{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.86,"endTime":2.25,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2.25,"endTime":4.52,"body":"Welcome back to Arguing Agile"},{"startTime":2.25,"endTime":4.52,"body":"I'm your host, Brian Orlando."},{"startTime":4.64,"endTime":7.75,"body":"That's your host Om Patel covers the"},{"startTime":4.64,"endTime":7.75,"body":"enterprise and all things people,"},{"startTime":7.755,"endTime":9.551,"body":"and I cover all things product."},{"startTime":9.601,"endTime":10.351,"body":"Hit my music."},{"startTime":10.441,"endTime":12.901,"body":"Oh, wait, there's no, there's"},{"startTime":10.441,"endTime":12.901,"body":"still this, the music."},{"startTime":12.951,"endTime":15.901,"body":"Anyway today on the podcast, we're"},{"startTime":12.951,"endTime":15.901,"body":"fielding a question from Mitch."},{"startTime":15.901,"endTime":16.321,"body":"Here we go."},{"startTime":16.321,"endTime":17.431,"body":"Mitch, these are your questions."},{"startTime":17.436,"endTime":21.951,"body":"So Mitch asks has there ever been a"},{"startTime":17.436,"endTime":21.951,"body":"time when management forced you to use a"},{"startTime":21.951,"endTime":26.971,"body":"methodology and Mitch listed some, some"},{"startTime":21.951,"endTime":26.971,"body":"methodologies, some current methodologies."},{"startTime":26.976,"endTime":28.951,"body":"Some, some older methodologies."},{"startTime":28.981,"endTime":31.141,"body":"Well, they're, they're older"},{"startTime":28.981,"endTime":31.141,"body":"codes, but they check out, I was"},{"startTime":31.146,"endTime":32.281,"body":"about to clearer them, Lord Vader."},{"startTime":32.401,"endTime":34.141,"body":"Sorry, well, we went too deep."},{"startTime":34.141,"endTime":37.111,"body":"so I figured in in no particular"},{"startTime":34.141,"endTime":37.111,"body":"order, we would walk through software"},{"startTime":37.111,"endTime":40.356,"body":"methodologies and kind of talk about"},{"startTime":37.111,"endTime":40.356,"body":"like what happens when management"},{"startTime":40.362,"endTime":42.829,"body":"dictates you should use this methodology."},{"startTime":42.916,"endTime":44.026,"body":"That doesn't happen, right?"},{"startTime":45.826,"endTime":49.636,"body":"When management forces"},{"startTime":45.826,"endTime":49.636,"body":"you to use a methodology."},{"startTime":50.266,"endTime":53.066,"body":"Th this could be you're walking"},{"startTime":50.266,"endTime":53.066,"body":"into a new job and mm-hmm."},{"startTime":53.206,"endTime":57.466,"body":"You walk into a, a practice where"},{"startTime":53.206,"endTime":57.466,"body":"something is already prevalent"},{"startTime":57.471,"endTime":60.646,"body":"and now you're forced to go along"},{"startTime":57.471,"endTime":60.646,"body":"with it, whether you agree or not."},{"startTime":60.736,"endTime":65.376,"body":"It could be that could be it could"},{"startTime":60.736,"endTime":65.376,"body":"also be that you are using some"},{"startTime":65.381,"endTime":69.366,"body":"methodology and management comes"},{"startTime":65.381,"endTime":69.366,"body":"in and says, stop, you should use"},{"startTime":69.366,"endTime":70.926,"body":"this now, or You must use this now."},{"startTime":71.256,"endTime":71.406,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":71.406,"endTime":74.116,"body":"That, those are ways that you"},{"startTime":71.406,"endTime":74.116,"body":"could be forced, I guess, right?"},{"startTime":74.236,"endTime":79.086,"body":"Yeah so again, in no particular"},{"startTime":74.236,"endTime":79.086,"body":"order, but maybe just in the order"},{"startTime":79.091,"endTime":80.846,"body":"of prevalence out in the industry."},{"startTime":80.896,"endTime":84.826,"body":"So I think from what I've seen in the"},{"startTime":80.896,"endTime":84.826,"body":"industry what, what's colloquially"},{"startTime":84.826,"endTime":88.936,"body":"now referred to as the Waterfall"},{"startTime":84.826,"endTime":88.936,"body":"Development Methodology mm-hmm."},{"startTime":89.176,"endTime":90.166,"body":"Is the most prevalent."},{"startTime":90.196,"endTime":90.406,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":90.676,"endTime":93.556,"body":"Whether it's actually referred"},{"startTime":90.676,"endTime":93.556,"body":"to as waterfall or not."},{"startTime":93.676,"endTime":98.646,"body":"Right the practices definitely"},{"startTime":93.676,"endTime":98.646,"body":"are those that align to sequential"},{"startTime":98.746,"endTime":100.156,"body":"way of developing things."},{"startTime":100.186,"endTime":104.786,"body":"Right, right and typically entail"},{"startTime":100.186,"endTime":104.786,"body":"those, those things that people have"},{"startTime":104.846,"endTime":108.246,"body":"already grown to I was gonna say grown"},{"startTime":104.846,"endTime":108.246,"body":"to love, but maybe not so much love"},{"startTime":108.496,"endTime":110.386,"body":"they're, they're accustomed to it, right?"},{"startTime":110.656,"endTime":110.896,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":110.901,"endTime":115.586,"body":"Do the discovery phase find out what the"},{"startTime":110.901,"endTime":115.586,"body":"requirements are, get them signed off"},{"startTime":115.586,"endTime":120.726,"body":"in blood do some design, and then once"},{"startTime":115.586,"endTime":120.726,"body":"the design's ready start development."},{"startTime":120.726,"endTime":123.366,"body":"And once developments"},{"startTime":120.726,"endTime":123.366,"body":"ready, start the testing."},{"startTime":123.726,"endTime":126.426,"body":"And once testing is done, then"},{"startTime":123.726,"endTime":126.426,"body":"you actually deploy something"},{"startTime":126.426,"endTime":127.926,"body":"somewhere that someone can use."},{"startTime":128.0,"endTime":131.69,"body":"in a, in a, in a nutshell, that's"},{"startTime":128.0,"endTime":131.69,"body":"kind of what we mean by, you know"},{"startTime":131.74,"endTime":133.18,"body":"when we say waterfall, right?"},{"startTime":133.39,"endTime":133.81,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":133.815,"endTime":133.965,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":133.965,"endTime":139.385,"body":"Winston Royce was credited with coming"},{"startTime":133.965,"endTime":139.385,"body":"up with the original kinda model"},{"startTime":139.39,"endTime":141.245,"body":"from which waterfall was derived."},{"startTime":141.785,"endTime":146.309,"body":"Although if you dig deeper, you'll"},{"startTime":141.785,"endTime":146.309,"body":"find that was a mistake really."},{"startTime":146.458,"endTime":151.02,"body":"That, that was, that was his original"},{"startTime":146.458,"endTime":151.02,"body":"model which he spent a good portion of his"},{"startTime":151.02,"endTime":152.82,"body":"life saying, Hey, you shouldn't do this."},{"startTime":153.035,"endTime":156.9,"body":"And then industry of course"},{"startTime":153.035,"endTime":156.9,"body":"saying like, Hey, go away."},{"startTime":156.93,"endTime":157.83,"body":"Like, who, who are you?"},{"startTime":159.27,"endTime":159.57,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":160.02,"endTime":163.14,"body":"In a nutshell, really there's,"},{"startTime":160.02,"endTime":163.14,"body":"there's nothing wrong with"},{"startTime":163.48,"endTime":165.32,"body":"that sequence of events."},{"startTime":166.19,"endTime":169.13,"body":"However, it's the timing of all that."},{"startTime":169.135,"endTime":175.04,"body":"So if something is taking many, many"},{"startTime":169.135,"endTime":175.04,"body":"months from discovery to delivery"},{"startTime":175.12,"endTime":179.67,"body":"that's when you may have issues because"},{"startTime":175.12,"endTime":179.67,"body":"the customer's needs have changed."},{"startTime":179.76,"endTime":182.07,"body":"Their business landscape has changed."},{"startTime":182.07,"endTime":185.05,"body":"Yeah they have competitors that"},{"startTime":182.07,"endTime":185.05,"body":"are doing something different and"},{"startTime":185.05,"endTime":186.49,"body":"they need you to pivot as well."},{"startTime":186.52,"endTime":186.73,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":187.18,"endTime":190.39,"body":"That wasn't always the case way"},{"startTime":187.18,"endTime":190.39,"body":"back when when this model first"},{"startTime":190.39,"endTime":192.76,"body":"came out, you had long lead times."},{"startTime":192.82,"endTime":193.0,"body":"Yeah"},{"startTime":193.1,"endTime":195.89,"body":"those things were easy to budget"},{"startTime":193.1,"endTime":195.89,"body":"for because you knew how many"},{"startTime":195.89,"endTime":197.54,"body":"people were working for how long."},{"startTime":197.93,"endTime":198.23,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":198.235,"endTime":199.79,"body":"And you knew, you knew their run rate."},{"startTime":199.85,"endTime":203.16,"body":"You could easily work out"},{"startTime":199.85,"endTime":203.16,"body":"the budget of the project."},{"startTime":204.18,"endTime":207.39,"body":"Timeline estimation was pretty"},{"startTime":204.18,"endTime":207.39,"body":"straightforward because you project"},{"startTime":207.39,"endTime":208.86,"body":"out these dates and say that's it."},{"startTime":209.07,"endTime":209.28,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":209.31,"endTime":211.29,"body":"Whether there's any basis for that."},{"startTime":211.77,"endTime":215.01,"body":"Um in terms of the person who"},{"startTime":211.77,"endTime":215.01,"body":"is, is projecting those dates,"},{"startTime":215.01,"endTime":219.01,"body":"have they done this sort of thing"},{"startTime":215.01,"endTime":219.01,"body":"before or not is it analogous?"},{"startTime":219.01,"endTime":221.86,"body":"Like, have, have they seen a"},{"startTime":219.01,"endTime":221.86,"body":"project like that similar to it?"},{"startTime":222.31,"endTime":223.81,"body":"Um, those things play in, into it."},{"startTime":223.81,"endTime":226.89,"body":"So there were some positives"},{"startTime":223.81,"endTime":226.89,"body":"to that approach way back."},{"startTime":226.89,"endTime":231.25,"body":"Right there were some cons as well"},{"startTime":226.89,"endTime":231.25,"body":"and obvious con would be that that"},{"startTime":231.25,"endTime":232.96,"body":"approach is inflexible to change."},{"startTime":233.35,"endTime":233.71,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":233.71,"endTime":239.01,"body":"The other obvious con is the sequential"},{"startTime":233.71,"endTime":239.01,"body":"nature of the project prolongs the"},{"startTime":239.01,"endTime":244.02,"body":"completion of the project because you have"},{"startTime":239.01,"endTime":244.02,"body":"to now move from one phase to the next."},{"startTime":244.05,"endTime":249.87,"body":"You had, you had phase gates at which the"},{"startTime":244.05,"endTime":249.87,"body":"customer was asked to sign off on that"},{"startTime":249.87,"endTime":251.79,"body":"previous phase as having been delivered."},{"startTime":252.3,"endTime":256.89,"body":"So there were some things that were not"},{"startTime":252.3,"endTime":256.89,"body":"so not so good let's see, what else?"},{"startTime":257.52,"endTime":262.71,"body":"For projects that have well-defined"},{"startTime":257.52,"endTime":262.71,"body":"requirements and not a lot of"},{"startTime":262.71,"endTime":267.62,"body":"scope for changes are ideal"},{"startTime":262.71,"endTime":267.62,"body":"in this sort of a methodology."},{"startTime":268.05,"endTime":272.49,"body":"I'm reading Wikipedia for for Winston"},{"startTime":268.05,"endTime":272.49,"body":"Royce, and apparently out of this paper"},{"startTime":272.495,"endTime":278.67,"body":"that waterfall was kind of coined later in"},{"startTime":272.495,"endTime":278.67,"body":"1976, he says the, there was a later paper"},{"startTime":278.76,"endTime":283.8,"body":"by Bell and Thayer in 1976 that they,"},{"startTime":278.76,"endTime":283.8,"body":"that they used the word waterfall to, to"},{"startTime":283.8,"endTime":286.15,"body":"refer to what Royce was talking about."},{"startTime":286.54,"endTime":290.08,"body":"And apparently Royce was talking"},{"startTime":286.54,"endTime":290.08,"body":"about all of these sequential steps"},{"startTime":290.53,"endTime":293.38,"body":"for very, very, very large projects."},{"startTime":293.59,"endTime":297.28,"body":"But he says, for smaller projects,"},{"startTime":293.59,"endTime":297.28,"body":"these two steps were sufficient."},{"startTime":297.33,"endTime":302.7,"body":"For smaller projects, just analysis"},{"startTime":297.33,"endTime":302.7,"body":"directly to coding were sufficient"},{"startTime":302.7,"endTime":306.66,"body":"steps in the quote methodology again,"},{"startTime":302.7,"endTime":306.66,"body":"that he never coined his waterfall."},{"startTime":306.85,"endTime":311.165,"body":"Maybe we'll go do a podcast episode of"},{"startTime":306.85,"endTime":311.165,"body":"specifically about his original paper, cuz"},{"startTime":311.165,"endTime":315.745,"body":"I like, I just pulled the bell and Thayer"},{"startTime":311.165,"endTime":315.745,"body":"paper: that's software requirements."},{"startTime":315.745,"endTime":316.885,"body":"Are they really a problem?"},{"startTime":317.225,"endTime":319.175,"body":"Bell and Thayer from 1976."},{"startTime":319.415,"endTime":321.845,"body":"It's, it's only eight pages."},{"startTime":322.235,"endTime":324.765,"body":"I'm pretty sure we could read all the"},{"startTime":322.235,"endTime":324.765,"body":"eight pages and summarize the whole paper."},{"startTime":324.765,"endTime":327.655,"body":"Right now we're not going to,  I,"},{"startTime":324.765,"endTime":327.655,"body":"I think we probably could do the"},{"startTime":327.66,"endTime":330.315,"body":"same thing with the, with the"},{"startTime":327.66,"endTime":330.315,"body":"Royce paper on a separate podcast."},{"startTime":330.32,"endTime":334.395,"body":"But, but anyway, like the point of getting"},{"startTime":330.32,"endTime":334.395,"body":"into this is to point out Waterfall, point"},{"startTime":334.395,"endTime":338.295,"body":"out that it's often, like the paper that"},{"startTime":334.395,"endTime":338.295,"body":"originally was detailed in is misquoted."},{"startTime":338.745,"endTime":343.845,"body":"All up and down to the point where other"},{"startTime":338.745,"endTime":343.845,"body":"papers were written about it and, and,"},{"startTime":343.965,"endTime":347.285,"body":"and it probably was both a great one"},{"startTime":343.965,"endTime":347.285,"body":"for us to start with and also not a"},{"startTime":347.285,"endTime":351.695,"body":"great one for us to start with because"},{"startTime":347.285,"endTime":351.695,"body":"Waterfall, like by the time you realize"},{"startTime":351.695,"endTime":355.055,"body":"that your management is pushing you"},{"startTime":351.695,"endTime":355.055,"body":"into using Waterfall, you may not even"},{"startTime":355.055,"endTime":357.575,"body":"realize that you are now using Waterfall."},{"startTime":357.785,"endTime":363.775,"body":"Because from the Royce steps of doing"},{"startTime":357.785,"endTime":363.775,"body":"all the requirements and then doing"},{"startTime":363.78,"endTime":367.135,"body":"all the analysis, and then doing"},{"startTime":363.78,"endTime":367.135,"body":"all the design, and then then moving"},{"startTime":367.135,"endTime":368.485,"body":"into coding and moving into testing."},{"startTime":368.675,"endTime":371.945,"body":"I can think about drawing a circle"},{"startTime":368.675,"endTime":371.945,"body":"around each one of these boxes."},{"startTime":373.4,"endTime":378.08,"body":"And making that a different team that does"},{"startTime":373.4,"endTime":378.08,"body":"that, like the bas do all the requirements"},{"startTime":378.08,"endTime":380.09,"body":"stuff and all the analysis steps."},{"startTime":380.24,"endTime":385.04,"body":"And then the architect does the design"},{"startTime":380.24,"endTime":385.04,"body":"step, and then my development teams"},{"startTime":385.22,"endTime":388.58,"body":"do the coding steps, and then my"},{"startTime":385.22,"endTime":388.58,"body":"testing team does the testing step."},{"startTime":388.94,"endTime":391.82,"body":"And then my implementation"},{"startTime":388.94,"endTime":391.82,"body":"team, my platform team does"},{"startTime":391.82,"endTime":394.01,"body":"the rollout to operations step."},{"startTime":394.37,"endTime":398.87,"body":"Like I, I, I may be the most agile company"},{"startTime":394.37,"endTime":398.87,"body":"in the world, but I've just implemented"},{"startTime":398.87,"endTime":402.02,"body":"Waterfall just by organizational design."},{"startTime":402.17,"endTime":404.925,"body":"So the, the tricky part of this and"},{"startTime":402.17,"endTime":404.925,"body":"the interesting part of this, someone"},{"startTime":404.925,"endTime":408.495,"body":"who maybe doesn't work in the industry,"},{"startTime":404.925,"endTime":408.495,"body":"right, who's like looking at it from"},{"startTime":408.495,"endTime":411.525,"body":"outside trying to understand what the"},{"startTime":408.495,"endTime":411.525,"body":"difference between these methodologies"},{"startTime":411.525,"endTime":417.935,"body":"is is that waterfall can kind of creep"},{"startTime":411.525,"endTime":417.935,"body":"into any of these methodologies by"},{"startTime":418.035,"endTime":420.315,"body":"poor organizational design choices."},{"startTime":421.155,"endTime":422.055,"body":"That's absolutely true."},{"startTime":422.055,"endTime":426.195,"body":"So organizational structure really"},{"startTime":422.055,"endTime":426.195,"body":"does drive the way people work, right?"},{"startTime":426.195,"endTime":429.405,"body":"Right so I think this is, that's a"},{"startTime":426.195,"endTime":429.405,"body":"good illustration you could be, like"},{"startTime":429.405,"endTime":432.855,"body":"you said, the most agile company,"},{"startTime":429.405,"endTime":432.855,"body":"but if you organized that way in your"},{"startTime":432.855,"endTime":435.825,"body":"example, if you had different teams"},{"startTime":432.855,"endTime":435.825,"body":"doing that, you're doing waterfall."},{"startTime":435.915,"endTime":439.365,"body":"Not only that, you have no idea"},{"startTime":435.915,"endTime":439.365,"body":"what the other team has done, right."},{"startTime":439.395,"endTime":441.055,"body":"Cuz they're handing off stuff to you."},{"startTime":441.055,"endTime":441.255,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":441.395,"endTime":445.685,"body":"So you have all that all the disadvantages"},{"startTime":441.395,"endTime":445.685,"body":"of not having the deep rooted knowledge"},{"startTime":445.995,"endTime":448.125,"body":"from, from other teams in your team."},{"startTime":448.155,"endTime":448.305,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":448.545,"endTime":451.245,"body":"Plus, plus the disadvantages"},{"startTime":448.545,"endTime":451.245,"body":"of giving something to you"},{"startTime":451.575,"endTime":453.015,"body":"just without context even."},{"startTime":453.045,"endTime":453.315,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":453.345,"endTime":454.755,"body":"Or inappropriate context."},{"startTime":454.755,"endTime":459.255,"body":"So the original intent gets diluted"},{"startTime":454.755,"endTime":459.255,"body":"every step of the way till it gets"},{"startTime":459.255,"endTime":460.755,"body":"to delivery, which is the last step"},{"startTime":461.335,"endTime":467.105,"body":"the scary part of this to me is"},{"startTime":461.335,"endTime":467.105,"body":"like the,  there's a S V P G article"},{"startTime":467.105,"endTime":468.985,"body":"about that, that names this as well."},{"startTime":468.985,"endTime":470.965,"body":"And there's a popular term,"},{"startTime":468.985,"endTime":470.965,"body":"the Silicon Valley term, they"},{"startTime":470.965,"endTime":473.485,"body":"call it dual track Agile."