{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.05,"endTime":1.4,"body":"You fire all the product managers."},{"startTime":1.4,"endTime":3.59,"body":"That's the message that I"},{"startTime":1.4,"endTime":3.59,"body":"saw on LinkedIn recently."},{"startTime":3.78,"endTime":9.843,"body":"Brian Chesky is who is the CEO of Airbnb,"},{"startTime":3.78,"endTime":9.843,"body":"went on Config 2023 as Figma conference."},{"startTime":9.873,"endTime":13.793,"body":"And, he said something along the lines"},{"startTime":9.873,"endTime":13.793,"body":"of, We got rid of all of our product"},{"startTime":13.793,"endTime":17.213,"body":"managers and it got a big applause"},{"startTime":13.793,"endTime":17.213,"body":"from all the designers in the crowd."},{"startTime":17.323,"endTime":21.098,"body":"Since the clickbait has been making its"},{"startTime":17.323,"endTime":21.098,"body":"rounds on LinkedIn, we're gonna actually"},{"startTime":21.103,"endTime":23.008,"body":"watch the source and react to it."},{"startTime":23.012,"endTime":25.352,"body":"It's only 20 something minutes"},{"startTime":23.012,"endTime":25.352,"body":"long, so we should be able to"},{"startTime":25.352,"endTime":26.192,"body":"get through it pretty quick."},{"startTime":26.532,"endTime":30.562,"body":"Om Patel, he covers the teams side and"},{"startTime":26.532,"endTime":30.562,"body":"the enterprise side of the podcast."},{"startTime":30.862,"endTime":31.462,"body":"I'm Brian Orlando."},{"startTime":31.462,"endTime":34.312,"body":"I cover the products and Curtis is back."},{"startTime":34.312,"endTime":35.542,"body":"Hey, welcome back Curtis."},{"startTime":35.542,"endTime":38.545,"body":"Ah, So I've listened to this now a"},{"startTime":35.542,"endTime":38.545,"body":"couple of times since you sent it to me."},{"startTime":38.545,"endTime":38.725,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":38.784,"endTime":41.691,"body":"Just cuz I, I tried to make sure, because"},{"startTime":38.784,"endTime":41.691,"body":"like when you first listened to something"},{"startTime":41.691,"endTime":45.021,"body":"like this, you start peeling back the"},{"startTime":41.691,"endTime":45.021,"body":"layers of like, what did he actually say?"},{"startTime":45.021,"endTime":46.851,"body":"And there's, there's a lot"},{"startTime":45.021,"endTime":46.851,"body":"of good information in there."},{"startTime":47.241,"endTime":49.221,"body":"There's probably some ways"},{"startTime":47.241,"endTime":49.221,"body":"that he probably expressed"},{"startTime":49.221,"endTime":51.711,"body":"it with not the best wording."},{"startTime":51.828,"endTime":57.178,"body":"I, I found myself thinking through what"},{"startTime":51.828,"endTime":57.178,"body":"is their product like, is he referring to"},{"startTime":57.178,"endTime":59.728,"body":"the website that connects host to guests?"},{"startTime":59.728,"endTime":63.118,"body":"Is he talking about the"},{"startTime":59.728,"endTime":63.118,"body":"product of the house itself?"},{"startTime":63.118,"endTime":64.438,"body":"Is he talking about a mobile app?"},{"startTime":64.948,"endTime":67.108,"body":"Because he starts going through and"},{"startTime":64.948,"endTime":67.108,"body":"gonna say product, product, product."},{"startTime":67.108,"endTime":69.028,"body":"But that has never really"},{"startTime":67.108,"endTime":69.028,"body":"established, and that's a, that's"},{"startTime":69.033,"endTime":71.608,"body":"a key point there to establish"},{"startTime":69.033,"endTime":71.608,"body":"when he's talking through design."},{"startTime":71.848,"endTime":73.198,"body":"So just keep that in"},{"startTime":71.848,"endTime":73.198,"body":"the back of your mind."},{"startTime":73.378,"endTime":75.238,"body":"All right, I'm gonna try"},{"startTime":73.378,"endTime":75.238,"body":"to put this over here."},{"startTime":75.388,"endTime":76.948,"body":"And, let's see what we get."},{"startTime":76.961,"endTime":81.161,"body":"Brian is the CEO and co-founder"},{"startTime":76.961,"endTime":81.161,"body":"of Airbnb and I looked at the"},{"startTime":81.161,"endTime":85.001,"body":"entire Fortune 500, all the CEOs."},{"startTime":85.091,"endTime":88.601,"body":"And I believe, correct me if"},{"startTime":85.091,"endTime":88.601,"body":"I'm wrong, that you are the only"},{"startTime":88.601,"endTime":90.251,"body":"designer CEO in the Fortune 500."},{"startTime":90.431,"endTime":92.081,"body":"If there's another one,"},{"startTime":90.431,"endTime":92.081,"body":"I'd love to meet them."},{"startTime":92.27,"endTime":97.022,"body":"You were telling me that at some point"},{"startTime":92.27,"endTime":97.022,"body":"in the company journey, You sat down"},{"startTime":97.262,"endTime":101.087,"body":"and realized, that you were doing"},{"startTime":97.262,"endTime":101.087,"body":"things in a very conventional way."},{"startTime":101.147,"endTime":101.417,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":101.477,"endTime":103.187,"body":"Despite your design training."},{"startTime":103.287,"endTime":107.79,"body":"I went to the Rhode Island school design"},{"startTime":103.287,"endTime":107.79,"body":"with, one of my co-founders, Joe Gebbia."},{"startTime":107.848,"endTime":112.104,"body":"And, it was kind of crazy the idea"},{"startTime":107.848,"endTime":112.104,"body":"that a founding team would have"},{"startTime":112.104,"endTime":113.604,"body":"two designers and one engineer."},{"startTime":113.994,"endTime":117.234,"body":"It was so crazy that I remember"},{"startTime":113.994,"endTime":117.234,"body":"when we pitched one of our first"},{"startTime":117.234,"endTime":120.234,"body":"investors, he said, we love"},{"startTime":117.234,"endTime":120.234,"body":"everything but you and your idea."},{"startTime":120.238,"endTime":123.755,"body":"Just to initial reaction first"},{"startTime":120.238,"endTime":123.755,"body":"is like He said, he says, I'm"},{"startTime":123.755,"endTime":125.195,"body":"the only designer that's a ceo."},{"startTime":125.228,"endTime":126.428,"body":"I don't know if that's accurate."},{"startTime":126.578,"endTime":129.368,"body":"Design thinker, he's the"},{"startTime":126.578,"endTime":129.368,"body":"only trained designer."},{"startTime":129.518,"endTime":130.178,"body":"He went to risd."},{"startTime":130.183,"endTime":130.658,"body":"He did."},{"startTime":130.769,"endTime":133.086,"body":"But anybody can be a design thinker."},{"startTime":133.216,"endTime":135.436,"body":"Other CEOs could think"},{"startTime":133.216,"endTime":135.436,"body":"like a designer as well."},{"startTime":135.436,"endTime":138.676,"body":"He's a design thinker and I think"},{"startTime":135.436,"endTime":138.676,"body":"one, one of the characteristics"},{"startTime":138.676,"endTime":141.526,"body":"there is he is user obsessed."},{"startTime":141.526,"endTime":143.056,"body":"I think that's a common term."},{"startTime":143.266,"endTime":144.856,"body":"So he's, he's obsessed with his user."},{"startTime":144.916,"endTime":147.826,"body":"His design is focused around the end user."},{"startTime":147.886,"endTime":148.096,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":148.546,"endTime":151.726,"body":"That's something that's not"},{"startTime":148.546,"endTime":151.726,"body":"often seen, at least not anymore."},{"startTime":151.731,"endTime":155.026,"body":"It, it used to be, it, it's"},{"startTime":151.731,"endTime":155.026,"body":"more so to make the people"},{"startTime":155.031,"endTime":156.016,"body":"who write the checks happy."},{"startTime":156.076,"endTime":157.996,"body":"I think so, yeah."},{"startTime":158.051,"endTime":158.771,"body":"So he is a designer."},{"startTime":158.831,"endTime":160.301,"body":"I mean, what kind of designers?"},{"startTime":160.301,"endTime":161.591,"body":"Different than what I would've thought."},{"startTime":161.651,"endTime":161.891,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":162.191,"endTime":165.941,"body":"I would've guessed, like back then I,"},{"startTime":162.191,"endTime":165.941,"body":"that was probably like when Interactive"},{"startTime":165.941,"endTime":169.301,"body":"Design came on the set, and then"},{"startTime":165.941,"endTime":169.301,"body":"it was later called User Experience"},{"startTime":169.301,"endTime":170.921,"body":"Designer, but Industrial design."},{"startTime":170.921,"endTime":171.131,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":171.161,"endTime":172.751,"body":"I wasn't expecting an industrial designer."},{"startTime":172.751,"endTime":172.811,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":172.816,"endTime":174.551,"body":"So he, he's training in industrial design."},{"startTime":174.551,"endTime":174.821,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":174.911,"endTime":175.151,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":175.277,"endTime":175.577,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":175.727,"endTime":177.437,"body":"I don't know how we're gonna cut"},{"startTime":175.727,"endTime":177.437,"body":"this together, but here we go."},{"startTime":177.497,"endTime":178.787,"body":"I'm, I'm going back in"},{"startTime":179.247,"endTime":182.097,"body":"I remember when we pitched one of"},{"startTime":179.247,"endTime":182.097,"body":"our first investors, he said, we love"},{"startTime":182.097,"endTime":183.597,"body":"everything but you and your idea."},{"startTime":183.897,"endTime":187.227,"body":"And one of the things they managed"},{"startTime":183.897,"endTime":187.227,"body":"strangers will never sleep,"},{"startTime":187.317,"endTime":190.047,"body":"save with other strangers and"},{"startTime":187.317,"endTime":190.047,"body":"designers don't start companies."},{"startTime":190.827,"endTime":195.927,"body":"And at RISD in the year 2000, when I"},{"startTime":190.827,"endTime":195.927,"body":"was there, I studied industrial design"},{"startTime":196.557,"endTime":200.847,"body":"and there was this whole mantra, how"},{"startTime":196.557,"endTime":200.847,"body":"do you get design in the boardroom?"},{"startTime":201.927,"endTime":204.207,"body":"And Joe and I, maybe we"},{"startTime":201.927,"endTime":204.207,"body":"didn't know any better."},{"startTime":204.717,"endTime":206.697,"body":"We thought, what if design"},{"startTime":204.717,"endTime":206.697,"body":"just ran the boardroom?"},{"startTime":207.567,"endTime":210.087,"body":"And that was the whole"},{"startTime":207.567,"endTime":210.087,"body":"premise behind Airbnb."},{"startTime":210.657,"endTime":213.267,"body":"And so we had these magical ideas"},{"startTime":210.657,"endTime":213.267,"body":"of what Airbnb could become."},{"startTime":213.837,"endTime":217.797,"body":"And for a moment, for a while, I felt"},{"startTime":213.837,"endTime":217.797,"body":"like it was really special and magical."},{"startTime":218.457,"endTime":224.517,"body":"And then 10 years later, it's now"},{"startTime":218.457,"endTime":224.517,"body":"2019 and I wake up one day and I have"},{"startTime":224.517,"endTime":225.987,"body":"this, I have this horrible dream."},{"startTime":226.377,"endTime":228.867,"body":"And the dream is, is as if"},{"startTime":226.377,"endTime":228.867,"body":"I've been gone for 10 years."},{"startTime":229.377,"endTime":233.007,"body":"I come back to the company and"},{"startTime":229.377,"endTime":233.007,"body":"it's unrecognizable, and I said,"},{"startTime":233.007,"endTime":236.307,"body":"that dream that we had that"},{"startTime":233.007,"endTime":236.307,"body":"company, that would be magical."},{"startTime":236.307,"endTime":239.937,"body":"That was like an amazing product people"},{"startTime":236.307,"endTime":239.937,"body":"loved that we were starting to lose it."},{"startTime":239.937,"endTime":240.962,"body":"It was starting to wear out."},{"startTime":241.125,"endTime":247.125,"body":"I basically was a designer and I kind"},{"startTime":241.125,"endTime":247.125,"body":"of noticed there's two types of people."},{"startTime":247.13,"endTime":248.745,"body":"And companies never become CEOs."},{"startTime":248.805,"endTime":250.575,"body":"Engineers become CEOs of Silicon Valley."},{"startTime":250.815,"endTime":254.595,"body":"Marketers become CFOs, finance people"},{"startTime":250.815,"endTime":254.595,"body":"become CEOs, operators become CEOs."},{"startTime":254.985,"endTime":258.675,"body":"But the two people that never run"},{"startTime":254.985,"endTime":258.675,"body":"companies are designers and head of hr."},{"startTime":258.975,"endTime":259.795,"body":"And I start, whoa, whoa."},{"startTime":259.875,"endTime":261.495,"body":"Let me stop you right there, right quick."},{"startTime":261.705,"endTime":263.115,"body":"I, cause I have a testing background."},{"startTime":263.12,"endTime":266.715,"body":"I've tried testers like the Yeah,"},{"startTime":263.12,"endTime":266.715,"body":"you don't see them up there either."},{"startTime":267.18,"endTime":272.495,"body":"So like the, the purpose of the whole"},{"startTime":267.18,"endTime":272.495,"body":"story that we just listed, is, to, to"},{"startTime":272.495,"endTime":275.635,"body":"get us to the point where he's saying,"},{"startTime":272.495,"endTime":275.635,"body":"I created the company and it was a"},{"startTime":275.64,"endTime":277.345,"body":"beautiful thing and we cared about design."},{"startTime":277.35,"endTime":280.195,"body":"And design was, had a big"},{"startTime":277.35,"endTime":280.195,"body":"stake in the boardroom."},{"startTime":280.255,"endTime":284.095,"body":"And then we grew and then, like I"},{"startTime":280.255,"endTime":284.095,"body":"didn't recognize the company anymore"},{"startTime":284.545,"endTime":288.7,"body":"so one thing I don't understand"},{"startTime":284.545,"endTime":288.7,"body":"is why 10 years later, he"},{"startTime":288.7,"endTime":289.84,"body":"couldn't recognize company."},{"startTime":289.84,"endTime":290.29,"body":"It's not looking."},{"startTime":290.29,"endTime":291.49,"body":"He went win and came back."},{"startTime":291.55,"endTime":293.89,"body":"Like, why they let that happen?"},{"startTime":293.89,"endTime":297.29,"body":"Well I, I have an immediate"},{"startTime":293.89,"endTime":297.29,"body":"like idea in my head, which is,"},{"startTime":297.92,"endTime":301.855,"body":"Extreme Ownership, a Jocko"},{"startTime":297.92,"endTime":301.855,"body":"Willink book, it was a great book."},{"startTime":301.885,"endTime":302.935,"body":"This is the military guy, right?"},{"startTime":302.94,"endTime":303.115,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":303.115,"endTime":303.485,"body":"Who wrote the book?"},{"startTime":303.485,"endTime":304.765,"body":"Yeah he was a Navy Seal."},{"startTime":304.815,"endTime":309.775,"body":"In the book, he says, there's so"},{"startTime":304.815,"endTime":309.775,"body":"many people that when they're in"},{"startTime":309.775,"endTime":312.602,"body":"command, they've gotta, they feel"},{"startTime":309.775,"endTime":312.602,"body":"like they gotta get in and micromanage"},{"startTime":312.602,"endTime":314.432,"body":"and get real close to the issue."},{"startTime":314.582,"endTime":318.452,"body":"But, if you are real close"},{"startTime":314.582,"endTime":318.452,"body":"to the issue, you can't see"},{"startTime":318.457,"endTime":319.772,"body":"what's happening from far away."},{"startTime":320.132,"endTime":323.912,"body":"Sometimes you need to back away from"},{"startTime":320.132,"endTime":323.912,"body":"the problem, like far away from the"},{"startTime":323.912,"endTime":327.642,"body":"problem to get an overview of the"},{"startTime":323.912,"endTime":327.642,"body":"entire situation so you can make a"},{"startTime":327.642,"endTime":332.502,"body":"better decision because nobody consumed"},{"startTime":327.642,"endTime":332.502,"body":"with dealing with the problem can see"},{"startTime":332.832,"endTime":336.492,"body":"the whole system and that like I, I"},{"startTime":332.832,"endTime":336.492,"body":"know I, I'm, I'm cutting us ahead like"},{"startTime":336.492,"endTime":338.052,"body":"way, way, way ahead in this podcast."},{"startTime":338.332,"endTime":342.112,"body":"Cuz he's, what he's about to say is,"},{"startTime":338.332,"endTime":342.112,"body":"Hey, we got in, we started developing"},{"startTime":342.112,"endTime":344.902,"body":"the software and we went in with"},{"startTime":342.112,"endTime":344.902,"body":"this design-centric approach and"},{"startTime":344.902,"endTime":348.447,"body":"there was a couple of us and we when"},{"startTime":344.902,"endTime":348.447,"body":"we were all entrepreneurial that,"},{"startTime":348.477,"endTime":349.497,"body":"that's a, that's a term, right?"},{"startTime":349.502,"endTime":350.157,"body":"Entrepreneurial."},{"startTime":350.217,"endTime":352.707,"body":"Yeah, that's, basically you can"},{"startTime":350.217,"endTime":352.707,"body":"get everybody that's involved"},{"startTime":352.712,"endTime":355.707,"body":"in the company and the software"},{"startTime":352.712,"endTime":355.707,"body":"into a room and talk about it."},{"startTime":356.027,"endTime":359.067,"body":"And, and over time we grew to a point"},{"startTime":356.027,"endTime":359.067,"body":"where you can't do that anymore."},{"startTime":359.277,"endTime":361.227,"body":"And now nobody has a good."},{"startTime":361.527,"endTime":362.787,"body":"View of the whole thing."},{"startTime":363.057,"endTime":363.177,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":363.227,"endTime":365.687,"body":"I don't know how he is cuz I haven't"},{"startTime":363.227,"endTime":365.687,"body":"really dug into his background,"},{"startTime":365.687,"endTime":368.447,"body":"but especially if the founders"},{"startTime":365.687,"endTime":368.447,"body":"are the type of people that are"},{"startTime":368.447,"endTime":370.727,"body":"like, Hey, we set the roadmap."},{"startTime":371.267,"endTime":376.537,"body":"We, you, you come to me when you wanna put"},{"startTime":371.267,"endTime":376.537,"body":"something new on the roadmap, only I can"},{"startTime":376.537,"endTime":378.067,"body":"tell you the vision of the application."},{"startTime":378.547,"endTime":378.907,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":378.907,"endTime":382.417,"body":"And the, the, the, the feature"},{"startTime":378.907,"endTime":382.417,"body":"factory PMs, like the feature factory"},{"startTime":382.417,"endTime":384.907,"body":"product managers who are like,"},{"startTime":382.417,"endTime":384.907,"body":"well I don't really, I don't do a"},{"startTime":384.907,"endTime":388.717,"body":"strategy, I don't do a marketing and"},{"startTime":384.907,"endTime":388.717,"body":"pricing like the CEO just tells me."},{"startTime":389.557,"endTime":389.797,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":389.977,"endTime":392.617,"body":"Especially if you're that kind of"},{"startTime":389.977,"endTime":392.617,"body":"company, middle man, then there's"},{"startTime":392.617,"endTime":394.117,"body":"that kind of interplay going on."},{"startTime":394.197,"endTime":396.927,"body":"You said something, how"},{"startTime":394.197,"endTime":396.927,"body":"did he not recognize?"},{"startTime":396.927,"endTime":400.557,"body":"I think at least the way that I"},{"startTime":396.927,"endTime":400.557,"body":"read into it is, is almost like,"},{"startTime":401.337,"endTime":405.597,"body":"you get a new puppy or you have"},{"startTime":401.337,"endTime":405.597,"body":"a child and now the child's 10."},{"startTime":405.897,"endTime":406.617,"body":"There's a second."},{"startTime":406.617,"endTime":410.292,"body":"When you've been on work where you've"},{"startTime":406.617,"endTime":410.292,"body":"just taken a step back and say, How,"},{"startTime":410.292,"endTime":411.912,"body":"how in the heck did we get here?"},{"startTime":412.092,"endTime":415.242,"body":"And I think that he's been so close to"},{"startTime":412.092,"endTime":415.242,"body":"it for so long and he's so used to it."},{"startTime":415.242,"endTime":418.522,"body":"The gradual changes over time that have"},{"startTime":415.242,"endTime":418.522,"body":"taken him so far off the path mm-hmm."},{"startTime":418.607,"endTime":420.762,"body":"Is probably how he got blinded by it."},{"startTime":421.242,"endTime":424.032,"body":"The good thing is, is he recognized it,"},{"startTime":421.242,"endTime":424.032,"body":"but some companies never recognized it."},{"startTime":424.032,"endTime":425.082,"body":"He got blinded to it."},{"startTime":425.232,"endTime":425.682,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":425.682,"endTime":426.162,"body":"He, he, sorry."},{"startTime":426.162,"endTime":426.642,"body":"Yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":426.822,"endTime":427.722,"body":"He got blind to he, he got blind to it."},{"startTime":427.942,"endTime":432.192,"body":"And I think that once he removed"},{"startTime":427.942,"endTime":432.192,"body":"himself and looked at and he goes,"},{"startTime":432.192,"endTime":435.132,"body":"oh my gosh, how, how did we get here?"},{"startTime":435.132,"endTime":437.472,"body":"And that's how you can,"},{"startTime":435.132,"endTime":437.472,"body":"it can easily just Yeah."},{"startTime":437.472,"endTime":440.232,"body":"Like that get right"},{"startTime":437.472,"endTime":440.232,"body":"away from you and Yeah."},{"startTime":440.232,"endTime":441.672,"body":"Maybe, maybe you need to take a step back."},{"startTime":441.672,"endTime":443.112,"body":"That's probably what opened him up."},{"startTime":443.862,"endTime":444.042,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":444.047,"endTime":444.612,"body":"I get that."},{"startTime":444.672,"endTime":448.102,"body":"I mean, one of the things that happened"},{"startTime":444.672,"endTime":448.102,"body":"in this particular industry is in those"},{"startTime":448.102,"endTime":450.322,"body":"10 years he encountered competition."},{"startTime":450.322,"endTime":452.872,"body":"He didn't have much competition"},{"startTime":450.322,"endTime":452.872,"body":"when he came out with the, the"},{"startTime":452.872,"endTime":454.822,"body":"concept of Airbnb at the beginning."},{"startTime":454.882,"endTime":455.092,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":455.332,"endTime":455.333,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":455.407,"endTime":459.972,"body":"But towards 2019 you had these"},{"startTime":455.407,"endTime":459.972,"body":"other companies that sprung up,"},{"startTime":460.002,"endTime":461.352,"body":"VRBO and all these other ones."},{"startTime":461.352,"endTime":461.412,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":461.442,"endTime":462.372,"body":"Especially overseas."},{"startTime":462.942,"endTime":466.062,"body":"So I guess, a savvy CEO"},{"startTime":462.942,"endTime":466.062,"body":"would have to take notice."},{"startTime":466.512,"endTime":466.722,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":467.682,"endTime":468.822,"body":"All right, let's, let's move on."},{"startTime":468.982,"endTime":473.158,"body":"Yeah, I was gonna say, let, let's, let's"},{"startTime":468.982,"endTime":473.158,"body":"kick back to started thinking why is this?"},{"startTime":473.475,"endTime":477.915,"body":"And I think it's cuz design in some"},{"startTime":473.475,"endTime":477.915,"body":"ways is fragile because companies"},{"startTime":477.915,"endTime":482.175,"body":"are organized around the scientific"},{"startTime":477.915,"endTime":482.175,"body":"method and the creative process"},{"startTime":482.235,"endTime":484.575,"body":"is something that requires nerve."},{"startTime":484.845,"endTime":489.015,"body":"And over the years I started losing my"},{"startTime":484.845,"endTime":489.015,"body":"nerve and I brought in a lot of people"},{"startTime":489.015,"endTime":493.545,"body":"from a lot of different companies and they"},{"startTime":489.015,"endTime":493.545,"body":"brought their way of working towards us."},{"startTime":493.905,"endTime":494.625,"body":"So what do we do?"},{"startTime":495.075,"endTime":497.955,"body":"We had divisional, we basically"},{"startTime":495.075,"endTime":497.955,"body":"divisionalized, so we had"},{"startTime":497.955,"endTime":499.365,"body":"like 10 different divisions."},{"startTime":499.605,"endTime":501.375,"body":"They had like 10 different subdivisions."},{"startTime":501.645,"endTime":503.895,"body":"We were very much run by product managers."},{"startTime":504.645,"endTime":507.555,"body":"We had a plethora of AB experiments."},{"startTime":507.915,"endTime":513.585,"body":"And the thing I started noticing is"},{"startTime":507.915,"endTime":513.585,"body":"the more, people we added, the more"},{"startTime":513.59,"endTime":517.935,"body":"project we pursued, the less our app"},{"startTime":513.59,"endTime":517.935,"body":"changed and the more the cost went up."},{"startTime":518.025,"endTime":519.015,"body":"And I didn't know what to do."},{"startTime":519.69,"endTime":521.28,"body":"It's now late 2019."},{"startTime":521.46,"endTime":523.05,"body":"And they're like, well,"},{"startTime":521.46,"endTime":523.05,"body":"what are you gonna do?"},{"startTime":523.05,"endTime":525.125,"body":"And I said, well, I don't know,"},{"startTime":523.05,"endTime":525.125,"body":"because we're about to go public."},{"startTime":525.18,"endTime":529.05,"body":"And blowing up the company"},{"startTime":525.18,"endTime":529.05,"body":"before you're like ready to go"},{"startTime":529.055,"endTime":530.25,"body":"public is kind of a bad time."},{"startTime":530.403,"endTime":534.98,"body":"So I go back, home for the holidays"},{"startTime":530.403,"endTime":534.98,"body":"days, and it's now early 2020."},{"startTime":535.187,"endTime":536.477,"body":"We're preparing to go public."},{"startTime":536.67,"endTime":540.4,"body":"And I actually, it's right before 2020,"},{"startTime":536.67,"endTime":540.4,"body":"I meet two people that changed my life."},{"startTime":540.607,"endTime":544.187,"body":"Before he digs into this, what he"},{"startTime":540.607,"endTime":544.187,"body":"just pointed out was the company was"},{"startTime":544.187,"endTime":546.437,"body":"growing, we hired a bunch of people."},{"startTime":546.497,"endTime":549.197,"body":"They brought their way of work, like"},{"startTime":546.497,"endTime":549.197,"body":"his words, they brought their way of"},{"startTime":549.197,"endTime":551.297,"body":"work, meaning they changed the culture."},{"startTime":551.477,"endTime":554.657,"body":"Every hire that we brought in"},{"startTime":551.477,"endTime":554.657,"body":"changed the culture slightly."},{"startTime":554.837,"endTime":556.097,"body":"The culture started changing."},{"startTime":556.247,"endTime":558.622,"body":"And now we've got all these"},{"startTime":556.247,"endTime":558.622,"body":"divisions, all these basically"},{"startTime":558.622,"endTime":560.002,"body":"silos throughout the organization."},{"startTime":560.092,"endTime":562.462,"body":"And the product managers"},{"startTime":560.092,"endTime":562.462,"body":"jump from silo to silo."},{"startTime":562.732,"endTime":566.872,"body":"And, now he comes back and he"},{"startTime":562.732,"endTime":566.872,"body":"realizes like he doesn't like that."},{"startTime":567.382,"endTime":569.272,"body":"He doesn't like that culture,"},{"startTime":567.382,"endTime":569.272,"body":"he doesn't like that division."},{"startTime":569.272,"endTime":572.912,"body":"He doesn't he's setting"},{"startTime":569.272,"endTime":572.912,"body":"himself up for a CEO level."