{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.298,"body":"Welcome to Arguing Agile."},{"startTime":2.478,"endTime":5.718,"body":"We are here with two product owners"},{"startTime":2.478,"endTime":5.718,"body":"and one scrum master, which is"},{"startTime":5.718,"endTime":10.31,"body":"myself, and we're going to argue"},{"startTime":5.718,"endTime":10.31,"body":"why a scrum master should move"},{"startTime":10.31,"endTime":12.68,"body":"their career to focus on product."},{"startTime":12.736,"endTime":16.086,"body":"First thing as a scrum master, you"},{"startTime":12.736,"endTime":16.086,"body":"hear this from all Scrum masters."},{"startTime":16.846,"endTime":21.026,"body":"It's considered less stressful"},{"startTime":16.846,"endTime":21.026,"body":"to focus on being a scrum"},{"startTime":21.046,"endTime":22.726,"body":"master than it is on product."},{"startTime":23.056,"endTime":23.986,"body":"Do you think that's true?"},{"startTime":24.035,"endTime":28.285,"body":"It's absolutely less stressful to"},{"startTime":24.035,"endTime":28.285,"body":"be a scrum master, however, it's"},{"startTime":28.285,"endTime":31.765,"body":"a good, fun stress if you like"},{"startTime":28.285,"endTime":31.765,"body":"your job and you're good at it."},{"startTime":32.395,"endTime":37.61,"body":"I'd rather be at a level where I'm"},{"startTime":32.395,"endTime":37.61,"body":"working and, and actually making"},{"startTime":37.86,"endTime":43.02,"body":"a difference than kind of just"},{"startTime":37.86,"endTime":43.02,"body":"talking about process all day."},{"startTime":43.05,"endTime":46.27,"body":"And I would rather the stress"},{"startTime":43.05,"endTime":46.27,"body":"that comes along with product"},{"startTime":47.07,"endTime":49.44,"body":"is worth, I think is worth it."},{"startTime":50.13,"endTime":50.76,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":50.765,"endTime":53.52,"body":"Stress kind of drives me."},{"startTime":54.24,"endTime":55.14,"body":"Stress drives you."},{"startTime":55.2,"endTime":58.05,"body":"And Trisha, you have an"},{"startTime":55.2,"endTime":58.05,"body":"interesting perspective too,"},{"startTime":58.05,"endTime":59.79,"body":"cuz you've played both roles."},{"startTime":59.85,"endTime":63.15,"body":"Yes, and I found myself bored,"},{"startTime":59.85,"endTime":63.15,"body":"although I did, I've always,"},{"startTime":63.15,"endTime":65.07,"body":"I started out as in product."},{"startTime":65.715,"endTime":69.665,"body":"Then went to scrum master to be"},{"startTime":65.715,"endTime":69.665,"body":"a, more well-rounded agilist."},{"startTime":70.135,"endTime":70.285,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":70.525,"endTime":73.59,"body":"And to learn that role"},{"startTime":70.525,"endTime":73.59,"body":"and I needed to go back."},{"startTime":73.77,"endTime":77.07,"body":"It wa it didn't last very long because"},{"startTime":73.77,"endTime":77.07,"body":"I, I, I was, I didn't have the same"},{"startTime":77.07,"endTime":80.445,"body":"control that you get when you are a"},{"startTime":77.07,"endTime":80.445,"body":"product manager or a product owner."},{"startTime":80.975,"endTime":82.355,"body":"You get to make those decisions."},{"startTime":82.355,"endTime":86.685,"body":"You are the difference between a customer"},{"startTime":82.355,"endTime":86.685,"body":"being happy and not, and you just don't"},{"startTime":86.685,"endTime":88.815,"body":"get that same reach as a scrum master."},{"startTime":88.845,"endTime":93.435,"body":"And for my personality at my what,"},{"startTime":88.845,"endTime":93.435,"body":"what drives me, I need those things."},{"startTime":93.705,"endTime":94.125,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":94.455,"endTime":95.325,"body":"That makes sense."},{"startTime":95.325,"endTime":97.585,"body":"So she feels like she has more"},{"startTime":95.325,"endTime":97.585,"body":"control and more influence"},{"startTime":97.775,"endTime":99.645,"body":"with leadership and business."},{"startTime":99.645,"endTime":100.515,"body":"What are your thoughts?"},{"startTime":101.185,"endTime":103.015,"body":"I think any role that you're"},{"startTime":101.185,"endTime":103.015,"body":"in, you're gonna be looking"},{"startTime":103.015,"endTime":104.935,"body":"to move up to the next level."},{"startTime":105.295,"endTime":105.535,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":105.535,"endTime":110.305,"body":"And if you're in a, let's say you're in"},{"startTime":105.535,"endTime":110.305,"body":"a scrum master position and you have one"},{"startTime":110.305,"endTime":112.165,"body":"team, two teams, couple teams, right?"},{"startTime":112.285,"endTime":114.835,"body":"Normal scrum masters, you're probably"},{"startTime":112.285,"endTime":114.835,"body":"gonna have a couple teams, right?"},{"startTime":114.925,"endTime":116.965,"body":"Maybe you'll float a third"},{"startTime":114.925,"endTime":116.965,"body":"and be like, oh, I'm kind of"},{"startTime":116.97,"endTime":118.395,"body":"stressed that's true, right?"},{"startTime":118.835,"endTime":121.775,"body":", I think of, I think of the positions"},{"startTime":118.835,"endTime":121.775,"body":"for a scrum master that are like"},{"startTime":121.825,"endTime":127.315,"body":"financial shops where you're like a,"},{"startTime":121.825,"endTime":127.315,"body":"a, a safe scaled scrum master where"},{"startTime":127.315,"endTime":131.635,"body":"you're like helping conduct release"},{"startTime":127.315,"endTime":131.635,"body":"train events and stuff like that."},{"startTime":131.635,"endTime":131.755,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":131.995,"endTime":133.945,"body":"That's way more stressful to me Yeah."},{"startTime":133.95,"endTime":138.025,"body":"Than the concept of being like a"},{"startTime":133.95,"endTime":138.025,"body":"single team product manager for a"},{"startTime":138.025,"endTime":142.015,"body":"single product like that, that, that,"},{"startTime":138.025,"endTime":142.015,"body":"that idea like just freaks me out"},{"startTime":142.02,"endTime":144.955,"body":"because you, you're not at the point"},{"startTime":142.02,"endTime":144.955,"body":"where you're a scaled scrum master."},{"startTime":145.165,"endTime":147.595,"body":"You're not even a scrum master anymore."},{"startTime":147.625,"endTime":151.155,"body":"Like you're more of  a project manager"},{"startTime":147.625,"endTime":151.155,"body":"the, the majority of your job is like"},{"startTime":151.215,"endTime":156.315,"body":"operations as opposed to developing"},{"startTime":151.215,"endTime":156.315,"body":"a team and, and helping a team move"},{"startTime":156.315,"endTime":159.615,"body":"through and develop their agile maturity."},{"startTime":159.615,"endTime":162.495,"body":"I try not to say maturity on the"},{"startTime":159.615,"endTime":162.495,"body":"podcast cause it's not a great word."},{"startTime":162.495,"endTime":163.935,"body":"Doesn't really communicate"},{"startTime":162.495,"endTime":163.935,"body":"what I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":163.995,"endTime":164.295,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":164.385,"endTime":168.735,"body":"As a product manager, you could stay in"},{"startTime":164.385,"endTime":168.735,"body":"the track of a product manager, of being"},{"startTime":168.735,"endTime":170.655,"body":"a product manager for many years Yes."},{"startTime":170.685,"endTime":176.215,"body":"And still develop things that you haven't"},{"startTime":170.685,"endTime":176.215,"body":"been exposed to early in your career."},{"startTime":176.215,"endTime":176.905,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":176.935,"endTime":177.505,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":177.505,"endTime":179.775,"body":"Just by changing industry, I"},{"startTime":177.505,"endTime":179.775,"body":"mean, it seems like every product"},{"startTime":180.205,"endTime":181.825,"body":"manager job is different, right?"},{"startTime":182.065,"endTime":184.255,"body":"There's no, no two are"},{"startTime":182.065,"endTime":184.255,"body":"exactly the same, right?"},{"startTime":184.285,"endTime":184.495,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":184.985,"endTime":188.945,"body":"I could see from the"},{"startTime":184.985,"endTime":188.945,"body":"perspective of less stress Yes."},{"startTime":188.975,"endTime":192.515,"body":"In that the, like the, the, the"},{"startTime":188.975,"endTime":192.515,"body":"weight of the business does not lay"},{"startTime":192.515,"endTime":193.775,"body":"on your shoulders just like a mm-hmm."},{"startTime":193.895,"endTime":195.185,"body":"Like a company founder Exactly."},{"startTime":195.185,"endTime":196.565,"body":"Or a business owner or somebody like that."},{"startTime":196.745,"endTime":196.835,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":196.835,"endTime":197.495,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":197.565,"endTime":202.45,"body":"However I feel the, like the best scrum"},{"startTime":197.565,"endTime":202.45,"body":"masters that I've been coupled with"},{"startTime":202.78,"endTime":206.92,"body":"know how to do the product job, and they"},{"startTime":202.78,"endTime":206.92,"body":"can see where the product owner on the"},{"startTime":206.92,"endTime":211.19,"body":"team is kind of fraying at the edges"},{"startTime":206.92,"endTime":211.19,"body":"and they step in and help with that."},{"startTime":212.0,"endTime":215.87,"body":"So from that perspective, like you're"},{"startTime":212.0,"endTime":215.87,"body":"already doing parts of that job."},{"startTime":216.27,"endTime":220.2,"body":"Like why not just if you, if you are,"},{"startTime":216.27,"endTime":220.2,"body":"if you're kind of on the periphery of"},{"startTime":220.2,"endTime":222.71,"body":"the job, why not just figure out how"},{"startTime":220.2,"endTime":222.71,"body":"to do the whole thing and then mm-hmm."},{"startTime":222.79,"endTime":223.31,"body":"Just move over."},{"startTime":223.31,"endTime":223.51,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":223.62,"endTime":224.22,"body":"Just move over."},{"startTime":224.62,"endTime":228.34,"body":"Maybe I don't want that responsibility"},{"startTime":224.62,"endTime":228.34,"body":"of making decisions because really"},{"startTime":228.34,"endTime":231.85,"body":"in a, in a scrum master role, at"},{"startTime":228.34,"endTime":231.85,"body":"least in the positions that I've been"},{"startTime":231.85,"endTime":235.04,"body":"in enterprise, well, I was a scrum"},{"startTime":231.85,"endTime":235.04,"body":"master in an enterprise situation."},{"startTime":235.42,"endTime":237.88,"body":"I was an agile project manager."},{"startTime":238.28,"endTime":240.32,"body":"Essentially a scrum"},{"startTime":238.28,"endTime":240.32,"body":"master, but in a startup."},{"startTime":240.32,"endTime":244.99,"body":"Mm-hmm the agile project manager was"},{"startTime":240.32,"endTime":244.99,"body":"very stressful, it was two different"},{"startTime":244.99,"endTime":248.17,"body":"teams and seven different applications."},{"startTime":248.17,"endTime":249.32,"body":"Separate mobile applications."},{"startTime":249.34,"endTime":249.56,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":250.02,"endTime":254.05,"body":"So in that instance, but that's"},{"startTime":250.02,"endTime":254.05,"body":"not a normal, when we were talk,"},{"startTime":254.05,"endTime":257.2,"body":"I, I think, I thought we were"},{"startTime":254.05,"endTime":257.2,"body":"talking about a normal scrum master."},{"startTime":257.38,"endTime":258.58,"body":"See, with one team."},{"startTime":258.58,"endTime":258.581,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":258.7,"endTime":263.62,"body":"See, you say it's not normal, but"},{"startTime":258.7,"endTime":263.62,"body":"I, the, my scrum master experience"},{"startTime":263.62,"endTime":267.19,"body":"is your reward for success is, is"},{"startTime":263.62,"endTime":267.19,"body":"another team down with more teams."},{"startTime":267.19,"endTime":268.96,"body":"And I, I, that is true is not normal."},{"startTime":269.35,"endTime":271.33,"body":"I, I'm saying I think you could be right."},{"startTime":271.33,"endTime":272.14,"body":"You could be right."},{"startTime":272.19,"endTime":276.42,"body":"If I'm the business owner and you're"},{"startTime":272.19,"endTime":276.42,"body":"the scrum master in my business and I'm"},{"startTime":276.42,"endTime":281.312,"body":"trying to grow you as an employee, What"},{"startTime":276.42,"endTime":281.312,"body":"is your next step up from Scrum master?"},{"startTime":281.322,"endTime":284.172,"body":"We're we're sitting down to have our"},{"startTime":281.322,"endTime":284.172,"body":"career counseling session and be like,"},{"startTime":284.172,"endTime":285.942,"body":"where do you want to go in the business?"},{"startTime":285.942,"endTime":289.722,"body":"Jessica, you've already sat down"},{"startTime":285.942,"endTime":289.722,"body":"and you've already worked through"},{"startTime":289.932,"endTime":291.612,"body":"these issues of team empowerment."},{"startTime":291.762,"endTime":295.032,"body":"You understand issues of org design where"},{"startTime":291.762,"endTime":295.032,"body":"other people don't, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":295.032,"endTime":298.032,"body":"You have like, people have to go"},{"startTime":295.032,"endTime":298.032,"body":"through MBA classes to even get"},{"startTime":298.182,"endTime":300.072,"body":"exposed to this kind of stuff."},{"startTime":300.072,"endTime":301.062,"body":"How does a team develop?"},{"startTime":301.062,"endTime":302.112,"body":"How do I start a team new?"},{"startTime":302.292,"endTime":305.862,"body":"How do I get people working together,"},{"startTime":302.292,"endTime":305.862,"body":"these, these, these types of issues that"},{"startTime":305.892,"endTime":310.062,"body":"this is not like a professional, you could"},{"startTime":305.892,"endTime":310.062,"body":"argue that HR should have these skills."},{"startTime":310.462,"endTime":313.192,"body":"People know when I talk about HR"},{"startTime":310.462,"endTime":313.192,"body":"on the podcast, like that's the"},{"startTime":313.192,"endTime":315.892,"body":"end of the podcast, so I'm gonna"},{"startTime":313.192,"endTime":315.892,"body":"hard pivot to not talk about it."},{"startTime":316.312,"endTime":318.292,"body":"But once, like once you have"},{"startTime":316.312,"endTime":318.292,"body":"all these skills of getting"},{"startTime":318.292,"endTime":319.702,"body":"people to work together mm-hmm."},{"startTime":319.782,"endTime":323.962,"body":"Where, what's the, where, where"},{"startTime":319.782,"endTime":323.962,"body":"are you launching to after that?"},{"startTime":324.682,"endTime":325.192,"body":"Don't you think?"},{"startTime":325.192,"endTime":326.272,"body":"It depends on the company."},{"startTime":326.392,"endTime":326.572,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":326.572,"endTime":327.052,"body":"It sure does."},{"startTime":327.052,"endTime":331.132,"body":"It has, it has to because are they"},{"startTime":327.052,"endTime":331.132,"body":"are, are they Scrum where they're"},{"startTime":331.132,"endTime":333.142,"body":"taking it all the way to Agile coach?"},{"startTime":333.402,"endTime":334.262,"body":"Are they Right."},{"startTime":334.492,"endTime":339.112,"body":"Are they really looking to"},{"startTime":334.492,"endTime":339.112,"body":"embed Agile in their company?"},{"startTime":339.502,"endTime":342.862,"body":"And if that answer is no, you"},{"startTime":339.502,"endTime":342.862,"body":"really have reached the ceiling."},{"startTime":342.862,"endTime":344.572,"body":"I think, I mean, where are you gonna go?"},{"startTime":344.572,"endTime":345.172,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":345.442,"endTime":349.822,"body":"If it is more of a we've adopted Agile"},{"startTime":345.442,"endTime":349.822,"body":"and this is the way we're gonna go,"},{"startTime":349.827,"endTime":352.322,"body":"then you do have a little bit more"},{"startTime":349.827,"endTime":352.322,"body":"leverage and you could end up being"},{"startTime":352.672,"endTime":357.492,"body":"the head of project management or  The"},{"startTime":352.672,"endTime":357.492,"body":"Scrum Masters or the PMO or whatever."},{"startTime":357.522,"endTime":361.212,"body":"But I, I, it absolutely depends"},{"startTime":357.522,"endTime":361.212,"body":"on the level of the agility"},{"startTime":361.212,"endTime":362.262,"body":"of the company, I would think."},{"startTime":362.267,"endTime":362.622,"body":"Sure, sure."},{"startTime":362.772,"endTime":363.372,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":363.372,"endTime":363.732,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":363.737,"endTime":367.692,"body":"I mean, as a Scrum master, Like"},{"startTime":363.737,"endTime":367.692,"body":"you mentioned, if I get air"},{"startTime":367.692,"endTime":371.262,"body":"quotations promoted, it's really"},{"startTime":367.692,"endTime":371.262,"body":"me moving away from my teams."},{"startTime":371.262,"endTime":371.562,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":371.562,"endTime":373.962,"body":"So like I'm allowing them"},{"startTime":371.562,"endTime":373.962,"body":"to work more autonomously."},{"startTime":373.962,"endTime":377.562,"body":"I'm moving myself from being a"},{"startTime":373.962,"endTime":377.562,"body":"scrum master who's very involved,"},{"startTime":377.712,"endTime":380.472,"body":"maybe to more of a coach,"},{"startTime":377.712,"endTime":380.472,"body":"making sure that they're mm-hmm."},{"startTime":380.712,"endTime":382.777,"body":"Is staying and doing what"},{"startTime":380.712,"endTime":382.777,"body":"they're supposed to be doing."},{"startTime":382.837,"endTime":385.837,"body":"And then, like you said,"},{"startTime":382.837,"endTime":385.837,"body":"we get more teams, right?"},{"startTime":386.287,"endTime":387.487,"body":"We're promoted to more teams."},{"startTime":387.757,"endTime":391.417,"body":"Well, the, that's, I mean, the,"},{"startTime":387.757,"endTime":391.417,"body":"the reality, again because I'm, I'm"},{"startTime":391.422,"endTime":394.957,"body":"concerned about everybody, like with"},{"startTime":391.422,"endTime":394.957,"body":"all the layoffs and people and stuff"},{"startTime":394.957,"endTime":396.637,"body":"that you see going on and happening."},{"startTime":396.637,"endTime":396.638,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":396.643,"endTime":396.647,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":397.057,"endTime":400.417,"body":"I'm very concerned that companies don't"},{"startTime":397.057,"endTime":400.417,"body":"see value in, they can't connect, that's"},{"startTime":400.477,"endTime":402.877,"body":"directly connect value to the position."},{"startTime":403.322,"endTime":405.902,"body":"I promise I wasn't gonna bring this"},{"startTime":403.322,"endTime":405.902,"body":"up on the podcast, but here we go."},{"startTime":405.912,"endTime":408.632,"body":"I don't know if this is gonna survive,"},{"startTime":405.912,"endTime":408.632,"body":", I, I'm concerned that now, like you"},{"startTime":408.632,"endTime":410.632,"body":"see a drawing down of the roles mm-hmm."},{"startTime":410.687,"endTime":414.077,"body":"The good roles where you can actually"},{"startTime":410.687,"endTime":414.077,"body":"like expand your skillset and be"},{"startTime":414.077,"endTime":416.087,"body":"influential and, and make a difference."},{"startTime":416.597,"endTime":419.087,"body":"I see those roles drawing"},{"startTime":416.597,"endTime":419.087,"body":"down in the market."},{"startTime":419.087,"endTime":420.137,"body":"I see less of those jobs."},{"startTime":420.317,"endTime":423.537,"body":"I think 10 years from now there's"},{"startTime":420.317,"endTime":423.537,"body":"going to be even less of those jobs."},{"startTime":423.737,"endTime":425.402,"body":"I think they'll move on to other things."},{"startTime":425.432,"endTime":425.547,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":425.547,"endTime":430.937,"body":"I, I absolutely 100% agree that We"},{"startTime":425.547,"endTime":430.937,"body":"are doing it now as a startup, we are"},{"startTime":430.937,"endTime":435.107,"body":"surviving and we are creating products"},{"startTime":430.937,"endTime":435.107,"body":"and services without the need for a"},{"startTime":435.107,"endTime":438.017,"body":"scrum master, without, I mean, yeah."},{"startTime":438.017,"endTime":438.857,"body":"Do we have problems?"},{"startTime":438.857,"endTime":439.457,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":439.727,"endTime":441.407,"body":"Would a scrum master fix them?"},{"startTime":442.097,"endTime":443.057,"body":"Possibly."},{"startTime":443.257,"endTime":445.508,"body":"Are we gonna invest the time and"},{"startTime":443.257,"endTime":445.508,"body":"money in getting a scrum master?"},{"startTime":445.513,"endTime":446.647,"body":"Absolutely not."},{"startTime":446.647,"endTime":447.097,"body":"Probably not."},{"startTime":447.097,"endTime":447.277,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":447.877,"endTime":451.707,"body":"The last couple of companies that"},{"startTime":447.877,"endTime":451.707,"body":"I've come into in a purely product"},{"startTime":451.707,"endTime":455.547,"body":"perspective, I've sat down with the"},{"startTime":451.707,"endTime":455.547,"body":"leadership of the company and  laid"},{"startTime":455.547,"endTime":460.247,"body":"down some guidelines like, Hey I have"},{"startTime":455.547,"endTime":460.247,"body":"all this experience building teams and"},{"startTime":460.252,"endTime":464.007,"body":"understanding when teams are going off"},{"startTime":460.252,"endTime":464.007,"body":"track and understanding like I can see"},{"startTime":464.127,"endTime":465.897,"body":"poor engineering practices happening."},{"startTime":465.897,"endTime":465.898,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":465.904,"endTime":466.957,"body":"And I do know how to correct it."},{"startTime":466.977,"endTime":467.397,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":467.477,"endTime":469.259,"body":"However, That's not what I'm here for."