{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.019,"endTime":5.26,"body":"for today's podcast, are you on a scrum"},{"startTime":0.019,"endTime":5.26,"body":"team and do you share the members of that?"},{"startTime":5.659,"endTime":9.261,"body":"With other activities happening in"},{"startTime":5.659,"endTime":9.261,"body":"the business or do members of that"},{"startTime":9.261,"endTime":14.683,"body":"team do in sprint work in pursuit"},{"startTime":9.261,"endTime":14.683,"body":"of the sprint goal and production,"},{"startTime":14.683,"endTime":16.283,"body":"support work at the same time."},{"startTime":16.454,"endTime":19.911,"body":"So you're sharing team members"},{"startTime":16.454,"endTime":19.911,"body":"with different activities."},{"startTime":20.083,"endTime":21.769,"body":"That's what we're gonna talk about today."},{"startTime":22.026,"endTime":26.111,"body":"That's an awesome topic because you"},{"startTime":22.026,"endTime":26.111,"body":"mentioned spring goal, so you know it,"},{"startTime":26.169,"endTime":31.854,"body":"does the sprint goal in your case, include"},{"startTime":26.169,"endTime":31.854,"body":"supporting work that's already out there?"},{"startTime":31.854,"endTime":32.807,"body":"Never in production, right?"},{"startTime":32.807,"endTime":32.921,"body":"Never."},{"startTime":32.926,"endTime":33.111,"body":"Never."},{"startTime":33.15,"endTime":34.292,"body":"I I never heard of a Sprint goal."},{"startTime":34.292,"endTime":34.911,"body":"Never heard of it."},{"startTime":34.997,"endTime":35.311,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":35.511,"endTime":35.711,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":35.711,"endTime":39.254,"body":"So that, I mean, look, if it did, then"},{"startTime":35.711,"endTime":39.254,"body":"you, we wouldn't have this podcast"},{"startTime":39.254,"endTime":42.169,"body":"because it's already included in the"},{"startTime":39.254,"endTime":42.169,"body":"scope of the work for the sprint,"},{"startTime":42.169,"endTime":43.483,"body":"and then you're not sharing anything."},{"startTime":44.111,"endTime":47.683,"body":"Your team members are doing the work"},{"startTime":44.111,"endTime":47.683,"body":"of the sprint i e delivering the"},{"startTime":47.688,"endTime":52.04,"body":"goal, which is inclusive of supporting"},{"startTime":47.688,"endTime":52.04,"body":"production, but we realize that's not."},{"startTime":52.44,"endTime":53.069,"body":"Reality."},{"startTime":53.154,"endTime":53.411,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":53.497,"endTime":53.783,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":53.84,"endTime":54.669,"body":"This doesn't happen."},{"startTime":54.764,"endTime":57.935,"body":"People have their interests at heart"},{"startTime":54.764,"endTime":57.935,"body":"and they just say, go, go build this."},{"startTime":58.05,"endTime":59.65,"body":"What about this stuff"},{"startTime":58.05,"endTime":59.65,"body":"we just put out there?"},{"startTime":59.707,"endTime":60.078,"body":"Uh, yeah."},{"startTime":60.107,"endTime":60.678,"body":"Yeah, that too."},{"startTime":61.135,"endTime":61.507,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":61.707,"endTime":65.335,"body":"So on top of doing development work,"},{"startTime":61.707,"endTime":65.335,"body":"net new development work, your, your"},{"startTime":65.335,"endTime":67.935,"body":"team is supporting production work too."},{"startTime":68.392,"endTime":71.05,"body":"That's the, the, the nexus"},{"startTime":68.392,"endTime":71.05,"body":"of this podcast, I think."},{"startTime":71.459,"endTime":72.516,"body":"Do you wanna, do you wanna."},{"startTime":72.992,"endTime":77.735,"body":"by reading the Scrum guide and, and"},{"startTime":72.992,"endTime":77.735,"body":"the scrum guide's guidance on teams."},{"startTime":77.783,"endTime":83.554,"body":"Before we dug into this, I would've"},{"startTime":77.783,"endTime":83.554,"body":"put money on the Scrum team members"},{"startTime":83.559,"endTime":85.154,"body":"are dedicated to the scrum team."},{"startTime":85.269,"endTime":86.497,"body":"That, that was in the scrum guide."},{"startTime":86.554,"endTime":88.803,"body":"And I have since learned that"},{"startTime":86.554,"endTime":88.803,"body":"is not in the Scrum guide."},{"startTime":89.011,"endTime":92.783,"body":"So like, let's take us just"},{"startTime":89.011,"endTime":92.783,"body":"a second out of our Yeah."},{"startTime":92.869,"endTime":95.554,"body":"Discussion to read what is"},{"startTime":92.869,"endTime":95.554,"body":"actually in the scrum guide."},{"startTime":95.726,"endTime":97.183,"body":"He and I both would've lost money on that."},{"startTime":97.183,"endTime":100.24,"body":"Cause I believe the same thing, but I"},{"startTime":97.183,"endTime":100.24,"body":"was surprised to say it's not there."},{"startTime":100.316,"endTime":103.373,"body":"So here, here's the scrum guide and"},{"startTime":100.316,"endTime":103.373,"body":"here is the section I want to highlight."},{"startTime":103.373,"endTime":108.288,"body":"And for everyone listening on audio,"},{"startTime":103.373,"endTime":108.288,"body":"it says, the Scrum team is responsible"},{"startTime":108.288,"endTime":111.573,"body":"for all product related activities"},{"startTime":108.288,"endTime":111.573,"body":"from stakeholder, collaboration,"},{"startTime":111.659,"endTime":115.63,"body":"verification, maintenance, operation,"},{"startTime":111.659,"endTime":115.63,"body":"experimentation, research and development,"},{"startTime":115.802,"endTime":117.516,"body":"and anything else that might be required."},{"startTime":117.516,"endTime":121.316,"body":"They are structured and empowered by the"},{"startTime":117.516,"endTime":121.316,"body":"organization to manage their own work."},{"startTime":121.345,"endTime":124.059,"body":"Working in sprints at a"},{"startTime":121.345,"endTime":124.059,"body":"sustainable pace improves the"},{"startTime":124.059,"endTime":126.088,"body":"Scrum team's focus and consistency."},{"startTime":126.278,"endTime":128.85,"body":"Trust me, I checked because I"},{"startTime":126.278,"endTime":128.85,"body":"thought dedicated was in there."},{"startTime":128.85,"endTime":132.592,"body":"So I went back a scrum guide version,"},{"startTime":128.85,"endTime":132.592,"body":"just looking, I scoured the internet."},{"startTime":132.597,"endTime":133.535,"body":"It is not in there."},{"startTime":134.03,"endTime":135.23,"body":"I lost money on that one."},{"startTime":135.516,"endTime":135.888,"body":"I bet."},{"startTime":135.888,"endTime":136.716,"body":"At the horse race."},{"startTime":136.716,"endTime":138.259,"body":"And , I wish I could say I came out ahead."},{"startTime":138.259,"endTime":138.773,"body":"I did not."},{"startTime":138.802,"endTime":139.259,"body":"I lost,"},{"startTime":139.43,"endTime":141.63,"body":"I I lost on the same, same bet as well."},{"startTime":141.83,"endTime":145.383,"body":"But one of the things in that list of"},{"startTime":141.83,"endTime":145.383,"body":"things in the scrum guide that is not"},{"startTime":145.74,"endTime":149.84,"body":"actually detailed out, but it's, it's"},{"startTime":145.74,"endTime":149.84,"body":"included by, reference is documentation."},{"startTime":149.845,"endTime":152.326,"body":"Sometimes we'll say, not job, just"},{"startTime":149.845,"endTime":152.326,"body":"get somebody else to write it."},{"startTime":152.954,"endTime":155.611,"body":"Nah, anything else that's required, right?"},{"startTime":155.783,"endTime":160.202,"body":"So it's, it's the old unsundry"},{"startTime":155.783,"endTime":160.202,"body":"you have to do the work in order"},{"startTime":160.221,"endTime":161.707,"body":"to deliver full customer value."},{"startTime":161.735,"endTime":163.421,"body":"That basically is what it boils down to."},{"startTime":163.897,"endTime":165.459,"body":"You team that's doing all of that."},{"startTime":165.507,"endTime":170.145,"body":"I put that under the banner of"},{"startTime":165.507,"endTime":170.145,"body":"operation or or anything else, or quote."},{"startTime":170.202,"endTime":170.859,"body":"Anything else?"},{"startTime":170.864,"endTime":171.888,"body":"Yeah, anything I love."},{"startTime":172.278,"endTime":173.288,"body":"Anything else made in the scrum guide?"},{"startTime":173.345,"endTime":174.63,"body":"Well, change management is another one."},{"startTime":174.63,"endTime":177.402,"body":"They don't call it out, but"},{"startTime":174.63,"endTime":177.402,"body":"you need to manage that."},{"startTime":177.459,"endTime":182.116,"body":"You need to, you're introducing some"},{"startTime":177.459,"endTime":182.116,"body":"kind of deviation from the norm, right?"},{"startTime":182.173,"endTime":183.116,"body":"I e change mm-hmm."},{"startTime":183.345,"endTime":185.192,"body":". So you have to manage"},{"startTime":183.345,"endTime":185.192,"body":"that with your customers."},{"startTime":185.197,"endTime":189.307,"body":"Change management is, is an art as"},{"startTime":185.197,"endTime":189.307,"body":"well as, as much as it is a science."},{"startTime":189.364,"endTime":189.507,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":189.764,"endTime":191.935,"body":"It's not included here, but"},{"startTime":189.764,"endTime":191.935,"body":"I think it's covered by."},{"startTime":192.754,"endTime":194.078,"body":"Anything else, the umbrella term."},{"startTime":194.164,"endTime":194.792,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":194.85,"endTime":198.421,"body":"And there's probably a few other things"},{"startTime":194.85,"endTime":198.421,"body":"in there too, I imagine, upskilling"},{"startTime":198.421,"endTime":201.221,"body":"your customers to be able to use the"},{"startTime":198.421,"endTime":201.221,"body":"features you've just put out there."},{"startTime":201.25,"endTime":204.759,"body":"Right, right, right all of those things"},{"startTime":201.25,"endTime":204.759,"body":"are under the, that same banner, I"},{"startTime":204.759,"endTime":208.777,"body":"think , is the Scrum team doing that,"},{"startTime":204.759,"endTime":208.777,"body":"or are you just simply saying, we're"},{"startTime":209.092,"endTime":210.377,"body":"just gonna toss it to somebody else?"},{"startTime":210.377,"endTime":215.035,"body":"Or are you saying We do it, but we don't"},{"startTime":210.377,"endTime":215.035,"body":"really know how to handle that because"},{"startTime":215.039,"endTime":216.52,"body":"we're also doing development work."},{"startTime":216.577,"endTime":220.196,"body":"so we started with the topic of"},{"startTime":216.577,"endTime":220.196,"body":"being on Scrum teams where the team"},{"startTime":220.196,"endTime":221.968,"body":"members are not dedicated to the team."},{"startTime":222.387,"endTime":225.996,"body":"We started realizing that the topic"},{"startTime":222.387,"endTime":225.996,"body":"had to do with development, doing"},{"startTime":225.996,"endTime":229.377,"body":"support work on stuff that they"},{"startTime":225.996,"endTime":229.377,"body":"built and that's a regular thing."},{"startTime":229.511,"endTime":233.054,"body":"Well, also there's the idea that like"},{"startTime":229.511,"endTime":233.054,"body":"some, like if you have senior developers,"},{"startTime":233.054,"endTime":237.368,"body":"or especially if you're like, I I, there's"},{"startTime":233.054,"endTime":237.368,"body":"nowhere on here to introduce the advanced"},{"startTime":237.368,"endTime":241.303,"body":"concept of having,  enabling teams of like"},{"startTime":237.368,"endTime":241.303,"body":"senior developers or DBAs or whatever."},{"startTime":241.418,"endTime":243.075,"body":"They're never gonna be part of your team."},{"startTime":243.189,"endTime":244.189,"body":"They're all shared."},{"startTime":244.589,"endTime":246.075,"body":"That's not on this list Topics."},{"startTime":246.075,"endTime":246.846,"body":"Maybe it should be."},{"startTime":247.161,"endTime":252.418,"body":"But, the topic was sharing team"},{"startTime":247.161,"endTime":252.418,"body":"members with non-Sprint work."},{"startTime":253.303,"endTime":256.103,"body":"So a team member is dedicated to your"},{"startTime":253.303,"endTime":256.103,"body":"sprint that you are managing as a po."},{"startTime":256.775,"endTime":261.089,"body":"But also, they're doing"},{"startTime":256.775,"endTime":261.089,"body":"other work in the business."},{"startTime":261.318,"endTime":263.032,"body":"That could be work for"},{"startTime":261.318,"endTime":263.032,"body":"their technical leads."},{"startTime":263.032,"endTime":264.546,"body":"It could be work for"},{"startTime":263.032,"endTime":264.546,"body":"their direct supervisor."},{"startTime":264.546,"endTime":267.927,"body":"They actually work for, it could, could"},{"startTime":264.546,"endTime":267.927,"body":"be mentoring that, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":267.956,"endTime":270.984,"body":"Basically, anything that's not in your"},{"startTime":267.956,"endTime":270.984,"body":"sprint work dedicated to your sprint,"},{"startTime":271.299,"endTime":272.499,"body":"they're involved in that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":273.213,"endTime":276.984,"body":"So sprint work, meaning featured"},{"startTime":273.213,"endTime":276.984,"body":"development for your product."},{"startTime":276.984,"endTime":277.318,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":277.827,"endTime":281.056,"body":"But then they're doing production"},{"startTime":277.827,"endTime":281.056,"body":"support for your product in the field."},{"startTime":281.256,"endTime":284.703,"body":"But  again, cuz maybe like you don't"},{"startTime":281.256,"endTime":284.703,"body":"have a support department or maybe"},{"startTime":284.703,"endTime":287.57,"body":"your company's small, or maybe your"},{"startTime":284.703,"endTime":287.57,"body":"company's cheap and doesn't wanna"},{"startTime":287.57,"endTime":288.908,"body":"hire an actual support engineers."},{"startTime":289.594,"endTime":290.537,"body":"Many, many reasons."},{"startTime":290.68,"endTime":293.737,"body":"So the, the only guidance in the"},{"startTime":290.68,"endTime":293.737,"body":"scrum guide is the scrum team's"},{"startTime":293.737,"endTime":297.47,"body":"responsible for all product related"},{"startTime":293.737,"endTime":297.47,"body":"activities, my interpretation of"},{"startTime":297.47,"endTime":299.118,"body":"this is you build it, you own it."},{"startTime":299.318,"endTime":301.975,"body":"If you build it, yeah, you're"},{"startTime":299.318,"endTime":301.975,"body":"gonna support it forever."},{"startTime":302.203,"endTime":305.489,"body":"It's the, basically the fast and"},{"startTime":302.203,"endTime":305.489,"body":"furious of product development"},{"startTime":305.603,"endTime":306.918,"body":"happens in this bullet point."},{"startTime":306.918,"endTime":310.01,"body":"I think it's actually, The, the"},{"startTime":306.918,"endTime":310.01,"body":"more we read this portion of the"},{"startTime":310.015,"endTime":313.839,"body":"scrum guide, the more terrible I"},{"startTime":310.015,"endTime":313.839,"body":"think it is, because I don't think"},{"startTime":314.391,"endTime":316.448,"body":"terrible or is a word terrible?"},{"startTime":316.839,"endTime":316.953,"body":"No."},{"startTime":317.21,"endTime":318.191,"body":"Terrible terrible."},{"startTime":318.196,"endTime":318.658,"body":"That's not a word."},{"startTime":318.858,"endTime":322.477,"body":"No, but it's te it basically says if"},{"startTime":318.858,"endTime":322.477,"body":"your scrum team is responsible for a"},{"startTime":322.477,"endTime":326.915,"body":"piece of the application or the whole"},{"startTime":322.477,"endTime":326.915,"body":"application itself you now like you"},{"startTime":326.915,"endTime":329.458,"body":"now own it forever and ever amen."},{"startTime":329.658,"endTime":335.401,"body":"There's context here, and I think that if"},{"startTime":329.658,"endTime":335.401,"body":"you are starting up an application and you"},{"startTime":335.401,"endTime":340.124,"body":"have a very small team and you're founding"},{"startTime":335.401,"endTime":340.124,"body":"so  some startup, then generally everybody"},{"startTime":340.315,"endTime":342.086,"body":"everybody is doing a bit of everything."},{"startTime":342.086,"endTime":347.372,"body":"And yes, you are, you are as the"},{"startTime":342.086,"endTime":347.372,"body":"developing team, you're required to go"},{"startTime":347.377,"endTime":351.944,"body":"kind of above and beyond to make sure"},{"startTime":347.377,"endTime":351.944,"body":"that your product is successful, right?"},{"startTime":352.458,"endTime":355.201,"body":"But at some point that becomes untenable."},{"startTime":355.544,"endTime":358.458,"body":"At some point there is some"},{"startTime":355.544,"endTime":358.458,"body":"line in the sand and you're"},{"startTime":358.458,"endTime":359.715,"body":"going like, okay, wait a minute."},{"startTime":360.658,"endTime":365.658,"body":"We really do need to establish some"},{"startTime":360.658,"endTime":365.658,"body":"guidelines and, and something here where"},{"startTime":365.686,"endTime":370.439,"body":"we do have some kind of cutoff and says"},{"startTime":365.686,"endTime":370.439,"body":"we, we do need to support our application,"},{"startTime":370.439,"endTime":374.667,"body":"but at this point now we've grown a"},{"startTime":370.439,"endTime":374.667,"body":"customer base and we just can't have"},{"startTime":374.667,"endTime":376.153,"body":"every fall, everything fall on our team."},{"startTime":376.153,"endTime":378.924,"body":"And that's when we start kind of"},{"startTime":376.153,"endTime":378.924,"body":"expanding the team and we start creating"},{"startTime":378.924,"endTime":380.353,"body":"additional roles and things like that."},{"startTime":380.81,"endTime":385.658,"body":"And I think that's when that part of"},{"startTime":380.81,"endTime":385.658,"body":"the scrum guide where it's everything"},{"startTime":385.658,"endTime":389.086,"body":"in that sentence, in that scrum guide"},{"startTime":385.658,"endTime":389.086,"body":"would be applicable in some cases."},{"startTime":389.144,"endTime":395.182,"body":"But in not all, like every company has"},{"startTime":389.144,"endTime":395.182,"body":"their own situation their own roles"},{"startTime":395.182,"endTime":400.505,"body":"and resources and, and, and expertise"},{"startTime":395.182,"endTime":400.505,"body":"and in ways in which they split those"},{"startTime":400.505,"endTime":404.515,"body":"things up and, and transfer them in"},{"startTime":400.505,"endTime":404.515,"body":"and out of departments or whatever"},{"startTime":405.144,"endTime":410.172,"body":"ultimately I think it would"},{"startTime":405.144,"endTime":410.172,"body":"start in a very immature."},{"startTime":410.929,"endTime":413.01,"body":"Team or an immature product."},{"startTime":413.21,"endTime":415.096,"body":"Everything falls on everybody."},{"startTime":415.153,"endTime":419.21,"body":"But as you grow, I think is"},{"startTime":415.153,"endTime":419.21,"body":"where it there becomes some"},{"startTime":419.21,"endTime":420.896,"body":"kind of natural dividing lines."},{"startTime":421.201,"endTime":423.986,"body":"I don't follow where b actually"},{"startTime":421.201,"endTime":423.986,"body":"both of y'all are going right now."},{"startTime":424.158,"endTime":428.367,"body":"I think what you're saying is"},{"startTime":424.158,"endTime":428.367,"body":"we started with a small product."},{"startTime":428.653,"endTime":435.129,"body":"It got successful, it grew, it"},{"startTime":428.653,"endTime":435.129,"body":"became larger in scope and in usage."},{"startTime":435.496,"endTime":439.744,"body":"Basically, and the volume in which"},{"startTime":435.496,"endTime":439.744,"body":"support tickets and requests and"},{"startTime":439.744,"endTime":443.544,"body":"whatnot rolled into my team became"},{"startTime":439.744,"endTime":443.544,"body":"much larger for my team to support."