{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.05,"endTime":3.08,"body":"We've done a podcast on, product"},{"startTime":0.05,"endTime":3.08,"body":"owner to product manager."},{"startTime":3.23,"endTime":7.04,"body":"We've done a podcast on the different"},{"startTime":3.23,"endTime":7.04,"body":"ways you break into product management,"},{"startTime":7.46,"endTime":11.08,"body":"including having no experience at"},{"startTime":7.46,"endTime":11.08,"body":"all, but , one of the pathways,"},{"startTime":11.085,"endTime":14.6,"body":"which , in my experience, it's one"},{"startTime":11.085,"endTime":14.6,"body":"of the minor pathways in that I've"},{"startTime":14.6,"endTime":16.04,"body":"seen rather than unusual, yeah."},{"startTime":16.04,"endTime":20.66,"body":"I haven't encountered too many people,"},{"startTime":16.04,"endTime":20.66,"body":"is project managers turned product"},{"startTime":20.66,"endTime":22.34,"body":"managers or product owners, I guess"},{"startTime":22.68,"endTime":26.145,"body":"If this was your career path into product"},{"startTime":22.68,"endTime":26.145,"body":"management comment and let us know."},{"startTime":26.485,"endTime":28.675,"body":"And we're very interested in talking"},{"startTime":26.485,"endTime":28.675,"body":"to you double, double points if"},{"startTime":28.675,"endTime":30.505,"body":"you live in the Tampa area, right?"},{"startTime":30.505,"endTime":32.875,"body":"Cuz you're invited to the podcast."},{"startTime":32.875,"endTime":33.325,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":33.835,"endTime":34.285,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":34.285,"endTime":38.005,"body":"Here we are arguing Agile again Brian"},{"startTime":34.285,"endTime":38.005,"body":"Orlando, product manager Om Patel."},{"startTime":38.065,"endTime":39.115,"body":"Enterprise Agility coach."},{"startTime":39.165,"endTime":41.115,"body":"I say a different title"},{"startTime":39.165,"endTime":41.115,"body":"for you every single time."},{"startTime":41.145,"endTime":41.595,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":41.775,"endTime":44.615,"body":"All right Om Patel emperor of the Moon."},{"startTime":44.885,"endTime":46.145,"body":"Enterprise Sous Chef."},{"startTime":46.145,"endTime":46.505,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":46.505,"endTime":47.585,"body":"Enterprise Sous Chef."},{"startTime":48.085,"endTime":49.595,"body":"Enterprise Saucier."},{"startTime":51.865,"endTime":56.122,"body":"Hey, as long as it's French, it sounds"},{"startTime":51.865,"endTime":56.122,"body":"good let's talk through a project"},{"startTime":56.122,"endTime":59.072,"body":"manager moving into product management."},{"startTime":59.552,"endTime":64.052,"body":"So, I h Have some concerns on"},{"startTime":59.552,"endTime":64.052,"body":"this episode right off the bat."},{"startTime":64.112,"endTime":65.132,"body":"You have some concerns."},{"startTime":65.282,"endTime":66.332,"body":"I certainly do."},{"startTime":66.932,"endTime":70.945,"body":"I would be concerned with any candidate"},{"startTime":66.932,"endTime":70.945,"body":"who is a project manager because"},{"startTime":70.945,"endTime":73.945,"body":"I, , maybe you can talk me out of this,"},{"startTime":70.945,"endTime":73.945,"body":"but I see it as a different mindset."},{"startTime":74.215,"endTime":74.845,"body":"That's better."},{"startTime":74.845,"endTime":75.085,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":75.085,"endTime":76.405,"body":"It is a different mindset."},{"startTime":76.435,"endTime":80.905,"body":"I, I can speak because I have served"},{"startTime":76.435,"endTime":80.905,"body":"time as a project manager in the past."},{"startTime":80.935,"endTime":85.325,"body":"Mm-hmm it is a different mindset"},{"startTime":80.935,"endTime":85.325,"body":"to come to product from a project"},{"startTime":85.355,"endTime":91.105,"body":"management background because, Project"},{"startTime":85.355,"endTime":91.105,"body":"managers primarily are concerned"},{"startTime":91.105,"endTime":92.785,"body":"with getting things done on time."},{"startTime":93.535,"endTime":94.025,"body":"Come what may!"},{"startTime":94.045,"endTime":97.595,"body":"That that's their, that's"},{"startTime":94.045,"endTime":97.595,"body":"their mandate usually whereas"},{"startTime":97.615,"endTime":98.705,"body":"get, get all the things done."},{"startTime":98.705,"endTime":99.695,"body":"Get 'em all done on time."},{"startTime":99.725,"endTime":101.255,"body":"Get 'em done on time, get everything done."},{"startTime":101.255,"endTime":102.065,"body":"And it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":102.065,"endTime":103.295,"body":"Under budget, under budget and on time."},{"startTime":103.325,"endTime":104.045,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"startTime":104.195,"endTime":105.155,"body":"Under budget on time."},{"startTime":105.155,"endTime":106.475,"body":"I know how to talk to get your bonus."},{"startTime":106.475,"endTime":108.005,"body":"I know how to talk to project managers."},{"startTime":108.005,"endTime":109.595,"body":"It's on time and it's under budget."},{"startTime":109.6,"endTime":110.255,"body":"Go away."},{"startTime":110.755,"endTime":111.355,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":111.355,"endTime":114.825,"body":"And when it's not, you have a bunch"},{"startTime":111.355,"endTime":114.825,"body":"of risks and mitigations to kind of"},{"startTime":114.975,"endTime":120.135,"body":"excuse yourself out of that the mindset"},{"startTime":114.975,"endTime":120.135,"body":"for product really centers around the"},{"startTime":120.135,"endTime":123.345,"body":"customer, which is not even in the"},{"startTime":120.135,"endTime":123.345,"body":"picture for project managers usually."},{"startTime":123.715,"endTime":126.925,"body":"I, I don't know of many project"},{"startTime":123.715,"endTime":126.925,"body":"managers that even speak to"},{"startTime":127.065,"endTime":128.625,"body":"actual customers, the end users."},{"startTime":128.625,"endTime":129.835,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah they don't."},{"startTime":130.385,"endTime":133.715,"body":"Obviously this is, this is part and parcel"},{"startTime":130.385,"endTime":133.715,"body":"of working in an agile way, but they"},{"startTime":133.975,"endTime":137.655,"body":"don't have frequent touchpoints with the"},{"startTime":133.975,"endTime":137.655,"body":"customer, so they don't get feedback,"},{"startTime":137.705,"endTime":143.585,"body":"on the contrary, what they focus on is"},{"startTime":137.705,"endTime":143.585,"body":"getting all the requirements up front."},{"startTime":143.735,"endTime":146.345,"body":"We often call BRUF big"},{"startTime":143.735,"endTime":146.345,"body":"requirements up front."},{"startTime":146.405,"endTime":146.495,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":146.855,"endTime":150.005,"body":"And get 'em signed off in blood,"},{"startTime":146.855,"endTime":150.005,"body":"and then the minute the customer"},{"startTime":150.005,"endTime":151.715,"body":"says, wait, I know I said that."},{"startTime":152.58,"endTime":153.81,"body":"Hit 'em with a change request."},{"startTime":153.81,"endTime":154.02,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":154.02,"endTime":155.13,"body":"Hit 'em with a change request."},{"startTime":155.13,"endTime":155.85,"body":"Jump up and down."},{"startTime":155.85,"endTime":156.3,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":156.3,"endTime":156.54,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":156.72,"endTime":156.93,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":157.02,"endTime":158.52,"body":"Cr, CR one, CR two."},{"startTime":158.64,"endTime":158.97,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":158.97,"endTime":159.36,"body":"Needs money."},{"startTime":159.36,"endTime":159.63,"body":"It's a D."},{"startTime":159.63,"endTime":160.44,"body":"Different mindset."},{"startTime":160.5,"endTime":160.801,"body":"Needs money."},{"startTime":160.806,"endTime":161.13,"body":"Need the money."},{"startTime":161.135,"endTime":161.28,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":161.28,"endTime":162.36,"body":"Change all my deliverables."},{"startTime":162.54,"endTime":168.3,"body":"Listen, some organizations incent people"},{"startTime":162.54,"endTime":168.3,"body":"and reward people based on receivables."},{"startTime":168.3,"endTime":168.57,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":168.575,"endTime":171.565,"body":"So more change requests, the"},{"startTime":168.575,"endTime":171.565,"body":"better and so in that kind of an"},{"startTime":171.565,"endTime":175.375,"body":"environment, the project manager's"},{"startTime":171.565,"endTime":175.375,"body":"going to be focused on adhering"},{"startTime":175.375,"endTime":178.725,"body":"to those in those big requirements"},{"startTime":175.375,"endTime":178.725,"body":"documents that were signed off."},{"startTime":178.825,"endTime":181.375,"body":"One of the reasons this is so"},{"startTime":178.825,"endTime":181.375,"body":"relevant is our, we did a podcast"},{"startTime":181.375,"endTime":184.9,"body":"on contracts and that, like the"},{"startTime":181.375,"endTime":184.9,"body":"agile principle that basically"},{"startTime":184.9,"endTime":186.49,"body":"nobody, none of y'all out there are."},{"startTime":187.222,"endTime":187.942,"body":"On the internet"},{"startTime":188.035,"endTime":189.985,"body":"?"},{"startTime":188.035,"endTime":189.985,"body":"I could make guesses as"},{"startTime":190.195,"endTime":192.545,"body":"Covered so much in the air,"},{"startTime":190.195,"endTime":192.545,"body":"but the, customer collaboration"},{"startTime":192.545,"endTime":193.625,"body":"over contract negotiation."},{"startTime":193.675,"endTime":195.205,"body":"This falls in that same category."},{"startTime":195.205,"endTime":199.345,"body":"You have somebody who's used to"},{"startTime":195.205,"endTime":199.345,"body":"using the contract to beat people"},{"startTime":199.35,"endTime":202.585,"body":"over the head with it, and now"},{"startTime":199.35,"endTime":202.585,"body":"we're saying, don't do that anymore."},{"startTime":203.185,"endTime":204.835,"body":"So that, that is a heck of a gear shift."},{"startTime":204.895,"endTime":206.365,"body":"Well, that's a complete 180."},{"startTime":206.465,"endTime":210.155,"body":"Especially in organizations where"},{"startTime":206.465,"endTime":210.155,"body":"it's a project managers are bonused,"},{"startTime":210.215,"endTime":212.065,"body":"et cetera, based on the collectibles."},{"startTime":212.065,"endTime":212.305,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":212.305,"endTime":213.795,"body":"Yeah here we're talking."},{"startTime":214.48,"endTime":216.25,"body":"Putting the customer in the center."},{"startTime":216.46,"endTime":216.55,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":216.88,"endTime":218.17,"body":"That's a huge mind shift."},{"startTime":218.17,"endTime":223.388,"body":"And really, I'm, I'm stretching to think,"},{"startTime":218.17,"endTime":223.388,"body":"have I, have I ever come across a project"},{"startTime":223.388,"endTime":225.428,"body":"managers that have made that successfully?"},{"startTime":225.428,"endTime":227.918,"body":"I don't think I can come"},{"startTime":225.428,"endTime":227.918,"body":"up with any, I don't know."},{"startTime":228.488,"endTime":231.398,"body":"I can't come up with anybody who's done"},{"startTime":228.488,"endTime":231.398,"body":"well, maybe by the end of this podcast"},{"startTime":231.398,"endTime":233.018,"body":"we'll find out why there's so few."},{"startTime":233.078,"endTime":233.318,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":233.648,"endTime":236.918,"body":"Or like I said, maybe some"},{"startTime":233.648,"endTime":236.918,"body":"people will, will show up in the"},{"startTime":236.918,"endTime":238.178,"body":"comments and be like, Hey, I."},{"startTime":238.763,"endTime":239.543,"body":"The person you look at."},{"startTime":239.543,"endTime":239.903,"body":"Hello?"},{"startTime":239.933,"endTime":241.343,"body":"It's me that you're looking for."},{"startTime":243.813,"endTime":245.553,"body":"Maybe Lionel Ritchie will"},{"startTime":243.813,"endTime":245.553,"body":"show up in the comments."},{"startTime":245.558,"endTime":246.663,"body":"That's what I'm saying right now."},{"startTime":246.873,"endTime":250.718,"body":"Oh, he's, he's gonna be singing"},{"startTime":246.873,"endTime":250.718,"body":"over for king Charles coronation."},{"startTime":250.748,"endTime":251.318,"body":"Oh, is he?"},{"startTime":251.468,"endTime":251.798,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":251.918,"endTime":252.248,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":252.248,"endTime":253.838,"body":"Him and Katie Perry."},{"startTime":254.048,"endTime":255.608,"body":"Good British singers."},{"startTime":255.668,"endTime":256.118,"body":"Katie Perry."},{"startTime":256.448,"endTime":256.868,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":257.048,"endTime":257.528,"body":"Good British."},{"startTime":257.828,"endTime":262.218,"body":"Because, because all the, all the actual"},{"startTime":257.828,"endTime":262.218,"body":"like British singers, They all declined."},{"startTime":262.218,"endTime":263.838,"body":"They all, they're all"},{"startTime":262.218,"endTime":263.838,"body":"busy, but they declined."},{"startTime":263.838,"endTime":263.898,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":263.898,"endTime":264.678,"body":"We asked them all."},{"startTime":264.748,"endTime":265.068,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":265.073,"endTime":265.428,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":265.468,"endTime":266.108,"body":"They asked decline."},{"startTime":266.108,"endTime":268.398,"body":"Well, they asked Sir Elton"},{"startTime":266.108,"endTime":268.398,"body":"John and he is like, I'm busy."},{"startTime":270.288,"endTime":270.648,"body":"Anyhow."},{"startTime":270.648,"endTime":271.428,"body":"I, we digress."},{"startTime":271.428,"endTime":272.658,"body":"Hasn't he done enough service?"},{"startTime":272.663,"endTime":274.278,"body":"I'm just saying he's"},{"startTime":272.663,"endTime":274.278,"body":"done a lot of service."