{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.13,"body":"I have a problem with dates on roadmaps."},{"startTime":2.291,"endTime":4.128,"body":"You have an allergy to dates on roadmaps."},{"startTime":4.128,"endTime":7.393,"body":"Another way to say it is I'm violently"},{"startTime":4.128,"endTime":7.393,"body":"allergic to dates on roadmaps."},{"startTime":7.443,"endTime":11.403,"body":"I think anything is not an outcome"},{"startTime":7.443,"endTime":11.403,"body":"based roadmap is a Gantt chart or a"},{"startTime":11.403,"endTime":16.923,"body":"release plan or a project plan, or"},{"startTime":11.403,"endTime":16.923,"body":"a feature delivery plan or a feature"},{"startTime":16.928,"endTime":19.17,"body":"factory or keep going, keep going."},{"startTime":19.65,"endTime":21.12,"body":"I can't That was, that was, that was it."},{"startTime":21.125,"endTime":24.04,"body":"Yeah, I'm hoping by the end of this"},{"startTime":21.125,"endTime":24.04,"body":"podcast, anyone that listens to it will"},{"startTime":24.04,"endTime":28.435,"body":"understand any roadmap where they put"},{"startTime":24.04,"endTime":28.435,"body":"dates at the top; why I hate them so much."},{"startTime":28.915,"endTime":31.765,"body":"Hopefully they'll move closer to"},{"startTime":28.915,"endTime":31.765,"body":"my side by the end of the podcast."},{"startTime":31.765,"endTime":33.595,"body":"Well, there's your learning"},{"startTime":31.765,"endTime":33.595,"body":"objective, everybody."},{"startTime":33.655,"endTime":37.135,"body":"Let's see, at the end of the podcast,"},{"startTime":33.655,"endTime":37.135,"body":"if you've learned, there will be a test."},{"startTime":37.375,"endTime":38.155,"body":"No, just kidding."},{"startTime":38.269,"endTime":42.059,"body":"All right, so you don't like dates on"},{"startTime":38.269,"endTime":42.059,"body":"a roadmap, and let's just start there."},{"startTime":42.279,"endTime":42.499,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":42.939,"endTime":44.679,"body":"Why do you not like dates on a roadmap?"},{"startTime":44.679,"endTime":48.039,"body":"Because everybody wants to"},{"startTime":44.679,"endTime":48.039,"body":"put dates on roadmaps, right?"},{"startTime":48.039,"endTime":49.569,"body":"So they know when they're getting stuff."},{"startTime":49.569,"endTime":52.614,"body":"Listen, everybody wants to sit"},{"startTime":49.569,"endTime":52.614,"body":"around in their pajamas all day."},{"startTime":52.644,"endTime":52.974,"body":"They do."},{"startTime":52.974,"endTime":56.334,"body":"And not put pants on, but everybody"},{"startTime":52.974,"endTime":56.334,"body":"doesn't get what everybody wants."},{"startTime":56.334,"endTime":57.684,"body":"Today is no pants day."},{"startTime":57.849,"endTime":58.989,"body":"is it No pants Friday?"},{"startTime":59.109,"endTime":59.649,"body":"No pants?"},{"startTime":59.649,"endTime":59.859,"body":"Friday?"},{"startTime":59.889,"endTime":60.999,"body":"Wait isn't every day?"},{"startTime":61.004,"endTime":61.659,"body":"No pants day?"},{"startTime":61.659,"endTime":63.729,"body":"If you just decide only if"},{"startTime":61.659,"endTime":63.729,"body":"you're working from home."},{"startTime":64.059,"endTime":64.479,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":64.479,"endTime":71.974,"body":"Well, listen, I despise non outcome-based"},{"startTime":64.479,"endTime":71.974,"body":"roadmaps because, they're not roadmaps"},{"startTime":72.024,"endTime":75.744,"body":". There are menus handed to you by"},{"startTime":72.024,"endTime":75.744,"body":"somebody else and says, I want that."},{"startTime":76.419,"endTime":78.309,"body":"And then you basically"},{"startTime":76.419,"endTime":78.309,"body":"don't get to question it."},{"startTime":78.377,"endTime":82.455,"body":"so they're like, a horizontal dart"},{"startTime":78.377,"endTime":82.455,"body":"board that you're trying to hit a number"},{"startTime":82.455,"endTime":84.195,"body":"on with your eyes closed, basically."},{"startTime":84.295,"endTime":89.845,"body":"You are being dictated somebody else's"},{"startTime":84.295,"endTime":89.845,"body":"vision of when things should be done."},{"startTime":90.055,"endTime":92.974,"body":"And, and you know, I, I think there's"},{"startTime":90.055,"endTime":92.974,"body":"a lot that goes into it, right?"},{"startTime":92.974,"endTime":96.784,"body":"People that are doing this aren't"},{"startTime":92.974,"endTime":96.784,"body":"doing it just to stick it to the team."},{"startTime":97.344,"endTime":97.884,"body":"Some might."},{"startTime":97.884,"endTime":102.664,"body":"But for the most part, people are doing"},{"startTime":97.884,"endTime":102.664,"body":"that because, they want to hit a date so"},{"startTime":102.664,"endTime":107.307,"body":"they can get their bonus because that's"},{"startTime":102.664,"endTime":107.307,"body":"how the organization is incenting them."},{"startTime":107.362,"endTime":110.302,"body":"So that's one reason why you"},{"startTime":107.362,"endTime":110.302,"body":"might see dates on a roadmap."},{"startTime":110.332,"endTime":114.172,"body":"Well, that's, I mean, that is great"},{"startTime":110.332,"endTime":114.172,"body":"from the perspective of, optimizing"},{"startTime":114.172,"endTime":116.812,"body":"for, one individual to get paid."},{"startTime":117.152,"endTime":119.822,"body":"As opposed to the entire"},{"startTime":117.152,"endTime":119.822,"body":"organization to be successful."},{"startTime":119.892,"endTime":123.632,"body":"If you're in that camp and"},{"startTime":119.892,"endTime":123.632,"body":"just want a payday, Thanks"},{"startTime":123.632,"endTime":124.682,"body":"for listening to the podcast."},{"startTime":124.802,"endTime":125.762,"body":"Please subscribe."},{"startTime":125.832,"endTime":127.152,"body":"We appreciate you being here."},{"startTime":127.202,"endTime":128.342,"body":"I'll send you my address."},{"startTime":128.342,"endTime":129.422,"body":"You can send a check in the mail."},{"startTime":129.624,"endTime":131.604,"body":"so you get nothing."},{"startTime":131.904,"endTime":132.924,"body":"You lose."},{"startTime":133.344,"endTime":134.454,"body":"Good day, sir."},{"startTime":134.523,"endTime":135.003,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":135.008,"endTime":135.433,"body":"Perfect."},{"startTime":136.023,"endTime":137.073,"body":"So that's one reason, right?"},{"startTime":137.543,"endTime":141.753,"body":"Another reason might be that"},{"startTime":137.543,"endTime":141.753,"body":"those people that use dates"},{"startTime":141.753,"endTime":144.158,"body":"on roadmaps, well guess what?"},{"startTime":144.158,"endTime":147.638,"body":"That's how they grew up"},{"startTime":144.158,"endTime":147.638,"body":"to be where they are."},{"startTime":147.998,"endTime":150.818,"body":"They don't know any other way."},{"startTime":150.908,"endTime":151.778,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":152.108,"endTime":157.248,"body":"They're not open to any other way"},{"startTime":152.108,"endTime":157.248,"body":"except I'm gonna put a line and I'm"},{"startTime":157.248,"endTime":160.158,"body":"gonna put a dot on it and go hit that."},{"startTime":160.518,"endTime":160.638,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":160.638,"endTime":162.228,"body":"That's your milestone, right?"},{"startTime":162.718,"endTime":166.468,"body":"When we get through the rest of this"},{"startTime":162.718,"endTime":166.468,"body":"podcast, that is probably the one that"},{"startTime":166.468,"endTime":170.598,"body":"I'm gonna empathize the most with, in"},{"startTime":166.468,"endTime":170.598,"body":"terms of someone that is like moving the"},{"startTime":170.598,"endTime":174.968,"body":"bricks, from one location to another,"},{"startTime":170.598,"endTime":174.968,"body":"brick by brick by hand carrying it."},{"startTime":174.978,"endTime":178.368,"body":"Struggling all day and spending the"},{"startTime":174.978,"endTime":178.368,"body":"whole day when there's a forklift,"},{"startTime":178.368,"endTime":179.988,"body":"like parked 10 feet from them."},{"startTime":180.148,"endTime":180.958,"body":"why would you do that?"},{"startTime":180.988,"endTime":181.108,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":181.108,"endTime":181.588,"body":"Why would you?"},{"startTime":181.678,"endTime":182.938,"body":"Because it's what I always did."},{"startTime":182.938,"endTime":185.428,"body":"Like I, I like they, I have the"},{"startTime":182.938,"endTime":185.428,"body":"most empathy for those people"},{"startTime":185.428,"endTime":187.018,"body":"that are just so stuck in there."},{"startTime":187.018,"endTime":189.658,"body":"Like they, the end of Shawshank"},{"startTime":187.018,"endTime":189.658,"body":"Redemption where the guy gets outta"},{"startTime":189.658,"endTime":193.238,"body":"prison and he just can't live, in the"},{"startTime":189.658,"endTime":193.238,"body":"new world where everything's faster."},{"startTime":193.238,"endTime":197.268,"body":"I have a lot of empathy for that we'll,"},{"startTime":193.238,"endTime":197.268,"body":"we'll get to that point maybe I might cut"},{"startTime":197.268,"endTime":199.248,"body":"all this real, real cynical view Yeah."},{"startTime":199.488,"endTime":200.238,"body":"Outta the podcast."},{"startTime":200.238,"endTime":201.708,"body":"But also I might leave it, leave it in"},{"startTime":201.758,"endTime":202.928,"body":"you want me to pull up some examples?"},{"startTime":202.928,"endTime":203.368,"body":"You wanna zip through it?"},{"startTime":203.648,"endTime":203.859,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":204.068,"endTime":205.508,"body":"I think I should pull up some examples."},{"startTime":205.538,"endTime":206.318,"body":"Let's, let's do that."},{"startTime":206.708,"endTime":206.948,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":207.278,"endTime":209.048,"body":"Yeah, so let's look at"},{"startTime":207.278,"endTime":209.048,"body":"this one for a second."},{"startTime":209.048,"endTime":211.268,"body":"In the screen right now,"},{"startTime":209.048,"endTime":211.268,"body":"you've got team A and team B."},{"startTime":211.268,"endTime":212.438,"body":"So you have two teams in here."},{"startTime":212.738,"endTime":215.278,"body":"And you've got, now, next, later, right?"},{"startTime":215.278,"endTime":218.788,"body":"Assuming everything that's in the"},{"startTime":215.278,"endTime":218.788,"body":"now category is being worked on now"},{"startTime":218.938,"endTime":221.368,"body":"by your team, makes sense to me?"},{"startTime":221.428,"endTime":222.088,"body":"It does make sense."},{"startTime":222.088,"endTime":225.228,"body":"It says now it makes so much"},{"startTime":222.088,"endTime":225.228,"body":"sense, and you have outcome a one,"},{"startTime":225.228,"endTime":229.458,"body":"outcome a two for team A, outcome"},{"startTime":225.228,"endTime":229.458,"body":"A three, outcome A four for Team B."},{"startTime":229.768,"endTime":233.158,"body":"These would be as measured"},{"startTime":229.768,"endTime":233.158,"body":"by, they'd be, metric based."},{"startTime":233.158,"endTime":236.678,"body":"So, decrease churn by 3%."},{"startTime":236.708,"endTime":239.258,"body":"These would be some kind"},{"startTime":236.708,"endTime":239.258,"body":"of measured outcome."},{"startTime":239.833,"endTime":241.003,"body":"Being targeted by this team."},{"startTime":241.003,"endTime":243.973,"body":"And then everything this team takes"},{"startTime":241.003,"endTime":243.973,"body":"on is in pursuit of these outcomes."