{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":1.91,"body":"Our episode today is about offshoring."},{"startTime":1.96,"endTime":3.72,"body":", do you deal with"},{"startTime":1.96,"endTime":3.72,"body":"offshoring in your company?"},{"startTime":3.82,"endTime":5.66,"body":"I think it's a normal part"},{"startTime":3.82,"endTime":5.66,"body":"of software development."},{"startTime":5.76,"endTime":8.64,"body":"If you're going into software"},{"startTime":5.76,"endTime":8.64,"body":"development in any way, shape, or form,"},{"startTime":8.64,"endTime":9.66,"body":"you're going to deal with offshoring."},{"startTime":10.0,"endTime":10.18,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":10.3,"endTime":12.24,"body":"So, that's what this episode is all about."},{"startTime":12.48,"endTime":15.379,"body":"We're going to talk about the"},{"startTime":12.48,"endTime":15.379,"body":"pros and cons of offshoring."},{"startTime":15.379,"endTime":16.54,"body":"We're going to talk"},{"startTime":15.379,"endTime":16.54,"body":"through our experiences."},{"startTime":16.759,"endTime":20.299,"body":"I don't know if there's going to be a"},{"startTime":16.759,"endTime":20.299,"body":"lot of, what the book says on this one."},{"startTime":20.34,"endTime":21.649,"body":"I don't think there is a book on this one."},{"startTime":22.455,"endTime":24.225,"body":"I'm sure there's a book,"},{"startTime":22.455,"endTime":24.225,"body":"somebody's written something,"},{"startTime":24.225,"endTime":25.565,"body":"but we're not gonna argue."},{"startTime":25.565,"endTime":26.405,"body":"Maybe we should buy it."},{"startTime":26.405,"endTime":27.005,"body":"Buy our book."},{"startTime":27.065,"endTime":27.755,"body":"Yeah, buy our book."},{"startTime":27.785,"endTime":28.235,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":28.265,"endTime":28.355,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":28.455,"endTime":30.885,"body":"So let's, let's dive into this, right?"},{"startTime":30.885,"endTime":35.945,"body":"Everybody, I'm sure has heard of it at"},{"startTime":30.885,"endTime":35.945,"body":"least, or if not have experienced it off."},{"startTime":35.95,"endTime":36.995,"body":"Why offshore offshoring?"},{"startTime":37.295,"endTime":38.855,"body":"I mean, let's get the easy stuff out."},{"startTime":38.855,"endTime":42.955,"body":"Let's get the low hanging fruit out"},{"startTime":38.855,"endTime":42.955,"body":"of the way you ever heard of the loom."},{"startTime":42.965,"endTime":43.655,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":43.685,"endTime":43.914,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":44.205,"endTime":46.114,"body":"That's a phrase that I"},{"startTime":44.205,"endTime":46.114,"body":"don't hear too often."},{"startTime":46.125,"endTime":46.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":46.455,"endTime":47.825,"body":"Low hanging, low hanging fruit,"},{"startTime":48.724,"endTime":52.765,"body":"cost savings, having employees"},{"startTime":48.724,"endTime":52.765,"body":"in house is high costs."},{"startTime":53.1,"endTime":59.398,"body":"And, sending your employees to the,"},{"startTime":53.1,"endTime":59.398,"body":"Spice Spice Mines of Kessel is low cost."},{"startTime":59.415,"endTime":60.238,"body":"that's what I..."},{"startTime":60.378,"endTime":62.778,"body":"That, that's typically where"},{"startTime":60.378,"endTime":62.778,"body":"most people start, right?"},{"startTime":62.778,"endTime":63.288,"body":"Typically."},{"startTime":63.298,"endTime":65.838,"body":"It's cheaper to outsource your work."},{"startTime":65.838,"endTime":66.088,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":66.308,"endTime":68.068,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":68.558,"endTime":71.938,"body":"But then, let's, offshoring"},{"startTime":68.558,"endTime":71.938,"body":"has been around for a while."},{"startTime":72.908,"endTime":73.668,"body":"That's nothing new."},{"startTime":73.838,"endTime":79.958,"body":"So has it still proved out that it"},{"startTime":73.838,"endTime":79.958,"body":"is proven, proven, proven, that it"},{"startTime":79.958,"endTime":86.108,"body":"is cheaper today or, are we looking"},{"startTime":79.958,"endTime":86.108,"body":"at, diminishing returns here?"},{"startTime":86.278,"endTime":90.418,"body":"Well, we, we, we did an exhaustive,"},{"startTime":86.278,"endTime":90.418,"body":"30 second search of the internet."},{"startTime":90.798,"endTime":91.518,"body":"Oh, is it that long?"},{"startTime":91.548,"endTime":91.878,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":91.998,"endTime":92.398,"body":"I'm tired."},{"startTime":92.398,"endTime":93.128,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":93.138,"endTime":100.908,"body":"And, we found a code submit that"},{"startTime":93.138,"endTime":100.908,"body":"I, Oh, the most trusted source."},{"startTime":101.303,"endTime":102.573,"body":"in sports."},{"startTime":103.363,"endTime":103.803,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":104.533,"endTime":106.463,"body":"And so it gives the average salary."},{"startTime":106.603,"endTime":110.473,"body":"I think these I think these average"},{"startTime":106.603,"endTime":110.473,"body":"salaries of software engineers is"},{"startTime":110.543,"endTime":113.723,"body":"I think this list is a bit dated."},{"startTime":113.723,"endTime":116.213,"body":"Yeah, the numbers suggest that I think so."},{"startTime":116.403,"endTime":120.368,"body":"But But I mean, it does like if you"},{"startTime":116.403,"endTime":120.368,"body":"compare them to each other, right?"},{"startTime":120.818,"endTime":123.278,"body":"I think they'll probably"},{"startTime":120.818,"endTime":123.278,"body":"be close to normal."},{"startTime":123.448,"endTime":125.228,"body":"It gives, a high list of numbers."},{"startTime":125.458,"endTime":128.658,"body":"And at the very bottom of the list,"},{"startTime":125.458,"endTime":128.658,"body":"it gives a low end of the numbers."},{"startTime":128.698,"endTime":131.818,"body":"So at the high end of the numbers"},{"startTime":128.698,"endTime":131.818,"body":"are the United States, Switzerland,"},{"startTime":131.828,"endTime":133.198,"body":"Israel, Denmark, Canada."},{"startTime":133.468,"endTime":134.488,"body":"Now those are the top five."},{"startTime":134.853,"endTime":139.333,"body":"At between 110 all the way down"},{"startTime":134.853,"endTime":139.333,"body":"to 61 000 i'm assuming these"},{"startTime":139.333,"endTime":140.663,"body":"are adjusted for US Dollars."},{"startTime":140.733,"endTime":144.933,"body":"Yeah, they are and we should mention"},{"startTime":140.733,"endTime":144.933,"body":"that these are average average."},{"startTime":144.933,"endTime":146.903,"body":"Yeah, right Which is interesting."},{"startTime":146.923,"endTime":154.273,"body":"Anyway, like if you go further down to the"},{"startTime":146.923,"endTime":154.273,"body":"low end of the spectrum here, It goes low."},{"startTime":154.283,"endTime":159.413,"body":"Yeah, it goes pretty low with the lowest,"},{"startTime":154.283,"endTime":159.413,"body":"I mean the bottom five are South Africa,"},{"startTime":159.433,"endTime":161.653,"body":"Brazil, Philippines, India, and Nigeria."},{"startTime":161.913,"endTime":162.823,"body":"Which I didn't expect."},{"startTime":164.163,"endTime":165.953,"body":"You know, it's kind of surprising to me."},{"startTime":169.063,"endTime":173.643,"body":"The low end is, is, the low end is"},{"startTime":169.063,"endTime":173.643,"body":"lower than I expected it would be."},{"startTime":173.683,"endTime":174.143,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":174.223,"endTime":176.253,"body":"You know, compared to where we start."},{"startTime":176.343,"endTime":178.693,"body":"So it's 110 and the low"},{"startTime":176.343,"endTime":178.693,"body":"end is like 7 something."},{"startTime":178.703,"endTime":178.873,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":179.258,"endTime":181.248,"body":"Yeah, which I didn't"},{"startTime":179.258,"endTime":181.248,"body":"expect to be that low."},{"startTime":181.848,"endTime":182.848,"body":"I don't even know what I expected."},{"startTime":182.858,"endTime":185.808,"body":"It wasn't that low in my mind,"},{"startTime":182.858,"endTime":185.808,"body":"but that's what they're saying."},{"startTime":185.808,"endTime":186.738,"body":"So, okay, we'll go with that."},{"startTime":186.758,"endTime":188.618,"body":"These are, I mean, these"},{"startTime":186.758,"endTime":188.618,"body":"are just pure costs."},{"startTime":188.668,"endTime":193.708,"body":"Like in the pure cost is nothing about,"},{"startTime":188.668,"endTime":193.708,"body":"the tactical expertise of the, of the"},{"startTime":193.708,"endTime":198.608,"body":"people and nothing about the, the, the"},{"startTime":193.708,"endTime":198.608,"body":"communication skill and a million other"},{"startTime":198.608,"endTime":199.568,"body":"things that we're going to go into."},{"startTime":199.668,"endTime":203.698,"body":"So just averages, I kind of, I kind"},{"startTime":199.668,"endTime":203.698,"body":"of feel the cost is, is, what normally"},{"startTime":203.698,"endTime":209.968,"body":"people will point out to kind of defend"},{"startTime":203.698,"endTime":209.968,"body":"offshoring pure cost, but like pure costs"},{"startTime":209.968,"endTime":216.178,"body":"is like, it's the tiniest fraction of"},{"startTime":209.968,"endTime":216.178,"body":"what you can control in this category."},{"startTime":216.548,"endTime":219.428,"body":"What, what you saw on that"},{"startTime":216.548,"endTime":219.428,"body":"list, it would be the cost of"},{"startTime":219.478,"endTime":220.918,"body":"an employee in that country."},{"startTime":221.108,"endTime":224.518,"body":"It's not going through a staffing firm"},{"startTime":221.108,"endTime":224.518,"body":"or a contract firm or whatever because"},{"startTime":224.518,"endTime":227.888,"body":"a contract firm has to make money."},{"startTime":228.073,"endTime":231.353,"body":"And they're going to charge, like"},{"startTime":228.073,"endTime":231.353,"body":"in my experience, a contract firm is"},{"startTime":231.353,"endTime":232.953,"body":"going to charge a minimum of a 50%."},{"startTime":232.993,"endTime":236.553,"body":"50% meaning 100%, 100% of what you pay."},{"startTime":236.883,"endTime":239.743,"body":"They're going to charge a"},{"startTime":236.883,"endTime":239.743,"body":"minimum of 50% up charge."},{"startTime":239.993,"endTime":244.298,"body":"So if you're paying 25, 000 for a"},{"startTime":239.993,"endTime":244.298,"body":"developer in Ukraine or somewhere."},{"startTime":245.538,"endTime":248.368,"body":"They're going to bill you for 50, 000."},{"startTime":248.368,"endTime":248.558,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":248.698,"endTime":252.188,"body":"And that, that is assuming they're"},{"startTime":248.698,"endTime":252.188,"body":"going with a 50% margin, which if you're"},{"startTime":252.218,"endTime":255.048,"body":"again, if you're in the recruiting"},{"startTime":252.218,"endTime":255.048,"body":"industry and you're listening to this"},{"startTime":255.048,"endTime":258.188,"body":"podcast, so I don't know how you found"},{"startTime":255.048,"endTime":258.188,"body":"us podcast, but thanks for finding us."},{"startTime":258.458,"endTime":262.608,"body":"But if you did find us and you disagree"},{"startTime":258.458,"endTime":262.608,"body":"with what I'm about to say, please comment"},{"startTime":263.648,"endTime":269.743,"body":"below, I've been told by recruiters"},{"startTime":263.648,"endTime":269.743,"body":"that a 50% margin, basically a hundred"},{"startTime":269.743,"endTime":275.533,"body":"percent, upcharge, the recruiting firm"},{"startTime":269.743,"endTime":275.533,"body":"is taking 50% and the candidate is"},{"startTime":275.543,"endTime":283.163,"body":"receiving 50% that is like the most skim"},{"startTime":275.543,"endTime":283.163,"body":"bare deal they are willing to get into"},{"startTime":283.423,"endTime":287.538,"body":"because there is very little profit from"},{"startTime":283.423,"endTime":287.538,"body":"what it takes to pay all the recruiters"},{"startTime":287.728,"endTime":290.148,"body":"and pay the cost of running their"},{"startTime":287.728,"endTime":290.148,"body":"business and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":290.338,"endTime":291.818,"body":"That's the minimum they can afford."},{"startTime":292.638,"endTime":293.658,"body":"Yeah, I concur with that."},{"startTime":294.198,"endTime":299.408,"body":"It is, I mean, I've seen as"},{"startTime":294.198,"endTime":299.408,"body":"high as 60, 65 in some cases."},{"startTime":300.168,"endTime":304.238,"body":"I've seen people paying three"},{"startTime":300.168,"endTime":304.238,"body":"times what it would cost to"},{"startTime":304.238,"endTime":306.238,"body":"hire a developer in house."},{"startTime":306.928,"endTime":314.068,"body":"To a contracted, and company"},{"startTime":306.928,"endTime":314.068,"body":"management, like feeling good about it."},{"startTime":314.428,"endTime":318.218,"body":"Believe it or not, because, because"},{"startTime":314.428,"endTime":318.218,"body":"they are capitalizing that labor."},{"startTime":318.523,"endTime":318.783,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":318.813,"endTime":322.633,"body":"And they think that because it's"},{"startTime":318.813,"endTime":322.633,"body":"capitalized and, they, they're, it"},{"startTime":322.673,"endTime":329.003,"body":"doesn't go on the budget that the employee"},{"startTime":322.673,"endTime":329.003,"body":"payroll comes from that they feel good"},{"startTime":329.003,"endTime":331.663,"body":"because they can spread it out and it"},{"startTime":329.003,"endTime":331.663,"body":"actually looks like a lower number."