},{"startTime":443.572,"endTime":445.829,"body":"Is, is that where we're going with this?"},{"startTime":445.829,"endTime":447.629,"body":"That's that untenable"},{"startTime":445.829,"endTime":447.629,"body":"part I was talking about."},{"startTime":447.634,"endTime":449.896,"body":"At some point it becomes where"},{"startTime":447.634,"endTime":449.896,"body":"support is the only thing"},{"startTime":449.896,"endTime":451.153,"body":"you can do and you no longer."},{"startTime":451.667,"endTime":453.239,"body":"The resources to even do development."},{"startTime":453.477,"endTime":456.236,"body":"I already disagree, about scaling."},{"startTime":456.321,"endTime":457.636,"body":"Like that's what we're"},{"startTime":456.321,"endTime":457.636,"body":"about to launch into."},{"startTime":457.636,"endTime":458.836,"body":"We're about to launch into scaling"},{"startTime":458.836,"endTime":459.321,"body":"basically."},{"startTime":459.607,"endTime":464.083,"body":"I think that to your point, I think"},{"startTime":459.607,"endTime":464.083,"body":"scaling is, that's what I'm getting to"},{"startTime":464.083,"endTime":468.769,"body":"in that, in, in that, that paragraph of"},{"startTime":464.083,"endTime":468.769,"body":"the scrum guide, when we're talking about"},{"startTime":468.769,"endTime":473.588,"body":"the scrum team and responsibilities,"},{"startTime":468.769,"endTime":473.588,"body":"that paragraph means something very"},{"startTime":473.588,"endTime":479.921,"body":"different to different teams based on"},{"startTime":473.588,"endTime":479.921,"body":"their size and their maturity and the"},{"startTime":480.217,"endTime":485.321,"body":"organization's size and maturity and the"},{"startTime":480.217,"endTime":485.321,"body":"manner in which they just, they, they,"},{"startTime":485.578,"endTime":488.74,"body":"I guess perceive product and in general."},{"startTime":488.74,"endTime":491.997,"body":"But I would be interested in just"},{"startTime":488.74,"endTime":491.997,"body":"searching the scrum guide for the"},{"startTime":491.997,"endTime":495.969,"body":"word scaling or scale, because"},{"startTime":491.997,"endTime":495.969,"body":"from what I recall, at least"},{"startTime":495.969,"endTime":498.226,"body":"the previous Scrum guides, they"},{"startTime":495.969,"endTime":498.226,"body":"really didn't care about that."},{"startTime":498.34,"endTime":502.455,"body":"They were just looking at the team as"},{"startTime":498.34,"endTime":502.455,"body":"though it was just a singular unit."},{"startTime":502.459,"endTime":503.426,"body":"There's no scale, right?"},{"startTime":503.426,"endTime":504.255,"body":"There's no scale, there's no scaling."},{"startTime":504.255,"endTime":504.997,"body":"So this is my."},{"startTime":505.474,"endTime":509.474,"body":"Argument to the argument, I guess, is"},{"startTime":505.474,"endTime":509.474,"body":"if you have, especially if you're a"},{"startTime":509.474,"endTime":513.617,"body":"small entrepreneurial outfit and you've"},{"startTime":509.474,"endTime":513.617,"body":"just learned something, you have to"},{"startTime":513.617,"endTime":515.302,"body":"babysit this thing in production mm-hmm."},{"startTime":515.531,"endTime":519.588,"body":", and at the same time, you're being"},{"startTime":515.531,"endTime":519.588,"body":"asked to either enhance it or come up"},{"startTime":519.593,"endTime":520.988,"body":"with a new product, whatever it is."},{"startTime":521.331,"endTime":523.645,"body":"This is not enough hands on deck, right?"},{"startTime":523.645,"endTime":526.559,"body":"You've got people bailing water"},{"startTime":523.645,"endTime":526.559,"body":"off the ship, you've got people"},{"startTime":526.559,"endTime":527.559,"body":"doing all of these things."},{"startTime":527.959,"endTime":529.274,"body":"How do you manage that?"},{"startTime":529.331,"endTime":530.674,"body":"That's the crux of this, right?"},{"startTime":530.674,"endTime":533.959,"body":"And what I'd like to do is throw"},{"startTime":530.674,"endTime":533.959,"body":"it, throw it back at you, Brian,"},{"startTime":533.964,"endTime":537.017,"body":"and say, I, I understand you"},{"startTime":533.964,"endTime":537.017,"body":"disagree, but how do you handle this?"},{"startTime":537.017,"endTime":540.817,"body":"Then I, well, well, first of all, let's go"},{"startTime":537.017,"endTime":540.817,"body":"back to the textbook before we jump into"},{"startTime":540.893,"endTime":542.817,"body":"any disagreement or agreement on this one."},{"startTime":542.817,"endTime":544.902,"body":"Let's go, let's go right back"},{"startTime":542.817,"endTime":544.902,"body":"to the scrum guide, okay?"},{"startTime":545.14,"endTime":548.655,"body":"The assumption is you're doing some"},{"startTime":545.14,"endTime":548.655,"body":"kind of scrum, scrum ban you, you"},{"startTime":548.655,"endTime":554.397,"body":"can see here, you can see here at the"},{"startTime":548.655,"endTime":554.397,"body":"top , I'm searching for M U L T, I'm"},{"startTime":554.397,"endTime":557.083,"body":"searching for multiple, there's only"},{"startTime":554.397,"endTime":557.083,"body":"three instances in the scrum guide."},{"startTime":557.083,"endTime":557.397,"body":"Multiple."},{"startTime":557.397,"endTime":562.055,"body":"So it says, if scrum teams become too"},{"startTime":557.397,"endTime":562.055,"body":"large, they can, they should consider"},{"startTime":562.112,"endTime":567.712,"body":"reorganizing into multiple cohesive scrum"},{"startTime":562.112,"endTime":567.712,"body":"teams, each focused on the same product."},{"startTime":567.94,"endTime":569.083,"body":"So there's that."},{"startTime":569.531,"endTime":571.378,"body":"Multiple increments may be"},{"startTime":569.531,"endTime":571.378,"body":"created within a sprint."},{"startTime":571.55,"endTime":571.836,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":571.836,"endTime":573.178,"body":"Multiple increments in one sprint."},{"startTime":573.255,"endTime":576.65,"body":"And then the last one is  talking"},{"startTime":573.255,"endTime":576.65,"body":"about establishing and committing"},{"startTime":576.65,"endTime":577.821,"body":"to a definition of done."},{"startTime":577.821,"endTime":580.193,"body":"If there are multiple Scrum teams"},{"startTime":577.821,"endTime":580.193,"body":"working together on a product,"},{"startTime":580.421,"endTime":581.736,"body":"they all kind of need to agree."},{"startTime":581.74,"endTime":582.507,"body":"Common definition."},{"startTime":582.507,"endTime":582.736,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":582.736,"endTime":583.136,"body":"Common definition."},{"startTime":583.136,"endTime":583.278,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":583.278,"endTime":583.393,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":583.44,"endTime":587.574,"body":"multiple increments within a sprint"},{"startTime":583.44,"endTime":587.574,"body":"that's kind of what I'm talking about."},{"startTime":587.574,"endTime":592.774,"body":"But I think, I think  multiple"},{"startTime":587.574,"endTime":592.774,"body":"cohesive scrum teams coming out of"},{"startTime":592.774,"endTime":594.374,"body":"one scrum team when they get too big."},{"startTime":594.517,"endTime":596.288,"body":"I think that's kind of"},{"startTime":594.517,"endTime":596.288,"body":"what we're talking about"},{"startTime":596.336,"endTime":600.097,"body":"If you have one product and it blows up"},{"startTime":596.336,"endTime":600.097,"body":"and you suddenly find yourself like if,"},{"startTime":600.102,"endTime":605.459,"body":"if you suddenly find yourself in fear"},{"startTime":600.102,"endTime":605.459,"body":"of success, like I would tell teams,"},{"startTime":605.459,"endTime":606.945,"body":"like when I used to be on contract."},{"startTime":607.459,"endTime":610.74,"body":", like not, not not even as a dedicated"},{"startTime":607.459,"endTime":610.74,"body":"product manager, I'm, I would tell"},{"startTime":610.74,"endTime":613.978,"body":"business leaders like, as like"},{"startTime":610.74,"endTime":613.978,"body":"their agile coach, I would tell them"},{"startTime":614.493,"endTime":619.283,"body":"the, the worst enemy of your teams"},{"startTime":614.493,"endTime":619.283,"body":"right now would be runaway success."},{"startTime":619.283,"endTime":619.597,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":619.597,"endTime":623.569,"body":"I would be your worst enemy because"},{"startTime":619.597,"endTime":623.569,"body":"you have no you had no control."},{"startTime":623.797,"endTime":627.883,"body":"You don't even have an idea over your"},{"startTime":623.797,"endTime":627.883,"body":"processes, like in a, in a small company"},{"startTime":628.359,"endTime":632.074,"body":"when you have to, when you encounter a new"},{"startTime":628.359,"endTime":632.074,"body":"business process and your people are kind"},{"startTime":632.078,"endTime":635.045,"body":"of taking care of it, and they're like,"},{"startTime":632.078,"endTime":635.045,"body":"well, I figured this out and I figured"},{"startTime":635.045,"endTime":638.417,"body":"out how to do whatever, and I, I kind of"},{"startTime":635.045,"endTime":638.417,"body":"rubbed two sticks together and the fire"},{"startTime":638.417,"endTime":639.874,"body":"happened, and then we were all warm."},{"startTime":640.274,"endTime":644.431,"body":"Like, your, your, your business"},{"startTime":640.274,"endTime":644.431,"body":"leadership should step in, then"},{"startTime":644.431,"endTime":647.545,"body":"whenever we need to start a fire in"},{"startTime":644.431,"endTime":647.545,"body":"the future, we need to figure out"},{"startTime":647.545,"endTime":648.574,"body":"the most efficient way to do that."},{"startTime":648.574,"endTime":650.088,"body":"Figure out who in the"},{"startTime":648.574,"endTime":650.088,"body":"company is the best at it."},{"startTime":650.202,"endTime":651.174,"body":"They need to teach everyone."},{"startTime":651.259,"endTime":652.688,"body":"And then we'll all know"},{"startTime":651.259,"endTime":652.688,"body":"how to start a fire."},{"startTime":652.745,"endTime":655.65,"body":"And then when you, when you wanna"},{"startTime":652.745,"endTime":655.65,"body":"start a fire, you go to this"},{"startTime":655.65,"endTime":656.878,"body":"person and say, what should I do?"},{"startTime":657.221,"endTime":659.393,"body":"And then your process is locked down."},{"startTime":659.393,"endTime":661.012,"body":"You know what your business process is."},{"startTime":661.336,"endTime":664.736,"body":"If you had small companies do that"},{"startTime":661.336,"endTime":664.736,"body":"reasonably well, but meet the large"},{"startTime":664.736,"endTime":666.078,"body":"size companies, you lose them."},{"startTime":666.078,"endTime":669.393,"body":"You, no not only you lose"},{"startTime":666.078,"endTime":669.393,"body":"them, but you lose your mind."},{"startTime":669.393,"endTime":669.84,"body":"Yeah, you do."},{"startTime":669.845,"endTime":675.597,"body":"You do as, as, as a, as a layer of middle"},{"startTime":669.845,"endTime":675.597,"body":"management tries to fight amongst one"},{"startTime":675.597,"endTime":680.255,"body":"another to decide whose person is gonna"},{"startTime":675.597,"endTime":680.255,"body":"teach the organization the best way of"},{"startTime":680.255,"endTime":684.169,"body":"starting a fire, even if they have nobody"},{"startTime":680.255,"endTime":684.169,"body":"who understands how to start a fire."},{"startTime":684.312,"endTime":687.455,"body":"That's assuming that they've"},{"startTime":684.312,"endTime":687.455,"body":"decided that they're going to find"},{"startTime":687.455,"endTime":689.797,"body":"someone to teach the organization."},{"startTime":690.274,"endTime":692.331,"body":"To, to start fires."},{"startTime":692.674,"endTime":692.959,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":692.959,"endTime":698.464,"body":"So using this analogy my experience is"},{"startTime":692.959,"endTime":698.464,"body":"this whack-a-mole kind of firefighting"},{"startTime":698.464,"endTime":703.878,"body":"thing where everybody it's coming at"},{"startTime":698.464,"endTime":703.878,"body":"them and they're just figuring it out."},{"startTime":703.936,"endTime":704.05,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":704.05,"endTime":707.25,"body":"Just however they can, to your point,"},{"startTime":704.05,"endTime":707.25,"body":"there's no leadership stepping in"},{"startTime":707.25,"endTime":711.221,"body":"and saying, what we wrangle this"},{"startTime":707.25,"endTime":711.221,"body":"in, we need to have a process"},{"startTime":711.226,"endTime":712.736,"body":"across the, across the board."},{"startTime":712.736,"endTime":714.993,"body":"Would you, would you call"},{"startTime":712.736,"endTime":714.993,"body":"that chaos Management?"},{"startTime":714.997,"endTime":716.307,"body":"Is that, can we write a book on that?"},{"startTime":716.307,"endTime":719.078,"body":"Our book is out next week,"},{"startTime":716.307,"endTime":719.078,"body":"chaos Management 2.0."},{"startTime":719.136,"endTime":720.736,"body":"Wait, I gotta make sure"},{"startTime":719.136,"endTime":720.736,"body":"that's not a real book."},{"startTime":720.793,"endTime":721.136,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":721.421,"endTime":722.45,"body":"That might be a real book."},{"startTime":722.536,"endTime":724.85,"body":"Meaning just, just, just taming the chaos."},{"startTime":724.878,"endTime":724.993,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":724.993,"endTime":729.312,"body":"Just, just throw some reins around"},{"startTime":724.993,"endTime":729.312,"body":"the chaos and maybe just, just ride"},{"startTime":729.317,"endTime":731.712,"body":"the chaos to victory over time."},{"startTime":731.769,"endTime":731.883,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":731.883,"endTime":735.597,"body":"That doesn't that's first of all, I'm not"},{"startTime":731.883,"endTime":735.597,"body":"here to say that works or doesn't work."},{"startTime":735.807,"endTime":736.559,"body":"Doesn't work."},{"startTime":736.559,"endTime":739.297,"body":"Doesn't work but, but also that's not"},{"startTime":736.559,"endTime":739.297,"body":"the topic of our podcast gotta bring"},{"startTime":739.297,"endTime":740.64,"body":"you back to the topic of our podcast."},{"startTime":740.64,"endTime":741.869,"body":"You're the one who brought it up, dude."},{"startTime":741.897,"endTime":743.012,"body":"So that might be a different podcast."},{"startTime":743.183,"endTime":746.783,"body":"Listen, listen, I, I bring so many"},{"startTime":743.183,"endTime":746.783,"body":"things up that are tangential."},{"startTime":746.974,"endTime":749.259,"body":"That was tangential was a word"},{"startTime":746.974,"endTime":749.259,"body":"on my calendar for the day."},{"startTime":749.431,"endTime":752.974,"body":"I bring so many things up that segue us"},{"startTime":749.431,"endTime":752.974,"body":"that you can't really hold it against me."},{"startTime":753.117,"endTime":756.088,"body":"So let's go down the road of,"},{"startTime":753.117,"endTime":756.088,"body":"you're part of a product team."},{"startTime":756.545,"endTime":761.107,"body":"You maintain a product for users, and your"},{"startTime":756.545,"endTime":761.107,"body":"product that's out there in production"},{"startTime":761.593,"endTime":764.078,"body":"occasionally gets support tickets in"},{"startTime":761.593,"endTime":764.078,"body":"that you have to look into and resolve."},{"startTime":764.078,"endTime":765.021,"body":"Let's go down this road."},{"startTime":765.059,"endTime":765.326,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":765.331,"endTime":765.507,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":765.564,"endTime":768.478,"body":"Because I feel, I feel that right now, I,"},{"startTime":765.564,"endTime":768.478,"body":"I feel there's a lot of people that are"},{"startTime":768.483,"endTime":770.336,"body":"in this segment of the business right now."},{"startTime":770.355,"endTime":770.545,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":770.621,"endTime":772.964,"body":"that could be helped by this,"},{"startTime":770.621,"endTime":772.964,"body":"this little tiny clip that"},{"startTime":772.964,"endTime":773.907,"body":"we're about to cut right now."},{"startTime":774.364,"endTime":774.593,"body":"Cut."},{"startTime":774.597,"endTime":774.907,"body":"We're cutting."},{"startTime":774.907,"endTime":775.65,"body":"We're pro wrestling."},{"startTime":775.65,"endTime":776.621,"body":"We're cutting a clip right now."},{"startTime":776.795,"endTime":779.366,"body":"So you start a sprint and you"},{"startTime":776.795,"endTime":779.366,"body":"say, Hey, we have this work."},{"startTime":779.366,"endTime":782.109,"body":"We want be, we wanna be dedicated,"},{"startTime":779.366,"endTime":782.109,"body":"we wanna punch out this work."},{"startTime":782.166,"endTime":786.195,"body":"But also, every couple days one of my"},{"startTime":782.166,"endTime":786.195,"body":"developers on the sprint gets pulled off"},{"startTime":786.223,"endTime":787.823,"body":"to look into a production support issue."},{"startTime":787.823,"endTime":789.223,"body":"They don't know how"},{"startTime":787.823,"endTime":789.223,"body":"long that's gonna take."},{"startTime":789.366,"endTime":791.052,"body":"Like you can't really estimate that work."},{"startTime":791.052,"endTime":791.938,"body":"You can't really bring it in."},{"startTime":792.195,"endTime":793.452,"body":"So how do you deal with that?"},{"startTime":793.928,"endTime":797.385,"body":"On, on teams that are like a Mor Mai band?"},{"startTime":797.442,"endTime":798.3,"body":"Mor band teams."},{"startTime":798.3,"endTime":800.1,"body":"Teams that are basically,"},{"startTime":798.3,"endTime":800.1,"body":"you make up a word."},{"startTime":800.128,"endTime":800.414,"body":"No."},{"startTime":800.414,"endTime":801.014,"body":"The real word."},{"startTime":801.014,"endTime":801.414,"body":"Check it out."},{"startTime":801.823,"endTime":802.585,"body":"M R I B U N D."},{"startTime":802.871,"endTime":806.242,"body":"These teams struggle with this"},{"startTime":802.871,"endTime":806.242,"body":"and they will do artificial."},{"startTime":806.285,"endTime":809.99,"body":"What things like, oh we'll just"},{"startTime":806.285,"endTime":809.99,"body":"take these two people here."},{"startTime":810.019,"endTime":811.647,"body":"Fred and Bob, or Bob and Mary."},{"startTime":811.876,"endTime":813.476,"body":"We'll put 'em over there to put out fires."},{"startTime":813.504,"endTime":813.885,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":813.966,"endTime":817.257,"body":"and the fires somehow don't cease."},{"startTime":817.304,"endTime":818.933,"body":"So there's fires every sprint."},{"startTime":819.247,"endTime":822.761,"body":"And these two people get burned"},{"startTime":819.247,"endTime":822.761,"body":"out by just putting out fires."},{"startTime":822.77,"endTime":826.704,"body":"they're, you will live basically"},{"startTime":822.77,"endTime":826.704,"body":"extinguishes, right when they"},{"startTime":826.704,"endTime":829.933,"body":"see their colleagues working"},{"startTime":826.704,"endTime":829.933,"body":"on bright, shiny, new things."},{"startTime":829.99,"endTime":830.076,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":830.361,"endTime":832.676,"body":". So then scrum masters come"},{"startTime":830.361,"endTime":832.676,"body":"into the picture and they"},{"startTime":832.676,"endTime":833.933,"body":"go, I know what I'm gonna do."},{"startTime":833.938,"endTime":836.676,"body":"I'm gonna rotate these people"},{"startTime":833.938,"endTime":836.676,"body":"so that they don't burn out."