{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.847,"body":"Oh, welcome back to Arguing Agile it's"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.847,"body":"the podcast where I, product manager Brian"},{"startTime":4.847,"endTime":7.88,"body":"Orlando and Enterprise Agility Coach Mr."},{"startTime":7.88,"endTime":8.52,"body":"Om Patel!"},{"startTime":8.619,"endTime":13.018,"body":"We get together and argue all things"},{"startTime":8.619,"endTime":13.018,"body":"agile so you don't have to That's right."},{"startTime":13.108,"endTime":13.588,"body":"You ain't got it."},{"startTime":13.588,"endTime":14.668,"body":"Well, I mean, you can still do it."},{"startTime":14.668,"endTime":15.238,"body":"You can still do it."},{"startTime":15.238,"endTime":16.318,"body":"We're not taking that away from you."},{"startTime":16.318,"endTime":16.678,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":16.708,"endTime":17.458,"body":"Not, not this one."},{"startTime":17.508,"endTime":18.478,"body":"If, if that's what you enjoy."},{"startTime":18.528,"endTime":21.168,"body":"We've been doing a lot of"},{"startTime":18.528,"endTime":21.168,"body":"product topics recently."},{"startTime":21.233,"endTime":25.411,"body":"And I wanted to have a team specific"},{"startTime":21.233,"endTime":25.411,"body":"topic to, to break up the monotony."},{"startTime":25.471,"endTime":29.281,"body":"To be fair, that's what I, to"},{"startTime":25.471,"endTime":29.281,"body":"be fair, I wanted to have to"},{"startTime":29.281,"endTime":31.621,"body":"be fair, a team specific topic."},{"startTime":31.981,"endTime":35.726,"body":"And, I found this Peter Drucker book,"},{"startTime":31.981,"endTime":35.726,"body":"don't Be Scared of the title Post"},{"startTime":35.726,"endTime":38.036,"body":"Capitalist Society by Peter Drucker."},{"startTime":38.516,"endTime":41.456,"body":"because it's not really about"},{"startTime":38.516,"endTime":41.456,"body":"overthrowing the hierarchy and,"},{"startTime":41.506,"endTime":44.126,"body":"instituting a, a new,  anarchic."},{"startTime":44.506,"endTime":45.006,"body":"Anarch anarchist."},{"startTime":45.006,"endTime":45.526,"body":"Anarchist."},{"startTime":45.526,"endTime":45.926,"body":"Anarchist."},{"startTime":45.926,"endTime":48.616,"body":"An anarchist instituting"},{"startTime":45.926,"endTime":48.616,"body":"an, an anarchist society."},{"startTime":48.826,"endTime":50.086,"body":"Yeah, that, I mean, that sounds fun."},{"startTime":50.086,"endTime":51.766,"body":"That sounds like a fun thing"},{"startTime":50.086,"endTime":51.766,"body":"to do on the weekend, but"},{"startTime":51.766,"endTime":52.816,"body":"that's not what this is about."},{"startTime":53.321,"endTime":55.626,"body":"I did read this once to you."},{"startTime":56.146,"endTime":59.706,"body":"But like very quickly as the"},{"startTime":56.146,"endTime":59.706,"body":"elevator pitch for this podcast."},{"startTime":59.706,"endTime":62.106,"body":"Cuz I'm very bad at elevator"},{"startTime":59.706,"endTime":62.106,"body":"pitches and my elevator pitches are"},{"startTime":62.166,"endTime":64.776,"body":"90 seconds long as you see here."},{"startTime":64.856,"endTime":69.961,"body":", but, , I want to read you this and get"},{"startTime":64.856,"endTime":69.961,"body":"your reaction as our expert on teams."},{"startTime":69.997,"endTime":70.537,"body":"Let's do it."},{"startTime":70.567,"endTime":74.797,"body":"What he's saying is the knowledge"},{"startTime":70.567,"endTime":74.797,"body":"workers, in the future of society."},{"startTime":75.162,"endTime":78.882,"body":"the business won't really know what the"},{"startTime":75.162,"endTime":78.882,"body":"knowledge workers do, and the knowledge"},{"startTime":78.882,"endTime":82.422,"body":"workers are the experts at the work . So"},{"startTime":78.882,"endTime":82.422,"body":"you need a different way to manage."},{"startTime":82.452,"endTime":87.212,"body":"And, he says that like, although they did"},{"startTime":82.452,"endTime":87.212,"body":"have teams in the capitalist society in"},{"startTime":87.212,"endTime":89.532,"body":"the, the, the Society of Taylorism, right?"},{"startTime":89.862,"endTime":92.952,"body":"They were different teams, and he"},{"startTime":89.862,"endTime":92.952,"body":"gives some examples to illustrate."},{"startTime":93.042,"endTime":94.692,"body":"So I'm gonna walk through"},{"startTime":93.042,"endTime":94.692,"body":"those examples now."},{"startTime":95.082,"endTime":96.252,"body":"Okay, so here we go."},{"startTime":96.532,"endTime":100.372,"body":"On page 86, he talks about"},{"startTime":96.532,"endTime":100.372,"body":"three different types of teams."},{"startTime":101.167,"endTime":104.047,"body":"There's a second major difference"},{"startTime":101.167,"endTime":104.047,"body":"between the productivity of making"},{"startTime":104.047,"endTime":107.467,"body":"and moving things and the productivity"},{"startTime":104.047,"endTime":107.467,"body":"of knowledge work and service work."},{"startTime":107.947,"endTime":109.597,"body":"That's what I, where I"},{"startTime":107.947,"endTime":109.597,"body":"was leading in, right?"},{"startTime":110.317,"endTime":114.697,"body":"In knowledge and service work, we have to"},{"startTime":110.317,"endTime":114.697,"body":"decide how the work should be organized,"},{"startTime":114.847,"endTime":116.947,"body":"what kind of human team is appropriate."},{"startTime":116.947,"endTime":118.417,"body":"I like human team 1993."},{"startTime":118.717,"endTime":119.317,"body":"What kind of there?"},{"startTime":119.467,"endTime":121.217,"body":"We weren't considered humans in 1993."},{"startTime":121.237,"endTime":122.348,"body":"I dunno if you know that that's true."},{"startTime":122.997,"endTime":125.257,"body":"Uh, what, what kind of human"},{"startTime":122.997,"endTime":125.257,"body":"team is appropriate for this"},{"startTime":125.257,"endTime":126.787,"body":"kind of work and its flow?"},{"startTime":126.967,"endTime":128.737,"body":"Most human work is carried out in teams."},{"startTime":128.857,"endTime":130.567,"body":"Hermits are exceedingly rare."},{"startTime":130.637,"endTime":135.687,"body":"Even the most solitary artists,"},{"startTime":130.637,"endTime":135.687,"body":"writers or painters depend on others"},{"startTime":135.687,"endTime":136.917,"body":"for their work to become effective."},{"startTime":136.917,"endTime":139.077,"body":"The writer on an editor, the printer."},{"startTime":139.082,"endTime":142.737,"body":"A bookstore, the painter on a gallery"},{"startTime":139.082,"endTime":142.737,"body":"to sell his or her work and so on."},{"startTime":142.737,"endTime":145.977,"body":"Most of us work in far closer"},{"startTime":142.737,"endTime":145.977,"body":"relationship to our teammates."},{"startTime":146.532,"endTime":150.006,"body":"There's a great deal of talk today"},{"startTime":146.532,"endTime":150.006,"body":"about quote, creating teamwork."},{"startTime":150.196,"endTime":152.206,"body":"This is largely a misunderstanding."},{"startTime":152.506,"endTime":156.196,"body":"It assumes that the existing"},{"startTime":152.506,"endTime":156.196,"body":"organization is not a team organization"},{"startTime":156.676,"endTime":158.356,"body":"and that is demonstrably false."},{"startTime":159.286,"endTime":163.096,"body":"It secondly assumes that there is"},{"startTime":159.286,"endTime":163.096,"body":"only one kind of team, but in effect,"},{"startTime":163.096,"endTime":166.816,"body":"there are three major kinds of teams"},{"startTime":163.096,"endTime":166.816,"body":"for all human work and for work to"},{"startTime":166.816,"endTime":169.846,"body":"be productive, it has to be organized"},{"startTime":166.816,"endTime":169.846,"body":"into a team that is appropriate"},{"startTime":169.846,"endTime":171.736,"body":"for the work itself and its flow."},{"startTime":172.066,"endTime":173.206,"body":"Let me stop there for a second."},{"startTime":173.866,"endTime":174.376,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":174.436,"endTime":176.776,"body":"He's covered a lot of"},{"startTime":174.436,"endTime":176.776,"body":"ground, uh, right there."},{"startTime":176.806,"endTime":177.046,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":177.046,"endTime":178.366,"body":"For way back in paragraph."},{"startTime":178.576,"endTime":178.816,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":178.876,"endTime":179.356,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":179.465,"endTime":181.295,"body":"While, while you're processing,"},{"startTime":179.465,"endTime":181.295,"body":"while you're spinning, I"},{"startTime":181.3,"endTime":182.495,"body":"see your CPU spinning up."},{"startTime":182.495,"endTime":183.605,"body":"Yeah, definitely is overheating."},{"startTime":183.605,"endTime":183.755,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":183.995,"endTime":185.075,"body":"The cycles are spinning out the"},{"startTime":185.162,"endTime":187.427,"body":"I'd like to take a second to"},{"startTime":185.162,"endTime":187.427,"body":"step back and talk about Why I"},{"startTime":187.432,"endTime":188.717,"body":"pulled this one off the bookshelf."},{"startTime":188.957,"endTime":189.467,"body":"Uh, yes."},{"startTime":189.467,"endTime":190.367,"body":"Better to talk about it."},{"startTime":191.027,"endTime":191.417,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":192.337,"endTime":196.367,"body":"It's amazing that this book was"},{"startTime":192.337,"endTime":196.367,"body":"written in the early nineties, 1994."},{"startTime":196.967,"endTime":199.967,"body":"It, it's funny to me that he's, he's"},{"startTime":196.967,"endTime":199.967,"body":"pointing these things out and he's kind"},{"startTime":199.972,"endTime":203.857,"body":"of outlining these things, uh, that kind"},{"startTime":199.972,"endTime":203.857,"body":"of make us say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":203.927,"endTime":204.347,"body":"Makes sense."},{"startTime":204.347,"endTime":207.093,"body":"It's something that a lot of people"},{"startTime":204.347,"endTime":207.093,"body":"don't think about or whatever because,"},{"startTime":207.147,"endTime":210.389,"body":"where he was and the research he"},{"startTime":207.147,"endTime":210.389,"body":"did, it's like the business world,"},{"startTime":210.397,"endTime":213.637,"body":"just kind of like saw it and read"},{"startTime":210.397,"endTime":213.637,"body":"it and was like, that's interesting."},{"startTime":213.637,"endTime":214.897,"body":"That's a really interesting concept."},{"startTime":214.902,"endTime":217.777,"body":"And then they ignored it and"},{"startTime":214.902,"endTime":217.777,"body":"said, but we know we can figure"},{"startTime":217.777,"endTime":218.677,"body":"out how to do things better."},{"startTime":218.677,"endTime":219.637,"body":"We don't need this."},{"startTime":219.7,"endTime":224.08,"body":"It really makes you wonder why"},{"startTime":219.7,"endTime":224.08,"body":"nothing's moved since that time."},{"startTime":224.11,"endTime":227.41,"body":"You know, until recently, this"},{"startTime":224.11,"endTime":227.41,"body":"hasn't really been talked about much."},{"startTime":227.44,"endTime":227.77,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":229.165,"endTime":231.895,"body":"Now, I guess, or, or even now."},{"startTime":232.135,"endTime":235.855,"body":"Now there's, there's different models"},{"startTime":232.135,"endTime":235.855,"body":"out there for, teamwork and teaming"},{"startTime":235.855,"endTime":237.235,"body":"and team structures, et cetera."},{"startTime":237.625,"endTime":240.685,"body":"But yeah, he was, uh, he was"},{"startTime":237.625,"endTime":240.685,"body":"definitely ahead at that time."},{"startTime":240.925,"endTime":244.285,"body":"Well, there's, there's different models"},{"startTime":240.925,"endTime":244.285,"body":"out there, but, kind of my challenge"},{"startTime":244.285,"endTime":249.555,"body":"very quickly is, the model of I'm the"},{"startTime":244.285,"endTime":249.555,"body":"manager and you do what I say is still,"},{"startTime":250.015,"endTime":252.978,"body":"in my experience, in product development,"},{"startTime":253.498,"endTime":256.318,"body":"The do what I say, manager is"},{"startTime":253.498,"endTime":256.318,"body":"pretty much, I would say the"},{"startTime":256.318,"endTime":258.778,"body":"majority of the team structures."},{"startTime":258.778,"endTime":262.438,"body":"You have a team, it's hierarchical,"},{"startTime":258.778,"endTime":262.438,"body":"you work for somebody, there's a lead,"},{"startTime":262.438,"endTime":264.238,"body":"they have team members under them."},{"startTime":264.238,"endTime":267.688,"body":"And that, like, that org structure is"},{"startTime":264.238,"endTime":267.688,"body":"basically the prevailing org structure."},{"startTime":267.808,"endTime":271.978,"body":"And that org structure basically traces"},{"startTime":267.808,"endTime":271.978,"body":"its roots all the way back to Taylorism."},{"startTime":272.278,"endTime":274.318,"body":"And it, and quite honestly,"},{"startTime":272.278,"endTime":274.318,"body":"doesn't really do much for the"},{"startTime":274.318,"endTime":277.978,"body":"knowledge worker in the modern, you"},{"startTime":274.318,"endTime":277.978,"body":"know, software development team."},{"startTime":278.078,"endTime":279.778,"body":"Yeah, yeah, absolutely Concur with that."},{"startTime":279.778,"endTime":284.108,"body":"I think what's happened is between then"},{"startTime":279.778,"endTime":284.108,"body":"and now, we've, if anything we've seen."},{"startTime":285.128,"endTime":288.138,"body":"The ascent of matrixed"},{"startTime":285.128,"endTime":288.138,"body":"organizations, right?"},{"startTime":288.438,"endTime":291.348,"body":"And that's just made matters"},{"startTime":288.438,"endTime":291.348,"body":"worse when it comes to hierarchy."},{"startTime":291.348,"endTime":294.588,"body":"Now you have a hierarchy of hierarchies"},{"startTime":291.348,"endTime":294.588,"body":"and people aren't really neatly into"},{"startTime":295.128,"endTime":299.418,"body":"a given hierarchy cuz big still and"},{"startTime":295.128,"endTime":299.418,"body":"borrow right, quote unquote resources."},{"startTime":299.478,"endTime":299.568,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":299.928,"endTime":304.188,"body":"I, you know, I think to your point,"},{"startTime":299.928,"endTime":304.188,"body":"are the models today any good?"},{"startTime":305.238,"endTime":306.768,"body":"We have a lot of them, right?"},{"startTime":307.038,"endTime":312.878,"body":"So today the, I guess the devil"},{"startTime":307.038,"endTime":312.878,"body":"in me wants to say, try one."},{"startTime":313.278,"endTime":316.698,"body":"But if you really examine those"},{"startTime":313.278,"endTime":316.698,"body":"and, and you look at that against"},{"startTime":316.703,"endTime":319.368,"body":"the backdrop, the type of work"},{"startTime":316.703,"endTime":319.368,"body":"that people are doing today mm-hmm."},{"startTime":319.453,"endTime":321.078,"body":"I think there's a misfit there."},{"startTime":321.598,"endTime":326.498,"body":"this idea of a, of a hierarchical"},{"startTime":321.598,"endTime":326.498,"body":"manager, cuz in our leader, basically"},{"startTime":326.498,"endTime":328.568,"body":"saying, do this, do this by this date."},{"startTime":328.658,"endTime":328.958,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":328.964,"endTime":330.728,"body":"Do it the way I say you should do it."},{"startTime":330.728,"endTime":330.818,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":331.118,"endTime":334.149,"body":"That's still, to your point, it's"},{"startTime":331.118,"endTime":334.149,"body":"very prevalent today and I think"},{"startTime":334.154,"endTime":335.888,"body":"we're suffering as a result of that."},{"startTime":335.938,"endTime":337.618,"body":"especially in, in knowledge work."},{"startTime":337.618,"endTime":337.888,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":337.908,"endTime":338.028,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":338.033,"endTime":341.008,"body":"Not just software development, but"},{"startTime":338.033,"endTime":341.008,"body":"pretty much any type of knowledge work."},{"startTime":341.198,"endTime":345.513,"body":"Let's step back for a second and talk"},{"startTime":341.198,"endTime":345.513,"body":"about a, like a, a podcast series that"},{"startTime":345.513,"endTime":349.683,"body":"we, would like to do, but uh, like"},{"startTime":345.513,"endTime":349.683,"body":"are kind of afraid to, cuz everyone,"},{"startTime":349.688,"endTime":352.328,"body":"moans and groans when you bring up"},{"startTime":349.688,"endTime":352.328,"body":"the topic of an agile transformation."},{"startTime":352.333,"endTime":357.988,"body":"But the, I I, I feel the agile community"},{"startTime":352.333,"endTime":357.988,"body":"specifically have been undermined by"},{"startTime":358.168,"endTime":360.848,"body":"what we're talking about here is the"},{"startTime":358.168,"endTime":360.848,"body":"organization and the people running"},{"startTime":360.848,"endTime":366.788,"body":"the organization do not fully grasp"},{"startTime":360.848,"endTime":366.788,"body":"or understand teams and team concepts."},{"startTime":367.058,"endTime":369.608,"body":"The concept of teams and what teams"},{"startTime":367.058,"endTime":369.608,"body":"are for, and how the different"},{"startTime":369.608,"endTime":373.388,"body":"types of teams, they don't grasp"},{"startTime":369.608,"endTime":373.388,"body":"this and they don't understand"},{"startTime":373.388,"endTime":374.648,"body":"what it takes to make a good team."},{"startTime":374.698,"endTime":377.708,"body":"but the thing they know is what they"},{"startTime":374.698,"endTime":377.708,"body":"were taught in their MBA,  there's"},{"startTime":377.713,"endTime":382.028,"body":"a org hierarchy and you gotta move"},{"startTime":377.713,"endTime":382.028,"body":"resources from one resource manager to"},{"startTime":382.028,"endTime":383.423,"body":"another and that's the way they view it."