},{"startTime":573.092,"endTime":573.992,"body":"Culture."},{"startTime":574.052,"endTime":579.272,"body":"Slam dunk of talk is, is the way I was"},{"startTime":574.052,"endTime":579.272,"body":"feeling at the early part of this talk."},{"startTime":579.542,"endTime":582.562,"body":"I was like, uhoh,  preach about why"},{"startTime":579.542,"endTime":582.562,"body":"not to have silos and why not to have"},{"startTime":582.562,"endTime":585.022,"body":"all the people over here and all the"},{"startTime":582.562,"endTime":585.022,"body":"people and all the requirements over"},{"startTime":585.022,"endTime":586.282,"body":"there and all the testing over there."},{"startTime":586.282,"endTime":588.292,"body":"Like, come on man, here we go."},{"startTime":588.712,"endTime":589.492,"body":"I got really excited."},{"startTime":589.492,"endTime":592.972,"body":"See, that's actually going to,"},{"startTime":589.492,"endTime":592.972,"body":"transpire in this conversation."},{"startTime":593.027,"endTime":593.447,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":593.447,"endTime":596.837,"body":"Well, well, what I, what I, what"},{"startTime":593.447,"endTime":596.837,"body":"I liked about it was, you, you"},{"startTime":596.867,"endTime":597.917,"body":"started to go down that path."},{"startTime":597.917,"endTime":598.787,"body":"I thought you were gonna say it."},{"startTime":598.792,"endTime":601.937,"body":"It was, he goes, one day there was"},{"startTime":598.792,"endTime":601.937,"body":"all these divisions and everything."},{"startTime":601.937,"endTime":604.853,"body":"It's like they didn't come in off"},{"startTime":601.937,"endTime":604.853,"body":"the street and make that decision."},{"startTime":604.853,"endTime":607.463,"body":"You made that decision and then"},{"startTime":604.853,"endTime":607.463,"body":"you put someone in that, right?"},{"startTime":607.613,"endTime":611.708,"body":"So, Is it really the outside people"},{"startTime":607.613,"endTime":611.708,"body":"there, or did we kind of maybe"},{"startTime":612.248,"endTime":613.658,"body":"change somebody along the lines?"},{"startTime":613.663,"endTime":616.958,"body":"Maybe not him, but somebody else"},{"startTime":613.663,"endTime":616.958,"body":"that he had hired before you to make"},{"startTime":616.958,"endTime":620.318,"body":"said decisions did make that decision"},{"startTime":616.958,"endTime":620.318,"body":"right, or your other better Half"},{"startTime":620.323,"endTime":622.508,"body":"made that decision and somebody did."},{"startTime":622.508,"endTime":624.188,"body":"It wasn't the people, it"},{"startTime":622.508,"endTime":624.188,"body":"wasn't the product managers."},{"startTime":624.193,"endTime":625.028,"body":"It's not their fault."},{"startTime":625.128,"endTime":628.488,"body":"I know we have a podcast about like, hey,"},{"startTime":625.128,"endTime":628.488,"body":"at that point when you're experiencing"},{"startTime":628.488,"endTime":631.668,"body":"pain, maybe a  somebody with the"},{"startTime":628.488,"endTime":631.668,"body":"agile coaching experience can kind of"},{"startTime":631.668,"endTime":634.728,"body":"help you say, Hey, look, if you wanna"},{"startTime":631.668,"endTime":634.728,"body":"keep that small company feel, if you"},{"startTime":634.728,"endTime":639.138,"body":"wanna keep that, that everyone working"},{"startTime":634.728,"endTime":639.138,"body":"together, customer-centric, customer"},{"startTime":639.143,"endTime":642.768,"body":"focused, feel, and figure out how to"},{"startTime":639.143,"endTime":642.768,"body":"scale from there, how to scale, quote,"},{"startTime":642.768,"endTime":646.948,"body":"scale without scaling, without oh,"},{"startTime":642.768,"endTime":646.948,"body":"here's the pyramid and all these people"},{"startTime":646.948,"endTime":650.663,"body":"are working for that, and all these"},{"startTime":646.948,"endTime":650.663,"body":"resources are working for the whatever."},{"startTime":650.963,"endTime":653.663,"body":"Like, maybe you bring somebody"},{"startTime":650.963,"endTime":653.663,"body":"in who knows how to do that"},{"startTime":653.668,"endTime":655.353,"body":"and I mean, would they do that?"},{"startTime":655.353,"endTime":655.743,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":655.773,"endTime":657.933,"body":"You know, I, I don't know if"},{"startTime":655.773,"endTime":657.933,"body":"they would ever be open to that,"},{"startTime":658.173,"endTime":660.213,"body":"but let's, let's keep going."},{"startTime":660.293,"endTime":662.543,"body":"Let's, moving on, moving on."},{"startTime":662.643,"endTime":665.373,"body":"The first person I meet is"},{"startTime":662.643,"endTime":665.373,"body":"a guy named Hiroki Asai."},{"startTime":666.243,"endTime":670.293,"body":"Hiroki Asai was the creative director at"},{"startTime":666.243,"endTime":670.293,"body":"Apple and he reported Steve Jobs and he"},{"startTime":670.293,"endTime":673.983,"body":"worked at Apple from like 1998 to 2016."},{"startTime":674.073,"endTime":674.283,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":674.763,"endTime":678.123,"body":"And the second person I already knew,"},{"startTime":674.763,"endTime":678.123,"body":"but I got reacquainted, was Johnny ive"},{"startTime":678.453,"endTime":680.133,"body":"and Johnny, ive ran design of Apple."},{"startTime":680.703,"endTime":685.983,"body":"And at that moment I kind of forgot"},{"startTime":680.703,"endTime":685.983,"body":"about the magic of this design"},{"startTime":685.983,"endTime":687.453,"body":"renaissance that Steve Jobs had."},{"startTime":687.813,"endTime":691.833,"body":"And they described this company to me"},{"startTime":687.813,"endTime":691.833,"body":"and the way of running a company with"},{"startTime":691.833,"endTime":695.253,"body":"a design at the center where like it"},{"startTime":691.833,"endTime":695.253,"body":"was a totally different way of running"},{"startTime":695.253,"endTime":697.053,"body":"a company than everything I was taught."},{"startTime":697.353,"endTime":702.033,"body":"Everything I was taught about how you run"},{"startTime":697.353,"endTime":702.033,"body":"a company was opposite of what Steve Jobs"},{"startTime":702.038,"endTime":703.833,"body":"and Johnny Ive and Hiroki did at Apple."},{"startTime":704.643,"endTime":707.223,"body":"So I hired Hiroki, Johnny had this firm."},{"startTime":707.223,"endTime":709.353,"body":"We brought him on, we became"},{"startTime":707.223,"endTime":709.353,"body":"our number one client."},{"startTime":709.893,"endTime":712.953,"body":"And now I have this idea there's"},{"startTime":709.893,"endTime":712.953,"body":"maybe a better right around company,"},{"startTime":713.643,"endTime":714.453,"body":"but there's still a problem."},{"startTime":714.453,"endTime":715.293,"body":"We're gonna go public."},{"startTime":715.863,"endTime":716.553,"body":"So what do we do?"},{"startTime":717.543,"endTime":722.203,"body":"All of a sudden, I remember our"},{"startTime":717.543,"endTime":722.203,"body":"business drops 80% in China."},{"startTime":722.763,"endTime":727.353,"body":"It's January, 2020, and there was"},{"startTime":722.763,"endTime":727.353,"body":"this thing that no one in the United"},{"startTime":727.353,"endTime":728.703,"body":"States was talking about called Covid."},{"startTime":729.153,"endTime":731.823,"body":"And I remember thinking, wow,"},{"startTime":729.153,"endTime":731.823,"body":"if this thing spread beyond"},{"startTime":731.823,"endTime":733.203,"body":"China, it'd be really bad."},{"startTime":733.503,"endTime":737.193,"body":"Within eight weeks we"},{"startTime":733.503,"endTime":737.193,"body":"lost 80% of our business."},{"startTime":737.823,"endTime":741.183,"body":"And at that moment, I remember thinking"},{"startTime":737.823,"endTime":741.183,"body":"to myself, I don't know what's gonna"},{"startTime":741.188,"endTime":744.783,"body":"happen if we can save the company, but"},{"startTime":741.188,"endTime":744.783,"body":"how do I want to be remembered if this"},{"startTime":744.783,"endTime":748.668,"body":"Airbnb's like a burning house, and I can"},{"startTime":744.783,"endTime":748.668,"body":"only take half the things outta the house."},{"startTime":748.878,"endTime":749.898,"body":"What do I take with me?"},{"startTime":750.048,"endTime":751.608,"body":"It suddenly was really clarifying."},{"startTime":751.608,"endTime":751.968,"body":"Make this part."},{"startTime":752.208,"endTime":753.408,"body":"And another thing happened."},{"startTime":754.038,"endTime":758.058,"body":"I realized that for 10 years I was"},{"startTime":754.038,"endTime":758.058,"body":"apologizing about how I wanted to run"},{"startTime":758.058,"endTime":762.258,"body":"the company because how I really wanted"},{"startTime":758.058,"endTime":762.258,"body":"to run the company was as a designer,"},{"startTime":762.558,"endTime":763.908,"body":"but I just didn't have the nerve."},{"startTime":764.178,"endTime":767.748,"body":"But the moment, like it was a"},{"startTime":764.178,"endTime":767.748,"body":"crucible moment, we did that."},{"startTime":767.928,"endTime":768.708,"body":"So what do we do?"},{"startTime":768.978,"endTime":770.928,"body":"We rebuilt the company from the ground up."},{"startTime":770.958,"endTime":774.468,"body":"We went from business unit organization"},{"startTime":770.958,"endTime":774.468,"body":"to a functional organization."},{"startTime":774.558,"endTime":777.378,"body":"So we had a design department, a marketing"},{"startTime":774.558,"endTime":777.378,"body":"department, engineering department."},{"startTime":777.618,"endTime":781.368,"body":"The way every startup is run, we"},{"startTime":777.618,"endTime":781.368,"body":"took all the projects in the company."},{"startTime":781.518,"endTime":783.648,"body":"First of all, I asked every"},{"startTime":781.518,"endTime":783.648,"body":"leader, show me your roadmap."},{"startTime":783.828,"endTime":786.378,"body":"They couldn't even figure out"},{"startTime":783.828,"endTime":786.378,"body":"their roadmaps cuz everyone"},{"startTime":786.378,"endTime":788.058,"body":"had a sub roadmap on subteams."},{"startTime":788.148,"endTime":790.698,"body":"And those teams had roadmaps"},{"startTime":788.148,"endTime":790.698,"body":"and those teams had roadmaps."},{"startTime":790.788,"endTime":792.018,"body":"And so I said, there's a simple rule."},{"startTime":792.018,"endTime":795.588,"body":"If it's not on the roadmap, it can't"},{"startTime":792.018,"endTime":795.588,"body":"ship and it must be on one roadmap."},{"startTime":795.678,"endTime":798.768,"body":"So with this giant exercise, we put"},{"startTime":795.678,"endTime":798.768,"body":"every single thing on one roadmap."},{"startTime":799.318,"endTime":801.198,"body":"I feel like I should stop"},{"startTime":799.318,"endTime":801.198,"body":"here because i's plenty there."},{"startTime":801.203,"endTime":803.308,"body":"Like, it's, it's time for radical changes."},{"startTime":803.318,"endTime":804.428,"body":"He detects a problem."},{"startTime":804.788,"endTime":808.058,"body":"It just so happens that coincides with"},{"startTime":804.788,"endTime":808.058,"body":"like when the company's in real trouble."},{"startTime":808.118,"endTime":808.268,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":808.358,"endTime":808.748,"body":"Covid."},{"startTime":808.798,"endTime":813.508,"body":"It's a great example because most"},{"startTime":808.798,"endTime":813.508,"body":"companies don't get this level of"},{"startTime":813.513,"endTime":818.128,"body":"like, let's laser focus until they"},{"startTime":813.513,"endTime":818.128,"body":"get into real trouble like this."},{"startTime":818.288,"endTime":822.608,"body":"Most companies, have a long"},{"startTime":818.288,"endTime":822.608,"body":"tail of drawing down over time,"},{"startTime":822.608,"endTime":826.888,"body":"as kind of like the, the, the"},{"startTime":822.608,"endTime":826.888,"body":"incompetence and poor leadership"},{"startTime":826.888,"endTime":828.498,"body":"and management kind of run awry."},{"startTime":828.498,"endTime":832.188,"body":"So kind of like just degrades the"},{"startTime":828.498,"endTime":832.188,"body":"business over time and it's, it's such a"},{"startTime":832.188,"endTime":834.648,"body":"slow death march that you don't notice."},{"startTime":835.218,"endTime":840.398,"body":"This happened so quick, he knew I needed"},{"startTime":835.218,"endTime":840.398,"body":"to respond now and, reforge the business"},{"startTime":840.398,"endTime":842.018,"body":"the way that I would like to run it."},{"startTime":842.078,"endTime":844.448,"body":"And, and, and that's everything"},{"startTime":842.078,"endTime":844.448,"body":"he's talking about now is like,"},{"startTime":844.688,"endTime":846.068,"body":"what, how, what are we doing?"},{"startTime":846.068,"endTime":847.208,"body":"And, and how are we doing it?"},{"startTime":847.358,"endTime":848.468,"body":"What are our priorities?"},{"startTime":848.678,"endTime":850.988,"body":"And how come I can't see"},{"startTime":848.678,"endTime":850.988,"body":"them all in one place?"},{"startTime":851.468,"endTime":853.838,"body":"Like I can only imagine like"},{"startTime":851.468,"endTime":853.838,"body":"department heads having their"},{"startTime":853.838,"endTime":855.458,"body":"own roadmaps, oh my goodness."},{"startTime":855.458,"endTime":857.618,"body":"Like, and it's departmentalized."},{"startTime":857.623,"endTime":859.988,"body":"It's not product, it's"},{"startTime":857.623,"endTime":859.988,"body":"not product roadmaps."},{"startTime":859.993,"endTime":860.078,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":860.078,"endTime":861.128,"body":"There is roadmaps."},{"startTime":861.128,"endTime":861.458,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":861.788,"endTime":863.888,"body":"So that's what's crazy."},{"startTime":863.888,"endTime":867.668,"body":"It's like we're gonna put it all in one"},{"startTime":863.888,"endTime":867.668,"body":"because I'm, I'm, I'm fairly certain may"},{"startTime":867.698,"endTime":872.738,"body":"you could argue mobile app versus website,"},{"startTime":867.698,"endTime":872.738,"body":"but the Airbnb product is the platform"},{"startTime":872.738,"endTime":875.168,"body":"itself that connects guests to host and."},{"startTime":875.723,"endTime":878.903,"body":"Is, and my question is, I"},{"startTime":875.723,"endTime":878.903,"body":"don't use Airbnb enough."},{"startTime":878.903,"endTime":881.333,"body":"Is there another product"},{"startTime":878.903,"endTime":881.333,"body":"there or is that the product?"},{"startTime":881.433,"endTime":883.683,"body":"They have different offerings,"},{"startTime":881.433,"endTime":883.683,"body":"but that is the product."},{"startTime":883.743,"endTime":884.703,"body":"So it's one roadmap."},{"startTime":884.733,"endTime":887.853,"body":"It's it can be, it can be one roadmap"},{"startTime":884.733,"endTime":887.853,"body":"and at least they understood it."},{"startTime":887.853,"endTime":888.183,"body":"They, yeah."},{"startTime":888.313,"endTime":892.425,"body":"Flip side of that is, the risk"},{"startTime":888.313,"endTime":892.425,"body":"of having one product, right."},{"startTime":892.765,"endTime":893.805,"body":"All your eggs one basket."},{"startTime":893.805,"endTime":894.225,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":894.595,"endTime":894.795,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":894.795,"endTime":894.915,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":894.92,"endTime":897.945,"body":"So when the economy tanks, or heaven"},{"startTime":894.92,"endTime":897.945,"body":"forbid we have a pandemic Yeah."},{"startTime":898.215,"endTime":901.245,"body":"That impacts guests traveling,"},{"startTime":898.215,"endTime":901.245,"body":"you're gonna suffer badly."},{"startTime":901.245,"endTime":901.725,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":901.785,"endTime":901.935,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":901.995,"endTime":903.285,"body":"And, and that's, and that's what it took."},{"startTime":903.285,"endTime":906.795,"body":"Cuz you see every other organization,"},{"startTime":903.285,"endTime":906.795,"body":"they, they had a reason to."},{"startTime":907.035,"endTime":907.905,"body":"We're slow."},{"startTime":908.085,"endTime":908.205,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":908.205,"endTime":909.615,"body":"Why not look at ourselves now?"},{"startTime":909.855,"endTime":910.335,"body":"Perfect."},{"startTime":910.425,"endTime":910.515,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":910.545,"endTime":913.935,"body":"What does every company in, in the middle"},{"startTime":910.545,"endTime":913.935,"body":"of any transformation, or if you see"},{"startTime":913.935,"endTime":918.225,"body":"something that's wrong, how can we make"},{"startTime":913.935,"endTime":918.225,"body":"these changes and not impact business?"},{"startTime":918.275,"endTime":921.415,"body":"I I would say that you're, you're seeing"},{"startTime":918.275,"endTime":921.415,"body":"that changes need to be made because"},{"startTime":921.42,"endTime":923.155,"body":"you've seen an impact to your business."},{"startTime":923.155,"endTime":923.156,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":923.162,"endTime":923.475,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":923.495,"endTime":924.625,"body":"So what are you saying?"},{"startTime":924.625,"endTime":927.025,"body":"Are you saying you don't wanna"},{"startTime":924.625,"endTime":927.025,"body":"make changes that could possibly"},{"startTime":927.025,"endTime":928.675,"body":"impact your business more?"},{"startTime":928.735,"endTime":928.885,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":929.725,"endTime":932.275,"body":"Cause I think, as you said,"},{"startTime":929.725,"endTime":932.275,"body":"it's, it's an overtime thing."},{"startTime":932.275,"endTime":936.115,"body":"And if, if you have business"},{"startTime":932.275,"endTime":936.115,"body":"issues over time, there's no"},{"startTime":936.115,"endTime":937.435,"body":"better time to change than today."},{"startTime":937.435,"endTime":940.885,"body":"Now, change is hard, but why,"},{"startTime":937.435,"endTime":940.885,"body":"why would you drag your feet?"},{"startTime":940.885,"endTime":942.145,"body":"Because you're afraid to lose business?"},{"startTime":942.145,"endTime":942.565,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":942.595,"endTime":946.725,"body":"The wild thing about this is he just told"},{"startTime":942.595,"endTime":946.725,"body":"us he sat on this for 10 years and got"},{"startTime":946.725,"endTime":952.095,"body":"less and less comfortable over the course"},{"startTime":946.725,"endTime":952.095,"body":"of 10 years until the pandemic, hit his"},{"startTime":952.1,"endTime":954.135,"body":"business with an 80% drop in revenue."},{"startTime":954.795,"endTime":957.015,"body":"And he absolutely had to respond."},{"startTime":957.02,"endTime":962.055,"body":"Like I, I, I think like how, how lucky,"},{"startTime":957.02,"endTime":962.055,"body":"how lucky he was to survive, first"},{"startTime":962.055,"endTime":963.045,"body":"of all, like as a business, right?"},{"startTime":963.255,"endTime":964.995,"body":"But how lucky he had that opportunity."},{"startTime":964.995,"endTime":967.971,"body":"When, when, when we did our podcast"},{"startTime":964.995,"endTime":967.971,"body":"about John Cotter's leading change."},{"startTime":967.971,"endTime":967.972,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":968.031,"endTime":970.811,"body":"Like the first thing in leading"},{"startTime":968.031,"endTime":970.811,"body":"change, is to, you have to"},{"startTime":970.811,"endTime":972.941,"body":"create a sense of urgency, right?"},{"startTime":973.061,"endTime":978.916,"body":"A burning need to help you drive the"},{"startTime":973.061,"endTime":978.916,"body":"change that, Hey, we need to change why"},{"startTime":978.976,"endTime":982.706,"body":"everything's great, economy's great, we're"},{"startTime":978.976,"endTime":982.706,"body":"moving free money, 0% interest, whatever."},{"startTime":982.966,"endTime":984.526,"body":"There's no urgency there."},{"startTime":984.766,"endTime":987.676,"body":"The first step is driving"},{"startTime":984.766,"endTime":987.676,"body":"a sense of urgency."},{"startTime":987.706,"endTime":990.646,"body":"He didn't, he like, he had a lot"},{"startTime":987.706,"endTime":990.646,"body":"of help driving a sense of urgency"},{"startTime":990.676,"endTime":992.956,"body":"cuz his whole business was tanking."},{"startTime":993.166,"endTime":997.156,"body":"And very luckily he could"},{"startTime":993.166,"endTime":997.156,"body":"execute the changes he wanted to."},{"startTime":997.276,"endTime":1000.246,"body":"I mean, you, you also could argue,"},{"startTime":997.276,"endTime":1000.246,"body":"be like you're the ceo, like who"},{"startTime":1000.246,"endTime":1001.416,"body":"else is gonna execute the changes?"},{"startTime":1001.626,"endTime":1004.596,"body":"But, but again,  he just spent"},{"startTime":1001.626,"endTime":1004.596,"body":"a couple minutes qualifying."},{"startTime":1004.726,"endTime":1009.286,"body":"We were going into this, big I p o"},{"startTime":1004.726,"endTime":1009.286,"body":"and I had all these people and the"},{"startTime":1009.286,"endTime":1012.316,"body":"businesses ballooned over time and"},{"startTime":1009.286,"endTime":1012.316,"body":"I feel like I, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1012.366,"endTime":1016.121,"body":"On one hand, one side of me will be"},{"startTime":1012.366,"endTime":1016.121,"body":"like, well, you're running the business."},{"startTime":1016.121,"endTime":1017.021,"body":"You can change it any time."},{"startTime":1017.321,"endTime":1017.951,"body":"Who's stopping you?"},{"startTime":1018.101,"endTime":1018.911,"body":"Yeah, right, exactly."},{"startTime":1018.911,"endTime":1019.301,"body":"Who's stopping you?"},{"startTime":1019.331,"endTime":1022.931,"body":"But on the other, on the other side of"},{"startTime":1019.331,"endTime":1022.931,"body":"it is, the side of me that has worked"},{"startTime":1022.931,"endTime":1027.251,"body":"with founders and stuff where they feel"},{"startTime":1022.931,"endTime":1027.251,"body":"the weight of like, any change I make,"},{"startTime":1027.401,"endTime":1030.401,"body":"if I make it in the wrong direction,"},{"startTime":1027.401,"endTime":1030.401,"body":"these people are gonna lose jobs and"},{"startTime":1030.406,"endTime":1031.451,"body":"they have families and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1031.451,"endTime":1033.971,"body":"So I, on one hand, I"},{"startTime":1031.451,"endTime":1033.971,"body":"understand what he's saying."},{"startTime":1033.971,"endTime":1036.941,"body":"On the other hand, like yeah,"},{"startTime":1033.971,"endTime":1036.941,"body":"right, that I had that attitude in"},{"startTime":1036.946,"endTime":1040.061,"body":"the back of the back of my head,"},{"startTime":1036.946,"endTime":1040.061,"body":"but, they did make it through."},{"startTime":1040.271,"endTime":1041.771,"body":"Could, could I devil's advocate you then?"},{"startTime":1041.771,"endTime":1042.251,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1042.251,"endTime":1044.556,"body":"So you said he waited he"},{"startTime":1042.251,"endTime":1044.556,"body":"sat on this for 10 years."},{"startTime":1045.336,"endTime":1048.696,"body":"I might say he gave it a"},{"startTime":1045.336,"endTime":1048.696,"body":"shot for 10 years, maybe."},{"startTime":1048.696,"endTime":1049.236,"body":"He tried."},{"startTime":1049.236,"endTime":1050.406,"body":"He just, he stayed quiet."},{"startTime":1050.406,"endTime":1051.456,"body":"Saw it was a little bit of weight."},{"startTime":1051.456,"endTime":1054.696,"body":"I mean, but he at least gave it time"},{"startTime":1051.456,"endTime":1054.696,"body":"because you can look at change and"},{"startTime":1054.696,"endTime":1055.806,"body":"say, oh, this is a bad direction."},{"startTime":1055.806,"endTime":1055.896,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1056.166,"endTime":1058.676,"body":"But if it's the, if it's the"},{"startTime":1056.166,"endTime":1058.676,"body":"first month that's not long enough"},{"startTime":1058.676,"endTime":1059.936,"body":"to actually understand data."},{"startTime":1059.941,"endTime":1062.066,"body":"But then he saw 10 years and"},{"startTime":1059.941,"endTime":1062.066,"body":"he goes, 10 years is enough."},{"startTime":1062.116,"endTime":1065.986,"body":"And again, I'm only speculating here,"},{"startTime":1062.116,"endTime":1065.986,"body":"but maybe he said I wait 10 years."},{"startTime":1066.016,"endTime":1066.076,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1066.706,"endTime":1071.506,"body":"And we're not getting a lot of traffic on"},{"startTime":1066.706,"endTime":1071.506,"body":"the site, so we have an ability to adjust."},{"startTime":1071.506,"endTime":1071.596,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1071.866,"endTime":1072.886,"body":"Now is the time."},{"startTime":1072.916,"endTime":1072.976,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1072.976,"endTime":1074.206,"body":"And so now we change."},{"startTime":1074.211,"endTime":1074.396,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1074.436,"endTime":1074.756,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1074.996,"endTime":1076.216,"body":"I think it's a multitude of factors."},{"startTime":1076.216,"endTime":1077.116,"body":"So that's part of it."},{"startTime":1077.121,"endTime":1079.946,"body":"And also the other part of it"},{"startTime":1077.121,"endTime":1079.946,"body":"is he suddenly found himself"},{"startTime":1080.006,"endTime":1082.166,"body":"in competition with others."},{"startTime":1082.216,"endTime":1083.386,"body":"Over those 10 years."},{"startTime":1083.391,"endTime":1084.766,"body":"That's one aspect of it."},{"startTime":1084.766,"endTime":1089.026,"body":"The other aspect is because of the"},{"startTime":1084.766,"endTime":1089.026,"body":"pandemic, he felt, there's a burning need"},{"startTime":1089.026,"endTime":1092.506,"body":"to change because it's threatening the"},{"startTime":1089.026,"endTime":1092.506,"body":"survival of the company at that point."},{"startTime":1092.726,"endTime":1097.766,"body":"The Enterprise Agile coach in me anyway"},{"startTime":1092.726,"endTime":1097.766,"body":"wants to say, well, if you're the CEO"},{"startTime":1097.771,"endTime":1100.376,"body":"of the company, like I know you're,"},{"startTime":1097.771,"endTime":1100.376,"body":"you're tracking financials and you're"},{"startTime":1100.376,"endTime":1103.922,"body":"tracking, the, the product metrics and"},{"startTime":1100.376,"endTime":1103.922,"body":"stuff like that, where's your board for"},{"startTime":1103.922,"endTime":1105.242,"body":"transformation of your organization?"},{"startTime":1105.402,"endTime":1108.462,"body":"Where is your organization"},{"startTime":1105.402,"endTime":1108.462,"body":"gonna be five years from now?"},{"startTime":1108.612,"endTime":1109.392,"body":"That goes next?"},{"startTime":1109.397,"endTime":1112.002,"body":"What is, what's the culture"},{"startTime":1109.397,"endTime":1112.002,"body":"of your organization that"},{"startTime":1112.002,"endTime":1113.502,"body":"you would like to project?"