{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.041,"endTime":3.425,"body":"So I had a interesting exchange on"},{"startTime":0.041,"endTime":3.425,"body":"LinkedIn and not, not interesting"},{"startTime":3.429,"endTime":5.341,"body":"in the way of, fighting with"},{"startTime":3.429,"endTime":5.341,"body":"people over the internet."},{"startTime":5.908,"endTime":6.075,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":6.075,"endTime":9.183,"body":"In the way of somebody said something"},{"startTime":6.075,"endTime":9.183,"body":"that I thought was particularly thoughtful"},{"startTime":9.308,"endTime":13.25,"body":"and I felt the need to respond to it"},{"startTime":9.308,"endTime":13.25,"body":"to say, Hey, that was particularly"},{"startTime":13.3,"endTime":16.521,"body":"thoughtful, and I will show the message"},{"startTime":13.3,"endTime":16.521,"body":"here on the screen next to me, and"},{"startTime":16.562,"endTime":18.937,"body":"for the people that are listening to"},{"startTime":16.562,"endTime":18.937,"body":"the audio version, I will read it."},{"startTime":19.096,"endTime":21.921,"body":"He's talking about , what his biggest"},{"startTime":19.096,"endTime":21.921,"body":"struggle as a technical leader is."},{"startTime":21.996,"endTime":25.646,"body":"He says, the biggest struggle is to"},{"startTime":21.996,"endTime":25.646,"body":"get the team to work synchronously"},{"startTime":25.821,"endTime":28.996,"body":"in real time, dealing with one issue"},{"startTime":25.821,"endTime":28.996,"body":"at a time, and striving to make"},{"startTime":29.021,"endTime":30.871,"body":"that issue as small as possible."},{"startTime":31.346,"endTime":36.821,"body":"I thought that was a great response"},{"startTime":31.346,"endTime":36.821,"body":"and I felt compelled to reply with"},{"startTime":36.879,"endTime":38.529,"body":"this is the true leadership answer."},{"startTime":38.779,"endTime":42.504,"body":"Getting people to focus on the top"},{"startTime":38.779,"endTime":42.504,"body":"problem and make larger progress."},{"startTime":42.504,"endTime":44.529,"body":"I don't know I don't know what"},{"startTime":42.504,"endTime":44.529,"body":"I larger, that makes no sense."},{"startTime":44.729,"endTime":48.604,"body":"And getting people to focus on the top"},{"startTime":44.729,"endTime":48.604,"body":"problem, make larger progress on fewer"},{"startTime":48.604,"endTime":52.704,"body":"items is the way to make real progress"},{"startTime":48.604,"endTime":52.704,"body":"as opposed to having a million things"},{"startTime":53.129,"endTime":56.046,"body":"in progress and being really busy."},{"startTime":56.729,"endTime":59.529,"body":"I'm a really busy person Om cuz I"},{"startTime":56.729,"endTime":59.529,"body":"have a million things in progress."},{"startTime":59.754,"endTime":60.129,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":60.129,"endTime":63.429,"body":"If you if business is how you're, you're"},{"startTime":60.129,"endTime":63.429,"body":"measured, then that's what you want."},{"startTime":63.754,"endTime":65.029,"body":"But yeah, this is a good topic."},{"startTime":65.029,"endTime":65.704,"body":"I like this topic."},{"startTime":65.819,"endTime":67.965,"body":"I feel if we're gonna talk"},{"startTime":65.819,"endTime":67.965,"body":"about leadership challenges,"},{"startTime":67.969,"endTime":69.069,"body":"this is a leadership challenge."},{"startTime":69.069,"endTime":74.969,"body":"I feel this podcast probably applies to"},{"startTime":69.069,"endTime":74.969,"body":"product people as much as it applies to"},{"startTime":75.269,"endTime":79.144,"body":"maybe senior developers or team leads"},{"startTime":75.269,"endTime":79.144,"body":"or people in that kind of position."},{"startTime":79.144,"endTime":81.861,"body":"Scrum Masters, I feel it would"},{"startTime":79.144,"endTime":81.861,"body":"strongly apply to like you're trying"},{"startTime":81.861,"endTime":85.265,"body":"to communicate to your team, Hey, it's"},{"startTime":81.861,"endTime":85.265,"body":"more important to get together and"},{"startTime":85.265,"endTime":87.065,"body":"finish the highest priority item first."},{"startTime":87.465,"endTime":91.165,"body":"And even if we're a little slower,"},{"startTime":87.465,"endTime":91.165,"body":"because there's many people working"},{"startTime":91.165,"endTime":96.04,"body":"on it, that's better because we're"},{"startTime":91.165,"endTime":96.04,"body":"turning in consistently done work."},{"startTime":97.115,"endTime":97.815,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":97.815,"endTime":100.802,"body":"I also think that maybe some product"},{"startTime":97.815,"endTime":100.802,"body":"owners could benefit from this as well,"},{"startTime":100.802,"endTime":103.377,"body":"because I've known some product owners"},{"startTime":100.802,"endTime":103.377,"body":"that just say yes to everything that"},{"startTime":103.377,"endTime":107.402,"body":"comes their way and, and stick it in"},{"startTime":103.377,"endTime":107.402,"body":"top of the backlog so this idea of."},{"startTime":108.265,"endTime":111.698,"body":"Leadership really saying, work on"},{"startTime":108.265,"endTime":111.698,"body":"this, work on this, work on this."},{"startTime":111.698,"endTime":113.848,"body":"And the teams are just"},{"startTime":111.698,"endTime":113.848,"body":"subservient and say, yes."},{"startTime":114.148,"endTime":116.523,"body":"That idea, I think we can"},{"startTime":114.148,"endTime":116.523,"body":"kind of explore a bit."},{"startTime":116.973,"endTime":118.923,"body":"What is the team working on"},{"startTime":116.973,"endTime":118.923,"body":"at a given point in time?"},{"startTime":118.923,"endTime":121.873,"body":"If you're sprinting in the sprint"},{"startTime":118.923,"endTime":121.873,"body":"what are they working on, right?"},{"startTime":121.923,"endTime":124.848,"body":"Uh, they're working on the highest"},{"startTime":121.923,"endTime":124.848,"body":"priority items that they believe"},{"startTime":124.848,"endTime":128.023,"body":"can be finished in the sprint, then"},{"startTime":124.848,"endTime":128.023,"body":"they should just be working on that."},{"startTime":128.223,"endTime":132.523,"body":"But along come somebody leadership"},{"startTime":128.223,"endTime":132.523,"body":"perhaps says, work on this now, right"},{"startTime":132.523,"endTime":134.348,"body":"now, because this is priority one."},{"startTime":134.873,"endTime":136.982,"body":"And how many priority ones can you have?"},{"startTime":137.198,"endTime":141.798,"body":"the, Hey, I'm gonna stop working on"},{"startTime":137.198,"endTime":141.798,"body":"what I'm working on just because you"},{"startTime":141.798,"endTime":143.723,"body":"asked me is a little bit like that."},{"startTime":143.727,"endTime":147.223,"body":"The order taker team and team members"},{"startTime":143.727,"endTime":147.223,"body":"is a little bit different than the"},{"startTime":147.223,"endTime":149.448,"body":"organization where everything's"},{"startTime":147.223,"endTime":149.448,"body":"always priority one all the time."},{"startTime":150.048,"endTime":152.098,"body":"A little bit different,"},{"startTime":150.048,"endTime":152.098,"body":"but it is different."},{"startTime":152.098,"endTime":152.648,"body":"It is different."},{"startTime":152.673,"endTime":152.773,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":152.773,"endTime":155.173,"body":"So let's just take the other"},{"startTime":152.773,"endTime":155.173,"body":"angle, the opposite angle."},{"startTime":155.473,"endTime":155.998,"body":"Why not?"},{"startTime":155.998,"endTime":159.457,"body":"I mean, after all leadership"},{"startTime":155.998,"endTime":159.457,"body":"saying, do this, let's do that."},{"startTime":159.457,"endTime":161.882,"body":"If the developer manager says,"},{"startTime":159.457,"endTime":161.882,"body":"now do this, let's do that."},{"startTime":161.957,"endTime":164.532,"body":"And if we don't finish, it doesn't"},{"startTime":161.957,"endTime":164.532,"body":"matter because they told us to change."},{"startTime":164.882,"endTime":168.082,"body":"So we could say, well, we're working on"},{"startTime":164.882,"endTime":168.082,"body":"that, and then you change direction on us."},{"startTime":168.132,"endTime":168.282,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":168.532,"endTime":171.307,"body":"So that's why we're delayed,"},{"startTime":168.532,"endTime":171.307,"body":"not finished, et cetera."},{"startTime":171.757,"endTime":174.207,"body":"But is that really helping"},{"startTime":171.757,"endTime":174.207,"body":"the organization as a whole?"},{"startTime":174.232,"endTime":174.507,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":174.682,"endTime":177.957,"body":"If you imagine that behavior happening"},{"startTime":174.682,"endTime":177.957,"body":"on multiple teams, what does that look"},{"startTime":177.957,"endTime":180.015,"body":"like at the, uh at the org level, right?"},{"startTime":180.019,"endTime":182.969,"body":"People have always got the"},{"startTime":180.019,"endTime":182.969,"body":"irons in the fire, right?"},{"startTime":182.969,"endTime":186.119,"body":"So they've always got things they"},{"startTime":182.969,"endTime":186.119,"body":"started, but not a lot of those are"},{"startTime":186.119,"endTime":187.269,"body":"finished cuz they keep starting."},{"startTime":187.394,"endTime":187.594,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":188.369,"endTime":188.594,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":189.569,"endTime":193.094,"body":"Well that, that right there is the,"},{"startTime":189.569,"endTime":193.094,"body":"the crux of many, many problems is"},{"startTime":193.136,"endTime":197.669,"body":"your organizational culture values"},{"startTime":193.136,"endTime":197.669,"body":"the people being busy all the time"},{"startTime":197.819,"endTime":199.994,"body":"and having no, no breaks, no whatever."},{"startTime":200.307,"endTime":200.732,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":200.773,"endTime":204.582,"body":"the people who are working on the weekends"},{"startTime":200.773,"endTime":204.582,"body":"and, you know what I mean?, they're on at"},{"startTime":204.682,"endTime":205.957,"body":"whatever, 11 o'clock at night or whatever."},{"startTime":206.157,"endTime":208.232,"body":"They're the most valued people"},{"startTime":206.157,"endTime":208.232,"body":"in the organization they're not"},{"startTime":208.232,"endTime":209.307,"body":"necessarily the most productive."},{"startTime":210.357,"endTime":211.182,"body":"No, that's right."},{"startTime":211.532,"endTime":213.623,"body":"You know, but they have, they"},{"startTime":211.532,"endTime":213.623,"body":"have the most balls in the air."},{"startTime":214.398,"endTime":215.873,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":215.873,"endTime":218.369,"body":"So how would , how would the"},{"startTime":215.873,"endTime":218.369,"body":"Egyptians built the pyramids"},{"startTime":218.369,"endTime":219.369,"body":"if they just kept starting?"},{"startTime":219.544,"endTime":222.469,"body":"They wouldn't have finished anything"},{"startTime":219.544,"endTime":222.469,"body":"but they did, and they, they did"},{"startTime":222.469,"endTime":226.886,"body":"some amazing things by finishing"},{"startTime":222.469,"endTime":226.886,"body":"one task that was at hand bring"},{"startTime":226.886,"endTime":228.336,"body":"the stones and establish a flow."},{"startTime":228.694,"endTime":231.194,"body":"They had worked it out, basically,"},{"startTime":228.694,"endTime":231.194,"body":"you couldn't get the stones into"},{"startTime":231.194,"endTime":234.244,"body":"the, onto the site too quickly"},{"startTime":231.194,"endTime":234.244,"body":"because they get in the way."},{"startTime":234.248,"endTime":234.436,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":234.502,"endTime":236.744,"body":", it's that inventory issue excess"},{"startTime":234.502,"endTime":236.744,"body":"inventory as we know it today."},{"startTime":236.819,"endTime":236.894,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":237.194,"endTime":240.927,"body":"They'd figured that out by making sure"},{"startTime":237.194,"endTime":240.927,"body":"that people finish what they're on"},{"startTime":241.311,"endTime":241.361,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":241.436,"endTime":243.711,"body":"So those that are rolling the"},{"startTime":241.436,"endTime":243.711,"body":"stones in, finish that before"},{"startTime":243.711,"endTime":244.761,"body":"they do something else, right?"},{"startTime":244.911,"endTime":247.715,"body":"Those that are moving the stones up"},{"startTime":244.911,"endTime":247.715,"body":"up on the next level, so to speak."},{"startTime":248.14,"endTime":248.765,"body":"They finish that"},{"startTime":249.473,"endTime":250.573,"body":"why is this a problem though?"},{"startTime":250.573,"endTime":255.665,"body":"Have we seen any glaring"},{"startTime":250.573,"endTime":255.665,"body":"symptoms, why this is a problem?"},{"startTime":256.74,"endTime":260.015,"body":"I just wanna tackle the problem statement"},{"startTime":256.74,"endTime":260.015,"body":"and then kind of break it down a bit."},{"startTime":261.49,"endTime":263.865,"body":"What I think that's a, oh boy."},{"startTime":263.89,"endTime":265.54,"body":"Like, that's a very"},{"startTime":263.89,"endTime":265.54,"body":"difficult question to answer."},{"startTime":265.54,"endTime":273.64,"body":"Like why, why do you get a culture that"},{"startTime":265.54,"endTime":273.64,"body":"is obsessed with starting things and not"},{"startTime":273.64,"endTime":276.715,"body":"obsessed with finishing things like that,"},{"startTime":273.64,"endTime":276.715,"body":"you would think, and you would think that"},{"startTime":276.715,"endTime":279.565,"body":"like corporate structures would actually"},{"startTime":276.715,"endTime":279.565,"body":"be better at this than anyone else."},{"startTime":280.027,"endTime":283.452,"body":"They should be obsessed with finishing"},{"startTime":280.027,"endTime":283.452,"body":"things rather than saying, oh, look"},{"startTime":283.452,"endTime":284.777,"body":"at all the things I've started."},{"startTime":285.102,"endTime":285.377,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":285.402,"endTime":285.852,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":286.027,"endTime":288.277,"body":"Like I feel, I feel there, there"},{"startTime":286.027,"endTime":288.277,"body":"are a couple sides to this."},{"startTime":288.927,"endTime":292.877,"body":"The obvious one for me is to"},{"startTime":288.927,"endTime":292.877,"body":"point out incentives, right?"},{"startTime":292.882,"endTime":296.077,"body":"That's the obvious one is the person"},{"startTime":292.882,"endTime":296.077,"body":"who says like, oh, I need to start"},{"startTime":296.077,"endTime":298.627,"body":"all these things and every single"},{"startTime":296.077,"endTime":298.627,"body":"different initiative I need a new"},{"startTime":298.632,"endTime":301.802,"body":"team for, and my incentives are all"},{"startTime":298.632,"endTime":301.802,"body":"based on how many people work for me."},{"startTime":301.802,"endTime":302.977,"body":"Go government gets this way."},{"startTime":303.023,"endTime":306.973,"body":"The number of people you manage means"},{"startTime":303.023,"endTime":306.973,"body":"that you, you must be a good manager"},{"startTime":306.998,"endTime":308.148,"body":"cause you're managing so many people."},{"startTime":308.773,"endTime":309.023,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":309.023,"endTime":313.173,"body":"And it's an indicator or even a measur"},{"startTime":309.023,"endTime":313.173,"body":"in some companies of seniority, right?"},{"startTime":313.173,"endTime":313.323,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":313.323,"endTime":316.723,"body":"The, the higher up the ladder you go,"},{"startTime":313.323,"endTime":316.723,"body":"the more people you manage, right?"},{"startTime":317.373,"endTime":318.973,"body":"So that, that's part of the issue as well."},{"startTime":318.973,"endTime":319.398,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":319.532,"endTime":321.898,"body":"The, the other thing is"},{"startTime":319.532,"endTime":321.898,"body":"the structure itself."},{"startTime":321.948,"endTime":325.448,"body":"So if you have a matrix structure"},{"startTime":321.948,"endTime":325.448,"body":"where people are basically working."},{"startTime":327.073,"endTime":329.473,"body":"For certain individuals, but"},{"startTime":327.073,"endTime":329.473,"body":"they're working on a team that's"},{"startTime":329.515,"endTime":331.94,"body":"that they're not reporting to"},{"startTime":329.515,"endTime":331.94,"body":"that individual for necessarily."},{"startTime":331.99,"endTime":332.14,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":332.54,"endTime":334.165,"body":"Then they have divided loyalty, right?"},{"startTime":334.165,"endTime":338.265,"body":"Are, their loyalty is split between"},{"startTime":334.165,"endTime":338.265,"body":"the team and also between the manager,"},{"startTime":338.99,"endTime":342.54,"body":"hierarchical manager, who is likely to"},{"startTime":338.99,"endTime":342.54,"body":"say to them, what are you working on?"},{"startTime":342.59,"endTime":345.39,"body":"Drop that work on this next because"},{"startTime":342.59,"endTime":345.39,"body":"I feel the pressure for, for moving"},{"startTime":345.39,"endTime":349.498,"body":"this along so I think the structure"},{"startTime":345.39,"endTime":349.498,"body":"also encourages this, right?"},{"startTime":349.498,"endTime":349.632,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":349.698,"endTime":351.457,"body":", this idea of starting and not finishing."},{"startTime":351.607,"endTime":353.007,"body":"Well, let's dissect that for a second."},{"startTime":353.157,"endTime":353.407,"body":"Oh, geez."},{"startTime":353.532,"endTime":354.057,"body":"I'm so shiny."},{"startTime":354.282,"endTime":358.782,"body":"Like, let, let's dissect the, hang on,"},{"startTime":354.282,"endTime":358.782,"body":"let me try not to be shiny . So, sorry."},{"startTime":359.115,"endTime":360.965,"body":"Since we're talking about"},{"startTime":359.115,"endTime":360.965,"body":"leadership here for a second."},{"startTime":360.965,"endTime":363.84,"body":"we're, we're focusing on this"},{"startTime":360.965,"endTime":363.84,"body":"stuff being a leadership problem."},{"startTime":364.265,"endTime":365.998,"body":"Let's talk about the."},{"startTime":367.79,"endTime":369.115,"body":"Shifting priorities."},{"startTime":369.232,"endTime":372.582,"body":"Like sometimes when I talk about like"},{"startTime":369.232,"endTime":372.582,"body":"scrum teams that wanna move toban because"},{"startTime":372.632,"endTime":375.527,"body":"things are too chaotic, they can't oh, two"},{"startTime":372.632,"endTime":375.527,"body":"weeks is too long of an increment for me."},{"startTime":375.527,"endTime":375.877,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":375.877,"endTime":378.427,"body":"Like I, I get pulled every couple"},{"startTime":375.877,"endTime":378.427,"body":"days or whatever to do a radically"},{"startTime":378.427,"endTime":380.227,"body":"different thing and my backlog"},{"startTime":378.427,"endTime":380.227,"body":"gets thrown out of whatever."},{"startTime":380.227,"endTime":384.527,"body":"Like, oh, well your environment is just"},{"startTime":380.227,"endTime":384.527,"body":"really chaotic because your leadership"},{"startTime":384.532,"endTime":386.427,"body":"just can't decide what the priorities are."},{"startTime":386.477,"endTime":387.402,"body":"That's a whole different symptom."},{"startTime":387.577,"endTime":390.452,"body":"Let's talk about that symptom for a"},{"startTime":387.577,"endTime":390.452,"body":"second, because like, kind of what"},{"startTime":390.452,"endTime":392.752,"body":"we're talking about is like, oh, well"},{"startTime":390.452,"endTime":392.752,"body":"my development lead interrupts me,"},{"startTime":392.757,"endTime":395.952,"body":"or my CTO interrupts me, or whoever,"},{"startTime":392.757,"endTime":395.952,"body":"somebody in the organization interrupts"},{"startTime":395.952,"endTime":399.577,"body":"you and says, Hey, stop, drop everything"},{"startTime":395.952,"endTime":399.577,"body":"you're working on and go fix this, or"},{"startTime":399.577,"endTime":402.252,"body":"go implement this, or go solve this,"},{"startTime":399.577,"endTime":402.252,"body":"or whatever this customer's screaming."},{"startTime":402.619,"endTime":405.894,"body":"that I'll call it what it is just"},{"startTime":402.619,"endTime":405.894,"body":"so we can start on the right foot."},{"startTime":406.069,"endTime":410.244,"body":"That leadership problem has to"},{"startTime":406.069,"endTime":410.244,"body":"do with a certain set of things"},{"startTime":410.244,"endTime":411.494,"body":"happening in the organization."},{"startTime":411.969,"endTime":416.169,"body":"If you're listening to this podcast"},{"startTime":411.969,"endTime":416.169,"body":"and that is your problem first"},{"startTime":416.169,"endTime":417.969,"body":"of all, no there's very little"},{"startTime":416.169,"endTime":417.969,"body":"you're gonna be able to do with it."},{"startTime":418.119,"endTime":421.152,"body":"Like leadership is the issue you"},{"startTime":418.119,"endTime":421.152,"body":"gotta move the prioritization"},{"startTime":421.452,"endTime":422.427,"body":"up to the leadership level."},{"startTime":423.502,"endTime":425.877,"body":"Product managers normally"},{"startTime":423.502,"endTime":425.877,"body":"are the people that should be"},{"startTime":426.152,"endTime":427.302,"body":"dealing with it at that level."},{"startTime":427.344,"endTime":428.094,"body":"I agree with you, right?"},{"startTime":428.098,"endTime":429.069,"body":"That that's where it belongs."},{"startTime":429.069,"endTime":430.044,"body":"They have to prioritize."},{"startTime":430.269,"endTime":431.444,"body":"We can help though, right?"},{"startTime":431.444,"endTime":434.819,"body":"We can help them understand the"},{"startTime":431.444,"endTime":434.819,"body":"impact of dropping something"},{"startTime":434.819,"endTime":435.994,"body":"and picking something else up."},{"startTime":436.044,"endTime":438.061,"body":"Yeah I feel like teams"},{"startTime":436.044,"endTime":438.061,"body":"don't do that enough."},{"startTime":438.086,"endTime":438.786,"body":"They, they simply."},{"startTime":439.686,"endTime":439.836,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":439.986,"endTime":440.436,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":440.511,"endTime":441.061,"body":"Throw it out."},{"startTime":441.061,"endTime":441.636,"body":"I'll work on this."},{"startTime":441.636,"endTime":442.611,"body":"I guess you're telling me this."},{"startTime":442.711,"endTime":442.861,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":443.261,"endTime":448.069,"body":"What if we said to the requester, yeah,"},{"startTime":443.261,"endTime":448.069,"body":"we can do that, but here's the opportunity"},{"startTime":448.069,"endTime":449.244,"body":"cost of dropping what we're doing."