{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.571,"body":"Are you on a team and you feel"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.571,"body":"the pace is not sustainable?"},{"startTime":2.571,"endTime":4.685,"body":"Are you on a team and you're burning out?"},{"startTime":4.752,"endTime":6.323,"body":"that's what we're gonna talk about today."},{"startTime":6.328,"endTime":7.181,"body":"Working at a sustainable pace."},{"startTime":7.561,"endTime":9.561,"body":"I don't hear this covered"},{"startTime":7.561,"endTime":9.561,"body":"in the agile space."},{"startTime":9.657,"endTime":12.514,"body":"And also, there's some bullet points"},{"startTime":9.657,"endTime":12.514,"body":"in the Agile manifesto that I don't"},{"startTime":12.514,"endTime":16.872,"body":"see thought leaders I'm getting real"},{"startTime":12.514,"endTime":16.872,"body":"sassy with already I don't, I don't see"},{"startTime":16.872,"endTime":18.41,"body":"them posting about this is one of them."},{"startTime":18.677,"endTime":21.244,"body":"There are some things that I see"},{"startTime":18.677,"endTime":21.244,"body":"people online posting about some"},{"startTime":21.244,"endTime":24.987,"body":"common things, and then there's some"},{"startTime":21.244,"endTime":24.987,"body":"things I never see go up, like the"},{"startTime":24.987,"endTime":28.644,"body":"line about contracts, for example,"},{"startTime":24.987,"endTime":28.644,"body":"that we did a whole podcast about."},{"startTime":28.644,"endTime":28.901,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":29.129,"endTime":29.615,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":29.815,"endTime":30.91,"body":"Do you remember the number please?"},{"startTime":30.915,"endTime":31.758,"body":"Uh, nope."},{"startTime":31.758,"endTime":32.358,"body":"No idea."},{"startTime":32.358,"endTime":35.815,"body":"And nobody else does either cuz nobody"},{"startTime":32.358,"endTime":35.815,"body":"listened to it because it contracts."},{"startTime":35.815,"endTime":36.101,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":36.472,"endTime":37.587,"body":"This is, this is gonna be a good one."},{"startTime":37.587,"endTime":39.829,"body":"we have, Lisa here on our"},{"startTime":37.587,"endTime":39.829,"body":"first time on the podcast."},{"startTime":39.87,"endTime":40.908,"body":"Hi Lisa Hey, Lisa."},{"startTime":41.289,"endTime":41.861,"body":"Hey, how's it going?"},{"startTime":42.261,"endTime":43.747,"body":"And uh, stormy is back."},{"startTime":43.804,"endTime":45.118,"body":"Uh, Stormy is back along with Ed"},{"startTime":45.766,"endTime":45.975,"body":"up."},{"startTime":46.223,"endTime":47.775,"body":"Oh, no, don't, don't do that."},{"startTime":47.956,"endTime":48.642,"body":"Oh my gosh."},{"startTime":48.813,"endTime":50.442,"body":"We can't, we're gonna have"},{"startTime":48.813,"endTime":50.442,"body":"to bleep out everything!"},{"startTime":50.442,"endTime":51.328,"body":"I don't know today's world."},{"startTime":51.328,"endTime":52.099,"body":"Any, any signs."},{"startTime":52.099,"endTime":52.699,"body":"Questionable, my gosh."},{"startTime":52.756,"endTime":54.499,"body":"Everything is taking the wrong way."},{"startTime":54.861,"endTime":55.137,"body":"Geez."},{"startTime":55.299,"endTime":57.651,"body":"I can give you some questionable"},{"startTime":55.299,"endTime":57.651,"body":"signs, but I'm sure you can One of 'em."},{"startTime":57.67,"endTime":58.413,"body":"Yeah, please don't."},{"startTime":58.704,"endTime":62.808,"body":"So, Lisa and Stormy your background"},{"startTime":58.704,"endTime":62.808,"body":"is in healthcare and Ed and I,"},{"startTime":62.808,"endTime":64.466,"body":"our backgrounds are both in tech."},{"startTime":64.761,"endTime":67.447,"body":"I'd like to kick it off by,"},{"startTime":64.761,"endTime":67.447,"body":"giving the textbook example of,"},{"startTime":67.447,"endTime":68.218,"body":"of what we're talking about."},{"startTime":68.274,"endTime":69.988,"body":"Let's start with the Agile Manifesto."},{"startTime":69.988,"endTime":70.902,"body":"Let's start with that, right?"},{"startTime":70.902,"endTime":73.102,"body":"The principles for the Agile manifesto."},{"startTime":73.102,"endTime":75.817,"body":"So tha tha thanks 75% of the audience."},{"startTime":75.817,"endTime":76.702,"body":"It was good to have you here."},{"startTime":76.702,"endTime":77.417,"body":"Please subscribe."},{"startTime":77.445,"endTime":78.245,"body":"Principle number eight."},{"startTime":78.25,"endTime":80.502,"body":"But for everyone else, like"},{"startTime":78.25,"endTime":80.502,"body":"principle number eight in the"},{"startTime":80.531,"endTime":81.361,"body":"Agile manifesto, here we go."},{"startTime":81.764,"endTime":84.279,"body":"Agile processes promote"},{"startTime":81.764,"endTime":84.279,"body":"sustainable development."},{"startTime":84.65,"endTime":87.936,"body":"The sponsors, developers, and"},{"startTime":84.65,"endTime":87.936,"body":"users should be able to maintain"},{"startTime":87.936,"endTime":89.879,"body":"a constant pace indefinitely."},{"startTime":90.269,"endTime":94.084,"body":"let's cut over to the scrum guide"},{"startTime":90.269,"endTime":94.084,"body":"For those of you, using Scrum, or"},{"startTime":94.089,"endTime":96.998,"body":"for those of you Scrum trainers"},{"startTime":94.089,"endTime":96.998,"body":"that have wandered into the wrong"},{"startTime":96.998,"endTime":98.35,"body":"bar, talking about the Scrum team."},{"startTime":98.493,"endTime":102.121,"body":"Working in sprints at a"},{"startTime":98.493,"endTime":102.121,"body":"sustainable pace improves the"},{"startTime":102.126,"endTime":104.436,"body":"Scrum team's focus and consistency."},{"startTime":104.912,"endTime":108.569,"body":"I feel you could cut the scrum team"},{"startTime":104.912,"endTime":108.569,"body":"out of that and it generally, it"},{"startTime":108.569,"endTime":111.426,"body":"would be applicable to pretty much any"},{"startTime":108.569,"endTime":111.426,"body":"team, like working at a sustainable"},{"startTime":111.426,"endTime":113.541,"body":"pace improves, focusing consistency."},{"startTime":113.721,"endTime":115.921,"body":"Stormy, when we started this podcast,"},{"startTime":113.721,"endTime":115.921,"body":"you had an interesting question."},{"startTime":115.921,"endTime":117.235,"body":"You're like, what does sustainable mean?"},{"startTime":117.263,"endTime":119.235,"body":"and what did you call all, all"},{"startTime":117.263,"endTime":119.235,"body":"of our original definitions."},{"startTime":119.359,"endTime":119.94,"body":"Ambiguous."},{"startTime":119.968,"endTime":120.549,"body":"Ambiguous."},{"startTime":120.787,"endTime":126.687,"body":"I don't think sustainable pace means"},{"startTime":120.787,"endTime":126.687,"body":"the same thing to each organization, to"},{"startTime":126.687,"endTime":130.782,"body":"each person within that organization,"},{"startTime":126.687,"endTime":130.782,"body":"or each e even to each individual,"},{"startTime":130.782,"endTime":134.535,"body":"individual project so sustainable"},{"startTime":130.782,"endTime":134.535,"body":"pace is going to mean something very"},{"startTime":134.535,"endTime":138.202,"body":"different to different people at"},{"startTime":134.535,"endTime":138.202,"body":"different times, given the context."},{"startTime":138.706,"endTime":140.163,"body":"Every team has its own pace."},{"startTime":140.454,"endTime":142.282,"body":"And that definition changes, like Yep."},{"startTime":142.825,"endTime":145.54,"body":"You know, depend depending on what"},{"startTime":142.825,"endTime":145.54,"body":"they're, they're being expected to"},{"startTime":145.54,"endTime":149.292,"body":"deliver, and the maturity of that"},{"startTime":145.54,"endTime":149.292,"body":"team and the culture within the"},{"startTime":149.292,"endTime":151.444,"body":"organization all of those things"},{"startTime":151.838,"endTime":156.695,"body":"also have a theory that everybody has a"},{"startTime":151.838,"endTime":156.695,"body":"story about a time in their career where"},{"startTime":156.695,"endTime":159.414,"body":"they were working at a unsustainable pace."},{"startTime":159.414,"endTime":162.929,"body":"They might not be able to agree"},{"startTime":159.414,"endTime":162.929,"body":"on what sustainable is, but I"},{"startTime":162.933,"endTime":166.529,"body":"think everybody can point out"},{"startTime":162.933,"endTime":166.529,"body":"what unsustainable definitely is."},{"startTime":166.948,"endTime":170.833,"body":"I remember in an organization that I"},{"startTime":166.948,"endTime":170.833,"body":"was in where I was a manager in the"},{"startTime":170.833,"endTime":175.538,"body":"organization and as a manager in the"},{"startTime":170.833,"endTime":175.538,"body":"organization, you, you just get to"},{"startTime":175.538,"endTime":179.967,"body":"that point where you're like invited to"},{"startTime":175.538,"endTime":179.967,"body":"leadership meetings, leadership meetings,"},{"startTime":180.224,"endTime":184.814,"body":"and uh, your HR has regular conversations"},{"startTime":180.224,"endTime":184.814,"body":"about what they expect from you and"},{"startTime":184.814,"endTime":187.243,"body":"you're hiring people and that kind of"},{"startTime":184.814,"endTime":187.243,"body":"stuff, and dealing with discipline."},{"startTime":187.271,"endTime":190.881,"body":"Anyway the point is like, I, I, I, I"},{"startTime":187.271,"endTime":190.881,"body":"distinctly remember that period of my"},{"startTime":190.886,"endTime":194.557,"body":"life because you would wake up in the"},{"startTime":190.886,"endTime":194.557,"body":"morning, Immediately check your phone"},{"startTime":194.7,"endTime":197.929,"body":"to see what fires were going on and"},{"startTime":194.7,"endTime":197.929,"body":"what fights you were about to get into."},{"startTime":198.786,"endTime":202.243,"body":"And you'd get roped into all the"},{"startTime":198.786,"endTime":202.243,"body":"fights that your employees were in."},{"startTime":202.871,"endTime":206.162,"body":"You would see stuff coming, and you'd"},{"startTime":202.871,"endTime":206.162,"body":"try to head it off before it impacted"},{"startTime":206.162,"endTime":210.248,"body":"either your team or your manager and the"},{"startTime":206.162,"endTime":210.248,"body":"leadership above you because you're gonna,"},{"startTime":210.59,"endTime":212.448,"body":"you, you, you can't hide from either one."},{"startTime":213.162,"endTime":216.276,"body":"And I just remember I remember going"},{"startTime":213.162,"endTime":216.276,"body":"into the office every day, that was,"},{"startTime":216.362,"endTime":219.752,"body":"I was, I was I was exercising a lot"},{"startTime":216.362,"endTime":219.752,"body":"at that point in my life actually."},{"startTime":219.809,"endTime":225.209,"body":"I was, I, I got to work at about"},{"startTime":219.809,"endTime":225.209,"body":"7:00 AM and I'd go on a 45 minute"},{"startTime":225.209,"endTime":229.457,"body":"run and then I'd shower, I'd go up"},{"startTime":225.209,"endTime":229.457,"body":"to work, when most employees were"},{"startTime":229.457,"endTime":231.257,"body":"just like rolling into the office."},{"startTime":231.914,"endTime":236.167,"body":"And I needed to be there before most of"},{"startTime":231.914,"endTime":236.167,"body":"the managers and most of the employee."},{"startTime":236.195,"endTime":238.138,"body":"Most of the managers, definitely"},{"startTime":236.195,"endTime":238.138,"body":"most of the employees got there."},{"startTime":238.309,"endTime":241.709,"body":"I needed to be there cuz if I"},{"startTime":238.309,"endTime":241.709,"body":"wasn't, I would get flack for"},{"startTime":241.738,"endTime":243.814,"body":"not being, what was it visible."},{"startTime":243.843,"endTime":243.929,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":244.529,"endTime":246.214,"body":"Not having a visible leadership process."},{"startTime":246.219,"endTime":246.271,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":246.271,"endTime":246.814,"body":"You're not present."},{"startTime":246.819,"endTime":247.157,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":247.157,"endTime":247.348,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":247.424,"endTime":248.109,"body":"You're never here."},{"startTime":248.414,"endTime":248.759,"body":"That's what I would hear."},{"startTime":248.764,"endTime":248.948,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":249.157,"endTime":252.071,"body":"And that was the, management"},{"startTime":249.157,"endTime":252.071,"body":"culture at that organization."},{"startTime":252.157,"endTime":253.671,"body":"You know, you were not"},{"startTime":252.157,"endTime":253.671,"body":"allowed one slip up."},{"startTime":253.871,"endTime":254.357,"body":"I drove in."},{"startTime":254.357,"endTime":255.157,"body":"I didn't see your car."},{"startTime":255.386,"endTime":256.043,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":256.138,"endTime":261.624,"body":"I wake up at 5 45 in the morning and"},{"startTime":256.138,"endTime":261.624,"body":"I'm already prepping for my first fight"},{"startTime":262.1,"endTime":264.924,"body":"and I remember when I, when I left that"},{"startTime":262.1,"endTime":264.924,"body":"place, I remember the last conversation"},{"startTime":264.924,"endTime":269.743,"body":"I had was with somebody that that, I"},{"startTime":264.924,"endTime":269.743,"body":"really didn't get along with in the end."},{"startTime":270.462,"endTime":273.719,"body":"We had worked together for 10 plus"},{"startTime":270.462,"endTime":273.719,"body":"years, and I remember telling him,"},{"startTime":273.719,"endTime":276.729,"body":"I I, I, I told him you need to"},{"startTime":273.719,"endTime":276.729,"body":"start taking better care of yourself"},{"startTime":276.929,"endTime":278.329,"body":"because these people will kill you."},{"startTime":278.871,"endTime":281.3,"body":"They will work you to death"},{"startTime":278.871,"endTime":281.3,"body":"and when you are dead."},{"startTime":281.305,"endTime":281.462,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":281.986,"endTime":284.072,"body":"They will get your replacement"},{"startTime":281.986,"endTime":284.072,"body":"in the door in two weeks."},{"startTime":284.614,"endTime":285.443,"body":"And no one will ever talk."},{"startTime":285.443,"endTime":285.5,"body":"No."},{"startTime":285.586,"endTime":286.257,"body":"Talk about you again."},{"startTime":286.305,"endTime":288.619,"body":"Well, I guess at what point did"},{"startTime":286.305,"endTime":288.619,"body":"you know it was unsustainable"},{"startTime":288.624,"endTime":289.534,"body":"and you needed to get out?"},{"startTime":289.586,"endTime":292.3,"body":"I mean, you told us the story, but not"},{"startTime":289.586,"endTime":292.3,"body":"at what point was it unsustainable?"},{"startTime":292.357,"endTime":293.872,"body":"You had healthy coping habits."},{"startTime":293.872,"endTime":296.567,"body":"I think it was, I think it was no,"},{"startTime":293.872,"endTime":296.567,"body":"I always knew it was unsustainable."},{"startTime":296.681,"endTime":298.424,"body":"It was the coping habits that that."},{"startTime":298.681,"endTime":300.157,"body":"That made you survive longer?"},{"startTime":300.157,"endTime":301.282,"body":"That made me survive a little bit longer."},{"startTime":301.287,"endTime":301.472,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":301.786,"endTime":303.186,"body":"But it, but it's some resiliency."},{"startTime":303.319,"endTime":306.043,"body":"It, it wasn't sustainable cause"},{"startTime":303.319,"endTime":306.043,"body":"it was always headed to I'm gonna"},{"startTime":306.043,"endTime":306.986,"body":"quit or they're gonna fire me."},{"startTime":307.034,"endTime":308.434,"body":"I always knew it was headed to that."},{"startTime":309.005,"endTime":311.376,"body":"That's where I actually missed"},{"startTime":309.005,"endTime":311.376,"body":"the commute because the gym"},{"startTime":311.381,"endTime":312.605,"body":"was on my way to the office."},{"startTime":312.605,"endTime":312.805,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":312.81,"endTime":313.091,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":313.176,"endTime":315.376,"body":"And so it was, since it was"},{"startTime":313.176,"endTime":315.376,"body":"on the way I was hitting the"},{"startTime":315.376,"endTime":317.405,"body":"gym, now I'm not commuting."},{"startTime":317.434,"endTime":319.576,"body":"I'm rolling out of bed, grabbing"},{"startTime":317.434,"endTime":319.576,"body":"my phone, and going right to work."},{"startTime":319.605,"endTime":324.462,"body":"Yep and so when you talk about sustainable"},{"startTime":319.605,"endTime":324.462,"body":"pace, for me, I used to use the commute"},{"startTime":324.491,"endTime":326.519,"body":"Right, as downtime to transition mm-hmm."},{"startTime":326.595,"endTime":327.519,"body":"From work to home."},{"startTime":327.519,"endTime":327.521,"body":"It does."},{"startTime":327.526,"endTime":329.034,"body":"I was in a better mood at home."},{"startTime":329.038,"endTime":329.072,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":329.462,"endTime":332.653,"body":"Because I had that time coming"},{"startTime":329.462,"endTime":332.653,"body":"home from my day at work, not"},{"startTime":332.653,"endTime":333.834,"body":"just walking down the stairs."},{"startTime":333.862,"endTime":336.119,"body":"It's a transition rest period to"},{"startTime":333.862,"endTime":336.119,"body":"where you can kind of restart."},{"startTime":336.119,"endTime":338.486,"body":"Set or take that time to process"},{"startTime":336.119,"endTime":338.486,"body":"the day, not take work home"},{"startTime":338.486,"endTime":339.41,"body":"with you, listen to a podcast."},{"startTime":339.467,"endTime":339.867,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":339.943,"endTime":340.362,"body":"Do some growth."