},{"startTime":1113.682,"endTime":1119.772,"body":"And can we put those goals on the Kanban"},{"startTime":1113.682,"endTime":1119.772,"body":"board and try to implement strategies"},{"startTime":1119.772,"endTime":1123.132,"body":"and test things; organizational"},{"startTime":1119.772,"endTime":1123.132,"body":"things to get to where you wanna be."},{"startTime":1123.232,"endTime":1125.182,"body":"What kind of communication"},{"startTime":1123.232,"endTime":1125.182,"body":"structures do I want?"},{"startTime":1125.362,"endTime":1128.452,"body":"What kind of quote reporting"},{"startTime":1125.362,"endTime":1128.452,"body":"structures do I want?"},{"startTime":1128.452,"endTime":1131.452,"body":"My, I don't want to be a, a"},{"startTime":1128.452,"endTime":1131.452,"body":"pyramid hierarchy anymore."},{"startTime":1131.962,"endTime":1133.282,"body":"What do I want to be now?"},{"startTime":1133.312,"endTime":1135.352,"body":"Well, I, let's experiment,"},{"startTime":1133.312,"endTime":1135.352,"body":"let's figure it out."},{"startTime":1135.562,"endTime":1140.752,"body":"Now I need some kind of, transformation,"},{"startTime":1135.562,"endTime":1140.752,"body":"Kanban or backlog or something where I'm"},{"startTime":1140.752,"endTime":1144.622,"body":"trying my experiments over time to try"},{"startTime":1140.752,"endTime":1144.622,"body":"to change, actively steer the culture."},{"startTime":1144.892,"endTime":1150.172,"body":"If you don't have that work transparent"},{"startTime":1144.892,"endTime":1150.172,"body":"somewhere, How, first of all, how"},{"startTime":1150.172,"endTime":1151.042,"body":"do you know it's gonna be done?"},{"startTime":1151.072,"endTime":1153.022,"body":"And second of all, who"},{"startTime":1151.072,"endTime":1153.022,"body":"is steering your culture?"},{"startTime":1153.112,"endTime":1154.762,"body":"Well, indeed, how do you"},{"startTime":1153.112,"endTime":1154.762,"body":"know what needs to be done?"},{"startTime":1154.792,"endTime":1155.602,"body":"Because it's not visible."},{"startTime":1155.602,"endTime":1156.262,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1156.472,"endTime":1156.532,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1156.532,"endTime":1159.292,"body":"They, they need a, they need"},{"startTime":1156.532,"endTime":1159.292,"body":"a unified voice from a leader."},{"startTime":1159.292,"endTime":1161.152,"body":"So he's the ceo, he's in charge of this."},{"startTime":1161.932,"endTime":1163.312,"body":"And he's admitted."},{"startTime":1163.312,"endTime":1165.472,"body":"I, maybe I didn't recognize it."},{"startTime":1165.472,"endTime":1168.562,"body":"For whatever reason, somebody's shifting"},{"startTime":1165.472,"endTime":1168.562,"body":"it, as you said, somebody's shifting it."},{"startTime":1168.622,"endTime":1168.862,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1169.582,"endTime":1171.112,"body":"And I've seen it in my experience before."},{"startTime":1171.117,"endTime":1173.162,"body":"I mean, you just literally have"},{"startTime":1171.117,"endTime":1173.162,"body":"to sit down with the CEO and"},{"startTime":1173.162,"endTime":1174.562,"body":"say, Hey, they need a leader."},{"startTime":1174.682,"endTime":1174.772,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1174.777,"endTime":1175.972,"body":"They need to know where they're going."},{"startTime":1175.972,"endTime":1177.502,"body":"They need to know what you want to build."},{"startTime":1177.507,"endTime":1177.592,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1178.042,"endTime":1181.402,"body":"And it sounds like in this case, if"},{"startTime":1178.042,"endTime":1181.402,"body":"you were to try to ask that question"},{"startTime":1181.402,"endTime":1186.712,"body":"or him as the ceo, he wouldn't be"},{"startTime":1181.402,"endTime":1186.712,"body":"able to articulate to you where you're"},{"startTime":1186.712,"endTime":1189.922,"body":"going other than we're just trying"},{"startTime":1186.712,"endTime":1189.922,"body":"to make as much money as possible."},{"startTime":1189.952,"endTime":1190.012,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1190.012,"endTime":1192.352,"body":"And we do that by maybe"},{"startTime":1190.012,"endTime":1192.352,"body":"doing a couple of things."},{"startTime":1192.357,"endTime":1192.532,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1192.532,"endTime":1194.152,"body":"But we don't really have a strategy here."},{"startTime":1194.182,"endTime":1194.272,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1194.302,"endTime":1195.052,"body":"There was no strategy."},{"startTime":1195.052,"endTime":1195.982,"body":"There was no measurement."},{"startTime":1195.982,"endTime":1199.732,"body":"There was no, are there, what's our North"},{"startTime":1195.982,"endTime":1199.732,"body":"star that, I mean, there might have been"},{"startTime":1199.732,"endTime":1202.492,"body":"words on a wall somewhere, probably, but"},{"startTime":1199.732,"endTime":1202.492,"body":"that's probably about where it ended."},{"startTime":1202.492,"endTime":1205.132,"body":"There was no step 2, 3, 4."},{"startTime":1205.132,"endTime":1206.362,"body":"There was no measurement against it."},{"startTime":1206.367,"endTime":1207.472,"body":"That's, that's the crazy part."},{"startTime":1207.472,"endTime":1210.442,"body":"And you, you, that's the, where it"},{"startTime":1207.472,"endTime":1210.442,"body":"starts is like, Hey, you all wanna"},{"startTime":1210.442,"endTime":1213.622,"body":"do Agile, you wanna do waterfall,"},{"startTime":1210.442,"endTime":1213.622,"body":"you wanna do you wanna do Kanban?"},{"startTime":1214.222,"endTime":1214.432,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1214.772,"endTime":1215.382,"body":"Pick something."},{"startTime":1215.382,"endTime":1215.662,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1216.052,"endTime":1218.362,"body":"Pick, pick it and lead, lead it."},{"startTime":1218.662,"endTime":1219.382,"body":"Make a choice."},{"startTime":1219.382,"endTime":1219.472,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1219.772,"endTime":1224.092,"body":"But don't pick something and then"},{"startTime":1219.772,"endTime":1224.092,"body":"disconnect and say, you all go do, because"},{"startTime":1224.092,"endTime":1225.292,"body":"they need a little bit more than that."},{"startTime":1225.292,"endTime":1228.322,"body":"They don't need handholding or"},{"startTime":1225.292,"endTime":1228.322,"body":"micromanaging, but they need more."},{"startTime":1228.322,"endTime":1229.822,"body":"Leader does a little bit more than that."},{"startTime":1229.872,"endTime":1234.532,"body":"I also think that he needs, uh he"},{"startTime":1229.872,"endTime":1234.532,"body":"needs help, from somebody, right."},{"startTime":1234.532,"endTime":1236.032,"body":"In order to, to make this happen."},{"startTime":1236.062,"endTime":1238.522,"body":"The Gino Wickman Traction book."},{"startTime":1238.522,"endTime":1243.472,"body":"The, the book where the, eos the"},{"startTime":1238.522,"endTime":1243.472,"body":"entrepreneurial operating system."},{"startTime":1243.472,"endTime":1244.072,"body":"Operating system, yeah."},{"startTime":1244.072,"endTime":1249.352,"body":"Is from, it, it, it, it lists out that"},{"startTime":1244.072,"endTime":1249.352,"body":"like any company, especially small"},{"startTime":1249.352,"endTime":1253.872,"body":"companies, they have a, visionary"},{"startTime":1249.352,"endTime":1253.872,"body":"and they have an integrator, and"},{"startTime":1253.872,"endTime":1255.732,"body":"the visionary is a source of ideas."},{"startTime":1255.912,"endTime":1258.412,"body":"And the integrator  they have operational"},{"startTime":1255.912,"endTime":1258.412,"body":"skill and they make it happen."},{"startTime":1258.412,"endTime":1258.802,"body":"The doer."},{"startTime":1258.852,"endTime":1259.012,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1259.012,"endTime":1259.172,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1259.172,"endTime":1261.192,"body":"They have a Steve Jobs and a Wozniak."},{"startTime":1261.242,"endTime":1262.202,"body":"Woz is the doer."},{"startTime":1262.262,"endTime":1262.532,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1262.532,"endTime":1263.372,"body":"Steve is the visionary."},{"startTime":1263.372,"endTime":1265.652,"body":"That's, that's, that's"},{"startTime":1263.372,"endTime":1265.652,"body":"the s Apple we're back to."},{"startTime":1265.892,"endTime":1266.132,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1266.132,"endTime":1266.912,"body":"That's the s book."},{"startTime":1267.182,"endTime":1267.722,"body":"That's awesome."},{"startTime":1268.532,"endTime":1272.192,"body":"But, anyway, let's, let's"},{"startTime":1268.532,"endTime":1272.192,"body":"kick back into, this session"},{"startTime":1272.242,"endTime":1273.972,"body":"so, and so, I said, there's a simple rule."},{"startTime":1273.972,"endTime":1277.572,"body":"If it's not on the roadmap, it can't"},{"startTime":1273.972,"endTime":1277.572,"body":"ship, and it must be on one roadmap."},{"startTime":1277.632,"endTime":1280.782,"body":"So with this giant exercise, we put"},{"startTime":1277.632,"endTime":1280.782,"body":"every single thing on one roadmap."},{"startTime":1281.352,"endTime":1284.592,"body":"Then I said, we can only do 10%"},{"startTime":1281.352,"endTime":1284.592,"body":"of the things on the roadmap."},{"startTime":1284.652,"endTime":1286.722,"body":"That was a wet reckoning."},{"startTime":1287.262,"endTime":1289.752,"body":"So I said, we're only gonna"},{"startTime":1287.262,"endTime":1289.752,"body":"do a few really big things."},{"startTime":1289.932,"endTime":1293.082,"body":"We took the very best people, we"},{"startTime":1289.932,"endTime":1293.082,"body":"put 'em all in a few projects."},{"startTime":1293.172,"endTime":1298.122,"body":"And then I said, we're not gonna do"},{"startTime":1293.172,"endTime":1298.122,"body":"ab test unless AB test, AB testing is"},{"startTime":1298.122,"endTime":1300.672,"body":"abdicating a responsibility to the users."},{"startTime":1301.062,"endTime":1303.552,"body":"And so we're gonna do a"},{"startTime":1301.062,"endTime":1303.552,"body":"little bit of experimentation."},{"startTime":1304.402,"endTime":1307.904,"body":"but if we do AB testing, you're gonna"},{"startTime":1304.402,"endTime":1307.904,"body":"only do it if you have a hypothesis."},{"startTime":1308.564,"endTime":1311.204,"body":"If B is better than A, you have"},{"startTime":1308.564,"endTime":1311.204,"body":"to know why B was better than"},{"startTime":1311.204,"endTime":1314.264,"body":"a, otherwise we're stuck with"},{"startTime":1311.204,"endTime":1314.264,"body":"that for like the next 10 years."},{"startTime":1314.454,"endTime":1316.194,"body":"So, oh my God, I got right click."},{"startTime":1316.344,"endTime":1317.094,"body":"It's a wet reckoning."},{"startTime":1317.094,"endTime":1317.904,"body":"So, so yeah."},{"startTime":1317.904,"endTime":1318.594,"body":"Wet Reckoning."},{"startTime":1318.599,"endTime":1319.344,"body":"That was so weird."},{"startTime":1319.344,"endTime":1319.734,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1319.739,"endTime":1320.574,"body":"I'm, I'm gonna start using that."},{"startTime":1320.574,"endTime":1322.584,"body":"Im not sure what a Wet reckoning"},{"startTime":1320.574,"endTime":1322.584,"body":"is, but that's the title."},{"startTime":1322.584,"endTime":1323.094,"body":"Wet Reckoning."},{"startTime":1323.624,"endTime":1326.364,"body":"I think it's a, I think it's"},{"startTime":1323.624,"endTime":1326.364,"body":"a teenage problem anyway."},{"startTime":1326.634,"endTime":1328.134,"body":"Why did I stop the video AB test?"},{"startTime":1328.464,"endTime":1331.284,"body":"I realized when he was talking about"},{"startTime":1328.464,"endTime":1331.284,"body":"this that like, there's like a Silicon"},{"startTime":1331.284,"endTime":1334.984,"body":"Valley nature of AB tests that  whenever"},{"startTime":1331.284,"endTime":1334.984,"body":"you implement a new feature, you have"},{"startTime":1334.989,"endTime":1336.574,"body":"to do ab test regardless of whatever."},{"startTime":1336.579,"endTime":1340.924,"body":"Like, some of this is in his little"},{"startTime":1336.579,"endTime":1340.924,"body":"bubble cultural that the rest of us"},{"startTime":1340.924,"endTime":1342.424,"body":"don't really do like the rest of us."},{"startTime":1342.424,"endTime":1344.074,"body":"I would say the rest of us in"},{"startTime":1342.424,"endTime":1344.074,"body":"the real world, were like, we're"},{"startTime":1344.074,"endTime":1345.364,"body":"just happy to do an AB test."},{"startTime":1345.364,"endTime":1346.954,"body":"I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1347.014,"endTime":1347.344,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":1347.494,"endTime":1349.564,"body":"I've been companies that never AB test."},{"startTime":1349.569,"endTime":1349.744,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":1349.744,"endTime":1349.984,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":1350.494,"endTime":1350.974,"body":"I get it."},{"startTime":1350.974,"endTime":1352.774,"body":"He's like, we're doing too"},{"startTime":1350.974,"endTime":1352.774,"body":"much AB test and too much of"},{"startTime":1352.774,"endTime":1353.764,"body":"a good thing is a bad thing."},{"startTime":1353.764,"endTime":1355.984,"body":"But there's a lot of"},{"startTime":1353.764,"endTime":1355.984,"body":"companies that fly by this."},{"startTime":1355.984,"endTime":1357.094,"body":"Either their pants and Right."},{"startTime":1357.094,"endTime":1359.674,"body":"They couldn't tell you how to do an AB"},{"startTime":1357.094,"endTime":1359.674,"body":"test and you could be like, well, you've"},{"startTime":1359.674,"endTime":1360.844,"body":"been in marketing here for 10 years."},{"startTime":1360.844,"endTime":1360.904,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1360.904,"endTime":1361.664,"body":"Well, what's an AB test?"},{"startTime":1361.664,"endTime":1361.784,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1361.784,"endTime":1362.014,"body":"It's like,"},{"startTime":1362.134,"endTime":1363.814,"body":"well these, these guys, these guys."},{"startTime":1363.814,"endTime":1364.504,"body":"AB test."},{"startTime":1364.849,"endTime":1369.859,"body":"Every single idea like that, that's,"},{"startTime":1364.849,"endTime":1369.859,"body":"that's, that's in their culture, you know?"},{"startTime":1369.859,"endTime":1372.949,"body":"So this is part of, this is a cultural"},{"startTime":1369.859,"endTime":1372.949,"body":"thing, and I just wanted to highlight"},{"startTime":1372.949,"endTime":1376.309,"body":"it, to skip past it, to be like, Hey,"},{"startTime":1372.949,"endTime":1376.309,"body":"that's just what they do out in silicon."},{"startTime":1376.339,"endTime":1378.959,"body":"Like, it's like when you're cooking,"},{"startTime":1376.339,"endTime":1378.959,"body":"there's like a little bit of salt."},{"startTime":1378.959,"endTime":1379.829,"body":"Not too much salt."},{"startTime":1379.949,"endTime":1381.539,"body":"Like how do you know when"},{"startTime":1379.949,"endTime":1381.539,"body":"you're adding too much salt?"},{"startTime":1381.539,"endTime":1382.589,"body":"Well, you just gotta feel it out."},{"startTime":1382.589,"endTime":1385.519,"body":"And like, that's, that's"},{"startTime":1382.589,"endTime":1385.519,"body":"how ab tests should be used."},{"startTime":1385.609,"endTime":1387.979,"body":"Yeah, I was gonna say he was sipping"},{"startTime":1385.609,"endTime":1387.979,"body":"on the sauce about every five seconds,"},{"startTime":1387.984,"endTime":1390.769,"body":"rather than saying, let's let it cook for"},{"startTime":1387.984,"endTime":1390.769,"body":"a little bit before we do another test."},{"startTime":1390.774,"endTime":1391.789,"body":"Yeah, let's let it simmer."},{"startTime":1392.182,"endTime":1396.712,"body":"And so we are gonna focus number one on"},{"startTime":1392.182,"endTime":1396.712,"body":"shipping things that you're proud of."},{"startTime":1396.712,"endTime":1398.482,"body":"If you don't wanna put your"},{"startTime":1396.712,"endTime":1398.482,"body":"name on it, you don't ship it."},{"startTime":1398.932,"endTime":1401.782,"body":"The designers are equal"},{"startTime":1398.932,"endTime":1401.782,"body":"to the product managers."},{"startTime":1401.932,"endTime":1404.842,"body":"Actually, we got rid of the classic"},{"startTime":1401.932,"endTime":1404.842,"body":"product management function."},{"startTime":1405.292,"endTime":1406.282,"body":"Apple didn't have it either."},{"startTime":1407.647,"endTime":1409.237,"body":"Well, let's be careful."},{"startTime":1410.527,"endTime":1411.097,"body":"Classic."},{"startTime":1411.097,"endTime":1411.277,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":1411.517,"endTime":1411.787,"body":"Hold on."},{"startTime":1411.787,"endTime":1414.487,"body":"We have, we, we have product marketers."},{"startTime":1414.877,"endTime":1418.507,"body":"We combined product management with"},{"startTime":1414.877,"endTime":1418.507,"body":"product marketing, and we said that"},{"startTime":1418.507,"endTime":1422.347,"body":"you can't develop products unless you"},{"startTime":1418.507,"endTime":1422.347,"body":"know how to talk about the products."},{"startTime":1422.377,"endTime":1423.907,"body":"We made the team much smaller."},{"startTime":1424.027,"endTime":1425.287,"body":"We elevated design."},{"startTime":1425.377,"endTime":1427.207,"body":"By the way, I started thinking"},{"startTime":1425.377,"endTime":1427.207,"body":"to myself, who's the product"},{"startTime":1427.207,"endTime":1428.377,"body":"manager when we design a building?"},{"startTime":1429.247,"endTime":1430.117,"body":"The architect."},{"startTime":1430.378,"endTime":1434.398,"body":"we thought of designers very much"},{"startTime":1430.378,"endTime":1434.398,"body":"as architects and this is how"},{"startTime":1434.398,"endTime":1435.298,"body":"we started around the company."},{"startTime":1436.018,"endTime":1437.848,"body":"And I started reviewing all the work."},{"startTime":1437.878,"endTime":1440.698,"body":"I reviewed the work every week,"},{"startTime":1437.878,"endTime":1440.698,"body":"every two weeks, every four weeks."},{"startTime":1441.058,"endTime":1442.828,"body":"Before people thought that was meddling."},{"startTime":1443.008,"endTime":1443.938,"body":"And I said, you know what?"},{"startTime":1443.938,"endTime":1444.478,"body":"Screw it."},{"startTime":1444.478,"endTime":1446.038,"body":"Like we're gonna review everything."},{"startTime":1446.043,"endTime":1447.238,"body":"I'm gonna be the chief editor."},{"startTime":1447.388,"endTime":1449.338,"body":"And I didn't push decision making down."},{"startTime":1449.548,"endTime":1452.488,"body":"I decided to pull decision making"},{"startTime":1449.548,"endTime":1452.488,"body":"in like the orchestra conductor."},{"startTime":1452.598,"endTime":1455.948,"body":"oh wait, hang on, hang on, hang on,"},{"startTime":1452.598,"endTime":1455.948,"body":"what you just heard is we got rid of"},{"startTime":1455.948,"endTime":1458.768,"body":"the traditional product management job."},{"startTime":1459.158,"endTime":1463.358,"body":"We decided we needed product"},{"startTime":1459.158,"endTime":1463.358,"body":"marketers and we merged product"},{"startTime":1463.363,"endTime":1464.858,"body":"managers with product marketing."},{"startTime":1464.858,"endTime":1468.038,"body":"That the, so that's the important thing"},{"startTime":1464.858,"endTime":1468.038,"body":"is that he just pointed out, say if you"},{"startTime":1468.038,"endTime":1471.878,"body":"can't, if, if you can't talk about a"},{"startTime":1468.038,"endTime":1471.878,"body":"feature, you can't implement a feature."},{"startTime":1471.908,"endTime":1473.648,"body":"That, that's basically"},{"startTime":1471.908,"endTime":1473.648,"body":"what he just lined out."},{"startTime":1473.648,"endTime":1478.868,"body":"And when I, when he says talk about"},{"startTime":1473.648,"endTime":1478.868,"body":"what he means is if you can't inform"},{"startTime":1478.898,"endTime":1483.023,"body":"the marketing department, the sales"},{"startTime":1478.898,"endTime":1483.023,"body":"department, Market it throughout the"},{"startTime":1483.023,"endTime":1486.623,"body":"company externally, out outside of"},{"startTime":1483.023,"endTime":1486.623,"body":"the company, ba basically, if you"},{"startTime":1486.623,"endTime":1491.543,"body":"can't put your face to the feature and"},{"startTime":1486.623,"endTime":1491.543,"body":"talk about it and sell it, then you"},{"startTime":1491.548,"endTime":1493.403,"body":"shouldn't be in the product manager spot."},{"startTime":1493.583,"endTime":1494.753,"body":"I have no problem with that."},{"startTime":1495.093,"endTime":1497.908,"body":"And we, we've had podcasts, I"},{"startTime":1495.093,"endTime":1497.908,"body":"think maybe stormy's very first"},{"startTime":1497.908,"endTime":1500.668,"body":"podcast or a couple, like her second"},{"startTime":1497.908,"endTime":1500.668,"body":"podcast or something like that."},{"startTime":1500.668,"endTime":1502.108,"body":"It was about product"},{"startTime":1500.668,"endTime":1502.108,"body":"owner and product manager."},{"startTime":1502.108,"endTime":1503.128,"body":"Like tearing the roles apart."},{"startTime":1503.133,"endTime":1503.248,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1503.248,"endTime":1503.448,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1503.453,"endTime":1508.003,"body":"When you tear the product owner role out"},{"startTime":1503.453,"endTime":1508.003,"body":"of the product manager position, what he's"},{"startTime":1508.003,"endTime":1509.803,"body":"describing is what you get in my opinion."},{"startTime":1509.833,"endTime":1509.953,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1510.343,"endTime":1515.083,"body":"Is you get a, a group that just interfaces"},{"startTime":1510.343,"endTime":1515.083,"body":"internally to the developers and decides"},{"startTime":1515.083,"endTime":1516.493,"body":"what to work on and kind of like."},{"startTime":1517.243,"endTime":1522.343,"body":"Sort of architects things and figures"},{"startTime":1517.243,"endTime":1522.343,"body":"out solutions , and, and can't really"},{"startTime":1522.343,"endTime":1525.793,"body":"externally talk about it and can't"},{"startTime":1522.343,"endTime":1525.793,"body":"write marketing text, and can't talk to"},{"startTime":1525.793,"endTime":1529.363,"body":"sales and can't figure out how to sell"},{"startTime":1525.793,"endTime":1529.363,"body":"things, doesn't participate in pricing."},{"startTime":1529.673,"endTime":1531.233,"body":"In marketing that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1531.238,"endTime":1532.193,"body":"Doesn't write texts."},{"startTime":1532.198,"endTime":1533.183,"body":"It's seen by customers."},{"startTime":1533.633,"endTime":1536.873,"body":"And, I honestly, I'm kind"},{"startTime":1533.633,"endTime":1536.873,"body":"of with them on this one."},{"startTime":1536.873,"endTime":1538.823,"body":"I, I think that you should be doing that."},{"startTime":1539.663,"endTime":1542.033,"body":"It's a, it's a slippery slope."},{"startTime":1542.153,"endTime":1543.863,"body":"Yes, I, I would agree."},{"startTime":1543.863,"endTime":1545.423,"body":"The way you approached it was, right."},{"startTime":1545.423,"endTime":1549.833,"body":"It's, it's, but what it's what you see"},{"startTime":1545.423,"endTime":1549.833,"body":"a lot is, is people, they want, they"},{"startTime":1549.833,"endTime":1552.893,"body":"see a good product, owner, manager,"},{"startTime":1549.833,"endTime":1552.893,"body":"whatever you wanna call 'em Sure."},{"startTime":1552.893,"endTime":1555.443,"body":"In this situation, and then they"},{"startTime":1552.893,"endTime":1555.443,"body":"want to try to duplicate 'em."},{"startTime":1555.443,"endTime":1556.463,"body":"So then they get bogged down."},{"startTime":1556.468,"endTime":1559.583,"body":"Well, then what happens is those"},{"startTime":1556.468,"endTime":1559.583,"body":"people either get promoted and"},{"startTime":1559.588,"endTime":1562.223,"body":"then, or they get overwhelmed,"},{"startTime":1559.588,"endTime":1562.223,"body":"and then you have to split 'em."},{"startTime":1562.223,"endTime":1565.103,"body":"Well, what ends up happening, that's when"},{"startTime":1562.223,"endTime":1565.103,"body":"the product owner becomes just a proxy."},{"startTime":1565.108,"endTime":1565.993,"body":"They're just a proxy, right."},{"startTime":1565.998,"endTime":1567.803,"body":"They're there to, to fill a role."},{"startTime":1568.073,"endTime":1570.683,"body":"Answer some questions, but they"},{"startTime":1568.073,"endTime":1570.683,"body":"can't even make a decision."},{"startTime":1570.773,"endTime":1570.923,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1570.923,"endTime":1571.823,"body":"They couldn't tell you anything."},{"startTime":1571.823,"endTime":1572.363,"body":"They couldn't."},{"startTime":1572.368,"endTime":1575.783,"body":"That's why he's saying what he's"},{"startTime":1572.368,"endTime":1575.783,"body":"saying, and I think he's not wrong."},{"startTime":1575.783,"endTime":1576.833,"body":"His analogy was great."},{"startTime":1577.133,"endTime":1579.233,"body":"Product managers are like the architect."},{"startTime":1579.923,"endTime":1581.213,"body":"I, I would agree with that."},{"startTime":1581.213,"endTime":1584.183,"body":"I would be careful using the word"},{"startTime":1581.213,"endTime":1584.183,"body":"architect in a technology setting,"},{"startTime":1584.188,"endTime":1587.543,"body":"because I'm like, they're not coming"},{"startTime":1584.188,"endTime":1587.543,"body":"up with service oriented architecture."},{"startTime":1587.633,"endTime":1591.203,"body":"What they're doing is, is they're"},{"startTime":1587.633,"endTime":1591.203,"body":"designing the features of the house."},{"startTime":1591.203,"endTime":1593.573,"body":"Why they're designing the features"},{"startTime":1591.203,"endTime":1593.573,"body":"of the house that is better for"},{"startTime":1593.573,"endTime":1595.913,"body":"you, you as the user of the house."},{"startTime":1595.943,"endTime":1596.093,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1596.333,"endTime":1597.953,"body":"That's what he's saying in this context."},{"startTime":1597.983,"endTime":1598.073,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1598.318,"endTime":1598.913,"body":"Is this great?"},{"startTime":1598.913,"endTime":1599.303,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1599.513,"endTime":1604.253,"body":"It's not to say that you, you have to"},{"startTime":1599.513,"endTime":1604.253,"body":"have a designer that is a product manager."},{"startTime":1604.733,"endTime":1608.363,"body":"I think the message that he's"},{"startTime":1604.733,"endTime":1608.363,"body":"saying is that a product manager"},{"startTime":1608.363,"endTime":1610.763,"body":"needs to be design focused."},{"startTime":1610.763,"endTime":1610.823,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1610.823,"endTime":1612.143,"body":"Design thinker."},{"startTime":1612.173,"endTime":1612.323,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1612.328,"endTime":1615.203,"body":"Needs to be thinking through"},{"startTime":1612.328,"endTime":1615.203,"body":"not, not get requirements."