{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.01,"endTime":4.15,"body":"On the podcast today, we're going to talk"},{"startTime":0.01,"endTime":4.15,"body":"about the impact of being on multiple"},{"startTime":4.21,"endTime":8.7,"body":"teams So I'm going to say multiple"},{"startTime":4.21,"endTime":8.7,"body":"scrum teams or multiple kanban team."},{"startTime":8.72,"endTime":10.71,"body":"It doesn't really matter what"},{"startTime":8.72,"endTime":10.71,"body":"methodology you're using here."},{"startTime":10.88,"endTime":11.81,"body":"You're on multiple teams!"},{"startTime":11.81,"endTime":13.92,"body":"You're on multiple teams"},{"startTime":11.81,"endTime":13.92,"body":"as a product person."},{"startTime":14.009,"endTime":14.69,"body":"As a product person."},{"startTime":14.7,"endTime":16.55,"body":"Well, it could be a scrum master."},{"startTime":16.589,"endTime":17.099,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":17.98,"endTime":19.64,"body":"Typically, I've seen that a lot too."},{"startTime":20.31,"endTime":24.439,"body":"The immediate impact that I think of,"},{"startTime":20.31,"endTime":24.439,"body":"of being on multiple teams, is missed"},{"startTime":24.439,"endTime":30.189,"body":"deadlines or poor quality features"},{"startTime":24.439,"endTime":30.189,"body":"or generally frustrated stakeholders"},{"startTime":30.679,"endTime":34.489,"body":"and maybe you can't exactly put"},{"startTime":30.679,"endTime":34.489,"body":"your finger on what's wrong, right?"},{"startTime":34.529,"endTime":36.469,"body":"Or maybe you have somebody"},{"startTime":34.529,"endTime":36.469,"body":"that you know is really good."},{"startTime":36.869,"endTime":40.629,"body":"And they seem to be doing a crummy job"},{"startTime":36.869,"endTime":40.629,"body":"and you you can't really figure out why."},{"startTime":41.169,"endTime":43.789,"body":"Yeah, I'll just add that"},{"startTime":41.169,"endTime":43.789,"body":"sometimes, one of the symptoms"},{"startTime":43.789,"endTime":45.639,"body":"is the, the teams aren't happy."},{"startTime":46.309,"endTime":46.779,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":46.789,"endTime":47.109,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":47.119,"endTime":47.319,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":47.459,"endTime":51.169,"body":"Because they got used to working with you"},{"startTime":47.459,"endTime":51.169,"body":"as a Scrum Master partner or whatever."},{"startTime":51.489,"endTime":55.389,"body":"And then they're seeing less of you"},{"startTime":51.489,"endTime":55.389,"body":"perhaps or, just not working anymore."},{"startTime":55.399,"endTime":55.999,"body":"And they know that."},{"startTime":55.999,"endTime":56.689,"body":"They usually know."},{"startTime":56.989,"endTime":60.949,"body":"So yeah, this is a very interesting"},{"startTime":56.989,"endTime":60.949,"body":"topic because, lately I'm coming"},{"startTime":60.949,"endTime":63.769,"body":"across situations where people"},{"startTime":60.949,"endTime":63.769,"body":"say, well, we don't need all these,"},{"startTime":64.739,"endTime":69.719,"body":"Scrum Masters, we could just have"},{"startTime":64.739,"endTime":69.719,"body":"one person do Scrum Mastery on"},{"startTime":69.749,"endTime":71.879,"body":"three teams, five teams, whatever."},{"startTime":72.029,"endTime":75.109,"body":"So we're talking about the impact"},{"startTime":72.029,"endTime":75.109,"body":"of being on multiple teams."},{"startTime":75.159,"endTime":79.59,"body":"I'm assuming that the impact is"},{"startTime":75.159,"endTime":79.59,"body":"lessened, if you have a team that"},{"startTime":79.6,"endTime":83.34,"body":"mostly is self sustaining, if"},{"startTime":79.6,"endTime":83.34,"body":"you have, if you have a team, I'm"},{"startTime":83.34,"endTime":84.64,"body":"trying to not use the word mature."},{"startTime":84.64,"endTime":85.23,"body":"I don't know why."},{"startTime":85.42,"endTime":88.37,"body":"If you have a team that's at"},{"startTime":85.42,"endTime":88.37,"body":"an advanced level, there we go."},{"startTime":88.37,"endTime":89.51,"body":"That's a better word than mature."},{"startTime":89.72,"endTime":92.1,"body":"If you have a team that's in an"},{"startTime":89.72,"endTime":92.1,"body":"advanced level, I'm trying to With"},{"startTime":92.1,"endTime":95.25,"body":"their mastery of scrum or process"},{"startTime":92.1,"endTime":95.25,"body":"doesn't even matter what they're using."},{"startTime":95.57,"endTime":98.51,"body":"If you have a team that's at"},{"startTime":95.57,"endTime":98.51,"body":"their advanced level with whatever"},{"startTime":98.51,"endTime":100.22,"body":"process they're using, that."},{"startTime":100.565,"endTime":104.785,"body":"Could extend your product manager to"},{"startTime":100.565,"endTime":104.785,"body":"be able to work with multiple teams"},{"startTime":104.845,"endTime":108.675,"body":"because of the team kind of takes care"},{"startTime":104.845,"endTime":108.675,"body":"of it, yeah I think that's largely"},{"startTime":108.675,"endTime":111.285,"body":"true, but there's also degrees, right?"},{"startTime":112.225,"endTime":117.914,"body":"You know, I think the team can if they're"},{"startTime":112.225,"endTime":117.914,"body":"a highly advanced team in terms of their"},{"startTime":117.915,"endTime":123.025,"body":"scrum mastery Scrum capabilities or just"},{"startTime":117.915,"endTime":123.025,"body":"working in a team Kanban, whatever they're"},{"startTime":123.025,"endTime":130.33,"body":"using they can to a large degree fill"},{"startTime":123.025,"endTime":130.33,"body":"in for The product person or the scrum"},{"startTime":130.33,"endTime":133.36,"body":"master, specifically the scrum master,"},{"startTime":130.33,"endTime":133.36,"body":"they can definitely do a good job there."},{"startTime":133.74,"endTime":135.84,"body":"But again, it's with within degrees."},{"startTime":135.85,"endTime":140.49,"body":"So if you're not seeing one of"},{"startTime":135.85,"endTime":140.49,"body":"these key roles, individual in"},{"startTime":140.49,"endTime":142.08,"body":"these roles for quite some time."},{"startTime":142.49,"endTime":145.67,"body":"That might be an indication"},{"startTime":142.49,"endTime":145.67,"body":"that perhaps that person is"},{"startTime":146.29,"endTime":148.2,"body":"stretched a little too thin."},{"startTime":148.5,"endTime":152.88,"body":"If you're spread across multiple"},{"startTime":148.5,"endTime":152.88,"body":"teams, then maybe it's okay because"},{"startTime":153.02,"endTime":156.66,"body":"the team handles most of the day to"},{"startTime":153.02,"endTime":156.66,"body":"day stuff, an experienced team, day"},{"startTime":156.66,"endTime":160.139,"body":"to day stuff, meaning like, Hey, like"},{"startTime":156.66,"endTime":160.139,"body":"we, we know how to interview users."},{"startTime":160.64,"endTime":164.35,"body":"We know how to split work in the backlog"},{"startTime":160.64,"endTime":164.35,"body":"and how to basically generate new"},{"startTime":164.35,"endTime":168.799,"body":"work in the backlog and to interview,"},{"startTime":164.35,"endTime":168.799,"body":"like at sprint reviews, for example,"},{"startTime":168.96,"endTime":174.049,"body":"like we know how to pull those"},{"startTime":168.96,"endTime":174.049,"body":"interview questions and to vet what"},{"startTime":174.049,"endTime":175.459,"body":"the priority should be in the backlog."},{"startTime":175.71,"endTime":179.349,"body":"Basically, like the, that product owner"},{"startTime":175.71,"endTime":179.349,"body":"role, the team becomes highly capable"},{"startTime":179.349,"endTime":182.719,"body":"of performing that product owner role to"},{"startTime":179.349,"endTime":182.719,"body":"the team, even if they're not doing the"},{"startTime":182.719,"endTime":184.869,"body":"product manager responsibilities, right?"},{"startTime":185.109,"endTime":189.249,"body":"They, they, they, they are very familiar"},{"startTime":185.109,"endTime":189.249,"body":"with the product owner responsibilities."},{"startTime":189.969,"endTime":193.229,"body":"And, they can really, really"},{"startTime":189.969,"endTime":193.229,"body":"help, extend the product owner"},{"startTime":193.229,"endTime":194.469,"body":"by doing that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":195.249,"endTime":196.079,"body":"Yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":196.079,"endTime":199.539,"body":"I think it's, it's, it's true,"},{"startTime":196.079,"endTime":199.539,"body":"but if you have one team that is"},{"startTime":199.659,"endTime":203.579,"body":"experienced in this manner and the"},{"startTime":199.659,"endTime":203.579,"body":"others not quite as much, you're"},{"startTime":203.579,"endTime":205.319,"body":"going to have some dysfunction there."},{"startTime":205.619,"endTime":208.45,"body":"The immediate thing that I could"},{"startTime":205.619,"endTime":208.45,"body":"see in that situation is you'll"},{"startTime":208.45,"endTime":211.55,"body":"have a product owner that has spent"},{"startTime":208.45,"endTime":211.55,"body":"a lot of time on one team and very"},{"startTime":211.55,"endTime":212.44,"body":"little time with the other teams."},{"startTime":212.44,"endTime":215.66,"body":"And then the other teams get"},{"startTime":212.44,"endTime":215.66,"body":"frustrated, I've seen that before."},{"startTime":215.719,"endTime":217.56,"body":"The other team to get frustrated"},{"startTime":215.719,"endTime":217.56,"body":"at the product manager."},{"startTime":217.86,"endTime":220.06,"body":"That they're, this person's."},{"startTime":220.585,"endTime":224.995,"body":"Not, never available when we need"},{"startTime":220.585,"endTime":224.995,"body":"them and, and things like that, even"},{"startTime":224.995,"endTime":227.335,"body":"though it's not necessarily true is"},{"startTime":224.995,"endTime":227.335,"body":"that they're, they're going where"},{"startTime":227.335,"endTime":231.775,"body":"the business needs them, and the"},{"startTime":227.335,"endTime":231.775,"body":"squeaky wheel is, getting the grease"},{"startTime":231.775,"endTime":233.264,"body":"in this, is that, is that right?"},{"startTime":233.525,"endTime":234.845,"body":"Squeaky wheel gets the grease."},{"startTime":234.874,"endTime":235.354,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":235.414,"endTime":236.734,"body":"It's the oil or whatever."},{"startTime":236.865,"endTime":237.225,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":237.935,"endTime":238.045,"body":"WD40."},{"startTime":238.345,"endTime":239.535,"body":"It's the cheese."},{"startTime":239.535,"endTime":239.985,"body":"Cheese?"},{"startTime":240.075,"endTime":240.625,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":241.125,"endTime":241.945,"body":"Don't try this at home."