{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.849,"body":"I'm working is a product owner now,"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.849,"body":"and I told somebody this recently."},{"startTime":2.854,"endTime":4.409,"body":"I don't remember, I don't"},{"startTime":2.854,"endTime":4.409,"body":"remember who it was."},{"startTime":5.399,"endTime":6.869,"body":"I, I'm trying to remember who it was."},{"startTime":7.369,"endTime":11.469,"body":"Oh, it was on the, it was on the,"},{"startTime":7.369,"endTime":11.469,"body":"the, the, the lean beer call."},{"startTime":11.499,"endTime":11.979,"body":"That's what it was."},{"startTime":11.979,"endTime":14.939,"body":"It was like, I'm working as"},{"startTime":11.979,"endTime":14.939,"body":"a product owner now and I'm"},{"startTime":14.939,"endTime":16.409,"body":"like, oh, this is for me."},{"startTime":16.909,"endTime":19.099,"body":"I was like, this the product ownership."},{"startTime":19.104,"endTime":20.359,"body":"Product ownership, yeah."},{"startTime":20.389,"endTime":21.799,"body":"Is that even called that ownership?"},{"startTime":21.889,"endTime":22.069,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":22.119,"endTime":26.354,"body":"Like I was like, this is for me"},{"startTime":22.119,"endTime":26.354,"body":"because like as a scrum master"},{"startTime":26.854,"endTime":30.754,"body":"you have to deal with, I mean, I"},{"startTime":26.854,"endTime":30.754,"body":"think of how to put this, I didn't"},{"startTime":30.754,"endTime":33.794,"body":"think of how to, I mean, I haven't"},{"startTime":30.754,"endTime":33.794,"body":"really like expressed this out loud."},{"startTime":34.519,"endTime":37.909,"body":"Since I started this position,"},{"startTime":34.519,"endTime":37.909,"body":"like as a scrum master, you have"},{"startTime":37.909,"endTime":41.539,"body":"to deal with like, you have to"},{"startTime":37.909,"endTime":41.539,"body":"know how to do product ownership."},{"startTime":41.869,"endTime":43.669,"body":"You have to know how to"},{"startTime":41.869,"endTime":43.669,"body":"be a good team member."},{"startTime":44.029,"endTime":44.629,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":44.689,"endTime":47.149,"body":"You have to know like the duties"},{"startTime":44.689,"endTime":47.149,"body":"of a scrum and then you have to do"},{"startTime":47.149,"endTime":52.033,"body":"like a bunch of other duties like"},{"startTime":47.149,"endTime":52.033,"body":"being a good mentor being a friend"},{"startTime":52.033,"endTime":53.653,"body":"occasionally, that kind of stuff, right?"},{"startTime":53.713,"endTime":53.833,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":53.833,"endTime":57.493,"body":"You don't really have to do that as"},{"startTime":53.833,"endTime":57.493,"body":"a product counter in my, you don't,"},{"startTime":57.493,"endTime":58.843,"body":"but you have other challenges, right?"},{"startTime":58.843,"endTime":60.913,"body":"Because you have to"},{"startTime":58.843,"endTime":60.913,"body":"shepherd those stakeholders."},{"startTime":60.973,"endTime":63.553,"body":"Um, and that can be challenging"},{"startTime":60.973,"endTime":63.553,"body":"for a lot of people."},{"startTime":64.213,"endTime":67.603,"body":"They aren't used to it, especially"},{"startTime":64.213,"endTime":67.603,"body":"if you have competing stakeholders"},{"startTime":67.603,"endTime":68.683,"body":"that want their own thing."},{"startTime":68.773,"endTime":70.333,"body":"You know, all that good stuff."},{"startTime":70.633,"endTime":70.923,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":70.923,"endTime":72.883,"body":"I, I told that to Mike Miller one time."},{"startTime":72.883,"endTime":76.173,"body":"I was like, I was like I was like,"},{"startTime":72.883,"endTime":76.173,"body":"correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't"},{"startTime":76.173,"endTime":79.653,"body":"like stakeholder management doesn't"},{"startTime":76.173,"endTime":79.653,"body":"like, that becomes your only job"},{"startTime":79.653,"endTime":80.944,"body":"at some point as a product owner."},{"startTime":81.433,"endTime":81.693,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":81.993,"endTime":82.264,"body":"It's not true."},{"startTime":82.269,"endTime":84.693,"body":"Cause you have a bunch other, you"},{"startTime":82.269,"endTime":84.693,"body":"have, you're like a little mini ba"},{"startTime":85.193,"endTime":87.893,"body":"and you gotta get people together"},{"startTime":85.193,"endTime":87.893,"body":"and all kind, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":87.893,"endTime":89.243,"body":"The other, the other responsibilities."},{"startTime":89.243,"endTime":91.783,"body":"But yeah, man, stakeholder management."},{"startTime":92.283,"endTime":92.883,"body":"I could see it."},{"startTime":93.383,"endTime":93.713,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":94.013,"endTime":96.393,"body":"What do you think you can, you"},{"startTime":94.013,"endTime":96.393,"body":"can disagree with me because"},{"startTime":96.413,"endTime":99.163,"body":"that, that, that, that's all I do"},{"startTime":96.413,"endTime":99.163,"body":"all day is disagree with people."},{"startTime":99.163,"endTime":102.313,"body":"So, and I spend most of"},{"startTime":99.163,"endTime":102.313,"body":"my time keeping the peace."},{"startTime":102.313,"endTime":103.563,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":103.563,"endTime":104.313,"body":"It's interesting."},{"startTime":104.313,"endTime":106.743,"body":"I, I'd love to try a product ownership."},{"startTime":106.743,"endTime":110.853,"body":"I did a project with a very short"},{"startTime":106.743,"endTime":110.853,"body":"project actually, where I was playing."},{"startTime":110.973,"endTime":113.103,"body":"Um, I know this is a cardinal scene,"},{"startTime":110.973,"endTime":113.103,"body":"but I was playing double duty."},{"startTime":113.103,"endTime":113.503,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":114.003,"endTime":115.593,"body":"Um, kind of acting as a."},{"startTime":116.163,"endTime":117.303,"body":"Scrum master and a pro."},{"startTime":117.403,"endTime":117.693,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":117.693,"endTime":117.893,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":117.893,"endTime":118.013,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":118.018,"endTime":121.803,"body":"I, I was doing that when I started,"},{"startTime":118.018,"endTime":121.803,"body":"but, but it, it, i, it got to a"},{"startTime":121.803,"endTime":125.088,"body":"point where I was like, I was like,"},{"startTime":121.803,"endTime":125.088,"body":"dude, I can't I can't, it, it's"},{"startTime":125.088,"endTime":126.528,"body":"certainly not tenable, you know?"},{"startTime":127.218,"endTime":127.518,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":127.523,"endTime":129.438,"body":"It's been hitting, so"},{"startTime":127.523,"endTime":129.438,"body":"I brought on the left."},{"startTime":129.588,"endTime":129.798,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":129.888,"endTime":132.058,"body":"So they didn't find a"},{"startTime":129.888,"endTime":132.058,"body":"replacement quite some time."},{"startTime":132.058,"endTime":132.148,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":132.648,"endTime":134.088,"body":"When was that recently?"},{"startTime":134.478,"endTime":136.248,"body":"No, no, that was a couple of jobs ago."},{"startTime":136.248,"endTime":138.678,"body":"So I'd said at least four"},{"startTime":136.248,"endTime":138.678,"body":"or five years ago now."},{"startTime":139.178,"endTime":139.688,"body":"Maybe a little longer."},{"startTime":140.188,"endTime":141.778,"body":"Dude, there was something"},{"startTime":140.188,"endTime":141.778,"body":"I want to ask you."},{"startTime":141.783,"endTime":142.648,"body":"I can't remember what it was."},{"startTime":142.653,"endTime":143.938,"body":"It was something along the lines of like,"},{"startTime":144.438,"endTime":148.858,"body":"Think, I think now, like after being,"},{"startTime":144.438,"endTime":148.858,"body":"after being with this client,  I'm pretty,"},{"startTime":148.918,"endTime":151.309,"body":"in my mind I'm like Product ownership."},{"startTime":151.309,"endTime":154.439,"body":"Like I was I would, I think I'd"},{"startTime":151.309,"endTime":154.439,"body":"rather do this in the future."},{"startTime":154.769,"endTime":155.129,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":155.189,"endTime":159.139,"body":"Like, what is that do, would you"},{"startTime":155.189,"endTime":159.139,"body":"rather be in the scrum master spot"},{"startTime":159.144,"endTime":162.079,"body":"or would you rather be in like a"},{"startTime":159.144,"endTime":162.079,"body":"scaled spot where you have Scrum?"},{"startTime":162.319,"endTime":167.689,"body":"Because like I, I ask because I'm like,"},{"startTime":162.319,"endTime":167.689,"body":"I'm working now, and I like, I clearly"},{"startTime":167.689,"endTime":169.579,"body":"see, I, I told her this the other day."},{"startTime":169.579,"endTime":173.659,"body":"I was like, I was like, there's tons of"},{"startTime":169.579,"endTime":173.659,"body":"opportunities because it's, it's, it's"},{"startTime":173.659,"endTime":175.489,"body":"the first time that I've been in a spot."},{"startTime":175.549,"endTime":176.329,"body":"Let me think about that before."},{"startTime":176.329,"endTime":177.079,"body":"That might be a lie."},{"startTime":177.579,"endTime":178.239,"body":"Let me think about this."},{"startTime":178.239,"endTime":181.354,"body":"Before the other, the other thing"},{"startTime":178.239,"endTime":181.354,"body":"that I, that I I took from our like"},{"startTime":181.704,"endTime":187.999,"body":"Oma and I did a we did a, um like"},{"startTime":181.704,"endTime":187.999,"body":"a, a, a test podcast just to check"},{"startTime":187.999,"endTime":189.319,"body":"the mics and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":189.709,"endTime":192.909,"body":"And and out, out of that, I"},{"startTime":189.709,"endTime":192.909,"body":"watched that test podcast."},{"startTime":193.909,"endTime":196.834,"body":"And I talked about a lot of"},{"startTime":193.909,"endTime":196.834,"body":"really different things like air"},{"startTime":196.834,"endTime":197.644,"body":"disaster and stuff like that."},{"startTime":197.644,"endTime":200.704,"body":"And I was like, man, Oh,"},{"startTime":197.644,"endTime":200.704,"body":"my details are wrong."},{"startTime":200.704,"endTime":201.754,"body":"Like, they're just terrible."},{"startTime":201.759,"endTime":203.734,"body":"I was like, everything"},{"startTime":201.759,"endTime":203.734,"body":"I'm saying is wrong."},{"startTime":203.734,"endTime":206.974,"body":"Like, there's just like details that"},{"startTime":203.734,"endTime":206.974,"body":"I say that I list where I give like,"},{"startTime":207.184,"endTime":209.914,"body":"oh, they flew for X number of hours"},{"startTime":207.184,"endTime":209.914,"body":"and then they crash or whatever."},{"startTime":209.914,"endTime":212.074,"body":"Like almost every detail I said was wrong."},{"startTime":212.074,"endTime":217.064,"body":"So I gotta try to, I gotta try to not"},{"startTime":212.074,"endTime":217.064,"body":"if I say something, I'm, we're gonna"},{"startTime":217.064,"endTime":219.944,"body":"have to look it up, like when I say it,"},{"startTime":217.064,"endTime":219.944,"body":"just so I can get the details right."},{"startTime":219.944,"endTime":221.174,"body":"I gotta be better about that one."},{"startTime":221.674,"endTime":223.174,"body":"Um, anyway, weird."},{"startTime":223.394,"endTime":226.694,"body":"But anyway, I, I was working with her and"},{"startTime":223.394,"endTime":226.694,"body":"I was like I, I was like, look this is"},{"startTime":226.699,"endTime":229.724,"body":"probably the first time again, I'm not"},{"startTime":226.699,"endTime":229.724,"body":"a hundred percent certain about this."},{"startTime":230.204,"endTime":231.794,"body":"I probably needed have another drink."},{"startTime":232.164,"endTime":235.494,"body":"But um, I was like, I think this"},{"startTime":232.164,"endTime":235.494,"body":"is probably the first time that"},{"startTime":235.494,"endTime":241.884,"body":"I've been on a project where I feel"},{"startTime":235.494,"endTime":241.884,"body":"like I am properly aligned with the"},{"startTime":241.889,"endTime":246.024,"body":"executives and empowered to do the"},{"startTime":241.889,"endTime":246.024,"body":"job that they brought me on to do."},{"startTime":246.534,"endTime":248.544,"body":"And they're giving me their"},{"startTime":246.534,"endTime":248.544,"body":"backing a hundred percent."},{"startTime":249.044,"endTime":249.334,"body":"Nice."},{"startTime":249.704,"endTime":251.924,"body":"That's always a plus when"},{"startTime":249.704,"endTime":251.924,"body":"they're giving you the backing."},{"startTime":251.924,"endTime":252.224,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":252.224,"endTime":254.144,"body":"Cause you're not fighting"},{"startTime":252.224,"endTime":254.144,"body":"uphill battle all the time."},{"startTime":254.174,"endTime":254.474,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":254.474,"endTime":255.164,"body":"Which is good."},{"startTime":255.314,"endTime":255.674,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":256.124,"endTime":256.454,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":256.544,"endTime":261.379,"body":"But but so I, I told her, I was"},{"startTime":256.544,"endTime":261.379,"body":"like, look I was like, in, in an"},{"startTime":261.379,"endTime":266.039,"body":"environment like this, I was like"},{"startTime":261.379,"endTime":266.039,"body":"she, she I think her, I, this might"},{"startTime":266.039,"endTime":267.879,"body":"not be true, so I, I have to ask her."},{"startTime":268.239,"endTime":273.099,"body":"But I think she's only ever been a"},{"startTime":268.239,"endTime":273.099,"body":"scrum master at large organizations."},{"startTime":273.609,"endTime":274.059,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":274.299,"endTime":279.099,"body":"So, and if that is true, I'm like,"},{"startTime":274.299,"endTime":279.099,"body":"I, I told her, I was like, I think"},{"startTime":279.099,"endTime":286.269,"body":"you have a opportunity here to like"},{"startTime":279.099,"endTime":286.269,"body":"really get in people's business and"},{"startTime":286.329,"endTime":290.259,"body":"learn a lot of the different areas that"},{"startTime":286.329,"endTime":290.259,"body":"otherwise you would be kept away from."},{"startTime":290.529,"endTime":290.859,"body":"Either."},{"startTime":290.859,"endTime":294.339,"body":"Either, either because like you"},{"startTime":290.859,"endTime":294.339,"body":"got big egos or whatever in those"},{"startTime":294.339,"endTime":297.099,"body":"little departments or whatever,"},{"startTime":294.339,"endTime":297.099,"body":"they keep you out of there, or."},{"startTime":297.474,"endTime":300.534,"body":"Um, you're too busy with other things"},{"startTime":297.474,"endTime":300.534,"body":"that you're doing running around."},{"startTime":300.534,"endTime":303.624,"body":"Like, I, I know when I was doing,"},{"startTime":300.534,"endTime":303.624,"body":"I was a scrum master at a large"},{"startTime":303.624,"endTime":304.794,"body":"organization, let's put it that way."},{"startTime":305.134,"endTime":308.104,"body":"I I remember running around like crazy"},{"startTime":305.134,"endTime":308.104,"body":"just trying to get people's time."},{"startTime":308.584,"endTime":308.764,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":309.154,"endTime":309.724,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":310.084,"endTime":313.174,"body":"So it was like she didn't have to deal"},{"startTime":310.084,"endTime":313.174,"body":"with that right Now, like the, the"},{"startTime":313.174,"endTime":317.824,"body":"thing is like, we don't really ask, we"},{"startTime":313.174,"endTime":317.824,"body":"don't really, we don't really ask for"},{"startTime":317.824,"endTime":319.564,"body":"a lot, well, let me think about this."},{"startTime":320.164,"endTime":323.434,"body":"We don't really ask for things often."},{"startTime":324.034,"endTime":328.194,"body":"So when we do ask for things,"},{"startTime":324.034,"endTime":328.194,"body":"people take it serious cuz they're"},{"startTime":328.194,"endTime":329.964,"body":"not used to us asking for things."},{"startTime":329.994,"endTime":332.244,"body":"That's, that's probably the"},{"startTime":329.994,"endTime":332.244,"body":"easiest way for me to describe it."},{"startTime":332.249,"endTime":334.614,"body":"That's actually a luxury"},{"startTime":332.249,"endTime":334.614,"body":"I think, you know?"},{"startTime":334.674,"endTime":337.764,"body":"Um, and certainly for her it's"},{"startTime":334.674,"endTime":337.764,"body":"a great opportunity to pick up"},{"startTime":337.764,"endTime":339.054,"body":"some other things, you know?"},{"startTime":339.059,"endTime":339.284,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":339.824,"endTime":342.864,"body":"Um, yeah, because at at large"},{"startTime":339.824,"endTime":342.864,"body":"organizations you are just, like you"},{"startTime":342.864,"endTime":347.084,"body":"said, looking for people, chasing"},{"startTime":342.864,"endTime":347.084,"body":"them, and even to the point where,"},{"startTime":347.919,"endTime":351.819,"body":"You spend a lot of your time just"},{"startTime":347.919,"endTime":351.819,"body":"being compliant with their processes."},{"startTime":351.849,"endTime":352.059,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":352.179,"endTime":353.709,"body":"Doing reports and this and that."},{"startTime":354.099,"endTime":356.799,"body":"Um, basically all of that is"},{"startTime":354.099,"endTime":356.799,"body":"non-productive work, so, right."},{"startTime":356.799,"endTime":357.729,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":357.819,"endTime":359.524,"body":"So it's a great opportunity for you."},{"startTime":359.584,"endTime":359.794,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":359.794,"endTime":362.834,"body":"But if you've never had if you never"},{"startTime":359.794,"endTime":362.834,"body":"had that experience, like if you"},{"startTime":362.834,"endTime":365.865,"body":"don't know that there's a difference"},{"startTime":362.834,"endTime":365.865,"body":"or whatever, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":366.044,"endTime":369.644,"body":"Like, it all becomes normal that"},{"startTime":366.044,"endTime":369.644,"body":"the that's the thing, the that's the"},{"startTime":369.644,"endTime":375.494,"body":"thing that worries me about working at"},{"startTime":369.644,"endTime":375.494,"body":"different organizations or, or having,"},{"startTime":375.494,"endTime":380.145,"body":"like being in a, a, a, being in a"},{"startTime":375.494,"endTime":380.145,"body":"consulting firm, like you don't really"},{"startTime":380.15,"endTime":383.264,"body":"have control of the clients that you're"},{"startTime":380.15,"endTime":383.264,"body":"consulting with, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":383.324,"endTime":386.114,"body":"I, I mean, I guess, I guess you"},{"startTime":383.324,"endTime":386.114,"body":"would have control if you had"},{"startTime":386.114,"endTime":388.964,"body":"like, higher and fire, like if you"},{"startTime":386.114,"endTime":388.964,"body":"were the one selling the clients."},{"startTime":389.054,"endTime":389.264,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":389.264,"endTime":389.684,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":389.684,"endTime":392.504,"body":"You would just like fire the bad"},{"startTime":389.684,"endTime":392.504,"body":"clients and keep the good clients."},{"startTime":393.004,"endTime":394.644,"body":"But, uh I don't know."},{"startTime":395.244,"endTime":395.694,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":395.904,"endTime":398.024,"body":"So what, what so here,"},{"startTime":395.904,"endTime":398.024,"body":"here I'll tell you this."},{"startTime":398.474,"endTime":399.944,"body":"Here, let me, let me start with this."},{"startTime":400.064,"endTime":404.474,"body":"Here's, here's what I told her, and you,"},{"startTime":400.064,"endTime":404.474,"body":"you tell me if you would've different"},{"startTime":404.474,"endTime":407.864,"body":"advice or if my advice is wrong, right?"},{"startTime":407.864,"endTime":410.984,"body":"Because like, you're, you're, you"},{"startTime":407.864,"endTime":410.984,"body":"are the guy that I go to for advice."},{"startTime":411.484,"endTime":414.584,"body":"So, so, , what I told her was I"},{"startTime":411.484,"endTime":414.584,"body":"was like, look, man, you like,"},{"startTime":414.674,"endTime":416.864,"body":"it's a, we're properly aligned."},{"startTime":417.534,"endTime":421.825,"body":"We're properly aligned in the"},{"startTime":417.534,"endTime":421.825,"body":"structure to do our best work, right?"},{"startTime":421.83,"endTime":422.934,"body":"That's the way I feel."},{"startTime":423.444,"endTime":427.614,"body":"I was like, my idea is I'll"},{"startTime":423.444,"endTime":427.614,"body":"just bring her to everything."},{"startTime":427.619,"endTime":428.574,"body":"Everything that I go to."},{"startTime":429.279,"endTime":434.869,"body":"And where possible I'll like put"},{"startTime":429.279,"endTime":434.869,"body":"her in uh I'll give you an example."},{"startTime":435.619,"endTime":440.789,"body":"They, they, um all of the deliverables"},{"startTime":435.619,"endTime":440.789,"body":"up until this date that we have had"},{"startTime":440.789,"endTime":445.274,"body":"to produce with the development teams"},{"startTime":440.789,"endTime":445.274,"body":"have been based on a roadmap that I"},{"startTime":445.274,"endTime":449.504,"body":"did my first, first or second, first"},{"startTime":445.274,"endTime":449.504,"body":"or second week that I was there."},{"startTime":449.924,"endTime":453.044,"body":"I sat down with all the executives"},{"startTime":449.924,"endTime":453.044,"body":"and a high level stakeholders."},{"startTime":453.104,"endTime":455.264,"body":"And we did road mapping exercise."},{"startTime":455.264,"endTime":457.994,"body":"And we did a storyboarding exercise"},{"startTime":455.264,"endTime":457.994,"body":"from that road mapping exercise."},{"startTime":458.084,"endTime":461.499,"body":"And we, and I took that back and"},{"startTime":458.084,"endTime":461.499,"body":"I went and did a bunch of little"},{"startTime":461.504,"endTime":464.789,"body":"ad hoc def refinements and, and"},{"startTime":461.504,"endTime":464.789,"body":"got stories and, and flushed 'em"},{"startTime":464.794,"endTime":466.209,"body":"out and brought 'em to the team."},{"startTime":466.599,"endTime":467.259,"body":"Flushed them out."},{"startTime":467.439,"endTime":467.909,"body":"Flushed 'em out."},{"startTime":467.909,"endTime":468.029,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":468.029,"endTime":468.589,"body":"Flushed them out."},{"startTime":468.589,"endTime":468.709,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":468.709,"endTime":469.269,"body":"Flushed 'em out."},{"startTime":469.269,"endTime":469.869,"body":"Flushed 'em out."},{"startTime":470.619,"endTime":471.039,"body":"Flushed."},{"startTime":471.109,"endTime":472.509,"body":"I, I don't like flesh them out."},{"startTime":473.009,"endTime":475.499,"body":"It's like you're carving you a skeleton."},{"startTime":475.639,"endTime":476.759,"body":"Oh, no, no."},{"startTime":477.569,"endTime":479.459,"body":"What, what a terrible term it is."},{"startTime":479.959,"endTime":480.179,"body":"Uh."},{"startTime":480.679,"endTime":481.009,"body":"Anyway."},{"startTime":481.089,"endTime":482.919,"body":"I don't, I do that sometimes."},{"startTime":483.019,"endTime":488.719,"body":"But anyway, we, so the, the point of that"},{"startTime":483.019,"endTime":488.719,"body":"ridiculous story is we have to go back"},{"startTime":488.779,"endTime":492.139,"body":"into that mode again, because now all"},{"startTime":488.779,"endTime":492.139,"body":"of our deadlines that came out of that"},{"startTime":492.139,"endTime":495.299,"body":"one session ended in the end of March."},{"startTime":495.779,"endTime":500.009,"body":"So we're approaching the, basically"},{"startTime":495.779,"endTime":500.009,"body":"the end of our rope, and now we have"},{"startTime":500.009,"endTime":504.269,"body":"to go back to the, well, boy, I'm"},{"startTime":500.009,"endTime":504.269,"body":"like, I'm full of them today, man."},{"startTime":504.274,"endTime":505.499,"body":"I'm full of nonsense."},{"startTime":505.679,"endTime":508.109,"body":"Like what are the, what are, what"},{"startTime":505.679,"endTime":508.109,"body":"other corporate nonsense could be"},{"startTime":508.109,"endTime":512.129,"body":"like a at the end of the day and"},{"startTime":508.109,"endTime":512.129,"body":"circle back and well what are back"},{"startTime":512.129,"endTime":513.849,"body":"to the, well, I love metaphors, man."},{"startTime":513.959,"endTime":514.559,"body":"Terrible."},{"startTime":514.559,"endTime":515.579,"body":"These are terrible."},{"startTime":516.299,"endTime":520.019,"body":"I never I almost ne like metaphors"},{"startTime":516.299,"endTime":520.019,"body":"do not exist in my language."},{"startTime":520.019,"endTime":521.279,"body":"I don't know why I'm saying it now."},{"startTime":521.279,"endTime":522.749,"body":"Probably cause I know I'm being recorded."},{"startTime":522.959,"endTime":523.529,"body":"Jesus."},{"startTime":524.429,"endTime":530.334,"body":"Um anyway, so what I told her was I"},{"startTime":524.429,"endTime":530.334,"body":"have to do a story mapping exercise."},{"startTime":530.614,"endTime":533.639,"body":"This, which will be part road"},{"startTime":530.614,"endTime":533.639,"body":"mapping, part storyboarding."},{"startTime":534.014,"endTime":536.714,"body":"Story mapping, boarding,"},{"startTime":534.014,"endTime":536.714,"body":"mapping, whatever."},{"startTime":537.564,"endTime":541.984,"body":"And I said what I, what I would like"},{"startTime":537.564,"endTime":541.984,"body":"is I would like to come in the room."},{"startTime":542.014,"endTime":543.664,"body":"I will invite my stakeholders."},{"startTime":543.754,"endTime":546.244,"body":"All stakeholders I think are"},{"startTime":543.754,"endTime":546.244,"body":"necessary for that, for the exercise."},{"startTime":546.304,"endTime":548.614,"body":"And then I want you to"},{"startTime":546.304,"endTime":548.614,"body":"facilitate the exercise."},{"startTime":549.364,"endTime":549.664,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":549.669,"endTime":552.834,"body":"And she was like, well, I, I,"},{"startTime":549.669,"endTime":552.834,"body":"I don't believe that I've ever"},{"startTime":552.834,"endTime":557.184,"body":"actually facilitated a full"},{"startTime":552.834,"endTime":557.184,"body":"exercise before like that."},{"startTime":557.784,"endTime":559.644,"body":"And I was like, cool."},{"startTime":560.544,"endTime":560.934,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":561.654,"endTime":561.834,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":561.834,"endTime":562.554,"body":"It's time."},{"startTime":562.614,"endTime":563.214,"body":"Take a leap."},{"startTime":563.304,"endTime":564.234,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":564.294,"endTime":568.219,"body":"You know, so this is, this is this"},{"startTime":564.294,"endTime":568.219,"body":"is this is the opportunity to her."},{"startTime":568.219,"endTime":569.989,"body":"I mean, I don't know if you"},{"startTime":568.219,"endTime":569.989,"body":"would do the same advice."},{"startTime":569.989,"endTime":572.749,"body":"You know, I definitely would"},{"startTime":569.989,"endTime":572.749,"body":"say that jump in with both fade."},{"startTime":572.749,"endTime":575.509,"body":"I'd probably prime her a little"},{"startTime":572.749,"endTime":575.509,"body":"bit so she doesn't feel like"},{"startTime":575.509,"endTime":576.739,"body":"she's left out on the limb."},{"startTime":576.739,"endTime":581.124,"body":"But yeah, she she didn't really have"},{"startTime":576.739,"endTime":581.124,"body":"to do a whole lot of that on the last"},{"startTime":581.124,"endTime":587.484,"body":"project that she was on with a client as a"},{"startTime":581.124,"endTime":587.484,"body":"project that I started on as a SC master."},{"startTime":587.829,"endTime":589.209,"body":"And then they added another team."},{"startTime":589.214,"endTime":589.349,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":589.434,"endTime":591.309,"body":"So I started more like coaching them."},{"startTime":591.699,"endTime":595.209,"body":"And so the idea that the team"},{"startTime":591.699,"endTime":595.209,"body":"needs a scrum master too."