{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":4.299,"body":"There are no notes to this podcast"},{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":4.299,"body":"because organizational design and"},{"startTime":4.449,"endTime":6.02,"body":"change management is not really taught."},{"startTime":6.17,"endTime":7.66,"body":"Nobody really is an expert."},{"startTime":7.66,"endTime":9.92,"body":"Nobody gets a degree in change management."},{"startTime":10.19,"endTime":13.86,"body":"I mean, if you do get a degree in"},{"startTime":10.19,"endTime":13.86,"body":"change management, feel free to write"},{"startTime":13.86,"endTime":16.54,"body":"me in the comments and tell me that"},{"startTime":13.86,"endTime":16.54,"body":"your degree is in change management."},{"startTime":16.58,"endTime":19.889,"body":"And also tell me where you got it from"},{"startTime":16.58,"endTime":19.889,"body":"so I can go back and get my doctorate."},{"startTime":20.039,"endTime":20.399,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":20.459,"endTime":21.629,"body":"So, agreed."},{"startTime":21.704,"endTime":26.499,"body":"In any kind of business degree, change"},{"startTime":21.704,"endTime":26.499,"body":"management is certainly covered however,"},{"startTime":26.709,"endTime":33.264,"body":"it becomes a huge part of what you are"},{"startTime":26.709,"endTime":33.264,"body":"experiencing in your organization or"},{"startTime":33.264,"endTime":40.294,"body":"potentially tasked with, being that change"},{"startTime":33.264,"endTime":40.294,"body":"agent, with or without previous experience"},{"startTime":40.294,"endTime":42.664,"body":"and really understanding what that means."},{"startTime":42.664,"endTime":44.639,"body":"What does it mean to manage change?"},{"startTime":44.714,"endTime":45.094,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":45.169,"endTime":48.839,"body":"I told you at the beginning, we kind"},{"startTime":45.169,"endTime":48.839,"body":"of covered this on the, previous"},{"startTime":48.839,"endTime":51.769,"body":"podcast with where William was"},{"startTime":48.839,"endTime":51.769,"body":"on, where we were talking about,"},{"startTime":51.919,"endTime":56.089,"body":"enterprise, agility, transformations,"},{"startTime":51.919,"endTime":56.089,"body":"basically agile transformations."},{"startTime":56.329,"endTime":59.199,"body":"I know it's not vogue to call them"},{"startTime":56.329,"endTime":59.199,"body":"agile transformations anymore."},{"startTime":59.349,"endTime":63.309,"body":"But regardless, like all agile"},{"startTime":59.349,"endTime":63.309,"body":"transformations are, is a series"},{"startTime":63.319,"endTime":65.039,"body":"of change management steps."},{"startTime":65.189,"endTime":68.779,"body":"Boiled down to a team level,"},{"startTime":65.189,"endTime":68.779,"body":"and then maybe like up through"},{"startTime":68.779,"endTime":69.819,"body":"the organizational level, but."},{"startTime":69.969,"endTime":74.899,"body":"That's all it is, and, a good portion of"},{"startTime":69.969,"endTime":74.899,"body":"the last podcast with William, were, I"},{"startTime":74.899,"endTime":79.769,"body":"was kind of beating up saying, I've been"},{"startTime":74.899,"endTime":79.769,"body":"in a lot of negative situations that I"},{"startTime":79.769,"endTime":84.539,"body":"can reference off the top of my head way"},{"startTime":79.769,"endTime":84.539,"body":"more than the positive situations where"},{"startTime":84.539,"endTime":88.023,"body":"people said, you know what, Brian, we're"},{"startTime":84.539,"endTime":88.023,"body":"not positioned for growth in the future."},{"startTime":88.023,"endTime":89.443,"body":"We're not positioned for success."},{"startTime":89.593,"endTime":90.943,"body":"You might be on to something."},{"startTime":91.043,"endTime":92.553,"body":"Let's fully dedicate."},{"startTime":92.553,"endTime":96.803,"body":"We're all in to this like let's figure out"},{"startTime":92.553,"endTime":96.803,"body":"how to get through this change together."},{"startTime":96.853,"endTime":101.093,"body":"Mm hmm Said no one ever"},{"startTime":96.853,"endTime":101.093,"body":"exactly said no one ever"},{"startTime":101.213,"endTime":102.543,"body":"so, where do we start right?"