{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.81,"body":"If you've been on the old YouTube a"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.81,"body":"while, you've heard the question, should"},{"startTime":2.81,"endTime":6.35,"body":"the same person play the role of the"},{"startTime":2.81,"endTime":6.35,"body":"product owner and the scrum master?"},{"startTime":6.59,"endTime":8.03,"body":"Obviously the answer is no."},{"startTime":8.089,"endTime":9.379,"body":"We're not gonna talk about that today."},{"startTime":9.62,"endTime":13.56,"body":"If you're in this position, what can you"},{"startTime":9.62,"endTime":13.56,"body":"bring to your management to convince them"},{"startTime":13.65,"endTime":16.019,"body":"that this is not an optimal situation?"},{"startTime":16.14,"endTime":19.56,"body":"And then how you go about"},{"startTime":16.14,"endTime":19.56,"body":"splitting these roles."},{"startTime":19.86,"endTime":20.129,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":20.129,"endTime":23.522,"body":"So as always, tons and tons"},{"startTime":20.129,"endTime":23.522,"body":"of value in, this episode."},{"startTime":23.522,"endTime":26.762,"body":"Just like all the other episodes, don't"},{"startTime":23.522,"endTime":26.762,"body":"forget the subscribe and like we're"},{"startTime":26.762,"endTime":28.142,"body":"gonna do this differently this time."},{"startTime":28.242,"endTime":29.803,"body":"Also, Ayo is back."},{"startTime":29.833,"endTime":31.693,"body":"He, how Ayo Ayo is back."},{"startTime":31.693,"endTime":31.863,"body":"Welcome back."},{"startTime":32.053,"endTime":36.463,"body":"He may or may not be putting, random"},{"startTime":32.053,"endTime":36.463,"body":"fingers in the air that mean things."},{"startTime":36.463,"endTime":38.563,"body":"I don't know what fingers"},{"startTime":36.463,"endTime":38.563,"body":"he's shooting at people."},{"startTime":38.873,"endTime":42.353,"body":"If only we had intro music"},{"startTime":38.873,"endTime":42.353,"body":"as well to, double down on."},{"startTime":42.473,"endTime":46.403,"body":"So, let's get the textbook portion of"},{"startTime":42.473,"endTime":46.403,"body":"this podcast outta the way right quick."},{"startTime":46.453,"endTime":48.823,"body":"Conflict of interest is gonna"},{"startTime":46.453,"endTime":48.823,"body":"be the first thing that you see."},{"startTime":49.033,"endTime":53.683,"body":"So let's read the one line description"},{"startTime":49.033,"endTime":53.683,"body":"definitely of product owner and scrum"},{"startTime":53.683,"endTime":56.483,"body":"master and get that out of the way"},{"startTime":53.683,"endTime":56.483,"body":"cuz this is probably the, thing that"},{"startTime":56.483,"endTime":60.473,"body":"I am least interested in discussing"},{"startTime":56.483,"endTime":60.473,"body":"so it says you gotta read both lines."},{"startTime":60.503,"endTime":63.713,"body":"The product owner is accountable for"},{"startTime":60.503,"endTime":63.713,"body":"maximizing the value of the product"},{"startTime":63.893,"endTime":66.473,"body":"resulting from the work of the Scrum team."},{"startTime":66.833,"endTime":67.373,"body":"Second line."},{"startTime":67.463,"endTime":68.123,"body":"Second line."},{"startTime":68.303,"endTime":71.243,"body":"The Scrum master is accountable"},{"startTime":68.303,"endTime":71.243,"body":"for establishing Scrum as"},{"startTime":71.243,"endTime":72.863,"body":"defined in the scrum guide."},{"startTime":73.073,"endTime":75.803,"body":"They do this by helping everyone"},{"startTime":73.073,"endTime":75.803,"body":"understand scrum theory and"},{"startTime":75.803,"endTime":78.593,"body":"practice, both within the Scrum"},{"startTime":75.803,"endTime":78.593,"body":"team and the organization."},{"startTime":78.692,"endTime":81.992,"body":"So it says that the product"},{"startTime":78.692,"endTime":81.992,"body":"owner is accountable for"},{"startTime":82.009,"endTime":83.509,"body":"the success of the product."},{"startTime":83.689,"endTime":87.583,"body":"It says Scrum master is accountable for"},{"startTime":83.689,"endTime":87.583,"body":"the, effectiveness of the Scrum team."},{"startTime":87.853,"endTime":90.253,"body":"So those are two different prerogatives."},{"startTime":90.253,"endTime":90.343,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":90.343,"endTime":90.553,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":91.223,"endTime":92.993,"body":"I'm just saying there's"},{"startTime":91.223,"endTime":92.993,"body":"two different things."},{"startTime":92.993,"endTime":95.213,"body":"It's like saying, well,"},{"startTime":92.993,"endTime":95.213,"body":"you have roles on the team."},{"startTime":95.503,"endTime":98.773,"body":"Let's say you have your, linebacker"},{"startTime":95.503,"endTime":98.773,"body":"and you have your quarterback,"},{"startTime":99.433,"endTime":101.623,"body":"can they both be the same person?"},{"startTime":101.678,"endTime":103.658,"body":"That's what we're talking"},{"startTime":101.678,"endTime":103.658,"body":"about, really different roles."},{"startTime":103.658,"endTime":105.068,"body":"Can they be done by the same person?"},{"startTime":105.142,"endTime":108.772,"body":"Those two are completely, I don't know,"},{"startTime":105.142,"endTime":108.772,"body":"they're completely decoupled in my brain."},{"startTime":109.112,"endTime":111.632,"body":"I'm representing the product,"},{"startTime":109.112,"endTime":111.632,"body":"product owner slash product"},{"startTime":111.632,"endTime":113.072,"body":"manager in this podcast."},{"startTime":113.432,"endTime":118.092,"body":"I spend time with the development team"},{"startTime":113.432,"endTime":118.092,"body":"working on solutions on the technical"},{"startTime":118.097,"endTime":123.902,"body":"side of the house so that when I flip"},{"startTime":118.097,"endTime":123.902,"body":"over to the, strategy and, and pricing"},{"startTime":123.902,"endTime":128.282,"body":"and marketing side of the house, I"},{"startTime":123.902,"endTime":128.282,"body":"can do a whole different job that the"},{"startTime":128.282,"endTime":132.182,"body":"team needs me to do, to promote and"},{"startTime":128.282,"endTime":132.182,"body":"to move forward their product line."},{"startTime":132.872,"endTime":134.252,"body":"And they need me in that business."},{"startTime":134.352,"endTime":137.292,"body":"I don't ever think I've been in"},{"startTime":134.352,"endTime":137.292,"body":"a workplace where they've asked"},{"startTime":137.292,"endTime":140.682,"body":"the product owner to also do"},{"startTime":137.292,"endTime":140.682,"body":"scrum master responsibilities."},{"startTime":141.192,"endTime":142.842,"body":"I think it's always the other way around."},{"startTime":143.052,"endTime":148.512,"body":"You hire Scrum Master and you expect"},{"startTime":143.052,"endTime":148.512,"body":"him to also be the product owner."},{"startTime":148.752,"endTime":150.672,"body":"I don't know if I've seen"},{"startTime":148.752,"endTime":150.672,"body":"the other way around."},{"startTime":151.452,"endTime":156.672,"body":"So I've actually been in such roles"},{"startTime":151.452,"endTime":156.672,"body":"in the past where, I've been hired as"},{"startTime":156.672,"endTime":160.872,"body":"a scrum master, and then I'm acting"},{"startTime":156.672,"endTime":160.872,"body":"as the product owner, the guy who"},{"startTime":160.872,"endTime":164.532,"body":"is, did, did you know that going into"},{"startTime":160.872,"endTime":164.532,"body":"the role or did you get into the role"},{"startTime":164.532,"endTime":168.462,"body":"and say, Hey, you know a lot about"},{"startTime":164.532,"endTime":168.462,"body":"product, why don't you help with this?"},{"startTime":168.462,"endTime":172.289,"body":"And then suddenly helping is actually"},{"startTime":168.462,"endTime":172.289,"body":"you doing the role full-time?"},{"startTime":172.499,"endTime":175.919,"body":"in the last role I didn't,"},{"startTime":172.499,"endTime":175.919,"body":"I did not know going in."},{"startTime":176.729,"endTime":179.579,"body":"I just assumed that I was"},{"startTime":176.729,"endTime":179.579,"body":"gonna be a, a scrum master."},{"startTime":179.729,"endTime":179.969,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":180.119,"endTime":184.409,"body":"And then found out that, oh yeah, we don't"},{"startTime":180.119,"endTime":184.409,"body":"have a product owner for this particular,"},{"startTime":184.414,"endTime":186.809,"body":"for your teams uhhuh, not just team teams."},{"startTime":187.229,"endTime":192.539,"body":"So you just gonna have to wing"},{"startTime":187.229,"endTime":192.539,"body":"it, but luckily I had a manager"},{"startTime":192.539,"endTime":196.139,"body":"who kind of was in those meetings."},{"startTime":196.139,"endTime":199.739,"body":"So he, he, he is more of"},{"startTime":196.139,"endTime":199.739,"body":"a subject matter expert."},{"startTime":199.829,"endTime":199.979,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":200.219,"endTime":203.976,"body":"So he kind of acted as that, but I"},{"startTime":200.219,"endTime":203.976,"body":"still had to bring that those skills"},{"startTime":204.156,"endTime":206.166,"body":"and those reports back to the team."},{"startTime":206.166,"endTime":208.626,"body":"Because I'm the one working with the team,"},{"startTime":206.166,"endTime":208.626,"body":"the manager's not working with the team."},{"startTime":208.626,"endTime":213.216,"body":"He's just, I'm providing high level"},{"startTime":208.626,"endTime":213.216,"body":"discussions and okay, here's what we've"},{"startTime":213.216,"endTime":215.286,"body":"done and here's where we are to him."},{"startTime":215.286,"endTime":218.946,"body":"And then he's in that meeting with"},{"startTime":215.286,"endTime":218.946,"body":"me being a subject matter expert,"},{"startTime":218.946,"endTime":222.766,"body":"saying, okay, based on what the"},{"startTime":218.946,"endTime":222.766,"body":"team has done, here's the next"},{"startTime":222.766,"endTime":223.996,"body":"steps, here's things like that."},{"startTime":223.996,"endTime":230.506,"body":"But yeah, acting in that capacity of"},{"startTime":223.996,"endTime":230.506,"body":"being, yes, fulltime, scrum master, but"},{"startTime":230.506,"endTime":234.016,"body":"then playing a role of Scrum master,"},{"startTime":230.506,"endTime":234.016,"body":"because I think the last one was more"},{"startTime":234.016,"endTime":237.466,"body":"of, in, in infrastructure type stuff."},{"startTime":237.471,"endTime":237.526,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":237.586,"endTime":241.906,"body":"So we really, we were doing more backend"},{"startTime":237.586,"endTime":241.906,"body":"stuff, so they felt that, okay, because"},{"startTime":241.906,"endTime":246.706,"body":"this is backend stuff, there's not"},{"startTime":241.906,"endTime":246.706,"body":"really much to demo to the users, so"},{"startTime":247.306,"endTime":251.056,"body":"they didn't really need to hire products,"},{"startTime":247.306,"endTime":251.056,"body":"which in some ways I kind of agree,"},{"startTime":251.056,"endTime":253.996,"body":"but it's still had, I still have that."},{"startTime":254.386,"endTime":256.626,"body":"Being overburdened of, actually"},{"startTime":256.636,"endTime":258.256,"body":"that's how I got my start in product."},{"startTime":258.676,"endTime":260.656,"body":"I don't know if I ever"},{"startTime":258.676,"endTime":260.656,"body":"told you that story or not."},{"startTime":260.926,"endTime":262.516,"body":"I got my start in product."},{"startTime":262.636,"endTime":269.066,"body":"I was a QA manager and we, we had, we had"},{"startTime":262.636,"endTime":269.066,"body":"tons of backend development tools, backend"},{"startTime":269.066,"endTime":272.546,"body":"development tools to look up things in"},{"startTime":269.066,"endTime":272.546,"body":"the database, backend development tools,"},{"startTime":272.546,"endTime":277.136,"body":"investigate problems in logs, backend"},{"startTime":272.546,"endTime":277.136,"body":"tools to aggregate all the logs together"},{"startTime":277.136,"endTime":280.826,"body":"and show 'em in one, one dashboard"},{"startTime":277.136,"endTime":280.826,"body":"backend tools to interface with things and"},{"startTime":280.831,"endTime":284.336,"body":"change things or whatever and whatever,"},{"startTime":280.831,"endTime":284.336,"body":"delete records or things like that."},{"startTime":284.606,"endTime":287.576,"body":"We had tons of backend tools that"},{"startTime":284.606,"endTime":287.576,"body":"the development team had created,"},{"startTime":288.316,"endTime":292.546,"body":"just by being basically the only"},{"startTime":288.316,"endTime":292.546,"body":"technical people in a small company."},{"startTime":292.921,"endTime":297.301,"body":"And at some point, like one of the C-level"},{"startTime":292.921,"endTime":297.301,"body":"executives is like, look, that's enough."