{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.045,"endTime":3.236,"body":"It's the Arguing Agile podcast"},{"startTime":0.045,"endTime":3.236,"body":"on the arguing Agile channel."},{"startTime":4.198,"endTime":8.167,"body":"Introductions aside, I wanted"},{"startTime":4.198,"endTime":8.167,"body":"to talk about anti patterns in"},{"startTime":8.172,"endTime":11.613,"body":"dealing with the product backlog"},{"startTime":8.172,"endTime":11.613,"body":"and in the way you do refinements."},{"startTime":11.704,"endTime":14.664,"body":"We're gonna look at a, a, a list and"},{"startTime":11.704,"endTime":14.664,"body":"see if we agree or disagree with them."},{"startTime":15.058,"endTime":15.74,"body":"Sounds good."},{"startTime":15.912,"endTime":16.812,"body":"And then here we go."},{"startTime":16.894,"endTime":18.831,"body":"Product backlog and"},{"startTime":16.894,"endTime":18.831,"body":"refinement, anti pattern."},{"startTime":19.077,"endTime":22.86,"body":"One, I, I don't know if that was like,"},{"startTime":19.077,"endTime":22.86,"body":"because somebody saved it twice over"},{"startTime":22.86,"endTime":27.088,"body":"the same file and it got . I'm hoping"},{"startTime":22.86,"endTime":27.088,"body":"that's, this is part one of several."},{"startTime":27.115,"endTime":27.497,"body":"It might be."},{"startTime":27.497,"endTime":27.66,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":27.66,"endTime":28.015,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":28.178,"endTime":30.006,"body":"Anyway, let's go to"},{"startTime":28.178,"endTime":30.006,"body":"the first bullet point."},{"startTime":30.278,"endTime":32.406,"body":"Prioritization by proxy."},{"startTime":32.651,"endTime":36.497,"body":"A single stakeholder or a committee of"},{"startTime":32.651,"endTime":36.497,"body":"stakeholders prioritizes the backlog."},{"startTime":38.133,"endTime":39.988,"body":"This is supposed to be"},{"startTime":38.133,"endTime":39.988,"body":"an anti-pain, right?"},{"startTime":39.988,"endTime":42.606,"body":"Antipater Single"},{"startTime":39.988,"endTime":42.606,"body":"stakeholder or a committee."},{"startTime":42.606,"endTime":47.324,"body":"Yeah, well look a committee, definitely,"},{"startTime":42.606,"endTime":47.324,"body":"because a, committee of stakeholders,"},{"startTime":47.338,"endTime":51.347,"body":"Prioritizing the backlog might be a"},{"startTime":47.338,"endTime":51.347,"body":"recipe for disaster because you've got"},{"startTime":51.347,"endTime":55.083,"body":"people with their own vested interests"},{"startTime":51.347,"endTime":55.083,"body":"in what they want out of the product."},{"startTime":55.338,"endTime":58.01,"body":"They're gonna be prioritizing"},{"startTime":55.338,"endTime":58.01,"body":"the backlog from their own lens."},{"startTime":58.015,"endTime":58.256,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":58.528,"endTime":64.01,"body":"Which, which is not gonna be a singular"},{"startTime":58.528,"endTime":64.01,"body":"representation of the backlog to the team."},{"startTime":64.038,"endTime":64.201,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":64.392,"endTime":65.347,"body":"So that might be an issue."},{"startTime":65.619,"endTime":68.315,"body":"A single person, I don't necessarily"},{"startTime":65.619,"endTime":68.315,"body":"have a problem with that."},{"startTime":68.315,"endTime":68.833,"body":"Honestly."},{"startTime":69.106,"endTime":72.651,"body":"Uh, you know, I, I think as long"},{"startTime":69.106,"endTime":72.651,"body":"as that person is the right person"},{"startTime":72.651,"endTime":75.542,"body":"who understands the product and"},{"startTime":72.651,"endTime":75.542,"body":"what needs to be delivered and why?"},{"startTime":75.588,"endTime":78.097,"body":"Everyone listening to this is"},{"startTime":75.588,"endTime":78.097,"body":"like, oh, a committee doing"},{"startTime":78.101,"endTime":79.569,"body":"prioritization, that sounds terrible."},{"startTime":79.76,"endTime":81.615,"body":"Okay, well let's, let's"},{"startTime":79.76,"endTime":81.615,"body":"delete that out of."},{"startTime":82.206,"endTime":85.042,"body":"Just for the purpose of"},{"startTime":82.206,"endTime":85.042,"body":"furthering discussion, let's"},{"startTime":85.042,"endTime":89.051,"body":"just say a single stakeholder"},{"startTime":85.042,"endTime":89.051,"body":"prioritizes the product backlog."},{"startTime":89.46,"endTime":93.142,"body":"single stakeholder, meaning someone"},{"startTime":89.46,"endTime":93.142,"body":"who is not the product owner slash"},{"startTime":93.306,"endTime":95.024,"body":"product manager, that's a problem."},{"startTime":95.106,"endTime":95.488,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":95.492,"endTime":97.669,"body":"If that's what it means"},{"startTime":95.492,"endTime":97.669,"body":"there, then I agree."},{"startTime":97.674,"endTime":100.51,"body":"I had assumed that that would be the"},{"startTime":97.674,"endTime":100.51,"body":"person who, like I said, who understands"},{"startTime":100.51,"endTime":102.01,"body":"the, you know, the what and the why."},{"startTime":102.01,"endTime":103.074,"body":"That would be the product owner."},{"startTime":103.101,"endTime":103.183,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":103.506,"endTime":106.888,"body":"if that is not that person, you've"},{"startTime":103.506,"endTime":106.888,"body":"got the same problem you have with a"},{"startTime":106.888,"endTime":108.797,"body":"committee, only with one person now."},{"startTime":108.96,"endTime":111.692,"body":"Prioritizing backlog from"},{"startTime":108.96,"endTime":111.692,"body":"their perspective and only"},{"startTime":111.692,"endTime":112.565,"body":"from their perspective."},{"startTime":112.569,"endTime":114.988,"body":"I guess it's not a committee"},{"startTime":112.569,"endTime":114.988,"body":"cuz it's one person's job."},{"startTime":114.988,"endTime":116.297,"body":"It's a product owner's job."},{"startTime":116.433,"endTime":120.224,"body":"Like if we're going to go with the"},{"startTime":116.433,"endTime":120.224,"body":"scrum guide and scrum roles, right."},{"startTime":120.306,"endTime":120.906,"body":"Product manager."},{"startTime":120.906,"endTime":123.524,"body":"Just so I don't have to keep you"},{"startTime":120.906,"endTime":123.524,"body":"saying like, product owner, product"},{"startTime":123.524,"endTime":124.888,"body":"manager, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":125.924,"endTime":128.96,"body":"If the product owner is the person"},{"startTime":125.924,"endTime":128.96,"body":"who is empowered with, prioritization"},{"startTime":128.96,"endTime":133.385,"body":"over the backlog, the committee of"},{"startTime":128.96,"endTime":133.385,"body":"stakeholders, other single stakeholders"},{"startTime":133.385,"endTime":137.258,"body":"who have a big say in the matter"},{"startTime":133.385,"endTime":137.258,"body":"or whatever, isn't your job at that"},{"startTime":137.258,"endTime":139.494,"body":"point managing all these stakeholders?"},{"startTime":139.621,"endTime":143.712,"body":"Let's pretend for a second that the,"},{"startTime":139.621,"endTime":143.712,"body":"the what the bullet point of a single"},{"startTime":143.712,"endTime":146.467,"body":"stakeholder or committee of stakeholders"},{"startTime":143.712,"endTime":146.467,"body":"prioritizes the product backlog."},{"startTime":146.658,"endTime":149.794,"body":"Let's pretend for a second that the"},{"startTime":146.658,"endTime":149.794,"body":"intention of that bullet point means."},{"startTime":150.171,"endTime":155.526,"body":"M in my organization I normally have,"},{"startTime":150.171,"endTime":155.526,"body":"some very powerful political entities"},{"startTime":155.58,"endTime":159.944,"body":"or one individual who can kind of"},{"startTime":155.58,"endTime":159.944,"body":"undermine what I'm doing with, with"},{"startTime":159.944,"endTime":165.098,"body":"respect to the direction vision of"},{"startTime":159.944,"endTime":165.098,"body":"the product, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":165.262,"endTime":166.817,"body":"Which I translate directly in a backlog."},{"startTime":167.971,"endTime":171.571,"body":"Here's the great argument for someone"},{"startTime":167.971,"endTime":171.571,"body":"might, maybe working and maybe"},{"startTime":171.571,"endTime":173.289,"body":"stuck behind an issue like this."},{"startTime":173.462,"endTime":176.271,"body":"If you're in a small company, maybe you're"},{"startTime":173.462,"endTime":176.271,"body":"the first person they hired to be the"},{"startTime":176.271,"endTime":178.308,"body":"product manager and that single stake."},{"startTime":178.917,"endTime":181.944,"body":"Is the ceo, right?"},{"startTime":182.026,"endTime":185.38,"body":"Especially in that phase where you're"},{"startTime":182.026,"endTime":185.38,"body":"trying to separate from the ceo, all"},{"startTime":185.38,"endTime":189.335,"body":"of the main product prioritization"},{"startTime":185.38,"endTime":189.335,"body":"kind of decisions because they've"},{"startTime":189.335,"endTime":192.553,"body":"just hired you as a product manager"},{"startTime":189.335,"endTime":192.553,"body":"for the first time, for example."},{"startTime":193.217,"endTime":196.489,"body":"What that single stakeholder"},{"startTime":193.217,"endTime":196.489,"body":"says is really important and"},{"startTime":196.489,"endTime":197.88,"body":"you do need to serve them."},{"startTime":198.098,"endTime":204.617,"body":"So, uh, like on is that so bad that, you"},{"startTime":198.098,"endTime":204.617,"body":"know, you have one single person who maybe"},{"startTime":204.621,"endTime":207.698,"body":"they don't demand stuff all the time,"},{"startTime":204.621,"endTime":207.698,"body":"but like when they do come calling, you"},{"startTime":207.698,"endTime":210.235,"body":"know, you kind of politically inside."},{"startTime":210.758,"endTime":213.403,"body":"You know, inside baseball kind"},{"startTime":210.758,"endTime":213.403,"body":"of knowing, you know, that you"},{"startTime":213.403,"endTime":215.939,"body":"just kind of have to have to do"},{"startTime":213.403,"endTime":215.939,"body":"whatever they say and then move on."},{"startTime":216.785,"endTime":216.976,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":216.976,"endTime":218.612,"body":"I think you, you make a, a point there."},{"startTime":218.612,"endTime":220.358,"body":"So in that scenario, absolutely right."},{"startTime":220.358,"endTime":222.453,"body":"You, you're gonna be"},{"startTime":220.358,"endTime":222.453,"body":"subservient to that person."},{"startTime":222.523,"endTime":225.632,"body":"hopefully, maybe they're, they're"},{"startTime":222.523,"endTime":225.632,"body":"not the ones that are in the"},{"startTime":225.636,"endTime":226.977,"body":"backlog with their sleeve rolled up."},{"startTime":227.077,"endTime":230.705,"body":"You are working with them, which"},{"startTime":227.077,"endTime":230.705,"body":"means you as in the product owner,"},{"startTime":230.705,"endTime":234.114,"body":"product person, you would have"},{"startTime":230.705,"endTime":234.114,"body":"visibility into what else is in there."},{"startTime":234.141,"endTime":234.332,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":234.386,"endTime":235.423,"body":"What are the dependencies?"},{"startTime":235.423,"endTime":237.495,"body":"They may not care, they may"},{"startTime":235.423,"endTime":237.495,"body":"not even be aware of them."},{"startTime":237.495,"endTime":238.014,"body":"That they may just, that's true."},{"startTime":238.141,"endTime":240.686,"body":"Should come in and say, I need"},{"startTime":238.141,"endTime":240.686,"body":"this, I need this, I need this."},{"startTime":240.686,"endTime":240.905,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":241.205,"endTime":243.823,"body":"So you'd be able to advise them"},{"startTime":241.205,"endTime":243.823,"body":"and say, in order to do that,"},{"startTime":243.877,"endTime":245.105,"body":"we have to do this here first."},{"startTime":245.295,"endTime":247.368,"body":"I mean, we can do that in the"},{"startTime":245.295,"endTime":247.368,"body":"next sprint or the sprint after."},{"startTime":247.532,"endTime":251.705,"body":"So you can moderate the discussion and"},{"startTime":247.532,"endTime":251.705,"body":"kind of, you can still manage the backlog."},{"startTime":251.759,"endTime":251.768,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":252.086,"endTime":254.377,"body":"You're gonna be driven by"},{"startTime":252.086,"endTime":254.377,"body":"their requirements for sure."},{"startTime":254.432,"endTime":254.541,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":254.732,"endTime":257.65,"body":"Um, in that scenario where, you"},{"startTime":254.732,"endTime":257.65,"body":"know, they are the, the person."},{"startTime":258.191,"endTime":260.891,"body":"basically funding, funding"},{"startTime":258.191,"endTime":260.891,"body":"the teams effectively."},{"startTime":260.891,"endTime":262.145,"body":"They're the, they're the sponsor."},{"startTime":262.191,"endTime":263.418,"body":"The primary stakeholder, fine."},{"startTime":264.223,"endTime":267.868,"body":". I think still at the end of the day,"},{"startTime":264.223,"endTime":267.868,"body":"prioritizing the backlog is upon, is is"},{"startTime":267.959,"endTime":273.114,"body":"incumbent upon the person who understands"},{"startTime":267.959,"endTime":273.114,"body":"the periphery of what is going on."},{"startTime":273.114,"endTime":273.168,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":273.173,"endTime":274.995,"body":"Not just that one item or Yeah."},{"startTime":275.159,"endTime":276.605,"body":"Those specific items."},{"startTime":276.854,"endTime":280.709,"body":"When you were dealing with stakeholder"},{"startTime":276.854,"endTime":280.709,"body":"communication, by proxy means you're"},{"startTime":280.709,"endTime":284.509,"body":"basically stepping outta the way and let"},{"startTime":280.709,"endTime":284.509,"body":"somebody else do the job and like you're"},{"startTime":284.514,"endTime":287.127,"body":"not, you know, checking in and you're."},{"startTime":287.568,"endTime":290.432,"body":"Kind of, carrying along other"},{"startTime":287.568,"endTime":290.432,"body":"people's wishes or whatever."},{"startTime":290.486,"endTime":291.932,"body":"You're kind of like"},{"startTime":290.486,"endTime":291.932,"body":"stepping outta the way."},{"startTime":291.932,"endTime":292.477,"body":"I don't, I don't know."},{"startTime":292.668,"endTime":296.86,"body":"If the product person is not like it,"},{"startTime":292.668,"endTime":296.86,"body":"it is kind of, surrendering the role."},{"startTime":297.499,"endTime":297.717,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":297.717,"endTime":299.19,"body":"Kind of like the relinquishing the role."},{"startTime":299.299,"endTime":299.59,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":299.59,"endTime":299.772,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":299.776,"endTime":299.899,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":299.899,"endTime":302.435,"body":"Like, okay, you know,"},{"startTime":299.899,"endTime":302.435,"body":"fine, you do it right."},{"startTime":302.44,"endTime":302.535,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":302.545,"endTime":302.926,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":302.972,"endTime":304.726,"body":"The, the proxy part is what"},{"startTime":302.972,"endTime":304.726,"body":"you're getting at, I think."},{"startTime":304.726,"endTime":304.89,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":305.272,"endTime":305.49,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":305.49,"endTime":308.49,"body":"Because the person that you"},{"startTime":305.49,"endTime":308.49,"body":"are, you are deferring that."},{"startTime":308.763,"endTime":314.026,"body":"Responsibility too, may not be a product"},{"startTime":308.763,"endTime":314.026,"body":"oriented person in the sense that they"},{"startTime":314.026,"endTime":319.072,"body":"may not realize all the dependencies, et"},{"startTime":314.026,"endTime":319.072,"body":"cetera, let alone things like a roadmap."},{"startTime":319.076,"endTime":320.217,"body":"And you're working toward a roadmap."},{"startTime":320.563,"endTime":322.617,"body":"Somebody comes in and says,"},{"startTime":320.563,"endTime":322.617,"body":"okay, now we're gonna do this."},{"startTime":322.617,"endTime":324.172,"body":"And you just step out of"},{"startTime":322.617,"endTime":324.172,"body":"the way and say, fine."},{"startTime":324.172,"endTime":324.635,"body":"Go with it."},{"startTime":324.799,"endTime":324.99,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":325.099,"endTime":325.808,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":325.813,"endTime":325.872,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":325.999,"endTime":326.926,"body":"To your overall plan."},{"startTime":326.926,"endTime":327.326,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":327.331,"endTime":327.963,"body":"Overall roadmap."},{"startTime":328.372,"endTime":328.645,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":328.645,"endTime":332.954,"body":"And this is the reason that I, uh,"},{"startTime":328.645,"endTime":332.954,"body":"kind of, uh, advise people to have in"},{"startTime":332.954,"endTime":337.504,"body":"their, in their corporate level, uh,"},{"startTime":332.954,"endTime":337.504,"body":"kanban board, telling them what they're"},{"startTime":337.504,"endTime":339.74,"body":"chewing through in their roadmap and"},{"startTime":337.504,"endTime":339.74,"body":"kind of what they're involved in."},{"startTime":339.985,"endTime":343.585,"body":"I, I want that Expeditor lane to be"},{"startTime":339.985,"endTime":343.585,"body":"shown to the executive so that when"},{"startTime":343.804,"endTime":346.94,"body":"something like this comes up and is,"},{"startTime":343.804,"endTime":346.94,"body":", burning on the house and interrupting"},{"startTime":346.94,"endTime":348.985,"body":"the backlog, I want it to be visible."},{"startTime":348.99,"endTime":349.258,"body":"Anyway,"},{"startTime":349.304,"endTime":351.431,"body":"All right, let's cut to the"},{"startTime":349.304,"endTime":351.431,"body":"next one, which is number two,"},{"startTime":351.595,"endTime":354.076,"body":"the oversized product backlog."},{"startTime":354.376,"endTime":358.004,"body":"Now the quote here is the product backlog"},{"startTime":354.376,"endTime":358.004,"body":"contains more items than the scrum team"},{"startTime":358.008,"endTime":361.222,"body":"can deliver within three to six sprints."},{"startTime":361.452,"endTime":362.134,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":362.243,"endTime":362.461,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":362.57,"endTime":365.298,"body":"Three to six sprints is"},{"startTime":362.57,"endTime":365.298,"body":"what, 12 weeks at best."},{"startTime":365.761,"endTime":368.925,"body":"Um, so 12 weeks is, that's a quarter, man."},{"startTime":369.334,"endTime":370.561,"body":"I was just gonna say, it's a quarter."},{"startTime":370.698,"endTime":372.307,"body":"You've got details in your backlog."},{"startTime":372.829,"endTime":376.948,"body":"that are beyond a quarter,"},{"startTime":372.829,"endTime":376.948,"body":"that backlog is too deep."