},{"startTime":340.362,"endTime":341.857,"body":"Listen to an audiobook."},{"startTime":341.862,"endTime":346.801,"body":"That's, and, and so some, that to"},{"startTime":341.862,"endTime":346.801,"body":"me was a healthy aspect mm-hmm."},{"startTime":346.876,"endTime":347.486,"body":"Of the commute."},{"startTime":347.743,"endTime":348.019,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":348.229,"endTime":350.257,"body":"That when we talk about now,"},{"startTime":348.229,"endTime":350.257,"body":"oh, I'm more productive now."},{"startTime":350.543,"endTime":351.143,"body":"Well, yeah."},{"startTime":351.143,"endTime":353.172,"body":"But you don't get to"},{"startTime":351.143,"endTime":353.172,"body":"leave your desk for lunch."},{"startTime":353.176,"endTime":355.2,"body":"You don't get to drive to the gym"},{"startTime":355.372,"endTime":359.143,"body":"so non-sustainable pace for me on"},{"startTime":355.372,"endTime":359.143,"body":"the healthcare perspective would be"},{"startTime":359.429,"endTime":365.448,"body":"on I guess nursing during Covid 19,"},{"startTime":359.429,"endTime":365.448,"body":"where nobody knew what was going on."},{"startTime":365.505,"endTime":370.048,"body":"Everybody's politically charged and you"},{"startTime":365.505,"endTime":370.048,"body":"know, none of that matters when you're"},{"startTime":370.048,"endTime":374.876,"body":"in our field, doctors, nurses we just"},{"startTime":370.048,"endTime":374.876,"body":"go in, we help people, we leave, and"},{"startTime":374.876,"endTime":378.345,"body":"all of a sudden you have people coming"},{"startTime":374.876,"endTime":378.345,"body":"in at high casualties, high acuity."},{"startTime":378.83,"endTime":380.888,"body":"You don't know how to treat them,"},{"startTime":378.83,"endTime":380.888,"body":"you don't know how it's spreading."},{"startTime":381.107,"endTime":384.259,"body":"Families can't come in, it gets"},{"startTime":381.107,"endTime":384.259,"body":"very stressful and then you just get"},{"startTime":384.259,"endTime":387.645,"body":"to this point where there's upper"},{"startTime":384.259,"endTime":387.645,"body":"leadership and management's telling,"},{"startTime":387.645,"endTime":391.94,"body":"okay, well, we're short, people are"},{"startTime":387.645,"endTime":391.94,"body":"quitting, people are sick, or they're"},{"startTime":392.102,"endTime":394.645,"body":"out for two weeks on quarantine and"},{"startTime":392.102,"endTime":394.645,"body":"all right, we're gonna need people"},{"startTime":394.645,"endTime":397.359,"body":"to pick up, pick up extra hours, and."},{"startTime":397.764,"endTime":399.735,"body":"And got to the point where nobody"},{"startTime":397.764,"endTime":399.735,"body":"wanted to pick up extra hours."},{"startTime":399.735,"endTime":402.421,"body":"Not even for overtime,"},{"startTime":399.735,"endTime":402.421,"body":"not even for the bonuses."},{"startTime":402.421,"endTime":403.707,"body":"They were increasing the bonuses."},{"startTime":404.021,"endTime":406.392,"body":"Everybody was burned out and too"},{"startTime":404.021,"endTime":406.392,"body":"tired like nobody wanted anymore."},{"startTime":406.392,"endTime":407.564,"body":"And then it became mandatory."},{"startTime":407.621,"endTime":410.907,"body":"And how long was that before the time"},{"startTime":407.621,"endTime":410.907,"body":"between It was volunteered and mandatory."},{"startTime":410.907,"endTime":412.307,"body":"What was about, what time was that?"},{"startTime":412.307,"endTime":414.593,"body":"Because that's when it became"},{"startTime":412.307,"endTime":414.593,"body":"unsustainable at that point."},{"startTime":414.598,"endTime":414.792,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":414.792,"endTime":417.364,"body":"Within unsustainable it"},{"startTime":414.792,"endTime":417.364,"body":"came, it's mandatory."},{"startTime":417.411,"endTime":420.84,"body":"It wasn't bad with the first"},{"startTime":417.411,"endTime":420.84,"body":"round, but delta wave here hit much"},{"startTime":420.84,"endTime":422.783,"body":"harder and killed a lot faster."},{"startTime":423.097,"endTime":428.402,"body":"And our specific population was much more"},{"startTime":423.097,"endTime":428.402,"body":"affected we were seeing patients die a"},{"startTime":428.402,"endTime":430.592,"body":"lot more . It was, it was really rough."},{"startTime":430.621,"endTime":433.302,"body":"But you know, people don't think about"},{"startTime":430.621,"endTime":433.302,"body":"like the, they were talking about"},{"startTime":433.302,"endTime":436.426,"body":"doing the mandatory if this becomes"},{"startTime":433.302,"endTime":436.426,"body":"to a high level, we're gonna have two"},{"startTime":436.426,"endTime":439.483,"body":"days on, two days off and that's it."},{"startTime":439.969,"endTime":443.759,"body":"There's further foresee feature and I was"},{"startTime":439.969,"endTime":443.759,"body":"like, all right, that is where I'm gonna"},{"startTime":443.759,"endTime":445.673,"body":"quit like that, that's where I'm done."},{"startTime":445.673,"endTime":446.626,"body":"What is a normal schedule?"},{"startTime":446.702,"endTime":449.445,"body":"I don't know what a normal schedule, A"},{"startTime":446.702,"endTime":449.445,"body":"normal schedule is three days a week and"},{"startTime":449.445,"endTime":453.302,"body":"a call shift every two to three weeks,"},{"startTime":449.445,"endTime":453.302,"body":"so 12 hours, which ends up being like"},{"startTime":453.307,"endTime":454.816,"body":"12 and a half, 13 after you give report."},{"startTime":454.821,"endTime":458.045,"body":"Cause if you go in early for a huddle"},{"startTime":454.821,"endTime":458.045,"body":"for my floor and then after and give"},{"startTime":458.045,"endTime":460.369,"body":"reports so that would be thir round then?"},{"startTime":460.426,"endTime":461.416,"body":"39 hours roughly?"},{"startTime":461.445,"endTime":461.721,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":461.969,"endTime":462.111,"body":"A week."},{"startTime":462.14,"endTime":462.312,"body":"Pretty much."},{"startTime":462.359,"endTime":462.635,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":462.635,"endTime":462.902,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":463.083,"endTime":465.14,"body":"So then we're doing three"},{"startTime":463.083,"endTime":465.14,"body":"thirteens would be 39 hours."},{"startTime":465.254,"endTime":465.511,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":465.511,"endTime":469.197,"body":"So then we do probably like an extra 12,"},{"startTime":465.511,"endTime":469.197,"body":"but you know, it's 12 hours straight."},{"startTime":469.54,"endTime":470.597,"body":"We usually don't get a break."},{"startTime":470.969,"endTime":474.921,"body":"I do like high risk critical care, high"},{"startTime":470.969,"endTime":474.921,"body":"acuity you know, insulin drips, magnesium"},{"startTime":474.921,"endTime":477.407,"body":"drips, really sick, really sick patients."},{"startTime":477.407,"endTime":480.35,"body":"And of course, with Covid,"},{"startTime":477.407,"endTime":480.35,"body":"everybody had to be tested."},{"startTime":480.407,"endTime":483.369,"body":"Everybody had to be checked it added"},{"startTime":480.407,"endTime":483.369,"body":"so much more to the triaging process."},{"startTime":483.369,"endTime":484.864,"body":"There was no room for people."},{"startTime":484.864,"endTime":486.807,"body":"It was, and then everybody came sick."},{"startTime":486.807,"endTime":489.492,"body":"And it just got to a point where"},{"startTime":486.807,"endTime":489.492,"body":"I was like, all right, if they"},{"startTime":489.492,"endTime":492.207,"body":"institute that, like I'm, I'm not"},{"startTime":489.492,"endTime":492.207,"body":"gonna be able to do this anymore."},{"startTime":492.207,"endTime":494.007,"body":"Like, I'm gonna have to"},{"startTime":492.207,"endTime":494.007,"body":"look for something else."},{"startTime":494.054,"endTime":497.426,"body":"We would have like maybe one unit"},{"startTime":494.054,"endTime":497.426,"body":"open and then the wave would come"},{"startTime":497.426,"endTime":499.426,"body":"and we would have eight floors full."},{"startTime":499.597,"endTime":500.283,"body":"It would go like that."},{"startTime":500.283,"endTime":505.483,"body":"Even here in Tampa, this pace kind of went"},{"startTime":500.283,"endTime":505.483,"body":"on and off for like a year and a half."},{"startTime":506.521,"endTime":508.178,"body":"so, yeah, I, I talked to"},{"startTime":506.521,"endTime":508.178,"body":"Lisa earlier about this."},{"startTime":508.178,"endTime":511.75,"body":"I was like, I, I, I'm trying not to turn"},{"startTime":508.178,"endTime":511.75,"body":"this into a podcast where we're bashing"},{"startTime":511.75,"endTime":513.092,"body":"on like the American medical system."},{"startTime":513.092,"endTime":515.578,"body":"Cause I, I realized that's not on"},{"startTime":513.092,"endTime":515.578,"body":"any of our points to talk about."},{"startTime":515.578,"endTime":518.635,"body":"It's like the system can't support stress."},{"startTime":518.692,"endTime":518.778,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":519.011,"endTime":520.95,"body":"It's like when there's a"},{"startTime":519.011,"endTime":520.95,"body":"hurricane and the phones go out."},{"startTime":520.95,"endTime":521.007,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":521.007,"endTime":521.607,"body":"Because it like mm-hmm."},{"startTime":521.864,"endTime":523.407,"body":"Well, we too many people are using that."},{"startTime":523.435,"endTime":524.159,"body":"We, we, we, oh, yeah."},{"startTime":524.159,"endTime":524.426,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":524.75,"endTime":527.588,"body":"We never expected so many people"},{"startTime":524.75,"endTime":527.588,"body":"to use the phone at the same time."},{"startTime":527.807,"endTime":529.569,"body":"Like, we're like, we're"},{"startTime":527.807,"endTime":529.569,"body":"not expecting hurricanes."},{"startTime":529.569,"endTime":529.797,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":530.102,"endTime":530.559,"body":"Like, yeah."},{"startTime":530.588,"endTime":530.864,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":530.921,"endTime":535.435,"body":"We are like the, the areas that get"},{"startTime":530.921,"endTime":535.435,"body":"major natural disasters, you probably"},{"startTime":535.435,"endTime":537.521,"body":"should anticipate and be ready."},{"startTime":537.55,"endTime":541.035,"body":"June to November is usually a pretty,"},{"startTime":537.55,"endTime":541.035,"body":"pretty reliable time to see a hurricane."},{"startTime":541.035,"endTime":543.321,"body":"In Florida it's, it's especially"},{"startTime":541.035,"endTime":543.321,"body":"August when it gets really hot."},{"startTime":543.321,"endTime":543.33,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":543.33,"endTime":543.892,"body":"Supercharged."},{"startTime":544.292,"endTime":545.322,"body":"And I'm not a meteorologist, but."},{"startTime":545.802,"endTime":546.43,"body":"I just feel it."},{"startTime":546.773,"endTime":547.145,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":547.23,"endTime":547.488,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":547.888,"endTime":548.002,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":548.002,"endTime":551.945,"body":"Like the hospitals in Florida are pretty,"},{"startTime":548.002,"endTime":551.945,"body":"are pretty prepared for unfortunately."},{"startTime":552.173,"endTime":552.288,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":552.288,"endTime":554.63,"body":"We've got like backups"},{"startTime":552.288,"endTime":554.63,"body":"to backups, to backups."},{"startTime":554.63,"endTime":556.716,"body":"So that's something we"},{"startTime":554.63,"endTime":556.716,"body":"do really well, actually."},{"startTime":556.888,"endTime":558.859,"body":"Yeah, but we're just talking about, we're"},{"startTime":556.888,"endTime":558.859,"body":"talking about the stress on the system."},{"startTime":559.021,"endTime":563.089,"body":"Sustain, so the system back ultimately"},{"startTime":559.021,"endTime":563.089,"body":"breaks down sustainable paces is"},{"startTime":563.093,"endTime":564.783,"body":"putting stress on a system, right."},{"startTime":564.916,"endTime":566.916,"body":"No matter what organization you're"},{"startTime":564.916,"endTime":566.916,"body":"in, whether it's a hospital, whether"},{"startTime":566.916,"endTime":568.03,"body":"it's a technology organization."},{"startTime":568.03,"endTime":568.202,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":568.23,"endTime":568.43,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":568.459,"endTime":571.173,"body":"Whether it's a manufacturing, it's"},{"startTime":568.459,"endTime":571.173,"body":"relatable or, or a car shop, right?"},{"startTime":571.173,"endTime":571.174,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":571.345,"endTime":571.402,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":571.402,"endTime":574.173,"body":"Probably because I've been delaying"},{"startTime":571.402,"endTime":574.173,"body":"the Deming podcast for so long,"},{"startTime":574.173,"endTime":577.688,"body":"have we not talked about how"},{"startTime":574.173,"endTime":577.688,"body":"systems take on a life their own."},{"startTime":577.692,"endTime":577.84,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":577.954,"endTime":577.992,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":578.107,"endTime":581.292,"body":"I mean, I understand that like people's"},{"startTime":578.107,"endTime":581.292,"body":"pushback to this will be, well,"},{"startTime":581.292,"endTime":582.978,"body":"system is just a group of people."},{"startTime":583.026,"endTime":585.683,"body":"Psychologically, yes, it"},{"startTime":583.026,"endTime":585.683,"body":"is just a group of people."},{"startTime":585.688,"endTime":591.769,"body":"However, there's this like diffusion of"},{"startTime":585.688,"endTime":591.769,"body":"responsibility of the system taking over."},{"startTime":592.226,"endTime":595.969,"body":"But if it's, but if it's just a group of"},{"startTime":592.226,"endTime":595.969,"body":"people, that group of people have emotions"},{"startTime":595.969,"endTime":599.54,"body":"and limited energy, just like I was gonna"},{"startTime":595.969,"endTime":599.54,"body":"say, like each individual has a certain"},{"startTime":599.54,"endTime":601.397,"body":"pace where they break down like a system."},{"startTime":601.397,"endTime":601.997,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":602.14,"endTime":605.226,"body":"They go to a certain point, they break"},{"startTime":602.14,"endTime":605.226,"body":"down, and in person is the same way."},{"startTime":605.226,"endTime":607.283,"body":"And each person's level to where"},{"startTime":605.226,"endTime":607.283,"body":"they break down is different."},{"startTime":607.578,"endTime":609.626,"body":"Certain people can"},{"startTime":607.578,"endTime":609.626,"body":"tolerate more than others."},{"startTime":609.692,"endTime":611.521,"body":"And that was the part of"},{"startTime":609.692,"endTime":611.521,"body":"Covid that was difficult."},{"startTime":611.521,"endTime":613.235,"body":"Some people  couldn't"},{"startTime":611.521,"endTime":613.235,"body":"emotionally handle mm-hmm."},{"startTime":613.464,"endTime":614.292,"body":"All the death that they saw."},{"startTime":614.297,"endTime":618.235,"body":"Other ones saw it all the time to where"},{"startTime":614.297,"endTime":618.235,"body":"they, the weekend I went to the icu I left"},{"startTime":618.24,"endTime":623.534,"body":"with like ptsd, where the other ICU nurses"},{"startTime":618.24,"endTime":623.534,"body":"did not, bat an  eyelash didn't cry."},{"startTime":623.534,"endTime":628.162,"body":"I was seeing things that still traumatized"},{"startTime":623.534,"endTime":628.162,"body":"me and they were not even fazed."},{"startTime":628.162,"endTime":628.991,"body":"Like, yeah, we see this all the time."},{"startTime":628.996,"endTime":629.477,"body":"I'm like, okay."},{"startTime":630.2,"endTime":630.991,"body":"Hmm, that's great."},{"startTime":630.991,"endTime":633.477,"body":"Like, I could not see that"},{"startTime":630.991,"endTime":633.477,"body":"every day I would be gone."},{"startTime":633.877,"endTime":635.477,"body":"So I don't know how they do it."},{"startTime":636.0,"endTime":640.772,"body":"I actually walked the line between"},{"startTime":636.0,"endTime":640.772,"body":"healthcare and, and healthcare IT and"},{"startTime":640.772,"endTime":645.857,"body":"product and, and so I see it from both"},{"startTime":640.772,"endTime":645.857,"body":"angles, but as far as my examples, in"},{"startTime":645.862,"endTime":649.457,"body":"regards to un unsustainable pace, so"},{"startTime":645.862,"endTime":649.457,"body":"I worked as a nur, a charge, a charged"},{"startTime":649.457,"endTime":654.257,"body":"nurse in the ICU for quite a few years"},{"startTime":649.457,"endTime":654.257,"body":"before I actually got into healthcare it"},{"startTime":654.972,"endTime":659.534,"body":"and related to multiple factors you know,"},{"startTime":654.972,"endTime":659.534,"body":"they always talk about a nursing shortage."},{"startTime":659.534,"endTime":660.877,"body":"There's always a nursing shortage, right?"},{"startTime":661.105,"endTime":661.248,"body":"Always."},{"startTime":661.248,"endTime":667.503,"body":"But this seemed to be a, a, an"},{"startTime":661.248,"endTime":667.503,"body":"exceptionally  rampant nursing shortage."},{"startTime":667.732,"endTime":672.456,"body":"And how much of that depends on what the"},{"startTime":667.732,"endTime":672.456,"body":"company I was working for was willing"},{"startTime":672.456,"endTime":676.884,"body":"to pay and how much they were, will"},{"startTime":672.456,"endTime":676.884,"body":"how much they, they, they were able"},{"startTime":676.884,"endTime":679.996,"body":"to kind of get nurses to actually do."