},{"startTime":297.601,"endTime":301.651,"body":"Like we have so many tools floating"},{"startTime":297.601,"endTime":301.651,"body":"around that the developers, when, when"},{"startTime":301.656,"endTime":306.241,"body":"they're working on their normal in sprint"},{"startTime":301.656,"endTime":306.241,"body":"work, in pursuit of a sprint goal, they,"},{"startTime":306.241,"endTime":309.931,"body":"they're like, well, I have to stop to go"},{"startTime":306.241,"endTime":309.931,"body":"enhance this tool or to change this tool"},{"startTime":310.071,"endTime":311.211,"body":"and they were kind of doing the stuff."},{"startTime":311.556,"endTime":312.996,"body":"On on the, on the dl."},{"startTime":313.146,"endTime":313.266,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":313.266,"endTime":313.626,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":313.626,"endTime":315.816,"body":"They were kind of just kind of"},{"startTime":313.626,"endTime":315.816,"body":"sneaking it in cuz it was something"},{"startTime":315.816,"endTime":318.756,"body":"the developers knew and they're"},{"startTime":315.816,"endTime":318.756,"body":"like, look, we, we need transparency."},{"startTime":319.236,"endTime":323.796,"body":"We have to have somebody who knows"},{"startTime":319.236,"endTime":323.796,"body":"what the state of all these tools are,"},{"startTime":323.976,"endTime":327.456,"body":"who can, who can talk to all these"},{"startTime":323.976,"endTime":327.456,"body":"tools and about what their purpose"},{"startTime":327.456,"endTime":328.836,"body":"is and, and talk about the roadmap."},{"startTime":328.841,"endTime":330.186,"body":"Where are we gonna be in two years?"},{"startTime":330.366,"endTime":331.866,"body":"What kind of support tools we have now?"},{"startTime":331.956,"endTime":332.976,"body":"What do we need in the future?"},{"startTime":332.976,"endTime":334.356,"body":"We need a product owner."},{"startTime":335.106,"endTime":337.476,"body":"They, they said product owner"},{"startTime":335.106,"endTime":337.476,"body":"because they, because this was not"},{"startTime":337.476,"endTime":340.506,"body":"like all these tools were internal"},{"startTime":337.476,"endTime":340.506,"body":"facing, so they didn't really think"},{"startTime":340.506,"endTime":341.856,"body":"there was a marketing component."},{"startTime":342.066,"endTime":344.916,"body":"They didn't really think there"},{"startTime":342.066,"endTime":344.916,"body":"was like a, a, a strategy"},{"startTime":344.916,"endTime":346.116,"body":"component to this kind of stuff."},{"startTime":346.116,"endTime":347.286,"body":"That's why they called it product owner."},{"startTime":347.466,"endTime":351.116,"body":"We need someone to play the"},{"startTime":347.466,"endTime":351.116,"body":"role part-time And, they happen"},{"startTime":351.116,"endTime":352.526,"body":"to say like you're a manager."},{"startTime":352.916,"endTime":356.006,"body":"You should be able to take on an"},{"startTime":352.916,"endTime":356.006,"body":"additional responsibility for the"},{"startTime":356.006,"endTime":360.356,"body":"company cuz you know the, oh, you"},{"startTime":356.006,"endTime":360.356,"body":"got a gr bright future here kid."},{"startTime":360.356,"endTime":361.676,"body":"You know, that, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":361.736,"endTime":365.516,"body":"And they, they basically just like pointed"},{"startTime":361.736,"endTime":365.516,"body":"at me and is like, Hey, do you want"},{"startTime":365.516,"endTime":367.076,"body":"to take on this extra responsibility?"},{"startTime":367.166,"endTime":371.886,"body":"And that was my first product owner roles,"},{"startTime":367.166,"endTime":371.886,"body":"internal tools all the development teams,"},{"startTime":372.126,"endTime":375.666,"body":"would use like, Hey, build me a roadmap,"},{"startTime":372.126,"endTime":375.666,"body":"figure out what we're gonna work on."},{"startTime":375.716,"endTime":378.416,"body":"I actually was a product"},{"startTime":375.716,"endTime":378.416,"body":"owner without a team."},{"startTime":378.416,"endTime":378.506,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":379.016,"endTime":384.206,"body":"I had to go to the other product managers"},{"startTime":379.016,"endTime":384.206,"body":"that had teams and ask them, Hey,"},{"startTime":385.316,"endTime":389.186,"body":"you seem to be intersecting with this"},{"startTime":385.316,"endTime":389.186,"body":"functionality in your next sprint or two."},{"startTime":389.636,"endTime":394.046,"body":"Do you think you can ask your team"},{"startTime":389.636,"endTime":394.046,"body":"to add this enhancement to my tool?"},{"startTime":394.076,"endTime":396.656,"body":"And that's, That's how I did anything."},{"startTime":396.926,"endTime":397.586,"body":"I didn't have a team."},{"startTime":397.586,"endTime":399.836,"body":"I could just be like, Hey, they"},{"startTime":397.586,"endTime":399.836,"body":"work for me fulltime, and I'll"},{"startTime":399.841,"endTime":400.736,"body":"just give them stuff to do."},{"startTime":400.886,"endTime":403.286,"body":"I had to go beg other product"},{"startTime":400.886,"endTime":403.286,"body":"managers, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":403.406,"endTime":406.466,"body":"It, it was, I mean like, I would"},{"startTime":403.406,"endTime":406.466,"body":"never want to wor I gonna say, I"},{"startTime":406.466,"endTime":407.606,"body":"would never take that job again."},{"startTime":407.876,"endTime":409.556,"body":"You work in a tool factory, right?"},{"startTime":409.556,"endTime":409.736,"body":"Agile."},{"startTime":409.736,"endTime":410.546,"body":"Is that agile?"},{"startTime":410.906,"endTime":412.106,"body":"Well, its, I that's really agile."},{"startTime":412.111,"endTime":414.926,"body":"It's, it's fragile, agile, but"},{"startTime":412.111,"endTime":414.926,"body":"it, it's, it's getting there."},{"startTime":414.986,"endTime":415.376,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":415.376,"endTime":416.096,"body":"You're not there."},{"startTime":416.396,"endTime":419.006,"body":"At least somebody had the wherewithal"},{"startTime":416.396,"endTime":419.006,"body":"to say, we're a two factory."},{"startTime":419.006,"endTime":419.066,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":419.096,"endTime":420.596,"body":"26 tools and counting."},{"startTime":420.716,"endTime":422.426,"body":"Listen, so let's have someone,"},{"startTime":422.486,"endTime":425.806,"body":"I mean from a, meet them where they are"},{"startTime":422.486,"endTime":425.806,"body":"perspective from, from like an advanced"},{"startTime":425.806,"endTime":429.136,"body":"agile coach, like trying to sell you"},{"startTime":425.806,"endTime":429.136,"body":"their book or training or whatever."},{"startTime":429.141,"endTime":431.206,"body":"Like, oh, buy my, wares on the internet."},{"startTime":431.546,"endTime":437.276,"body":"Hey, at least the executives went out"},{"startTime":431.546,"endTime":437.276,"body":"and said, look, we see that this is a"},{"startTime":437.276,"endTime":439.436,"body":"tool set that we are developing in-house."},{"startTime":439.856,"endTime":443.546,"body":"We should have somebody a, a"},{"startTime":439.856,"endTime":443.546,"body":"single point of contact wrapped"},{"startTime":443.546,"endTime":445.196,"body":"their arms around all the tools."},{"startTime":445.616,"endTime":450.576,"body":"And put a roadmap together even if we"},{"startTime":445.616,"endTime":450.576,"body":"can't afford a team yet, and have them"},{"startTime":450.576,"endTime":453.636,"body":"beg, borrow, and steal development"},{"startTime":450.576,"endTime":453.636,"body":"time from other product managers, like"},{"startTime":453.636,"endTime":456.816,"body":"at least they're, at least they're"},{"startTime":453.636,"endTime":456.816,"body":"collaborating with other people"},{"startTime":456.966,"endTime":458.826,"body":"to, to move their roadmap forward."},{"startTime":458.926,"endTime":460.546,"body":"Interesting that you got into it that way."},{"startTime":460.606,"endTime":460.816,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":460.916,"endTime":461.206,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":461.206,"endTime":461.326,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":461.326,"endTime":462.706,"body":"Mine, mine was slightly different."},{"startTime":463.066,"endTime":463.426,"body":"Oh, really?"},{"startTime":463.426,"endTime":463.846,"body":"Uh, yeah."},{"startTime":463.846,"endTime":464.206,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":464.206,"endTime":469.276,"body":"I, I was a scrum master at, one of the"},{"startTime":464.206,"endTime":469.276,"body":"several teams at, at this, this one place,"},{"startTime":469.636,"endTime":471.496,"body":"and we had a really good product owner."},{"startTime":471.616,"endTime":474.406,"body":"I mean, she was a rockstar,"},{"startTime":471.616,"endTime":474.406,"body":"and then she took maternity."},{"startTime":474.916,"endTime":478.306,"body":"So they're like, well, we've"},{"startTime":474.916,"endTime":478.306,"body":"put a, we put a requisition out."},{"startTime":478.516,"endTime":480.466,"body":"We just can't find anybody as good as her."},{"startTime":480.586,"endTime":480.676,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":480.706,"endTime":482.026,"body":"So you're right."},{"startTime":482.656,"endTime":487.186,"body":"So this is very topical for me"},{"startTime":482.656,"endTime":487.186,"body":"because one day I walk into work,"},{"startTime":487.186,"endTime":489.106,"body":"I'm a scrum master and the po Yeah."},{"startTime":489.436,"endTime":491.806,"body":"That changed pretty quickly"},{"startTime":489.436,"endTime":491.806,"body":"after that because I just didn't"},{"startTime":491.806,"endTime":493.486,"body":"have enough hours in the day."},{"startTime":493.756,"endTime":493.966,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":494.026,"endTime":498.665,"body":"And I wasn't servicing either side,"},{"startTime":494.026,"endTime":498.665,"body":"realistically in any way, shape, or form."},{"startTime":498.742,"endTime":500.902,"body":"But the scrum guide, just"},{"startTime":498.742,"endTime":500.902,"body":"to wrap up, that mm-hmm."},{"startTime":501.142,"endTime":503.902,"body":"Really doesn't have much of"},{"startTime":501.142,"endTime":503.902,"body":"a much of a guidance on this."},{"startTime":503.932,"endTime":504.172,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":504.172,"endTime":504.862,"body":"Did you say."},{"startTime":505.642,"endTime":508.042,"body":"Role eight, role B, what"},{"startTime":505.642,"endTime":508.042,"body":"they're accountable for."},{"startTime":508.042,"endTime":508.522,"body":"And that's it."},{"startTime":508.522,"endTime":508.792,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":509.212,"endTime":509.422,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":509.422,"endTime":512.782,"body":"My critique of the scrum guide here"},{"startTime":509.422,"endTime":512.782,"body":"is it says, Hey, they're just roles."},{"startTime":512.787,"endTime":514.582,"body":"Like, these are not"},{"startTime":512.787,"endTime":514.582,"body":"positions, they're roles."},{"startTime":514.582,"endTime":517.222,"body":"Anyone can quote, play the role."},{"startTime":517.492,"endTime":520.627,"body":"I mean, you can find anybody with a"},{"startTime":517.492,"endTime":520.627,"body":"podcast they're gonna have covered this."},{"startTime":520.677,"endTime":523.887,"body":"But then like, developer is just"},{"startTime":520.677,"endTime":523.887,"body":"another role in the scrum guide."},{"startTime":524.817,"endTime":527.577,"body":"But I would be interested to search"},{"startTime":524.817,"endTime":527.577,"body":"those channels for people talking"},{"startTime":527.577,"endTime":529.527,"body":"about Scrum master and PO in a role."},{"startTime":529.887,"endTime":532.287,"body":"I'd be interested to see if they're,"},{"startTime":529.887,"endTime":532.287,"body":"they're saying the same thing about"},{"startTime":532.287,"endTime":537.897,"body":"developers and scrum master or developers"},{"startTime":532.287,"endTime":537.897,"body":"and pos, like PO being a role that"},{"startTime":537.897,"endTime":541.947,"body":"developers do, I think would be an"},{"startTime":537.897,"endTime":541.947,"body":"interesting podcast to talk about as well."},{"startTime":542.047,"endTime":546.327,"body":"so are we saying there's a chance"},{"startTime":542.047,"endTime":546.327,"body":"that a developer can play either"},{"startTime":546.327,"endTime":549.867,"body":"of those other roles since it's"},{"startTime":546.327,"endTime":549.867,"body":"not a position, it's not a job."},{"startTime":550.332,"endTime":552.552,"body":"It's a role within the Scrum team."