},{"startTime":469.259,"endTime":471.719,"body":"Like I have to dedicate myself"},{"startTime":469.259,"endTime":471.719,"body":"to learning your business."},{"startTime":471.719,"endTime":474.989,"body":"That's exactly, becoming an expert"},{"startTime":471.719,"endTime":474.989,"body":"in the domain of, of figuring out"},{"startTime":474.989,"endTime":477.929,"body":"and maintaining your roadmap and your"},{"startTime":474.989,"endTime":477.929,"body":"backlog, talking to your stakeholders,"},{"startTime":477.934,"endTime":480.749,"body":"talking to your investors, leveraging"},{"startTime":477.934,"endTime":480.749,"body":"relationships, and I just don't"},{"startTime":480.749,"endTime":483.029,"body":"have time to, to do this of the job."},{"startTime":483.149,"endTime":486.879,"body":"Although, the small business person will"},{"startTime":483.149,"endTime":486.879,"body":"be like, well, you have the skill, so"},{"startTime":486.909,"endTime":489.069,"body":"why wouldn't you, why would you not?"},{"startTime":489.309,"endTime":489.579,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":489.584,"endTime":489.689,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":490.239,"endTime":492.069,"body":"It's just because it's a matter of time."},{"startTime":492.069,"endTime":495.769,"body":"Like, I I if you read even if you"},{"startTime":492.069,"endTime":495.769,"body":"go back to like Marty Cagan inspired"},{"startTime":495.774,"endTime":497.489,"body":"like the, the, the Bible Yeah."},{"startTime":497.489,"endTime":499.429,"body":"The art typical product manager book."},{"startTime":499.859,"endTime":503.559,"body":"You know, even in that book, he's like"},{"startTime":499.859,"endTime":503.559,"body":"to do the, the good job of a or to"},{"startTime":503.559,"endTime":505.029,"body":"do a great job as a product manager."},{"startTime":505.119,"endTime":507.369,"body":"I have never seen anyone that"},{"startTime":505.119,"endTime":507.369,"body":"works less than 60 hours."},{"startTime":507.374,"endTime":507.699,"body":"That's that's right."},{"startTime":507.704,"endTime":509.019,"body":"He just says it in that book."},{"startTime":509.299,"endTime":509.649,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":509.839,"endTime":510.259,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":510.264,"endTime":511.519,"body":"So that's way more stressful."},{"startTime":511.524,"endTime":514.13,"body":"I don't know many scrum masters"},{"startTime":511.524,"endTime":514.13,"body":"who work more than 45 hours a week."},{"startTime":514.904,"endTime":518.904,"body":"Well, you, you don't, you"},{"startTime":514.904,"endTime":518.904,"body":"don't need to like I, I will"},{"startTime":518.904,"endTime":520.244,"body":"push back against Marty Cagan."},{"startTime":520.244,"endTime":521.304,"body":"I can't believe I'm going here."},{"startTime":521.874,"endTime":524.544,"body":"I'll push back against Marty Cagan"},{"startTime":521.874,"endTime":524.544,"body":"and say, I think you can do it in 40."},{"startTime":524.664,"endTime":525.504,"body":"You can do it in 40."},{"startTime":525.504,"endTime":528.984,"body":"If, if you're with a company that"},{"startTime":525.504,"endTime":528.984,"body":"respects the position and understands"},{"startTime":528.984,"endTime":531.364,"body":"that there's only so much you can"},{"startTime":528.984,"endTime":531.364,"body":"do before you start dropping things."},{"startTime":531.424,"endTime":531.644,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":531.994,"endTime":533.275,"body":"Like any employee, right."},{"startTime":533.514,"endTime":535.194,"body":"There's always work to do in product."},{"startTime":535.284,"endTime":536.634,"body":"There's always work to do."},{"startTime":536.694,"endTime":536.844,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":536.904,"endTime":539.424,"body":"Whether you're looking through"},{"startTime":536.904,"endTime":539.424,"body":"your backlog or you're gonna write"},{"startTime":539.424,"endTime":543.474,"body":"some user stories, it's all about"},{"startTime":539.424,"endTime":543.474,"body":"what it needs to be done today."},{"startTime":543.674,"endTime":547.194,"body":"The typical product managers are not"},{"startTime":543.674,"endTime":547.194,"body":"gonna go for like, working 60 hours"},{"startTime":547.214,"endTime":547.724,"body":"what is it?"},{"startTime":547.724,"endTime":549.374,"body":"Uh diminishing returns."},{"startTime":549.404,"endTime":549.734,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":549.794,"endTime":553.044,"body":"At some point you just, there's"},{"startTime":549.794,"endTime":553.044,"body":"only so much creativity."},{"startTime":553.064,"endTime":553.484,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":553.844,"endTime":559.114,"body":"And and stuff you can drag outta somebody"},{"startTime":553.844,"endTime":559.114,"body":"in an eight hour, 10 hour day, you know?"},{"startTime":559.354,"endTime":562.964,"body":"But the point of me bringing all that"},{"startTime":559.354,"endTime":562.964,"body":"up was, I was drawing a line in the"},{"startTime":562.964,"endTime":567.084,"body":"sand with my leadership to say like,"},{"startTime":562.964,"endTime":567.084,"body":"Hey, if you really value someone that"},{"startTime":567.084,"endTime":570.384,"body":"really understands organizational design,"},{"startTime":567.084,"endTime":570.384,"body":"someone that can sit with the teams and"},{"startTime":570.384,"endTime":574.764,"body":"help them develop somebody that know"},{"startTime":570.384,"endTime":574.764,"body":"who has been where they are going and"},{"startTime":574.764,"endTime":578.304,"body":"can guide them along the way, you need"},{"startTime":574.764,"endTime":578.304,"body":"to find, you need to bring somebody in"},{"startTime":578.304,"endTime":579.654,"body":"and, and dedicate them to doing that."},{"startTime":579.704,"endTime":584.634,"body":"When the team asks because they are at"},{"startTime":579.704,"endTime":584.634,"body":"like, at an impasse or just frustrated"},{"startTime":584.634,"endTime":586.914,"body":"or whatever, I will tell them what's"},{"startTime":584.634,"endTime":586.914,"body":"on the other side of the mountain."},{"startTime":587.094,"endTime":589.544,"body":"I'll be like, Hey guys if you're"},{"startTime":587.094,"endTime":589.544,"body":"frustrated because you don't"},{"startTime":589.544,"endTime":593.199,"body":"understand, this is why we did the,"},{"startTime":589.544,"endTime":593.199,"body":"the last podcast the podcast is that's"},{"startTime":593.199,"endTime":597.919,"body":"live right now on going from a team"},{"startTime":593.199,"endTime":597.919,"body":"who estimates and has like all the"},{"startTime":597.919,"endTime":599.629,"body":"estimation problems and stuff Yeah."},{"startTime":599.659,"endTime":600.949,"body":"To a team that doesn't estimate at all."},{"startTime":601.069,"endTime":602.359,"body":"You don't even spend any time on it."},{"startTime":602.364,"endTime":603.679,"body":"You just bang out your story."},{"startTime":604.069,"endTime":606.469,"body":"That's what we don't, we"},{"startTime":604.069,"endTime":606.469,"body":"don't, yeah, we don't estimate."},{"startTime":606.469,"endTime":609.439,"body":"But you, you, in order to get there, you"},{"startTime":606.469,"endTime":609.439,"body":"have to have somebody who understands"},{"startTime":609.439,"endTime":612.469,"body":"like, okay, we're pointing now and we"},{"startTime":609.439,"endTime":612.469,"body":"talk about this and these is the reason"},{"startTime":612.469,"endTime":613.669,"body":"we're doing, pointing this, whatever."},{"startTime":613.759,"endTime":618.914,"body":"And then, hey why don't we try instead of"},{"startTime":613.759,"endTime":618.914,"body":"having like a an eight and a 13 and a five"},{"startTime":618.914,"endTime":620.115,"body":"and one, two and three, how about this?"},{"startTime":620.134,"endTime":626.114,"body":"Um, if you guys don't feel that a"},{"startTime":620.134,"endTime":626.114,"body":"story is a five or you know, 1, 2,"},{"startTime":626.114,"endTime":629.994,"body":"3, or five, just say it's too big"},{"startTime":626.114,"endTime":629.994,"body":"and we'll keep breaking it down until"},{"startTime":629.999,"endTime":631.704,"body":"everyone on the team just thumbs up."},{"startTime":631.944,"endTime":634.674,"body":"It's a five or less and"},{"startTime":631.944,"endTime":634.674,"body":"we'll just start with that."},{"startTime":634.944,"endTime":637.969,"body":"You know, or like if you're doing"},{"startTime":634.944,"endTime":637.969,"body":"time Hey, can I finish this and put"},{"startTime":637.969,"endTime":639.13,"body":"it out to production in two days?"},{"startTime":639.894,"endTime":640.074,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":640.104,"endTime":642.294,"body":"And just keep breaking, breaking,"},{"startTime":640.104,"endTime":642.294,"body":"breaking, breaking down, and"},{"startTime":642.294,"endTime":645.024,"body":"just stay in refinement until"},{"startTime":642.294,"endTime":645.024,"body":"everyone gives a thumbs up."},{"startTime":645.234,"endTime":647.124,"body":"And that that's a strategy you can get to."},{"startTime":647.124,"endTime":647.514,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":647.694,"endTime":649.374,"body":"To start to move beyond estimation."},{"startTime":649.374,"endTime":651.029,"body":"If you're all hung up on like, yes."},{"startTime":651.034,"endTime":651.449,"body":"Oh, I don't know."},{"startTime":651.449,"endTime":652.649,"body":"It might be an eight, it might be a five."},{"startTime":652.654,"endTime":652.949,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":652.949,"endTime":655.529,"body":"Like, cuz the value is not"},{"startTime":652.949,"endTime":655.529,"body":"in the eight of the five."},{"startTime":655.534,"endTime":657.119,"body":"The value is in the discussion"},{"startTime":655.534,"endTime":657.119,"body":"that gets you there."},{"startTime":657.119,"endTime":657.72,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":657.725,"endTime":661.379,"body":"Anyway, like the point is, you've,"},{"startTime":657.725,"endTime":661.379,"body":"as a scrum master, you probably have"},{"startTime":661.469,"endTime":665.339,"body":"already been through a bunch of teams"},{"startTime":661.469,"endTime":665.339,"body":"who started with like chaos and then"},{"startTime":665.339,"endTime":668.189,"body":"moved to pointing or moved to hours or"},{"startTime":665.339,"endTime":668.189,"body":"moved to something else and then got"},{"startTime":668.194,"endTime":670.379,"body":"through that and maybe evolved past that."},{"startTime":670.559,"endTime":674.544,"body":"Or maybe evolved out of the scrum you"},{"startTime":670.559,"endTime":674.544,"body":"know, events and now they're doing kanban"},{"startTime":674.564,"endTime":678.604,"body":"just cuz when they have something in the"},{"startTime":674.564,"endTime":678.604,"body":"fit to show, they just get the users, pull"},{"startTime":678.604,"endTime":680.374,"body":"a demo ad hoc, throw it on the calendar."},{"startTime":680.404,"endTime":680.584,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":680.644,"endTime":683.344,"body":"Show the user and then they move on and"},{"startTime":680.644,"endTime":683.344,"body":"they don't, they basically don't need a"},{"startTime":683.344,"endTime":684.584,"body":"sprint planning and all this other stuff."},{"startTime":684.584,"endTime":684.824,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":685.084,"endTime":687.894,"body":"So if, if you've been through"},{"startTime":685.084,"endTime":687.894,"body":"all that I'm just, this is, I'm"},{"startTime":687.894,"endTime":689.184,"body":"gonna roll it back into my pitch."},{"startTime":689.394,"endTime":693.354,"body":"If you've been to through all that and"},{"startTime":689.394,"endTime":693.354,"body":"you understand all that, and especially"},{"startTime":693.354,"endTime":695.934,"body":"if you're in a company that has limited"},{"startTime":693.354,"endTime":695.934,"body":"resources and maybe they're looking"},{"startTime":695.934,"endTime":699.534,"body":"for a product manager and they don't"},{"startTime":695.934,"endTime":699.534,"body":"they, they're having difficulty finding"},{"startTime":699.539,"endTime":702.114,"body":"one or finding the right one , and"},{"startTime":699.539,"endTime":702.114,"body":"they have this scrum master over here"},{"startTime":702.114,"endTime":704.394,"body":"who's like, oh, well you understand"},{"startTime":702.114,"endTime":704.394,"body":"our products cuz you've been here for"},{"startTime":704.394,"endTime":707.874,"body":"a while, you understand our um market"},{"startTime":704.394,"endTime":707.874,"body":"segment or our domain or whatever."},{"startTime":707.874,"endTime":710.514,"body":"Cuz you've been here for a while"},{"startTime":707.874,"endTime":710.514,"body":"and that all the teams know you."},{"startTime":710.904,"endTime":711.624,"body":"It makes a lot of sense."},{"startTime":711.624,"endTime":711.744,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":711.744,"endTime":716.454,"body":"To just move over into this lateral"},{"startTime":711.744,"endTime":716.454,"body":"position and everyone will know that"},{"startTime":716.454,"endTime":717.394,"body":"you have to be trained and mm-hmm."},{"startTime":717.574,"endTime":717.874,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":717.874,"endTime":718.114,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":718.524,"endTime":719.474,"body":"You have to be trained anyway though."},{"startTime":719.874,"endTime":720.624,"body":"You have to be trained anyway."},{"startTime":720.834,"endTime":722.154,"body":"You have to be trained anyway."},{"startTime":722.154,"endTime":726.654,"body":"And every job is, the weirdness about"},{"startTime":722.154,"endTime":726.654,"body":"product, and I've told you this before,"},{"startTime":726.654,"endTime":729.174,"body":"is that every single place is different."},{"startTime":729.179,"endTime":729.894,"body":"So product."},{"startTime":730.344,"endTime":734.664,"body":"Brian and I have the same role,"},{"startTime":730.344,"endTime":734.664,"body":"but we probably ha our job and our"},{"startTime":734.669,"endTime":737.094,"body":"day to day looks vastly different."},{"startTime":737.099,"endTime":737.264,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":737.424,"endTime":741.294,"body":"I have a hardware component I have to"},{"startTime":737.424,"endTime":741.294,"body":"deal with with that it's just a completely"},{"startTime":741.299,"endTime":742.404,"body":"different, it's more of a startup."},{"startTime":742.404,"endTime":745.794,"body":"We're getting ready to raise our"},{"startTime":742.404,"endTime":745.794,"body":"series b I don't know exactly"},{"startTime":745.799,"endTime":749.544,"body":"where your company is, but it's"},{"startTime":745.799,"endTime":749.544,"body":"just, it's, it's so different."},{"startTime":749.544,"endTime":751.559,"body":"Anybody they get from outside,"},{"startTime":749.544,"endTime":751.559,"body":"they're gonna have to train."},{"startTime":751.559,"endTime":752.319,"body":"That's They have to train."},{"startTime":752.449,"endTime":752.689,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":752.749,"endTime":752.869,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":752.869,"endTime":753.499,"body":"So why not you?"},{"startTime":753.504,"endTime":757.879,"body":"Well, so one thing that I don't know"},{"startTime":753.504,"endTime":757.879,"body":"how they train, I haven't seen many"},{"startTime":757.879,"endTime":762.469,"body":"places train around this is conflict"},{"startTime":757.879,"endTime":762.469,"body":"resolution and negotiation skills."},{"startTime":762.529,"endTime":764.749,"body":"And I feel like that they're"},{"startTime":762.529,"endTime":764.749,"body":"not gonna train for that."},{"startTime":764.839,"endTime":765.439,"body":"Of course not."},{"startTime":765.439,"endTime":768.619,"body":"But that is so important to have"},{"startTime":765.439,"endTime":768.619,"body":"those skills as a product person."},{"startTime":768.619,"endTime":773.9,"body":"So you go outside and learn, take"},{"startTime":768.619,"endTime":773.9,"body":"a LinkedIn course or beef that up."},{"startTime":774.389,"endTime":776.599,"body":"Well what, because those are important."},{"startTime":776.869,"endTime":782.179,"body":"What you're pointing out now is that"},{"startTime":776.869,"endTime":782.179,"body":"as a scrum master, you have already"},{"startTime":782.179,"endTime":786.289,"body":"acquired leadership skill because like"},{"startTime":782.179,"endTime":786.289,"body":"the servant leader position is not,"},{"startTime":786.289,"endTime":788.239,"body":"it's, it's not a management position."},{"startTime":788.239,"endTime":790.609,"body":"I mean, like a project manager is"},{"startTime":788.239,"endTime":790.609,"body":"sort of like a management position."},{"startTime":790.609,"endTime":790.61,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":790.699,"endTime":793.879,"body":"Or like a, or like, I guess"},{"startTime":790.699,"endTime":793.879,"body":"some, you could make the argument"},{"startTime":793.879,"endTime":796.639,"body":"that some SAFe positions or"},{"startTime":793.879,"endTime":796.639,"body":"like management position anyway."},{"startTime":796.689,"endTime":801.039,"body":"The leadership skill that you've"},{"startTime":796.689,"endTime":801.039,"body":"acquired by not having authority"},{"startTime":801.039,"endTime":804.759,"body":"in the organization and only having"},{"startTime":801.039,"endTime":804.759,"body":"influence when, when they say"},{"startTime":804.759,"endTime":805.779,"body":"influence for scrum master mm-hmm."},{"startTime":806.469,"endTime":807.789,"body":"They really mean leadership."},{"startTime":807.789,"endTime":808.45,"body":"That's what they're talking about."},{"startTime":808.455,"endTime":808.609,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":808.819,"endTime":812.239,"body":"You're using leadership skill and ability"},{"startTime":808.819,"endTime":812.239,"body":"to communicate with different people to"},{"startTime":812.239,"endTime":813.569,"body":"align them to what you're trying to do."},{"startTime":813.969,"endTime":819.999,"body":"The product manager uses those same skills"},{"startTime":813.969,"endTime":819.999,"body":"to establish and promote a vision mm-hmm."},{"startTime":820.179,"endTime":821.379,"body":"For the product, right?"},{"startTime":821.379,"endTime":821.469,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":821.479,"endTime":823.269,"body":"Which comes from the"},{"startTime":821.479,"endTime":823.269,"body":"company's vision, right?"},{"startTime":823.269,"endTime":823.329,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":823.749,"endTime":827.214,"body":"And to follow along with the mission"},{"startTime":823.749,"endTime":827.214,"body":"and the vision, and to develop"},{"startTime":827.219,"endTime":829.014,"body":"strategies and to drive strategies."},{"startTime":829.254,"endTime":830.774,"body":"All that is doing it through influence."},{"startTime":830.774,"endTime":834.354,"body":"Like, you have no control over sales,"},{"startTime":830.774,"endTime":834.354,"body":"you have no control over marketing,"},{"startTime":834.444,"endTime":836.814,"body":"you have no control over your"},{"startTime":834.444,"endTime":836.814,"body":"stakeholders and your customers, right?"},{"startTime":836.814,"endTime":836.904,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":837.144,"endTime":837.684,"body":"That's all influence."},{"startTime":837.684,"endTime":841.914,"body":"So these are all transferable skills that"},{"startTime":837.684,"endTime":841.914,"body":"transfer into the position of product."},{"startTime":842.064,"endTime":846.134,"body":"That quite honestly, I'm trying to think"},{"startTime":842.064,"endTime":846.134,"body":"of all the literature of product that I'm,"},{"startTime":846.194,"endTime":848.584,"body":"I'm like inspired and stuff like that."},{"startTime":848.764,"endTime":848.984,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":849.124,"endTime":852.624,"body":"Like, I, I don't think they go into"},{"startTime":849.124,"endTime":852.624,"body":"all of these leadership skills that"},{"startTime":852.624,"endTime":855.934,"body":"you have acquired I guess maybe in"},{"startTime":852.624,"endTime":855.934,"body":"terms of stakeholder management,"},{"startTime":855.979,"endTime":857.509,"body":"what, what are they leading to?"},{"startTime":857.589,"endTime":857.939,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":858.169,"endTime":858.779,"body":"You know, where are they going?"},{"startTime":858.999,"endTime":860.12,"body":"Um, if they're going to."},{"startTime":860.884,"endTime":861.574,"body":"Leadership."},{"startTime":861.579,"endTime":861.894,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":862.204,"endTime":865.354,"body":"You know, which you normally get from"},{"startTime":862.204,"endTime":865.354,"body":"like, business leader, like executives and"},{"startTime":865.354,"endTime":868.654,"body":"stuff like that, or you know, directors"},{"startTime":865.354,"endTime":868.654,"body":"of departments in larger organizations."},{"startTime":868.934,"endTime":869.714,"body":"It makes a lot of sense."},{"startTime":869.714,"endTime":873.854,"body":"You would move over to product management"},{"startTime":869.714,"endTime":873.854,"body":"so that you can, all these skills that"},{"startTime":873.859,"endTime":876.734,"body":"you've spent time developing, now you"},{"startTime":873.859,"endTime":876.734,"body":"can use 'em full-time in your job."},{"startTime":877.044,"endTime":879.094,"body":"to a much higher effect."},{"startTime":879.094,"endTime":880.324,"body":"Much more effective I have."},{"startTime":880.564,"endTime":884.194,"body":"And you're already doing negotiation in"},{"startTime":880.564,"endTime":884.194,"body":"your, you don't, you just don't realize"},{"startTime":884.194,"endTime":886.084,"body":"it because it's, it's more subtle."