},{"startTime":377.029,"endTime":377.711,"body":"Most definitely."},{"startTime":377.793,"endTime":378.066,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":378.066,"endTime":380.629,"body":"Beyond a quarter, it's like, it's"},{"startTime":378.066,"endTime":380.629,"body":"like putting vegetables in the"},{"startTime":380.684,"endTime":384.038,"body":"drawer in your fridge and then coming"},{"startTime":380.684,"endTime":384.038,"body":"to those three months from now."},{"startTime":384.038,"endTime":384.093,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":384.393,"endTime":385.702,"body":"They're not gonna be fresh."},{"startTime":385.707,"endTime":386.102,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":386.548,"endTime":387.393,"body":"So throw 'em out."},{"startTime":387.448,"endTime":388.102,"body":"Don't have 'em there."},{"startTime":388.129,"endTime":388.393,"body":"I."},{"startTime":388.448,"endTime":391.938,"body":"if I were to write this item as a"},{"startTime":388.448,"endTime":391.938,"body":"list and try to sell people on using"},{"startTime":391.938,"endTime":395.757,"body":"it, I would, I'd just say six sprints"},{"startTime":391.938,"endTime":395.757,"body":"and I'd be done, I'd be out at six."},{"startTime":395.761,"endTime":398.429,"body":"I'd be like, Hey, if you can't get"},{"startTime":395.761,"endTime":398.429,"body":"it done in six sprints, like I don't"},{"startTime":398.429,"endTime":400.038,"body":"really want it in the product backlog."},{"startTime":400.257,"endTime":403.093,"body":"But then, but then when he says oversized"},{"startTime":400.257,"endTime":403.093,"body":"product back, look like I don't,"},{"startTime":403.093,"endTime":406.993,"body":"I don't know if he's, um, contains"},{"startTime":403.093,"endTime":406.993,"body":"more items than the scrum team can"},{"startTime":407.02,"endTime":408.466,"body":"deliver within three to six sprints."},{"startTime":408.466,"endTime":410.266,"body":"So just pretend for a second, he."},{"startTime":410.848,"endTime":413.002,"body":"more items than this team can"},{"startTime":410.848,"endTime":413.002,"body":"deliver within six sprints."},{"startTime":413.193,"endTime":416.711,"body":"Like there's a lot of, there's a"},{"startTime":413.193,"endTime":416.711,"body":"lot of stuff that's up in the air."},{"startTime":416.738,"endTime":421.266,"body":"Just when you say that, meaning, are"},{"startTime":416.738,"endTime":421.266,"body":"you talking about all like the potential"},{"startTime":421.266,"endTime":425.22,"body":"things or are these all refined by the"},{"startTime":421.266,"endTime":425.22,"body":"team or are these, you know, how high"},{"startTime":425.22,"endTime":426.311,"body":"level are these goals or whatever?"},{"startTime":426.429,"endTime":430.129,"body":"The tough part of even going through this"},{"startTime":426.429,"endTime":430.129,"body":"category at all for me is, as a product"},{"startTime":430.129,"endTime":435.529,"body":"manager, I will put some stuff in the"},{"startTime":430.129,"endTime":435.529,"body":"backlog that'll just, I know is so large."},{"startTime":435.966,"endTime":438.752,"body":"It's basically an epic"},{"startTime":435.966,"endTime":438.752,"body":"masquerading as a story."},{"startTime":439.598,"endTime":440.716,"body":"But I don't really care right now."},{"startTime":440.716,"endTime":445.134,"body":"Cause I know we're months from even"},{"startTime":440.716,"endTime":445.134,"body":"looking at it in refinements months."},{"startTime":445.161,"endTime":445.488,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":445.57,"endTime":446.17,"body":"That, that's a,"},{"startTime":446.325,"endTime":449.579,"body":"so one of the things that I like"},{"startTime":446.325,"endTime":449.579,"body":"to, , encourage teams to do, , the"},{"startTime":449.584,"endTime":451.943,"body":"product folks, , is that's okay."},{"startTime":451.998,"endTime":453.17,"body":"You don't have enough detail."},{"startTime":453.17,"endTime":454.643,"body":"It's, it's way out there."},{"startTime":454.648,"endTime":455.188,"body":"It's big."},{"startTime":455.193,"endTime":456.252,"body":"We'll get to it when we get to it."},{"startTime":456.279,"endTime":457.043,"body":"I'm fine with all that."},{"startTime":457.566,"endTime":461.848,"body":"Then what I do is I ask them to"},{"startTime":457.566,"endTime":461.848,"body":"put in a space holder work item."},{"startTime":461.929,"endTime":462.066,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":462.393,"endTime":465.748,"body":"Nothing more than just a whole bunch of"},{"startTime":462.393,"endTime":465.748,"body":"equal signs that go across the screen."},{"startTime":466.02,"endTime":466.293,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":466.293,"endTime":467.684,"body":"Just to act as a divider."},{"startTime":468.402,"endTime":471.338,"body":"Anything above that is what we"},{"startTime":468.402,"endTime":471.338,"body":"talk about with the teams, which is"},{"startTime":471.343,"endTime":473.248,"body":"less than a quarters worth of work."},{"startTime":473.302,"endTime":474.529,"body":"Uh, the shorter, the better."},{"startTime":474.793,"endTime":477.82,"body":"you should have two or three sprints"},{"startTime":474.793,"endTime":477.82,"body":"worth of, of a backlog in there at least."},{"startTime":478.093,"endTime":478.748,"body":"But yeah."},{"startTime":478.748,"endTime":481.257,"body":"All those big chunks that you"},{"startTime":478.748,"endTime":481.257,"body":"don't wanna lose sight of, fine."},{"startTime":481.257,"endTime":481.72,"body":"Keep 'em there."},{"startTime":481.72,"endTime":481.775,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":481.802,"endTime":483.002,"body":"But we're not gonna talk about 'em."},{"startTime":483.002,"endTime":483.766,"body":"That's the key."},{"startTime":483.766,"endTime":484.066,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":484.075,"endTime":484.366,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":484.366,"endTime":487.257,"body":"We're not gonna talk about 'em until we"},{"startTime":484.366,"endTime":487.257,"body":"get near the time, until those things"},{"startTime":487.257,"endTime":491.811,"body":"get refined, maybe multiple times and"},{"startTime":487.257,"endTime":491.811,"body":"there's more detail and they shuffle"},{"startTime":491.811,"endTime":493.557,"body":"up above the line at some point."},{"startTime":493.557,"endTime":493.775,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":493.966,"endTime":494.266,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":494.266,"endTime":498.684,"body":"But that point is gonna be less than in"},{"startTime":494.266,"endTime":498.684,"body":"this example and in real life, I feel."},{"startTime":498.684,"endTime":498.848,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":498.902,"endTime":499.748,"body":"Less than three months."},{"startTime":499.748,"endTime":501.957,"body":"I mean, it's, it's six"},{"startTime":499.748,"endTime":501.957,"body":"sprints is about the limit."},{"startTime":501.984,"endTime":502.229,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":502.284,"endTime":503.02,"body":"Anything beyond that."},{"startTime":503.225,"endTime":504.507,"body":"Things are liable to change."},{"startTime":504.507,"endTime":505.788,"body":"Priorities change, right?"},{"startTime":505.807,"endTime":506.025,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":506.025,"endTime":508.079,"body":"So yeah, it doesn't mean you"},{"startTime":506.025,"endTime":508.079,"body":"have to not put 'em in the"},{"startTime":508.079,"endTime":508.979,"body":"backlog, is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":509.065,"endTime":511.765,"body":"If you are saying the product"},{"startTime":509.065,"endTime":511.765,"body":"backlog, do you mean stories that"},{"startTime":511.77,"endTime":513.184,"body":"the team could potentially pull in?"},{"startTime":513.402,"endTime":515.147,"body":"Do you mean like epic level?"},{"startTime":515.147,"endTime":515.884,"body":"You mean feature level?"},{"startTime":515.888,"endTime":520.056,"body":"Epic level because like I'll write feature"},{"startTime":515.888,"endTime":520.056,"body":"an epic level and leave those sitting out"},{"startTime":520.056,"endTime":526.029,"body":"in the backlog months before I ever engage"},{"startTime":520.056,"endTime":526.029,"body":"because that's, that's like the potential"},{"startTime":526.029,"endTime":528.538,"body":"branches that my roadmap might go off on."},{"startTime":528.62,"endTime":530.038,"body":"That, that's what that is to me."},{"startTime":530.229,"endTime":534.92,"body":"And as we de de determine not to go on"},{"startTime":530.229,"endTime":534.92,"body":"those branches, I'll clip those branches."},{"startTime":535.302,"endTime":537.156,"body":"and maybe move them later in the road."},{"startTime":537.156,"endTime":538.711,"body":"Or maybe I'll clip 'em"},{"startTime":537.156,"endTime":538.711,"body":"and just throw 'em away."},{"startTime":538.711,"endTime":539.229,"body":"I like"},{"startTime":539.42,"endTime":540.429,"body":"roadmap level."},{"startTime":540.475,"endTime":543.993,"body":"This item where he's talking about"},{"startTime":540.475,"endTime":543.993,"body":"oversized product backlog, I would"},{"startTime":543.997,"endTime":547.756,"body":"clip this in half to say I can't,"},{"startTime":543.997,"endTime":547.756,"body":"I can't consider what he's talking"},{"startTime":547.761,"endTime":552.447,"body":"about unless we talk about team level"},{"startTime":547.761,"endTime":552.447,"body":"versus potential product roadmap."},{"startTime":552.502,"endTime":555.338,"body":"You know, leadership level"},{"startTime":552.502,"endTime":555.338,"body":"cause different discussions."},{"startTime":555.584,"endTime":556.293,"body":"A absolutely."},{"startTime":556.347,"endTime":559.156,"body":"So when he says the product backlog,"},{"startTime":556.347,"endTime":559.156,"body":"like you say, it's not clear."},{"startTime":559.156,"endTime":562.484,"body":"Is it work items, is it epics, is it"},{"startTime":559.156,"endTime":562.484,"body":"large boulders, is it small rocks?"},{"startTime":562.484,"endTime":563.002,"body":"We don't know."},{"startTime":563.02,"endTime":563.129,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":563.134,"endTime":563.247,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":563.302,"endTime":568.402,"body":"But that said, I'm okay to see that in"},{"startTime":563.302,"endTime":568.402,"body":"a singular, two dimensional backlog."},{"startTime":568.475,"endTime":571.965,"body":"As long as there's a demarcation of"},{"startTime":568.475,"endTime":571.965,"body":"what we are really working on versus."},{"startTime":572.579,"endTime":575.361,"body":"that future stuff and that future stuff."},{"startTime":575.361,"endTime":576.615,"body":"Maybe just a one-liner."},{"startTime":576.834,"endTime":576.97,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":576.97,"endTime":577.87,"body":"There's no detail there."},{"startTime":577.875,"endTime":578.043,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":578.043,"endTime":578.225,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":578.23,"endTime":580.406,"body":"And maybe it'll get thrown"},{"startTime":578.23,"endTime":580.406,"body":"away when we get closer to it."},{"startTime":580.406,"endTime":580.652,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":580.652,"endTime":582.152,"body":"So why spend the energy on it now?"},{"startTime":582.343,"endTime":582.479,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":582.534,"endTime":585.487,"body":"So I agree with the three"},{"startTime":582.534,"endTime":585.487,"body":"to six print time box."},{"startTime":585.734,"endTime":589.143,"body":", but there's some ambiguity about what"},{"startTime":585.734,"endTime":589.143,"body":"he means, you know, by product backlog."},{"startTime":589.525,"endTime":589.77,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":589.77,"endTime":593.834,"body":"For me and my own teams, three"},{"startTime":589.77,"endTime":593.834,"body":"sprints is about the cutoff, like"},{"startTime":593.834,"endTime":597.522,"body":"three I I, if my team is three"},{"startTime":593.834,"endTime":597.522,"body":"sprints ahead in backlog, refinement."},{"startTime":597.57,"endTime":600.052,"body":"And the business isn't"},{"startTime":597.57,"endTime":600.052,"body":"really changing priorities."},{"startTime":600.079,"endTime":602.179,"body":"And the feedback we're getting"},{"startTime":600.079,"endTime":602.179,"body":"when we demo the product is"},{"startTime":602.179,"endTime":603.052,"body":"not really changing prior."},{"startTime":603.57,"endTime":609.87,"body":", and we have spaces on our schedule to go"},{"startTime":603.57,"endTime":609.87,"body":"further in product backlog refinement."},{"startTime":610.925,"endTime":614.225,"body":"My personal preference is just to"},{"startTime":610.925,"endTime":614.225,"body":"start removing backlog refinements"},{"startTime":614.229,"endTime":619.406,"body":"until we, we get back to that sweet"},{"startTime":614.229,"endTime":619.406,"body":"spot of two to three sprints ahead."},{"startTime":619.906,"endTime":622.829,"body":"I'll delete the refinements cause I'll"},{"startTime":619.906,"endTime":622.829,"body":"say, Hey, like, we're, we're moving"},{"startTime":622.829,"endTime":624.338,"body":"through work a little slower or whatever."},{"startTime":624.338,"endTime":626.756,"body":"Or maybe we're moving through refinements"},{"startTime":624.338,"endTime":626.756,"body":"a little faster, whatever it is."},{"startTime":627.056,"endTime":631.856,"body":"But I'll, I'll try to, I'll try to give"},{"startTime":627.056,"endTime":631.856,"body":"the team back that time if they were more"},{"startTime":631.856,"endTime":635.634,"body":"efficient in other sessions, because I, I"},{"startTime":631.856,"endTime":635.634,"body":"think in the future, You'll spend longer"},{"startTime":635.634,"endTime":639.588,"body":"in refinement on specific issues and then"},{"startTime":635.634,"endTime":639.588,"body":"shorter in refinement on other issues."},{"startTime":639.588,"endTime":640.897,"body":"And over time it'll all balance out."},{"startTime":640.897,"endTime":644.643,"body":"But, the product person can kind of"},{"startTime":640.897,"endTime":644.643,"body":"align that, oh, are we two sprints ahead?"},{"startTime":644.752,"endTime":645.434,"body":"Three sprints ahead?"},{"startTime":645.434,"endTime":646.061,"body":"Two sprints ahead."},{"startTime":646.061,"endTime":649.606,"body":"And they can keep just moving around"},{"startTime":646.061,"endTime":649.606,"body":"that time to make sure you stay"},{"startTime":649.634,"endTime":651.479,"body":"in that two three sprints window."},{"startTime":651.985,"endTime":653.385,"body":"I, yeah, certainly I concur with that."},{"startTime":653.44,"endTime":657.312,"body":"I also think a point you made"},{"startTime":653.44,"endTime":657.312,"body":"about pruning the backlogs also,"},{"startTime":657.312,"endTime":660.176,"body":"often what I see is people leave"},{"startTime":657.312,"endTime":660.176,"body":"things in their backlog Yeah."},{"startTime":660.285,"endTime":663.231,"body":"And say, you know, we"},{"startTime":660.285,"endTime":663.231,"body":"have this deep backlog."},{"startTime":663.235,"endTime":666.067,"body":"It's, aren't we supposed to"},{"startTime":663.235,"endTime":666.067,"body":"have a uppercase deep backlog?"},{"startTime":666.072,"endTime":666.094,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":666.094,"endTime":666.276,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":666.367,"endTime":667.24,"body":"It's like, no."},{"startTime":667.485,"endTime":670.894,"body":", like I said, all these, all these elements"},{"startTime":667.485,"endTime":670.894,"body":"just sit there and fester and they rot."},{"startTime":671.085,"endTime":671.222,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":671.249,"endTime":674.085,"body":"So, , I am all for pruning"},{"startTime":671.249,"endTime":674.085,"body":"the backlog constantly."},{"startTime":674.09,"endTime":676.24,"body":"If you're not weeding your garden,"},{"startTime":674.09,"endTime":676.24,"body":"and then it's just gonna be unkept."},{"startTime":677.024,"endTime":678.945,"body":"All right, Outdated issues."},{"startTime":678.945,"endTime":681.673,"body":"The product backlog contains"},{"startTime":678.945,"endTime":681.673,"body":"items that haven't been touched"},{"startTime":681.7,"endTime":684.373,"body":"for several weeks or more."},{"startTime":684.534,"endTime":686.579,"body":"I think, I think you're already"},{"startTime":684.534,"endTime":686.579,"body":"like, ready to go for this."},{"startTime":686.579,"endTime":687.689,"body":"Hey, I'm ready to go with this one."},{"startTime":687.689,"endTime":689.461,"body":"This is like the second"},{"startTime":687.689,"endTime":689.461,"body":"half of the first one."},{"startTime":689.652,"endTime":692.161,"body":"If you've got too many items,"},{"startTime":689.652,"endTime":692.161,"body":"then you could have updated"},{"startTime":692.161,"endTime":695.816,"body":"items, but if you didn't, then you"},{"startTime":692.161,"endTime":695.816,"body":"can circumvent this altogether."},{"startTime":696.252,"endTime":700.97,"body":"So, so I think, you know, it's like"},{"startTime":696.252,"endTime":700.97,"body":"one part of it precipitates the other."},{"startTime":700.998,"endTime":702.07,"body":"If you're not careful."},{"startTime":702.2,"endTime":704.709,"body":"Title just simply says, I"},{"startTime":702.2,"endTime":704.709,"body":"outdated issues the product."},{"startTime":704.714,"endTime":709.4,"body":"MacLab contains items that haven't"},{"startTime":704.714,"endTime":709.4,"body":"been touched for several weeks or more."},{"startTime":709.727,"endTime":712.536,"body":"Yeah, I mean, even with the price"},{"startTime":709.727,"endTime":712.536,"body":"of eggs today, you'll leave them"},{"startTime":712.541,"endTime":714.036,"body":"in there for, you know, a quarter."},{"startTime":714.227,"endTime":716.109,"body":"Not a good idea, right?"},{"startTime":716.109,"endTime":717.527,"body":"Just buy what you need, when you need."},{"startTime":717.527,"endTime":720.527,"body":"So yeah, prune, prune your"},{"startTime":717.527,"endTime":720.527,"body":"backlog and keep it small."},{"startTime":720.527,"endTime":720.855,"body":"Keep it."},{"startTime":721.823,"endTime":722.123,"body":", you're good."},{"startTime":722.95,"endTime":724.859,"body":"I got stuff sitting in the backlog"},{"startTime":722.95,"endTime":724.859,"body":"and it's been sitting in there."},{"startTime":724.859,"endTime":726.032,"body":"They're not moving for a quarter."},{"startTime":726.468,"endTime":726.986,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":727.095,"endTime":730.341,"body":"That's, I think it's fair for someone to"},{"startTime":727.095,"endTime":730.341,"body":"say, Brian, you should look at that and"},{"startTime":730.345,"endTime":731.977,"body":"decide if you wanna keep it in or not."},{"startTime":732.205,"endTime":735.886,"body":"Most busy product owners would just say"},{"startTime":732.205,"endTime":735.886,"body":"like, well, I haven't, I haven't looked"},{"startTime":735.886,"endTime":737.905,"body":"at it and nobody's it and nobody's update."