{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":3.59,"body":"If you were a scrum master agile coach,"},{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":3.59,"body":", and maybe you're out of a job, maybe"},{"startTime":3.59,"endTime":5.989,"body":"you've been out of a job for a little"},{"startTime":3.59,"endTime":5.989,"body":"while and  you see all these project"},{"startTime":5.989,"endTime":10.1,"body":"manager positions and you're looking at"},{"startTime":5.989,"endTime":10.1,"body":"them wondering what are the differences?"},{"startTime":10.1,"endTime":11.15,"body":"And you have a lot of questions."},{"startTime":11.191,"endTime":12.751,"body":"We're gonna talk through"},{"startTime":11.191,"endTime":12.751,"body":"that in this podcast."},{"startTime":12.827,"endTime":13.127,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":13.187,"endTime":14.567,"body":"This is the podcast for you."},{"startTime":14.567,"endTime":15.407,"body":"So stay tuned."},{"startTime":15.617,"endTime":19.127,"body":"A couple podcasts ago, we had our favorite"},{"startTime":15.617,"endTime":19.127,"body":"special mystery guest on, and Trisha,"},{"startTime":19.127,"endTime":22.337,"body":"who's a product manager, and we talked"},{"startTime":19.127,"endTime":22.337,"body":"to our favorite special mystery guest"},{"startTime":22.337,"endTime":25.967,"body":"about why they should move from being a"},{"startTime":22.337,"endTime":25.967,"body":"scrum master into being a product manager."},{"startTime":26.177,"endTime":30.577,"body":"And, on that podcast, I made a statement"},{"startTime":26.177,"endTime":30.577,"body":"that in the next maybe five to 10 years,"},{"startTime":30.577,"endTime":34.867,"body":"I'd see the positions, available to Scrum"},{"startTime":30.577,"endTime":34.867,"body":"Masters and Agile coaches declining."},{"startTime":34.867,"endTime":36.812,"body":"And then, it'll be much"},{"startTime":34.867,"endTime":36.812,"body":"more difficult to get a job."},{"startTime":36.812,"endTime":38.822,"body":"So where are all those people going to go?"},{"startTime":39.092,"endTime":42.985,"body":"That are kind of getting pushed out I"},{"startTime":39.092,"endTime":42.985,"body":"mean, you and I know there's positions"},{"startTime":42.985,"endTime":45.895,"body":"now that are labeled Scrum Master that"},{"startTime":42.985,"endTime":45.895,"body":"when you actually read them, they're"},{"startTime":45.895,"endTime":48.295,"body":"obviously a relabeled project manager."},{"startTime":48.385,"endTime":51.44,"body":"So maybe we'll talk about that too,"},{"startTime":48.385,"endTime":51.44,"body":"but, maybe some people are looking"},{"startTime":51.445,"endTime":54.35,"body":"at project management and they don't"},{"startTime":51.445,"endTime":54.35,"body":"know what the real difference is."},{"startTime":54.35,"endTime":57.38,"body":"They've never had, had actually"},{"startTime":54.35,"endTime":57.38,"body":"sat down with a project manager to"},{"startTime":57.38,"endTime":59.615,"body":"talk about so maybe we'll, we'll"},{"startTime":57.38,"endTime":59.615,"body":"work through some of that today."},{"startTime":59.825,"endTime":60.755,"body":"Yeah, that sounds good."},{"startTime":60.987,"endTime":65.697,"body":"As a scrum master, when you think"},{"startTime":60.987,"endTime":65.697,"body":"about a project manager role assuming"},{"startTime":65.697,"endTime":70.567,"body":"you've never been a project manager"},{"startTime":65.697,"endTime":70.567,"body":"before you even consider applying"},{"startTime":70.567,"endTime":71.887,"body":"for a position like that mm-hmm."},{"startTime":72.127,"endTime":73.897,"body":"What, what's the first"},{"startTime":72.127,"endTime":73.897,"body":"thing that comes to mind?"},{"startTime":73.954,"endTime":77.134,"body":"For me it's  the word"},{"startTime":73.954,"endTime":77.134,"body":"manager is in the title."},{"startTime":77.554,"endTime":81.124,"body":"So immediately you think this"},{"startTime":77.554,"endTime":81.124,"body":"is a management type of role"},{"startTime":81.614,"endTime":85.754,"body":"whereas scrum master, there's"},{"startTime":81.614,"endTime":85.754,"body":"no word like manager in there."},{"startTime":85.754,"endTime":85.904,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":85.934,"endTime":90.224,"body":"So like immediately you start to"},{"startTime":85.934,"endTime":90.224,"body":"think about, well, if this is a"},{"startTime":90.229,"endTime":92.114,"body":"management role, what am I managing?"},{"startTime":92.369,"endTime":94.619,"body":"Obviously the project, but what"},{"startTime":92.369,"endTime":94.619,"body":"does, what does that entail?"},{"startTime":94.969,"endTime":98.169,"body":"And then you start looking into some of"},{"startTime":94.969,"endTime":98.169,"body":"the things that you see in the the job"},{"startTime":98.169,"endTime":102.889,"body":"description when they talk about it,"},{"startTime":98.169,"endTime":102.889,"body":"assuming it's a legit job description and"},{"startTime":102.889,"endTime":105.049,"body":"not one that's simply been copy pasted."},{"startTime":105.109,"endTime":105.289,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":105.409,"endTime":109.249,"body":"You, you'll see things like"},{"startTime":105.409,"endTime":109.249,"body":"Finances or budgeting you know,"},{"startTime":109.249,"endTime":111.499,"body":"procurement, risk management."},{"startTime":111.499,"endTime":112.999,"body":"There are so many different things."},{"startTime":113.299,"endTime":120.609,"body":"What the project managers learn from PMI"},{"startTime":113.299,"endTime":120.609,"body":"as project management techniques involve"},{"startTime":120.609,"endTime":122.979,"body":"all these creation of all these plans."},{"startTime":122.984,"endTime":123.159,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":123.429,"endTime":123.789,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":124.209,"endTime":129.399,"body":"And so one such plan is the project"},{"startTime":124.209,"endTime":129.399,"body":"management plan, which believe"},{"startTime":129.399,"endTime":131.469,"body":"it or not, most people simply."},{"startTime":132.069,"endTime":134.559,"body":"Take to mean the Gantt chart."},{"startTime":134.709,"endTime":134.799,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":135.099,"endTime":137.169,"body":"But PMI differentiates that."},{"startTime":137.174,"endTime":140.809,"body":"They, they say a project management"},{"startTime":137.174,"endTime":140.809,"body":"plan is really a con  a bundle of"},{"startTime":140.869,"endTime":144.799,"body":"a bunch of different subsidiary"},{"startTime":140.869,"endTime":144.799,"body":"plans is the term they use, right?"},{"startTime":145.009,"endTime":149.639,"body":"Like resource management, time management,"},{"startTime":145.009,"endTime":149.639,"body":"risk management  procurement, right?"},{"startTime":149.639,"endTime":153.779,"body":"All of these little plans that they talk"},{"startTime":149.639,"endTime":153.779,"body":"about, subsidiary, they all add up to what"},{"startTime":153.779,"endTime":156.669,"body":"they call project management planning."},{"startTime":156.689,"endTime":156.839,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":157.259,"endTime":161.489,"body":"Of which, by the way, one"},{"startTime":157.259,"endTime":161.489,"body":"little component is schedule."},{"startTime":161.549,"endTime":161.639,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":161.879,"endTime":166.139,"body":"And that's what people often"},{"startTime":161.879,"endTime":166.139,"body":"mistake for the project plan."},{"startTime":166.169,"endTime":166.289,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":166.409,"endTime":168.569,"body":"I e a Gantt chart, that's"},{"startTime":166.409,"endTime":168.569,"body":"just one component."},{"startTime":168.569,"endTime":172.499,"body":"So if you're a scrum master, that's the"},{"startTime":168.569,"endTime":172.499,"body":"first thing to kind of get to grips with."},{"startTime":172.499,"endTime":174.449,"body":"You have to come up with all these plans."},{"startTime":174.479,"endTime":174.569,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":174.899,"endTime":175.289,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":175.289,"endTime":178.079,"body":"That's a lot more work than"},{"startTime":175.289,"endTime":178.079,"body":"you anticipated probably."},{"startTime":178.079,"endTime":179.819,"body":"Cuz as a scrum master, you"},{"startTime":178.079,"endTime":179.819,"body":"didn't have to do that."},{"startTime":179.819,"endTime":180.059,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":180.669,"endTime":185.049,"body":"And certainly at the very minimum, you"},{"startTime":180.669,"endTime":185.049,"body":"as a scrum master are unlikely to have"},{"startTime":185.049,"endTime":187.719,"body":"had to come up with a project budget."},{"startTime":188.379,"endTime":190.989,"body":"Chances are a budget was"},{"startTime":188.379,"endTime":190.989,"body":"done by somebody else."},{"startTime":191.049,"endTime":193.704,"body":"Well, there's gonna be a lot"},{"startTime":191.049,"endTime":193.704,"body":"of gaps I would expect so may"},{"startTime":193.704,"endTime":195.114,"body":"maybe we hit some of those gaps."},{"startTime":195.164,"endTime":197.499,"body":"GA gaps positive and negative."},{"startTime":197.499,"endTime":197.799,"body":"Both."},{"startTime":197.799,"endTime":199.869,"body":"There'll be, there'll be pros and"},{"startTime":197.799,"endTime":199.869,"body":"cons in here that we can highlight."},{"startTime":199.959,"endTime":200.169,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":200.229,"endTime":201.819,"body":"In, in the spirit of arguing Agile."},{"startTime":202.179,"endTime":205.159,"body":"I kind of wanted to dig into my"},{"startTime":202.179,"endTime":205.159,"body":"off-the-cuff statement  about"},{"startTime":205.159,"endTime":206.509,"body":"the position being in decline."},{"startTime":206.509,"endTime":210.289,"body":"Cause I could if we're, if we're, again,"},{"startTime":206.509,"endTime":210.289,"body":"if we're in the spirit of arguing agile"},{"startTime":210.689,"endTime":214.439,"body":"let's dissect that for a second because"},{"startTime":210.689,"endTime":214.439,"body":"I, I did absolutely zero research."},{"startTime":214.439,"endTime":215.759,"body":"This is just my gut feeling."},{"startTime":216.119,"endTime":219.999,"body":"And then, and then we said, we, and"},{"startTime":216.119,"endTime":219.999,"body":"we said that in the, Podcast with"},{"startTime":219.999,"endTime":222.859,"body":"Trisha, where Jessica challenged"},{"startTime":219.999,"endTime":222.859,"body":"us, is like, well, you're not"},{"startTime":222.859,"endTime":224.179,"body":"hearing any kind of signal."},{"startTime":224.329,"endTime":226.569,"body":"Like what, what do you like, where"},{"startTime":224.329,"endTime":226.569,"body":"are you getting the numbers about"},{"startTime":226.569,"endTime":228.039,"body":"position decline and stuff from?"},{"startTime":228.039,"endTime":229.599,"body":"Like, are you just feeling"},{"startTime":228.039,"endTime":229.599,"body":"pulling it outta the air?"},{"startTime":229.599,"endTime":230.499,"body":"Cause that's what you feel."},{"startTime":230.889,"endTime":234.654,"body":"And  Trisha's example was something along"},{"startTime":230.889,"endTime":234.654,"body":"the lines of like, well every company that"},{"startTime":234.654,"endTime":237.834,"body":"I work at that's a small company, like"},{"startTime":234.654,"endTime":237.834,"body":"somebody plays a role as a scrum master"},{"startTime":237.834,"endTime":242.809,"body":"that only the biggest, a big companies"},{"startTime":237.834,"endTime":242.809,"body":"hire Scrum Masters, and then how many"},{"startTime":242.809,"endTime":246.149,"body":"times do the big companies get it right"},{"startTime":242.809,"endTime":246.149,"body":"or they're where they're not actually"},{"startTime":246.149,"endTime":250.439,"body":"looking for a project manager named"},{"startTime":246.149,"endTime":250.439,"body":"Scrum Masters, so they can tick a box."},{"startTime":250.439,"endTime":253.314,"body":"They actually want to delegate that"},{"startTime":250.439,"endTime":253.314,"body":"leadership to a team and they bring on"},{"startTime":253.319,"endTime":255.084,"body":"the correct type of position to do that."},{"startTime":255.089,"endTime":259.584,"body":"Like, so, so like, it wasn't looking"},{"startTime":255.089,"endTime":259.584,"body":"good the more we dug into it, so we had"},{"startTime":259.589,"endTime":261.264,"body":"a good back and forth on that podcast."},{"startTime":261.474,"endTime":264.834,"body":"So I guess the opening question is, do"},{"startTime":261.474,"endTime":264.834,"body":"you think that the positions, position"},{"startTime":264.834,"endTime":268.644,"body":"positions or in declining, you think"},{"startTime":264.834,"endTime":268.644,"body":"Scrum master Agile coach are in different"},{"startTime":268.884,"endTime":270.774,"body":"stages, or are they kind of the same?"},{"startTime":270.774,"endTime":271.254,"body":"What do you think?"},{"startTime":272.454,"endTime":276.354,"body":"What I've seen lately is a an"},{"startTime":272.454,"endTime":276.354,"body":"elevation of the scrum master"},{"startTime":276.354,"endTime":278.774,"body":"role into more of a team coach."},{"startTime":279.369,"endTime":281.739,"body":"So now you know, do you"},{"startTime":279.369,"endTime":281.739,"body":"need an agile coach?"},{"startTime":281.739,"endTime":285.009,"body":"Because we have a scrum master and"},{"startTime":281.739,"endTime":285.009,"body":"they're a team coach and they can"},{"startTime":285.009,"endTime":289.899,"body":"coach, and then the scrum guide, the"},{"startTime":285.009,"endTime":289.899,"body":"latest revision of it so that the scrum"},{"startTime":289.899,"endTime":293.799,"body":"master should coach the organization,"},{"startTime":289.899,"endTime":293.799,"body":"the product people, et cetera."},{"startTime":294.009,"endTime":296.139,"body":"So then what's the Agile coach doing?"},{"startTime":296.259,"endTime":296.619,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":296.739,"endTime":301.689,"body":"So what I'm seeing is more Scrum"},{"startTime":296.739,"endTime":301.689,"body":"masters being asked to do what"},{"startTime":302.049,"endTime":303.519,"body":"originally was in the realm of."},{"startTime":304.234,"endTime":305.644,"body":"The agile coaches domain."},{"startTime":305.794,"endTime":305.884,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":306.124,"endTime":306.274,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":306.594,"endTime":309.834,"body":"So that, that's what"},{"startTime":306.594,"endTime":309.834,"body":"I'm seeing as a trend."