},{"startTime":552.792,"endTime":553.962,"body":"You never say never."},{"startTime":553.962,"endTime":555.132,"body":"It never play."},{"startTime":555.162,"endTime":557.592,"body":"But there's different skills,"},{"startTime":555.162,"endTime":557.592,"body":"skills involved though, right?"},{"startTime":557.862,"endTime":564.612,"body":"A product owner isn't simply"},{"startTime":557.862,"endTime":564.612,"body":"just a backlog manager, right?"},{"startTime":564.612,"endTime":568.512,"body":"They're not simply just prioritizing"},{"startTime":564.612,"endTime":568.512,"body":"the backlog, they're actually working"},{"startTime":568.512,"endTime":573.012,"body":"with, if you don't have product"},{"startTime":568.512,"endTime":573.012,"body":"managers, your product owner is also"},{"startTime":573.012,"endTime":574.902,"body":"taking on some of those duties as well."},{"startTime":575.232,"endTime":577.872,"body":"So they have to interface"},{"startTime":575.232,"endTime":577.872,"body":"with the customers."},{"startTime":577.902,"endTime":580.512,"body":"They have to figure out the"},{"startTime":577.902,"endTime":580.512,"body":"strategy of the product constantly."},{"startTime":580.517,"endTime":583.092,"body":"They have to figure out the"},{"startTime":580.517,"endTime":583.092,"body":"pricing, all of those things."},{"startTime":583.097,"endTime":587.292,"body":"And then you could argue a developer"},{"startTime":583.097,"endTime":587.292,"body":"could do that, but I'd say most developers"},{"startTime":587.292,"endTime":591.912,"body":"aren't comfortable in those situations"},{"startTime":587.292,"endTime":591.912,"body":"where they have to talk about pricing,"},{"startTime":591.912,"endTime":595.782,"body":"they have to talk about marketing, work"},{"startTime":591.912,"endTime":595.782,"body":"with sales, work with customers, right?"},{"startTime":595.782,"endTime":595.842,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":595.912,"endTime":600.322,"body":"Anytime I see someone playing more than"},{"startTime":595.912,"endTime":600.322,"body":"one role from the scrum guide to the"},{"startTime":600.322,"endTime":604.492,"body":"scrum team, I have to think like, what are"},{"startTime":600.322,"endTime":604.492,"body":"they dropping, what are they not doing?"},{"startTime":604.632,"endTime":608.322,"body":"It sounds like you have some"},{"startTime":604.632,"endTime":608.322,"body":"things in your day job and now"},{"startTime":608.322,"endTime":610.572,"body":"you're taking on a nighttime job."},{"startTime":611.262,"endTime":614.792,"body":"It sounds like you're doing working"},{"startTime":611.262,"endTime":614.792,"body":"two jobs To me that's, if I'm running"},{"startTime":614.792,"endTime":618.252,"body":"a company, I want someone doing"},{"startTime":614.792,"endTime":618.252,"body":"the best development job possible."},{"startTime":618.572,"endTime":621.932,"body":"Same thing when I think about product"},{"startTime":618.572,"endTime":621.932,"body":"owner, I, I, I don't just want my product"},{"startTime":621.932,"endTime":626.517,"body":"owner involved, in writing good stories"},{"startTime":621.932,"endTime":626.517,"body":"and having the BA skillset and stuff like"},{"startTime":626.517,"endTime":628.497,"body":"that I want them interfacing with sales."},{"startTime":628.497,"endTime":630.777,"body":"I want all the salespeople"},{"startTime":628.497,"endTime":630.777,"body":"to know my product owner."},{"startTime":630.827,"endTime":635.327,"body":"I want my salespeople to trust my"},{"startTime":630.827,"endTime":635.327,"body":"product people so much that they"},{"startTime":635.327,"endTime":638.717,"body":"grab them and bring them into all"},{"startTime":635.327,"endTime":638.717,"body":"their sales demos and presentations."},{"startTime":638.967,"endTime":641.962,"body":"But bottom line, the company's"},{"startTime":638.967,"endTime":641.962,"body":"the one that, that, that started"},{"startTime":641.962,"endTime":643.222,"body":"this problem in the first place."},{"startTime":643.702,"endTime":647.092,"body":"They're trying to save money by"},{"startTime":643.702,"endTime":647.092,"body":"saying, Hey, I've, I hired, just"},{"startTime":647.092,"endTime":651.022,"body":"hired this Scrum Master, and I"},{"startTime":647.092,"endTime":651.022,"body":"want him to be the product owner."},{"startTime":651.202,"endTime":653.872,"body":"So they're the ones that"},{"startTime":651.202,"endTime":653.872,"body":"causes this problem in the"},{"startTime":653.877,"endTime":655.432,"body":"first place because, so maybe"},{"startTime":655.448,"endTime":660.698,"body":"so to their defense, right, they may"},{"startTime":655.448,"endTime":660.698,"body":"not know, they may not know the depth of"},{"startTime":661.448,"endTime":664.178,"body":"what these roles actually entail, right?"},{"startTime":664.418,"endTime":667.208,"body":"They may think, well, you're"},{"startTime":664.418,"endTime":667.208,"body":"working with the team, aren't you?"},{"startTime":667.208,"endTime":670.058,"body":"You're there working with the team,"},{"startTime":667.208,"endTime":670.058,"body":"product owner and scrum master."},{"startTime":670.058,"endTime":670.808,"body":"What do you do all day?"},{"startTime":671.153,"endTime":673.913,"body":"You work with the team too, so why"},{"startTime":671.153,"endTime":673.913,"body":"do we need two people to work with?"},{"startTime":673.913,"endTime":674.453,"body":"The teams"},{"startTime":674.453,"endTime":678.293,"body":"when I see a development team"},{"startTime":674.453,"endTime":678.293,"body":"member playing the role of a scrum"},{"startTime":678.293,"endTime":682.343,"body":"master, I immediately envision"},{"startTime":678.293,"endTime":682.343,"body":"somebody who is overburdened."},{"startTime":682.393,"endTime":687.343,"body":"Before we started the podcast, I talked"},{"startTime":682.393,"endTime":687.343,"body":"to om about, when I was, on contract"},{"startTime":687.343,"endTime":692.953,"body":"one time, I was playing the role of,"},{"startTime":687.343,"endTime":692.953,"body":"of multiple roles on the scrum team."},{"startTime":693.103,"endTime":693.193,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":693.193,"endTime":697.333,"body":"And I remember the, the, the, the,"},{"startTime":693.193,"endTime":697.333,"body":"the contract, the, the point of"},{"startTime":697.338,"endTime":700.183,"body":"contact for the contract, the,"},{"startTime":697.338,"endTime":700.183,"body":"whoever, the, I don't know, I don't"},{"startTime":700.188,"endTime":701.323,"body":"remember the delivery manager."},{"startTime":701.323,"endTime":702.163,"body":"Delivery manager, yeah."},{"startTime":702.163,"endTime":702.913,"body":"Whatever they're called."},{"startTime":703.123,"endTime":707.803,"body":"The, the, the person who manages a"},{"startTime":703.123,"endTime":707.803,"body":"contract at that, at that, organization."},{"startTime":708.133,"endTime":712.215,"body":"I remember them saying like, we are"},{"startTime":708.133,"endTime":712.215,"body":"willing to, to support you, however you"},{"startTime":712.22,"endTime":714.84,"body":"think the contract will be most effective."},{"startTime":714.99,"endTime":718.98,"body":"So if you need to basically point at"},{"startTime":714.99,"endTime":718.98,"body":"people on the, on the development team"},{"startTime":718.98,"endTime":723.62,"body":"and say, you are now the product owner"},{"startTime":718.98,"endTime":723.62,"body":"and you are now the scrum master and then"},{"startTime":723.62,"endTime":728.99,"body":"move yourself back up to a more coaching,"},{"startTime":723.62,"endTime":728.99,"body":"executive coaching type of position."},{"startTime":729.23,"endTime":732.95,"body":"I figure somebody who's doing the"},{"startTime":729.23,"endTime":732.95,"body":"product owner and scrum master role,"},{"startTime":733.55,"endTime":737.33,"body":"they're probably overburdened, they're"},{"startTime":733.55,"endTime":737.33,"body":"probably doing, and not probably"},{"startTime":737.48,"endTime":740.12,"body":"definitely overburdened like a,"},{"startTime":737.48,"endTime":740.12,"body":"let's think about this for a second."},{"startTime":740.22,"endTime":742.98,"body":"Actually, you know what we didn't talk"},{"startTime":740.22,"endTime":742.98,"body":"about up until this point, people doing"},{"startTime":742.98,"endTime":745.89,"body":"this role that are like development"},{"startTime":742.98,"endTime":745.89,"body":"leads, a lot of development leads"},{"startTime":745.89,"endTime":749.79,"body":"get caught in the role of like, well"},{"startTime":745.89,"endTime":749.79,"body":"you are answerable to the product."},{"startTime":749.94,"endTime":750.06,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":750.305,"endTime":752.85,"body":"For the technical piece."},{"startTime":752.85,"endTime":754.98,"body":"Technical direction, yeah."},{"startTime":755.01,"endTime":756.9,"body":"Which ends up basically"},{"startTime":755.01,"endTime":756.9,"body":"being prioritization."},{"startTime":756.9,"endTime":757.2,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":757.205,"endTime":757.29,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":757.8,"endTime":762.18,"body":"And then, but then you're also, answerable"},{"startTime":757.8,"endTime":762.18,"body":"to all the development work, the actual"},{"startTime":762.18,"endTime":763.95,"body":"in, like in the weeds development work."},{"startTime":763.955,"endTime":764.07,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":764.34,"endTime":767.82,"body":"So you end up basically playing both"},{"startTime":764.34,"endTime":767.82,"body":"these roles and you don't even know it"},{"startTime":768.36,"endTime":772.32,"body":"because your organization doesn't hire a"},{"startTime":768.36,"endTime":772.32,"body":"scrum master and they don't really define"},{"startTime":772.32,"endTime":774.69,"body":"clearly the product owner slash manager."},{"startTime":775.08,"endTime":776.46,"body":"So you end up doing both of these."},{"startTime":776.55,"endTime":780.24,"body":"So if you're in that position, it would"},{"startTime":776.55,"endTime":780.24,"body":"be great to back up a second and be"},{"startTime":780.24,"endTime":785.52,"body":"like, well actually if I, and especially"},{"startTime":780.24,"endTime":785.52,"body":"if you have multiple teams to back up"},{"startTime":785.52,"endTime":789.09,"body":"a second and say, well actually, why"},{"startTime":785.52,"endTime":789.09,"body":"don't I just pick people on the team?"},{"startTime":789.09,"endTime":790.38,"body":"Be like, you are the scrum master now."},{"startTime":790.59,"endTime":791.73,"body":"You are the product owner now."},{"startTime":791.91,"endTime":797.38,"body":"And then I'm gonna play more of a"},{"startTime":791.91,"endTime":797.38,"body":"collaborative coaching type of role."},{"startTime":798.055,"endTime":801.475,"body":"Where I help you connect to the"},{"startTime":798.055,"endTime":801.475,"body":"business when you need the help."},{"startTime":802.015,"endTime":807.385,"body":"Otherwise, I'm going to trust that"},{"startTime":802.015,"endTime":807.385,"body":"you can get the job done, and when you"},{"startTime":807.445,"endTime":809.185,"body":"fail to get the job done, I'll step in."},{"startTime":809.425,"endTime":812.635,"body":"And when you ask, when you scream for"},{"startTime":809.425,"endTime":812.635,"body":"help to get the job done, I'll step in."},{"startTime":812.755,"endTime":819.625,"body":"I, I think that's, that's a really valid"},{"startTime":812.755,"endTime":819.625,"body":"point is that you as this kind of coach,"},{"startTime":819.805,"endTime":825.37,"body":"right, agile coach or or consultant,"},{"startTime":819.805,"endTime":825.37,"body":"you are the safety net for these people."},{"startTime":825.37,"endTime":825.46,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":825.46,"endTime":827.29,"body":"So they know they can't fail, right?"},{"startTime":827.38,"endTime":829.66,"body":"They can't fail hard because"},{"startTime":827.38,"endTime":829.66,"body":"you're there to catch 'em."},{"startTime":829.96,"endTime":834.265,"body":"But the other side of it is when"},{"startTime":829.96,"endTime":834.265,"body":"before you do that, I think you"},{"startTime":834.27,"endTime":838.495,"body":"need to look at the teams and say,"},{"startTime":834.27,"endTime":838.495,"body":"do they have the right kind of"},{"startTime":838.495,"endTime":841.165,"body":"skillsets to carry out these roles?"},{"startTime":841.195,"endTime":841.345,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":841.345,"endTime":842.635,"body":"You may need to supplant those."},{"startTime":842.635,"endTime":845.845,"body":"So if you're a coach, maybe just"},{"startTime":842.635,"endTime":845.845,"body":"have a couple of webinars or, or,"},{"startTime":846.805,"endTime":851.185,"body":"sessions with your team members and"},{"startTime":846.805,"endTime":851.185,"body":"bring their skillsets up a little,"},{"startTime":851.245,"endTime":852.535,"body":"even though you're there to catch 'em."