},{"startTime":384.423,"endTime":384.663,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":384.783,"endTime":388.443,"body":"And, and the other thing that, uh, is"},{"startTime":384.783,"endTime":388.443,"body":"pushed and I,, I would say HR is not"},{"startTime":388.443,"endTime":389.823,"body":"helping with this either, but Yeah."},{"startTime":389.913,"endTime":391.923,"body":"No, they're, they're the"},{"startTime":389.913,"endTime":391.923,"body":"drivers in many cases."},{"startTime":392.233,"endTime":395.958,"body":"But the other thing is this,"},{"startTime":392.233,"endTime":395.958,"body":"this overwhelming, emphasis on"},{"startTime":395.958,"endTime":398.328,"body":"keeping people busy, utilization."},{"startTime":398.358,"endTime":398.448,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":398.448,"endTime":401.868,"body":"People must be utilized, otherwise"},{"startTime":398.448,"endTime":401.868,"body":"they're underutilized, we're losing money."},{"startTime":401.948,"endTime":404.468,"body":"Unfortunately, that, again, is"},{"startTime":401.948,"endTime":404.468,"body":"way too prevalent out there."},{"startTime":404.718,"endTime":408.338,"body":"Well, that's, you know, I, I, I"},{"startTime":404.718,"endTime":408.338,"body":"actually, uh, I had a discussion"},{"startTime":408.338,"endTime":413.078,"body":"today about this exact subject we were"},{"startTime":408.338,"endTime":413.078,"body":"talking about the book 4,000 Weeks."},{"startTime":413.488,"endTime":415.708,"body":"So many people were kind of"},{"startTime":413.488,"endTime":415.708,"body":"shocked after they read the book."},{"startTime":415.788,"endTime":418.578,"body":"a new world has opened up because I,"},{"startTime":415.788,"endTime":418.578,"body":"I've been taught and I've been trained,"},{"startTime":418.583,"endTime":419.688,"body":"and I've been conditioned, conditioned."},{"startTime":419.748,"endTime":420.528,"body":"That's what I'm looking for."},{"startTime":420.848,"endTime":424.508,"body":"I've been conditioned to"},{"startTime":420.848,"endTime":424.508,"body":"feel like I have to pack."},{"startTime":424.838,"endTime":428.138,"body":"Every single day with as much"},{"startTime":424.838,"endTime":428.138,"body":"being as productive as possible."},{"startTime":428.168,"endTime":430.208,"body":"And the book basically"},{"startTime":428.168,"endTime":430.208,"body":"is like, well, but why?"},{"startTime":430.778,"endTime":430.958,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":430.958,"endTime":433.898,"body":"And I, I, as a product manager,"},{"startTime":430.958,"endTime":433.898,"body":"I'm like, well, yeah, of course."},{"startTime":433.958,"endTime":434.618,"body":"Like that, like that."},{"startTime":434.648,"endTime":437.728,"body":"That's just the way that I think, like,"},{"startTime":434.648,"endTime":437.728,"body":"this is something I say a lot in product"},{"startTime":437.733,"endTime":442.328,"body":"management's, like prioritization the"},{"startTime":437.733,"endTime":442.328,"body":"outcome of prioritization is in no way,"},{"startTime":442.328,"endTime":444.978,"body":"shape, or form, a signal for value."},{"startTime":445.708,"endTime":448.868,"body":"Just because you've decided are you,"},{"startTime":445.708,"endTime":448.868,"body":"this is your number one priority Om!"},{"startTime":448.888,"endTime":450.028,"body":"You've gotta get this done."},{"startTime":450.598,"endTime":452.398,"body":"And it also has absolutely no value."},{"startTime":452.398,"endTime":455.818,"body":"That's why like online, like on LinkedIn,"},{"startTime":452.398,"endTime":455.818,"body":"you see people, uh, especially the"},{"startTime":455.818,"endTime":458.688,"body":"the growth product manager people,"},{"startTime":455.818,"endTime":458.688,"body":"they're making a real killing off of,"},{"startTime":458.688,"endTime":462.228,"body":"uh, slamming on Agile cuz they're like,"},{"startTime":458.688,"endTime":462.228,"body":"you can have the greatest agile team"},{"startTime":462.228,"endTime":465.078,"body":"following the greatest agile processes"},{"startTime":462.228,"endTime":465.078,"body":"and the product you put out at the"},{"startTime":465.083,"endTime":469.188,"body":"end, nobody wants, nobody wants to use"},{"startTime":465.083,"endTime":469.188,"body":"and it's all garbage, which I like."},{"startTime":469.968,"endTime":473.418,"body":"That's, they're doing that to, you"},{"startTime":469.968,"endTime":473.418,"body":"know, start a fight on LinkedIn and"},{"startTime":473.418,"endTime":474.558,"body":"get engagement and stuff like that."},{"startTime":474.558,"endTime":477.798,"body":"But because we all know, like if you"},{"startTime":474.558,"endTime":477.798,"body":"actually are getting customer feedback"},{"startTime":477.803,"endTime":481.308,"body":"and you're actually listening to them,"},{"startTime":477.803,"endTime":481.308,"body":"not just saying, yep, the customer was"},{"startTime":481.313,"endTime":485.425,"body":"at the meeting, check the box, you're"},{"startTime":481.313,"endTime":485.425,"body":"basically doing what they are claiming"},{"startTime":485.425,"endTime":488.195,"body":"is a completely different discipline"},{"startTime":485.425,"endTime":488.195,"body":"with a completely different skillset."},{"startTime":488.215,"endTime":488.705,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":488.725,"endTime":491.455,"body":"But this is not the podcast of that."},{"startTime":491.455,"endTime":493.315,"body":"That might be an upcoming"},{"startTime":491.455,"endTime":493.315,"body":"podcast, I think."},{"startTime":493.315,"endTime":494.425,"body":"I think it might be, yeah."},{"startTime":494.43,"endTime":494.465,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":494.575,"endTime":496.105,"body":"I think they'd have"},{"startTime":494.575,"endTime":496.105,"body":"something to say about that."},{"startTime":496.405,"endTime":497.154,"body":"They like hot takes..."},{"startTime":497.265,"endTime":497.565,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":497.565,"endTime":502.655,"body":"I think what we've seen, um, since 1994"},{"startTime":497.565,"endTime":502.655,"body":"was it, different models evolve and"},{"startTime":503.525,"endTime":507.905,"body":"honestly my experience has been none of"},{"startTime":503.525,"endTime":507.905,"body":"the models really headed out of the park."},{"startTime":508.055,"endTime":510.985,"body":"Most of them have their pros"},{"startTime":508.055,"endTime":510.985,"body":"and cons, like any model really."},{"startTime":511.525,"endTime":514.855,"body":"But the, the important thing"},{"startTime":511.525,"endTime":514.855,"body":"is nobody really implements"},{"startTime":514.915,"endTime":516.673,"body":"any of these by the book."},{"startTime":516.773,"endTime":521.333,"body":"So they dabble and then they"},{"startTime":516.773,"endTime":521.333,"body":"say, this doesn't work here."},{"startTime":521.393,"endTime":521.483,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":521.483,"endTime":522.503,"body":"So we're gonna change it up."},{"startTime":522.533,"endTime":524.243,"body":"Now you've already gone"},{"startTime":522.533,"endTime":524.243,"body":"away from the model, right?"},{"startTime":524.573,"endTime":528.533,"body":"And, and then what you have is a"},{"startTime":524.573,"endTime":528.533,"body":"hybridized version of that model."},{"startTime":528.803,"endTime":531.353,"body":"are there actual team models out there?"},{"startTime":531.353,"endTime":534.053,"body":"Like I don't think I've ever seen a,"},{"startTime":531.353,"endTime":534.053,"body":"like, this is the way you should structure"},{"startTime":534.383,"endTime":538.283,"body":"your teams other than, other than the"},{"startTime":534.383,"endTime":538.283,"body":"early scrum guides that, like when we"},{"startTime":538.283,"endTime":541.463,"body":"tried last podcast to say, like, where,"},{"startTime":538.283,"endTime":541.463,"body":"where's the thing that says your team ever"},{"startTime":541.463,"endTime":543.023,"body":"should be dedicated to the Scrum team?"},{"startTime":543.053,"endTime":545.813,"body":"And we couldn't find it cuz it, it had"},{"startTime":543.053,"endTime":545.813,"body":"been rolled out of the scrum guide."},{"startTime":546.203,"endTime":548.317,"body":"But, are there team models?"},{"startTime":548.347,"endTime":551.467,"body":"Other than Team Topologies, which we"},{"startTime":548.347,"endTime":551.467,"body":"covered on another podcast, I see the team"},{"startTime":551.557,"endTime":553.207,"body":"topologies guys out there on the internet."},{"startTime":553.207,"endTime":557.107,"body":"Man, Manuel Pias and uh, uh,"},{"startTime":553.207,"endTime":557.107,"body":"Skelton and yeah, Matthew Skelton."},{"startTime":557.112,"endTime":560.307,"body":"I, I see them out there trying to help"},{"startTime":557.112,"endTime":560.307,"body":"people, trying to say, Hey, this is a"},{"startTime":560.307,"endTime":562.017,"body":"better way, you know, catch onto it."},{"startTime":562.017,"endTime":564.777,"body":"And then I see like the, the, the"},{"startTime":562.017,"endTime":564.777,"body":"Spotify, you know, the people trying"},{"startTime":564.777,"endTime":566.097,"body":"to copy Spotify and stuff like that."},{"startTime":566.247,"endTime":566.337,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":566.337,"endTime":569.457,"body":"And it always fails cuz they, they"},{"startTime":566.337,"endTime":569.457,"body":"try to copy Spotify until an actual"},{"startTime":569.457,"endTime":571.827,"body":"decision needs to be made and then they"},{"startTime":569.457,"endTime":571.827,"body":"revert back to command and control."},{"startTime":571.827,"endTime":576.807,"body":"But, but, but like, I, so I guess"},{"startTime":571.827,"endTime":576.807,"body":"there, there are a few models"},{"startTime":576.807,"endTime":577.947,"body":"that are floating out there."},{"startTime":578.047,"endTime":579.877,"body":"well, scrum, scrum"},{"startTime":578.047,"endTime":579.877,"body":"itself is a model, right?"},{"startTime":579.937,"endTime":582.487,"body":"I mean, you know, guess five"},{"startTime":579.937,"endTime":582.487,"body":"to seven people, et cetera."},{"startTime":582.487,"endTime":583.267,"body":"That's a model."},{"startTime":583.577,"endTime":586.692,"body":"and then there are other models"},{"startTime":583.577,"endTime":586.692,"body":"which are different than that, right?"},{"startTime":586.752,"endTime":590.402,"body":"Like, uh, holocracies, these"},{"startTime":586.752,"endTime":590.402,"body":"are more organizational models."},{"startTime":590.402,"endTime":590.762,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":590.862,"endTime":592.542,"body":"But you could, you could"},{"startTime":590.862,"endTime":592.542,"body":"extend the argument."},{"startTime":592.542,"endTime":596.712,"body":"They, you can extend the argument that"},{"startTime":592.542,"endTime":596.712,"body":"they could be applied at a team level."},{"startTime":596.772,"endTime":599.832,"body":"Yeah, but again, not really"},{"startTime":596.772,"endTime":599.832,"body":"seeing that done well anywhere."},{"startTime":599.922,"endTime":600.282,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":600.572,"endTime":602.502,"body":"Kanban, I guess, could"},{"startTime":600.572,"endTime":602.502,"body":"be implemented as a team."},{"startTime":603.077,"endTime":606.967,"body":"Like a, like a concentric teams"},{"startTime":603.077,"endTime":606.967,"body":"that work with other teams,"},{"startTime":606.967,"endTime":607.747,"body":"that work with other teams."},{"startTime":607.777,"endTime":610.747,"body":"And in fact, you could run a whole"},{"startTime":607.777,"endTime":610.747,"body":"organization off Kanban if you wanted a"},{"startTime":610.747,"endTime":615.337,"body":"process to, to layer down to, to give your"},{"startTime":610.747,"endTime":615.337,"body":"business a bit of process to, to, to, to"},{"startTime":615.337,"endTime":618.817,"body":"help with prioritization, to help with"},{"startTime":615.337,"endTime":618.817,"body":"breaking stuff down larger rocks in the"},{"startTime":618.822,"endTime":622.027,"body":"small rocks or whatever, kanban kind of"},{"startTime":618.822,"endTime":622.027,"body":"helps you all the way, all the way from"},{"startTime":622.027,"endTime":625.267,"body":"the executive level, all the way down at"},{"startTime":622.027,"endTime":625.267,"body":"l levels of the organization and, and can."},{"startTime":625.687,"endTime":626.887,"body":"Quote scale, I guess."},{"startTime":626.887,"endTime":629.917,"body":"But that's a great example of"},{"startTime":626.887,"endTime":629.917,"body":"another model that hasn't been"},{"startTime":629.947,"endTime":631.447,"body":"really implemented very well."},{"startTime":631.447,"endTime":634.357,"body":"It's kaban, yeah, right, it's"},{"startTime":631.447,"endTime":634.357,"body":"easy to explain, but it requires"},{"startTime":634.357,"endTime":635.527,"body":"some discipline, uh, yeah."},{"startTime":635.527,"endTime":636.907,"body":"To actually practice."},{"startTime":636.967,"endTime":637.027,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":637.327,"endTime":640.927,"body":"And you've seen all kinds"},{"startTime":637.327,"endTime":640.927,"body":"of malpractices out there."},{"startTime":641.107,"endTime":641.227,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":641.257,"endTime":645.797,"body":"Also, uh, is this the time to bring"},{"startTime":641.257,"endTime":645.797,"body":"up Nobody's making money off a Kanban?"},{"startTime":645.817,"endTime":647.017,"body":"Is this, is this time for that?"},{"startTime":647.017,"endTime":648.307,"body":"I don't think, I don't"},{"startTime":647.017,"endTime":648.307,"body":"think this is the podcast."},{"startTime":648.307,"endTime":649.807,"body":"No, this is not the podcast for that."},{"startTime":649.807,"endTime":650.227,"body":"Just checking."},{"startTime":652.417,"endTime":653.977,"body":"There are a few people"},{"startTime":652.417,"endTime":653.977,"body":"that are doing Kanban Cert."},{"startTime":654.067,"endTime":656.75,"body":"Why the, why the Kanban"},{"startTime":654.067,"endTime":656.75,"body":"certification so expensive."},{"startTime":656.81,"endTime":657.74,"body":"I'd like to know that too."},{"startTime":657.74,"endTime":659.06,"body":"They're ridiculously expensive."},{"startTime":659.49,"endTime":661.1,"body":"Somebody's making a ton of"},{"startTime":659.49,"endTime":661.1,"body":"money out of these things."},{"startTime":661.25,"endTime":661.85,"body":"Oh man."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":663.68,"endTime":666.95,"body":"so he says, the first kind"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":663.68,"endTime":666.95,"body":"of team is exemplified by"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":666.98,"endTime":668.54,"body":"the baseball or cricket team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":668.81,"endTime":672.32,"body":"It is also the kind of team that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":668.81,"endTime":672.32,"body":"operates on a patient in a hospital."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":672.83,"endTime":676.88,"body":"In this team, all players play on the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":672.83,"endTime":676.88,"body":"team, but they do not play as a team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":677.21,"endTime":680.93,"body":"So he says each, each player on a"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":677.21,"endTime":680.93,"body":"baseball or cricket team has a fixed"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":681.37,"endTime":682.61,"body":"position, which he never leaves."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":682.79,"endTime":683.57,"body":"In baseball."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":683.57,"endTime":685.49,"body":"The outfielders never assist each other."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":685.67,"endTime":687.42,"body":"They will stay in their"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":685.67,"endTime":687.42,"body":"respective positions."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":687.44,"endTime":689.27,"body":"If you're up at bat,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":687.44,"endTime":689.27,"body":"you are totally alone."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":689.27,"endTime":690.47,"body":"Is an old baseball saying."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":690.56,"endTime":693.74,"body":"Similarly, the anesthesiologist"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":690.56,"endTime":693.74,"body":"will not come to the age of the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":693.74,"endTime":695.25,"body":"surgical nurse or the surgeon."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":695.425,"endTime":697.975,"body":"he says, this team does"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":695.425,"endTime":697.975,"body":"not enjoy good press today."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":698.185,"endTime":701.665,"body":"In fact, when people talk about"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":698.185,"endTime":701.665,"body":"building teams, quote, building teams,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":702.485,"endTime":705.335,"body":"they usually mean that they wanna"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":702.485,"endTime":705.335,"body":"move away from this kind of team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":705.395,"endTime":708.665,"body":"Yet the baseball or cricket team"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":705.395,"endTime":708.665,"body":"has great strengths that should"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":708.665,"endTime":711.995,"body":"not be discounted because all"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":708.665,"endTime":711.995,"body":"players occupy fixed positions."