{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.009,"endTime":3.872,"body":"This week I sat through a vendor"},{"startTime":0.009,"endTime":3.872,"body":"presentation and one of the things"},{"startTime":3.872,"endTime":7.499,"body":"the presenter said was, well"},{"startTime":3.872,"endTime":7.499,"body":"we can't all be agile purists."},{"startTime":8.099,"endTime":12.272,"body":"And I thought that was very, that was"},{"startTime":8.099,"endTime":12.272,"body":"a very interesting little derogatory"},{"startTime":12.436,"endTime":14.176,"body":"cutting remark on his behalf."},{"startTime":14.176,"endTime":16.603,"body":"Because the only other, other time"},{"startTime":14.176,"endTime":16.603,"body":"I've ever heard that in my career"},{"startTime":16.603,"endTime":20.557,"body":"was also a derogatory term that was"},{"startTime":16.603,"endTime":20.557,"body":"coming from a project manager saying,"},{"startTime":20.585,"endTime":24.821,"body":"oh, I've got these, all theses are"},{"startTime":20.585,"endTime":24.821,"body":"trying to tell us how to run our"},{"startTime":24.826,"endTime":26.566,"body":"projects, but they're all purists."},{"startTime":26.566,"endTime":27.903,"body":"They don't know how to"},{"startTime":26.566,"endTime":27.903,"body":"live in the real world."},{"startTime":27.907,"endTime":31.616,"body":"That was the context of that conversation,"},{"startTime":27.907,"endTime":31.616,"body":"and it's,  it's such a biting remark"},{"startTime":31.616,"endTime":35.653,"body":"that it just sticks out at me of like,"},{"startTime":31.616,"endTime":35.653,"body":"this person's going outta their way."},{"startTime":35.733,"endTime":38.461,"body":"They're not just like throwing trash"},{"startTime":35.733,"endTime":38.461,"body":"out of the window of their moving car."},{"startTime":38.465,"endTime":38.597,"body":"No."},{"startTime":38.788,"endTime":39.47,"body":"They're targeting it."},{"startTime":39.47,"endTime":39.606,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":39.606,"endTime":41.433,"body":"They're going out of their way"},{"startTime":39.606,"endTime":41.433,"body":"to drive through my neighborhood."},{"startTime":41.488,"endTime":41.542,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":41.542,"endTime":42.442,"body":"To throw it on my lawn."},{"startTime":42.442,"endTime":43.37,"body":"that's the equivalent."},{"startTime":43.37,"endTime":48.361,"body":"So if, if they're labeling agileists"},{"startTime":43.37,"endTime":48.361,"body":"as purists, I in turn wanna"},{"startTime":48.361,"endTime":49.888,"body":"say they're probably naysayers."},{"startTime":50.406,"endTime":50.897,"body":"Probably."},{"startTime":50.906,"endTime":51.17,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":51.388,"endTime":52.042,"body":"Naysayers, right?"},{"startTime":52.042,"endTime":56.215,"body":"These people either don't understand"},{"startTime":52.042,"endTime":56.215,"body":"Agile, don't like it, never used it."},{"startTime":56.87,"endTime":57.333,"body":"Et cetera."},{"startTime":57.333,"endTime":61.279,"body":"So they're basically saying, well you're"},{"startTime":57.333,"endTime":61.279,"body":"just the purist in the real world."},{"startTime":61.279,"endTime":62.424,"body":"It kind of works like this."},{"startTime":62.451,"endTime":62.67,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":62.751,"endTime":66.788,"body":"And I, I know we're gonna delve deeper"},{"startTime":62.751,"endTime":66.788,"body":"into some of these these topics in"},{"startTime":66.788,"endTime":70.633,"body":"this podcast, but oftentimes people"},{"startTime":66.788,"endTime":70.633,"body":"have not really worked in an agile way."},{"startTime":70.679,"endTime":72.715,"body":"they don't understand it"},{"startTime":70.679,"endTime":72.715,"body":"in, in layman's terms."},{"startTime":73.024,"endTime":73.788,"body":"They don't get it."},{"startTime":73.842,"endTime":74.061,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":74.142,"endTime":78.001,"body":"the great thing about that little"},{"startTime":74.142,"endTime":78.001,"body":"dismissive cut is it, it, it basically"},{"startTime":78.329,"endTime":81.192,"body":"doesn't try to learn anything that,"},{"startTime":78.329,"endTime":81.192,"body":"that was a, that was a, the, the"},{"startTime":81.192,"endTime":85.404,"body":"takeaway I got from this very large"},{"startTime":81.192,"endTime":85.404,"body":"company that sells vendor tools"},{"startTime":85.914,"endTime":88.177,"body":"to agile audiences or companies."},{"startTime":88.504,"endTime":90.95,"body":"So I was, it was actually a very"},{"startTime":88.504,"endTime":90.95,"body":"surprising I was gonna say, why would"},{"startTime":90.95,"endTime":93.841,"body":"they why would their representative"},{"startTime":90.95,"endTime":93.841,"body":"make a comment like that?"},{"startTime":94.832,"endTime":99.054,"body":"Well now that we've pointed it out,"},{"startTime":94.832,"endTime":99.054,"body":"you might hear this comment,  or some"},{"startTime":99.054,"endTime":102.004,"body":"kind of derivative of agile purist."},{"startTime":102.177,"endTime":103.868,"body":"Now that we're pointing it"},{"startTime":102.177,"endTime":103.868,"body":"out and making you aware."},{"startTime":104.659,"endTime":105.777,"body":"You won't be able to un unhear it."},{"startTime":105.804,"endTime":107.086,"body":"Are you an Agile purist?"},{"startTime":107.55,"endTime":111.641,"body":"You may not know you are, but stay tuned"},{"startTime":107.55,"endTime":111.641,"body":"through the duration of this podcast."},{"startTime":111.641,"endTime":112.35,"body":"You're gonna find out,"},{"startTime":112.932,"endTime":116.45,"body":"what I think I want to do is who might"},{"startTime":112.932,"endTime":116.45,"body":"you hear this from and then what,"},{"startTime":116.614,"endTime":118.004,"body":"what can you do when you hear it?"},{"startTime":118.059,"endTime":121.059,"body":"You know, what, what kind of strategies or"},{"startTime":118.059,"endTime":121.059,"body":"tactics can you employ when you hear it?"},{"startTime":121.441,"endTime":124.945,"body":"Because this, again, this is the"},{"startTime":121.441,"endTime":124.945,"body":"equivalent of, of me walking in as a"},{"startTime":124.945,"endTime":128.114,"body":"product manager and saying like, well,"},{"startTime":124.945,"endTime":128.114,"body":"did you miss this day in MBA class"},{"startTime":128.114,"endTime":130.404,"body":"when they were teaching strategy where"},{"startTime":128.114,"endTime":130.404,"body":"were all the real strategists at, I"},{"startTime":130.404,"endTime":133.65,"body":"mean, it's, it's such a dismissive"},{"startTime":130.404,"endTime":133.65,"body":"like it won't win you any points."},{"startTime":133.654,"endTime":139.259,"body":"It's such a, such a, Poorly contrived,"},{"startTime":133.654,"endTime":139.259,"body":"cutting remark that I can't, believe"},{"startTime":139.259,"endTime":140.568,"body":"anyone would actually use it."},{"startTime":140.986,"endTime":142.704,"body":"Let alone in like a global presentation."},{"startTime":142.709,"endTime":144.786,"body":"Anyway, I don't know which one of"},{"startTime":142.709,"endTime":144.786,"body":"these categories you wanna start with."},{"startTime":144.836,"endTime":145.518,"body":"Let's start at the top."},{"startTime":145.518,"endTime":146.745,"body":"Let's start with senior execs."},{"startTime":146.745,"endTime":147.754,"body":"Start at the top."},{"startTime":147.754,"endTime":147.809,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":147.809,"endTime":151.9,"body":"So the, so one, one audience you"},{"startTime":147.809,"endTime":151.9,"body":"might hear this from would be"},{"startTime":151.927,"endTime":155.2,"body":"senior executives and or management."},{"startTime":155.2,"endTime":159.154,"body":"I'm lumping management in with"},{"startTime":155.2,"endTime":159.154,"body":"senior executives, but let's, let's"},{"startTime":159.373,"endTime":162.4,"body":"go to the top before we get lost in"},{"startTime":159.373,"endTime":162.4,"body":"the quagmire of middle management."},{"startTime":163.041,"endTime":166.45,"body":"Typically though, when you hear this"},{"startTime":163.041,"endTime":166.45,"body":"from senior leadership, these are not"},{"startTime":166.45,"endTime":168.223,"body":"middle managers, but people above them."},{"startTime":168.414,"endTime":172.732,"body":"Yeah, it's probably because, or"},{"startTime":168.414,"endTime":172.732,"body":"likely because of one of two things."},{"startTime":172.732,"endTime":176.304,"body":"One is they really don't understand"},{"startTime":172.732,"endTime":176.304,"body":"Agile and they're kind of nervous about"},{"startTime":176.309,"endTime":179.823,"body":"it because it's all over the press they"},{"startTime":176.309,"endTime":179.823,"body":"kind of feel like they can't avoid it,"},{"startTime":180.041,"endTime":183.25,"body":"but here you are in their face talking"},{"startTime":180.041,"endTime":183.25,"body":"about these things in agile terms."},{"startTime":183.536,"endTime":185.145,"body":"And frankly they're nervous."},{"startTime":185.173,"endTime":187.327,"body":"Well, they're, well, are they"},{"startTime":185.173,"endTime":187.327,"body":"nervous or are they already"},{"startTime":187.327,"endTime":188.745,"body":"skeptics because it's new."},{"startTime":188.8,"endTime":189.236,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":189.7,"endTime":190.245,"body":"That too."},{"startTime":190.273,"endTime":193.573,"body":"I mean, look, they, they didn't get"},{"startTime":190.273,"endTime":193.573,"body":"there by being agile just because of"},{"startTime":193.573,"endTime":195.673,"body":"the the time factors involved here."},{"startTime":195.673,"endTime":195.891,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":195.891,"endTime":197.336,"body":"They probably worked"},{"startTime":195.891,"endTime":197.336,"body":"their way up the ladder."},{"startTime":197.364,"endTime":197.445,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":197.718,"endTime":201.795,"body":"And agile wasn't a thing, so this"},{"startTime":197.718,"endTime":201.795,"body":"is new to them and they kind of"},{"startTime":201.904,"endTime":205.695,"body":"are, it's like a, it's like a"},{"startTime":201.904,"endTime":205.695,"body":"wasp buzzing around their head."},{"startTime":205.75,"endTime":209.214,"body":"You know, it's there and it's annoying"},{"startTime":205.75,"endTime":209.214,"body":"and they just wanna sweat it away so"},{"startTime":209.486,"endTime":213.15,"body":"that's possibly why but at the same"},{"startTime":209.486,"endTime":213.15,"body":"time, I wanna say these are people"},{"startTime":213.154,"endTime":217.045,"body":"that have heard about, Agile and the"},{"startTime":213.154,"endTime":217.045,"body":"good things it it can bring mm-hmm."},{"startTime":217.264,"endTime":222.667,"body":"From their CIO peers or conferences or"},{"startTime":217.264,"endTime":222.667,"body":"whatever so they wanna give you some"},{"startTime":222.671,"endTime":226.494,"body":"airtime, but they've already made their"},{"startTime":222.671,"endTime":226.494,"body":"decision as to where they're coming from."},{"startTime":226.494,"endTime":226.739,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":226.821,"endTime":227.803,"body":"Prove it to me first."},{"startTime":227.803,"endTime":227.885,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":228.185,"endTime":229.848,"body":"Not, maybe this will work for us."},{"startTime":229.848,"endTime":230.421,"body":"Let's try it."},{"startTime":230.503,"endTime":232.767,"body":"They're not coming from that"},{"startTime":230.503,"endTime":232.767,"body":"perspective, at least initially."},{"startTime":233.58,"endTime":236.126,"body":"so that, that's what I feel"},{"startTime":233.58,"endTime":236.126,"body":"about senior execs you know,"},{"startTime":236.126,"endTime":238.717,"body":"labeling agileists as purists."},{"startTime":238.771,"endTime":242.007,"body":"I mean, if the reason is they're just"},{"startTime":238.771,"endTime":242.007,"body":"traditionalists and this is what they"},{"startTime":242.007,"endTime":245.571,"body":"learned and this is what has worked"},{"startTime":242.007,"endTime":245.571,"body":"for them all these years, right."},{"startTime":245.589,"endTime":246.953,"body":"In whatever market segment they're in."},{"startTime":247.353,"endTime":248.826,"body":"I could come along with that, you know?"},{"startTime":248.871,"endTime":252.644,"body":"I could believe that I mean,  the issue"},{"startTime":248.871,"endTime":252.644,"body":"with that being the, the, the main reason"},{"startTime":252.644,"endTime":258.044,"body":"is the market shifts over time and the"},{"startTime":252.644,"endTime":258.044,"body":"speed at which you need to deliver to"},{"startTime":258.044,"endTime":259.708,"body":"the market also increases over time."