},{"startTime":274.283,"endTime":275.328,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":275.333,"endTime":276.768,"body":"He's not on drugs anymore, guys."},{"startTime":276.828,"endTime":278.688,"body":"He's not, therefore not available."},{"startTime":278.988,"endTime":281.563,"body":"So with that, let's let's just"},{"startTime":278.988,"endTime":281.563,"body":"say goodbye, yellow Brick Road."},{"startTime":281.563,"endTime":283.163,"body":"Come back to what we were talking about."},{"startTime":283.163,"endTime":283.793,"body":"What were we talking about?"},{"startTime":283.853,"endTime":284.363,"body":"What, so"},{"startTime":284.563,"endTime":288.253,"body":"we can talk through some of the, some"},{"startTime":284.563,"endTime":288.253,"body":"of the pros, some of the cons in,"},{"startTime":288.253,"endTime":293.593,"body":"in having a project manager as your"},{"startTime":288.253,"endTime":293.593,"body":"product manager slash product owner."},{"startTime":293.923,"endTime":298.543,"body":"And let's, let's start with the very"},{"startTime":293.923,"endTime":298.543,"body":"clear, obvious which should be a pro, I"},{"startTime":298.543,"endTime":301.603,"body":"dunno if you want to be on the, on the pro"},{"startTime":298.543,"endTime":301.603,"body":"side or on the con side of this moment."},{"startTime":301.753,"endTime":303.523,"body":"Let me just throw it out"},{"startTime":301.753,"endTime":303.523,"body":"there without context."},{"startTime":303.583,"endTime":303.853,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":303.943,"endTime":308.513,"body":"This person has  a lot of project"},{"startTime":303.943,"endTime":308.513,"body":"management experience, which directly"},{"startTime":308.833,"endTime":311.173,"body":"translates into ops experience."},{"startTime":311.173,"endTime":315.103,"body":"So there, in the podcast that we"},{"startTime":311.173,"endTime":315.103,"body":"did with Melissa Perri's Build"},{"startTime":315.103,"endTime":318.193,"body":"Trap, the visualization that"},{"startTime":315.103,"endTime":318.193,"body":"we showed is there's tactical."},{"startTime":318.413,"endTime":320.783,"body":"Things that you have to do"},{"startTime":318.413,"endTime":320.783,"body":"as a product manager, right?"},{"startTime":320.783,"endTime":323.573,"body":"There's operational things you have"},{"startTime":320.783,"endTime":323.573,"body":"to do, which is aligning dates and"},{"startTime":323.573,"endTime":326.213,"body":"you know, ge, getting people to do"},{"startTime":323.573,"endTime":326.213,"body":"things by a certain date and whatever."},{"startTime":326.303,"endTime":329.943,"body":"And then there's strategic things,"},{"startTime":326.303,"endTime":329.943,"body":"strategic, that type of that what,"},{"startTime":329.973,"endTime":332.753,"body":"what you do with a roadmap and above"},{"startTime":329.973,"endTime":332.753,"body":"the roadmap level, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":333.893,"endTime":337.913,"body":"Obviously project manager won't"},{"startTime":333.893,"endTime":337.913,"body":"have pro, probably won't have that"},{"startTime":337.913,"endTime":342.743,"body":"stuff, but the operational middle"},{"startTime":337.913,"endTime":342.743,"body":"where most product managers usually"},{"startTime":342.743,"endTime":346.703,"body":"don't get trained, they'll be able"},{"startTime":342.743,"endTime":346.703,"body":"to nail that skill I would think."},{"startTime":346.703,"endTime":346.913,"body":"So."},{"startTime":346.913,"endTime":350.153,"body":"They, they have, I think they, they"},{"startTime":346.913,"endTime":350.153,"body":"have the wiring for that, right?"},{"startTime":350.153,"endTime":356.273,"body":"As a project manager, they're, they're"},{"startTime":350.153,"endTime":356.273,"body":"used to managing dates, they're"},{"startTime":356.273,"endTime":360.053,"body":"used to managing people, working to"},{"startTime":356.273,"endTime":360.053,"body":"items for those dates, et cetera."},{"startTime":360.053,"endTime":361.103,"body":"So I think you're right."},{"startTime":361.133,"endTime":362.183,"body":"I think that is a natural."},{"startTime":362.903,"endTime":365.263,"body":"For project managers coming into product."},{"startTime":365.323,"endTime":365.503,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":366.073,"endTime":370.093,"body":"So that, that would be a pro, I guess"},{"startTime":366.073,"endTime":370.093,"body":"if you're looking to do that, the flip"},{"startTime":370.093,"endTime":373.753,"body":"side of that's going to be sometimes"},{"startTime":370.093,"endTime":373.753,"body":"you can be too rigid with those things."},{"startTime":373.753,"endTime":376.668,"body":"Yeah especially coming from that"},{"startTime":373.753,"endTime":376.668,"body":"background, all you're concerned about"},{"startTime":376.673,"endTime":378.618,"body":"is making that date or those dates."},{"startTime":378.618,"endTime":378.918,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":379.318,"endTime":381.683,"body":"And, and to a certain degree you need."},{"startTime":382.803,"endTime":384.783,"body":"You, you need more"},{"startTime":382.803,"endTime":384.783,"body":"empathy with the customer."},{"startTime":384.788,"endTime":385.053,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":385.053,"endTime":387.003,"body":"And figure out why those dates are missed."},{"startTime":387.273,"endTime":387.363,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":387.363,"endTime":389.963,"body":"And sometimes just say it's"},{"startTime":387.363,"endTime":389.963,"body":"okay if they're missed, if"},{"startTime":390.233,"endTime":391.583,"body":"that's for the right reasons."},{"startTime":391.793,"endTime":391.973,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":391.973,"endTime":395.543,"body":"Well line lining up dates and"},{"startTime":391.973,"endTime":395.543,"body":"Uh, basically operating, like"},{"startTime":395.543,"endTime":399.383,"body":"that's a, that's not really the"},{"startTime":395.543,"endTime":399.383,"body":"majority of your role anymore."},{"startTime":399.443,"endTime":399.623,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":399.653,"endTime":402.203,"body":"Even if if I were to show the, I mean,"},{"startTime":399.653,"endTime":402.203,"body":"I guess I talked about it so much."},{"startTime":402.203,"endTime":403.313,"body":"I have to show the build trap"},{"startTime":403.413,"endTime":405.123,"body":"I think that's probably big enough."},{"startTime":405.128,"endTime":407.193,"body":"Where's, can I go like"},{"startTime":405.128,"endTime":407.193,"body":"a little bit bigger?"},{"startTime":407.283,"endTime":408.093,"body":"Uh, nope, sorry."},{"startTime":408.093,"endTime":409.023,"body":"We don't have the technology."},{"startTime":410.433,"endTime":411.513,"body":"Okay, well, whatever."},{"startTime":411.933,"endTime":416.283,"body":"Um, so like you see here, Tactical"},{"startTime":411.933,"endTime":416.283,"body":"operations, strategic, but like the"},{"startTime":416.283,"endTime":417.633,"body":"operations, the green part mm-hmm."},{"startTime":417.963,"endTime":421.743,"body":"Is really, it's a tiny sliver until"},{"startTime":417.963,"endTime":421.743,"body":"you get to the director of product."},{"startTime":421.803,"endTime":422.013,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":422.018,"endTime":426.063,"body":"Where a like 50%, well probably,"},{"startTime":422.018,"endTime":426.063,"body":"oh, like by this it's more than"},{"startTime":426.063,"endTime":431.423,"body":"50%, but basically around 50% is"},{"startTime":426.063,"endTime":431.423,"body":"all operations lining things up."},{"startTime":431.573,"endTime":432.063,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":432.143,"endTime":434.843,"body":"And that doesn't make sense when you have"},{"startTime":432.143,"endTime":434.843,"body":"a staff under you that you're doing a"},{"startTime":434.843,"endTime":436.613,"body":"lot of lining things up on their behalf."},{"startTime":436.943,"endTime":439.063,"body":"But you know what, moving into."},{"startTime":439.548,"endTime":442.368,"body":"Even if you move directly in a product"},{"startTime":439.548,"endTime":442.368,"body":"manager or, I don't know, somehow you"},{"startTime":442.368,"endTime":443.748,"body":"move directly in a senior product manager."},{"startTime":443.988,"endTime":448.233,"body":"You see here it's about the same"},{"startTime":443.988,"endTime":448.233,"body":"amount of what, 20 20% maybe"},{"startTime":448.713,"endTime":450.633,"body":"15, 18%, something like that."},{"startTime":450.683,"endTime":450.833,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":450.833,"endTime":452.393,"body":"It is a small, it's a small amount."},{"startTime":452.813,"endTime":455.453,"body":"I guess it's an advantage,"},{"startTime":452.813,"endTime":455.453,"body":"but it's like a kind of a"},{"startTime":455.453,"endTime":457.413,"body":"negligible advantage maybe, yeah."},{"startTime":457.703,"endTime":459.243,"body":"It's not, it's not one of the big ones."},{"startTime":459.903,"endTime":460.203,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":460.203,"endTime":463.613,"body":"Well maybe we move on to to"},{"startTime":460.203,"endTime":463.613,"body":"an actual larger one like you."},{"startTime":464.283,"endTime":469.043,"body":"A, a pro on our list would be you have"},{"startTime":464.283,"endTime":469.043,"body":"a lot of experience with stakeholder"},{"startTime":469.043,"endTime":473.498,"body":"management, which does directly"},{"startTime":469.043,"endTime":473.498,"body":"translate into product management."},{"startTime":474.158,"endTime":474.938,"body":"Yeah, that's a good point."},{"startTime":474.938,"endTime":477.833,"body":"I think it translates as you"},{"startTime":474.938,"endTime":477.833,"body":"said, almost one-on-one, right?"},{"startTime":477.833,"endTime":479.273,"body":"Cause you're still managing stakeholders."},{"startTime":479.273,"endTime":479.363,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":479.788,"endTime":482.783,"body":"Not a lot changes there, I think"},{"startTime":479.788,"endTime":482.783,"body":"from skillset perspective, right?"},{"startTime":482.783,"endTime":484.433,"body":"You need the communication skills."},{"startTime":484.733,"endTime":487.463,"body":"You need to figure out who needs"},{"startTime":484.733,"endTime":487.463,"body":"to know what, when, how, et cetera."},{"startTime":487.643,"endTime":488.833,"body":"Sure and that doesn't change."},{"startTime":488.863,"endTime":493.033,"body":"So yeah, that's a, that's a big plus"},{"startTime":488.863,"endTime":493.033,"body":"for somebody from a project background"},{"startTime":493.033,"endTime":496.443,"body":"coming in because they don't have to learn"},{"startTime":493.033,"endTime":496.443,"body":"anything new they can apply what they."},{"startTime":496.898,"endTime":499.758,"body":"And still be, be effective"},{"startTime":496.898,"endTime":499.758,"body":"at managing stakeholders."},{"startTime":499.758,"endTime":502.038,"body":"Well, you went to the second"},{"startTime":499.758,"endTime":502.038,"body":"point of where I was gonna go"},{"startTime":502.038,"endTime":503.988,"body":"is it's communication skill."},{"startTime":503.988,"endTime":507.018,"body":"I would think that my project managers,"},{"startTime":503.988,"endTime":507.018,"body":"oh, I would hope, I don't know, maybe"},{"startTime":507.018,"endTime":510.048,"body":"this is not true, but I would think"},{"startTime":507.018,"endTime":510.048,"body":"that my project managers have have a bit"},{"startTime":510.048,"endTime":514.698,"body":"more polish and a bit more finesse and a"},{"startTime":510.048,"endTime":514.698,"body":"bit more ability in their communication"},{"startTime":514.703,"endTime":516.258,"body":"skill than anybody that came up."},{"startTime":516.258,"endTime":519.138,"body":"Like for example, if someone came up"},{"startTime":516.258,"endTime":519.138,"body":"through development and now they're"},{"startTime":519.138,"endTime":521.748,"body":"a product manager, I, I expect"},{"startTime":519.138,"endTime":521.748,"body":"they would be a bit more raw on."},{"startTime":522.543,"endTime":526.113,"body":"Communication and follow up skills and"},{"startTime":522.543,"endTime":526.113,"body":"the way they bring up sensitive things."},{"startTime":526.113,"endTime":530.103,"body":"And you know, like you may be talking to a"},{"startTime":526.113,"endTime":530.103,"body":"team that's stressed or whatever, or maybe"},{"startTime":530.108,"endTime":532.833,"body":"they've missed a deadline and now you"},{"startTime":530.108,"endTime":532.833,"body":"have to kind of confront them about it."},{"startTime":532.833,"endTime":535.533,"body":"But yeah you still need stuff out of"},{"startTime":532.833,"endTime":535.533,"body":"them, so you can't be burning bridges."},{"startTime":535.533,"endTime":536.823,"body":"There's a way to bring that up."},{"startTime":537.123,"endTime":541.843,"body":"So I I, the stakeholder management and"},{"startTime":537.123,"endTime":541.843,"body":"communication I see is separate topics."},{"startTime":542.113,"endTime":543.253,"body":"They are separate topics."},{"startTime":543.253,"endTime":545.983,"body":"I think they're somewhat related cause"},{"startTime":543.253,"endTime":545.983,"body":"you communicate with stakeholders, but"},{"startTime":545.983,"endTime":551.328,"body":"yes, they are separate, I think to the"},{"startTime":545.983,"endTime":551.328,"body":"communications management standpoint, yes."},{"startTime":551.478,"endTime":555.728,"body":"Somebody coming in through, coming up"},{"startTime":551.478,"endTime":555.728,"body":"through the development side of the house."},{"startTime":556.638,"endTime":558.128,"body":"They may not be as polished."},{"startTime":558.128,"endTime":562.973,"body":"They may not come in with the"},{"startTime":558.128,"endTime":562.973,"body":"mindset of raising issues and then"},{"startTime":562.973,"endTime":564.893,"body":"raising potential solutions perhaps."},{"startTime":564.893,"endTime":565.133,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":565.133,"endTime":566.753,"body":"Yeah putting that in that light."},{"startTime":567.023,"endTime":569.593,"body":"Yeah they may be direct in some cases."},{"startTime":569.593,"endTime":572.853,"body":"Right, that's possible too cuz"},{"startTime":569.593,"endTime":572.853,"body":"developers like to be very direct."