},{"startTime":309.864,"endTime":314.244,"body":"However, I'm also speaking to"},{"startTime":309.864,"endTime":314.244,"body":"these people day in, day out."},{"startTime":314.249,"endTime":317.994,"body":"I'm also seeing a struggle there"},{"startTime":314.249,"endTime":317.994,"body":"because the Scrum masters do not"},{"startTime":317.994,"endTime":319.494,"body":"know how to coach the organization."},{"startTime":319.499,"endTime":319.584,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":319.584,"endTime":320.544,"body":"You don't just simply."},{"startTime":321.099,"endTime":324.369,"body":"Get that one day because Scrum guide"},{"startTime":321.099,"endTime":324.369,"body":"came out and said you should do that."},{"startTime":324.429,"endTime":324.579,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":325.029,"endTime":326.019,"body":"So I am seeing that."},{"startTime":326.019,"endTime":329.319,"body":"I'm also coming back to the original"},{"startTime":326.019,"endTime":329.319,"body":"point about project management."},{"startTime":329.829,"endTime":336.369,"body":"I'm seeing some project managers come up"},{"startTime":329.829,"endTime":336.369,"body":"and struggle on the, on the empathy side."},{"startTime":336.374,"endTime":336.669,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":336.669,"endTime":341.824,"body":"For, for teams and letting the teams"},{"startTime":336.669,"endTime":341.824,"body":"become autonomous come up with the"},{"startTime":341.824,"endTime":347.014,"body":"how themselves, because if you're a"},{"startTime":341.824,"endTime":347.014,"body":"traditional project manager, you're used"},{"startTime":347.014,"endTime":349.504,"body":"to creating a schedule for the team."},{"startTime":350.174,"endTime":353.834,"body":"You're used to creating what they"},{"startTime":350.174,"endTime":353.834,"body":"call work breakdown packages."},{"startTime":353.864,"endTime":353.954,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":354.194,"endTime":357.464,"body":"So you take a piece of functionality,"},{"startTime":354.194,"endTime":357.464,"body":"say, this is what you're working on."},{"startTime":357.464,"endTime":361.522,"body":"So as a project manager, I would"},{"startTime":357.464,"endTime":361.522,"body":"come to you, Brian, as a team member"},{"startTime":361.522,"endTime":364.552,"body":"and say, Hey, Brian, I've worked"},{"startTime":361.522,"endTime":364.552,"body":"out a work breakdown package for"},{"startTime":364.552,"endTime":365.692,"body":"you, here's what it looks like."},{"startTime":365.992,"endTime":368.777,"body":"And You know, you'll deliver"},{"startTime":365.992,"endTime":368.777,"body":"this by the end of July."},{"startTime":368.777,"endTime":369.047,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":369.587,"endTime":372.077,"body":"And you look at me and say, are you crazy?"},{"startTime":372.137,"endTime":373.697,"body":"You've never done this work before."},{"startTime":374.027,"endTime":375.977,"body":"There's no way it can be"},{"startTime":374.027,"endTime":375.977,"body":"done by the end of July."},{"startTime":375.982,"endTime":378.497,"body":"And I have a ton of questions"},{"startTime":375.982,"endTime":378.497,"body":"about it to begin with, right?"},{"startTime":378.552,"endTime":379.572,"body":"In, in practice."},{"startTime":379.572,"endTime":382.542,"body":"What I'm seeing though, this is"},{"startTime":379.572,"endTime":382.542,"body":"interesting, this little bit next,"},{"startTime":382.602,"endTime":384.282,"body":"what I'm seeing is project managers."},{"startTime":384.807,"endTime":386.727,"body":"Are starting to grapple with this."},{"startTime":386.827,"endTime":392.407,"body":"Because they read about agile ways of"},{"startTime":386.827,"endTime":392.407,"body":"working, scrum, et cetera, and they're"},{"startTime":392.407,"endTime":396.007,"body":"having to think about that and say, well,"},{"startTime":392.407,"endTime":396.007,"body":"maybe I'm not the right person to come up"},{"startTime":396.007,"endTime":397.897,"body":"with this stuff and dictate to the team."},{"startTime":398.017,"endTime":398.107,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":398.407,"endTime":401.077,"body":"But what do I do in instead?"},{"startTime":401.197,"endTime":403.897,"body":"Because remember, they didn't"},{"startTime":401.197,"endTime":403.897,"body":"get the scrum master training"},{"startTime":403.897,"endTime":404.947,"body":"that Scrum master would've."},{"startTime":405.022,"endTime":405.922,"body":"Got right."},{"startTime":407.062,"endTime":408.262,"body":"Psm, csm, whatever it is."},{"startTime":408.442,"endTime":409.732,"body":"They didn't get that necessarily."},{"startTime":409.732,"endTime":412.762,"body":"What, what happened instead is"},{"startTime":409.732,"endTime":412.762,"body":"they were simply given a new title."},{"startTime":412.912,"endTime":412.972,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":413.212,"endTime":415.617,"body":"So in our new org reorg you, Mr."},{"startTime":415.617,"endTime":418.587,"body":"Project manager, miss project"},{"startTime":415.617,"endTime":418.587,"body":"manager, you are now a Scrum master."},{"startTime":418.807,"endTime":421.197,"body":"But don't worry, there's no pay"},{"startTime":418.807,"endTime":421.197,"body":"cuts or anything, even though"},{"startTime":421.197,"endTime":422.517,"body":"the word manager's gone mm-hmm."},{"startTime":422.847,"endTime":423.651,"body":"From your title."},{"startTime":423.654,"endTime":427.21,"body":"That's a long way to say there's"},{"startTime":423.654,"endTime":427.21,"body":"a real mishmash out there."},{"startTime":427.59,"endTime":430.44,"body":"So coming back to the,"},{"startTime":427.59,"endTime":430.44,"body":"the original premise of."},{"startTime":430.845,"endTime":435.435,"body":"A scrum master who's been out of work"},{"startTime":430.845,"endTime":435.435,"body":"for a bit, should they consider Right?"},{"startTime":435.465,"endTime":437.895,"body":"I, I think we're just starting"},{"startTime":435.465,"endTime":437.895,"body":"to scratch the surface."},{"startTime":437.985,"endTime":441.615,"body":"You gotta run into these issues"},{"startTime":437.985,"endTime":441.615,"body":"and you need to kind of work"},{"startTime":441.615,"endTime":444.345,"body":"through that for yourself because"},{"startTime":441.615,"endTime":444.345,"body":"it's different for everyone."},{"startTime":444.775,"endTime":449.792,"body":"And see if being a project manager and"},{"startTime":444.775,"endTime":449.792,"body":"all of the stuff that's and all that,"},{"startTime":449.792,"endTime":451.682,"body":"that it, it entails, is that for you?"},{"startTime":452.252,"endTime":452.582,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":452.942,"endTime":454.442,"body":"Are you comfortable working out?"},{"startTime":454.607,"endTime":455.717,"body":"Project finances."},{"startTime":455.777,"endTime":459.257,"body":"Are you comfortable dealing"},{"startTime":455.777,"endTime":459.257,"body":"with all these subsidiary plans?"},{"startTime":459.257,"endTime":460.427,"body":"Are you comfortable working with."},{"startTime":461.037,"endTime":462.237,"body":"Contractors, right?"},{"startTime":462.537,"endTime":465.177,"body":"So if you're comfortable with all of"},{"startTime":462.537,"endTime":465.177,"body":"those things, you'll, you'll be fine."},{"startTime":465.207,"endTime":470.727,"body":"If you're not, and you're more focused"},{"startTime":465.207,"endTime":470.727,"body":"on letting the team build up and building"},{"startTime":470.727,"endTime":475.917,"body":"trust and, and getting teams to perform"},{"startTime":470.727,"endTime":475.917,"body":"their best, I, you may struggle a little."},{"startTime":476.067,"endTime":476.397,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":476.407,"endTime":478.657,"body":"I kind of was thinking we'd go"},{"startTime":476.407,"endTime":478.657,"body":"down this road on the podcast a"},{"startTime":478.657,"endTime":480.397,"body":"little bit later, to be honest."},{"startTime":480.397,"endTime":480.427,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":480.617,"endTime":485.057,"body":", since you're here now I, one of the"},{"startTime":480.617,"endTime":485.057,"body":"reasons that I was that I suggested"},{"startTime":485.057,"endTime":487.637,"body":"that the position was in decline or"},{"startTime":485.057,"endTime":487.637,"body":"not, which I'm not sure, I'm not sure"},{"startTime":487.637,"endTime":491.482,"body":"if I got your answer on that, is I"},{"startTime":487.637,"endTime":491.482,"body":"think that there are some really,"},{"startTime":491.482,"endTime":493.312,"body":"really great scrum masters out there."},{"startTime":493.312,"endTime":496.372,"body":"Like there, there are scrum masters"},{"startTime":493.312,"endTime":496.372,"body":"that I watch, do their work and move"},{"startTime":496.372,"endTime":499.797,"body":"through the organization and build"},{"startTime":496.372,"endTime":499.797,"body":"real solid ties with people  and"},{"startTime":499.797,"endTime":502.817,"body":"I see them work and because I'm me"},{"startTime":499.797,"endTime":502.817,"body":"and I'm comparing myself to the way"},{"startTime":502.822,"endTime":504.287,"body":"they work, I'm like, oh my goodness."},{"startTime":504.287,"endTime":506.327,"body":"I'm like, I'm, I'm years away from."},{"startTime":506.577,"endTime":511.407,"body":"Like achieving that level of effectiveness"},{"startTime":506.577,"endTime":511.407,"body":"as a scrum master, that they can"},{"startTime":511.407,"endTime":516.267,"body":"just like forge those interpersonal"},{"startTime":511.407,"endTime":516.267,"body":"relationships and like shortcut a lot"},{"startTime":516.267,"endTime":519.397,"body":"of the teams working together and  the"},{"startTime":516.267,"endTime":519.397,"body":"type of scrum master that does like a"},{"startTime":519.402,"endTime":522.907,"body":"large room facilitation where they are"},{"startTime":519.402,"endTime":522.907,"body":"getting people up out of their chairs"},{"startTime":522.912,"endTime":525.167,"body":"and moving around and getting people"},{"startTime":522.912,"endTime":525.167,"body":"to laugh and, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":525.167,"endTime":527.437,"body":"By the end of the training or the"},{"startTime":525.167,"endTime":527.437,"body":"end of the day or whatever, they,"},{"startTime":527.677,"endTime":531.847,"body":"they come out a, a small group"},{"startTime":527.677,"endTime":531.847,"body":"that is small, much stronger."},{"startTime":532.572,"endTime":534.372,"body":"Interpersonal ties as a group, right?"},{"startTime":534.372,"endTime":538.002,"body":"Because of the individual's facilitation"},{"startTime":534.372,"endTime":538.002,"body":"skills that was facilitating"},{"startTime":538.002,"endTime":542.412,"body":"the retrospective or planning"},{"startTime":538.002,"endTime":542.412,"body":"session or whatever it was, right?"},{"startTime":542.622,"endTime":546.829,"body":"So if you're gonna draw down the market,"},{"startTime":542.622,"endTime":546.829,"body":"Let's say we have a 50% reduction in"},{"startTime":546.834,"endTime":550.019,"body":"jobs over the next 10 years, even 50%."},{"startTime":550.109,"endTime":550.409,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":550.469,"endTime":554.969,"body":"So like, and what I'm thinking is the,"},{"startTime":550.469,"endTime":554.969,"body":"those people who are absolutely excellent"},{"startTime":554.969,"endTime":558.329,"body":"and have the strong facilitation and"},{"startTime":554.969,"endTime":558.329,"body":"communication skills, What I think"},{"startTime":558.329,"endTime":562.739,"body":"of is like the most advanced skill,"},{"startTime":558.329,"endTime":562.739,"body":"it's gonna be difficult to compete"},{"startTime":562.979,"endTime":564.779,"body":"with people that have those skills."},{"startTime":565.589,"endTime":569.939,"body":"I mean, I guess you could say like,"},{"startTime":565.589,"endTime":569.939,"body":"we'll just learn to communicate better"},{"startTime":570.029,"endTime":572.819,"body":"and learn how to be a people person."},{"startTime":572.879,"endTime":576.359,"body":"I, I guess, Like that's a, that's"},{"startTime":572.879,"endTime":576.359,"body":"a, that's not, that's not useful."},{"startTime":576.569,"endTime":576.929,"body":"Like it's, yeah."},{"startTime":577.128,"endTime":579.398,"body":"I bring that up because it was"},{"startTime":577.128,"endTime":579.398,"body":"something you said earlier that,"},{"startTime":579.458,"endTime":584.138,"body":"that made me think, Hey, what makes"},{"startTime":579.458,"endTime":584.138,"body":"you a really good project manager?"},{"startTime":584.528,"endTime":584.798,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":584.858,"endTime":587.318,"body":"Doesn't necessarily make you"},{"startTime":584.858,"endTime":587.318,"body":"a really good scrum master."},{"startTime":587.858,"endTime":589.898,"body":"And then vice versa, you know?"},{"startTime":589.928,"endTime":590.138,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":590.138,"endTime":591.608,"body":"And the opposite"},{"startTime":590.138,"endTime":591.608,"body":"direction applies as well."},{"startTime":591.608,"endTime":594.218,"body":"So I, when you were, when you were"},{"startTime":591.608,"endTime":594.218,"body":"talking, I was thinking to myself,"},{"startTime":594.518,"endTime":597.408,"body":"boy is it possible to take one of"},{"startTime":594.518,"endTime":597.408,"body":"these project managers and then"},{"startTime":597.408,"endTime":601.923,"body":"make them somehow develop some"},{"startTime":597.408,"endTime":601.923,"body":"kind of curriculum or training or"},{"startTime":601.923,"endTime":606.063,"body":"something that helps them adjust"},{"startTime":601.923,"endTime":606.063,"body":"into being an excellent scrum master?"},{"startTime":606.333,"endTime":608.183,"body":"You know, maybe they do."},{"startTime":608.688,"endTime":612.918,"body":"Some of the planning, cause the, all the,"},{"startTime":608.688,"endTime":612.918,"body":"all the, the planning that you got, that"},{"startTime":612.918,"endTime":615.468,"body":"you were talking about, we'll get into"},{"startTime":612.918,"endTime":615.468,"body":"that a little bit later in this podcast."},{"startTime":616.158,"endTime":618.438,"body":"All that high level planning is useful."},{"startTime":618.858,"endTime":620.688,"body":"Planning, like the four letter word plan."},{"startTime":620.778,"endTime":620.868,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":621.108,"endTime":625.128,"body":"Like the, the super deep, low level"},{"startTime":621.108,"endTime":625.128,"body":"planning to build all of the whatever"},{"startTime":625.128,"endTime":627.888,"body":"and then build all of this and then"},{"startTime":625.128,"endTime":627.888,"body":"build all of that and then ship nothing."