},{"startTime":473.665,"endTime":476.815,"body":"What they really mean is you have"},{"startTime":473.665,"endTime":476.815,"body":"a discovery and you have delivery."},{"startTime":477.055,"endTime":478.225,"body":"You have discovery and delivery, right?"},{"startTime":478.225,"endTime":481.345,"body":"And like discovery has some things,"},{"startTime":478.225,"endTime":481.345,"body":"some, some things that happen during"},{"startTime":481.345,"endTime":484.255,"body":"discovery and delivery has some"},{"startTime":481.345,"endTime":484.255,"body":"things that happen, but delivery"},{"startTime":484.255,"endTime":485.695,"body":"always happens after discovery."},{"startTime":486.535,"endTime":486.865,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":487.015,"endTime":491.305,"body":"I see a lot of vendor tools have their"},{"startTime":487.015,"endTime":491.305,"body":"own diagram for dual track Agile."},{"startTime":491.305,"endTime":493.525,"body":"They call it like, well, you wanna"},{"startTime":491.305,"endTime":493.525,"body":"do, make sure you're doing your"},{"startTime":493.53,"endTime":496.255,"body":"discovery so that you don't implement"},{"startTime":493.53,"endTime":496.255,"body":"things in the most expensive way."},{"startTime":496.255,"endTime":497.575,"body":"And they speak all the right words."},{"startTime":497.745,"endTime":497.805,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":498.405,"endTime":503.295,"body":"But when I look at their diagrams when"},{"startTime":498.405,"endTime":503.295,"body":"they're trying to explain this, I look"},{"startTime":503.295,"endTime":505.455,"body":"at it and I, and I see their diagrams."},{"startTime":505.455,"endTime":509.865,"body":"I've never seen a dual track agile"},{"startTime":505.455,"endTime":509.865,"body":"diagram with the discovery phase and the"},{"startTime":509.865,"endTime":515.685,"body":"delivery phase written in a way that, that"},{"startTime":509.865,"endTime":515.685,"body":"doesn't scare me, because it looks scaly"},{"startTime":515.69,"endTime":519.405,"body":"like Royce's analysis to coding step."},{"startTime":519.405,"endTime":522.945,"body":"And I'm worried that the, like people"},{"startTime":519.405,"endTime":522.945,"body":"trying to sell their tool are gonna"},{"startTime":522.945,"endTime":527.565,"body":"make well, you'll have the discovery"},{"startTime":522.945,"endTime":527.565,"body":"team over here and the software delivery"},{"startTime":527.57,"endTime":532.365,"body":"team over here, and the discovery team"},{"startTime":527.57,"endTime":532.365,"body":"is responsible for making sure that the"},{"startTime":532.365,"endTime":536.545,"body":"development team knows what to build"},{"startTime":532.365,"endTime":536.545,"body":"and that we it's, it's, it's usable and"},{"startTime":536.545,"endTime":538.285,"body":"feasible and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":538.525,"endTime":541.465,"body":"You know, and it's some other"},{"startTime":538.525,"endTime":541.465,"body":"person's responsibility."},{"startTime":541.945,"endTime":544.255,"body":"No, that's the development"},{"startTime":541.945,"endTime":544.255,"body":"team's responsibility."},{"startTime":544.435,"endTime":548.035,"body":"Like that, that's, that's what scares"},{"startTime":544.435,"endTime":548.035,"body":"me about Waterfall is like, it creeps in"},{"startTime":548.035,"endTime":550.665,"body":"this whole let's pull everything apart."},{"startTime":551.175,"endTime":554.805,"body":"And give it to different people"},{"startTime":551.175,"endTime":554.805,"body":"who don't talk to each other and"},{"startTime":554.805,"endTime":555.855,"body":"don't know what the end goal is."},{"startTime":556.095,"endTime":556.305,"body":"Like."},{"startTime":556.455,"endTime":562.605,"body":"Let's take the system, the, the Deming"},{"startTime":556.455,"endTime":562.605,"body":"system approach and let's draw a, a circle"},{"startTime":562.695,"endTime":565.785,"body":"around every single little step in the"},{"startTime":562.695,"endTime":565.785,"body":"system that's supposed to work together."},{"startTime":566.175,"endTime":571.305,"body":"Supposed see one team executing all these"},{"startTime":566.175,"endTime":571.305,"body":"little steps together along the way."},{"startTime":571.425,"endTime":575.085,"body":"And let's draw a little line over in,"},{"startTime":571.425,"endTime":575.085,"body":"in, in, in terms of like, let's try"},{"startTime":575.085,"endTime":582.015,"body":"to optimize for some kind of financial"},{"startTime":575.085,"endTime":582.015,"body":"reason or managerial reason or something."},{"startTime":582.015,"endTime":585.855,"body":"And let's try to, to, to,"},{"startTime":582.015,"endTime":585.855,"body":"to, to game the system."},{"startTime":586.905,"endTime":590.355,"body":"You know, try to save some money or"},{"startTime":586.905,"endTime":590.355,"body":"whatever by drawing a little line and,"},{"startTime":590.355,"endTime":592.935,"body":"and saying, oh, well you're the only"},{"startTime":590.355,"endTime":592.935,"body":"people that can go do this, and you're"},{"startTime":592.935,"endTime":594.015,"body":"the only people that can go do this."},{"startTime":594.255,"endTime":596.715,"body":"And that's just not the way"},{"startTime":594.255,"endTime":596.715,"body":"that it's supposed to work."},{"startTime":596.865,"endTime":602.085,"body":"So when I, when e even, even like even"},{"startTime":596.865,"endTime":602.085,"body":"people that are experts in Agile, like"},{"startTime":602.085,"endTime":606.015,"body":"this whole dual track agile thing that"},{"startTime":602.085,"endTime":606.015,"body":"I was reading, like they do this all the"},{"startTime":606.015,"endTime":611.175,"body":"time and I could see any, any lay person,"},{"startTime":606.015,"endTime":611.175,"body":"anyone who's not an expert, Would see a,"},{"startTime":611.175,"endTime":613.155,"body":"a diagram like that and be like, oh, easy."},{"startTime":613.155,"endTime":615.525,"body":"I'll just form a discovery team"},{"startTime":613.155,"endTime":615.525,"body":"and they'll be the one that"},{"startTime":615.525,"endTime":619.525,"body":"does all the discovery and con"},{"startTime":615.525,"endTime":619.525,"body":"congratulations your waterfall."},{"startTime":619.585,"endTime":619.975,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":619.975,"endTime":623.18,"body":"It's a two step waterfall, that"},{"startTime":619.975,"endTime":623.18,"body":"dual track system in my view."},{"startTime":623.18,"endTime":623.48,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":623.485,"endTime":623.69,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":623.75,"endTime":627.99,"body":"So, so it's still waterfall, it's"},{"startTime":623.75,"endTime":627.99,"body":"two steps, and it's, that's not"},{"startTime":627.99,"endTime":629.76,"body":"in and of itself a bad thing."},{"startTime":629.76,"endTime":634.08,"body":"What is a bad thing is to your point,"},{"startTime":629.76,"endTime":634.08,"body":"different teams are doing this."},{"startTime":634.08,"endTime":634.14,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":634.32,"endTime":634.68,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":634.68,"endTime":637.14,"body":"So you've again got the same one"},{"startTime":634.68,"endTime":637.14,"body":"person tyranny, one person or one"},{"startTime":637.14,"endTime":638.49,"body":"person or one person's tyranny."},{"startTime":638.495,"endTime":638.7,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":638.7,"endTime":643.0,"body":"So you've got the tyranny of, of,"},{"startTime":638.7,"endTime":643.0,"body":"of, of distance from one another."},{"startTime":643.0,"endTime":643.33,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":643.36,"endTime":645.04,"body":"Which, which is a huge problem."},{"startTime":645.14,"endTime":648.41,"body":"So we spent a good amount of time on"},{"startTime":645.14,"endTime":648.41,"body":"Waterfall Has there ever been a time"},{"startTime":648.41,"endTime":652.3,"body":"when management mandated you know,"},{"startTime":648.41,"endTime":652.3,"body":"forced working like this on you?"},{"startTime":652.3,"endTime":656.14,"body":"But I mean, management is the if you"},{"startTime":652.3,"endTime":656.14,"body":"go with Deming not to, not to shortcut"},{"startTime":656.53,"endTime":659.84,"body":"our, our Future Deming podcast,"},{"startTime":656.53,"endTime":659.84,"body":"but Deming's number was  management"},{"startTime":659.84,"endTime":663.84,"body":"has control of 94% of the process"},{"startTime":659.84,"endTime":663.84,"body":"and only 6% is up to the workers."},{"startTime":663.84,"endTime":667.26,"body":"So if management basically says,"},{"startTime":663.84,"endTime":667.26,"body":"Hey, I, I love this great system you"},{"startTime":667.26,"endTime":671.28,"body":"have about taking customer's feedback"},{"startTime":667.26,"endTime":671.28,"body":"and, and, and coding it back into"},{"startTime":671.28,"endTime":674.33,"body":"the programs and, and making the"},{"startTime":671.28,"endTime":674.33,"body":"software much more effective for the"},{"startTime":674.33,"endTime":675.77,"body":"customer and making the customer happy."},{"startTime":676.01,"endTime":679.19,"body":"But also if you can draw boxes around"},{"startTime":676.01,"endTime":679.19,"body":"like, well, all your testing happens"},{"startTime":679.19,"endTime":681.98,"body":"over here, and all your, whatever"},{"startTime":679.19,"endTime":681.98,"body":"happens over here, you can very quickly"},{"startTime":681.98,"endTime":688.435,"body":"destroy an organization with, with"},{"startTime":681.98,"endTime":688.435,"body":"a tiny little administrative pencil"},{"startTime":688.435,"endTime":691.715,"body":"whipping change has there ever been"},{"startTime":688.435,"endTime":691.715,"body":"a time when some, when management has"},{"startTime":691.715,"endTime":695.85,"body":"done something like this, kind of forced"},{"startTime":691.715,"endTime":695.85,"body":"something like this down and what, what"},{"startTime":695.85,"endTime":697.32,"body":"was the, what was the effect of that?"},{"startTime":698.115,"endTime":699.585,"body":"Well, I think, I'm sure, right?"},{"startTime":699.585,"endTime":702.625,"body":"I'm sure there, there have been"},{"startTime":699.585,"endTime":702.625,"body":"plenty of times when this happens."},{"startTime":702.625,"endTime":705.055,"body":"And it's because again,"},{"startTime":702.625,"endTime":705.055,"body":"look at what they know."},{"startTime":705.06,"endTime":707.875,"body":"They the management,"},{"startTime":705.06,"endTime":707.875,"body":"they know what they know."},{"startTime":707.935,"endTime":709.555,"body":"It's not the newer systems."},{"startTime":709.555,"endTime":709.825,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":709.825,"endTime":709.885,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":710.185,"endTime":715.815,"body":"So they say, well there's comfort in this"},{"startTime":710.185,"endTime":715.815,"body":"do it this way because I, I've been in"},{"startTime":715.815,"endTime":717.705,"body":"projects like that before as a manager."},{"startTime":718.005,"endTime":718.185,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":718.425,"endTime":722.095,"body":"And all of these events, et"},{"startTime":718.425,"endTime":722.095,"body":"cetera, they, the vernacular,"},{"startTime":722.095,"endTime":723.415,"body":"everything's familiar to me."},{"startTime":723.505,"endTime":723.895,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":724.195,"endTime":727.335,"body":"Uh I know what, what, what"},{"startTime":724.195,"endTime":727.335,"body":"project management is."},{"startTime":727.335,"endTime":728.775,"body":"So that's what we're gonna use."},{"startTime":728.835,"endTime":731.115,"body":"Mm-hmm so that, that happens all the time."},{"startTime":731.385,"endTime":734.455,"body":"I wanna talk about the"},{"startTime":731.385,"endTime":734.455,"body":"hidden mandates as well."},{"startTime":734.485,"endTime":735.595,"body":"Yeah that's, that's what I was gonna say."},{"startTime":735.595,"endTime":738.805,"body":"I was like, may, maybe you should"},{"startTime":735.595,"endTime":738.805,"body":"like pick, like pick a, pick a mandate"},{"startTime":738.805,"endTime":740.935,"body":"that, like was, was handed down."},{"startTime":741.655,"endTime":744.565,"body":"That wasn't specifically"},{"startTime":741.655,"endTime":744.565,"body":"like, Hey, use Waterfall."},{"startTime":744.565,"endTime":748.045,"body":"But it was like that, that the"},{"startTime":744.565,"endTime":748.045,"body":"spirit of what they a, were asking."},{"startTime":748.84,"endTime":753.01,"body":"Was actually implementing Waterfall over"},{"startTime":748.84,"endTime":753.01,"body":"maybe a more agile process or whatever."},{"startTime":753.22,"endTime":753.37,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":753.37,"endTime":756.69,"body":"I mean, lo most times that"},{"startTime":753.37,"endTime":756.69,"body":"happens for companies that are"},{"startTime":756.69,"endTime":758.73,"body":"looking to become more agile."},{"startTime":758.735,"endTime":760.54,"body":"Mm-hmm and again, it's"},{"startTime":758.735,"endTime":760.54,"body":"the comfort factor, right?"},{"startTime":760.54,"endTime":762.21,"body":"They don't know how to work in Agile."},{"startTime":762.21,"endTime":763.5,"body":"So they say, we're gonna be agile."},{"startTime":763.65,"endTime":763.77,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":763.8,"endTime":765.87,"body":"We're gonna work in an agile way, right?"},{"startTime":765.87,"endTime":768.12,"body":"And they'll pick somebody,"},{"startTime":765.87,"endTime":768.12,"body":"Mary Fred, right?"},{"startTime":768.12,"endTime":771.21,"body":"You're gonna go ahead and create"},{"startTime":768.12,"endTime":771.21,"body":"a project plan first, right?"},{"startTime":771.21,"endTime":773.49,"body":"And you'll do this by yourself,"},{"startTime":771.21,"endTime":773.49,"body":"Gord, cuz you're a project"},{"startTime":773.495,"endTime":775.5,"body":"manager but we're agile, right?"},{"startTime":775.5,"endTime":778.92,"body":"So what we'll do is we'll get"},{"startTime":775.5,"endTime":778.92,"body":"together every morning for 15"},{"startTime":778.92,"endTime":783.09,"body":"minutes and we'll just talk about"},{"startTime":778.92,"endTime":783.09,"body":"stuff, and that's our daily standup."},{"startTime":783.09,"endTime":783.75,"body":"But we're really not."},{"startTime":784.05,"endTime":785.73,"body":"So that, that happens all the time."},{"startTime":785.97,"endTime":790.77,"body":"People use agile terminology"},{"startTime":785.97,"endTime":790.77,"body":"to execute in a waterfall."},{"startTime":791.37,"endTime":791.82,"body":"Way."},{"startTime":791.88,"endTime":792.06,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":792.09,"endTime":792.39,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":792.39,"endTime":794.28,"body":"That is the most common"},{"startTime":792.39,"endTime":794.28,"body":"thing that I've seen."},{"startTime":794.285,"endTime":798.0,"body":"Mm-hmm in companies that are looking"},{"startTime":794.285,"endTime":798.0,"body":"to, looking to transform themselves."},{"startTime":798.0,"endTime":798.09,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":798.33,"endTime":799.44,"body":"They start there."},{"startTime":799.86,"endTime":803.4,"body":"What's, what's like, is there"},{"startTime":799.86,"endTime":803.4,"body":"an example of like one practice"},{"startTime":803.49,"endTime":806.34,"body":"that people mainly go to to push?"},{"startTime":806.52,"endTime":810.33,"body":"That's an, that's basically I was gonna"},{"startTime":806.52,"endTime":810.33,"body":"say anti agile, but what I really mean is"},{"startTime":810.33,"endTime":812.85,"body":"like they're, they're pushing waterfall"},{"startTime":810.33,"endTime":812.85,"body":"when they don't really realize it."},{"startTime":813.3,"endTime":816.15,"body":"Like, is there one specific thing"},{"startTime":813.3,"endTime":816.15,"body":"that you've seen at companies?"},{"startTime":816.3,"endTime":819.99,"body":"I think the, the most obvious"},{"startTime":816.3,"endTime":819.99,"body":"one is to create a timeline and"},{"startTime":819.99,"endTime":821.67,"body":"then tell you to execute to it."},{"startTime":822.09,"endTime":825.84,"body":"Right so I mean, that happens, that"},{"startTime":822.09,"endTime":825.84,"body":"happens way too frequently out there"},{"startTime":825.94,"endTime":830.29,"body":"somebody picks a date, Somebody usually"},{"startTime":825.94,"endTime":830.29,"body":"fairly high up in the organization says,"},{"startTime":830.295,"endTime":831.97,"body":"we want this, we want this by this date."},{"startTime":832.0,"endTime":832.84,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":833.11,"endTime":837.635,"body":"Now, what I'm not saying here, to be clear"},{"startTime":833.11,"endTime":837.635,"body":"is you cannot use the date as a driver."},{"startTime":837.665,"endTime":841.325,"body":"You can still do that because maybe"},{"startTime":837.665,"endTime":841.325,"body":"you have regulatory requirements to"},{"startTime":841.325,"endTime":844.595,"body":"meet by a certain date, or there's"},{"startTime":841.325,"endTime":844.595,"body":"a conference happening at a certain"},{"startTime":844.6,"endTime":846.905,"body":"time of the year, and you have to"},{"startTime":844.6,"endTime":846.905,"body":"have something ready to show there."},{"startTime":847.085,"endTime":847.655,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":847.955,"endTime":850.775,"body":"Those can be, those can"},{"startTime":847.955,"endTime":850.775,"body":"be used as drivers Yeah."},{"startTime":850.805,"endTime":854.095,"body":"For the direction you move"},{"startTime":850.805,"endTime":854.095,"body":"in, but not the execution."},{"startTime":854.095,"endTime":858.545,"body":"Right in other words, you don't put"},{"startTime":854.095,"endTime":858.545,"body":"those milestones in place and say make"},{"startTime":858.545,"endTime":862.445,"body":"this happen by then, but we, we don't"},{"startTime":858.545,"endTime":862.445,"body":"even know what this is right yet."},{"startTime":862.535,"endTime":863.255,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":863.555,"endTime":866.885,"body":"Well, if we don't know what this is,"},{"startTime":863.555,"endTime":866.885,"body":"then they shrink back into, well, let's"},{"startTime":867.285,"endTime":868.805,"body":"go, go find out all the requirements."},{"startTime":868.805,"endTime":869.045,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":869.105,"endTime":869.305,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":869.315,"endTime":872.705,"body":"So now we've squarely found"},{"startTime":869.315,"endTime":872.705,"body":"ourselves in waterfall."},{"startTime":872.855,"endTime":876.365,"body":"Go find out all the requirements,"},{"startTime":872.855,"endTime":876.365,"body":"and then when you've got those, guess"},{"startTime":876.365,"endTime":879.425,"body":"what, give 'em to the architects"},{"startTime":876.365,"endTime":879.425,"body":"or whomever to do the design work."},{"startTime":879.875,"endTime":881.975,"body":"Now you're squarely in the waterfall lane."},{"startTime":882.005,"endTime":882.275,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":882.485,"endTime":888.225,"body":"To me, where Waterfall gets its foothold"},{"startTime":882.485,"endTime":888.225,"body":"in an Agile organization is, is this exact"},{"startTime":888.225,"endTime":893.085,"body":"step that you're talking about is usually"},{"startTime":888.225,"endTime":893.085,"body":"it's, it's, we aren't sure what the"},{"startTime":893.085,"endTime":898.245,"body":"customer wants, or it wasn't clear or, so"},{"startTime":893.085,"endTime":898.245,"body":"something happened where we, we realized"},{"startTime":898.245,"endTime":899.98,"body":"it wasn't clear what the customer wanted."