},{"startTime":244.093,"endTime":248.443,"body":"So if you are using any ALM tool,"},{"startTime":244.093,"endTime":248.443,"body":"could be anyone, could be Jira, but if"},{"startTime":248.443,"endTime":252.143,"body":"you're using one, this would be like"},{"startTime":248.443,"endTime":252.143,"body":"your epic level or maybe above that."},{"startTime":252.143,"endTime":256.713,"body":"But this would be at least your epic"},{"startTime":252.143,"endTime":256.713,"body":"level to say, Hey team A is engaged"},{"startTime":256.713,"endTime":262.043,"body":"in, outcome A one, reduce churn by 2%."},{"startTime":262.643,"endTime":262.883,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":262.913,"endTime":264.443,"body":"It should be measurable, right?"},{"startTime":264.443,"endTime":264.453,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":264.533,"endTime":267.593,"body":"It could be KPIs, it could"},{"startTime":264.533,"endTime":267.593,"body":"be they fit nicely here."},{"startTime":267.623,"endTime":267.863,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":268.283,"endTime":268.553,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":268.943,"endTime":269.333,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":269.703,"endTime":273.543,"body":"So in, in this example, my"},{"startTime":269.703,"endTime":273.543,"body":"leadership has given a goal."},{"startTime":274.048,"endTime":279.888,"body":"A goal backed up by, a metric and has"},{"startTime":274.048,"endTime":279.888,"body":"put the team on it until the task is"},{"startTime":279.888,"endTime":284.748,"body":"accomplished and we're through it, and"},{"startTime":279.888,"endTime":284.748,"body":"then the team can pivot to another top"},{"startTime":284.748,"endTime":288.128,"body":"level business priority, whatever the"},{"startTime":284.748,"endTime":288.128,"body":"most important business priority is."},{"startTime":288.758,"endTime":290.648,"body":"The team can pivot to it at the time."},{"startTime":290.798,"endTime":291.038,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":291.098,"endTime":291.278,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":291.278,"endTime":295.118,"body":"Most important at the time, which is"},{"startTime":291.278,"endTime":295.118,"body":"the, the next or later, I mean directly,"},{"startTime":295.118,"endTime":298.718,"body":"or if something comes up that it,"},{"startTime":295.118,"endTime":298.718,"body":"that everyone agrees is more important"},{"startTime":298.928,"endTime":300.508,"body":"than reducing churn in this example."},{"startTime":300.678,"endTime":301.028,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":301.028,"endTime":305.108,"body":"We can just stop reducing churn"},{"startTime":301.028,"endTime":305.108,"body":"and call whatever we have done"},{"startTime":305.288,"endTime":308.288,"body":"enough and move off to the next"},{"startTime":305.288,"endTime":308.288,"body":"thing is if we all decide that."},{"startTime":308.463,"endTime":312.153,"body":"Whatever metric we've come to, we're"},{"startTime":308.463,"endTime":312.153,"body":"done enough for now, and we will"},{"startTime":312.153,"endTime":316.343,"body":"revisit it later if we don't like oh,"},{"startTime":312.153,"endTime":316.343,"body":"we we're shooting for 10%, we got to 8%."},{"startTime":316.913,"endTime":318.173,"body":"We have these other features."},{"startTime":318.173,"endTime":319.973,"body":"There were other things we"},{"startTime":318.173,"endTime":319.973,"body":"need to implement that we think"},{"startTime":319.973,"endTime":320.803,"body":"are probably more important."},{"startTime":321.928,"endTime":323.698,"body":"Leadership makes a call"},{"startTime":321.928,"endTime":323.698,"body":"product, makes call."},{"startTime":323.698,"endTime":323.968,"body":"Boom."},{"startTime":323.968,"endTime":324.898,"body":"We we cut over."},{"startTime":325.168,"endTime":325.348,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":325.348,"endTime":326.698,"body":"And we may never get back to it."},{"startTime":326.818,"endTime":327.028,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":327.033,"endTime":327.458,"body":"It depends, right?"},{"startTime":327.458,"endTime":328.228,"body":"Sure, sure."},{"startTime":328.288,"endTime":328.588,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":328.918,"endTime":329.938,"body":"Good Enough's, good enough."},{"startTime":329.988,"endTime":330.738,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":330.776,"endTime":333.696,"body":"let's pivot over here and see"},{"startTime":330.776,"endTime":333.696,"body":"what a nonsense based roadmap,"},{"startTime":333.726,"endTime":334.686,"body":"oh, did I say nonsense?"},{"startTime":334.816,"endTime":338.446,"body":"I meant, project based or feature"},{"startTime":334.816,"endTime":338.446,"body":"based or time based or output based."},{"startTime":338.546,"endTime":338.696,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":338.696,"endTime":339.236,"body":"output based."},{"startTime":339.342,"endTime":340.122,"body":"Go over here."},{"startTime":340.306,"endTime":341.476,"body":"I'm just gonna type in a roadmap."},{"startTime":341.665,"endTime":341.885,"body":"Huh?"},{"startTime":342.675,"endTime":343.405,"body":"What do you know?"},{"startTime":343.549,"endTime":345.229,"body":"So this is the first result that comes up."},{"startTime":345.229,"endTime":346.999,"body":"Actually, I think this is the"},{"startTime":345.229,"endTime":346.999,"body":"second result that comes up."},{"startTime":347.179,"endTime":350.909,"body":"So in the second result that comes up, you"},{"startTime":347.179,"endTime":350.909,"body":"have I don't know, looks like milestones."},{"startTime":351.069,"endTime":353.499,"body":"The milestones are across from"},{"startTime":351.069,"endTime":353.499,"body":"Are they those milestones?"},{"startTime":353.504,"endTime":354.279,"body":"Are these milestones?"},{"startTime":354.284,"endTime":354.379,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":354.384,"endTime":354.579,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":354.579,"endTime":354.909,"body":"Look at them."},{"startTime":354.909,"endTime":356.169,"body":"iOS, alanche and Android."},{"startTime":356.169,"endTime":356.379,"body":"Yeah, mobile."},{"startTime":356.384,"endTime":356.579,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":356.579,"endTime":356.859,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":357.039,"endTime":357.999,"body":"Those are milestones."},{"startTime":358.004,"endTime":361.819,"body":"And then those, these ones on, down"},{"startTime":358.004,"endTime":361.819,"body":"the side here, they're, I dunno"},{"startTime":361.819,"endTime":364.979,"body":"what they're large categories of,"},{"startTime":361.819,"endTime":364.979,"body":"Groupings like web floor, they"},{"startTime":364.979,"endTime":367.429,"body":"look like departments or some kind."},{"startTime":367.729,"endTime":372.769,"body":"Anyway, the point here is I've, I've"},{"startTime":367.729,"endTime":372.769,"body":"picked things, Hey, in, in 2020 quarter"},{"startTime":372.769,"endTime":376.339,"body":"one, that tells you how date this is in"},{"startTime":372.769,"endTime":376.339,"body":"2020 quarter one, we're gonna develop"},{"startTime":376.339,"endTime":380.379,"body":"an Android app and it's gonna finish in"},{"startTime":376.339,"endTime":380.379,"body":"2020, quarter two for my mobile team and"},{"startTime":380.439,"endTime":385.449,"body":"for the help desk team in 2020, quarter"},{"startTime":380.439,"endTime":385.449,"body":"two, they're gonna update navigation"},{"startTime":385.532,"endTime":389.762,"body":"regardless if the help desk team is"},{"startTime":385.532,"endTime":389.762,"body":"on fire and all the employees quit."},{"startTime":390.152,"endTime":391.172,"body":"We are committing."},{"startTime":392.072,"endTime":396.182,"body":"I'm assuming this 2020 product strategy"},{"startTime":392.072,"endTime":396.182,"body":"is created somewhere near the end of"},{"startTime":396.272,"endTime":402.342,"body":"2019 let's pick November, 2019 let's say"},{"startTime":396.272,"endTime":402.342,"body":"quarter two's about to begin in March."},{"startTime":402.462,"endTime":405.442,"body":"I know quarter two starts"},{"startTime":402.462,"endTime":405.442,"body":"technically in April, but, November."},{"startTime":405.747,"endTime":408.597,"body":"We're gonna say in four-ish months,"},{"startTime":405.747,"endTime":408.597,"body":"regardless of what the team looks"},{"startTime":408.597,"endTime":413.041,"body":"like and what they're doing, they're"},{"startTime":408.597,"endTime":413.041,"body":"gonna update navigation for the"},{"startTime":413.046,"endTime":414.601,"body":"entire, almost the entire quarter."},{"startTime":414.606,"endTime":416.281,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":416.431,"endTime":418.641,"body":"And, and they're gonna"},{"startTime":416.431,"endTime":418.641,"body":"start on a given date."},{"startTime":419.116,"endTime":421.276,"body":"And they're gonna finish"},{"startTime":419.116,"endTime":421.276,"body":"finish on a given date."},{"startTime":421.306,"endTime":422.266,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":422.266,"endTime":424.186,"body":"That has been trust upon them."},{"startTime":424.396,"endTime":426.196,"body":"They didn't come up with these"},{"startTime":424.396,"endTime":426.196,"body":"and, and look, I've got lots"},{"startTime":426.196,"endTime":427.896,"body":"of stuff, for each of my teams"},{"startTime":428.166,"endTime":432.276,"body":"to make sure Om, at Brian and Om's"},{"startTime":428.166,"endTime":432.276,"body":"old software development company."},{"startTime":432.306,"endTime":432.396,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":432.666,"endTime":434.756,"body":"To make sure that, no"},{"startTime":432.666,"endTime":434.756,"body":"one's taken advantage of."},{"startTime":434.756,"endTime":437.246,"body":"Brian and Om in Brian and Om's"},{"startTime":434.756,"endTime":437.246,"body":"software development company."},{"startTime":437.246,"endTime":441.956,"body":"No one's working 39 and a half hours"},{"startTime":437.246,"endTime":441.956,"body":"when they should be working at least 40."},{"startTime":442.006,"endTime":443.586,"body":"At least at a minimum."},{"startTime":443.686,"endTime":444.506,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":444.506,"endTime":447.476,"body":"So we just gave an example of"},{"startTime":444.506,"endTime":447.476,"body":"an outcome-based roadmap and"},{"startTime":447.476,"endTime":449.456,"body":"a not outcome-based roadmap."},{"startTime":449.516,"endTime":451.886,"body":"And quite honestly was like what"},{"startTime":449.516,"endTime":451.886,"body":"I showed on the screen just now."},{"startTime":452.017,"endTime":457.027,"body":"Regardless if you're a feature based"},{"startTime":452.017,"endTime":457.027,"body":"or release plan, or you do a Gantt"},{"startTime":457.032,"endTime":458.287,"body":"chart it really doesn't matter."},{"startTime":458.437,"endTime":461.017,"body":"All those style roadmaps, they"},{"startTime":458.437,"endTime":461.017,"body":"all pretty much look the same."},{"startTime":461.077,"endTime":464.572,"body":"Let's go into our, section of this"},{"startTime":461.077,"endTime":464.572,"body":"podcast where we do, a little,"},{"startTime":464.692,"endTime":465.862,"body":"a little back and forth debate."},{"startTime":465.867,"endTime":467.162,"body":"Back, back and forth is good."},{"startTime":467.362,"endTime":468.962,"body":"It's in the spirit of our Arguing agile."