},{"startTime":449.319,"endTime":450.194,"body":"We can pick it up again."},{"startTime":450.369,"endTime":453.694,"body":"But because of context switching,"},{"startTime":450.369,"endTime":453.694,"body":"et cetera, this will not now get"},{"startTime":453.694,"endTime":456.094,"body":"done in the time we originally"},{"startTime":453.694,"endTime":456.094,"body":"said or thought it would get done."},{"startTime":456.098,"endTime":456.944,"body":"And it would take longer."},{"startTime":457.394,"endTime":459.544,"body":"And if that's okay, then fine."},{"startTime":459.719,"endTime":462.869,"body":"so I think that we can help move"},{"startTime":459.719,"endTime":462.869,"body":"that conversation along with"},{"startTime":462.869,"endTime":464.344,"body":"leadership so they understand fully."},{"startTime":464.619,"endTime":468.394,"body":"It's not gonna go anywhere if"},{"startTime":464.619,"endTime":468.394,"body":"you've got multiple leaders making"},{"startTime":468.394,"endTime":470.294,"body":"multiple asks of the team Right."},{"startTime":470.469,"endTime":471.494,"body":"Saying work on my stuff."},{"startTime":471.794,"endTime":473.519,"body":"Yeah and somebody else"},{"startTime":471.794,"endTime":473.519,"body":"doing the same thing."},{"startTime":473.569,"endTime":473.744,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":473.819,"endTime":476.415,"body":"Along comes somebody even higher"},{"startTime":473.819,"endTime":476.415,"body":"and says, Hey we gotta get ready for"},{"startTime":476.415,"endTime":477.79,"body":"this conference work on that stuff."},{"startTime":477.84,"endTime":477.99,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":478.39,"endTime":481.34,"body":"That gets difficult I think if it's"},{"startTime":478.39,"endTime":481.34,"body":"happening frequent enough, one of the"},{"startTime":481.34,"endTime":483.307,"body":"things you could think about is maybe."},{"startTime":483.865,"endTime":486.89,"body":"Just have a team that works on that,"},{"startTime":483.865,"endTime":486.89,"body":"a small team that just does that,"},{"startTime":486.94,"endTime":488.54,"body":"putting out fires and things like that."},{"startTime":488.615,"endTime":488.74,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":488.94,"endTime":492.823,"body":"And then you have your the quintessential"},{"startTime":488.94,"endTime":492.823,"body":"development team can be heads down"},{"startTime":492.827,"endTime":494.773,"body":"focused on doing development work."},{"startTime":495.248,"endTime":495.373,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":495.377,"endTime":498.948,"body":"But that, that requires at some point"},{"startTime":495.377,"endTime":498.948,"body":"again, requires leadership to step"},{"startTime":498.948,"endTime":503.215,"body":"in tos to segment things so that a"},{"startTime":498.948,"endTime":503.215,"body":"certain amount, a certain amount of"},{"startTime":503.215,"endTime":505.44,"body":"flow or certain type of flow can happen."},{"startTime":505.865,"endTime":507.99,"body":"Basically just to separate the"},{"startTime":505.865,"endTime":507.99,"body":"chaos from the rest of your team."},{"startTime":507.99,"endTime":511.39,"body":"So like you have your chaos"},{"startTime":507.99,"endTime":511.39,"body":"team  over here, and you have"},{"startTime":511.39,"endTime":512.815,"body":"your stable teams over here."},{"startTime":513.14,"endTime":514.99,"body":"Like it depends on the environment,"},{"startTime":513.14,"endTime":514.99,"body":"it depends on the technology."},{"startTime":514.99,"endTime":518.49,"body":"There's a lot of stuff it depends on,"},{"startTime":514.99,"endTime":518.49,"body":"so like, I, I hate to say it depends."},{"startTime":518.49,"endTime":520.815,"body":"And just like, I'll write you a"},{"startTime":518.49,"endTime":520.815,"body":"check and the check says it depends."},{"startTime":520.815,"endTime":521.657,"body":"And  that's the end of my help."},{"startTime":521.657,"endTime":523.307,"body":"For anyone listening that"},{"startTime":521.657,"endTime":523.307,"body":"may have found this podcast"},{"startTime":523.698,"endTime":527.298,"body":"the helpful thing there is that"},{"startTime":523.698,"endTime":527.298,"body":"everyone's work becomes transparent"},{"startTime":527.498,"endTime":530.998,"body":"and the backlog that is getting shifted"},{"startTime":527.498,"endTime":530.998,"body":"in priorities becomes transparent."},{"startTime":531.023,"endTime":531.223,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":531.348,"endTime":535.515,"body":"So if, if you, I was once in an"},{"startTime":531.348,"endTime":535.515,"body":"organization where the product managers,"},{"startTime":535.69,"endTime":541.332,"body":"the, the PMs, their, they, they had"},{"startTime":535.69,"endTime":541.332,"body":"a very finite list of things that"},{"startTime":541.336,"endTime":544.415,"body":"they wanted to get done in I think we"},{"startTime":541.336,"endTime":544.415,"body":"were using Azure DevOps in that shop."},{"startTime":545.04,"endTime":547.59,"body":"But anyway, that doesn't matter"},{"startTime":545.04,"endTime":547.59,"body":"what the tool was, but they had a"},{"startTime":547.594,"endTime":551.69,"body":"very finite list, like maybe like"},{"startTime":547.594,"endTime":551.69,"body":"two sprints ahead in the tool."},{"startTime":551.865,"endTime":552.015,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":552.215,"endTime":553.54,"body":"of like stories and epics and stuff."},{"startTime":554.577,"endTime":558.702,"body":"But then they had a spreadsheet that"},{"startTime":554.577,"endTime":558.702,"body":"went out, like months of stuff that"},{"startTime":558.702,"endTime":559.877,"body":"they knew that they were gonna bring in."},{"startTime":559.902,"endTime":563.177,"body":"They knew there, it wasn't even like a"},{"startTime":559.902,"endTime":563.177,"body":"spreadsheet of like, my discovery work is"},{"startTime":563.177,"endTime":565.902,"body":"kept outside of the system and when I'm"},{"startTime":563.177,"endTime":565.902,"body":"talking to customers and about things I"},{"startTime":565.907,"endTime":567.177,"body":"can do or whatever, I keep that separate."},{"startTime":567.227,"endTime":569.752,"body":"And then when we get to a certain point"},{"startTime":567.227,"endTime":569.752,"body":"in the funnel, I bring it into the system."},{"startTime":569.752,"endTime":570.427,"body":"It was like, no, no, no."},{"startTime":570.577,"endTime":571.777,"body":"They knew they were gonna do that."},{"startTime":571.877,"endTime":574.052,"body":"I mean, they had stuff staged,"},{"startTime":571.877,"endTime":574.052,"body":"it wasn't quite a Gant chart."},{"startTime":574.227,"endTime":577.302,"body":"It really was like a list with priorities"},{"startTime":574.227,"endTime":577.302,"body":"and they'd move stuff around or whatever."},{"startTime":577.802,"endTime":580.302,"body":"But the point was they weren't using"},{"startTime":577.802,"endTime":580.302,"body":"the tool that the development teams and"},{"startTime":580.302,"endTime":582.752,"body":"stuff were using, they were using just"},{"startTime":580.302,"endTime":582.752,"body":"a spreadsheet on their, on their laptop."},{"startTime":583.202,"endTime":583.527,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":583.677,"endTime":586.352,"body":"It wasn't even a shared spreadsheet"},{"startTime":583.677,"endTime":586.352,"body":"between PMs that they talked about"},{"startTime":586.352,"endTime":587.427,"body":"when the PMs met or whatever."},{"startTime":587.652,"endTime":591.319,"body":"It truly was as bad as I'm describing"},{"startTime":587.652,"endTime":591.319,"body":"it so, so what I'm, what I'm saying"},{"startTime":591.319,"endTime":594.294,"body":"is it it, you could go a long way."},{"startTime":594.636,"endTime":598.686,"body":"Toward easing the, the churn, I don't"},{"startTime":594.636,"endTime":598.686,"body":"know a better way to a better term,"},{"startTime":599.061,"endTime":601.611,"body":"toward easing the churn of like, oh,"},{"startTime":599.061,"endTime":601.611,"body":"stop working on this work on this."},{"startTime":601.611,"endTime":603.111,"body":"Oh, oh, that, that's not"},{"startTime":601.611,"endTime":603.111,"body":"the top priority anymore."},{"startTime":603.111,"endTime":606.294,"body":"This is a new priority, you can go a"},{"startTime":603.111,"endTime":606.294,"body":"long way towards that if you just make"},{"startTime":606.644,"endTime":610.269,"body":"the things that are in the pipeline"},{"startTime":606.644,"endTime":610.269,"body":"transparent to everyone, right?"},{"startTime":610.294,"endTime":610.419,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":610.494,"endTime":612.194,"body":"Especially transparent to the"},{"startTime":610.494,"endTime":612.194,"body":"people who are about to work on it."},{"startTime":612.544,"endTime":616.469,"body":"But, but to be fair, transparent to anyone"},{"startTime":612.544,"endTime":616.469,"body":"who wants to come look at it, right?"},{"startTime":616.469,"endTime":619.044,"body":"If anyone wanders into your"},{"startTime":616.469,"endTime":619.044,"body":"dashboard, there it is."},{"startTime":619.069,"endTime":620.244,"body":"I mean, that, that's the"},{"startTime":619.069,"endTime":620.244,"body":"stuff we're working on."},{"startTime":620.244,"endTime":622.061,"body":"I'm not trying to hide"},{"startTime":620.244,"endTime":622.061,"body":"anything, make it transparent."},{"startTime":622.061,"endTime":622.711,"body":"I think that's step one."},{"startTime":623.044,"endTime":624.119,"body":"I fully agree with that."},{"startTime":624.119,"endTime":627.511,"body":"And as some teams will say, well"},{"startTime":624.119,"endTime":627.511,"body":"these wild ideas that people have,"},{"startTime":627.511,"endTime":628.636,"body":"we put 'em all in our backlog."},{"startTime":628.836,"endTime":628.911,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":628.915,"endTime":632.086,"body":"Our backlog's gonna be very, very deep"},{"startTime":628.915,"endTime":632.086,"body":"and we don't want that like hundreds"},{"startTime":632.086,"endTime":633.036,"body":"or hundreds and hundreds of items."},{"startTime":633.486,"endTime":635.311,"body":"Well, that problem's"},{"startTime":633.486,"endTime":635.311,"body":"easy to solve too, right?"},{"startTime":635.311,"endTime":637.711,"body":"Don't put 'em directly in the backlog,"},{"startTime":635.311,"endTime":637.711,"body":"like you said, put on a dashboard,"},{"startTime":637.836,"endTime":639.657,"body":"put in a different, area, right?"},{"startTime":640.415,"endTime":641.382,"body":"Microsoft uses area paths."},{"startTime":641.382,"endTime":645.082,"body":"There's other ways to do this, but"},{"startTime":641.382,"endTime":645.082,"body":"yes, the bottom line is it should"},{"startTime":645.086,"endTime":647.182,"body":"be visible because who knows?"},{"startTime":647.223,"endTime":650.898,"body":"maybe somebody on the team when they're"},{"startTime":647.223,"endTime":650.898,"body":"looking at this stuff could say, wait,"},{"startTime":650.898,"endTime":653.723,"body":"we can't do this cuz we need this other"},{"startTime":650.898,"endTime":653.723,"body":"thing done first before it comes up."},{"startTime":653.798,"endTime":655.357,"body":"Well, vice versa we're doing this."},{"startTime":655.357,"endTime":658.915,"body":"If we changed it in a way that allows"},{"startTime":655.357,"endTime":658.915,"body":"us to , get to a point we deliver"},{"startTime":658.915,"endTime":660.04,"body":"this something else that's down there."},{"startTime":660.065,"endTime":660.34,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":660.49,"endTime":663.39,"body":"So communication obviously becomes"},{"startTime":660.49,"endTime":663.39,"body":"important at that stage cuz they"},{"startTime":663.39,"endTime":664.49,"body":"could raise that concern, right?"},{"startTime":664.494,"endTime":665.765,"body":"But they can't do any of"},{"startTime":664.494,"endTime":665.765,"body":"that if they don't see it."},{"startTime":665.769,"endTime":668.54,"body":"So it has to be visible the other"},{"startTime":665.769,"endTime":668.54,"body":"thing that happens when it's visible"},{"startTime":668.54,"endTime":669.79,"body":"is everything's in one place."},{"startTime":669.965,"endTime":670.04,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":670.09,"endTime":675.64,"body":"You have one certain visible radiator"},{"startTime":670.09,"endTime":675.64,"body":"where everything is displayed, so you're"},{"startTime":675.64,"endTime":678.54,"body":"not left thinking, well, I understand"},{"startTime":675.64,"endTime":678.54,"body":"this person who has the loudest voice."},{"startTime":678.615,"endTime":679.515,"body":"They have their spreadsheet."},{"startTime":679.74,"endTime":680.84,"body":"What about these other people?"},{"startTime":680.89,"endTime":681.39,"body":"Higher ranked?"},{"startTime":681.39,"endTime":683.09,"body":"Maybe they may have"},{"startTime":681.39,"endTime":683.09,"body":"their own spreadsheets."},{"startTime":683.165,"endTime":684.24,"body":"You don't have any of that going on."},{"startTime":684.24,"endTime":684.315,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":684.515,"endTime":685.54,"body":", it's in one place."},{"startTime":685.565,"endTime":685.69,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":685.89,"endTime":687.04,"body":"That is step number one."},{"startTime":687.108,"endTime":690.617,"body":"If I had an organization that was"},{"startTime":687.108,"endTime":690.617,"body":"transforming or doing whatever or"},{"startTime":690.621,"endTime":692.442,"body":"whatever merge or what you mean, whatever."},{"startTime":692.867,"endTime":696.292,"body":"Let's say for example that we we, we"},{"startTime":692.867,"endTime":696.292,"body":"owned like Brian and Om's software"},{"startTime":696.292,"endTime":699.617,"body":"development company and we were the"},{"startTime":696.292,"endTime":699.617,"body":"most, like all of our processes were"},{"startTime":699.617,"endTime":702.546,"body":"all streamlined or whatever, and we"},{"startTime":699.617,"endTime":702.546,"body":"were like a a hundred person company"},{"startTime":702.746,"endTime":705.421,"body":"and then we bought another a hundred"},{"startTime":702.746,"endTime":705.421,"body":"person company, merge it with ours."},{"startTime":705.671,"endTime":709.421,"body":"Like I, I would want, I, as leadership,"},{"startTime":705.671,"endTime":709.421,"body":"I would say I want to deploy my"},{"startTime":709.421,"endTime":712.371,"body":"enterprise Agile coach to the other"},{"startTime":709.421,"endTime":712.371,"body":"environment to help them understand"},{"startTime":712.371,"endTime":713.746,"body":"like, this is the way that we work."},{"startTime":713.996,"endTime":714.296,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":714.321,"endTime":719.946,"body":"And, and the way, and, and I'm doing"},{"startTime":714.321,"endTime":719.946,"body":"that to help them be more productive now."},{"startTime":719.95,"endTime":722.196,"body":"And now I'm going to use those terms,"},{"startTime":719.95,"endTime":722.196,"body":"which I normally will steer away"},{"startTime":722.196,"endTime":723.796,"body":"from using right to, to be more."},{"startTime":724.096,"endTime":727.371,"body":"Efficient and that like the terms that I"},{"startTime":724.096,"endTime":727.371,"body":"will try not to talk about, cuz they they"},{"startTime":727.371,"endTime":729.896,"body":"could be dirty words and a lot of people"},{"startTime":727.371,"endTime":729.896,"body":"in as a community be like, oh, you're"},{"startTime":730.421,"endTime":732.696,"body":"talk about being efficient when you're"},{"startTime":730.421,"endTime":732.696,"body":"not if you're effective or whatever."},{"startTime":732.696,"endTime":736.521,"body":"But the point is like, I want"},{"startTime":732.696,"endTime":736.521,"body":"their development teams to be as"},{"startTime":736.571,"endTime":738.996,"body":"efficient as my development teams"},{"startTime":739.056,"endTime":742.227,"body":"I wanna be assured as the leader"},{"startTime":739.056,"endTime":742.227,"body":"in, in the organization that when I,"},{"startTime":742.277,"endTime":744.885,"body":"when I hand an initiative down and"},{"startTime":742.277,"endTime":744.885,"body":"I say, I want to increase usage of"},{"startTime":744.885,"endTime":747.01,"body":"my mobile app by 20% by the users."},{"startTime":747.21,"endTime":750.077,"body":"I hand that down as a"},{"startTime":747.21,"endTime":750.077,"body":"business goal, right."},{"startTime":750.202,"endTime":751.052,"body":"From the business goal."},{"startTime":751.202,"endTime":753.777,"body":"Developers pull down and say, oh, we"},{"startTime":751.202,"endTime":753.777,"body":"might do this, we might do this, we might"},{"startTime":753.777,"endTime":755.293,"body":"do this my product managers pull it in."},{"startTime":755.368,"endTime":755.518,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":755.743,"endTime":758.293,"body":"Decide what they wanna do talk to"},{"startTime":755.743,"endTime":758.293,"body":"the development teams, try different"},{"startTime":758.293,"endTime":760.927,"body":"things, figure out what they're"},{"startTime":758.293,"endTime":760.927,"body":"gonna do so I think of what the topic"},{"startTime":760.927,"endTime":763.627,"body":"we're talking about, this leadership"},{"startTime":760.927,"endTime":763.627,"body":"problem of you gotta stop starting"},{"startTime":763.627,"endTime":764.677,"body":"things and start finishing things."},{"startTime":764.977,"endTime":767.477,"body":"The idea is, well maybe these guys"},{"startTime":764.977,"endTime":767.477,"body":"have a couple development teams, maybe"},{"startTime":767.477,"endTime":768.602,"body":"have two, three development teams,"},{"startTime":768.693,"endTime":770.768,"body":"so the idea is, oh, they get the thing"},{"startTime":768.693,"endTime":770.768,"body":"and they're like, okay, well there's,"},{"startTime":770.768,"endTime":771.893,"body":"we have three development teams."},{"startTime":772.043,"endTime":773.768,"body":"Each team is whatever, five, eight people."},{"startTime":774.293,"endTime":776.943,"body":"We're taking your business initiative"},{"startTime":774.293,"endTime":776.943,"body":"and we're just gonna give it to developer"},{"startTime":777.068,"endTime":779.868,"body":"Bob, one guy, oh, he's working on it."},{"startTime":780.418,"endTime":781.643,"body":"We don't know what's happening with that."},{"startTime":781.843,"endTime":783.543,"body":"We can't do anything until he's done."},{"startTime":783.743,"endTime":783.893,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":783.893,"endTime":788.093,"body":"Like a, as leadership In that"},{"startTime":783.893,"endTime":788.093,"body":"example, I would be super frustrated."},{"startTime":788.118,"endTime":791.802,"body":"I'd be like, I, I told you"},{"startTime":788.118,"endTime":791.802,"body":"this is my number one priority."},{"startTime":791.993,"endTime":793.768,"body":"I want more eyeballs in my mobile app."},{"startTime":793.993,"endTime":796.893,"body":"And out of the 15 people, across the"},{"startTime":793.993,"endTime":796.893,"body":"three team, three development teams,"},{"startTime":797.168,"endTime":799.043,"body":"only one person is working on this."},{"startTime":799.168,"endTime":799.968,"body":"It seems like you."},{"startTime":800.593,"endTime":802.243,"body":"Are not taking my request seriously."},{"startTime":802.668,"endTime":805.193,"body":"Seems like you're not taking the"},{"startTime":802.668,"endTime":805.193,"body":"goals that I'm setting as leadership."},{"startTime":805.318,"endTime":808.852,"body":"Seriously, and . First of all, I have"},{"startTime":805.318,"endTime":808.852,"body":"been in shops where leadership addresses"},{"startTime":808.856,"endTime":811.427,"body":"the team that way as leadership, I"},{"startTime":808.856,"endTime":811.427,"body":"would never address the team that way."},{"startTime":811.577,"endTime":815.227,"body":"But my point being is as leadership,"},{"startTime":811.577,"endTime":815.227,"body":"that's, that's the way I would feel if"},{"startTime":815.435,"endTime":819.602,"body":"I found out that, oh, we just handed"},{"startTime":815.435,"endTime":819.602,"body":"it off this one person and now it's his"},{"startTime":819.602,"endTime":821.277,"body":"or her responsibility to figure it out."},{"startTime":821.302,"endTime":823.227,"body":"Yeah, I mean, there, there are"},{"startTime":821.302,"endTime":823.227,"body":"so many things there, right?"},{"startTime":823.231,"endTime":828.252,"body":"So not only is the team not really"},{"startTime":823.231,"endTime":828.252,"body":"abiding by the urgency, I guess, or the"},{"startTime":828.256,"endTime":830.252,"body":"relevancy of, of that request, right?"},{"startTime":830.252,"endTime":831.552,"body":"You've got one person"},{"startTime":830.252,"endTime":831.552,"body":"working on it, right?"},{"startTime":831.602,"endTime":833.002,"body":"One person who may or may."},{"startTime":833.593,"endTime":835.077,"body":"Work the whole sprint if you're sprinting."},{"startTime":835.227,"endTime":835.402,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":835.402,"endTime":838.352,"body":"And maybe they're, they're off for"},{"startTime":835.402,"endTime":838.352,"body":"a bit, they get sick or whatever."},{"startTime":838.527,"endTime":842.093,"body":"So you're not really I guess what it"},{"startTime":838.527,"endTime":842.093,"body":"boils down to is you're not really taking"},{"startTime":842.093,"endTime":845.993,"body":"the, the the direction for priority"},{"startTime":842.093,"endTime":845.993,"body":"on that piece of work seriously enough"},{"startTime":846.035,"endTime":849.135,"body":"and consequently what's gonna happen is"},{"startTime":846.035,"endTime":849.135,"body":"things won't get done when the person"},{"startTime":849.135,"endTime":850.435,"body":"making the request wants 'em done."},{"startTime":850.51,"endTime":854.435,"body":"Right so that is something I'm sure"},{"startTime":850.51,"endTime":854.435,"body":"we've seen everybody who's listening to"},{"startTime":854.435,"endTime":856.11,"body":"this and watching this have seen before."},{"startTime":856.114,"endTime":860.968,"body":"Right we've described some of the,"},{"startTime":856.114,"endTime":860.968,"body":"the issues that happen to sort of"},{"startTime":862.077,"endTime":863.91,"body":"segue into what can be done mm-hmm."},{"startTime":863.977,"endTime":864.21,"body":"next."},{"startTime":864.21,"endTime":864.377,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":864.377,"endTime":864.543,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":864.61,"endTime":867.768,"body":"around those things if you've got"},{"startTime":864.61,"endTime":867.768,"body":"direction from leadership to work on"},{"startTime":867.768,"endTime":870.268,"body":"something instead of just simply taking."},{"startTime":871.031,"endTime":872.281,"body":"Direction and running with it."