},{"startTime":900.233,"endTime":905.823,"body":"And responding quickly, more quickly"},{"startTime":900.233,"endTime":905.823,"body":"is never kind of considered, like"},{"startTime":906.333,"endTime":909.033,"body":"spending more time figuring out what"},{"startTime":906.333,"endTime":909.033,"body":"the customer wants or locking 'em"},{"startTime":909.033,"endTime":912.093,"body":"into a contract or whatever is kind of"},{"startTime":909.033,"endTime":912.093,"body":"the way the organization goes because"},{"startTime":912.093,"endTime":913.893,"body":"they're looking for safety, right?"},{"startTime":913.893,"endTime":917.433,"body":"They're looking for safety and"},{"startTime":913.893,"endTime":917.433,"body":"predictability and, and they go the road"},{"startTime":917.433,"endTime":922.863,"body":"of separating the coding from the testing,"},{"startTime":917.433,"endTime":922.863,"body":"from the implementation of production."},{"startTime":922.863,"endTime":927.473,"body":"And, and I would also add when I was"},{"startTime":922.863,"endTime":927.473,"body":"on development teams the testing and"},{"startTime":927.473,"endTime":932.213,"body":"the coding being pulled apart was"},{"startTime":927.473,"endTime":932.213,"body":"usually much more difficult than the"},{"startTime":932.218,"endTime":936.863,"body":"implementation of the code that was"},{"startTime":932.218,"endTime":936.863,"body":"ready to roll out into production."},{"startTime":937.763,"endTime":942.123,"body":"And then, like sometimes production, you"},{"startTime":937.763,"endTime":942.123,"body":"have a, a different set of tests, like"},{"startTime":942.123,"endTime":944.943,"body":"a business acceptance kind of deal that"},{"startTime":942.123,"endTime":944.943,"body":"happens when stuff rolls into production."},{"startTime":944.948,"endTime":950.343,"body":"Yeah, usually it's harder to separate"},{"startTime":944.948,"endTime":950.343,"body":"the, the internal testers and coders"},{"startTime":950.958,"endTime":955.558,"body":"than it is to separate the go to"},{"startTime":950.958,"endTime":955.558,"body":"prod activities, like the platform"},{"startTime":955.558,"endTime":957.958,"body":"activities, like I, I, I see those."},{"startTime":957.958,"endTime":962.578,"body":"Usually if, if I come into a company and"},{"startTime":957.958,"endTime":962.578,"body":"I see the teams that are producing code"},{"startTime":962.668,"endTime":966.238,"body":"are not also shipping it to production"},{"startTime":962.668,"endTime":966.238,"body":"and then working with production users."},{"startTime":966.613,"endTime":971.173,"body":"And somehow there's a toss it over the"},{"startTime":966.613,"endTime":971.173,"body":"wall to another team that rolls it out"},{"startTime":971.173,"endTime":973.843,"body":"in a prod and does some kind of u a"},{"startTime":971.173,"endTime":973.843,"body":"T activities or something like that."},{"startTime":974.083,"endTime":978.073,"body":"Then I, I, I have an indication"},{"startTime":974.083,"endTime":978.073,"body":"that now there's some kind of"},{"startTime":978.223,"endTime":979.903,"body":"problem and I might be waterfall."},{"startTime":980.113,"endTime":983.178,"body":"That, that's, that's usually the"},{"startTime":980.113,"endTime":983.178,"body":"first thing I look for is like is"},{"startTime":983.178,"endTime":986.658,"body":"it, are the teams building it, owning"},{"startTime":983.178,"endTime":986.658,"body":"it all the way through the cycle?"},{"startTime":987.198,"endTime":990.048,"body":"Um, because if not, then I think"},{"startTime":987.198,"endTime":990.048,"body":"there's some circles around these"},{"startTime":990.048,"endTime":993.443,"body":"boxes and, that would be a quick"},{"startTime":990.048,"endTime":993.443,"body":"indicator to me, like a quick, like"},{"startTime":993.863,"endTime":995.453,"body":"how, which way is the wind blowing?"},{"startTime":995.453,"endTime":998.703,"body":"Oh, it's blowing in the direction of"},{"startTime":995.453,"endTime":998.703,"body":"waterfall to let me know, you know?"},{"startTime":998.703,"endTime":1002.723,"body":"And then, and then you can, once that"},{"startTime":998.703,"endTime":1002.723,"body":"kind of takes hold, you can look back"},{"startTime":1002.728,"endTime":1006.263,"body":"and be like, oh, well now we have people"},{"startTime":1002.728,"endTime":1006.263,"body":"whose job is to talk with the customers"},{"startTime":1006.263,"endTime":1009.983,"body":"and get the, all the requirements and"},{"startTime":1006.263,"endTime":1009.983,"body":"then bring them to the development teams."},{"startTime":1009.983,"endTime":1012.833,"body":"And it's not encouraged for the"},{"startTime":1009.983,"endTime":1012.833,"body":"development teams to talk to the"},{"startTime":1012.833,"endTime":1014.783,"body":"like, Ooh, I don't wanna let my."},{"startTime":1015.128,"endTime":1016.628,"body":"Developers talk to customers."},{"startTime":1016.628,"endTime":1019.538,"body":"Oh, they're not good at talking"},{"startTime":1016.628,"endTime":1019.538,"body":"to cus they're not quite polished."},{"startTime":1019.538,"endTime":1023.108,"body":"I'm gonna have my salespeople talk"},{"startTime":1019.538,"endTime":1023.108,"body":"to customers and get all their"},{"startTime":1023.108,"endTime":1027.223,"body":"requirements and and, and then it's"},{"startTime":1023.108,"endTime":1027.223,"body":"just, it is just a steep, downhill"},{"startTime":1027.743,"endTime":1030.403,"body":"roll from there to mediocrity."},{"startTime":1030.733,"endTime":1031.183,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1031.183,"endTime":1034.543,"body":"I, I, I think I just to go back"},{"startTime":1031.183,"endTime":1034.543,"body":"to the point you made earlier"},{"startTime":1034.543,"endTime":1036.703,"body":"about the structure of driving."},{"startTime":1037.318,"endTime":1038.788,"body":"The behavior of the organization."},{"startTime":1038.788,"endTime":1039.088,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1039.478,"endTime":1039.568,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1039.658,"endTime":1041.008,"body":"So, so there's a lot there."},{"startTime":1041.008,"endTime":1044.148,"body":"I mean, who are the developers"},{"startTime":1041.008,"endTime":1044.148,"body":"report up through, right."},{"startTime":1044.148,"endTime":1044.328,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1044.538,"endTime":1047.388,"body":"Those sorts of questions"},{"startTime":1044.538,"endTime":1047.388,"body":"should be asked, but yeah."},{"startTime":1047.393,"endTime":1049.968,"body":"You have testers and they test Yeah."},{"startTime":1050.028,"endTime":1052.878,"body":"But there's nothing for them to"},{"startTime":1050.028,"endTime":1052.878,"body":"test Right, right now, because"},{"startTime":1052.878,"endTime":1054.228,"body":"we've just started development."},{"startTime":1054.233,"endTime":1058.338,"body":"So developers go code and then"},{"startTime":1054.233,"endTime":1058.338,"body":"throw it over the wall at testers."},{"startTime":1058.488,"endTime":1058.728,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1058.728,"endTime":1061.428,"body":"That, that's another smell"},{"startTime":1058.728,"endTime":1061.428,"body":"that I look for as well."},{"startTime":1061.788,"endTime":1062.568,"body":"That's waterfall."},{"startTime":1062.568,"endTime":1064.188,"body":"I mean, you have a handoff right there."},{"startTime":1064.248,"endTime":1064.368,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1064.968,"endTime":1069.458,"body":"It's also very demoralizing for, for"},{"startTime":1064.968,"endTime":1069.458,"body":"the testers to just sit around and wait."},{"startTime":1069.758,"endTime":1073.688,"body":"It leads to basically"},{"startTime":1069.758,"endTime":1073.688,"body":"this blame culture right."},{"startTime":1073.688,"endTime":1077.178,"body":"At the end when things don't get"},{"startTime":1073.688,"endTime":1077.178,"body":"delivered you blame the testers."},{"startTime":1077.178,"endTime":1078.168,"body":"They didn't finish on time."},{"startTime":1078.168,"endTime":1079.488,"body":"Testers blame the developers."},{"startTime":1079.548,"endTime":1079.698,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1079.698,"endTime":1080.958,"body":"Who didn't hand over in time."},{"startTime":1081.228,"endTime":1083.808,"body":"I mean, like you said, it's"},{"startTime":1081.228,"endTime":1083.808,"body":"a steep downward spiral."},{"startTime":1083.838,"endTime":1084.108,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1084.108,"endTime":1088.698,"body":"It's, and that, that was like to, to,"},{"startTime":1084.108,"endTime":1088.698,"body":"to kind of put a bow on this category"},{"startTime":1088.698,"endTime":1091.808,"body":"like that, that ever been a time where"},{"startTime":1088.698,"endTime":1091.808,"body":"you're forced to use one of these"},{"startTime":1091.808,"endTime":1095.108,"body":"methodologies where management kind of"},{"startTime":1091.808,"endTime":1095.108,"body":"mandated one of these methodologies."},{"startTime":1095.318,"endTime":1099.968,"body":"Like, nobody, like again, my experience,"},{"startTime":1095.318,"endTime":1099.968,"body":"nobody really mandates that use waterfall."},{"startTime":1100.148,"endTime":1103.688,"body":"Meaning, meaning all of the requirements"},{"startTime":1100.148,"endTime":1103.688,"body":"of, although I was on a program one"},{"startTime":1103.688,"endTime":1107.498,"body":"time where they did ask, they did"},{"startTime":1103.688,"endTime":1107.498,"body":"continually ask, I want to know all the"},{"startTime":1107.498,"endTime":1110.348,"body":"requirements for the entire project."},{"startTime":1111.218,"endTime":1115.458,"body":"Project for all the time basically."},{"startTime":1115.638,"endTime":1115.848,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1115.853,"endTime":1118.158,"body":"So, so basically tell, tell me"},{"startTime":1115.853,"endTime":1118.158,"body":"all the requirements for your"},{"startTime":1118.158,"endTime":1120.638,"body":"product now and in the future."},{"startTime":1121.043,"endTime":1124.223,"body":"Which was like, when you say it"},{"startTime":1121.043,"endTime":1124.223,"body":"like that, it's a ludicrous ask."},{"startTime":1124.223,"endTime":1124.883,"body":"Completely ludicrous."},{"startTime":1125.063,"endTime":1126.443,"body":"But, but that is what they asked."},{"startTime":1126.443,"endTime":1128.783,"body":"That is what they, that"},{"startTime":1126.443,"endTime":1128.783,"body":"legitimately with a straight face,"},{"startTime":1128.788,"endTime":1129.953,"body":"that is what they were asking."},{"startTime":1130.313,"endTime":1134.923,"body":"And and they were, they basically were,"},{"startTime":1130.313,"endTime":1134.923,"body":"for every time that that manager asked"},{"startTime":1135.253,"endTime":1140.943,"body":"for that, that ludicrous, uh demand"},{"startTime":1135.253,"endTime":1140.943,"body":"it forced the program back to, well, I"},{"startTime":1140.943,"endTime":1144.963,"body":"guess everybody has to participate in"},{"startTime":1140.943,"endTime":1144.963,"body":"requirements analysis now and stop working"},{"startTime":1144.963,"endTime":1148.583,"body":"on code because that, that was the only"},{"startTime":1144.963,"endTime":1148.583,"body":"way that you could punch out a timeline"},{"startTime":1148.583,"endTime":1152.513,"body":"that was 18 months in the future if we"},{"startTime":1148.583,"endTime":1152.513,"body":"all stopped what we were doing for a"},{"startTime":1152.513,"endTime":1156.503,"body":"couple months and just did requirements"},{"startTime":1152.513,"endTime":1156.503,"body":"analysis and talk to customers about"},{"startTime":1156.503,"endTime":1160.103,"body":"what they might, what they might want,"},{"startTime":1156.503,"endTime":1160.103,"body":"not necessarily what they need or what"},{"startTime":1160.103,"endTime":1161.753,"body":"they need immediately want or whatever."},{"startTime":1161.753,"endTime":1161.843,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1162.173,"endTime":1165.688,"body":"And and, and yeah it was, that was"},{"startTime":1162.173,"endTime":1165.688,"body":"always a constant fight on that program."},{"startTime":1166.348,"endTime":1170.038,"body":"You know, I've, I've lived that life in"},{"startTime":1166.348,"endTime":1170.038,"body":"the past people spend hours and hours"},{"startTime":1170.038,"endTime":1172.048,"body":"on creating polished PRDs and Sure."},{"startTime":1172.468,"endTime":1175.348,"body":"You know, they get signed off and"},{"startTime":1172.468,"endTime":1175.348,"body":"versioned and all of that stuff."},{"startTime":1175.348,"endTime":1179.158,"body":"Right so it, these, these are"},{"startTime":1175.348,"endTime":1179.158,"body":"little smells you can look for."},{"startTime":1179.158,"endTime":1183.058,"body":"I mean, is your organization looking"},{"startTime":1179.158,"endTime":1183.058,"body":"or demanding a P R D from you?"},{"startTime":1183.418,"endTime":1187.288,"body":"Which they then in turn, say, should"},{"startTime":1183.418,"endTime":1187.288,"body":"be signed off by the customer, right?"},{"startTime":1187.293,"endTime":1187.378,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1188.008,"endTime":1190.468,"body":"You're definitely not working"},{"startTime":1188.008,"endTime":1190.468,"body":"in Azure way at that stage."},{"startTime":1190.558,"endTime":1190.738,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1190.983,"endTime":1191.188,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1191.818,"endTime":1192.508,"body":"So what is it?"},{"startTime":1192.928,"endTime":1196.168,"body":"You're gonna do all the requirements,"},{"startTime":1192.928,"endTime":1196.168,"body":"sign 'em off, and then what, what's next?"},{"startTime":1196.173,"endTime":1200.278,"body":"So immediately you're now into"},{"startTime":1196.173,"endTime":1200.278,"body":"another step of the waterfall."},{"startTime":1200.278,"endTime":1202.828,"body":"Well, you're gonna, you're gonna do"},{"startTime":1200.278,"endTime":1202.828,"body":"all the requirements, sign them off,"},{"startTime":1202.828,"endTime":1204.243,"body":"and then ride off in the sunset."},{"startTime":1204.483,"endTime":1205.203,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1207.324,"endTime":1210.804,"body":"I think the summary of what we've said"},{"startTime":1207.324,"endTime":1210.804,"body":"so far is Waterfall is not something that"},{"startTime":1210.804,"endTime":1218.544,"body":"specifically gets implemented is something"},{"startTime":1210.804,"endTime":1218.544,"body":"that sort of piecemeal gets pushed on you."},{"startTime":1218.994,"endTime":1219.654,"body":"It's, yeah."},{"startTime":1219.774,"endTime":1219.984,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1219.984,"endTime":1222.564,"body":"That's, it gets defaulted"},{"startTime":1219.984,"endTime":1222.564,"body":"basically, right?"},{"startTime":1222.754,"endTime":1225.034,"body":"It's clandestine implementation."},{"startTime":1225.784,"endTime":1230.254,"body":"Clin clandestine is clandestinely"},{"startTime":1225.784,"endTime":1230.254,"body":"a word?, clandestine ces Lee."},{"startTime":1230.614,"endTime":1236.014,"body":"Secretly, I don't know, secretly,"},{"startTime":1230.614,"endTime":1236.014,"body":"emotionally, quietly steal."},{"startTime":1236.014,"endTime":1237.424,"body":"Definitely, definitely Stealthily."},{"startTime":1237.544,"endTime":1237.604,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1237.604,"endTime":1238.774,"body":"Stealthily is definitely a award."},{"startTime":1239.659,"endTime":1240.619,"body":"But that's how it happens."},{"startTime":1240.669,"endTime":1243.999,"body":". It happens in little concessions of"},{"startTime":1240.669,"endTime":1243.999,"body":"like, management, oh, I need you to"},{"startTime":1244.939,"endTime":1246.049,"body":"I know this, you're doing this now."},{"startTime":1246.054,"endTime":1249.209,"body":"Next later roadmap that goes"},{"startTime":1246.054,"endTime":1249.209,"body":"out three, maybe six months."},{"startTime":1249.269,"endTime":1251.854,"body":"Nah I really need a 12 month plan."},{"startTime":1251.854,"endTime":1252.094,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1252.154,"endTime":1253.864,"body":"Give a 12 month plan."},{"startTime":1253.894,"endTime":1254.224,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1254.974,"endTime":1256.564,"body":"So that's go, that's"},{"startTime":1254.974,"endTime":1256.564,"body":"covertly then as well."},{"startTime":1256.564,"endTime":1257.224,"body":"Covertly."},{"startTime":1257.229,"endTime":1257.524,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1257.584,"endTime":1258.154,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1258.754,"endTime":1262.984,"body":"Emotionally you're welcome, Clint."},{"startTime":1262.984,"endTime":1266.284,"body":"Like that one person enjoys my nonsense."},{"startTime":1266.564,"endTime":1269.449,"body":"We should move on to Scrum because"},{"startTime":1266.564,"endTime":1269.449,"body":"probably a lot of people listen to this"},{"startTime":1269.689,"endTime":1274.879,"body":"probably either are using or have used"},{"startTime":1269.689,"endTime":1274.879,"body":"Scrum I'm super interested in jumping"},{"startTime":1274.879,"endTime":1281.179,"body":"straight into, has there ever been a time"},{"startTime":1274.879,"endTime":1281.179,"body":"when management forced you mandated scrum."},{"startTime":1281.929,"endTime":1285.649,"body":"I don't recall that in my experience,"},{"startTime":1281.929,"endTime":1285.649,"body":"that they come in and say, you"},{"startTime":1285.654,"endTime":1287.929,"body":"will use Scrum it may happen."},{"startTime":1288.109,"endTime":1288.799,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1289.249,"endTime":1293.819,"body":"But what do you do in that situation, I"},{"startTime":1289.249,"endTime":1293.819,"body":"guess is the author's question, right?"},{"startTime":1293.869,"endTime":1297.929,"body":"I've been on the leadership side"},{"startTime":1293.869,"endTime":1297.929,"body":"where leadership is going to the"},{"startTime":1297.929,"endTime":1300.089,"body":"team saying, what are you using now?"},{"startTime":1300.329,"endTime":1303.259,"body":"And then I'm sitting on the leadership"},{"startTime":1300.329,"endTime":1303.259,"body":"side saying I don't know how"},{"startTime":1303.259,"endTime":1304.909,"body":"these people forecast their work."},{"startTime":1305.119,"endTime":1306.049,"body":"I don't know what they do."},{"startTime":1306.169,"endTime":1307.489,"body":"Like they should use something."},{"startTime":1307.849,"endTime":1312.369,"body":"And if they're gonna use something,"},{"startTime":1307.849,"endTime":1312.369,"body":"why not start with Scrum?"},{"startTime":1312.369,"endTime":1314.799,"body":"I mean, you can change it"},{"startTime":1312.369,"endTime":1314.799,"body":"later, , why not start with that?"},{"startTime":1315.199,"endTime":1318.049,"body":"I think they were professing to use Kanban"},{"startTime":1315.199,"endTime":1318.049,"body":"actually, and we'll get to this in a"},{"startTime":1318.054,"endTime":1322.734,"body":"second with our Kanban discussion, but"},{"startTime":1318.054,"endTime":1322.734,"body":"likes Scrum again, only my experience."},{"startTime":1323.244,"endTime":1324.384,"body":"Maybe your experience is different."},{"startTime":1324.564,"endTime":1327.624,"body":"Scrum is usually like the"},{"startTime":1324.564,"endTime":1327.624,"body":"defacto, let's start trying to"},{"startTime":1327.624,"endTime":1329.604,"body":"do something kind of framework."},{"startTime":1329.874,"endTime":1333.614,"body":"I think it also depends on the"},{"startTime":1329.874,"endTime":1333.614,"body":"nature of your organization, right?"