},{"startTime":886.354,"endTime":888.814,"body":"You're negotiating every"},{"startTime":886.354,"endTime":888.814,"body":"single day with your teammates,"},{"startTime":888.874,"endTime":890.434,"body":"right, to try this or try that."},{"startTime":890.434,"endTime":891.184,"body":"Or What about this?"},{"startTime":891.184,"endTime":891.844,"body":"Or what about that?"},{"startTime":891.844,"endTime":892.894,"body":"Or, why didn't that work?"},{"startTime":893.164,"endTime":893.624,"body":"Did you try this?"},{"startTime":893.954,"endTime":894.894,"body":"You're already doing that."},{"startTime":895.274,"endTime":896.324,"body":"It's the same skill."},{"startTime":896.324,"endTime":899.234,"body":"You're just using it for a"},{"startTime":896.324,"endTime":899.234,"body":"completely different reason."},{"startTime":899.744,"endTime":900.554,"body":"That's a good point."},{"startTime":900.554,"endTime":902.624,"body":"And like you said, it"},{"startTime":900.554,"endTime":902.624,"body":"is more subtle, right?"},{"startTime":902.624,"endTime":904.724,"body":"Because as a scrum master, if"},{"startTime":902.624,"endTime":904.724,"body":"you're working with teams and"},{"startTime":904.724,"endTime":907.604,"body":"you want them to change, you kind"},{"startTime":904.724,"endTime":907.604,"body":"of pitch it as an experiment."},{"startTime":907.754,"endTime":909.734,"body":"You know, Hey, it's just an experiment."},{"startTime":909.734,"endTime":911.475,"body":"If it doesn't work out, we"},{"startTime":909.734,"endTime":911.475,"body":"can go back to old ways."},{"startTime":911.854,"endTime":917.204,"body":"But for you both as product people"},{"startTime":911.854,"endTime":917.204,"body":"having to negotiate with product"},{"startTime":917.204,"endTime":920.684,"body":"who's, or with business rather,"},{"startTime":917.204,"endTime":920.684,"body":"who's incredibly demanding, right?"},{"startTime":920.85,"endTime":922.56,"body":"And sometimes unrealistic."},{"startTime":922.56,"endTime":925.74,"body":"And so you have to navigate"},{"startTime":922.56,"endTime":925.74,"body":"that conflict and be honest with"},{"startTime":925.74,"endTime":926.82,"body":"them in these conversations."},{"startTime":926.82,"endTime":926.91,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":927.33,"endTime":930.24,"body":"Humans are notoriously"},{"startTime":927.33,"endTime":930.24,"body":"uncomfortable with conflict."},{"startTime":930.33,"endTime":930.66,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":930.66,"endTime":930.96,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":931.02,"endTime":934.02,"body":"And if, like you both mentioned,"},{"startTime":931.02,"endTime":934.02,"body":"they don't train for conflict"},{"startTime":934.02,"endTime":938.08,"body":"resolution or train you how to"},{"startTime":934.02,"endTime":938.08,"body":"give you negotiation skills."},{"startTime":938.18,"endTime":938.6,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":938.85,"endTime":942.54,"body":"So this would be really stressful"},{"startTime":938.85,"endTime":942.54,"body":"for someone who's moving into product"},{"startTime":942.54,"endTime":944.25,"body":"experiencing this for the first time."},{"startTime":944.55,"endTime":948.96,"body":"I I would say it's even more advantageous"},{"startTime":944.55,"endTime":948.96,"body":"to have these skills because there are"},{"startTime":949.08,"endTime":955.02,"body":"pieces of product management that even,"},{"startTime":949.08,"endTime":955.02,"body":"even product managers don't get exposed."},{"startTime":955.075,"endTime":960.985,"body":"I feel okay going out on a limb to say"},{"startTime":955.075,"endTime":960.985,"body":"like 75%, like a major, an overwhelming"},{"startTime":960.99,"endTime":964.865,"body":"majority of product managers don't"},{"startTime":960.99,"endTime":964.865,"body":"deal with Well, I almost wanna back"},{"startTime":964.865,"endTime":968.435,"body":"all the way up to, to don't deal with"},{"startTime":964.865,"endTime":968.435,"body":"like, defining the strategy themselves."},{"startTime":968.435,"endTime":971.315,"body":"Like they're not in the room when"},{"startTime":968.435,"endTime":971.315,"body":"strategies, defined strategies."},{"startTime":971.315,"endTime":971.555,"body":"It's true."},{"startTime":971.585,"endTime":972.515,"body":"Directed to them."},{"startTime":972.935,"endTime":975.69,"body":"But,  even if I, even if I'm like"},{"startTime":972.935,"endTime":975.69,"body":"willing to be like, well, I'm"},{"startTime":975.69,"endTime":977.4,"body":"not sure about that a percentage."},{"startTime":977.64,"endTime":983.03,"body":"I, I will firmly stand behind"},{"startTime":977.64,"endTime":983.03,"body":"pricing go to market strategies your"},{"startTime":983.03,"endTime":987.2,"body":"marketing strategy, when sales is in"},{"startTime":983.03,"endTime":987.2,"body":"front of customers, like they have"},{"startTime":987.23,"endTime":991.211,"body":"a rep from product with them, like"},{"startTime":987.23,"endTime":991.211,"body":"75% of product managers that are,"},{"startTime":991.27,"endTime":993.82,"body":"are out there not listen to this"},{"startTime":991.27,"endTime":993.82,"body":"podcast, are totally in the room."},{"startTime":993.97,"endTime":998.43,"body":"But for the other 75% for the other"},{"startTime":993.97,"endTime":998.43,"body":"99% of people they have to fight"},{"startTime":998.43,"endTime":999.42,"body":"to be involved in these things."},{"startTime":999.42,"endTime":1000.44,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1000.495,"endTime":1005.195,"body":"I think of the scrum master has to"},{"startTime":1000.495,"endTime":1005.195,"body":"convince executives of like, well, maybe"},{"startTime":1005.195,"endTime":1009.625,"body":"if we split this team, then maybe although"},{"startTime":1005.195,"endTime":1009.625,"body":"like you're lobbying to be like, well,"},{"startTime":1009.625,"endTime":1015.625,"body":"maybe we could try to experiment when"},{"startTime":1009.625,"endTime":1015.625,"body":"you know that splitting a team of 15 into"},{"startTime":1015.625,"endTime":1019.525,"body":"two teams of eight and seven is gonna"},{"startTime":1015.625,"endTime":1019.525,"body":"basically double their productivity."},{"startTime":1019.525,"endTime":1019.615,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1019.675,"endTime":1021.145,"body":"Like snap of a finger."},{"startTime":1021.265,"endTime":1025.585,"body":"And, and, and probably you could"},{"startTime":1021.265,"endTime":1025.585,"body":"probably get like 400% gain on"},{"startTime":1025.585,"endTime":1029.595,"body":"speed of delivery if you actually"},{"startTime":1025.585,"endTime":1029.595,"body":"cut them into three teams or more."},{"startTime":1030.095,"endTime":1033.285,"body":"And, and you just know that you,"},{"startTime":1030.095,"endTime":1033.285,"body":"but, , again, you can't just be"},{"startTime":1033.29,"endTime":1034.215,"body":"like, Hey, we should do this."},{"startTime":1034.965,"endTime":1035.185,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1035.185,"endTime":1035.385,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1035.385,"endTime":1037.155,"body":"Because they'll be like,"},{"startTime":1035.385,"endTime":1037.155,"body":"well that's ridiculous."},{"startTime":1037.275,"endTime":1038.115,"body":"Who do you think you are?"},{"startTime":1038.115,"endTime":1038.925,"body":"Get outta my office."},{"startTime":1038.93,"endTime":1039.425,"body":"How you fine."},{"startTime":1039.425,"endTime":1039.825,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":1040.095,"endTime":1040.385,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1040.385,"endTime":1042.465,"body":"Whereas a product manager, on"},{"startTime":1040.385,"endTime":1042.465,"body":"the other hand, when you're like"},{"startTime":1043.245,"endTime":1046.275,"body":"I can't get anything out because"},{"startTime":1043.245,"endTime":1046.275,"body":"this team is too big and there's"},{"startTime":1046.275,"endTime":1048.555,"body":"too many lines of communication"},{"startTime":1046.275,"endTime":1048.555,"body":"and we need to split them up."},{"startTime":1049.395,"endTime":1050.845,"body":"Oh, right away, sir."},{"startTime":1051.175,"endTime":1052.015,"body":"I'll get it right on that."},{"startTime":1052.225,"endTime":1052.465,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":1052.47,"endTime":1055.585,"body":"Because you've said the,"},{"startTime":1052.47,"endTime":1055.585,"body":"I can't get anything out."},{"startTime":1055.645,"endTime":1055.765,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1056.165,"endTime":1057.395,"body":"Because it stops with you."},{"startTime":1057.425,"endTime":1058.685,"body":"The buck stops with you."},{"startTime":1058.715,"endTime":1062.045,"body":"You're the one that is responsible"},{"startTime":1058.715,"endTime":1062.045,"body":"for getting this stuff shipped."},{"startTime":1062.165,"endTime":1066.665,"body":"And when you say, I can't do my job of"},{"startTime":1062.165,"endTime":1066.665,"body":"getting this out, they listen because"},{"startTime":1066.665,"endTime":1071.705,"body":"it's product, because it's the thing that"},{"startTime":1066.665,"endTime":1071.705,"body":"makes them the money and they do listen."},{"startTime":1071.705,"endTime":1078.385,"body":"And that's why it's such, I feel it's a"},{"startTime":1071.705,"endTime":1078.385,"body":"more rewarding job, but risk and reward."},{"startTime":1078.805,"endTime":1078.985,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1079.495,"endTime":1081.925,"body":"You ha it come, it's yang and yang mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1082.585,"endTime":1084.205,"body":"For that reward."},{"startTime":1084.205,"endTime":1088.195,"body":"And I don't know about you, but I"},{"startTime":1084.205,"endTime":1088.195,"body":"don't have it many, many days that"},{"startTime":1088.195,"endTime":1090.055,"body":"I feel like I have even a one win."},{"startTime":1090.06,"endTime":1090.295,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1090.565,"endTime":1096.335,"body":"So it's, it's a far and few between with"},{"startTime":1090.565,"endTime":1096.335,"body":"the wins, but when you do get them, it's"},{"startTime":1096.335,"endTime":1098.225,"body":"worth all of the work that you put in."},{"startTime":1098.325,"endTime":1102.78,"body":"I know that I lost a lot of battles as"},{"startTime":1098.325,"endTime":1102.78,"body":"a scrum master that I should have won"},{"startTime":1103.44,"endTime":1107.59,"body":"because I have like I have data on my, I"},{"startTime":1103.44,"endTime":1107.59,"body":"have results and data on my side, right?"},{"startTime":1107.59,"endTime":1110.32,"body":"But again, like the, because the"},{"startTime":1107.59,"endTime":1110.32,"body":"business is not there, there are no"},{"startTime":1110.325,"endTime":1115.755,"body":"metrics to measure a scrum master"},{"startTime":1110.325,"endTime":1115.755,"body":"being successful in org design."},{"startTime":1115.76,"endTime":1117.105,"body":"There's no org design metrics."},{"startTime":1117.255,"endTime":1120.175,"body":"Again, you would think HR would"},{"startTime":1117.255,"endTime":1120.175,"body":"be invested in org design and,"},{"startTime":1120.655,"endTime":1121.915,"body":"org efficiency or whatever."},{"startTime":1121.915,"endTime":1125.155,"body":"Empowerment, I don't know what"},{"startTime":1121.915,"endTime":1125.155,"body":"metrics, but as a product manager,"},{"startTime":1125.305,"endTime":1130.495,"body":"you can lobby for metrics and results"},{"startTime":1125.305,"endTime":1130.495,"body":"and be data oriented or, or data"},{"startTime":1130.5,"endTime":1131.845,"body":"driven in your decision making."},{"startTime":1131.965,"endTime":1134.97,"body":"And you could say, Hey these last"},{"startTime":1131.965,"endTime":1134.97,"body":"few sprints, I had this many people,"},{"startTime":1134.97,"endTime":1137.79,"body":"whatever, I broke two team members,"},{"startTime":1134.97,"endTime":1137.79,"body":"three team members off to focus on this"},{"startTime":1137.79,"endTime":1139.71,"body":"goal and this is the result of that."},{"startTime":1139.98,"endTime":1143.19,"body":"And the business will follow you because"},{"startTime":1139.98,"endTime":1143.19,"body":"there are so many other things that"},{"startTime":1143.28,"endTime":1147.57,"body":"the product manager is bringing to the"},{"startTime":1143.28,"endTime":1147.57,"body":"table that is either result oriented"},{"startTime":1147.78,"endTime":1154.56,"body":"or data oriented it's much easier"},{"startTime":1147.78,"endTime":1154.56,"body":"to make metric-driven, data-driven"},{"startTime":1154.56,"endTime":1156.21,"body":"decisions as a product manager."},{"startTime":1156.21,"endTime":1156.211,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1156.87,"endTime":1161.43,"body":"Whereas you might not even get into the"},{"startTime":1156.87,"endTime":1161.43,"body":"conversation as a scrum master, huh?"},{"startTime":1161.64,"endTime":1166.02,"body":"Like, you, you should be able to be"},{"startTime":1161.64,"endTime":1166.02,"body":"perceived as the expert because you"},{"startTime":1166.02,"endTime":1167.52,"body":"are bringing the before and after."},{"startTime":1167.88,"endTime":1171.9,"body":"And even what Trisha just said is"},{"startTime":1167.88,"endTime":1171.9,"body":"like, I, I lose arguments all the time."},{"startTime":1172.38,"endTime":1178.55,"body":"In fact, in fact, when I'm writing"},{"startTime":1172.38,"endTime":1178.55,"body":"a investigation type of task for my"},{"startTime":1178.555,"endTime":1183.08,"body":"team, normally I word the investigation"},{"startTime":1178.555,"endTime":1183.08,"body":"task the opposite of whatever my"},{"startTime":1183.08,"endTime":1184.58,"body":"opinion is and how it's gonna turn out."},{"startTime":1184.58,"endTime":1191.55,"body":"So if I'm like, Hey, we're gonna go we're"},{"startTime":1184.58,"endTime":1191.55,"body":"gonna go try to prove that if we introduce"},{"startTime":1191.555,"endTime":1193.69,"body":"functionality A nobody's gonna use it."},{"startTime":1194.23,"endTime":1195.67,"body":"And that's the way I will word the story."},{"startTime":1195.67,"endTime":1199.63,"body":"If I expect, if we introduce it"},{"startTime":1195.67,"endTime":1199.63,"body":"functionality a, like everyone's gonna"},{"startTime":1199.63,"endTime":1200.74,"body":"adopt it and everyone's gonna love it."},{"startTime":1200.74,"endTime":1201.46,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1201.55,"endTime":1204.76,"body":"And then I will word the story"},{"startTime":1201.55,"endTime":1204.76,"body":"in the opposite of what I believe"},{"startTime":1204.76,"endTime":1207.04,"body":"because I, I'm worried about"},{"startTime":1204.76,"endTime":1207.04,"body":"coloring it, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1207.43,"endTime":1210.01,"body":"The, the, the scrum master thing is"},{"startTime":1207.43,"endTime":1210.01,"body":"like, if you wanna go out and you want"},{"startTime":1210.01,"endTime":1213.667,"body":"to try something or Hey, let's, let's"},{"startTime":1210.01,"endTime":1213.667,"body":"try adjusting our definition of done."},{"startTime":1213.667,"endTime":1217.137,"body":"Hey, let's try, releasing ourselves"},{"startTime":1213.667,"endTime":1217.137,"body":"instead of handing off over the"},{"startTime":1217.137,"endTime":1220.427,"body":"wall or whatever now you've gotta"},{"startTime":1217.137,"endTime":1220.427,"body":"you gotta get managers together."},{"startTime":1220.432,"endTime":1223.187,"body":"You gotta get your boss, you"},{"startTime":1220.432,"endTime":1223.187,"body":"gotta write your congressman."},{"startTime":1223.187,"endTime":1224.537,"body":"I don't know, whatever"},{"startTime":1223.187,"endTime":1224.537,"body":"other things you gotta do."},{"startTime":1224.737,"endTime":1225.217,"body":"I don't know what"},{"startTime":1225.587,"endTime":1229.987,"body":"I agree with you Brian, I, I do think"},{"startTime":1225.587,"endTime":1229.987,"body":"that you just, you, you seem to have"},{"startTime":1229.987,"endTime":1233.792,"body":"more pull because you're already in"},{"startTime":1229.987,"endTime":1233.792,"body":"a position to make those decisions."},{"startTime":1234.242,"endTime":1236.412,"body":"And again, it comes down"},{"startTime":1234.242,"endTime":1236.412,"body":"to shipping product."},{"startTime":1236.852,"endTime":1236.942,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1237.332,"endTime":1239.692,"body":"If you can tell the business,"},{"startTime":1237.332,"endTime":1239.692,"body":"you can ship product faster."},{"startTime":1239.952,"endTime":1241.082,"body":"They're all ears."},{"startTime":1241.153,"endTime":1245.323,"body":"That being said, considering your"},{"startTime":1241.153,"endTime":1245.323,"body":"position and how you are taking full"},{"startTime":1245.323,"endTime":1250.003,"body":"ownership of the product right when"},{"startTime":1245.323,"endTime":1250.003,"body":"things go wrong, for instance, or"},{"startTime":1250.003,"endTime":1252.943,"body":"maybe it's a late they night when you"},{"startTime":1250.003,"endTime":1252.943,"body":"know there was a release or something."},{"startTime":1252.943,"endTime":1253.033,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1253.363,"endTime":1254.773,"body":"They're gonna call you."},{"startTime":1254.778,"endTime":1254.863,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1255.563,"endTime":1256.353,"body":"So you hope."},{"startTime":1257.113,"endTime":1257.743,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1257.743,"endTime":1258.523,"body":"You would hope, right?"},{"startTime":1258.523,"endTime":1259.063,"body":"It's your product."},{"startTime":1259.063,"endTime":1262.573,"body":"So I would argue that you have"},{"startTime":1259.063,"endTime":1262.573,"body":"better work life balance as a scrum"},{"startTime":1262.573,"endTime":1265.303,"body":"master than you would as a product"},{"startTime":1262.573,"endTime":1265.303,"body":"person, because essentially you're"},{"startTime":1265.303,"endTime":1269.104,"body":"on call in moments like that, not"},{"startTime":1265.303,"endTime":1269.104,"body":"if you have a good quality product."},{"startTime":1269.504,"endTime":1270.884,"body":"I don't get called in"},{"startTime":1269.504,"endTime":1270.884,"body":"the middle of the night."},{"startTime":1271.364,"endTime":1272.564,"body":"Do you get called in"},{"startTime":1271.364,"endTime":1272.564,"body":"the middle of the night?"},{"startTime":1272.614,"endTime":1275.314,"body":"I don't do releases in"},{"startTime":1272.614,"endTime":1275.314,"body":"the middle of the night."},{"startTime":1275.884,"endTime":1277.444,"body":"Because I would lobby for the business."},{"startTime":1277.444,"endTime":1281.282,"body":"Like I have all my people, I have all my"},{"startTime":1277.444,"endTime":1281.282,"body":"people in the middle of production day."},{"startTime":1281.342,"endTime":1283.832,"body":"So why, why would I not release"},{"startTime":1281.342,"endTime":1283.832,"body":"in the middle of production day?"},{"startTime":1284.462,"endTime":1289.362,"body":"Because if your confidence is, super low"},{"startTime":1284.462,"endTime":1289.362,"body":"that we can do it in the middle of the per"},{"startTime":1289.542,"endTime":1294.012,"body":"production day and not impact servers or"},{"startTime":1289.542,"endTime":1294.012,"body":"whatever, then we need to resolve that."},{"startTime":1294.022,"endTime":1297.622,"body":"If you can't go to production like"},{"startTime":1294.022,"endTime":1297.622,"body":"immediately without any worry about"},{"startTime":1297.622,"endTime":1300.202,"body":"your systems or whatever, you have"},{"startTime":1297.622,"endTime":1300.202,"body":"to have, you have to have a, a"},{"startTime":1300.202,"endTime":1303.587,"body":"little sit down and talk about,"},{"startTime":1300.202,"endTime":1303.587,"body":"your release and deployment systems."},{"startTime":1303.637,"endTime":1307.237,"body":"I can't tell you how many times in"},{"startTime":1303.637,"endTime":1307.237,"body":"a week I see people talking about"},{"startTime":1307.237,"endTime":1312.657,"body":"this on LinkedIn, and, and I, I'm so"},{"startTime":1307.237,"endTime":1312.657,"body":"thankful I don't have to deal with my"},{"startTime":1312.657,"endTime":1315.777,"body":"team, when they, whenever they finish a"},{"startTime":1312.657,"endTime":1315.777,"body":"story and an individual story, it goes"},{"startTime":1315.777,"endTime":1317.667,"body":"straight to production Oh, by itself."},{"startTime":1318.447,"endTime":1319.467,"body":"Straight into production."},{"startTime":1319.467,"endTime":1323.197,"body":"And I can tell the stakeholder"},{"startTime":1319.467,"endTime":1323.197,"body":"or whoever we're like in my Jira,"},{"startTime":1323.797,"endTime":1324.787,"body":"I haven't done that in a while."},{"startTime":1325.067,"endTime":1328.407,"body":"I have a field, a dropdown for"},{"startTime":1325.067,"endTime":1328.407,"body":"the user persona that mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1328.487,"endTime":1329.297,"body":"The story is for mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1329.537,"endTime":1329.538,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1329.543,"endTime":1329.567,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1329.787,"endTime":1333.837,"body":"So as soon as a story closes,"},{"startTime":1329.787,"endTime":1333.837,"body":"I I have a, the user persona."},{"startTime":1333.842,"endTime":1336.237,"body":"I know who that persona is, like by name."},{"startTime":1336.242,"endTime":1336.297,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1336.297,"endTime":1337.167,"body":"I know who to contact."},{"startTime":1337.467,"endTime":1339.457,"body":"So I'll contact them and say, Hey,"},{"startTime":1337.467,"endTime":1339.457,"body":"your feature went to production"},{"startTime":1339.457,"endTime":1342.117,"body":"just now, or today, or whatever,"},{"startTime":1339.457,"endTime":1342.117,"body":"whatever yesterday, whatever it is."