{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.253,"body":"If you do a podcast, especially,"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.253,"body":"the Agile podcast, aka."},{"startTime":3.598,"endTime":6.733,"body":"Arguing agile for so long, you end"},{"startTime":3.598,"endTime":6.733,"body":"up with a whole bunch of topics that"},{"startTime":6.733,"endTime":9.753,"body":"you cannot cover in a normal podcast."},{"startTime":10.003,"endTime":13.186,"body":"Cause they don't they don't really"},{"startTime":10.003,"endTime":13.186,"body":"lend themselves to discussion, a"},{"startTime":13.186,"endTime":17.016,"body":"long form discussion, but they're"},{"startTime":13.186,"endTime":17.016,"body":"still worthy of being discussed."},{"startTime":17.406,"endTime":18.696,"body":"So that's today."},{"startTime":18.706,"endTime":23.783,"body":"we had a, a topic come up recently"},{"startTime":18.706,"endTime":23.783,"body":"at a, networking event that we were"},{"startTime":23.788,"endTime":29.333,"body":"both at, and the topic was, and I"},{"startTime":23.788,"endTime":29.333,"body":"quote, Agileists never take account."},{"startTime":29.946,"endTime":31.116,"body":"What a statement to make."},{"startTime":31.116,"endTime":33.996,"body":"There's, there are a couple of"},{"startTime":31.116,"endTime":33.996,"body":"strong words in that statement."},{"startTime":33.996,"endTime":35.226,"body":"Never is one."},{"startTime":35.646,"endTime":37.886,"body":"And accountability"},{"startTime":35.646,"endTime":37.886,"body":"agileists never take 'em."},{"startTime":38.316,"endTime":38.946,"body":"Accountability."},{"startTime":39.006,"endTime":39.636,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":39.946,"endTime":44.056,"body":"I think the person who said that had"},{"startTime":39.946,"endTime":44.056,"body":"something else on their mind that they"},{"startTime":44.056,"endTime":48.215,"body":"weren't able to relay, I guess in the"},{"startTime":44.056,"endTime":48.215,"body":"time allowed at that, , social event."},{"startTime":48.295,"endTime":51.645,"body":"But fundamentally, if you look"},{"startTime":48.295,"endTime":51.645,"body":"at this at face value, agileists"},{"startTime":51.655,"endTime":52.975,"body":"never take accountability."},{"startTime":53.875,"endTime":57.165,"body":"I mean, if you're an"},{"startTime":53.875,"endTime":57.165,"body":"angelist, you know who we are."},{"startTime":57.165,"endTime":60.495,"body":"If you're an agile list, how"},{"startTime":57.165,"endTime":60.495,"body":"would you feel about this?"},{"startTime":60.585,"endTime":63.345,"body":"Uh, please, please let us know"},{"startTime":60.585,"endTime":63.345,"body":"in the comments down below."},{"startTime":63.345,"endTime":66.945,"body":"Personally, my, my own opinion on"},{"startTime":63.345,"endTime":66.945,"body":"this is it is a bunch of baloney."},{"startTime":67.122,"endTime":71.209,"body":"Because Agileists typically"},{"startTime":67.122,"endTime":71.209,"body":"work with teams and."},{"startTime":71.285,"endTime":74.885,"body":"Team members take accountability"},{"startTime":71.285,"endTime":74.885,"body":"for collectively the team's,"},{"startTime":74.985,"endTime":77.085,"body":"effectiveness and outcomes."},{"startTime":77.425,"endTime":79.675,"body":"Actually, I know exactly what"},{"startTime":77.425,"endTime":79.675,"body":"the counterpoint, like this"},{"startTime":79.675,"endTime":82.395,"body":"is what happens when you work"},{"startTime":79.675,"endTime":82.395,"body":"for psychopaths for too long."},{"startTime":82.875,"endTime":85.915,"body":"The counterpoint here is when,"},{"startTime":82.875,"endTime":85.915,"body":"when accountability is not one,"},{"startTime":85.915,"endTime":87.925,"body":"one individual, it's on nobody."},{"startTime":88.075,"endTime":92.515,"body":"That's the counterpoint that I hear"},{"startTime":88.075,"endTime":92.515,"body":"very clearly ringing in my head."},{"startTime":92.635,"endTime":92.725,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":93.055,"endTime":96.175,"body":"Usually coming from a psychopath,"},{"startTime":93.055,"endTime":96.175,"body":"trying to pin down or blame"},{"startTime":96.315,"endTime":97.035,"body":"absolutely."},{"startTime":97.035,"endTime":97.875,"body":"Couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":97.905,"endTime":99.645,"body":"Um, so yeah, I have seen that."},{"startTime":99.875,"endTime":102.87,"body":"I'm not supposed to agree,"},{"startTime":99.875,"endTime":102.87,"body":"but  but on this point, I,"},{"startTime":102.87,"endTime":104.61,"body":"I've seen this myself, right?"},{"startTime":105.03,"endTime":107.45,"body":"These psychopaths that,"},{"startTime":105.03,"endTime":107.45,"body":"that of which you speak."},{"startTime":107.455,"endTime":107.53,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":107.61,"endTime":108.65,"body":", I've seen them, they say, mm-hmm."},{"startTime":108.92,"endTime":110.13,"body":", well, where's that?"},{"startTime":111.18,"endTime":113.36,"body":"One neck to choke."},{"startTime":113.51,"endTime":114.92,"body":"What a horrible phrase."},{"startTime":114.925,"endTime":115.88,"body":"What a horrible phrase."},{"startTime":116.24,"endTime":121.52,"body":"so yes, people looking to pin the blame"},{"startTime":116.24,"endTime":121.52,"body":"on someone, they're very keen to make"},{"startTime":121.52,"endTime":125.87,"body":"sure they have a name on a spreadsheet"},{"startTime":121.52,"endTime":125.87,"body":"usually, and they're very keen and"},{"startTime":125.87,"endTime":128.24,"body":"intent on making it go from green to red."},{"startTime":128.67,"endTime":131.82,"body":"so these are the people that"},{"startTime":128.67,"endTime":131.82,"body":"say we need accountability."},{"startTime":131.82,"endTime":134.0,"body":"In other words, I need to"},{"startTime":131.82,"endTime":134.0,"body":"blame somebody That's right."},{"startTime":134.0,"endTime":134.44,"body":"A person."},{"startTime":134.44,"endTime":134.88,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":134.88,"endTime":135.68,"body":"Right, that's right."},{"startTime":135.685,"endTime":139.86,"body":"Um, and and they, they don't buy into"},{"startTime":135.685,"endTime":139.86,"body":"this concept of the team operating"},{"startTime":139.86,"endTime":142.96,"body":"as, a team of N number of individuals."},{"startTime":143.015,"endTime":147.155,"body":"So, the dictionary.com definition of"},{"startTime":143.015,"endTime":147.155,"body":"accountability is the state of being"},{"startTime":147.155,"endTime":149.975,"body":"accountable, liable, or answerable."},{"startTime":150.66,"endTime":150.96,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":150.96,"endTime":155.255,"body":"Accountable - subject to the obligation"},{"startTime":150.96,"endTime":155.255,"body":"to report, explain, or justify something."},{"startTime":155.675,"endTime":161.48,"body":"So, Responsible, answerable, capable of"},{"startTime":155.675,"endTime":161.48,"body":"being explained, explicable, explainable."},{"startTime":161.78,"endTime":166.375,"body":"Subject to the obligation to report,"},{"startTime":161.78,"endTime":166.375,"body":"explain, or justify something."},{"startTime":166.775,"endTime":169.07,"body":"Agilists never take accountability."},{"startTime":169.42,"endTime":173.12,"body":"Agilists never report, explain, or"},{"startTime":169.42,"endTime":173.12,"body":"justify what they're working on."},{"startTime":173.25,"endTime":175.455,"body":"When you read the definition"},{"startTime":173.25,"endTime":175.455,"body":"and then you go back."},{"startTime":175.605,"endTime":178.0,"body":"It kind of sounds ridiculous so I"},{"startTime":175.605,"endTime":178.0,"body":"wanted to read the definition to"},{"startTime":178.005,"endTime":180.61,"body":"know how better to dispute from the."},{"startTime":180.659,"endTime":183.149,"body":"Side to say Agileists"},{"startTime":180.659,"endTime":183.149,"body":"never take accountability."},{"startTime":183.449,"endTime":185.939,"body":"I'm assuming that when they say"},{"startTime":183.449,"endTime":185.939,"body":"Agileists, they're not talking"},{"startTime":185.939,"endTime":187.379,"body":"about developers and product owners."},{"startTime":188.279,"endTime":190.049,"body":"I assume they're talking"},{"startTime":188.279,"endTime":190.049,"body":"about Scrum Masters."},{"startTime":190.342,"endTime":192.052,"body":"Let's, let's, let's get"},{"startTime":190.342,"endTime":192.052,"body":"through the assumptions."},{"startTime":192.057,"endTime":194.002,"body":"Let's assume that, let's assume"},{"startTime":192.057,"endTime":194.002,"body":"that for a minute and go with it."},{"startTime":194.052,"endTime":194.492,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":194.812,"endTime":195.132,"body":". Okay."},{"startTime":195.562,"endTime":196.132,"body":"All right, good."},{"startTime":196.252,"endTime":198.322,"body":"Let's say we're talking"},{"startTime":196.252,"endTime":198.322,"body":"about agile coaches and we're"},{"startTime":198.322,"endTime":199.432,"body":"talking about Scrum masters."},{"startTime":199.462,"endTime":200.782,"body":"Never take accountability."},{"startTime":200.907,"endTime":205.377,"body":"The person exclaiming this statement,"},{"startTime":200.907,"endTime":205.377,"body":"Agilists, never take accountability"},{"startTime":205.517,"endTime":206.667,"body":"in this type of organization."},{"startTime":206.877,"endTime":212.466,"body":"Now, is this CTO, director of development,"},{"startTime":206.877,"endTime":212.466,"body":"somebody like that, who says, well, I"},{"startTime":212.466,"endTime":215.616,"body":"don't see a reason to hire scrum messages"},{"startTime":212.466,"endTime":215.616,"body":"cuz they, they never take accountability."},{"startTime":216.396,"endTime":223.226,"body":"Meaning they, they can't report,"},{"startTime":216.396,"endTime":223.226,"body":"explain, or justify when commitments"},{"startTime":223.226,"endTime":226.446,"body":"that I make on their behalf are missed."},{"startTime":227.016,"endTime":228.406,"body":"Yeah, I can see you."},{"startTime":229.201,"endTime":231.946,"body":"Charlie, the CTO's point"},{"startTime":229.201,"endTime":231.946,"body":"of view here, right?"},{"startTime":232.186,"endTime":235.456,"body":"Uh, if you are a scrum master"},{"startTime":232.186,"endTime":235.456,"body":"worth your salt, you're gonna say,"},{"startTime":235.636,"endTime":239.566,"body":"here's what's going on in, in all"},{"startTime":235.636,"endTime":239.566,"body":"honesty, in full transparency,"},{"startTime":239.566,"endTime":241.006,"body":"the good, the bad, and the ugly."},{"startTime":241.066,"endTime":241.386,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":241.466,"endTime":245.296,"body":", and that is not quite what he wants"},{"startTime":241.466,"endTime":245.296,"body":"to hear because he's gonna sanitize"},{"startTime":245.301,"endTime":249.166,"body":"your message anyway before it filters"},{"startTime":245.301,"endTime":249.166,"body":"upwards or, or laterally from him."},{"startTime":249.646,"endTime":253.306,"body":"He doesn't wanna show the team"},{"startTime":249.646,"endTime":253.306,"body":"quote unquote failed because failure"},{"startTime":253.306,"endTime":255.046,"body":"is quite honestly frowned upon."},{"startTime":255.066,"endTime":255.346,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":255.351,"endTime":255.376,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":255.466,"endTime":255.886,"body":"Yeah, right there."},{"startTime":256.306,"endTime":260.746,"body":"I can see the point of view of a person"},{"startTime":256.306,"endTime":260.746,"body":"like that saying, Agileists never take"},{"startTime":260.746,"endTime":265.276,"body":"accountability because I don't have one"},{"startTime":260.746,"endTime":265.276,"body":"person who I can say, Hey, you failed."},{"startTime":265.281,"endTime":265.756,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":265.756,"endTime":265.996,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":266.386,"endTime":269.176,"body":"Even if they don't report"},{"startTime":266.386,"endTime":269.176,"body":"that up the chain, right?"},{"startTime":269.176,"endTime":272.386,"body":"They want to be able to blame a"},{"startTime":269.176,"endTime":272.386,"body":"person, whereas here's the team"},{"startTime":272.386,"endTime":275.266,"body":"coming at them saying, the team"},{"startTime":272.386,"endTime":275.266,"body":"did this, the team did that."},{"startTime":275.346,"endTime":279.396,"body":"So I can see that, that perspective,"},{"startTime":275.346,"endTime":279.396,"body":"if you work for somebody like that,"},{"startTime":279.516,"endTime":281.336,"body":"I'd say keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":283.771,"endTime":287.255,"body":"The interesting part about accountability,"},{"startTime":283.771,"endTime":287.255,"body":"that little dance that I just did"},{"startTime":287.255,"endTime":288.995,"body":"doesn't really work on product that much."},{"startTime":289.585,"endTime":293.215,"body":"I mean, I guess it works, but it only"},{"startTime":289.585,"endTime":293.215,"body":"goes so far , especially if you're"},{"startTime":293.22,"endTime":296.995,"body":"responsible for the P\u0026L of the product,"},{"startTime":293.22,"endTime":296.995,"body":"if you have actual dollar figures tied"},{"startTime":296.995,"endTime":300.595,"body":"behind what you're doing you could"},{"startTime":296.995,"endTime":300.595,"body":"say like, Hey, we spent 20% of the"},{"startTime":300.595,"endTime":303.825,"body":"last two, three sprints on learning."},{"startTime":304.69,"endTime":306.31,"body":"you know, th these are"},{"startTime":304.69,"endTime":306.31,"body":"the things we learned."},{"startTime":306.46,"endTime":308.89,"body":"Oh, well you failed,"},{"startTime":306.46,"endTime":308.89,"body":"Brian, your team failed."},{"startTime":309.13,"endTime":309.67,"body":"Well, actually, yeah."},{"startTime":309.67,"endTime":313.54,"body":"I mean, yeah, we failed, but through"},{"startTime":309.67,"endTime":313.54,"body":"the things that we did not deliver"},{"startTime":313.57,"endTime":317.05,"body":"the, this is what we learned, we"},{"startTime":313.57,"endTime":317.05,"body":"tried to make this database change"},{"startTime":317.11,"endTime":318.43,"body":"because you wanted this feature."},{"startTime":318.64,"endTime":322.62,"body":"And we learned once we did it that"},{"startTime":318.64,"endTime":322.62,"body":"we blew up some other thing because"},{"startTime":322.62,"endTime":326.05,"body":"everyone that I have on my development"},{"startTime":322.62,"endTime":326.05,"body":"team were not the in individuals that"},{"startTime":326.1,"endTime":327.48,"body":"created the system in the first place."},{"startTime":328.14,"endTime":331.64,"body":"So we learned that something that only"},{"startTime":328.14,"endTime":331.64,"body":"the people who created the system in"},{"startTime":331.64,"endTime":335.26,"body":"the first place that have been gone"},{"startTime":331.64,"endTime":335.26,"body":"10 years or whatever, would've known."},{"startTime":335.99,"endTime":340.55,"body":"And now we understand that, that that"},{"startTime":335.99,"endTime":340.55,"body":"deep, deep part of the code, I, I think"},{"startTime":340.55,"endTime":345.83,"body":"when you have leadership that take that"},{"startTime":340.55,"endTime":345.83,"body":"position and say, but Brian, you failed."},{"startTime":345.88,"endTime":348.4,"body":"Even though you learned stuff"},{"startTime":345.88,"endTime":348.4,"body":"that was extremely valuable."},{"startTime":348.73,"endTime":352.33,"body":"I find it, I find it useful to"},{"startTime":348.73,"endTime":352.33,"body":"term that into terms that they"},{"startTime":352.33,"endTime":355.57,"body":"understand we didn't fail, we saved"},{"startTime":352.33,"endTime":355.57,"body":"this amount of money because had we"},{"startTime":355.57,"endTime":358.96,"body":"not learned this, we would've put"},{"startTime":355.57,"endTime":358.96,"body":"out bad code, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":358.96,"endTime":359.23,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":359.23,"endTime":362.56,"body":"So, un you know, then they can understand,"},{"startTime":359.23,"endTime":362.56,"body":"oh yeah, glad you didn't do that."