},{"startTime":1333.619,"endTime":1337.274,"body":"If you're a software shop"},{"startTime":1333.619,"endTime":1337.274,"body":"or lineage as well, right?"},{"startTime":1337.274,"endTime":1340.304,"body":"I mean, if it's a reasonably new"},{"startTime":1337.274,"endTime":1340.304,"body":"company, a startup, et cetera,"},{"startTime":1340.309,"endTime":1341.564,"body":"you're more likely to use Scrum."},{"startTime":1341.564,"endTime":1341.894,"body":"Well, no."},{"startTime":1341.894,"endTime":1345.799,"body":"I mean my, my, every time I've"},{"startTime":1341.894,"endTime":1345.799,"body":"ever seen Scrum, I actually have"},{"startTime":1345.799,"endTime":1348.259,"body":"seen Scrum rolled out onto teams."},{"startTime":1348.709,"endTime":1351.829,"body":"Like the question asks, and every"},{"startTime":1348.709,"endTime":1351.829,"body":"time I've seen Scrum rolled out, it's"},{"startTime":1351.829,"endTime":1355.519,"body":"because the management or leadership,"},{"startTime":1351.829,"endTime":1355.519,"body":"depending on the company, right?"},{"startTime":1355.799,"endTime":1359.789,"body":"It is just says like, listen"},{"startTime":1355.799,"endTime":1359.789,"body":"we need introspection points."},{"startTime":1359.789,"endTime":1363.659,"body":"We need, we need inspection and"},{"startTime":1359.789,"endTime":1363.659,"body":"introspection points you to introspect"},{"startTime":1363.659,"endTime":1366.119,"body":"your own work, us to inspect your work."},{"startTime":1366.209,"endTime":1367.619,"body":"We, and we need more transparency."},{"startTime":1367.619,"endTime":1368.609,"body":"We have to use Scrum."},{"startTime":1369.179,"endTime":1370.049,"body":"Go do it."},{"startTime":1370.499,"endTime":1372.959,"body":"And, and you know, whatever you"},{"startTime":1370.499,"endTime":1372.959,"body":"set your cycle to like, let me"},{"startTime":1372.959,"endTime":1374.999,"body":"know because I want to be there."},{"startTime":1375.609,"endTime":1375.729,"body":"I."},{"startTime":1375.729,"endTime":1378.074,"body":"You know, whatever, every two weeks,"},{"startTime":1375.729,"endTime":1378.074,"body":"every week, every three weeks,"},{"startTime":1378.074,"endTime":1379.454,"body":"whatever, you set your period of time."},{"startTime":1379.634,"endTime":1382.034,"body":"Like, I wanna be there for your"},{"startTime":1379.634,"endTime":1382.034,"body":"demos to see what you've worked on."},{"startTime":1382.034,"endTime":1387.674,"body":"You have you, you can't go off in a corner"},{"startTime":1382.034,"endTime":1387.674,"body":"and disappear for three months, and then"},{"startTime":1387.674,"endTime":1390.764,"body":"I pay your salary for three months, and"},{"startTime":1387.674,"endTime":1390.764,"body":"then I don't get anything after that."},{"startTime":1390.764,"endTime":1392.234,"body":"It's not a tenable business solution."},{"startTime":1392.414,"endTime":1396.194,"body":"So you're using Scrum I've,"},{"startTime":1392.414,"endTime":1396.194,"body":"I, I have seen that before."},{"startTime":1396.524,"endTime":1402.224,"body":"So that, in that scenario, scrum is"},{"startTime":1396.524,"endTime":1402.224,"body":"quote unquote mandated for the right"},{"startTime":1402.229,"endTime":1407.279,"body":"reasons, I feel but I've also seen"},{"startTime":1402.229,"endTime":1407.279,"body":"other reasons for example, the, the"},{"startTime":1407.284,"endTime":1411.119,"body":"CIO goes to a conference and hears"},{"startTime":1407.284,"endTime":1411.119,"body":"that that's what everybody's doing."},{"startTime":1411.449,"endTime":1414.749,"body":"So they come back and say,"},{"startTime":1411.449,"endTime":1414.749,"body":"stop hands off keyboard."},{"startTime":1414.754,"endTime":1416.099,"body":"We're all gonna do Scrum now."},{"startTime":1416.104,"endTime":1416.389,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1416.389,"endTime":1416.669,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1416.699,"endTime":1417.029,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1417.059,"endTime":1418.139,"body":"Starting right now."},{"startTime":1418.199,"endTime":1418.409,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1418.649,"endTime":1420.869,"body":"I've seen that as well, and Oh, really?"},{"startTime":1420.874,"endTime":1420.989,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":1421.109,"endTime":1421.379,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1421.429,"endTime":1425.879,"body":"They don't regard whether their"},{"startTime":1421.429,"endTime":1425.879,"body":"organization is, is geared up to,"},{"startTime":1426.089,"endTime":1427.709,"body":"to use Scrum in an effective way."},{"startTime":1427.709,"endTime":1427.799,"body":"Nice."},{"startTime":1427.799,"endTime":1431.299,"body":"They simply say, Hey, my peers are"},{"startTime":1427.799,"endTime":1431.299,"body":"talking about this thing called Scrum."},{"startTime":1431.659,"endTime":1433.669,"body":"We like it cuz everyone's doing it."},{"startTime":1433.669,"endTime":1434.329,"body":"We need to do it."},{"startTime":1434.339,"endTime":1435.349,"body":"Tell, tell me about that."},{"startTime":1435.349,"endTime":1436.939,"body":"Like, tell like where was that at?"},{"startTime":1436.999,"endTime":1437.359,"body":"Like, oh yeah."},{"startTime":1437.359,"endTime":1437.539,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1437.544,"endTime":1441.019,"body":"This was at a publishing company that"},{"startTime":1437.544,"endTime":1441.019,"body":"they're not really the, the stalwarts"},{"startTime":1441.019,"endTime":1444.539,"body":"of software development anyway"},{"startTime":1441.019,"endTime":1444.539,"body":"but that's exactly what happened."},{"startTime":1444.539,"endTime":1448.109,"body":"The CIO went to a conference in Europe."},{"startTime":1448.139,"endTime":1448.229,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1448.529,"endTime":1450.569,"body":"And my client was in in, in Asia."},{"startTime":1451.589,"endTime":1455.399,"body":"CIO comes back, holds a meeting"},{"startTime":1451.589,"endTime":1455.399,"body":"very next morning when he came back"},{"startTime":1455.399,"endTime":1458.549,"body":"and he said, everybody stop the way"},{"startTime":1455.399,"endTime":1458.549,"body":"you're working that that's not right."},{"startTime":1458.609,"endTime":1463.499,"body":"Oh boy, we need to be working in a"},{"startTime":1458.609,"endTime":1463.499,"body":"scrum way as he put it scrum way."},{"startTime":1463.919,"endTime":1468.639,"body":"And you see some blank faces, you see"},{"startTime":1463.919,"endTime":1468.639,"body":"some faces with glint in their eyes cuz"},{"startTime":1468.639,"endTime":1472.239,"body":"they've worked in that way before and"},{"startTime":1468.639,"endTime":1472.239,"body":"they were frustrated in the existing ways."},{"startTime":1472.244,"endTime":1472.329,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1472.719,"endTime":1477.799,"body":"So going in into that kind of"},{"startTime":1472.719,"endTime":1477.799,"body":"a meeting, You come out and go,"},{"startTime":1477.799,"endTime":1478.969,"body":"okay, what just happened there?"},{"startTime":1478.969,"endTime":1479.389,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1479.839,"endTime":1483.589,"body":"This is good and bad combined,"},{"startTime":1479.839,"endTime":1483.589,"body":"probably in different measures."},{"startTime":1483.649,"endTime":1483.769,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1484.009,"endTime":1486.879,"body":"And, and  as a coach, you need"},{"startTime":1484.009,"endTime":1486.879,"body":"to unravel all that mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1486.964,"endTime":1490.479,"body":"And figure out how you ready the"},{"startTime":1486.964,"endTime":1490.479,"body":"organization to implement scrum."},{"startTime":1491.019,"endTime":1491.349,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1491.349,"endTime":1493.959,"body":"It just doesn't happen"},{"startTime":1491.349,"endTime":1493.959,"body":"at the click of a finger."},{"startTime":1494.079,"endTime":1499.539,"body":"Yes so I've seen that initially"},{"startTime":1494.079,"endTime":1499.539,"body":"it was a rocky road for about"},{"startTime":1499.539,"endTime":1501.099,"body":"four months or so, roughly."},{"startTime":1501.579,"endTime":1505.399,"body":"It was Rocky cuz you had to prepare"},{"startTime":1501.579,"endTime":1505.399,"body":"the teams, the organization all"},{"startTime":1505.399,"endTime":1506.749,"body":"the other functions within Right."},{"startTime":1506.929,"endTime":1508.204,"body":"Within the organization."},{"startTime":1508.804,"endTime":1512.524,"body":"But after that, they would"},{"startTime":1508.804,"endTime":1512.524,"body":"never go back to the old ways."},{"startTime":1512.524,"endTime":1512.614,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1512.644,"endTime":1517.714,"body":"So that was great the second year, so"},{"startTime":1512.644,"endTime":1517.714,"body":"not the year he went to the conference,"},{"startTime":1517.714,"endTime":1521.524,"body":"but the skipper year, second year,"},{"startTime":1517.714,"endTime":1521.524,"body":"when he went back, he actually"},{"startTime":1521.524,"endTime":1528.439,"body":"showcased his development area as"},{"startTime":1521.524,"endTime":1528.439,"body":"having implemented s scrum effectively."},{"startTime":1529.279,"endTime":1530.869,"body":"So that that was a whole."},{"startTime":1531.709,"endTime":1532.549,"body":"You know, rainbow, right?"},{"startTime":1532.699,"endTime":1535.249,"body":"You, you went from not"},{"startTime":1532.699,"endTime":1535.249,"body":"doing anything agile mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1535.579,"endTime":1539.389,"body":"To working in an agile way"},{"startTime":1535.579,"endTime":1539.389,"body":"quite effectively in two years."},{"startTime":1539.394,"endTime":1539.489,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1539.775,"endTime":1541.744,"body":"That's interesting because my first."},{"startTime":1542.074,"endTime":1543.934,"body":"Experience with Scrum?"},{"startTime":1544.394,"endTime":1547.809,"body":"Was, I think an SPC like"},{"startTime":1544.394,"endTime":1547.809,"body":"sold my leadership team on"},{"startTime":1548.019,"endTime":1549.309,"body":"the Safe Agilist training."},{"startTime":1549.309,"endTime":1552.599,"body":"And then they try, I've told this"},{"startTime":1549.309,"endTime":1552.599,"body":"story on the podcast before and and"},{"startTime":1552.614,"endTime":1555.464,"body":"I remember the leadership team was"},{"startTime":1552.614,"endTime":1555.464,"body":"offsite going through this training."},{"startTime":1555.464,"endTime":1557.654,"body":"When they all came back, they"},{"startTime":1555.464,"endTime":1557.654,"body":"all had the little placard,"},{"startTime":1557.924,"endTime":1559.454,"body":"the, the laminated placard."},{"startTime":1559.544,"endTime":1561.344,"body":"And they love walking people."},{"startTime":1561.394,"endTime":1564.184,"body":"Cuz they would go back to the, the"},{"startTime":1561.394,"endTime":1564.184,"body":"placard and be like, no, it says you"},{"startTime":1564.189,"endTime":1568.324,"body":"have to do all the PI planning during"},{"startTime":1564.189,"endTime":1568.324,"body":"PI planning and you don't get to go back"},{"startTime":1568.324,"endTime":1569.764,"body":"to requirements and blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":1570.184,"endTime":1572.444,"body":"And um, they just dogma,"},{"startTime":1570.184,"endTime":1572.444,"body":"absolutely augment."},{"startTime":1572.444,"endTime":1574.034,"body":"They, they, they only"},{"startTime":1572.444,"endTime":1574.034,"body":"trained the leadership."},{"startTime":1574.604,"endTime":1575.774,"body":"They didn't train anybody."},{"startTime":1576.224,"endTime":1578.324,"body":"Person who actually is"},{"startTime":1576.224,"endTime":1578.324,"body":"on any development team."},{"startTime":1578.324,"endTime":1580.634,"body":"That's a great way to"},{"startTime":1578.324,"endTime":1580.634,"body":"indoctrinate religion."},{"startTime":1580.694,"endTime":1584.264,"body":"And then the, and then the leadership"},{"startTime":1580.694,"endTime":1584.264,"body":"team came back and said here is the"},{"startTime":1584.269,"endTime":1587.344,"body":"pi here, here are the PI objectives"},{"startTime":1584.269,"endTime":1587.344,"body":"that we want you to achieve."},{"startTime":1587.929,"endTime":1591.019,"body":"Um, here is what you're gonna"},{"startTime":1587.929,"endTime":1591.019,"body":"do in pi, in, in, in sprint."},{"startTime":1591.019,"endTime":1592.909,"body":"1, 2, 3, 4, 5 at the pi."},{"startTime":1592.969,"endTime":1595.279,"body":"And they gave us the work"},{"startTime":1592.969,"endTime":1595.279,"body":"items that we were gonna do."},{"startTime":1595.639,"endTime":1599.349,"body":"And and you know obviously it was, it was"},{"startTime":1595.639,"endTime":1599.349,"body":"an absolute nightmare and train wreck."},{"startTime":1599.349,"endTime":1604.239,"body":"Like after the very first sprint, almost"},{"startTime":1599.349,"endTime":1604.239,"body":"nothing got done and it all pushed"},{"startTime":1604.359,"endTime":1608.614,"body":"to the second sprint and then that,"},{"startTime":1604.359,"endTime":1608.614,"body":"that, that created a quote, waterfall"},{"startTime":1608.644,"endTime":1610.804,"body":"effect of everything just moving."},{"startTime":1610.904,"endTime":1614.774,"body":"I think that what you've just described"},{"startTime":1610.904,"endTime":1614.774,"body":"right there, I think it's pretty"},{"startTime":1614.774,"endTime":1619.644,"body":"typical for any organization, especially"},{"startTime":1614.774,"endTime":1619.644,"body":"adopting safe for the first time."},{"startTime":1619.649,"endTime":1619.704,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1619.764,"endTime":1619.854,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1620.124,"endTime":1623.804,"body":"But even even, even Scrum really you"},{"startTime":1620.124,"endTime":1623.804,"body":"wanna hear cause they don't train people."},{"startTime":1623.804,"endTime":1625.329,"body":"You wanna hear the best"},{"startTime":1623.804,"endTime":1625.329,"body":"part of that story?"},{"startTime":1625.839,"endTime":1626.019,"body":"Go ahead."},{"startTime":1626.169,"endTime":1631.084,"body":"It was, it, the team was like 12 people,"},{"startTime":1626.169,"endTime":1631.084,"body":"which included two mobile developers"},{"startTime":1631.084,"endTime":1632.584,"body":"and a tester dedicated to mobile."},{"startTime":1632.899,"endTime":1636.069,"body":"So it there was absolutely no"},{"startTime":1632.899,"endTime":1636.069,"body":"reason to be using safe for like 12"},{"startTime":1636.069,"endTime":1638.379,"body":"people or, or 14 people, whatever."},{"startTime":1638.384,"endTime":1639.579,"body":"What are you, what are you scaling it?"},{"startTime":1639.579,"endTime":1642.729,"body":"There was, yeah, there was absolutely"},{"startTime":1639.579,"endTime":1642.729,"body":"no reason at, in any way, shape or form."},{"startTime":1642.759,"endTime":1645.969,"body":"And, and the company didn't change"},{"startTime":1642.759,"endTime":1645.969,"body":"their budgeting or their finances or"},{"startTime":1645.969,"endTime":1648.947,"body":"anything like there was that was my"},{"startTime":1645.969,"endTime":1648.947,"body":"story about has there been a time when"},{"startTime":1648.947,"endTime":1651.347,"body":"something was, was implemented on you?"},{"startTime":1651.497,"endTime":1652.067,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1652.067,"endTime":1654.527,"body":"O over you, onto you on"},{"startTime":1652.067,"endTime":1654.527,"body":"top of you, around you."},{"startTime":1654.647,"endTime":1659.537,"body":"So that is classic waterfall"},{"startTime":1654.647,"endTime":1659.537,"body":"in five sprints Yeah."},{"startTime":1659.687,"endTime":1661.397,"body":"Was, or four sprints, whatever it was."},{"startTime":1661.402,"endTime":1661.697,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1662.087,"endTime":1662.747,"body":"That's what it is."},{"startTime":1662.747,"endTime":1665.707,"body":"Because I, again, that's something"},{"startTime":1662.747,"endTime":1665.707,"body":"that, that we see all the time, right?"},{"startTime":1665.737,"endTime":1668.047,"body":"People say we're, we're,"},{"startTime":1665.737,"endTime":1668.047,"body":"we're working in a SAFe way."},{"startTime":1668.137,"endTime":1668.317,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1668.407,"endTime":1669.607,"body":"Well, are you right?"},{"startTime":1669.607,"endTime":1672.877,"body":"And you look at that and you look"},{"startTime":1669.607,"endTime":1672.877,"body":"for those smiles I mentioned earlier."},{"startTime":1672.877,"endTime":1672.967,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1673.027,"endTime":1675.667,"body":"And one of the smiles is"},{"startTime":1673.027,"endTime":1675.667,"body":"only leadership got trained."},{"startTime":1675.697,"endTime":1675.907,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1675.937,"endTime":1676.417,"body":"Yay."},{"startTime":1676.567,"endTime":1676.687,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1676.717,"endTime":1676.957,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1676.957,"endTime":1677.857,"body":"People doing the work."},{"startTime":1678.802,"endTime":1680.842,"body":"so I actually, I told two, two stories."},{"startTime":1680.842,"endTime":1684.452,"body":"One, one where I was representing"},{"startTime":1680.842,"endTime":1684.452,"body":"leadership forcing Scrum on the team."},{"startTime":1684.452,"endTime":1684.732,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1684.752,"endTime":1685.492,"body":"And the other one."},{"startTime":1685.492,"endTime":1688.402,"body":"But, but you were, but you had"},{"startTime":1685.492,"endTime":1688.402,"body":"rationale for what you wanted."},{"startTime":1688.672,"endTime":1689.602,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1689.662,"endTime":1693.082,"body":"Which is visibility, predictability,"},{"startTime":1689.662,"endTime":1693.082,"body":"all the things that we know"},{"startTime":1693.442,"endTime":1694.762,"body":"are possible through Agile."},{"startTime":1694.772,"endTime":1695.132,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1695.212,"endTime":1695.332,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1695.392,"endTime":1695.812,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1696.082,"endTime":1699.652,"body":"So I think you were right to, to"},{"startTime":1696.082,"endTime":1699.652,"body":"kinda look for answers to that."},{"startTime":1699.742,"endTime":1702.712,"body":"It's now the question is"},{"startTime":1699.742,"endTime":1702.712,"body":"how did you go about it?"},{"startTime":1702.862,"endTime":1704.892,"body":"Right cuz the devil's in the details."},{"startTime":1704.922,"endTime":1705.192,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1705.732,"endTime":1710.742,"body":"Whereas leadership, just in my example,"},{"startTime":1705.732,"endTime":1710.742,"body":"for, for instance right, the CIO going to"},{"startTime":1710.747,"endTime":1715.602,"body":"a conference and his peers saying, we're"},{"startTime":1710.747,"endTime":1715.602,"body":"all doing Agile, we're we're doing Scrum."},{"startTime":1715.672,"endTime":1719.482,"body":"And he would come back and the very"},{"startTime":1715.672,"endTime":1719.482,"body":"next day, the town hall meeting, this"},{"startTime":1719.482,"endTime":1722.602,"body":"is in person, so everyone's in the"},{"startTime":1719.482,"endTime":1722.602,"body":"room, this big old conference room, and"},{"startTime":1722.602,"endTime":1724.792,"body":"he said, stop, whatever you're doing."},{"startTime":1724.852,"endTime":1725.032,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1725.102,"endTime":1727.462,"body":"We're gonna work in"},{"startTime":1725.102,"endTime":1727.462,"body":"Scrum starting tomorrow."