},{"startTime":1615.203,"endTime":1615.953,"body":"Don't do that."},{"startTime":1616.223,"endTime":1619.793,"body":"What does the user need to see in order"},{"startTime":1616.223,"endTime":1619.793,"body":"to either, a, buy this product Yeah."},{"startTime":1619.793,"endTime":1621.803,"body":"Or B, have a good time in this product."},{"startTime":1621.858,"endTime":1623.238,"body":"With this product in it, whatever."},{"startTime":1623.508,"endTime":1627.258,"body":"Did he not also say though, towards"},{"startTime":1623.508,"endTime":1627.258,"body":"the end there that he basically"},{"startTime":1627.263,"endTime":1629.778,"body":"took decision making closer to him?"},{"startTime":1629.988,"endTime":1630.138,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1630.138,"endTime":1634.218,"body":"Well, I, I, I mean, I am willing to"},{"startTime":1630.138,"endTime":1634.218,"body":"give him a pass on, I, well, first of"},{"startTime":1634.218,"endTime":1637.338,"body":"all, we'll listen to the rest of this"},{"startTime":1634.218,"endTime":1637.338,"body":"section, but I'm willing to give him a"},{"startTime":1637.343,"endTime":1640.08,"body":"pass on that for now, because I don't"},{"startTime":1637.343,"endTime":1640.08,"body":"know what employees he has at this"},{"startTime":1640.08,"endTime":1643.2,"body":"point and what their, what their level"},{"startTime":1640.08,"endTime":1643.2,"body":"of experience and their backgrounds."},{"startTime":1643.38,"endTime":1647.0,"body":"So I'm willing to give him a pass on this"},{"startTime":1643.38,"endTime":1647.0,"body":"one because maybe what he's saying is I"},{"startTime":1647.0,"endTime":1649.13,"body":"need constant demos of the application."},{"startTime":1649.4,"endTime":1653.6,"body":"I need to be walking through the"},{"startTime":1649.4,"endTime":1653.6,"body":"application every week to, to explore"},{"startTime":1653.63,"endTime":1659.3,"body":"like a user would l like walk me through"},{"startTime":1653.63,"endTime":1659.3,"body":"the new user experience every week."},{"startTime":1659.6,"endTime":1663.44,"body":"Like if I was a director of product"},{"startTime":1659.6,"endTime":1663.44,"body":"or, for an organization, I would wanna"},{"startTime":1663.44,"endTime":1665.3,"body":"do that every, show me every week."},{"startTime":1665.66,"endTime":1670.58,"body":"I have no problem, like 45 minutes"},{"startTime":1665.66,"endTime":1670.58,"body":"every week, just checking that your"},{"startTime":1670.58,"endTime":1672.304,"body":"new users have a good experience."},{"startTime":1672.604,"endTime":1674.074,"body":"Like, is that too much time to ask?"},{"startTime":1674.074,"endTime":1675.064,"body":"I don't think it is."},{"startTime":1675.514,"endTime":1676.024,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1676.324,"endTime":1679.174,"body":"That that's, that's, that's the"},{"startTime":1676.324,"endTime":1679.174,"body":"equivalent of what I'm hearing right now."},{"startTime":1679.179,"endTime":1680.284,"body":"That's what I think it is."},{"startTime":1680.584,"endTime":1680.794,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1680.794,"endTime":1684.274,"body":"And the timing, this contextual, we"},{"startTime":1680.794,"endTime":1684.274,"body":"haven't heard this, but I'm hoping"},{"startTime":1684.274,"endTime":1686.824,"body":"that his new product marketers mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1687.094,"endTime":1689.764,"body":"As he called them, are"},{"startTime":1687.094,"endTime":1689.764,"body":"actually customer facing."},{"startTime":1689.764,"endTime":1693.004,"body":"They actually speak with customers"},{"startTime":1689.764,"endTime":1693.004,"body":"and not just inward facing."},{"startTime":1693.364,"endTime":1694.834,"body":"That's, that's where it goes down."},{"startTime":1694.834,"endTime":1696.754,"body":"I mean, he's, he's getting a"},{"startTime":1694.834,"endTime":1696.754,"body":"lot of principles from Apple."},{"startTime":1696.754,"endTime":1700.954,"body":"So what I'm assuming is these,"},{"startTime":1696.754,"endTime":1700.954,"body":"these product marketers can sit"},{"startTime":1700.954,"endTime":1703.744,"body":"up in front of a crowd and own"},{"startTime":1700.954,"endTime":1703.744,"body":"it like Steve Jobs did, right."},{"startTime":1703.744,"endTime":1704.644,"body":"He never did."},{"startTime":1704.644,"endTime":1707.149,"body":"Like, and you'll see this all the"},{"startTime":1704.644,"endTime":1707.149,"body":"time, is, when he's showing off his"},{"startTime":1707.149,"endTime":1708.589,"body":"product, he's not showing you APIs."},{"startTime":1708.589,"endTime":1710.959,"body":"He's saying, Hey, users,"},{"startTime":1708.589,"endTime":1710.959,"body":"this is really cool."},{"startTime":1710.959,"endTime":1713.479,"body":"Let me show you when you, when you"},{"startTime":1710.959,"endTime":1713.479,"body":"turn, I mean, he's actually walking"},{"startTime":1713.479,"endTime":1716.119,"body":"through what it's like for the"},{"startTime":1713.479,"endTime":1716.119,"body":"user, but you don't often get that."},{"startTime":1716.119,"endTime":1718.999,"body":"And it's, it's great that"},{"startTime":1716.119,"endTime":1718.999,"body":"he's going to that effect."},{"startTime":1718.999,"endTime":1722.749,"body":"So I'm thinking that the fact that"},{"startTime":1718.999,"endTime":1722.749,"body":"it's more design focused means that"},{"startTime":1722.899,"endTime":1727.519,"body":"the user in mind, but the whole"},{"startTime":1722.899,"endTime":1727.519,"body":"pulling in the decision thing, maybe,"},{"startTime":1727.519,"endTime":1728.749,"body":"maybe he's going through retraining."},{"startTime":1728.749,"endTime":1729.379,"body":"Maybe that's why."},{"startTime":1729.379,"endTime":1734.389,"body":"But I would also ask is like, is"},{"startTime":1729.379,"endTime":1734.389,"body":"make sure you have a backup plan?"},{"startTime":1734.419,"endTime":1736.519,"body":"Like is it like you, you wanna"},{"startTime":1734.419,"endTime":1736.519,"body":"take that week long vacation?"},{"startTime":1736.524,"endTime":1737.089,"body":"Well, you can't."},{"startTime":1737.179,"endTime":1738.649,"body":"And he may say, I don't"},{"startTime":1737.179,"endTime":1738.649,"body":"ever take vacations."},{"startTime":1738.654,"endTime":1739.43,"body":"Well that's great, but mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1739.689,"endTime":1741.289,"body":"But God forbid something were to happen."},{"startTime":1741.294,"endTime":1743.119,"body":"Because if you're the only one"},{"startTime":1741.294,"endTime":1743.119,"body":"that can make a decision in the"},{"startTime":1743.119,"endTime":1746.389,"body":"company, set the expectation of"},{"startTime":1743.119,"endTime":1746.389,"body":"like, this is not the end goal."},{"startTime":1746.394,"endTime":1748.579,"body":"The end goal is not that I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1746.394,"endTime":1748.579,"body":"make every single decision here."},{"startTime":1748.579,"endTime":1750.889,"body":"The end goal is that I'm making"},{"startTime":1748.579,"endTime":1750.889,"body":"the decision for right now."},{"startTime":1751.429,"endTime":1754.009,"body":"Because in the future, I'm gonna trust"},{"startTime":1751.429,"endTime":1754.009,"body":"that you all make the right decision."},{"startTime":1754.009,"endTime":1754.069,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1754.069,"endTime":1755.089,"body":"So I wanna try to help you."},{"startTime":1755.089,"endTime":1755.329,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1755.329,"endTime":1755.569,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1755.689,"endTime":1756.259,"body":"Like, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1756.289,"endTime":1758.359,"body":"That's, that's it comes"},{"startTime":1756.289,"endTime":1758.359,"body":"off really bad at first."},{"startTime":1758.719,"endTime":1759.469,"body":"It it sure does."},{"startTime":1759.469,"endTime":1762.319,"body":"And, but that's the way I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1759.469,"endTime":1762.319,"body":"frame it for now until I hear"},{"startTime":1762.319,"endTime":1763.669,"body":"the rest, until I hear him out."},{"startTime":1763.739,"endTime":1768.169,"body":"I, I, I kind of see this as like,"},{"startTime":1763.739,"endTime":1768.169,"body":"hey, like as the executive that says,"},{"startTime":1768.559,"endTime":1773.479,"body":"add me to all the sprint reviews,"},{"startTime":1768.559,"endTime":1773.479,"body":"just like invite your stakeholders"},{"startTime":1773.479,"endTime":1777.829,"body":"the way you normally do it, but also"},{"startTime":1773.479,"endTime":1777.829,"body":"add me to them, like add me to them."},{"startTime":1777.829,"endTime":1781.819,"body":"And also the executive actually commits"},{"startTime":1777.829,"endTime":1781.819,"body":"to actually being there at all the sprint"},{"startTime":1781.819,"endTime":1785.749,"body":"reviews to kind of engage, the best"},{"startTime":1781.819,"endTime":1785.749,"body":"business leaders that I've ever been"},{"startTime":1785.749,"endTime":1787.789,"body":"coupled with come to a sprint review."},{"startTime":1788.179,"endTime":1791.059,"body":"They give the actual user user."},{"startTime":1791.434,"endTime":1793.894,"body":"Time to expand and talk about"},{"startTime":1791.434,"endTime":1793.894,"body":"what they're doing, and then"},{"startTime":1793.924,"endTime":1795.634,"body":"they won't give direct feedback."},{"startTime":1795.639,"endTime":1799.414,"body":"They will ask the user feedback"},{"startTime":1795.639,"endTime":1799.414,"body":"about what they're seeing."},{"startTime":1799.414,"endTime":1802.984,"body":"Like, Hey, don't you think when you"},{"startTime":1799.414,"endTime":1802.984,"body":"click this would, wouldn't it, wouldn't"},{"startTime":1802.984,"endTime":1806.764,"body":"it have been easier if maybe you"},{"startTime":1802.984,"endTime":1806.764,"body":"could have gone directly to there?"},{"startTime":1806.764,"endTime":1809.134,"body":"Or maybe if you had a button that"},{"startTime":1806.764,"endTime":1809.134,"body":"brought you straight to the screen"},{"startTime":1809.139,"endTime":1811.264,"body":"instead of clicking around, oh,"},{"startTime":1809.139,"endTime":1811.264,"body":"actually now you mentioned it."},{"startTime":1811.264,"endTime":1811.504,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1811.534,"endTime":1815.194,"body":"Like that kind of questions rather"},{"startTime":1811.534,"endTime":1815.194,"body":"than like, you should add this, or, I"},{"startTime":1815.194,"endTime":1816.574,"body":"don't like that this works this way."},{"startTime":1816.574,"endTime":1817.354,"body":"You mean that kind of stuff?"},{"startTime":1817.744,"endTime":1819.784,"body":"I don't know him, his personality."},{"startTime":1819.784,"endTime":1822.844,"body":"I, I've not like watched, I'm not really"},{"startTime":1819.784,"endTime":1822.844,"body":"dug into his background, so I don't know."},{"startTime":1822.849,"endTime":1825.604,"body":"I'm gonna give him the benefit of the"},{"startTime":1822.849,"endTime":1825.604,"body":"doubt now for the purposes of getting"},{"startTime":1825.604,"endTime":1826.834,"body":"through the rest of this, but yeah."},{"startTime":1826.864,"endTime":1827.104,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1827.314,"endTime":1829.924,"body":"I'm on the kind of periphery,"},{"startTime":1827.314,"endTime":1829.924,"body":"the periphery was my"},{"startTime":1829.924,"endTime":1830.824,"body":"calendar word for the day."},{"startTime":1830.974,"endTime":1834.574,"body":"I'm on the periphery of being like,"},{"startTime":1830.974,"endTime":1834.574,"body":"mm, I don't know where you're going."},{"startTime":1834.574,"endTime":1837.874,"body":"With this whole being in the"},{"startTime":1834.574,"endTime":1837.874,"body":"loop on all, all decisions"},{"startTime":1838.114,"endTime":1839.284,"body":"he's busting through right now,"},{"startTime":1839.554,"endTime":1843.694,"body":"created was a shared consciousness of"},{"startTime":1839.554,"endTime":1843.694,"body":"like the top 30, 40 people in the company."},{"startTime":1843.964,"endTime":1845.974,"body":"And it was like one"},{"startTime":1843.964,"endTime":1845.974,"body":"neural network, one brain."},{"startTime":1846.754,"endTime":1849.124,"body":"So all this is what we're doing."},{"startTime":1849.334,"endTime":1853.054,"body":"While people say we're gonna go outta"},{"startTime":1849.334,"endTime":1853.054,"body":"business, something remarkable happens."},{"startTime":1853.534,"endTime":1857.254,"body":"Not only do we not go outta business, but"},{"startTime":1853.534,"endTime":1857.254,"body":"in the last three years we went from a"},{"startTime":1857.254,"endTime":1860.014,"body":"company that was break even to last year."},{"startTime":1860.494,"endTime":1863.584,"body":"We did nearly $4 billion in free cashflow."},{"startTime":1863.704,"endTime":1868.774,"body":"And here money it, it was like, it"},{"startTime":1863.704,"endTime":1868.774,"body":"was totally crazy because like that is"},{"startTime":1868.774,"endTime":1872.644,"body":"actually more free cash flow for every"},{"startTime":1868.774,"endTime":1872.644,"body":"dollar earned than Apple or Google."},{"startTime":1872.944,"endTime":1876.964,"body":"And the crazy thing is, we did that by"},{"startTime":1872.944,"endTime":1876.964,"body":"not trying to make money, but there's"},{"startTime":1876.964,"endTime":1881.374,"body":"something amazing a designer can do"},{"startTime":1876.964,"endTime":1881.374,"body":"more than move pixels on a screen."},{"startTime":1881.914,"endTime":1885.154,"body":"A designer can design a"},{"startTime":1881.914,"endTime":1885.154,"body":"company to have fewer parts."},{"startTime":1885.214,"endTime":1888.429,"body":"So my competitors are, some"},{"startTime":1885.214,"endTime":1888.429,"body":"of them are former CFOs."},{"startTime":1888.939,"endTime":1893.799,"body":"And yet as a designer we were able"},{"startTime":1888.939,"endTime":1893.799,"body":"to imagine a way to save more money"},{"startTime":1893.799,"endTime":1897.249,"body":"because you could design a company"},{"startTime":1893.799,"endTime":1897.249,"body":"with fewer parts, fewer projects."},{"startTime":1897.349,"endTime":1899.749,"body":"Oh, oh, I'm sorry."},{"startTime":1899.779,"endTime":1903.099,"body":"Were you throwing shade on accountants"},{"startTime":1899.779,"endTime":1903.099,"body":"that run companies plenty of companies"},{"startTime":1903.099,"endTime":1906.269,"body":"are run by accountants or former"},{"startTime":1903.099,"endTime":1906.269,"body":"financial people, lot by accountants."},{"startTime":1906.459,"endTime":1906.639,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1906.669,"endTime":1909.099,"body":"Plenty of companies are run by and, and."},{"startTime":1909.444,"endTime":1912.944,"body":"And, I feel he, he just hit on"},{"startTime":1909.444,"endTime":1912.944,"body":"something that probably should be a"},{"startTime":1912.944,"endTime":1916.334,"body":"completely separate podcast in and of"},{"startTime":1912.944,"endTime":1916.334,"body":"itself is like, when the accountants"},{"startTime":1916.339,"endTime":1921.614,"body":"take over the companies, you begin"},{"startTime":1916.339,"endTime":1921.614,"body":"this very slow, long road to decline."},{"startTime":1921.644,"endTime":1923.864,"body":"And then that's where all the"},{"startTime":1921.644,"endTime":1923.864,"body":"disruptors kind of come in and"},{"startTime":1923.864,"endTime":1924.974,"body":"start picking apart pieces."},{"startTime":1924.974,"endTime":1925.124,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1925.604,"endTime":1931.094,"body":"but the crazy part about it is like the,"},{"startTime":1925.604,"endTime":1931.094,"body":"the accountant, the, when, when does the"},{"startTime":1931.099,"endTime":1933.644,"body":"accountant make sense to hold it when"},{"startTime":1931.099,"endTime":1933.644,"body":"they make it all about dollars and cents?"},{"startTime":1933.644,"endTime":1935.414,"body":"Because accountant is gonna be"},{"startTime":1933.644,"endTime":1935.414,"body":"focused on dollars and cents."},{"startTime":1935.414,"endTime":1936.614,"body":"That's what they've"},{"startTime":1935.414,"endTime":1936.614,"body":"done their whole career."},{"startTime":1936.614,"endTime":1936.794,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1936.884,"endTime":1939.074,"body":"He's saying I'm a designer"},{"startTime":1936.884,"endTime":1939.074,"body":"so I can sign an org chart."},{"startTime":1939.464,"endTime":1942.194,"body":"When do you need an accountant to"},{"startTime":1939.464,"endTime":1942.194,"body":"be focused on dollars and cents?"},{"startTime":1943.049,"endTime":1946.289,"body":"You need them in the early stages"},{"startTime":1943.049,"endTime":1946.289,"body":"when you're in startup where money is"},{"startTime":1946.289,"endTime":1948.179,"body":"everything, you don't have excess capital."},{"startTime":1948.239,"endTime":1950.099,"body":"And then the redesign of the organization."},{"startTime":1950.399,"endTime":1952.019,"body":"You need that later on."},{"startTime":1952.559,"endTime":1956.699,"body":"And he's saying some companies are there"},{"startTime":1952.559,"endTime":1956.699,"body":"20, 30, 40, 50 years and now they need it."},{"startTime":1956.699,"endTime":1957.239,"body":"I mean, I get it."},{"startTime":1957.239,"endTime":1959.339,"body":"They go through lulls, but"},{"startTime":1957.239,"endTime":1959.339,"body":"he's talking about his peers."},{"startTime":1959.339,"endTime":1962.069,"body":"He's trying to talk about people"},{"startTime":1959.339,"endTime":1962.069,"body":"who make 4 billion in cashflow."},{"startTime":1962.489,"endTime":1964.229,"body":"Do they have to be money obsessed?"},{"startTime":1964.259,"endTime":1965.219,"body":"No, they really don't."},{"startTime":1965.819,"endTime":1968.729,"body":"So a designer can redesign"},{"startTime":1965.819,"endTime":1968.729,"body":"and look at a organizational"},{"startTime":1968.729,"endTime":1970.679,"body":"chart and design what works."},{"startTime":1970.684,"endTime":1970.749,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":1971.159,"endTime":1974.699,"body":"Maybe, but maybe, yeah, I,"},{"startTime":1971.159,"endTime":1974.699,"body":"I'm, that's what he is saying."},{"startTime":1974.729,"endTime":1976.439,"body":"I'm a very squishy maybe on that one."},{"startTime":1976.439,"endTime":1981.504,"body":"I would rather the financial function"},{"startTime":1976.439,"endTime":1981.504,"body":"be delegated to the teams and have"},{"startTime":1981.504,"endTime":1985.854,"body":"enough finance people to train"},{"startTime":1981.504,"endTime":1985.854,"body":"the teams how to do the finance"},{"startTime":1985.854,"endTime":1990.564,"body":"function, which is a real, like that,"},{"startTime":1985.854,"endTime":1990.564,"body":"that, that concept in like agile"},{"startTime":1990.564,"endTime":1992.934,"body":"software development is like nowhere."},{"startTime":1993.024,"endTime":1993.654,"body":"Just Yeah."},{"startTime":1993.714,"endTime":1993.984,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1994.664,"endTime":1997.824,"body":"It's give me enough accountants to"},{"startTime":1994.664,"endTime":1997.824,"body":"support my teams and tie them back to"},{"startTime":1997.824,"endTime":2001.874,"body":"the business and do the finances of"},{"startTime":1997.824,"endTime":2001.874,"body":"the business on a team by team basis."},{"startTime":2001.874,"endTime":2005.384,"body":"But, uh again, now we're, woo,"},{"startTime":2001.874,"endTime":2005.384,"body":"we're, we're, we're talking"},{"startTime":2005.384,"endTime":2007.484,"body":"crazy talk now we're deep."},{"startTime":2007.689,"endTime":2010.086,"body":"design is much more than a department."},{"startTime":2010.119,"endTime":2011.709,"body":"It's a way of thinking about the world."},{"startTime":2011.949,"endTime":2014.619,"body":"And I think there's a whole new"},{"startTime":2011.949,"endTime":2014.619,"body":"generation of designers that aren't"},{"startTime":2014.619,"endTime":2016.269,"body":"just gonna work for engineers."},{"startTime":2016.389,"endTime":2017.979,"body":"They're gonna sit alongside engineers."},{"startTime":2017.979,"endTime":2020.109,"body":"They're not just gonna be told"},{"startTime":2017.979,"endTime":2020.109,"body":"what to do by product managers."},{"startTime":2020.289,"endTime":2021.999,"body":"They are gonna be helping"},{"startTime":2020.289,"endTime":2021.999,"body":"drive the product."},{"startTime":2022.119,"endTime":2026.619,"body":"And some of them are gonna choose to drive"},{"startTime":2022.119,"endTime":2026.619,"body":"companies because ultimately what everyone"},{"startTime":2026.619,"endTime":2029.049,"body":"wants is to have a product people love."},{"startTime":2029.099,"endTime":2031.409,"body":"And so that's kind of"},{"startTime":2029.099,"endTime":2031.409,"body":"our story of what we did."},{"startTime":2031.439,"endTime":2032.959,"body":"again, some of this is cultural."},{"startTime":2032.959,"endTime":2037.009,"body":"Like you, the, the product managers"},{"startTime":2032.959,"endTime":2037.009,"body":"tell the designers what to design I"},{"startTime":2037.014,"endTime":2041.859,"body":"mean, hey, go design this, this style"},{"startTime":2037.014,"endTime":2041.859,"body":"page, or this clip art or whatever."},{"startTime":2041.864,"endTime":2045.699,"body":"I think about it as, I wanna say clip"},{"startTime":2041.864,"endTime":2045.699,"body":"art, cause I love that term clippy, rather"},{"startTime":2045.699,"endTime":2048.609,"body":"than like, deal with them as partners."},{"startTime":2048.609,"endTime":2051.399,"body":"Like the designers are not"},{"startTime":2048.609,"endTime":2051.399,"body":"equal to the product managers."},{"startTime":2051.399,"endTime":2055.059,"body":"And you know, just in the same"},{"startTime":2051.399,"endTime":2055.059,"body":"way that the developers would not"},{"startTime":2055.064,"endTime":2056.589,"body":"be equal to the product manager."},{"startTime":2056.589,"endTime":2059.049,"body":"Like, you probably should fix that"},{"startTime":2056.589,"endTime":2059.049,"body":"in your organization where they're"},{"startTime":2059.049,"endTime":2063.009,"body":"just peers collaborating together"},{"startTime":2059.049,"endTime":2063.009,"body":"to design the best products."},{"startTime":2063.009,"endTime":2066.009,"body":"But it sounds like in, in his"},{"startTime":2063.009,"endTime":2066.009,"body":"particular scenario, he is"},{"startTime":2066.014,"endTime":2067.509,"body":"going the opposite way really."},{"startTime":2068.324,"endTime":2069.684,"body":"At least that's my take on it, right?"},{"startTime":2069.684,"endTime":2071.694,"body":"No, I think he's, he's"},{"startTime":2069.684,"endTime":2071.694,"body":"lobbying to move away."},{"startTime":2071.754,"endTime":2075.329,"body":"I think he's saying that they had had"},{"startTime":2071.754,"endTime":2075.329,"body":"this kind of imbalance where the product"},{"startTime":2075.329,"endTime":2076.859,"body":"manager kind of told people what to do."},{"startTime":2076.864,"endTime":2077.269,"body":"Oh, I see."},{"startTime":2077.269,"endTime":2077.389,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2077.394,"endTime":2080.069,"body":"And they're, and they're, and he's"},{"startTime":2077.394,"endTime":2080.069,"body":"lobbying for the designers to be"},{"startTime":2080.069,"endTime":2081.479,"body":"equals and that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2081.479,"endTime":2082.079,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":2082.084,"endTime":2085.469,"body":"I would add one, amend his"},{"startTime":2082.084,"endTime":2085.469,"body":"statement on one thing is everybody"},{"startTime":2085.469,"endTime":2086.549,"body":"wants a product that they love."},{"startTime":2086.549,"endTime":2089.879,"body":"I would say everybody wants a profitable"},{"startTime":2086.549,"endTime":2089.879,"body":"product that they love, because if"},{"startTime":2089.879,"endTime":2093.269,"body":"all you care about is love, I see"},{"startTime":2089.879,"endTime":2093.269,"body":"people walking away from products that"},{"startTime":2093.269,"endTime":2096.359,"body":"they love or that people love all the"},{"startTime":2093.269,"endTime":2096.359,"body":"time because it's not sustainable."},{"startTime":2097.499,"endTime":2098.579,"body":"The crux of everything."},{"startTime":2098.584,"endTime":2102.059,"body":"I mean, it's, there's, there's still a"},{"startTime":2098.584,"endTime":2102.059,"body":"dollar and cent component to it that the"},{"startTime":2102.059,"endTime":2103.979,"body":"love is not the enlist end all be all."},{"startTime":2103.979,"endTime":2107.189,"body":"And he may say, that goes without"},{"startTime":2103.979,"endTime":2107.189,"body":"saying, but you know, you, you"},{"startTime":2107.189,"endTime":2108.299,"body":"kind of didn't really say that."},{"startTime":2108.304,"endTime":2109.169,"body":"It's like, designers can do that."},{"startTime":2109.174,"endTime":2111.539,"body":"You gotta have money at the root"},{"startTime":2109.174,"endTime":2111.539,"body":"of it, but as long as you take"},{"startTime":2111.544,"endTime":2114.149,"body":"care of it, then you're, I don't"},{"startTime":2111.544,"endTime":2114.149,"body":"think he, I don't think he does."},{"startTime":2114.299,"endTime":2115.039,"body":"I don't think he does."},{"startTime":2115.109,"endTime":2115.919,"body":"You don't think he likes money?"},{"startTime":2115.989,"endTime":2117.514,"body":"I, I think he does like money."},{"startTime":2117.814,"endTime":2119.254,"body":"You're like, no AB test."},{"startTime":2119.254,"endTime":2121.294,"body":"And people are like, should I applaud?"},{"startTime":2121.294,"endTime":2122.134,"body":"Limited, limited?"},{"startTime":2122.139,"endTime":2122.794,"body":"I, I don't know."},{"startTime":2123.604,"endTime":2126.454,"body":"We do a controlled treatment, it's"},{"startTime":2123.604,"endTime":2126.454,"body":"not like we don't, well, I thought"},{"startTime":2126.454,"endTime":2127.744,"body":"you, we don't have a hypothesis."},{"startTime":2127.744,"endTime":2128.224,"body":"Responsibility."},{"startTime":2128.314,"endTime":2129.244,"body":"Have a hypothesis."},{"startTime":2129.634,"endTime":2133.084,"body":"Think by first principles and"},{"startTime":2129.634,"endTime":2133.084,"body":"metrics are not a strategy."},{"startTime":2133.234,"endTime":2134.584,"body":"A strategy is not growing."},{"startTime":2134.584,"endTime":2135.514,"body":"That's not a strategy."},{"startTime":2135.544,"endTime":2136.174,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2136.204,"endTime":2138.214,"body":"That's not a strategy we all wanna grow."},{"startTime":2138.364,"endTime":2142.104,"body":"But a strategy, we talk about putting"},{"startTime":2138.364,"endTime":2142.104,"body":"your arms around the entire company."},{"startTime":2142.554,"endTime":2147.354,"body":"We try to have one small design"},{"startTime":2142.554,"endTime":2147.354,"body":"team that sees the entire product."