{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":1.129,"body":"Let me ask you this."},{"startTime":1.159,"endTime":3.409,"body":"Why are we going agile?"},{"startTime":3.549,"endTime":4.329,"body":"William's here."},{"startTime":4.919,"endTime":5.399,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":5.404,"endTime":7.939,"body":"Today in the house we"},{"startTime":5.404,"endTime":7.939,"body":"have William Kremner."},{"startTime":7.967,"endTime":11.237,"body":"William is here to bring us"},{"startTime":7.967,"endTime":11.237,"body":"his wisdom on all things agile."},{"startTime":11.427,"endTime":15.767,"body":"So we're going to talk about going"},{"startTime":11.427,"endTime":15.767,"body":"agile or what that, whatever that means."},{"startTime":15.767,"endTime":19.197,"body":"We'll get into this in a little"},{"startTime":15.767,"endTime":19.197,"body":"bit here, but great question."},{"startTime":19.197,"endTime":20.407,"body":"Why are we going agile?"},{"startTime":20.637,"endTime":25.127,"body":"Because everybody else is, so we have"},{"startTime":20.637,"endTime":25.127,"body":"to, otherwise we'll get left behind."},{"startTime":25.584,"endTime":29.574,"body":"Or maybe our CIO went to a conference."},{"startTime":30.074,"endTime":35.094,"body":"And came back and said, people there"},{"startTime":30.074,"endTime":35.094,"body":"were talking about being agile, going"},{"startTime":35.094,"endTime":37.524,"body":"agile, doing agile, all of the above."},{"startTime":37.834,"endTime":39.154,"body":"So we should be doing that."},{"startTime":39.644,"endTime":43.464,"body":"I normally don't get cynical until"},{"startTime":39.644,"endTime":43.464,"body":"way, like much later in the podcast."},{"startTime":43.589,"endTime":48.484,"body":"Is this the equivalent of all the"},{"startTime":43.589,"endTime":48.484,"body":"other companies are going agile."},{"startTime":48.484,"endTime":49.564,"body":"So I got to go agile."},{"startTime":49.814,"endTime":51.154,"body":"He also and right."},{"startTime":51.184,"endTime":54.024,"body":"We have to, because we'll get left behind."},{"startTime":54.554,"endTime":58.354,"body":"We have to do it was."},{"startTime":58.374,"endTime":61.944,"body":"It was everybody was doing"},{"startTime":58.374,"endTime":61.944,"body":"management by objectives because"},{"startTime":62.084,"endTime":64.024,"body":"Intel said it's the best thing ever."},{"startTime":64.454,"endTime":66.114,"body":"Andy Groves came up with that."},{"startTime":66.424,"endTime":71.724,"body":"And so he just put an \"i\" in front and"},{"startTime":66.424,"endTime":71.724,"body":"it was now iMBO Intel management by"},{"startTime":71.724,"endTime":75.814,"body":"objective, it was taught in business"},{"startTime":71.724,"endTime":75.814,"body":"schools all over the world and everybody"},{"startTime":75.814,"endTime":79.704,"body":"wanted to do it and they did it, in the"},{"startTime":75.814,"endTime":79.704,"body":"world was supposed to be magically a"},{"startTime":79.704,"endTime":81.644,"body":"better place, except that didn't happen."},{"startTime":81.744,"endTime":83.914,"body":"But coming back to why,"},{"startTime":81.744,"endTime":83.914,"body":"why are we going agile?"},{"startTime":83.954,"endTime":84.264,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":84.514,"endTime":88.954,"body":"Have we identified a pain point"},{"startTime":84.514,"endTime":88.954,"body":"that we're trying to resolve that we"},{"startTime":88.954,"endTime":91.244,"body":"think agile will be the elixir for."},{"startTime":91.864,"endTime":93.584,"body":"What are the typical pain points?"},{"startTime":93.834,"endTime":96.974,"body":"The typical pain points are"},{"startTime":93.834,"endTime":96.974,"body":"usually inadequacies from within"},{"startTime":97.094,"endTime":99.974,"body":"rather than, actual pain points."},{"startTime":99.984,"endTime":101.254,"body":"So what about this?"},{"startTime":101.504,"endTime":105.294,"body":"Leadership comes along and says,"},{"startTime":101.504,"endTime":105.294,"body":"we're always missing our deadlines."},{"startTime":105.544,"endTime":110.204,"body":"It's always costing more than we"},{"startTime":105.544,"endTime":110.204,"body":"thought and we're just slipping further"},{"startTime":110.204,"endTime":111.874,"body":"and further behind our competition."},{"startTime":112.124,"endTime":115.714,"body":"How about those as leadership"},{"startTime":112.124,"endTime":115.714,"body":"centric reasons as to why?"},{"startTime":115.724,"endTime":117.054,"body":"Anyway, those are good ones."},{"startTime":117.054,"endTime":121.614,"body":"I was going to say on the, on the, the"},{"startTime":117.054,"endTime":121.614,"body":"podcast, I keep another podcast along with"},{"startTime":121.614,"endTime":122.974,"body":"Deming, the one that I keep pushing off."},{"startTime":122.974,"endTime":127.474,"body":"They say one I have is with,"},{"startTime":122.974,"endTime":127.474,"body":"Tricia, to talk about being the"},{"startTime":127.804,"endTime":130.874,"body":"company's first product manager hire."},{"startTime":131.349,"endTime":135.259,"body":"That's that's a big reason I've seen a"},{"startTime":131.349,"endTime":135.259,"body":"company even look for product managers"},{"startTime":135.269,"endTime":140.379,"body":"is we don't really know how to translate"},{"startTime":135.269,"endTime":140.379,"body":"What we want to the developers or we're"},{"startTime":140.379,"endTime":144.639,"body":"having all these problems with the you"},{"startTime":140.379,"endTime":144.639,"body":"know Things being over budget or over"},{"startTime":144.639,"endTime":148.364,"body":"time or whatever and we don't we feel"},{"startTime":144.639,"endTime":148.364,"body":"like we're not communicating well With"},{"startTime":148.364,"endTime":152.504,"body":"our developers, so we're gonna bring"},{"startTime":148.364,"endTime":152.504,"body":"in somebody in product to do product"},{"startTime":152.524,"endTime":157.844,"body":"magic it It's arguable whether this"},{"startTime":152.524,"endTime":157.844,"body":"is the podcast that really dig into"},{"startTime":157.844,"endTime":161.764,"body":"what I'm saying right now, but but"},{"startTime":157.844,"endTime":161.764,"body":"the point is it manifests in The the"},{"startTime":161.764,"endTime":163.614,"body":"whole agile thing has product managers."},{"startTime":163.674,"endTime":168.864,"body":"We need like a sliver of that Of that"},{"startTime":163.674,"endTime":168.864,"body":"magic in to fix our communication with"},{"startTime":168.874,"endTime":171.894,"body":"development problem, which has never been"},{"startTime":168.874,"endTime":171.894,"body":"a communication with development problem."},{"startTime":171.904,"endTime":174.884,"body":"It's a problem with priorities and"},{"startTime":171.904,"endTime":174.884,"body":"roadmaps and things changing and"},{"startTime":174.894,"endTime":177.114,"body":"you know business not being clear"},{"startTime":174.894,"endTime":177.114,"body":"and a whole bunch of other stuff."},{"startTime":177.384,"endTime":180.854,"body":"I think that segues into, sorry, I"},{"startTime":177.384,"endTime":180.854,"body":"think that segues into that other"},{"startTime":180.864,"endTime":186.174,"body":"podcast we did on the The business's"},{"startTime":180.864,"endTime":186.174,"body":"mission, vision, strategy, etc."},{"startTime":186.544,"endTime":189.354,"body":"If that's not clear, really clear."},{"startTime":189.824,"endTime":193.824,"body":"If that's fuzzy, then you're likely"},{"startTime":189.824,"endTime":193.824,"body":"to be on this slippery slope as well."},{"startTime":193.844,"endTime":199.034,"body":"Somebody somewhere figured out that"},{"startTime":193.844,"endTime":199.034,"body":"the old adage applies, and it's this."},{"startTime":199.344,"endTime":201.674,"body":"If you keep on doing what"},{"startTime":199.344,"endTime":201.674,"body":"you've done, you're always"},{"startTime":201.674,"endTime":202.824,"body":"going to get what you've got."},{"startTime":202.934,"endTime":204.974,"body":"And what they've got isn't good enough."},{"startTime":205.514,"endTime":210.294,"body":"So somebody's looking for a"},{"startTime":205.514,"endTime":210.294,"body":"better way, somehow, somewhere."},{"startTime":210.674,"endTime":214.394,"body":"And they've heard this phrase,"},{"startTime":210.674,"endTime":214.394,"body":"Agile, somewhere, maybe on the"},{"startTime":214.394,"endTime":218.994,"body":"news, maybe at a conference,"},{"startTime":214.394,"endTime":218.994,"body":"maybe from a golf buddy, whatever."},{"startTime":219.644,"endTime":223.161,"body":"And they're interested in delving into it."},{"startTime":223.601,"endTime":227.111,"body":"Because it just might be the"},{"startTime":223.601,"endTime":227.111,"body":"silver bullet they're looking for."},{"startTime":227.361,"endTime":231.101,"body":"So, yeah, so Om and Brian's software"},{"startTime":227.361,"endTime":231.101,"body":"development company has decided"},{"startTime":231.111,"endTime":232.581,"body":"now, right, we're going agile."},{"startTime":232.721,"endTime":234.491,"body":"So that, that's, that's done."},{"startTime":234.781,"endTime":235.791,"body":"We're going agile."},{"startTime":235.791,"endTime":236.561,"body":"Now what's next?"},{"startTime":236.771,"endTime":238.341,"body":"Well, it's probably for those reasons."},{"startTime":238.371,"endTime":240.631,"body":"It's probably for the"},{"startTime":238.371,"endTime":240.631,"body":"reasons that William stated."},{"startTime":241.221,"endTime":242.561,"body":"We're not delivering fast enough."},{"startTime":242.856,"endTime":247.046,"body":"Or like we've noticed an influx of"},{"startTime":242.856,"endTime":247.046,"body":"competitors and we can't, quickly"},{"startTime":247.046,"endTime":250.756,"body":"turn things around as quick as they"},{"startTime":247.046,"endTime":250.756,"body":"seem to be turning things around."},{"startTime":250.796,"endTime":253.456,"body":"We may be feeling some pain"},{"startTime":250.796,"endTime":253.456,"body":"somewhere too, I feel, right?"},{"startTime":253.456,"endTime":256.876,"body":"Like maybe we're, we've got"},{"startTime":253.456,"endTime":256.876,"body":"customers leaving us, right?"},{"startTime":256.896,"endTime":260.106,"body":"Or our market share is"},{"startTime":256.896,"endTime":260.106,"body":"dwindling, for example."},{"startTime":260.126,"endTime":264.496,"body":"There's got to be some pain somewhere"},{"startTime":260.126,"endTime":264.496,"body":"that compels you to look at."},{"startTime":265.311,"endTime":266.811,"body":"Wanting to make a change, right?"},{"startTime":267.061,"endTime":270.501,"body":"Our stuff's breaking down"},{"startTime":267.061,"endTime":270.501,"body":"in the hands of our users."},{"startTime":271.101,"endTime":274.771,"body":"They're downloading our software"},{"startTime":271.101,"endTime":274.771,"body":"in the thousands and thousands."},{"startTime":274.771,"endTime":275.301,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":275.381,"endTime":278.511,"body":"But then, also, they're"},{"startTime":275.381,"endTime":278.511,"body":"uninstalling our software."},{"startTime":278.861,"endTime":279.201,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":279.431,"endTime":281.501,"body":"So, where's the problem, right?"},{"startTime":281.501,"endTime":282.401,"body":"We figured out that."},{"startTime":282.411,"endTime":283.951,"body":"Let's say we know that there's a problem."},{"startTime":283.951,"endTime":284.781,"body":"We need to change."},{"startTime":284.781,"endTime":285.601,"body":"We need to be agile."},{"startTime":285.661,"endTime":288.731,"body":"So, now, how?"},{"startTime":288.901,"endTime":289.471,"body":"What's next?"},{"startTime":289.481,"endTime":290.441,"body":"How do we become..."},{"startTime":290.691,"endTime":295.031,"body":"Well, first of all, what does that"},{"startTime":290.691,"endTime":295.031,"body":"even mean that we need to go agile?"},{"startTime":295.651,"endTime":296.101,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":296.461,"endTime":297.161,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":297.161,"endTime":301.701,"body":"Does that mean we change a"},{"startTime":297.161,"endTime":301.701,"body":"specific part of the organization"},{"startTime":301.781,"endTime":303.271,"body":"that works in a different way?"},{"startTime":303.301,"endTime":306.411,"body":"Do we change more parts"},{"startTime":303.301,"endTime":306.411,"body":"of the organization?"},{"startTime":306.421,"endTime":309.211,"body":"Do we change the whole organization?"},{"startTime":309.351,"endTime":310.691,"body":"No, no, no, no."},{"startTime":310.781,"endTime":313.291,"body":"You cross out the word PMO."},{"startTime":313.781,"endTime":317.441,"body":"And you put the word Agilist in"},{"startTime":313.781,"endTime":317.441,"body":"there and that fixes everything."},{"startTime":317.491,"endTime":319.931,"body":"Or just prefix Agile in front of PMO."},{"startTime":320.011,"endTime":321.121,"body":"Agile PMO."},{"startTime":321.161,"endTime":321.521,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":321.551,"endTime":324.011,"body":"Yeah, that'll fix everything, right guys?"},{"startTime":324.411,"endTime":325.031,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":325.621,"endTime":325.701,"body":"Right there."},{"startTime":326.111,"endTime":327.411,"body":"I don't think this is fixing things."},{"startTime":327.661,"endTime":328.181,"body":"Oh wait."},{"startTime":328.511,"endTime":329.711,"body":"We need to do more?"},{"startTime":329.961,"endTime":331.101,"body":"Do we need more, Brian?"},{"startTime":331.411,"endTime":332.821,"body":"I don't, but wait, there's more!"},{"startTime":332.821,"endTime":333.361,"body":"There's more!"},{"startTime":333.611,"endTime":334.621,"body":"Operators are standing by."},{"startTime":334.621,"endTime":336.971,"body":"That's right, operators are"},{"startTime":334.621,"endTime":336.971,"body":"standing by to take your money."},{"startTime":337.161,"endTime":341.191,"body":"I, like the transition from why to"},{"startTime":337.161,"endTime":341.191,"body":"how, this is probably the trickiest"},{"startTime":341.191,"endTime":343.971,"body":"one, the transition between why to"},{"startTime":341.191,"endTime":343.971,"body":"how, because I'm not even certain"},{"startTime":343.971,"endTime":345.931,"body":"at this point if we've got buy in."},{"startTime":346.376,"endTime":348.626,"body":"That there is a problem"},{"startTime":346.376,"endTime":348.626,"body":"that needs to be fixed."},{"startTime":348.626,"endTime":355.326,"body":"'cause you're get, if, if you're not real"},{"startTime":348.626,"endTime":355.326,"body":"solid on this jump, like you're sabotaging"},{"startTime":355.326,"endTime":357.817,"body":"like this, this , this is, sorry."},{"startTime":357.817,"endTime":359.587,"body":"It's not cool to not complete my idea."},{"startTime":359.687,"endTime":362.507,"body":"I was thinking about when I built"},{"startTime":359.687,"endTime":362.507,"body":"the, when I built my shower, like"},{"startTime":362.897,"endTime":367.007,"body":"the, I, I had a wall that was"},{"startTime":362.897,"endTime":367.007,"body":"like a, like an eighth of an inch."},{"startTime":367.237,"endTime":368.767,"body":"Maybe it was like a 16th of an inch, like."},{"startTime":369.147,"endTime":372.407,"body":"Not quite flat and I was"},{"startTime":369.147,"endTime":372.407,"body":"like, it's all right."},{"startTime":372.407,"endTime":375.857,"body":"I'll figure it out But the problem is"},{"startTime":372.407,"endTime":375.857,"body":"that like at the top of the wall It's"},{"startTime":375.857,"endTime":379.877,"body":"a sixteenth of an inch that that just"},{"startTime":375.857,"endTime":379.877,"body":"gets wider and wider the further down"},{"startTime":379.877,"endTime":383.857,"body":"the wall that you go so by the time I"},{"startTime":379.877,"endTime":383.857,"body":"got to the bottom it was a big problem"},{"startTime":384.357,"endTime":388.857,"body":"and I had to redo it to be flat and I"},{"startTime":384.357,"endTime":388.857,"body":"really didn't want to so I took the lazy"},{"startTime":388.857,"endTime":394.342,"body":"route and I didn't do it and Everything"},{"startTime":388.857,"endTime":394.342,"body":"I did On that project got harder and"},{"startTime":394.352,"endTime":398.242,"body":"harder and harder So the further down"},{"startTime":394.352,"endTime":398.242,"body":"I go what we're telling everybody is"},{"startTime":398.272,"endTime":399.932,"body":"don't come to your house for a shower."