},{"startTime":362.67,"endTime":366.18,"body":"so I think you need to kind of do"},{"startTime":362.67,"endTime":366.18,"body":"a reciprocal dance, if you will."},{"startTime":366.23,"endTime":371.0,"body":"I also since like since we did the"},{"startTime":366.23,"endTime":371.0,"body":"podcast on Carol Dweck's mindset"},{"startTime":371.05,"endTime":373.21,"body":"with Ed, shout, fantastic podcast."},{"startTime":373.21,"endTime":373.99,"body":"Shout out to Ed."},{"startTime":374.04,"endTime":377.1,"body":"It's like a quick, an hour"},{"startTime":374.04,"endTime":377.1,"body":"and 15 minute podcast here."},{"startTime":377.1,"endTime":377.82,"body":"Real quick,"},{"startTime":377.92,"endTime":379.39,"body":"so we did the podcast on mindset."},{"startTime":379.42,"endTime":380.47,"body":"This is, this is what I was talking about."},{"startTime":380.92,"endTime":382.3,"body":"And in the podcast on mindset."},{"startTime":383.17,"endTime":389.05,"body":"The book makes it a point to say , you"},{"startTime":383.17,"endTime":389.05,"body":"don't fail until you start blaming."},{"startTime":389.05,"endTime":391.24,"body":"That's a quote from, from"},{"startTime":389.05,"endTime":391.24,"body":"somebody in the book."},{"startTime":391.24,"endTime":392.11,"body":"I don't remember who it was."},{"startTime":392.56,"endTime":393.31,"body":"that's a great quote."},{"startTime":393.37,"endTime":395.855,"body":"Yeah, I'll remember it in the editing"},{"startTime":393.37,"endTime":395.855,"body":"and I'll throw, it'll try to throw"},{"startTime":395.855,"endTime":398.435,"body":"it on the screen unless I'm too lazy"},{"startTime":395.855,"endTime":398.435,"body":"and then I'll just cut this out."},{"startTime":398.795,"endTime":402.005,"body":"Cuz that's the idea here is like,"},{"startTime":398.795,"endTime":402.005,"body":"oh, agiles never take accountability."},{"startTime":402.155,"endTime":403.265,"body":"Well, well, what do you mean here?"},{"startTime":403.295,"endTime":406.745,"body":"Do you mean, do you mean"},{"startTime":403.295,"endTime":406.745,"body":"we we're not gonna blame."},{"startTime":407.255,"endTime":409.265,"body":"People, is that, is that what you mean?"},{"startTime":409.745,"endTime":411.705,"body":"Agile pushed back against"},{"startTime":409.745,"endTime":411.705,"body":"the blame culture."},{"startTime":411.705,"endTime":414.225,"body":"Because if so, I'll agree with that."},{"startTime":414.525,"endTime":418.355,"body":"And also like I'll immediately turn"},{"startTime":414.525,"endTime":418.355,"body":"that file around and be like, so what"},{"startTime":418.355,"endTime":419.865,"body":"do you actually do here  at Initech?"},{"startTime":419.885,"endTime":423.005,"body":"Like I'll, like the Bobs are in the"},{"startTime":419.885,"endTime":423.005,"body":"room and is like, oh, you're the one guy"},{"startTime":423.005,"endTime":424.735,"body":"blaming, let's do a little introspection."},{"startTime":424.735,"endTime":427.495,"body":"Look at what you do during the day."},{"startTime":427.5,"endTime":431.525,"body":"Other than blaming people, looks like"},{"startTime":427.5,"endTime":431.525,"body":"you basically professionally deflect"},{"startTime":431.975,"endTime":433.895,"body":"off to other people and blame people."},{"startTime":433.9,"endTime":435.995,"body":"And, you know, we've talked"},{"startTime":433.9,"endTime":435.995,"body":"a million times on podcasts."},{"startTime":435.995,"endTime":438.905,"body":"This is, this is not really a"},{"startTime":435.995,"endTime":438.905,"body":"reason to go super in depth here,"},{"startTime":438.91,"endTime":441.7,"body":"just get rid of that person and see"},{"startTime":438.91,"endTime":441.7,"body":"what happens in your organization."},{"startTime":442.15,"endTime":445.54,"body":"Yeah, it's like throwing out the bad"},{"startTime":442.15,"endTime":445.54,"body":"apple, you know, in a bushel of apples."},{"startTime":445.54,"endTime":445.87,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":445.87,"endTime":449.05,"body":"It, it can only get better cuz you're"},{"startTime":445.87,"endTime":449.05,"body":"getting rid of the rock basically."},{"startTime":449.25,"endTime":453.63,"body":". Uh, maybe some will say I'm big, a bit"},{"startTime":449.25,"endTime":453.63,"body":"extreme on this, but I don't think so."},{"startTime":453.78,"endTime":457.05,"body":"I mean, other people will say, look, you"},{"startTime":453.78,"endTime":457.05,"body":"know, Agilists never take accountability."},{"startTime":457.17,"endTime":459.87,"body":"I don't know what your developers"},{"startTime":457.17,"endTime":459.87,"body":"are doing all day, right?"},{"startTime":459.87,"endTime":460.38,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":460.41,"endTime":462.69,"body":"Well stop micromanaging them."},{"startTime":462.69,"endTime":462.99,"body":"Then."},{"startTime":463.35,"endTime":466.05,"body":"Of course, they're not gonna be"},{"startTime":463.35,"endTime":466.05,"body":"forthcoming with what they're"},{"startTime":466.05,"endTime":468.99,"body":"doing if they know that you're"},{"startTime":466.05,"endTime":468.99,"body":"gonna nitpick away at them."},{"startTime":469.47,"endTime":472.325,"body":"I just don't see a problem with going to"},{"startTime":469.47,"endTime":472.325,"body":"your team like if you're a leader in the"},{"startTime":472.325,"endTime":475.925,"body":"organization, going to your team show,"},{"startTime":472.325,"endTime":475.925,"body":"showing up at one of your team events,"},{"startTime":475.925,"endTime":479.675,"body":"let's say for example, and say, Hey, I,"},{"startTime":475.925,"endTime":479.675,"body":"I'm not seeing x, y, Z outta this team."},{"startTime":479.675,"endTime":480.695,"body":"I need more X."},{"startTime":480.965,"endTime":481.715,"body":"Oh, that, that is okay."},{"startTime":481.715,"endTime":483.905,"body":"That's within their ative"},{"startTime":481.715,"endTime":483.905,"body":"to, to do that, right?"},{"startTime":484.055,"endTime":486.125,"body":"But it's when they come in and say, you."},{"startTime":486.545,"endTime":487.775,"body":"Fred, you, Mary."},{"startTime":487.805,"endTime":488.165,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":488.375,"endTime":489.455,"body":"That is where I have an issue."},{"startTime":489.455,"endTime":489.575,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":489.575,"endTime":491.405,"body":"Because now you're putting"},{"startTime":489.575,"endTime":491.405,"body":"one person on the spot."},{"startTime":491.405,"endTime":491.675,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":491.735,"endTime":494.885,"body":"Then the team's trying to do"},{"startTime":491.735,"endTime":494.885,"body":"their best to deliver as a team."},{"startTime":494.945,"endTime":495.215,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":495.215,"endTime":498.335,"body":"But if, but like, just taking the,"},{"startTime":495.215,"endTime":498.335,"body":"trying to run with the spirit."},{"startTime":498.335,"endTime":499.205,"body":"I'm trying to defend this."},{"startTime":499.305,"endTime":499.545,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":499.625,"endTime":502.345,"body":", try trying to run with the"},{"startTime":499.625,"endTime":502.345,"body":"spirit of this bullet point."},{"startTime":503.125,"endTime":504.145,"body":"Never take accountability."},{"startTime":504.375,"endTime":507.885,"body":"if I'm a leader in the organization"},{"startTime":504.375,"endTime":507.885,"body":"and I constantly have a scrum master"},{"startTime":507.885,"endTime":510.645,"body":"from the team saying, well, you, you"},{"startTime":507.885,"endTime":510.645,"body":"know, you have to talk to the team."},{"startTime":511.125,"endTime":512.085,"body":"You have to talk to the team."},{"startTime":512.415,"endTime":515.805,"body":"Well, I, you know, maybe I, I know one"},{"startTime":512.415,"endTime":515.805,"body":"person on the team is not delivering"},{"startTime":515.81,"endTime":518.925,"body":"as fast as other people or people"},{"startTime":515.81,"endTime":518.925,"body":"in the organization are complaining"},{"startTime":518.925,"endTime":521.685,"body":"about one specific person on the team,"},{"startTime":518.925,"endTime":521.685,"body":"and the team is not dealing with it."},{"startTime":521.685,"endTime":523.725,"body":"Then I'll be like, well, you guys"},{"startTime":521.685,"endTime":523.725,"body":"are just not, you know, you're"},{"startTime":523.725,"endTime":525.975,"body":"not, you're not, you're not taking"},{"startTime":523.725,"endTime":525.975,"body":"accountability for, you know,"},{"startTime":525.975,"endTime":529.905,"body":"if you want to self-manage, you wanna"},{"startTime":525.975,"endTime":529.905,"body":"self-organized, self-manage, whatever"},{"startTime":529.905,"endTime":533.275,"body":"iteration of the scrum guide we're on"},{"startTime":529.905,"endTime":533.275,"body":"and you want to deal with that person"},{"startTime":533.275,"endTime":535.285,"body":"internally, like you have to do it."},{"startTime":536.185,"endTime":537.295,"body":"Like, don't, don't leave it."},{"startTime":537.355,"endTime":539.995,"body":"Uh, on my mana, my random"},{"startTime":537.355,"endTime":539.995,"body":"management plate of."},{"startTime":540.37,"endTime":542.14,"body":"Random things that I have to take care of."},{"startTime":542.32,"endTime":545.74,"body":"Cause I'm gonna delegate it to you, and"},{"startTime":542.32,"endTime":545.74,"body":"then I want to know that it's been done."},{"startTime":545.91,"endTime":549.45,"body":"I feel like if we're gonna go into that"},{"startTime":545.91,"endTime":549.45,"body":"category, like, hey, the team should be"},{"startTime":549.455,"endTime":555.355,"body":"identifying the people that are in need"},{"startTime":549.455,"endTime":555.355,"body":"of training, the people that are maybe"},{"startTime":555.355,"endTime":558.865,"body":"not working as, as, as fast as other"},{"startTime":555.355,"endTime":558.865,"body":"people or not catching on or whatever."},{"startTime":558.865,"endTime":562.315,"body":"And then get them up to speed if the"},{"startTime":558.865,"endTime":562.315,"body":"team would like that to be something"},{"startTime":562.555,"endTime":566.695,"body":"that is continued to be delegated to"},{"startTime":562.555,"endTime":566.695,"body":"the team rather than to some other"},{"startTime":566.695,"endTime":570.465,"body":"lead or to a manager or something"},{"startTime":566.695,"endTime":570.465,"body":"like that, the team needs to show that"},{"startTime":570.735,"endTime":572.565,"body":"they can deal with those situations."},{"startTime":572.775,"endTime":576.585,"body":"I don't know if like, the team proving"},{"startTime":572.775,"endTime":576.585,"body":"they can deal with those situations."},{"startTime":576.855,"endTime":578.235,"body":"I dunno if that's different"},{"startTime":576.855,"endTime":578.235,"body":"than accountability."},{"startTime":578.235,"endTime":580.275,"body":"I kind of see it as the"},{"startTime":578.235,"endTime":580.275,"body":"same as accountability."},{"startTime":580.275,"endTime":580.606,"body":"It is the same."},{"startTime":580.611,"endTime":580.975,"body":"It is the same."},{"startTime":580.975,"endTime":581.215,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":581.215,"endTime":582.255,"body":"I, I think some of these."},{"startTime":582.87,"endTime":586.62,"body":"Symptoms that you describe, you"},{"startTime":582.87,"endTime":586.62,"body":"know, somebody's not up to speed"},{"startTime":586.62,"endTime":587.73,"body":"with something or whatever."},{"startTime":587.94,"endTime":590.97,"body":"These are self-limiting if you're"},{"startTime":587.94,"endTime":590.97,"body":"truly acting as a team because you"},{"startTime":590.975,"endTime":594.45,"body":"talk about 'em as a team and then you"},{"startTime":590.975,"endTime":594.45,"body":"chart the course of action mm-hmm."},{"startTime":594.69,"endTime":595.98,"body":"to redress that deficiency."},{"startTime":596.4,"endTime":599.28,"body":"so I think those things, if you"},{"startTime":596.4,"endTime":599.28,"body":"trust the team and leave them"},{"startTime":599.285,"endTime":600.93,"body":"alone to figure these things out."},{"startTime":600.93,"endTime":601.11,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":601.42,"endTime":602.44,"body":"I think they're self-limiting."},{"startTime":602.703,"endTime":605.883,"body":"If management is hearing things in"},{"startTime":602.703,"endTime":605.883,"body":"the organization, or if management's"},{"startTime":605.888,"endTime":610.143,"body":"feeling things in the organization"},{"startTime":605.888,"endTime":610.143,"body":"or management just like susses things"},{"startTime":610.143,"endTime":611.933,"body":"out how would they communicate?"},{"startTime":611.933,"endTime":614.093,"body":"But would they go through the"},{"startTime":611.933,"endTime":614.093,"body":"scrum master, through a team, lead,"},{"startTime":614.093,"endTime":616.043,"body":"through a senior member of the team?"},{"startTime":616.043,"endTime":619.523,"body":"Through like who will they"},{"startTime":616.043,"endTime":619.523,"body":"go through to communicate?"},{"startTime":619.523,"endTime":622.253,"body":"Like, Hey, I need something more"},{"startTime":619.523,"endTime":622.253,"body":"from this team, or I need, you know"},{"startTime":622.293,"endTime":626.483,"body":"I hear that developer, whatever is"},{"startTime":622.293,"endTime":626.483,"body":"combative, or I hear that you know, you"},{"startTime":626.483,"endTime":628.343,"body":"guys are always miss your deadlines,"},{"startTime":628.343,"endTime":631.103,"body":"I've been in an organization"},{"startTime":628.343,"endTime":631.103,"body":"where managers have like 30 teams."},{"startTime":631.223,"endTime":635.063,"body":"Yeah, just a, just a completely"},{"startTime":631.223,"endTime":635.063,"body":"unreasonable amount of teams."},{"startTime":635.113,"endTime":639.913,"body":"I'm gonna try to empathize with the"},{"startTime":635.113,"endTime":639.913,"body":"overworked manager who just simply doesn't"},{"startTime":639.913,"endTime":643.603,"body":"have time to come sit with your team to"},{"startTime":639.913,"endTime":643.603,"body":"see what the real problems are and is"},{"startTime":643.603,"endTime":646.228,"body":"just gonna delegate to somebody to say,"},{"startTime":646.228,"endTime":648.118,"body":"Hey, look, you're on the team."},{"startTime":648.718,"endTime":649.768,"body":"You're a smart person."},{"startTime":649.768,"endTime":652.798,"body":"You are somebody, I dunno what,"},{"startTime":649.768,"endTime":652.798,"body":"senior Scrum master, whatever"},{"startTime":652.798,"endTime":655.678,"body":"product, I don't know what it is,"},{"startTime":652.798,"endTime":655.678,"body":"hey, bring it up to your team."},{"startTime":656.068,"endTime":656.998,"body":"Make a decision."},{"startTime":657.048,"endTime":660.438,"body":"Let let me know what the plan is so that"},{"startTime":657.048,"endTime":660.438,"body":"I have confidence it's being handled."},{"startTime":660.438,"endTime":665.598,"body":"So if I'm ever asked, and usually I'm"},{"startTime":660.438,"endTime":665.598,"body":"not ever asked, but if I'm ever asked,"},{"startTime":665.748,"endTime":667.668,"body":"I can say, Hey, the team's got it."},{"startTime":667.698,"endTime":670.278,"body":"This is what they did, this is what they"},{"startTime":667.698,"endTime":670.278,"body":"took, this is the evidence they're built."},{"startTime":670.278,"endTime":671.058,"body":"You know, and that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":671.058,"endTime":672.108,"body":"Like who does that?"},{"startTime":672.468,"endTime":672.678,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":672.678,"endTime":673.968,"body":"So that's a great point."},{"startTime":674.188,"endTime":675.898,"body":"I wanna just double"},{"startTime":674.188,"endTime":675.898,"body":"click on what you said."