},{"startTime":852.595,"endTime":852.805,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":853.015,"endTime":855.175,"body":"They're gonna feel pretty"},{"startTime":853.015,"endTime":855.175,"body":"vulnerable otherwise, right."},{"startTime":855.175,"endTime":855.235,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":855.235,"endTime":858.385,"body":"It's like saying, well, a"},{"startTime":855.235,"endTime":858.385,"body":"football team has a, a linebacker"},{"startTime":858.385,"endTime":860.095,"body":"and a, and a, quarterback."},{"startTime":860.155,"endTime":861.685,"body":"Can one person do both?"},{"startTime":861.895,"endTime":862.135,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":862.229,"endTime":864.629,"body":"I'm gonna ask Tom Brady that"},{"startTime":862.229,"endTime":864.629,"body":"when I see him in Miami."},{"startTime":864.659,"endTime":869.094,"body":"Isn't the business gonna tell you like,"},{"startTime":864.659,"endTime":869.094,"body":"you're not excelling at any one job."},{"startTime":869.394,"endTime":870.924,"body":"Isn't that what the business is gonna say?"},{"startTime":871.659,"endTime":873.759,"body":"That's exactly what the"},{"startTime":871.659,"endTime":873.759,"body":"business is going to say."},{"startTime":873.764,"endTime":877.299,"body":"But they may not even know that you're"},{"startTime":873.764,"endTime":877.299,"body":"not excelling other than, what they're"},{"startTime":877.299,"endTime":881.669,"body":"gonna look at is, the metrics, or are"},{"startTime":877.299,"endTime":881.669,"body":"they're gonna look at the metrics, right?"},{"startTime":881.674,"endTime":883.949,"body":"And then they're gonna say,"},{"startTime":881.674,"endTime":883.949,"body":"we're not getting this, we"},{"startTime":883.949,"endTime":884.969,"body":"are also not getting this."},{"startTime":884.969,"endTime":885.059,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":885.149,"endTime":888.209,"body":"Who's, who's on, who, who's on for that?"},{"startTime":888.299,"endTime":889.229,"body":"It's this one guy."},{"startTime":889.289,"endTime":889.529,"body":"Pardon?"},{"startTime":889.529,"endTime":890.729,"body":"Or one person."},{"startTime":890.789,"endTime":895.979,"body":"Like, part of being overburdened is this"},{"startTime":890.789,"endTime":895.979,"body":"reduction, reduction of accountability."},{"startTime":896.159,"endTime":900.269,"body":"If you're trying to play the"},{"startTime":896.159,"endTime":900.269,"body":"role with, with one person."},{"startTime":901.019,"endTime":904.229,"body":"And management is trying"},{"startTime":901.019,"endTime":904.229,"body":"to hold him accountable and"},{"startTime":904.229,"endTime":905.699,"body":"saying, well, you know what?"},{"startTime":905.699,"endTime":909.439,"body":"Like, the team's not really evolving"},{"startTime":905.699,"endTime":909.439,"body":"and what, and then, but you're also"},{"startTime":909.439,"endTime":913.249,"body":"flipping over to Well, also like"},{"startTime":909.439,"endTime":913.249,"body":"the product is not really moving"},{"startTime":913.249,"endTime":916.039,"body":"into the markets I want, like those"},{"startTime":913.249,"endTime":916.039,"body":"are two different conversations."},{"startTime":916.069,"endTime":920.019,"body":"Like I'm trying to say it's difficult"},{"startTime":916.069,"endTime":920.019,"body":"for management to hold one person"},{"startTime":920.199,"endTime":925.089,"body":"accountable for both the team evolution,"},{"startTime":920.199,"endTime":925.089,"body":"internal type stuff, and also the"},{"startTime":925.089,"endTime":926.949,"body":"product on the market evolution."},{"startTime":927.549,"endTime":932.169,"body":"Hey, om, well, welcome to Brian oms,"},{"startTime":927.549,"endTime":932.169,"body":"software Development Company Ayo okay."},{"startTime":932.169,"endTime":935.549,"body":"Well, welcome tha thanks for"},{"startTime":932.169,"endTime":935.549,"body":"being our, our new employee Ayo."},{"startTime":936.099,"endTime":938.589,"body":"You're in charge for this"},{"startTime":936.099,"endTime":938.589,"body":"specific thing for the business."},{"startTime":938.589,"endTime":939.549,"body":"That's why we hired you."},{"startTime":939.554,"endTime":939.739,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":939.774,"endTime":941.694,"body":"You, you went through"},{"startTime":939.774,"endTime":941.694,"body":"the, the hiring process."},{"startTime":941.694,"endTime":943.434,"body":"We told you all about this accountability."},{"startTime":943.614,"endTime":944.964,"body":"We, we showed it from all sides."},{"startTime":945.014,"endTime":946.814,"body":"We showed it from the good"},{"startTime":945.014,"endTime":946.814,"body":"side, from the bad side."},{"startTime":946.814,"endTime":948.584,"body":"We expose you all to all sides of it."},{"startTime":948.824,"endTime":949.964,"body":"This is your accountability."},{"startTime":949.964,"endTime":954.674,"body":"Now we're everybody in the business, we're"},{"startTime":949.964,"endTime":954.674,"body":"directing to you about this one thing."},{"startTime":954.854,"endTime":955.124,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":955.544,"endTime":955.874,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":956.294,"endTime":962.114,"body":"So one thing though, not 15 things."},{"startTime":962.119,"endTime":962.364,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":962.444,"endTime":962.764,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":962.769,"endTime":964.364,"body":"Not three things, not six things."},{"startTime":964.514,"endTime":967.424,"body":"Like how many things can we dump"},{"startTime":964.514,"endTime":967.424,"body":"on you and say, Hey, everybody."},{"startTime":967.784,"endTime":970.484,"body":"From all around the business is"},{"startTime":967.784,"endTime":970.484,"body":"gonna ask you about this now, and"},{"startTime":970.574,"endTime":971.564,"body":"they're all gonna come to you."},{"startTime":972.024,"endTime":975.354,"body":"And they're gonna ask you"},{"startTime":972.024,"endTime":975.354,"body":"about a half dozen things."},{"startTime":975.564,"endTime":975.924,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":976.074,"endTime":977.424,"body":"Potentially unrelated."},{"startTime":977.614,"endTime":979.709,"body":"And that's, and that's where"},{"startTime":977.614,"endTime":979.709,"body":"those two points come in."},{"startTime":980.039,"endTime":983.189,"body":"They've being overburdened and the"},{"startTime":980.039,"endTime":983.189,"body":"conflict of interest is like, okay,"},{"startTime":984.119,"endTime":987.539,"body":"I'm supposed to be able to support the"},{"startTime":984.119,"endTime":987.539,"body":"team and making sure they're delivering"},{"startTime":987.569,"endTime":989.069,"body":"right and the value and all that stuff."},{"startTime":989.399,"endTime":992.009,"body":"But at the same time, I'm supposed to"},{"startTime":989.399,"endTime":992.009,"body":"support the business and making sure"},{"startTime":992.009,"endTime":995.579,"body":"that the business, I'm getting all the"},{"startTime":992.009,"endTime":995.579,"body":"right information from the business,"},{"startTime":995.579,"endTime":996.899,"body":"I'm getting all the requirements and."},{"startTime":997.454,"endTime":1001.534,"body":"Yeah, I'm able to present back to the"},{"startTime":997.454,"endTime":1001.534,"body":"business what is there, and that's"},{"startTime":1001.534,"endTime":1007.354,"body":"where, yeah, those two points come in"},{"startTime":1001.534,"endTime":1007.354,"body":"because there's a conflict of, okay,"},{"startTime":1007.774,"endTime":1010.564,"body":"who do I, who, who am I loyal to?"},{"startTime":1010.924,"endTime":1011.634,"body":"Am I loyal to the team?"},{"startTime":1011.734,"endTime":1012.574,"body":"Who are you serving, right?"},{"startTime":1012.574,"endTime":1012.784,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1012.784,"endTime":1013.774,"body":"Am I loyal to the team?"},{"startTime":1013.774,"endTime":1014.824,"body":"Am I loyal to the business?"},{"startTime":1014.824,"endTime":1015.634,"body":"Am I serving the team?"},{"startTime":1015.634,"endTime":1016.684,"body":"Am I serving the business?"},{"startTime":1017.134,"endTime":1022.894,"body":"And then if I'm serving both, then"},{"startTime":1017.134,"endTime":1022.894,"body":"that makes me feel overburdened."},{"startTime":1022.894,"endTime":1025.144,"body":"And is a company willing to pay that?"},{"startTime":1025.624,"endTime":1028.744,"body":"Are we gonna go back to the, to the,"},{"startTime":1025.624,"endTime":1028.744,"body":"well, a million dollar paycheck that,"},{"startTime":1028.984,"endTime":1031.795,"body":"what's the name Andrew Carnegie gave,"},{"startTime":1028.984,"endTime":1031.795,"body":"was getting, well, I think, think"},{"startTime":1032.374,"endTime":1033.904,"body":"be able to pay that much these days,"},{"startTime":1033.909,"endTime":1038.224,"body":"but as a scrum master, one, one"},{"startTime":1033.909,"endTime":1038.224,"body":"of the things you do is to coach"},{"startTime":1038.224,"endTime":1039.604,"body":"up in the organization, right?"},{"startTime":1039.604,"endTime":1045.634,"body":"So I think it behooves a scrum master,"},{"startTime":1039.604,"endTime":1045.634,"body":"even if you're playing the role, when"},{"startTime":1046.504,"endTime":1052.654,"body":"other responsibilities are thrust"},{"startTime":1046.504,"endTime":1052.654,"body":"upon you, to elevate that when you're"},{"startTime":1052.654,"endTime":1056.164,"body":"coaching up, just say, look, I can"},{"startTime":1052.654,"endTime":1056.164,"body":"do one thing really, really well,"},{"startTime":1056.224,"endTime":1058.174,"body":"or I can do two things not so well."},{"startTime":1058.234,"endTime":1060.094,"body":"Or I can do 15 things terribly."},{"startTime":1060.124,"endTime":1060.334,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1060.544,"endTime":1061.504,"body":"What would you like me to do?"},{"startTime":1062.194,"endTime":1063.454,"body":"Ask executives that."},{"startTime":1063.545,"endTime":1065.875,"body":"With regard to startups, yes."},{"startTime":1065.925,"endTime":1069.885,"body":"So you could have multiple things,"},{"startTime":1065.925,"endTime":1069.885,"body":"multiple hats, as is colloquially known."},{"startTime":1069.885,"endTime":1070.185,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1070.755,"endTime":1073.095,"body":"But then there you have to"},{"startTime":1070.755,"endTime":1073.095,"body":"make a decision for yourself."},{"startTime":1073.125,"endTime":1075.255,"body":"Is this worth it for"},{"startTime":1073.125,"endTime":1075.255,"body":"you to be overburdened?"},{"startTime":1075.255,"endTime":1075.345,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1075.675,"endTime":1078.495,"body":"You know, looking at all these"},{"startTime":1075.675,"endTime":1078.495,"body":"stock options that you got,"},{"startTime":1078.525,"endTime":1080.115,"body":"which may or may not materialize."},{"startTime":1080.49,"endTime":1084.0,"body":"I can tell you as a former paper"},{"startTime":1080.49,"endTime":1084.0,"body":"millionaire, I'm still sitting here."},{"startTime":1084.36,"endTime":1089.13,"body":"So anyway, that's a decision an"},{"startTime":1084.36,"endTime":1089.13,"body":"individual has to make for themselves."},{"startTime":1089.61,"endTime":1096.3,"body":"But it still is within your role"},{"startTime":1089.61,"endTime":1096.3,"body":"as a scrum master to elevate this"},{"startTime":1096.3,"endTime":1099.0,"body":"topic that you're overburdened."},{"startTime":1099.24,"endTime":1099.57,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1099.96,"endTime":1102.15,"body":"Well, it's, it's, and guide"},{"startTime":1099.96,"endTime":1102.15,"body":"your leadership toward,"},{"startTime":1102.15,"endTime":1102.91,"body":"again, the Right, right."},{"startTime":1102.91,"endTime":1103.38,"body":"Solution, solution."},{"startTime":1103.41,"endTime":1108.66,"body":"If you are at the point where I've got"},{"startTime":1103.41,"endTime":1108.66,"body":"10, okay, if I got a food truck and"},{"startTime":1108.66,"endTime":1112.08,"body":"I'm serving 10 customers, that's cool."},{"startTime":1112.085,"endTime":1114.81,"body":"I, I could be the cook, I could be"},{"startTime":1112.085,"endTime":1114.81,"body":"the server, I could be all of that."},{"startTime":1114.81,"endTime":1114.99,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1115.53,"endTime":1119.16,"body":"But if I'm opening an Applebee's where"},{"startTime":1115.53,"endTime":1119.16,"body":"I got a hundred or 200 people coming"},{"startTime":1119.16,"endTime":1121.74,"body":"in there, I can't be everything."