},{"startTime":1342.582,"endTime":1346.722,"body":"And I'll ask them to go check it out, or,"},{"startTime":1342.582,"endTime":1346.722,"body":"or if it's something big, and then I'll"},{"startTime":1346.722,"endTime":1349.242,"body":"schedule something with them and I'll"},{"startTime":1346.722,"endTime":1349.242,"body":"say, Hey, you're teaching production."},{"startTime":1349.242,"endTime":1353.752,"body":"Let me schedule something with you so"},{"startTime":1349.242,"endTime":1353.752,"body":"I, I, I, I just, I don't deal with this."},{"startTime":1354.442,"endTime":1357.622,"body":"And if I had to deal with it, I"},{"startTime":1354.442,"endTime":1357.622,"body":"would be pushing my engineering"},{"startTime":1357.622,"endTime":1360.662,"body":"leadership, pushings not a great word"},{"startTime":1357.622,"endTime":1360.662,"body":"I, I'd be pushing my engineering,"},{"startTime":1360.662,"endTime":1361.382,"body":"I'm gonna say it again though."},{"startTime":1361.652,"endTime":1364.202,"body":"I'll be pushing my engineering"},{"startTime":1361.652,"endTime":1364.202,"body":"leadership to, to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":1364.952,"endTime":1366.302,"body":"other companies have solved this."},{"startTime":1366.772,"endTime":1370.082,"body":"You, you really should invest"},{"startTime":1366.772,"endTime":1370.082,"body":"in solving this for us."},{"startTime":1370.142,"endTime":1370.232,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1370.237,"endTime":1371.402,"body":"Because I can't go through that."},{"startTime":1371.407,"endTime":1372.842,"body":"I can't go through pajama parties."},{"startTime":1373.052,"endTime":1374.762,"body":"I can't go through middle"},{"startTime":1373.052,"endTime":1374.762,"body":"of night deployments."},{"startTime":1374.762,"endTime":1376.382,"body":"I can't, I can't put"},{"startTime":1374.762,"endTime":1376.382,"body":"that stress on my team."},{"startTime":1376.382,"endTime":1376.952,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":1377.342,"endTime":1377.632,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1377.652,"endTime":1381.072,"body":"And you can, you can figure that"},{"startTime":1377.652,"endTime":1381.072,"body":"out when you're interviewing."},{"startTime":1381.597,"endTime":1385.257,"body":"You can ask what their, what, how their"},{"startTime":1381.597,"endTime":1385.257,"body":"release plan goes, what their standard"},{"startTime":1385.257,"endTime":1386.937,"body":"procedures are, and how that works."},{"startTime":1386.937,"endTime":1390.357,"body":"And if they are like, well, we"},{"startTime":1386.937,"endTime":1390.357,"body":"do it at 11 o'clock at night,"},{"startTime":1390.357,"endTime":1391.707,"body":"start asking some questions."},{"startTime":1391.737,"endTime":1392.127,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1392.157,"endTime":1392.577,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":1393.207,"endTime":1396.767,"body":"Because I've, I've seen it happen where"},{"startTime":1393.207,"endTime":1396.767,"body":"the product person was on the call"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1396.767,"endTime":1401.327,"body":"00 PM"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1396.767,"endTime":1401.327,"body":"up until 1:00 AM because things went"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1401.327,"endTime":1404.537,"body":"wrong or whatever, and then they wanted"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1401.327,"endTime":1404.537,"body":"to do the validation on the call."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1404.627,"endTime":1404.717,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1404.962,"endTime":1407.417,"body":"They don't wanna wait till the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1404.962,"endTime":1407.417,"body":"next working day to do that."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1407.467,"endTime":1411.067,"body":"I think you would have more influence over"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1407.467,"endTime":1411.067,"body":"something like that as a product manager."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1411.067,"endTime":1411.157,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1411.337,"endTime":1414.187,"body":"As a product manager, you can"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1411.337,"endTime":1414.187,"body":"kind of control the percentage of"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1414.287,"endTime":1417.557,"body":"technical enabler infrastructure"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1414.287,"endTime":1417.557,"body":"work that rolls into the backlog."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1417.737,"endTime":1420.507,"body":"So you can, you can make a"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1417.737,"endTime":1420.507,"body":"concerted effort and you can make"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1420.857,"endTime":1424.537,"body":"a pitch to leadership with your"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1420.857,"endTime":1424.537,"body":"engineering leadership behind you"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1424.717,"endTime":1426.337,"body":"to say, we should really fix this."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1426.517,"endTime":1426.637,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1426.697,"endTime":1427.627,"body":"We really have to do it."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1427.627,"endTime":1427.927,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1428.077,"endTime":1431.617,"body":"Whereas as a scrum master, you could see"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1428.077,"endTime":1431.617,"body":"this, you could see the same problems."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1431.677,"endTime":1436.937,"body":"I've, I, I have to go back to my years of"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1431.677,"endTime":1436.937,"body":"working on development teams as a member"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1436.937,"endTime":1439.817,"body":"of the development, like not a scrum"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1436.937,"endTime":1439.817,"body":"master and what product owner or whatever."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1440.217,"endTime":1443.337,"body":"And all the times that we've pointed out"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1440.217,"endTime":1443.337,"body":"like, Hey, we really should fix this."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1443.337,"endTime":1444.387,"body":"Hey, we really should do whatever."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1444.387,"endTime":1449.037,"body":"And the product owner, like having"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1444.387,"endTime":1449.037,"body":"absolutely no idea what we were talking"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1449.037,"endTime":1450.297,"body":"about, cause they had no idea about tech."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1450.477,"endTime":1452.187,"body":"They came purely from the business."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1452.247,"endTime":1454.617,"body":"They had no exposure to technology at all."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1454.617,"endTime":1456.567,"body":"And they're like, I don't"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1454.617,"endTime":1456.567,"body":"understand why that's important."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1456.567,"endTime":1458.247,"body":"I can't like, just get my features out."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1458.727,"endTime":1462.427,"body":"You know, like I feel as a scrum"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1458.727,"endTime":1462.427,"body":"master, you have a certain exposure."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1462.427,"endTime":1465.697,"body":"Maybe you're not specifically technical,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1462.427,"endTime":1465.697,"body":"and this is like a whole separate"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1465.697,"endTime":1470.717,"body":"podcast, right  you have enough exposure"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1465.697,"endTime":1470.717,"body":"to what a development team does,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1471.017,"endTime":1475.067,"body":"where if you flipped over to being"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1471.017,"endTime":1475.067,"body":"the product owner role on the team"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1475.072,"endTime":1478.737,"body":"or a product manager because you have"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1475.072,"endTime":1478.737,"body":"exposure to this stuff, I think you"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1478.737,"endTime":1482.337,"body":"would be a little better lobbying Yes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1482.342,"endTime":1486.357,"body":"To, to, to kind of weave the concerns"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1482.342,"endTime":1486.357,"body":"of everyone into the product backlog."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1486.587,"endTime":1486.807,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1487.677,"endTime":1488.997,"body":"Which would be your responsibility."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1489.317,"endTime":1489.607,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1489.607,"endTime":1489.927,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1490.007,"endTime":1490.247,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1490.327,"endTime":1491.367,"body":"That's, that's exactly right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1491.767,"endTime":1492.847,"body":"No, I agree with you."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1493.027,"endTime":1498.902,"body":"And I also think that you, the easiest"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1493.027,"endTime":1498.902,"body":"path of least resistance for you would"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1498.902,"endTime":1501.122,"body":"be getting into the product owner role?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1501.149,"endTime":1504.559,"body":"I see the product owner role and"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1501.149,"endTime":1504.559,"body":"the product manager role split."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1504.559,"endTime":1507.229,"body":"I think it should be one person, but"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1504.559,"endTime":1507.229,"body":"I see it split right down the middle."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1507.229,"endTime":1511.639,"body":"Product owner is the, is the development"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1507.229,"endTime":1511.639,"body":"side and the product manager is, is more"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1511.644,"endTime":1515.959,"body":"of the marketing, the market research,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1511.644,"endTime":1515.959,"body":"the plan, the strategy, this is what,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1516.349,"endTime":1519.739,"body":"what we're gonna do and this is how"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1516.349,"endTime":1519.739,"body":"we're gonna do it, or one of those two."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1519.744,"endTime":1519.949,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1520.489,"endTime":1524.119,"body":"And being as the scrum master,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1520.489,"endTime":1524.119,"body":"you're closest to the development."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1524.119,"endTime":1526.759,"body":"So you learn and hone those"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1524.119,"endTime":1526.759,"body":"skills as a product owner."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1526.759,"endTime":1530.369,"body":"The, the backlog management the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1526.759,"endTime":1530.369,"body":"releases, the team, how it's working,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1530.759,"endTime":1532.379,"body":"their velocity, all of that stuff."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1532.769,"endTime":1537.539,"body":"And then as you start to gain, you"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1532.769,"endTime":1537.539,"body":"can do that in your sleep, like Brian"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1537.539,"endTime":1540.779,"body":"and I can for year cuz it's, it's"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1537.539,"endTime":1540.779,"body":"repetitive, it's the same stuff."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1540.839,"endTime":1542.219,"body":"Different team, but same stuff."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1542.279,"endTime":1546.029,"body":"Then you start branching out and learning"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1542.279,"endTime":1546.029,"body":"about strategy and the vision, how to"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1546.029,"endTime":1549.809,"body":"set the vision, how to talk to the ceo,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1546.029,"endTime":1549.809,"body":"how to get good customer interviews."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1550.019,"endTime":1552.359,"body":"What metrics those are the, the, the."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1552.839,"endTime":1558.299,"body":"The, I think the, the, the meat of product"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1552.839,"endTime":1558.299,"body":"management is that, that side of it."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1558.499,"endTime":1561.859,"body":"Since you're already on the front"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1558.499,"endTime":1561.859,"body":"lines with the product owner, you have"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1561.859,"endTime":1563.779,"body":"a way in knowing that piece of it."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1563.779,"endTime":1567.769,"body":"And that's how I would, that's"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1563.779,"endTime":1567.769,"body":"how I would get bridge my way in."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1568.279,"endTime":1568.489,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1568.889,"endTime":1569.899,"body":"This is good guys."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1569.949,"endTime":1571.269,"body":"Topic number two."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1571.539,"endTime":1575.739,"body":"I've heard from other Scrum masters"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1571.539,"endTime":1575.739,"body":"that they would never go into product"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1575.739,"endTime":1579.189,"body":"because as scrum masters, we make"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1575.739,"endTime":1579.189,"body":"more money than product people."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1579.789,"endTime":1580.779,"body":"Do you think that's true?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1581.179,"endTime":1582.219,"body":"I, I don't believe that at all."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1582.619,"endTime":1584.409,"body":"I don't believe that at all either."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1584.659,"endTime":1586.909,"body":"I wouldn't trust a company that paid."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1587.309,"endTime":1592.949,"body":"A scrum master who manages a process over"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1587.309,"endTime":1592.949,"body":"a product manager that managed an actual"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1592.949,"endTime":1595.199,"body":"product, I would not trust a company."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1595.259,"endTime":1595.769,"body":"Why is that?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1596.249,"endTime":1599.099,"body":"Because the getting, because"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1596.249,"endTime":1599.099,"body":"you can get a product out the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1599.099,"endTime":1600.389,"body":"door without a scrum master."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1600.509,"endTime":1601.779,"body":"You do not need to have process."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1602.369,"endTime":1602.989,"body":"It may fail."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1603.569,"endTime":1603.629,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1603.869,"endTime":1604.909,"body":"But you can get it out the door."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1605.529,"endTime":1610.409,"body":"You don't need process startups that"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1605.529,"endTime":1610.409,"body":"are a series A or, or bootstrapping,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1610.409,"endTime":1612.299,"body":"they're not hiring ScrumMasters yet."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1612.299,"endTime":1613.679,"body":"They're getting product out the door."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1613.679,"endTime":1613.739,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1614.219,"endTime":1616.229,"body":"Product manager is a necessity."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1616.559,"endTime":1619.049,"body":"A CEO can only do it for so long."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1619.259,"endTime":1621.449,"body":"Product management is a necessity."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1621.599,"endTime":1623.849,"body":"No, a ScrumMaster is not a necessity."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1623.849,"endTime":1625.049,"body":"It's a nice to have."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1625.079,"endTime":1625.499,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1625.649,"endTime":1629.069,"body":"And that's why product people, they're"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1625.649,"endTime":1629.069,"body":"the ones that are making the decisions."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1629.099,"endTime":1631.409,"body":"They're the ones that are"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1629.099,"endTime":1631.409,"body":"talking to the customers."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1631.619,"endTime":1636.149,"body":"They're the ones making, making major"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1631.619,"endTime":1636.149,"body":"decisions on when a product should go"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1636.149,"endTime":1641.239,"body":"out, when it should decline, and either"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1636.149,"endTime":1641.239,"body":"be revamped or, or be killed off."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1641.689,"endTime":1643.489,"body":"ScrumMasters aren't"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1641.689,"endTime":1643.489,"body":"making those decisions."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1643.489,"endTime":1646.969,"body":"Mm, and if a company is paying a"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1643.489,"endTime":1646.969,"body":"Scrum master more than a product"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1646.969,"endTime":1650.749,"body":"person to, to, to manage process,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1646.969,"endTime":1650.749,"body":"I, I believe that is not the kind"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1650.749,"endTime":1651.949,"body":"of company I would wanna work for."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1652.289,"endTime":1652.509,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1653.389,"endTime":1654.079,"body":"What do you think?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1654.669,"endTime":1659.999,"body":"The, the issue with the scrum"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1654.669,"endTime":1659.999,"body":"master position is it's so, it,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1660.004,"endTime":1662.619,"body":"it, it's, it varies so much."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1662.979,"endTime":1664.679,"body":"Of what they're looking for."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1665.159,"endTime":1669.119,"body":"Like, are, are we talking about like a,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1665.159,"endTime":1669.119,"body":"a, a scaled scrum master, like a, like"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1669.119,"endTime":1671.219,"body":"a safe scale, like a release train?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1671.224,"endTime":1671.249,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1671.329,"endTime":1674.819,"body":"Like person who's a scrum master"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1671.329,"endTime":1674.819,"body":"but has like eight teams, or,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1674.839,"endTime":1675.499,"body":"like are we talking about?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1675.499,"endTime":1675.769,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1676.129,"endTime":1679.849,"body":"A, a project manager who's actually"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1676.129,"endTime":1679.849,"body":"named Scrum master because the company"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1680.239,"endTime":1684.899,"body":"told their board their, their agile now"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1680.239,"endTime":1684.899,"body":"or whatever, like versus true versus"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1684.899,"endTime":1687.839,"body":"product manager who are pretty standard."