},{"startTime":331.673,"endTime":338.373,"body":"Anyway, the sticker shock cost of what"},{"startTime":331.673,"endTime":338.373,"body":"it costs to bring on an employee and"},{"startTime":338.373,"endTime":341.653,"body":"have them in house and work directly"},{"startTime":338.373,"endTime":341.653,"body":"for your company versus the offshore"},{"startTime":341.933,"endTime":346.903,"body":"costs, not including any hidden costs"},{"startTime":341.933,"endTime":346.903,"body":"that you pay, like I want to get past"},{"startTime":346.903,"endTime":349.173,"body":"what we're talking about now because I"},{"startTime":346.903,"endTime":349.173,"body":"want to get to all those hidden costs."},{"startTime":349.888,"endTime":354.547,"body":"Because the hidden costs they add up the"},{"startTime":349.888,"endTime":354.547,"body":"hidden costs certainly add up because"},{"startTime":354.587,"endTime":360.557,"body":"what like one of the hidden costs That"},{"startTime":354.587,"endTime":360.557,"body":"I can think of immediately is, quality"},{"startTime":360.557,"endTime":366.427,"body":"control with offshore developers, offshore"},{"startTime":360.557,"endTime":366.427,"body":"development teams, which means you're"},{"startTime":366.587,"endTime":372.227,"body":"like, you're, you're accepting that in"},{"startTime":366.587,"endTime":372.227,"body":"order to speed your development by going"},{"startTime":372.227,"endTime":374.017,"body":"with this team of offshore developers."},{"startTime":375.117,"endTime":376.127,"body":"You will have rework."},{"startTime":377.357,"endTime":381.907,"body":"This is the same in products"},{"startTime":377.357,"endTime":381.907,"body":"sometimes in order to speed to market."},{"startTime":382.087,"endTime":385.067,"body":"I accept that I will have to come"},{"startTime":382.087,"endTime":385.067,"body":"back and refactor sections of"},{"startTime":385.067,"endTime":389.827,"body":"the code to do a better job later"},{"startTime":385.067,"endTime":389.827,"body":"or to serve more users later."},{"startTime":390.607,"endTime":392.957,"body":"This is the same kind of deal it's"},{"startTime":390.607,"endTime":392.957,"body":"like, hey, we're, we're building"},{"startTime":392.957,"endTime":394.447,"body":"our teams offshore for now."},{"startTime":394.837,"endTime":397.757,"body":"They're going to turn in code"},{"startTime":394.837,"endTime":397.757,"body":"that I tell them to turn in and"},{"startTime":397.787,"endTime":400.487,"body":"they're going to do exactly what I"},{"startTime":397.787,"endTime":400.487,"body":"tell them to do and nothing more."},{"startTime":400.677,"endTime":401.057,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":401.257,"endTime":403.187,"body":"And even then sometimes"},{"startTime":401.257,"endTime":403.187,"body":"they may miss things."},{"startTime":403.594,"endTime":407.704,"body":"I am not certain about the individual"},{"startTime":403.594,"endTime":407.704,"body":"skills of every single person that"},{"startTime":407.704,"endTime":409.324,"body":"the contract firm is sending me."},{"startTime":409.854,"endTime":414.184,"body":"So they could be sending me people that"},{"startTime":409.854,"endTime":414.184,"body":"don't write unit tests, for example,"},{"startTime":414.184,"endTime":418.514,"body":"that don't understand, listen, we"},{"startTime":414.184,"endTime":418.514,"body":"talked about our own experiences."},{"startTime":418.514,"endTime":422.174,"body":"My experience is that, on paper,"},{"startTime":418.514,"endTime":422.174,"body":"these guys are rock stars."},{"startTime":422.444,"endTime":424.584,"body":"I mean, they've got all the"},{"startTime":422.444,"endTime":424.584,"body":"skills under the sun, right?"},{"startTime":425.104,"endTime":425.864,"body":"But then when you."},{"startTime":426.144,"endTime":431.344,"body":"When you actually see the quality that"},{"startTime":426.144,"endTime":431.344,"body":"comes from them, it sometimes, quite"},{"startTime":431.344,"endTime":433.184,"body":"often leaves a lot to be desired."},{"startTime":433.214,"endTime":437.434,"body":"So yeah, you do suffer this risk"},{"startTime":433.214,"endTime":437.434,"body":"of, suffering that, that cost of"},{"startTime":437.434,"endTime":441.874,"body":"quality, rework, I mean, not going to"},{"startTime":437.434,"endTime":441.874,"body":"go to market with that sub product."},{"startTime":442.184,"endTime":445.104,"body":"So now what happens is that"},{"startTime":442.184,"endTime":445.104,"body":"hidden cost to your point,"},{"startTime":445.124,"endTime":446.944,"body":"you've just, you've just spent."},{"startTime":447.169,"endTime":448.879,"body":"Time and a half or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":449.179,"endTime":451.169,"body":"Sometimes more than"},{"startTime":449.179,"endTime":451.169,"body":"that, sometimes double."},{"startTime":452.109,"endTime":454.639,"body":"So really, net, net,"},{"startTime":452.109,"endTime":454.639,"body":"are you further ahead?"},{"startTime":454.979,"endTime":459.299,"body":"Because remember, even if"},{"startTime":454.979,"endTime":459.299,"body":"you're financially, ahead."},{"startTime":459.634,"endTime":459.864,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":459.894,"endTime":463.264,"body":"Let's just assume that for the sake"},{"startTime":459.894,"endTime":463.264,"body":"of argument, you've lost time, right?"},{"startTime":463.344,"endTime":465.364,"body":"And that's an opportunity"},{"startTime":463.344,"endTime":465.364,"body":"cost right there."},{"startTime":465.505,"endTime":470.195,"body":"the problem with that as an opportunity"},{"startTime":465.505,"endTime":470.195,"body":"cost is that Typically companies have"},{"startTime":470.195,"endTime":475.999,"body":"no ability nor awareness to track"},{"startTime":470.195,"endTime":475.999,"body":"that  if you're engaging here, I'll"},{"startTime":475.999,"endTime":479.039,"body":"try to help, I'll try to be helpful"},{"startTime":475.999,"endTime":479.039,"body":"and not just bad mouth offshoring."},{"startTime":479.374,"endTime":483.934,"body":"If you're going with an offshore"},{"startTime":479.374,"endTime":483.934,"body":"solution, you should track rework."},{"startTime":484.994,"endTime":485.434,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":485.444,"endTime":490.834,"body":"You should be tracking re like put a"},{"startTime":485.444,"endTime":490.834,"body":"tag in JIRA or whatever ALM system that"},{"startTime":490.834,"endTime":496.204,"body":"you're using and track what is rework"},{"startTime":490.834,"endTime":496.204,"body":"and be open with your team about like,"},{"startTime":496.224,"endTime":500.094,"body":"listen, I'm not like, I'm not doing this"},{"startTime":496.224,"endTime":500.094,"body":"to try to penalize everyone, anyone."},{"startTime":500.484,"endTime":506.114,"body":"I just need to help teach management"},{"startTime":500.484,"endTime":506.114,"body":"that if we're going to engage"},{"startTime":506.124,"endTime":507.874,"body":"in this strategy of development."},{"startTime":508.604,"endTime":512.194,"body":"Then we must understand that a"},{"startTime":508.604,"endTime":512.194,"body":"certain amount of our time will"},{"startTime":512.194,"endTime":513.884,"body":"be reworked and that's okay."},{"startTime":513.904,"endTime":521.834,"body":"That's okay It could be that the the cost"},{"startTime":513.904,"endTime":521.834,"body":"of offshoring is justified by how much we"},{"startTime":521.834,"endTime":526.904,"body":"save and Like that that's the bottom line"},{"startTime":521.834,"endTime":526.904,"body":"is, if you're real early in your company,"},{"startTime":527.564,"endTime":533.194,"body":"it could be that the cost is Everything"},{"startTime":527.564,"endTime":533.194,"body":"and there is no other option to launch you"},{"startTime":533.464,"endTime":536.904,"body":"or to scale your to whatever and that that"},{"startTime":533.464,"endTime":536.904,"body":"could be a thing, but it doesn't mean you"},{"startTime":536.954,"endTime":541.964,"body":"should not track that metric so that as"},{"startTime":536.954,"endTime":541.964,"body":"time goes on and that number goes up and"},{"startTime":541.974,"endTime":546.944,"body":"up and up and up, you can't make another"},{"startTime":541.974,"endTime":546.944,"body":"decision for in the future of the company."},{"startTime":546.944,"endTime":547.694,"body":"You should track it."},{"startTime":547.694,"endTime":548.654,"body":"You definitely should track it."},{"startTime":548.704,"endTime":551.354,"body":"A big advantage that"},{"startTime":548.704,"endTime":551.354,"body":"proponents of offshoring."},{"startTime":551.624,"endTime":557.514,"body":"Will proclaim is that you have access"},{"startTime":551.624,"endTime":557.514,"body":"to a global pool of talent when you go"},{"startTime":557.734,"endTime":562.034,"body":"with the offshoring route, as opposed"},{"startTime":557.734,"endTime":562.034,"body":"to my company is based out of Tampa,"},{"startTime":562.034,"endTime":566.754,"body":"Florida, and I can only hire people"},{"startTime":562.034,"endTime":566.754,"body":"within 30, 40 miles of my company office."},{"startTime":566.914,"endTime":570.654,"body":"But the point is, if your,"},{"startTime":566.914,"endTime":570.654,"body":"talent pool is global."},{"startTime":571.239,"endTime":574.189,"body":"It's easier to get better"},{"startTime":571.239,"endTime":574.189,"body":"talent because it doesn't"},{"startTime":574.189,"endTime":575.539,"body":"matter where you get the people."},{"startTime":576.299,"endTime":577.619,"body":"Yeah, I think that's true."},{"startTime":577.649,"endTime":582.789,"body":"I think it's also, companies that"},{"startTime":577.649,"endTime":582.789,"body":"insist on employees being in the office."},{"startTime":582.819,"endTime":586.499,"body":"Perhaps they find it harder"},{"startTime":582.819,"endTime":586.499,"body":"to find people locally."},{"startTime":586.569,"endTime":587.789,"body":"Shocking, shocking."},{"startTime":587.859,"endTime":588.729,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":590.099,"endTime":592.829,"body":"It doesn't just, roses just"},{"startTime":590.099,"endTime":592.829,"body":"don't grow around your feet."},{"startTime":593.849,"endTime":594.609,"body":"So yeah, that's true."},{"startTime":594.639,"endTime":595.369,"body":"That is shocking."},{"startTime":596.569,"endTime":601.064,"body":"I think the other, the other thing is,"},{"startTime":596.569,"endTime":601.064,"body":"If you don't have if you have plenty of"},{"startTime":601.064,"endTime":605.264,"body":"people that you can pick from locally,"},{"startTime":601.064,"endTime":605.264,"body":"but you don't have the specific Talent"},{"startTime":605.284,"endTime":609.184,"body":"that you're looking for specific"},{"startTime":605.284,"endTime":609.184,"body":"technologies, but then you're forced"},{"startTime":609.184,"endTime":610.964,"body":"to look a little bit further, right?"},{"startTime":611.094,"endTime":612.094,"body":"Sometimes a lot further."},{"startTime":612.534,"endTime":616.284,"body":"I mean, in the spirit of arguing agile"},{"startTime":612.534,"endTime":616.284,"body":"with this category, you're planting your"},{"startTime":616.294,"endTime":622.064,"body":"flag in a, in a shifting bed of sand"},{"startTime":616.294,"endTime":622.064,"body":"with this category with me, because I'm"},{"startTime":622.064,"endTime":625.859,"body":"looking at it saying like, well, access"},{"startTime":622.064,"endTime":625.859,"body":"to talent globally, is that a reason to"},{"startTime":625.859,"endTime":631.399,"body":"offshore or is that a reason to just make"},{"startTime":625.859,"endTime":631.399,"body":"up your team permanently of this pool?"},{"startTime":631.485,"endTime":635.695,"body":"if I was hiring permanent developers as"},{"startTime":631.485,"endTime":635.695,"body":"opposed to going with contract firms."},{"startTime":636.68,"endTime":639.37,"body":"Around the globe or whatever,"},{"startTime":636.68,"endTime":639.37,"body":"like what's to stop me from just"},{"startTime":639.38,"endTime":643.77,"body":"sourcing talent globally myself"},{"startTime":639.38,"endTime":643.77,"body":"and hiring them is permanent."},{"startTime":644.11,"endTime":646.72,"body":"Well, nothing except it"},{"startTime":644.11,"endTime":646.72,"body":"will be costly for you."},{"startTime":646.9,"endTime":650.76,"body":"Yeah, but I mean, if, if, if the first"},{"startTime":646.9,"endTime":650.76,"body":"category, if I had kind of gotten over"},{"startTime":650.76,"endTime":654.67,"body":"the first category and I understand that,"},{"startTime":650.76,"endTime":654.67,"body":"I don't want to deal with cost of delay"},{"startTime":654.67,"endTime":658.07,"body":"and I don't want to deal with time zones"},{"startTime":654.67,"endTime":658.07,"body":"being off and I don't, I don't want to"},{"startTime":658.07,"endTime":661.36,"body":"deal with my people not being able to"},{"startTime":658.07,"endTime":661.36,"body":"talk to each other and stuff like that."},{"startTime":661.94,"endTime":667.45,"body":"If, if cost was not the issue,"},{"startTime":661.94,"endTime":667.45,"body":"the advantages expressed by"},{"startTime":668.0,"endTime":670.02,"body":"pro offshoring advocates."},{"startTime":670.14,"endTime":671.63,"body":"Are there pro offshoring advocates?"},{"startTime":671.78,"endTime":672.34,"body":"I don't even know."},{"startTime":673.1,"endTime":678.823,"body":"Anyone who's pro offshoring versus either"},{"startTime":673.1,"endTime":678.823,"body":"nearshoring or onshoring, whatever."},{"startTime":678.913,"endTime":680.983,"body":"I feel if you're willing to hire."},{"startTime":681.658,"endTime":685.728,"body":"remote talent and truly"},{"startTime":681.658,"endTime":685.728,"body":"have them be remote, right?"