{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.045,"endTime":3.072,"body":"Om and I had a discussion before we went"},{"startTime":0.045,"endTime":3.072,"body":"into this podcast we had a discussion"},{"startTime":3.072,"endTime":5.909,"body":"and the discussion basically went like"},{"startTime":3.072,"endTime":5.909,"body":"this, are we doing too many product?"},{"startTime":6.084,"endTime":7.733,"body":"management related podcasts."},{"startTime":8.224,"endTime":9.833,"body":"And Om said, I don't know, maybe."},{"startTime":9.996,"endTime":14.751,"body":"And then I said, if your scrum master"},{"startTime":9.996,"endTime":14.751,"body":"or agile coach is going to help you be a"},{"startTime":14.751,"endTime":19.194,"body":"better product owner on/to the team, to"},{"startTime":14.751,"endTime":19.194,"body":"the organization, whatever,  shouldn't"},{"startTime":19.194,"endTime":23.144,"body":"they have some level of expertise, some"},{"startTime":19.194,"endTime":23.144,"body":"level of understanding, knowledge yeah."},{"startTime":23.144,"endTime":24.317,"body":"Some, some knowledge, yeah."},{"startTime":24.535,"endTime":26.662,"body":"In this subject, and the subject was, Hey,"},{"startTime":26.662,"endTime":30.983,"body":"if you're having difficulty establishing"},{"startTime":26.662,"endTime":30.983,"body":"a good roadmap, it's probably because all"},{"startTime":30.983,"endTime":35.071,"body":"the things that come before the roadmap,"},{"startTime":30.983,"endTime":35.071,"body":"are, are like built on a mountain of sand."},{"startTime":35.38,"endTime":36.089,"body":"What do you mean, Brian?"},{"startTime":36.089,"endTime":36.635,"body":"All the things."},{"startTime":36.826,"endTime":40.917,"body":"your product roadmap comes"},{"startTime":36.826,"endTime":40.917,"body":"from your company's goals."},{"startTime":41.108,"endTime":45.871,"body":"The goals come from your your"},{"startTime":41.108,"endTime":45.871,"body":"company's strategy, and your strategy"},{"startTime":45.925,"endTime":50.928,"body":"is informed by the vision and the"},{"startTime":45.925,"endTime":50.928,"body":"mission with the mission being the, the"},{"startTime":50.928,"endTime":52.701,"body":"foundation of everything that's built."},{"startTime":53.219,"endTime":56.369,"body":"So how are you gonna build a roadmap"},{"startTime":53.219,"endTime":56.369,"body":"when your company has no goals?"},{"startTime":56.374,"endTime":56.751,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":56.824,"endTime":58.033,"body":". And why does your company have no goals?"},{"startTime":58.033,"endTime":60.051,"body":"Well, maybe your company doesn't"},{"startTime":58.033,"endTime":60.051,"body":"really have a solid strategy."},{"startTime":60.215,"endTime":61.933,"body":"Well, why doesn't your"},{"startTime":60.215,"endTime":61.933,"body":"company have a solid strategy?"},{"startTime":61.933,"endTime":64.087,"body":"And we, and we work backwards"},{"startTime":61.933,"endTime":64.087,"body":"in this pyramid, right?"},{"startTime":64.115,"endTime":66.46,"body":"All the way up to, to discover"},{"startTime":64.115,"endTime":66.46,"body":"what the real problems are."},{"startTime":66.46,"endTime":69.706,"body":"This is like the five why's"},{"startTime":66.46,"endTime":69.706,"body":"of product management here."},{"startTime":69.71,"endTime":69.915,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":69.987,"endTime":72.078,"body":"trying to work backwards to"},{"startTime":69.987,"endTime":72.078,"body":"say, well, we, like our mission"},{"startTime":72.078,"endTime":73.551,"body":"is super shaky of our company."},{"startTime":73.551,"endTime":75.624,"body":"What is our company trying to achieve?"},{"startTime":75.815,"endTime":76.469,"body":"Here we go."},{"startTime":76.496,"endTime":78.569,"body":"Like, let, I, I kicked it into gear."},{"startTime":78.915,"endTime":81.16,"body":"I, I kind of threw out the"},{"startTime":78.915,"endTime":81.16,"body":"challenge of, hey, if you don't"},{"startTime":81.16,"endTime":84.656,"body":"have one of these, obviously the"},{"startTime":81.16,"endTime":84.656,"body":"next one's gonna not gonna work."},{"startTime":84.701,"endTime":88.519,"body":"One of the first things I, I want to"},{"startTime":84.701,"endTime":88.519,"body":"comment on here is what do most people do"},{"startTime":88.928,"endTime":92.501,"body":"in, in the product space when they, when"},{"startTime":88.928,"endTime":92.501,"body":"they go into a new organization, right?"},{"startTime":92.965,"endTime":93.892,"body":"Well, we need a roadmap."},{"startTime":94.11,"endTime":94.819,"body":"They start there."},{"startTime":94.819,"endTime":96.074,"body":"This, that's been my experience anyway."},{"startTime":96.265,"endTime":96.456,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":96.46,"endTime":96.837,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":96.892,"endTime":100.574,"body":"And what this model saying is"},{"startTime":96.892,"endTime":100.574,"body":"that is the wrong place to start."},{"startTime":100.792,"endTime":101.146,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":101.146,"endTime":102.237,"body":"Start with the mission."},{"startTime":102.292,"endTime":107.692,"body":"And by the way, the mission is not"},{"startTime":102.292,"endTime":107.692,"body":"what's stuck on a plaque in reception"},{"startTime":107.692,"endTime":109.246,"body":"as you walk by the front desk."},{"startTime":109.301,"endTime":111.046,"body":"That is just corporate speak."},{"startTime":111.074,"endTime":111.156,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":111.237,"endTime":113.583,"body":"Uh, that, that is not really"},{"startTime":111.237,"endTime":113.583,"body":"the mission, I don't think"},{"startTime":113.628,"endTime":115.856,"body":"realistically a company worth it all."},{"startTime":115.856,"endTime":118.919,"body":"Any company really could summarize"},{"startTime":115.856,"endTime":118.919,"body":"their mission on a plaque."},{"startTime":119.083,"endTime":119.301,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":119.983,"endTime":122.51,"body":"for one thing, if you're doing"},{"startTime":119.983,"endTime":122.51,"body":"that, that means not everybody"},{"startTime":122.51,"endTime":124.174,"body":"is really bought into it, right?"},{"startTime":124.174,"endTime":124.356,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":124.428,"endTime":125.837,"body":", it's just there for, for show."},{"startTime":126.219,"endTime":128.565,"body":"more often than not, the"},{"startTime":126.219,"endTime":128.565,"body":"mission is not missing."},{"startTime":128.906,"endTime":130.078,"body":"It is muddy."},{"startTime":130.187,"endTime":130.324,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":130.487,"endTime":130.815,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":130.951,"endTime":134.769,"body":"So the trick is when you go in,"},{"startTime":130.951,"endTime":134.769,"body":"ask people, ask your teammates, ask"},{"startTime":134.769,"endTime":136.46,"body":"everyone what is the mission of our org?"},{"startTime":136.66,"endTime":138.265,"body":"This is stuff to bring up"},{"startTime":136.66,"endTime":138.265,"body":"in the interview process."},{"startTime":138.357,"endTime":140.075,"body":"But you get told what you,"},{"startTime":138.357,"endTime":140.075,"body":"what they want you to hear."},{"startTime":140.075,"endTime":140.157,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":140.228,"endTime":142.4,"body":"You could, you could start that,"},{"startTime":140.228,"endTime":142.4,"body":"you could start the interview."},{"startTime":142.646,"endTime":142.891,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":143.246,"endTime":145.646,"body":"But who are you actually"},{"startTime":143.246,"endTime":145.646,"body":"interfacing with there?"},{"startTime":146.028,"endTime":146.382,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":146.9,"endTime":148.291,"body":"Not your team members necessarily."},{"startTime":148.341,"endTime":150.359,"body":"."},{"startTime":148.341,"endTime":150.359,"body":"You know, the interview process"},{"startTime":150.359,"endTime":151.668,"body":"that you are interacting with."},{"startTime":151.687,"endTime":151.978,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":152.187,"endTime":156.332,"body":"They may have some overarching"},{"startTime":152.187,"endTime":156.332,"body":"understanding of, of these things that"},{"startTime":156.332,"endTime":161.323,"body":"lead up to roadmap, but I think to"},{"startTime":156.332,"endTime":161.323,"body":"your point Om, it, it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":161.323,"endTime":166.205,"body":"These, these things are just words"},{"startTime":161.323,"endTime":166.205,"body":"that make no impact whatsoever if they"},{"startTime":166.232,"endTime":168.796,"body":"aren't really seeped into the culture."},{"startTime":168.8,"endTime":168.996,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":169.068,"endTime":170.159,"body":"of every mm-hmm."},{"startTime":170.237,"endTime":172.723,"body":"person right down to  certainly"},{"startTime":170.237,"endTime":172.723,"body":"down to the developers."},{"startTime":172.728,"endTime":175.668,"body":"Do they understand why they"},{"startTime":172.728,"endTime":175.668,"body":"are doing what they're doing?"},{"startTime":175.696,"endTime":175.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":175.996,"endTime":177.196,"body":"And do they buy into it?"},{"startTime":177.196,"endTime":177.25,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":177.332,"endTime":179.159,"body":"Like are is this their mission too?"},{"startTime":179.241,"endTime":179.596,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":179.596,"endTime":183.241,"body":"So when it comes to a product manager"},{"startTime":179.596,"endTime":183.241,"body":"and you're going from a prioritization"},{"startTime":183.241,"endTime":187.032,"body":"perspective, am I going in the right"},{"startTime":183.241,"endTime":187.032,"body":"direction from a roadmap perspective?"},{"startTime":187.032,"endTime":190.705,"body":"Am I going in the right direction"},{"startTime":187.032,"endTime":190.705,"body":"when I'm working with the team to"},{"startTime":190.705,"endTime":194.659,"body":"kind of pull people in so that we are"},{"startTime":190.705,"endTime":194.659,"body":"all moving in the right direction."},{"startTime":195.137,"endTime":201.109,"body":"We should be able to all agree in gen"},{"startTime":195.137,"endTime":201.109,"body":"generally that on the understanding of"},{"startTime":201.109,"endTime":204.618,"body":"what all of these things mean specifically"},{"startTime":201.109,"endTime":204.618,"body":"to the company that we are working for."},{"startTime":204.646,"endTime":204.782,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":205.164,"endTime":210.751,"body":"And I think the farther you go"},{"startTime":205.164,"endTime":210.751,"body":"down any hierarchy, the more muddy"},{"startTime":210.818,"endTime":213.257,"body":"that tends to become Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":213.43,"endTime":213.73,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":213.734,"endTime":214.057,"body":"Very true."},{"startTime":214.057,"endTime":214.639,"body":"That's very true."},{"startTime":214.721,"endTime":216.298,"body":"I wanna make sure I"},{"startTime":214.721,"endTime":216.298,"body":"understand what you're saying."},{"startTime":216.298,"endTime":220.225,"body":"I think what I understood you to"},{"startTime":216.298,"endTime":220.225,"body":"say is this, the further down the"},{"startTime":220.498,"endTime":222.625,"body":"company hierarchy that you go down."},{"startTime":222.625,"endTime":223.28,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":223.334,"endTime":224.725,"body":"In terms of rank maybe."},{"startTime":224.78,"endTime":225.025,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":225.025,"endTime":225.216,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":225.271,"endTime":226.989,"body":"Position, if you like title."},{"startTime":227.18,"endTime":232.68,"body":"the, the muddier, these things are so"},{"startTime":227.18,"endTime":232.68,"body":"at the lower levels of the hierarchy of"},{"startTime":232.68,"endTime":235.825,"body":"a, of an organization, they really don't"},{"startTime":232.68,"endTime":235.825,"body":"have a clear understanding of the mission."},{"startTime":235.825,"endTime":235.907,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":236.125,"endTime":237.762,"body":", they couldn't tell you what it is."},{"startTime":237.989,"endTime":240.084,"body":"They'll say something they"},{"startTime":237.989,"endTime":240.084,"body":"won't, you know, and that's"},{"startTime":240.084,"endTime":241.23,"body":"something may be completely."},{"startTime":241.966,"endTime":242.457,"body":"fuzzy."},{"startTime":242.566,"endTime":242.648,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":242.648,"endTime":243.821,"body":"Or it may be obfuscated."},{"startTime":244.039,"endTime":244.175,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":244.175,"endTime":246.466,"body":"So you really, that, that I think"},{"startTime":244.175,"endTime":246.466,"body":"is what you're getting at, right?"},{"startTime":246.471,"endTime":246.521,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":246.521,"endTime":249.571,"body":"And this is assuming basically that"},{"startTime":246.521,"endTime":249.571,"body":"we even have these things established"},{"startTime":249.898,"endTime":250.307,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":250.362,"endTime":252.352,"body":"Well, we you don't think"},{"startTime":250.362,"endTime":252.352,"body":"you make a good point there."},{"startTime":252.38,"endTime":252.516,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":252.516,"endTime":252.734,"body":"Serious."},{"startTime":252.734,"endTime":253.798,"body":"You're going where I want to go."},{"startTime":253.802,"endTime":254.834,"body":"That's what I want to go there."},{"startTime":254.834,"endTime":254.943,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":254.948,"endTime":256.862,"body":"Assuming these things"},{"startTime":254.948,"endTime":256.862,"body":"are even there, right?"},{"startTime":257.08,"endTime":257.262,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":257.266,"endTime":261.925,"body":"And if they have been there, in my"},{"startTime":257.266,"endTime":261.925,"body":"experience, they generally are, are"},{"startTime":261.925,"endTime":264.652,"body":"wordsmith and created by some, right."},{"startTime":264.68,"endTime":267.734,"body":"You know, by either consulting or"},{"startTime":264.68,"endTime":267.734,"body":"some executive leadership team or"},{"startTime":267.734,"endTime":269.557,"body":"marketing and it's not built in."},{"startTime":269.557,"endTime":272.721,"body":"So what the experience, experience"},{"startTime":269.557,"endTime":272.721,"body":"that I've had is that, I'll"},{"startTime":272.721,"endTime":274.548,"body":"give you a little, an example."},{"startTime":274.548,"endTime":277.939,"body":"So my daughter, my youngest daughter"},{"startTime":274.548,"endTime":277.939,"body":"went to went to an elementary"},{"startTime":277.943,"endTime":281.675,"body":"school and they used the, the fish"},{"startTime":277.943,"endTime":281.675,"body":"pH philosophy from Pike, you know,"},{"startTime":281.68,"endTime":284.63,"body":"the Pike Fish market in Seattle, I"},{"startTime":281.68,"endTime":284.63,"body":"think it is and I don't remember what"},{"startTime":284.63,"endTime":286.021,"body":"it stands for, but doesn't matter."