},{"startTime":675.928,"endTime":679.768,"body":"The team's job collectively, you can"},{"startTime":675.928,"endTime":679.768,"body":"break it down into individual roles if"},{"startTime":679.768,"endTime":681.988,"body":"you like it, it ultimately boils down to."},{"startTime":682.498,"endTime":684.298,"body":"You need to make your boss look good."},{"startTime":684.388,"endTime":685.708,"body":"That that's what it boil down to."},{"startTime":685.708,"endTime":685.828,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":685.948,"endTime":690.748,"body":"So if they're asked in your example, and"},{"startTime":685.948,"endTime":690.748,"body":"they don't have a, a decent answer to that"},{"startTime":690.748,"endTime":692.968,"body":"question, then that's not a good thing."},{"startTime":692.998,"endTime":693.358,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":693.548,"endTime":696.543,"body":"as far as who that person is, more"},{"startTime":693.548,"endTime":696.543,"body":"often than not, it is the scrum"},{"startTime":696.543,"endTime":699.033,"body":"master, so that's pulled aside and"},{"startTime":696.543,"endTime":699.033,"body":"being asked these things, right?"},{"startTime":699.033,"endTime":699.034,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":699.123,"endTime":701.493,"body":"Um, I mean, sometimes it"},{"startTime":699.123,"endTime":701.493,"body":"depends, I suppose, right?"},{"startTime":701.493,"endTime":704.353,"body":"Sometimes maybe it's the product"},{"startTime":701.493,"endTime":704.353,"body":"owner to , what are we doing?"},{"startTime":704.353,"endTime":705.883,"body":"Why are we always missing the goal?"},{"startTime":705.883,"endTime":707.443,"body":"Are you setting realistic goals?"},{"startTime":707.773,"endTime":708.673,"body":"Those sorts of things."},{"startTime":708.673,"endTime":710.173,"body":"But typically it's the"},{"startTime":708.673,"endTime":710.173,"body":"scrum master, right?"},{"startTime":710.173,"endTime":712.693,"body":"Your team, the team you're on, right?"},{"startTime":712.853,"endTime":716.753,"body":"I could see it being the product"},{"startTime":712.853,"endTime":716.753,"body":"owner from a business perspective."},{"startTime":716.758,"endTime":719.393,"body":"Like, hey, like, Hey, how come your"},{"startTime":716.758,"endTime":719.393,"body":"product isn't making more money?"},{"startTime":719.393,"endTime":723.496,"body":"Heck, basically, if someone's approaching"},{"startTime":719.393,"endTime":723.496,"body":"you with a business metric, I could see"},{"startTime":723.496,"endTime":724.906,"body":"them funneling through the product owner."},{"startTime":725.206,"endTime":729.646,"body":"But if, if the scrum master truly"},{"startTime":725.206,"endTime":729.646,"body":"is a , a, a decentralized member"},{"startTime":729.646,"endTime":734.636,"body":"of leadership a delegated piece of"},{"startTime":729.646,"endTime":734.636,"body":"leadership down to the team, and the"},{"startTime":734.636,"endTime":739.496,"body":"scrum master represents that piece, , then"},{"startTime":734.636,"endTime":739.496,"body":"I could see it being the Scrum master."},{"startTime":740.736,"endTime":745.536,"body":"I mean, more often than not, the Scrum"},{"startTime":740.736,"endTime":745.536,"body":"master is a non delegated piece of"},{"startTime":745.836,"endTime":747.426,"body":"management rather than leadership."},{"startTime":747.889,"endTime":750.859,"body":"so I'm choosing those words because"},{"startTime":747.889,"endTime":750.859,"body":"that's typically what happens there."},{"startTime":750.859,"endTime":752.929,"body":"Report centric as an organization."},{"startTime":753.049,"endTime":753.229,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":753.229,"endTime":756.959,"body":"And the scrum master is basically"},{"startTime":753.229,"endTime":756.959,"body":"being interrogated, frankly, you know?"},{"startTime":756.959,"endTime":758.269,"body":"Um, yeah, but what, what"},{"startTime":756.959,"endTime":758.269,"body":"should they be though?"},{"startTime":758.539,"endTime":763.819,"body":"Well, so when you say what sh I ideal"},{"startTime":758.539,"endTime":763.819,"body":"the ideal, the i, the ideal should"},{"startTime":763.819,"endTime":768.979,"body":"be that they should be a trusted"},{"startTime":763.819,"endTime":768.979,"body":"member of the organization, right?"},{"startTime":769.069,"endTime":769.159,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":769.399,"endTime":773.449,"body":". So leadership should basically"},{"startTime":769.399,"endTime":773.449,"body":"set the goals and leave the scrum"},{"startTime":773.449,"endTime":775.699,"body":"master to attain those goals."},{"startTime":775.699,"endTime":778.279,"body":"Now, of course, there could be you"},{"startTime":775.699,"endTime":778.279,"body":"know, there could be precedents"},{"startTime":778.279,"endTime":781.549,"body":"there where the scrum master needs"},{"startTime":778.279,"endTime":781.549,"body":"to escalate for risks, et cetera."},{"startTime":781.549,"endTime":785.149,"body":"But sure, in the normal, quote"},{"startTime":781.549,"endTime":785.149,"body":"unquote, right, in the normal working"},{"startTime":785.149,"endTime":789.619,"body":"environment, the scrum master should"},{"startTime":785.149,"endTime":789.619,"body":"not be the whipping person, basically."},{"startTime":789.949,"endTime":794.029,"body":"Uh, and you do see that quite often in"},{"startTime":789.949,"endTime":794.029,"body":"these organizations where, , they roll"},{"startTime":794.029,"endTime":797.249,"body":"up through technology, it, it management."},{"startTime":797.399,"endTime":797.489,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":797.819,"endTime":801.759,"body":"as opposed to leadership who understand"},{"startTime":797.819,"endTime":801.759,"body":"hopefully you know, what motivates people."},{"startTime":801.789,"endTime":801.879,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":802.124,"endTime":802.179,"body":", right."},{"startTime":802.959,"endTime":803.379,"body":"Um, yeah."},{"startTime":803.379,"endTime":804.399,"body":"So that's what it should be."},{"startTime":804.399,"endTime":811.599,"body":"It should be, you know, empower your scrum"},{"startTime":804.399,"endTime":811.599,"body":"master and let them go ahead and deliver,"},{"startTime":812.259,"endTime":814.149,"body":"and then just ask them what they need."},{"startTime":814.399,"endTime":815.239,"body":"That's what it should be."},{"startTime":815.419,"endTime":820.639,"body":"It sounds simple, but you know,"},{"startTime":815.419,"endTime":820.639,"body":"I, I don't see that all too often."},{"startTime":820.789,"endTime":822.919,"body":"When I do see it, it's"},{"startTime":820.789,"endTime":822.919,"body":"remarkably effective."},{"startTime":823.039,"endTime":823.309,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":823.529,"endTime":828.058,"body":"I want to pivot hard pivot,"},{"startTime":823.529,"endTime":828.058,"body":"hard pivot into the PO's input"},{"startTime":828.058,"endTime":829.468,"body":"on technical implementation."},{"startTime":829.978,"endTime":835.22,"body":"I was on a team one time where"},{"startTime":829.978,"endTime":835.22,"body":"the, team members were a couple."},{"startTime":835.37,"endTime":838.88,"body":"It was a mobile development team,"},{"startTime":835.37,"endTime":838.88,"body":"a couple mobile developers, I think"},{"startTime":838.88,"endTime":841.85,"body":"two mobile developers, one for"},{"startTime":838.88,"endTime":841.85,"body":"Android, one for iOS, and a tester."},{"startTime":842.525,"endTime":846.095,"body":". And the tester would basically do some"},{"startTime":842.525,"endTime":846.095,"body":"manual tests and walk through their stuff."},{"startTime":846.155,"endTime":849.235,"body":"And I was a manager in"},{"startTime":846.155,"endTime":849.235,"body":"this uh, organization."},{"startTime":849.235,"endTime":851.845,"body":"I was also a product owner, but"},{"startTime":849.235,"endTime":851.845,"body":"I didn't, my, my, my product"},{"startTime":851.85,"endTime":853.045,"body":"was not the mobile products."},{"startTime":853.555,"endTime":859.185,"body":"And I remember making a case to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":853.555,"endTime":859.185,"body":"you, the,  product person for mobile, you"},{"startTime":859.185,"endTime":861.845,"body":"should really go with automated testing."},{"startTime":862.325,"endTime":865.185,"body":"You should stand up automated"},{"startTime":862.325,"endTime":865.185,"body":"testing so that you don't have to,"},{"startTime":865.185,"endTime":867.945,"body":"like all these manual tests and all"},{"startTime":865.185,"endTime":867.945,"body":"these manual regression tests and"},{"startTime":867.945,"endTime":870.29,"body":"everything that you run through,"},{"startTime":867.945,"endTime":870.29,"body":"you won't run through them anymore."},{"startTime":870.47,"endTime":873.28,"body":"The automation will run and I was"},{"startTime":870.47,"endTime":873.28,"body":"like, you, you basically won't pay"},{"startTime":873.285,"endTime":878.58,"body":"the cost of manual regression anymore"},{"startTime":873.285,"endTime":878.58,"body":"and you can repurpose your one tester"},{"startTime":878.58,"endTime":881.364,"body":"that you have to, to do whatever,"},{"startTime":878.58,"endTime":881.364,"body":"get 'em closer to the business,"},{"startTime":881.564,"endTime":883.094,"body":"bring 'em with you to business calls."},{"startTime":883.334,"endTime":886.574,"body":"Do what you know, have 'em, write"},{"startTime":883.334,"endTime":886.574,"body":"documentation, have 'em write release"},{"startTime":886.574,"endTime":890.144,"body":"notes, whatever, whatever you want,"},{"startTime":886.574,"endTime":890.144,"body":"but get 'em out of this nonsense"},{"startTime":890.144,"endTime":891.524,"body":"regression stuff that they're doing."},{"startTime":892.094,"endTime":895.989,"body":"And as the test manager at the time, I"},{"startTime":892.094,"endTime":895.989,"body":"had automation people that I could have"},{"startTime":895.989,"endTime":898.539,"body":"assigned if they wanted to pay that cost."},{"startTime":899.109,"endTime":901.539,"body":", but there was a, there"},{"startTime":899.109,"endTime":901.539,"body":"was a cost to be paid"},{"startTime":901.619,"endTime":904.469,"body":"the idea is the entire"},{"startTime":901.619,"endTime":904.469,"body":"application was manually tested."},{"startTime":904.739,"endTime":909.189,"body":"So in order to get it to a point where"},{"startTime":904.739,"endTime":909.189,"body":"it's automated as far as testing goes,"},{"startTime":909.819,"endTime":913.209,"body":"they would've had to overcome a certain"},{"startTime":909.819,"endTime":913.209,"body":"amount of what I think of as technical"},{"startTime":913.209,"endTime":916.659,"body":"debt is the, the, there's no automation"},{"startTime":913.209,"endTime":916.659,"body":"in place now for the application."},{"startTime":917.379,"endTime":921.359,"body":"And then once there is full again, for"},{"startTime":917.379,"endTime":921.359,"body":"the listeners, I'm doing super air quotes."},{"startTime":921.749,"endTime":925.734,"body":"Once your critical paths through the"},{"startTime":921.749,"endTime":925.734,"body":"application are automated and you have"},{"startTime":925.734,"endTime":929.364,"body":"automated reports going to your email"},{"startTime":925.734,"endTime":929.364,"body":"every morning or whatever, you know,"},{"startTime":929.364,"endTime":933.384,"body":"or if you have a page that gives you,"},{"startTime":929.364,"endTime":933.384,"body":"you know, green, amber, whatever."},{"startTime":933.384,"endTime":933.544,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":933.544,"endTime":933.924,"body":"The rags."},{"startTime":933.954,"endTime":937.074,"body":"Yeah, then you don't have to,"},{"startTime":933.954,"endTime":937.074,"body":"you don't have to think about it."},{"startTime":937.074,"endTime":940.584,"body":"Like there's a certain level of quality"},{"startTime":937.074,"endTime":940.584,"body":"built into your application that you"},{"startTime":940.584,"endTime":944.454,"body":"no longer have to think about, and it"},{"startTime":940.584,"endTime":944.454,"body":"doesn't cost you anything more other than"},{"startTime":944.454,"endTime":947.694,"body":"the, the tiny, tiny, tiny little cost"},{"startTime":944.454,"endTime":947.694,"body":"of whatever the automation costs to run."},{"startTime":948.174,"endTime":948.534,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":948.594,"endTime":950.754,"body":"And to maintain nothing practically,"},{"startTime":948.594,"endTime":950.754,"body":"which is practically nothing"},{"startTime":950.754,"endTime":952.134,"body":"compared to the cost of change"},{"startTime":952.184,"endTime":959.254,"body":"so I bring up that story because I was"},{"startTime":952.184,"endTime":959.254,"body":"in a similar discussion about uh, the"},{"startTime":959.464,"endTime":966.264,"body":"PO's input on what is like technical,"},{"startTime":959.464,"endTime":966.264,"body":"like hey like you're the po but also like"},{"startTime":966.414,"endTime":968.934,"body":"we don't need your input on technical."},{"startTime":969.744,"endTime":970.524,"body":"implementation."},{"startTime":970.524,"endTime":972.024,"body":"He's doing air quotes for people."},{"startTime":972.024,"endTime":972.624,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":972.684,"endTime":972.954,"body":"Without audio."},{"startTime":972.954,"endTime":973.944,"body":"Technical video rather."},{"startTime":973.974,"endTime":976.074,"body":"Cause, it's not like business value."},{"startTime":976.164,"endTime":977.514,"body":"The customer's not gonna see anything."},{"startTime":977.884,"endTime":983.069,"body":"I think the same thing as adding"},{"startTime":977.884,"endTime":983.069,"body":"automated tests as I think of in like"},{"startTime":983.099,"endTime":986.719,"body":"rolling out your application through"},{"startTime":983.099,"endTime":986.719,"body":"development pipelines through release"},{"startTime":986.719,"endTime":989.924,"body":"pipelines, for example, like the, the"},{"startTime":986.719,"endTime":989.924,"body":"pipeline for that sends your stuff out"},{"startTime":989.924,"endTime":993.344,"body":"to test and then once it clears test"},{"startTime":989.924,"endTime":993.344,"body":"and, and then it goes to stage and once"},{"startTime":993.344,"endTime":995.444,"body":"it clears stage, it clears production."},{"startTime":995.534,"endTime":998.514,"body":"And then if your automated test run"},{"startTime":995.534,"endTime":998.514,"body":"in each different environment, then"},{"startTime":998.519,"endTime":1002.654,"body":"it, it triggers the next deployment"},{"startTime":998.519,"endTime":1002.654,"body":"to happen to the next environment"},{"startTime":1002.804,"endTime":1004.034,"body":"all the way through to production."},{"startTime":1004.034,"endTime":1007.424,"body":"If you trust your deployment process and"},{"startTime":1004.034,"endTime":1007.424,"body":"automated testing all the way through"},{"startTime":1007.424,"endTime":1010.524,"body":"that cycle, it's like the development"},{"startTime":1007.424,"endTime":1010.524,"body":"team would say like, ,  this is not."},{"startTime":1010.899,"endTime":1012.729,"body":"A customer facing feature."},{"startTime":1012.729,"endTime":1017.299,"body":"So use the product person, like, your"},{"startTime":1012.729,"endTime":1017.299,"body":"input's not really necessary about this."},{"startTime":1017.659,"endTime":1017.869,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1017.869,"endTime":1019.479,"body":"A lot of times yeah, I see"},{"startTime":1017.869,"endTime":1019.479,"body":"where you're going with that."},{"startTime":1019.689,"endTime":1023.739,"body":"A lot of times developers say, well,"},{"startTime":1019.689,"endTime":1023.739,"body":"you know, this is, you've given us the,"},{"startTime":1024.459,"endTime":1026.619,"body":"the what, hopefully the why as well."},{"startTime":1026.624,"endTime":1026.629,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1026.709,"endTime":1028.659,"body":"and, and this is the"},{"startTime":1026.709,"endTime":1028.659,"body":"house, so leave us alone."