{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.257,"body":"So we've created a couple avenues for"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.257,"body":"people to ask us questions on the podcast"},{"startTime":4.352,"endTime":7.788,"body":"so if you want to ask us questions on"},{"startTime":4.352,"endTime":7.788,"body":"the podcast, go to the website, fill out"},{"startTime":7.788,"endTime":10.416,"body":"the form, or leave us a voice message."},{"startTime":11.038,"endTime":14.323,"body":"And  we will play it on the podcast like"},{"startTime":11.038,"endTime":14.323,"body":"the nice thing about a voice message."},{"startTime":14.323,"endTime":15.18,"body":"We can play it on the podcast."},{"startTime":15.18,"endTime":16.904,"body":"Yeah, so go to ArguingAgile.com."},{"startTime":16.923,"endTime":18.323,"body":"That's where you'll find that form."},{"startTime":18.323,"endTime":19.152,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":19.219,"endTime":20.742,"body":"ArguingAgile.com."},{"startTime":20.978,"endTime":23.173,"body":"this podcast, we are gonna"},{"startTime":20.978,"endTime":23.173,"body":"talk about a subject."},{"startTime":23.459,"endTime":24.963,"body":"That Clint suggested."},{"startTime":24.965,"endTime":30.616,"body":"Going from a team Who estimates to being a"},{"startTime":24.965,"endTime":30.616,"body":"team that doesn't have to estimate at all?"},{"startTime":30.75,"endTime":32.179,"body":"So Clint, this is your podcast."},{"startTime":32.179,"endTime":38.484,"body":"If you're listening, and his question"},{"startTime":32.179,"endTime":38.484,"body":"was on the topic of story points and"},{"startTime":38.541,"endTime":44.66,"body":"throughput, aka cycle time, lead time, but"},{"startTime":38.541,"endTime":44.66,"body":"in Agile Podcast 50, we did the whole hour"},{"startTime":44.66,"endTime":49.66,"body":"long podcast, just on estimation why you"},{"startTime":44.66,"endTime":49.66,"body":"estimate different types of estimation."},{"startTime":49.86,"endTime":53.312,"body":"So I'm going to only try to"},{"startTime":49.86,"endTime":53.312,"body":"rehash as much of that as I"},{"startTime":53.312,"endTime":56.284,"body":"absolutely have to on this podcast."},{"startTime":56.569,"endTime":58.684,"body":"But, we did a whole hour long podcast."},{"startTime":59.084,"endTime":61.141,"body":"A deep dive in the different"},{"startTime":59.084,"endTime":61.141,"body":"ways of estimation."},{"startTime":61.141,"endTime":61.198,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":61.398,"endTime":64.969,"body":"So we're not gonna touch that, but"},{"startTime":61.398,"endTime":64.969,"body":"we are gonna handle, Clint, we're"},{"startTime":64.974,"endTime":67.645,"body":"gonna handle the spirit of your topic"},{"startTime":64.974,"endTime":67.645,"body":"rather than the letter of your topic."},{"startTime":68.16,"endTime":69.331,"body":"all right, so let's, let's start."},{"startTime":69.388,"endTime":70.474,"body":"What did Clint say?"},{"startTime":70.547,"endTime":74.756,"body":"So he says, Have you guys covered story"},{"startTime":70.547,"endTime":74.756,"body":"points versus cycle time as a topic yet?"},{"startTime":74.756,"endTime":76.385,"body":"I think a lot of people"},{"startTime":74.756,"endTime":76.385,"body":"could benefit from that."},{"startTime":76.642,"endTime":80.635,"body":"So, so Clint is using story points"},{"startTime":76.642,"endTime":80.635,"body":"currently and I said cycle time, but"},{"startTime":80.635,"endTime":83.464,"body":"I, what, what I believe, Clint, what"},{"startTime":80.635,"endTime":83.464,"body":"I believe you mean is throughput."},{"startTime":84.007,"endTime":87.807,"body":"Like regardless of the, the actual"},{"startTime":84.007,"endTime":87.807,"body":"metric of cycle time and or lead time"},{"startTime":88.512,"endTime":90.293,"body":"I don't think in our, in Agile podcast 50."},{"startTime":90.95,"endTime":94.169,"body":"I don't think we talked about  cycle"},{"startTime":90.95,"endTime":94.169,"body":"time, lead time in terms of the,"},{"startTime":94.283,"endTime":96.14,"body":"the wait time involved, right."},{"startTime":96.169,"endTime":98.74,"body":"And the time of delay being"},{"startTime":96.169,"endTime":98.74,"body":"calculated and stuff like that."},{"startTime":98.74,"endTime":98.797,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":98.797,"endTime":102.502,"body":"That's a little bit deeper than what I"},{"startTime":98.797,"endTime":102.502,"body":"think we got into in, in, in episode 50."},{"startTime":102.507,"endTime":102.702,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":102.702,"endTime":103.645,"body":"I suspect that's true."},{"startTime":103.65,"endTime":104.597,"body":"But, but again, this."},{"startTime":104.831,"endTime":109.162,"body":"The spirit of, his question is, the"},{"startTime":104.831,"endTime":109.162,"body":"team  kind of struggles with estimates."},{"startTime":109.162,"endTime":109.933,"body":"They're doing story points."},{"startTime":109.933,"endTime":110.848,"body":"They're doing the best they can."},{"startTime":111.391,"endTime":114.276,"body":"Now how do we evolve the team to"},{"startTime":111.391,"endTime":114.276,"body":"get to a point where they don't"},{"startTime":114.276,"endTime":115.648,"body":"even bother with estimates anymore"},{"startTime":115.732,"endTime":119.604,"body":"yeah, that's a fantastic, topic"},{"startTime":115.732,"endTime":119.604,"body":"because I, I feel like n people don't"},{"startTime":119.718,"endTime":120.862,"body":"really address that sort of thing."},{"startTime":120.867,"endTime":124.509,"body":"They get into the, You know, the"},{"startTime":120.867,"endTime":124.509,"body":"mechanics of estimation and things like"},{"startTime":124.509,"endTime":129.623,"body":"that, but nobody talks about bringing"},{"startTime":124.509,"endTime":129.623,"body":"a team through a level of maturity"},{"startTime":129.623,"endTime":130.966,"body":"where they don't have to estimate."},{"startTime":130.966,"endTime":131.28,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":131.28,"endTime":131.281,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":131.451,"endTime":133.651,"body":"Starting for a spot where"},{"startTime":131.451,"endTime":133.651,"body":"they, where they do."},{"startTime":133.651,"endTime":133.652,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":133.966,"endTime":136.823,"body":"If you are on a team that is"},{"startTime":133.966,"endTime":136.823,"body":"estimating and you need help with"},{"startTime":136.823,"endTime":141.18,"body":"that, check out arguing Agile Podcast"},{"startTime":136.823,"endTime":141.18,"body":"number 50 is all of our estimation,"},{"startTime":141.247,"endTime":142.332,"body":"maybe we'll put a link below."},{"startTime":142.456,"endTime":145.313,"body":"We, we'll def I'll, I'll even throw"},{"startTime":142.456,"endTime":145.313,"body":"the card up on the screen for this one."},{"startTime":145.361,"endTime":147.647,"body":"This is gonna be a little bit different"},{"startTime":145.361,"endTime":147.647,"body":"than our normal, like this is not"},{"startTime":147.647,"endTime":150.647,"body":"gonna be like debate style podcast"},{"startTime":147.647,"endTime":150.647,"body":"where we're trying to do pros and cons."},{"startTime":150.875,"endTime":154.732,"body":"We're just trying to give you different"},{"startTime":150.875,"endTime":154.732,"body":"strategies in this podcast to help you."},{"startTime":154.78,"endTime":156.151,"body":"Maybe you can apply these strategies."},{"startTime":156.466,"endTime":157.666,"body":"Maybe you can apply one."},{"startTime":157.809,"endTime":160.38,"body":"Maybe you can apply multiple,"},{"startTime":157.809,"endTime":160.38,"body":"maybe you can apply all of them."},{"startTime":160.38,"endTime":162.751,"body":"But when you apply them and"},{"startTime":160.38,"endTime":162.751,"body":"you see them being successful,"},{"startTime":162.923,"endTime":164.523,"body":"you are further along the path."},{"startTime":164.889,"endTime":167.918,"body":"To toward moving from a team that"},{"startTime":164.889,"endTime":167.918,"body":"estimates to a team that doesn't"},{"startTime":167.918,"endTime":169.089,"body":"have to, right, that's right."},{"startTime":169.185,"endTime":170.356,"body":"Kind of struggles with estimates."},{"startTime":170.356,"endTime":171.128,"body":"They're doing story points."},{"startTime":171.128,"endTime":172.042,"body":"They're doing the best they can."},{"startTime":172.585,"endTime":175.47,"body":"Now how do we evolve the team to"},{"startTime":172.585,"endTime":175.47,"body":"get to a point where they don't"},{"startTime":175.47,"endTime":176.842,"body":"even bother with estimates anymore"},{"startTime":176.909,"endTime":178.137,"body":"If you think about it from a lean."},{"startTime":178.351,"endTime":182.037,"body":"Standpoint, anything you're doing"},{"startTime":178.351,"endTime":182.037,"body":"that's not adding value is a waste."},{"startTime":182.094,"endTime":182.18,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":182.409,"endTime":185.923,"body":"An estimation for the sake"},{"startTime":182.409,"endTime":185.923,"body":"of estimation is a waste."},{"startTime":185.923,"endTime":187.466,"body":"Now, I, I get why people do it."},{"startTime":187.513,"endTime":189.713,"body":"It's a plethora of reasons."},{"startTime":189.713,"endTime":193.247,"body":"It's being asked off them, they"},{"startTime":189.713,"endTime":193.247,"body":"hide under the the guise of"},{"startTime":193.247,"endTime":194.628,"body":"wanting predictability, et cetera."},{"startTime":195.456,"endTime":198.961,"body":"so if you got a team that is doing"},{"startTime":195.456,"endTime":198.961,"body":"estimation, Talk about this with"},{"startTime":198.961,"endTime":201.761,"body":"your team and figure out, you"},{"startTime":198.961,"endTime":201.761,"body":"know, why are they estimating?"},{"startTime":201.761,"endTime":202.704,"body":"What are they trying to solve?"},{"startTime":202.732,"endTime":202.961,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":203.009,"endTime":207.675,"body":"Anybody that picks up this podcast,"},{"startTime":203.009,"endTime":207.675,"body":"like their team probably is estimating"},{"startTime":207.923,"endTime":209.18,"body":"and they probably are like, whoa, what?"},{"startTime":209.18,"endTime":211.066,"body":"What do you mean without estimating?"},{"startTime":211.323,"endTime":213.38,"body":"Like why are they estimating the."},{"startTime":213.389,"endTime":213.818,"body":"First place."},{"startTime":213.818,"endTime":214.847,"body":"Let, let's start there."},{"startTime":214.894,"endTime":219.237,"body":"Product manager, bringing my product"},{"startTime":214.894,"endTime":219.237,"body":"management needs to this discussion,"},{"startTime":219.494,"endTime":221.294,"body":"I need to be able to forecast."},{"startTime":221.666,"endTime":224.666,"body":"So that, that would be the"},{"startTime":221.666,"endTime":224.666,"body":"first thing that my brain"},{"startTime":224.666,"endTime":226.523,"body":"goes to is I need a forecast."},{"startTime":227.294,"endTime":227.494,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":227.494,"endTime":231.78,"body":"And that forecasting ask is you"},{"startTime":227.494,"endTime":231.78,"body":"know, not only from a product"},{"startTime":231.78,"endTime":233.237,"body":"standpoint, I've seen it from the."},{"startTime":233.297,"endTime":237.697,"body":"PMO standpoint too, because they're"},{"startTime":233.297,"endTime":237.697,"body":"used to handing down mandates in the"},{"startTime":237.697,"endTime":242.002,"body":"form of prescribed Gantt charts and"},{"startTime":237.697,"endTime":242.002,"body":"do this by the state type of thing."},{"startTime":242.374,"endTime":245.488,"body":"So when the team start estimating"},{"startTime":242.374,"endTime":245.488,"body":"at the sprint level mm-hmm."},{"startTime":245.716,"endTime":248.407,"body":"People wanna know, you know, does"},{"startTime":245.716,"endTime":248.407,"body":"all this stuff fit in with my"},{"startTime":248.493,"endTime":251.493,"body":"milestones that are on my ga chart"},{"startTime":248.493,"endTime":251.493,"body":"that I fabricated out of thin air."},{"startTime":251.493,"endTime":255.312,"body":"Yeah so teams estimate for a"},{"startTime":251.493,"endTime":255.312,"body":"plethora of different reasons, right?"},{"startTime":255.312,"endTime":258.002,"body":"We, I That's true predictability is one."},{"startTime":258.259,"endTime":261.002,"body":"We're not saying that you can't"},{"startTime":258.259,"endTime":261.002,"body":"get predictability if you're"},{"startTime":261.002,"endTime":262.107,"body":"not using story points, though."},{"startTime":262.278,"endTime":264.221,"body":"That is just a way to do that."},{"startTime":264.564,"endTime":267.545,"body":"Well, I mean, you could"},{"startTime":264.564,"endTime":267.545,"body":"estimate in hours for Yeah."},{"startTime":267.545,"endTime":268.393,"body":"Could nothing wrong with that."},{"startTime":268.393,"endTime":271.478,"body":"It's just as good as any other, or"},{"startTime":268.393,"endTime":271.478,"body":"as bad as any other way of doing it."},{"startTime":271.859,"endTime":276.783,"body":"What it comes down to is, People"},{"startTime":271.859,"endTime":276.783,"body":"looking for accuracy or precision"},{"startTime":276.84,"endTime":278.04,"body":"rather, you know, in estimates."},{"startTime":278.04,"endTime":279.926,"body":"Cuz the word itself tells you what it is."},{"startTime":279.926,"endTime":280.555,"body":"It's an estimate."},{"startTime":280.84,"endTime":280.955,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":281.012,"endTime":286.326,"body":"Which is really just a, a best"},{"startTime":281.012,"endTime":286.326,"body":"effort guess as to when the team"},{"startTime":286.326,"endTime":287.527,"body":"might get something done by."},{"startTime":287.532,"endTime":290.959,"body":"Mm-hmm so by definition it is"},{"startTime":287.532,"endTime":290.959,"body":"not a guarantee but I don't"},{"startTime":290.959,"endTime":292.359,"body":"wanna go down that path too much."},{"startTime":292.407,"endTime":298.035,"body":"Another reason that teams estimate is"},{"startTime":292.407,"endTime":298.035,"body":"the act of going through the estimation"},{"startTime":298.035,"endTime":302.893,"body":"where, you know, we say, Hey, we"},{"startTime":298.035,"endTime":302.893,"body":"need to add a form to the website."