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1688.109,"endTime":1692.489,"body":"The only thing I would caution about"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1688.109,"endTime":1692.489,"body":"that is I, I think there are more product"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1692.549,"endTime":1696.479,"body":"owner and product manager positions than"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1692.549,"endTime":1696.479,"body":"there are scrum master positions out"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1696.479,"endTime":1702.239,"body":"there and I think 10 years from now that,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1696.479,"endTime":1702.239,"body":"that, that ratio is gonna be even more"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1702.539,"endTime":1706.139,"body":"tipped toward product managers, I think"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1702.539,"endTime":1706.139,"body":"there's gonna be less the scrum master"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1706.139,"endTime":1708.929,"body":"positions, and they're gonna be even"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1706.139,"endTime":1708.929,"body":"more competitive than they are today."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1709.379,"endTime":1713.199,"body":"And if safe continues gaining"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1709.379,"endTime":1713.199,"body":"market share the scrum master"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1713.204,"endTime":1715.539,"body":"positions that are out there won't"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1713.204,"endTime":1715.539,"body":"even be, I mean, they're not real."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1715.939,"endTime":1719.004,"body":"I'm trying not to attack safe"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1715.939,"endTime":1719.004,"body":"here,  the, is a safe Scrum"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1719.009,"endTime":1720.124,"body":"master really even a scrum master"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1720.524,"endTime":1721.394,"body":"topic for another decade?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1721.394,"endTime":1721.754,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1721.754,"endTime":1724.514,"body":"They'll, they'll, they'll, I"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1721.754,"endTime":1724.514,"body":"think they're gonna move further."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1724.514,"endTime":1729.964,"body":"It, it assuming safe gains, more"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1724.514,"endTime":1729.964,"body":"market share, you'll see more of that,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1729.964,"endTime":1733.675,"body":"that sector  that has those types of"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1729.964,"endTime":1733.675,"body":"scrum masters, safe scrum masters,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1734.304,"endTime":1737.544,"body":"like the financial and banking and"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1734.304,"endTime":1737.544,"body":"healthcare and stuff like that."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1737.794,"endTime":1742.804,"body":"You'll see more of that and less of the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1737.794,"endTime":1742.804,"body":"scrum master that they're looking for,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1742.809,"endTime":1746.909,"body":"that is developing teams and is involved"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1742.809,"endTime":1746.909,"body":"in org design and actually you know,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1747.089,"endTime":1749.939,"body":"deals with agility and, and can help"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1747.089,"endTime":1749.939,"body":"development teams and stuff like that."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1749.939,"endTime":1750.089,"body":"Like that."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1750.329,"endTime":1752.999,"body":"It, it, it's more of a mini"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1750.329,"endTime":1752.999,"body":"project manager by another name."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1753.389,"endTime":1755.729,"body":"Normally, I can see both sides"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1753.389,"endTime":1755.729,"body":"and defend both sides of a point."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1755.759,"endTime":1760.069,"body":"This one, I can't, I, I like if you"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1755.759,"endTime":1760.069,"body":"wanna say as a scrum master and you"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1760.559,"endTime":1763.469,"body":"see that if you, like 10 years from"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1760.559,"endTime":1763.469,"body":"now you're like, I still wanna be"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1763.469,"endTime":1766.649,"body":"a scrum master, or maybe I'll be a"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1763.469,"endTime":1766.649,"body":"consulting scrum master or whatever"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1766.809,"endTime":1769.689,"body":"I would run out and get a couple"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1766.809,"endTime":1769.689,"body":"of safe certs so you can work"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1769.689,"endTime":1772.999,"body":"across industries and I'd run out"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1769.689,"endTime":1772.999,"body":"and I'd get my PMP certification."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1773.004,"endTime":1773.379,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1773.659,"endTime":1777.869,"body":"My PMP certification, so that you,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1773.659,"endTime":1777.869,"body":"you do not get so frustrated with"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1777.869,"endTime":1783.089,"body":"companies that, are mixing the two and"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1777.869,"endTime":1783.089,"body":"they don't, that not mixing the two"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1783.149,"endTime":1785.759,"body":"because they just don't know mixing"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1783.149,"endTime":1785.759,"body":"the two because they just don't care."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1785.809,"endTime":1790.549,"body":"Now if we're talking about a project"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1785.809,"endTime":1790.549,"body":"manager who has a PMP certification,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1790.549,"endTime":1793.849,"body":"who's been doing something in the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1790.549,"endTime":1793.849,"body":"project management space, maybe for"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1793.849,"endTime":1795.859,"body":"the government, that's different."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1796.259,"endTime":1798.999,"body":"The, the question on the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1796.259,"endTime":1798.999,"body":"table was scrum master."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1799.179,"endTime":1799.599,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1799.679,"endTime":1803.289,"body":"Project manager is, I"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1799.679,"endTime":1803.289,"body":"believe, completely different."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1803.289,"endTime":1807.579,"body":"Yes, there's shades of project"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1803.289,"endTime":1807.579,"body":"management, but I do have my PMP"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1807.909,"endTime":1812.639,"body":"and there is a lot more, there's a"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1807.909,"endTime":1812.639,"body":"lot more on the plate of a project"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1812.644,"endTime":1818.969,"body":"manager than a scrum master who works"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1812.644,"endTime":1818.969,"body":"on a scrum team in an agile business."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1818.969,"endTime":1819.269,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1819.554,"endTime":1824.084,"body":"So if you wanted to take what you have"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1819.554,"endTime":1824.084,"body":"as a and and as your experience as"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1824.084,"endTime":1828.974,"body":"a scrum master and go into a project"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1824.084,"endTime":1828.974,"body":"management role in a big company, maybe"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1829.034,"endTime":1833.114,"body":"possibly for the government, then you're"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1829.034,"endTime":1833.114,"body":"talking probably some pretty good money."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1833.484,"endTime":1837.325,"body":"if that's what's driving you and"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1833.484,"endTime":1837.325,"body":"decision making and that kind of thing."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1837.624,"endTime":1841.884,"body":"I think what we're saying is the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1837.624,"endTime":1841.884,"body":"scrum master role as it is now in"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1841.884,"endTime":1845.814,"body":"Scrum with businesses doing scrum,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1841.884,"endTime":1845.814,"body":"they're falling by the wayside."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1845.904,"endTime":1846.114,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1846.114,"endTime":1846.174,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1846.294,"endTime":1847.044,"body":"They really are."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1847.044,"endTime":1847.104,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1847.164,"endTime":1847.434,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1847.704,"endTime":1850.764,"body":"Is that just your personal"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1847.704,"endTime":1850.764,"body":"belly barometer going off?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1850.764,"endTime":1851.064,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1851.064,"endTime":1853.764,"body":"Or, or have you actually, that's"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1851.064,"endTime":1853.764,"body":"just my personal read this from"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1853.764,"endTime":1856.614,"body":"experts predicting that we're gonna"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1853.764,"endTime":1856.614,"body":"see this change in the future."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1857.124,"endTime":1858.174,"body":"Well, it's my belly."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1858.464,"endTime":1861.434,"body":"The problem with querying experts"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1858.464,"endTime":1861.434,"body":"is that the only experts out there"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1861.434,"endTime":1864.134,"body":"talking about scrum masters on the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1861.434,"endTime":1864.134,"body":"internet are all the people with"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1864.134,"endTime":1865.964,"body":"podcasts and blogs that are trainers."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1866.609,"endTime":1870.629,"body":"This podcast is about the only one on"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1866.609,"endTime":1870.629,"body":"the internet in, in this space that's"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1870.629,"endTime":1874.889,"body":"not hosted by a trainer or someone"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1870.629,"endTime":1874.889,"body":"that stands to make money off of Scrum."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1875.279,"endTime":1879.004,"body":"That, that's the issue here is you would"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1875.279,"endTime":1879.004,"body":"never,  at the point where the house"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1879.004,"endTime":1883.204,"body":"is on fire, you'd never get a, a smoke"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1879.004,"endTime":1883.204,"body":"detector signal that like, this job is in"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1883.204,"endTime":1887.374,"body":"decline or companies don't respect this"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1883.204,"endTime":1887.374,"body":"position across the industry or whatever."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1887.374,"endTime":1891.294,"body":"You would never hear that clearly cuz"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1887.374,"endTime":1891.294,"body":"there's so many people that have a lot"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1891.299,"endTime":1893.064,"body":"to lose by broadcasting that signal."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1893.724,"endTime":1897.069,"body":"You occasionally you'll see an event"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1893.724,"endTime":1897.069,"body":"that happens that, that brushes against"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1897.069,"endTime":1901.179,"body":"this like the, like the Capital One"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1897.069,"endTime":1901.179,"body":"layoffs, well, how long have companies"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1901.179,"endTime":1906.549,"body":"now been doing when I moved to my"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1901.179,"endTime":1906.549,"body":"FinTech company back in 2017, they"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1906.549,"endTime":1908.949,"body":"were doing their Agile transformation."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1908.954,"endTime":1908.989,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1909.429,"endTime":1913.419,"body":"How much longer are companies gonna"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1909.429,"endTime":1913.419,"body":"be doing their Agile transformation?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1913.424,"endTime":1914.74,"body":"Those are the kinds of questions, right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1914.799,"endTime":1917.589,"body":"You can, this is exactly what"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1914.799,"endTime":1917.589,"body":"a product manager would do."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1917.989,"endTime":1920.209,"body":"Search the market, do some research."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1920.209,"endTime":1923.269,"body":"What's happening with this"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1920.209,"endTime":1923.269,"body":"position, who's getting laid off?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1923.299,"endTime":1925.219,"body":"Who, who is Facebook laying off?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1925.224,"endTime":1925.399,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1925.399,"endTime":1925.459,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1925.489,"endTime":1927.709,"body":"What, how, what's the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1925.489,"endTime":1927.709,"body":"percentage of Scrum masters?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1928.069,"endTime":1931.069,"body":"That's exactly the kind of research"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1928.069,"endTime":1931.069,"body":"you would do for your product."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1931.469,"endTime":1936.199,"body":"And, and now you're using it to do for,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1931.469,"endTime":1936.199,"body":"for, for a for a specific position."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1936.204,"endTime":1939.709,"body":"But you could really dig in and find"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1936.204,"endTime":1939.709,"body":"out, find out those questions if"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1939.709,"endTime":1942.859,"body":"you if you did some, a little bit"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1939.709,"endTime":1942.859,"body":"of research, I bet on who's getting"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1942.864,"endTime":1944.179,"body":"laid off and, and what companies."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1944.579,"endTime":1947.639,"body":"That's why I'm saying it's a belly thing,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1944.579,"endTime":1947.639,"body":"because I haven't done the research."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1947.644,"endTime":1949.499,"body":"It's just my instinct."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1949.504,"endTime":1949.519,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1949.739,"endTime":1950.399,"body":"As I'm talking to people."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1950.399,"endTime":1950.639,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1950.719,"endTime":1955.349,"body":"I'm not hearing about Scrum Masters or"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1950.719,"endTime":1955.349,"body":"really even people doing Scrum, but that's"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1955.349,"endTime":1959.469,"body":"in my, that's in my area right now, which"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1955.349,"endTime":1959.469,"body":"is completely outside of Yeah techno."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1959.469,"endTime":1962.079,"body":"It's in, I'm in a, a"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1959.469,"endTime":1962.079,"body":"completely different space now."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1962.109,"endTime":1966.009,"body":"You know what, and this isn't me"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1962.109,"endTime":1966.009,"body":"arguing very well on the scrum"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1966.009,"endTime":1970.509,"body":"master side, but just having this"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1966.009,"endTime":1970.509,"body":"conversation with you all, maybe four"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1970.509,"endTime":1974.249,"body":"years back, I did hear from a leader."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1974.534,"endTime":1979.784,"body":"Who is doing a, a lean meetup and he said,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1974.534,"endTime":1979.784,"body":"yes, scrum master role won't last forever."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1979.784,"endTime":1982.604,"body":"So definitely continue to get your"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1979.784,"endTime":1982.604,"body":"certifications and push yourself into"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1982.609,"endTime":1984.314,"body":"a coaching role as soon as possible."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1984.414,"endTime":1985.164,"body":"It was a thing."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1985.164,"endTime":1988.67,"body":"It was a and, and we know somebody"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1985.164,"endTime":1988.67,"body":"that made a, a lot of money off of it."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1988.879,"endTime":1992.659,"body":"I think that companies ultimately"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1988.879,"endTime":1992.659,"body":"found and are finding ways"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1992.659,"endTime":1996.719,"body":"around the prescriptive nature of"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1992.659,"endTime":1996.719,"body":"Scrum for, for various reasons."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1996.719,"endTime":2001.969,"body":"Whether it be due to their, their funding,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":1996.719,"endTime":2001.969,"body":"their, their products, specifically the,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2001.999,"endTime":2003.889,"body":"the, the complexity of their product."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2003.889,"endTime":2008.269,"body":"Maybe they have hardware like I do, that"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2003.889,"endTime":2008.269,"body":"adds a complete different layer to it."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2008.274,"endTime":2013.44,"body":"So it's difficult to do Scrum, but I think"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2008.274,"endTime":2013.44,"body":"Scrum had its day and I think that in, in,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2013.469,"endTime":2018.509,"body":"in a lot of cases it might be kind of on"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2013.469,"endTime":2018.509,"body":"a, on a decline and, and something new."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2018.539,"endTime":2020.429,"body":"But that's just my opinion."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2020.429,"endTime":2022.229,"body":"I, I could be completely off base."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2022.234,"endTime":2025.529,"body":"I'm not in that technology space anymore."