},{"startTime":400.012,"endTime":401.222,"body":"Caulking is a wonderful thing."},{"startTime":401.472,"endTime":408.232,"body":"So, so I, having decided that,"},{"startTime":401.472,"endTime":408.232,"body":"you want to be agile, go agile, do"},{"startTime":408.232,"endTime":409.842,"body":"agile, however, whatever, right."},{"startTime":410.092,"endTime":414.652,"body":"Having decided that, I think many"},{"startTime":410.092,"endTime":414.652,"body":"organizations that have not previously"},{"startTime":414.652,"endTime":417.862,"body":"considered that struggle because"},{"startTime":414.652,"endTime":417.862,"body":"they say, well, how do we do this?"},{"startTime":417.922,"endTime":419.502,"body":"Do we know what that means?"},{"startTime":420.042,"endTime":420.402,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":420.442,"endTime":423.102,"body":"And they look to the left, they"},{"startTime":420.442,"endTime":423.102,"body":"look to the right, and they"},{"startTime":423.102,"endTime":426.912,"body":"say, Well, we don't have that"},{"startTime":423.102,"endTime":426.912,"body":"expertise, that knowledge in house."},{"startTime":427.502,"endTime":430.252,"body":"So one option is, is to rent."},{"startTime":430.552,"endTime":431.422,"body":"Bring in somebody."},{"startTime":431.877,"endTime":437.947,"body":"Let's bring in an expert to tell us how to"},{"startTime":431.877,"endTime":437.947,"body":"transform our business to be more agile."},{"startTime":438.587,"endTime":444.317,"body":"Even before we get there, I think"},{"startTime":438.587,"endTime":444.317,"body":"the person that is having this"},{"startTime":444.567,"endTime":450.317,"body":"thought at the beginning needs to"},{"startTime":444.567,"endTime":450.317,"body":"talk to other leadership within the"},{"startTime":450.317,"endTime":456.657,"body":"business and say, if we could find a"},{"startTime":450.317,"endTime":456.657,"body":"better way to build our mousetraps,"},{"startTime":456.907,"endTime":459.337,"body":"would you be on side with the idea?"},{"startTime":459.587,"endTime":466.027,"body":"And we're talking about how, for me,"},{"startTime":459.587,"endTime":466.027,"body":"the starting point of the how is getting"},{"startTime":466.047,"endTime":471.577,"body":"enough leadership buy in at the conceptual"},{"startTime":466.047,"endTime":471.577,"body":"level before you do anything before"},{"startTime":471.577,"endTime":475.967,"body":"you go and find an expert or go to more"},{"startTime":471.577,"endTime":475.967,"body":"conferences or anything of that nature."},{"startTime":476.482,"endTime":483.812,"body":"So, you build up a power base, so"},{"startTime":476.482,"endTime":483.812,"body":"to speak, of, folks across the, the"},{"startTime":483.812,"endTime":489.662,"body":"enterprise, who are saying, Well, I'm"},{"startTime":483.812,"endTime":489.662,"body":"not sold yet, but if it would work, and"},{"startTime":489.662,"endTime":491.642,"body":"if you can show me how it would work."},{"startTime":491.947,"endTime":497.287,"body":"Then I might be interested in supporting"},{"startTime":491.947,"endTime":497.287,"body":"it because in my experience, if one"},{"startTime":497.287,"endTime":504.807,"body":"sponsor just goes off on their own,"},{"startTime":497.287,"endTime":504.807,"body":"without breadth of conceptual thought"},{"startTime":504.817,"endTime":509.337,"body":"across the enterprise, then what you end"},{"startTime":504.817,"endTime":509.337,"body":"up with is resentment or, well, that's"},{"startTime":509.337,"endTime":512.827,"body":"not my idea, so I'm not going to get"},{"startTime":509.337,"endTime":512.827,"body":"behind it and politics come into play."},{"startTime":513.307,"endTime":517.857,"body":"So that starting point for me,"},{"startTime":513.307,"endTime":517.857,"body":"before you do anything is talk"},{"startTime":517.857,"endTime":519.437,"body":"to your folks and say, well."},{"startTime":519.687,"endTime":522.667,"body":"We might have a, the opportunity"},{"startTime":519.687,"endTime":522.667,"body":"to build a better mousetrap here"},{"startTime":522.677,"endTime":524.637,"body":"if we could go this Agile route."},{"startTime":524.912,"endTime":526.422,"body":"Would you be on side with the play?"},{"startTime":526.672,"endTime":530.142,"body":"Yeah, I want to, fundamentally I"},{"startTime":526.672,"endTime":530.142,"body":"agree with you, but for now I'm"},{"startTime":530.142,"endTime":533.512,"body":"going to take that contrarian"},{"startTime":530.142,"endTime":533.512,"body":"view because we are arguing Agile."},{"startTime":533.842,"endTime":537.682,"body":"I'm going to say, let's say we're"},{"startTime":533.842,"endTime":537.682,"body":"peers, okay, and you come to me"},{"startTime":537.682,"endTime":540.102,"body":"and say, Are you on side with me?"},{"startTime":540.172,"endTime":542.742,"body":"We're going to be Agile, right?"},{"startTime":543.652,"endTime":546.347,"body":"And I've never really done that."},{"startTime":546.547,"endTime":547.967,"body":"You know, I don't know what that means."},{"startTime":548.787,"endTime":551.127,"body":"I'm going to say, sure,"},{"startTime":548.787,"endTime":551.127,"body":"William, I'm right behind you."},{"startTime":551.377,"endTime":552.027,"body":"It's your budget."},{"startTime":552.657,"endTime":553.177,"body":"Go for it."},{"startTime":553.217,"endTime":553.967,"body":"I'm right behind you."},{"startTime":554.607,"endTime":554.917,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":555.197,"endTime":555.877,"body":"I've seen that."},{"startTime":555.907,"endTime":558.947,"body":"That's why I'm kind of"},{"startTime":555.907,"endTime":558.947,"body":"taking that, that approach."},{"startTime":558.947,"endTime":561.047,"body":"People will say yes."},{"startTime":561.467,"endTime":565.227,"body":"You'll, you'll get the head nods,"},{"startTime":561.467,"endTime":565.227,"body":"but are they really bought into it?"},{"startTime":565.297,"endTime":568.607,"body":"And so here's how one might address that."},{"startTime":569.207,"endTime":572.257,"body":"Instead of just saying, I've heard"},{"startTime":569.207,"endTime":572.257,"body":"about this thing called agile."},{"startTime":572.337,"endTime":575.917,"body":"It might be the way we can"},{"startTime":572.337,"endTime":575.917,"body":"build a better mousetrap."},{"startTime":576.107,"endTime":577.507,"body":"What if I came to you and said."},{"startTime":577.757,"endTime":582.887,"body":"Here's what I think it can do, not only"},{"startTime":577.757,"endTime":582.887,"body":"for me and my part of the company, but"},{"startTime":582.897,"endTime":585.147,"body":"here's how I think it's a win for you."},{"startTime":585.397,"endTime":590.647,"body":"So a little, a little bit of, proper prior"},{"startTime":585.397,"endTime":590.647,"body":"planning prevents piss poor performance."},{"startTime":590.822,"endTime":591.507,"body":"So I..."},{"startTime":592.007,"endTime":595.347,"body":"I would, I would be a little bit,"},{"startTime":592.007,"endTime":595.347,"body":"thoughtful about how I approached"},{"startTime":595.347,"endTime":599.327,"body":"my colleagues and I'd start to"},{"startTime":595.347,"endTime":599.327,"body":"tease out what might be in it"},{"startTime":599.327,"endTime":601.117,"body":"for them if we went this route."},{"startTime":601.427,"endTime":602.757,"body":"Yeah, I, I concur with that."},{"startTime":602.757,"endTime":607.507,"body":"If, if I can see what's in it for me"},{"startTime":602.757,"endTime":607.507,"body":"as your peer, I might be more open to,"},{"startTime":607.947,"endTime":611.057,"body":"actually giving you my support, right?"},{"startTime":611.307,"endTime":616.567,"body":"But there comes a point where"},{"startTime":611.307,"endTime":616.567,"body":"you, as this, Champion of Agile,"},{"startTime":616.677,"endTime":621.537,"body":"right, will run into roadblocks"},{"startTime":616.677,"endTime":621.537,"body":"and they're not blatant roadblocks."},{"startTime":621.577,"endTime":624.607,"body":"Like I said, people will nod up"},{"startTime":621.577,"endTime":624.607,"body":"and down and they'll say, yep,"},{"startTime":624.657,"endTime":625.887,"body":"yep, we're right there with you."},{"startTime":626.037,"endTime":628.277,"body":"And then they'll just go back"},{"startTime":626.037,"endTime":628.277,"body":"to doing what they're doing."},{"startTime":628.317,"endTime":629.647,"body":"Yeah, absolutely right."},{"startTime":630.007,"endTime":631.197,"body":"I couldn't agree with you more."},{"startTime":631.477,"endTime":635.347,"body":"At some point, you're going"},{"startTime":631.477,"endTime":635.347,"body":"to run into, political..."},{"startTime":635.852,"endTime":643.302,"body":"Resistance in the organization and"},{"startTime":635.852,"endTime":643.302,"body":"the, the champion of going agile has"},{"startTime":643.302,"endTime":647.102,"body":"the responsibility, the burden of"},{"startTime":643.302,"endTime":647.102,"body":"proof, if you will, of showing the"},{"startTime":647.102,"endTime":649.532,"body":"organization how there's a better way."},{"startTime":649.977,"endTime":654.707,"body":"But, I'm, I'm saying this to the"},{"startTime":649.977,"endTime":654.707,"body":"viewers, don't think for one moment"},{"startTime":654.717,"endTime":656.317,"body":"that this is an easy process."},{"startTime":656.617,"endTime":658.477,"body":"Oh, we're going to go agile and that's it."},{"startTime":658.477,"endTime":659.737,"body":"Get it sorted next week."},{"startTime":659.797,"endTime":661.977,"body":"Next week we're doing agile."},{"startTime":662.367,"endTime":663.547,"body":"Doesn't happen that way."},{"startTime":664.197,"endTime":667.317,"body":"And you don't always get"},{"startTime":664.197,"endTime":667.317,"body":"that from the textbooks."},{"startTime":667.443,"endTime":667.753,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":667.903,"endTime":668.173,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":668.283,"endTime":670.973,"body":"It can take, it can take many months of."},{"startTime":671.443,"endTime":677.873,"body":"Persuading, positioning, looking"},{"startTime":671.443,"endTime":677.873,"body":"for advantages to share with people"},{"startTime":677.903,"endTime":679.613,"body":"so that they start to buy in."},{"startTime":680.543,"endTime":681.533,"body":"Certainly agree with that."},{"startTime":681.533,"endTime":686.873,"body":"I think as a proponent,"},{"startTime":681.533,"endTime":686.873,"body":"initiator or champion of agility."},{"startTime":687.458,"endTime":691.338,"body":"You need to be ready to roll up"},{"startTime":687.458,"endTime":691.338,"body":"your sleeves and dive in the icy"},{"startTime":691.338,"endTime":696.398,"body":"waters and say, let me be the first"},{"startTime":691.338,"endTime":696.398,"body":"one to try this new thing out."},{"startTime":696.798,"endTime":700.808,"body":"And then I'll show you how it works"},{"startTime":696.798,"endTime":700.808,"body":"for us and it will work for all of us."},{"startTime":700.888,"endTime":701.228,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":701.988,"endTime":706.678,"body":"So you are the one who is taking"},{"startTime":701.988,"endTime":706.678,"body":"that initial jump, if you will."},{"startTime":706.938,"endTime":713.858,"body":"You're taking that, that initial risk"},{"startTime":706.938,"endTime":713.858,"body":"of exploring ways to become more agile."},{"startTime":713.938,"endTime":717.428,"body":"And then you can say to the others,"},{"startTime":713.938,"endTime":717.428,"body":"look, we tried this and it worked for us."},{"startTime":717.943,"endTime":718.963,"body":"It might work for you."},{"startTime":719.383,"endTime":723.763,"body":"So really, it's it's lead by"},{"startTime":719.383,"endTime":723.763,"body":"example, be the first right because"},{"startTime":723.763,"endTime":726.923,"body":"you're not going to get everybody"},{"startTime":723.763,"endTime":726.923,"body":"on your side linking arms with you."},{"startTime":727.283,"endTime":729.793,"body":"That's just doesn't have"},{"startTime":727.283,"endTime":729.793,"body":"a pilot, a pilot program."},{"startTime":729.953,"endTime":730.513,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":730.513,"endTime":734.793,"body":"Yeah, a pilot in a short term"},{"startTime":730.513,"endTime":734.793,"body":"and it'll just do the pilot and"},{"startTime":734.793,"endTime":740.433,"body":"show results from that and then"},{"startTime":734.793,"endTime":740.433,"body":"evangelize it across the org, right."},{"startTime":740.823,"endTime":745.713,"body":"From my experience, It usually, it is"},{"startTime":740.823,"endTime":745.713,"body":"the development department or a subset"},{"startTime":745.713,"endTime":749.793,"body":"of development department or a segment"},{"startTime":745.713,"endTime":749.793,"body":"of the business basically that, that"},{"startTime":749.833,"endTime":754.903,"body":"quote goes agile, like bottom up or"},{"startTime":749.833,"endTime":754.903,"body":"rallies around some particular leader"},{"startTime":755.043,"endTime":758.923,"body":"who runs that just that one department"},{"startTime":755.043,"endTime":758.923,"body":"and then they're the one and then"},{"startTime":758.933,"endTime":762.083,"body":"agility in the org is a bubble of agility"},{"startTime":758.933,"endTime":762.083,"body":"and everything, everything that comes"},{"startTime":762.083,"endTime":763.993,"body":"before and everything that comes after."},{"startTime":764.178,"endTime":767.178,"body":"is still the old school method."},{"startTime":767.458,"endTime":770.858,"body":"And then that basically becomes"},{"startTime":767.458,"endTime":770.858,"body":"ingrained like that, that, well, from"},{"startTime":770.858,"endTime":772.318,"body":"what I've seen, that's most people's."},{"startTime":772.568,"endTime":776.308,"body":"Quote, implementation of whatever that"},{"startTime":772.568,"endTime":776.308,"body":"they're, whatever pilot they roll out"},{"startTime":776.558,"endTime":781.338,"body":"because it was never sponsored truly at"},{"startTime":776.558,"endTime":781.338,"body":"the top, and because whoever is driving"},{"startTime":781.338,"endTime":786.308,"body":"the, the, the, the urgency, whoever's"},{"startTime":781.338,"endTime":786.308,"body":"driving the need for this change, never"},{"startTime":786.308,"endTime":789.178,"body":"really spread the success of the program."},{"startTime":789.188,"endTime":790.858,"body":"Like, it never goes to"},{"startTime":789.188,"endTime":790.858,"body":"any other departments."},{"startTime":790.908,"endTime":797.318,"body":"If you are, if you're in a quote, agile"},{"startTime":790.908,"endTime":797.318,"body":"team right now, but your finance is still"},{"startTime":797.318,"endTime":802.728,"body":"the old, once a year got to beg for money"},{"startTime":797.318,"endTime":802.728,"body":"model, if you don't use it, you lose all"},{"startTime":802.728,"endTime":808.418,"body":"your money and then your users are going"},{"startTime":802.728,"endTime":808.418,"body":"through like a formal UAT phase and , you"},{"startTime":808.418,"endTime":813.478,"body":"don't talk to users and also you're not in"},{"startTime":808.418,"endTime":813.478,"body":"control of your, who you're, who's on your"},{"startTime":813.478,"endTime":817.848,"body":"teams and who can come on to and leave"},{"startTime":813.478,"endTime":817.848,"body":"your team, all this stuff on both sides."},{"startTime":818.588,"endTime":822.978,"body":"You're now in a, a real"},{"startTime":818.588,"endTime":822.978,"body":"fragile, agile world."},{"startTime":823.458,"endTime":824.538,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":824.568,"endTime":829.838,"body":"And, just talking about teams for a"},{"startTime":824.568,"endTime":829.838,"body":"moment at this early stage, conveying"},{"startTime":829.843,"endTime":834.438,"body":"the concept of a cross-functional"},{"startTime":829.843,"endTime":834.438,"body":"team and what that means in practice"},{"startTime":834.738,"endTime":838.128,"body":"can be really challenging for"},{"startTime":834.738,"endTime":838.128,"body":"people to accept, for leadership to"},{"startTime":838.128,"endTime":840.498,"body":"accept, because, change is scary."