},{"startTime":680.405,"endTime":683.062,"body":"So I worked on a 20 bed nursing ICU floor."},{"startTime":683.062,"endTime":684.348,"body":"So a little bit of context here."},{"startTime":684.491,"endTime":688.919,"body":"Typically in an icu, a nurse"},{"startTime":684.491,"endTime":688.919,"body":"should be assigned no more than"},{"startTime":688.919,"endTime":690.434,"body":"two critically ill patients."},{"startTime":690.434,"endTime":693.291,"body":"Sometimes one, if they are"},{"startTime":690.434,"endTime":693.291,"body":"exceptionally ill, right?"},{"startTime":693.291,"endTime":693.377,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":693.61,"endTime":695.319,"body":"But generally no more than two."},{"startTime":695.719,"endTime":701.143,"body":"Yeah it was consistent that, and"},{"startTime":695.719,"endTime":701.143,"body":"number one, we didn't have a manager"},{"startTime":701.143,"endTime":702.334,"body":"at the time, so this was, oh wow."},{"startTime":702.515,"endTime":705.115,"body":"This was the reason, this was"},{"startTime":702.515,"endTime":705.115,"body":"part of the reason for that."},{"startTime":705.405,"endTime":709.005,"body":"So we would come in and we would find out"},{"startTime":705.405,"endTime":709.005,"body":"we were fully staffed because it was our"},{"startTime":709.005,"endTime":712.805,"body":"responsibility to balance our schedule"},{"startTime":709.005,"endTime":712.805,"body":"as long as we balanced our schedule."},{"startTime":712.805,"endTime":713.262,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":713.348,"endTime":714.005,"body":"Good job."},{"startTime":714.034,"endTime":714.348,"body":"Yay."},{"startTime":714.348,"endTime":714.891,"body":"Well done."},{"startTime":714.891,"endTime":718.857,"body":"We are covered, but we would come in and"},{"startTime":714.891,"endTime":718.857,"body":"we would find out that we have 10 nurses."},{"startTime":718.862,"endTime":721.01,"body":"They're floating three"},{"startTime":718.862,"endTime":721.01,"body":"of them to another floor."},{"startTime":721.343,"endTime":721.505,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":722.057,"endTime":724.248,"body":"So now we're down to seven."},{"startTime":724.477,"endTime":725.734,"body":"We need to have a charge nurse."},{"startTime":725.734,"endTime":727.134,"body":"That charge nurse was me."},{"startTime":727.134,"endTime":730.315,"body":"I was responsible for"},{"startTime":727.134,"endTime":730.315,"body":"ultimately everything."},{"startTime":730.319,"endTime":734.772,"body":"Everything that every one of those"},{"startTime":730.319,"endTime":734.772,"body":"nurses did signed off on and mm-hmm."},{"startTime":735.019,"endTime":737.134,"body":"And every one of the patients wellbeing."},{"startTime":737.138,"endTime":737.248,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":737.848,"endTime":742.877,"body":"So what ended up, no, numerically what you"},{"startTime":737.848,"endTime":742.877,"body":"end up with is six nurses who are tripled"},{"startTime":743.162,"endTime":744.791,"body":"and a charge nurse taking two patients."},{"startTime":745.277,"endTime":747.267,"body":"And the charge nurse shouldn't"},{"startTime":745.277,"endTime":747.267,"body":"even be taking any patients."},{"startTime":747.324,"endTime":747.724,"body":"Any patients."},{"startTime":747.819,"endTime":748.296,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":748.505,"endTime":752.534,"body":"So can you, so from an, and, and,"},{"startTime":748.505,"endTime":752.534,"body":"and you have to think about this"},{"startTime":752.538,"endTime":755.543,"body":"too, it's a little bit different when"},{"startTime":752.538,"endTime":755.543,"body":"we're talking about healthcare it"},{"startTime":755.543,"endTime":758.719,"body":"is our responsibility to do no harm."},{"startTime":758.767,"endTime":763.181,"body":"So it's kind of a big deal so I was"},{"startTime":758.767,"endTime":763.181,"body":"the charge nurse, six other nurses"},{"startTime":763.186,"endTime":769.648,"body":"all tripled increasing the, the, the"},{"startTime":763.186,"endTime":769.648,"body":"probability of, of errors, right?"},{"startTime":769.648,"endTime":769.915,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":770.124,"endTime":770.41,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":770.438,"endTime":773.838,"body":"Again, increasing the probability"},{"startTime":770.438,"endTime":773.838,"body":"of potential patient harm."},{"startTime":773.838,"endTime":776.067,"body":"And I'm now responsible"},{"startTime":773.838,"endTime":776.067,"body":"all this, any incident."},{"startTime":776.181,"endTime":776.324,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":776.353,"endTime":776.867,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":776.934,"endTime":781.162,"body":"These were 12 hour shifts and"},{"startTime":776.934,"endTime":781.162,"body":"night shifts, which meant we were"},{"startTime":781.162,"endTime":783.905,"body":"very, we also had minimal support."},{"startTime":784.362,"endTime":787.391,"body":"Yeah over the night, the night"},{"startTime":784.362,"endTime":787.391,"body":"shift, which made us much better"},{"startTime":787.391,"endTime":789.162,"body":"nurses cuz we could do every thing."},{"startTime":789.162,"endTime":789.219,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":789.334,"endTime":790.353,"body":"So you know mm-hmm."},{"startTime":790.581,"endTime":793.124,"body":"Like hats off to all you"},{"startTime":790.581,"endTime":793.124,"body":"night nurses out there."},{"startTime":793.124,"endTime":793.496,"body":"I know you."},{"startTime":794.114,"endTime":799.228,"body":"So in this situation"},{"startTime":794.114,"endTime":799.228,"body":"there was no end in sight."},{"startTime":799.233,"endTime":799.285,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":799.371,"endTime":800.771,"body":"There wasn't a finish line."},{"startTime":800.823,"endTime":805.423,"body":"Additionally I didn't have a manager"},{"startTime":800.823,"endTime":805.423,"body":"that was staying overnight Sure."},{"startTime":805.509,"endTime":807.538,"body":"To take on a patient load."},{"startTime":807.538,"endTime":808.966,"body":"They were perfectly capable of doing it."},{"startTime":808.966,"endTime":809.595,"body":"But did they?"},{"startTime":809.709,"endTime":809.795,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":810.052,"endTime":810.395,"body":"No."},{"startTime":810.395,"endTime":813.623,"body":"So leadership management"},{"startTime":810.395,"endTime":813.623,"body":"were not stepping up."},{"startTime":813.623,"endTime":813.681,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":813.685,"endTime":815.195,"body":"And setting an example, number two."},{"startTime":815.2,"endTime":820.109,"body":"Yeah so I felt like, so I was basically"},{"startTime":815.2,"endTime":820.109,"body":"a lone wolf like, I need to take"},{"startTime":820.109,"endTime":823.852,"body":"care of me, but at the same time, I'm"},{"startTime":820.109,"endTime":823.852,"body":"responsible of all these other nurses."},{"startTime":823.852,"endTime":825.252,"body":"I'm responsible for patient care."},{"startTime":825.252,"endTime":826.538,"body":"So I have all of this on me."},{"startTime":826.595,"endTime":826.652,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":826.852,"endTime":829.481,"body":"And the one last thing"},{"startTime":826.852,"endTime":829.481,"body":"is this was hourly pay."},{"startTime":829.481,"endTime":830.652,"body":"So nurses work for hourly pay."},{"startTime":830.657,"endTime":831.538,"body":"They don't work for salary."},{"startTime":831.538,"endTime":834.766,"body":"So I don't know how much that kind"},{"startTime":831.538,"endTime":834.766,"body":"of fits in, but that's one of some of"},{"startTime":834.766,"endTime":839.166,"body":"the huge differences that I find when"},{"startTime":834.766,"endTime":839.166,"body":"I got into my PO position, where I"},{"startTime":839.166,"endTime":842.138,"body":"was working at an unsustainable pace."},{"startTime":842.452,"endTime":845.481,"body":"So I'll move over into"},{"startTime":842.452,"endTime":845.481,"body":"that genre right now."},{"startTime":845.481,"endTime":845.709,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":845.962,"endTime":847.5,"body":"So like can I pause for a moment?"},{"startTime":847.528,"endTime":847.728,"body":"Please?"},{"startTime":847.728,"endTime":847.871,"body":"Move it."},{"startTime":847.876,"endTime":848.328,"body":"Question."},{"startTime":848.385,"endTime":848.928,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":848.928,"endTime":852.843,"body":"So for, for the example you gave,"},{"startTime":848.928,"endTime":852.843,"body":"you gave a a perfect example where"},{"startTime":852.843,"endTime":856.814,"body":"it's not the hours worked, it's the"},{"startTime":852.843,"endTime":856.814,"body":"environment, it's all the other things"},{"startTime":856.814,"endTime":861.585,"body":"that go into what you have to do in"},{"startTime":856.814,"endTime":861.585,"body":"the amount of time you have to do it."},{"startTime":861.785,"endTime":866.376,"body":"So it's more of that qualitative"},{"startTime":861.785,"endTime":866.376,"body":"not quantitative correct scenario."},{"startTime":866.585,"endTime":870.5,"body":"And quality, if you even wanna bring"},{"startTime":866.585,"endTime":870.5,"body":"this back to development and all that."},{"startTime":870.5,"endTime":875.757,"body":"So quality absolutely is"},{"startTime":870.5,"endTime":875.757,"body":"impacted by this as well."},{"startTime":875.9,"endTime":876.014,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":876.071,"endTime":876.414,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":876.419,"endTime":881.709,"body":"And this quality is now th this"},{"startTime":876.419,"endTime":881.709,"body":"quality pertains once again to people."},{"startTime":882.547,"endTime":882.833,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":882.985,"endTime":883.69,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":884.004,"endTime":887.204,"body":"So many, so many people think that"},{"startTime":884.004,"endTime":887.204,"body":"when you talk about sustainable pace,"},{"startTime":887.204,"endTime":888.262,"body":"you're only talking about hours."},{"startTime":888.433,"endTime":888.576,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":888.576,"endTime":890.747,"body":"You're only talking about"},{"startTime":888.576,"endTime":890.747,"body":"a 40 hour work week."},{"startTime":890.747,"endTime":893.666,"body":"You're only talking about how"},{"startTime":890.747,"endTime":893.666,"body":"long you're in the office sure."},{"startTime":893.695,"endTime":898.038,"body":"And so we all, we tend to miss that,"},{"startTime":893.695,"endTime":898.038,"body":"all those other factors, all the"},{"startTime":898.038,"endTime":901.781,"body":"context switching that happens all day"},{"startTime":898.038,"endTime":901.781,"body":"long in a 40 hour work week mm-hmm."},{"startTime":902.009,"endTime":906.219,"body":"Could be just as stressful and challenging"},{"startTime":902.009,"endTime":906.219,"body":"as a 60 hour work week doing one thing."},{"startTime":906.223,"endTime":907.019,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":907.257,"endTime":907.895,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":908.447,"endTime":912.028,"body":"And, the negative potential"},{"startTime":908.447,"endTime":912.028,"body":"ripple effect that that can have"},{"startTime":912.028,"endTime":913.685,"body":"regardless of your job role."},{"startTime":913.685,"endTime":917.371,"body":"Now I'm talking about this from many years"},{"startTime":913.685,"endTime":917.371,"body":"ago, working at the bedside in the ICU."},{"startTime":917.657,"endTime":920.771,"body":"But here's another example"},{"startTime":917.657,"endTime":920.771,"body":"of unsustainable pace from"},{"startTime":920.771,"endTime":921.723,"body":"a product perspective."},{"startTime":922.428,"endTime":929.343,"body":"So we were building greenfield"},{"startTime":922.428,"endTime":929.343,"body":"application, had a beta that we needed"},{"startTime":929.343,"endTime":932.457,"body":"to go live and we needed this to go live."},{"startTime":932.514,"endTime":940.971,"body":"This was our team's reputation, our vp uh,"},{"startTime":932.514,"endTime":940.971,"body":"of product reputation, and the possibility"},{"startTime":940.976,"endTime":943.4,"body":"that we could potentially get shut down."},{"startTime":943.457,"endTime":943.8,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":943.8,"endTime":948.962,"body":"So it was, it was a big deal for us to"},{"startTime":943.8,"endTime":948.962,"body":"make sure this happened on time, right?"},{"startTime":948.962,"endTime":950.885,"body":"We needed to get this beta release out."},{"startTime":951.843,"endTime":953.043,"body":"Here's the difference."},{"startTime":953.709,"endTime":957.9,"body":"Number one we were all engaged as a team."},{"startTime":957.9,"endTime":962.243,"body":"There wasn't this dog eat dog, which"},{"startTime":957.9,"endTime":962.243,"body":"was often experienced in that previous"},{"startTime":962.247,"endTime":964.385,"body":"scenario where this dog eat dog world."},{"startTime":964.385,"endTime":966.614,"body":"Kind of like, I want the easier patients."},{"startTime":966.662,"endTime":967.119,"body":"No."},{"startTime":967.262,"endTime":969.576,"body":"Our team, this is what we owned."},{"startTime":969.576,"endTime":972.662,"body":"We were engaged and we wanted it."},{"startTime":972.666,"endTime":972.728,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":972.776,"endTime":976.433,"body":"And we were determined and"},{"startTime":972.776,"endTime":976.433,"body":"convinced that we could deliver it."},{"startTime":976.776,"endTime":979.947,"body":"And we also had an end in sight."},{"startTime":979.947,"endTime":980.881,"body":"There was a finish line."},{"startTime":981.519,"endTime":987.09,"body":"Additionally, I had leadership"},{"startTime":981.519,"endTime":987.09,"body":"that was also engaged and involved."},{"startTime":987.09,"endTime":991.147,"body":"And when we had to do testing and"},{"startTime":987.09,"endTime":991.147,"body":"we were doing testing over the"},{"startTime":991.147,"endTime":994.8,"body":"weekends so that we couldn't, we"},{"startTime":991.147,"endTime":994.8,"body":"weren't in, in interrupting traffic."},{"startTime":995.209,"endTime":995.409,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":995.609,"endTime":995.943,"body":"I had."},{"startTime":996.4,"endTime":1001.4,"body":"My VP of product was in there"},{"startTime":996.4,"endTime":1001.4,"body":"with us helping, doing everything"},{"startTime":1001.4,"endTime":1002.971,"body":"they could to set that example."},{"startTime":1002.971,"endTime":1005.247,"body":"They were really, that, servant leader."},{"startTime":1005.704,"endTime":1006.933,"body":"So we were highly invested."},{"startTime":1006.933,"endTime":1008.362,"body":"We had leadership engagement."},{"startTime":1008.366,"endTime":1009.59,"body":"There was the finish line."},{"startTime":1009.847,"endTime":1011.219,"body":"Our team was highly engaged."},{"startTime":1011.276,"endTime":1011.676,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1011.923,"endTime":1016.876,"body":"And we all felt accountable"},{"startTime":1011.923,"endTime":1016.876,"body":"to making sure this happened."},{"startTime":1017.314,"endTime":1019.457,"body":"So parallels, but from a, from"},{"startTime":1017.314,"endTime":1019.457,"body":"an opposite perspective, oppos"},{"startTime":1019.457,"endTime":1020.485,"body":"opposing opposing parallels."},{"startTime":1020.543,"endTime":1020.971,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1020.971,"endTime":1021.8,"body":"Opposing parallels."},{"startTime":1022.085,"endTime":1029.123,"body":"So interesting that this was a very"},{"startTime":1022.085,"endTime":1029.123,"body":"unsustainable pace in the timeframe"},{"startTime":1029.123,"endTime":1032.552,"body":"that we had to get it done, the four"},{"startTime":1029.123,"endTime":1032.552,"body":"or six months or whatever it was."},{"startTime":1033.123,"endTime":1035.552,"body":"But we were happy to do it."},{"startTime":1035.552,"endTime":1039.895,"body":"It was ours, it was our baby, and"},{"startTime":1035.552,"endTime":1039.895,"body":"we knew and we were so freaking"},{"startTime":1039.9,"endTime":1040.667,"body":"determined to get it done."},{"startTime":1040.672,"endTime":1040.904,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1041.0,"endTime":1043.843,"body":"And we had the leadership guiding"},{"startTime":1041.0,"endTime":1043.843,"body":"us to do it, and I don't know that"},{"startTime":1043.847,"endTime":1047.443,"body":"you obviously can't do all of those"},{"startTime":1043.847,"endTime":1047.443,"body":"things same from, from a healthcare"},{"startTime":1047.443,"endTime":1050.976,"body":"to a product perspective, but what"},{"startTime":1047.443,"endTime":1050.976,"body":"a difference, both unsustainable."},{"startTime":1051.385,"endTime":1051.443,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1051.9,"endTime":1058.043,"body":"But morale from that nursing perspective,"},{"startTime":1051.9,"endTime":1058.043,"body":"it was like, this is miserable and I"},{"startTime":1058.043,"endTime":1062.9,"body":"don't see it ever changing where the"},{"startTime":1058.043,"endTime":1062.9,"body":"unsustainable pace that I experienced"},{"startTime":1062.9,"endTime":1065.1,"body":"as a product was almost motivating."},{"startTime":1065.423,"endTime":1070.023,"body":"I almost wonder if the difference in that"},{"startTime":1065.423,"endTime":1070.023,"body":"example was the visibility of leadership."},{"startTime":1070.423,"endTime":1075.376,"body":"Because in one of your examples,"},{"startTime":1070.423,"endTime":1075.376,"body":"like leadership was like starkly"},{"startTime":1075.395,"endTime":1076.766,"body":"absent command-and- control."