},{"startTime":1028.659,"endTime":1028.929,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1029.379,"endTime":1034.189,"body":"Um, customer doesn't see that, okay,"},{"startTime":1029.379,"endTime":1034.189,"body":"but you delivered or you, you finished"},{"startTime":1034.194,"endTime":1039.019,"body":"that feature at a certain point in time"},{"startTime":1034.194,"endTime":1039.019,"body":"and you are, because of your manual test"},{"startTime":1039.599,"endTime":1043.699,"body":"strategy, there's a, there's a certain"},{"startTime":1039.599,"endTime":1043.699,"body":"time it takes before we can clear all of"},{"startTime":1043.699,"endTime":1045.889,"body":"that and put the thing into production."},{"startTime":1046.279,"endTime":1052.879,"body":"And for, if I was a product person, I"},{"startTime":1046.279,"endTime":1052.879,"body":"would say, wait, that time, that time"},{"startTime":1052.879,"endTime":1058.819,"body":"that you are, you're spending in running"},{"startTime":1052.879,"endTime":1058.819,"body":"manual tests, that is tech debt right"},{"startTime":1058.824,"endTime":1062.539,"body":"there because you're sitting on value,"},{"startTime":1058.824,"endTime":1062.539,"body":"technically in the lean way of thinking."},{"startTime":1062.569,"endTime":1063.199,"body":"That's waste."},{"startTime":1063.229,"endTime":1063.409,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1063.439,"endTime":1066.739,"body":"So you're, you're sitting there with"},{"startTime":1063.439,"endTime":1066.739,"body":"something that's finished, ready to go."},{"startTime":1066.799,"endTime":1066.949,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1067.334,"endTime":1071.144,"body":"but you're not able to get it out there"},{"startTime":1067.334,"endTime":1071.144,"body":"fast cuz you're not using, you know,"},{"startTime":1071.144,"endTime":1072.764,"body":"release pipelines and things like that."},{"startTime":1072.764,"endTime":1072.944,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1073.184,"endTime":1076.494,"body":"So often when teams say, well the"},{"startTime":1073.184,"endTime":1076.494,"body":"customer doesn't see that, that's"},{"startTime":1076.499,"endTime":1080.094,"body":"a bit of a curve ball because they"},{"startTime":1076.499,"endTime":1080.094,"body":"don't really mean that, or if they do,"},{"startTime":1080.094,"endTime":1082.284,"body":"they, they're not seeing the truth."},{"startTime":1082.284,"endTime":1082.584,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1082.584,"endTime":1082.644,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1082.884,"endTime":1085.554,"body":"The customer doesn't"},{"startTime":1082.884,"endTime":1085.554,"body":"see value early enough."},{"startTime":1085.884,"endTime":1088.874,"body":"Uh, you've done the work you"},{"startTime":1085.884,"endTime":1088.874,"body":"know, doing things like manual"},{"startTime":1088.874,"endTime":1090.524,"body":"testing, it's an opportunity cost."},{"startTime":1090.529,"endTime":1091.754,"body":"There is where I'm going with this."},{"startTime":1091.754,"endTime":1092.084,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1092.564,"endTime":1096.974,"body":"So pay down that up upfront, get"},{"startTime":1092.564,"endTime":1096.974,"body":"that automated testing implemented"},{"startTime":1096.979,"endTime":1098.234,"body":"in, and e reap the benefits."},{"startTime":1098.234,"endTime":1101.804,"body":"Timing again, it automatically runs"},{"startTime":1098.234,"endTime":1101.804,"body":"thousands of tests in a minute."},{"startTime":1101.809,"endTime":1102.464,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1102.494,"endTime":1104.444,"body":"Which you can't do the computers so fast."},{"startTime":1104.474,"endTime":1105.854,"body":"You can't do that manually."},{"startTime":1106.244,"endTime":1107.384,"body":"What's the value of that?"},{"startTime":1107.414,"endTime":1110.474,"body":"Well, it's gonna catch something out"},{"startTime":1107.414,"endTime":1110.474,"body":"of those thousand tests that you're not"},{"startTime":1110.474,"endTime":1115.754,"body":"gonna catch until your manual tester"},{"startTime":1110.474,"endTime":1115.754,"body":"goes through his 20, 30, 50 tests."},{"startTime":1115.754,"endTime":1116.924,"body":"They're not gonna do a thousand."},{"startTime":1117.374,"endTime":1119.174,"body":"Otherwise, you never release"},{"startTime":1117.374,"endTime":1119.174,"body":"anything to production."},{"startTime":1119.544,"endTime":1121.554,"body":"So there's a, there's"},{"startTime":1119.544,"endTime":1121.554,"body":"an argument right there."},{"startTime":1121.914,"endTime":1125.304,"body":"the product owner coming back"},{"startTime":1121.914,"endTime":1125.304,"body":"to the, the point here mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1125.754,"endTime":1128.994,"body":", they're not necessarily"},{"startTime":1125.754,"endTime":1128.994,"body":"saying how to do this."},{"startTime":1128.994,"endTime":1130.464,"body":"They're just saying to do this."},{"startTime":1130.674,"endTime":1131.094,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1131.154,"endTime":1134.244,"body":"So they're saying, well, maybe"},{"startTime":1131.154,"endTime":1134.244,"body":"you should use automated testing"},{"startTime":1134.244,"endTime":1136.374,"body":"because it will allow us to X, Y, Z."},{"startTime":1136.374,"endTime":1138.834,"body":"Well, the team in the, like, I"},{"startTime":1136.374,"endTime":1138.834,"body":"remember the team in this point"},{"startTime":1138.834,"endTime":1142.584,"body":"had a, had a go like they had a"},{"startTime":1138.834,"endTime":1142.584,"body":"pretty serious back and forth."},{"startTime":1142.764,"endTime":1144.234,"body":"Again, I was not part of the team."},{"startTime":1144.234,"endTime":1144.294,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1144.324,"endTime":1145.224,"body":"I was just a manager."},{"startTime":1145.554,"endTime":1149.074,"body":"And the team had a pretty serious back"},{"startTime":1145.554,"endTime":1149.074,"body":"and forth with that product owner at,"},{"startTime":1149.134,"endTime":1153.289,"body":"in that organization because the team"},{"startTime":1149.134,"endTime":1153.289,"body":"were, was basically saying like, we don't"},{"startTime":1153.289,"endTime":1155.539,"body":"want to do the manual testing anymore."},{"startTime":1155.819,"endTime":1161.58,"body":"So, so basically the, the whole team minus"},{"startTime":1155.819,"endTime":1161.58,"body":"the product owner approached me to help"},{"startTime":1161.58,"endTime":1167.04,"body":"them convince the product owner that this"},{"startTime":1161.58,"endTime":1167.04,"body":"was worthwhile to bring in and prioritize."},{"startTime":1167.58,"endTime":1170.55,"body":"Another way they could have gone about"},{"startTime":1167.58,"endTime":1170.55,"body":"it is just to tell the product owner,"},{"startTime":1170.55,"endTime":1175.35,"body":"like, Hey, we don't wanna make any"},{"startTime":1170.55,"endTime":1175.35,"body":"changes anymore until you adopt X, Y, Z."},{"startTime":1175.35,"endTime":1178.53,"body":"And they could have pitched that"},{"startTime":1175.35,"endTime":1178.53,"body":"case, just like any other stakeholder"},{"startTime":1178.53,"endTime":1183.54,"body":"says, like, I don't, I don't want to"},{"startTime":1178.53,"endTime":1183.54,"body":"adopt your application unless you add"},{"startTime":1183.54,"endTime":1187.8,"body":"this, whatever PDF functionality or"},{"startTime":1183.54,"endTime":1187.8,"body":"this other functionality, the ability"},{"startTime":1187.8,"endTime":1189.09,"body":"to scan a document or something."},{"startTime":1189.09,"endTime":1192.566,"body":"Like, whatever the intake forum is, where"},{"startTime":1189.09,"endTime":1192.566,"body":"a, where the prioritization happens."},{"startTime":1192.866,"endTime":1198.096,"body":"I bring this up because the way it's"},{"startTime":1192.866,"endTime":1198.096,"body":"been asked to me now that I'm strictly a"},{"startTime":1198.101,"endTime":1203.806,"body":"product owner and not a manager anymore,"},{"startTime":1198.101,"endTime":1203.806,"body":"was, I don't understand why the product"},{"startTime":1203.806,"endTime":1207.473,"body":"owner thinks that they even have input"},{"startTime":1203.806,"endTime":1207.473,"body":"into, should I work on this or not to"},{"startTime":1207.473,"endTime":1211.953,"body":"which my suggestion was, if the product"},{"startTime":1207.473,"endTime":1211.953,"body":"owner wants to have a manually deployed"},{"startTime":1211.958,"endTime":1215.553,"body":"and manually tested application and"},{"startTime":1211.958,"endTime":1215.553,"body":"continue with that level of technical"},{"startTime":1215.553,"endTime":1220.65,"body":"debt forever, there may be reasons you,"},{"startTime":1215.553,"endTime":1220.65,"body":"you need to talk about those reasons."},{"startTime":1221.01,"endTime":1221.19,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1221.56,"endTime":1224.41,"body":"Their pushback to this was"},{"startTime":1221.56,"endTime":1224.41,"body":"it's an engineering decision,"},{"startTime":1224.41,"endTime":1225.49,"body":"not a product decision."},{"startTime":1225.94,"endTime":1230.41,"body":"Ah, to, to knock down that technical"},{"startTime":1225.94,"endTime":1230.41,"body":"debt to, and then, , we were done."},{"startTime":1230.47,"endTime":1233.65,"body":"Cuz I was like, I'm not discussing"},{"startTime":1230.47,"endTime":1233.65,"body":"this anymore because I, first of"},{"startTime":1233.65,"endTime":1235.57,"body":"all, it's not, it's not appropriate"},{"startTime":1233.65,"endTime":1235.57,"body":"cuz it wasn't my product."},{"startTime":1235.57,"endTime":1238.66,"body":"I certainly have opinions,"},{"startTime":1235.57,"endTime":1238.66,"body":"but also I'm not, I'm not"},{"startTime":1238.66,"endTime":1240.01,"body":"working on any of these teams."},{"startTime":1240.6,"endTime":1242.05,"body":", where's, where's, where's the camera?"},{"startTime":1242.25,"endTime":1243.75,"body":"I'm not working on any of these teams."},{"startTime":1243.99,"endTime":1245.64,"body":"I'm not the manager"},{"startTime":1243.99,"endTime":1245.64,"body":"for any of these teams."},{"startTime":1245.94,"endTime":1249.09,"body":"And I only have influence over"},{"startTime":1245.94,"endTime":1249.09,"body":"these teams, not controller"},{"startTime":1249.09,"endTime":1250.38,"body":"management over any of these teams."},{"startTime":1250.44,"endTime":1251.1,"body":"The German three."},{"startTime":1251.19,"endTime":1251.64,"body":"There it is."},{"startTime":1251.8,"endTime":1252.94,"body":"here's my suggestion."},{"startTime":1253.086,"endTime":1256.446,"body":"Now it's up to you, the team members"},{"startTime":1253.086,"endTime":1256.446,"body":"to push it forward with your product"},{"startTime":1256.446,"endTime":1258.246,"body":"person and that, and that's about it."},{"startTime":1258.546,"endTime":1260.286,"body":"Like who, who's right,"},{"startTime":1258.546,"endTime":1260.286,"body":"who's wrong in that?"},{"startTime":1260.291,"endTime":1261.791,"body":"How hard can the team members push?"},{"startTime":1262.121,"endTime":1267.191,"body":"Should, is it actually the product"},{"startTime":1262.121,"endTime":1267.191,"body":"manager's job, product owner's job to"},{"startTime":1267.191,"endTime":1272.221,"body":"say like, I disagree with, we need to"},{"startTime":1267.191,"endTime":1272.221,"body":"knock down this technical debt now."},{"startTime":1272.566,"endTime":1276.646,"body":"And I'm good with this technical debt for"},{"startTime":1272.566,"endTime":1276.646,"body":"X number of time or, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1277.036,"endTime":1277.756,"body":"I think it is."},{"startTime":1277.936,"endTime":1278.506,"body":"Oh, okay."},{"startTime":1278.536,"endTime":1279.556,"body":"No, I tell you why."},{"startTime":1279.556,"endTime":1284.056,"body":"I think it is because the, it's the"},{"startTime":1279.556,"endTime":1284.056,"body":"product owner who is responsible for"},{"startTime":1284.176,"endTime":1286.096,"body":"delivering things sprint over sprint."},{"startTime":1286.096,"endTime":1289.396,"body":"So they may look at the, the team"},{"startTime":1286.096,"endTime":1289.396,"body":"suggestion, yes, there's this tech debt."},{"startTime":1289.936,"endTime":1290.566,"body":"To your point, yeah."},{"startTime":1290.566,"endTime":1291.616,"body":"Put it in the backlog."},{"startTime":1291.616,"endTime":1293.056,"body":"And as a product owner, I might."},{"startTime":1293.896,"endTime":1294.676,"body":"You make a point."},{"startTime":1294.796,"endTime":1294.916,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1295.156,"endTime":1298.636,"body":", but we're, you know, we really"},{"startTime":1295.156,"endTime":1298.636,"body":"need to get dysfunctionality out."},{"startTime":1298.846,"endTime":1301.666,"body":"So maybe I'll just, I'll just"},{"startTime":1298.846,"endTime":1301.666,"body":"weather that for a little while."},{"startTime":1301.966,"endTime":1303.676,"body":"Two or three sprints or whatever it is."},{"startTime":1303.826,"endTime":1304.286,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1304.286,"endTime":1308.296,"body":"And then we'll bring it in as"},{"startTime":1304.286,"endTime":1308.296,"body":"a tech debt remediation item."},{"startTime":1308.366,"endTime":1310.851,"body":"don't you only have a certain amount"},{"startTime":1308.366,"endTime":1310.851,"body":"of time until like your development"},{"startTime":1310.851,"endTime":1315.771,"body":"team just grabs pitchforks and  gets"},{"startTime":1310.851,"endTime":1315.771,"body":"tired of like, middle, like pajama"},{"startTime":1315.771,"endTime":1318.261,"body":"party deployments and Oh boy."},{"startTime":1318.321,"endTime":1319.011,"body":"Yeah, you do."},{"startTime":1319.016,"endTime":1323.481,"body":"Unless you have access to these you know,"},{"startTime":1319.016,"endTime":1323.481,"body":"these minions that basically live offshore"},{"startTime":1323.486,"endTime":1325.281,"body":"and you can say, oh, you don't like it."},{"startTime":1325.286,"endTime":1326.091,"body":"No, no, I know."},{"startTime":1326.096,"endTime":1326.871,"body":"It's as horrible."},{"startTime":1327.071,"endTime":1327.671,"body":"yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":1327.671,"endTime":1331.991,"body":"I mean, you really, as a product"},{"startTime":1327.671,"endTime":1331.991,"body":"need to think hard about this, right?"},{"startTime":1332.261,"endTime":1332.381,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1332.381,"endTime":1334.151,"body":"Because it's gonna impact you."},{"startTime":1335.051,"endTime":1336.131,"body":"Not in the long term."},{"startTime":1336.131,"endTime":1338.501,"body":"I would say probably in"},{"startTime":1336.131,"endTime":1338.501,"body":"the medium term, right?"},{"startTime":1338.501,"endTime":1338.561,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1338.591,"endTime":1341.501,"body":"I mean, in the short term, you might be"},{"startTime":1338.591,"endTime":1341.501,"body":"under the gun that deliver a feature or"},{"startTime":1341.501,"endTime":1343.181,"body":"two that the team's working on right now."},{"startTime":1343.331,"endTime":1346.601,"body":"Maybe the next one or two sprints,"},{"startTime":1343.331,"endTime":1346.601,"body":"but pretty quickly you need to grapple"},{"startTime":1346.691,"endTime":1349.751,"body":"with, you know, these two things"},{"startTime":1346.691,"endTime":1349.751,"body":"that we talked about, automation"},{"startTime":1349.751,"endTime":1351.851,"body":"testing and using release pipelines."},{"startTime":1352.181,"endTime":1355.431,"body":"Otherwise you are going to"},{"startTime":1352.181,"endTime":1355.431,"body":"stumble over your own feet."},{"startTime":1355.481,"endTime":1358.226,"body":"I mean the big takeaway from"},{"startTime":1355.481,"endTime":1358.226,"body":"that conversation was the"},{"startTime":1358.226,"endTime":1360.056,"body":"perspective of the developers."