},{"startTime":595.209,"endTime":595.269,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":595.419,"endTime":597.489,"body":"Um, so that's how she came on."},{"startTime":597.489,"endTime":597.49,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":597.495,"endTime":601.899,"body":"And, and even then it was a slow"},{"startTime":597.495,"endTime":601.899,"body":"transition to her as a scrum"},{"startTime":601.904,"endTime":603.969,"body":"master, so that took some time."},{"startTime":604.419,"endTime":609.399,"body":"But when that happened, they're looking at"},{"startTime":604.419,"endTime":609.399,"body":"my role, they're looking at her role and"},{"startTime":609.399,"endTime":613.899,"body":"the other scrum master for the other team,"},{"startTime":609.399,"endTime":613.899,"body":"and they let the other scrum master go"},{"startTime":614.079,"endTime":616.149,"body":"thinking that she could just do two teams."},{"startTime":616.329,"endTime":618.759,"body":"Was that a, was that a on onsite person?"},{"startTime":618.759,"endTime":621.154,"body":"Scrum master or was this"},{"startTime":618.759,"endTime":621.154,"body":"after everyone was remote?"},{"startTime":621.664,"endTime":624.164,"body":"This is af No, this is"},{"startTime":621.664,"endTime":624.164,"body":"before everybody was remote."},{"startTime":624.454,"endTime":624.694,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":624.784,"endTime":624.934,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":624.934,"endTime":626.464,"body":"Yeah, just, just prior to it."},{"startTime":626.764,"endTime":629.614,"body":"Um, and the other scrum master was"},{"startTime":626.764,"endTime":629.614,"body":"also a contractor, so they figured"},{"startTime":629.614,"endTime":630.844,"body":"they're saving money, I guess."},{"startTime":630.904,"endTime":631.204,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":631.384,"endTime":635.254,"body":"Um, but behind the scenes I was"},{"startTime":631.384,"endTime":635.254,"body":"really kind of helping along Right."},{"startTime":635.259,"endTime":636.154,"body":"As much as I could."},{"startTime":636.159,"endTime":636.364,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":636.444,"endTime":637.524,"body":"Which they didn't see that."},{"startTime":637.834,"endTime":643.904,"body":"Um, and a lot of time was spent trying to"},{"startTime":637.834,"endTime":643.904,"body":"do GA charts and projections and Microsoft"},{"startTime":643.904,"endTime":645.434,"body":"project and all of that stuff, and."},{"startTime":646.019,"endTime":649.169,"body":"She didn't have experience of"},{"startTime":646.019,"endTime":649.169,"body":"creating critical paths and GA"},{"startTime":649.169,"endTime":651.599,"body":"charts in certainly with MS project."},{"startTime":651.989,"endTime":655.259,"body":"So I was doing that and then they"},{"startTime":651.989,"endTime":655.259,"body":"course extended the argument in,"},{"startTime":655.259,"endTime":658.559,"body":"in their minds that you don't"},{"startTime":655.259,"endTime":658.559,"body":"need a coach and a scrum master."},{"startTime":658.564,"endTime":662.609,"body":"So I was encouraged to leave,"},{"startTime":658.564,"endTime":662.609,"body":"which I did, and kind got mad"},{"startTime":662.614,"endTime":664.319,"body":"because it dropped her in it Right."},{"startTime":664.319,"endTime":665.579,"body":"With all of that stuff."},{"startTime":665.579,"endTime":669.329,"body":"So, ah, right after I, I went off"},{"startTime":665.579,"endTime":669.329,"body":"the project and still, of course with"},{"startTime":669.329,"endTime":671.669,"body":"cso, I did help her out unofficially."},{"startTime":671.699,"endTime":672.239,"body":"Yeah, of course."},{"startTime":672.244,"endTime":673.169,"body":"Um, with that."},{"startTime":673.679,"endTime":678.339,"body":"But, so she's come a long way by having"},{"startTime":673.679,"endTime":678.339,"body":"to face the music directly, so to speak."},{"startTime":678.339,"endTime":678.639,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":679.029,"endTime":681.749,"body":"Um, that was a very"},{"startTime":679.029,"endTime":681.749,"body":"politically charged project."},{"startTime":681.749,"endTime":682.029,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":682.259,"endTime":686.639,"body":"But, but by the time she came on, I think"},{"startTime":682.259,"endTime":686.639,"body":"the dust had already settled about that."},{"startTime":687.029,"endTime":691.839,"body":"Um the two different partners as"},{"startTime":687.029,"endTime":691.839,"body":"stakeholders wanting their own thing."},{"startTime":692.349,"endTime":696.639,"body":"Um, but in the end they agreed to disagree"},{"startTime":692.349,"endTime":696.639,"body":"and one congratulated to the other."},{"startTime":696.639,"endTime":697.329,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":697.389,"endTime":700.029,"body":"But yeah, it's coming back to,"},{"startTime":697.389,"endTime":700.029,"body":"to your point I think it's a"},{"startTime":700.029,"endTime":701.169,"body":"great opportunity for her to."},{"startTime":702.099,"endTime":704.739,"body":"To start with leading this this journey."},{"startTime":704.739,"endTime":706.809,"body":"Mapping, user mapping,"},{"startTime":704.739,"endTime":706.809,"body":"whatever you call it."},{"startTime":706.839,"endTime":707.169,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":707.289,"endTime":711.519,"body":"Um, if we can prime her first,"},{"startTime":707.289,"endTime":711.519,"body":"she has some confidence."},{"startTime":711.524,"endTime":712.809,"body":"I think she'll feel better about it."},{"startTime":712.814,"endTime":712.999,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":712.999,"endTime":713.199,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":713.289,"endTime":716.999,"body":"So, so, , this is a, this is a good"},{"startTime":713.289,"endTime":716.999,"body":"point cuz like, this is something that"},{"startTime":716.999,"endTime":720.699,"body":"actually people well honestly, I could"},{"startTime":716.999,"endTime":720.699,"body":"use it too, but like, anybody that listens"},{"startTime":720.699,"endTime":721.959,"body":"to this is gonna be able to use it."},{"startTime":722.009,"endTime":725.339,"body":", story mapping, like let's,"},{"startTime":722.009,"endTime":725.339,"body":"let's nuts and bolts."},{"startTime":725.339,"endTime":728.909,"body":"Let's talk about like, how would"},{"startTime":725.339,"endTime":728.909,"body":"you walk through story mapping?"},{"startTime":728.909,"endTime":733.739,"body":"Like I have, I have road roadmap items,"},{"startTime":728.909,"endTime":733.739,"body":"which likely roadmap items are just"},{"startTime":733.739,"endTime":738.419,"body":"things that, that the leadership is"},{"startTime":733.739,"endTime":738.419,"body":"thrown out, so get me this or whatever."},{"startTime":738.419,"endTime":740.309,"body":"They're, it's high"},{"startTime":738.419,"endTime":740.309,"body":"level objectives, right?"},{"startTime":740.459,"endTime":743.509,"body":"And, and my leadership like,"},{"startTime":740.459,"endTime":743.509,"body":"well, it's not, I, I don't want"},{"startTime":743.509,"endTime":745.099,"body":"to target my leadership like this."},{"startTime":745.249,"endTime":747.019,"body":"This is the other thing I learned"},{"startTime":745.249,"endTime":747.019,"body":"about being a product owner is"},{"startTime":747.019,"endTime":748.179,"body":"like, I put a lot of effort."},{"startTime":748.899,"endTime":753.009,"body":"In as scrum master trying to even my"},{"startTime":748.899,"endTime":753.009,"body":"language out, just, just to even it,"},{"startTime":753.009,"endTime":758.069,"body":"I'm not, not like, not like, not like"},{"startTime":753.009,"endTime":758.069,"body":"try to I'm not saying I'm trying to s"},{"startTime":758.129,"endTime":760.349,"body":"not risk offending people or whatever."},{"startTime":760.469,"endTime":763.109,"body":"I'm just trying to make like the"},{"startTime":760.469,"endTime":763.109,"body":"peaks in the valleys in my language."},{"startTime":763.139,"endTime":764.909,"body":"I'm tr trying to even"},{"startTime":763.139,"endTime":764.909,"body":"'em out a little bit."},{"startTime":765.119,"endTime":769.699,"body":"And when I went to go be a product"},{"startTime":765.119,"endTime":769.699,"body":"owner, I'm like, man, I, it's like"},{"startTime":769.699,"endTime":771.719,"body":"I reverted in all my languages."},{"startTime":772.219,"endTime":773.749,"body":"I was gonna ask, how's"},{"startTime":772.219,"endTime":773.749,"body":"that going as a field?"},{"startTime":773.769,"endTime":776.899,"body":"It's, it's going terribly for my"},{"startTime":773.769,"endTime":776.899,"body":"professional development, but like,"},{"startTime":776.899,"endTime":780.539,"body":"if my, my personal satisfaction,"},{"startTime":776.899,"endTime":780.539,"body":"I feel great, but I don't know."},{"startTime":780.899,"endTime":784.304,"body":"But but, but the, the, the, the point"},{"startTime":780.899,"endTime":784.304,"body":"was like, alright, story mapping."},{"startTime":784.484,"endTime":789.464,"body":"So, so you're probably the perfect"},{"startTime":784.484,"endTime":789.464,"body":"person to take us through story mapping."},{"startTime":789.464,"endTime":791.744,"body":"Like what is the ideal"},{"startTime":789.464,"endTime":791.744,"body":"story mapping session?"},{"startTime":792.374,"endTime":796.584,"body":"You know, like what, what, how do I,"},{"startTime":792.374,"endTime":796.584,"body":"what do I need to do before I get there?"},{"startTime":796.964,"endTime":797.704,"body":"What do I do when I'm there?"},{"startTime":798.204,"endTime":801.354,"body":"And then like the other thing about"},{"startTime":798.204,"endTime":801.354,"body":"product ownership is like, there's"},{"startTime":801.354,"endTime":805.404,"body":"a special sauce that I've discovered"},{"startTime":801.354,"endTime":805.404,"body":"of like, after you get everybody in a"},{"startTime":805.404,"endTime":810.744,"body":"room and do the thing, you have to take"},{"startTime":805.404,"endTime":810.744,"body":"the thing and put it into the system."},{"startTime":811.224,"endTime":814.854,"body":"And that's a whole different thing than"},{"startTime":811.224,"endTime":814.854,"body":"none of the books teach you, you know?"},{"startTime":814.859,"endTime":815.004,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":815.074,"endTime":817.934,"body":", walk me through just the"},{"startTime":815.074,"endTime":817.934,"body":"story mapping experience."},{"startTime":818.444,"endTime":818.714,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":818.714,"endTime":820.904,"body":"So I'm glad you, you mentioned"},{"startTime":818.714,"endTime":820.904,"body":"the three phases, right?"},{"startTime":820.904,"endTime":823.784,"body":"The preparation going into"},{"startTime":820.904,"endTime":823.784,"body":"it, the actual process."},{"startTime":823.784,"endTime":823.874,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":824.114,"endTime":825.464,"body":"And then what do you"},{"startTime":824.114,"endTime":825.464,"body":"do with it afterwards?"},{"startTime":825.464,"endTime":825.584,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":825.584,"endTime":826.094,"body":"When you have it."},{"startTime":826.094,"endTime":826.574,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":826.574,"endTime":826.575,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":826.575,"endTime":826.576,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":826.874,"endTime":829.994,"body":"I think the preparation is, believe"},{"startTime":826.874,"endTime":829.994,"body":"it or not, the most critical part."},{"startTime":830.304,"endTime":833.904,"body":"And that's because if you're not, if"},{"startTime":830.304,"endTime":833.904,"body":"you're not adequately prepared, then"},{"startTime":833.904,"endTime":835.854,"body":"everything just falls downhill from there."},{"startTime":835.859,"endTime":836.304,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":836.484,"endTime":840.204,"body":"Um, so you mentioned bringing"},{"startTime":836.484,"endTime":840.204,"body":"stakeholders into the room, so of"},{"startTime":840.204,"endTime":841.834,"body":"course bring the right people in, right?"},{"startTime":841.834,"endTime":842.114,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":842.544,"endTime":844.884,"body":"And then they need to be clear coming in."},{"startTime":845.244,"endTime":848.964,"body":"With what it is, what is it"},{"startTime":845.244,"endTime":848.964,"body":"that they want from the product?"},{"startTime":849.324,"endTime":849.564,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":849.894,"endTime":852.654,"body":"They don't have to worry about"},{"startTime":849.894,"endTime":852.654,"body":"when or sequencing of it, right?"},{"startTime":852.654,"endTime":852.714,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":852.719,"endTime":852.724,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":852.744,"endTime":854.214,"body":"What functionality do they want?"},{"startTime":854.394,"endTime":854.574,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":854.819,"endTime":857.154,"body":"Um, and, and that's about it really."},{"startTime":857.304,"endTime":861.504,"body":"But it needs to be total meaning if they"},{"startTime":857.304,"endTime":861.504,"body":"left out a piece of functionality that's"},{"startTime":861.509,"endTime":863.204,"body":"critical, that's gonna hurt us, right."},{"startTime":863.204,"endTime":863.994,"body":"Going forward."},{"startTime":863.994,"endTime":864.144,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":864.144,"endTime":864.145,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":864.414,"endTime":867.084,"body":"So bring in everything they"},{"startTime":864.414,"endTime":867.084,"body":"take and think of, even if"},{"startTime":867.084,"endTime":868.524,"body":"it's a high level, that's okay."},{"startTime":868.554,"endTime":868.644,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":869.454,"endTime":872.034,"body":"Um, so that, that's the preparation part."},{"startTime":872.034,"endTime":874.164,"body":"Now that's on their side, right?"},{"startTime":874.164,"endTime":874.524,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":874.524,"endTime":874.644,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":875.334,"endTime":878.604,"body":"In my, in my case, it's, it's, it's"},{"startTime":875.334,"endTime":878.604,"body":"they're, they're doing, they're"},{"startTime":878.604,"endTime":881.724,"body":"doing quarterly planning, but in"},{"startTime":878.604,"endTime":881.724,"body":"actuality they're, they're playing"},{"startTime":881.724,"endTime":882.354,"body":"through the end of the year."},{"startTime":882.384,"endTime":885.444,"body":"Like, they're, they're, they're, they're"},{"startTime":882.384,"endTime":885.444,"body":"like, the pretense of this is like, we"},{"startTime":885.444,"endTime":888.654,"body":"wanna plan the second quarter thoroughly"},{"startTime":885.444,"endTime":888.654,"body":"and get real deadlines or whatever, but"},{"startTime":888.654,"endTime":894.574,"body":"like, They I saw their roadmap items like"},{"startTime":888.654,"endTime":894.574,"body":"I got a preview of it and it's, it's not"},{"startTime":894.574,"endTime":897.034,"body":"just second quarter, it's second quarter"},{"startTime":894.574,"endTime":897.034,"body":"and third quarter and fourth quarter."},{"startTime":897.034,"endTime":901.214,"body":"So I'm like I was like, I told them,"},{"startTime":897.034,"endTime":901.214,"body":"I'm like, I think you guys need me"},{"startTime":901.214,"endTime":905.054,"body":"to fly in because like, this seems"},{"startTime":901.214,"endTime":905.054,"body":"a bit more, this, this doesn't seem"},{"startTime":905.054,"endTime":907.035,"body":"like a two hour exercise on the phone."},{"startTime":907.484,"endTime":912.104,"body":"This seems like a two day"},{"startTime":907.484,"endTime":912.104,"body":"walkthrough with like tape on"},{"startTime":912.104,"endTime":913.484,"body":"the walls and that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":913.724,"endTime":913.904,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":913.904,"endTime":917.444,"body":"So most of the user story mapping"},{"startTime":913.904,"endTime":917.444,"body":"sessions I've done have been that."},{"startTime":917.654,"endTime":917.804,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":917.809,"endTime":918.044,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":918.044,"endTime":920.474,"body":"The first day is just like,"},{"startTime":918.044,"endTime":920.474,"body":"it's a top down approach."},{"startTime":920.474,"endTime":920.594,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":920.594,"endTime":924.314,"body":"So you break down these, these high level"},{"startTime":920.594,"endTime":924.314,"body":"objectives into smaller pieces, right?"},{"startTime":924.314,"endTime":924.434,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":924.644,"endTime":924.734,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":925.064,"endTime":930.374,"body":"Um, and then, then you end the second"},{"startTime":925.064,"endTime":930.374,"body":"day literally with a map that says,"},{"startTime":930.374,"endTime":932.474,"body":"here's what we're doing for MVP uhhuh."},{"startTime":932.654,"endTime":938.694,"body":"If you wanna break it down into other"},{"startTime":932.654,"endTime":938.694,"body":"m um, acronyms, minimal test, testable"},{"startTime":938.694,"endTime":940.374,"body":"solution is one that people use."},{"startTime":940.854,"endTime":941.904,"body":"Um, you would have."},{"startTime":942.729,"endTime":946.689,"body":"User stories, albeit not with great"},{"startTime":942.729,"endTime":946.689,"body":"amount of detail, but you would"},{"startTime":946.689,"endTime":950.679,"body":"have those and you would have those"},{"startTime":946.689,"endTime":950.679,"body":"sequenced with respect to each other."},{"startTime":950.684,"endTime":953.739,"body":"So you've think, thought about"},{"startTime":950.684,"endTime":953.739,"body":"dependencies right there as well."},{"startTime":953.744,"endTime":953.929,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":954.149,"endTime":958.539,"body":"And you would have a release plan"},{"startTime":954.149,"endTime":958.539,"body":"leaving the, the event on the second day."},{"startTime":959.199,"endTime":960.809,"body":"Um, I think it's extremely ambitious."},{"startTime":961.179,"endTime":962.859,"body":"Try and do it on a, on a two hour call."},{"startTime":963.334,"endTime":965.049,"body":"Um, it's just not gonna happen."},{"startTime":965.049,"endTime":965.289,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":965.289,"endTime":967.449,"body":"You're gonna have to have"},{"startTime":965.289,"endTime":967.449,"body":"multiple calls like that."},{"startTime":967.719,"endTime":969.939,"body":"Well, I mean ambitious"},{"startTime":967.719,"endTime":969.939,"body":"is one word for you."},{"startTime":970.179,"endTime":972.489,"body":"Like, we can use that word if you want."},{"startTime":972.699,"endTime":973.299,"body":"Ambitious."},{"startTime":973.799,"endTime":977.784,"body":"But I, I think from a, from a team"},{"startTime":973.799,"endTime":977.784,"body":"perspective, they've gotta be able to come"},{"startTime":978.084,"endTime":982.984,"body":"in there without any preconceptions of"},{"startTime":978.084,"endTime":982.984,"body":"we need, we need to do this by this date."},{"startTime":983.164,"endTime":984.544,"body":"Cuz you haven't heard anything yet."},{"startTime":984.604,"endTime":984.664,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":984.664,"endTime":987.454,"body":"So just come in here with a blank slate."},{"startTime":987.514,"endTime":988.324,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":988.594,"endTime":990.244,"body":"Look at the objectives and."},{"startTime":990.604,"endTime":995.014,"body":"Put those up on the wall and, and"},{"startTime":990.604,"endTime":995.014,"body":"then here's the thing, story mapping"},{"startTime":995.014,"endTime":998.944,"body":"is what people call it, but for me"},{"startTime":995.014,"endTime":998.944,"body":"it's important to do a journey map."},{"startTime":999.034,"endTime":1001.884,"body":"Like how would the end"},{"startTime":999.034,"endTime":1001.884,"body":"user navigate your system?"},{"startTime":1002.094,"endTime":1002.304,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1002.544,"endTime":1006.125,"body":"Um starting from logging"},{"startTime":1002.544,"endTime":1006.125,"body":"in to logging out Yeah."},{"startTime":1006.304,"endTime":1007.654,"body":"What they do all the way in between."},{"startTime":1007.654,"endTime":1007.655,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1007.66,"endTime":1007.844,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1008.104,"endTime":1010.864,"body":"Put those up on the wall and,"},{"startTime":1008.104,"endTime":1010.864,"body":"and vertically then you would"},{"startTime":1010.864,"endTime":1013.354,"body":"put down high level epics Yeah."},{"startTime":1013.514,"endTime":1014.984,"body":"Under each one of those objectives."},{"startTime":1014.984,"endTime":1015.284,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1016.034,"endTime":1019.724,"body":"Let me, let me, let me ask you if you"},{"startTime":1016.034,"endTime":1019.724,"body":"if you walk into a company for the first"},{"startTime":1019.724,"endTime":1022.514,"body":"time and they're like, oh, oh, okay."},{"startTime":1022.574,"endTime":1022.814,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1022.819,"endTime":1023.444,"body":"Here, here we go."},{"startTime":1023.744,"endTime":1027.759,"body":"If you're hired and you're brought into"},{"startTime":1023.744,"endTime":1027.759,"body":"a company for the first time, And they're"},{"startTime":1027.759,"endTime":1029.739,"body":"like, oh, we, we have to see the backlog."},{"startTime":1029.739,"endTime":1032.619,"body":"Like, we don't, like they, they're"},{"startTime":1029.739,"endTime":1032.619,"body":"setting up agility for the first time."},{"startTime":1032.619,"endTime":1035.379,"body":"I'm like, let's, cuz this is"},{"startTime":1032.619,"endTime":1035.379,"body":"basically what I went through, right?"},{"startTime":1035.799,"endTime":1039.789,"body":"And the first thing I did with them is I"},{"startTime":1035.799,"endTime":1039.789,"body":"sat down and I was like, well let's get"},{"startTime":1039.849,"endTime":1042.639,"body":"all the stakeholders, all the relevant"},{"startTime":1039.849,"endTime":1042.639,"body":"stakeholders together, everybody who"},{"startTime":1042.669,"endTime":1043.96,"body":"whatever, have to kind of trust them."},{"startTime":1044.049,"endTime":1045.489,"body":"Cause I don't really know"},{"startTime":1044.049,"endTime":1045.489,"body":"the stakeholders yet."},{"startTime":1045.669,"endTime":1046.899,"body":"Now that I've been there for a while."},{"startTime":1046.899,"endTime":1050.019,"body":"I know who everybody is and I"},{"startTime":1046.899,"endTime":1050.019,"body":"know who to contact for what."},{"startTime":1050.199,"endTime":1050.529,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1050.979,"endTime":1054.089,"body":"But, but when you go in for the first"},{"startTime":1050.979,"endTime":1054.089,"body":"time and you have to build their"},{"startTime":1054.089,"endTime":1057.629,"body":"backlog, cuz for these guys, they,"},{"startTime":1054.089,"endTime":1057.629,"body":"they transition from traditional"},{"startTime":1057.634,"endTime":1061.739,"body":"project management into agility."},{"startTime":1062.239,"endTime":1064.159,"body":"Like a they just jumped straight in."},{"startTime":1064.189,"endTime":1067.629,"body":"They just one day they just this like,"},{"startTime":1064.189,"endTime":1067.629,"body":"it's, it's like a story that like you"},{"startTime":1067.629,"endTime":1071.769,"body":"don't ever get to, you hear about and you"},{"startTime":1067.629,"endTime":1071.769,"body":"like people talk about it or whatever,"},{"startTime":1071.769,"endTime":1073.209,"body":"but you don't actually get to experience."},{"startTime":1073.284,"endTime":1074.064,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1074.064,"endTime":1076.104,"body":"So that like, that's why"},{"startTime":1074.064,"endTime":1076.104,"body":"I'm enjoying what I'm doing."},{"startTime":1076.154,"endTime":1078.674,"body":"Brian's pretty crazy cuz like I"},{"startTime":1076.154,"endTime":1078.674,"body":"said, like at 10 o'clock at night,"},{"startTime":1078.674,"endTime":1079.694,"body":"he's on, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1079.699,"endTime":1083.204,"body":"Like seven o'clock in the morning he's"},{"startTime":1079.699,"endTime":1083.204,"body":"on and like, dude, I'm on because like,"},{"startTime":1083.544,"endTime":1086.104,"body":"I, I like, they're doing it right."},{"startTime":1086.104,"endTime":1086.714,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1086.714,"endTime":1087.704,"body":"They've committed to it."},{"startTime":1087.709,"endTime":1091.749,"body":", I wanna make sure that like"},{"startTime":1087.709,"endTime":1091.749,"body":"there's no, there's no yeah."},{"startTime":1091.749,"endTime":1096.619,"body":"Like there's no impediment to"},{"startTime":1091.749,"endTime":1096.619,"body":"their, their success Right."},{"startTime":1096.789,"endTime":1097.659,"body":"On my side."},{"startTime":1098.019,"endTime":1098.559,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1098.589,"endTime":1099.549,"body":"Uh uh Yeah."},{"startTime":1099.549,"endTime":1102.549,"body":"You wanna enable it the best you"},{"startTime":1099.549,"endTime":1102.549,"body":"can, so, yeah, that makes sense."},{"startTime":1102.789,"endTime":1104.939,"body":"It really sounds to me like they're"},{"startTime":1102.789,"endTime":1104.939,"body":"going through this transformation,"},{"startTime":1105.039,"endTime":1106.419,"body":"but it's a step function."},{"startTime":1106.719,"endTime":1106.809,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1106.809,"endTime":1109.939,"body":"It's not a gradual thing, which"},{"startTime":1106.809,"endTime":1109.939,"body":"is it has its advantages, right?"},{"startTime":1109.939,"endTime":1111.409,"body":"Because they're committed, they're all in."},{"startTime":1111.589,"endTime":1112.759,"body":"So it's CCO swim time."},{"startTime":1112.909,"endTime":1113.929,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1114.429,"endTime":1117.854,"body":"Uh Jesus I, like I derailed this"},{"startTime":1114.429,"endTime":1117.854,"body":"because you, we were talking about,"},{"startTime":1117.884,"endTime":1118.904,"body":"we were talking about story mapping."},{"startTime":1119.054,"endTime":1123.814,"body":"So, so what the point I was trying to ask"},{"startTime":1119.054,"endTime":1123.814,"body":"was, Um I, I point, I was trying to make"},{"startTime":1123.964,"endTime":1125.674,"body":"thing I was trying to ask, I have no idea."},{"startTime":1125.944,"endTime":1129.514,"body":"What, what I was going, what I"},{"startTime":1125.944,"endTime":1129.514,"body":"was trying to ask was, you have,"},{"startTime":1130.084,"endTime":1131.704,"body":"you're coming in for the first time."},{"startTime":1132.424,"endTime":1136.939,"body":"They obviously don't have you're doing the"},{"startTime":1132.424,"endTime":1136.939,"body":"roading, but what you said was like, well,"},{"startTime":1136.939,"endTime":1138.799,"body":"we need to figure out the user's journey."},{"startTime":1138.829,"endTime":1141.439,"body":"Like show me the journey"},{"startTime":1138.829,"endTime":1141.439,"body":"map through the application."},{"startTime":1141.709,"endTime":1142.009,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1142.309,"endTime":1146.029,"body":"Well, they don't, they're"},{"startTime":1142.309,"endTime":1146.029,"body":"trying to do story mapping to"},{"startTime":1146.029,"endTime":1147.529,"body":"see their backlog, basically."},{"startTime":1147.559,"endTime":1149.989,"body":"Like that's, if you ask"},{"startTime":1147.559,"endTime":1149.989,"body":"them, they wouldn't know"},{"startTime":1149.994,"endTime":1150.679,"body":"this is what they were doing."},{"startTime":1150.679,"endTime":1152.779,"body":"But that's, that's basically"},{"startTime":1150.679,"endTime":1152.779,"body":"what they're trying to do."},{"startTime":1152.989,"endTime":1155.569,"body":"They're trying to fill out a"},{"startTime":1152.989,"endTime":1155.569,"body":"backlog so that teams can start"},{"startTime":1155.839,"endTime":1157.609,"body":"real process oriented stuff."},{"startTime":1157.669,"endTime":1160.279,"body":"But like, if you back up as an"},{"startTime":1157.669,"endTime":1160.279,"body":"Agile coach, you'll be like, well,"},{"startTime":1160.279,"endTime":1163.159,"body":"what, what, what business function"},{"startTime":1160.279,"endTime":1163.159,"body":"are you really trying to do?"