},{"startTime":303.131,"endTime":306.902,"body":"And you know, Brian and Om both hold"},{"startTime":303.131,"endTime":306.902,"body":"up cards at the same time, and Brian's"},{"startTime":306.902,"endTime":308.645,"body":"holding a three and Om's holding a 13."},{"startTime":308.674,"endTime":315.112,"body":"The actual act of estimating helps"},{"startTime":308.674,"endTime":315.112,"body":"facilitate the conversation where we talk"},{"startTime":315.112,"endTime":320.169,"body":"through and agree on what is in and what"},{"startTime":315.112,"endTime":320.169,"body":"is out of the work items and, you know"},{"startTime":320.169,"endTime":323.912,"body":"what I mean, where, whereas otherwise,"},{"startTime":320.169,"endTime":323.912,"body":"if one developer just picked it up and"},{"startTime":323.912,"endTime":325.569,"body":"said, well, I got this, don't worry."},{"startTime":325.797,"endTime":327.055,"body":"Like, I'll, I'll pick up the next."},{"startTime":327.512,"endTime":329.769,"body":"Order off the line, you know,"},{"startTime":327.512,"endTime":329.769,"body":"I'll pick up the next ticket"},{"startTime":329.769,"endTime":330.826,"body":"for a cheeseburger or whatever."},{"startTime":330.826,"endTime":334.569,"body":"Like if we did that, like I might cook"},{"startTime":330.826,"endTime":334.569,"body":"you a really elaborate cheeseburger"},{"startTime":334.569,"endTime":336.969,"body":"when all you want is completely plain."},{"startTime":336.969,"endTime":338.597,"body":"No ketchup, no nothing."},{"startTime":338.602,"endTime":338.864,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":339.14,"endTime":340.826,"body":"Not even any cheese cheeseburger."},{"startTime":340.912,"endTime":341.426,"body":"Yeah, I don't."},{"startTime":341.683,"endTime":342.512,"body":"Cheese less cheeseburger."},{"startTime":342.512,"endTime":342.74,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":342.769,"endTime":344.826,"body":"No, this is, this is where"},{"startTime":342.769,"endTime":344.826,"body":"you end up with cheeseburger."},{"startTime":344.94,"endTime":345.197,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":345.202,"endTime":345.759,"body":"This, yeah."},{"startTime":345.759,"endTime":348.812,"body":"This is where you end up with team"},{"startTime":345.759,"endTime":348.812,"body":"members saying, You know, I'm working"},{"startTime":348.812,"endTime":352.278,"body":"on this right, pretty much every"},{"startTime":348.812,"endTime":352.278,"body":"day at your daily standups so yeah,"},{"startTime":352.278,"endTime":356.764,"body":"that's, that's very true that the act"},{"startTime":352.278,"endTime":356.764,"body":"itself lets you reduce the, the cone"},{"startTime":356.764,"endTime":358.335,"body":"of uncertainty to a certain degree."},{"startTime":358.335,"endTime":359.907,"body":"At least have a dialogue around it."},{"startTime":360.25,"endTime":362.45,"body":"So there is that benefit right to that."},{"startTime":362.793,"endTime":364.174,"body":"But there are alternatives too, right?"},{"startTime":364.174,"endTime":364.44,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":364.793,"endTime":364.965,"body":"To that"},{"startTime":365.345,"endTime":369.802,"body":"so for example, what would happen"},{"startTime":365.345,"endTime":369.802,"body":"if your stories were so small?"},{"startTime":370.302,"endTime":373.331,"body":"That the team could understand"},{"startTime":370.302,"endTime":373.331,"body":"what needed to be done."},{"startTime":373.616,"endTime":377.388,"body":"There's only one thing that, that exists"},{"startTime":373.616,"endTime":377.388,"body":"in the story as the description for it."},{"startTime":377.702,"endTime":381.521,"body":"There's only one thing that defines"},{"startTime":377.702,"endTime":381.521,"body":"what the definition is for finishing it,"},{"startTime":381.521,"endTime":383.607,"body":"which is the ac, the acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":383.612,"endTime":383.712,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":384.121,"endTime":384.207,"body":"And that's it."},{"startTime":384.207,"endTime":384.474,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":384.555,"endTime":385.321,"body":"Just, just one."},{"startTime":385.512,"endTime":385.845,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":386.521,"endTime":390.831,"body":"Then ev, if every story was like,"},{"startTime":386.521,"endTime":390.831,"body":"That your stories are so small"},{"startTime":391.316,"endTime":395.574,"body":"that if you estimate them, they're"},{"startTime":391.316,"endTime":395.574,"body":"likely not gonna diverge too much."},{"startTime":395.574,"endTime":399.516,"body":"It's, it'll grow from one to"},{"startTime":395.574,"endTime":399.516,"body":"three, maybe a five, occasionally."},{"startTime":399.574,"endTime":399.945,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":400.174,"endTime":403.402,"body":"And then you keep talking about that"},{"startTime":400.174,"endTime":403.402,"body":"and reduce it down even further."},{"startTime":403.407,"endTime":404.516,"body":"So it comes down to a three."},{"startTime":404.521,"endTime":404.574,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":404.888,"endTime":405.745,"body":"So fast forward, right?"},{"startTime":406.031,"endTime":409.602,"body":"So most of your stories are"},{"startTime":406.031,"endTime":409.602,"body":"one to three point stories."},{"startTime":409.607,"endTime":414.707,"body":"Mm-hmm is there a, is there any"},{"startTime":409.607,"endTime":414.707,"body":"point unintended in estimating."},{"startTime":415.445,"endTime":418.388,"body":"All of those stories at that point,"},{"startTime":415.445,"endTime":418.388,"body":"if you get to that level I see."},{"startTime":418.388,"endTime":419.474,"body":"Of breaking down stories."},{"startTime":419.474,"endTime":419.761,"body":"I see, I see."},{"startTime":419.766,"endTime":421.988,"body":"So, so if you, if the whole team agrees."},{"startTime":422.259,"endTime":426.174,"body":"Like if you have a team agreement"},{"startTime":422.259,"endTime":426.174,"body":"that says if the story is considered"},{"startTime":426.174,"endTime":431.088,"body":"a one, two, or three in story"},{"startTime":426.174,"endTime":431.088,"body":"point size, we just call it three"},{"startTime":431.088,"endTime":432.288,"body":"and move along with our lives."},{"startTime":432.802,"endTime":434.916,"body":"Pick a number one or"},{"startTime":432.802,"endTime":434.916,"body":"three, nobody dies on."},{"startTime":434.921,"endTime":435.04,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":435.088,"endTime":435.259,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":435.259,"endTime":436.983,"body":"Because the difference between"},{"startTime":435.259,"endTime":436.983,"body":"them is so small, right?"},{"startTime":436.983,"endTime":437.174,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":437.202,"endTime":438.126,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":438.688,"endTime":440.069,"body":"I can see that is a,"},{"startTime":438.688,"endTime":440.069,"body":"that's a great first step."},{"startTime":440.374,"endTime":442.659,"body":"I gu I guess we're talking about"},{"startTime":440.374,"endTime":442.659,"body":"like w walking the walk now."},{"startTime":442.707,"endTime":447.478,"body":"So the, the first one that you recognize"},{"startTime":442.707,"endTime":447.478,"body":"is keep refining a work item until you get"},{"startTime":447.478,"endTime":449.135,"body":"into the range of a one, two, or three."},{"startTime":449.393,"endTime":453.326,"body":"The the other thing that I have told"},{"startTime":449.393,"endTime":453.326,"body":"my teens before is when you pick"},{"startTime":453.326,"endTime":457.097,"body":"up a work item, you need to look"},{"startTime":453.326,"endTime":457.097,"body":"at it from the perspective that it"},{"startTime":457.097,"endTime":460.612,"body":"can be done through whatever your"},{"startTime":457.097,"endTime":460.612,"body":"definition done, done, done, deploy"},{"startTime":460.812,"endTime":463.926,"body":"ion, done, completely done in two days."},{"startTime":464.612,"endTime":466.669,"body":"If you can't have that"},{"startTime":464.612,"endTime":466.669,"body":"item done in two days."},{"startTime":466.888,"endTime":470.659,"body":"We need to first of all identify"},{"startTime":466.888,"endTime":470.659,"body":"it clearly, identify this is not"},{"startTime":470.659,"endTime":473.716,"body":"possible in two days, and then"},{"startTime":470.659,"endTime":473.716,"body":"we'll talk about what can, what"},{"startTime":473.716,"endTime":476.145,"body":"pieces can be delivered in two days."},{"startTime":476.288,"endTime":479.374,"body":"And we'll break the, we'll break the"},{"startTime":476.288,"endTime":479.374,"body":"story up and we'll break it in pieces,"},{"startTime":479.378,"endTime":481.374,"body":"and then we'll decide what priorities and."},{"startTime":481.383,"endTime":481.869,"body":"Stuff like that."},{"startTime":482.097,"endTime":485.326,"body":"So that, that's another technique"},{"startTime":482.097,"endTime":485.326,"body":"I've used to, to, to help the team"},{"startTime":485.331,"endTime":486.726,"body":"understand how to break things down."},{"startTime":486.726,"endTime":488.469,"body":"I guess we're talking about"},{"startTime":486.726,"endTime":488.469,"body":"vertical slicing now, I guess."},{"startTime":488.474,"endTime":489.726,"body":"Well, we absolutely are."},{"startTime":489.731,"endTime":491.555,"body":"And, and yeah, that"},{"startTime":489.731,"endTime":491.555,"body":"technique is good as well."},{"startTime":491.559,"endTime":491.812,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":491.84,"endTime":495.012,"body":"Um, because if you're deploying"},{"startTime":491.84,"endTime":495.012,"body":"something into production or whatever"},{"startTime":495.016,"endTime":500.221,"body":"your DOD is, In two days, that's well"},{"startTime":495.016,"endTime":500.221,"body":"within a sprint, well within a sprint."},{"startTime":500.221,"endTime":504.45,"body":"So you can get things delivered"},{"startTime":500.221,"endTime":504.45,"body":"as value in, in production"},{"startTime":504.455,"endTime":505.983,"body":"environment so that's, that's good."},{"startTime":505.983,"endTime":509.902,"body":"I've seen this, this is credited to"},{"startTime":505.983,"endTime":509.902,"body":"Mike Miller who's watching obviously."},{"startTime":510.288,"endTime":510.374,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":510.545,"endTime":511.755,"body":"Good on you, Mike, everybody yeah."},{"startTime":511.755,"endTime":515.126,"body":"So he, he came up with this rule of thumb"},{"startTime":511.755,"endTime":515.126,"body":"that's before he gets the host, you know?"},{"startTime":515.355,"endTime":515.583,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":516.183,"endTime":517.812,"body":"One by, one by one equals one."},{"startTime":517.812,"endTime":521.183,"body":"So what he means is one by one,"},{"startTime":517.812,"endTime":521.183,"body":"one action, one actor, one result."},{"startTime":521.212,"endTime":521.526,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":521.612,"endTime":523.04,"body":"And that's one story."},{"startTime":523.297,"endTime":526.869,"body":"Anything more than the ones"},{"startTime":523.297,"endTime":526.869,"body":"in there, break it down more."},{"startTime":526.874,"endTime":526.897,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":527.259,"endTime":531.383,"body":"So yeah, through your refinement, try"},{"startTime":527.259,"endTime":531.383,"body":"and get to that point with your team"},{"startTime":531.388,"endTime":535.497,"body":"where everything is so small that the"},{"startTime":531.388,"endTime":535.497,"body":"team's not spending any time arguing over"},{"startTime":535.497,"endTime":536.84,"body":"whether it's a one or a two or a three."},{"startTime":537.34,"endTime":538.226,"body":"One action."},{"startTime":538.226,"endTime":539.283,"body":"One actor, one result."},{"startTime":539.283,"endTime":539.855,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":540.083,"endTime":541.197,"body":"One actor, one action."},{"startTime":541.197,"endTime":541.683,"body":"One result."},{"startTime":541.912,"endTime":542.483,"body":"One act."},{"startTime":542.683,"endTime":542.855,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":542.855,"endTime":544.369,"body":"One actor, one AC action."},{"startTime":544.369,"endTime":544.769,"body":"One result."},{"startTime":544.769,"endTime":545.883,"body":"It's hard to say that of."},{"startTime":546.226,"endTime":546.426,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":546.431,"endTime":547.455,"body":"You know, read it off the tongue."},{"startTime":547.54,"endTime":547.855,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":547.883,"endTime":549.083,"body":"But but it kind of made sense."},{"startTime":549.321,"endTime":552.594,"body":"He uses the example of accepting payment"},{"startTime":549.321,"endTime":552.594,"body":"by credit card, for example, right?"},{"startTime":552.598,"endTime":552.85,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":553.25,"endTime":556.935,"body":"That some teams start that off as a story,"},{"startTime":553.25,"endTime":556.935,"body":"and they have another story that says,"},{"startTime":556.935,"endTime":559.25,"body":"accept payment by ACH or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":559.25,"endTime":563.374,"body":"Yeah but his point is why do that"},{"startTime":559.25,"endTime":563.374,"body":"when you can break it down and"},{"startTime":563.378,"endTime":565.902,"body":"say, Except payment by Visa, right?"},{"startTime":565.902,"endTime":567.645,"body":"The first story is where"},{"startTime":565.902,"endTime":567.645,"body":"all the learning happens."},{"startTime":567.931,"endTime":569.502,"body":"So maybe that's a two or a three."},{"startTime":569.559,"endTime":569.645,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":569.874,"endTime":571.959,"body":"And then the next story,"},{"startTime":569.874,"endTime":571.959,"body":"except payment by MasterCard."