},{"startTime":840.498,"endTime":842.088,"body":"Change implies risk."},{"startTime":842.328,"endTime":842.418,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":842.748,"endTime":847.803,"body":"and this idea of restructuring to go with"},{"startTime":842.748,"endTime":847.803,"body":"a fully cross-functional team, takes some"},{"startTime":847.813,"endTime":850.443,"body":"selling on the part of the agile champion."},{"startTime":850.633,"endTime":854.763,"body":"if you think about that, cause I've,"},{"startTime":850.633,"endTime":854.763,"body":"I've, I've thought about this, like"},{"startTime":855.283,"endTime":857.833,"body":"around the point in my career where I was"},{"startTime":855.283,"endTime":857.833,"body":"like, I don't want to be an agile coach."},{"startTime":857.873,"endTime":859.013,"body":"I'm like, I like product better."},{"startTime":859.363,"endTime":860.323,"body":"You can get things done."},{"startTime":860.733,"endTime":864.633,"body":"People listen, like the, the, like you're"},{"startTime":860.733,"endTime":864.633,"body":"relieving immediate pains of the business."},{"startTime":864.633,"endTime":868.233,"body":"And they like it like at that"},{"startTime":864.633,"endTime":868.233,"body":"point I, I was like, yeah, I"},{"startTime":868.233,"endTime":869.253,"body":"should just stay in product."},{"startTime":869.253,"endTime":869.913,"body":"I like this."},{"startTime":870.333,"endTime":873.903,"body":"I can, I can say that if we don't"},{"startTime":870.333,"endTime":873.903,"body":"do this experiment, we, we won't get"},{"startTime":873.903,"endTime":876.983,"body":"the knowledge and if we don't get the"},{"startTime":873.903,"endTime":876.983,"body":"knowledge, it's gonna cost this much."},{"startTime":876.983,"endTime":879.383,"body":"And I can give dollar figures"},{"startTime":876.983,"endTime":879.383,"body":"and it's super easy to do that."},{"startTime":879.623,"endTime":880.253,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":880.573,"endTime":880.933,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":880.933,"endTime":883.148,"body":"'cause when I'm throwing money"},{"startTime":880.933,"endTime":883.148,"body":"around, When I'm making it"},{"startTime":883.148,"endTime":884.248,"body":"rain, that's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":884.498,"endTime":887.608,"body":"When I'm using money, like everyone"},{"startTime":884.498,"endTime":887.608,"body":"listens, that's it's much easier."},{"startTime":887.608,"endTime":888.158,"body":"Let me put it that way."},{"startTime":888.158,"endTime":890.888,"body":"It's much easier to state my case."},{"startTime":891.088,"endTime":891.888,"body":"I certainly agree."},{"startTime":891.888,"endTime":892.588,"body":"It is right."},{"startTime":892.618,"endTime":895.668,"body":"But that said, there's no reason why."},{"startTime":895.918,"endTime":898.938,"body":"Agile coach worth their salt"},{"startTime":895.918,"endTime":898.938,"body":"shouldn't be able to do the same"},{"startTime":898.938,"endTime":900.568,"body":"thing and speak their language."},{"startTime":900.578,"endTime":901.888,"body":"You need to be able to do that."},{"startTime":902.188,"endTime":905.218,"body":"You know, if you're going in there"},{"startTime":902.188,"endTime":905.218,"body":"saying, well, we can deliver X"},{"startTime":905.218,"endTime":908.278,"body":"number of story points and all that,"},{"startTime":905.218,"endTime":908.278,"body":"you missed the mark completely."},{"startTime":908.688,"endTime":909.438,"body":"It's to your point."},{"startTime":909.813,"endTime":915.183,"body":"Talk about everything with leadership in"},{"startTime":909.813,"endTime":915.183,"body":"a language they understand, which boils"},{"startTime":915.183,"endTime":917.923,"body":"down to only one thing, dollars, right?"},{"startTime":917.923,"endTime":921.763,"body":"If you can speak that, an agile coach"},{"startTime":917.923,"endTime":921.763,"body":"should be able to convey that message."},{"startTime":921.813,"endTime":925.763,"body":"Listen, I agree with you, but again,"},{"startTime":921.813,"endTime":925.763,"body":"here, here we go back to the spirit"},{"startTime":925.763,"endTime":928.643,"body":"of, Oh, look, it's like a, we're like"},{"startTime":925.763,"endTime":928.643,"body":"a new show where we all argue each"},{"startTime":928.753,"endTime":930.123,"body":"other and nobody's makes any points."},{"startTime":930.373,"endTime":931.653,"body":"Like, I, I agree with you."},{"startTime":931.863,"endTime":932.423,"body":"However."},{"startTime":932.788,"endTime":934.038,"body":"The reality is number one."},{"startTime":934.078,"endTime":937.068,"body":"I've seen very few scrum masters I'm"},{"startTime":934.078,"endTime":937.068,"body":"saying scrum masters because they're"},{"startTime":937.128,"endTime":942.778,"body":"they are the boots on the ground day"},{"startTime":937.128,"endTime":942.778,"body":"to day people that should be running"},{"startTime":942.778,"endTime":945.348,"body":"with the message if you even if you're"},{"startTime":942.778,"endTime":945.348,"body":"in an organization that has layers"},{"startTime":945.348,"endTime":949.178,"body":"and you have like Agile coaches up"},{"startTime":945.348,"endTime":949.178,"body":"here and they're a matrix or all the"},{"startTime":949.208,"endTime":950.158,"body":"whatever, you know talking about."},{"startTime":950.408,"endTime":955.418,"body":"The agile coaches uh Or like the executive"},{"startTime":950.408,"endTime":955.418,"body":"leadership, whereas the scrum masters"},{"startTime":955.418,"endTime":956.628,"body":"are like the on the ground leadership."},{"startTime":956.838,"endTime":960.038,"body":"Let's pretend in my weird world"},{"startTime":956.838,"endTime":960.038,"body":"that I just cooked up out of nowhere"},{"startTime":960.058,"endTime":961.298,"body":"for a second that it is this way."},{"startTime":961.698,"endTime":965.378,"body":"Like, the scrum masters are the ones"},{"startTime":961.698,"endTime":965.378,"body":"constantly reinforcing the message."},{"startTime":966.228,"endTime":971.553,"body":"And while I understand what you're saying,"},{"startTime":966.228,"endTime":971.553,"body":"I have very rarely seen a scrum master"},{"startTime":971.603,"endTime":975.953,"body":"proceed forward, translating this message"},{"startTime":971.603,"endTime":975.953,"body":"throughout the organization, purely"},{"startTime":975.953,"endTime":981.493,"body":"using financials of like, Hey, we should"},{"startTime":975.953,"endTime":981.493,"body":"disband this team and integrate parts of"},{"startTime":981.493,"endTime":985.103,"body":"it with other teams because even just my"},{"startTime":981.493,"endTime":985.103,"body":"team, the cost of delay cost this much."},{"startTime":985.333,"endTime":989.403,"body":"And if we just figure that all these"},{"startTime":985.333,"endTime":989.403,"body":"other teams, there's X number times"},{"startTime":989.413,"endTime":992.883,"body":"Y amount equals this much money that"},{"startTime":989.413,"endTime":992.883,"body":"is wasting having organizational"},{"startTime":992.883,"endTime":993.833,"body":"design set up the way it is."},{"startTime":994.083,"endTime":996.483,"body":"Like I've never seen anyone make"},{"startTime":994.083,"endTime":996.483,"body":"a case that way, number one."},{"startTime":996.733,"endTime":998.593,"body":"And number two, be successful."},{"startTime":999.403,"endTime":999.643,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":999.643,"endTime":1002.603,"body":"To your number one, though, you're not"},{"startTime":999.643,"endTime":1002.603,"body":"going to get people making that case."},{"startTime":1002.633,"endTime":1003.223,"body":"If you're."},{"startTime":1003.873,"endTime":1007.683,"body":"Scrum masters are,"},{"startTime":1003.873,"endTime":1007.683,"body":"rebadged project managers."},{"startTime":1007.693,"endTime":1009.503,"body":"They're looking at utilization."},{"startTime":1009.563,"endTime":1012.343,"body":"Look, my team is 85% utilized, right?"},{"startTime":1012.353,"endTime":1014.323,"body":"You know, they're doing great, right?"},{"startTime":1014.623,"endTime":1018.223,"body":"They're pedaling as fast as they can, but"},{"startTime":1014.623,"endTime":1018.223,"body":"we're going round and round in the lake."},{"startTime":1018.513,"endTime":1019.473,"body":"We're not getting anywhere."},{"startTime":1019.768,"endTime":1020.078,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1020.418,"endTime":1021.408,"body":"So you're not going to get that."},{"startTime":1021.828,"endTime":1028.218,"body":"And this is where, again, if you didn't"},{"startTime":1021.828,"endTime":1028.218,"body":"have, an agile coach on your team, or on"},{"startTime":1028.218,"endTime":1032.898,"body":"your, on your, program, you're going to"},{"startTime":1028.218,"endTime":1032.898,"body":"get these people that simply just have"},{"startTime":1032.898,"endTime":1035.558,"body":"that vision of, this is how we do things."},{"startTime":1035.558,"endTime":1038.428,"body":"Textbook often called zombie scrum."},{"startTime":1038.428,"endTime":1038.678,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1038.708,"endTime":1042.538,"body":"And, and it takes a lot of courage to"},{"startTime":1038.708,"endTime":1042.538,"body":"do what you were talking about, Brian."},{"startTime":1042.998,"endTime":1048.388,"body":"And in order to have the courage"},{"startTime":1042.998,"endTime":1048.388,"body":"to do this, you've got to feel"},{"startTime":1048.388,"endTime":1050.538,"body":"that it's safe for you to do this."},{"startTime":1050.578,"endTime":1053.258,"body":"And it's not always safe"},{"startTime":1050.578,"endTime":1053.258,"body":"for Scrum Masters, is it?"},{"startTime":1053.748,"endTime":1054.618,"body":"As we all know."},{"startTime":1055.328,"endTime":1057.868,"body":"As an Agile coach, you"},{"startTime":1055.328,"endTime":1057.868,"body":"might have a bit more..."},{"startTime":1058.118,"endTime":1061.918,"body":"Muscle to flex in that department,"},{"startTime":1058.118,"endTime":1061.918,"body":"depends on the organization,"},{"startTime":1062.308,"endTime":1063.378,"body":"but I'll tell you this."},{"startTime":1063.398,"endTime":1066.018,"body":"Both roles require a lot of courage."},{"startTime":1066.348,"endTime":1070.138,"body":"You're not just following what's"},{"startTime":1066.348,"endTime":1070.138,"body":"on the textbook version of scrum."},{"startTime":1071.038,"endTime":1072.538,"body":"If you're going to be successful,"},{"startTime":1073.228,"endTime":1076.128,"body":"I mean, I, I've argued many"},{"startTime":1073.228,"endTime":1076.128,"body":"times, like it shouldn't be, it"},{"startTime":1076.128,"endTime":1079.583,"body":"shouldn't shock anybody that the"},{"startTime":1076.128,"endTime":1079.583,"body":"textbook in no way, shape, or form."},{"startTime":1079.873,"endTime":1084.893,"body":"Or form prepares you for dealing with the,"},{"startTime":1079.873,"endTime":1084.893,"body":"the, like what the scrum guide says, the"},{"startTime":1084.903,"endTime":1087.633,"body":"coaching, the organization and coaching"},{"startTime":1084.903,"endTime":1087.633,"body":"the team, coaching the organization."},{"startTime":1087.883,"endTime":1090.183,"body":"It doesn't prepare you at all"},{"startTime":1087.883,"endTime":1090.183,"body":"to coach the organization."},{"startTime":1090.423,"endTime":1091.753,"body":"You know, this is what"},{"startTime":1090.423,"endTime":1091.753,"body":"we're talking about."},{"startTime":1092.183,"endTime":1095.923,"body":"You can't coach somebody who's"},{"startTime":1092.183,"endTime":1095.923,"body":"completely convinced that they're right."},{"startTime":1095.923,"endTime":1100.553,"body":"And it was not even open to"},{"startTime":1095.923,"endTime":1100.553,"body":"any, any possible evidence."},{"startTime":1101.293,"endTime":1101.773,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1101.793,"endTime":1105.343,"body":"Anything could be anything, but"},{"startTime":1101.793,"endTime":1105.343,"body":"exactly perfectly what they're"},{"startTime":1105.343,"endTime":1107.393,"body":"doing as an uncoachable individual."},{"startTime":1107.938,"endTime":1110.678,"body":"And you have to find ways to"},{"startTime":1107.938,"endTime":1110.678,"body":"either, I don't know, , have three"},{"startTime":1110.678,"endTime":1112.808,"body":"ghosts visit them, on Christmas."},{"startTime":1113.028,"endTime":1117.288,"body":"And, in lieu of that, I don't know, maybe"},{"startTime":1113.028,"endTime":1117.288,"body":"you go above them, or maybe you go to"},{"startTime":1117.288,"endTime":1120.518,"body":"their peers, or maybe you go to their"},{"startTime":1117.288,"endTime":1120.518,"body":"boss and be like, Do you realize that,"},{"startTime":1120.998,"endTime":1123.388,"body":"they may have some strategic one on ones?"},{"startTime":1123.948,"endTime":1127.628,"body":"To try to, break that armor down,"},{"startTime":1123.948,"endTime":1127.628,"body":"but, The textbook to me is a"},{"startTime":1127.628,"endTime":1130.718,"body":"bit like a, an Ikea user manual."},{"startTime":1131.058,"endTime":1132.248,"body":"There's no, there's no words."},{"startTime":1132.248,"endTime":1134.158,"body":"There's just a bunch of pictures, right?"},{"startTime":1134.218,"endTime":1135.168,"body":"And you figure it out."},{"startTime":1135.188,"endTime":1136.828,"body":"Hopefully you have all the parts you need."},{"startTime":1137.498,"endTime":1139.278,"body":"Often you're missing parts."},{"startTime":1139.328,"endTime":1144.848,"body":"But, yeah, as far as the people that"},{"startTime":1139.328,"endTime":1144.848,"body":"are seemingly uncoachable, Scrum Master"},{"startTime":1144.868,"endTime":1146.088,"body":"is not going to have the courage."},{"startTime":1146.658,"endTime":1148.608,"body":"To go ahead and try"},{"startTime":1146.658,"endTime":1148.608,"body":"different things, right?"},{"startTime":1148.608,"endTime":1150.778,"body":"An Agile coach might try"},{"startTime":1148.608,"endTime":1150.778,"body":"a few different things."},{"startTime":1150.778,"endTime":1153.598,"body":"We've talked about this on the"},{"startTime":1150.778,"endTime":1153.598,"body":"broadcast before align yourself"},{"startTime":1153.598,"endTime":1154.698,"body":"with their with firms, right?"},{"startTime":1154.928,"endTime":1158.128,"body":"We from wi I fm what's in it for me."},{"startTime":1158.418,"endTime":1160.178,"body":"So come at it from their perspective."},{"startTime":1160.188,"endTime":1161.378,"body":"Why are they objecting?"},{"startTime":1161.758,"endTime":1162.028,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1162.058,"endTime":1166.278,"body":"Why are they becoming the, the"},{"startTime":1162.058,"endTime":1166.278,"body":"obstacle are they coachable?"},{"startTime":1166.528,"endTime":1170.848,"body":"If you can align yourself with"},{"startTime":1166.528,"endTime":1170.848,"body":"their vision, that's step one"},{"startTime":1170.848,"endTime":1172.558,"body":"to try and like really solve it."},{"startTime":1172.738,"endTime":1175.458,"body":"Otherwise, you're just"},{"startTime":1172.738,"endTime":1175.458,"body":"going head to head, right?"},{"startTime":1175.488,"endTime":1177.158,"body":"And that's not going to get you anywhere."},{"startTime":1177.158,"endTime":1178.668,"body":"It'd be like two rams butting heads."},{"startTime":1178.698,"endTime":1183.988,"body":"If you're a new scrum master or"},{"startTime":1178.698,"endTime":1183.988,"body":"even a new product owner and you are"},{"startTime":1184.018,"endTime":1189.523,"body":"interviewing, For a new position, one"},{"startTime":1184.018,"endTime":1189.523,"body":"of the questions, if you're courageous,"},{"startTime":1189.533,"endTime":1196.213,"body":"you might ask is how coachable is our"},{"startTime":1189.533,"endTime":1196.213,"body":"leadership in the area of agility?"},{"startTime":1197.023,"endTime":1200.443,"body":"How, how open is leadership to change?"},{"startTime":1200.693,"endTime":1203.433,"body":"And I think that's a very good"},{"startTime":1200.693,"endTime":1203.433,"body":"interview question to ask."