},{"startTime":286.075,"endTime":289.375,"body":"So every, so every teacher in"},{"startTime":286.075,"endTime":289.375,"body":"the school, all the leadership,"},{"startTime":289.375,"endTime":290.766,"body":"they had it posted everywhere."},{"startTime":290.771,"endTime":295.384,"body":"It was ingrained in the the curriculum"},{"startTime":290.771,"endTime":295.384,"body":"this was an elementary school."},{"startTime":295.384,"endTime":300.212,"body":"So if you needed to kind of guide a"},{"startTime":295.384,"endTime":300.212,"body":"child back to, hey, what was, you know,"},{"startTime":300.212,"endTime":301.466,"body":"what was the implications of this?"},{"startTime":301.471,"endTime":305.148,"body":"They brought it back to the fish"},{"startTime":301.471,"endTime":305.148,"body":"philosophy or some level of that."},{"startTime":305.148,"endTime":305.475,"body":"It was."},{"startTime":305.939,"endTime":306.484,"body":"Cons."},{"startTime":306.512,"endTime":307.821,"body":"It was in the culture."},{"startTime":307.902,"endTime":307.984,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":308.621,"endTime":310.793,"body":"Everyone brought everything back to that."},{"startTime":311.066,"endTime":314.612,"body":"So that, that, that was, that,"},{"startTime":311.066,"endTime":314.612,"body":"that, that was their mi you"},{"startTime":314.612,"endTime":315.757,"body":"know, their, their values."},{"startTime":315.757,"endTime":316.03,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":316.184,"endTime":316.512,"body":", right."},{"startTime":316.516,"endTime":318.893,"body":"And then ultimately they had mission"},{"startTime":316.516,"endTime":318.893,"body":"and goals, but those certainly were the"},{"startTime":318.893,"endTime":324.021,"body":"values that were, that were intrinsic"},{"startTime":318.893,"endTime":324.021,"body":"in the teachers, in the leadership,"},{"startTime":324.048,"endTime":325.739,"body":"and ultimately in the students."},{"startTime":325.739,"endTime":332.639,"body":"So much so that the teacher could say to"},{"startTime":325.739,"endTime":332.639,"body":"any student and say, okay, you did this."},{"startTime":332.639,"endTime":336.63,"body":"Tell me, tell me which, fish philosophy,"},{"startTime":332.639,"endTime":336.63,"body":"which one of those could have helped"},{"startTime":336.63,"endTime":337.857,"body":"you to make a better choice here."},{"startTime":337.975,"endTime":340.975,"body":"That's ultimately from an"},{"startTime":337.975,"endTime":340.975,"body":"organizational cultural perspective."},{"startTime":341.284,"endTime":343.33,"body":"And well, it's not easy to"},{"startTime":341.284,"endTime":343.33,"body":"write a mission and vision."},{"startTime":343.33,"endTime":343.848,"body":"It's hard."},{"startTime":343.848,"endTime":349.848,"body":"But once it's done, the harder part"},{"startTime":343.848,"endTime":349.848,"body":"is truly getting everybody to buy"},{"startTime":349.848,"endTime":354.784,"body":"in and that means repetition, giving"},{"startTime":349.848,"endTime":354.784,"body":"examples, and bringing it back to"},{"startTime":354.784,"endTime":357.702,"body":"that over and over and over again."},{"startTime":357.921,"endTime":358.712,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":358.712,"endTime":359.693,"body":"You need to live it, right?"},{"startTime":359.748,"endTime":359.912,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":359.912,"endTime":361.466,"body":"You don't need to just"},{"startTime":359.912,"endTime":361.466,"body":"create and put it away."},{"startTime":361.766,"endTime":363.757,"body":"Is is it difficult?"},{"startTime":364.366,"endTime":367.234,"body":"I had a bunch of stuff I wanted"},{"startTime":364.366,"endTime":367.234,"body":"to dig into and, and cut into and"},{"startTime":367.234,"endTime":370.098,"body":"talk about, but I now that you"},{"startTime":367.234,"endTime":370.098,"body":"brought that up, Stormy, I kind of"},{"startTime":370.098,"endTime":371.052,"body":"don't wanna talk about any of that."},{"startTime":371.052,"endTime":374.389,"body":"I kind of want to talk about is it"},{"startTime":371.052,"endTime":374.389,"body":"difficult let's look at mission again."},{"startTime":374.434,"endTime":375.416,"body":"The mission."},{"startTime":375.743,"endTime":378.334,"body":"What are we trying to"},{"startTime":375.743,"endTime":378.334,"body":"achieve and the vision."},{"startTime":378.662,"endTime":383.298,"body":"What does the world or our product"},{"startTime":378.662,"endTime":383.298,"body":"look like when, when we've achieved it?"},{"startTime":383.707,"endTime":384.798,"body":"Like, are those difficult?"},{"startTime":384.825,"endTime":388.489,"body":"I think those are probably easier"},{"startTime":384.825,"endTime":388.489,"body":"to envision, to let everybody"},{"startTime":388.489,"endTime":391.271,"body":"know, Hey, if you want to join my"},{"startTime":388.489,"endTime":391.271,"body":"organization, this is what we're about."},{"startTime":391.325,"endTime":393.098,"body":"I think those are"},{"startTime":391.325,"endTime":393.098,"body":"probably the easier part."},{"startTime":393.589,"endTime":396.807,"body":"I think it's the strategy and"},{"startTime":393.589,"endTime":396.807,"body":"goals where everyone gets lost."},{"startTime":396.812,"endTime":397.089,"body":"True."},{"startTime":397.662,"endTime":403.557,"body":"It's not difficult to craft them,"},{"startTime":397.662,"endTime":403.557,"body":"but those are foundational and the"},{"startTime":403.557,"endTime":407.293,"body":"point there is to integrate it into"},{"startTime":403.557,"endTime":407.293,"body":"culture, which means there's a lot more"},{"startTime":407.293,"endTime":410.648,"body":"riding on the mission and the vision."},{"startTime":410.721,"endTime":413.034,"body":"With a far longer shelf life."},{"startTime":413.634,"endTime":413.907,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":413.907,"endTime":415.843,"body":"I don't than the, the, than the others."},{"startTime":415.843,"endTime":418.716,"body":"That you have opportunity kind of"},{"startTime":415.843,"endTime":418.716,"body":"change out a little often more often."},{"startTime":418.716,"endTime":419.407,"body":"I, I don't disagree."},{"startTime":419.407,"endTime":420.425,"body":"I like I'm with you on this."},{"startTime":420.425,"endTime":421.762,"body":"I don't, I don't disagree at all."},{"startTime":421.802,"endTime":425.539,"body":"I think you're right at like where you"},{"startTime":421.802,"endTime":425.539,"body":"started in this kind of like segue,"},{"startTime":425.539,"endTime":426.684,"body":"which I don't even know if it's a segue."},{"startTime":426.689,"endTime":428.73,"body":"I think it's a whole"},{"startTime":426.689,"endTime":428.73,"body":"segment of the podcast."},{"startTime":429.534,"endTime":431.652,"body":", I think you said something along"},{"startTime":429.534,"endTime":431.652,"body":"the lines of like the, the deeper"},{"startTime":431.652,"endTime":434.952,"body":"you get in the bureaucracy of the"},{"startTime":431.652,"endTime":434.952,"body":"organization, the further away from"},{"startTime":434.952,"endTime":441.112,"body":"these foundational items you get,"},{"startTime":434.952,"endTime":441.112,"body":"which is funny because , everything"},{"startTime":441.112,"endTime":443.948,"body":"you do should come back to these"},{"startTime":441.112,"endTime":443.948,"body":"foundational items in the organization."},{"startTime":443.993,"endTime":444.357,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":444.902,"endTime":448.602,"body":"And, and if you have leadership"},{"startTime":444.902,"endTime":448.602,"body":"that is expressing uh, opinions,"},{"startTime":448.602,"endTime":451.093,"body":"desires, goals, whatever, something."},{"startTime":452.166,"endTime":457.848,"body":"In, in an opposite direction of any"},{"startTime":452.166,"endTime":457.848,"body":"of these two foundational level items"},{"startTime":458.175,"endTime":462.821,"body":"then you have a problem that, that,"},{"startTime":458.175,"endTime":462.821,"body":"that like one department had, or one"},{"startTime":462.821,"endTime":465.63,"body":"team, or one grouping or one whatever"},{"startTime":465.657,"endTime":468.821,"body":"No one team can deal with these issues."},{"startTime":468.821,"endTime":470.724,"body":"You're gonna muddle through"},{"startTime":468.821,"endTime":470.724,"body":"as a result of that."},{"startTime":470.729,"endTime":471.515,"body":"I agree fully."},{"startTime":471.515,"endTime":471.788,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":471.792,"endTime":473.588,"body":"That's the only outcome if you don't know."},{"startTime":473.633,"endTime":474.397,"body":"A hundred percent."},{"startTime":474.402,"endTime":475.733,"body":"Not kind of sorta, right?"},{"startTime":475.733,"endTime":476.171,"body":"No, not kind."},{"startTime":476.175,"endTime":477.533,"body":"People have to be very, very clear."},{"startTime":477.579,"endTime":478.542,"body":"No, no, it can't be."},{"startTime":478.542,"endTime":480.315,"body":"If they're not, you are"},{"startTime":478.542,"endTime":480.315,"body":"going to model through."},{"startTime":480.479,"endTime":480.752,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":480.842,"endTime":485.37,"body":"If you're listening to the podcast and"},{"startTime":480.842,"endTime":485.37,"body":"you hear, oh, that's my organization."},{"startTime":485.38,"endTime":487.616,"body":"Maybe I'm a team leader or maybe"},{"startTime":485.38,"endTime":487.616,"body":"I'm a developer, or whatever."},{"startTime":487.78,"endTime":492.053,"body":"And to me, like I don't really understand"},{"startTime":487.78,"endTime":492.053,"body":"what the vision for my product is,"},{"startTime":492.057,"endTime":496.716,"body":"basically the, the strategy that my"},{"startTime":492.057,"endTime":496.716,"body":"product is taken care of for the business."},{"startTime":496.825,"endTime":497.725,"body":"That's not clear to you."},{"startTime":498.407,"endTime":501.371,"body":"You, you should stop for a second"},{"startTime":498.407,"endTime":501.371,"body":"and say, Hey , I, I don't really"},{"startTime":501.371,"endTime":505.162,"body":"understand what this product does in"},{"startTime":501.371,"endTime":505.162,"body":"terms of strategy for the company."},{"startTime":505.243,"endTime":505.325,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":505.707,"endTime":511.38,"body":"and how that strategy fits into the"},{"startTime":505.707,"endTime":511.38,"body":"vision and mission of the entire business."},{"startTime":511.383,"endTime":514.71,"body":"And hopefully that's a"},{"startTime":511.383,"endTime":514.71,"body":"15 minute conversation"},{"startTime":515.31,"endTime":517.683,"body":"you could do the same thing as"},{"startTime":515.31,"endTime":517.683,"body":"a scrum master on that team, or"},{"startTime":517.683,"endTime":518.61,"body":"an agile coach for that team."},{"startTime":518.619,"endTime":518.837,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":518.91,"endTime":521.065,"body":", you could do the same thing and say,"},{"startTime":518.91,"endTime":521.065,"body":"Hey, I understand you guys don't"},{"startTime":521.065,"endTime":523.792,"body":"understand how this rolls up to"},{"startTime":521.065,"endTime":523.792,"body":"the company's vision and mission."},{"startTime":523.983,"endTime":526.192,"body":"Let's sit down and talk about it."},{"startTime":526.71,"endTime":530.637,"body":"And if, if, if I'm not the right person,"},{"startTime":526.71,"endTime":530.637,"body":"or if I'm not sure, I will get somebody"},{"startTime":530.637,"endTime":534.537,"body":"from leadership in the room at a"},{"startTime":530.637,"endTime":534.537,"body":"separate session on, just on this topic."},{"startTime":534.583,"endTime":538.046,"body":"Maybe you work on software for CPAs,"},{"startTime":534.583,"endTime":538.046,"body":"for accountants and stuff like that."},{"startTime":538.237,"endTime":538.51,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":538.51,"endTime":541.428,"body":"Well, I'm gonna go get one of"},{"startTime":538.51,"endTime":541.428,"body":"the CPAs from the company and"},{"startTime":541.428,"endTime":543.01,"body":"they're gonna come talk to, to us."},{"startTime":543.351,"endTime":547.524,"body":"About how our software links into"},{"startTime":543.351,"endTime":547.524,"body":"the company's vision and mission,"},{"startTime":547.524,"endTime":551.915,"body":"and the team will completely"},{"startTime":547.524,"endTime":551.915,"body":"understand how what they're doing"},{"startTime":552.306,"endTime":555.496,"body":"affects the, the, the company's"},{"startTime":552.306,"endTime":555.496,"body":"vision and moves the company forward."},{"startTime":556.096,"endTime":556.233,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":556.233,"endTime":559.424,"body":"It's really about aligning"},{"startTime":556.233,"endTime":559.424,"body":"everybody right to those tho those"},{"startTime":559.424,"endTime":560.733,"body":"bottom layers of the pyramid."},{"startTime":560.787,"endTime":564.351,"body":"And in practice though, you know,"},{"startTime":560.787,"endTime":564.351,"body":"in practice what may happen is"},{"startTime":564.951,"endTime":568.774,"body":"let's say uh, a, a lower tier person"},{"startTime":564.951,"endTime":568.774,"body":"from the hierarchical perspective,"},{"startTime":568.965,"endTime":571.556,"body":"ask somebody that he's working"},{"startTime":568.965,"endTime":571.556,"body":"with a tech lead scrum master."},{"startTime":571.556,"endTime":574.91,"body":"The scrum master made themselves not"},{"startTime":571.556,"endTime":574.91,"body":"be a hundred percent clear on this."},{"startTime":575.183,"endTime":578.292,"body":"So instead of just winging"},{"startTime":575.183,"endTime":578.292,"body":"it, they need to step up and"},{"startTime":578.292,"endTime":579.683,"body":"say, that's a good question."},{"startTime":579.687,"endTime":580.337,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":580.41,"endTime":581.992,"body":"To your point, let's go get somebody else."},{"startTime":582.037,"endTime":584.737,"body":". Maybe, maybe get somebody from"},{"startTime":582.037,"endTime":584.737,"body":"higher up the organizational"},{"startTime":584.737,"endTime":585.619,"body":"hierarchy to say mm-hmm."},{"startTime":586.251,"endTime":588.251,"body":"Please share with"},{"startTime":586.251,"endTime":588.251,"body":"us . Clearly what these are."},{"startTime":588.306,"endTime":588.469,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":588.687,"endTime":591.824,"body":"And if everybody does that at each level,"},{"startTime":588.687,"endTime":591.824,"body":"then you ha you're gonna have alignment."},{"startTime":591.824,"endTime":595.201,"body":"Otherwise you're gonna have that,"},{"startTime":591.824,"endTime":595.201,"body":"misalignment, which magnifies"},{"startTime":595.201,"endTime":596.292,"body":"the further down you go."},{"startTime":596.935,"endTime":602.271,"body":"So interesting that you say that because"},{"startTime":596.935,"endTime":602.271,"body":"one of the things that I have experienced"},{"startTime":602.316,"endTime":608.671,"body":"is that that the incentives dependent"},{"startTime":602.316,"endTime":608.671,"body":"on where you are and the level that"},{"startTime":608.671,"endTime":615.735,"body":"you're at in the company do not match"},{"startTime":608.671,"endTime":615.735,"body":"up to the, the, that mission and values."