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":712.115,"endTime":715.145,"body":"They can be given specific tasks"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":712.115,"endTime":715.145,"body":"of their own, can be measured by"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":715.145,"endTime":718.251,"body":"performance  scores for each task"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":715.145,"endTime":718.251,"body":"can be trained for each tasks."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":718.461,"endTime":721.641,"body":"It is by no means accidental that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":718.461,"endTime":721.641,"body":"both baseball and cricket are,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":721.851,"endTime":725.451,"body":"that there are stats for every"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":721.851,"endTime":725.451,"body":"player going back for decades."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":725.601,"endTime":728.031,"body":"The surgical team and the hospital"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":725.601,"endTime":728.031,"body":"functions much in the same way."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":728.781,"endTime":730.131,"body":"He's got a point there, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":730.131,"endTime":734.241,"body":"So this is, again, look, look,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":730.131,"endTime":734.241,"body":"the, the time where he wrote this."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":734.991,"endTime":738.591,"body":"It was basically the time of the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":734.991,"endTime":738.591,"body":"eye shaped individuals, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":738.591,"endTime":738.651,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":738.861,"endTime":740.811,"body":"Everybody who was an"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":738.861,"endTime":740.811,"body":"expert in what they did."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":740.841,"endTime":740.991,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":741.061,"endTime":744.351,"body":"And, and he's got a couple of examples"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":741.061,"endTime":744.351,"body":"there, sports as well as, the hospital"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":744.351,"endTime":746.281,"body":"setting that, that he, portrays there."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":746.321,"endTime":746.521,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":747.031,"endTime":749.791,"body":"You had a skillset that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":747.031,"endTime":749.791,"body":"you acquired over time."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":750.151,"endTime":752.011,"body":"You paid handsomely"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":750.151,"endTime":752.011,"body":"for it probably, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":752.011,"endTime":753.871,"body":"But then, and then you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":752.011,"endTime":753.871,"body":"practice that, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":753.876,"endTime":754.081,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":754.141,"endTime":759.841,"body":"So without you in as a, as an integral"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":754.141,"endTime":759.841,"body":"cog in the machine, it doesn't work."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":760.351,"endTime":762.331,"body":"that was the prevalent model at the time."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":762.361,"endTime":767.351,"body":"And I dare say it still is prevalent,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":762.361,"endTime":767.351,"body":"but it's, it's getting changed, I"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":767.351,"endTime":771.611,"body":"should say, in, in quite a few areas"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":767.351,"endTime":771.611,"body":"that are sports is another example."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":771.661,"endTime":777.141,"body":"Let's apply this to software development,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":771.661,"endTime":777.141,"body":"but apply it in a way where it's lacking"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":777.141,"endTime":781.071,"body":"in sophistication where you say, oh,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":777.141,"endTime":781.071,"body":"well I've hired a developer, they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":781.071,"endTime":782.601,"body":"should be able to develop anything."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":782.751,"endTime":788.751,"body":"Well, but which is kind of, uh, if you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":782.751,"endTime":788.751,"body":"look at it that way, you, I could argue"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":788.751,"endTime":790.881,"body":"for the like, hello, we're arguing agile."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":791.181,"endTime":793.851,"body":"I could argue for this"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":791.181,"endTime":793.851,"body":"from that perspective."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":793.851,"endTime":794.781,"body":"I know I would be wrong."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":794.781,"endTime":797.721,"body":"So I'm not even gonna try because"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":794.781,"endTime":797.721,"body":"it's ridiculous to say like,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":797.721,"endTime":799.431,"body":"well, just hire me any developer."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":799.491,"endTime":802.821,"body":"Like, like you gonna hire"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":799.491,"endTime":802.821,"body":"a job and developer Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":802.821,"endTime":804.951,"body":"To work in a.net shop,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":802.821,"endTime":804.951,"body":"or you gonna work a Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":804.951,"endTime":806.721,"body":"A front end developer to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":804.951,"endTime":806.721,"body":"work on backend stuff."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":806.721,"endTime":810.711,"body":"Or I've been in shops where we take"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":806.721,"endTime":810.711,"body":"a frontend developer and ask them"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":810.711,"endTime":813.891,"body":"to do backend tasks because, just"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":810.711,"endTime":813.891,"body":"because we had a lot of backend tasks."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":813.891,"endTime":817.461,"body":"And also because the shop, well also"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":813.891,"endTime":817.461,"body":"because development, leadership,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":818.024,"endTime":821.984,"body":"slowly over time is trying to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":818.024,"endTime":821.984,"body":"grow full stack engineers out of"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":821.984,"endTime":823.724,"body":"their front and backend talent."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":823.724,"endTime":825.464,"body":"They're trying to help"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":823.724,"endTime":825.464,"body":"people develop their skills."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":826.226,"endTime":830.036,"body":"I feel the people that would"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":826.226,"endTime":830.036,"body":"engage in this kind of view, Of"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":830.036,"endTime":831.536,"body":"saying like, I have a developer."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":831.636,"endTime":834.966,"body":"What does it matter if they, their"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":831.636,"endTime":834.966,"body":"expertise is first base or, you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":834.966,"endTime":836.406,"body":"know, left field or whatever."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":836.406,"endTime":838.296,"body":"Like a right field or"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":836.406,"endTime":838.296,"body":"what, like the outfield."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":838.356,"endTime":838.596,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":838.616,"endTime":838.936,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":838.936,"endTime":840.666,"body":"That's a big, that's a big"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":838.936,"endTime":840.666,"body":"difference in position though."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":840.666,"endTime":841.386,"body":"Of course there is."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":841.386,"endTime":841.596,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":841.596,"endTime":844.476,"body":"So that's like saying, look, you've"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":841.596,"endTime":844.476,"body":"got a, a person who can paint"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":844.476,"endTime":848.286,"body":"a house, get them to commission"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":844.476,"endTime":848.286,"body":"them to make a portrait of me."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":848.286,"endTime":848.556,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":848.826,"endTime":849.516,"body":"Paint the Mona Lisa!"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":849.546,"endTime":850.596,"body":"Yeah, paint the Mona Lisa."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":850.596,"endTime":851.076,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":851.406,"endTime":852.096,"body":"They're a painter."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":852.156,"endTime":856.206,"body":"They can do it, you know, shove 'em up"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":852.156,"endTime":856.206,"body":"on a rig and say, do the Sistine chapel."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":856.206,"endTime":857.106,"body":"Come on, you can do it."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":857.886,"endTime":858.186,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":858.456,"endTime":863.256,"body":"So I, but I do have to say the other side"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":858.456,"endTime":863.256,"body":"of that, which is since then and now what"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":863.261,"endTime":867.846,"body":"we're seeing is just to use his example"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":863.261,"endTime":867.846,"body":"of sports, another sports where people"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":867.846,"endTime":871.176,"body":"can actually fill into a another position."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":871.476,"endTime":874.416,"body":"And that's, that's not just"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":871.476,"endTime":874.416,"body":"accidental, that is deliberate."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":874.516,"endTime":876.196,"body":"They evolve to fill in."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":876.226,"endTime":876.426,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":876.426,"endTime":880.336,"body":"Like in soccer, like in even, I'd say"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":876.426,"endTime":880.336,"body":"even in ice hockey, you have people"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":880.336,"endTime":883.726,"body":"that will rush forward and then you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":880.336,"endTime":883.726,"body":"have others that will fall back."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":884.251,"endTime":885.301,"body":"To fill the void."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":885.306,"endTime":889.876,"body":"And if you just did that because of that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":885.306,"endTime":889.876,"body":"specific, occurrence, that wouldn't work."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":889.876,"endTime":892.876,"body":"Cuz it's just a warm body in the right"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":889.876,"endTime":892.876,"body":"spot, but they don't have the skills."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":892.936,"endTime":893.026,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":893.146,"endTime":894.706,"body":"So people have to train for that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":895.036,"endTime":896.086,"body":"And I think that's happening."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":896.296,"endTime":897.616,"body":"Yeah, to a certain degree."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":897.676,"endTime":899.656,"body":"Probably a lot lesser degree I would say."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":899.656,"endTime":901.366,"body":"It's happening in"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":899.656,"endTime":901.366,"body":"software development too."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":901.606,"endTime":904.486,"body":"So you have people that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":901.606,"endTime":904.486,"body":"can write a script."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":904.486,"endTime":907.676,"body":"You have developers, sorry,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":904.486,"endTime":907.676,"body":"you have testers that can"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":907.766,"endTime":908.996,"body":"develop, they're technical."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":909.026,"endTime":912.296,"body":"They write, they write test cases,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":909.026,"endTime":912.296,"body":"test scenarios all the time."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":912.296,"endTime":914.006,"body":"That's not, that's coding basically."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":914.066,"endTime":917.606,"body":"Uh, so if they sit alongside a developer,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":914.066,"endTime":917.606,"body":"they're acquiring these skills, they're"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":917.611,"endTime":921.146,"body":"growing those skills to the point"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":917.611,"endTime":921.146,"body":"where can they become a developer?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":921.146,"endTime":924.746,"body":"Only if they want it to over time,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":921.146,"endTime":924.746,"body":"but they can pinch hit for somebody."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":924.866,"endTime":928.406,"body":"And that's the T shape that we're, we're"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":924.866,"endTime":928.406,"body":"talking about often on this podcast."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":929.451,"endTime":934.611,"body":"the people managing the team he's talking"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":929.451,"endTime":934.611,"body":"about here, everybody has a specific spot."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":934.921,"endTime":939.661,"body":"I think of all of the engineering"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":934.921,"endTime":939.661,"body":"leaders that I've been coupled with in"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":939.666,"endTime":944.401,"body":"my career who really were like, you could"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":939.666,"endTime":944.401,"body":"not shake their opinion that the best"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":944.401,"endTime":947.881,"body":"way to run an engineering team was to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":944.401,"endTime":947.881,"body":"have front end developers and backend"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":947.881,"endTime":951.991,"body":"developers and keep them dedicated to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":947.881,"endTime":951.991,"body":"just front-end work and just backend work."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":952.231,"endTime":957.161,"body":"That the teams had no full stack"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":952.231,"endTime":957.161,"body":"developers, real tight specializations"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":957.241,"endTime":962.146,"body":"and, and, and crossing work between"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":957.241,"endTime":962.146,"body":"developers outside of their specialization"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":962.146,"endTime":964.547,"body":"was, was not, uh, taboo, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":964.552,"endTime":965.866,"body":"It was, it was not encouraged."