},{"startTime":571.988,"endTime":574.388,"body":"What really changed from that"},{"startTime":571.988,"endTime":574.388,"body":"story to the previous one?"},{"startTime":574.645,"endTime":575.502,"body":"Just the algorithm."},{"startTime":575.502,"endTime":576.159,"body":"Just the, yeah."},{"startTime":576.245,"endTime":577.902,"body":"The check sum changed, right?"},{"startTime":577.902,"endTime":577.959,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":578.245,"endTime":581.76,"body":"So that makes sense to me because at"},{"startTime":578.245,"endTime":581.76,"body":"the end of the sprint, let's say you"},{"startTime":581.902,"endTime":586.702,"body":"didn't get all of the stories done to"},{"startTime":581.902,"endTime":586.702,"body":"accept payments by payment, by different"},{"startTime":586.702,"endTime":588.074,"body":"credit cards, but you got some done."},{"startTime":588.216,"endTime":588.416,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":588.502,"endTime":590.988,"body":"You could still go to production"},{"startTime":588.502,"endTime":590.988,"body":"and say, we accept Visa, MasterCard."},{"startTime":591.307,"endTime":594.335,"body":"Tackle, discover, or whatever else"},{"startTime":591.307,"endTime":594.335,"body":"you've got left in the next print."},{"startTime":594.478,"endTime":596.135,"body":"So you're delivering value at least."},{"startTime":596.14,"endTime":596.145,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":596.278,"endTime":598.993,"body":"So that made a lot of sense to me,"},{"startTime":596.278,"endTime":598.993,"body":"thinking about it that way as well."},{"startTime":599.135,"endTime":599.364,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":599.45,"endTime":601.793,"body":"I think all of these examples"},{"startTime":599.45,"endTime":601.793,"body":"come down to this only."},{"startTime":601.793,"endTime":602.05,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":602.278,"endTime":607.221,"body":"Break your stories down so that you"},{"startTime":602.278,"endTime":607.221,"body":"can deliver slices of value, but"},{"startTime":607.221,"endTime":608.793,"body":"don't do it horizontally, please."},{"startTime":609.535,"endTime":611.383,"body":"I you said some, oh no, look at me."},{"startTime":611.383,"endTime":612.269,"body":"I got a jacket on now."},{"startTime":612.269,"endTime":612.812,"body":"That's so weird."},{"startTime":612.812,"endTime":613.155,"body":"How'd that happen?"},{"startTime":613.231,"endTime":617.278,"body":"You said something in your example"},{"startTime":613.231,"endTime":617.278,"body":"about like the, the learning is kind"},{"startTime":617.278,"endTime":618.793,"body":"of front loaded with the first story."},{"startTime":619.164,"endTime":622.707,"body":"I want to challenge that because I,"},{"startTime":619.164,"endTime":622.707,"body":"something I've been doing with my teams."},{"startTime":623.002,"endTime":630.316,"body":"for a while now is I spend the learning"},{"startTime":623.002,"endTime":630.316,"body":"out on, into its own story and I will"},{"startTime":630.321,"endTime":634.602,"body":"tag the story where learning is done"},{"startTime":630.321,"endTime":634.602,"body":"appropriately to let the business"},{"startTime":634.607,"endTime":638.288,"body":"know that that time should go on the"},{"startTime":634.607,"endTime":638.288,"body":"budget wherever training and stuff"},{"startTime":638.288,"endTime":641.24,"body":"comes from, like that, that particular"},{"startTime":638.288,"endTime":641.24,"body":"budget because I'll mark things as"},{"startTime":641.24,"endTime":643.84,"body":"capabilities, basically, the team"},{"startTime":641.24,"endTime":643.84,"body":"has learned to do something that"},{"startTime":643.84,"endTime":645.24,"body":"they didn't know how to do before."},{"startTime":645.335,"endTime":648.135,"body":"Maybe it doesn't work for"},{"startTime":645.335,"endTime":648.135,"body":"credit, like credit card process."},{"startTime":648.135,"endTime":648.136,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":648.364,"endTime":652.269,"body":"Maybe it's better for like, you"},{"startTime":648.364,"endTime":652.269,"body":"know, deploy like deploy our software"},{"startTime":652.269,"endTime":655.669,"body":"via Kubernetes or whatever, when"},{"startTime":652.269,"endTime":655.669,"body":"like nobody on the team has any"},{"startTime":655.669,"endTime":657.859,"body":"exposure to Kubernetes, so they"},{"startTime":655.669,"endTime":657.859,"body":"have to go out and learn career."},{"startTime":658.069,"endTime":660.859,"body":"So the, like the story at that"},{"startTime":658.069,"endTime":660.859,"body":"point is like, Demonstrate to"},{"startTime":660.859,"endTime":663.745,"body":"the rest of the team how to use"},{"startTime":660.859,"endTime":663.745,"body":"Kubernetes, and that becomes a story."},{"startTime":664.088,"endTime":667.745,"body":"But I'm only doing that because"},{"startTime":664.088,"endTime":667.745,"body":"I need to deploy a, a, a product"},{"startTime":667.745,"endTime":669.174,"body":"that I'm ready to deploy."},{"startTime":669.431,"endTime":672.459,"body":"But I can't because my team doesn't"},{"startTime":669.431,"endTime":672.459,"body":"understand deployment technology."},{"startTime":672.602,"endTime":677.183,"body":"So I have to send, I have to set up"},{"startTime":672.602,"endTime":677.183,"body":"a story for them to spend some time"},{"startTime":677.583,"endTime":679.983,"body":"to figure out, hey how do I use this?"},{"startTime":680.259,"endTime":681.516,"body":"What's the best way to use it?"},{"startTime":681.545,"endTime":686.145,"body":"What's like I could bake all that into a"},{"startTime":681.545,"endTime":686.145,"body":"story and say, Hey listen, we're not gonna"},{"startTime":686.145,"endTime":687.345,"body":"have a separate story to learn things."},{"startTime":687.631,"endTime":689.659,"body":"Just go learn by doing it."},{"startTime":689.664,"endTime":691.716,"body":"And all that will be assumed in the story."},{"startTime":692.069,"endTime":697.24,"body":"However, like as you know, like"},{"startTime":692.069,"endTime":697.24,"body":"in like Scrum kind of assumes"},{"startTime":697.24,"endTime":701.193,"body":"that There is some familiar, if"},{"startTime":697.24,"endTime":701.193,"body":"you're doing relative estimation."},{"startTime":701.193,"endTime":703.164,"body":"Well, this is what we're,"},{"startTime":701.193,"endTime":703.164,"body":"we're gonna come back to one of"},{"startTime":703.164,"endTime":704.564,"body":"the main arguing points here."},{"startTime":704.735,"endTime":707.65,"body":"I know that wasn't gonna be the point"},{"startTime":704.735,"endTime":707.65,"body":"of this podcast, but to, to address"},{"startTime":707.65,"endTime":711.078,"body":"one of the main arguing points here,"},{"startTime":707.65,"endTime":711.078,"body":"which is, well, if we're doing tasks"},{"startTime":711.078,"endTime":713.564,"body":"that we've never done before, how"},{"startTime":711.078,"endTime":713.564,"body":"can you say they're all the same"},{"startTime":713.564,"endTime":714.697,"body":"size, we've never done them before."},{"startTime":715.488,"endTime":717.088,"body":"You don't have to handle"},{"startTime":715.488,"endTime":717.088,"body":"those in the methodology."},{"startTime":717.288,"endTime":722.574,"body":"You can timebox that effort to say,"},{"startTime":717.288,"endTime":722.574,"body":"Hey, take two days, three days, whatever"},{"startTime":722.574,"endTime":724.374,"body":"it is, the whole sprint if you want."},{"startTime":724.659,"endTime":729.488,"body":"You are not on the team doing work that's"},{"startTime":724.659,"endTime":729.488,"body":"counted against the team for the sprint."},{"startTime":730.288,"endTime":735.259,"body":"You are now on this task until you"},{"startTime":730.288,"endTime":735.259,"body":"figure out how to do it, right?"},{"startTime":735.259,"endTime":735.574,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":735.974,"endTime":736.288,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":736.402,"endTime":740.545,"body":"And, and, and, and so basically"},{"startTime":736.402,"endTime":740.545,"body":"you're either using a framework scrum"},{"startTime":740.545,"endTime":741.688,"body":"or kanban or whatever you wanna do."},{"startTime":741.931,"endTime":745.388,"body":"Or your timeboxing, well come on,"},{"startTime":741.931,"endTime":745.388,"body":"kind of as timeboxing a task, but,"},{"startTime":745.588,"endTime":748.445,"body":"or you're timeboxing the task and"},{"startTime":745.588,"endTime":748.445,"body":"saying, Hey, at the end of your"},{"startTime":748.445,"endTime":750.788,"body":"time box, come out of your time box."},{"startTime":751.155,"endTime":754.955,"body":"Come out of your hidey hole and share with"},{"startTime":751.155,"endTime":754.955,"body":"us what you've learned after that time."},{"startTime":754.955,"endTime":757.697,"body":"And if you've learned nothing,"},{"startTime":754.955,"endTime":757.697,"body":"you're like, Hey, I spent two days."},{"startTime":757.697,"endTime":759.183,"body":"I, I don't understand this."},{"startTime":759.188,"endTime":763.221,"body":"It's completely foreign to me well, maybe"},{"startTime":759.188,"endTime":763.221,"body":"that, I mean, maybe that's the trigger"},{"startTime":763.221,"endTime":765.221,"body":"of a bigger problem, but number one."},{"startTime":765.45,"endTime":768.659,"body":"But number two that's a way"},{"startTime":765.45,"endTime":768.659,"body":"to leverage what you're doing"},{"startTime":768.659,"endTime":771.659,"body":"now and deal with uncertainty."},{"startTime":772.002,"endTime":773.288,"body":"So keep predictability."},{"startTime":773.574,"endTime":777.716,"body":"Because they've not, if they're wasting"},{"startTime":773.574,"endTime":777.716,"body":"time on things that are too complicated to"},{"startTime":777.716,"endTime":779.574,"body":"figure out, we're never gonna do whatever."},{"startTime":779.578,"endTime":779.716,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":780.145,"endTime":781.888,"body":"Things that don't work out are good too."},{"startTime":781.945,"endTime":782.802,"body":"Hey, go learn."},{"startTime":782.831,"endTime":785.145,"body":"Go spend some time learning"},{"startTime":782.831,"endTime":785.145,"body":"this new technology."},{"startTime":785.659,"endTime":787.288,"body":"Hey, I learned this new technology."},{"startTime":787.602,"endTime":790.288,"body":"It's a flash in the pan and I"},{"startTime":787.602,"endTime":790.288,"body":"don't think that, I think this"},{"startTime":790.288,"endTime":792.088,"body":"total trash, we shouldn't use this."},{"startTime":792.088,"endTime":792.174,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":792.659,"endTime":796.174,"body":"Well, you spent two days at"},{"startTime":792.659,"endTime":796.174,"body":"least we didn't spend $2 million."},{"startTime":796.259,"endTime":796.945,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":796.945,"endTime":797.231,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":797.345,"endTime":801.46,"body":"No, I look, I agree with spike"},{"startTime":797.345,"endTime":801.46,"body":"stories or spike sprints even, right?"},{"startTime":801.465,"endTime":801.678,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":801.678,"endTime":802.183,"body":"Yeah, that's fine."},{"startTime":802.821,"endTime":806.231,"body":"I think that's a slightly different"},{"startTime":802.821,"endTime":806.231,"body":"case to the credit card cuz assuming the"},{"startTime":806.231,"endTime":808.231,"body":"team knows how to, you know, process."},{"startTime":808.235,"endTime":808.45,"body":"Credit card."},{"startTime":808.45,"endTime":808.716,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":808.716,"endTime":809.097,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":809.097,"endTime":810.488,"body":"But yeah, definitely agree with that."},{"startTime":810.488,"endTime":810.489,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":810.831,"endTime":813.593,"body":"But I do like where you"},{"startTime":810.831,"endTime":813.593,"body":"went with allocating that"},{"startTime":813.621,"endTime":815.65,"body":"story to a different budget."},{"startTime":815.65,"endTime":816.907,"body":"The learning budget, right?"},{"startTime":816.935,"endTime":817.021,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":817.202,"endTime":820.659,"body":"And I don't know if everybody has"},{"startTime":817.202,"endTime":820.659,"body":"that luxury, but that's really good"},{"startTime":820.945,"endTime":822.802,"body":"because it shows to the organization."},{"startTime":823.312,"endTime":826.312,"body":"You know, people don't know"},{"startTime":823.312,"endTime":826.312,"body":"this stuff that you want."},{"startTime":826.426,"endTime":827.597,"body":"You want 'em to do something."},{"startTime":827.597,"endTime":829.255,"body":"They're figuring it out as they go."},{"startTime":829.255,"endTime":833.435,"body":"Right and that's a good way, I"},{"startTime":829.255,"endTime":833.435,"body":"think, to illustrate the need"},{"startTime":833.607,"endTime":835.264,"body":"for learning and training."},{"startTime":835.293,"endTime":837.893,"body":"Well, if you don't have a learning"},{"startTime":835.293,"endTime":837.893,"body":"development budget, I guarantee"},{"startTime":837.897,"endTime":840.178,"body":"you there's another company out"},{"startTime":837.897,"endTime":840.178,"body":"there that does have a learning."},{"startTime":840.207,"endTime":840.864,"body":"I don't doubt it."},{"startTime":840.893,"endTime":841.093,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":841.321,"endTime":841.55,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":841.55,"endTime":844.464,"body":"So I mean like what are you doing"},{"startTime":841.55,"endTime":844.464,"body":"and what is your company doing?"},{"startTime":844.721,"endTime":846.921,"body":"What, first of all, what are you"},{"startTime":844.721,"endTime":846.921,"body":"doing with your life where you're"},{"startTime":846.921,"endTime":849.45,"body":"working for people that are like,"},{"startTime":846.921,"endTime":849.45,"body":"We don't have time to get better."},{"startTime":850.021,"endTime":850.878,"body":"Get back to work."