},{"startTime":260.089,"endTime":263.248,"body":"And if you're not doing anything while"},{"startTime":260.089,"endTime":263.248,"body":"the market changes around you you're"},{"startTime":263.248,"endTime":264.194,"body":"not, you're not a very good executive."},{"startTime":265.294,"endTime":266.03,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"startTime":266.03,"endTime":270.021,"body":"I mean I think, I think these people"},{"startTime":266.03,"endTime":270.021,"body":"didn't get taught anything to do"},{"startTime":270.026,"endTime":272.457,"body":"with Agile during their tenure."},{"startTime":272.73,"endTime":276.521,"body":"You know, if they were doing MBAs or"},{"startTime":272.73,"endTime":276.521,"body":"whatever it is, it was not included."},{"startTime":276.526,"endTime":278.73,"body":"I know it wasn't in my time"},{"startTime":276.526,"endTime":278.73,"body":"and I don't go back that far."},{"startTime":278.867,"endTime":279.003,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":279.167,"endTime":279.768,"body":"But far enough"},{"startTime":279.814,"endTime":282.323,"body":"you know, the other, the other side"},{"startTime":279.814,"endTime":282.323,"body":"of this I think of like managers, like"},{"startTime":282.327,"endTime":283.386,"body":"middle managers or something like that."},{"startTime":283.477,"endTime":287.214,"body":"The other side of this is the"},{"startTime":283.477,"endTime":287.214,"body":"pragmatist in them of, Hey, we just"},{"startTime":287.214,"endTime":290.704,"body":"gotta like something came up like,"},{"startTime":287.214,"endTime":290.704,"body":"throw away your sprint, or I don't"},{"startTime":290.709,"endTime":291.504,"body":"care about your time box, and."},{"startTime":292.123,"endTime":294.55,"body":"Just do whatever I'm asking"},{"startTime":292.123,"endTime":294.55,"body":"you to do is the top priority."},{"startTime":294.823,"endTime":295.068,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":295.068,"endTime":297.986,"body":"Cause that's, that's the pragmatic"},{"startTime":295.068,"endTime":297.986,"body":"thing to do is respond to change"},{"startTime":297.986,"endTime":299.65,"body":"in like your artificial time box."},{"startTime":299.65,"endTime":302.586,"body":"They view it as an artificial time"},{"startTime":299.65,"endTime":302.586,"body":"box they don't really care about"},{"startTime":302.586,"endTime":303.595,"body":"your rules and stuff like that."},{"startTime":303.623,"endTime":306.404,"body":"That that's, that's the, also the,"},{"startTime":303.623,"endTime":306.404,"body":"the other side that a, a manager"},{"startTime":306.65,"endTime":308.478,"body":"would look at this like, I agree."},{"startTime":308.75,"endTime":310.986,"body":"I, I think the managers"},{"startTime":308.75,"endTime":310.986,"body":"have become managers."},{"startTime":311.532,"endTime":312.704,"body":"Managing in that way, right?"},{"startTime":312.709,"endTime":312.723,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":312.814,"endTime":314.486,"body":"So do as I say, okay, stop."},{"startTime":314.486,"endTime":315.932,"body":"Now do as I say now, right?"},{"startTime":315.932,"endTime":317.85,"body":"Because that's the new priority."},{"startTime":317.904,"endTime":322.304,"body":"Mm-hmm and, and then in a way they could"},{"startTime":317.904,"endTime":322.304,"body":"subvert your agile, so to speak and say,"},{"startTime":322.358,"endTime":323.749,"body":"we're responding to change in this way."},{"startTime":323.749,"endTime":323.885,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":324.104,"endTime":326.199,"body":"I, I am telling you what"},{"startTime":324.104,"endTime":326.199,"body":"the change is ,yeah."},{"startTime":326.299,"endTime":329.949,"body":"Yeah, I hadn't thought of that in our"},{"startTime":326.299,"endTime":329.949,"body":"discussion, but yeah, if you, if they"},{"startTime":329.949,"endTime":333.694,"body":"actually do have a little bit of knowledge"},{"startTime":329.949,"endTime":333.694,"body":"on the subject they actually could do a"},{"startTime":333.694,"endTime":335.631,"body":"lot of damage by using the same terms."},{"startTime":336.135,"endTime":339.69,"body":"Speaking the same language, but actually"},{"startTime":336.135,"endTime":339.69,"body":"undermining the whole time because"},{"startTime":339.744,"endTime":340.781,"body":"maybe they never believed in it."},{"startTime":340.781,"endTime":344.299,"body":"Maybe we were skeptical from the beginning"},{"startTime":340.781,"endTime":344.299,"body":"and and they never believed in it."},{"startTime":344.354,"endTime":346.235,"body":"I mean, you get some"},{"startTime":344.354,"endTime":346.235,"body":"of those smells right."},{"startTime":346.235,"endTime":350.926,"body":"So you know when that's happening, when"},{"startTime":346.235,"endTime":350.926,"body":"the same managers or, or even execs"},{"startTime":350.926,"endTime":354.826,"body":"for that matter are also insisting"},{"startTime":350.926,"endTime":354.826,"body":"upon delivery by a certain date that"},{"startTime":354.826,"endTime":358.008,"body":"they invented out of thin air, you"},{"startTime":354.826,"endTime":358.008,"body":"know they're demanding Gantt charts."},{"startTime":358.026,"endTime":359.063,"body":"I mean, all of those smells."},{"startTime":359.226,"endTime":362.117,"body":"So if you get some of those, you"},{"startTime":359.226,"endTime":362.117,"body":"kind of know right, where it's, where"},{"startTime":362.117,"endTime":365.526,"body":"they're coming from and then when you"},{"startTime":362.117,"endTime":365.526,"body":"come in and, and spout the benefits"},{"startTime":365.526,"endTime":368.945,"body":"of working in an agile way and, and"},{"startTime":365.526,"endTime":368.945,"body":"using the inspect and adapt, et cetera."},{"startTime":369.872,"endTime":371.754,"body":"Yeah, they're gonna label you as a purist."},{"startTime":371.754,"endTime":371.808,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":371.808,"endTime":373.772,"body":"Because they say, well,"},{"startTime":371.808,"endTime":373.772,"body":"this is all theory, right?"},{"startTime":373.772,"endTime":373.854,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":374.154,"endTime":377.099,"body":"I I have never done this this"},{"startTime":374.154,"endTime":377.099,"body":"way and I've been successful."},{"startTime":377.181,"endTime":377.263,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":377.267,"endTime":377.59,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":377.835,"endTime":380.972,"body":"So you kind of have to deal with"},{"startTime":377.835,"endTime":380.972,"body":"that because they're not wrong."},{"startTime":381.217,"endTime":381.49,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":381.49,"endTime":382.663,"body":"They haven't dealt with it that way."},{"startTime":382.663,"endTime":383.726,"body":"They're right in that part."},{"startTime":383.781,"endTime":385.69,"body":"And they've been successful"},{"startTime":383.781,"endTime":385.69,"body":"because they are where they are."},{"startTime":385.778,"endTime":388.069,"body":"I mean you know, like"},{"startTime":385.778,"endTime":388.069,"body":"I was with you right?"},{"startTime":388.069,"endTime":390.469,"body":"Until the very last sentence of"},{"startTime":388.069,"endTime":390.469,"body":"they're successful because they"},{"startTime":390.469,"endTime":393.187,"body":"are in the position that they"},{"startTime":390.469,"endTime":393.187,"body":"are, that's not necessarily true."},{"startTime":393.187,"endTime":396.132,"body":"Like sometimes a business can be"},{"startTime":393.187,"endTime":396.132,"body":"successful because they happen"},{"startTime":396.132,"endTime":398.56,"body":"to find themselves in a market"},{"startTime":396.132,"endTime":398.56,"body":"segment that's blowing up."},{"startTime":398.564,"endTime":401.45,"body":"Or they're in a particular, like"},{"startTime":398.564,"endTime":401.45,"body":"they were first to market in"},{"startTime":401.45,"endTime":403.032,"body":"that, in that segment or whatever."},{"startTime":403.278,"endTime":406.741,"body":"Like they just, just showing up in"},{"startTime":403.278,"endTime":406.741,"body":"the right place at the right time."},{"startTime":407.56,"endTime":409.85,"body":"Could make you successful and it"},{"startTime":407.56,"endTime":409.85,"body":"might not have anything to do with"},{"startTime":409.85,"endTime":411.432,"body":"good or bad management, possibly."},{"startTime":411.55,"endTime":417.05,"body":"However good management will take"},{"startTime":411.55,"endTime":417.05,"body":"you much for further, but than"},{"startTime":417.05,"endTime":418.305,"body":"just happens to answer a lot."},{"startTime":418.305,"endTime":418.496,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":418.496,"endTime":418.65,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":418.987,"endTime":419.15,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":419.155,"endTime":423.487,"body":"They could, they could be lucky"},{"startTime":419.155,"endTime":423.487,"body":"unlikely that a a, a senior exec"},{"startTime":423.678,"endTime":427.66,"body":"just got there by being lucky, like"},{"startTime":423.678,"endTime":427.66,"body":"throughout their career, probably."},{"startTime":427.664,"endTime":430.969,"body":"Mm-hmm so they have a certain way of"},{"startTime":427.664,"endTime":430.969,"body":"operating and that's what worked for"},{"startTime":430.973,"endTime":432.714,"body":"them and has worked for them thus far."},{"startTime":433.069,"endTime":435.032,"body":"You're bringing a new paradigm."},{"startTime":435.141,"endTime":435.414,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":435.469,"endTime":439.396,"body":"And just because it's new and they,"},{"startTime":435.469,"endTime":439.396,"body":"they haven't experienced it before,"},{"startTime":439.696,"endTime":441.178,"body":"they're entitled to be a skeptic."},{"startTime":441.441,"endTime":441.878,"body":"I'd say."},{"startTime":442.032,"endTime":447.396,"body":"let's move over to suspect number one"},{"startTime":442.032,"endTime":447.396,"body":"in the skeptic lineup, project managers."},{"startTime":448.278,"endTime":452.587,"body":"The first time I ever heard, heard and"},{"startTime":448.278,"endTime":452.587,"body":"or refer was referred to as an agile"},{"startTime":452.587,"endTime":457.832,"body":"purist was from a project manager who"},{"startTime":452.587,"endTime":457.832,"body":"was frustrated with quote all these agile"},{"startTime":457.832,"endTime":461.76,"body":"people and leadership asking for all these"},{"startTime":457.832,"endTime":461.76,"body":"agile things in all these agile ways."},{"startTime":461.941,"endTime":464.132,"body":"And they just wanted the"},{"startTime":461.941,"endTime":464.132,"body":"world to slow down and."},{"startTime":464.637,"endTime":468.546,"body":"Go back to the way it was with the nice"},{"startTime":464.637,"endTime":468.546,"body":"Gantt charts and the not doing anything,"},{"startTime":468.546,"endTime":470.046,"body":"not showing a customer for six months."},{"startTime":470.046,"endTime":471.955,"body":"And well, there's a lot"},{"startTime":470.046,"endTime":471.955,"body":"of comfort in that, right?"},{"startTime":471.955,"endTime":476.264,"body":"As somebody who has actually fallen"},{"startTime":471.955,"endTime":476.264,"body":"foul of that, that paradigm and have"},{"startTime":476.264,"endTime":479.819,"body":"recovered as a project manager, I can"},{"startTime":476.264,"endTime":479.819,"body":"tell you, you create a plan and, and"},{"startTime":479.873,"endTime":483.41,"body":"you float that out there and you say,"},{"startTime":479.873,"endTime":483.41,"body":"this is it, thou shalt work in this way."},{"startTime":483.846,"endTime":486.382,"body":"And there's comfort in that because"},{"startTime":483.846,"endTime":486.382,"body":"all you're doing after that is"},{"startTime":486.382,"endTime":488.182,"body":"simply, Asking people, right."},{"startTime":488.182,"endTime":489.055,"body":"Where are we at with this?"},{"startTime":489.055,"endTime":489.137,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":489.355,"endTime":490.037,"body":"When are we gonna be done?"},{"startTime":490.691,"endTime":495.137,"body":"So I can kind of see that project"},{"startTime":490.691,"endTime":495.137,"body":"managers getting nervy about agile"},{"startTime":495.137,"endTime":498.764,"body":"ways of working and letting teams"},{"startTime":495.137,"endTime":498.764,"body":"discover things as they go along."},{"startTime":499.5,"endTime":503.373,"body":"You know, they're nervous because"},{"startTime":499.5,"endTime":503.373,"body":"they can't really reliably back that"},{"startTime":503.373,"endTime":504.746,"body":"date that they came up with, right."},{"startTime":504.946,"endTime":507.182,"body":"Or, or those milestones so definitely."},{"startTime":507.814,"endTime":510.869,"body":"Can understand why project managers"},{"startTime":507.814,"endTime":510.869,"body":"feel this way, especially those"},{"startTime":510.869,"endTime":514.687,"body":"project managers that have no"},{"startTime":510.869,"endTime":514.687,"body":"introduction to Agile, right?"