},{"startTime":1727.612,"endTime":1727.942,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1728.287,"endTime":1728.707,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1728.977,"endTime":1735.397,"body":"I mean, that is radical and people just"},{"startTime":1728.977,"endTime":1735.397,"body":"left that, that meeting all worried"},{"startTime":1735.397,"endTime":1736.507,"body":"like, what, what does this mean?"},{"startTime":1736.507,"endTime":1736.657,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1736.687,"endTime":1737.467,"body":"Do I have a job?"},{"startTime":1737.947,"endTime":1740.567,"body":"I mean, the the, the disruptive,"},{"startTime":1737.947,"endTime":1740.567,"body":"the details, like the disruptive"},{"startTime":1740.567,"endTime":1744.247,"body":"side of that is I've been in quite"},{"startTime":1740.567,"endTime":1744.247,"body":"a few companies where they've had"},{"startTime":1744.438,"endTime":1751.41,"body":"questionable scrum practices, scrum,"},{"startTime":1744.438,"endTime":1751.41,"body":"fall, questionable, questionable."},{"startTime":1751.73,"endTime":1754.62,"body":"And, and they brought me in"},{"startTime":1751.73,"endTime":1754.62,"body":"as a product manager, right?"},{"startTime":1754.86,"endTime":1757.32,"body":"Like, I'm, I'm playing, I'm playing the"},{"startTime":1754.86,"endTime":1757.32,"body":"role, playing the role, playing the role,"},{"startTime":1759.21,"endTime":1763.92,"body":"playing the role o of the product owner"},{"startTime":1759.21,"endTime":1763.92,"body":"on their team as the product manager."},{"startTime":1764.01,"endTime":1768.18,"body":"You know, you sometimes the first"},{"startTime":1764.01,"endTime":1768.18,"body":"product manager and the first, like"},{"startTime":1768.42,"endTime":1772.11,"body":"real stress I have to encounter at the"},{"startTime":1768.42,"endTime":1772.11,"body":"company is they don't have a backlog."},{"startTime":1772.32,"endTime":1775.11,"body":"So all these developers are looking to"},{"startTime":1772.32,"endTime":1775.11,"body":"me to be like, what do we work on next?"},{"startTime":1775.32,"endTime":1778.17,"body":"What, what, what's the I'm, oh, well"},{"startTime":1775.32,"endTime":1778.17,"body":"wait, I'm supposed to only work on"},{"startTime":1778.17,"endTime":1781.02,"body":"the highest priority, not whatever"},{"startTime":1778.17,"endTime":1781.02,"body":"I think is important, or whatever."},{"startTime":1781.2,"endTime":1781.86,"body":"Okay, Mr."},{"startTime":1781.86,"endTime":1782.52,"body":"Product Manager."},{"startTime":1782.85,"endTime":1783.9,"body":"Tell me what to work on."},{"startTime":1784.23,"endTime":1787.38,"body":"If you, if you're the one telling"},{"startTime":1784.23,"endTime":1787.38,"body":"me that I only work on the highest"},{"startTime":1787.38,"endTime":1790.8,"body":"priority and then the stress is on"},{"startTime":1787.38,"endTime":1790.8,"body":"about now I have to fill out a backlog."},{"startTime":1790.805,"endTime":1790.86,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1790.89,"endTime":1791.19,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1791.19,"endTime":1792.24,"body":"You have to have that runway."},{"startTime":1792.245,"endTime":1792.9,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1792.96,"endTime":1793.321,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1793.77,"endTime":1799.26,"body":"So that, so that's like, that's the"},{"startTime":1793.77,"endTime":1799.26,"body":"when this gets, if I'm gonna take a"},{"startTime":1799.26,"endTime":1803.42,"body":"product approach to looking at this"},{"startTime":1799.26,"endTime":1803.42,"body":"question, although that's arguably the"},{"startTime":1803.42,"endTime":1806.55,"body":"way the question was asked if I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1803.42,"endTime":1806.55,"body":"take a product approach of looking"},{"startTime":1806.55,"endTime":1809.15,"body":"at this question, I'm gonna look at"},{"startTime":1806.55,"endTime":1809.15,"body":"it from the perspective of product"},{"startTime":1809.15,"endTime":1813.091,"body":"management is, well now I have to make"},{"startTime":1809.15,"endTime":1813.091,"body":"sure I have x number of sprints worth"},{"startTime":1813.091,"endTime":1815.281,"body":"of work specked out in the future."},{"startTime":1815.281,"endTime":1816.271,"body":"You know, that we're ahead."},{"startTime":1816.271,"endTime":1820.021,"body":"So we have a forecast and all the stuff"},{"startTime":1816.271,"endTime":1820.021,"body":"that product needs because I, cuz I"},{"startTime":1820.081,"endTime":1823.291,"body":"like when I roll out Scrum with, with"},{"startTime":1820.081,"endTime":1823.291,"body":"the team that I was talking about."},{"startTime":1823.861,"endTime":1825.541,"body":"It was because they had no forecast."},{"startTime":1825.541,"endTime":1828.901,"body":"There was no way to tell what, when"},{"startTime":1825.541,"endTime":1828.901,"body":"the team was gonna be done with stuff"},{"startTime":1828.901,"endTime":1832.691,"body":"and when they, when they were gonna"},{"startTime":1828.901,"endTime":1832.691,"body":"start on something, even in a window."},{"startTime":1833.001,"endTime":1837.261,"body":"Like, just like, Hey, are you gonna get"},{"startTime":1833.001,"endTime":1837.261,"body":"to my thing in the next three months?"},{"startTime":1837.501,"endTime":1838.101,"body":"Three, three weeks?"},{"startTime":1838.101,"endTime":1839.071,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1839.076,"endTime":1839.351,"body":"Four weeks."},{"startTime":1839.451,"endTime":1843.171,"body":"But, but in your case, at least,"},{"startTime":1839.451,"endTime":1843.171,"body":"you had, your organization had"},{"startTime":1843.221,"endTime":1844.521,"body":"somebody in product mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1844.601,"endTime":1845.081,"body":"To deal with that."},{"startTime":1845.081,"endTime":1845.401,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1845.861,"endTime":1849.401,"body":"I'm talking about companies that come"},{"startTime":1845.861,"endTime":1849.401,"body":"in and say, we're gonna work in a scrum"},{"startTime":1849.401,"endTime":1851.861,"body":"way, and we don't have a product owner,"},{"startTime":1849.401,"endTime":1851.861,"body":"we don't have any product person."},{"startTime":1852.251,"endTime":1852.581,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1853.001,"endTime":1858.248,"body":"The highest paid person in the room"},{"startTime":1853.001,"endTime":1858.248,"body":"dictates what the team's gonna work on."},{"startTime":1858.878,"endTime":1858.91,"body":"Oh, that's true."},{"startTime":1858.915,"endTime":1858.948,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1858.948,"endTime":1860.468,"body":"That, that's the hippo effect."},{"startTime":1860.468,"endTime":1860.588,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1860.588,"endTime":1864.048,"body":"That's, that's true so I mean, what"},{"startTime":1860.588,"endTime":1864.048,"body":"are your chances of success there?"},{"startTime":1864.678,"endTime":1865.848,"body":"Forget about the customer."},{"startTime":1866.748,"endTime":1867.228,"body":"The customers."},{"startTime":1867.233,"endTime":1868.248,"body":"Nowhere in this picture."},{"startTime":1868.848,"endTime":1869.208,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1869.538,"endTime":1870.408,"body":"That's the problem."},{"startTime":1870.648,"endTime":1874.458,"body":"I'm gonna take a slightly different"},{"startTime":1870.648,"endTime":1874.458,"body":"approach now as we go from this blend of"},{"startTime":1874.488,"endTime":1876.968,"body":"like waterfall to, to scrum or mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1877.053,"endTime":1878.298,"body":"Whatever, whatever else, right?"},{"startTime":1878.303,"endTime":1878.528,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1879.438,"endTime":1883.878,"body":"So my experience is companies"},{"startTime":1879.438,"endTime":1883.878,"body":"that have been historically"},{"startTime":1883.878,"endTime":1885.018,"body":"working on waterfall away mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1885.438,"endTime":1887.178,"body":"Looking to become more agile."},{"startTime":1888.348,"endTime":1891.798,"body":"They don't go and do a state"},{"startTime":1888.348,"endTime":1891.798,"body":"transition like that, right?"},{"startTime":1891.828,"endTime":1895.038,"body":"It's a gradual move and it"},{"startTime":1891.828,"endTime":1895.038,"body":"goes through various things."},{"startTime":1895.038,"endTime":1897.518,"body":"They do waterfall still a few months out."},{"startTime":1897.608,"endTime":1897.728,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1897.728,"endTime":1900.968,"body":"They do some of the things they"},{"startTime":1897.728,"endTime":1900.968,"body":"do day in, day out incorporate"},{"startTime":1901.238,"endTime":1903.008,"body":"elements of Scrum, right?"},{"startTime":1903.068,"endTime":1905.678,"body":"So they're doing things like the"},{"startTime":1903.068,"endTime":1905.678,"body":"team gets together every now and"},{"startTime":1905.678,"endTime":1909.691,"body":"then to talk about how they can work"},{"startTime":1905.678,"endTime":1909.691,"body":"better, aka the retrospective, right?"},{"startTime":1909.751,"endTime":1914.581,"body":"They have customers looking at stuff"},{"startTime":1909.751,"endTime":1914.581,"body":"every month or so, let's say, right?"},{"startTime":1914.641,"endTime":1919.981,"body":"Which is the, the AKA sprint review or"},{"startTime":1914.641,"endTime":1919.981,"body":"whatever you wanna call it, demo, right?"},{"startTime":1920.521,"endTime":1924.991,"body":"So it's, it's a gradual tale that"},{"startTime":1920.521,"endTime":1924.991,"body":"kind of tapers off and then another"},{"startTime":1924.991,"endTime":1927.241,"body":"rises as they get into Scrum, right?"},{"startTime":1927.916,"endTime":1929.536,"body":"And again, there's"},{"startTime":1927.916,"endTime":1929.536,"body":"nothing wrong with that."},{"startTime":1929.546,"endTime":1932.546,"body":"as an agile coach is that super"},{"startTime":1929.546,"endTime":1932.546,"body":"frustrating or is that just part of the"},{"startTime":1932.546,"endTime":1936.626,"body":"process of like, Hey, we're waterfall,"},{"startTime":1932.546,"endTime":1936.626,"body":"what we do daily standups, and you"},{"startTime":1936.631,"endTime":1939.726,"body":"know like that would, that would, as"},{"startTime":1936.631,"endTime":1939.726,"body":"a product manager, it would really"},{"startTime":1939.726,"endTime":1943.026,"body":"frustrate me to say it frustrated the"},{"startTime":1939.726,"endTime":1943.026,"body":"heck out of me too in my early days."},{"startTime":1943.026,"endTime":1943.266,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1943.271,"endTime":1946.776,"body":"It was really stressful it felt,"},{"startTime":1943.271,"endTime":1946.776,"body":"I felt like Sisyphus pushing"},{"startTime":1946.776,"endTime":1948.486,"body":"that rock up a hill, right."},{"startTime":1948.786,"endTime":1952.446,"body":"With people pushing it back down on me"},{"startTime":1948.786,"endTime":1952.446,"body":"not, not Kate Bush running up that hill."},{"startTime":1952.506,"endTime":1952.886,"body":"No, no."},{"startTime":1952.891,"endTime":1953.926,"body":"Not running up the hill."},{"startTime":1953.986,"endTime":1954.196,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1954.376,"endTime":1961.066,"body":"No, the thing that I, I have accepted now"},{"startTime":1954.376,"endTime":1961.066,"body":"is there's a certain inertia built in."},{"startTime":1961.071,"endTime":1961.366,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1961.451,"endTime":1961.666,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1962.056,"endTime":1965.626,"body":"And you can look to minimize it,"},{"startTime":1962.056,"endTime":1965.626,"body":"but you can never eliminate that."},{"startTime":1965.986,"endTime":1970.306,"body":"So what you need to now look at is what"},{"startTime":1965.986,"endTime":1970.306,"body":"I do day in there is look at where I"},{"startTime":1970.306,"endTime":1972.016,"body":"can make the biggest difference today."},{"startTime":1972.376,"endTime":1972.736,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1972.766,"endTime":1976.666,"body":"And then come back and a couple"},{"startTime":1972.766,"endTime":1976.666,"body":"of weeks, which is one sprint."},{"startTime":1976.671,"endTime":1976.806,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1976.886,"endTime":1977.286,"body":"And see."},{"startTime":1978.241,"endTime":1979.471,"body":"Do I need to continue that?"},{"startTime":1979.471,"endTime":1981.001,"body":"Do I need to pick up something else?"},{"startTime":1981.031,"endTime":1981.241,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1981.421,"endTime":1982.201,"body":"Or do both."},{"startTime":1982.261,"endTime":1982.441,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1982.471,"endTime":1982.711,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1982.711,"endTime":1984.871,"body":"And just rinse and repeat like that."},{"startTime":1984.931,"endTime":1986.251,"body":"That's the iterative approach."},{"startTime":1986.551,"endTime":1986.611,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1986.671,"endTime":1988.561,"body":"So I still get frustrated"},{"startTime":1986.671,"endTime":1988.561,"body":"to your question."},{"startTime":1988.651,"endTime":1993.391,"body":"But now I'm trying to channel"},{"startTime":1988.651,"endTime":1993.391,"body":"what I do mm-hmm in hopefully"},{"startTime":1993.391,"endTime":1994.651,"body":"in more effective ways."},{"startTime":1994.771,"endTime":1994.921,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1994.926,"endTime":1996.571,"body":"Instead of just letting it frustrate me."},{"startTime":1996.781,"endTime":1996.991,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":1996.991,"endTime":1998.341,"body":"Well these people just don't get it."},{"startTime":1998.371,"endTime":1999.121,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":1999.121,"endTime":1999.961,"body":"I know they don't get it."},{"startTime":2000.021,"endTime":2000.201,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2000.231,"endTime":2001.041,"body":"That's why I'm here."},{"startTime":2001.131,"endTime":2002.031,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":2002.031,"endTime":2005.631,"body":"So yeah, it took, it took a"},{"startTime":2002.031,"endTime":2005.631,"body":"while to get to that stage."},{"startTime":2006.531,"endTime":2008.301,"body":"I mean, that, that's a"},{"startTime":2006.531,"endTime":2008.301,"body":"great piece of feedback."},{"startTime":2008.306,"endTime":2008.931,"body":"I, I like the,"},{"startTime":2008.931,"endTime":2014.291,"body":"the other piece of quote, implementing"},{"startTime":2008.931,"endTime":2014.291,"body":"Scrum is that  the company has"},{"startTime":2014.291,"endTime":2016.811,"body":"a bunch of questions, and the"},{"startTime":2014.291,"endTime":2016.811,"body":"scaling frameworks are the only"},{"startTime":2016.816,"endTime":2018.251,"body":"thing that answers those questions."},{"startTime":2018.791,"endTime":2021.676,"body":"You know, the company has questions"},{"startTime":2018.791,"endTime":2021.676,"body":"about well, how do I apply budgeting?"},{"startTime":2021.676,"endTime":2025.376,"body":"Or how do I apply like I have a bunch of"},{"startTime":2021.676,"endTime":2025.376,"body":"teams that are working together, or I, I"},{"startTime":2025.376,"endTime":2030.206,"body":"have one BA backlog, but multiple teams,"},{"startTime":2025.376,"endTime":2030.206,"body":"or I, maybe I don't maybe I'm scared to go"},{"startTime":2030.206,"endTime":2033.656,"body":"hire 10 product managers for my 10 teams."},{"startTime":2033.656,"endTime":2036.236,"body":"And there's scaling frameworks for that."},{"startTime":2036.296,"endTime":2040.646,"body":"And you know, that like, yeah, like that,"},{"startTime":2036.296,"endTime":2040.646,"body":"that's, that's the scary part about,"},{"startTime":2040.886,"endTime":2042.956,"body":"about talking about implementing Scrum is."},{"startTime":2043.266,"endTime":2046.416,"body":"There's so many different people"},{"startTime":2043.266,"endTime":2046.416,"body":"who've customized Scrum and tried to"},{"startTime":2046.516,"endTime":2049.276,"body":"it's, where do I even start, you know?"},{"startTime":2049.366,"endTime":2049.576,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2049.576,"endTime":2053.166,"body":"It's, it's, it's a question of who"},{"startTime":2049.576,"endTime":2053.166,"body":"do you go and who's peddling what."},{"startTime":2053.166,"endTime":2053.436,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2053.436,"endTime":2054.996,"body":"Who do you buy your stuff from?"},{"startTime":2055.446,"endTime":2056.886,"body":"Right, exactly."},{"startTime":2057.096,"endTime":2058.506,"body":"Everyone's got something to offer."},{"startTime":2058.866,"endTime":2059.196,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2059.196,"endTime":2062.376,"body":"But what's, what's gonna"},{"startTime":2059.196,"endTime":2062.376,"body":"fit your needs best here?"},{"startTime":2062.381,"endTime":2068.076,"body":"And now that, that's often the trick"},{"startTime":2062.381,"endTime":2068.076,"body":"and lot of times people fall foul of the"},{"startTime":2068.076,"endTime":2072.186,"body":"glitz, you know that that's sold to them."},{"startTime":2072.191,"endTime":2072.616,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2072.756,"endTime":2076.476,"body":"That's how people end up scaling"},{"startTime":2072.756,"endTime":2076.476,"body":"when they only have one or two teams."},{"startTime":2076.476,"endTime":2078.216,"body":"You don't need scaling at that level."},{"startTime":2078.216,"endTime":2078.486,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2078.486,"endTime":2078.756,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2078.876,"endTime":2079.026,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2079.056,"endTime":2079.416,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2079.596,"endTime":2083.136,"body":"And, and the other thing I like to"},{"startTime":2079.596,"endTime":2083.136,"body":"say, this is something that stuck"},{"startTime":2083.136,"endTime":2086.356,"body":"with me and it's not I don't take"},{"startTime":2083.136,"endTime":2086.356,"body":"credit for the phrase, but I like"},{"startTime":2086.361,"endTime":2090.676,"body":"this phrase, if you're not doing"},{"startTime":2086.361,"endTime":2090.676,"body":"scrum well, what are you scaling up?"},{"startTime":2090.826,"endTime":2095.021,"body":"So the, the saying, the one liner that"},{"startTime":2090.826,"endTime":2095.021,"body":"I like is nail it before you scale it."},{"startTime":2095.596,"endTime":2095.926,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2095.956,"endTime":2101.956,"body":"Get scrum down, understand it, practice"},{"startTime":2095.956,"endTime":2101.956,"body":"it, improve it, get to the point where"},{"startTime":2101.956,"endTime":2107.806,"body":"your team is effectively running Scrum,"},{"startTime":2101.956,"endTime":2107.806,"body":"and then look to scale cuz bad practices"},{"startTime":2107.811,"endTime":2111.316,"body":"scaled up just look like bad practices."},{"startTime":2111.316,"endTime":2111.317,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2111.322,"endTime":2111.556,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2111.706,"endTime":2112.366,"body":"Scaled up."},{"startTime":2112.786,"endTime":2113.026,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2113.416,"endTime":2114.856,"body":"Just more garbage."