},{"startTime":738.914,"endTime":742.977,"body":"and also assuming that nobody's actually"},{"startTime":738.914,"endTime":742.977,"body":"going in, no customer, if you give them"},{"startTime":742.977,"endTime":746.768,"body":"the capability has gone in and added,"},{"startTime":742.977,"endTime":746.768,"body":"Hey, I'm gonna start washing this item,"},{"startTime":746.959,"endTime":749.686,"body":"or giving a thumbs up, thumbs down"},{"startTime":746.959,"endTime":749.686,"body":"if you have that capability in Jira."},{"startTime":749.85,"endTime":753.968,"body":"Basically what I'm calling out is anybody"},{"startTime":749.85,"endTime":753.968,"body":"like the, the Atlassian forums where they,"},{"startTime":753.973,"endTime":757.841,"body":"you vote up or down on whether you want"},{"startTime":753.973,"endTime":757.841,"body":"features implemented and then there's like"},{"startTime":758.005,"endTime":762.668,"body":"features with 12,000 votes or whatever"},{"startTime":758.005,"endTime":762.668,"body":"and, and Atlassian ignores them anyway."},{"startTime":762.668,"endTime":762.886,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":762.886,"endTime":764.168,"body":"They apparently don't care."},{"startTime":764.395,"endTime":769.591,"body":"I would look at assuming that I'm not"},{"startTime":764.395,"endTime":769.591,"body":"working at Atlassian and, I would look"},{"startTime":769.645,"endTime":775.276,"body":"at these every couple weeks and, I would"},{"startTime":769.645,"endTime":775.276,"body":"have a recurring list out of a, out of"},{"startTime":775.28,"endTime":776.967,"body":"where, whatever my ALM tool could be."},{"startTime":776.967,"endTime":780.948,"body":"Jira could be anything, but if it"},{"startTime":776.967,"endTime":780.948,"body":"were Jira, I'd write a query that"},{"startTime":780.948,"endTime":785.567,"body":"says, Hey, if, if this item has not"},{"startTime":780.948,"endTime":785.567,"body":"been updated,  in whatever, 12 weeks,"},{"startTime":785.567,"endTime":786.767,"body":"whatever, whatever number I wanna pick."},{"startTime":786.876,"endTime":787.203,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":787.208,"endTime":790.776,"body":"Days, number of days, , put it on"},{"startTime":787.208,"endTime":790.776,"body":"a report and send it over to me."},{"startTime":790.83,"endTime":794.648,"body":"Cause I might decide like, Hey"},{"startTime":790.83,"endTime":794.648,"body":"listen, we haven't done anything with"},{"startTime":794.653,"endTime":796.039,"body":"this time, time to make a decision."},{"startTime":796.667,"endTime":796.912,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":796.912,"endTime":798.412,"body":"Certainly, certainly concur with that."},{"startTime":798.458,"endTime":801.876,"body":"I think you could, you can see"},{"startTime":798.458,"endTime":801.876,"body":"on the backlog items that are,"},{"startTime":801.924,"endTime":805.797,"body":"there for more than 12 weeks, more"},{"startTime":801.924,"endTime":805.797,"body":"than three, especially for teams"},{"startTime":805.797,"endTime":808.279,"body":"that are part of a, , a SAFe ART."},{"startTime":808.351,"endTime":808.715,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":808.72,"endTime":808.906,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":808.906,"endTime":811.279,"body":"Because you have a PI"},{"startTime":808.906,"endTime":811.279,"body":"that's three months already."},{"startTime":811.442,"endTime":811.551,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":811.556,"endTime":813.951,"body":"And then people say, well, we'll"},{"startTime":811.556,"endTime":813.951,"body":"get to that in the next pi."},{"startTime":813.951,"endTime":817.497,"body":"So you've got items for three"},{"startTime":813.951,"endTime":817.497,"body":"months out already in your backlog."},{"startTime":817.599,"endTime":822.348,"body":"you know, as a product person, you've"},{"startTime":817.599,"endTime":822.348,"body":"gotta be smart and say, okay, we'll keep"},{"startTime":822.348,"endTime":826.794,"body":"some, but at the same time, can we keep"},{"startTime":822.348,"endTime":826.794,"body":"so many that, you know, they're just"},{"startTime":826.794,"endTime":828.403,"body":"gonna age and they're not gonna age well."},{"startTime":829.262,"endTime":829.589,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":829.589,"endTime":831.471,"body":"I thought, I thought, I thought"},{"startTime":829.589,"endTime":831.471,"body":"where you were leaning with, as"},{"startTime":831.471,"endTime":833.98,"body":"a product person, I'm gonna be"},{"startTime":831.471,"endTime":833.98,"body":"like, why, why are we doing safe?"},{"startTime":834.035,"endTime":837.58,"body":"That's kind . I thought that's where you"},{"startTime":834.035,"endTime":837.58,"body":"were going, but I should have gone there."},{"startTime":838.299,"endTime":842.09,"body":"item number four everything"},{"startTime":838.299,"endTime":842.09,"body":"is detailed and estimated."},{"startTime":842.226,"endTime":845.635,"body":"All product backlog items are"},{"startTime":842.226,"endTime":845.635,"body":"entirely detailed and estimated."},{"startTime":845.881,"endTime":846.753,"body":"Oh, geez."},{"startTime":846.772,"endTime":848.608,"body":"I know, I know how"},{"startTime":846.772,"endTime":848.608,"body":"ridiculous this item is."},{"startTime":848.612,"endTime":850.681,"body":"So, I'll put you right up first."},{"startTime":850.735,"endTime":852.317,"body":"It is a crazy item."},{"startTime":852.317,"endTime":855.153,"body":"So everything is entirely"},{"startTime":852.317,"endTime":855.153,"body":"detailed and estimated."},{"startTime":855.453,"endTime":860.253,"body":"This is, this is where the team gets into"},{"startTime":855.453,"endTime":860.253,"body":"refinements religiously every sprint."},{"startTime":860.281,"endTime":864.399,"body":"Even though, even though the backlog is"},{"startTime":860.281,"endTime":864.399,"body":"pretty well refined and estimated for"},{"startTime":864.399,"endTime":865.899,"body":"the next two or three sprints, right?"},{"startTime":865.953,"endTime":868.408,"body":"Because it's in the backlog,"},{"startTime":865.953,"endTime":868.408,"body":"we have to have a meeting and"},{"startTime":868.412,"endTime":869.417,"body":"we're gonna go through it all."},{"startTime":869.881,"endTime":872.608,"body":"if your teams are doing"},{"startTime":869.881,"endTime":872.608,"body":"that, you are falling foul of"},{"startTime":872.608,"endTime":874.19,"body":"this very issue right here."},{"startTime":874.217,"endTime":875.526,"body":"Everything is well."},{"startTime":875.581,"endTime":879.535,"body":"So absolutely things that are near"},{"startTime":875.581,"endTime":879.535,"body":"term need to be right, but things that"},{"startTime":879.54,"endTime":882.844,"body":"are longer term, medium to long term,"},{"startTime":879.54,"endTime":882.844,"body":"they don't need to be as much, , if"},{"startTime":882.844,"endTime":885.79,"body":"they should be on the backlog at"},{"startTime":882.844,"endTime":885.79,"body":"all, if they're truly long term."},{"startTime":885.981,"endTime":887.862,"body":"I've definitely seen this several times."},{"startTime":888.172,"endTime":889.258,"body":", this is typically when."},{"startTime":890.185,"endTime":893.122,"body":"Product owner simply doesn't"},{"startTime":890.185,"endTime":893.122,"body":"understand, , how the backlog"},{"startTime":893.122,"endTime":895.412,"body":"is, is supposed to be, , updated."},{"startTime":895.731,"endTime":899.949,"body":"I will admit, , I don't think I've ever"},{"startTime":895.731,"endTime":899.949,"body":"been in an environment like this, really."},{"startTime":900.304,"endTime":905.831,"body":"I think, I think I was at one place"},{"startTime":900.304,"endTime":905.831,"body":"that, , had this attitude that, , in"},{"startTime":905.831,"endTime":909.295,"body":"order to, if, if you're gonna"},{"startTime":905.831,"endTime":909.295,"body":"have an item in the backlog, it ne"},{"startTime":909.295,"endTime":910.767,"body":"everything needs to be estimated."},{"startTime":910.767,"endTime":912.922,"body":"And, , the things that you"},{"startTime":910.767,"endTime":912.922,"body":"don't want to be estimated, you"},{"startTime":912.922,"endTime":913.931,"body":"keep them out of the backlog."},{"startTime":914.286,"endTime":918.349,"body":"And what that attitude contributed to"},{"startTime":914.286,"endTime":918.349,"body":"was any stakeholder who could contribute"},{"startTime":918.349,"endTime":922.267,"body":"things to the backlog they had, their"},{"startTime":918.349,"endTime":922.267,"body":"own individual lists of all the things"},{"startTime":922.267,"endTime":925.349,"body":"they thought needed to be added to the"},{"startTime":922.267,"endTime":925.349,"body":"backlog in spreadsheets and whatever."},{"startTime":925.567,"endTime":929.349,"body":"So things only ever got added to the"},{"startTime":925.567,"endTime":929.349,"body":"backlog when all the alarms were going"},{"startTime":929.349,"endTime":932.44,"body":"off and all the things were on fire and"},{"startTime":929.349,"endTime":932.44,"body":"all the things, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":932.445,"endTime":935.349,"body":"Like things only got added to the"},{"startTime":932.445,"endTime":935.349,"body":"backlog until the, like, until"},{"startTime":935.349,"endTime":937.886,"body":"they could not wait any longer."},{"startTime":938.213,"endTime":939.195,"body":"They got to that point."},{"startTime":940.013,"endTime":942.367,"body":"So that's the opposite of, , a"},{"startTime":940.013,"endTime":942.367,"body":"backlog being too deep."},{"startTime":942.367,"endTime":942.613,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":942.617,"endTime":942.695,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":942.858,"endTime":944.086,"body":"It was probably not deep enough."},{"startTime":944.086,"endTime":947.14,"body":"Well, that was, that was what happened"},{"startTime":944.086,"endTime":947.14,"body":"when you had this, this category is"},{"startTime":947.14,"endTime":951.095,"body":"everything that is in the backlog has not"},{"startTime":947.14,"endTime":951.095,"body":"only has to be considered, but also has"},{"startTime":951.095,"endTime":952.54,"body":"to be estimated and, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":952.54,"endTime":953.386,"body":"All, all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":953.822,"endTime":958.704,"body":"This item is fairly ridiculous for"},{"startTime":953.822,"endTime":958.704,"body":"any like, working product manager."},{"startTime":958.704,"endTime":960.667,"body":"I'm throwing my ideas"},{"startTime":958.704,"endTime":960.667,"body":"down on paper somewhere."},{"startTime":961.267,"endTime":964.049,"body":"Paper happens to be the backlog and"},{"startTime":961.267,"endTime":964.049,"body":"I'm just throwing them in there."},{"startTime":964.295,"endTime":967.567,"body":"And the fact that they're in there means,"},{"startTime":964.295,"endTime":967.567,"body":"means that they need to be estimated"},{"startTime":967.567,"endTime":969.122,"body":"is kind of silly because I'm, it is"},{"startTime":969.167,"endTime":972.086,"body":"This is why I like to use tools"},{"startTime":969.167,"endTime":972.086,"body":"like planning tools, um, you"},{"startTime":972.09,"endTime":973.476,"body":"know, plan, aha, et cetera."},{"startTime":973.613,"endTime":973.695,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":973.917,"endTime":976.967,"body":", uh, to hold ideas and we source"},{"startTime":973.917,"endTime":976.967,"body":"them directly from customers."},{"startTime":977.022,"endTime":977.186,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":977.786,"endTime":980.431,"body":", anybody could put any idea in,"},{"startTime":977.786,"endTime":980.431,"body":"but that's not guaranteed to be"},{"startTime":980.431,"endTime":982.176,"body":"implemented or look at it on its merit."},{"startTime":982.467,"endTime":984.022,"body":"but it doesn't go in"},{"startTime":982.467,"endTime":984.022,"body":"the backlog immediately."},{"startTime":984.295,"endTime":984.376,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":984.704,"endTime":985.004,"body":". Right."},{"startTime":985.086,"endTime":988.958,"body":"But if you have that situation where"},{"startTime":985.086,"endTime":988.958,"body":"the backlog contains a lot of ideas,"},{"startTime":989.695,"endTime":992.804,"body":"at the very minimum, use a prefix of."},{"startTime":993.431,"endTime":996.776,"body":"I don't know, idea at the beginning"},{"startTime":993.431,"endTime":996.776,"body":"of the title . And, and know that"},{"startTime":996.776,"endTime":999.613,"body":"your teams isn't gonna worry about,"},{"startTime":996.776,"endTime":999.613,"body":"your team's not gonna worry about that"},{"startTime":999.776,"endTime":1001.358,"body":"cuz it's just an idea at that point."},{"startTime":1001.367,"endTime":1001.658,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1002.204,"endTime":1002.668,"body":"Invest."},{"startTime":1002.668,"endTime":1002.886,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1003.213,"endTime":1005.04,"body":"Here is the next, here is the next one."},{"startTime":1005.045,"endTime":1007.168,"body":"Number five, invest Question mark."},{"startTime":1008.095,"endTime":1009.022,"body":"Why is there a question mark there?"},{"startTime":1009.595,"endTime":1010.577,"body":"Invest doesn't have a question mark."},{"startTime":1011.013,"endTime":1015.377,"body":"The Scrum team does not apply the invest"},{"startTime":1011.013,"endTime":1015.377,"body":"principle to product backlog items."},{"startTime":1016.359,"endTime":1016.959,"body":"All right, hang on."},{"startTime":1017.613,"endTime":1020.913,"body":"Let's cut over here to Wikipedia for"},{"startTime":1017.613,"endTime":1020.913,"body":"help within the invest principle."},{"startTime":1020.959,"endTime":1024.059,"body":"I is independent and negotiable."},{"startTime":1024.749,"endTime":1024.931,"body":"Valuable."},{"startTime":1025.24,"endTime":1030.459,"body":"Estimatable, estimatable,"},{"startTime":1025.24,"endTime":1030.459,"body":"estimable, estimatable."},{"startTime":1030.722,"endTime":1034.377,"body":"Small, testable, INVEST."},{"startTime":1034.574,"endTime":1034.928,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1035.233,"endTime":1041.301,"body":"The antipattern is not having"},{"startTime":1035.233,"endTime":1041.301,"body":"every product backlog item"},{"startTime":1041.347,"endTime":1043.347,"body":"fitting the invest criteria."},{"startTime":1044.04,"endTime":1047.93,"body":"I'm on the fence on this because here"},{"startTime":1044.04,"endTime":1047.93,"body":"he's saying  if you go back to the, um,"},{"startTime":1048.012,"endTime":1049.803,"body":"the criticism or, or the point mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1049.875,"endTime":1052.403,"body":", the scrum team does not apply the"},{"startTime":1049.875,"endTime":1052.403,"body":"investments for the pro backlog items."},{"startTime":1052.757,"endTime":1056.93,"body":"To me, that's too general because"},{"startTime":1052.757,"endTime":1056.93,"body":"a pro backlog item has that notion"},{"startTime":1056.93,"endTime":1058.603,"body":"of immediacy versus latency."},{"startTime":1058.603,"endTime":1058.857,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1059.003,"endTime":1063.121,"body":". So if you've got stuff that's near the top"},{"startTime":1059.003,"endTime":1063.121,"body":"of the backlog, you should be doing this."},{"startTime":1063.121,"endTime":1063.366,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1063.394,"endTime":1065.93,"body":"You should, you should be applying"},{"startTime":1063.394,"endTime":1065.93,"body":"the investment principle, making"},{"startTime":1065.93,"endTime":1067.266,"body":"sure they're small enough, testable."},{"startTime":1068.248,"endTime":1069.066,"body":"Estimatable."},{"startTime":1069.066,"endTime":1069.357,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1069.43,"endTime":1069.684,"body":", et cetera."},{"startTime":1069.684,"endTime":1070.194,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1070.757,"endTime":1073.184,"body":", then you've got that stuff"},{"startTime":1070.757,"endTime":1073.184,"body":"that's, you know, lowered down."},{"startTime":1073.63,"endTime":1075.503,"body":"You, you don't have to be doing that."},{"startTime":1075.721,"endTime":1075.803,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1075.803,"endTime":1077.139,"body":"For those work items, right."},{"startTime":1077.166,"endTime":1077.739,"body":"Yet."},{"startTime":1077.821,"endTime":1077.984,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1078.203,"endTime":1078.584,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1078.721,"endTime":1081.148,"body":"Over time, you'll get to them if"},{"startTime":1078.721,"endTime":1081.148,"body":"they're still around by that time."},{"startTime":1081.53,"endTime":1083.494,"body":"So I don't know what he's saying."},{"startTime":1083.494,"endTime":1087.284,"body":"Is this, he's, is he saying that, uh,"},{"startTime":1083.494,"endTime":1087.284,"body":"the Scrum team does not apply them at"},{"startTime":1087.284,"endTime":1089.33,"body":"all or to all of the backlog items?"},{"startTime":1089.33,"endTime":1090.394,"body":"I'm not sure how to read this."},{"startTime":1090.484,"endTime":1093.866,"body":"Let's pretend that the Scrum team doesn't"},{"startTime":1090.484,"endTime":1093.866,"body":"know anything about the Invest acronym."},{"startTime":1093.866,"endTime":1094.739,"body":"They never heard about it."},{"startTime":1096.13,"endTime":1097.057,"body":"they don't know what that means."},{"startTime":1097.575,"endTime":1100.766,"body":"They're just writing stories"},{"startTime":1097.575,"endTime":1100.766,"body":"and acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":1101.666,"endTime":1104.448,"body":"in that scenario you're gonna see"},{"startTime":1101.666,"endTime":1104.448,"body":"some evidence pretty quickly that"},{"startTime":1104.748,"endTime":1108.13,"body":"this is not happening because stories"},{"startTime":1104.748,"endTime":1108.13,"body":"will be too large, maybe too large."},{"startTime":1108.134,"endTime":1112.384,"body":"If fit in the sprint, the requirements"},{"startTime":1108.134,"endTime":1112.384,"body":"might be too ambiguous they may"},{"startTime":1112.384,"endTime":1115.521,"body":"be producing stuff that is truly"},{"startTime":1112.384,"endTime":1115.521,"body":"not valuable for the customer.."},{"startTime":1115.553,"endTime":1115.734,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1115.807,"endTime":1116.534,"body":"the V and invest."},{"startTime":1116.534,"endTime":1116.753,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1116.889,"endTime":1120.407,"body":"."},{"startTime":1116.889,"endTime":1120.407,"body":"it's a great idea, but is it really"},{"startTime":1120.412,"endTime":1120.68,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1120.68,"endTime":1121.689,"body":"Do they get value out of it?"},{"startTime":1122.18,"endTime":1124.007,"body":"Um, so you'll, you'll see"},{"startTime":1122.18,"endTime":1124.007,"body":"evidence of this Nice."},{"startTime":1124.007,"endTime":1124.689,"body":"Pretty quickly."