},{"startTime":1163.699,"endTime":1168.049,"body":"You know, well, I don't know how a"},{"startTime":1163.699,"endTime":1168.049,"body":"user goes through my application."},{"startTime":1168.049,"endTime":1171.179,"body":"You like like likely many other"},{"startTime":1168.049,"endTime":1171.179,"body":"companies probably struggle with this."},{"startTime":1171.179,"endTime":1173.759,"body":"They have no idea how the"},{"startTime":1171.179,"endTime":1173.759,"body":"users use their application."},{"startTime":1174.254,"endTime":1174.614,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1174.614,"endTime":1174.954,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":1175.034,"endTime":1179.854,"body":"So would you have to sit them down and"},{"startTime":1175.034,"endTime":1179.854,"body":"establish a basic journey map first"},{"startTime":1179.854,"endTime":1181.954,"body":"before you go into like a storyboard?"},{"startTime":1181.954,"endTime":1183.634,"body":"Or would you try to do"},{"startTime":1181.954,"endTime":1183.634,"body":"it at the same time?"},{"startTime":1183.639,"endTime":1187.204,"body":"No, I, I would do it as the first"},{"startTime":1183.639,"endTime":1187.204,"body":"phase of the, this exercise."},{"startTime":1187.834,"endTime":1189.454,"body":"Um, so it's done jointly."},{"startTime":1189.459,"endTime":1189.464,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1189.844,"endTime":1194.674,"body":"Because oftentimes what you find"},{"startTime":1189.844,"endTime":1194.674,"body":"happens if you do it before then is"},{"startTime":1195.214,"endTime":1197.224,"body":"they don't think through it logically."},{"startTime":1197.284,"endTime":1197.614,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1197.704,"endTime":1198.784,"body":"Or systematically."},{"startTime":1198.784,"endTime":1198.964,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1198.964,"endTime":1201.954,"body":"They'll just come in and say, well people"},{"startTime":1198.964,"endTime":1201.954,"body":"do this, they do this, they do this."},{"startTime":1202.014,"endTime":1202.254,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1202.314,"endTime":1205.014,"body":"And then the dev team sitting"},{"startTime":1202.314,"endTime":1205.014,"body":"there, when you're story mapping,"},{"startTime":1205.014,"endTime":1207.174,"body":"they go, well, you can't do that"},{"startTime":1205.014,"endTime":1207.174,"body":"till you've done this other thing."},{"startTime":1207.514,"endTime":1207.864,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1208.494,"endTime":1210.304,"body":"So you end up spending a lot"},{"startTime":1208.494,"endTime":1210.304,"body":"of time spinning your wheels."},{"startTime":1210.804,"endTime":1213.684,"body":"So it's a lot better if"},{"startTime":1210.804,"endTime":1213.684,"body":"everybody does it together."},{"startTime":1213.684,"endTime":1215.904,"body":"It also fosters that collaborative spirit."},{"startTime":1215.934,"endTime":1216.204,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1216.534,"endTime":1216.804,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1216.894,"endTime":1220.314,"body":"Dude, I'm glad you brought that up"},{"startTime":1216.894,"endTime":1220.314,"body":"because I, one of the things I, one of"},{"startTime":1220.314,"endTime":1224.044,"body":"the things I One of the things I, uh I"},{"startTime":1220.314,"endTime":1224.044,"body":"want to, I like, honestly, we could talk"},{"startTime":1224.044,"endTime":1225.634,"body":"for like two more hours on this topic."},{"startTime":1225.639,"endTime":1227.614,"body":"Cause I'm super interested"},{"startTime":1225.639,"endTime":1227.614,"body":"in how people get set up."},{"startTime":1227.614,"endTime":1231.754,"body":"I think there should be a package of"},{"startTime":1227.614,"endTime":1231.754,"body":"how you start, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1231.814,"endTime":1234.744,"body":"We we could even deploy that"},{"startTime":1231.814,"endTime":1234.744,"body":"package before we even get there."},{"startTime":1234.744,"endTime":1235.554,"body":"It'd be like, Hey, hey, hey."},{"startTime":1235.559,"endTime":1238.754,"body":"Like here's the initial, like here's"},{"startTime":1235.559,"endTime":1238.754,"body":"the initial analysis or whatever."},{"startTime":1239.134,"endTime":1243.954,"body":"Or, or maybe like, here's, here's what"},{"startTime":1239.134,"endTime":1243.954,"body":"we think would work for you, or whatever."},{"startTime":1243.954,"endTime":1247.284,"body":"But then we give them and be like, do"},{"startTime":1243.954,"endTime":1247.284,"body":"this for your company or something."},{"startTime":1247.284,"endTime":1248.694,"body":"I think that'd cool with a package."},{"startTime":1248.844,"endTime":1250.554,"body":"I mean, that sounds ideal, right?"},{"startTime":1250.614,"endTime":1250.764,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1250.764,"endTime":1253.224,"body":"But a lot of times this"},{"startTime":1250.764,"endTime":1253.224,"body":"stuff is very contextual."},{"startTime":1253.554,"endTime":1254.004,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1254.004,"endTime":1257.109,"body":"Well the other thing, the other thing"},{"startTime":1254.004,"endTime":1257.109,"body":"that I wanted to bring up was like what,"},{"startTime":1257.229,"endTime":1263.049,"body":"like the thing about their journey, the"},{"startTime":1257.229,"endTime":1263.049,"body":"user's journey map of the application."},{"startTime":1263.559,"endTime":1266.779,"body":"Uh one of the things that we, we, we"},{"startTime":1263.559,"endTime":1266.779,"body":"wanna do that, we wanna do that for"},{"startTime":1266.784,"endTime":1267.859,"body":"the client we're working with now."},{"startTime":1267.919,"endTime":1268.249,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1268.249,"endTime":1268.849,"body":"And and."},{"startTime":1269.149,"endTime":1273.399,"body":"And what I said was, I was like, well,"},{"startTime":1269.149,"endTime":1273.399,"body":"I want to do, I wanna do a journey map?"},{"startTime":1273.399,"endTime":1277.949,"body":"I was like, but in order to do a"},{"startTime":1273.399,"endTime":1277.949,"body":"journey map that is impactful and that"},{"startTime":1277.949,"endTime":1281.249,"body":"we can use in the future, I was like,"},{"startTime":1277.949,"endTime":1281.249,"body":"the first thing I think we need to sit"},{"startTime":1281.249,"endTime":1286.469,"body":"down and do is we need to figure out"},{"startTime":1281.249,"endTime":1286.469,"body":"who the user personas are that use the"},{"startTime":1286.469,"endTime":1289.079,"body":"system, who are the users of the system."},{"startTime":1289.379,"endTime":1293.249,"body":"And this is like, this is not this"},{"startTime":1289.379,"endTime":1293.249,"body":"is not something like that the, the"},{"startTime":1293.459,"endTime":1295.949,"body":"agility market has cornered or whatever."},{"startTime":1295.954,"endTime":1300.569,"body":"This is a, this is a simple ba task, a"},{"startTime":1295.954,"endTime":1300.569,"body":"task that I should be able to give to"},{"startTime":1300.569,"endTime":1305.399,"body":"any ba off the street agility or not,"},{"startTime":1300.569,"endTime":1305.399,"body":"and be like, figure out who the user"},{"startTime":1305.399,"endTime":1308.189,"body":"personas are of the system and they"},{"startTime":1305.399,"endTime":1308.189,"body":"should be able to run with it and do it."},{"startTime":1308.419,"endTime":1311.299,"body":"This is, again, this is the cool"},{"startTime":1308.419,"endTime":1311.299,"body":"thing about, this is the cool"},{"startTime":1311.299,"endTime":1314.669,"body":"thing about being on the project,"},{"startTime":1311.299,"endTime":1314.669,"body":"all this stuff is new to her."},{"startTime":1315.269,"endTime":1318.239,"body":"So I'm like, here I was like,"},{"startTime":1315.269,"endTime":1318.239,"body":"we're gonna meet with the business,"},{"startTime":1318.659,"endTime":1320.069,"body":"we're gonna discuss user personas."},{"startTime":1320.444,"endTime":1323.214,"body":"And we're gonna basically"},{"startTime":1320.444,"endTime":1323.214,"body":"listen to what they say."},{"startTime":1323.424,"endTime":1324.084,"body":"Write it out."},{"startTime":1324.234,"endTime":1327.874,"body":"I came up with a template that honestly,"},{"startTime":1324.234,"endTime":1327.874,"body":"I just, I, I, I found like two, three"},{"startTime":1327.874,"endTime":1331.014,"body":"templates online and I just copied"},{"startTime":1327.874,"endTime":1331.014,"body":"them and I was like, well, this is,"},{"startTime":1331.014,"endTime":1332.304,"body":"this is what we really need to know."},{"startTime":1332.724,"endTime":1335.484,"body":"And and I, I found on the information"},{"startTime":1332.724,"endTime":1335.484,"body":"and I took some notes in the meeting"},{"startTime":1335.484,"endTime":1336.684,"body":"and she took some notes in the meeting."},{"startTime":1336.744,"endTime":1340.608,"body":"And and then I was like,"},{"startTime":1336.744,"endTime":1340.608,"body":"all right, here's the notes."},{"startTime":1341.388,"endTime":1342.918,"body":"Write me some user personas."},{"startTime":1342.978,"endTime":1345.943,"body":"And then she's like, oh,"},{"startTime":1342.978,"endTime":1345.943,"body":"I need some more time."},{"startTime":1345.943,"endTime":1348.283,"body":"Cause I, I haven't really"},{"startTime":1345.943,"endTime":1348.283,"body":"done this before, you know?"},{"startTime":1348.283,"endTime":1350.173,"body":"And I'm like, good, look."},{"startTime":1350.173,"endTime":1350.623,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":1350.653,"endTime":1351.013,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":1351.018,"endTime":1351.943,"body":"That you haven't done it before."},{"startTime":1352.393,"endTime":1355.364,"body":"Come up with like, write a first draft,"},{"startTime":1352.393,"endTime":1355.364,"body":"figure it out, and then we'll meet again."},{"startTime":1355.603,"endTime":1359.053,"body":"We'll look over what you wrote and, and,"},{"startTime":1355.603,"endTime":1359.053,"body":"and then we'll revise it or whatever."},{"startTime":1359.323,"endTime":1361.173,"body":"There is a really cool canvas out there."},{"startTime":1361.173,"endTime":1364.073,"body":"I believe it's Roman pickler"},{"startTime":1361.173,"endTime":1364.073,"body":"that has it has written it."},{"startTime":1364.313,"endTime":1365.633,"body":"How to write a user persona."},{"startTime":1366.143,"endTime":1366.563,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":1366.623,"endTime":1368.183,"body":"And it's, it's just a one sheet wonder."},{"startTime":1368.183,"endTime":1369.653,"body":"Basically you fill it out."},{"startTime":1370.148,"endTime":1372.758,"body":"And give the persona a fictitious name."},{"startTime":1372.998,"endTime":1374.978,"body":"You know, ideally it"},{"startTime":1372.998,"endTime":1374.978,"body":"should be a real name."},{"startTime":1374.978,"endTime":1375.668,"body":"It'll be cool."},{"startTime":1375.728,"endTime":1375.968,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1376.058,"endTime":1379.358,"body":"You know if you were looking at"},{"startTime":1376.058,"endTime":1379.358,"body":"like, the owner of the company doing"},{"startTime":1379.358,"endTime":1382.148,"body":"something, you could say, well,"},{"startTime":1379.358,"endTime":1382.148,"body":"let's just call that person Fred."},{"startTime":1382.328,"endTime":1382.538,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":1382.538,"endTime":1383.11,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1383.258,"endTime":1385.448,"body":"Um, but yeah, it could be, it"},{"startTime":1383.258,"endTime":1385.448,"body":"could be fictitious as well."},{"startTime":1385.628,"endTime":1388.988,"body":"The thing about personas is you"},{"startTime":1385.628,"endTime":1388.988,"body":"start there, but you know, as you"},{"startTime":1388.993,"endTime":1393.548,"body":"get more and more experience with"},{"startTime":1388.993,"endTime":1393.548,"body":"using them, you start incorporating"},{"startTime":1393.548,"endTime":1395.138,"body":"things like negative personas."},{"startTime":1395.288,"endTime":1395.468,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1395.468,"endTime":1396.758,"body":"She always have those Right."},{"startTime":1396.758,"endTime":1397.478,"body":"In any system."},{"startTime":1397.478,"endTime":1398.138,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1398.318,"endTime":1400.118,"body":"Um, and then shouldn't overlook those."},{"startTime":1400.328,"endTime":1404.288,"body":"I, I sometimes see people"},{"startTime":1400.328,"endTime":1404.288,"body":"writing stories like as a system."},{"startTime":1404.293,"endTime":1404.498,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1404.503,"endTime":1404.853,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1405.393,"endTime":1405.993,"body":"And I'm like, okay."},{"startTime":1406.833,"endTime":1409.383,"body":"The word persona has"},{"startTime":1406.833,"endTime":1409.383,"body":"the word person in it."},{"startTime":1409.413,"endTime":1409.633,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":1409.893,"endTime":1412.203,"body":"You can ask a persona questions."},{"startTime":1412.383,"endTime":1414.093,"body":"You can't ask a system question."},{"startTime":1414.303,"endTime":1415.473,"body":"Oh, you had me as so stop with that."},{"startTime":1415.533,"endTime":1416.733,"body":"You had me as a system."},{"startTime":1416.733,"endTime":1417.693,"body":"Like, I'm, I'm out."},{"startTime":1417.813,"endTime":1418.593,"body":"I can't, I can't."},{"startTime":1418.593,"endTime":1418.793,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1418.798,"endTime":1421.563,"body":"I see, I see those kinds"},{"startTime":1418.798,"endTime":1421.563,"body":"of, I'm gonna anti buttons."},{"startTime":1421.623,"endTime":1424.873,"body":"I gotta tick, I'm gonna hide into"},{"startTime":1421.623,"endTime":1424.873,"body":"the table right quick as a system."},{"startTime":1425.443,"endTime":1430.143,"body":"There is some, like a, like in, in"},{"startTime":1425.443,"endTime":1430.143,"body":"a couple years, some, some, some"},{"startTime":1430.143,"endTime":1433.413,"body":"random engineer or whatever's gonna"},{"startTime":1430.143,"endTime":1433.413,"body":"find this podcast be like, well, I'm"},{"startTime":1433.418,"endTime":1435.453,"body":"gonna error write you angry tweets."},{"startTime":1435.453,"endTime":1437.343,"body":"It's perfectly valid system."},{"startTime":1437.343,"endTime":1438.453,"body":"Like, no, it's not."},{"startTime":1438.603,"endTime":1439.263,"body":"No, it's not."},{"startTime":1439.893,"endTime":1440.553,"body":"It's terrible."},{"startTime":1440.553,"endTime":1441.583,"body":"And you're terrible, right."},{"startTime":1441.633,"endTime":1441.983,"body":"Jesus."},{"startTime":1442.483,"endTime":1446.333,"body":"I, I, I used to I used to get"},{"startTime":1442.483,"endTime":1446.333,"body":"into some really knockdown,"},{"startTime":1446.333,"endTime":1447.743,"body":"drag out fights with that one."},{"startTime":1447.773,"endTime":1451.158,"body":"Like, dude, you can't"},{"startTime":1447.773,"endTime":1451.158,"body":"it's not a user story."},{"startTime":1451.218,"endTime":1453.678,"body":"I don't, I try I try not to use"},{"startTime":1451.218,"endTime":1453.678,"body":"the word user when I'm saying"},{"startTime":1453.678,"endTime":1454.728,"body":"it's just a story, right?"},{"startTime":1454.728,"endTime":1456.138,"body":"Cause it's the object in the system."},{"startTime":1456.548,"endTime":1459.188,"body":"But like I get the"},{"startTime":1456.548,"endTime":1459.188,"body":"perspective of writing a."},{"startTime":1460.163,"endTime":1463.073,"body":"Story from a user perspective,"},{"startTime":1460.163,"endTime":1463.073,"body":"therefore to user story, whatever."},{"startTime":1463.643,"endTime":1469.103,"body":"But I was like, listen, the, the object"},{"startTime":1463.643,"endTime":1469.103,"body":"that we're writing, it doesn't matter"},{"startTime":1469.103,"endTime":1473.093,"body":"what it is, bug story, whatever you wanna"},{"startTime":1469.103,"endTime":1473.093,"body":"call it, requirement doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1473.543,"endTime":1478.223,"body":"It has to have value to, it has"},{"startTime":1473.543,"endTime":1478.223,"body":"to have value, it has to have the"},{"startTime":1478.223,"endTime":1481.613,"body":"ability to be deployed and have value"},{"startTime":1478.223,"endTime":1481.613,"body":"immediately when we're done with it."},{"startTime":1482.183,"endTime":1487.253,"body":"So if you're talking about a"},{"startTime":1482.183,"endTime":1487.253,"body":"backend process that does something"},{"startTime":1487.253,"endTime":1492.773,"body":"automatically to sanitize database"},{"startTime":1487.253,"endTime":1492.773,"body":"records or run some kind of job that"},{"startTime":1492.773,"endTime":1497.413,"body":"looks in a, looks in a, looks in a"},{"startTime":1492.773,"endTime":1497.413,"body":"folder like I, I, perfect example."},{"startTime":1497.413,"endTime":1498.343,"body":"I'll give you the perfect example."},{"startTime":1498.943,"endTime":1503.113,"body":"Uh I worked on integrations with"},{"startTime":1498.943,"endTime":1503.113,"body":"financial accounting systems"},{"startTime":1503.233,"endTime":1504.223,"body":"and here's what would happen."},{"startTime":1504.463,"endTime":1505.123,"body":"Here's what would happen."},{"startTime":1505.853,"endTime":1507.233,"body":"This is in trucking industry."},{"startTime":1507.323,"endTime":1507.683,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":1508.163,"endTime":1512.723,"body":"So our system would get"},{"startTime":1508.163,"endTime":1512.723,"body":"invoice invoice was an invoice."},{"startTime":1512.783,"endTime":1513.593,"body":"I don't remember what it was."},{"startTime":1513.593,"endTime":1517.103,"body":"It, it was some kind of, it was some kind"},{"startTime":1513.593,"endTime":1517.103,"body":"of oh, maybe it was a proof of delivery."},{"startTime":1517.253,"endTime":1518.093,"body":"I don't remember what it was."},{"startTime":1518.243,"endTime":1521.723,"body":"Anyway, it was some kind of thing"},{"startTime":1518.243,"endTime":1521.723,"body":"that said the goods have been"},{"startTime":1521.753,"endTime":1523.943,"body":"delivered to you, the customer."},{"startTime":1524.663,"endTime":1528.523,"body":"And then something happened, it went to"},{"startTime":1524.663,"endTime":1528.523,"body":"their financial accounting system and"},{"startTime":1528.528,"endTime":1530.943,"body":"then that, that, it must have been a"},{"startTime":1528.528,"endTime":1530.943,"body":"bill of lading or something like that."},{"startTime":1530.973,"endTime":1532.453,"body":"Bill of lading or bill of materials."},{"startTime":1532.453,"endTime":1533.703,"body":"I think something, I think"},{"startTime":1532.453,"endTime":1533.703,"body":"it was a bill of lading."},{"startTime":1533.703,"endTime":1533.983,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1534.163,"endTime":1538.103,"body":"The bill of lading would, would be"},{"startTime":1534.163,"endTime":1538.103,"body":"recorded in our system and then it would"},{"startTime":1538.103,"endTime":1540.023,"body":"be passed to the other person's system."},{"startTime":1540.443,"endTime":1545.388,"body":"And and once it's passed to their"},{"startTime":1540.443,"endTime":1545.388,"body":"financial accounting system, like"},{"startTime":1545.478,"endTime":1547.749,"body":"we, the vendor, like we don't care."},{"startTime":1547.838,"endTime":1550.868,"body":"All we know is it's been delivered to"},{"startTime":1547.838,"endTime":1550.868,"body":"the customer who's gonna pay for it?"},{"startTime":1550.868,"endTime":1551.043,"body":"It."},{"startTime":1551.493,"endTime":1556.533,"body":"However like companies with financial"},{"startTime":1551.493,"endTime":1556.533,"body":"accounting, like with Great Plains or"},{"startTime":1556.533,"endTime":1559.403,"body":"with whatever, QuickBooks, whatever,"},{"startTime":1556.533,"endTime":1559.403,"body":"whatever else they have, right?"},{"startTime":1559.803,"endTime":1563.843,"body":"They, they want to, they're very"},{"startTime":1559.803,"endTime":1563.843,"body":"if they're going as far as to"},{"startTime":1563.843,"endTime":1567.083,"body":"take our records and to import"},{"startTime":1563.843,"endTime":1567.083,"body":"'em into their system, they want"},{"startTime":1567.083,"endTime":1568.643,"body":"the systems to be exactly similar."},{"startTime":1569.363,"endTime":1574.203,"body":"So the system that we had, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1569.363,"endTime":1574.203,"body":"forget why we even brought this up."},{"startTime":1574.203,"endTime":1578.158,"body":"By the time I get to this end of this"},{"startTime":1574.203,"endTime":1578.158,"body":"story, the system that we had worked out,"},{"startTime":1578.158,"endTime":1585.018,"body":"and this is 15 years ago, , don't, like"},{"startTime":1578.158,"endTime":1585.018,"body":"in, in, in modern modern, modern, the,"},{"startTime":1585.138,"endTime":1588.348,"body":"it, it was 15 years ago that I worked"},{"startTime":1585.138,"endTime":1588.348,"body":"in the system, but the system probably"},{"startTime":1588.348,"endTime":1590.388,"body":"is 25 years old, like architecture."},{"startTime":1590.898,"endTime":1594.878,"body":"Um so it should just be an API"},{"startTime":1590.898,"endTime":1594.878,"body":"call system system, but we'll"},{"startTime":1594.878,"endTime":1595.778,"body":"forget about that for a second."},{"startTime":1595.928,"endTime":1597.008,"body":"This is the way the system was built."},{"startTime":1597.368,"endTime":1603.648,"body":"It was it was our system every day"},{"startTime":1597.368,"endTime":1603.648,"body":"would drop a file in a secured FTP"},{"startTime":1604.278,"endTime":1609.048,"body":"of basically like a CSV export of"},{"startTime":1604.278,"endTime":1609.048,"body":"all that customer's records, entire"},{"startTime":1609.048,"endTime":1610.758,"body":"dump of the customer's records."},{"startTime":1610.763,"endTime":1610.818,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1611.508,"endTime":1616.818,"body":"And the customer system would pick"},{"startTime":1611.508,"endTime":1616.818,"body":"it up, process it, and drop it"},{"startTime":1616.823,"endTime":1619.758,"body":"into like, I don't remember, like"},{"startTime":1616.823,"endTime":1619.758,"body":"a return subfolder or something."},{"startTime":1619.763,"endTime":1620.658,"body":"I don't remember what it was."},{"startTime":1620.658,"endTime":1621.738,"body":"I, I can't, I can't recall."},{"startTime":1621.918,"endTime":1624.138,"body":"But anyway, our system"},{"startTime":1621.918,"endTime":1624.138,"body":"would take the return file."},{"startTime":1624.758,"endTime":1628.958,"body":"And add it to our system so that like"},{"startTime":1624.758,"endTime":1628.958,"body":"we could record that, like the customer"},{"startTime":1628.958,"endTime":1630.848,"body":"paid those invoices that we have in ours."},{"startTime":1630.938,"endTime":1633.188,"body":"So basically the, their,"},{"startTime":1630.938,"endTime":1633.188,"body":"their great planes system."},{"startTime":1633.218,"endTime":1634.088,"body":"I remember it was great."},{"startTime":1634.088,"endTime":1637.838,"body":"That's the only thing I remember that's"},{"startTime":1634.088,"endTime":1637.838,"body":"correct in this story is that it was great"},{"startTime":1637.838,"endTime":1643.038,"body":"planes we were interfacing with and their"},{"startTime":1637.838,"endTime":1643.038,"body":"great planes export would chew up those"},{"startTime":1643.043,"endTime":1647.958,"body":"files, uh record them in our system and"},{"startTime":1643.043,"endTime":1647.958,"body":"so that our two systems would be sync."},{"startTime":1648.138,"endTime":1650.738,"body":"Like in a modern system, you"},{"startTime":1648.138,"endTime":1650.738,"body":"just build an API and Yeah."},{"startTime":1650.988,"endTime":1651.258,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1651.258,"endTime":1652.428,"body":"They just hit it and it'd be done."},{"startTime":1652.428,"endTime":1652.608,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1653.148,"endTime":1655.249,"body":"You know, I can't remember"},{"startTime":1653.148,"endTime":1655.249,"body":"why I started with that story."},{"startTime":1655.398,"endTime":1657.448,"body":"We're talking about writing user stories."},{"startTime":1658.128,"endTime":1658.488,"body":"Yeah, writing."},{"startTime":1658.488,"endTime":1658.878,"body":"Huge story."},{"startTime":1658.878,"endTime":1659.598,"body":"So, so, yeah."},{"startTime":1659.598,"endTime":1660.709,"body":"So, so that's exactly right."},{"startTime":1660.858,"endTime":1666.168,"body":"In that case, I, I I recall"},{"startTime":1660.858,"endTime":1666.168,"body":"the, the knockdown fights with"},{"startTime":1666.168,"endTime":1670.698,"body":"development to be like, the system"},{"startTime":1666.168,"endTime":1670.698,"body":"is processing out the F T P folder."},{"startTime":1670.698,"endTime":1674.548,"body":"Like, I don't need a user in this,"},{"startTime":1670.698,"endTime":1674.548,"body":"but like, no dude, you need a user."},{"startTime":1675.513,"endTime":1680.013,"body":"Because the user, like the financial"},{"startTime":1675.513,"endTime":1680.013,"body":"accounting user, is the one that cares"},{"startTime":1680.013,"endTime":1684.663,"body":"about marking the end, is paid and syncing"},{"startTime":1680.013,"endTime":1684.663,"body":"our system with that, with that payment."},{"startTime":1684.993,"endTime":1688.473,"body":"And you know, like for whatever"},{"startTime":1684.993,"endTime":1688.473,"body":"reason, like I, I don't, I don't,"},{"startTime":1688.863,"endTime":1691.523,"body":"I don't remember this was so many"},{"startTime":1688.863,"endTime":1691.523,"body":"years ago, I don't remember the"},{"startTime":1691.593,"endTime":1692.618,"body":"I haven't been in so many fights."},{"startTime":1692.878,"endTime":1693.418,"body":"I don't really remember."},{"startTime":1693.608,"endTime":1695.518,"body":"Like I, I got hit in the head a lot."},{"startTime":1695.518,"endTime":1696.478,"body":"I don't really remember."},{"startTime":1696.558,"endTime":1699.493,"body":"But I, I, I remember like they"},{"startTime":1696.558,"endTime":1699.493,"body":"sticking to their guns at me."},{"startTime":1699.493,"endTime":1703.333,"body":"Like, no, it's as a system because"},{"startTime":1699.493,"endTime":1703.333,"body":"the system is automatically"},{"startTime":1703.333,"endTime":1705.253,"body":"processing it, you know?"},{"startTime":1706.183,"endTime":1706.453,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1706.453,"endTime":1709.903,"body":"It's a, it's tough to, to fight that one,"},{"startTime":1706.453,"endTime":1709.903,"body":"but I usually just say, well, why do we"},{"startTime":1709.903,"endTime":1711.793,"body":"even bother with this particular story?"},{"startTime":1711.793,"endTime":1712.003,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1712.183,"endTime":1713.593,"body":"What's the business benefit?"},{"startTime":1713.833,"endTime":1714.883,"body":"Who is it benefiting?"},{"startTime":1714.913,"endTime":1715.543,"body":"Wiva?"},{"startTime":1715.543,"endTime":1716.413,"body":"Okay, now we're getting there."},{"startTime":1716.773,"endTime":1717.163,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1717.673,"endTime":1721.543,"body":"The other thing that I, I see"},{"startTime":1717.673,"endTime":1721.543,"body":"quite often is, As a system, I"},{"startTime":1721.543,"endTime":1725.863,"body":"want to increase the number of"},{"startTime":1721.543,"endTime":1725.863,"body":"CPUs on our virtual machine, right?"},{"startTime":1726.013,"endTime":1729.013,"body":"It's like, well, what's the"},{"startTime":1726.013,"endTime":1729.013,"body":"business benefit of doing that?"},{"startTime":1729.643,"endTime":1734.143,"body":"So can't you rephrase that in a way that"},{"startTime":1729.643,"endTime":1734.143,"body":"illustrates the business value of that?"},{"startTime":1734.143,"endTime":1738.943,"body":"Like, as a user, I would like quicker"},{"startTime":1734.143,"endTime":1738.943,"body":"performance from the system, so"},{"startTime":1738.948,"endTime":1742.153,"body":"therefore you're adding more CPUs,"},{"startTime":1738.948,"endTime":1742.153,"body":"likewise with adding extra disc"},{"startTime":1742.153,"endTime":1744.343,"body":"drives and storage and whatever else."},{"startTime":1744.493,"endTime":1746.383,"body":"Sorry, as the system SY"},{"startTime":1744.493,"endTime":1746.383,"body":"system's gotta do it."},{"startTime":1746.713,"endTime":1747.283,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1747.288,"endTime":1747.883,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1747.883,"endTime":1748.843,"body":"System's the user."