},{"startTime":685.888,"endTime":689.158,"body":"I feel like you just defeated the"},{"startTime":685.888,"endTime":689.158,"body":"entire advantage of this category,"},{"startTime":689.158,"endTime":692.158,"body":"you just defeated by saying like,"},{"startTime":689.158,"endTime":692.158,"body":"okay, I'll have a remote team too."},{"startTime":693.088,"endTime":693.268,"body":"No."},{"startTime":693.418,"endTime":696.198,"body":"So at that point, there are"},{"startTime":693.418,"endTime":696.198,"body":"companies that could name them."},{"startTime":696.308,"endTime":698.178,"body":"I won't, but I could name them that."},{"startTime":699.273,"endTime":701.993,"body":"They consist of exactly"},{"startTime":699.273,"endTime":701.993,"body":"these kinds of individuals."},{"startTime":701.993,"endTime":702.933,"body":"They're full time employees."},{"startTime":702.943,"endTime":707.143,"body":"They live anywhere, not only anywhere"},{"startTime":702.943,"endTime":707.143,"body":"in the continental US, but anywhere in"},{"startTime":707.143,"endTime":711.793,"body":"the world, but they're not hired hands"},{"startTime":707.143,"endTime":711.793,"body":"in terms of like work, offshored sure."},{"startTime":712.903,"endTime":714.193,"body":"Contract folks, right."},{"startTime":714.243,"endTime":715.473,"body":"They're full time employees."},{"startTime":715.513,"endTime":716.393,"body":"They live where they live."},{"startTime":716.393,"endTime":716.703,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":717.103,"endTime":721.4,"body":"And these companies are thriving, so"},{"startTime":717.103,"endTime":721.4,"body":"I think it can work the proponents"},{"startTime":721.44,"endTime":726.72,"body":"would say, yeah, but they can only"},{"startTime":721.44,"endTime":726.72,"body":"work some of the time of their day."},{"startTime":726.82,"endTime":731.66,"body":"Whereas if you, if you offshore people"},{"startTime":726.82,"endTime":731.66,"body":"can develop 24 seven, it's that elusive"},{"startTime":731.66,"endTime":736.46,"body":"24 seven dev cycle that was promised,"},{"startTime":731.66,"endTime":736.46,"body":"in the early days of offshoring."},{"startTime":736.49,"endTime":739.7,"body":"I promise we'll go into that one next,"},{"startTime":736.49,"endTime":739.7,"body":"but before we get into that category"},{"startTime":739.736,"endTime":746.057,"body":"there is this other promise  in offshoring"},{"startTime":739.736,"endTime":746.057,"body":"about, well, if someone quits or if"},{"startTime":746.057,"endTime":749.417,"body":"we have to get rid of somebody, we"},{"startTime":746.057,"endTime":749.417,"body":"can quickly replace them because we"},{"startTime":749.417,"endTime":751.037,"body":"have all these people on the bench."},{"startTime":751.267,"endTime":754.567,"body":"That's what I hear from"},{"startTime":751.267,"endTime":754.567,"body":"offshored contract firms."},{"startTime":755.137,"endTime":760.437,"body":"Which is in reality, having, having"},{"startTime":755.137,"endTime":760.437,"body":"been a part of a firm that sold contract"},{"startTime":760.437,"endTime":765.007,"body":"services, I know in reality what, they"},{"startTime":760.437,"endTime":765.007,"body":"really just, they run out and they try"},{"startTime":765.007,"endTime":768.267,"body":"to hire somebody quickly to backfill"},{"startTime":765.007,"endTime":768.267,"body":"just like any other company would."},{"startTime":768.477,"endTime":773.387,"body":"So, this is sort of like a, it's"},{"startTime":768.477,"endTime":773.387,"body":"like a ghost of, well, it's, at"},{"startTime":773.497,"endTime":778.457,"body":"least I, with my internal HR people"},{"startTime":773.497,"endTime":778.457,"body":"and my internal recruiters, I"},{"startTime":778.457,"endTime":781.057,"body":"don't have to scramble to replace a"},{"startTime":778.457,"endTime":781.057,"body":"permanent employee when they quit."},{"startTime":781.847,"endTime":782.327,"body":"I can just..."},{"startTime":783.707,"endTime":788.967,"body":"I can just delegate all that to"},{"startTime":783.707,"endTime":788.967,"body":"somebody quote offshore who doesn't"},{"startTime":789.097,"endTime":792.227,"body":"work at my company and then they, they"},{"startTime":789.097,"endTime":792.227,"body":"shouldered the burden of that expense."},{"startTime":792.652,"endTime":797.822,"body":"That, that's what I hear when I hear this,"},{"startTime":792.652,"endTime":797.822,"body":"this, this quote, resource attribution"},{"startTime":798.322,"endTime":802.502,"body":"complaint with, offshoring, advocates."},{"startTime":802.772,"endTime":804.052,"body":"I think it's a numbers game too."},{"startTime":804.052,"endTime":806.822,"body":"They probably do have a deep"},{"startTime":804.052,"endTime":806.822,"body":"bench and they can just swap"},{"startTime":806.822,"endTime":808.282,"body":"out a body with another body."},{"startTime":808.292,"endTime":808.812,"body":"That might be true."},{"startTime":808.992,"endTime":811.782,"body":"Not necessarily that that's a good"},{"startTime":808.992,"endTime":811.782,"body":"thing from your perspective if"},{"startTime":811.782,"endTime":813.302,"body":"you're the company that's, you know."},{"startTime":813.832,"endTime":817.332,"body":"Hiring their services, but"},{"startTime":813.832,"endTime":817.332,"body":"yeah, I have seen that too."},{"startTime":817.902,"endTime":820.252,"body":"To your point though, it's"},{"startTime":817.902,"endTime":820.252,"body":"a substantial savings."},{"startTime":820.262,"endTime":821.592,"body":"You think about it, right?"},{"startTime":821.592,"endTime":826.802,"body":"If you're a medium sized company or"},{"startTime":821.592,"endTime":826.802,"body":"even, a small company, the expense to go"},{"startTime":826.802,"endTime":830.112,"body":"recruit on your own is not insignificant."},{"startTime":830.389,"endTime":837.233,"body":"But you mentioned, time zones it's sold"},{"startTime":830.389,"endTime":837.233,"body":"from pro offshoring advocates as listen,"},{"startTime":837.233,"endTime":841.553,"body":"you can have a development team in Latin"},{"startTime":837.233,"endTime":841.553,"body":"America and you can have development"},{"startTime":841.553,"endTime":845.723,"body":"team in Eastern Europe and you can have"},{"startTime":841.553,"endTime":845.723,"body":"a development team in the Philippines"},{"startTime":845.723,"endTime":852.913,"body":"or something and you can have 24 seven"},{"startTime":845.723,"endTime":852.913,"body":"code progression through your pipeline"},{"startTime":853.155,"endTime":858.685,"body":"Also inside of that, 24 seven progression"},{"startTime":853.155,"endTime":858.685,"body":"also is built in redundancy, where if"},{"startTime":858.685,"endTime":861.915,"body":"something happens, if there's a typhoon"},{"startTime":858.685,"endTime":861.915,"body":"in the Philippines and your Philippines"},{"startTime":862.015,"endTime":865.975,"body":"team can't work today or whatever,"},{"startTime":862.015,"endTime":865.975,"body":"then at least you have the other two"},{"startTime":865.975,"endTime":867.645,"body":"teams is spread across the globe."},{"startTime":867.895,"endTime":874.935,"body":"So the offshoring is billed as a benefit"},{"startTime":867.895,"endTime":874.935,"body":"in this case, because you have people"},{"startTime":874.945,"endTime":880.335,"body":"constantly working in every single time"},{"startTime":874.945,"endTime":880.335,"body":"zone so that 24 seven a day the trains"},{"startTime":880.335,"endTime":882.315,"body":"are running that's the way it's sold."},{"startTime":882.835,"endTime":883.655,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":883.765,"endTime":887.995,"body":"And that's how it was sold to begin"},{"startTime":883.765,"endTime":887.995,"body":"with before, people realize the cost"},{"startTime":887.995,"endTime":892.075,"body":"aspects of this, let's just take"},{"startTime":887.995,"endTime":892.075,"body":"advantage of the 24 hour cycle, right?"},{"startTime":893.155,"endTime":898.08,"body":"The downside is when, when they first"},{"startTime":893.155,"endTime":898.08,"body":"introduced that we didn't have the DR."},{"startTime":898.52,"endTime":900.19,"body":"Technology that exists today."},{"startTime":900.23,"endTime":902.73,"body":"So code had to be literally shifted."},{"startTime":903.14,"endTime":909.04,"body":"So, last thing you did as a developer"},{"startTime":903.14,"endTime":909.04,"body":"before you left for the day is"},{"startTime":909.06,"endTime":913.89,"body":"you put all your code into an area"},{"startTime":909.06,"endTime":913.89,"body":"that FTPs it somewhere or whatever."},{"startTime":914.13,"endTime":914.69,"body":"I know that."},{"startTime":915.69,"endTime":917.48,"body":"So now, yeah, so now it's different."},{"startTime":917.705,"endTime":922.295,"body":"You know, now that there's truly"},{"startTime":917.705,"endTime":922.295,"body":"a redundancy available, but let's"},{"startTime":922.295,"endTime":923.625,"body":"talk about the other side of it."},{"startTime":924.065,"endTime":930.495,"body":"Do you really get the efficiencies if"},{"startTime":924.065,"endTime":930.495,"body":"you want, of, three full days worth of"},{"startTime":930.495,"endTime":933.065,"body":"development in a single 24 hour cycle?"},{"startTime":933.315,"endTime":934.615,"body":"Does that really work that way?"},{"startTime":934.615,"endTime":938.135,"body":"Because what's lost in that?"},{"startTime":938.165,"endTime":939.535,"body":"What is not happening there?"},{"startTime":939.565,"endTime":944.165,"body":"I mean, you've got people that need to"},{"startTime":939.565,"endTime":944.165,"body":"communicate to one another as teams."},{"startTime":944.225,"endTime":945.465,"body":"You got three teams now."},{"startTime":945.695,"endTime":947.885,"body":"So you have many channels"},{"startTime":945.695,"endTime":947.885,"body":"of communication here."},{"startTime":948.445,"endTime":951.465,"body":"And anything can, fall through"},{"startTime":948.445,"endTime":951.465,"body":"the cracks at that point."},{"startTime":951.795,"endTime":955.625,"body":"People are developing, sure, but are"},{"startTime":951.795,"endTime":955.625,"body":"they developing to a cohesive plan?"},{"startTime":956.085,"endTime":957.935,"body":"Everybody bought into the same plan."},{"startTime":958.795,"endTime":961.895,"body":"Well, I don't know if this experience"},{"startTime":958.795,"endTime":961.895,"body":"directly relates to what we're"},{"startTime":961.895,"endTime":963.055,"body":"talking about, but I think it does."},{"startTime":963.675,"endTime":969.345,"body":"I, when I was on a very large, like a 200"},{"startTime":963.675,"endTime":969.345,"body":"something program, like a lot of people,"},{"startTime":969.355,"endTime":973.53,"body":"a big program, and I was, I, I sort of"},{"startTime":969.355,"endTime":973.53,"body":"played a couple of different roles, but"},{"startTime":973.77,"endTime":978.71,"body":"sometimes I play the role of the, like"},{"startTime":973.77,"endTime":978.71,"body":"a coordinator between teams of like this"},{"startTime":978.71,"endTime":981.37,"body":"team starting something you need to start"},{"startTime":978.71,"endTime":981.37,"body":"this, that kind of, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":982.01,"endTime":986.98,"body":"And, I had a couple of Indian teams"},{"startTime":982.01,"endTime":986.98,"body":"and if I wanted to be on their daily"},{"startTime":986.98,"endTime":991.55,"body":"scrum at the start of their day, it"},{"startTime":986.98,"endTime":991.55,"body":"was like 11 o'clock at night for me."},{"startTime":992.27,"endTime":994.39,"body":"And I told that team, no problem."},{"startTime":995.2,"endTime":996.95,"body":"It's like, you guys want to"},{"startTime":995.2,"endTime":996.95,"body":"schedule a daily schedule?"},{"startTime":996.95,"endTime":1000.58,"body":"I'm like, I'll jump in at 11 and I'll"},{"startTime":996.95,"endTime":1000.58,"body":"tell you what the teams did the day"},{"startTime":1000.58,"endTime":1004.57,"body":"previous so that you can jump straight"},{"startTime":1000.58,"endTime":1004.57,"body":"on and not have that communication gap"},{"startTime":1004.57,"endTime":1007.12,"body":"where you got to wait until the morning"},{"startTime":1004.57,"endTime":1007.12,"body":"because they would, they would work"},{"startTime":1007.12,"endTime":1009.02,"body":"like a swing shift in India, I believe."},{"startTime":1009.38,"endTime":1012.64,"body":"And, if you want to jump on with"},{"startTime":1009.38,"endTime":1012.64,"body":"me, I'll tell you what the team did."},{"startTime":1012.86,"endTime":1015.35,"body":"That way you can, hopefully jump ahead."},{"startTime":1015.82,"endTime":1018.26,"body":"If they wouldn't, it takes a conscious"},{"startTime":1015.82,"endTime":1018.26,"body":"effort to do that, doesn't it?"},{"startTime":1018.28,"endTime":1021.14,"body":"Like you agree to work that, that shift."},{"startTime":1021.14,"endTime":1025.11,"body":"So it does take somebody to say, yeah,"},{"startTime":1021.14,"endTime":1025.11,"body":"this is a problem that's worth solving"},{"startTime":1025.11,"endTime":1026.15,"body":"and we're going to invest in it."