},{"startTime":1124.78,"endTime":1128.489,"body":"When I'm looking at the individual"},{"startTime":1124.78,"endTime":1128.489,"body":"items inside of the Invest acronym,"},{"startTime":1128.534,"endTime":1130.798,"body":"I think it's kind of interesting"},{"startTime":1128.534,"endTime":1130.798,"body":"because I, I would figure."},{"startTime":1131.016,"endTime":1137.48,"body":"It, you can get all, everything in invest"},{"startTime":1131.016,"endTime":1137.48,"body":"you can do and get easily without the"},{"startTime":1137.48,"endTime":1143.671,"body":"V You can have independent, negotiable,"},{"startTime":1137.48,"endTime":1143.671,"body":"estimatable, estimatable, estimatable,"},{"startTime":1143.916,"endTime":1149.534,"body":"small and testable increments of work,"},{"startTime":1143.916,"endTime":1149.534,"body":"and you can have all day long, but it's"},{"startTime":1149.534,"endTime":1152.071,"body":"not connected to value for the customer."},{"startTime":1152.234,"endTime":1153.871,"body":"Then why do it or the other way around?"},{"startTime":1153.871,"endTime":1156.516,"body":"I could, I could easily see the other"},{"startTime":1153.871,"endTime":1156.516,"body":"way around because you have, you have"},{"startTime":1156.516,"endTime":1161.653,"body":"any one of these items plus valuable and"},{"startTime":1156.516,"endTime":1161.653,"body":"that's a whole different . Discussion."},{"startTime":1162.253,"endTime":1167.944,"body":"If I could stack rank this list, what"},{"startTime":1162.253,"endTime":1167.944,"body":"would be number one in the invest."},{"startTime":1167.998,"endTime":1168.789,"body":"I was gonna say independent."},{"startTime":1168.816,"endTime":1169.634,"body":"That's way too many."},{"startTime":1170.153,"endTime":1171.216,"body":"I'm, I'm thinking Beyonce."},{"startTime":1171.221,"endTime":1172.498,"body":"That's, that's what's wrong"},{"startTime":1171.221,"endTime":1172.498,"body":"with my brain right now."},{"startTime":1172.862,"endTime":1176.516,"body":"."},{"startTime":1172.862,"endTime":1176.516,"body":"if I could stack, rank, invest and"},{"startTime":1176.516,"endTime":1177.825,"body":"it would be called Invest anymore."},{"startTime":1178.265,"endTime":1179.174,"body":". I, I concur with you."},{"startTime":1179.174,"endTime":1180.674,"body":"That v trumps pretty much everything."},{"startTime":1180.674,"endTime":1181.71,"body":"You're right, that's out there."},{"startTime":1181.71,"endTime":1182.01,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1183.001,"endTime":1183.183,"body":"Valuable."},{"startTime":1183.187,"endTime":1187.083,"body":"If you're doing that, then"},{"startTime":1183.187,"endTime":1187.083,"body":"there's really nothing wrong."},{"startTime":1187.083,"endTime":1189.983,"body":"VINEST, VIN, you know, then"},{"startTime":1187.083,"endTime":1189.983,"body":"you're talking about process."},{"startTime":1190.237,"endTime":1191.292,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1191.297,"endTime":1192.21,"body":"Is it small enough?"},{"startTime":1192.256,"endTime":1193.374,"body":"Can we fit it in a sprint?"},{"startTime":1193.401,"endTime":1196.592,"body":"It's still valuable, sort doesn't"},{"startTime":1193.401,"endTime":1196.592,"body":"fit in the sprint, fit in two."},{"startTime":1196.674,"endTime":1196.81,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1196.865,"endTime":1197.847,"body":"You're delivering value."},{"startTime":1198.365,"endTime":1199.101,"body":"So, yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1199.101,"endTime":1200.847,"body":"I think V trump's everything there."},{"startTime":1201.092,"endTime":1201.201,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1201.201,"endTime":1203.274,"body":"Everything else that's"},{"startTime":1201.201,"endTime":1203.274,"body":"un that's around there."},{"startTime":1203.383,"endTime":1205.265,"body":"These are all process related issues."},{"startTime":1205.356,"endTime":1205.901,"body":". Oh boy."},{"startTime":1205.983,"endTime":1208.601,"body":"So like see our podcast on,"},{"startTime":1205.983,"endTime":1208.601,"body":"uh, the what and the how."},{"startTime":1208.606,"endTime":1208.801,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1209.801,"endTime":1210.265,"body":". Oh boy."},{"startTime":1210.347,"endTime":1211.028,"body":"Process."},{"startTime":1211.028,"endTime":1211.819,"body":"Process."},{"startTime":1212.61,"endTime":1213.319,"body":"It's important."},{"startTime":1213.81,"endTime":1214.219,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":1214.328,"endTime":1219.292,"body":"all right, so let's finish with invest"},{"startTime":1214.328,"endTime":1219.292,"body":"and go on to missing acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":1219.292,"endTime":1222.565,"body":"There are product backlog items"},{"startTime":1219.292,"endTime":1222.565,"body":"that need additional acceptance"},{"startTime":1222.565,"endTime":1225.619,"body":"criteria without listing them all."},{"startTime":1225.619,"endTime":1230.01,"body":"I got some business analysis bones to"},{"startTime":1225.619,"endTime":1230.01,"body":"pick with this item right Quick missing ac"},{"startTime":1230.556,"endTime":1235.519,"body":"I view acceptance criteria as if you"},{"startTime":1230.556,"endTime":1235.519,"body":"were to do a demo and users of that"},{"startTime":1235.519,"endTime":1241.11,"body":"item were to come to the demo, your, the"},{"startTime":1235.519,"endTime":1241.11,"body":"agenda of your demo would walk through"},{"startTime":1241.115,"endTime":1244.656,"body":"acceptance criteria one, acceptance"},{"startTime":1241.115,"endTime":1244.656,"body":"criteria two, AC three, whatever."},{"startTime":1244.706,"endTime":1249.206,"body":"That's the way that I have learned"},{"startTime":1244.706,"endTime":1249.206,"body":"and do write my acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":1249.533,"endTime":1249.806,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1249.806,"endTime":1254.797,"body":"So look on the whole, I agree with you,"},{"startTime":1249.806,"endTime":1254.797,"body":"but I'm reading between the lines here."},{"startTime":1254.824,"endTime":1257.878,"body":"He's saying without listing"},{"startTime":1254.824,"endTime":1257.878,"body":"them, why wouldn't you list them?"},{"startTime":1257.951,"endTime":1259.997,"body":"If you missed them, that's"},{"startTime":1257.951,"endTime":1259.997,"body":"a different conversation."},{"startTime":1260.187,"endTime":1264.133,"body":"However, not all acceptance"},{"startTime":1260.187,"endTime":1264.133,"body":"criteria are, demonstrable."},{"startTime":1264.324,"endTime":1266.042,"body":"Demonstrable, , in the review."},{"startTime":1266.315,"endTime":1267.797,"body":"Like, for example, NFRs."},{"startTime":1267.815,"endTime":1268.115,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":1268.119,"endTime":1272.015,"body":"If something is scalable is, is how,"},{"startTime":1268.119,"endTime":1272.015,"body":"is that something that you can show?"},{"startTime":1272.151,"endTime":1273.542,"body":"Maybe you can do some markups."},{"startTime":1273.769,"endTime":1276.142,"body":"And do some artificial load"},{"startTime":1273.769,"endTime":1276.142,"body":"testing and things like that."},{"startTime":1276.96,"endTime":1280.169,"body":"People don't do that in a review"},{"startTime":1276.96,"endTime":1280.169,"body":"necessarily cuz the audience"},{"startTime":1280.174,"endTime":1281.297,"body":"isn't really expecting that."},{"startTime":1281.36,"endTime":1286.41,"body":". . But the contract they have with you is"},{"startTime":1281.36,"endTime":1286.41,"body":"this thing will, uh, scale up to a, let's"},{"startTime":1286.41,"endTime":1288.019,"body":"say a hundred thousand simultaneous users."},{"startTime":1288.074,"endTime":1288.265,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1288.269,"endTime":1288.728,"body":"For example."},{"startTime":1288.733,"endTime":1289.219,"body":"Sure, sure, sure."},{"startTime":1289.224,"endTime":1293.174,"body":"It's hard to demo that, but it is an"},{"startTime":1289.224,"endTime":1293.174,"body":"acceptance criteria cuz they don't"},{"startTime":1293.174,"endTime":1294.728,"body":"want it to choke once it's in the wild."},{"startTime":1295.247,"endTime":1298.192,"body":"So I think that's maybe what I"},{"startTime":1295.247,"endTime":1298.192,"body":"read here between the lines is,"},{"startTime":1298.247,"endTime":1300.428,"body":"you know, there are, there are"},{"startTime":1298.247,"endTime":1300.428,"body":"acceptance criteria that are missing."},{"startTime":1300.619,"endTime":1300.756,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1301.165,"endTime":1304.519,"body":"My, uh, my 2 cents worth here,"},{"startTime":1301.165,"endTime":1304.519,"body":"I'm not that generous today."},{"startTime":1304.547,"endTime":1308.092,"body":"Maybe my 1 cents worth"},{"startTime":1304.547,"endTime":1308.092,"body":"here is split those out."},{"startTime":1308.119,"endTime":1308.628,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1308.774,"endTime":1310.519,"body":"Split those out into a separate."},{"startTime":1311.019,"endTime":1314.974,"body":"backlog item that says,"},{"startTime":1311.019,"endTime":1314.974,"body":"this is a dependency now."},{"startTime":1315.001,"endTime":1316.937,"body":"So this, this scaling piece is separate."},{"startTime":1317.074,"endTime":1320.483,"body":"That has to be met before this other"},{"startTime":1317.074,"endTime":1320.483,"body":"thing that you've developed, right."},{"startTime":1320.483,"endTime":1322.051,"body":"Can be, , deployed in production."},{"startTime":1322.144,"endTime":1322.472,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":1322.772,"endTime":1324.926,"body":"Well, that's missing acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":1324.931,"endTime":1326.072,"body":"Let's move on to number seven."},{"startTime":1326.235,"endTime":1328.39,"body":"100% in advance."},{"startTime":1328.499,"endTime":1332.399,"body":"I feel this is the previous item taken to"},{"startTime":1328.499,"endTime":1332.399,"body":"the next level and then shot to the moon."},{"startTime":1333.113,"endTime":1336.196,"body":", uh, . The scrum team creates"},{"startTime":1333.113,"endTime":1336.196,"body":"a product backlog covering the"},{"startTime":1336.678,"endTime":1340.123,"body":"complete project or product up front."},{"startTime":1341.086,"endTime":1345.068,"body":"."},{"startTime":1341.086,"endTime":1345.068,"body":"I realize how crazy this sounds,"},{"startTime":1345.072,"endTime":1348.986,"body":"I also, have been on programs and"},{"startTime":1345.072,"endTime":1348.986,"body":"projects where the business says we"},{"startTime":1348.99,"endTime":1354.931,"body":"need to know what 100% of everything"},{"startTime":1348.99,"endTime":1354.931,"body":"that this project is gonna do."},{"startTime":1355.649,"endTime":1358.731,"body":"We need to know how long that's"},{"startTime":1355.649,"endTime":1358.731,"body":"gonna take, because usually because"},{"startTime":1358.731,"endTime":1362.058,"body":"they're trying to go up for budget"},{"startTime":1358.731,"endTime":1362.058,"body":"or they're jockeying for money, or"},{"startTime":1362.058,"endTime":1364.677,"body":"they're trying to write a pitch for"},{"startTime":1362.058,"endTime":1364.677,"body":"the program or many, many other things."},{"startTime":1365.004,"endTime":1370.622,"body":"So while I, I also scoff at an"},{"startTime":1365.004,"endTime":1370.622,"body":"an item written like this talking"},{"startTime":1370.622,"endTime":1374.304,"body":"about like, oh, I need to know 100%"},{"startTime":1370.622,"endTime":1374.304,"body":"of what's gonna happen in advance."},{"startTime":1374.713,"endTime":1379.104,"body":"There's also the concept of you having to,"},{"startTime":1374.713,"endTime":1379.104,"body":"you as a product person, having to demo"},{"startTime":1379.295,"endTime":1383.604,"body":"to investors or people that are looking"},{"startTime":1379.295,"endTime":1383.604,"body":"for three years out for your company."},{"startTime":1384.763,"endTime":1389.272,"body":"and you have a need to fulfill"},{"startTime":1384.763,"endTime":1389.272,"body":"with that type of audience."},{"startTime":1389.322,"endTime":1393.577,"body":"For people trying to build a program over"},{"startTime":1389.322,"endTime":1393.577,"body":"time, you need a, you need something,"},{"startTime":1394.149,"endTime":1395.513,"body":"you need something, you need a roadmap."},{"startTime":1395.513,"endTime":1397.368,"body":"You need something that says,"},{"startTime":1395.513,"endTime":1397.368,"body":"these are the things that we"},{"startTime":1397.368,"endTime":1398.458,"body":"are trying to do over time."},{"startTime":1400.495,"endTime":1400.731,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1400.795,"endTime":1403.777,"body":"I, I think you do, you need to"},{"startTime":1400.795,"endTime":1403.777,"body":"have a roadmap that, basically"},{"startTime":1404.258,"endTime":1405.358,"body":"showcases what you're trying to do."},{"startTime":1405.44,"endTime":1405.931,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1405.931,"endTime":1406.286,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":1406.668,"endTime":1410.24,"body":"You know, when, when he is talking"},{"startTime":1406.668,"endTime":1410.24,"body":"about a product backlog, however, right."},{"startTime":1410.349,"endTime":1414.004,"body":"Specifically, creating"},{"startTime":1410.349,"endTime":1414.004,"body":"everything upfront in advance."},{"startTime":1414.44,"endTime":1415.558,"body":"A hundred percent."},{"startTime":1415.886,"endTime":1416.704,"body":"Pretty accurate There."},{"startTime":1416.704,"endTime":1417.686,"body":"A hundred percent, yes."},{"startTime":1417.768,"endTime":1423.058,"body":"Where I've seen that is in scenarios"},{"startTime":1417.768,"endTime":1423.058,"body":"where people are, oh, I wanted to"},{"startTime":1423.058,"endTime":1426.386,"body":"say generously transitioning from"},{"startTime":1423.058,"endTime":1426.386,"body":"that old waterfall mentality, right?"},{"startTime":1426.386,"endTime":1426.468,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1426.958,"endTime":1429.522,"body":"But in reality, they're not"},{"startTime":1426.958,"endTime":1429.522,"body":"transitioning, they're still stuck there."},{"startTime":1429.958,"endTime":1432.877,"body":"so with their feet in the, you know,"},{"startTime":1429.958,"endTime":1432.877,"body":"in the mud, what they're trying to"},{"startTime":1432.881,"endTime":1438.263,"body":"do is, Get everything documented and"},{"startTime":1432.881,"endTime":1438.263,"body":"then signed off in blood requirements."},{"startTime":1438.263,"endTime":1442.036,"body":"Signed, signed off, and those"},{"startTime":1438.263,"endTime":1442.036,"body":"requirements are your product backlog."},{"startTime":1442.09,"endTime":1442.227,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1442.608,"endTime":1443.836,"body":"That's where I've seen this."},{"startTime":1443.836,"endTime":1446.536,"body":"And of course it doesn't work because"},{"startTime":1443.836,"endTime":1446.536,"body":"you could get your signature, right?"},{"startTime":1446.59,"endTime":1446.672,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1446.672,"endTime":1450.736,"body":"You can then go about your merry way and"},{"startTime":1446.672,"endTime":1450.736,"body":"then the minute something, uh, deviates"},{"startTime":1450.908,"endTime":1454.808,"body":"from the original list, you could jump"},{"startTime":1450.908,"endTime":1454.808,"body":"up and down and say, change request."},{"startTime":1454.827,"endTime":1455.518,"body":"Change request."},{"startTime":1455.536,"endTime":1456.481,"body":"The investors' going so?"},{"startTime":1456.708,"endTime":1457.745,"body":"My business has changed."},{"startTime":1457.863,"endTime":1461.272,"body":"So that's where I've seen this"},{"startTime":1457.863,"endTime":1461.272,"body":"typically, um, project managers"},{"startTime":1461.272,"endTime":1464.886,"body":"creating, you know, Work playground"},{"startTime":1461.272,"endTime":1464.886,"body":"structures for the whole product."},{"startTime":1465.022,"endTime":1465.213,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1465.213,"endTime":1465.649,"body":"Day one."},{"startTime":1465.677,"endTime":1465.84,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1466.44,"endTime":1467.804,"body":"So they spend three days Yeah."},{"startTime":1467.804,"endTime":1471.404,"body":"And come up with this thing that's gonna"},{"startTime":1467.804,"endTime":1471.404,"body":"span a year and say, this is what we need."},{"startTime":1471.458,"endTime":1471.622,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1471.649,"endTime":1473.34,"body":"Like they know authoratatively"},{"startTime":1471.649,"endTime":1473.34,"body":"to lay upfront."},{"startTime":1473.422,"endTime":1476.258,"body":"Well that's, I mean, that, that right"},{"startTime":1473.422,"endTime":1476.258,"body":"there is an interesting topic to"},{"startTime":1476.258,"endTime":1479.563,"body":"talk about, which I don't know if it"},{"startTime":1476.258,"endTime":1479.563,"body":"belongs inside of this podcast, so"},{"startTime":1479.563,"endTime":1480.736,"body":"of course I'm gonna talk about it."},{"startTime":1480.908,"endTime":1484.863,"body":"Old school organizations usually"},{"startTime":1480.908,"endTime":1484.863,"body":"will go to project managers to say,"},{"startTime":1485.272,"endTime":1488.627,"body":"I don't know how many people I should"},{"startTime":1485.272,"endTime":1488.627,"body":"be looking to hire for this program."},{"startTime":1488.927,"endTime":1492.554,"body":"You need to tell me basically, how,"},{"startTime":1488.927,"endTime":1492.554,"body":"who, how many people should I hire?"},{"startTime":1492.69,"endTime":1493.699,"body":"How many teams do I need?"},{"startTime":1493.699,"endTime":1494.563,"body":"How many of this, how many of that?"},{"startTime":1494.89,"endTime":1497.89,"body":"They'll go to a project manager"},{"startTime":1494.89,"endTime":1497.89,"body":"for that kind of information."},{"startTime":1498.254,"endTime":1499.809,"body":"is there even an equivalent?"},{"startTime":1500.354,"endTime":1504.091,"body":"Does that in any way intersect with this a"},{"startTime":1500.354,"endTime":1504.091,"body":"hundred percent in advance kind of thing?"},{"startTime":1504.391,"endTime":1506.0,"body":"I, I think it does tangentially."},{"startTime":1506.188,"endTime":1511.006,"body":"so again, going back to this discussions"},{"startTime":1506.188,"endTime":1511.006,"body":"around the product backlog mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1511.078,"endTime":1515.297,"body":", so that project manager, I dare say, isn't"},{"startTime":1511.078,"endTime":1515.297,"body":"equipped to create a product backlog."},{"startTime":1515.451,"endTime":1515.769,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1515.86,"endTime":1517.142,"body":"different p for starters."},{"startTime":1517.147,"endTime":1517.197,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1517.224,"endTime":1521.178,"body":"But what they can do is they can say,"},{"startTime":1517.224,"endTime":1521.178,"body":"high level, this is what we need here."},{"startTime":1521.183,"endTime":1522.078,"body":"Are they again?"