},{"startTime":1122.52,"endTime":1124.68,"body":"So if you're small enough, that's fine."},{"startTime":1125.31,"endTime":1126.81,"body":"I could be everything."},{"startTime":1126.87,"endTime":1128.8,"body":"Not according to the Scrum guide."},{"startTime":1128.82,"endTime":1130.68,"body":"Hey, according to the Scrum"},{"startTime":1128.82,"endTime":1130.68,"body":"guy, you do everything."},{"startTime":1130.68,"endTime":1134.07,"body":"Remember Scrum guide and say it's a role,"},{"startTime":1130.68,"endTime":1134.07,"body":"it's not a position, it's not a person."},{"startTime":1134.07,"endTime":1134.43,"body":"It's a role."},{"startTime":1134.91,"endTime":1135.27,"body":"I understand."},{"startTime":1135.27,"endTime":1135.272,"body":"I understand."},{"startTime":1135.277,"endTime":1138.99,"body":"So, If that role can be"},{"startTime":1135.277,"endTime":1138.99,"body":"accomplished by one person for"},{"startTime":1138.99,"endTime":1141.27,"body":"one project, that's small enough."},{"startTime":1141.3,"endTime":1142.23,"body":"I know that's fine."},{"startTime":1142.23,"endTime":1147.63,"body":"But when you are talking about, oh, I"},{"startTime":1142.23,"endTime":1147.63,"body":"gotta deliver this huge mansion or this"},{"startTime":1147.84,"endTime":1153.135,"body":"huge shopping center, I can't be the, the"},{"startTime":1147.84,"endTime":1153.135,"body":"electrician, the, the plumber, the brick"},{"startTime":1153.135,"endTime":1155.685,"body":"layer, the architect and all of that."},{"startTime":1155.785,"endTime":1160.255,"body":"I've never been in the position where I'm"},{"startTime":1155.785,"endTime":1160.255,"body":"the product owner and the scrum master."},{"startTime":1160.555,"endTime":1164.665,"body":"However, I have been in the position"},{"startTime":1160.555,"endTime":1164.665,"body":"where I'm the product owner, product"},{"startTime":1164.665,"endTime":1169.555,"body":"owner, role slash product manager, and"},{"startTime":1164.665,"endTime":1169.555,"body":"I'm the expert in the room with regard"},{"startTime":1169.56,"endTime":1173.815,"body":"to anything they're gonna talk about"},{"startTime":1169.56,"endTime":1173.815,"body":"Scrum master related cuz like, I'm not"},{"startTime":1173.815,"endTime":1178.165,"body":"only the company's first product hire,"},{"startTime":1173.815,"endTime":1178.165,"body":"but I'm also the person in the company"},{"startTime":1178.165,"endTime":1181.225,"body":"who has the most experience in agility."},{"startTime":1181.405,"endTime":1182.065,"body":"Agility, yes."},{"startTime":1182.185,"endTime":1182.395,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1182.425,"endTime":1186.285,"body":"In agile, so by default people"},{"startTime":1182.425,"endTime":1186.285,"body":"in the company are coming"},{"startTime":1186.285,"endTime":1188.025,"body":"to me to ask me questions."},{"startTime":1188.025,"endTime":1191.865,"body":"So whereas I am not their scrum"},{"startTime":1188.025,"endTime":1191.865,"body":"master, even their scrum master"},{"startTime":1191.865,"endTime":1195.825,"body":"is coming to me asking me basic"},{"startTime":1191.865,"endTime":1195.825,"body":"questions and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1195.825,"endTime":1196.905,"body":"And I'm trying to help them."},{"startTime":1197.125,"endTime":1201.285,"body":"I, as the product person,  I'm trying"},{"startTime":1197.125,"endTime":1201.285,"body":"to justify a business case why they"},{"startTime":1201.285,"endTime":1206.415,"body":"need to separate the role and make"},{"startTime":1201.285,"endTime":1206.415,"body":"it an individual job, not just a"},{"startTime":1206.415,"endTime":1208.155,"body":"role that someone does for part-time."},{"startTime":1208.275,"endTime":1208.515,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1208.515,"endTime":1211.425,"body":"You know, I don't, I don't want it to"},{"startTime":1208.515,"endTime":1211.425,"body":"be a part-time thing because I know"},{"startTime":1211.495,"endTime":1215.935,"body":"this company may not ha, may not have"},{"startTime":1211.495,"endTime":1215.935,"body":"reached a maturity level to understand"},{"startTime":1216.115,"endTime":1217.675,"body":"that they need this role full-time."},{"startTime":1217.915,"endTime":1221.305,"body":"But I'm trying to evolve this"},{"startTime":1217.915,"endTime":1221.305,"body":"product towards the future."},{"startTime":1222.055,"endTime":1225.235,"body":"I only want to kind of be"},{"startTime":1222.055,"endTime":1225.235,"body":"consulted in these discussions."},{"startTime":1225.73,"endTime":1226.66,"body":"To move them forward."},{"startTime":1226.72,"endTime":1229.03,"body":"I need somebody else to do all that."},{"startTime":1229.24,"endTime":1232.63,"body":"And you can have a business leader, maybe"},{"startTime":1229.24,"endTime":1232.63,"body":"like a, if you have a really talented,"},{"startTime":1233.08,"endTime":1236.56,"body":"I don't know, director of operations"},{"startTime":1233.08,"endTime":1236.56,"body":"or something like that, maybe they have"},{"startTime":1236.56,"endTime":1237.79,"body":"the talent to do this kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1238.06,"endTime":1241.21,"body":"But I mean, I mean, if you're"},{"startTime":1238.06,"endTime":1241.21,"body":"an Agile coach listening to this"},{"startTime":1241.21,"endTime":1242.86,"body":"like, Hey, there's one right here."},{"startTime":1242.98,"endTime":1243.94,"body":"Congratulations."},{"startTime":1243.995,"endTime":1247.655,"body":"You have what it takes to, to run"},{"startTime":1243.995,"endTime":1247.655,"body":"operations for a small to medium"},{"startTime":1247.655,"endTime":1251.045,"body":"sized business because that's, that's"},{"startTime":1247.655,"endTime":1251.045,"body":"basically what agile coaches do all day."},{"startTime":1251.045,"endTime":1255.125,"body":"They say like, well, this team talks"},{"startTime":1251.045,"endTime":1255.125,"body":"to this team in this manner, and"},{"startTime":1255.125,"endTime":1258.185,"body":"this team operates back to the rest"},{"startTime":1255.125,"endTime":1258.185,"body":"of the business in this manner."},{"startTime":1258.965,"endTime":1261.365,"body":"They talk about the, the way"},{"startTime":1258.965,"endTime":1261.365,"body":"teams communicate with each other"},{"startTime":1261.455,"endTime":1262.685,"body":"and the way teams are set up."},{"startTime":1263.135,"endTime":1265.385,"body":"And I, I need someone to"},{"startTime":1263.135,"endTime":1265.385,"body":"be an expert at all that."},{"startTime":1265.385,"endTime":1268.475,"body":"So it seems like we're dangerously"},{"startTime":1265.385,"endTime":1268.475,"body":"getting into a part where, at least to"},{"startTime":1268.475,"endTime":1275.765,"body":"me, that we're talking about maybe the"},{"startTime":1268.475,"endTime":1275.765,"body":"guys who made the update to the 2020 Scrum"},{"startTime":1275.765,"endTime":1278.165,"body":"guide were wrong by making these roles."},{"startTime":1278.975,"endTime":1280.775,"body":"No, I, I, I don't think so."},{"startTime":1280.805,"endTime":1285.335,"body":"I, I, I think the updates, were"},{"startTime":1280.805,"endTime":1285.335,"body":"really a reaction to the objections."},{"startTime":1285.335,"endTime":1287.585,"body":"I get the whole obvious, but I'm"},{"startTime":1285.335,"endTime":1287.585,"body":"talking about that, that part of"},{"startTime":1287.585,"endTime":1292.325,"body":"making these functions roles because"},{"startTime":1287.585,"endTime":1292.325,"body":"if you're saying there are roles,"},{"startTime":1292.625,"endTime":1294.215,"body":"that means anybody can do it."},{"startTime":1294.275,"endTime":1294.995,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1295.055,"endTime":1297.155,"body":"Anybody can do it, but should they do it?"},{"startTime":1297.155,"endTime":1298.245,"body":"That's question we're asking."},{"startTime":1298.345,"endTime":1299.705,"body":"That's the same thing on the podcast."},{"startTime":1299.915,"endTime":1302.495,"body":"So I think if you look at the"},{"startTime":1299.915,"endTime":1302.495,"body":"essence of the scrum guide,"},{"startTime":1302.825,"endTime":1305.105,"body":"it relates to a Scrum team."},{"startTime":1305.435,"endTime":1305.675,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1306.005,"endTime":1310.235,"body":"It doesn't say, this is how you stamp"},{"startTime":1306.005,"endTime":1310.235,"body":"out multiple Scrum teams and you"},{"startTime":1310.235,"endTime":1311.885,"body":"scale up in a way that makes sense."},{"startTime":1311.945,"endTime":1312.035,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1312.275,"endTime":1313.895,"body":"There's none of that in the Scrum guide."},{"startTime":1313.895,"endTime":1317.315,"body":"In fact, go search the scrum"},{"startTime":1313.895,"endTime":1317.315,"body":"guide for the word scale."},{"startTime":1318.26,"endTime":1318.92,"body":"I won't do it."},{"startTime":1319.07,"endTime":1322.94,"body":"No, you shouldn't do it because you'd be"},{"startTime":1319.07,"endTime":1322.94,"body":"very underwhelmed by the results, right?"},{"startTime":1322.94,"endTime":1323.84,"body":"So, okay."},{"startTime":1323.84,"endTime":1328.07,"body":"It makes sense for people who are"},{"startTime":1323.84,"endTime":1328.07,"body":"adopting Scrum from scratch, right?"},{"startTime":1328.07,"endTime":1331.19,"body":"You have a team, let's, let's"},{"startTime":1328.07,"endTime":1331.19,"body":"have that team look at the scrum"},{"startTime":1331.19,"endTime":1336.2,"body":"guide, implement that to the"},{"startTime":1331.19,"endTime":1336.2,"body":"letter T, and they will succeed."},{"startTime":1336.38,"endTime":1337.52,"body":"But then what happens next?"},{"startTime":1337.55,"endTime":1338.3,"body":"What's next?"},{"startTime":1338.39,"endTime":1344.12,"body":"And I think when, when we're talking about"},{"startTime":1338.39,"endTime":1344.12,"body":"a single individual playing the role of"},{"startTime":1344.45,"endTime":1350.06,"body":"the product owner and the scrum master,"},{"startTime":1344.45,"endTime":1350.06,"body":"at the same time, we've already possibly"},{"startTime":1350.06,"endTime":1355.58,"body":"evolved beyond a single team, possibly"},{"startTime":1350.06,"endTime":1355.58,"body":"because the organization is looking at"},{"startTime":1356.09,"endTime":1357.98,"body":"cutting costs or saving costs, right?"},{"startTime":1357.98,"endTime":1360.26,"body":"They're saying, well, we don't"},{"startTime":1357.98,"endTime":1360.26,"body":"need two people to do this."},{"startTime":1361.19,"endTime":1366.23,"body":"There comes a time when you look"},{"startTime":1361.19,"endTime":1366.23,"body":"at that and say, one person can"},{"startTime":1366.23,"endTime":1369.8,"body":"possibly do the job, but don't,"},{"startTime":1366.23,"endTime":1369.8,"body":"don't, they won't do it very well."},{"startTime":1370.1,"endTime":1372.38,"body":"First of all, why won't"},{"startTime":1370.1,"endTime":1372.38,"body":"they do it very well?"},{"startTime":1372.38,"endTime":1375.62,"body":"Because they're, and we talked about"},{"startTime":1372.38,"endTime":1375.62,"body":"how they're overburdened, right?"},{"startTime":1376.085,"endTime":1380.435,"body":"How do you relay that messaging"},{"startTime":1376.085,"endTime":1380.435,"body":"up to your management?"},{"startTime":1380.495,"endTime":1380.675,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1380.745,"endTime":1381.785,"body":"Or, or leadership."},{"startTime":1381.785,"endTime":1386.435,"body":"If you have their ear, how do you"},{"startTime":1381.785,"endTime":1386.435,"body":"say to them, listen, I'm one person."},{"startTime":1386.585,"endTime":1389.285,"body":"I can do both of these things,"},{"startTime":1386.585,"endTime":1389.285,"body":"but I can't do a good job at"},{"startTime":1389.285,"endTime":1390.395,"body":"either of those two things."},{"startTime":1390.455,"endTime":1390.635,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1390.635,"endTime":1390.695,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1390.995,"endTime":1392.795,"body":"So you have to find a way."},{"startTime":1393.335,"endTime":1397.655,"body":"Otherwise what's gonna happen is the"},{"startTime":1393.335,"endTime":1397.655,"body":"onus is on you now to keep working,"},{"startTime":1397.985,"endTime":1399.875,"body":"and they'll just crack the way harder."},{"startTime":1399.935,"endTime":1400.955,"body":"You're not working hard enough."},{"startTime":1401.105,"endTime":1404.195,"body":"And that's exactly what's gonna, that's"},{"startTime":1401.105,"endTime":1404.195,"body":"exactly what usually happens, right?"},{"startTime":1404.405,"endTime":1406.805,"body":"Well, because it's like they"},{"startTime":1404.405,"endTime":1406.805,"body":"keep looking at you as, oh,"},{"startTime":1406.805,"endTime":1409.445,"body":"you're failing at this one part."