},{"startTime":572.973,"endTime":575.583,"body":"Right just because of the"},{"startTime":572.973,"endTime":575.583,"body":"nature of who they are."},{"startTime":575.583,"endTime":578.803,"body":"Right project managers, on the"},{"startTime":575.583,"endTime":578.803,"body":"other hand, I think they vary."},{"startTime":579.043,"endTime":581.863,"body":"Some project managers that I've"},{"startTime":579.043,"endTime":581.863,"body":"come across, they, they're very"},{"startTime":581.863,"endTime":586.693,"body":"good at communicating mm-hmm and,"},{"startTime":581.863,"endTime":586.693,"body":"and taking those absolute hard."},{"startTime":587.188,"endTime":591.648,"body":"Numerical concepts and putting them"},{"startTime":587.188,"endTime":591.648,"body":"in terms that are, let's just say,"},{"startTime":591.653,"endTime":594.888,"body":"more palatable for the stakeholders."},{"startTime":595.008,"endTime":595.908,"body":"Some, some of them?"},{"startTime":596.778,"endTime":599.028,"body":"Yeah, some of 'em, some of them"},{"startTime":596.778,"endTime":599.028,"body":"on the other hand I was gonna"},{"startTime":599.028,"endTime":601.548,"body":"say are Oh, just direct, right?"},{"startTime":601.638,"endTime":601.698,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":601.698,"endTime":603.648,"body":"I was gonna say, I'll, I'll"},{"startTime":601.698,"endTime":603.648,"body":"go with no filter people."},{"startTime":603.648,"endTime":606.648,"body":"I'll go with you on this up until a"},{"startTime":603.648,"endTime":606.648,"body":"point, but because I've worked with some"},{"startTime":606.648,"endTime":611.588,"body":"project managers, That uh, woo boy, you"},{"startTime":606.648,"endTime":611.588,"body":"would think they started with the you"},{"startTime":611.588,"endTime":613.958,"body":"know, they, they were born in a barn."},{"startTime":613.958,"endTime":615.158,"body":"I don't, I don't know"},{"startTime":613.958,"endTime":615.158,"body":"what you would think."},{"startTime":615.158,"endTime":615.938,"body":"I have no idea."},{"startTime":615.938,"endTime":617.128,"body":"Like, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":617.128,"endTime":619.828,"body":"They, they tend to be very"},{"startTime":617.128,"endTime":619.828,"body":"direct sometimes and no filter."},{"startTime":620.068,"endTime":621.208,"body":"It doesn't matter who's there."},{"startTime":621.238,"endTime":622.438,"body":"Where does influence live?"},{"startTime":622.438,"endTime":625.378,"body":"Does it live under stakeholder management"},{"startTime":622.438,"endTime":625.378,"body":"or under communication or both?"},{"startTime":625.408,"endTime":629.428,"body":"Like in, because like as a product"},{"startTime":625.408,"endTime":629.428,"body":"manager, you have to build influence."},{"startTime":629.783,"endTime":633.238,"body":"Uh uh, as a project manager, this is"},{"startTime":629.783,"endTime":633.238,"body":"gonna be real confusing for me to keep"},{"startTime":633.238,"endTime":636.878,"body":"using these few terms as a project"},{"startTime":633.238,"endTime":636.878,"body":"manager, you still do have to influence."},{"startTime":636.878,"endTime":641.378,"body":"I mean, you don't have direct control"},{"startTime":636.878,"endTime":641.378,"body":"of, I guess, things that are outside of"},{"startTime":641.383,"endTime":644.098,"body":"your sphere vendors, stuff like that."},{"startTime":644.098,"endTime":646.558,"body":"Maybe it's not a great argument cuz"},{"startTime":644.098,"endTime":646.558,"body":"they kind of are in your control."},{"startTime":646.648,"endTime":648.478,"body":"I think there is an"},{"startTime":646.648,"endTime":648.478,"body":"argument to be made there."},{"startTime":648.478,"endTime":653.428,"body":"A project manager has more authority by,"},{"startTime":648.478,"endTime":653.428,"body":"by virtue of the position, I suppose."},{"startTime":653.458,"endTime":654.338,"body":"Yeah than."},{"startTime":654.673,"endTime":656.113,"body":"Product manager might."},{"startTime":656.323,"endTime":659.773,"body":"So, so to that end, they have"},{"startTime":656.323,"endTime":659.773,"body":"to build their influence, right?"},{"startTime":659.773,"endTime":662.983,"body":"They have to make sure that their"},{"startTime":659.773,"endTime":662.983,"body":"alliances are brought up and all that."},{"startTime":663.493,"endTime":665.943,"body":"I don't know, I think you can go"},{"startTime":663.493,"endTime":665.943,"body":"either way on this, but project"},{"startTime":665.943,"endTime":668.403,"body":"managers also need to do that,"},{"startTime":665.943,"endTime":668.403,"body":"especially if they're new."},{"startTime":668.433,"endTime":672.288,"body":"Mm-hmm to the project, to the firm"},{"startTime":668.433,"endTime":672.288,"body":"or company or just new to the team."},{"startTime":672.558,"endTime":673.428,"body":"They still have to do that."},{"startTime":673.708,"endTime":677.098,"body":"There's one category that I actually"},{"startTime":673.708,"endTime":677.098,"body":"want to hit that I think is."},{"startTime":677.913,"endTime":680.433,"body":"Look, all, all these, we kind of"},{"startTime":677.913,"endTime":680.433,"body":"talked about both sides, right?"},{"startTime":680.483,"endTime":684.683,"body":"I think there's a big advantage with"},{"startTime":680.483,"endTime":684.683,"body":"this last category, which is expanded"},{"startTime":685.043,"endTime":687.323,"body":"awareness of like running a business."},{"startTime":688.043,"endTime":692.423,"body":"I think of any product manager that"},{"startTime":688.043,"endTime":692.423,"body":"I've worked with, or even me, like if"},{"startTime":692.423,"endTime":695.658,"body":"someone came to me and said all right,"},{"startTime":692.423,"endTime":695.658,"body":"Brian, I want you to launch this new"},{"startTime":696.048,"endTime":697.728,"body":"software module that does whatever, and"},{"startTime":697.728,"endTime":700.278,"body":"oh, I want come up with a budget"},{"startTime":697.728,"endTime":700.278,"body":"of how much it's gonna cost and"},{"startTime":700.283,"endTime":701.868,"body":"milestones, or how long it's gonna take."},{"startTime":701.868,"endTime":705.528,"body":"Generally speaking, they don't have to"},{"startTime":701.868,"endTime":705.528,"body":"be accurate, but you know, just generally"},{"startTime":705.528,"endTime":709.993,"body":"speaking in stub it all out so I can do"},{"startTime":705.528,"endTime":709.993,"body":"my budget for next year, cuz whatever,"},{"startTime":709.993,"endTime":713.173,"body":"maybe this is reality that we're living"},{"startTime":709.993,"endTime":713.173,"body":"in, people do yearly budgets and stuff"},{"startTime":713.173,"endTime":716.533,"body":"like that and they're asking me to"},{"startTime":713.173,"endTime":716.533,"body":"basically set a lot of this stuff up."},{"startTime":716.533,"endTime":719.713,"body":"Scratch someone who's got"},{"startTime":716.533,"endTime":719.713,"body":"the, the PMP certification."},{"startTime":719.718,"endTime":721.693,"body":"Like they, at least they've"},{"startTime":719.718,"endTime":721.693,"body":"done this stuff on paper."},{"startTime":722.123,"endTime":724.103,"body":"What I, I could do it"},{"startTime":722.123,"endTime":724.103,"body":"just because I have the."},{"startTime":724.973,"endTime":729.078,"body":"Right but  there's a certain way"},{"startTime":724.973,"endTime":729.078,"body":"that a, a project manager would walk"},{"startTime":729.078,"endTime":732.648,"body":"through that kind of stuff and then"},{"startTime":729.078,"endTime":732.648,"body":"work with the business leaders and"},{"startTime":732.653,"endTime":735.783,"body":"people that have budget and stuff"},{"startTime":732.653,"endTime":735.783,"body":"like that, and or move things along."},{"startTime":735.783,"endTime":739.263,"body":"So I, I, I think this is kind of the"},{"startTime":735.783,"endTime":739.263,"body":"advantage that point goes into the"},{"startTime":739.263,"endTime":740.733,"body":"project manager category on this one."},{"startTime":740.943,"endTime":744.893,"body":"Yeah, I, I initially, I concur with"},{"startTime":740.943,"endTime":744.893,"body":"you there because project managers"},{"startTime":744.893,"endTime":748.653,"body":"typically do work out budgets,"},{"startTime":744.893,"endTime":748.653,"body":"et cetera, not just on paper."},{"startTime":748.658,"endTime":748.893,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":748.893,"endTime":750.303,"body":"They do that in the software too."},{"startTime":750.373,"endTime":755.988,"body":"Mm-hmm so they have the jobs to figure"},{"startTime":750.373,"endTime":755.988,"body":"all that out, make projections, et cetera."},{"startTime":756.888,"endTime":758.148,"body":"That part is fine."},{"startTime":758.178,"endTime":762.258,"body":"I, and those aren't necessarily really"},{"startTime":758.178,"endTime":762.258,"body":"challenging skills that people can learn."},{"startTime":762.468,"endTime":762.588,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":762.618,"endTime":766.968,"body":"But here's where I'm gonna go the other"},{"startTime":762.618,"endTime":766.968,"body":"way and say they're gonna be just simply"},{"startTime":766.968,"endTime":772.603,"body":"focused on people as resources come up"},{"startTime":766.968,"endTime":772.603,"body":"with budgets they're not gonna be worried"},{"startTime":772.603,"endTime":777.343,"body":"about or concerned, I should not worried,"},{"startTime":772.603,"endTime":777.343,"body":"concerned about coming up with budgets"},{"startTime":777.343,"endTime":780.223,"body":"by product features, for example, right?"},{"startTime":780.253,"endTime":780.493,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":780.573,"endTime":781.293,"body":"They, they don't have."},{"startTime":781.768,"endTime":783.868,"body":"That wiring, they don't"},{"startTime":781.768,"endTime":783.868,"body":"think about it that way."},{"startTime":784.078,"endTime":785.068,"body":"Who's gonna be building it?"},{"startTime":785.068,"endTime":786.838,"body":"How many people are"},{"startTime":785.068,"endTime":786.838,"body":"working here for how long?"},{"startTime":786.838,"endTime":788.138,"body":"What's their what's their rate?"},{"startTime":788.348,"endTime":789.398,"body":"What are their rates?"},{"startTime":789.398,"endTime":791.768,"body":"Because that's what they've been doing."},{"startTime":791.768,"endTime":793.343,"body":"Right as a project manager."},{"startTime":793.343,"endTime":796.973,"body":"So, yes, it's an advantage, but also it"},{"startTime":793.343,"endTime":796.973,"body":"can be a disadvantage if they're not."},{"startTime":797.543,"endTime":799.963,"body":"Willing to quickly adapt"},{"startTime":797.543,"endTime":799.963,"body":"and think about things."},{"startTime":799.963,"endTime":801.783,"body":"Yeah from a budgeting perspective."},{"startTime":801.783,"endTime":801.993,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":801.993,"endTime":804.033,"body":"Think about things from"},{"startTime":801.993,"endTime":804.033,"body":"a product point of view."},{"startTime":804.583,"endTime":808.148,"body":"So the, like everything up until this"},{"startTime":804.583,"endTime":808.148,"body":"point was things that I think, might"},{"startTime":808.148,"endTime":811.988,"body":"be advantages that project managers"},{"startTime":808.148,"endTime":811.988,"body":"coming in might have on their side."},{"startTime":811.988,"endTime":812.858,"body":"So we kind of talked about both."},{"startTime":813.158,"endTime":817.058,"body":"Now we'll go into the category of things"},{"startTime":813.158,"endTime":817.058,"body":"that I think are like pretty strictly"},{"startTime":817.058,"endTime":821.048,"body":"disadvantages and we can kind of talk"},{"startTime":817.058,"endTime":821.048,"body":"through both sides of each one of those."},{"startTime":821.108,"endTime":824.198,"body":"And the, and I want to pivot"},{"startTime":821.108,"endTime":824.198,"body":"now because you just brought up."},{"startTime":824.843,"endTime":827.873,"body":"The first one that I think is a"},{"startTime":824.843,"endTime":827.873,"body":"disadvantage, which is the, that,"},{"startTime":827.873,"endTime":834.393,"body":"that they've never been asked to"},{"startTime":827.873,"endTime":834.393,"body":"do product research and basically"},{"startTime":834.393,"endTime":838.373,"body":"start delivering something and start"},{"startTime":834.393,"endTime":838.373,"body":"delivering with this large cloud of"},{"startTime":838.373,"endTime":844.013,"body":"ambiguity or all these unknowns to just"},{"startTime":838.373,"endTime":844.013,"body":"say, Hey, don't worry about a plan."},{"startTime":844.433,"endTime":845.573,"body":"Just start delivering."},{"startTime":845.873,"endTime":849.023,"body":"And you can use some discovery"},{"startTime":845.873,"endTime":849.023,"body":"methods to find your way where"},{"startTime":849.243,"endTime":851.963,"body":"you're going once you're delivering,"},{"startTime":849.243,"endTime":851.963,"body":"but I need you delivering first."},{"startTime":852.653,"endTime":858.543,"body":"So the, that, that, that living in a"},{"startTime":852.653,"endTime":858.543,"body":"world of you know, I mean it could be"},{"startTime":858.543,"endTime":860.973,"body":"if you're setting up a product from"},{"startTime":858.543,"endTime":860.973,"body":"the ground up, it could be living in a"},{"startTime":860.973,"endTime":862.953,"body":"world, in a world of total ambiguity."},{"startTime":863.433,"endTime":867.263,"body":"As you research your way through"},{"startTime":863.433,"endTime":867.263,"body":"that, that research based approach,"},{"startTime":867.503,"endTime":870.993,"body":"I think that is working against them"},{"startTime":867.503,"endTime":870.993,"body":"that, that, that scientific approach"},{"startTime":870.993,"endTime":873.783,"body":"of like, try something, get some"},{"startTime":870.993,"endTime":873.783,"body":"feedback, change your methods, do"},{"startTime":873.783,"endTime":876.903,"body":"something else, like I think that's"},{"startTime":873.783,"endTime":876.903,"body":"working against their mindset basically."},{"startTime":877.383,"endTime":877.623,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":877.623,"endTime":878.463,"body":"I concur with that."},{"startTime":878.463,"endTime":879.783,"body":"It is working against them."