},{"startTime":837.19,"endTime":841.733,"body":"All they've done is just removed"},{"startTime":837.19,"endTime":841.733,"body":"any modicum of domain knowledge"},{"startTime":841.819,"endTime":846.076,"body":"that these two people in support had"},{"startTime":841.819,"endTime":846.076,"body":"built up and decimated it to zero."},{"startTime":846.219,"endTime":846.419,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":846.466,"endTime":847.314,"body":"that's what they've done."},{"startTime":847.314,"endTime":847.657,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":847.895,"endTime":851.895,"body":"So you're just, you're just basically"},{"startTime":847.895,"endTime":851.895,"body":"circling the drain at that point."},{"startTime":852.066,"endTime":854.895,"body":"So one of the things, going back"},{"startTime":852.066,"endTime":854.895,"body":"to your question that you can do if"},{"startTime":854.895,"endTime":857.695,"body":"you're forced into this scenario,"},{"startTime":854.895,"endTime":857.695,"body":"cuz you wouldn't volunteer into"},{"startTime":857.695,"endTime":860.495,"body":"it  you, you can just pick a number."},{"startTime":860.966,"endTime":862.738,"body":"Pick a number or don't pick a number."},{"startTime":862.738,"endTime":862.938,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":862.938,"endTime":864.223,"body":"So let's just go down those two paths."},{"startTime":864.252,"endTime":868.823,"body":"Pick a number and say 10% of the capacity"},{"startTime":864.252,"endTime":868.823,"body":"of this sprint is reserved for support."},{"startTime":869.3,"endTime":870.414,"body":"Am I right in 10?"},{"startTime":870.471,"endTime":871.071,"body":"Maybe not."},{"startTime":871.1,"endTime":872.157,"body":"Maybe it's more than 10."},{"startTime":872.161,"endTime":875.614,"body":"So just live it for a couple of"},{"startTime":872.161,"endTime":875.614,"body":"sprints and see and inspect and adapt."},{"startTime":875.785,"endTime":875.842,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":875.871,"endTime":876.214,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":876.271,"endTime":876.985,"body":"That's one approach."},{"startTime":876.985,"endTime":878.728,"body":"The other is don't even pick the 10%."},{"startTime":879.157,"endTime":881.5,"body":"Look at what happened,"},{"startTime":879.157,"endTime":881.5,"body":"yesterday's weather."},{"startTime":881.814,"endTime":885.3,"body":"Keep looking at it and go For the last"},{"startTime":881.814,"endTime":885.3,"body":"four sprints, on average, you spent"},{"startTime":885.738,"endTime":887.385,"body":"18% of our time doing support work."},{"startTime":887.671,"endTime":889.214,"body":"So how about we reserve 20%?"},{"startTime":889.585,"endTime":889.757,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":889.785,"endTime":892.823,"body":"And see how it works out,"},{"startTime":889.785,"endTime":892.823,"body":"that way, two things happen."},{"startTime":892.823,"endTime":896.166,"body":"One is you're not scrambling"},{"startTime":892.823,"endTime":896.166,"body":"to deliver the development work"},{"startTime":896.166,"endTime":899.738,"body":"of that sprint despite the fact"},{"startTime":896.166,"endTime":899.738,"body":"that you're fighting fires."},{"startTime":899.738,"endTime":902.842,"body":"That's the first thing, because the"},{"startTime":899.738,"endTime":902.842,"body":"worst case out of that is, yeah,"},{"startTime":902.842,"endTime":904.271,"body":"people say, we've, we're done."},{"startTime":904.3,"endTime":906.814,"body":"We've, we've met the sprint"},{"startTime":904.3,"endTime":906.814,"body":"goal, and to hell with the"},{"startTime":906.814,"endTime":908.042,"body":"quality, that's what happens."},{"startTime":908.385,"endTime":913.414,"body":"Well, the the other thing that will"},{"startTime":908.385,"endTime":913.414,"body":"happen is, You get the team to own the"},{"startTime":913.414,"endTime":918.557,"body":"work of the sprint, which typically is"},{"startTime":913.414,"endTime":918.557,"body":"the embodied in the sprint goal, right?"},{"startTime":918.785,"endTime":923.519,"body":"That includes develop this plus"},{"startTime":918.785,"endTime":923.519,"body":"production support, that is the work."},{"startTime":923.523,"endTime":926.547,"body":"It's not like we do production"},{"startTime":923.523,"endTime":926.547,"body":"support cuz we have to."},{"startTime":926.576,"endTime":926.947,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":926.995,"endTime":928.709,"body":"That pivot needs to happen."},{"startTime":929.338,"endTime":933.366,"body":"The work is the work, which means"},{"startTime":929.338,"endTime":933.366,"body":"production support plus development."},{"startTime":934.052,"endTime":935.595,"body":"Ameliorate that going forward."},{"startTime":935.995,"endTime":937.423,"body":"That's my 2 cents worth."},{"startTime":937.481,"endTime":938.481,"body":"Well, what, 8 cents worth."},{"startTime":938.576,"endTime":939.947,"body":"So that makes sense to me."},{"startTime":940.423,"endTime":944.481,"body":"But if you're doing, if you have a sprint"},{"startTime":940.423,"endTime":944.481,"body":"with a sprint goal and you have work items"},{"startTime":944.481,"endTime":949.814,"body":"or whatever that come into the sprint, how"},{"startTime":944.481,"endTime":949.814,"body":"do you visualize that that work alongside"},{"startTime":950.309,"endTime":953.957,"body":"you could have never predicted that"},{"startTime":950.309,"endTime":953.957,"body":"three support items would roll in, in the"},{"startTime":953.961,"endTime":956.614,"body":"middle of your sprint while your team's"},{"startTime":953.961,"endTime":956.614,"body":"trying to punch out these new features."},{"startTime":956.671,"endTime":956.757,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":956.814,"endTime":958.757,"body":"Because it's the same"},{"startTime":956.814,"endTime":958.757,"body":"team members servicing."},{"startTime":959.207,"endTime":960.984,"body":"backlogs or I don't, are"},{"startTime":959.207,"endTime":960.984,"body":"they different backlog?"},{"startTime":960.984,"endTime":961.412,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":961.498,"endTime":962.327,"body":"Like how do you visualize?"},{"startTime":962.384,"endTime":962.984,"body":"Are they different?"},{"startTime":962.984,"endTime":965.584,"body":"That's a tremendous question cuz"},{"startTime":962.984,"endTime":965.584,"body":"this is, this is something that"},{"startTime":965.584,"endTime":967.069,"body":"challenges teams all the time, right?"},{"startTime":967.074,"endTime":967.155,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":967.155,"endTime":968.269,"body":"How do you visualize it?"},{"startTime":968.469,"endTime":968.584,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":968.584,"endTime":971.041,"body":"Cause if you can't visualize it,"},{"startTime":968.584,"endTime":971.041,"body":"you can't actualize on it, right?"},{"startTime":971.041,"endTime":975.127,"body":"So one of the things that I say"},{"startTime":971.041,"endTime":975.127,"body":"is just keep one backlog, right?"},{"startTime":975.403,"endTime":977.803,"body":"Because that way you're pulling"},{"startTime":975.403,"endTime":977.803,"body":"from a singular backlog."},{"startTime":977.888,"endTime":978.746,"body":"On that backlog."},{"startTime":978.746,"endTime":983.574,"body":"You have work items that say develop"},{"startTime":978.746,"endTime":983.574,"body":"this, develop that, or work items"},{"startTime":983.574,"endTime":985.803,"body":"that say support this, support that."},{"startTime":985.86,"endTime":986.146,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":986.174,"endTime":987.66,"body":"Always start with the verb, right?"},{"startTime":987.917,"endTime":992.631,"body":"so what happens is the team"},{"startTime":987.917,"endTime":992.631,"body":"sees on the board all the work"},{"startTime":992.631,"endTime":993.488,"body":"that they have to develop."},{"startTime":993.493,"endTime":997.174,"body":"Maybe above that there's a lane"},{"startTime":993.493,"endTime":997.174,"body":"that says firefighting or whatever."},{"startTime":997.288,"endTime":999.946,"body":"You can pick your own metaphor"},{"startTime":997.288,"endTime":999.946,"body":"and, and put that work in there."},{"startTime":1000.774,"endTime":1001.66,"body":"The next step."},{"startTime":1002.374,"endTime":1006.088,"body":"People on the team own all of that work."},{"startTime":1006.26,"endTime":1009.346,"body":"So it's not like, oh, these two people"},{"startTime":1006.26,"endTime":1009.346,"body":"are always dedicated to firefighting."},{"startTime":1009.374,"endTime":1009.631,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1009.631,"endTime":1012.117,"body":"So it comes down to, here's an issue."},{"startTime":1012.46,"endTime":1014.117,"body":"Who can best help with this?"},{"startTime":1014.574,"endTime":1017.86,"body":"The developer that developed that"},{"startTime":1014.574,"endTime":1017.86,"body":"piece of functionality might be the"},{"startTime":1017.865,"endTime":1019.317,"body":"best person to investigate that."},{"startTime":1019.317,"endTime":1022.803,"body":"Perhaps they may be working on"},{"startTime":1019.317,"endTime":1022.803,"body":"something else when that happens."},{"startTime":1022.803,"endTime":1025.146,"body":"I'm assuming this is not a clean Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1025.146,"endTime":1027.774,"body":"We start the sprint off with these"},{"startTime":1025.146,"endTime":1027.774,"body":"items that we have to support."},{"startTime":1027.774,"endTime":1029.803,"body":"It's like it just crops"},{"startTime":1027.774,"endTime":1029.803,"body":"up whenever, right?"},{"startTime":1029.803,"endTime":1030.688,"body":"You're playing whack-a-mole."},{"startTime":1030.822,"endTime":1031.203,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1031.207,"endTime":1033.974,"body":"So you're on the third day of"},{"startTime":1031.207,"endTime":1033.974,"body":"the sprint or the ninth day of"},{"startTime":1033.979,"endTime":1035.174,"body":"the sprint, something shows up."},{"startTime":1035.688,"endTime":1039.974,"body":"Reserve the capacity to kind of"},{"startTime":1035.688,"endTime":1039.974,"body":"work with that, but just look at it"},{"startTime":1039.974,"endTime":1041.574,"body":"and say, who's best able to help?"},{"startTime":1041.66,"endTime":1044.317,"body":"And the best way to do that is"},{"startTime":1041.66,"endTime":1044.317,"body":"to have a discussion with the"},{"startTime":1044.317,"endTime":1045.946,"body":"team and say, here's an issue."},{"startTime":1045.946,"endTime":1048.86,"body":"Who can help and encourage people"},{"startTime":1045.946,"endTime":1048.86,"body":"to put their hand up and go, yeah,"},{"startTime":1048.86,"endTime":1049.688,"body":"it has something to do with that."},{"startTime":1049.688,"endTime":1050.774,"body":"Maybe I can look into it."},{"startTime":1051.317,"endTime":1052.403,"body":"What are you working on today?"},{"startTime":1052.546,"endTime":1053.574,"body":"I'm working on this."},{"startTime":1053.803,"endTime":1055.288,"body":"Who can help work on that?"},{"startTime":1055.56,"endTime":1055.874,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1055.879,"endTime":1059.988,"body":"And then the work and the work with"},{"startTime":1055.879,"endTime":1059.988,"body":"the partner to say, we have this thing"},{"startTime":1059.988,"endTime":1061.388,"body":"coming up, what would you like to do?"},{"startTime":1061.388,"endTime":1062.188,"body":"Prioritize it."},{"startTime":1062.188,"endTime":1062.417,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1062.446,"endTime":1065.503,"body":"They may say, yeah, this thing's off a"},{"startTime":1062.446,"endTime":1065.503,"body":"few pixels, we can fix it next sprint."},{"startTime":1065.788,"endTime":1069.931,"body":"Or Yeah, move this guy, Kevin,"},{"startTime":1065.788,"endTime":1069.931,"body":"you're now working on this, right?"},{"startTime":1070.188,"endTime":1072.96,"body":"And whatever you are working"},{"startTime":1070.188,"endTime":1072.96,"body":"on, I'm okay to let it slide."},{"startTime":1073.274,"endTime":1073.903,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1074.017,"endTime":1075.96,"body":"That, that's the decision"},{"startTime":1074.017,"endTime":1075.96,"body":"that PO makes all the time."},{"startTime":1075.96,"endTime":1076.188,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1076.246,"endTime":1076.36,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1076.436,"endTime":1080.969,"body":"Once it's in at the team level, to"},{"startTime":1076.436,"endTime":1080.969,"body":"your point consult with your team."},{"startTime":1081.341,"endTime":1085.912,"body":"But I would say prior to it, getting to"},{"startTime":1081.341,"endTime":1085.912,"body":"that point to start having a conversation,"},{"startTime":1085.912,"endTime":1088.569,"body":"I, this is something that's coming"},{"startTime":1085.912,"endTime":1088.569,"body":"about over and over again to have the"},{"startTime":1088.569,"endTime":1091.741,"body":"larger conversation of how to deal"},{"startTime":1088.569,"endTime":1091.741,"body":"with the root cause of this, right?"},{"startTime":1091.969,"endTime":1095.341,"body":"So instead of dealing with it each"},{"startTime":1091.969,"endTime":1095.341,"body":"and every sprint try to start to"},{"startTime":1095.346,"endTime":1098.855,"body":"try to figure out, okay, is there"},{"startTime":1095.346,"endTime":1098.855,"body":"a way for us to mitigate this?"},{"startTime":1099.312,"endTime":1099.941,"body":"Ahead of time."},{"startTime":1099.946,"endTime":1104.798,"body":"Maybe there isn't, but having that larger"},{"startTime":1099.946,"endTime":1104.798,"body":"conversation with the team to have an"},{"startTime":1104.798,"endTime":1106.084,"body":"understanding of how to handle that."},{"startTime":1106.112,"endTime":1107.169,"body":"That's point number one."},{"startTime":1107.731,"endTime":1111.293,"body":"Two, I just, I would say that I, I"},{"startTime":1107.731,"endTime":1111.293,"body":"literally am living this right now and,"},{"startTime":1111.298,"endTime":1117.474,"body":"and I think there's so much dependent on"},{"startTime":1111.298,"endTime":1117.474,"body":"the, the, the team, the team structure,"},{"startTime":1117.512,"endTime":1122.103,"body":"the level of of expertise of the"},{"startTime":1117.512,"endTime":1122.103,"body":"developers and, and their knowledge"},{"startTime":1122.103,"endTime":1124.188,"body":"base and what they're comfortable with."},{"startTime":1124.188,"endTime":1128.56,"body":"I have one person on my team,"},{"startTime":1124.188,"endTime":1128.56,"body":"and all she does is bugs."},{"startTime":1129.322,"endTime":1131.103,"body":"That goes back to my previous point."},{"startTime":1131.16,"endTime":1131.788,"body":"Understood."},{"startTime":1131.855,"endTime":1133.655,"body":"So basically I have a team."},{"startTime":1133.703,"endTime":1136.874,"body":"This was all created before I ever came"},{"startTime":1133.703,"endTime":1136.874,"body":"on but essentially what I have is a"},{"startTime":1136.874,"endTime":1141.617,"body":"team of senior, a team, but on this team"},{"startTime":1136.874,"endTime":1141.617,"body":"it's really been naturally a separation"},{"startTime":1141.617,"endTime":1143.474,"body":"between senior and junior developers."},{"startTime":1143.874,"endTime":1146.217,"body":"The senior developers are the long"},{"startTime":1143.874,"endTime":1146.217,"body":"term, they really are the ones"},{"startTime":1146.217,"endTime":1148.831,"body":"who've written this code from the"},{"startTime":1146.217,"endTime":1148.831,"body":"of beginning of time, literally."},{"startTime":1149.26,"endTime":1151.86,"body":"And there's, so there's a"},{"startTime":1149.26,"endTime":1151.86,"body":"lot of trust issue on letting"},{"startTime":1151.86,"endTime":1153.26,"body":"anybody else touch their code."},{"startTime":1153.26,"endTime":1155.146,"body":"There's that stuff that's going on, right?"},{"startTime":1155.146,"endTime":1156.622,"body":"This is my code, don't there's that."},{"startTime":1156.622,"endTime":1158.25,"body":"So that's a whole kind of"},{"startTime":1156.622,"endTime":1158.25,"body":"indifferent thing maybe."},{"startTime":1158.25,"endTime":1158.507,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1158.593,"endTime":1159.736,"body":"A whole different conversation."},{"startTime":1159.765,"endTime":1160.107,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1160.593,"endTime":1165.536,"body":"But there was this natural division"},{"startTime":1160.593,"endTime":1165.536,"body":"already where I actually had a support"},{"startTime":1165.536,"endTime":1168.197,"body":"team living in my development team."},{"startTime":1168.312,"endTime":1168.54,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1169.197,"endTime":1173.559,"body":"So I am right now, and this is what I was"},{"startTime":1169.197,"endTime":1173.559,"body":"kind of talking to you about, is trying"},{"startTime":1173.559,"endTime":1175.702,"body":"to create a separate con bond board."},{"startTime":1175.702,"endTime":1180.788,"body":"Because what they're trying to do is"},{"startTime":1175.702,"endTime":1180.788,"body":"create sprints and all of these bugs"},{"startTime":1180.788,"endTime":1183.731,"body":"and fires keep coming in and blowing"},{"startTime":1180.788,"endTime":1183.731,"body":"things out of the bottom, right?"},{"startTime":1183.731,"endTime":1183.816,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1184.102,"endTime":1189.531,"body":"So my hypothesis is I would like to"},{"startTime":1184.102,"endTime":1189.531,"body":"sep you guys are already doing this."},{"startTime":1189.531,"endTime":1190.845,"body":"You're already throwing all these things."},{"startTime":1190.85,"endTime":1193.274,"body":"You're doing bugs and reporting"},{"startTime":1190.85,"endTime":1193.274,"body":"and all these kind of keeping"},{"startTime":1193.274,"endTime":1196.74,"body":"the  lights, on things are, those"},{"startTime":1193.274,"endTime":1196.74,"body":"are automatically being assigned"},{"startTime":1196.74,"endTime":1198.74,"body":"to somebody, this half of the team."},{"startTime":1199.397,"endTime":1202.055,"body":"So what I'm going to do is"},{"startTime":1199.397,"endTime":1202.055,"body":"create a conbon board that is"},{"startTime":1202.055,"endTime":1203.426,"body":"going to be constantly priorit."},{"startTime":1204.202,"endTime":1208.688,"body":"So all you have to do, which, which"},{"startTime":1204.202,"endTime":1208.688,"body":"works really well for support, right?"},{"startTime":1208.974,"endTime":1211.402,"body":"And we have something that's on"},{"startTime":1208.974,"endTime":1211.402,"body":"fire, we're throwing that at the top."},{"startTime":1211.402,"endTime":1212.202,"body":"Everything goes down."},{"startTime":1212.345,"endTime":1217.878,"body":"Now I can concentrate on sprints and"},{"startTime":1212.345,"endTime":1217.878,"body":"development work in a manner , where"},{"startTime":1217.883,"endTime":1220.821,"body":"I can move forward in instead"},{"startTime":1217.883,"endTime":1220.821,"body":"of kind of all of these things"},{"startTime":1220.821,"endTime":1222.65,"body":"being mixed up into in the sprint."},{"startTime":1222.764,"endTime":1228.478,"body":"So are you maintaining two separate"},{"startTime":1222.764,"endTime":1228.478,"body":"boards, one board represents the"},{"startTime":1228.478,"endTime":1232.85,"body":"sprint goal that you set and the"},{"startTime":1228.478,"endTime":1232.85,"body":"other board representing the, the"},{"startTime":1232.945,"endTime":1236.421,"body":"work that is flowing in as it comes"},{"startTime":1232.945,"endTime":1236.421,"body":"in and as it change over time."