},{"startTime":628.068,"endTime":628.308,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":628.308,"endTime":631.458,"body":"That, that four letter plan word"},{"startTime":628.308,"endTime":631.458,"body":"that I'm not talking about, that"},{"startTime":631.458,"endTime":634.338,"body":"I'm talking about this high level"},{"startTime":631.458,"endTime":634.338,"body":"stuff that connects you, you and"},{"startTime":634.338,"endTime":636.843,"body":"your teams to the business via plans."},{"startTime":636.938,"endTime":638.378,"body":"The project managers know how to do that."},{"startTime":638.378,"endTime":641.568,"body":"The scrum masters generally don't"},{"startTime":638.378,"endTime":641.568,"body":"know how to do that, but if there's"},{"startTime":641.568,"endTime":644.628,"body":"a way I can teach somebody all"},{"startTime":641.568,"endTime":644.628,"body":"those high level skills, all those"},{"startTime":644.628,"endTime":650.598,"body":"planning skills, and then teach them"},{"startTime":644.628,"endTime":650.598,"body":"the scrum master skill set as well?"},{"startTime":650.653,"endTime":651.283,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":651.283,"endTime":652.183,"body":"Is there a path there?"},{"startTime":652.213,"endTime":652.993,"body":"I don't, I, I don't know."},{"startTime":653.233,"endTime":656.533,"body":"That's kind of where I'm going in my,"},{"startTime":653.233,"endTime":656.533,"body":"because the, the type, the type of person"},{"startTime":656.713,"endTime":658.483,"body":"that needs a plan for every situation."},{"startTime":659.423,"endTime":663.458,"body":"It's gonna be a bit of an adjustment"},{"startTime":659.423,"endTime":663.458,"body":"to moving over into this world"},{"startTime":663.458,"endTime":667.388,"body":"where you basically could, could"},{"startTime":663.458,"endTime":667.388,"body":"be asked to operate with no plan."},{"startTime":667.988,"endTime":669.428,"body":"Yeah, I, I agree with that."},{"startTime":669.478,"endTime":674.143,"body":"I think if you're a traditional project"},{"startTime":669.478,"endTime":674.143,"body":"manager moving into the scrum master"},{"startTime":674.203,"endTime":680.008,"body":"realm, Dealing with uncertainty and,"},{"startTime":674.203,"endTime":680.008,"body":"and accepting levels uncertainty."},{"startTime":680.098,"endTime":680.188,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":680.188,"endTime":681.448,"body":"That's gonna be a challenge for you."},{"startTime":681.598,"endTime":681.748,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":681.808,"endTime":683.728,"body":"Because you're not used to that, right?"},{"startTime":683.788,"endTime":686.878,"body":"You're used to planning things"},{"startTime":683.788,"endTime":686.878,"body":"out and then you're used to"},{"startTime":686.938,"endTime":688.678,"body":"basically executing to that plan."},{"startTime":689.048,"endTime":692.648,"body":"So the unknowns that's gonna be"},{"startTime":689.048,"endTime":692.648,"body":"the discomfort for somebody who"},{"startTime":692.648,"endTime":697.508,"body":"comes that direction, which someone"},{"startTime":692.648,"endTime":697.508,"body":"going the other way is going to"},{"startTime":697.508,"endTime":699.488,"body":"grapple with differently, right?"},{"startTime":699.488,"endTime":701.078,"body":"They're gonna say, well,"},{"startTime":699.488,"endTime":701.078,"body":"we don't need a plan."},{"startTime":701.078,"endTime":702.638,"body":"We'll figure it out, as we go."},{"startTime":702.668,"endTime":706.468,"body":"Yeah, maybe, I mean maybe, but I, I"},{"startTime":702.668,"endTime":706.468,"body":"think of the, I have to, I have to"},{"startTime":706.468,"endTime":711.448,"body":"not think of like obstinate, like"},{"startTime":706.468,"endTime":711.448,"body":"stereotypical project managers."},{"startTime":711.748,"endTime":715.348,"body":"I have to think of like the actual"},{"startTime":711.748,"endTime":715.348,"body":"really good project managers that I"},{"startTime":715.348,"endTime":719.098,"body":"have worked with who are communicating"},{"startTime":715.348,"endTime":719.098,"body":"with external vendors and communicating"},{"startTime":719.098,"endTime":722.373,"body":"with partners and, you know what I"},{"startTime":719.098,"endTime":722.373,"body":"mean, partner organizations Yeah."},{"startTime":722.373,"endTime":723.063,"body":"And stuff like that."},{"startTime":723.253,"endTime":728.833,"body":"They are very good at tracking things"},{"startTime":723.253,"endTime":728.833,"body":"down and, and at, at setting expectations."},{"startTime":729.253,"endTime":732.883,"body":"So they would seek first to get"},{"startTime":729.253,"endTime":732.883,"body":"the, all the expectations out"},{"startTime":732.883,"endTime":734.653,"body":"onto the table, I would think."},{"startTime":734.903,"endTime":738.958,"body":"So maybe maybe they would have a"},{"startTime":734.903,"endTime":738.958,"body":"little easier time than scrum master"},{"startTime":738.958,"endTime":740.218,"body":"going in the opposite direction."},{"startTime":740.878,"endTime":741.358,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":741.363,"endTime":743.638,"body":"I, I'm, I'm kind of on"},{"startTime":741.363,"endTime":743.638,"body":"the fence about this one."},{"startTime":743.758,"endTime":744.118,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":744.118,"endTime":745.613,"body":"I mean, Okay."},{"startTime":745.613,"endTime":746.958,"body":"So let me give you an example."},{"startTime":746.958,"endTime":751.638,"body":"So one might be simple things like what"},{"startTime":746.958,"endTime":751.638,"body":"is the, what does the customer need?"},{"startTime":751.638,"endTime":751.758,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":752.088,"endTime":757.428,"body":"So a, a scrum master would be more"},{"startTime":752.088,"endTime":757.428,"body":"akin to saying, let's figure out"},{"startTime":757.428,"endTime":760.818,"body":"what they need for now for the next."},{"startTime":761.748,"endTime":766.298,"body":"Two, three sprints maybe, and we'll"},{"startTime":761.748,"endTime":766.298,"body":"continue to refine that as we go forward."},{"startTime":766.328,"endTime":766.478,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":766.778,"endTime":771.188,"body":"That kind of mindset is harder for a"},{"startTime":766.778,"endTime":771.188,"body":"traditional project manager because"},{"startTime":771.188,"endTime":775.843,"body":"they're used to getting everything"},{"startTime":771.188,"endTime":775.843,"body":"documented, PRDs getting them signed off."},{"startTime":775.848,"endTime":775.903,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":775.933,"endTime":778.063,"body":"Things like that, that there's"},{"startTime":775.933,"endTime":778.063,"body":"a little adjustment there."},{"startTime":778.513,"endTime":782.183,"body":"I'm not saying it can't be done, it can't"},{"startTime":778.513,"endTime":782.183,"body":"be overcome with the right training,"},{"startTime":782.243,"endTime":784.193,"body":"but training's one thing, right."},{"startTime":785.048,"endTime":787.028,"body":"Shifting the mindset is another."},{"startTime":787.328,"endTime":788.528,"body":"So they have to accept that."},{"startTime":788.668,"endTime":792.368,"body":"And, and it's that uncertainty, like the"},{"startTime":788.668,"endTime":792.368,"body":"customer hasn't told me everything they"},{"startTime":792.368,"endTime":794.738,"body":"need because they themselves may not know."},{"startTime":794.743,"endTime":794.928,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":795.008,"endTime":795.638,"body":"And I'm okay with that."},{"startTime":795.638,"endTime":795.758,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":796.088,"endTime":799.988,"body":"But I have just enough to be getting on"},{"startTime":796.088,"endTime":799.988,"body":"with that's just one example of where I"},{"startTime":799.993,"endTime":804.738,"body":"think a traditional PM needs to adjust as"},{"startTime":799.993,"endTime":804.738,"body":"they get toward becoming a scrum master."},{"startTime":804.864,"endTime":809.294,"body":"So like through, through the decline"},{"startTime":804.864,"endTime":809.294,"body":"section it sounds like Om is undecided"},{"startTime":809.299,"endTime":813.369,"body":"and I'm, I'm firmly in the camp of"},{"startTime":809.299,"endTime":813.369,"body":"the positions being in, in decline."},{"startTime":813.449,"endTime":816.492,"body":"I could be convinced that you will"},{"startTime":813.449,"endTime":816.492,"body":"still have Scrum Masters at probably"},{"startTime":816.492,"endTime":820.552,"body":"the biggest organizations and then"},{"startTime":816.492,"endTime":820.552,"body":"safe, if you count SAFe as agile."},{"startTime":820.802,"endTime":825.122,"body":"And, but agile coaches especially"},{"startTime":820.802,"endTime":825.122,"body":"these people with really advanced"},{"startTime":825.122,"endTime":828.662,"body":"facilitation skills that I was talking"},{"startTime":825.122,"endTime":828.662,"body":"about, maybe they would all move into"},{"startTime":828.667,"endTime":832.312,"body":"contracting and they you wouldn't have"},{"startTime":828.667,"endTime":832.312,"body":"really permanent employee agile coaches."},{"startTime":832.317,"endTime":835.392,"body":"They would just basically be"},{"startTime":832.317,"endTime":835.392,"body":"pools of contractors that you"},{"startTime":835.397,"endTime":836.892,"body":"would call up you know, as needed."},{"startTime":837.012,"endTime":837.162,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":837.162,"endTime":839.082,"body":"Maybe, maybe that, maybe"},{"startTime":837.162,"endTime":839.082,"body":"that's what it becomes."},{"startTime":839.082,"endTime":843.832,"body":"It becomes this temporary type of role"},{"startTime":839.082,"endTime":843.832,"body":"like management consultant type of deal."},{"startTime":844.357,"endTime":844.837,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":845.707,"endTime":848.587,"body":"Yeah, just outsource that, that"},{"startTime":845.707,"endTime":848.587,"body":"particular requirement maybe."},{"startTime":848.592,"endTime":848.857,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":848.947,"endTime":852.632,"body":"Yeah, that's possible until Mackenzie"},{"startTime":848.947,"endTime":852.632,"body":"or whoever corners the market on that."},{"startTime":853.907,"endTime":857.057,"body":"And delivers their 70 point you"},{"startTime":853.907,"endTime":857.057,"body":"know, 70 page PowerPoint deck."},{"startTime":857.057,"endTime":857.477,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":857.537,"endTime":857.957,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":858.047,"endTime":860.867,"body":"Did I tell you I went through a"},{"startTime":858.047,"endTime":860.867,"body":"McKinsey presentation recently?"},{"startTime":860.867,"endTime":860.927,"body":"No."},{"startTime":861.257,"endTime":861.467,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":861.467,"endTime":863.327,"body":"I went through a McKinsey"},{"startTime":861.467,"endTime":863.327,"body":"presentation recently in their"},{"startTime":863.327,"endTime":866.912,"body":"slide deck was really, it was a, it"},{"startTime":863.327,"endTime":866.912,"body":"was, it was a thing of art there."},{"startTime":866.912,"endTime":867.632,"body":"They slack."},{"startTime":867.722,"endTime":868.292,"body":"It was slick."},{"startTime":868.292,"endTime":870.302,"body":"It wasn't the seven S's"},{"startTime":868.292,"endTime":870.302,"body":"by any chance, was it?"},{"startTime":870.602,"endTime":870.692,"body":"No."},{"startTime":870.692,"endTime":871.592,"body":"I can't remember what it was."},{"startTime":871.642,"endTime":873.682,"body":"Anyway, the world of"},{"startTime":871.642,"endTime":873.682,"body":"management consulting."},{"startTime":874.103,"endTime":874.283,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":874.288,"endTime":877.188,"body":"So so at the top of the podcast"},{"startTime":874.288,"endTime":877.188,"body":"we said what, what are some of the"},{"startTime":877.218,"endTime":878.418,"body":"differences that you look out for?"},{"startTime":878.418,"endTime":882.128,"body":"If you're scrum master what might be"},{"startTime":878.418,"endTime":882.128,"body":"missing from your experience, or what,"},{"startTime":882.128,"endTime":885.758,"body":"what, what additional skills might you"},{"startTime":882.128,"endTime":885.758,"body":"need to jump into project management?"},{"startTime":885.808,"endTime":889.478,"body":"I think the first thing that jumps"},{"startTime":885.808,"endTime":889.478,"body":"to mind for me is project budgeting."},{"startTime":889.688,"endTime":894.788,"body":"You know, if you're not familiar with"},{"startTime":889.688,"endTime":894.788,"body":"basic accounting yeah, you really need to."},{"startTime":895.428,"endTime":896.328,"body":"Get with that."},{"startTime":896.778,"endTime":898.488,"body":"Just, you don't have to be an expert."},{"startTime":898.488,"endTime":900.278,"body":"We're not calling for CPAs here."},{"startTime":900.278,"endTime":900.598,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":900.683,"endTime":906.878,"body":"Just simple, basic cost accounting"},{"startTime":900.683,"endTime":906.878,"body":"simple terms in finance."},{"startTime":907.298,"endTime":910.658,"body":"If you do that, I think you"},{"startTime":907.298,"endTime":910.658,"body":"are setting yourself up for"},{"startTime":910.658,"endTime":913.088,"body":"success as a project manager."},{"startTime":913.268,"endTime":913.598,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":913.608,"endTime":917.508,"body":"We talk all the time that we are"},{"startTime":913.608,"endTime":917.508,"body":"gonna do an episode on budgeting."},{"startTime":918.108,"endTime":919.098,"body":"Budgeting and finance."},{"startTime":919.158,"endTime":919.248,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":919.253,"endTime":920.778,"body":"Software, budgeting and, and finance."},{"startTime":921.108,"endTime":924.108,"body":"And you, you said cost accounting,"},{"startTime":921.108,"endTime":924.108,"body":"but also in my head, in the back of my"},{"startTime":924.108,"endTime":927.278,"body":"head is like, it'd be nice if you knew"},{"startTime":924.108,"endTime":927.278,"body":"about throughput accounting as well."},{"startTime":927.738,"endTime":927.828,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":927.828,"endTime":929.988,"body":"And that you could show the,"},{"startTime":927.828,"endTime":929.988,"body":"and you could, you could."},{"startTime":930.483,"endTime":936.273,"body":"Talk through the difference in an informed"},{"startTime":930.483,"endTime":936.273,"body":"if, if not, if not in expert manner, at"},{"startTime":936.273,"endTime":940.463,"body":"least in an informed manner to say like,"},{"startTime":936.273,"endTime":940.463,"body":"Hey, these are cost accounting great."