},{"startTime":879.783,"endTime":883.743,"body":"They're used to having more certainty,"},{"startTime":879.783,"endTime":883.743,"body":"having lines on a get chart that"},{"startTime":883.983,"endTime":885.883,"body":"they can how long is it gonna take?"},{"startTime":885.883,"endTime":889.613,"body":"They oftentimes dictate that if"},{"startTime":885.883,"endTime":889.613,"body":"they do speak with their team"},{"startTime":889.613,"endTime":893.023,"body":"members mm-hmm they'll add their own"},{"startTime":889.613,"endTime":893.023,"body":"padding on that, all of that stuff."},{"startTime":893.083,"endTime":894.073,"body":"So yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":894.073,"endTime":898.123,"body":"They don't have this, this idea of"},{"startTime":894.073,"endTime":898.123,"body":"being comfortable with the unknown."},{"startTime":898.183,"endTime":898.513,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":898.513,"endTime":899.623,"body":"Or with ambiguity."},{"startTime":899.628,"endTime":901.008,"body":"So with uncertainty, right?"},{"startTime":901.008,"endTime":902.808,"body":"So yeah, that's a big disadvantage in."},{"startTime":903.888,"endTime":905.498,"body":"Project manager's camp."},{"startTime":905.498,"endTime":907.718,"body":"I guess I didn't even think"},{"startTime":905.498,"endTime":907.718,"body":"about padding estimates."},{"startTime":907.718,"endTime":911.258,"body":"I like, it's been so long that I've"},{"startTime":907.718,"endTime":911.258,"body":"been out of the world of dealing with"},{"startTime":911.258,"endTime":915.158,"body":"project managers that I completely forgot"},{"startTime":911.258,"endTime":915.158,"body":"that everybody pads their estimates."},{"startTime":915.248,"endTime":916.508,"body":"You know what I mean by, by some amount."},{"startTime":916.508,"endTime":918.128,"body":"Like a up or down, it"},{"startTime":916.508,"endTime":918.128,"body":"doesn't really matter."},{"startTime":918.128,"endTime":922.058,"body":"But there is padding built in and"},{"startTime":918.128,"endTime":922.058,"body":"it, it's, it's been so many years."},{"startTime":922.553,"endTime":928.373,"body":"Where I've been giving, I, I, I guess,"},{"startTime":922.553,"endTime":928.373,"body":"quote, clean estimates I like the velocity"},{"startTime":928.373,"endTime":930.143,"body":"or the throughput or the flow or whatever."},{"startTime":930.143,"endTime":933.263,"body":"We're using, cycle time, lead"},{"startTime":930.143,"endTime":933.263,"body":"time, like they are what they are."},{"startTime":933.503,"endTime":936.113,"body":"Like there, there's no reason"},{"startTime":933.503,"endTime":936.113,"body":"to pad that stuff down."},{"startTime":936.163,"endTime":936.643,"body":"Well, you can't, right?"},{"startTime":936.643,"endTime":939.463,"body":"These are, these are lagging"},{"startTime":936.643,"endTime":939.463,"body":"indicators, so you can't really pat 'em."},{"startTime":939.643,"endTime":942.973,"body":"Right but that doesn't exist in the"},{"startTime":939.643,"endTime":942.973,"body":"project management world so much."},{"startTime":942.973,"endTime":946.633,"body":"So what they do is build in that"},{"startTime":942.973,"endTime":946.633,"body":"stuff and they formalize it, right?"},{"startTime":946.633,"endTime":948.523,"body":"Often they call 'em feeding buffers."},{"startTime":948.523,"endTime":951.133,"body":"This task feeds this task and"},{"startTime":948.523,"endTime":951.133,"body":"all this stuff in the middle."},{"startTime":951.553,"endTime":952.633,"body":"You can flex either way."},{"startTime":952.633,"endTime":954.343,"body":"So we're gonna pat it basically."},{"startTime":954.373,"endTime":954.463,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":954.543,"endTime":954.703,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":954.763,"endTime":957.643,"body":"But I do wanna talk about, okay, so"},{"startTime":954.763,"endTime":957.643,"body":"we, we are flip flopping, but, or"},{"startTime":957.643,"endTime":959.383,"body":"I am, at least I wanna talk about."},{"startTime":960.143,"endTime":961.073,"body":"There's no rules here."},{"startTime":961.073,"endTime":964.413,"body":"There's no rules here the only rules"},{"startTime":961.073,"endTime":964.413,"body":"are no rules I do wanna talk about"},{"startTime":964.413,"endTime":968.403,"body":"one, which is an advantage again,"},{"startTime":964.413,"endTime":968.403,"body":"for the project management camp,"},{"startTime":968.408,"endTime":970.823,"body":"which is risk management, right?"},{"startTime":970.853,"endTime":970.943,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":971.183,"endTime":975.623,"body":"So they, they, they, they are well-versed"},{"startTime":971.183,"endTime":975.623,"body":"in identifying risks and then putting"},{"startTime":975.623,"endTime":980.753,"body":"them in that category of are they,"},{"startTime":975.623,"endTime":980.753,"body":"are they accepted, are they mitigated,"},{"startTime":980.753,"endTime":982.163,"body":"et cetera, are they transferred?"},{"startTime":982.403,"endTime":983.033,"body":"Things like that."},{"startTime":983.033,"endTime":985.223,"body":"Especially if you have vendors"},{"startTime":983.033,"endTime":985.223,"body":"and you have a risk on them,"},{"startTime":985.583,"endTime":986.513,"body":"you put the risk on the."},{"startTime":987.283,"endTime":989.533,"body":"Thus transferring the"},{"startTime":987.283,"endTime":989.533,"body":"risk, it's still a risk."},{"startTime":989.593,"endTime":993.733,"body":"The project managers are very good at"},{"startTime":989.593,"endTime":993.733,"body":"that so I, I think that's an advantage."},{"startTime":993.793,"endTime":997.543,"body":"I think people not from that background"},{"startTime":993.793,"endTime":997.543,"body":"may have to pick up those skills."},{"startTime":997.843,"endTime":1003.503,"body":"Hey maybe let, let me let's, I have"},{"startTime":997.843,"endTime":1003.503,"body":"the natural impulse to push back"},{"startTime":1003.508,"endTime":1006.023,"body":"on this one, but I don't know if"},{"startTime":1003.508,"endTime":1006.023,"body":"that's just me naturally being a"},{"startTime":1006.023,"endTime":1009.223,"body":"pain or if  I actually am detecting"},{"startTime":1006.023,"endTime":1009.223,"body":"something that I wanna talk about."},{"startTime":1009.723,"endTime":1011.483,"body":"I will say the, the majority."},{"startTime":1011.858,"endTime":1016.568,"body":"Feature team, product managers probably"},{"startTime":1011.858,"endTime":1016.568,"body":"yes, you'll have an advantage over them."},{"startTime":1016.868,"endTime":1019.478,"body":"Like the people that are fed work, people"},{"startTime":1016.868,"endTime":1019.478,"body":"in feature factories, stuff like that."},{"startTime":1019.478,"endTime":1022.208,"body":"You'll, you might have an advantage"},{"startTime":1019.478,"endTime":1022.208,"body":"over them, but the, the product"},{"startTime":1022.208,"endTime":1025.448,"body":"managers who find their way forward"},{"startTime":1022.208,"endTime":1025.448,"body":"through continuous discovery."},{"startTime":1026.181,"endTime":1028.881,"body":"I'm, I'm not sure this is the same skill."},{"startTime":1029.681,"endTime":1034.871,"body":"so the where it sounds like it's the"},{"startTime":1029.681,"endTime":1034.871,"body":"same skill is hey, when, when we are"},{"startTime":1034.871,"endTime":1037.721,"body":"in this discovery phase, we should"},{"startTime":1034.871,"endTime":1037.721,"body":"be working through the business"},{"startTime":1037.721,"endTime":1041.861,"body":"viability and the usability and all"},{"startTime":1037.721,"endTime":1041.861,"body":"the business risks that can come up"},{"startTime":1041.882,"endTime":1043.202,"body":"when you decide to work on something."},{"startTime":1046.05,"endTime":1049.35,"body":"I, I told the story, which may or"},{"startTime":1046.05,"endTime":1049.35,"body":"may not survive past the editing,"},{"startTime":1049.78,"endTime":1053.98,"body":"the intent of the story was to say,"},{"startTime":1049.78,"endTime":1053.98,"body":"knocking down business risk saying,"},{"startTime":1053.98,"endTime":1058.6,"body":"Hey, if we use these shaky tools, or"},{"startTime":1053.98,"endTime":1058.6,"body":"if we use these sketchy providers,"},{"startTime":1058.605,"endTime":1062.53,"body":"I don't know why everyone's sketchy,"},{"startTime":1058.605,"endTime":1062.53,"body":"but it we, they may not be stable."},{"startTime":1062.56,"endTime":1065.59,"body":"Oh, we might, we might invest"},{"startTime":1062.56,"endTime":1065.59,"body":"with this partner business, right?"},{"startTime":1065.68,"endTime":1067.96,"body":"And then they might be outta"},{"startTime":1065.68,"endTime":1067.96,"body":"business six months from now."},{"startTime":1068.755,"endTime":1072.435,"body":"The, all that stuff is the product"},{"startTime":1068.755,"endTime":1072.435,"body":"manager's job is, is what you're"},{"startTime":1072.435,"endTime":1077.235,"body":"saying that the project manager"},{"startTime":1072.435,"endTime":1077.235,"body":"is used to doing stuff like"},{"startTime":1077.235,"endTime":1078.375,"body":"that, so they have an advantage?"},{"startTime":1078.375,"endTime":1079.065,"body":"Is that where you're going?"},{"startTime":1079.065,"endTime":1079.365,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1079.37,"endTime":1083.055,"body":"Project managers don't typically think"},{"startTime":1079.37,"endTime":1083.055,"body":"about market and things like that."},{"startTime":1083.06,"endTime":1083.125,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1083.205,"endTime":1083.325,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1083.325,"endTime":1086.475,"body":"They, they're, they're thinking more"},{"startTime":1083.325,"endTime":1086.475,"body":"about what they call, quote unquote"},{"startTime":1087.045,"endTime":1090.075,"body":"resource risk, schedule risk, vendor risk."},{"startTime":1090.075,"endTime":1091.305,"body":"We might, we might have"},{"startTime":1090.075,"endTime":1091.305,"body":"missed sorts of things."},{"startTime":1091.485,"endTime":1091.755,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1091.76,"endTime":1095.075,"body":"So, so less likely that we have"},{"startTime":1091.76,"endTime":1095.075,"body":"missed a, a piece of the process"},{"startTime":1095.075,"endTime":1096.605,"body":"or something that we ex Exactly."},{"startTime":1096.665,"endTime":1100.505,"body":"So it's not a wider remit to think"},{"startTime":1096.665,"endTime":1100.505,"body":"about from a business perspective."},{"startTime":1100.575,"endTime":1101.665,"body":"I mean, that's still an advantage."},{"startTime":1102.215,"endTime":1104.88,"body":"I, I it is, but it's not a"},{"startTime":1102.215,"endTime":1104.88,"body":"massive advantage those skills"},{"startTime":1104.88,"endTime":1106.29,"body":"can be learned, you know?"},{"startTime":1106.29,"endTime":1108.84,"body":"It, it's not too big, but it, it is there."},{"startTime":1108.93,"endTime":1110.61,"body":"I think it's a palpable advantage."},{"startTime":1110.732,"endTime":1111.722,"body":"I agree with all that."},{"startTime":1111.722,"endTime":1116.137,"body":"I, I kind of shuffled it back into like"},{"startTime":1111.722,"endTime":1116.137,"body":"be being good or thorough at operations,"},{"startTime":1116.137,"endTime":1120.067,"body":"being, being detail oriented with, with"},{"startTime":1116.137,"endTime":1120.067,"body":"operations in mind, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1120.127,"endTime":1124.857,"body":"It's not exactly the same as what I think"},{"startTime":1120.127,"endTime":1124.857,"body":"of is risk mitigation in terms of my risk."},{"startTime":1124.857,"endTime":1126.927,"body":"Like, I'm gonna build a"},{"startTime":1124.857,"endTime":1126.927,"body":"feature and nobody's gonna use"},{"startTime":1126.927,"endTime":1127.707,"body":"it when I put it out there."},{"startTime":1127.707,"endTime":1128.787,"body":"That, that's a risk in mind."},{"startTime":1128.787,"endTime":1129.837,"body":"That's broad think right."},{"startTime":1130.037,"endTime":1130.397,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1130.427,"endTime":1132.107,"body":"They don't bring that necessarily Yeah."},{"startTime":1132.107,"endTime":1136.277,"body":"As a project based, so they think"},{"startTime":1132.107,"endTime":1136.277,"body":"about it from perspective of delivery."},{"startTime":1136.727,"endTime":1138.377,"body":"They think about delivery risks."},{"startTime":1138.407,"endTime":1138.467,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1138.472,"endTime":1138.677,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1138.677,"endTime":1142.907,"body":"Is something gonna be delayed is, is"},{"startTime":1138.677,"endTime":1142.907,"body":"something slipping so that it would impact"},{"startTime":1142.907,"endTime":1146.777,"body":"something else upon which that which is"},{"startTime":1142.907,"endTime":1146.777,"body":"slipping is dependent, things like that."},{"startTime":1146.777,"endTime":1147.227,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1147.272,"endTime":1149.852,"body":"It, it's not, it's not a huge"},{"startTime":1147.272,"endTime":1149.852,"body":"advantage or a disadvantage."},{"startTime":1150.282,"endTime":1151.382,"body":"Probably, probably a disadvantage."},{"startTime":1151.442,"endTime":1153.602,"body":"I said, hang on, I'm just"},{"startTime":1151.442,"endTime":1153.602,"body":"thinking through this."},{"startTime":1153.937,"endTime":1158.407,"body":"Well, it's a bigger disadvantage and it"},{"startTime":1153.937,"endTime":1158.407,"body":"is an advantage now because they don't"},{"startTime":1158.407,"endTime":1159.727,"body":"have the, the business perspective."},{"startTime":1160.252,"endTime":1163.622,"body":"Well, where I was going before,"},{"startTime":1160.252,"endTime":1163.622,"body":"like my, my brain became my"},{"startTime":1163.622,"endTime":1165.212,"body":"brain and sidetracked myself."},{"startTime":1165.632,"endTime":1170.667,"body":"Um, where I was going was I'm already"},{"startTime":1165.632,"endTime":1170.667,"body":"forgetting, oh uh, like this might lead"},{"startTime":1170.672,"endTime":1172.197,"body":"to like feature factory type of thing."},{"startTime":1172.257,"endTime":1172.577,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1172.657,"endTime":1176.157,"body":"Or, or like, we have to do"},{"startTime":1172.657,"endTime":1176.157,"body":"all of AC feature X, Y, Z."