},{"startTime":1749.443,"endTime":1750.253,"body":"That's, yeah."},{"startTime":1750.703,"endTime":1753.643,"body":"We've reached, we've reached the"},{"startTime":1750.703,"endTime":1753.643,"body":"future, the future of ai, right?"},{"startTime":1754.143,"endTime":1754.433,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1754.933,"endTime":1759.353,"body":"But yeah we definitely set up a kind"},{"startTime":1754.933,"endTime":1759.353,"body":"of a mock session where we go through"},{"startTime":1759.353,"endTime":1763.053,"body":"a whole entire story planning or"},{"startTime":1759.353,"endTime":1763.053,"body":"journey map, whatever you call, right?"},{"startTime":1763.063,"endTime":1763.303,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1763.663,"endTime":1766.153,"body":"Even that's gonna take more than"},{"startTime":1763.663,"endTime":1766.153,"body":"a couple hours probably, right?"},{"startTime":1766.158,"endTime":1771.093,"body":"Because we're doing this as a learning"},{"startTime":1766.158,"endTime":1771.093,"body":"exercise so definitely do that."},{"startTime":1771.723,"endTime":1775.353,"body":"How, like how much time do you normally,"},{"startTime":1771.723,"endTime":1775.353,"body":"like how, like if you were going into"},{"startTime":1775.353,"endTime":1778.323,"body":"a, this is a small company,  if you're"},{"startTime":1775.353,"endTime":1778.323,"body":"going to a small company and they didn't"},{"startTime":1778.323,"endTime":1782.943,"body":"have a backlog, like how much time"},{"startTime":1778.323,"endTime":1782.943,"body":"would you tell them to reserve for this?"},{"startTime":1783.443,"endTime":1787.543,"body":"Um, if you gotta do this right,"},{"startTime":1783.443,"endTime":1787.543,"body":"it's gonna take you at least a day."},{"startTime":1787.548,"endTime":1787.723,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1787.903,"endTime":1790.808,"body":"So if the objective is to get to the"},{"startTime":1787.903,"endTime":1790.808,"body":"point where you have stuff in your"},{"startTime":1790.808,"endTime":1792.338,"body":"backlog, you can get there in a day."},{"startTime":1792.728,"endTime":1792.998,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1793.058,"endTime":1795.608,"body":"If the objective is to"},{"startTime":1793.058,"endTime":1795.608,"body":"have a roadmap out Yeah."},{"startTime":1795.758,"endTime":1798.338,"body":"With dependencies and release"},{"startTime":1795.758,"endTime":1798.338,"body":"plans and whatnot, yeah."},{"startTime":1798.398,"endTime":1800.708,"body":"It might take you a little bit"},{"startTime":1798.398,"endTime":1800.708,"body":"longer, but there's no reason to"},{"startTime":1800.818,"endTime":1802.138,"body":"couple those two things together."},{"startTime":1802.198,"endTime":1802.468,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1802.498,"endTime":1804.418,"body":"So you could say, let's"},{"startTime":1802.498,"endTime":1804.418,"body":"just do this for a day."},{"startTime":1804.418,"endTime":1804.428,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1804.838,"endTime":1808.138,"body":"And come back, have a couple"},{"startTime":1804.838,"endTime":1808.138,"body":"sessions or whatever to Yeah."},{"startTime":1808.768,"endTime":1808.888,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1808.888,"endTime":1809.908,"body":"That's what, that's what I'm thinking."},{"startTime":1809.908,"endTime":1810.478,"body":"That's what I'm thinking."},{"startTime":1810.478,"endTime":1814.198,"body":"I, I, that's what I, I've, I've"},{"startTime":1810.478,"endTime":1814.198,"body":"kind of, I've kind of prepped them."},{"startTime":1814.633,"endTime":1816.823,"body":"With, with that, with exactly"},{"startTime":1814.633,"endTime":1816.823,"body":"what you just said, I was"},{"startTime":1816.823,"endTime":1818.533,"body":"like, I'm gonna fly into town."},{"startTime":1819.073,"endTime":1821.833,"body":"And then on the, like a, like the"},{"startTime":1819.073,"endTime":1821.833,"body":"first day I get there, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1821.833,"endTime":1824.863,"body":"be like, I'm gonna kick open the"},{"startTime":1821.833,"endTime":1824.863,"body":"door or kick open the wall like the"},{"startTime":1824.868,"endTime":1826.783,"body":"Kool-Aid man, and be like, I'm here."},{"startTime":1826.843,"endTime":1829.813,"body":"Like, we all need to sit in"},{"startTime":1826.843,"endTime":1829.813,"body":"a room together for a day."},{"startTime":1829.843,"endTime":1833.373,"body":"Like, I'm gonna take over conference"},{"startTime":1829.843,"endTime":1833.373,"body":"room for a day and We're going to"},{"startTime":1833.793,"endTime":1838.593,"body":"like hardcore talk about the roadmap"},{"startTime":1833.793,"endTime":1838.593,"body":"and maybe start breaking things"},{"startTime":1838.593,"endTime":1839.763,"body":"down on the roadmap or whatever."},{"startTime":1840.153,"endTime":1842.513,"body":"And then we'll maybe we'll"},{"startTime":1840.153,"endTime":1842.513,"body":"stay in the conference room the"},{"startTime":1842.518,"endTime":1846.983,"body":"next day or two and have people"},{"startTime":1842.518,"endTime":1846.983,"body":"come in and out and in and out."},{"startTime":1846.983,"endTime":1849.293,"body":"Cuz I mean, people have meetings whatever."},{"startTime":1849.293,"endTime":1850.403,"body":"People have stuff they have to get to."},{"startTime":1850.523,"endTime":1853.173,"body":"But that's, that's how I think"},{"startTime":1850.523,"endTime":1853.173,"body":"we're gonna go about it, I think."},{"startTime":1853.173,"endTime":1858.063,"body":"And, and I think it'll be the, the"},{"startTime":1853.173,"endTime":1858.063,"body":"difficult part for me, difficult part"},{"startTime":1858.063,"endTime":1861.663,"body":"for me and like this is something a"},{"startTime":1858.063,"endTime":1861.663,"body":"actually like maybe you can help with."},{"startTime":1861.663,"endTime":1862.983,"body":"Like, this is a tough one for me."},{"startTime":1863.193,"endTime":1870.483,"body":"Difficult part for me is I want my"},{"startTime":1863.193,"endTime":1870.483,"body":"scrum master to facilitate the session."},{"startTime":1871.173,"endTime":1871.563,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1872.463,"endTime":1877.023,"body":"This requires me to sit"},{"startTime":1872.463,"endTime":1877.023,"body":"back and let her facilitate."},{"startTime":1877.523,"endTime":1877.913,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1877.918,"endTime":1878.663,"body":"You know what I'm saying?"},{"startTime":1878.663,"endTime":1879.443,"body":"You know what I'm saying right now?"},{"startTime":1879.448,"endTime":1880.083,"body":"Like I Exactly."},{"startTime":1880.463,"endTime":1880.913,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1880.918,"endTime":1880.963,"body":"Like."},{"startTime":1881.463,"endTime":1882.993,"body":"What, like what do I need to do?"},{"startTime":1883.293,"endTime":1885.903,"body":"How can I check myself to make sure"},{"startTime":1883.293,"endTime":1885.903,"body":"that I'm letting her facilitate and"},{"startTime":1885.903,"endTime":1887.673,"body":"I'm not jumping in every few seconds?"},{"startTime":1887.673,"endTime":1889.443,"body":"Cuz that is a tough part for me."},{"startTime":1889.943,"endTime":1890.243,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1890.248,"endTime":1893.243,"body":"I mean, that's gonna require that"},{"startTime":1890.248,"endTime":1893.243,"body":"level of self-control, right?"},{"startTime":1893.243,"endTime":1897.868,"body":"So when you feel like you, you want to"},{"startTime":1893.243,"endTime":1897.868,"body":"jump in just exercise, self-restraint,"},{"startTime":1898.318,"endTime":1899.638,"body":"just say she's got this, right."},{"startTime":1899.638,"endTime":1899.639,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1899.644,"endTime":1900.338,"body":"Have confidence."},{"startTime":1900.508,"endTime":1900.658,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1900.663,"endTime":1902.908,"body":"And, and she, she may"},{"startTime":1900.663,"endTime":1902.908,"body":"stumble, that's okay."},{"startTime":1903.358,"endTime":1906.957,"body":"But then, because you're gonna schedule"},{"startTime":1903.358,"endTime":1906.957,"body":"in these frequent breaks, right?"},{"startTime":1906.988,"endTime":1907.198,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1907.288,"endTime":1909.698,"body":"During the break you can recalibrate"},{"startTime":1907.288,"endTime":1909.698,"body":"with Oh yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1910.018,"endTime":1910.618,"body":"That's a good one."},{"startTime":1910.707,"endTime":1910.977,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1911.428,"endTime":1913.528,"body":"Um, I just wanna touch"},{"startTime":1911.428,"endTime":1913.528,"body":"on the touring as well."},{"startTime":1913.528,"endTime":1915.737,"body":"I think it's awesome that you're"},{"startTime":1913.528,"endTime":1915.737,"body":"gonna be in person with mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1915.737,"endTime":1916.757,"body":"With all stakeholders."},{"startTime":1916.757,"endTime":1916.878,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1917.148,"endTime":1920.477,"body":"Um, but as far as capturing the"},{"startTime":1917.148,"endTime":1920.477,"body":"backlog, you touched on it earlier"},{"startTime":1920.477,"endTime":1923.047,"body":"on in, into a system of some kind."},{"startTime":1923.422,"endTime":1925.132,"body":"So there are a couple of"},{"startTime":1923.422,"endTime":1925.132,"body":"things you can do there."},{"startTime":1925.193,"endTime":1928.733,"body":"Um, one of the things I did last"},{"startTime":1925.193,"endTime":1928.733,"body":"time, I did this story mapping"},{"startTime":1929.003,"endTime":1930.023,"body":"right here in the office mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1930.353,"endTime":1935.562,"body":"Was we used, we used a, a, a"},{"startTime":1930.353,"endTime":1935.562,"body":"wall and we used yellow stickies."},{"startTime":1935.952,"endTime":1939.023,"body":"And at the end of the session when"},{"startTime":1935.952,"endTime":1939.023,"body":"everybody was happy with it mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1939.362,"endTime":1944.082,"body":"We had swim layer for MVP and MTSS"},{"startTime":1939.362,"endTime":1944.082,"body":"and everything else, and we'd sequence"},{"startTime":1944.082,"endTime":1946.992,"body":"that, our releases, when everything"},{"startTime":1944.082,"endTime":1946.992,"body":"was done, I just went around and"},{"startTime":1946.997,"endTime":1948.552,"body":"took some pictures of the wall."},{"startTime":1948.582,"endTime":1948.822,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1948.912,"endTime":1952.213,"body":"But I didn't take pictures"},{"startTime":1948.912,"endTime":1952.213,"body":"with just the camera like app."},{"startTime":1952.302,"endTime":1954.552,"body":"I took pictures with a,"},{"startTime":1952.302,"endTime":1954.552,"body":"an app called PostIt."},{"startTime":1955.003,"endTime":1955.302,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1955.302,"endTime":1955.753,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1955.842,"endTime":1956.322,"body":"I have that."},{"startTime":1956.322,"endTime":1960.102,"body":"It creates, it creates, actually"},{"startTime":1956.322,"endTime":1960.102,"body":"creates the yellow stick electronically."},{"startTime":1960.102,"endTime":1960.103,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1960.108,"endTime":1961.182,"body":"Which is awesome."},{"startTime":1961.242,"endTime":1961.602,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1961.652,"endTime":1963.752,"body":"It says double entry and"},{"startTime":1961.652,"endTime":1963.752,"body":"all of that good stuff."},{"startTime":1963.752,"endTime":1963.962,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1963.962,"endTime":1964.322,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1964.382,"endTime":1965.103,"body":"I have that app."},{"startTime":1965.103,"endTime":1965.703,"body":"That's pretty cool."},{"startTime":1965.703,"endTime":1969.933,"body":"I don't, I hardly ever use it, but it's,"},{"startTime":1965.703,"endTime":1969.933,"body":"it's, it was very effective the few"},{"startTime":1969.933,"endTime":1972.362,"body":"times I did use it and I don't know why."},{"startTime":1972.362,"endTime":1974.083,"body":"I don't, I actually no, I probably do."},{"startTime":1974.263,"endTime":1977.293,"body":"Like I don't use it cause like I'm"},{"startTime":1974.263,"endTime":1977.293,"body":"never with people physically anymore."},{"startTime":1977.503,"endTime":1977.853,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1977.953,"endTime":1979.692,"body":"Um, but yeah, it was very effective."},{"startTime":1980.142,"endTime":1980.412,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1980.412,"endTime":1983.172,"body":"The only tip there is that"},{"startTime":1980.412,"endTime":1983.172,"body":"don't use dark colored stickies."},{"startTime":1983.672,"endTime":1985.532,"body":"It doesn't see those on contrast, man."},{"startTime":1985.532,"endTime":1988.622,"body":"But, um the other thing, if you"},{"startTime":1985.532,"endTime":1988.622,"body":"had to ever do this remotely,"},{"startTime":1989.012,"endTime":1990.422,"body":"which is of course not ideal."},{"startTime":1990.512,"endTime":1990.662,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1990.752,"endTime":1993.412,"body":"Um, there are systems out"},{"startTime":1990.752,"endTime":1993.412,"body":"there that you can use."},{"startTime":1993.412,"endTime":1995.092,"body":"There's one called stories on board."},{"startTime":1995.097,"endTime":1995.222,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1995.607,"endTime":1998.262,"body":"Which is kinda like a virtual whiteboard."},{"startTime":1998.652,"endTime":2000.752,"body":"Um, and, and I think"},{"startTime":1998.652,"endTime":2000.752,"body":"they have a free trial."},{"startTime":2001.112,"endTime":2004.232,"body":"That's the only way I've ever used it to"},{"startTime":2001.112,"endTime":2004.232,"body":"be honest, is just use the free trial."},{"startTime":2004.472,"endTime":2009.057,"body":"You get a month and after that you"},{"startTime":2004.472,"endTime":2009.057,"body":"either pay up or, or, or lose it."},{"startTime":2009.237,"endTime":2010.527,"body":"But, but that's enough for me."},{"startTime":2010.527,"endTime":2010.767,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2010.767,"endTime":2013.758,"body":"So you get the, the"},{"startTime":2010.767,"endTime":2013.758,"body":"full use of the product."},{"startTime":2014.207,"endTime":2015.377,"body":"It's not like a cut down use."},{"startTime":2015.377,"endTime":2015.587,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2015.587,"endTime":2016.337,"body":"So that's awesome."},{"startTime":2016.667,"endTime":2017.477,"body":"Sign up for it."},{"startTime":2017.477,"endTime":2019.787,"body":"That's the only thing is, is you"},{"startTime":2017.477,"endTime":2019.787,"body":"have to sign up with your email."},{"startTime":2020.147,"endTime":2020.867,"body":"That's okay."},{"startTime":2021.107,"endTime":2023.207,"body":"Um, brilliant tool."},{"startTime":2023.207,"endTime":2026.567,"body":"Another one is aha, which again"},{"startTime":2023.207,"endTime":2026.567,"body":"has a free trial for a month."},{"startTime":2026.777,"endTime":2027.137,"body":"Oh man."},{"startTime":2027.137,"endTime":2027.557,"body":"Aha."},{"startTime":2028.057,"endTime":2030.907,"body":"But it integrates with whatever"},{"startTime":2028.057,"endTime":2030.907,"body":"tool set you're using though."},{"startTime":2031.407,"endTime":2031.767,"body":"I can't."},{"startTime":2032.187,"endTime":2032.707,"body":"I can't do."},{"startTime":2032.707,"endTime":2033.467,"body":"Well, I can't."},{"startTime":2033.927,"endTime":2034.707,"body":"Oh man."},{"startTime":2035.127,"endTime":2036.867,"body":"Oh, wait, what's is Aha?"},{"startTime":2036.867,"endTime":2038.137,"body":"The no, ahas Not bad."},{"startTime":2038.167,"endTime":2038.767,"body":"What's the other one?"},{"startTime":2038.767,"endTime":2039.577,"body":"What's the other tool?"},{"startTime":2039.577,"endTime":2040.927,"body":"The, it's Trello, right?"},{"startTime":2040.932,"endTime":2041.287,"body":"Trello's."},{"startTime":2041.292,"endTime":2041.437,"body":"Trello."},{"startTime":2041.497,"endTime":2041.857,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":2041.862,"endTime":2042.117,"body":"Trello."},{"startTime":2042.427,"endTime":2042.717,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2042.777,"endTime":2043.897,"body":"Tr I'm not too film."},{"startTime":2043.927,"endTime":2044.492,"body":"Trello's great."},{"startTime":2044.492,"endTime":2048.902,"body":"If you wanna just like do this with your"},{"startTime":2044.492,"endTime":2048.902,"body":"church group or friends, but if you wanna"},{"startTime":2048.902,"endTime":2053.282,"body":"do this professionally Yeah, it's come a"},{"startTime":2048.902,"endTime":2053.282,"body":"long way, but it's still not there for me."},{"startTime":2054.092,"endTime":2055.622,"body":"I can't, I can't, I can't."},{"startTime":2055.682,"endTime":2059.622,"body":"We're like, we're using Jira now and I"},{"startTime":2055.682,"endTime":2059.622,"body":"like everyone knows I can't stay in Jira."},{"startTime":2060.132,"endTime":2061.182,"body":"Well, I'll tell you what."},{"startTime":2061.302,"endTime":2063.492,"body":"So I think stories on board and Aha."},{"startTime":2063.552,"endTime":2065.262,"body":"Both integrate with Jira."},{"startTime":2065.292,"endTime":2066.222,"body":"I happen to know that."},{"startTime":2066.252,"endTime":2066.942,"body":"Aha."},{"startTime":2067.212,"endTime":2071.142,"body":"If you go into AHA and create work"},{"startTime":2067.212,"endTime":2071.142,"body":"items, they can go directly into"},{"startTime":2071.262,"endTime":2074.682,"body":"Jira and create whatever level"},{"startTime":2071.262,"endTime":2074.682,"body":"of hierarchy work item you want."},{"startTime":2075.522,"endTime":2075.762,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2075.762,"endTime":2079.182,"body":"I like I when I used when I used VSCs."},{"startTime":2079.232,"endTime":2082.872,"body":"My last project they had integration"},{"startTime":2079.232,"endTime":2082.872,"body":"with AHA and it was it was good."},{"startTime":2083.442,"endTime":2086.862,"body":"Basically the division of labor"},{"startTime":2083.442,"endTime":2086.862,"body":"was the leadership used aha."},{"startTime":2087.132,"endTime":2091.622,"body":"And all the teams used vsts and it"},{"startTime":2087.132,"endTime":2091.622,"body":"was a, they were very happy with"},{"startTime":2091.622,"endTime":2094.542,"body":"that because they could, they could"},{"startTime":2091.622,"endTime":2094.542,"body":"see their high level items in high"},{"startTime":2094.542,"endTime":2097.832,"body":"level releases, cuz their releases"},{"startTime":2094.542,"endTime":2097.832,"body":"were like quarter to quarter."},{"startTime":2097.832,"endTime":2100.322,"body":"They didn't care about what was"},{"startTime":2097.832,"endTime":2100.322,"body":"being released every week or whatever"},{"startTime":2100.372,"endTime":2102.982,"body":"like they, they only cared about the"},{"startTime":2100.372,"endTime":2102.982,"body":"quarterly stuff cuz they were talking"},{"startTime":2102.982,"endTime":2106.432,"body":"directly to leadership once every,"},{"startTime":2102.982,"endTime":2106.432,"body":"I dunno, month or whatever it was."},{"startTime":2106.432,"endTime":2106.522,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2107.122,"endTime":2108.532,"body":"Um, but it, it seemed pretty efficient."},{"startTime":2108.532,"endTime":2109.972,"body":"I mean, you can change"},{"startTime":2108.532,"endTime":2109.972,"body":"priorities and stuff."},{"startTime":2110.122,"endTime":2110.992,"body":"Seemed pretty efficient."},{"startTime":2111.052,"endTime":2112.222,"body":"That's exactly what we did there."},{"startTime":2112.612,"endTime":2116.507,"body":"Um at the same, same client"},{"startTime":2112.612,"endTime":2116.507,"body":"actually hooked up VSDs to Aha."},{"startTime":2116.807,"endTime":2119.387,"body":"We went a little bit"},{"startTime":2116.807,"endTime":2119.387,"body":"beyond just the epics."},{"startTime":2119.417,"endTime":2119.507,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2119.747,"endTime":2123.227,"body":"We actually went down to the,"},{"startTime":2119.747,"endTime":2123.227,"body":"the user story level where"},{"startTime":2123.347,"endTime":2125.697,"body":"stories could be created in VSDs."},{"startTime":2125.727,"endTime":2125.787,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2125.787,"endTime":2127.467,"body":"But then they would fall back into Aha."},{"startTime":2127.467,"endTime":2128.187,"body":"So you could see them."},{"startTime":2128.487,"endTime":2128.767,"body":"Oh yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2128.937,"endTime":2131.158,"body":"Um, and the reason we did that is so that."},{"startTime":2132.147,"endTime":2134.787,"body":"These product owners were"},{"startTime":2132.147,"endTime":2134.787,"body":"solely working out of aha."},{"startTime":2134.877,"endTime":2135.057,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2135.057,"endTime":2137.487,"body":"So they can add in"},{"startTime":2135.057,"endTime":2137.487,"body":"clarifications or Right."},{"startTime":2137.487,"endTime":2137.697,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2137.997,"endTime":2139.167,"body":"Descriptions, et cetera."},{"startTime":2139.587,"endTime":2141.177,"body":"Um, it, it was bidirectional feed."},{"startTime":2141.177,"endTime":2145.497,"body":"It worked really well across two or"},{"startTime":2141.177,"endTime":2145.497,"body":"three, three different VSAs there."},{"startTime":2145.502,"endTime":2146.217,"body":"Oh, cool."},{"startTime":2146.222,"endTime":2148.287,"body":"So that, yeah, that was"},{"startTime":2146.222,"endTime":2148.287,"body":"across sevens teams."},{"startTime":2148.287,"endTime":2149.427,"body":"They worked, worked really well."},{"startTime":2149.697,"endTime":2152.067,"body":"The only thing is, I'll tell you,"},{"startTime":2149.697,"endTime":2152.067,"body":"there are some glitches once in a"},{"startTime":2152.067,"endTime":2154.257,"body":"while when they do updates to Aha."},{"startTime":2154.287,"endTime":2155.577,"body":"Cuz it's all on the cloud, right?"},{"startTime":2155.582,"endTime":2155.607,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2155.692,"endTime":2157.437,"body":"So you have no idea when"},{"startTime":2155.692,"endTime":2157.437,"body":"they're gonna do an update?"},{"startTime":2157.442,"endTime":2157.737,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2157.737,"endTime":2160.947,"body":"They show up at work one day and"},{"startTime":2157.737,"endTime":2160.947,"body":"suddenly all hell's broken loose."},{"startTime":2160.977,"endTime":2164.217,"body":"And that's because they did a,"},{"startTime":2160.977,"endTime":2164.217,"body":"they did an update overnight."},{"startTime":2164.427,"endTime":2166.712,"body":"You, what do you use for"},{"startTime":2164.427,"endTime":2166.712,"body":"what do you use for retros?"},{"startTime":2166.717,"endTime":2171.059,"body":"Because uses mural for retros and"},{"startTime":2166.717,"endTime":2171.059,"body":"she, she's fantastic with, with"},{"startTime":2171.069,"endTime":2175.479,"body":"facilitating it with the giant"},{"startTime":2171.069,"endTime":2175.479,"body":"canvas that mural allows you."},{"startTime":2175.479,"endTime":2180.249,"body":"And I'm like, I told her in one of the"},{"startTime":2175.479,"endTime":2180.249,"body":"sessions we had 1 0 1, I was like, man,"},{"startTime":2180.669,"endTime":2182.169,"body":"like you're way better at this than I am."},{"startTime":2182.169,"endTime":2183.279,"body":"Like, I'm terrible at this."},{"startTime":2183.779,"endTime":2184.979,"body":"Compared to, I've used Murro."},{"startTime":2184.979,"endTime":2188.799,"body":"I've also used Miro which is"},{"startTime":2184.979,"endTime":2188.799,"body":"a similar competing product."},{"startTime":2189.149,"endTime":2190.919,"body":"Mira, m i r o, Miro."},{"startTime":2190.919,"endTime":2191.769,"body":"Oh, Miro O."},{"startTime":2191.774,"endTime":2191.919,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2191.924,"endTime":2192.309,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2192.309,"endTime":2193.599,"body":"That I don't think I've"},{"startTime":2192.309,"endTime":2193.599,"body":"ever used it pretty good."},{"startTime":2193.779,"endTime":2197.379,"body":"The thing I really like about Miro"},{"startTime":2193.779,"endTime":2197.379,"body":"is if you're doing presentations and"},{"startTime":2197.379,"endTime":2200.799,"body":"you have two people speaking, or if"},{"startTime":2197.379,"endTime":2200.799,"body":"it's just one person, you can have"},{"startTime":2200.799,"endTime":2205.089,"body":"your, your presentation slide, and"},{"startTime":2200.799,"endTime":2205.089,"body":"you can have you in a bubble, like"},{"startTime":2205.089,"endTime":2206.679,"body":"in a circle with a speech bubble."},{"startTime":2206.769,"endTime":2207.069,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2207.099,"endTime":2211.669,"body":"So, and, and people can see you real"},{"startTime":2207.099,"endTime":2211.669,"body":"time speaking and still see your slide."},{"startTime":2211.669,"endTime":2211.67,"body":"Huh."},{"startTime":2211.675,"endTime":2215.329,"body":"So people find that distracting, but it's"},{"startTime":2211.675,"endTime":2215.329,"body":"just a novel little thing that they do."},{"startTime":2215.329,"endTime":2216.289,"body":"Oh, I've never heard."},{"startTime":2216.289,"endTime":2217.399,"body":"What, what does Miro do?"},{"startTime":2217.429,"endTime":2218.3,"body":"Like how is that different Look?"},{"startTime":2218.305,"endTime":2221.659,"body":"Because mural is just like a big"},{"startTime":2218.305,"endTime":2221.659,"body":"canvas and you add stickies all"},{"startTime":2221.659,"endTime":2224.179,"body":"over it, and you can pre organize"},{"startTime":2221.659,"endTime":2224.179,"body":"the canvas however you want."},{"startTime":2224.179,"endTime":2224.389,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2224.389,"endTime":2225.199,"body":"Mine was the same."},{"startTime":2225.199,"endTime":2226.459,"body":"It's just a computer product."},{"startTime":2227.084,"endTime":2229.054,"body":"Which minor nuances there."},{"startTime":2229.174,"endTime":2232.294,"body":"It's a, it's a, another"},{"startTime":2229.174,"endTime":2232.294,"body":"pay-to-play product."},{"startTime":2232.654,"endTime":2232.954,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2233.164,"endTime":2233.314,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2233.314,"endTime":2237.634,"body":"I think they have a, a Phoebe as well at"},{"startTime":2233.314,"endTime":2237.634,"body":"the trial man that you can sign up for."},{"startTime":2237.754,"endTime":2241.644,"body":"I, dude, I feel  there should be a,"},{"startTime":2237.754,"endTime":2241.644,"body":"there should be a package that, like"},{"startTime":2241.644,"endTime":2243.854,"body":"when you sign on to a consulting"},{"startTime":2241.644,"endTime":2243.854,"body":"firm or whatever, like there should"},{"startTime":2243.854,"endTime":2246.504,"body":"be a package, you should be like,"},{"startTime":2243.854,"endTime":2246.504,"body":"you have access to all these tools."},{"startTime":2246.504,"endTime":2247.584,"body":"Like boom, there it is."},{"startTime":2247.854,"endTime":2252.594,"body":"You know, our, cause the coaches"},{"startTime":2247.854,"endTime":2252.594,"body":"have used a bunch of different tools."},{"startTime":2252.594,"endTime":2257.454,"body":"Every coach uses like four or five"},{"startTime":2252.594,"endTime":2257.454,"body":"different tools, but sometimes you do the"},{"startTime":2257.459,"endTime":2260.664,"body":"same thing cuz some of 'em are good at one"},{"startTime":2257.459,"endTime":2260.664,"body":"thing, some of 'em are not good at one."},{"startTime":2261.114,"endTime":2264.984,"body":"But it's like you use different tools so"},{"startTime":2261.114,"endTime":2264.984,"body":"you know what is good for what, what is"},{"startTime":2264.984,"endTime":2269.454,"body":"good for another, what is good in the case"},{"startTime":2264.984,"endTime":2269.454,"body":"of like, well with these users, I use this"},{"startTime":2269.459,"endTime":2272.154,"body":"tool, sometimes I use this one, whatever."},{"startTime":2272.159,"endTime":2272.574,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2272.694,"endTime":2276.774,"body":"Like, dude, you should have a preloaded,"},{"startTime":2272.694,"endTime":2276.774,"body":"we should, we should do that man."