},{"startTime":102.543,"endTime":106.893,"body":"I would venture to say that no one"},{"startTime":102.543,"endTime":106.893,"body":"is an expert in change management"},{"startTime":106.923,"endTime":112.593,"body":"because there is no one, script, no,"},{"startTime":106.923,"endTime":112.593,"body":"no one prescription that I can write,"},{"startTime":112.653,"endTime":116.153,"body":"that I can write, or one, no one"},{"startTime":112.653,"endTime":116.153,"body":"checklist that I can give to someone"},{"startTime":116.153,"endTime":120.263,"body":"and say, here you go, this, this'll,"},{"startTime":116.153,"endTime":120.263,"body":"this'll, this'll fix everything, right?"},{"startTime":120.413,"endTime":124.613,"body":"But, it's easy to, I would"},{"startTime":120.413,"endTime":124.613,"body":"say fairly easy to recognize."},{"startTime":124.663,"endTime":127.423,"body":"This is basically the entire"},{"startTime":124.663,"endTime":127.423,"body":"space where, where your enterprise"},{"startTime":127.423,"endTime":128.853,"body":"agility people, operate."},{"startTime":129.203,"endTime":132.748,"body":", I hear what you're saying about,"},{"startTime":129.203,"endTime":132.748,"body":"the team, every team is, A"},{"startTime":132.748,"endTime":134.948,"body":"special, unique, I'm going here."},{"startTime":134.948,"endTime":137.898,"body":"Now I hear what you're saying about"},{"startTime":134.948,"endTime":137.898,"body":"every team is special and unique."},{"startTime":137.908,"endTime":141.998,"body":"And like every company is also a"},{"startTime":137.908,"endTime":141.998,"body":"special and unique, and we're all"},{"startTime":142.318,"endTime":144.718,"body":"together inside special and unique."},{"startTime":144.888,"endTime":147.738,"body":"That was, that was, that was for the"},{"startTime":144.888,"endTime":147.738,"body":"people, people are listening to podcasts."},{"startTime":147.738,"endTime":148.828,"body":"I'll never see what I just did."},{"startTime":148.978,"endTime":151.728,"body":"But, trust me, you're a"},{"startTime":148.978,"endTime":151.728,"body":"special and I believe in you."},{"startTime":151.878,"endTime":157.888,"body":"But also, there's a playbook, that"},{"startTime":151.878,"endTime":157.888,"body":"if you generally follow the playbook,"},{"startTime":158.038,"endTime":162.698,"body":"you'll generally, again, generally,"},{"startTime":158.038,"endTime":162.698,"body":"quote generally, Be successful."},{"startTime":162.908,"endTime":165.588,"body":"And Agile coaches basically"},{"startTime":162.908,"endTime":165.588,"body":"know what that playbook is."},{"startTime":165.673,"endTime":170.093,"body":"If you're checking off that, that"},{"startTime":165.673,"endTime":170.093,"body":"like lowest of low hanging fruit, I"},{"startTime":170.103,"endTime":173.563,"body":"think that's where your enterprise"},{"startTime":170.103,"endTime":173.563,"body":"agile coach will start to say, well,"},{"startTime":173.563,"endTime":175.443,"body":"how often do you talk to customers?"},{"startTime":175.443,"endTime":176.653,"body":"They'll start with questions like that."},{"startTime":176.803,"endTime":178.723,"body":"So there, there is some easy stuff."},{"startTime":178.873,"endTime":180.803,"body":"I think we're making a"},{"startTime":178.873,"endTime":180.803,"body":"big leap here though."},{"startTime":180.843,"endTime":183.353,"body":"So what you've said, so"},{"startTime":180.843,"endTime":183.353,"body":"that's probably right."},{"startTime":183.363,"endTime":183.693,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":183.893,"endTime":185.013,"body":"So yes."},{"startTime":185.233,"endTime":189.403,"body":"I think there's some, some, there"},{"startTime":185.233,"endTime":189.403,"body":"is a playbook and certainly people"},{"startTime":189.403,"endTime":193.883,"body":"who have expertise in identifying"},{"startTime":189.403,"endTime":193.883,"body":"that, those needs and potentially"},{"startTime":193.883,"endTime":198.883,"body":"prioritizing kind of figuring out in"},{"startTime":193.883,"endTime":198.883,"body":"which manner to organize those things."},{"startTime":199.033,"endTime":202.733,"body":"Uh, but that's assuming that we have"},{"startTime":199.033,"endTime":202.733,"body":"an enterprise agile coach or any"},{"startTime":202.733,"endTime":204.923,"body":"coach, agile coach at all, which."