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":966.016,"endTime":968.206,"body":"That's the general specialist at best."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":968.206,"endTime":968.446,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":968.446,"endTime":971.686,"body":"So you're a specialist and if you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":968.446,"endTime":971.686,"body":"say, well, look, so-and-so's not"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":971.691,"endTime":973.036,"body":"here today, can I lend a hand?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":973.516,"endTime":974.176,"body":"It's not your role."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":974.566,"endTime":974.776,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":974.806,"endTime":974.966,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":974.966,"endTime":976.126,"body":"That's not your job's."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":976.126,"endTime":976.666,"body":"That's not your job."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":976.666,"endTime":976.966,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":977.386,"endTime":977.746,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":977.751,"endTime":980.866,"body":"I, I think this shift to that from"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":977.751,"endTime":980.866,"body":"the other's perspective is to, to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":980.866,"endTime":983.596,"body":"be a special generalist, I guess."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":983.936,"endTime":987.861,"body":"But somebody who does really well"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":983.936,"endTime":987.861,"body":"at their core  skillset, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":987.866,"endTime":988.071,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":988.191,"endTime":989.931,"body":"But they can also lend a hand."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":990.081,"endTime":990.231,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":990.261,"endTime":995.091,"body":"That's different from give that person"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":990.261,"endTime":995.091,"body":"the same responsibilities, the same"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":995.091,"endTime":999.101,"body":"accountabilities as the other person who's"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":995.091,"endTime":999.101,"body":"an expert in their own field, I've seen"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":999.101,"endTime":1003.466,"body":"architects do this quite a bit and, and"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":999.101,"endTime":1003.466,"body":"then they become, What is now, I guess"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1003.471,"endTime":1005.476,"body":"referred to as the M shape now, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1005.476,"endTime":1010.156,"body":"Where the M four multiple, so they become"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1005.476,"endTime":1010.156,"body":"specialists in multiple technologies."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1010.396,"endTime":1014.866,"body":"You're a cloud technology expert"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1010.396,"endTime":1014.866,"body":"in aws, and then you become a cloud"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1014.871,"endTime":1016.846,"body":"technology expert in something else."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1016.846,"endTime":1017.846,"body":"Google or Azure."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1017.896,"endTime":1021.316,"body":"That was the core idea of, of"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1017.896,"endTime":1021.316,"body":"DevOps is if you build it, you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1021.321,"endTime":1024.886,"body":"own it and, and you're going to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1021.321,"endTime":1024.886,"body":"need to understand more than just."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1026.011,"endTime":1030.211,"body":"Tiny little slice of a language"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1026.011,"endTime":1030.211,"body":"that you primarily develop in, in"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1030.211,"endTime":1032.101,"body":"order to, uh, operate like that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1032.248,"endTime":1037.768,"body":"I don't even know if this is prevalent"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1032.248,"endTime":1037.768,"body":"anymore, but I, like in my career,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1037.768,"endTime":1042.148,"body":"even as recently as a couple years ago,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1037.768,"endTime":1042.148,"body":"I've encountered this where they, the,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1042.153,"endTime":1047.158,"body":"the, they just don't want developers"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1042.153,"endTime":1047.158,"body":"venturing outside of the, the, the,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1047.158,"endTime":1048.838,"body":"the role that they hired them in for."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1048.868,"endTime":1051.808,"body":"I encountered it all time in contracting"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1048.868,"endTime":1051.808,"body":"and I would push back on it with,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1052.198,"endTime":1055.828,"body":"basically, I would see it in the tech"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1052.198,"endTime":1055.828,"body":"side of the firm and I would push back"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1055.828,"endTime":1059.458,"body":"on it with the business side of the firm"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1055.828,"endTime":1059.458,"body":"to say, this is gonna limit you guys."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1059.458,"endTime":1060.778,"body":"You, you understand that, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1060.783,"endTime":1063.808,"body":"Like basically the product owner are"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1060.783,"endTime":1063.808,"body":"gonna have to bring in every sprint."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1063.808,"endTime":1066.328,"body":"The product owner's gonna have to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1063.808,"endTime":1066.328,"body":"bring in a balance of front end and"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1066.328,"endTime":1069.688,"body":"backend work and the product you're"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1066.328,"endTime":1069.688,"body":"basically putting on the product owner"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1069.928,"endTime":1073.178,"body":"to say, what's the most value you can"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1069.928,"endTime":1073.178,"body":"bring into the business and what's the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1073.183,"endTime":1075.638,"body":"most value that you can bring in the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1073.183,"endTime":1075.638,"body":"business that we can work on right now?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1075.643,"endTime":1078.128,"body":"Cause I don't have the skill"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1075.643,"endTime":1078.128,"body":"to work on everything at once."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1078.432,"endTime":1080.892,"body":"I don't know why this is still"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1078.432,"endTime":1080.892,"body":"so prevalent, cuz it does, it"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1080.892,"endTime":1082.722,"body":"just seems backwards to me."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1083.052,"endTime":1086.602,"body":"We all understand at some point"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1083.052,"endTime":1086.602,"body":"you're gonna call in, you're gonna"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1086.602,"endTime":1089.372,"body":"call in the calvary at some point"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1086.602,"endTime":1089.372,"body":"when you want to go, you have to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1089.372,"endTime":1091.702,"body":"and have a sleek product and design."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1091.882,"endTime":1095.372,"body":"You're gonna go and you're gonna"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1091.882,"endTime":1095.372,"body":"call in a a, an experienced front,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1095.377,"endTime":1097.972,"body":"front-end engineer, a ui ux person."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1098.022,"endTime":1104.172,"body":"Someone to streamline your user"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1098.022,"endTime":1104.172,"body":"experience through the whole app and,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1104.232,"endTime":1108.822,"body":"and, and, and give your app that, that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1104.232,"endTime":1108.822,"body":"sleek polish that you don't care about"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1108.822,"endTime":1110.112,"body":"when you're trying to rush things out."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1110.112,"endTime":1110.562,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1111.012,"endTime":1111.402,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1111.402,"endTime":1114.702,"body":"Those, those good ui ux"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1111.402,"endTime":1114.702,"body":"people are like gold dust."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1114.702,"endTime":1116.182,"body":"They absolutely, you can't find them."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1116.182,"endTime":1116.622,"body":"Not, not."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1116.622,"endTime":1118.462,"body":"I've been struggling to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1116.622,"endTime":1118.462,"body":"find good people like that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1118.482,"endTime":1121.482,"body":"Not like wwe, a pilot"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1118.482,"endTime":1121.482,"body":"resumes that say ui ux."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1122.097,"endTime":1124.017,"body":"And that's how they get"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1122.097,"endTime":1124.017,"body":"through the ATS screen."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1124.347,"endTime":1126.747,"body":"But when you talk to 'em,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1124.347,"endTime":1126.747,"body":"they're like, wow, use this tool."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1126.747,"endTime":1128.007,"body":"Say, all right, I don't know it."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1128.007,"endTime":1128.367,"body":"I'm out."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1128.367,"endTime":1133.197,"body":"I, I think, I think the, the best"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1128.367,"endTime":1133.197,"body":"U ui, I have a really great u UIUX"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1133.197,"endTime":1134.667,"body":"person who lives here in Tampa."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1134.667,"endTime":1137.642,"body":"I would like to try to get 'em on"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1134.667,"endTime":1137.642,"body":"the podcast to talk specifically"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1137.647,"endTime":1141.812,"body":"about uiux, but uh, again, like"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1137.647,"endTime":1141.812,"body":"it's, it's its own discipline."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1142.022,"endTime":1145.562,"body":"It's, it's u uiux even though I say"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1142.022,"endTime":1145.562,"body":"it, I'm being flippant when I say"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1145.562,"endTime":1149.012,"body":"it, but U I U X is different than"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1145.562,"endTime":1149.012,"body":"just a front end engineer, of course."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1149.017,"endTime":1149.412,"body":"Course."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1149.417,"endTime":1149.492,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1149.492,"endTime":1152.252,"body":"And that's kind of what we're going"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1149.492,"endTime":1152.252,"body":"with, with, with what we're like this"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1152.252,"endTime":1154.832,"body":"subject of like, wow, I'll just have a"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1152.252,"endTime":1154.832,"body":"team and I'll have a front end engineer"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1154.837,"endTime":1156.632,"body":"and I'll just tell 'em at a checkbox."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1156.662,"endTime":1157.352,"body":"At a dropdown."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1158.042,"endTime":1161.432,"body":"Well, that's different from"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1158.042,"endTime":1161.432,"body":"hiring a u UIUX person it's,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1161.462,"endTime":1162.752,"body":"it's actually the opposite."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1162.962,"endTime":1168.032,"body":"You're hiring the u i UX person to tell"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1162.962,"endTime":1168.032,"body":"you what you should do to have a great"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1168.092,"endTime":1171.572,"body":"user design and experience as opposed"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1168.092,"endTime":1171.572,"body":"to I'm hiring this front end engineer"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1171.577,"endTime":1174.122,"body":"so I can tell them what I want to do"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1174.152,"endTime":1177.087,"body":"the UI ux person will be able to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1174.152,"endTime":1177.087,"body":"tell you they've already spent"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1177.092,"endTime":1179.037,"body":"15 clicks to get to this point."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1179.037,"endTime":1180.897,"body":"Do you really want 'em"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1179.037,"endTime":1180.897,"body":"to do another three?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1181.107,"endTime":1181.197,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1181.197,"endTime":1183.867,"body":"So they, they focus on the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1181.197,"endTime":1183.867,"body":"journey, the customer's journey."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1183.867,"endTime":1184.287,"body":"Right, right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1184.557,"endTime":1185.817,"body":"And that's a different mindset."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1186.027,"endTime":1188.937,"body":"The front end developers really"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1186.027,"endTime":1188.937,"body":"don't have that necessarily."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1189.987,"endTime":1191.367,"body":"At least that's been my experience."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1191.757,"endTime":1194.487,"body":"To cap this category, he says,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1191.757,"endTime":1194.487,"body":"for repetitive tasks and for"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1194.487,"endTime":1198.507,"body":"work in which the rules are well"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1194.487,"endTime":1198.507,"body":"known, the baseball team is ideal."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1199.447,"endTime":1200.817,"body":"So, so yeah, here we go."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1200.817,"endTime":1201.507,"body":"Front end, back end."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1201.627,"endTime":1204.827,"body":"Like, I feel this is, every senior"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1201.627,"endTime":1204.827,"body":"developer, director, developer that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1204.827,"endTime":1208.487,"body":"tried to jam that square peg into"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1204.827,"endTime":1208.487,"body":"that round hole because they were"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1208.487,"endTime":1212.027,"body":"trying to like, oh, this is something"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1208.487,"endTime":1212.027,"body":"familiar, a front end backend developer,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1212.687,"endTime":1214.757,"body":"I can pay this and it's familiar"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1215.037,"endTime":1220.227,"body":"and it was this model on which modern mass"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1215.037,"endTime":1220.227,"body":"production, the work of making and moving"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1220.227,"endTime":1224.577,"body":"things was organized and to which it owes"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1220.227,"endTime":1224.577,"body":"a great deal of performance capacity."