},{"startTime":242.405,"endTime":242.755,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":242.845,"endTime":245.485,"body":"I mean, the thing we didn't handle"},{"startTime":242.845,"endTime":245.485,"body":"right off the bat, we probably should"},{"startTime":245.495,"endTime":248.185,"body":"handle right in the intro right"},{"startTime":245.495,"endTime":248.185,"body":"off the bat is, Hey, if you're a"},{"startTime":248.185,"endTime":251.634,"body":"product manager or a scrum master,"},{"startTime":248.185,"endTime":251.634,"body":"how many teams should you have?"},{"startTime":251.745,"endTime":253.055,"body":"How many teams can you have?"},{"startTime":253.325,"endTime":256.015,"body":"We should have just said"},{"startTime":253.325,"endTime":256.015,"body":"like one next question."},{"startTime":256.814,"endTime":257.964,"body":"That's the end of the podcast."},{"startTime":257.965,"endTime":259.135,"body":"And that's the end of the podcast."},{"startTime":259.215,"endTime":260.845,"body":"No, that's a good intro."},{"startTime":260.845,"endTime":262.955,"body":"Maybe we can cut that"},{"startTime":260.845,"endTime":262.955,"body":"clip and put in the front."},{"startTime":263.355,"endTime":263.695,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":263.735,"endTime":264.385,"body":"You want to be good."},{"startTime":264.475,"endTime":265.195,"body":"Have one team."},{"startTime":266.135,"endTime":268.075,"body":"You know, if you want to"},{"startTime":266.135,"endTime":268.075,"body":"be great, have one team."},{"startTime":268.164,"endTime":268.985,"body":"You want to be good."},{"startTime":269.695,"endTime":271.545,"body":"One plus maybe here."},{"startTime":271.595,"endTime":272.895,"body":"It depends."},{"startTime":272.895,"endTime":273.225,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":273.355,"endTime":276.075,"body":"And that's when we get into"},{"startTime":273.355,"endTime":276.075,"body":"the right factors, right?"},{"startTime":276.185,"endTime":278.415,"body":"Um, so yeah, definitely team."},{"startTime":278.995,"endTime":283.585,"body":"I'll use the word team maturity,"},{"startTime":278.995,"endTime":283.585,"body":"plays a big factor in this."},{"startTime":283.705,"endTime":287.754,"body":"If you have several teams that are"},{"startTime":283.705,"endTime":287.754,"body":"reasonably mature, let's put it that way."},{"startTime":288.054,"endTime":292.254,"body":"Yeah, I mean, it gives the product owner"},{"startTime":288.054,"endTime":292.254,"body":"some laxity to be able to, do other"},{"startTime":292.254,"endTime":294.464,"body":"things or take on some other teams maybe."},{"startTime":294.884,"endTime":300.304,"body":"Uh, but at the same time, I still, At"},{"startTime":294.884,"endTime":300.304,"body":"the risk of sounding a purist, I still"},{"startTime":300.304,"endTime":305.344,"body":"say it's not as good as just spending"},{"startTime":300.304,"endTime":305.344,"body":"all your time on one team, basically."},{"startTime":305.424,"endTime":306.374,"body":"It's just not."},{"startTime":306.454,"endTime":308.754,"body":"Agile purist is my"},{"startTime":306.454,"endTime":308.754,"body":"favorite four letter word."},{"startTime":308.764,"endTime":309.054,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":309.454,"endTime":311.474,"body":"See our podcast on agile purists."},{"startTime":312.239,"endTime":319.049,"body":"we didn't talk about, the effect of the"},{"startTime":312.239,"endTime":319.049,"body":"right or wrong org structure on this."},{"startTime":319.109,"endTime":320.019,"body":"Well, that's huge."},{"startTime":320.079,"endTime":321.589,"body":"That is absolutely huge."},{"startTime":322.189,"endTime":325.219,"body":"Team maturity is something"},{"startTime":322.189,"endTime":325.219,"body":"that can be evolved, right?"},{"startTime":325.229,"endTime":328.879,"body":"You work with your team and take them"},{"startTime":325.229,"endTime":328.879,"body":"up the experience curve, but yeah,"},{"startTime":329.269,"endTime":331.889,"body":"the, the organizational structure."},{"startTime":332.654,"endTime":337.444,"body":"Really does play a direct"},{"startTime":332.654,"endTime":337.444,"body":"role in, how things are done."},{"startTime":337.694,"endTime":341.884,"body":"So if the org prizes certain,"},{"startTime":337.694,"endTime":341.884,"body":"let's say certain rituals."},{"startTime":341.914,"endTime":342.054,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":342.369,"endTime":343.559,"body":"For one of a better expression."},{"startTime":343.919,"endTime":346.619,"body":"Your product people, your scrum"},{"startTime":343.919,"endTime":346.619,"body":"masters, whoever it is, are going"},{"startTime":346.619,"endTime":351.789,"body":"to be stretched it by having to"},{"startTime":346.619,"endTime":351.789,"body":"attend and attend to those things,"},{"startTime":351.789,"endTime":354.159,"body":"creating artifacts, things like that."},{"startTime":354.889,"endTime":358.169,"body":"People that make a living out"},{"startTime":354.889,"endTime":358.169,"body":"of, polishing PowerPoint decks."},{"startTime":358.469,"endTime":363.289,"body":"So that's what the, that's what the org"},{"startTime":358.469,"endTime":363.289,"body":"prizes and that's what you're, that's"},{"startTime":363.289,"endTime":366.829,"body":"what your value is, that you can actually"},{"startTime":363.289,"endTime":366.829,"body":"produce glitzy PowerPoint as opposed"},{"startTime":366.839,"endTime":368.409,"body":"to really servicing your customer."},{"startTime":368.459,"endTime":372.359,"body":"Also, if I was a product manager and I"},{"startTime":368.459,"endTime":372.359,"body":"was in an organization where I was like"},{"startTime":372.419,"endTime":376.019,"body":"fighting against the organization to do"},{"startTime":372.419,"endTime":376.019,"body":"product management, like if I had a PMO"},{"startTime":376.379,"endTime":382.989,"body":"or something like that, that was, over"},{"startTime":376.379,"endTime":382.989,"body":"me, demanding things like, Oh, you just"},{"startTime":382.989,"endTime":385.639,"body":"got to deal with these guys and give"},{"startTime":382.989,"endTime":385.639,"body":"them what they want and they'll go away."},{"startTime":385.639,"endTime":390.249,"body":"I've been quite a few organizations that,"},{"startTime":385.639,"endTime":390.249,"body":"that like, all of the executive level."},{"startTime":391.059,"endTime":394.469,"body":"Who kind of were, they didn't want"},{"startTime":391.059,"endTime":394.469,"body":"to rock the boat and that, that, that"},{"startTime":394.469,"endTime":397.179,"body":"was their, just give them what they"},{"startTime":394.469,"endTime":397.179,"body":"wanted to, how long does it take you"},{"startTime":397.179,"endTime":401.609,"body":"a day to prepare a deck to go in front"},{"startTime":397.179,"endTime":401.609,"body":"of the, whatever the, the steering"},{"startTime":401.609,"endTime":404.369,"body":"committee, steering committee or what,"},{"startTime":401.609,"endTime":404.369,"body":"yeah, well, maybe not even a steering"},{"startTime":404.369,"endTime":408.069,"body":"committee because steering committee is"},{"startTime":404.369,"endTime":408.069,"body":"usually, there's a customer reps in a"},{"startTime":408.069,"endTime":411.689,"body":"steering committee, but I'm thinking,"},{"startTime":408.069,"endTime":411.689,"body":"I'm thinking like a, like a, like a PMO"},{"startTime":411.739,"endTime":416.989,"body":"the, the people who basically review"},{"startTime":411.739,"endTime":416.989,"body":"and approve project management functions"},{"startTime":416.989,"endTime":418.989,"body":"and activities and stuff like that."},{"startTime":419.009,"endTime":421.739,"body":"Like if you have to go in front of"},{"startTime":419.009,"endTime":421.739,"body":"that type of like if there, if there's"},{"startTime":421.739,"endTime":425.709,"body":"heavy, heavy project management in your"},{"startTime":421.739,"endTime":425.709,"body":"product management because there's a"},{"startTime":425.719,"endTime":429.739,"body":"whatever, an old school influence or a"},{"startTime":425.719,"endTime":429.739,"body":"shadow of a PMO that used to be there."},{"startTime":429.739,"endTime":433.959,"body":"The men were maybe when the org change"},{"startTime":429.739,"endTime":433.959,"body":"or something like that, or, or you have."},{"startTime":434.259,"endTime":438.689,"body":"People in the organization that don't"},{"startTime":434.259,"endTime":438.689,"body":"like the product management and quote,"},{"startTime":438.839,"endTime":445.189,"body":"agile is like a, a new thing, or a new"},{"startTime":438.839,"endTime":445.189,"body":"segment, that, that the organization is"},{"startTime":445.189,"endTime":448.709,"body":"trying or something like that, then you"},{"startTime":445.189,"endTime":448.709,"body":"might have extra hoops to jump through"},{"startTime":448.709,"endTime":452.969,"body":"like this, that, that if you're applying"},{"startTime":448.709,"endTime":452.969,"body":"the scrum model and you want to say"},{"startTime":452.969,"endTime":458.519,"body":"like 15%, 20% of your time is spent in"},{"startTime":452.969,"endTime":458.519,"body":"scrum events, which is single team scrum"},{"startTime":458.519,"endTime":461.569,"body":"events, which doesn't include any kind"},{"startTime":458.519,"endTime":461.569,"body":"of scaling a model or anything that"},{"startTime":461.579,"endTime":463.049,"body":"you could be applied on top of that."},{"startTime":463.779,"endTime":466.329,"body":"And then a percentage of your"},{"startTime":463.779,"endTime":466.329,"body":"time is also trying to deal with"},{"startTime":466.329,"endTime":470.269,"body":"the strategy layer, right, which"},{"startTime":466.329,"endTime":470.269,"body":"Scrum doesn't even interact with."},{"startTime":470.619,"endTime":478.219,"body":"So, now, how much of my time is left"},{"startTime":470.619,"endTime":478.219,"body":"now for all this other extraneous,"},{"startTime":479.119,"endTime":482.009,"body":"activities really are not necessary?"},{"startTime":482.309,"endTime":484.959,"body":"Yeah, I mean, if you're on"},{"startTime":482.309,"endTime":484.959,"body":"multiple teams, yeah, I'd say"},{"startTime":485.429,"endTime":486.909,"body":"you have very little time left."},{"startTime":487.629,"endTime":493.129,"body":"Yeah, I'm just thinking about one team"},{"startTime":487.629,"endTime":493.129,"body":"and now we want to scale to multiple teams"},{"startTime":493.129,"endTime":494.919,"body":"potentially across multiple products."},{"startTime":494.919,"endTime":500.169,"body":"So if you're a product manager and you"},{"startTime":494.919,"endTime":500.169,"body":"have multiple products, a big indicator"},{"startTime":500.179,"endTime":505.246,"body":"here, Given the whole org And the teams"},{"startTime":500.179,"endTime":505.246,"body":"are already lined up to benefit you."