},{"startTime":205.078,"endTime":209.708,"body":"in and of itself assumes that we"},{"startTime":205.078,"endTime":209.708,"body":"have some buy in from somebody to"},{"startTime":209.748,"endTime":212.848,"body":"actually work on making change."},{"startTime":212.858,"endTime":213.748,"body":"You're absolutely right."},{"startTime":213.748,"endTime":213.928,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":213.948,"endTime":219.428,"body":"It assumes at some level that somebody"},{"startTime":213.948,"endTime":219.428,"body":"knows that there is an issue that needs"},{"startTime":219.428,"endTime":222.098,"body":"to be resolved and they are seeking help."},{"startTime":222.208,"endTime":222.618,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":222.688,"endTime":222.948,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":223.208,"endTime":225.688,"body":"So whether that person is a contractor"},{"startTime":223.208,"endTime":225.688,"body":"or whether you've taken a leap to"},{"startTime":225.688,"endTime":227.258,"body":"hire somebody permanent or whatever."},{"startTime":227.408,"endTime":227.938,"body":"Yeah, it does."},{"startTime":227.948,"endTime":232.602,"body":"So, so I guess we should back way"},{"startTime":227.948,"endTime":232.602,"body":"up, way back, back, back, back up."},{"startTime":232.682,"endTime":236.322,"body":"And we did, we did a podcast, we"},{"startTime":232.682,"endTime":236.322,"body":"did a podcast in episode 60, which"},{"startTime":236.342,"endTime":237.622,"body":"may or may not have been before."},{"startTime":237.772,"endTime":238.932,"body":"Like I learned how to edit."},{"startTime":239.017,"endTime":241.117,"body":"In the dark times before the empire."},{"startTime":241.452,"endTime":242.892,"body":"That's my best Obi Wan Kenobi."},{"startTime":242.892,"endTime":243.572,"body":"It's not very good."},{"startTime":243.722,"endTime":248.612,"body":"Like we did a podcast episode 60 with,"},{"startTime":243.722,"endTime":248.612,"body":"Curtis about John Kotter's book, leading"},{"startTime":248.612,"endTime":252.367,"body":"change, he outlines the process and"},{"startTime":248.612,"endTime":252.367,"body":"it's kind of positioned from people"},{"startTime":252.367,"endTime":256.567,"body":"that are in leadership positions"},{"startTime":252.367,"endTime":256.567,"body":"trying to roll change out in the"},{"startTime":256.567,"endTime":261.137,"body":"organization, which I would, I kind of"},{"startTime":256.567,"endTime":261.137,"body":"would argue if you're a product manager."},{"startTime":261.287,"endTime":263.317,"body":"You kind of are in a leadership position."},{"startTime":263.467,"endTime":267.117,"body":"So, it, it would be good to understand"},{"startTime":263.467,"endTime":267.117,"body":"these, the, the, the framework"},{"startTime":267.127,"endTime":270.447,"body":"in that book and the framework in"},{"startTime":267.127,"endTime":270.447,"body":"that book at a super high level."},{"startTime":270.587,"endTime":272.807,"body":"I'm going to run through the framework"},{"startTime":270.587,"endTime":272.807,"body":"of the book at a super high level"},{"startTime":273.117,"endTime":274.457,"body":"because we're not going to retread."},{"startTime":274.607,"endTime":276.907,"body":"Arguing Agile number 60 in this podcast."},{"startTime":276.987,"endTime":280.907,"body":"His steps are, step one is"},{"startTime":276.987,"endTime":280.907,"body":"establish a sense of urgency,  you"},{"startTime":280.907,"endTime":283.362,"body":"have the most political capital"},{"startTime":280.907,"endTime":283.362,"body":"to do this when you're new."},{"startTime":283.672,"endTime":287.872,"body":"You, you come in as a new CEO or new"},{"startTime":283.672,"endTime":287.872,"body":"head of a department or somebody new,"},{"startTime":287.882,"endTime":290.972,"body":"you have the most capital to do this"},{"startTime":287.882,"endTime":290.972,"body":"because you're seen as an outsider, right?"},{"startTime":291.122,"endTime":292.782,"body":"So establish a sense of urgency."},{"startTime":292.782,"endTime":293.992,"body":"Hey, we've got to do this."},{"startTime":294.252,"endTime":295.392,"body":"We won't be around in three years."