},{"startTime":1026.22,"endTime":1026.43,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1026.48,"endTime":1032.395,"body":"I needed to do something like that in"},{"startTime":1026.48,"endTime":1032.395,"body":"order to make sure that that team was"},{"startTime":1032.395,"endTime":1036.835,"body":"as productive as they could be otherwise"},{"startTime":1032.395,"endTime":1036.835,"body":"that team would run into a problem with a"},{"startTime":1036.835,"endTime":1041.235,"body":"particular story That was a high priority"},{"startTime":1036.835,"endTime":1041.235,"body":"story and then they would have to wait"},{"startTime":1041.505,"endTime":1046.305,"body":"until 8 a m East Coast time to engage with"},{"startTime":1041.505,"endTime":1046.305,"body":"the product owner To engage and ask their"},{"startTime":1046.305,"endTime":1049.355,"body":"questions of the product owner because"},{"startTime":1046.305,"endTime":1049.355,"body":"they would say, well, we started working"},{"startTime":1049.365,"endTime":1052.905,"body":"on this and we realized we couldn't"},{"startTime":1049.365,"endTime":1052.905,"body":"proceed because we had a question,"},{"startTime":1053.215,"endTime":1054.625,"body":"no matter how minor the question is."},{"startTime":1054.865,"endTime":1056.315,"body":"We had a question and we stopped."},{"startTime":1056.655,"endTime":1060.075,"body":"So we moved over to this other thing"},{"startTime":1056.655,"endTime":1060.075,"body":"that wasn't necessarily the highest"},{"startTime":1060.585,"endTime":1063.855,"body":"priority, but we could move forward and"},{"startTime":1060.585,"endTime":1063.855,"body":"we kind of knew what we needed to do."},{"startTime":1064.025,"endTime":1066.235,"body":"But then when you give us the"},{"startTime":1064.025,"endTime":1066.235,"body":"answer, we'll move back, we'll"},{"startTime":1066.235,"endTime":1067.595,"body":"shift back to this other thing."},{"startTime":1067.805,"endTime":1072.46,"body":"And I remember that always used to"},{"startTime":1067.805,"endTime":1072.46,"body":"drive me crazy to say like, even if"},{"startTime":1072.47,"endTime":1075.28,"body":"you would implement the wrong thing,"},{"startTime":1072.47,"endTime":1075.28,"body":"at least you would, at least something"},{"startTime":1075.28,"endTime":1079.413,"body":"would be in production and I mean, I"},{"startTime":1075.28,"endTime":1079.413,"body":"think everybody in the business would"},{"startTime":1079.413,"endTime":1086.243,"body":"appreciate speed to market as a, just"},{"startTime":1079.413,"endTime":1086.243,"body":"as a principle of like, if you don't"},{"startTime":1086.243,"endTime":1088.943,"body":"understand and you have to make a guess."},{"startTime":1089.548,"endTime":1092.798,"body":"Make a guess one way or another"},{"startTime":1089.548,"endTime":1092.798,"body":"and then let's get to market, let's"},{"startTime":1092.818,"endTime":1094.798,"body":"get to prod as fast as possible."},{"startTime":1094.908,"endTime":1098.488,"body":"Yeah, because in this scenario It's"},{"startTime":1094.908,"endTime":1098.488,"body":"paradoxical really because in the"},{"startTime":1098.488,"endTime":1102.458,"body":"scenario where we're saying look, we"},{"startTime":1098.488,"endTime":1102.458,"body":"take advantage of the 24 hour development"},{"startTime":1102.458,"endTime":1107.128,"body":"cycle But what you're highlighting here"},{"startTime":1102.458,"endTime":1107.128,"body":"somebody has a question they fired off."},{"startTime":1107.168,"endTime":1108.388,"body":"They don't work on that issue."},{"startTime":1108.778,"endTime":1112.508,"body":"Here stateside somebody wakes up"},{"startTime":1108.778,"endTime":1112.508,"body":"at 8 or 7 or whatever and they"},{"startTime":1112.508,"endTime":1115.608,"body":"give the answer That's just in time"},{"startTime":1112.508,"endTime":1115.608,"body":"for them to be going home going."},{"startTime":1115.618,"endTime":1117.188,"body":"Yeah, they haven't already."},{"startTime":1117.188,"endTime":1122.588,"body":"Yep They worked swing shifts so I think"},{"startTime":1117.188,"endTime":1122.588,"body":"they started, sometime in the morning on"},{"startTime":1122.588,"endTime":1127.788,"body":"East Coast and then they finished sometime"},{"startTime":1122.588,"endTime":1127.788,"body":"around like 11 or noon, East Coast."},{"startTime":1127.838,"endTime":1130.528,"body":"But suffice it to say,"},{"startTime":1127.838,"endTime":1130.528,"body":"there's, there's every..."},{"startTime":1131.393,"endTime":1134.323,"body":"Possibility that you actually"},{"startTime":1131.393,"endTime":1134.323,"body":"lose time in that case."},{"startTime":1134.703,"endTime":1135.523,"body":"Oh, we did."},{"startTime":1135.533,"endTime":1139.203,"body":"We certainly did that and that and that's"},{"startTime":1135.533,"endTime":1139.203,"body":"why I told them like hey, I will relay"},{"startTime":1139.213,"endTime":1142.223,"body":"all the decisions that happen during my"},{"startTime":1139.213,"endTime":1142.223,"body":"business day Like they would write up"},{"startTime":1142.223,"endTime":1145.073,"body":"notes and they would turn in their work"},{"startTime":1142.223,"endTime":1145.073,"body":"items And all the decisions that I would"},{"startTime":1145.103,"endTime":1149.953,"body":"have to track down in the business day"},{"startTime":1145.103,"endTime":1149.953,"body":"I would have for them at the start of"},{"startTime":1149.953,"endTime":1154.103,"body":"their day And and yes, you could say well"},{"startTime":1149.953,"endTime":1154.103,"body":"just write it down and send it over in"},{"startTime":1154.113,"endTime":1159.073,"body":"reports But that's not the same because"},{"startTime":1154.113,"endTime":1159.073,"body":"if I send it over a report now, they'll"},{"startTime":1159.073,"endTime":1164.313,"body":"read my report And if I was not completely"},{"startTime":1159.073,"endTime":1164.313,"body":"clear with what I wrote down, they might"},{"startTime":1164.323,"endTime":1166.793,"body":"have other questions and they still"},{"startTime":1164.323,"endTime":1166.793,"body":"might not be able to work on the ticket."},{"startTime":1166.993,"endTime":1171.813,"body":"It's better for me to jump on and then"},{"startTime":1166.993,"endTime":1171.813,"body":"they can ask me questions and I can"},{"startTime":1171.823,"endTime":1175.983,"body":"fill in contexts where maybe I was not"},{"startTime":1171.823,"endTime":1175.983,"body":"great at writing it down or whatever."},{"startTime":1176.593,"endTime":1180.763,"body":"Again, the time zone thing, it's great."},{"startTime":1180.773,"endTime":1185.013,"body":"The idea that we have 24 seven,"},{"startTime":1180.773,"endTime":1185.013,"body":"the train is running 24 seven."},{"startTime":1185.023,"endTime":1186.793,"body":"That's a great concept."},{"startTime":1187.503,"endTime":1191.353,"body":"However, I can think of any"},{"startTime":1187.503,"endTime":1191.353,"body":"city I've ever been to that the"},{"startTime":1191.353,"endTime":1193.333,"body":"trains don't do not run 24 seven."},{"startTime":1193.943,"endTime":1194.433,"body":"They don't run."},{"startTime":1194.503,"endTime":1197.528,"body":"There's a period of time"},{"startTime":1194.503,"endTime":1197.528,"body":"where they decide like, well."},{"startTime":1197.958,"endTime":1201.998,"body":"There's so few people actually"},{"startTime":1197.958,"endTime":1201.998,"body":"doing productive work, and we"},{"startTime":1201.998,"endTime":1205.518,"body":"do have to do some things to the"},{"startTime":1201.998,"endTime":1205.518,"body":"trains during a period of time."},{"startTime":1206.048,"endTime":1210.498,"body":"It would just be better to not run"},{"startTime":1206.048,"endTime":1210.498,"body":"the trains between midnight and 5 a."},{"startTime":1210.498,"endTime":1210.708,"body":"m."},{"startTime":1211.158,"endTime":1213.408,"body":"So we're just gonna take"},{"startTime":1211.158,"endTime":1213.408,"body":"this slice and just..."},{"startTime":1213.843,"endTime":1215.483,"body":"Rest during that period of time."},{"startTime":1215.803,"endTime":1221.633,"body":"So in that example, I was kind of"},{"startTime":1215.803,"endTime":1221.633,"body":"proxy playing the product owner role,"},{"startTime":1221.793,"endTime":1224.673,"body":"going between teams, getting on a"},{"startTime":1221.793,"endTime":1224.673,"body":"little bit later tonight, getting"},{"startTime":1224.673,"endTime":1227.973,"body":"on a little bit early and stuff"},{"startTime":1224.673,"endTime":1227.973,"body":"like that to try to be that, that"},{"startTime":1227.973,"endTime":1229.603,"body":"glue that binds everything together."},{"startTime":1230.103,"endTime":1235.118,"body":"If I hadn't done that, these offshore"},{"startTime":1230.103,"endTime":1235.118,"body":"teams probably would have You know,"},{"startTime":1235.538,"endTime":1241.098,"body":"again, under the guise of not wanting"},{"startTime":1235.538,"endTime":1241.098,"body":"to make a mistake because of the way"},{"startTime":1241.098,"endTime":1243.978,"body":"that they're judged through contracts"},{"startTime":1241.098,"endTime":1243.978,"body":"and through that, you know what I mean,"},{"startTime":1243.978,"endTime":1248.368,"body":"through proxy kind of metrics, they"},{"startTime":1243.978,"endTime":1248.368,"body":"would have just delayed this decision"},{"startTime":1248.798,"endTime":1250.818,"body":"and the cost of that delay over time."},{"startTime":1251.118,"endTime":1252.358,"body":"Would have been huge."},{"startTime":1253.278,"endTime":1254.138,"body":"It would have been massive."},{"startTime":1254.188,"endTime":1258.368,"body":"The point of this category is the"},{"startTime":1254.188,"endTime":1258.368,"body":"idea of, well, there, if we have"},{"startTime":1258.368,"endTime":1261.748,"body":"somebody in different time zones,"},{"startTime":1258.368,"endTime":1261.748,"body":"it gives us some redundancy."},{"startTime":1261.758,"endTime":1263.468,"body":"It gives us some risk mitigation."},{"startTime":1265.158,"endTime":1267.748,"body":"The trade off of that is yes, it does."},{"startTime":1268.208,"endTime":1272.178,"body":"But communication between teams becomes"},{"startTime":1268.208,"endTime":1272.178,"body":"more difficult, the factor in delays"},{"startTime":1272.408,"endTime":1275.888,"body":"and the factor in communications and"},{"startTime":1272.408,"endTime":1275.888,"body":"not clear communications of people just"},{"startTime":1275.908,"endTime":1280.058,"body":"talking to each other, going to scaled"},{"startTime":1275.908,"endTime":1280.058,"body":"events, scaled planning and the fact that"},{"startTime":1280.088,"endTime":1282.228,"body":"you're unable to do that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1282.688,"endTime":1285.538,"body":"Well, you have to set up some kind of"},{"startTime":1282.688,"endTime":1285.538,"body":"special event to do that kind of things."},{"startTime":1286.098,"endTime":1287.018,"body":"I don't know if it's worth it."},{"startTime":1287.108,"endTime":1291.298,"body":"I, I, I think, I think we can call this"},{"startTime":1287.108,"endTime":1291.298,"body":"whole category a wash because, all the"},{"startTime":1291.298,"endTime":1293.728,"body":"benefits kind of cancel out the cons."},{"startTime":1293.878,"endTime":1294.928,"body":"They cancel each other out."},{"startTime":1295.078,"endTime":1296.608,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I concur with that."},{"startTime":1296.618,"endTime":1297.388,"body":"They certainly do."},{"startTime":1297.576,"endTime":1302.803,"body":"The other big advantage that people"},{"startTime":1297.576,"endTime":1302.803,"body":"will say for offshoring is that"},{"startTime":1302.873,"endTime":1306.383,"body":"you don't need to ramp up your"},{"startTime":1302.873,"endTime":1306.383,"body":"company with a lot of support staff."},{"startTime":1306.383,"endTime":1310.593,"body":"You don't need to hire a lot of HR"},{"startTime":1306.383,"endTime":1310.593,"body":"people and recruiting staff, and you"},{"startTime":1310.593,"endTime":1314.273,"body":"don't need a lot of, people to manage"},{"startTime":1310.593,"endTime":1314.273,"body":"payroll and you don't need layers of mid-"},{"startTime":1314.323,"endTime":1317.923,"body":"management and stuff like that because"},{"startTime":1314.323,"endTime":1317.923,"body":"it's just your CTO or head of development"},{"startTime":1317.923,"endTime":1322.583,"body":"or whatever directly asking or quote"},{"startTime":1317.923,"endTime":1322.583,"body":"writing requirements and sending it to"},{"startTime":1322.583,"endTime":1327.813,"body":"the offshore people and then they just"},{"startTime":1322.583,"endTime":1327.813,"body":"build it so, so you can do a lot with."},{"startTime":1328.123,"endTime":1330.233,"body":"a little quote resources."},{"startTime":1330.513,"endTime":1331.513,"body":"And that's a valid point."},{"startTime":1331.543,"endTime":1335.693,"body":"I mean, if you look at just a pure"},{"startTime":1331.543,"endTime":1335.693,"body":"numbers, the savings are real, right?"},{"startTime":1335.963,"endTime":1337.593,"body":"Then flip side of that."},{"startTime":1337.893,"endTime":1340.163,"body":"So what do you lose when you do that?"},{"startTime":1342.233,"endTime":1346.523,"body":"You're left to the devices of those"},{"startTime":1342.233,"endTime":1346.523,"body":"companies, the offshore companies, as"},{"startTime":1346.523,"endTime":1351.238,"body":"far as the quality of people they find,"},{"startTime":1346.523,"endTime":1351.238,"body":"are they just finding anybody that"},{"startTime":1351.248,"endTime":1356.208,"body":"has a pulse saying this guy is now a"},{"startTime":1351.248,"endTime":1356.208,"body":"DBA or are they truly getting somebody"},{"startTime":1356.208,"endTime":1358.378,"body":"who understands databases, right?"},{"startTime":1359.538,"endTime":1363.618,"body":"But I, cause that's been my experience"},{"startTime":1359.538,"endTime":1363.618,"body":"by the way, not wholly, but you"},{"startTime":1363.618,"endTime":1367.738,"body":"know, somewhat where you say, well,"},{"startTime":1363.618,"endTime":1367.738,"body":"I need somebody who can develop in"},{"startTime":1368.008,"endTime":1369.448,"body":"this new language called parrot."},{"startTime":1369.448,"endTime":1371.088,"body":"And they go, we got five"},{"startTime":1369.448,"endTime":1371.088,"body":"people that can do that."