},{"startTime":1360.185,"endTime":1364.505,"body":"Working on that product was why"},{"startTime":1360.185,"endTime":1364.505,"body":"should we go to the product owner for"},{"startTime":1364.505,"endTime":1368.365,"body":"anything that doesn't have customer"},{"startTime":1364.505,"endTime":1368.365,"body":"visibility, that was their perspective."},{"startTime":1369.032,"endTime":1371.362,"body":"I understand it, but"},{"startTime":1369.032,"endTime":1371.362,"body":"I don't agree with it."},{"startTime":1371.422,"endTime":1374.932,"body":"you know, I, I, I think, I think they"},{"startTime":1371.422,"endTime":1374.932,"body":"need to work together as a team, right."},{"startTime":1374.937,"endTime":1379.312,"body":"The product owner and the developers"},{"startTime":1374.937,"endTime":1379.312,"body":"and, and each make their case rather"},{"startTime":1379.312,"endTime":1382.642,"body":"than say the customer doesn't see this"},{"startTime":1379.312,"endTime":1382.642,"body":"and that's why we shouldn't do this."},{"startTime":1382.672,"endTime":1382.852,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1383.282,"endTime":1384.632,"body":"I mean, you could extend the argument."},{"startTime":1384.632,"endTime":1387.817,"body":"It's a bit, a bit ridiculous, but"},{"startTime":1384.632,"endTime":1387.817,"body":"you could say, why should we clean"},{"startTime":1387.817,"endTime":1392.527,"body":"up our feature toggles once they've"},{"startTime":1387.817,"endTime":1392.527,"body":"been turned on in production?"},{"startTime":1392.527,"endTime":1393.397,"body":"Now they're live."},{"startTime":1393.487,"endTime":1393.607,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1393.787,"endTime":1395.227,"body":"We introduced them three months ago."},{"startTime":1395.227,"endTime":1396.217,"body":"They're still in the code."},{"startTime":1396.307,"endTime":1396.847,"body":"Who cares?"},{"startTime":1396.852,"endTime":1397.507,"body":"They don't see 'em."},{"startTime":1397.717,"endTime":1397.807,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1397.807,"endTime":1401.047,"body":"Well that's that, that you're accumulating"},{"startTime":1397.807,"endTime":1401.047,"body":"in that production code, right?"},{"startTime":1401.052,"endTime":1401.107,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1401.107,"endTime":1402.907,"body":"You really should be"},{"startTime":1401.107,"endTime":1402.907,"body":"cleaning up after yourself."},{"startTime":1402.967,"endTime":1403.207,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1403.487,"endTime":1404.657,"body":"so they could argue that."},{"startTime":1404.657,"endTime":1404.777,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1404.777,"endTime":1405.347,"body":"And then, and, and."},{"startTime":1407.012,"endTime":1409.862,"body":", some product owners could argue the"},{"startTime":1407.012,"endTime":1409.862,"body":"other way, and they, they, they could"},{"startTime":1409.862,"endTime":1412.202,"body":"say, well, why is you bother going"},{"startTime":1409.862,"endTime":1412.202,"body":"in there and doing all that stuff?"},{"startTime":1412.202,"endTime":1413.552,"body":"Work on this new stuff for me?"},{"startTime":1413.762,"endTime":1413.942,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1413.972,"endTime":1414.302,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1414.302,"endTime":1414.362,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1414.362,"endTime":1417.152,"body":"And that's again, short term"},{"startTime":1414.362,"endTime":1417.152,"body":"thinking, but it prevails."},{"startTime":1417.438,"endTime":1420.288,"body":"oh boy, I don't think this is"},{"startTime":1417.438,"endTime":1420.288,"body":"discussed enough, this topic."},{"startTime":1420.348,"endTime":1422.988,"body":"Like, well, maybe we might put a pin in"},{"startTime":1420.348,"endTime":1422.988,"body":"this one and come back to it in there."},{"startTime":1423.018,"endTime":1425.058,"body":"Yeah, I'd like to, yeah,"},{"startTime":1423.018,"endTime":1425.058,"body":"I'd like to come back to it."},{"startTime":1425.058,"endTime":1425.268,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1425.273,"endTime":1429.313,"body":"I don't think this one's talked about in"},{"startTime":1425.273,"endTime":1429.313,"body":"like, this is this this like borderline"},{"startTime":1429.393,"endTime":1433.443,"body":"was I'm doing the sandpaper, motion"},{"startTime":1429.393,"endTime":1433.443,"body":". It's like that borderline, this, this"},{"startTime":1433.443,"endTime":1437.343,"body":"rubs directly up against like, er,"},{"startTime":1433.443,"endTime":1437.343,"body":"craftmanship and uh, like that kind of"},{"startTime":1437.348,"endTime":1442.173,"body":"movement of you know, why would we , why"},{"startTime":1437.348,"endTime":1442.173,"body":"would we make it pretty, it works."},{"startTime":1442.173,"endTime":1444.933,"body":"Like, why don't, don't touch"},{"startTime":1442.173,"endTime":1444.933,"body":"things if it wor if they work."},{"startTime":1444.983,"endTime":1449.033,"body":"I could go super in depth on this topic"},{"startTime":1444.983,"endTime":1449.033,"body":"about like, hey, if you look at like,"},{"startTime":1449.123,"endTime":1452.163,"body":"you should be able to read a function"},{"startTime":1449.123,"endTime":1452.163,"body":"quickly and understand what it means."},{"startTime":1452.683,"endTime":1455.693,"body":"And if you don't, if you can't"},{"startTime":1452.683,"endTime":1455.693,"body":"quickly understand what the function"},{"startTime":1455.693,"endTime":1459.953,"body":"does, like, like, let's, let's,"},{"startTime":1455.693,"endTime":1459.953,"body":"let's take that one off line."},{"startTime":1460.943,"endTime":1465.643,"body":"But, but, but, but Brian, I have a"},{"startTime":1460.943,"endTime":1465.643,"body":"thousand lines of comments in my function."},{"startTime":1465.673,"endTime":1466.763,"body":"If you read 'em, you'll love this."},{"startTime":1466.793,"endTime":1469.783,"body":"I it's a three line"},{"startTime":1466.793,"endTime":1469.783,"body":"function like German three."},{"startTime":1469.783,"endTime":1470.083,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":1470.113,"endTime":1470.593,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1470.653,"endTime":1472.663,"body":"We only read German three on this podcast."},{"startTime":1472.903,"endTime":1474.073,"body":"I'm with you on reducing."},{"startTime":1475.068,"endTime":1479.238,"body":"To a point I I, I had a, a director"},{"startTime":1475.068,"endTime":1479.238,"body":"of development one time who was like,"},{"startTime":1479.688,"endTime":1482.328,"body":"if the code is written, well, you"},{"startTime":1479.688,"endTime":1482.328,"body":"shouldn't, you shouldn't need comment."},{"startTime":1482.508,"endTime":1483.158,"body":"I don't agree with that."},{"startTime":1483.168,"endTime":1487.158,"body":"I don't, I don't necessarily agree with"},{"startTime":1483.168,"endTime":1487.158,"body":"that, but I understand what he was saying."},{"startTime":1487.573,"endTime":1490.003,"body":"But some code is very complex."},{"startTime":1490.213,"endTime":1490.903,"body":"Um, agree."},{"startTime":1490.903,"endTime":1494.108,"body":"So I, like, I, I don't a hundred"},{"startTime":1490.903,"endTime":1494.108,"body":"percent agree,  but also my,"},{"startTime":1494.168,"endTime":1498.008,"body":"my technical competence level"},{"startTime":1494.168,"endTime":1498.008,"body":"is nowhere near where his was."},{"startTime":1498.158,"endTime":1502.028,"body":"So if I try to have the technical"},{"startTime":1498.158,"endTime":1502.028,"body":"competence level of everybody on my"},{"startTime":1502.028,"endTime":1506.792,"body":"team at a very high level, and I spend"},{"startTime":1502.028,"endTime":1506.792,"body":"a lot of time and energy into basically"},{"startTime":1506.797,"endTime":1510.362,"body":"internal training and stuff like that,"},{"startTime":1506.797,"endTime":1510.362,"body":"to, to make sure that every developer I"},{"startTime":1510.362,"endTime":1516.962,"body":"hire gets to that same, you know, minimum"},{"startTime":1510.362,"endTime":1516.962,"body":"technical competence level, then I will"},{"startTime":1516.962,"endTime":1518.552,"body":"be in line with what he was talking about."},{"startTime":1518.602,"endTime":1521.452,"body":"I still don't agree because there"},{"startTime":1518.602,"endTime":1521.452,"body":"are some things that you need to."},{"startTime":1521.602,"endTime":1525.142,"body":", you need to make clear to those"},{"startTime":1521.602,"endTime":1525.142,"body":"that read the code behind you."},{"startTime":1525.142,"endTime":1525.232,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1525.502,"endTime":1530.542,"body":". Um, I, I think this idea of"},{"startTime":1525.502,"endTime":1530.542,"body":"self-documenting code is nonsense."},{"startTime":1530.822,"endTime":1534.092,"body":", I see people documenting code"},{"startTime":1530.822,"endTime":1534.092,"body":"for the sake of documenting code."},{"startTime":1534.092,"endTime":1538.382,"body":"Like they'll just say, you know, I equals"},{"startTime":1534.092,"endTime":1538.382,"body":"I plus one, or I plus plus, whatever"},{"startTime":1538.387,"endTime":1539.462,"body":"it is, whatever language you use."},{"startTime":1539.462,"endTime":1544.232,"body":"And then, and the comment next to it just"},{"startTime":1539.462,"endTime":1544.232,"body":"says, increment I, well, duh, . Right."},{"startTime":1544.232,"endTime":1545.282,"body":"So why?"},{"startTime":1545.287,"endTime":1546.332,"body":"Yes, I know."},{"startTime":1546.422,"endTime":1550.832,"body":"So that this is where minimal"},{"startTime":1546.422,"endTime":1550.832,"body":"but useful commenting is an art."},{"startTime":1551.252,"endTime":1552.872,"body":"And not every like, key point."},{"startTime":1552.872,"endTime":1553.022,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1553.022,"endTime":1557.192,"body":"I mean, we need to invest in developers"},{"startTime":1553.022,"endTime":1557.192,"body":"to make sure they reach that level."},{"startTime":1557.522,"endTime":1562.365,"body":"Uh, this is where some level of coding"},{"startTime":1557.522,"endTime":1562.365,"body":"standards are warranted, I feel so"},{"startTime":1562.37,"endTime":1566.295,"body":"that when somebody new comes in,"},{"startTime":1562.37,"endTime":1566.295,"body":"somebody else who's been through that"},{"startTime":1566.835,"endTime":1569.655,"body":"can take 'em under their wing pair"},{"startTime":1566.835,"endTime":1569.655,"body":"programming is an ideal way to do it."},{"startTime":1569.655,"endTime":1570.525,"body":"Sure, sure."},{"startTime":1570.615,"endTime":1573.322,"body":"You know, if that's what's"},{"startTime":1570.615,"endTime":1573.322,"body":"afforded at your In your shop."},{"startTime":1573.401,"endTime":1576.181,"body":"I mean, sometimes though it's"},{"startTime":1573.401,"endTime":1576.181,"body":"difficult, I grant you that, like,"},{"startTime":1576.331,"endTime":1579.901,"body":"let's say you, you are not just pair"},{"startTime":1576.331,"endTime":1579.901,"body":"programming, but you're swarming and"},{"startTime":1579.901,"endTime":1581.731,"body":"people are just busy, busy, busy."},{"startTime":1582.051,"endTime":1582.531,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1582.621,"endTime":1586.161,"body":"Just have somebody going after"},{"startTime":1582.621,"endTime":1586.161,"body":"you and add in the comment."},{"startTime":1586.161,"endTime":1587.121,"body":"They're part of the mob."},{"startTime":1587.181,"endTime":1587.331,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1587.361,"endTime":1588.771,"body":"They understand what's going on."},{"startTime":1588.801,"endTime":1592.295,"body":"They're, they're swarming, but that's"},{"startTime":1588.801,"endTime":1592.295,"body":"no excuse to not put any comments in."},{"startTime":1592.475,"endTime":1595.595,"body":"long time ago, I was in a, at a"},{"startTime":1592.475,"endTime":1595.595,"body":"hospital, I was actually coding then"},{"startTime":1595.865,"endTime":1600.585,"body":"in my boss, who was very technical"},{"startTime":1595.865,"endTime":1600.585,"body":"could read the code, but he would"},{"startTime":1600.585,"endTime":1603.705,"body":"still say, if you're not here, how"},{"startTime":1600.585,"endTime":1603.705,"body":"would somebody know what this does?"},{"startTime":1603.765,"endTime":1603.945,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1604.035,"endTime":1609.435,"body":"And he insisted on the comments being"},{"startTime":1604.035,"endTime":1609.435,"body":"plain English language, nothing technical."},{"startTime":1609.515,"endTime":1609.785,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1609.785,"endTime":1612.455,"body":"Pass this into this array"},{"startTime":1609.785,"endTime":1612.455,"body":"means nothing to somebody new."},{"startTime":1612.455,"endTime":1613.415,"body":"It's like, why?"},{"startTime":1613.501,"endTime":1618.351,"body":"You know, just say, validate postal codes"},{"startTime":1613.501,"endTime":1618.351,"body":"from the post office database or whatever."},{"startTime":1618.621,"endTime":1620.501,"body":"I mean, that, that's"},{"startTime":1618.621,"endTime":1620.501,"body":"meaningful, at least, right."},{"startTime":1620.698,"endTime":1625.378,"body":"We could do a whole podcast on and"},{"startTime":1620.698,"endTime":1625.378,"body":"get a guest in specifically to talk"},{"startTime":1625.383,"endTime":1630.788,"body":"about software craftsmanship and all"},{"startTime":1625.383,"endTime":1630.788,"body":"these little in like, in-depth topics."},{"startTime":1630.818,"endTime":1634.818,"body":"Cuz I, I have, I have my own"},{"startTime":1630.818,"endTime":1634.818,"body":"kind of beliefs crafted on my"},{"startTime":1634.818,"endTime":1636.528,"body":"own experience in this topic."},{"startTime":1636.533,"endTime":1643.973,"body":"I would say like six months passed"},{"startTime":1636.533,"endTime":1643.973,"body":"when I originally wrote a a a a script."},{"startTime":1644.678,"endTime":1648.038,"body":". I have no memory of"},{"startTime":1644.678,"endTime":1648.038,"body":"writing the script at all."},{"startTime":1648.158,"endTime":1650.948,"body":"So basically I'm reading somebody"},{"startTime":1648.158,"endTime":1650.948,"body":"else's code at that point, when"},{"startTime":1650.948,"endTime":1654.158,"body":"you end up swearing up a piece of"},{"startTime":1650.948,"endTime":1654.158,"body":"code and go, who wrote this crap?"},{"startTime":1654.338,"endTime":1655.658,"body":"And then you realize it was you?"},{"startTime":1655.658,"endTime":1656.228,"body":"It was me."},{"startTime":1656.378,"endTime":1659.818,"body":"It's even worse for me cuz I had junior"},{"startTime":1656.378,"endTime":1659.818,"body":"people in the department at that point,"},{"startTime":1659.908,"endTime":1663.388,"body":"and I'd bring them over in and I would say"},{"startTime":1659.908,"endTime":1663.388,"body":"like, Hey, step through this code with me."},{"startTime":1663.478,"endTime":1664.468,"body":"They'd be like, whose code is it?"},{"startTime":1664.468,"endTime":1664.858,"body":"Oh, it's."},{"startTime":1665.788,"endTime":1667.558,"body":"And I have no idea what it does."},{"startTime":1667.778,"endTime":1668.018,"body":"All."},{"startTime":1668.018,"endTime":1670.958,"body":"I know is it does the, this is the"},{"startTime":1668.018,"endTime":1670.958,"body":"outcome I'm trying to get outta this"},{"startTime":1670.958,"endTime":1675.218,"body":"coat and it does it, I just can't,"},{"startTime":1670.958,"endTime":1675.218,"body":"I don't understand how I got there,"},{"startTime":1675.458,"endTime":1677.348,"body":"but I wrote this like six months ago"},{"startTime":1677.668,"endTime":1678.028,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1678.358,"endTime":1678.538,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1678.538,"endTime":1682.618,"body":"So I, I'm a big fan of bringing, so if"},{"startTime":1678.538,"endTime":1682.618,"body":"you're on a shop where you're developers"},{"startTime":1682.618,"endTime":1686.488,"body":"develop something and, and another"},{"startTime":1682.618,"endTime":1686.488,"body":"group is basically gonna support it,"},{"startTime":1686.488,"endTime":1690.508,"body":"like operations or production support"},{"startTime":1686.488,"endTime":1690.508,"body":"group, I'm a big fan of bringing those"},{"startTime":1690.508,"endTime":1694.318,"body":"guys in during development so they"},{"startTime":1690.508,"endTime":1694.318,"body":"understand how the code is written."