},{"startTime":1409.445,"endTime":1414.575,"body":"And that's exactly what happened to me"},{"startTime":1409.445,"endTime":1414.575,"body":"at, at one of my previous positions."},{"startTime":1414.605,"endTime":1414.695,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1414.935,"endTime":1420.335,"body":"Like I was, to me, I was knocking"},{"startTime":1414.935,"endTime":1420.335,"body":"it out as a scrum master, but then"},{"startTime":1420.785,"endTime":1426.335,"body":"that BSA, which was probably pretty"},{"startTime":1420.785,"endTime":1426.335,"body":"much just a product owner part, I"},{"startTime":1426.335,"endTime":1430.64,"body":"sucked at it because I, I told him"},{"startTime":1426.335,"endTime":1430.64,"body":"straight up, This is not who I am."},{"startTime":1430.85,"endTime":1430.97,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1430.97,"endTime":1434.54,"body":"When I got started, so when I had"},{"startTime":1430.97,"endTime":1434.54,"body":"one manager that hired me to say,"},{"startTime":1434.54,"endTime":1437.75,"body":"okay, come on board and fine, I"},{"startTime":1434.54,"endTime":1437.75,"body":"get this is your skillset, I'm"},{"startTime":1437.755,"endTime":1439.22,"body":"gonna hire for that skillset."},{"startTime":1439.61,"endTime":1443.21,"body":"And I did the whole transformation"},{"startTime":1439.61,"endTime":1443.21,"body":"because they, they were doing like,"},{"startTime":1443.215,"endTime":1445.314,"body":"what, twice a week daily Scrum?"},{"startTime":1445.493,"endTime":1448.493,"body":"So we gotta daily scrum, we gotta"},{"startTime":1445.493,"endTime":1448.493,"body":"have retros because they were not"},{"startTime":1448.493,"endTime":1449.813,"body":"even bothering with the retros."},{"startTime":1450.443,"endTime":1453.233,"body":"So sounds like it was a"},{"startTime":1450.443,"endTime":1453.233,"body":"classic bait and switch."},{"startTime":1453.473,"endTime":1457.463,"body":"So when you came in there and find you,"},{"startTime":1453.473,"endTime":1457.463,"body":"you, you say, okay, this is the job I was"},{"startTime":1457.463,"endTime":1459.473,"body":"hired for and I'm knocking at the park."},{"startTime":1459.473,"endTime":1462.863,"body":"And then you have a new manager"},{"startTime":1459.473,"endTime":1462.863,"body":"that wants you to say, okay, yes."},{"startTime":1463.823,"endTime":1467.303,"body":"Even though the title we"},{"startTime":1463.823,"endTime":1467.303,"body":"hired you as is a bsa, but."},{"startTime":1467.663,"endTime":1469.463,"body":"We, your work you're doing is a scrum."},{"startTime":1469.463,"endTime":1472.253,"body":"I said, yeah, we want you to"},{"startTime":1469.463,"endTime":1472.253,"body":"go back to that BSA type work."},{"startTime":1472.523,"endTime":1472.703,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1473.393,"endTime":1475.193,"body":"And then I'm like, well, yes."},{"startTime":1475.403,"endTime":1476.273,"body":"I can't do that."},{"startTime":1476.273,"endTime":1479.183,"body":"And then there's that back and"},{"startTime":1476.273,"endTime":1479.183,"body":"forth confidence that Okay, yeah."},{"startTime":1479.183,"endTime":1481.853,"body":"That you don't really work"},{"startTime":1479.183,"endTime":1481.853,"body":"for us, so you know what?"},{"startTime":1481.853,"endTime":1483.203,"body":"Uh, we just gonna have to let you go."},{"startTime":1483.208,"endTime":1484.648,"body":", I wanna stick with pretty, with"},{"startTime":1483.208,"endTime":1484.648,"body":"the, it's problem too, though."},{"startTime":1484.808,"endTime":1487.188,"body":"It, it is like, sadly,"},{"startTime":1484.808,"endTime":1487.188,"body":"like that's, that's funny."},{"startTime":1487.188,"endTime":1488.278,"body":"Unfortunately, that's what happened."},{"startTime":1488.538,"endTime":1493.008,"body":"I would always try to lobby to align"},{"startTime":1488.538,"endTime":1493.008,"body":"the job role or the, at least the"},{"startTime":1493.008,"endTime":1496.878,"body":"title of the job with the expectation,"},{"startTime":1493.008,"endTime":1496.878,"body":"because I, when you get too far"},{"startTime":1496.883,"endTime":1499.278,"body":"from the expectation, Of the job."},{"startTime":1499.408,"endTime":1503.308,"body":"I've had the same thing I've had,"},{"startTime":1499.408,"endTime":1503.308,"body":"I've changed, whatever reporting"},{"startTime":1503.308,"endTime":1505.378,"body":"officials or bosses, whatever,"},{"startTime":1503.308,"endTime":1505.378,"body":"whatever you wanna call it."},{"startTime":1505.378,"endTime":1505.588,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1505.828,"endTime":1507.508,"body":"I've, I've changed people on paper, right."},{"startTime":1507.513,"endTime":1509.158,"body":"Where I do the same job theoretically."},{"startTime":1509.158,"endTime":1509.248,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1509.518,"endTime":1511.828,"body":"But now I'm working for a different"},{"startTime":1509.518,"endTime":1511.828,"body":"department or different boss or whatever,"},{"startTime":1512.248,"endTime":1513.955,"body":"and, not expected something different."},{"startTime":1513.955,"endTime":1515.015,"body":"There's different expectations."},{"startTime":1515.02,"endTime":1515.195,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1515.525,"endTime":1517.715,"body":"And that, that could happen,"},{"startTime":1515.525,"endTime":1517.715,"body":"different expectations."},{"startTime":1517.875,"endTime":1520.935,"body":"I feel like where, where OM started"},{"startTime":1517.875,"endTime":1520.935,"body":"going into this category was he was"},{"startTime":1520.935,"endTime":1524.885,"body":"talking about, well, to a company"},{"startTime":1520.935,"endTime":1524.885,"body":"that doesn't understand the value of"},{"startTime":1524.885,"endTime":1527.375,"body":"the role on paper in terms of money."},{"startTime":1527.625,"endTime":1530.17,"body":"They don't have a way to put"},{"startTime":1527.625,"endTime":1530.17,"body":"value to this type of role."},{"startTime":1530.47,"endTime":1530.56,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1530.84,"endTime":1534.29,"body":"Capital One, for example, they said,"},{"startTime":1530.84,"endTime":1534.29,"body":"well, well the, the product owners on the"},{"startTime":1534.29,"endTime":1537.44,"body":"team, the product managers will, will,"},{"startTime":1534.29,"endTime":1537.44,"body":"I, I don't know if the product owners"},{"startTime":1537.44,"endTime":1540.73,"body":"or product managers, they said  the"},{"startTime":1537.44,"endTime":1540.73,"body":"product owners will, will shoulder that"},{"startTime":1540.735,"endTime":1545.99,"body":"responsibility and that's fine, for a"},{"startTime":1540.735,"endTime":1545.99,"body":"short period of time, yes, show me, show"},{"startTime":1545.99,"endTime":1552.01,"body":"me on paper what the impact of having"},{"startTime":1545.99,"endTime":1552.01,"body":"that one person do this dual role will be."},{"startTime":1552.13,"endTime":1553.63,"body":"show me what the impact will be."},{"startTime":1554.33,"endTime":1558.56,"body":"The business case that I would try"},{"startTime":1554.33,"endTime":1558.56,"body":"to represent if I was in the role of"},{"startTime":1558.56,"endTime":1561.62,"body":"doing both of these responsibilities,"},{"startTime":1558.56,"endTime":1561.62,"body":"first of all, I'd never be in"},{"startTime":1561.62,"endTime":1563.18,"body":"that role cuz I would just leave."},{"startTime":1563.21,"endTime":1563.3,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1563.54,"endTime":1567.8,"body":"But if, if I was in that role, the,"},{"startTime":1563.54,"endTime":1567.8,"body":"the business case that I would try to"},{"startTime":1567.8,"endTime":1572.24,"body":"represent would be something along the"},{"startTime":1567.8,"endTime":1572.24,"body":"lines of showing what we're missing"},{"startTime":1572.24,"endTime":1578.45,"body":"out with regard to improved focus of"},{"startTime":1572.24,"endTime":1578.45,"body":"the person or persons highlighting"},{"startTime":1578.45,"endTime":1582.05,"body":"what I can't get to while I'm doing"},{"startTime":1578.45,"endTime":1582.05,"body":"all this team facilitation stuff."},{"startTime":1582.23,"endTime":1584.72,"body":"As a product manager, I would"},{"startTime":1582.23,"endTime":1584.72,"body":"approach it on the product side."},{"startTime":1585.11,"endTime":1588.74,"body":"I would say, because I'm doing all this"},{"startTime":1585.11,"endTime":1588.74,"body":"team facilitation stuff, here are the"},{"startTime":1588.74,"endTime":1590.42,"body":"things that I can't put my time into."},{"startTime":1590.93,"endTime":1593.27,"body":"I would like to be, do be"},{"startTime":1590.93,"endTime":1593.27,"body":"doing user journey maps."},{"startTime":1593.46,"endTime":1595.23,"body":"I would like to be working with sales."},{"startTime":1595.23,"endTime":1600.21,"body":"I would like to be going to every sales"},{"startTime":1595.23,"endTime":1600.21,"body":"demo that the sales team is, putting on"},{"startTime":1600.24,"endTime":1603.21,"body":"to, to, to see how they demo the product."},{"startTime":1603.21,"endTime":1605.31,"body":"I would like to be working with marketing."},{"startTime":1605.67,"endTime":1609.3,"body":"Every time when they put together a"},{"startTime":1605.67,"endTime":1609.3,"body":"new campaign and understanding how"},{"startTime":1609.3,"endTime":1612.96,"body":"their metrics are rolling out and"},{"startTime":1609.3,"endTime":1612.96,"body":"and how what I'm doing in the product"},{"startTime":1613.44,"endTime":1614.67,"body":"can impact what they're tracking."},{"startTime":1614.97,"endTime":1618.51,"body":"I would like to talk about the"},{"startTime":1614.97,"endTime":1618.51,"body":"whole team facilitation side cuz"},{"startTime":1618.69,"endTime":1622.23,"body":"usually businesses don't understand"},{"startTime":1618.69,"endTime":1622.23,"body":"what goes into team facilitation."},{"startTime":1622.35,"endTime":1623.07,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":1623.07,"endTime":1623.69,"body":"Team facilitation?"},{"startTime":1623.69,"endTime":1626.97,"body":"Well, you can't quantify it that that's"},{"startTime":1623.69,"endTime":1626.97,"body":"the issue with facilitation, right?"},{"startTime":1627.15,"endTime":1627.36,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1627.36,"endTime":1628.44,"body":"You can't quantify it."},{"startTime":1628.44,"endTime":1631.26,"body":"And so people just basically"},{"startTime":1628.44,"endTime":1631.26,"body":"pay lip service to it."},{"startTime":1631.29,"endTime":1636.15,"body":"Like, well, you, you're a developer, you"},{"startTime":1631.29,"endTime":1636.15,"body":"speak well, you can facilitate anything."},{"startTime":1636.18,"endTime":1636.42,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1636.42,"endTime":1636.421,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1636.6,"endTime":1639.84,"body":"You know, go to the G seven"},{"startTime":1636.6,"endTime":1639.84,"body":"summit and go facilitate."},{"startTime":1639.95,"endTime":1642.2,"body":"no, people are not able to do that."},{"startTime":1642.2,"endTime":1642.35,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1642.35,"endTime":1643.34,"body":"Very effectively."},{"startTime":1643.345,"endTime":1643.94,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1643.94,"endTime":1649.67,"body":"So, in this example that we are"},{"startTime":1643.94,"endTime":1649.67,"body":"now talking about, management,"},{"startTime":1650.03,"endTime":1651.35,"body":"possibly leadership mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1651.59,"endTime":1654.77,"body":"Sought to save money, obviously Right."},{"startTime":1654.77,"endTime":1656.78,"body":"By collapsing these roles."},{"startTime":1656.88,"endTime":1659.64,"body":"Unfortunately those"},{"startTime":1656.88,"endTime":1659.64,"body":"people that were impacted."},{"startTime":1661.225,"endTime":1664.975,"body":"I'm guessing that they did"},{"startTime":1661.225,"endTime":1664.975,"body":"not speak up and say, here's"},{"startTime":1664.975,"endTime":1666.925,"body":"the opportunity cost, right?"},{"startTime":1666.925,"endTime":1667.195,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1667.2,"endTime":1668.095,"body":"You can save money."},{"startTime":1668.095,"endTime":1670.945,"body":"So that's the, let's just draw"},{"startTime":1668.095,"endTime":1670.945,"body":"two columns and go, here's the,"},{"startTime":1671.005,"endTime":1674.935,"body":"here's the money savings and"},{"startTime":1671.005,"endTime":1674.935,"body":"here's the loss of productivity."},{"startTime":1674.935,"endTime":1676.105,"body":"Loss of effectiveness."},{"startTime":1676.135,"endTime":1679.105,"body":"Now that, that second column"},{"startTime":1676.135,"endTime":1679.105,"body":"is harder to quantify."