},{"startTime":514.687,"endTime":514.769,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":514.987,"endTime":517.278,"body":"They, they're just being told here, this"},{"startTime":514.987,"endTime":517.278,"body":"is, this is where we're working now."},{"startTime":517.496,"endTime":521.4,"body":"Yeah and, and that's probably something"},{"startTime":517.496,"endTime":521.4,"body":"that can be avoided, in fact, by giving"},{"startTime":521.4,"endTime":525.291,"body":"them an introduction, bringing them"},{"startTime":521.4,"endTime":525.291,"body":"into the world of, as opposed to just"},{"startTime":525.291,"endTime":527.619,"body":"going and saying put all that aside."},{"startTime":527.619,"endTime":528.928,"body":"We're gonna work in this way suddenly"},{"startTime":529.337,"endTime":532.91,"body":"I could totally see the being"},{"startTime":529.337,"endTime":532.91,"body":"resistant to change from the"},{"startTime":532.91,"endTime":536.037,"body":"perspective of it's not just project"},{"startTime":532.91,"endTime":536.037,"body":"managers, actually product managers."},{"startTime":536.128,"endTime":539.373,"body":"I don't know if we'll get into that"},{"startTime":536.128,"endTime":539.373,"body":"topic of their, I've seen a lot"},{"startTime":539.378,"endTime":542.291,"body":"of product managers on LinkedIn"},{"startTime":539.378,"endTime":542.291,"body":"saying like, why do I need agile?"},{"startTime":542.864,"endTime":545.337,"body":"What, what, what does"},{"startTime":542.864,"endTime":545.337,"body":"Agile have to do for me?"},{"startTime":545.337,"endTime":548.491,"body":"Or, or, or I saw a video that I"},{"startTime":545.337,"endTime":548.491,"body":"sent that was Um, introduction"},{"startTime":548.491,"endTime":550.482,"body":"to Agile for product managers."},{"startTime":550.482,"endTime":553.1,"body":"Like what, what, what, what does a,"},{"startTime":550.482,"endTime":553.1,"body":"which is funny cuz all these people"},{"startTime":553.1,"endTime":556.073,"body":"that are complaining like that, like"},{"startTime":553.1,"endTime":556.073,"body":"they're, they have the benefit of being"},{"startTime":556.073,"endTime":559.946,"body":"with these Silicon Valley companies that"},{"startTime":556.073,"endTime":559.946,"body":"you would, you don't need agile because"},{"startTime":559.946,"endTime":564.091,"body":"their companies are organized in the"},{"startTime":559.946,"endTime":564.091,"body":"most agile way any company's ever been."},{"startTime":564.091,"endTime":564.6,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":564.837,"endTime":567.764,"body":"All their teams are decentralized,"},{"startTime":564.837,"endTime":567.764,"body":"broken down in a tiny and, and the"},{"startTime":567.764,"endTime":571.446,"body":"funny thing is like, they can't"},{"startTime":567.764,"endTime":571.446,"body":"even, they can't even understand."},{"startTime":571.787,"endTime":576.65,"body":"That they're from such a place of"},{"startTime":571.787,"endTime":576.65,"body":"privilege of not having to fight the"},{"startTime":576.65,"endTime":577.85,"body":"fights that all these people are fighting."},{"startTime":578.378,"endTime":579.137,"body":"I don't understand."},{"startTime":579.273,"endTime":580.091,"body":"There's no problems."},{"startTime":580.091,"endTime":580.882,"body":"Like, I don't get it."},{"startTime":580.991,"endTime":581.264,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":581.264,"endTime":582.11,"body":"They don't believe the mirror."},{"startTime":582.11,"endTime":583.119,"body":"I mean, you, you're right."},{"startTime":583.119,"endTime":584.037,"body":"They they're already there."},{"startTime":584.291,"endTime":586.21,"body":"Their org structures are aligned properly."},{"startTime":586.21,"endTime":586.21,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":586.369,"endTime":588.01,"body":"The com structures are aligned properly."},{"startTime":588.037,"endTime":588.364,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":588.691,"endTime":590.928,"body":"And so they haven't"},{"startTime":588.691,"endTime":590.928,"body":"seen how bad it can be."},{"startTime":591.746,"endTime":594.991,"body":"Possibly I, you know how bad it"},{"startTime":591.746,"endTime":594.991,"body":"normally is, I would say Yeah."},{"startTime":595.319,"endTime":596.955,"body":"How bad it really is on the other side."},{"startTime":596.955,"endTime":597.637,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":597.882,"endTime":599.41,"body":"So they just say, why do we need agile?"},{"startTime":599.41,"endTime":600.828,"body":"They don't realize that"},{"startTime":599.41,"endTime":600.828,"body":"they already have it."},{"startTime":600.832,"endTime":601.046,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":601.046,"endTime":601.264,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":601.269,"endTime":601.546,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":601.728,"endTime":601.837,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":602.219,"endTime":603.855,"body":"That's what I mean when I say"},{"startTime":602.219,"endTime":603.855,"body":"they don't believe the mirror."},{"startTime":603.91,"endTime":603.964,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":603.964,"endTime":605.873,"body":"Outside, outside the walls of the garden."},{"startTime":605.955,"endTime":606.8,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"startTime":606.8,"endTime":607.455,"body":"They've never been out there."},{"startTime":607.455,"endTime":608.11,"body":"They don't know how it is."},{"startTime":608.9,"endTime":609.2,"body":"Yeah"},{"startTime":609.373,"endTime":610.355,"body":"how do you deal with that though?"},{"startTime":610.355,"endTime":613.596,"body":"Like, and those people that say that"},{"startTime":610.355,"endTime":613.596,"body":"how, how do you, how do you even"},{"startTime":613.596,"endTime":616.541,"body":"have a conversation to say, really"},{"startTime":613.596,"endTime":616.541,"body":"it is pretty bad on the other side?"},{"startTime":616.95,"endTime":618.341,"body":"That's, I mean, that's a good question."},{"startTime":618.341,"endTime":619.569,"body":"Like how, how, what?"},{"startTime":619.573,"endTime":621.75,"body":"Like when someone's like, whoa,"},{"startTime":619.573,"endTime":621.75,"body":"I don't understand what Agile"},{"startTime":621.75,"endTime":622.85,"body":"benefits me as a product manager."},{"startTime":623.687,"endTime":627.873,"body":"I mean, as soon as I like, Got done"},{"startTime":623.687,"endTime":627.873,"body":"being taken back by that question."},{"startTime":627.946,"endTime":630.346,"body":"And, and I, I regained my footing."},{"startTime":630.782,"endTime":633.946,"body":"I think, I think the question I would"},{"startTime":630.782,"endTime":633.946,"body":"ask them, like right off the bat would"},{"startTime":633.946,"endTime":636.173,"body":"be what, what do you think Agile is?"},{"startTime":636.882,"endTime":637.891,"body":"Like, what, what, what do you think?"},{"startTime":637.891,"endTime":640.891,"body":"You know what, what I mean, it's,"},{"startTime":637.891,"endTime":640.891,"body":"it's the same questions that I that to"},{"startTime":640.891,"endTime":642.31,"body":"apply to the project manager as well."},{"startTime":642.31,"endTime":642.828,"body":"It's like, well, what?"},{"startTime":643.046,"endTime":644.137,"body":"Oh, agile doesn't work for me."},{"startTime":644.219,"endTime":644.464,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":644.464,"endTime":645.791,"body":"That's agile doesn't work"},{"startTime":644.464,"endTime":645.791,"body":"here, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":645.791,"endTime":645.973,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":646.05,"endTime":646.973,"body":"Like, oh, you're a purist."},{"startTime":646.978,"endTime":650.055,"body":"You wanna do a you wanna do pure"},{"startTime":646.978,"endTime":650.055,"body":"agile, whatever Pure Agile even means."},{"startTime":650.11,"endTime":650.646,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":650.955,"endTime":653.01,"body":"Like what you got a problem"},{"startTime":650.955,"endTime":653.01,"body":"with the principles."},{"startTime":653.669,"endTime":657.523,"body":"Or the values, like really like, tell"},{"startTime":653.669,"endTime":657.523,"body":"me which principle, which value I, but"},{"startTime":657.523,"endTime":660.687,"body":"if I'm, if I'm gonna actually seriously"},{"startTime":657.523,"endTime":660.687,"body":"engage somebody and, and not just be"},{"startTime":660.796,"endTime":663.419,"body":"looking like I'm trying to dunk on"},{"startTime":660.796,"endTime":663.419,"body":"them I would ask them like, well, what"},{"startTime":663.419,"endTime":668.82,"body":"specific principles or practices that"},{"startTime":663.419,"endTime":668.82,"body":"you think are agile practices are, do"},{"startTime":668.982,"endTime":673.169,"body":"you have an issue with well I think"},{"startTime":668.982,"endTime":673.169,"body":"sometimes though people that are spouting"},{"startTime":673.169,"endTime":676.396,"body":"these things, I guess they don't really"},{"startTime":673.169,"endTime":676.396,"body":"know the agile principles, right?"},{"startTime":676.723,"endTime":681.637,"body":"So maybe what's in order for really"},{"startTime":676.723,"endTime":681.637,"body":"all of the above senior execs, middle"},{"startTime":681.637,"endTime":685.4,"body":"management, project managers, and,"},{"startTime":681.637,"endTime":685.4,"body":"and maybe some other roles that we're,"},{"startTime":685.405,"endTime":689.491,"body":"we're gonna get into in a minute just"},{"startTime":685.405,"endTime":689.491,"body":"explain to them what is Agile, right?"},{"startTime":689.519,"endTime":689.6,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":689.819,"endTime":693.419,"body":"Why, what and the why behind the"},{"startTime":689.819,"endTime":693.419,"body":"ways of working in Agile way."},{"startTime":693.691,"endTime":696.982,"body":"Once you explain that to them"},{"startTime":693.691,"endTime":696.982,"body":"specifically, the Uh, the, the product"},{"startTime":696.982,"endTime":699.464,"body":"folks, they should understand that"},{"startTime":696.982,"endTime":699.464,"body":"they're already doing it that way."},{"startTime":699.464,"endTime":699.573,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":699.578,"endTime":703.191,"body":"The, the last persona we talked"},{"startTime":699.578,"endTime":703.191,"body":"about people in in companies that are"},{"startTime":703.191,"endTime":704.91,"body":"already aligned in an agile way, right?"},{"startTime":705.319,"endTime":707.746,"body":"They should understand that,"},{"startTime":705.319,"endTime":707.746,"body":"that if you weren't doing that,"},{"startTime":707.746,"endTime":708.837,"body":"what would be the alternative?"},{"startTime":708.864,"endTime":709.0,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":709.273,"endTime":712.464,"body":"So I think  some knowledge sharing"},{"startTime":709.273,"endTime":712.464,"body":"is in order here for us to kind"},{"startTime":712.464,"endTime":714.1,"body":"of work with these folks, right?"},{"startTime":714.382,"endTime":717.328,"body":"it it's no good just saying,"},{"startTime":714.382,"endTime":717.328,"body":"well, you're calling me a purist,"},{"startTime":717.328,"endTime":718.146,"body":"but you don't really know."},{"startTime":718.146,"endTime":718.746,"body":"Well, that's true."},{"startTime":718.746,"endTime":721.2,"body":"They don't know, but what,"},{"startTime":718.746,"endTime":721.2,"body":"what do we do going forward?"},{"startTime":721.428,"endTime":724.21,"body":"So I think that's, that's probably"},{"startTime":721.428,"endTime":724.21,"body":"a good thing to have some induction"},{"startTime":724.255,"endTime":725.428,"body":"into Agile for these guys."},{"startTime":725.473,"endTime":729.773,"body":"Now that I'm thinking clearly about"},{"startTime":725.473,"endTime":729.773,"body":"this, the first question that probably"},{"startTime":730.169,"endTime":734.86,"body":"you might wanna think about engaging"},{"startTime":730.169,"endTime":734.86,"body":"with is just a, a general opening,"},{"startTime":734.86,"endTime":737.505,"body":"the opening the door and letting"},{"startTime":734.86,"endTime":737.505,"body":"them say whatever they want to say."},{"startTime":737.505,"endTime":740.26,"body":"You know what, can you, can"},{"startTime":737.505,"endTime":740.26,"body":"you elaborate what you mean"},{"startTime":740.369,"endTime":742.114,"body":"by purist when you say purist?"},{"startTime":742.51,"endTime":743.3,"body":"What do you mean by that?"},{"startTime":743.355,"endTime":743.573,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":743.719,"endTime":746.71,"body":"You know, in the context of Agile"},{"startTime":743.719,"endTime":746.71,"body":"software development, I would, I would"},{"startTime":746.71,"endTime":749.764,"body":"boil it all the way back to what the"},{"startTime":746.71,"endTime":749.764,"body":"manifesto says, like the manifesto"},{"startTime":749.769,"endTime":750.637,"body":"for agile software development."