},{"startTime":850.878,"endTime":851.164,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":852.364,"endTime":852.507,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":852.507,"endTime":855.221,"body":"Those are people that, first of"},{"startTime":852.507,"endTime":855.221,"body":"all, frown upon retrospectives,"},{"startTime":855.221,"endTime":856.078,"body":"don't waste your time."},{"startTime":856.164,"endTime":856.45,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":856.45,"endTime":857.793,"body":"Go code some more, you know?"},{"startTime":857.935,"endTime":861.507,"body":"And then second of all, if, if you do"},{"startTime":857.935,"endTime":861.507,"body":"have that budget, You probably have"},{"startTime":861.507,"endTime":864.945,"body":"a management that's saying like, is"},{"startTime":861.507,"endTime":864.945,"body":"this, is this a budget that, like we"},{"startTime":864.945,"endTime":868.174,"body":"run out in December and try to hurry"},{"startTime":864.945,"endTime":868.174,"body":"up and book people into trainings"},{"startTime":868.174,"endTime":869.688,"body":"because we're gonna lose the budget?"},{"startTime":869.688,"endTime":870.802,"body":"That's not a good look either."},{"startTime":871.002,"endTime":874.459,"body":"Like the, the better look is slowly"},{"startTime":871.002,"endTime":874.459,"body":"over the year you're training"},{"startTime":874.459,"endTime":877.545,"body":"your people or you're spending off"},{"startTime":874.459,"endTime":877.545,"body":"time with to, for your people to"},{"startTime":877.545,"endTime":879.231,"body":"learn, for your people to evolve."},{"startTime":879.293,"endTime":881.864,"body":"So some of that stuff is done in"},{"startTime":879.293,"endTime":881.864,"body":"community of practice type events or"},{"startTime":881.864,"endTime":883.959,"body":"like developer kind of hackathons."},{"startTime":884.016,"endTime":884.302,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":884.302,"endTime":884.902,"body":"Code, code."},{"startTime":884.95,"endTime":887.207,"body":"Dojos or whatever, whatever,"},{"startTime":884.95,"endTime":887.207,"body":"whatever you wanna call it, right?"},{"startTime":887.302,"endTime":891.721,"body":"but listen, some of that work"},{"startTime":887.302,"endTime":891.721,"body":"it's in pursuit of product work."},{"startTime":891.726,"endTime":893.864,"body":"Why would you not bake"},{"startTime":891.726,"endTime":893.864,"body":"it into your roadmap?"},{"startTime":894.178,"endTime":897.921,"body":"When I do things like this, my"},{"startTime":894.178,"endTime":897.921,"body":"default time box, my feelgood"},{"startTime":897.921,"endTime":899.178,"body":"default time box is two days."},{"startTime":899.94,"endTime":903.54,"body":"Because I feel if I spend two days,"},{"startTime":899.94,"endTime":903.54,"body":"even if people are peer programming"},{"startTime":904.34,"endTime":909.683,"body":"two people to developers, so four, four"},{"startTime":904.34,"endTime":909.683,"body":"days of pr, productivity, time, whatever"},{"startTime":909.683,"endTime":912.55,"body":"in sprint time wasted, whatever man."},{"startTime":912.664,"endTime":914.312,"body":"Like I, at least I know I"},{"startTime":912.664,"endTime":914.312,"body":"don't want to go down there."},{"startTime":914.578,"endTime":916.578,"body":"Well then it's not a waste"},{"startTime":914.578,"endTime":916.578,"body":"Cause you learned something."},{"startTime":916.578,"endTime":917.093,"body":"I learned that."},{"startTime":917.097,"endTime":918.293,"body":"I don't want to go down that path."},{"startTime":918.297,"endTime":923.035,"body":"Yeah, yeah, timebox things that are"},{"startTime":918.297,"endTime":923.035,"body":"unknown, truly unknown, work through the"},{"startTime":923.035,"endTime":927.988,"body":"learnings together as a team and decide"},{"startTime":923.035,"endTime":927.988,"body":"to pivot based on that kinda stuff."},{"startTime":928.016,"endTime":932.597,"body":"So so you don't need to estimate yourself"},{"startTime":928.016,"endTime":932.597,"body":"this time box, it's just, it goes into"},{"startTime":932.597,"endTime":935.94,"body":"your pool and you say, we're not gonna"},{"startTime":932.597,"endTime":935.94,"body":"spend more than X amount of time on this."},{"startTime":936.416,"endTime":936.702,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":936.702,"endTime":937.331,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":937.331,"endTime":937.788,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":937.845,"endTime":941.674,"body":"And one of the things that really makes"},{"startTime":937.845,"endTime":941.674,"body":"me a little bit annoyed, let's say, is"},{"startTime":941.674,"endTime":945.731,"body":"when teams have spike stories in their"},{"startTime":941.674,"endTime":945.731,"body":"sprint that last, the whole sprint."},{"startTime":945.816,"endTime":949.816,"body":"And they say, this is a an"},{"startTime":945.816,"endTime":949.816,"body":"eight point story and we've."},{"startTime":950.502,"endTime":953.445,"body":"Estimated it and at the end of the"},{"startTime":950.502,"endTime":953.445,"body":"sprint we haven't completed it."},{"startTime":953.502,"endTime":955.245,"body":"So this goes into the next sprint."},{"startTime":955.302,"endTime":958.531,"body":"Like break it down some more, do"},{"startTime":955.302,"endTime":958.531,"body":"some, some vertical sliced learnings,"},{"startTime":958.531,"endTime":961.788,"body":"because not everything needs to"},{"startTime":958.531,"endTime":961.788,"body":"go into a large story like that."},{"startTime":961.793,"endTime":963.045,"body":"You should be able to figure things out."},{"startTime":963.074,"endTime":965.303,"body":"Yeah, in a couple of days to"},{"startTime":963.074,"endTime":965.303,"body":"see if you need more days."},{"startTime":965.308,"endTime":965.54,"body":"Listen."},{"startTime":965.907,"endTime":969.165,"body":"That I've definitely had it happen to"},{"startTime":965.907,"endTime":969.165,"body":"me before where, where people come, you"},{"startTime":969.165,"endTime":973.136,"body":"know, a couple days before the sprint"},{"startTime":969.165,"endTime":973.136,"body":"ends, and I'm still seeing the, the"},{"startTime":973.141,"endTime":976.479,"body":"task in progress and I'm saying, Hey,"},{"startTime":973.141,"endTime":976.479,"body":"I thought we agreed to timebox this."},{"startTime":976.479,"endTime":977.127,"body":"Like, what, what's going on?"},{"startTime":977.479,"endTime":980.279,"body":"Like, I haven't seen a demo,"},{"startTime":977.479,"endTime":980.279,"body":"I haven't really heard about"},{"startTime":980.279,"endTime":981.708,"body":"any challenges in particular."},{"startTime":981.708,"endTime":985.117,"body":"Like what, what's like, if you're"},{"startTime":981.708,"endTime":985.117,"body":"walking the board, I feel these things"},{"startTime":985.117,"endTime":988.355,"body":"will get vetted out to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":985.117,"endTime":988.355,"body":"this time box task what's keeping"},{"startTime":988.355,"endTime":989.555,"body":"it from moving forward to done?"},{"startTime":989.927,"endTime":993.289,"body":"Right oh, oh, well now, oh, I'm,"},{"startTime":989.927,"endTime":993.289,"body":"I'm still working through it."},{"startTime":993.289,"endTime":994.146,"body":"It's kind of complicated."},{"startTime":994.146,"endTime":995.089,"body":"I'll get back to you tomorrow."},{"startTime":995.289,"endTime":998.298,"body":"Like that, that that's fine."},{"startTime":999.546,"endTime":1003.174,"body":"I want to leave your room to"},{"startTime":999.546,"endTime":1003.174,"body":"experiment and to figure out your way."},{"startTime":1003.374,"endTime":1005.689,"body":"I want, I wanna let you grow"},{"startTime":1003.374,"endTime":1005.689,"body":"and develop as a human being."},{"startTime":1005.951,"endTime":1012.008,"body":"Psychologically, emotionally,"},{"startTime":1005.951,"endTime":1012.008,"body":"physiologically, spiritually, but"},{"startTime":1012.008,"endTime":1015.047,"body":"also if I hear that as an update"},{"startTime":1012.008,"endTime":1015.047,"body":"and the first day is like, oh,"},{"startTime":1015.052,"endTime":1016.274,"body":"no, no, no, just leave me alone."},{"startTime":1016.274,"endTime":1016.817,"body":"I got this."},{"startTime":1017.246,"endTime":1017.703,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1017.855,"endTime":1018.627,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1018.627,"endTime":1021.398,"body":"But also like you don't"},{"startTime":1018.627,"endTime":1021.398,"body":"have anything to show."},{"startTime":1021.398,"endTime":1022.37,"body":"They gotta have something."},{"startTime":1022.37,"endTime":1024.198,"body":"You worked, you worked the"},{"startTime":1022.37,"endTime":1024.198,"body":"whole day and you have nothing."},{"startTime":1024.479,"endTime":1026.736,"body":"To show I That's a little farfetched."},{"startTime":1026.736,"endTime":1026.793,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1026.841,"endTime":1028.727,"body":"I am a terrible programmer."},{"startTime":1028.732,"endTime":1030.07,"body":"I will, I'll freely admit."},{"startTime":1030.37,"endTime":1031.255,"body":"Terrible programmer."},{"startTime":1031.541,"endTime":1034.341,"body":"Like the way that I program, I don't"},{"startTime":1031.541,"endTime":1034.341,"body":"know if you program this way, there's"},{"startTime":1034.341,"endTime":1036.77,"body":"probably people gonna listen to this"},{"startTime":1034.341,"endTime":1036.77,"body":"that are gonna laugh at me a hundred"},{"startTime":1036.77,"endTime":1039.284,"body":"percent fine because my things get done."},{"startTime":1039.541,"endTime":1040.427,"body":"But here's the way they get done."},{"startTime":1040.598,"endTime":1043.684,"body":"I write the script and then I'll go back"},{"startTime":1040.598,"endTime":1043.684,"body":"and I'll take sections of the script"},{"startTime":1043.684,"endTime":1047.084,"body":"that are like copy pasted, whatever,"},{"startTime":1043.684,"endTime":1047.084,"body":"and I'll refactor those into functions."},{"startTime":1047.089,"endTime":1050.598,"body":"And then at the end, You have a nice,"},{"startTime":1047.089,"endTime":1050.598,"body":"normal program with functions, but when I"},{"startTime":1050.598,"endTime":1054.941,"body":"write it originally, it's a giant massive"},{"startTime":1050.598,"endTime":1054.941,"body":"copy pasted script that's just garbage."},{"startTime":1055.141,"endTime":1057.655,"body":"And I don't wanna show it to"},{"startTime":1055.141,"endTime":1057.655,"body":"anyone cuz it's embarrassing oh,"},{"startTime":1057.655,"endTime":1058.627,"body":"I can't, I can't show it to you."},{"startTime":1058.627,"endTime":1060.313,"body":"It's really not like a"},{"startTime":1058.627,"endTime":1060.313,"body":"no, I can show it to you."},{"startTime":1060.313,"endTime":1063.57,"body":"It's just ugly, ugly, ugly unmaintainable."},{"startTime":1063.979,"endTime":1067.498,"body":"Like I wouldn't want to pass it"},{"startTime":1063.979,"endTime":1067.498,"body":"off to anyone else but I ca I"},{"startTime":1067.498,"endTime":1068.727,"body":"do have something I show you."},{"startTime":1068.841,"endTime":1069.698,"body":"That's the point, right?"},{"startTime":1069.698,"endTime":1071.784,"body":"You have something to show, right?"},{"startTime":1071.784,"endTime":1074.384,"body":"It, it doesn't have to be the most"},{"startTime":1071.784,"endTime":1074.384,"body":"elegant thing on the planet, right?"},{"startTime":1074.698,"endTime":1077.841,"body":"Maybe you decided on the second day, Hey,"},{"startTime":1074.698,"endTime":1077.841,"body":"none of this code gets called more than"},{"startTime":1077.841,"endTime":1079.155,"body":"once and there are no functions needed."},{"startTime":1079.155,"endTime":1079.784,"body":"Fine, whatever."},{"startTime":1080.013,"endTime":1083.727,"body":"But show something toward"},{"startTime":1080.013,"endTime":1083.727,"body":"the progress of it, right?"},{"startTime":1084.013,"endTime":1085.327,"body":"And say, here's what I've done."},{"startTime":1085.384,"endTime":1087.498,"body":"Here's what I, you know, here's"},{"startTime":1085.384,"endTime":1087.498,"body":"where I think I can get next."},{"startTime":1087.498,"endTime":1087.955,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1088.041,"endTime":1089.041,"body":"I'll let you know tomorrow, right?"},{"startTime":1089.155,"endTime":1089.613,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1089.617,"endTime":1092.298,"body":"But don't keep doing that every"},{"startTime":1089.617,"endTime":1092.298,"body":"day of the sprint and then at the"},{"startTime":1092.298,"endTime":1095.627,"body":"end of the day, Last day of the"},{"startTime":1092.298,"endTime":1095.627,"body":"sprint, say, I'm still not done."},{"startTime":1095.627,"endTime":1095.855,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1096.313,"endTime":1096.541,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1096.855,"endTime":1098.084,"body":"That's, it's crazy."},{"startTime":1098.122,"endTime":1101.093,"body":"The other things that are"},{"startTime":1098.122,"endTime":1101.093,"body":"steps in this journey."},{"startTime":1101.141,"endTime":1103.741,"body":"Cuz that's kind of what we're"},{"startTime":1101.141,"endTime":1103.741,"body":"outlining is like steps in a journey."},{"startTime":1103.746,"endTime":1103.865,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1104.151,"endTime":1108.817,"body":"Is now that I think about it I do this on"},{"startTime":1104.151,"endTime":1108.817,"body":"pretty much every team I have ever been"},{"startTime":1108.817,"endTime":1112.132,"body":"on is I start by writing the stories."},{"startTime":1112.389,"endTime":1115.017,"body":"Cuz I'll have the template and"},{"startTime":1112.389,"endTime":1115.017,"body":"I'll kind of, you know, have"},{"startTime":1115.017,"endTime":1116.474,"body":"'em the fields I need in Jira."},{"startTime":1116.646,"endTime":1118.503,"body":"I need business value,"},{"startTime":1116.646,"endTime":1118.503,"body":"I need user persona."},{"startTime":1118.503,"endTime":1120.674,"body":"I need, I need a couple fields"},{"startTime":1118.503,"endTime":1120.674,"body":"that aren't in Jira by stock."},{"startTime":1120.674,"endTime":1122.189,"body":"So I'll create them and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1122.189,"endTime":1124.798,"body":"And I'll I'll put refinements"},{"startTime":1122.189,"endTime":1124.798,"body":"on the calendar and I'll start"},{"startTime":1124.798,"endTime":1126.227,"body":"walking through the basic stuff."