},{"startTime":940.463,"endTime":942.653,"body":"It's great you got your inventory"},{"startTime":940.463,"endTime":942.653,"body":"and your cost of goods, or"},{"startTime":942.658,"endTime":944.753,"body":"whatever, and you know, that's fine."},{"startTime":944.903,"endTime":948.383,"body":"But also, wouldn't it be better if"},{"startTime":944.903,"endTime":948.383,"body":"you had some indicators that were."},{"startTime":948.833,"endTime":952.163,"body":"Like not lagging if you had a,"},{"startTime":948.833,"endTime":952.163,"body":"like a couple leading indications."},{"startTime":952.163,"endTime":952.223,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":952.253,"endTime":959.743,"body":"Or  if you could hone in your"},{"startTime":952.253,"endTime":959.743,"body":"financials as close as today so you"},{"startTime":959.743,"endTime":961.663,"body":"can see a day-to-day in real time."},{"startTime":962.228,"endTime":965.258,"body":"Flow of money through your system,"},{"startTime":962.228,"endTime":965.258,"body":"wouldn't that be a little better?"},{"startTime":965.258,"endTime":969.248,"body":"And then as you kind of seed that"},{"startTime":965.258,"endTime":969.248,"body":"in your organization and they start"},{"startTime":969.248,"endTime":971.588,"body":"asking questions, maybe they do a"},{"startTime":969.248,"endTime":971.588,"body":"little research on their own and"},{"startTime":971.588,"endTime":972.973,"body":"come to it with their own expertise."},{"startTime":972.973,"endTime":974.173,"body":"But you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":974.413,"endTime":978.373,"body":"The tracking project costs,"},{"startTime":974.413,"endTime":978.373,"body":"tracking expenses, ensuring that"},{"startTime":978.373,"endTime":980.203,"body":"you stay within a particular budget."},{"startTime":980.363,"endTime":983.063,"body":"I, I would say a lot of Scrum masters"},{"startTime":980.363,"endTime":983.063,"body":"probably don't even have  exposure"},{"startTime":983.273,"endTime":987.433,"body":"to a p and l let alone financial"},{"startTime":983.273,"endTime":987.433,"body":"reporting dealing with invoices,"},{"startTime":987.433,"endTime":991.263,"body":"dealing with procurement vendors"},{"startTime":987.433,"endTime":991.263,"body":"and vendor tools making choices of"},{"startTime":991.263,"endTime":992.853,"body":"build versus buy, stuff like that."},{"startTime":993.223,"endTime":997.033,"body":"And, and I would say this is probably a"},{"startTime":993.223,"endTime":997.033,"body":"reason why a lot of agile transformations"},{"startTime":997.033,"endTime":1001.323,"body":"fail is you don't take this very important"},{"startTime":997.033,"endTime":1001.323,"body":"piece of the business into consideration."},{"startTime":1001.551,"endTime":1004.151,"body":"Yeah, for Scrum Masters, this"},{"startTime":1001.551,"endTime":1004.151,"body":"is something that requires a bit"},{"startTime":1004.151,"endTime":1007.331,"body":"of effort on your part, but it's"},{"startTime":1004.151,"endTime":1007.331,"body":"not unassailable by any stretch."},{"startTime":1007.331,"endTime":1009.821,"body":"I mean, you need basic accounting."},{"startTime":1009.826,"endTime":1013.126,"body":"You really don't need to be an"},{"startTime":1009.826,"endTime":1013.126,"body":"expert in finance or anything,"},{"startTime":1013.126,"endTime":1017.011,"body":"but you do need to know concepts"},{"startTime":1013.126,"endTime":1017.011,"body":"like, Net present value, right?"},{"startTime":1017.011,"endTime":1017.761,"body":"Of your project."},{"startTime":1017.761,"endTime":1022.101,"body":"What is the what is the value of a"},{"startTime":1017.761,"endTime":1022.101,"body":"dollar today versus three years from"},{"startTime":1022.101,"endTime":1023.841,"body":"now when the project becomes reality?"},{"startTime":1023.846,"endTime":1026.931,"body":"Tho those things are basic, but"},{"startTime":1023.846,"endTime":1026.931,"body":"you need to understand them."},{"startTime":1026.931,"endTime":1029.811,"body":"At least you have to memorize the"},{"startTime":1026.931,"endTime":1029.811,"body":"formula or anything like that."},{"startTime":1029.811,"endTime":1033.191,"body":"I mean, the, these are, there's"},{"startTime":1029.811,"endTime":1033.191,"body":"calculators available for you but you"},{"startTime":1033.191,"endTime":1035.271,"body":"do need to have the concepts down and."},{"startTime":1035.741,"endTime":1036.581,"body":"They can be learned."},{"startTime":1036.791,"endTime":1037.001,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1037.511,"endTime":1040.391,"body":"Just be aware that that's a gap"},{"startTime":1037.511,"endTime":1040.391,"body":"though, in your repertoire if you're"},{"startTime":1040.391,"endTime":1042.161,"body":"coming in from the scrum master camp."},{"startTime":1042.491,"endTime":1044.231,"body":"Aspiring to be a project manager."},{"startTime":1044.381,"endTime":1044.621,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1045.191,"endTime":1045.401,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1045.401,"endTime":1048.771,"body":"The other thing that you mentioned before"},{"startTime":1045.401,"endTime":1048.771,"body":"we got into this category was the, the"},{"startTime":1048.771,"endTime":1052.671,"body":"different levels of project planning,"},{"startTime":1048.771,"endTime":1052.671,"body":"the different levels of planning, and"},{"startTime":1052.671,"endTime":1056.991,"body":"like, again, people here planning, they"},{"startTime":1052.671,"endTime":1056.991,"body":"kind of like, whoa, we, we planning we do"},{"startTime":1057.041,"endTime":1058.901,"body":"well what, just in time planning, right?"},{"startTime":1058.951,"endTime":1062.446,"body":"Well, how do you do just in time"},{"startTime":1058.951,"endTime":1062.446,"body":"planning when your business wants to"},{"startTime":1062.446,"endTime":1065.566,"body":"engage in something brand new that"},{"startTime":1062.446,"endTime":1065.566,"body":"they've never done before, and they"},{"startTime":1065.626,"endTime":1068.956,"body":"are asking you like, well, how many"},{"startTime":1065.626,"endTime":1068.956,"body":"people do you think will need for this?"},{"startTime":1068.956,"endTime":1071.476,"body":"And how long do you think"},{"startTime":1068.956,"endTime":1071.476,"body":"it'll take to spin this up?"},{"startTime":1071.481,"endTime":1076.216,"body":"Like, how do you put any of that together"},{"startTime":1071.481,"endTime":1076.216,"body":"as a scrum master when all of your like"},{"startTime":1076.396,"endTime":1080.326,"body":"normal backlog management and any of"},{"startTime":1076.396,"endTime":1080.326,"body":"that kinda stuff like is now failing you?"},{"startTime":1080.326,"endTime":1083.826,"body":"Cuz  none of this is handled in"},{"startTime":1080.326,"endTime":1083.826,"body":"any of your trainings and Right."},{"startTime":1083.946,"endTime":1088.866,"body":"If you've only ever taken over"},{"startTime":1083.946,"endTime":1088.866,"body":"teams that were already formed."},{"startTime":1089.706,"endTime":1092.346,"body":"And you've never had to put a"},{"startTime":1089.706,"endTime":1092.346,"body":"team together from scratch to do"},{"startTime":1092.346,"endTime":1094.746,"body":"something from scratch or build a"},{"startTime":1092.346,"endTime":1094.746,"body":"product that didn't exist before."},{"startTime":1095.096,"endTime":1099.146,"body":"This may be a big hole in your"},{"startTime":1095.096,"endTime":1099.146,"body":"experience and a project manager"},{"startTime":1099.146,"endTime":1100.226,"body":"has to know how to do this."},{"startTime":1100.226,"endTime":1101.426,"body":"They, they've gotta be able to."},{"startTime":1101.981,"endTime":1105.161,"body":"Estimate a, a project scope and"},{"startTime":1101.981,"endTime":1105.161,"body":"they've gotta be able to write detailed"},{"startTime":1105.161,"endTime":1107.921,"body":"objectives and whatever the thing"},{"startTime":1105.161,"endTime":1107.921,"body":"is before you write a project plan."},{"startTime":1108.071,"endTime":1110.561,"body":"The like a, looks like a primer version."},{"startTime":1110.891,"endTime":1111.001,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1111.001,"endTime":1111.921,"body":"Project charter and stuff."},{"startTime":1111.921,"endTime":1112.521,"body":"A charter, stuff like that."},{"startTime":1112.521,"endTime":1112.991,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1113.051,"endTime":1113.741,"body":"That kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1113.746,"endTime":1114.281,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":1114.371,"endTime":1114.521,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1114.521,"endTime":1116.471,"body":"You've never done any of this"},{"startTime":1114.521,"endTime":1116.471,"body":"before as a scrum master."},{"startTime":1116.531,"endTime":1119.171,"body":"You know that maybe your product"},{"startTime":1116.531,"endTime":1119.171,"body":"people have done this stuff, but"},{"startTime":1119.171,"endTime":1120.911,"body":"you, you certainly probably haven't."},{"startTime":1121.676,"endTime":1123.326,"body":"Certainly probably, I concur with that."},{"startTime":1123.326,"endTime":1127.116,"body":"I, I think the the art of, of coming"},{"startTime":1123.326,"endTime":1127.116,"body":"up with a project charter mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1127.196,"endTime":1129.476,"body":"And the subtleties that, that go into it."},{"startTime":1129.826,"endTime":1133.156,"body":"If you're a scrum master, you may"},{"startTime":1129.826,"endTime":1133.156,"body":"learn some of the techniques and then"},{"startTime":1133.156,"endTime":1136.726,"body":"come up with, let's say a charter"},{"startTime":1133.156,"endTime":1136.726,"body":"that says, this project will take this"},{"startTime":1136.726,"endTime":1138.286,"body":"long and cost this amount of money."},{"startTime":1138.886,"endTime":1142.396,"body":"A savvy project manager on"},{"startTime":1138.886,"endTime":1142.396,"body":"the other hand, May have a"},{"startTime":1142.396,"endTime":1143.746,"body":"slightly different take on that."},{"startTime":1144.146,"endTime":1145.286,"body":"I'm not talking about the numbers."},{"startTime":1145.286,"endTime":1146.426,"body":"Let's say the numbers are fine."},{"startTime":1146.456,"endTime":1146.606,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1146.666,"endTime":1148.256,"body":"It's the presentation, right?"},{"startTime":1148.256,"endTime":1152.826,"body":"So a seasoned pm a project"},{"startTime":1148.256,"endTime":1152.826,"body":"manager might say this project"},{"startTime":1152.826,"endTime":1154.596,"body":"might take between X and Y."},{"startTime":1154.596,"endTime":1154.686,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1154.926,"endTime":1156.906,"body":"As opposed to this long, right?"},{"startTime":1157.116,"endTime":1160.956,"body":"Or it may come in between X"},{"startTime":1157.116,"endTime":1160.956,"body":"dollars and Y dollars, right?"},{"startTime":1160.956,"endTime":1161.046,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1161.286,"endTime":1164.736,"body":"Set themselves up with a range"},{"startTime":1161.286,"endTime":1164.736,"body":"to account for uncertainty and"},{"startTime":1164.741,"endTime":1165.996,"body":"stuff they don't know, et cetera."},{"startTime":1166.276,"endTime":1167.356,"body":"Those subtleties."},{"startTime":1168.076,"endTime":1169.756,"body":"They come from experience largely."},{"startTime":1169.816,"endTime":1170.896,"body":"I mean, you read about 'em."},{"startTime":1170.896,"endTime":1171.406,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1171.736,"endTime":1174.526,"body":"You do them for the first time, you're"},{"startTime":1171.736,"endTime":1174.526,"body":"probably not gonna get it right."},{"startTime":1174.526,"endTime":1175.666,"body":"And then you try it again."},{"startTime":1175.756,"endTime":1175.936,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1176.326,"endTime":1177.526,"body":"So, yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":1177.526,"endTime":1181.066,"body":"I think those, those are just some of"},{"startTime":1177.526,"endTime":1181.066,"body":"the things that you need to grapple with."},{"startTime":1181.276,"endTime":1181.396,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1181.726,"endTime":1185.656,"body":"Day one, I mean, the project doesn't"},{"startTime":1181.726,"endTime":1185.656,"body":"really kick off unless you have a charter."},{"startTime":1185.656,"endTime":1185.657,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1185.986,"endTime":1190.226,"body":"You have to have that which means you have"},{"startTime":1185.986,"endTime":1190.226,"body":"to have your, your team already defined."},{"startTime":1190.526,"endTime":1194.671,"body":"You have to have scope defined, cuz"},{"startTime":1190.526,"endTime":1194.671,"body":"that's, Included in the charter, you"},{"startTime":1194.676,"endTime":1196.531,"body":"have to have executive sponsorship."},{"startTime":1196.561,"endTime":1199.591,"body":"Those executives hopefully will"},{"startTime":1196.561,"endTime":1199.591,"body":"kick off the project for you, right?"},{"startTime":1199.871,"endTime":1201.791,"body":"All of those things as a scrum master."},{"startTime":1202.836,"endTime":1204.246,"body":"You've never done that, right."},{"startTime":1204.246,"endTime":1204.876,"body":"Typically, yeah."},{"startTime":1205.166,"endTime":1210.476,"body":"Typically somebody comes in and does that"},{"startTime":1205.166,"endTime":1210.476,"body":"kind of outside of your repertoire, right?"},{"startTime":1210.476,"endTime":1212.186,"body":"And then you say, well,"},{"startTime":1210.476,"endTime":1212.186,"body":"here's a scrum master."},{"startTime":1212.186,"endTime":1212.366,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1212.516,"endTime":1214.976,"body":"And you know, she's"},{"startTime":1212.516,"endTime":1214.976,"body":"your scrum master team."},{"startTime":1214.976,"endTime":1215.366,"body":"Go."},{"startTime":1215.456,"endTime":1215.546,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1215.546,"endTime":1215.846,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1216.116,"endTime":1219.506,"body":"Whereas as a project manager, you're,"},{"startTime":1216.116,"endTime":1219.506,"body":"you're putting all that together."},{"startTime":1219.506,"endTime":1219.596,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1219.686,"endTime":1220.286,"body":"You're actually."},{"startTime":1221.031,"endTime":1223.851,"body":"Arranging for the project"},{"startTime":1221.031,"endTime":1223.851,"body":"sponsor to come in and kick"},{"startTime":1223.851,"endTime":1225.411,"body":"off the project for you, right?"