},{"startTime":1694.318,"endTime":1694.408,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1694.413,"endTime":1698.408,"body":"And they would be very quick to point"},{"startTime":1694.413,"endTime":1698.408,"body":"out, , when something is not obvious."},{"startTime":1698.408,"endTime":1698.708,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1698.713,"endTime":1698.788,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1699.368,"endTime":1701.618,"body":"Um, I, I think it just"},{"startTime":1699.368,"endTime":1701.618,"body":"always contextual as well."},{"startTime":1701.618,"endTime":1703.418,"body":"It depends on the language you're using."},{"startTime":1703.468,"endTime":1703.708,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1703.888,"endTime":1705.95,"body":"Again, , I could talk the"},{"startTime":1703.888,"endTime":1705.95,"body":"whole podcast on this topic"},{"startTime":1705.971,"endTime":1708.161,"body":"we should have a podcast particularly"},{"startTime":1705.971,"endTime":1708.161,"body":"on, we should, we should."},{"startTime":1708.161,"endTime":1709.181,"body":"Let's make a note of that."},{"startTime":1709.181,"endTime":1710.951,"body":"I can think of somebody"},{"startTime":1709.181,"endTime":1710.951,"body":"to bring in for that too."},{"startTime":1711.051,"endTime":1711.411,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1711.416,"endTime":1711.941,"body":"Okay, good."},{"startTime":1711.996,"endTime":1715.406,"body":"another hard pivot since staying"},{"startTime":1711.996,"endTime":1715.406,"body":"in line with our potpourri uh,"},{"startTime":1715.411,"endTime":1720.641,"body":"theme of the podcast is I recently"},{"startTime":1715.411,"endTime":1720.641,"body":"was asked, how do you work with"},{"startTime":1721.231,"endTime":1728.201,"body":"multiple products that operate"},{"startTime":1721.231,"endTime":1728.201,"body":"under one suite of products without"},{"startTime":1728.261,"endTime":1730.481,"body":"cannibalizing any one of the products?"},{"startTime":1730.761,"endTime":1731.751,"body":"I feel like this is a."},{"startTime":1732.291,"endTime":1734.551,"body":"Particularly fragrant"},{"startTime":1732.291,"endTime":1734.551,"body":"piece of the potpourri."},{"startTime":1734.571,"endTime":1735.231,"body":"They're all fragrant."},{"startTime":1735.231,"endTime":1737.121,"body":"But this, this one has a nice nice aroma."},{"startTime":1737.201,"endTime":1739.841,"body":"How to work on multiple products."},{"startTime":1739.841,"endTime":1741.641,"body":"Products under one suite."},{"startTime":1741.641,"endTime":1743.171,"body":"Under a suite, single suite."},{"startTime":1743.226,"endTime":1744.336,"body":"You have multiple products."},{"startTime":1744.666,"endTime":1746.376,"body":"They have synergy with one another."},{"startTime":1746.376,"endTime":1749.136,"body":"Maybe they use similar data, or"},{"startTime":1746.376,"endTime":1749.136,"body":"maybe they use the same data from"},{"startTime":1749.136,"endTime":1753.396,"body":"the database or whatever, but"},{"startTime":1749.136,"endTime":1753.396,"body":"they don't cannibalize each other."},{"startTime":1754.206,"endTime":1758.146,"body":"Yeah, I mean, what, what immediately"},{"startTime":1754.206,"endTime":1758.146,"body":"springs to mind immediately is you know,"},{"startTime":1758.506,"endTime":1760.576,"body":"product suites like Microsoft Office."},{"startTime":1760.846,"endTime":1761.026,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1761.086,"endTime":1761.356,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1761.356,"endTime":1763.126,"body":"And you have Word and Excel, et cetera."},{"startTime":1763.126,"endTime":1763.816,"body":"Different part of it."},{"startTime":1764.286,"endTime":1768.106,"body":"Actually, actually, Microsoft Office"},{"startTime":1764.286,"endTime":1768.106,"body":"is a great example because in all"},{"startTime":1768.106,"endTime":1773.686,"body":"the office tools, you can make things"},{"startTime":1768.106,"endTime":1773.686,"body":"bold, italicized, change the font,"},{"startTime":1773.986,"endTime":1776.386,"body":"do whatever, delete, copy, paste."},{"startTime":1776.626,"endTime":1779.926,"body":"Like you have some functions"},{"startTime":1776.626,"endTime":1779.926,"body":"that are available, so that,"},{"startTime":1779.926,"endTime":1781.116,"body":"that's a great example."},{"startTime":1781.196,"endTime":1782.246,"body":"from, from that perspective,"},{"startTime":1782.426,"endTime":1783.536,"body":"how to do this."},{"startTime":1783.536,"endTime":1784.976,"body":"That's the, that's the topic here."},{"startTime":1784.981,"endTime":1786.056,"body":"How to do this, right."},{"startTime":1786.056,"endTime":1786.386,"body":"How to do it."},{"startTime":1786.386,"endTime":1786.596,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1786.686,"endTime":1790.346,"body":"I, I, I think one is to really"},{"startTime":1786.686,"endTime":1790.346,"body":"recognize, first of all, the"},{"startTime":1790.351,"endTime":1792.086,"body":"boundaries of each of the two products."},{"startTime":1792.086,"endTime":1793.166,"body":"Let's just take two for now."},{"startTime":1793.171,"endTime":1793.376,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1793.376,"endTime":1794.276,"body":"It can get complex."},{"startTime":1794.426,"endTime":1794.606,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1794.666,"endTime":1796.286,"body":"Uh, A and B, let's call 'em A and B."},{"startTime":1796.286,"endTime":1796.436,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1796.796,"endTime":1800.396,"body":"And to recognize the boundaries"},{"startTime":1796.796,"endTime":1800.396,"body":"of intersection, right."},{"startTime":1800.401,"endTime":1803.786,"body":"On this venn diagram of A and"},{"startTime":1800.401,"endTime":1803.786,"body":"B, like, , how close are they?"},{"startTime":1803.846,"endTime":1806.916,"body":"And, and then the degree of"},{"startTime":1803.846,"endTime":1806.916,"body":"overlap between those two."},{"startTime":1806.946,"endTime":1807.246,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1807.486,"endTime":1807.546,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1807.551,"endTime":1811.506,"body":"So I, I don't mean in just in, in"},{"startTime":1807.551,"endTime":1811.506,"body":"that plane, like in a Venn diagram."},{"startTime":1811.506,"endTime":1811.566,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1811.566,"endTime":1815.946,"body":"I mean, how much truly is shared"},{"startTime":1811.566,"endTime":1815.946,"body":"for the customer when, when they"},{"startTime":1815.951,"endTime":1819.216,"body":"look at something, will they even"},{"startTime":1815.951,"endTime":1819.216,"body":"see B when they look at product A?"},{"startTime":1819.266,"endTime":1820.936,"body":"And, and, and then what is your strategy?"},{"startTime":1820.941,"endTime":1824.426,"body":"Do you want to give each product"},{"startTime":1820.941,"endTime":1824.426,"body":"characteristics where they, they"},{"startTime":1824.426,"endTime":1827.126,"body":"look like they're standalone,"},{"startTime":1824.426,"endTime":1827.126,"body":"but they're part of a suite?"},{"startTime":1827.246,"endTime":1827.426,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1827.516,"endTime":1830.246,"body":"Or do you want commonality across them?"},{"startTime":1830.246,"endTime":1831.656,"body":"Like in, like in office, right?"},{"startTime":1831.656,"endTime":1831.716,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1831.746,"endTime":1832.916,"body":"Uh, Microsoft office."},{"startTime":1832.921,"endTime":1833.076,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1833.306,"endTime":1836.396,"body":"Every ribbon looks the same when it"},{"startTime":1833.306,"endTime":1836.396,"body":"comes to simple functions, right?"},{"startTime":1836.401,"endTime":1836.486,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1836.566,"endTime":1840.326,"body":"like, like you said, you know, bold,"},{"startTime":1836.566,"endTime":1840.326,"body":"italicized, underlying, et cetera,"},{"startTime":1840.356,"endTime":1841.886,"body":"and all the shortcuts are the same."},{"startTime":1842.126,"endTime":1844.556,"body":"Do you want that or do you"},{"startTime":1842.126,"endTime":1844.556,"body":"want uniqueness, but the"},{"startTime":1844.556,"endTime":1845.936,"body":"products are part of a suite?"},{"startTime":1845.936,"endTime":1848.786,"body":"I'm trying to think of a, a suite like"},{"startTime":1845.936,"endTime":1848.786,"body":"that, but I can't come up with it."},{"startTime":1848.786,"endTime":1848.906,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1849.426,"endTime":1852.331,"body":"Microsoft office is a great"},{"startTime":1849.426,"endTime":1852.331,"body":"example to stick with, like"},{"startTime":1852.331,"endTime":1853.531,"body":"the stick with word and  Excel."},{"startTime":1853.691,"endTime":1858.041,"body":"One is basically for replicating"},{"startTime":1853.691,"endTime":1858.041,"body":"books and the other is replicating"},{"startTime":1858.281,"endTime":1862.841,"body":"tables for some reason, like tabular"},{"startTime":1858.281,"endTime":1862.841,"body":"data, basically working with data."},{"startTime":1863.001,"endTime":1866.811,"body":"If I'm gonna attack this subject that"},{"startTime":1863.001,"endTime":1866.811,"body":"we're talking about now, not multiple"},{"startTime":1866.811,"endTime":1870.421,"body":"products, not cannibalizing each other,"},{"startTime":1866.811,"endTime":1870.421,"body":"I would say first of all, segment"},{"startTime":1870.421,"endTime":1873.421,"body":"your users for each application."},{"startTime":1875.011,"endTime":1879.642,"body":"And if the users for the applications"},{"startTime":1875.011,"endTime":1879.642,"body":"truly are the same,  Om \u0026 Brian's"},{"startTime":1879.667,"endTime":1883.922,"body":"software development company,  the"},{"startTime":1879.667,"endTime":1883.922,"body":"infamous that we might sell tomorrow."},{"startTime":1883.922,"endTime":1886.112,"body":"So you better keep your resume polished."},{"startTime":1886.262,"endTime":1890.792,"body":"if, if we develop two applications,"},{"startTime":1886.262,"endTime":1890.792,"body":"both for people working on word"},{"startTime":1890.792,"endTime":1895.019,"body":"processing documents and they're"},{"startTime":1890.792,"endTime":1895.019,"body":"separate applications, what the"},{"startTime":1895.024,"endTime":1896.669,"body":"hell are we doing with our lives?"},{"startTime":1896.669,"endTime":1897.989,"body":"This is why we need to sell the company."},{"startTime":1898.139,"endTime":1899.039,"body":"No, seriously though."},{"startTime":1899.039,"endTime":1900.479,"body":"What, what I agree with you."},{"startTime":1900.479,"endTime":1902.339,"body":"This is what I was trying to"},{"startTime":1900.479,"endTime":1902.339,"body":"say with the overlap, right?"},{"startTime":1902.519,"endTime":1903.689,"body":"I, I'll give you another example."},{"startTime":1903.689,"endTime":1905.009,"body":"There's a stick with word in Excel."},{"startTime":1905.369,"endTime":1909.719,"body":"Both of these products need the"},{"startTime":1905.369,"endTime":1909.719,"body":"ability for the user to print."},{"startTime":1909.839,"endTime":1910.079,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1910.169,"endTime":1910.469,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1910.469,"endTime":1910.619,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1910.649,"endTime":1911.969,"body":"You wouldn't develop that twice."},{"startTime":1911.969,"endTime":1912.779,"body":"You would develop."},{"startTime":1913.184,"endTime":1915.014,"body":"A module that prints, you know."},{"startTime":1915.014,"endTime":1915.104,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1915.134,"endTime":1916.994,"body":"And then just bolt it into each of those."},{"startTime":1916.994,"endTime":1918.284,"body":"It's the same module."},{"startTime":1918.434,"endTime":1918.764,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1918.769,"endTime":1918.824,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1919.064,"endTime":1920.744,"body":"so how does that answer this point?"},{"startTime":1920.864,"endTime":1924.904,"body":"Well, you're not cannibalizing one"},{"startTime":1920.864,"endTime":1924.904,"body":"product doing it differently here and here"},{"startTime":1924.904,"endTime":1930.004,"body":"because that's a sour UX for the person"},{"startTime":1924.904,"endTime":1930.004,"body":"to have to remember that they have to, you"},{"startTime":1930.004,"endTime":1935.134,"body":"know, hit control function, alt p in one"},{"startTime":1930.004,"endTime":1935.134,"body":"product and just control P in another one."},{"startTime":1935.434,"endTime":1935.794,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1936.064,"endTime":1939.904,"body":"It should be a consistent UI experience"},{"startTime":1936.064,"endTime":1939.904,"body":"for them where you ask for them."},{"startTime":1939.964,"endTime":1940.084,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1940.384,"endTime":1943.684,"body":"That is one way, but cannibalizing"},{"startTime":1940.384,"endTime":1943.684,"body":"the other here, here's where my"},{"startTime":1943.689,"endTime":1945.064,"body":"head is going with this question."},{"startTime":1945.094,"endTime":1945.424,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1945.429,"endTime":1945.564,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1946.774,"endTime":1951.244,"body":"I'm trying to stay with, with Word"},{"startTime":1946.774,"endTime":1951.244,"body":"and Excel, but any two products when"},{"startTime":1951.244,"endTime":1953.884,"body":"you have a piece of functionality"},{"startTime":1951.244,"endTime":1953.884,"body":"that's not core to that product"},{"startTime":1954.184,"endTime":1958.024,"body":"and a piece of functionality that"},{"startTime":1954.184,"endTime":1958.024,"body":"is not core to product B as well."},{"startTime":1958.029,"endTime":1958.624,"body":"A and B."},{"startTime":1958.864,"endTime":1960.454,"body":"And you're developing those."},{"startTime":1960.604,"endTime":1961.714,"body":"Yeah, just for those two."},{"startTime":1962.074,"endTime":1967.114,"body":"that is when you're cannibalizing because,"},{"startTime":1962.074,"endTime":1967.114,"body":"you're basically taking away the need"},{"startTime":1967.114,"endTime":1969.634,"body":"for a user to even get to product B."},{"startTime":1969.904,"endTime":1974.644,"body":"If they can do some, or even if it's"},{"startTime":1969.904,"endTime":1974.644,"body":"awkwardly some things in product"},{"startTime":1974.649,"endTime":1976.384,"body":"A, they won't buy you product B."},{"startTime":1976.654,"endTime":1976.804,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1976.984,"endTime":1980.254,"body":"That's the cannibalization to"},{"startTime":1976.984,"endTime":1980.254,"body":"me more than anything else."},{"startTime":1980.407,"endTime":1982.117,"body":"And limiting your opportunities there."},{"startTime":1982.217,"endTime":1986.597,"body":"If I was a product manager for Word"},{"startTime":1982.217,"endTime":1986.597,"body":"and I was like, I want word to be able"},{"startTime":1986.597,"endTime":1992.597,"body":"to open any Excel document and show it"},{"startTime":1986.597,"endTime":1992.597,"body":"in the Word document the same way you"},{"startTime":1992.597,"endTime":1997.007,"body":"would show an, an Excel, I would expect"},{"startTime":1992.597,"endTime":1997.007,"body":"my director or product or whatever, or"},{"startTime":1997.127,"endTime":1999.827,"body":"you know, product officer or whatever"},{"startTime":1997.127,"endTime":1999.827,"body":"you have in the organization to be"},{"startTime":1999.827,"endTime":2001.477,"body":"like, why, why would you wanna do that?"