},{"startTime":1679.255,"endTime":1679.375,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1679.615,"endTime":1683.335,"body":"And what you need to do is work with your"},{"startTime":1679.615,"endTime":1683.335,"body":"teams and say, what if there was no po?"},{"startTime":1683.665,"endTime":1686.605,"body":"Right or what if there"},{"startTime":1683.665,"endTime":1686.605,"body":"was no fill in the blank."},{"startTime":1686.605,"endTime":1686.815,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1686.845,"endTime":1687.145,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1687.625,"endTime":1690.235,"body":"A scrum master for a"},{"startTime":1687.625,"endTime":1690.235,"body":"sprint, what does that mean?"},{"startTime":1690.665,"endTime":1695.16,"body":"So you extrapolate that out and you say, o"},{"startTime":1690.665,"endTime":1695.16,"body":"over a month, this is the amount of money."},{"startTime":1696.705,"endTime":1699.885,"body":"In opportunity cost that"},{"startTime":1696.705,"endTime":1699.885,"body":"we're losing, right?"},{"startTime":1700.005,"endTime":1702.465,"body":"How So you have two columns that one"},{"startTime":1700.005,"endTime":1702.465,"body":"says, well, how much you're saving,"},{"startTime":1702.465,"endTime":1706.005,"body":"one says how much you're losing,"},{"startTime":1702.465,"endTime":1706.005,"body":"and you do that for every element."},{"startTime":1706.215,"endTime":1709.395,"body":"And then at the bottom you have"},{"startTime":1706.215,"endTime":1709.395,"body":"a total and it speaks for itself."},{"startTime":1709.448,"endTime":1713.298,"body":"So I think we're at the, at that point"},{"startTime":1709.448,"endTime":1713.298,"body":"in the podcast to say, if you're in this"},{"startTime":1713.298,"endTime":1718.758,"body":"situation where, let's say you have been"},{"startTime":1713.298,"endTime":1718.758,"body":"tapped to play multiple roles, right?"},{"startTime":1718.788,"endTime":1722.118,"body":"So you're a scrum master and a PO or"},{"startTime":1718.788,"endTime":1722.118,"body":"you're development team member and a scrum"},{"startTime":1722.148,"endTime":1725.688,"body":"master or development team member and a"},{"startTime":1722.148,"endTime":1725.688,"body":"PO whatever combination, they're ofof."},{"startTime":1726.288,"endTime":1732.508,"body":"How do you actually even begin to frame"},{"startTime":1726.288,"endTime":1732.508,"body":"the challenges that you have, right?"},{"startTime":1732.513,"endTime":1732.678,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1732.678,"endTime":1735.198,"body":"You can say, oh look, I'm overburdened."},{"startTime":1736.048,"endTime":1736.948,"body":"That's enough."},{"startTime":1737.148,"endTime":1737.548,"body":"That's not enough."},{"startTime":1737.548,"endTime":1738.228,"body":"It's not, it's not enough."},{"startTime":1738.258,"endTime":1739.398,"body":"It's absolutely not enough."},{"startTime":1739.428,"endTime":1740.958,"body":"Here's how do you do,"},{"startTime":1739.428,"endTime":1740.958,"body":"that's the problem, right?"},{"startTime":1740.958,"endTime":1741.678,"body":"Here's the problem."},{"startTime":1741.678,"endTime":1741.888,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1741.888,"endTime":1746.118,"body":"The problem is like, like I've"},{"startTime":1741.888,"endTime":1746.118,"body":"said, I've played this role, so I"},{"startTime":1746.118,"endTime":1748.758,"body":"know exactly where the problem is."},{"startTime":1749.448,"endTime":1752.058,"body":"When they interview you, they, they, yes."},{"startTime":1752.988,"endTime":1756.888,"body":"Sometimes they disclose that, that,"},{"startTime":1752.988,"endTime":1756.888,"body":"okay, they want you to play this role so."},{"startTime":1757.473,"endTime":1761.493,"body":"Obviously if they feel you don't have"},{"startTime":1757.473,"endTime":1761.493,"body":"it, you're just not gonna get hired."},{"startTime":1761.813,"endTime":1763.073,"body":"but that's the easy path out."},{"startTime":1763.073,"endTime":1766.213,"body":"This like the, the, the, the more"},{"startTime":1763.073,"endTime":1766.213,"body":"difficult path is, you find yourself"},{"startTime":1766.213,"endTime":1770.743,"body":"in the role developer playing multiple"},{"startTime":1766.213,"endTime":1770.743,"body":"roles or a scrum master and a PO"},{"startTime":1770.743,"endTime":1771.643,"body":"together, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1771.643,"endTime":1772.273,"body":"That kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1772.333,"endTime":1775.633,"body":"You find yourself in the role and"},{"startTime":1772.333,"endTime":1775.633,"body":"like, now, how are you gonna lobby"},{"startTime":1775.633,"endTime":1779.263,"body":"the organization to say, look like"},{"startTime":1775.633,"endTime":1779.263,"body":"you guys gotta get me outta this."},{"startTime":1779.503,"endTime":1781.663,"body":"You, you gotta separate"},{"startTime":1779.503,"endTime":1781.663,"body":"the scrum master side."},{"startTime":1781.813,"endTime":1784.723,"body":"Or, well, I guess it, it could"},{"startTime":1781.813,"endTime":1784.723,"body":"be the developer saying, you guys"},{"startTime":1784.723,"endTime":1787.903,"body":"gotta separate this scrum master"},{"startTime":1784.723,"endTime":1787.903,"body":"stuff from the team members."},{"startTime":1787.933,"endTime":1789.253,"body":"It needs its own person."},{"startTime":1789.403,"endTime":1792.583,"body":"We're doing so much coordination,"},{"startTime":1789.403,"endTime":1792.583,"body":"so much, breaking down the"},{"startTime":1792.583,"endTime":1793.543,"body":"silos and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1793.543,"endTime":1796.243,"body":"You need a person to do this full time."},{"startTime":1796.483,"endTime":1797.233,"body":"Same thing with product."},{"startTime":1797.233,"endTime":1800.803,"body":"I, I, I think in small organizations"},{"startTime":1797.233,"endTime":1800.803,"body":"where the developers are doing product."},{"startTime":1801.418,"endTime":1804.538,"body":"The developers could say like,"},{"startTime":1801.418,"endTime":1804.538,"body":"listen, like you need people"},{"startTime":1804.538,"endTime":1805.798,"body":"to coordinate with customers."},{"startTime":1806.038,"endTime":1808.938,"body":"You need people to, to figure out pricing."},{"startTime":1808.938,"endTime":1810.558,"body":"Figure out your roadmap full-time."},{"startTime":1810.558,"endTime":1812.028,"body":"Figure out your marketing"},{"startTime":1810.558,"endTime":1812.028,"body":"strategy full-time."},{"startTime":1812.033,"endTime":1813.348,"body":"Like, I can't, I'm a developer."},{"startTime":1813.348,"endTime":1814.788,"body":"I can't do this anymore."},{"startTime":1814.968,"endTime":1818.688,"body":"I think part of that, it goes back"},{"startTime":1814.968,"endTime":1818.688,"body":"to what I was saying is, it doesn't"},{"startTime":1818.688,"endTime":1821.238,"body":"matter what role you play, whether"},{"startTime":1818.688,"endTime":1821.238,"body":"you're a development team member,"},{"startTime":1821.238,"endTime":1826.278,"body":"product owner, scru master, if you can"},{"startTime":1821.238,"endTime":1826.278,"body":"come up with a way to quantify, cuz"},{"startTime":1826.283,"endTime":1830.748,"body":"the only way to have this conversation"},{"startTime":1826.283,"endTime":1830.748,"body":"with these management folks is in"},{"startTime":1830.748,"endTime":1832.878,"body":"terms of what they understand, right."},{"startTime":1832.883,"endTime":1833.778,"body":"Which is dollars."},{"startTime":1834.018,"endTime":1834.288,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1834.293,"endTime":1838.008,"body":"The, the reason why you have, why they're"},{"startTime":1834.293,"endTime":1838.008,"body":"consolidating these roles is because"},{"startTime":1838.008,"endTime":1841.698,"body":"they're either not wanting to spend the"},{"startTime":1838.008,"endTime":1841.698,"body":"money or are wanting to save the money."},{"startTime":1841.698,"endTime":1841.998,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1842.003,"endTime":1842.098,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1842.103,"endTime":1842.358,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1842.388,"endTime":1849.093,"body":"So create a typically it's a spreadsheet"},{"startTime":1842.388,"endTime":1849.093,"body":"and put two columns on the spreadsheet."},{"startTime":1849.183,"endTime":1855.753,"body":"One is, this is the first column where,"},{"startTime":1849.183,"endTime":1855.753,"body":"put enumerate everything you do right."},{"startTime":1856.023,"endTime":1858.903,"body":"And try and say, well, it's a two week,"},{"startTime":1856.023,"endTime":1858.903,"body":"let's say you're doing two week sprints,"},{"startTime":1858.983,"endTime":1863.033,"body":"and say how much time you're spending"},{"startTime":1858.983,"endTime":1863.033,"body":"in hours, you're loading costs, right."},{"startTime":1863.273,"endTime":1864.533,"body":"Loaded costs per hour."},{"startTime":1865.493,"endTime":1866.513,"body":"If you don't know, it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1866.513,"endTime":1867.023,"body":"Guess at it."},{"startTime":1867.443,"endTime":1871.163,"body":"And, and create that and say,"},{"startTime":1867.443,"endTime":1871.163,"body":"I'm spending four hours, every"},{"startTime":1871.163,"endTime":1872.213,"body":"other day, or whatever it is."},{"startTime":1872.213,"endTime":1872.633,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1872.693,"endTime":1875.603,"body":"So every activity is"},{"startTime":1872.693,"endTime":1875.603,"body":"enumerated in that way."},{"startTime":1876.323,"endTime":1879.113,"body":"Then what you do is you"},{"startTime":1876.323,"endTime":1879.113,"body":"create a second column."},{"startTime":1879.133,"endTime":1882.973,"body":"And then you, and underneath all of those"},{"startTime":1879.133,"endTime":1882.973,"body":"activities, cuz they pertain to a role."},{"startTime":1882.973,"endTime":1885.673,"body":"Let's say you're a scrum master, they"},{"startTime":1882.973,"endTime":1885.673,"body":"pertain to a scrum master role and"},{"startTime":1885.673,"endTime":1889.573,"body":"the ask is they're wanting you to do"},{"startTime":1885.673,"endTime":1889.573,"body":"a product role in addition to being a"},{"startTime":1889.578,"endTime":1891.283,"body":"scrum master, let's say for example."},{"startTime":1891.643,"endTime":1897.373,"body":"So underneath of all of those, those"},{"startTime":1891.643,"endTime":1897.373,"body":"roles that, enumerate, scrum master"},{"startTime":1897.373,"endTime":1902.248,"body":"responsibilities, You now put down"},{"startTime":1897.373,"endTime":1902.248,"body":"all of those rows, additional rows"},{"startTime":1902.308,"endTime":1904.258,"body":"for product owner responsibilities."},{"startTime":1904.618,"endTime":1904.738,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1904.983,"endTime":1904.998,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1905.068,"endTime":1908.578,"body":"And then you take a guess at, well,"},{"startTime":1905.068,"endTime":1908.578,"body":"how much time you think it's going"},{"startTime":1908.578,"endTime":1911.218,"body":"to take you every whatever day."},{"startTime":1911.278,"endTime":1911.548,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1911.608,"endTime":1912.808,"body":"Would you do it for a sprint?"},{"startTime":1912.838,"endTime":1915.448,"body":"Because a sprint loaded"},{"startTime":1912.838,"endTime":1915.448,"body":"cost is easier to calculate."},{"startTime":1915.568,"endTime":1916.498,"body":"So you do it that way."},{"startTime":1916.648,"endTime":1920.788,"body":"And then you say for, for all of"},{"startTime":1916.648,"endTime":1920.788,"body":"these, an additional ask is this,"},{"startTime":1920.908,"endTime":1923.128,"body":"why am I asking this to"},{"startTime":1920.908,"endTime":1923.128,"body":"be a separate column?"},{"startTime":1923.818,"endTime":1925.768,"body":"You may ask or you may not."},{"startTime":1925.768,"endTime":1928.918,"body":"But I asked, so the reason why is this?"},{"startTime":1928.948,"endTime":1932.758,"body":"So you can, you can actually show"},{"startTime":1928.948,"endTime":1932.758,"body":"them front and back if you like."},{"startTime":1932.758,"endTime":1932.968,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1932.973,"endTime":1937.198,"body":"So you can say, well, as a scrum"},{"startTime":1932.973,"endTime":1937.198,"body":"master, I am doing all these things."},{"startTime":1937.318,"endTime":1937.468,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1937.768,"endTime":1944.878,"body":"And here is the loaded cost to the"},{"startTime":1937.768,"endTime":1944.878,"body":"organization for me as a scrum master."},{"startTime":1945.028,"endTime":1948.328,"body":"And then likewise, having a second"},{"startTime":1945.028,"endTime":1948.328,"body":"column allows you to do this and"},{"startTime":1948.328,"endTime":1951.958,"body":"say ditto for a product owner role."