},{"startTime":1203.433,"endTime":1209.763,"body":"It shows, it shows, your stuff and that"},{"startTime":1203.433,"endTime":1209.763,"body":"you're forward thinking I was consulting"},{"startTime":1209.823,"endTime":1212.793,"body":"at, an international organization."},{"startTime":1213.503,"endTime":1217.493,"body":"And they were ripe for enterprise agility."},{"startTime":1217.573,"endTime":1222.813,"body":"We'd had a lot of success, with the"},{"startTime":1217.573,"endTime":1222.813,"body":"software department, a lot of success with"},{"startTime":1222.823,"endTime":1227.993,"body":"the hardware department, and it was time,"},{"startTime":1222.823,"endTime":1227.993,"body":"it was time to bring it enterprise wide."},{"startTime":1228.483,"endTime":1229.783,"body":"So I sat with the CEO."},{"startTime":1230.408,"endTime":1234.748,"body":"And I showed the benefits, and I"},{"startTime":1230.408,"endTime":1234.748,"body":"showed where the monetary savings"},{"startTime":1234.748,"endTime":1240.368,"body":"would be in terms of, operational"},{"startTime":1234.748,"endTime":1240.368,"body":"efficiencies and more effective"},{"startTime":1240.368,"endTime":1243.588,"body":"use of, manpower, personpower."},{"startTime":1244.388,"endTime":1248.623,"body":"And the CEO sat there and said to"},{"startTime":1244.388,"endTime":1248.623,"body":"me, Well, you know what, William?"},{"startTime":1249.363,"endTime":1250.773,"body":"You're absolutely right."},{"startTime":1251.023,"endTime":1253.523,"body":"I just don't feel ready"},{"startTime":1251.023,"endTime":1253.523,"body":"for that right now."},{"startTime":1253.703,"endTime":1255.473,"body":"So, we're not going to do it."},{"startTime":1255.883,"endTime":1260.463,"body":"By the way, I know, this is"},{"startTime":1255.883,"endTime":1260.463,"body":"probably a wrong decision."},{"startTime":1260.813,"endTime":1261.753,"body":"But the answer's no."},{"startTime":1261.783,"endTime":1262.633,"body":"Have a nice day."},{"startTime":1262.883,"endTime":1263.603,"body":"There's, yeah."},{"startTime":1263.863,"endTime":1266.853,"body":"I don't want to segue, from"},{"startTime":1263.863,"endTime":1266.853,"body":"the, the crux of the podcast."},{"startTime":1266.853,"endTime":1268.583,"body":"But there's something there, right?"},{"startTime":1268.903,"endTime":1271.503,"body":"As a coach, I want to, go and"},{"startTime":1268.903,"endTime":1271.503,"body":"say, Have you coached that guy?"},{"startTime":1271.603,"endTime":1276.718,"body":"I had almost that exact situation at"},{"startTime":1271.603,"endTime":1276.718,"body":"a workplace one time and  I had the"},{"startTime":1276.718,"endTime":1281.178,"body":"same conversation, with someone I"},{"startTime":1276.718,"endTime":1281.178,"body":"worked for one time and she replied"},{"startTime":1281.208,"endTime":1285.123,"body":"back to me is, this is a great way to"},{"startTime":1281.208,"endTime":1285.123,"body":"basically the organizational structure,"},{"startTime":1285.613,"endTime":1291.033,"body":"but, it's, it's too radical for where"},{"startTime":1285.613,"endTime":1291.033,"body":"we came from that the pyramid org"},{"startTime":1291.033,"endTime":1295.613,"body":"chart and where we're going to the,"},{"startTime":1291.033,"endTime":1295.613,"body":"the team topology style, whatever."},{"startTime":1295.613,"endTime":1298.413,"body":"And we're not going to do it now,"},{"startTime":1295.613,"endTime":1298.413,"body":"not, not, not, we're never going to do"},{"startTime":1298.413,"endTime":1299.743,"body":"it, but we're not going to do it now."},{"startTime":1300.043,"endTime":1302.273,"body":"That was the old product management"},{"startTime":1300.043,"endTime":1302.273,"body":"stakeholder management of like."},{"startTime":1302.853,"endTime":1306.663,"body":"That's a great idea, but not now so"},{"startTime":1302.853,"endTime":1306.663,"body":"that in my brain that translates of"},{"startTime":1306.663,"endTime":1311.703,"body":"course to like no never yeah Yeah,"},{"startTime":1306.663,"endTime":1311.703,"body":"no, but not now just means uh Maybe I"},{"startTime":1311.743,"endTime":1313.313,"body":"just don't use a single word for it."},{"startTime":1313.313,"endTime":1313.603,"body":"Maybe"},{"startTime":1314.173,"endTime":1321.113,"body":"if you are going to be"},{"startTime":1314.173,"endTime":1321.113,"body":"engaging in doing agile."},{"startTime":1321.363,"endTime":1326.833,"body":"You've got to get enough people"},{"startTime":1321.363,"endTime":1326.833,"body":"on side with you from leadership"},{"startTime":1327.463,"endTime":1328.733,"body":"that are willing to give it a go."},{"startTime":1328.793,"endTime":1329.183,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1329.613,"endTime":1331.403,"body":"I think that that's my bottom line."},{"startTime":1332.133,"endTime":1337.303,"body":"Well I agree and also sometimes you"},{"startTime":1332.133,"endTime":1337.303,"body":"cannot get enough people and then"},{"startTime":1337.363,"endTime":1341.523,"body":"you need to be emboldened enough"},{"startTime":1337.363,"endTime":1341.523,"body":"to say okay I'm just gonna do this."},{"startTime":1342.108,"endTime":1344.588,"body":"That's what I was saying earlier,"},{"startTime":1342.108,"endTime":1344.588,"body":"roll up your sleeves and say, let"},{"startTime":1344.588,"endTime":1346.238,"body":"me just show you how it could work."},{"startTime":1346.278,"endTime":1350.318,"body":"Well, in, in this case where, where"},{"startTime":1346.278,"endTime":1350.318,"body":"you've already got agreement on the"},{"startTime":1350.338,"endTime":1353.223,"body":"alignment, Hey, should we do this thing?"},{"startTime":1353.473,"endTime":1354.173,"body":"Yes, we should."},{"startTime":1354.393,"endTime":1355.283,"body":"Hey, are we going to do it?"},{"startTime":1355.323,"endTime":1357.193,"body":"Since you agree that we should"},{"startTime":1355.323,"endTime":1357.193,"body":"know, we're not going to do it."},{"startTime":1357.753,"endTime":1358.063,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1358.063,"endTime":1358.543,"body":"Well, why?"},{"startTime":1358.573,"endTime":1360.893,"body":"Well, cause I'm afraid of"},{"startTime":1358.573,"endTime":1360.893,"body":"X, Y, Z, like whatever."},{"startTime":1360.983,"endTime":1361.603,"body":"There were reasons, right?"},{"startTime":1361.633,"endTime":1362.203,"body":"Cause I'm afraid of this."},{"startTime":1363.063,"endTime":1363.593,"body":"Okay, cool."},{"startTime":1363.603,"endTime":1366.663,"body":"Like the the follow up to that should"},{"startTime":1363.603,"endTime":1366.663,"body":"have been okay, well, I understand"},{"startTime":1366.663,"endTime":1369.683,"body":"we don't want to take on the entire"},{"startTime":1366.663,"endTime":1369.683,"body":"organization, but maybe we start with"},{"startTime":1369.683,"endTime":1374.033,"body":"a logical segment, one product and"},{"startTime":1369.683,"endTime":1374.033,"body":"all the teams to support that product"},{"startTime":1374.293,"endTime":1375.753,"body":"all through the entire business."},{"startTime":1375.933,"endTime":1378.343,"body":"I would not, I would not"},{"startTime":1375.933,"endTime":1378.343,"body":"like knowing what I know now."},{"startTime":1378.743,"endTime":1384.003,"body":"Go back in time, I would not separate just"},{"startTime":1378.743,"endTime":1384.003,"body":"the development or the development and"},{"startTime":1384.003,"endTime":1387.653,"body":"the whatever, I mean, the, the, the, the"},{"startTime":1384.003,"endTime":1387.653,"body":"requirements and then the development and"},{"startTime":1387.683,"endTime":1389.183,"body":"the testing, I, I wouldn't separate that."},{"startTime":1389.233,"endTime":1394.113,"body":"I would say, let me run an entire"},{"startTime":1389.233,"endTime":1394.113,"body":"business and give me access to everyone."},{"startTime":1394.113,"endTime":1397.563,"body":"I need to run this business and"},{"startTime":1394.113,"endTime":1397.563,"body":"then separate it so that I can"},{"startTime":1397.563,"endTime":1402.283,"body":"use throughput accounting all the"},{"startTime":1397.563,"endTime":1402.283,"body":"way through from start to finish."},{"startTime":1403.223,"endTime":1403.393,"body":"What I mean?"},{"startTime":1403.673,"endTime":1406.503,"body":"The finances follow the"},{"startTime":1403.673,"endTime":1406.503,"body":"people management follows."},{"startTime":1406.718,"endTime":1409.398,"body":"The incentive structure follows, , and"},{"startTime":1406.718,"endTime":1409.398,"body":"then all the work and everything"},{"startTime":1409.398,"endTime":1412.218,"body":"that goes with it, the customers,"},{"startTime":1409.398,"endTime":1412.218,"body":"everything that goes with it, and to"},{"startTime":1412.218,"endTime":1416.448,"body":"see if I can get an agreement to just"},{"startTime":1412.218,"endTime":1416.448,"body":"try it in a, like that, like what"},{"startTime":1416.448,"endTime":1418.498,"body":"you're saying, hey, let me just try."},{"startTime":1418.813,"endTime":1421.663,"body":"This little pilot, but but"},{"startTime":1418.813,"endTime":1421.663,"body":"a true end-to-end pilot."},{"startTime":1421.723,"endTime":1421.873,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1421.873,"endTime":1424.693,"body":"Not just a pilot that's like,"},{"startTime":1421.873,"endTime":1424.693,"body":"well, you, you developers go over"},{"startTime":1424.698,"endTime":1426.283,"body":"there and you just play around."},{"startTime":1426.283,"endTime":1427.093,"body":"Go play the role."},{"startTime":1427.093,"endTime":1427.693,"body":"Play around."},{"startTime":1427.933,"endTime":1428.143,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1428.143,"endTime":1429.223,"body":"No, I completely agree with that."},{"startTime":1429.223,"endTime":1432.763,"body":"So if you were to do that, that latter"},{"startTime":1429.223,"endTime":1432.763,"body":"approach, which is just, just take"},{"startTime":1432.763,"endTime":1434.443,"body":"that, just the development, right?"},{"startTime":1434.693,"endTime":1438.083,"body":"That's not gonna get you anything"},{"startTime":1434.693,"endTime":1438.083,"body":"because it's gonna be hard to show"},{"startTime":1438.083,"endTime":1443.403,"body":"any impact, any value out of doing"},{"startTime":1438.083,"endTime":1443.403,"body":"agile, being agile, et cetera."},{"startTime":1444.323,"endTime":1449.113,"body":"The only thing you might hope to"},{"startTime":1444.323,"endTime":1449.113,"body":"get there, is maybe some impact"},{"startTime":1449.113,"endTime":1450.633,"body":"around cost accounting, right?"},{"startTime":1450.653,"endTime":1451.293,"body":"Not throughput."},{"startTime":1451.813,"endTime":1454.173,"body":"Throughput involves really the end to end."},{"startTime":1454.413,"endTime":1456.763,"body":"So take a sliver of the business, right?"},{"startTime":1456.763,"endTime":1460.463,"body":"Just, just a small sliver end"},{"startTime":1456.763,"endTime":1460.463,"body":"to end to your point, right?"},{"startTime":1460.493,"endTime":1462.033,"body":"And then follow that through."},{"startTime":1462.383,"endTime":1467.173,"body":"And when you say you can do something"},{"startTime":1462.383,"endTime":1467.173,"body":"and you actually do something, that's it."},{"startTime":1467.383,"endTime":1469.343,"body":"That's, that's really"},{"startTime":1467.383,"endTime":1469.343,"body":"what you're looking for."},{"startTime":1469.593,"endTime":1471.033,"body":"So now that becomes that."},{"startTime":1471.438,"endTime":1473.698,"body":"You know, that lighthouse,"},{"startTime":1471.438,"endTime":1473.698,"body":"that beacon, right?"},{"startTime":1473.698,"endTime":1478.988,"body":"And you can now say, look, if I can do"},{"startTime":1473.698,"endTime":1478.988,"body":"this here, what if all of us can do this?"},{"startTime":1479.178,"endTime":1479.558,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1479.588,"endTime":1481.648,"body":"What does that mean for"},{"startTime":1479.588,"endTime":1481.648,"body":"us as an organization?"},{"startTime":1481.898,"endTime":1484.878,"body":"At that level, you need to"},{"startTime":1481.898,"endTime":1484.878,"body":"not engage the individual."},{"startTime":1485.283,"endTime":1488.653,"body":"Stakeholders alone of these"},{"startTime":1485.283,"endTime":1488.653,"body":"other segments, you need to"},{"startTime":1488.653,"endTime":1490.913,"body":"engage senior leadership, right?"},{"startTime":1491.203,"endTime":1492.773,"body":"The C level folks, right?"},{"startTime":1492.973,"endTime":1495.473,"body":"And say, look at this"},{"startTime":1492.973,"endTime":1495.473,"body":"because they understand the"},{"startTime":1495.473,"endTime":1497.273,"body":"financial angle of it, right?"},{"startTime":1497.533,"endTime":1503.533,"body":"This little sliver of the business"},{"startTime":1497.533,"endTime":1503.533,"body":"has transformed and it means X for us."},{"startTime":1503.783,"endTime":1507.043,"body":"So extrapolate that now,"},{"startTime":1503.783,"endTime":1507.043,"body":"and this is what it means."},{"startTime":1507.543,"endTime":1512.718,"body":"If you're, if you're, willing to"},{"startTime":1507.543,"endTime":1512.718,"body":"give us The rope to work with."},{"startTime":1513.148,"endTime":1514.748,"body":"Let's try this for a quarter."},{"startTime":1514.778,"endTime":1517.288,"body":"So this goes back to what we"},{"startTime":1514.778,"endTime":1517.288,"body":"always talk about in the podcast."},{"startTime":1517.688,"endTime":1520.538,"body":"Don't go in and say we're going"},{"startTime":1517.688,"endTime":1520.538,"body":"to be agile going forward because"},{"startTime":1520.538,"endTime":1523.328,"body":"I've proven that it works in this"},{"startTime":1520.538,"endTime":1523.328,"body":"little sliver because you'll find 50"},{"startTime":1523.328,"endTime":1525.693,"body":"people that say Yeah, that's great."},{"startTime":1525.913,"endTime":1528.933,"body":"It doesn't work for us"},{"startTime":1525.913,"endTime":1528.933,"body":"because, we're special, right?"},{"startTime":1529.363,"endTime":1530.563,"body":"So we just don't do that."},{"startTime":1530.583,"endTime":1532.493,"body":"We just say, let's try it."},{"startTime":1532.573,"endTime":1533.753,"body":"Let's try it for a month."},{"startTime":1533.783,"endTime":1536.613,"body":"Let's try it for a quarter,"},{"startTime":1533.783,"endTime":1536.613,"body":"depending on your scale."},{"startTime":1537.323,"endTime":1540.223,"body":"So it's not like you're saying,"},{"startTime":1537.323,"endTime":1540.223,"body":"well, shove this down your throat."},{"startTime":1540.698,"endTime":1541.608,"body":"We're gonna be agile."},{"startTime":1541.628,"endTime":1542.898,"body":"No, we're gonna try it."},{"startTime":1543.008,"endTime":1544.368,"body":"We'll reevaluate after that."},{"startTime":1544.498,"endTime":1547.158,"body":"And oh, by the way, have"},{"startTime":1544.498,"endTime":1547.158,"body":"you got a better idea?"},{"startTime":1547.218,"endTime":1551.258,"body":"Give me the details of a better"},{"startTime":1547.218,"endTime":1551.258,"body":"idea and let's evaluate that."},{"startTime":1552.198,"endTime":1554.238,"body":"You can put the ball back"},{"startTime":1552.198,"endTime":1554.238,"body":"in their court that way."},{"startTime":1554.678,"endTime":1557.628,"body":"That's a bit of a, bit of a risky"},{"startTime":1554.678,"endTime":1557.628,"body":"play because you don't quite know"},{"startTime":1557.628,"endTime":1558.718,"body":"what they're going to come up with."},{"startTime":1559.088,"endTime":1561.458,"body":"But, get their engagement that way."},{"startTime":1561.458,"endTime":1562.758,"body":"You got a better idea?"},{"startTime":1562.808,"endTime":1563.278,"body":"Show me."},{"startTime":1563.318,"endTime":1564.338,"body":"Give me the details."},{"startTime":1564.378,"endTime":1566.868,"body":"I'm scared of that tactic"},{"startTime":1564.378,"endTime":1566.868,"body":"because that's how we get..."},{"startTime":1567.113,"endTime":1569.403,"body":"Picking and shoot, like we're going"},{"startTime":1567.113,"endTime":1569.403,"body":"to do, we're not going to be agile,"},{"startTime":1569.403,"endTime":1572.013,"body":"but we're all going to do daily"},{"startTime":1569.403,"endTime":1572.013,"body":"standups and say that we're agile now."