},{"startTime":873.431,"endTime":876.556,"body":"I would encourage teams to"},{"startTime":873.431,"endTime":876.556,"body":"say, okay, but at what expense?"},{"startTime":877.106,"endTime":877.431,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":877.506,"endTime":879.281,"body":"So we understand this is more important."},{"startTime":879.285,"endTime":881.481,"body":"Here's the bucket at the"},{"startTime":879.285,"endTime":881.481,"body":"moment that we're working on."},{"startTime":881.681,"endTime":885.531,"body":"Yeah and so if maybe it's not leadership"},{"startTime":881.681,"endTime":885.531,"body":"necessarily, it could be within"},{"startTime":885.531,"endTime":887.881,"body":"the teams, it could be the product"},{"startTime":885.531,"endTime":887.881,"body":"owner, the conversation needs to be"},{"startTime":887.881,"endTime":889.731,"body":"had, what are we dropping, right?"},{"startTime":889.881,"endTime":890.881,"body":"And what is the impact of that?"},{"startTime":890.881,"endTime":893.389,"body":"It was a quick conversation drop"},{"startTime":890.881,"endTime":893.389,"body":"this, drop that, whatever it is,"},{"startTime":893.864,"endTime":895.489,"body":"make sure that's recorded somewhere."},{"startTime":895.539,"endTime":899.131,"body":"Maybe it's in the, in the feature,"},{"startTime":895.539,"endTime":899.131,"body":"user story, whatever before you move"},{"startTime":899.131,"endTime":902.031,"body":"on, that way you've done something,"},{"startTime":899.131,"endTime":902.031,"body":"you've, you've made the decision to"},{"startTime":902.031,"endTime":905.831,"body":"switch work, current work for something"},{"startTime":902.031,"endTime":905.831,"body":"else that is deemed higher priority."},{"startTime":905.831,"endTime":905.981,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":906.231,"endTime":908.931,"body":"So the reason why I harp on this is"},{"startTime":906.231,"endTime":908.931,"body":"because when you pick up the work you've."},{"startTime":909.631,"endTime":910.656,"body":"You need to know where to pick it up."},{"startTime":911.031,"endTime":911.131,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":911.131,"endTime":913.506,"body":"And with the passage of time,"},{"startTime":911.131,"endTime":913.506,"body":"you'll probably start over."},{"startTime":913.656,"endTime":913.756,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":913.756,"endTime":916.506,"body":"At least with the discussions, et"},{"startTime":913.756,"endTime":916.506,"body":"cetera, getting your mind around it."},{"startTime":916.51,"endTime":919.739,"body":"The developers they work on that urgent"},{"startTime":916.51,"endTime":919.739,"body":"thing for let's say a few days, and"},{"startTime":919.739,"endTime":920.914,"body":"then they come back to the other thing."},{"startTime":921.264,"endTime":923.064,"body":"Now they have to go back"},{"startTime":921.264,"endTime":923.064,"body":"and learn all about that."},{"startTime":923.064,"endTime":923.989,"body":"Like, where were we again?"},{"startTime":924.014,"endTime":924.239,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":924.414,"endTime":927.306,"body":"I'm gonna cut in here because I"},{"startTime":924.414,"endTime":927.306,"body":"want to reframe what you're talking"},{"startTime":927.306,"endTime":931.039,"body":"about, not from the perspective of"},{"startTime":927.306,"endTime":931.039,"body":"this came up as a surprise and now"},{"startTime":931.039,"endTime":932.114,"body":"we gotta drop what we're working on."},{"startTime":932.114,"endTime":935.439,"body":"I wanna reframe it from the perspective"},{"startTime":932.114,"endTime":935.439,"body":"of like, leadership has come down and says"},{"startTime":935.506,"endTime":938.331,"body":"this is my, this, this is my top priority."},{"startTime":938.614,"endTime":940.214,"body":"Let's say that coincided"},{"startTime":938.614,"endTime":940.214,"body":"with your sprint planning."},{"startTime":940.589,"endTime":941.906,"body":"So now you you just."},{"startTime":943.281,"endTime":945.956,"body":"You, you haven't started a sprint yet, so"},{"startTime":943.281,"endTime":945.956,"body":"they're not interrupting any of your work."},{"startTime":945.956,"endTime":946.006,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":946.006,"endTime":948.031,"body":"You're, they're basically"},{"startTime":946.006,"endTime":948.031,"body":"from the start out."},{"startTime":948.156,"endTime":948.381,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":948.381,"endTime":952.081,"body":"So, so I'm thinking, I'm thinking from"},{"startTime":948.381,"endTime":952.081,"body":"every, every member of a Scrum team,"},{"startTime":952.156,"endTime":955.977,"body":"I'm thinking from the product manager's"},{"startTime":952.156,"endTime":955.977,"body":"perspective, it's probably the easiest"},{"startTime":955.977,"endTime":959.293,"body":"cuz a product manager could be the"},{"startTime":955.977,"endTime":959.293,"body":"person at every daily Scrum being being"},{"startTime":959.293,"endTime":961.568,"body":"like, Hey, I see us working on things"},{"startTime":959.293,"endTime":961.568,"body":"that are not number one priority."},{"startTime":961.573,"endTime":962.768,"body":"What, what, what are we doing?"},{"startTime":962.968,"endTime":965.252,"body":"Scrum Master could say the"},{"startTime":962.968,"endTime":965.252,"body":"same thing Hey, our sprint goal"},{"startTime":965.527,"endTime":966.577,"body":"is, the number one priority."},{"startTime":967.377,"endTime":968.777,"body":"Theoretically they should be related."},{"startTime":968.777,"endTime":970.777,"body":"If it's a sprint goal and it's"},{"startTime":968.777,"endTime":970.777,"body":"the number one priority, they"},{"startTime":970.777,"endTime":971.602,"body":"should be the same, right?"},{"startTime":971.627,"endTime":972.652,"body":"Because otherwise there is a."},{"startTime":973.968,"endTime":975.527,"body":"So put that off to the side for a second."},{"startTime":975.527,"endTime":976.302,"body":"Maybe we'll get back to that."},{"startTime":976.302,"endTime":980.327,"body":"Maybe we won't but then also I feel"},{"startTime":976.302,"endTime":980.327,"body":"your developers also could say Hey I"},{"startTime":980.327,"endTime":983.202,"body":"see developer, Bob, I see you working"},{"startTime":980.327,"endTime":983.202,"body":"on this thing that's a top priority."},{"startTime":983.402,"endTime":986.735,"body":"Would you mind if I hung around and"},{"startTime":983.402,"endTime":986.735,"body":"watched just so I can see how that"},{"startTime":986.735,"endTime":989.11,"body":"works or whatever, or, okay, can I take"},{"startTime":986.735,"endTime":989.11,"body":"this little piece or whatever Right."},{"startTime":989.11,"endTime":989.385,"body":"Pitch in."},{"startTime":989.56,"endTime":989.835,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":989.935,"endTime":992.31,"body":"And, and if you're a developer, Bob,"},{"startTime":989.935,"endTime":992.31,"body":"and you are the senior developer,"},{"startTime":992.785,"endTime":995.735,"body":"as a senior person on the team, you"},{"startTime":992.785,"endTime":995.735,"body":"should, any way you should be doing"},{"startTime":995.735,"endTime":998.86,"body":"this, you should be saying, why don't"},{"startTime":995.735,"endTime":998.86,"body":"you help me with this piece and you"},{"startTime":998.86,"endTime":1001.735,"body":"help me with this piece, and you should"},{"startTime":998.86,"endTime":1001.735,"body":"already be breaking up your work."},{"startTime":1002.11,"endTime":1004.985,"body":"And then to take a step back from Scrum"},{"startTime":1002.11,"endTime":1004.985,"body":"teams to go into the larger organization."},{"startTime":1004.985,"endTime":1008.46,"body":"If you're development leadership and"},{"startTime":1004.985,"endTime":1008.46,"body":"you see that they've moved all the"},{"startTime":1008.46,"endTime":1011.86,"body":"difficult stuff or all the whatever"},{"startTime":1008.46,"endTime":1011.86,"body":"platform stuff to one person, or all"},{"startTime":1011.864,"endTime":1013.01,"body":"the infrastructure stuff to one person"},{"startTime":1013.052,"endTime":1016.506,"body":"and,  maybe you're not on the team,"},{"startTime":1013.052,"endTime":1016.506,"body":"but you're senior, senior development"},{"startTime":1016.506,"endTime":1017.556,"body":"leadership in that organization."},{"startTime":1017.56,"endTime":1017.756,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1017.956,"endTime":1021.614,"body":"You should at least have a conversation"},{"startTime":1017.956,"endTime":1021.614,"body":"with your either your lead on that team"},{"startTime":1021.614,"endTime":1025.273,"body":"or with somebody on the developers on"},{"startTime":1021.614,"endTime":1025.273,"body":"your team or somebody to say do you think"},{"startTime":1025.273,"endTime":1027.381,"body":"this I understand you guys are stressing"},{"startTime":1025.273,"endTime":1027.381,"body":"and you're working fast or whatever,"},{"startTime":1027.385,"endTime":1030.773,"body":"but this strategy you're using of just"},{"startTime":1027.385,"endTime":1030.773,"body":"throwing everything on the whatever."},{"startTime":1030.773,"endTime":1033.656,"body":"Like this is a kind of a"},{"startTime":1030.773,"endTime":1033.656,"body":"self-defeating strategy."},{"startTime":1033.702,"endTime":1035.202,"body":"For everybody on the team."},{"startTime":1035.377,"endTime":1038.902,"body":"There is room, there is an entry point for"},{"startTime":1035.377,"endTime":1038.902,"body":"them to step in to assert themselves and"},{"startTime":1038.902,"endTime":1042.802,"body":"say, Hey, we could be working together, we"},{"startTime":1038.902,"endTime":1042.802,"body":"could be swarming to knock out the highest"},{"startTime":1042.802,"endTime":1046.452,"body":"priority and we could be using, doing"},{"startTime":1042.802,"endTime":1046.452,"body":"something to make sure we're knocking out"},{"startTime":1046.452,"endTime":1048.177,"body":"the highest priority together, you know?"},{"startTime":1049.177,"endTime":1049.827,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1049.831,"endTime":1050.277,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1050.277,"endTime":1053.935,"body":"So one of the things that really"},{"startTime":1050.277,"endTime":1053.935,"body":"helps teams do that is if they"},{"startTime":1053.935,"endTime":1057.985,"body":"have somebody who can say every"},{"startTime":1053.935,"endTime":1057.985,"body":"day, whatever we're doing, is that"},{"startTime":1058.318,"endTime":1059.485,"body":"contributing to our spring goal, right?"},{"startTime":1059.585,"endTime":1059.685,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1059.689,"endTime":1060.685,"body":"So we won't go there."},{"startTime":1060.785,"endTime":1062.06,"body":"That's not the focus of this podcast."},{"startTime":1062.06,"endTime":1064.61,"body":"But I wanted to say something"},{"startTime":1062.06,"endTime":1064.61,"body":"about the how piece now, right?"},{"startTime":1064.614,"endTime":1066.385,"body":"So how do, how do you do that?"},{"startTime":1066.385,"endTime":1069.71,"body":"How do you focus on the highest"},{"startTime":1066.385,"endTime":1069.71,"body":"priority thing and then also keep"},{"startTime":1069.71,"endTime":1072.868,"body":"your eye on something that's late"},{"startTime":1069.71,"endTime":1072.868,"body":"breaking something new which is now of"},{"startTime":1072.873,"endTime":1074.968,"body":"a higher priority than before, right?"},{"startTime":1075.518,"endTime":1078.923,"body":"If, if teams are using a board"},{"startTime":1075.518,"endTime":1078.923,"body":"that's, Obviously make it easier,"},{"startTime":1079.148,"endTime":1080.498,"body":"but it's not the only way to do it."},{"startTime":1080.573,"endTime":1082.648,"body":"If you're using a board, you"},{"startTime":1080.573,"endTime":1082.648,"body":"could have a lane right at the"},{"startTime":1082.648,"endTime":1084.606,"body":"top for high priority work right."},{"startTime":1084.864,"endTime":1088.664,"body":"So normally it's empty if the priority"},{"startTime":1084.864,"endTime":1088.664,"body":"doesn't get changed on the team, but"},{"startTime":1088.664,"endTime":1092.514,"body":"if something new comes up, then before"},{"startTime":1088.664,"endTime":1092.514,"body":"bringing it into that, or as you're doing"},{"startTime":1092.539,"endTime":1095.789,"body":"that, again, just to repeat myself, the"},{"startTime":1092.539,"endTime":1095.789,"body":"conversation is what are we taking out?"},{"startTime":1096.139,"endTime":1096.414,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1096.414,"endTime":1100.885,"body":"And seeing it on a, on a board with"},{"startTime":1096.414,"endTime":1100.885,"body":"whip limit helps you meter that, right?"},{"startTime":1101.135,"endTime":1104.077,"body":"Yeah but if you're not using"},{"startTime":1101.135,"endTime":1104.077,"body":"a kanban board of sorts, how"},{"startTime":1104.077,"endTime":1105.827,"body":"do you do that then, then?"},{"startTime":1105.827,"endTime":1110.002,"body":"I think that comes down to religiously,"},{"startTime":1105.827,"endTime":1110.002,"body":"making sure that your backlog is ordered."},{"startTime":1110.077,"endTime":1110.227,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1110.252,"endTime":1112.477,"body":"So something new comes in as"},{"startTime":1110.252,"endTime":1112.477,"body":"higher priority has to go."},{"startTime":1113.239,"endTime":1116.289,"body":"Whatever you're working on, when that"},{"startTime":1113.239,"endTime":1116.289,"body":"happens, what you're working on presumably"},{"startTime":1116.289,"endTime":1119.681,"body":"has a status or a state of active or"},{"startTime":1116.289,"endTime":1119.681,"body":"in progress or something like that."},{"startTime":1119.681,"endTime":1119.948,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1120.014,"endTime":1122.464,"body":", something new comes in that's higher"},{"startTime":1120.014,"endTime":1122.464,"body":"priority goes above that and it's,"},{"startTime":1122.464,"endTime":1126.064,"body":"it's sitting there in a state of new"},{"startTime":1122.464,"endTime":1126.064,"body":"that visually says to the whole team"},{"startTime":1126.064,"endTime":1129.089,"body":"and anybody looking at that backlog,"},{"startTime":1126.064,"endTime":1129.089,"body":"that this thing is more important."},{"startTime":1129.089,"endTime":1129.964,"body":"We haven't started on it yet."},{"startTime":1130.464,"endTime":1132.839,"body":"So it's the onus is then on the team."},{"startTime":1132.914,"endTime":1136.139,"body":"Typically it's, it's a product owner"},{"startTime":1132.914,"endTime":1136.139,"body":"or somebody like that to make sure that"},{"startTime":1136.143,"endTime":1139.289,"body":"the states or statuses are kept current"},{"startTime":1136.143,"endTime":1139.289,"body":"as well as the order is kept current."},{"startTime":1139.639,"endTime":1143.264,"body":"As things get done, move 'em away"},{"startTime":1139.639,"endTime":1143.264,"body":"from where they were on the board"},{"startTime":1143.698,"endTime":1146.923,"body":"towards the bottom, whether it's the"},{"startTime":1143.698,"endTime":1146.923,"body":"sprint backlog or the product backlog."},{"startTime":1146.998,"endTime":1150.473,"body":"So making sure that is kept"},{"startTime":1146.998,"endTime":1150.473,"body":"current is, I think, key in"},{"startTime":1150.473,"endTime":1151.748,"body":"facilitating the conversations."},{"startTime":1151.773,"endTime":1152.073,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1152.073,"endTime":1154.677,"body":"You know, I I recently went through this"},{"startTime":1152.073,"endTime":1154.677,"body":"like we were talking before the podcast."},{"startTime":1154.677,"endTime":1157.502,"body":"I recently went through this"},{"startTime":1154.677,"endTime":1157.502,"body":"and I found that I needed to."},{"startTime":1158.102,"endTime":1163.277,"body":"I needed to display leadership's"},{"startTime":1158.102,"endTime":1163.277,"body":"initiatives, business level"},{"startTime":1163.327,"endTime":1164.602,"body":"initiatives, business goals."},{"startTime":1164.606,"endTime":1166.777,"body":"I was talking about before, you can call"},{"startTime":1164.606,"endTime":1166.777,"body":"'em goals, you can call 'em initiatives,"},{"startTime":1166.777,"endTime":1167.452,"body":"you can call 'em whatever you want."},{"startTime":1167.452,"endTime":1167.602,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1167.606,"endTime":1168.602,"body":"Objectives, whatever you wanna call it."},{"startTime":1168.602,"endTime":1168.677,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1168.977,"endTime":1172.393,"body":", you can, OKRs, you can do the same"},{"startTime":1168.977,"endTime":1172.393,"body":"thing I needed to display them at a"},{"startTime":1172.398,"endTime":1176.093,"body":"high level so that when the individual"},{"startTime":1172.398,"endTime":1176.093,"body":"product managers on individual teams"},{"startTime":1176.143,"endTime":1179.893,"body":"with individual products of their own"},{"startTime":1176.143,"endTime":1179.893,"body":"came in later, they could say, well, I'm"},{"startTime":1179.893,"endTime":1184.318,"body":"servicing this okr, this organizational"},{"startTime":1179.893,"endTime":1184.318,"body":"okr, this organizational objective."},{"startTime":1184.493,"endTime":1185.868,"body":"I'm servicing it this way."},{"startTime":1185.893,"endTime":1189.518,"body":"And they can basically pull into their"},{"startTime":1185.893,"endTime":1189.518,"body":"backlog, small pieces of that larger"},{"startTime":1189.868,"endTime":1191.443,"body":"initiative that the business is taking on."},{"startTime":1191.593,"endTime":1198.618,"body":"But, but, but I like the business only"},{"startTime":1191.593,"endTime":1198.618,"body":"knows, Hey, I like I'm, I'm, this,"},{"startTime":1198.623,"endTime":1202.218,"body":"this is something I wanna do that I'm"},{"startTime":1198.623,"endTime":1202.218,"body":"kind of vetting it against the rest"},{"startTime":1202.218,"endTime":1205.193,"body":"of the things that we could do where"},{"startTime":1202.218,"endTime":1205.193,"body":"no one's really working on it yet."},{"startTime":1206.293,"endTime":1210.268,"body":"Versus a development team actually is"},{"startTime":1206.293,"endTime":1210.268,"body":"taking pieces of it and implementing it."},{"startTime":1210.343,"endTime":1212.393,"body":"Like I, I need clear delineations."},{"startTime":1212.468,"endTime":1216.843,"body":"And, and then, and then the last column"},{"startTime":1212.468,"endTime":1216.843,"body":"is, so it's, it's to do in progress."},{"startTime":1216.893,"endTime":1218.218,"body":"And the last column obviously is done."},{"startTime":1218.368,"endTime":1218.843,"body":"Done."},{"startTime":1219.093,"endTime":1222.543,"body":"Which done might mean I've"},{"startTime":1219.093,"endTime":1222.543,"body":"put enough money into this."},{"startTime":1222.543,"endTime":1224.818,"body":"I'm not willing to spend more"},{"startTime":1222.543,"endTime":1224.818,"body":"money on this initiative, no"},{"startTime":1224.818,"endTime":1225.943,"body":"matter what product or whatever"},{"startTime":1225.985,"endTime":1227.123,"body":"I'm not willing to spend more money on it."},{"startTime":1227.735,"endTime":1228.66,"body":"It's cut off, it's done."},{"startTime":1228.81,"endTime":1231.26,"body":"So you still might have things that you"},{"startTime":1228.81,"endTime":1231.26,"body":"could do that are sitting in different"},{"startTime":1231.26,"endTime":1234.685,"body":"backlogs or whatever, but because the"},{"startTime":1231.26,"endTime":1234.685,"body":"initiative, the high business initiative"},{"startTime":1234.685,"endTime":1238.348,"body":"has closed either the items that are"},{"startTime":1234.685,"endTime":1238.348,"body":"left open, Either migrate to other"},{"startTime":1238.348,"endTime":1241.398,"body":"initiatives where it makes sense to"},{"startTime":1238.348,"endTime":1241.398,"body":"move them to, or they just close because"},{"startTime":1241.398,"endTime":1244.173,"body":"like the businesses decided we don't"},{"startTime":1241.398,"endTime":1244.173,"body":"wanna put any more money into this."},{"startTime":1244.348,"endTime":1246.798,"body":"I think, I think of a lot of legacy"},{"startTime":1244.348,"endTime":1246.798,"body":"products that I worked on at companies"},{"startTime":1246.798,"endTime":1249.252,"body":"where like, Hey, that's a great idea"},{"startTime":1246.798,"endTime":1249.252,"body":"and we probably can make a little,"},{"startTime":1249.252,"endTime":1252.077,"body":"like 10% more money or whatever, but"},{"startTime":1249.252,"endTime":1252.077,"body":"like, the business is not willing to"},{"startTime":1252.077,"endTime":1254.277,"body":"spend another dime on this product."},{"startTime":1254.652,"endTime":1254.752,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1254.752,"endTime":1256.952,"body":"You got what you got as far"},{"startTime":1254.752,"endTime":1256.952,"body":"as money goes and that's it."},{"startTime":1257.127,"endTime":1257.277,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1257.277,"endTime":1260.627,"body":"The the accountants use a a"},{"startTime":1257.277,"endTime":1260.627,"body":"metric for that Mai or ROCE"},{"startTime":1260.943,"endTime":1262.243,"body":"return on capital employed."},{"startTime":1262.468,"endTime":1265.318,"body":"So where is this chunk of"},{"startTime":1262.468,"endTime":1265.318,"body":"money going to go next?"},{"startTime":1265.318,"endTime":1269.248,"body":"Right and, and it helps them, it, it"},{"startTime":1265.318,"endTime":1269.248,"body":"helps them certainly prioritize what"},{"startTime":1269.248,"endTime":1270.423,"body":"they're putting the funding toward"},{"startTime":1270.898,"endTime":1273.998,"body":"I think from a team's perspective,"},{"startTime":1270.898,"endTime":1273.998,"body":"if you're always looking at the"},{"startTime":1274.002,"endTime":1278.335,"body":"boards, your backlogs, et cetera, That"},{"startTime":1274.002,"endTime":1278.335,"body":"can, that can make things visible."},{"startTime":1278.535,"endTime":1278.835,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1278.835,"endTime":1281.86,"body":"So somebody puts something that's a"},{"startTime":1278.835,"endTime":1281.86,"body":"higher priority at the top of the Sure."},{"startTime":1282.01,"endTime":1282.46,"body":"The chart."},{"startTime":1282.46,"endTime":1284.085,"body":"And you're working on"},{"startTime":1282.46,"endTime":1284.085,"body":"something that's lower."},{"startTime":1284.085,"endTime":1286.685,"body":"You are working on it yesterday,"},{"startTime":1284.085,"endTime":1286.685,"body":"maybe the day before, but today you"},{"startTime":1286.689,"endTime":1289.785,"body":"suddenly notice that should be asking"},{"startTime":1286.689,"endTime":1289.785,"body":"the question, Hey, this has come up."},{"startTime":1289.785,"endTime":1290.86,"body":"Do I need to drop what I'm doing?"},{"startTime":1290.864,"endTime":1291.26,"body":"Yeah yeah."},{"startTime":1291.31,"endTime":1293.943,"body":"And do not wait for a"},{"startTime":1291.31,"endTime":1293.943,"body":"sprint event for that."