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1225.787,"endTime":1230.497,"body":"so the rules are known, very little"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1225.787,"endTime":1230.497,"body":"risk, and you're basically stamping"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1230.497,"endTime":1231.577,"body":"out widgets is where Exactly."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1231.577,"endTime":1231.697,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1231.697,"endTime":1231.817,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1231.817,"endTime":1234.577,"body":"There, there isn't, there is,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1231.817,"endTime":1234.577,"body":"there's very little to no risk,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1234.577,"endTime":1236.917,"body":"I guess maybe something breaks or"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1234.577,"endTime":1236.917,"body":"whatever, but there's very little to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1236.917,"endTime":1240.487,"body":"no risk because everyone's working"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1236.917,"endTime":1240.487,"body":"on their place on the assembly line."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1240.997,"endTime":1243.157,"body":"Everyone's doing the exact same"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1240.997,"endTime":1243.157,"body":"job over and over and over again."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1243.697,"endTime":1248.587,"body":"And, um, you know, there's almost no risk"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1243.697,"endTime":1248.587,"body":"in that except people around if you want"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1248.677,"endTime":1250.447,"body":"or somebody doesn't show up, that's fine."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1250.447,"endTime":1252.607,"body":"That's not a rare skill set,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1250.447,"endTime":1252.607,"body":"you know, it's really not."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1252.607,"endTime":1253.057,"body":"Call someone in."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1253.117,"endTime":1256.567,"body":"And, and, and honestly, if you, if you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1253.117,"endTime":1256.567,"body":"roll it back to our podcast on Taylorism,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1256.567,"endTime":1260.527,"body":"which I will link in the comments below."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1261.127,"endTime":1264.437,"body":"Below, yeah, if you roll it back"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1261.127,"endTime":1264.437,"body":"to our podcast on Taylorism."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1265.112,"endTime":1266.882,"body":"Like the era where this was happening."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1267.002,"endTime":1269.532,"body":"They're like mass, public"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1267.002,"endTime":1269.532,"body":"education was not even a thing."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1269.532,"endTime":1271.812,"body":"Like most of these factory"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1269.532,"endTime":1271.812,"body":"workers didn't even like, oh, I"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1271.812,"endTime":1274.362,"body":"remember early in our podcast, I,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1271.812,"endTime":1274.362,"body":"I think I left it in the editing."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1274.452,"endTime":1274.872,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1274.872,"endTime":1277.602,"body":"It's been a long time since I"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1274.872,"endTime":1277.602,"body":"watched our podcast on Taylorism."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1277.782,"endTime":1281.862,"body":"Like most of the workers didn't even,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1277.782,"endTime":1281.862,"body":"like, they had to, they had to, like,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1281.862,"endTime":1286.272,"body":"buying a permanent pair of shoes"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1281.862,"endTime":1286.272,"body":"was a big consideration because a"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1286.272,"endTime":1287.802,"body":"lot of them didn't even have shoes."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1288.372,"endTime":1288.792,"body":"For sure."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1288.792,"endTime":1290.742,"body":"I believe that you talking what, 1920s?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1291.112,"endTime":1291.737,"body":"before that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1291.917,"endTime":1292.847,"body":"Even before, yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1292.907,"endTime":1293.657,"body":"Yes, I believe that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1293.657,"endTime":1294.377,"body":"Yeah, it was before that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1294.647,"endTime":1294.797,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1294.827,"endTime":1299.242,"body":"That's the era where these, these ways"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1294.827,"endTime":1299.242,"body":"were invented, these ways to run teams"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1299.242,"endTime":1301.222,"body":"were invented and they're still around."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1301.222,"endTime":1304.372,"body":"Most people had to walk to work"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1301.222,"endTime":1304.372,"body":"and they had to decide whether they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1304.372,"endTime":1306.922,"body":"wanted to buy a really, really,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1304.372,"endTime":1306.922,"body":"really expensive pair of shoes."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1307.267,"endTime":1310.777,"body":"That would last 'em a couple years or a"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1307.267,"endTime":1310.777,"body":"cheap pair of shoes that would last them,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1311.077,"endTime":1315.277,"body":"you know, just, just a, a, you know, a"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1311.077,"endTime":1315.277,"body":"couple months or not have shoes at all."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1316.987,"endTime":1319.507,"body":"So the nature of work has"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1316.987,"endTime":1319.507,"body":"changed, that's what's changed."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1319.507,"endTime":1319.747,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1319.752,"endTime":1322.507,"body":"And the team structures are"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1319.752,"endTime":1322.507,"body":"still predominantly the same."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1322.507,"endTime":1322.957,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1323.107,"endTime":1324.547,"body":"That's, that's the problem we have."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1324.547,"endTime":1326.167,"body":"It wasn't knowledge work back in the day."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1326.647,"endTime":1329.347,"body":"Now it's all knowledge work,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1326.647,"endTime":1329.347,"body":"pretty much all knowledge work."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1329.347,"endTime":1331.507,"body":"So his second type of team, he says"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1331.747,"endTime":1334.027,"body":"the second type of team"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1331.747,"endTime":1334.027,"body":"is the soccer team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1334.267,"endTime":1337.627,"body":"It is also the team concept on which"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1334.267,"endTime":1337.627,"body":"the symphony orchestra is organized and"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1337.627,"endTime":1341.727,"body":"the model for the hospital team that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1337.627,"endTime":1341.727,"body":"rallies around the patient who goes into"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1341.727,"endTime":1343.467,"body":"cardiac arrest at two in the morning."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1344.037,"endTime":1344.997,"body":"Here we go into a quote,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1345.717,"endTime":1347.187,"body":"on this team two."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1347.607,"endTime":1349.137,"body":"All players have fixed positions."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1349.197,"endTime":1352.737,"body":"The tuba player in the orchestra will not"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1349.197,"endTime":1352.737,"body":"take over the parts of the double base."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1353.067,"endTime":1356.727,"body":"They stick to their tubas in the crisis"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1353.067,"endTime":1356.727,"body":"team at the hospital, the respiratory"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1356.727,"endTime":1360.987,"body":"technician will not make an incision in"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1356.727,"endTime":1360.987,"body":"the chest of the patient to massage the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1360.987,"endTime":1365.067,"body":"heart, but on these teams, the members"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1360.987,"endTime":1365.067,"body":"work as a team, each coordinates his"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1365.067,"endTime":1366.507,"body":"or her part with the rest of the team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1367.302,"endTime":1368.022,"body":"And then he says,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1368.172,"endTime":1371.442,"body":"this team requires a conductor"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1368.172,"endTime":1371.442,"body":"or coach, and the word of the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1371.442,"endTime":1372.852,"body":"conductor or coach is law."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1373.122,"endTime":1376.872,"body":"It also requires a score,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1373.122,"endTime":1376.872,"body":"quote, score, and it requires"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1376.872,"endTime":1378.552,"body":"endless rehearsals to work well."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1378.552,"endTime":1382.662,"body":"But unlike the baseball team, it"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1378.552,"endTime":1382.662,"body":"has great flexibility if the score"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1382.662,"endTime":1386.532,"body":"is clear and if the team is well"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1382.662,"endTime":1386.532,"body":"led, and it can move very fast."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1387.492,"endTime":1390.582,"body":"To think that he said that back in 1995."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1390.642,"endTime":1392.142,"body":"Yeah, four and even four."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1392.172,"endTime":1392.562,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1392.562,"endTime":1392.622,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1392.982,"endTime":1394.512,"body":"Uh, but even today, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1394.542,"endTime":1396.972,"body":"We don't have that model"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1394.542,"endTime":1396.972,"body":"in very many places."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1396.972,"endTime":1399.942,"body":"When you think about it, you have"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1396.972,"endTime":1399.942,"body":"care teams as they're called, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1399.947,"endTime":1401.232,"body":"So he mentioned healthcare."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1401.502,"endTime":1401.742,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1401.747,"endTime":1402.762,"body":"With That's true."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1402.762,"endTime":1405.792,"body":"You have healthcare teams, they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1402.762,"endTime":1405.792,"body":"work in a team environment."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1405.852,"endTime":1405.972,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1406.512,"endTime":1409.632,"body":"But you know, that's"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1406.512,"endTime":1409.632,"body":"pretty much it really."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1409.632,"endTime":1411.762,"body":"I mean, you think about"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1409.632,"endTime":1411.762,"body":"software development, you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1411.762,"endTime":1413.022,"body":"don't necessarily have that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1414.042,"endTime":1418.242,"body":"Some forward-looking, forward"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1414.042,"endTime":1418.242,"body":"thinking organizations do mob"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1418.242,"endTime":1419.382,"body":"programming, for instance."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1419.382,"endTime":1421.602,"body":"kind of an offshoot from peer programming."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1421.607,"endTime":1424.707,"body":"So, When it was two, we called"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1421.607,"endTime":1424.707,"body":"it pair, we added a third"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1424.707,"endTime":1426.057,"body":"one, it's not a pair anymore."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1426.207,"endTime":1430.137,"body":"Then we started having people look over"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1426.207,"endTime":1430.137,"body":"their shoulder, hence mob programming."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1430.167,"endTime":1433.607,"body":"And that is still pretty rare, overall."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1433.607,"endTime":1434.537,"body":"And why is that?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1434.897,"endTime":1435.227,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1435.227,"endTime":1439.877,"body":"It's because the bean counters"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1435.227,"endTime":1439.877,"body":"can't fathom how, how is it that six"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1439.877,"endTime":1441.767,"body":"people are working on this one thing?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1441.857,"endTime":1441.977,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1442.037,"endTime":1443.717,"body":"Shouldn't we have one"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1442.037,"endTime":1443.717,"body":"person working on it?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1443.997,"endTime":1447.957,"body":"And that's the reason why what they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1443.997,"endTime":1447.957,"body":"don't realize is there's better quality"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1447.957,"endTime":1451.257,"body":"built in, cuz six pairs of eyes are"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1447.957,"endTime":1451.257,"body":"contributing to the solution here."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1451.687,"endTime":1454.027,"body":"One person knocks it out"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1451.687,"endTime":1454.027,"body":"and then, oh, it's failed."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1454.032,"endTime":1455.017,"body":"It comes back again."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1455.017,"endTime":1455.197,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1455.317,"endTime":1458.377,"body":"that's interesting because where I"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1455.317,"endTime":1458.377,"body":"was going with this was I think that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1458.377,"endTime":1463.207,"body":"this is, I think this is the modern"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1458.377,"endTime":1463.207,"body":"software development feature team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1464.057,"endTime":1466.007,"body":"I think this is the majority"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1464.057,"endTime":1466.007,"body":"of what we deal with."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1466.107,"endTime":1469.977,"body":"The soccer team where everyone"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1466.107,"endTime":1469.977,"body":"looks the same on paper and"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1470.037,"endTime":1471.567,"body":"theoretically they should get along."