},{"startTime":750.773,"endTime":752.491,"body":"You know, in the context of"},{"startTime":750.773,"endTime":752.491,"body":"agile software development,"},{"startTime":752.496,"endTime":754.237,"body":"what do you, what is a purist?"},{"startTime":754.237,"endTime":755.519,"body":"What, what, what does that mean to you?"},{"startTime":756.091,"endTime":757.837,"body":"You know, just an open-ended question."},{"startTime":758.055,"endTime":761.6,"body":"Let 'em start throwing out all"},{"startTime":758.055,"endTime":761.6,"body":"their painful stories and memories."},{"startTime":761.6,"endTime":766.428,"body":"You know, I, I think that's great because"},{"startTime":761.6,"endTime":766.428,"body":"what you'll find, I suspect, is they're"},{"startTime":766.432,"endTime":767.791,"body":"grounded in some things that aren't."},{"startTime":768.282,"endTime":768.773,"body":"Accurate."},{"startTime":768.773,"endTime":769.019,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":769.046,"endTime":771.773,"body":"You know, they may say, well, we"},{"startTime":769.046,"endTime":771.773,"body":"must always work in two weekend"},{"startTime":771.773,"endTime":773.219,"body":"increments, and that that's not right."},{"startTime":773.223,"endTime":773.346,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":773.546,"endTime":777.228,"body":"They may say that where everybody"},{"startTime":773.546,"endTime":777.228,"body":"knows that's, that's not necessarily"},{"startTime":777.232,"endTime":778.482,"body":"what the scrum guide is saying."},{"startTime":778.482,"endTime":780.173,"body":"They might start telling"},{"startTime":778.482,"endTime":780.173,"body":"me about their PI planning."},{"startTime":780.2,"endTime":780.555,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":780.56,"endTime":781.51,"body":"They might do that too."},{"startTime":781.514,"endTime":782.3,"body":"They might say that."},{"startTime":782.305,"endTime":782.519,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":782.519,"endTime":786.219,"body":"So yeah, I think that's a great way to"},{"startTime":782.519,"endTime":786.219,"body":"open is, is just engage in a dialogue and"},{"startTime":786.219,"endTime":788.1,"body":"say, what do you think a purist really is?"},{"startTime":788.1,"endTime":789.055,"body":"Why, why would you say that?"},{"startTime":789.055,"endTime":790.173,"body":"Which of these principles."},{"startTime":790.56,"endTime":794.514,"body":"Make you think it's purism that we're"},{"startTime":790.56,"endTime":794.514,"body":"really, we're, we're going with but you"},{"startTime":794.519,"endTime":797.623,"body":"know, I still stand by the fact that"},{"startTime":794.519,"endTime":797.623,"body":"people, that when they say that, well,"},{"startTime":797.623,"endTime":799.823,"body":"not only have they never, obviously"},{"startTime":797.623,"endTime":799.823,"body":"they've never worked in an Agile"},{"startTime":799.823,"endTime":801.769,"body":"way, but, or, or, or not recently."},{"startTime":801.96,"endTime":803.65,"body":"Uh, but they don't understand what it is."},{"startTime":803.705,"endTime":803.76,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":803.76,"endTime":805.205,"body":"So let's make 'em understand what it is."},{"startTime":805.21,"endTime":805.396,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":806.078,"endTime":807.496,"body":"I wonder if there's a good."},{"startTime":808.041,"endTime":810.933,"body":"Like, just like 10 minute"},{"startTime":808.041,"endTime":810.933,"body":"what is agile stuff?"},{"startTime":810.938,"endTime":814.023,"body":"There is like the agile manifesto"},{"startTime":810.938,"endTime":814.023,"body":"explained, kind of well there, there"},{"startTime":814.214,"endTime":815.769,"body":"there's are a couple of things, right?"},{"startTime":815.773,"endTime":817.578,"body":"So I, I think if you look at."},{"startTime":817.878,"endTime":820.687,"body":"Things like lower level, if you look"},{"startTime":817.878,"endTime":820.687,"body":"at what is Scrum, things like that,"},{"startTime":820.96,"endTime":824.996,"body":"you've got those beautiful animated"},{"startTime":820.96,"endTime":824.996,"body":"videos that Hendrick Knidberg has done."},{"startTime":824.996,"endTime":829.823,"body":"Yeah but recently I came across another"},{"startTime":824.996,"endTime":829.823,"body":"set which it will come to me in a minute,"},{"startTime":829.823,"endTime":833.678,"body":"but they were fantastic when it comes"},{"startTime":829.823,"endTime":833.678,"body":"to looking at the agile principles."},{"startTime":834.196,"endTime":834.387,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":834.441,"endTime":834.905,"body":"And."},{"startTime":835.191,"endTime":838.641,"body":"What people think they mean"},{"startTime":835.191,"endTime":838.641,"body":"versus what they really mean."},{"startTime":838.641,"endTime":838.696,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":838.696,"endTime":842.078,"body":"So people's distortions of these"},{"startTime":838.696,"endTime":842.078,"body":"principles, it's by it's by"},{"startTime":842.078,"endTime":847.032,"body":"Sjord Nyland and he created this,"},{"startTime":842.078,"endTime":847.032,"body":"this pdf called Uncommon Sense."},{"startTime":847.087,"endTime":852.41,"body":"Mm-hmm he goes through observations,"},{"startTime":847.087,"endTime":852.41,"body":"what principles they aligned to, and"},{"startTime":852.41,"endTime":853.991,"body":"why people think what they think."},{"startTime":854.073,"endTime":854.1,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":854.428,"endTime":855.9,"body":"You know, it's fantastic."},{"startTime":855.9,"endTime":856.882,"body":"I strongly recommend it."},{"startTime":857.152,"endTime":860.188,"body":"I went through it with one of"},{"startTime":857.152,"endTime":860.188,"body":"my teams this morning and we"},{"startTime":860.188,"endTime":862.752,"body":"didn't finish in the time box we"},{"startTime":860.188,"endTime":862.752,"body":"had, so we're gonna revisit it."},{"startTime":862.752,"endTime":865.207,"body":"But it, it's awesome the way he does that."},{"startTime":865.207,"endTime":868.97,"body":"He says, when a manager believes"},{"startTime":865.207,"endTime":868.97,"body":"X, y, z, what really happens is,"},{"startTime":869.107,"endTime":870.17,"body":"you know these things, right?"},{"startTime":870.307,"endTime":873.352,"body":"And has these unintended consequences."},{"startTime":873.607,"endTime":876.179,"body":"So I think that's important too,"},{"startTime":873.607,"endTime":876.179,"body":"because what we're not doing is,"},{"startTime":876.179,"endTime":877.57,"body":"is, is playing the blame game here."},{"startTime":877.57,"endTime":880.134,"body":"We're not saying, well, you are"},{"startTime":877.57,"endTime":880.134,"body":"saying this because you want the."},{"startTime":880.461,"endTime":881.034,"body":"We're not doing that."},{"startTime":881.034,"endTime":884.688,"body":"We're simply saying, if you"},{"startTime":881.034,"endTime":884.688,"body":"believe something, truly, yeah."},{"startTime":884.961,"endTime":889.434,"body":"Then if you are enacting on those"},{"startTime":884.961,"endTime":889.434,"body":"principles that you believe it"},{"startTime":889.434,"endTime":891.07,"body":"has these unintended consequences."},{"startTime":891.579,"endTime":892.643,"body":"That they're not really."},{"startTime":893.407,"endTime":894.388,"body":"They're not expected to know."},{"startTime":894.393,"endTime":894.561,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":894.638,"endTime":897.643,"body":"Uh they're not a ans in any shape really."},{"startTime":897.861,"endTime":898.188,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":898.488,"endTime":902.197,"body":"They're certainly not somebody who's seen"},{"startTime":898.488,"endTime":902.197,"body":"various teams at various organizations."},{"startTime":902.197,"endTime":902.252,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":902.257,"endTime":905.825,"body":"So they don't have the experience so"},{"startTime":902.257,"endTime":905.825,"body":"we can call these out and then what"},{"startTime":905.988,"endTime":909.888,"body":"Sue does is he says, well, so that"},{"startTime":905.988,"endTime":909.888,"body":"behavior aligns to this principle."},{"startTime":909.916,"endTime":910.052,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":910.243,"endTime":914.266,"body":"And therefore, If we do it that way,"},{"startTime":910.243,"endTime":914.266,"body":"I think we have a better chance of"},{"startTime":914.266,"endTime":916.938,"body":"making sure that people understand"},{"startTime":914.266,"endTime":916.938,"body":"what the principles really mean."},{"startTime":917.211,"endTime":920.647,"body":"Cuz they're not necessarily"},{"startTime":917.211,"endTime":920.647,"body":"literal in that sense, right?"},{"startTime":920.647,"endTime":922.42,"body":"Mm-hmm so yeah, I like that."},{"startTime":922.42,"endTime":925.947,"body":"I like the way, the way that's,"},{"startTime":922.42,"endTime":925.947,"body":"that's done it's some intended"},{"startTime":925.952,"endTime":929.247,"body":"unintended consequences might be"},{"startTime":925.952,"endTime":929.247,"body":"things like missing market windows."},{"startTime":929.611,"endTime":933.493,"body":"Mm-hmm or long time to market because"},{"startTime":929.611,"endTime":933.493,"body":"we're not going in these time boxes"},{"startTime":933.802,"endTime":938.766,"body":"or things like ha ending up with in"},{"startTime":933.802,"endTime":938.766,"body":"feature fog or over-engineered product."},{"startTime":938.793,"endTime":938.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":938.875,"endTime":939.475,"body":"Things like that."},{"startTime":939.475,"endTime":939.557,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":939.775,"endTime":942.393,"body":"Which people who have not"},{"startTime":939.775,"endTime":942.393,"body":"worked in an agile way, product"},{"startTime":942.393,"endTime":943.638,"body":"folks, they don't know that."},{"startTime":943.884,"endTime":944.075,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":944.129,"endTime":944.429,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":944.566,"endTime":946.447,"body":"They don't know even when"},{"startTime":944.566,"endTime":946.447,"body":"they're going through that."},{"startTime":946.911,"endTime":949.575,"body":"So you know, I think that's,"},{"startTime":946.911,"endTime":949.575,"body":"that's really where we wanna."},{"startTime":950.093,"endTime":951.538,"body":"Kind of end up yeah."},{"startTime":951.815,"endTime":955.578,"body":"let's cut over to the other category"},{"startTime":951.815,"endTime":955.578,"body":"that I have observed someone actually"},{"startTime":955.578,"endTime":960.597,"body":"using this term, which is external"},{"startTime":955.578,"endTime":960.597,"body":"consultants slash software vendors."},{"startTime":961.192,"endTime":965.219,"body":"The person I heard was worked for a very"},{"startTime":961.192,"endTime":965.219,"body":"large company, a very large corporation"},{"startTime":965.219,"endTime":967.592,"body":"that, that sells a very well known tool."},{"startTime":969.147,"endTime":972.592,"body":"Tolus actually organizations, that"},{"startTime":969.147,"endTime":972.592,"body":"individual was one that, that was"},{"startTime":972.592,"endTime":977.192,"body":"said, oh, we're creating this, but you"},{"startTime":972.592,"endTime":977.192,"body":"know, we can't all be agile purists."},{"startTime":977.192,"endTime":977.656,"body":"I can't remember."},{"startTime":977.656,"endTime":978.474,"body":"I wish I could remember."},{"startTime":978.628,"endTime":981.547,"body":"I, I don't even know if I could find"},{"startTime":978.628,"endTime":981.547,"body":"the presentation online to show it."},{"startTime":981.547,"endTime":985.188,"body":"But I think what the individual at"},{"startTime":981.547,"endTime":985.188,"body":"that very large company that sells"},{"startTime":985.324,"endTime":989.551,"body":"a very well known tool was trying"},{"startTime":985.324,"endTime":989.551,"body":"to say is we serve a large market."},{"startTime":989.551,"endTime":991.733,"body":"People are different at different"},{"startTime":989.551,"endTime":991.733,"body":"stages of their agile transformation."},{"startTime":991.733,"endTime":996.169,"body":"So, our tools have to take into account"},{"startTime":991.733,"endTime":996.169,"body":"people that may not be doing agile."},{"startTime":996.988,"endTime":1000.178,"body":"In the exact way that we know that"},{"startTime":996.988,"endTime":1000.178,"body":"is the best way for them to do it."