},{"startTime":615.739,"endTime":617.548,"body":"So all of a sudden, now I'm conflicted."},{"startTime":617.548,"endTime":621.248,"body":"I may, I may have a perfectly clear"},{"startTime":617.548,"endTime":621.248,"body":"understanding of what that mission,"},{"startTime":621.439,"endTime":625.585,"body":"you know, our, our mission and, and,"},{"startTime":621.439,"endTime":625.585,"body":"and vision and, and strategies are"},{"startTime":625.675,"endTime":632.466,"body":"so, for example, as a salesperson I"},{"startTime":625.675,"endTime":632.466,"body":"may well understand that, but that"},{"startTime":632.466,"endTime":635.848,"body":"doesn't, but I really need this feature."},{"startTime":636.421,"endTime":641.085,"body":"I really need this built, or I need"},{"startTime":636.421,"endTime":641.085,"body":"this for your bonus so that I can get,"},{"startTime":641.085,"endTime":643.485,"body":"I can get this in this, this sale done."},{"startTime":643.485,"endTime":643.675,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":643.894,"endTime":644.194,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":644.198,"endTime":646.894,"body":"I need this for an, you know, an RFP."},{"startTime":646.898,"endTime":647.548,"body":"I need this."},{"startTime":647.548,"endTime":650.957,"body":"If you can't, and I need to get, not only"},{"startTime":647.548,"endTime":650.957,"body":"I need to get a confirmation, it could"},{"startTime":650.957,"endTime":652.839,"body":"be done, but I need to get a timeline"},{"startTime":652.994,"endTime":653.875,"body":"Account management."},{"startTime":653.985,"endTime":655.43,"body":"I'm in the middle of an invitation."},{"startTime":655.648,"endTime":659.194,"body":"Somehow we've uncovered some kind of"},{"startTime":655.648,"endTime":659.194,"body":"data migration that wasn't uncover."},{"startTime":659.657,"endTime":659.903,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":659.903,"endTime":662.685,"body":"And now that I need this,"},{"startTime":659.903,"endTime":662.685,"body":"I need this done now."},{"startTime":662.739,"endTime":662.821,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":662.848,"endTime":663.503,"body":"Support."},{"startTime":663.53,"endTime":668.057,"body":"I need this done because I have this"},{"startTime":663.53,"endTime":668.057,"body":"customer screaming at me every day."},{"startTime":668.248,"endTime":671.412,"body":"So this is, I need you to put this"},{"startTime":668.248,"endTime":671.412,"body":"on the roadmap and I need you to"},{"startTime":671.412,"endTime":673.594,"body":"make sure that it gets done asap."},{"startTime":673.866,"endTime":680.439,"body":"So what I would say there, to your"},{"startTime":673.866,"endTime":680.439,"body":"point, here's where that scrum master"},{"startTime":680.957,"endTime":682.457,"body":"has the opportunity to jump in."},{"startTime":682.457,"endTime":684.966,"body":"And I know this is something that you've"},{"startTime":682.457,"endTime":684.966,"body":"talked about on multiple occasions and"},{"startTime":684.966,"endTime":689.635,"body":"saying like a scrum master isn't just the"},{"startTime":684.966,"endTime":689.635,"body":"servant leader of a team, but to really"},{"startTime":689.635,"endTime":695.689,"body":"be of benefit to across the organization,"},{"startTime":689.635,"endTime":695.689,"body":"certainly to our leadership team."},{"startTime":695.907,"endTime":701.544,"body":"So if we don't have a culture that's"},{"startTime":695.907,"endTime":701.544,"body":"being built from the top down, and"},{"startTime":701.548,"endTime":705.435,"body":"what I mean is not pyramid, I'm talking"},{"startTime":701.548,"endTime":705.435,"body":"about organizationally  that is being"},{"startTime":705.707,"endTime":712.112,"body":"repetitiously ingrained into the way in"},{"startTime":705.707,"endTime":712.112,"body":"which we do business and the way in which"},{"startTime":712.116,"endTime":717.521,"body":"we communicate which gives the opportunity"},{"startTime":712.116,"endTime":717.521,"body":"instead of a customer screaming at us and"},{"startTime":717.521,"endTime":723.357,"body":"saying, I need this now for an account"},{"startTime":717.521,"endTime":723.357,"body":"manager to, to understand why that"},{"startTime":723.412,"endTime":727.285,"body":"isn't something that necessarily needs"},{"startTime":723.412,"endTime":727.285,"body":"to go to the top of the, of the list."},{"startTime":727.289,"endTime":730.366,"body":"And maybe it does, that doesn't"},{"startTime":727.289,"endTime":730.366,"body":"mean, but they would still have an"},{"startTime":730.371,"endTime":734.603,"body":"understanding of that pyramid in"},{"startTime":730.371,"endTime":734.603,"body":"regards to, our mission, our vision, our"},{"startTime":734.603,"endTime":737.33,"body":"strategy, how that potentially fits in."},{"startTime":737.33,"endTime":741.285,"body":"And if they don't, maybe they would,"},{"startTime":737.33,"endTime":741.285,"body":"maybe they would know to go to"},{"startTime":741.285,"endTime":744.094,"body":"the scrum master and say, Hey, you"},{"startTime":741.285,"endTime":744.094,"body":"know, this isn't really aligning."},{"startTime":744.707,"endTime":745.035,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":745.116,"endTime":749.344,"body":"And, and the scrum master may be able"},{"startTime":745.116,"endTime":749.344,"body":"to kind of understand where those"},{"startTime":749.344,"endTime":753.135,"body":"misalignments are happening and if"},{"startTime":749.344,"endTime":753.135,"body":"it, if they're being incentivized in"},{"startTime":753.139,"endTime":758.653,"body":"the wrong way,  if they're straying"},{"startTime":753.139,"endTime":758.653,"body":"now away from those, the, the"},{"startTime":758.68,"endTime":760.48,"body":"mission, vision, strategy, et cetera."},{"startTime":760.507,"endTime":760.644,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":760.862,"endTime":764.271,"body":"based on the way they're being"},{"startTime":760.862,"endTime":764.271,"body":"incentivized, then there's some work"},{"startTime":764.275,"endTime":767.08,"body":"there that needs to be done, and it"},{"startTime":764.275,"endTime":767.08,"body":"really does need to be done top down"},{"startTime":767.08,"endTime":768.58,"body":"from the leadership perspective."},{"startTime":768.585,"endTime":768.735,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":768.88,"endTime":770.38,"body":"And that's something that certainly, yeah."},{"startTime":770.898,"endTime":774.875,"body":"That a scrum master or an agile"},{"startTime":770.898,"endTime":774.875,"body":"coach can jump in and, and start"},{"startTime":774.875,"endTime":778.275,"body":"to recognize and shine some light"},{"startTime":774.875,"endTime":778.275,"body":"on those and get some mm-hmm."},{"startTime":778.494,"endTime":782.085,"body":"collaboration across the board and see"},{"startTime":778.494,"endTime":782.085,"body":"how those things could be improved."},{"startTime":782.085,"endTime":783.512,"body":"when you are in the fervor."},{"startTime":783.912,"endTime":786.639,"body":"Of going from delivery"},{"startTime":783.912,"endTime":786.639,"body":"item to delivery item."},{"startTime":787.43,"endTime":792.857,"body":"You don't have the best perspective"},{"startTime":787.43,"endTime":792.857,"body":"to step back to say, how is everyone"},{"startTime":792.857,"endTime":794.43,"body":"perceiving this and what mm-hmm."},{"startTime":794.503,"endTime":795.857,"body":"and how does this all work together?"},{"startTime":796.021,"endTime":800.994,"body":"Like you don't have the best perspective"},{"startTime":796.021,"endTime":800.994,"body":"when you're that close, I, I go back on"},{"startTime":800.994,"endTime":806.748,"body":"my experience in, in a, in a large program"},{"startTime":800.994,"endTime":806.748,"body":"of being sort of a program manager, to"},{"startTime":806.748,"endTime":810.294,"body":"be able to step back with, you know,"},{"startTime":806.748,"endTime":810.294,"body":"7, 8,  teams to be able to step back"},{"startTime":810.298,"endTime":812.085,"body":"to say, what are we trying to do here?"},{"startTime":812.13,"endTime":814.83,"body":"What value comes out of the work"},{"startTime":812.13,"endTime":814.83,"body":"that all of my teams are doing?"},{"startTime":814.88,"endTime":820.171,"body":"That that person is a leadership member"},{"startTime":814.88,"endTime":820.171,"body":"because they can back up in this, in, in"},{"startTime":820.171,"endTime":823.865,"body":"this, in this pyramid where you're down at"},{"startTime":820.171,"endTime":823.865,"body":"the, like you're at the tippy top between"},{"startTime":823.865,"endTime":825.474,"body":"roadmap and what the teams are delivering."},{"startTime":825.556,"endTime":826.292,"body":"They're off the top."},{"startTime":826.347,"endTime":826.565,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":826.565,"endTime":827.465,"body":"You're off the top."},{"startTime":827.465,"endTime":827.574,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":827.579,"endTime":828.202,"body":"You're like a point."},{"startTime":828.311,"endTime":829.702,"body":"The top is pointed to where you're going."},{"startTime":829.865,"endTime":834.565,"body":"You wanna back way back up to the strategy"},{"startTime":829.865,"endTime":834.565,"body":"level and say, wait, what, what are we,"},{"startTime":834.57,"endTime":836.138,"body":"what are we supposed to be doing here?"},{"startTime":836.492,"endTime":839.547,"body":"Wait, like if I were to talk to"},{"startTime":836.492,"endTime":839.547,"body":"leadership in terms of leadership"},{"startTime":839.847,"endTime":843.747,"body":"numbers and metrics, they're not gonna"},{"startTime":839.847,"endTime":843.747,"body":"be at the tippy top of the pyramid."},{"startTime":843.752,"endTime":847.947,"body":"They're gonna back way down"},{"startTime":843.752,"endTime":847.947,"body":"possibly to the vision category."},{"startTime":847.992,"endTime":851.952,"body":"also, I would argue they will be"},{"startTime":847.992,"endTime":851.952,"body":"frustrated that the people at the"},{"startTime":851.952,"endTime":855.888,"body":"roadmap level can't talk at the"},{"startTime":851.952,"endTime":855.888,"body":"vision level to say, Hey, how."},{"startTime":856.833,"endTime":859.561,"body":"well Are we delivering on"},{"startTime":856.833,"endTime":859.561,"body":"the vision for the program?"},{"startTime":859.561,"endTime":863.87,"body":"Because I like the whole reason for"},{"startTime":859.561,"endTime":863.87,"body":"me leading this program, funding this"},{"startTime":863.874,"endTime":866.161,"body":"program, paying for this program."},{"startTime":866.161,"endTime":866.242,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":866.942,"endTime":869.815,"body":"is because my vision"},{"startTime":866.942,"endTime":869.815,"body":"is being taken care of."},{"startTime":870.115,"endTime":870.197,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":870.42,"endTime":875.133,"body":". And when I see that my vision via"},{"startTime":870.42,"endTime":875.133,"body":"the strategies carrying out my"},{"startTime":875.133,"endTime":877.424,"body":"vision are not being successful."},{"startTime":878.515,"endTime":879.497,"body":"I need to talk about that."},{"startTime":879.497,"endTime":881.324,"body":"I need to talk about that in the layer."},{"startTime":881.461,"endTime":882.661,"body":"In the layer that I see it."},{"startTime":882.852,"endTime":883.97,"body":"Not way up here."},{"startTime":884.024,"endTime":884.897,"body":"Oh, I'm sorry."},{"startTime":884.897,"endTime":885.415,"body":"Way up camera."},{"startTime":885.852,"endTime":886.752,"body":"Not way up here."},{"startTime":888.579,"endTime":889.206,"body":"Not way up here."},{"startTime":889.206,"endTime":890.106,"body":"Past the roadmap level."},{"startTime":890.133,"endTime":893.429,"body":"Cause So there's a certain level of"},{"startTime":890.133,"endTime":893.429,"body":"I hear this all the time of like, I."},{"startTime":894.22,"endTime":896.838,"body":"This language, right?"},{"startTime":896.838,"endTime":900.006,"body":"But, but it, it, it, it works"},{"startTime":896.838,"endTime":900.006,"body":"very well with the categories"},{"startTime":900.006,"endTime":900.742,"body":"that we're talking about."},{"startTime":900.879,"endTime":906.256,"body":"Like leadership speaks, mission,"},{"startTime":900.879,"endTime":906.256,"body":"vision, and maybe strategy, and then"},{"startTime":906.261,"endTime":910.765,"body":"the, the, the product people and the"},{"startTime":906.261,"endTime":910.765,"body":"teams speak maybe strategy, but they"},{"startTime":910.765,"endTime":913.411,"body":"definitely speak goals and roadmap"},{"startTime":910.765,"endTime":913.411,"body":"and whatever's lower than roadmap."},{"startTime":913.874,"endTime":914.065,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":914.065,"endTime":915.429,"body":"I wanna say a couple of things about this."},{"startTime":915.429,"endTime":919.89,"body":"So first of all, I just wanted to go"},{"startTime":915.429,"endTime":919.89,"body":"back briefly to the statement that,"},{"startTime":919.983,"endTime":923.392,"body":"scrum Masters, anybody Sure should"},{"startTime":919.983,"endTime":923.392,"body":"be able to step in and say, sure."},{"startTime":923.447,"endTime":925.411,"body":"This is why, this is"},{"startTime":923.447,"endTime":925.411,"body":"the alignment we need."},{"startTime":925.456,"endTime":930.352,"body":"So, one way in practice that this"},{"startTime":925.456,"endTime":930.352,"body":"alignment could happen, , quote unquote,"},{"startTime":930.352,"endTime":936.17,"body":"naturally, is to have the product owners,"},{"startTime":930.352,"endTime":936.17,"body":"when they are explaining what they want"},{"startTime":936.174,"endTime":939.742,"body":"out of a sprint, for example, sprint goal,"},{"startTime":936.174,"endTime":939.742,"body":"they're, they're communicating that and"},{"startTime":939.742,"endTime":943.452,"body":"collaborating with the team on this, or"},{"startTime":939.742,"endTime":943.452,"body":"they may be creating features, et cetera."},{"startTime":943.479,"endTime":943.561,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":944.597,"endTime":947.406,"body":", don't just focus on the what,"},{"startTime":944.597,"endTime":947.406,"body":"which is what I see all the time."},{"startTime":947.597,"endTime":947.952,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":948.033,"endTime":948.906,"body":"Here's what we need."},{"startTime":949.424,"endTime":952.152,"body":"Why, why, why, exactly why."},{"startTime":952.206,"endTime":955.452,"body":"And that can tie back to"},{"startTime":952.206,"endTime":955.452,"body":"the layers of that pyramid."},{"startTime":955.452,"endTime":955.779,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":955.783,"endTime":957.333,"body":"Because this, and then why that?"},{"startTime":957.338,"endTime":958.279,"body":"Because this, right?"},{"startTime":958.279,"endTime":958.533,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":958.606,"endTime":961.942,"body":", if that is made clear during the"},{"startTime":958.606,"endTime":961.942,"body":"time you spend with your teams, sure."},{"startTime":961.97,"endTime":963.606,"body":"You are gonna be much closer aligned."},{"startTime":964.324,"endTime":965.652,"body":"So that's the first thing I wanna say."},{"startTime":965.652,"endTime":969.306,"body":"The second thing I wanna say about the"},{"startTime":965.652,"endTime":969.306,"body":"statement you made about leadership"},{"startTime":969.306,"endTime":972.933,"body":"saying, I'm, I'm, I'm assuming"},{"startTime":969.306,"endTime":972.933,"body":"why vision is getting realized."