},{"startTime":1572.073,"endTime":1574.693,"body":"And then you have to have the"},{"startTime":1572.073,"endTime":1574.693,"body":"guts to stand there and say,"},{"startTime":1575.523,"endTime":1576.363,"body":"that's not going to work."},{"startTime":1576.413,"endTime":1577.423,"body":"That's not agile."},{"startTime":1577.463,"endTime":1578.683,"body":"That's agile in name only."},{"startTime":1578.723,"endTime":1579.153,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1579.183,"endTime":1580.753,"body":"Which is quite prevalent out there."},{"startTime":1580.953,"endTime":1584.833,"body":"That's just changing, changing the"},{"startTime":1580.953,"endTime":1584.833,"body":"title on somebody's business card."},{"startTime":1585.083,"endTime":1585.393,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1585.393,"endTime":1589.393,"body":"And that does run the risk of them"},{"startTime":1585.393,"endTime":1589.393,"body":"saying, look, for 50 plus years,"},{"startTime":1589.393,"endTime":1590.643,"body":"we've been working in this way."},{"startTime":1590.723,"endTime":1592.533,"body":"What makes you think we'll be successful?"},{"startTime":1592.573,"endTime":1595.513,"body":"Because if you keep on doing"},{"startTime":1592.573,"endTime":1595.513,"body":"what you've done, you're always"},{"startTime":1595.513,"endTime":1596.863,"body":"going to get what you've got."},{"startTime":1597.173,"endTime":1600.503,"body":"You've acknowledged that you've got"},{"startTime":1597.173,"endTime":1600.503,"body":"challenges, your competitors are moving"},{"startTime":1600.503,"endTime":1604.8,"body":"faster, your deliveries are always"},{"startTime":1600.503,"endTime":1604.8,"body":"falling behind schedule, you've got"},{"startTime":1604.81,"endTime":1608.07,"body":"turnover because people aren't happy,"},{"startTime":1604.81,"endTime":1608.07,"body":"they're leaving because they don't"},{"startTime":1608.07,"endTime":1612.4,"body":"like the culture, you know you have a"},{"startTime":1608.07,"endTime":1612.4,"body":"challenge, you've got to come up with"},{"startTime":1612.4,"endTime":1614.65,"body":"a way to build a better mousetrap."},{"startTime":1615.28,"endTime":1618.85,"body":"That's when they say, you're"},{"startTime":1615.28,"endTime":1618.85,"body":"absolutely right, he'll go first."},{"startTime":1619.84,"endTime":1620.15,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1620.5,"endTime":1621.89,"body":"I'm not going to be the first one."},{"startTime":1622.01,"endTime":1623.53,"body":"So it takes people at risk averse."},{"startTime":1623.55,"endTime":1624.27,"body":"That's where I'm getting."},{"startTime":1624.27,"endTime":1625.17,"body":"And it takes courage."},{"startTime":1625.17,"endTime":1625.98,"body":"It does take courage."},{"startTime":1626.0,"endTime":1626.72,"body":"It takes courage."},{"startTime":1626.72,"endTime":1630.03,"body":"And that's why I'm saying"},{"startTime":1626.72,"endTime":1630.03,"body":"show by example that it works."},{"startTime":1630.44,"endTime":1633.53,"body":"But then also don't say just"},{"startTime":1630.44,"endTime":1633.53,"body":"because it's worked in your little"},{"startTime":1634.04,"endTime":1638.04,"body":"microcosm, it's going to work for"},{"startTime":1634.04,"endTime":1638.04,"body":"the bigger, the bigger whole, right?"},{"startTime":1638.292,"endTime":1642.222,"body":"I think from an operational standpoint,"},{"startTime":1638.292,"endTime":1642.222,"body":"I would say if you're taking a sliver"},{"startTime":1642.222,"endTime":1647.509,"body":"of the business to kind of pilot this"},{"startTime":1642.222,"endTime":1647.509,"body":"and showcase that it works, right."},{"startTime":1647.759,"endTime":1650.399,"body":"Why stop at your work?"},{"startTime":1650.449,"endTime":1654.659,"body":"Why not bring the customer in"},{"startTime":1650.449,"endTime":1654.659,"body":"and have them say, how did this"},{"startTime":1654.699,"endTime":1656.809,"body":"new way of working work for you?"},{"startTime":1657.649,"endTime":1659.549,"body":"As a customer, did you"},{"startTime":1657.649,"endTime":1659.549,"body":"see anything different?"},{"startTime":1660.219,"endTime":1663.559,"body":"How would you feel if we continued"},{"startTime":1660.219,"endTime":1663.559,"body":"in this way across all the domains"},{"startTime":1663.559,"endTime":1664.969,"body":"of the business, rather than just."},{"startTime":1665.414,"endTime":1666.304,"body":"This one aspect."},{"startTime":1666.494,"endTime":1670.294,"body":"So when you phone in for a complaint,"},{"startTime":1666.494,"endTime":1670.294,"body":"right, you're speaking with"},{"startTime":1670.334,"endTime":1674.484,"body":"another, I'll call it department"},{"startTime":1670.334,"endTime":1674.484,"body":"because that's often what they are."},{"startTime":1674.734,"endTime":1675.584,"body":"Customer support."},{"startTime":1675.644,"endTime":1677.124,"body":"Let's say that's not us."},{"startTime":1677.204,"endTime":1680.344,"body":"We're, let's say we're, we're"},{"startTime":1677.204,"endTime":1680.344,"body":"developers or we do development,"},{"startTime":1680.354,"endTime":1681.564,"body":"but we don't support them."},{"startTime":1681.564,"endTime":1682.744,"body":"We, that's somebody else."},{"startTime":1683.424,"endTime":1688.344,"body":"What if this same approach that we took"},{"startTime":1683.424,"endTime":1688.344,"body":"for development was used by our support"},{"startTime":1688.344,"endTime":1692.094,"body":"people, by our contract people that"},{"startTime":1688.344,"endTime":1692.094,"body":"you sign up support contracts with?"},{"startTime":1692.474,"endTime":1694.174,"body":"Would that be a better experience for you?"},{"startTime":1694.674,"endTime":1699.754,"body":"And if they come into the fold, now you"},{"startTime":1694.674,"endTime":1699.754,"body":"can link arms with them and say, Look,"},{"startTime":1699.854,"endTime":1704.924,"body":"people that are paying us agree that"},{"startTime":1699.854,"endTime":1704.924,"body":"this new way is better for them, right?"},{"startTime":1705.594,"endTime":1708.554,"body":"Where it gets challenging"},{"startTime":1705.594,"endTime":1708.554,"body":"though, so I think this is a"},{"startTime":1708.594,"endTime":1709.884,"body":"good starting point, right?"},{"startTime":1709.954,"endTime":1713.724,"body":"So people who are wondering how you can"},{"startTime":1709.954,"endTime":1713.724,"body":"start that, You might consider that,"},{"startTime":1713.724,"endTime":1717.754,"body":"but I'll warn you this, this, this is"},{"startTime":1713.724,"endTime":1717.754,"body":"kind of like headwinds coming at you."},{"startTime":1717.794,"endTime":1721.394,"body":"If you get to this point,"},{"startTime":1717.794,"endTime":1721.394,"body":"people will say, prove it."},{"startTime":1722.154,"endTime":1725.144,"body":"That's easily, that's the easy ask."},{"startTime":1725.214,"endTime":1726.034,"body":"Prove it, right?"},{"startTime":1726.064,"endTime":1728.684,"body":"And then it's not a, it's"},{"startTime":1726.064,"endTime":1728.684,"body":"not an easy thing to furnish."},{"startTime":1728.904,"endTime":1731.654,"body":"Well, just prove it that"},{"startTime":1728.904,"endTime":1731.654,"body":"it's better for them."},{"startTime":1731.664,"endTime":1733.064,"body":"You know, well, these customers say that."},{"startTime":1733.104,"endTime":1735.354,"body":"Yeah, they're always, proponents anyway."},{"startTime":1735.354,"endTime":1739.104,"body":"And they're always going to say yes,"},{"startTime":1735.354,"endTime":1739.104,"body":"because they've been with us for 30 years."},{"startTime":1739.114,"endTime":1739.794,"body":"They're not going anywhere."},{"startTime":1740.244,"endTime":1741.544,"body":"What about these new people?"},{"startTime":1742.044,"endTime":1744.624,"body":"So you're going to have all"},{"startTime":1742.044,"endTime":1744.624,"body":"these road bumps, right?"},{"startTime":1744.914,"endTime":1749.504,"body":"What you have to do is to say, going back"},{"startTime":1744.914,"endTime":1749.504,"body":"to what you were saying, William, right?"},{"startTime":1749.824,"endTime":1754.424,"body":"Your way, you wouldn't say it like"},{"startTime":1749.824,"endTime":1754.424,"body":"this, but the old way, the way we're"},{"startTime":1754.444,"endTime":1760.284,"body":"currently working in those other domains"},{"startTime":1754.444,"endTime":1760.284,"body":"is not having the impact that we desire."},{"startTime":1760.644,"endTime":1762.034,"body":"So clearly we have to change."},{"startTime":1762.084,"endTime":1764.714,"body":"And at that point you could"},{"startTime":1762.084,"endTime":1764.714,"body":"say this is one such change."},{"startTime":1765.044,"endTime":1766.274,"body":"Let's just try it for..."},{"startTime":1766.439,"endTime":1766.929,"body":"A month."},{"startTime":1767.009,"endTime":1768.439,"body":"Let's try it and see what happens."},{"startTime":1768.689,"endTime":1771.939,"body":"Or such other amount of time"},{"startTime":1768.689,"endTime":1771.939,"body":"as is reasonably necessary"},{"startTime":1771.939,"endTime":1773.179,"body":"to generate the proof."},{"startTime":1773.229,"endTime":1773.649,"body":"Indeed."},{"startTime":1773.719,"endTime":1774.079,"body":"Indeed."},{"startTime":1774.119,"endTime":1775.759,"body":"It's just contextual."},{"startTime":1775.799,"endTime":1776.489,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1776.739,"endTime":1776.979,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1777.219,"endTime":1781.499,"body":"Now I can, I can hear my, my friends at"},{"startTime":1777.219,"endTime":1781.499,"body":"Boeing saying, what do you mean a month?"},{"startTime":1781.956,"endTime":1785.506,"body":"Does this approach change depending"},{"startTime":1781.956,"endTime":1785.506,"body":"on the size of the company?"},{"startTime":1786.026,"endTime":1789.936,"body":"Is it easier in smaller companies"},{"startTime":1786.026,"endTime":1789.936,"body":"than bigger companies or vice versa?"},{"startTime":1789.936,"endTime":1790.551,"body":"What do you think?"},{"startTime":1790.801,"endTime":1795.761,"body":"I think it is just because you"},{"startTime":1790.801,"endTime":1795.761,"body":"have fewer number of people that"},{"startTime":1795.761,"endTime":1797.481,"body":"you have to, try and convince."},{"startTime":1797.731,"endTime":1801.201,"body":"The mountain in front of you is"},{"startTime":1797.731,"endTime":1801.201,"body":"a hill instead of a mountain."},{"startTime":1801.541,"endTime":1803.551,"body":"It's easier to go over it, right?"},{"startTime":1803.721,"endTime":1806.771,"body":"Then worrying about if there"},{"startTime":1803.721,"endTime":1806.771,"body":"is there another summit."},{"startTime":1806.801,"endTime":1808.841,"body":"I've just thought I've reached a summit."},{"startTime":1808.841,"endTime":1809.751,"body":"I thought that was it."},{"startTime":1809.981,"endTime":1813.196,"body":"You look up And you say, oh,"},{"startTime":1809.981,"endTime":1813.196,"body":"goodness, there's another summit."},{"startTime":1813.606,"endTime":1816.236,"body":"I felt like that when I, when I met Nevis."},{"startTime":1816.266,"endTime":1816.956,"body":"It was like that."},{"startTime":1817.806,"endTime":1819.636,"body":"It's like, this is not the summit."},{"startTime":1819.716,"endTime":1820.956,"body":"The other summit is up there."},{"startTime":1820.956,"endTime":1822.706,"body":"And you get up there and"},{"startTime":1820.956,"endTime":1822.706,"body":"go, oh, there's more."},{"startTime":1823.146,"endTime":1823.516,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1823.706,"endTime":1828.876,"body":"In larger organizations, you have people"},{"startTime":1823.706,"endTime":1828.876,"body":"that are entrenched in their interests."},{"startTime":1829.076,"endTime":1829.356,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1829.396,"endTime":1832.076,"body":"And they will really"},{"startTime":1829.396,"endTime":1832.076,"body":"fight you tooth and nail."},{"startTime":1832.276,"endTime":1833.706,"body":"In smaller ones, they might."},{"startTime":1834.086,"endTime":1838.826,"body":"But, you have easier access to them,"},{"startTime":1834.086,"endTime":1838.826,"body":"you have easier access to the people"},{"startTime":1838.826,"endTime":1840.876,"body":"that can override that, perhaps."},{"startTime":1841.266,"endTime":1843.846,"body":"So I think in a way,"},{"startTime":1841.266,"endTime":1843.846,"body":"it is easier, you know."},{"startTime":1843.916,"endTime":1847.926,"body":"Yeah, I was gonna agree from the"},{"startTime":1843.916,"endTime":1847.926,"body":"perspective of, I think larger"},{"startTime":1847.956,"endTime":1853.246,"body":"organizations will probably have"},{"startTime":1847.956,"endTime":1853.246,"body":"a higher likelihood of having"},{"startTime":1853.286,"endTime":1857.496,"body":"terrible org design that is"},{"startTime":1853.286,"endTime":1857.496,"body":"sabotaging their ability to change."},{"startTime":1857.746,"endTime":1859.656,"body":"And that has nothing"},{"startTime":1857.746,"endTime":1859.656,"body":"to do with being agile."},{"startTime":1860.026,"endTime":1861.866,"body":"I'm just talking about"},{"startTime":1860.026,"endTime":1861.866,"body":"their ability to change."},{"startTime":1862.266,"endTime":1862.746,"body":"Period."},{"startTime":1863.536,"endTime":1866.766,"body":"you can also interpret that as"},{"startTime":1863.536,"endTime":1866.766,"body":"ability to react to the market."},{"startTime":1867.296,"endTime":1869.336,"body":"Google has now entered"},{"startTime":1867.296,"endTime":1869.336,"body":"your market segment."},{"startTime":1869.716,"endTime":1870.526,"body":"What are you going to do?"},{"startTime":1870.586,"endTime":1872.376,"body":"Well, we're going to keep doing"},{"startTime":1870.586,"endTime":1872.376,"body":"the things that we're doing"},{"startTime":1872.376,"endTime":1873.266,"body":"and everything's going to be..."},{"startTime":1873.456,"endTime":1876.846,"body":"That's probably not a good response to"},{"startTime":1873.456,"endTime":1876.846,"body":"Google entering your market segment."},{"startTime":1877.066,"endTime":1878.536,"body":"You probably should do something."},{"startTime":1878.786,"endTime":1882.006,"body":"And, and if you're just"},{"startTime":1878.786,"endTime":1882.006,"body":"unable to do anything..."},{"startTime":1882.671,"endTime":1887.351,"body":"Because, things have dragged along,"},{"startTime":1882.671,"endTime":1887.351,"body":"and it takes six months to even change"},{"startTime":1887.351,"endTime":1891.211,"body":"direction, that's just not acceptable."},{"startTime":1892.071,"endTime":1894.081,"body":"I think I got this out of"},{"startTime":1892.071,"endTime":1894.081,"body":"the the second Deming book."},{"startTime":1894.331,"endTime":1894.881,"body":"He had a..."},{"startTime":1895.131,"endTime":1897.901,"body":"I might, I might be completely"},{"startTime":1895.131,"endTime":1897.901,"body":"spacing this one, but..."},{"startTime":1897.901,"endTime":1901.721,"body":"He has a graphic about, effort"},{"startTime":1897.901,"endTime":1901.721,"body":"in, and then a black box,"},{"startTime":1901.741,"endTime":1903.041,"body":"and then the results out."},{"startTime":1903.356,"endTime":1906.446,"body":"But then the environment is"},{"startTime":1903.356,"endTime":1906.446,"body":"pressing against the black box,"},{"startTime":1906.466,"endTime":1908.296,"body":"and the environment changes."},{"startTime":1909.246,"endTime":1911.726,"body":"And if you're not watching what's"},{"startTime":1909.246,"endTime":1911.726,"body":"happening in the environment, you're"},{"startTime":1911.726,"endTime":1915.206,"body":"not aware that the environment is"},{"startTime":1911.726,"endTime":1915.206,"body":"changing around your black box."},{"startTime":1915.246,"endTime":1918.636,"body":"So you're expecting, you're giving it"},{"startTime":1915.246,"endTime":1918.636,"body":"the same inputs, you're expecting the"},{"startTime":1918.636,"endTime":1922.766,"body":"same outputs, and then you're seeing your"},{"startTime":1918.636,"endTime":1922.766,"body":"outputs diminish, or your outputs come"},{"startTime":1922.766,"endTime":1925.266,"body":"out differently or whatever, and you don't"},{"startTime":1922.766,"endTime":1925.266,"body":"understand because you're like, I didn't"},{"startTime":1925.266,"endTime":1926.556,"body":"change anything inside the black box."