},{"startTime":1077.138,"endTime":1077.652,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1077.652,"endTime":1077.947,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"startTime":1077.966,"endTime":1079.738,"body":"The other one, they were"},{"startTime":1077.966,"endTime":1079.738,"body":"there control, because I,"},{"startTime":1079.747,"endTime":1083.633,"body":"I have to go back really early in"},{"startTime":1079.747,"endTime":1083.633,"body":"my career to look, to reach for an"},{"startTime":1083.633,"endTime":1088.671,"body":"illustration where there was a sustainably"},{"startTime":1083.633,"endTime":1088.671,"body":"unsustainable pace at certain points."},{"startTime":1089.062,"endTime":1091.581,"body":"Like, because back in the day"},{"startTime":1089.062,"endTime":1091.581,"body":"SaaS wasn't really a thing."},{"startTime":1091.581,"endTime":1096.009,"body":"Like you had like big software, they had"},{"startTime":1091.581,"endTime":1096.009,"body":"to go run out and install on customer"},{"startTime":1096.009,"endTime":1098.609,"body":"sites, and you had to burn it to a"},{"startTime":1096.009,"endTime":1098.609,"body":"cd; that's not really a thing anymore."},{"startTime":1098.704,"endTime":1100.781,"body":"And, and thank goodness"},{"startTime":1098.704,"endTime":1100.781,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1101.181,"endTime":1105.095,"body":"Uh, but the point was like, if you"},{"startTime":1101.181,"endTime":1105.095,"body":"didn't make that Friday afternoon"},{"startTime":1105.095,"endTime":1107.628,"body":"release, it wasn't gonna make the"},{"startTime":1105.095,"endTime":1107.628,"body":"CD cut to go out in the, A gold"},{"startTime":1107.628,"endTime":1109.123,"body":"a gold, a gold CD was important."},{"startTime":1109.123,"endTime":1109.209,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1109.266,"endTime":1110.123,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1110.128,"endTime":1111.295,"body":"That, that, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1111.295,"endTime":1112.981,"body":"That's when you talking"},{"startTime":1111.295,"endTime":1112.981,"body":"about shipping software."},{"startTime":1112.985,"endTime":1113.038,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1113.352,"endTime":1114.809,"body":"It wasn't just bits across the wire."},{"startTime":1114.809,"endTime":1115.362,"body":"It was mailed out."},{"startTime":1115.381,"endTime":1116.162,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":1116.495,"endTime":1116.581,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1116.809,"endTime":1118.981,"body":"Your, your bugs were visible"},{"startTime":1116.809,"endTime":1118.981,"body":"right in in fixing 'em."},{"startTime":1119.038,"endTime":1119.209,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1119.209,"endTime":1120.266,"body":"It wasn't a patch tomorrow."},{"startTime":1120.323,"endTime":1120.523,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1120.552,"endTime":1120.866,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1121.371,"endTime":1123.257,"body":"that environment doesn't exist"},{"startTime":1121.371,"endTime":1123.257,"body":"anymore for, for better or"},{"startTime":1123.262,"endTime":1124.343,"body":"worse, i, I don't really know."},{"startTime":1124.343,"endTime":1127.138,"body":"I'm not trying to make a statement about"},{"startTime":1124.343,"endTime":1127.138,"body":"that, but the point was, we all knew that"},{"startTime":1127.138,"endTime":1132.352,"body":"those events were unsustainable, but they"},{"startTime":1127.138,"endTime":1132.352,"body":"were so uh, infrequent that it was okay."},{"startTime":1132.523,"endTime":1135.295,"body":"It was okay on the development team,"},{"startTime":1132.523,"endTime":1135.295,"body":"cuz it didn't happen that often."},{"startTime":1135.295,"endTime":1136.495,"body":"It just didn't happen that often."},{"startTime":1136.638,"endTime":1139.266,"body":"We cut the cd, we all go home,"},{"startTime":1136.638,"endTime":1139.266,"body":"it's nine o'clock at night, it's"},{"startTime":1139.266,"endTime":1140.466,"body":"11 o'clock at night, whatever."},{"startTime":1140.466,"endTime":1143.476,"body":"And Woo, success, we all"},{"startTime":1140.466,"endTime":1143.476,"body":"succeed as a team, right?"},{"startTime":1143.523,"endTime":1145.409,"body":"There is, there's also"},{"startTime":1143.523,"endTime":1145.409,"body":"that leader present mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1145.638,"endTime":1147.038,"body":"Who's walking around with a hammer, right?"},{"startTime":1147.438,"endTime":1147.609,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1147.614,"endTime":1151.666,"body":"Not walking around with a servant"},{"startTime":1147.614,"endTime":1151.666,"body":"mindset that says, what can I do for you?"},{"startTime":1151.723,"endTime":1152.009,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1152.014,"endTime":1154.123,"body":"They're walking around, standing"},{"startTime":1152.014,"endTime":1154.123,"body":"over, are you going, are you done yet?"},{"startTime":1154.171,"endTime":1161.228,"body":"Which, then translate to the, to similar"},{"startTime":1154.171,"endTime":1161.228,"body":"behavior being adopted by the people"},{"startTime":1161.228,"endTime":1163.143,"body":"that are working in that environment."},{"startTime":1163.219,"endTime":1166.347,"body":"we, we just hit on like one of the main"},{"startTime":1163.219,"endTime":1166.347,"body":"points, there are things you can do to,"},{"startTime":1166.547,"endTime":1170.098,"body":"to promote sustainability with regard"},{"startTime":1166.547,"endTime":1170.098,"body":"to pace at a team level, and there's"},{"startTime":1170.098,"endTime":1173.012,"body":"things you can do at a management"},{"startTime":1170.098,"endTime":1173.012,"body":"level, I guess, that management."},{"startTime":1173.012,"endTime":1173.126,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1173.126,"endTime":1176.784,"body":"And back back to the Stormy's"},{"startTime":1173.126,"endTime":1176.784,"body":"story, what would that story sound"},{"startTime":1176.784,"endTime":1179.184,"body":"like if there was no end in sight?"},{"startTime":1179.812,"endTime":1179.898,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1180.126,"endTime":1182.812,"body":"Your team was not equipped to do"},{"startTime":1180.126,"endTime":1182.812,"body":"the work they were asked to do"},{"startTime":1183.593,"endTime":1186.593,"body":"and the solution was pushed on"},{"startTime":1183.593,"endTime":1186.593,"body":"you and you weren't engaged in it."},{"startTime":1186.765,"endTime":1186.936,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1186.936,"endTime":1188.736,"body":"It, it's a completely different story."},{"startTime":1188.736,"endTime":1189.765,"body":"It's a completely different scenario."},{"startTime":1190.031,"endTime":1192.917,"body":"so your story was positive."},{"startTime":1192.922,"endTime":1196.488,"body":"Your results were great because"},{"startTime":1192.922,"endTime":1196.488,"body":"you had the domain knowledge, you"},{"startTime":1196.493,"endTime":1197.831,"body":"had the support of the leadership."},{"startTime":1198.165,"endTime":1200.536,"body":"And everyone saw the end in sight."},{"startTime":1200.536,"endTime":1200.793,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1201.012,"endTime":1204.907,"body":"When you don't see the end in sight, you"},{"startTime":1201.012,"endTime":1204.907,"body":"never know when that pace is gonna end."},{"startTime":1205.136,"endTime":1209.812,"body":"So for your product story you had like"},{"startTime":1205.136,"endTime":1209.812,"body":"a very short time span if I knew, okay,"},{"startTime":1209.812,"endTime":1213.507,"body":"I only have to like, This crazy pace"},{"startTime":1209.812,"endTime":1213.507,"body":"for like this many months, all right."},{"startTime":1213.507,"endTime":1216.45,"body":"This much sleeplessness,"},{"startTime":1213.507,"endTime":1216.45,"body":"constant, six, seven days a week."},{"startTime":1216.45,"endTime":1219.593,"body":"All right, I can do it for this long"},{"startTime":1216.45,"endTime":1219.593,"body":"and I'm gonna have these great results."},{"startTime":1219.965,"endTime":1220.422,"body":"I can do it."},{"startTime":1221.107,"endTime":1222.174,"body":"And I got great support."},{"startTime":1222.946,"endTime":1225.812,"body":"But then in the other environment that"},{"startTime":1222.946,"endTime":1225.812,"body":"you were describing, it's, there's"},{"startTime":1225.812,"endTime":1230.974,"body":"no management, there's no end in"},{"startTime":1225.812,"endTime":1230.974,"body":"sight, minimal resources, no support,"},{"startTime":1231.003,"endTime":1234.088,"body":"no future staff coming in, unsafe."},{"startTime":1234.117,"endTime":1235.546,"body":"You have people's lives on the lines."},{"startTime":1235.546,"endTime":1238.688,"body":"It's, it's a completely different"},{"startTime":1235.546,"endTime":1238.688,"body":"scenario, people staying alive is"},{"startTime":1238.688,"endTime":1241.488,"body":"a whole nother thing where you take"},{"startTime":1238.688,"endTime":1241.488,"body":"that home with you, did I do enough?"},{"startTime":1241.66,"endTime":1244.946,"body":"What if I missed something and"},{"startTime":1241.66,"endTime":1244.946,"body":"they died because I missed it?"},{"startTime":1244.95,"endTime":1247.098,"body":"Mm-hmm because doctors come"},{"startTime":1244.95,"endTime":1247.098,"body":"around for five minutes a"},{"startTime":1247.098,"endTime":1248.155,"body":"day and look at that patient."},{"startTime":1248.155,"endTime":1249.498,"body":"You're with the patient the whole day."},{"startTime":1249.812,"endTime":1252.641,"body":"They take your suggestions"},{"startTime":1249.812,"endTime":1252.641,"body":"because they're not there."},{"startTime":1253.107,"endTime":1256.45,"body":"And you've gotta wonder at the end"},{"startTime":1253.107,"endTime":1256.45,"body":"of the day, yeah, did I do enough?"},{"startTime":1256.479,"endTime":1256.936,"body":"And."},{"startTime":1257.112,"endTime":1258.109,"body":"You take that home with you."},{"startTime":1258.109,"endTime":1260.852,"body":"I wrote a couple of big categories down"},{"startTime":1258.109,"endTime":1260.852,"body":"while we were talking through things."},{"startTime":1260.852,"endTime":1263.423,"body":"I wrote down empathy for"},{"startTime":1260.852,"endTime":1263.423,"body":"users helping a lot with this."},{"startTime":1263.595,"endTime":1266.052,"body":"Like maybe you're working at an, a"},{"startTime":1263.595,"endTime":1266.052,"body":"sustainable pace, but you're working"},{"startTime":1266.057,"endTime":1267.852,"body":"with a lot of empathy towards your user."},{"startTime":1267.852,"endTime":1269.566,"body":"So, and your teammates"},{"startTime":1267.852,"endTime":1269.566,"body":"and your, and your, yeah."},{"startTime":1269.566,"endTime":1270.138,"body":"Empathy."},{"startTime":1270.142,"endTime":1270.995,"body":"You said empathy."},{"startTime":1271.019,"endTime":1271.847,"body":"And I wrote it."},{"startTime":1271.847,"endTime":1273.361,"body":"I wrote it immediately down."},{"startTime":1273.361,"endTime":1274.942,"body":"Cause I was like, well,"},{"startTime":1273.361,"endTime":1274.942,"body":"that's a big thing."},{"startTime":1274.942,"endTime":1275.209,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1275.29,"endTime":1276.819,"body":"That's a key thing in this topic."},{"startTime":1277.104,"endTime":1280.666,"body":"I wrote it is unique to teams"},{"startTime":1277.104,"endTime":1280.666,"body":"in both speed and quality."},{"startTime":1280.78,"endTime":1280.866,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1281.095,"endTime":1281.209,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1281.209,"endTime":1283.666,"body":"And then I wrote alignment with"},{"startTime":1281.209,"endTime":1283.666,"body":"leadership like in line with"},{"startTime":1283.666,"endTime":1284.552,"body":"the mission and the vision."},{"startTime":1284.557,"endTime":1285.323,"body":"I wrote that down too."},{"startTime":1285.323,"endTime":1285.38,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1285.409,"endTime":1288.918,"body":"So I wrote those as, as big, like"},{"startTime":1285.409,"endTime":1288.918,"body":"banner level item items for me to"},{"startTime":1288.918,"endTime":1289.975,"body":"take away from this conversation."},{"startTime":1290.203,"endTime":1294.222,"body":"But because I'm a product manager in"},{"startTime":1290.203,"endTime":1294.222,"body":"the back of my brain, I'm also listening"},{"startTime":1294.227,"endTime":1295.679,"body":"to the conversation as it happens."},{"startTime":1295.851,"endTime":1299.594,"body":"And I'm thinking to myself like, are there"},{"startTime":1295.851,"endTime":1299.594,"body":"metrics that I can use to help with this?"},{"startTime":1299.594,"endTime":1299.595,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1300.108,"endTime":1304.127,"body":"Are there measurements I can take to"},{"startTime":1300.108,"endTime":1304.127,"body":"know that  burnout's gonna happen soon?"},{"startTime":1304.175,"endTime":1309.175,"body":"The old red, amber, green indicator"},{"startTime":1304.175,"endTime":1309.175,"body":"is to let me, the obtuse manager"},{"startTime":1309.175,"endTime":1312.465,"body":"know that something is happening, I"},{"startTime":1309.175,"endTime":1312.465,"body":"gotta take a look at are, are there"},{"startTime":1312.513,"endTime":1316.694,"body":"things that, that, or organizational"},{"startTime":1312.513,"endTime":1316.694,"body":"culturally, oh, here I go again."},{"startTime":1316.789,"endTime":1317.875,"body":"Spiritually, physically."},{"startTime":1317.96,"endTime":1319.103,"body":"I did that in the last few podcasts."},{"startTime":1319.103,"endTime":1319.789,"body":"It was really annoying."},{"startTime":1319.979,"endTime":1322.837,"body":"So let me, so you're, you're asking"},{"startTime":1319.979,"endTime":1322.837,"body":"for a metrics, so not so that's"},{"startTime":1322.922,"endTime":1325.303,"body":"going to the quantitative side of it."},{"startTime":1325.308,"endTime":1325.313,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1325.389,"endTime":1326.989,"body":"So I'm not sure that you"},{"startTime":1325.389,"endTime":1326.989,"body":"can have a straight metric."},{"startTime":1327.132,"endTime":1327.218,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1327.218,"endTime":1330.551,"body":"But if you're not doing one-on-ones"},{"startTime":1327.218,"endTime":1330.551,"body":"with your team mm-hmm then you're not"},{"startTime":1330.551,"endTime":1332.237,"body":"having the appropriate conversations No."},{"startTime":1332.408,"endTime":1336.008,"body":"To where you can hear it by what"},{"startTime":1332.408,"endTime":1336.008,"body":"they're describing, what's going on."},{"startTime":1336.179,"endTime":1336.237,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1336.265,"endTime":1340.209,"body":"And the more frequent your one-on-ones"},{"startTime":1336.265,"endTime":1340.209,"body":"are, the more likely you are to hear it"},{"startTime":1340.694,"endTime":1342.437,"body":"in the 10th talk, not the first talk."},{"startTime":1342.494,"endTime":1342.751,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1342.808,"endTime":1344.608,"body":"A lot of people want to go"},{"startTime":1342.808,"endTime":1344.608,"body":"in that first one-on-ones."},{"startTime":1344.608,"endTime":1345.265,"body":"Like, tell me everything."},{"startTime":1345.265,"endTime":1346.151,"body":"I'm your friend, trust me."},{"startTime":1346.151,"endTime":1346.237,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1346.551,"endTime":1348.722,"body":"But we haven't talked 10 times"},{"startTime":1346.551,"endTime":1348.722,"body":"and I haven't, we don't really"},{"startTime":1348.722,"endTime":1349.751,"body":"have that trust level yet."},{"startTime":1350.037,"endTime":1352.522,"body":"And I haven't seen you, what you"},{"startTime":1350.037,"endTime":1352.522,"body":"do with the information I give you."},{"startTime":1352.522,"endTime":1352.837,"body":"Right, exactly."},{"startTime":1353.213,"endTime":1356.899,"body":"If we have a one-on-one, and then"},{"startTime":1353.213,"endTime":1356.899,"body":"in two days I hear something from"},{"startTime":1356.899,"endTime":1358.432,"body":"my one-on-one out in the Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1358.47,"endTime":1359.213,"body":"In the bullpen area."},{"startTime":1359.213,"endTime":1360.099,"body":"I'm like, Hey, wait a minute."},{"startTime":1360.184,"endTime":1360.841,"body":"I didn't tell anyone."},{"startTime":1360.841,"endTime":1361.584,"body":"Then I told you that."},{"startTime":1361.584,"endTime":1361.585,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1361.67,"endTime":1361.841,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1361.87,"endTime":1362.441,"body":"You suck."},{"startTime":1362.813,"endTime":1363.356,"body":"Yeah, I quit."},{"startTime":1363.36,"endTime":1363.537,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1363.727,"endTime":1365.327,"body":"So you need to establish"},{"startTime":1363.727,"endTime":1365.327,"body":"that rapport Yeah."},{"startTime":1365.332,"endTime":1366.156,"body":"With your team."},{"startTime":1366.156,"endTime":1368.841,"body":"So obviously first, how do you get,"},{"startTime":1366.156,"endTime":1368.841,"body":"so the measure is that one-on-one."},{"startTime":1368.927,"endTime":1370.385,"body":"I think that's the, the first step."},{"startTime":1370.39,"endTime":1371.413,"body":"That is interesting."},{"startTime":1371.413,"endTime":1375.06,"body":"I, I joined an organization"},{"startTime":1371.413,"endTime":1375.06,"body":"that was very, very small."},{"startTime":1375.118,"endTime":1380.108,"body":"I, I, I went and small 10, 20, 20 people."