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1471.776,"endTime":1474.176,"body":"If we take a soccer team into"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1471.776,"endTime":1474.176,"body":"consideration for a second,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1474.806,"endTime":1477.176,"body":"everybody knows there are players"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1474.806,"endTime":1477.176,"body":"on the team that are more skilled"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1477.296,"endTime":1478.616,"body":"than other people on the team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1478.616,"endTime":1480.176,"body":"That's true of a software"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1478.616,"endTime":1480.176,"body":"development team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1480.176,"endTime":1481.736,"body":"Also, you have your primadonnas, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1481.736,"endTime":1484.046,"body":"But, if he's gonna say the second"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1481.736,"endTime":1484.046,"body":"team is the soccer team, where"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1484.046,"endTime":1485.516,"body":"like they, they need a coach."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1485.786,"endTime":1487.826,"body":"They need someone keeping them"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1485.786,"endTime":1487.826,"body":"pointing in the right direction."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1488.096,"endTime":1491.806,"body":"They need there, there needs to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1488.096,"endTime":1491.806,"body":"be constant effort  on the part of"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1492.056,"endTime":1495.796,"body":"the coach to keep them pointed in"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1492.056,"endTime":1495.796,"body":"the right direction to keep them."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1495.801,"endTime":1496.516,"body":"Where, where is it?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1496.516,"endTime":1498.346,"body":"It requires a score, basically."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1498.936,"endTime":1500.556,"body":"I'm gonna break his"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1498.936,"endTime":1500.556,"body":"example here in a second."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1502.146,"endTime":1503.796,"body":"Actually, I'm gonna break"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1502.146,"endTime":1503.796,"body":"his example right now."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1503.956,"endTime":1504.856,"body":"You have two coaches."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1505.156,"endTime":1508.276,"body":"You have one coach who is the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1505.156,"endTime":1508.276,"body":"process coach, and you have one"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1508.276,"endTime":1509.986,"body":"coach who is the business coach."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1510.466,"endTime":1515.176,"body":"So basically you have a product owner"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1510.466,"endTime":1515.176,"body":"and you have a team coach, team,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1515.176,"endTime":1516.646,"body":"lead, process, person, whatever."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1516.826,"endTime":1519.976,"body":"The way the work gets done"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1516.826,"endTime":1519.976,"body":"and the work to be done."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1520.526,"endTime":1522.626,"body":"What you're working on and how you do it."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1522.746,"endTime":1522.986,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1523.086,"endTime":1526.176,"body":"And then where it breaks down"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1523.086,"endTime":1526.176,"body":"is where he says they're okay"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1526.176,"endTime":1527.196,"body":"as long as they have a coach."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1527.196,"endTime":1530.496,"body":"I think the, as long as they have a coach,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1527.196,"endTime":1530.496,"body":"part of it is where we're gonna break"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1530.496,"endTime":1534.756,"body":"this down and say, well, well, you know,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1530.496,"endTime":1534.756,"body":"most teams have really terrible leaders"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1534.756,"endTime":1536.286,"body":"who don't know what they're doing right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1536.286,"endTime":1539.076,"body":"And don't paint a clear direction"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1536.286,"endTime":1539.076,"body":"and don't get, you know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1539.076,"endTime":1543.216,"body":"And like, try, don't get anything,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1539.076,"endTime":1543.216,"body":"any, anything special from the team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1543.586,"endTime":1547.361,"body":"I, I don't know a lot about soccer, but"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1543.586,"endTime":1547.361,"body":"I would imagine, there are teams that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1547.361,"endTime":1552.041,"body":"are better than other teams and, and"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1547.361,"endTime":1552.041,"body":"generally players that work together"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1552.041,"endTime":1556.571,"body":"that are better than other players that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1552.041,"endTime":1556.571,"body":"work together and the domineering quote"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1556.901,"endTime":1561.131,"body":"coach that's trying to tell you all the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1556.901,"endTime":1561.131,"body":"things to do and trying to be involved in"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1561.131,"endTime":1562.961,"body":"every single play in every single like."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1564.461,"endTime":1564.911,"body":"Come on."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1565.211,"endTime":1567.131,"body":"Like, that's not gonna"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1565.211,"endTime":1567.131,"body":"work for a team like this."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1567.191,"endTime":1568.271,"body":"That's too prescriptive."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1568.271,"endTime":1570.281,"body":"That dictatorial approach almost."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1570.281,"endTime":1570.551,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1570.556,"endTime":1570.721,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1570.721,"endTime":1574.181,"body":"That, that, that requires the team"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1570.721,"endTime":1574.181,"body":"to simply park their brains at home."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1574.481,"endTime":1574.631,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1574.636,"endTime":1576.251,"body":"Show up and do as they're told."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1576.256,"endTime":1576.341,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1576.401,"endTime":1577.751,"body":"And that team's not gonna win."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1577.901,"endTime":1578.141,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1578.141,"endTime":1581.501,"body":"Well, well, like, here we go here the big"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1578.141,"endTime":1581.501,"body":"picture, like here we go, here, here comes"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1581.501,"endTime":1585.311,"body":"a clip about, here comes a clip of what"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1581.501,"endTime":1585.311,"body":"I, what I wanted to say in this podcast."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1585.311,"endTime":1589.631,"body":"So, because the management"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1585.311,"endTime":1589.631,"body":"style of the organization is"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1590.111,"endTime":1592.181,"body":"the first type of team, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1592.871,"endTime":1596.291,"body":"And the team style is"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1592.871,"endTime":1596.291,"body":"the second type of team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1596.441,"endTime":1598.571,"body":"And now we're in one organization"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1596.441,"endTime":1598.571,"body":"trying to gain success."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1598.661,"endTime":1601.841,"body":"You're, you're not even like, you're,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1598.661,"endTime":1601.841,"body":"you're on different planets at that point."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1602.951,"endTime":1603.671,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1603.671,"endTime":1606.071,"body":"The two are ch cheese and,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1603.671,"endTime":1606.071,"body":"and you're trying to mix them."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1606.641,"endTime":1608.371,"body":"And that's a recipe for disaster."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1608.81,"endTime":1610.85,"body":"The team requires a conductor or a coach."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1611.15,"endTime":1613.37,"body":"The word of the conductor or coach is law."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1613.91,"endTime":1614.96,"body":"It requires a score."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1615.65,"endTime":1620.48,"body":"And en endless rehearsals, like in,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1615.65,"endTime":1620.48,"body":"in our line of work, I, I see this"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1620.48,"endTime":1624.64,"body":"as like, a cycle of retrospectives"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1620.48,"endTime":1624.64,"body":"that are just on a schedule and a,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1624.64,"endTime":1625.56,"body":"and a and, you know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1625.565,"endTime":1629.19,"body":"And, and constant introspection of what"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1625.565,"endTime":1629.19,"body":"we be doing better and stuff like that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1629.19,"endTime":1631.19,"body":"This is classic, inspect and adapt, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1631.22,"endTime":1632.06,"body":"This is is where it is."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1632.06,"endTime":1634.88,"body":"You do something, you look back"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1632.06,"endTime":1634.88,"body":"and see how you, did you improve,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1634.88,"endTime":1636.53,"body":"use some more rinse and repeat."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1636.65,"endTime":1637.55,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1638.85,"endTime":1642.215,"body":"I kind of wanna move on to the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1638.85,"endTime":1642.215,"body":"next point, but I, I kind of wanna"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1642.215,"endTime":1645.545,"body":"stop here and talk about, um,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1642.215,"endTime":1645.545,"body":"like why management is so outta."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1646.325,"endTime":1650.225,"body":"And what, and maybe what we can do to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1646.325,"endTime":1650.225,"body":"get management back in sync because like"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1650.375,"endTime":1654.215,"body":"the team structure and team organization"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1650.375,"endTime":1654.215,"body":"and, and really org design, that's"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1654.215,"endTime":1655.235,"body":"kind of where we're going with this."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1655.565,"endTime":1656.885,"body":"We're gonna do a big podcast on that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1656.995,"endTime":1660.725,"body":"At one point, your management has to"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1656.995,"endTime":1660.725,"body":"be aligned with good organizational"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1660.725,"endTime":1662.675,"body":"design to support good software."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1663.395,"endTime":1666.785,"body":"Cuz if, if you have bad organizational"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1663.395,"endTime":1666.785,"body":"design, you're gonna get bad software."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1666.79,"endTime":1668.925,"body":"Like that's, that's Conway's"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1666.79,"endTime":1668.925,"body":"law basically in a box, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1668.93,"endTime":1669.375,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1669.925,"endTime":1673.495,"body":"I concur, but you know, to your point"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1669.925,"endTime":1673.495,"body":"about how, why management is not on"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1673.495,"endTime":1677.845,"body":"board with this, think about who they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1673.495,"endTime":1677.845,"body":"are and how they got to where they are."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1678.505,"endTime":1681.055,"body":"They didn't get to where they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1678.505,"endTime":1681.055,"body":"are by doing it that way."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1681.055,"endTime":1684.595,"body":"They got to where they are by being"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1681.055,"endTime":1684.595,"body":"directive, telling people what"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1684.595,"endTime":1686.305,"body":"to do, when to get it done by."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1686.525,"endTime":1689.315,"body":"And that's, that's the reason"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1686.525,"endTime":1689.315,"body":"why they can't think this way."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1689.375,"endTime":1689.825,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1689.825,"endTime":1690.545,"body":"For the most part."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1690.575,"endTime":1691.085,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1691.265,"endTime":1691.595,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1691.955,"endTime":1694.415,"body":"Like if I'm looking for places"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1691.955,"endTime":1694.415,"body":"to push back, like that'll be"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1694.415,"endTime":1696.995,"body":"the first place I push back is,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1694.415,"endTime":1696.995,"body":"did they get there like that?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1696.995,"endTime":1701.525,"body":"Like I, I, I think of , all the directive"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1696.995,"endTime":1701.525,"body":"managers I've ever worked for, they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1701.525,"endTime":1706.475,"body":"had a whole staff of good natured"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1701.525,"endTime":1706.475,"body":"people that kind of took their, took"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1706.475,"endTime":1711.875,"body":"their beating and, and, and took it"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1706.475,"endTime":1711.875,"body":"in stride and had a positive attitude."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1711.875,"endTime":1714.335,"body":"And up until the day where they just"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1711.875,"endTime":1714.335,"body":"couldn't take it anymore, and then"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1714.335,"endTime":1717.695,"body":"they quit, or they were fired, went"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1714.335,"endTime":1717.695,"body":"somewhere else and, and, and, and those,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1717.785,"endTime":1721.955,"body":"those, those managers taken credit"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1717.785,"endTime":1721.955,"body":"for their work, uh, all along the way."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1722.005,"endTime":1724.465,"body":"People like you just described,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1722.005,"endTime":1724.465,"body":"that that's what I've seen"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1724.47,"endTime":1725.395,"body":"them make their careers on."