},{"startTime":468.962,"endTime":473.797,"body":"Let's, Let me start, to kick this off,"},{"startTime":468.962,"endTime":473.797,"body":"by talking about, why I think you should"},{"startTime":473.797,"endTime":479.127,"body":"only ever do outcome-based roadmaps,"},{"startTime":473.797,"endTime":479.127,"body":"look, point, point number one, is the"},{"startTime":479.157,"endTime":485.897,"body":"outcome-based roadmaps over the non-com"},{"startTime":479.157,"endTime":485.897,"body":"based roadmaps they 100% focus the"},{"startTime":485.897,"endTime":490.487,"body":"business and the teams that work in"},{"startTime":485.897,"endTime":490.487,"body":"that business on what matters the most."},{"startTime":490.667,"endTime":495.227,"body":"They focus the teams on what is"},{"startTime":490.667,"endTime":495.227,"body":"most valuable, the number one"},{"startTime":495.232,"endTime":498.647,"body":"priority, the number one focus"},{"startTime":495.232,"endTime":498.647,"body":"for the business and nothing else."},{"startTime":499.127,"endTime":501.917,"body":"So that would be the stuff that's in"},{"startTime":499.127,"endTime":501.917,"body":"the now column, presumably, right?"},{"startTime":501.922,"endTime":502.097,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":502.327,"endTime":505.277,"body":"But the problem with that is"},{"startTime":502.327,"endTime":505.277,"body":"I'm taking the other side here."},{"startTime":505.277,"endTime":505.367,"body":"Good."},{"startTime":505.417,"endTime":507.187,"body":"those roadmaps lack clarity."},{"startTime":507.192,"endTime":509.707,"body":"I don't see any dates, so"},{"startTime":507.192,"endTime":509.707,"body":"there's no predictability."},{"startTime":509.712,"endTime":511.267,"body":"How are we churning through the work?"},{"startTime":511.612,"endTime":512.452,"body":"I have no idea."},{"startTime":512.632,"endTime":514.972,"body":"It just says now, now I understand."},{"startTime":515.002,"endTime":516.622,"body":"It's now, how long is the now?"},{"startTime":516.952,"endTime":519.202,"body":"When you say next, when does that begin?"},{"startTime":519.232,"endTime":522.442,"body":"When does that end and later,"},{"startTime":519.232,"endTime":522.442,"body":"will you ever get to my stuff"},{"startTime":522.442,"endTime":523.702,"body":"when it's in the later column?"},{"startTime":523.707,"endTime":527.307,"body":"What, what is well first of all have"},{"startTime":523.707,"endTime":527.307,"body":"we had a discussion if your stuff is"},{"startTime":527.312,"endTime":529.047,"body":"more valuable than what's in the now?"},{"startTime":529.257,"endTime":531.787,"body":"Because as a product manager, I have."},{"startTime":532.327,"endTime":537.997,"body":"And I have qualitative as well as"},{"startTime":532.327,"endTime":537.997,"body":"quantitative data, but also the stuff"},{"startTime":537.997,"endTime":541.327,"body":"that's in the now column ties directly"},{"startTime":537.997,"endTime":541.327,"body":"into the strategies for the business."},{"startTime":541.567,"endTime":544.287,"body":"So yes, there may be"},{"startTime":541.567,"endTime":544.287,"body":"stakeholder management involved."},{"startTime":544.407,"endTime":544.617,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":544.622,"endTime":547.797,"body":"I understand what you're saying is"},{"startTime":544.622,"endTime":547.797,"body":"like there are stakeholders, they have"},{"startTime":547.802,"endTime":550.122,"body":"their own items and they have their"},{"startTime":547.802,"endTime":550.122,"body":"own timelines and they have their"},{"startTime":550.122,"endTime":557.232,"body":"own desires, however, Running a good"},{"startTime":550.122,"endTime":557.232,"body":"business is clearing all that fog out"},{"startTime":557.232,"endTime":559.692,"body":"and say, this is our number one priority."},{"startTime":560.142,"endTime":560.472,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":560.472,"endTime":562.302,"body":"This is our, sorry, I just finished."},{"startTime":562.307,"endTime":562.752,"body":"Good to great."},{"startTime":562.752,"endTime":563.712,"body":"So like in good to great."},{"startTime":563.717,"endTime":565.212,"body":"He's like, you have your hedgehog concept."},{"startTime":565.452,"endTime":570.552,"body":"This is our hedgehog concept, and all the"},{"startTime":565.452,"endTime":570.552,"body":"rest of this stuff isn't important now."},{"startTime":570.552,"endTime":572.772,"body":"Now I'm not, I'm not saying"},{"startTime":570.552,"endTime":572.772,"body":"don't tell stakeholders that"},{"startTime":572.772,"endTime":573.702,"body":"their stuff is important."},{"startTime":573.702,"endTime":574.362,"body":"Do not say that."},{"startTime":574.367,"endTime":575.742,"body":"I'm not saying that on the podcast."},{"startTime":576.792,"endTime":579.432,"body":"Yeah, but what would the PMO"},{"startTime":576.792,"endTime":579.432,"body":"do without their GA charts?"},{"startTime":579.492,"endTime":582.232,"body":"Uh, not make a bunch of"},{"startTime":579.492,"endTime":582.232,"body":"money th that's true."},{"startTime":582.952,"endTime":583.612,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":583.612,"endTime":584.842,"body":"But they want predictability."},{"startTime":584.847,"endTime":588.262,"body":"Brian, how are you gonna assure them"},{"startTime":584.847,"endTime":588.262,"body":"that this will be done by August?"},{"startTime":588.502,"endTime":589.102,"body":"I will."},{"startTime":589.102,"endTime":594.052,"body":"30th, I will assure them predictability by"},{"startTime":589.102,"endTime":594.052,"body":"making sure I'm predicting that they will"},{"startTime":594.057,"endTime":597.712,"body":"still have a job because we're focusing"},{"startTime":594.057,"endTime":597.712,"body":"on the number one thing that matters,"},{"startTime":597.862,"endTime":600.172,"body":"like predictability, like predictability."},{"startTime":600.737,"endTime":603.347,"body":"I guess I'm questioning what"},{"startTime":600.737,"endTime":603.347,"body":"predictability even means at this"},{"startTime":603.347,"endTime":608.777,"body":"point because we are staying on the"},{"startTime":603.347,"endTime":608.777,"body":"top priority until we achieve the"},{"startTime":608.777,"endTime":610.577,"body":"results for the business that we want."},{"startTime":611.087,"endTime":614.227,"body":"So like, I think about a sales team,"},{"startTime":611.087,"endTime":614.227,"body":"get out there and sell the product"},{"startTime":614.707,"endTime":617.987,"body":"until we get 10 million in ARR."},{"startTime":618.512,"endTime":623.372,"body":"Get out there and sell the product until"},{"startTime":618.512,"endTime":623.372,"body":"we get X percentage of new customers,"},{"startTime":623.612,"endTime":625.472,"body":"until we sell 10 new accounts or whatever."},{"startTime":625.832,"endTime":630.617,"body":"Like at what point are you gonna be"},{"startTime":625.832,"endTime":630.617,"body":"like, At, at, at what day are you"},{"startTime":630.617,"endTime":631.817,"body":"going to sell those 10 accounts?"},{"startTime":631.877,"endTime":633.687,"body":"Like you would never do"},{"startTime":631.877,"endTime":633.687,"body":"that to a sales team, right?"},{"startTime":633.797,"endTime":634.007,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":634.127,"endTime":637.697,"body":"So all I'm lobbying for here is why are"},{"startTime":634.127,"endTime":637.697,"body":"you ever gonna do that to a product team?"},{"startTime":637.907,"endTime":639.377,"body":"They're working on the top priority."},{"startTime":639.467,"endTime":643.557,"body":"Top priority is let's say for example,"},{"startTime":639.467,"endTime":643.557,"body":"the churn for the company is 2%, right?"},{"startTime":643.557,"endTime":644.397,"body":"Maybe it's a big company."},{"startTime":645.537,"endTime":647.287,"body":"Churn is 2% cut that in half."},{"startTime":648.142,"endTime":652.012,"body":"Okay, well, I have to analyze why we"},{"startTime":648.142,"endTime":652.012,"body":"have churn, why customers quit, what"},{"startTime":652.012,"endTime":653.392,"body":"stage do they quit, stuff like that."},{"startTime":653.397,"endTime":657.222,"body":"So if your app isn't built with stats,"},{"startTime":653.397,"endTime":657.222,"body":"I've gotta build some stats into it."},{"startTime":657.222,"endTime":659.232,"body":"First you need the telemetry."},{"startTime":659.232,"endTime":659.832,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":659.832,"endTime":660.612,"body":"That's the first."},{"startTime":660.612,"endTime":663.392,"body":"And, and that kind of work,"},{"startTime":660.612,"endTime":663.392,"body":"that is not sexy work at all."},{"startTime":663.492,"endTime":664.302,"body":"No, it's not."},{"startTime":664.332,"endTime":664.542,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":664.542,"endTime":666.222,"body":"That's retrofitting our app with stats."},{"startTime":666.282,"endTime":668.772,"body":"Yeah and then once I do that,"},{"startTime":666.282,"endTime":668.772,"body":"I have to figure out what"},{"startTime":668.772,"endTime":669.972,"body":"features are most important."},{"startTime":670.022,"endTime":673.832,"body":"So the problem with the, now that I see"},{"startTime":670.022,"endTime":673.832,"body":"on from the contrarian standpoint mm-hmm."},{"startTime":674.072,"endTime":677.472,"body":"Is who, who's deciding"},{"startTime":674.072,"endTime":677.472,"body":"what the top priority is."},{"startTime":677.532,"endTime":680.662,"body":"Uh you've got five execs and"},{"startTime":677.532,"endTime":680.662,"body":"there are seven top priorities."},{"startTime":680.902,"endTime":681.112,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":681.117,"endTime":682.462,"body":"Work on 'em all at the same time."},{"startTime":682.582,"endTime":682.792,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":683.062,"endTime":687.032,"body":"Easy product managers are,"},{"startTime":683.062,"endTime":687.032,"body":"they're, they're the person in"},{"startTime":687.032,"endTime":688.052,"body":"the business that's accountable."},{"startTime":688.052,"endTime":690.292,"body":"And if you, if you're in a business"},{"startTime":688.052,"endTime":690.292,"body":"where you don't have product"},{"startTime":690.482,"endTime":693.602,"body":"managers, That's cool, like cool."},{"startTime":693.632,"endTime":695.762,"body":"Amazon didn't have product"},{"startTime":693.632,"endTime":695.762,"body":"managers back in the day either."},{"startTime":696.302,"endTime":699.212,"body":"What they did was they, they"},{"startTime":696.302,"endTime":699.212,"body":"appointed single threaded leaders"},{"startTime":699.332,"endTime":702.272,"body":"for initiatives and they went back"},{"startTime":699.332,"endTime":702.272,"body":"to those leaders, and then they went"},{"startTime":702.272,"endTime":704.232,"body":"into like Amazon Alexa for example."},{"startTime":704.752,"endTime":707.693,"body":"When they launched Alexa, the"},{"startTime":704.752,"endTime":707.693,"body":"individual in charge of Alexa"},{"startTime":707.698,"endTime":709.872,"body":"wrote a wrote a uh, a six pager."},{"startTime":710.262,"endTime":714.402,"body":"For Alexa and then got funding"},{"startTime":710.262,"endTime":714.402,"body":"and got a team and spun up and"},{"startTime":714.402,"endTime":715.742,"body":"tried to get Alexa off the ground."