},{"startTime":1236.593,"endTime":1239.05,"body":"Because like one is like a graph"},{"startTime":1236.593,"endTime":1239.05,"body":"that goes up and down that Correct."},{"startTime":1239.05,"endTime":1240.764,"body":"Like you don't really have"},{"startTime":1239.05,"endTime":1240.764,"body":"control over, you just have to"},{"startTime":1240.764,"endTime":1242.021,"body":"respond to the other one is."},{"startTime":1242.678,"endTime":1244.793,"body":"Set amount of work."},{"startTime":1244.793,"endTime":1247.621,"body":"It should be, it sh theoretically"},{"startTime":1244.793,"endTime":1247.621,"body":"should be flat, right?"},{"startTime":1247.707,"endTime":1250.05,"body":"The amount of work that comes in,"},{"startTime":1247.707,"endTime":1250.05,"body":"whatever you pick, sprint over"},{"startTime":1250.05,"endTime":1251.707,"body":"sprint equals to your velocity."},{"startTime":1251.712,"endTime":1252.336,"body":"Doesn't go up."},{"startTime":1252.34,"endTime":1253.021,"body":"Doesn't go down."},{"startTime":1253.021,"endTime":1256.555,"body":"It only goes up and goes down as"},{"startTime":1253.021,"endTime":1256.555,"body":"you turn in or figure work, right?"},{"startTime":1256.812,"endTime":1260.469,"body":"So one, one should be a graph that goes up"},{"startTime":1256.812,"endTime":1260.469,"body":"and then it gradually comes down and then"},{"startTime":1260.469,"endTime":1263.612,"body":"goes up and then gradually comes down,"},{"startTime":1260.469,"endTime":1263.612,"body":"the other one goes all over the place."},{"startTime":1263.616,"endTime":1263.85,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1264.669,"endTime":1266.469,"body":"as support stuff comes in."},{"startTime":1267.212,"endTime":1271.916,"body":"But when you overlay those two"},{"startTime":1267.212,"endTime":1271.916,"body":"graphs, here's the uncontrollable work"},{"startTime":1271.945,"endTime":1273.574,"body":"versus here's the controllable work."},{"startTime":1273.578,"endTime":1276.945,"body":"I actually, that's probably a good"},{"startTime":1273.578,"endTime":1276.945,"body":"way to represent it to leadership."},{"startTime":1277.088,"endTime":1277.202,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1277.269,"endTime":1282.583,"body":"Can you tell a story from those"},{"startTime":1277.269,"endTime":1282.583,"body":"two overlapping graphs together?"},{"startTime":1282.588,"endTime":1288.959,"body":"If you sync the end of period review"},{"startTime":1282.588,"endTime":1288.959,"body":"for Combon with your sprint review"},{"startTime":1289.102,"endTime":1290.531,"body":"and you say, let's look at the two."},{"startTime":1291.007,"endTime":1292.102,"body":"S side by side."},{"startTime":1292.159,"endTime":1292.731,"body":"Superimposed."},{"startTime":1292.731,"endTime":1292.931,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1292.931,"endTime":1294.931,"body":"Superimposed just over each other."},{"startTime":1294.969,"endTime":1295.197,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1295.202,"endTime":1295.274,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1295.274,"endTime":1296.245,"body":"Let's look at them together."},{"startTime":1296.531,"endTime":1302.016,"body":"I'm guessing you're gonna see a dip in"},{"startTime":1296.531,"endTime":1302.016,"body":"your sprint velocity at the same time you"},{"startTime":1302.016,"endTime":1305.34,"body":"see a spike in your kanban intake of work."},{"startTime":1305.345,"endTime":1305.493,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1305.569,"endTime":1308.026,"body":", I would agree that, and if you"},{"startTime":1305.569,"endTime":1308.026,"body":"show that to leadership, I guess"},{"startTime":1308.026,"endTime":1308.883,"body":"we're talking about metrics now."},{"startTime":1309.036,"endTime":1309.302,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1309.308,"endTime":1313.769,"body":", if you show that to leadership like the,"},{"startTime":1309.308,"endTime":1313.769,"body":"the, the immediate, like the immediate"},{"startTime":1313.769,"endTime":1317.655,"body":"discussion point should probably,"},{"startTime":1313.769,"endTime":1317.655,"body":"should not be like, why couldn't you"},{"startTime":1317.655,"endTime":1321.569,"body":"punch out all the features that I"},{"startTime":1317.655,"endTime":1321.569,"body":"promised to customers or that sales"},{"startTime":1321.569,"endTime":1323.569,"body":"was writing checks about or whatever."},{"startTime":1323.569,"endTime":1326.755,"body":"Like the, the immediate results should"},{"startTime":1323.569,"endTime":1326.755,"body":"be, Oh yeah, that makes total sense."},{"startTime":1326.983,"endTime":1330.007,"body":"Like we had, we, we had a problem"},{"startTime":1326.983,"endTime":1330.007,"body":"production and you had to stop"},{"startTime":1330.007,"endTime":1333.664,"body":"working on this new feature that"},{"startTime":1330.007,"endTime":1333.664,"body":"we we were hoping was gonna put"},{"startTime":1333.664,"endTime":1334.778,"body":"us over the edge or whatever."},{"startTime":1334.778,"endTime":1335.816,"body":"And yeah, it makes sense."},{"startTime":1336.016,"endTime":1339.816,"body":"The, the two graphs over each other"},{"startTime":1336.016,"endTime":1339.816,"body":"superimposed, it makes total sense."},{"startTime":1340.312,"endTime":1342.255,"body":"You can't really change the data,"},{"startTime":1342.731,"endTime":1345.816,"body":"but separating those things out, you"},{"startTime":1342.731,"endTime":1345.816,"body":"don't think separating those things."},{"startTime":1345.816,"endTime":1348.274,"body":"Okay, so I think you were"},{"startTime":1345.816,"endTime":1348.274,"body":"starting off with a question."},{"startTime":1348.274,"endTime":1351.759,"body":"Are you talking about maintaining two"},{"startTime":1348.274,"endTime":1351.759,"body":"separate, two, two separate boards?"},{"startTime":1351.764,"endTime":1352.512,"body":"I, I started out my."},{"startTime":1352.759,"endTime":1356.645,"body":"My starting question was, are you"},{"startTime":1352.759,"endTime":1356.645,"body":"actually maintaining a common board"},{"startTime":1356.645,"endTime":1362.902,"body":"for the support work and a scrum team,"},{"startTime":1356.645,"endTime":1362.902,"body":"sprint work, normal sprint board."},{"startTime":1362.907,"endTime":1367.074,"body":"That is my intention and my hypothesis"},{"startTime":1362.907,"endTime":1367.074,"body":"to see if that's going to work."},{"startTime":1367.078,"endTime":1368.788,"body":"That said, I have a keep setting it up."},{"startTime":1368.874,"endTime":1372.016,"body":"So I am setting up right now, so to"},{"startTime":1368.874,"endTime":1372.016,"body":"see, to see how this is gonna work."},{"startTime":1372.216,"endTime":1372.274,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1372.388,"endTime":1378.036,"body":"This is also literally taking it's, it's,"},{"startTime":1372.388,"endTime":1378.036,"body":"it's taking all of those quote unquote"},{"startTime":1378.036,"endTime":1380.978,"body":"support type maintenance type tickets."},{"startTime":1380.978,"endTime":1381.064,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1381.35,"endTime":1383.407,"body":"Off of me completely."},{"startTime":1383.607,"endTime":1388.074,"body":"I have it, because once they go to"},{"startTime":1383.607,"endTime":1388.074,"body":"tier three, my tier three support,"},{"startTime":1388.559,"endTime":1391.388,"body":"they are the ones who prioritize"},{"startTime":1388.559,"endTime":1391.388,"body":"and put it onto the board."},{"startTime":1391.559,"endTime":1394.559,"body":"It becomes, they're part of, then"},{"startTime":1391.559,"endTime":1394.559,"body":"they become a part of support are."},{"startTime":1394.797,"endTime":1398.512,"body":"you know what, I got really excited when"},{"startTime":1394.797,"endTime":1398.512,"body":"you started talking, Brian because when"},{"startTime":1398.512,"endTime":1403.491,"body":"you were talking about the first time"},{"startTime":1398.512,"endTime":1403.491,"body":"ever, so when you're, so here's the thing"},{"startTime":1403.491,"endTime":1405.32,"body":"is, like I said, I have this hypothesis."},{"startTime":1405.325,"endTime":1406.377,"body":"We're gonna try this out."},{"startTime":1406.377,"endTime":1410.329,"body":"I'm working really closely with our,"},{"startTime":1406.377,"endTime":1410.329,"body":"our, our tier three higher level support."},{"startTime":1410.329,"endTime":1413.187,"body":"And like I said, they've"},{"startTime":1410.329,"endTime":1413.187,"body":"already been just, they've been"},{"startTime":1413.187,"endTime":1416.215,"body":"prioritizing and assigning them"},{"startTime":1413.187,"endTime":1416.215,"body":"to sprints, which has just been."},{"startTime":1416.901,"endTime":1421.044,"body":"Just prolong creating multiple,"},{"startTime":1416.901,"endTime":1421.044,"body":"multiple additional handoffs."},{"startTime":1421.244,"endTime":1421.329,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1421.415,"endTime":1424.472,"body":"Increasing the turnaround time of the,"},{"startTime":1421.415,"endTime":1424.472,"body":"all of these things, which, right."},{"startTime":1424.472,"endTime":1429.321,"body":"So I am, I'm going to end up removing four"},{"startTime":1424.472,"endTime":1429.321,"body":"handoffs by doing it this way and Nice."},{"startTime":1429.326,"endTime":1431.634,"body":"And so the re the reduction in"},{"startTime":1429.326,"endTime":1431.634,"body":"turnaround time for these is"},{"startTime":1431.634,"endTime":1433.206,"body":"going to be, I think amazing."},{"startTime":1433.577,"endTime":1437.482,"body":"But what's so cool is about what you"},{"startTime":1433.577,"endTime":1437.482,"body":"said, the dev side that, that, that"},{"startTime":1437.482,"endTime":1439.015,"body":"is going to be receiving mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1439.096,"endTime":1444.787,"body":"potentially the, they're the last lifeline"},{"startTime":1439.096,"endTime":1444.787,"body":"to to, to resolving these things are also"},{"startTime":1444.901,"endTime":1450.587,"body":"going to be working hand in hand with"},{"startTime":1444.901,"endTime":1450.587,"body":"our level three support and doing some"},{"startTime":1450.587,"endTime":1453.587,"body":"paired programming and things like that"},{"startTime":1450.587,"endTime":1453.587,"body":"so they can do some knowledge transfer"},{"startTime":1453.591,"endTime":1455.701,"body":"sort to level three starts leveling up."},{"startTime":1455.796,"endTime":1456.177,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1456.182,"endTime":1458.91,"body":"So less and less becomes coming over."},{"startTime":1458.91,"endTime":1460.568,"body":"So we have this knowledge"},{"startTime":1458.91,"endTime":1460.568,"body":"transfer going over."},{"startTime":1460.634,"endTime":1460.787,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1460.787,"endTime":1463.796,"body":"So I feel like there's some"},{"startTime":1460.787,"endTime":1463.796,"body":"real benefit in multiple ways to"},{"startTime":1463.801,"endTime":1467.682,"body":"potentially resolve some of these"},{"startTime":1463.801,"endTime":1467.682,"body":"solutions dependent on your situation."},{"startTime":1467.739,"endTime":1468.682,"body":"This happens to be mine."},{"startTime":1468.996,"endTime":1469.225,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1469.225,"endTime":1472.977,"body":"I will tell you this from, from"},{"startTime":1469.225,"endTime":1472.977,"body":"working earlier in my career in QA"},{"startTime":1473.51,"endTime":1477.844,"body":"and working on support tickets, nobody"},{"startTime":1473.51,"endTime":1477.844,"body":"wants to be the maintenance developer."},{"startTime":1477.958,"endTime":1478.491,"body":"Bingo."},{"startTime":1478.844,"endTime":1483.72,"body":"E even if you're development, qa,"},{"startTime":1478.844,"endTime":1483.72,"body":"whatever, in investigatory like"},{"startTime":1484.463,"endTime":1486.406,"body":"private PI or what, like private."},{"startTime":1486.406,"endTime":1487.634,"body":"I . It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1487.777,"endTime":1493.939,"body":"Nobody wants to be like, there are, there"},{"startTime":1487.777,"endTime":1493.939,"body":"are certain people that really find a lot"},{"startTime":1493.939,"endTime":1498.758,"body":"of satisfaction digging in to problems"},{"startTime":1493.939,"endTime":1498.758,"body":"and finding the reasons behind them."},{"startTime":1498.901,"endTime":1502.901,"body":"However, nobody wants to like,"},{"startTime":1498.901,"endTime":1502.901,"body":"this is just my opinion in front."},{"startTime":1502.906,"endTime":1504.044,"body":"Anyone listening out there?"},{"startTime":1504.044,"endTime":1505.329,"body":"I guess I'm looking"},{"startTime":1504.044,"endTime":1505.329,"body":"directly at the camera."},{"startTime":1506.072,"endTime":1510.177,"body":"Hmm just again, my opinion from"},{"startTime":1506.072,"endTime":1510.177,"body":"working on a lot of garbage support"},{"startTime":1510.177,"endTime":1511.672,"body":"tickets in a lot of legacy code."},{"startTime":1511.863,"endTime":1515.849,"body":"Nobody wants to play the role"},{"startTime":1511.863,"endTime":1515.849,"body":"of the development person who's"},{"startTime":1515.853,"endTime":1520.906,"body":"dedicated to legacy code or who"},{"startTime":1515.853,"endTime":1520.906,"body":"does maintenance full-time, the"},{"startTime":1520.906,"endTime":1522.191,"body":"full-time maintenance developer."},{"startTime":1522.477,"endTime":1526.182,"body":"I've also been in organizations"},{"startTime":1522.477,"endTime":1526.182,"body":"where they hire offshore, by the"},{"startTime":1526.182,"endTime":1531.725,"body":"way, they hire entire teams to be"},{"startTime":1526.182,"endTime":1531.725,"body":"the break fix development team."},{"startTime":1531.777,"endTime":1537.053,"body":"Or, or, or a maintenance team or a, I"},{"startTime":1531.777,"endTime":1537.053,"body":"don't know, keep the lights on team."},{"startTime":1537.053,"endTime":1538.539,"body":"I, I'm trying to think"},{"startTime":1537.053,"endTime":1538.539,"body":"of older references."},{"startTime":1538.544,"endTime":1543.458,"body":"So what I'm telling you is that I know"},{"startTime":1538.544,"endTime":1543.458,"body":"that this isn't necessarily textbook"},{"startTime":1543.487,"endTime":1548.115,"body":"and wouldn't be the way that I would"},{"startTime":1543.487,"endTime":1548.115,"body":"be doing things if I had, if I had some"},{"startTime":1548.115,"endTime":1551.915,"body":"other things that I could change, but for"},{"startTime":1548.115,"endTime":1551.915,"body":"right now in trying to solve a problem"},{"startTime":1552.258,"endTime":1554.344,"body":"or trying to make things better, yeah."},{"startTime":1554.439,"endTime":1558.091,"body":"So we're gonna try this experiment"},{"startTime":1554.439,"endTime":1558.091,"body":"and see, but to your point that"},{"startTime":1558.091,"endTime":1561.749,"body":"natural division as far as kind of the"},{"startTime":1558.091,"endTime":1561.749,"body":"maintenance or the product support and"},{"startTime":1561.753,"endTime":1563.549,"body":"all that, that was already happening."},{"startTime":1563.553,"endTime":1563.768,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1563.849,"endTime":1570.206,"body":". So I'm just creating a, a way to hopefully"},{"startTime":1563.849,"endTime":1570.206,"body":"alleviate the confusion, the handoffs."},{"startTime":1570.21,"endTime":1572.834,"body":"And so this is just the way that"},{"startTime":1570.21,"endTime":1572.834,"body":"I tried to solve this problem."},{"startTime":1572.834,"endTime":1576.291,"body":"I don't know if we really landed on this,"},{"startTime":1572.834,"endTime":1576.291,"body":"but when we were talking about visualizing"},{"startTime":1576.291,"endTime":1582.253,"body":"work earlier, like I would, I personally,"},{"startTime":1576.291,"endTime":1582.253,"body":"the way I would handle this is I would"},{"startTime":1582.253,"endTime":1587.768,"body":"put all of the incoming support requests"},{"startTime":1582.253,"endTime":1587.768,"body":"onto a kanban board to be investigated."},{"startTime":1587.768,"endTime":1589.425,"body":"And I don't even know what the"},{"startTime":1587.768,"endTime":1589.425,"body":"stages of that board would be."},{"startTime":1589.577,"endTime":1592.396,"body":"I'm pr I'm sure if we, if we stayed"},{"startTime":1589.577,"endTime":1592.396,"body":"here for another hour, I could probably"},{"startTime":1592.401,"endTime":1595.863,"body":"build you like the ideal board and, and"},{"startTime":1592.401,"endTime":1595.863,"body":"something, it would be something along"},{"startTime":1595.863,"endTime":1600.568,"body":"the lines of like, first request comes"},{"startTime":1595.863,"endTime":1600.568,"body":"in like the first steps of investigation"},{"startTime":1600.568,"endTime":1602.11,"body":"happen, cuz that's your support."},{"startTime":1602.115,"endTime":1603.968,"body":"People walking through their"},{"startTime":1602.115,"endTime":1603.968,"body":"checklist and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1604.253,"endTime":1608.225,"body":"And then there'd be another layer of"},{"startTime":1604.253,"endTime":1608.225,"body":"triage, some, some sort of layer of triage"},{"startTime":1608.568,"endTime":1610.139,"body":"before it gets through to my developers."},{"startTime":1610.168,"endTime":1611.053,"body":"I don't know what that layer is."},{"startTime":1611.053,"endTime":1613.51,"body":"And then, and then my, and then when"},{"startTime":1611.053,"endTime":1613.51,"body":"my developers get involved, there's"},{"startTime":1613.51,"endTime":1617.253,"body":"probably another layer of triage to"},{"startTime":1613.51,"endTime":1617.253,"body":"figure out if this is like a bug."},{"startTime":1617.553,"endTime":1621.125,"body":"Or like how deep it is or how, how,"},{"startTime":1617.553,"endTime":1621.125,"body":"how deep it goes into the system."},{"startTime":1621.268,"endTime":1623.496,"body":"And then whether we actually"},{"startTime":1621.268,"endTime":1623.496,"body":"wanna solve it as a bug."},{"startTime":1623.496,"endTime":1626.858,"body":"Or sometimes you encounter bugs"},{"startTime":1623.496,"endTime":1626.858,"body":"that actually are they require"},{"startTime":1626.863,"endTime":1628.944,"body":"an enhancement, right, to solve."},{"startTime":1629.144,"endTime":1632.801,"body":"So it's a, it's an enhancement in"},{"startTime":1629.144,"endTime":1632.801,"body":"disguise of a bug, meaning the, the,"},{"startTime":1632.806,"endTime":1637.315,"body":"the system that we built until this"},{"startTime":1632.806,"endTime":1637.315,"body":"point has constraints on it and the"},{"startTime":1637.315,"endTime":1641.229,"body":"way the customer is using the system,"},{"startTime":1637.315,"endTime":1641.229,"body":"nobody ever really envisioned that."},{"startTime":1641.287,"endTime":1646.087,"body":"So we had to build a whole new module or"},{"startTime":1641.287,"endTime":1646.087,"body":"a whole new, I don't know, section of the"},{"startTime":1646.134,"endTime":1649.534,"body":"basically an expansion of functionality"},{"startTime":1646.134,"endTime":1649.534,"body":"that we never really thought about."},{"startTime":1650.106,"endTime":1652.677,"body":"I feel that the companies, the"},{"startTime":1650.106,"endTime":1652.677,"body":"companies that really are losing"},{"startTime":1652.677,"endTime":1655.049,"body":"money on this, this is like the worst."},{"startTime":1655.096,"endTime":1657.61,"body":"I'm pointing out the worst of the worst"},{"startTime":1655.096,"endTime":1657.61,"body":"only cuz I've worked on those teams."