},{"startTime":1371.418,"endTime":1371.988,"body":"It's like, really?"},{"startTime":1371.988,"endTime":1373.618,"body":"I just made that up, you know?"},{"startTime":1373.728,"endTime":1374.568,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":1374.778,"endTime":1375.088,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1375.108,"endTime":1378.934,"body":"the concern in this category of,"},{"startTime":1375.108,"endTime":1378.934,"body":"Oh, we don't need to, we don't need"},{"startTime":1378.934,"endTime":1380.374,"body":"to staff up to hire these people."},{"startTime":1381.064,"endTime":1386.17,"body":"Like the, what I hear on the other side"},{"startTime":1381.064,"endTime":1386.17,"body":"of this is, first of all, if we get"},{"startTime":1386.18,"endTime":1390.54,"body":"beyond Brian being sassy, like what, why"},{"startTime":1386.18,"endTime":1390.54,"body":"do you need to ramp up all those people?"},{"startTime":1390.55,"endTime":1391.85,"body":"Like how many of those people do you need?"},{"startTime":1392.225,"endTime":1393.275,"body":"You don't listen."},{"startTime":1393.275,"endTime":1398.555,"body":"You need a, you need a minimal"},{"startTime":1393.275,"endTime":1398.555,"body":"set, if you like, of people because"},{"startTime":1398.935,"endTime":1402.715,"body":"you need somebody to manage the"},{"startTime":1398.935,"endTime":1402.715,"body":"contracts, TPL type of people."},{"startTime":1402.715,"endTime":1402.895,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1402.895,"endTime":1403.165,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1403.17,"endTime":1404.695,"body":"Third party labor type of people."},{"startTime":1404.755,"endTime":1404.845,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1404.845,"endTime":1404.935,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1405.025,"endTime":1406.045,"body":"But you don't need a lot of those."},{"startTime":1406.045,"endTime":1407.635,"body":"They have services that, that do that."},{"startTime":1407.665,"endTime":1408.205,"body":"They, they do."},{"startTime":1408.265,"endTime":1409.675,"body":"I mean, so you pay for those."},{"startTime":1409.675,"endTime":1409.676,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1409.815,"endTime":1411.955,"body":"I've been at more than"},{"startTime":1409.815,"endTime":1411.955,"body":"one startup in my career."},{"startTime":1411.955,"endTime":1412.865,"body":"Let me put it that way."},{"startTime":1412.945,"endTime":1414.625,"body":"I've been part of more than one startup."},{"startTime":1415.065,"endTime":1418.955,"body":"And usually those startups"},{"startTime":1415.065,"endTime":1418.955,"body":"don't have permanent HR people."},{"startTime":1419.305,"endTime":1423.315,"body":"They have a part time person that"},{"startTime":1419.305,"endTime":1423.315,"body":"does both all of the HR function"},{"startTime":1424.865,"endTime":1426.655,"body":"and all of the payroll function."},{"startTime":1427.495,"endTime":1430.155,"body":"And that person does"},{"startTime":1427.495,"endTime":1430.155,"body":"both of those functions."},{"startTime":1430.42,"endTime":1434.26,"body":"Those very different functions"},{"startTime":1430.42,"endTime":1434.26,"body":"as a part time employee."},{"startTime":1435.09,"endTime":1437.93,"body":"I've seen more than, more than"},{"startTime":1435.09,"endTime":1437.93,"body":"two companies do it that way."},{"startTime":1438.04,"endTime":1443.15,"body":"Yeah, one of the small, contracting, start"},{"startTime":1438.04,"endTime":1443.15,"body":"up company that I work for, they don't,"},{"startTime":1443.16,"endTime":1444.55,"body":"they didn't have anybody, basically."},{"startTime":1444.55,"endTime":1447.67,"body":"They're a small company, about"},{"startTime":1444.55,"endTime":1447.67,"body":"50 people, 50, 60 people."},{"startTime":1448.02,"endTime":1452.51,"body":"And all of the HR, all of the payroll,"},{"startTime":1448.02,"endTime":1452.51,"body":"everything was handled by a third party."},{"startTime":1452.56,"endTime":1452.82,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1453.06,"endTime":1454.37,"body":"And they did a fantastic job."},{"startTime":1454.46,"endTime":1454.67,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1454.88,"endTime":1455.18,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1455.27,"endTime":1456.46,"body":"You pick up the phone, call them."},{"startTime":1456.65,"endTime":1456.87,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1457.24,"endTime":1457.69,"body":"It was great."},{"startTime":1457.69,"endTime":1457.93,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1458.7,"endTime":1462.86,"body":"Payroll, as a third party payroll, I've"},{"startTime":1458.7,"endTime":1462.86,"body":"seen that quite a few times, actually."},{"startTime":1463.19,"endTime":1465.57,"body":"And if there's any problems, then"},{"startTime":1463.19,"endTime":1465.57,"body":"you just work with them and then"},{"startTime":1465.58,"endTime":1467.01,"body":"they, I mean, that's what they do."},{"startTime":1467.08,"endTime":1467.23,"body":"Basically."},{"startTime":1467.61,"endTime":1467.93,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1467.94,"endTime":1470.81,"body":"These days they may as well"},{"startTime":1467.94,"endTime":1470.81,"body":"call it payroll as a service."},{"startTime":1470.82,"endTime":1475.0,"body":"I mean, my, my big issue with"},{"startTime":1470.82,"endTime":1475.0,"body":"this category is, you, you want"},{"startTime":1475.01,"endTime":1476.625,"body":"missionaries, not mercenaries."},{"startTime":1476.685,"endTime":1480.285,"body":"Yes, that, that comes straight"},{"startTime":1476.685,"endTime":1480.285,"body":"out of Marty Cagan's inspired."},{"startTime":1480.605,"endTime":1481.835,"body":"I'm not going to link it."},{"startTime":1482.094,"endTime":1484.644,"body":"But I don't know, like you'd listen,"},{"startTime":1482.094,"endTime":1484.644,"body":"you want missionaries, not mercenaries."},{"startTime":1484.644,"endTime":1486.794,"body":"I mean, as your, as your"},{"startTime":1484.644,"endTime":1486.794,"body":"company grows over time."},{"startTime":1487.309,"endTime":1488.289,"body":"You're going to branch out."},{"startTime":1488.289,"endTime":1490.569,"body":"You're going to want people"},{"startTime":1488.289,"endTime":1490.569,"body":"that understand your culture."},{"startTime":1490.569,"endTime":1494.049,"body":"You're going to want people that"},{"startTime":1490.569,"endTime":1494.049,"body":"have those strong relationships with"},{"startTime":1494.069,"endTime":1497.509,"body":"both your customers, by the way, we"},{"startTime":1494.069,"endTime":1497.509,"body":"haven't even talked about that yet,"},{"startTime":1497.749,"endTime":1501.369,"body":"but with your customers that understand"},{"startTime":1497.749,"endTime":1501.369,"body":"your business, they understand your"},{"startTime":1501.379,"endTime":1506.189,"body":"business domain, their domain experts,"},{"startTime":1501.379,"endTime":1506.189,"body":"as well as developers or salespeople"},{"startTime":1506.199,"endTime":1507.509,"body":"or support staff or whatever."},{"startTime":1507.729,"endTime":1508.219,"body":"They know your domain."},{"startTime":1508.219,"endTime":1508.619,"body":"And, when you're."},{"startTime":1511.304,"endTime":1513.944,"body":"When you're offshoring all that,"},{"startTime":1511.304,"endTime":1513.944,"body":"you're not, you're not keeping"},{"startTime":1513.944,"endTime":1515.784,"body":"any of that knowledge in house."},{"startTime":1516.024,"endTime":1519.954,"body":"And that, that just, that"},{"startTime":1516.024,"endTime":1519.954,"body":"seems ludicrous to me."},{"startTime":1520.564,"endTime":1522.714,"body":"That you would not want to"},{"startTime":1520.564,"endTime":1522.714,"body":"keep that knowledge in house."},{"startTime":1523.904,"endTime":1527.374,"body":"So, so many companies though,"},{"startTime":1523.904,"endTime":1527.374,"body":"fall foul of this, don't they?"},{"startTime":1527.624,"endTime":1530.304,"body":"And they, they suffer, but they"},{"startTime":1527.624,"endTime":1530.304,"body":"don't know if they're suffering,"},{"startTime":1530.314,"endTime":1534.104,"body":"because they just short term"},{"startTime":1530.314,"endTime":1534.104,"body":"vision is on the dollars, right?"},{"startTime":1534.979,"endTime":1539.479,"body":"But yeah, it is causing the company harm"},{"startTime":1534.979,"endTime":1539.479,"body":"because of that loss of domain knowledge."},{"startTime":1539.519,"endTime":1542.679,"body":"It's going to, how can it"},{"startTime":1539.519,"endTime":1542.679,"body":"not cause you harm, right?"},{"startTime":1543.069,"endTime":1544.759,"body":"It's, it's not being diluted."},{"startTime":1544.759,"endTime":1545.919,"body":"It's being lost."},{"startTime":1546.229,"endTime":1546.779,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1546.829,"endTime":1548.239,"body":"It's never being gained."},{"startTime":1548.369,"endTime":1548.669,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1548.719,"endTime":1551.049,"body":"I don't, I don't see how you, um."},{"startTime":1551.279,"endTime":1551.979,"body":"Can't ignore that,"},{"startTime":1552.389,"endTime":1553.909,"body":"We already talked a little bit about."},{"startTime":1554.539,"endTime":1558.089,"body":"Being more difficult to communicate,"},{"startTime":1554.539,"endTime":1558.089,"body":"being there in different time zones."},{"startTime":1558.209,"endTime":1560.659,"body":"Perhaps they speak different"},{"startTime":1558.209,"endTime":1560.659,"body":"languages, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1560.669,"endTime":1563.709,"body":"Like maybe it's like just"},{"startTime":1560.669,"endTime":1563.709,"body":"purely just basic communication"},{"startTime":1563.709,"endTime":1565.159,"body":"might be more difficult."},{"startTime":1565.529,"endTime":1566.499,"body":"Basic communication."},{"startTime":1567.219,"endTime":1571.279,"body":"But I'm now I'm talking about"},{"startTime":1567.219,"endTime":1571.279,"body":"collaboration, like actually peering with"},{"startTime":1571.279,"endTime":1576.469,"body":"people to write code or to write tests or"},{"startTime":1571.279,"endTime":1576.469,"body":"to talk about requirements of the software"},{"startTime":1576.629,"endTime":1579.839,"body":"or talk about potential architecture"},{"startTime":1576.629,"endTime":1579.839,"body":"that we might or might not do."},{"startTime":1580.639,"endTime":1585.399,"body":"That's way more difficult when people"},{"startTime":1580.639,"endTime":1585.399,"body":"are in different time, time zones."},{"startTime":1586.409,"endTime":1588.549,"body":"Speak different languages,"},{"startTime":1586.409,"endTime":1588.549,"body":"have different cultures."},{"startTime":1589.769,"endTime":1590.549,"body":"Completely agree."},{"startTime":1590.909,"endTime":1594.139,"body":"I think some of that is basically"},{"startTime":1590.909,"endTime":1594.139,"body":"underpinned by the time difference."},{"startTime":1594.139,"endTime":1596.579,"body":"I mean, if they're not working when you're"},{"startTime":1594.139,"endTime":1596.579,"body":"working, how do you collaborate with them?"},{"startTime":1596.579,"endTime":1596.899,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1596.989,"endTime":1600.599,"body":"But but the, the other issues"},{"startTime":1596.989,"endTime":1600.599,"body":"that you, you, the other topics"},{"startTime":1600.599,"endTime":1602.359,"body":"you've raised, different language."},{"startTime":1602.609,"endTime":1607.489,"body":"So there's, it's not just simply, Oh yeah,"},{"startTime":1602.609,"endTime":1607.489,"body":"everybody understands English, right?"},{"startTime":1607.509,"endTime":1612.617,"body":"There's nuances and interpretation"},{"startTime":1607.509,"endTime":1612.617,"body":"and how you comprehend things, right?"},{"startTime":1612.667,"endTime":1615.267,"body":"Yeah, it could be, it could be"},{"startTime":1612.667,"endTime":1615.267,"body":"a number of different things."},{"startTime":1615.417,"endTime":1617.847,"body":"Before we even get to"},{"startTime":1615.417,"endTime":1617.847,"body":"the cultural differences."},{"startTime":1617.987,"endTime":1618.237,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1618.517,"endTime":1619.207,"body":"Language."},{"startTime":1619.277,"endTime":1622.487,"body":"So they learn the English"},{"startTime":1619.277,"endTime":1622.487,"body":"language, but in a different way."},{"startTime":1622.757,"endTime":1626.047,"body":"Like, I know that if you're"},{"startTime":1622.757,"endTime":1626.047,"body":"dealing with folks from India."},{"startTime":1626.677,"endTime":1630.937,"body":"They didn't learn American English,"},{"startTime":1626.677,"endTime":1630.937,"body":"they learned some derivation"},{"startTime":1630.937,"endTime":1632.917,"body":"of British English, right?"},{"startTime":1633.327,"endTime":1638.497,"body":"And certain things mean different things,"},{"startTime":1633.327,"endTime":1638.497,"body":"even though the words are English."},{"startTime":1638.867,"endTime":1640.047,"body":"So there's that issue."},{"startTime":1640.727,"endTime":1643.487,"body":"Now let's talk about some of"},{"startTime":1640.727,"endTime":1643.487,"body":"the cultural issues, right?"},{"startTime":1643.557,"endTime":1647.912,"body":"So first and foremost, the"},{"startTime":1643.557,"endTime":1647.912,"body":"underlying culture there is..."},{"startTime":1648.352,"endTime":1649.172,"body":"Keep your head down."},{"startTime":1649.562,"endTime":1650.122,"body":"Do your job."},{"startTime":1650.682,"endTime":1651.412,"body":"Don't take risks."},{"startTime":1651.982,"endTime":1654.102,"body":"So from that point, I mean,"},{"startTime":1651.982,"endTime":1654.102,"body":"we're talking earlier."