},{"startTime":973.315,"endTime":974.379,"body":"Uh, is it right?"},{"startTime":974.624,"endTime":976.233,"body":"What's the, what's the confirmation there?"},{"startTime":976.424,"endTime":976.779,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":976.833,"endTime":979.779,"body":"Tactically are people delivering"},{"startTime":976.833,"endTime":979.779,"body":"to that vision, right?"},{"startTime":979.783,"endTime":979.915,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":980.203,"endTime":980.885,"body":"transparency."},{"startTime":980.885,"endTime":982.085,"body":"So we talk about that all the time."},{"startTime":982.085,"endTime":982.303,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":982.303,"endTime":983.558,"body":"How, what does that look like?"},{"startTime":983.558,"endTime":986.858,"body":"And I'm kind of segueing now, I guess,"},{"startTime":983.558,"endTime":986.858,"body":"into the next piece of this this podcast."},{"startTime":987.022,"endTime":990.812,"body":"How do we show if we are, assuming"},{"startTime":987.022,"endTime":990.812,"body":"we've got a solid foundation, we"},{"startTime":990.812,"endTime":994.522,"body":"understand it, we understand the next"},{"startTime":990.812,"endTime":994.522,"body":"level, we put the third slab on, right?"},{"startTime":994.522,"endTime":995.149,"body":"We keep going."},{"startTime":995.703,"endTime":998.322,"body":"How do we portray this alignment Yeah."},{"startTime":998.349,"endTime":999.931,"body":"Of what is happening tactically?"},{"startTime":1000.122,"endTime":1000.203,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1000.285,"endTime":1001.812,"body":"To the strategy and below."},{"startTime":1001.894,"endTime":1001.976,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1001.976,"endTime":1002.249,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1002.276,"endTime":1002.358,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1002.576,"endTime":1004.103,"body":", that, that's where I"},{"startTime":1002.576,"endTime":1004.103,"body":"wanted to get to next."},{"startTime":1004.44,"endTime":1009.206,"body":"The articles that I have here to talk"},{"startTime":1004.44,"endTime":1009.206,"body":"about have examples of all, all of"},{"startTime":1009.206,"endTime":1010.761,"body":"these mission, vision, strategy goals."},{"startTime":1010.852,"endTime":1012.879,"body":"If we're done and we're ready to get"},{"startTime":1010.852,"endTime":1012.879,"body":"into it, I'll, I'll pull them up."},{"startTime":1012.879,"endTime":1013.37,"body":"I think we're there."},{"startTime":1013.37,"endTime":1014.243,"body":"Yeah, I think we're there."},{"startTime":1014.261,"endTime":1014.452,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1014.711,"endTime":1017.584,"body":"The other thing I just as you pull"},{"startTime":1014.711,"endTime":1017.584,"body":"that up, I would say is mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1017.588,"endTime":1022.899,"body":"As the product manager coming in without"},{"startTime":1017.588,"endTime":1022.899,"body":"potentially these things clearly defined,"},{"startTime":1022.926,"endTime":1027.176,"body":"there's this feeling that you have to"},{"startTime":1022.926,"endTime":1027.176,"body":"fix it All  if it's not there or if"},{"startTime":1027.176,"endTime":1030.676,"body":"it's not clear,  I, I should be able"},{"startTime":1027.176,"endTime":1030.676,"body":"to fix this because the only way for"},{"startTime":1030.681,"endTime":1034.204,"body":"me to my, do my job appropriately is"},{"startTime":1030.681,"endTime":1034.204,"body":"to have these things in place, right?"},{"startTime":1034.349,"endTime":1034.495,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1034.822,"endTime":1034.876,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1034.931,"endTime":1040.244,"body":"But this goes all the way back to"},{"startTime":1034.931,"endTime":1040.244,"body":"the top tier of our organization."},{"startTime":1040.363,"endTime":1040.44,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1041.04,"endTime":1046.367,"body":". And as much as I want to be able to"},{"startTime":1041.04,"endTime":1046.367,"body":"establish these things, it's not something"},{"startTime":1046.372,"endTime":1047.731,"body":"that could be done with a single person."},{"startTime":1047.735,"endTime":1053.154,"body":"Certainly somebody  that doesn't have"},{"startTime":1047.735,"endTime":1053.154,"body":"a lot of the overarching knowledge and,"},{"startTime":1053.154,"endTime":1056.695,"body":"and some of the other variables that are"},{"startTime":1053.154,"endTime":1056.695,"body":"playing into  the thought process behind"},{"startTime":1056.695,"endTime":1060.004,"body":"a, a mission, vision, the strategy,"},{"startTime":1056.695,"endTime":1060.004,"body":"the goals that we're trying to achieve."},{"startTime":1060.438,"endTime":1063.302,"body":"That's frustrating"},{"startTime":1060.438,"endTime":1063.302,"body":"because you wanna fix it."},{"startTime":1063.302,"endTime":1063.52,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1063.566,"endTime":1067.702,"body":"When I used to do product management"},{"startTime":1063.566,"endTime":1067.702,"body":"on contract I was at a company"},{"startTime":1067.702,"endTime":1069.338,"body":"one time that had three founders."},{"startTime":1069.638,"endTime":1074.438,"body":"And the three founders basically"},{"startTime":1069.638,"endTime":1074.438,"body":"disagreed on the, the mission, mission"},{"startTime":1074.443,"endTime":1075.966,"body":"slash vision of the organization."},{"startTime":1077.193,"endTime":1081.966,"body":"So the first thing I had to do is that"},{"startTime":1077.193,"endTime":1081.966,"body":"as their first product hire, I had to"},{"startTime":1081.966,"endTime":1087.748,"body":"say, look, I can't, I can't operate with"},{"startTime":1081.966,"endTime":1087.748,"body":"two or three missions and or visions."},{"startTime":1088.102,"endTime":1088.238,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1088.457,"endTime":1092.002,"body":", I, I can't even operate on everyone"},{"startTime":1088.457,"endTime":1092.002,"body":"agreeing on the same mission,  two or"},{"startTime":1092.002,"endTime":1094.088,"body":"three people disagreeing on the vision."},{"startTime":1094.179,"endTime":1097.288,"body":"I need all three of you to agree"},{"startTime":1094.179,"endTime":1097.288,"body":"on both the mission and the vision."},{"startTime":1097.861,"endTime":1099.752,"body":"So then  we can agree on strategy."},{"startTime":1099.807,"endTime":1104.088,"body":"And I can build a roadmap from"},{"startTime":1099.807,"endTime":1104.088,"body":"the goals of that strategy."},{"startTime":1104.516,"endTime":1106.943,"body":"But I need them to align first."},{"startTime":1107.216,"endTime":1111.252,"body":"And that, that's not a  that has"},{"startTime":1107.216,"endTime":1111.252,"body":"nothing to do with a product manager's"},{"startTime":1111.257,"endTime":1115.098,"body":"job, but also it has everything to"},{"startTime":1111.257,"endTime":1115.098,"body":"do with a product manager's job."},{"startTime":1115.098,"endTime":1117.088,"body":"I only go down this, this long tangent."},{"startTime":1117.388,"endTime":1121.098,"body":"Um, because  I've been lucky enough"},{"startTime":1117.388,"endTime":1121.098,"body":"in my career to have this experience"},{"startTime":1121.37,"endTime":1125.598,"body":"where I went down this road and I, and"},{"startTime":1121.37,"endTime":1125.598,"body":"I realized that like, I'm not gonna"},{"startTime":1125.598,"endTime":1129.852,"body":"be able to make an impact , unless"},{"startTime":1125.598,"endTime":1129.852,"body":"these base levels of the pyramid are"},{"startTime":1129.907,"endTime":1132.179,"body":"solidified and once they're solid."},{"startTime":1132.738,"endTime":1136.693,"body":"And then we start aligning on strategies"},{"startTime":1132.738,"endTime":1136.693,"body":"with the, at the leadership level."},{"startTime":1136.911,"endTime":1139.575,"body":"Like here I am, I'm the, I'm"},{"startTime":1136.911,"endTime":1139.575,"body":"the cheerleader of strategy."},{"startTime":1139.72,"endTime":1140.775,"body":"Oh, our strategy."},{"startTime":1140.779,"endTime":1141.684,"body":"Yeah, let's go."},{"startTime":1141.766,"endTime":1145.093,"body":"So like, I'm selling that to every"},{"startTime":1141.766,"endTime":1145.093,"body":"employee in the organization."},{"startTime":1145.693,"endTime":1153.111,"body":"Hey, these are our strategies and he help"},{"startTime":1145.693,"endTime":1153.111,"body":"me help you carry out these strategies."},{"startTime":1153.393,"endTime":1156.038,"body":", through, through the product and"},{"startTime":1153.393,"endTime":1156.038,"body":"through how we service clients"},{"startTime":1156.038,"endTime":1156.911,"body":"and customers and whatnot."},{"startTime":1157.52,"endTime":1160.075,"body":"I didn't want to talk about any of"},{"startTime":1157.52,"endTime":1160.075,"body":"that , but I went down that road because"},{"startTime":1160.129,"endTime":1164.529,"body":"just, just because it was like within"},{"startTime":1160.129,"endTime":1164.529,"body":"my tiny little sliver of experience of"},{"startTime":1164.538,"endTime":1166.375,"body":"uh of a customer that I was at one time."},{"startTime":1166.593,"endTime":1168.638,"body":"Was that completely trial and error?"},{"startTime":1168.829,"endTime":1174.229,"body":"What, if you can remember in that"},{"startTime":1168.829,"endTime":1174.229,"body":"situation, how do you make that happen?"},{"startTime":1174.284,"endTime":1178.361,"body":"Because I feel like from a, from"},{"startTime":1174.284,"endTime":1178.361,"body":"an audience perspective I feel like"},{"startTime":1178.852,"endTime":1181.907,"body":"probably a lot of people are dealing"},{"startTime":1178.852,"endTime":1181.907,"body":"with this, this type of an issue."},{"startTime":1181.907,"endTime":1181.988,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1182.42,"endTime":1186.134,"body":", it's not, it's, it's,"},{"startTime":1182.42,"endTime":1186.134,"body":"it's common, and don't."},{"startTime":1186.448,"endTime":1189.638,"body":"Don't have a whole lot of"},{"startTime":1186.448,"endTime":1189.638,"body":"experience on how to approach it"},{"startTime":1189.638,"endTime":1193.294,"body":"let's pretend you're product and"},{"startTime":1189.638,"endTime":1193.294,"body":"you are charged by the organization"},{"startTime":1193.549,"endTime":1195.894,"body":"you're charged by the organization"},{"startTime":1193.549,"endTime":1195.894,"body":"delivering on the goals."},{"startTime":1195.921,"endTime":1196.167,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1196.167,"endTime":1198.894,"body":"Let's, let's just so we don't get"},{"startTime":1196.167,"endTime":1198.894,"body":"in a bunch of arguments, okay."},{"startTime":1198.958,"endTime":1199.14,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1199.167,"endTime":1203.285,"body":"Hey, these are your goals, like roadmap"},{"startTime":1199.167,"endTime":1203.285,"body":"items, epics, whatever features."},{"startTime":1203.335,"endTime":1204.031,"body":"Deliver on these goals."},{"startTime":1205.203,"endTime":1209.94,"body":"some of it is being willing to"},{"startTime":1205.203,"endTime":1209.94,"body":"kind of muddle through it mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1210.158,"endTime":1212.64,"body":"and be like, well, I don't, I don't"},{"startTime":1210.158,"endTime":1212.64,"body":"really know how to do this, so I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1212.64,"endTime":1217.794,"body":"bring up my team, and then me and my team"},{"startTime":1212.64,"endTime":1217.794,"body":"together, we're gonna uh succeed together."},{"startTime":1217.876,"endTime":1218.94,"body":"We're also gonna fail together."},{"startTime":1219.158,"endTime":1222.918,"body":"And then at the end of each cycle,"},{"startTime":1219.158,"endTime":1222.918,"body":"iteration, whatever it is, we're"},{"startTime":1222.918,"endTime":1224.528,"body":"going to discuss with leadership."},{"startTime":1225.018,"endTime":1226.464,"body":"This is where we succeeded."},{"startTime":1226.546,"endTime":1228.237,"body":"This is where we failed"},{"startTime":1226.546,"endTime":1228.237,"body":"and where we failed."},{"startTime":1228.237,"endTime":1229.055,"body":"This is what we learned"},{"startTime":1229.191,"endTime":1235.437,"body":"so it, it's bringing leadership in"},{"startTime":1229.191,"endTime":1235.437,"body":"to support you at the strategy layer"},{"startTime":1235.546,"endTime":1240.458,"body":"to say, Hey, we're carrying out your"},{"startTime":1235.546,"endTime":1240.458,"body":"strategy and we're finding we have x"},{"startTime":1240.458,"endTime":1244.767,"body":"percentage of failures over successes"},{"startTime":1240.458,"endTime":1244.767,"body":"as we try to carry out your strategy."},{"startTime":1245.503,"endTime":1245.776,"body":", right?"},{"startTime":1245.831,"endTime":1249.512,"body":"I, I feel when we, when we related it"},{"startTime":1245.831,"endTime":1249.512,"body":"to software, everyone loses their minds."},{"startTime":1249.703,"endTime":1252.212,"body":"But we could relate this back"},{"startTime":1249.703,"endTime":1252.212,"body":"to almost any other thing."},{"startTime":1252.212,"endTime":1253.521,"body":"I was like, what is your strategy?"},{"startTime":1253.631,"endTime":1255.14,"body":"Om?, maybe you're military commander."},{"startTime":1255.14,"endTime":1258.985,"body":"My strategy is to kill as many"},{"startTime":1255.14,"endTime":1258.985,"body":"people as possible with as few"},{"startTime":1258.985,"endTime":1260.049,"body":"of my people that got killed."},{"startTime":1260.44,"endTime":1261.476,"body":"But that's your strategy."},{"startTime":1261.658,"endTime":1262.803,"body":"Oh, maximize your yield."},{"startTime":1262.803,"endTime":1262.967,"body":"Ma."},{"startTime":1263.403,"endTime":1263.949,"body":"Maximize your yield."},{"startTime":1264.031,"endTime":1265.803,"body":"Like, oh, well, well, that's"},{"startTime":1264.031,"endTime":1265.803,"body":"a nicer way of saying it."},{"startTime":1265.803,"endTime":1266.458,"body":"How do we know?"},{"startTime":1266.54,"endTime":1268.285,"body":"How do we know that"},{"startTime":1266.54,"endTime":1268.285,"body":"you're being successful?"},{"startTime":1268.612,"endTime":1271.803,"body":"Well, I mean, the percentages"},{"startTime":1268.612,"endTime":1271.803,"body":"go up and down and up and down."},{"startTime":1272.003,"endTime":1275.052,"body":"Maybe,  you know, until we run"},{"startTime":1272.003,"endTime":1275.052,"body":"into a different method of warfare"},{"startTime":1275.052,"endTime":1276.252,"body":"that you've never been exposed to."},{"startTime":1276.307,"endTime":1276.471,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1276.471,"endTime":1278.134,"body":"And then your strategy"},{"startTime":1276.471,"endTime":1278.134,"body":"doesn't work anymore."},{"startTime":1278.298,"endTime":1281.348,"body":"So  how are we evaluating and"},{"startTime":1278.298,"endTime":1281.348,"body":"what metrics are we using?"},{"startTime":1281.893,"endTime":1282.548,"body":"Great question."},{"startTime":1282.575,"endTime":1285.63,"body":"That's a really good segue into"},{"startTime":1282.575,"endTime":1285.63,"body":"how do we know we're getting there?"},{"startTime":1285.702,"endTime":1288.012,"body":"So this article has some examples of."