},{"startTime":1126.227,"endTime":1127.684,"body":"When you be estimating,"},{"startTime":1126.227,"endTime":1127.684,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1128.493,"endTime":1132.665,"body":"But eventually I will start gently"},{"startTime":1128.493,"endTime":1132.665,"body":"pushing back onto the team to"},{"startTime":1132.665,"endTime":1135.751,"body":"say, okay, you guys have seen me"},{"startTime":1132.665,"endTime":1135.751,"body":"writing stories for six months."},{"startTime":1136.227,"endTime":1140.141,"body":"You know that I say as a, and"},{"startTime":1136.227,"endTime":1140.141,"body":"then I name a persona, I want some"},{"startTime":1140.146,"endTime":1141.427,"body":"kind of piece of functionality."},{"startTime":1141.655,"endTime":1143.941,"body":"And because, and that,"},{"startTime":1141.655,"endTime":1143.941,"body":"that details the why."},{"startTime":1144.189,"endTime":1145.427,"body":"You should ask me the why."},{"startTime":1145.427,"endTime":1148.484,"body":"If you don't know the why, but I, I, I"},{"startTime":1145.427,"endTime":1148.484,"body":"start gently pushing onto the developers."},{"startTime":1148.684,"endTime":1151.541,"body":"You guys have sat here and watched"},{"startTime":1148.684,"endTime":1151.541,"body":"me write stories for six months."},{"startTime":1152.327,"endTime":1155.898,"body":"You should know how to write a story"},{"startTime":1152.327,"endTime":1155.898,"body":"at this point, and, and if your"},{"startTime":1156.041,"endTime":1160.841,"body":"writing stories is just completely"},{"startTime":1156.041,"endTime":1160.841,"body":"copying the way that I write"},{"startTime":1160.841,"endTime":1163.155,"body":"stories and it's just really bad."},{"startTime":1163.955,"endTime":1165.813,"body":"Listen everybody writes first drafts."},{"startTime":1165.955,"endTime":1166.813,"body":"They're all terrible."},{"startTime":1166.898,"endTime":1167.774,"body":"So don't be embarrassed."},{"startTime":1168.032,"endTime":1172.736,"body":"Like everybody learns to write stories by"},{"startTime":1168.032,"endTime":1172.736,"body":"writing up a first draft of the story in"},{"startTime":1172.736,"endTime":1174.251,"body":"front of everyone and getting yelled at."},{"startTime":1174.593,"endTime":1175.565,"body":"Everybody learns that way."},{"startTime":1175.793,"endTime":1180.298,"body":"So again, don't take it personal, but"},{"startTime":1175.793,"endTime":1180.298,"body":"I feel if the product person, or I"},{"startTime":1180.298,"endTime":1183.07,"body":"guess in larger organizations, maybe"},{"startTime":1180.298,"endTime":1183.07,"body":"like a BA or something like that, if"},{"startTime":1183.07,"endTime":1187.717,"body":"those people are writing the stories,"},{"startTime":1183.07,"endTime":1187.717,"body":"interviewing the customer and writing"},{"startTime":1187.717,"endTime":1190.774,"body":"the stories at the same time, talking"},{"startTime":1187.717,"endTime":1190.774,"body":"with the subject matter expert, having"},{"startTime":1190.774,"endTime":1193.26,"body":"them walk you through their workflow"},{"startTime":1190.774,"endTime":1193.26,"body":"as you write the stories for them."},{"startTime":1193.66,"endTime":1195.346,"body":"Again, I assuming you need"},{"startTime":1193.66,"endTime":1195.346,"body":"to talk to customers, right?"},{"startTime":1195.632,"endTime":1199.26,"body":"I'd be even willing to be challenged"},{"startTime":1195.632,"endTime":1199.26,"body":"on, maybe you should have never been"},{"startTime":1199.26,"endTime":1201.86,"body":"doing that in the first place, but I"},{"startTime":1199.26,"endTime":1201.86,"body":"like to show what success looks like."},{"startTime":1202.746,"endTime":1207.117,"body":"First and then start handing it"},{"startTime":1202.746,"endTime":1207.117,"body":"off to the team to say, now it's"},{"startTime":1207.117,"endTime":1212.174,"body":"your responsibility to do this and"},{"startTime":1207.117,"endTime":1212.174,"body":"like slowly cut over  over time."},{"startTime":1212.346,"endTime":1217.998,"body":"And then, and then at, at, at some point"},{"startTime":1212.346,"endTime":1217.998,"body":"the team will learn They will learn that"},{"startTime":1217.998,"endTime":1220.141,"body":"skill and start doing it in the future."},{"startTime":1220.313,"endTime":1222.998,"body":"And then literally all the product"},{"startTime":1220.313,"endTime":1222.998,"body":"manager has to do is show up with"},{"startTime":1222.998,"endTime":1226.732,"body":"the correct people, the correct"},{"startTime":1222.998,"endTime":1226.732,"body":"users to the session, the correct"},{"startTime":1226.732,"endTime":1232.36,"body":"stakeholders to the session, and the"},{"startTime":1226.732,"endTime":1232.36,"body":"correct why and vision in their mind."},{"startTime":1232.703,"endTime":1233.017,"body":"Basically,"},{"startTime":1233.703,"endTime":1237.922,"body":"I think the developers co-creating"},{"startTime":1233.703,"endTime":1237.922,"body":"stories is, is excellent I encourage"},{"startTime":1237.927,"endTime":1239.951,"body":"that by putting a template in place."},{"startTime":1239.955,"endTime":1242.408,"body":"When you click new to create a"},{"startTime":1239.955,"endTime":1242.408,"body":"new story, yeah, you can do that."},{"startTime":1242.436,"endTime":1245.665,"body":"It starts off with as a, and then"},{"startTime":1242.436,"endTime":1245.665,"body":"there's a couple of braces there."},{"startTime":1245.665,"endTime":1247.351,"body":"They can fill in the persona or whatever."},{"startTime":1247.808,"endTime":1248.36,"body":"So it."},{"startTime":1248.574,"endTime":1250.974,"body":"So one thing is, you know,"},{"startTime":1248.574,"endTime":1250.974,"body":"initially yes, you're right."},{"startTime":1250.974,"endTime":1252.289,"body":"We need to show what good looked like."},{"startTime":1252.546,"endTime":1254.46,"body":"Don't go in there with"},{"startTime":1252.546,"endTime":1254.46,"body":"the stories created."},{"startTime":1254.46,"endTime":1255.174,"body":"Do it in front of them."},{"startTime":1255.403,"endTime":1255.546,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1255.889,"endTime":1259.432,"body":"And just work it out with"},{"startTime":1255.889,"endTime":1259.432,"body":"them, you know, interactively."},{"startTime":1259.436,"endTime":1259.489,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1259.632,"endTime":1263.26,"body":"So they can see the process is"},{"startTime":1259.632,"endTime":1263.26,"body":"kind of, it's collaborative, right."},{"startTime":1263.517,"endTime":1264.117,"body":"In nature."},{"startTime":1264.374,"endTime":1267.574,"body":"And, and then flat out, ask them who"},{"startTime":1264.374,"endTime":1267.574,"body":"would like to create the next story?"},{"startTime":1267.603,"endTime":1268.803,"body":"Feel free to share your screen."},{"startTime":1268.803,"endTime":1270.032,"body":"And, and let's, let's do this."},{"startTime":1270.203,"endTime":1272.832,"body":"We'll do this together so they"},{"startTime":1270.203,"endTime":1272.832,"body":"don't feel like they're gonna fail."},{"startTime":1272.832,"endTime":1273.06,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1273.346,"endTime":1274.06,"body":"You really can't fail."},{"startTime":1274.06,"endTime":1275.117,"body":"It's a learning exercise."},{"startTime":1275.432,"endTime":1275.974,"body":"But I agree."},{"startTime":1275.974,"endTime":1280.355,"body":"I think co-creating stories sense"},{"startTime":1275.974,"endTime":1280.355,"body":"has a sense of co-ownership too."},{"startTime":1280.413,"endTime":1280.584,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1280.727,"endTime":1281.07,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1281.07,"endTime":1285.555,"body":"And if one person does it and goes"},{"startTime":1281.07,"endTime":1285.555,"body":"through it as a developer, next"},{"startTime":1285.555,"endTime":1286.555,"body":"one's gonna put their hand up."},{"startTime":1286.613,"endTime":1287.308,"body":"That just happens."},{"startTime":1287.308,"endTime":1287.536,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1287.841,"endTime":1288.384,"body":"Organically."},{"startTime":1288.384,"endTime":1289.413,"body":"So I like that."},{"startTime":1289.413,"endTime":1291.155,"body":"I think, I think that's the way to go."},{"startTime":1291.16,"endTime":1294.241,"body":"Not bring ready created"},{"startTime":1291.16,"endTime":1294.241,"body":"stories and say, here you go."},{"startTime":1294.555,"endTime":1294.784,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1294.784,"endTime":1296.155,"body":"Go, go chew on these things."},{"startTime":1296.327,"endTime":1297.155,"body":"That's nuts."},{"startTime":1297.213,"endTime":1300.87,"body":"I like where you Started with that"},{"startTime":1297.213,"endTime":1300.87,"body":"which is one, one developer creates"},{"startTime":1300.87,"endTime":1304.413,"body":"one story, and then when they create"},{"startTime":1300.87,"endTime":1304.413,"body":"one story, like pass the baton to the"},{"startTime":1304.413,"endTime":1307.403,"body":"next person and say, Hey, like it'd be"},{"startTime":1304.413,"endTime":1307.403,"body":"nice to have a team working agreement"},{"startTime":1307.408,"endTime":1310.851,"body":"that says like whoever creates a story"},{"startTime":1307.408,"endTime":1310.851,"body":"can't create the next story and they"},{"startTime":1310.855,"endTime":1311.793,"body":"have to pass it to somebody else."},{"startTime":1311.798,"endTime":1313.509,"body":"So maybe he is like two people"},{"startTime":1311.798,"endTime":1313.509,"body":"trading off back and forth."},{"startTime":1313.513,"endTime":1318.208,"body":"Sure, maybe that's okay, but at a"},{"startTime":1313.513,"endTime":1318.208,"body":"minimum, I don't want one person creating"},{"startTime":1318.208,"endTime":1319.865,"body":"all the stories I want a trade off."},{"startTime":1320.408,"endTime":1322.722,"body":"Well, I'll tell you what happened,"},{"startTime":1320.408,"endTime":1322.722,"body":"a little slight anecdote here"},{"startTime":1322.77,"endTime":1323.827,"body":"a couple of seconds on that."},{"startTime":1323.884,"endTime":1323.998,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1324.113,"endTime":1328.836,"body":"So one of the persons who basically put"},{"startTime":1324.113,"endTime":1328.836,"body":"their hand up voluntarily, it was a QA"},{"startTime":1328.979,"endTime":1333.703,"body":"person and when she started writing the"},{"startTime":1328.979,"endTime":1333.703,"body":"stories, it was really good because she"},{"startTime":1333.703,"endTime":1335.665,"body":"started putting in the QA perspective."},{"startTime":1336.189,"endTime":1338.874,"body":"Like she would start asking questions"},{"startTime":1336.189,"endTime":1338.874,"body":"like, well that's good, but how"},{"startTime":1338.879,"endTime":1340.16,"body":"can we, how can we test that?"},{"startTime":1340.617,"endTime":1340.96,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1341.332,"endTime":1341.789,"body":"And."},{"startTime":1342.317,"endTime":1344.574,"body":"To me, this is the essence of it."},{"startTime":1344.574,"endTime":1344.803,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1344.803,"endTime":1348.889,"body":"Collaborate together to see how the"},{"startTime":1344.803,"endTime":1348.889,"body":"team jointly could meet the d o d Yeah."},{"startTime":1349.06,"endTime":1349.632,"body":"On the story."},{"startTime":1349.632,"endTime":1351.803,"body":"So that's, that was a great experience."},{"startTime":1352.089,"endTime":1356.155,"body":"Something I brought up just now that"},{"startTime":1352.089,"endTime":1356.155,"body":"we kind of glanced over is whoever the"},{"startTime":1356.155,"endTime":1359.527,"body":"stakeholders are, that the stories are"},{"startTime":1356.155,"endTime":1359.527,"body":"kind of being written on behalf of."},{"startTime":1360.003,"endTime":1365.66,"body":"They should be in those refinements when"},{"startTime":1360.003,"endTime":1365.66,"body":"you're writing the stories and all of"},{"startTime":1365.66,"endTime":1369.689,"body":"your developers on the development team"},{"startTime":1365.66,"endTime":1369.689,"body":"should also be in those sessions, or at"},{"startTime":1369.689,"endTime":1371.203,"body":"least whoever's gonna work on it, right?"},{"startTime":1371.203,"endTime":1375.003,"body":"If you, if you have the ability"},{"startTime":1371.203,"endTime":1375.003,"body":"to get down to that granular level"},{"startTime":1375.003,"endTime":1376.689,"body":"before you even know you're gonna"},{"startTime":1375.003,"endTime":1376.689,"body":"be working on it, I don't know."},{"startTime":1376.774,"endTime":1377.746,"body":"I even know how you do that."},{"startTime":1377.746,"endTime":1379.946,"body":"But if you can figure out"},{"startTime":1377.746,"endTime":1379.946,"body":"how to do that, that's great."},{"startTime":1380.117,"endTime":1385.946,"body":"But the, the, the team should be talking"},{"startTime":1380.117,"endTime":1385.946,"body":"directly with that customer that's heresy."},{"startTime":1386.632,"endTime":1389.46,"body":"I know, you know, at most site,"},{"startTime":1386.632,"endTime":1389.46,"body":"most locations they don't do that."},{"startTime":1389.66,"endTime":1391.717,"body":"I haven't seen the"},{"startTime":1389.66,"endTime":1391.717,"body":"actual customer in there."},{"startTime":1391.717,"endTime":1395.66,"body":"I've seen the customer proxies, I've seen,"},{"startTime":1391.717,"endTime":1395.66,"body":"you know, ba I mean, whatever you gotta do"},{"startTime":1395.66,"endTime":1397.974,"body":"to get it, whatever you gotta do to start."},{"startTime":1397.979,"endTime":1400.089,"body":"If it's a customer proxy, okay, fine."},{"startTime":1400.089,"endTime":1400.832,"body":"It's a customer proxy."},{"startTime":1400.832,"endTime":1404.927,"body":"But it's better than, it's better"},{"startTime":1400.832,"endTime":1404.927,"body":"than the, the product manager"},{"startTime":1404.927,"endTime":1408.384,"body":"and the development lead or team"},{"startTime":1404.927,"endTime":1408.384,"body":"lead or development manager."