},{"startTime":1655.382,"endTime":1660.262,"body":"How, if you're not sure about something,"},{"startTime":1655.382,"endTime":1660.262,"body":"make a decision and move on now, they're"},{"startTime":1660.262,"endTime":1661.522,"body":"not going to do that's not the culture."},{"startTime":1661.532,"endTime":1662.052,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1662.272,"endTime":1666.232,"body":"Because the reason why they're not"},{"startTime":1662.272,"endTime":1666.232,"body":"going to do that is because that is"},{"startTime":1666.232,"endTime":1667.824,"body":"looked down upon by their culture."},{"startTime":1667.824,"endTime":1667.857,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1668.357,"endTime":1669.127,"body":"Supervisors."},{"startTime":1669.167,"endTime":1669.377,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1669.977,"endTime":1671.257,"body":"Then you say, well, why'd you do that?"},{"startTime":1671.367,"endTime":1672.557,"body":"If you weren't sure, stop."},{"startTime":1672.637,"endTime":1675.437,"body":"And so when they stop, it costs you"},{"startTime":1672.637,"endTime":1675.437,"body":"another day because then they fire off"},{"startTime":1675.437,"endTime":1677.277,"body":"the question, they wait for the answer."},{"startTime":1678.097,"endTime":1682.157,"body":"So that cultural aspect really"},{"startTime":1678.097,"endTime":1682.157,"body":"is, is pretty important here."},{"startTime":1682.417,"endTime":1689.337,"body":"even if there were not a backdrop of a"},{"startTime":1682.417,"endTime":1689.337,"body":"caste system at play, specific to India,"},{"startTime":1689.962,"endTime":1693.202,"body":"Even if there were not that, I would"},{"startTime":1689.962,"endTime":1693.202,"body":"understand if you were in a culture"},{"startTime":1693.202,"endTime":1698.657,"body":"where making a Wrong decision was like,"},{"startTime":1693.202,"endTime":1698.657,"body":"I've been in companies like this where"},{"startTime":1698.977,"endTime":1704.047,"body":"making a wrong decision was 10 times"},{"startTime":1698.977,"endTime":1704.047,"body":"worse than making no decision and just"},{"startTime":1704.047,"endTime":1707.66,"body":"sitting around, so I understand it from"},{"startTime":1704.047,"endTime":1707.66,"body":"that perspective, but also like, then,"},{"startTime":1707.67,"endTime":1712.44,"body":"then you double down on the fact that,"},{"startTime":1707.67,"endTime":1712.44,"body":"that the culture has different classes."},{"startTime":1712.44,"endTime":1716.78,"body":"And that's just ingrained in this,"},{"startTime":1712.44,"endTime":1716.78,"body":"this system that you don't like as an"},{"startTime":1716.78,"endTime":1718.09,"body":"outsider, you don't even understand."},{"startTime":1718.61,"endTime":1722.11,"body":"You don't need to, you just know that"},{"startTime":1718.61,"endTime":1722.11,"body":"it's a complex ball of wax, right?"},{"startTime":1722.33,"endTime":1724.35,"body":"I mean, nobody needs to understand it."},{"startTime":1724.38,"endTime":1725.42,"body":"They need to get rid of it."},{"startTime":1725.44,"endTime":1728.08,"body":"And I think in the bigger cities now."},{"startTime":1728.235,"endTime":1731.445,"body":"You're starting to see some of that,"},{"startTime":1728.235,"endTime":1731.445,"body":"but they were a long way to go."},{"startTime":1732.155,"endTime":1735.515,"body":"Yeah, but I mean, the, the point is"},{"startTime":1732.155,"endTime":1735.515,"body":"like that backdrop is still there."},{"startTime":1735.525,"endTime":1736.515,"body":"It is American."},{"startTime":1736.535,"endTime":1739.815,"body":"And like, if you're, if you're, if you're"},{"startTime":1736.535,"endTime":1739.815,"body":"just looking at these pros and cons and"},{"startTime":1739.815,"endTime":1745.385,"body":"your big pro is like, well, it's, it's"},{"startTime":1739.815,"endTime":1745.385,"body":"half as half the costs cheaper, you know?"},{"startTime":1745.455,"endTime":1747.185,"body":"And then you don't"},{"startTime":1745.455,"endTime":1747.185,"body":"understand any of these."},{"startTime":1747.205,"endTime":1748.64,"body":"You, you've never been over there."},{"startTime":1749.43,"endTime":1749.88,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1750.45,"endTime":1755.15,"body":"You've never, you've never worked with"},{"startTime":1750.45,"endTime":1755.15,"body":"teams, where you have the one tech lead or"},{"startTime":1755.15,"endTime":1758.99,"body":"team lead who the whole team waits on that"},{"startTime":1755.15,"endTime":1758.99,"body":"person's opinion before they say anything."},{"startTime":1759.16,"endTime":1759.46,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1759.68,"endTime":1761.6,"body":"Japanese culture is kind"},{"startTime":1759.68,"endTime":1761.6,"body":"of the same way as well."},{"startTime":1761.61,"endTime":1765.06,"body":"They'll, they'll defer to the person at"},{"startTime":1761.61,"endTime":1765.06,"body":"the head of the table  and that's why"},{"startTime":1765.07,"endTime":1770.34,"body":"some of the traditions over there is,"},{"startTime":1765.07,"endTime":1770.34,"body":"you give your opinion starting from the"},{"startTime":1770.34,"endTime":1773.87,"body":"youngest person at the table and then"},{"startTime":1770.34,"endTime":1773.87,"body":"goes, goes around to the most senior"},{"startTime":1773.87,"endTime":1778.55,"body":"person last because you, you as a senior"},{"startTime":1773.87,"endTime":1778.55,"body":"person, you don't want to influence the"},{"startTime":1778.56,"endTime":1779.86,"body":"conversation in any way, shape, or form."},{"startTime":1779.86,"endTime":1782.18,"body":"You want to hear everyone's"},{"startTime":1779.86,"endTime":1782.18,"body":"opinion, you know?"},{"startTime":1782.19,"endTime":1786.3,"body":"Yeah, there's the other side of it,"},{"startTime":1782.19,"endTime":1786.3,"body":"which is, you as a junior person don't"},{"startTime":1786.3,"endTime":1788.785,"body":"want to disrespect a senior person."},{"startTime":1788.795,"endTime":1792.185,"body":"And I know that in some Asian cultures,"},{"startTime":1788.795,"endTime":1792.185,"body":"that's, that's very prevalent, right?"},{"startTime":1792.625,"endTime":1796.915,"body":"So, so if a younger person has"},{"startTime":1792.625,"endTime":1796.915,"body":"something valuable to contribute,"},{"startTime":1796.965,"endTime":1798.455,"body":"they'll hold back, right?"},{"startTime":1798.655,"endTime":1802.415,"body":"Until somebody else says something close"},{"startTime":1798.655,"endTime":1802.415,"body":"to it, and then they'll say, oh yeah."},{"startTime":1802.485,"endTime":1804.845,"body":"That happens, and that happens"},{"startTime":1802.485,"endTime":1804.845,"body":"in corporate America too."},{"startTime":1804.915,"endTime":1809.205,"body":"Is it like people, it may not even be"},{"startTime":1804.915,"endTime":1809.205,"body":"a For positions and ranks, it does."},{"startTime":1809.205,"endTime":1811.635,"body":"Not so much for like age, right?"},{"startTime":1812.085,"endTime":1813.065,"body":"But yeah, you're right, it does."},{"startTime":1814.82,"endTime":1816.79,"body":"The cultural differences"},{"startTime":1814.82,"endTime":1816.79,"body":"is a great category."},{"startTime":1816.84,"endTime":1824.33,"body":"Like just people working together who"},{"startTime":1816.84,"endTime":1824.33,"body":"do not share the regular cultural norms"},{"startTime":1824.75,"endTime":1827.73,"body":"is a great category because people"},{"startTime":1824.75,"endTime":1827.73,"body":"outside of software, people that might"},{"startTime":1827.73,"endTime":1831.21,"body":"be listening to this, that are at the"},{"startTime":1827.73,"endTime":1831.21,"body":"beginning of their career or people"},{"startTime":1831.21,"endTime":1835.51,"body":"that have not worked on these really,"},{"startTime":1831.21,"endTime":1835.51,"body":"really , culturally diverse teams."},{"startTime":1836.475,"endTime":1840.965,"body":"Throughout their career may not have"},{"startTime":1836.475,"endTime":1840.965,"body":"been exposed to like I mean, I think"},{"startTime":1840.965,"endTime":1844.165,"body":"in those basic concepts because"},{"startTime":1840.965,"endTime":1844.165,"body":"I work with these other culture."},{"startTime":1844.465,"endTime":1850.385,"body":"I've directly observed other cultures"},{"startTime":1844.465,"endTime":1850.385,"body":"at work Yeah, but if you're making just"},{"startTime":1850.385,"endTime":1853.915,"body":"a purely financial decision and you"},{"startTime":1850.385,"endTime":1853.915,"body":"haven't even thought about how these"},{"startTime":1853.915,"endTime":1858.165,"body":"things are gonna Play into the you know"},{"startTime":1853.915,"endTime":1858.165,"body":"into the cost They're going to, they're"},{"startTime":1858.165,"endTime":1859.845,"body":"going to play in the cost eventually."},{"startTime":1859.845,"endTime":1860.865,"body":"They will for sure."},{"startTime":1860.895,"endTime":1866.035,"body":"I mean, people here, that you hire"},{"startTime":1860.895,"endTime":1866.035,"body":"team members, the junior folks"},{"startTime":1866.045,"endTime":1869.305,"body":"that you mentioned, you don't"},{"startTime":1866.045,"endTime":1869.305,"body":"learn this stuff about culture"},{"startTime":1869.305,"endTime":1870.405,"body":"and stuff like that in school."},{"startTime":1870.495,"endTime":1870.935,"body":"Nobody teach."},{"startTime":1870.995,"endTime":1872.255,"body":"There's no class for that."},{"startTime":1872.425,"endTime":1876.155,"body":"You sort of learn it by"},{"startTime":1872.425,"endTime":1876.155,"body":"osmosis, by working in school"},{"startTime":1876.155,"endTime":1877.535,"body":"of hard knocks and experience."},{"startTime":1877.623,"endTime":1879.043,"body":"So yeah, ignore it at your peril."},{"startTime":1879.059,"endTime":1883.099,"body":"The other thing that is worth mentioning"},{"startTime":1879.059,"endTime":1883.099,"body":"is, if you're going offshoring,"},{"startTime":1884.469,"endTime":1888.949,"body":"kind of the opposite of my, my whole"},{"startTime":1884.469,"endTime":1888.949,"body":"statement about missionaries, not"},{"startTime":1888.999,"endTime":1892.369,"body":"mercenaries, is now you're dependent"},{"startTime":1888.999,"endTime":1892.369,"body":"on a third party, like whoever you're"},{"startTime":1892.369,"endTime":1894.129,"body":"using for that labor in that country."},{"startTime":1894.569,"endTime":1896.919,"body":"You're dependent on that now, and"},{"startTime":1894.569,"endTime":1896.919,"body":"I'm not I'm not saying you have"},{"startTime":1896.919,"endTime":1901.179,"body":"to have a slush fund for bribery"},{"startTime":1896.919,"endTime":1901.179,"body":"Depending on what country you're in."},{"startTime":1903.712,"endTime":1907.572,"body":"you're dependent on that third party"},{"startTime":1903.712,"endTime":1907.572,"body":"labor source So whatever you need to do"},{"startTime":1907.572,"endTime":1911.842,"body":"to keep that third party labor source"},{"startTime":1907.572,"endTime":1911.842,"body":"going and to not disrupt your business"},{"startTime":1912.102,"endTime":1913.722,"body":"I mean basically you have to do it."},{"startTime":1913.762,"endTime":1917.607,"body":"You don't have a choice now You're held"},{"startTime":1913.762,"endTime":1917.607,"body":"hostage in many ways, actually, because"},{"startTime":1917.607,"endTime":1922.657,"body":"you're, a lot of your domain knowledge"},{"startTime":1917.607,"endTime":1922.657,"body":"is with another, another entity, right?"},{"startTime":1922.697,"endTime":1923.347,"body":"Overseas."},{"startTime":1924.197,"endTime":1929.287,"body":"So, if they suddenly, let's say,"},{"startTime":1924.197,"endTime":1929.287,"body":"get acquired, and they decide your"},{"startTime":1929.287,"endTime":1932.357,"body":"business is not profitable enough for"},{"startTime":1929.287,"endTime":1932.357,"body":"them, and they're going to drop you."},{"startTime":1932.357,"endTime":1933.077,"body":"Yeah, too small."},{"startTime":1933.557,"endTime":1933.947,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1934.027,"endTime":1935.237,"body":"So then what happens, right?"},{"startTime":1935.407,"endTime":1940.247,"body":"Or, or the other thing that, that,"},{"startTime":1935.407,"endTime":1940.247,"body":"people that, that are working at"},{"startTime":1940.257,"endTime":1942.727,"body":"those institutions, they leave, right?"},{"startTime":1942.747,"endTime":1944.817,"body":"And the company doesn't do"},{"startTime":1942.747,"endTime":1944.817,"body":"anything to retain them."},{"startTime":1945.102,"endTime":1946.582,"body":"All right, just go."},{"startTime":1947.162,"endTime":1951.762,"body":"So again, you've suffered"},{"startTime":1947.162,"endTime":1951.762,"body":"sitting here because of those"},{"startTime":1951.802,"endTime":1954.392,"body":"consequences over there somewhere."},{"startTime":1954.512,"endTime":1954.742,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1954.762,"endTime":1956.962,"body":"So these dependencies are huge."},{"startTime":1957.632,"endTime":1958.422,"body":"What a great point."},{"startTime":1958.502,"endTime":1965.146,"body":"Because, people that talk about offshoring"},{"startTime":1958.502,"endTime":1965.146,"body":"talk about being easier to replace people."},{"startTime":1965.661,"endTime":1971.031,"body":"And easier to scale up development"},{"startTime":1965.661,"endTime":1971.031,"body":"efforts as a pro of offshoring."},{"startTime":1971.341,"endTime":1973.701,"body":"We talked about this a little bit"},{"startTime":1971.341,"endTime":1973.701,"body":"earlier in this podcast about like,"},{"startTime":1973.911,"endTime":1977.581,"body":"well, it's not really true of like,"},{"startTime":1973.911,"endTime":1977.581,"body":"well, I got to go hire 10 people, so"},{"startTime":1977.581,"endTime":1980.051,"body":"I'll just go to this firm and they"},{"startTime":1977.581,"endTime":1980.051,"body":"have 10 people sitting on the bench."