},{"startTime":1927.461,"endTime":1930.141,"body":"You know, yeah, but you, you've"},{"startTime":1927.461,"endTime":1930.141,"body":"ignored the environment that you're in."},{"startTime":1930.281,"endTime":1931.241,"body":"Yeah, I think you've nailed it."},{"startTime":1931.291,"endTime":1933.601,"body":"So, the black box"},{"startTime":1931.291,"endTime":1933.601,"body":"approach, classic, right?"},{"startTime":1933.631,"endTime":1936.701,"body":"I mean, you've got that whole,"},{"startTime":1933.631,"endTime":1936.701,"body":"control feedback, right?"},{"startTime":1936.701,"endTime":1940.211,"body":"That, so it, it's, it's one thing"},{"startTime":1936.701,"endTime":1940.211,"body":"to have that negative feedback loop"},{"startTime":1940.211,"endTime":1941.936,"body":"where you can actually improve things."},{"startTime":1942.516,"endTime":1946.406,"body":"And it's a fine line to it becoming"},{"startTime":1942.516,"endTime":1946.406,"body":"a positive feedback loop where it"},{"startTime":1946.406,"endTime":1950.496,"body":"just simply builds on itself and"},{"startTime":1946.406,"endTime":1950.496,"body":"just goes spiraling into oblivion."},{"startTime":1950.746,"endTime":1954.566,"body":"The whole, the whole point you were making"},{"startTime":1950.746,"endTime":1954.566,"body":"there, at that time I was thinking about"},{"startTime":1954.576,"endTime":1956.386,"body":"companies that, there's so many of them."},{"startTime":1956.866,"endTime":1961.106,"body":"Sears, Kmart, I mean, you name it,"},{"startTime":1956.866,"endTime":1961.106,"body":"Blockbuster, all these companies that"},{"startTime":1961.106,"endTime":1964.196,"body":"said, yeah, it's new stuff, right?"},{"startTime":1964.796,"endTime":1967.196,"body":"The Googles of the world,"},{"startTime":1964.796,"endTime":1967.196,"body":"the new dot com stuff."},{"startTime":1967.496,"endTime":1968.826,"body":"We've been doing this for..."},{"startTime":1969.161,"endTime":1974.581,"body":"Over a hundred years, said the, someone"},{"startTime":1969.161,"endTime":1974.581,"body":"quite important at Sears Roebuck, I'm"},{"startTime":1974.581,"endTime":1979.221,"body":"sure at some point, but they ignored the"},{"startTime":1974.581,"endTime":1979.221,"body":"fact that the customer experience was so"},{"startTime":1979.221,"endTime":1981.991,"body":"much better with these other competitors."},{"startTime":1982.021,"endTime":1983.531,"body":"But these people are"},{"startTime":1982.021,"endTime":1983.531,"body":"like, well, what's Sears?"},{"startTime":1983.571,"endTime":1986.231,"body":"People are always going to come"},{"startTime":1983.571,"endTime":1986.231,"body":"at our doors and they didn't."},{"startTime":1986.231,"endTime":1988.061,"body":"Yeah, the funny thing is"},{"startTime":1986.231,"endTime":1988.061,"body":"this is not something."},{"startTime":1988.481,"endTime":1993.301,"body":"That I gained from my time, in"},{"startTime":1988.481,"endTime":1993.301,"body":"agile coaching, like being a scrum"},{"startTime":1993.301,"endTime":1994.141,"body":"master, being an agile coach."},{"startTime":1994.141,"endTime":1996.351,"body":"I did not gain these skills."},{"startTime":1996.401,"endTime":1998.151,"body":"I gained these skills"},{"startTime":1996.401,"endTime":1998.151,"body":"from product management."},{"startTime":1998.851,"endTime":2002.371,"body":"Understanding we should be constantly"},{"startTime":1998.851,"endTime":2002.371,"body":"doing market analysis in both"},{"startTime":2002.391,"endTime":2004.051,"body":"our market and adjacent markets."},{"startTime":2004.431,"endTime":2009.641,"body":"We also should be like sales and"},{"startTime":2004.431,"endTime":2009.641,"body":"marketing both should have boards that"},{"startTime":2009.641,"endTime":2012.271,"body":"I can go look at or backlog Whatever"},{"startTime":2009.641,"endTime":2012.271,"body":"you want to translate to basically"},{"startTime":2012.461,"endTime":2015.931,"body":"sales and marketing both should have"},{"startTime":2012.461,"endTime":2015.931,"body":"What have you tried in this market?"},{"startTime":2016.011,"endTime":2018.251,"body":"What, what, what, what"},{"startTime":2016.011,"endTime":2018.251,"body":"positioning is resonating?"},{"startTime":2018.261,"endTime":2020.289,"body":"With these different"},{"startTime":2018.261,"endTime":2020.289,"body":"personas and what is not?"},{"startTime":2021.089,"endTime":2024.899,"body":"And, I need to know that because when"},{"startTime":2021.089,"endTime":2024.899,"body":"I'm building products, why would I build"},{"startTime":2024.899,"endTime":2027.249,"body":"a product that's no longer resonating?"},{"startTime":2027.369,"endTime":2029.009,"body":"Or why would I enhance a product?"},{"startTime":2029.069,"endTime":2032.929,"body":"You know, if you're looking at the,"},{"startTime":2029.069,"endTime":2032.929,"body":"the product life cycle, the product"},{"startTime":2032.929,"endTime":2038.029,"body":"life cycle where, it has like a it's"},{"startTime":2032.929,"endTime":2038.029,"body":"growing and then it's stable and then"},{"startTime":2038.029,"endTime":2039.469,"body":"you start winding it down and whatever."},{"startTime":2039.519,"endTime":2043.219,"body":"If the market's winding down, should"},{"startTime":2039.519,"endTime":2043.219,"body":"my product not also be winding down?"},{"startTime":2043.219,"endTime":2045.869,"body":"Why should I be throwing more"},{"startTime":2043.219,"endTime":2045.869,"body":"and more and more money into a"},{"startTime":2045.869,"endTime":2047.629,"body":"diminishing, diminishing market?"},{"startTime":2047.899,"endTime":2049.759,"body":"Because sales tells you, right?"},{"startTime":2050.239,"endTime":2054.169,"body":"So yeah, I absolutely agree that they,"},{"startTime":2050.239,"endTime":2054.169,"body":"if they don't have that, that whole"},{"startTime":2054.189,"endTime":2057.889,"body":"experimentation mindset, they'll say, we"},{"startTime":2054.189,"endTime":2057.889,"body":"need to keep investing in this product."},{"startTime":2058.009,"endTime":2059.739,"body":"Well, how do you know"},{"startTime":2058.009,"endTime":2059.739,"body":"there's a demand for it?"},{"startTime":2060.129,"endTime":2061.199,"body":"Well, trust me, there is."},{"startTime":2061.209,"endTime":2063.299,"body":"Well, if you're working at a"},{"startTime":2061.209,"endTime":2063.299,"body":"feature factory, you've always"},{"startTime":2063.299,"endTime":2064.539,"body":"taken your orders from sales."},{"startTime":2064.909,"endTime":2065.959,"body":"They tell you what they're doing."},{"startTime":2065.959,"endTime":2070.779,"body":"You know, Oh, we could, this client told"},{"startTime":2065.959,"endTime":2070.779,"body":"us if we just add two more widgets, in"},{"startTime":2070.779,"endTime":2072.839,"body":"our app, they would have signed with us."},{"startTime":2073.309,"endTime":2075.639,"body":"So you need to add those two"},{"startTime":2073.309,"endTime":2075.639,"body":"widgets for this client that"},{"startTime":2075.639,"endTime":2077.129,"body":"we didn't get in the pipeline."},{"startTime":2077.129,"endTime":2078.949,"body":"Like, wait a minute, I"},{"startTime":2077.129,"endTime":2078.949,"body":"don't need to do that."},{"startTime":2079.854,"endTime":2082.194,"body":"You, we, we repassed on"},{"startTime":2079.854,"endTime":2082.194,"body":"the, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2082.194,"endTime":2083.104,"body":"Why would I do that?"},{"startTime":2083.104,"endTime":2088.504,"body":"So bringing this back to what do you"},{"startTime":2083.104,"endTime":2088.504,"body":"do now you've decided to go agile."},{"startTime":2088.864,"endTime":2093.714,"body":"It just shows how you've got to keep all"},{"startTime":2088.864,"endTime":2093.714,"body":"the different departments of an enterprise"},{"startTime":2093.954,"endTime":2098.644,"body":"on side so that sales aren't selling"},{"startTime":2093.954,"endTime":2098.644,"body":"past the specifications of the product"},{"startTime":2098.654,"endTime":2104.594,"body":"line, or they're not selling in excessive"},{"startTime":2098.654,"endTime":2104.594,"body":"quantity beyond your ability to service."},{"startTime":2105.494,"endTime":2110.674,"body":"And so this whole collaboration"},{"startTime":2105.494,"endTime":2110.674,"body":"mindset needs to be instilled in the"},{"startTime":2110.674,"endTime":2114.104,"body":"enterprise, particularly leadership"},{"startTime":2110.674,"endTime":2114.104,"body":"right at the very beginning."},{"startTime":2114.424,"endTime":2116.504,"body":"Otherwise you're setting"},{"startTime":2114.424,"endTime":2116.504,"body":"yourself up for failure."},{"startTime":2117.174,"endTime":2120.394,"body":"And one of the things I want"},{"startTime":2117.174,"endTime":2120.394,"body":"to talk about for a minute,"},{"startTime":2120.624,"endTime":2122.634,"body":"pursuant to all of that, is this."},{"startTime":2122.884,"endTime":2129.979,"body":"Are the right people going to be available"},{"startTime":2122.884,"endTime":2129.979,"body":"to you to give input and to talk to, and"},{"startTime":2130.309,"endTime":2132.989,"body":"give ideas, and create feedback for you."},{"startTime":2133.21,"endTime":2137.75,"body":"I don't know what your experience is,"},{"startTime":2133.21,"endTime":2137.75,"body":"fellas, but I would say at least half"},{"startTime":2137.75,"endTime":2142.41,"body":"of the time, I ask those specific"},{"startTime":2137.75,"endTime":2142.41,"body":"questions up front, and I get that,"},{"startTime":2142.47,"endTime":2145.61,"body":"Oh yeah, we're on side with you,"},{"startTime":2142.47,"endTime":2145.61,"body":"we'll be there for you, William."},{"startTime":2145.61,"endTime":2148.01,"body":"Look, there's, nothing's"},{"startTime":2145.61,"endTime":2148.01,"body":"more important than this."},{"startTime":2148.3,"endTime":2149.62,"body":"We know we need to change."},{"startTime":2150.265,"endTime":2154.445,"body":"And over time, that commitment,"},{"startTime":2150.265,"endTime":2154.445,"body":"even if it was honestly given up"},{"startTime":2154.445,"endTime":2156.375,"body":"front, diminishes, doesn't it, guys?"},{"startTime":2156.655,"endTime":2157.355,"body":"It plummets."},{"startTime":2157.375,"endTime":2158.815,"body":"It doesn't just diminish, mate."},{"startTime":2158.855,"endTime":2161.105,"body":"It actually plummets, I found."},{"startTime":2161.115,"endTime":2164.675,"body":"Because they're just there, look,"},{"startTime":2161.115,"endTime":2164.675,"body":"they're just there paying lip service."},{"startTime":2164.975,"endTime":2167.895,"body":"Because their boss is in the"},{"startTime":2164.975,"endTime":2167.895,"body":"room, quite frankly, right?"},{"startTime":2168.085,"endTime":2168.965,"body":"So that's what they say."},{"startTime":2168.975,"endTime":2169.475,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2169.64,"endTime":2170.01,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2170.01,"endTime":2170.72,"body":"We're right behind you."},{"startTime":2170.72,"endTime":2171.58,"body":"And then, right."},{"startTime":2171.62,"endTime":2174.72,"body":"As soon as that, that meeting's"},{"startTime":2171.62,"endTime":2174.72,"body":"over, they're like, okay."},{"startTime":2174.77,"endTime":2175.18,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2175.26,"endTime":2175.66,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":2176.06,"endTime":2178.23,"body":"If you're sticking with"},{"startTime":2176.06,"endTime":2178.23,"body":"your terrible org design."},{"startTime":2178.48,"endTime":2179.39,"body":"I'm right there with you."},{"startTime":2180.0,"endTime":2183.42,"body":"However, like the, the better"},{"startTime":2180.0,"endTime":2183.42,"body":"organization is one where you've"},{"startTime":2183.49,"endTime":2185.63,"body":"broken out these functions in the team."},{"startTime":2185.63,"endTime":2189.05,"body":"So you don't need to go and get 30"},{"startTime":2185.63,"endTime":2189.05,"body":"people in a room to make a decision."},{"startTime":2189.33,"endTime":2194.28,"body":"You just got to get a, a, a cross team"},{"startTime":2189.33,"endTime":2194.28,"body":"sliver of all the different teams it"},{"startTime":2194.28,"endTime":2198.63,"body":"takes to implement something even if your"},{"startTime":2194.28,"endTime":2198.63,"body":"product was like a, like the Microsoft"},{"startTime":2198.81,"endTime":2202.62,"body":"office suite and you had to go get a"},{"startTime":2198.81,"endTime":2202.62,"body":"different product manager for, each"},{"startTime":2202.62,"endTime":2204.12,"body":"of the different, you had to get your."},{"startTime":2204.475,"endTime":2206.505,"body":"Does OneNote even, is"},{"startTime":2204.475,"endTime":2206.505,"body":"that a real application?"},{"startTime":2206.505,"endTime":2207.265,"body":"Yeah, it's still an app."},{"startTime":2207.465,"endTime":2209.895,"body":"You gotta go get your Outlook"},{"startTime":2207.465,"endTime":2209.895,"body":"guy and your Excel guy."},{"startTime":2210.065,"endTime":2210.895,"body":"I'm assuming they're not women."},{"startTime":2211.085,"endTime":2216.145,"body":"You gotta go get your Outlook woman and"},{"startTime":2211.085,"endTime":2216.145,"body":"your Excel woman and your Word person."},{"startTime":2216.385,"endTime":2217.155,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":2217.611,"endTime":2221.401,"body":"as opposed to if I don't change my"},{"startTime":2217.611,"endTime":2221.401,"body":"terrible org design and now I've gotta"},{"startTime":2221.401,"endTime":2227.101,"body":"get, I've got to get the person who makes"},{"startTime":2221.401,"endTime":2227.101,"body":"decisions for Word and their boss and"},{"startTime":2227.101,"endTime":2231.361,"body":"then maybe the department boss over that"},{"startTime":2227.101,"endTime":2231.361,"body":"who's supervises both of them but then"},{"startTime":2231.481,"endTime":2234.551,"body":"whoever's making the change sending it"},{"startTime":2231.481,"endTime":2234.551,"body":"from this other application I get their,"},{"startTime":2234.591,"endTime":2238.191,"body":"their boss and I get the okay to send"},{"startTime":2234.591,"endTime":2238.191,"body":"data from this system to that system"},{"startTime":2238.191,"endTime":2241.521,"body":"and then it's managed by some other"},{"startTime":2238.191,"endTime":2241.521,"body":"platform team so I got to get them on"},{"startTime":2241.521,"endTime":2244.006,"body":"the line And open a ticket to get access"},{"startTime":2244.006,"endTime":2247.026,"body":"like, so if you can get them all"},{"startTime":2244.006,"endTime":2247.026,"body":"together, now you've got, now you've"},{"startTime":2247.026,"endTime":2251.876,"body":"got 50 people sat on a team's call"},{"startTime":2247.026,"endTime":2251.876,"body":"or something, most of whom are either"},{"startTime":2251.876,"endTime":2257.906,"body":"falling asleep or checking their bank"},{"startTime":2251.876,"endTime":2257.906,"body":"balance or emailing somebody and, they're"},{"startTime":2257.906,"endTime":2259.436,"body":"not engaged and they're not relevant."},{"startTime":2259.446,"endTime":2262.736,"body":"That's that's like, there are some"},{"startTime":2259.446,"endTime":2262.736,"body":"of this, again, this is why I got"},{"startTime":2262.736,"endTime":2265.006,"body":"out of this career field because"},{"startTime":2262.736,"endTime":2265.006,"body":"like, there's some of these that,"},{"startTime":2265.026,"endTime":2266.656,"body":"that you will not be successful."},{"startTime":2267.106,"endTime":2270.951,"body":"When these factors are working against"},{"startTime":2267.106,"endTime":2270.951,"body":"you if the org is not designed For any"},{"startTime":2270.951,"endTime":2274.811,"body":"kind of success with agility like you"},{"startTime":2270.951,"endTime":2274.811,"body":"I mean, I guess you could try to reform"},{"startTime":2274.811,"endTime":2279.761,"body":"the whole if you're if you're positioned"},{"startTime":2274.811,"endTime":2279.761,"body":"High enough with the right people in you"},{"startTime":2279.761,"endTime":2282.901,"body":"know Or if you're in a small company and"},{"startTime":2279.761,"endTime":2282.901,"body":"you have direct access to the c suite"},{"startTime":2283.026,"endTime":2284.516,"body":"then maybe you can make this difference."