},{"startTime":505.246,"endTime":509.886,"body":"You've got mature teams, they know the"},{"startTime":505.246,"endTime":509.886,"body":"processes, they stick with them, the"},{"startTime":509.886,"endTime":514.116,"body":"team members have been there for a while,"},{"startTime":509.886,"endTime":514.116,"body":"you're not stuck in forming forever,"},{"startTime":514.186,"endTime":516.006,"body":"and the organization supports you."},{"startTime":516.306,"endTime":520.116,"body":"Multiple teams across separate products"},{"startTime":516.306,"endTime":520.116,"body":"is still a challenge, in my opinion."},{"startTime":520.531,"endTime":522.931,"body":"It is a challenge, despite the"},{"startTime":520.531,"endTime":522.931,"body":"fact that you have the best"},{"startTime":522.931,"endTime":525.551,"body":"organizational maturity behind it."},{"startTime":525.591,"endTime":527.221,"body":"People are product thinking, right?"},{"startTime":527.391,"endTime":528.801,"body":"It's still a challenge for sure."},{"startTime":529.351,"endTime":532.671,"body":"Because at the end of the day, there are"},{"startTime":529.351,"endTime":532.671,"body":"only so many hours in the day, right?"},{"startTime":532.681,"endTime":535.011,"body":"You can only be focused on so many things."},{"startTime":535.191,"endTime":538.341,"body":"To quickly pivot to another category"},{"startTime":535.191,"endTime":538.341,"body":"that I also think is important is,"},{"startTime":538.701,"endTime":545.011,"body":"assessing the PM's level of experience"},{"startTime":538.701,"endTime":545.011,"body":"or the scrum masters level of experience."},{"startTime":545.011,"endTime":547.701,"body":"If we're talking about a scrum"},{"startTime":545.011,"endTime":547.701,"body":"master, like most of this podcast,"},{"startTime":547.711,"endTime":551.401,"body":"we've talked about a product manager,"},{"startTime":547.711,"endTime":551.401,"body":"but it applies equally, I think."},{"startTime":551.471,"endTime":551.641,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":551.641,"endTime":551.911,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":552.551,"endTime":553.101,"body":"It kind of does."},{"startTime":553.101,"endTime":558.501,"body":"Cause if the organization and the"},{"startTime":553.101,"endTime":558.501,"body":"team lend themselves to you, feeling"},{"startTime":558.501,"endTime":561.901,"body":"comfortable enough to have another"},{"startTime":558.501,"endTime":561.901,"body":"team, then you're gonna do it."},{"startTime":562.201,"endTime":562.551,"body":"That's good."},{"startTime":562.851,"endTime":565.261,"body":"Yeah, so I think there's a lot there."},{"startTime":565.261,"endTime":570.501,"body":"So, first of all, People that don't"},{"startTime":565.261,"endTime":570.501,"body":"have much experience will struggle right"},{"startTime":570.501,"endTime":573.261,"body":"off the bat because they don't want to"},{"startTime":570.501,"endTime":573.261,"body":"do the same thing they're doing with"},{"startTime":573.311,"endTime":575.631,"body":"team A, with team B, team C, et cetera."},{"startTime":576.121,"endTime":578.621,"body":"Whereas the other side of the"},{"startTime":576.121,"endTime":578.621,"body":"spectrum, people that have been"},{"startTime":578.631,"endTime":583.741,"body":"around the block a few times, they'll"},{"startTime":578.631,"endTime":583.741,"body":"know how to prioritize their time."},{"startTime":583.781,"endTime":586.181,"body":"They'll know how much"},{"startTime":583.781,"endTime":586.181,"body":"to delegate to somebody."},{"startTime":587.071,"endTime":590.821,"body":"And they'll encourage the teams"},{"startTime":587.071,"endTime":590.821,"body":"to do more of some of those"},{"startTime":590.821,"endTime":592.031,"body":"things that they can do more of."},{"startTime":592.391,"endTime":592.741,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":592.881,"endTime":594.481,"body":"So let go of some of those things."},{"startTime":594.481,"endTime":595.691,"body":"And that's something that's learned."},{"startTime":595.901,"endTime":596.231,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":596.271,"endTime":598.211,"body":"Because often people are afraid to let go."},{"startTime":598.301,"endTime":603.201,"body":"The, the thing I had to get comfortable"},{"startTime":598.301,"endTime":603.201,"body":"with as a product manager is, there"},{"startTime":603.201,"endTime":605.731,"body":"are things in the scrum guide that"},{"startTime":603.201,"endTime":605.731,"body":"are squarely my responsibility."},{"startTime":605.871,"endTime":608.301,"body":"Stakeholder communication is"},{"startTime":605.871,"endTime":608.301,"body":"squarely my responsibility."},{"startTime":608.531,"endTime":613.791,"body":"Figuring out what stakeholders"},{"startTime":608.531,"endTime":613.791,"body":"to get at, to arrange so that"},{"startTime":613.791,"endTime":617.431,"body":"they're at the sprint review, for"},{"startTime":613.791,"endTime":617.431,"body":"example, squarely my responsibility."},{"startTime":617.911,"endTime":621.151,"body":"I had to get comfortable going to"},{"startTime":617.911,"endTime":621.151,"body":"my team and saying, I am, I have"},{"startTime":621.171,"endTime":624.451,"body":"too many teams right now to do this."},{"startTime":624.951,"endTime":629.741,"body":"With the, with the, the rigor, I mean,"},{"startTime":624.951,"endTime":629.741,"body":"the rigor is a good word, I guess, like"},{"startTime":630.121,"endTime":634.941,"body":"I have to, I have, I'm, I'm, I'm too"},{"startTime":630.121,"endTime":634.941,"body":"scattered across all these teams and"},{"startTime":634.941,"endTime":639.611,"body":"all these activities to do a really good"},{"startTime":634.941,"endTime":639.611,"body":"job at stakeholder communication right"},{"startTime":639.611,"endTime":643.761,"body":"now to get to make sure that we have the"},{"startTime":639.611,"endTime":643.761,"body":"right people in the room and I need help."},{"startTime":644.696,"endTime":647.246,"body":"And the team members would jump on"},{"startTime":644.696,"endTime":647.246,"body":"that to say, okay, I've got, we got it."},{"startTime":647.246,"endTime":647.776,"body":"Who do we need?"},{"startTime":647.786,"endTime":648.466,"body":"Who do you think we need?"},{"startTime":648.466,"endTime":649.506,"body":"I think we need this person."},{"startTime":649.736,"endTime":650.566,"body":"Let's reach out to them."},{"startTime":650.566,"endTime":653.106,"body":"If they're not available, I've got these"},{"startTime":650.566,"endTime":653.106,"body":"other two people, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":653.336,"endTime":656.916,"body":"And, and to, to open a dialogue,"},{"startTime":653.336,"endTime":656.916,"body":"to do all that, like that's, it's"},{"startTime":656.976,"endTime":659.986,"body":"pretty simple quite honestly,"},{"startTime":656.976,"endTime":659.986,"body":"but it's just, when I get busy."},{"startTime":660.616,"endTime":665.196,"body":"Simple stuff it falls off the table"},{"startTime":660.616,"endTime":665.196,"body":"onto the floor and then I just, I can't"},{"startTime":665.206,"endTime":666.436,"body":"bend down to pick it up, you know?"},{"startTime":667.016,"endTime":667.496,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":667.556,"endTime":669.036,"body":"I mean, that's, that's"},{"startTime":667.556,"endTime":669.036,"body":"a good way to put it."},{"startTime":669.236,"endTime":674.246,"body":"So yes, the team members will definitely"},{"startTime":669.236,"endTime":674.246,"body":"pick up, but it all starts with you"},{"startTime":674.656,"endTime":677.486,"body":"being comfortable to let go, right?"},{"startTime":677.756,"endTime":680.256,"body":", and like I said, a lot of people"},{"startTime":677.756,"endTime":680.256,"body":"don't feel right doing that."},{"startTime":680.761,"endTime":682.121,"body":"And you need to try that out."},{"startTime":682.421,"endTime":686.201,"body":"I mean, it's not even, it's not even"},{"startTime":682.421,"endTime":686.201,"body":"the fact that you have, all these teams."},{"startTime":686.231,"endTime":689.181,"body":"Maybe you just have one team, but the"},{"startTime":686.231,"endTime":689.181,"body":"day you're not there, what happens?"},{"startTime":689.441,"endTime":689.691,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":689.691,"endTime":691.871,"body":"If you're on a specific"},{"startTime":689.691,"endTime":691.871,"body":"day, you're not there."},{"startTime":691.911,"endTime":692.181,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":692.601,"endTime":692.931,"body":"What happens?"},{"startTime":693.161,"endTime":693.401,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":693.411,"endTime":697.541,"body":"So you need to make sure that the team is"},{"startTime":693.411,"endTime":697.541,"body":"empowered to kind of run with it, right?"},{"startTime":697.821,"endTime":697.841,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":697.851,"endTime":699.141,"body":"Give them the rope to work with."},{"startTime":699.201,"endTime":702.906,"body":"Yeah, in the period of my career"},{"startTime":699.201,"endTime":702.906,"body":"where I was, In contracting."},{"startTime":703.146,"endTime":708.106,"body":"I, I definitely got in the mode of, I can"},{"startTime":703.146,"endTime":708.106,"body":"never take vacation, because usually I"},{"startTime":708.106,"endTime":712.726,"body":"was partnered with, the teams that were"},{"startTime":708.106,"endTime":712.726,"body":"not, they, they were not the advanced"},{"startTime":712.731,"endTime":717.636,"body":"level of maturity, so they would need me"},{"startTime":712.731,"endTime":717.636,"body":"there to help them with a lot of stuff."},{"startTime":717.641,"endTime":721.116,"body":"So, again, like you can't, you can't,"},{"startTime":717.641,"endTime":721.116,"body":"when you're on contract and you step"},{"startTime":721.116,"endTime":723.666,"body":"away and things, kind of go to crap."},{"startTime":723.966,"endTime":726.126,"body":"You're the one that's blamed for them."},{"startTime":726.326,"endTime":729.736,"body":"Cause usually the organizations that"},{"startTime":726.326,"endTime":729.736,"body":"you're coupled with, they're learning too."},{"startTime":730.356,"endTime":734.646,"body":"So they, they revert to bad behaviors when"},{"startTime":730.356,"endTime":734.646,"body":"they get stressed and stuff like that."},{"startTime":735.246,"endTime":737.756,"body":"So you have to work through that"},{"startTime":735.246,"endTime":737.756,"body":"with them at the same time and it's,"},{"startTime":738.346,"endTime":742.016,"body":"I got in this weird mode where I"},{"startTime":738.346,"endTime":742.016,"body":"feel like, well, I can't be gone."