},{"startTime":1980.161,"endTime":1984.211,"body":"Well, they don't really have 10"},{"startTime":1980.161,"endTime":1984.211,"body":"people quote sitting on the bench."},{"startTime":1984.421,"endTime":1986.731,"body":"No, they're going to, they're"},{"startTime":1984.421,"endTime":1986.731,"body":"going to scarper really quickly"},{"startTime":1986.731,"endTime":1988.051,"body":"and try and find 10 people."},{"startTime":1988.391,"endTime":1988.561,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1988.561,"endTime":1990.641,"body":"They're going to do the same thing"},{"startTime":1988.561,"endTime":1990.641,"body":"that you would do if you had to hire."},{"startTime":1991.261,"endTime":1991.951,"body":"But hang on."},{"startTime":1991.951,"endTime":1992.351,"body":"Will they?"},{"startTime":1992.606,"endTime":1996.746,"body":"Because they're possibly going to simply"},{"startTime":1992.606,"endTime":1996.746,"body":"find 10 people that have a pulse and go,"},{"startTime":1996.746,"endTime":1998.886,"body":"Yeah, we got these experts for you, right?"},{"startTime":1998.936,"endTime":2002.586,"body":"As opposed to you will do the"},{"startTime":1998.936,"endTime":2002.586,"body":"due diligence, hopefully, because"},{"startTime":2002.646,"endTime":2004.396,"body":"you want that quality, right?"},{"startTime":2004.806,"endTime":2006.606,"body":"So I think that that risk is always there."},{"startTime":2006.636,"endTime":2009.406,"body":"Because all that company is"},{"startTime":2006.636,"endTime":2009.406,"body":"interested in doing is putting butts"},{"startTime":2009.406,"endTime":2010.836,"body":"in seats so they can charge you."},{"startTime":2011.456,"endTime":2015.066,"body":"Yeah, I told the story to Om before"},{"startTime":2011.456,"endTime":2015.066,"body":"the podcast started, like I was coupled"},{"startTime":2015.066,"endTime":2020.069,"body":"with a development manager one time"},{"startTime":2015.066,"endTime":2020.069,"body":"who his, his viewpoint was with the"},{"startTime":2020.069,"endTime":2022.222,"body":"contracting firms that he was, employing."},{"startTime":2022.392,"endTime":2027.612,"body":"He did not want to, spend any"},{"startTime":2022.392,"endTime":2027.612,"body":"time, training up the individuals."},{"startTime":2028.027,"endTime":2029.387,"body":"That he got from the contracting firm."},{"startTime":2029.397,"endTime":2034.227,"body":"He felt they should already be trained"},{"startTime":2029.397,"endTime":2034.227,"body":"up, and they, the, the, the time that it"},{"startTime":2034.227,"endTime":2039.467,"body":"took them to learn the domain knowledge,"},{"startTime":2034.227,"endTime":2039.467,"body":"and the, the, the code specific knowledge"},{"startTime":2039.467,"endTime":2043.077,"body":"for that company or whatever, he, he felt"},{"startTime":2039.467,"endTime":2043.077,"body":"that that should be a minimal amount,"},{"startTime":2043.377,"endTime":2048.167,"body":"rather than, a, a steep uphill climb, to"},{"startTime":2043.377,"endTime":2048.167,"body":"learn their code base and stuff like that."},{"startTime":2048.227,"endTime":2050.967,"body":"They knew the language, so it wouldn't,"},{"startTime":2048.227,"endTime":2050.967,"body":"it shouldn't be that hard for them"},{"startTime":2050.967,"endTime":2055.727,"body":"to, Learn the the domain basically"},{"startTime":2050.967,"endTime":2055.727,"body":"from the code that that thought"},{"startTime":2055.737,"endTime":2058.367,"body":"process is not Uncommon at all, right?"},{"startTime":2058.447,"endTime":2060.957,"body":"Yeah, we don't train contractors, right?"},{"startTime":2061.277,"endTime":2064.497,"body":"Well, then the flip side of that is"},{"startTime":2061.277,"endTime":2064.497,"body":"are you willing to pay more so they"},{"startTime":2064.497,"endTime":2067.677,"body":"get trained up because someone's got"},{"startTime":2064.497,"endTime":2067.677,"body":"to pay to Have them trained up, right?"},{"startTime":2069.637,"endTime":2073.257,"body":"core skills like development language"},{"startTime":2069.637,"endTime":2073.257,"body":"skills things like that ideas, whatever"},{"startTime":2073.257,"endTime":2077.917,"body":"it is, that's one thing but But learning"},{"startTime":2073.257,"endTime":2077.917,"body":"your domain, you better train them in"},{"startTime":2077.917,"endTime":2081.777,"body":"that, cause they're going to come in"},{"startTime":2077.917,"endTime":2081.777,"body":"and it's like, they're going to do sword"},{"startTime":2081.777,"endTime":2084.157,"body":"fighting in your room with blindfolds on."},{"startTime":2084.657,"endTime":2085.017,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2085.317,"endTime":2088.967,"body":"I remember I had come up from another"},{"startTime":2085.317,"endTime":2088.967,"body":"contract that was a much longer term."},{"startTime":2088.977,"endTime":2094.377,"body":"I was there a long time and, I had"},{"startTime":2088.977,"endTime":2094.377,"body":"come onto a contract with him and I was"},{"startTime":2094.387,"endTime":2097.567,"body":"kind of his peer in the organization at"},{"startTime":2094.387,"endTime":2097.567,"body":"this point they brought me in a product"},{"startTime":2097.567,"endTime":2102.507,"body":"capacity and I was really his peer  it's"},{"startTime":2097.567,"endTime":2102.507,"body":"a small company, had a lot of managers."},{"startTime":2102.842,"endTime":2106.602,"body":"That were, kind of equity level"},{"startTime":2102.842,"endTime":2106.602,"body":"managers of the organization."},{"startTime":2106.962,"endTime":2109.812,"body":"And, I was kind of his peer and"},{"startTime":2106.962,"endTime":2109.812,"body":"I, and I kind of cautioned him,"},{"startTime":2109.812,"endTime":2111.506,"body":"Hey, bringing on these people."},{"startTime":2111.506,"endTime":2116.766,"body":"And then kind of emphasizing that they're"},{"startTime":2111.506,"endTime":2116.766,"body":"just kind of mercenary hired guns."},{"startTime":2116.846,"endTime":2119.296,"body":"This is not going to scale"},{"startTime":2116.846,"endTime":2119.296,"body":"well for you in the long term."},{"startTime":2119.296,"endTime":2122.476,"body":"I mean, at some point, you as a"},{"startTime":2119.296,"endTime":2122.476,"body":"leader in the organization, I mean,"},{"startTime":2122.476,"endTime":2124.996,"body":"that's who you are when you're, when"},{"startTime":2122.476,"endTime":2124.996,"body":"you work directly with a CEO and"},{"startTime":2124.996,"endTime":2127.666,"body":"you're part of the leadership staff"},{"startTime":2124.996,"endTime":2127.666,"body":"or whatever you want to call it."},{"startTime":2128.186,"endTime":2135.376,"body":"Your job now is to, like lay down the"},{"startTime":2128.186,"endTime":2135.376,"body":"vision and extend the CEO to these"},{"startTime":2135.376,"endTime":2139.376,"body":"other departments that maybe the"},{"startTime":2135.376,"endTime":2139.376,"body":"CEO doesn't have technical expertise"},{"startTime":2139.376,"endTime":2141.186,"body":"or experience in and whatnot."},{"startTime":2141.676,"endTime":2142.776,"body":"And that's what they need you to do."},{"startTime":2142.776,"endTime":2148.361,"body":"And I was like, if you just hire a staff"},{"startTime":2142.776,"endTime":2148.361,"body":"of mercenaries, I mean the, the, the first"},{"startTime":2148.361,"endTime":2153.391,"body":"minute that the, the mercenaries decide"},{"startTime":2148.361,"endTime":2153.391,"body":"to turn on you, I was like, you're out."},{"startTime":2154.021,"endTime":2155.101,"body":"They, he's gonna blame you."},{"startTime":2155.101,"endTime":2156.331,"body":"He's not gonna blame the mercenaries."},{"startTime":2156.336,"endTime":2156.421,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2157.051,"endTime":2160.321,"body":"Yeah, somebody decides to pay those"},{"startTime":2157.051,"endTime":2160.321,"body":"mercenaries a little more they're gone."},{"startTime":2160.421,"endTime":2163.551,"body":"That's exactly that's exactly"},{"startTime":2160.421,"endTime":2163.551,"body":"right because you've not made"},{"startTime":2163.551,"endTime":2165.121,"body":"them part of your culture."},{"startTime":2165.121,"endTime":2169.691,"body":"So I was like, I mean be very wary of this"},{"startTime":2165.121,"endTime":2169.691,"body":"attitude of like well, I mean, they're"},{"startTime":2169.731,"endTime":2174.521,"body":"you know, they're a third cheaper than"},{"startTime":2169.731,"endTime":2174.521,"body":"Because I mean after after all said and"},{"startTime":2174.541,"endTime":2178.921,"body":"after you pay the agency fees After you"},{"startTime":2174.541,"endTime":2178.921,"body":"pay whatever taxes after pay whatever like"},{"startTime":2179.161,"endTime":2183.176,"body":"how much actual savings you're getting"},{"startTime":2179.161,"endTime":2183.176,"body":"You know, I mean, the, the tables we"},{"startTime":2183.176,"endTime":2189.716,"body":"looked at real early, I feel were not"},{"startTime":2183.176,"endTime":2189.716,"body":"exactly, I think they were pretty low."},{"startTime":2189.776,"endTime":2190.856,"body":"And I think they were old too."},{"startTime":2190.886,"endTime":2191.846,"body":"I think they were pretty low."},{"startTime":2192.016,"endTime":2193.386,"body":"I think they were a"},{"startTime":2192.016,"endTime":2193.386,"body":"couple years out of date."},{"startTime":2193.426,"endTime":2198.396,"body":"I think in actuality, you can only"},{"startTime":2193.426,"endTime":2198.396,"body":"expect to save maybe 50% of hiring an"},{"startTime":2198.396,"endTime":2200.776,"body":"employee, permanent employee in house."},{"startTime":2201.226,"endTime":2205.286,"body":"And out of that 50%, how much of"},{"startTime":2201.226,"endTime":2205.286,"body":"that money is spent in overhead"},{"startTime":2205.286,"endTime":2209.946,"body":"costs to communicate and collaborate"},{"startTime":2205.286,"endTime":2209.946,"body":"and to, to fill in the gaps."},{"startTime":2210.446,"endTime":2211.816,"body":"And then of those costs."},{"startTime":2212.111,"endTime":2214.621,"body":"Like, what, what, what"},{"startTime":2212.111,"endTime":2214.621,"body":"are you left with, really?"},{"startTime":2214.921,"endTime":2219.921,"body":"Anyway, the, the, the point of this was,"},{"startTime":2214.921,"endTime":2219.921,"body":"that individual that I'm talking about,"},{"startTime":2220.221,"endTime":2226.441,"body":"his, his feeling was, I want to hire"},{"startTime":2220.221,"endTime":2226.441,"body":"people, and then, I want to give them"},{"startTime":2226.631,"endTime":2232.101,"body":"core responsibilities of developers,"},{"startTime":2226.631,"endTime":2232.101,"body":"where their job is just to write code."},{"startTime":2232.586,"endTime":2238.136,"body":"And what I tell them to write code on,"},{"startTime":2232.586,"endTime":2238.136,"body":"and not to quote, distract them, with"},{"startTime":2238.176,"endTime":2241.76,"body":"other activities in the business that"},{"startTime":2238.176,"endTime":2241.76,"body":"takes their quote, hands off keyboards."},{"startTime":2241.894,"endTime":2245.904,"body":"We're being facetious But like that"},{"startTime":2241.894,"endTime":2245.904,"body":"was like he he was a very experienced"},{"startTime":2245.904,"endTime":2250.874,"body":"developer who had graduated over time"},{"startTime":2245.904,"endTime":2250.874,"body":"to higher and higher and higher level"},{"startTime":2250.874,"endTime":2256.264,"body":"supervisory positions Within the"},{"startTime":2250.874,"endTime":2256.264,"body":"development domain and landed in this,"},{"startTime":2256.314,"endTime":2258.864,"body":"in this peer level to me in product."},{"startTime":2260.284,"endTime":2261.764,"body":"I couldn't just discount"},{"startTime":2260.284,"endTime":2261.764,"body":"what he was saying."},{"startTime":2262.404,"endTime":2265.174,"body":"It was like, yes, I understand what"},{"startTime":2262.404,"endTime":2265.174,"body":"you're saying is like, we need hands"},{"startTime":2265.174,"endTime":2268.964,"body":"on keyboards and, and like, I can't"},{"startTime":2265.174,"endTime":2268.964,"body":"have these people like I'm paying"},{"startTime":2268.964,"endTime":2272.294,"body":"these people to develop my solution"},{"startTime":2268.964,"endTime":2272.294,"body":"and to maintain the software I have."},{"startTime":2273.014,"endTime":2277.414,"body":"And I don't want them spending much"},{"startTime":2273.014,"endTime":2277.414,"body":"time chasing down people around the"},{"startTime":2277.424,"endTime":2281.464,"body":"business and being in unproductive"},{"startTime":2277.424,"endTime":2281.464,"body":"meetings where they're not writing code."},{"startTime":2281.664,"endTime":2282.934,"body":"That was his perception."},{"startTime":2282.944,"endTime":2283.244,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2283.444,"endTime":2288.824,"body":"Now listen, my side of the world,"},{"startTime":2283.444,"endTime":2288.824,"body":"every bit about the domain that they."},{"startTime":2289.384,"endTime":2296.574,"body":"are struggling to gain expertise in, I"},{"startTime":2289.384,"endTime":2296.574,"body":"should be helping them gain expertise."},{"startTime":2296.584,"endTime":2298.404,"body":"Hey, we don't understand about"},{"startTime":2296.584,"endTime":2298.404,"body":"this part of the business."},{"startTime":2298.624,"endTime":2301.534,"body":"Well, let me get some users in the"},{"startTime":2298.624,"endTime":2301.534,"body":"room that can help you accelerate"},{"startTime":2301.574,"endTime":2304.894,"body":"and get your understanding to"},{"startTime":2301.574,"endTime":2304.894,"body":"a much deeper level quicker."