},{"startTime":2276.779,"endTime":2280.875,"body":"We should like, we, we should sit down"},{"startTime":2276.779,"endTime":2280.875,"body":"and think about like, What tools would"},{"startTime":2280.875,"endTime":2285.375,"body":"we preload if we could, as far as like"},{"startTime":2280.875,"endTime":2285.375,"body":"a, if you were to join a consultancy,"},{"startTime":2285.375,"endTime":2288.885,"body":"like the, your dream consultancy, your"},{"startTime":2285.375,"endTime":2288.885,"body":"joining a consultancy, these are the tools"},{"startTime":2288.885,"endTime":2290.895,"body":"you get automatically when you start."},{"startTime":2291.675,"endTime":2291.885,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2291.885,"endTime":2296.17,"body":"I think there's a start to that, to that"},{"startTime":2291.885,"endTime":2296.17,"body":"end in Nino, there's a page that has"},{"startTime":2296.17,"endTime":2297.7,"body":"all the tools that people have used."},{"startTime":2297.76,"endTime":2298.18,"body":"Oh, really?"},{"startTime":2298.27,"endTime":2302.5,"body":"Um, but to your point about"},{"startTime":2298.27,"endTime":2302.5,"body":"walking into a client and saying,"},{"startTime":2302.5,"endTime":2303.55,"body":"these are the ones we need."},{"startTime":2303.82,"endTime":2306.49,"body":"There's some issues with that, because"},{"startTime":2303.82,"endTime":2306.49,"body":"I know some of the Big Four are"},{"startTime":2306.495,"endTime":2308.11,"body":"like, oh, we don't trust that one."},{"startTime":2308.115,"endTime":2308.532,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2308.537,"endTime":2311.72,"body":"You know, we don't allow Zoom"},{"startTime":2308.537,"endTime":2311.72,"body":"for, for, for an example."},{"startTime":2311.72,"endTime":2312.02,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2312.32,"endTime":2313.97,"body":"Um, but we want to use Google Meet."},{"startTime":2314.3,"endTime":2317.81,"body":"Oh, but you can't record in Google"},{"startTime":2314.3,"endTime":2317.81,"body":"Meet, so how you record meetings."},{"startTime":2317.81,"endTime":2318.11,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2318.11,"endTime":2319.1,"body":"So it's like, okay."},{"startTime":2319.19,"endTime":2320.03,"body":"O bs studio."},{"startTime":2320.12,"endTime":2320.48,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2320.485,"endTime":2320.6,"body":"Boom."},{"startTime":2320.7,"endTime":2324.88,"body":"Or, or you, you create workarounds"},{"startTime":2320.7,"endTime":2324.88,"body":"like Yeah, I record Google Meet Yeah."},{"startTime":2325.1,"endTime":2325.73,"body":"And snag it."},{"startTime":2325.88,"endTime":2327.14,"body":"I create SNAT videos."},{"startTime":2327.145,"endTime":2327.28,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2327.28,"endTime":2327.44,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2327.62,"endTime":2327.77,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2327.77,"endTime":2328.97,"body":"You end up with huge videos."},{"startTime":2328.97,"endTime":2329.4,"body":"But yeah."},{"startTime":2329.72,"endTime":2332.21,"body":"You know, space is not,"},{"startTime":2329.72,"endTime":2332.21,"body":"not a constraint anymore."},{"startTime":2332.42,"endTime":2332.54,"body":"Oh man."},{"startTime":2333.04,"endTime":2336.66,"body":"What like you, like I wanted to"},{"startTime":2333.04,"endTime":2336.66,"body":"talk more about user personas,"},{"startTime":2336.66,"endTime":2338.91,"body":"but that's probably just because"},{"startTime":2336.66,"endTime":2338.91,"body":"like, I like talking about user."},{"startTime":2339.03,"endTime":2341.64,"body":"I like talking about like, this"},{"startTime":2339.03,"endTime":2341.64,"body":"is, this is the, this is the thing"},{"startTime":2341.64,"endTime":2344.22,"body":"I found about, out, out, about"},{"startTime":2341.64,"endTime":2344.22,"body":"myself as working as a product now."},{"startTime":2344.22,"endTime":2346.62,"body":"Like, I talk, I like talking"},{"startTime":2344.22,"endTime":2346.62,"body":"about like nerdy BA stuff."},{"startTime":2347.31,"endTime":2351.72,"body":"I should probably like go find, like I,"},{"startTime":2347.31,"endTime":2351.72,"body":"I, I was an i b A member for like, many,"},{"startTime":2351.72,"endTime":2354.83,"body":"many years and I never really I never"},{"startTime":2351.72,"endTime":2354.83,"body":"really used my membership for anything."},{"startTime":2355.25,"endTime":2357.05,"body":"You know, I never took any of"},{"startTime":2355.25,"endTime":2357.05,"body":"the tests or anything that I"},{"startTime":2357.055,"endTime":2358.07,"body":"probably should have taken."},{"startTime":2358.82,"endTime":2362.935,"body":"Um, but it, it it would be cool to like"},{"startTime":2358.82,"endTime":2362.935,"body":"reach out to some of those people that,"},{"startTime":2363.115,"endTime":2366.535,"body":"that are i b members and be like, Hey"},{"startTime":2363.115,"endTime":2366.535,"body":"man, like let's go, let's talk about"},{"startTime":2366.535,"endTime":2370.405,"body":"nerdy BA stuff because user, like I"},{"startTime":2366.535,"endTime":2370.405,"body":"could talk about user personas for."},{"startTime":2371.02,"endTime":2373.33,"body":"Easily two, three hours easily."},{"startTime":2373.42,"endTime":2374.02,"body":"Wow, that's great."},{"startTime":2374.23,"endTime":2374.71,"body":"Easily."},{"startTime":2374.9,"endTime":2376.58,"body":"There's two kinds of user personas."},{"startTime":2376.85,"endTime":2382.27,"body":"There's assumption based user personas"},{"startTime":2376.85,"endTime":2382.27,"body":"and there's research based user personas."},{"startTime":2382.72,"endTime":2385.99,"body":"And I was like, it's, and I was"},{"startTime":2382.72,"endTime":2385.99,"body":"like, I'm I, I sent her a video."},{"startTime":2385.995,"endTime":2389.08,"body":"It was like an hour long video about"},{"startTime":2385.995,"endTime":2389.08,"body":"user, I can't remember what the video was."},{"startTime":2389.17,"endTime":2390.4,"body":"I'll have to go research it."},{"startTime":2390.49,"endTime":2393.04,"body":"Maybe I'll go, maybe if I'm not"},{"startTime":2390.49,"endTime":2393.04,"body":"lazy, I'll go research it and"},{"startTime":2393.04,"endTime":2394.09,"body":"I'll go add it to the notes."},{"startTime":2394.09,"endTime":2397.31,"body":"Cause in YouTube you can put notes on"},{"startTime":2394.09,"endTime":2397.31,"body":"the bottom of the but there was a really"},{"startTime":2397.31,"endTime":2399.61,"body":"great video about all about user personas."},{"startTime":2399.61,"endTime":2401.74,"body":"Like all the, the breakdown"},{"startTime":2399.61,"endTime":2401.74,"body":"from people that really don't"},{"startTime":2401.74,"endTime":2402.61,"body":"really know what they are."},{"startTime":2403.24,"endTime":2406.77,"body":"And he was talking about assumption"},{"startTime":2403.24,"endTime":2406.77,"body":"based versus research based and the like,"},{"startTime":2406.77,"endTime":2410.31,"body":"the basic concept is like, assumption"},{"startTime":2406.77,"endTime":2410.31,"body":"based is exactly the way it sounds."},{"startTime":2410.315,"endTime":2413.07,"body":"It's like, well, I know what my users do."},{"startTime":2413.745,"endTime":2417.375,"body":"You know, which you're gonna get out"},{"startTime":2413.745,"endTime":2417.375,"body":"of many, many people from the business."},{"startTime":2417.375,"endTime":2421.275,"body":"They're gonna be like, I know how the"},{"startTime":2417.375,"endTime":2421.275,"body":"users of our software use our software."},{"startTime":2421.275,"endTime":2422.925,"body":"I know everything about 'em."},{"startTime":2422.985,"endTime":2426.075,"body":"And then there's research based,"},{"startTime":2422.985,"endTime":2426.075,"body":"which actually is like, I'm"},{"startTime":2426.075,"endTime":2429.645,"body":"gonna sit with the user and I'm"},{"startTime":2426.075,"endTime":2429.645,"body":"gonna watch how they navigate."},{"startTime":2429.765,"endTime":2431.986,"body":"Or I'm gonna go where users"},{"startTime":2429.765,"endTime":2431.986,"body":"are, where a lot of users are,"},{"startTime":2432.165,"endTime":2433.455,"body":"and I'm watch what they do."},{"startTime":2433.575,"endTime":2438.295,"body":"Or I'm gonna um, maybe I create, like we"},{"startTime":2433.575,"endTime":2438.295,"body":"did this with a mobile app we did on a"},{"startTime":2438.295,"endTime":2442.165,"body":"project I was on, we integrated a heat map"},{"startTime":2438.295,"endTime":2442.165,"body":"in the mobile app so you can actually see"},{"startTime":2442.165,"endTime":2446.235,"body":"what people are clicking on and you can"},{"startTime":2442.165,"endTime":2446.235,"body":"gather mass statistics about your users."},{"startTime":2446.98,"endTime":2448.69,"body":"Usage of the application."},{"startTime":2449.14,"endTime":2451.96,"body":"So you start seeing heat maps about"},{"startTime":2449.14,"endTime":2451.96,"body":"like most people go here first"},{"startTime":2451.96,"endTime":2453.4,"body":"and they go here next or whatever."},{"startTime":2453.7,"endTime":2459.28,"body":"Um, which is like a su if you're a"},{"startTime":2453.7,"endTime":2459.28,"body":"UI ux person, super valuable tool."},{"startTime":2459.28,"endTime":2461.02,"body":"Absolutely super valuable tool."},{"startTime":2461.17,"endTime":2464.111,"body":"Especially to, for a UX person, because"},{"startTime":2461.17,"endTime":2464.111,"body":"you can see the behavior, right?"},{"startTime":2464.116,"endTime":2464.39,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2464.41,"endTime":2464.79,"body":"The users."},{"startTime":2465.02,"endTime":2465.31,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2465.9,"endTime":2471.98,"body":"Also, if you're, if you are implementing"},{"startTime":2465.9,"endTime":2471.98,"body":"a new piece of of the UX or if you've"},{"startTime":2471.98,"endTime":2475.73,"body":"redesigned the ux, which which is where"},{"startTime":2471.98,"endTime":2475.73,"body":"we implement it, we redesigned the"},{"startTime":2475.735,"endTime":2479.36,"body":"whole UX and we took the opportunity"},{"startTime":2475.735,"endTime":2479.36,"body":"to redesign, to implement this."},{"startTime":2479.58,"endTime":2481.65,"body":"It was like a third party software."},{"startTime":2481.65,"endTime":2482.96,"body":"We bought it and integrated."},{"startTime":2482.96,"endTime":2487.71,"body":"It was, it was fairly expensive, but quite"},{"startTime":2482.96,"endTime":2487.71,"body":"honestly, like it was worth what we got"},{"startTime":2487.71,"endTime":2493.41,"body":"out of it cuz we basically had no idea"},{"startTime":2487.71,"endTime":2493.41,"body":"honestly, like we had all of our personas"},{"startTime":2493.47,"endTime":2496.23,"body":"to that point were assumed personas."},{"startTime":2496.68,"endTime":2500.94,"body":"So actually being able to see"},{"startTime":2496.68,"endTime":2500.94,"body":"the real, like the real data of"},{"startTime":2501.18,"endTime":2502.02,"body":"what people were clicking in."},{"startTime":2502.68,"endTime":2506.43,"body":"Where people were confused and what"},{"startTime":2502.68,"endTime":2506.43,"body":"screens people took a long time on."},{"startTime":2506.85,"endTime":2507.39,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2507.69,"endTime":2509.04,"body":"Um, it, it helped."},{"startTime":2509.54,"endTime":2512.42,"body":"In that instance, it didn't help"},{"startTime":2509.54,"endTime":2512.42,"body":"so much because like, development"},{"startTime":2512.42,"endTime":2513.56,"body":"gathered all the statistics."},{"startTime":2513.56,"endTime":2516.02,"body":"So it's like the developers only"},{"startTime":2513.56,"endTime":2516.02,"body":"passed the statistics that they"},{"startTime":2516.025,"endTime":2517.291,"body":"liked to the business, right?"},{"startTime":2517.296,"endTime":2519.42,"body":"It, it would've been better for"},{"startTime":2517.296,"endTime":2519.42,"body":"the business to have those stats"},{"startTime":2519.42,"endTime":2524.01,"body":"and to drive UX design and product"},{"startTime":2519.42,"endTime":2524.01,"body":"design based on those stats."},{"startTime":2524.22,"endTime":2525.69,"body":"But, uh hey, whatever man."},{"startTime":2526.19,"endTime":2527.48,"body":"But another opportunity to improve."},{"startTime":2527.81,"endTime":2528.35,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2528.41,"endTime":2528.86,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2529.61,"endTime":2534.77,"body":"And like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm trying"},{"startTime":2529.61,"endTime":2534.77,"body":"to think of the, the, the, I'm"},{"startTime":2534.77,"endTime":2538.84,"body":"trying to think of the thing I really"},{"startTime":2534.77,"endTime":2538.84,"body":"wanted to ask you, which was oh, I,"},{"startTime":2538.84,"endTime":2540.13,"body":"dude, I know what I want to ask you."},{"startTime":2540.13,"endTime":2540.91,"body":"I know what I wanna ask you."},{"startTime":2540.915,"endTime":2546.43,"body":"Like, there's this I saw you comment on"},{"startTime":2540.915,"endTime":2546.43,"body":"a, on a thread in LinkedIn and it was"},{"startTime":2546.48,"endTime":2550.02,"body":"I'm not gonna mention who, who posted"},{"startTime":2546.48,"endTime":2550.02,"body":"it or what the thread exactly was."},{"startTime":2550.02,"endTime":2552.87,"body":"Cause I can't, number one, I'm"},{"startTime":2550.02,"endTime":2552.87,"body":"not trying to blast anybody."},{"startTime":2552.87,"endTime":2555.27,"body":"But number two, I can't, I really"},{"startTime":2552.87,"endTime":2555.27,"body":"can't remember exactly what it was,"},{"startTime":2555.69,"endTime":2559.505,"body":"but it basically was, it basically"},{"startTime":2555.69,"endTime":2559.505,"body":"was, I've noticed this trend"},{"startTime":2559.505,"endTime":2561.335,"body":"in the agile space on LinkedIn."},{"startTime":2561.425,"endTime":2565.895,"body":"I almo, I almost never comment"},{"startTime":2561.425,"endTime":2565.895,"body":"on anything on LinkedIn probably,"},{"startTime":2565.9,"endTime":2567.365,"body":"cuz I'm terrible on social media."},{"startTime":2567.365,"endTime":2568.415,"body":"Like, I just don't care."},{"startTime":2568.475,"endTime":2573.555,"body":"Like, I don't, I don't care to, to,"},{"startTime":2568.475,"endTime":2573.555,"body":"to talk to, to people like in re ever."},{"startTime":2574.005,"endTime":2577.784,"body":"But but uh when I do talk to people"},{"startTime":2574.005,"endTime":2577.784,"body":"on the occasion, I do talk to people."},{"startTime":2578.054,"endTime":2581.924,"body":"Um like I, I, I noticed you talk,"},{"startTime":2578.054,"endTime":2581.924,"body":"I noticed you commented, I almost"},{"startTime":2581.924,"endTime":2584.954,"body":"commented on it and I wrote it was"},{"startTime":2581.924,"endTime":2584.954,"body":"one of those comments where you write"},{"startTime":2584.954,"endTime":2586.634,"body":"something and then you delete it."},{"startTime":2587.304,"endTime":2588.684,"body":"It was one of those I"},{"startTime":2587.304,"endTime":2588.684,"body":"have plenty of those."},{"startTime":2588.794,"endTime":2589.484,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2589.574,"endTime":2594.309,"body":"So, so somebody, somebody posted"},{"startTime":2589.574,"endTime":2594.309,"body":"like there's this trend and"},{"startTime":2594.309,"endTime":2598.629,"body":"I've, I've noticed it a lot more"},{"startTime":2594.309,"endTime":2598.629,"body":"with people in the agile space."},{"startTime":2598.689,"endTime":2601.269,"body":"Mostly coaches, but like, I"},{"startTime":2598.689,"endTime":2601.269,"body":"don't mean you never know when"},{"startTime":2601.269,"endTime":2602.709,"body":"somebody posts Agile coach."},{"startTime":2602.709,"endTime":2606.059,"body":"I don't, you don't know what their real"},{"startTime":2602.709,"endTime":2606.059,"body":"job is, but mostly coaches I notice"},{"startTime":2606.209,"endTime":2613.439,"body":"they'll, they'll, they'll post on LinkedIn"},{"startTime":2606.209,"endTime":2613.439,"body":"with a, with a, like a statement or a"},{"startTime":2613.439,"endTime":2618.929,"body":"topic or a question, but the question"},{"startTime":2613.439,"endTime":2618.929,"body":"itself is super incendiary and then"},{"startTime":2618.959,"endTime":2622.259,"body":"they'll get like 147,000 comments, right?"},{"startTime":2623.129,"endTime":2625.439,"body":"And I'm like, is this"},{"startTime":2623.129,"endTime":2625.439,"body":"really helping anyone?"},{"startTime":2625.444,"endTime":2629.879,"body":"Like, are like, or are you just like, I"},{"startTime":2625.444,"endTime":2629.879,"body":"didn't realize LinkedIn, like I didn't"},{"startTime":2629.884,"endTime":2634.759,"body":"realize that the algorithm on LinkedIn"},{"startTime":2629.884,"endTime":2634.759,"body":"The clickbait mattered in on LinkedIn."},{"startTime":2634.759,"endTime":2636.169,"body":"I thought LinkedIn worked differently."},{"startTime":2636.169,"endTime":2637.009,"body":"I guess it doesn't."},{"startTime":2637.249,"endTime":2638.089,"body":"I have no idea."},{"startTime":2638.094,"endTime":2638.359,"body":"It doesn't."},{"startTime":2638.509,"endTime":2638.659,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2638.689,"endTime":2642.019,"body":"But, but like, the point is like, I"},{"startTime":2638.689,"endTime":2642.019,"body":"guess I bring that point up to be like"},{"startTime":2642.519,"endTime":2644.799,"body":"like why, why do people post that stuff?"},{"startTime":2644.804,"endTime":2647.754,"body":"I, I, do you feel the same way"},{"startTime":2644.804,"endTime":2647.754,"body":"that I feel right now, like when"},{"startTime":2647.754,"endTime":2649.304,"body":"people post that kind of stuff?"},{"startTime":2649.334,"endTime":2650.774,"body":"Cause I saw you comment on one of 'em."},{"startTime":2650.774,"endTime":2654.554,"body":"I was like, oh dude, I got, I usually,"},{"startTime":2650.774,"endTime":2654.554,"body":"I usually am very restrained, so"},{"startTime":2654.554,"endTime":2657.164,"body":"when I did comment, it must have"},{"startTime":2654.554,"endTime":2657.164,"body":"really touched the nerve with me."},{"startTime":2657.404,"endTime":2659.654,"body":"Oh, I, I wish I would've taken"},{"startTime":2657.404,"endTime":2659.654,"body":"a screenshot of what it was."},{"startTime":2659.714,"endTime":2660.404,"body":"Oh man."},{"startTime":2660.904,"endTime":2661.114,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2661.114,"endTime":2665.164,"body":"And I, I try not to let you know"},{"startTime":2661.114,"endTime":2665.164,"body":"any like, political biases show"},{"startTime":2665.169,"endTime":2665.945,"body":"through or anything like that."},{"startTime":2665.95,"endTime":2666.184,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2666.724,"endTime":2669.214,"body":"Um, it wasn't, it wasn't"},{"startTime":2666.724,"endTime":2669.214,"body":"a political thing."},{"startTime":2669.214,"endTime":2671.464,"body":"It was something along the lines of,"},{"startTime":2669.214,"endTime":2671.464,"body":"I don't know if, I don't remember if"},{"startTime":2671.464,"endTime":2674.674,"body":"it was a, I think it was something, I"},{"startTime":2671.464,"endTime":2674.674,"body":"think it was something mentioning Safe."},{"startTime":2674.944,"endTime":2676.324,"body":"I think that's actually what it was."},{"startTime":2676.954,"endTime":2681.614,"body":"I think it was something mentioning Safe"},{"startTime":2676.954,"endTime":2681.614,"body":"and there was like thousands of comments."},{"startTime":2681.644,"endTime":2683.414,"body":"I remember there were"},{"startTime":2681.644,"endTime":2683.414,"body":"thousands of comments."},{"startTime":2683.914,"endTime":2684.724,"body":"I'm like, why?"},{"startTime":2685.084,"endTime":2689.584,"body":"Like I know that, that don't, don't we"},{"startTime":2685.084,"endTime":2689.584,"body":"have better things to do with our life."},{"startTime":2689.584,"endTime":2691.414,"body":"Like that's, that's why I"},{"startTime":2689.584,"endTime":2691.414,"body":"remember reading through it."},{"startTime":2691.414,"endTime":2695.164,"body":"But like the, the point of reading"},{"startTime":2691.414,"endTime":2695.164,"body":"the comment was like, obviously there"},{"startTime":2695.164,"endTime":2698.874,"body":"were, there was nobody, and this is"},{"startTime":2695.164,"endTime":2698.874,"body":"probably a political thing, right?"},{"startTime":2698.879,"endTime":2700.585,"body":"This is this, this is"},{"startTime":2698.879,"endTime":2700.585,"body":"probably what it actually is."},{"startTime":2700.734,"endTime":2704.714,"body":"Like, there was nobody being like,"},{"startTime":2700.734,"endTime":2704.714,"body":"I understand why organizations I,"},{"startTime":2704.719,"endTime":2707.074,"body":"I remember having a conversation"},{"startTime":2704.719,"endTime":2707.074,"body":"with Mike Mill about this."},{"startTime":2707.074,"endTime":2711.064,"body":"Like, I completely understand why"},{"startTime":2707.074,"endTime":2711.064,"body":"large organizations adopt safe."},{"startTime":2711.784,"endTime":2712.414,"body":"I get it."},{"startTime":2712.534,"endTime":2713.644,"body":"I totally get it."},{"startTime":2714.184,"endTime":2716.389,"body":"You know, and, and the"},{"startTime":2714.184,"endTime":2716.389,"body":"fact that that is lost."},{"startTime":2716.889,"endTime":2721.349,"body":"The, the fact that a,"},{"startTime":2716.889,"endTime":2721.349,"body":"your typical agile coach,"},{"startTime":2721.849,"endTime":2724.959,"body":"this is a, this is a, I can't"},{"startTime":2721.849,"endTime":2724.959,"body":"really generalize this one cuz"},{"startTime":2724.964,"endTime":2726.099,"body":"this is a tough one to generalize."},{"startTime":2726.159,"endTime":2728.799,"body":"I, but I, I would expect"},{"startTime":2726.159,"endTime":2728.799,"body":"your, your typical agile coach"},{"startTime":2728.799,"endTime":2729.799,"body":"would have a similar opinion."},{"startTime":2730.299,"endTime":2731.289,"body":"And here's the opinion."},{"startTime":2731.399,"endTime":2731.689,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2731.819,"endTime":2737.169,"body":"Which is large organizations"},{"startTime":2731.819,"endTime":2737.169,"body":"are would find a difficult time"},{"startTime":2737.199,"endTime":2741.729,"body":"adopting an Agile methodology as an"},{"startTime":2737.199,"endTime":2741.729,"body":"organization, as a large organization."},{"startTime":2741.729,"endTime":2743.679,"body":"I mean, you're talking hundreds"},{"startTime":2741.729,"endTime":2743.679,"body":"of thousands of, I'm talking"},{"startTime":2743.679,"endTime":2746.775,"body":"true large organizations chase"},{"startTime":2743.679,"endTime":2746.775,"body":"Bank or something like that."},{"startTime":2746.78,"endTime":2747.404,"body":"Like, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2747.404,"endTime":2750.394,"body":"Like that that would be, that would be"},{"startTime":2747.404,"endTime":2750.394,"body":"an example of I think Chase actually"},{"startTime":2750.394,"endTime":2751.864,"body":"is supposed to be Agile, didn't they?"},{"startTime":2751.864,"endTime":2755.074,"body":"Or isn't Chase the one that came out with"},{"startTime":2751.864,"endTime":2755.074,"body":"that article a couple years ago where"},{"startTime":2755.074,"endTime":2759.544,"body":"like, we don't have Scrum masters anymore,"},{"startTime":2755.074,"endTime":2759.544,"body":"we have Agile delivery leads or whatever."},{"startTime":2759.544,"endTime":2762.004,"body":"I, I don't, I don't, I I"},{"startTime":2759.544,"endTime":2762.004,"body":"could be misquoting it."},{"startTime":2762.004,"endTime":2765.394,"body":"I, I probably should look it up"},{"startTime":2762.004,"endTime":2765.394,"body":"right now, but if you are that"},{"startTime":2765.394,"endTime":2768.604,"body":"large of an organization, you"},{"startTime":2765.394,"endTime":2768.604,"body":"can't really break your software."},{"startTime":2769.104,"endTime":2772.944,"body":"You can't really break your software"},{"startTime":2769.104,"endTime":2772.944,"body":"delivery into, like one team works on."},{"startTime":2773.559,"endTime":2777.609,"body":"This product that delivers my website,"},{"startTime":2773.559,"endTime":2777.609,"body":"however, cuz their website is probably"},{"startTime":2777.609,"endTime":2782.079,"body":"worked on by hundreds of people"},{"startTime":2777.609,"endTime":2782.079,"body":"across dozens of teams or whatever."},{"startTime":2782.559,"endTime":2782.829,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2782.829,"endTime":2786.369,"body":"Not only that, it's probably"},{"startTime":2782.829,"endTime":2786.369,"body":"multiple third party vendors that"},{"startTime":2786.369,"endTime":2787.509,"body":"are working on it too, right?"},{"startTime":2787.514,"endTime":2788.019,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2788.019,"endTime":2793.079,"body":"With their own little pockets of"},{"startTime":2788.019,"endTime":2793.079,"body":"knowledge in various scaling frameworks."},{"startTime":2793.139,"endTime":2793.349,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2793.439,"endTime":2797.639,"body":"Um, in, in large organizations like"},{"startTime":2793.439,"endTime":2797.639,"body":"that, the best you could hope for"},{"startTime":2797.699,"endTime":2800.429,"body":"is adoption at a small micro level."},{"startTime":2800.699,"endTime":2801.089,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2801.269,"endTime":2806.729,"body":"So maybe, and even there, if they're doing"},{"startTime":2801.269,"endTime":2806.729,"body":"that on an existing project, it's kind of"},{"startTime":2806.789,"endTime":2811.289,"body":"risky if they adopt a Greenfield project"},{"startTime":2806.789,"endTime":2811.289,"body":"and say, we're gonna do this project."},{"startTime":2811.289,"endTime":2811.29,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2811.339,"endTime":2815.189,"body":"We'll scale that up, you're using"},{"startTime":2811.339,"endTime":2815.189,"body":"xy, whatever it is, safe scrum and"},{"startTime":2815.189,"endTime":2816.689,"body":"scale, whatever methodology they do."},{"startTime":2816.689,"endTime":2819.869,"body":"So the framework they use, I should"},{"startTime":2816.689,"endTime":2819.869,"body":"say their chances of succeeding"},{"startTime":2819.869,"endTime":2823.319,"body":"are higher, but remember, it's"},{"startTime":2819.869,"endTime":2823.319,"body":"just a drop in the ocean, right?"},{"startTime":2823.319,"endTime":2823.379,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2823.379,"endTime":2825.209,"body":"It's just one little microcosm."},{"startTime":2825.209,"endTime":2825.389,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2825.689,"endTime":2827.759,"body":"Where they've embraced"},{"startTime":2825.689,"endTime":2827.759,"body":"this, this framework."},{"startTime":2827.939,"endTime":2828.089,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2828.149,"endTime":2832.559,"body":"Um, to go across the"},{"startTime":2828.149,"endTime":2832.559,"body":"organization, it's a huge ask."},{"startTime":2832.559,"endTime":2837.629,"body":"You're talking about years and you"},{"startTime":2832.559,"endTime":2837.629,"body":"know, it, it global organization, like"},{"startTime":2837.749,"endTime":2838.799,"body":"the ones we're talking about here."},{"startTime":2838.799,"endTime":2838.919,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2839.159,"endTime":2840.269,"body":"I don't know if you ever get there."},{"startTime":2840.769,"endTime":2841.069,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2841.069,"endTime":2844.939,"body":"Because what happens before you"},{"startTime":2841.069,"endTime":2844.939,"body":"get there is the organization gets"},{"startTime":2844.939,"endTime":2849.079,"body":"either acquired or they split parts"},{"startTime":2844.939,"endTime":2849.079,"body":"of their business off and divest"},{"startTime":2849.079,"endTime":2850.849,"body":"those, or they acquire new businesses."},{"startTime":2850.849,"endTime":2852.049,"body":"So is a changing landscape."},{"startTime":2852.549,"endTime":2852.839,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2853.339,"endTime":2854.599,"body":"The like what, like"},{"startTime":2855.099,"endTime":2859.054,"body":"I ask people this nowadays, it's like"},{"startTime":2855.099,"endTime":2859.054,"body":"given where we are right now in in a"},{"startTime":2859.054,"endTime":2861.244,"body":"pandemic or almost post pandemic, I guess."},{"startTime":2861.244,"endTime":2861.454,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2861.874,"endTime":2866.824,"body":"If you had to start with a new framework"},{"startTime":2861.874,"endTime":2866.824,"body":"for scaling, what would you choose?"},{"startTime":2867.034,"endTime":2867.334,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2867.334,"endTime":2870.304,"body":"Remember, tons of people got laid"},{"startTime":2867.334,"endTime":2870.304,"body":"off to the pandemic, et cetera."