},{"startTime":1000.178,"endTime":1000.26,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1000.288,"endTime":1000.588,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1000.588,"endTime":1002.442,"body":"That maybe they're not"},{"startTime":1000.588,"endTime":1002.442,"body":"doing scrum by the book."},{"startTime":1002.442,"endTime":1006.124,"body":"Maybe they're doing kanban but don't have"},{"startTime":1002.442,"endTime":1006.124,"body":"any actual kanban metrics and you know,"},{"startTime":1006.151,"endTime":1007.298,"body":"whatever scrum ban, whatever you want."},{"startTime":1007.348,"endTime":1010.075,"body":"Maybe they're doing Scrum and calling it"},{"startTime":1007.348,"endTime":1010.075,"body":"Scrum, but it's actually waterfall in it."},{"startTime":1010.079,"endTime":1010.348,"body":"Anyway."},{"startTime":1010.511,"endTime":1013.275,"body":"He, the point was our tool has"},{"startTime":1010.511,"endTime":1013.275,"body":"to be flexible enough to where we"},{"startTime":1013.275,"endTime":1014.529,"body":"can sell it to all those people."},{"startTime":1014.584,"endTime":1015.62,"body":"Yeah, that's, that's what he was saying."},{"startTime":1015.866,"endTime":1017.229,"body":"But it didn't come out like that."},{"startTime":1017.229,"endTime":1018.275,"body":"It came out like."},{"startTime":1018.588,"endTime":1020.77,"body":"Listen, all you purists"},{"startTime":1018.588,"endTime":1020.77,"body":"need is stop complaining."},{"startTime":1020.798,"endTime":1021.725,"body":"We need to make money."},{"startTime":1021.998,"endTime":1022.298,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":1022.661,"endTime":1024.87,"body":"That's the way I clearly"},{"startTime":1022.661,"endTime":1024.87,"body":"heard what he was saying."},{"startTime":1025.198,"endTime":1029.016,"body":"But the point is, if you're buying a"},{"startTime":1025.198,"endTime":1029.016,"body":"tool, right, that to supposedly help"},{"startTime":1029.016,"endTime":1030.679,"body":"you with your agile journey, right?"},{"startTime":1030.798,"endTime":1035.919,"body":"You should question and inspect the"},{"startTime":1030.798,"endTime":1035.919,"body":"people selling that tool to make sure"},{"startTime":1035.919,"endTime":1039.083,"body":"that because they're trying to make"},{"startTime":1035.919,"endTime":1039.083,"body":"some money off of you, they're not"},{"startTime":1039.083,"endTime":1040.338,"body":"actually holding your business back."},{"startTime":1040.951,"endTime":1041.878,"body":"Same thing with consultants."},{"startTime":1041.878,"endTime":1044.815,"body":"Like consultants  I've heard many, many"},{"startTime":1041.878,"endTime":1044.815,"body":"times with consultants, if you're asked to"},{"startTime":1044.819,"endTime":1048.115,"body":"do something as a consultant and uh, you"},{"startTime":1044.819,"endTime":1048.115,"body":"don't know how to do it, you just say yes"},{"startTime":1048.142,"endTime":1051.142,"body":"and then you come back to home office and"},{"startTime":1048.142,"endTime":1051.142,"body":"we will teach you what you need to know."},{"startTime":1051.142,"endTime":1052.178,"body":"Like never say no."},{"startTime":1052.315,"endTime":1053.269,"body":"I don't think that's a good strategy."},{"startTime":1053.269,"endTime":1055.097,"body":"I think, I think never"},{"startTime":1053.269,"endTime":1055.097,"body":"saying no just leads to."},{"startTime":1055.547,"endTime":1056.119,"body":"Burnout."},{"startTime":1056.119,"endTime":1057.128,"body":"It's disaster, I think."},{"startTime":1057.128,"endTime":1057.319,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1057.319,"endTime":1060.428,"body":"I think it's eventually going to"},{"startTime":1057.319,"endTime":1060.428,"body":"lead to a, a train wreck in which"},{"startTime":1060.428,"endTime":1061.765,"body":"you are a passenger on that train."},{"startTime":1061.765,"endTime":1062.365,"body":"I, that's right."},{"startTime":1062.369,"endTime":1062.519,"body":"No, yes."},{"startTime":1062.738,"endTime":1067.247,"body":"I don't think it's a great strategy,"},{"startTime":1062.738,"endTime":1067.247,"body":"again, hey, do your consultants that"},{"startTime":1067.247,"endTime":1069.328,"body":"I want to hire for this project,"},{"startTime":1067.247,"endTime":1069.328,"body":"do they know agile methodologies?"},{"startTime":1069.974,"endTime":1070.456,"body":"Yes, sir."},{"startTime":1070.483,"endTime":1071.965,"body":"They certainly do."},{"startTime":1071.965,"endTime":1073.847,"body":"And you know, they have no idea."},{"startTime":1073.847,"endTime":1077.147,"body":"That's, that's, that's what I'm saying"},{"startTime":1073.847,"endTime":1077.147,"body":"here is like if they're resistant to,"},{"startTime":1077.147,"endTime":1079.847,"body":"Hey, we should have daily standups,"},{"startTime":1077.147,"endTime":1079.847,"body":"What, what do, what do you mean?"},{"startTime":1079.956,"endTime":1080.719,"body":"What I need hands on."},{"startTime":1080.719,"endTime":1081.265,"body":"Keyboards."},{"startTime":1081.319,"endTime":1082.328,"body":"My people gotta be coding."},{"startTime":1082.328,"endTime":1082.874,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1083.174,"endTime":1084.619,"body":"Oh, we want efficient quotas."},{"startTime":1084.619,"endTime":1084.674,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1084.674,"endTime":1088.583,"body":"It's time for meetings I, I can look,"},{"startTime":1084.674,"endTime":1088.583,"body":"I, I can certainly relate to the"},{"startTime":1088.638,"endTime":1092.419,"body":"former side, which is having worked"},{"startTime":1088.638,"endTime":1092.419,"body":"for a a large global vendor mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1092.751,"endTime":1096.483,"body":"Selling tools, which is essentially in"},{"startTime":1092.751,"endTime":1096.483,"body":"a one size fits all kind of environment."},{"startTime":1096.483,"endTime":1100.056,"body":"Yeah I, I think where when you"},{"startTime":1096.483,"endTime":1100.056,"body":"inscribe this little episode with"},{"startTime":1100.138,"endTime":1103.665,"body":"this gentleman, lady who basically"},{"startTime":1100.138,"endTime":1103.665,"body":"said you are a purist, right?"},{"startTime":1103.719,"endTime":1104.292,"body":"Dot, dot, dot."},{"startTime":1104.456,"endTime":1104.565,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1104.974,"endTime":1108.547,"body":"Chances are very good that they"},{"startTime":1104.974,"endTime":1108.547,"body":"themselves are not an agileists, really."},{"startTime":1108.547,"endTime":1110.892,"body":"They feel nervous in front of Agileists."},{"startTime":1110.897,"endTime":1110.928,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1111.274,"endTime":1114.928,"body":"So they're guarded and they're saying,"},{"startTime":1111.274,"endTime":1114.928,"body":"well, look, my tool is so flexible."},{"startTime":1115.192,"endTime":1118.847,"body":"It doesn't necessarily conform to what"},{"startTime":1115.192,"endTime":1118.847,"body":"you're looking for or to do, but we, we"},{"startTime":1118.847,"endTime":1120.183,"body":"sell to all these other people, right."},{"startTime":1120.265,"endTime":1122.692,"body":"These big Fortune 100 companies or 50."},{"startTime":1122.692,"endTime":1122.91,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1123.128,"endTime":1126.074,"body":"And so if it's good enough for them,"},{"startTime":1123.128,"endTime":1126.074,"body":"it's gotta be good enough for you."},{"startTime":1126.128,"endTime":1126.838,"body":"Yeah, I know."},{"startTime":1126.838,"endTime":1129.701,"body":"I did that as a demonstrator of a product."},{"startTime":1129.701,"endTime":1131.638,"body":"Is that the, nobody ever"},{"startTime":1129.701,"endTime":1131.638,"body":"got fired for hiring ibm."},{"startTime":1131.81,"endTime":1132.219,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1132.428,"endTime":1132.692,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1132.919,"endTime":1134.801,"body":"That, that's the, that's exactly right."},{"startTime":1134.828,"endTime":1135.21,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1135.51,"endTime":1135.947,"body":"Yes"},{"startTime":1136.274,"endTime":1139.424,"body":"I think the trick is when somebody"},{"startTime":1136.274,"endTime":1139.424,"body":"gets good at this or they're"},{"startTime":1139.424,"endTime":1141.497,"body":"gonna listen first and speak last."},{"startTime":1141.524,"endTime":1141.66,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1141.66,"endTime":1144.333,"body":"And they say, let me know what you're"},{"startTime":1141.66,"endTime":1144.333,"body":"looking for and let me tell you, or"},{"startTime":1144.333,"endTime":1148.697,"body":"show you hopefully how the tool can be"},{"startTime":1144.333,"endTime":1148.697,"body":"tailored to do what you want it to do."},{"startTime":1148.751,"endTime":1148.833,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1149.242,"endTime":1150.933,"body":"Forget about being a purist, right?"},{"startTime":1150.933,"endTime":1151.042,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1151.069,"endTime":1153.678,"body":"You are just simply implementing"},{"startTime":1151.069,"endTime":1153.678,"body":"whatever you're doing in a way."},{"startTime":1154.515,"endTime":1159.315,"body":"That might be quasi agile doesn't really"},{"startTime":1154.515,"endTime":1159.315,"body":"matter as far as the vendor's concerned."},{"startTime":1159.342,"endTime":1159.424,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1159.669,"endTime":1160.897,"body":"So that's on the, on the vendor's side."},{"startTime":1160.897,"endTime":1163.978,"body":"But on the consulting"},{"startTime":1160.897,"endTime":1163.978,"body":"side, I completely agree."},{"startTime":1163.978,"endTime":1167.769,"body":"There's some very, very dubious"},{"startTime":1163.978,"endTime":1167.769,"body":"folks out there with a clock in"},{"startTime":1167.769,"endTime":1170.969,"body":"their hand saying, okay, we can, we"},{"startTime":1167.769,"endTime":1170.969,"body":"can come out and do magic for you."},{"startTime":1171.16,"endTime":1171.478,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1172.106,"endTime":1173.851,"body":"Or some of them don't even"},{"startTime":1172.106,"endTime":1173.851,"body":"take the clock with them."},{"startTime":1173.851,"endTime":1177.451,"body":"They borrow the customer's clock to tell"},{"startTime":1173.851,"endTime":1177.451,"body":"them the time and charge them for it."},{"startTime":1177.506,"endTime":1177.806,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1177.806,"endTime":1178.978,"body":"This, this is terrible."},{"startTime":1179.006,"endTime":1179.197,"body":"Holy man."},{"startTime":1179.197,"endTime":1182.142,"body":"The state of the industry is in"},{"startTime":1179.197,"endTime":1182.142,"body":"that phase right now, I feel that"},{"startTime":1182.188,"endTime":1186.442,"body":"it's gonna get shaken out because"},{"startTime":1182.188,"endTime":1186.442,"body":"we're doing so much disservice we,"},{"startTime":1186.442,"endTime":1189.042,"body":"as in agile consultants in general."},{"startTime":1189.124,"endTime":1189.206,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1189.424,"endTime":1189.533,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1189.588,"endTime":1191.142,"body":"Of dubious expertise."},{"startTime":1191.333,"endTime":1192.678,"body":"Oh man so yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":1192.683,"endTime":1196.169,"body":"I've seen that several times when people"},{"startTime":1192.683,"endTime":1196.169,"body":"come in and say, I know what you need."},{"startTime":1196.169,"endTime":1196.933,"body":"You need this."},{"startTime":1196.96,"endTime":1197.124,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1197.397,"endTime":1201.106,"body":"Have you ever actually implemented"},{"startTime":1197.397,"endTime":1201.106,"body":"an agile transformation before"},{"startTime":1201.188,"endTime":1202.251,"body":"or even been part of one?"},{"startTime":1202.278,"endTime":1204.133,"body":"I didn't have any time, there"},{"startTime":1202.278,"endTime":1204.133,"body":"was a lot of people on the call"},{"startTime":1204.133,"endTime":1205.142,"body":"cause it was a global event."},{"startTime":1205.497,"endTime":1208.524,"body":"If I had more time, I would've, or if I"},{"startTime":1205.497,"endTime":1208.524,"body":"actually also, if I would've been in the"},{"startTime":1208.524,"endTime":1213.001,"body":"room, I would've dug in to ask him what,"},{"startTime":1208.524,"endTime":1213.001,"body":"what, what alternate approaches, what"},{"startTime":1213.001,"endTime":1214.865,"body":"modifications to Agile do you propose?"},{"startTime":1216.219,"endTime":1219.083,"body":"In order, in order to, to, to"},{"startTime":1216.219,"endTime":1219.083,"body":"bridge the gap that you see and,"},{"startTime":1219.083,"endTime":1222.319,"body":"and, and, and for the reason of"},{"startTime":1219.083,"endTime":1222.319,"body":"calling us purists or throwing"},{"startTime":1222.319,"endTime":1223.956,"body":"out this derogatory, it's, I'm me."