},{"startTime":1522.078,"endTime":1524.424,"body":"High level work breakdown packages?"},{"startTime":1524.451,"endTime":1524.615,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1524.615,"endTime":1527.833,"body":"That they create and they say, we,"},{"startTime":1524.615,"endTime":1527.833,"body":"and this is where there's no science."},{"startTime":1528.506,"endTime":1531.833,"body":", they fall back on what in traditional"},{"startTime":1528.506,"endTime":1531.833,"body":"project management is called"},{"startTime":1531.838,"endTime":1533.142,"body":"analogous estimation, right?"},{"startTime":1533.197,"endTime":1533.278,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1533.306,"endTime":1535.024,"body":"They say, well, I've done"},{"startTime":1533.306,"endTime":1535.024,"body":"this sort of thing before."},{"startTime":1535.024,"endTime":1537.042,"body":"It's not exactly the same,"},{"startTime":1535.024,"endTime":1537.042,"body":"but it's pretty similar."},{"startTime":1537.069,"endTime":1537.26,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1537.315,"endTime":1541.242,"body":"So we think it's gonna take about the"},{"startTime":1537.315,"endTime":1541.242,"body":"same, roughly same amount of time, that's"},{"startTime":1541.247,"endTime":1543.915,"body":"how they derive the staffing level needed."},{"startTime":1543.969,"endTime":1547.188,"body":"Um, unfortunately that is never accurate."},{"startTime":1547.351,"endTime":1547.842,"body":"Actually."},{"startTime":1548.306,"endTime":1549.615,"body":"Interestingly, it was never accurate."},{"startTime":1550.142,"endTime":1552.133,"body":"or even close, even in"},{"startTime":1550.142,"endTime":1552.133,"body":"the waterfall model."},{"startTime":1552.133,"endTime":1552.215,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1552.488,"endTime":1554.833,"body":", the reason being every project is unique."},{"startTime":1555.088,"endTime":1559.124,"body":"So I, I think there's a little bit of"},{"startTime":1555.088,"endTime":1559.124,"body":"intersection here, but only to the point"},{"startTime":1559.124,"endTime":1563.469,"body":"where you are just a, you're, you're"},{"startTime":1559.124,"endTime":1563.469,"body":"reflect are reflecting on a previous"},{"startTime":1563.474,"endTime":1565.451,"body":"project and kind of estimating from there."},{"startTime":1565.615,"endTime":1565.669,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1565.697,"endTime":1568.206,"body":"B, whatever you are"},{"startTime":1565.697,"endTime":1568.206,"body":"estimating is very high level."},{"startTime":1568.206,"endTime":1569.024,"body":"It's not really a."},{"startTime":1570.278,"endTime":1573.606,"body":". Uh, so if you are talking about really"},{"startTime":1570.278,"endTime":1573.606,"body":"fleshing out the product capabilities"},{"startTime":1573.96,"endTime":1575.215,"body":"and the attributes of the product Yeah."},{"startTime":1575.215,"endTime":1576.797,"body":"The functionality a hundred percent."},{"startTime":1577.042,"endTime":1577.151,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1577.178,"endTime":1578.297,"body":"That's what I read here, right?"},{"startTime":1578.718,"endTime":1579.727,"body":"and maybe I'm missing it."},{"startTime":1579.727,"endTime":1581.309,"body":"No, but if that's the"},{"startTime":1579.727,"endTime":1581.309,"body":"case, then it's wrong."},{"startTime":1581.336,"endTime":1581.781,"body":"No, you're right."},{"startTime":1581.781,"endTime":1582.809,"body":"If you don't know what you don't know."},{"startTime":1582.881,"endTime":1583.181,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1583.181,"endTime":1585.118,"body":"I, I, uh, I think it's kind of silly."},{"startTime":1585.118,"endTime":1588.554,"body":"I, I, I'm not sure if it's even possible"},{"startTime":1585.118,"endTime":1588.554,"body":"to cover a hundred percent, like."},{"startTime":1589.05,"endTime":1592.731,"body":"Even if you're really, even if you're"},{"startTime":1589.05,"endTime":1592.731,"body":"a really, really, really lucky ba,"},{"startTime":1593.368,"endTime":1594.641,"body":"I, I just don't see it happening."},{"startTime":1594.641,"endTime":1594.75,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1595.077,"endTime":1595.322,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1595.486,"endTime":1597.75,"body":"So we're done with number seven"},{"startTime":1595.486,"endTime":1597.75,"body":"and we'll move on to number eight."},{"startTime":1598.122,"endTime":1599.359,"body":"No more than a title."},{"startTime":1599.359,"endTime":1604.268,"body":"The product backlog contains items  that"},{"startTime":1599.359,"endTime":1604.268,"body":"comprise little more than a title."},{"startTime":1604.431,"endTime":1605.55,"body":"Oh, I , I understand."},{"startTime":1606.231,"endTime":1606.559,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":1606.563,"endTime":1607.404,"body":"I don't know why I read it."},{"startTime":1607.404,"endTime":1609.647,"body":"So creepily like, I, I don't"},{"startTime":1607.404,"endTime":1609.647,"body":"know why I read it like that."},{"startTime":1609.692,"endTime":1613.974,"body":"this is actually a really, really normal"},{"startTime":1609.692,"endTime":1613.974,"body":"thing to run into in product management,"},{"startTime":1614.165,"endTime":1617.928,"body":"scrum Mastery team even being on a team,"},{"startTime":1614.165,"endTime":1617.928,"body":"going to another team like you get to"},{"startTime":1617.928,"endTime":1621.283,"body":"another team and they don't talk about"},{"startTime":1617.928,"endTime":1621.283,"body":"how they're gonna implement anything."},{"startTime":1621.283,"endTime":1624.474,"body":"Everything's just like a title"},{"startTime":1621.283,"endTime":1624.474,"body":"with no description at all."},{"startTime":1624.474,"endTime":1625.565,"body":"Maybe a couple comments."},{"startTime":1625.906,"endTime":1627.569,"body":"Maybe some links and that's it."},{"startTime":1627.569,"endTime":1631.388,"body":"And it's just a title, like no acceptance"},{"startTime":1627.569,"endTime":1631.388,"body":"criteria, no nothing, just a title."},{"startTime":1631.551,"endTime":1635.206,"body":"If you, if you're working on a product"},{"startTime":1631.551,"endTime":1635.206,"body":"backlog item that has only just a title"},{"startTime":1635.206,"endTime":1636.924,"body":"and nothing much more than that, yeah."},{"startTime":1636.951,"endTime":1639.76,"body":"That is an anti, that's something"},{"startTime":1636.951,"endTime":1639.76,"body":"you need to squash down."},{"startTime":1640.115,"endTime":1643.878,"body":"But if you've got just one liner"},{"startTime":1640.115,"endTime":1643.878,"body":"is just a title way down in"},{"startTime":1643.878,"endTime":1645.16,"body":"your backlog, I'm fine with it."},{"startTime":1645.569,"endTime":1646.988,"body":"Yeah, because you're not"},{"startTime":1645.569,"endTime":1646.988,"body":"gonna get to it anyway."},{"startTime":1646.988,"endTime":1647.069,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1647.097,"endTime":1649.933,"body":"You may never get to it, so why"},{"startTime":1647.097,"endTime":1649.933,"body":"invest the time in fleshing it out?"},{"startTime":1650.297,"endTime":1651.197,"body":"This is a good one."},{"startTime":1651.524,"endTime":1655.039,"body":"No more than a title it's being"},{"startTime":1651.524,"endTime":1655.039,"body":"brought up in this context as"},{"startTime":1655.121,"endTime":1659.103,"body":"product backlog item level, which"},{"startTime":1655.121,"endTime":1659.103,"body":"makes me think team story level."},{"startTime":1659.294,"endTime":1659.594,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1659.648,"endTime":1661.612,"body":"The team's just not spending"},{"startTime":1659.648,"endTime":1661.612,"body":"time on refinements."},{"startTime":1661.83,"endTime":1663.658,"body":"The team's not really"},{"startTime":1661.83,"endTime":1663.658,"body":"spending time planning."},{"startTime":1663.794,"endTime":1666.673,"body":"They're kind of just, they're kind"},{"startTime":1663.794,"endTime":1666.673,"body":"of hoping they can, pick it up"},{"startTime":1666.673,"endTime":1669.664,"body":"and figure it out and, they're not"},{"startTime":1666.673,"endTime":1669.664,"body":"thinking they need to spend time"},{"startTime":1670.318,"endTime":1672.227,"body":"talking about how to implement things."},{"startTime":1672.227,"endTime":1674.382,"body":"That's what, but the nice thing"},{"startTime":1672.227,"endTime":1674.382,"body":"about this is this could apply"},{"startTime":1674.682,"endTime":1676.7,"body":"at any level in the backlog."},{"startTime":1676.945,"endTime":1677.6,"body":"This could apply."},{"startTime":1677.791,"endTime":1681.145,"body":"I, I want to take this up one"},{"startTime":1677.791,"endTime":1681.145,"body":"step above the team level to say"},{"startTime":1681.336,"endTime":1683.873,"body":"all of your epics or whatever"},{"startTime":1681.336,"endTime":1683.873,"body":"features or whatever they're called,"},{"startTime":1684.541,"endTime":1688.386,"body":"they're all one line with like,"},{"startTime":1684.541,"endTime":1688.386,"body":"no, no good business case, no good."},{"startTime":1688.386,"endTime":1690.268,"body":"Like, no, no set of ideas."},{"startTime":1690.432,"endTime":1693.977,"body":"No set of like, Hey, we tried this, or,"},{"startTime":1690.432,"endTime":1693.977,"body":"Hey, these metrics or these whatever."},{"startTime":1694.223,"endTime":1697.195,"body":"So if you, if you punch up from"},{"startTime":1694.223,"endTime":1697.195,"body":"your story to the higher level and"},{"startTime":1697.195,"endTime":1699.459,"body":"you see absolutely nothing, yeah."},{"startTime":1699.459,"endTime":1701.395,"body":"You, you  run, run."},{"startTime":1701.45,"endTime":1702.759,"body":"You're okay to be worried."},{"startTime":1702.805,"endTime":1707.359,"body":"you're cleared by the arguing Agile"},{"startTime":1702.805,"endTime":1707.359,"body":"podcast to start asking questions"},{"startTime":1707.364,"endTime":1709.077,"body":"about, ooh, what's going on here?"},{"startTime":1709.077,"endTime":1711.15,"body":"Why is, why you are double"},{"startTime":1709.077,"endTime":1711.15,"body":"certified in that case."},{"startTime":1711.15,"endTime":1711.286,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1711.291,"endTime":1716.718,"body":"I'd also A level down from this,"},{"startTime":1711.291,"endTime":1716.718,"body":"from the story level down to like the"},{"startTime":1716.718,"endTime":1720.627,"body":"developer task level, whatever you, I"},{"startTime":1716.718,"endTime":1720.627,"body":"dunno if you call that subtask in Jira"},{"startTime":1720.645,"endTime":1724.218,"body":"and you call it something else in, in,"},{"startTime":1720.645,"endTime":1724.218,"body":"in Azure, DevOps, I can't remember."},{"startTime":1724.227,"endTime":1724.627,"body":"Task."},{"startTime":1724.791,"endTime":1724.9,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1724.9,"endTime":1725.691,"body":"Is it tasks?"},{"startTime":1726.295,"endTime":1727.032,"body":"whatever level you're at."},{"startTime":1727.114,"endTime":1732.759,"body":"Like if, if those items of like the,"},{"startTime":1727.114,"endTime":1732.759,"body":"the, the actual step by step like do"},{"startTime":1732.764,"endTime":1736.632,"body":"this and then do this and do this, like"},{"startTime":1732.764,"endTime":1736.632,"body":"the steps to implement, if those items"},{"startTime":1736.632,"endTime":1741.65,"body":"are also just a title and the team"},{"startTime":1736.632,"endTime":1741.65,"body":"hasn't actually like drawn up database"},{"startTime":1741.655,"endTime":1746.041,"body":"diagrams and drawn up, how, how the"},{"startTime":1741.655,"endTime":1746.041,"body":"Kafka, the topic is gonna look like."},{"startTime":1746.205,"endTime":1747.159,"body":"They haven't drawn up any of that."},{"startTime":1747.159,"endTime":1750.377,"body":"I would also equally be worried"},{"startTime":1747.159,"endTime":1750.377,"body":"as much as I'm worried about there"},{"startTime":1750.377,"endTime":1753.977,"body":"not really being a strategy and I'm"},{"startTime":1750.377,"endTime":1753.977,"body":"doubly worried about there not really"},{"startTime":1753.982,"endTime":1755.477,"body":"being any implementation details."},{"startTime":1755.695,"endTime":1757.141,"body":"So I'm worried about both of those."},{"startTime":1757.741,"endTime":1759.977,"body":"You make an excellent point"},{"startTime":1757.741,"endTime":1759.977,"body":"about implementation details cuz"},{"startTime":1759.977,"endTime":1761.205,"body":"all too often we've seen that."},{"startTime":1761.873,"endTime":1765.118,"body":", X doing X, Y, z refactoring"},{"startTime":1761.873,"endTime":1765.118,"body":"this, doing this, but there's"},{"startTime":1765.118,"endTime":1766.291,"body":"no detail underneath that."},{"startTime":1766.291,"endTime":1767.736,"body":"You know, I'm writing an api."},{"startTime":1767.764,"endTime":1768.827,"body":"Oh, where's the API spec?"},{"startTime":1768.832,"endTime":1769.591,"body":"Where's the contract?"},{"startTime":1769.591,"endTime":1770.245,"body":"You don't see that."},{"startTime":1770.545,"endTime":1772.291,"body":"So you absolutely agree with that."},{"startTime":1772.591,"endTime":1776.464,"body":"I do wanna go back to the, the point,"},{"startTime":1772.591,"endTime":1776.464,"body":"though, no more than a title, cuz who is"},{"startTime":1776.464,"endTime":1778.373,"body":"writing this stuff in the product backlog?"},{"startTime":1778.427,"endTime":1784.7,"body":"Potentially you could feed a, you"},{"startTime":1778.427,"endTime":1784.7,"body":"could feed into this from the customer"},{"startTime":1784.705,"endTime":1786.582,"body":"base, their wishes, desires, et cetera."},{"startTime":1786.909,"endTime":1786.991,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1786.991,"endTime":1788.9,"body":"And they will be no more than a title."},{"startTime":1788.982,"endTime":1789.691,"body":"I guarantee you."},{"startTime":1789.718,"endTime":1792.009,"body":"They, they don't have the know-how"},{"startTime":1789.718,"endTime":1792.009,"body":"to write any more than that."},{"startTime":1792.014,"endTime":1795.964,"body":"They just say, well, you"},{"startTime":1792.014,"endTime":1795.964,"body":"know, I want purple M and mss."},{"startTime":1796.018,"endTime":1797.055,"body":"That's it, that's the title."},{"startTime":1797.273,"endTime":1797.382,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1797.464,"endTime":1799.045,"body":"Now, now you've gotta figure that out."},{"startTime":1799.045,"endTime":1801.882,"body":"So two things there that"},{"startTime":1799.045,"endTime":1801.882,"body":"could be a different."},{"startTime":1802.536,"endTime":1802.755,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1802.809,"endTime":1805.455,"body":"Altogether could be, or it could"},{"startTime":1802.809,"endTime":1805.455,"body":"be the same backlog, right."},{"startTime":1805.836,"endTime":1809.027,"body":"Where it could do this number of"},{"startTime":1805.836,"endTime":1809.027,"body":"different ways, a tag or whatever it is."},{"startTime":1809.245,"endTime":1809.409,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1809.409,"endTime":1812.509,"body":"The way you identify, just these"},{"startTime":1809.409,"endTime":1812.509,"body":"things are very high level boulders"},{"startTime":1812.845,"endTime":1814.782,"body":"and they may never get broken down."},{"startTime":1814.973,"endTime":1817.045,"body":"So in that case, is it okay"},{"startTime":1814.973,"endTime":1817.045,"body":"to have no more than a title?"},{"startTime":1817.045,"endTime":1817.782,"body":"Yeah, I think so."},{"startTime":1817.918,"endTime":1818.027,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1818.055,"endTime":1820.427,"body":"Because the team's never gonna"},{"startTime":1818.055,"endTime":1820.427,"body":"touch it until it's really broken"},{"startTime":1820.427,"endTime":1822.291,"body":"down and,  size refined, et cetera."},{"startTime":1822.364,"endTime":1825.091,"body":"So yeah, I, this one's a bit"},{"startTime":1822.364,"endTime":1825.091,"body":"more a nebulous one for me."},{"startTime":1825.309,"endTime":1825.609,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1825.7,"endTime":1828.4,"body":"I, I definitely agree with the"},{"startTime":1825.7,"endTime":1828.4,"body":"upstream stuff, like if it's, if"},{"startTime":1828.405,"endTime":1832.627,"body":"it's large, large rocks, I mean, it,"},{"startTime":1828.405,"endTime":1832.627,"body":"it could continue to live upstream."},{"startTime":1832.709,"endTime":1835.355,"body":"Upstream, upstream, , upstream."},{"startTime":1835.355,"endTime":1836.009,"body":"I like that one."},{"startTime":1836.009,"endTime":1836.609,"body":"That's Freudian."},{"startTime":1836.664,"endTime":1839.764,"body":"It could continue to"},{"startTime":1836.664,"endTime":1839.764,"body":"live Upstream f forever."},{"startTime":1839.882,"endTime":1841.218,"body":"Anyway, that's step eight."},{"startTime":1841.218,"endTime":1841.845,"body":"No more than the title."},{"startTime":1841.845,"endTime":1842.718,"body":"Let's move on a step nine."},{"startTime":1842.936,"endTime":1844.245,"body":"Storage for ideas."},{"startTime":1844.355,"endTime":1850.491,"body":"The product owner uses the product backlog"},{"startTime":1844.355,"endTime":1850.491,"body":"as repository of ideas and requirements."},{"startTime":1851.264,"endTime":1855.764,"body":"I think we've hit the first one"},{"startTime":1851.264,"endTime":1855.764,"body":"in the whole list that I actually"},{"startTime":1856.718,"endTime":1858.545,"body":"pretty much flat out disagree with."},{"startTime":1859.05,"endTime":1861.614,"body":"It'd be nice if I had a visual"},{"startTime":1859.05,"endTime":1861.614,"body":"representation of this, but I don't."},{"startTime":1861.618,"endTime":1862.214,"body":"So here we go."},{"startTime":1862.595,"endTime":1864.859,"body":"All right, for all y'all, for"},{"startTime":1862.595,"endTime":1864.859,"body":"all y'all listening, for all"},{"startTime":1864.859,"endTime":1867.668,"body":"y'all on video, I'm doing this"},{"startTime":1864.859,"endTime":1867.668,"body":"for the people that are listening"},{"startTime":1868.65,"endTime":1869.495,"body":"That's my excuse."},{"startTime":1869.741,"endTime":1873.668,"body":"When you write an epic in the"},{"startTime":1869.741,"endTime":1873.668,"body":"backlog, that epic should be"},{"startTime":1873.668,"endTime":1875.986,"body":"encompass a business case, okay?"},{"startTime":1876.341,"endTime":1880.205,"body":"When you go to figure out, when you"},{"startTime":1876.341,"endTime":1880.205,"body":"go to figure out whether or not you"},{"startTime":1880.209,"endTime":1885.277,"body":"should do something to further that"},{"startTime":1880.209,"endTime":1885.277,"body":"business case, there should be ideas."},{"startTime":1886.314,"endTime":1892.559,"body":"And out of those ideas, you should have"},{"startTime":1886.314,"endTime":1892.559,"body":"ways to test, prove, disprove those ideas."},{"startTime":1893.35,"endTime":1897.277,"body":"I believe all of those tests"},{"startTime":1893.35,"endTime":1897.277,"body":"should be attached in some way,"},{"startTime":1897.277,"endTime":1901.395,"body":"shape, or form to the epic that"},{"startTime":1897.277,"endTime":1901.395,"body":"the stories of the team picks up."