},{"startTime":1408.913,"endTime":1412.113,"body":"Going off and talking with the proxy"},{"startTime":1408.913,"endTime":1412.113,"body":"by themselves and then bringing the"},{"startTime":1412.113,"endTime":1414.798,"body":"work back to, oh, oh, no, actually"},{"startTime":1412.113,"endTime":1414.798,"body":"not even bringing the work back."},{"startTime":1414.855,"endTime":1416.684,"body":"This is like the Silicon"},{"startTime":1414.855,"endTime":1416.684,"body":"Valley model or whatever."},{"startTime":1416.684,"endTime":1420.903,"body":"The people get lunch all day like"},{"startTime":1416.684,"endTime":1420.903,"body":"the, the, the product manager and the"},{"startTime":1420.903,"endTime":1425.684,"body":"development lead going and talking to"},{"startTime":1420.903,"endTime":1425.684,"body":"the customer proxy and then talking"},{"startTime":1425.703,"endTime":1429.532,"body":"to each other in a separate session,"},{"startTime":1425.703,"endTime":1429.532,"body":"writing up the stories, and then the"},{"startTime":1429.532,"endTime":1432.189,"body":"development lead without the product"},{"startTime":1429.532,"endTime":1432.189,"body":"manager goes back to the developers and"},{"startTime":1432.189,"endTime":1433.303,"body":"tells 'em what they need to program."},{"startTime":1433.817,"endTime":1438.903,"body":"That, that, that's the model that scares"},{"startTime":1433.817,"endTime":1438.903,"body":"me more than anything else, like a"},{"startTime":1438.903,"endTime":1443.446,"body":"proxy with everybody in the room, I'm"},{"startTime":1438.903,"endTime":1443.446,"body":"actually even more comfortable with."},{"startTime":1444.389,"endTime":1448.103,"body":"Then what I just described, what I"},{"startTime":1444.389,"endTime":1448.103,"body":"just described is scary, and I've seen"},{"startTime":1448.103,"endTime":1449.474,"body":"it in a bunch, multiple hands off."},{"startTime":1449.503,"endTime":1450.103,"body":"I saw, yeah."},{"startTime":1450.103,"endTime":1451.332,"body":"Multiple handoffs, right?"},{"startTime":1451.332,"endTime":1451.417,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1451.422,"endTime":1454.074,"body":"I mean, that's a prevalent"},{"startTime":1451.422,"endTime":1454.074,"body":"model out there, unfortunately."},{"startTime":1454.079,"endTime":1454.132,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1454.246,"endTime":1455.332,"body":"That's what I've seen the most."},{"startTime":1455.874,"endTime":1456.074,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1456.074,"endTime":1460.674,"body":"Well, that's very scary because"},{"startTime":1456.074,"endTime":1460.674,"body":"the why doesn't ring true in, in,"},{"startTime":1460.674,"endTime":1462.046,"body":"in that scenario, and a proxy's."},{"startTime":1462.074,"endTime":1462.532,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1462.846,"endTime":1466.203,"body":"But over time, whoever that proxy is,"},{"startTime":1462.846,"endTime":1466.203,"body":"Maybe your development team can get them"},{"startTime":1466.203,"endTime":1472.946,"body":"comfortable bringing the customer in as"},{"startTime":1466.203,"endTime":1472.946,"body":"well, or, or if not, maybe you can get"},{"startTime":1472.946,"endTime":1478.146,"body":"them comfortable asking the proxy to"},{"startTime":1472.946,"endTime":1478.146,"body":"bring the customer to the sprint review."},{"startTime":1479.279,"endTime":1480.355,"body":"And then over time as the."},{"startTime":1481.132,"endTime":1486.579,"body":"As the customer and the proxy get"},{"startTime":1481.132,"endTime":1486.579,"body":"comfortable with the development team at"},{"startTime":1486.579,"endTime":1491.265,"body":"the sprint reviews, maybe they can kind of"},{"startTime":1486.579,"endTime":1491.265,"body":"talk 'em into coming to the refinements."},{"startTime":1491.551,"endTime":1494.074,"body":"I, I think that's a good model because"},{"startTime":1491.551,"endTime":1494.074,"body":"it sets the expectation, right,"},{"startTime":1494.322,"endTime":1496.408,"body":"what's coming next at the review."},{"startTime":1496.465,"endTime":1500.208,"body":"And then during the refinement it says"},{"startTime":1496.465,"endTime":1500.208,"body":"the expectation of, we're working on this."},{"startTime":1500.622,"endTime":1504.193,"body":"Confirmation of the what and"},{"startTime":1500.622,"endTime":1504.193,"body":"the why so that at the next"},{"startTime":1504.193,"endTime":1505.565,"body":"review, they're not surprised."},{"startTime":1505.593,"endTime":1510.079,"body":"Oh, what a, what a great and also"},{"startTime":1505.593,"endTime":1510.079,"body":"sneaky way of evolving your team of"},{"startTime":1510.084,"endTime":1515.165,"body":"like just dovetailing your sprint"},{"startTime":1510.084,"endTime":1515.165,"body":"review straight into a refining because"},{"startTime":1515.165,"endTime":1516.079,"body":"you have the people in the room."},{"startTime":1516.251,"endTime":1518.366,"body":"What a, what a great sneaky way."},{"startTime":1518.879,"endTime":1523.393,"body":"Of advancing your team's understanding"},{"startTime":1518.879,"endTime":1523.393,"body":"and, and you know, well, customers"},{"startTime":1523.393,"endTime":1526.108,"body":"are hard to come by in terms of"},{"startTime":1523.393,"endTime":1526.108,"body":"their time, so you may as well"},{"startTime":1526.108,"endTime":1527.622,"body":"leverage it as much as you can."},{"startTime":1527.622,"endTime":1531.993,"body":"It's not a bad plan as, as far as saving"},{"startTime":1527.622,"endTime":1531.993,"body":"people time, it's not a bad planner."},{"startTime":1531.998,"endTime":1534.908,"body":"Like with sprint review is gonna"},{"startTime":1531.998,"endTime":1534.908,"body":"dovetail straight into a refinement."},{"startTime":1535.127,"endTime":1535.87,"body":"Um, that's."},{"startTime":1536.608,"endTime":1538.293,"body":"That's, that's not bad."},{"startTime":1538.293,"endTime":1538.808,"body":"Actually."},{"startTime":1538.813,"endTime":1541.493,"body":"Now, now I think about it, like if, I'm"},{"startTime":1538.813,"endTime":1541.493,"body":"trying to think about techniques for,"},{"startTime":1541.579,"endTime":1545.236,"body":"for, for teams who have a difficult"},{"startTime":1541.579,"endTime":1545.236,"body":"time getting in front of their actual"},{"startTime":1545.236,"endTime":1547.065,"body":"customers they're serving, that's not bad."},{"startTime":1547.541,"endTime":1550.751,"body":"Then the customers also get to"},{"startTime":1547.541,"endTime":1550.751,"body":"see if you're if you're estimating"},{"startTime":1550.755,"endTime":1554.036,"body":"your work, let's say you haven't"},{"startTime":1550.755,"endTime":1554.036,"body":"got to the point of no estimates."},{"startTime":1554.093,"endTime":1556.874,"body":"Yeah the customers, if you're"},{"startTime":1554.093,"endTime":1556.874,"body":"refining and estimating right"},{"startTime":1556.874,"endTime":1558.36,"body":"away in that same session because."},{"startTime":1558.903,"endTime":1560.389,"body":"The stories have just been refined."},{"startTime":1560.389,"endTime":1561.36,"body":"They're top of mind."},{"startTime":1561.655,"endTime":1564.113,"body":"Then the customer gets an"},{"startTime":1561.655,"endTime":1564.113,"body":"idea of the process, right?"},{"startTime":1564.341,"endTime":1568.055,"body":"And they understand how much work"},{"startTime":1564.341,"endTime":1568.055,"body":"the team can potentially take up."},{"startTime":1568.06,"endTime":1568.198,"body":"It."},{"startTime":1568.203,"endTime":1569.998,"body":"It might change a little, but Yeah."},{"startTime":1570.313,"endTime":1572.684,"body":"You know, so it's all about"},{"startTime":1570.313,"endTime":1572.684,"body":"setting the right expectations,"},{"startTime":1572.684,"endTime":1573.874,"body":"right from the beginning, right?"},{"startTime":1573.874,"endTime":1576.96,"body":"So at the review you can say, we agreed"},{"startTime":1573.874,"endTime":1576.96,"body":"on all these things, these eight stories."},{"startTime":1576.96,"endTime":1577.817,"body":"We got seven done."},{"startTime":1577.817,"endTime":1580.389,"body":"One we were reading on something,"},{"startTime":1577.817,"endTime":1580.389,"body":"we took it out of the sprint."},{"startTime":1580.389,"endTime":1580.817,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1580.874,"endTime":1581.693,"body":"You know so yeah."},{"startTime":1582.065,"endTime":1582.608,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":1583.093,"endTime":1583.465,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1583.465,"endTime":1586.479,"body":"I'm trying to think of people that"},{"startTime":1583.465,"endTime":1586.479,"body":"might push back on what we're saying."},{"startTime":1586.479,"endTime":1588.793,"body":"I'm trying to think of what"},{"startTime":1586.479,"endTime":1588.793,"body":"they might be concerned about."},{"startTime":1589.022,"endTime":1594.67,"body":"I could see teams with like proxy"},{"startTime":1589.022,"endTime":1594.67,"body":"pos or weak pos or pos that are"},{"startTime":1594.67,"endTime":1597.774,"body":"just kind of like  pass throughs"},{"startTime":1594.67,"endTime":1597.774,"body":"for  feature teams, stuff like that."},{"startTime":1597.774,"endTime":1598.889,"body":"They, they don't really know the why."},{"startTime":1598.889,"endTime":1601.527,"body":"They're just kind of doing what"},{"startTime":1598.889,"endTime":1601.527,"body":"they're told it's difficult to align"},{"startTime":1601.527,"endTime":1604.47,"body":"your team and what they're doing"},{"startTime":1601.527,"endTime":1604.47,"body":"to business priorities when your PO"},{"startTime":1604.47,"endTime":1607.955,"body":"is kind of not really the empowered"},{"startTime":1604.47,"endTime":1607.955,"body":"person in the business that, that."},{"startTime":1607.984,"endTime":1609.436,"body":"So I, I guess maybe."},{"startTime":1609.674,"endTime":1611.932,"body":"Maybe I should have started this"},{"startTime":1609.674,"endTime":1611.932,"body":"podcast with, with this item."},{"startTime":1611.979,"endTime":1615.036,"body":"It's difficult to, to, to"},{"startTime":1611.979,"endTime":1615.036,"body":"proceed in all the different ways"},{"startTime":1615.036,"endTime":1615.827,"body":"that we've been talking about."},{"startTime":1616.665,"endTime":1619.265,"body":"When your PO really doesn't know the why"},{"startTime":1619.36,"endTime":1622.313,"body":"they're not informed as to the"},{"startTime":1619.36,"endTime":1622.313,"body":"company's vision, they're not"},{"startTime":1622.313,"endTime":1623.608,"body":"informed as the product vision."},{"startTime":1624.084,"endTime":1628.427,"body":"You know, maybe they're buried in"},{"startTime":1624.084,"endTime":1628.427,"body":"a couple layers down in a group"},{"startTime":1628.513,"endTime":1630.027,"body":"product management kind of layer."},{"startTime":1630.032,"endTime":1632.684,"body":"You know, I, so there, there's"},{"startTime":1630.032,"endTime":1632.684,"body":"some challenges there that"},{"startTime":1632.689,"endTime":1634.332,"body":"may be organizationally, I."},{"startTime":1634.355,"endTime":1637.241,"body":"Um, you have to talk with your PO and"},{"startTime":1634.355,"endTime":1637.241,"body":"you have to talk with  maybe a couple"},{"startTime":1637.241,"endTime":1640.098,"body":"layers up in your organization to figure"},{"startTime":1637.241,"endTime":1640.098,"body":"out if there's a better way you can"},{"startTime":1640.098,"endTime":1644.07,"body":"solve, or, or maybe you have a PO who's"},{"startTime":1640.098,"endTime":1644.07,"body":"overworked on many, many teams and you"},{"startTime":1644.07,"endTime":1645.584,"body":"know, maybe that's another conversation."},{"startTime":1646.013,"endTime":1646.384,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1646.384,"endTime":1649.979,"body":"And, and I've also seen that kind of"},{"startTime":1646.384,"endTime":1649.979,"body":"behavior from teams that say, but we're"},{"startTime":1650.036,"endTime":1653.693,"body":"developing things in a B2B environment,"},{"startTime":1650.036,"endTime":1653.693,"body":"and then they have the customers."},{"startTime":1653.822,"endTime":1655.993,"body":"So how can we get access"},{"startTime":1653.822,"endTime":1655.993,"body":"to those customers?"},{"startTime":1655.993,"endTime":1656.308,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1656.708,"endTime":1659.708,"body":"And, and that that's also not true"},{"startTime":1656.708,"endTime":1659.708,"body":"because you need to really live in"},{"startTime":1659.708,"endTime":1661.051,"body":"the shoes of the actual customers."},{"startTime":1661.051,"endTime":1661.193,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1661.222,"endTime":1664.632,"body":"Right but yeah, I, I think any of"},{"startTime":1661.222,"endTime":1664.632,"body":"these things, if you can start with"},{"startTime":1664.636,"endTime":1667.974,"body":"them and then evolve to the place"},{"startTime":1664.636,"endTime":1667.974,"body":"where your teams are getting more"},{"startTime":1667.974,"endTime":1669.774,"body":"mature, might take a few sprints."},{"startTime":1670.089,"endTime":1673.755,"body":"You probably get there where they"},{"startTime":1670.089,"endTime":1673.755,"body":"don't have the estimate eventually."},{"startTime":1674.26,"endTime":1674.546,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1674.546,"endTime":1676.746,"body":"But give them, give"},{"startTime":1674.546,"endTime":1676.746,"body":"them the, the rationale."},{"startTime":1676.746,"endTime":1678.66,"body":"Give them the tools they"},{"startTime":1676.746,"endTime":1678.66,"body":"need to succeed with it."},{"startTime":1678.66,"endTime":1678.746,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1679.203,"endTime":1679.26,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1679.26,"endTime":1680.574,"body":"And then put these techniques in place."},{"startTime":1681.146,"endTime":1686.541,"body":"I just wish I had a better suggestion"},{"startTime":1681.146,"endTime":1686.541,"body":"about aligning your PO properly."},{"startTime":1686.541,"endTime":1690.307,"body":"You know, if they're not, I, I,"},{"startTime":1686.541,"endTime":1690.307,"body":"I don't have much of a suggestion"},{"startTime":1690.307,"endTime":1691.707,"body":"there because it, it, I have one."