},{"startTime":2304.954,"endTime":2309.764,"body":"So you have to spend less time, instead"},{"startTime":2304.954,"endTime":2309.764,"body":"of spending a half an investment."},{"startTime":2309.804,"endTime":2310.484,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2310.644,"endTime":2311.659,"body":"So let me, let me, so."},{"startTime":2311.839,"endTime":2315.219,"body":"Let's say we're Brian and Om's"},{"startTime":2311.839,"endTime":2315.219,"body":"software development company."},{"startTime":2315.749,"endTime":2321.329,"body":"We're in the, in the software development"},{"startTime":2315.749,"endTime":2321.329,"body":"business of selling shoes that we, we have"},{"startTime":2321.329,"endTime":2323.289,"body":"the best software that sells shoes online."},{"startTime":2323.649,"endTime":2324.049,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2324.129,"endTime":2325.239,"body":"So I got to do that."},{"startTime":2325.249,"endTime":2326.559,"body":"I got to teach you about shoes."},{"startTime":2326.664,"endTime":2330.297,"body":"I gotta teach you about what shoes are"},{"startTime":2326.664,"endTime":2330.297,"body":"for what specific type of activity."},{"startTime":2330.537,"endTime":2332.287,"body":"I thought these shoes"},{"startTime":2330.537,"endTime":2332.287,"body":"were made for walking."},{"startTime":2332.297,"endTime":2333.987,"body":"Maybe these shoes are made for walking."},{"startTime":2334.117,"endTime":2335.357,"body":"Maybe they're running shoes."},{"startTime":2335.467,"endTime":2336.997,"body":"Maybe they're made for"},{"startTime":2335.467,"endTime":2336.997,"body":"walking all over you."},{"startTime":2337.117,"endTime":2337.567,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2337.567,"endTime":2338.667,"body":"They could be made for anything."},{"startTime":2338.987,"endTime":2340.057,"body":"They're all blue suede shoes."},{"startTime":2340.057,"endTime":2341.987,"body":"The point is, they could"},{"startTime":2340.057,"endTime":2341.987,"body":"be blue suede shoes."},{"startTime":2342.047,"endTime":2343.747,"body":"How do you deal with, how"},{"startTime":2342.047,"endTime":2343.747,"body":"do you upkeep blue suede?"},{"startTime":2344.007,"endTime":2344.747,"body":"That's what I want to know."},{"startTime":2344.997,"endTime":2346.047,"body":"How do you upkeep blue suede shoes?"},{"startTime":2346.057,"endTime":2346.317,"body":"You don't."},{"startTime":2346.347,"endTime":2346.977,"body":"You buy new ones."},{"startTime":2347.282,"endTime":2347.732,"body":"You don't."},{"startTime":2347.742,"endTime":2352.769,"body":"You send every customer a 10% off voucher"},{"startTime":2347.742,"endTime":2352.769,"body":"for a new pair of blue suede shoes."},{"startTime":2352.947,"endTime":2355.787,"body":"The point is I got to teach my"},{"startTime":2352.947,"endTime":2355.787,"body":"developers about the shoe business."},{"startTime":2355.817,"endTime":2356.407,"body":"Yes, you do."},{"startTime":2356.507,"endTime":2359.117,"body":"What is the typical software"},{"startTime":2356.507,"endTime":2359.117,"body":"developer out of South Africa?"},{"startTime":2359.392,"endTime":2364.242,"body":"Know about the shoe making business,"},{"startTime":2359.392,"endTime":2364.242,"body":"whatever the diff of your answer"},{"startTime":2364.242,"endTime":2367.962,"body":"is between what they know and"},{"startTime":2364.242,"endTime":2367.962,"body":"what you, the shoe business owner,"},{"startTime":2367.962,"endTime":2369.819,"body":"knows, you gotta fill in that gap."},{"startTime":2369.866,"endTime":2372.196,"body":"Right, they're not gonna, right?"},{"startTime":2372.226,"endTime":2373.496,"body":"Someone has to fill that gap."},{"startTime":2373.706,"endTime":2375.331,"body":"They're not gonna do that"},{"startTime":2373.706,"endTime":2375.331,"body":"because they're hired hands."},{"startTime":2376.121,"endTime":2377.771,"body":"They're gonna, they're"},{"startTime":2376.121,"endTime":2377.771,"body":"here today, gone tomorrow."},{"startTime":2378.104,"endTime":2379.774,"body":"That would make a great title."},{"startTime":2379.784,"endTime":2382.344,"body":"Like a, a name for a barbershop."},{"startTime":2382.474,"endTime":2383.754,"body":"Hair today, gone tomorrow."},{"startTime":2384.434,"endTime":2384.964,"body":"Nevermind."},{"startTime":2386.684,"endTime":2386.964,"body":"Nevermind."},{"startTime":2387.104,"endTime":2389.444,"body":"That would make a great"},{"startTime":2387.104,"endTime":2389.444,"body":"name for a shoe store."},{"startTime":2389.444,"endTime":2391.964,"body":"I was like, that's a"},{"startTime":2389.444,"endTime":2391.964,"body":"long title for a store."},{"startTime":2392.044,"endTime":2393.004,"body":"My brain just..."},{"startTime":2393.674,"endTime":2394.474,"body":"It'd be interesting."},{"startTime":2394.624,"endTime":2395.234,"body":"It'd be interesting."},{"startTime":2395.598,"endTime":2396.818,"body":"You have all these hired guns."},{"startTime":2397.523,"endTime":2399.443,"body":"You're not willing to teach"},{"startTime":2397.523,"endTime":2399.443,"body":"them about the shoe business,"},{"startTime":2399.443,"endTime":2400.523,"body":"but that's your main business."},{"startTime":2400.943,"endTime":2403.253,"body":"You just want to say, hey,"},{"startTime":2400.943,"endTime":2403.253,"body":"go code what I tell you."},{"startTime":2403.513,"endTime":2405.893,"body":"But all they can do is the minimum"},{"startTime":2403.513,"endTime":2405.893,"body":"of what they tell you, and they"},{"startTime":2405.893,"endTime":2407.103,"body":"don't know if it's right or wrong."},{"startTime":2407.403,"endTime":2409.513,"body":"Because you're unwilling to teach"},{"startTime":2407.403,"endTime":2409.513,"body":"them if it's right or wrong."},{"startTime":2409.663,"endTime":2411.273,"body":"And that was the core of my problem."},{"startTime":2411.473,"endTime":2412.143,"body":"That was the core of my problem."},{"startTime":2413.663,"endTime":2414.243,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2414.623,"endTime":2421.103,"body":"In that scenario, that company can expect"},{"startTime":2414.623,"endTime":2421.103,"body":"a high degree of refactoring because these"},{"startTime":2421.103,"endTime":2422.593,"body":"people don't really know the business."},{"startTime":2422.633,"endTime":2422.803,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2423.113,"endTime":2427.033,"body":"And again, that's my problem with,"},{"startTime":2423.113,"endTime":2427.033,"body":"with the, the very first thing"},{"startTime":2427.033,"endTime":2430.723,"body":"we started in this podcast, the"},{"startTime":2427.033,"endTime":2430.723,"body":"bottom line of the money per hour."},{"startTime":2430.723,"endTime":2433.153,"body":"It takes my problem with the"},{"startTime":2430.723,"endTime":2433.153,"body":"bottom line of the money that"},{"startTime":2433.153,"endTime":2434.663,"body":"it takes is you can track that."},{"startTime":2434.673,"endTime":2435.353,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":2435.743,"endTime":2439.443,"body":"As long as you have a little rework"},{"startTime":2435.743,"endTime":2439.443,"body":"tag in your ALM system that says"},{"startTime":2439.703,"endTime":2442.283,"body":"this, we're doing this because."},{"startTime":2442.573,"endTime":2445.473,"body":"We have to rework this item"},{"startTime":2442.573,"endTime":2445.473,"body":"that we did before because maybe"},{"startTime":2445.473,"endTime":2446.393,"body":"we didn't know or whatever."},{"startTime":2446.573,"endTime":2451.113,"body":"And, and, at that point, now you're"},{"startTime":2446.573,"endTime":2451.113,"body":"playing a bunch of, potentially, based on"},{"startTime":2451.113,"endTime":2452.703,"body":"who raised your item and stuff like that."},{"startTime":2452.983,"endTime":2456.923,"body":"You could be playing a bunch of"},{"startTime":2452.983,"endTime":2456.923,"body":"games with labels and JIRA and"},{"startTime":2456.923,"endTime":2457.813,"body":"reporting and stuff like that."},{"startTime":2457.843,"endTime":2459.733,"body":"I'd, I'd just rather"},{"startTime":2457.843,"endTime":2459.733,"body":"not be in that business."},{"startTime":2460.023,"endTime":2460.873,"body":"I would rather..."},{"startTime":2461.373,"endTime":2464.223,"body":"everybody we onboard, they're"},{"startTime":2461.373,"endTime":2464.223,"body":"part of our culture now."},{"startTime":2464.813,"endTime":2466.443,"body":"We want them to believe in our mission."},{"startTime":2466.983,"endTime":2468.723,"body":"We want them to know what the vision is."},{"startTime":2469.323,"endTime":2470.973,"body":"We want them to talk to our customers."},{"startTime":2472.063,"endTime":2475.983,"body":"anyway I react poorly to this whole like"},{"startTime":2472.063,"endTime":2475.983,"body":"Oh, I want I want to offshore because"},{"startTime":2476.033,"endTime":2479.903,"body":"I want to keep these people focused"},{"startTime":2476.033,"endTime":2479.903,"body":"on the core of what I want them to do."},{"startTime":2479.923,"endTime":2483.363,"body":"Or I want to not distract the"},{"startTime":2479.923,"endTime":2483.363,"body":"core of my business with all these"},{"startTime":2483.363,"endTime":2484.733,"body":"development activities or whatever."},{"startTime":2484.753,"endTime":2485.033,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2485.053,"endTime":2489.263,"body":"I've seen that too, but like, I"},{"startTime":2485.053,"endTime":2489.263,"body":"don't know, I'm thinking, it's,"},{"startTime":2489.283,"endTime":2491.193,"body":"it's very, it's a very myopic view."},{"startTime":2491.193,"endTime":2492.393,"body":"I think I really think it is."},{"startTime":2492.483,"endTime":2493.153,"body":"I really think it is."},{"startTime":2493.153,"endTime":2495.633,"body":"The last thing is like the"},{"startTime":2493.153,"endTime":2495.633,"body":"feeling of direct control."},{"startTime":2495.633,"endTime":2499.763,"body":"Like I, I would rather not offshore"},{"startTime":2495.633,"endTime":2499.763,"body":"so I can control people that I"},{"startTime":2499.763,"endTime":2501.153,"body":"can see that are in the office."},{"startTime":2501.153,"endTime":2504.973,"body":"I would rather not offshore"},{"startTime":2501.153,"endTime":2504.973,"body":"because I don't feel like I"},{"startTime":2504.973,"endTime":2506.363,"body":"have control of those employees."},{"startTime":2506.393,"endTime":2507.793,"body":"I don't know what they're working on."},{"startTime":2508.363,"endTime":2509.293,"body":"I don't know if they're working."},{"startTime":2509.343,"endTime":2509.663,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2509.743,"endTime":2510.033,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":2510.893,"endTime":2512.043,"body":"Again, short term thinking."},{"startTime":2512.253,"endTime":2512.853,"body":"Hey, anyway."},{"startTime":2512.989,"endTime":2515.814,"body":"Speaking of things that don't make"},{"startTime":2512.989,"endTime":2515.814,"body":"sense, I can't believe that we went"},{"startTime":2515.884,"endTime":2520.824,"body":"120 plus episodes and we've never,"},{"startTime":2515.884,"endTime":2520.824,"body":"talked in depth about offshoring."},{"startTime":2520.824,"endTime":2521.884,"body":"It really is surprising."},{"startTime":2522.364,"endTime":2523.154,"body":"You didn't mention it."},{"startTime":2523.254,"endTime":2525.024,"body":"Yeah, but there it is."},{"startTime":2525.044,"endTime":2526.314,"body":"It's out there now, right?"},{"startTime":2526.404,"endTime":2528.774,"body":"In the interwebs soon."},{"startTime":2528.804,"endTime":2532.424,"body":"I know everybody listening to this"},{"startTime":2528.804,"endTime":2532.424,"body":"has had an experience with offshoring."},{"startTime":2532.444,"endTime":2537.334,"body":"So I will be disappointed if you"},{"startTime":2532.444,"endTime":2537.334,"body":"do not make a comment about your"},{"startTime":2537.334,"endTime":2539.564,"body":"experiences with offshoring down below."},{"startTime":2539.564,"endTime":2540.644,"body":"I don't know what I'm doing."},{"startTime":2540.644,"endTime":2544.004,"body":"I guess this is typing,"},{"startTime":2540.644,"endTime":2544.004,"body":"making typing fingers."},{"startTime":2544.304,"endTime":2547.854,"body":"Well, while you're doing that, make"},{"startTime":2544.304,"endTime":2547.854,"body":"sure you subscribe and like our podcast."},{"startTime":2548.304,"endTime":2551.044,"body":"It will make your life a"},{"startTime":2548.304,"endTime":2551.044,"body":"whole lot better, I think."},{"startTime":2551.141,"endTime":2554.841,"body":"The financial numbers"},{"startTime":2551.141,"endTime":2554.841,"body":"told us that it will."},{"startTime":2554.931,"endTime":2556.241,"body":"Yeah, that's exactly it."},{"startTime":2556.301,"endTime":2560.181,"body":"And financials don't lie, that's"},{"startTime":2556.301,"endTime":2560.181,"body":"what we figured out in this podcast."},{"startTime":2560.451,"endTime":2563.561,"body":"I remember working with a team"},{"startTime":2560.451,"endTime":2563.561,"body":"from Central America and they're"},{"startTime":2563.561,"endTime":2566.351,"body":"like, you're the most southern"},{"startTime":2563.561,"endTime":2566.351,"body":"person we've ever talked to."},{"startTime":2566.351,"endTime":2569.611,"body":"And I was like, I, I like, I don't"},{"startTime":2566.351,"endTime":2569.611,"body":"even, I don't even sound that Southern."},{"startTime":2569.711,"endTime":2569.901,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2569.901,"endTime":2570.931,"body":"Like you're so Southern."},{"startTime":2570.931,"endTime":2572.121,"body":"We can barely understand you."},{"startTime":2572.408,"endTime":2572.868,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":2573.188,"endTime":2573.978,"body":"That's hilarious."}]}