},{"startTime":742.426,"endTime":743.536,"body":"You know, that's not true though."},{"startTime":743.536,"endTime":744.996,"body":"Then also it's not sustainable."},{"startTime":745.056,"endTime":748.176,"body":"No, definitely not sustainable"},{"startTime":745.056,"endTime":748.176,"body":"in those scenarios."},{"startTime":748.196,"endTime":752.046,"body":"That organization, is probably"},{"startTime":748.196,"endTime":752.046,"body":"not going to keep the teams around"},{"startTime":752.116,"endTime":755.406,"body":"long enough for the teams to even"},{"startTime":752.116,"endTime":755.406,"body":"go up that maturity curve, right?"},{"startTime":755.516,"endTime":759.226,"body":"Because you can salvage that situation"},{"startTime":755.516,"endTime":759.226,"body":"even in that scenario, right?"},{"startTime":759.736,"endTime":760.806,"body":"Assuming you had."},{"startTime":760.981,"endTime":764.431,"body":"You know, teams that stayed"},{"startTime":760.981,"endTime":764.431,"body":"intact, that you can work with"},{"startTime":764.511,"endTime":765.721,"body":"and empower them over time."},{"startTime":765.741,"endTime":768.971,"body":"Because chances are most of"},{"startTime":765.741,"endTime":768.971,"body":"the teams also contract teams."},{"startTime":768.981,"endTime":769.161,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":769.841,"endTime":773.211,"body":"So they're not, they're also gonna"},{"startTime":769.841,"endTime":773.211,"body":"feel a little bit hesitant about"},{"startTime":774.101,"endTime":775.781,"body":"coming out of their box, right?"},{"startTime":776.111,"endTime":776.281,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":776.291,"endTime":777.481,"body":"And playing in the other lane."},{"startTime":777.681,"endTime":786.026,"body":"With the PM's experience comes a careful"},{"startTime":777.681,"endTime":786.026,"body":"analysis of, Your time commitments"},{"startTime":786.226,"endTime":790.936,"body":"so the, the role of product manager,"},{"startTime":786.226,"endTime":790.936,"body":"I feel like, I've been doing it for"},{"startTime":790.936,"endTime":797.056,"body":"a while and I still struggle with the"},{"startTime":790.936,"endTime":797.056,"body":"managing the time commitments to the"},{"startTime":797.206,"endTime":798.946,"body":"different levels in the organization."},{"startTime":798.956,"endTime":802.266,"body":"For example, every team I'm on, like"},{"startTime":798.956,"endTime":802.266,"body":"we talked about earlier about like"},{"startTime":802.486,"endTime":806.406,"body":"if you're using scrum, scrum has a"},{"startTime":802.486,"endTime":806.406,"body":"percentage overhead just for the events"},{"startTime":806.416,"endTime":809.896,"body":"and like not even pulling ahead over"},{"startTime":806.416,"endTime":809.896,"body":"just for the events and then you add"},{"startTime":809.896,"endTime":813.866,"body":"multiple teams, you add, you stack"},{"startTime":809.896,"endTime":813.866,"body":"multiple percentages of overhead."},{"startTime":814.166,"endTime":814.766,"body":"On yourself."},{"startTime":814.766,"endTime":817.286,"body":"So you're basically like carving"},{"startTime":814.766,"endTime":817.286,"body":"away a huge piece of your time."},{"startTime":817.816,"endTime":821.126,"body":"And that's just the roles that"},{"startTime":817.816,"endTime":821.126,"body":"the team, the, the, the, the, the"},{"startTime":821.126,"endTime":822.896,"body":"capacity of the team needs you in."},{"startTime":823.686,"endTime":827.206,"body":"That doesn't even speak to the other"},{"startTime":823.686,"endTime":827.206,"body":"roles of the product management job,"},{"startTime":827.506,"endTime":832.136,"body":"which is, working on strategy and working"},{"startTime":827.506,"endTime":832.136,"body":"on pricing and working on marketing"},{"startTime":832.146,"endTime":833.106,"body":"and working with other departments."},{"startTime":833.741,"endTime":836.381,"body":"And, and you can make the same case for"},{"startTime":833.741,"endTime":836.381,"body":"a scrum master that doesn't even talk"},{"startTime":836.391,"endTime":840.971,"body":"about coaching up in the organization and"},{"startTime":836.391,"endTime":840.971,"body":"trying to make change organizationally."},{"startTime":841.171,"endTime":846.281,"body":"I'm hyper aware of how much time"},{"startTime":841.171,"endTime":846.281,"body":"I'm committing for each team"},{"startTime":846.461,"endTime":848.681,"body":"doing these product activities."},{"startTime":848.781,"endTime":854.941,"body":"the way that I tried to deal with this is"},{"startTime":848.781,"endTime":854.941,"body":"I tried to push back against any attempt"},{"startTime":855.121,"endTime":860.291,"body":"to, do refinements or any other team"},{"startTime":855.121,"endTime":860.291,"body":"specific activities like that outside"},{"startTime":860.301,"endTime":862.871,"body":"of the regularly scheduled events."},{"startTime":863.051,"endTime":866.591,"body":"I try to push everything to the time"},{"startTime":863.051,"endTime":866.591,"body":"box of the regularly scheduled events."},{"startTime":866.971,"endTime":867.881,"body":"And it doesn't always work."},{"startTime":867.881,"endTime":869.411,"body":"It doesn't always work for certain."},{"startTime":869.421,"endTime":872.091,"body":"Sometimes something comes up that's super"},{"startTime":869.421,"endTime":872.091,"body":"important that we have to deal with."},{"startTime":872.681,"endTime":876.521,"body":"But I try to say like, oh, we, we, all"},{"startTime":872.681,"endTime":876.521,"body":"these real important items come up."},{"startTime":876.961,"endTime":880.401,"body":"And I really want to get with you"},{"startTime":876.961,"endTime":880.401,"body":"to, to, to figure out what we need"},{"startTime":880.401,"endTime":883.711,"body":"to do for the future and to get a"},{"startTime":880.401,"endTime":883.711,"body":"plan, to get a timeline in place."},{"startTime":884.291,"endTime":887.121,"body":"Usually people that are"},{"startTime":884.291,"endTime":887.121,"body":"requesting stuff at the last"},{"startTime":887.121,"endTime":888.061,"body":"minute, they all want timelines."},{"startTime":888.061,"endTime":888.161,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":888.461,"endTime":889.601,"body":"Are you available on Monday?"},{"startTime":889.671,"endTime":892.481,"body":"Because we do our refinements"},{"startTime":889.671,"endTime":892.481,"body":"on Monday in the morning."},{"startTime":892.581,"endTime":894.821,"body":"So, if you're available Monday"},{"startTime":892.581,"endTime":894.821,"body":"morning, we can talk about"},{"startTime":894.821,"endTime":896.461,"body":"your very important request."},{"startTime":896.461,"endTime":898.031,"body":"Oh no, I'm too busy on Monday morning."},{"startTime":898.611,"endTime":900.251,"body":"Okay, well how about"},{"startTime":898.611,"endTime":900.251,"body":"next week Monday morning?"},{"startTime":900.551,"endTime":901.331,"body":"You gotta have it now."},{"startTime":901.631,"endTime":906.091,"body":"If you gotta have it now, I'll find time"},{"startTime":901.631,"endTime":906.091,"body":"with my whole team, and I'll find time"},{"startTime":906.101,"endTime":911.001,"body":"on the calendars, but if your calendar is"},{"startTime":906.101,"endTime":911.001,"body":"totally booked and I have multiple teams"},{"startTime":911.406,"endTime":913.936,"body":"So, I have multiple commitments as well."},{"startTime":914.476,"endTime":917.546,"body":"Like, I can't just push commitments to"},{"startTime":914.476,"endTime":917.546,"body":"other stakeholders and stuff like that."},{"startTime":917.876,"endTime":921.896,"body":"So, if you can't find the time"},{"startTime":917.876,"endTime":921.896,"body":"to sit down with the team, and"},{"startTime":921.966,"endTime":923.256,"body":"I could even be out of the room."},{"startTime":923.446,"endTime":923.816,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":924.196,"endTime":927.026,"body":"You could find time with the team"},{"startTime":924.196,"endTime":927.026,"body":"where maybe I'm, if I'm gonna be the"},{"startTime":927.026,"endTime":929.606,"body":"roadblock, I can step out of it and"},{"startTime":927.026,"endTime":929.606,"body":"trust that my team's gonna do it."},{"startTime":929.846,"endTime":932.186,"body":"Again, going back to our"},{"startTime":929.846,"endTime":932.186,"body":"point about team maturity."},{"startTime":932.186,"endTime":933.806,"body":"If I trust my team to do it."},{"startTime":934.661,"endTime":938.511,"body":"But also like the time commitment,"},{"startTime":934.661,"endTime":938.511,"body":"the, if you use a scrum and you"},{"startTime":938.511,"endTime":943.101,"body":"have time boxes, you already have"},{"startTime":938.511,"endTime":943.101,"body":"one tool in your chest to push back"},{"startTime":943.101,"endTime":944.771,"body":"against the, like a culture of chaos."},{"startTime":944.771,"endTime":946.131,"body":"It just wants to use all your time."},{"startTime":946.431,"endTime":949.581,"body":"That has helped me a lot"},{"startTime":946.431,"endTime":949.581,"body":"for the teams using scrum."},{"startTime":949.881,"endTime":952.521,"body":"You make a good point, you"},{"startTime":949.881,"endTime":952.521,"body":"need to know when to say no."},{"startTime":952.571,"endTime":952.921,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":953.311,"endTime":957.291,"body":"And so again, this goes back to the"},{"startTime":953.311,"endTime":957.291,"body":"maturity question we raised earlier."},{"startTime":957.591,"endTime":959.981,"body":"A lot of times people just"},{"startTime":957.591,"endTime":959.981,"body":"want to say, yes, sir."},{"startTime":959.981,"endTime":960.541,"body":"Yes, ma'am."},{"startTime":960.541,"endTime":960.741,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":961.061,"endTime":962.981,"body":"Whatever that somebody"},{"startTime":961.061,"endTime":962.981,"body":"asks for something, but."},{"startTime":963.551,"endTime":964.021,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":964.071,"endTime":971.161,"body":"So if you're not that highly advanced on"},{"startTime":964.071,"endTime":971.161,"body":"your experience level and you have pretty"},{"startTime":971.161,"endTime":975.971,"body":"needy teams, multiple teams, you're going"},{"startTime":971.161,"endTime":975.971,"body":"to have a tough time right there, right?"},{"startTime":976.021,"endTime":981.151,"body":"It's something's got to give, so this is"},{"startTime":976.021,"endTime":981.151,"body":"where people who don't change how they're"},{"startTime":981.151,"endTime":983.621,"body":"approaching the work, they risk burnout."},{"startTime":984.416,"endTime":986.746,"body":"Because you know, just say"},{"startTime":984.416,"endTime":986.746,"body":"yes to everything and then"},{"startTime":986.746,"endTime":987.846,"body":"you'll work longer hours."