},{"startTime":715.922,"endTime":719.882,"body":"There was a, a, there was actually a other"},{"startTime":715.922,"endTime":719.882,"body":"initiatives that got launched that led to"},{"startTime":719.882,"endTime":724.232,"body":"a, anyway, the, the point is at Amazon,"},{"startTime":719.882,"endTime":724.232,"body":"they went back to that single threaded"},{"startTime":724.232,"endTime":726.653,"body":"of leader that was in charge from the"},{"startTime":724.232,"endTime":726.653,"body":"business and that was a go-to person."},{"startTime":726.942,"endTime":729.142,"body":"So that would've been"},{"startTime":726.942,"endTime":729.142,"body":"the person to prioritize."},{"startTime":729.877,"endTime":730.777,"body":"In the real world."},{"startTime":731.287,"endTime":732.997,"body":"I'm not saying Amazon's"},{"startTime":731.287,"endTime":732.997,"body":"not the real world."},{"startTime":733.297,"endTime":737.247,"body":"However all for the rest of"},{"startTime":733.297,"endTime":737.247,"body":"the real world you have product"},{"startTime":737.247,"endTime":738.927,"body":"managers and they make these calls."},{"startTime":739.557,"endTime":742.617,"body":"What happens to companies that have"},{"startTime":739.557,"endTime":742.617,"body":"multiple product lines, multiple product"},{"startTime":742.617,"endTime":744.477,"body":"managers, everybody's got their P one."},{"startTime":744.957,"endTime":745.797,"body":"What do you do then?"},{"startTime":746.247,"endTime":748.257,"body":"Uh, well, hopefully all the"},{"startTime":746.247,"endTime":748.257,"body":"product managers have their own"},{"startTime":748.257,"endTime":749.397,"body":"teams, and that's not a problem."},{"startTime":749.851,"endTime":750.811,"body":"You live in Nirvana."},{"startTime":751.018,"endTime":754.321,"body":"But also like  if you're a"},{"startTime":751.018,"endTime":754.321,"body":"product manager and you share."},{"startTime":755.036,"endTime":756.686,"body":"The same team as other product managers."},{"startTime":757.256,"endTime":758.756,"body":"Whoa, boy I can't help you."},{"startTime":759.086,"endTime":761.486,"body":"Like I, there's not a lot of dead"},{"startTime":759.086,"endTime":761.486,"body":"ends on the podcast where we're"},{"startTime":761.486,"endTime":764.486,"body":"like, we come to a cul-de-sac and we"},{"startTime":761.486,"endTime":764.486,"body":"just gotta turn around and go home."},{"startTime":764.846,"endTime":767.151,"body":"But this is definitely one"},{"startTime":764.846,"endTime":767.151,"body":"of them what are you doing"},{"startTime":767.151,"endTime":768.411,"body":"with your life at that point?"},{"startTime":768.691,"endTime":769.796,"body":"learn, learn to code."},{"startTime":769.856,"endTime":771.597,"body":"Like I don't learn to weld."},{"startTime":771.956,"endTime":772.197,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":773.186,"endTime":773.876,"body":"You learned to weld?"},{"startTime":773.876,"endTime":774.236,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":774.535,"endTime":778.875,"body":"So one of those outcome-based roadmaps,"},{"startTime":774.535,"endTime":778.875,"body":"it requires communication, right?"},{"startTime":780.375,"endTime":782.235,"body":"How do you communicate"},{"startTime":780.375,"endTime":782.235,"body":"what you do and when?"},{"startTime":782.915,"endTime":784.995,"body":"I mean, see, I'm gonna keep"},{"startTime":782.915,"endTime":784.995,"body":"going back to that point."},{"startTime":785.035,"endTime":787.735,"body":"I like the challenge of the back and"},{"startTime":785.035,"endTime":787.735,"body":"forth of where you're going with this."},{"startTime":788.005,"endTime":790.645,"body":"But I like, I want to paint"},{"startTime":788.005,"endTime":790.645,"body":"you down on what you just said,"},{"startTime":790.645,"endTime":792.025,"body":"like it requires communication."},{"startTime":792.115,"endTime":794.755,"body":"Like as opposed to not communicating."},{"startTime":794.815,"endTime":795.385,"body":"Oh, no, no."},{"startTime":795.385,"endTime":799.285,"body":"Look, if you have a Gantt chart, you put"},{"startTime":795.385,"endTime":799.285,"body":"it up on the wall, virtual wall, whatever."},{"startTime":799.685,"endTime":800.885,"body":"Everybody knows what's happening."},{"startTime":801.275,"endTime":803.285,"body":"I know when things are getting done right."},{"startTime":805.145,"endTime":807.095,"body":"Doesn't need communication,"},{"startTime":805.145,"endTime":807.095,"body":"that's overhead."},{"startTime":807.185,"endTime":808.235,"body":"I will, I will take that."},{"startTime":808.235,"endTime":809.255,"body":"Don't get your teams in meetings."},{"startTime":809.26,"endTime":809.945,"body":"Get 'em coding."},{"startTime":810.225,"endTime":812.805,"body":"Also if we're putting the"},{"startTime":810.225,"endTime":812.805,"body":"Gant chart on the wall, the"},{"startTime":812.81,"endTime":814.805,"body":"challenge is you can't update it."},{"startTime":816.54,"endTime":820.38,"body":"Oh, I, I've got four people doing"},{"startTime":816.54,"endTime":820.38,"body":"that full-time updating and ripping"},{"startTime":820.38,"endTime":823.73,"body":"down old ones but, but, but also,"},{"startTime":820.38,"endTime":823.73,"body":"like I, I, they call the pmo."},{"startTime":823.82,"endTime":827.56,"body":"I like where you're going with this"},{"startTime":823.82,"endTime":827.56,"body":"everybody who does maintain a Gantt chart"},{"startTime":827.59,"endTime":830.21,"body":"in actuality let me like, let me back up."},{"startTime":830.23,"endTime":831.05,"body":"Let me back up."},{"startTime":831.05,"endTime":832.85,"body":"Cause I have a, I thought of"},{"startTime":831.05,"endTime":832.85,"body":"a stronger argument today."},{"startTime":833.18,"endTime":836.42,"body":"Anyone who maintains a Gantt"},{"startTime":833.18,"endTime":836.42,"body":"chart updates a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":836.66,"endTime":837.65,"body":"Hold onto to that one."},{"startTime":837.75,"endTime":840.69,"body":"I'm checking my watch of the time"},{"startTime":837.75,"endTime":840.69,"body":"because there may have been a side"},{"startTime":840.69,"endTime":842.55,"body":"tangent that got cut out of this podcast."},{"startTime":842.91,"endTime":846.9,"body":"Maybe, but if there was the"},{"startTime":842.91,"endTime":846.9,"body":"point of the side tangent was"},{"startTime":847.77,"endTime":850.83,"body":"all Gantt charts I've"},{"startTime":847.77,"endTime":850.83,"body":"ever seen get updated."},{"startTime":853.05,"endTime":853.5,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":853.56,"endTime":854.22,"body":"Yes, they do."},{"startTime":854.22,"endTime":858.27,"body":"The technical term for that"},{"startTime":854.22,"endTime":858.27,"body":"is called a re baselining."},{"startTime":858.9,"endTime":864.03,"body":"Re baselining, or in layman's"},{"startTime":858.9,"endTime":864.03,"body":"terms, it's, we plan this out,"},{"startTime":864.03,"endTime":865.625,"body":"but it's not working out that way."},{"startTime":865.625,"endTime":866.915,"body":"So let's just update the plan."},{"startTime":866.945,"endTime":867.035,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":868.13,"endTime":868.46,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":868.73,"endTime":872.27,"body":"That's called re baselining In"},{"startTime":868.73,"endTime":872.27,"body":"the waterfall world of working,"},{"startTime":872.45,"endTime":876.08,"body":"There's a human influence"},{"startTime":872.45,"endTime":876.08,"body":"hack about to-do lists."},{"startTime":876.785,"endTime":881.395,"body":"Like if I give you a to-do list and it"},{"startTime":876.785,"endTime":881.395,"body":"has too many things for you to do, like"},{"startTime":881.395,"endTime":884.605,"body":"you start getting anxious and it starts"},{"startTime":881.395,"endTime":884.605,"body":"stressing you out, that's like, no, uh"},{"startTime":885.115,"endTime":890.305,"body":"when you have like 58 unread like emails"},{"startTime":885.115,"endTime":890.305,"body":"or whatever oh, I come, come back to"},{"startTime":890.305,"endTime":893.095,"body":"work on Monday and I'm kind of stressed"},{"startTime":890.305,"endTime":893.095,"body":"cause I got a lot of emails or whatever,"},{"startTime":893.195,"endTime":895.495,"body":"and I tell people like, mark all is red."},{"startTime":895.945,"endTime":901.105,"body":"And they, they look at me like I'm crazy,"},{"startTime":895.945,"endTime":901.105,"body":"but I'm serious mark them all is read."},{"startTime":902.205,"endTime":905.535,"body":"The ones that were important will"},{"startTime":902.205,"endTime":905.535,"body":"follow back up with you because the,"},{"startTime":905.625,"endTime":911.385,"body":"the just the weight of those unread"},{"startTime":905.625,"endTime":911.385,"body":"messages sitting on top of you Oh yeah."},{"startTime":911.485,"endTime":913.255,"body":"I've got all these tasks that I"},{"startTime":911.485,"endTime":913.255,"body":"have scheduled for you to have"},{"startTime":913.255,"endTime":914.905,"body":"done and you haven't done them yet."},{"startTime":915.145,"endTime":917.215,"body":"Just that weight sitting on top of you."},{"startTime":917.545,"endTime":921.175,"body":"You will not turn in your"},{"startTime":917.545,"endTime":921.175,"body":"best work under that pressure."},{"startTime":921.715,"endTime":925.555,"body":"The better way would be to"},{"startTime":921.715,"endTime":925.555,"body":"keep your work flexible."},{"startTime":926.515,"endTime":930.865,"body":"To where you choose based on the signal"},{"startTime":926.515,"endTime":930.865,"body":"you're receiving, what to work on next."},{"startTime":931.495,"endTime":936.385,"body":"So rather than a Gantt chart, I tell you"},{"startTime":931.495,"endTime":936.385,"body":"my top priority and I let you self-manage"},{"startTime":936.385,"endTime":942.025,"body":"and or self-organize your way towards"},{"startTime":936.385,"endTime":942.025,"body":"the most important work based on data,"},{"startTime":942.415,"endTime":946.355,"body":"not based on what was planned by somebody"},{"startTime":942.415,"endTime":946.355,"body":"else a month ago, three months ago."},{"startTime":946.675,"endTime":950.585,"body":"I mean, in the example we just looked"},{"startTime":946.675,"endTime":950.585,"body":"at, it was five-ish months ago."},{"startTime":950.585,"endTime":950.645,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":950.795,"endTime":954.095,"body":"Keeping the work flexible, keeping"},{"startTime":950.795,"endTime":954.095,"body":"the ability to go from highest"},{"startTime":954.095,"endTime":955.325,"body":"priority to highest priority."},{"startTime":955.505,"endTime":959.435,"body":"Flexible and not tying you into things"},{"startTime":955.505,"endTime":959.435,"body":"that were thought of months ago means"},{"startTime":959.615,"endTime":965.795,"body":"if something big blows up, you are"},{"startTime":959.615,"endTime":965.795,"body":"free to deal with the highest priority"},{"startTime":965.8,"endTime":969.115,"body":"item and stay on it until it's no"},{"startTime":965.8,"endTime":969.115,"body":"longer the highest priority item,"},{"startTime":970.235,"endTime":973.175,"body":"because that is where the most value"},{"startTime":970.235,"endTime":973.175,"body":"in the business is Not something that,"},{"startTime":973.205,"endTime":977.255,"body":"not, not you have to do it because"},{"startTime":973.205,"endTime":977.255,"body":"somebody planned it out for you."},{"startTime":977.675,"endTime":981.095,"body":"Several months ago before they"},{"startTime":977.675,"endTime":981.095,"body":"knew about the problems of today."