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2025.799,"endTime":2026.069,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2026.469,"endTime":2029.019,"body":"I still wanna look up to"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2026.469,"endTime":2029.019,"body":"see the actual salaries."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2029.019,"endTime":2030.519,"body":"I couldn't find anything that was good."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2031.509,"endTime":2034.209,"body":"Like I, I was trying to find, I was trying"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2031.509,"endTime":2034.209,"body":"to look on Glassdoor and I was trying"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2034.209,"endTime":2035.979,"body":"to look on a, yeah, I'm a glass door."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2036.229,"endTime":2038.219,"body":"What is the highest"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2036.229,"endTime":2038.219,"body":"salary of a product owner?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2039.109,"endTime":2040.399,"body":"You can't look up product owner."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2040.489,"endTime":2041.299,"body":"Look up Product manager."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2041.539,"endTime":2041.629,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2041.629,"endTime":2042.439,"body":"It's 1 42."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2042.829,"endTime":2043.609,"body":"Does that seem low?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2044.119,"endTime":2044.599,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2044.629,"endTime":2045.169,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2045.349,"endTime":2045.709,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2045.769,"endTime":2047.689,"body":"And it depends on the space too."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2048.379,"endTime":2049.129,"body":"It dis Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2049.189,"endTime":2050.119,"body":"It depends on the space."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2050.169,"endTime":2053.434,"body":"I think, I just think the market is far"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2050.169,"endTime":2053.434,"body":"more expansive for a product manager"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2053.584,"endTime":2058.164,"body":"than it is for a scrum master and, and"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2053.584,"endTime":2058.164,"body":"for example, Like the podcast I really"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2058.164,"endTime":2062.754,"body":"would like to get to with Tricia of being"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2058.164,"endTime":2062.754,"body":"the first product manager at a company"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2062.904,"endTime":2064.434,"body":"like there, there are, there, oh my God."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2064.434,"endTime":2065.844,"body":"There are equity options."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2065.849,"endTime":2065.934,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2065.934,"endTime":2069.804,"body":"And all kinds of other things that, that"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2065.934,"endTime":2069.804,"body":"would apply for a product manager that"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2069.809,"endTime":2072.114,"body":"would just never apply First Scrum Master."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2072.119,"endTime":2072.714,"body":"I totally agree."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2072.714,"endTime":2076.164,"body":"You know, and, and, and in fact I"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2072.714,"endTime":2076.164,"body":"think the, the, the more realistic"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2076.164,"endTime":2080.394,"body":"scenario is a small company like that"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2076.164,"endTime":2080.394,"body":"will just hire a contract Agile coach"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2080.394,"endTime":2083.244,"body":"to somebody to get them over whatever"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2080.394,"endTime":2083.244,"body":"pains that they're experiencing at the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2083.244,"endTime":2086.124,"body":"moment and then cut 'em loose once,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2083.244,"endTime":2086.124,"body":"once they get to a certain point."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2086.129,"endTime":2086.344,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2086.544,"endTime":2088.014,"body":"You know, and that's,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2086.544,"endTime":2088.014,"body":"that's the career field."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2088.014,"endTime":2092.254,"body":"So I mean, if, if you are, if you're"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2088.014,"endTime":2092.254,"body":"on board with like being a career"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2093.124,"endTime":2096.724,"body":"consultant coming in for a certain"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2093.124,"endTime":2096.724,"body":"period of time or whatever, and then"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2096.724,"endTime":2101.284,"body":"bouncing out once you empower them with"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2096.724,"endTime":2101.284,"body":"a certain skill or whatever, that's cool."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2101.334,"endTime":2104.764,"body":"I'm not trying to say that's not a"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2101.334,"endTime":2104.764,"body":"good job or, or a career or whatever."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2104.824,"endTime":2107.944,"body":"It certainly, it would be interesting"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2104.824,"endTime":2107.944,"body":"for someone who really, really,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2107.949,"endTime":2109.774,"body":"really enjoys that, that type of work"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2110.374,"endTime":2115.574,"body":"do you think there's actually a need"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2110.374,"endTime":2115.574,"body":"for a business analyst because that"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2115.574,"endTime":2117.424,"body":"role isn't described in the scrum guide?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2117.721,"endTime":2121.715,"body":"I think in some big giant enterprise"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2117.721,"endTime":2121.715,"body":"companies it is because they are"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2121.715,"endTime":2127.595,"body":"the ones that have to extract what"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2121.715,"endTime":2127.595,"body":"they want from these, no, nothing."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2127.595,"endTime":2129.755,"body":"People that have no idea"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2127.595,"endTime":2129.755,"body":"what they're asking for."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2129.755,"endTime":2129.845,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2130.085,"endTime":2134.315,"body":"So, yes, like in, in big giant companies,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2130.085,"endTime":2134.315,"body":"I think business analysts are actually"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2134.345,"endTime":2135.186,"body":"more important than Scrum Masters."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2135.565,"endTime":2135.855,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2136.135,"endTime":2139.115,"body":"I, I worked at a utility"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2136.135,"endTime":2139.115,"body":"for almost a year."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2139.61,"endTime":2141.92,"body":"And they had a whole"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2139.61,"endTime":2141.92,"body":"staff of business analyst."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2141.925,"endTime":2141.94,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2141.94,"endTime":2143.81,"body":"I, and, and honestly they needed them."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2143.93,"endTime":2144.05,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2144.08,"endTime":2146.695,"body":"Because think about legacy"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2144.08,"endTime":2146.695,"body":"applications that companies produce"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2146.845,"endTime":2150.175,"body":"and then they run for 10 years and"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2146.845,"endTime":2150.175,"body":"then all the people that built the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2150.175,"endTime":2151.705,"body":"system or whatever leave are gone."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2151.705,"endTime":2154.495,"body":"You need people to reverse and,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2151.705,"endTime":2154.495,"body":"and people with technical skill."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2154.525,"endTime":2154.675,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2154.675,"endTime":2156.655,"body":"And people with writing skill"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2154.675,"endTime":2156.655,"body":"and communication skill."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2156.865,"endTime":2160.285,"body":"Like you need them to reverse"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2156.865,"endTime":2160.285,"body":"engineer entire business systems."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2160.285,"endTime":2160.645,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2160.655,"endTime":2162.895,"body":"Toand how they work,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2160.655,"endTime":2162.895,"body":"what the workflows are."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2162.895,"endTime":2165.715,"body":"They can do, they can do a lot of"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2162.895,"endTime":2165.715,"body":"stuff that u i UX people do actually."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2165.715,"endTime":2165.805,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2165.805,"endTime":2167.665,"body":"They can do user journey maps Yep."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2167.765,"endTime":2169.66,"body":"And yeah, they have a"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2167.765,"endTime":2169.66,"body":"lot of valuable skill."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2169.78,"endTime":2174.66,"body":"The a, a big, and, and in fact a, a big"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2169.78,"endTime":2174.66,"body":"boon of of my career is I did the business"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2174.66,"endTime":2179.84,"body":"analyst job very, very early in my"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2174.66,"endTime":2179.84,"body":"career and it helped me my entire career."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2179.84,"endTime":2180.74,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2180.74,"endTime":2181.52,"body":"What a great foundation."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2181.94,"endTime":2183.26,"body":"Yeah, yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2183.265,"endTime":2186.5,"body":"And when, when I was, because when"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2183.265,"endTime":2186.5,"body":"I was a scrum master, I could, I"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2186.5,"endTime":2189.69,"body":"could perform that skill to the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2186.5,"endTime":2189.69,"body":"team, to the development team."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2189.69,"endTime":2193.38,"body":"I could help them write better stories,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2189.69,"endTime":2193.38,"body":"and I, I could be a, another voice helping"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2193.38,"endTime":2197.37,"body":"them break epics into stories ab help"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2193.38,"endTime":2197.37,"body":"them deliver things in a specific order"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2197.37,"endTime":2199.29,"body":"that, that, that people saw value in."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2199.47,"endTime":2199.56,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2199.8,"endTime":2203.89,"body":"I had that skill years before I ever"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2199.8,"endTime":2203.89,"body":"started being, being a scrum master."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2203.895,"endTime":2204.12,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2204.31,"endTime":2204.58,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2204.58,"endTime":2208.18,"body":"But I, I mean, that, that should be the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2204.58,"endTime":2208.18,"body":"benefit of being a scrum master on the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2208.18,"endTime":2214.21,"body":"team, is you have the bandwidth to absorb"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2208.18,"endTime":2214.21,"body":"skills of the different team members to"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2214.21,"endTime":2216.17,"body":"help them when they need help or whatever."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2216.17,"endTime":2219.71,"body":"Like if, if the BA is stressed and"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2216.17,"endTime":2219.71,"body":"overworked or whatever, maybe they"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2219.71,"endTime":2220.86,"body":"can spill over some tasks on you."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2220.86,"endTime":2221.06,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2221.14,"endTime":2222.32,"body":"Same thing with the product manager."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2222.68,"endTime":2225.56,"body":"Uh with, with backlog management"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2222.68,"endTime":2225.56,"body":"and stuff like that, you, you, they"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2225.56,"endTime":2227.18,"body":"can spill over some tasks to you."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2227.58,"endTime":2230.31,"body":"You know what, it's interesting,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2227.58,"endTime":2230.31,"body":"Tricia said, look up what"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2230.315,"endTime":2231.81,"body":"a product manager makes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2231.815,"endTime":2232.59,"body":"And that's the amount."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2232.59,"endTime":2235.86,"body":"It says, it says 1 0 2 to 1 25."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2235.86,"endTime":2239.315,"body":"And again, that must be on the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2235.86,"endTime":2239.315,"body":"low end I look, so I just searched"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2239.315,"endTime":2241.025,"body":"Glassdoor this is not a great search."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2241.025,"endTime":2243.625,"body":"I, I just search, I searched"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2241.025,"endTime":2243.625,"body":"Glassdoor and I, and I swiped once"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2244.175,"endTime":2245.105,"body":"to see the different salaries."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2245.105,"endTime":2248.195,"body":"I just, I typed in product manager"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2245.105,"endTime":2248.195,"body":"and I swiped, and then I, and"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2248.195,"endTime":2250.355,"body":"then I changed, and I typed in"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2248.195,"endTime":2250.355,"body":"the scrum master and I swiped, and"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2250.355,"endTime":2253.265,"body":"with scrum master, the salaries are"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2250.355,"endTime":2253.265,"body":"capping out at about 1 20, 1 30."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2253.265,"endTime":2253.625,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2253.71,"endTime":2256.415,"body":"And with product manager,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2253.71,"endTime":2256.415,"body":"went up into the mid 200 s."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2256.415,"endTime":2256.475,"body":"Whoa."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2256.745,"endTime":2259.025,"body":"Oh, that's, that's a big difference."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2259.025,"endTime":2261.545,"body":"The salary.com said, I didn't,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2259.025,"endTime":2261.545,"body":"I didn't click the salary thing."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2261.845,"endTime":2264.695,"body":"I just looked at jobs and just"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2261.845,"endTime":2264.695,"body":"looked at what it was recording."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2264.7,"endTime":2265.745,"body":"That's, and I just, that's tracks for me."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2266.225,"endTime":2269.285,"body":"So I, I would, I would say,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2266.225,"endTime":2269.285,"body":"I mean, , I'm, I'm completely"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2269.285,"endTime":2270.635,"body":"open, no filters, no nothing."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2270.635,"endTime":2275.285,"body":"I don't know where any of these jobs are,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2270.635,"endTime":2275.285,"body":"but but again, I, like I said, the, the,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2275.465,"endTime":2278.915,"body":"the range of jobs and the people looking"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2275.465,"endTime":2278.915,"body":"for scrum master jobs, I would expect"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2278.92,"endTime":2281.075,"body":"like a lot of stuff is off the table."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2281.495,"endTime":2282.965,"body":"That would be on the table for product."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2283.25,"endTime":2286.97,"body":"People, like I said, product people,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2283.25,"endTime":2286.97,"body":"they're, they're willing to bonuses,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2286.97,"endTime":2289.16,"body":"they're willing equity, they're"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2286.97,"endTime":2289.16,"body":"willing to do a bunch of stuff"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2289.52,"endTime":2293.12,"body":"just to get you in the door because"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2289.52,"endTime":2293.12,"body":"experience people in the door."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2293.12,"endTime":2293.57,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2294.5,"endTime":2298.01,"body":"Because it really is when, when a company,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2294.5,"endTime":2298.01,"body":"when a startup gets to a point where"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2298.01,"endTime":2299.82,"body":"they need product, they need product."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2299.88,"endTime":2300.3,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2300.95,"endTime":2305.3,"body":"The, the CEO is, is, can't take"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2300.95,"endTime":2305.3,"body":"it any further and they risk not"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2305.3,"endTime":2307.25,"body":"being able to take that next step."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2307.25,"endTime":2312.35,"body":"So it's a huge hire, which is why"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2307.25,"endTime":2312.35,"body":"you probably wanna talk about that."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2312.38,"endTime":2315.32,"body":"It's a huge hire that the first"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2312.38,"endTime":2315.32,"body":"product, well this is, this is part"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2315.32,"endTime":2319.18,"body":"of the draw that I'm, I'm trying to"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2315.32,"endTime":2319.18,"body":"outline is, is you probably already"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2319.18,"endTime":2322.7,"body":"have a lot of these skills that are"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2319.18,"endTime":2322.7,"body":"difficult for these companies to get,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2322.73,"endTime":2324.89,"body":"in a product manager, they're trying"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2322.73,"endTime":2324.89,"body":"to get these product managers."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2324.895,"endTime":2328.61,"body":"I, I see so many applications, product"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2324.895,"endTime":2328.61,"body":"managers of people straight out of school."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2329.13,"endTime":2329.42,"body":"What?