},{"startTime":1176.427,"endTime":1176.637,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1176.667,"endTime":1177.027,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1177.027,"endTime":1180.357,"body":"They might lead to that kind of like,"},{"startTime":1177.027,"endTime":1180.357,"body":"well, I made the plan to do all of."},{"startTime":1181.137,"endTime":1185.247,"body":"I don't want to leave the last two"},{"startTime":1181.137,"endTime":1185.247,"body":"tasks open, even though I've got"},{"startTime":1185.407,"endTime":1187.747,"body":"everyone in the business agrees"},{"startTime":1185.407,"endTime":1187.747,"body":"that there are higher priorities."},{"startTime":1187.747,"endTime":1189.157,"body":"Like, why are you still working on that?"},{"startTime":1189.457,"endTime":1190.627,"body":"Haven't you delivered enough?"},{"startTime":1190.687,"endTime":1191.047,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1191.887,"endTime":1193.777,"body":"That kind of I don't even"},{"startTime":1191.887,"endTime":1193.777,"body":"know really what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1193.777,"endTime":1194.647,"body":"No, I think you're right."},{"startTime":1194.647,"endTime":1196.207,"body":"They don't know when to"},{"startTime":1194.647,"endTime":1196.207,"body":"draw the line, you know?"},{"startTime":1196.447,"endTime":1199.297,"body":"Well, any deviation from"},{"startTime":1196.447,"endTime":1199.297,"body":"a plan, I suppose, right?"},{"startTime":1199.297,"endTime":1203.347,"body":"Any deviation from a plan, they're"},{"startTime":1199.297,"endTime":1203.347,"body":"gonna see that as this is not good."},{"startTime":1203.557,"endTime":1208.387,"body":"So let's just come back to the original"},{"startTime":1203.557,"endTime":1208.387,"body":"plan, even though there's merit."},{"startTime":1209.312,"endTime":1210.622,"body":"I'm not doing that well."},{"startTime":1210.622,"endTime":1214.712,"body":"This, this is, this goes directly"},{"startTime":1210.622,"endTime":1214.712,"body":"into our next point on here, which"},{"startTime":1214.712,"endTime":1219.542,"body":"is they're going to have to have"},{"startTime":1214.712,"endTime":1219.542,"body":"a, a significant mindset shift."},{"startTime":1220.682,"endTime":1222.392,"body":"To operate in this new paradigm."},{"startTime":1222.692,"endTime":1225.272,"body":"Ooh, I don't get to say the word"},{"startTime":1222.692,"endTime":1225.272,"body":"paradigm often on the podcast."},{"startTime":1225.272,"endTime":1226.262,"body":"That's, that was fun."},{"startTime":1226.712,"endTime":1229.642,"body":"Um but, but they, but seriously,"},{"startTime":1226.712,"endTime":1229.642,"body":"they had like the idea of like, well,"},{"startTime":1229.647,"endTime":1235.762,"body":"we planned eight stories to deliver"},{"startTime":1229.647,"endTime":1235.762,"body":"this epic, and we delivered four,"},{"startTime":1235.767,"endTime":1237.472,"body":"or we delivered five of the stories."},{"startTime":1237.832,"endTime":1240.952,"body":"There's still three out there,"},{"startTime":1237.832,"endTime":1240.952,"body":"but the customers tells us"},{"startTime":1240.952,"endTime":1242.242,"body":"like, we love it the way it is."},{"startTime":1242.242,"endTime":1244.582,"body":"Like, we don't, we don't like"},{"startTime":1242.242,"endTime":1244.582,"body":"those other things would be"},{"startTime":1244.582,"endTime":1246.472,"body":"great, but we love it like this."},{"startTime":1246.477,"endTime":1246.832,"body":"And."},{"startTime":1247.212,"endTime":1250.362,"body":"And you're looking at what the customer's"},{"startTime":1247.212,"endTime":1250.362,"body":"telling you, and you're also looking at"},{"startTime":1250.362,"endTime":1252.222,"body":"the things that you need to jump to next."},{"startTime":1252.282,"endTime":1254.172,"body":"The, the, the, the value"},{"startTime":1252.282,"endTime":1254.172,"body":"you have to jump to next."},{"startTime":1254.232,"endTime":1256.722,"body":"And you're saying, you know what,"},{"startTime":1254.232,"endTime":1256.722,"body":"all this stuff I need to jump to next"},{"startTime":1256.722,"endTime":1262.512,"body":"is like way more valuable than these"},{"startTime":1256.722,"endTime":1262.512,"body":"other little button up type of tasks."},{"startTime":1262.762,"endTime":1264.712,"body":"Again, assuming we're not talking"},{"startTime":1262.762,"endTime":1264.712,"body":"about technical debt or whatever,"},{"startTime":1264.712,"endTime":1265.862,"body":"all things being equal, right?"},{"startTime":1266.502,"endTime":1268.342,"body":"And, and you'll say, you know"},{"startTime":1266.502,"endTime":1268.342,"body":"what like maybe I'll move these"},{"startTime":1268.342,"endTime":1269.482,"body":"way down the backlog and if we."},{"startTime":1270.212,"endTime":1272.012,"body":"Time to pick up like little"},{"startTime":1270.212,"endTime":1272.012,"body":"onesie twosie things."},{"startTime":1272.012,"endTime":1274.262,"body":"Maybe we'll pick it up in the"},{"startTime":1272.012,"endTime":1274.262,"body":"future, but you're, you're basically"},{"startTime":1274.262,"endTime":1276.152,"body":"saying, yes, we did plan this."},{"startTime":1276.482,"endTime":1280.352,"body":"Yes, we always intended to do it,"},{"startTime":1276.482,"endTime":1280.352,"body":"but now that we're kind of here"},{"startTime":1280.357,"endTime":1283.322,"body":"and the customer's real happy with"},{"startTime":1280.357,"endTime":1283.322,"body":"the solution, like I don't, I think"},{"startTime":1283.322,"endTime":1284.462,"body":"there's more value somewhere else."},{"startTime":1284.462,"endTime":1285.062,"body":"And then just."},{"startTime":1285.737,"endTime":1286.187,"body":"Pivoting."},{"startTime":1287.057,"endTime":1288.017,"body":"Yeah, I certainly agree."},{"startTime":1288.917,"endTime":1295.727,"body":"The trouble with paradigms, it's"},{"startTime":1288.917,"endTime":1295.727,"body":"a shift happens Uh, no, I, I look,"},{"startTime":1295.727,"endTime":1298.692,"body":"it's, it's, it's it's tough to"},{"startTime":1295.727,"endTime":1298.692,"body":"throw away work that you planned."},{"startTime":1298.752,"endTime":1302.382,"body":"It is tough because you feel like"},{"startTime":1298.752,"endTime":1302.382,"body":"you are somehow underperforming."},{"startTime":1302.442,"endTime":1302.812,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1303.042,"endTime":1305.652,"body":"And, and, and that,"},{"startTime":1303.042,"endTime":1305.652,"body":"that mind shift change."},{"startTime":1306.012,"endTime":1306.822,"body":"It's hard."},{"startTime":1306.822,"endTime":1307.842,"body":"It's hard for people."},{"startTime":1308.192,"endTime":1313.112,"body":"Coming from a product background or at"},{"startTime":1308.192,"endTime":1313.112,"body":"least product or product orientation."},{"startTime":1313.112,"endTime":1313.412,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1313.652,"endTime":1315.422,"body":"To say, well, good, enough's good enough."},{"startTime":1315.452,"endTime":1315.572,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1315.752,"endTime":1318.992,"body":"There's something else that we'd"},{"startTime":1315.752,"endTime":1318.992,"body":"rather be working on next, as"},{"startTime":1318.992,"endTime":1322.512,"body":"opposed to, I made a plan, we all"},{"startTime":1318.992,"endTime":1322.512,"body":"made a plan, we all agreed to it."},{"startTime":1322.512,"endTime":1322.712,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1322.792,"endTime":1326.372,"body":"And when we have to execute the"},{"startTime":1322.792,"endTime":1326.372,"body":"plan, the, those two things don't"},{"startTime":1326.372,"endTime":1330.542,"body":"really sit well together and people"},{"startTime":1326.372,"endTime":1330.542,"body":"coming from a project background."},{"startTime":1331.132,"endTime":1332.572,"body":"Sometimes do struggle with that."},{"startTime":1332.602,"endTime":1336.032,"body":"You want to hear the you want to hear"},{"startTime":1332.602,"endTime":1336.032,"body":"my insidious follow up to what you"},{"startTime":1336.032,"endTime":1341.892,"body":"just said, like there are, we talked"},{"startTime":1336.032,"endTime":1341.892,"body":"in the previous buck about blame."},{"startTime":1342.282,"endTime":1342.552,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1343.242,"endTime":1347.862,"body":"And I would be very concerned if I"},{"startTime":1343.242,"endTime":1347.862,"body":"hired somebody like this to work with"},{"startTime":1347.867,"endTime":1350.172,"body":"me, or I would to be one of my peers."},{"startTime":1350.672,"endTime":1354.052,"body":"I would be very concerned about their"},{"startTime":1350.672,"endTime":1354.052,"body":"their influence of the organization,"},{"startTime":1354.052,"endTime":1355.312,"body":"stakeholder management, stuff like that."},{"startTime":1356.164,"endTime":1358.954,"body":"a lot of project managers I've worked"},{"startTime":1356.164,"endTime":1358.954,"body":"with could just be my experience."},{"startTime":1358.954,"endTime":1363.544,"body":"So I'm like, I'm just want to get"},{"startTime":1358.954,"endTime":1363.544,"body":"that little caveat and little star,"},{"startTime":1363.574,"endTime":1368.104,"body":"little asterisks, asterisks out there"},{"startTime":1363.574,"endTime":1368.104,"body":"to say, you know, something doesn't"},{"startTime":1368.104,"endTime":1370.084,"body":"go the way that we plan or whatever."},{"startTime":1370.084,"endTime":1374.054,"body":"And this, these, these people might"},{"startTime":1370.084,"endTime":1374.054,"body":"be out there not saying, what did"},{"startTime":1374.054,"endTime":1377.834,"body":"we learn from this experience that"},{"startTime":1374.054,"endTime":1377.834,"body":"didn't go the way we expected it to."},{"startTime":1378.524,"endTime":1381.354,"body":"And rather say, everyone would've"},{"startTime":1378.524,"endTime":1381.354,"body":"succeeded if it wasn't for"},{"startTime":1381.354,"endTime":1382.734,"body":"those darn kids or whatever."},{"startTime":1382.734,"endTime":1386.754,"body":"Like, my, my evil plan would've"},{"startTime":1382.734,"endTime":1386.754,"body":"succeeded if it wasn't for you Darn kids."},{"startTime":1386.904,"endTime":1387.234,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1387.774,"endTime":1388.164,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1388.164,"endTime":1388.494,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1388.494,"endTime":1391.604,"body":"So that, that, that whole that"},{"startTime":1388.494,"endTime":1391.604,"body":"whole perspective of looking at"},{"startTime":1392.174,"endTime":1397.244,"body":"deviations from the plan and then"},{"startTime":1392.174,"endTime":1397.244,"body":"really looking at blame, right."},{"startTime":1397.304,"endTime":1402.706,"body":"Right Blame and or some sort of"},{"startTime":1397.304,"endTime":1402.706,"body":"penalization of people that you know,"},{"startTime":1402.706,"endTime":1405.466,"body":"somehow underperformed as opposed to."},{"startTime":1406.726,"endTime":1408.916,"body":"Welcome those, those"},{"startTime":1406.726,"endTime":1408.916,"body":"changing requirements."},{"startTime":1408.916,"endTime":1409.246,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1409.276,"endTime":1414.391,"body":"Uh that is completely, I think, contrary"},{"startTime":1409.276,"endTime":1414.391,"body":"to the to the ethos of a project manager."},{"startTime":1414.396,"endTime":1417.081,"body":"They, they have to try hard, I"},{"startTime":1414.396,"endTime":1417.081,"body":"think, to get over that yeah."},{"startTime":1417.131,"endTime":1418.181,"body":"Yeah, like what happens?"},{"startTime":1418.211,"endTime":1420.881,"body":"Uh, if you have teams that, like"},{"startTime":1418.211,"endTime":1420.881,"body":"when you're a project manager and"},{"startTime":1420.886,"endTime":1423.641,"body":"you have teams that miss their"},{"startTime":1420.886,"endTime":1423.641,"body":"deliverables and you have vendors"},{"startTime":1423.641,"endTime":1424.871,"body":"that miss their deliverables and"},{"startTime":1425.451,"endTime":1429.091,"body":"let, let's say that you're a"},{"startTime":1425.451,"endTime":1429.091,"body":"project manager and, um I, I've"},{"startTime":1429.091,"endTime":1432.271,"body":"seen project managers at shops that"},{"startTime":1429.091,"endTime":1432.271,"body":"actually own no development teams."},{"startTime":1432.571,"endTime":1435.661,"body":"They're, they're, they're going to"},{"startTime":1432.571,"endTime":1435.661,"body":"offshore developers and then offshore"},{"startTime":1435.661,"endTime":1439.531,"body":"testers and then other teams to receive"},{"startTime":1435.661,"endTime":1439.531,"body":"it that are like customer teams,"},{"startTime":1439.536,"endTime":1440.941,"body":"u a t customer teams to receive."},{"startTime":1441.061,"endTime":1443.681,"body":"So they're, they truly are"},{"startTime":1441.061,"endTime":1443.681,"body":"like, they're everyone's merc."},{"startTime":1444.091,"endTime":1446.011,"body":"Working for the project"},{"startTime":1444.091,"endTime":1446.011,"body":"manager at that point."},{"startTime":1446.191,"endTime":1447.751,"body":"I've been in those organizations too."},{"startTime":1447.901,"endTime":1451.531,"body":"It's a super scary way to run a"},{"startTime":1447.901,"endTime":1451.531,"body":"business, but also like if somebody"},{"startTime":1451.536,"endTime":1454.636,"body":"misses a and everything shifts."},{"startTime":1455.536,"endTime":1458.716,"body":"Like how do you not like"},{"startTime":1455.536,"endTime":1458.716,"body":"you're gonna do the five why's?"},{"startTime":1458.986,"endTime":1462.736,"body":"Uh, and, but they're always gonna"},{"startTime":1458.986,"endTime":1462.736,"body":"lead back to pointing at people to"},{"startTime":1462.736,"endTime":1466.016,"body":"be like, well, the five why's we"},{"startTime":1462.736,"endTime":1466.016,"body":"failed because this wasn't a hit."},{"startTime":1466.196,"endTime":1467.126,"body":"Why wasn't it hit?"},{"startTime":1467.306,"endTime":1470.216,"body":"No, it wasn't a hit because it's, this"},{"startTime":1467.306,"endTime":1470.216,"body":"thing didn't turn out the way we planned."},{"startTime":1470.216,"endTime":1471.266,"body":"Well, why didn't it turn on a plane?"