},{"startTime":2147.504,"endTime":2150.324,"body":"And this is critical because"},{"startTime":2147.504,"endTime":2150.324,"body":"if you have an idea, it's like"},{"startTime":2150.324,"endTime":2151.734,"body":"pulling on a string of a shirt."},{"startTime":2152.034,"endTime":2155.034,"body":"If you are contained to one"},{"startTime":2152.034,"endTime":2155.034,"body":"surface, then you've gotta get"},{"startTime":2155.034,"endTime":2157.464,"body":"the entire company on board."},{"startTime":2157.524,"endTime":2160.884,"body":"And so that's why I think this"},{"startTime":2157.524,"endTime":2160.884,"body":"integrated approach is so important."},{"startTime":2161.184,"endTime":2166.104,"body":"also translated, to design thinking,"},{"startTime":2161.184,"endTime":2166.104,"body":"like why design thinking is important."},{"startTime":2166.374,"endTime":2170.319,"body":"Because if you, if you whole company"},{"startTime":2166.374,"endTime":2170.319,"body":"supports one product, Even if that"},{"startTime":2170.319,"endTime":2173.889,"body":"product is, like some interactions"},{"startTime":2170.319,"endTime":2173.889,"body":"are API and some interactions are"},{"startTime":2174.219,"endTime":2177.069,"body":"integrations, whether the products"},{"startTime":2174.219,"endTime":2177.069,"body":"and some interactions, your mobile"},{"startTime":2177.069,"endTime":2179.769,"body":"app, some interactions or desktop or"},{"startTime":2177.069,"endTime":2179.769,"body":"whatever, I don't even know if they"},{"startTime":2179.769,"endTime":2181.029,"body":"really have a desktop application."},{"startTime":2181.769,"endTime":2187.179,"body":"Yes, you do need to make sure that the"},{"startTime":2181.769,"endTime":2187.179,"body":"whole system is evolving together and,"},{"startTime":2187.179,"endTime":2191.589,"body":"and you need to, whatever sets your"},{"startTime":2187.179,"endTime":2191.589,"body":"roadmap, roadmaps, roadmap, needs to"},{"startTime":2191.829,"endTime":2194.499,"body":"take into consideration the whole, well,"},{"startTime":2191.829,"endTime":2194.499,"body":"he's talking about systems thinking"},{"startTime":2194.499,"endTime":2197.019,"body":"right now, and he's not using the term,"},{"startTime":2194.499,"endTime":2197.019,"body":"but that's what, that's what he said."},{"startTime":2197.024,"endTime":2197.369,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2197.369,"endTime":2199.539,"body":"That's what, that's what I was"},{"startTime":2197.369,"endTime":2199.539,"body":"thinking about when he said that."},{"startTime":2199.539,"endTime":2200.919,"body":"He was like, this is systems thinking."},{"startTime":2201.189,"endTime":2201.609,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2201.729,"endTime":2204.309,"body":"Well, the, and he, and he"},{"startTime":2201.729,"endTime":2204.309,"body":"said, what, what'd he say?"},{"startTime":2204.309,"endTime":2206.439,"body":"Metrics, metrics aren't a strategy."},{"startTime":2206.439,"endTime":2207.169,"body":"I, I like that."},{"startTime":2207.169,"endTime":2207.409,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2207.414,"endTime":2207.459,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2207.519,"endTime":2210.819,"body":"I think that's, I think that's awesome"},{"startTime":2207.519,"endTime":2210.819,"body":"because metrics support your strategy."},{"startTime":2210.819,"endTime":2212.199,"body":"It's not your strategy."},{"startTime":2212.439,"endTime":2216.369,"body":"Metrics are the measurement on how close"},{"startTime":2212.439,"endTime":2216.369,"body":"you are to either achieving your goals or"},{"startTime":2216.369,"endTime":2218.619,"body":"hitting your strategy, and I like that."},{"startTime":2218.769,"endTime":2218.949,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2218.954,"endTime":2221.349,"body":"I'm, I'm probably gonna steal"},{"startTime":2218.954,"endTime":2221.349,"body":"that one, so I, I agree with that."},{"startTime":2221.349,"endTime":2221.35,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2221.469,"endTime":2221.739,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2221.859,"endTime":2223.659,"body":"Well, you're not gonna make"},{"startTime":2221.859,"endTime":2223.659,"body":"any friends with metrics."},{"startTime":2223.721,"endTime":2226.121,"body":"how do you push for a"},{"startTime":2223.721,"endTime":2226.121,"body":"design driven strategy?"},{"startTime":2226.421,"endTime":2231.731,"body":"There's something interesting I noticed"},{"startTime":2226.421,"endTime":2231.731,"body":"lawyers never have to justify their job."},{"startTime":2232.031,"endTime":2235.931,"body":"Like, well, I'm a, or a cfo doesn't have"},{"startTime":2232.031,"endTime":2235.931,"body":"to justify like, why you need a cfo."},{"startTime":2236.231,"endTime":2238.781,"body":"And there's very few functions"},{"startTime":2236.231,"endTime":2238.781,"body":"where people feel like they have"},{"startTime":2238.781,"endTime":2240.371,"body":"to constantly justify their job."},{"startTime":2240.581,"endTime":2242.621,"body":"And designers seem to constantly do it."},{"startTime":2242.861,"endTime":2245.051,"body":"Designers seem to constantly"},{"startTime":2242.861,"endTime":2245.051,"body":"justify their job."},{"startTime":2245.561,"endTime":2245.801,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":2246.041,"endTime":2248.621,"body":"I think that designers are probably"},{"startTime":2246.041,"endTime":2248.621,"body":"a little too self-conscious."},{"startTime":2249.236,"endTime":2252.446,"body":"I think the designers should have a"},{"startTime":2249.236,"endTime":2252.446,"body":"nerve and they should ask themselves"},{"startTime":2252.446,"endTime":2253.886,"body":"like, what are we trying to solve?"},{"startTime":2254.126,"endTime":2256.436,"body":"And be a little less compromising."},{"startTime":2256.436,"endTime":2259.856,"body":"I don't mean to be completely"},{"startTime":2256.436,"endTime":2259.856,"body":"difficult inside the company, but"},{"startTime":2259.856,"endTime":2263.606,"body":"I think that design as a function"},{"startTime":2259.856,"endTime":2263.606,"body":"has probably seeded too much ground."},{"startTime":2263.876,"endTime":2267.206,"body":"You know, again, in many companies"},{"startTime":2263.876,"endTime":2267.206,"body":"like architects don't seem to have"},{"startTime":2267.206,"endTime":2270.266,"body":"this problem because there's like"},{"startTime":2267.206,"endTime":2270.266,"body":"a thousand years of history around"},{"startTime":2270.266,"endTime":2274.016,"body":"that field, but we designers, a"},{"startTime":2270.266,"endTime":2274.016,"body":"lot of us came late to the party."},{"startTime":2274.196,"endTime":2277.316,"body":"Web designers came after software"},{"startTime":2274.196,"endTime":2277.316,"body":"designers and a lot of the great"},{"startTime":2277.316,"endTime":2279.626,"body":"designers stayed in print in other areas."},{"startTime":2279.806,"endTime":2283.466,"body":"And so these entire functions, like"},{"startTime":2279.806,"endTime":2283.466,"body":"product management got built before a"},{"startTime":2283.471,"endTime":2284.936,"body":"lot of the design department came in."},{"startTime":2285.116,"endTime":2288.086,"body":"Make no mistake, product managers"},{"startTime":2285.116,"endTime":2288.086,"body":"are critical, but they shouldn't"},{"startTime":2288.086,"endTime":2289.496,"body":"be doing the job of designer."},{"startTime":2289.796,"endTime":2294.326,"body":"And so I think that it's really"},{"startTime":2289.796,"endTime":2294.326,"body":"important to really like focus"},{"startTime":2294.326,"endTime":2296.576,"body":"on a number of principles."},{"startTime":2297.176,"endTime":2297.896,"body":"Before he goes off."},{"startTime":2298.391,"endTime":2303.094,"body":"I, I do think that product"},{"startTime":2298.391,"endTime":2303.094,"body":"managers do, the designer job"},{"startTime":2303.184,"endTime":2304.414,"body":"in the smallest companies."},{"startTime":2304.774,"endTime":2306.754,"body":"Like the smallest companies"},{"startTime":2304.774,"endTime":2306.754,"body":"don't have designers."},{"startTime":2307.144,"endTime":2308.074,"body":"They have product managers."},{"startTime":2308.074,"endTime":2311.164,"body":"And the product managers have"},{"startTime":2308.074,"endTime":2311.164,"body":"the, or actually they might"},{"startTime":2311.164,"endTime":2312.544,"body":"not even have product managers."},{"startTime":2312.784,"endTime":2316.654,"body":"They probably have founders who"},{"startTime":2312.784,"endTime":2316.654,"body":"do this job because founders"},{"startTime":2316.654,"endTime":2317.614,"body":"do every job they have."},{"startTime":2317.614,"endTime":2318.094,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2318.334,"endTime":2320.614,"body":"They have a specific"},{"startTime":2318.334,"endTime":2320.614,"body":"vision for their company."},{"startTime":2320.974,"endTime":2325.534,"body":"So I'm sort of on the fence"},{"startTime":2320.974,"endTime":2325.534,"body":"about what he's saying."},{"startTime":2325.624,"endTime":2329.314,"body":"I'm, I'm kind of, one, I'm going back"},{"startTime":2325.624,"endTime":2329.314,"body":"to it's like, wait, didn't, you said"},{"startTime":2329.319,"endTime":2331.534,"body":"you were getting rid of all the managers"},{"startTime":2329.319,"endTime":2331.534,"body":"and putting the designers there."},{"startTime":2331.534,"endTime":2334.434,"body":"So it's like, and in this scenario"},{"startTime":2331.534,"endTime":2334.434,"body":"you just created where the the"},{"startTime":2334.434,"endTime":2336.024,"body":"product manager is the designer."},{"startTime":2336.054,"endTime":2337.404,"body":"You, you just created that."},{"startTime":2337.404,"endTime":2340.914,"body":"It's, is I, if I'm understanding"},{"startTime":2337.404,"endTime":2340.914,"body":"what he said before, he is get"},{"startTime":2340.914,"endTime":2341.724,"body":"rid of the product managers."},{"startTime":2341.724,"endTime":2342.654,"body":"I'm gonna put designers there."},{"startTime":2342.654,"endTime":2345.834,"body":"And it's like, well, they're, they're,"},{"startTime":2342.654,"endTime":2345.834,"body":"they're peers in his organization now."},{"startTime":2345.894,"endTime":2349.404,"body":"They're peers in his, but again, his"},{"startTime":2345.894,"endTime":2349.404,"body":"organization is lucky enough to have,"},{"startTime":2349.554,"endTime":2352.704,"body":"for every product manager you have a,"},{"startTime":2349.554,"endTime":2352.704,"body":"you're coupled with a designer peer."},{"startTime":2353.469,"endTime":2353.889,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2353.889,"endTime":2356.769,"body":"And, but he's, but he's not"},{"startTime":2353.889,"endTime":2356.769,"body":"wrong as justifying the job."},{"startTime":2356.769,"endTime":2359.019,"body":"I think that's, that's"},{"startTime":2356.769,"endTime":2359.019,"body":"an accurate assessment."},{"startTime":2359.019,"endTime":2359.289,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2360.189,"endTime":2361.749,"body":"I could apply that to a"},{"startTime":2360.189,"endTime":2361.749,"body":"lot of different positions."},{"startTime":2361.754,"endTime":2364.299,"body":"There's a lot of positions"},{"startTime":2361.754,"endTime":2364.299,"body":"that, that have to do that."},{"startTime":2364.299,"endTime":2369.219,"body":"And there's some that, like testers"},{"startTime":2364.299,"endTime":2369.219,"body":"often have to justify the job, but"},{"startTime":2369.224,"endTime":2370.959,"body":"they will never get rid of a tester."},{"startTime":2370.959,"endTime":2373.629,"body":"There are other jobs where"},{"startTime":2370.959,"endTime":2373.629,"body":"you have to justify your job"},{"startTime":2373.629,"endTime":2374.919,"body":"and they will get rid of it."},{"startTime":2375.219,"endTime":2376.719,"body":"High Capital one looking at you."},{"startTime":2376.719,"endTime":2376.809,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2377.049,"endTime":2377.109,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2377.109,"endTime":2377.199,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2377.919,"endTime":2379.419,"body":"They will absolutely get rid of your job."},{"startTime":2379.419,"endTime":2384.039,"body":"And it's, it's not wrong if you want to"},{"startTime":2379.419,"endTime":2384.039,"body":"take and lead your company down a path,"},{"startTime":2384.044,"endTime":2387.439,"body":"like you can't fault someone for saying,"},{"startTime":2384.044,"endTime":2387.439,"body":"Hey we're gonna restructure how we are."},{"startTime":2387.469,"endTime":2387.529,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2387.529,"endTime":2389.239,"body":"And these jobs just aren't"},{"startTime":2387.529,"endTime":2389.239,"body":"part of our new structure."},{"startTime":2389.449,"endTime":2389.899,"body":"Love it."},{"startTime":2390.049,"endTime":2390.679,"body":"You're a leader."},{"startTime":2390.679,"endTime":2392.299,"body":"You make a change, you stick by it."},{"startTime":2392.299,"endTime":2393.409,"body":"You're a leader, that's fine."},{"startTime":2393.739,"endTime":2398.329,"body":"But in his scenarios, I, I don't like"},{"startTime":2393.739,"endTime":2398.329,"body":"the analogy of architects have been"},{"startTime":2398.329,"endTime":2399.379,"body":"here for a while, so they've got it."},{"startTime":2399.379,"endTime":2402.199,"body":"And now, He keeps saying the word nerve."},{"startTime":2402.199,"endTime":2403.909,"body":"By the way, we're at, we're at count six."},{"startTime":2403.909,"endTime":2406.099,"body":"He keeps, I think he's up to"},{"startTime":2403.909,"endTime":2406.099,"body":"over 10 for this whole thing."},{"startTime":2406.099,"endTime":2408.319,"body":"So just make sure there's"},{"startTime":2406.099,"endTime":2408.319,"body":"a nerve count on, thing."},{"startTime":2408.324,"endTime":2412.479,"body":"But he drops that and when he can that"},{"startTime":2408.324,"endTime":2412.479,"body":"you need to have nerve, everybody can"},{"startTime":2412.479,"endTime":2414.109,"body":"go to bat for their job at the table."},{"startTime":2414.169,"endTime":2414.349,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2414.649,"endTime":2417.709,"body":"I just, I don't know if they make"},{"startTime":2414.649,"endTime":2417.709,"body":"that decision and just try to say"},{"startTime":2417.709,"endTime":2420.529,"body":"you want to have more nerve, which is"},{"startTime":2417.709,"endTime":2420.529,"body":"kind of me be more steadfast or more"},{"startTime":2420.539,"endTime":2422.219,"body":"stubborn, I guess stubborn in your ways."},{"startTime":2422.319,"endTime":2423.579,"body":"I don't really think you're"},{"startTime":2422.319,"endTime":2423.579,"body":"gonna make that call."},{"startTime":2423.584,"endTime":2425.349,"body":"I don't think you're gonna"},{"startTime":2423.584,"endTime":2425.349,"body":"win more friends that way."},{"startTime":2425.679,"endTime":2429.369,"body":"What you're gonna have to do is come up"},{"startTime":2425.679,"endTime":2429.369,"body":"with, the people who make that decision."},{"startTime":2429.419,"endTime":2433.109,"body":"You're gonna have to use metrics,"},{"startTime":2429.419,"endTime":2433.109,"body":"numbers to justify your job."},{"startTime":2433.109,"endTime":2435.509,"body":"So you're not fighting by being stubborn."},{"startTime":2435.509,"endTime":2437.069,"body":"You're gonna have to meet 'em"},{"startTime":2435.509,"endTime":2437.069,"body":"where they're at and you're gonna"},{"startTime":2437.069,"endTime":2438.329,"body":"start talking dollars and cents."},{"startTime":2438.479,"endTime":2441.689,"body":"If we do this feature, we will save"},{"startTime":2438.479,"endTime":2441.689,"body":"x amount of time, which translates"},{"startTime":2441.694,"endTime":2442.829,"body":"to X amount of money saving."},{"startTime":2442.829,"endTime":2446.159,"body":"Cause you're just gonna have to do it at"},{"startTime":2442.829,"endTime":2446.159,"body":"being stubborn is not gonna satisfy that."},{"startTime":2446.164,"endTime":2446.209,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2446.309,"endTime":2447.569,"body":"You gotta meet them where they stand."},{"startTime":2448.619,"endTime":2448.979,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2449.039,"endTime":2450.509,"body":"We are, we're off of pause."},{"startTime":2450.509,"endTime":2453.089,"body":"Think that designer should not"},{"startTime":2450.509,"endTime":2453.089,"body":"be just focused on services."},{"startTime":2453.239,"endTime":2454.859,"body":"They should be focused on user flows."},{"startTime":2455.219,"endTime":2457.949,"body":"I think they should only ship"},{"startTime":2455.219,"endTime":2457.949,"body":"something that you're proud of."},{"startTime":2457.949,"endTime":2461.549,"body":"Don't test something until after"},{"startTime":2457.949,"endTime":2461.549,"body":"you're happy, because ultimately"},{"startTime":2461.549,"endTime":2464.999,"body":"the artist, and you should first and"},{"startTime":2461.549,"endTime":2464.999,"body":"foremost make something for yourself."},{"startTime":2465.029,"endTime":2467.489,"body":"And when you love it and you're"},{"startTime":2465.029,"endTime":2467.489,"body":"proud of it, now you're ready"},{"startTime":2467.489,"endTime":2469.109,"body":"to put it out to somebody else."},{"startTime":2469.169,"endTime":2473.969,"body":"I think that designers should be trying"},{"startTime":2469.169,"endTime":2473.969,"body":"to simplify every single thing they do."},{"startTime":2474.374,"endTime":2477.644,"body":"And then I think if you're in an"},{"startTime":2474.374,"endTime":2477.644,"body":"organization, you have to use their"},{"startTime":2477.644,"endTime":2480.374,"body":"language and explain why it benefits them."},{"startTime":2480.554,"endTime":2483.644,"body":"If people love our products, they're"},{"startTime":2480.554,"endTime":2483.644,"body":"gonna wanna buy more of them."},{"startTime":2483.764,"endTime":2485.174,"body":"What is the goal we're trying to do?"},{"startTime":2485.179,"endTime":2486.614,"body":"Well, the goal is we"},{"startTime":2485.179,"endTime":2486.614,"body":"need to grow this thing."},{"startTime":2486.614,"endTime":2487.844,"body":"Well, why do we need to grow this thing?"},{"startTime":2487.844,"endTime":2489.044,"body":"Growth is not a goal."},{"startTime":2489.524,"endTime":2492.794,"body":"Growth is just a direction like,"},{"startTime":2489.524,"endTime":2492.794,"body":"like that can't be just a goal."},{"startTime":2493.094,"endTime":2494.624,"body":"And so these are some of the things."},{"startTime":2495.284,"endTime":2496.274,"body":"Shots fired right there."},{"startTime":2496.324,"endTime":2497.434,"body":"Growth is not a goal."},{"startTime":2497.614,"endTime":2498.034,"body":"Woo."},{"startTime":2498.424,"endTime":2501.394,"body":"That's so many companies are"},{"startTime":2498.424,"endTime":2501.394,"body":"working in that way though."},{"startTime":2501.399,"endTime":2502.054,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":2502.504,"endTime":2503.884,"body":"And, and growth."},{"startTime":2504.064,"endTime":2505.864,"body":"Growth doesn't equal profitability."},{"startTime":2505.864,"endTime":2505.924,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2506.014,"endTime":2508.924,"body":"Some people outgrow themselves,"},{"startTime":2506.014,"endTime":2508.924,"body":"which created a mountain of debt."},{"startTime":2509.014,"endTime":2510.004,"body":"I agree with it."},{"startTime":2510.034,"endTime":2510.154,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2510.154,"endTime":2515.194,"body":"It's a metric to track something, but"},{"startTime":2510.154,"endTime":2515.194,"body":"you do need a goal outside of that growth"},{"startTime":2515.194,"endTime":2517.264,"body":"should support whatever your goal is."},{"startTime":2517.269,"endTime":2517.324,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2517.384,"endTime":2519.617,"body":"That's, Jim Collins, why the Mighty Fall?"},{"startTime":2519.622,"endTime":2521.777,"body":"We did, we did a podcast on Jim Collins."},{"startTime":2521.782,"endTime":2522.347,"body":"Why The Mighty Fall?"},{"startTime":2522.377,"endTime":2526.607,"body":"And that was one of his thing is the,"},{"startTime":2522.377,"endTime":2526.607,"body":"the, the undisciplined pursuit of growth."},{"startTime":2526.907,"endTime":2530.447,"body":"Like for no other purpose than"},{"startTime":2526.907,"endTime":2530.447,"body":"we wanna grow Single-minded."},{"startTime":2530.477,"endTime":2530.657,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2530.807,"endTime":2531.017,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2531.017,"endTime":2531.257,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2531.317,"endTime":2535.007,"body":"I mean, honestly, it comes down to ego"},{"startTime":2531.317,"endTime":2535.007,"body":"of like, we want to be I don't wanna be"},{"startTime":2535.007,"endTime":2537.407,"body":"in charge of a bigger boat or whatever."},{"startTime":2537.407,"endTime":2539.077,"body":"Like why, why?"},{"startTime":2539.082,"endTime":2541.797,"body":"Well, isn't that, that's kind of"},{"startTime":2539.082,"endTime":2541.797,"body":"what Musk did with Tesla at some"},{"startTime":2541.797,"endTime":2543.267,"body":"point they wanted just keep growing."},{"startTime":2543.567,"endTime":2546.207,"body":"And then when he was asked Hey,"},{"startTime":2543.567,"endTime":2546.207,"body":"why do you have, why are you eight?"},{"startTime":2547.107,"endTime":2548.937,"body":"10 quarters in the red, I think it was."},{"startTime":2548.967,"endTime":2549.057,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2549.507,"endTime":2551.817,"body":"He goes, we'll figure out how"},{"startTime":2549.507,"endTime":2551.817,"body":"to become profitable later."},{"startTime":2551.817,"endTime":2553.287,"body":"Right Now we just gotta get out there."},{"startTime":2553.287,"endTime":2555.987,"body":"And I mean, like yeah, it did"},{"startTime":2553.287,"endTime":2555.987,"body":"it eventually work for him?"},{"startTime":2555.987,"endTime":2556.527,"body":"It does."},{"startTime":2556.617,"endTime":2558.267,"body":"Not everyone has that capital coming in."},{"startTime":2558.297,"endTime":2558.387,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2558.657,"endTime":2558.957,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2559.227,"endTime":2562.227,"body":"I mean that's a, that's a unique"},{"startTime":2559.227,"endTime":2562.227,"body":"position, but also it's any of these"},{"startTime":2562.227,"endTime":2564.957,"body":"Silicone Valley folks that are out"},{"startTime":2562.227,"endTime":2564.957,"body":"here, like that's their thinking."},{"startTime":2564.957,"endTime":2569.187,"body":"Their thinking is, we we're here to"},{"startTime":2564.957,"endTime":2569.187,"body":"corner a market, and be the first ones"},{"startTime":2569.187,"endTime":2573.367,"body":"and corner the whole market and be,"},{"startTime":2569.187,"endTime":2573.367,"body":"and be the the verb or noun, whatever,"},{"startTime":2573.667,"endTime":2576.547,"body":"like basically you don't, you don't"},{"startTime":2573.667,"endTime":2576.547,"body":"say, I'm gonna make a photocopy."},{"startTime":2576.547,"endTime":2577.687,"body":"You say, I'm gonna Xerox."},{"startTime":2577.747,"endTime":2578.077,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2578.077,"endTime":2578.317,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2578.317,"endTime":2580.957,"body":"You like the, you use the"},{"startTime":2578.317,"endTime":2580.957,"body":"company as the noun, right?"},{"startTime":2581.007,"endTime":2585.237,"body":"And so the best thing for engineers and"},{"startTime":2581.007,"endTime":2585.237,"body":"the best thing for PMs is to pair them"},{"startTime":2585.242,"endTime":2588.927,"body":"with great design from the beginning"},{"startTime":2585.242,"endTime":2588.927,"body":"because a lot of companies, design"},{"startTime":2588.927,"endTime":2590.787,"body":"has become a service organization."},{"startTime":2591.282,"endTime":2591.522,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":2591.582,"endTime":2594.582,"body":"Design should not be a service"},{"startTime":2591.582,"endTime":2594.582,"body":"organization unless that is"},{"startTime":2594.612,"endTime":2596.442,"body":"explicitly the intention of ceo."},{"startTime":2596.712,"endTime":2600.462,"body":"And that means it's not your job to catch"},{"startTime":2596.712,"endTime":2600.462,"body":"things, to stop them before it goes out."},{"startTime":2600.672,"endTime":2604.902,"body":"It means it's your job to work from the"},{"startTime":2600.672,"endTime":2604.902,"body":"very beginning that design challenges"},{"startTime":2604.907,"endTime":2607.092,"body":"technology and technology inspires art."},{"startTime":2607.302,"endTime":2609.402,"body":"It's a perfect harmony"},{"startTime":2607.302,"endTime":2609.402,"body":"from the very beginning."},{"startTime":2609.472,"endTime":2613.612,"body":"I'm gonna stop him there because"},{"startTime":2609.472,"endTime":2613.612,"body":"it again, he's back on his"},{"startTime":2613.662,"endTime":2616.452,"body":"Organizational design diatribe."},{"startTime":2616.552,"endTime":2619.903,"body":"I think a data science the same way"},{"startTime":2616.552,"endTime":2619.903,"body":"cuz data science is like a skill, even"},{"startTime":2619.903,"endTime":2622.843,"body":"if you wanted to hire a half a dozen"},{"startTime":2619.903,"endTime":2622.843,"body":"of them and embed them in all of your"},{"startTime":2622.843,"endTime":2627.598,"body":"teams, I mean, where would you even"},{"startTime":2622.843,"endTime":2627.598,"body":"find that many people on the market?"},{"startTime":2627.628,"endTime":2628.078,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2628.108,"endTime":2631.318,"body":"Like good people on the market with"},{"startTime":2628.108,"endTime":2631.318,"body":"experience, you probably would have a"},{"startTime":2631.318,"endTime":2633.268,"body":"real difficult time trying to do it."},{"startTime":2633.268,"endTime":2637.288,"body":"So I completely understand why companies"},{"startTime":2633.268,"endTime":2637.288,"body":"get in the mode of saying like, well,"},{"startTime":2637.288,"endTime":2641.398,"body":"I'm gonna hire one UI U x two three"},{"startTime":2637.288,"endTime":2641.398,"body":"ui UX people and park them over here"},{"startTime":2641.398,"endTime":2645.058,"body":"in the UIUX department, and then when"},{"startTime":2641.398,"endTime":2645.058,"body":"you need them, we'll dedicate them to"},{"startTime":2645.058,"endTime":2648.448,"body":"your team for like a sprint or two, and"},{"startTime":2645.058,"endTime":2648.448,"body":"then they'll knock out all the, all the"},{"startTime":2648.448,"endTime":2651.598,"body":"plans up front and all the wire frames"},{"startTime":2648.448,"endTime":2651.598,"body":"up front, and then you guys can do all"},{"startTime":2651.598,"endTime":2654.578,"body":"the design, whatever, and then we'll"},{"startTime":2651.598,"endTime":2654.578,"body":"send it to the you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2654.583,"endTime":2656.528,"body":"Like that classic shared services model."},{"startTime":2656.528,"endTime":2657.218,"body":"Classic."