},{"startTime":1657.839,"endTime":1657.925,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1658.096,"endTime":1661.758,"body":"The companies who just deal with it"},{"startTime":1658.096,"endTime":1661.758,"body":"oh, a customer just asked for it."},{"startTime":1661.758,"endTime":1664.129,"body":"We, we just gotta deal with it Doesn't"},{"startTime":1661.758,"endTime":1664.129,"body":"matter how much money we gotta throw"},{"startTime":1664.134,"endTime":1665.787,"body":"at it, just make the customer happy."},{"startTime":1666.644,"endTime":1668.368,"body":"They end up doing enhancements."},{"startTime":1668.844,"endTime":1673.101,"body":"under the guise of bug fix,"},{"startTime":1668.844,"endTime":1673.101,"body":"yeah, to solve these problems."},{"startTime":1673.329,"endTime":1678.187,"body":"When you don't have a product person"},{"startTime":1673.329,"endTime":1678.187,"body":"involved in that discussion, which we"},{"startTime":1678.187,"endTime":1681.329,"body":"haven't talked about up until this point,"},{"startTime":1678.187,"endTime":1681.329,"body":"we have not talked like product people"},{"startTime":1681.329,"endTime":1685.158,"body":"basically are missing from the equation"},{"startTime":1681.329,"endTime":1685.158,"body":"until we just walked in right now."},{"startTime":1685.91,"endTime":1688.844,"body":"other than prioritization a couple"},{"startTime":1685.91,"endTime":1688.844,"body":"of, we can quibble about that."},{"startTime":1689.015,"endTime":1692.158,"body":"But now where we talked about like a"},{"startTime":1689.015,"endTime":1692.158,"body":"developer investigate support, person"},{"startTime":1692.158,"endTime":1695.758,"body":"investigated, dev development team"},{"startTime":1692.158,"endTime":1695.758,"body":"member investigated, cuz that could"},{"startTime":1695.758,"endTime":1698.891,"body":"be anybody, it could be a QA person,"},{"startTime":1695.758,"endTime":1698.891,"body":"it could be development now we're at"},{"startTime":1698.896,"endTime":1700.629,"body":"the point where we have to fix it."},{"startTime":1701.172,"endTime":1702.401,"body":"Is it really a bug?"},{"startTime":1702.744,"endTime":1703.172,"body":"Well, I don't know."},{"startTime":1703.172,"endTime":1703.915,"body":"Let's talk about it."},{"startTime":1704.229,"endTime":1705.287,"body":"Let's talk about it as a team."},{"startTime":1705.544,"endTime":1706.315,"body":"What are you doing today?"},{"startTime":1706.572,"endTime":1707.744,"body":"Well, well, what are you doing today?"},{"startTime":1707.772,"endTime":1708.744,"body":"Like, let's go with the worst."},{"startTime":1708.744,"endTime":1708.915,"body":"B."},{"startTime":1709.058,"endTime":1710.458,"body":"What, what did you do yesterday?"},{"startTime":1710.544,"endTime":1711.344,"body":"What are you doing today?"},{"startTime":1711.534,"endTime":1711.868,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1711.991,"endTime":1713.115,"body":"Do you have any blockers?"},{"startTime":1713.229,"endTime":1713.744,"body":"We're going here."},{"startTime":1713.744,"endTime":1714.572,"body":"Do you have any blockers?"},{"startTime":1714.629,"endTime":1715.458,"body":"No blockers."},{"startTime":1715.458,"endTime":1716.315,"body":"No blockers at all."},{"startTime":1716.315,"endTime":1718.629,"body":"I just don't, I have no idea"},{"startTime":1716.315,"endTime":1718.629,"body":"how I'm gonna solve this issue."},{"startTime":1718.801,"endTime":1719.058,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1719.058,"endTime":1722.81,"body":"Blockers, . That's where we're going like"},{"startTime":1719.058,"endTime":1722.81,"body":"well, yesterday I investigated the support"},{"startTime":1722.81,"endTime":1725.591,"body":"issue that came in and I I worked support."},{"startTime":1725.596,"endTime":1727.277,"body":"I happened to be the person"},{"startTime":1725.596,"endTime":1727.277,"body":"that picked up the phone."},{"startTime":1727.42,"endTime":1729.934,"body":"I investigated the item, I found"},{"startTime":1727.42,"endTime":1729.934,"body":"that they're trying to do this or"},{"startTime":1729.934,"endTime":1731.191,"body":"whatever, and they're coming back."},{"startTime":1731.191,"endTime":1733.477,"body":"And the system was never"},{"startTime":1731.191,"endTime":1733.477,"body":"designed to do that."},{"startTime":1733.477,"endTime":1735.934,"body":"So in order to fix it, we gotta"},{"startTime":1733.477,"endTime":1735.934,"body":"get, implement this and add"},{"startTime":1735.934,"endTime":1737.849,"body":"this and expand this code base."},{"startTime":1737.849,"endTime":1738.334,"body":"Whatever."},{"startTime":1738.849,"endTime":1739.334,"body":"Wait a minute."},{"startTime":1739.81,"endTime":1741.525,"body":"What, what are we, what are we doing here?"},{"startTime":1741.582,"endTime":1743.096,"body":"Like, let's talk about this for a second."},{"startTime":1743.468,"endTime":1747.182,"body":"What, what are we, do we have to add"},{"startTime":1743.468,"endTime":1747.182,"body":"all this functionality to resolve."},{"startTime":1747.653,"endTime":1751.025,"body":"The bug that the customers"},{"startTime":1747.653,"endTime":1751.025,"body":"are like, let's step back for"},{"startTime":1751.025,"endTime":1752.282,"body":"a second and talk about this."},{"startTime":1752.882,"endTime":1753.825,"body":"That, that I agree."},{"startTime":1753.825,"endTime":1758.71,"body":"First of all, but is that discussion,"},{"startTime":1753.825,"endTime":1758.71,"body":"what form does that take for me?"},{"startTime":1758.71,"endTime":1760.025,"body":"That's the first try I use."},{"startTime":1760.31,"endTime":1762.282,"body":"Is this, is it a usability issue?"},{"startTime":1762.287,"endTime":1763.51,"body":"Is it a user issue?"},{"startTime":1763.529,"endTime":1763.758,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1763.758,"endTime":1765.082,"body":"This is not using the system, right?"},{"startTime":1765.082,"endTime":1765.31,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1765.31,"endTime":1767.51,"body":"Then, then it becomes,"},{"startTime":1765.31,"endTime":1767.51,"body":"well just train them."},{"startTime":1767.51,"endTime":1771.51,"body":"That's the first triage, and then the,"},{"startTime":1767.51,"endTime":1771.51,"body":"and then subsequently from that, which"},{"startTime":1771.51,"endTime":1775.401,"body":"is when the product people really"},{"startTime":1771.51,"endTime":1775.401,"body":"kick in and they go it's not a bug."},{"startTime":1775.429,"endTime":1777.801,"body":"We could, you could just tell"},{"startTime":1775.429,"endTime":1777.801,"body":"them that this is how it works,"},{"startTime":1777.829,"endTime":1779.953,"body":"or they have a point, right?"},{"startTime":1780.068,"endTime":1782.229,"body":"Maybe we should just include this."},{"startTime":1782.234,"endTime":1782.62,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1782.629,"endTime":1782.944,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1782.944,"endTime":1785.953,"body":"And then the product people come"},{"startTime":1782.944,"endTime":1785.953,"body":"in and say what's the size of the"},{"startTime":1785.953,"endTime":1787.634,"body":"audience, and then on and on it goes."},{"startTime":1788.091,"endTime":1791.491,"body":"But for me, I think we started with"},{"startTime":1788.091,"endTime":1791.491,"body":"this, this development person who"},{"startTime":1791.491,"endTime":1792.891,"body":"says, I was on call, et cetera."},{"startTime":1793.368,"endTime":1795.31,"body":"You're gonna lose good"},{"startTime":1793.368,"endTime":1795.31,"body":"people quickly that way."},{"startTime":1795.368,"endTime":1795.739,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1795.91,"endTime":1801.082,"body":"So maybe just have a triage team that"},{"startTime":1795.91,"endTime":1801.082,"body":"looks at the stuff and carve out time"},{"startTime":1801.087,"endTime":1803.71,"body":"during the day, an hour a day, half"},{"startTime":1801.087,"endTime":1803.71,"body":"an hour day, depending on your volume."},{"startTime":1803.939,"endTime":1804.025,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1804.253,"endTime":1809.377,"body":", this team is a cross-functional team"},{"startTime":1804.253,"endTime":1809.377,"body":"in that you have your team QA member"},{"startTime":1809.377,"endTime":1811.949,"body":"there, cuz they tested this stuff"},{"startTime":1809.377,"endTime":1811.949,"body":"before he rolled out into production."},{"startTime":1811.949,"endTime":1812.177,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1812.177,"endTime":1813.32,"body":"So they're valuable, right?"},{"startTime":1813.606,"endTime":1817.32,"body":"Depending on the item, you could have"},{"startTime":1813.606,"endTime":1817.32,"body":"the developer if they're available."},{"startTime":1817.349,"endTime":1819.434,"body":"Now sometimes you don't wanna"},{"startTime":1817.349,"endTime":1819.434,"body":"pull 'em off what they're doing."},{"startTime":1819.491,"endTime":1819.834,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1820.234,"endTime":1820.691,"body":"How about you?"},{"startTime":1820.691,"endTime":1821.749,"body":"Tech leader, the architect."},{"startTime":1821.777,"endTime":1821.92,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1822.149,"endTime":1823.149,"body":", bring them in, right?"},{"startTime":1823.149,"endTime":1824.949,"body":"And then design the po, right?"},{"startTime":1824.949,"endTime":1825.577,"body":"Maybe designer."},{"startTime":1825.582,"endTime":1825.777,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1825.891,"endTime":1826.044,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1826.12,"endTime":1826.882,"body":", maybe the UX person."},{"startTime":1826.882,"endTime":1827.263,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1827.344,"endTime":1829.577,"body":", just a small team that"},{"startTime":1827.344,"endTime":1829.577,"body":"come in and discuss this."},{"startTime":1829.606,"endTime":1832.234,"body":"However many items you"},{"startTime":1829.606,"endTime":1832.234,"body":"have in that time box."},{"startTime":1832.263,"endTime":1832.349,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1832.434,"endTime":1833.834,"body":"And decide where they fall."},{"startTime":1833.891,"endTime":1834.177,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1834.177,"endTime":1835.52,"body":"You could do all that in the tooling."},{"startTime":1835.52,"endTime":1836.891,"body":"So please no more Google sheets."},{"startTime":1837.034,"endTime":1841.291,"body":"You could do all this in the tooling"},{"startTime":1837.034,"endTime":1841.291,"body":"because these become work items"},{"startTime":1841.291,"endTime":1844.777,"body":"that get placed in the backlog"},{"startTime":1841.291,"endTime":1844.777,"body":"with various statuses, right."},{"startTime":1844.806,"endTime":1848.234,"body":"In that if you do that, this is"},{"startTime":1844.806,"endTime":1848.234,"body":"what I call the holistic approach"},{"startTime":1848.234,"endTime":1851.834,"body":"of handling these things, as opposed"},{"startTime":1848.234,"endTime":1851.834,"body":"to you're the SWAT team, right?"},{"startTime":1851.834,"endTime":1854.72,"body":"And people get tired of that very"},{"startTime":1851.834,"endTime":1854.72,"body":"quickly and everybody else is"},{"startTime":1854.72,"endTime":1857.063,"body":"developing stuff so-called in the lab."},{"startTime":1857.32,"endTime":1860.777,"body":"These people envy these people, these"},{"startTime":1857.32,"endTime":1860.777,"body":"people don't like those people, et cetera."},{"startTime":1860.806,"endTime":1862.749,"body":"So it, it's a soluble problem."},{"startTime":1863.277,"endTime":1864.62,"body":"But you have to work at it."},{"startTime":1864.877,"endTime":1864.991,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1865.696,"endTime":1871.096,"body":"We sort of talked about non-sprint"},{"startTime":1865.696,"endTime":1871.096,"body":"work in terms of support items rolling"},{"startTime":1871.096,"endTime":1876.163,"body":"through mm-hmm we talked about work"},{"startTime":1871.096,"endTime":1876.163,"body":"coming back into your team from outside,"},{"startTime":1876.306,"endTime":1878.42,"body":"meaning customers are reporting problems."},{"startTime":1878.887,"endTime":1880.029,"body":"What we did not talk about."},{"startTime":1880.801,"endTime":1885.144,"body":"Your team being divided because they're"},{"startTime":1880.801,"endTime":1885.144,"body":"working on things in your sprint for"},{"startTime":1885.144,"endTime":1890.629,"body":"the product manager agreed on sprint"},{"startTime":1885.144,"endTime":1890.629,"body":"goal, but then their supervisor or some"},{"startTime":1890.634,"endTime":1895.629,"body":"executive or a salesperson or somebody's"},{"startTime":1890.634,"endTime":1895.629,"body":"asking them, Hey buddy, just add this"},{"startTime":1895.634,"endTime":1898.225,"body":"one thing I'm your supervisor on paper."},{"startTime":1898.453,"endTime":1899.91,"body":"I'm your hiring manager."},{"startTime":1899.915,"endTime":1900.234,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":1900.339,"endTime":1901.282,"body":"What resource manager."},{"startTime":1901.282,"endTime":1901.882,"body":"That's, yeah."},{"startTime":1901.887,"endTime":1902.253,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":1902.253,"endTime":1902.596,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":1902.853,"endTime":1904.225,"body":"I'm your resource manager."},{"startTime":1904.482,"endTime":1905.31,"body":"Just do this one thing."},{"startTime":1905.31,"endTime":1906.539,"body":"It's super quick."},{"startTime":1906.71,"endTime":1908.11,"body":"Add a little checkbox."},{"startTime":1908.11,"endTime":1908.425,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1908.568,"endTime":1909.568,"body":"Easy."},{"startTime":1909.625,"endTime":1911.453,"body":"Back in the day when I was a"},{"startTime":1909.625,"endTime":1911.453,"body":"developer, I would just say, if"},{"startTime":1911.453,"endTime":1913.225,"body":"it is that easy, you could do it."},{"startTime":1913.539,"endTime":1913.71,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":1913.777,"endTime":1917.087,"body":"We, we did not talk about the"},{"startTime":1913.777,"endTime":1917.087,"body":"covert, the covert backlog."},{"startTime":1917.115,"endTime":1917.458,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1917.463,"endTime":1918.544,"body":"The covert backlog."},{"startTime":1918.601,"endTime":1919.258,"body":"Oh my God."},{"startTime":1919.258,"endTime":1923.949,"body":"This is where the real pos shine"},{"startTime":1919.258,"endTime":1923.949,"body":"when they get on top of that and go,"},{"startTime":1924.006,"endTime":1926.606,"body":"okay, wait, this stuff over here."},{"startTime":1926.606,"endTime":1927.177,"body":"That's kind of."},{"startTime":1927.691,"endTime":1930.834,"body":"Out there in the ether because"},{"startTime":1927.691,"endTime":1930.834,"body":"it's one-to-one, right?"},{"startTime":1930.834,"endTime":1932.606,"body":"It's never made it on the backlog, right?"},{"startTime":1932.92,"endTime":1933.349,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1933.377,"endTime":1934.177,"body":"We're a stop to that."},{"startTime":1934.177,"endTime":1937.844,"body":"So you would educate your team to say to"},{"startTime":1934.177,"endTime":1937.844,"body":"these people that come in and say, you are"},{"startTime":1937.901,"endTime":1939.234,"body":"a smart Brian, you're a great developer."},{"startTime":1939.239,"endTime":1941.12,"body":"You could knock this out in"},{"startTime":1939.239,"endTime":1941.12,"body":"your lunchtime, five minutes."},{"startTime":1941.149,"endTime":1942.32,"body":"Yeah, five minutes."},{"startTime":1942.377,"endTime":1946.234,"body":"Encourage those team members"},{"startTime":1942.377,"endTime":1946.234,"body":"to say, I could, however, I"},{"startTime":1946.234,"endTime":1947.863,"body":"don't have those five minutes."},{"startTime":1947.863,"endTime":1948.501,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1948.506,"endTime":1951.063,"body":"Please talk to Stormy, who's"},{"startTime":1948.506,"endTime":1951.063,"body":"our product owner, right?"},{"startTime":1951.068,"endTime":1951.244,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1951.606,"endTime":1955.149,"body":"If you encourage your teams to do"},{"startTime":1951.606,"endTime":1955.149,"body":"that, you are going to basically"},{"startTime":1955.149,"endTime":1957.606,"body":"reduce that, you know that cone, right?"},{"startTime":1957.606,"endTime":1961.834,"body":"Where people just come in and bring"},{"startTime":1957.606,"endTime":1961.834,"body":"you all that clandestine work, which"},{"startTime":1961.834,"endTime":1963.815,"body":"really subverts the team completely."},{"startTime":1964.072,"endTime":1964.844,"body":"It's terrible."},{"startTime":1964.863,"endTime":1966.291,"body":"Yeah, and it happens all the time too."},{"startTime":1966.291,"endTime":1966.977,"body":"It does."},{"startTime":1966.977,"endTime":1967.72,"body":"And do you know what?"},{"startTime":1967.72,"endTime":1970.139,"body":"You don't know what you don't know, right?"},{"startTime":1970.144,"endTime":1974.777,"body":"So as a product owner or a product"},{"startTime":1970.144,"endTime":1974.777,"body":"manager, you can't, that's not"},{"startTime":1974.777,"endTime":1978.291,"body":"something you can circumvent or"},{"startTime":1974.777,"endTime":1978.291,"body":"assist with until you know about it."},{"startTime":1978.291,"endTime":1981.258,"body":"And so, unfortunately, Great,"},{"startTime":1978.291,"endTime":1981.258,"body":"yeah, Discover, and that's what"},{"startTime":1981.258,"endTime":1985.134,"body":"I'm finding that's what I've found"},{"startTime":1981.258,"endTime":1985.134,"body":"in, in my experience is that, oh"},{"startTime":1985.134,"endTime":1987.049,"body":"my gosh, this has been going on."},{"startTime":1987.106,"endTime":1987.82,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":1988.191,"endTime":1988.677,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1988.677,"endTime":1992.277,"body":"And it just, is it just some comment"},{"startTime":1988.677,"endTime":1992.277,"body":"that was made or something that shows"},{"startTime":1992.277,"endTime":1995.734,"body":"up somewhere and all of a sudden I'm"},{"startTime":1992.277,"endTime":1995.734,"body":"really, and something is uncovered"},{"startTime":1995.734,"endTime":2001.649,"body":"and I'm going, okay, this, or somebody"},{"startTime":1995.734,"endTime":2001.649,"body":"asked a question, goes back to product."},{"startTime":2002.049,"endTime":2004.391,"body":"All of a sudden somebody comes back to"},{"startTime":2002.049,"endTime":2004.391,"body":"you and says, there's something wrong with"},{"startTime":2004.391,"endTime":2006.272,"body":"this thing that you, that  you guys built."},{"startTime":2006.272,"endTime":2008.244,"body":"And I'm, we're going, what thing?"},{"startTime":2008.415,"endTime":2008.501,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2008.501,"endTime":2009.929,"body":"What are you, what are you talking about?"},{"startTime":2010.244,"endTime":2013.044,"body":"And I have no record, no nothing."},{"startTime":2013.129,"endTime":2015.987,"body":"And yeah, so that's, that's lovely."},{"startTime":2016.529,"endTime":2019.491,"body":"Sometimes it happens at,  places like"},{"startTime":2016.529,"endTime":2019.491,"body":"the daily standup where somebody says"},{"startTime":2019.92,"endTime":2023.063,"body":"yeah, I'm working on this, but um, I"},{"startTime":2019.92,"endTime":2023.063,"body":"just spent some time on this over here."},{"startTime":2023.068,"endTime":2025.006,"body":"And that's when you go, what is that?"},{"startTime":2025.063,"endTime":2025.806,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2025.863,"endTime":2027.177,"body":"Why are you even working on that?"