},{"startTime":987.876,"endTime":988.786,"body":"You'll work weekends."},{"startTime":988.826,"endTime":992.766,"body":"I mean, it's not cool to talk about in"},{"startTime":988.826,"endTime":992.766,"body":"in the work environment like people like"},{"startTime":992.776,"endTime":996.036,"body":"people's ages and stuff like that But"},{"startTime":992.776,"endTime":996.036,"body":"I've been on a lot of teams with with that"},{"startTime":996.056,"endTime":1003.346,"body":"that that skew younger that want to please"},{"startTime":996.056,"endTime":1003.346,"body":"People they want to say yes, they don't"},{"startTime":1003.346,"endTime":1006.616,"body":"want to they don't want to be perceived"},{"startTime":1003.346,"endTime":1006.616,"body":"I guess it maybe it's not maybe it has"},{"startTime":1006.616,"endTime":1011.296,"body":"nothing to do with age actually, but They"},{"startTime":1006.616,"endTime":1011.296,"body":"want to be perceived as the go to people."},{"startTime":1011.306,"endTime":1014.276,"body":"They want to be perceived as"},{"startTime":1011.306,"endTime":1014.276,"body":"like, we can do it, right?"},{"startTime":1014.326,"endTime":1017.916,"body":"But, but like even to those type"},{"startTime":1014.326,"endTime":1017.916,"body":"of teams, I would say like you"},{"startTime":1017.916,"endTime":1019.776,"body":"can, you can still be like that."},{"startTime":1019.846,"endTime":1023.206,"body":"You can still be gung ho and"},{"startTime":1019.846,"endTime":1023.206,"body":"be all fiery that you want to,"},{"startTime":1023.476,"endTime":1024.296,"body":"take on the world or whatever."},{"startTime":1024.296,"endTime":1024.836,"body":"But also."},{"startTime":1025.586,"endTime":1026.676,"body":"You can still be helpful."},{"startTime":1027.071,"endTime":1032.711,"body":"And track the time that you spend helping"},{"startTime":1027.071,"endTime":1032.711,"body":"people, you can still, you can do both."},{"startTime":1033.011,"endTime":1033.821,"body":"You certainly can."},{"startTime":1033.831,"endTime":1037.421,"body":"And I think this just goes right"},{"startTime":1033.831,"endTime":1037.421,"body":"back to the individual team"},{"startTime":1037.421,"endTime":1039.261,"body":"members experience level there too."},{"startTime":1039.311,"endTime":1039.621,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1039.631,"endTime":1039.831,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1039.851,"endTime":1042.381,"body":"They learn to say, maybe not now."},{"startTime":1042.431,"endTime":1042.671,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1042.681,"endTime":1043.191,"body":"Maybe later."},{"startTime":1043.281,"endTime":1043.481,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1043.481,"endTime":1047.221,"body":"And then eventually,"},{"startTime":1043.481,"endTime":1047.221,"body":"decide between A and B."},{"startTime":1047.741,"endTime":1047.981,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1047.981,"endTime":1048.211,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1048.631,"endTime":1050.931,"body":"Well, Scrum Master actually"},{"startTime":1048.631,"endTime":1050.931,"body":"can help a lot with this."},{"startTime":1050.951,"endTime":1051.351,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1051.771,"endTime":1055.201,"body":"Because they can intercept a lot"},{"startTime":1051.771,"endTime":1055.201,"body":"of this, from the team members."},{"startTime":1055.201,"endTime":1059.281,"body":"I mean, I've been lucky enough to be on a"},{"startTime":1055.201,"endTime":1059.281,"body":"couple teams where they had a scrum master"},{"startTime":1059.281,"endTime":1062.661,"body":"that would, tell the team members if"},{"startTime":1059.281,"endTime":1062.661,"body":"someone comes and asks you for something,"},{"startTime":1063.381,"endTime":1068.551,"body":"and you're busy with other things, like"},{"startTime":1063.381,"endTime":1068.551,"body":"don't, feel free to drop my name and say"},{"startTime":1068.681,"endTime":1072.441,"body":"that you're working on something urgent"},{"startTime":1068.681,"endTime":1072.441,"body":"for me, and then let them come talk to me."},{"startTime":1072.731,"endTime":1074.501,"body":"And, and that's the way"},{"startTime":1072.731,"endTime":1074.501,"body":"they handle it, you know."},{"startTime":1074.661,"endTime":1076.911,"body":"I'm not saying it's a great process,"},{"startTime":1074.661,"endTime":1076.911,"body":"cause then everything, they'll go, oh,"},{"startTime":1076.911,"endTime":1082.041,"body":"you're always working on something urgent"},{"startTime":1076.911,"endTime":1082.041,"body":"for, And that doesn't, that, why is OM"},{"startTime":1082.051,"endTime":1086.931,"body":"always have urgent things, it may not"},{"startTime":1082.051,"endTime":1086.931,"body":"be a great scenario, but, but it may"},{"startTime":1086.931,"endTime":1089.311,"body":"not be a, it may not be a great excuse."},{"startTime":1089.741,"endTime":1094.721,"body":"However, it does give the team member"},{"startTime":1089.741,"endTime":1094.721,"body":"an out if they truly are, re like"},{"startTime":1094.731,"endTime":1098.071,"body":"really focused and trying not to come"},{"startTime":1094.731,"endTime":1098.071,"body":"off of, of the tests that they're on."},{"startTime":1098.861,"endTime":1099.751,"body":"Yeah, that's a good point."},{"startTime":1099.771,"endTime":1104.821,"body":"I just hope that that scrum master himself"},{"startTime":1099.771,"endTime":1104.821,"body":"or herself You know, they're not on three"},{"startTime":1104.821,"endTime":1108.411,"body":"or four teams because then it becomes"},{"startTime":1104.821,"endTime":1108.411,"body":"difficult right even for them Yeah, I"},{"startTime":1108.411,"endTime":1110.461,"body":"could see that I could see that; I mean,"},{"startTime":1110.771,"endTime":1113.761,"body":"If you're a scrum master for multiple"},{"startTime":1110.771,"endTime":1113.761,"body":"teams and assuming they're all"},{"startTime":1113.881,"endTime":1119.406,"body":"relatively related the other challenge"},{"startTime":1113.881,"endTime":1119.406,"body":"that I could see a product as well."},{"startTime":1119.426,"endTime":1122.926,"body":"The other challenge I could see is"},{"startTime":1119.426,"endTime":1122.926,"body":"getting these teams to talk to one"},{"startTime":1122.936,"endTime":1127.156,"body":"another and getting these teams to go"},{"startTime":1122.936,"endTime":1127.156,"body":"out into the organization to communicate"},{"startTime":1127.156,"endTime":1128.426,"body":"about what they're working on."},{"startTime":1128.896,"endTime":1129.116,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1129.116,"endTime":1133.126,"body":"So, so basically, broadcasting the"},{"startTime":1129.116,"endTime":1133.126,"body":"signal of all the good work that"},{"startTime":1133.126,"endTime":1136.956,"body":"they're doing that, like when you're"},{"startTime":1133.126,"endTime":1136.956,"body":"a product manager and you have two,"},{"startTime":1136.996,"endTime":1143.256,"body":"three, four teams, it becomes more and"},{"startTime":1136.996,"endTime":1143.256,"body":"more and more difficult to, broadcast."},{"startTime":1143.536,"endTime":1145.686,"body":"Like, these are all the great things"},{"startTime":1143.536,"endTime":1145.686,"body":"we're doing with the organization."},{"startTime":1146.061,"endTime":1149.531,"body":"Because because you're stuck like you're"},{"startTime":1146.061,"endTime":1149.531,"body":"you're you you become so close to all"},{"startTime":1149.531,"endTime":1153.721,"body":"the individual problems It's hard to back"},{"startTime":1149.531,"endTime":1153.721,"body":"away to be like look how far we've come"},{"startTime":1154.011,"endTime":1157.801,"body":"You know, I mean maybe maybe like at a"},{"startTime":1154.011,"endTime":1157.801,"body":"like a quarterly meeting or like at the"},{"startTime":1157.801,"endTime":1161.251,"body":"yearly meeting where you talk about You"},{"startTime":1157.801,"endTime":1161.251,"body":"know, maybe if you have some like a like"},{"startTime":1161.251,"endTime":1165.111,"body":"a great framework to say This is where we"},{"startTime":1161.251,"endTime":1165.111,"body":"were last year at this time You mean let"},{"startTime":1165.111,"endTime":1167.621,"body":"me look back at my reports or whatever"},{"startTime":1165.111,"endTime":1167.621,"body":"and then this is where we are this year"},{"startTime":1167.621,"endTime":1171.591,"body":"at this time Maybe if you have a good"},{"startTime":1167.621,"endTime":1171.591,"body":"mechanism for that in your company You"},{"startTime":1171.591,"endTime":1176.081,"body":"can get over this, but I've seen a lot of"},{"startTime":1171.591,"endTime":1176.081,"body":"people get tripped up in just being the"},{"startTime":1176.091,"endTime":1179.241,"body":"day to day of communicating all the stuff."},{"startTime":1179.271,"endTime":1182.251,"body":"Like that becomes a whole"},{"startTime":1179.271,"endTime":1182.251,"body":"different job, you know?"},{"startTime":1182.301,"endTime":1183.431,"body":"That becomes a whole different job."},{"startTime":1183.681,"endTime":1184.361,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1184.371,"endTime":1188.581,"body":"Even if you could relay the, the messaging"},{"startTime":1184.371,"endTime":1188.581,"body":"around the good stuff the teams have"},{"startTime":1188.581,"endTime":1192.561,"body":"done, it becomes diluted because you"},{"startTime":1188.581,"endTime":1192.561,"body":"haven't really focused at that level."},{"startTime":1192.821,"endTime":1194.821,"body":"You've been too deep in the weeds, right?"},{"startTime":1195.121,"endTime":1196.391,"body":"The focus."},{"startTime":1196.691,"endTime":1201.041,"body":"I guess we're talking about like, the"},{"startTime":1196.691,"endTime":1201.041,"body":"communication out to the rest of the"},{"startTime":1201.041,"endTime":1205.751,"body":"organization, the collaboration with other"},{"startTime":1201.041,"endTime":1205.751,"body":"teams, when you pick work up, like if you"},{"startTime":1205.751,"endTime":1209.611,"body":"were just scattered where you're trying"},{"startTime":1205.751,"endTime":1209.611,"body":"to go as quickly, you, you, but basically"},{"startTime":1209.611,"endTime":1212.791,"body":"what you're trying to do is you're trying"},{"startTime":1209.611,"endTime":1212.791,"body":"to put in as minimal amount of work."},{"startTime":1213.091,"endTime":1216.901,"body":"to get the work moving and then"},{"startTime":1213.091,"endTime":1216.901,"body":"you're, you're like a cowboy."},{"startTime":1216.901,"endTime":1218.851,"body":"You're off to this, to the next town."},{"startTime":1218.921,"endTime":1219.241,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1219.241,"endTime":1220.881,"body":"You just riding away into the sunset."