},{"startTime":981.935,"endTime":982.175,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":982.175,"endTime":985.845,"body":"So you're really saying that that approach"},{"startTime":982.175,"endTime":985.845,"body":"allows you to handle emerging work."},{"startTime":985.845,"endTime":986.656,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":986.775,"endTime":990.255,"body":"To bring it back to your point, and I"},{"startTime":986.775,"endTime":990.255,"body":"just went off in a different direction,"},{"startTime":990.465,"endTime":993.475,"body":"bring it back to your point, your point"},{"startTime":990.465,"endTime":993.475,"body":"risk communication, meaning like I'm"},{"startTime":993.475,"endTime":996.505,"body":"gonna make this plan for you and then you"},{"startTime":993.475,"endTime":996.505,"body":"shouldn't need to talk to anyone until"},{"startTime":996.505,"endTime":998.395,"body":"you punch out your cogs in the machine."},{"startTime":998.685,"endTime":1006.535,"body":"and my pushback to that,  what you planned"},{"startTime":998.685,"endTime":1006.535,"body":"months ago has potentially no relevance"},{"startTime":1006.54,"endTime":1009.115,"body":"to today because the world's moved on."},{"startTime":1009.115,"endTime":1009.655,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1009.775,"endTime":1010.075,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1010.255,"endTime":1010.795,"body":"Makes sense."},{"startTime":1010.795,"endTime":1014.545,"body":"Because the business needs to"},{"startTime":1010.795,"endTime":1014.545,"body":"be able to move more quickly."},{"startTime":1014.905,"endTime":1018.895,"body":"I, I'll give you, I'll actually give"},{"startTime":1014.905,"endTime":1018.895,"body":"you an example from experience I"},{"startTime":1018.895,"endTime":1022.855,"body":"was at a company one time and uh,"},{"startTime":1018.895,"endTime":1022.855,"body":"there the majority of the revenue of"},{"startTime":1022.855,"endTime":1024.205,"body":"that company came from one customer."},{"startTime":1024.535,"endTime":1029.145,"body":"And that customer was threatening"},{"startTime":1024.535,"endTime":1029.145,"body":"to cancel their subscription and"},{"startTime":1029.145,"endTime":1033.105,"body":"leave, which basically would've"},{"startTime":1029.145,"endTime":1033.105,"body":"forced the company to lay off."},{"startTime":1033.105,"endTime":1035.715,"body":"I mean, at least 50% of"},{"startTime":1033.105,"endTime":1035.715,"body":"the workforce basically."},{"startTime":1035.725,"endTime":1043.125,"body":"And the product team, development team,"},{"startTime":1035.725,"endTime":1043.125,"body":"executive leadership, had to come together"},{"startTime":1043.125,"endTime":1048.5,"body":"and decide what we could do in the"},{"startTime":1043.125,"endTime":1048.5,"body":"time given to try to save the contract."},{"startTime":1050.21,"endTime":1052.28,"body":"How are you gonna do that when"},{"startTime":1050.21,"endTime":1052.28,"body":"you're trying to follow a plan"},{"startTime":1052.28,"endTime":1053.48,"body":"that was built six months ago?"},{"startTime":1053.48,"endTime":1057.2,"body":"Well, we, we would like to respond"},{"startTime":1053.48,"endTime":1057.2,"body":"and do whatever, but we're following"},{"startTime":1057.2,"endTime":1060.235,"body":"this plan that people listen to this"},{"startTime":1057.2,"endTime":1060.235,"body":"example that like, are for Gantt charts"},{"startTime":1060.24,"endTime":1062.815,"body":"or whatever gonna be like, well, of"},{"startTime":1060.24,"endTime":1062.815,"body":"course you would throw out the Gant"},{"startTime":1062.815,"endTime":1064.465,"body":"chart at that point and grant new one."},{"startTime":1064.465,"endTime":1065.155,"body":"Well, at what?"},{"startTime":1065.215,"endTime":1069.385,"body":"Like, at that point, what w what was the"},{"startTime":1065.215,"endTime":1069.385,"body":"point of expending all that time, building"},{"startTime":1069.385,"endTime":1071.845,"body":"that elaborate plan months ahead of time?"},{"startTime":1071.965,"endTime":1072.955,"body":"We could have been."},{"startTime":1073.585,"endTime":1075.905,"body":"Doing what I'm what I'm"},{"startTime":1073.585,"endTime":1075.905,"body":"elaborating for right now."},{"startTime":1075.905,"endTime":1079.235,"body":"We could have been being flexible,"},{"startTime":1075.905,"endTime":1079.235,"body":"responding to, to, to what's most"},{"startTime":1079.235,"endTime":1083.195,"body":"valuable in customer input months"},{"startTime":1079.235,"endTime":1083.195,"body":"back, and all that time that went"},{"startTime":1083.195,"endTime":1085.955,"body":"into planning, we could have been"},{"startTime":1083.195,"endTime":1085.955,"body":"using that to actually deliver."},{"startTime":1086.857,"endTime":1088.057,"body":"Yeah, you, you make a good point."},{"startTime":1088.057,"endTime":1092.037,"body":"It aligns with the agile ethos of,"},{"startTime":1088.057,"endTime":1092.037,"body":"responding change over following a plan."},{"startTime":1092.037,"endTime":1092.397,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1092.517,"endTime":1094.617,"body":"That's really what that means as well."},{"startTime":1095.337,"endTime":1098.487,"body":"I went into this a little"},{"startTime":1095.337,"endTime":1098.487,"body":"bit in my previous diatribe"},{"startTime":1098.487,"endTime":1099.717,"body":"here like five minutes ago."},{"startTime":1100.127,"endTime":1105.017,"body":"A Gantt chart does not allow the"},{"startTime":1100.127,"endTime":1105.017,"body":"team the flexibility to experiment"},{"startTime":1105.017,"endTime":1106.187,"body":"through continuous discovery."},{"startTime":1106.187,"endTime":1109.307,"body":"Continuous discovery, meaning we're"},{"startTime":1106.187,"endTime":1109.307,"body":"gonna try something, we're gonna put"},{"startTime":1109.307,"endTime":1115.337,"body":"some signal out there, and if we catch"},{"startTime":1109.307,"endTime":1115.337,"body":"fire, we're gonna go deep on that thing."},{"startTime":1116.222,"endTime":1119.912,"body":"So like what, what I explained a"},{"startTime":1116.222,"endTime":1119.912,"body":"little earlier about like, oh, we're"},{"startTime":1119.912,"endTime":1125.572,"body":"gonna try to decrease churn by 2%,"},{"startTime":1119.912,"endTime":1125.572,"body":"3%, whatever whatever percentage."},{"startTime":1125.812,"endTime":1125.932,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1125.937,"endTime":1129.162,"body":"Or we're gonna try to uh, the, the"},{"startTime":1125.937,"endTime":1129.162,"body":"number of people that try to make it"},{"startTime":1129.162,"endTime":1132.212,"body":"through registration or whatever, we're"},{"startTime":1129.162,"endTime":1132.212,"body":"gonna try to raise that by 5%, well,"},{"startTime":1132.302,"endTime":1136.232,"body":"if that's our goal, we have to start"},{"startTime":1132.302,"endTime":1136.232,"body":"by saying, well, why don't people make"},{"startTime":1136.232,"endTime":1137.252,"body":"it through the whole registration?"},{"startTime":1137.612,"endTime":1140.852,"body":"Maybe it's this, maybe it's this, and"},{"startTime":1137.612,"endTime":1140.852,"body":"then we can try a little bit of something"},{"startTime":1141.002,"endTime":1142.472,"body":"and see if there's signal there."},{"startTime":1142.622,"endTime":1145.412,"body":"And if the signal doesn't pan"},{"startTime":1142.622,"endTime":1145.412,"body":"out, then we don't do it right."},{"startTime":1145.412,"endTime":1147.182,"body":"This, this works for business strategy."},{"startTime":1147.242,"endTime":1151.772,"body":"This works up and down the whole,"},{"startTime":1147.242,"endTime":1151.772,"body":"I know like I've, I'm trying not"},{"startTime":1151.772,"endTime":1155.542,"body":"to be heavyweight with the strategy"},{"startTime":1151.772,"endTime":1155.542,"body":"and vision and mission, , just"},{"startTime":1155.542,"endTime":1157.882,"body":"go with me for a second and don't"},{"startTime":1155.542,"endTime":1157.882,"body":"stop the video at this point."},{"startTime":1157.932,"endTime":1161.592,"body":"If you are trying a new strategy, oh,"},{"startTime":1157.932,"endTime":1161.592,"body":"I think we could hit in this market."},{"startTime":1161.597,"endTime":1166.662,"body":"If we just did X, y, z, well, let me go,"},{"startTime":1161.597,"endTime":1166.662,"body":"let me just go try to do X, y, Z for a, a"},{"startTime":1166.667,"endTime":1168.122,"body":"little bit and see if we get any signal."},{"startTime":1168.342,"endTime":1172.782,"body":"Oh, when I change this and this and this"},{"startTime":1168.342,"endTime":1172.782,"body":"for X, Y, Z, we got 20% more viewership"},{"startTime":1172.832,"endTime":1175.382,"body":"."},{"startTime":1172.832,"endTime":1175.382,"body":"You know, anybody that runs a YouTube"},{"startTime":1175.852,"endTime":1178.312,"body":"Different thumbnail, different"},{"startTime":1175.852,"endTime":1178.312,"body":"captions, different titles,"},{"startTime":1178.362,"endTime":1179.592,"body":"different subject matter or whatever."},{"startTime":1179.592,"endTime":1182.802,"body":"And if there's signal, boom, you go off"},{"startTime":1179.592,"endTime":1182.802,"body":"in that direction and you build your,"},{"startTime":1182.892,"endTime":1184.602,"body":"your brand or your product or whatever."},{"startTime":1184.867,"endTime":1187.677,"body":"You're describing what I call"},{"startTime":1184.867,"endTime":1187.677,"body":"an experimentation mindset."},{"startTime":1187.677,"endTime":1187.887,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1187.957,"endTime":1188.307,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1188.307,"endTime":1188.587,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1188.787,"endTime":1191.607,"body":"Try something and then learn from that."},{"startTime":1191.607,"endTime":1191.697,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1191.937,"endTime":1192.807,"body":"If it work, great."},{"startTime":1192.867,"endTime":1193.377,"body":"Do more."},{"startTime":1193.437,"endTime":1193.497,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1193.497,"endTime":1194.997,"body":"If it doesn't work, fine."},{"startTime":1195.027,"endTime":1195.237,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1195.242,"endTime":1195.427,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1195.627,"endTime":1197.577,"body":"Have a hypothesis going in, right."},{"startTime":1197.577,"endTime":1200.007,"body":"Saying If we do this,"},{"startTime":1197.577,"endTime":1200.007,"body":"we expect X to happen."},{"startTime":1200.007,"endTime":1200.247,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1200.787,"endTime":1206.097,"body":"Well, the, again, the opposite of"},{"startTime":1200.787,"endTime":1206.097,"body":"this is I planned for you to do number"},{"startTime":1206.097,"endTime":1210.447,"body":"one, two and three, four months ago,"},{"startTime":1206.097,"endTime":1210.447,"body":"or three months ago in my planning."},{"startTime":1210.857,"endTime":1213.317,"body":"Or dare I say my PI planning?"},{"startTime":1213.347,"endTime":1214.217,"body":"Oh no."},{"startTime":1214.217,"endTime":1216.707,"body":"Oh, Brian's being topical today."},{"startTime":1216.847,"endTime":1219.122,"body":"And basically I told you,"},{"startTime":1216.847,"endTime":1219.122,"body":"that's what I wanted to do."},{"startTime":1219.122,"endTime":1220.142,"body":"So you gotta get it done."},{"startTime":1221.072,"endTime":1223.802,"body":"Yeah, I mean, if you're really"},{"startTime":1221.072,"endTime":1223.802,"body":"following the, the old fashioned"},{"startTime":1223.802,"endTime":1226.422,"body":"way of working, it's worse than"},{"startTime":1223.802,"endTime":1226.422,"body":"that because the teams are handed."