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1725.395,"endTime":1727.945,"body":"They make their careers on the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1725.395,"endTime":1727.945,"body":"back of people that, uh, they do."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1728.275,"endTime":1728.845,"body":"They do, yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1728.845,"endTime":1730.205,"body":"But they, but they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1728.845,"endTime":1730.205,"body":"didn't make their career."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1731.05,"endTime":1732.19,"body":"Nurturing teams."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1732.46,"endTime":1733.031,"body":"Oh, no, no, no."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1733.036,"endTime":1733.3,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1733.75,"endTime":1736.15,"body":"Creating a good organizational design."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1736.15,"endTime":1737.68,"body":"That's not how they made their careers."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1737.98,"endTime":1741.22,"body":"They got, frankly, they made their"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1737.98,"endTime":1741.22,"body":"careers by stepping over people."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1741.27,"endTime":1741.97,"body":"Right, right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1741.97,"endTime":1744.49,"body":"And, and those people that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1741.97,"endTime":1744.49,"body":"they step over are basically, I"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1744.49,"endTime":1745.57,"body":"don't know, collateral damage."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1745.75,"endTime":1745.84,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1745.84,"endTime":1746.59,"body":"It is what it is."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1746.65,"endTime":1750.59,"body":"They get tired and leave, or they're"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1746.65,"endTime":1750.59,"body":"fired or rif'd off, whatever."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1750.595,"endTime":1750.79,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1751.0,"endTime":1752.62,"body":"That's how they got to where they are."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1753.46,"endTime":1757.45,"body":"So we can't expect those people to come"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1753.46,"endTime":1757.45,"body":"up with decent organizational design."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1757.455,"endTime":1758.44,"body":"It's not in their dna."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1758.86,"endTime":1761.435,"body":"Well, I mean, at the point where"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1758.86,"endTime":1761.435,"body":"you're going there, at the point"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1761.44,"endTime":1762.765,"body":"where you're super low on empathy."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1763.265,"endTime":1765.995,"body":"Like, you're, you're not looking out"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1763.265,"endTime":1765.995,"body":"for what's best for people, and you're"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1765.995,"endTime":1769.235,"body":"not trying to like, put people over"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1765.995,"endTime":1769.235,"body":"the top and you're trying not, you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1769.24,"endTime":1772.625,"body":"know, you're trying to claim credit for"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1769.24,"endTime":1772.625,"body":"what other people did, and you're not"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1772.625,"endTime":1773.945,"body":"really trying to promote other people."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1773.945,"endTime":1777.045,"body":"And that, like, I don't know"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1773.945,"endTime":1777.045,"body":"if you're in that situation we"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1777.05,"endTime":1778.365,"body":"have other podcasts for this."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1778.37,"endTime":1781.01,"body":"Let me move on to the last,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1778.37,"endTime":1781.01,"body":", point though, or his last"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1781.01,"endTime":1782.21,"body":"team, while, while I'm here,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1782.68,"endTime":1783.31,"body":"Finally."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1783.46,"endTime":1785.44,"body":"There's the doubles tennis team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1785.69,"endTime":1790.31,"body":"The team also of the jazz combo or"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1785.69,"endTime":1790.31,"body":"of the four or five senior executives"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1790.43,"endTime":1795.29,"body":"who together constitute the quote"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1790.43,"endTime":1795.29,"body":"president's office and in the large"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1795.295,"endTime":1797.5,"body":"American company or the vorstandt."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1797.9,"endTime":1799.07,"body":"Sorry, he board management."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1799.07,"endTime":1800.01,"body":"Vorstandt."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1800.12,"endTime":1800.48,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1800.96,"endTime":1801.71,"body":"See, sorry."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1802.01,"endTime":1805.07,"body":"Gotta had to be German there for,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1802.01,"endTime":1805.07,"body":"for our listeners in Germany."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1805.46,"endTime":1806.09,"body":"You can hear me?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1806.09,"endTime":1807.983,"body":"Screw up Vorstandt."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1808.048,"endTime":1811.918,"body":"this team has to be small, seven"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1808.048,"endTime":1811.918,"body":"to nine people may be the maximum."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1812.128,"endTime":1817.468,"body":"The players have a quote preferred"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1812.128,"endTime":1817.468,"body":"rather than a quote fixed position."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1817.498,"endTime":1819.838,"body":"They quote, I don't know why"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1817.498,"endTime":1819.838,"body":"there's so many quotes in here."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1819.878,"endTime":1820.198,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1820.828,"endTime":1823.498,"body":"The, the, like, the, the passage"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1820.828,"endTime":1823.498,"body":"stands alone by itself, without quotes"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1823.498,"endTime":1825.008,"body":"anyway, the team has to be small."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1825.038,"endTime":1826.988,"body":"Seven to nine people may be the maximum."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1827.288,"endTime":1830.238,"body":"The players have a preferred"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1827.288,"endTime":1830.238,"body":"rather than a fixed position."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1830.238,"endTime":1834.458,"body":"They cover for one another, and they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1830.238,"endTime":1834.458,"body":"adjust themselves to the strength"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1834.518,"endTime":1836.078,"body":"and weaknesses of each other."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1836.228,"endTime":1839.528,"body":"The player in the back of the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1836.228,"endTime":1839.528,"body":"court in doubles tennis adjusts"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1839.533,"endTime":1842.768,"body":"to the strength and the weaknesses"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1839.533,"endTime":1842.768,"body":"of the partner who plays the net."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1842.803,"endTime":1847.043,"body":"And the team only functions when"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1842.803,"endTime":1847.043,"body":"this adjustment to the strengths"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1847.043,"endTime":1850.913,"body":"and weaknesses of the partners has"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1847.043,"endTime":1850.913,"body":"become condition a conditioned reflex."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1851.033,"endTime":1855.473,"body":"That is when the player in the back"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1851.033,"endTime":1855.473,"body":"of the court starts running to cover"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1855.623,"endTime":1857.573,"body":"for the weak backhand of the partner."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1857.573,"endTime":1861.503,"body":"At the net, the moment the ball leaves the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1857.573,"endTime":1861.503,"body":"racket of the player on the other side."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1862.643,"endTime":1866.363,"body":"A well calibrated team of this"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1862.643,"endTime":1866.363,"body":"kind is the strongest team of all."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1866.843,"endTime":1869.783,"body":"Its total performance is greater"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1866.843,"endTime":1869.783,"body":"than the sum of the individual"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1869.783,"endTime":1871.253,"body":"performances of its members."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1871.523,"endTime":1874.043,"body":"For this team uses the strength"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1871.523,"endTime":1874.043,"body":"of each member while minimizing"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1874.043,"endTime":1875.213,"body":"the weaknesses of each."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1875.573,"endTime":1878.093,"body":"But this team requires"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1875.573,"endTime":1878.093,"body":"enormous self-discipline."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1878.213,"endTime":1881.303,"body":"The members have to work together"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1878.213,"endTime":1881.303,"body":"for a long time before they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1881.303,"endTime":1883.643,"body":"actually function as a quote team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1884.123,"endTime":1887.663,"body":"And, and here we come to the main"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1884.123,"endTime":1887.663,"body":"lane of, I feel like what, what"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1887.663,"endTime":1889.433,"body":"every organization wants to have."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1889.823,"endTime":1894.613,"body":"But, fails to properly envision,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1889.823,"endTime":1894.613,"body":"understand, engage the team coaches"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1894.613,"endTime":1897.193,"body":"to get to like, they, they don't"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1894.613,"endTime":1897.193,"body":"understand that this is the goal."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1897.43,"endTime":1899.23,"body":"they don't understand"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1897.43,"endTime":1899.23,"body":"how to get to this goal."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1899.47,"endTime":1902.05,"body":"But I think every organization"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1899.47,"endTime":1902.05,"body":"understands that this is the goal."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1902.98,"endTime":1903.13,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1903.13,"endTime":1904.0,"body":"You pretty much nailed it."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1904.03,"endTime":1908.14,"body":"I mean, a lot of times people hear about"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1904.03,"endTime":1908.14,"body":"the terms self-organizing teams, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1908.14,"endTime":1909.43,"body":"Self-managing teams."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1909.435,"endTime":1909.651,"body":"Teams, yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1909.97,"endTime":1912.55,"body":"And those people that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1909.97,"endTime":1912.55,"body":"understand those terms."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1913.735,"endTime":1915.955,"body":"They'll be like, okay, tell"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1913.735,"endTime":1915.955,"body":"us how we can get there."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1915.985,"endTime":1917.245,"body":"Cuz they may not have the answers."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1917.295,"endTime":1921.345,"body":"But those that don't understand it,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1917.295,"endTime":1921.345,"body":"they misinterpret it and say, no,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1921.345,"endTime":1924.285,"body":"no, we need to control these teams,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1921.345,"endTime":1924.285,"body":"otherwise it's gonna be chaos."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1924.285,"endTime":1926.175,"body":"What self-managing, they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1924.285,"endTime":1926.175,"body":"don't know what they're doing."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1926.175,"endTime":1927.015,"body":"We need to tell 'em."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1927.315,"endTime":1930.405,"body":"And so they go back in that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1927.315,"endTime":1930.405,"body":"command and control mode."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1930.41,"endTime":1930.435,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1930.675,"endTime":1934.035,"body":"I'm glad you, I'm glad you jumped first"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1930.675,"endTime":1934.035,"body":"to the word control because it's, it's"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1934.04,"endTime":1936.225,"body":"the word that most fits in this position."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1936.235,"endTime":1940.135,"body":"I was in an organization"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1936.235,"endTime":1940.135,"body":"once in a scale capacity, big"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1940.135,"endTime":1942.565,"body":"team, six, seven teams, right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1943.015,"endTime":1945.63,"body":"And,  I recall hearing over and"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1943.015,"endTime":1945.63,"body":"over again, how do we know that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1945.97,"endTime":1949.23,"body":"everyone's, you know, pu punching"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1945.97,"endTime":1949.23,"body":"out, cogs on the assembly line."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1949.23,"endTime":1950.94,"body":"How we know that everyone's working."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1950.94,"endTime":1954.3,"body":"You know, how do we know that people"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1950.94,"endTime":1954.3,"body":"aren't taking advantage of us and working."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1954.675,"endTime":1957.435,"body":"Whatever, 39 hours instead"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1954.675,"endTime":1957.435,"body":"of 40 hours or whatever."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1957.435,"endTime":1960.675,"body":"I'm like, is that, is that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1957.435,"endTime":1960.675,"body":"really the concern here?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1960.825,"endTime":1962.205,"body":"Is that really what you're worried about?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1962.235,"endTime":1964.215,"body":"It goes back to that utilization, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1964.335,"endTime":1965.325,"body":"You covet that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1965.865,"endTime":1966.855,"body":"Keep people busy."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1966.885,"endTime":1967.905,"body":"Well, that's Instead if they're busy."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1967.905,"endTime":1968.745,"body":"I know they're working."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1968.985,"endTime":1970.575,"body":"Forget what they're producing though."