},{"startTime":1221.641,"endTime":1224.091,"body":"You, you're not sticking around"},{"startTime":1221.641,"endTime":1224.091,"body":"to see the metrics afterwards."},{"startTime":1224.091,"endTime":1227.441,"body":"You're not talking to everyone about how"},{"startTime":1224.091,"endTime":1227.441,"body":"they feel about the work that's planned."},{"startTime":1227.441,"endTime":1229.821,"body":"You know, Hey, give me a confidence"},{"startTime":1227.441,"endTime":1229.821,"body":"about how the work that's planned."},{"startTime":1229.821,"endTime":1230.861,"body":"And you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1230.861,"endTime":1232.341,"body":"You're not checking in every"},{"startTime":1230.861,"endTime":1232.341,"body":"day, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1232.341,"endTime":1232.706,"body":"Cause you're."},{"startTime":1232.856,"endTime":1234.096,"body":"You're, you're scattered."},{"startTime":1234.146,"endTime":1234.636,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1235.346,"endTime":1240.336,"body":"Yeah, your context switching all the"},{"startTime":1235.346,"endTime":1240.336,"body":"time and that's not a good thing at all."},{"startTime":1240.506,"endTime":1240.846,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1240.846,"endTime":1243.926,"body":"Somebody said, if you chase two"},{"startTime":1240.846,"endTime":1243.926,"body":"squirrels, they'll both get away."},{"startTime":1244.636,"endTime":1245.036,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1245.516,"endTime":1247.076,"body":"So I could see the visual, right?"},{"startTime":1247.186,"endTime":1248.046,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":1248.096,"endTime":1249.426,"body":"It just can't be everywhere."},{"startTime":1249.536,"endTime":1251.606,"body":"We're kind of dipping into"},{"startTime":1249.536,"endTime":1251.606,"body":"two categories right now."},{"startTime":1251.606,"endTime":1253.796,"body":"We're kind of dipping into"},{"startTime":1251.606,"endTime":1253.796,"body":"communication collaboration across"},{"startTime":1253.796,"endTime":1255.186,"body":"the whole organization, which is."},{"startTime":1255.481,"endTime":1258.611,"body":"How do you, how do you let people"},{"startTime":1255.481,"endTime":1258.611,"body":"know what you're working on?"},{"startTime":1258.921,"endTime":1261.051,"body":"Like this is a stakeholder communication."},{"startTime":1261.341,"endTime":1264.111,"body":"It's stakeholder communication, but"},{"startTime":1261.341,"endTime":1264.111,"body":"also it's, if you're, if you're building"},{"startTime":1264.111,"endTime":1267.601,"body":"features with other development teams"},{"startTime":1264.111,"endTime":1267.601,"body":"that you are not the product manager for,"},{"startTime":1267.901,"endTime":1272.161,"body":"you need to collaborate with that team on"},{"startTime":1267.901,"endTime":1272.161,"body":"the, the solution that you end up with."},{"startTime":1272.341,"endTime":1272.911,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1273.241,"endTime":1274.311,"body":"And, and."},{"startTime":1274.911,"endTime":1279.191,"body":"Like you want to end up with a a solid"},{"startTime":1274.911,"endTime":1279.191,"body":"architecture that enables you to the"},{"startTime":1279.191,"endTime":1283.731,"body":"future if you're just trying to throw"},{"startTime":1279.191,"endTime":1283.731,"body":"if everything is MVP Whatever we can"},{"startTime":1283.731,"endTime":1287.891,"body":"do into like squeezing out, you know"},{"startTime":1283.731,"endTime":1287.891,"body":"in the time that we have wringing"},{"startTime":1287.891,"endTime":1294.266,"body":"out our resources Like collaboration"},{"startTime":1287.891,"endTime":1294.266,"body":"really will take a hit Absolutely."},{"startTime":1294.266,"endTime":1294.506,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1294.506,"endTime":1298.466,"body":"So then people do things like,"},{"startTime":1294.506,"endTime":1298.466,"body":"they'll put patches on it."},{"startTime":1298.476,"endTime":1298.756,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1299.046,"endTime":1302.066,"body":"So they'll say, okay, well, maybe"},{"startTime":1299.046,"endTime":1302.066,"body":"we can get somebody to go talk to"},{"startTime":1302.066,"endTime":1305.026,"body":"those people over there and then"},{"startTime":1302.066,"endTime":1305.026,"body":"come tell us what they learned."},{"startTime":1305.526,"endTime":1309.186,"body":"So already you've got more"},{"startTime":1305.526,"endTime":1309.186,"body":"vectors involved, more distortion"},{"startTime":1309.186,"endTime":1310.266,"body":"going on in the messaging."},{"startTime":1310.956,"endTime":1312.691,"body":"I've seen teams where, or."},{"startTime":1313.001,"endTime":1317.631,"body":"I should say organizations where they"},{"startTime":1313.001,"endTime":1317.631,"body":"have functions that do this and they"},{"startTime":1317.661,"endTime":1320.811,"body":"hide under labels like change management."},{"startTime":1320.831,"endTime":1322.141,"body":"These are change management people."},{"startTime":1322.141,"endTime":1325.701,"body":"Their job is to go relay messaging"},{"startTime":1322.141,"endTime":1325.701,"body":"out to other teams and even"},{"startTime":1325.721,"endTime":1326.881,"body":"stakeholders and customers."},{"startTime":1326.911,"endTime":1327.161,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1327.461,"endTime":1333.026,"body":"While I see some value in some, a"},{"startTime":1327.461,"endTime":1333.026,"body":"dedicated piece of the org doing that."},{"startTime":1333.366,"endTime":1337.076,"body":"I think when you have multiple"},{"startTime":1333.366,"endTime":1337.076,"body":"teams, there's just really"},{"startTime":1337.116,"endTime":1338.406,"body":"no shortcutting that comes."},{"startTime":1338.406,"endTime":1339.446,"body":"You have to be there."},{"startTime":1339.526,"endTime":1339.846,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1340.146,"endTime":1343.256,"body":"You know, the other thing about this"},{"startTime":1340.146,"endTime":1343.256,"body":"community, the other thing that I"},{"startTime":1343.266,"endTime":1347.106,"body":"think about, about this communication"},{"startTime":1343.266,"endTime":1347.106,"body":"collaboration, item that we're talking"},{"startTime":1347.106,"endTime":1353.501,"body":"about is, you have stakeholder teams who"},{"startTime":1347.106,"endTime":1353.501,"body":"say we don't understand how priorities"},{"startTime":1353.501,"endTime":1358.551,"body":"are done You know, we we don't understand"},{"startTime":1353.501,"endTime":1358.551,"body":"like what when things are going to get"},{"startTime":1358.551,"endTime":1361.881,"body":"committed to like what what what the what"},{"startTime":1358.551,"endTime":1361.881,"body":"the process looks like probably because"},{"startTime":1361.911,"endTime":1365.591,"body":"like The product manager at that point"},{"startTime":1361.911,"endTime":1365.591,"body":"has not like gotten their arms around"},{"startTime":1365.621,"endTime":1369.881,"body":"all of the proper stakeholders To, I,"},{"startTime":1365.621,"endTime":1369.881,"body":"there's a, there's a few little, little,"},{"startTime":1369.891,"endTime":1372.691,"body":"little, little, little, little threads."},{"startTime":1373.211,"endTime":1375.211,"body":"Uh, things that you will"},{"startTime":1373.211,"endTime":1375.211,"body":"hear in the organization."},{"startTime":1375.381,"endTime":1379.051,"body":"Oh, well, we, we never get back to"},{"startTime":1375.381,"endTime":1379.051,"body":"things that we say we'll do later."},{"startTime":1379.781,"endTime":1381.701,"body":"A few little threads like"},{"startTime":1379.781,"endTime":1381.701,"body":"that, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1381.701,"endTime":1384.791,"body":"Oh, I, I never know where"},{"startTime":1381.701,"endTime":1384.791,"body":"things are at in the roadmap."},{"startTime":1385.371,"endTime":1388.251,"body":"You know, once they tell me that it"},{"startTime":1385.371,"endTime":1388.251,"body":"won't be done, in the next quarter."},{"startTime":1388.731,"endTime":1389.021,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1389.481,"endTime":1393.161,"body":"There's a few little things like"},{"startTime":1389.481,"endTime":1393.161,"body":"that, that, that could be solved if,"},{"startTime":1393.211,"endTime":1395.791,"body":"if the product manager was focused."},{"startTime":1395.991,"endTime":1397.151,"body":"One product, one team."},{"startTime":1397.451,"endTime":1399.551,"body":"All that stuff would be way more clear."},{"startTime":1399.961,"endTime":1401.401,"body":"Is it a failing of product?"},{"startTime":1401.641,"endTime":1402.871,"body":"I think it's a failing of everybody."},{"startTime":1402.871,"endTime":1404.841,"body":"Honestly, this is a product"},{"startTime":1402.871,"endTime":1404.841,"body":"of the organization."},{"startTime":1404.851,"endTime":1406.031,"body":"Everybody, this is the system."},{"startTime":1406.031,"endTime":1406.471,"body":"It's a problem."},{"startTime":1406.471,"endTime":1408.551,"body":"It's a, it's a failing of the system."},{"startTime":1409.011,"endTime":1409.651,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1409.721,"endTime":1411.361,"body":"This is definitely a"},{"startTime":1409.721,"endTime":1411.361,"body":"failure of the system."},{"startTime":1411.611,"endTime":1414.441,"body":"The focus, like the, the, the"},{"startTime":1411.611,"endTime":1414.441,"body":"focus and the quality, like"},{"startTime":1414.461,"endTime":1417.161,"body":"everything kind of that we talked"},{"startTime":1414.461,"endTime":1417.161,"body":"about in this, in this topic, the."},{"startTime":1417.461,"endTime":1421.041,"body":"What I mean, what I mean by focus and"},{"startTime":1417.461,"endTime":1421.041,"body":"quality, I mean, focus and quality of"},{"startTime":1421.051,"endTime":1426.431,"body":"the product managers, output and also,"},{"startTime":1421.051,"endTime":1426.431,"body":"I mean, I say product manager, but it"},{"startTime":1426.431,"endTime":1427.931,"body":"also could be the scrum master as well."},{"startTime":1428.081,"endTime":1431.531,"body":"If you have a scrum master and they're"},{"startTime":1428.081,"endTime":1431.531,"body":"split across four teams, can you really"},{"startTime":1431.531,"endTime":1435.221,"body":"hold the scrum master accountable that"},{"startTime":1431.531,"endTime":1435.221,"body":"the organization is not moving forward"},{"startTime":1435.291,"endTime":1437.691,"body":"on, an organizational design roadmap?"},{"startTime":1438.321,"endTime":1441.461,"body":"Because you have one person trying"},{"startTime":1438.321,"endTime":1441.461,"body":"to move that roadmap forward."