},{"startTime":2657.248,"endTime":2658.508,"body":"It's absolutely classic."},{"startTime":2658.538,"endTime":2658.928,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2658.928,"endTime":2658.929,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2659.198,"endTime":2663.018,"body":"And it's the age old thing that I"},{"startTime":2659.198,"endTime":2663.018,"body":"always hear is the shared services"},{"startTime":2663.018,"endTime":2667.248,"body":"model, and then they go like, Hey,"},{"startTime":2663.018,"endTime":2667.248,"body":"UX person, you can drop off the call."},{"startTime":2667.368,"endTime":2667.788,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2667.794,"endTime":2670.878,"body":"Hey, I love our UX designer, but you gotta"},{"startTime":2667.794,"endTime":2670.878,"body":"be careful with them, they'll, they'll"},{"startTime":2670.883,"endTime":2672.258,"body":"run your costs up through the roof, right?"},{"startTime":2672.318,"endTime":2672.438,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2672.678,"endTime":2675.618,"body":"It's like, are they really, or"},{"startTime":2672.678,"endTime":2675.618,"body":"are they trying to save you money?"},{"startTime":2675.618,"endTime":2675.858,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2675.858,"endTime":2675.948,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2676.188,"endTime":2678.228,"body":"Because I'm like, I would say"},{"startTime":2676.188,"endTime":2678.228,"body":"that it's probably a lot more"},{"startTime":2678.228,"endTime":2679.578,"body":"expensive the other way, but Right."},{"startTime":2680.043,"endTime":2684.003,"body":"That's a different topic probably"},{"startTime":2680.043,"endTime":2684.003,"body":"than this, but I, I do like what he's"},{"startTime":2684.003,"endTime":2687.423,"body":"saying with the harmony part because,"},{"startTime":2684.003,"endTime":2687.423,"body":"what, what, what's the analogy that"},{"startTime":2687.428,"endTime":2688.953,"body":"we always see is a seat at the table."},{"startTime":2689.073,"endTime":2689.253,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2689.258,"endTime":2691.923,"body":"Like technology often doesn't"},{"startTime":2689.258,"endTime":2691.923,"body":"get a seat at the C level table."},{"startTime":2691.923,"endTime":2692.793,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2693.153,"endTime":2695.343,"body":"They get bullied around a lot,"},{"startTime":2693.153,"endTime":2695.343,"body":"but they still have a level."},{"startTime":2695.683,"endTime":2700.093,"body":"Most companies don't have certified design"},{"startTime":2695.683,"endTime":2700.093,"body":"or like c-level design officer Sure."},{"startTime":2700.213,"endTime":2701.413,"body":"Or whatever you wanna call it."},{"startTime":2701.413,"endTime":2703.453,"body":"Like, they just say, well,"},{"startTime":2701.413,"endTime":2703.453,"body":"that's part of technology."},{"startTime":2703.458,"endTime":2704.263,"body":"That's part of marketing."},{"startTime":2704.323,"endTime":2704.533,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2704.773,"endTime":2705.763,"body":"They're, that's exactly right."},{"startTime":2705.763,"endTime":2709.243,"body":"They're either part of technology"},{"startTime":2705.763,"endTime":2709.243,"body":"or they're part of marketing."},{"startTime":2709.443,"endTime":2711.873,"body":"Or they're part of product."},{"startTime":2712.233,"endTime":2712.473,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2712.473,"endTime":2714.603,"body":"One of those, they're part,"},{"startTime":2712.473,"endTime":2714.603,"body":"they're parked somewhere."},{"startTime":2714.763,"endTime":2717.373,"body":"I envision in this organization,"},{"startTime":2714.763,"endTime":2717.373,"body":"they're parked under the CEO because"},{"startTime":2717.373,"endTime":2721.068,"body":"it's so important to the CEO that"},{"startTime":2717.373,"endTime":2721.068,"body":"design is elevated to that level."},{"startTime":2721.188,"endTime":2721.368,"body":"Now."},{"startTime":2721.373,"endTime":2725.058,"body":"Again, I've not, I've done no research"},{"startTime":2721.373,"endTime":2725.058,"body":"for this podcast, so I, I could be"},{"startTime":2725.063,"endTime":2727.218,"body":"completely wrong, but it feels that way."},{"startTime":2727.278,"endTime":2729.618,"body":"You know, the idea that they're equals."},{"startTime":2729.648,"endTime":2729.768,"body":"You know."},{"startTime":2730.128,"endTime":2730.458,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2730.518,"endTime":2733.758,"body":"So some of these companies are"},{"startTime":2730.518,"endTime":2733.758,"body":"now coming up with titles like,"},{"startTime":2734.418,"endTime":2736.938,"body":"chief Customer Experience Officer."},{"startTime":2736.968,"endTime":2737.298,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2737.298,"endTime":2737.508,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2737.513,"endTime":2741.048,"body":"You, you kinda wonder if that person"},{"startTime":2737.513,"endTime":2741.048,"body":"has to have a design background or at"},{"startTime":2741.048,"endTime":2742.788,"body":"least have design thinking, let's say."},{"startTime":2742.788,"endTime":2742.848,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2743.088,"endTime":2743.448,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2744.198,"endTime":2747.138,"body":"One would hope, one would hope, one"},{"startTime":2744.198,"endTime":2747.138,"body":"would hope they would've empathy"},{"startTime":2747.138,"endTime":2748.458,"body":"and at least talk to the customers."},{"startTime":2748.518,"endTime":2750.348,"body":"Cause they have customer"},{"startTime":2748.518,"endTime":2750.348,"body":"their title for Pete sake."},{"startTime":2750.488,"endTime":2750.938,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2750.938,"endTime":2755.378,"body":"Well the, I mean, the intent of a position"},{"startTime":2750.938,"endTime":2755.378,"body":"like that is someone who is concerned"},{"startTime":2755.383,"endTime":2758.108,"body":"about the entire user experience Right."},{"startTime":2758.318,"endTime":2760.521,"body":"Front to back, but also reality, Yep."},{"startTime":2761.611,"endTime":2767.701,"body":"Can you break down more for us,"},{"startTime":2761.611,"endTime":2767.701,"body":"the way that you see marketing,"},{"startTime":2768.181,"endTime":2771.091,"body":"design, product, and engineering"},{"startTime":2768.181,"endTime":2771.091,"body":"all working together in harmony?"},{"startTime":2771.301,"endTime":2771.841,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2772.231,"endTime":2773.851,"body":"So, but before, exactly."},{"startTime":2774.061,"endTime":2775.981,"body":"What a weird, what a weird segue."},{"startTime":2776.201,"endTime":2777.011,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2777.071,"endTime":2777.791,"body":"Like weird."},{"startTime":2778.028,"endTime":2783.795,"body":"I like this topic because I have"},{"startTime":2778.028,"endTime":2783.795,"body":"a theory that 90% of the people"},{"startTime":2783.8,"endTime":2789.025,"body":"in the job product management,"},{"startTime":2783.8,"endTime":2789.025,"body":"either don't do pricing marketing,"},{"startTime":2789.105,"endTime":2790.985,"body":"participating in sales, and strategy."},{"startTime":2790.985,"endTime":2793.765,"body":"So the point being, you're on the"},{"startTime":2790.985,"endTime":2793.765,"body":"product development side of the house,"},{"startTime":2793.975,"endTime":2795.805,"body":"not on the business side of the house."},{"startTime":2796.015,"endTime":2798.955,"body":"So while, while you are, the, while"},{"startTime":2796.015,"endTime":2798.955,"body":"you're supposed to be the business"},{"startTime":2798.955,"endTime":2803.365,"body":"rep to the team, in actuality"},{"startTime":2798.955,"endTime":2803.365,"body":"it's like they, they sliced off"},{"startTime":2803.365,"endTime":2805.225,"body":"this product owner little piece."},{"startTime":2805.225,"endTime":2806.065,"body":"And that's what you do."},{"startTime":2806.065,"endTime":2808.395,"body":"And you're, oh, that's,"},{"startTime":2806.065,"endTime":2808.395,"body":"that's a developer thing."},{"startTime":2808.485,"endTime":2811.185,"body":"We'll, we'll talk to the"},{"startTime":2808.485,"endTime":2811.185,"body":"developer, our developer guy."},{"startTime":2811.215,"endTime":2813.885,"body":"And at that point, aren't you"},{"startTime":2811.215,"endTime":2813.885,"body":"just like a project manager?"},{"startTime":2813.885,"endTime":2814.605,"body":"Manager of a manager, yeah."},{"startTime":2814.605,"endTime":2817.875,"body":"But aren't you like a, some,"},{"startTime":2814.605,"endTime":2817.875,"body":"some, some slice of a project"},{"startTime":2817.875,"endTime":2819.435,"body":"manager to the development team."},{"startTime":2819.44,"endTime":2822.615,"body":"Like you're their rep that connects"},{"startTime":2819.44,"endTime":2822.615,"body":"you to the rest of the business."},{"startTime":2822.665,"endTime":2826.745,"body":"The more he talks about this, the more"},{"startTime":2822.665,"endTime":2826.745,"body":"I feel like somehow his company has,"},{"startTime":2826.8,"endTime":2831.21,"body":"segmented the product managers into this"},{"startTime":2826.8,"endTime":2831.21,"body":"weird project management type of role"},{"startTime":2831.57,"endTime":2833.04,"body":"where they don't do this kind of stuff"},{"startTime":2833.44,"endTime":2838.975,"body":"None of this at all has hit on anything"},{"startTime":2833.44,"endTime":2838.975,"body":"that's value proposition based."},{"startTime":2839.005,"endTime":2839.245,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2839.875,"endTime":2842.575,"body":"Which, which you should have to"},{"startTime":2839.875,"endTime":2842.575,"body":"justify for anything that you build."},{"startTime":2842.575,"endTime":2844.015,"body":"It's gotta do something for the co."},{"startTime":2844.045,"endTime":2848.125,"body":"Is it, is it experience, is it revenue?"},{"startTime":2848.245,"endTime":2849.745,"body":"Is it a time saving?"},{"startTime":2849.745,"endTime":2851.365,"body":"Like it's, it's for a reason."},{"startTime":2851.565,"endTime":2855.195,"body":"And nothing is about value proposition,"},{"startTime":2851.565,"endTime":2855.195,"body":"but you have to understand that I"},{"startTime":2855.195,"endTime":2858.405,"body":"understand that most of the, what"},{"startTime":2855.195,"endTime":2858.405,"body":"he's saying by designers is most of"},{"startTime":2858.405,"endTime":2861.105,"body":"the stuff is user driven and that"},{"startTime":2858.405,"endTime":2861.105,"body":"will translate to the other stuff."},{"startTime":2861.11,"endTime":2862.005,"body":"So we don't need to worry about it."},{"startTime":2862.005,"endTime":2865.455,"body":"But I never have seen that"},{"startTime":2862.005,"endTime":2865.455,"body":"from product, product managers."},{"startTime":2866.055,"endTime":2867.945,"body":"Like you said, strategy"},{"startTime":2866.055,"endTime":2867.945,"body":"something at minimum."},{"startTime":2867.945,"endTime":2869.685,"body":"Give me a value proposition."},{"startTime":2869.745,"endTime":2870.855,"body":"Why, why are we doing this?"},{"startTime":2870.855,"endTime":2873.345,"body":"Can you, can you at least"},{"startTime":2870.855,"endTime":2873.345,"body":"justify that in terms of this?"},{"startTime":2873.375,"endTime":2874.635,"body":"And just be broad, right?"},{"startTime":2874.635,"endTime":2875.445,"body":"It's a cost savings."},{"startTime":2875.445,"endTime":2875.775,"body":"How much?"},{"startTime":2875.775,"endTime":2877.275,"body":"I don't know, but it's a cost savings."},{"startTime":2877.33,"endTime":2879.59,"body":"All right, let's, let's"},{"startTime":2877.33,"endTime":2879.59,"body":"move forward here with this."},{"startTime":2879.67,"endTime":2879.79,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2879.79,"endTime":2883.45,"body":"So the first thing is we try"},{"startTime":2879.79,"endTime":2883.45,"body":"to have a roadmap and I am the"},{"startTime":2883.45,"endTime":2884.86,"body":"keeper of the roadmap as ceo."},{"startTime":2884.86,"endTime":2887.86,"body":"And I think generally, usually the CEO"},{"startTime":2884.86,"endTime":2887.86,"body":"should be the keeper of the roadmap."},{"startTime":2888.44,"endTime":2892.28,"body":"Our roadmap is typically about three"},{"startTime":2888.44,"endTime":2892.28,"body":"years out, but it's very fuzzy."},{"startTime":2892.31,"endTime":2895.58,"body":"It's like those video games where it gets"},{"startTime":2892.31,"endTime":2895.58,"body":"fuzzier the further over the horizon."},{"startTime":2895.88,"endTime":2898.25,"body":"But I have a pretty good"},{"startTime":2895.88,"endTime":2898.25,"body":"idea of what we're shipping"},{"startTime":2898.25,"endTime":2899.93,"body":"between now and next November."},{"startTime":2899.935,"endTime":2902.36,"body":"So we'll have a release in November."},{"startTime":2902.36,"endTime":2904.61,"body":"We'll have a release next"},{"startTime":2902.36,"endTime":2904.61,"body":"April, next November, and I"},{"startTime":2904.61,"endTime":2905.75,"body":"have a pretty clear picture."},{"startTime":2905.93,"endTime":2908.06,"body":"And then about two years"},{"startTime":2905.93,"endTime":2908.06,"body":"out, it gets pretty fuzzy."},{"startTime":2908.24,"endTime":2912.32,"body":"Now to be clear, it changes and I"},{"startTime":2908.24,"endTime":2912.32,"body":"update the roadmap every single week."},{"startTime":2912.38,"endTime":2915.77,"body":"Now, the long term roadmap, the near term,"},{"startTime":2912.38,"endTime":2915.77,"body":"is hopefully not changing that churn,"},{"startTime":2915.98,"endTime":2917.87,"body":"but the long term is constantly changing."},{"startTime":2918.71,"endTime":2918.98,"body":"Sorry."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2918.985,"endTime":2923.295,"body":"I set the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2918.985,"endTime":2923.295,"body":"roadmap and I set the roadmap for a couple"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2923.295,"endTime":2926.205,"body":"years and Well, no, you don't, you don't,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2923.295,"endTime":2926.205,"body":"you do not set the roadmap for a couple."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2926.355,"endTime":2928.545,"body":"You set your strategic goals"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2926.355,"endTime":2928.545,"body":"for a couple years out."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2928.545,"endTime":2928.547,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2928.552,"endTime":2929.055,"body":"Objectives."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2929.055,"endTime":2929.175,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2929.205,"endTime":2931.125,"body":"I certainly believe you set"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2929.205,"endTime":2931.125,"body":"your objectives for a couple."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2931.125,"endTime":2932.205,"body":"That's, that's not a roadmap."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2932.205,"endTime":2935.625,"body":"And, and you could, you could, we could"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2932.205,"endTime":2935.625,"body":"quibble back and forth for the rest of"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2935.625,"endTime":2938.625,"body":"this podcast, but  he sets his goals"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2935.625,"endTime":2938.625,"body":"the way he wants to set his goals."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2938.685,"endTime":2941.565,"body":"And the employees in an organization,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2938.685,"endTime":2941.565,"body":"no matter what their job title is,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2941.57,"endTime":2944.985,"body":"product manager, whatever, they"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2941.57,"endTime":2944.985,"body":"pull it down and say, yes, sir."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2944.99,"endTime":2945.205,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2945.225,"endTime":2945.645,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2945.705,"endTime":2946.045,"body":"That's cool."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2946.045,"endTime":2946.245,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2946.33,"endTime":2946.605,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2946.665,"endTime":2947.025,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2947.595,"endTime":2951.915,"body":"A again, I see no point in"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2947.595,"endTime":2951.915,"body":"setting goals two years out that."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2952.275,"endTime":2955.095,"body":"Then the next six months you're"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2952.275,"endTime":2955.095,"body":"gonna revise and throw away."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2955.125,"endTime":2959.175,"body":"Like, I just went through my backlog"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2955.125,"endTime":2959.175,"body":"today, today, went through my, went"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2959.175,"endTime":2960.465,"body":"through my roadmap, not my backlog."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2960.615,"endTime":2961.635,"body":"I went through my roadmap today."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2961.755,"endTime":2964.725,"body":"I took all my stuff in my later"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2961.755,"endTime":2964.725,"body":"category, and I went over every"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2964.725,"endTime":2967.875,"body":"single thing in my later category"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2964.725,"endTime":2967.875,"body":"just to scrub things to be like, I"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2967.875,"endTime":2969.615,"body":"don't want any aging items in here."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2969.915,"endTime":2974.025,"body":"I started setting up like, alerts for"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2969.915,"endTime":2974.025,"body":"things that are a couple months old just"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2974.025,"endTime":2976.365,"body":"so I I don't have stale stuff on my right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2976.365,"endTime":2976.425,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2976.425,"endTime":2979.635,"body":"Those things age like, vegetables"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2976.425,"endTime":2979.635,"body":"left out out of the fridge big."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2979.64,"endTime":2981.315,"body":"They age like fine milk."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2981.735,"endTime":2982.155,"body":"Oh man."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2982.155,"endTime":2983.055,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2983.06,"endTime":2986.085,"body":"Cause your, your, your market's"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2983.06,"endTime":2986.085,"body":"susceptible like what, two years"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2986.085,"endTime":2988.655,"body":"out you think you actually are gonna"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2986.085,"endTime":2988.655,"body":"understand where the market's at."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2988.852,"endTime":2991.072,"body":"Two years, I've, I've wasted all"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2988.852,"endTime":2991.072,"body":"this time setting my goals two"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2991.072,"endTime":2992.092,"body":"years out, and then guess what?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2992.092,"endTime":2994.552,"body":"I'm gonna roll back in another pandemic."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2994.642,"endTime":2995.632,"body":"Your goals now are shut."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2995.632,"endTime":2995.822,"body":"I know, I know."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2995.822,"endTime":2997.102,"body":"You know, you've just wasted time."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2997.132,"endTime":2997.372,"body":"I know."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2997.402,"endTime":2997.552,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2997.582,"endTime":3000.072,"body":"So it's, it's waste which"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":2997.582,"endTime":3000.072,"body":"he, he just outlined."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3000.122,"endTime":3004.052,"body":"It's probably too quick for him to go"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3000.122,"endTime":3004.052,"body":"into context with any of this, but he"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3004.052,"endTime":3007.982,"body":"probably really does say, Hey, my two"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3004.052,"endTime":3007.982,"body":"years out stuff, actually one year"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3007.982,"endTime":3012.092,"body":"out stuff, probably for him, my one"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3007.982,"endTime":3012.092,"body":"year out stuff is like up in the air."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3012.097,"endTime":3012.752,"body":"Maybe."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3012.752,"endTime":3016.682,"body":"I think, I suspect we might need to be in"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3012.752,"endTime":3016.682,"body":"this business area, but I'm not gonna put"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3016.772,"endTime":3019.382,"body":"any thought or planning into it at all."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3019.852,"endTime":3023.842,"body":"If we were dig, to, dig into context"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3019.852,"endTime":3023.842,"body":"here probably that's what he would tell"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3023.842,"endTime":3026.842,"body":"us is like the two of your stuff is like"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3023.842,"endTime":3026.842,"body":"things I know I want to expand into."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3027.022,"endTime":3029.422,"body":"I really would like to get there,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3027.022,"endTime":3029.422,"body":"but if it doesn't happen, no"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3029.422,"endTime":3033.022,"body":"one's gonna cry and we haven't"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3029.422,"endTime":3033.022,"body":"expended any effort at all on it."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3033.052,"endTime":3034.162,"body":"So if it goes away, it's like epics."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3034.252,"endTime":3034.312,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3034.317,"endTime":3035.272,"body":"He just made his epics."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3035.277,"endTime":3035.552,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3035.552,"endTime":3036.072,"body":"He knows what it is."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3036.202,"endTime":3036.592,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3036.712,"endTime":3040.372,"body":"And it's great because I was, nobody"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3036.712,"endTime":3040.372,"body":"could see, but I was clapping when he"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3040.372,"endTime":3042.382,"body":"said a roadmap is constantly changing."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3042.382,"endTime":3043.852,"body":"Not the near term stuff, but mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3044.152,"endTime":3045.652,"body":"I'm the, the three months, six months."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3045.652,"endTime":3050.152,"body":"And I'm like, hey, because cuz again,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3045.652,"endTime":3050.152,"body":"sometimes people don't get product"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3050.152,"endTime":3051.352,"body":"owners or managers that do that."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3051.357,"endTime":3051.442,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3051.442,"endTime":3054.592,"body":"They, they slinky effect, they"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3051.442,"endTime":3054.592,"body":"set it right and then they move"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3054.592,"endTime":3055.462,"body":"it and then they adjust it."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3055.462,"endTime":3055.463,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3055.468,"endTime":3057.082,"body":"And it's like that slinky"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3055.468,"endTime":3057.082,"body":"effect doesn't work."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3057.082,"endTime":3061.012,"body":"But if you're constantly changing it,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3057.082,"endTime":3061.012,"body":"good, you're reacting to factors that"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3061.012,"endTime":3063.052,"body":"you can't control that you can see."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3063.052,"endTime":3066.532,"body":"And you're providing value"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3063.052,"endTime":3066.532,"body":"in real time based on what is"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3066.532,"endTime":3067.732,"body":"being dictated, which is great."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3067.792,"endTime":3068.002,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3068.289,"endTime":3070.444,"body":"you can measure the health"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3068.289,"endTime":3070.444,"body":"organization by the relationship"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3070.444,"endTime":3071.704,"body":"between marketers and engineers."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3072.574,"endTime":3075.934,"body":"And in most companies, marketers"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3072.574,"endTime":3075.934,"body":"are like waiters and engineers like"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3075.934,"endTime":3079.534,"body":"chefs, and if the waiter goes in the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3075.934,"endTime":3079.534,"body":"kitchen, the chef yells at them and"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3079.534,"endTime":3081.514,"body":"that is not a great relationship."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3081.574,"endTime":3083.849,"body":"We actually like to start a lot"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3081.574,"endTime":3083.849,"body":"of product development, not just"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3083.849,"endTime":3085.049,"body":"with design, but with marketing."