},{"startTime":1293.943,"endTime":1295.018,"body":"Don't wait for the next day."},{"startTime":1295.018,"endTime":1295.868,"body":"Stand up for that."},{"startTime":1295.918,"endTime":1296.593,"body":"Ask the question."},{"startTime":1296.593,"endTime":1299.618,"body":"You have a team chat or you know, some"},{"startTime":1296.593,"endTime":1299.618,"body":"other way that you can communicate"},{"startTime":1299.618,"endTime":1300.318,"body":"with the rest of your team."},{"startTime":1300.318,"endTime":1301.06,"body":"Yeah, yeah yeah."},{"startTime":1301.21,"endTime":1303.735,"body":"So that would be, that would be the"},{"startTime":1301.21,"endTime":1303.735,"body":"thing to do is talk about it so you can"},{"startTime":1303.739,"endTime":1307.835,"body":"take action early and then communicate"},{"startTime":1303.739,"endTime":1307.835,"body":"what the decision is and the actions"},{"startTime":1307.835,"endTime":1309.227,"body":"that are being taken to everyone."},{"startTime":1310.085,"endTime":1313.735,"body":"That's more critical now, cuz you're"},{"startTime":1310.085,"endTime":1313.735,"body":"not actually in a room every day."},{"startTime":1313.81,"endTime":1316.61,"body":"You can see, see the board, but you"},{"startTime":1313.81,"endTime":1316.61,"body":"could still see the board, right."},{"startTime":1316.61,"endTime":1317.835,"body":"If you're doing remote in sprint."},{"startTime":1318.698,"endTime":1318.948,"body":". Yeah."},{"startTime":1319.723,"endTime":1320.423,"body":"Yeah, that's true."},{"startTime":1320.423,"endTime":1323.798,"body":"I mean, if something pops like"},{"startTime":1320.423,"endTime":1323.798,"body":"theoretically, like the, the higher"},{"startTime":1323.798,"endTime":1326.823,"body":"level business objective business"},{"startTime":1323.798,"endTime":1326.823,"body":"goal board that I was talking about"},{"startTime":1326.981,"endTime":1329.881,"body":"things shouldn't, it shouldn't be"},{"startTime":1326.981,"endTime":1329.881,"body":"surprise, it shouldn't be a surprise"},{"startTime":1329.881,"endTime":1331.081,"body":"when things pop up onto that board."},{"startTime":1331.085,"endTime":1332.381,"body":"Hopefully  No, that's right."},{"startTime":1332.385,"endTime":1334.531,"body":"There shouldn't be too many"},{"startTime":1332.385,"endTime":1334.531,"body":"changes on that cuz otherwise"},{"startTime":1334.531,"endTime":1335.581,"body":"the organization's flip flopping."},{"startTime":1335.631,"endTime":1338.106,"body":"Well, especially since"},{"startTime":1335.631,"endTime":1338.106,"body":"it's it's cross product."},{"startTime":1338.11,"endTime":1338.439,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1338.439,"endTime":1341.781,"body":"It truly is what the organization"},{"startTime":1338.439,"endTime":1341.781,"body":"wants to do and, and, and where it"},{"startTime":1341.781,"endTime":1342.556,"body":"wants to go and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1342.556,"endTime":1345.998,"body":"So yeah, you can't I hope that your"},{"startTime":1342.556,"endTime":1345.998,"body":"organization is not flip flopping"},{"startTime":1346.748,"endTime":1350.798,"body":"faster than your development teams"},{"startTime":1346.748,"endTime":1350.798,"body":"can move over to, to whatever priority"},{"startTime":1350.798,"endTime":1351.673,"body":"that the organization has set."},{"startTime":1351.714,"endTime":1353.789,"body":"You're in quite turbulent"},{"startTime":1351.714,"endTime":1353.789,"body":"waters, if that is true."},{"startTime":1354.239,"endTime":1354.414,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1354.414,"endTime":1355.864,"body":"I mean there are obviously"},{"startTime":1354.414,"endTime":1355.864,"body":"exceptions, right?"},{"startTime":1356.064,"endTime":1359.114,"body":"Like for example, on that business"},{"startTime":1356.064,"endTime":1359.114,"body":"objective board, you have something"},{"startTime":1359.114,"endTime":1360.089,"body":"that the teams are working on."},{"startTime":1360.427,"endTime":1364.377,"body":"And maybe the organizational decision"},{"startTime":1360.427,"endTime":1364.377,"body":"is now made to not fund that anymore."},{"startTime":1364.702,"endTime":1365.002,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1365.002,"endTime":1367.277,"body":"So we're sun setting this,"},{"startTime":1365.002,"endTime":1367.277,"body":"there's no more money on that."},{"startTime":1367.393,"endTime":1367.577,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1367.577,"endTime":1370.352,"body":"Stop work because any work that"},{"startTime":1367.577,"endTime":1370.352,"body":"you do isn't gonna pay back."},{"startTime":1370.452,"endTime":1372.91,"body":"Yeah that kind of thing happens,"},{"startTime":1370.452,"endTime":1372.91,"body":"but it's rare, you know?"},{"startTime":1372.91,"endTime":1373.385,"body":"Hopefully."},{"startTime":1373.435,"endTime":1374.51,"body":"Yeah, I, I could see that."},{"startTime":1374.56,"endTime":1377.11,"body":"I, I've been, I mean, I've been in"},{"startTime":1374.56,"endTime":1377.11,"body":"projects that have been sunset before"},{"startTime":1377.11,"endTime":1379.66,"body":"and it's, it's basically like there"},{"startTime":1377.11,"endTime":1379.66,"body":"are customers locked into contracts."},{"startTime":1379.985,"endTime":1382.977,"body":"You have no guarantee they're gonna"},{"startTime":1379.985,"endTime":1382.977,"body":"renew, but, until they do renew,"},{"startTime":1382.977,"endTime":1384.252,"body":"you know how much cash you have."},{"startTime":1384.252,"endTime":1387.406,"body":"And for the customers that do renew"},{"startTime":1384.252,"endTime":1387.406,"body":"and whatever the cycle is, maybe"},{"startTime":1387.406,"endTime":1390.039,"body":"they have staggered renewals you have"},{"startTime":1387.406,"endTime":1390.039,"body":"X amount of cash and, and they're"},{"startTime":1390.043,"endTime":1393.014,"body":"locked into the product as is with"},{"startTime":1390.043,"endTime":1393.014,"body":"no new features promised or whatever."},{"startTime":1393.014,"endTime":1395.614,"body":"That's what happens when you,"},{"startTime":1393.014,"endTime":1395.614,"body":"you sunset systems and you have"},{"startTime":1395.614,"endTime":1397.81,"body":"clients that basically like they're"},{"startTime":1395.614,"endTime":1397.81,"body":"trying to move off the system."},{"startTime":1399.223,"endTime":1403.439,"body":"It's difficult to get I was gonna say,"},{"startTime":1399.223,"endTime":1403.439,"body":"get unmarried , once you're married to a"},{"startTime":1403.439,"endTime":1406.039,"body":"system, it's difficult to not be married."},{"startTime":1406.639,"endTime":1408.789,"body":"It's not really getting"},{"startTime":1406.639,"endTime":1408.789,"body":"divorced, it's No, that's right."},{"startTime":1408.831,"endTime":1409.731,"body":"I don't know what I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":1409.731,"endTime":1410.364,"body":"Like, I don't know."},{"startTime":1410.368,"endTime":1410.731,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1410.731,"endTime":1413.756,"body":"I'll tell you what I've seen this thing"},{"startTime":1410.731,"endTime":1413.756,"body":"happen also is when there's mergers,"},{"startTime":1413.76,"endTime":1417.231,"body":"because oftentimes a company takes over"},{"startTime":1413.76,"endTime":1417.231,"body":"another company cuz they want their client"},{"startTime":1417.231,"endTime":1420.231,"body":"base or their product or whatever than"},{"startTime":1417.231,"endTime":1420.231,"body":"their products just being shut down."},{"startTime":1420.235,"endTime":1422.231,"body":"It's effectively, so I've seen it happen."},{"startTime":1422.506,"endTime":1424.706,"body":"That environment, that's, that's"},{"startTime":1422.506,"endTime":1424.706,"body":"a much bigger step because now"},{"startTime":1424.706,"endTime":1427.731,"body":"the teams are asked to completely"},{"startTime":1424.706,"endTime":1427.731,"body":"stop work across the board Right."},{"startTime":1427.756,"endTime":1430.068,"body":"On the product that they've"},{"startTime":1427.756,"endTime":1430.068,"body":"been developing , or enhancing"},{"startTime":1430.068,"endTime":1431.718,"body":"and learn about this new one."},{"startTime":1431.993,"endTime":1434.702,"body":"Yeah that's a bit of a, that's"},{"startTime":1431.993,"endTime":1434.702,"body":"a bigger jump, but it happens."},{"startTime":1434.752,"endTime":1435.077,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1435.227,"endTime":1439.135,"body":"And I would also add, like I, I,"},{"startTime":1435.227,"endTime":1439.135,"body":"I was through that on the Acquire"},{"startTime":1439.135,"endTime":1442.785,"body":"Ring side actually, or we acquired"},{"startTime":1439.135,"endTime":1442.785,"body":"a company that had a mobile app."},{"startTime":1442.785,"endTime":1446.456,"body":"And uh, I, I remember we like, say"},{"startTime":1442.785,"endTime":1446.456,"body":"like end, when you end a life apps"},{"startTime":1446.456,"endTime":1449.198,"body":"in the mobile app store, you can"},{"startTime":1446.456,"endTime":1449.198,"body":"when people go to open the app,"},{"startTime":1449.448,"endTime":1451.873,"body":"you can give 'em a link that says,"},{"startTime":1449.448,"endTime":1451.873,"body":"Hey, this app is no longer working."},{"startTime":1452.023,"endTime":1452.923,"body":"Go get this other app."},{"startTime":1452.923,"endTime":1454.798,"body":"And you know that that's the"},{"startTime":1452.923,"endTime":1454.798,"body":"one you gotta use from now on."},{"startTime":1455.098,"endTime":1457.323,"body":"And of course, people who are"},{"startTime":1455.098,"endTime":1457.323,"body":"happily using the app that's being"},{"startTime":1457.323,"endTime":1458.798,"body":"decommissioned, they're not like users."},{"startTime":1459.298,"endTime":1461.473,"body":"They're not happy . That's"},{"startTime":1459.298,"endTime":1461.473,"body":"right, that's right."},{"startTime":1461.473,"endTime":1462.673,"body":"So they'll, they'll beat"},{"startTime":1461.473,"endTime":1462.673,"body":"you up in the app store."},{"startTime":1462.748,"endTime":1465.773,"body":"But yeah, some, sometimes, yeah, sometimes"},{"startTime":1462.748,"endTime":1465.773,"body":"you have a, a perfectly working, in this"},{"startTime":1465.773,"endTime":1468.373,"body":"case, the mobile app I'm talking about,"},{"startTime":1465.773,"endTime":1468.373,"body":"it was a perfectly working product."},{"startTime":1468.373,"endTime":1471.123,"body":"It's just a company who was like,"},{"startTime":1468.373,"endTime":1471.123,"body":"why would I keep two mobile apps?"},{"startTime":1471.198,"endTime":1473.448,"body":"Yeah, I'll, I'll take all your"},{"startTime":1471.198,"endTime":1473.448,"body":"users, I'll roll 'em over into my"},{"startTime":1473.448,"endTime":1476.473,"body":"other u And you know, they actually,"},{"startTime":1473.448,"endTime":1476.473,"body":"that company was super sloppy by"},{"startTime":1476.473,"endTime":1477.448,"body":"the way, the way they did it too."},{"startTime":1477.623,"endTime":1478.723,"body":"They didn't even automatically."},{"startTime":1479.348,"endTime":1481.998,"body":"The mobile users over, they, they"},{"startTime":1479.348,"endTime":1481.998,"body":"said, Hey, go register for this app."},{"startTime":1481.998,"endTime":1483.173,"body":"Here's a link to the app store."},{"startTime":1483.223,"endTime":1486.398,"body":"And they basically made them act"},{"startTime":1483.223,"endTime":1486.398,"body":"like they were brand new clients."},{"startTime":1486.548,"endTime":1488.173,"body":"Real, real yeah."},{"startTime":1488.177,"endTime":1490.898,"body":"Not like customer loyalty"},{"startTime":1488.177,"endTime":1490.898,"body":"was not top of their mind."},{"startTime":1490.898,"endTime":1491.273,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1491.277,"endTime":1494.977,"body":"Yeah dollar signs was top of their mind"},{"startTime":1491.277,"endTime":1494.977,"body":"oh boy, where have we seen that before?"},{"startTime":1495.002,"endTime":1495.277,"body":"Yikes"},{"startTime":1495.285,"endTime":1498.077,"body":"you mentioned something before that I,"},{"startTime":1495.285,"endTime":1498.077,"body":"I didn't bring it up when you mentioned"},{"startTime":1498.077,"endTime":1499.027,"body":"it, but I wanna bring it up now."},{"startTime":1499.277,"endTime":1501.527,"body":"You, you said something"},{"startTime":1499.277,"endTime":1501.527,"body":"about work being blocked."},{"startTime":1501.889,"endTime":1502.039,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1502.064,"endTime":1502.489,"body":"Before."},{"startTime":1502.589,"endTime":1502.864,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1502.914,"endTime":1502.964,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1503.014,"endTime":1503.564,"body":"What, what?"},{"startTime":1503.564,"endTime":1506.389,"body":"Like I went through this recently with a"},{"startTime":1503.564,"endTime":1506.389,"body":"team where they were talking about work"},{"startTime":1506.389,"endTime":1509.981,"body":"being blocked and I think what, what I,"},{"startTime":1506.389,"endTime":1509.981,"body":"when I confronted them, I'm like, you guys"},{"startTime":1509.981,"endTime":1513.748,"body":"are using blocked really, really liberally"},{"startTime":1509.981,"endTime":1513.748,"body":"because I like, I think of blocked."},{"startTime":1514.273,"endTime":1516.189,"body":"I think of blocked  like a locked door."},{"startTime":1516.189,"endTime":1519.214,"body":"You physically cannot walk through"},{"startTime":1516.189,"endTime":1519.214,"body":"like a truly blocked I'm trying"},{"startTime":1519.218,"endTime":1522.452,"body":"to even think of an appropriate"},{"startTime":1519.218,"endTime":1522.452,"body":"usage of the word blocked means."},{"startTime":1522.456,"endTime":1528.456,"body":"I'm developing a web front end that"},{"startTime":1522.456,"endTime":1528.456,"body":"does functionality y but in order"},{"startTime":1528.46,"endTime":1533.41,"body":"for the web front end to work doing"},{"startTime":1528.46,"endTime":1533.41,"body":"functionality I have to have backend"},{"startTime":1533.435,"endTime":1537.985,"body":"API X developed that functionality"},{"startTime":1533.435,"endTime":1537.985,"body":"y triggers to get its response."},{"startTime":1537.989,"endTime":1544.185,"body":"Now I could develop front end y"},{"startTime":1537.989,"endTime":1544.185,"body":"webpage with stubbed out nonsense"},{"startTime":1544.21,"endTime":1547.952,"body":"responses, but I can only get so"},{"startTime":1544.21,"endTime":1547.952,"body":"far you can't put it in production."},{"startTime":1547.952,"endTime":1548.402,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1548.593,"endTime":1550.377,"body":"I mean, I, I might be able"},{"startTime":1548.593,"endTime":1550.377,"body":"to put it in production."},{"startTime":1550.627,"endTime":1554.927,"body":"You might with like, hey whatever, like I"},{"startTime":1550.627,"endTime":1554.927,"body":"around it, whatever, whatever color of car"},{"startTime":1554.927,"endTime":1556.477,"body":"that you order, it's gonna turn out black."},{"startTime":1556.477,"endTime":1559.452,"body":"Cuz that's what gets, I don't have"},{"startTime":1556.477,"endTime":1559.452,"body":"the production list of colors."},{"startTime":1559.452,"endTime":1561.252,"body":"So you're gonna get black, whatever it is."},{"startTime":1561.252,"endTime":1565.002,"body":"If you wanna order a car with a black"},{"startTime":1561.252,"endTime":1565.002,"body":"paint job, that's the only color"},{"startTime":1565.002,"endTime":1568.335,"body":"that I'm sure that our Brian and"},{"startTime":1565.002,"endTime":1568.335,"body":"Om's auto manufacturing can produce."},{"startTime":1568.468,"endTime":1570.018,"body":"We are all a hundred percent"},{"startTime":1568.468,"endTime":1570.018,"body":"sure we can do black."},{"startTime":1570.093,"endTime":1573.331,"body":"So I, as a front end developer,"},{"startTime":1570.093,"endTime":1573.331,"body":"without an API that responds"},{"startTime":1573.331,"endTime":1574.656,"body":"with the proper set of colors."},{"startTime":1575.181,"endTime":1576.306,"body":"I'm just gonna, everything's black."},{"startTime":1576.606,"endTime":1578.881,"body":"So we can go to production if"},{"startTime":1576.606,"endTime":1578.881,"body":"leadership's like, you know what,"},{"startTime":1579.506,"endTime":1584.056,"body":"fine on the initial splash page, just"},{"startTime":1579.506,"endTime":1584.056,"body":"say, Hey, just to let you know, Mr."},{"startTime":1584.056,"endTime":1587.206,"body":"User, before you step through"},{"startTime":1584.056,"endTime":1587.206,"body":"this car order form, you can"},{"startTime":1587.206,"endTime":1588.181,"body":"only choose black as a color."},{"startTime":1588.739,"endTime":1590.389,"body":"As we're cool with that, like great."},{"startTime":1590.989,"endTime":1592.464,"body":"But the majority like that."},{"startTime":1592.464,"endTime":1594.164,"body":"That's a very simplistic Yeah."},{"startTime":1594.168,"endTime":1594.339,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1594.339,"endTime":1594.714,"body":"Example."},{"startTime":1594.873,"endTime":1598.873,"body":"So a, a true blocker is like, well,"},{"startTime":1594.873,"endTime":1598.873,"body":"this thing doesn't even exist and"},{"startTime":1599.198,"endTime":1601.323,"body":"I can't, I can't truly fake it."},{"startTime":1601.798,"endTime":1605.089,"body":"I think of like a, when I worked on"},{"startTime":1601.798,"endTime":1605.089,"body":"the data warehouse you would pick up"},{"startTime":1605.089,"endTime":1606.689,"body":"data and you'd ship it somewhere else."},{"startTime":1606.789,"endTime":1610.698,"body":"So like if somebody didn't create the"},{"startTime":1606.789,"endTime":1610.698,"body":"platform you were shipping it to well, the"},{"startTime":1610.698,"endTime":1613.948,"body":"platform doesn't exist, so like you could"},{"startTime":1610.698,"endTime":1613.948,"body":"do things locally or you can create a test"},{"startTime":1613.952,"endTime":1615.423,"body":"environment or whatever, like an in-house."},{"startTime":1615.548,"endTime":1619.248,"body":"But like if you're proving that you're"},{"startTime":1615.548,"endTime":1619.248,"body":"gonna ship data somewhere and the platform"},{"startTime":1619.248,"endTime":1623.914,"body":"doesn't exist, you're shipping it to, you"},{"startTime":1619.248,"endTime":1623.914,"body":"truly are blocked in that instance yeah."},{"startTime":1623.939,"endTime":1628.131,"body":"So blocked it doesn't just"},{"startTime":1623.939,"endTime":1628.131,"body":"mean an impediment, it truly"},{"startTime":1628.131,"endTime":1630.106,"body":"means cannot move forward."},{"startTime":1630.506,"endTime":1630.731,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1630.731,"endTime":1632.106,"body":"So in that example though, right?"},{"startTime":1632.518,"endTime":1635.543,"body":"Maybe you just change your definition"},{"startTime":1632.518,"endTime":1635.543,"body":"of done to say we're gonna build"},{"startTime":1635.543,"endTime":1638.793,"body":"it, test it, but not, there isn't"},{"startTime":1635.543,"endTime":1638.793,"body":"a final destination for it yet."},{"startTime":1638.968,"endTime":1640.918,"body":"That might be another story"},{"startTime":1638.968,"endTime":1640.918,"body":"or a bunch of other stories"},{"startTime":1641.227,"endTime":1645.177,"body":"what about something really, really"},{"startTime":1641.227,"endTime":1645.177,"body":"stark, like a developer working remotely?"},{"startTime":1645.218,"endTime":1648.343,"body":"Their laptop crash, they're"},{"startTime":1645.218,"endTime":1648.343,"body":"blocked, they can't work, right?"},{"startTime":1648.443,"endTime":1649.418,"body":"Yeah but I agree with you."},{"startTime":1649.418,"endTime":1653.793,"body":"Blocked is way too often used to"},{"startTime":1649.418,"endTime":1653.793,"body":"mean, not really blocked, but yeah."},{"startTime":1654.043,"endTime":1654.868,"body":"Something, right"},{"startTime":1654.977,"endTime":1658.977,"body":"I went through this recently, this week"},{"startTime":1654.977,"endTime":1658.977,"body":"as a matter of fact a, a team had a column"},{"startTime":1658.977,"endTime":1660.452,"body":"on their kanban board called on hold."},{"startTime":1660.527,"endTime":1660.602,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1660.764,"endTime":1662.139,"body":","},{"startTime":1660.764,"endTime":1662.139,"body":"that's just another way of saying blocked."},{"startTime":1662.314,"endTime":1666.648,"body":"Yeah and there were multiple things over"},{"startTime":1662.314,"endTime":1666.648,"body":"almost two dozen things in that column."},{"startTime":1666.648,"endTime":1667.023,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1667.323,"endTime":1671.523,"body":"And I'm looking at that, that stood out"},{"startTime":1667.323,"endTime":1671.523,"body":"from all the other columns by a long way."},{"startTime":1671.581,"endTime":1674.523,"body":"I, I mean, I mean, I, I have to say"},{"startTime":1671.581,"endTime":1674.523,"body":"like, I not cool to cut in, but like"},{"startTime":1674.623,"endTime":1676.648,"body":"one thing in the block column should."},{"startTime":1677.035,"endTime":1679.86,"body":"Like immediately in your daily"},{"startTime":1677.035,"endTime":1679.86,"body":"setup, you should all zone into"},{"startTime":1680.085,"endTime":1681.46,"body":"the one thing in the block column."},{"startTime":1681.46,"endTime":1681.71,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1681.71,"endTime":1682.06,"body":"Whoa, whoa, whoa."},{"startTime":1682.06,"endTime":1682.735,"body":"There's something blocked."},{"startTime":1682.735,"endTime":1685.235,"body":"Hang on, let's all stop and"},{"startTime":1682.735,"endTime":1685.235,"body":"see what we can, you know?"},{"startTime":1685.235,"endTime":1685.31,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1685.36,"endTime":1687.052,"body":"Let's all roll past sleeve"},{"startTime":1685.36,"endTime":1687.052,"body":"and unblock that thing."},{"startTime":1687.21,"endTime":1689.685,"body":"So I, one of the things I do as"},{"startTime":1687.21,"endTime":1689.685,"body":"a matter of course now, is to"},{"startTime":1689.689,"endTime":1691.16,"body":"change the color of the cards."},{"startTime":1691.393,"endTime":1692.868,"body":"not in the on hold or block column."},{"startTime":1692.868,"endTime":1694.518,"body":"I don't like the column approach at all."},{"startTime":1694.518,"endTime":1698.077,"body":"Yeah so I, I eliminate the column,"},{"startTime":1694.518,"endTime":1698.077,"body":"but for me, something can be blocked"},{"startTime":1698.435,"endTime":1700.981,"body":"anywhere it can, yeah, it can be"},{"startTime":1698.435,"endTime":1700.981,"body":"blocked and still be in the backlog."},{"startTime":1701.031,"endTime":1702.156,"body":"So it's new but blocked."},{"startTime":1702.206,"endTime":1702.606,"body":"Sure can."},{"startTime":1702.706,"endTime":1706.264,"body":"So I change the color of that"},{"startTime":1702.706,"endTime":1706.264,"body":"card so that, to your point, every"},{"startTime":1706.264,"endTime":1707.689,"body":"day the, the team can see that."