},{"startTime":2027.606,"endTime":2028.349,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":2029.096,"endTime":2030.315,"body":"A good scrum master helps."},{"startTime":2030.368,"endTime":2032.215,"body":"So this requires a team though, right?"},{"startTime":2032.215,"endTime":2034.796,"body":"It's not just the product owner,"},{"startTime":2032.215,"endTime":2034.796,"body":"it's not just the scrum master."},{"startTime":2034.796,"endTime":2037.282,"body":"This requires a team to"},{"startTime":2034.796,"endTime":2037.282,"body":"kind of get on top of it."},{"startTime":2037.853,"endTime":2043.282,"body":"Behavior changes a team and, and, and"},{"startTime":2037.853,"endTime":2043.282,"body":"good leadership and safety so feeling,"},{"startTime":2043.282,"endTime":2048.139,"body":"so what you gave was an example that"},{"startTime":2043.282,"endTime":2048.139,"body":"was a, your, a direct report that was"},{"startTime":2048.139,"endTime":2051.901,"body":"given given a task by their supervisor."},{"startTime":2051.915,"endTime":2054.458,"body":"This is let's put them"},{"startTime":2051.915,"endTime":2054.458,"body":"in a really bad position."},{"startTime":2054.463,"endTime":2054.953,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2054.958,"endTime":2055.258,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2055.315,"endTime":2055.401,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2055.429,"endTime":2059.001,"body":"Now, maybe if we've got a good"},{"startTime":2055.429,"endTime":2059.001,"body":"team and a good product person"},{"startTime":2059.001,"endTime":2060.344,"body":"and a great scrum master."},{"startTime":2061.001,"endTime":2064.639,"body":"maybe that is something that would"},{"startTime":2061.001,"endTime":2064.639,"body":"be a, that is something that I,"},{"startTime":2064.639,"endTime":2067.725,"body":"as a product owner or a product"},{"startTime":2064.639,"endTime":2067.725,"body":"manager would, would collaborate"},{"startTime":2067.725,"endTime":2069.525,"body":"with my scrum master on for sure."},{"startTime":2069.529,"endTime":2073.758,"body":"You're a scrum master for certain, because"},{"startTime":2069.529,"endTime":2073.758,"body":"again, like going, going back to our,"},{"startTime":2073.891,"endTime":2079.187,"body":"our, I guess it's a couple podcasts ago"},{"startTime":2073.891,"endTime":2079.187,"body":"now with Ayo, they're the person that"},{"startTime":2079.187,"endTime":2081.529,"body":"should be unafraid of starting conflict."},{"startTime":2081.587,"endTime":2081.672,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2082.101,"endTime":2087.782,"body":"by saying, Hey, I see that you are"},{"startTime":2082.101,"endTime":2087.782,"body":"tasking Scrum team members with these"},{"startTime":2087.787,"endTime":2089.468,"body":"work items that are not in the backlog."},{"startTime":2089.982,"endTime":2092.239,"body":"Let, let's talk about that"},{"startTime":2089.982,"endTime":2092.239,"body":"and why is that happening?"},{"startTime":2093.087,"endTime":2094.445,"body":"Why are you Atel terrible person?"},{"startTime":2095.588,"endTime":2101.102,"body":"like, I don't the po I'm assuming Brian,"},{"startTime":2095.588,"endTime":2101.102,"body":"that you've spoken to the po, right?"},{"startTime":2101.36,"endTime":2103.588,"body":"And then if there's the three"},{"startTime":2101.36,"endTime":2103.588,"body":"of you, you say, mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2103.669,"endTime":2105.131,"body":", so you know about this right storm."},{"startTime":2105.16,"endTime":2107.245,"body":"That's when Stormy says,"},{"startTime":2105.16,"endTime":2107.245,"body":"I've never heard of this."},{"startTime":2107.245,"endTime":2107.55,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2108.102,"endTime":2110.074,"body":"The scrum master shouldn't"},{"startTime":2108.102,"endTime":2110.074,"body":"feel bad at doing this."},{"startTime":2110.074,"endTime":2110.302,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2110.36,"endTime":2111.56,"body":"That is their job."},{"startTime":2111.588,"endTime":2115.055,"body":"That's, that's by the way like, I"},{"startTime":2111.588,"endTime":2115.055,"body":"don't know if like people are aware,"},{"startTime":2115.055,"endTime":2119.836,"body":"but that's confrontation right there"},{"startTime":2115.055,"endTime":2119.836,"body":"I, I think of all the people, all of"},{"startTime":2119.841,"endTime":2123.988,"body":"the corporate managers, . Sorry man."},{"startTime":2124.055,"endTime":2124.922,"body":"I, I went, sorry."},{"startTime":2125.007,"endTime":2128.064,"body":"I went right up to that ski slope"},{"startTime":2125.007,"endTime":2128.064,"body":"and I just, I couldn't, you stopped."},{"startTime":2128.069,"endTime":2128.379,"body":"I couldn't."},{"startTime":2128.379,"endTime":2131.426,"body":"Then you went, I couldn't bring"},{"startTime":2128.379,"endTime":2131.426,"body":"myself . I looked over the"},{"startTime":2131.426,"endTime":2132.541,"body":"edge and I was like, oh God."},{"startTime":2132.545,"endTime":2133.255,"body":"I looked down."},{"startTime":2133.398,"endTime":2135.141,"body":"I couldn't, I couldn't bring"},{"startTime":2133.398,"endTime":2135.141,"body":"myself to go over the edge."},{"startTime":2135.141,"endTime":2135.312,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2135.341,"endTime":2138.364,"body":"All the corporate managers in"},{"startTime":2135.341,"endTime":2138.364,"body":"that role were there that . Yeah"},{"startTime":2138.412,"endTime":2142.107,"body":"like it's confrontation like that,"},{"startTime":2138.412,"endTime":2142.107,"body":"that that's, that's your role."},{"startTime":2142.279,"endTime":2142.736,"body":"Oh, oh."},{"startTime":2142.736,"endTime":2148.526,"body":"Your role in leadership as a scrum"},{"startTime":2142.736,"endTime":2148.526,"body":"master is, is to bring us to that edge"},{"startTime":2148.526,"endTime":2152.869,"body":"and be like, we can go over together"},{"startTime":2148.526,"endTime":2152.869,"body":"trust me, we'll all have fun . Like when"},{"startTime":2152.869,"endTime":2155.555,"body":"we all have our arms up in the roller"},{"startTime":2152.869,"endTime":2155.555,"body":"coaster and we're like, no, no, no."},{"startTime":2156.269,"endTime":2157.641,"body":"Oh, dear . Yeah."},{"startTime":2157.645,"endTime":2157.841,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2157.845,"endTime":2159.155,"body":"And we all go back and we all go back."},{"startTime":2159.155,"endTime":2161.069,"body":"We're like, you know what, you"},{"startTime":2159.155,"endTime":2161.069,"body":"know what this argument is?"},{"startTime":2161.144,"endTime":2164.401,"body":"We're afraid of going over"},{"startTime":2161.144,"endTime":2164.401,"body":"this hump in the roller coaster"},{"startTime":2164.401,"endTime":2166.234,"body":"track, and we're just gonna stop."},{"startTime":2166.377,"endTime":2168.834,"body":"We're all like, half the"},{"startTime":2166.377,"endTime":2168.834,"body":"car has got their hands up."},{"startTime":2168.891,"endTime":2172.349,"body":"Half the car is super scared,"},{"startTime":2168.891,"endTime":2172.349,"body":"and we're just gonna stop at the"},{"startTime":2172.349,"endTime":2175.12,"body":"edge of the track and then just"},{"startTime":2172.349,"endTime":2175.12,"body":"back up and not go over this."},{"startTime":2175.549,"endTime":2177.806,"body":"That, that's, that's"},{"startTime":2175.549,"endTime":2177.806,"body":"where we are right now."},{"startTime":2177.958,"endTime":2178.377,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2178.52,"endTime":2178.777,"body":". Yeah."},{"startTime":2178.777,"endTime":2179.368,"body":"No, no, no."},{"startTime":2179.368,"endTime":2181.277,"body":"We need to go over the edge"},{"startTime":2179.368,"endTime":2181.277,"body":"because look over the edge is"},{"startTime":2181.277,"endTime":2183.163,"body":"where, where the decision is."},{"startTime":2183.163,"endTime":2183.22,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2183.477,"endTime":2186.706,"body":"That, that, that's where moving"},{"startTime":2183.477,"endTime":2186.706,"body":"forward or working through"},{"startTime":2186.706,"endTime":2188.277,"body":"it, or learning or whatever."},{"startTime":2188.806,"endTime":2189.634,"body":"That's where it is."},{"startTime":2189.663,"endTime":2195.92,"body":"We need to go over and if it falls on"},{"startTime":2189.663,"endTime":2195.92,"body":"me as the only business leader in the."},{"startTime":2196.429,"endTime":2200.858,"body":"as the only responsible adult in the"},{"startTime":2196.429,"endTime":2200.858,"body":"room, as the only irresponsible adult in"},{"startTime":2200.858,"endTime":2202.906,"body":"the room I will push us over that edge."},{"startTime":2202.906,"endTime":2203.668,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":2203.906,"endTime":2207.063,"body":"You know what  as you were telling the,"},{"startTime":2203.906,"endTime":2207.063,"body":"your example, I actually , came to mind"},{"startTime":2207.063,"endTime":2212.958,"body":"a real life story, an experience that I"},{"startTime":2207.063,"endTime":2212.958,"body":"had where I had a a development manager."},{"startTime":2212.958,"endTime":2216.244,"body":"I don't know exactly what, what title"},{"startTime":2212.958,"endTime":2216.244,"body":"it was, but anyway, he was newly hired."},{"startTime":2216.249,"endTime":2220.158,"body":"He came on and all the developers, all"},{"startTime":2216.249,"endTime":2220.158,"body":"of the developers were now reporting to"},{"startTime":2220.163,"endTime":2224.253,"body":"him this was when in the before times we"},{"startTime":2220.163,"endTime":2224.253,"body":"were all co-located, all in the same room."},{"startTime":2224.253,"endTime":2229.434,"body":"Right, and the, he was"},{"startTime":2224.253,"endTime":2229.434,"body":"he was doing it right."},{"startTime":2229.52,"endTime":2237.063,"body":"He was going into the tickets, into the"},{"startTime":2229.52,"endTime":2237.063,"body":"developer's tickets and adding tasks."},{"startTime":2237.206,"endTime":2240.72,"body":"I like it into the, like"},{"startTime":2237.206,"endTime":2240.72,"body":"adding on individual tasks."},{"startTime":2240.72,"endTime":2240.891,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":2240.891,"endTime":2241.044,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2241.091,"endTime":2244.72,"body":"And they were, they then they would"},{"startTime":2241.091,"endTime":2244.72,"body":"just kind of discover these and he"},{"startTime":2244.72,"endTime":2247.12,"body":"would say, Hey, you needed to do"},{"startTime":2244.72,"endTime":2247.12,"body":"this and you, you're missing this."},{"startTime":2247.12,"endTime":2247.834,"body":"You need to be doing this."},{"startTime":2247.834,"endTime":2248.691,"body":"You need to be doing this."},{"startTime":2248.806,"endTime":2253.482,"body":"And thank goodness that that I had"},{"startTime":2248.806,"endTime":2253.482,"body":"a fantastic Scrum master number one"},{"startTime":2253.482,"endTime":2257.468,"body":"that that noted they were not happy"},{"startTime":2253.482,"endTime":2257.468,"body":"about it, and they were, but they"},{"startTime":2257.472,"endTime":2258.868,"body":"were feeling very much obligated."},{"startTime":2258.868,"endTime":2261.782,"body":"I mean, their manager, they're,"},{"startTime":2258.868,"endTime":2261.782,"body":"they're, they're directly reporting to"},{"startTime":2261.782,"endTime":2265.325,"body":"the person who's putting instructions"},{"startTime":2261.782,"endTime":2265.325,"body":"in their tickets and telling them"},{"startTime":2265.353,"endTime":2266.81,"body":"how and what they should be doing."},{"startTime":2266.81,"endTime":2266.868,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2266.915,"endTime":2271.515,"body":"But I had a great scrum master who"},{"startTime":2266.915,"endTime":2271.515,"body":"realized this very quickly and brought"},{"startTime":2271.515,"endTime":2276.063,"body":"us all together initially the, myself"},{"startTime":2271.515,"endTime":2276.063,"body":"uh, him and the development manager,"},{"startTime":2276.291,"endTime":2278.729,"body":"and said why this wasn't working."},{"startTime":2278.729,"endTime":2283.244,"body":"We have a team that's empowered and we"},{"startTime":2278.729,"endTime":2283.244,"body":"work really hard to have the, the trust"},{"startTime":2283.249,"endTime":2286.925,"body":"and the safety and if you need to make"},{"startTime":2283.249,"endTime":2286.925,"body":"a suggestion, , feel free, but we don't"},{"startTime":2286.925,"endTime":2290.782,"body":"need you digging in their tickets and"},{"startTime":2286.925,"endTime":2290.782,"body":"putting in instructions and why That"},{"startTime":2290.782,"endTime":2295.61,"body":"was so, I was very much supported and,"},{"startTime":2290.782,"endTime":2295.61,"body":"and, and he, he resolved the behavior."},{"startTime":2295.668,"endTime":2298.296,"body":"It was something, and we"},{"startTime":2295.668,"endTime":2298.296,"body":"did really well for it."},{"startTime":2298.301,"endTime":2299.868,"body":"The team did really well for it."},{"startTime":2299.868,"endTime":2301.153,"body":"I mean, they were very successful."},{"startTime":2301.782,"endTime":2305.01,"body":"It happens all the time"},{"startTime":2301.782,"endTime":2305.01,"body":"with, um architects who these"},{"startTime":2305.01,"endTime":2306.782,"body":"developers supposedly report to."},{"startTime":2307.296,"endTime":2310.125,"body":"They will come in and say, here are"},{"startTime":2307.296,"endTime":2310.125,"body":"two, three things that you need to do."},{"startTime":2310.153,"endTime":2311.81,"body":"Oh, by the way, I found this great tool."},{"startTime":2311.925,"endTime":2312.982,"body":"Go investigate that."},{"startTime":2312.982,"endTime":2314.382,"body":"Just, it's just part of that story."},{"startTime":2314.382,"endTime":2318.234,"body":"It really isn't, but  there's"},{"startTime":2314.382,"endTime":2318.234,"body":"your, your scope creep right there."},{"startTime":2318.577,"endTime":2320.92,"body":"And the developers don't feel"},{"startTime":2318.577,"endTime":2320.92,"body":"empowered to be able to push"},{"startTime":2320.92,"endTime":2322.406,"body":"back because that's their boss."},{"startTime":2322.406,"endTime":2322.606,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2322.606,"endTime":2323.52,"body":"This happens all the time."},{"startTime":2323.91,"endTime":2324.377,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2324.382,"endTime":2324.463,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2324.463,"endTime":2329.768,"body":"I think we just need to call that out"},{"startTime":2324.463,"endTime":2329.768,"body":"and say, how is that piece adding value?"},{"startTime":2329.91,"endTime":2330.225,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2330.225,"endTime":2331.625,"body":"To, to the acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":2331.625,"endTime":2332.139,"body":"It's not."},{"startTime":2332.782,"endTime":2335.039,"body":"But at the same time, I'm,"},{"startTime":2332.782,"endTime":2335.039,"body":"I'm not shutting you out."},{"startTime":2335.039,"endTime":2336.725,"body":"I'm saying this tool may be fantastic."},{"startTime":2336.725,"endTime":2339.096,"body":"Can we just maybe create a spike"},{"startTime":2336.725,"endTime":2339.096,"body":"to investigate that, right?"},{"startTime":2339.101,"endTime":2339.163,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2339.163,"endTime":2339.353,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2339.429,"endTime":2339.43,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2339.435,"endTime":2342.553,"body":"And I'll be happy to pull into the next"},{"startTime":2339.435,"endTime":2342.553,"body":"sprint cuz we're fully loaded this sprint."},{"startTime":2342.582,"endTime":2346.458,"body":"Well also, I'll be happy to lobby"},{"startTime":2342.582,"endTime":2346.458,"body":"for it at your next refinement,"},{"startTime":2346.515,"endTime":2349.572,"body":"which you should invite me to because"},{"startTime":2346.515,"endTime":2349.572,"body":"anybody, you should feel free to"},{"startTime":2349.629,"endTime":2351.315,"body":"invite whoever needs to be there."},{"startTime":2351.315,"endTime":2351.458,"body":"Bingo."},{"startTime":2351.572,"endTime":2352.172,"body":"To the refinement."},{"startTime":2352.172,"endTime":2356.506,"body":"And, I think the same way about"},{"startTime":2352.172,"endTime":2356.506,"body":"like, oh, we need to pull in a story"},{"startTime":2356.706,"endTime":2361.325,"body":"about bringing our, I don't know,"},{"startTime":2356.706,"endTime":2361.325,"body":"production database or production,"},{"startTime":2361.325,"endTime":2363.239,"body":"whatever to the, to the latest version."},{"startTime":2364.015,"endTime":2367.282,"body":"Or, or, or to a whatever, to a cutting"},{"startTime":2364.015,"endTime":2367.282,"body":"edge version or something like that."},{"startTime":2367.282,"endTime":2370.539,"body":"I don't know, whatever it is oh,"},{"startTime":2367.282,"endTime":2370.539,"body":"maybe we're two like minor versions"},{"startTime":2370.539,"endTime":2374.044,"body":"behind in like, mi maybe we're on,"},{"startTime":2370.539,"endTime":2374.044,"body":"like I'm trying to think of a, a,"},{"startTime":2374.377,"endTime":2376.749,"body":"If the version of like, oh, Mongo."},{"startTime":2376.749,"endTime":2377.206,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2377.21,"endTime":2377.349,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2377.377,"endTime":2380.501,"body":"Like if your current, if your current"},{"startTime":2377.377,"endTime":2380.501,"body":"version of Mongo is like, If your current"},{"startTime":2380.501,"endTime":2383.444,"body":"version of Mon goes like three versions"},{"startTime":2380.501,"endTime":2383.444,"body":"be behind and you have to go like"},{"startTime":2383.444,"endTime":2387.206,"body":"several major versions well, you probably"},{"startTime":2383.444,"endTime":2387.206,"body":"shouldn't be several major versions"},{"startTime":2387.206,"endTime":2390.377,"body":"behind you probably should only be like,"},{"startTime":2387.206,"endTime":2390.377,"body":"I dunno, maybe one major version, a"},{"startTime":2390.377,"endTime":2391.92,"body":"couple minor releases or whatever behind."},{"startTime":2391.925,"endTime":2393.92,"body":"So you only have to do"},{"startTime":2391.925,"endTime":2393.92,"body":"like one skip ahead, right?"},{"startTime":2393.949,"endTime":2397.72,"body":"But you should really be pretty close"},{"startTime":2393.949,"endTime":2397.72,"body":"to the production release schedule."},{"startTime":2397.72,"endTime":2400.291,"body":"Well, who maintains that?"},{"startTime":2400.777,"endTime":2406.529,"body":"Who maintains uh, that, that  telepathic"},{"startTime":2400.777,"endTime":2406.529,"body":"link to  to the current version, right?"},{"startTime":2406.587,"endTime":2409.901,"body":"Like who maintains like, oh, our"},{"startTime":2406.587,"endTime":2409.901,"body":"current stack, like here's the"},{"startTime":2409.901,"endTime":2412.815,"body":"versions that are most current"},{"startTime":2409.901,"endTime":2412.815,"body":"and here's the versions we're on."},{"startTime":2412.958,"endTime":2419.558,"body":"Hey, you should know that every version"},{"startTime":2412.958,"endTime":2419.558,"body":"that we go past the current version,"},{"startTime":2419.815,"endTime":2423.844,"body":"that we are incurring risk more and"},{"startTime":2419.815,"endTime":2423.844,"body":"more and more and more risk over time."},{"startTime":2424.015,"endTime":2427.072,"body":"So somebody should be driving"},{"startTime":2424.015,"endTime":2427.072,"body":"that into the refinements."},{"startTime":2427.587,"endTime":2428.272,"body":"Who is that?"