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3085.439,"endTime":3088.499,"body":"Because our marketers, we want to"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3085.439,"endTime":3088.499,"body":"actually have a vision and to figure"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3088.504,"endTime":3089.639,"body":"out how they can tell a story."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3090.149,"endTime":3093.059,"body":"Then product marketing, again,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3090.149,"endTime":3093.059,"body":"product marketing is product"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3093.059,"endTime":3095.159,"body":"management plus outbound marketing."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3095.459,"endTime":3099.089,"body":"It's a smaller function, it's a"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3095.459,"endTime":3099.089,"body":"extremely influential function."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3099.129,"endTime":3103.809,"body":"They will work with the designers and us"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3099.129,"endTime":3103.809,"body":"to establish like, what is this project?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3103.929,"endTime":3104.679,"body":"What are the goals?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3104.709,"endTime":3105.729,"body":"What are we trying to solve?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3106.419,"endTime":3108.729,"body":"So like, let's say we launch"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3106.419,"endTime":3108.729,"body":"this product, Airbnb rooms."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3109.599,"endTime":3113.649,"body":"We noticed the original Airbnb was"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3109.599,"endTime":3113.649,"body":"really slowing in growth and we"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3113.649,"endTime":3114.999,"body":"wanted to figure out how to revive it."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3115.329,"endTime":3117.309,"body":"And so it often starts with the insight."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3117.729,"endTime":3121.749,"body":"And the insight was people are nervous"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3117.729,"endTime":3121.749,"body":"staying in the homes of other people."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3121.939,"endTime":3125.029,"body":"I'm turning him way down on the recording"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3121.939,"endTime":3125.029,"body":"because I want to speak over him at this"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3125.029,"endTime":3130.429,"body":"point because I, I like that he has a"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3125.029,"endTime":3130.429,"body":"couple of pre-packaged stories that,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3131.119,"endTime":3134.659,"body":"that integrate both his organization"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3131.119,"endTime":3134.659,"body":"and the application and he, he's"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3134.659,"endTime":3138.289,"body":"ready to roll them out on demand when"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3134.659,"endTime":3138.289,"body":"he needs those pre-packaged stories."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3138.439,"endTime":3140.839,"body":"I feel a lot of people that are"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3138.439,"endTime":3140.839,"body":"Scrum masters, product managers,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3140.844,"endTime":3142.999,"body":"product owners, people learning"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3140.844,"endTime":3142.999,"body":"the role and stuff like that."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3142.999,"endTime":3147.019,"body":"I guess even designers in order to break"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3142.999,"endTime":3147.019,"body":"through to the leadership level, You"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3147.019,"endTime":3151.849,"body":"really need these pre-packaged stories"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3147.019,"endTime":3151.849,"body":"ready to go in order to stand out."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3151.909,"endTime":3156.559,"body":"As you know, management slash leadership"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3151.909,"endTime":3156.559,"body":"material, in these types of organizations."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3156.739,"endTime":3158.359,"body":"I mean, he has them ready to go."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3158.479,"endTime":3158.869,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3158.989,"endTime":3162.769,"body":"Practice, he's probably practice design"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3158.989,"endTime":3162.769,"body":"systems is you should design, probably"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3162.774,"endTime":3163.999,"body":"practice these whatever you want."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3163.999,"endTime":3165.709,"body":"And then you put it in the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3163.999,"endTime":3165.709,"body":"design language system."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3165.889,"endTime":3168.349,"body":"But then we started noticing"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3165.889,"endTime":3168.349,"body":"that people had bad photos."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3168.589,"endTime":3173.329,"body":"So then we built an operation to"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3168.589,"endTime":3173.329,"body":"take headshot of 40,000 people."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3173.629,"endTime":3177.499,"body":"If you were a designer in a"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3173.629,"endTime":3177.499,"body":"corner of an app, it'd be hard to"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3177.499,"endTime":3180.889,"body":"convince the marketing department"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3177.499,"endTime":3180.889,"body":"to spend money to take photos."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3180.889,"endTime":3183.319,"body":"But when you're integrated,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3180.889,"endTime":3183.319,"body":"you can start to do this."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3183.389,"endTime":3184.739,"body":"again, he says integrated."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3184.739,"endTime":3186.179,"body":"I hear systems thinking."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3186.389,"endTime":3189.749,"body":"It, it, it's if you're one"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3186.389,"endTime":3189.749,"body":"product manager or one designer,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3189.809,"endTime":3191.609,"body":"hell, even one, one developer."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3191.609,"endTime":3194.639,"body":"If you're one developer on one"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3191.609,"endTime":3194.639,"body":"team in a tiny little corner of"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3194.644,"endTime":3199.439,"body":"a tiny little program  maybe one"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3194.644,"endTime":3199.439,"body":"person riding on Ahoo train, right?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3199.444,"endTime":3203.804,"body":"It's hard to, to convince people"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3199.444,"endTime":3203.804,"body":"hey if we spent a couple dollars and"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3203.804,"endTime":3208.244,"body":"cents taking great pictures or holding"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3203.804,"endTime":3208.244,"body":"events where professional photographers"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3208.424,"endTime":3212.288,"body":"could take pictures of the people"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3208.424,"endTime":3212.288,"body":"that that are our, our, hosts, I guess"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3212.528,"endTime":3214.628,"body":"I don't remember what they call 'em"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3212.528,"endTime":3214.628,"body":"in the, in the Applic application."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3214.628,"endTime":3218.648,"body":"Yeah, that'd be most, maybe we, we have,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3214.628,"endTime":3218.648,"body":"in certain cities on certain dates,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3218.648,"endTime":3221.498,"body":"we hire professional photographers and"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3218.648,"endTime":3221.498,"body":"people can come in and get their head"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3221.498,"endTime":3223.588,"body":"shots and, it costs us this much money."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3224.103,"endTime":3226.143,"body":"But we can make this much on the backend."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3226.293,"endTime":3229.023,"body":"You would have no avenue to to"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3226.293,"endTime":3229.023,"body":"do something like that because"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3229.023,"endTime":3231.783,"body":"that's, that's not a product thing"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3229.023,"endTime":3231.783,"body":"that doesn't go into the software."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3231.883,"endTime":3233.653,"body":"And, and how are you gonna do that?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3233.953,"endTime":3236.773,"body":"You know when, when your voice"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3233.953,"endTime":3236.773,"body":"is like, Hey, shut up kid."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3236.778,"endTime":3241.813,"body":"Get back to get back to, to, to pounding"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3236.778,"endTime":3241.813,"body":"out screen designs or whatever that"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3241.813,"endTime":3245.353,"body":"systems thinking never comes into"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3241.813,"endTime":3245.353,"body":"play when you're all the developers"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3245.353,"endTime":3248.233,"body":"over here and all the designers over"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3245.353,"endTime":3248.233,"body":"here and all the test is over here,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3248.503,"endTime":3249.703,"body":"which is what we see all the time."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3250.003,"endTime":3250.873,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3250.873,"endTime":3251.143,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3251.203,"endTime":3251.623,"body":"And absolutely."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3251.953,"endTime":3255.073,"body":"And the, and the better thing is,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3251.953,"endTime":3255.073,"body":"is if, if like a product manager"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3255.073,"endTime":3258.723,"body":"should be able to do that, if we did"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3255.073,"endTime":3258.723,"body":"this, here's how much it would cost."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3258.723,"endTime":3262.213,"body":"But we could save this by the, and like,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3258.723,"endTime":3262.213,"body":"You go to the marketing department with"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3262.213,"endTime":3264.973,"body":"that and they would, they would probably"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3262.213,"endTime":3264.973,"body":"look at you and go, how do you know what"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3264.973,"endTime":3266.683,"body":"my costs are to make that determination?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3266.683,"endTime":3266.893,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3267.043,"endTime":3268.333,"body":"I don't I need your help."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3268.423,"endTime":3270.433,"body":"No, you're not gonna get that information."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3270.433,"endTime":3270.823,"body":"Leave."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3270.853,"endTime":3271.994,"body":"And like, they won't give it to you."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3271.999,"endTime":3272.303,"body":"I'm too busy."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3272.443,"endTime":3275.663,"body":"Or worse actually, or they don't know"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3272.443,"endTime":3275.663,"body":"actually, stay in your lane, bro, you"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3275.683,"endTime":3278.413,"body":"know what's even, you know what's even,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3275.683,"endTime":3278.413,"body":"I like that you snuck bro in there."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3278.593,"endTime":3283.1,"body":"Or worse is, I'll take that back to the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3278.593,"endTime":3283.1,"body":"budgeting and I'll let you know, because"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3283.29,"endTime":3285.96,"body":"smart people take care of the budgeting"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3283.29,"endTime":3285.96,"body":"numbers and we're trying to keep that"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3285.96,"endTime":3287.43,"body":"secret from that's a long form of No."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3287.58,"endTime":3289.5,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3289.9,"endTime":3292.96,"body":"that's the thing is if you expect"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3289.9,"endTime":3292.96,"body":"a value proposition, if you want"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3292.965,"endTime":3297.52,"body":"someone to tell you why should you"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3292.965,"endTime":3297.52,"body":"do something, you're going to CFO"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3297.52,"endTime":3299.89,"body":"or marketing or anything like that,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3297.52,"endTime":3299.89,"body":"they're gonna quantify it with numbers."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3299.89,"endTime":3302.26,"body":"But if you're not making your"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3299.89,"endTime":3302.26,"body":"numbers visible or at least helping"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3302.42,"endTime":3304.45,"body":"because you have to have somebody"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3302.42,"endTime":3304.45,"body":"else do it, and you say, we're gonna"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3304.45,"endTime":3305.5,"body":"take it back and figure it out."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3305.53,"endTime":3305.65,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3305.71,"endTime":3308.5,"body":"Either you don't know or"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3305.71,"endTime":3308.5,"body":"you're hiding something."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3308.5,"endTime":3308.74,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3309.04,"endTime":3313.2,"body":"But, you, you owe it to your"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3309.04,"endTime":3313.2,"body":"design thinkers, right to try."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3313.31,"endTime":3318.92,"body":"If you want to get your employees to"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3313.31,"endTime":3318.92,"body":"think like business owners or founders,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3319.31,"endTime":3321.53,"body":"you need to treat them not like children."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3321.68,"endTime":3323.96,"body":"You need to treat them like"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3321.68,"endTime":3323.96,"body":"business owners or founders."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3324.26,"endTime":3326.33,"body":"and lemme tell you a quick story"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3324.26,"endTime":3326.33,"body":"about how we improve the product."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3326.63,"endTime":3329.36,"body":"So we recently created this thing"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3326.63,"endTime":3329.36,"body":"we call the Airbnb Blueprint."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3329.96,"endTime":3333.59,"body":"And I was inspired by something"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3329.96,"endTime":3333.59,"body":"Walt Disney did in the 1930s."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3333.86,"endTime":3335.39,"body":"He was making this"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3333.86,"endTime":3335.39,"body":"movie called Snow White."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3335.39,"endTime":3338.54,"body":"It was the first feature length"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3335.39,"endTime":3338.54,"body":"animated film, and it was so long"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3338.54,"endTime":3339.71,"body":"he couldn't keep track of the film."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3339.71,"endTime":3341.3,"body":"So he created this thing"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3339.71,"endTime":3341.3,"body":"called the Storyboard."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3341.66,"endTime":3343.88,"body":"And that's when we realized, well,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3341.66,"endTime":3343.88,"body":"what if we do the same thing at Airbnb?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3343.93,"endTime":3346.75,"body":"So we storyboarded the end-to-end"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3343.93,"endTime":3346.75,"body":"journey for guests and hosts."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3347.54,"endTime":3349.82,"body":"The rest of us know this"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3347.54,"endTime":3349.82,"body":"as a user journey map."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3349.82,"endTime":3353.9,"body":"Anybody who really wants to understand how"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3349.82,"endTime":3353.9,"body":"their users move through the application"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3354.23,"endTime":3358.82,"body":"and how to plug a new feature into"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3354.23,"endTime":3358.82,"body":"the normal user experience should have"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3358.82,"endTime":3360.872,"body":"a journey map like he's describing."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3360.887,"endTime":3362.422,"body":"But let's listen to the rest of it."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3362.792,"endTime":3368.402,"body":"Every single screen a user sees put on one"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3362.792,"endTime":3368.402,"body":"wall, it turns out there's 150 screens."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3368.792,"endTime":3372.062,"body":"Then I said, every user policy,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3368.792,"endTime":3372.062,"body":"every time you call customer"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3372.062,"endTime":3373.802,"body":"service, what policy are referencing."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3374.102,"endTime":3376.262,"body":"It turns out there were"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3374.102,"endTime":3376.262,"body":"nearly 70 user policies."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3376.312,"endTime":3379.882,"body":"And then we went through like 20"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3376.312,"endTime":3379.882,"body":"million customer service calls."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3380.452,"endTime":3383.992,"body":"We went through hundreds of thousand"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3380.452,"endTime":3383.992,"body":"social media posts, tons of workshops,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3384.052,"endTime":3385.642,"body":"and even our firsthand experience."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3385.692,"endTime":3389.052,"body":"And based on that, we created a"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3385.692,"endTime":3389.052,"body":"prioritized map and systematically"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3389.052,"endTime":3390.282,"body":"tried to fix our product."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3390.612,"endTime":3395.292,"body":"And, I, I used to tell a team, we can't do"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3390.612,"endTime":3395.292,"body":"new things unless we have permission and"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3395.292,"endTime":3398.862,"body":"we don't have permission working on new"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3395.292,"endTime":3398.862,"body":"things until people love our core service."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3399.012,"endTime":3401.712,"body":"And if they're complaining on social media"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3399.012,"endTime":3401.712,"body":"and they're calling customer service,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3401.862,"endTime":3405.222,"body":"they don't love our core service, so we"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3401.862,"endTime":3405.222,"body":"have to get our house in order first."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3405.372,"endTime":3408.612,"body":"The storyboarding, like understand"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3405.372,"endTime":3408.612,"body":"your user's journey through the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3408.612,"endTime":3412.392,"body":"application and what the most"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3408.612,"endTime":3412.392,"body":"painful points of the journey are."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3412.602,"endTime":3417.282,"body":"And then fix 'em until your core offering"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3412.602,"endTime":3417.282,"body":"is as good as it can be before you"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3417.282,"endTime":3421.782,"body":"worry about like, scaling and adding a"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3417.282,"endTime":3421.782,"body":"million features and adding a thousand"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3421.787,"endTime":3423.192,"body":"buttons that no one's ever gonna see."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3423.272,"endTime":3428.022,"body":"Well, a good journey map lets you also"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3423.272,"endTime":3428.022,"body":"see things like, what are the value"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3428.817,"endTime":3431.127,"body":"subtracted opposite of value added steps."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3431.157,"endTime":3431.367,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3431.367,"endTime":3434.287,"body":"The steps that the user has to sit"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3431.367,"endTime":3434.287,"body":"there and the stress click through."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3434.337,"endTime":3434.487,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3434.487,"endTime":3434.757,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3434.757,"endTime":3435.087,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3435.147,"endTime":3436.527,"body":"Those things you could remove."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3436.527,"endTime":3436.587,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3436.617,"endTime":3436.887,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3436.887,"endTime":3438.502,"body":"Aka waste in the lean mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3438.722,"endTime":3439.172,"body":"World."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3439.205,"endTime":3440.735,"body":"it's the same thing that we already know."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3440.735,"endTime":3443.345,"body":"He's just got a, he's just"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3440.735,"endTime":3443.345,"body":"put a new kind label on it."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3443.405,"endTime":3443.465,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3443.47,"endTime":3448.055,"body":"Well, I, I've also seen, I've seen,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3443.47,"endTime":3448.055,"body":"journey maps through an application that"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3448.055,"endTime":3450.605,"body":"have a stress level that goes up and down."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3450.605,"endTime":3450.606,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3450.745,"endTime":3451.885,"body":"Like I've seen those tools."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3451.915,"endTime":3452.067,"body":"I've seen that too."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3452.122,"endTime":3454.972,"body":"They take a bit of work to do cause"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3452.122,"endTime":3454.972,"body":"there's not really any tools that do it"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3454.972,"endTime":3459.077,"body":"easily, but, I think it's really cool"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3454.972,"endTime":3459.077,"body":"like you're applying for a loan and now"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3459.077,"endTime":3461.417,"body":"you've gotta like add all your documents"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3459.077,"endTime":3461.417,"body":"or whatever, like the stress level"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3461.417,"endTime":3464.927,"body":"goes way up and be like, mm-hmm what do"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3461.417,"endTime":3464.927,"body":"you mean I gotta find my whatever tax"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3464.927,"endTime":3468.347,"body":"statement from X years ago or what the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3464.927,"endTime":3468.347,"body":"stress is gonna go up at that point."