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2329.84,"endTime":2330.08,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2330.14,"endTime":2331.31,"body":"So many with no experience."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2331.34,"endTime":2336.77,"body":"I'm, I'm talking like 75% of the resumes"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2331.34,"endTime":2336.77,"body":"submitted to job openings are people"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2336.77,"endTime":2338.81,"body":"with absolutely no product experience."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2338.84,"endTime":2341.85,"body":"And these people are not coming"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2338.84,"endTime":2341.85,"body":"from an adjacent position."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2341.85,"endTime":2342.66,"body":"They're coming from school."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2342.66,"endTime":2345.9,"body":"They have no experience, they have no"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2342.66,"endTime":2345.9,"body":"industry experience, no product management"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2345.9,"endTime":2347.16,"body":"experience, no experience basically."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2347.31,"endTime":2351.06,"body":"But as a scrum master, you already have"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2347.31,"endTime":2351.06,"body":"experience working with development teams."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2351.115,"endTime":2354.615,"body":"You likely have experience sitting with"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2351.115,"endTime":2354.615,"body":"development teams and helping them break"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2354.615,"endTime":2358.425,"body":"stories into smaller stories and helping"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2354.615,"endTime":2358.425,"body":"them understand good acceptance criteria."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2358.555,"endTime":2362.775,"body":"Not even to mention the, helping"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2358.555,"endTime":2362.775,"body":"a team grow and all the team"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2362.775,"endTime":2363.975,"body":"skills we talked about before."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2364.395,"endTime":2370.345,"body":"And, and all of that is before"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2364.395,"endTime":2370.345,"body":"we even talk about like your"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2370.375,"endTime":2372.595,"body":"personal communication skills."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2373.57,"endTime":2375.58,"body":"Right, which I mentioned"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2373.57,"endTime":2375.58,"body":"before, before this podcast."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2375.59,"endTime":2378.5,"body":"A lot of product managers,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2375.59,"endTime":2378.5,"body":"especially people like me who"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2378.5,"endTime":2380.42,"body":"moved, moved over from tech."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2380.66,"endTime":2380.93,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2381.37,"endTime":2385.73,"body":"I have to work on my communication skill"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2381.37,"endTime":2385.73,"body":"in order to be a better product manager."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2386.32,"endTime":2389.2,"body":"Whereas it would've been a lot"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2386.32,"endTime":2389.2,"body":"better if my communication skill was"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2389.2,"endTime":2393.49,"body":"already excellent and then I moved"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2389.2,"endTime":2393.49,"body":"over, see that my communication"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2393.49,"endTime":2394.84,"body":"skills, I wrote a blog on it."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2394.84,"endTime":2401.54,"body":"I don't know if you read it, but my coming"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2394.84,"endTime":2401.54,"body":"in as really I came in as an educator."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2401.88,"endTime":2405.36,"body":"I got my degree in elementary"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2401.88,"endTime":2405.36,"body":"education and my ability to"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2405.36,"endTime":2406.62,"body":"communicate and have empathy."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2406.62,"endTime":2408.89,"body":"I've been work, I had been"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2406.62,"endTime":2408.89,"body":"working on my Emotional"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2408.89,"endTime":2411.2,"body":"intelligence, it went a long way."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2411.2,"endTime":2411.29,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2411.32,"endTime":2416.78,"body":"Because my, my whole thing, and I'll stand"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2411.32,"endTime":2416.78,"body":"to it to this day, is people over product."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2416.78,"endTime":2420.71,"body":"When you start learn the people,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2416.78,"endTime":2420.71,"body":"learn the team, find out how they"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2420.71,"endTime":2425.66,"body":"tick before you ever even start at"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2420.71,"endTime":2425.66,"body":"talking about making any changes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2425.66,"endTime":2425.94,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2426.02,"endTime":2430.46,"body":"Because the buy-in at"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2426.02,"endTime":2430.46,"body":"that point is, is crucial."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2430.49,"endTime":2433.47,"body":"If you come in like a, a I'm"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2430.49,"endTime":2433.47,"body":"gonna do this and I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2433.47,"endTime":2435.72,"body":"do that, it, it doesn't work."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2435.72,"endTime":2439.621,"body":"And your ability to communicate from being"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2435.72,"endTime":2439.621,"body":"a scrum master and your empathy mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2439.627,"endTime":2440.41,"body":"And that it."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2441.12,"endTime":2443.94,"body":"It's, it's more important than"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2441.12,"endTime":2443.94,"body":"actually knowing the product."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2443.95,"endTime":2447.49,"body":"And people would argue that right"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2443.95,"endTime":2447.49,"body":"now, people would argue that, but"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2447.49,"endTime":2450.64,"body":"I would, I would say none of those"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2447.49,"endTime":2450.64,"body":"people would argue that are leadership."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2450.645,"endTime":2450.77,"body":"That's correct."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2450.77,"endTime":2454.395,"body":"Because they already know I so many"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2450.77,"endTime":2454.395,"body":"times, like Om and, I harp on this a lot"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2454.395,"endTime":2457.305,"body":"is like leadership new leadership comes"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2454.395,"endTime":2457.305,"body":"in and what's the first thing they do?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2457.425,"endTime":2458.785,"body":"They hire all their friends"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2457.425,"endTime":2458.785,"body":"and they bring them in."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2458.785,"endTime":2459.145,"body":"You know why?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2459.435,"endTime":2462.225,"body":"Because they trust them, because they"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2459.435,"endTime":2462.225,"body":"know they have these communication"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2462.23,"endTime":2465.435,"body":"skills or the, or they know that"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2462.23,"endTime":2465.435,"body":"they can work with these people."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2465.465,"endTime":2465.615,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2465.835,"endTime":2469.105,"body":"They already know, Hey, this"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2465.835,"endTime":2469.105,"body":"is someone I can relate to."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2469.195,"endTime":2470.095,"body":"They have empathy."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2470.185,"endTime":2472.225,"body":"I can trust them, and they"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2470.185,"endTime":2472.225,"body":"have a communication skill."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2472.315,"endTime":2474.745,"body":"I'm gonna bring them in even if"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2472.315,"endTime":2474.745,"body":"they don't even know my business."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2474.775,"endTime":2474.865,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2475.105,"endTime":2475.705,"body":"I'm gonna bring them in."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2475.705,"endTime":2476.246,"body":"Why do they do that?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2476.646,"endTime":2478.386,"body":"I mean, there, there's a lot"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2476.646,"endTime":2478.386,"body":"of bad reasons why they do"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2478.386,"endTime":2479.346,"body":"that, but I'm a focus person."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2479.351,"endTime":2479.426,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2479.426,"endTime":2481.626,"body":"Let's reason, let's, we're talking"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2479.426,"endTime":2481.626,"body":"about the good reasons, right?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2481.626,"endTime":2484.686,"body":"The good reason is if you, if you"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2481.626,"endTime":2484.686,"body":"already have these, communication skills,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2484.866,"endTime":2486.366,"body":"you already know how to build a team."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2486.786,"endTime":2488.346,"body":"You're, you're shortcutting halfway there."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2488.501,"endTime":2491.046,"body":"All the difficult parts of the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2488.501,"endTime":2491.046,"body":"job, you've already shortcut."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2491.341,"endTime":2494.131,"body":"What do they say in, in"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2491.341,"endTime":2494.131,"body":"product soft skills, right?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2494.161,"endTime":2495.421,"body":"Are everything right?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2495.781,"endTime":2497.251,"body":"They really, really are."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2497.761,"endTime":2501.621,"body":"You're, like we said earlier you're gonna"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2497.761,"endTime":2501.621,"body":"have to learn the product anyway, right?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2501.771,"endTime":2505.761,"body":"You're never gonna find a job unless"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2501.771,"endTime":2505.761,"body":"you're, unless you're specifically"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2505.766,"endTime":2509.631,"body":"looking in the same industry, it's"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2505.766,"endTime":2509.631,"body":"never gonna be the same product job."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2509.841,"endTime":2511.581,"body":"You're gonna have to learn that product."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2511.581,"endTime":2512.811,"body":"You're gonna have to learn that industry."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2512.811,"endTime":2514.311,"body":"You're gonna have to"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2512.811,"endTime":2514.311,"body":"learn those customers."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2514.311,"endTime":2514.401,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2514.701,"endTime":2518.841,"body":"So if you can come in front loaded already"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2514.701,"endTime":2518.841,"body":"with the soft skills, they don't have"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2518.841,"endTime":2524.221,"body":"to worry about that, then you can start"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2518.841,"endTime":2524.221,"body":"learning that piece and it just flows and,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2524.511,"endTime":2528.461,"body":"and you've probably already spent a"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2524.511,"endTime":2528.461,"body":"significant amount of time advocating"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2528.801,"endTime":2532.551,"body":"for the customer to be involved,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2528.801,"endTime":2532.551,"body":"which, which is what you would"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2532.551,"endTime":2533.721,"body":"do in product management anyway."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2533.991,"endTime":2536.631,"body":"You'd be advocating to say, Hey,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2533.991,"endTime":2536.631,"body":"how can we make the decision"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2536.631,"endTime":2537.651,"body":"without the customer in the room?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2537.951,"endTime":2538.911,"body":"Let's talk to the customer."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2539.031,"endTime":2539.361,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2539.961,"endTime":2542.721,"body":"So you're just moving over"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2539.961,"endTime":2542.721,"body":"like a tiny little side step."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2543.711,"endTime":2548.031,"body":"Well, let's talk about the last"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2543.711,"endTime":2548.031,"body":"topic here, which is job advancement."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2548.091,"endTime":2548.181,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2548.601,"endTime":2553.041,"body":"Now, for a scrum master, usually they're"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2548.601,"endTime":2553.041,"body":"trying to ascend into some sort of"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2553.041,"endTime":2557.211,"body":"coaching role, just making a blanket"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2553.041,"endTime":2557.211,"body":"generalization statement here, but do"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2557.211,"endTime":2562.281,"body":"you think it would be wiser to instead"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2557.211,"endTime":2562.281,"body":"move into a product management role?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2562.481,"endTime":2564.131,"body":"Where do you want to go with your career?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2564.131,"endTime":2566.471,"body":"Like, do you, do you want"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2564.131,"endTime":2566.471,"body":"to start your own business?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2566.476,"endTime":2567.611,"body":"Do you wanna be a business leader?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2567.641,"endTime":2572.381,"body":"Because if you do being a business leader"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2567.641,"endTime":2572.381,"body":"on somebody else's dime and like failing"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2572.381,"endTime":2576.171,"body":"on somebody else's time and, and budget,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2572.381,"endTime":2576.171,"body":"that's where I would want to be like,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2576.741,"endTime":2581.301,"body":"Hey, I'm gonna try things in the market"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2576.741,"endTime":2581.301,"body":"and explore new markets and fail, and"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2581.316,"endTime":2582.606,"body":"you're gonna pay for all my learnings."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2583.131,"endTime":2587.391,"body":"And then when I'm, when I have learned"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2583.131,"endTime":2587.391,"body":"enough about how to do this successfully,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2587.721,"endTime":2589.251,"body":"now I'm gonna launch my own company."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2589.381,"endTime":2593.911,"body":"If that's where you want to go,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2589.381,"endTime":2593.911,"body":"it's an immediate step towards that."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2594.267,"endTime":2595.827,"body":"it depends on where you wanna go."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2595.917,"endTime":2596.217,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2596.217,"endTime":2597.177,"body":"What do you wanna do?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2597.207,"endTime":2598.527,"body":"Do you wanna work with people?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2599.167,"endTime":2605.497,"body":"And coach them and continue to talk about"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2599.167,"endTime":2605.497,"body":"Agile and Scrum and, and be that person."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2605.827,"endTime":2610.957,"body":"Do you want to learn something new and"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2605.827,"endTime":2610.957,"body":"wrap your arms around a cool product"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2610.962,"endTime":2614.197,"body":"that could help people or help the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2610.962,"endTime":2614.197,"body":"environment do you wanna start your"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2614.197,"endTime":2618.477,"body":"own consulting business and maybe go"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2614.197,"endTime":2618.477,"body":"in and help people learn about product?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2618.527,"endTime":2621.107,"body":"the, the consulting for"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2618.527,"endTime":2621.107,"body":"me and product is tough."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2621.107,"endTime":2623.792,"body":"Mm-hmm, because I don't"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2621.107,"endTime":2623.792,"body":"have any skin in the game."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2623.972,"endTime":2624.572,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2624.662,"endTime":2629.762,"body":"And my passion comes from caring"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2624.662,"endTime":2629.762,"body":"about the product that I Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2629.822,"endTime":2631.142,"body":"Am building."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2631.147,"endTime":2631.182,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2631.382,"endTime":2635.492,"body":"And, and most likely you're not gonna"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2631.382,"endTime":2635.492,"body":"be around in, in consulting, you're not"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2635.492,"endTime":2638.547,"body":"gonna be around long enough to see the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2635.492,"endTime":2638.547,"body":"actual it's like, it's like you're, you're"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2638.547,"endTime":2641.367,"body":"like a consultant leadership team member."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2641.372,"endTime":2641.407,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2641.967,"endTime":2645.387,"body":"You know, in order to make real"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2641.967,"endTime":2645.387,"body":"changes, like call, call, you should,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2645.387,"endTime":2647.187,"body":"like as a scrum master, right?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2647.787,"endTime":2651.737,"body":"To change the culture of the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2647.787,"endTime":2651.737,"body":"organization you need time."