},{"startTime":2115.186,"endTime":2115.876,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":2115.936,"endTime":2119.366,"body":"Unfortunately, again, I've seen a lot"},{"startTime":2115.936,"endTime":2119.366,"body":"of organizations adopt some kind of"},{"startTime":2119.366,"endTime":2123.626,"body":"scaling framework even though they're"},{"startTime":2119.366,"endTime":2123.626,"body":"not really good at running Scrum."},{"startTime":2123.866,"endTime":2126.646,"body":"Speaking of garbage I"},{"startTime":2123.866,"endTime":2126.646,"body":"wanted to talk about Kanban."},{"startTime":2126.706,"endTime":2131.746,"body":"It's not, it's not necessarily, but"},{"startTime":2126.706,"endTime":2131.746,"body":"that's, I don't understand the transition."},{"startTime":2131.776,"endTime":2132.646,"body":"I, I'm sorry."},{"startTime":2132.646,"endTime":2134.561,"body":"Like, transitioning that way wasn't cool."},{"startTime":2134.781,"endTime":2138.521,"body":"I wanted to talk about Kanban because like"},{"startTime":2134.781,"endTime":2138.521,"body":"in the, in the example I was talking about"},{"startTime":2138.526,"endTime":2143.741,"body":"before where I transitioned that team"},{"startTime":2138.526,"endTime":2143.741,"body":"to Scrum they were using Kanban, except"},{"startTime":2143.821,"endTime":2147.691,"body":"it wasn't Kanban because they weren't"},{"startTime":2143.821,"endTime":2147.691,"body":"tracking any metrics and they didn't have"},{"startTime":2147.751,"endTime":2151.966,"body":"work in progress and they didn't have"},{"startTime":2147.751,"endTime":2151.966,"body":"any method of replenishing the backlog."},{"startTime":2152.116,"endTime":2154.546,"body":"And they didn't have any, it"},{"startTime":2152.116,"endTime":2154.546,"body":"was, it was Kanban with no rules."},{"startTime":2154.546,"endTime":2155.716,"body":"So it was basically, it was chaos."},{"startTime":2155.866,"endTime":2157.066,"body":"There basically was no process."},{"startTime":2157.071,"endTime":2157.786,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":2157.876,"endTime":2158.116,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2158.236,"endTime":2161.716,"body":"And they were calling it Kanban,"},{"startTime":2158.236,"endTime":2161.716,"body":"which is sad because the system is."},{"startTime":2162.031,"endTime":2166.981,"body":"So simple and elegant in its execution"},{"startTime":2162.031,"endTime":2166.981,"body":"and effective, I might ask and effective."},{"startTime":2166.981,"endTime":2168.751,"body":"Yeah, I, yeah, I would agree with that."},{"startTime":2168.931,"endTime":2172.991,"body":"It's, it's so simple and elegant"},{"startTime":2168.931,"endTime":2172.991,"body":"that if implemented, you basically"},{"startTime":2172.991,"endTime":2175.301,"body":"need nothing further from this list."},{"startTime":2175.451,"endTime":2179.711,"body":"And, and if, if it, if it team is"},{"startTime":2175.451,"endTime":2179.711,"body":"doing it, you can scale that up in the"},{"startTime":2179.711,"endTime":2183.521,"body":"organization and up and up and up at"},{"startTime":2179.711,"endTime":2183.521,"body":"different levels to where everyone,"},{"startTime":2183.551,"endTime":2186.881,"body":"like it's just a higher level kanban"},{"startTime":2183.551,"endTime":2186.881,"body":"board that takes into account all"},{"startTime":2186.881,"endTime":2190.691,"body":"the lower level kanban boards and"},{"startTime":2186.881,"endTime":2190.691,"body":"suddenly you find yourself  not"},{"startTime":2190.691,"endTime":2197.231,"body":"needing any other of these heavyweight"},{"startTime":2190.691,"endTime":2197.231,"body":"methodologies because you just scaled"},{"startTime":2197.651,"endTime":2200.501,"body":"your, your very simple way of working."},{"startTime":2200.651,"endTime":2203.791,"body":"So what would what would those people"},{"startTime":2200.651,"endTime":2203.791,"body":"that are selling all those glitzy"},{"startTime":2203.791,"endTime":2207.331,"body":"methodologies do is, and you know,"},{"startTime":2203.791,"endTime":2207.331,"body":"that's not even talking about people"},{"startTime":2207.331,"endTime":2209.221,"body":"that are selling these tools out there."},{"startTime":2209.551,"endTime":2213.541,"body":"Yeah I agree with you first of all that"},{"startTime":2209.551,"endTime":2213.541,"body":"Kanban is a very simple, elegant method."},{"startTime":2213.541,"endTime":2214.921,"body":"It's so very effective."},{"startTime":2215.101,"endTime":2219.601,"body":"However, It requires discipline"},{"startTime":2215.101,"endTime":2219.601,"body":"for teams to do it well."},{"startTime":2219.661,"endTime":2219.961,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2220.051,"endTime":2220.381,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2220.441,"endTime":2224.171,"body":"I would argue it requires more"},{"startTime":2220.441,"endTime":2224.171,"body":"discipline to to work in a kanban way"},{"startTime":2224.171,"endTime":2226.061,"body":"than it does working in a Scrum way."},{"startTime":2226.541,"endTime":2231.095,"body":"I agree with that an example"},{"startTime":2226.541,"endTime":2231.095,"body":"would be sizing your work, right?"},{"startTime":2231.095,"endTime":2234.215,"body":"In Scrum everybody gets together"},{"startTime":2231.095,"endTime":2234.215,"body":"and you do the planning poker"},{"startTime":2234.22,"endTime":2235.115,"body":"or whatever it is, right?"},{"startTime":2235.165,"endTime":2238.705,"body":"But in Kanban, there's"},{"startTime":2235.165,"endTime":2238.705,"body":"really no need for that."},{"startTime":2238.795,"endTime":2242.705,"body":"Assuming the team is advanced"},{"startTime":2238.795,"endTime":2242.705,"body":"enough to break everything down"},{"startTime":2242.705,"endTime":2244.385,"body":"to be about the same size, right?"},{"startTime":2244.625,"endTime":2246.835,"body":"Then they can say, well,"},{"startTime":2244.625,"endTime":2246.835,"body":"well, how how big is this?"},{"startTime":2246.835,"endTime":2247.885,"body":"Is it one, is it two?"},{"startTime":2247.885,"endTime":2248.305,"body":"Is it three?"},{"startTime":2248.305,"endTime":2249.205,"body":"Just pick a number."},{"startTime":2249.385,"endTime":2250.645,"body":"Everything's about the same."},{"startTime":2250.855,"endTime":2252.595,"body":"It can be one or two up or down."},{"startTime":2252.625,"endTime":2253.465,"body":"Who cares, right?"},{"startTime":2253.465,"endTime":2253.555,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2253.655,"endTime":2253.895,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2253.9,"endTime":2256.105,"body":"So you don't spend time on that."},{"startTime":2256.525,"endTime":2259.795,"body":"Again, adding to the efficiency"},{"startTime":2256.525,"endTime":2259.795,"body":"and everyone's understanding,"},{"startTime":2259.845,"endTime":2261.285,"body":"but I don't see that."},{"startTime":2261.705,"endTime":2263.325,"body":"You know, out there all that often."},{"startTime":2263.355,"endTime":2263.775,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2263.835,"endTime":2265.755,"body":"People are just struggling with it."},{"startTime":2266.445,"endTime":2269.985,"body":"Which is funny to me because in all the"},{"startTime":2266.445,"endTime":2269.985,"body":"places that I've been, where I've been the"},{"startTime":2270.015,"endTime":2275.065,"body":"first product manager in the organization,"},{"startTime":2270.015,"endTime":2275.065,"body":"usually when you're the first product"},{"startTime":2275.065,"endTime":2279.895,"body":"manager, you, you're basically separating"},{"startTime":2275.065,"endTime":2279.895,"body":"the role from a leadership team member."},{"startTime":2279.955,"endTime":2280.045,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2280.495,"endTime":2282.535,"body":"So like usually a founder"},{"startTime":2280.495,"endTime":2282.535,"body":"or somebody like that."},{"startTime":2282.805,"endTime":2282.865,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2282.985,"endTime":2289.145,"body":"And when you do that a, a great way"},{"startTime":2282.985,"endTime":2289.145,"body":"to give them confidence is to come up"},{"startTime":2289.145,"endTime":2293.255,"body":"with a leadership kanban board that"},{"startTime":2289.145,"endTime":2293.255,"body":"has a swim lane for every member of"},{"startTime":2293.255,"endTime":2297.245,"body":"the leadership team and talking about"},{"startTime":2293.255,"endTime":2297.245,"body":"what, what initiatives they're kind of"},{"startTime":2297.245,"endTime":2301.325,"body":"shepherding, kind of moving along that"},{"startTime":2297.245,"endTime":2301.325,"body":"basically they, they, they stop moving."},{"startTime":2301.475,"endTime":2306.185,"body":"If the leadership team member stops"},{"startTime":2301.475,"endTime":2306.185,"body":"moving them along, cuz they, they, they"},{"startTime":2306.185,"endTime":2309.735,"body":"are like those single threaded leaders,"},{"startTime":2306.185,"endTime":2309.735,"body":"like I talk about on the podcast that"},{"startTime":2309.74,"endTime":2312.91,"body":"we've had where we talked about Amazon's"},{"startTime":2309.74,"endTime":2312.91,"body":"working backwards and stuff like that"},{"startTime":2312.91,"endTime":2316.97,"body":"with the Yeah, the organization, where"},{"startTime":2312.91,"endTime":2316.97,"body":"the organization starts, specific"},{"startTime":2316.97,"endTime":2321.0,"body":"initiatives and then or actually no, in"},{"startTime":2316.97,"endTime":2321.0,"body":"a smaller company, it's the executives"},{"startTime":2321.0,"endTime":2322.74,"body":"that start, that start the initiatives."},{"startTime":2322.745,"endTime":2322.78,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2322.86,"endTime":2325.4,"body":"So basically creating a swim lane"},{"startTime":2322.86,"endTime":2325.4,"body":"where it say, Hey, these are all"},{"startTime":2325.4,"endTime":2326.9,"body":"the initiatives that you started Mr."},{"startTime":2326.9,"endTime":2330.47,"body":"Executive, and here's the"},{"startTime":2326.9,"endTime":2330.47,"body":"columns that they appear in."},{"startTime":2330.84,"endTime":2334.05,"body":". If you do work in progress, you can"},{"startTime":2330.84,"endTime":2334.05,"body":"see like, well, I've got executive you"},{"startTime":2334.05,"endTime":2340.23,"body":"know, om the executive has started three"},{"startTime":2334.05,"endTime":2340.23,"body":"things and he's got one thing in the,"},{"startTime":2340.33,"endTime":2344.645,"body":"figuring it out column and one thing in"},{"startTime":2340.33,"endTime":2344.645,"body":"the actively doing column, or maybe one"},{"startTime":2344.645,"endTime":2347.855,"body":"thing in the budgeting column where he is"},{"startTime":2344.645,"endTime":2347.855,"body":"trying to like, get money or find money"},{"startTime":2348.035,"endTime":2349.925,"body":"for it or find market signal or whatever."},{"startTime":2349.925,"endTime":2350.015,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2350.075,"endTime":2353.165,"body":"And one thing in the actively"},{"startTime":2350.075,"endTime":2353.165,"body":"doing column, and then Brian has"},{"startTime":2353.645,"endTime":2356.135,"body":"10 things in the budgeting column."},{"startTime":2356.285,"endTime":2358.145,"body":"I'm like, Brian, you got a"},{"startTime":2356.285,"endTime":2358.145,"body":"lot of things in the air man."},{"startTime":2358.325,"endTime":2360.425,"body":"are you really working on"},{"startTime":2358.325,"endTime":2360.425,"body":"all these at the same time?"},{"startTime":2360.425,"endTime":2360.485,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2360.695,"endTime":2364.475,"body":"Because it just looks like"},{"startTime":2360.695,"endTime":2364.475,"body":"you're actively looking busy and"},{"startTime":2364.475,"endTime":2365.855,"body":"you're not really doing anything."},{"startTime":2365.855,"endTime":2367.505,"body":"Start starting and not finishing good."},{"startTime":2367.505,"endTime":2368.285,"body":"That's what what it looks like."},{"startTime":2368.285,"endTime":2368.765,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2368.77,"endTime":2368.775,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2368.795,"endTime":2371.135,"body":"But, but that, that was, that was one"},{"startTime":2368.795,"endTime":2371.135,"body":"of the first things that I would do to"},{"startTime":2371.135,"endTime":2373.835,"body":"separate the role of product is like, how,"},{"startTime":2371.135,"endTime":2373.835,"body":"how many things do we have in the air?"},{"startTime":2373.835,"endTime":2378.275,"body":"How many, especially when you're"},{"startTime":2373.835,"endTime":2378.275,"body":"at the, again, here, here we go."},{"startTime":2378.28,"endTime":2381.455,"body":"This is downshifting to the"},{"startTime":2378.28,"endTime":2381.455,"body":"product part of this podcast."},{"startTime":2381.905,"endTime":2385.535,"body":"Especially if you're in product and"},{"startTime":2381.905,"endTime":2385.535,"body":"you're attempting to try different"},{"startTime":2385.535,"endTime":2387.905,"body":"market strategies actively in the market."},{"startTime":2387.905,"endTime":2393.21,"body":"I just mentioned that today to someone"},{"startTime":2387.905,"endTime":2393.21,"body":"like, Hey, I, I who was telling me,"},{"startTime":2393.21,"endTime":2399.23,"body":"oh, I heard this competitor in our same"},{"startTime":2393.21,"endTime":2399.23,"body":"market talking about this new thing."},{"startTime":2399.71,"endTime":2403.94,"body":"And I pointed out, I was like, that's"},{"startTime":2399.71,"endTime":2403.94,"body":"them testing that signal in the market,"},{"startTime":2404.36,"endTime":2408.831,"body":"and they're seeing how many people get"},{"startTime":2404.36,"endTime":2408.831,"body":"back to them with that message to, to,"},{"startTime":2408.836,"endTime":2414.23,"body":"to, to write it down and to keep score of"},{"startTime":2408.836,"endTime":2414.23,"body":"like, oh, when we, when when salesperson A"},{"startTime":2414.44,"endTime":2418.03,"body":"tested this method for a certain amount of"},{"startTime":2414.44,"endTime":2418.03,"body":"time, it got back to us this many times."},{"startTime":2418.035,"endTime":2423.275,"body":"And when Salesperson B tested, This"},{"startTime":2418.035,"endTime":2423.275,"body":"marketing statement, basically we"},{"startTime":2423.275,"endTime":2424.625,"body":"can do whatever, you know right."},{"startTime":2424.625,"endTime":2425.285,"body":"It got back to us."},{"startTime":2425.285,"endTime":2428.975,"body":"This may, they're, they're testing"},{"startTime":2425.285,"endTime":2428.975,"body":"messages in the market to figure"},{"startTime":2428.975,"endTime":2430.415,"body":"out where they should sell to."},{"startTime":2430.655,"endTime":2434.105,"body":"That's just, that's exact"},{"startTime":2430.655,"endTime":2434.105,"body":"same as testing product ideas"},{"startTime":2434.245,"endTime":2434.305,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2434.305,"endTime":2435.805,"body":"You know, will, will"},{"startTime":2434.305,"endTime":2435.805,"body":"our customers use this?"},{"startTime":2435.81,"endTime":2436.435,"body":"Will they buy it?"},{"startTime":2436.675,"endTime":2437.485,"body":"It's the same thing."},{"startTime":2437.575,"endTime":2440.695,"body":"I was like, you, you just don't realize"},{"startTime":2437.575,"endTime":2440.695,"body":"it because it's, it's, it's coming from"},{"startTime":2440.695,"endTime":2445.915,"body":"a different piece of the business, but"},{"startTime":2440.695,"endTime":2445.915,"body":"an organization that truly is aligned"},{"startTime":2446.335,"endTime":2448.275,"body":"with Hey, we're gonna try this thing."},{"startTime":2448.995,"endTime":2451.715,"body":"Well, it I was talking about the"},{"startTime":2448.995,"endTime":2451.715,"body":"swim lanes being executives, what if"},{"startTime":2451.715,"endTime":2456.445,"body":"those swim lanes were like marketing"},{"startTime":2451.715,"endTime":2456.445,"body":"or marketing as sales or product."},{"startTime":2456.595,"endTime":2458.665,"body":"What if those were large"},{"startTime":2456.595,"endTime":2458.665,"body":"divisions of the organization?"},{"startTime":2459.295,"endTime":2462.985,"body":"And each, each of them could take"},{"startTime":2459.295,"endTime":2462.985,"body":"a piece of the initiatives from"},{"startTime":2462.985,"endTime":2466.465,"body":"the executives and try them in"},{"startTime":2462.985,"endTime":2466.465,"body":"the field to help the executive"},{"startTime":2466.465,"endTime":2468.475,"body":"understand if they're getting signal."},{"startTime":2468.595,"endTime":2470.035,"body":"Well, that would be great."},{"startTime":2470.035,"endTime":2472.975,"body":"And like everyone listening's"},{"startTime":2470.035,"endTime":2472.975,"body":"like, wow, that's kind of cool."},{"startTime":2472.975,"endTime":2475.075,"body":"Brian is like, the whole"},{"startTime":2472.975,"endTime":2475.075,"body":"system's working together."},{"startTime":2475.075,"endTime":2475.825,"body":"It'd be successful."},{"startTime":2475.975,"endTime":2476.545,"body":"Yeah, it is."},{"startTime":2476.545,"endTime":2477.505,"body":"We'll get to that in a second."},{"startTime":2477.685,"endTime":2483.045,"body":"But also like if, if it, if om the"},{"startTime":2477.685,"endTime":2483.045,"body":"executive is asking people to try two"},{"startTime":2483.045,"endTime":2487.785,"body":"different things and Brian's asking"},{"startTime":2483.045,"endTime":2487.785,"body":"people to try 25 different things,"},{"startTime":2488.955,"endTime":2491.385,"body":"like we need, we need to line up"},{"startTime":2488.955,"endTime":2491.385,"body":"at some point to be like, look man"},{"startTime":2491.465,"endTime":2492.995,"body":"you're a little overwhelming, you know?"},{"startTime":2493.025,"endTime":2498.935,"body":"Yeah, you're absolutely right about the"},{"startTime":2493.025,"endTime":2498.935,"body":"use of the Kanban way for executives."},{"startTime":2498.935,"endTime":2499.385,"body":"That's Kanban."},{"startTime":2499.385,"endTime":2499.565,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2499.595,"endTime":2502.205,"body":"We, we use this all time"},{"startTime":2499.595,"endTime":2502.205,"body":"in transformation efforts."},{"startTime":2502.205,"endTime":2502.445,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2502.475,"endTime":2504.625,"body":"You, you create create a"},{"startTime":2502.475,"endTime":2504.625,"body":"leadership Kanban board."},{"startTime":2504.625,"endTime":2504.705,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2504.705,"endTime":2504.825,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2504.83,"endTime":2504.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2505.145,"endTime":2509.585,"body":"And not only is it per domain or"},{"startTime":2505.145,"endTime":2509.585,"body":"per executive, you can actually, the"},{"startTime":2509.585,"endTime":2513.615,"body":"added benefit to that is you can map"},{"startTime":2509.585,"endTime":2513.615,"body":"who's waiting on something from whom."},{"startTime":2513.675,"endTime":2513.885,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2513.885,"endTime":2514.095,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2514.125,"endTime":2514.515,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2514.755,"endTime":2517.035,"body":"So you can clearly see that"},{"startTime":2514.755,"endTime":2517.035,"body":"every time you meet them."},{"startTime":2517.095,"endTime":2517.425,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2517.605,"endTime":2519.285,"body":"You can say, well, this hasn't moved."},{"startTime":2519.495,"endTime":2522.765,"body":"Oh, that's because Mary hasn't got back"},{"startTime":2519.495,"endTime":2522.765,"body":"to me, or Fred hasn't got back to me."},{"startTime":2522.765,"endTime":2522.885,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2523.605,"endTime":2525.105,"body":"Mary and Fred are around the table."