},{"startTime":1289.275,"endTime":1291.839,"body":"roadmaps that Yes, we can talk about that."},{"startTime":1291.893,"endTime":1292.548,"body":"Maybe next."},{"startTime":1292.548,"endTime":1293.012,"body":"It sure does."},{"startTime":1293.775,"endTime":1297.912,"body":"So we have this pyramid and"},{"startTime":1293.775,"endTime":1297.912,"body":"let's start with mission."},{"startTime":1297.957,"endTime":1301.23,"body":"We're just going to pick one example,"},{"startTime":1297.957,"endTime":1301.23,"body":"and the example here is Tesla."},{"startTime":1301.502,"endTime":1304.366,"body":"Like, I don't, I'm, I'm not trying"},{"startTime":1301.502,"endTime":1304.366,"body":"to make a statement about how you"},{"startTime":1304.366,"endTime":1308.475,"body":"feel about Tesla or if you own Tesla"},{"startTime":1304.366,"endTime":1308.475,"body":"stock, or if you like Twitter mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1308.548,"endTime":1309.348,"body":"or if you like Twitter mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1309.421,"endTime":1309.422,"body":". Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1309.875,"endTime":1314.484,"body":". But the, the Tesla mission,"},{"startTime":1309.875,"endTime":1314.484,"body":"is accelerate the world's"},{"startTime":1314.539,"endTime":1316.775,"body":"transition to sustainable energy."},{"startTime":1316.966,"endTime":1319.502,"body":"That's the base level  of the pyramid."},{"startTime":1320.048,"endTime":1320.348,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1320.975,"endTime":1326.13,"body":"Let's wheel up to level two vision"},{"startTime":1320.975,"endTime":1326.13,"body":"From there, from accelerate the"},{"startTime":1326.13,"endTime":1330.193,"body":"world's transition to sustainable"},{"startTime":1326.13,"endTime":1330.193,"body":"energy, and then we wheel up to vision."},{"startTime":1330.248,"endTime":1334.312,"body":"And the vision here is to"},{"startTime":1330.248,"endTime":1334.312,"body":"create the most compelling car"},{"startTime":1334.312,"endTime":1336.875,"body":"company of the 21st century."},{"startTime":1337.748,"endTime":1343.554,"body":"Which  it does fall under accelerating"},{"startTime":1337.748,"endTime":1343.554,"body":"a transition to sustainable energy."},{"startTime":1343.6,"endTime":1346.427,"body":"Let's move on to the next level of"},{"startTime":1343.6,"endTime":1346.427,"body":"the pyramid, talking about strategy."},{"startTime":1346.491,"endTime":1350.854,"body":"And here we go with Tesla, Tesla's"},{"startTime":1346.491,"endTime":1350.854,"body":"strategy, corporate strategy."},{"startTime":1351.345,"endTime":1353.582,"body":"We're gonna build a high price sports car."},{"startTime":1353.7,"endTime":1357.137,"body":"That leads to, that leads to, yeah,"},{"startTime":1353.7,"endTime":1357.137,"body":"we're going to use the revenue."},{"startTime":1357.769,"endTime":1361.45,"body":"from building a high price sports"},{"startTime":1357.769,"endTime":1361.45,"body":"car to building an affordable car,"},{"startTime":1361.684,"endTime":1365.447,"body":"the arrow that leads to further,"},{"startTime":1361.684,"endTime":1365.447,"body":"we're gonna use that revenue to"},{"startTime":1365.447,"endTime":1368.402,"body":"build an even more affordable car."},{"startTime":1368.92,"endTime":1374.293,"body":"And then while doing all of the above,"},{"startTime":1368.92,"endTime":1374.293,"body":"also provide zero emission electric power."},{"startTime":1374.538,"endTime":1376.147,"body":"So let, let's, let's talk about that."},{"startTime":1376.229,"endTime":1379.551,"body":"So building an affordable car based"},{"startTime":1376.229,"endTime":1379.551,"body":"on the revenue you're getting, while"},{"startTime":1379.551,"endTime":1381.242,"body":"providing zero emission electric power,"},{"startTime":1381.46,"endTime":1383.969,"body":"so the interesting thing here,"},{"startTime":1381.46,"endTime":1383.969,"body":"I think this may be what you"},{"startTime":1383.969,"endTime":1388.36,"body":"spotted there, stormy, is the"},{"startTime":1383.969,"endTime":1388.36,"body":"order that this is done right."},{"startTime":1389.087,"endTime":1391.169,"body":"Strategy first, and then it"},{"startTime":1389.087,"endTime":1391.169,"body":"rolls up under the vision."},{"startTime":1391.174,"endTime":1391.469,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1391.66,"endTime":1394.842,"body":"That's how Tesla's less"},{"startTime":1391.66,"endTime":1394.842,"body":"specific instance this author is"},{"startTime":1394.847,"endTime":1395.987,"body":"suggesting that's what happened."},{"startTime":1396.097,"endTime":1396.315,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1396.369,"endTime":1396.615,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1396.615,"endTime":1397.46,"body":"It kinda makes sense."},{"startTime":1397.678,"endTime":1401.115,"body":"It's a compelling, very compelling"},{"startTime":1397.678,"endTime":1401.115,"body":"case to me if I was looking at this"},{"startTime":1401.506,"endTime":1402.897,"body":"as a, you know, as a case study."},{"startTime":1402.901,"endTime":1403.197,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1403.851,"endTime":1406.387,"body":"so you have to know what that vision is."},{"startTime":1406.387,"endTime":1410.56,"body":"So I think what this is showing is that"},{"startTime":1406.387,"endTime":1410.56,"body":"vision still, number two, it rolls up"},{"startTime":1410.56,"endTime":1415.906,"body":"under number one, the mission, but what it"},{"startTime":1410.56,"endTime":1415.906,"body":"shows is that every other piece below that"},{"startTime":1415.91,"endTime":1420.16,"body":"vision is leading to meeting that vision."},{"startTime":1420.16,"endTime":1422.425,"body":"So the vision is guiding"},{"startTime":1420.16,"endTime":1422.425,"body":"every, every vision."},{"startTime":1422.429,"endTime":1423.297,"body":"Vision is guiding everything."},{"startTime":1423.297,"endTime":1423.478,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1423.515,"endTime":1425.915,"body":"Every piece along that,"},{"startTime":1423.515,"endTime":1425.915,"body":"along that continuum."},{"startTime":1425.915,"endTime":1426.951,"body":"Yes, I see this."},{"startTime":1427.674,"endTime":1430.237,"body":"My take on this is slightly different,"},{"startTime":1427.674,"endTime":1430.237,"body":"having just skimmed it, right?"},{"startTime":1430.292,"endTime":1430.374,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1430.374,"endTime":1431.71,"body":"I haven't had the luxury"},{"startTime":1430.374,"endTime":1431.71,"body":"of reading it yet."},{"startTime":1431.983,"endTime":1432.637,"body":"But what are you saying?"},{"startTime":1432.637,"endTime":1436.183,"body":"This author is saying that in"},{"startTime":1432.637,"endTime":1436.183,"body":"Tesla's example here, the vision"},{"startTime":1436.183,"endTime":1439.028,"body":"is realized through the strategy."},{"startTime":1439.033,"endTime":1442.456,"body":"If you scroll up, there's a couple"},{"startTime":1439.033,"endTime":1442.456,"body":"lines to that effect where was the"},{"startTime":1442.456,"endTime":1444.174,"body":"stuff between goals and vision?"},{"startTime":1445.156,"endTime":1445.51,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1445.565,"endTime":1448.947,"body":"It says if you start with your vision"},{"startTime":1445.565,"endTime":1448.947,"body":"before your mission, it's totally okay."},{"startTime":1448.951,"endTime":1449.028,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1449.033,"endTime":1453.092,"body":"Musk, start with the vision and"},{"startTime":1449.033,"endTime":1453.092,"body":"developed the mission around that."},{"startTime":1453.501,"endTime":1454.183,"body":"I was wrong here."},{"startTime":1454.483,"endTime":1456.856,"body":"What he's saying is get the"},{"startTime":1454.483,"endTime":1456.856,"body":"vision and then the mission"},{"startTime":1456.86,"endTime":1458.192,"body":"could be derived on top of it."},{"startTime":1458.192,"endTime":1458.337,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1458.337,"endTime":1458.519,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1458.592,"endTime":1460.647,"body":", even though the pyramid"},{"startTime":1458.592,"endTime":1460.647,"body":"shows it at the very bottom."},{"startTime":1460.756,"endTime":1464.628,"body":"the reason that we keep digging"},{"startTime":1460.756,"endTime":1464.628,"body":"into this is because so many of"},{"startTime":1464.628,"endTime":1469.183,"body":"these things can go wrong before"},{"startTime":1464.628,"endTime":1469.183,"body":"the roadmap piece goes, right?"},{"startTime":1469.537,"endTime":1469.674,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1469.674,"endTime":1473.192,"body":"If I have a leadership that is"},{"startTime":1469.674,"endTime":1473.192,"body":"projecting a mission and a vision"},{"startTime":1473.765,"endTime":1479.225,"body":"and is collaborating with me"},{"startTime":1473.765,"endTime":1479.225,"body":"at a team level on strategy and"},{"startTime":1479.23,"endTime":1480.998,"body":"goals, I can project a roadmap."},{"startTime":1481.025,"endTime":1481.107,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1481.325,"endTime":1485.389,"body":"all day long and everybody will be"},{"startTime":1481.325,"endTime":1485.389,"body":"happy and everyone will be in-line."},{"startTime":1485.389,"endTime":1489.603,"body":"But the minute that one, like mission"},{"startTime":1485.389,"endTime":1489.603,"body":"or vision or strategy goes wrong, or"},{"startTime":1489.603,"endTime":1494.266,"body":"we disagree or we, or, or even like,"},{"startTime":1489.603,"endTime":1494.266,"body":"the worst thing is like, we disagree,"},{"startTime":1494.271,"endTime":1496.612,"body":"but we then we don't want to talk about"},{"startTime":1494.271,"endTime":1496.612,"body":"it or we don't wanna fight about it"},{"startTime":1496.684,"endTime":1500.448,"body":"that's the worst because now we're kind"},{"startTime":1496.684,"endTime":1500.448,"body":"of running on two different roadmaps."},{"startTime":1500.639,"endTime":1500.803,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1500.83,"endTime":1502.657,"body":"Neither or once again, they don't exist."},{"startTime":1502.712,"endTime":1505.903,"body":"Or there's a, you know, a"},{"startTime":1502.712,"endTime":1505.903,"body":"three paragraph mission."},{"startTime":1505.957,"endTime":1506.148,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1506.148,"endTime":1506.421,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1506.425,"endTime":1507.212,"body":"Or vision."},{"startTime":1507.216,"endTime":1507.675,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":1507.68,"endTime":1507.803,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1507.807,"endTime":1507.975,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1507.975,"endTime":1512.23,"body":"So the three paragraph mis vision"},{"startTime":1507.975,"endTime":1512.23,"body":"that, that of course nobody like, how"},{"startTime":1512.23,"endTime":1514.112,"body":"can you, how can you possibly Yeah."},{"startTime":1514.639,"endTime":1516.812,"body":"Quantify like, and start"},{"startTime":1514.639,"endTime":1516.812,"body":"working towards that."},{"startTime":1517.112,"endTime":1520.466,"body":"So again, assuming these"},{"startTime":1517.112,"endTime":1520.466,"body":"things exist, right?"},{"startTime":1520.466,"endTime":1521.857,"body":"So that, that, that's the one thing."},{"startTime":1521.862,"endTime":1521.939,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1522.266,"endTime":1527.78,"body":"But  in my experience, regardless of"},{"startTime":1522.266,"endTime":1527.78,"body":"whether they exist or not, they generally"},{"startTime":1527.834,"endTime":1530.944,"body":"are not really ingrained into the culture."},{"startTime":1530.989,"endTime":1534.73,"body":"I think you've said this before where"},{"startTime":1530.989,"endTime":1534.73,"body":"you, you take the same question in"},{"startTime":1534.866,"endTime":1537.594,"body":"regards to what are we, do you know,"},{"startTime":1534.866,"endTime":1537.594,"body":"what's our vision at this company?"},{"startTime":1537.594,"endTime":1538.33,"body":"What's our mission?"},{"startTime":1538.33,"endTime":1541.548,"body":"And ask it of multiple people, the same"},{"startTime":1538.33,"endTime":1541.548,"body":"exact question, and you're going to"},{"startTime":1541.548,"endTime":1543.021,"body":"get a different answer from everyone."},{"startTime":1543.106,"endTime":1545.779,"body":"And that seems to be actually"},{"startTime":1543.106,"endTime":1545.779,"body":"the norm rather than the"},{"startTime":1545.779,"endTime":1547.361,"body":"exception, which is really sad."},{"startTime":1547.415,"endTime":1552.334,"body":"And you walk into that  in"},{"startTime":1547.415,"endTime":1552.334,"body":"my case, a product person and"},{"startTime":1552.879,"endTime":1554.534,"body":"they just want, and so they're."},{"startTime":1555.197,"endTime":1556.834,"body":", give me a roadmap, right?"},{"startTime":1556.915,"endTime":1557.897,"body":"I, I want a roadmap."},{"startTime":1557.897,"endTime":1560.625,"body":"I need to know what we're building"},{"startTime":1557.897,"endTime":1560.625,"body":"when we're building it next, right?"},{"startTime":1560.625,"endTime":1560.706,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1560.734,"endTime":1561.688,"body":"What's typical?"},{"startTime":1561.825,"endTime":1562.697,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1562.697,"endTime":1562.779,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1562.779,"endTime":1565.397,"body":"So that's generally what"},{"startTime":1562.779,"endTime":1565.397,"body":"you're walking into, right?"},{"startTime":1565.452,"endTime":1565.834,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1565.915,"endTime":1568.043,"body":"And how much power do you have?"},{"startTime":1568.043,"endTime":1570.079,"body":"Especially as somebody"},{"startTime":1568.043,"endTime":1570.079,"body":"new walking in, or mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1570.225,"endTime":1572.352,"body":"or even some transition or whatever."},{"startTime":1572.406,"endTime":1577.488,"body":"How much power do you have to impact these"},{"startTime":1572.406,"endTime":1577.488,"body":"other things that really are the, are the"},{"startTime":1578.152,"endTime":1582.37,"body":"baseline foundation of what I need to do"},{"startTime":1578.152,"endTime":1582.37,"body":"to build the, the roadmap appropriately."},{"startTime":1582.434,"endTime":1584.043,"body":"I think that's where Om"},{"startTime":1582.434,"endTime":1584.043,"body":"was kind of pushing us."},{"startTime":1584.088,"endTime":1589.056,"body":"I have an example here from another like"},{"startTime":1584.088,"endTime":1589.056,"body":"roadmunk like they have their own product,"},{"startTime":1589.061,"endTime":1590.611,"body":", let's, let's put that aside for a second."},{"startTime":1590.802,"endTime":1595.615,"body":"Like, I have a few examples that I"},{"startTime":1590.802,"endTime":1595.615,"body":"think actually are good roadmaps, good"},{"startTime":1595.615,"endTime":1601.388,"body":"roadmaps as opposed to if you have a"},{"startTime":1595.615,"endTime":1601.388,"body":"roadmap and it's just a list of features"},{"startTime":1601.388,"endTime":1605.834,"body":"you're delivering over times at the top"},{"startTime":1601.388,"endTime":1605.834,"body":"of the roadmap, you have a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":1606.015,"endTime":1607.706,"body":"Here's a few examples of roadmaps."