},{"startTime":2428.558,"endTime":2431.215,"body":"I mean, theoretically I would think"},{"startTime":2428.558,"endTime":2431.215,"body":"like my engineering leadership."},{"startTime":2431.301,"endTime":2431.387,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2431.501,"endTime":2432.758,"body":"Engineering leads."},{"startTime":2433.349,"endTime":2434.863,"body":"system architects you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2434.863,"endTime":2435.463,"body":"People like that."},{"startTime":2435.491,"endTime":2438.263,"body":"Like they should be driving"},{"startTime":2435.491,"endTime":2438.263,"body":"it in lieu of everyone else."},{"startTime":2439.129,"endTime":2442.677,"body":"Honestly, all prioritization is the"},{"startTime":2439.129,"endTime":2442.677,"body":"product manager's responsibility."},{"startTime":2442.677,"endTime":2447.391,"body":"So if I'm the business and I'm gonna"},{"startTime":2442.677,"endTime":2447.391,"body":"task somebody, I'm gonna task the"},{"startTime":2447.391,"endTime":2450.449,"body":"product manager to be like, Hey,"},{"startTime":2447.391,"endTime":2450.449,"body":"how did, how did you not know?"},{"startTime":2450.82,"endTime":2455.677,"body":"We were two versions behind,"},{"startTime":2450.82,"endTime":2455.677,"body":"two major versions behind of"},{"startTime":2455.677,"endTime":2458.363,"body":"our Microsoft SQL database."},{"startTime":2458.729,"endTime":2460.387,"body":"And that we're out of whatever."},{"startTime":2460.787,"endTime":2463.187,"body":"Maybe we have audits or compliance or"},{"startTime":2460.787,"endTime":2463.187,"body":"something like that, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2463.215,"endTime":2464.272,"body":"I don't Yeah, that's a valid point."},{"startTime":2464.272,"endTime":2466.558,"body":"But compliance, especially"},{"startTime":2464.272,"endTime":2466.558,"body":"regular industries."},{"startTime":2466.558,"endTime":2466.615,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2466.872,"endTime":2471.587,"body":"I treat those things as tech enablement"},{"startTime":2466.872,"endTime":2471.587,"body":"items just to delineate the distinction"},{"startTime":2471.587,"endTime":2475.472,"body":"between that versus real value"},{"startTime":2471.587,"endTime":2475.472,"body":"add that somebody is paying for."},{"startTime":2475.644,"endTime":2475.844,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2475.849,"endTime":2476.158,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2476.158,"endTime":2479.044,"body":"Indirectly, they won't pay for"},{"startTime":2476.158,"endTime":2479.044,"body":"this in time if you don't keep up."},{"startTime":2479.072,"endTime":2483.272,"body":"But that's tech, tech enablement and"},{"startTime":2479.072,"endTime":2483.272,"body":"uh, it's the architecture group that"},{"startTime":2483.644,"endTime":2488.158,"body":"comes up with this because product"},{"startTime":2483.644,"endTime":2488.158,"body":"owners, they don't have to necessarily"},{"startTime":2488.163,"endTime":2489.815,"body":"go figure all that stuff out, right?"},{"startTime":2489.825,"endTime":2490.053,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2490.129,"endTime":2493.072,"body":", but they have to work with the"},{"startTime":2490.129,"endTime":2493.072,"body":"backlog to get that delivered."},{"startTime":2493.215,"endTime":2493.301,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2493.301,"endTime":2498.31,"body":"So these people feed that in and often"},{"startTime":2493.301,"endTime":2498.31,"body":"it's not urgent sometimes it can be"},{"startTime":2498.31,"endTime":2499.996,"body":"like, oh, well we have a vulnerability."},{"startTime":2499.996,"endTime":2500.196,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2500.196,"endTime":2501.358,"body":"Dispatch has to happen."},{"startTime":2501.825,"endTime":2505.168,"body":"That's more of an exception than"},{"startTime":2501.825,"endTime":2505.168,"body":"keeping up with the versions"},{"startTime":2505.168,"endTime":2506.168,"body":"and things like that, right?"},{"startTime":2506.206,"endTime":2506.539,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"startTime":2506.606,"endTime":2508.977,"body":"but to your point about compliance,"},{"startTime":2506.606,"endTime":2508.977,"body":"that's the other thing lately that"},{"startTime":2508.977,"endTime":2513.882,"body":"I've, I've been fighting is compliance"},{"startTime":2508.977,"endTime":2513.882,"body":"is often bolted on at the end."},{"startTime":2513.987,"endTime":2518.301,"body":"So teams will work away, especially on a"},{"startTime":2513.987,"endTime":2518.301,"body":"large program, multiple teams, and then"},{"startTime":2518.306,"endTime":2520.015,"body":"go, okay, it's ready for prime time."},{"startTime":2520.387,"endTime":2522.949,"body":"Let's just go and get, security"},{"startTime":2520.387,"endTime":2522.949,"body":"checked and everything else."},{"startTime":2522.949,"endTime":2524.434,"body":"And everybody goes, yes, yes, yes."},{"startTime":2525.291,"endTime":2526.606,"body":"And then they go, what else is left?"},{"startTime":2526.606,"endTime":2529.634,"body":"And somebody will go, compliance"},{"startTime":2526.606,"endTime":2529.634,"body":"and compliance team's going,"},{"startTime":2530.091,"endTime":2531.806,"body":"now we find out about this."},{"startTime":2531.863,"endTime":2532.263,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2532.263,"endTime":2537.006,"body":"So I'm trying to hit that off by"},{"startTime":2532.263,"endTime":2537.006,"body":"having them engage with the product"},{"startTime":2537.006,"endTime":2540.291,"body":"owners at the ideation phase,"},{"startTime":2537.006,"endTime":2540.291,"body":"right, at the very beginning."},{"startTime":2540.463,"endTime":2540.777,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2541.063,"endTime":2543.263,"body":"And say, this is the work coming at you."},{"startTime":2543.263,"endTime":2545.12,"body":"It's not done yet, but it's coming at you."},{"startTime":2545.177,"endTime":2548.977,"body":"Put it on your radar and then keep"},{"startTime":2545.177,"endTime":2548.977,"body":"engaged throughout, because right at"},{"startTime":2548.977,"endTime":2552.106,"body":"the beginning, in the first print,"},{"startTime":2548.977,"endTime":2552.106,"body":"Work with the teams and say, listen,"},{"startTime":2552.163,"endTime":2553.363,"body":"I know you're building this stuff."},{"startTime":2553.82,"endTime":2556.163,"body":"How about you you consider these elements."},{"startTime":2556.22,"endTime":2558.791,"body":"If you do those, there'll be"},{"startTime":2556.22,"endTime":2558.791,"body":"nothing for us to do at the"},{"startTime":2558.791,"endTime":2560.049,"body":"end cuz it will be compliant."},{"startTime":2560.191,"endTime":2560.334,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2560.363,"endTime":2563.563,"body":"So in other words, build it"},{"startTime":2560.363,"endTime":2563.563,"body":"in rather than bolt it on."},{"startTime":2563.563,"endTime":2563.906,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2564.163,"endTime":2567.391,"body":"And initially the teams don't like"},{"startTime":2564.163,"endTime":2567.391,"body":"it as much and especially the the,"},{"startTime":2567.391,"endTime":2568.906,"body":"the technical arm of the company."},{"startTime":2569.277,"endTime":2570.391,"body":"They're not used to this."},{"startTime":2570.391,"endTime":2572.163,"body":"They go, well, why do we"},{"startTime":2570.391,"endTime":2572.163,"body":"have to engage them now?"},{"startTime":2572.163,"endTime":2573.134,"body":"We haven't even done the work."},{"startTime":2573.134,"endTime":2574.706,"body":"I'm like, that's when"},{"startTime":2573.134,"endTime":2574.706,"body":"you need to engage them."},{"startTime":2574.706,"endTime":2574.906,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2574.906,"endTime":2575.163,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2575.249,"endTime":2575.591,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2575.82,"endTime":2580.963,"body":"So it it's a culture change and as we"},{"startTime":2575.82,"endTime":2580.963,"body":"know, cultures take time to change,"},{"startTime":2580.968,"endTime":2582.106,"body":"but I'm fighting that right now."},{"startTime":2582.106,"endTime":2582.525,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2582.606,"endTime":2582.906,"body":". So yeah."},{"startTime":2582.91,"endTime":2586.277,"body":"All of these things we need to kind of"},{"startTime":2582.91,"endTime":2586.277,"body":"think about it holistically and say what's"},{"startTime":2586.277,"endTime":2588.049,"body":"the friction and try and reduce that."},{"startTime":2588.334,"endTime":2592.934,"body":"It is a culture change, but I feel the,"},{"startTime":2588.334,"endTime":2592.934,"body":"the culture change could be enabled"},{"startTime":2593.487,"endTime":2599.944,"body":"pretty significantly by changing the"},{"startTime":2593.487,"endTime":2599.944,"body":"focus of metrics as you move through"},{"startTime":2600.487,"endTime":2606.144,"body":"your product backlog or your, whatever,"},{"startTime":2600.487,"endTime":2606.144,"body":"production, production support,"},{"startTime":2606.149,"endTime":2607.468,"body":"conbon or whatever you're using."},{"startTime":2607.782,"endTime":2612.61,"body":"Whatever the, the, the, the how, how"},{"startTime":2607.782,"endTime":2612.61,"body":"you look at everything we've talked"},{"startTime":2612.61,"endTime":2617.982,"body":"about in terms of product metrics could"},{"startTime":2612.61,"endTime":2617.982,"body":"do a lot to, to move this forward."},{"startTime":2618.182,"endTime":2622.658,"body":"Like it, like I think of specifically"},{"startTime":2618.182,"endTime":2622.658,"body":"the like who, who is looking"},{"startTime":2622.658,"endTime":2624.458,"body":"out for my technical enablers?"},{"startTime":2624.572,"endTime":2629.077,"body":"Because I feel tho tho that out of all,"},{"startTime":2624.572,"endTime":2629.077,"body":"like even the support like category"},{"startTime":2629.082,"endTime":2632.401,"body":"stuff of things that bubble up and"},{"startTime":2629.082,"endTime":2632.401,"body":"need to be worked on immediately"},{"startTime":2632.401,"endTime":2634.572,"body":"and we didn't really know they"},{"startTime":2632.401,"endTime":2634.572,"body":"needed to be, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2634.744,"endTime":2635.972,"body":"Like, they're unexpected work."},{"startTime":2636.344,"endTime":2643.334,"body":"K a chaotic intake of work the items"},{"startTime":2636.344,"endTime":2643.334,"body":"that you need to work on that are"},{"startTime":2643.334,"endTime":2648.649,"body":"not real attractive features or"},{"startTime":2643.334,"endTime":2648.649,"body":"whatever bring us into compliance of"},{"startTime":2649.22,"endTime":2652.61,"body":"current database versions or bring"},{"startTime":2649.22,"endTime":2652.61,"body":"us into , that, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2652.639,"endTime":2657.229,"body":"Like real basic stuff you could say,"},{"startTime":2652.639,"endTime":2657.229,"body":"well there should be a trade off of"},{"startTime":2657.229,"endTime":2663.801,"body":"product of we wanna be in compliance, but"},{"startTime":2657.229,"endTime":2663.801,"body":"also we need to put butts in seats and"},{"startTime":2663.801,"endTime":2665.687,"body":"sell widgets and, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2665.687,"endTime":2669.682,"body":"Sell, sell season tickets or whatever"},{"startTime":2665.687,"endTime":2669.682,"body":"like so, so like, I'm willing to"},{"startTime":2669.682,"endTime":2675.558,"body":"accept a certain amount of technical"},{"startTime":2669.682,"endTime":2675.558,"body":"risk, technical debt, or risk so that"},{"startTime":2675.558,"endTime":2677.472,"body":"we can move quickly with features."},{"startTime":2678.015,"endTime":2681.301,"body":"And there's a, there might be like"},{"startTime":2678.015,"endTime":2681.301,"body":"a percentage here or there, like x"},{"startTime":2681.301,"endTime":2685.758,"body":"percentage of our time is spent reducing"},{"startTime":2681.301,"endTime":2685.758,"body":"technical debt, whereas x percentage of"},{"startTime":2685.758,"endTime":2690.263,"body":"our time is spent implementing features to"},{"startTime":2685.758,"endTime":2690.263,"body":"put out there, to sell tickets basically."},{"startTime":2690.834,"endTime":2697.139,"body":"Absolutely but what metrics"},{"startTime":2690.834,"endTime":2697.139,"body":"you, you keep look out for, keep"},{"startTime":2697.625,"endTime":2699.082,"body":"track what metrics you track."},{"startTime":2699.11,"endTime":2699.415,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2699.596,"endTime":2703.11,"body":"What metrics you track"},{"startTime":2699.596,"endTime":2703.11,"body":"makes a big impact on this."},{"startTime":2703.339,"endTime":2705.253,"body":"It a huge impact on this actually."},{"startTime":2705.482,"endTime":2709.901,"body":"Like if I were tracking the number of"},{"startTime":2705.482,"endTime":2709.901,"body":"support tickets that came through, that I"},{"startTime":2709.901,"endTime":2713.272,"body":"resolved in the same period of the sprint."},{"startTime":2713.91,"endTime":2715.082,"body":"Let's go down to the team level."},{"startTime":2715.163,"endTime":2717.21,"body":"We're gonna, we're gonna"},{"startTime":2715.163,"endTime":2717.21,"body":"ratchet down to the team level."},{"startTime":2717.325,"endTime":2720.696,"body":"So forget leadership, leadership"},{"startTime":2717.325,"endTime":2720.696,"body":"is not, leadership is excluded"},{"startTime":2720.696,"endTime":2722.296,"body":"for a second in our conversation."},{"startTime":2722.439,"endTime":2722.696,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":2723.125,"endTime":2726.782,"body":"We're just talking about how"},{"startTime":2723.125,"endTime":2726.782,"body":"many production support items"},{"startTime":2726.868,"endTime":2728.553,"body":"do we punch out in a sprint?"},{"startTime":2728.839,"endTime":2735.325,"body":"And how many planned sprint work items,"},{"startTime":2728.839,"endTime":2735.325,"body":"features, bugs, whatever you wanna"},{"startTime":2735.325,"endTime":2739.944,"body":"call 'em how many planned sprint work"},{"startTime":2735.325,"endTime":2739.944,"body":"items versus how many production items."},{"startTime":2739.996,"endTime":2742.815,"body":"Here's our, here's our"},{"startTime":2739.996,"endTime":2742.815,"body":"sprint iteration number."},{"startTime":2742.939,"endTime":2743.368,"body":"Work items."},{"startTime":2743.368,"endTime":2747.434,"body":"We, we knock out here is our"},{"startTime":2743.368,"endTime":2747.434,"body":"support combo bond above it."},{"startTime":2747.52,"endTime":2747.606,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2747.834,"endTime":2748.949,"body":"how many items we knock out."},{"startTime":2749.149,"endTime":2751.463,"body":"So we're talking about those two"},{"startTime":2749.149,"endTime":2751.463,"body":"again, we're talking about, we're back"},{"startTime":2751.468,"endTime":2753.349,"body":"to overlaying data over data, right?"},{"startTime":2753.691,"endTime":2757.663,"body":"So let me overlay those two and,"},{"startTime":2753.691,"endTime":2757.663,"body":"and my assumption as a business"},{"startTime":2757.668,"endTime":2763.777,"body":"leader, Who knows nothing about kabon"},{"startTime":2757.668,"endTime":2763.777,"body":"or Velocity or your, your sprinty"},{"startTime":2763.777,"endTime":2765.149,"body":"sprints or whatever you're using."},{"startTime":2765.263,"endTime":2769.377,"body":"I don't know anything about that, but"},{"startTime":2765.263,"endTime":2769.377,"body":"I can show that when you have a dip"},{"startTime":2769.382,"endTime":2774.406,"body":"in your sprint items, you have an,"},{"startTime":2769.382,"endTime":2774.406,"body":"an equal uptick, or maybe not equal,"},{"startTime":2774.406,"endTime":2778.349,"body":"but you have, you have an uptick"},{"startTime":2774.406,"endTime":2778.349,"body":"in your incoming, a corresponding"},{"startTime":2778.349,"endTime":2779.806,"body":"up update, a corresponding uptake."},{"startTime":2779.806,"endTime":2780.187,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2780.191,"endTime":2782.234,"body":"In your worked support items."},{"startTime":2782.406,"endTime":2786.234,"body":"So I should see, while one graph is moving"},{"startTime":2782.406,"endTime":2786.234,"body":"down, the other graph's moving up, or both"},{"startTime":2786.234,"endTime":2788.549,"body":"graphs are moving equally along the line."},{"startTime":2788.549,"endTime":2791.263,"body":"Like if I'm just doing like line"},{"startTime":2788.549,"endTime":2791.263,"body":"graphs, like the most simple, you know."},{"startTime":2791.406,"endTime":2794.12,"body":"Yeah so the, the metrics"},{"startTime":2791.406,"endTime":2794.12,"body":"that you're providing, what"},{"startTime":2794.12,"endTime":2795.406,"body":"metrics are we providing here?"},{"startTime":2795.501,"endTime":2798.358,"body":"If we go all the way back to the beginning"},{"startTime":2795.501,"endTime":2798.358,"body":"of the podcast where we started, if"},{"startTime":2798.358,"endTime":2802.187,"body":"you have a team that's working on"},{"startTime":2798.358,"endTime":2802.187,"body":"production support, but also they're"},{"startTime":2802.191,"endTime":2807.368,"body":"expected to punch out features in the"},{"startTime":2802.191,"endTime":2807.368,"body":"sprint, can I show those two graphs?"},{"startTime":2808.034,"endTime":2811.32,"body":"Side by side, like assuming I'm not"},{"startTime":2808.034,"endTime":2811.32,"body":"trying to do any monkey business"},{"startTime":2811.32,"endTime":2813.463,"body":"about like, oh, I'm gonna put my"},{"startTime":2811.32,"endTime":2813.463,"body":"support item business inside the"},{"startTime":2813.463,"endTime":2815.263,"body":"sprint and I hope my team can commit."},{"startTime":2815.263,"endTime":2818.406,"body":"Like I'm not, I'm not, I'm not"},{"startTime":2815.263,"endTime":2818.406,"body":"even assuming that I'm doing that."},{"startTime":2818.41,"endTime":2820.034,"body":"I'm assuming already."},{"startTime":2820.349,"endTime":2827.091,"body":"I have a board for production stuff that's"},{"startTime":2820.349,"endTime":2827.091,"body":"com I have a sprint board that's planned"},{"startTime":2827.168,"endTime":2829.863,"body":"in an iteration over a period of time."},{"startTime":2830.52,"endTime":2833.149,"body":"I just wanna show the two"},{"startTime":2830.52,"endTime":2833.149,"body":"over the same period of time."},{"startTime":2833.234,"endTime":2838.168,"body":"That's all I want to do so that I can"},{"startTime":2833.234,"endTime":2838.168,"body":"provoke a discussion with leadership of"},{"startTime":2838.539,"endTime":2843.568,"body":"maybe we need another person dedicated"},{"startTime":2838.539,"endTime":2843.568,"body":"to dealing with support items, or"},{"startTime":2843.568,"endTime":2848.929,"body":"maybe we need another team to knock"},{"startTime":2843.568,"endTime":2848.929,"body":"out sprint, enhancement requests."},{"startTime":2849.187,"endTime":2850.158,"body":"Maybe I need."},{"startTime":2850.529,"endTime":2851.187,"body":"Something else."},{"startTime":2851.187,"endTime":2854.358,"body":"Maybe I need dot, dot, dot, ellipsis,"},{"startTime":2851.187,"endTime":2854.358,"body":"whatever it, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2854.558,"endTime":2858.615,"body":"It, it basically, I'm using metrics"},{"startTime":2854.558,"endTime":2858.615,"body":"now to provoke another conversation."},{"startTime":2858.815,"endTime":2865.044,"body":"So how can I use metrics like"},{"startTime":2858.815,"endTime":2865.044,"body":"not to penalize the team, which"},{"startTime":2865.044,"endTime":2867.872,"body":"again, most of the time Yeah,"},{"startTime":2865.044,"endTime":2867.872,"body":"that's where the metrics are going."