},{"startTime":1380.108,"endTime":1380.337,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1380.337,"endTime":1380.338,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1380.342,"endTime":1380.365,"body":"20."},{"startTime":1380.594,"endTime":1382.138,"body":"I think I was employed like 24, I think."},{"startTime":1382.594,"endTime":1386.737,"body":"And when I joined that organization it"},{"startTime":1382.594,"endTime":1386.737,"body":"was, they were wonderful because one"},{"startTime":1386.737,"endTime":1392.384,"body":"of the first 30 day checklist type of"},{"startTime":1386.737,"endTime":1392.384,"body":"items was you had to have a one-on-one"},{"startTime":1392.384,"endTime":1394.813,"body":"with every employee in the company."},{"startTime":1395.422,"endTime":1396.308,"body":"30 minute one-on-one."},{"startTime":1396.689,"endTime":1398.86,"body":"The rules of the one-on-one"},{"startTime":1396.689,"endTime":1398.86,"body":"were, you could talk about"},{"startTime":1398.86,"endTime":1400.632,"body":"anything you want, but not work."},{"startTime":1400.637,"endTime":1401.003,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1402.003,"endTime":1405.051,"body":"And after you got through your"},{"startTime":1402.003,"endTime":1405.051,"body":"first 30 days, there was a recurring"},{"startTime":1405.051,"endTime":1408.694,"body":"schedule we, we had a little App"},{"startTime":1405.051,"endTime":1408.694,"body":"that paired you with people randomly."},{"startTime":1408.789,"endTime":1411.018,"body":"It would pair you with different"},{"startTime":1408.789,"endTime":1411.018,"body":"people along the, along the way."},{"startTime":1411.018,"endTime":1412.618,"body":"But it was a wonderful culture."},{"startTime":1412.818,"endTime":1416.856,"body":"They thought it was like very important"},{"startTime":1412.818,"endTime":1416.856,"body":"to solidify relationships between people."},{"startTime":1417.113,"endTime":1420.256,"body":"And I've never been in a culture"},{"startTime":1417.113,"endTime":1420.256,"body":", that that much work time was"},{"startTime":1420.256,"endTime":1422.846,"body":"dedicated to that type of activity."},{"startTime":1423.189,"endTime":1428.518,"body":"And this is the best tool for"},{"startTime":1423.189,"endTime":1428.518,"body":"establishing, a culture that"},{"startTime":1428.518,"endTime":1430.403,"body":"I've ever seen employed ever."},{"startTime":1430.603,"endTime":1434.089,"body":"there's another podcast here"},{"startTime":1430.603,"endTime":1434.089,"body":"that I'm certain is lacking"},{"startTime":1434.546,"endTime":1437.089,"body":"in the, in the environment."},{"startTime":1437.518,"endTime":1438.703,"body":"The environment uh, in the subject."},{"startTime":1439.789,"endTime":1441.332,"body":"I'm not digging my way out of this hole."},{"startTime":1441.541,"endTime":1445.484,"body":"It is the topic of pricing"},{"startTime":1441.541,"endTime":1445.484,"body":"in product management."},{"startTime":1445.532,"endTime":1448.846,"body":"If you're not in the room when pricing"},{"startTime":1445.532,"endTime":1448.846,"body":"is decided and you don't have any control"},{"startTime":1448.846,"endTime":1453.703,"body":"over that, then in order to hit your"},{"startTime":1448.846,"endTime":1453.703,"body":"incentives, whatever your revenue numbers"},{"startTime":1453.703,"endTime":1456.789,"body":"or whatever, you have to either sell more"},{"startTime":1453.703,"endTime":1456.789,"body":"product or hire more salespeople so they"},{"startTime":1456.789,"endTime":1461.389,"body":"can sell faster, or develop more features"},{"startTime":1456.789,"endTime":1461.389,"body":"so the salespeople can promise more"},{"startTime":1461.389,"endTime":1466.313,"body":"things, which leads to an unsustainable"},{"startTime":1461.389,"endTime":1466.313,"body":"pace, because now the development team"},{"startTime":1466.313,"endTime":1469.846,"body":"has to deliver every time a sale is"},{"startTime":1466.313,"endTime":1469.846,"body":"made, some kind of custom feature."},{"startTime":1470.284,"endTime":1472.084,"body":"There are plenty shops out"},{"startTime":1470.284,"endTime":1472.084,"body":"there that are like this."},{"startTime":1472.084,"endTime":1472.141,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1472.741,"endTime":1476.056,"body":"But the development team, in that"},{"startTime":1472.741,"endTime":1476.056,"body":"scenario, will usually put their head"},{"startTime":1476.056,"endTime":1477.827,"body":"in the sand and say, we're not doing it."},{"startTime":1477.999,"endTime":1480.199,"body":"And the person who feels the most"},{"startTime":1477.999,"endTime":1480.199,"body":"pressure is the one in the middle,"},{"startTime":1480.37,"endTime":1483.084,"body":"which is your delivery manager,"},{"startTime":1480.37,"endTime":1483.084,"body":"your scrum master product, you know?"},{"startTime":1483.084,"endTime":1483.17,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1483.17,"endTime":1483.884,"body":"Your product owner."},{"startTime":1484.17,"endTime":1486.17,"body":"And then they're, they're going out"},{"startTime":1484.17,"endTime":1486.17,"body":"to leadership, going, the team's not"},{"startTime":1486.17,"endTime":1487.027,"body":"doing what they're supposed to be doing."},{"startTime":1487.027,"endTime":1487.256,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1487.741,"endTime":1489.427,"body":"Because you said unrealistic goals."},{"startTime":1489.684,"endTime":1492.484,"body":"You put them in a position"},{"startTime":1489.684,"endTime":1492.484,"body":"where they actually do have the"},{"startTime":1492.484,"endTime":1494.341,"body":"power to go, I'm not doing it."},{"startTime":1494.446,"endTime":1497.932,"body":"That's if you have a team that feels"},{"startTime":1494.446,"endTime":1497.932,"body":"empowered enough to even push back."},{"startTime":1498.618,"endTime":1502.103,"body":"So culture once again,"},{"startTime":1498.618,"endTime":1502.103,"body":"culture and leadership."},{"startTime":1502.108,"endTime":1502.732,"body":"It's a game of chicken."},{"startTime":1503.246,"endTime":1503.837,"body":"It comes in here."},{"startTime":1503.837,"endTime":1504.103,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1504.903,"endTime":1508.556,"body":"I mean, but, but I will, Say that"},{"startTime":1504.903,"endTime":1508.556,"body":"particularly in this day and age where"},{"startTime":1508.556,"endTime":1514.575,"body":"so many of our our developers are, are"},{"startTime":1508.556,"endTime":1514.575,"body":"outsourced and, they don't have the"},{"startTime":1514.813,"endTime":1517.356,"body":"investment in the company and the team."},{"startTime":1517.46,"endTime":1520.256,"body":"I was at a company one time where the"},{"startTime":1517.46,"endTime":1520.256,"body":"management were permanent employees,"},{"startTime":1520.256,"endTime":1524.384,"body":"but then all of the developers were all"},{"startTime":1520.256,"endTime":1524.384,"body":"contract outsource contract, whatever."},{"startTime":1524.984,"endTime":1527.994,"body":"And basically what would happen is"},{"startTime":1524.984,"endTime":1527.994,"body":"exactly what we were talking about"},{"startTime":1527.994,"endTime":1531.289,"body":"was like, they, they would push"},{"startTime":1527.994,"endTime":1531.289,"body":"them somebody would sell something."},{"startTime":1531.689,"endTime":1534.975,"body":"They're bringing item back to the team"},{"startTime":1531.689,"endTime":1534.975,"body":"with a deadline based on whatever the"},{"startTime":1534.975,"endTime":1538.041,"body":"sales contract or whatever say, Hey, we"},{"startTime":1534.975,"endTime":1538.041,"body":"need you to deliver this by this date."},{"startTime":1538.041,"endTime":1541.975,"body":"And, and, and you're right, Ed, like"},{"startTime":1538.041,"endTime":1541.975,"body":"the, the team, it's, we sold 10 sprints"},{"startTime":1541.975,"endTime":1542.975,"body":"and you have five sprints to deliver."},{"startTime":1542.975,"endTime":1546.094,"body":"You could push them back, but"},{"startTime":1542.975,"endTime":1546.094,"body":"all the people leading those"},{"startTime":1546.694,"endTime":1548.475,"body":"projects, I'll call 'em projects."},{"startTime":1548.646,"endTime":1549.703,"body":"They're not gonna hear that."},{"startTime":1549.703,"endTime":1552.189,"body":"They're gonna say, listen,"},{"startTime":1549.703,"endTime":1552.189,"body":"you will deliver mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1552.475,"endTime":1554.703,"body":"Everything in five sprints,"},{"startTime":1552.475,"endTime":1554.703,"body":"or I'll get another team."},{"startTime":1554.875,"endTime":1554.96,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1555.194,"endTime":1555.246,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1555.246,"endTime":1559.018,"body":"Because you're all contractors or you're"},{"startTime":1555.246,"endTime":1559.018,"body":"all offshore, or you're all whatever."},{"startTime":1559.275,"endTime":1560.818,"body":"Disposable, basically."},{"startTime":1560.818,"endTime":1563.161,"body":"I've been in that environment and"},{"startTime":1560.818,"endTime":1563.161,"body":"that's a same, quite honestly, that"},{"startTime":1563.166,"endTime":1564.903,"body":"that's, that's a very scary culture."},{"startTime":1564.999,"endTime":1565.884,"body":"That wasn't my example."},{"startTime":1565.884,"endTime":1566.941,"body":"That wasn't where I was a manager."},{"startTime":1567.199,"endTime":1571.37,"body":"I worked in that culture as well, which"},{"startTime":1567.199,"endTime":1571.37,"body":"was interesting because they had onshore"},{"startTime":1571.37,"endTime":1573.503,"body":"teams and contracted offshore teams."},{"startTime":1573.508,"endTime":1573.675,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1573.96,"endTime":1577.332,"body":"And this is a quote, the offshore"},{"startTime":1573.96,"endTime":1577.332,"body":"teams are just code monkeys."},{"startTime":1577.652,"endTime":1580.338,"body":"So when we were talking"},{"startTime":1577.652,"endTime":1580.338,"body":"about, Sustainable pace."},{"startTime":1580.338,"endTime":1583.766,"body":"Sustainable pace actually meant something"},{"startTime":1580.338,"endTime":1583.766,"body":"very different for our onshore team."},{"startTime":1584.109,"endTime":1584.281,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1584.309,"endTime":1585.738,"body":"As it did for our offshore team."},{"startTime":1585.79,"endTime":1590.716,"body":"And also the expectation in which"},{"startTime":1585.79,"endTime":1590.716,"body":"stories were delivered was very"},{"startTime":1590.716,"endTime":1596.335,"body":"different for our onshore teams, and our"},{"startTime":1590.716,"endTime":1596.335,"body":"offshore teams who needed a checklist."},{"startTime":1596.563,"endTime":1601.42,"body":"You tell me exactly top to bottom, I will"},{"startTime":1596.563,"endTime":1601.42,"body":"be making no decisions that I can't refer"},{"startTime":1601.42,"endTime":1605.106,"body":"back to, to say, this is what you told"},{"startTime":1601.42,"endTime":1605.106,"body":"me to do and I can prove that I did it."},{"startTime":1605.22,"endTime":1605.535,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1605.677,"endTime":1609.382,"body":"Sign offs and phase gates and even"},{"startTime":1605.677,"endTime":1609.382,"body":"within the same organization, you"},{"startTime":1609.382,"endTime":1614.011,"body":"can have different, that's why it's,"},{"startTime":1609.382,"endTime":1614.011,"body":"each team makes their own pace."},{"startTime":1614.125,"endTime":1614.297,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1614.297,"endTime":1615.097,"body":"Well, they should."},{"startTime":1615.101,"endTime":1615.868,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1616.039,"endTime":1621.497,"body":"And ultimately  this offshore"},{"startTime":1616.039,"endTime":1621.497,"body":"contracted teams felt, to your point,"},{"startTime":1621.497,"endTime":1625.125,"body":"if I don't meet, whatever it is, they"},{"startTime":1621.497,"endTime":1625.125,"body":"tell me that they need to have met,"},{"startTime":1625.382,"endTime":1627.182,"body":"then I'm gonna lose this contract."},{"startTime":1627.258,"endTime":1630.687,"body":"The easy example is you have to stay"},{"startTime":1627.258,"endTime":1630.687,"body":"and work 60 hours or work on Sunday"},{"startTime":1630.687,"endTime":1631.801,"body":"or whatever until you get this done."},{"startTime":1632.125,"endTime":1635.973,"body":"The more interesting part of this to"},{"startTime":1632.125,"endTime":1635.973,"body":"me is I've been on development teams"},{"startTime":1636.759,"endTime":1641.512,"body":"it's, the team members themselves who"},{"startTime":1636.759,"endTime":1641.512,"body":"are staying until seven and whatever,"},{"startTime":1641.512,"endTime":1644.202,"body":"and like, they're not being prompted"},{"startTime":1641.512,"endTime":1644.202,"body":"by management and as a team member, I"},{"startTime":1644.202,"endTime":1648.316,"body":"feel pressured to be like, well, I, I"},{"startTime":1644.202,"endTime":1648.316,"body":"can't leave these, these guys are still"},{"startTime":1648.316,"endTime":1652.136,"body":"at their desk writing code, it's seven"},{"startTime":1648.316,"endTime":1652.136,"body":"o'clock at night I've been here since"},{"startTime":1652.336,"endTime":1655.812,"body":"eight in the morning, but I don't wanna"},{"startTime":1652.336,"endTime":1655.812,"body":"leave cause of my team or like, what,"},{"startTime":1655.812,"endTime":1656.583,"body":"what's going on with these people?"},{"startTime":1656.583,"endTime":1657.57,"body":"So there, there's a mixed situation."},{"startTime":1657.575,"endTime":1661.446,"body":"There is sometimes, as the boss, right?"},{"startTime":1661.541,"endTime":1663.341,"body":"In this case, I don't wanna"},{"startTime":1661.541,"endTime":1663.341,"body":"call that person a leader."},{"startTime":1663.398,"endTime":1666.284,"body":"As the boss, you have to leave"},{"startTime":1663.398,"endTime":1666.284,"body":"to make sure your, to let your"},{"startTime":1666.284,"endTime":1667.284,"body":"team know it's okay to leave."},{"startTime":1667.427,"endTime":1667.884,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1668.17,"endTime":1668.398,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1668.398,"endTime":1671.513,"body":"There are times that the team is"},{"startTime":1668.398,"endTime":1671.513,"body":"going, would they go home yet?"},{"startTime":1671.884,"endTime":1673.37,"body":"And you still set and"},{"startTime":1671.884,"endTime":1673.37,"body":"type in, set the example."},{"startTime":1673.375,"endTime":1678.336,"body":"So, so depending on the situation that the"},{"startTime":1673.375,"endTime":1678.336,"body":"team finds themselves in, some of them are"},{"startTime":1678.336,"endTime":1680.051,"body":"staying because the boss is still there."},{"startTime":1680.051,"endTime":1680.222,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1680.365,"endTime":1683.508,"body":"When the boss leaves, they got a"},{"startTime":1680.365,"endTime":1683.508,"body":"30 minute window to go, all right,"},{"startTime":1683.508,"endTime":1684.298,"body":"I'm checking out now, I'm done."},{"startTime":1684.303,"endTime":1684.336,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1684.936,"endTime":1685.279,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1685.479,"endTime":1691.079,"body":"I think this is the, like if you are, if"},{"startTime":1685.479,"endTime":1691.079,"body":"it's ingrained in the culture, I think"},{"startTime":1691.079,"endTime":1692.023,"body":"that's what we're talking about now."},{"startTime":1692.028,"endTime":1692.156,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1692.236,"endTime":1695.651,"body":"It's like, like I had an office once"},{"startTime":1692.236,"endTime":1695.651,"body":"where the corner of the office was the"},{"startTime":1695.651,"endTime":1699.727,"body":"CEO's office, and kind of what you're"},{"startTime":1695.651,"endTime":1699.727,"body":"talking about was, was in effect everybody"},{"startTime":1699.956,"endTime":1701.613,"body":"from the office could see the corner."},{"startTime":1701.613,"endTime":1702.098,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1702.104,"endTime":1706.184,"body":"And if the, if his door"},{"startTime":1702.104,"endTime":1706.184,"body":"was closed, he was gone."},{"startTime":1706.356,"endTime":1708.098,"body":"If his door was open, he was there."},{"startTime":1708.184,"endTime":1712.184,"body":"So while the door was open,"},{"startTime":1708.184,"endTime":1712.184,"body":"nobody wanted to leave."},{"startTime":1712.327,"endTime":1715.975,"body":"So if he stayed late, the whole"},{"startTime":1712.327,"endTime":1715.975,"body":"office  they were afraid of"},{"startTime":1715.975,"endTime":1718.889,"body":"leaving cuz he would come out of"},{"startTime":1715.975,"endTime":1718.889,"body":"his office when he was leaving."},{"startTime":1718.975,"endTime":1719.146,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1719.46,"endTime":1721.984,"body":"And see oh, there's nobody here."},{"startTime":1722.46,"endTime":1723.432,"body":"That was a cultural thing."},{"startTime":1723.436,"endTime":1723.575,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1723.651,"endTime":1723.841,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1723.889,"endTime":1726.622,"body":"So I do want to I wanna jump in on"},{"startTime":1723.889,"endTime":1726.622,"body":"this one is I was an organization,"},{"startTime":1726.627,"endTime":1729.16,"body":"first off, I think it's in"},{"startTime":1726.627,"endTime":1729.16,"body":"Richard Sheridan's book Joy Inc."},{"startTime":1729.475,"endTime":1734.065,"body":"Where he talks about not celebrating"},{"startTime":1729.475,"endTime":1734.065,"body":"people who worked nights and weekends."