},{"startTime":1607.797,"endTime":1611.679,"body":"Oh, by, by the way, if you are using"},{"startTime":1607.797,"endTime":1611.679,"body":"Azure, DevOps or Jira, you're not"},{"startTime":1611.679,"endTime":1612.825,"body":"gonna be able to get a view like this."},{"startTime":1612.825,"endTime":1613.806,"body":"So you need another tool."},{"startTime":1613.806,"endTime":1614.079,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1614.079,"endTime":1616.097,"body":"Like, this is not the podcast of tools."},{"startTime":1616.097,"endTime":1618.656,"body":"I'm not here to pitch you on a"},{"startTime":1616.097,"endTime":1618.656,"body":"tool, especially this one that I'm"},{"startTime":1618.661,"endTime":1619.665,"body":"showing you on the screen right now."},{"startTime":1620.075,"endTime":1624.938,"body":"But the point here is you see how two"},{"startTime":1620.075,"endTime":1624.938,"body":"the category, the sales category and the"},{"startTime":1624.965,"endTime":1629.547,"body":"marketing category, both have strategy"},{"startTime":1624.965,"endTime":1629.547,"body":"in them, I think be cool to be able to"},{"startTime":1629.547,"endTime":1632.056,"body":"split your teams delivering products."},{"startTime":1632.22,"endTime":1636.202,"body":"I think it would be cool to split them"},{"startTime":1632.22,"endTime":1636.202,"body":"up between the categories of what is"},{"startTime":1636.202,"endTime":1643.565,"body":"your team delivering that lends itself"},{"startTime":1636.202,"endTime":1643.565,"body":"to my corporate strategy or goal,"},{"startTime":1643.593,"endTime":1644.847,"body":"depending on how you can show it, right?"},{"startTime":1644.875,"endTime":1644.956,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1645.179,"endTime":1647.956,"body":"versus what are you doing to basically"},{"startTime":1645.179,"endTime":1647.956,"body":"like, you know, keep the lights"},{"startTime":1647.956,"endTime":1651.965,"body":"on or maintain or, you know, keep"},{"startTime":1647.956,"endTime":1651.965,"body":"your product in a functioning state"},{"startTime":1651.965,"endTime":1653.902,"body":"or ba, the day-to-day activities."},{"startTime":1653.984,"endTime":1654.038,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1654.175,"endTime":1655.947,"body":"Or the, or butter, is that correct?"},{"startTime":1655.947,"endTime":1655.948,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1656.129,"endTime":1656.356,"body":"The bread and butter."},{"startTime":1656.356,"endTime":1656.493,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1656.493,"endTime":1659.302,"body":"Or things that stay inside of your"},{"startTime":1656.493,"endTime":1659.302,"body":"product that don't really like"},{"startTime":1659.847,"endTime":1663.256,"body":"elevate your product out to the larger"},{"startTime":1659.847,"endTime":1663.256,"body":"organization if you have multiple"},{"startTime":1663.261,"endTime":1664.129,"body":"products in your organization."},{"startTime":1664.402,"endTime":1664.893,"body":"I like this."},{"startTime":1664.893,"endTime":1670.711,"body":"I also like the fact that at the"},{"startTime":1664.893,"endTime":1670.711,"body":"top in the key dates, milestones"},{"startTime":1670.984,"endTime":1673.356,"body":"swim lane, it has some flag."},{"startTime":1674.065,"endTime":1676.956,"body":"Um, it has some flags that I like"},{"startTime":1674.065,"endTime":1676.956,"body":"and some flags that I don't like."},{"startTime":1677.147,"endTime":1680.556,"body":"So the flags that I like are"},{"startTime":1677.147,"endTime":1680.556,"body":"the monthly recurring revenue"},{"startTime":1680.738,"endTime":1683.302,"body":"stars here at 250 and 400 K."},{"startTime":1683.329,"endTime":1685.129,"body":"And I like the funding stars."},{"startTime":1685.484,"endTime":1687.529,"body":"I like the funding deadline notes."},{"startTime":1687.529,"endTime":1692.178,"body":"I, I like the things that are set"},{"startTime":1687.529,"endTime":1692.178,"body":"in stone or, or the things that are"},{"startTime":1692.926,"endTime":1695.641,"body":"retrospectively identified on the roadmap."},{"startTime":1695.741,"endTime":1698.578,"body":"That's the way I like to think about"},{"startTime":1695.741,"endTime":1698.578,"body":"milestones is, hey, we don't have"},{"startTime":1698.578,"endTime":1699.614,"body":"a lot of power to change these."},{"startTime":1699.75,"endTime":1700.623,"body":"And they've happened."},{"startTime":1700.628,"endTime":1703.05,"body":"They're, they're not, they're"},{"startTime":1700.628,"endTime":1703.05,"body":"not swags and they're right."},{"startTime":1703.241,"endTime":1708.641,"body":"So the only time you can see milestones in"},{"startTime":1703.241,"endTime":1708.641,"body":"the future that are not re retrospective,"},{"startTime":1708.641,"endTime":1712.446,"body":"that have any merit to them are"},{"startTime":1708.641,"endTime":1712.446,"body":"things you know, regulatory things."},{"startTime":1712.5,"endTime":1715.555,"body":"You, you know, a certain thing's"},{"startTime":1712.5,"endTime":1715.555,"body":"gonna be happening in six months."},{"startTime":1715.555,"endTime":1716.4,"body":"That's, I like that."},{"startTime":1716.4,"endTime":1716.673,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1716.7,"endTime":1716.891,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1716.891,"endTime":1718.528,"body":"I like that on the road, in that"},{"startTime":1716.891,"endTime":1718.528,"body":"case, you can put that there."},{"startTime":1718.532,"endTime":1718.582,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1718.582,"endTime":1719.755,"body":"There's nothing wrong with it."},{"startTime":1719.8,"endTime":1722.405,"body":"the other thing I like here is"},{"startTime":1719.8,"endTime":1722.405,"body":"I like, look at the bottom one."},{"startTime":1723.041,"endTime":1723.914,"body":"Strategy and growth, for example."},{"startTime":1723.914,"endTime":1724.205,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1724.287,"endTime":1725.896,"body":"growth is a product metric."},{"startTime":1725.896,"endTime":1728.241,"body":"Like, just like retention"},{"startTime":1725.896,"endTime":1728.241,"body":"would be a product metric."},{"startTime":1728.241,"endTime":1728.323,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1728.568,"endTime":1733.373,"body":"or, or activation would be a like, Hey,"},{"startTime":1728.568,"endTime":1733.373,"body":"I want when I send out an email, say,"},{"startTime":1733.373,"endTime":1735.146,"body":"Hey, thanks for signing up to our site."},{"startTime":1735.373,"endTime":1736.818,"body":"What's that retention metric?"},{"startTime":1737.037,"endTime":1739.628,"body":"Hey, people that sign up and"},{"startTime":1737.037,"endTime":1739.628,"body":"sign in on a daily basis."},{"startTime":1739.632,"endTime":1740.773,"body":"What's that retention metric?"},{"startTime":1740.891,"endTime":1745.791,"body":"it'd be nice , if my corporate"},{"startTime":1740.891,"endTime":1745.791,"body":"goals have to do with retention."},{"startTime":1746.609,"endTime":1751.0,"body":", I would like to see retention"},{"startTime":1746.609,"endTime":1751.0,"body":"as a subcategory of what"},{"startTime":1751.155,"endTime":1752.528,"body":"the team is working on."},{"startTime":1752.718,"endTime":1754.237,"body":"Let me move on to another example."},{"startTime":1754.237,"endTime":1756.664,"body":"The top tier on this"},{"startTime":1754.237,"endTime":1756.664,"body":"example is called KPIs."},{"startTime":1757.209,"endTime":1761.873,"body":"If I could rename the top tier to"},{"startTime":1757.209,"endTime":1761.873,"body":"not be called KPIs, I would rename"},{"startTime":1761.873,"endTime":1764.028,"body":"the top tier to be called leadership."},{"startTime":1764.225,"endTime":1764.415,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1764.415,"endTime":1768.752,"body":"Because the items that are all, all"},{"startTime":1764.415,"endTime":1768.752,"body":"on here at the top tier are all things"},{"startTime":1768.752,"endTime":1773.606,"body":"I would associate with my leadership"},{"startTime":1768.752,"endTime":1773.606,"body":"of the whole organization or business"},{"startTime":1773.606,"endTime":1775.188,"body":"unit or business segment or whatever"},{"startTime":1775.225,"endTime":1777.552,"body":"and there's some things on here"},{"startTime":1775.225,"endTime":1777.552,"body":"that, you could set them as"},{"startTime":1777.552,"endTime":1779.788,"body":"goals, milestones, dates, right?"},{"startTime":1779.979,"endTime":1782.652,"body":"But also you could be view"},{"startTime":1779.979,"endTime":1782.652,"body":"in retrospect, you could say,"},{"startTime":1782.652,"endTime":1784.943,"body":"okay, we had 0.5 market share."},{"startTime":1785.079,"endTime":1786.552,"body":"We had 2.3 market share."},{"startTime":1786.688,"endTime":1788.161,"body":"We had 8,000 users."},{"startTime":1788.161,"endTime":1789.034,"body":"We had 12,000 users."},{"startTime":1789.034,"endTime":1789.906,"body":"We had 17,000 users."},{"startTime":1790.125,"endTime":1793.015,"body":"There, there's some things you could"},{"startTime":1790.125,"endTime":1793.015,"body":"say like, okay, by this date I would"},{"startTime":1793.015,"endTime":1800.352,"body":"like to, as a goal, have 5,000 users,"},{"startTime":1793.015,"endTime":1800.352,"body":"10,000 users, whatever, by goal."},{"startTime":1800.379,"endTime":1804.661,"body":"Everything you're doing in your roadmap"},{"startTime":1800.379,"endTime":1804.661,"body":"is in pursuit of your higher level goals."},{"startTime":1804.852,"endTime":1808.449,"body":"I wanna pause here to let us"},{"startTime":1804.852,"endTime":1808.449,"body":"react to the visual representation"},{"startTime":1808.612,"endTime":1810.712,"body":"of basically what we've been"},{"startTime":1808.612,"endTime":1810.712,"body":"talking about this entire podcast"},{"startTime":1810.931,"endTime":1814.831,"body":"You have a strategy,"},{"startTime":1810.931,"endTime":1814.831,"body":"Hey, we wanna grow users."},{"startTime":1815.022,"endTime":1819.385,"body":"Hey, we wanna make the application more"},{"startTime":1815.022,"endTime":1819.385,"body":"sticky, more time in the application"},{"startTime":1819.385,"endTime":1820.749,"body":"for you, whatever the strategy is."},{"startTime":1821.076,"endTime":1822.031,"body":"And then you have goals."},{"startTime":1822.331,"endTime":1824.926,"body":"Those goals are carried out"},{"startTime":1822.331,"endTime":1824.926,"body":"by product managers, right?"},{"startTime":1824.953,"endTime":1826.481,"body":"Taking little pieces of your goals."},{"startTime":1826.835,"endTime":1829.072,"body":"And executing them in what"},{"startTime":1826.835,"endTime":1829.072,"body":"they're responsible for."},{"startTime":1829.535,"endTime":1833.469,"body":"So I wanna stop here because we only"},{"startTime":1829.535,"endTime":1833.469,"body":"got to the visualizations we looked at."},{"startTime":1833.469,"endTime":1838.542,"body":"We only got to them by having a"},{"startTime":1833.469,"endTime":1838.542,"body":"clear strategy, and we only got"},{"startTime":1838.542,"endTime":1841.405,"body":"to a clear strategy by having"},{"startTime":1838.542,"endTime":1841.405,"body":"clear vision, vision and missions."},{"startTime":1841.542,"endTime":1842.36,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1842.364,"endTime":1843.833,"body":"So everything builds on itself, right?"},{"startTime":1843.86,"endTime":1844.105,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":1844.133,"endTime":1844.46,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1844.464,"endTime":1844.633,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1844.978,"endTime":1848.851,"body":"Any, at any misalignment of"},{"startTime":1844.978,"endTime":1848.851,"body":"any of these gets magnified."},{"startTime":1849.478,"endTime":1849.751,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1849.796,"endTime":1853.642,"body":"I don't want people to get outta this"},{"startTime":1849.796,"endTime":1853.642,"body":"podcast without being armed with,"},{"startTime":1853.751,"endTime":1855.305,"body":"with being able to ask a question."},{"startTime":1855.305,"endTime":1860.705,"body":"Hey, I don't see a clear mission"},{"startTime":1855.305,"endTime":1860.705,"body":"and vision, so I don't know how"},{"startTime":1860.705,"endTime":1864.442,"body":"I'm gonna run with the strategy"},{"startTime":1860.705,"endTime":1864.442,"body":"if I don't see these things."},{"startTime":1864.442,"endTime":1868.896,"body":"So if you are a product manager, I kind"},{"startTime":1864.442,"endTime":1868.896,"body":"of see your job as walking backwards."},{"startTime":1869.646,"endTime":1871.937,"body":"Uh, walking backwards in the organization."},{"startTime":1872.973,"endTime":1874.937,"body":"It's walking backwards,"},{"startTime":1872.973,"endTime":1874.937,"body":"stepping up upwards."},{"startTime":1874.937,"endTime":1875.403,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1875.619,"endTime":1880.364,"body":"Walking upwards, backwards, upwards in"},{"startTime":1875.619,"endTime":1880.364,"body":"the, in the organization to, to see,"},{"startTime":1880.364,"endTime":1882.192,"body":"hey, are these things not in place?"},{"startTime":1882.192,"endTime":1886.692,"body":"And if they're not, I'm going to"},{"startTime":1882.192,"endTime":1886.692,"body":"make it my personal responsibility"},{"startTime":1886.692,"endTime":1890.81,"body":"in the organization to vet these"},{"startTime":1886.692,"endTime":1890.81,"body":"things out and create them."},{"startTime":1890.973,"endTime":1893.701,"body":"Help the organization create them."},{"startTime":1893.946,"endTime":1894.028,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1894.469,"endTime":1895.937,"body":"so that it's easier to do my job now."},{"startTime":1896.101,"endTime":1901.237,"body":"But also like scrum master, as coach,"},{"startTime":1896.101,"endTime":1901.237,"body":"you could easily facilitate a session."},{"startTime":1901.428,"endTime":1904.21,"body":"I'm gonna bring you the product"},{"startTime":1901.428,"endTime":1904.21,"body":"people, you leadership together."},{"startTime":1904.537,"endTime":1908.055,"body":"I'm gonna throw my little miro board"},{"startTime":1904.537,"endTime":1908.055,"body":"up on the wall, put some swim lanes."},{"startTime":1908.273,"endTime":1909.528,"body":"What do you think the strategy is?"},{"startTime":1909.528,"endTime":1910.81,"body":"What do you think the strategy is?"},{"startTime":1910.919,"endTime":1914.328,"body":"How do we work backwards from the vision"},{"startTime":1910.919,"endTime":1914.328,"body":"from that and, and keep hammering that"},{"startTime":1914.328,"endTime":1918.251,"body":"out until we all agree and, if you're"},{"startTime":1914.328,"endTime":1918.251,"body":"an agile coach, if you're a scrum"},{"startTime":1918.251,"endTime":1922.487,"body":"master and you see that these things"},{"startTime":1918.251,"endTime":1922.487,"body":"are not in place, you can do a lot to"},{"startTime":1922.487,"endTime":1926.687,"body":"facilitate the creation of these things,"},{"startTime":1922.487,"endTime":1926.687,"body":"or at least, at least the, the making"},{"startTime":1926.687,"endTime":1928.605,"body":"them transparent to everyone else."},{"startTime":1928.933,"endTime":1930.296,"body":"It's in your wheelhouse, right?"},{"startTime":1930.296,"endTime":1932.914,"body":"If you're a scrum master or your an"},{"startTime":1930.296,"endTime":1932.914,"body":"agile coach, it's in your wheelhouse"},{"startTime":1932.996,"endTime":1934.36,"body":"to coach up the organization."