},{"startTime":1442.151,"endTime":1446.211,"body":"You basically got, one person"},{"startTime":1442.151,"endTime":1446.211,"body":"trying to scurry up four"},{"startTime":1446.211,"endTime":1447.601,"body":"chickens that are running around."},{"startTime":1447.601,"endTime":1448.976,"body":"I mean, they can only..."},{"startTime":1449.036,"endTime":1450.136,"body":"Best wrangle one."},{"startTime":1450.266,"endTime":1450.636,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1451.016,"endTime":1451.416,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1451.846,"endTime":1457.456,"body":"And we haven't even talked yet about"},{"startTime":1451.846,"endTime":1457.456,"body":"the complexity of the product itself."},{"startTime":1458.406,"endTime":1461.876,"body":"Meaning if you're like, if you're, if"},{"startTime":1458.406,"endTime":1461.876,"body":"you're a, if you're a product manager"},{"startTime":1461.966,"endTime":1467.806,"body":"and you have one team and that team is"},{"startTime":1461.966,"endTime":1467.806,"body":"like, you've been hired to launch a new"},{"startTime":1467.826,"endTime":1470.981,"body":"product, ground up completely new product."},{"startTime":1471.911,"endTime":1475.881,"body":"Um, versus you're taking over this"},{"startTime":1471.911,"endTime":1475.881,"body":"legacy product with all this legacy code."},{"startTime":1475.881,"endTime":1478.551,"body":"And, I mean, you're, you're basically"},{"startTime":1475.881,"endTime":1478.551,"body":"told like, well, just keep it"},{"startTime":1478.551,"endTime":1481.151,"body":"running and you know, everyone will"},{"startTime":1478.551,"endTime":1481.151,"body":"be happy as long as it's basically"},{"startTime":1481.151,"endTime":1482.861,"body":"running and, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1482.871,"endTime":1485.561,"body":"And then you, you got this legacy"},{"startTime":1482.871,"endTime":1485.561,"body":"pro or maybe you've been a product"},{"startTime":1485.561,"endTime":1486.651,"body":"manager at the organization."},{"startTime":1487.131,"endTime":1492.151,"body":"And I can easily see someone listening to"},{"startTime":1487.131,"endTime":1492.151,"body":"this podcast is in this exact position."},{"startTime":1493.101,"endTime":1497.191,"body":"You, you were a developer or a QA or"},{"startTime":1493.101,"endTime":1497.191,"body":"somebody in your organization and then"},{"startTime":1497.191,"endTime":1500.411,"body":"you became a product manager and they gave"},{"startTime":1497.191,"endTime":1500.411,"body":"you the product that you used to work on."},{"startTime":1501.321,"endTime":1504.411,"body":"And you worked for several"},{"startTime":1501.321,"endTime":1504.411,"body":"years, you did a good job."},{"startTime":1504.696,"endTime":1507.356,"body":"The product is kind of in decline"},{"startTime":1504.696,"endTime":1507.356,"body":"that kind of moved it over here."},{"startTime":1507.356,"endTime":1510.326,"body":"They're not really doing a lot of new"},{"startTime":1507.356,"endTime":1510.326,"body":"development, but then, but then they see"},{"startTime":1510.326,"endTime":1513.456,"body":"since, since you're declining and rolling"},{"startTime":1510.326,"endTime":1513.456,"body":"people off and not rolling people back"},{"startTime":1513.456,"endTime":1515.106,"body":"onto your program, that's the decline."},{"startTime":1515.356,"endTime":1518.226,"body":"They're like, Oh, I think"},{"startTime":1515.356,"endTime":1518.226,"body":"you have a little extra time."},{"startTime":1518.366,"endTime":1519.746,"body":"Your, your product is in decline."},{"startTime":1519.866,"endTime":1521.066,"body":"We're going to give you this new product."},{"startTime":1521.216,"endTime":1524.886,"body":"So now you're dealing with this, this"},{"startTime":1521.216,"endTime":1524.886,"body":"product that's in, it's, it's, it's kind"},{"startTime":1524.886,"endTime":1526.516,"body":"of being spun down slowly over time."},{"startTime":1526.676,"endTime":1528.526,"body":"And also this brand new product over here."},{"startTime":1529.151,"endTime":1530.941,"body":"Where do you think you're going"},{"startTime":1529.151,"endTime":1530.941,"body":"to spend most of your time?"},{"startTime":1531.151,"endTime":1535.571,"body":"This is like, this is like, you're trying"},{"startTime":1531.151,"endTime":1535.571,"body":"to do CPR and give birth at the same time."},{"startTime":1535.881,"endTime":1536.641,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1537.066,"endTime":1539.006,"body":"But you know, but like,"},{"startTime":1537.066,"endTime":1539.006,"body":"but I've seen that."},{"startTime":1539.046,"endTime":1539.926,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1539.926,"endTime":1540.236,"body":"I've seen it too."},{"startTime":1540.736,"endTime":1541.456,"body":"I've been there."},{"startTime":1541.496,"endTime":1544.006,"body":"Yeah, definitely seen that."},{"startTime":1544.036,"endTime":1546.406,"body":"This is sometimes people are"},{"startTime":1544.036,"endTime":1546.406,"body":"a victim of their own success."},{"startTime":1546.416,"endTime":1549.146,"body":"So that in that scenario, right, you"},{"startTime":1546.416,"endTime":1549.146,"body":"were a developer, you did a great"},{"startTime":1549.146,"endTime":1552.736,"body":"job, and now you're just nurturing"},{"startTime":1549.146,"endTime":1552.736,"body":"this product through the tail end"},{"startTime":1552.736,"endTime":1555.036,"body":"of the, the product life cycle."},{"startTime":1555.096,"endTime":1557.466,"body":"And then people say, you're great."},{"startTime":1557.656,"endTime":1559.396,"body":"You know, here, go do this one."},{"startTime":1559.416,"endTime":1560.886,"body":"Oh, by the way, you"},{"startTime":1559.416,"endTime":1560.886,"body":"keep the other job too."},{"startTime":1561.186,"endTime":1564.406,"body":"And by the way, there's a no"},{"startTime":1561.186,"endTime":1564.406,"body":"extra pay for you know, that's it."},{"startTime":1564.456,"endTime":1565.196,"body":"That's the kicker."},{"startTime":1565.246,"endTime":1567.936,"body":"No, just yeah, we just"},{"startTime":1565.246,"endTime":1567.936,"body":"realized we're paying you."},{"startTime":1568.036,"endTime":1568.986,"body":"We're cutting that down."},{"startTime":1568.996,"endTime":1569.366,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1569.666,"endTime":1570.746,"body":"No, so you got to work Sundays as well."},{"startTime":1571.346,"endTime":1572.606,"body":"Yeah, just for good measure."},{"startTime":1572.736,"endTime":1575.536,"body":"But product complexity, though, to come"},{"startTime":1572.736,"endTime":1575.536,"body":"back to that point, I mean, that that"},{"startTime":1575.576,"endTime":1581.716,"body":"really plays into it, especially if"},{"startTime":1575.576,"endTime":1581.716,"body":"you're dealing with You know, a component"},{"startTime":1581.776,"endTime":1585.976,"body":"of the product that the overall product"},{"startTime":1581.776,"endTime":1585.976,"body":"is so complex that you don't have your"},{"startTime":1585.976,"endTime":1590.076,"body":"arms around the whole thing But you have"},{"startTime":1585.976,"endTime":1590.076,"body":"your arms around just a little sliver"},{"startTime":1590.076,"endTime":1593.836,"body":"of it It's critical all these slivers"},{"startTime":1590.076,"endTime":1593.836,"body":"are critical because they combine and"},{"startTime":1593.836,"endTime":1597.626,"body":"magically, you know Come up with this"},{"startTime":1593.836,"endTime":1597.626,"body":"product if you're gonna have more than"},{"startTime":1597.626,"endTime":1603.011,"body":"one Using a technical term here, more"},{"startTime":1597.626,"endTime":1603.011,"body":"than one sliver, that, that you're"},{"startTime":1603.021,"endTime":1608.061,"body":"trying to get developed with multiple"},{"startTime":1603.021,"endTime":1608.061,"body":"teams, you could look, you do run the"},{"startTime":1608.061,"endTime":1612.361,"body":"risk of burnout if you're just going to"},{"startTime":1608.061,"endTime":1612.361,"body":"try your best and run, run, run, run."},{"startTime":1612.816,"endTime":1615.336,"body":"It's only so much running"},{"startTime":1612.816,"endTime":1615.336,"body":"you can do, trying to hold up"},{"startTime":1615.336,"endTime":1616.526,"body":"your shorts at the same time."},{"startTime":1616.926,"endTime":1617.856,"body":"Running up that hill."},{"startTime":1618.076,"endTime":1618.606,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1618.646,"endTime":1619.276,"body":"Here I go."},{"startTime":1619.396,"endTime":1620.056,"body":"Kate Bush."},{"startTime":1620.326,"endTime":1620.966,"body":"Oh man."},{"startTime":1620.966,"endTime":1621.606,"body":"Nice reference."},{"startTime":1621.716,"endTime":1624.746,"body":"the thing that stinks about this category,"},{"startTime":1621.716,"endTime":1624.746,"body":"like product complexity, I can easily"},{"startTime":1624.746,"endTime":1629.266,"body":"see, especially if you're a new PM, your"},{"startTime":1624.746,"endTime":1629.266,"body":"new PM, you come in, you have a couple"},{"startTime":1629.276,"endTime":1635.016,"body":"of teams and your product is heavy, heavy"},{"startTime":1629.276,"endTime":1635.016,"body":"integration, like very heavily relies on"},{"startTime":1635.036,"endTime":1639.076,"body":"other pieces of other products or other"},{"startTime":1635.036,"endTime":1639.076,"body":"teams or maybe you, maybe you have like a"},{"startTime":1639.086,"endTime":1643.786,"body":"product suite where like you, your segment"},{"startTime":1639.086,"endTime":1643.786,"body":"of the product does nothing by itself."},{"startTime":1644.016,"endTime":1647.246,"body":"Like I think of like a large companies"},{"startTime":1644.016,"endTime":1647.246,"body":"like Facebook and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1647.246,"endTime":1652.726,"body":"We have like a, a PM for engagement and"},{"startTime":1647.246,"endTime":1652.726,"body":"a PM for timelines and a PM for whatever."},{"startTime":1653.486,"endTime":1657.316,"body":"You don't even have the whole"},{"startTime":1653.486,"endTime":1657.316,"body":"product as your quote product."},{"startTime":1657.326,"endTime":1660.446,"body":"You just have a segment of features."},{"startTime":1660.956,"endTime":1663.376,"body":"You know, they've cut away a"},{"startTime":1660.956,"endTime":1663.376,"body":"couple of features and said,"},{"startTime":1663.646,"endTime":1664.756,"body":"Hey, this is your domain."},{"startTime":1665.376,"endTime":1670.166,"body":"And, that's it, so the product"},{"startTime":1665.376,"endTime":1670.166,"body":"is extremely complex and you may"},{"startTime":1670.166,"endTime":1672.346,"body":"never, I mean, you may work there"},{"startTime":1670.166,"endTime":1672.346,"body":"for years and not understand."