},{"startTime":2868.044,"endTime":2869.444,"body":"You're not moving fast enough."},{"startTime":2869.587,"endTime":2872.891,"body":"Keep the situation, you're not breaking"},{"startTime":2869.587,"endTime":2872.891,"body":"these rocks into like a , the pebbles"},{"startTime":2873.006,"endTime":2874.749,"body":"into pebbles fast enough like that."},{"startTime":2874.749,"endTime":2874.92,"body":"Oh my God."},{"startTime":2874.949,"endTime":2876.149,"body":"How, how can I use men?"},{"startTime":2876.291,"endTime":2881.234,"body":"How can I use the metrics to benefit"},{"startTime":2876.291,"endTime":2881.234,"body":"a as opposed to punish my team?"},{"startTime":2882.177,"endTime":2883.063,"body":"It's a great question."},{"startTime":2883.063,"endTime":2886.349,"body":"I think, I mean, one of the things"},{"startTime":2883.063,"endTime":2886.349,"body":"you have to be mindful of is that"},{"startTime":2886.806,"endTime":2891.558,"body":"the, the a ALM tool of choice at your"},{"startTime":2886.806,"endTime":2891.558,"body":"work may not allow you to do this"},{"startTime":2891.558,"endTime":2893.215,"body":"superimposition that we talked about."},{"startTime":2893.215,"endTime":2893.501,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2893.929,"endTime":2895.244,"body":"You may have to do it externally."},{"startTime":2895.558,"endTime":2896.844,"body":"Like manually sure."},{"startTime":2896.844,"endTime":2900.929,"body":"Some of the bigger ALM tools do allow you"},{"startTime":2896.844,"endTime":2900.929,"body":"to create boards out of your sprint work."},{"startTime":2901.244,"endTime":2903.558,"body":"And then you could see different lanes."},{"startTime":2903.701,"endTime":2903.787,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2903.92,"endTime":2906.244,"body":"I, I will jump in I'm trying not to"},{"startTime":2903.92,"endTime":2906.244,"body":"jump in, but I will jump in to say"},{"startTime":2906.244,"endTime":2909.729,"body":"like, leadership is the last people"},{"startTime":2906.244,"endTime":2909.729,"body":"that will care that your tools suck."},{"startTime":2910.025,"endTime":2912.025,"body":"As long as you can present your story."},{"startTime":2912.025,"endTime":2916.596,"body":"Well, I, I feel that's where we're driving"},{"startTime":2912.025,"endTime":2916.596,"body":"is like, you need to show the story of,"},{"startTime":2917.053,"endTime":2924.168,"body":"as like, with the same pool of people as"},{"startTime":2917.053,"endTime":2924.168,"body":"production work increases in volume, the"},{"startTime":2924.168,"endTime":2928.482,"body":"work we're doing on your goal to drive"},{"startTime":2924.168,"endTime":2928.482,"body":"whatever strategy you're driving, I don't"},{"startTime":2928.482,"endTime":2932.739,"body":"know what it is increase retention or"},{"startTime":2928.482,"endTime":2932.739,"body":"increase activation of users or whatever."},{"startTime":2932.739,"endTime":2937.825,"body":"What, I don't know what it is"},{"startTime":2932.739,"endTime":2937.825,"body":"that decreases as the, the,"},{"startTime":2937.825,"endTime":2940.072,"body":"the chaos intensifies it."},{"startTime":2940.077,"endTime":2944.944,"body":"It just comes down to then showing"},{"startTime":2940.077,"endTime":2944.944,"body":"where the teams effort was spent."},{"startTime":2945.001,"endTime":2947.62,"body":"Right, right, right and, and we"},{"startTime":2945.001,"endTime":2947.62,"body":"know what that looks like, right?"},{"startTime":2947.849,"endTime":2949.677,"body":"Typically it's capacity utilization."},{"startTime":2949.677,"endTime":2954.22,"body":"We spent the team's capacity doing"},{"startTime":2949.677,"endTime":2954.22,"body":"this, and the opportunity cost was this."},{"startTime":2954.22,"endTime":2954.306,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2954.534,"endTime":2954.849,"body":", right?"},{"startTime":2954.849,"endTime":2958.22,"body":"If you can show that, which pretty"},{"startTime":2954.849,"endTime":2958.22,"body":"straightforward from most tools,"},{"startTime":2958.734,"endTime":2960.677,"body":"that's the basis of your story."},{"startTime":2960.734,"endTime":2963.706,"body":"And then you have to articulate"},{"startTime":2960.734,"endTime":2963.706,"body":"that with your leadership and say,"},{"startTime":2964.02,"endTime":2966.391,"body":"this is where we're at right now."},{"startTime":2966.62,"endTime":2968.934,"body":"Use the power of trending"},{"startTime":2966.62,"endTime":2968.934,"body":"to your advantage."},{"startTime":2968.963,"endTime":2969.249,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2969.249,"endTime":2971.763,"body":"You can say, this is where we've"},{"startTime":2969.249,"endTime":2971.763,"body":"been for the last three months."},{"startTime":2971.791,"endTime":2971.877,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2972.163,"endTime":2976.477,"body":"And you can see how we're not delivering"},{"startTime":2972.163,"endTime":2976.477,"body":"as much new functionality because"},{"startTime":2976.477,"endTime":2977.991,"body":"we've got all these fires to fight."},{"startTime":2978.02,"endTime":2978.077,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2978.791,"endTime":2981.534,"body":"And then go in and ask as you"},{"startTime":2978.791,"endTime":2981.534,"body":"never get something you don't ask"},{"startTime":2981.534,"endTime":2985.163,"body":"for and say, we need two people in"},{"startTime":2981.534,"endTime":2985.163,"body":"order to stabilize the situation."},{"startTime":2985.534,"endTime":2988.277,"body":"I mean, most leadership would"},{"startTime":2985.534,"endTime":2988.277,"body":"be open to that conversation."},{"startTime":2988.877,"endTime":2991.449,"body":"Management on the other hand,"},{"startTime":2988.877,"endTime":2991.449,"body":"may crack the whip and say,"},{"startTime":2991.449,"endTime":2992.449,"body":"what are these people doing?"},{"startTime":2992.506,"endTime":2993.791,"body":"Hurry up and get more out of them."},{"startTime":2993.991,"endTime":2994.163,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2994.734,"endTime":2996.534,"body":"So you have to deal with"},{"startTime":2994.734,"endTime":2996.534,"body":"that on a separate level."},{"startTime":2996.677,"endTime":3000.363,"body":"So the metrics that I am, because"},{"startTime":2996.677,"endTime":3000.363,"body":"understanding that right now there"},{"startTime":3000.363,"endTime":3004.049,"body":"isn't an option for me to have that"},{"startTime":3000.363,"endTime":3004.049,"body":"conversation there, there just isn't"},{"startTime":3004.049,"endTime":3006.906,"body":"that I, that conversation isn't one"},{"startTime":3004.049,"endTime":3006.906,"body":"that I'm going to be, that I'm going"},{"startTime":3006.906,"endTime":3009.915,"body":"to be able to have just, we're not in"},{"startTime":3006.906,"endTime":3009.915,"body":"a situation at my conversation, the"},{"startTime":3009.92,"endTime":3013.877,"body":"conversation about having, so being"},{"startTime":3009.92,"endTime":3013.877,"body":"able to show, Hey, we, we, we need more"},{"startTime":3013.877,"endTime":3015.106,"body":"we know we need more resources."},{"startTime":3015.22,"endTime":3017.334,"body":"We already know that"},{"startTime":3015.22,"endTime":3017.334,"body":"we're, but we're not going."},{"startTime":3017.649,"endTime":3018.134,"body":"My point is, wait."},{"startTime":3018.201,"endTime":3019.002,"body":"Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa."},{"startTime":3019.007,"endTime":3025.207,"body":"I'm concerned at this point about"},{"startTime":3019.007,"endTime":3025.207,"body":"if leadership truly understands the"},{"startTime":3025.207,"endTime":3028.521,"body":"environment that they're operating in,"},{"startTime":3025.207,"endTime":3028.521,"body":"and, and, and, and you could be like,"},{"startTime":3028.749,"endTime":3031.092,"body":"oh, they understand they just don't care."},{"startTime":3031.292,"endTime":3033.149,"body":"I'm like, well, then"},{"startTime":3031.292,"endTime":3033.149,"body":"what do they care about?"},{"startTime":3033.149,"endTime":3036.764,"body":"Like, and now I would be even"},{"startTime":3033.149,"endTime":3036.764,"body":"more concerned if, I've presented"},{"startTime":3036.769,"endTime":3037.878,"body":"them with all the evidence."},{"startTime":3038.635,"endTime":3043.521,"body":"And they've seen it and they understand"},{"startTime":3038.635,"endTime":3043.521,"body":"that we cannot both deal with the"},{"startTime":3043.692,"endTime":3048.635,"body":"heavy, heavy technical debt issues"},{"startTime":3043.692,"endTime":3048.635,"body":"that we're incurring and also try to"},{"startTime":3048.635,"endTime":3053.407,"body":"push forward future development that"},{"startTime":3048.635,"endTime":3053.407,"body":"brings in future sales and and whatnot."},{"startTime":3053.883,"endTime":3054.74,"body":"They understand that."},{"startTime":3054.883,"endTime":3056.14,"body":"They understand it's not sustainable."},{"startTime":3056.14,"endTime":3057.283,"body":"We have to do one or the other."},{"startTime":3057.34,"endTime":3059.921,"body":"They do understand that"},{"startTime":3057.34,"endTime":3059.921,"body":"they just don't care."},{"startTime":3060.397,"endTime":3062.197,"body":"They're just like, just"},{"startTime":3060.397,"endTime":3062.197,"body":"give me more features."},{"startTime":3062.254,"endTime":3063.54,"body":"I wanna bring in new clients."},{"startTime":3064.111,"endTime":3069.121,"body":"I don't care that new clients all hate the"},{"startTime":3064.111,"endTime":3069.121,"body":"application and that retention is zero."},{"startTime":3069.188,"endTime":3071.44,"body":"They log in once and they"},{"startTime":3069.188,"endTime":3071.44,"body":"don't use it ever again."},{"startTime":3071.669,"endTime":3075.507,"body":"Like that's, that's very concerning"},{"startTime":3071.669,"endTime":3075.507,"body":"in product management in last podcast,"},{"startTime":3075.507,"endTime":3080.307,"body":"we talk about the, the, the pirate"},{"startTime":3075.507,"endTime":3080.307,"body":"metrics, the A A R R R metrics, and"},{"startTime":3080.573,"endTime":3082.164,"body":"you can't maintain any of those."},{"startTime":3082.449,"endTime":3088.411,"body":"If a customer visit visits your site"},{"startTime":3082.449,"endTime":3088.411,"body":"once has such, has so many problems"},{"startTime":3088.416,"endTime":3091.411,"body":"that they just are like, they're"},{"startTime":3088.416,"endTime":3091.411,"body":"just unwilling to come back again."},{"startTime":3091.526,"endTime":3096.307,"body":"And they login once activate"},{"startTime":3091.526,"endTime":3096.307,"body":"once basically got one shot of"},{"startTime":3096.307,"endTime":3098.992,"body":"retention, you don't get them and"},{"startTime":3096.307,"endTime":3098.992,"body":"they, they don't come back again."},{"startTime":3099.23,"endTime":3104.559,"body":"The leadership that is just trying"},{"startTime":3099.23,"endTime":3104.559,"body":"to like, go out, sell something to"},{"startTime":3104.559,"endTime":3109.788,"body":"a big customer, have them pay the"},{"startTime":3104.559,"endTime":3109.788,"body":"money and then move on to the next big"},{"startTime":3109.792,"endTime":3112.702,"body":"customer and then never check back."},{"startTime":3113.516,"endTime":3116.602,"body":"I think I'm may basically explain"},{"startTime":3113.516,"endTime":3116.602,"body":"the, the, the plot of Star Trek two."},{"startTime":3116.802,"endTime":3120.688,"body":"Like, we're, we're gonna, we're gonna,"},{"startTime":3116.802,"endTime":3120.688,"body":"we're gonna we're gonna sell Khan"},{"startTime":3120.688,"endTime":3124.088,"body":"on go living on this planet and then"},{"startTime":3120.688,"endTime":3124.088,"body":"we're never gonna check back on him and"},{"startTime":3124.088,"endTime":3127.745,"body":"then find out his planet was hit by a"},{"startTime":3124.088,"endTime":3127.745,"body":"meteor and now he's living in like the,"},{"startTime":3127.745,"endTime":3132.145,"body":"like the, basically like this, pretty"},{"startTime":3127.745,"endTime":3132.145,"body":"much This is the plot of a movie here."},{"startTime":3132.202,"endTime":3134.802,"body":"Yeah like when, but we don't care"},{"startTime":3132.202,"endTime":3134.802,"body":"about that because like all of our"},{"startTime":3134.802,"endTime":3137.945,"body":"incentives are based on something else."},{"startTime":3138.259,"endTime":3140.859,"body":"We don't care about anyone that"},{"startTime":3138.259,"endTime":3140.859,"body":"we've ever sold the product to."},{"startTime":3141.488,"endTime":3143.716,"body":"So all these people that are over"},{"startTime":3141.488,"endTime":3143.716,"body":"here that have raised, signed the"},{"startTime":3143.716,"endTime":3147.659,"body":"contract, bought, bought the new"},{"startTime":3143.716,"endTime":3147.659,"body":"car, bought the used car at New"},{"startTime":3147.659,"endTime":3149.735,"body":"Car, , I, they don't exist to me."},{"startTime":3149.878,"endTime":3151.307,"body":"They already signed, we got their money."},{"startTime":3151.335,"endTime":3151.878,"body":"They're already care."},{"startTime":3151.983,"endTime":3153.049,"body":"They're, they're already"},{"startTime":3151.983,"endTime":3153.049,"body":"in the assets column."},{"startTime":3153.049,"endTime":3153.354,"body":"Don't, right."},{"startTime":3153.354,"endTime":3153.469,"body":"Don't care."},{"startTime":3153.469,"endTime":3155.364,"body":"So you gotta figure out"},{"startTime":3153.469,"endTime":3155.364,"body":"what the motivation is."},{"startTime":3155.369,"endTime":3158.992,"body":"Maybe they're just looking to"},{"startTime":3155.369,"endTime":3158.992,"body":"increase the revenue numbers"},{"startTime":3158.992,"endTime":3160.107,"body":"cuz they wanna flip the company."},{"startTime":3160.135,"endTime":3160.707,"body":"Who knows?"},{"startTime":3160.707,"endTime":3160.992,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3160.997,"endTime":3162.249,"body":"This happens all the time."},{"startTime":3162.278,"endTime":3164.916,"body":"Are we, are we representing Brian and"},{"startTime":3162.278,"endTime":3164.916,"body":"Om's software development company?"},{"startTime":3165.488,"endTime":3168.202,"body":"If we are, we're not, we're not,"},{"startTime":3165.488,"endTime":3168.202,"body":"we're not representing you very well."},{"startTime":3168.259,"endTime":3171.945,"body":"Brian and Om's software development"},{"startTime":3168.259,"endTime":3171.945,"body":"company is, is a top-notch firm."},{"startTime":3172.088,"endTime":3173.459,"body":"We would never do that."},{"startTime":3173.888,"endTime":3174.459,"body":"Ever."},{"startTime":3174.516,"endTime":3176.145,"body":"Not during the daylight hours."},{"startTime":3176.145,"endTime":3177.316,"body":"Not, not during Daylight."},{"startTime":3177.792,"endTime":3180.049,"body":"There probably are people in"},{"startTime":3177.792,"endTime":3180.049,"body":"the company that, that, I mean,"},{"startTime":3180.049,"endTime":3183.507,"body":"they are playing 3D chess while"},{"startTime":3180.049,"endTime":3183.507,"body":"everyone else is playing checkers."},{"startTime":3183.507,"endTime":3187.307,"body":"Like I, they, they probably are like"},{"startTime":3183.507,"endTime":3187.307,"body":"their incentives and what they're"},{"startTime":3187.311,"endTime":3190.535,"body":"driving and trying to influence"},{"startTime":3187.311,"endTime":3190.535,"body":"other people in the company."},{"startTime":3190.764,"endTime":3193.935,"body":"Like they're not be, they"},{"startTime":3190.764,"endTime":3193.935,"body":"are being disingenuous."},{"startTime":3193.94,"endTime":3194.792,"body":"That's where I'm going with this."},{"startTime":3194.797,"endTime":3195.116,"body":"That's a great word."},{"startTime":3195.402,"endTime":3199.573,"body":"Somebody signed into your product"},{"startTime":3195.402,"endTime":3199.573,"body":"the first time, new, probably has"},{"startTime":3199.573,"endTime":3202.23,"body":"nothing to do with people being"},{"startTime":3199.573,"endTime":3202.23,"body":"actually satisfied that your product."},{"startTime":3202.473,"endTime":3204.473,"body":"Hits the mark and solves the problems."},{"startTime":3204.845,"endTime":3209.302,"body":"So if your salespeople are incentivized"},{"startTime":3204.845,"endTime":3209.302,"body":"on the number of deals that you close"},{"startTime":3209.302,"endTime":3214.94,"body":"and the revenue that those deals bring"},{"startTime":3209.302,"endTime":3214.94,"body":"in on a B2B contract, when every actual"},{"startTime":3214.969,"endTime":3221.597,"body":"customer of that B2B contract that signs"},{"startTime":3214.969,"endTime":3221.597,"body":"on is extremely dissatisfied with the"},{"startTime":3221.626,"endTime":3223.34,"body":"service that you're offering, right?"},{"startTime":3223.854,"endTime":3225.626,"body":"You have a major disconnect."},{"startTime":3225.826,"endTime":3229.54,"body":"And that, that's kind of where I"},{"startTime":3225.826,"endTime":3229.54,"body":"was going with how do metrics affect"},{"startTime":3229.597,"endTime":3230.711,"body":"everything that we're talking about?"},{"startTime":3231.111,"endTime":3232.683,"body":"I mean, they're a center of all this."},{"startTime":3232.683,"endTime":3237.083,"body":"I think we had talked about doing a,"},{"startTime":3232.683,"endTime":3237.083,"body":"a podcast just on metrics that matter."},{"startTime":3237.14,"endTime":3238.854,"body":"This will fit into it quite nicely."},{"startTime":3239.083,"endTime":3239.311,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3239.426,"endTime":3243.781,"body":"It, it behooves us all to figure out what"},{"startTime":3239.426,"endTime":3243.781,"body":"is important to the leadership Of your"},{"startTime":3243.781,"endTime":3246.438,"body":"company, and then align yourself to that."},{"startTime":3246.438,"endTime":3248.924,"body":"Because everything else that you"},{"startTime":3246.438,"endTime":3248.924,"body":"do, you can jump up and down and"},{"startTime":3248.924,"endTime":3253.124,"body":"wave any metric you want that's"},{"startTime":3248.924,"endTime":3253.124,"body":"not theirs and, they don't care."},{"startTime":3253.524,"endTime":3256.353,"body":"I think that that might be the point"},{"startTime":3253.524,"endTime":3256.353,"body":"that, that Brian was getting to"},{"startTime":3256.353,"endTime":3262.248,"body":"though, is that that may be that, that"},{"startTime":3256.353,"endTime":3262.248,"body":"that's kind of a big, a big issue."},{"startTime":3262.276,"endTime":3266.838,"body":"There may some really, really important"},{"startTime":3262.276,"endTime":3266.838,"body":"metrics and it's a huge issue that"},{"startTime":3266.838,"endTime":3272.505,"body":"we are able to potentially show but"},{"startTime":3266.838,"endTime":3272.505,"body":"they dependent on the incentives"},{"startTime":3272.61,"endTime":3274.381,"body":"or what the incentives are behind."},{"startTime":3274.41,"endTime":3274.496,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3274.667,"endTime":3276.724,"body":"And that's with, I guess any company."},{"startTime":3276.724,"endTime":3280.748,"body":"And , always asking yourself, okay, what"},{"startTime":3276.724,"endTime":3280.748,"body":"really is the motivation behind this?"},{"startTime":3280.753,"endTime":3280.919,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":3280.919,"endTime":3281.748,"body":"The incentive."},{"startTime":3281.776,"endTime":3281.862,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3282.176,"endTime":3286.462,"body":", and that's explains so much sometimes is"},{"startTime":3282.176,"endTime":3286.462,"body":"when you think in that, in that manner."}]}