},{"startTime":1934.469,"endTime":1934.796,"body":"Correct?"},{"startTime":1934.796,"endTime":1935.887,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1936.051,"endTime":1936.651,"body":"So feel empowered."},{"startTime":1936.896,"endTime":1938.614,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1938.614,"endTime":1943.042,"body":"What I would say is"},{"startTime":1938.614,"endTime":1943.042,"body":"absolutely agree with that."},{"startTime":1943.56,"endTime":1947.296,"body":", that said, as a, so if we go"},{"startTime":1943.56,"endTime":1947.296,"body":"to the product owner or product"},{"startTime":1947.301,"endTime":1951.887,"body":"manager who is more so the product"},{"startTime":1947.301,"endTime":1951.887,"body":"manager, but product owner too."},{"startTime":1951.978,"endTime":1952.878,"body":"I need this roadmap."},{"startTime":1952.905,"endTime":1954.296,"body":"You need to get this on the roadmap."},{"startTime":1954.296,"endTime":1955.523,"body":"You need to get this on the roadmap."},{"startTime":1955.523,"endTime":1955.578,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1955.578,"endTime":1958.333,"body":"And you don't have those"},{"startTime":1955.578,"endTime":1958.333,"body":"foundational pieces, right?"},{"startTime":1958.633,"endTime":1962.069,"body":"So you really do want to establish that."},{"startTime":1962.369,"endTime":1967.096,"body":"And to your point, hey, you could go"},{"startTime":1962.369,"endTime":1967.096,"body":"and you could, you could create these"},{"startTime":1967.096,"endTime":1974.06,"body":"things, but here's where I am feeling"},{"startTime":1967.096,"endTime":1974.06,"body":"like personally that that you lose so much"},{"startTime":1974.387,"endTime":1977.442,"body":"potentially if you are not collaborating."},{"startTime":1977.442,"endTime":1977.496,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1977.66,"endTime":1983.496,"body":"And getting input and, you know,"},{"startTime":1977.66,"endTime":1983.496,"body":"experience and different perspective"},{"startTime":1983.633,"endTime":1986.742,"body":"from lots of teams and, and,"},{"startTime":1983.633,"endTime":1986.742,"body":"and pieces of the organization."},{"startTime":1986.96,"endTime":1990.669,"body":"So I can create from my very"},{"startTime":1986.96,"endTime":1990.669,"body":"singular vision, but I also feel"},{"startTime":1990.669,"endTime":1992.796,"body":"like it is going to be inept."},{"startTime":1993.151,"endTime":1994.023,"body":"You make a great point."},{"startTime":1994.023,"endTime":1997.929,"body":"Which, which I, I will tell you, I,  I"},{"startTime":1994.023,"endTime":1997.929,"body":"have made this point many times, which"},{"startTime":1997.934,"endTime":2001.826,"body":"is in lieu of a vision, I as a product."},{"startTime":2002.531,"endTime":2003.431,"body":", I can make one up."},{"startTime":2003.631,"endTime":2007.176,"body":", the problem with making one up, however,"},{"startTime":2003.631,"endTime":2007.176,"body":"is, again, going back to my example"},{"startTime":2007.176,"endTime":2011.349,"body":"way earlier in the podcast, if one"},{"startTime":2007.176,"endTime":2011.349,"body":"of the founders disagrees with the"},{"startTime":2011.349,"endTime":2014.404,"body":"direction that I'm taking, because I'm"},{"startTime":2011.349,"endTime":2014.404,"body":"like, again, I'm just trying to, I'm"},{"startTime":2014.408,"endTime":2019.804,"body":"trying to take the wires of mission"},{"startTime":2014.408,"endTime":2019.804,"body":"and vision and I'm trying to just short"},{"startTime":2019.804,"endTime":2021.249,"body":"them together to make the strategy."},{"startTime":2021.254,"endTime":2025.504,"body":"And then just for the example of, of"},{"startTime":2021.254,"endTime":2025.504,"body":"engaging my development teams mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2026.022,"endTime":2026.84,"body":"to move forward."},{"startTime":2027.007,"endTime":2030.443,"body":"but if you, if you don't like those sparks"},{"startTime":2027.007,"endTime":2030.443,"body":"that come out of my, just shortening"},{"startTime":2030.443,"endTime":2034.6,"body":"those two wires together and, and"},{"startTime":2030.443,"endTime":2034.6,"body":"basically you, you work to undermine"},{"startTime":2034.6,"endTime":2036.291,"body":"me, now we have a much bigger problem."},{"startTime":2036.655,"endTime":2036.736,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2037.255,"endTime":2041.5,"body":", but I, I'm, I'm super concerned when"},{"startTime":2037.255,"endTime":2041.5,"body":"I'm again, I've been in the unique"},{"startTime":2041.918,"endTime":2044.882,"body":"position where I've had to negotiate"},{"startTime":2041.918,"endTime":2044.882,"body":"with different founders of company"},{"startTime":2044.909,"endTime":2048.618,"body":"inside of a company where they don't"},{"startTime":2044.909,"endTime":2048.618,"body":"all agree on the mission of the company."},{"startTime":2048.623,"endTime":2048.836,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2049.655,"endTime":2052.191,"body":", and I'm trying to build a,"},{"startTime":2049.655,"endTime":2052.191,"body":"and carry out a roadmap."},{"startTime":2052.614,"endTime":2054.195,"body":"Yeah, so I, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2054.359,"endTime":2057.85,"body":"It's a terrible position to be in, but"},{"startTime":2054.359,"endTime":2057.85,"body":"it's, it is, you need to drive back"},{"startTime":2058.014,"endTime":2062.405,"body":"to resolve the initial problems and,"},{"startTime":2058.014,"endTime":2062.405,"body":"and you, you meaning ohs like that,"},{"startTime":2062.541,"endTime":2066.168,"body":"that was a really accusatory of you"},{"startTime":2062.541,"endTime":2066.168,"body":"like you, the product manager, just"},{"startTime":2066.173,"endTime":2070.723,"body":"like the scrum master identifying"},{"startTime":2066.173,"endTime":2070.723,"body":"problems in the organizational design."},{"startTime":2070.795,"endTime":2073.877,"body":"The scrum master is not the"},{"startTime":2070.795,"endTime":2073.877,"body":"person to say, oh, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":2073.877,"endTime":2074.968,"body":"tell you how to resolve this."},{"startTime":2074.973,"endTime":2075.214,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2075.659,"endTime":2079.586,"body":", , the, the issue is you've discovered"},{"startTime":2075.659,"endTime":2079.586,"body":"a problem and you need to approach"},{"startTime":2079.641,"endTime":2085.014,"body":"leadership to say, Hey, this is an"},{"startTime":2079.641,"endTime":2085.014,"body":"issue let's all get together and"},{"startTime":2085.186,"endTime":2089.395,"body":"do you all agree  that we shouldn't"},{"startTime":2085.186,"endTime":2089.395,"body":"leave this room until we all agree"},{"startTime":2089.395,"endTime":2091.25,"body":"on the same vision for the company."},{"startTime":2091.255,"endTime":2091.45,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2091.85,"endTime":2094.605,"body":", usually if you're talking to the right"},{"startTime":2091.85,"endTime":2094.605,"body":"people at the top of the company, the, the"},{"startTime":2094.605,"endTime":2097.205,"body":"decision makers, the people that push the"},{"startTime":2094.605,"endTime":2097.205,"body":"company along, if you're talking to the"},{"startTime":2097.209,"endTime":2100.75,"body":"right people, they are the type of person"},{"startTime":2097.209,"endTime":2100.75,"body":"that will say, we're not leaving this"},{"startTime":2100.75,"endTime":2103.177,"body":"room until we all agree on the vision."},{"startTime":2103.832,"endTime":2108.677,"body":"I think the example you cited of you"},{"startTime":2103.832,"endTime":2108.677,"body":"know, multiple owners , not agreeing."},{"startTime":2108.682,"endTime":2108.759,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2108.786,"endTime":2109.795,"body":"It's pretty common, right?"},{"startTime":2109.8,"endTime":2110.105,"body":"Founders?"},{"startTime":2110.259,"endTime":2110.886,"body":"Founders, yeah."},{"startTime":2110.995,"endTime":2112.195,"body":"That's a very common example."},{"startTime":2112.441,"endTime":2116.259,"body":"And if left to its own devices,"},{"startTime":2112.441,"endTime":2116.259,"body":"things just will never improve."},{"startTime":2116.368,"endTime":2116.45,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2116.477,"endTime":2120.623,"body":"It takes somebody from outside"},{"startTime":2116.477,"endTime":2120.623,"body":"to come in as a trusted advisor."},{"startTime":2120.841,"endTime":2121.168,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2121.223,"endTime":2124.468,"body":"in your example, a product person"},{"startTime":2121.223,"endTime":2124.468,"body":"to come in and say, I see there's"},{"startTime":2124.768,"endTime":2126.214,"body":"common misunderstanding here."},{"startTime":2126.486,"endTime":2126.786,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2126.786,"endTime":2129.868,"body":"We need to get to a common"},{"startTime":2126.786,"endTime":2129.868,"body":"understanding group consensus."},{"startTime":2129.959,"endTime":2132.659,"body":", oftentimes that will be"},{"startTime":2129.959,"endTime":2132.659,"body":"successful because it's not one"},{"startTime":2132.664,"endTime":2134.859,"body":"of those three or n uh mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2134.995,"endTime":2138.864,"body":"saying, You know, we need to do this"},{"startTime":2134.995,"endTime":2138.864,"body":"because others are gonna say no."},{"startTime":2139.136,"endTime":2140.145,"body":"Yeah, I, I get it."},{"startTime":2140.2,"endTime":2141.155,"body":"I know what we need to do."},{"startTime":2141.155,"endTime":2141.291,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2141.291,"endTime":2142.109,"body":"I'm, I'm right."},{"startTime":2142.2,"endTime":2143.264,"body":"So I have two points to make."},{"startTime":2143.264,"endTime":2148.418,"body":"And that is that, so your example"},{"startTime":2143.264,"endTime":2148.418,"body":"with founders also can, can I think"},{"startTime":2148.464,"endTime":2154.709,"body":"be also applied to just any, any"},{"startTime":2148.464,"endTime":2154.709,"body":"executive Any executive any, yeah."},{"startTime":2154.709,"endTime":2155.091,"body":"High level."},{"startTime":2155.145,"endTime":2155.309,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2155.309,"endTime":2157.518,"body":"Any executive leadership"},{"startTime":2155.309,"endTime":2157.518,"body":"doesn't have to be a founder."},{"startTime":2157.682,"endTime":2157.764,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2157.818,"endTime":2161.309,"body":"But your executive team, the people"},{"startTime":2157.818,"endTime":2161.309,"body":"who are ultimately responsible"},{"startTime":2161.309,"endTime":2162.782,"body":"for the direction of this company."},{"startTime":2162.782,"endTime":2162.864,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2163.373,"endTime":2165.455,"body":"need to be aligned."},{"startTime":2165.455,"endTime":2165.927,"body":"Aligned, aligned."},{"startTime":2165.932,"endTime":2166.027,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2166.109,"endTime":2168.373,"body":"Whether they're founders or"},{"startTime":2166.109,"endTime":2168.373,"body":"not, they need to be aligned."},{"startTime":2168.373,"endTime":2168.673,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2168.673,"endTime":2173.227,"body":"And they need to have, and they are the"},{"startTime":2168.673,"endTime":2173.227,"body":"ones actually that are also going to"},{"startTime":2173.636,"endTime":2179.964,"body":"repetitively integrate that messaging"},{"startTime":2173.636,"endTime":2179.964,"body":"into the culture of our company."},{"startTime":2180.009,"endTime":2182.273,"body":"And, and like the product manager."},{"startTime":2182.614,"endTime":2185.723,"body":"is the person who, who can have the"},{"startTime":2182.614,"endTime":2185.723,"body":"most impact there, but they're not"},{"startTime":2185.723,"endTime":2190.441,"body":"the only person because again, we"},{"startTime":2185.723,"endTime":2190.441,"body":"don't ask leadership for things."},{"startTime":2190.441,"endTime":2190.523,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2190.741,"endTime":2191.314,"body":"often enough."},{"startTime":2191.423,"endTime":2191.723,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2191.777,"endTime":2195.568,"body":"And this is one of the things to"},{"startTime":2191.777,"endTime":2195.568,"body":"say, Hey, you seem to not align with"},{"startTime":2195.85,"endTime":2198.005,"body":"you know, leadership team member X."},{"startTime":2198.086,"endTime":2198.168,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2198.386,"endTime":2202.095,"body":", you seem to not be in alignment with"},{"startTime":2198.386,"endTime":2202.095,"body":"leadership team member Y on this thing."},{"startTime":2202.177,"endTime":2202.364,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2202.409,"endTime":2206.909,"body":"Why don't I, and both of you get"},{"startTime":2202.409,"endTime":2206.909,"body":"together and we'll just talk about it."},{"startTime":2207.127,"endTime":2207.264,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2207.264,"endTime":2208.3,"body":"Just, just to talk about it."},{"startTime":2208.464,"endTime":2211.464,"body":"Or, or if you're lucky enough where it's"},{"startTime":2208.464,"endTime":2211.464,"body":"one product and it doesn't intersect with"},{"startTime":2211.755,"endTime":2216.182,"body":"anything else, let's just get the team"},{"startTime":2211.755,"endTime":2216.182,"body":"together to talk to the two stakeholders."},{"startTime":2216.336,"endTime":2220.141,"body":"This is the part where we hammer in the"},{"startTime":2216.336,"endTime":2220.141,"body":"podcast over and over again about the"},{"startTime":2220.141,"endTime":2226.259,"body":"scrum master or coach being delegated"},{"startTime":2220.141,"endTime":2226.259,"body":"a bit of leadership responsibility."},{"startTime":2226.586,"endTime":2231.302,"body":"Because when, when two people don't align"},{"startTime":2226.586,"endTime":2231.302,"body":"somebody has to talk to them to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":2231.492,"endTime":2235.174,"body":"this is our mission and vision and this"},{"startTime":2231.492,"endTime":2235.174,"body":"is a strategy we're trying to carry out."},{"startTime":2235.311,"endTime":2236.238,"body":"How do you think about it?"},{"startTime":2236.702,"endTime":2239.674,"body":"Cuz this is the way that I think about"},{"startTime":2236.702,"endTime":2239.674,"body":"it and let's talk about the difference."},{"startTime":2240.065,"endTime":2243.147,"body":"I think about this selfishly for myself."},{"startTime":2243.174,"endTime":2243.992,"body":"This is a way I think about it."},{"startTime":2244.456,"endTime":2247.702,"body":"I'm breaking all these"},{"startTime":2244.456,"endTime":2247.702,"body":"epics down into stories."},{"startTime":2248.056,"endTime":2251.656,"body":"I'm talking to customers, I'm vetting"},{"startTime":2248.056,"endTime":2251.656,"body":"other users of the application."},{"startTime":2252.011,"endTime":2256.211,"body":"I'm working way more than 40 hours"},{"startTime":2252.011,"endTime":2256.211,"body":"trying to keep this stuff going."},{"startTime":2257.097,"endTime":2261.024,"body":". So it would be really nice if I"},{"startTime":2257.097,"endTime":2261.024,"body":"could delegate some of this internal"},{"startTime":2261.024,"endTime":2263.342,"body":"alignment stuff off just for help."