},{"startTime":1707.739,"endTime":1707.964,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1708.014,"endTime":1709.889,"body":"If it's in the news, it's less"},{"startTime":1708.014,"endTime":1709.889,"body":"of a consequence, but it's"},{"startTime":1709.889,"endTime":1711.339,"body":"just there for, for knowledge."},{"startTime":1711.489,"endTime":1713.264,"body":"But if it's not in the new"},{"startTime":1711.489,"endTime":1713.264,"body":"call and the team can look at"},{"startTime":1713.264,"endTime":1714.852,"body":"that and say, This is blocked."},{"startTime":1714.927,"endTime":1715.677,"body":"Why is this blocked?"},{"startTime":1715.677,"endTime":1715.802,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1715.852,"endTime":1719.735,"body":"Right having almost 21 items in"},{"startTime":1715.852,"endTime":1719.735,"body":"the block column is, or on hold,"},{"startTime":1719.735,"endTime":1723.618,"body":"whatever, same thing that is just  an"},{"startTime":1719.735,"endTime":1723.618,"body":"abuse of the, of the actual board."},{"startTime":1723.623,"endTime":1723.843,"body":"I think."},{"startTime":1723.843,"endTime":1727.543,"body":"So that's, that's a classic example"},{"startTime":1723.843,"endTime":1727.543,"body":"of a team that keeps starting"},{"startTime":1727.668,"endTime":1729.793,"body":"and you have a bottle bottleneck"},{"startTime":1727.668,"endTime":1729.793,"body":"forming in the on hold column."},{"startTime":1730.068,"endTime":1731.518,"body":"That can also happen"},{"startTime":1730.068,"endTime":1731.518,"body":"with the active column."},{"startTime":1731.543,"endTime":1732.968,"body":"They just don't bother blocking it."},{"startTime":1732.993,"endTime":1734.493,"body":"They just say, oh, well"},{"startTime":1732.993,"endTime":1734.493,"body":"I can't progress that."},{"startTime":1734.643,"endTime":1735.993,"body":"I'll just pull something"},{"startTime":1734.643,"endTime":1735.993,"body":"else in to work on."},{"startTime":1736.135,"endTime":1736.368,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1736.768,"endTime":1738.918,"body":"And that's what obviously we should"},{"startTime":1736.768,"endTime":1738.918,"body":"all be striving to eliminate."},{"startTime":1738.923,"endTime":1741.268,"body":"So we have flow across from left to right."},{"startTime":1741.806,"endTime":1744.631,"body":"And the flow should be like"},{"startTime":1741.806,"endTime":1744.631,"body":"water, not like, like molasses."},{"startTime":1744.631,"endTime":1744.806,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1744.831,"endTime":1745.256,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":1745.739,"endTime":1749.214,"body":"The other thing for blocked that I've"},{"startTime":1745.739,"endTime":1749.214,"body":"dealt with as well is the team will"},{"startTime":1749.214,"endTime":1751.673,"body":"say something's blocked because another"},{"startTime":1749.214,"endTime":1751.673,"body":"developer's working, like another"},{"startTime":1751.673,"endTime":1754.664,"body":"developer on the team is working"},{"startTime":1751.673,"endTime":1754.664,"body":"on another piece kind of what I was"},{"startTime":1754.664,"endTime":1757.639,"body":"talking about before is like, well, that"},{"startTime":1754.664,"endTime":1757.639,"body":"developer's working on the backend api"},{"startTime":1757.639,"endTime":1760.814,"body":"and until they're completely done with all"},{"startTime":1757.639,"endTime":1760.814,"body":"the endpoints of the backend api, we're"},{"startTime":1760.814,"endTime":1762.039,"body":"not even gonna start on the front end."},{"startTime":1762.264,"endTime":1765.964,"body":"And, and like my response, my product"},{"startTime":1762.264,"endTime":1765.964,"body":"response is like, like getting the"},{"startTime":1765.964,"endTime":1768.139,"body":"site launched is the top priority."},{"startTime":1768.398,"endTime":1772.098,"body":"even if the form to order the car only"},{"startTime":1768.398,"endTime":1772.098,"body":"lets you order a black car because"},{"startTime":1772.098,"endTime":1773.548,"body":"you're faking out the response for that."},{"startTime":1774.173,"endTime":1777.023,"body":"I, I need the webpage up because"},{"startTime":1774.173,"endTime":1777.023,"body":"the users don't care about the api."},{"startTime":1777.023,"endTime":1782.823,"body":"The user not ordering a car by pulling"},{"startTime":1777.023,"endTime":1782.823,"body":"up Postman and . We should be hilarious."},{"startTime":1782.823,"endTime":1783.698,"body":"That'd be hilarious."},{"startTime":1783.748,"endTime":1784.948,"body":"But like, they're not doing that."},{"startTime":1784.948,"endTime":1785.998,"body":"Like they're going to the web front end."},{"startTime":1786.039,"endTime":1788.373,"body":"The development team equivalent of"},{"startTime":1786.039,"endTime":1788.373,"body":"this like kind of what we're talking"},{"startTime":1788.373,"endTime":1791.123,"body":"about here, the, the leadership"},{"startTime":1788.373,"endTime":1791.123,"body":"problem of starting things."},{"startTime":1791.273,"endTime":1793.923,"body":"Not, not not finishing things,"},{"startTime":1791.273,"endTime":1793.923,"body":"but starting a million things."},{"startTime":1794.248,"endTime":1796.323,"body":"The development team equivalent"},{"startTime":1794.248,"endTime":1796.323,"body":"here of what we're talking about."},{"startTime":1796.96,"endTime":1800.918,"body":"Would be I would never even put"},{"startTime":1796.96,"endTime":1800.918,"body":"up the, the first bit of a webpage"},{"startTime":1801.143,"endTime":1805.568,"body":"until the entire backend API for"},{"startTime":1801.143,"endTime":1805.568,"body":"every bit of ordering the car is"},{"startTime":1805.768,"endTime":1808.977,"body":"up and running and, and, and can be"},{"startTime":1805.768,"endTime":1808.977,"body":"exercised via backend test or whatever."},{"startTime":1809.252,"endTime":1811.502,"body":"And then I wouldn't even start"},{"startTime":1809.252,"endTime":1811.502,"body":"on the front end like, ah, no,"},{"startTime":1811.502,"endTime":1812.477,"body":"no, no, that's not good enough."},{"startTime":1812.535,"endTime":1813.285,"body":"That's not good at all."},{"startTime":1813.46,"endTime":1817.11,"body":"Like, I, I would rather you"},{"startTime":1813.46,"endTime":1817.11,"body":"fake me through the demo, right?"},{"startTime":1817.26,"endTime":1819.81,"body":"The whole demo than working this way."},{"startTime":1819.81,"endTime":1822.606,"body":"So if you're saying like, oh, well"},{"startTime":1819.81,"endTime":1822.606,"body":"the, the, the front end deploying"},{"startTime":1822.61,"endTime":1826.106,"body":"the front end website is blocked"},{"startTime":1822.61,"endTime":1826.106,"body":"because every bit of the backend"},{"startTime":1826.131,"endTime":1827.806,"body":"API that serves it is not ready yet."},{"startTime":1828.106,"endTime":1830.081,"body":"Again, that's not blocked to me."},{"startTime":1830.481,"endTime":1832.581,"body":"It's not, now you can, you"},{"startTime":1830.481,"endTime":1832.581,"body":"can call in an impediment."},{"startTime":1832.731,"endTime":1835.681,"body":"I, I would argue that like, it's probably,"},{"startTime":1832.731,"endTime":1835.681,"body":"I'm not probably using a great example"},{"startTime":1835.681,"endTime":1838.173,"body":"that's probably not even really an"},{"startTime":1835.681,"endTime":1838.173,"body":"impediment now impediment here would"},{"startTime":1838.173,"endTime":1841.814,"body":"be this stuff is only available until"},{"startTime":1838.173,"endTime":1841.814,"body":"we get someone to open a firewall, port"},{"startTime":1841.814,"endTime":1843.789,"body":"production so external users can see it."},{"startTime":1844.514,"endTime":1845.764,"body":"That'd be like an impediment,"},{"startTime":1844.514,"endTime":1845.764,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1845.764,"endTime":1849.039,"body":"Like somebody that we don't control,"},{"startTime":1845.764,"endTime":1849.039,"body":"somebody we don't control on"},{"startTime":1849.039,"endTime":1850.439,"body":"our team doing something for us."},{"startTime":1850.439,"endTime":1851.089,"body":"You know, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1851.314,"endTime":1851.839,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1852.214,"endTime":1853.014,"body":"Yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":1853.189,"endTime":1855.931,"body":"You know, I think people need"},{"startTime":1853.189,"endTime":1855.931,"body":"to get their mindset around not"},{"startTime":1856.206,"endTime":1858.056,"body":"waiting to finish everything."},{"startTime":1858.081,"endTime":1858.281,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1858.631,"endTime":1861.731,"body":"Um before progressing and this,"},{"startTime":1858.631,"endTime":1861.731,"body":"this is that old discussion"},{"startTime":1861.735,"endTime":1862.831,"body":"we've had before on a podcast."},{"startTime":1863.598,"endTime":1864.681,"body":"Slicing the work vertically."},{"startTime":1864.681,"endTime":1866.906,"body":"So to your point, get the website up."},{"startTime":1867.006,"endTime":1868.531,"body":"If it has one thing on it, fine."},{"startTime":1868.531,"endTime":1870.956,"body":"Get it up, put one thing on, and then"},{"startTime":1868.531,"endTime":1870.956,"body":"over time put more and more things"},{"startTime":1870.956,"endTime":1873.331,"body":"on actually, and, and I just thought"},{"startTime":1870.956,"endTime":1873.331,"body":"of the real, a real impediment,"},{"startTime":1873.431,"endTime":1874.556,"body":"like an impeded versus a blocker."},{"startTime":1874.556,"endTime":1875.031,"body":"A real impediment."},{"startTime":1875.231,"endTime":1875.956,"body":"A real impediment."},{"startTime":1875.96,"endTime":1878.439,"body":"Like I, I was talking about the data"},{"startTime":1875.96,"endTime":1878.439,"body":"platform before I just remembered."},{"startTime":1878.523,"endTime":1881.398,"body":"We were trying to get access to a"},{"startTime":1878.523,"endTime":1881.398,"body":"different data system to pull data into."},{"startTime":1881.673,"endTime":1885.406,"body":"And we had to get approval to"},{"startTime":1881.673,"endTime":1885.406,"body":"pull data in, but even like there"},{"startTime":1885.406,"endTime":1887.431,"body":"were forms and people that gave"},{"startTime":1885.406,"endTime":1887.431,"body":"approval and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1887.431,"endTime":1890.323,"body":"Sure but even if we didn't get the"},{"startTime":1887.431,"endTime":1890.323,"body":"approval, we knew what the response"},{"startTime":1890.327,"endTime":1892.452,"body":"from that system looked like so we"},{"startTime":1890.327,"endTime":1892.452,"body":"could fake it but even if we didn't,"},{"startTime":1893.114,"endTime":1895.189,"body":"even after we got the approval,"},{"startTime":1893.114,"endTime":1895.189,"body":"we still had to get credentials."},{"startTime":1895.189,"endTime":1898.589,"body":"And so, so we cleared the blocker"},{"startTime":1895.189,"endTime":1898.589,"body":"the blocker of, we don't have"},{"startTime":1898.589,"endTime":1899.814,"body":"approval to work in that system."},{"startTime":1900.389,"endTime":1902.939,"body":"And then we got the approval to work in"},{"startTime":1900.389,"endTime":1902.939,"body":"the system, but then, Another blocker."},{"startTime":1902.939,"endTime":1906.389,"body":"Another blocker was we had to wait till we"},{"startTime":1902.939,"endTime":1906.389,"body":"got credentials to actually pull from the,"},{"startTime":1906.556,"endTime":1909.114,"body":"the, whatever the, I don't remember if it"},{"startTime":1906.556,"endTime":1909.114,"body":"was a production version or test system."},{"startTime":1909.114,"endTime":1909.739,"body":"I don't remember what they had."},{"startTime":1909.739,"endTime":1910.664,"body":"I think they had a test system."},{"startTime":1910.689,"endTime":1911.214,"body":"Maybe a staging."},{"startTime":1911.239,"endTime":1911.589,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1911.589,"endTime":1914.068,"body":"Like something like that but anyway,"},{"startTime":1911.589,"endTime":1914.068,"body":"but like until we got the correct"},{"startTime":1914.068,"endTime":1917.693,"body":"credentials, we couldn't, so it was like,"},{"startTime":1914.068,"endTime":1917.693,"body":"oh, we can do all of our work in stage."},{"startTime":1917.968,"endTime":1921.743,"body":"I was like, well, I don't care about stage"},{"startTime":1917.968,"endTime":1921.743,"body":"until it's in prod, until people actually"},{"startTime":1921.748,"endTime":1923.285,"body":"pull fields in, in the global catalog."},{"startTime":1923.585,"endTime":1927.423,"body":"Like I, as a product person, I got nothing"},{"startTime":1923.585,"endTime":1927.423,"body":"to show so I I don't care about stage."},{"startTime":1927.473,"endTime":1931.023,"body":"So like, are we blocked or"},{"startTime":1927.473,"endTime":1931.023,"body":"is that just an impediment?"},{"startTime":1931.323,"endTime":1933.823,"body":"Cuz again, we can, we can do"},{"startTime":1931.323,"endTime":1933.823,"body":"a demo, we can fake that data."},{"startTime":1934.048,"endTime":1934.123,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1934.956,"endTime":1935.827,"body":"We can fake the data."},{"startTime":1935.827,"endTime":1938.077,"body":"It doesn't, I think there's nothing"},{"startTime":1935.827,"endTime":1938.077,"body":"wrong with that as long as you're"},{"startTime":1938.081,"endTime":1939.252,"body":"up front and say, look, this is not."},{"startTime":1940.302,"endTime":1941.677,"body":"You know, authentication"},{"startTime":1940.302,"endTime":1941.677,"body":"or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":1941.677,"endTime":1943.252,"body":"This is fake data in the expert."},{"startTime":1943.252,"endTime":1944.477,"body":"We'll get there and that's fine."},{"startTime":1944.602,"endTime":1945.302,"body":"That's a great example."},{"startTime":1945.302,"endTime":1948.727,"body":"Like fake data is a great example of,"},{"startTime":1945.302,"endTime":1948.727,"body":"when I say fake, I'm, I mean, I don't"},{"startTime":1948.727,"endTime":1951.552,"body":"mean fake as in like we just made"},{"startTime":1948.727,"endTime":1951.552,"body":"all the columns and all the data up."},{"startTime":1951.556,"endTime":1954.552,"body":"I mean fake as in we're using"},{"startTime":1951.556,"endTime":1954.552,"body":"stage data and we're representing"},{"startTime":1954.552,"endTime":1955.852,"body":"it as it would be prod."},{"startTime":1955.852,"endTime":1956.052,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1956.135,"endTime":1957.552,"body":"Because we don't have pro credentials yet."},{"startTime":1957.902,"endTime":1962.777,"body":"But assuming the stage and pro systems"},{"startTime":1957.902,"endTime":1962.777,"body":"have the same fields, credentials,"},{"startTime":1962.877,"endTime":1963.752,"body":"whatever, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1963.752,"endTime":1967.977,"body":"Uh, data, basically the data structure"},{"startTime":1963.752,"endTime":1967.977,"body":"looks the same like it's, I guess"},{"startTime":1968.177,"endTime":1972.777,"body":"we're, it's an impediment to moving to"},{"startTime":1968.177,"endTime":1972.777,"body":"production that we have yet to resolve."},{"startTime":1973.127,"endTime":1974.477,"body":"But we can do a demo."},{"startTime":1975.002,"endTime":1975.202,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1975.202,"endTime":1978.927,"body":"I'd say maybe reframe that so to say"},{"startTime":1975.202,"endTime":1978.927,"body":"this is not impediment cuz we know"},{"startTime":1978.927,"endTime":1980.685,"body":"what to do we just haven't done it."},{"startTime":1980.71,"endTime":1981.335,"body":"We know what to do."},{"startTime":1981.335,"endTime":1982.585,"body":"We need to do X, y, Z."},{"startTime":1982.81,"endTime":1985.643,"body":"So it is really a dependency"},{"startTime":1982.81,"endTime":1985.643,"body":"that's at the end of the day Yeah."},{"startTime":1985.643,"endTime":1988.368,"body":"I, I think this, this word"},{"startTime":1985.643,"endTime":1988.368,"body":"blocker impediment, they, they"},{"startTime":1988.368,"endTime":1990.118,"body":"raise way too often by teams."},{"startTime":1990.143,"endTime":1990.268,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1990.343,"endTime":1993.489,"body":"And, and a lot of times team members"},{"startTime":1990.343,"endTime":1993.489,"body":"aren't even doing anything about"},{"startTime":1993.564,"endTime":1995.848,"body":"the said blocker or impediment."},{"startTime":1995.848,"endTime":1997.681,"body":"They just say I, I don't"},{"startTime":1995.848,"endTime":1997.681,"body":"know what to do here."},{"startTime":1997.681,"endTime":1999.881,"body":"So I'll call it a blocker and"},{"startTime":1997.681,"endTime":1999.881,"body":"say over to use scrum master."},{"startTime":2000.031,"endTime":2000.231,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2000.456,"endTime":2000.656,"body":"Right"},{"startTime":2000.914,"endTime":2004.989,"body":"so I think if you're a scrum master"},{"startTime":2000.914,"endTime":2004.989,"body":"listening to this or watching this, when a"},{"startTime":2004.989,"endTime":2007.439,"body":"team member says they have an impediment,"},{"startTime":2004.989,"endTime":2007.439,"body":"the first question you should ask them"},{"startTime":2007.443,"endTime":2008.564,"body":"is, what have you done to solve that?"},{"startTime":2008.589,"endTime":2011.573,"body":"Right and then come to me, don't"},{"startTime":2008.589,"endTime":2011.573,"body":"say I sent an email to Bob or Mary"},{"startTime":2011.598,"endTime":2012.998,"body":"that that's not taking action."},{"startTime":2013.048,"endTime":2013.148,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2013.206,"endTime":2015.461,"body":"I'm blocked on this item and"},{"startTime":2013.206,"endTime":2015.461,"body":"and so I'm just gonna pick"},{"startTime":2015.461,"endTime":2016.286,"body":"up the next one over to you."},{"startTime":2016.286,"endTime":2018.761,"body":"Om, now, now on your, on for your status."},{"startTime":2018.765,"endTime":2019.861,"body":"Om That's the norm."},{"startTime":2019.861,"endTime":2020.211,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2020.236,"endTime":2020.861,"body":"That's the normal one."},{"startTime":2020.861,"endTime":2021.536,"body":"That drives me crazy."},{"startTime":2021.536,"endTime":2022.686,"body":"I'm like, wait a minute,"},{"startTime":2021.536,"endTime":2022.686,"body":"wait a minute, wait a minute."},{"startTime":2022.711,"endTime":2023.686,"body":"If you're blocking, I'm blocked."},{"startTime":2023.686,"endTime":2027.186,"body":"If you're blocked on moving an item"},{"startTime":2023.686,"endTime":2027.186,"body":"forward, but whatever, like some"},{"startTime":2027.186,"endTime":2030.936,"body":"people might be like, Hey, dislike"},{"startTime":2027.186,"endTime":2030.936,"body":"this video because impediment"},{"startTime":2030.936,"endTime":2032.086,"body":"blocker, they mean the same to me."},{"startTime":2032.086,"endTime":2032.836,"body":"It doesn't really matter."},{"startTime":2032.836,"endTime":2034.986,"body":"Like, take ownership of it"},{"startTime":2032.836,"endTime":2034.986,"body":"home and go figure it out."},{"startTime":2035.577,"endTime":2036.277,"body":"I'm with you."},{"startTime":2036.677,"endTime":2037.977,"body":"I, I am on your side."},{"startTime":2037.977,"endTime":2039.402,"body":"I believe basically the same thing."},{"startTime":2039.444,"endTime":2041.944,"body":"If you have a blocker impediment,"},{"startTime":2039.444,"endTime":2041.944,"body":"something, basically a work item that"},{"startTime":2041.944,"endTime":2043.669,"body":"cannot move to the next status mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2044.744,"endTime":2047.144,"body":", you should stop and say,"},{"startTime":2044.744,"endTime":2047.144,"body":"Hey, I have a problem."},{"startTime":2047.444,"endTime":2048.544,"body":"Can anyone on the team help me out?"},{"startTime":2048.694,"endTime":2048.894,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2048.894,"endTime":2049.144,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2049.194,"endTime":2049.394,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2049.394,"endTime":2049.669,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2050.156,"endTime":2050.381,"body":"Mr."},{"startTime":2050.386,"endTime":2050.981,"body":"ScrumMaster, Mr."},{"startTime":2050.981,"endTime":2052.481,"body":"Scrum Master, nobody on"},{"startTime":2050.981,"endTime":2052.481,"body":"the team can help me out."},{"startTime":2052.906,"endTime":2055.606,"body":"So you and I, when the meeting's"},{"startTime":2052.906,"endTime":2055.606,"body":"over, let's put our head together."},{"startTime":2055.606,"endTime":2057.256,"body":"When the daily stamp's over, let's"},{"startTime":2055.606,"endTime":2057.256,"body":"put our head together, figure"},{"startTime":2057.256,"endTime":2058.406,"body":"out where we go from here, right?"},{"startTime":2059.381,"endTime":2060.156,"body":"Make a plan."},{"startTime":2060.773,"endTime":2061.631,"body":"Somebody do something, right?"},{"startTime":2061.931,"endTime":2062.681,"body":"Something happens."},{"startTime":2063.106,"endTime":2064.89,"body":"Scrum, master continual follow up."},{"startTime":2064.965,"endTime":2065.415,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2065.54,"endTime":2069.269,"body":"Uh until something happens or it doesn't"},{"startTime":2065.54,"endTime":2069.269,"body":"happen, eventually 24 hours will pass."},{"startTime":2069.269,"endTime":2070.544,"body":"You'll be back in the same spot tomorrow."},{"startTime":2070.594,"endTime":2071.369,"body":"Same question's gonna ask."},{"startTime":2071.369,"endTime":2074.331,"body":"If the same question gets asked and the"},{"startTime":2071.369,"endTime":2074.331,"body":"same problems for persisting and the scrum"},{"startTime":2074.331,"endTime":2076.706,"body":"master developer puts our heads together"},{"startTime":2074.331,"endTime":2076.706,"body":"and it's like, oh, we try to do whatever."},{"startTime":2076.706,"endTime":2079.131,"body":"Like now you need to be"},{"startTime":2076.706,"endTime":2079.131,"body":"thinking about like, okay, who"},{"startTime":2079.156,"endTime":2080.881,"body":"else can we ring into this?"},{"startTime":2080.881,"endTime":2084.906,"body":"Who else can we roll into this"},{"startTime":2080.881,"endTime":2084.906,"body":"discussion if we can't figure it out now?"},{"startTime":2084.906,"endTime":2087.356,"body":"Like that circle needs to keep"},{"startTime":2084.906,"endTime":2087.356,"body":"expanding and expanding and"},{"startTime":2087.361,"endTime":2088.435,"body":"expanding Escalation time."},{"startTime":2088.435,"endTime":2091.163,"body":"Basically like your full-time"},{"startTime":2088.435,"endTime":2091.163,"body":"job now, between now and when"},{"startTime":2091.163,"endTime":2092.538,"body":"that impediment is resolved Yeah."