},{"startTime":1223.956,"endTime":1225.456,"body":"So I would've, I would've cut him in."},{"startTime":1225.456,"endTime":1226.401,"body":"I would've sat him in the back."},{"startTime":1228.21,"endTime":1230.692,"body":"I would've gave him a little cut"},{"startTime":1228.21,"endTime":1230.692,"body":"just to let him know, you know?"},{"startTime":1230.697,"endTime":1230.765,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1231.074,"endTime":1231.919,"body":"Line your, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1231.924,"endTime":1232.492,"body":"Line, line."},{"startTime":1232.492,"endTime":1233.801,"body":"Your knife with salt first."},{"startTime":1233.801,"endTime":1236.319,"body":"No, no, really, I mean,"},{"startTime":1233.801,"endTime":1236.319,"body":"The, I like that question."},{"startTime":1236.374,"endTime":1238.447,"body":"Uh I might have led with the"},{"startTime":1236.374,"endTime":1238.447,"body":"question of, well this, it's"},{"startTime":1238.447,"endTime":1239.728,"body":"interesting you say purist."},{"startTime":1239.728,"endTime":1240.574,"body":"What do you mean by purist?"},{"startTime":1240.574,"endTime":1240.71,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1240.71,"endTime":1241.91,"body":"Well, you said that already before."},{"startTime":1241.915,"endTime":1241.919,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1242.374,"endTime":1244.474,"body":"Like what is their opinion"},{"startTime":1242.374,"endTime":1244.474,"body":"of what a purist is?"},{"startTime":1244.478,"endTime":1246.956,"body":"Is it just somebody who wants"},{"startTime":1244.478,"endTime":1246.956,"body":"to implement Agile in some way?"},{"startTime":1247.174,"endTime":1250.201,"body":"Or is it somebody who's"},{"startTime":1247.174,"endTime":1250.201,"body":"going to dogmatically follow"},{"startTime":1250.201,"endTime":1251.01,"body":"the scrum guide or mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1251.265,"endTime":1252.41,"body":"Or what is it really?"},{"startTime":1252.628,"endTime":1252.983,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1253.038,"endTime":1256.992,"body":"And if their tool doesn't do"},{"startTime":1253.038,"endTime":1256.992,"body":"one of two of those things, then"},{"startTime":1257.047,"endTime":1258.301,"body":"you kind of question the tool."},{"startTime":1258.328,"endTime":1258.492,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1258.947,"endTime":1261.019,"body":"You know, the decision"},{"startTime":1258.947,"endTime":1261.019,"body":"to implement that tool."},{"startTime":1261.319,"endTime":1263.61,"body":"Just go back to stickies and sharpies."},{"startTime":1263.801,"endTime":1266.21,"body":"Yeah, I think we probably"},{"startTime":1263.801,"endTime":1266.21,"body":"beat this up and up."},{"startTime":1266.21,"endTime":1266.947,"body":"I, I think so."},{"startTime":1266.951,"endTime":1269.242,"body":"another category is siloed team members."},{"startTime":1269.242,"endTime":1273.306,"body":"Like if your, if your organization has"},{"startTime":1269.242,"endTime":1273.306,"body":"silos around teams or if you use component"},{"startTime":1273.306,"endTime":1277.933,"body":"teams or, or if the specialists, for"},{"startTime":1273.306,"endTime":1277.933,"body":"example, sit on one team, like all the"},{"startTime":1277.933,"endTime":1281.342,"body":"architects sit on one team, or all the"},{"startTime":1277.933,"endTime":1281.342,"body":"QA people or the testers sit on one team,"},{"startTime":1281.342,"endTime":1282.697,"body":"that kind of, that kind of uh, set up."},{"startTime":1283.142,"endTime":1286.451,"body":"I can see resistance to agile from"},{"startTime":1283.142,"endTime":1286.451,"body":"that perspective because those"},{"startTime":1286.497,"endTime":1288.815,"body":"people are used to working in a very"},{"startTime":1286.497,"endTime":1288.815,"body":"structured way of working and now"},{"startTime":1288.815,"endTime":1290.015,"body":"you're coming in and you're changing it."},{"startTime":1290.097,"endTime":1293.215,"body":"And also depending on where these"},{"startTime":1290.097,"endTime":1293.215,"body":"people have worked in the past."},{"startTime":1293.528,"endTime":1296.842,"body":"Or what other , implementations"},{"startTime":1293.528,"endTime":1296.842,"body":"of agile, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1296.842,"endTime":1299.133,"body":"What people rolling out Scrum"},{"startTime":1296.842,"endTime":1299.133,"body":"or safe or whatever right."},{"startTime":1299.188,"endTime":1304.206,"body":"Badly practices have that they have gone"},{"startTime":1299.188,"endTime":1304.206,"body":"through in the past, have affected and"},{"startTime":1304.206,"endTime":1307.378,"body":"colored their understanding  and their"},{"startTime":1304.206,"endTime":1307.378,"body":"opinion going forward in the future."},{"startTime":1307.383,"endTime":1310.96,"body":"I want to talk about like the,"},{"startTime":1307.383,"endTime":1310.96,"body":"the team members that may be that"},{"startTime":1310.96,"endTime":1314.833,"body":"may be specialists like u I UX"},{"startTime":1310.96,"endTime":1314.833,"body":"people, or b u ui UX people really"},{"startTime":1314.833,"endTime":1317.042,"body":"shouldn't have any problem like"},{"startTime":1314.833,"endTime":1317.042,"body":"dealing directly with a customer."},{"startTime":1317.042,"endTime":1323.56,"body":"But architects, bas, DBAs, specialists"},{"startTime":1317.042,"endTime":1323.56,"body":"like that and with a, with a slash"},{"startTime":1323.565,"endTime":1327.065,"body":"in the middle of this category to"},{"startTime":1323.565,"endTime":1327.065,"body":"also say, QA people and testers."},{"startTime":1327.474,"endTime":1327.665,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1327.665,"endTime":1328.865,"body":"Not even add DevOps."},{"startTime":1329.165,"endTime":1329.383,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1329.388,"endTime":1332.056,"body":"They could be a, they could be a"},{"startTime":1329.388,"endTime":1332.056,"body":"team by themselves and now you're"},{"startTime":1332.056,"endTime":1334.592,"body":"in a queue waiting for your stuff"},{"startTime":1332.056,"endTime":1334.592,"body":"to be deployed in production."},{"startTime":1334.701,"endTime":1334.783,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1334.783,"endTime":1336.456,"body":"Yeah it's so, yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":1336.701,"endTime":1340.628,"body":"You know, I think sometimes what"},{"startTime":1336.701,"endTime":1340.628,"body":"happens is the organization is"},{"startTime":1340.633,"endTime":1343.874,"body":"measuring these individual groups."},{"startTime":1344.406,"endTime":1345.033,"body":"Differential."},{"startTime":1345.115,"endTime":1345.306,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1345.306,"endTime":1348.965,"body":"So they're saying, well for developers,"},{"startTime":1345.306,"endTime":1348.965,"body":"what's the, what's their criteria?"},{"startTime":1349.019,"endTime":1349.292,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1349.292,"endTime":1352.128,"body":"As soon as something is done and"},{"startTime":1349.292,"endTime":1352.128,"body":"available to be deployed, they're done."},{"startTime":1352.456,"endTime":1353.465,"body":"But it's not deployed yet."},{"startTime":1353.519,"endTime":1353.683,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1353.847,"endTime":1357.338,"body":"So income, the DevOps team, who is"},{"startTime":1353.847,"endTime":1357.338,"body":"going to deploy it at some point, but"},{"startTime":1357.338,"endTime":1358.701,"body":"they're busy working on other things."},{"startTime":1358.938,"endTime":1362.21,"body":"Yeah so this goes back to the, the"},{"startTime":1358.938,"endTime":1362.21,"body":"whole way of structuring teams and"},{"startTime":1362.21,"endTime":1365.292,"body":"so forth, right team members can"},{"startTime":1362.21,"endTime":1365.292,"body":"be frustrated as a result of that."},{"startTime":1365.292,"endTime":1365.374,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1365.592,"endTime":1368.265,"body":"Because certainly those team members"},{"startTime":1365.592,"endTime":1368.265,"body":"are understand ultimately what"},{"startTime":1368.265,"endTime":1371.874,"body":"really matters is delivering working"},{"startTime":1368.265,"endTime":1371.874,"body":"software of good quality, right?"},{"startTime":1372.147,"endTime":1375.474,"body":"In a timely manner to the customer"},{"startTime":1372.147,"endTime":1375.474,"body":"rather than we're, we're done."},{"startTime":1375.474,"endTime":1377.665,"body":"When we're done come up"},{"startTime":1375.474,"endTime":1377.665,"body":"with an artificial d o d."},{"startTime":1377.988,"endTime":1383.069,"body":"Right and, and these people are your"},{"startTime":1377.988,"endTime":1383.069,"body":"friends actually, because listen to"},{"startTime":1383.069,"endTime":1386.401,"body":"them, listen to those pain points that"},{"startTime":1383.069,"endTime":1386.401,"body":"they're they're relaying to you, right?"},{"startTime":1386.701,"endTime":1388.883,"body":"Uh, I think there's gold"},{"startTime":1386.701,"endTime":1388.883,"body":"there sometimes, right?"},{"startTime":1388.888,"endTime":1388.938,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1388.938,"endTime":1391.633,"body":"Listen to them and act on those"},{"startTime":1388.938,"endTime":1391.633,"body":"that can be quite valuable."},{"startTime":1392.151,"endTime":1396.242,"body":"The question there is what do you propose,"},{"startTime":1392.151,"endTime":1396.242,"body":"how should we modify our implementation"},{"startTime":1396.242,"endTime":1397.506,"body":"of agile, whatever it is Yeah."},{"startTime":1397.742,"endTime":1399.069,"body":"To, to suit the concerns"},{"startTime":1397.742,"endTime":1399.069,"body":"that you're bringing up?"},{"startTime":1399.115,"endTime":1401.215,"body":"I dunno if people are gonna have a"},{"startTime":1399.115,"endTime":1401.215,"body":"problem with me saying implementation"},{"startTime":1401.215,"endTime":1403.478,"body":"Agile, meaning whether you're doing it"},{"startTime":1401.215,"endTime":1403.478,"body":"scrum, or whether you're doing whatever."},{"startTime":1403.669,"endTime":1406.133,"body":"But the if you're, if you're following,"},{"startTime":1403.669,"endTime":1406.133,"body":"it doesn't matter what you're."},{"startTime":1406.651,"endTime":1408.588,"body":"Implementation is whether if"},{"startTime":1406.651,"endTime":1408.588,"body":"you're following the principles"},{"startTime":1408.588,"endTime":1411.615,"body":"and you're committed to the values,"},{"startTime":1408.588,"endTime":1411.615,"body":"you know you should be okay."},{"startTime":1412.16,"endTime":1415.788,"body":"But I feel if you can roll back to start"},{"startTime":1412.16,"endTime":1415.788,"body":"with that in the question is, hey, do"},{"startTime":1415.788,"endTime":1417.806,"body":"you, do you, are you aligned with these?"},{"startTime":1417.81,"endTime":1417.888,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1418.051,"endTime":1419.224,"body":"Like, let's talk about that first."},{"startTime":1419.333,"endTime":1422.306,"body":"And now if you're talking about"},{"startTime":1419.333,"endTime":1422.306,"body":"techniques, We can flex techniques,"},{"startTime":1422.306,"endTime":1423.342,"body":"we can talk about techniques."},{"startTime":1423.342,"endTime":1423.86,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1423.86,"endTime":1424.106,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1424.106,"endTime":1424.624,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1424.624,"endTime":1424.897,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1424.897,"endTime":1425.115,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1425.115,"endTime":1428.36,"body":"Just so those listening one of the"},{"startTime":1425.115,"endTime":1428.36,"body":"things you could do is you could"},{"startTime":1428.36,"endTime":1430.433,"body":"have team members in bed with teams."},{"startTime":1430.433,"endTime":1430.488,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1430.488,"endTime":1434.442,"body":"So these are specialist team members,"},{"startTime":1430.488,"endTime":1434.442,"body":"just as on an as needed basis even."},{"startTime":1434.442,"endTime":1434.524,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1434.747,"endTime":1434.851,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1435.042,"endTime":1437.624,"body":"So you're not necessarily saying,"},{"startTime":1435.042,"endTime":1437.624,"body":"okay, let's just have an individual"},{"startTime":1437.76,"endTime":1440.824,"body":"from let's say um, UX or, or DevOps."},{"startTime":1440.851,"endTime":1440.96,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1441.178,"endTime":1443.769,"body":"Embedded within your team"},{"startTime":1441.178,"endTime":1443.769,"body":"for three days because."