},{"startTime":1952.573,"endTime":1957.943,"body":"So a loaded cost for a partner of,"},{"startTime":1952.573,"endTime":1957.943,"body":"for a sprint is this, you, you can"},{"startTime":1957.943,"endTime":1959.353,"body":"say a day, it doesn't matter, right?"},{"startTime":1959.413,"endTime":1961.783,"body":"Assuming all days are equal, I"},{"startTime":1959.413,"endTime":1961.783,"body":"think, I think all of that better."},{"startTime":1961.843,"endTime":1965.713,"body":"So you can say that and then you"},{"startTime":1961.843,"endTime":1965.713,"body":"can now go back armed with real"},{"startTime":1965.713,"endTime":1970.123,"body":"information and have a conversation"},{"startTime":1965.713,"endTime":1970.123,"body":"with your execs and say, a single"},{"startTime":1970.123,"endTime":1971.923,"body":"person can do all of these things."},{"startTime":1971.923,"endTime":1973.693,"body":"But you look at all those hours, right?"},{"startTime":1974.173,"endTime":1977.023,"body":"They add up to a lot more"},{"startTime":1974.173,"endTime":1977.023,"body":"than eight hours a day."},{"startTime":1977.023,"endTime":1980.293,"body":"But again, how, how is this any"},{"startTime":1977.023,"endTime":1980.293,"body":"different than, than you going to"},{"startTime":1980.293,"endTime":1982.993,"body":"the product owner and be like, Hey,"},{"startTime":1980.293,"endTime":1982.993,"body":"I want you to build a website that"},{"startTime":1982.993,"endTime":1986.623,"body":"does function A and I want you to"},{"startTime":1982.993,"endTime":1986.623,"body":"build a website that does function B."},{"startTime":1986.953,"endTime":1988.993,"body":"And then the product owner's like, great."},{"startTime":1988.993,"endTime":1990.163,"body":"Which one do you want me to do first?"},{"startTime":1990.163,"endTime":1990.733,"body":"No, both."},{"startTime":1991.003,"endTime":1991.243,"body":"Both."},{"startTime":1991.243,"endTime":1992.053,"body":"I want you to do both of them."},{"startTime":1992.053,"endTime":1992.323,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1992.523,"endTime":1993.243,"body":"I'm gonna add to this."},{"startTime":1993.828,"endTime":1994.128,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1994.128,"endTime":1995.118,"body":"I had two columns."},{"startTime":1995.118,"endTime":1999.108,"body":"If those of you that are still"},{"startTime":1995.118,"endTime":1999.108,"body":"with us, recall and a third call,"},{"startTime":1999.708,"endTime":2002.078,"body":"call it opportunity cost, okay."},{"startTime":2002.318,"endTime":2006.098,"body":"And then put in all of those things"},{"startTime":2002.318,"endTime":2006.098,"body":"and say why you're not able to do all"},{"startTime":2006.098,"endTime":2011.828,"body":"of those things that Brian's hotline,"},{"startTime":2006.098,"endTime":2011.828,"body":"all, everything we can do, we are human."},{"startTime":2011.833,"endTime":2013.328,"body":"We can do all of these things."},{"startTime":2013.328,"endTime":2014.768,"body":"You know, Steve Austin, right?"},{"startTime":2014.768,"endTime":2015.518,"body":"We can rebuild him."},{"startTime":2016.448,"endTime":2019.568,"body":"Those of you that are sixties"},{"startTime":2016.448,"endTime":2019.568,"body":"years old can relate to that."},{"startTime":2019.928,"endTime":2023.048,"body":"Anyway, the point is, the point"},{"startTime":2019.928,"endTime":2023.048,"body":"is, if you have those three"},{"startTime":2023.048,"endTime":2024.308,"body":"columns, you have numbers."},{"startTime":2024.458,"endTime":2027.638,"body":"When you have numbers, you have"},{"startTime":2024.458,"endTime":2027.638,"body":"some basis to speak about these."},{"startTime":2027.878,"endTime":2031.718,"body":"And then you can go back and say,"},{"startTime":2027.878,"endTime":2031.718,"body":"I just might wanna remind you, I"},{"startTime":2031.718,"endTime":2034.088,"body":"get paid for a 40 hour week, right?"},{"startTime":2034.118,"endTime":2034.208,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2034.268,"endTime":2036.698,"body":"And here, we're looking"},{"startTime":2034.268,"endTime":2036.698,"body":"at 68 hours a week."},{"startTime":2036.758,"endTime":2039.398,"body":"Listen, like Yeah, I know, I know, I know."},{"startTime":2039.398,"endTime":2041.348,"body":"You get paid for a 40"},{"startTime":2039.398,"endTime":2041.348,"body":"hour week on the podcast."},{"startTime":2041.353,"endTime":2041.438,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":2041.468,"endTime":2044.318,"body":"But also you can only bill 40 hours."},{"startTime":2045.008,"endTime":2046.778,"body":"Regardless of how much time you turn in."},{"startTime":2047.208,"endTime":2050.298,"body":"If you're going through an approach"},{"startTime":2047.208,"endTime":2050.298,"body":"to try to convince your company, this"},{"startTime":2050.298,"endTime":2051.588,"body":"is the better way of doing things."},{"startTime":2052.048,"endTime":2055.013,"body":"Let me speak the language that you"},{"startTime":2052.048,"endTime":2055.013,"body":"understand, which is financials."},{"startTime":2055.193,"endTime":2060.683,"body":"If you're unwilling to change your"},{"startTime":2055.193,"endTime":2060.683,"body":"language to financials to make a"},{"startTime":2060.683,"endTime":2064.673,"body":"breakthrough with the company, and"},{"startTime":2060.683,"endTime":2064.673,"body":"maybe you can't do this at all when"},{"startTime":2064.673,"endTime":2067.223,"body":"you're outside the company, like if"},{"startTime":2064.673,"endTime":2067.223,"body":"you're trying to get interviewed or like"},{"startTime":2067.253,"endTime":2068.913,"body":"interviewed to go into a company mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2069.323,"endTime":2073.703,"body":"It may not be possible to do this unless"},{"startTime":2069.323,"endTime":2073.703,"body":"you're talking directly to founders"},{"startTime":2073.708,"endTime":2075.383,"body":"of the company or the ceo, right."},{"startTime":2075.503,"endTime":2077.573,"body":"Then maybe yes, I will concede."},{"startTime":2077.603,"endTime":2079.313,"body":"Maybe it's not possible at all."},{"startTime":2079.613,"endTime":2082.153,"body":"But if you're inside, I would"},{"startTime":2079.613,"endTime":2082.153,"body":"start with a phased approach"},{"startTime":2082.423,"endTime":2085.603,"body":"to say that, why don't we try."},{"startTime":2085.978,"endTime":2090.718,"body":"This new program, like usually"},{"startTime":2085.978,"endTime":2090.718,"body":"companies can try to get dollars"},{"startTime":2090.718,"endTime":2094.498,"body":"for a specific program or purpose"},{"startTime":2090.718,"endTime":2094.498,"body":"or something, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2094.503,"endTime":2097.438,"body":"They, they can do financial tricks"},{"startTime":2094.503,"endTime":2097.438,"body":"to say, Hey, we're gonna fund this"},{"startTime":2097.438,"endTime":2100.888,"body":"initiative, and then if it doesn't"},{"startTime":2097.438,"endTime":2100.888,"body":"work, then it doesn't make profit."},{"startTime":2100.888,"endTime":2103.648,"body":"And they can write, do a tax"},{"startTime":2100.888,"endTime":2103.648,"body":"write off and stuff like that."},{"startTime":2103.703,"endTime":2108.233,"body":"Why don't, why don't we try a pilot"},{"startTime":2103.703,"endTime":2108.233,"body":"program where we bring on a scrum master"},{"startTime":2108.923,"endTime":2113.873,"body":"like role slash job for, contract for"},{"startTime":2108.923,"endTime":2113.873,"body":"six months, three months, whatever"},{"startTime":2113.873,"endTime":2118.773,"body":"it is and we need some metrics to, to"},{"startTime":2113.873,"endTime":2118.773,"body":"measure before and after the program."},{"startTime":2119.193,"endTime":2122.523,"body":"So before the program, we wanna,"},{"startTime":2119.193,"endTime":2122.523,"body":"we wanna send out a survey,"},{"startTime":2122.553,"endTime":2123.753,"body":"maybe an internal survey."},{"startTime":2123.993,"endTime":2125.673,"body":"How happy are you with the backlog?"},{"startTime":2125.673,"endTime":2129.123,"body":"How happy are you with your interactions"},{"startTime":2125.673,"endTime":2129.123,"body":"with this department or that"},{"startTime":2129.123,"endTime":2130.623,"body":"department or this team or that team."},{"startTime":2130.833,"endTime":2133.833,"body":"How happy are you with the"},{"startTime":2130.833,"endTime":2133.833,"body":"delivery speed of whatever?"},{"startTime":2133.983,"endTime":2136.113,"body":"How happy are you with"},{"startTime":2133.983,"endTime":2136.113,"body":"quality of whatever?"},{"startTime":2136.473,"endTime":2138.753,"body":"and then maybe we run that"},{"startTime":2136.473,"endTime":2138.753,"body":"survey again after three months,"},{"startTime":2138.753,"endTime":2139.833,"body":"after we have this person."},{"startTime":2140.148,"endTime":2140.808,"body":"Who's Jo?"},{"startTime":2141.138,"endTime":2143.358,"body":"Three months is probably"},{"startTime":2141.138,"endTime":2143.358,"body":"a shorten amount of time."},{"startTime":2143.598,"endTime":2144.558,"body":"Maybe six months."},{"startTime":2144.558,"endTime":2146.568,"body":"I don't you arguable, right?"},{"startTime":2146.868,"endTime":2147.048,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2147.098,"endTime":2150.938,"body":"maybe if you don't wanna do that, if"},{"startTime":2147.098,"endTime":2150.938,"body":"you don't wanna commit to a, to hiring"},{"startTime":2150.998,"endTime":2154.778,"body":"people or spending money, maybe you"},{"startTime":2150.998,"endTime":2154.778,"body":"just spend some money on coaching."},{"startTime":2154.958,"endTime":2159.188,"body":"Say, Hey, maybe we can get somebody"},{"startTime":2154.958,"endTime":2159.188,"body":"outside to come in and coach our teams."},{"startTime":2159.858,"endTime":2163.128,"body":"maybe this person who's playing"},{"startTime":2159.858,"endTime":2163.128,"body":"the dual role of product manager"},{"startTime":2163.128,"endTime":2164.988,"body":"and also Scrum master on the team."},{"startTime":2165.168,"endTime":2169.068,"body":"Maybe we get somebody and, spend"},{"startTime":2165.168,"endTime":2169.068,"body":"a couple hours a week, an hour a"},{"startTime":2169.068,"endTime":2170.538,"body":"week, two hours a week, whatever."},{"startTime":2170.718,"endTime":2173.208,"body":"Maybe you'll maybe just an"},{"startTime":2170.718,"endTime":2173.208,"body":"hour one-on-one per week."},{"startTime":2173.568,"endTime":2175.248,"body":"Just talk about your problems."},{"startTime":2175.518,"endTime":2178.038,"body":"Hey, I'm, I'm having problems."},{"startTime":2178.938,"endTime":2181.098,"body":"Come tell So about,"},{"startTime":2178.938,"endTime":2181.098,"body":"have a psychologist now."},{"startTime":2181.248,"endTime":2181.878,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2182.118,"endTime":2183.528,"body":"Have a seat on the couch."},{"startTime":2183.618,"endTime":2183.918,"body":"Therapist."},{"startTime":2183.918,"endTime":2184.728,"body":"Have a seat on the couch."},{"startTime":2184.888,"endTime":2186.588,"body":"Ayo tell me about your problems."},{"startTime":2186.588,"endTime":2187.848,"body":"Have psych, you're an Agile therapist."},{"startTime":2188.028,"endTime":2189.048,"body":"let, let me wrap up."},{"startTime":2189.078,"endTime":2194.502,"body":"If, if your favorite football team has"},{"startTime":2189.078,"endTime":2194.502,"body":"a quarterback, And a linebacker and both"},{"startTime":2194.502,"endTime":2196.722,"body":"of those guys are playing the same role."},{"startTime":2197.412,"endTime":2201.072,"body":"You, I'm just saying your team"},{"startTime":2197.412,"endTime":2201.072,"body":"is probably not gonna win the"},{"startTime":2201.072,"endTime":2202.482,"body":"Super Bowl, but when they don't."},{"startTime":2203.067,"endTime":2204.807,"body":"Introspect and figure out why."},{"startTime":2204.807,"endTime":2208.617,"body":"I think that's being the focus"},{"startTime":2204.807,"endTime":2208.617,"body":"of this whole podcast is one"},{"startTime":2208.617,"endTime":2210.117,"body":"person cannot be everything."},{"startTime":2210.117,"endTime":2213.627,"body":"If you like this podcast,"},{"startTime":2210.117,"endTime":2213.627,"body":"go to arguing agile.com."},{"startTime":2213.872,"endTime":2216.782,"body":"There's a form on the website,"},{"startTime":2213.872,"endTime":2216.782,"body":"and also you can send us your"},{"startTime":2216.787,"endTime":2218.767,"body":"voice messages and angry tweets."},{"startTime":2219.007,"endTime":2223.267,"body":"And also, if you'd like to hear,"},{"startTime":2219.007,"endTime":2223.267,"body":"more from us, you can hit us"},{"startTime":2223.272,"endTime":2225.577,"body":"up on all of our social medias."}]}