},{"startTime":2092.713,"endTime":2094.288,"body":"Is resolving the impediment."},{"startTime":2094.292,"endTime":2097.513,"body":"That's, that's your number one task"},{"startTime":2094.292,"endTime":2097.513,"body":"now, is to focus on de blocking that."},{"startTime":2097.588,"endTime":2097.913,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2097.917,"endTime":2098.888,"body":"Unblocking, unblocking."},{"startTime":2098.888,"endTime":2099.555,"body":"That I like."},{"startTime":2099.713,"endTime":2100.563,"body":"I like de blocking."},{"startTime":2100.563,"endTime":2100.688,"body":"De blocking."},{"startTime":2100.688,"endTime":2102.213,"body":"I don't where where that"},{"startTime":2100.688,"endTime":2102.213,"body":"came from, but yeah."},{"startTime":2102.213,"endTime":2103.438,"body":"So I agree with you."},{"startTime":2103.438,"endTime":2105.888,"body":"Don't, don't neglect it and"},{"startTime":2103.438,"endTime":2105.888,"body":"keep saying unblocked still."},{"startTime":2105.913,"endTime":2106.013,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2106.013,"endTime":2108.396,"body":"Don't move on to something else like"},{"startTime":2106.013,"endTime":2108.396,"body":"the minute you move on to something you"},{"startTime":2108.396,"endTime":2111.096,"body":"like, oh, this is difficult, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":2108.396,"endTime":2111.096,"body":"move on to something less difficult."},{"startTime":2111.096,"endTime":2112.146,"body":"Like you've take an easy way out."},{"startTime":2112.146,"endTime":2112.321,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2112.321,"endTime":2113.646,"body":"You're never gonna get back to it, man."},{"startTime":2113.646,"endTime":2117.221,"body":"It's not gonna get resolved without"},{"startTime":2113.646,"endTime":2117.221,"body":"constant effort from you and or your team,"},{"startTime":2117.221,"endTime":2118.896,"body":"or team members or scrum master, whoever."},{"startTime":2119.584,"endTime":2119.984,"body":"Like, why?"},{"startTime":2120.084,"endTime":2122.209,"body":"It's not, why would you"},{"startTime":2120.084,"endTime":2122.209,"body":"think it's gonna get like"},{"startTime":2122.734,"endTime":2125.484,"body":"That's, that's, that's, that's"},{"startTime":2122.734,"endTime":2125.484,"body":"this culture of throwing things"},{"startTime":2125.484,"endTime":2127.709,"body":"over the fence and hoping"},{"startTime":2125.484,"endTime":2127.709,"body":"somebody else is gonna fix them."},{"startTime":2127.709,"endTime":2131.075,"body":"That Scrum tries to get around."},{"startTime":2131.7,"endTime":2134.025,"body":"That's why we have principles,"},{"startTime":2131.7,"endTime":2134.025,"body":"that's why we have values and stuff."},{"startTime":2134.075,"endTime":2134.575,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2134.575,"endTime":2137.375,"body":"And by, by doing what a lot of people"},{"startTime":2134.575,"endTime":2137.375,"body":"do, which is I'm still blocked, so"},{"startTime":2137.375,"endTime":2138.35,"body":"I'm gonna pick up something else."},{"startTime":2138.725,"endTime":2142.459,"body":"That's how you end up with those"},{"startTime":2138.725,"endTime":2142.459,"body":"blocked columns populating, right, yeah."},{"startTime":2142.463,"endTime":2143.609,"body":"And, and getting piled on."},{"startTime":2144.009,"endTime":2145.259,"body":"So yeah, just avoid that."},{"startTime":2145.342,"endTime":2146.742,"body":"What do you think about the concept of."},{"startTime":2147.621,"endTime":2149.655,"body":"Streams of work for a development team."},{"startTime":2149.655,"endTime":2152.738,"body":"So the development team will start a"},{"startTime":2149.655,"endTime":2152.738,"body":"sprint and they'll say, Hey I got, we"},{"startTime":2152.738,"endTime":2154.805,"body":"we wanna implement story X and Y and Z."},{"startTime":2155.03,"endTime":2158.396,"body":"And so om will take story X and Brian"},{"startTime":2155.03,"endTime":2158.396,"body":"will take story y and developer."},{"startTime":2158.396,"endTime":2162.271,"body":"Bob will take story Z and we'll all be"},{"startTime":2158.396,"endTime":2162.271,"body":"working on separate streams of work,"},{"startTime":2162.271,"endTime":2166.621,"body":"which, which, which may be contributing"},{"startTime":2162.271,"endTime":2166.621,"body":"to the same feature, but also maybe"},{"startTime":2166.671,"endTime":2168.546,"body":"not even related to each other."},{"startTime":2168.588,"endTime":2172.913,"body":"So basically the idea is rather than"},{"startTime":2168.588,"endTime":2172.913,"body":"all looking at one story one, one,"},{"startTime":2172.913,"endTime":2175.813,"body":"like rather than swarming or peer"},{"startTime":2172.913,"endTime":2175.813,"body":"programming, swarming, whatever you"},{"startTime":2175.813,"endTime":2179.855,"body":"wanna call it, rather than all working"},{"startTime":2175.813,"endTime":2179.855,"body":"on one thing at the same time we're all"},{"startTime":2179.88,"endTime":2183.58,"body":"going off our separate areas, working"},{"startTime":2179.88,"endTime":2183.58,"body":"individually on separate sets of code."},{"startTime":2184.867,"endTime":2185.092,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2185.092,"endTime":2187.592,"body":"So I think what we need to do"},{"startTime":2185.092,"endTime":2187.592,"body":"here is distinguish between the"},{"startTime":2187.592,"endTime":2188.817,"body":"two things you, you just said."},{"startTime":2189.042,"endTime":2192.267,"body":"You know, if you are working on,"},{"startTime":2189.042,"endTime":2192.267,"body":"if multiple people are working on"},{"startTime":2192.767,"endTime":2197.117,"body":"pieces of the product that will"},{"startTime":2192.767,"endTime":2197.117,"body":"come together and it's a focused"},{"startTime":2197.117,"endTime":2198.767,"body":"effort for at the team level."},{"startTime":2198.942,"endTime":2199.867,"body":"That is one scenario."},{"startTime":2199.867,"endTime":2202.217,"body":"That's, yeah the other scenario is"},{"startTime":2199.867,"endTime":2202.217,"body":"everybody's working on different things."},{"startTime":2202.217,"endTime":2203.517,"body":"You're not even a team at that point."},{"startTime":2203.617,"endTime":2204.017,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2204.017,"endTime":2205.542,"body":"You should not be a team in that case."},{"startTime":2205.542,"endTime":2206.092,"body":"You're gang."},{"startTime":2206.109,"endTime":2206.675,"body":"You're a gang."},{"startTime":2206.675,"endTime":2207.142,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2207.146,"endTime":2213.267,"body":"Scrum gang . Ah, every, every"},{"startTime":2207.146,"endTime":2213.267,"body":"podcast I get that into is a win."},{"startTime":2213.592,"endTime":2214.142,"body":"That is a win."},{"startTime":2214.267,"endTime":2215.017,"body":"Scrum gang."},{"startTime":2215.067,"endTime":2215.642,"body":"Scrum gang."},{"startTime":2215.917,"endTime":2218.775,"body":"But if it's the former, one of the"},{"startTime":2215.917,"endTime":2218.775,"body":"things you really need to be mindful"},{"startTime":2218.775,"endTime":2220.025,"body":"of is will all the pieces fit?"},{"startTime":2220.03,"endTime":2222.7,"body":"It's like saying, Brian, you"},{"startTime":2220.03,"endTime":2222.7,"body":"take the corner of this puzzle."},{"startTime":2222.7,"endTime":2224.975,"body":"We don't know what the end thing's gonna"},{"startTime":2222.7,"endTime":2224.975,"body":"look like, but you go start putting the"},{"startTime":2224.975,"endTime":2226.475,"body":"pieces together of this jigsaw over there."},{"startTime":2226.85,"endTime":2227.925,"body":"Just do the bottom right corner."},{"startTime":2227.95,"endTime":2230.95,"body":"Yeah bob does the top left corner"},{"startTime":2227.95,"endTime":2230.95,"body":"and I do the the bottom left corner"},{"startTime":2230.95,"endTime":2232.2,"body":"or whatever, and the other corner."},{"startTime":2232.2,"endTime":2234.175,"body":"We're just gonna say, whoever has"},{"startTime":2232.2,"endTime":2234.175,"body":"time, just go ahead and do that"},{"startTime":2234.18,"endTime":2235.5,"body":"in your own time by yourself."},{"startTime":2235.675,"endTime":2236.567,"body":"Yeah whoever finishes first."},{"startTime":2236.767,"endTime":2237.067,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2237.142,"endTime":2238.042,"body":"That's your, that's your reward."},{"startTime":2238.042,"endTime":2238.542,"body":"More work."},{"startTime":2238.546,"endTime":2240.717,"body":"That's more, but, but how"},{"startTime":2238.546,"endTime":2240.717,"body":"is that puzzle gonna look?"},{"startTime":2241.117,"endTime":2241.367,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2241.367,"endTime":2242.617,"body":"That's the question I have."},{"startTime":2242.867,"endTime":2245.821,"body":"So you have to collaborate"},{"startTime":2242.867,"endTime":2245.821,"body":"to use that word."},{"startTime":2245.821,"endTime":2246.971,"body":"I'm gonna use it only once today."},{"startTime":2247.096,"endTime":2248.913,"body":"Only once, but you have"},{"startTime":2247.096,"endTime":2248.913,"body":"to work with one another."},{"startTime":2248.913,"endTime":2251.713,"body":"You have to understand that, because"},{"startTime":2248.913,"endTime":2251.713,"body":"then collectively, the thing that is"},{"startTime":2251.713,"endTime":2257.488,"body":"kind of not quantifiable, un quantifiable"},{"startTime":2251.713,"endTime":2257.488,"body":"is the knowledge that everybody gets."},{"startTime":2257.538,"endTime":2257.613,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2257.938,"endTime":2258.746,"body":"about what we're trying to build."},{"startTime":2258.771,"endTime":2258.9,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2259.834,"endTime":2260.875,"body":"Learnings from one person."},{"startTime":2261.188,"endTime":2263.363,"body":"Are immediately available"},{"startTime":2261.188,"endTime":2263.363,"body":"to somebody else if you're"},{"startTime":2263.363,"endTime":2264.663,"body":"continuously speaking with another."},{"startTime":2264.663,"endTime":2264.713,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2264.78,"endTime":2266.505,"body":"So yeah, you really have to do that."},{"startTime":2266.555,"endTime":2268.155,"body":"Otherwise you're gonna suffer silos."},{"startTime":2268.43,"endTime":2268.73,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2268.73,"endTime":2270.355,"body":"You'll build something"},{"startTime":2268.73,"endTime":2270.355,"body":"that looks different."},{"startTime":2270.73,"endTime":2274.067,"body":"You'll end up with a a square hole"},{"startTime":2270.73,"endTime":2274.067,"body":"in a round bag, square hole, square."},{"startTime":2274.317,"endTime":2275.217,"body":"That makes sense the other way."},{"startTime":2275.567,"endTime":2277.525,"body":"No, that does make sense"},{"startTime":2275.567,"endTime":2277.525,"body":"actually no, I had it right."},{"startTime":2279.325,"endTime":2279.95,"body":"a square hole."},{"startTime":2279.955,"endTime":2280.675,"body":"It's all about, it's all about size."},{"startTime":2280.7,"endTime":2282.075,"body":"When you have a square hole Yeah."},{"startTime":2282.25,"endTime":2284.225,"body":"Around, around peg will fit."},{"startTime":2284.225,"endTime":2286.85,"body":"If it's small enough . So that,"},{"startTime":2284.225,"endTime":2286.85,"body":"or if the hammer's big enough."},{"startTime":2287.321,"endTime":2290.838,"body":"So, so you have to, I mean, otherwise you,"},{"startTime":2287.321,"endTime":2290.838,"body":"you're not gonna end up with a product."},{"startTime":2291.046,"endTime":2294.721,"body":"You're gonna end up with a Franken"},{"startTime":2291.046,"endTime":2294.721,"body":"product that doesn't even look"},{"startTime":2294.721,"endTime":2295.846,"body":"like what you want it to look like."},{"startTime":2295.846,"endTime":2297.471,"body":"But it's something"},{"startTime":2295.846,"endTime":2297.471,"body":"that's not what you want."},{"startTime":2297.746,"endTime":2298.446,"body":"Because now guess what?"},{"startTime":2298.471,"endTime":2299.38,"body":"Now you have huge tech debt."},{"startTime":2299.814,"endTime":2303.798,"body":"this stream's work thing is that's, that's"},{"startTime":2299.814,"endTime":2303.798,"body":"the weirdest thing across my career that"},{"startTime":2303.798,"endTime":2308.198,"body":"I've seen because  it's so common among"},{"startTime":2303.798,"endTime":2308.198,"body":"development teams is the think it is."},{"startTime":2308.198,"endTime":2309.398,"body":"You know what really doesn't help though?"},{"startTime":2309.398,"endTime":2313.048,"body":"Most of the ALM tools"},{"startTime":2309.398,"endTime":2313.048,"body":"propagate this stupid idea."},{"startTime":2313.098,"endTime":2315.998,"body":"They, by having this thing"},{"startTime":2313.098,"endTime":2315.998,"body":"called, assigned to, yeah, you're"},{"startTime":2315.998,"endTime":2317.598,"body":"right so it's assigned to Bob."},{"startTime":2317.798,"endTime":2319.748,"body":"Well, okay, Bob, it's all yours."},{"startTime":2319.773,"endTime":2320.423,"body":"That's all you."},{"startTime":2320.473,"endTime":2321.348,"body":"It's assigned to home."},{"startTime":2321.348,"endTime":2321.873,"body":"It's all me."},{"startTime":2321.948,"endTime":2322.323,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2322.423,"endTime":2322.873,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2323.223,"endTime":2327.123,"body":"It's almost as if your role on and to the"},{"startTime":2323.223,"endTime":2327.123,"body":"team should determine your visibility."},{"startTime":2327.735,"endTime":2329.61,"body":"To the assignee statuses."},{"startTime":2329.785,"endTime":2331.01,"body":"So like think about this for a second."},{"startTime":2331.01,"endTime":2338.427,"body":"If like, I'm using Jira and in Jira you"},{"startTime":2331.01,"endTime":2338.427,"body":"have stories and you have subtasks, right?"},{"startTime":2338.977,"endTime":2345.702,"body":"So subtasks can, and usually are"},{"startTime":2338.977,"endTime":2345.702,"body":"broken up by developer, but they can"},{"startTime":2345.702,"endTime":2348.052,"body":"still swarm on the subtasks, okay?"},{"startTime":2348.127,"endTime":2354.127,"body":"Right but the stories, the stories are"},{"startTime":2348.127,"endTime":2354.127,"body":"assigned to the entire team to complete,"},{"startTime":2354.127,"endTime":2356.002,"body":"cuz because the team commits to a story."},{"startTime":2356.102,"endTime":2361.952,"body":"So really the assignee on a story should"},{"startTime":2356.102,"endTime":2361.952,"body":"just be your team and your current sprint."},{"startTime":2362.152,"endTime":2362.227,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2362.227,"endTime":2362.902,"body":"If you think about it, right?"},{"startTime":2362.927,"endTime":2362.977,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2362.977,"endTime":2364.577,"body":"That's the assignee, the"},{"startTime":2362.977,"endTime":2364.577,"body":"team in your current sprint"},{"startTime":2364.985,"endTime":2367.11,"body":"first of all, if you're not on"},{"startTime":2364.985,"endTime":2367.11,"body":"the team, you really shouldn't"},{"startTime":2367.11,"endTime":2367.91,"body":"see any of the subtask."},{"startTime":2368.043,"endTime":2370.468,"body":"maybe if we have to give somebody"},{"startTime":2368.043,"endTime":2370.468,"body":"something, you just get like a"},{"startTime":2370.468,"endTime":2373.268,"body":"little, a little bar that, as you"},{"startTime":2370.468,"endTime":2373.268,"body":"know, if you have seven subtasks,"},{"startTime":2373.268,"endTime":2374.468,"body":"the bar moves in little ticks."},{"startTime":2374.468,"endTime":2374.843,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2374.843,"endTime":2375.618,"body":"As straight line, right?"},{"startTime":2375.618,"endTime":2375.927,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2375.931,"endTime":2376.843,"body":"Subtask get closed, right?"},{"startTime":2376.843,"endTime":2379.093,"body":"The little bar becomes more"},{"startTime":2376.843,"endTime":2379.093,"body":"blue or whatever, as the"},{"startTime":2379.098,"endTime":2379.718,"body":"subtask role wants, right?"},{"startTime":2379.993,"endTime":2382.943,"body":"But if you're not on that team, first"},{"startTime":2379.993,"endTime":2382.943,"body":"of all, if you're not on the team,"},{"startTime":2383.093,"endTime":2385.693,"body":"you, you don't see anything except"},{"startTime":2383.093,"endTime":2385.693,"body":"the blue bar moving for subtest."},{"startTime":2385.968,"endTime":2389.418,"body":"If you're on the team, then I guess you"},{"startTime":2385.968,"endTime":2389.418,"body":"could split subtests up by team members."},{"startTime":2389.418,"endTime":2393.56,"body":"And, but, but only for the purpose of,"},{"startTime":2389.418,"endTime":2393.56,"body":"only for the purpose of who is the main"},{"startTime":2393.564,"endTime":2396.185,"body":"developer who's kind of leading the, you"},{"startTime":2393.564,"endTime":2396.185,"body":"know what I mean, getting things together."},{"startTime":2396.185,"endTime":2399.535,"body":"Cause usually it's one person and everyone"},{"startTime":2396.185,"endTime":2399.535,"body":"else can kinda contribute but even that,"},{"startTime":2399.539,"endTime":2403.36,"body":"I'm, I'm willing to be flexible on even"},{"startTime":2399.539,"endTime":2403.36,"body":"that, to say maybe you don't need that."},{"startTime":2403.543,"endTime":2404.368,"body":"The point is the point."},{"startTime":2405.76,"endTime":2408.11,"body":"The higher you are up in leadership,"},{"startTime":2405.76,"endTime":2408.11,"body":"the less names that you will"},{"startTime":2408.11,"endTime":2409.36,"body":"see on individual work items."},{"startTime":2409.36,"endTime":2411.41,"body":"because it doesn't matter to you."},{"startTime":2411.41,"endTime":2413.235,"body":"You should say, Hey, I"},{"startTime":2411.41,"endTime":2413.235,"body":"want to hand off this epic."},{"startTime":2413.235,"endTime":2415.71,"body":"Well, who do you hand off the epic to to"},{"startTime":2413.235,"endTime":2415.71,"body":"get broken down and broken into stories?"},{"startTime":2415.835,"endTime":2416.96,"body":"Well, you hand it off"},{"startTime":2415.835,"endTime":2416.96,"body":"to a product manager."},{"startTime":2417.11,"endTime":2419.935,"body":"So basically at the leadership"},{"startTime":2417.11,"endTime":2419.935,"body":"level, at the high level board"},{"startTime":2419.935,"endTime":2422.61,"body":"where you see epics, all you need"},{"startTime":2419.935,"endTime":2422.61,"body":"is the name of the product manager."},{"startTime":2423.01,"endTime":2425.385,"body":"Product managers are on"},{"startTime":2423.01,"endTime":2425.385,"body":"teams, so you should know the"},{"startTime":2425.385,"endTime":2426.81,"body":"team by the product manager."},{"startTime":2426.81,"endTime":2430.785,"body":"So you assign you leadership delegate"},{"startTime":2426.81,"endTime":2430.785,"body":"epics to product managers to run with."},{"startTime":2431.06,"endTime":2431.21,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2431.214,"endTime":2434.16,"body":"The product managers bring it to"},{"startTime":2431.214,"endTime":2434.16,"body":"teams and they bring, the what"},{"startTime":2434.585,"endTime":2436.885,"body":"that gets broken down into stories,"},{"startTime":2434.585,"endTime":2436.885,"body":"which they are still involved in."},{"startTime":2436.885,"endTime":2439.031,"body":"So they get to see a high level"},{"startTime":2436.885,"endTime":2439.031,"body":"what in the form of all the"},{"startTime":2439.031,"endTime":2440.956,"body":"stories that contribute up to their"},{"startTime":2439.031,"endTime":2440.956,"body":"epic that they're assigned to."},{"startTime":2440.956,"endTime":2442.106,"body":"So they're accountable."},{"startTime":2442.418,"endTime":2445.493,"body":"It's all this, so they're assigned"},{"startTime":2442.418,"endTime":2445.493,"body":"to all the stories cuz it's their"},{"startTime":2445.493,"endTime":2446.443,"body":"stories leading to their epic."},{"startTime":2446.443,"endTime":2447.643,"body":"So now their name's on it all."},{"startTime":2447.843,"endTime":2447.893,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2447.893,"endTime":2451.777,"body":"But then how it's being delivered, if"},{"startTime":2447.893,"endTime":2451.777,"body":"the product manager is also the product"},{"startTime":2451.781,"endTime":2455.402,"body":"owner who sits in the team, then they"},{"startTime":2451.781,"endTime":2455.402,"body":"can see the names on all the stories."},{"startTime":2455.402,"endTime":2459.927,"body":"But anybody else in the organization who"},{"startTime":2455.402,"endTime":2459.927,"body":"is not on that team can't see anything."},{"startTime":2460.06,"endTime":2461.66,"body":"That's the way the tool should work."},{"startTime":2461.71,"endTime":2464.739,"body":"It should, I've seen it work a different"},{"startTime":2461.71,"endTime":2464.739,"body":"way, but I like that a lot because"},{"startTime":2465.089,"endTime":2468.514,"body":"in organizations where the product"},{"startTime":2465.089,"endTime":2468.514,"body":"manager is the product owner, then"},{"startTime":2468.518,"endTime":2469.639,"body":"on the Epic, they have their name."},{"startTime":2469.639,"endTime":2472.564,"body":"So they can look up at leadership"},{"startTime":2469.639,"endTime":2472.564,"body":"and go, that's mine I've got three"},{"startTime":2472.568,"endTime":2473.706,"body":"teams working on that or whatever."},{"startTime":2473.706,"endTime":2473.707,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2473.914,"endTime":2477.864,"body":"At the teams level, if they're the PO"},{"startTime":2473.914,"endTime":2477.864,"body":"they can own the features, they would"},{"startTime":2477.864,"endTime":2481.006,"body":"be assigned to them perhaps but I"},{"startTime":2477.864,"endTime":2481.006,"body":"haven't seen that play out in practice."},{"startTime":2481.01,"endTime":2484.256,"body":"What I have seen on, on one team is every."},{"startTime":2485.018,"endTime":2488.418,"body":"User story was assigned to"},{"startTime":2485.018,"endTime":2488.418,"body":"the tech lead on that team."},{"startTime":2488.443,"endTime":2488.468,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":2488.868,"endTime":2492.168,"body":"It's, it's their name and then the"},{"startTime":2488.868,"endTime":2492.168,"body":"tasks are assigned to individual,"},{"startTime":2492.243,"endTime":2493.993,"body":"well own by, I should say."},{"startTime":2494.018,"endTime":2494.193,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2494.198,"endTime":2496.685,"body":"The creators of the tasks which"},{"startTime":2494.198,"endTime":2496.685,"body":"is anybody on the team to create a"},{"startTime":2496.698,"endTime":2499.606,"body":"task and then they put it, usually"},{"startTime":2496.698,"endTime":2499.606,"body":"they put it against their name."},{"startTime":2499.606,"endTime":2501.931,"body":"The why this team did that"},{"startTime":2499.606,"endTime":2501.931,"body":"is pretty interesting."