},{"startTime":2870.309,"endTime":2870.354,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2870.574,"endTime":2870.664,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2870.664,"endTime":2875.584,"body":"Do you have all these people on staff"},{"startTime":2870.664,"endTime":2875.584,"body":"where you can pigeonhole those into"},{"startTime":2875.644,"endTime":2877.984,"body":"specific roles that safe prescribes?"},{"startTime":2877.984,"endTime":2877.985,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2877.994,"endTime":2882.034,"body":"Or would you say, let's focus on"},{"startTime":2877.994,"endTime":2882.034,"body":"doing the basics right now that we're"},{"startTime":2882.034,"endTime":2883.504,"body":"doing that, let's just do more of it."},{"startTime":2883.834,"endTime":2888.734,"body":"Dude, I like honestly though, like I,"},{"startTime":2883.834,"endTime":2888.734,"body":"I've never seen I've never, I've never,"},{"startTime":2889.234,"endTime":2892.474,"body":"like somebody on the internet is gonna"},{"startTime":2889.234,"endTime":2892.474,"body":"write angry tweets at me for saying this."},{"startTime":2892.534,"endTime":2895.624,"body":"I'm, dude, I've never seen an organization"},{"startTime":2892.534,"endTime":2895.624,"body":"that has a release train engineer."},{"startTime":2895.684,"endTime":2897.464,"body":"Like their job role is"},{"startTime":2895.684,"endTime":2897.464,"body":"release train engineer."},{"startTime":2897.704,"endTime":2898.474,"body":"I have."},{"startTime":2898.594,"endTime":2899.074,"body":"Oh really?"},{"startTime":2899.074,"endTime":2899.464,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2899.554,"endTime":2904.864,"body":"Oh man, I have, and matter of fact, funny"},{"startTime":2899.554,"endTime":2904.864,"body":"should say that cuz uh one of the projects"},{"startTime":2904.864,"endTime":2907.534,"body":"I'm on now, right now is using Safe."},{"startTime":2907.564,"endTime":2907.654,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2907.954,"endTime":2908.284,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2908.284,"endTime":2911.764,"body":"Right now we only have three teams,"},{"startTime":2908.284,"endTime":2911.764,"body":"but we're on our way to 11 teams."},{"startTime":2912.379,"endTime":2917.209,"body":"Um, because they're using safe and"},{"startTime":2912.379,"endTime":2917.209,"body":"because they do not have somebody in"},{"startTime":2917.209,"endTime":2919.489,"body":"that role, we are actually suffering."},{"startTime":2919.669,"endTime":2919.789,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2919.789,"endTime":2921.889,"body":"But what they do have are other roles."},{"startTime":2921.889,"endTime":2924.799,"body":"Like they have a master's, scrum"},{"startTime":2921.889,"endTime":2924.799,"body":"master, whatever one of those is."},{"startTime":2924.799,"endTime":2926.689,"body":"Wait, is that, that's"},{"startTime":2924.799,"endTime":2926.689,"body":"not a safe thing, is it?"},{"startTime":2926.689,"endTime":2926.809,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2926.809,"endTime":2928.019,"body":"No, it's not, it's not a safe thing."},{"startTime":2928.249,"endTime":2929.699,"body":"This is like a hybrid thing, right?"},{"startTime":2930.199,"endTime":2936.149,"body":"Um, it they're, they're doing this their"},{"startTime":2930.199,"endTime":2936.149,"body":"version of safe Oh, a hybrid thing."},{"startTime":2936.154,"endTime":2936.359,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2936.779,"endTime":2940.019,"body":"So they that but that, that this"},{"startTime":2936.779,"endTime":2940.019,"body":"thing must here on, oh my God."},{"startTime":2940.019,"endTime":2943.654,"body":"I gotta I got, I gotta go like a split"},{"startTime":2940.019,"endTime":2943.654,"body":"screen cuz I'm, I'm screwing around."},{"startTime":2944.154,"endTime":2944.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2944.944,"endTime":2945.904,"body":"Where's the, where's the camera?"},{"startTime":2945.909,"endTime":2949.994,"body":"Oh, no, there, they're, yeah, but"},{"startTime":2945.909,"endTime":2949.994,"body":"that, the that's the, that's, I"},{"startTime":2949.994,"endTime":2952.184,"body":"feel that's the allure of safe."},{"startTime":2952.214,"endTime":2953.684,"body":"There's not a version of safe."},{"startTime":2953.689,"endTime":2956.234,"body":"It's, you're doing it right"},{"startTime":2953.689,"endTime":2956.234,"body":"or you're not doing it."},{"startTime":2956.774,"endTime":2957.914,"body":"That's the allure of safe."},{"startTime":2958.124,"endTime":2960.564,"body":"Either you have a, you have"},{"startTime":2958.124,"endTime":2960.564,"body":"a person whose job title."},{"startTime":2961.184,"endTime":2962.204,"body":"Is release training engineer."},{"startTime":2962.384,"endTime":2963.854,"body":"Eh, it's a rule, not a job title."},{"startTime":2963.914,"endTime":2964.064,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2964.064,"endTime":2964.874,"body":"It's a job title."},{"startTime":2964.934,"endTime":2967.214,"body":"It's his full-time job"},{"startTime":2964.934,"endTime":2967.214,"body":"release train engineer."},{"startTime":2967.214,"endTime":2968.984,"body":"And that's what a lot of"},{"startTime":2967.214,"endTime":2968.984,"body":"people don't understand, right?"},{"startTime":2969.254,"endTime":2972.404,"body":"The release train engineer is not"},{"startTime":2969.254,"endTime":2972.404,"body":"involved just at your product increment."},{"startTime":2972.434,"endTime":2974.264,"body":"They're involved the whole thing."},{"startTime":2974.264,"endTime":2974.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2974.449,"endTime":2975.014,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2975.014,"endTime":2975.704,"body":"They have to be."},{"startTime":2975.764,"endTime":2976.094,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2976.244,"endTime":2978.044,"body":"And we don't have that,"},{"startTime":2976.244,"endTime":2978.044,"body":"so we are missing that."},{"startTime":2978.044,"endTime":2978.045,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2978.344,"endTime":2982.094,"body":"So now we have these teams that are"},{"startTime":2978.344,"endTime":2982.094,"body":"working together, working in silos, rather"},{"startTime":2982.454,"endTime":2983.684,"body":"pretending they're working together."},{"startTime":2983.684,"endTime":2983.774,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2984.014,"endTime":2987.314,"body":"And there's nobody, I, I liken"},{"startTime":2984.014,"endTime":2987.314,"body":"this to like a, a conductor"},{"startTime":2987.319,"endTime":2988.244,"body":"of an orchestra, right?"},{"startTime":2988.244,"endTime":2990.644,"body":"So you have the brass section"},{"startTime":2988.244,"endTime":2990.644,"body":"that's really doing really well."},{"startTime":2990.649,"endTime":2990.764,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2991.004,"endTime":2993.374,"body":"And you have the string section over"},{"startTime":2991.004,"endTime":2993.374,"body":"there and the percussions over there."},{"startTime":2993.764,"endTime":2994.964,"body":"Everybody's doing great."},{"startTime":2994.994,"endTime":2995.234,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2995.414,"endTime":2996.134,"body":"By themselves."},{"startTime":2996.224,"endTime":2996.434,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2996.439,"endTime":2996.564,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2997.034,"endTime":2998.444,"body":"When they all start playing"},{"startTime":2997.034,"endTime":2998.444,"body":"together, what happens?"},{"startTime":2998.544,"endTime":3000.154,"body":"And you don't have that conductor."},{"startTime":3000.304,"endTime":3000.484,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3000.514,"endTime":3001.864,"body":"That's what an RTE really is."},{"startTime":3001.864,"endTime":3001.924,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3001.964,"endTime":3002.084,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3002.089,"endTime":3005.704,"body":"And I've made the case for,"},{"startTime":3002.089,"endTime":3005.704,"body":"for one, in fact, we put"},{"startTime":3005.704,"endTime":3007.414,"body":"together a business case, right."},{"startTime":3007.444,"endTime":3009.274,"body":"And it got turned down on the basis that."},{"startTime":3009.649,"endTime":3012.229,"body":"Well, we have other people that"},{"startTime":3009.649,"endTime":3012.229,"body":"we should be able to manage that."},{"startTime":3012.229,"endTime":3015.589,"body":"And we have this guy"},{"startTime":3012.229,"endTime":3015.589,"body":"who is the program lead."},{"startTime":3015.594,"endTime":3015.719,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3015.989,"endTime":3016.559,"body":"That is mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3016.639,"endTime":3019.999,"body":"Then we have this other person"},{"startTime":3016.639,"endTime":3019.999,"body":"now who's a master's scrum master."},{"startTime":3020.059,"endTime":3020.149,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3020.539,"endTime":3021.619,"body":"And why can't they do it?"},{"startTime":3021.619,"endTime":3023.569,"body":"Well, we ask these guys"},{"startTime":3021.619,"endTime":3023.569,"body":"and they go, what's an rt?"},{"startTime":3023.629,"endTime":3024.709,"body":"I've never done Mean one."},{"startTime":3024.714,"endTime":3026.779,"body":"I don't know what that Well, I mean,"},{"startTime":3024.714,"endTime":3026.779,"body":"you, you would think, you would think"},{"startTime":3026.779,"endTime":3030.879,"body":"that they, they can do it, it's just"},{"startTime":3026.779,"endTime":3030.879,"body":"you need to move them into like a"},{"startTime":3031.009,"endTime":3033.639,"body":"large organ, like weird, large organ."},{"startTime":3033.699,"endTime":3035.379,"body":"Sorry, this is like all"},{"startTime":3033.699,"endTime":3035.379,"body":"stuff over the table."},{"startTime":3035.384,"endTime":3036.219,"body":"I'm like, what is this?"},{"startTime":3036.379,"endTime":3040.729,"body":"That like, large organizations usually"},{"startTime":3036.379,"endTime":3040.729,"body":"have like in my experience anyway, like"},{"startTime":3040.729,"endTime":3043.259,"body":"it could, it could be different for"},{"startTime":3040.729,"endTime":3043.259,"body":"everyone, but my experience, larger"},{"startTime":3043.259,"endTime":3047.389,"body":"organizations will usually take people"},{"startTime":3043.259,"endTime":3047.389,"body":"from other departments that are in"},{"startTime":3047.389,"endTime":3051.789,"body":"large organizations usually have some"},{"startTime":3047.389,"endTime":3051.789,"body":"kind of hierarchy or leadership level."},{"startTime":3051.849,"endTime":3052.869,"body":"I'll use military levels."},{"startTime":3052.869,"endTime":3055.989,"body":"Like you, you're like a major and then"},{"startTime":3052.869,"endTime":3055.989,"body":"you're like a lieutenant colonel and"},{"startTime":3055.989,"endTime":3056.979,"body":"then you're a colonel or whatever."},{"startTime":3056.979,"endTime":3058.389,"body":"So it's like someone is like a."},{"startTime":3058.959,"endTime":3062.819,"body":"Someone is like a someone is like a"},{"startTime":3058.959,"endTime":3062.819,"body":"captain in the organization and they'll"},{"startTime":3062.819,"endTime":3066.359,"body":"take 'em and they'll move 'em over over"},{"startTime":3062.819,"endTime":3066.359,"body":"a program for a while and they'll do a"},{"startTime":3066.359,"endTime":3069.299,"body":"good job and then they'll get promoted"},{"startTime":3066.359,"endTime":3069.299,"body":"to whatever, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3069.304,"endTime":3070.559,"body":"To major or whatever."},{"startTime":3070.559,"endTime":3072.299,"body":"And then they do a good"},{"startTime":3070.559,"endTime":3072.299,"body":"job in that program."},{"startTime":3072.304,"endTime":3074.729,"body":"They get promoted a major because they"},{"startTime":3072.304,"endTime":3074.729,"body":"get, did a good job in that program."},{"startTime":3074.729,"endTime":3079.019,"body":"But like, that's how larger, that's like"},{"startTime":3074.729,"endTime":3079.019,"body":"the little game that they play in larger"},{"startTime":3079.019,"endTime":3080.309,"body":"organizations, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3080.309,"endTime":3084.539,"body":"Like you have a, you have a rank"},{"startTime":3080.309,"endTime":3084.539,"body":"in that organization and you move"},{"startTime":3084.539,"endTime":3086.609,"body":"from project to project to project."},{"startTime":3087.089,"endTime":3089.779,"body":"And like, depending on how you do, as"},{"startTime":3087.089,"endTime":3089.779,"body":"you move from project to project to"},{"startTime":3089.779,"endTime":3092.969,"body":"project, you rank up in the organization."},{"startTime":3093.389,"endTime":3093.739,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3094.239,"endTime":3096.999,"body":"So I don't understand like if"},{"startTime":3094.239,"endTime":3096.999,"body":"somebody has a skillset of a"},{"startTime":3096.999,"endTime":3098.409,"body":"scr, like how, how, I don't know."},{"startTime":3098.414,"endTime":3100.119,"body":"Is it, is it an organizational thing?"},{"startTime":3100.119,"endTime":3100.929,"body":"Is that the problem?"},{"startTime":3101.289,"endTime":3105.189,"body":"If, if, if you show that you have"},{"startTime":3101.289,"endTime":3105.189,"body":"a, a skillset of a scrum master."},{"startTime":3105.689,"endTime":3111.449,"body":"And that we already talked way earlier"},{"startTime":3105.689,"endTime":3111.449,"body":"in, in like in, we already talked way"},{"startTime":3111.449,"endTime":3115.889,"body":"earlier today about like, if you have"},{"startTime":3111.449,"endTime":3115.889,"body":"the skill, like usually a very good scrum"},{"startTime":3115.889,"endTime":3119.429,"body":"master has a bunch of like tangent skills."},{"startTime":3119.429,"endTime":3123.029,"body":"Like you, you, you're good scrum"},{"startTime":3119.429,"endTime":3123.029,"body":"master, which means you have solid"},{"startTime":3123.034,"endTime":3126.899,"body":"facilitation skills, but you also know"},{"startTime":3123.034,"endTime":3126.899,"body":"whether what a product owner should be"},{"startTime":3126.899,"endTime":3128.399,"body":"doing and you can help them do that."},{"startTime":3128.404,"endTime":3131.489,"body":"Maybe have some like, maybe some"},{"startTime":3128.404,"endTime":3131.489,"body":"BA skills, maybe have a little"},{"startTime":3131.494,"endTime":3132.419,"body":"bit of development skills."},{"startTime":3132.419,"endTime":3135.359,"body":"You at least you can speak the language,"},{"startTime":3132.419,"endTime":3135.359,"body":"maybe have some test skills or whatever."},{"startTime":3135.359,"endTime":3135.719,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3135.719,"endTime":3141.089,"body":"Like you can get around, um like if you"},{"startTime":3135.719,"endTime":3141.089,"body":"have the skill set of a scrum master and"},{"startTime":3141.319,"endTime":3144.679,"body":"you understand scaling, or maybe you've"},{"startTime":3141.319,"endTime":3144.679,"body":"worked in the scaling environment before,"},{"startTime":3144.949,"endTime":3149.629,"body":"I don't understand why you can't just"},{"startTime":3144.949,"endTime":3149.629,"body":"move over with your hierarchical rank in"},{"startTime":3149.629,"endTime":3154.099,"body":"the organization and become the release"},{"startTime":3149.629,"endTime":3154.099,"body":"train engineer and just get named with"},{"startTime":3154.104,"endTime":3155.749,"body":"the release training engineer job title."},{"startTime":3156.319,"endTime":3158.659,"body":"You, you can, I think"},{"startTime":3156.319,"endTime":3158.659,"body":"what you do need is a."},{"startTime":3159.049,"endTime":3163.669,"body":"Bench for dealing with stakeholders"},{"startTime":3159.049,"endTime":3163.669,"body":"at a higher level than a scrum master"},{"startTime":3163.669,"endTime":3166.729,"body":"normally does, but it's not something"},{"startTime":3163.669,"endTime":3166.729,"body":"they, they can't do, obviously."},{"startTime":3166.729,"endTime":3166.999,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3167.004,"endTime":3167.489,"body":"I mean, yeah, they, yeah."},{"startTime":3167.509,"endTime":3168.769,"body":"It's a learned skill anyway."},{"startTime":3168.774,"endTime":3168.809,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3168.809,"endTime":3169.049,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3169.149,"endTime":3170.629,"body":"So yeah, you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":3170.659,"endTime":3174.589,"body":"It does require that there's a"},{"startTime":3170.659,"endTime":3174.589,"body":"recognition on the organization side"},{"startTime":3174.589,"endTime":3175.969,"body":"that that role needs to be filled."},{"startTime":3175.974,"endTime":3176.089,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3176.359,"endTime":3179.789,"body":"And that's what's missing in many"},{"startTime":3176.359,"endTime":3179.789,"body":"places leadership issue, basically."},{"startTime":3179.794,"endTime":3180.359,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":3180.419,"endTime":3184.079,"body":"But at the same time, then they have these"},{"startTime":3180.419,"endTime":3184.079,"body":"other, what I call redundant roles, right."},{"startTime":3184.229,"endTime":3187.359,"body":"Like master scrum master, I"},{"startTime":3184.229,"endTime":3187.359,"body":"just I, I split my coffee here."},{"startTime":3187.359,"endTime":3188.919,"body":"It's like, what do you mean a master?"},{"startTime":3188.924,"endTime":3190.449,"body":"What am I then a slave scrum master."},{"startTime":3190.509,"endTime":3191.199,"body":"They're a master."},{"startTime":3191.319,"endTime":3191.679,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3191.739,"endTime":3193.629,"body":"They're a master scrum master."},{"startTime":3194.139,"endTime":3194.829,"body":"Unbelievable."},{"startTime":3195.329,"endTime":3195.689,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3196.189,"endTime":3196.579,"body":"Oh man."},{"startTime":3197.209,"endTime":3199.359,"body":"Master scrum, master msm."},{"startTime":3199.539,"endTime":3200.709,"body":"That doesn't even sound right."},{"startTime":3200.714,"endTime":3202.444,"body":"That's, it doesn't, it's sounds terrible."},{"startTime":3202.449,"endTime":3206.934,"body":"It, it, it really smacks the command and"},{"startTime":3202.449,"endTime":3206.934,"body":"control, and that's kind of how things"},{"startTime":3207.094,"endTime":3208.614,"body":"are played out on a day-to-day basis."},{"startTime":3208.614,"endTime":3210.849,"body":"Is command and control."},{"startTime":3210.909,"endTime":3213.719,"body":"Oh that was the, that's not on"},{"startTime":3210.909,"endTime":3213.719,"body":"my list of things for us to talk"},{"startTime":3213.719,"endTime":3214.829,"body":"about, but that's a good one."},{"startTime":3214.919,"endTime":3217.459,"body":"Like, I, I also see the other thing."},{"startTime":3217.519,"endTime":3221.749,"body":"Oh, oh, you know what this, I should say"},{"startTime":3217.519,"endTime":3221.749,"body":"this one for another podcast, but I'm not"},{"startTime":3221.749,"endTime":3222.889,"body":"going to, we're gonna talk about it now."},{"startTime":3223.279,"endTime":3229.159,"body":"So I hired a product owner, first"},{"startTime":3223.279,"endTime":3229.159,"body":"product owner I've ever hired as part"},{"startTime":3229.209,"endTime":3231.519,"body":"of my duties to my client interview."},{"startTime":3231.669,"endTime":3235.329,"body":"We go through the interview, I ask"},{"startTime":3231.669,"endTime":3235.329,"body":"my questions, bring people on board"},{"startTime":3235.329,"endTime":3238.749,"body":"based on like, how they do with"},{"startTime":3235.329,"endTime":3238.749,"body":"my questions, and then they talk"},{"startTime":3238.754,"endTime":3239.979,"body":"to other people in the business."},{"startTime":3240.429,"endTime":3243.659,"body":"And I was like, Ugh, this person's"},{"startTime":3240.429,"endTime":3243.659,"body":"got got a great head on the shoulders."},{"startTime":3243.659,"endTime":3244.709,"body":"They answer all my questions."},{"startTime":3244.709,"endTime":3245.159,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":3245.429,"endTime":3248.459,"body":"They seem to understand, understand"},{"startTime":3245.429,"endTime":3248.459,"body":"the, the scrum process very well."},{"startTime":3249.149,"endTime":3250.524,"body":"And we brought them on board."},{"startTime":3250.894,"endTime":3257.739,"body":"Their, their background was a project"},{"startTime":3250.894,"endTime":3257.739,"body":"manager and they could not, they."},{"startTime":3258.239,"endTime":3258.839,"body":"Could not do."},{"startTime":3258.839,"endTime":3261.119,"body":"They were just like"},{"startTime":3258.839,"endTime":3261.119,"body":"overwhelmed from day one."},{"startTime":3261.659,"endTime":3266.129,"body":"And I felt very bad because I was"},{"startTime":3261.659,"endTime":3266.129,"body":"like I was like, I, I have my C S P"},{"startTime":3266.139,"endTime":3270.179,"body":"O I, I have my csm, I've been working"},{"startTime":3266.139,"endTime":3270.179,"body":"in the field for a couple years."},{"startTime":3270.179,"endTime":3272.559,"body":"Like, I, I should have seen this."},{"startTime":3273.009,"endTime":3278.449,"body":"I was like, how could I not have"},{"startTime":3273.009,"endTime":3278.449,"body":"seen this that I, were they just"},{"startTime":3278.449,"endTime":3281.239,"body":"really good at interviewing and"},{"startTime":3278.449,"endTime":3281.239,"body":"selling themselves, you think?"},{"startTime":3281.239,"endTime":3285.419,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I mean I thought about"},{"startTime":3281.239,"endTime":3285.419,"body":"that, but I was like, no, no, I, I"},{"startTime":3285.419,"endTime":3291.919,"body":"think what the issue was, I think what"},{"startTime":3285.419,"endTime":3291.919,"body":"the issue was is that there I think"},{"startTime":3291.919,"endTime":3295.579,"body":"what the issue was is let me, lemme"},{"startTime":3291.919,"endTime":3295.579,"body":"see if I can, I'm, I'll throw this out"},{"startTime":3295.579,"endTime":3299.359,"body":"there and you, you, you, you see if"},{"startTime":3295.579,"endTime":3299.359,"body":"you understand it and if you don't ask"},{"startTime":3299.359,"endTime":3302.269,"body":"me some more questions about it cuz I,"},{"startTime":3299.359,"endTime":3302.269,"body":"I'm not sure if I understand myself."},{"startTime":3302.269,"endTime":3307.549,"body":"So the issue was this person was"},{"startTime":3302.269,"endTime":3307.549,"body":"a project manager, p p certified"},{"startTime":3307.549,"endTime":3308.949,"body":"project manager in another life."},{"startTime":3309.889,"endTime":3317.109,"body":"Turned scrum Master slash Agile coach"},{"startTime":3309.889,"endTime":3317.109,"body":"worked for many years as a Scrum"},{"startTime":3317.109,"endTime":3320.819,"body":"master slash agile coach occasionally"},{"startTime":3317.109,"endTime":3320.819,"body":"dipped into product ownership,"},{"startTime":3321.269,"endTime":3324.449,"body":"and now is taking a full-time"},{"startTime":3321.269,"endTime":3324.449,"body":"permanent role as a product owner."},{"startTime":3325.259,"endTime":3325.589,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":3326.249,"endTime":3329.224,"body":"So  we talked about before, it's"},{"startTime":3326.249,"endTime":3329.224,"body":"like if you're, if you are an, if"},{"startTime":3329.229,"endTime":3334.624,"body":"you are a, if you're a Scrum master,"},{"startTime":3329.229,"endTime":3334.624,"body":"you have at least a, a, a tangent of"},{"startTime":3334.624,"endTime":3336.124,"body":"knowledge about product ownership."},{"startTime":3336.964,"endTime":3339.274,"body":"If you're an agile coach, you"},{"startTime":3336.964,"endTime":3339.274,"body":"probably have a little bit of deeper"},{"startTime":3339.274,"endTime":3341.084,"body":"knowledge of product ownership, right?"},{"startTime":3341.314,"endTime":3344.404,"body":"Like a little bit, maybe a little bit"},{"startTime":3341.314,"endTime":3344.404,"body":"deeper, maybe a little bit more season."},{"startTime":3344.404,"endTime":3346.084,"body":"Maybe you've done it for a"},{"startTime":3344.404,"endTime":3346.084,"body":"little bit, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3346.744,"endTime":3349.874,"body":"Um, but The interview questions."},{"startTime":3349.874,"endTime":3353.714,"body":"Like, I, I feel the interview questions"},{"startTime":3349.874,"endTime":3353.714,"body":"that I was asking up until that"},{"startTime":3353.714,"endTime":3360.854,"body":"point were more scrum fundamental"},{"startTime":3353.714,"endTime":3360.854,"body":"focused than they were product"},{"startTime":3360.859,"endTime":3362.654,"body":"ownership and business focused."},{"startTime":3363.584,"endTime":3363.914,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3364.494,"endTime":3369.304,"body":"And I feel, I feel because of that"},{"startTime":3364.494,"endTime":3369.304,"body":"I feel because of that I missed a"},{"startTime":3369.304,"endTime":3372.784,"body":"big gap in the person's experience."},{"startTime":3373.084,"endTime":3377.194,"body":"So this person that you are, you're"},{"startTime":3373.084,"endTime":3377.194,"body":"describing sounds like my journey."},{"startTime":3377.194,"endTime":3380.444,"body":"You know, PMP worked as a"},{"startTime":3377.194,"endTime":3380.444,"body":"project manager for many years."},{"startTime":3381.394,"endTime":3384.904,"body":"Um, turned Scrum master, worked"},{"startTime":3381.394,"endTime":3384.904,"body":"as a scrum master for some years,"},{"startTime":3384.904,"endTime":3385.924,"body":"and then turned as a coach."},{"startTime":3385.924,"endTime":3390.574,"body":"But I'll tell you this, it's hard"},{"startTime":3385.924,"endTime":3390.574,"body":"for some people to let go of their"},{"startTime":3390.964,"endTime":3392.734,"body":"mentality of project management."},{"startTime":3392.739,"endTime":3393.004,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3393.034,"endTime":3396.519,"body":"Which is you create work packages for"},{"startTime":3393.034,"endTime":3396.519,"body":"people, you tell 'em what they're gonna be"},{"startTime":3396.519,"endTime":3398.169,"body":"working on and when they're gonna be done."},{"startTime":3398.469,"endTime":3398.589,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3398.589,"endTime":3398.919,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3398.924,"endTime":3402.159,"body":"And if you can't let go of"},{"startTime":3398.924,"endTime":3402.159,"body":"that, it's gonna haunt you."},{"startTime":3402.159,"endTime":3402.519,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3402.579,"endTime":3406.704,"body":"If even though you have a different"},{"startTime":3402.579,"endTime":3406.704,"body":"title that is something that I"},{"startTime":3406.704,"endTime":3408.474,"body":"work actively to get let go of."},{"startTime":3408.564,"endTime":3412.884,"body":"Um because being a project manager"},{"startTime":3408.564,"endTime":3412.884,"body":"for many years, that's what I did."},{"startTime":3412.944,"endTime":3413.664,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":3413.964,"endTime":3419.484,"body":"Um, but then I realized, so my transition"},{"startTime":3413.964,"endTime":3419.484,"body":"wasn't like overnight or anything, even"},{"startTime":3419.484,"endTime":3423.234,"body":"as a project manager, I was trying to"},{"startTime":3419.484,"endTime":3423.234,"body":"incorporate some elements of what we"},{"startTime":3423.239,"endTime":3425.724,"body":"know are, are good agile principles."},{"startTime":3425.724,"endTime":3428.454,"body":"Like, for example, bringing"},{"startTime":3425.724,"endTime":3428.454,"body":"stakeholders in mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3428.784,"endTime":3431.754,"body":"To do what are now known"},{"startTime":3428.784,"endTime":3431.754,"body":"as print reviews and demos."},{"startTime":3431.784,"endTime":3433.314,"body":"We used to do those Right."},{"startTime":3433.314,"endTime":3436.194,"body":"Just say, is this kind of along the"},{"startTime":3433.314,"endTime":3436.194,"body":"right lines of what you're thinking?"},{"startTime":3436.194,"endTime":3436.404,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3436.614,"endTime":3439.224,"body":"Um, wasn't, didn't have a"},{"startTime":3436.614,"endTime":3439.224,"body":"title or anything like that,"},{"startTime":3439.224,"endTime":3440.245,"body":"just had those sessions, but."},{"startTime":3440.745,"endTime":3444.345,"body":"If, if your interview process is"},{"startTime":3440.745,"endTime":3444.345,"body":"focusing on Scrum fundamentals, then"},{"startTime":3444.345,"endTime":3446.205,"body":"you are absolutely going to miss, right?"