},{"startTime":1225.471,"endTime":1225.651,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1225.651,"endTime":1229.051,"body":"As and when you're, like I said when"},{"startTime":1225.651,"endTime":1229.051,"body":"you're a scrum master and you enter,"},{"startTime":1229.056,"endTime":1233.341,"body":"like you've, all of those activities"},{"startTime":1229.056,"endTime":1233.341,"body":"have happened around you, right?"},{"startTime":1233.346,"endTime":1236.581,"body":"And you've entered because"},{"startTime":1233.346,"endTime":1236.581,"body":"of those activities."},{"startTime":1236.581,"endTime":1240.626,"body":"So, if you're trying to make an"},{"startTime":1236.581,"endTime":1240.626,"body":"organizational difference, maybe"},{"startTime":1240.631,"endTime":1243.386,"body":"you don't realize it, you're,"},{"startTime":1240.631,"endTime":1243.386,"body":"you're stuck in that financial box."},{"startTime":1244.151,"endTime":1248.951,"body":"that that is basically funding your"},{"startTime":1244.151,"endTime":1248.951,"body":"whole whatever project or whatever it"},{"startTime":1248.951,"endTime":1251.521,"body":"is, project, product like the opposite."},{"startTime":1251.571,"endTime":1254.491,"body":"The, the other side of this,"},{"startTime":1251.571,"endTime":1254.491,"body":"like the, the, the pushback."},{"startTime":1254.521,"endTime":1257.191,"body":"We're not really pushing back against"},{"startTime":1254.521,"endTime":1257.191,"body":"a lot of these concepts just for the"},{"startTime":1257.191,"endTime":1258.391,"body":"purposes of time and getting through it."},{"startTime":1258.481,"endTime":1258.721,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1258.781,"endTime":1262.021,"body":"But the pushback side of this"},{"startTime":1258.781,"endTime":1262.021,"body":"conversation is  if you truly are"},{"startTime":1262.021,"endTime":1267.391,"body":"in a product organization, like the"},{"startTime":1262.021,"endTime":1267.391,"body":"product management will be delegated"},{"startTime":1267.481,"endTime":1268.981,"body":"these tasks and they'll carry it out."},{"startTime":1268.981,"endTime":1273.081,"body":"Like they're, it's not like Product"},{"startTime":1268.981,"endTime":1273.081,"body":"management is delegating to a project"},{"startTime":1273.081,"endTime":1274.911,"body":"manager, Hey, I work at Amazon."},{"startTime":1274.916,"endTime":1276.231,"body":"I gotta launch this new Amazon Alexa."},{"startTime":1276.381,"endTime":1279.292,"body":"I'm gonna go delegate to a project"},{"startTime":1276.381,"endTime":1279.292,"body":"manager how to do all this stuff."},{"startTime":1279.297,"endTime":1282.671,"body":"It's like, no, the, the,"},{"startTime":1279.297,"endTime":1282.671,"body":"the leader in the business."},{"startTime":1283.296,"endTime":1285.096,"body":"Is forming a team."},{"startTime":1285.306,"endTime":1288.306,"body":"They're iterating, they're trying"},{"startTime":1285.306,"endTime":1288.306,"body":"different things, figuring out"},{"startTime":1288.306,"endTime":1291.396,"body":"what works in the market, and then"},{"startTime":1288.306,"endTime":1291.396,"body":"they budget is following that."},{"startTime":1291.426,"endTime":1295.576,"body":"They, they're using much"},{"startTime":1291.426,"endTime":1295.576,"body":"smaller, much faster methods"},{"startTime":1295.936,"endTime":1299.566,"body":"some of this that we're talking about,"},{"startTime":1295.936,"endTime":1299.566,"body":"I'm kind of skimming over digging a"},{"startTime":1299.566,"endTime":1303.796,"body":"little bit deeper into it,  because I, I"},{"startTime":1299.566,"endTime":1303.796,"body":"think the project management profession"},{"startTime":1304.676,"endTime":1310.056,"body":"I don't think project managers are"},{"startTime":1304.676,"endTime":1310.056,"body":"going away at the same rate that, that,"},{"startTime":1310.196,"endTime":1311.726,"body":"that scrum masters are going away."},{"startTime":1312.006,"endTime":1316.811,"body":"I think you, first of all, going back"},{"startTime":1312.006,"endTime":1316.811,"body":"to this idea of the, the numbers of"},{"startTime":1316.811,"endTime":1321.321,"body":"Scrum masters, even slash coaches"},{"startTime":1316.811,"endTime":1321.321,"body":"coming into a decline pattern."},{"startTime":1321.381,"endTime":1321.681,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1321.686,"endTime":1322.551,"body":"Probably true."},{"startTime":1322.961,"endTime":1323.951,"body":"But it's seasonal."},{"startTime":1323.956,"endTime":1325.501,"body":"It's almost Sure, you know yeah."},{"startTime":1325.531,"endTime":1327.121,"body":"Right now that's probably true."},{"startTime":1327.181,"endTime":1328.771,"body":"But who knows what the future will bring."},{"startTime":1328.776,"endTime":1328.991,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1329.311,"endTime":1330.071,"body":"I do know that."},{"startTime":1331.636,"endTime":1336.316,"body":"The project management role has"},{"startTime":1331.636,"endTime":1336.316,"body":"been around for a very long time."},{"startTime":1336.316,"endTime":1336.406,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1336.546,"endTime":1338.786,"body":"I used to be one for many years."},{"startTime":1339.156,"endTime":1343.986,"body":"The switch over to scrum master from"},{"startTime":1339.156,"endTime":1343.986,"body":"a project manager; something that I've"},{"startTime":1343.986,"endTime":1349.616,"body":"personally done I happen to think is"},{"startTime":1343.986,"endTime":1349.616,"body":"slightly easier, especially if you have"},{"startTime":1349.646,"endTime":1351.026,"body":"if you have an open mindset, right?"},{"startTime":1351.236,"endTime":1351.296,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1351.386,"endTime":1352.766,"body":"Then the other way around."},{"startTime":1352.796,"endTime":1356.456,"body":"Yeah, because the other way around,"},{"startTime":1352.796,"endTime":1356.456,"body":"you're really grappling with"},{"startTime":1356.456,"endTime":1358.526,"body":"the lack of hard skills largely."},{"startTime":1358.846,"endTime":1362.696,"body":"Assuming you have most of the soft"},{"startTime":1358.846,"endTime":1362.696,"body":"skills as a scrum master, but hard"},{"startTime":1362.696,"endTime":1366.126,"body":"skills you know how to do cost budgeting,"},{"startTime":1362.696,"endTime":1366.126,"body":"how to do these kinds of things."},{"startTime":1366.456,"endTime":1369.546,"body":"That's where you, you need to learn those."},{"startTime":1369.576,"endTime":1369.666,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1369.906,"endTime":1370.026,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1370.296,"endTime":1374.496,"body":"And there's quite a few of those"},{"startTime":1370.296,"endTime":1374.496,"body":"to learn, for example, as a."},{"startTime":1375.531,"endTime":1379.371,"body":"As a scrum master, you've been"},{"startTime":1375.531,"endTime":1379.371,"body":"asked to raise risks, I'm sure,"},{"startTime":1379.671,"endTime":1383.451,"body":"but in project management you"},{"startTime":1379.671,"endTime":1383.451,"body":"raise risks and you, you rank them."},{"startTime":1383.481,"endTime":1388.806,"body":"You rank the Sure the impact, the"},{"startTime":1383.481,"endTime":1388.806,"body":"probability of these risks materializing"},{"startTime":1389.176,"endTime":1391.126,"body":"mitigation plans, all of that stuff."},{"startTime":1391.126,"endTime":1392.746,"body":"Tracking stuff, tracking them, you"},{"startTime":1391.126,"endTime":1392.746,"body":"tracking them all too, probably."},{"startTime":1392.806,"endTime":1393.226,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1393.256,"endTime":1395.986,"body":"And then you escalate those ones"},{"startTime":1393.256,"endTime":1395.986,"body":"that need escalation, right?"},{"startTime":1395.986,"endTime":1396.226,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1396.436,"endTime":1399.006,"body":"There's a subtle difference"},{"startTime":1396.436,"endTime":1399.006,"body":"there as opposed to just simply"},{"startTime":1399.006,"endTime":1400.416,"body":"saying, yeah, I see a risk."},{"startTime":1400.446,"endTime":1400.596,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1400.846,"endTime":1402.826,"body":"And so those skills also"},{"startTime":1400.846,"endTime":1402.826,"body":"you have to learn mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1403.066,"endTime":1403.306,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1403.636,"endTime":1407.986,"body":"Translating risks and communicating"},{"startTime":1403.636,"endTime":1407.986,"body":"them in the form that your"},{"startTime":1407.986,"endTime":1409.186,"body":"stakeholders understand."},{"startTime":1409.606,"endTime":1413.526,"body":"You are tracking and managing the risk,"},{"startTime":1409.606,"endTime":1413.526,"body":"but you're you're not necessarily."},{"startTime":1414.281,"endTime":1415.901,"body":"Doing anything to mitigate any of them."},{"startTime":1415.961,"endTime":1419.461,"body":"I, I like you I guess you are in"},{"startTime":1415.961,"endTime":1419.461,"body":"the form of you're tracking them and"},{"startTime":1419.461,"endTime":1422.251,"body":"you're making sure that there, there"},{"startTime":1419.461,"endTime":1422.251,"body":"are people in the organization that"},{"startTime":1422.251,"endTime":1425.076,"body":"are dealing with them, , you're not"},{"startTime":1422.251,"endTime":1425.076,"body":"really, what's the word I'm looking for?"},{"startTime":1425.176,"endTime":1429.991,"body":"It's like you're not necessarily"},{"startTime":1425.176,"endTime":1429.991,"body":"causing the removal of risks."},{"startTime":1430.041,"endTime":1431.751,"body":"I, I've seen project"},{"startTime":1430.041,"endTime":1431.751,"body":"managers do this like that."},{"startTime":1431.991,"endTime":1435.951,"body":"They, they, they have like sign offs and"},{"startTime":1431.991,"endTime":1435.951,"body":"you know, stuff like that about like,"},{"startTime":1435.951,"endTime":1439.556,"body":"well, you're accepting this risk and we're"},{"startTime":1435.951,"endTime":1439.556,"body":"gonna put it down in writing and you know,"},{"startTime":1439.561,"endTime":1444.156,"body":"we're gonna do a contract negotiation over"},{"startTime":1439.561,"endTime":1444.156,"body":"you know, working with people or whatever."},{"startTime":1444.156,"endTime":1446.066,"body":"And here we go beat you over"},{"startTime":1444.156,"endTime":1446.066,"body":"the head with the contract."},{"startTime":1446.306,"endTime":1448.646,"body":"Well, so I think you"},{"startTime":1446.306,"endTime":1448.646,"body":"make a good point there."},{"startTime":1448.886,"endTime":1454.556,"body":"Project managers have developed"},{"startTime":1448.886,"endTime":1454.556,"body":"this, this skill to document risks."},{"startTime":1454.556,"endTime":1454.646,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1454.886,"endTime":1454.976,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1454.976,"endTime":1458.636,"body":"They may not be actively removing"},{"startTime":1454.976,"endTime":1458.636,"body":"those those particular impediments."},{"startTime":1458.636,"endTime":1461.696,"body":"It's not just risks, it's"},{"startTime":1458.636,"endTime":1461.696,"body":"documentation is a, is a there is"},{"startTime":1461.696,"endTime":1463.106,"body":"a lot of documentation For sure."},{"startTime":1463.166,"endTime":1463.856,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"startTime":1463.856,"endTime":1466.076,"body":"And there's accountability"},{"startTime":1463.856,"endTime":1466.076,"body":"built into that as well."},{"startTime":1466.076,"endTime":1469.436,"body":"So if somebody is accepting a"},{"startTime":1466.076,"endTime":1469.436,"body":"risk, then the project manager"},{"startTime":1469.436,"endTime":1473.266,"body":"is, is going to document that and"},{"startTime":1469.436,"endTime":1473.266,"body":"as you said, get it signed off."},{"startTime":1473.266,"endTime":1473.386,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1473.691,"endTime":1478.051,"body":"They may suggest mitigation plans"},{"startTime":1473.691,"endTime":1478.051,"body":"but that's all, they are suggestions."},{"startTime":1478.051,"endTime":1480.811,"body":"They're not on the hook"},{"startTime":1478.051,"endTime":1480.811,"body":"to actually action those."},{"startTime":1480.901,"endTime":1481.021,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1481.021,"endTime":1485.571,"body":"What they are doing though is, very"},{"startTime":1481.021,"endTime":1485.571,"body":"jointly assigning those risks to"},{"startTime":1485.576,"endTime":1488.511,"body":"others to own basically, right."},{"startTime":1488.781,"endTime":1493.081,"body":"To say, either solve that, accept"},{"startTime":1488.781,"endTime":1493.081,"body":"it, or remove it, et cetera."},{"startTime":1493.111,"endTime":1493.201,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1493.441,"endTime":1495.391,"body":"And then they're just"},{"startTime":1493.441,"endTime":1495.391,"body":"monitoring the process."},{"startTime":1496.086,"endTime":1500.496,"body":"But in the, in doing so, they're"},{"startTime":1496.086,"endTime":1500.496,"body":"documenting it such that everything"},{"startTime":1500.496,"endTime":1501.816,"body":"can be pointed to somebody."},{"startTime":1501.816,"endTime":1501.906,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1502.326,"endTime":1505.386,"body":"Whereas Scrum Masters aren't necessarily"},{"startTime":1502.326,"endTime":1505.386,"body":"going to that level of detail."},{"startTime":1505.391,"endTime":1509.106,"body":"They're simply escalating it, possibly"},{"startTime":1505.391,"endTime":1509.106,"body":"on a risk board somewhere or a dashboard."},{"startTime":1509.446,"endTime":1510.826,"body":"And that's about the extent of it."},{"startTime":1511.246,"endTime":1513.646,"body":"So I think there's a bit"},{"startTime":1511.246,"endTime":1513.646,"body":"more to it than just simply,"},{"startTime":1514.021,"endTime":1516.151,"body":"Identifying and raising the risk."},{"startTime":1516.481,"endTime":1520.591,"body":"There's also classifying it, quantifying"},{"startTime":1516.481,"endTime":1520.591,"body":"it right by saying, well, what's"},{"startTime":1520.591,"endTime":1521.971,"body":"the probability this will happen?"},{"startTime":1522.031,"endTime":1523.771,"body":"What is the impact if it should happen?"},{"startTime":1523.801,"endTime":1523.861,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1524.161,"endTime":1528.361,"body":"And then translating those"},{"startTime":1524.161,"endTime":1528.361,"body":"probabilities and impacts into dollars."},{"startTime":1528.461,"endTime":1532.061,"body":"That's the key right there is, is"},{"startTime":1528.461,"endTime":1532.061,"body":"say, if this risk happens, and here's"},{"startTime":1532.061,"endTime":1533.351,"body":"the likelihood of it happening."