},{"startTime":1672.976,"endTime":1676.766,"body":"Every little corner of the of"},{"startTime":1672.976,"endTime":1676.766,"body":"the product that that's that's"},{"startTime":1676.766,"endTime":1678.246,"body":"a very reasonable assumption."},{"startTime":1678.546,"endTime":1679.816,"body":"Yeah, I completely agree with you."},{"startTime":1679.866,"endTime":1683.726,"body":"I was just thinking about analogy like"},{"startTime":1679.866,"endTime":1683.726,"body":"maybe, let's say you're working on"},{"startTime":1683.726,"endTime":1685.896,"body":"something like the office suite, right?"},{"startTime":1685.916,"endTime":1692.176,"body":"But your your team is developing not"},{"startTime":1685.916,"endTime":1692.176,"body":"just Microsoft Word or Excel, but they're"},{"startTime":1692.186,"endTime":1695.696,"body":"developing the ribbon that every product"},{"startTime":1692.186,"endTime":1695.696,"body":"is going to use in the suite, right?"},{"startTime":1695.746,"endTime":1697.636,"body":"You got to talk to all of these teams."},{"startTime":1697.936,"endTime":1702.196,"body":"But you may also on top of that be"},{"startTime":1697.936,"endTime":1702.196,"body":"responsible for a team that's developing"},{"startTime":1702.196,"endTime":1704.476,"body":"one of those products in the suite."},{"startTime":1704.636,"endTime":1706.316,"body":"Now, do you have too much, right?"},{"startTime":1706.366,"endTime":1707.666,"body":"That that's what we're talking about."},{"startTime":1708.526,"endTime":1712.646,"body":"If you're a product manager or a Scrum"},{"startTime":1708.526,"endTime":1712.646,"body":"Master listening to this, my suggestion"},{"startTime":1712.646,"endTime":1717.546,"body":"here is that you make the first move"},{"startTime":1712.646,"endTime":1717.546,"body":"to say that, Hey, I'm doing too much."},{"startTime":1718.496,"endTime":1722.706,"body":"I feel I'm doing too much bringing"},{"startTime":1718.496,"endTime":1722.706,"body":"up to whoever, whoever, I guess"},{"startTime":1722.726,"endTime":1724.366,"body":"bring up to whoever you're."},{"startTime":1724.666,"endTime":1727.246,"body":"I don't even know, is it"},{"startTime":1724.666,"endTime":1727.246,"body":"like a reporting person?"},{"startTime":1727.266,"endTime":1727.646,"body":"I don't know who..."},{"startTime":1727.656,"endTime":1728.746,"body":"Whoever your overlord is."},{"startTime":1728.746,"endTime":1729.996,"body":"Yeah, whoever your overlord is, yeah."},{"startTime":1730.016,"endTime":1734.166,"body":"My advice is, is, yes, definitely"},{"startTime":1730.016,"endTime":1734.166,"body":"be the first person to speak"},{"startTime":1734.166,"endTime":1737.306,"body":"up, but go in armed with data."},{"startTime":1737.726,"endTime":1739.796,"body":"Don't just go and say, I'm overworked."},{"startTime":1739.866,"endTime":1741.236,"body":"It's like, what do you do all day?"},{"startTime":1741.286,"endTime":1741.926,"body":"They don't know."},{"startTime":1742.156,"endTime":1744.316,"body":"If you have evidence, you can say,"},{"startTime":1742.156,"endTime":1744.316,"body":"this is the amount of time I'm"},{"startTime":1744.316,"endTime":1745.516,"body":"spending here, here, and here."},{"startTime":1745.936,"endTime":1747.896,"body":"You know, and I'm having"},{"startTime":1745.936,"endTime":1747.896,"body":"to work these extra hours."},{"startTime":1747.946,"endTime":1750.806,"body":"And on top of that, I'm being"},{"startTime":1747.946,"endTime":1750.806,"body":"told to take on this other team."},{"startTime":1750.936,"endTime":1751.946,"body":"It's just not feasible."},{"startTime":1752.046,"endTime":1755.226,"body":"It's like double, triple"},{"startTime":1752.046,"endTime":1755.226,"body":"for scrum masters."},{"startTime":1755.226,"endTime":1759.486,"body":"Like at least in product, I could"},{"startTime":1755.226,"endTime":1759.486,"body":"say, Hey, I I'm, I'm going to"},{"startTime":1759.486,"endTime":1763.376,"body":"all these refinements and I'm"},{"startTime":1759.486,"endTime":1763.376,"body":"generating all these stories."},{"startTime":1763.636,"endTime":1767.266,"body":"And I'm meeting with all these users"},{"startTime":1763.636,"endTime":1767.266,"body":"and I'm, I'm going to these demos and"},{"startTime":1767.266,"endTime":1769.606,"body":"I'm, I'm, all these tactical things."},{"startTime":1769.956,"endTime":1775.416,"body":"I don't have time to work on strategy"},{"startTime":1769.956,"endTime":1775.416,"body":"and I don't have time to work on, help"},{"startTime":1775.421,"endTime":1777.696,"body":"marketing figure out, or pricing or, yeah."},{"startTime":1777.696,"endTime":1782.496,"body":"Or pri or, to probe new markets or to,"},{"startTime":1777.696,"endTime":1782.496,"body":"to, to elevate our strategy basically."},{"startTime":1782.526,"endTime":1782.706,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1783.216,"endTime":1785.496,"body":"I don't have time to"},{"startTime":1783.216,"endTime":1785.496,"body":"do all of these things."},{"startTime":1785.796,"endTime":1792.136,"body":"If you're a scrum master, and you are,"},{"startTime":1785.796,"endTime":1792.136,"body":"you are trying to move the organization"},{"startTime":1792.136,"endTime":1796.976,"body":"to the future, I mean, it helps"},{"startTime":1792.136,"endTime":1796.976,"body":"having a vision of what that future"},{"startTime":1797.006,"endTime":1800.736,"body":"looks like having that visualized"},{"startTime":1797.006,"endTime":1800.736,"body":"somewhere, so there's some things that"},{"startTime":1800.746,"endTime":1802.136,"body":"that product doesn't necessarily do."},{"startTime":1802.176,"endTime":1803.216,"body":"Well, actually, that's not true."},{"startTime":1803.806,"endTime":1804.826,"body":"Product does do these things."},{"startTime":1804.836,"endTime":1807.876,"body":"They do project a vision for the future."},{"startTime":1808.156,"endTime":1812.116,"body":"Product product does absolutely so if"},{"startTime":1808.156,"endTime":1812.116,"body":"you if you find that you just don't have"},{"startTime":1812.116,"endTime":1818.236,"body":"time in product to to even Have your"},{"startTime":1812.116,"endTime":1818.236,"body":"mind in the headspace of the future."},{"startTime":1819.056,"endTime":1822.146,"body":"I think a scrum master could relate"},{"startTime":1819.056,"endTime":1822.146,"body":"to that Yeah, I don't I don't know"},{"startTime":1822.146,"endTime":1825.496,"body":"what the future of this organization"},{"startTime":1822.146,"endTime":1825.496,"body":"looks like because I'm so busy putting"},{"startTime":1825.496,"endTime":1829.016,"body":"out fires putting out fires meaning"},{"startTime":1825.496,"endTime":1829.016,"body":"like for a scrum master putting out"},{"startTime":1829.016,"endTime":1833.776,"body":"fires the equivalent of that would be"},{"startTime":1829.016,"endTime":1833.776,"body":"Facilitating like getting over blockers"},{"startTime":1833.776,"endTime":1838.241,"body":"and stuff like that and helping teams"},{"startTime":1833.776,"endTime":1838.241,"body":"work with one another and collaborate"},{"startTime":1838.241,"endTime":1839.541,"body":"with one another and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1839.931,"endTime":1843.811,"body":"Yeah, I, I fully agree with the"},{"startTime":1839.931,"endTime":1843.811,"body":"road map, argument you make, because"},{"startTime":1843.811,"endTime":1847.601,"body":"otherwise you run the risk of"},{"startTime":1843.811,"endTime":1847.601,"body":"stagnating in this muddle through mode."},{"startTime":1847.901,"endTime":1848.621,"body":"This is what we do."},{"startTime":1849.186,"endTime":1849.576,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1849.576,"endTime":1852.846,"body":"And you have no idea that you"},{"startTime":1849.576,"endTime":1852.846,"body":"can even, there's even right a"},{"startTime":1852.846,"endTime":1854.496,"body":"road ahead that you can improve."},{"startTime":1854.886,"endTime":1857.576,"body":"So having a roadmap for that helps."},{"startTime":1857.576,"endTime":1857.936,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1858.021,"endTime":1860.706,"body":", you can see are you evolving"},{"startTime":1858.021,"endTime":1860.706,"body":"or are you devolving, right?"},{"startTime":1861.006,"endTime":1861.096,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1861.636,"endTime":1864.876,"body":". But again, I've not seen Scrum"},{"startTime":1861.636,"endTime":1864.876,"body":"Masters do that all that much"},{"startTime":1864.876,"endTime":1868.196,"body":"because they're just being told,"},{"startTime":1864.876,"endTime":1868.196,"body":"Hey, go handle this, this team."},{"startTime":1868.196,"endTime":1868.206,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1868.506,"endTime":1868.726,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1868.736,"endTime":1870.436,"body":"You only work half an hour a day."},{"startTime":1870.736,"endTime":1872.346,"body":"We don't know what you"},{"startTime":1870.736,"endTime":1872.346,"body":"do after the standup."},{"startTime":1872.576,"endTime":1873.456,"body":"That must be nice."},{"startTime":1873.516,"endTime":1873.996,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1874.086,"endTime":1874.706,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1874.756,"endTime":1878.576,"body":"Well, listen, if you only work a half"},{"startTime":1874.756,"endTime":1878.576,"body":"hour a day and you're a scrum master,"},{"startTime":1878.596,"endTime":1881.696,"body":"I would appreciate you letting me know"},{"startTime":1878.596,"endTime":1881.696,"body":"where you work in the comments so that"},{"startTime":1881.736,"endTime":1883.586,"body":"I can come get a job as a scrum master."},{"startTime":1883.886,"endTime":1885.796,"body":"I don't think there's going to"},{"startTime":1883.886,"endTime":1885.796,"body":"be a single comment on that."},{"startTime":1886.006,"endTime":1887.526,"body":"Oh, there won't be any comment on that."},{"startTime":1887.693,"endTime":1892.513,"body":"if you're one of those people though,"},{"startTime":1887.693,"endTime":1892.513,"body":"who fuels the pain, of what we're"},{"startTime":1892.513,"endTime":1893.833,"body":"talking about here, let us know."},{"startTime":1894.443,"endTime":1897.273,"body":"Let us know what your strategy has"},{"startTime":1894.443,"endTime":1897.273,"body":"been, how it's been working for you."},{"startTime":1897.573,"endTime":1899.913,"body":"And, yeah, don't forget"},{"startTime":1897.573,"endTime":1899.913,"body":"to like, and subscribe."},{"startTime":1900.213,"endTime":1900.383,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1900.383,"endTime":1901.393,"body":"Where are my other thumbs?"},{"startTime":1901.803,"endTime":1904.183,"body":"Oh, I only have two thumbs."},{"startTime":1904.503,"endTime":1905.823,"body":"I don't know why I said my other thumbs."}]}