},{"startTime":2284.586,"endTime":2288.506,"body":"Like I, but I don't like a lot of what"},{"startTime":2284.586,"endTime":2288.506,"body":"I've experience is you're not there."},{"startTime":2288.666,"endTime":2292.456,"body":"You're stuck in the mud trying"},{"startTime":2288.666,"endTime":2292.456,"body":"to make these improvements."},{"startTime":2292.456,"endTime":2295.526,"body":"And it's like, I mean, they might,"},{"startTime":2292.456,"endTime":2295.526,"body":"they may stay improved even if"},{"startTime":2295.526,"endTime":2298.206,"body":"you're really good and really"},{"startTime":2295.526,"endTime":2298.206,"body":"effective as long as you are there."},{"startTime":2298.466,"endTime":2302.476,"body":"And as long as that person in the"},{"startTime":2298.466,"endTime":2302.476,"body":"leadership is there, but the minute"},{"startTime":2302.476,"endTime":2305.386,"body":"that either you go away or the"},{"startTime":2302.476,"endTime":2305.386,"body":"lead or the person in leadership"},{"startTime":2305.386,"endTime":2307.426,"body":"goes away, all your work goes away."},{"startTime":2307.446,"endTime":2311.046,"body":"And like that, I just can't,"},{"startTime":2307.446,"endTime":2311.046,"body":"I am not okay with that"},{"startTime":2311.336,"endTime":2316.906,"body":"I want to take a contrarian"},{"startTime":2311.336,"endTime":2316.906,"body":"position a little bit, it's very"},{"startTime":2316.916,"endTime":2319.296,"body":"satisfying when you're able to."},{"startTime":2320.031,"endTime":2325.081,"body":"Overcome a hurdle and make a"},{"startTime":2320.031,"endTime":2325.081,"body":"change in the team that makes a"},{"startTime":2325.081,"endTime":2327.451,"body":"difference to the organization."},{"startTime":2328.351,"endTime":2332.771,"body":"If you can get these little wins,"},{"startTime":2328.351,"endTime":2332.771,"body":"and sometimes they are only little"},{"startTime":2332.771,"endTime":2335.841,"body":"wins, it's really very rewarding."},{"startTime":2336.191,"endTime":2339.611,"body":"So don't think, because I think"},{"startTime":2336.191,"endTime":2339.611,"body":"we've had a bit of a negative tone"},{"startTime":2339.611,"endTime":2341.551,"body":"to this conversation if I'm honest."},{"startTime":2341.801,"endTime":2344.191,"body":"Don't think it's all doom and gloom."},{"startTime":2344.391,"endTime":2348.261,"body":"Yeah, be real, know that the"},{"startTime":2344.391,"endTime":2348.261,"body":"doom and gloom is out there."},{"startTime":2348.566,"endTime":2354.626,"body":"But also know that when you make a"},{"startTime":2348.566,"endTime":2354.626,"body":"change and it makes the world either less"},{"startTime":2354.626,"endTime":2359.806,"body":"stressful for the team, or you see the"},{"startTime":2354.626,"endTime":2359.806,"body":"velocity go up and you see productivity go"},{"startTime":2359.806,"endTime":2365.256,"body":"up, and you do see more coming out of that"},{"startTime":2359.806,"endTime":2365.256,"body":"black box on the right hand side, it, it's"},{"startTime":2365.256,"endTime":2367.576,"body":"very satisfying and it's very rewarding."},{"startTime":2367.986,"endTime":2371.316,"body":"And sooner or later, people"},{"startTime":2367.986,"endTime":2371.316,"body":"are going to take note."},{"startTime":2371.766,"endTime":2374.486,"body":"And they're going to say, hey,"},{"startTime":2371.766,"endTime":2374.486,"body":"wow, good, this is good now."},{"startTime":2374.506,"endTime":2375.556,"body":"I, I like this."},{"startTime":2375.556,"endTime":2376.816,"body":"I, I'm on side with it."},{"startTime":2376.896,"endTime":2377.206,"body":"Let's go."},{"startTime":2377.676,"endTime":2378.726,"body":"What else can we do?"},{"startTime":2379.546,"endTime":2381.316,"body":"'cause success breeds success."},{"startTime":2381.316,"endTime":2381.317,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2381.736,"endTime":2382.036,"body":"Bingo."},{"startTime":2382.036,"endTime":2382.426,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2382.486,"endTime":2385.216,"body":"So, so, so I wanted to just"},{"startTime":2382.486,"endTime":2385.216,"body":"inject that fellas to bring"},{"startTime":2385.216,"endTime":2386.416,"body":"some balance to the dialogue."},{"startTime":2386.446,"endTime":2389.506,"body":"Yeah, no, I'm glad you did that because"},{"startTime":2386.446,"endTime":2389.506,"body":"really all we do, we're not saying"},{"startTime":2389.506,"endTime":2392.986,"body":"that this is all just, we're just"},{"startTime":2389.506,"endTime":2392.986,"body":"gonna jump off a, full off a cliff."},{"startTime":2393.866,"endTime":2396.456,"body":"We're just pointing out to our viewership."},{"startTime":2397.066,"endTime":2398.026,"body":"Both of, both of them."},{"startTime":2398.146,"endTime":2398.806,"body":"Listenership."},{"startTime":2398.896,"endTime":2399.646,"body":"Both of them, yeah."},{"startTime":2399.78,"endTime":2402.366,"body":"Those of you that are on their,"},{"startTime":2399.78,"endTime":2402.366,"body":"on their treadmills listening"},{"startTime":2402.366,"endTime":2403.806,"body":"to us, those people too."},{"startTime":2404.016,"endTime":2404.166,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2404.196,"endTime":2406.117,"body":"That we're pointing out some of these."},{"startTime":2406.651,"endTime":2411.511,"body":"Potholes on your progress right along"},{"startTime":2406.651,"endTime":2411.511,"body":"your way, you're going to find these."},{"startTime":2411.521,"endTime":2412.561,"body":"So if you know they're there."},{"startTime":2413.536,"endTime":2417.116,"body":"That's our hope, that you can at"},{"startTime":2413.536,"endTime":2417.116,"body":"least see them coming at you, and"},{"startTime":2417.116,"endTime":2418.756,"body":"you can circumvent around them."},{"startTime":2419.006,"endTime":2421.186,"body":"have you ever had to advise?"},{"startTime":2421.686,"endTime":2426.436,"body":"A business that something like"},{"startTime":2421.686,"endTime":2426.436,"body":"this on current course and speed,"},{"startTime":2426.756,"endTime":2428.496,"body":"you can't get there from here."},{"startTime":2428.746,"endTime":2431.336,"body":"Have you guys had that"},{"startTime":2428.746,"endTime":2431.336,"body":"conversation ever with?"},{"startTime":2431.786,"endTime":2432.446,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2432.596,"endTime":2433.976,"body":"Yeah, we know for sure."},{"startTime":2433.996,"endTime":2434.276,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2434.296,"endTime":2438.426,"body":"I'm not going to say it was productive,"},{"startTime":2434.296,"endTime":2438.426,"body":"but I certainly have, but at least it"},{"startTime":2438.426,"endTime":2444.546,"body":"plants in the mind of, other people that"},{"startTime":2438.426,"endTime":2444.546,"body":"something significant needs to change."},{"startTime":2444.676,"endTime":2447.336,"body":"For me personally, it's gone one"},{"startTime":2444.676,"endTime":2447.336,"body":"of two different ways, right?"},{"startTime":2447.716,"endTime":2449.426,"body":"Yeah, it wasn't productive."},{"startTime":2449.686,"endTime":2450.846,"body":"They said, thanks for coming."},{"startTime":2451.136,"endTime":2453.786,"body":"I was just about to say, I know"},{"startTime":2451.136,"endTime":2453.786,"body":"one of the ways you're going."},{"startTime":2453.816,"endTime":2454.516,"body":"Yeah, now that's."},{"startTime":2455.201,"endTime":2457.428,"body":"You know, the one, one of"},{"startTime":2455.201,"endTime":2457.428,"body":"the ways I'm going is, we"},{"startTime":2457.428,"endTime":2459.588,"body":"believe you and, we know that."},{"startTime":2459.588,"endTime":2462.108,"body":"But this failure is tied to you."},{"startTime":2462.113,"endTime":2465.558,"body":"So if we just get rid of you and get a new"},{"startTime":2462.113,"endTime":2465.558,"body":"you, maybe we'll get a different message."},{"startTime":2465.618,"endTime":2466.128,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2466.338,"endTime":2467.028,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2467.158,"endTime":2471.798,"body":"Yeah, the odd times when I've had"},{"startTime":2467.158,"endTime":2471.798,"body":"a slightly different outcome out of"},{"startTime":2471.798,"endTime":2475.088,"body":"those discussions It's been similar"},{"startTime":2471.798,"endTime":2475.088,"body":"to what you were saying earlier."},{"startTime":2475.748,"endTime":2476.258,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":2476.838,"endTime":2478.308,"body":"This is very enlightening, right?"},{"startTime":2478.418,"endTime":2482.778,"body":"You're absolutely correct"},{"startTime":2478.418,"endTime":2482.778,"body":"We will change just not now."},{"startTime":2483.288,"endTime":2489.618,"body":"So then that's when you just say Because"},{"startTime":2483.288,"endTime":2489.618,"body":"if it's just not now what I'm hearing"},{"startTime":2489.948,"endTime":2494.078,"body":"what they're saying is just not now"},{"startTime":2489.948,"endTime":2494.078,"body":"What I'm hearing is, thanks for coming."},{"startTime":2494.328,"endTime":2495.808,"body":"Don't let the door hit you on the way out."},{"startTime":2496.168,"endTime":2501.658,"body":"Be sure to send a follow up email"},{"startTime":2496.168,"endTime":2501.658,"body":"memorializing the decision making process."},{"startTime":2501.938,"endTime":2502.578,"body":"It won't matter."},{"startTime":2503.243,"endTime":2505.633,"body":"Because they've already made"},{"startTime":2503.243,"endTime":2505.633,"body":"that decision in their minds."},{"startTime":2505.893,"endTime":2508.253,"body":"So, that, that's really how it's gone."},{"startTime":2508.993,"endTime":2514.143,"body":"I really long for the day when"},{"startTime":2508.993,"endTime":2514.143,"body":"they say, You're right, there is,"},{"startTime":2514.523,"endTime":2516.103,"body":"we're heading over the waterfall."},{"startTime":2516.703,"endTime":2517.823,"body":"We can see the edge."},{"startTime":2518.033,"endTime":2519.093,"body":"Thanks for pointing that out."},{"startTime":2519.613,"endTime":2521.263,"body":"What do we need to do to change?"},{"startTime":2521.783,"endTime":2524.363,"body":"I'm gonna say take those"},{"startTime":2521.783,"endTime":2524.363,"body":"oarsmen that are at the back"},{"startTime":2524.363,"endTime":2525.843,"body":"of the canoe, not at the front."},{"startTime":2526.203,"endTime":2528.593,"body":"And get them to go the opposite way."},{"startTime":2529.148,"endTime":2533.318,"body":"And now, take the ones that are in the"},{"startTime":2529.148,"endTime":2533.318,"body":"front, and get them to go the opposite"},{"startTime":2533.318,"endTime":2536.528,"body":"way, and we have a chance to turn this"},{"startTime":2533.318,"endTime":2536.528,"body":"thing around, at least go sideways,"},{"startTime":2536.838,"endTime":2538.648,"body":"and then hopefully we can get on shore."},{"startTime":2538.668,"endTime":2542.798,"body":"Yeah, you have to go in there with an"},{"startTime":2538.668,"endTime":2542.798,"body":"action plan, a remedial action plan, that"},{"startTime":2542.798,"endTime":2546.208,"body":"shows what the challenges are right now."},{"startTime":2547.083,"endTime":2554.333,"body":"Why, why we've, why we are failing"},{"startTime":2547.083,"endTime":2554.333,"body":"in the current approach and what the,"},{"startTime":2554.373,"endTime":2558.413,"body":"what the brave new world looks like,"},{"startTime":2554.373,"endTime":2558.413,"body":"the remediated approach is that like,"},{"startTime":2558.663,"endTime":2560.003,"body":"Oh, here, here's a good one."},{"startTime":2560.033,"endTime":2562.283,"body":"Here's a good, pushback for, for y'all."},{"startTime":2562.533,"endTime":2565.593,"body":"Is it okay to go in with an"},{"startTime":2562.533,"endTime":2565.593,"body":"action plan as an agile coach?"},{"startTime":2565.593,"endTime":2567.903,"body":"Cause I feel like the"},{"startTime":2565.593,"endTime":2567.903,"body":"typical agile coach will say."},{"startTime":2568.843,"endTime":2571.673,"body":"I'm just going to meet you where"},{"startTime":2568.843,"endTime":2571.673,"body":"you are and everything's fine."},{"startTime":2572.213,"endTime":2574.753,"body":"Oh, look, I want to,"},{"startTime":2572.213,"endTime":2574.753,"body":"I want to buy my book."},{"startTime":2574.863,"endTime":2576.203,"body":"No, I want to dig into it."},{"startTime":2576.393,"endTime":2577.223,"body":"I want to dig into it."},{"startTime":2577.333,"endTime":2581.033,"body":"But I want to finish the, the"},{"startTime":2577.333,"endTime":2581.033,"body":"thought I had when you said"},{"startTime":2581.043,"endTime":2582.343,"body":"go in with an action plan."},{"startTime":2583.043,"endTime":2586.563,"body":"It's so tactically speaking,"},{"startTime":2583.043,"endTime":2586.563,"body":"you go in with an action plan."},{"startTime":2586.813,"endTime":2588.383,"body":"My advice to those of you that are."},{"startTime":2588.593,"endTime":2593.273,"body":"thinking about doing this is going"},{"startTime":2588.593,"endTime":2593.273,"body":"with two going with an action plan that"},{"startTime":2593.273,"endTime":2598.803,"body":"you know is absolutely unrealistic,"},{"startTime":2593.273,"endTime":2598.803,"body":"ridiculous, whatever, propose"},{"startTime":2598.803,"endTime":2601.023,"body":"that so they will knock it down."},{"startTime":2601.363,"endTime":2602.733,"body":"We've said this on the podcast."},{"startTime":2602.753,"endTime":2606.063,"body":"I've said it before, prop it"},{"startTime":2602.753,"endTime":2606.063,"body":"up so they can knock it down."},{"startTime":2606.718,"endTime":2608.248,"body":"That's what this is, right?"},{"startTime":2608.258,"endTime":2610.798,"body":"So you're going to say something"},{"startTime":2608.258,"endTime":2610.798,"body":"that is completely ridiculous, and"},{"startTime":2610.798,"endTime":2612.288,"body":"they'll say, that'll never work."},{"startTime":2612.678,"endTime":2614.358,"body":"And you go, okay, how about this?"},{"startTime":2614.418,"endTime":2617.308,"body":"And that's when your true"},{"startTime":2614.418,"endTime":2617.308,"body":"action plan is revealed, right?"},{"startTime":2617.558,"endTime":2620.678,"body":"I don't know why, psychologists"},{"startTime":2617.558,"endTime":2620.678,"body":"will tell us why, I'm sure."},{"startTime":2620.678,"endTime":2623.728,"body":"But, and if you're a psychologist,"},{"startTime":2620.678,"endTime":2623.728,"body":"please, let us know in the"},{"startTime":2623.728,"endTime":2627.128,"body":"comments below, but this actually"},{"startTime":2623.728,"endTime":2627.128,"body":"has a better chance of working."},{"startTime":2627.128,"endTime":2628.638,"body":"At least that's been my experience."},{"startTime":2628.668,"endTime":2631.068,"body":"They just say you're wrong"},{"startTime":2628.668,"endTime":2631.068,"body":"about that first one, but this"},{"startTime":2631.068,"endTime":2632.518,"body":"one, this might have some legs."},{"startTime":2632.748,"endTime":2633.568,"body":"Let's talk about that."},{"startTime":2634.178,"endTime":2637.638,"body":"Whereas if I had just presented"},{"startTime":2634.178,"endTime":2637.638,"body":"option number two as my only"},{"startTime":2637.638,"endTime":2641.568,"body":"option, it would have had the same"},{"startTime":2637.638,"endTime":2641.568,"body":"outcome as option number one did."},{"startTime":2641.738,"endTime":2644.248,"body":"Nah, that'll never work"},{"startTime":2641.738,"endTime":2644.248,"body":"here because, we're special."},{"startTime":2644.373,"endTime":2647.073,"body":"I already forgot what,"},{"startTime":2644.373,"endTime":2647.073,"body":"what my challenge was."},{"startTime":2647.323,"endTime":2649.703,"body":"It wasn't about anything I had"},{"startTime":2647.323,"endTime":2649.703,"body":"written down, which is the worst."},{"startTime":2650.193,"endTime":2652.143,"body":"Or the best, depending"},{"startTime":2650.193,"endTime":2652.143,"body":"on how you look at it."},{"startTime":2652.268,"endTime":2655.338,"body":". Oh, I know, it was, it was, you"},{"startTime":2652.268,"endTime":2655.338,"body":"saying going in there with a plan,"},{"startTime":2655.508,"endTime":2658.948,"body":"and, and I was saying, isn't going"},{"startTime":2655.508,"endTime":2658.948,"body":"in there with a plan, the, the..."