},{"startTime":2525.105,"endTime":2525.435,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2525.525,"endTime":2526.545,"body":"When's this gonna happen?"},{"startTime":2526.55,"endTime":2529.16,"body":"So we can start actually"},{"startTime":2526.55,"endTime":2529.16,"body":"moving things along."},{"startTime":2529.165,"endTime":2529.4,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2529.4,"endTime":2533.33,"body":"Yeah and then the second point I"},{"startTime":2529.4,"endTime":2533.33,"body":"wanna make is, directly or indirectly,"},{"startTime":2533.33,"endTime":2537.44,"body":"you can certainly see all of those"},{"startTime":2533.33,"endTime":2537.44,"body":"things stacked up in a given column."},{"startTime":2537.5,"endTime":2539.27,"body":"That's, that's your"},{"startTime":2537.5,"endTime":2539.27,"body":"bottlenecking right there."},{"startTime":2539.66,"endTime":2539.81,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2539.815,"endTime":2543.89,"body":"So you can identify those and smooth"},{"startTime":2539.815,"endTime":2543.89,"body":"those out so you have a predictable flow."},{"startTime":2543.89,"endTime":2544.19,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2544.28,"endTime":2544.82,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2544.825,"endTime":2546.89,"body":"Those are essential elements of Kanban."},{"startTime":2547.43,"endTime":2551.885,"body":"If a development team is using that,"},{"startTime":2547.43,"endTime":2551.885,"body":"It can work the same way, provided"},{"startTime":2551.915,"endTime":2554.345,"body":"you are limiting work in process."},{"startTime":2554.35,"endTime":2554.535,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2554.615,"endTime":2554.775,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2554.835,"endTime":2555.255,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2555.365,"endTime":2558.335,"body":"You are keeping that backlog"},{"startTime":2555.365,"endTime":2558.335,"body":"replenished on some cadence."},{"startTime":2558.335,"endTime":2558.575,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2558.675,"endTime":2559.715,"body":"Or, or sporadically."},{"startTime":2559.715,"endTime":2561.605,"body":"It doesn't really matter as"},{"startTime":2559.715,"endTime":2561.605,"body":"long as there's enough for"},{"startTime":2561.605,"endTime":2563.135,"body":"people to pull from, right?"},{"startTime":2563.225,"endTime":2567.765,"body":"Mm-hmm and then looking at and"},{"startTime":2563.225,"endTime":2567.765,"body":"eliminating wherever you see behaviors"},{"startTime":2567.765,"endTime":2571.575,"body":"that basically show you people"},{"startTime":2567.765,"endTime":2571.575,"body":"keep starting and not finishing."},{"startTime":2571.725,"endTime":2572.025,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2572.055,"endTime":2572.355,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2572.385,"endTime":2574.515,"body":"It's, it's elegant in its simplicity."},{"startTime":2574.935,"endTime":2576.325,"body":"So like, I like kanban."},{"startTime":2576.395,"endTime":2578.615,"body":"I don't think I have a specific"},{"startTime":2576.395,"endTime":2578.615,"body":"example where I've been"},{"startTime":2578.795,"endTime":2581.225,"body":"forced, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2581.225,"endTime":2584.025,"body":"Where management has come down"},{"startTime":2581.225,"endTime":2584.025,"body":"and said, use Kanban usually it's"},{"startTime":2584.025,"endTime":2588.965,"body":"me conflicting with a development"},{"startTime":2584.025,"endTime":2588.965,"body":"department that's claiming to use Kanban."},{"startTime":2589.805,"endTime":2593.345,"body":"Except when you dig into it a little more,"},{"startTime":2589.805,"endTime":2593.345,"body":"they're not using throughput metrics."},{"startTime":2593.345,"endTime":2594.605,"body":"They don't have work in progress."},{"startTime":2594.755,"endTime":2600.77,"body":"If it ends up being pure chaos,"},{"startTime":2594.755,"endTime":2600.77,"body":"when you dig into it, And that has"},{"startTime":2600.77,"endTime":2602.54,"body":"been kind of the root of my problem."},{"startTime":2602.59,"endTime":2608.14,"body":"I've very rarely seen Kanban"},{"startTime":2602.59,"endTime":2608.14,"body":"used at a team level besides the"},{"startTime":2608.14,"endTime":2614.17,"body":"example I talked about to, to truly"},{"startTime":2608.14,"endTime":2614.17,"body":"like to truly effective results."},{"startTime":2614.53,"endTime":2618.1,"body":"It's like, I, I, I hate that I have"},{"startTime":2614.53,"endTime":2618.1,"body":"to say that because like, I, I really"},{"startTime":2618.1,"endTime":2622.21,"body":"think that Kanban is a great way of"},{"startTime":2618.1,"endTime":2622.21,"body":"working and can solve a lot of problems."},{"startTime":2622.21,"endTime":2626.74,"body":"And also, and also at a leadership"},{"startTime":2622.21,"endTime":2626.74,"body":"level, I think that's the only"},{"startTime":2626.74,"endTime":2629.38,"body":"way that they work is Kanban."},{"startTime":2629.53,"endTime":2631.84,"body":"Even if they don't, even if they"},{"startTime":2629.53,"endTime":2631.84,"body":"don't know that they're working"},{"startTime":2631.84,"endTime":2633.4,"body":"that way, that is the way they work."},{"startTime":2634.33,"endTime":2634.63,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2634.63,"endTime":2639.76,"body":"My, my experience is similar I've not"},{"startTime":2634.63,"endTime":2639.76,"body":"seen an organization dictate Kanban"},{"startTime":2639.82,"endTime":2644.81,"body":"as a way of working on the team and,"},{"startTime":2639.82,"endTime":2644.81,"body":"and also at the same time in an agile"},{"startTime":2644.81,"endTime":2649.79,"body":"transformation, I would use Kanban"},{"startTime":2644.81,"endTime":2649.79,"body":"as an effective way to have executive"},{"startTime":2649.79,"endTime":2651.54,"body":"engage in what they're trying to do."},{"startTime":2651.96,"endTime":2657.9,"body":"So then it's up to them to see what there"},{"startTime":2651.96,"endTime":2657.9,"body":"is to be seen because it makes everything"},{"startTime":2657.9,"endTime":2659.7,"body":"visible, the good, bad, and the ugly."},{"startTime":2659.76,"endTime":2660.06,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2660.15,"endTime":2662.13,"body":"And then it's up to"},{"startTime":2660.15,"endTime":2662.13,"body":"them to take the steps."},{"startTime":2662.34,"endTime":2665.34,"body":"But all I'm doing is really holding"},{"startTime":2662.34,"endTime":2665.34,"body":"up a mirror right at that point"},{"startTime":2665.34,"endTime":2667.02,"body":"saying, this is what you've got."},{"startTime":2667.26,"endTime":2668.22,"body":"Now what are you gonna do about it?"},{"startTime":2668.28,"endTime":2668.52,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2668.61,"endTime":2668.94,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2669.134,"endTime":2671.204,"body":"Well, that's depressing"},{"startTime":2672.327,"endTime":2677.267,"body":"we kind of dipped into lean while talking"},{"startTime":2672.327,"endTime":2677.267,"body":"about Kanban I don't think of lean as"},{"startTime":2677.272,"endTime":2679.397,"body":"a software development methodology."},{"startTime":2679.667,"endTime":2683.747,"body":"So Wikipedia says Lean"},{"startTime":2679.667,"endTime":2683.747,"body":"Software development."},{"startTime":2683.797,"endTime":2687.512,"body":"It says lean Software Development's,"},{"startTime":2683.797,"endTime":2687.512,"body":"a translation of lean manufacturing"},{"startTime":2687.512,"endTime":2691.592,"body":"principles and practices adapted"},{"startTime":2687.512,"endTime":2691.592,"body":"from Toyota Production System."},{"startTime":2692.012,"endTime":2694.112,"body":"So it's not a methodology per se."},{"startTime":2694.382,"endTime":2699.302,"body":"It's not a methodology, but there"},{"startTime":2694.382,"endTime":2699.302,"body":"are, there are principles, just"},{"startTime":2699.302,"endTime":2700.532,"body":"like in Agile, there are principles."},{"startTime":2700.532,"endTime":2704.222,"body":"The principles are eliminating waste,"},{"startTime":2700.532,"endTime":2704.222,"body":"amplifying learning, decide as late as"},{"startTime":2704.222,"endTime":2707.522,"body":"possible, deliver as fast as possible,"},{"startTime":2704.222,"endTime":2707.522,"body":"empower the team, build integrity, and"},{"startTime":2707.522,"endTime":2711.482,"body":"optimize the whole aka systems thinking."},{"startTime":2711.487,"endTime":2711.582,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2711.822,"endTime":2714.682,"body":"And then there's a whole bunch of"},{"startTime":2711.822,"endTime":2714.682,"body":"items in regards to eliminating waste."},{"startTime":2714.682,"endTime":2716.992,"body":"You can look on Wikipedia"},{"startTime":2714.682,"endTime":2716.992,"body":"for all this and that."},{"startTime":2717.292,"endTime":2720.742,"body":"And also there's, there's the"},{"startTime":2717.292,"endTime":2720.742,"body":"famous book well go Goldratt."},{"startTime":2720.912,"endTime":2722.802,"body":"Uh, the Goal by Goldratt was the original."},{"startTime":2722.807,"endTime":2725.422,"body":"That's the original lean"},{"startTime":2722.807,"endTime":2725.422,"body":"book - Eliyahu Goldratt."},{"startTime":2725.442,"endTime":2725.592,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2725.597,"endTime":2726.462,"body":"From, from the eighties."},{"startTime":2726.462,"endTime":2727.842,"body":"But that, that's not the"},{"startTime":2726.462,"endTime":2727.842,"body":"one I'm talking about."},{"startTime":2727.842,"endTime":2730.829,"body":"What I'm talking about is"},{"startTime":2727.842,"endTime":2730.829,"body":"eric Reis The Lean Startup."},{"startTime":2731.459,"endTime":2732.419,"body":"The Lean Startup by Air."},{"startTime":2732.569,"endTime":2733.021,"body":"Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2733.026,"endTime":2734.449,"body":"I have that, that's"},{"startTime":2733.026,"endTime":2734.449,"body":"the, I'm talking about."},{"startTime":2734.489,"endTime":2735.509,"body":"Yeah, that's what I'm talking about"},{"startTime":2735.959,"endTime":2737.759,"body":"that's the one that people go"},{"startTime":2735.959,"endTime":2737.759,"body":"back to when they're talking"},{"startTime":2737.759,"endTime":2738.599,"body":"about software development."},{"startTime":2738.599,"endTime":2739.319,"body":"The Lean Startup."},{"startTime":2739.319,"endTime":2739.499,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2739.499,"endTime":2739.739,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2739.849,"endTime":2743.749,"body":"So lean really, I mean, it's,"},{"startTime":2739.849,"endTime":2743.749,"body":"it's the, it's the adoption of"},{"startTime":2743.749,"endTime":2745.549,"body":"those principles, just like agile."},{"startTime":2745.549,"endTime":2745.759,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2745.759,"endTime":2746.149,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2746.149,"endTime":2746.209,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2746.239,"endTime":2746.959,"body":"That, that's right."},{"startTime":2746.989,"endTime":2750.619,"body":"But lean's principles though"},{"startTime":2746.989,"endTime":2750.619,"body":"originate in manufacturing, right?"},{"startTime":2750.624,"endTime":2753.899,"body":"Manufacturing, yeah Toyota basically"},{"startTime":2750.624,"endTime":2753.899,"body":"was the the thought bed where, where it"},{"startTime":2753.929,"endTime":2756.299,"body":"was all kind of dreamt up, if you like."},{"startTime":2756.349,"endTime":2760.439,"body":"And coming back to the essence of that"},{"startTime":2756.349,"endTime":2760.439,"body":"question I mean like at, at a time"},{"startTime":2760.439,"endTime":2765.079,"body":"where like a company would come down"},{"startTime":2760.439,"endTime":2765.079,"body":"or a, a founder would come down and"},{"startTime":2765.079,"endTime":2768.199,"body":"say, maybe we've been running with"},{"startTime":2765.079,"endTime":2768.199,"body":"all these different methodologies and"},{"startTime":2768.199,"endTime":2770.239,"body":"now we're just gonna be pure lean."},{"startTime":2771.559,"endTime":2773.929,"body":"I've never, never"},{"startTime":2771.559,"endTime":2773.929,"body":"experienced that in my life."},{"startTime":2773.989,"endTime":2774.199,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2774.529,"endTime":2777.014,"body":"I think the closest thing I've"},{"startTime":2774.529,"endTime":2777.014,"body":"seen to this is people saying,"},{"startTime":2777.044,"endTime":2782.204,"body":"Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna"},{"startTime":2777.044,"endTime":2782.204,"body":"use some Lean six Sigma metrics."},{"startTime":2782.264,"endTime":2782.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2782.654,"endTime":2783.404,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2783.404,"endTime":2787.874,"body":"And that's where the word lean is kind"},{"startTime":2783.404,"endTime":2787.874,"body":"of globbed together and in what they were"},{"startTime":2787.874,"endTime":2789.764,"body":"doing, but it was never lean management."},{"startTime":2789.824,"endTime":2790.124,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2790.364,"endTime":2795.014,"body":"Well as you know, as the principles"},{"startTime":2790.364,"endTime":2795.014,"body":"would have you implement Lean"},{"startTime":2795.374,"endTime":2796.994,"body":"All right, so that's lean."},{"startTime":2797.094,"endTime":2799.344,"body":"there are other methodologies, right?"},{"startTime":2799.434,"endTime":2803.124,"body":"I know that the the writer"},{"startTime":2799.434,"endTime":2803.124,"body":"only asked us before, but there"},{"startTime":2803.124,"endTime":2804.669,"body":"are others well, XP is one."},{"startTime":2805.149,"endTime":2806.109,"body":"Yes, xp."},{"startTime":2806.379,"endTime":2809.044,"body":"XP is actually it predates scrum even."},{"startTime":2809.134,"endTime":2809.794,"body":"And it sure does."},{"startTime":2810.424,"endTime":2812.194,"body":"It's a fantastic methodology."},{"startTime":2812.194,"endTime":2816.424,"body":"However, I've never seen a company come"},{"startTime":2812.194,"endTime":2816.424,"body":"in and say, that shall work in XP way."},{"startTime":2816.694,"endTime":2820.809,"body":"Actually I've seen actually the"},{"startTime":2816.694,"endTime":2820.809,"body":"opposite is usually companies will"},{"startTime":2820.814,"endTime":2824.474,"body":"say oh my goodness, you got two"},{"startTime":2820.814,"endTime":2824.474,"body":"developers sitting at one screen, right?"},{"startTime":2824.474,"endTime":2824.894,"body":"What, what?"},{"startTime":2825.314,"endTime":2828.404,"body":"Oh, you're operating at 50% capacity."},{"startTime":2828.409,"endTime":2829.694,"body":"That's ridiculous."},{"startTime":2829.699,"endTime":2829.994,"body":"Why would you?"},{"startTime":2829.994,"endTime":2832.364,"body":"Yeah, utilization is hard"},{"startTime":2829.994,"endTime":2832.364,"body":"for what we need it to be."},{"startTime":2832.424,"endTime":2835.664,"body":"Which is funny because I, I could,"},{"startTime":2832.424,"endTime":2835.664,"body":"I could have swore that there was a"},{"startTime":2835.664,"endTime":2838.774,"body":"statement about, I don't know if this was."},{"startTime":2839.299,"endTime":2844.399,"body":"Alistair or if this was somebody else"},{"startTime":2839.299,"endTime":2844.399,"body":"who said, we never imagined when we were"},{"startTime":2844.399,"endTime":2847.969,"body":"talking about either Scrum or Agile."},{"startTime":2847.999,"endTime":2848.599,"body":"I can't remember."},{"startTime":2848.779,"endTime":2853.039,"body":"We never imagined anyone doing Scrum"},{"startTime":2848.779,"endTime":2853.039,"body":"and not doing XP at the same time."},{"startTime":2853.669,"endTime":2856.609,"body":"I, that was the, I think it was"},{"startTime":2853.669,"endTime":2856.609,"body":"Scrum that, that was the statement."},{"startTime":2856.789,"endTime":2862.069,"body":"I, I wish I could attribute that statement"},{"startTime":2856.789,"endTime":2862.069,"body":"to the proper person cuz I I do recall it."},{"startTime":2862.879,"endTime":2867.319,"body":"But xp so I mean, the idea extreme"},{"startTime":2862.879,"endTime":2867.319,"body":"programming, the idea is you have two"},{"startTime":2867.319,"endTime":2871.819,"body":"people sitting behind the keyboard"},{"startTime":2867.319,"endTime":2871.819,"body":"and writing the same bit of code."},{"startTime":2872.329,"endTime":2875.719,"body":"Which, which I, I will tell you"},{"startTime":2872.329,"endTime":2875.719,"body":"like I, I, I think of all the shops"},{"startTime":2875.719,"endTime":2879.069,"body":"I've ever worked in and a, a good"},{"startTime":2875.719,"endTime":2879.069,"body":"majority of them would think that"},{"startTime":2879.069,"endTime":2880.899,"body":"that idea is absolutely bananas."},{"startTime":2882.309,"endTime":2885.759,"body":"Yeah again, management would"},{"startTime":2882.309,"endTime":2885.759,"body":"definitely think of it as bananas."},{"startTime":2885.819,"endTime":2889.069,"body":"Yeah if you look at the team level"},{"startTime":2885.819,"endTime":2889.069,"body":"and say, let's look back and see"},{"startTime":2889.069,"endTime":2890.509,"body":"how the last few sprints went."},{"startTime":2890.569,"endTime":2894.929,"body":"Yeah would it have been better to have"},{"startTime":2890.569,"endTime":2894.929,"body":"two people tackle a problem at a time?"},{"startTime":2895.169,"endTime":2895.559,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2896.459,"endTime":2899.939,"body":"You still get more through in the"},{"startTime":2896.459,"endTime":2899.939,"body":"end, people don't realize that."},{"startTime":2899.969,"endTime":2902.419,"body":"They just think well, you're"},{"startTime":2899.969,"endTime":2902.419,"body":"only gonna get five things done,"},{"startTime":2902.419,"endTime":2904.169,"body":"whereas you would've got 10 done."},{"startTime":2904.169,"endTime":2905.849,"body":"That's not, it's not linear like that."},{"startTime":2905.854,"endTime":2906.039,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2906.119,"endTime":2906.299,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2906.389,"endTime":2910.589,"body":"But the benefit of having two"},{"startTime":2906.389,"endTime":2910.589,"body":"pairs of eyes on the problem is"},{"startTime":2911.939,"endTime":2913.949,"body":"you get so much more creativity."},{"startTime":2914.039,"endTime":2920.459,"body":"You also, you also can potentially knock"},{"startTime":2914.039,"endTime":2920.459,"body":"out those bugs that may have formed."},{"startTime":2920.819,"endTime":2921.599,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2921.629,"endTime":2925.895,"body":"If one person is just attacking the"},{"startTime":2921.629,"endTime":2925.895,"body":"problem mm-hmm you eliminate the bugs"},{"startTime":2925.9,"endTime":2927.095,"body":"from happening in the first place."},{"startTime":2927.245,"endTime":2927.335,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2927.575,"endTime":2929.555,"body":"Not every bug granted,"},{"startTime":2927.575,"endTime":2929.555,"body":"but you know, quite a few."},{"startTime":2929.735,"endTime":2931.865,"body":"So that justifies having"},{"startTime":2929.735,"endTime":2931.865,"body":"two people on there."},{"startTime":2931.87,"endTime":2931.945,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2932.525,"endTime":2935.975,"body":"The other kind of hidden"},{"startTime":2932.525,"endTime":2935.975,"body":"benefit is knowledge."},{"startTime":2936.095,"endTime":2941.45,"body":"It helps you become more kind of,"},{"startTime":2936.095,"endTime":2941.45,"body":"T-shaped as a team, I'm saying now, right?"},{"startTime":2941.455,"endTime":2941.5,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2941.69,"endTime":2943.61,"body":"So you have two people working on this."