},{"startTime":1533.621,"endTime":1538.006,"body":"Here is the negative dollar"},{"startTime":1533.621,"endTime":1538.006,"body":"amount impact on the project."},{"startTime":1538.186,"endTime":1538.356,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1538.466,"endTime":1542.366,"body":"And then raising that to the"},{"startTime":1538.466,"endTime":1542.366,"body":"stakeholders or leadership, possibly"},{"startTime":1542.366,"endTime":1545.006,"body":"management, and just say, this"},{"startTime":1542.366,"endTime":1545.006,"body":"is where, where we're at now."},{"startTime":1545.096,"endTime":1545.256,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1545.336,"endTime":1546.196,"body":"Now, Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1546.276,"endTime":1547.296,"body":"Help us solve this."},{"startTime":1547.356,"endTime":1547.596,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1547.596,"endTime":1550.926,"body":"You know, scrum Masters could get"},{"startTime":1547.596,"endTime":1550.926,"body":"a big head start on that though."},{"startTime":1550.956,"endTime":1551.596,"body":"I mean Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1551.646,"endTime":1556.026,"body":"If they are exposed to the run rate"},{"startTime":1551.646,"endTime":1556.026,"body":"of their team, if they're exposed to"},{"startTime":1556.026,"endTime":1560.106,"body":"PNLs, if they're ex, I mean, if they're"},{"startTime":1556.026,"endTime":1560.106,"body":"exposed to just the basic financials,"},{"startTime":1560.526,"endTime":1561.786,"body":"they can do a lot of that stuff."},{"startTime":1561.816,"endTime":1563.226,"body":"You know, they can doubt"},{"startTime":1561.816,"endTime":1563.226,"body":"project a lot of that stuff."},{"startTime":1563.226,"endTime":1563.646,"body":"No doubt."},{"startTime":1563.706,"endTime":1568.026,"body":"I think the, the point that I'm trying"},{"startTime":1563.706,"endTime":1568.026,"body":"to make is these skills are definitely"},{"startTime":1568.026,"endTime":1569.676,"body":"not insurmountable or anything."},{"startTime":1569.676,"endTime":1569.766,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1569.766,"endTime":1569.946,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1570.366,"endTime":1573.716,"body":"But oftentimes in practice, I"},{"startTime":1570.366,"endTime":1573.716,"body":"don't see Scrum masters privy"},{"startTime":1573.716,"endTime":1575.396,"body":"to the finances like that."},{"startTime":1575.396,"endTime":1575.666,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1575.672,"endTime":1575.766,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1575.846,"endTime":1577.736,"body":"Or even for that matter, run rates."},{"startTime":1577.826,"endTime":1578.006,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1578.066,"endTime":1578.396,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1578.396,"endTime":1581.876,"body":"That for some reason those run"},{"startTime":1578.396,"endTime":1581.876,"body":"rates are guarded, like the secret"},{"startTime":1581.876,"endTime":1583.166,"body":"that they're not supposed to be."},{"startTime":1583.166,"endTime":1583.226,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1583.616,"endTime":1583.916,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":1583.916,"endTime":1587.586,"body":"So if you knew your run rate, which you"},{"startTime":1583.916,"endTime":1587.586,"body":"really should know by the way, right?"},{"startTime":1587.676,"endTime":1588.666,"body":"What's the cost of a sprint?"},{"startTime":1588.666,"endTime":1589.506,"body":"You should be able to tell."},{"startTime":1589.516,"endTime":1590.296,"body":"People that Right."},{"startTime":1590.356,"endTime":1591.586,"body":"Without even thinking about it."},{"startTime":1591.586,"endTime":1594.586,"body":"But I don't really think"},{"startTime":1591.586,"endTime":1594.586,"body":"that's the case out there."},{"startTime":1594.646,"endTime":1596.026,"body":"I, yeah, I don't, it isn't."},{"startTime":1596.026,"endTime":1596.956,"body":"And I don't know why."},{"startTime":1597.046,"endTime":1600.016,"body":"But also, like there's another, maybe"},{"startTime":1597.046,"endTime":1600.016,"body":"there's another podcast for that."},{"startTime":1600.256,"endTime":1600.646,"body":"I like,"},{"startTime":1600.651,"endTime":1605.021,"body":"the other thing that we didn't talk"},{"startTime":1600.651,"endTime":1605.021,"body":"about is believe it or not scaling is,"},{"startTime":1605.171,"endTime":1607.181,"body":"is on the side of the project manager."},{"startTime":1607.211,"endTime":1610.601,"body":"I, I, I was trying to wiggle out of"},{"startTime":1607.211,"endTime":1610.601,"body":"this, of being, of being on this side."},{"startTime":1611.086,"endTime":1613.596,"body":"But I mean, the project manager"},{"startTime":1611.086,"endTime":1613.596,"body":"will just sit down and say,"},{"startTime":1613.596,"endTime":1615.456,"body":"okay, well here's some cutoffs."},{"startTime":1615.456,"endTime":1617.466,"body":"You know, once you have x number"},{"startTime":1615.456,"endTime":1617.466,"body":"of people, you need another layer"},{"startTime":1617.466,"endTime":1621.366,"body":"of management, and now I need a"},{"startTime":1617.466,"endTime":1621.366,"body":"whatever assistant project manager or"},{"startTime":1621.366,"endTime":1622.386,"body":"somebody else, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1622.536,"endTime":1625.146,"body":"Another team lead, once they get"},{"startTime":1622.536,"endTime":1625.146,"body":"over a certain number of development"},{"startTime":1625.151,"endTime":1629.916,"body":"teams and they'll just building"},{"startTime":1625.151,"endTime":1629.916,"body":"block, scale the whole project up,"},{"startTime":1630.036,"endTime":1633.006,"body":"and, and that'll be the end of it,"},{"startTime":1630.036,"endTime":1633.006,"body":"and that that's how they'll scale."},{"startTime":1633.096,"endTime":1636.546,"body":"I'm not saying that it's a very effective"},{"startTime":1633.096,"endTime":1636.546,"body":"method of scaling, however, they have"},{"startTime":1636.546,"endTime":1640.236,"body":"a system and It works as opposed to"},{"startTime":1636.546,"endTime":1640.236,"body":"when, when you start throwing teams"},{"startTime":1640.236,"endTime":1642.866,"body":"at a scrum master, they and they"},{"startTime":1640.236,"endTime":1642.866,"body":"have five teams and they can't get"},{"startTime":1642.866,"endTime":1646.741,"body":"anything done, nobody thinks that,"},{"startTime":1642.866,"endTime":1646.741,"body":"that, nobody thinks that's a problem."},{"startTime":1647.221,"endTime":1647.551,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":1648.241,"endTime":1648.691,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1648.691,"endTime":1653.311,"body":"Oftentimes though, in those situations"},{"startTime":1648.691,"endTime":1653.311,"body":"when skar masters are kind of dealing"},{"startTime":1653.311,"endTime":1657.541,"body":"with scaling, oftentimes what happens"},{"startTime":1653.311,"endTime":1657.541,"body":"I find is that people will just throw"},{"startTime":1657.541,"endTime":1659.221,"body":"a framework, a scaling framework at it."},{"startTime":1659.221,"endTime":1659.461,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1659.581,"endTime":1659.701,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1659.751,"endTime":1660.501,"body":"You need less."},{"startTime":1660.531,"endTime":1661.731,"body":"Oh, you need SAFe, yeah."},{"startTime":1661.851,"endTime":1662.211,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1662.591,"endTime":1665.561,"body":"Now I, I'm specifically talking"},{"startTime":1662.591,"endTime":1665.561,"body":"about scrum masters, right?"},{"startTime":1665.566,"endTime":1665.701,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1665.841,"endTime":1670.961,"body":"And so whatever the, the, the, the"},{"startTime":1665.841,"endTime":1670.961,"body":"vogue flavor of the month is you"},{"startTime":1670.961,"endTime":1672.131,"body":"know, that that's what they go with."},{"startTime":1672.191,"endTime":1673.361,"body":"This is, this is now."},{"startTime":1673.961,"endTime":1678.001,"body":"The way we scale, as opposed to your"},{"startTime":1673.961,"endTime":1678.001,"body":"point, you know a project manager's"},{"startTime":1678.001,"endTime":1681.341,"body":"gonna go figure out everything"},{"startTime":1678.001,"endTime":1681.341,"body":"based on the amount of work, right?"},{"startTime":1681.361,"endTime":1681.661,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1681.751,"endTime":1682.711,"body":"Amount of work to be done."},{"startTime":1682.771,"endTime":1687.826,"body":"The number of team members, but the"},{"startTime":1682.771,"endTime":1687.826,"body":"project manager might call them resources."},{"startTime":1688.166,"endTime":1693.036,"body":"I know that in some tools there's"},{"startTime":1688.166,"endTime":1693.036,"body":"resource sheets with resource sheet"},{"startTime":1693.366,"endTime":1695.256,"body":"per hour rates and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1695.496,"endTime":1698.376,"body":"So they can figure all that stuff out"},{"startTime":1695.496,"endTime":1698.376,"body":"and they say, this is our run rate."},{"startTime":1698.376,"endTime":1699.366,"body":"This is what we need."},{"startTime":1699.606,"endTime":1703.146,"body":"Here's the amount of work that we think"},{"startTime":1699.606,"endTime":1703.146,"body":"we can do for for the people that we have."},{"startTime":1703.146,"endTime":1704.286,"body":"We need these many people."},{"startTime":1704.286,"endTime":1704.796,"body":"All of that."},{"startTime":1705.366,"endTime":1709.826,"body":"Most of the time it is A technique called"},{"startTime":1705.366,"endTime":1709.826,"body":"straight line extrapolation, right?"},{"startTime":1709.826,"endTime":1709.916,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1710.216,"endTime":1714.266,"body":"But, and it's not necessarily effective,"},{"startTime":1710.216,"endTime":1714.266,"body":"but they know how to do it, right?"},{"startTime":1714.296,"endTime":1714.446,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1714.476,"endTime":1717.806,"body":"So as a scrum master, do you at"},{"startTime":1714.476,"endTime":1717.806,"body":"least even know how to do that?"},{"startTime":1717.986,"endTime":1718.346,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1718.496,"endTime":1718.706,"body":"Right,"},{"startTime":1718.786,"endTime":1722.316,"body":"I think we've harped on the scrum"},{"startTime":1718.786,"endTime":1722.316,"body":"master failings at this point enough."},{"startTime":1722.316,"endTime":1726.206,"body":"I think maybe we should Again, if you,"},{"startTime":1722.316,"endTime":1726.206,"body":"if, if someone's in the position and has"},{"startTime":1726.206,"endTime":1730.136,"body":"decided to make this jump, , take five"},{"startTime":1726.206,"endTime":1730.136,"body":"minutes now to kind of highlight these,"},{"startTime":1730.166,"endTime":1733.356,"body":"these are the things that you should be"},{"startTime":1730.166,"endTime":1733.356,"body":"highlighting when you're looking to move."},{"startTime":1733.626,"endTime":1734.966,"body":"I mean the the scaling one."},{"startTime":1735.671,"endTime":1741.941,"body":"I'm only saying like project management,"},{"startTime":1735.671,"endTime":1741.941,"body":"traditional project managers have to deal"},{"startTime":1741.941,"endTime":1746.261,"body":"with it less as an issue probably because"},{"startTime":1741.941,"endTime":1746.261,"body":"they don't approach it the way Scrum"},{"startTime":1746.261,"endTime":1750.311,"body":"Masters approach it, which is this is a"},{"startTime":1746.261,"endTime":1750.311,"body":"failing of the organization to properly"},{"startTime":1750.316,"endTime":1755.051,"body":"decentralize and, and, and send leadership"},{"startTime":1750.316,"endTime":1755.051,"body":"horizontal rather than verticals."},{"startTime":1755.271,"endTime":1756.561,"body":"The pyramid is not the answer."},{"startTime":1756.621,"endTime":1756.831,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1756.891,"endTime":1759.321,"body":"A bigger pyramid is not the"},{"startTime":1756.891,"endTime":1759.321,"body":"answer that that's the project"},{"startTime":1759.321,"endTime":1760.361,"body":"management version, right?"},{"startTime":1760.366,"endTime":1760.521,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1760.521,"endTime":1761.121,"body":"Of scaling."},{"startTime":1761.661,"endTime":1763.671,"body":"But a bigger pyramid is not"},{"startTime":1761.661,"endTime":1763.671,"body":"gonna, is not the answer."},{"startTime":1763.671,"endTime":1764.901,"body":"We know it's not gonna work."},{"startTime":1764.901,"endTime":1765.351,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1765.351,"endTime":1768.821,"body":"Um but how do we first"},{"startTime":1765.351,"endTime":1768.821,"body":"convince the organization?"},{"startTime":1769.076,"endTime":1771.956,"body":"And then once we've convinced the"},{"startTime":1769.076,"endTime":1771.956,"body":"organization, how do we actually"},{"startTime":1771.956,"endTime":1777.001,"body":"implement this, this you know,"},{"startTime":1771.956,"endTime":1777.001,"body":"horizontal d descaled version of scaling."},{"startTime":1777.421,"endTime":1780.721,"body":"So  again, I go back to what I said"},{"startTime":1777.421,"endTime":1780.721,"body":"before, which is the good Scrum"},{"startTime":1780.721,"endTime":1783.931,"body":"masters with the good communication"},{"startTime":1780.721,"endTime":1783.931,"body":"and facilitation skills will get"},{"startTime":1783.931,"endTime":1787.201,"body":"with leadership and or management,"},{"startTime":1783.931,"endTime":1787.201,"body":"they'll figure out who has influence."},{"startTime":1787.201,"endTime":1788.761,"body":"They'll figure out who"},{"startTime":1787.201,"endTime":1788.761,"body":"they have to talk to."},{"startTime":1789.391,"endTime":1793.571,"body":"They'll, they'll, they'll talk to the"},{"startTime":1789.391,"endTime":1793.571,"body":"problems or, or maybe the better version,"},{"startTime":1794.801,"endTime":1799.571,"body":"pull the problems out of leadership"},{"startTime":1794.801,"endTime":1799.571,"body":"by asking questions, asking powerful"},{"startTime":1799.571,"endTime":1803.111,"body":"questions, and getting leadership to kind"},{"startTime":1799.571,"endTime":1803.111,"body":"of introspect to where they want to go."},{"startTime":1803.531,"endTime":1808.181,"body":"And then driving the, The shape of"},{"startTime":1803.531,"endTime":1808.181,"body":"the organization into the future based"},{"startTime":1808.181,"endTime":1809.831,"body":"off of a plan that they put together."