},{"startTime":2502.006,"endTime":2506.281,"body":"So every day the tech lead would be"},{"startTime":2502.006,"endTime":2506.281,"body":"the go to person by anybody who is"},{"startTime":2506.281,"endTime":2507.881,"body":"working on the tasks for that story."},{"startTime":2507.906,"endTime":2512.064,"body":"Yeah and where you have an active involved"},{"startTime":2507.906,"endTime":2512.064,"body":"tech lead, that works quite well it's not"},{"startTime":2512.064,"endTime":2515.314,"body":"that every story is gonna need their input"},{"startTime":2512.064,"endTime":2515.314,"body":"necessarily, or every task, let's say,"},{"startTime":2515.714,"endTime":2517.514,"body":"but when it, when it is, they're there."},{"startTime":2518.339,"endTime":2520.714,"body":"So I've seen that, but that is just one."},{"startTime":2520.714,"endTime":2525.352,"body":"So I'd be more okay with that if"},{"startTime":2520.714,"endTime":2525.352,"body":"you had some high level categories"},{"startTime":2525.352,"endTime":2528.218,"body":"that things broke down into"},{"startTime":2525.352,"endTime":2528.218,"body":"where people were accountable"},{"startTime":2528.793,"endTime":2529.743,"body":"to those high level categories."},{"startTime":2529.743,"endTime":2532.018,"body":"And I'll give you an example because"},{"startTime":2529.743,"endTime":2532.018,"body":"this is, I'm getting super meta now."},{"startTime":2532.218,"endTime":2538.073,"body":"So if I had a work item that was"},{"startTime":2532.218,"endTime":2538.073,"body":"a technical enabler type of work"},{"startTime":2538.073,"endTime":2541.673,"body":"item, so, hey, if you wanna go"},{"startTime":2538.073,"endTime":2541.673,"body":"implement this functionality, we're"},{"startTime":2541.673,"endTime":2546.148,"body":"gonna have to upgrade our version of"},{"startTime":2541.673,"endTime":2546.148,"body":"this system to nine x or whatever."},{"startTime":2546.498,"endTime":2550.131,"body":"Okay, well, the actual upgrade of the"},{"startTime":2546.498,"endTime":2550.131,"body":"system, that is a technical enabler."},{"startTime":2550.131,"endTime":2554.206,"body":"In order for us to do a functionality"},{"startTime":2550.131,"endTime":2554.206,"body":"later on down the road, that is my"},{"startTime":2554.21,"endTime":2556.031,"body":"tech lead is answerable to that item."},{"startTime":2556.031,"endTime":2558.156,"body":"So I know who to call when I"},{"startTime":2556.031,"endTime":2558.156,"body":"want to know about that item."},{"startTime":2558.156,"endTime":2560.556,"body":"I call my tech lead, assuming"},{"startTime":2558.156,"endTime":2560.556,"body":"I don't hand, assuming I"},{"startTime":2560.556,"endTime":2561.331,"body":"don't have product managers."},{"startTime":2561.381,"endTime":2563.298,"body":"Cause some, some, some businesses."},{"startTime":2564.631,"endTime":2567.106,"body":", they don't hand technical things"},{"startTime":2564.631,"endTime":2567.106,"body":"off to their product managers."},{"startTime":2567.106,"endTime":2569.081,"body":"They hand it off to"},{"startTime":2567.106,"endTime":2569.081,"body":"some engineering leader."},{"startTime":2569.081,"endTime":2569.131,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2569.131,"endTime":2573.081,"body":"And the engineering leader kind of subs"},{"startTime":2569.131,"endTime":2573.081,"body":"in and out as a product manager, but like"},{"startTime":2573.081,"endTime":2576.556,"body":"a technical version of a product manager,"},{"startTime":2573.081,"endTime":2576.556,"body":"but not the job title product manager."},{"startTime":2576.56,"endTime":2579.598,"body":"And, and I think of the same thing as like"},{"startTime":2576.56,"endTime":2579.598,"body":"a customer request that's been funneled"},{"startTime":2579.598,"endTime":2583.289,"body":"directly through a customer that says, oh,"},{"startTime":2579.598,"endTime":2583.289,"body":"well maybe like, I've been in companies"},{"startTime":2583.289,"endTime":2588.014,"body":"where like 50% or more of the company's"},{"startTime":2583.289,"endTime":2588.014,"body":"revenue comes from a single customer."},{"startTime":2588.014,"endTime":2589.839,"body":"So whenever the customer says,"},{"startTime":2588.014,"endTime":2589.839,"body":"Hey, you guys really need to"},{"startTime":2589.839,"endTime":2591.464,"body":"add a checkbox on this screen."},{"startTime":2591.506,"endTime":2594.256,"body":"Normally you do some discovery work and"},{"startTime":2591.506,"endTime":2594.256,"body":"figure out exactly what the customer"},{"startTime":2594.256,"endTime":2598.331,"body":"needs, but sometimes it's quicker to"},{"startTime":2594.256,"endTime":2598.331,"body":"just  implement exactly what they ask for."},{"startTime":2598.381,"endTime":2598.431,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2598.506,"endTime":2601.085,"body":"So sometimes you have customer"},{"startTime":2598.506,"endTime":2601.085,"body":"requests and then sometimes you're"},{"startTime":2601.089,"endTime":2603.377,"body":"like, leadership comes down and"},{"startTime":2601.089,"endTime":2603.377,"body":"decides like, oh, this is we want"},{"startTime":2603.377,"endTime":2604.527,"body":"to, we wanna break into this market."},{"startTime":2604.527,"endTime":2605.852,"body":"We wanna do this strategic thing."},{"startTime":2605.852,"endTime":2608.677,"body":"We wanna create this analytic"},{"startTime":2605.852,"endTime":2608.677,"body":"product, or these reports out of our"},{"startTime":2608.677,"endTime":2610.123,"body":"database or whatever stuff like that."},{"startTime":2610.164,"endTime":2612.389,"body":"That they think is gonna"},{"startTime":2610.164,"endTime":2612.389,"body":"strategically position the company."},{"startTime":2612.664,"endTime":2616.239,"body":"So there's some categories so the"},{"startTime":2612.664,"endTime":2616.239,"body":"strategic things I definitely think should"},{"startTime":2616.289,"endTime":2617.614,"body":"be handed down to product managers Yes."},{"startTime":2617.639,"endTime":2619.514,"body":"To run with for the next"},{"startTime":2617.639,"endTime":2619.514,"body":"level, the customer things."},{"startTime":2619.614,"endTime":2621.864,"body":"Maybe you have a subject matter expert,"},{"startTime":2619.614,"endTime":2621.864,"body":"maybe have somebody who works in"},{"startTime":2621.864,"endTime":2624.839,"body":"support, or maybe you have somebody"},{"startTime":2621.864,"endTime":2624.839,"body":"who's like a, a customer advocate type"},{"startTime":2624.843,"endTime":2627.814,"body":"of role who can stand in when questions"},{"startTime":2624.843,"endTime":2627.814,"body":"come up about that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2627.856,"endTime":2631.627,"body":"There are different people in the"},{"startTime":2627.856,"endTime":2631.627,"body":"organization that maybe yeah, but"},{"startTime":2631.902,"endTime":2634.852,"body":"obviously my first recommendation would"},{"startTime":2631.902,"endTime":2634.852,"body":"be like, just get your product manager."},{"startTime":2635.027,"endTime":2636.435,"body":"They, they're supposed to do it all right."},{"startTime":2636.439,"endTime":2639.123,"body":"But maybe if you're a bit more nuanced"},{"startTime":2636.439,"endTime":2639.123,"body":"than that, or maybe you don't have"},{"startTime":2639.123,"endTime":2641.948,"body":"enough product managers to go around"},{"startTime":2639.123,"endTime":2641.948,"body":"or whatever you mean, maybe there's a,"},{"startTime":2641.952,"endTime":2643.998,"body":"a, some other strategies you can use."},{"startTime":2644.027,"endTime":2646.777,"body":"I'm doing like the scrum trainer thing of"},{"startTime":2644.027,"endTime":2646.777,"body":"like, just use Scrum the way it's supposed"},{"startTime":2646.777,"endTime":2647.827,"body":"to be used and you'll have no problems."},{"startTime":2647.827,"endTime":2648.402,"body":"Like, okay."},{"startTime":2648.406,"endTime":2648.652,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2648.652,"endTime":2652.777,"body":"But like in the real world, like , other"},{"startTime":2648.652,"endTime":2652.777,"body":"strategies, other, other tactics."},{"startTime":2653.302,"endTime":2654.377,"body":"I look forward to your angry tweets."},{"startTime":2654.377,"endTime":2656.802,"body":"I, I was just gonna say, somebody's gonna"},{"startTime":2654.377,"endTime":2656.802,"body":"say something on LinkedIn or something."},{"startTime":2656.806,"endTime":2657.252,"body":"Oh, no."},{"startTime":2657.293,"endTime":2660.027,"body":"I hope it's no one who has a day"},{"startTime":2657.293,"endTime":2660.027,"body":"job, but that's what I hope right."},{"startTime":2660.277,"endTime":2663.148,"body":"But no like these are other"},{"startTime":2660.277,"endTime":2663.148,"body":"things that maybe you can do"},{"startTime":2663.148,"endTime":2664.473,"body":"and it doesn't cost you a lot."},{"startTime":2664.473,"endTime":2666.498,"body":"I mean, just put the person's"},{"startTime":2664.473,"endTime":2666.498,"body":"name in there that deals with"},{"startTime":2666.502,"endTime":2667.723,"body":"the certain category or whatever,"},{"startTime":2667.956,"endTime":2670.006,"body":"there was ways you could do this"},{"startTime":2667.956,"endTime":2670.006,"body":"to, to kind of help you along."},{"startTime":2670.156,"endTime":2672.256,"body":"I honestly, I forgot what, what we"},{"startTime":2670.156,"endTime":2672.256,"body":"even talking about, we were talking"},{"startTime":2672.256,"endTime":2673.531,"body":"about this whole assignment, concept."},{"startTime":2673.531,"endTime":2675.398,"body":"Assignment, yeah so the,"},{"startTime":2675.548,"endTime":2679.923,"body":"just because something is assigned to"},{"startTime":2675.548,"endTime":2679.923,"body":"someone doesn't mean as a team, you"},{"startTime":2679.923,"endTime":2682.098,"body":"simply just say it's on that person."},{"startTime":2682.173,"endTime":2682.448,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2682.873,"endTime":2684.623,"body":"It's them, it's not Right."},{"startTime":2684.823,"endTime":2688.073,"body":"That piece of work is still for"},{"startTime":2684.823,"endTime":2688.073,"body":"the team to deliver in the sprint."},{"startTime":2688.223,"endTime":2690.848,"body":"So the team, anybody on the"},{"startTime":2688.223,"endTime":2690.848,"body":"team owns it just as much as the"},{"startTime":2690.852,"endTime":2692.398,"body":"person whose name is on there."},{"startTime":2692.623,"endTime":2694.198,"body":"It's just that that person might be."},{"startTime":2694.548,"endTime":2697.073,"body":"The most suited person who knows the"},{"startTime":2694.548,"endTime":2697.073,"body":"most about it, perhaps cuz he is done"},{"startTime":2697.073,"endTime":2698.423,"body":"or she's done that kind of work before."},{"startTime":2698.598,"endTime":2702.198,"body":"Yeah so I think that attitude change takes"},{"startTime":2698.598,"endTime":2702.198,"body":"a little bit of time to get used to where"},{"startTime":2702.198,"endTime":2705.473,"body":"in the daily standup, for example, team"},{"startTime":2702.198,"endTime":2705.473,"body":"members aren't saying here's what I did"},{"startTime":2705.473,"endTime":2708.106,"body":"yesterday is what I'm doing today, kind"},{"startTime":2705.473,"endTime":2708.106,"body":"of thing, yesterday I stood a standup"},{"startTime":2708.106,"endTime":2710.081,"body":"and gave my status and, and sat down."},{"startTime":2710.081,"endTime":2710.931,"body":"I'm gonna do the same today."},{"startTime":2711.081,"endTime":2711.606,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2711.61,"endTime":2714.823,"body":"Right that's where a team member might"},{"startTime":2711.61,"endTime":2714.823,"body":"say, well, I'm working on this thing"},{"startTime":2714.823,"endTime":2716.473,"body":"and I, I kind have a question on this."},{"startTime":2716.773,"endTime":2719.514,"body":"And another team member immediately"},{"startTime":2716.773,"endTime":2719.514,"body":"could say, well how about we get together"},{"startTime":2719.514,"endTime":2723.139,"body":"right after we can swarm on this peer"},{"startTime":2719.514,"endTime":2723.139,"body":"program or take your mob program."},{"startTime":2723.143,"endTime":2728.131,"body":"That kind of approach is very"},{"startTime":2723.143,"endTime":2728.131,"body":"beneficial in my experience, but it's"},{"startTime":2728.131,"endTime":2732.568,"body":"also difficult to get a team to to"},{"startTime":2728.131,"endTime":2732.568,"body":"implement that especially if they're"},{"startTime":2733.193,"endTime":2736.214,"body":"a team that hasn't been around a long"},{"startTime":2733.193,"endTime":2736.214,"body":"time , they've had a lot of churn."},{"startTime":2736.214,"endTime":2737.664,"body":"You don't really know the other person."},{"startTime":2738.064,"endTime":2740.439,"body":"You know, you don't know if someone's"},{"startTime":2738.064,"endTime":2740.439,"body":"gonna challenge your expertise or"},{"startTime":2740.764,"endTime":2744.023,"body":"you're afraid of being made out to"},{"startTime":2740.764,"endTime":2744.023,"body":"be incompetent or whatever it is."},{"startTime":2744.023,"endTime":2745.973,"body":"Whatever the insecurities are,"},{"startTime":2744.023,"endTime":2745.973,"body":"they need to be put aside."},{"startTime":2746.381,"endTime":2747.081,"body":"Let's go down that road."},{"startTime":2747.085,"endTime":2749.681,"body":"Cuz I mean that's, I feel that's"},{"startTime":2747.085,"endTime":2749.681,"body":"the one thing that is probably most"},{"startTime":2749.681,"endTime":2752.648,"body":"beneficial that we haven't talked"},{"startTime":2749.681,"endTime":2752.648,"body":"about, on today's podcast like how,"},{"startTime":2752.823,"endTime":2756.673,"body":"what are some tactics to kind of"},{"startTime":2752.823,"endTime":2756.673,"body":"get your team or some ideas, I don't"},{"startTime":2756.673,"endTime":2758.598,"body":"wanna say tactics, like dirty tactics."},{"startTime":2758.706,"endTime":2761.356,"body":"What are some things that you"},{"startTime":2758.706,"endTime":2761.356,"body":"could do to prompt your team?"},{"startTime":2761.906,"endTime":2763.764,"body":"Toward working together,"},{"startTime":2761.906,"endTime":2763.764,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2764.364,"endTime":2765.439,"body":"Swarming on things, basically."},{"startTime":2765.464,"endTime":2766.214,"body":"That's what, that's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":2766.698,"endTime":2769.164,"body":"Swarming on things that's what I'm saying"},{"startTime":2766.698,"endTime":2769.164,"body":"because I'm trying not to use the word"},{"startTime":2769.514,"endTime":2773.023,"body":"collaborate, because I, I I feel the, the"},{"startTime":2769.514,"endTime":2773.023,"body":"title of this podcast is gonna be Col Col."},{"startTime":2773.339,"endTime":2775.439,"body":"Like, we Won't, we don't"},{"startTime":2773.339,"endTime":2775.439,"body":"use the word Collaborate."},{"startTime":2775.439,"endTime":2777.698,"body":"That's gonna be the title of this"},{"startTime":2775.439,"endTime":2777.698,"body":"podcast,  talking about collaboration"},{"startTime":2777.698,"endTime":2779.464,"body":"without using the word collaboration."},{"startTime":2779.464,"endTime":2780.689,"body":"That's gonna be the title of this podcast."},{"startTime":2780.689,"endTime":2783.464,"body":"It's gonna have collaboration"},{"startTime":2780.689,"endTime":2783.464,"body":"twice in the title . All right."},{"startTime":2783.464,"endTime":2785.823,"body":"So as far as tactics go short"},{"startTime":2783.464,"endTime":2785.823,"body":"of buying cattle pros and"},{"startTime":2785.823,"endTime":2786.623,"body":"heating them up That's right."},{"startTime":2786.623,"endTime":2787.148,"body":"And they grow red."},{"startTime":2787.152,"endTime":2787.548,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2787.873,"endTime":2788.498,"body":"They're too expensive."},{"startTime":2788.502,"endTime":2788.998,"body":"That's the only reason."},{"startTime":2788.998,"endTime":2789.048,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2789.052,"endTime":2789.798,"body":"Very expensive."},{"startTime":2789.798,"endTime":2791.189,"body":"And the team members tend to not like it."},{"startTime":2791.514,"endTime":2794.989,"body":"So one of the things you could do is"},{"startTime":2791.514,"endTime":2794.989,"body":"when you're standing up on your daily"},{"startTime":2794.989,"endTime":2798.889,"body":"standup, switch up the routine and say,"},{"startTime":2794.989,"endTime":2798.889,"body":"do you know what Mary's working on?"},{"startTime":2798.889,"endTime":2800.564,"body":"Mary, do you know what Fred's working on?"},{"startTime":2800.564,"endTime":2800.814,"body":"Fred?"},{"startTime":2800.814,"endTime":2800.989,"body":"Do you?"},{"startTime":2801.139,"endTime":2801.389,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2801.389,"endTime":2804.389,"body":"Can you talk about that topic that"},{"startTime":2801.389,"endTime":2804.389,"body":"this other person's working on?"},{"startTime":2804.439,"endTime":2804.589,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2804.593,"endTime":2807.081,"body":"And if they just have completely"},{"startTime":2804.593,"endTime":2807.081,"body":"no idea, it tells you you're not."},{"startTime":2807.902,"endTime":2809.377,"body":"working well together,"},{"startTime":2807.902,"endTime":2809.377,"body":"almost use the C word."},{"startTime":2809.377,"endTime":2811.802,"body":"Right so I, so that's"},{"startTime":2809.377,"endTime":2811.802,"body":"just a symptom, right?"},{"startTime":2812.002,"endTime":2813.152,"body":"How do you make that happen?"},{"startTime":2813.452,"endTime":2817.327,"body":"I think every time you point to a"},{"startTime":2813.452,"endTime":2817.327,"body":"task, you could ask the question"},{"startTime":2817.331,"endTime":2821.202,"body":"that I know it's got Fred's name on"},{"startTime":2817.331,"endTime":2821.202,"body":"it, but who can help Fred with this?"},{"startTime":2821.302,"endTime":2823.327,"body":"Yeah fred may say, well, I'm"},{"startTime":2821.302,"endTime":2823.327,"body":"gonna finish you in the next hour."},{"startTime":2823.327,"endTime":2823.852,"body":"I don't need help."},{"startTime":2823.852,"endTime":2824.452,"body":"Yeah, that's fine."},{"startTime":2824.777,"endTime":2828.152,"body":"But otherwise somebody"},{"startTime":2824.777,"endTime":2828.152,"body":"needs to say something."},{"startTime":2828.277,"endTime":2828.402,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2828.427,"endTime":2831.402,"body":"So you could ask that question, who has"},{"startTime":2828.427,"endTime":2831.402,"body":"these skill sets who can help this person?"},{"startTime":2831.427,"endTime":2831.552,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2831.577,"endTime":2834.752,"body":"And, and when that task is wrapped"},{"startTime":2831.577,"endTime":2834.752,"body":"up, he in term can help somebody else."},{"startTime":2835.052,"endTime":2835.327,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2835.327,"endTime":2837.527,"body":"And try and instill that"},{"startTime":2835.327,"endTime":2837.527,"body":"culture of swarming it."},{"startTime":2837.527,"endTime":2840.418,"body":"It isn't easy especially if the team"},{"startTime":2837.527,"endTime":2840.418,"body":"members don't trust one another."},{"startTime":2840.418,"endTime":2842.493,"body":"I think that's the, that's"},{"startTime":2840.418,"endTime":2842.493,"body":"at the center of all this."},{"startTime":2842.493,"endTime":2842.618,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2842.643,"endTime":2842.977,"body":"Yeah yeah."},{"startTime":2843.227,"endTime":2846.835,"body":"Like we were saying earlier, before the"},{"startTime":2843.227,"endTime":2846.835,"body":"podcast showing your code to someone else."},{"startTime":2846.885,"endTime":2847.41,"body":"Oh man."},{"startTime":2847.61,"endTime":2848.535,"body":"That, that's gotta be tough."},{"startTime":2848.56,"endTime":2849.135,"body":"Terrifying, right?"},{"startTime":2849.139,"endTime":2849.735,"body":"Yeah, terrifying."},{"startTime":2849.735,"endTime":2852.735,"body":"So you gotta get that fear out of"},{"startTime":2849.735,"endTime":2852.735,"body":"them and say, it's not your code."},{"startTime":2853.11,"endTime":2853.76,"body":"This is our code."},{"startTime":2854.023,"endTime":2856.198,"body":"This girl is gonna speak for"},{"startTime":2854.023,"endTime":2856.198,"body":"all of us when it's out there."},{"startTime":2856.298,"endTime":2859.098,"body":"Yeah so can we all look at this"},{"startTime":2856.298,"endTime":2859.098,"body":"with the aim to not necessarily"},{"startTime":2859.098,"endTime":2860.548,"body":"say, oh, you're terrible at coding."},{"startTime":2860.698,"endTime":2864.173,"body":"The aim is, how can we get this"},{"startTime":2860.698,"endTime":2864.173,"body":"done the right way, obviously Yeah."},{"startTime":2864.177,"endTime":2865.973,"body":"But get it done right collectively."},{"startTime":2866.073,"endTime":2866.273,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2866.323,"endTime":2869.373,"body":"That, that mentality, that kind of"},{"startTime":2866.323,"endTime":2869.373,"body":"an approach, I think will foster"},{"startTime":2869.398,"endTime":2870.681,"body":"this behavior of swarming together."},{"startTime":2870.803,"endTime":2873.628,"body":"I'm already compiling my agenda for"},{"startTime":2870.803,"endTime":2873.628,"body":"round two of this podcast because"},{"startTime":2873.632,"endTime":2878.511,"body":"we didn't even talk about like"},{"startTime":2873.632,"endTime":2878.511,"body":"sitting testers with your developers."},{"startTime":2878.536,"endTime":2878.686,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":2878.711,"endTime":2882.861,"body":"When, when they start writing line"},{"startTime":2878.711,"endTime":2882.861,"body":"one of code sitting, sitting down"},{"startTime":2882.861,"endTime":2885.27,"body":"and saying like, Hey, hey like"},{"startTime":2882.861,"endTime":2885.27,"body":"the first thing, what is this?"},{"startTime":2885.27,"endTime":2887.095,"body":"What is this function supposed to do?"},{"startTime":2887.099,"endTime":2888.62,"body":"What, what is this piece of the code?"},{"startTime":2888.62,"endTime":2890.295,"body":"What is this new module"},{"startTime":2888.62,"endTime":2890.295,"body":"we're writing supposed to do?"},{"startTime":2890.295,"endTime":2892.486,"body":"Oh,  it's supposed to"},{"startTime":2890.295,"endTime":2892.486,"body":"display a webpage for login."},{"startTime":2892.511,"endTime":2892.761,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2892.761,"endTime":2895.786,"body":"Well let's make sure that"},{"startTime":2892.761,"endTime":2895.786,"body":"you're not logged in first."},{"startTime":2896.111,"endTime":2896.461,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":2896.836,"endTime":2896.936,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":2896.936,"endTime":2898.703,"body":"I guess that should be"},{"startTime":2896.936,"endTime":2898.703,"body":"the wrapper of my right."