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3468.617,"endTime":3471.347,"body":"So you try to make that as"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3468.617,"endTime":3471.347,"body":"easy as possible That's right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3471.437,"endTime":3473.447,"body":"In your application and maybe"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3471.437,"endTime":3473.447,"body":"add some features and make it."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3473.452,"endTime":3474.412,"body":"You know, helpful."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3474.412,"endTime":3474.712,"body":"Oh."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3474.832,"endTime":3478.775,"body":"When you add your W2 , it"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3474.832,"endTime":3478.775,"body":"automatically picks all the, numbers"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3478.775,"endTime":3480.455,"body":"off of it and populates the field."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3480.455,"endTime":3481.885,"body":"So you don't need to do things like that."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3481.89,"endTime":3482.185,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3482.185,"endTime":3486.895,"body":"I think being the designer is like"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3482.185,"endTime":3486.895,"body":"holding 5,000 ideas in your head."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3486.925,"endTime":3490.525,"body":"Some of them contradictory and"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3486.925,"endTime":3490.525,"body":"we tend to call this intuition"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3490.525,"endTime":3493.705,"body":"and we get really nervous cuz"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3490.525,"endTime":3493.705,"body":"it seems somehow not systematic."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3493.735,"endTime":3496.975,"body":"But I actually think a lot of great"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3493.735,"endTime":3496.975,"body":"design comes from deep understanding"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3496.975,"endTime":3500.575,"body":"of a problem and so you're trying to"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3496.975,"endTime":3500.575,"body":"absorb as much information as possible."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3501.205,"endTime":3504.865,"body":"When I joined Y Combinator, Paul Graham"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3501.205,"endTime":3504.865,"body":"said, make something people want."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3505.015,"endTime":3508.255,"body":"Well, who knows what people want as well"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3505.015,"endTime":3508.255,"body":"as designers, not many other people."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3508.255,"endTime":3511.715,"body":"I think that is a core value, that's a"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3508.255,"endTime":3511.715,"body":"good value that we have to the world."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3511.715,"endTime":3512.215,"body":"That's a good finish."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3512.215,"endTime":3515.185,"body":"And I, I just think more designers"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3512.215,"endTime":3515.185,"body":"should rise up and start companies."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3515.321,"endTime":3519.871,"body":"That's a good finishing, idea is"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3515.321,"endTime":3519.871,"body":"designers know what people want."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3519.871,"endTime":3521.996,"body":"How do they know what people want"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3519.871,"endTime":3521.996,"body":"is because they have, they have all"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3521.996,"endTime":3524.366,"body":"the skill to get in front of users."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3524.366,"endTime":3528.891,"body":"they understand to put the user first and"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3524.366,"endTime":3528.891,"body":"to put the user's opinions and the user's"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3528.891,"endTime":3530.781,"body":"views at the center of what they're doing."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3530.781,"endTime":3532.011,"body":"I mean, they're trained to do that."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3532.011,"endTime":3533.541,"body":"They're trained to do"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3532.011,"endTime":3533.541,"body":"interviews, that kinda stuff."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3534.321,"endTime":3536.721,"body":"As opposed to, assuming, right?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3537.471,"endTime":3541.311,"body":"Running ab tests is, is in a way"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3537.471,"endTime":3541.311,"body":"a certain assumption that he was"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3541.311,"endTime":3545.461,"body":"kind of calling out but, I, I like"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3541.311,"endTime":3545.461,"body":"that, that he wrapped up with that."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3545.761,"endTime":3546.031,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3546.451,"endTime":3546.541,"body":"Good."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3546.541,"endTime":3549.181,"body":"I think that that should have"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3546.541,"endTime":3549.181,"body":"been the biggest thing is"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3549.181,"endTime":3550.501,"body":"designers can run companies."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3550.501,"endTime":3556.171,"body":"And why is because they're often more"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3550.501,"endTime":3556.171,"body":"in touch with the user than a cfo."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3556.251,"endTime":3557.191,"body":"A cto."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3557.191,"endTime":3557.251,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3557.256,"endTime":3558.751,"body":"They're more user obsessed."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3558.751,"endTime":3562.531,"body":"So why should you not"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3558.751,"endTime":3562.531,"body":"have that be the case?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3562.531,"endTime":3565.951,"body":"It's, it's almost like I, I think"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3562.531,"endTime":3565.951,"body":"it's the, the publicly traded company."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3565.951,"endTime":3567.181,"body":"What would you rather have?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3567.301,"endTime":3569.551,"body":"You know, the, the board is"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3567.301,"endTime":3569.551,"body":"going to tell you what they want."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3569.551,"endTime":3571.771,"body":"Do they want a CEO that is?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3572.356,"endTime":3573.436,"body":"Money obsessed."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3573.441,"endTime":3573.566,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3573.946,"endTime":3574.996,"body":"Or user obsessed."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3574.996,"endTime":3575.146,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3575.146,"endTime":3580.366,"body":"And it's hard to quantify to that board"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3575.146,"endTime":3580.366,"body":"that a user obsessed CEO is a good"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3580.366,"endTime":3584.986,"body":"thing and can, and often make you a very"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3580.366,"endTime":3584.986,"body":"profitable member of the board, right?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3584.991,"endTime":3585.086,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3585.166,"endTime":3588.496,"body":"It can increase your shareholder"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3585.166,"endTime":3588.496,"body":"value, but I, I like his statement."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3588.501,"endTime":3592.186,"body":"I wish you would've hit on that a lot"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3588.501,"endTime":3592.186,"body":"more as like, yeah, designers know the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3592.186,"endTime":3597.836,"body":"user, but oftentimes you have to ask"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3592.186,"endTime":3597.836,"body":"that simple question is, are we building"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3597.841,"endTime":3599.486,"body":"this to make a stakeholder happy?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3599.516,"endTime":3602.546,"body":"if our users love this product,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3599.516,"endTime":3602.546,"body":"is the stakeholder happy?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3602.546,"endTime":3605.816,"body":"Or if the stakeholders happy and the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3602.546,"endTime":3605.816,"body":"users hate it, are we still successful?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3605.816,"endTime":3610.346,"body":"And sometimes we're just here"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3605.816,"endTime":3610.346,"body":"to make that suit thumbs up us."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3610.406,"endTime":3610.466,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3610.466,"endTime":3612.236,"body":"Because we don't even care"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3610.466,"endTime":3612.236,"body":"if the users don't like it."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3612.236,"endTime":3613.076,"body":"They don't care either."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3613.136,"endTime":3613.286,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3613.466,"endTime":3614.756,"body":"So you have to ask that question."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3614.756,"endTime":3614.816,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3614.816,"endTime":3618.596,"body":"Because if you, if it's all about customer"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3614.816,"endTime":3618.596,"body":"satisfaction, like he's talking Yes."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3618.716,"endTime":3620.036,"body":"Some companies don't operate that way."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3620.096,"endTime":3620.936,"body":"They don't ask those questions."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3620.941,"endTime":3621.176,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3621.236,"endTime":3621.776,"body":"yeah, I agree."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3621.776,"endTime":3624.406,"body":"I wish he had said that earlier,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3621.776,"endTime":3624.406,"body":"cause I kept asking are these"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3624.436,"endTime":3626.056,"body":"designers customer facing?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3626.116,"endTime":3626.626,"body":"We didn't know."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3626.626,"endTime":3631.326,"body":"The main reason I wanted to highlight"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3626.626,"endTime":3631.326,"body":"this video on the podcast number number"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3631.326,"endTime":3633.006,"body":"one was of course the, the clickbait."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3633.011,"endTime":3636.426,"body":"Like, I was like, it's not what"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3633.011,"endTime":3636.426,"body":"the clickbait is prescribed."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3636.431,"endTime":3636.756,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3636.756,"endTime":3639.936,"body":"It's not, but, but the other thing"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3636.756,"endTime":3639.936,"body":"is like, it's, it's a organizational"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3639.936,"endTime":3643.806,"body":"design talk disguise as a U I U X talk."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3643.811,"endTime":3644.166,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3644.616,"endTime":3646.356,"body":"It's, Hey, talk to your customers."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3646.626,"endTime":3647.406,"body":"Bring them in."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3647.496,"endTime":3649.986,"body":"Be customer centric, like"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3647.496,"endTime":3649.986,"body":"actual customer centric."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3650.196,"endTime":3651.306,"body":"Be design centric."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3651.306,"endTime":3654.276,"body":"Being design centric means"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3651.306,"endTime":3654.276,"body":"you're gonna be following."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3654.816,"endTime":3656.046,"body":"What the customer wants."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3656.136,"endTime":3658.686,"body":"You're gonna be following the customer"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3656.136,"endTime":3658.686,"body":"really closely cuz you're gonna be"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3658.686,"endTime":3662.492,"body":"checking with them and, and asking"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3658.686,"endTime":3662.492,"body":"and, and getting feedback . And,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3662.559,"endTime":3665.919,"body":"your company shouldn't be like,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3662.559,"endTime":3665.919,"body":"all the X people are over there."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3665.919,"endTime":3669.249,"body":"All the Y people over there, all the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3665.919,"endTime":3669.249,"body":"Z people over there, or the Z people."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3669.279,"endTime":3672.489,"body":"He called that out real early and it's"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3669.279,"endTime":3672.489,"body":"like, oh, I, I didn't like the way the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3672.489,"endTime":3676.599,"body":"company was designed cuz I realized"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3672.489,"endTime":3676.599,"body":"that we should be putting the customer."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3676.914,"endTime":3680.184,"body":"Closer to the middle of the experience"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3676.914,"endTime":3680.184,"body":"and all kind of swarming around it."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3680.544,"endTime":3684.894,"body":"And, and we should all be peers rather"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3680.544,"endTime":3684.894,"body":"than all the ui ux people work for the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3684.894,"endTime":3688.584,"body":"product people and the product people"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3684.894,"endTime":3688.584,"body":"say, go, go build me some clip art."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3689.244,"endTime":3690.194,"body":"I don't know why I keep like clip."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3690.414,"endTime":3693.616,"body":"I feel like I'm 80, 80 years old when"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3690.414,"endTime":3693.616,"body":"I keep it, like build me clip art,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3693.666,"endTime":3697.826,"body":"Like, if you're gonna have one tiny little"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3693.666,"endTime":3697.826,"body":"component team over here, a complicated"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3697.826,"endTime":3700.046,"body":"subsystem team under the team topologies."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3700.046,"endTime":3703.626,"body":"Hey, it is another podcast you can"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3700.046,"endTime":3703.626,"body":"check out here teams apologies."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3704.416,"endTime":3709.532,"body":"If we're gonna treat U I U X as a"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3704.416,"endTime":3709.532,"body":"complicated subsystem, or design"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3709.532,"endTime":3712.892,"body":"as a service where we just throw"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3709.532,"endTime":3712.892,"body":"something over the wall and say,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3712.892,"endTime":3714.752,"body":"Hey, go figure this out for us."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3714.812,"endTime":3716.942,"body":"And they send it back and we have no idea."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3717.092,"endTime":3717.332,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3717.362,"endTime":3719.972,"body":"What they're thinking was when they"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3717.362,"endTime":3719.972,"body":"design was not in that picture."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3720.052,"endTime":3724.732,"body":"And then one last thing is know"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3720.052,"endTime":3724.732,"body":"why you're building something."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3725.302,"endTime":3728.572,"body":"If customer satisfaction is of"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3725.302,"endTime":3728.572,"body":"importance to you, then that's great."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3728.662,"endTime":3728.812,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3729.112,"endTime":3730.132,"body":"I mean, own up to it."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3730.137,"endTime":3733.762,"body":"If you're just trying to make somebody"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3730.137,"endTime":3733.762,"body":"in a suit who wants an app built for them"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3733.792,"endTime":3735.272,"body":"and the people that work for them mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3735.357,"endTime":3736.582,"body":"You like say it's like internal."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3736.807,"endTime":3737.467,"body":"And they don't care."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3737.467,"endTime":3738.997,"body":"If the users like it, then that's fine."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3738.997,"endTime":3741.547,"body":"If they only care so much that a"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3738.997,"endTime":3741.547,"body":"user like it, then that's fine."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3741.847,"endTime":3746.227,"body":"If they a hundred percent dive in"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3741.847,"endTime":3746.227,"body":"and want the users to like it, then"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3746.227,"endTime":3747.247,"body":"you need to open up that channel."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3747.247,"endTime":3748.567,"body":"They need to be able to talk to the users."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3748.567,"endTime":3750.667,"body":"You need to be user obsessed"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3748.567,"endTime":3750.667,"body":"like he's talking about."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3750.667,"endTime":3753.847,"body":"It's just, it's different,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3750.667,"endTime":3753.847,"body":"it's, it's, it's knowing why"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3753.847,"endTime":3754.627,"body":"you're running the company."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3754.632,"endTime":3757.987,"body":"So I, I want to, I think that"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3754.632,"endTime":3757.987,"body":"he's probably saying that without"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3757.987,"endTime":3761.077,"body":"saying, is that at some point"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3757.987,"endTime":3761.077,"body":"they weren't user obsessed."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3761.077,"endTime":3763.747,"body":"They were technology obsessed, and"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3761.077,"endTime":3763.747,"body":"they had 10 different departments"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3763.747,"endTime":3764.737,"body":"doing everything they wanted."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3764.887,"endTime":3765.007,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3765.037,"endTime":3769.117,"body":"They went back to user, user obsessed,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3765.037,"endTime":3769.117,"body":"which is great because what did he say?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3769.117,"endTime":3770.227,"body":"4 billion in cashflow?"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3770.317,"endTime":3770.527,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3770.737,"endTime":3771.457,"body":"Yay."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3771.607,"endTime":3774.007,"body":"I mean, yeah, those cleaning"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3771.607,"endTime":3774.007,"body":"fees have to go somewhere."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3774.067,"endTime":3774.757,"body":"That's true."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3775.447,"endTime":3776.467,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3776.467,"endTime":3778.777,"body":"It's an org design topic for sure."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3778.837,"endTime":3782.497,"body":"I mean, he solved this issue"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3778.837,"endTime":3782.497,"body":"by, by changing the org design"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3782.597,"endTime":3785.597,"body":"luckily, because, I mean, I think"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3782.597,"endTime":3785.597,"body":"of how many organizations that, that"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3785.597,"endTime":3789.182,"body":"were not Airbnb, that did not have"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3785.597,"endTime":3789.182,"body":"so much cash flow that we're not"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3789.182,"endTime":3792.962,"body":"well known in the market that covid"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3789.182,"endTime":3792.962,"body":"hit, it destroyed their business"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3792.962,"endTime":3794.612,"body":"model and then they just disappeared."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3794.612,"endTime":3794.702,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3794.942,"endTime":3800.442,"body":"Whereas air Airbnb could take an 80% dip"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3794.942,"endTime":3800.442,"body":"in revenue and again back to the John"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3800.442,"endTime":3804.062,"body":"Kotter leading change, he could lead them"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3800.442,"endTime":3804.062,"body":"through that change and come out on the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3804.062,"endTime":3805.912,"body":"other side  still solvent as a company."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3806.272,"endTime":3806.422,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3806.422,"endTime":3809.662,"body":"He certainly felt that fire,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3806.422,"endTime":3809.662,"body":"under his seat, so to speak."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3809.662,"endTime":3809.902,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3810.052,"endTime":3810.292,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3810.372,"endTime":3812.272,"body":"Kotter's his first step."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3812.272,"endTime":3812.602,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3812.602,"endTime":3814.072,"body":"Felt something, a burning desire."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3814.072,"endTime":3815.152,"body":"Just felt burning somewhere."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3815.482,"endTime":3815.772,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3815.912,"endTime":3818.066,"body":"See a doctor burning this too long."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3819.476,"endTime":3822.566,"body":"If you like this, hit the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3819.476,"endTime":3822.566,"body":"subscribe and like button down"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3822.571,"endTime":3823.856,"body":"below, somewhere down here."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3823.856,"endTime":3826.164,"body":"Maybe let's know what else"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3823.856,"endTime":3826.164,"body":"you'd like to talk about."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3826.164,"endTime":3826.674,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3826.674,"endTime":3829.327,"body":"And if you would like,"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3826.674,"endTime":3829.327,"body":"there is, arguing agile.com."},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3829.397,"endTime":3834.137,"body":"You can send us questions and we may do a"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3829.397,"endTime":3834.137,"body":"podcast about it in the near future or the"},{"speaker":"I I meant to criticize his","startTime":3834.142,"endTime":3836.687,"body":"far future, or the not too distant future."}]}