},{"startTime":1734.07,"endTime":1734.456,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":1734.598,"endTime":1734.875,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1734.875,"endTime":1735.179,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1735.256,"endTime":1737.379,"body":"And so I believe, I believe"},{"startTime":1735.256,"endTime":1737.379,"body":"that was in his book."},{"startTime":1737.379,"endTime":1740.494,"body":"Mm-hmm that said, I worked with"},{"startTime":1737.379,"endTime":1740.494,"body":"an organization that had a kudos"},{"startTime":1740.494,"endTime":1743.322,"body":"channel, and I don't know how"},{"startTime":1740.494,"endTime":1743.322,"body":"many times kudos were sent out."},{"startTime":1743.636,"endTime":1745.494,"body":"Thank you for working"},{"startTime":1743.636,"endTime":1745.494,"body":"on this thing that we."},{"startTime":1745.736,"endTime":1746.556,"body":"Had to get done."},{"startTime":1746.556,"endTime":1748.527,"body":"We had to do, we had"},{"startTime":1746.556,"endTime":1748.527,"body":"to get across the line."},{"startTime":1748.784,"endTime":1750.356,"body":"And you lost time with your family."},{"startTime":1750.356,"endTime":1750.756,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":1750.756,"endTime":1753.841,"body":"That you didn't go to your son's baseball"},{"startTime":1750.756,"endTime":1753.841,"body":"game and be there for your wife's"},{"startTime":1753.841,"endTime":1758.636,"body":"birthday and you missed your son's bar"},{"startTime":1753.841,"endTime":1758.636,"body":"mitzvah and you got this done for us."},{"startTime":1758.703,"endTime":1758.979,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1759.157,"endTime":1762.472,"body":"The company I was describing before"},{"startTime":1759.157,"endTime":1762.472,"body":"with the, with the one-on-ones,"},{"startTime":1762.472,"endTime":1763.386,"body":"the culture of one-on-ones."},{"startTime":1763.414,"endTime":1766.466,"body":"Yep what we're talking about now, I"},{"startTime":1763.414,"endTime":1766.466,"body":"feel that the systemic problems we're"},{"startTime":1766.466,"endTime":1771.381,"body":"talking about, maybe it doesn't apply"},{"startTime":1766.466,"endTime":1771.381,"body":"at a tiny little company like that,"},{"startTime":1771.381,"endTime":1776.124,"body":"where like every single person's impact"},{"startTime":1771.381,"endTime":1776.124,"body":"of going above me beyond is really,"},{"startTime":1776.128,"endTime":1777.714,"body":"really felt through the whole culture."},{"startTime":1778.171,"endTime":1781.124,"body":"I feel, I feel a lot of the"},{"startTime":1778.171,"endTime":1781.124,"body":"examples that we gave here so far"},{"startTime":1781.276,"endTime":1783.685,"body":"like people could listen to the"},{"startTime":1781.276,"endTime":1783.685,"body":"examples without, understanding"},{"startTime":1783.685,"endTime":1785.0,"body":"the size of the organization."},{"startTime":1785.114,"endTime":1789.171,"body":"Like a, a massive hospital or a"},{"startTime":1785.114,"endTime":1789.171,"body":"development team that's like one"},{"startTime":1789.176,"endTime":1793.143,"body":"team in a program of 20, 30, 50"},{"startTime":1789.176,"endTime":1793.143,"body":"teams or whatever who's gonna know"},{"startTime":1793.324,"endTime":1795.924,"body":"that you're working in the middle"},{"startTime":1793.324,"endTime":1795.924,"body":"of the night or whatever, you know?"},{"startTime":1795.924,"endTime":1799.028,"body":"But if you're in a 20 person"},{"startTime":1795.924,"endTime":1799.028,"body":"company I mean the, the founders"},{"startTime":1799.028,"endTime":1804.057,"body":"of the company probably are working"},{"startTime":1799.028,"endTime":1804.057,"body":"consistently, I don't know, 60 plus out."},{"startTime":1804.062,"endTime":1805.428,"body":"They're definitely"},{"startTime":1804.062,"endTime":1805.428,"body":"working all day Saturday."},{"startTime":1805.6,"endTime":1805.943,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1806.171,"endTime":1807.771,"body":"But they're, they're"},{"startTime":1806.171,"endTime":1807.771,"body":"expensing their lifestyle."},{"startTime":1807.771,"endTime":1810.962,"body":"They're taking disbursements and"},{"startTime":1807.771,"endTime":1810.962,"body":"you know, they, they do have a"},{"startTime":1810.962,"endTime":1814.076,"body":"different situation than they have"},{"startTime":1810.962,"endTime":1814.076,"body":"more yachts than you, you're saying."},{"startTime":1814.333,"endTime":1814.647,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1814.876,"endTime":1817.562,"body":"I couldn't, I, I mean, I"},{"startTime":1814.876,"endTime":1817.562,"body":"wouldn't necessarily completely"},{"startTime":1817.562,"endTime":1818.647,"body":"disagree with what you're saying."},{"startTime":1818.652,"endTime":1822.59,"body":"I could see how that can, so the size"},{"startTime":1818.652,"endTime":1822.59,"body":"of the organization could play into"},{"startTime":1822.59,"endTime":1827.476,"body":"it, but in my experience, even in"},{"startTime":1822.59,"endTime":1827.476,"body":"really, really large organizations"},{"startTime":1828.104,"endTime":1830.447,"body":"there's microcultures and so, sure."},{"startTime":1830.452,"endTime":1830.543,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1830.638,"endTime":1837.362,"body":"So, I mean, which the last company that"},{"startTime":1830.638,"endTime":1837.362,"body":"I worked for was probably A total of"},{"startTime":1837.362,"endTime":1841.476,"body":"about, I dunno, just shy of 300 people,"},{"startTime":1837.362,"endTime":1841.476,"body":"but the people that for the product that I"},{"startTime":1841.476,"endTime":1845.533,"body":"utilized, which was one team, and everyone"},{"startTime":1841.476,"endTime":1845.533,"body":"that I worked with across the board"},{"startTime":1845.79,"endTime":1848.076,"body":"was, I don't know, maybe 20, 22 people."},{"startTime":1848.457,"endTime":1852.552,"body":"And even even working for a"},{"startTime":1848.457,"endTime":1852.552,"body":"huge Fortune five company, huge."},{"startTime":1852.924,"endTime":1857.519,"body":"I was, yeah, I mean, really huge,"},{"startTime":1852.924,"endTime":1857.519,"body":"we were segregated and there were"},{"startTime":1857.519,"endTime":1859.896,"body":"five teams, but we were all, this"},{"startTime":1857.519,"endTime":1859.896,"body":"was in the pre in the before times."},{"startTime":1860.352,"endTime":1863.952,"body":"All five teams were in"},{"startTime":1860.352,"endTime":1863.952,"body":"the same co-located space."},{"startTime":1864.066,"endTime":1870.152,"body":"Our VP of product was right there with"},{"startTime":1864.066,"endTime":1870.152,"body":"us, so we had our own little microculture."},{"startTime":1870.352,"endTime":1875.928,"body":"And so even in that situation,"},{"startTime":1870.352,"endTime":1875.928,"body":"these type of actions would be"},{"startTime":1876.1,"endTime":1878.814,"body":"you know, would be impactful even"},{"startTime":1876.1,"endTime":1878.814,"body":"in those large organizations."},{"startTime":1878.814,"endTime":1881.557,"body":"So we keep going back kind"},{"startTime":1878.814,"endTime":1881.557,"body":"of to, it is staying on a"},{"startTime":1881.557,"endTime":1883.157,"body":"sustainable pace, is your culture."},{"startTime":1883.214,"endTime":1883.3,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1883.533,"endTime":1886.29,"body":"Drives your pace, what your"},{"startTime":1883.533,"endTime":1886.29,"body":"team does, drives its own pace."},{"startTime":1886.29,"endTime":1886.633,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1887.071,"endTime":1891.385,"body":"What your leadership either directly"},{"startTime":1887.071,"endTime":1891.385,"body":"or indirectly does, it can negatively"},{"startTime":1891.443,"endTime":1894.7,"body":"or beneficially impact your team"},{"startTime":1891.443,"endTime":1894.7,"body":"depending on if they're present"},{"startTime":1894.7,"endTime":1896.471,"body":"and how they present themselves."},{"startTime":1896.519,"endTime":1900.576,"body":"I think a lot of, a lot of the"},{"startTime":1896.519,"endTime":1900.576,"body":"conversations we've had has been around."},{"startTime":1901.266,"endTime":1902.495,"body":"The team culture."},{"startTime":1902.495,"endTime":1905.409,"body":"We've been doing a lot of cultural"},{"startTime":1902.495,"endTime":1905.409,"body":"conversations more than we have been"},{"startTime":1905.409,"endTime":1908.409,"body":"talking about pace conversations."},{"startTime":1908.8,"endTime":1910.943,"body":"I think that may be the main driver."},{"startTime":1911.019,"endTime":1914.857,"body":"So the culture which is developed"},{"startTime":1911.019,"endTime":1914.857,"body":"by the leadership and that is"},{"startTime":1914.857,"endTime":1919.343,"body":"ultimately, I think what's going to"},{"startTime":1914.857,"endTime":1919.343,"body":"determine what, which we talked about"},{"startTime":1919.343,"endTime":1924.014,"body":"in the very, very beginning of the"},{"startTime":1919.343,"endTime":1924.014,"body":"podcast, what is a sustainable pace?"},{"startTime":1924.019,"endTime":1925.962,"body":"So I just do wanna cover what do you need?"},{"startTime":1925.966,"endTime":1929.19,"body":"I, I made some notes on what do you"},{"startTime":1925.966,"endTime":1929.19,"body":"need to sustain your pace, right?"},{"startTime":1929.19,"endTime":1929.276,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1929.276,"endTime":1931.819,"body":"That's, so now I'm not talking"},{"startTime":1929.276,"endTime":1931.819,"body":"about team pace, I'm talking"},{"startTime":1931.819,"endTime":1932.676,"body":"about the individual pace."},{"startTime":1932.681,"endTime":1936.076,"body":"So the, the notes I had when, and then we"},{"startTime":1932.681,"endTime":1936.076,"body":"can debate those were the quality of work."},{"startTime":1936.081,"endTime":1936.143,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1936.238,"endTime":1939.704,"body":"So first off, in order for me"},{"startTime":1936.238,"endTime":1939.704,"body":"to, to maintain my pace, the"},{"startTime":1939.704,"endTime":1941.619,"body":"quality of work has to be valued."},{"startTime":1941.628,"endTime":1943.504,"body":"It, it, there just, it"},{"startTime":1941.628,"endTime":1943.504,"body":"just has to be good."},{"startTime":1943.704,"endTime":1945.019,"body":"There's gotta be a standard of excellence."},{"startTime":1945.066,"endTime":1947.7,"body":"Great quote is uh, avoid"},{"startTime":1945.066,"endTime":1947.7,"body":"the lollipop of mediocrity."},{"startTime":1947.704,"endTime":1949.157,"body":"One look lick, you'll suck forever."},{"startTime":1949.162,"endTime":1949.376,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1949.528,"endTime":1949.785,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1949.785,"endTime":1951.985,"body":"So I don't, I don't accept mo mediocrity."},{"startTime":1952.271,"endTime":1952.985,"body":"I try not to."},{"startTime":1953.033,"endTime":1956.976,"body":"Sometimes I get in a situation where I'm"},{"startTime":1953.033,"endTime":1956.976,"body":"multitasking and doing 15 things at once"},{"startTime":1956.976,"endTime":1958.604,"body":"and my quality of work has gone down."},{"startTime":1958.604,"endTime":1958.719,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1958.857,"endTime":1961.4,"body":"That makes me dissatisfied"},{"startTime":1958.857,"endTime":1961.4,"body":"with my sustainable pace."},{"startTime":1961.514,"endTime":1961.628,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1961.685,"endTime":1961.771,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1962.0,"endTime":1962.028,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":1962.028,"endTime":1965.2,"body":"valuable work, making sure that"},{"startTime":1962.028,"endTime":1965.2,"body":"there's value in the things I do."},{"startTime":1965.514,"endTime":1965.714,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1965.714,"endTime":1970.581,"body":"I could never be a lug nut guy or a ditch"},{"startTime":1965.714,"endTime":1970.581,"body":"digger because I don't see the long-term"},{"startTime":1970.581,"endTime":1972.752,"body":"value of me doing that every single day."},{"startTime":1972.752,"endTime":1975.524,"body":"That's just not, it's not what,"},{"startTime":1972.752,"endTime":1975.524,"body":"it's not the work that energizes me."},{"startTime":1975.528,"endTime":1975.628,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1976.181,"endTime":1977.524,"body":"So the work has to be interesting, right?"},{"startTime":1977.524,"endTime":1979.095,"body":"So now is it interesting work?"},{"startTime":1979.095,"endTime":1979.952,"body":"Is it challenging work?"},{"startTime":1979.952,"endTime":1983.609,"body":"Does it, does it, does it tickle"},{"startTime":1979.952,"endTime":1983.609,"body":"my mind to say, that's cool stuff."},{"startTime":1983.609,"endTime":1985.324,"body":"Let me, let me keep learning from this."},{"startTime":1985.324,"endTime":1986.038,"body":"So it's interesting."},{"startTime":1986.562,"endTime":1987.447,"body":"Domain knowledge."},{"startTime":1987.504,"endTime":1989.876,"body":"I have to have some"},{"startTime":1987.504,"endTime":1989.876,"body":"experience in that domain."},{"startTime":1989.943,"endTime":1992.219,"body":"Otherwise, I'm trying to"},{"startTime":1989.943,"endTime":1992.219,"body":"play catch up every day."},{"startTime":1992.224,"endTime":1994.376,"body":"Imagine being on behind on all the newest."},{"startTime":1994.376,"endTime":1995.176,"body":"Policies, right."},{"startTime":1995.176,"endTime":1996.395,"body":"Or new information."},{"startTime":1996.395,"endTime":1997.519,"body":"In your nurses example, right?"},{"startTime":1997.519,"endTime":2001.176,"body":"I'm a nurse, but I'm in the wrong"},{"startTime":1997.519,"endTime":2001.176,"body":"floor and they sent me to your floor."},{"startTime":2001.176,"endTime":2002.692,"body":"And you're like, so I don't"},{"startTime":2001.176,"endTime":2002.692,"body":"know orthopedics do that."},{"startTime":2002.747,"endTime":2004.09,"body":"I don't know how to work these machines."},{"startTime":2004.09,"endTime":2004.319,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2004.319,"endTime":2006.09,"body":"And then I feel semi useless."},{"startTime":2006.09,"endTime":2006.662,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2006.662,"endTime":2008.319,"body":"So domain knowledge has to be there."},{"startTime":2008.319,"endTime":2008.404,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2008.633,"endTime":2009.595,"body":"Capacity to do the work, right?"},{"startTime":2009.919,"endTime":2010.004,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2010.233,"endTime":2011.833,"body":"Is, am I being given too much?"},{"startTime":2012.176,"endTime":2014.09,"body":"Uh, do I have the mental"},{"startTime":2012.176,"endTime":2014.09,"body":"capacity to do it?"},{"startTime":2014.5,"endTime":2018.29,"body":"and then lastly is strategic alignment"},{"startTime":2014.5,"endTime":2018.29,"body":"is the work I'm doing aligned with"},{"startTime":2018.29,"endTime":2022.747,"body":"the organization so that I'm not doing"},{"startTime":2018.29,"endTime":2022.747,"body":"something that's never going to be used."},{"startTime":2022.747,"endTime":2022.976,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2023.262,"endTime":2024.862,"body":"There's nothing worse than"},{"startTime":2023.262,"endTime":2024.862,"body":"being a software developer."},{"startTime":2025.29,"endTime":2026.519,"body":"We got arbitrary deadline."},{"startTime":2026.519,"endTime":2027.69,"body":"We have to have this done by January."},{"startTime":2027.69,"endTime":2028.919,"body":"We have to have this done by January."},{"startTime":2029.747,"endTime":2031.147,"body":"Alright, we got it done by January."},{"startTime":2031.176,"endTime":2031.233,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2031.233,"endTime":2032.204,"body":"We're gonna deploy it in June."},{"startTime":2032.204,"endTime":2032.29,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2032.695,"endTime":2033.004,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2033.062,"endTime":2033.262,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2033.404,"endTime":2033.747,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":2033.9,"endTime":2034.176,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2034.385,"endTime":2037.262,"body":"Why did I have to have it done by January"},{"startTime":2034.385,"endTime":2037.262,"body":"if you're not gonna deploy it until June?"},{"startTime":2037.452,"endTime":2039.062,"body":"I, I, I shuffled everything."},{"startTime":2039.066,"endTime":2041.185,"body":"You, you said I shuffled"},{"startTime":2039.066,"endTime":2041.185,"body":"into our four categories."},{"startTime":2041.338,"endTime":2043.062,"body":"I, I I created fourth category."},{"startTime":2043.062,"endTime":2045.909,"body":"Surprise, I created a"},{"startTime":2043.062,"endTime":2045.909,"body":"category of one-on-ones."},{"startTime":2045.909,"endTime":2046.309,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2046.315,"endTime":2049.062,"body":"Which helps you align with the people."},{"startTime":2049.09,"endTime":2050.433,"body":"I mean, I was gonna say individual wise."},{"startTime":2050.462,"endTime":2050.633,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2050.638,"endTime":2051.233,"body":"Individuals."},{"startTime":2051.233,"endTime":2054.585,"body":"And, and also like the, if you have"},{"startTime":2051.233,"endTime":2054.585,"body":"a culture of one-on-ones, it helps"},{"startTime":2054.585,"endTime":2056.947,"body":"you be in tune with, um mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2057.195,"endTime":2058.052,"body":"How people are thinking."},{"startTime":2058.138,"endTime":2060.19,"body":"I, I started with"},{"startTime":2058.138,"endTime":2060.19,"body":"alignment with leadership."