},{"startTime":3446.21,"endTime":3446.495,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3446.715,"endTime":3451.455,"body":"The, the product owner angle, which"},{"startTime":3446.715,"endTime":3451.455,"body":"is largely in the business arena,"},{"startTime":3451.665,"endTime":3453.285,"body":"it is really understand, right?"},{"startTime":3453.285,"endTime":3453.286,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3453.585,"endTime":3457.875,"body":"Um, what is it that this business"},{"startTime":3453.585,"endTime":3457.875,"body":"objective is fulfilling towards"},{"startTime":3457.875,"endTime":3459.345,"body":"the mission this year, right."},{"startTime":3459.345,"endTime":3460.275,"body":"Of the organization?"},{"startTime":3460.275,"endTime":3461.325,"body":"How does that fit in?"},{"startTime":3461.325,"endTime":3461.415,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3461.645,"endTime":3466.515,"body":"How do, how does the budget contribute to"},{"startTime":3461.645,"endTime":3466.515,"body":"the organizational goals for that year?"},{"startTime":3466.785,"endTime":3470.235,"body":"If they don't understand that those"},{"startTime":3466.785,"endTime":3470.235,"body":"things and can't answer those questions"},{"startTime":3470.595,"endTime":3474.225,"body":"yeah, they can know Scrum very well,"},{"startTime":3470.595,"endTime":3474.225,"body":"but they're not gonna succeed as a po."},{"startTime":3474.285,"endTime":3474.555,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3475.265,"endTime":3477.085,"body":"I, I, dude, I like."},{"startTime":3477.585,"endTime":3480.045,"body":"Like I did a lot of soul"},{"startTime":3477.585,"endTime":3480.045,"body":"searching after that."},{"startTime":3480.045,"endTime":3480.105,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3480.135,"endTime":3484.255,"body":"After that, because I like, uh dude, I"},{"startTime":3480.135,"endTime":3484.255,"body":"have this like, weird thing about myself."},{"startTime":3484.255,"endTime":3490.025,"body":"I was like, I don't like my, my, since I"},{"startTime":3484.255,"endTime":3490.025,"body":"hired people, like they're their failure."},{"startTime":3490.175,"endTime":3492.345,"body":"Like, I feel like it's"},{"startTime":3490.175,"endTime":3492.345,"body":"like it's my failure."},{"startTime":3492.345,"endTime":3493.545,"body":"It's not really their failure."},{"startTime":3493.695,"endTime":3496.215,"body":"Like, I didn't set them up"},{"startTime":3493.695,"endTime":3496.215,"body":"for success to start with."},{"startTime":3496.845,"endTime":3497.295,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3497.725,"endTime":3501.05,"body":"I, I'm like the, like the other"},{"startTime":3497.725,"endTime":3501.05,"body":"part of me is  the company I'm"},{"startTime":3501.05,"endTime":3502.34,"body":"working for, like they're startup."},{"startTime":3502.7,"endTime":3503.0,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3503.18,"endTime":3506.47,"body":", to to be honest, like startups,"},{"startTime":3503.18,"endTime":3506.47,"body":"like startups are needy."},{"startTime":3506.71,"endTime":3507.13,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3507.19,"endTime":3507.46,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3507.49,"endTime":3508.57,"body":"Startups are needy."},{"startTime":3508.69,"endTime":3511.84,"body":"So it's like, you, you can't"},{"startTime":3508.69,"endTime":3511.84,"body":"hire somebody in, in a startup."},{"startTime":3512.11,"endTime":3516.095,"body":"Like, I'm, I, I I, I, I don't, I"},{"startTime":3512.11,"endTime":3516.095,"body":"don't even know what you would say"},{"startTime":3516.095,"endTime":3519.515,"body":"in an interview to be like, Hey"},{"startTime":3516.095,"endTime":3519.515,"body":"man, are you prepared to work at a"},{"startTime":3519.515,"endTime":3521.255,"body":"startup because startups are needy?"},{"startTime":3521.26,"endTime":3524.705,"body":"Like, that's the, that's the"},{"startTime":3521.26,"endTime":3524.705,"body":"most plain way I can say."},{"startTime":3525.2,"endTime":3525.62,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3525.68,"endTime":3527.9,"body":"And in reality, like what,"},{"startTime":3525.68,"endTime":3527.9,"body":"what does that translate to?"},{"startTime":3528.08,"endTime":3530.69,"body":"That translates to like, startups"},{"startTime":3528.08,"endTime":3530.69,"body":"are like, they want your time."},{"startTime":3530.96,"endTime":3533.48,"body":"Like whenever they want,"},{"startTime":3530.96,"endTime":3533.48,"body":"whenever they need it, they need"},{"startTime":3533.48,"endTime":3534.53,"body":"to be able to get your time."},{"startTime":3534.92,"endTime":3537.2,"body":"You know, that's not a fair thing to ask."},{"startTime":3537.7,"endTime":3538.12,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3538.12,"endTime":3538.78,"body":"I, I concur."},{"startTime":3538.78,"endTime":3542.39,"body":"I think it takes a certain type of"},{"startTime":3538.78,"endTime":3542.39,"body":"personality to work in a startup."},{"startTime":3542.92,"endTime":3543.01,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3543.01,"endTime":3543.91,"body":"It isn't for everybody."},{"startTime":3543.915,"endTime":3546.25,"body":"You have to be comfortable"},{"startTime":3543.915,"endTime":3546.25,"body":"with the unknown."},{"startTime":3546.79,"endTime":3550.07,"body":"Um you don't have to, you"},{"startTime":3546.79,"endTime":3550.07,"body":"have to be comfortable with"},{"startTime":3550.075,"endTime":3552.02,"body":"the non-real way of working."},{"startTime":3552.47,"endTime":3554.27,"body":"Um, and, and an"},{"startTime":3552.47,"endTime":3554.27,"body":"established way of working."},{"startTime":3554.3,"endTime":3554.42,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3554.99,"endTime":3555.89,"body":"Figure it out as you go."},{"startTime":3555.89,"endTime":3557.15,"body":"A long type of mentality."},{"startTime":3557.155,"endTime":3557.45,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3557.87,"endTime":3562.46,"body":"Um, if you're not comfortable in that,"},{"startTime":3557.87,"endTime":3562.46,"body":"you are gonna be out outta position there."},{"startTime":3562.46,"endTime":3562.67,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3562.67,"endTime":3562.79,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3562.795,"endTime":3564.115,"body":"You won't, you won't last long."},{"startTime":3564.615,"endTime":3567.73,"body":"Yeah, that's that's, that was a paper"},{"startTime":3564.615,"endTime":3567.73,"body":"millionaire a couple of times back"},{"startTime":3567.73,"endTime":3569.72,"body":"in the heyday of the hey, internet."},{"startTime":3569.72,"endTime":3575.32,"body":"Hey, I had stock that didn't really, it"},{"startTime":3569.72,"endTime":3575.32,"body":"wasn't worth much in the end, but just"},{"startTime":3575.32,"endTime":3579.7,"body":"pre ipo we were going around picking out"},{"startTime":3575.32,"endTime":3579.7,"body":"our exotic cars, thinking I'm gonna buy"},{"startTime":3579.7,"endTime":3582.28,"body":"one of those cuz I have enough on paper."},{"startTime":3583.12,"endTime":3584.14,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":3584.17,"endTime":3587.83,"body":"Um, but startup was, was"},{"startTime":3584.17,"endTime":3587.83,"body":"really, the pace was frenetic."},{"startTime":3588.22,"endTime":3592.27,"body":"And because you see other people working"},{"startTime":3588.22,"endTime":3592.27,"body":"in that way, it rubs off on you too."},{"startTime":3592.3,"endTime":3593.62,"body":"Yeah, I really like that."},{"startTime":3593.625,"endTime":3596.5,"body":"I really like the, the,"},{"startTime":3593.625,"endTime":3596.5,"body":"the adrenaline at the time."},{"startTime":3596.5,"endTime":3596.97,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3597.49,"endTime":3600.82,"body":"But if somebody's like, towards the end"},{"startTime":3597.49,"endTime":3600.82,"body":"of their career, that's not for them."},{"startTime":3600.82,"endTime":3601.12,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3601.75,"endTime":3603.07,"body":"It's too much uncertainty for them."},{"startTime":3603.31,"endTime":3603.55,"body":"Dude."},{"startTime":3603.61,"endTime":3604.39,"body":"I don't know, man."},{"startTime":3604.395,"endTime":3609.97,"body":"I, I, I think, I think like it, like"},{"startTime":3604.395,"endTime":3609.97,"body":"it really isn't for a lot of people."},{"startTime":3610.42,"endTime":3613.536,"body":"Like, but, but, but, but like, I don't"},{"startTime":3610.42,"endTime":3613.536,"body":"think they real I mean like, I gotta"},{"startTime":3613.541,"endTime":3616.94,"body":"think about like, It is different for"},{"startTime":3613.541,"endTime":3616.94,"body":"me because I'm not in the phase of"},{"startTime":3616.94,"endTime":3620.45,"body":"my career where like, I need a job."},{"startTime":3620.81,"endTime":3621.29,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3621.89,"endTime":3624.59,"body":"Like, I need to have a job."},{"startTime":3625.06,"endTime":3628.495,"body":"So it's different plus like I have"},{"startTime":3625.06,"endTime":3628.495,"body":"enough experience and enough uh"},{"startTime":3628.995,"endTime":3632.26,"body":"skill and whatever, variation on"},{"startTime":3628.995,"endTime":3632.26,"body":"what I've been doing in my career,"},{"startTime":3632.26,"endTime":3634.0,"body":"whatever, to, to be marketable."},{"startTime":3634.0,"endTime":3637.26,"body":", I I dunno, it's, it's"},{"startTime":3634.0,"endTime":3637.26,"body":"just different for me."},{"startTime":3637.82,"endTime":3639.57,"body":"It, it, it's, it's very strange."},{"startTime":3639.6,"endTime":3641.7,"body":"It's very, it is a very"},{"startTime":3639.6,"endTime":3641.7,"body":"strange thing to explain too."},{"startTime":3641.98,"endTime":3642.99,"body":"It is, it is."},{"startTime":3642.99,"endTime":3644.31,"body":"It's very strange is right."},{"startTime":3644.64,"endTime":3648.955,"body":"I, I think one of the things you might"},{"startTime":3644.64,"endTime":3648.955,"body":"wanna think about in, in a similar"},{"startTime":3648.955,"endTime":3654.615,"body":"situation next time is perhaps just extend"},{"startTime":3648.955,"endTime":3654.615,"body":"a trial of some kind to this person."},{"startTime":3654.615,"endTime":3656.805,"body":"Like, try him out for a"},{"startTime":3654.615,"endTime":3656.805,"body":"month and see how it goes."},{"startTime":3657.225,"endTime":3661.355,"body":"Um, with the caveat that everybody will"},{"startTime":3657.225,"endTime":3661.355,"body":"park company amicably unless, yeah."},{"startTime":3661.73,"endTime":3665.42,"body":"Unless every both sides agree that"},{"startTime":3661.73,"endTime":3665.42,"body":"it's working out, then you know, you"},{"startTime":3665.425,"endTime":3667.55,"body":"can flip it over to a permanent role."},{"startTime":3667.91,"endTime":3668.12,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3668.12,"endTime":3672.05,"body":"We, we used to do that in a, in a,"},{"startTime":3668.12,"endTime":3672.05,"body":"when I was a manager of the company"},{"startTime":3672.05,"endTime":3674.71,"body":"I worked for would do that, they"},{"startTime":3672.05,"endTime":3674.71,"body":"would do I don't remember what"},{"startTime":3674.71,"endTime":3677.36,"body":"the period was, 60 day or 90 day."},{"startTime":3677.36,"endTime":3680.92,"body":"I don't, I don't remember what the period"},{"startTime":3677.36,"endTime":3680.92,"body":"was, but they had a period of time worked"},{"startTime":3680.92,"endTime":3685.62,"body":"out where it was like a, it was like a"},{"startTime":3680.92,"endTime":3685.62,"body":"like a probationary period or whatever."},{"startTime":3685.62,"endTime":3687.21,"body":"It wasn't called, I don't"},{"startTime":3685.62,"endTime":3687.21,"body":"remember what they called it,"},{"startTime":3687.21,"endTime":3688.2,"body":"but that, that's what it was."},{"startTime":3688.205,"endTime":3690.03,"body":"Basically, it was a"},{"startTime":3688.205,"endTime":3690.03,"body":"probationary period, right."},{"startTime":3690.3,"endTime":3691.38,"body":"You know, trial period."},{"startTime":3691.38,"endTime":3694.615,"body":"But for the employee and the"},{"startTime":3691.38,"endTime":3694.615,"body":"employer and where anybody could"},{"startTime":3694.615,"endTime":3696.145,"body":"decide like, this isn't for me."},{"startTime":3696.535,"endTime":3696.955,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":3697.945,"endTime":3698.335,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":3699.175,"endTime":3703.285,"body":"The, the, the trouble with that kind"},{"startTime":3699.175,"endTime":3703.285,"body":"of stuff is like that, that is hard on"},{"startTime":3703.285,"endTime":3705.235,"body":"somebody who like really needs a job."},{"startTime":3705.265,"endTime":3705.955,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3706.75,"endTime":3707.11,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3707.11,"endTime":3711.19,"body":"But also you, you're right, I do agree,"},{"startTime":3707.11,"endTime":3711.19,"body":"but at the, at the same time hopefully"},{"startTime":3711.19,"endTime":3715.45,"body":"they can dig deeper and muster up"},{"startTime":3711.19,"endTime":3715.45,"body":"that extra motivation to make it work."},{"startTime":3715.51,"endTime":3715.93,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3715.93,"endTime":3720.73,"body":"I like, or, or, or realize within"},{"startTime":3715.93,"endTime":3720.73,"body":"that time period this is not for me."},{"startTime":3720.735,"endTime":3720.74,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3720.74,"endTime":3721.21,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3721.21,"endTime":3722.58,"body":"It's no facts, this is not gonna work."},{"startTime":3722.98,"endTime":3726.43,"body":"You know, like I, like in this instance"},{"startTime":3722.98,"endTime":3726.43,"body":"it was like, it was pretty obvious."},{"startTime":3726.43,"endTime":3730.96,"body":"Like, cuz like, my thing is"},{"startTime":3726.43,"endTime":3730.96,"body":"like, I'm going to do whatever."},{"startTime":3730.96,"endTime":3733.87,"body":"I need to understand the, I'm a product"},{"startTime":3730.96,"endTime":3733.87,"body":"owner, so I'm gonna do whatever I"},{"startTime":3733.87,"endTime":3734.83,"body":"need to understand the requirements."},{"startTime":3734.83,"endTime":3736.48,"body":"I'm gonna schedule time"},{"startTime":3734.83,"endTime":3736.48,"body":"with whatever I need."},{"startTime":3736.63,"endTime":3739.81,"body":"Like, if I can't get time with people"},{"startTime":3736.63,"endTime":3739.81,"body":"during normal business hours, I'm"},{"startTime":3739.81,"endTime":3744.07,"body":"gonna schedule time whenever I can get"},{"startTime":3739.81,"endTime":3744.07,"body":"them and I'll work it out with them."},{"startTime":3744.31,"endTime":3744.73,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3744.73,"endTime":3748.21,"body":"And like, we'll get what needs to"},{"startTime":3744.73,"endTime":3748.21,"body":"be done or whatever documented, but"},{"startTime":3748.24,"endTime":3752.04,"body":"I'm gonna use every, every every"},{"startTime":3748.24,"endTime":3752.04,"body":"means available to me to do it."},{"startTime":3752.16,"endTime":3755.9,"body":"And like, this is what I was like, even"},{"startTime":3752.16,"endTime":3755.9,"body":"though I was working here in town and"},{"startTime":3755.955,"endTime":3759.95,"body":"I was working at a client here in town"},{"startTime":3755.955,"endTime":3759.95,"body":"when I was When I was before I joined"},{"startTime":3759.95,"endTime":3764.2,"body":"ca and I was super effective with"},{"startTime":3759.95,"endTime":3764.2,"body":"them because I would do exactly that."},{"startTime":3764.2,"endTime":3768.29,"body":"Like I, I'd go set, I was a, I"},{"startTime":3764.2,"endTime":3768.29,"body":"was, I was like a, I, I, I guess"},{"startTime":3768.295,"endTime":3770.78,"body":"I was sort of in a BA type role."},{"startTime":3771.28,"endTime":3776.76,"body":"Maybe like a 50% ba, 50%"},{"startTime":3771.28,"endTime":3776.76,"body":"like test, test related role."},{"startTime":3776.82,"endTime":3780.81,"body":"It wasn't really a it was a very"},{"startTime":3776.82,"endTime":3780.81,"body":"weird position, but like I was the"},{"startTime":3780.81,"endTime":3785.55,"body":"BA that was like, you can point me at"},{"startTime":3780.81,"endTime":3785.55,"body":"something and like I go figure it out."},{"startTime":3785.555,"endTime":3786.55,"body":"Like, I don't really need supervision."},{"startTime":3787.09,"endTime":3787.89,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3787.92,"endTime":3788.7,"body":"I go figure it out."},{"startTime":3788.73,"endTime":3792.44,"body":"Then they, the, the, the, this was"},{"startTime":3788.73,"endTime":3792.44,"body":"like a the client at the time was"},{"startTime":3792.44,"endTime":3794.9,"body":"a very traditional PMO structure."},{"startTime":3795.11,"endTime":3798.59,"body":"So they had project managers and"},{"startTime":3795.11,"endTime":3798.59,"body":"each project had a BA that would"},{"startTime":3798.59,"endTime":3800.51,"body":"spin up before the project began."},{"startTime":3800.51,"endTime":3803.39,"body":"They'd run for a certain amount of"},{"startTime":3800.51,"endTime":3803.39,"body":"time, then they hand off the project"},{"startTime":3803.395,"endTime":3807.5,"body":"requirements, the teams or, or"},{"startTime":3803.395,"endTime":3807.5,"body":"whoever else, or you know, whatever,"},{"startTime":3807.83,"endTime":3809.24,"body":"developers, qa, whatever it is."},{"startTime":3809.6,"endTime":3809.66,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3809.72,"endTime":3814.525,"body":"And uh I kind of got deployed a little"},{"startTime":3809.72,"endTime":3814.525,"body":"bit as the BA that ran ahead, but then"},{"startTime":3814.525,"endTime":3820.105,"body":"a little bit as the QA that ran after"},{"startTime":3814.525,"endTime":3820.105,"body":"and on different projects I was in"},{"startTime":3820.105,"endTime":3823.885,"body":"front and on other projects I was in the"},{"startTime":3820.105,"endTime":3823.885,"body":"back, which is super annoying sometimes."},{"startTime":3824.385,"endTime":3828.935,"body":"But But yeah, I, I, I remember, I remember"},{"startTime":3824.385,"endTime":3828.935,"body":"them telling me in one of the, one of the"},{"startTime":3828.995,"endTime":3832.985,"body":"feedbacks, a yearly feedback to whatever"},{"startTime":3828.995,"endTime":3832.985,"body":"was like, you're really, really effective"},{"startTime":3833.435,"endTime":3837.235,"body":"and we're really happy to have they they"},{"startTime":3833.435,"endTime":3837.235,"body":"offered me a position and I was like um,"},{"startTime":3837.565,"endTime":3839.065,"body":"they're like, you're really effective."},{"startTime":3839.065,"endTime":3841.935,"body":"We're really happy to have you because"},{"startTime":3839.065,"endTime":3841.935,"body":"like, it seems like we give you the"},{"startTime":3842.005,"endTime":3846.325,"body":"goal and then you take that goal and"},{"startTime":3842.005,"endTime":3846.325,"body":"you figure out how to accomplish it."},{"startTime":3846.325,"endTime":3849.205,"body":"And I'm like, yeah, I figure out"},{"startTime":3846.325,"endTime":3849.205,"body":"how to accomplish it cuz you guys"},{"startTime":3849.205,"endTime":3850.765,"body":"don't care about how I go about it."},{"startTime":3850.765,"endTime":3854.845,"body":"So it's like, if I sit outside some"},{"startTime":3850.765,"endTime":3854.845,"body":"executive's office who has been with"},{"startTime":3854.845,"endTime":3857.875,"body":"the company for 15 years, and you"},{"startTime":3854.845,"endTime":3857.875,"body":"should be a developer, and they're"},{"startTime":3857.88,"endTime":3860.295,"body":"the person who wrote this software"},{"startTime":3857.88,"endTime":3860.295,"body":"and they're the only person who"},{"startTime":3860.515,"endTime":3861.565,"body":"knows how the software operates."},{"startTime":3861.715,"endTime":3865.495,"body":"Like, I'll sit outside their office"},{"startTime":3861.715,"endTime":3865.495,"body":"when they're booked all day back to"},{"startTime":3865.495,"endTime":3868.765,"body":"back to back meetings and wait for"},{"startTime":3865.495,"endTime":3868.765,"body":"them to come back to their office to"},{"startTime":3868.765,"endTime":3872.335,"body":"have a five minute conversation as they"},{"startTime":3868.765,"endTime":3872.335,"body":"walk through their next meeting to get"},{"startTime":3872.335,"endTime":3874.916,"body":"a small snippet of how the so, yeah."},{"startTime":3875.905,"endTime":3877.745,"body":"Yeah, that dogged determination is often."},{"startTime":3878.425,"endTime":3879.355,"body":"The key, I think."},{"startTime":3879.855,"endTime":3880.755,"body":"But, but it's rare."},{"startTime":3881.725,"endTime":3885.655,"body":", I like, dude, the other thing I want"},{"startTime":3881.725,"endTime":3885.655,"body":"to ask you so, so we talked about"},{"startTime":3885.66,"endTime":3888.415,"body":"earlier though, like one of the"},{"startTime":3885.66,"endTime":3888.415,"body":"things we talked about earlier was"},{"startTime":3888.715,"endTime":3890.515,"body":"what happens when a company starts?"},{"startTime":3890.585,"endTime":3893.875,"body":"Like, not really I'm gonna say penny"},{"startTime":3890.585,"endTime":3893.875,"body":"pinching, but that's not the word."},{"startTime":3893.88,"endTime":3894.475,"body":"I'm really mean."},{"startTime":3894.625,"endTime":3897.775,"body":"It's like that, that they're, they're"},{"startTime":3894.625,"endTime":3897.775,"body":"saying like, this, this happened to me."},{"startTime":3897.775,"endTime":3900.925,"body":"Actually, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll start"},{"startTime":3897.775,"endTime":3900.925,"body":"with a situation that happened to me."},{"startTime":3900.925,"endTime":3902.665,"body":"I'm not gonna, I, I"},{"startTime":3900.925,"endTime":3902.665,"body":"don't wanna blame anyone."},{"startTime":3903.085,"endTime":3906.145,"body":"So what happened to me was I don't"},{"startTime":3903.085,"endTime":3906.145,"body":"wanna blame anyone, but let me tell"},{"startTime":3906.145,"endTime":3907.825,"body":"you, let me tell you about my traumas."},{"startTime":3908.155,"endTime":3909.145,"body":", no, uh uh uh."},{"startTime":3909.355,"endTime":3911.785,"body":"So it's not really like, it's not bad."},{"startTime":3911.785,"endTime":3913.435,"body":"I'm not really mad about"},{"startTime":3911.785,"endTime":3913.435,"body":"it or anything, but"},{"startTime":3913.485,"endTime":3914.805,"body":"I'm not salty or anything."},{"startTime":3914.805,"endTime":3915.615,"body":"But here we go."},{"startTime":3916.125,"endTime":3922.055,"body":"Uh no, the situation was when, when Covid"},{"startTime":3916.125,"endTime":3922.055,"body":"started, the company took a look at its"},{"startTime":3922.055,"endTime":3927.185,"body":"books and is like, hey, like why would"},{"startTime":3922.055,"endTime":3927.185,"body":"we have an onshore scrum master and pay"},{"startTime":3927.185,"endTime":3933.785,"body":"you X amount when we can have an offshore"},{"startTime":3927.185,"endTime":3933.785,"body":"scrum master and pay them whatever, a half"},{"startTime":3933.795,"endTime":3936.515,"body":"third pennies on the dollar, basically."},{"startTime":3936.635,"endTime":3941.935,"body":"Uh so  I bring that up because my client"},{"startTime":3936.635,"endTime":3941.935,"body":"now is asking me like, Hey, we have, we"},{"startTime":3941.935,"endTime":3947.605,"body":"have this team that's offshore and we have"},{"startTime":3941.935,"endTime":3947.605,"body":"some developers that are offshore and our"},{"startTime":3947.61,"endTime":3954.015,"body":"scrum masters on shore, like our offshore"},{"startTime":3947.61,"endTime":3954.015,"body":"people are offering us like, I see you"},{"startTime":3954.015,"endTime":3955.935,"body":"smiling cuz you know where I'm going."},{"startTime":3956.055,"endTime":3956.145,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3956.295,"endTime":3960.985,"body":"Our offshore custom offshore vendor"},{"startTime":3956.295,"endTime":3960.985,"body":"or whatever is offering, like they"},{"startTime":3960.99,"endTime":3963.025,"body":"say they have a scrum master offshore."},{"startTime":3963.325,"endTime":3964.885,"body":"It's pennies on the dollar."},{"startTime":3965.155,"endTime":3965.725,"body":"Like what?"},{"startTime":3965.725,"endTime":3968.92,"body":"Like, Why don't we go in"},{"startTime":3965.725,"endTime":3968.92,"body":"an offshore scrum master?"},{"startTime":3969.22,"endTime":3970.15,"body":"Like what?"},{"startTime":3970.33,"endTime":3973.02,"body":"Dude, I, I want to ask"},{"startTime":3970.33,"endTime":3973.02,"body":"this in a, in a, in."},{"startTime":3973.08,"endTime":3973.3,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":3973.41,"endTime":3979.32,"body":"So I have a thought on this that"},{"startTime":3973.41,"endTime":3979.32,"body":"everybody listening to this probably knows"},{"startTime":3979.32,"endTime":3980.61,"body":"exactly what my thought is right now."},{"startTime":3981.21,"endTime":3984.781,"body":"So I'm not gonna ask that question cuz"},{"startTime":3981.21,"endTime":3984.781,"body":"that, that, that is, that's played out."},{"startTime":3984.786,"endTime":3988.77,"body":"The question I'm gonna ask is,"},{"startTime":3984.786,"endTime":3988.77,"body":"how could I go with an offshore"},{"startTime":3988.77,"endTime":3990.93,"body":"scrum master and be successful?"},{"startTime":3991.32,"endTime":3992.61,"body":"That's the question I'm gonna ask."},{"startTime":3993.39,"endTime":3994.86,"body":"That's an excellent question."},{"startTime":3994.86,"endTime":3998.09,"body":"And, and I think a lot of organizations"},{"startTime":3994.86,"endTime":3998.09,"body":"are struggling with this, right?"},{"startTime":3998.09,"endTime":4002.14,"body":"Because it's purely an economical"},{"startTime":3998.09,"endTime":4002.14,"body":"decision and it's a no-brainer for them."},{"startTime":4002.145,"endTime":4003.76,"body":"Like you said, it's pennies on a dollar."},{"startTime":4003.79,"endTime":4003.94,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4004.63,"endTime":4006.54,"body":"Um, two things I'll say."},{"startTime":4007.17,"endTime":4009.69,"body":"Can it be done and can you be effective?"},{"startTime":4009.75,"endTime":4010.29,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4010.62,"endTime":4011.01,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4011.28,"endTime":4013.62,"body":"Um, the other thing is,"},{"startTime":4011.28,"endTime":4013.62,"body":"we'll start with this."},{"startTime":4013.98,"endTime":4015.39,"body":"You get what you pay for ultimately."},{"startTime":4015.48,"endTime":4015.75,"body":"Yeah, of course."},{"startTime":4015.94,"endTime":4019.86,"body":"But, but given the situation where"},{"startTime":4015.94,"endTime":4019.86,"body":"you have your developers over there"},{"startTime":4019.89,"endTime":4023.73,"body":"and you have some team members"},{"startTime":4019.89,"endTime":4023.73,"body":"over here having a scrum master."},{"startTime":4024.015,"endTime":4027.345,"body":"Onshore just onshore doesn't work."},{"startTime":4027.35,"endTime":4027.745,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":4028.375,"endTime":4029.065,"body":"Effectively."},{"startTime":4029.065,"endTime":4029.425,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":4029.505,"endTime":4029.835,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4029.925,"endTime":4033.315,"body":"You'll sure you, you can limp through,"},{"startTime":4029.925,"endTime":4033.315,"body":"but it, it's not the best way to work."},{"startTime":4033.585,"endTime":4038.835,"body":"Having a scrum master offshore"},{"startTime":4033.585,"endTime":4038.835,"body":"and only one offshore, same thing."},{"startTime":4038.835,"endTime":4038.925,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":4039.165,"endTime":4039.465,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4040.245,"endTime":4044.715,"body":"Um, probably the best thing that can"},{"startTime":4040.245,"endTime":4044.715,"body":"come out of this is to have a scrum"},{"startTime":4044.715,"endTime":4049.905,"body":"master that you have already onshore"},{"startTime":4044.715,"endTime":4049.905,"body":"continue, and you have somebody who fills"},{"startTime":4049.905,"endTime":4055.485,"body":"the role of a scrum master offshore,"},{"startTime":4049.905,"endTime":4055.485,"body":"because that way there's somebody"},{"startTime":4055.485,"endTime":4060.045,"body":"that the developers can raise their"},{"startTime":4055.485,"endTime":4060.045,"body":"impairments to without having to wait"},{"startTime":4060.085,"endTime":4063.595,"body":"for a scrum to be spun up on this side."