},{"startTime":1444.492,"endTime":1447.247,"body":"Chances are you may not have"},{"startTime":1444.492,"endTime":1447.247,"body":"three days worth of work for them."},{"startTime":1447.301,"endTime":1447.547,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1447.547,"endTime":1448.256,"body":"You don't know that."},{"startTime":1448.256,"endTime":1449.81,"body":"You might, you might have"},{"startTime":1448.256,"endTime":1449.81,"body":"more, you might have less."},{"startTime":1449.919,"endTime":1450.028,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1450.056,"endTime":1453.219,"body":"So on an adita basis, bring them"},{"startTime":1450.056,"endTime":1453.219,"body":"in and then they float around."},{"startTime":1453.219,"endTime":1453.383,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1453.383,"endTime":1453.438,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1453.438,"endTime":1454.556,"body":"So they're the, the floaters."},{"startTime":1454.583,"endTime":1454.665,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1454.883,"endTime":1456.656,"body":"There's many different ways to slice this."},{"startTime":1456.656,"endTime":1459.71,"body":"Right depending on the nature of the"},{"startTime":1456.656,"endTime":1459.71,"body":"work, I mean, if you, if your work"},{"startTime":1459.71,"endTime":1463.256,"body":"involves a, a heavy UX component,"},{"startTime":1459.71,"endTime":1463.256,"body":"you might have them embedded in there"},{"startTime":1463.283,"endTime":1464.619,"body":"most of the time, or even full-time."},{"startTime":1464.619,"endTime":1466.165,"body":"Yeah so techniques wise, yes."},{"startTime":1466.165,"endTime":1469.438,"body":"I mean, there's a plethora of different"},{"startTime":1466.165,"endTime":1469.438,"body":"solutions there I, I think the point"},{"startTime":1469.438,"endTime":1474.701,"body":"is to, to listen to the team members"},{"startTime":1469.438,"endTime":1474.701,"body":"to find out why they are objecting to."},{"startTime":1475.733,"endTime":1476.933,"body":"The agile ways of working, right?"},{"startTime":1476.938,"endTime":1476.942,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1477.506,"endTime":1480.015,"body":"QA specifically, like only,"},{"startTime":1477.506,"endTime":1480.015,"body":"only this interests me, only"},{"startTime":1480.015,"endTime":1481.497,"body":"because it's in my background."},{"startTime":1481.715,"endTime":1485.069,"body":"Like I could completely see them"},{"startTime":1481.715,"endTime":1485.069,"body":"resisting, especially a team."},{"startTime":1485.069,"endTime":1487.442,"body":"The where like stuff is"},{"startTime":1485.069,"endTime":1487.442,"body":"chucked over the fence, oh God."},{"startTime":1487.524,"endTime":1489.597,"body":"You know, to a QA team to"},{"startTime":1487.524,"endTime":1489.597,"body":"go through the QA phase."},{"startTime":1489.76,"endTime":1490.142,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1490.524,"endTime":1494.288,"body":"You know, , Hey, we're gonna freeze"},{"startTime":1490.524,"endTime":1494.288,"body":"all code changes and we're gonna go"},{"startTime":1494.288,"endTime":1497.615,"body":"into a month long cycle of testing"},{"startTime":1494.288,"endTime":1497.615,"body":"or something, whatever, right?"},{"startTime":1497.615,"endTime":1497.669,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1497.888,"endTime":1503.397,"body":"Um I could see the QA p initially"},{"startTime":1497.888,"endTime":1503.397,"body":"being hesitant of moving to iterative"},{"startTime":1503.751,"endTime":1507.451,"body":"development like I was on a QA team"},{"startTime":1503.751,"endTime":1507.451,"body":"one time earlier in my career where the"},{"startTime":1507.451,"endTime":1510.015,"body":"developers would work basically right"},{"startTime":1507.451,"endTime":1510.015,"body":"up until the last day of the sprint and"},{"startTime":1510.015,"endTime":1511.597,"body":"never give the testers anything to test."},{"startTime":1511.733,"endTime":1514.897,"body":"It wasn't like you were peering on"},{"startTime":1511.733,"endTime":1514.897,"body":"things because they, because that"},{"startTime":1514.897,"endTime":1517.474,"body":"company had implemented agile."},{"startTime":1517.474,"endTime":1519.928,"body":"They, they basically said, the management"},{"startTime":1517.474,"endTime":1519.928,"body":"came down and said, you're using Scrum"},{"startTime":1519.928,"endTime":1524.019,"body":"now, and these are gonna be your teams"},{"startTime":1519.928,"endTime":1524.019,"body":"and this is how it's gonna go and this"},{"startTime":1524.019,"endTime":1526.31,"body":"is how long your sprints are gonna"},{"startTime":1524.019,"endTime":1526.31,"body":"be, and this is what work you're gonna"},{"startTime":1526.31,"endTime":1527.947,"body":"take in during your sprint planning."},{"startTime":1528.819,"endTime":1530.574,"body":"You know, it's pretty"},{"startTime":1528.819,"endTime":1530.574,"body":"much prescribe every Yeah."},{"startTime":1531.001,"endTime":1533.156,"body":"That, that was what, well, that"},{"startTime":1531.001,"endTime":1533.156,"body":"was the, that was the management's"},{"startTime":1533.16,"endTime":1534.492,"body":"idea of what Scrum like."},{"startTime":1534.492,"endTime":1536.319,"body":"It had nothing to do with Scrum or Agile."},{"startTime":1536.401,"endTime":1536.647,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1536.647,"endTime":1538.392,"body":"It had like, it had to"},{"startTime":1536.647,"endTime":1538.392,"body":"do with the development."},{"startTime":1538.392,"endTime":1539.974,"body":"Didn't want to write PRDs anymore."},{"startTime":1540.292,"endTime":1542.31,"body":"And they didn't wanna do a bunch of"},{"startTime":1540.292,"endTime":1542.31,"body":"documentation at the same time as a"},{"startTime":1542.31,"endTime":1545.769,"body":"software and they didn't like they"},{"startTime":1542.31,"endTime":1545.769,"body":"development wanted to eat pizza at seven"},{"startTime":1545.769,"endTime":1547.515,"body":"in the morning and not wear pants to work."},{"startTime":1547.569,"endTime":1550.433,"body":"That's basically their implementation"},{"startTime":1547.569,"endTime":1550.433,"body":"of, of, and a lot of people on the"},{"startTime":1550.433,"endTime":1555.778,"body":"team QA members specifically, would"},{"startTime":1550.433,"endTime":1555.778,"body":"get a bad taste in their mouth going"},{"startTime":1555.783,"endTime":1558.697,"body":"to other shops after that to be"},{"startTime":1555.783,"endTime":1558.697,"body":"like, oh boy, you guys are agile."},{"startTime":1558.697,"endTime":1559.378,"body":"Oh, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1559.624,"endTime":1564.031,"body":"But it's not, it's nothing anywhere near"},{"startTime":1559.624,"endTime":1564.031,"body":"what you know, the Agile is in principle."},{"startTime":1564.073,"endTime":1566.528,"body":"Or, or what agile needs to be in practice."},{"startTime":1566.528,"endTime":1566.773,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1566.773,"endTime":1569.992,"body":"I mean, it's just, that's just a,"},{"startTime":1566.773,"endTime":1569.992,"body":"what I call a, a wonky or a bad"},{"startTime":1569.992,"endTime":1572.064,"body":"implementation of quote unquote agile."},{"startTime":1572.092,"endTime":1572.228,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1572.582,"endTime":1572.746,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1572.746,"endTime":1573.21,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1573.214,"endTime":1574.873,"body":"And that's so common"},{"startTime":1573.214,"endTime":1574.873,"body":"too, by the way, right?"},{"startTime":1574.878,"endTime":1577.655,"body":"Developers are saying we're done"},{"startTime":1574.878,"endTime":1577.655,"body":"when they're done developing and then"},{"startTime":1577.655,"endTime":1578.946,"body":"checking it over the wall at Yeah."},{"startTime":1579.182,"endTime":1581.255,"body":"You know, at qa and then"},{"startTime":1579.182,"endTime":1581.255,"body":"reporting these metrics."},{"startTime":1581.26,"endTime":1582.455,"body":"So we, we are done."},{"startTime":1582.455,"endTime":1583.601,"body":"We're not really done."},{"startTime":1583.655,"endTime":1586.501,"body":"Well, the other thing, which , QA"},{"startTime":1583.655,"endTime":1586.501,"body":"team members will find useless"},{"startTime":1586.501,"endTime":1590.328,"body":"advice is well, you've gotta move"},{"startTime":1586.501,"endTime":1590.328,"body":"to a continuous testing, or you've"},{"startTime":1590.328,"endTime":1591.773,"body":"gotta add more automated testing."},{"startTime":1591.773,"endTime":1595.419,"body":"I mean, you've gotta quote, shift"},{"startTime":1591.773,"endTime":1595.419,"body":"left with your testing efforts."},{"startTime":1595.419,"endTime":1597.901,"body":"And the QA team members are"},{"startTime":1595.419,"endTime":1597.901,"body":"very frustrated at that because"},{"startTime":1597.901,"endTime":1598.773,"body":"it's the, it doesn't help."},{"startTime":1598.778,"endTime":1602.369,"body":"Like, yes, everyone agrees like, oh,"},{"startTime":1598.778,"endTime":1602.369,"body":"So see, they'll bring in somebody or"},{"startTime":1602.423,"endTime":1605.314,"body":"you know, again, one of these vendors"},{"startTime":1602.423,"endTime":1605.314,"body":"or their consultants or you know, some"},{"startTime":1605.314,"endTime":1607.714,"body":"new engineering manager and they'll"},{"startTime":1605.314,"endTime":1607.714,"body":"say, wow, we gotta shift lift and"},{"startTime":1607.714,"endTime":1611.205,"body":"we gotta have continuous testing and"},{"startTime":1607.714,"endTime":1611.205,"body":"we gotta double down on automation."},{"startTime":1611.205,"endTime":1614.205,"body":"And, and everyone will do"},{"startTime":1611.205,"endTime":1614.205,"body":"this with their heads, right?"},{"startTime":1614.396,"endTime":1615.705,"body":"Oh, they'll bob their heads up and down."},{"startTime":1615.71,"endTime":1616.823,"body":"So like, oh, so good."},{"startTime":1617.232,"endTime":1620.56,"body":"So like, they're just watching"},{"startTime":1617.232,"endTime":1620.56,"body":"Simon Sinek oh, so inspirational."},{"startTime":1620.892,"endTime":1622.392,"body":"And then no money goes to it."},{"startTime":1622.396,"endTime":1623.482,"body":"No budgeting goes to it."},{"startTime":1623.51,"endTime":1625.664,"body":"Nobody tries to train any"},{"startTime":1623.51,"endTime":1625.664,"body":"of the QA team members."},{"startTime":1625.91,"endTime":1626.864,"body":"That's just lip service."},{"startTime":1626.892,"endTime":1627.137,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1627.246,"endTime":1627.51,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1627.764,"endTime":1628.064,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1628.31,"endTime":1629.182,"body":"Makes everyone feel good."},{"startTime":1629.228,"endTime":1633.632,"body":"But then again it's, it's, these"},{"startTime":1629.228,"endTime":1633.632,"body":"people are seen as well, you're just,"},{"startTime":1633.742,"endTime":1635.578,"body":"you're just resisting change, you know?"},{"startTime":1635.678,"endTime":1637.478,"body":"Well, it's the, it's the"},{"startTime":1635.678,"endTime":1637.478,"body":"same as middle managers."},{"startTime":1637.478,"endTime":1639.605,"body":"It's like, well, did you"},{"startTime":1637.478,"endTime":1639.605,"body":"train them on right now?"},{"startTime":1639.605,"endTime":1642.632,"body":"Now that you own all"},{"startTime":1639.605,"endTime":1642.632,"body":"these quote resources?"},{"startTime":1642.919,"endTime":1644.964,"body":"Resources, human resources."},{"startTime":1645.128,"endTime":1648.946,"body":"Now that you own all these quote resources"},{"startTime":1645.128,"endTime":1648.946,"body":"that you hire for the organization, like"},{"startTime":1648.946,"endTime":1651.155,"body":"you have all these people that you've"},{"startTime":1648.946,"endTime":1651.155,"body":"hired and they work for you on paper."},{"startTime":1651.155,"endTime":1652.464,"body":"You're their org."},{"startTime":1652.682,"endTime":1654.292,"body":"Org chart, direct, you're their boss."},{"startTime":1654.292,"endTime":1654.428,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1654.428,"endTime":1655.355,"body":"Reporting boss."},{"startTime":1655.792,"endTime":1656.201,"body":"But."},{"startTime":1656.487,"endTime":1657.96,"body":"They don't work with"},{"startTime":1656.487,"endTime":1657.96,"body":"you on a dayday basis."},{"startTime":1657.96,"endTime":1659.896,"body":"They're distributed to the"},{"startTime":1657.96,"endTime":1659.896,"body":"teams that they, that they"},{"startTime":1659.896,"endTime":1661.887,"body":"serve as a test , expert on."},{"startTime":1662.214,"endTime":1665.432,"body":"So, ha has anyone talked to these"},{"startTime":1662.214,"endTime":1665.432,"body":"managers and sat them down to say,"},{"startTime":1665.732,"endTime":1669.905,"body":"these are the principles, agile, this is"},{"startTime":1665.732,"endTime":1669.905,"body":"what typical org structures look like."