},{"startTime":2060.533,"endTime":2063.038,"body":"And I started realizing that"},{"startTime":2060.533,"endTime":2063.038,"body":"alignment with leadership, Didn't"},{"startTime":2063.038,"endTime":2064.152,"body":"just have to do with the mission."},{"startTime":2064.209,"endTime":2065.724,"body":"I wrote down mission slash vision."},{"startTime":2065.724,"endTime":2065.724,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2065.733,"endTime":2066.114,"body":"I wrote that down."},{"startTime":2066.114,"endTime":2066.304,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2066.385,"endTime":2067.924,"body":"Because I'm thinking product, right?"},{"startTime":2067.924,"endTime":2069.638,"body":"I'm thinking product and"},{"startTime":2067.924,"endTime":2069.638,"body":"I'm thinking executives."},{"startTime":2069.866,"endTime":2073.704,"body":"But I started realizing that alignment"},{"startTime":2069.866,"endTime":2073.704,"body":"with leadership might also mean alignment"},{"startTime":2073.704,"endTime":2075.362,"body":"with your engineering leadership."},{"startTime":2075.39,"endTime":2078.99,"body":"Who will be the people to say, Hey"},{"startTime":2075.39,"endTime":2078.99,"body":"look, we don't, like we don't need"},{"startTime":2078.99,"endTime":2080.847,"body":"TDD, we don't need to test everything."},{"startTime":2081.133,"endTime":2082.562,"body":"Just throw some stuff out there."},{"startTime":2082.59,"endTime":2082.733,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2082.962,"endTime":2084.733,"body":"We'll come back to it"},{"startTime":2082.962,"endTime":2084.733,"body":"later and figure it out."},{"startTime":2084.738,"endTime":2085.791,"body":"Well, I don't feel good about that."},{"startTime":2085.857,"endTime":2086.19,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2086.343,"endTime":2087.133,"body":"I don't feel good."},{"startTime":2087.133,"endTime":2088.562,"body":"Like it's gonna break in"},{"startTime":2087.133,"endTime":2088.562,"body":"the middle of the night."},{"startTime":2088.562,"endTime":2089.047,"body":"I'm back up."},{"startTime":2089.047,"endTime":2090.219,"body":"I'm doing pajama party deployments."},{"startTime":2090.219,"endTime":2092.847,"body":"Cause we haven't, we decided not to"},{"startTime":2090.219,"endTime":2092.847,"body":"roll our stuff out with Kubernetes."},{"startTime":2092.933,"endTime":2093.047,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":2093.047,"endTime":2093.819,"body":"Our stuff can't scale."},{"startTime":2093.819,"endTime":2096.933,"body":"So I gotta go run out on Sunday"},{"startTime":2093.819,"endTime":2096.933,"body":"and spin up some servers in"},{"startTime":2096.933,"endTime":2098.619,"body":"emergency when this volume goes up."},{"startTime":2098.619,"endTime":2098.962,"body":"Whatever."},{"startTime":2098.99,"endTime":2099.076,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2099.304,"endTime":2101.124,"body":"Like that's alignment with"},{"startTime":2099.304,"endTime":2101.124,"body":"leadership in both quality."},{"startTime":2101.562,"endTime":2101.647,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2101.771,"endTime":2104.209,"body":"And, align for where the business"},{"startTime":2101.771,"endTime":2104.209,"body":"is going with what you talked about,"},{"startTime":2104.209,"endTime":2106.552,"body":"there's two categories you're taken"},{"startTime":2104.209,"endTime":2106.552,"body":"care of with alignment, with leadership."},{"startTime":2106.809,"endTime":2109.866,"body":"Again, we can argue about"},{"startTime":2106.809,"endTime":2109.866,"body":"if alignment's a real thing."},{"startTime":2109.924,"endTime":2113.643,"body":"Cuz I, that's the interesting"},{"startTime":2109.924,"endTime":2113.643,"body":"part for me here is like, I"},{"startTime":2113.643,"endTime":2115.271,"body":"don't need to generate alignment."},{"startTime":2115.357,"endTime":2115.614,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2115.728,"endTime":2117.243,"body":"I need to make alignment happen."},{"startTime":2117.271,"endTime":2117.557,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2117.7,"endTime":2119.014,"body":"By the way the organization works."},{"startTime":2119.014,"endTime":2119.157,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2119.5,"endTime":2122.7,"body":"and I don't walk into a, sorry, I don't"},{"startTime":2119.5,"endTime":2122.7,"body":"walk into a room and say, align with me."},{"startTime":2122.757,"endTime":2122.843,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2122.9,"endTime":2123.071,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2123.071,"endTime":2123.243,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2123.247,"endTime":2125.843,"body":"What I what we're doing"},{"startTime":2123.247,"endTime":2125.843,"body":"is naturally aligned."},{"startTime":2125.871,"endTime":2128.328,"body":"There are some people who just don't"},{"startTime":2125.871,"endTime":2128.328,"body":"know how to generate alignment."},{"startTime":2128.328,"endTime":2131.185,"body":"They don't understand that"},{"startTime":2128.328,"endTime":2131.185,"body":"it's an effect of other things."},{"startTime":2131.271,"endTime":2134.7,"body":"So they, they do walk in the room and"},{"startTime":2131.271,"endTime":2134.7,"body":"say, you need to alignment with me."},{"startTime":2135.224,"endTime":2136.566,"body":"The empathy for users."},{"startTime":2136.614,"endTime":2138.347,"body":"Aligning the value comes with empathy."},{"startTime":2138.519,"endTime":2141.271,"body":"If I'm talking to my users, if"},{"startTime":2138.519,"endTime":2141.271,"body":"they're in front of the development"},{"startTime":2141.271,"endTime":2143.528,"body":"team, if the development team"},{"startTime":2141.271,"endTime":2143.528,"body":"knows who those users are."},{"startTime":2143.862,"endTime":2145.547,"body":"They understand their pain"},{"startTime":2143.862,"endTime":2145.547,"body":"points, they're aligned with them."},{"startTime":2145.804,"endTime":2148.633,"body":"Boy, I'm using alignment a lot more"},{"startTime":2145.804,"endTime":2148.633,"body":"than I do on normally on a podcast."},{"startTime":2148.833,"endTime":2153.404,"body":"And then the domain knowledge we said"},{"startTime":2148.833,"endTime":2153.404,"body":"there's a lot of, this is unique to teams."},{"startTime":2153.452,"endTime":2155.738,"body":"If your teams have still to"},{"startTime":2153.452,"endTime":2155.738,"body":"learn the domain knowledge,"},{"startTime":2155.881,"endTime":2157.052,"body":"that speed's gonna be slower."},{"startTime":2157.09,"endTime":2158.176,"body":"And that goes back to."},{"startTime":2158.528,"endTime":2162.528,"body":"Uh, it may increase over time"},{"startTime":2158.528,"endTime":2162.528,"body":"through team-driven efficiencies."},{"startTime":2162.528,"endTime":2162.757,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2162.757,"endTime":2165.414,"body":"So as they got more knowledgeable"},{"startTime":2162.757,"endTime":2165.414,"body":"on the domain, they started"},{"startTime":2165.414,"endTime":2166.624,"body":"getting faster and the technology."},{"startTime":2166.947,"endTime":2167.347,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2167.424,"endTime":2167.576,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2167.576,"endTime":2167.843,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2168.271,"endTime":2170.3,"body":"And so as they learned that"},{"startTime":2168.271,"endTime":2170.3,"body":"confidential Yeah, yeah.."},{"startTime":2170.404,"endTime":2175.29,"body":"So this word keeps coming up on"},{"startTime":2170.404,"endTime":2175.29,"body":"all the points that I was making."},{"startTime":2175.295,"endTime":2176.633,"body":"I was kind of making some points."},{"startTime":2176.738,"endTime":2181.166,"body":"You actually mentioned this, I think in"},{"startTime":2176.738,"endTime":2181.166,"body":"re regards to, I guess you said capacity"},{"startTime":2181.166,"endTime":2183.481,"body":"changes, which you kind of alluded"},{"startTime":2181.166,"endTime":2183.481,"body":"to, but I'll get that in a second."},{"startTime":2183.481,"endTime":2187.624,"body":"But you started off with quality, so,"},{"startTime":2183.481,"endTime":2187.624,"body":"and you said you have to basically"},{"startTime":2187.624,"endTime":2189.309,"body":"create quality, well, number one."},{"startTime":2190.138,"endTime":2194.738,"body":"What defined, what good"},{"startTime":2190.138,"endTime":2194.738,"body":"is, what is good, right?"},{"startTime":2194.738,"endTime":2196.509,"body":"So understanding that definition."},{"startTime":2196.514,"endTime":2197.014,"body":"What is good to you?"},{"startTime":2197.157,"endTime":2199.595,"body":"This is an individual, this"},{"startTime":2197.157,"endTime":2199.595,"body":"is an individual wealth here."},{"startTime":2199.766,"endTime":2200.1,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2200.104,"endTime":2200.881,"body":"What is good to you?"},{"startTime":2200.881,"endTime":2201.281,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2201.281,"endTime":2201.909,"body":"What's good?"},{"startTime":2201.909,"endTime":2205.024,"body":"And that's going to be different"},{"startTime":2201.909,"endTime":2205.024,"body":"from team member to team member."},{"startTime":2205.024,"endTime":2205.252,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2205.252,"endTime":2207.49,"body":"Experience and as the team."},{"startTime":2207.909,"endTime":2209.995,"body":"As an entire, as an entire organism."},{"startTime":2209.995,"endTime":2210.252,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2210.252,"endTime":2211.938,"body":"So, or as an entire system, I should say."},{"startTime":2211.938,"endTime":2212.538,"body":"That'd be a better way."},{"startTime":2212.538,"endTime":2213.195,"body":"Can I pause you there for a moment?"},{"startTime":2213.195,"endTime":2213.366,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2213.424,"endTime":2216.938,"body":"I spent a lot of time on our"},{"startTime":2213.424,"endTime":2216.938,"body":"organizational values and sharing,"},{"startTime":2217.109,"endTime":2220.966,"body":"repeating and engaging the team"},{"startTime":2217.109,"endTime":2220.966,"body":"on our organizational values."},{"startTime":2220.966,"endTime":2222.281,"body":"A, so they they know them."},{"startTime":2222.452,"endTime":2222.652,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2223.166,"endTime":2225.357,"body":"And B, to try to get"},{"startTime":2223.166,"endTime":2225.357,"body":"them to align to them."},{"startTime":2225.681,"endTime":2229.052,"body":"If they don't, and if they don't"},{"startTime":2225.681,"endTime":2229.052,"body":"align to 'em, they're gonna realize"},{"startTime":2229.052,"endTime":2230.252,"body":"they're probably in the wrong place."},{"startTime":2230.257,"endTime":2230.385,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2230.824,"endTime":2233.338,"body":"So if you don't know what your"},{"startTime":2230.824,"endTime":2233.338,"body":"org, if your organization's value"},{"startTime":2233.343,"endTime":2234.652,"body":"is integrity, that's entry stakes."},{"startTime":2234.709,"endTime":2234.881,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2234.966,"endTime":2238.138,"body":"If your organizational value is"},{"startTime":2234.966,"endTime":2238.138,"body":"ethical, that's entry stakes."},{"startTime":2238.481,"endTime":2241.852,"body":"But if it's something like"},{"startTime":2238.481,"endTime":2241.852,"body":"Driven and learning, right?"},{"startTime":2241.852,"endTime":2246.109,"body":"If you're not driven and you don't like"},{"startTime":2241.852,"endTime":2246.109,"body":"learning, you're gonna know by our values,"},{"startTime":2246.109,"endTime":2248.424,"body":"you probably don't fit at some point."},{"startTime":2248.538,"endTime":2248.595,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2248.766,"endTime":2250.338,"body":"Because I'm gonna continue to drive you."},{"startTime":2250.338,"endTime":2252.995,"body":"The rest team members are gonna"},{"startTime":2250.338,"endTime":2252.995,"body":"continue to drive you and you go,"},{"startTime":2252.995,"endTime":2254.424,"body":"this space isn't unsustainable."},{"startTime":2254.509,"endTime":2254.624,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2254.852,"endTime":2254.966,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2254.971,"endTime":2256.852,"body":"Then it's probably not the right place."},{"startTime":2257.024,"endTime":2258.738,"body":"So we spend a lot of"},{"startTime":2257.024,"endTime":2258.738,"body":"time talking about it."},{"startTime":2258.743,"endTime":2262.309,"body":"On the way in, we talk about it in our"},{"startTime":2258.743,"endTime":2262.309,"body":"interview process and we talk about"},{"startTime":2262.309,"endTime":2264.062,"body":"it when you're with us to make sure."},{"startTime":2264.566,"endTime":2267.052,"body":"That our values and your"},{"startTime":2264.566,"endTime":2267.052,"body":"values for work align."},{"startTime":2267.309,"endTime":2267.824,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":2267.824,"endTime":2273.595,"body":"So the actual sustainability is the, is is"},{"startTime":2267.824,"endTime":2273.595,"body":"is very much connected to the core values."},{"startTime":2273.595,"endTime":2273.852,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":2273.909,"endTime":2276.709,"body":"That's an interesting point"},{"startTime":2273.909,"endTime":2276.709,"body":"to make, but my point here is"},{"startTime":2276.709,"endTime":2277.614,"body":"that's Gino Wickman, right?"},{"startTime":2277.824,"endTime":2278.338,"body":"Yes, it is."},{"startTime":2278.909,"endTime":2279.366,"body":"Yes, it is."},{"startTime":2279.371,"endTime":2280.833,"body":"It's go EOS Traction."},{"startTime":2280.881,"endTime":2280.882,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2280.886,"endTime":2280.966,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2281.195,"endTime":2283.252,"body":"That's a, that's a great, I I"},{"startTime":2281.195,"endTime":2283.252,"body":"was trying to fit that into the"},{"startTime":2283.252,"endTime":2285.709,"body":"podcast, but there was just no way"},{"startTime":2283.252,"endTime":2285.709,"body":"it was I did, I figured it out."},{"startTime":2285.709,"endTime":2287.024,"body":"Well, you, you, that's perfect."},{"startTime":2287.081,"endTime":2287.909,"body":"You got it done for you."},{"startTime":2287.909,"endTime":2291.166,"body":"But, but, but I like that goes back to"},{"startTime":2287.909,"endTime":2291.166,"body":"the category of alignment with leadership."},{"startTime":2291.214,"endTime":2296.171,"body":"Your leadership has to be taking active"},{"startTime":2291.214,"endTime":2296.171,"body":"role, in figuring out if people are"},{"startTime":2296.176,"endTime":2299.371,"body":"fitting into the roles they're in"},{"startTime":2296.176,"endTime":2299.371,"body":"and into the culture of the company."},{"startTime":2299.628,"endTime":2299.828,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2299.833,"endTime":2301.314,"body":"You know, that's what I was just"},{"startTime":2299.833,"endTime":2301.314,"body":"gonna go back to was culture."},{"startTime":2301.314,"endTime":2302.2,"body":"The fact that you're."},{"startTime":2302.871,"endTime":2306.7,"body":"Interviewing them and bringing them"},{"startTime":2302.871,"endTime":2306.7,"body":"on boarding with describing the"},{"startTime":2306.7,"endTime":2310.585,"body":"culture and the way that it's going"},{"startTime":2306.7,"endTime":2310.585,"body":"to be, and them deciding even after"},{"startTime":2310.585,"endTime":2313.928,"body":"the interview, okay, maybe, maybe"},{"startTime":2310.585,"endTime":2313.928,"body":"this is not the right place for me."},{"startTime":2313.928,"endTime":2314.014,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2314.271,"endTime":2316.366,"body":"It's perfect because they're"},{"startTime":2314.271,"endTime":2316.366,"body":"gonna get that going in."},{"startTime":2316.528,"endTime":2318.157,"body":"Okay, you know what,"},{"startTime":2316.528,"endTime":2318.157,"body":"nope, this isn't right."},{"startTime":2318.185,"endTime":2318.385,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2318.414,"endTime":2320.758,"body":"Instead of wasting everybody's"},{"startTime":2318.414,"endTime":2320.758,"body":"time, but we're getting in too deep."},{"startTime":2321.071,"endTime":2323.876,"body":"But that requires, leadership"},{"startTime":2321.071,"endTime":2323.876,"body":"can't abdicate this responsibility."},{"startTime":2323.876,"endTime":2326.247,"body":"They, they have to constantly keep"},{"startTime":2323.876,"endTime":2326.247,"body":"their hand on the wheel of culture."},{"startTime":2326.419,"endTime":2331.143,"body":"And part of culture is, again, to go"},{"startTime":2326.419,"endTime":2331.143,"body":"back to the Gino Wickman book are are,"},{"startTime":2331.609,"endTime":2334.343,"body":"do I have the right people and all"},{"startTime":2331.609,"endTime":2334.343,"body":"those people in the right seats mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2334.419,"endTime":2337.447,"body":"Who have the right people in the"},{"startTime":2334.419,"endTime":2337.447,"body":"right seats and you can shuffle if"},{"startTime":2337.447,"endTime":2338.476,"body":"you are sure they're the right people."},{"startTime":2338.476,"endTime":2339.962,"body":"Cause they align with your culture."},{"startTime":2340.276,"endTime":2341.619,"body":"Maybe they're just not in the right seat."},{"startTime":2341.619,"endTime":2342.333,"body":"You can shuffle them."},{"startTime":2342.562,"endTime":2347.59,"body":"But if you're the wrong people, you,"},{"startTime":2342.562,"endTime":2347.59,"body":"you gotta actively deal with this."},{"startTime":2347.619,"endTime":2347.733,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2347.933,"endTime":2351.762,"body":"I harp on Scrum about this like, you"},{"startTime":2347.933,"endTime":2351.762,"body":"wanna be self organizing, but you don't"},{"startTime":2351.762,"endTime":2353.247,"body":"have a way to fire people off the team."