},{"startTime":295.392,"endTime":297.272,"body":"If we don't do it, we've"},{"startTime":295.392,"endTime":297.272,"body":"got to kick it off now."},{"startTime":297.512,"endTime":298.852,"body":"Keep reiterating, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":298.862,"endTime":299.562,"body":"The sense of urgency."},{"startTime":299.782,"endTime":302.552,"body":"Step two is create the guiding coalition."},{"startTime":302.782,"endTime":305.122,"body":"That's getting some people that agree"},{"startTime":302.782,"endTime":305.122,"body":"with you, getting some people that are"},{"startTime":305.122,"endTime":308.172,"body":"on the same page, getting some people"},{"startTime":305.122,"endTime":308.172,"body":"in the same situation, getting them"},{"startTime":308.172,"endTime":312.352,"body":"together, getting them to guide the quote"},{"startTime":308.172,"endTime":312.352,"body":"transformation of whatever the changes"},{"startTime":312.352,"endTime":313.412,"body":"doesn't have to be a transformation."},{"startTime":313.712,"endTime":318.162,"body":"Step three is developing a vision and a"},{"startTime":313.712,"endTime":318.162,"body":"strategy agreeing on where we're going."},{"startTime":318.302,"endTime":321.422,"body":"So this is like, I feel like we"},{"startTime":318.302,"endTime":321.422,"body":"already went, like there's eight"},{"startTime":321.422,"endTime":324.502,"body":"steps, spoiler alert for people"},{"startTime":321.422,"endTime":324.502,"body":"who haven't read the book from the"},{"startTime":324.502,"endTime":326.742,"body":"nineties, but, there are eight steps."},{"startTime":326.892,"endTime":330.822,"body":"We're on step three, and this"},{"startTime":326.892,"endTime":330.822,"body":"is a tall order because most"},{"startTime":330.822,"endTime":332.757,"body":"organizations they have no idea."},{"startTime":332.757,"endTime":335.817,"body":"Like, Hey, where are we gonna, where"},{"startTime":332.757,"endTime":335.817,"body":"we wanna be in three to five years?"},{"startTime":335.822,"endTime":339.177,"body":"Well, we wanna have a market"},{"startTime":335.822,"endTime":339.177,"body":"cap of this and we wanna have X"},{"startTime":339.177,"endTime":340.767,"body":"percentage more profit or whatever."},{"startTime":340.772,"endTime":341.727,"body":"Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no."},{"startTime":341.877,"endTime":342.597,"body":"I'm not talking about that."},{"startTime":342.602,"endTime":343.892,"body":"How will we look?"},{"startTime":344.222,"endTime":348.302,"body":"The teams, the people, the, reporting"},{"startTime":344.222,"endTime":348.302,"body":"structures or whatever, what"},{"startTime":348.302,"endTime":350.432,"body":"will we look like in three years?"},{"startTime":350.582,"endTime":351.582,"body":"Oh, why are you asking that?"},{"startTime":351.582,"endTime":352.165,"body":"Get back to work."},{"startTime":352.165,"endTime":353.235,"body":"Go back to the salt mines!"},{"startTime":353.435,"endTime":357.385,"body":"most organizational vision, most change"},{"startTime":353.435,"endTime":357.385,"body":"management, what we're talking about,"},{"startTime":357.395,"endTime":360.295,"body":"breaks down at this step of, well,"},{"startTime":357.395,"endTime":360.295,"body":"I don't know where we're going to"},{"startTime":360.305,"endTime":362.51,"body":"be and I'm busy with the day to day."},{"startTime":362.66,"endTime":366.94,"body":"I don't have time to figure out what"},{"startTime":362.66,"endTime":366.94,"body":"our teams look like, what modes of"},{"startTime":366.95,"endTime":370.625,"body":"interaction between teams and stuff like"},{"startTime":366.95,"endTime":370.625,"body":"that we've definitely touched on this."},{"startTime":370.625,"endTime":372.195,"body":"I don't know if you"},{"startTime":370.625,"endTime":372.195,"body":"have a specific podcast."},{"startTime":372.205,"endTime":376.045,"body":"We've definitely talked a lot, a lot"},{"startTime":372.205,"endTime":376.045,"body":"about vision and strategy on another"},{"startTime":376.045,"endTime":380.135,"body":"podcast for products, not necessarily"},{"startTime":376.045,"endTime":380.135,"body":"for the organizational design."