},{"startTime":1227.537,"endTime":1229.097,"body":"Work breakdown packages."},{"startTime":1229.157,"endTime":1229.277,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1229.277,"endTime":1232.367,"body":"That were designed by, I don't"},{"startTime":1229.277,"endTime":1232.367,"body":"know, a project manager or"},{"startTime":1232.367,"endTime":1234.307,"body":"somebody by the pmo perhaps."},{"startTime":1234.307,"endTime":1234.397,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1234.697,"endTime":1235.417,"body":"Go do this."},{"startTime":1235.417,"endTime":1236.342,"body":"This is how you work."},{"startTime":1236.372,"endTime":1237.602,"body":"This is your package."},{"startTime":1237.692,"endTime":1237.782,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1237.842,"endTime":1239.102,"body":"That you start on this day."},{"startTime":1239.132,"endTime":1240.122,"body":"Finish on this day."},{"startTime":1240.127,"endTime":1240.292,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1240.432,"endTime":1240.652,"body":"And."},{"startTime":1241.472,"endTime":1242.072,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":1242.132,"endTime":1244.172,"body":"That's your, that's how you"},{"startTime":1242.132,"endTime":1244.172,"body":"are, you're measured, right?"},{"startTime":1244.362,"endTime":1247.922,"body":"I'll present what I think is actually"},{"startTime":1244.362,"endTime":1247.922,"body":"a legitimate counter to this, which is"},{"startTime":1247.922,"endTime":1253.112,"body":"sometimes you do have to do things that"},{"startTime":1247.922,"endTime":1253.112,"body":"need to be done by certain milestones."},{"startTime":1253.322,"endTime":1255.912,"body":"Like like for example, if I,"},{"startTime":1253.322,"endTime":1255.912,"body":"I was at a company one time."},{"startTime":1256.242,"endTime":1259.572,"body":"Where the corporate like"},{"startTime":1256.242,"endTime":1259.572,"body":"holding entity came down."},{"startTime":1259.752,"endTime":1263.592,"body":"They did an audit of all the IT"},{"startTime":1259.752,"endTime":1263.592,"body":"systems, old school organization, right."},{"startTime":1264.427,"endTime":1266.737,"body":"And they're like, well, these"},{"startTime":1264.427,"endTime":1266.737,"body":"systems are very, very old."},{"startTime":1266.977,"endTime":1269.977,"body":"They're at risk for security compliance."},{"startTime":1269.977,"endTime":1271.717,"body":"All, all not scalable."},{"startTime":1271.722,"endTime":1273.847,"body":"You know, basically they're,"},{"startTime":1271.722,"endTime":1273.847,"body":"they're very at risk."},{"startTime":1273.877,"endTime":1275.917,"body":"They should be at end of life basically."},{"startTime":1276.187,"endTime":1277.487,"body":"And you should probably replace them."},{"startTime":1277.877,"endTime":1280.487,"body":"And since we're the holding company,"},{"startTime":1277.877,"endTime":1280.487,"body":"we're gonna press you to say,"},{"startTime":1280.797,"endTime":1283.707,"body":"we want them replaced by X date."},{"startTime":1284.007,"endTime":1284.307,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1284.367,"endTime":1285.927,"body":"That this is the holding company."},{"startTime":1286.047,"endTime":1290.472,"body":"They're, if you haven't done it"},{"startTime":1286.047,"endTime":1290.472,"body":"through part of normally knocking down"},{"startTime":1290.742,"endTime":1294.432,"body":"technical risk and keeping the risk"},{"startTime":1290.742,"endTime":1294.432,"body":"of the business low or some people"},{"startTime":1294.432,"endTime":1297.907,"body":"call this architectural runway or"},{"startTime":1294.432,"endTime":1297.907,"body":"technical runway or whatever right."},{"startTime":1297.967,"endTime":1301.637,"body":"The, the somebody in leadership"},{"startTime":1297.967,"endTime":1301.637,"body":"is gonna say, enough, I don't"},{"startTime":1301.637,"endTime":1302.307,"body":"wanna deal with this risk."},{"startTime":1302.657,"endTime":1303.437,"body":"Here's your date."},{"startTime":1303.647,"endTime":1303.997,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1304.187,"endTime":1305.807,"body":"Well, indeed there could"},{"startTime":1304.187,"endTime":1305.807,"body":"be penalties, right?"},{"startTime":1305.807,"endTime":1307.937,"body":"If you don't be c compliant"},{"startTime":1305.807,"endTime":1307.937,"body":"by a certain date."},{"startTime":1307.937,"endTime":1308.927,"body":"So yeah, there's that."},{"startTime":1309.167,"endTime":1312.857,"body":"There's also other regulatory"},{"startTime":1309.167,"endTime":1312.857,"body":"reasons why this is one of 'em."},{"startTime":1312.917,"endTime":1313.067,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1313.247,"endTime":1316.147,"body":"But like for example, GDPR"},{"startTime":1313.247,"endTime":1316.147,"body":"kicked in it when it did."},{"startTime":1316.147,"endTime":1316.237,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1316.327,"endTime":1318.487,"body":"See, you had to get, you"},{"startTime":1316.327,"endTime":1318.487,"body":"had to by, by then, right?"},{"startTime":1318.517,"endTime":1321.548,"body":"Uh, you had to make sure that"},{"startTime":1318.517,"endTime":1321.548,"body":"all your systems were such that"},{"startTime":1321.553,"endTime":1324.697,"body":"you didn't store personal data"},{"startTime":1321.553,"endTime":1324.697,"body":"in Germany, things like that."},{"startTime":1324.697,"endTime":1326.497,"body":"But again, like I, I, I bring this up."},{"startTime":1326.702,"endTime":1330.992,"body":"Because I expect this would be the"},{"startTime":1326.702,"endTime":1330.992,"body":"normal counterpoint that I would be"},{"startTime":1330.992,"endTime":1337.922,"body":"kind of arguing against on this, but I,"},{"startTime":1330.992,"endTime":1337.922,"body":"I see it as a, a, a milestone marker."},{"startTime":1338.422,"endTime":1342.442,"body":"On the top of your backlog, that"},{"startTime":1338.422,"endTime":1342.442,"body":"just stays there to remind you."},{"startTime":1342.712,"endTime":1345.352,"body":"And you are now in your, now, next, later."},{"startTime":1345.952,"endTime":1351.002,"body":"You just stay on this until you hit"},{"startTime":1345.952,"endTime":1351.002,"body":"that compliance and you can clear all"},{"startTime":1351.002,"endTime":1353.942,"body":"your flags or whatever, and then you"},{"startTime":1351.002,"endTime":1353.942,"body":"can move on to whatever else you need"},{"startTime":1353.942,"endTime":1357.562,"body":"because that like being compliant is your"},{"startTime":1353.942,"endTime":1357.562,"body":"business's top priority at that point?"},{"startTime":1357.562,"endTime":1357.682,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1357.682,"endTime":1360.352,"body":"It's in the A column and all"},{"startTime":1357.682,"endTime":1360.352,"body":"you do is, to your point, yeah."},{"startTime":1360.357,"endTime":1364.732,"body":"You, you just prioritize those bits of"},{"startTime":1360.357,"endTime":1364.732,"body":"work that gets you to that compliance."},{"startTime":1364.737,"endTime":1364.822,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1365.062,"endTime":1368.742,"body":"Over and above the other normal"},{"startTime":1365.062,"endTime":1368.742,"body":"the normal Right pieces of work."},{"startTime":1368.742,"endTime":1369.222,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1369.272,"endTime":1370.842,"body":"We've talked a lot about the business."},{"startTime":1371.677,"endTime":1374.927,"body":"We haven't talked to anything about"},{"startTime":1371.677,"endTime":1374.927,"body":"the teams yet which is what my, my"},{"startTime":1374.927,"endTime":1377.957,"body":"last two points have to do with the"},{"startTime":1374.927,"endTime":1377.957,"body":"teams and the people that the teams are"},{"startTime":1377.957,"endTime":1380.457,"body":"working for, which is number uh, number."},{"startTime":1380.577,"endTime":1381.567,"body":"I'm not on any numbers."},{"startTime":1381.567,"endTime":1382.557,"body":"I'm not doing any numbers."},{"startTime":1382.677,"endTime":1385.277,"body":"You can't, like ai has got nothing on me!"},{"startTime":1385.487,"endTime":1389.117,"body":"Working on outcome-based roadmaps,"},{"startTime":1385.487,"endTime":1389.117,"body":"it's better for the team members."},{"startTime":1389.597,"endTime":1391.457,"body":"It's better for their skillsets."},{"startTime":1391.607,"endTime":1393.257,"body":"It's better for the"},{"startTime":1391.607,"endTime":1393.257,"body":"future of their careers."},{"startTime":1393.497,"endTime":1398.472,"body":"It's better for them, motivationally,"},{"startTime":1393.497,"endTime":1398.472,"body":"organizationally, developmentally,"},{"startTime":1399.232,"endTime":1402.842,"body":"physically, emotion . I like spiritually."},{"startTime":1403.284,"endTime":1405.114,"body":"But so here's a counterpoint to that."},{"startTime":1405.144,"endTime":1405.234,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":1405.239,"endTime":1409.194,"body":"But, but, but there's no"},{"startTime":1405.239,"endTime":1409.194,"body":"accountability when they fail."},{"startTime":1409.314,"endTime":1410.654,"body":"Who do I blame when they fail?"},{"startTime":1411.579,"endTime":1413.589,"body":"You are correct."},{"startTime":1413.739,"endTime":1416.609,"body":"There is, we, we I need a neck to choke."},{"startTime":1416.789,"endTime":1419.129,"body":"We have a podcast we"},{"startTime":1416.789,"endTime":1419.129,"body":"have a podcast on this."},{"startTime":1419.129,"endTime":1421.919,"body":"We have a podcast that answers"},{"startTime":1419.129,"endTime":1421.919,"body":"this question about accountability"},{"startTime":1421.919,"endTime":1423.929,"body":"of like, yeah, who do I blame?"},{"startTime":1424.179,"endTime":1429.314,"body":"I need somebody, some person,"},{"startTime":1424.179,"endTime":1429.314,"body":"I need one individual to blame,"},{"startTime":1429.764,"endTime":1431.264,"body":"I would push back against this."},{"startTime":1431.324,"endTime":1434.664,"body":"Conceptually, conceptually,"},{"startTime":1431.324,"endTime":1434.664,"body":"physically  I need to, I need to"},{"startTime":1434.669,"endTime":1440.994,"body":"push back against this whole concept"},{"startTime":1434.669,"endTime":1440.994,"body":"of needing to blame somebody."},{"startTime":1441.304,"endTime":1443.284,"body":"If blame is required in your organization."},{"startTime":1443.484,"endTime":1444.624,"body":"You've already failed."},{"startTime":1444.804,"endTime":1445.374,"body":"First of all,"},{"startTime":1445.474,"endTime":1450.844,"body":"If your organization is as such where"},{"startTime":1445.474,"endTime":1450.844,"body":"you just can't fathom that something"},{"startTime":1450.849,"endTime":1454.264,"body":"could have gone awry or something"},{"startTime":1450.849,"endTime":1454.264,"body":"couldn't have been foreseen and,"},{"startTime":1454.384,"endTime":1456.214,"body":"and you must blame somebody for it."},{"startTime":1456.904,"endTime":1459.364,"body":"And you don't have a culture"},{"startTime":1456.904,"endTime":1459.364,"body":"where you can learn from mistakes."