},{"startTime":1809.831,"endTime":1812.406,"body":"And then  it'll be a much more"},{"startTime":1809.831,"endTime":1812.406,"body":"powerful plan because they, they,"},{"startTime":1812.406,"endTime":1816.046,"body":"they both work together to come"},{"startTime":1812.406,"endTime":1816.046,"body":"to the answer rather than me just"},{"startTime":1816.046,"endTime":1817.486,"body":"telling you, you need to do whatever."},{"startTime":1817.536,"endTime":1821.626,"body":"you bring up a good point which, which"},{"startTime":1817.536,"endTime":1821.626,"body":"I think is often overlooked, right?"},{"startTime":1821.626,"endTime":1826.696,"body":"Which is, as a scrum master, you, you"},{"startTime":1821.626,"endTime":1826.696,"body":"kind of work with your leadership,"},{"startTime":1826.756,"endTime":1828.526,"body":"you coach the organization, right?"},{"startTime":1828.676,"endTime":1828.856,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1829.006,"endTime":1834.136,"body":"That, that kind of interaction, I"},{"startTime":1829.006,"endTime":1834.136,"body":"don't see that with the traditional"},{"startTime":1834.196,"endTime":1835.636,"body":"project management type role."},{"startTime":1835.726,"endTime":1835.816,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1836.056,"endTime":1839.746,"body":"Most times if you're a project manager,"},{"startTime":1836.056,"endTime":1839.746,"body":"chances are you roll up under a pmo."},{"startTime":1839.956,"endTime":1844.821,"body":"So there are other project managers,"},{"startTime":1839.956,"endTime":1844.821,"body":"there's pmo modus operandi tool"},{"startTime":1844.821,"endTime":1848.061,"body":"sets that you have to use and"},{"startTime":1844.821,"endTime":1848.061,"body":"you cannot stray from that."},{"startTime":1848.691,"endTime":1850.521,"body":"But one such tool."},{"startTime":1850.611,"endTime":1852.951,"body":"What there, there is no such tool as."},{"startTime":1853.461,"endTime":1856.251,"body":"Here's an artifact, go"},{"startTime":1853.461,"endTime":1856.251,"body":"engage leadership, right?"},{"startTime":1856.311,"endTime":1856.401,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1856.641,"endTime":1857.361,"body":"That doesn't exist."},{"startTime":1857.361,"endTime":1857.421,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1857.421,"endTime":1861.871,"body":"So I think that's a failing as I, if"},{"startTime":1857.421,"endTime":1861.871,"body":"you can call it that, between these two"},{"startTime":1861.931,"endTime":1866.101,"body":"paradigms here, scrum Masters should be"},{"startTime":1861.931,"endTime":1866.101,"body":"working and, and easily be working with."},{"startTime":1866.491,"endTime":1867.121,"body":"Leadership."},{"startTime":1867.126,"endTime":1867.371,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1867.456,"endTime":1870.481,"body":"The organization, the other"},{"startTime":1867.456,"endTime":1870.481,"body":"domains of the business."},{"startTime":1870.481,"endTime":1870.571,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1870.871,"endTime":1874.721,"body":"Product being one of 'em, but"},{"startTime":1870.871,"endTime":1874.721,"body":"other domains traditional project"},{"startTime":1874.721,"endTime":1876.791,"body":"managers, they don't get to do that."},{"startTime":1876.851,"endTime":1877.001,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1877.241,"endTime":1880.211,"body":"They typically don't have the"},{"startTime":1877.241,"endTime":1880.211,"body":"wherewithal to do that either, I"},{"startTime":1880.211,"endTime":1881.801,"body":"would say, without being unkind."},{"startTime":1881.801,"endTime":1882.101,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1882.101,"endTime":1882.161,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1882.421,"endTime":1884.581,"body":"Because they're focused on the project."},{"startTime":1884.611,"endTime":1884.701,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1885.181,"endTime":1886.201,"body":"So that's one."},{"startTime":1886.201,"endTime":1891.261,"body":"The other thing is scrum masters are"},{"startTime":1886.201,"endTime":1891.261,"body":"more akin to take a product mindset cuz"},{"startTime":1891.261,"endTime":1892.581,"body":"they're dealing with product people."},{"startTime":1892.611,"endTime":1892.701,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1892.981,"endTime":1895.226,"body":"Which is what really is, is, is needed."},{"startTime":1895.436,"endTime":1899.036,"body":"Whereas pro managers, well"},{"startTime":1895.436,"endTime":1899.036,"body":"they're by definition thinking"},{"startTime":1899.036,"endTime":1900.686,"body":"about things as a project."},{"startTime":1900.746,"endTime":1900.956,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1901.016,"endTime":1902.636,"body":"Everything has a beginning and an end."},{"startTime":1902.996,"endTime":1903.386,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1903.776,"endTime":1904.946,"body":"So they're thinking about."},{"startTime":1905.526,"endTime":1907.086,"body":"Everything from that perspective."},{"startTime":1907.086,"endTime":1911.406,"body":"Like for example, we, we talked about"},{"startTime":1907.086,"endTime":1911.406,"body":"this, but funding fund a project mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1911.766,"endTime":1914.866,"body":"As opposed to contrast"},{"startTime":1911.766,"endTime":1914.866,"body":"that with fund a product."},{"startTime":1915.046,"endTime":1915.196,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1915.226,"endTime":1916.606,"body":"Or product features."},{"startTime":1916.606,"endTime":1917.926,"body":"Or product capabilities."},{"startTime":1917.926,"endTime":1918.196,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1918.196,"endTime":1918.527,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1919.066,"endTime":1920.446,"body":"So start differences there."},{"startTime":1920.546,"endTime":1924.716,"body":"So if you, you're a, if you're a scrum"},{"startTime":1920.546,"endTime":1924.716,"body":"master looking into becoming a project"},{"startTime":1924.721,"endTime":1929.156,"body":"manager, just be aware of those things"},{"startTime":1924.721,"endTime":1929.156,"body":"upfront and then do what you can to"},{"startTime":1929.156,"endTime":1933.796,"body":"learn about how to redress those kinds"},{"startTime":1929.156,"endTime":1933.796,"body":"of Gaps or deficiencies, I guess you"},{"startTime":1933.796,"endTime":1935.716,"body":"know, that might be chinks in your armor."},{"startTime":1936.256,"endTime":1939.196,"body":"Project management from the"},{"startTime":1936.256,"endTime":1939.196,"body":"perspective of delivering software,"},{"startTime":1939.406,"endTime":1943.516,"body":"which is a little bit different than"},{"startTime":1939.406,"endTime":1943.516,"body":"like a generalized kind of project"},{"startTime":1943.516,"endTime":1945.316,"body":"management for everything kind of deal."},{"startTime":1945.316,"endTime":1947.596,"body":"It's like you're a specialist in software."},{"startTime":1947.596,"endTime":1949.671,"body":"Like you're already a"},{"startTime":1947.596,"endTime":1949.671,"body":"specialist in software."},{"startTime":1949.851,"endTime":1952.006,"body":"You're already kind of"},{"startTime":1949.851,"endTime":1952.006,"body":"okay with ambiguity."},{"startTime":1952.006,"endTime":1955.426,"body":"You're already kind of okay taking"},{"startTime":1952.006,"endTime":1955.426,"body":"on the unknowns and starting when,"},{"startTime":1955.516,"endTime":1958.066,"body":"when you know all of the quote plans."},{"startTime":1958.951,"endTime":1959.851,"body":"Are not in place."},{"startTime":1959.911,"endTime":1961.231,"body":"Like you're, you're already Okay."},{"startTime":1961.281,"endTime":1962.091,"body":"Getting started."},{"startTime":1962.151,"endTime":1963.711,"body":"And, and that's a, that's a strength."},{"startTime":1964.221,"endTime":1968.806,"body":"You probably have some level of"},{"startTime":1964.221,"endTime":1968.806,"body":"facilitation skills you know, kind"},{"startTime":1968.806,"endTime":1970.816,"body":"of like, oh, I was talking about at"},{"startTime":1968.806,"endTime":1970.816,"body":"the start of the podcast with Yeah."},{"startTime":1970.876,"endTime":1972.676,"body":"Being able to facilitate a"},{"startTime":1970.876,"endTime":1972.676,"body":"large group and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1972.886,"endTime":1972.976,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1972.976,"endTime":1974.476,"body":"Not saying project managers can't do that."},{"startTime":1974.476,"endTime":1978.166,"body":"Project managers are probably"},{"startTime":1974.476,"endTime":1978.166,"body":"well capable of this too."},{"startTime":1978.206,"endTime":1979.406,"body":"A lot that I've met anyway."},{"startTime":1979.496,"endTime":1979.736,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1980.191,"endTime":1981.072,"body":"But in, in."},{"startTime":1981.076,"endTime":1986.836,"body":"In terms of Process facilitation"},{"startTime":1981.076,"endTime":1986.836,"body":"in terms of getting teams working"},{"startTime":1986.836,"endTime":1990.316,"body":"together and sponsoring team"},{"startTime":1986.836,"endTime":1990.316,"body":"collaboration and team empowerment."},{"startTime":1990.616,"endTime":1994.426,"body":"Like not just empowering one team,"},{"startTime":1990.616,"endTime":1994.426,"body":"but improving the ways that teams"},{"startTime":1994.636,"endTime":1996.586,"body":"talk to and work with each other."},{"startTime":1996.616,"endTime":1996.916,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1997.156,"endTime":1999.346,"body":"The, the, the, the glue that binds team."},{"startTime":1999.701,"endTime":2003.011,"body":"Together that might be an advantage that"},{"startTime":1999.701,"endTime":2003.011,"body":"you have, that you might wanna highlight."},{"startTime":2003.381,"endTime":2007.961,"body":"And then adaptability flexibility of"},{"startTime":2003.381,"endTime":2007.961,"body":"being able to go from team to team"},{"startTime":2007.961,"endTime":2010.811,"body":"and build different teams up and, and"},{"startTime":2007.961,"endTime":2010.811,"body":"making them kind of permanent fixtures."},{"startTime":2010.816,"endTime":2014.391,"body":"That's a little like, that would be in"},{"startTime":2010.816,"endTime":2014.391,"body":"my mind, a failing of  project management"},{"startTime":2014.391,"endTime":2019.291,"body":"is that you're not really seeing the team"},{"startTime":2014.391,"endTime":2019.291,"body":"as something that is permanently powering"},{"startTime":2019.291,"endTime":2021.361,"body":"a value stream of your organization."},{"startTime":2021.721,"endTime":2025.141,"body":"You know, you're, you're kind of seeing"},{"startTime":2021.721,"endTime":2025.141,"body":"the team as like a, a temporary type of"},{"startTime":2025.141,"endTime":2028.771,"body":"like, well, these people are just here"},{"startTime":2025.141,"endTime":2028.771,"body":"until we hit this milestone, or hit this"},{"startTime":2028.771,"endTime":2032.101,"body":"deadline, or hit this date or whatever,"},{"startTime":2028.771,"endTime":2032.101,"body":"or deliver X, Y, Z or whatever, and then"},{"startTime":2032.101,"endTime":2033.901,"body":"we're gonna hand off this other team."},{"startTime":2033.901,"endTime":2036.571,"body":"Or especially with, with teams"},{"startTime":2033.901,"endTime":2036.571,"body":"that I've seen that like."},{"startTime":2036.586,"endTime":2040.126,"body":"Contract teams where they cut the"},{"startTime":2036.586,"endTime":2040.126,"body":"team at the end of the contract period"},{"startTime":2040.126,"endTime":2043.186,"body":"and they hand off and there's like a"},{"startTime":2040.126,"endTime":2043.186,"body":"hypercare period afterwards where they"},{"startTime":2043.186,"endTime":2046.546,"body":"reduce the team to a certain amount"},{"startTime":2043.186,"endTime":2046.546,"body":"and they just maintain and then yeah,"},{"startTime":2046.546,"endTime":2048.136,"body":"at at some point they'll roll off too."},{"startTime":2048.346,"endTime":2050.206,"body":"It's like, well, how is the"},{"startTime":2048.346,"endTime":2050.206,"body":"business gonna maintain that?"},{"startTime":2050.716,"endTime":2054.316,"body":"Software when all the people that wrote"},{"startTime":2050.716,"endTime":2054.316,"body":"it and maintained it are completely gone"},{"startTime":2054.316,"endTime":2059.296,"body":"cuz the contract is over because the, the,"},{"startTime":2054.316,"endTime":2059.296,"body":"the, the arbitrary end of date period has"},{"startTime":2059.296,"endTime":2061.546,"body":"passed and now we can't maintain software."},{"startTime":2061.546,"endTime":2061.846,"body":"Come on."},{"startTime":2061.876,"endTime":2063.226,"body":"Like, that's kind of ridiculous."},{"startTime":2063.736,"endTime":2067.036,"body":"So you, there's a lot of advantages"},{"startTime":2063.736,"endTime":2067.036,"body":"here that we've outlined."},{"startTime":2067.036,"endTime":2071.416,"body":"There's a lot of, a lot of gaps to, to,"},{"startTime":2067.036,"endTime":2071.416,"body":"to be completely honest, like a log gaps."},{"startTime":2071.776,"endTime":2073.996,"body":"I mean, you even said you, you"},{"startTime":2071.776,"endTime":2073.996,"body":"thought it might be a little"},{"startTime":2073.996,"endTime":2078.316,"body":"bit easier to move from project"},{"startTime":2073.996,"endTime":2078.316,"body":"management over into Scrum Mastery."},{"startTime":2078.656,"endTime":2082.896,"body":"I, I guess where I wanna move"},{"startTime":2078.656,"endTime":2082.896,"body":"into is Should you make this move?"},{"startTime":2082.896,"endTime":2087.036,"body":"Like what, what, what, what would, what"},{"startTime":2082.896,"endTime":2087.036,"body":"would be like some of it's personality,"},{"startTime":2087.036,"endTime":2091.406,"body":"some of it's where you're at in your"},{"startTime":2087.036,"endTime":2091.406,"body":"career, some of it's, you know training,"},{"startTime":2091.406,"endTime":2092.486,"body":"other things you've been exposed to."},{"startTime":2092.491,"endTime":2095.326,"body":"But I don't know what, what,"},{"startTime":2092.491,"endTime":2095.326,"body":"what, what would be some."},{"startTime":2096.271,"endTime":2098.881,"body":"What would be some things that"},{"startTime":2096.271,"endTime":2098.881,"body":"would make you suggest to somebody"},{"startTime":2098.881,"endTime":2100.141,"body":"look into this move, I guess?"},{"startTime":2100.171,"endTime":2100.501,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2100.551,"endTime":2103.311,"body":"As we do that I'd like"},{"startTime":2100.551,"endTime":2103.311,"body":"to layer on another one."},{"startTime":2103.341,"endTime":2103.641,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2103.646,"endTime":2107.076,"body":"Which is an advantage if you are"},{"startTime":2103.646,"endTime":2107.076,"body":"coming from the scrum master side"},{"startTime":2107.076,"endTime":2111.516,"body":"of things, which is hopefully you're"},{"startTime":2107.076,"endTime":2111.516,"body":"used to speaking with customers."