},{"startTime":4063.685,"endTime":4063.805,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":4064.05,"endTime":4067.495,"body":"You still need to synchronize"},{"startTime":4064.05,"endTime":4067.495,"body":"the two, the two scrum masters."},{"startTime":4067.555,"endTime":4070.675,"body":"The roles of two scrum masters"},{"startTime":4067.555,"endTime":4070.675,"body":"still have to be synchronized, but"},{"startTime":4070.675,"endTime":4072.145,"body":"you can do that more effectively."},{"startTime":4072.145,"endTime":4072.235,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":4072.475,"endTime":4075.266,"body":"Because now you're not at the"},{"startTime":4072.475,"endTime":4075.266,"body":"mercy of the time zones where."},{"startTime":4075.85,"endTime":4079.51,"body":"People aren't asked to stay at"},{"startTime":4075.85,"endTime":4079.51,"body":"nine o'clock at night their time."},{"startTime":4079.54,"endTime":4079.72,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4079.72,"endTime":4079.87,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4080.02,"endTime":4083.5,"body":"Which is first thing in the morning, hard"},{"startTime":4080.02,"endTime":4083.5,"body":"time or worse if you're west coast, right?"},{"startTime":4083.86,"endTime":4085.59,"body":"Um, worse or better?"},{"startTime":4085.7,"endTime":4086.05,"body":"Worse."},{"startTime":4086.32,"endTime":4086.77,"body":"It's way worse."},{"startTime":4086.94,"endTime":4088.44,"body":"It depends on where you"},{"startTime":4086.94,"endTime":4088.44,"body":"are, but it's way worse."},{"startTime":4088.445,"endTime":4088.61,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4088.68,"endTime":4088.83,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4088.83,"endTime":4092.91,"body":"So I, I think that model where you have"},{"startTime":4088.83,"endTime":4092.91,"body":"somebody, it could be anybody, it could"},{"startTime":4092.91,"endTime":4097.38,"body":"be a QA person, it could be a development"},{"startTime":4092.91,"endTime":4097.38,"body":"team member, but they act in that role."},{"startTime":4097.74,"endTime":4102.93,"body":"Um, now yes, if you've got a vendor"},{"startTime":4097.74,"endTime":4102.93,"body":"who, who's pedantic about it, sure."},{"startTime":4102.96,"endTime":4105.27,"body":"You know, they might charge a"},{"startTime":4102.96,"endTime":4105.27,"body":"few dollars more per hour for"},{"startTime":4105.27,"endTime":4109.01,"body":"that person, but the value you're"},{"startTime":4105.27,"endTime":4109.01,"body":"getting out of this is tremendous."},{"startTime":4109.47,"endTime":4111.9,"body":"So they're acting as a scrum"},{"startTime":4109.47,"endTime":4111.9,"body":"master of, they, you have a scrum"},{"startTime":4111.9,"endTime":4114.72,"body":"master over here, and the two of"},{"startTime":4111.9,"endTime":4114.72,"body":"'em synchronize at some point."},{"startTime":4114.72,"endTime":4118.81,"body":"That's convenient for them"},{"startTime":4114.72,"endTime":4118.81,"body":"during the day, but the dev team"},{"startTime":4118.81,"endTime":4120.04,"body":"members aren't waiting around."},{"startTime":4120.19,"endTime":4120.25,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4120.25,"endTime":4121.0,"body":"At either end."},{"startTime":4121.06,"endTime":4122.74,"body":"I think that's the best case scenario."},{"startTime":4123.04,"endTime":4124.93,"body":"So, so here, here's the."},{"startTime":4125.29,"endTime":4130.64,"body":"Here's what I am here, here, here's"},{"startTime":4125.29,"endTime":4130.64,"body":"what I've been telling my client."},{"startTime":4131.36,"endTime":4136.745,"body":"And, uh you, you can like give me"},{"startTime":4131.36,"endTime":4136.745,"body":"advice if this is good or not, right?"},{"startTime":4137.075,"endTime":4138.125,"body":"Here's what I've been telling my client."},{"startTime":4138.155,"endTime":4140.974,"body":"Cause they, because they've been"},{"startTime":4138.155,"endTime":4140.974,"body":"pressing me on this one, cuz again, it's"},{"startTime":4140.979,"endTime":4144.424,"body":"like, I, I have no idea what they're"},{"startTime":4140.979,"endTime":4144.424,"body":"paying offshore first scrum master,"},{"startTime":4144.424,"endTime":4147.394,"body":"but I'm assuming it's half right?"},{"startTime":4147.394,"endTime":4150.334,"body":"I'm assuming, I'm assuming the"},{"startTime":4147.394,"endTime":4150.334,"body":"proposed rate's half, maybe not half."},{"startTime":4150.334,"endTime":4151.804,"body":"Maybe it's like two thirds."},{"startTime":4152.074,"endTime":4156.864,"body":"Cuz like in, in recent history, I,"},{"startTime":4152.074,"endTime":4156.864,"body":"I remember when I was a, I remember"},{"startTime":4156.864,"endTime":4163.384,"body":"when I was a manager, the rate I would"},{"startTime":4156.864,"endTime":4163.384,"body":"pay out of India, oh no, it wasn't"},{"startTime":4163.384,"endTime":4166.744,"body":"India, it was Ukraine and Belarus."},{"startTime":4166.954,"endTime":4173.974,"body":"In my experience, the rate that I"},{"startTime":4166.954,"endTime":4173.974,"body":"would pay for a person in qa, this,"},{"startTime":4174.244,"endTime":4175.954,"body":"this, this was my experience was in qa."},{"startTime":4176.704,"endTime":4178.404,"body":"The rate I would pay for someone in qa."},{"startTime":4178.924,"endTime":4187.434,"body":"Was almost the same rate as I would pay as"},{"startTime":4178.924,"endTime":4187.434,"body":"like a, a entry level QA resource for, for"},{"startTime":4187.434,"endTime":4190.164,"body":"like a mid to senior level on their side."},{"startTime":4190.384,"endTime":4192.209,"body":", it really wasn't a huge savings."},{"startTime":4192.809,"endTime":4195.949,"body":"It wasn't a huge, I mean, to the"},{"startTime":4192.809,"endTime":4195.949,"body":"company, it was like, I don't"},{"startTime":4196.199,"endTime":4199.729,"body":"know, 25, 30% savings or whatever."},{"startTime":4200.029,"endTime":4203.149,"body":"And like, if you ask some other like"},{"startTime":4200.029,"endTime":4203.149,"body":"seasoned hydro coaches or any of the"},{"startTime":4203.149,"endTime":4206.809,"body":"trainers or whatever, they'd be like, bro,"},{"startTime":4203.149,"endTime":4206.809,"body":"you gonna pay that rate in communication"},{"startTime":4206.809,"endTime":4208.519,"body":"costs and coordination costs or whatever."},{"startTime":4208.524,"endTime":4210.919,"body":"Which, which is true, but like,"},{"startTime":4208.524,"endTime":4210.919,"body":"I'm, I'm trying to like, I'm"},{"startTime":4210.919,"endTime":4211.949,"body":"trying to get over that, that."},{"startTime":4212.749,"endTime":4216.279,"body":"I'm trying to get over that normal"},{"startTime":4212.749,"endTime":4216.279,"body":"point and just talk about I've just"},{"startTime":4216.279,"endTime":4223.409,"body":"decided that the, the, the, the flat"},{"startTime":4216.279,"endTime":4223.409,"body":"money, like numbers are all that"},{"startTime":4223.409,"endTime":4226.469,"body":"matters to my company at this point,"},{"startTime":4223.409,"endTime":4226.469,"body":"and I'm making this decision that, that,"},{"startTime":4226.474,"endTime":4227.79,"body":"that's, that's what I'm talking about."},{"startTime":4227.795,"endTime":4232.589,"body":"Like when, when, when I'm, when I'm going,"},{"startTime":4227.795,"endTime":4232.589,"body":"when I'm kind of like pushing forward"},{"startTime":4232.589,"endTime":4234.179,"body":"at all costs with, with this Right."},{"startTime":4234.179,"endTime":4235.769,"body":"Just, just the, just the money."},{"startTime":4235.769,"endTime":4237.749,"body":"I just the, the end of the day numbers."},{"startTime":4238.229,"endTime":4238.379,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4238.379,"endTime":4242.934,"body":"So I mean, certainly the, the"},{"startTime":4238.379,"endTime":4242.934,"body":"gap has narrowed quite a lot."},{"startTime":4242.994,"endTime":4243.294,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4243.384,"endTime":4243.654,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4243.659,"endTime":4247.764,"body":"And I'm finding that for roles"},{"startTime":4243.659,"endTime":4247.764,"body":"like Scrum Masters, the difference"},{"startTime":4247.764,"endTime":4250.104,"body":"is not very much at all anymore."},{"startTime":4250.224,"endTime":4250.314,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4250.314,"endTime":4251.934,"body":"And that, and that"},{"startTime":4250.314,"endTime":4251.934,"body":"there's a reason for that."},{"startTime":4252.174,"endTime":4254.934,"body":"So what used to happen a few"},{"startTime":4252.174,"endTime":4254.934,"body":"years ago is you had Scrum masters"},{"startTime":4254.934,"endTime":4256.764,"body":"here that were certified Yeah."},{"startTime":4257.094,"endTime":4259.584,"body":"Let's say, and Scrum masters"},{"startTime":4257.094,"endTime":4259.584,"body":"over there were simply developers"},{"startTime":4259.589,"endTime":4260.664,"body":"that grew into the role."},{"startTime":4260.669,"endTime":4260.854,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":4261.144,"endTime":4262.734,"body":"And they, they were not never trained."},{"startTime":4262.854,"endTime":4262.944,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4262.944,"endTime":4263.064,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4263.454,"endTime":4266.134,"body":"But now what you're finding is"},{"startTime":4263.454,"endTime":4266.134,"body":"everybody's got all the certifications"},{"startTime":4266.134,"endTime":4267.294,"body":"they need over there too."},{"startTime":4267.834,"endTime":4273.174,"body":"And you've got CSTs over there"},{"startTime":4267.834,"endTime":4273.174,"body":"certifying their people at a fraction"},{"startTime":4273.174,"endTime":4274.314,"body":"of what your I would pay here."},{"startTime":4274.319,"endTime":4274.524,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":4274.524,"endTime":4274.644,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4274.734,"endTime":4275.064,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4275.394,"endTime":4277.554,"body":"And then there's another little"},{"startTime":4275.394,"endTime":4277.554,"body":"symptom there too, which is"},{"startTime":4277.734,"endTime":4281.154,"body":"people over here are getting their"},{"startTime":4277.734,"endTime":4281.154,"body":"certifications from CSTs in India."},{"startTime":4281.374,"endTime":4281.724,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4282.414,"endTime":4283.614,"body":"But we won't go there right now."},{"startTime":4283.704,"endTime":4284.244,"body":"Oh man."},{"startTime":4284.424,"endTime":4285.144,"body":"Sign me up."},{"startTime":4285.684,"endTime":4288.624,"body":"It's like $200 as opposed to $900."},{"startTime":4288.654,"endTime":4289.824,"body":"I mean, it is quite compelling."},{"startTime":4289.974,"endTime":4290.124,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4290.154,"endTime":4295.274,"body":"But coming back to our point though, the,"},{"startTime":4290.154,"endTime":4295.274,"body":"the delta is so little right now that it"},{"startTime":4295.274,"endTime":4297.794,"body":"really isn't the deciding factor by far."},{"startTime":4297.854,"endTime":4298.004,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":4298.244,"endTime":4298.394,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":4298.574,"endTime":4305.204,"body":"Whereas those costs, in delays and just"},{"startTime":4298.574,"endTime":4305.204,"body":"general confusion and communication"},{"startTime":4305.204,"endTime":4310.154,"body":"delays, they outweigh the difference"},{"startTime":4305.204,"endTime":4310.154,"body":"in the two quarterly rates, let's say."},{"startTime":4310.544,"endTime":4313.784,"body":"Um, so I, I would certainly"},{"startTime":4310.544,"endTime":4313.784,"body":"encourage them to think through"},{"startTime":4313.784,"endTime":4317.174,"body":"this in that, in that way, and not"},{"startTime":4313.784,"endTime":4317.174,"body":"just look at the actual dollars."},{"startTime":4317.179,"endTime":4318.914,"body":"But even if they did, yeah,"},{"startTime":4317.179,"endTime":4318.914,"body":"as I say, they're not."},{"startTime":4319.769,"endTime":4320.819,"body":"They're not that far apart."},{"startTime":4320.909,"endTime":4321.359,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4321.449,"endTime":4325.629,"body":"I look, I, I think companies are real"},{"startTime":4321.449,"endTime":4325.629,"body":"bad like probably this is because they"},{"startTime":4325.629,"endTime":4330.819,"body":"have a QA background and it's like"},{"startTime":4325.629,"endTime":4330.819,"body":"companies are real bad at at, at placing"},{"startTime":4330.819,"endTime":4334.479,"body":"costs that are not like directly paid."},{"startTime":4335.219,"endTime":4335.89,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":4336.099,"endTime":4338.019,"body":"Like, I dealt with this"},{"startTime":4336.099,"endTime":4338.019,"body":"in QA all the time."},{"startTime":4338.019,"endTime":4341.999,"body":"I was like, you we don't, we don't,"},{"startTime":4338.019,"endTime":4341.999,"body":"when we make decisions, we do not."},{"startTime":4342.239,"endTime":4342.839,"body":"We do not."},{"startTime":4342.844,"endTime":4344.239,"body":"We, we do not."},{"startTime":4344.239,"endTime":4348.559,"body":"We never take in the cost of the risk."},{"startTime":4349.369,"endTime":4353.899,"body":"Never do we factor in the cost of the risk"},{"startTime":4349.369,"endTime":4353.899,"body":"in a decision, even in the methodologies."},{"startTime":4353.989,"endTime":4358.479,"body":"Like safe has the shortest,"},{"startTime":4353.989,"endTime":4358.479,"body":"shortest weight job for a shortest"},{"startTime":4358.479,"endTime":4359.709,"body":"weighted job first or whatever."},{"startTime":4359.714,"endTime":4361.269,"body":"Like yeah, I could be screwing that up."},{"startTime":4361.269,"endTime":4361.569,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4361.569,"endTime":4362.079,"body":"That's what it is."},{"startTime":4362.259,"endTime":4362.469,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4362.529,"endTime":4366.319,"body":"But like, that doesn't take risk into"},{"startTime":4362.529,"endTime":4366.319,"body":"the, it doesn't take like first to market."},{"startTime":4366.969,"endTime":4367.989,"body":"Or, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":4367.989,"endTime":4369.579,"body":"What if a competitor beats us to market?"},{"startTime":4369.579,"endTime":4370.809,"body":"It doesn't take that into account."},{"startTime":4370.809,"endTime":4373.349,"body":"It doesn't take what if I push"},{"startTime":4370.809,"endTime":4373.349,"body":"something and it comes back with"},{"startTime":4373.349,"endTime":4375.239,"body":"like 15 bugs that I gotta solve?"},{"startTime":4375.239,"endTime":4377.579,"body":"Like doesn't take risk"},{"startTime":4375.239,"endTime":4377.579,"body":"into account at all."},{"startTime":4377.789,"endTime":4384.089,"body":"Like, I think you would have to break"},{"startTime":4377.789,"endTime":4384.089,"body":"into like actuary mathematics to come up"},{"startTime":4384.089,"endTime":4387.599,"body":"with some kind of a, and like nobody's,"},{"startTime":4384.089,"endTime":4387.599,"body":"nobody's even like looking at it."},{"startTime":4387.719,"endTime":4387.869,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4387.869,"endTime":4388.619,"body":"You're absolutely right."},{"startTime":4388.619,"endTime":4390.359,"body":"So there, there's the"},{"startTime":4388.619,"endTime":4390.359,"body":"risk side of it, right?"},{"startTime":4390.359,"endTime":4393.809,"body":"And then there's also the opportunity cost"},{"startTime":4390.359,"endTime":4393.809,"body":"side of it, or making a decision Yeah."},{"startTime":4393.869,"endTime":4396.179,"body":"Has an impact on a"},{"startTime":4393.869,"endTime":4396.179,"body":"decision you didn't make."},{"startTime":4396.509,"endTime":4401.634,"body":"Um, but yeah, companies are notoriously"},{"startTime":4396.509,"endTime":4401.634,"body":"bad, I would say, at, uh these"},{"startTime":4401.634,"endTime":4403.644,"body":"kinds of indirect cost calculations."},{"startTime":4403.644,"endTime":4403.645,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4404.284,"endTime":4406.324,"body":", I like, I think there's"},{"startTime":4406.374,"endTime":4409.134,"body":"I, I, I, I, I, I think"},{"startTime":4406.374,"endTime":4409.134,"body":"there's something there, man."},{"startTime":4409.134,"endTime":4411.714,"body":"Like I, I don't know what it is,"},{"startTime":4409.134,"endTime":4411.714,"body":"but I think there's something there."},{"startTime":4412.644,"endTime":4416.314,"body":"You know, I, I, I think there's"},{"startTime":4412.644,"endTime":4416.314,"body":"something there where those costs"},{"startTime":4416.604,"endTime":4418.284,"body":"should be taken into account somehow."},{"startTime":4418.784,"endTime":4419.474,"body":"But I don't know."},{"startTime":4419.804,"endTime":4420.164,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":4420.404,"endTime":4422.414,"body":"Maybe that's a, maybe that's"},{"startTime":4420.404,"endTime":4422.414,"body":"a topic for the feature."},{"startTime":4423.074,"endTime":4427.034,"body":"That's a very complex topic and, uh"},{"startTime":4423.074,"endTime":4427.034,"body":"one in cost accounting that they really"},{"startTime":4427.034,"endTime":4430.694,"body":"haven't come to grips with, because"},{"startTime":4427.034,"endTime":4430.694,"body":"you can't, you can't do a straight line"},{"startTime":4430.694,"endTime":4432.134,"body":"calculation on a lot of that stuff."},{"startTime":4432.634,"endTime":4433.324,"body":"Offshore scr."},{"startTime":4433.329,"endTime":4438.234,"body":"So, so the offshore scrum master"},{"startTime":4433.329,"endTime":4438.234,"body":"conversation, , so basically the,"},{"startTime":4438.294,"endTime":4442.514,"body":"the, the recommendation here is you"},{"startTime":4438.294,"endTime":4442.514,"body":"have, if you're gonna have an offshore"},{"startTime":4442.514,"endTime":4444.974,"body":"scrum master or multiple, right?"},{"startTime":4445.554,"endTime":4449.174,"body":"They sync up with a counterpart"},{"startTime":4445.554,"endTime":4449.174,"body":"that's onshore daily."},{"startTime":4450.174,"endTime":4450.714,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4450.994,"endTime":4454.894,"body":"And, and the best way to sell it"},{"startTime":4450.994,"endTime":4454.894,"body":"might be to say not necessarily that"},{"startTime":4454.894,"endTime":4456.994,"body":"they hire a scrum master, right?"},{"startTime":4457.214,"endTime":4461.164,"body":"One of the team members plays"},{"startTime":4457.214,"endTime":4461.164,"body":"that role and they rotate, right?"},{"startTime":4461.164,"endTime":4463.954,"body":"So one sprint, this person does it"},{"startTime":4461.164,"endTime":4463.954,"body":"next sprint, another person does it."},{"startTime":4464.344,"endTime":4466.714,"body":"What that does is it, it makes"},{"startTime":4464.344,"endTime":4466.714,"body":"them cross-functional, it makes"},{"startTime":4466.714,"endTime":4469.684,"body":"them grow into that scrum master"},{"startTime":4466.714,"endTime":4469.684,"body":"role as well, if they want to."},{"startTime":4470.554,"endTime":4472.294,"body":"Um, but you should make"},{"startTime":4470.554,"endTime":4472.294,"body":"it optional, right?"},{"startTime":4472.294,"endTime":4474.634,"body":"Just say, do you want to"},{"startTime":4472.294,"endTime":4474.634,"body":"be a scrum master one day?"},{"startTime":4474.814,"endTime":4474.934,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4474.934,"endTime":4475.924,"body":"You know, here's your chance."},{"startTime":4475.924,"endTime":4476.194,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":4476.914,"endTime":4480.884,"body":"And they can be under the tutelage"},{"startTime":4476.914,"endTime":4480.884,"body":"of the person here who is a full"},{"startTime":4480.884,"endTime":4482.264,"body":"on scrum master, so to speak."},{"startTime":4482.384,"endTime":4482.594,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4482.744,"endTime":4484.634,"body":"Um, initially, and that'll be fine."},{"startTime":4485.134,"endTime":4485.424,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4485.724,"endTime":4486.264,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":4486.264,"endTime":4491.414,"body":"Like my, when I talk, when I talk"},{"startTime":4486.264,"endTime":4491.414,"body":"to my client, what I told them was,"},{"startTime":4491.444,"endTime":4495.889,"body":"they're like, well, what do you think"},{"startTime":4491.444,"endTime":4495.889,"body":"if we have a scrum master offshore out"},{"startTime":4495.919,"endTime":4498.679,"body":"India, the Ukraine or whatever, that"},{"startTime":4495.919,"endTime":4498.679,"body":"that actually sits with our teams."},{"startTime":4498.949,"endTime":4501.589,"body":"I was like, well, there, there"},{"startTime":4498.949,"endTime":4501.589,"body":"is a benefit of having a scrum"},{"startTime":4501.589,"endTime":4504.349,"body":"master who actually like,"},{"startTime":4501.589,"endTime":4504.349,"body":"physically is with your teams."},{"startTime":4504.349,"endTime":4507.199,"body":"Like is is in the same"},{"startTime":4504.349,"endTime":4507.199,"body":"workspace as your teams."},{"startTime":4507.499,"endTime":4509.659,"body":"There certainly is a"},{"startTime":4507.499,"endTime":4509.659,"body":"benefit for that, right."},{"startTime":4510.159,"endTime":4512.859,"body":"The, the, the, my trepidation."},{"startTime":4512.919,"endTime":4513.339,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":4513.399,"endTime":4514.359,"body":"I said trepidation."},{"startTime":4514.479,"endTime":4515.889,"body":"I almost never say that word either."},{"startTime":4516.079,"endTime":4519.099,"body":"Of recommending that is like I, I like."},{"startTime":4519.769,"endTime":4524.149,"body":"I don't know if that person's just"},{"startTime":4519.769,"endTime":4524.149,"body":"like a, a project manager that got"},{"startTime":4524.329,"endTime":4528.349,"body":"a certification and now is like"},{"startTime":4524.329,"endTime":4528.349,"body":"marketed by their consulting firm"},{"startTime":4528.349,"endTime":4529.459,"body":"as whatever, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":4529.464,"endTime":4530.719,"body":"Is like, oh, he's a scrum master."},{"startTime":4530.719,"endTime":4531.109,"body":"Totally."},{"startTime":4531.739,"endTime":4537.889,"body":"Um but I, I mean, like f putting that to"},{"startTime":4531.739,"endTime":4537.889,"body":"the side for a second um, my challenge"},{"startTime":4537.889,"endTime":4542.769,"body":"is like I would rather they use my"},{"startTime":4537.889,"endTime":4542.769,"body":"company's scrum master because at least"},{"startTime":4542.769,"endTime":4548.139,"body":"I know my company's scrum master is"},{"startTime":4542.769,"endTime":4548.139,"body":"like in, in line with the, the, the,"},{"startTime":4548.379,"endTime":4551.949,"body":"the principles of agility, you know?"},{"startTime":4552.449,"endTime":4552.749,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4552.754,"endTime":4556.579,"body":"But would you have that, that opportunity"},{"startTime":4552.754,"endTime":4556.579,"body":"offshore, that's the thing, right?"},{"startTime":4557.084,"endTime":4560.894,"body":"I don't like, I don't know"},{"startTime":4557.084,"endTime":4560.894,"body":"if, so they've asked me twice."},{"startTime":4560.924,"endTime":4561.194,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4561.194,"endTime":4563.654,"body":"And the fir, the first time I"},{"startTime":4561.194,"endTime":4563.654,"body":"gave the, I gave the first answer."},{"startTime":4563.984,"endTime":4566.724,"body":"The second time they asked me, I was"},{"startTime":4563.984,"endTime":4566.724,"body":"like, look, if if this is something you're"},{"startTime":4566.724,"endTime":4571.004,"body":"really dead set on, I was like, well then"},{"startTime":4566.724,"endTime":4571.004,"body":"what I recommend is cuz it, because we're"},{"startTime":4571.009,"endTime":4572.294,"body":"talking about spinning up a couple teams."},{"startTime":4572.534,"endTime":4574.284,"body":"It's not, we're not talking"},{"startTime":4572.534,"endTime":4574.284,"body":"about like one team."},{"startTime":4574.644,"endTime":4577.034,"body":"We're talking about like seven teams."},{"startTime":4577.634,"endTime":4577.904,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4578.354,"endTime":4582.794,"body":"So I was like, what I recommend is if"},{"startTime":4578.354,"endTime":4582.794,"body":"you're gonna go with a vendor, like"},{"startTime":4582.799,"endTime":4586.724,"body":"the vendor brings the scrum master"},{"startTime":4582.799,"endTime":4586.724,"body":"approach, vendor brings developers,"},{"startTime":4586.724,"endTime":4588.134,"body":"vendor, brings the scrum master approach."},{"startTime":4588.834,"endTime":4594.684,"body":"I was like, what I would recommend is"},{"startTime":4588.834,"endTime":4594.684,"body":"we have, inside the organization, we"},{"startTime":4594.744,"endTime":4597.384,"body":"hire a permanent employee, agile coach."},{"startTime":4597.849,"endTime":4599.679,"body":"Well, or scrum master, whatever, right."},{"startTime":4600.039,"endTime":4604.269,"body":"As a coach, scrum master, we hire 'em in"},{"startTime":4600.039,"endTime":4604.269,"body":"the organization and then they basically"},{"startTime":4604.269,"endTime":4608.199,"body":"become the resource manager over the"},{"startTime":4604.269,"endTime":4608.199,"body":"Scrum masters that are on the offshore"},{"startTime":4608.199,"endTime":4612.819,"body":"teams so that at a minimum they can make"},{"startTime":4608.199,"endTime":4612.819,"body":"sure that some kind of standard is being"},{"startTime":4612.819,"endTime":4614.879,"body":"observed be between all the Scrum masters."},{"startTime":4615.609,"endTime":4616.299,"body":"I couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":4616.299,"endTime":4619.599,"body":"I'm also glad you didn't say the word"},{"startTime":4616.299,"endTime":4619.599,"body":"master Scrum, master of the phrase."},{"startTime":4619.659,"endTime":4620.229,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":4620.229,"endTime":4621.039,"body":"Whatever title."},{"startTime":4621.039,"endTime":4625.449,"body":"Whatever title they want, whatever title"},{"startTime":4621.039,"endTime":4625.449,"body":"they want as Coach Works well, right?"},{"startTime":4625.479,"endTime":4626.469,"body":"In that case."},{"startTime":4626.499,"endTime":4627.009,"body":"Definitely."},{"startTime":4627.099,"endTime":4631.359,"body":"So, so there's consistent practices"},{"startTime":4627.099,"endTime":4631.359,"body":"being followed in different locations."},{"startTime":4631.359,"endTime":4632.559,"body":"That makes a lot of sense to me."},{"startTime":4633.059,"endTime":4633.929,"body":"Too much sense."},{"startTime":4634.499,"endTime":4636.999,"body":"We can't have that, that Well as a team."},{"startTime":4637.329,"endTime":4637.899,"body":"It does."},{"startTime":4637.899,"endTime":4638.439,"body":"It does."},{"startTime":4638.939,"endTime":4639.449,"body":"Oh man."},{"startTime":4640.139,"endTime":4640.589,"body":"Well,"},{"startTime":4641.089,"endTime":4642.199,"body":"you wanna call it a wrap?"},{"startTime":4642.559,"endTime":4643.219,"body":"I think so."},{"startTime":4643.249,"endTime":4645.169,"body":"I think this is a, this"},{"startTime":4643.249,"endTime":4645.169,"body":"is a good stopping point."},{"startTime":4645.189,"endTime":4645.679,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":4645.829,"endTime":4648.884,"body":"So let's stop here and we'll like"},{"startTime":4645.829,"endTime":4648.884,"body":"I have a bunch of stuff that I want"},{"startTime":4648.884,"endTime":4652.284,"body":"to, I wanna keep talking about, but"},{"startTime":4648.884,"endTime":4652.284,"body":"we have a bunch of future sessions."},{"startTime":4652.284,"endTime":4652.404,"body":"We do."},{"startTime":4652.404,"endTime":4653.044,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":4653.114,"endTime":4653.404,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4654.154,"endTime":4660.864,"body":"Also, I gotta think about who else I"},{"startTime":4654.154,"endTime":4660.864,"body":"want to invite to, to, to discuss with."},{"startTime":4660.924,"endTime":4661.554,"body":"I gotta think about it."},{"startTime":4661.634,"endTime":4662.714,"body":"So, all right, man."},{"startTime":4663.374,"endTime":4665.939,"body":"Well, This worked out"},{"startTime":4663.374,"endTime":4665.939,"body":"well, I think, let's see."},{"startTime":4665.994,"endTime":4666.684,"body":"Yeah, I think so."},{"startTime":4666.684,"endTime":4667.584,"body":"Except for that camera."},{"startTime":4667.589,"endTime":4668.694,"body":"I don't know about that camera."},{"startTime":4669.174,"endTime":4669.474,"body":"All right."}]}