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1970.725,"endTime":1974.74,"body":"Well, each of these team models I"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1970.725,"endTime":1974.74,"body":"read today, management is structured"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1974.745,"endTime":1978.07,"body":"to support one of these team models."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1978.31,"endTime":1980.8,"body":"I, I don't think management"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1978.31,"endTime":1980.8,"body":"can be, maybe I'm wrong here."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1980.8,"endTime":1981.76,"body":"I'm willing to be challenged here."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1982.45,"endTime":1986.83,"body":"Maybe management can be structured"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1982.45,"endTime":1986.83,"body":"to support multiple of these."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1988.27,"endTime":1990.98,"body":"So I'll lean in a little bit on"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1988.27,"endTime":1990.98,"body":"that one, I don't think you'll get"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1990.985,"endTime":1995.66,"body":"to a situation which is, you know,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1990.985,"endTime":1995.66,"body":"wherever you are, you can suddenly"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1995.66,"endTime":1998.09,"body":"go from there and transition to this."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1999.335,"endTime":2001.825,"body":"Ideal world of having"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":1999.335,"endTime":2001.825,"body":"self-organizing teams."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2002.125,"endTime":2004.195,"body":"There is a journey"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2002.125,"endTime":2004.195,"body":"between those two states."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2004.225,"endTime":2008.905,"body":"And you potentially could have"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2004.225,"endTime":2008.905,"body":"teams that flex in that way."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2008.965,"endTime":2009.355,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2009.685,"endTime":2015.265,"body":"So in those scenarios, you would"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2009.685,"endTime":2015.265,"body":"have management possibly embracing"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2015.265,"endTime":2017.635,"body":"multiple models for a period of time."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2018.325,"endTime":2021.415,"body":"They have to have the appetite, they"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2018.325,"endTime":2021.415,"body":"have to have the trust in the teams."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2021.475,"endTime":2021.565,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2021.805,"endTime":2026.095,"body":"And lastly, I think you mentioned this,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2021.805,"endTime":2026.095,"body":"they need to engage the council of"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2026.495,"endTime":2027.865,"body":"somebody who can help them with it, right?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2027.865,"endTime":2027.925,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2027.93,"endTime":2029.395,"body":"In the capacity of a coach."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2029.665,"endTime":2029.875,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2030.295,"endTime":2031.075,"body":"Get help."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2031.765,"endTime":2032.155,"body":"Get help."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2032.16,"endTime":2032.425,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2033.266,"endTime":2036.656,"body":"get Help is a great, I was gonna"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2033.266,"endTime":2036.656,"body":"say it's a great movie title."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2038.696,"endTime":2039.836,"body":"Get, like, get help."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2039.996,"endTime":2042.126,"body":"Get help is, it's a great message."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2042.186,"endTime":2044.076,"body":"Like it's a great message to end with."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2044.076,"endTime":2048.156,"body":"Get help because, this would"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2044.076,"endTime":2048.156,"body":"probably be a good post for LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2048.316,"endTime":2051.256,"body":"Not, not in the normal LinkedIn post"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2048.316,"endTime":2051.256,"body":"of people trying to get attention on"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2051.261,"endTime":2054.316,"body":"the internet, right, by throwing out"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2051.261,"endTime":2054.316,"body":"their hot takes over the internet."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2054.316,"endTime":2060.216,"body":"But, this probably would be a good post"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2054.316,"endTime":2060.216,"body":"for LinkedIn , in in this book in again."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2060.666,"endTime":2061.176,"body":"Here we go."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2061.266,"endTime":2063.186,"body":"One more time before"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2061.266,"endTime":2063.186,"body":"we are done for today."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2063.456,"endTime":2065.346,"body":"Peter Drucker, post Capitalist Society."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2066.156,"endTime":2067.536,"body":"Again, don't be scared about the title."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2067.536,"endTime":2069.316,"body":"He's not talking about, the revolution."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2069.621,"endTime":2072.256,"body":"I mean, unless you're down for a"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2069.621,"endTime":2072.256,"body":"revolution and then sign me up,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2072.506,"endTime":2074.696,"body":"I'm gonna speak singularly cuz I"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2072.506,"endTime":2074.696,"body":"don't know if you back me on this"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2074.696,"endTime":2077.726,"body":"one, but what I'm saying here is that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2074.696,"endTime":2077.726,"body":"there, there are management styles"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2077.726,"endTime":2080.066,"body":"that support these types of teams."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2080.816,"endTime":2087.231,"body":"And, if you are managing to the first"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2080.816,"endTime":2087.231,"body":"type of team we talked about, but you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2087.231,"endTime":2091.886,"body":"want the third type of team, working in"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2087.231,"endTime":2091.886,"body":"your organization, pushing you forward,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2092.126,"endTime":2093.776,"body":"you're never gonna get that right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2093.916,"endTime":2098.261,"body":"You, you need to adjust, , and, and"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2093.916,"endTime":2098.261,"body":"you as the leader in the organization,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2098.291,"endTime":2100.631,"body":"I'm here, I go, I just switched"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2098.291,"endTime":2100.631,"body":"from management to leadership."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2101.051,"endTime":2104.477,"body":"You, you as the leader in the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2101.051,"endTime":2104.477,"body":"organization, you need to make the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2104.477,"endTime":2108.322,"body":"first move because your teams are"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2104.477,"endTime":2108.322,"body":"not gonna evolve, with your dated"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2108.342,"endTime":2111.682,"body":"management style, going back to the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2108.342,"endTime":2111.682,"body":"first, like you, you're, everyone"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2111.687,"endTime":2113.082,"body":"needs to be in their own positions."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2113.262,"endTime":2117.162,"body":"I can't have a frontend developer go"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2113.262,"endTime":2117.162,"body":"learning backend stuff or go figuring"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2117.167,"endTime":2120.732,"body":"out how to, you know, figuring"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2117.167,"endTime":2120.732,"body":"out how to, how, how to optimize,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2120.882,"endTime":2122.412,"body":"uh, database store procedures."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2122.612,"endTime":2124.992,"body":"My, my, my front end developer,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2122.612,"endTime":2124.992,"body":"why are you doing that?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2124.992,"endTime":2125.922,"body":"Why are you working on that?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2126.102,"endTime":2126.792,"body":"Don't do that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2126.792,"endTime":2127.482,"body":"Talk to the dba."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2127.482,"endTime":2129.912,"body":"Yeah, you should let the DBA do that."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2129.912,"endTime":2131.382,"body":"He's better at it than you."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2131.652,"endTime":2133.272,"body":"You'll never be good at anything."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2133.362,"endTime":2133.962,"body":"Like what?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2133.962,"endTime":2135.642,"body":"Like what a terrible message."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2135.822,"endTime":2139.512,"body":"If you're having problems with this at"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2135.822,"endTime":2139.512,"body":"a team level, you should bring it up"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2139.572,"endTime":2143.412,"body":"with, like whoever the leader of your"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2139.572,"endTime":2143.412,"body":"business unit is, who, whoever that"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2143.412,"endTime":2146.232,"body":"is, who whoever can make a difference?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2146.312,"endTime":2148.202,"body":"You should definitely"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2146.312,"endTime":2148.202,"body":"start with yourself though."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2148.202,"endTime":2151.562,"body":"Look in the mirror and say,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2148.202,"endTime":2151.562,"body":"you know, am I enabling this"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2151.567,"endTime":2153.182,"body":"organization to be self Sure."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2153.212,"endTime":2153.602,"body":"Certainly should."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2153.607,"endTime":2154.382,"body":"Managing right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2154.382,"endTime":2157.892,"body":"And if, if I'm doing that, what"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2154.382,"endTime":2157.892,"body":"are the obstacles my peers on,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2157.897,"endTime":2159.212,"body":"on, you know, on the board."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2159.242,"endTime":2159.632,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2159.632,"endTime":2160.262,"body":"Talk to them."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2160.382,"endTime":2160.562,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2160.742,"endTime":2161.102,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2161.102,"endTime":2163.772,"body":"Give people the teams"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2161.102,"endTime":2163.772,"body":"enough rope to work with."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2164.192,"endTime":2167.612,"body":"Trust them to get the job done"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2164.192,"endTime":2167.612,"body":"and leave 'em alone for a bit."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2167.612,"endTime":2169.412,"body":"And you'll be amazed"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2167.612,"endTime":2169.412,"body":"what they come up with."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2169.572,"endTime":2172.627,"body":"I feel in the, in the first example, the"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2169.572,"endTime":2172.627,"body":"baseball team where everyone plays their"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2172.627,"endTime":2176.487,"body":"individual positions and everyone gets"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2172.627,"endTime":2176.487,"body":"scored on their individual positions."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2176.527,"endTime":2179.107,"body":"I don't feel trust is"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2176.527,"endTime":2179.107,"body":"strong in that model."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2179.467,"endTime":2180.067,"body":"It isn't."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2180.127,"endTime":2180.517,"body":"It isn't."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2180.517,"endTime":2183.847,"body":"Cuz you're trying to do the best"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2180.517,"endTime":2183.847,"body":"for yourself, not for your team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2183.937,"endTime":2184.177,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2184.507,"endTime":2185.107,"body":"That's why."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2186.127,"endTime":2186.337,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2186.397,"endTime":2186.847,"body":"Uncool."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2186.997,"endTime":2188.437,"body":"I think that's thoroughly uncool."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2188.797,"endTime":2189.487,"body":"Absolutely agree."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2189.487,"endTime":2192.457,"body":"Because then what, what do you,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2189.487,"endTime":2192.457,"body":"how many people on a baseball team?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2192.907,"endTime":2194.697,"body":"Uh, 38,000!"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2194.717,"endTime":2195.087,"body":"I know."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2195.427,"endTime":2196.927,"body":"Let's say, I don't know, let's say 20."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2196.927,"endTime":2201.517,"body":"I don't really know, but do you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2196.927,"endTime":2201.517,"body":"really want a single baseball team"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2201.577,"endTime":2206.947,"body":"with 11 people on it, or do you"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2201.577,"endTime":2206.947,"body":"want 11 teams of one person each?"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2207.217,"endTime":2209.651,"body":"That's the decision you have to make,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2207.217,"endTime":2209.651,"body":"because if everybody's in it for"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2209.651,"endTime":2211.151,"body":"themselves, then you don't have a team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2211.271,"endTime":2211.361,"body":"Nope."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2211.601,"endTime":2213.371,"body":"You have individual teams."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2213.376,"endTime":2213.916,"body":"I'm wrapping up."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2213.966,"endTime":2216.786,"body":"What I learned today is, uh, 26"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2213.966,"endTime":2216.786,"body":"people are on a baseball team."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2216.786,"endTime":2217.656,"body":"That's what I learned today."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2217.966,"endTime":2219.646,"body":"I'll tell you what I learned is Mr."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2219.646,"endTime":2222.496,"body":"Drucker was very talented,"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2219.646,"endTime":2222.496,"body":"uh, way ahead of this time."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2222.496,"endTime":2222.946,"body":"I can't believe it."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2222.946,"endTime":2223.186,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2223.306,"endTime":2225.886,"body":"so if you haven't read his"},{"speaker":"let me dig into the first example","startTime":2223.306,"endTime":2225.886,"body":"stuff, definitely you should."}]}