},{"startTime":2353.295,"endTime":2356.381,"body":"On your scrum team, you got somebody"},{"startTime":2353.295,"endTime":2356.381,"body":"that everyone knows they can't cut it."},{"startTime":2356.385,"endTime":2356.743,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2356.866,"endTime":2358.752,"body":"So how long are we gonna"},{"startTime":2356.866,"endTime":2358.752,"body":"sit around waiting mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2359.095,"endTime":2360.152,"body":"To deal with this person?"},{"startTime":2360.152,"endTime":2362.228,"body":"Well un until management"},{"startTime":2360.152,"endTime":2362.228,"body":"has documented enough cases."},{"startTime":2362.285,"endTime":2362.685,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2362.762,"endTime":2367.409,"body":"Right in order that HR will, can"},{"startTime":2362.762,"endTime":2367.409,"body":"appropriately agree, oh no, that"},{"startTime":2367.409,"endTime":2371.295,"body":"we won't be sued for wrongful"},{"startTime":2367.409,"endTime":2371.295,"body":"termination if we let them go, and"},{"startTime":2371.295,"endTime":2374.266,"body":"then we'll make sure that when we"},{"startTime":2371.295,"endTime":2374.266,"body":"let them go, they feel good about it."},{"startTime":2374.276,"endTime":2378.529,"body":"So 2005, I got to a lot of things happened"},{"startTime":2374.276,"endTime":2378.529,"body":"in my life in 2005, but bill Hybels is a"},{"startTime":2378.529,"endTime":2382.358,"body":"Christian author, so I'm not saying you"},{"startTime":2378.529,"endTime":2382.358,"body":"have to read him, but on 2005 was the"},{"startTime":2382.358,"endTime":2384.882,"body":"first time I heard him say vision leaks."},{"startTime":2384.934,"endTime":2387.82,"body":"And every year that I heard him"},{"startTime":2384.934,"endTime":2387.82,"body":"speak after that, vision leaks."},{"startTime":2388.048,"endTime":2390.534,"body":"And so when you talk about alignment,"},{"startTime":2388.048,"endTime":2390.534,"body":"you talk about value statements, and you"},{"startTime":2390.534,"endTime":2394.191,"body":"talk about missions and value, if you're"},{"startTime":2390.534,"endTime":2394.191,"body":"not sharing that all the time Right."},{"startTime":2394.191,"endTime":2396.02,"body":"It leaks, it falls out of the bucket."},{"startTime":2396.163,"endTime":2396.248,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2396.253,"endTime":2396.267,"body":"Is."},{"startTime":2396.305,"endTime":2397.62,"body":"And it's filled with something else."},{"startTime":2397.667,"endTime":2401.296,"body":"In order to gain alignment, maintain"},{"startTime":2397.667,"endTime":2401.296,"body":"alignment, and making sure that"},{"startTime":2401.867,"endTime":2405.439,"body":"everyone understands what you think"},{"startTime":2401.867,"endTime":2405.439,"body":"we're doing, you gotta talk about it."},{"startTime":2405.439,"endTime":2405.44,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2405.515,"endTime":2409.182,"body":"Otherwise it's gonna, the bucket's"},{"startTime":2405.515,"endTime":2409.182,"body":"gonna be filled with all the negativity."},{"startTime":2409.277,"endTime":2412.448,"body":"Your culture is the stories that your"},{"startTime":2409.277,"endTime":2412.448,"body":"last employees tell you about you."},{"startTime":2412.501,"endTime":2416.301,"body":"I was actually gonna get to potentially"},{"startTime":2412.501,"endTime":2416.301,"body":"an opportunity to actually measure,"},{"startTime":2416.301,"endTime":2420.132,"body":"but I'll just leave that one outta"},{"startTime":2416.301,"endTime":2420.132,"body":"here because ultimately when you talked"},{"startTime":2420.132,"endTime":2423.703,"body":"about quality, you talked about value,"},{"startTime":2420.132,"endTime":2423.703,"body":"you talked about domain knowledge,"},{"startTime":2423.703,"endTime":2428.737,"body":"capacity over time which equates to"},{"startTime":2423.703,"endTime":2428.737,"body":"maybe collaboration with the team."},{"startTime":2429.022,"endTime":2435.337,"body":"All of those things are fluid, which"},{"startTime":2429.022,"endTime":2435.337,"body":"means what is unsustainable today very"},{"startTime":2435.337,"endTime":2439.108,"body":"well may become sustainable tomorrow."},{"startTime":2439.108,"endTime":2439.508,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2439.603,"endTime":2442.346,"body":"Maybe we need to make some"},{"startTime":2439.603,"endTime":2442.346,"body":"shuffles, maybe we don't have the"},{"startTime":2442.346,"endTime":2443.575,"body":"right people sitting in the seats."},{"startTime":2443.575,"endTime":2445.717,"body":"I mean, there's a lot of"},{"startTime":2443.575,"endTime":2445.717,"body":"babies, a lot of variables here."},{"startTime":2445.717,"endTime":2450.384,"body":"But my point is, what is good"},{"startTime":2445.717,"endTime":2450.384,"body":"now is probably not gonna"},{"startTime":2450.384,"endTime":2452.156,"body":"be good a year from now."},{"startTime":2452.156,"endTime":2452.641,"body":"Well, sure."},{"startTime":2452.737,"endTime":2453.603,"body":"Fluid, fluid, fluid."},{"startTime":2453.813,"endTime":2456.784,"body":"I read it on the internet that Abe"},{"startTime":2453.813,"endTime":2456.784,"body":"Lincoln said, you never know, know how"},{"startTime":2456.789,"endTime":2458.327,"body":"close you are to success until you quit."},{"startTime":2458.956,"endTime":2459.27,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2459.27,"endTime":2462.47,"body":"And so, yes, what may be"},{"startTime":2459.27,"endTime":2462.47,"body":"unsustainable now you may have"},{"startTime":2462.498,"endTime":2464.414,"body":"been close to figuring it out."},{"startTime":2464.841,"endTime":2467.184,"body":"You may have been close to"},{"startTime":2464.841,"endTime":2467.184,"body":"making it through that gate."},{"startTime":2467.641,"endTime":2469.394,"body":"And so you never know."},{"startTime":2469.489,"endTime":2472.946,"body":"That's where I kept trying to push"},{"startTime":2469.489,"endTime":2472.946,"body":"time, how long should you suffer?"},{"startTime":2473.06,"endTime":2473.394,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2473.398,"endTime":2473.86,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2473.917,"endTime":2475.403,"body":"So now let's get into stoicism, right."},{"startTime":2475.403,"endTime":2475.86,"body":"Suffering."},{"startTime":2475.865,"endTime":2479.403,"body":"Mm-hmm how long should you suffer"},{"startTime":2475.865,"endTime":2479.403,"body":"with this unsustainable pace?"},{"startTime":2479.46,"endTime":2479.546,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2479.603,"endTime":2481.46,"body":"Before you finally go, enough is enough."},{"startTime":2481.775,"endTime":2484.517,"body":"I have to quit, or it's going to kill me."},{"startTime":2484.717,"endTime":2487.156,"body":"Uh, I'm gonna lose my family,"},{"startTime":2484.717,"endTime":2487.156,"body":"I'm gonna lose all these other"},{"startTime":2487.156,"endTime":2488.213,"body":"things are going to happen."},{"startTime":2488.441,"endTime":2489.841,"body":"I'll lose my reputation"},{"startTime":2488.441,"endTime":2489.841,"body":"and won't be hireable."},{"startTime":2489.851,"endTime":2490.184,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2490.184,"endTime":2490.413,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2490.584,"endTime":2494.984,"body":"And I think to, to that point,"},{"startTime":2490.584,"endTime":2494.984,"body":"one of the big things to determine"},{"startTime":2494.984,"endTime":2497.87,"body":"is, is there a clear end in sight?"},{"startTime":2498.184,"endTime":2498.356,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2498.356,"endTime":2501.241,"body":"And if there isn't, if it's"},{"startTime":2498.356,"endTime":2501.241,"body":"just this never ending mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2501.356,"endTime":2503.127,"body":"I'm not sure when this will ever end."},{"startTime":2503.384,"endTime":2507.127,"body":"And this would be very much, I think,"},{"startTime":2503.384,"endTime":2507.127,"body":"driven by the culture and potentially"},{"startTime":2507.132,"endTime":2512.756,"body":"leadership to recognize that and"},{"startTime":2507.132,"endTime":2512.756,"body":"and, and to drive that and understand"},{"startTime":2512.756,"endTime":2516.098,"body":"that, hey, if we are running at an"},{"startTime":2512.756,"endTime":2516.098,"body":"unsustainable pace because we are"},{"startTime":2516.103,"endTime":2520.117,"body":"understaffed, give some hope, some light."},{"startTime":2520.117,"endTime":2524.37,"body":"Try to figure out how"},{"startTime":2520.117,"endTime":2524.37,"body":"to incent your teams."},{"startTime":2524.541,"endTime":2526.798,"body":"Maybe figure out how to change things up."},{"startTime":2526.798,"endTime":2526.884,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2526.97,"endTime":2530.656,"body":"I mean, whatever it may take so that you"},{"startTime":2526.97,"endTime":2530.656,"body":"can see some light at the end of that"},{"startTime":2530.656,"endTime":2535.927,"body":"tunnel then all I need to be able to do"},{"startTime":2530.656,"endTime":2535.927,"body":"is say that I am engaged and motivated to"},{"startTime":2535.927,"endTime":2540.47,"body":"do that within my actual company, which"},{"startTime":2535.927,"endTime":2540.47,"body":"again goes back to leadership and culture."},{"startTime":2540.47,"endTime":2545.279,"body":"And so sustainable pace is a wave you go"},{"startTime":2540.47,"endTime":2545.279,"body":"above it and you go below that constant"},{"startTime":2545.479,"endTime":2547.137,"body":"and you have to be able to go up and down."},{"startTime":2547.141,"endTime":2547.317,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2547.537,"endTime":2551.337,"body":"So when we talk about unsustainable"},{"startTime":2547.537,"endTime":2551.337,"body":"is when you're always going up, right?"},{"startTime":2551.337,"endTime":2554.194,"body":"So if you use the airplane analogy,"},{"startTime":2551.337,"endTime":2554.194,"body":"you take off, at some point you"},{"startTime":2554.194,"endTime":2555.508,"body":"have to reach cruising altitude."},{"startTime":2555.937,"endTime":2556.022,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2556.308,"endTime":2556.622,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2556.708,"endTime":2558.222,"body":"And at some point you have to land."},{"startTime":2558.698,"endTime":2563.156,"body":"You can't keep going up and up and"},{"startTime":2558.698,"endTime":2563.156,"body":"up and up because a, the vehicle"},{"startTime":2563.156,"endTime":2564.527,"body":"you're in can't go that high."},{"startTime":2565.041,"endTime":2566.156,"body":"It's gonna fall outta this sky."},{"startTime":2566.679,"endTime":2569.937,"body":"You just don't have the"},{"startTime":2566.679,"endTime":2569.937,"body":"capability to keep doing that."},{"startTime":2569.937,"endTime":2575.451,"body":"So you have to find a way as a team and"},{"startTime":2569.937,"endTime":2575.451,"body":"a leader to find a, a way of working"},{"startTime":2575.451,"endTime":2583.941,"body":"together that keeps everyone safe and"},{"startTime":2575.451,"endTime":2583.941,"body":"push back on those challenges that keep"},{"startTime":2584.684,"endTime":2587.208,"body":"the pace at a level that won't work."},{"startTime":2587.351,"endTime":2587.494,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2587.494,"endTime":2588.837,"body":"You have to find a way to get back down."},{"startTime":2588.837,"endTime":2589.522,"body":"You have to find the land."},{"startTime":2589.751,"endTime":2592.779,"body":"During Desert Storm one of the"},{"startTime":2589.751,"endTime":2592.779,"body":"most amazing feats of technology"},{"startTime":2592.779,"endTime":2596.875,"body":"was, was the KC 1 35 tankers"},{"startTime":2592.779,"endTime":2596.875,"body":"creating the air bridge where they"},{"startTime":2596.875,"endTime":2598.246,"body":"were refueling planes in the air."},{"startTime":2598.251,"endTime":2598.275,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2598.351,"endTime":2599.532,"body":"So they could fly farther."},{"startTime":2600.046,"endTime":2602.075,"body":"How far, how long should"},{"startTime":2600.046,"endTime":2602.075,"body":"a pilot stay in the air?"},{"startTime":2602.932,"endTime":2604.989,"body":"When should that bridge"},{"startTime":2602.932,"endTime":2604.989,"body":"allow the pilot to land?"},{"startTime":2604.994,"endTime":2605.027,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2605.217,"endTime":2606.703,"body":"Or should they just keep"},{"startTime":2605.217,"endTime":2606.703,"body":"circling the earth Right."},{"startTime":2606.703,"endTime":2607.389,"body":"At some point."},{"startTime":2607.703,"endTime":2611.36,"body":"There's a human capacity that"},{"startTime":2607.703,"endTime":2611.36,"body":"you can't swap the seat enough"},{"startTime":2611.617,"endTime":2612.617,"body":"before someone actually has to."},{"startTime":2612.76,"endTime":2613.675,"body":"So you actually have to come down."},{"startTime":2613.732,"endTime":2614.103,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2614.189,"endTime":2618.303,"body":"So we can talk about fueling people"},{"startTime":2614.189,"endTime":2618.303,"body":"and you know, pick up a hobby that"},{"startTime":2618.308,"endTime":2620.075,"body":"fuels you and you'll do great."},{"startTime":2620.079,"endTime":2622.808,"body":"You know, go get to the gym and"},{"startTime":2620.079,"endTime":2622.808,"body":"you'll feel great at some point."},{"startTime":2622.808,"endTime":2623.608,"body":"It's where the burnout comes in."},{"startTime":2623.608,"endTime":2623.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2624.198,"endTime":2624.598,"body":"At some point."},{"startTime":2624.598,"endTime":2626.617,"body":"That's just adding to"},{"startTime":2624.598,"endTime":2626.617,"body":"something else you have to do."},{"startTime":2626.913,"endTime":2630.17,"body":"I'm gonna clear you all the land, and"},{"startTime":2626.913,"endTime":2630.17,"body":"by land I mean the end of this podcast."},{"startTime":2630.17,"endTime":2632.275,"body":"What you guys were talking"},{"startTime":2630.17,"endTime":2632.275,"body":"about  judging capacity."},{"startTime":2632.275,"endTime":2634.533,"body":"Judging when people are burned out"},{"startTime":2632.275,"endTime":2634.533,"body":"one-on-ones help a lot with that."},{"startTime":2634.741,"endTime":2637.913,"body":"Management should be checking with"},{"startTime":2634.741,"endTime":2637.913,"body":"everyone that should be on they should"},{"startTime":2637.913,"endTime":2640.741,"body":"be incented and also measured on this."},{"startTime":2640.884,"endTime":2644.008,"body":"And if they're not, what does"},{"startTime":2640.884,"endTime":2644.008,"body":"their day job entail if they're"},{"startTime":2644.008,"endTime":2645.846,"body":"not quote, managing the people"},{"startTime":2646.208,"endTime":2650.122,"body":"We talked about aligning engineering,"},{"startTime":2646.208,"endTime":2650.122,"body":"quality, alignment, quality across"},{"startTime":2650.122,"endTime":2654.008,"body":"engineering teams, quality up and"},{"startTime":2650.122,"endTime":2654.008,"body":"down to across teams inside of a team."},{"startTime":2654.013,"endTime":2654.122,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2654.665,"endTime":2657.075,"body":"We talked about Being aligned"},{"startTime":2654.665,"endTime":2657.075,"body":"with the mission and the"},{"startTime":2657.075,"endTime":2658.217,"body":"vision of the organization,"},{"startTime":2658.265,"endTime":2663.694,"body":"we talked about actually having and"},{"startTime":2658.265,"endTime":2663.694,"body":"building empathy because with empathy"},{"startTime":2663.694,"endTime":2665.808,"body":"comes, empathy comes your ability."},{"startTime":2665.813,"endTime":2666.551,"body":"It's relational value."},{"startTime":2666.608,"endTime":2667.095,"body":"Relational value."},{"startTime":2667.099,"endTime":2667.417,"body":"Value."},{"startTime":2667.465,"endTime":2667.694,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2667.694,"endTime":2668.837,"body":"Relational value comes from empathy."},{"startTime":2668.841,"endTime":2668.979,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2669.522,"endTime":2671.941,"body":"And then everything we're talking"},{"startTime":2669.522,"endTime":2671.941,"body":"about is unique to a team."},{"startTime":2672.17,"endTime":2675.513,"body":"Your domain expertise, your"},{"startTime":2672.17,"endTime":2675.513,"body":"understanding of the, the, the problems"},{"startTime":2675.513,"endTime":2680.061,"body":"up close the, the speed and quality"},{"startTime":2675.513,"endTime":2680.061,"body":"at which you deliver also kind of"},{"startTime":2680.346,"endTime":2681.975,"body":"bleed over into this one as a team."},{"startTime":2682.146,"endTime":2685.917,"body":"It's interesting that we found these"},{"startTime":2682.146,"endTime":2685.917,"body":"four categories through this discussion"},{"startTime":2686.289,"endTime":2689.775,"body":"I'd be interested if there are other"},{"startTime":2686.289,"endTime":2689.775,"body":"categories that we missed out on."},{"startTime":2689.775,"endTime":2692.489,"body":"I'm like, again, I'm sure we could"},{"startTime":2689.775,"endTime":2692.489,"body":"record for two more hours and talk"},{"startTime":2692.489,"endTime":2693.575,"body":"about a whole bunch of more stuff."},{"startTime":2693.575,"endTime":2695.975,"body":"But there's likes all good things."},{"startTime":2695.975,"endTime":2696.86,"body":"There must be an end."},{"startTime":2696.86,"endTime":2696.946,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2697.179,"endTime":2699.394,"body":"And otherwise this podcast"},{"startTime":2697.179,"endTime":2699.394,"body":"would not be sustainable."}]}