},{"startTime":380.724,"endTime":384.444,"body":"it's been salt and peppered into a"},{"startTime":380.724,"endTime":384.444,"body":"couple different podcasts, but we've"},{"startTime":384.444,"endTime":389.584,"body":"not had one specifically on, what is"},{"startTime":384.444,"endTime":389.584,"body":"your organizational design future?"},{"startTime":389.684,"endTime":389.984,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":389.994,"endTime":390.954,"body":"Like, what is your vision?"},{"startTime":390.954,"endTime":391.794,"body":"How do you craft that?"},{"startTime":391.804,"endTime":392.554,"body":"How do you sell it?"},{"startTime":392.564,"endTime":393.344,"body":"How do you, you know?"},{"startTime":393.579,"endTime":394.839,"body":"Who even maintains that?"},{"startTime":394.899,"endTime":397.629,"body":"We haven't dug in, in that,"},{"startTime":394.899,"endTime":397.629,"body":"from, from that perspective."},{"startTime":397.629,"endTime":403.239,"body":"What I would say though, is we have, honed"},{"startTime":397.629,"endTime":403.239,"body":"in on the importance of, our product,"},{"startTime":403.389,"endTime":407.549,"body":"our product vision and goals and such,"},{"startTime":403.389,"endTime":407.549,"body":"how they need to really funnel up into"},{"startTime":407.589,"endTime":412.529,"body":"that strategy, which should funnel up"},{"startTime":407.589,"endTime":412.529,"body":"into the actual corporate vision and"},{"startTime":412.529,"endTime":418.319,"body":"the importance of everyone understanding"},{"startTime":412.529,"endTime":418.319,"body":"and buying into what that is."},{"startTime":418.469,"endTime":422.199,"body":"And I think this goes back to the"},{"startTime":418.469,"endTime":422.199,"body":"importance of getting that coalition"},{"startTime":422.199,"endTime":427.869,"body":"together, making sure that that is"},{"startTime":422.199,"endTime":427.869,"body":"communicated, is simple, is simple, right?"},{"startTime":427.869,"endTime":428.919,"body":"So that's our North star."},{"startTime":428.919,"endTime":432.519,"body":"That one, the vision shouldn't change"},{"startTime":428.919,"endTime":432.519,"body":"every three to five years, generally"},{"startTime":432.519,"endTime":436.369,"body":"it can, but That's that, that's that"},{"startTime":432.519,"endTime":436.369,"body":"really like, I actually pulled up"},{"startTime":436.389,"endTime":439.879,"body":"apples just cause, there's a lot of"},{"startTime":436.389,"endTime":439.879,"body":"simple ones out there, but apples is"},{"startTime":440.079,"endTime":443.729,"body":"to bring the best user experience to"},{"startTime":440.079,"endTime":443.729,"body":"customers through innovative hardware,"},{"startTime":443.729,"endTime":445.539,"body":"software, and services period."},{"startTime":445.689,"endTime":451.819,"body":"It should be simple enough that everyone"},{"startTime":445.689,"endTime":451.819,"body":"at Apple in this case, understands that"},{"startTime":451.879,"endTime":456.119,"body":"whatever it is they're doing from whatever"},{"startTime":451.879,"endTime":456.119,"body":"level in the company that they're doing,"},{"startTime":456.119,"endTime":461.119,"body":"that they are doing something that"},{"startTime":456.119,"endTime":461.119,"body":"will apply ultimately to that vision."},{"startTime":461.129,"endTime":462.719,"body":"Now, certainly there's strategy."},{"startTime":462.749,"endTime":464.619,"body":"There's, there's layers"},{"startTime":462.749,"endTime":464.619,"body":"to that to get into that."},{"startTime":464.649,"endTime":467.439,"body":"If you are doing something, you"},{"startTime":464.649,"endTime":467.439,"body":"should be able to ask yourself."},{"startTime":467.589,"endTime":471.979,"body":"You know, can I check the box that I"},{"startTime":467.589,"endTime":471.979,"body":"am doing something that is going to"},{"startTime":472.129,"endTime":476.289,"body":"align to our corporate vision, which"},{"startTime":472.129,"endTime":476.289,"body":"requires number one, that I know what"},{"startTime":476.289,"endTime":478.229,"body":"the hell the corporate vision is."},{"startTime":478.769,"endTime":479.059,"body":"right."},{"startTime":479.169,"endTime":483.339,"body":"Hurdle number one is it's got to be,"},{"startTime":479.169,"endTime":483.339,"body":"first of all, you have to have it."