},{"startTime":2002.077,"endTime":2003.457,"body":"Well, it sounds like a waste of time."},{"startTime":2004.057,"endTime":2004.237,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":2004.242,"endTime":2006.727,"body":"Why don't they just use"},{"startTime":2004.242,"endTime":2006.727,"body":"Excel to opening Excel files?"},{"startTime":2007.177,"endTime":2012.227,"body":"Or, or for word  to process all of the"},{"startTime":2007.177,"endTime":2012.227,"body":"formulas that Excel can process, which"},{"startTime":2012.232,"endTime":2017.057,"body":"it does very poorly, by the way, . Um,"},{"startTime":2012.232,"endTime":2017.057,"body":"yeah, and, and this is where I think"},{"startTime":2017.057,"endTime":2021.007,"body":"you had that middle, that kind of"},{"startTime":2017.057,"endTime":2021.007,"body":"gray area where they came up with what"},{"startTime":2021.007,"endTime":2024.547,"body":"did they call them plugins and stuff"},{"startTime":2021.007,"endTime":2024.547,"body":"like that to be able to do something."},{"startTime":2024.607,"endTime":2024.817,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2025.687,"endTime":2028.537,"body":"If you're gonna support plugins and"},{"startTime":2025.687,"endTime":2028.537,"body":"you're not charging for them anyway."},{"startTime":2028.597,"endTime":2030.727,"body":"You know, what, what are you doing?"},{"startTime":2030.787,"endTime":2032.017,"body":"I, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2032.017,"endTime":2033.337,"body":"It's, it's a, it's a gray area."},{"startTime":2033.337,"endTime":2036.907,"body":"I don't think we've got clean"},{"startTime":2033.337,"endTime":2036.907,"body":"cut examples with word and Excel"},{"startTime":2036.907,"endTime":2038.647,"body":"with cannibalizing products."},{"startTime":2038.707,"endTime":2041.047,"body":"I think you were, you were onto"},{"startTime":2038.707,"endTime":2041.047,"body":"something when you said, identify"},{"startTime":2041.047,"endTime":2045.067,"body":"who is your, you know, who is"},{"startTime":2041.047,"endTime":2045.067,"body":"your user persona for each one."},{"startTime":2045.347,"endTime":2048.527,"body":"What I want to get from this topic before"},{"startTime":2045.347,"endTime":2048.527,"body":"we get out of this topic, before we"},{"startTime":2048.527,"endTime":2055.157,"body":"pivot to something else, is all, all of"},{"startTime":2048.527,"endTime":2055.157,"body":"your products have to connect all the"},{"startTime":2055.157,"endTime":2058.967,"body":"way back up to your corporate strategy."},{"startTime":2059.417,"endTime":2059.927,"body":"Amen."},{"startTime":2060.017,"endTime":2061.277,"body":"Or multiple strategies."},{"startTime":2061.277,"endTime":2061.517,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2061.517,"endTime":2062.267,"body":"It could be more than one."},{"startTime":2062.627,"endTime":2062.807,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2063.137,"endTime":2066.527,"body":"And then your strategy or"},{"startTime":2063.137,"endTime":2066.527,"body":"strategies, your strategy."},{"startTime":2067.397,"endTime":2070.457,"body":"empowers and informs the product vision."},{"startTime":2071.627,"endTime":2077.431,"body":"Your product vision leads to"},{"startTime":2071.627,"endTime":2077.431,"body":"goals and your goals create"},{"startTime":2077.431,"endTime":2079.244,"body":"the roadmap for your product."},{"startTime":2079.436,"endTime":2082.556,"body":"Hopefully all of your product goals"},{"startTime":2079.436,"endTime":2082.556,"body":"are not the same for all your."},{"startTime":2083.306,"endTime":2083.846,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2083.846,"endTime":2086.456,"body":"And hopefully your vision is not"},{"startTime":2083.846,"endTime":2086.456,"body":"all the same for all your products."},{"startTime":2086.456,"endTime":2091.376,"body":"So if, if your product vision for ev,"},{"startTime":2086.456,"endTime":2091.376,"body":"for Microsoft Word, Microsoft, Excel"},{"startTime":2091.776,"endTime":2094.291,"body":"Vizio, whatever anyone use Vizio anymore"},{"startTime":2094.471,"endTime":2098.611,"body":"If, if all of those visions corporate,"},{"startTime":2094.471,"endTime":2098.611,"body":"you know, strategies and product"},{"startTime":2098.641,"endTime":2102.961,"body":"visions are all boiler plate exactly"},{"startTime":2098.641,"endTime":2102.961,"body":"the same, you have a problem."},{"startTime":2103.261,"endTime":2103.651,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2103.651,"endTime":2106.261,"body":"You should seek to solve that"},{"startTime":2103.651,"endTime":2106.261,"body":"problem first before we're"},{"startTime":2106.261,"endTime":2107.161,"body":"dealing with this question."},{"startTime":2107.161,"endTime":2107.281,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2107.286,"endTime":2108.601,"body":"You have product fuzziness."},{"startTime":2108.691,"endTime":2108.961,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2108.961,"endTime":2110.221,"body":"You have a, you have a real problem."},{"startTime":2110.221,"endTime":2113.251,"body":"And, and then, and then I would, I"},{"startTime":2110.221,"endTime":2113.251,"body":"would take this to the next step,"},{"startTime":2113.431,"endTime":2115.481,"body":"which is hey, let's look at metrics."},{"startTime":2115.991,"endTime":2117.671,"body":"Look, users that use word."},{"startTime":2118.841,"endTime":2123.041,"body":", are they looking to"},{"startTime":2118.841,"endTime":2123.041,"body":"deal with tabular data?"},{"startTime":2123.461,"endTime":2125.681,"body":"Are they looking to deal with"},{"startTime":2123.461,"endTime":2125.681,"body":"tables and formulas and whatever?"},{"startTime":2126.221,"endTime":2126.431,"body":"Probably not."},{"startTime":2126.821,"endTime":2129.551,"body":"Users that use Word are"},{"startTime":2126.821,"endTime":2129.551,"body":"looking to write books."},{"startTime":2129.671,"endTime":2131.201,"body":"They're looking to write write reports."},{"startTime":2131.201,"endTime":2132.551,"body":"They're looking to write documents."},{"startTime":2132.911,"endTime":2137.861,"body":"They're looking to long form text with"},{"startTime":2132.911,"endTime":2137.861,"body":"paragraphs like they were read in a book."},{"startTime":2138.341,"endTime":2142.361,"body":"Is that the vision because of"},{"startTime":2138.341,"endTime":2142.361,"body":"the vision for Word Over Time"},{"startTime":2142.361,"endTime":2144.551,"body":"becomes Well through the data?"},{"startTime":2144.611,"endTime":2145.241,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":2145.321,"endTime":2147.991,"body":"I don't normally introduce new"},{"startTime":2145.321,"endTime":2147.991,"body":"ideas into the podcast, but when"},{"startTime":2148.021,"endTime":2149.791,"body":"I do, it's nearly an hour in."},{"startTime":2149.941,"endTime":2150.751,"body":"I love that meme."},{"startTime":2152.191,"endTime":2159.241,"body":"Hey you, through our data we see"},{"startTime":2152.191,"endTime":2159.241,"body":"that most people that use Word are"},{"startTime":2159.241,"endTime":2161.371,"body":"embedding tables in the application."},{"startTime":2161.911,"endTime":2165.241,"body":"So we need a new application that"},{"startTime":2161.911,"endTime":2165.241,"body":"specifically deals with tables."},{"startTime":2166.021,"endTime":2167.461,"body":", we're gonna call it Excel."},{"startTime":2168.061,"endTime":2168.781,"body":"Here we are."},{"startTime":2168.781,"endTime":2171.691,"body":"Welcome to 1993, right?"},{"startTime":2172.051,"endTime":2172.351,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2172.351,"endTime":2175.661,"body":"So I think you've just gone somewhere"},{"startTime":2172.351,"endTime":2175.661,"body":"where my head was going in terms of"},{"startTime":2175.666,"endTime":2180.911,"body":"cannibalization, we're all familiar"},{"startTime":2175.666,"endTime":2180.911,"body":"with products that have a freebie"},{"startTime":2180.916,"endTime":2184.571,"body":"version, and then they put the"},{"startTime":2180.916,"endTime":2184.571,"body":"carrot in front of you and go, sure."},{"startTime":2184.571,"endTime":2185.951,"body":"You could do this, do this, do this."},{"startTime":2186.011,"endTime":2187.901,"body":"Oh, upgrade to pro."},{"startTime":2187.991,"endTime":2188.201,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2188.261,"endTime":2188.681,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2188.861,"endTime":2191.991,"body":"That's one way of making sure"},{"startTime":2188.861,"endTime":2191.991,"body":"you have product segmentation."},{"startTime":2191.991,"endTime":2195.621,"body":"You don't, you don't cannibalize"},{"startTime":2191.991,"endTime":2195.621,"body":"the one product Sure."},{"startTime":2196.071,"endTime":2198.321,"body":"By having, you know, segments, right."},{"startTime":2198.831,"endTime":2200.121,"body":"For the free one, yes."},{"startTime":2200.121,"endTime":2204.141,"body":"You give them some things that actually"},{"startTime":2200.121,"endTime":2204.141,"body":"work great, but more importantly,"},{"startTime":2204.441,"endTime":2207.921,"body":"you put the lolly in front of him,"},{"startTime":2204.441,"endTime":2207.921,"body":"as we say in England, um Right."},{"startTime":2207.951,"endTime":2210.831,"body":"Dangle look at it to"},{"startTime":2207.951,"endTime":2210.831,"body":"say, you can do this too."},{"startTime":2210.831,"endTime":2212.181,"body":"Isn't this fantastic?"},{"startTime":2212.361,"endTime":2213.171,"body":"You can do this."},{"startTime":2213.201,"endTime":2215.481,"body":"It's just $2 a month or whatever it is."},{"startTime":2215.481,"endTime":2215.661,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2215.991,"endTime":2219.591,"body":"and then if you wanna do a little"},{"startTime":2215.991,"endTime":2219.591,"body":"more, then it's only $10 a month."},{"startTime":2219.741,"endTime":2219.981,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2219.986,"endTime":2220.221,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2220.221,"endTime":2220.621,"body":"But yeah."},{"startTime":2220.621,"endTime":2221.621,"body":"But that, that decision."},{"startTime":2222.291,"endTime":2226.491,"body":"to go with a different product order to,"},{"startTime":2222.291,"endTime":2226.491,"body":"to, to split out this piece to a different"},{"startTime":2226.491,"endTime":2229.311,"body":"offering that is a data-driven decision."},{"startTime":2229.361,"endTime":2236.741,"body":"Let's say that like, oh, well 45% of"},{"startTime":2229.361,"endTime":2236.741,"body":"people use Excel, use it to make grids,"},{"startTime":2236.741,"endTime":2238.751,"body":"which are just gonna copy paste into a."},{"startTime":2240.251,"endTime":2241.481,"body":"and publish or whatever."},{"startTime":2241.721,"endTime":2245.431,"body":"Like, okay, well that's that's"},{"startTime":2241.721,"endTime":2245.431,"body":"data that we didn't have before."},{"startTime":2245.551,"endTime":2249.961,"body":"Maybe we, maybe we wanna make the"},{"startTime":2245.551,"endTime":2249.961,"body":"import from one product to another."},{"startTime":2250.141,"endTime":2251.311,"body":"Uh, a big thing."},{"startTime":2251.571,"endTime":2253.951,"body":"Or, or maybe we gonna wanna"},{"startTime":2251.571,"endTime":2253.951,"body":"give this some kind of automatic"},{"startTime":2253.951,"endTime":2255.241,"body":"wizard functionality or what?"},{"startTime":2256.021,"endTime":2256.861,"body":". I'm a wizard."},{"startTime":2259.711,"endTime":2260.485,"body":". You need a hat?"},{"startTime":2260.564,"endTime":2261.434,"body":"oh man."},{"startTime":2261.674,"endTime":2263.384,"body":"Oh, speaking of Wizard."},{"startTime":2263.389,"endTime":2266.264,"body":"If you like our podcast on"},{"startTime":2263.389,"endTime":2266.264,"body":"Wizards and Lizards, you should"},{"startTime":2266.844,"endTime":2267.854,"body":"subscribe to our new game."},{"startTime":2267.854,"endTime":2268.544,"body":"Oh, nevermind."},{"startTime":2270.884,"endTime":2272.114,"body":", your point is extremely valid."},{"startTime":2272.124,"endTime":2274.784,"body":"No, no, I mean, the point is like,"},{"startTime":2272.124,"endTime":2274.784,"body":"if you ha if you like, if you're"},{"startTime":2274.784,"endTime":2278.414,"body":"even gonna create a separate"},{"startTime":2274.784,"endTime":2278.414,"body":"product, like there should be data"},{"startTime":2278.414,"endTime":2281.384,"body":"leading you to, how did that product"},{"startTime":2278.414,"endTime":2281.384,"body":"get created in the first place?"},{"startTime":2281.389,"endTime":2281.894,"body":"I know, I know."},{"startTime":2281.894,"endTime":2284.684,"body":"We start, we started with Word and Excel,"},{"startTime":2281.894,"endTime":2284.684,"body":"which is probably terrible examples."},{"startTime":2284.684,"endTime":2287.984,"body":"Cause those, those pro like, there, there"},{"startTime":2284.684,"endTime":2287.984,"body":"probably are people listening to this pod."},{"startTime":2288.014,"endTime":2291.314,"body":"Actually, statistically, most"},{"startTime":2288.014,"endTime":2291.314,"body":"people that listened to this podcast"},{"startTime":2291.494,"endTime":2294.224,"body":"were born after Word and Excel."},{"startTime":2294.224,"endTime":2296.444,"body":"Both were products live"},{"startTime":2294.224,"endTime":2296.444,"body":"in the, in the ecosystem."},{"startTime":2296.444,"endTime":2296.534,"body":"Them."},{"startTime":2297.344,"endTime":2297.554,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2297.554,"endTime":2297.824,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2297.829,"endTime":2298.694,"body":"And, and I'm one of them."},{"startTime":2298.694,"endTime":2298.844,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2298.844,"endTime":2299.744,"body":"I absolutely agree."},{"startTime":2300.074,"endTime":2306.434,"body":"So I think the point you make , no,"},{"startTime":2300.074,"endTime":2306.434,"body":"we're not . I'm very young."},{"startTime":2306.524,"endTime":2306.974,"body":"What am I talking?"},{"startTime":2307.094,"endTime":2307.454,"body":"No"},{"startTime":2310.301,"endTime":2313.611,"body":"the point you make about these"},{"startTime":2310.301,"endTime":2313.611,"body":"part decisions being data"},{"startTime":2313.611,"endTime":2315.291,"body":"driven is extremely valid."},{"startTime":2315.471,"endTime":2315.651,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2315.651,"endTime":2316.011,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2316.221,"endTime":2320.461,"body":"The only time you might wanna"},{"startTime":2316.221,"endTime":2320.461,"body":"venture a product out in the"},{"startTime":2320.466,"endTime":2322.011,"body":"field is just to gather data."},{"startTime":2322.401,"endTime":2322.581,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2322.581,"endTime":2322.851,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2322.941,"endTime":2323.841,"body":"In in that case."},{"startTime":2323.846,"endTime":2324.111,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2324.111,"endTime":2328.131,"body":"I mean, that's like the initial state"},{"startTime":2324.111,"endTime":2328.131,"body":"where you're looking to see what will"},{"startTime":2328.131,"endTime":2332.271,"body":"stick you know, do all of the, use all"},{"startTime":2328.131,"endTime":2332.271,"body":"of the tools that you disposal to gather"},{"startTime":2332.271,"endTime":2337.221,"body":"data and then use that data to formulate"},{"startTime":2332.271,"endTime":2337.221,"body":"a strategic direction for the product."},{"startTime":2337.221,"endTime":2337.461,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2337.701,"endTime":2341.611,"body":"Um, but you know, when, when it"},{"startTime":2337.701,"endTime":2341.611,"body":"comes to, to cannibalization."},{"startTime":2341.751,"endTime":2346.581,"body":", I don't see how you get away from"},{"startTime":2341.751,"endTime":2346.581,"body":"trying to figure out who your core"},{"startTime":2346.581,"endTime":2350.721,"body":"personas are for users of each"},{"startTime":2346.581,"endTime":2350.721,"body":"of the products, and then looking"},{"startTime":2350.721,"endTime":2353.001,"body":"at those in two different ways."