},{"startTime":1691.821,"endTime":1692.021,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":1692.026,"endTime":1692.25,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":1692.25,"endTime":1692.421,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1692.935,"endTime":1696.959,"body":"My suggestion is, is gonna sound a"},{"startTime":1692.935,"endTime":1696.959,"body":"little radical how about your PO coming"},{"startTime":1696.959,"endTime":1699.216,"body":"from the customer's organization?"},{"startTime":1699.245,"endTime":1699.445,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1699.445,"endTime":1702.045,"body":"From, from them, like one"},{"startTime":1699.445,"endTime":1702.045,"body":"of the customers is your po."},{"startTime":1702.131,"endTime":1702.445,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1702.902,"endTime":1705.702,"body":"Now your SME is in the"},{"startTime":1702.902,"endTime":1705.702,"body":"room with you, right?"},{"startTime":1706.178,"endTime":1706.721,"body":"Think about it."},{"startTime":1706.893,"endTime":1707.35,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1707.635,"endTime":1708.035,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1708.321,"endTime":1712.702,"body":"Maybe if you show business value in"},{"startTime":1708.321,"endTime":1712.702,"body":"line with the rest of your metrics, you"},{"startTime":1712.702,"endTime":1718.178,"body":"know, or maybe if you have a customer"},{"startTime":1712.702,"endTime":1718.178,"body":"actual usage metrics to show before"},{"startTime":1718.178,"endTime":1723.178,"body":"and after features, maybe you can help"},{"startTime":1718.178,"endTime":1723.178,"body":"your PO be a bit more empowered, a bit"},{"startTime":1723.183,"endTime":1724.664,"body":"more data driven with their decisions."},{"startTime":1724.664,"endTime":1726.55,"body":"Maybe you can help them"},{"startTime":1724.664,"endTime":1726.55,"body":"with their decisions."},{"startTime":1726.569,"endTime":1727.35,"body":"I, I, I don't know."},{"startTime":1727.35,"endTime":1730.921,"body":"I'm, I'm trying to think of, of"},{"startTime":1727.35,"endTime":1730.921,"body":"trying to help a struggling po  in an"},{"startTime":1730.921,"endTime":1734.021,"body":"organization where they're, You know,"},{"startTime":1730.921,"endTime":1734.021,"body":"basically just told like, just deliver"},{"startTime":1734.021,"endTime":1735.535,"body":"these features and get outta here kid."},{"startTime":1735.535,"endTime":1736.364,"body":"That's a feature factory."},{"startTime":1736.421,"endTime":1736.478,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1736.869,"endTime":1739.535,"body":"."},{"startTime":1736.869,"endTime":1739.535,"body":"That's about the only, that's the only"},{"startTime":1739.54,"endTime":1742.997,"body":"The other thing that I tell my teams"},{"startTime":1739.54,"endTime":1742.997,"body":"is I don't really care how they"},{"startTime":1743.002,"endTime":1746.854,"body":"estimate, like story points, hours,"},{"startTime":1743.002,"endTime":1746.854,"body":"whatever, because I'm gonna be watching"},{"startTime":1746.854,"endTime":1749.131,"body":"the throughput for their stories."},{"startTime":1749.559,"endTime":1752.254,"body":"I'm gonna be watching the I'm"},{"startTime":1749.559,"endTime":1752.254,"body":"gonna be, I'm, I'm going to watch"},{"startTime":1752.254,"endTime":1755.597,"body":"the throughput and I'm gonna watch"},{"startTime":1752.254,"endTime":1755.597,"body":"the cycle time and lead time."},{"startTime":1756.073,"endTime":1758.245,"body":"So how many stories did"},{"startTime":1756.073,"endTime":1758.245,"body":"they complete in the sprint?"},{"startTime":1758.445,"endTime":1763.273,"body":"Basically just pure number of stories and"},{"startTime":1758.445,"endTime":1763.273,"body":"what the cycle time and lead time for the"},{"startTime":1763.273,"endTime":1765.302,"body":"stories that the team pulls through are."},{"startTime":1765.359,"endTime":1767.673,"body":"I'm gonna watch the"},{"startTime":1765.359,"endTime":1767.673,"body":"all, all three of those."},{"startTime":1768.026,"endTime":1769.759,"body":"I'm a little less"},{"startTime":1768.026,"endTime":1769.759,"body":"concerned about lead time."},{"startTime":1770.683,"endTime":1774.464,"body":"Yeah, I'm a because you can gain that"},{"startTime":1770.683,"endTime":1774.464,"body":"and then like the, it, it depends on the"},{"startTime":1774.464,"endTime":1776.569,"body":"organization's intake method and stuff."},{"startTime":1776.569,"endTime":1778.483,"body":"Like I'm a little less"},{"startTime":1776.569,"endTime":1778.483,"body":"concerned about it for the team."},{"startTime":1778.712,"endTime":1783.378,"body":"I am more concerned for the program right"},{"startTime":1778.712,"endTime":1783.378,"body":"yes, but I'm gonna be watching cycle time."},{"startTime":1783.578,"endTime":1788.254,"body":"I'm gonna be watching  throughput"},{"startTime":1783.578,"endTime":1788.254,"body":"and, and with an eye on the, you know,"},{"startTime":1788.254,"endTime":1791.283,"body":"the, the burn down slash velocity"},{"startTime":1788.254,"endTime":1791.283,"body":"that the team is putting through."},{"startTime":1791.435,"endTime":1796.931,"body":"Cuz I'm gonna be kind of I, I'm going"},{"startTime":1791.435,"endTime":1796.931,"body":"to, I, as the product person am going to"},{"startTime":1796.931,"endTime":1798.873,"body":"be looking if there were kind of equal."},{"startTime":1798.878,"endTime":1804.273,"body":"Like if my, if, if my velocity is"},{"startTime":1798.878,"endTime":1804.273,"body":"relatively stable, I would also expect"},{"startTime":1804.502,"endTime":1806.502,"body":"that my cycle time is relatively stable."},{"startTime":1806.845,"endTime":1807.616,"body":"Oh, absolutely."},{"startTime":1807.621,"endTime":1808.559,"body":"They're correlated, right."},{"startTime":1808.559,"endTime":1808.873,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":1809.269,"endTime":1812.469,"body":"I, I think the thing to do is to make"},{"startTime":1809.269,"endTime":1812.469,"body":"sure you know what metric you're using"},{"startTime":1812.469,"endTime":1815.212,"body":"and what time horizon it spans over."},{"startTime":1815.212,"endTime":1815.269,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1815.297,"endTime":1818.335,"body":"Right so obviously velocity"},{"startTime":1815.297,"endTime":1818.335,"body":"per sprint, et cetera."},{"startTime":1818.412,"endTime":1821.212,"body":"cycle time, you wanna"},{"startTime":1818.412,"endTime":1821.212,"body":"give a good time range."},{"startTime":1821.212,"endTime":1822.564,"body":"Maybe a, I don't know, two, three months."},{"startTime":1822.916,"endTime":1823.231,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1823.259,"endTime":1827.088,"body":"So it can average out so, so I"},{"startTime":1823.259,"endTime":1827.088,"body":"think that's good because cycle"},{"startTime":1827.088,"endTime":1830.259,"body":"time does give you on average how"},{"startTime":1827.088,"endTime":1830.259,"body":"long things are in the hopper."},{"startTime":1830.345,"endTime":1830.459,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1830.612,"endTime":1831.554,"body":"From start to finish."},{"startTime":1831.793,"endTime":1834.764,"body":"You, I, I'm not concerned about lead time"},{"startTime":1831.793,"endTime":1834.764,"body":"because it's one of those metrics that if."},{"startTime":1835.335,"endTime":1836.821,"body":"The team is doing a good job."},{"startTime":1836.878,"endTime":1838.621,"body":"It perhaps tends to punish them."},{"startTime":1838.669,"endTime":1839.897,"body":"And here's how right."},{"startTime":1839.897,"endTime":1843.945,"body":"You do a good job and get all these"},{"startTime":1839.897,"endTime":1843.945,"body":"stories in your backlog, right?"},{"startTime":1843.945,"endTime":1847.945,"body":"So you have a reasonably good backlog,"},{"startTime":1843.945,"endTime":1847.945,"body":"not too deep to the point where it's"},{"startTime":1847.945,"endTime":1851.346,"body":"so deep that it's just gonna decay away"},{"startTime":1847.945,"endTime":1851.346,"body":"so if you're doing that and the team"},{"startTime":1851.351,"endTime":1855.259,"body":"is taking off the top of the stack,"},{"startTime":1851.351,"endTime":1855.259,"body":"certain number of stories and, and kind"},{"startTime":1855.259,"endTime":1856.716,"body":"of churning away through the backlog."},{"startTime":1857.259,"endTime":1861.345,"body":"Those stories that you put on the backlog"},{"startTime":1857.259,"endTime":1861.345,"body":"to begin with, their lead time started"},{"startTime":1861.345,"endTime":1862.659,"body":"the minute they were created, right?"},{"startTime":1862.716,"endTime":1862.802,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1862.859,"endTime":1865.973,"body":"So that lead time is going to be"},{"startTime":1862.859,"endTime":1865.973,"body":"excessively long when they deliver,"},{"startTime":1865.978,"endTime":1869.745,"body":"but actually they may deliver their"},{"startTime":1865.978,"endTime":1869.745,"body":"story appropriately, meaning when it"},{"startTime":1869.745,"endTime":1871.316,"body":"was supposed to be delivered, right?"},{"startTime":1871.364,"endTime":1873.278,"body":"Which sprint, et cetera,"},{"startTime":1871.364,"endTime":1873.278,"body":"if you're sprinting."},{"startTime":1873.802,"endTime":1874.488,"body":"So that's one."},{"startTime":1874.716,"endTime":1878.869,"body":"The other side of it is if you are"},{"startTime":1874.716,"endTime":1878.869,"body":"using CanBan you don't have a very deep."},{"startTime":1878.873,"endTime":1879.559,"body":"Backlog typically."},{"startTime":1879.759,"endTime":1879.988,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1880.188,"endTime":1881.816,"body":"Then your lead time looks great."},{"startTime":1882.159,"endTime":1884.426,"body":"Right and so what about cycle time?"},{"startTime":1884.431,"endTime":1887.397,"body":"Well, what time bands"},{"startTime":1884.431,"endTime":1887.397,"body":"are you using for that?"},{"startTime":1887.426,"endTime":1887.512,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1887.74,"endTime":1890.912,"body":"There's kanban, so"},{"startTime":1887.74,"endTime":1890.912,"body":"again, put up a time ban."},{"startTime":1890.94,"endTime":1895.054,"body":"Just say it's a month, or, you know, three"},{"startTime":1890.94,"endTime":1895.054,"body":"months, whatever time period you use."},{"startTime":1895.054,"endTime":1895.969,"body":"Use it consistently."},{"startTime":1895.973,"endTime":1897.883,"body":"Obviously don't switch, but yeah."},{"startTime":1897.94,"endTime":1901.483,"body":"So I think those, those have to"},{"startTime":1897.94,"endTime":1901.483,"body":"be taken in in context, right?"},{"startTime":1901.488,"endTime":1901.502,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1902.112,"endTime":1905.54,"body":"If you are using Jira for example,"},{"startTime":1902.112,"endTime":1905.54,"body":"like I haven't done that in a while"},{"startTime":1905.54,"endTime":1910.059,"body":"on a podcast, like if you are using"},{"startTime":1905.54,"endTime":1910.059,"body":"Jira and you enjoy pain so that you"},{"startTime":1910.059,"endTime":1914.469,"body":"use Jira and you don't need to ever"},{"startTime":1910.059,"endTime":1914.469,"body":"show things like across multiple teams"},{"startTime":1914.473,"endTime":1916.098,"body":"or products or at a leadership level."},{"startTime":1916.678,"endTime":1919.059,"body":"I guess then then I guess you use Jira."},{"startTime":1919.516,"endTime":1923.693,"body":"There you go there so like, if you're"},{"startTime":1919.516,"endTime":1923.693,"body":"using Jira JIRA gives you a control chart."},{"startTime":1923.693,"endTime":1925.721,"body":"They call it control chart because"},{"startTime":1923.693,"endTime":1925.721,"body":"they like to work controlled."},{"startTime":1925.726,"endTime":1927.635,"body":"Of course they do, because it's hilarious."},{"startTime":1927.635,"endTime":1927.778,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1927.835,"endTime":1929.778,"body":"Well, they're you're working"},{"startTime":1927.835,"endTime":1929.778,"body":"in a project, aren't you?"},{"startTime":1929.826,"endTime":1930.054,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1930.169,"endTime":1930.683,"body":"The, oh yeah."},{"startTime":1930.688,"endTime":1931.94,"body":"That's why all their"},{"startTime":1930.688,"endTime":1931.94,"body":"products are called projects."},{"startTime":1932.54,"endTime":1937.416,"body":"But what the control chart in Jira does"},{"startTime":1932.54,"endTime":1937.416,"body":"is it lets you see the time at every step"},{"startTime":1937.702,"endTime":1941.702,"body":"in whatever workflow you've created in"},{"startTime":1937.702,"endTime":1941.702,"body":"your overly complex workflow and or steps."},{"startTime":1941.731,"endTime":1944.245,"body":"But it, but it does, it"},{"startTime":1941.731,"endTime":1944.245,"body":"lets you inspect every step."},{"startTime":1944.245,"endTime":1946.932,"body":"So how long does it take to go"},{"startTime":1944.245,"endTime":1946.932,"body":"from step to step in every step?"},{"startTime":1947.045,"endTime":1950.616,"body":"So if, if you truly are dedicated"},{"startTime":1947.045,"endTime":1950.616,"body":"to continuous improvement, I"},{"startTime":1950.616,"endTime":1952.131,"body":"mean, you, you really could."},{"startTime":1952.445,"endTime":1956.331,"body":"Sit down and look at the average of"},{"startTime":1952.445,"endTime":1956.331,"body":"how long it takes items to go from step"},{"startTime":1956.331,"endTime":1960.902,"body":"to step and have a good con, a deep"},{"startTime":1956.331,"endTime":1960.902,"body":"conversation, a data, a data-driven"},{"startTime":1960.902,"endTime":1962.531,"body":"conversation like emotions out of it."},{"startTime":1962.531,"endTime":1965.869,"body":"A data-driven conversation of let's look"},{"startTime":1962.531,"endTime":1965.869,"body":"at all the work items that took longer"},{"startTime":1965.869,"endTime":1970.412,"body":"than the average in the last three"},{"startTime":1965.869,"endTime":1970.412,"body":"cycles, whatever, I don't know, time"},{"startTime":1970.412,"endTime":1974.926,"body":"period to and figure out why they took"},{"startTime":1970.412,"endTime":1974.926,"body":"that long to see if there's some kind"},{"startTime":1974.931,"endTime":1976.926,"body":"of commonality to see if there's maybe."},{"startTime":1977.397,"endTime":1978.797,"body":"A whole bunch of flukes happened."