},{"startTime":2944.27,"endTime":2946.82,"body":"Lo and behold, one person's"},{"startTime":2944.27,"endTime":2946.82,"body":"out for a day, right?"},{"startTime":2947.96,"endTime":2950.84,"body":"Things don't grant you a halt at"},{"startTime":2947.96,"endTime":2950.84,"body":"that point, cuz somebody else can"},{"startTime":2950.84,"endTime":2952.19,"body":"pick up the ball and run with it?"},{"startTime":2952.67,"endTime":2956.12,"body":"So all of that increases"},{"startTime":2952.67,"endTime":2956.12,"body":"your throughput in the end."},{"startTime":2956.63,"endTime":2959.03,"body":"So those people that are"},{"startTime":2956.63,"endTime":2959.03,"body":"naysayers to this, like they"},{"startTime":2959.03,"endTime":2960.32,"body":"haven't considered all this."},{"startTime":2960.43,"endTime":2964.96,"body":"The funny thing is I've been"},{"startTime":2960.43,"endTime":2964.96,"body":"in the career field for like n"},{"startTime":2964.96,"endTime":2967.0,"body":"a non-trivial amount of time."},{"startTime":2967.45,"endTime":2971.95,"body":"I've not seen this as a structured"},{"startTime":2967.45,"endTime":2971.95,"body":"approach in your, whatever"},{"startTime":2971.95,"endTime":2972.94,"body":"methodology you're using."},{"startTime":2973.72,"endTime":2974.05,"body":"I've just not seen it."},{"startTime":2974.05,"endTime":2974.17,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2974.17,"endTime":2977.05,"body":"I, my, my experience is similar,"},{"startTime":2974.17,"endTime":2977.05,"body":"not a structured approach, but I"},{"startTime":2977.05,"endTime":2979.36,"body":"have seen offshoots that do this."},{"startTime":2979.36,"endTime":2983.53,"body":"Like, I've seen one particular team, I"},{"startTime":2979.36,"endTime":2983.53,"body":"remember they were working on stories"},{"startTime":2983.53,"endTime":2984.61,"body":"that they just couldn't finish."},{"startTime":2984.64,"endTime":2984.82,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2985.15,"endTime":2988.33,"body":"And a suggestion was to"},{"startTime":2985.15,"endTime":2988.33,"body":"basically do this, right."},{"startTime":2988.33,"endTime":2988.99,"body":"Pay a program."},{"startTime":2988.995,"endTime":2994.9,"body":"Mm-hmm They didn't exactly do that,"},{"startTime":2988.995,"endTime":2994.9,"body":"but they would do what is currently"},{"startTime":2994.9,"endTime":2996.85,"body":"now called mob programming, right?"},{"startTime":2996.88,"endTime":2997.07,"body":"Sure, sure."},{"startTime":2997.075,"endTime":3000.36,"body":"So three or four people would hover"},{"startTime":2997.075,"endTime":3000.36,"body":"around there, break the problem down"},{"startTime":3000.36,"endTime":3003.36,"body":"into little pieces and say, somebody"},{"startTime":3000.36,"endTime":3003.36,"body":"will say, I'll, I can do this."},{"startTime":3003.36,"endTime":3004.68,"body":"Somebody will say, I can do this."},{"startTime":3004.77,"endTime":3008.22,"body":"And then they come back frequently,"},{"startTime":3004.77,"endTime":3008.22,"body":"even multiple times during the"},{"startTime":3008.22,"endTime":3013.51,"body":"day that's kind of a variation, I"},{"startTime":3008.22,"endTime":3013.51,"body":"guess, of uh oppe programming as XP"},{"startTime":3013.51,"endTime":3015.17,"body":"called it it was quite effective."},{"startTime":3015.395,"endTime":3019.175,"body":"But it was short-lived, unfortunately,"},{"startTime":3015.395,"endTime":3019.175,"body":"because management came down"},{"startTime":3019.175,"endTime":3020.675,"body":"and demanded those metrics."},{"startTime":3020.675,"endTime":3023.255,"body":"Why have five people"},{"startTime":3020.675,"endTime":3023.255,"body":"working on this one story?"},{"startTime":3023.465,"endTime":3023.825,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3023.83,"endTime":3026.965,"body":"Yeah, yeah the alternative is one"},{"startTime":3023.83,"endTime":3026.965,"body":"person work on it, not finish it."},{"startTime":3027.265,"endTime":3028.345,"body":"That's, that's the alternative."},{"startTime":3028.445,"endTime":3031.355,"body":"Oh, one other thing I just thought"},{"startTime":3028.445,"endTime":3031.355,"body":"about one of the, one of the nice"},{"startTime":3031.355,"endTime":3036.425,"body":"things with XP when it's done right,"},{"startTime":3031.355,"endTime":3036.425,"body":"before releasing anything into"},{"startTime":3036.425,"endTime":3041.795,"body":"production, you had the customer"},{"startTime":3036.425,"endTime":3041.795,"body":"looking at at least the test results,"},{"startTime":3041.795,"endTime":3043.625,"body":"maybe even get involved with testing."},{"startTime":3044.015,"endTime":3046.715,"body":"Um, and, and when they were happy,"},{"startTime":3044.015,"endTime":3046.715,"body":"you put something out in production."},{"startTime":3047.555,"endTime":3047.915,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3047.915,"endTime":3051.785,"body":"So you are increasing your chances"},{"startTime":3047.915,"endTime":3051.785,"body":"of a successful release because"},{"startTime":3051.785,"endTime":3055.325,"body":"you're getting the customer to see"},{"startTime":3051.785,"endTime":3055.325,"body":"what they're getting upfront right."},{"startTime":3055.325,"endTime":3058.995,"body":"Before putting it out there so"},{"startTime":3055.325,"endTime":3058.995,"body":"that was like, for me it was a very"},{"startTime":3059.415,"endTime":3062.785,"body":"positive thing cuz these days you"},{"startTime":3059.415,"endTime":3062.785,"body":"don't really see that very often."},{"startTime":3063.085,"endTime":3063.325,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3063.325,"endTime":3066.585,"body":"They're there at your demo where"},{"startTime":3063.325,"endTime":3066.585,"body":"you say, ignore the man behind the"},{"startTime":3066.585,"endTime":3068.025,"body":"curtain, look Right, this works."},{"startTime":3068.025,"endTime":3071.325,"body":"And then you put it in production"},{"startTime":3068.025,"endTime":3071.325,"body":"and it falls about their ankles."},{"startTime":3071.325,"endTime":3071.505,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3071.565,"endTime":3072.525,"body":"That's terrible."},{"startTime":3072.975,"endTime":3076.835,"body":"So that was a big positive and again,"},{"startTime":3072.975,"endTime":3076.835,"body":"not seeing many companies mandate"},{"startTime":3076.835,"endTime":3078.605,"body":"xp, so we're not seeing that benefit."},{"startTime":3078.725,"endTime":3078.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3078.905,"endTime":3079.385,"body":"Sadly."},{"startTime":3079.656,"endTime":3084.246,"body":"So we kind of cook through the"},{"startTime":3079.656,"endTime":3084.246,"body":"majority of quote methodologies,"},{"startTime":3084.251,"endTime":3085.386,"body":"the major methodologies."},{"startTime":3085.626,"endTime":3088.821,"body":"And I have this I have a note"},{"startTime":3085.626,"endTime":3088.821,"body":"about when you Google software"},{"startTime":3088.821,"endTime":3092.751,"body":"development methodologies, Things"},{"startTime":3088.821,"endTime":3092.751,"body":"that come up that I've either not"},{"startTime":3092.751,"endTime":3095.781,"body":"been exposed to or I don't agree that"},{"startTime":3092.751,"endTime":3095.781,"body":"they're full blown methodologies."},{"startTime":3095.781,"endTime":3099.151,"body":"They're like, I think that they're"},{"startTime":3095.781,"endTime":3099.151,"body":"processes and there are four of them."},{"startTime":3099.151,"endTime":3101.431,"body":"There are T, D, D and B."},{"startTime":3101.431,"endTime":3104.821,"body":"D, D, test driven development,"},{"startTime":3101.431,"endTime":3104.821,"body":"behavior driven development."},{"startTime":3104.821,"endTime":3105.601,"body":"Those are tools."},{"startTime":3105.711,"endTime":3108.861,"body":"there's f, D, D, that's a methodology."},{"startTime":3108.861,"endTime":3109.971,"body":"Is it feature driven development?"},{"startTime":3109.971,"endTime":3112.501,"body":"Yeah, feature driven"},{"startTime":3109.971,"endTime":3112.501,"body":"development is a methodology."},{"startTime":3112.506,"endTime":3114.001,"body":"Again, it's very rare."},{"startTime":3114.331,"endTime":3118.651,"body":"It is rare, but it's a,"},{"startTime":3114.331,"endTime":3118.651,"body":"it's a legit methodology."},{"startTime":3118.651,"endTime":3118.861,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3119.221,"endTime":3122.236,"body":"What about what about rapid"},{"startTime":3119.221,"endTime":3122.236,"body":"application development?"},{"startTime":3122.236,"endTime":3125.476,"body":"I've heard of it, but I've never"},{"startTime":3122.236,"endTime":3125.476,"body":"encountered a shop, ever running"},{"startTime":3125.866,"endTime":3127.156,"body":"rapid application development."},{"startTime":3128.686,"endTime":3131.796,"body":"Rapid application development,"},{"startTime":3128.686,"endTime":3131.796,"body":"I think predates I think it"},{"startTime":3131.796,"endTime":3137.576,"body":"predates Scrum in 1991, book rapid"},{"startTime":3131.796,"endTime":3137.576,"body":"application development resulted in"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3137.576,"endTime":3140.456,"body":"rad."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3140.816,"endTime":3141.986,"body":"Jim Martin came up with it."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3147.686,"endTime":3148.376,"body":"Requirements."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3148.376,"endTime":3152.786,"body":"Planning user, user design and"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3148.376,"endTime":3152.786,"body":"construction, and then cut over cutover."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3153.236,"endTime":3153.686,"body":"Cutover phase."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3153.746,"endTime":3158.246,"body":"Cutover phase is that the, when"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3153.746,"endTime":3158.246,"body":"you cut over to the new system,"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3158.251,"endTime":3161.396,"body":"remember this is the eighties,"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3158.251,"endTime":3161.396,"body":"they used to do cutovers, right?"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3161.396,"endTime":3163.946,"body":"So you run parallel"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3161.396,"endTime":3163.946,"body":"from a, the old system."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3163.946,"endTime":3164.816,"body":"In the new system."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3165.176,"endTime":3168.866,"body":"You'd compare the two outputs and then"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3165.176,"endTime":3168.866,"body":"you'd go, yeah, it kind of sort of works."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3169.136,"endTime":3173.324,"body":"You do a conversion of the data"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3169.136,"endTime":3173.324,"body":"and that's the cutover process."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3173.364,"endTime":3176.964,"body":"I don't know any company that"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3173.364,"endTime":3176.964,"body":"said let's use rapid applications."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3177.504,"endTime":3179.604,"body":"They use prototyping as it was called."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3179.664,"endTime":3180.024,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3180.324,"endTime":3183.264,"body":"And there's even the"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3180.324,"endTime":3183.264,"body":"term rapid prototyping."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3183.444,"endTime":3183.714,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3183.774,"endTime":3186.084,"body":"They used that, but they meant this."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3186.089,"endTime":3186.594,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3186.594,"endTime":3187.344,"body":"It's the same thing."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3187.374,"endTime":3188.094,"body":"They used it."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3188.274,"endTime":3191.664,"body":"Sure and then when Rep came about,"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3188.274,"endTime":3191.664,"body":"they used that considerably."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3191.664,"endTime":3194.274,"body":"Now no companies that"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3191.664,"endTime":3194.274,"body":"worked in erupt manner."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3194.274,"endTime":3194.364,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3194.604,"endTime":3195.474,"body":"Quite a few companies."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3195.654,"endTime":3199.854,"body":"And that's because of the heft of"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3195.654,"endTime":3199.854,"body":"the likes of I B M, who actually."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3200.609,"endTime":3201.369,"body":"Mandated it probably."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3201.369,"endTime":3204.879,"body":"No, they bought it, mandated it,"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3201.369,"endTime":3204.879,"body":"they used it themselves, right?"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3204.909,"endTime":3205.149,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3205.209,"endTime":3209.319,"body":"This is before, before when I"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3205.209,"endTime":3209.319,"body":"worked at ibm, they were already"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3209.319,"endTime":3210.549,"body":"using it when I got there."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3210.554,"endTime":3210.579,"body":"Uhhuh."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3210.879,"endTime":3213.459,"body":"So what we would do is we'd"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3210.879,"endTime":3213.459,"body":"grow our clients and say,"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3213.459,"endTime":3214.599,"body":"we have this great method."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3214.809,"endTime":3215.049,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3215.199,"endTime":3219.229,"body":"This is what we, how we use this is the"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3215.199,"endTime":3219.229,"body":"method we use to develop software for you."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3219.379,"endTime":3219.829,"body":"Huh?"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3219.829,"endTime":3219.83,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3219.835,"endTime":3219.889,"body":"Huh?"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3220.099,"endTime":3222.489,"body":"And it's fantastic and that sold it."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3222.609,"endTime":3222.819,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3223.239,"endTime":3228.544,"body":"So IBM put their weight behind it so I"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3223.239,"endTime":3228.544,"body":"guess we've transitioned from RAD to RUP."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3228.564,"endTime":3232.104,"body":"Well IBM's not using, are, are"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3228.564,"endTime":3232.104,"body":"they using RUP anymore or they,"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3232.104,"endTime":3234.724,"body":"have they transitioned to more"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3232.104,"endTime":3234.724,"body":"agile kind of, I think they have"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3234.774,"endTime":3236.334,"body":"transitioned to more agile ways now."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3236.334,"endTime":3236.484,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3237.654,"endTime":3238.344,"body":"That's interesting."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3238.644,"endTime":3241.194,"body":"I don't know if there's any summaries"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3238.644,"endTime":3241.194,"body":"or takeaways to be made from this"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3241.199,"endTime":3245.994,"body":"podcast other than, Hey, like forcing"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3241.199,"endTime":3245.994,"body":"th like forcing square pegs in the"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3245.994,"endTime":3248.394,"body":"round holes always is a bad time."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3249.444,"endTime":3253.524,"body":"Well, the only takeaway I ha I have"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3249.444,"endTime":3253.524,"body":"as a kind of summary for this podcast"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3253.524,"endTime":3259.634,"body":"is if your organization is stipulating"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3253.524,"endTime":3259.634,"body":"or mandating a given approach tread"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3259.634,"endTime":3262.104,"body":"carefully and keep that resume updated."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3262.104,"endTime":3262.934,"body":"Keep that resume updated."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3262.934,"endTime":3263.424,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3263.624,"endTime":3267.864,"body":"So on that thought, , thanks for staying"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3263.624,"endTime":3267.864,"body":"with us subscribe and like, that's right."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3267.894,"endTime":3270.774,"body":"That's, and let us go On our website,"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3267.894,"endTime":3270.774,"body":"what you'd like us to delve into next."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3270.774,"endTime":3271.164,"body":"Thanks."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3271.214,"endTime":3271.994,"body":"Thanks, Mitch."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3272.114,"endTime":3273.074,"body":"Hugs and kisses."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3273.134,"endTime":3276.609,"body":"He, he said that in his email, so"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3273.134,"endTime":3276.609,"body":"I'm just reciprocating are you sure?"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3276.609,"endTime":3279.609,"body":"I don't, I might have just added that"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3276.609,"endTime":3279.609,"body":"to get you to say hugs and kisses."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3279.789,"endTime":3282.009,"body":"But tha thanks Mitch for your suggestion."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3282.039,"endTime":3286.279,"body":"Uh and, and for anyone else out there"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3282.039,"endTime":3286.279,"body":"you've got the arguing agile.com"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3286.329,"endTime":3287.649,"body":"you've got the form on the website."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3287.649,"endTime":3291.784,"body":"And also like hit us up on LinkedIn"},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3287.649,"endTime":3291.784,"body":"or, or Twitter or wherever."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3291.784,"endTime":3292.264,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"some confusion over the term","startTime":3292.264,"endTime":3293.631,"body":"Where, wherever you can find us."}]}