},{"startTime":1901.982,"endTime":1906.673,"body":"Are also tied to, so that the"},{"startTime":1901.982,"endTime":1906.673,"body":"team, if they care to go look,"},{"startTime":1907.355,"endTime":1912.291,"body":"can go back and review the product"},{"startTime":1907.355,"endTime":1912.291,"body":"manager's ideas that led them to"},{"startTime":1912.291,"endTime":1914.009,"body":"the work they're being asked to do."},{"startTime":1914.755,"endTime":1917.373,"body":"This is ideal world type of solution."},{"startTime":1917.427,"endTime":1920.455,"body":"I, I do have to admit, but"},{"startTime":1917.427,"endTime":1920.455,"body":"that's kind of the way I feel."},{"startTime":1920.455,"endTime":1923.836,"body":"That's, that's, that's the main reason"},{"startTime":1920.455,"endTime":1923.836,"body":"I feel though, like, Hey, don't tell me"},{"startTime":1923.882,"endTime":1927.477,"body":"I should store my ideas somewhere else"},{"startTime":1923.882,"endTime":1927.477,"body":"that's not transparent to the team."},{"startTime":1927.532,"endTime":1930.205,"body":"I'd rather store my ideas in"},{"startTime":1927.532,"endTime":1930.205,"body":"the same place the team does."},{"startTime":1930.205,"endTime":1934.241,"body":"Its work in the containers, in"},{"startTime":1930.205,"endTime":1934.241,"body":"the same containers actually,"},{"startTime":1934.814,"endTime":1935.932,"body":"that the team does its work."},{"startTime":1937.023,"endTime":1937.241,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1937.241,"endTime":1938.386,"body":"So I certainly agree with you."},{"startTime":1938.432,"endTime":1941.195,"body":"I don't agree with this as"},{"startTime":1938.432,"endTime":1941.195,"body":"being an anti-pain because the"},{"startTime":1941.195,"endTime":1945.486,"body":"ideas, , could be put in the, um,"},{"startTime":1941.195,"endTime":1945.486,"body":"backlog as a, as a repository."},{"startTime":1945.814,"endTime":1946.032,"body":"There's."},{"startTime":1946.755,"endTime":1950.027,"body":"a benefit to doing that, even if"},{"startTime":1946.755,"endTime":1950.027,"body":"those ideas will never come to light."},{"startTime":1950.055,"endTime":1954.2,"body":"The benefit is if the team can see those"},{"startTime":1950.055,"endTime":1954.2,"body":"ideas, it may influence the direction,"},{"startTime":1954.2,"endTime":1957.991,"body":"the technical direction they're taking"},{"startTime":1954.2,"endTime":1957.991,"body":"now in order to make those things happen."},{"startTime":1958.427,"endTime":1961.291,"body":"that doesn't mean that that idea"},{"startTime":1958.427,"endTime":1961.291,"body":"is gonna be fulfilled necessarily,"},{"startTime":1961.291,"endTime":1962.545,"body":"but a conversation could happen."},{"startTime":1962.545,"endTime":1966.605,"body":"So architectural direction may pivot"},{"startTime":1962.545,"endTime":1966.605,"body":"based on what's coming downstream."},{"startTime":1966.605,"endTime":1967.859,"body":"So that's a big benefit there."},{"startTime":1968.25,"endTime":1971.023,"body":"So the other thing I wanna say about"},{"startTime":1968.25,"endTime":1971.023,"body":"this is, why is this an anti-pain?"},{"startTime":1971.114,"endTime":1973.895,"body":"Put ideas in your backlog,"},{"startTime":1971.114,"endTime":1973.895,"body":"use a prefix of idea."},{"startTime":1974.168,"endTime":1978.614,"body":"I, you know, I, for a large program,"},{"startTime":1974.168,"endTime":1978.614,"body":"you could use tools, other tools to, to"},{"startTime":1978.614,"endTime":1980.407,"body":"solicit ideas directly from customers."},{"startTime":1980.416,"endTime":1984.834,"body":"I like to use aha, I use Aha to, to"},{"startTime":1980.416,"endTime":1984.834,"body":"basically extend it out as a portal to the"},{"startTime":1985.189,"endTime":1986.443,"body":"customers where they can put their ideas."},{"startTime":1986.47,"endTime":1990.455,"body":"They come in and they sit there"},{"startTime":1986.47,"endTime":1990.455,"body":"until a product manager reviews them"},{"startTime":1990.509,"endTime":1991.9,"body":"and decides what's worth pursuing."},{"startTime":1991.9,"endTime":1994.464,"body":"But that doesn't make it in the"},{"startTime":1991.9,"endTime":1994.464,"body":"backlog in that scenario necessarily."},{"startTime":1994.655,"endTime":1997.055,"body":"However, if you don't have that,"},{"startTime":1994.655,"endTime":1997.055,"body":"you just have a system, an LM"},{"startTime":1997.059,"endTime":1998.119,"body":"tool that just has a backlog."},{"startTime":1998.119,"endTime":1999.673,"body":"There's nothing wrong"},{"startTime":1998.119,"endTime":1999.673,"body":"with keeping them there."},{"startTime":1999.673,"endTime":1999.973,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2000.0,"endTime":2002.864,"body":"If you've got 50 ideas in"},{"startTime":2000.0,"endTime":2002.864,"body":"your backlog, That doesn't"},{"startTime":2002.864,"endTime":2004.037,"body":"mean your backlog is too deep."},{"startTime":2004.037,"endTime":2005.264,"body":"That's not your working backlog."},{"startTime":2005.264,"endTime":2006.491,"body":"That is just a repo Yeah."},{"startTime":2006.491,"endTime":2007.009,"body":"At that point."},{"startTime":2007.046,"endTime":2007.264,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2007.264,"endTime":2007.265,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2007.269,"endTime":2010.314,"body":"Which is why I'm fond of putting"},{"startTime":2007.269,"endTime":2010.314,"body":"that demarcation line in which"},{"startTime":2010.314,"endTime":2011.569,"body":"most ALM  tools don't let you."},{"startTime":2011.869,"endTime":2015.059,"body":"So I create a work item that just"},{"startTime":2011.869,"endTime":2015.059,"body":"has a bunch of dashes or equal sign.."},{"startTime":2015.159,"endTime":2016.441,"body":"Uh, and manually move that around."},{"startTime":2016.686,"endTime":2021.186,"body":"This item is kind of sad that"},{"startTime":2016.686,"endTime":2021.186,"body":"it is lagging so much behind"},{"startTime":2021.213,"endTime":2022.358,"body":"the way that people work."},{"startTime":2022.468,"endTime":2026.64,"body":"The issue here is where is the"},{"startTime":2022.468,"endTime":2026.64,"body":"product manager or really anybody"},{"startTime":2026.64,"endTime":2028.9,"body":"who did discovery work in a sprint?"},{"startTime":2029.044,"endTime":2030.598,"body":"Where are they gonna put their learnings?"},{"startTime":2030.866,"endTime":2033.494,"body":"Into the system, where are they"},{"startTime":2030.866,"endTime":2033.494,"body":"gonna put their notes and if you're"},{"startTime":2033.494,"endTime":2037.266,"body":"saying them, putting them in the"},{"startTime":2033.494,"endTime":2037.266,"body":"product backlog is an antipattern."},{"startTime":2037.321,"endTime":2039.721,"body":"Is that really the best message"},{"startTime":2037.321,"endTime":2039.721,"body":"that you're putting out?"},{"startTime":2039.726,"endTime":2043.648,"body":"Because you're, you're saying we"},{"startTime":2039.726,"endTime":2043.648,"body":"want you to keep your ideas and"},{"startTime":2043.648,"endTime":2048.23,"body":"learnings in another system that's"},{"startTime":2043.648,"endTime":2048.23,"body":"not connected to the system that we"},{"startTime":2048.23,"endTime":2050.003,"body":"may or may not be implementing things."},{"startTime":2050.003,"endTime":2050.221,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2050.221,"endTime":2051.939,"body":"I, I don't, I don't think"},{"startTime":2050.221,"endTime":2051.939,"body":"this is a great one."},{"startTime":2052.021,"endTime":2052.976,"body":"I don't think this is a great one at all."},{"startTime":2053.021,"endTime":2053.512,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":2053.821,"endTime":2055.212,"body":"I have a lot more ideas than this one."},{"startTime":2055.303,"endTime":2056.721,"body":"You could be opening submissions."},{"startTime":2056.726,"endTime":2058.003,"body":"You could be ranking submissions."},{"startTime":2058.194,"endTime":2059.639,"body":"You could be doing a lot in the system."},{"startTime":2059.639,"endTime":2060.321,"body":"I, I understand."},{"startTime":2061.303,"endTime":2063.394,"body":"specific ALM tools are not"},{"startTime":2061.303,"endTime":2063.394,"body":"great at handling this."},{"startTime":2063.439,"endTime":2065.736,"body":"In that regard, I'm on board with this."},{"startTime":2065.848,"endTime":2067.894,"body":"But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it"},{"startTime":2068.07,"endTime":2068.37,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2068.37,"endTime":2068.833,"body":"I agreed."},{"startTime":2068.909,"endTime":2072.837,"body":"Number 10, part-time po the"},{"startTime":2068.909,"endTime":2072.837,"body":"product owner is not working"},{"startTime":2072.837,"endTime":2074.691,"body":"daily on the product backlog."},{"startTime":2074.791,"endTime":2076.7,"body":"So if they're not working"},{"startTime":2074.791,"endTime":2076.7,"body":"daily on the product backlog,"},{"startTime":2077.0,"endTime":2078.173,"body":"what are they doing daily?"},{"startTime":2078.446,"endTime":2079.182,"body":"That's my question."},{"startTime":2079.318,"endTime":2080.164,"body":"Working their other job."},{"startTime":2080.673,"endTime":2081.182,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2081.255,"endTime":2082.291,"body":"Cuz they have five teams."},{"startTime":2082.291,"endTime":2082.482,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2082.591,"endTime":2082.864,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2082.864,"endTime":2084.828,"body":"Look, yeah, I, I'll relent"},{"startTime":2082.864,"endTime":2084.828,"body":"and say if they're not working"},{"startTime":2084.828,"endTime":2085.809,"body":"on the backlog, you're right."},{"startTime":2086.082,"endTime":2088.346,"body":"When they're talking to customers"},{"startTime":2086.082,"endTime":2088.346,"body":"because that's why they're"},{"startTime":2088.346,"endTime":2089.3,"body":"not working on the backlog."},{"startTime":2089.328,"endTime":2090.009,"body":"Okay, great."},{"startTime":2090.391,"endTime":2091.264,"body":"I'm fine with that."},{"startTime":2091.291,"endTime":2091.437,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2091.437,"endTime":2094.973,"body":"But I know they're not talking to"},{"startTime":2091.437,"endTime":2094.973,"body":"customers 24 7 or seven hours a day."},{"startTime":2095.0,"endTime":2095.509,"body":"Eight hours a day."},{"startTime":2095.537,"endTime":2097.728,"body":"I mean, I know that, I"},{"startTime":2095.537,"endTime":2097.728,"body":"mean, look, I've been with."},{"startTime":2098.178,"endTime":2101.378,"body":"Product owners who've been three"},{"startTime":2098.178,"endTime":2101.378,"body":"different teams, that three different"},{"startTime":2101.378,"endTime":2105.605,"body":"teams, three different customer bases,"},{"startTime":2101.378,"endTime":2105.605,"body":"three different pools of stakeholders,"},{"startTime":2105.929,"endTime":2108.874,"body":"the only person seriously impacted"},{"startTime":2105.929,"endTime":2108.874,"body":"is the product person, cuz they"},{"startTime":2108.879,"endTime":2110.265,"body":"have actual different teams."},{"startTime":2110.326,"endTime":2111.662,"body":"So I got on one hand."},{"startTime":2111.662,"endTime":2113.98,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I, I, I understand"},{"startTime":2111.662,"endTime":2113.98,"body":"what you're saying, but on the other"},{"startTime":2113.985,"endTime":2117.935,"body":"hand, like a lot of companies are"},{"startTime":2113.985,"endTime":2117.935,"body":"like this, where they, they divide"},{"startTime":2117.939,"endTime":2121.289,"body":"they're product person and say,"},{"startTime":2117.939,"endTime":2121.289,"body":"oh, you can do 25% with this team."},{"startTime":2121.589,"endTime":2124.371,"body":"You, you're just kind of keeping them"},{"startTime":2121.589,"endTime":2124.371,"body":"on track and then moving on to the team."},{"startTime":2124.371,"endTime":2124.726,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2125.053,"endTime":2125.489,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2125.489,"endTime":2126.28,"body":"That's, that's all you're doing."},{"startTime":2126.335,"endTime":2130.589,"body":"That's like saying, look, you go to a, a"},{"startTime":2126.335,"endTime":2130.589,"body":"large supermarket and have one person in"},{"startTime":2130.589,"endTime":2134.206,"body":"charge of the bakery and also in charge"},{"startTime":2130.589,"endTime":2134.206,"body":"of the, , the, the seafood section."},{"startTime":2134.211,"endTime":2135.27,"body":"And come on."},{"startTime":2135.27,"endTime":2135.843,"body":"It doesn't work."},{"startTime":2136.033,"endTime":2136.852,"body":"We know it doesn't work."},{"startTime":2136.856,"endTime":2139.479,"body":"It's a fallacy . so part-time POs Yeah."},{"startTime":2139.479,"endTime":2139.915,"body":"Don't do it."},{"startTime":2140.933,"endTime":2141.397,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":2141.552,"endTime":2141.988,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":2141.993,"endTime":2146.87,"body":"We didn't really put, put any . There"},{"startTime":2141.993,"endTime":2146.87,"body":"wasn't any like, gray area with that one."},{"startTime":2146.874,"endTime":2148.479,"body":"It was like, yeah,"},{"startTime":2146.874,"endTime":2148.479,"body":"don't, don't do this one."},{"startTime":2148.533,"endTime":2149.188,"body":"This one's silly."},{"startTime":2149.243,"endTime":2149.815,"body":"Don't do this one."},{"startTime":2151.261,"endTime":2151.548,"body":". All right."},{"startTime":2151.585,"endTime":2155.646,"body":"Copy/Paste PO The product owner"},{"startTime":2151.585,"endTime":2155.646,"body":"creates product backlog items by"},{"startTime":2155.646,"endTime":2160.118,"body":"breaking down requirement documents"},{"startTime":2155.646,"endTime":2160.118,"body":"from stakeholders into smaller chunks."},{"startTime":2160.289,"endTime":2162.034,"body":"I feel personally attacked by this one."},{"startTime":2163.363,"endTime":2165.563,"body":"I think this is a great"},{"startTime":2163.363,"endTime":2165.563,"body":"article, first of all."},{"startTime":2165.59,"endTime":2165.917,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2165.999,"endTime":2166.217,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2166.272,"endTime":2170.172,"body":"But second of all, whoever wrote"},{"startTime":2166.272,"endTime":2170.172,"body":"it, like they had a big problem and"},{"startTime":2170.172,"endTime":2172.163,"body":"it was like their specific problem."},{"startTime":2172.417,"endTime":2174.535,"body":"I guess you could apply a feature"},{"startTime":2172.417,"endTime":2174.535,"body":"factory to this one as well."},{"startTime":2174.699,"endTime":2174.999,"body":"You could, could, yeah."},{"startTime":2175.053,"endTime":2177.89,"body":"A product owner who is basically"},{"startTime":2175.053,"endTime":2177.89,"body":"just a feature factory product owner."},{"startTime":2178.053,"endTime":2180.917,"body":"They do whatever they're told in"},{"startTime":2178.053,"endTime":2180.917,"body":"the order in which they're told and"},{"startTime":2180.917,"endTime":2184.108,"body":"they really don't push back and they"},{"startTime":2180.917,"endTime":2184.108,"body":"really don't know anything deeper."},{"startTime":2184.108,"endTime":2184.408,"body":"Whatever."},{"startTime":2184.408,"endTime":2185.717,"body":"That, that could be this one as well."},{"startTime":2186.153,"endTime":2188.826,"body":"I was gonna push back on this one to be"},{"startTime":2186.153,"endTime":2188.826,"body":"like, you, you're really being weird."},{"startTime":2188.876,"endTime":2190.676,"body":"I think this warrant's being pushed back."},{"startTime":2190.922,"endTime":2194.05,"body":"So part of me wants to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":2190.922,"endTime":2194.05,"body":"you know, if the customer's got"},{"startTime":2194.054,"endTime":2196.267,"body":"some decent stuff there, I'm"},{"startTime":2194.054,"endTime":2196.267,"body":"gonna pick and choose from there."},{"startTime":2196.267,"endTime":2196.813,"body":"Copy paste."},{"startTime":2196.813,"endTime":2197.44,"body":"I'm fine with that."},{"startTime":2197.44,"endTime":2197.631,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2197.822,"endTime":2201.176,"body":"I'm not gonna take everything they've"},{"startTime":2197.822,"endTime":2201.176,"body":"got or just do the copy paste."},{"startTime":2201.181,"endTime":2203.74,"body":"I'm gonna do a little bit more than"},{"startTime":2201.181,"endTime":2203.74,"body":"that, actually, quite a bit more"},{"startTime":2203.744,"endTime":2206.822,"body":"than that . But I wanna maximize"},{"startTime":2203.744,"endTime":2206.822,"body":"the matter of work not done right."},{"startTime":2206.876,"endTime":2209.631,"body":"Why would I redraw stuff that"},{"startTime":2206.876,"endTime":2209.631,"body":"they've got or rewrite stuff"},{"startTime":2209.631,"endTime":2211.403,"body":"that they've got in its entirety."},{"startTime":2211.403,"endTime":2213.64,"body":"I mean, I may want to"},{"startTime":2211.403,"endTime":2213.64,"body":"add clarity, et cetera."},{"startTime":2213.694,"endTime":2214.24,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":2214.267,"endTime":2214.458,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2214.894,"endTime":2216.34,"body":"So this is kind of weird, a little bit."},{"startTime":2216.422,"endTime":2217.758,"body":"Uh, copy paste, po."},{"startTime":2217.935,"endTime":2221.238,"body":"It, it is weird, like I said, I think"},{"startTime":2217.935,"endTime":2221.238,"body":"it's a unique situation to whoever"},{"startTime":2221.243,"endTime":2225.297,"body":"wrote the article about, uh, I have"},{"startTime":2221.243,"endTime":2225.297,"body":"a PO who's just a project manager in"},{"startTime":2225.297,"endTime":2230.534,"body":"disguise and they just cut parts of the"},{"startTime":2225.297,"endTime":2230.534,"body":"PRD out and paste into stories in Jira"},{"startTime":2230.806,"endTime":2233.588,"body":"well, one of the things that leads to"},{"startTime":2230.806,"endTime":2233.588,"body":"this though is having part-time pos,"},{"startTime":2233.588,"endTime":2235.661,"body":"cause the poor person doesn't have"},{"startTime":2233.588,"endTime":2235.661,"body":"enough time, so all they're doing"},{"startTime":2235.661,"endTime":2237.106,"body":"is copy, pacing, calling it done."},{"startTime":2237.111,"endTime":2237.706,"body":"That is true."},{"startTime":2237.711,"endTime":2237.952,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2237.997,"endTime":2241.834,"body":"Number 12, the dominant po"},{"startTime":2237.997,"endTime":2241.834,"body":"I'm putting the, the, in the"},{"startTime":2241.834,"endTime":2242.897,"body":"front of it because it's fun."},{"startTime":2243.284,"endTime":2246.824,"body":", the dominant po the product owner"},{"startTime":2243.284,"endTime":2246.824,"body":"creates product backlog items"},{"startTime":2246.829,"endTime":2250.97,"body":"by providing not just the why,"},{"startTime":2246.829,"endTime":2250.97,"body":"but also the how and the what."