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2652.007,"endTime":2652.297,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2652.607,"endTime":2656.057,"body":"Like a significant amount of"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2652.607,"endTime":2656.057,"body":"time with applied effort from the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2656.057,"endTime":2657.857,"body":"leadership to change the culture."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2658.247,"endTime":2660.827,"body":"Product is a similar way, , if"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2658.247,"endTime":2660.827,"body":"you're a consultant product,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2660.827,"endTime":2661.787,"body":"you can make a lot of changes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2661.787,"endTime":2663.107,"body":"You can help them build a roadmap."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2663.707,"endTime":2666.947,"body":"And as long as you are there, you know"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2663.707,"endTime":2666.947,"body":"that they're gonna stay the course"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2666.952,"endTime":2668.457,"body":"because you're helping them build."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2668.717,"endTime":2671.377,"body":"But as soon as you leave, I mean"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2668.717,"endTime":2671.377,"body":"it's, it's just like when you're"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2671.377,"endTime":2672.577,"body":"like a consulting scrum master."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2672.577,"endTime":2674.827,"body":"This is why Agile transformation"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2672.577,"endTime":2674.827,"body":"gets a, gets a bad rap too."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2674.827,"endTime":2675.097,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2675.307,"endTime":2677.527,"body":"As soon as the consultants go"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2675.307,"endTime":2677.527,"body":"away, the Agile transformation"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2677.527,"endTime":2678.577,"body":"goes away over the consultants."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2678.577,"endTime":2678.927,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2679.147,"endTime":2679.537,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2679.597,"endTime":2680.347,"body":"Products is K."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2680.467,"endTime":2682.717,"body":"Leadership culture changes"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2680.467,"endTime":2682.717,"body":"kind of the same way"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2682.927,"endTime":2683.918,"body":"how many times have you heard this?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2684.097,"endTime":2687.517,"body":"The person sponsoring Agile"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2684.097,"endTime":2687.517,"body":"at the company mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2687.577,"endTime":2690.277,"body":"Went away and the whole agile"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2687.577,"endTime":2690.277,"body":"transformation collapsed"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2690.277,"endTime":2691.177,"body":"when that person went away."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2691.357,"endTime":2693.728,"body":"How many times have you"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2691.357,"endTime":2693.728,"body":"heard that over and over?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2694.087,"endTime":2698.407,"body":"This is the exact same thing as of why,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2694.087,"endTime":2698.407,"body":"like when I would rather be permanent"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2698.882,"endTime":2704.962,"body":"product at a company, because I'm making"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2698.882,"endTime":2704.962,"body":"big bets to change the direction of"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2704.962,"endTime":2707.872,"body":"the company or to change the direction"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2704.962,"endTime":2707.872,"body":"of the product or to make them a, a"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2707.872,"endTime":2710.032,"body":"boatload of money yachts for everyone."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2710.032,"endTime":2710.602,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2710.607,"endTime":2710.612,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2711.202,"endTime":2713.422,"body":"And I want to be there when"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2711.202,"endTime":2713.422,"body":"all the yachts come in."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2713.427,"endTime":2714.232,"body":"That's exactly, that's what I'm saying."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2714.352,"endTime":2715.342,"body":"And, and I do too."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2715.672,"endTime":2720.472,"body":"It it, you're giving a piece of yourself"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2715.672,"endTime":2720.472,"body":"when you're a product manager, a good one."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2720.832,"endTime":2726.167,"body":"And it's very, very difficult to walk"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2720.832,"endTime":2726.167,"body":"away as a consultant it's anti-climactic."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2726.167,"endTime":2728.772,"body":"I can't imagine finding"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2726.167,"endTime":2728.772,"body":"fulfillment in that."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2728.772,"endTime":2728.862,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2728.922,"endTime":2729.342,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2729.952,"endTime":2733.132,"body":"again, the, the, what I'm pointing"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2729.952,"endTime":2733.132,"body":"at is you, you've already developed"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2733.132,"endTime":2736.942,"body":"a lot of these skills that are"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2733.132,"endTime":2736.942,"body":"directly applicable to leadership."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2737.072,"endTime":2738.512,"body":"You've already developed all these skills."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2738.662,"endTime":2740.022,"body":"Where do you want to go"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2738.662,"endTime":2740.022,"body":"with all these skills?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2740.402,"endTime":2744.782,"body":"I feel as a scrum master, you will"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2740.402,"endTime":2744.782,"body":"reach a critical mass where you've"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2744.782,"endTime":2748.772,"body":"seen the same problems over and over"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2744.782,"endTime":2748.772,"body":"again, where you get tired of solving"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2748.772,"endTime":2750.692,"body":"the same problems, you're not growing."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2751.262,"endTime":2752.132,"body":"Yeah, I see that."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2752.132,"endTime":2752.642,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2752.942,"endTime":2753.872,"body":"Which creates burnout."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2754.382,"endTime":2754.863,"body":"Sure, yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2754.892,"endTime":2755.312,"body":"Apathy."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2755.502,"endTime":2755.792,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2756.482,"endTime":2761.882,"body":"Or, or you become, dare I say like me,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2756.482,"endTime":2761.882,"body":"where you're like listen, like I, like I"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2761.882,"endTime":2766.082,"body":"can work you through the solutions and I"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2761.882,"endTime":2766.082,"body":"can I can bring your team along and ask"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2766.082,"endTime":2769.172,"body":"questions and all that, but I already"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2766.082,"endTime":2769.172,"body":"know what the answers are gonna be."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2769.832,"endTime":2771.272,"body":"You know, I like, I don't need to lobby."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2771.272,"endTime":2771.792,"body":"Please skip to the end."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2771.872,"endTime":2773.822,"body":"I don't need to lobby for three"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2771.872,"endTime":2773.822,"body":"months that you need to split"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2773.822,"endTime":2776.932,"body":"this team of 30 into a couple"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2773.822,"endTime":2776.932,"body":"different can we not do this?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2776.932,"endTime":2777.372,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2777.432,"endTime":2779.002,"body":"Can you just, can you just take my word?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2779.062,"endTime":2779.272,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2779.482,"endTime":2780.677,"body":"Uh of all these, that's why you hired me."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2781.117,"endTime":2781.317,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2782.157,"endTime":2782.817,"body":"That's a good point."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2783.147,"endTime":2787.827,"body":"So I don't, I like, part of it is like,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2783.147,"endTime":2787.827,"body":"well, what can you put up with over time?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2787.827,"endTime":2790.467,"body":"But also it's like, do, I mean,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2787.827,"endTime":2790.467,"body":"do you want to keep doing that?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2790.467,"endTime":2792.067,"body":"I, I can't imagine."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2792.227,"endTime":2794.847,"body":"I don't, you wanna take on something"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2792.227,"endTime":2794.847,"body":"new and learn something new?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2794.847,"endTime":2795.687,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2795.897,"endTime":2798.387,"body":"You will be so good in this capacity."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2798.387,"endTime":2802.347,"body":"I know your personality and I"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2798.387,"endTime":2802.347,"body":"just, I think you'll thrive."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2802.407,"endTime":2803.427,"body":"You'll be nervous, of course."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2803.997,"endTime":2805.167,"body":"But yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2805.447,"endTime":2807.337,"body":"I should let the listeners know too."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2807.607,"endTime":2811.357,"body":"Both Brian and Tricia have been my"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2807.607,"endTime":2811.357,"body":"product owners previously, and both of"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2811.357,"endTime":2814.927,"body":"them provided me personally with the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2811.357,"endTime":2814.927,"body":"feedback that I should move into product."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2815.327,"endTime":2817.547,"body":"And we stand by it even"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2815.327,"endTime":2817.547,"body":"this many years later."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2817.637,"endTime":2819.107,"body":"Yeah, it's been several years."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2819.107,"endTime":2822.767,"body":"Both of you're saying I should,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2819.107,"endTime":2822.767,"body":"and you said earlier it's because"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2822.767,"endTime":2824.897,"body":"of the you have more control."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2824.902,"endTime":2825.377,"body":"You do, right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2825.497,"endTime":2826.877,"body":"You do have more control."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2827.087,"endTime":2831.317,"body":"And, but with that, it comes the, the risk"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2827.087,"endTime":2831.317,"body":"you have to be able to take the mistakes."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2831.317,"endTime":2833.837,"body":"You have to be able to have"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2831.317,"endTime":2833.837,"body":"accountability and say, my mistake,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2833.842,"endTime":2836.717,"body":"let's move on because it's your product."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2837.347,"endTime":2840.227,"body":"You are the one that's making"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2837.347,"endTime":2840.227,"body":"the decisions and the development"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2840.227,"endTime":2841.727,"body":"team is following your lead."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2842.297,"endTime":2846.437,"body":"So if you're not the type of person"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2842.297,"endTime":2846.437,"body":"that can take the blame for an entire"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2846.442,"endTime":2850.427,"body":"team and shoulder that and move on,"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2846.442,"endTime":2850.427,"body":"then it's probably not the right"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2850.427,"endTime":2852.167,"body":"role for you, but I do think it is."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2852.267,"endTime":2854.667,"body":"But who, who else is gonna do it?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2855.027,"endTime":2857.427,"body":"Like, like who, who else are"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2855.027,"endTime":2857.427,"body":"you gonna hand that off to, to"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2857.427,"endTime":2860.037,"body":"be like, well, I don't, I don't"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2857.427,"endTime":2860.037,"body":"know if I'm the right person."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2860.037,"endTime":2862.607,"body":"I don't know if I'm that's a lot"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2860.037,"endTime":2862.607,"body":"to sit on my shoulders of the"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2862.612,"endTime":2865.308,"body":"leading the business and leading"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2862.612,"endTime":2865.308,"body":"the product and forging forward."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2865.313,"endTime":2866.627,"body":"Like, who else is gonna do it?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2866.627,"endTime":2867.407,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2867.807,"endTime":2872.007,"body":"Someone who doesn't know how a team's"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2867.807,"endTime":2872.007,"body":"constructed and, and, and is afraid"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2872.007,"endTime":2875.607,"body":"of failure or blames other people or"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2872.007,"endTime":2875.607,"body":"that that's who or is toxic, right?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2876.007,"endTime":2876.497,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2876.797,"endTime":2880.397,"body":"Well, I can't believe you guys"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2876.797,"endTime":2880.397,"body":"made this a good argument."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2880.787,"endTime":2882.147,"body":"What did you, what did"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2880.787,"endTime":2882.147,"body":"you learn today, Jessica?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2882.147,"endTime":2882.857,"body":"What'd you learn today?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2882.857,"endTime":2883.277,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2883.277,"endTime":2883.577,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2883.577,"endTime":2884.447,"body":"Let's wrap up."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2884.447,"endTime":2884.897,"body":"Let's see."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2884.897,"endTime":2888.307,"body":"The first topic was it's less"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2884.897,"endTime":2888.307,"body":"stressful as a scrum master."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2889.227,"endTime":2894.297,"body":"You both argued that it depends really on"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2889.227,"endTime":2894.297,"body":"where you're working and the expectations"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2894.297,"endTime":2896.127,"body":"there, and that's not always the case."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2896.127,"endTime":2896.427,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2897.327,"endTime":2899.907,"body":"And then the second one"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2897.327,"endTime":2899.907,"body":"was more money, right?"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2899.907,"endTime":2902.907,"body":"We, it wasn't very helpful"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2899.907,"endTime":2902.907,"body":"when we googled this."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2902.907,"endTime":2908.072,"body":"However, from both of your experience"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2902.907,"endTime":2908.072,"body":"it sounds like there is more money"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2908.072,"endTime":2909.172,"body":"on the product side, potentially."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2909.362,"endTime":2909.652,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2909.752,"endTime":2914.342,"body":"And then lastly, we talked about job"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2909.752,"endTime":2914.342,"body":"advancement, and that's more so like"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2914.342,"endTime":2915.662,"body":"we mentioned, a personal preference."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2916.062,"endTime":2916.212,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2916.217,"endTime":2919.152,"body":"You gotta really dig in to see"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2916.217,"endTime":2919.152,"body":"what, how you wanna spend your days."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2919.692,"endTime":2919.932,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2920.332,"endTime":2920.812,"body":"This is good."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2921.112,"endTime":2924.192,"body":"Well, I hope you learned"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2921.112,"endTime":2924.192,"body":"something I, I learned that"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2924.192,"endTime":2925.992,"body":"you're working on the wrong job."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2926.232,"endTime":2926.432,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2926.462,"endTime":2929.922,"body":"Well, oh man well this is like"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2926.462,"endTime":2929.922,"body":"hopefully o will be back next podcast."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2930.362,"endTime":2934.172,"body":"And I will not be like running"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2930.362,"endTime":2934.172,"body":"all over by myself unsupervised."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2934.172,"endTime":2936.092,"body":"I, I look forward to"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2934.172,"endTime":2936.092,"body":"being supervised again."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2936.752,"endTime":2937.982,"body":"It was a great, great podcast."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2937.982,"endTime":2938.702,"body":"Thank you Brian and Jessica."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2938.702,"endTime":2939.082,"body":"Thanks, Brian."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2939.272,"endTime":2940.142,"body":"I appreciate it."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2940.142,"endTime":2940.742,"body":"I appreciate it."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2940.747,"endTime":2942.362,"body":"Thank you for showing up and hanging out."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2942.422,"endTime":2946.157,"body":"And that's it I, I like to end"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2942.422,"endTime":2946.157,"body":"these awkwardly and I, I feel like"},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2946.157,"endTime":2947.237,"body":"I have a comp mission accomplished."},{"speaker":"with the engineering team at 11","startTime":2947.237,"endTime":2948.677,"body":"You definitely ended it awkwardly."}]}