},{"startTime":2111.616,"endTime":2115.186,"body":"I've not met that many project managers"},{"startTime":2111.616,"endTime":2115.186,"body":"that actually talk to customers."},{"startTime":2115.186,"endTime":2118.166,"body":"They don't really care,"},{"startTime":2115.186,"endTime":2118.166,"body":"honestly to be blunt."},{"startTime":2118.436,"endTime":2118.796,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2119.096,"endTime":2121.976,"body":"They, they don't, I mean, that's"},{"startTime":2119.096,"endTime":2121.976,"body":"not their, that's not their remit."},{"startTime":2122.036,"endTime":2122.936,"body":"I think they, I think they're."},{"startTime":2123.041,"endTime":2126.341,"body":"The pushback will be, well, they talk"},{"startTime":2123.041,"endTime":2126.341,"body":"to vendors and they'll tell, they'll,"},{"startTime":2126.341,"endTime":2130.001,"body":"they'll tell you, they talk to indirectly"},{"startTime":2126.341,"endTime":2130.001,"body":"customers, but may, maybe not, maybe"},{"startTime":2130.001,"endTime":2133.451,"body":"customers, meaning like the people paying"},{"startTime":2130.001,"endTime":2133.451,"body":"for the software or whatever, but, but"},{"startTime":2133.451,"endTime":2135.341,"body":"not necess necessarily the end user."},{"startTime":2135.521,"endTime":2135.611,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2135.611,"endTime":2140.321,"body":"Other, other than in case they have"},{"startTime":2135.611,"endTime":2140.321,"body":"to play the role of a BA and gather"},{"startTime":2140.321,"endTime":2142.751,"body":"requirements from an end user."},{"startTime":2142.961,"endTime":2143.981,"body":"But I, I agree with you."},{"startTime":2143.981,"endTime":2148.651,"body":"Like it's not like the development"},{"startTime":2143.981,"endTime":2148.651,"body":"team in their sprint review."},{"startTime":2149.236,"endTime":2153.616,"body":"Talking back and forth with a user,"},{"startTime":2149.236,"endTime":2153.616,"body":"as a user kind of navigates and uses"},{"startTime":2153.616,"endTime":2156.166,"body":"the software or a UIUX designer."},{"startTime":2156.216,"endTime":2160.536,"body":"A lot of project managers I've seen"},{"startTime":2156.216,"endTime":2160.536,"body":"overcome this by having the, their"},{"startTime":2160.536,"endTime":2163.176,"body":"organization or the PMO or wherever"},{"startTime":2160.536,"endTime":2163.176,"body":"they're parked in the organization"},{"startTime":2163.326,"endTime":2165.606,"body":"also has bas and the bas will."},{"startTime":2165.936,"endTime":2171.186,"body":"Partner with the project manager"},{"startTime":2165.936,"endTime":2171.186,"body":"and, and relieve them of not"},{"startTime":2171.186,"endTime":2172.806,"body":"having that skillset, you know?"},{"startTime":2173.076,"endTime":2173.256,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2173.256,"endTime":2177.291,"body":"By virtue of not having but, but now you"},{"startTime":2173.256,"endTime":2177.291,"body":"got two people doing the job of, right."},{"startTime":2177.291,"endTime":2177.451,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2177.456,"endTime":2177.561,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2177.561,"endTime":2178.371,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2178.371,"endTime":2182.056,"body":"And, and also not having those,"},{"startTime":2178.371,"endTime":2182.056,"body":"those sprint reviews, cuz typically"},{"startTime":2182.056,"endTime":2183.106,"body":"in project management you don't."},{"startTime":2183.136,"endTime":2183.256,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2183.376,"endTime":2183.616,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2183.936,"endTime":2185.946,"body":"So let's, let's talk about this."},{"startTime":2185.946,"endTime":2187.356,"body":"Should you consider."},{"startTime":2187.726,"endTime":2190.066,"body":"A move toward mm-hmm; project management."},{"startTime":2190.486,"endTime":2195.376,"body":"I think if you're the type of person"},{"startTime":2190.486,"endTime":2195.376,"body":"who is very detail oriented, who"},{"startTime":2195.376,"endTime":2200.966,"body":"likes to be you know, on top of things"},{"startTime":2195.376,"endTime":2200.966,"body":"when it comes to like, Ambiguity and"},{"startTime":2200.966,"endTime":2203.006,"body":"things like that as much as possible."},{"startTime":2203.276,"endTime":2210.806,"body":"You also are okay with telling people as"},{"startTime":2203.276,"endTime":2210.806,"body":"opposed to soliciting feedback largely."},{"startTime":2210.866,"endTime":2214.976,"body":"Again, this is gross generalization,"},{"startTime":2210.866,"endTime":2214.976,"body":"mind you you might, you might consider"},{"startTime":2214.981,"endTime":2219.566,"body":"that, but the, the overriding thing here"},{"startTime":2214.981,"endTime":2219.566,"body":"is gonna be: you still act as a scrum"},{"startTime":2219.566,"endTime":2221.426,"body":"master cuz that's who you are core."},{"startTime":2221.676,"endTime":2224.736,"body":"Even if you land this, this role"},{"startTime":2221.676,"endTime":2224.736,"body":"as a project manager, just be"},{"startTime":2224.736,"endTime":2228.666,"body":"aware of what is expected of you in"},{"startTime":2224.736,"endTime":2228.666,"body":"addition mm-hmm to being a mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2228.816,"endTime":2229.596,"body":"Scrum master."},{"startTime":2229.626,"endTime":2231.756,"body":"And that, that often I"},{"startTime":2229.626,"endTime":2231.756,"body":"think is the case, right?"},{"startTime":2231.761,"endTime":2233.526,"body":"People will say you're"},{"startTime":2231.761,"endTime":2233.526,"body":"a project manager, but."},{"startTime":2234.081,"endTime":2235.821,"body":"You know, we want you to work"},{"startTime":2234.081,"endTime":2235.821,"body":"with the teams, we want you"},{"startTime":2235.821,"endTime":2238.671,"body":"to talk to the customers, et"},{"startTime":2235.821,"endTime":2238.671,"body":"cetera, if they even say that."},{"startTime":2238.671,"endTime":2240.321,"body":"But, so just be aware."},{"startTime":2240.321,"endTime":2241.371,"body":"Should you consider it."},{"startTime":2241.371,"endTime":2247.641,"body":"I think the path going one way or the"},{"startTime":2241.371,"endTime":2247.641,"body":"other, these paths are definitely things"},{"startTime":2247.646,"endTime":2250.151,"body":"that these are traversable, you can do it."},{"startTime":2250.481,"endTime":2251.741,"body":"They're not insurmountable."},{"startTime":2251.801,"endTime":2251.861,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2251.866,"endTime":2257.591,"body":"You just need to know what you're going in"},{"startTime":2251.866,"endTime":2257.591,"body":"for and then make a plan to come up with"},{"startTime":2257.591,"endTime":2262.346,"body":"everything that you are, you are basically"},{"startTime":2257.591,"endTime":2262.346,"body":"lacking, for want of a better word."},{"startTime":2262.496,"endTime":2262.586,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2262.916,"endTime":2265.936,"body":"Um like budgeting for instance, if you're"},{"startTime":2262.916,"endTime":2265.936,"body":"coming from that perspective, right?"},{"startTime":2265.936,"endTime":2266.026,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2266.266,"endTime":2267.416,"body":"I mean, these things"},{"startTime":2266.266,"endTime":2267.416,"body":"can be learned as well."},{"startTime":2267.556,"endTime":2270.436,"body":"So partner with people is key, right?"},{"startTime":2270.441,"endTime":2273.316,"body":"Partner with people, whether"},{"startTime":2270.441,"endTime":2273.316,"body":"you're becoming a scrum master or"},{"startTime":2273.316,"endTime":2276.366,"body":"be your from a project management"},{"startTime":2273.316,"endTime":2276.366,"body":"background or vice versa."},{"startTime":2276.986,"endTime":2279.806,"body":"These people will be your your key, right?"},{"startTime":2279.806,"endTime":2283.676,"body":"So if you're in a PMO world, suddenly"},{"startTime":2279.806,"endTime":2283.676,"body":"partner with those people that have"},{"startTime":2283.676,"endTime":2285.386,"body":"more of an agile mindset in the pmo."},{"startTime":2285.731,"endTime":2286.691,"body":"Seek out a mentor."},{"startTime":2287.601,"endTime":2290.826,"body":"I feel you're, you're the best person"},{"startTime":2287.601,"endTime":2290.826,"body":"to give suggestions of should you move."},{"startTime":2291.516,"endTime":2294.816,"body":"I don't have a lot of great suggestions"},{"startTime":2291.516,"endTime":2294.816,"body":"about should you move aside from"},{"startTime":2294.816,"endTime":2296.796,"body":"where do you want your career to go?"},{"startTime":2297.156,"endTime":2299.436,"body":"You know, if you're just looking"},{"startTime":2297.156,"endTime":2299.436,"body":"purely at money, I don't know."},{"startTime":2299.436,"endTime":2304.026,"body":"I think both these positions have ceilings"},{"startTime":2299.436,"endTime":2304.026,"body":"and I think the ceilings are very similar."},{"startTime":2304.446,"endTime":2308.186,"body":"I do think project management"},{"startTime":2304.446,"endTime":2308.186,"body":"profession I think there's probably"},{"startTime":2308.191,"endTime":2310.466,"body":"more opportunities out there."},{"startTime":2310.826,"endTime":2314.996,"body":"There are certainly some sectors"},{"startTime":2310.826,"endTime":2314.996,"body":"that are Almost completely project"},{"startTime":2314.996,"endTime":2319.486,"body":"management centric and absolutely"},{"startTime":2314.996,"endTime":2319.486,"body":"not you know, whatever scrum"},{"startTime":2319.486,"endTime":2322.606,"body":"master or, you know agile s."},{"startTime":2322.936,"endTime":2323.416,"body":"Ish."},{"startTime":2324.136,"endTime":2324.886,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":2324.916,"endTime":2329.806,"body":"If you're open for your career, to take"},{"startTime":2324.916,"endTime":2329.806,"body":"you in a direction that is away from"},{"startTime":2330.046,"endTime":2331.876,"body":"mainly software and things like that."},{"startTime":2331.881,"endTime":2331.986,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2332.706,"endTime":2334.986,"body":"Because that's where a"},{"startTime":2332.706,"endTime":2334.986,"body":"lot of Scrum masters play."},{"startTime":2335.326,"endTime":2339.586,"body":"If youre okay to go into, let's"},{"startTime":2335.326,"endTime":2339.586,"body":"say civil engineering or you know,"},{"startTime":2339.586,"endTime":2341.516,"body":"building building bridges or whatever."},{"startTime":2341.516,"endTime":2341.906,"body":"I guess that's."},{"startTime":2341.956,"endTime":2345.796,"body":"Same thing, but yeah, those kinds"},{"startTime":2341.956,"endTime":2345.796,"body":"of projects that could be multi-year"},{"startTime":2345.796,"endTime":2347.206,"body":"projects, not into its software."},{"startTime":2347.626,"endTime":2348.676,"body":"Sure, go ahead."},{"startTime":2348.676,"endTime":2351.796,"body":"You know, get, get yourself"},{"startTime":2348.676,"endTime":2351.796,"body":"into project management and"},{"startTime":2352.006,"endTime":2353.116,"body":"the opportunities are there."},{"startTime":2353.616,"endTime":2357.191,"body":"But if you're one of those people"},{"startTime":2353.616,"endTime":2357.191,"body":"that say in a couple of years"},{"startTime":2357.191,"endTime":2360.131,"body":"I wanna maybe just move to a"},{"startTime":2357.191,"endTime":2360.131,"body":"different area, product, or mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2360.851,"endTime":2362.591,"body":"Agile coaching or whatever it might be."},{"startTime":2363.186,"endTime":2369.486,"body":"Then the jump to those roles from being"},{"startTime":2363.186,"endTime":2369.486,"body":"a project manager will be harder for you."},{"startTime":2369.666,"endTime":2372.606,"body":"So look at those things first and"},{"startTime":2369.666,"endTime":2372.606,"body":"then make your decision, right?"},{"startTime":2372.606,"endTime":2376.276,"body":"You could easily go , up the ranks,"},{"startTime":2372.606,"endTime":2376.276,"body":"so to speak in project management."},{"startTime":2376.276,"endTime":2376.277,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2376.283,"endTime":2379.466,"body":"Your senior pm director of pmo, et cetera."},{"startTime":2379.526,"endTime":2379.796,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2380.036,"endTime":2381.926,"body":"But you've gotta want that, right?"},{"startTime":2382.576,"endTime":2386.086,"body":"I think after our conversation,"},{"startTime":2382.576,"endTime":2386.086,"body":"I think I've made a decision."},{"startTime":2386.671,"endTime":2387.901,"body":"I'm, I'm gonna stay in product."},{"startTime":2387.901,"endTime":2388.891,"body":"I'm not gonna, yeah."},{"startTime":2388.891,"endTime":2390.211,"body":"Civil engineering and s suede."},{"startTime":2390.216,"endTime":2390.371,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2390.391,"endTime":2391.111,"body":"No, not at all."},{"startTime":2391.111,"endTime":2391.261,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2391.261,"endTime":2392.161,"body":"No, I'm gonna stay in product."},{"startTime":2392.371,"endTime":2393.961,"body":"Well to each their own."},{"startTime":2394.121,"endTime":2395.231,"body":"Yeah, I'm not moving either."},{"startTime":2395.801,"endTime":2396.011,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2396.011,"endTime":2397.901,"body":"Well, I, I know the territory I came from."},{"startTime":2398.531,"endTime":2401.481,"body":"Well this I'm glad that we went"},{"startTime":2398.531,"endTime":2401.481,"body":"through this whole podcast and"},{"startTime":2401.481,"endTime":2403.011,"body":"did, didn't convince either of us."},{"startTime":2403.111,"endTime":2407.491,"body":"Hopefully we've also not convinced"},{"startTime":2403.111,"endTime":2407.491,"body":"you or we have convinced you e either"},{"startTime":2407.491,"endTime":2408.601,"body":"way, you got your money's worth."},{"startTime":2408.601,"endTime":2409.081,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":2409.111,"endTime":2410.851,"body":"This was worth every"},{"startTime":2409.111,"endTime":2410.851,"body":"penny you didn't pay for."},{"startTime":2410.971,"endTime":2414.166,"body":"Yes, that is, but let us know what"},{"startTime":2410.971,"endTime":2414.166,"body":"else you'd like us to talk about"},{"startTime":2414.166,"endTime":2415.726,"body":"and please like and subscribe."},{"startTime":2416.116,"endTime":2422.506,"body":"And you can go to arguing agile.com and"},{"startTime":2416.116,"endTime":2422.506,"body":"fill out the form and send us a voicemail"}]}