},{"startTime":483.489,"endTime":483.929,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":484.199,"endTime":485.559,"body":"Well, that's hurdle number one."},{"startTime":485.709,"endTime":489.909,"body":"Second of all, like that vision"},{"startTime":485.709,"endTime":489.909,"body":"has to be expressed in terms of,"},{"startTime":490.059,"endTime":492.409,"body":"goals or strategies or something."},{"startTime":492.599,"endTime":497.619,"body":"How are we going to deliver on this"},{"startTime":492.599,"endTime":497.619,"body":"vision and that that's leadership's job."},{"startTime":497.629,"endTime":502.889,"body":"That's not anybody else I mean you could"},{"startTime":497.629,"endTime":502.889,"body":"argue like the senior product leadership"},{"startTime":503.039,"endTime":506.375,"body":"should definitely be helping with that"},{"startTime":503.039,"endTime":506.375,"body":"you definitely could argue that you would"},{"startTime":506.375,"endTime":510.47,"body":"not be out of sorts if I were to push"},{"startTime":506.375,"endTime":510.47,"body":"back on that point, I would say depending"},{"startTime":510.47,"endTime":513.56,"body":"on the size of the org, I'm with you"},{"startTime":510.47,"endTime":513.56,"body":"depending on the size of your, if you're"},{"startTime":513.56,"endTime":519.46,"body":"talking to an org in the thousands, now"},{"startTime":513.56,"endTime":519.46,"body":"we're talking about like entire segments"},{"startTime":519.46,"endTime":523.92,"body":"of the org being divisions that kind of"},{"startTime":519.46,"endTime":523.92,"body":"have a different vision of their own, that"},{"startTime":523.92,"endTime":526.01,"body":"kind of like you can help tie back up."},{"startTime":526.315,"endTime":530.285,"body":"To the company vision, but the company"},{"startTime":526.315,"endTime":530.285,"body":"vision is so broad, So the company vision"},{"startTime":530.285,"endTime":532.675,"body":"should be broad, but that North star."},{"startTime":532.675,"endTime":536.915,"body":"So I would, I would argue that, that"},{"startTime":532.675,"endTime":536.915,"body":"that's not that if you have different"},{"startTime":536.915,"endTime":541.985,"body":"organizations or, or different kind of"},{"startTime":536.915,"endTime":541.985,"body":"siloed departments or, lines of business,"},{"startTime":541.985,"endTime":546.865,"body":"whatever you want to call it, that"},{"startTime":541.985,"endTime":546.865,"body":"those would have a different goals and"},{"startTime":546.865,"endTime":548.935,"body":"strategies, or maybe a different vision."},{"startTime":549.085,"endTime":552.825,"body":"But would always, or excuse me,"},{"startTime":549.085,"endTime":552.825,"body":"a different mission, but would"},{"startTime":552.885,"endTime":558.045,"body":"always align back to the company,"},{"startTime":552.885,"endTime":558.045,"body":"vision that that shouldn't change"},{"startTime":558.045,"endTime":559.595,"body":"across the board regardless."},{"startTime":559.625,"endTime":562.635,"body":"And that should be, we should"},{"startTime":559.625,"endTime":562.635,"body":"always be able to align to that."},{"startTime":562.965,"endTime":563.915,"body":"I think it's the other way around."},{"startTime":564.235,"endTime":568.575,"body":"I think, I think you all, I think the,"},{"startTime":564.235,"endTime":568.575,"body":"the mission comes above the vision, so"},{"startTime":568.605,"endTime":570.135,"body":"you might all tie back to the mission."},{"startTime":570.285,"endTime":573.295,"body":"But you might have, again, like we're"},{"startTime":570.285,"endTime":573.295,"body":"talking about theoretical, so I, I"},{"startTime":573.295,"endTime":576.245,"body":"kind of want to abandon ship on this"},{"startTime":573.295,"endTime":576.245,"body":"one because I, I want to get out of"},{"startTime":576.255,"endTime":579.105,"body":"theoreticals because if you go back"},{"startTime":576.255,"endTime":579.105,"body":"to John Kotter's leading change, where"},{"startTime":579.105,"endTime":582.855,"body":"he, like we were at, and you're right,"},{"startTime":579.105,"endTime":582.855,"body":"I, I, so I, I, I got that wrong."},{"startTime":582.855,"endTime":584.245,"body":"I, so I'll agree with you on that one."},{"startTime":584.395,"endTime":584.575,"body":"Got it."