},{"startTime":1669.905,"endTime":1673.023,"body":"Now that we're using distributed,"},{"startTime":1669.905,"endTime":1673.023,"body":"decentralized type of we, we did"},{"startTime":1673.023,"endTime":1676.314,"body":"a whole podcast on team topologies"},{"startTime":1673.023,"endTime":1676.314,"body":"it behooves you to, to go out"},{"startTime":1676.314,"endTime":1679.205,"body":"and learn a little more about how"},{"startTime":1676.314,"endTime":1679.205,"body":"different organizational structures."},{"startTime":1679.632,"endTime":1682.305,"body":"treat things the old, the old"},{"startTime":1679.632,"endTime":1682.305,"body":"pyramid, we, we might get into"},{"startTime":1682.305,"endTime":1683.205,"body":"that in the Deming podcast."},{"startTime":1683.205,"endTime":1687.814,"body":"The old pyramid org structure"},{"startTime":1683.205,"endTime":1687.814,"body":"chart really doesn't help you."},{"startTime":1687.978,"endTime":1689.096,"body":"No, it certainly doesn't."},{"startTime":1689.096,"endTime":1690.405,"body":"I, I fully agree with that."},{"startTime":1690.678,"endTime":1693.951,"body":"You know, I, I think, well, one of"},{"startTime":1690.678,"endTime":1693.951,"body":"the things that's always difficult"},{"startTime":1693.955,"endTime":1698.151,"body":"going into an organization is"},{"startTime":1693.955,"endTime":1698.151,"body":"looking at where they're at."},{"startTime":1698.587,"endTime":1699.432,"body":"I hate that term."},{"startTime":1699.542,"endTime":1700.332,"body":"Meet 'em where they're at."},{"startTime":1700.332,"endTime":1700.605,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1700.605,"endTime":1700.606,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1700.66,"endTime":1704.996,"body":"But figure that out and then say, well,"},{"startTime":1700.66,"endTime":1704.996,"body":"I, they really don't know anything about."},{"startTime":1705.323,"endTime":1706.905,"body":"The principles or anything like that."},{"startTime":1706.905,"endTime":1710.069,"body":"So give them an induction"},{"startTime":1706.905,"endTime":1710.069,"body":"in Agile foundations."},{"startTime":1710.096,"endTime":1713.696,"body":"And typically you'll find people say,"},{"startTime":1710.096,"endTime":1713.696,"body":"well, does that mean a half hour meeting?"},{"startTime":1713.969,"endTime":1715.442,"body":"Well, no, it doesn't."},{"startTime":1715.742,"endTime":1720.432,"body":"You know it at, at a minimum it's a"},{"startTime":1715.742,"endTime":1720.432,"body":"half a day, but, ideally a full day."},{"startTime":1720.487,"endTime":1723.723,"body":"Yes you could do worse than just"},{"startTime":1720.487,"endTime":1723.723,"body":"do the Agile Foundations course"},{"startTime":1723.723,"endTime":1726.451,"body":"that the Scrum Alliance has, for"},{"startTime":1723.723,"endTime":1726.451,"body":"instance, I know scrum.org probably"},{"startTime":1726.451,"endTime":1728.332,"body":"has something similar, but Right."},{"startTime":1728.337,"endTime":1729.178,"body":"So do that."},{"startTime":1729.178,"endTime":1733.242,"body":"But they have to commit, they have to"},{"startTime":1729.178,"endTime":1733.242,"body":"commit to these middle managers or even,"},{"startTime":1733.269,"endTime":1734.796,"body":"even senior managers for that matter."},{"startTime":1734.796,"endTime":1737.942,"body":"Yeah, you could do a little shorter"},{"startTime":1734.796,"endTime":1737.942,"body":"of a stint there, but CM Manager"},{"startTime":1737.942,"endTime":1739.169,"body":"have to understand that too."},{"startTime":1739.169,"endTime":1742.36,"body":"So they don't just come in with"},{"startTime":1739.169,"endTime":1742.36,"body":"their own interpretations or."},{"startTime":1742.837,"endTime":1744.555,"body":"Misinterpretations Yeah."},{"startTime":1744.637,"endTime":1747.473,"body":"Of what Agile is, and then"},{"startTime":1744.637,"endTime":1747.473,"body":"they just drive down that path."},{"startTime":1747.473,"endTime":1747.637,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1747.637,"endTime":1750.092,"body":"So you need to kind of"},{"startTime":1747.637,"endTime":1750.092,"body":"have a level setting there."},{"startTime":1750.092,"endTime":1750.173,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1750.473,"endTime":1751.973,"body":"And that is often not done."},{"startTime":1752.001,"endTime":1752.192,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1752.192,"endTime":1752.873,"body":"Is what I find."},{"startTime":1752.955,"endTime":1756.464,"body":"Well, the funny thing is like LE"},{"startTime":1752.955,"endTime":1756.464,"body":"leadership teams and executives and when"},{"startTime":1756.464,"endTime":1760.31,"body":"there's like a big executive changeover or"},{"startTime":1756.464,"endTime":1760.31,"body":"a CEO changeover, whatever they do, like"},{"startTime":1760.31,"endTime":1763.61,"body":"leadership retreats and stuff like that"},{"startTime":1760.31,"endTime":1763.61,"body":"to, to talk about what, let's align on"},{"startTime":1763.61,"endTime":1764.782,"body":"vision, let's align on this kinda stuff."},{"startTime":1764.782,"endTime":1768.11,"body":"And then, and I've never heard anyone"},{"startTime":1764.782,"endTime":1768.11,"body":"doing like a process type of like"},{"startTime":1768.11,"endTime":1771.046,"body":"treating with the same vigor of like,"},{"startTime":1768.11,"endTime":1771.046,"body":"Hey, let's redefine how our teams"},{"startTime":1771.046,"endTime":1774.86,"body":"internally are gonna work together"},{"startTime":1771.046,"endTime":1774.86,"body":"and that's I don't know whether"},{"startTime":1774.86,"endTime":1778.296,"body":"that's a failing of the, of the modern"},{"startTime":1774.86,"endTime":1778.296,"body":"organization is not inspecting the system."},{"startTime":1778.823,"endTime":1782.505,"body":"Even if we dial all the way back"},{"startTime":1778.823,"endTime":1782.505,"body":"to Taylorism, which invented modern"},{"startTime":1782.505,"endTime":1786.405,"body":"management, like the, in taylorism"},{"startTime":1782.505,"endTime":1786.405,"body":"management's whole job was to"},{"startTime":1786.41,"endTime":1788.26,"body":"inspect and adapt the system."},{"startTime":1789.187,"endTime":1789.923,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1789.923,"endTime":1789.978,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1790.005,"endTime":1790.878,"body":"Nobody else could do it."},{"startTime":1790.905,"endTime":1792.187,"body":"No, nobody else could do it."},{"startTime":1792.187,"endTime":1792.705,"body":"That's correct."},{"startTime":1793.605,"endTime":1796.587,"body":"I, I, I think we're falling"},{"startTime":1793.605,"endTime":1796.587,"body":"foul of you know, this, this."},{"startTime":1797.037,"endTime":1801.346,"body":"This modern, how should I put this,"},{"startTime":1797.037,"endTime":1801.346,"body":"this, this paradigm where there's no"},{"startTime":1801.346,"endTime":1802.955,"body":"time to learn, there's only time to do."},{"startTime":1802.982,"endTime":1803.064,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1803.446,"endTime":1803.801,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1803.955,"endTime":1805.882,"body":"Uh we have to get this done by."},{"startTime":1806.237,"endTime":1806.564,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1806.701,"endTime":1808.61,"body":"You don't have time to"},{"startTime":1806.701,"endTime":1808.61,"body":"waste on all that stuff."},{"startTime":1808.61,"endTime":1809.782,"body":"All that mumbo jumbo."},{"startTime":1810.437,"endTime":1811.201,"body":"That's the problem."},{"startTime":1811.31,"endTime":1812.728,"body":"There's no time to sit."},{"startTime":1812.728,"endTime":1815.892,"body":"Just pause for a bit and say, let's all"},{"startTime":1812.728,"endTime":1815.892,"body":"at least get on our level playing field"},{"startTime":1815.892,"endTime":1817.173,"body":"of what we're trying to talk about here."},{"startTime":1817.337,"endTime":1821.337,"body":"You know, and then when you add in"},{"startTime":1817.337,"endTime":1821.337,"body":"dubious consultants and you know,"},{"startTime":1821.337,"endTime":1824.882,"body":"these vendors that we spoke about"},{"startTime":1821.337,"endTime":1824.882,"body":"earlier, it just does our customers"},{"startTime":1824.882,"endTime":1826.246,"body":"and our clients a disservice."},{"startTime":1826.246,"endTime":1826.301,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1826.305,"endTime":1827.392,"body":"On, on a massive scale."},{"startTime":1827.808,"endTime":1830.381,"body":"I'm glad we can end this podcast"},{"startTime":1827.808,"endTime":1830.381,"body":"with some hope for the future."},{"startTime":1831.199,"endTime":1831.472,"body":"There."},{"startTime":1831.526,"endTime":1832.917,"body":"There is, there is hope."},{"startTime":1832.999,"endTime":1833.708,"body":"There is hope."},{"startTime":1833.954,"endTime":1836.399,"body":"If you're not finding it"},{"startTime":1833.954,"endTime":1836.399,"body":"in this podcast rewatch it."},{"startTime":1836.399,"endTime":1837.508,"body":"No watch it again."},{"startTime":1837.508,"endTime":1838.263,"body":"You watch it again."},{"startTime":1838.399,"endTime":1841.863,"body":"But no, definitely stay tuned for"},{"startTime":1838.399,"endTime":1841.863,"body":"another podcast where we're gonna go"},{"startTime":1841.863,"endTime":1844.59,"body":"through some of this stuff in more"},{"startTime":1841.863,"endTime":1844.59,"body":"detail that's in a different way."},{"startTime":1844.635,"endTime":1848.154,"body":"And also check out team Topologies"},{"startTime":1844.635,"endTime":1848.154,"body":"and agile doesn't work here."},{"startTime":1848.263,"endTime":1852.326,"body":"Those are two that are, are in,"},{"startTime":1848.263,"endTime":1852.326,"body":"in a similar lane that we're in"},{"startTime":1852.326,"endTime":1855.408,"body":"right now team Topologies is, is"},{"startTime":1852.326,"endTime":1855.408,"body":"talking about the, the org structure"},{"startTime":1855.926,"endTime":1858.481,"body":"and  better ways of arranging teams"},{"startTime":1855.926,"endTime":1858.481,"body":"that, that work with each other."},{"startTime":1858.699,"endTime":1861.09,"body":"And then uh, agile doesn't work"},{"startTime":1858.699,"endTime":1861.09,"body":"here we talk about the same kind"},{"startTime":1861.09,"endTime":1865.554,"body":"of underpinnings of people uh, of"},{"startTime":1861.09,"endTime":1865.554,"body":"traditionalists or, or pragmatists or"},{"startTime":1865.799,"endTime":1869.735,"body":"people that are just kicking, refusing"},{"startTime":1865.799,"endTime":1869.735,"body":"to change and, and, and what to do."},{"startTime":1869.74,"endTime":1869.954,"body":"But"},{"startTime":1870.154,"endTime":1873.152,"body":"The big takeaway from this is if you"},{"startTime":1870.154,"endTime":1873.152,"body":"ever now that you hear it, Now that"},{"startTime":1873.152,"endTime":1874.57,"body":"you've heard us talking about it, right?"},{"startTime":1874.625,"endTime":1878.643,"body":"If you get referred to as a pierce,"},{"startTime":1874.625,"endTime":1878.643,"body":"if you hear somebody slinging that"},{"startTime":1878.643,"endTime":1882.079,"body":"derogatory term at you, you should"},{"startTime":1878.643,"endTime":1882.079,"body":"definitely, like the very first thing"},{"startTime":1882.079,"endTime":1885.416,"body":"should click into your brain of, oh,"},{"startTime":1882.079,"endTime":1885.416,"body":"I heard Brian on a podcast one time,"},{"startTime":1885.416,"endTime":1888.902,"body":"say, I should pull the emergency break"},{"startTime":1885.416,"endTime":1888.902,"body":"on this conversation and say excuse me."},{"startTime":1889.516,"endTime":1891.779,"body":"What do you mean mean"},{"startTime":1889.516,"endTime":1891.779,"body":"that's right by purist."},{"startTime":1891.784,"endTime":1892.434,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1892.434,"endTime":1893.852,"body":"Don't, don't bring out the gloves yet."},{"startTime":1894.098,"endTime":1894.343,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1894.343,"endTime":1898.084,"body":"Just listen, first, ask these questions"},{"startTime":1894.343,"endTime":1898.084,"body":"and then you'll be surprised at you"},{"startTime":1898.084,"endTime":1899.666,"body":"know, where, where the conversation goes."},{"startTime":1900.293,"endTime":1904.329,"body":"We may even do a separate podcast"},{"startTime":1900.293,"endTime":1904.329,"body":"and due course on the new."},{"startTime":1904.657,"endTime":1907.057,"body":"Methods as per like management 3.0."},{"startTime":1907.111,"endTime":1908.266,"body":"Mm I'd be interested in that."},{"startTime":1908.32,"endTime":1908.648,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1908.648,"endTime":1908.702,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1909.357,"endTime":1912.193,"body":"So stay tuned everybody,"},{"startTime":1909.357,"endTime":1912.193,"body":"and subscribe and like, ooh,"}]}