},{"startTime":1979.112,"endTime":1980.94,"body":"Maybe something happened completely"},{"startTime":1979.112,"endTime":1980.94,"body":"the outta side of your control."},{"startTime":1980.94,"endTime":1983.207,"body":"Maybe there's nothing you could have"},{"startTime":1980.94,"endTime":1983.207,"body":"done and you just look at 'em all"},{"startTime":1983.212,"endTime":1984.512,"body":"and say nothing we could have done."},{"startTime":1984.512,"endTime":1985.054,"body":"And you moved it."},{"startTime":1985.283,"endTime":1987.74,"body":"At least you've done something"},{"startTime":1985.283,"endTime":1987.74,"body":"towards continuous improvement."},{"startTime":1987.74,"endTime":1991.483,"body":"You've inspected and decided that there's"},{"startTime":1987.74,"endTime":1991.483,"body":"really nothing that could have been done."},{"startTime":1991.488,"endTime":1992.635,"body":"There's just terrible coincidence."},{"startTime":1993.226,"endTime":1995.226,"body":"Let's cross our fingers and"},{"startTime":1993.226,"endTime":1995.226,"body":"hope it doesn't happen again."},{"startTime":1995.54,"endTime":1998.569,"body":"But more than likely,"},{"startTime":1995.54,"endTime":1998.569,"body":"you will look at that."},{"startTime":1998.954,"endTime":2002.354,"body":"List of things and say, well, in"},{"startTime":1998.954,"endTime":2002.354,"body":"this one we had to wait on whatever."},{"startTime":2002.412,"endTime":2004.526,"body":"We probably should have never"},{"startTime":2002.412,"endTime":2004.526,"body":"picked it up in the first place."},{"startTime":2004.812,"endTime":2009.583,"body":"This one, we had this blow up in"},{"startTime":2004.812,"endTime":2009.583,"body":"production and we just forgot to take it."},{"startTime":2009.583,"endTime":2010.012,"body":"Whatever."},{"startTime":2010.012,"endTime":2011.554,"body":"Maybe we need to be more diligent."},{"startTime":2011.697,"endTime":2013.469,"body":"This one, we had a problem."},{"startTime":2013.469,"endTime":2017.44,"body":"It was, we didn't expect it to be"},{"startTime":2013.469,"endTime":2017.44,"body":"so to, to, to truly talk to the"},{"startTime":2017.44,"endTime":2019.869,"body":"reasons with the data on the table."},{"startTime":2020.154,"endTime":2022.154,"body":"Not blame anyone, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2022.212,"endTime":2025.383,"body":"Talk, talk through the work,"},{"startTime":2022.212,"endTime":2025.383,"body":"not through the people, right?"},{"startTime":2025.44,"endTime":2027.44,"body":"And have a, a conversation in each."},{"startTime":2027.44,"endTime":2028.526,"body":"So pick a step."},{"startTime":2028.84,"endTime":2029.897,"body":"What's your worst step?"},{"startTime":2029.983,"endTime":2031.469,"body":"How can we approve that worst step?"},{"startTime":2031.869,"endTime":2036.126,"body":"And if you're having a"},{"startTime":2031.869,"endTime":2036.126,"body":"throughput discussion, right?"},{"startTime":2036.573,"endTime":2036.85,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2036.869,"endTime":2040.316,"body":"It could be the whole cycle, it could"},{"startTime":2036.869,"endTime":2040.316,"body":"be one particular step in the cycle,"},{"startTime":2040.316,"endTime":2044.021,"body":"whatever doesn't matter for this"},{"startTime":2040.316,"endTime":2044.021,"body":"conversation you can have a real deep"},{"startTime":2044.164,"endTime":2046.25,"body":"continuous improvement conversation."},{"startTime":2046.678,"endTime":2048.907,"body":"If you've got those"},{"startTime":2046.678,"endTime":2048.907,"body":"metrics in front of you."},{"startTime":2049.593,"endTime":2049.935,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2049.983,"endTime":2051.097,"body":"That's, those are great points."},{"startTime":2051.097,"endTime":2054.812,"body":"So the, the discussion you're having"},{"startTime":2051.097,"endTime":2054.812,"body":"at that point in the continuous"},{"startTime":2054.812,"endTime":2058.983,"body":"improvement realm, to your point right,"},{"startTime":2054.812,"endTime":2058.983,"body":"they, they are evidence-based, right?"},{"startTime":2059.183,"endTime":2060.326,"body":"So that's the first thing, right?"},{"startTime":2060.326,"endTime":2063.731,"body":"Yeah and they are historical, but"},{"startTime":2060.326,"endTime":2063.731,"body":"you can look at those as a team and"},{"startTime":2063.731,"endTime":2065.973,"body":"say, Here's where we need to focus."},{"startTime":2065.973,"endTime":2067.345,"body":"So select where your focus is."},{"startTime":2067.345,"endTime":2070.24,"body":"You can't focus on everything"},{"startTime":2067.345,"endTime":2070.24,"body":"and then improve on that."},{"startTime":2070.24,"endTime":2070.316,"body":"You can."},{"startTime":2070.697,"endTime":2071.954,"body":"You can, but you won't get anywhere."},{"startTime":2072.297,"endTime":2072.497,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2072.497,"endTime":2076.316,"body":"So that's the other thing I wanna"},{"startTime":2072.497,"endTime":2076.316,"body":"just quickly mention is, You"},{"startTime":2076.316,"endTime":2080.069,"body":"can do this even if you're using"},{"startTime":2076.316,"endTime":2080.069,"body":"Scrum, it's not just kanban."},{"startTime":2080.088,"endTime":2080.259,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2080.316,"endTime":2080.573,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2080.669,"endTime":2084.897,"body":"And most m tools chart, that chart"},{"startTime":2080.669,"endTime":2084.897,"body":"works regard in Jira that chart"},{"startTime":2084.902,"endTime":2086.297,"body":"works regardless of regardless."},{"startTime":2086.302,"endTime":2086.869,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2086.873,"endTime":2089.612,"body":"And, and in most m tools, right,"},{"startTime":2086.873,"endTime":2089.612,"body":"you can, you can derive that chart."},{"startTime":2089.659,"endTime":2091.193,"body":"It's often called cumulative flow diagram."},{"startTime":2091.545,"endTime":2091.631,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2091.635,"endTime":2095.716,"body":"Where it lets you identify where"},{"startTime":2091.635,"endTime":2095.716,"body":"the bottlenecks are these are great"},{"startTime":2095.716,"endTime":2097.916,"body":"tools for you to look at as a team."},{"startTime":2098.259,"endTime":2099.716,"body":"On a regular basis."},{"startTime":2099.716,"endTime":2099.802,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2100.573,"endTime":2104.231,"body":"Typically the best place to do that"},{"startTime":2100.573,"endTime":2104.231,"body":"might be a retrospective or you don't"},{"startTime":2104.231,"endTime":2106.802,"body":"have to wait for a retrospective,"},{"startTime":2104.231,"endTime":2106.802,"body":"you're experiencing a bottleneck."},{"startTime":2107.088,"endTime":2110.488,"body":"Anytime is fine to have"},{"startTime":2107.088,"endTime":2110.488,"body":"that discussion as a team."},{"startTime":2110.831,"endTime":2111.659,"body":"Have it as a team."},{"startTime":2111.659,"endTime":2112.345,"body":"No blaming."},{"startTime":2112.459,"endTime":2112.573,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2112.631,"endTime":2114.869,"body":"Right tackle the problem, not"},{"startTime":2112.631,"endTime":2114.869,"body":"the person or not the people."},{"startTime":2115.688,"endTime":2117.345,"body":"I think you golden if you can do that."},{"startTime":2117.35,"endTime":2120.235,"body":"Let's move to summarize kind of"},{"startTime":2117.35,"endTime":2120.235,"body":"what we learned in this podcast."},{"startTime":2120.288,"endTime":2122.513,"body":"I think the number one takeaway"},{"startTime":2120.288,"endTime":2122.513,"body":"here is you should build data."},{"startTime":2122.532,"endTime":2125.084,"body":"If you don't have data like"},{"startTime":2122.532,"endTime":2125.084,"body":"you, you definitely shouldn't."},{"startTime":2125.313,"endTime":2130.913,"body":"You should be quantitative, not"},{"startTime":2125.313,"endTime":2130.913,"body":"qualitative, in looking at decisions of"},{"startTime":2130.913,"endTime":2132.484,"body":"what to improve and what not to improve."},{"startTime":2133.313,"endTime":2135.436,"body":"For certain you should"},{"startTime":2133.313,"endTime":2135.436,"body":"involve the whole team."},{"startTime":2135.636,"endTime":2135.808,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2135.865,"endTime":2137.303,"body":"E e every time that you can."},{"startTime":2137.446,"endTime":2141.236,"body":"And you, you should try to get the"},{"startTime":2137.446,"endTime":2141.236,"body":"whole team learning new skills of the"},{"startTime":2141.313,"endTime":2144.284,"body":"like for example, the one to one-to-one"},{"startTime":2141.313,"endTime":2144.284,"body":"type of thing we talked about before."},{"startTime":2144.341,"endTime":2144.427,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2144.77,"endTime":2148.16,"body":"And you know, deal with new work and"},{"startTime":2144.77,"endTime":2148.16,"body":"unknown work and stuff like that in,"},{"startTime":2148.16,"endTime":2151.932,"body":"in its own little time box, its own"},{"startTime":2148.16,"endTime":2151.932,"body":"little area so it doesn't blow up and"},{"startTime":2151.932,"endTime":2153.503,"body":"impact and take over your whole thing."},{"startTime":2154.017,"endTime":2156.074,"body":"Um, like maybe a, a fair point."},{"startTime":2156.603,"endTime":2159.279,"body":"Maybe a fair point that we didn't"},{"startTime":2156.603,"endTime":2159.279,"body":"talk about would be well, what if I"},{"startTime":2159.279,"endTime":2162.593,"body":"deal with a lot of unknown support"},{"startTime":2159.279,"endTime":2162.593,"body":"work, you know, whi, which I kind"},{"startTime":2162.593,"endTime":2165.765,"body":"of also would've ascribed to like,"},{"startTime":2162.593,"endTime":2165.765,"body":"well, you can have a kanban lane for"},{"startTime":2165.765,"endTime":2167.365,"body":"putting out fires and Sure, sure."},{"startTime":2167.365,"endTime":2167.965,"body":"We, us, yeah."},{"startTime":2167.965,"endTime":2170.965,"body":"That's what we usually set up is"},{"startTime":2167.965,"endTime":2170.965,"body":"a, an expedite lane or a fire lane."},{"startTime":2171.336,"endTime":2174.079,"body":"So, yeah, I mean, just because"},{"startTime":2171.336,"endTime":2174.079,"body":"you have unknowns doesn't mean"},{"startTime":2174.108,"endTime":2175.422,"body":"you can't use these techniques."},{"startTime":2175.427,"endTime":2175.622,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2175.622,"endTime":2176.393,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2176.87,"endTime":2182.813,"body":"If you do these steps, eventually you"},{"startTime":2176.87,"endTime":2182.813,"body":"get to a point where the work items"},{"startTime":2182.813,"endTime":2186.07,"body":"end up being the same size and at the"},{"startTime":2182.813,"endTime":2186.07,"body":"point where you, at the point where you"},{"startTime":2186.07,"endTime":2189.013,"body":"have a team agreement, will we, where"},{"startTime":2186.07,"endTime":2189.013,"body":"the work items will be the same size."},{"startTime":2189.613,"endTime":2192.746,"body":"We're not gonna estimate things"},{"startTime":2189.613,"endTime":2192.746,"body":"If we truly believe that we"},{"startTime":2192.746,"endTime":2194.546,"body":"don't know, we're unsure."},{"startTime":2194.546,"endTime":2195.032,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2195.489,"endTime":2198.546,"body":"You're gonna get to a point where"},{"startTime":2195.489,"endTime":2198.546,"body":"basically you're, if you all agree,"},{"startTime":2198.546,"endTime":2202.803,"body":"one, two, and threes are threes or"},{"startTime":2198.546,"endTime":2202.803,"body":"whatever, you know, whatever you pick."},{"startTime":2202.86,"endTime":2202.974,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2203.003,"endTime":2206.374,"body":"Or you all agree that like, Hey, if it's"},{"startTime":2203.003,"endTime":2206.374,"body":"over eight, there's too much unknown."},{"startTime":2206.374,"endTime":2208.032,"body":"We don't want to deal with"},{"startTime":2206.374,"endTime":2208.032,"body":"it, we need to break it down."},{"startTime":2208.66,"endTime":2212.555,"body":"You'll eventually get to a point where"},{"startTime":2208.66,"endTime":2212.555,"body":"your refinement process kind of weeds"},{"startTime":2212.555,"endTime":2216.527,"body":"all this stuff out and there's just no"},{"startTime":2212.555,"endTime":2216.527,"body":"point anymore in talking about estimation."},{"startTime":2216.813,"endTime":2218.613,"body":"And you'll be living in the future."},{"startTime":2218.67,"endTime":2221.441,"body":"You will be, you'll be"},{"startTime":2218.67,"endTime":2221.441,"body":"in the flow rate world."},{"startTime":2221.67,"endTime":2225.051,"body":"You'll be talking about number of"},{"startTime":2221.67,"endTime":2225.051,"body":"stories per item, number of days,"},{"startTime":2225.232,"endTime":2227.07,"body":"four days, five days, whatever days."},{"startTime":2227.555,"endTime":2227.898,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2227.927,"endTime":2229.27,"body":"So hopefully this was useful."},{"startTime":2229.346,"endTime":2232.717,"body":"Certainly let us know other topics"},{"startTime":2229.346,"endTime":2232.717,"body":"that you would like us to tackle."},{"startTime":2233.117,"endTime":2235.936,"body":"Go ArguingAgile.com and"},{"startTime":2233.117,"endTime":2235.936,"body":"yeah, just like Clint did."},{"startTime":2236.051,"endTime":2237.565,"body":"I think that's probably it."},{"startTime":2237.879,"endTime":2238.308,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":2238.365,"endTime":2238.736,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":2238.736,"endTime":2240.708,"body":"Clint, hopefully we"},{"startTime":2238.736,"endTime":2240.708,"body":"answered your question."},{"startTime":2240.751,"endTime":2243.489,"body":"Like, and subscribe folks like,"},{"startTime":2240.751,"endTime":2243.489,"body":"and subscribe if we answer your"},{"startTime":2243.489,"endTime":2245.384,"body":"question and if we didn't answer"},{"startTime":2243.489,"endTime":2245.384,"body":"your question like, and subscribe"},{"startTime":2245.451,"endTime":2246.87,"body":"Like, and subscribe Scribe Anyway."}]}