},{"startTime":1459.724,"endTime":1462.544,"body":"And you don't have what I was talking"},{"startTime":1459.724,"endTime":1462.544,"body":"about in the previous podcast we"},{"startTime":1462.544,"endTime":1466.084,"body":"did for Clint about these things are"},{"startTime":1462.544,"endTime":1466.084,"body":"unknown, so we should mark them as"},{"startTime":1466.084,"endTime":1470.524,"body":"capabilities and learnings and build"},{"startTime":1466.084,"endTime":1470.524,"body":"them appropriately to the learning bucket"},{"startTime":1470.524,"endTime":1472.264,"body":"where learning and development comes from."},{"startTime":1472.444,"endTime":1475.234,"body":"If you don't have anything like this"},{"startTime":1472.444,"endTime":1475.234,"body":"and you think that training time"},{"startTime":1475.234,"endTime":1477.844,"body":"should come outta people's personal"},{"startTime":1475.234,"endTime":1477.844,"body":"time and on the weekends or whatever"},{"startTime":1479.644,"endTime":1480.964,"body":"thanks for watching this podcast."},{"startTime":1480.964,"endTime":1482.834,"body":"So like, let and subscribe like."},{"startTime":1483.194,"endTime":1486.054,"body":"I, there's not a lot I can do to help"},{"startTime":1483.194,"endTime":1486.054,"body":"if that's where your leadership is"},{"startTime":1486.054,"endTime":1490.669,"body":"going I fundamentally disagree with"},{"startTime":1486.054,"endTime":1490.669,"body":"that method of running a company,"},{"startTime":1491.029,"endTime":1492.859,"body":"running a team, it's not gonna work."},{"startTime":1492.979,"endTime":1494.119,"body":"You're not gonna get the best people."},{"startTime":1494.179,"endTime":1496.279,"body":"You're always gonna get stunted results."},{"startTime":1496.309,"endTime":1497.719,"body":"You're not gonna get creativity."},{"startTime":1498.589,"endTime":1500.659,"body":"Yeah, so taking, again, I'm staying on."},{"startTime":1500.719,"endTime":1502.91,"body":"I agree with you, but I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1500.719,"endTime":1502.91,"body":"stay on the other side for bit."},{"startTime":1502.915,"endTime":1507.269,"body":"Stay on, stay on it but it works for"},{"startTime":1502.915,"endTime":1507.269,"body":"me because I told my management that."},{"startTime":1507.354,"endTime":1511.944,"body":"I'm gonna get something done by a certain"},{"startTime":1507.354,"endTime":1511.944,"body":"date, and when that didn't happen, I"},{"startTime":1511.944,"endTime":1514.164,"body":"cannot tell my management that I failed."},{"startTime":1514.169,"endTime":1517.044,"body":"Right, so what I must do"},{"startTime":1514.169,"endTime":1517.044,"body":"is to sacrifice somebody."},{"startTime":1517.224,"endTime":1517.404,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1517.404,"endTime":1520.164,"body":"So I'm gonna look at the team"},{"startTime":1517.404,"endTime":1520.164,"body":"or team members or whoever"},{"startTime":1520.169,"endTime":1521.934,"body":"and say, you guys failed."},{"startTime":1521.994,"endTime":1523.854,"body":"You didn't deliver it to my Yeah."},{"startTime":1523.914,"endTime":1525.074,"body":"Gantt chart based roadmap."},{"startTime":1525.284,"endTime":1525.634,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1526.044,"endTime":1530.488,"body":"If you're stuck in an organization"},{"startTime":1526.044,"endTime":1530.488,"body":"like this, The successful tactic"},{"startTime":1530.608,"endTime":1532.678,"body":"tactic, the, the successful tactic?"},{"startTime":1532.678,"endTime":1532.798,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1532.798,"endTime":1533.548,"body":"I'll call it tactic."},{"startTime":1533.728,"endTime":1538.828,"body":"The successful tactic that I've used"},{"startTime":1533.728,"endTime":1538.828,"body":"where you have individuals in the"},{"startTime":1538.828,"endTime":1544.558,"body":"organization, like project managers,"},{"startTime":1538.828,"endTime":1544.558,"body":"psychopaths, narcissists, what, like"},{"startTime":1544.558,"endTime":1547.878,"body":"who, whoever is exhibiting this type"},{"startTime":1544.558,"endTime":1547.878,"body":"of behavior in the organization."},{"startTime":1548.793,"endTime":1550.083,"body":"And you have to live with them."},{"startTime":1550.303,"endTime":1550.963,"body":"that's okay."},{"startTime":1550.968,"endTime":1551.473,"body":"That's okay."},{"startTime":1551.653,"endTime":1554.563,"body":"What my suggestions for this"},{"startTime":1551.653,"endTime":1554.563,"body":"is I wouldn't get caught alone."},{"startTime":1554.593,"endTime":1559.603,"body":"I would tackle this as in the"},{"startTime":1554.593,"endTime":1559.603,"body":"entire team because people are"},{"startTime":1559.633,"endTime":1562.953,"body":"naturally very uncomfortable going"},{"startTime":1559.633,"endTime":1562.953,"body":"in front of the entire tribe."},{"startTime":1563.908,"endTime":1569.008,"body":"And being the one person telling everybody"},{"startTime":1563.908,"endTime":1569.008,"body":"they're wrong and then standing firm in"},{"startTime":1569.008,"endTime":1570.958,"body":"that opinion that the whole team is wrong."},{"startTime":1571.408,"endTime":1574.918,"body":"Don't let a project manager or a"},{"startTime":1571.408,"endTime":1574.918,"body":"narcissist or whatever separate"},{"startTime":1574.923,"endTime":1577.888,"body":"one person from the whole team"},{"startTime":1574.923,"endTime":1577.888,"body":"and try to pin it on them."},{"startTime":1578.698,"endTime":1582.738,"body":"And, if your ALM tool or if your work"},{"startTime":1578.698,"endTime":1582.738,"body":"methods, or if your work breakdown or"},{"startTime":1582.738,"endTime":1586.208,"body":"whatever is structured in a way where"},{"startTime":1582.738,"endTime":1586.208,"body":"work is assigned to one individual"},{"startTime":1586.728,"endTime":1590.908,"body":"and it's made that way to be able to"},{"startTime":1586.728,"endTime":1590.908,"body":"target one person, I'd make a slight"},{"startTime":1590.908,"endTime":1594.488,"body":"change to that process if it's within"},{"startTime":1590.908,"endTime":1594.488,"body":"your control first, where work is"},{"startTime":1594.748,"endTime":1599.348,"body":"assigned to a team rather than to a"},{"startTime":1594.748,"endTime":1599.348,"body":"person, and be able to push back on it."},{"startTime":1599.348,"endTime":1602.228,"body":"But I would try to change"},{"startTime":1599.348,"endTime":1602.228,"body":"that culture from the inside."},{"startTime":1603.353,"endTime":1607.193,"body":"In tiny steps, if possible, if"},{"startTime":1603.353,"endTime":1607.193,"body":"you can't change that culture."},{"startTime":1607.193,"endTime":1608.633,"body":"And that's just a culture organization."},{"startTime":1609.473,"endTime":1610.673,"body":"There's, there's not a lot I can do."},{"startTime":1610.753,"endTime":1613.168,"body":"I, I can't tell you that, in a"},{"startTime":1610.753,"endTime":1613.168,"body":"culture where people are blaming,"},{"startTime":1613.568,"endTime":1615.998,"body":"you're gonna have failures and you're"},{"startTime":1613.568,"endTime":1615.998,"body":"never gonna learn from the failures."},{"startTime":1615.998,"endTime":1618.418,"body":"And if you can't learn from"},{"startTime":1615.998,"endTime":1618.418,"body":"failures, you're never gonna develop."},{"startTime":1618.908,"endTime":1620.948,"body":"And if you're never gonna develop,"},{"startTime":1618.908,"endTime":1620.948,"body":"you're never gonna go anywhere."},{"startTime":1620.948,"endTime":1624.818,"body":"So if you're okay staying static"},{"startTime":1620.948,"endTime":1624.818,"body":"forever for the rest of your career,"},{"startTime":1624.818,"endTime":1627.668,"body":"or as long as you're working in"},{"startTime":1624.818,"endTime":1627.668,"body":"that place, I mean, that's cool."},{"startTime":1628.088,"endTime":1631.328,"body":"As long as you understand that like"},{"startTime":1628.088,"endTime":1631.328,"body":"there will be people outside of your"},{"startTime":1631.328,"endTime":1633.908,"body":"organization that are developing,"},{"startTime":1631.328,"endTime":1633.908,"body":"that are learning, that are moving"},{"startTime":1633.908,"endTime":1636.758,"body":"on with their careers, that are"},{"startTime":1633.908,"endTime":1636.758,"body":"progressing and you will be stuck."},{"startTime":1637.058,"endTime":1640.298,"body":"So don't get stuck"},{"startTime":1637.058,"endTime":1640.298,"body":"around people like that."},{"startTime":1640.508,"endTime":1642.368,"body":"You don't need that kind"},{"startTime":1640.508,"endTime":1642.368,"body":"of negativity in your life."},{"startTime":1642.398,"endTime":1643.898,"body":"Nah, nobody's, ain't nobody got time."},{"startTime":1643.898,"endTime":1644.769,"body":"Ain't nobody got time for that."},{"startTime":1644.774,"endTime":1646.358,"body":"That's a, that's very true."},{"startTime":1646.418,"endTime":1649.148,"body":"I thought, I thought your tip was"},{"startTime":1646.418,"endTime":1649.148,"body":"gonna be, if you're stuck in that"},{"startTime":1649.148,"endTime":1651.533,"body":"environment, keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":1652.343,"endTime":1653.183,"body":"Get outta there."},{"startTime":1653.513,"endTime":1657.023,"body":"I I almost never tell people"},{"startTime":1653.513,"endTime":1657.023,"body":"to keep that resume up."},{"startTime":1657.053,"endTime":1661.108,"body":"I almost, I almost never tell people,"},{"startTime":1657.053,"endTime":1661.108,"body":"I worked in one place for a long time"},{"startTime":1661.108,"endTime":1663.898,"body":"and I really liked where I worked,"},{"startTime":1661.108,"endTime":1663.898,"body":"and I, I just, I don't like that"},{"startTime":1663.898,"endTime":1669.623,"body":"advice however, Like narcissists don't"},{"startTime":1663.898,"endTime":1669.623,"body":"have a, their nature is not to move."},{"startTime":1669.623,"endTime":1673.313,"body":"Their nature is they, they, they are not"},{"startTime":1669.623,"endTime":1673.313,"body":"the planets that revolve around the sun."},{"startTime":1673.313,"endTime":1676.193,"body":"They're the sun and they think they're,"},{"startTime":1673.313,"endTime":1676.193,"body":"all the planets revolve around them."},{"startTime":1676.193,"endTime":1677.843,"body":"They burn a lot of"},{"startTime":1676.193,"endTime":1677.843,"body":"people, that's for sure."},{"startTime":1677.933,"endTime":1678.263,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1678.443,"endTime":1678.623,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1678.673,"endTime":1682.784,"body":"and then my last point is that an"},{"startTime":1678.673,"endTime":1682.784,"body":"outcome based roadmap is better for the"},{"startTime":1682.784,"endTime":1686.744,"body":"stakeholders, all of the stakeholders"},{"startTime":1682.784,"endTime":1686.744,"body":"involved because if the team is going"},{"startTime":1686.749,"endTime":1690.764,"body":"deep on whatever the top business priority"},{"startTime":1686.749,"endTime":1690.764,"body":"is, if the top business priority is"},{"startTime":1690.764,"endTime":1695.279,"body":"serving stakeholders, Users, customers,"},{"startTime":1690.764,"endTime":1695.279,"body":"whate, whoever that stakeholder is"},{"startTime":1695.499,"endTime":1697.059,"body":"could be internal developers, whatever."},{"startTime":1697.059,"endTime":1700.109,"body":"It could be anyone then they know that"},{"startTime":1697.059,"endTime":1700.109,"body":"they're gonna get the full focus of"},{"startTime":1700.109,"endTime":1703.649,"body":"the business and they're gonna get"},{"startTime":1700.109,"endTime":1703.649,"body":"the, the, the results that come with"},{"startTime":1704.039,"endTime":1706.349,"body":"being the full focus of the business."