},{"startTime":2898.753,"endTime":2901.228,"body":"You know, if, if, as long as you're"},{"startTime":2898.753,"endTime":2901.228,"body":"not logged in, let me check that"},{"startTime":2901.232,"endTime":2904.436,"body":"first and then now let me check now,"},{"startTime":2901.232,"endTime":2904.436,"body":"now let me prompt the login page."},{"startTime":2904.586,"endTime":2907.795,"body":"Yeah cuz if you're logged in,"},{"startTime":2904.586,"endTime":2907.795,"body":"like you don't need a login page."},{"startTime":2908.029,"endTime":2912.021,"body":"If your first story is create a login"},{"startTime":2908.029,"endTime":2912.021,"body":"page, that's not going to be the first"},{"startTime":2912.021,"endTime":2914.246,"body":"thing that I would think to code."},{"startTime":2914.471,"endTime":2918.604,"body":"If my first story is create a login"},{"startTime":2914.471,"endTime":2918.604,"body":"page and my test is behind me, you don't"},{"startTime":2918.608,"endTime":2919.779,"body":"need this page if you're logged in."},{"startTime":2919.804,"endTime":2920.229,"body":"When you."},{"startTime":2920.592,"endTime":2924.392,"body":"Working together, you're going"},{"startTime":2920.592,"endTime":2924.392,"body":"to identify things that maybe"},{"startTime":2924.392,"endTime":2925.717,"body":"you won't think of on your own."},{"startTime":2926.267,"endTime":2928.442,"body":"Absolutely because testers think"},{"startTime":2926.267,"endTime":2928.442,"body":"slightly differently, right?"},{"startTime":2928.442,"endTime":2928.642,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2928.925,"endTime":2929.35,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2929.433,"endTime":2932.325,"body":"I, I think if you, if you had a magic"},{"startTime":2929.433,"endTime":2932.325,"body":"wand, you could put your testers with"},{"startTime":2932.325,"endTime":2937.4,"body":"your developers day one, like first hour"},{"startTime":2932.325,"endTime":2937.4,"body":"of the sprint and work out some tests"},{"startTime":2937.4,"endTime":2939.375,"body":"that can be written first and small ones."},{"startTime":2939.425,"endTime":2941.925,"body":"Yeah and then just write enough, go"},{"startTime":2939.425,"endTime":2941.925,"body":"to fail the test and then move on."},{"startTime":2942.0,"endTime":2942.6,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2942.6,"endTime":2945.35,"body":"If you do that, if you do"},{"startTime":2942.6,"endTime":2945.35,"body":"that well, when that story is."},{"startTime":2946.125,"endTime":2949.525,"body":"And the tester does their they do their"},{"startTime":2946.125,"endTime":2949.525,"body":"automation or whatever they, whether"},{"startTime":2949.525,"endTime":2952.925,"body":"they do a manual quick check, whatever"},{"startTime":2949.525,"endTime":2952.925,"body":"it is, that's gonna go super fast."},{"startTime":2952.925,"endTime":2955.425,"body":"Because by definition you've"},{"startTime":2952.925,"endTime":2955.425,"body":"gone through all, all of that."},{"startTime":2955.45,"endTime":2958.833,"body":"Yeah but to get to that point"},{"startTime":2955.45,"endTime":2958.833,"body":"requires a mindset change, right."},{"startTime":2958.883,"endTime":2962.208,"body":"Because nine times out of 10, if"},{"startTime":2958.883,"endTime":2962.208,"body":"not 10 times out of 10, testers"},{"startTime":2962.208,"endTime":2963.233,"body":"aren't sitting with developers."},{"startTime":2963.233,"endTime":2965.533,"body":"Day one, they're just simply saying,"},{"startTime":2963.233,"endTime":2965.533,"body":"when can I get something to test?"},{"startTime":2965.533,"endTime":2965.883,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2965.933,"endTime":2966.158,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2966.158,"endTime":2967.258,"body":"And we've gotta get away from that."},{"startTime":2967.4,"endTime":2967.667,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2967.992,"endTime":2972.783,"body":"and that is kind of why we titled"},{"startTime":2967.992,"endTime":2972.783,"body":"this podcast as a leadership problems,"},{"startTime":2972.783,"endTime":2976.083,"body":"because I feel there are, there are"},{"startTime":2972.783,"endTime":2976.083,"body":"organizations where you will never"},{"startTime":2976.083,"endTime":2978.783,"body":"even get to having that conversation"},{"startTime":2976.083,"endTime":2978.783,"body":"because they'll, they'll, they will say"},{"startTime":2978.783,"endTime":2983.783,"body":"like, why would I pay a tester to sit"},{"startTime":2978.783,"endTime":2983.783,"body":"with a developer and not do anything?"},{"startTime":2984.433,"endTime":2985.083,"body":"Air quotes?"},{"startTime":2985.108,"endTime":2985.283,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2985.333,"endTime":2990.458,"body":"Not, I mean, I know, I know it sounds"},{"startTime":2985.333,"endTime":2990.458,"body":"ridiculous, but not do anything while"},{"startTime":2990.458,"endTime":2992.733,"body":"my like theoretically if you have no."},{"startTime":2993.058,"endTime":2995.908,"body":"Automation testing at all, and"},{"startTime":2993.058,"endTime":2995.908,"body":"you're only a manual test shop."},{"startTime":2996.258,"endTime":2998.658,"body":"Your developer, your developer"},{"startTime":2996.258,"endTime":2998.658,"body":"and your testers still are sitting"},{"startTime":2998.658,"endTime":3000.058,"body":"together while the codes being written."},{"startTime":3000.533,"endTime":3004.158,"body":"And theoretically your tester is still"},{"startTime":3000.533,"endTime":3004.158,"body":"testing it at, at the end of the line,"},{"startTime":3004.683,"endTime":3008.283,"body":"inspecting for quality that everything"},{"startTime":3004.683,"endTime":3008.283,"body":"we, everything demoing said not to"},{"startTime":3008.283,"endTime":3009.658,"body":"do, assuming you're still doing that."},{"startTime":3009.658,"endTime":3013.283,"body":"But the point is now they"},{"startTime":3009.658,"endTime":3013.283,"body":"see how the code is written."},{"startTime":3013.287,"endTime":3013.675,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3013.746,"endTime":3015.508,"body":"and they were involved"},{"startTime":3013.746,"endTime":3015.508,"body":"though during the whole time."},{"startTime":3015.508,"endTime":3020.233,"body":"So they're still doing the test at the end"},{"startTime":3015.508,"endTime":3020.233,"body":"but the point is now they can be assured"},{"startTime":3020.233,"endTime":3023.4,"body":"that things have been thought of at the"},{"startTime":3020.233,"endTime":3023.4,"body":"very, very beginning of the production."},{"startTime":3023.75,"endTime":3023.95,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3023.95,"endTime":3026.375,"body":"So in that scenario, in that model,"},{"startTime":3023.95,"endTime":3026.375,"body":"right, the tests that they're doing"},{"startTime":3026.375,"endTime":3029.55,"body":"at the end are more likely the pre"},{"startTime":3026.375,"endTime":3029.55,"body":"inspection when you pick up a vehicle."},{"startTime":3029.675,"endTime":3031.15,"body":"Yeah you wouldn't want"},{"startTime":3029.675,"endTime":3031.15,"body":"to pick one up without."},{"startTime":3032.387,"endTime":3035.987,"body":"Things happen, things get missed"},{"startTime":3032.387,"endTime":3035.987,"body":"out, but that's a minimal thing"},{"startTime":3036.037,"endTime":3038.637,"body":"at the end because they were there"},{"startTime":3036.037,"endTime":3038.637,"body":"involved from the beginning right."},{"startTime":3038.637,"endTime":3041.308,"body":"Any pivots that needed to happen,"},{"startTime":3038.637,"endTime":3041.308,"body":"et cetera already happened."},{"startTime":3041.358,"endTime":3044.833,"body":"Yeah so just we know we know what to do."},{"startTime":3044.837,"endTime":3045.217,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3045.358,"endTime":3046.458,"body":"Then why isn't it being done?"},{"startTime":3046.458,"endTime":3046.558,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3046.758,"endTime":3049.692,"body":", it, it's, it all comes down to the"},{"startTime":3046.758,"endTime":3049.692,"body":"mindset, we need to break this, this"},{"startTime":3049.692,"endTime":3052.567,"body":"paradigm that people have in their"},{"startTime":3049.692,"endTime":3052.567,"body":"heads about testers testing things"},{"startTime":3052.571,"endTime":3055.692,"body":"once things have been chucked over the"},{"startTime":3052.571,"endTime":3055.692,"body":"wall from developers that has to go."},{"startTime":3055.992,"endTime":3059.492,"body":"And some of the ways you can do that"},{"startTime":3055.992,"endTime":3059.492,"body":"you've just touched on one, right?"},{"startTime":3059.592,"endTime":3063.042,"body":"Get together with the developer day one,"},{"startTime":3059.592,"endTime":3063.042,"body":"but you don't have enough testers to do"},{"startTime":3063.042,"endTime":3066.342,"body":"that for every developer necessarily say"},{"startTime":3063.042,"endTime":3066.342,"body":"you have five developers, you don't have"},{"startTime":3066.346,"endTime":3067.767,"body":"five testers who can do all of that."},{"startTime":3068.267,"endTime":3069.267,"body":"So there is that mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3069.471,"endTime":3072.967,"body":"."},{"startTime":3069.471,"endTime":3072.967,"body":"Now, as far as changing the attitudes and"},{"startTime":3072.967,"endTime":3075.725,"body":"can do is have your tester do things like."},{"startTime":3076.337,"endTime":3077.712,"body":"run your product demo."},{"startTime":3077.962,"endTime":3079.662,"body":"They, they're actually"},{"startTime":3077.962,"endTime":3079.662,"body":"doing the demonstration."},{"startTime":3079.687,"endTime":3083.662,"body":"Yeah and then when they get feedback,"},{"startTime":3079.687,"endTime":3083.662,"body":"that feedback is translated not by a BA."},{"startTime":3083.804,"endTime":3085.529,"body":"So change up the roles is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":3085.729,"endTime":3085.854,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3085.879,"endTime":3086.979,"body":"Right 10 rules."},{"startTime":3086.979,"endTime":3090.879,"body":"So the 10 rules to me is when somebody"},{"startTime":3086.979,"endTime":3090.879,"body":"writes 10 lines of code, the tester"},{"startTime":3090.904,"endTime":3092.104,"body":"needs to be there to look at that."},{"startTime":3092.229,"endTime":3092.529,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3092.6,"endTime":3092.804,"body":", right?"},{"startTime":3093.129,"endTime":3095.104,"body":"This is different from TDD."},{"startTime":3095.179,"endTime":3097.654,"body":"This is writing the code first,"},{"startTime":3095.179,"endTime":3097.654,"body":"but still the tester there."},{"startTime":3097.654,"endTime":3099.004,"body":"And they could say, what about this?"},{"startTime":3099.004,"endTime":3099.454,"body":"What about that?"},{"startTime":3099.454,"endTime":3099.704,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3099.708,"endTime":3099.862,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3099.867,"endTime":3101.067,"body":"It's not as good as tdd."},{"startTime":3101.217,"endTime":3101.317,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3101.567,"endTime":3105.296,"body":"But it is a step toward it these"},{"startTime":3101.567,"endTime":3105.296,"body":"are little things you can do to get"},{"startTime":3105.296,"endTime":3106.716,"body":"there in the not too distant future."},{"startTime":3107.666,"endTime":3109.116,"body":"I wanna keep going cuz"},{"startTime":3107.666,"endTime":3109.116,"body":"we're talking about testing."},{"startTime":3109.12,"endTime":3109.666,"body":"So I'm excited."},{"startTime":3109.666,"endTime":3112.891,"body":"But to cap this off the streams a work"},{"startTime":3109.666,"endTime":3112.891,"body":"thing is always weird for me cuz I'm"},{"startTime":3112.891,"endTime":3116.841,"body":"like, why, why do you care about everyone"},{"startTime":3112.891,"endTime":3116.841,"body":"going off and working on individual things"},{"startTime":3117.116,"endTime":3118.666,"body":"that may or may not be the priority?"},{"startTime":3118.666,"endTime":3119.791,"body":"Just, just to keep everyone busy."},{"startTime":3119.791,"endTime":3120.824,"body":"Like, I I Oh yeah."},{"startTime":3120.828,"endTime":3123.42,"body":"I mean,  I get that"},{"startTime":3120.828,"endTime":3123.42,"body":"project management mindset."},{"startTime":3123.42,"endTime":3127.487,"body":"I, I understand it's, it's, it's"},{"startTime":3123.42,"endTime":3127.487,"body":"pretty natural for people depending"},{"startTime":3127.487,"endTime":3129.937,"body":"on their background to fall into"},{"startTime":3127.487,"endTime":3129.937,"body":"that control type of mindset."},{"startTime":3129.937,"endTime":3130.762,"body":"And I, so I understand."},{"startTime":3130.762,"endTime":3133.762,"body":"Like, I don't, I don't get too upset"},{"startTime":3130.762,"endTime":3133.762,"body":"about it being that prevalent out"},{"startTime":3133.762,"endTime":3137.012,"body":"there, but also you gotta know at some"},{"startTime":3133.762,"endTime":3137.012,"body":"point this doesn't really do anything."},{"startTime":3137.387,"endTime":3137.587,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3137.587,"endTime":3140.387,"body":"You know, it's hard to divorce yourself"},{"startTime":3137.587,"endTime":3140.387,"body":"from that mindset if you come from that."},{"startTime":3140.612,"endTime":3144.495,"body":"That that domain, that background"},{"startTime":3140.612,"endTime":3144.495,"body":"as one who was living in those, in"},{"startTime":3144.495,"endTime":3148.195,"body":"those spheres, I can say that, but"},{"startTime":3144.495,"endTime":3148.195,"body":"cuz the focus was on utilization."},{"startTime":3148.32,"endTime":3149.516,"body":"Keep people busy utilization right."},{"startTime":3149.516,"endTime":3152.491,"body":"And yeah, they could just write please"},{"startTime":3149.516,"endTime":3152.491,"body":"turn over on a piece of paper on both"},{"startTime":3152.495,"endTime":3153.791,"body":"sides and keep doing that every day."},{"startTime":3153.941,"endTime":3154.116,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3154.116,"endTime":3156.541,"body":"That doesn't really get you"},{"startTime":3154.116,"endTime":3156.541,"body":"the value you looking for."},{"startTime":3156.616,"endTime":3159.507,"body":"Yeah but again, if one's come from"},{"startTime":3156.616,"endTime":3159.507,"body":"that environment, that's all you know."},{"startTime":3159.507,"endTime":3159.832,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3159.991,"endTime":3160.191,"body":", right."},{"startTime":3160.207,"endTime":3163.145,"body":"And yeah, and, and like, just to, just"},{"startTime":3160.207,"endTime":3163.145,"body":"to cap this podcast off like that,"},{"startTime":3163.307,"endTime":3165.607,"body":"there was a, there was a discussion"},{"startTime":3163.307,"endTime":3165.607,"body":"we had before the podcast that I"},{"startTime":3165.607,"endTime":3167.477,"body":"think encapsulates CIS really well."},{"startTime":3167.481,"endTime":3171.31,"body":"Is, is there's, there's two management"},{"startTime":3167.481,"endTime":3171.31,"body":"teams in two different organizations."},{"startTime":3171.552,"endTime":3174.819,"body":"And one management team says, oh, you"},{"startTime":3171.552,"endTime":3174.819,"body":"need to show us a, a, a work breakdown"},{"startTime":3174.819,"endTime":3178.527,"body":"that proves that over the duration of"},{"startTime":3174.819,"endTime":3178.527,"body":"the project everyone is utilized to X"},{"startTime":3178.531,"endTime":3180.96,"body":"percentage of their eight hours per day."},{"startTime":3180.964,"endTime":3184.985,"body":"And I mean, show me that everyone's"},{"startTime":3180.964,"endTime":3184.985,"body":"working 7.25 hours per day or whatever,"},{"startTime":3184.985,"endTime":3187.135,"body":"and show me what, what activities are"},{"startTime":3184.985,"endTime":3187.135,"body":"gonna be involved in along the way."},{"startTime":3187.16,"endTime":3192.119,"body":"And then the other management team"},{"startTime":3187.16,"endTime":3192.119,"body":"says show me that everyone is working"},{"startTime":3192.119,"endTime":3195.573,"body":"on what I declare as the top priority"},{"startTime":3192.119,"endTime":3195.573,"body":"until the top priority is done."},{"startTime":3196.023,"endTime":3197.548,"body":"And then moving on to"},{"startTime":3196.023,"endTime":3197.548,"body":"the next priority show."},{"startTime":3197.548,"endTime":3201.389,"body":"Show me that people are working"},{"startTime":3197.548,"endTime":3201.389,"body":"together to make sure that the business'"},{"startTime":3201.464,"endTime":3204.464,"body":"top priorities are knocked out in"},{"startTime":3201.464,"endTime":3204.464,"body":"the order in which the business."},{"startTime":3205.252,"endTime":3206.402,"body":"sets of priorities, right?"},{"startTime":3206.627,"endTime":3209.244,"body":"Until we are done, done"},{"startTime":3206.627,"endTime":3209.244,"body":"with the list, basically."},{"startTime":3209.244,"endTime":3211.769,"body":"Which, I mean, you're never, you're"},{"startTime":3209.244,"endTime":3211.769,"body":"never done with the list obviously in"},{"startTime":3211.769,"endTime":3213.369,"body":"either, either in either methodology."},{"startTime":3213.369,"endTime":3214.544,"body":"You're never done with the list of work."},{"startTime":3214.669,"endTime":3217.427,"body":"No but the point is in the second"},{"startTime":3214.669,"endTime":3217.427,"body":"example that I, that I used, not,"},{"startTime":3217.485,"endTime":3221.86,"body":"not the one that is concerned with"},{"startTime":3217.485,"endTime":3221.86,"body":"utilization it, it's so much more"},{"startTime":3221.91,"endTime":3227.227,"body":"mature of a way to run a business to"},{"startTime":3221.91,"endTime":3227.227,"body":"say, I'm gonna give you the employees"},{"startTime":3227.227,"endTime":3229.619,"body":"in my business, my number one goal."},{"startTime":3229.819,"endTime":3232.394,"body":"And I want you all to put your"},{"startTime":3229.819,"endTime":3232.394,"body":"heads together to figure out how"},{"startTime":3232.394,"endTime":3233.669,"body":"to accomplish my number one goal."},{"startTime":3233.669,"endTime":3237.227,"body":"And when my number one goal is"},{"startTime":3233.669,"endTime":3237.227,"body":"accomplished, and I feel this is the"},{"startTime":3237.231,"endTime":3241.344,"body":"star next to this, when my number"},{"startTime":3237.231,"endTime":3241.344,"body":"one goal is accomplished, star, or"},{"startTime":3241.819,"endTime":3246.169,"body":"accomplished enough where I decide, I"},{"startTime":3241.819,"endTime":3246.169,"body":"leadership decide I will accept this."},{"startTime":3246.269,"endTime":3246.994,"body":"This is enough."},{"startTime":3247.869,"endTime":3251.477,"body":"Move on to number two okay,"},{"startTime":3247.869,"endTime":3251.477,"body":"so, so you finish your work."},{"startTime":3251.527,"endTime":3253.577,"body":"You keep showing me the work"},{"startTime":3251.527,"endTime":3253.577,"body":"until I say, okay, enough."},{"startTime":3253.602,"endTime":3253.977,"body":"Enough."},{"startTime":3254.102,"endTime":3255.377,"body":"I know there's other things we can do."},{"startTime":3255.827,"endTime":3258.452,"body":"Yes, the product would be better"},{"startTime":3255.827,"endTime":3258.452,"body":"with more things, but this is enough."},{"startTime":3259.077,"endTime":3260.252,"body":"Goal number two is creeping up."},{"startTime":3260.252,"endTime":3260.977,"body":"We gotta get to it."},{"startTime":3261.052,"endTime":3261.777,"body":"Let's pivot."},{"startTime":3262.027,"endTime":3262.852,"body":"Cut off goal number one."},{"startTime":3263.977,"endTime":3267.477,"body":"That is a lot different than just"},{"startTime":3263.977,"endTime":3267.477,"body":"saying, oh, what are you doing to"},{"startTime":3267.477,"endTime":3272.502,"body":"make sure that everyone has their"},{"startTime":3267.477,"endTime":3272.502,"body":"butts and seats for 7.5 hours per day?"},{"startTime":3272.502,"endTime":3273.252,"body":"hands on keyboard."},{"startTime":3273.256,"endTime":3273.577,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3274.152,"endTime":3274.977,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":3275.377,"endTime":3277.002,"body":"It's a completely"},{"startTime":3275.377,"endTime":3277.002,"body":"different mentality, right?"},{"startTime":3277.027,"endTime":3280.377,"body":"Even one's gonna get you the actual"},{"startTime":3277.027,"endTime":3280.377,"body":"value, the result that you want."},{"startTime":3280.377,"endTime":3282.502,"body":"The other one's going"},{"startTime":3280.377,"endTime":3282.502,"body":"to get you good numbers."},{"startTime":3282.802,"endTime":3283.152,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":3283.527,"endTime":3283.777,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3283.852,"endTime":3285.327,"body":"Eventually, good numbers"},{"startTime":3283.852,"endTime":3285.327,"body":"that are meaningless."},{"startTime":3285.427,"endTime":3286.027,"body":"Meaningless, right?"},{"startTime":3286.027,"endTime":3286.427,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":3286.427,"endTime":3286.977,"body":"So it."},{"startTime":3287.464,"endTime":3288.739,"body":"Yeah, everybody's working great."},{"startTime":3288.739,"endTime":3289.964,"body":"Everybody's working, right?"},{"startTime":3289.989,"endTime":3290.164,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3290.214,"endTime":3291.314,"body":"But what are they producing?"},{"startTime":3291.314,"endTime":3291.798,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3292.039,"endTime":3292.239,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3292.239,"endTime":3296.806,"body":"So it's pretty clear to me that a lot of"},{"startTime":3292.239,"endTime":3296.806,"body":"organizations are still in that camp where"},{"startTime":3297.156,"endTime":3298.706,"body":"they're looking at keeping people busy."},{"startTime":3298.781,"endTime":3298.981,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3298.985,"endTime":3300.931,"body":"You know, we're paying them,"},{"startTime":3298.985,"endTime":3300.931,"body":"they gotta be busy, right."},{"startTime":3301.106,"endTime":3301.406,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":3301.406,"endTime":3302.998,"body":"Well that's is that a wrap?"},{"startTime":3302.998,"endTime":3303.373,"body":"That's a wrap."},{"startTime":3303.377,"endTime":3304.548,"body":"That's, that's this podcast"},{"startTime":3304.589,"endTime":3304.889,"body":"all right."},{"startTime":3304.889,"endTime":3307.814,"body":"Well make sure everybody you"},{"startTime":3304.889,"endTime":3307.814,"body":"sure you like our podcast."},{"startTime":3307.814,"endTime":3310.339,"body":"Give us your comments down below and let"},{"startTime":3307.814,"endTime":3310.339,"body":"us know what else you'd like to hear about"},{"startTime":3310.414,"endTime":3312.914,"body":"and let us know what shorts you wanna see."},{"startTime":3312.956,"endTime":3313.556,"body":"yes, that too"}]}