},{"startTime":2251.345,"endTime":2251.864,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":2252.136,"endTime":2256.709,"body":"So, Om, all the times we talk about,"},{"startTime":2252.136,"endTime":2256.709,"body":"product people, , that come from the"},{"startTime":2256.709,"endTime":2258.318,"body":"business that have no technical skill."},{"startTime":2258.682,"endTime":2261.318,"body":", this is the reverse of"},{"startTime":2258.682,"endTime":2261.318,"body":"that is the product."},{"startTime":2261.491,"endTime":2265.236,"body":"People who do have technical skill"},{"startTime":2261.491,"endTime":2265.236,"body":"and now are telling you not only"},{"startTime":2265.241,"endTime":2266.873,"body":"what to build, but how to build it."},{"startTime":2267.5,"endTime":2269.218,"body":"That's, uh, the, the worst of both world."},{"startTime":2269.245,"endTime":2273.745,"body":"The worst, the absolute worst of the"},{"startTime":2269.245,"endTime":2273.745,"body":"worst of both worlds will be product"},{"startTime":2273.745,"endTime":2276.336,"body":"owners who have a technical background."},{"startTime":2276.609,"endTime":2279.445,"body":"Of some years ago, and they'll"},{"startTime":2276.609,"endTime":2279.445,"body":"say, yeah, this is easy."},{"startTime":2279.527,"endTime":2280.454,"body":"You see this is all right."},{"startTime":2280.454,"endTime":2281.3,"body":"cool little program."},{"startTime":2281.3,"endTime":2281.7,"body":"And it's one."},{"startTime":2281.764,"endTime":2282.227,"body":"It's a one."},{"startTime":2282.227,"endTime":2282.854,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2282.854,"endTime":2284.518,"body":"We could do this with kicks and DB2."},{"startTime":2284.582,"endTime":2285.945,"body":"This is extremely dangerous."},{"startTime":2285.95,"endTime":2289.364,"body":"So first of all, going back to"},{"startTime":2285.95,"endTime":2289.364,"body":"the statement though, the product"},{"startTime":2289.364,"endTime":2294.709,"body":"owner creates product backlog items"},{"startTime":2289.364,"endTime":2294.709,"body":"by providing not just the why,"},{"startTime":2294.927,"endTime":2296.673,"body":"but also the how and the what."},{"startTime":2296.677,"endTime":2297.845,"body":"So I wanna pick that apart a bit."},{"startTime":2297.954,"endTime":2298.173,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2298.364,"endTime":2301.526,"body":"I'm okay with the product owner"},{"startTime":2298.364,"endTime":2301.526,"body":"providing the why plus the what?"},{"startTime":2301.909,"endTime":2305.045,"body":"I'm not okay with the product"},{"startTime":2301.909,"endTime":2305.045,"body":"and providing the how whatsoever."},{"startTime":2305.1,"endTime":2309.191,"body":"Because if they just say the why, we"},{"startTime":2305.1,"endTime":2309.191,"body":"wanna increase market share by mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2309.559,"endTime":2310.936,"body":", you know, 30% that that's."},{"startTime":2311.454,"endTime":2311.809,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2311.809,"endTime":2313.473,"body":"That is the, that is the what I suppose."},{"startTime":2313.854,"endTime":2315.245,"body":"What, what do we wanna do, but why?"},{"startTime":2315.545,"endTime":2315.873,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2316.227,"endTime":2318.054,"body":"Uh, so what and the why."},{"startTime":2318.054,"endTime":2320.018,"body":"I'm okay with, I'm not"},{"startTime":2318.054,"endTime":2320.018,"body":"okay with the, the how."},{"startTime":2320.073,"endTime":2320.264,"body":"All right,"},{"startTime":2320.354,"endTime":2323.491,"body":"before we, before we get into this one,"},{"startTime":2320.354,"endTime":2323.491,"body":"let me, let me look at the last one."},{"startTime":2323.545,"endTime":2324.582,"body":"There's only 13 in here."},{"startTime":2324.609,"endTime":2324.718,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2324.718,"endTime":2324.773,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2324.8,"endTime":2328.127,"body":"So thir number 13 is"},{"startTime":2324.8,"endTime":2328.127,"body":"the, I know-it-all po."},{"startTime":2328.482,"endTime":2331.864,"body":"The product owner does not involve"},{"startTime":2328.482,"endTime":2331.864,"body":"stakeholders, teammates, or subject"},{"startTime":2331.864,"endTime":2333.909,"body":"matter experts in the refinement process."},{"startTime":2334.482,"endTime":2339.782,"body":"I want to do this one and then go back"},{"startTime":2334.482,"endTime":2339.782,"body":"to the dominant po because I, I feel"},{"startTime":2339.782,"endTime":2343.586,"body":"the know-it-all is, an easier, faster"},{"startTime":2339.782,"endTime":2343.586,"body":"conversation than the previous one."},{"startTime":2343.723,"endTime":2344.895,"body":"It is, it certainly is."},{"startTime":2345.041,"endTime":2348.55,"body":"These are the OPOs, O P P O I call"},{"startTime":2345.041,"endTime":2348.55,"body":"those one person's poor opinion."},{"startTime":2348.923,"endTime":2350.504,"body":"This person is the know-all."},{"startTime":2350.559,"endTime":2353.041,"body":"They think they know, but"},{"startTime":2350.559,"endTime":2353.041,"body":"they don't know necessarily."},{"startTime":2353.095,"endTime":2353.177,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2353.177,"endTime":2354.023,"body":"Typically they don't know."},{"startTime":2354.05,"endTime":2354.295,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2354.35,"endTime":2355.114,"body":"They think they know."},{"startTime":2355.332,"endTime":2357.214,"body":"So this person comes in and"},{"startTime":2355.332,"endTime":2357.214,"body":"says, here is what we need."},{"startTime":2357.241,"endTime":2358.25,"body":"I'm gonna tell you what we need to do."},{"startTime":2358.277,"endTime":2358.795,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2358.932,"endTime":2359.286,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2359.304,"endTime":2359.45,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2359.559,"endTime":2363.923,"body":"Um, they probably, I'm willing to bet"},{"startTime":2359.559,"endTime":2363.923,"body":"they've probably never talked to the"},{"startTime":2363.923,"endTime":2365.423,"body":"customer because they know everything."},{"startTime":2365.504,"endTime":2365.804,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":2365.941,"endTime":2367.114,"body":"I don't need to talk to the customers."},{"startTime":2367.114,"endTime":2367.823,"body":"I know what they want."},{"startTime":2367.932,"endTime":2372.377,"body":"So with, with people like that is,"},{"startTime":2367.932,"endTime":2372.377,"body":"I guess the articles saying that"},{"startTime":2372.377,"endTime":2374.832,"body":"that's an anti-pain, they don't"},{"startTime":2372.377,"endTime":2374.832,"body":"involve stakeholders, et cetera."},{"startTime":2374.941,"endTime":2375.023,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2375.023,"endTime":2375.132,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2375.159,"endTime":2376.441,"body":"Fully agree on this one."},{"startTime":2376.441,"endTime":2376.686,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2376.691,"endTime":2377.541,"body":"It is an antipattern."},{"startTime":2377.559,"endTime":2377.723,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2378.132,"endTime":2381.65,"body":"And I think it's difficult for the"},{"startTime":2378.132,"endTime":2381.65,"body":"teams because typically these people"},{"startTime":2381.65,"endTime":2385.654,"body":"tend to be what the previous, , item"},{"startTime":2381.65,"endTime":2385.654,"body":"said, you know, the dominant person."},{"startTime":2385.654,"endTime":2386.164,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2386.254,"endTime":2389.145,"body":"They tend to be dominant where the teams"},{"startTime":2386.254,"endTime":2389.145,"body":"don't feel comfortable pushing back."},{"startTime":2389.191,"endTime":2392.491,"body":"Because their opinions are so weighty."},{"startTime":2392.491,"endTime":2395.191,"body":"They come across as def"},{"startTime":2392.491,"endTime":2395.191,"body":"facto the Correct Yeah."},{"startTime":2395.245,"endTime":2395.873,"body":"Things to do."},{"startTime":2395.873,"endTime":2399.145,"body":"Like, well, I'll, I mean, I mean"},{"startTime":2395.873,"endTime":2399.145,"body":"there is that, but also there, there"},{"startTime":2399.145,"endTime":2401.191,"body":"is the, used car,  oh yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2401.195,"endTime":2403.527,"body":"There's a used car example of"},{"startTime":2401.195,"endTime":2403.527,"body":"like, if I roll into the used car"},{"startTime":2403.527,"endTime":2407.564,"body":"lot and I just start like, Hey,"},{"startTime":2403.527,"endTime":2407.564,"body":"how much is that $4,000 car worth?"},{"startTime":2407.782,"endTime":2411.682,"body":"And like I, I've effectively set the"},{"startTime":2407.782,"endTime":2411.682,"body":"value, I've effectively se anchored"},{"startTime":2411.682,"endTime":2415.327,"body":"the value in my first, like that's"},{"startTime":2411.682,"endTime":2415.327,"body":"the way, like when I read this, that's"},{"startTime":2415.327,"endTime":2418.627,"body":"the PO coming in the room to say"},{"startTime":2415.327,"endTime":2418.627,"body":"like, we're just adding a field to a"},{"startTime":2419.364,"endTime":2422.745,"body":"form on a, an HTML website, whatever."},{"startTime":2423.173,"endTime":2424.591,"body":"That's a one that's that's a one."},{"startTime":2424.591,"endTime":2425.245,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2425.25,"endTime":2425.409,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2425.414,"endTime":2427.891,"body":"That's a one that should take a,"},{"startTime":2425.414,"endTime":2427.891,"body":"that should take not even half a day."},{"startTime":2427.891,"endTime":2428.245,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2428.573,"endTime":2429.609,"body":"Couple hours, two hours."},{"startTime":2429.614,"endTime":2429.718,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2430.154,"endTime":2431.082,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2431.086,"endTime":2431.327,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2431.818,"endTime":2436.291,"body":"Like, like how much discussion can you"},{"startTime":2431.818,"endTime":2436.291,"body":"invite when you have one person already"},{"startTime":2436.754,"endTime":2440.491,"body":"who's kicking off the conversation"},{"startTime":2436.754,"endTime":2440.491,"body":"already anchoring the conversation"},{"startTime":2440.839,"endTime":2444.227,"body":"So basically, whatever you are gonna"},{"startTime":2440.839,"endTime":2444.227,"body":"come up with you know, you're gonna be"},{"startTime":2444.282,"endTime":2445.918,"body":"automatically challenging the person."},{"startTime":2446.164,"endTime":2448.664,"body":"So there's a whole bunch of like"},{"startTime":2446.164,"endTime":2448.664,"body":"psychological tricks happening"},{"startTime":2448.664,"endTime":2451.173,"body":"right now of like, do I really"},{"startTime":2448.664,"endTime":2451.173,"body":"want to, like, do I need this?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2451.177,"endTime":2455.973,"body":"30 or"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2451.177,"endTime":2455.973,"body":"9:45 AM in the morning on Monday morning?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2456.082,"endTime":2458.645,"body":"Do I really need to get"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2456.082,"endTime":2458.645,"body":"straight in a fight at 9 45 A?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2458.809,"endTime":2460.491,"body":"Om,, I'd rather just drink my coffee."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2460.818,"endTime":2463.709,"body":". My, my, my second coffee, that's"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2460.818,"endTime":2463.709,"body":"my decaf for the day because I"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2463.709,"endTime":2465.154,"body":"already had my full strength coffee."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2465.718,"endTime":2467.654,"body":"Maybe this is my last"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2465.718,"endTime":2467.654,"body":"meeting in the morning."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2467.791,"endTime":2470.191,"body":"Then I don't need to have any more"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2467.791,"endTime":2470.191,"body":"meetings until the end of the day."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2470.327,"endTime":2471.445,"body":"Like, do I really need to fight?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2471.45,"endTime":2472.973,"body":"Do I really need to get"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2471.45,"endTime":2472.973,"body":"in this fight right now?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2472.977,"endTime":2473.873,"body":"You, you really don't."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2473.9,"endTime":2476.054,"body":"I mean, you need to, I really need,"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2473.9,"endTime":2476.054,"body":"I don't, you need to end this meeting"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2476.054,"endTime":2479.327,"body":"early by saying, well, you seem to know"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2476.054,"endTime":2479.327,"body":"what to, what to do and how to do it."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2479.382,"endTime":2479.573,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2479.573,"endTime":2482.564,"body":"So you do it sounds like That's"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2479.573,"endTime":2482.564,"body":"what I usually advise the team say."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2482.564,"endTime":2483.2,"body":"Sounds like a a three."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2483.2,"endTime":2484.209,"body":"It sounds like a three."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2484.214,"endTime":2485.327,"body":"You said it's a three."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2485.327,"endTime":2486.282,"body":"I think it's a three."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2486.282,"endTime":2487.454,"body":"Because you said it's a three."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2487.454,"endTime":2488.518,"body":"I'm not gonna fight about it."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2488.682,"endTime":2491.027,"body":"We'll get outta here and at the"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2488.682,"endTime":2491.027,"body":"end of the sprint if it ended up"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2491.027,"endTime":2492.164,"body":"being an eight and not a three."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2493.154,"endTime":2493.809,"body":"I, I don't know."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2493.809,"endTime":2494.736,"body":"Like, who pays for that?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2494.827,"endTime":2497.482,"body":"Hey, if you think you know what to"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2494.827,"endTime":2497.482,"body":"do and how to do it, go ahead, full."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2497.5,"endTime":2498.127,"body":"Power to you."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2498.736,"endTime":2500.864,"body":"? We'll just assign that item to you, Ms."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2500.864,"endTime":2500.918,"body":"PO."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2500.918,"endTime":2501.7,"body":"Mr."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2501.7,"endTime":2501.873,"body":"PO."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2501.927,"endTime":2506.1,"body":"the problem with this is the person"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2501.927,"endTime":2506.1,"body":"who's usually throwing out the numbers"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2506.427,"endTime":2511.309,"body":"is almost never the person who becomes"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2506.427,"endTime":2511.309,"body":"responsible when that number is not hit."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2511.4,"endTime":2511.891,"body":"Very true."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2512.145,"endTime":2512.773,"body":"That was 13."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2512.818,"endTime":2513.5,"body":"cut back one more time."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2513.5,"endTime":2516.718,"body":"It was the dominant po product"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2513.5,"endTime":2516.718,"body":"owner creates product backlog items"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2516.718,"endTime":2520.127,"body":"by providing not just the why,"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2516.718,"endTime":2520.127,"body":"but also the how and the what."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2520.5,"endTime":2524.009,"body":"So I had a bone to pick with this"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2520.5,"endTime":2524.009,"body":"one, which is, not just providing the"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2524.014,"endTime":2525.373,"body":"why, but also the how and the what."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2525.377,"endTime":2525.591,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2525.591,"endTime":2529.6,"body":"So let's, let's pretend that I"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2525.591,"endTime":2529.6,"body":"wrote this for a second, just"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2529.6,"endTime":2530.8,"body":"for the purpose of dissecting it."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2531.264,"endTime":2534.673,"body":"Product owner creates product backlog"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2531.264,"endTime":2534.673,"body":"items by providing not just the"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2534.673,"endTime":2536.854,"body":"why and the what, but also the how."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2537.045,"endTime":2539.582,"body":"? I'm gonna, I'll reword it to"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2537.045,"endTime":2539.582,"body":"say it like that, because."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2540.027,"endTime":2542.291,"body":"The business brings the"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2540.027,"endTime":2542.291,"body":"why to the product owner."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2542.318,"endTime":2545.509,"body":"If there's no, why, there's no"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2542.318,"endTime":2545.509,"body":"business strategy, and y'all"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2545.509,"endTime":2546.791,"body":"should be asking other questions."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2546.791,"endTime":2549.218,"body":"If there's no business strategy"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2546.791,"endTime":2549.218,"body":"at the place you're working"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2549.218,"endTime":2550.964,"body":"at right now, that's my psa."