},{"startTime":2263.697,"endTime":2265.433,"body":"Sorry, number two, do you"},{"startTime":2263.697,"endTime":2265.433,"body":"remember what number two is?"},{"startTime":2265.433,"endTime":2268.579,"body":"I do  because you kind of stole it from"},{"startTime":2265.433,"endTime":2268.579,"body":"me, but I, but it wasn't a, a complete,"},{"startTime":2268.583,"endTime":2271.606,"body":"and you should have like definitely"},{"startTime":2268.583,"endTime":2271.606,"body":"cut to camera just immediately."},{"startTime":2271.688,"endTime":2275.661,"body":"There is no short Brian comment,"},{"startTime":2271.688,"endTime":2275.661,"body":"so on, on that, on, yeah."},{"startTime":2275.688,"endTime":2275.933,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2276.206,"endTime":2276.779,"body":"So"},{"startTime":2276.806,"endTime":2280.733,"body":"but no, my second point actually"},{"startTime":2276.806,"endTime":2280.733,"body":"was that yes, empowered."},{"startTime":2280.733,"endTime":2285.47,"body":"So I, I hope that that our Scrum"},{"startTime":2280.733,"endTime":2285.47,"body":"Masters Agile coaches feel empowered."},{"startTime":2285.742,"endTime":2285.933,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2285.933,"endTime":2289.206,"body":"You know, to be able to"},{"startTime":2285.933,"endTime":2289.206,"body":"broach that, that subject."},{"startTime":2289.479,"endTime":2292.833,"body":"That said, to your point, if you are"},{"startTime":2289.479,"endTime":2292.833,"body":"lucky enough to have somebody on your"},{"startTime":2292.833,"endTime":2295.888,"body":"team as a product manager, collaborate."},{"startTime":2295.888,"endTime":2298.07,"body":"So open that door with them, right."},{"startTime":2298.07,"endTime":2301.124,"body":"Be, you know, maybe they are,"},{"startTime":2298.07,"endTime":2301.124,"body":"maybe they aren't seeing the"},{"startTime":2301.124,"endTime":2302.788,"body":"things that you're seeing and."},{"startTime":2303.374,"endTime":2308.092,"body":"and to have someone that could help"},{"startTime":2303.374,"endTime":2308.092,"body":"understand number one and where,"},{"startTime":2308.147,"endTime":2311.502,"body":"where you're coming from potentially"},{"startTime":2308.147,"endTime":2311.502,"body":"you might be as a product manager"},{"startTime":2311.756,"endTime":2314.947,"body":"helping them to understand something"},{"startTime":2311.756,"endTime":2314.947,"body":"they may not have seen Yeah."},{"startTime":2315.056,"endTime":2316.011,"body":"Or understood."},{"startTime":2316.338,"endTime":2320.838,"body":"And so to have someone else on your"},{"startTime":2316.338,"endTime":2320.838,"body":"team to potentially help facilitate that"},{"startTime":2321.338,"endTime":2324.638,"body":"from a product management perspective"},{"startTime":2321.338,"endTime":2324.638,"body":"as you're trying to collaborate and,"},{"startTime":2324.638,"endTime":2326.111,"body":"and get this done with leadership."},{"startTime":2326.411,"endTime":2327.392,"body":"Yeah, reach out."},{"startTime":2327.397,"endTime":2332.711,"body":"I mean, I have found so much value in"},{"startTime":2327.397,"endTime":2332.711,"body":"working with our, you know, our Scrum"},{"startTime":2332.711,"endTime":2337.347,"body":"masters and our agile coaches, and"},{"startTime":2332.711,"endTime":2337.347,"body":"truly just being, like really being"},{"startTime":2337.347,"endTime":2342.638,"body":"a part of that team as, as you know,"},{"startTime":2337.347,"endTime":2342.638,"body":"as we in general really should be."},{"startTime":2342.642,"endTime":2346.842,"body":"So it's not just about the, the, the,"},{"startTime":2342.642,"endTime":2346.842,"body":"the scrum master agile coach kind of"},{"startTime":2347.242,"endTime":2350.088,"body":"recognizing and stepping up, but I"},{"startTime":2347.242,"endTime":2350.088,"body":"would want them to be, feel empowered"},{"startTime":2350.088,"endTime":2354.206,"body":"to do that, but also for a product"},{"startTime":2350.088,"endTime":2354.206,"body":"manager or a product owner or, or,"},{"startTime":2354.211,"endTime":2355.897,"body":"or whomever if they're seeing a need."},{"startTime":2355.897,"endTime":2356.47,"body":"I see the need."},{"startTime":2356.47,"endTime":2356.961,"body":"Feel the need."},{"startTime":2356.961,"endTime":2357.288,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2357.588,"endTime":2361.515,"body":"And, and going and, and kind of"},{"startTime":2357.588,"endTime":2361.515,"body":"having that scrum master as the rubber"},{"startTime":2361.515,"endTime":2363.097,"body":"duck to talk through these things."},{"startTime":2363.097,"endTime":2363.179,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2363.479,"endTime":2368.142,"body":"bring, enlighten them to that and help"},{"startTime":2363.479,"endTime":2368.142,"body":"that, you know, help them to understand"},{"startTime":2368.147,"endTime":2370.106,"body":"and, and help them to help guide you."},{"startTime":2370.242,"endTime":2375.07,"body":"so what a great team effort y"},{"startTime":2370.242,"endTime":2375.07,"body":"you know, to collaborate on."},{"startTime":2375.424,"endTime":2376.942,"body":"It's a deep topic."},{"startTime":2377.024,"endTime":2381.156,"body":"I, I have to admit I, I, I want there"},{"startTime":2377.024,"endTime":2381.156,"body":"are more things I want to dig into here."},{"startTime":2381.347,"endTime":2384.32,"body":"We, well, look, and honestly, we didn't"},{"startTime":2381.347,"endTime":2384.32,"body":"even talk about establishing a roadmap."},{"startTime":2384.511,"endTime":2384.729,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2384.729,"endTime":2386.265,"body":"We didn't even talk about the"},{"startTime":2384.729,"endTime":2386.265,"body":"actual, that wasn't the point."},{"startTime":2386.265,"endTime":2387.402,"body":"That wasn't the point"},{"startTime":2386.265,"endTime":2387.402,"body":"of the podcast though."},{"startTime":2387.402,"endTime":2387.838,"body":"No, it wasn't."},{"startTime":2387.838,"endTime":2388.056,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2388.102,"endTime":2392.083,"body":"The point here was all of the"},{"startTime":2388.102,"endTime":2392.083,"body":"things that basically keep you from"},{"startTime":2392.083,"endTime":2394.483,"body":"establishing and carrying out a roadmap."},{"startTime":2394.811,"endTime":2398.483,"body":"Like you have to swim upstream to find out"},{"startTime":2394.811,"endTime":2398.483,"body":". What are the things that are missing?"},{"startTime":2398.483,"endTime":2398.92,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2399.029,"endTime":2401.238,"body":". And then you have to figure"},{"startTime":2399.029,"endTime":2401.238,"body":"out why they're missing."},{"startTime":2401.292,"endTime":2404.142,"body":"And then you have to seek to"},{"startTime":2401.292,"endTime":2404.142,"body":"resolve  why they're missing."},{"startTime":2404.242,"endTime":2407.342,"body":"And, it'd be nice to be like, well just"},{"startTime":2404.242,"endTime":2407.342,"body":"tap your leadership and figure it out."},{"startTime":2407.342,"endTime":2409.77,"body":"Oh, just tap your technical"},{"startTime":2407.342,"endTime":2409.77,"body":"leadership people, Silicon Valley"},{"startTime":2409.774,"endTime":2410.67,"body":"people tell you the whole, the time."},{"startTime":2411.024,"endTime":2414.57,"body":"Like, that's not really great"},{"startTime":2411.024,"endTime":2414.57,"body":"advice, you need to know why"},{"startTime":2414.652,"endTime":2417.179,"body":"things are not functioning so"},{"startTime":2414.652,"endTime":2417.179,"body":"you can build a great product."},{"startTime":2417.397,"endTime":2419.824,"body":"Like all of these things have"},{"startTime":2417.397,"endTime":2419.824,"body":"to happen in a certain order."},{"startTime":2419.915,"endTime":2422.742,"body":"You know, you need a mission"},{"startTime":2419.915,"endTime":2422.742,"body":"and a vision and a strategy."},{"startTime":2422.833,"endTime":2427.906,"body":"I feel we could do a whole podcast"},{"startTime":2422.833,"endTime":2427.906,"body":"on just corporate strategies."},{"startTime":2428.261,"endTime":2431.77,"body":"You should strategies like a, assuming"},{"startTime":2428.261,"endTime":2431.77,"body":"you have a mission and a vision Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2431.842,"endTime":2435.679,"body":", we're gonna assume that for the podcast"},{"startTime":2431.842,"endTime":2435.679,"body":"and we're gonna launch straight into"},{"startTime":2436.533,"endTime":2438.133,"body":"strategy and how those strategies."},{"startTime":2438.624,"endTime":2440.029,"body":"will look as goals."},{"startTime":2440.111,"endTime":2440.192,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2440.602,"endTime":2441.447,"body":"and maybe roadmaps."},{"startTime":2441.447,"endTime":2441.665,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2442.429,"endTime":2443.602,"body":"I feel that's so much content."},{"startTime":2443.602,"endTime":2445.565,"body":"We might not even get"},{"startTime":2443.602,"endTime":2445.565,"body":"to the roadmap level."},{"startTime":2445.647,"endTime":2445.702,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2445.702,"endTime":2447.865,"body":"It might just be strategy, goal, strategy."},{"startTime":2448.511,"endTime":2448.647,"body":". Yeah."},{"startTime":2448.647,"endTime":2453.12,"body":"And I think that that may be some of the"},{"startTime":2448.647,"endTime":2453.12,"body":"most ambiguous and, and the, the weakest."},{"startTime":2453.174,"endTime":2453.774,"body":"I think you're right."},{"startTime":2453.774,"endTime":2455.874,"body":"Part of, I think you're"},{"startTime":2453.774,"endTime":2455.874,"body":"right of, of that pyramid."},{"startTime":2455.874,"endTime":2458.42,"body":"You're, and understanding,"},{"startTime":2455.874,"endTime":2458.42,"body":"how to create those Yes."},{"startTime":2458.42,"endTime":2461.174,"body":"And how to create them in a valuable way."},{"startTime":2461.292,"endTime":2461.965,"body":"A absolutely."},{"startTime":2461.965,"endTime":2463.629,"body":"And I, and I don't think you learn that."},{"startTime":2463.629,"endTime":2464.792,"body":"I think this is a big gap."},{"startTime":2464.792,"endTime":2465.192,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2465.556,"endTime":2466.302,"body":"in certification."},{"startTime":2466.492,"endTime":2470.374,"body":"I think it's a big gap on, on like"},{"startTime":2466.492,"endTime":2470.374,"body":"online learning and, and and, and,"},{"startTime":2470.429,"endTime":2473.102,"body":"you know, podcasts and media and"},{"startTime":2470.429,"endTime":2473.102,"body":"articles and blogs and whatever."},{"startTime":2473.292,"endTime":2477.647,"body":"I think it's a huge gap assuming that"},{"startTime":2473.292,"endTime":2477.647,"body":"you know how to take the real base"},{"startTime":2477.647,"endTime":2481.974,"body":"level mission, vision stuff, and then"},{"startTime":2477.647,"endTime":2481.974,"body":"like translate through the middle"},{"startTime":2481.974,"endTime":2483.147,"body":"layers and come out with a roadmap."},{"startTime":2483.183,"endTime":2485.447,"body":"All the middle stuff of"},{"startTime":2483.183,"endTime":2485.447,"body":"dealing with people and saying,"},{"startTime":2485.556,"endTime":2487.047,"body":"well, how do we know Yeah."},{"startTime":2487.274,"endTime":2488.992,"body":"That this strategy is being successful."},{"startTime":2489.129,"endTime":2490.629,"body":"That's a great title for a podcast."},{"startTime":2490.629,"endTime":2493.002,"body":"All the middle stuff, all the"},{"startTime":2490.629,"endTime":2493.002,"body":"middle, all the middle stuff."},{"startTime":2493.002,"endTime":2496.638,"body":"I don't think that is a great title I,"},{"startTime":2493.002,"endTime":2496.638,"body":"I like, I think the, the better title is"},{"startTime":2496.692,"endTime":2498.247,"body":"how do we know that our strategy works?"},{"startTime":2498.711,"endTime":2498.874,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2498.879,"endTime":2500.729,"body":"How do we know where we're"},{"startTime":2498.879,"endTime":2500.729,"body":"actually getting there?"},{"startTime":2500.865,"endTime":2504.674,"body":"Like, be, because, because I if I"},{"startTime":2500.865,"endTime":2504.674,"body":"think through my career where I've been"},{"startTime":2504.929,"endTime":2507.283,"body":"challenged for evidence versus opinion."},{"startTime":2508.538,"endTime":2512.029,"body":"It's in that  how do we know that what"},{"startTime":2508.538,"endTime":2512.029,"body":"you say is leadership is our strategy."},{"startTime":2512.22,"endTime":2513.147,"body":"How do we know it's working?"},{"startTime":2513.365,"endTime":2516.209,"body":"And, and if it's not"},{"startTime":2513.365,"endTime":2516.209,"body":"working, how do we  shift."},{"startTime":2516.254,"endTime":2516.827,"body":"So I have one."},{"startTime":2516.827,"endTime":2518.3,"body":"So one last comment in that is, sure."},{"startTime":2518.345,"endTime":2520.063,"body":"So why is this important?"},{"startTime":2520.068,"endTime":2520.554,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2520.909,"endTime":2522.772,"body":"Why, why do you need this?"},{"startTime":2522.772,"endTime":2525.872,"body":"Because what happens to that freaking"},{"startTime":2522.772,"endTime":2525.872,"body":"roadmap if you don't have these things?"},{"startTime":2526.772,"endTime":2527.509,"body":"Chaos."},{"startTime":2527.672,"endTime":2533.487,"body":"So what you have is a bunch of things"},{"startTime":2527.672,"endTime":2533.487,"body":"that are being thrown at you from all"},{"startTime":2533.487,"endTime":2535.042,"body":"different places in the organization."},{"startTime":2535.042,"endTime":2535.451,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":2535.456,"endTime":2537.278,"body":"Who's ever screaming the loudest?"},{"startTime":2537.442,"endTime":2539.733,"body":"Who's ever has the highest priority?"},{"startTime":2539.733,"endTime":2541.801,"body":"Whatever customer is the biggest customer."},{"startTime":2541.801,"endTime":2544.092,"body":"Whoever's the biggest voice"},{"startTime":2541.801,"endTime":2544.092,"body":"in the room, whatever."},{"startTime":2544.283,"endTime":2544.419,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2544.474,"endTime":2549.16,"body":"That's what your roadmap ends up being"},{"startTime":2544.474,"endTime":2549.16,"body":"and is that ultimately what's going"},{"startTime":2549.16,"endTime":2553.551,"body":"to benefit long-term your company"},{"startTime":2549.16,"endTime":2553.551,"body":"and is providing the most value,"},{"startTime":2553.769,"endTime":2555.815,"body":"the most reach, the most impact?"},{"startTime":2555.86,"endTime":2556.569,"body":". Probably not."},{"startTime":2557.006,"endTime":2561.069,"body":"And the only way to know that is to"},{"startTime":2557.006,"endTime":2561.069,"body":"build that pyramid from the base up so"},{"startTime":2561.069,"endTime":2566.797,"body":"that you can make the proper decisions"},{"startTime":2561.069,"endTime":2566.797,"body":"when it comes to prioritizing what and"},{"startTime":2566.797,"endTime":2568.515,"body":"when things should go on your roadmap."},{"startTime":2568.569,"endTime":2569.397,"body":"Yeah, that's very well put."},{"startTime":2569.515,"endTime":2571.769,"body":"I think, you know, without"},{"startTime":2569.515,"endTime":2571.769,"body":"a solid foundation, all you"},{"startTime":2571.769,"endTime":2572.887,"body":"have are shaky structures."}]}