},{"startTime":584.95,"endTime":589.21,"body":"But I mean, theoretically, even if you're"},{"startTime":584.95,"endTime":589.21,"body":"a large company, you, if you really"},{"startTime":589.21,"endTime":591.06,"body":"want to be a focused large company."},{"startTime":591.21,"endTime":594.34,"body":"Tying everything back to one vision, no"},{"startTime":591.21,"endTime":594.34,"body":"matter how many teams or how many segments"},{"startTime":594.34,"endTime":597.32,"body":"or whatever business things or whatever"},{"startTime":594.34,"endTime":597.32,"body":"you have, it really shouldn't matter if"},{"startTime":597.32,"endTime":600.69,"body":"you tie back to one vision and you really"},{"startTime":597.32,"endTime":600.69,"body":"have focus with your whole company and"},{"startTime":600.69,"endTime":604.44,"body":"then your different divisions or whatever"},{"startTime":600.69,"endTime":604.44,"body":"the organization can say, we're executing"},{"startTime":604.45,"endTime":607.5,"body":"the vision by launching these strategies."},{"startTime":607.5,"endTime":611.24,"body":"I think about the strategies and the"},{"startTime":607.5,"endTime":611.24,"body":"goals being like a subdivision level"},{"startTime":611.24,"endTime":612.59,"body":"or a sub business level or whatever."},{"startTime":612.59,"endTime":615.25,"body":"But again, I want to get over"},{"startTime":612.59,"endTime":615.25,"body":"this because I want to get through"},{"startTime":615.25,"endTime":616.45,"body":"the rest of the eight steps."},{"startTime":616.525,"endTime":621.435,"body":"I bring it up to say most companies,"},{"startTime":616.525,"endTime":621.435,"body":"they fail at even having visions and"},{"startTime":621.435,"endTime":625.715,"body":"strategies that are publicized, that"},{"startTime":621.435,"endTime":625.715,"body":"people know, that people like, I had a,"},{"startTime":625.725,"endTime":629.415,"body":"I had a CEO one time, who , I remember"},{"startTime":625.725,"endTime":629.415,"body":"he came to a company meeting, he's"},{"startTime":629.425,"endTime":631.595,"body":"like, who can say what our vision is?"},{"startTime":631.745,"endTime":632.095,"body":"And."},{"startTime":632.245,"endTime":634.795,"body":"If someone could remember it"},{"startTime":632.245,"endTime":634.795,"body":"off the top of their head, he"},{"startTime":634.795,"endTime":637.275,"body":"would he throw 100 He literally"},{"startTime":634.795,"endTime":637.275,"body":"would give him a hundred dollars."},{"startTime":637.425,"endTime":640.66,"body":"He'd go in his pocket and he'd break"},{"startTime":637.425,"endTime":640.66,"body":"out a hundred dollars and be like boom"},{"startTime":640.67,"endTime":644.09,"body":"There you go is a hundred dollars I"},{"startTime":640.67,"endTime":644.09,"body":"need everyone to be on the same page."},{"startTime":644.35,"endTime":647.19,"body":"Everyone needs to know what our vision is"},{"startTime":644.35,"endTime":647.19,"body":"because that's what should be dictating"},{"startTime":647.265,"endTime":650.785,"body":"prioritization and whether we accept"},{"startTime":647.265,"endTime":650.785,"body":"jobs and whether we, how we proceed."},{"startTime":650.995,"endTime":653.075,"body":"You should be thinking about"},{"startTime":650.995,"endTime":653.075,"body":"how it ties back in the vision."},{"startTime":653.075,"endTime":654.675,"body":"So he wanted everyone to"},{"startTime":653.075,"endTime":654.675,"body":"know what the vision is."},{"startTime":654.77,"endTime":657.91,"body":"again, now that I'm many, many,"},{"startTime":654.77,"endTime":657.91,"body":"many years later in my career."},{"startTime":658.08,"endTime":661.1,"body":"I understand that, you can't have a"},{"startTime":658.08,"endTime":661.1,"body":"vision that's, three paragraphs long."},{"startTime":661.185,"endTime":663.635,"body":"You need a vision that"},{"startTime":661.185,"endTime":663.635,"body":"you can remember quickly."},{"startTime":663.785,"endTime":664.335,"body":"So, you know."},{"startTime":664.375,"endTime":668.785,"body":"That's, that's, that's inspiring that,"},{"startTime":664.375,"endTime":668.785,"body":"that I want to be a part of, right?"