},{"startTime":2353.001,"endTime":2356.781,"body":"One is, can we make sure that"},{"startTime":2353.001,"endTime":2356.781,"body":"we can still sell both products"},{"startTime":2356.781,"endTime":2358.221,"body":"to two different personas?"},{"startTime":2358.221,"endTime":2359.181,"body":"That's one question."},{"startTime":2359.481,"endTime":2362.211,"body":"And the other question I think is"},{"startTime":2359.481,"endTime":2362.211,"body":"the opposite of that, which is,"},{"startTime":2362.481,"endTime":2366.501,"body":"you know, if I make this product,"},{"startTime":2362.481,"endTime":2366.501,"body":"the, the, the Swiss Army knife of"},{"startTime":2366.501,"endTime":2369.561,"body":"everything, then now who's my customer?"},{"startTime":2369.621,"endTime":2370.071,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2370.161,"endTime":2370.221,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2370.521,"endTime":2373.821,"body":"That, that's tricky"},{"startTime":2370.521,"endTime":2373.821,"body":"sometimes to, to pull off."},{"startTime":2373.826,"endTime":2377.781,"body":"Well, if you, if you make your"},{"startTime":2373.826,"endTime":2377.781,"body":"product the Swiss Army knife, now the"},{"startTime":2377.781,"endTime":2382.131,"body":"problem is not like, Hey, well, I,"},{"startTime":2377.781,"endTime":2382.131,"body":"I could like, the pushback against"},{"startTime":2382.131,"endTime":2386.601,"body":"what you just said is everybody who"},{"startTime":2382.131,"endTime":2386.601,"body":"wants both will want your product."},{"startTime":2386.871,"endTime":2389.691,"body":"Well, that's not true because now your"},{"startTime":2386.871,"endTime":2389.691,"body":"product is gonna be crappy at both."},{"startTime":2390.351,"endTime":2391.911,"body":"Like, it might not be crappy."},{"startTime":2391.916,"endTime":2392.631,"body":"It might be good at."},{"startTime":2393.381,"endTime":2398.061,"body":"one thing for feature A and two"},{"startTime":2393.381,"endTime":2398.061,"body":"things for feature B, whereas"},{"startTime":2398.061,"endTime":2402.531,"body":"another competitive product is like"},{"startTime":2398.061,"endTime":2402.531,"body":"eight things for feature B, right?"},{"startTime":2402.621,"endTime":2406.401,"body":"Because you're contact switching your"},{"startTime":2402.621,"endTime":2406.401,"body":"development team now between feature"},{"startTime":2406.401,"endTime":2412.341,"body":"A and B cuz you like, like if we go"},{"startTime":2406.401,"endTime":2412.341,"body":"back to Microsoft Word slash Excel."},{"startTime":2413.091,"endTime":2416.451,"body":"Okay, I'm gonna have a"},{"startTime":2413.091,"endTime":2416.451,"body":"great word processing."},{"startTime":2416.686,"endTime":2421.849,"body":"Application and I'm gonna have a great"},{"startTime":2416.686,"endTime":2421.849,"body":"spreadsheet processing application, or"},{"startTime":2421.849,"endTime":2427.909,"body":"I'm gonna have one crappy half a Word"},{"startTime":2421.849,"endTime":2427.909,"body":"document application and, and you know,"},{"startTime":2428.149,"endTime":2431.869,"body":"a tabular whatever record application,"},{"startTime":2428.149,"endTime":2431.869,"body":"which is not really super great either."},{"startTime":2431.869,"endTime":2435.139,"body":"Or like, that's probably the cleanest"},{"startTime":2431.869,"endTime":2435.139,"body":"way to get this point across this"},{"startTime":2435.169,"endTime":2438.409,"body":"is say, Hey, do you wanna have one"},{"startTime":2435.169,"endTime":2438.409,"body":"application that kind of crappily does"},{"startTime":2438.409,"endTime":2443.059,"body":"both, or do you have, you wanna have two"},{"startTime":2438.409,"endTime":2443.059,"body":"applications that, oh one is fantastic"},{"startTime":2443.059,"endTime":2446.569,"body":"for formatting, whatever, and it's"},{"startTime":2443.059,"endTime":2446.569,"body":"like just bad at tabular, whatever."},{"startTime":2446.569,"endTime":2449.029,"body":"Like you add the tabs to"},{"startTime":2446.569,"endTime":2449.029,"body":"your Word document, you can"},{"startTime":2449.029,"endTime":2450.559,"body":"never get the columns right."},{"startTime":2450.564,"endTime":2452.959,"body":"You, you know, it's difficult to"},{"startTime":2450.564,"endTime":2452.959,"body":"select the entire column cause"},{"startTime":2452.959,"endTime":2455.629,"body":"it, it, it messes up and selects"},{"startTime":2452.959,"endTime":2455.629,"body":"the entire thing and it's time."},{"startTime":2455.749,"endTime":2456.259,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2456.259,"endTime":2457.849,"body":"I've used Excel and Word in my life,"},{"startTime":2457.964,"endTime":2461.054,"body":", or do you want to"},{"startTime":2457.964,"endTime":2461.054,"body":"optimize for one audience?"},{"startTime":2461.244,"endTime":2464.934,"body":"And, and maybe you can do two or"},{"startTime":2461.244,"endTime":2464.934,"body":"three things, but there were a"},{"startTime":2464.934,"endTime":2470.004,"body":"bunch of applications over the"},{"startTime":2464.934,"endTime":2470.004,"body":"past that kind of partially did"},{"startTime":2470.004,"endTime":2472.224,"body":"both, and they're all gone Now."},{"startTime":2472.254,"endTime":2475.074,"body":"They're in the product"},{"startTime":2472.254,"endTime":2475.074,"body":"graveyard resting permanently."},{"startTime":2475.104,"endTime":2475.614,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2475.764,"endTime":2476.004,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2476.004,"endTime":2477.804,"body":"That's the quickest way"},{"startTime":2476.004,"endTime":2477.804,"body":"to obscurity, right?"},{"startTime":2477.804,"endTime":2481.974,"body":"Because to your point, your competitors"},{"startTime":2477.804,"endTime":2481.974,"body":"will definitely eat your lunch"},{"startTime":2482.024,"endTime":2485.324,"body":"because you're not doing anything,"},{"startTime":2482.024,"endTime":2485.324,"body":"you're not excelling at anything."},{"startTime":2485.324,"endTime":2488.954,"body":"You're kind of doing okay on this"},{"startTime":2485.324,"endTime":2488.954,"body":"and not so good on this, right?"},{"startTime":2488.954,"endTime":2489.114,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2489.297,"endTime":2492.27,"body":"And, and that, that brings"},{"startTime":2489.297,"endTime":2492.27,"body":"us back to where you started,"},{"startTime":2492.27,"endTime":2493.5,"body":"which is know your audience."},{"startTime":2493.55,"endTime":2497.39,"body":"Brings us back to what I call user"},{"startTime":2493.55,"endTime":2497.39,"body":"segmentation, which is who are the"},{"startTime":2497.39,"endTime":2499.06,"body":"users that wanna write Word documents?"},{"startTime":2500.225,"endTime":2506.025,"body":"who are the users that need their data"},{"startTime":2500.225,"endTime":2506.025,"body":"shown in a tabular format in, in, in"},{"startTime":2506.075,"endTime":2508.46,"body":"tables and  and are those users the same?"},{"startTime":2508.49,"endTime":2509.27,"body":"Oh, no, they're not."},{"startTime":2510.5,"endTime":2513.56,"body":"Oh, these people over here that"},{"startTime":2510.5,"endTime":2513.56,"body":"need tables, they're mainly fi"},{"startTime":2513.62,"endTime":2517.815,"body":"finance people, accountants data"},{"startTime":2513.62,"endTime":2517.815,"body":"scientists data analysts, whatever."},{"startTime":2517.845,"endTime":2522.915,"body":"And the people over here need word"},{"startTime":2517.845,"endTime":2522.915,"body":"documents are people that write books and"},{"startTime":2522.915,"endTime":2524.505,"body":"technical documents and whatever else."},{"startTime":2524.745,"endTime":2526.035,"body":"They're completely different."},{"startTime":2526.645,"endTime":2526.945,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2526.945,"endTime":2531.775,"body":"Well, if they're completely"},{"startTime":2526.945,"endTime":2531.775,"body":"different, why do we even try to."},{"startTime":2532.72,"endTime":2534.49,"body":"Create the same application"},{"startTime":2532.72,"endTime":2534.49,"body":"for both of them."},{"startTime":2534.64,"endTime":2537.73,"body":"Let's just make it easy on our"},{"startTime":2534.64,"endTime":2537.73,"body":"development teams and just split"},{"startTime":2537.73,"endTime":2541.3,"body":"our development team and say, okay,"},{"startTime":2537.73,"endTime":2541.3,"body":"you developers go over here and make"},{"startTime":2541.3,"endTime":2543.91,"body":"yourselves experts in this type of user."},{"startTime":2544.0,"endTime":2547.42,"body":"And, you few members of the development"},{"startTime":2544.0,"endTime":2547.42,"body":"team move over here and split off"},{"startTime":2547.42,"endTime":2548.74,"body":"and you make yourself extras on this."},{"startTime":2548.74,"endTime":2553.42,"body":"So, so what we end up with is we end"},{"startTime":2548.74,"endTime":2553.42,"body":"up with a development team dividing"},{"startTime":2553.96,"endTime":2560.06,"body":"and team A becomes expert at people"},{"startTime":2553.96,"endTime":2560.06,"body":"trying to write full length documents."},{"startTime":2560.09,"endTime":2565.34,"body":"And Team B becomes experts at people"},{"startTime":2560.09,"endTime":2565.34,"body":"trying to work inside of tabular data."},{"startTime":2565.85,"endTime":2566.3,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2566.3,"endTime":2571.43,"body":"So the before, the two people who are"},{"startTime":2566.3,"endTime":2571.43,"body":"about to type in kind of nasty things."},{"startTime":2571.49,"endTime":2573.41,"body":"Oh, I thought you could say the"},{"startTime":2571.49,"endTime":2573.41,"body":"two people watching the video."},{"startTime":2573.47,"endTime":2573.821,"body":"No, no."},{"startTime":2573.826,"endTime":2574.64,"body":"There's at least eight."},{"startTime":2574.85,"endTime":2577.36,"body":"Um,  no, before those two chime in."},{"startTime":2577.36,"endTime":2581.17,"body":"Let me just say what is, what you're not"},{"startTime":2577.36,"endTime":2581.17,"body":"proposing is you're, you're developing"},{"startTime":2581.175,"endTime":2582.97,"body":"two distinctly different products."},{"startTime":2582.97,"endTime":2583.96,"body":"You're, you're developing."},{"startTime":2584.425,"endTime":2588.265,"body":"Two products each aimed"},{"startTime":2584.425,"endTime":2588.265,"body":"at a specific purpose."},{"startTime":2588.325,"endTime":2591.985,"body":"However certain modules"},{"startTime":2588.325,"endTime":2591.985,"body":"are shared, like printing."},{"startTime":2591.985,"endTime":2592.195,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2592.275,"endTime":2593.145,"body":"spell check, whatever."},{"startTime":2593.15,"endTime":2594.02,"body":"Those kinds of things."},{"startTime":2594.05,"endTime":2596.18,"body":"Um, save as PDF is another example."},{"startTime":2597.05,"endTime":2599.69,"body":"I'm, I'm, wait, let me"},{"startTime":2597.05,"endTime":2599.69,"body":"stop you cuz I'm not clear."},{"startTime":2599.75,"endTime":2605.3,"body":"Uh, you're saying I am proposing"},{"startTime":2599.75,"endTime":2605.3,"body":"No, I'm saying you're not."},{"startTime":2605.31,"endTime":2609.86,"body":"I I, I am proposing different"},{"startTime":2605.31,"endTime":2609.86,"body":"applications, but I think what you"},{"startTime":2609.86,"endTime":2615.335,"body":"just said is, There will be shared"},{"startTime":2609.86,"endTime":2615.335,"body":"functions between both applications."},{"startTime":2615.755,"endTime":2619.325,"body":"Now I'm saying both the applications, but"},{"startTime":2615.755,"endTime":2619.325,"body":"I really, what I really mean back in the"},{"startTime":2619.325,"endTime":2624.395,"body":"spirit of this bullet point was in our"},{"startTime":2619.325,"endTime":2624.395,"body":"suite of products, we're saying everything"},{"startTime":2624.395,"endTime":2629.885,"body":"in our suite of products should have these"},{"startTime":2624.395,"endTime":2629.885,"body":"text functions, these print functions,"},{"startTime":2629.885,"endTime":2633.995,"body":"these whatever functions, everything in"},{"startTime":2629.885,"endTime":2633.995,"body":"our, our whole suite of applications."},{"startTime":2634.445,"endTime":2638.525,"body":"But the, each suite of applications"},{"startTime":2634.445,"endTime":2638.525,"body":"is for a specific user,"},{"startTime":2638.885,"endTime":2639.395,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":2639.485,"endTime":2639.785,"body":"Exa."},{"startTime":2639.79,"endTime":2640.235,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2640.235,"endTime":2640.445,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2640.505,"endTime":2646.175,"body":"So these common functions,"},{"startTime":2640.505,"endTime":2646.175,"body":"they are enablers that allow"},{"startTime":2646.175,"endTime":2647.915,"body":"you to put these different."},{"startTime":2648.5,"endTime":2650.18,"body":"Products and call it a suite."},{"startTime":2650.21,"endTime":2650.3,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2650.54,"endTime":2654.74,"body":", because people can easily use"},{"startTime":2650.54,"endTime":2654.74,"body":"one having used another one."},{"startTime":2654.74,"endTime":2655.01,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2655.01,"endTime":2655.1,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2655.13,"endTime":2655.58,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2655.82,"endTime":2659.48,"body":"So their, you know, barrier to entry"},{"startTime":2655.82,"endTime":2659.48,"body":"is much, much, much, much lower"},{"startTime":2659.54,"endTime":2660.975,"body":"their learning curve, all of that."},{"startTime":2661.245,"endTime":2663.315,"body":"That's how you end up with"},{"startTime":2661.245,"endTime":2663.315,"body":"a suite that sells well."},{"startTime":2663.315,"endTime":2667.185,"body":"So those people that are writing"},{"startTime":2663.315,"endTime":2667.185,"body":"lots of pros and the authors Right."},{"startTime":2667.185,"endTime":2668.565,"body":"Using the word application."},{"startTime":2668.595,"endTime":2668.775,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2668.875,"endTime":2673.485,"body":"Should they need to do some"},{"startTime":2668.875,"endTime":2673.485,"body":"occasional spreadsheet type work?"},{"startTime":2673.785,"endTime":2674.085,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2674.085,"endTime":2677.505,"body":"They, you know, they can, they can"},{"startTime":2674.085,"endTime":2677.505,"body":"buy that other module called Excel"},{"startTime":2677.505,"endTime":2682.035,"body":"and they'll be familiar with basic"},{"startTime":2677.505,"endTime":2682.035,"body":"functions, how to open a document, you"},{"startTime":2682.035,"endTime":2683.835,"body":"know, how to print things like that."},{"startTime":2683.985,"endTime":2684.975,"body":"How to save, yeah."},{"startTime":2685.03,"endTime":2687.16,"body":", yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me."},{"startTime":2687.5,"endTime":2689.94,"body":"The last thing we have was, estimates"},{"startTime":2687.5,"endTime":2689.94,"body":"and burn down in hours, but we can,"},{"startTime":2690.05,"endTime":2691.305,"body":"we can turn into a separate podcast."},{"startTime":2691.435,"endTime":2693.415,"body":"Agile podcast questions at Gmail."},{"startTime":2693.565,"endTime":2696.567,"body":"We have we have not said"},{"startTime":2693.565,"endTime":2696.567,"body":"that in a long time."},{"startTime":2696.567,"endTime":2697.917,"body":"We have not, oh boy."},{"startTime":2698.397,"endTime":2699.397,"body":"Beyond estimation."},{"startTime":2699.417,"endTime":2703.107,"body":"If  , you live in the area, Tampa Bay"},{"startTime":2699.417,"endTime":2703.107,"body":"area, let us know if you'd like to come"},{"startTime":2703.107,"endTime":2705.847,"body":"on the show and argue agile with us."},{"startTime":2705.937,"endTime":2710.097,"body":"And we sincerely hope you enjoyed"},{"startTime":2705.937,"endTime":2710.097,"body":"this episode of agile potpourri"}]}