},{"startTime":2659.198,"endTime":2664.028,"body":"What you're told not to do, like go in"},{"startTime":2659.198,"endTime":2664.028,"body":"there and, every customer is a unique,"},{"startTime":2664.038,"endTime":2666.718,"body":"special, they get a special star."},{"startTime":2666.718,"endTime":2669.768,"body":"And every problem is completely"},{"startTime":2666.718,"endTime":2669.768,"body":"unique and different."},{"startTime":2669.778,"endTime":2671.188,"body":"Yes, yes, yes."},{"startTime":2671.208,"endTime":2673.728,"body":"This is the, this is"},{"startTime":2671.208,"endTime":2673.728,"body":"the textbook coming out."},{"startTime":2673.988,"endTime":2676.958,"body":"I'm going to tell you what's real guys."},{"startTime":2677.458,"endTime":2678.468,"body":"And it's this"},{"startTime":2678.718,"endTime":2684.798,"body":"every organization and every team has"},{"startTime":2678.718,"endTime":2684.798,"body":"a different level of maturity to it."},{"startTime":2685.048,"endTime":2688.208,"body":"And the stuff you read about"},{"startTime":2685.048,"endTime":2688.208,"body":"in textbooks works just fine."},{"startTime":2688.478,"endTime":2693.608,"body":"If your organization is mature in"},{"startTime":2688.478,"endTime":2693.608,"body":"its thinking, particularly it's agile"},{"startTime":2693.628,"endTime":2699.198,"body":"thinking, and if your teams are mature,"},{"startTime":2693.628,"endTime":2699.198,"body":"sophisticated, cross functional,"},{"startTime":2699.258,"endTime":2704.448,"body":"agile teams in that environment,"},{"startTime":2699.258,"endTime":2704.448,"body":"then yes, you can coach coach."},{"startTime":2704.698,"endTime":2709.008,"body":"As their level of maturity"},{"startTime":2704.698,"endTime":2709.008,"body":"and sophistication diminishes,"},{"startTime":2709.808,"endTime":2711.598,"body":"I have found that I have to."},{"startTime":2711.848,"endTime":2716.208,"body":"step a little bit away from"},{"startTime":2711.848,"endTime":2716.208,"body":"coaching and start leading."},{"startTime":2716.508,"endTime":2718.178,"body":"Because they don't know"},{"startTime":2716.508,"endTime":2718.178,"body":"what they don't know."},{"startTime":2718.428,"endTime":2723.258,"body":"So where that tipping point is, you have"},{"startTime":2718.428,"endTime":2723.258,"body":"to kind of feel your way forward a bit."},{"startTime":2724.138,"endTime":2727.798,"body":"And you have to sense when"},{"startTime":2724.138,"endTime":2727.798,"body":"it's a good time just to coach."},{"startTime":2728.598,"endTime":2733.698,"body":"Also, when you need to plug the gap, if"},{"startTime":2728.598,"endTime":2733.698,"body":"that's the right metaphor, and go into"},{"startTime":2733.698,"endTime":2737.358,"body":"a little bit of leadership teaching"},{"startTime":2733.698,"endTime":2737.358,"body":"to put them on the right track again."},{"startTime":2737.558,"endTime":2739.618,"body":"As I said, because they don't"},{"startTime":2737.558,"endTime":2739.618,"body":"know what they don't know."},{"startTime":2740.138,"endTime":2744.848,"body":"And there's always some bright spark with"},{"startTime":2740.138,"endTime":2744.848,"body":"a brainwave that could derail everything."},{"startTime":2744.948,"endTime":2747.158,"body":"The loudest voice in the room syndrome."},{"startTime":2747.638,"endTime":2750.098,"body":"So, that's again where"},{"startTime":2747.638,"endTime":2750.098,"body":"you have to step up."},{"startTime":2750.398,"endTime":2751.698,"body":"You have to have the confidence."},{"startTime":2752.038,"endTime":2754.988,"body":"You have to have the knowledge"},{"startTime":2752.038,"endTime":2754.988,"body":"base, the chops to know what"},{"startTime":2754.988,"endTime":2759.448,"body":"you're talking about, and you have"},{"startTime":2754.988,"endTime":2759.448,"body":"to, you have to teach and lead."},{"startTime":2759.668,"endTime":2763.618,"body":"So it's on a spectrum and it's"},{"startTime":2759.668,"endTime":2763.618,"body":"up to you to figure out how to"},{"startTime":2763.618,"endTime":2765.008,"body":"move up and down that spectrum."},{"startTime":2765.038,"endTime":2766.828,"body":"So that's my rebuttal to that proposition."},{"startTime":2766.828,"endTime":2771.048,"body":"Yeah, I mean, yeah, but you, like you"},{"startTime":2766.828,"endTime":2771.048,"body":"threw out a whole bunch of new ideas"},{"startTime":2771.058,"endTime":2774.398,"body":"that I want to keep going on , but"},{"startTime":2771.058,"endTime":2774.398,"body":"also like a whole bunch of new ideas,"},{"startTime":2774.398,"endTime":2779.588,"body":"which is, You, you go in there with"},{"startTime":2774.398,"endTime":2779.588,"body":"a plan, but, but, either, I don't"},{"startTime":2779.588,"endTime":2784.998,"body":"remember which one of you exactly said,"},{"startTime":2779.588,"endTime":2784.998,"body":"go in there with a, like a vision for"},{"startTime":2784.998,"endTime":2788.488,"body":"their organizational transformation."},{"startTime":2788.588,"endTime":2790.508,"body":"Let's pretend that I'm coming"},{"startTime":2788.588,"endTime":2790.508,"body":"in on contract for a second."},{"startTime":2790.608,"endTime":2791.658,"body":"I'm coming in this contract."},{"startTime":2791.718,"endTime":2792.768,"body":"I'm going to be your agile coach."},{"startTime":2792.788,"endTime":2793.428,"body":"I'm your partner."},{"startTime":2793.728,"endTime":2795.078,"body":"this is what your organization looks like."},{"startTime":2795.078,"endTime":2797.088,"body":"Now I've, I've gone through,"},{"startTime":2795.078,"endTime":2797.088,"body":"I've interviewed people."},{"startTime":2797.088,"endTime":2798.178,"body":"I've taught, I've had one on ones."},{"startTime":2798.828,"endTime":2800.378,"body":"You know, I met with all the"},{"startTime":2798.828,"endTime":2800.378,"body":"different departments, all different"},{"startTime":2800.388,"endTime":2802.458,"body":"leads, all up and down the pyramid."},{"startTime":2802.708,"endTime":2805.038,"body":"I'm assuming they're,"},{"startTime":2802.708,"endTime":2805.038,"body":"they're, they have a pyramid."},{"startTime":2805.138,"endTime":2805.658,"body":"Most do."},{"startTime":2805.768,"endTime":2806.428,"body":"Pyramid structure."},{"startTime":2806.663,"endTime":2811.613,"body":"And this is what your organization will"},{"startTime":2806.663,"endTime":2811.613,"body":"look like 18 months from now, I've done"},{"startTime":2811.613,"endTime":2814.783,"body":"at that point what adjunct coaches say"},{"startTime":2811.613,"endTime":2814.783,"body":"like, Oh no, you should never do that."},{"startTime":2814.793,"endTime":2815.333,"body":"How could you?"},{"startTime":2815.718,"endTime":2816.398,"body":"Possibly."},{"startTime":2816.628,"endTime":2818.978,"body":"I'm like, yeah, but you got"},{"startTime":2816.628,"endTime":2818.978,"body":"like part of leadership is"},{"startTime":2818.978,"endTime":2819.948,"body":"leading them towards a vision."},{"startTime":2820.148,"endTime":2823.028,"body":"If you don't outline something, what"},{"startTime":2820.148,"endTime":2823.028,"body":"you're going to get is every single"},{"startTime":2823.028,"endTime":2827.728,"body":"manager's vision of their, how the"},{"startTime":2823.028,"endTime":2827.728,"body":"organization can be kind of crowbar"},{"startTime":2827.738,"endTime":2829.698,"body":"to service their little department."},{"startTime":2829.698,"endTime":2831.068,"body":"And then they're going to"},{"startTime":2829.698,"endTime":2831.068,"body":"push forward with as much"},{"startTime":2831.068,"endTime":2832.938,"body":"political capital as they can."},{"startTime":2833.188,"endTime":2835.828,"body":"But the point is, like my point before."},{"startTime":2836.633,"endTime":2840.863,"body":"My negative Nancy point before"},{"startTime":2836.633,"endTime":2840.863,"body":"was it seems contrary to"},{"startTime":2840.863,"endTime":2843.273,"body":"everything I have been taught."},{"startTime":2843.318,"endTime":2848.458,"body":"I guess been taught, been exposed to"},{"startTime":2843.318,"endTime":2848.458,"body":"in my career of like, no, no, no, don't"},{"startTime":2848.488,"endTime":2852.438,"body":"go in there and outline a plan for them"},{"startTime":2848.488,"endTime":2852.438,"body":"because then if it all falls apart, it's"},{"startTime":2852.448,"endTime":2857.168,"body":"your specifically your fault because they"},{"startTime":2852.448,"endTime":2857.168,"body":"never took ownership of any of the work."},{"startTime":2857.518,"endTime":2858.408,"body":"Which is a very good point."},{"startTime":2858.458,"endTime":2862.438,"body":"I mean, it's, it's very, there's plenty"},{"startTime":2858.458,"endTime":2862.438,"body":"of ways to mitigate risk liability."},{"startTime":2862.458,"endTime":2865.068,"body":"So I, I'm never scared about that."},{"startTime":2865.243,"endTime":2869.113,"body":"Because if I see, if I see an enterprise"},{"startTime":2865.243,"endTime":2869.113,"body":"or a team doesn't know what they"},{"startTime":2869.113,"endTime":2874.163,"body":"don't know, I will go in with an"},{"startTime":2869.113,"endTime":2874.163,"body":"array of suggestions to start them"},{"startTime":2874.173,"endTime":2876.753,"body":"thinking about how to plug those gaps."},{"startTime":2877.468,"endTime":2881.748,"body":"And that may not suit the traditional"},{"startTime":2877.468,"endTime":2881.748,"body":"mold of what an agile coach shouldn't do."},{"startTime":2881.748,"endTime":2885.278,"body":"I've crossed a, I've crossed a line,"},{"startTime":2881.748,"endTime":2885.278,"body":"a tipping point, haven't I, there?"},{"startTime":2885.888,"endTime":2888.138,"body":"But I want to see them succeed."},{"startTime":2888.388,"endTime":2892.268,"body":"I can see from afar, as a dispassionate"},{"startTime":2888.388,"endTime":2892.268,"body":"consultant, what they're missing."},{"startTime":2892.898,"endTime":2896.678,"body":"So I feel I'm remiss if I don't"},{"startTime":2892.898,"endTime":2896.678,"body":"give them some ideas to noodle on."},{"startTime":2897.018,"endTime":2900.728,"body":"About what best practices"},{"startTime":2897.018,"endTime":2900.728,"body":"going forward might be."},{"startTime":2901.073,"endTime":2903.893,"body":"I'll throw a contentious one"},{"startTime":2901.073,"endTime":2903.893,"body":"out to get into straight away."},{"startTime":2903.893,"endTime":2906.713,"body":"Cause I'll partner with whatever"},{"startTime":2903.893,"endTime":2906.713,"body":"engineering leader or whatever."},{"startTime":2906.713,"endTime":2910.318,"body":"And I'll say, Hey, I've noticed, your"},{"startTime":2906.713,"endTime":2910.318,"body":"developers don't like, they do like"},{"startTime":2910.318,"endTime":2913.198,"body":"a formal code review at the end of"},{"startTime":2910.318,"endTime":2913.198,"body":"a work item or whatever, but they"},{"startTime":2913.198,"endTime":2915.808,"body":"don't peer while the work is going on."},{"startTime":2915.808,"endTime":2918.778,"body":"And like, you, you wouldn't have to go"},{"startTime":2915.808,"endTime":2918.778,"body":"through all this code review stuff if"},{"startTime":2918.778,"endTime":2921.318,"body":"you just had people peer the entire time."},{"startTime":2921.493,"endTime":2922.313,"body":"Have you thought about that?"},{"startTime":2922.313,"endTime":2924.273,"body":"What, why do you have a"},{"startTime":2922.313,"endTime":2924.273,"body":"reason for not doing that?"},{"startTime":2924.273,"endTime":2926.643,"body":"Or, what, what's, what's going on here?"},{"startTime":2927.303,"endTime":2930.353,"body":"Well, so the more, the more I talk,"},{"startTime":2927.303,"endTime":2930.353,"body":"the more accusatory it sounds."},{"startTime":2930.753,"endTime":2931.013,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2931.013,"endTime":2932.723,"body":"Then I, I get where you come from."},{"startTime":2932.723,"endTime":2936.698,"body":"So typically the comeback is, it'll"},{"startTime":2932.723,"endTime":2936.698,"body":"be like, what do you know, kid!"},{"startTime":2936.718,"endTime":2937.767,"body":"Get out of here!"},{"startTime":2937.768,"endTime":2941.828,"body":"And also the fact that they'll say,"},{"startTime":2937.768,"endTime":2941.828,"body":"well, on our team, we have these"},{"startTime":2941.828,"endTime":2946.598,"body":"developers and we have a tech lead,"},{"startTime":2941.828,"endTime":2946.598,"body":"so the tech lead has to basically,"},{"startTime":2947.248,"endTime":2950.518,"body":"review every PR and approve everything."},{"startTime":2951.368,"endTime":2956.078,"body":"As soon as I hear that, I'm thinking,"},{"startTime":2951.368,"endTime":2956.078,"body":"okay, we have a stage gate here, right?"},{"startTime":2956.348,"endTime":2959.268,"body":"This is not a cross functional team"},{"startTime":2956.348,"endTime":2959.268,"body":"at that point, because there's a"},{"startTime":2959.788,"endTime":2962.783,"body":"fear of trusting your team, right?"},{"startTime":2963.383,"endTime":2965.293,"body":"So that's what you focus on at that point."},{"startTime":2965.663,"endTime":2969.193,"body":"But going back to what you were"},{"startTime":2965.663,"endTime":2969.193,"body":"saying earlier, I thought immediately"},{"startTime":2969.193,"endTime":2972.973,"body":"about the festival metaphor."},{"startTime":2973.153,"endTime":2977.983,"body":"You go in there and you're on the"},{"startTime":2973.153,"endTime":2977.983,"body":"carousel, so that's all you care about"},{"startTime":2977.983,"endTime":2981.493,"body":"is going around on a horizontal surface,"},{"startTime":2977.983,"endTime":2981.493,"body":"but you're going around in circles."},{"startTime":2981.953,"endTime":2985.053,"body":"Granted, the horses might be going up"},{"startTime":2981.953,"endTime":2985.053,"body":"and down, but you're still on the ground."},{"startTime":2985.673,"endTime":2987.123,"body":"Or, you're on the ferris wheel."},{"startTime":2987.578,"endTime":2988.638,"body":"definitely off the ground."},{"startTime":2989.088,"endTime":2990.428,"body":"You want to get back on the ground."},{"startTime":2990.718,"endTime":2991.628,"body":"You hope you do."},{"startTime":2991.968,"endTime":2992.368,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2992.658,"endTime":2996.958,"body":"So it's like, it's what matters"},{"startTime":2992.658,"endTime":2996.958,"body":"to you at that point in time."},{"startTime":2997.238,"endTime":2998.698,"body":"Know where you need to be."},{"startTime":2999.038,"endTime":3002.458,"body":"If you don't know where you need"},{"startTime":2999.038,"endTime":3002.458,"body":"to be, you'll get somewhere, it"},{"startTime":3002.458,"endTime":3006.138,"body":"may not be where you actually have"},{"startTime":3002.458,"endTime":3006.138,"body":"to be, but you'll get somewhere."},{"startTime":3006.328,"endTime":3010.188,"body":"And this is why they"},{"startTime":3006.328,"endTime":3010.188,"body":"pay us the medium bucks."},{"startTime":3010.818,"endTime":3012.228,"body":"Oh wait, this?"},{"startTime":3012.478,"endTime":3012.698,"body":"Yeah!"},{"startTime":3012.948,"endTime":3014.458,"body":"I thought it was a labor of love!"},{"startTime":3014.708,"endTime":3015.898,"body":"Feels like it sometimes."},{"startTime":3015.898,"endTime":3017.278,"body":"It does, it certainly does."},{"startTime":3017.528,"endTime":3021.028,"body":"So, all right, so I think we, we kind"},{"startTime":3017.528,"endTime":3021.028,"body":"of need a, need a wrap up here, right?"},{"startTime":3021.168,"endTime":3022.308,"body":"Paying you guys?"},{"startTime":3022.558,"endTime":3023.308,"body":"There's a meme for that, I think."},{"startTime":3023.328,"endTime":3024.368,"body":"There is a meme for that."},{"startTime":3024.618,"endTime":3028.168,"body":"If, if you're still with us, the"},{"startTime":3024.618,"endTime":3028.168,"body":"two of you, thank you, first of all,"},{"startTime":3028.208,"endTime":3030.258,"body":"for, staying with us through the end."},{"startTime":3030.258,"endTime":3034.078,"body":"And do let us know, what your"},{"startTime":3030.258,"endTime":3034.078,"body":"thoughts are in the comments below."},{"startTime":3034.488,"endTime":3036.112,"body":"And, subscribe and like that."},{"startTime":3036.202,"endTime":3037.382,"body":"button down below."},{"startTime":3037.782,"endTime":3038.972,"body":"Be courageous."},{"startTime":3039.152,"endTime":3039.752,"body":"Indeed."}]}