},{"startTime":1471.266,"endTime":1473.881,"body":"Oh, because you know,"},{"startTime":1471.266,"endTime":1473.881,"body":"because om screwed up."},{"startTime":1474.391,"endTime":1474.901,"body":"Ultimately."},{"startTime":1474.901,"endTime":1475.141,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1475.141,"endTime":1479.431,"body":"Ultimately it all comes down to"},{"startTime":1475.141,"endTime":1479.431,"body":"a person or people and a project"},{"startTime":1479.431,"endTime":1484.606,"body":"manager's kind of mo is going to"},{"startTime":1479.431,"endTime":1484.606,"body":"like I said, penalized people, right?"},{"startTime":1484.606,"endTime":1489.796,"body":"So it, it may be that these people"},{"startTime":1484.606,"endTime":1489.796,"body":"are not performing right, so they"},{"startTime":1489.796,"endTime":1493.216,"body":"write 'em up or they get rid of"},{"startTime":1489.796,"endTime":1493.216,"body":"them in the worst case scenarios."},{"startTime":1493.716,"endTime":1498.936,"body":"So I think that is a real risk from a"},{"startTime":1493.716,"endTime":1498.936,"body":"project manager coming into this realm."},{"startTime":1499.476,"endTime":1504.066,"body":"It, it's, it's hard to embrace this"},{"startTime":1499.476,"endTime":1504.066,"body":"idea that everybody tried the best they"},{"startTime":1504.066,"endTime":1506.196,"body":"could, given the direction that you gave."},{"startTime":1506.286,"endTime":1506.526,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1506.796,"endTime":1508.926,"body":"Now it still comes back maybe to."},{"startTime":1509.661,"endTime":1513.531,"body":"Right, because you gave the"},{"startTime":1509.661,"endTime":1513.531,"body":"direction, but you should treat that."},{"startTime":1514.641,"endTime":1515.631,"body":"A discovery, right?"},{"startTime":1515.631,"endTime":1516.561,"body":"This is what we did."},{"startTime":1516.591,"endTime":1517.461,"body":"Here's how we fail."},{"startTime":1517.461,"endTime":1520.431,"body":"Let's get up, dust ourselves off, move on."},{"startTime":1520.521,"endTime":1520.821,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1520.851,"endTime":1520.911,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1520.911,"endTime":1522.051,"body":"We learn something from that."},{"startTime":1522.051,"endTime":1523.491,"body":"So that's hard."},{"startTime":1523.551,"endTime":1525.441,"body":"That's hard from a project"},{"startTime":1523.551,"endTime":1525.441,"body":"manager's point of view."},{"startTime":1525.561,"endTime":1529.621,"body":"Well, the project manager is not"},{"startTime":1525.561,"endTime":1529.621,"body":"really providing direction in"},{"startTime":1529.621,"endTime":1531.511,"body":"terms of leadership and vision."},{"startTime":1532.231,"endTime":1536.131,"body":"They're quite honestly, I don't really"},{"startTime":1532.231,"endTime":1536.131,"body":"know what they're, they're, they're."},{"startTime":1537.286,"endTime":1542.146,"body":"Providing direction with regard to"},{"startTime":1537.286,"endTime":1542.146,"body":"the plan, I guess um, but the, the,"},{"startTime":1542.206,"endTime":1543.796,"body":"the why, why are we doing this?"},{"startTime":1543.796,"endTime":1547.306,"body":"Like I don't know if a project"},{"startTime":1543.796,"endTime":1547.306,"body":"manager uh, probably the good"},{"startTime":1547.306,"endTime":1549.286,"body":"ones, they do know the why."},{"startTime":1549.526,"endTime":1551.056,"body":"They, they, they do understand it."},{"startTime":1551.061,"endTime":1555.076,"body":"They've, they've made it their business"},{"startTime":1551.061,"endTime":1555.076,"body":"to know the why, but I can think"},{"startTime":1555.081,"endTime":1557.746,"body":"of a lot of project managers I've"},{"startTime":1555.081,"endTime":1557.746,"body":"interfaced with in my career that"},{"startTime":1557.806,"endTime":1559.426,"body":"they don't, they didn't care why."},{"startTime":1559.486,"endTime":1560.986,"body":"Go talk to this person"},{"startTime":1559.486,"endTime":1560.986,"body":"if you wanna know why."},{"startTime":1560.986,"endTime":1561.076,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1561.136,"endTime":1561.556,"body":"That's not my."},{"startTime":1562.441,"endTime":1562.711,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1563.416,"endTime":1563.656,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1563.656,"endTime":1565.576,"body":"And, and those are"},{"startTime":1563.656,"endTime":1565.576,"body":"different skillsets again."},{"startTime":1565.576,"endTime":1565.636,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1565.636,"endTime":1569.426,"body":"You know and I don't know if these are"},{"startTime":1565.636,"endTime":1569.426,"body":"easy to learn cuz you're wired that way."},{"startTime":1569.516,"endTime":1572.156,"body":"Uh if you've been working in"},{"startTime":1569.516,"endTime":1572.156,"body":"project management for a number"},{"startTime":1572.156,"endTime":1573.796,"body":"of years you are wired that way."},{"startTime":1574.216,"endTime":1578.236,"body":"And for you to suddenly leave that"},{"startTime":1574.216,"endTime":1578.236,"body":"and pivot, that's gonna be tough."},{"startTime":1578.626,"endTime":1581.086,"body":"Well again, that goes back to the"},{"startTime":1578.626,"endTime":1581.086,"body":"main category we're talking about now."},{"startTime":1581.091,"endTime":1581.836,"body":"It's mindset."},{"startTime":1581.841,"endTime":1587.656,"body":"Like it's, it might require a mindset like"},{"startTime":1581.841,"endTime":1587.656,"body":"go, go to our episode 100 where we had Ed."},{"startTime":1587.976,"endTime":1589.266,"body":"For Carol Dweck's mindset."},{"startTime":1589.271,"endTime":1589.536,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1589.616,"endTime":1594.066,"body":"And listen to that podcast or watch it,"},{"startTime":1589.616,"endTime":1594.066,"body":"I guess, and listen to that podcast."},{"startTime":1594.096,"endTime":1597.526,"body":"Um, because uh, and or if you don't wanna"},{"startTime":1594.096,"endTime":1597.526,"body":"listen to that podcast, that's okay."},{"startTime":1597.676,"endTime":1600.646,"body":"Like read or download the audiobook"},{"startTime":1597.676,"endTime":1600.646,"body":"or whatever for Carol Dweck's"},{"startTime":1600.646,"endTime":1603.526,"body":"mindset, because that might, that"},{"startTime":1600.646,"endTime":1603.526,"body":"might key you in right there."},{"startTime":1603.526,"endTime":1605.356,"body":"Uh uh, of oh, I've got some."},{"startTime":1606.291,"endTime":1610.201,"body":"Behaviors that are set in concrete that"},{"startTime":1606.291,"endTime":1610.201,"body":"I, I've realized that I now believe that"},{"startTime":1610.201,"endTime":1613.571,"body":"they're set in concrete, that I realize"},{"startTime":1610.201,"endTime":1613.571,"body":"that like, hmm to be successful in"},{"startTime":1613.571,"endTime":1617.631,"body":"this new role, I probably should think"},{"startTime":1613.571,"endTime":1617.631,"body":"about changing if this is the same way."},{"startTime":1618.261,"endTime":1619.071,"body":"yeah, it really is."},{"startTime":1619.071,"endTime":1623.721,"body":"Maybe we'll be kind and provide a"},{"startTime":1619.071,"endTime":1623.721,"body":"link in the section below to the"},{"startTime":1623.771,"endTime":1626.351,"body":"I've been pretty good at that, the"},{"startTime":1623.771,"endTime":1626.351,"body":"last couple podcasts in the editing."},{"startTime":1627.266,"endTime":1629.456,"body":"I even lead the little part in"},{"startTime":1627.266,"endTime":1629.456,"body":"where I'm like, I'll put a link."},{"startTime":1629.456,"endTime":1631.136,"body":"Oh, I'm, I'll just cut it out if I'm lazy."},{"startTime":1632.876,"endTime":1635.126,"body":"I even leave that in because"},{"startTime":1632.876,"endTime":1635.126,"body":"I think it's hilarious."},{"startTime":1635.126,"endTime":1636.926,"body":"I don't care if anyone"},{"startTime":1635.126,"endTime":1636.926,"body":"thinks it's not hilarious."},{"startTime":1636.926,"endTime":1637.766,"body":"I think it's funny."},{"startTime":1638.426,"endTime":1641.066,"body":"we touched on leadership there"},{"startTime":1638.426,"endTime":1641.066,"body":"in that last bullet point"},{"startTime":1641.376,"endTime":1644.696,"body":"leadership versus management the"},{"startTime":1641.376,"endTime":1644.696,"body":"and let me throw this one out."},{"startTime":1645.226,"endTime":1650.226,"body":"As something I think is in a con in, in"},{"startTime":1645.226,"endTime":1650.226,"body":"the, in a, in a drawback is the project"},{"startTime":1650.226,"endTime":1655.416,"body":"manager is squarely in the management"},{"startTime":1650.226,"endTime":1655.416,"body":"category and the product manager is"},{"startTime":1655.416,"endTime":1656.996,"body":"squarely in the leadership category."},{"startTime":1657.246,"endTime":1662.296,"body":"And I don't think, I don't think they"},{"startTime":1657.246,"endTime":1662.296,"body":"work not being in those categories."},{"startTime":1662.386,"endTime":1664.786,"body":"I don't think you can"},{"startTime":1662.386,"endTime":1664.786,"body":"have a product manager."},{"startTime":1665.216,"endTime":1669.296,"body":"Who is a manager, quote manager from"},{"startTime":1665.216,"endTime":1669.296,"body":"the management, like perspective of"},{"startTime":1669.296,"endTime":1671.876,"body":"manager, I guess I, unless you're"},{"startTime":1669.296,"endTime":1671.876,"body":"in a feature factory, I guess."},{"startTime":1672.296,"endTime":1673.586,"body":"Yeah, I was gonna say it."},{"startTime":1673.586,"endTime":1675.356,"body":"There is some context there as well."},{"startTime":1675.356,"endTime":1675.626,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1675.626,"endTime":1680.066,"body":"So overall I'd concur with"},{"startTime":1675.626,"endTime":1680.066,"body":"that, but I'm sure you can find"},{"startTime":1680.066,"endTime":1681.686,"body":"edge cases in either scenarios."},{"startTime":1681.691,"endTime":1681.776,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1681.776,"endTime":1686.326,"body":"Right but, but I think the first"},{"startTime":1681.776,"endTime":1686.326,"body":"point you made about project managers,"},{"startTime":1687.151,"endTime":1688.951,"body":"Management as opposed to leaders."},{"startTime":1688.951,"endTime":1690.751,"body":"It's probably pretty"},{"startTime":1688.951,"endTime":1690.751,"body":"accurate, I would say."},{"startTime":1690.961,"endTime":1694.771,"body":"You don't gain leadership"},{"startTime":1690.961,"endTime":1694.771,"body":"skills in that sense."},{"startTime":1694.951,"endTime":1698.541,"body":"What you gain is skills that"},{"startTime":1694.951,"endTime":1698.541,"body":"are directorial in nature."},{"startTime":1698.541,"endTime":1702.191,"body":"You, you're actually demanding"},{"startTime":1698.541,"endTime":1702.191,"body":"things from people so much whereas"},{"startTime":1702.191,"endTime":1703.841,"body":"a leader doesn't do that, right?"},{"startTime":1703.841,"endTime":1707.741,"body":"A leader empowers people and"},{"startTime":1703.841,"endTime":1707.741,"body":"sets them up for, for success and"},{"startTime":1707.741,"endTime":1709.191,"body":"then gets out of the way, right?"},{"startTime":1709.241,"endTime":1712.211,"body":"Um, that's not necessarily true of."},{"startTime":1713.316,"endTime":1714.036,"body":"Project managers."},{"startTime":1714.036,"endTime":1717.996,"body":"Now, some are very good they've taken"},{"startTime":1714.036,"endTime":1717.996,"body":"the time and trouble to, to hone those"},{"startTime":1717.996,"endTime":1719.556,"body":"skills and they're, they're very good."},{"startTime":1719.976,"endTime":1722.596,"body":"But for the most part I don't"},{"startTime":1719.976,"endTime":1722.596,"body":"think you're gonna find that."},{"startTime":1722.656,"endTime":1723.176,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1723.256,"endTime":1728.441,"body":"The other side of the coin product folks"},{"startTime":1723.256,"endTime":1728.441,"body":"being more leadership oriented people."},{"startTime":1728.531,"endTime":1728.591,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1728.861,"endTime":1730.481,"body":"I could say again the same thing."},{"startTime":1730.481,"endTime":1733.451,"body":"Majority of the time, you're probably"},{"startTime":1730.481,"endTime":1733.451,"body":"right, but you could have some"},{"startTime":1733.451,"endTime":1737.471,"body":"rookies that come up and possibly"},{"startTime":1733.451,"endTime":1737.471,"body":"struggle to be leaders unless."},{"startTime":1739.096,"endTime":1743.326,"body":"Acted in a leadership capacity"},{"startTime":1739.096,"endTime":1743.326,"body":"elsewhere or be outside of this domain."},{"startTime":1743.326,"endTime":1743.506,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1743.506,"endTime":1746.546,"body":"Oh, I, I was gonna say, if you're"},{"startTime":1743.506,"endTime":1746.546,"body":"gonna force me into , the con on this"},{"startTime":1746.546,"endTime":1750.386,"body":"one for like against product managers"},{"startTime":1746.546,"endTime":1750.386,"body":"in, in the category, they should be"},{"startTime":1750.386,"endTime":1752.546,"body":"good at, all of the product manager."},{"startTime":1753.066,"endTime":1758.566,"body":"Who you know it's the wake, wake up"},{"startTime":1753.066,"endTime":1758.566,"body":"at 10 o'clock and take the bus into"},{"startTime":1758.566,"endTime":1761.926,"body":"work or into like the private bus"},{"startTime":1758.566,"endTime":1761.926,"body":"and have their juices and have a sit"},{"startTime":1761.926,"endTime":1765.986,"body":"on the rooftop bar until noon and do"},{"startTime":1761.926,"endTime":1765.986,"body":"exactly 15 minutes of work or whatever."},{"startTime":1765.986,"endTime":1770.276,"body":"Like these, these people like advertising"},{"startTime":1765.986,"endTime":1770.276,"body":"their life at Meta or Facebook, whatever."},{"startTime":1770.331,"endTime":1773.991,"body":"The people that I think in product"},{"startTime":1770.331,"endTime":1773.991,"body":"management that are more like managers"},{"startTime":1774.381,"endTime":1778.041,"body":"are the people that are kind of"},{"startTime":1774.381,"endTime":1778.041,"body":"separated directly from their team."},{"startTime":1778.046,"endTime":1779.451,"body":"They don't do discovery with their team."