},{"startTime":1706.469,"endTime":1709.479,"body":"I don't really think you get that"},{"startTime":1706.469,"endTime":1709.479,"body":"when you're trying to you, you're just"},{"startTime":1709.479,"endTime":1712.569,"body":"trying to look busy and you have 87"},{"startTime":1709.479,"endTime":1712.569,"body":"priorities in the air and you're just"},{"startTime":1712.569,"endTime":1714.369,"body":"saying, look at all my priorities."},{"startTime":1714.374,"endTime":1715.329,"body":"Don't I look busy?"},{"startTime":1715.569,"endTime":1716.709,"body":"No, no."},{"startTime":1716.739,"endTime":1717.339,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1717.339,"endTime":1718.299,"body":"I concur with that."},{"startTime":1718.299,"endTime":1718.539,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1718.599,"endTime":1722.139,"body":"People that are in that mode of"},{"startTime":1718.599,"endTime":1722.139,"body":"working where they've got all"},{"startTime":1722.139,"endTime":1725.409,"body":"these balls in the air and they're"},{"startTime":1722.139,"endTime":1725.409,"body":"trying to catch 'em and the."},{"startTime":1726.234,"endTime":1729.334,"body":"The focus there tends to"},{"startTime":1726.234,"endTime":1729.334,"body":"be, utilization, right?"},{"startTime":1729.604,"endTime":1731.164,"body":"Keep busy utilization, right?"},{"startTime":1731.164,"endTime":1731.165,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1731.17,"endTime":1731.764,"body":"Keep busy."},{"startTime":1731.854,"endTime":1732.304,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":1732.574,"endTime":1732.724,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1732.724,"endTime":1737.134,"body":"You know, and, and then how you're"},{"startTime":1732.724,"endTime":1737.134,"body":"measured is on your efficiency, right?"},{"startTime":1737.284,"endTime":1737.554,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1737.584,"endTime":1739.474,"body":"Not on your effectiveness."},{"startTime":1739.504,"endTime":1739.714,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1739.714,"endTime":1742.499,"body":"I like where you're going with this"},{"startTime":1739.714,"endTime":1742.499,"body":"one because I could only imagine"},{"startTime":1742.549,"endTime":1746.369,"body":"like it was my birthday, at Brian"},{"startTime":1742.549,"endTime":1746.369,"body":"and Oman's development company and"},{"startTime":1746.429,"endTime":1748.769,"body":"om gave me a a thousand dollars bill."},{"startTime":1748.769,"endTime":1750.269,"body":"I gotta go put it in the bank."},{"startTime":1750.449,"endTime":1750.659,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":1750.689,"endTime":1752.489,"body":"Cause I've never seen a"},{"startTime":1750.689,"endTime":1752.489,"body":"thousand dollars bill before."},{"startTime":1752.549,"endTime":1756.569,"body":"And I walk into the bank and"},{"startTime":1752.549,"endTime":1756.569,"body":"I like, I'm so impressed that."},{"startTime":1756.884,"endTime":1763.904,"body":"Every teller is exactly 95.6% utilized,"},{"startTime":1756.884,"endTime":1763.904,"body":"and everybody working in the back"},{"startTime":1763.904,"endTime":1769.454,"body":"office doesn't spend more than 25"},{"startTime":1763.904,"endTime":1769.454,"body":"minutes a day on breaks or whatever."},{"startTime":1769.454,"endTime":1773.064,"body":"And they're exactly u like I"},{"startTime":1769.454,"endTime":1773.064,"body":"as a customer don't get that."},{"startTime":1773.414,"endTime":1777.854,"body":"I could I can't think of, I can't think of"},{"startTime":1773.414,"endTime":1777.854,"body":"anything that I care about less than that."},{"startTime":1777.859,"endTime":1780.554,"body":"I, I, I think about"},{"startTime":1777.859,"endTime":1780.554,"body":"like, is the lobby clean?"},{"startTime":1780.864,"endTime":1783.894,"body":"Is there somewhere to get like a"},{"startTime":1780.864,"endTime":1783.894,"body":"coffee if I have to wait a long time?"},{"startTime":1783.984,"endTime":1787.869,"body":"Like there are so many petty"},{"startTime":1783.984,"endTime":1787.869,"body":"little tiny things that I think of."},{"startTime":1787.869,"endTime":1791.629,"body":"So if you're saying them being, fully"},{"startTime":1787.869,"endTime":1791.629,"body":"utilized doesn't really do anything for"},{"startTime":1791.629,"endTime":1797.109,"body":"your experience, I would say if I walked"},{"startTime":1791.629,"endTime":1797.109,"body":"up and the teller was, shuffling papers"},{"startTime":1797.109,"endTime":1800.139,"body":"because she had a paper shuffling quota"},{"startTime":1797.109,"endTime":1800.139,"body":"or something like that, like mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1800.369,"endTime":1804.069,"body":"That, that would be an example"},{"startTime":1800.369,"endTime":1804.069,"body":"of utilization that is in"},{"startTime":1804.069,"endTime":1808.494,"body":"opposition to serving me the main"},{"startTime":1804.069,"endTime":1808.494,"body":"stakeholder of the whole branch."},{"startTime":1808.734,"endTime":1811.549,"body":"And, uh as soon as I complain about"},{"startTime":1808.734,"endTime":1811.549,"body":"it, of course everyone's gonna freak"},{"startTime":1811.549,"endTime":1813.139,"body":"out and stop what they're doing."},{"startTime":1813.139,"endTime":1813.319,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1813.319,"endTime":1816.249,"body":"And then all the numbers don't"},{"startTime":1813.319,"endTime":1816.249,"body":"matter anymore, but in an outcome"},{"startTime":1816.254,"endTime":1819.045,"body":"based roadmap, the numbers are"},{"startTime":1816.254,"endTime":1819.045,"body":"the only thing that matters."},{"startTime":1819.694,"endTime":1823.524,"body":"And if you're bringing customers"},{"startTime":1819.694,"endTime":1823.524,"body":"in, if you go back to the, previous"},{"startTime":1823.524,"endTime":1825.414,"body":"podcast that we did for Clint,"},{"startTime":1823.524,"endTime":1825.414,"body":"what were we talking about?"},{"startTime":1825.644,"endTime":1826.454,"body":"the numbers."},{"startTime":1826.814,"endTime":1831.284,"body":"If the numbers are the only thing"},{"startTime":1826.814,"endTime":1831.284,"body":"that matters, like what does it"},{"startTime":1831.284,"endTime":1835.184,"body":"matter what, how many cogs my team"},{"startTime":1831.284,"endTime":1835.184,"body":"punched out, or how many stories"},{"startTime":1835.184,"endTime":1836.324,"body":"my team put through, or whatever."},{"startTime":1836.374,"endTime":1839.049,"body":"The value that the customer gets"},{"startTime":1836.374,"endTime":1839.049,"body":"outta coming into branches within"},{"startTime":1839.049,"endTime":1842.889,"body":"five minutes of walking in the branch,"},{"startTime":1839.049,"endTime":1842.889,"body":"all your, all your problems are gone."},{"startTime":1844.119,"endTime":1849.519,"body":"In fact, when you walk into a branch, you"},{"startTime":1844.119,"endTime":1849.519,"body":"are probably gonna spend more time just"},{"startTime":1849.519,"endTime":1852.759,"body":"talking about your day and just getting"},{"startTime":1849.519,"endTime":1852.759,"body":"to know the people who work in the branch"},{"startTime":1852.759,"endTime":1855.219,"body":"than you are actually doing business"},{"startTime":1852.759,"endTime":1855.219,"body":"and conducting business and get it done."},{"startTime":1855.399,"endTime":1859.149,"body":"You're gonna stick around longer than five"},{"startTime":1855.399,"endTime":1859.149,"body":"minutes just because you like being there."},{"startTime":1859.599,"endTime":1861.549,"body":"That's, that would be the"},{"startTime":1859.599,"endTime":1861.549,"body":"customer experience I would"},{"startTime":1861.549,"endTime":1863.079,"body":"shoot for yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1863.079,"endTime":1865.929,"body":"So one last thing on the"},{"startTime":1863.079,"endTime":1865.929,"body":"utilization thing, look."},{"startTime":1866.814,"endTime":1872.794,"body":"If we measured our, firemen by"},{"startTime":1866.814,"endTime":1872.794,"body":"percent of time that they're"},{"startTime":1872.794,"endTime":1876.304,"body":"utilized, we'd have to set the"},{"startTime":1872.794,"endTime":1876.304,"body":"city on fire all the freaking time."},{"startTime":1876.814,"endTime":1877.324,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1878.224,"endTime":1879.964,"body":"Hey, they're busy putting out fires."},{"startTime":1880.264,"endTime":1882.369,"body":"Oh, what do you mean there's not"},{"startTime":1880.264,"endTime":1882.369,"body":"enough fires for the put out Light?"},{"startTime":1882.394,"endTime":1883.324,"body":"Some more light."},{"startTime":1883.324,"endTime":1884.074,"body":"Light, some more fires."},{"startTime":1884.074,"endTime":1884.284,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1884.289,"endTime":1886.264,"body":"Tell the firemen to light some fires."},{"startTime":1886.401,"endTime":1886.641,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":1886.701,"endTime":1887.991,"body":"Why are they called firemen?"},{"startTime":1887.991,"endTime":1889.731,"body":"Om, if they're not lighting fires"},{"startTime":1889.731,"endTime":1894.051,"body":"So, this podcast we've talked about, why"},{"startTime":1889.731,"endTime":1894.051,"body":"I hate anything other than outcome-based"},{"startTime":1894.051,"endTime":1898.296,"body":"roadmaps, and we've kind of argued back"},{"startTime":1894.051,"endTime":1898.296,"body":"and forth, hopefully, this has kind of"},{"startTime":1898.536,"endTime":1901.416,"body":"helped you and armed you and, , brought"},{"startTime":1898.536,"endTime":1901.416,"body":"you a little awareness of bringing"},{"startTime":1901.416,"endTime":1904.511,"body":"back to your companies, to push back"},{"startTime":1901.416,"endTime":1904.511,"body":"against Gantt charts that they call"},{"startTime":1904.511,"endTime":1908.651,"body":"feature based roadmaps or project"},{"startTime":1904.511,"endTime":1908.651,"body":"based roadmaps or, yeah, hopefully"},{"startTime":1908.651,"endTime":1911.891,"body":"now you'll have an allergic reaction"},{"startTime":1908.651,"endTime":1911.891,"body":"next time you see dates on a roadmap."},{"startTime":1911.921,"endTime":1912.221,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1912.307,"endTime":1915.947,"body":"Hopefully you will also have the same"},{"startTime":1912.307,"endTime":1915.947,"body":"reaction that I have, when you see"},{"startTime":1915.947,"endTime":1922.696,"body":"roadmaps like this and you can say, oh, I"},{"startTime":1915.947,"endTime":1922.696,"body":"love working on feature based r oadmaps."},{"startTime":1922.696,"endTime":1923.275,"body":"Well, that's it."},{"startTime":1923.275,"endTime":1927.655,"body":"That's a wrap thank you everybody for"},{"startTime":1923.275,"endTime":1927.655,"body":"staying with us and yeah and subscribe."},{"startTime":1927.66,"endTime":1928.255,"body":"Let us know."},{"startTime":1928.375,"endTime":1928.675,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":1928.675,"endTime":1930.745,"body":"What topics you would"},{"startTime":1928.675,"endTime":1930.745,"body":"like us to tackle next?"},{"startTime":1930.845,"endTime":1932.115,"body":"Go to ArguingAgile.com."},{"startTime":1932.135,"endTime":1932.945,"body":"Fill out the form."},{"startTime":1932.945,"endTime":1935.255,"body":"You can even leave us a"},{"startTime":1932.945,"endTime":1935.255,"body":"little voice memo there."},{"startTime":1935.285,"endTime":1935.645,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1935.645,"endTime":1936.905,"body":"And we'll respond accordingly."}]}