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2550.964,"endTime":2551.318,"body":"Amen?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2551.318,"endTime":2551.973,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2552.136,"endTime":2554.209,"body":"So let's talk about the product"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2552.136,"endTime":2554.209,"body":"owner bringing the how for a second."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2554.214,"endTime":2556.691,"body":"Cause this is the, this is the"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2554.214,"endTime":2556.691,"body":"part where I want to get into."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2557.673,"endTime":2561.0,"body":"So the product owner, generally speaking,"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2557.673,"endTime":2561.0,"body":"shouldn't be, shouldn't be telling"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2561.0,"endTime":2562.145,"body":"the team how to implement things."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2562.145,"endTime":2563.4,"body":"I think we can both agree on that."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2563.564,"endTime":2563.945,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2564.364,"endTime":2570.582,"body":"I think where we can start dividing where"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2564.364,"endTime":2570.582,"body":"we agree is in the case where you have a"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2570.582,"endTime":2574.618,"body":"development team that is being asked to"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2570.582,"endTime":2574.618,"body":"do things that they've never done before."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2574.809,"endTime":2577.823,"body":"Like, let's say for example, you have"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2574.809,"endTime":2577.823,"body":"a development team that only ever"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2577.823,"endTime":2581.177,"body":"worked on backend systems and now a"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2577.823,"endTime":2581.177,"body":"new product manager comes in and a"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2581.177,"endTime":2583.877,"body":"new, like, maybe they're trying to"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2581.177,"endTime":2583.877,"body":"sell to a new client or whatever, and"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2583.882,"endTime":2587.804,"body":"they're gonna ask the backend engineers"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2583.882,"endTime":2587.804,"body":"to say, Hey, we need a new website on"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2587.804,"endTime":2589.777,"body":"top of our applications that we have."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2590.304,"endTime":2591.723,"body":"And we've never done website development."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2591.723,"endTime":2595.295,"body":"So now you're asking a bunch of backend"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2591.723,"endTime":2595.295,"body":"devs to do front end development."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2596.423,"endTime":2600.439,"body":"The dominant po like I have things"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2596.423,"endTime":2600.439,"body":"that I want  a website to look like."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2600.55,"endTime":2603.818,"body":"maybe I have examples or I have, you"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2600.55,"endTime":2603.818,"body":"know, style sheets or maybe I have a"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2603.818,"endTime":2607.037,"body":"corporate website and I'm like, Hey, this"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2603.818,"endTime":2607.037,"body":"is a color scheme, this is a style sheet."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2607.037,"endTime":2610.364,"body":"This is the sizing and all that stuff"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2607.037,"endTime":2610.364,"body":"I want you, whatever you do to be"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2610.364,"endTime":2612.028,"body":"in line with the corporate website."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2612.355,"endTime":2614.973,"body":"So like, I'm laying down for"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2612.355,"endTime":2614.973,"body":"some very specific stuff that"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2615.018,"endTime":2618.946,"body":"someone might consider, oh, you're"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2615.018,"endTime":2618.946,"body":"telling me how to do things."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2618.95,"endTime":2619.373,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2619.373,"endTime":2620.664,"body":"I think that's still"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2619.373,"endTime":2620.664,"body":"the what, right there."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2620.664,"endTime":2623.8,"body":"There's, they're basically specifying"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2620.664,"endTime":2623.8,"body":"that you should abide by the branding,"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2624.182,"endTime":2625.791,"body":"rather than how you should do it."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2625.791,"endTime":2628.682,"body":"Some teams could get confused"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2625.791,"endTime":2628.682,"body":"with, with the what and the how."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2628.728,"endTime":2631.755,"body":"I'm sure it can happen, but to"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2628.728,"endTime":2631.755,"body":"me it's pretty clear, right?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2631.755,"endTime":2635.137,"body":"If you're saying, yeah, you need to really"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2631.755,"endTime":2635.137,"body":"be in line with the branding of these"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2635.141,"endTime":2636.828,"body":"other websites, that's still the what."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2636.909,"endTime":2641.364,"body":"That is not the how, sometimes what"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2636.909,"endTime":2641.364,"body":"happens is, , the product owner, a"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2641.364,"endTime":2647.391,"body":"weak product owner, is basically,"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2641.364,"endTime":2647.391,"body":"steamrolled by the likes of an architect."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2647.418,"endTime":2647.691,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2647.746,"endTime":2650.582,"body":"And the architect can now"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2647.746,"endTime":2650.582,"body":"fully get into the how, right?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2650.609,"endTime":2650.773,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2651.237,"endTime":2654.155,"body":"in that case, it's not as much"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2651.237,"endTime":2654.155,"body":"of a, a risk because they are"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2654.155,"endTime":2655.682,"body":"technically capable, hopefully."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2655.773,"endTime":2658.309,"body":"What I have seen is anecdote I"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2655.773,"endTime":2658.309,"body":"wanna share really quickly here."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2658.582,"endTime":2661.855,"body":"I did have a product person"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2658.582,"endTime":2661.855,"body":"who, uh, really wasn't all"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2661.855,"endTime":2665.573,"body":"that technical, but, could read"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2661.855,"endTime":2665.573,"body":"tables, ERDs and things like that."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2665.982,"endTime":2669.337,"body":"So they came in one day and said,"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2665.982,"endTime":2669.337,"body":"all we need is this field that"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2669.337,"endTime":2670.482,"body":"needs to be added over here."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2670.932,"endTime":2674.532,"body":"And didn't really specify what"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2670.932,"endTime":2674.532,"body":"it's gonna be used for, but"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2674.587,"endTime":2675.65,"body":"why need this field at it?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2675.732,"endTime":2675.978,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2676.441,"endTime":2678.759,"body":"And of course they do"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2676.441,"endTime":2678.759,"body":"some ego stroking, right?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2678.814,"endTime":2680.15,"body":"Oh, you're a great developer, Brian."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2680.178,"endTime":2681.487,"body":"You can have this knocked down in an hour."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2681.514,"endTime":2681.841,"body":"True."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2681.95,"endTime":2684.541,"body":"So of course the developer"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2681.95,"endTime":2684.541,"body":"does what they're asked."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2684.568,"endTime":2684.978,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2685.168,"endTime":2688.768,"body":"And um, and lo and behold, what"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2685.168,"endTime":2688.768,"body":"happened is they wanted to do some"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2688.768,"endTime":2690.35,"body":"searches by that field that he put in."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2690.405,"endTime":2693.678,"body":"Well, long story short, the whole"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2690.405,"endTime":2693.678,"body":"system ground to a halt cause"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2694.168,"endTime":2695.45,"body":"there was not an index field."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2695.832,"endTime":2700.168,"body":"So there's danger in being"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2695.832,"endTime":2700.168,"body":"just technical enough."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2700.196,"endTime":2700.441,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2700.468,"endTime":2701.287,"body":"You want a doorknob?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2701.291,"endTime":2702.487,"body":"Just tell me you want a doorknob?"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2702.514,"endTime":2702.568,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2702.568,"endTime":2703.623,"body":"Don't tell me you want a high tech."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2704.064,"endTime":2705.155,"body":"door opening device."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2705.646,"endTime":2705.918,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2705.964,"endTime":2708.118,"body":", table scans for life, like"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2705.964,"endTime":2708.118,"body":"you're talking to the wrong guy."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2708.537,"endTime":2711.646,"body":", like, like what you're talking about"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2708.537,"endTime":2711.646,"body":"kind of goes back to, item number one."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2711.891,"endTime":2712.982,"body":"Prioritization, but proxy."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2712.982,"endTime":2713.064,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2713.064,"endTime":2716.964,"body":"Like if you're, if you're product"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2713.064,"endTime":2716.964,"body":"owner slash product manager, the,"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2717.046,"endTime":2720.918,"body":"the, the person that we're kind of"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2717.046,"endTime":2720.918,"body":"targeting with this podcast, if they"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2720.918,"endTime":2724.709,"body":"are, abdicating their responsibility"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2720.918,"endTime":2724.709,"body":"off to, uh, some kind of architect."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2724.709,"endTime":2726.073,"body":"Yeah, I don't know a good way to say it."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2726.373,"endTime":2727.437,"body":"Then, yeah."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2727.437,"endTime":2729.509,"body":"Some of that is prioritization by proxy."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2729.591,"endTime":2732.209,"body":"There's a bunch of stuff that we're"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2729.591,"endTime":2732.209,"body":"not gonna get into on this particular"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2732.209,"endTime":2737.255,"body":"podcast about, feature development versus"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2732.209,"endTime":2737.255,"body":"infrastructure development versus platform"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2737.259,"endTime":2740.009,"body":"development versus a bunch of like all"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2737.259,"endTime":2740.009,"body":"the different things that, that will"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2740.009,"endTime":2742.055,"body":"come into a product's backlog over time."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2742.246,"endTime":2742.382,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2742.628,"endTime":2745.846,"body":"Like this, this is not really the podcast"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2742.628,"endTime":2745.846,"body":"to, to delineate them and talk about how,"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2745.846,"endTime":2747.237,"body":"how they balance and stuff like that."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2747.241,"endTime":2751.437,"body":"But if a product person is running your"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2747.241,"endTime":2751.437,"body":"backlog and the team is contributing"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2751.437,"endTime":2754.646,"body":"to your backlog refinement, like, I"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2751.437,"endTime":2754.646,"body":"don't know, a lot of these problems that"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2754.646,"endTime":2756.718,"body":"are here are pretty easily avoidable."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2756.874,"endTime":2759.411,"body":"You know, you're violating"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2756.874,"endTime":2759.411,"body":"some of these 13 things."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2759.438,"endTime":2762.784,"body":"if your product isn't really"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2759.438,"endTime":2762.784,"body":"satisfying the customer."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2763.311,"endTime":2763.829,"body":"You know that."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2763.829,"endTime":2766.884,"body":"So now you can go back and figure"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2763.829,"endTime":2766.884,"body":"out which one or ones of these you're"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2766.884,"endTime":2770.956,"body":"falling foul off, and then hopefully,"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2766.884,"endTime":2770.956,"body":"you know, you can remediate those."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2771.24,"endTime":2775.385,"body":"The note here to add is if you see"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2771.24,"endTime":2775.385,"body":"any of these things happening in"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2775.385,"endTime":2778.885,"body":"your work center, we gave you a few,"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2775.385,"endTime":2778.885,"body":"suggestions about getting around them"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2778.89,"endTime":2782.918,"body":"For example, if you have a project"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2778.89,"endTime":2782.918,"body":"manager or whatever, asking for 100% of"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2782.918,"endTime":2787.418,"body":"everything in your backlog in advance,"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2782.918,"endTime":2787.418,"body":"I mean, at least you now know that that"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2787.418,"endTime":2791.968,"body":"is an antipattern because again, the"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2787.418,"endTime":2791.968,"body":"backlog is supposed to be emergent based"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2791.968,"endTime":2797.013,"body":"on feedback from whoever you're showing"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2791.968,"endTime":2797.013,"body":"the items to as you're developing them."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2797.013,"endTime":2799.931,"body":"Indeed, in the just give you project"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2797.013,"endTime":2799.931,"body":"managers a hundred percent of the"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2799.931,"endTime":2801.84,"body":"next three sprints worth of a backlog."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2802.213,"endTime":2802.504,"body":". That's right."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2802.504,"endTime":2802.795,"body":"That's it."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2802.8,"endTime":2803.143,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2803.18,"endTime":2803.998,"body":"Oh, wouldn't go past that."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2803.998,"endTime":2804.489,"body":"I really wouldn't."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2804.652,"endTime":2807.38,"body":"Well, listen, let let us know what you"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2804.652,"endTime":2807.38,"body":"think about this topic and any other"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2807.38,"endTime":2809.016,"body":"topics you'd like us to delve into."},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2809.189,"endTime":2812.843,"body":", just comment below and smash"},{"speaker":"Like, at my refinement at at 9","startTime":2809.189,"endTime":2812.843,"body":"and subscribe that like button."}]}