},{"startTime":1779.931,"endTime":1783.901,"body":"They don't do you know, writings the"},{"startTime":1779.931,"endTime":1783.901,"body":"stories and breaking work down and"},{"startTime":1783.901,"endTime":1785.191,"body":"talking through, work with their team."},{"startTime":1785.371,"endTime":1789.031,"body":"They kind of, they sit with an engineering"},{"startTime":1785.371,"endTime":1789.031,"body":"manager or somebody like that, and"},{"startTime":1789.031,"endTime":1791.731,"body":"then they talk to them, and then the"},{"startTime":1789.031,"endTime":1791.731,"body":"engineering manager goes and plays"},{"startTime":1791.736,"endTime":1795.421,"body":"buffer to the team and, or, or maybe"},{"startTime":1791.736,"endTime":1795.421,"body":"the, maybe the engineering manager."},{"startTime":1795.651,"endTime":1798.171,"body":"Works with an offshore team to"},{"startTime":1795.651,"endTime":1798.171,"body":"punch stuff out, and then the"},{"startTime":1798.521,"endTime":1800.811,"body":"engineering manager presents the"},{"startTime":1798.521,"endTime":1800.811,"body":"work back to the product manager."},{"startTime":1800.811,"endTime":1805.311,"body":"So like in that instance, you're kind"},{"startTime":1800.811,"endTime":1805.311,"body":"of like a manager in that, in that you"},{"startTime":1805.311,"endTime":1809.121,"body":"really are, you're not, you're really"},{"startTime":1805.311,"endTime":1809.121,"body":"not leading from the front in that case."},{"startTime":1809.121,"endTime":1809.181,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1809.181,"endTime":1809.361,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1809.361,"endTime":1812.601,"body":"You're not with your teams, you're"},{"startTime":1809.361,"endTime":1812.601,"body":"not with the customer in that example."},{"startTime":1812.601,"endTime":1812.921,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1813.066,"endTime":1816.336,"body":"So what I hear at that point, you're"},{"startTime":1813.066,"endTime":1816.336,"body":"not really a leader at that point."},{"startTime":1816.336,"endTime":1816.636,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1817.026,"endTime":1821.856,"body":"And I'd argue you're probably closer"},{"startTime":1817.026,"endTime":1821.856,"body":"that stage to becoming a, or not"},{"startTime":1821.856,"endTime":1825.746,"body":"becoming, but closer to that person,"},{"startTime":1821.856,"endTime":1825.746,"body":"which the product the project"},{"startTime":1825.751,"endTime":1827.966,"body":"manager would be in that same role."},{"startTime":1827.996,"endTime":1828.146,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1828.296,"endTime":1830.456,"body":"Because even though you came"},{"startTime":1828.296,"endTime":1830.456,"body":"from different backgrounds,"},{"startTime":1831.456,"endTime":1832.296,"body":"You're, you're there."},{"startTime":1832.296,"endTime":1832.986,"body":"You're right there."},{"startTime":1833.166,"endTime":1833.316,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1833.406,"endTime":1835.026,"body":"In management squarely, right?"},{"startTime":1835.056,"endTime":1837.096,"body":"Um, so yeah, I agree with that"},{"startTime":1837.756,"endTime":1841.326,"body":"this doesn't really fit into any of the"},{"startTime":1837.756,"endTime":1841.326,"body":"categories, so I'm gonna bring it up here."},{"startTime":1841.326,"endTime":1841.806,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1841.806,"endTime":1845.106,"body":"At the end of talking about leadership,"},{"startTime":1841.806,"endTime":1845.106,"body":"like there's a whole marketing"},{"startTime":1845.106,"endTime":1848.831,"body":"component and like a, a growth"},{"startTime":1845.106,"endTime":1848.831,"body":"component of any product manager."},{"startTime":1848.831,"endTime":1851.471,"body":"Like when you, when you're, when"},{"startTime":1848.831,"endTime":1851.471,"body":"your product is in growth mode as"},{"startTime":1851.471,"endTime":1854.471,"body":"opposed to your product being in"},{"startTime":1851.471,"endTime":1854.471,"body":"sustained mode or sunset mode, right?"},{"startTime":1854.651,"endTime":1857.781,"body":"When your product is in growth mode"},{"startTime":1854.651,"endTime":1857.781,"body":"there's a set of activities that."},{"startTime":1858.606,"endTime":1861.156,"body":"Project manager would find, um"},{"startTime":1862.026,"endTime":1865.986,"body":"would find that they've never really"},{"startTime":1862.026,"endTime":1865.986,"body":"been exposed to like for example"},{"startTime":1866.036,"endTime":1869.641,"body":"trying to experiment to get retention"},{"startTime":1866.036,"endTime":1869.641,"body":"or experiment to get, you know uh,"},{"startTime":1869.661,"endTime":1874.851,"body":"acquisition of customers or stuff like,"},{"startTime":1869.661,"endTime":1874.851,"body":"it's almost like a marketing side to"},{"startTime":1874.851,"endTime":1878.841,"body":"the job role that maybe they've never"},{"startTime":1874.851,"endTime":1878.841,"body":"done, they've never had to do before."},{"startTime":1879.756,"endTime":1883.226,"body":"Drumming up excitement and drumming"},{"startTime":1879.756,"endTime":1883.226,"body":"up uh, support out outside of the."},{"startTime":1883.686,"endTime":1884.176,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1884.666,"endTime":1885.866,"body":"Yeah, I think you're right."},{"startTime":1885.866,"endTime":1887.486,"body":"So a community building aspect as well."},{"startTime":1887.486,"endTime":1887.636,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1887.726,"endTime":1888.026,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1888.026,"endTime":1892.646,"body":"So project managers they really"},{"startTime":1888.026,"endTime":1892.646,"body":"haven't been exposed in that way to"},{"startTime":1892.646,"endTime":1894.606,"body":"potential customers and so forth."},{"startTime":1894.936,"endTime":1897.036,"body":"Work has been given to them."},{"startTime":1897.306,"endTime":1898.076,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1898.206,"endTime":1898.956,"body":"Taken to them."},{"startTime":1898.961,"endTime":1903.366,"body":"I guess the other way is, yeah, you,"},{"startTime":1898.961,"endTime":1903.366,"body":"you go figure out is there a market?"},{"startTime":1903.396,"endTime":1903.726,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1903.726,"endTime":1904.596,"body":"How big is it?"},{"startTime":1904.656,"endTime":1905.736,"body":"Is there an appetite?"},{"startTime":1905.766,"endTime":1907.956,"body":"Yes but, but fundamentally, I think."},{"startTime":1908.496,"endTime":1911.086,"body":"The divide, if you will"},{"startTime":1908.496,"endTime":1911.086,"body":"perhaps that's a strong word."},{"startTime":1911.656,"endTime":1917.426,"body":"Maybe not the, the divide is project"},{"startTime":1911.656,"endTime":1917.426,"body":"managers know about a project life cycle."},{"startTime":1917.486,"endTime":1917.576,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1917.576,"endTime":1919.136,"body":"They don't know about"},{"startTime":1917.576,"endTime":1919.136,"body":"a product life cycle."},{"startTime":1919.136,"endTime":1919.376,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1919.376,"endTime":1919.616,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1919.646,"endTime":1920.406,"body":"Right most."},{"startTime":1921.306,"endTime":1926.216,"body":"Product folk know about obviously the"},{"startTime":1921.306,"endTime":1926.216,"body":"product life cycle and, and you could"},{"startTime":1926.216,"endTime":1930.626,"body":"argue that it's not a stretch for"},{"startTime":1926.216,"endTime":1930.626,"body":"them to get to grips with a project"},{"startTime":1930.626,"endTime":1934.226,"body":"life cycle because it dovetails"},{"startTime":1930.626,"endTime":1934.226,"body":"in with the pro life cycle anyway."},{"startTime":1934.276,"endTime":1937.456,"body":"so that, that I think is a nuance"},{"startTime":1934.276,"endTime":1937.456,"body":"there between the two roles."},{"startTime":1937.506,"endTime":1941.736,"body":"I'm gonna jump to the last category"},{"startTime":1937.506,"endTime":1941.736,"body":"which is when people tell me doesn't now"},{"startTime":1941.736,"endTime":1944.526,"body":"we're not talking about project manager,"},{"startTime":1941.736,"endTime":1944.526,"body":"we're talking about pretty much anyone."},{"startTime":1944.646,"endTime":1949.056,"body":"When people tell me they wanna be a"},{"startTime":1944.646,"endTime":1949.056,"body":"product manager I tell them there's really"},{"startTime":1949.056,"endTime":1955.606,"body":"only two ways to enter there is you start"},{"startTime":1949.056,"endTime":1955.606,"body":"with product management experience and the"},{"startTime":1955.606,"endTime":1958.726,"body":"understanding of how to build products and"},{"startTime":1955.606,"endTime":1958.726,"body":"how to do discovery and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1959.206,"endTime":1966.096,"body":"Or you start with being an expert in"},{"startTime":1959.206,"endTime":1966.096,"body":"a domain and then you go learn how"},{"startTime":1966.126,"endTime":1969.416,"body":"to build great products and interface"},{"startTime":1966.126,"endTime":1969.416,"body":"with development teams and work, work"},{"startTime":1969.416,"endTime":1970.466,"body":"through requirements, stuff like that."},{"startTime":1971.096,"endTime":1975.521,"body":"But you have to have one or the other to"},{"startTime":1971.096,"endTime":1975.521,"body":"get picked up as a product manager but"},{"startTime":1975.521,"endTime":1980.531,"body":"starting with neither of those, neither"},{"startTime":1975.521,"endTime":1980.531,"body":"understanding how to build products like"},{"startTime":1980.561,"endTime":1984.851,"body":"you've never been on with, with or on"},{"startTime":1980.561,"endTime":1984.851,"body":"development teams and not understanding"},{"startTime":1984.851,"endTime":1989.711,"body":"and being an expert in a business domain,"},{"startTime":1984.851,"endTime":1989.711,"body":"you're really starting way behind."},{"startTime":1989.716,"endTime":1992.621,"body":"And that, that, that's, this is the,"},{"startTime":1989.716,"endTime":1992.621,"body":"probably the biggest, I say it here for"},{"startTime":1992.626,"endTime":1995.831,"body":"last because this is probably the biggest"},{"startTime":1992.626,"endTime":1995.831,"body":"thing in my opinion, and probably a lot"},{"startTime":1995.831,"endTime":1999.431,"body":"of other product managers that would"},{"startTime":1995.831,"endTime":1999.431,"body":"listen to this is, would probably label"},{"startTime":1999.431,"endTime":2002.881,"body":"this as the number one thing is if you"},{"startTime":1999.431,"endTime":2002.881,"body":"don't have either side of this equation,"},{"startTime":2002.881,"endTime":2004.231,"body":"it's gonna be very difficult to break."},{"startTime":2004.891,"endTime":2005.851,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2005.851,"endTime":2010.191,"body":"A absolutely true those are the primary"},{"startTime":2005.851,"endTime":2010.191,"body":"pathways into I think, this profession."},{"startTime":2010.191,"endTime":2010.491,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2010.941,"endTime":2013.911,"body":"If you don't have those two,"},{"startTime":2010.941,"endTime":2013.911,"body":"it, like you said, you come"},{"startTime":2013.916,"endTime":2015.181,"body":"in, you don't know the domain."},{"startTime":2015.651,"endTime":2015.981,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2015.981,"endTime":2018.921,"body":"You don't have that mindset"},{"startTime":2015.981,"endTime":2018.921,"body":"of experimentation, et cetera."},{"startTime":2019.191,"endTime":2020.211,"body":"How do you break in?"},{"startTime":2020.551,"endTime":2024.391,"body":"I'm just wondering now, kind of as, as"},{"startTime":2020.551,"endTime":2024.391,"body":"we're talking through this, is there"},{"startTime":2024.931,"endTime":2031.051,"body":"maybe an ancillary pathway here, which"},{"startTime":2024.931,"endTime":2031.051,"body":"is you work as a product owner, you could"},{"startTime":2031.051,"endTime":2034.021,"body":"come from the development side of the,"},{"startTime":2031.051,"endTime":2034.021,"body":"so at least you still have development"},{"startTime":2034.021,"endTime":2035.701,"body":"type of background and, and the domain."},{"startTime":2035.701,"endTime":2038.911,"body":"So I guess it's the same thing"},{"startTime":2035.701,"endTime":2038.911,"body":"now I do want to talk about."},{"startTime":2040.111,"endTime":2046.921,"body":"We say domain, but it doesn't have to be"},{"startTime":2040.111,"endTime":2046.921,"body":"your specific product domain necessarily."},{"startTime":2047.251,"endTime":2051.991,"body":"What I'm saying is if you know about what"},{"startTime":2047.251,"endTime":2051.991,"body":"products are, how to build those mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2052.801,"endTime":2056.011,"body":"You could relate that"},{"startTime":2052.801,"endTime":2056.011,"body":"experience with another product."},{"startTime":2056.131,"endTime":2056.251,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2056.521,"endTime":2058.891,"body":"So it doesn't have to be the same thing."},{"startTime":2058.981,"endTime":2062.221,"body":"Like you worked in, let's say,"},{"startTime":2058.981,"endTime":2062.221,"body":"a cosmetic company, right?"},{"startTime":2062.521,"endTime":2062.641,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2062.641,"endTime":2066.361,"body":"To get away from software for a bit you"},{"startTime":2062.641,"endTime":2066.361,"body":"could still, those skills are relat."},{"startTime":2066.766,"endTime":2068.106,"body":"To any other industry."},{"startTime":2068.106,"endTime":2068.386,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2068.466,"endTime":2072.916,"body":"You could go to a a detergent manufacturer"},{"startTime":2068.466,"endTime":2072.916,"body":"or whatever, clothing company."},{"startTime":2073.096,"endTime":2074.536,"body":"This, these are all products."},{"startTime":2074.541,"endTime":2078.466,"body":"So if you have a product orientation,"},{"startTime":2074.541,"endTime":2078.466,"body":"product mindset, you can apply"},{"startTime":2078.466,"endTime":2083.086,"body":"those, those those skills in any of"},{"startTime":2078.466,"endTime":2083.086,"body":"these, I'm calling them domains now."},{"startTime":2083.266,"endTime":2085.986,"body":"Mm-hmm so I think those are"},{"startTime":2083.266,"endTime":2085.986,"body":"relatable skills but if you"},{"startTime":2085.986,"endTime":2087.186,"body":"hadn't, if you didn't have."},{"startTime":2087.981,"endTime":2090.381,"body":"Well, what, what, what, what,"},{"startTime":2087.981,"endTime":2090.381,"body":"what are those skills before"},{"startTime":2090.386,"endTime":2091.341,"body":"we move off of this topic?"},{"startTime":2091.391,"endTime":2096.161,"body":"I think those skills are like a, a"},{"startTime":2091.391,"endTime":2096.161,"body":"good, a good feeling about like vertical"},{"startTime":2096.161,"endTime":2098.261,"body":"slicing, like breaking work down."},{"startTime":2098.261,"endTime":2103.356,"body":"Like what, what a story might be, , how to"},{"startTime":2098.261,"endTime":2103.356,"body":"kind of phrase or reword like air quotes,"},{"startTime":2103.356,"endTime":2104.586,"body":"requirements, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2104.586,"endTime":2107.346,"body":"Like, like ba type of skills,"},{"startTime":2104.586,"endTime":2107.346,"body":"like a lot of that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2107.346,"endTime":2111.016,"body":"Also, like if you're gonna get"},{"startTime":2107.346,"endTime":2111.016,"body":"past that to say like, working with"},{"startTime":2111.021,"endTime":2114.196,"body":"technology to actually implement"},{"startTime":2111.021,"endTime":2114.196,"body":"things like that, that could be it too."},{"startTime":2114.376,"endTime":2118.306,"body":"Like a lot of the things that I, I"},{"startTime":2114.376,"endTime":2118.306,"body":"ascribe to product management or e even"},{"startTime":2118.306,"endTime":2121.966,"body":"if we got outta the technical domain"},{"startTime":2118.306,"endTime":2121.966,"body":"and we just back up a second, the"},{"startTime":2122.386,"endTime":2124.576,"body":"empiricism about, I'm gonna try something."},{"startTime":2125.371,"endTime":2126.931,"body":"I'm gonna see the results."},{"startTime":2126.991,"endTime":2130.091,"body":"I'm gonna act on the results, change"},{"startTime":2126.991,"endTime":2130.091,"body":"my way, go forward, even if you"},{"startTime":2130.091,"endTime":2131.501,"body":"don't even have a software product."},{"startTime":2132.001,"endTime":2137.011,"body":"And we, and we are just trying to"},{"startTime":2132.001,"endTime":2137.011,"body":"do something to find the way that"},{"startTime":2137.011,"endTime":2140.011,"body":"the, you can still apply a lot of"},{"startTime":2137.011,"endTime":2140.011,"body":"that product thinking that, that the"},{"startTime":2140.011,"endTime":2141.781,"body":"continuous discovery type of thinking."},{"startTime":2142.281,"endTime":2145.611,"body":"But then I load on top of that"},{"startTime":2142.281,"endTime":2145.611,"body":"with product management skill."},{"startTime":2145.611,"endTime":2149.741,"body":"When I say product management I'm, I'm"},{"startTime":2145.611,"endTime":2149.741,"body":"loading down all the, the, the business"},{"startTime":2149.741,"endTime":2152.931,"body":"analysis skillset and the product"},{"startTime":2149.741,"endTime":2152.931,"body":"development skillset but, but the"},{"startTime":2152.931,"endTime":2154.911,"body":"basics of like, why are tests important?"},{"startTime":2155.061,"endTime":2158.421,"body":"What is the difference between te, what's"},{"startTime":2155.061,"endTime":2158.421,"body":"a unit test, what's an integration test?"},{"startTime":2158.601,"endTime":2158.931,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2158.931,"endTime":2160.101,"body":"Where should you apply those?"},{"startTime":2160.131,"endTime":2161.181,"body":"How much time should you put in?"},{"startTime":2161.361,"endTime":2164.691,"body":"Or what phases your product"},{"startTime":2161.361,"endTime":2164.691,"body":"in and sunset is in, whatever."},{"startTime":2164.991,"endTime":2166.511,"body":"I know I'm rambling now, but no."},{"startTime":2166.751,"endTime":2168.641,"body":"All of those are essential skills really."},{"startTime":2168.641,"endTime":2172.151,"body":"That's, that's different than, than"},{"startTime":2168.641,"endTime":2172.151,"body":"completely understanding a business."},{"startTime":2173.111,"endTime":2173.471,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2173.561,"endTime":2173.741,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2173.771,"endTime":2174.041,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2174.101,"endTime":2175.691,"body":"So those are relatable too, right?"},{"startTime":2175.691,"endTime":2178.871,"body":"In your example, they were software,"},{"startTime":2175.691,"endTime":2178.871,"body":"but yeah, they, they're relatable too."},{"startTime":2179.471,"endTime":2184.006,"body":"This idea of having that experimentation"},{"startTime":2179.471,"endTime":2184.006,"body":"mindset, right and also the idea of"},{"startTime":2184.096,"endTime":2186.556,"body":"empathizing with the customer their needs."},{"startTime":2186.556,"endTime":2190.516,"body":"Yeah even concepts like"},{"startTime":2186.556,"endTime":2190.516,"body":"personas, for instance, right?"},{"startTime":2190.906,"endTime":2191.356,"body":"The Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":2191.356,"endTime":2192.526,"body":"You know, who, who are you building it?"},{"startTime":2193.251,"endTime":2195.351,"body":"And then figuring out"},{"startTime":2193.251,"endTime":2195.351,"body":"why, what are their needs?"},{"startTime":2195.501,"endTime":2197.906,"body":"Yes how do they use your product,"},{"startTime":2195.501,"endTime":2197.906,"body":"when do they use your product?"},{"startTime":2197.906,"endTime":2198.716,"body":"All of those things."},{"startTime":2198.721,"endTime":2198.876,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2198.956,"endTime":2204.146,"body":"Th those skills are relatable,"},{"startTime":2198.956,"endTime":2204.146,"body":"I believe, from one product to"},{"startTime":2204.151,"endTime":2205.796,"body":"a completely different product."},{"startTime":2205.826,"endTime":2205.916,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2206.321,"endTime":2206.516,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2206.521,"endTime":2207.296,"body":"It's still a product."},{"startTime":2207.386,"endTime":2211.226,"body":"Mm-hmm so you didn't have those,"},{"startTime":2207.386,"endTime":2211.226,"body":"and you didn't come from a, a, a"},{"startTime":2212.116,"endTime":2214.256,"body":"now narrow, now a narrow focus."},{"startTime":2214.261,"endTime":2214.436,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2214.436,"endTime":2216.396,"body":"So the domain in which you're working."},{"startTime":2216.401,"endTime":2216.606,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2216.686,"endTime":2217.646,"body":"Technical domain perhaps."},{"startTime":2217.646,"endTime":2217.886,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2218.016,"endTime":2219.156,"body":"If you didn't have those two, you'd."},{"startTime":2219.901,"endTime":2221.161,"body":"I would see pretty much"},{"startTime":2221.601,"endTime":2226.921,"body":"I almost wonder what if we if there's"},{"startTime":2221.601,"endTime":2226.921,"body":"a way to boil when I say domain"},{"startTime":2226.921,"endTime":2230.721,"body":"expertise, like that might go over"},{"startTime":2226.921,"endTime":2230.721,"body":"some people's heads and be,  I mean,"},{"startTime":2230.726,"endTime":2237.531,"body":"it, it, it's like if I worked as"},{"startTime":2230.726,"endTime":2237.531,"body":"a accountant for 10 years, Right."},{"startTime":2237.531,"endTime":2237.851,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2237.936,"endTime":2242.781,"body":"Doing taxes, keeping people's books, stuff"},{"startTime":2237.936,"endTime":2242.781,"body":"like that and then I move into telling"},{"startTime":2242.781,"endTime":2245.151,"body":"people how to write accounting software."},{"startTime":2245.841,"endTime":2250.881,"body":"I'm gonna have a deep, deep expertise"},{"startTime":2245.841,"endTime":2250.881,"body":"when I talk it's gonna be from direct"},{"startTime":2250.886,"endTime":2256.261,"body":"experience, and I'm gonna be able to"},{"startTime":2250.886,"endTime":2256.261,"body":"go super deep into nuance when, when"},{"startTime":2256.261,"endTime":2260.261,"body":"question Now that that doesn't excuse"},{"startTime":2256.261,"endTime":2260.261,"body":"that I still need to be interviewing users"},{"startTime":2260.261,"endTime":2265.751,"body":"and, and stuff like that, but there is"},{"startTime":2260.261,"endTime":2265.751,"body":"a deep, deep empathy for the users that"},{"startTime":2265.781,"endTime":2269.561,"body":"otherwise would be impossible to replicate"},{"startTime":2270.171,"endTime":2272.841,"body":"and yeah, I agree and that"},{"startTime":2270.171,"endTime":2272.841,"body":"would have a direct bearing on."},{"startTime":2273.606,"endTime":2275.856,"body":"Your ability to synthesize a product."},{"startTime":2275.856,"endTime":2276.216,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2276.221,"endTime":2277.566,"body":"And and to navigate value, I think."},{"startTime":2277.626,"endTime":2278.256,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2278.256,"endTime":2279.126,"body":"Yes, I agree."},{"startTime":2279.216,"endTime":2279.726,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2280.056,"endTime":2281.106,"body":"Yeah, that's very true."},{"startTime":2281.316,"endTime":2284.666,"body":"So what, what do you think about"},{"startTime":2281.316,"endTime":2284.666,"body":"this idea that you know, somebody"},{"startTime":2284.671,"endTime":2290.586,"body":"from a a, a brand newly minted MBA in"},{"startTime":2284.671,"endTime":2290.586,"body":"marketing comes out and gets installed"},{"startTime":2290.586,"endTime":2292.506,"body":"as a product manager in a Sure."},{"startTime":2292.941,"endTime":2293.391,"body":"Company."},{"startTime":2293.491,"endTime":2298.491,"body":"How, how, how does somebody like that"},{"startTime":2293.491,"endTime":2298.491,"body":"fare with Yes, they're armed with an mba,"},{"startTime":2298.521,"endTime":2300.891,"body":"but they don't have domain knowledge."},{"startTime":2300.891,"endTime":2303.741,"body":"They don't have the product"},{"startTime":2300.891,"endTime":2303.741,"body":"orientations, I call it, in their"},{"startTime":2303.741,"endTime":2306.501,"body":"mind, how do they fare in the industry?"},{"startTime":2306.501,"endTime":2308.461,"body":"I, I've actually seen one case of."},{"startTime":2309.021,"endTime":2311.001,"body":"This in real life."},{"startTime":2311.001,"endTime":2312.921,"body":"Years and years ago, I"},{"startTime":2311.001,"endTime":2312.921,"body":"didn't talk about this."},{"startTime":2312.921,"endTime":2316.161,"body":"I was a franchisee mm-hmm"},{"startTime":2312.921,"endTime":2316.161,"body":"of a, a food business."},{"startTime":2316.161,"endTime":2321.791,"body":"And the, the marketing person was a 27"},{"startTime":2316.161,"endTime":2321.791,"body":"year old newly minted Stanford, M B a."},{"startTime":2322.406,"endTime":2327.146,"body":"This went out for about six months"},{"startTime":2322.406,"endTime":2327.146,"body":"and then he was gone some of the"},{"startTime":2327.146,"endTime":2330.596,"body":"direction that we were receiving had"},{"startTime":2327.146,"endTime":2330.596,"body":"us scratching our heads thinking,"},{"startTime":2330.601,"endTime":2334.016,"body":"does this person really know what"},{"startTime":2330.601,"endTime":2334.016,"body":"we're doing, who our customers are?"},{"startTime":2334.416,"endTime":2337.506,"body":"so that, that's just one"},{"startTime":2334.416,"endTime":2337.506,"body":"example, ed equals one."},{"startTime":2337.506,"endTime":2337.896,"body":"I get it."},{"startTime":2337.901,"endTime":2341.736,"body":"But you know, I, I, I think people"},{"startTime":2337.901,"endTime":2341.736,"body":"will fail if they don't have one or"},{"startTime":2341.736,"endTime":2343.536,"body":"the other as we started with that."},{"startTime":2343.686,"endTime":2345.561,"body":"Right you, you need one or the other."},{"startTime":2345.561,"endTime":2346.101,"body":"And I think."},{"startTime":2346.701,"endTime":2350.091,"body":"Most of the time, I'd say you'd lean"},{"startTime":2346.701,"endTime":2350.091,"body":"on the side of having that product"},{"startTime":2350.091,"endTime":2355.401,"body":"mindset is being more important than"},{"startTime":2350.091,"endTime":2355.401,"body":"having specific niche domain knowledge,"},{"startTime":2355.401,"endTime":2359.031,"body":"cuz that can be acquired or you can"},{"startTime":2355.401,"endTime":2359.031,"body":"work with people that have that."},{"startTime":2359.031,"endTime":2359.421,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2359.721,"endTime":2360.021,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2360.021,"endTime":2362.661,"body":"But if you're a product person"},{"startTime":2360.021,"endTime":2362.661,"body":"and you don't have that product"},{"startTime":2362.666,"endTime":2365.001,"body":"mindset, how are you gonna succeed?"},{"startTime":2365.706,"endTime":2366.096,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2366.366,"endTime":2367.656,"body":"Well, I mean, there we go."},{"startTime":2367.656,"endTime":2371.356,"body":"You just, you just put the capstone"},{"startTime":2367.656,"endTime":2371.356,"body":"on the end of our doctoral disserta."},{"startTime":2371.386,"endTime":2375.176,"body":"I mean, we're, we're not, we're not"},{"startTime":2371.386,"endTime":2375.176,"body":"Stanford MBAs or anything, but you know,"},{"startTime":2375.226,"endTime":2378.506,"body":"Hey, but if you can you know, if"},{"startTime":2375.226,"endTime":2378.506,"body":"you can think of other ways to"},{"startTime":2378.506,"endTime":2382.556,"body":"succeed as a a product person from"},{"startTime":2378.506,"endTime":2382.556,"body":"different backgrounds to let us know."},{"startTime":2383.396,"endTime":2385.766,"body":"Oh, I, I thought you were gonna"},{"startTime":2383.396,"endTime":2385.766,"body":"say, if, if you're a Stanford"},{"startTime":2385.766,"endTime":2386.846,"body":"mba, please let us know."},{"startTime":2387.086,"endTime":2387.746,"body":"Yeah, that too."}]}