},{"startTime":668.835,"endTime":672.045,"body":"That, that's something that I can remember"},{"startTime":668.835,"endTime":672.045,"body":"and I want to be a part of, right?"},{"startTime":672.195,"endTime":675.025,"body":"And I know, so we want to get over"},{"startTime":672.195,"endTime":675.025,"body":"this, but I want to say one more thing."},{"startTime":675.025,"endTime":676.055,"body":"So, just, so."},{"startTime":676.365,"endTime":677.165,"body":"We do whatever we want, yeah."},{"startTime":677.455,"endTime":680.365,"body":"So, but I want to, so I give an"},{"startTime":677.455,"endTime":680.365,"body":"example and I've told, I think I've"},{"startTime":680.365,"endTime":684.655,"body":"told this story actually on this"},{"startTime":680.365,"endTime":684.655,"body":"podcast previously, but so my oldest"},{"startTime":684.655,"endTime":687.625,"body":"daughter went to elementary school,"},{"startTime":684.655,"endTime":687.625,"body":"and the elementary school is a"},{"startTime":687.625,"endTime":691.655,"body":"charter school and they use the fish"},{"startTime":687.625,"endTime":691.655,"body":"philosophy from the Pikes fish market."},{"startTime":691.73,"endTime":693.86,"body":"She could tell you to this day what it is."},{"startTime":694.01,"endTime":699.4,"body":"But the, fish vision and strategy,"},{"startTime":694.01,"endTime":699.4,"body":"right, they had things posted"},{"startTime":699.47,"endTime":701.24,"body":"everywhere throughout the school, right?"},{"startTime":701.26,"endTime":705.61,"body":"Number one, it was included"},{"startTime":701.26,"endTime":705.61,"body":"in orientation, but that's"},{"startTime":705.61,"endTime":707.08,"body":"not what made it stick."},{"startTime":707.26,"endTime":710.32,"body":"What made it stick was in the class."},{"startTime":710.53,"endTime":712.83,"body":"All of the teachers, their lesson plans."},{"startTime":712.945,"endTime":718.34,"body":"would roll up to that, those, that, those"},{"startTime":712.945,"endTime":718.34,"body":"values of that fish philosophy, if a kid"},{"startTime":718.59,"endTime":724.24,"body":"needed to be, redirected, they would ask,"},{"startTime":718.59,"endTime":724.24,"body":"Hey, are you living the value of this?"},{"startTime":724.25,"endTime":726.46,"body":"Whatever it was in the fish philosophy."},{"startTime":726.46,"endTime":727.56,"body":"Are you, are you meeting this?"},{"startTime":727.56,"endTime":729.33,"body":"And if not, how are you not meeting it?"},{"startTime":729.48,"endTime":731.34,"body":"so there was education for the."},{"startTime":731.405,"endTime":736.515,"body":"Staff, there was a culture that was"},{"startTime":731.405,"endTime":736.515,"body":"created with the leadership, with the"},{"startTime":736.525,"endTime":738.725,"body":"staff and that filtered down to the kids."},{"startTime":738.725,"endTime":744.125,"body":"And I have a 24 year old to this day"},{"startTime":738.725,"endTime":744.125,"body":"that knows those things by heart."},{"startTime":744.275,"endTime":748.385,"body":"But again, again, number"},{"startTime":744.275,"endTime":748.385,"body":"one, it's gotta be there."},{"startTime":748.385,"endTime":748.386,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":748.391,"endTime":749.165,"body":"It's gotta be there."},{"startTime":749.165,"endTime":751.925,"body":"It's gotta be publicized, it's"},{"startTime":749.165,"endTime":751.925,"body":"gotta be available and it's gotta"},{"startTime":751.925,"endTime":756.006,"body":"be good, meaningful, dare I say,"},{"startTime":751.925,"endTime":756.006,"body":"it has to connect with people."},{"startTime":756.066,"endTime":756.156,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":756.156,"endTime":759.036,"body":"'cause again, if, if it's two"},{"startTime":756.156,"endTime":759.036,"body":"paragraphs long, like no one's"},{"startTime":759.036,"endTime":759.667,"body":"gonna remember it, right."},{"startTime":759.742,"endTime":765.282,"body":"Where we're at is, companies fail,"},{"startTime":759.742,"endTime":765.282,"body":"just developing a vision, a good"},{"startTime":765.282,"endTime":769.072,"body":"vision, and then publicizing it and"},{"startTime":765.282,"endTime":769.072,"body":"then pulling strategies from that."},{"startTime":769.272,"endTime":772.912,"body":"The next step to that is once you"},{"startTime":769.272,"endTime":772.912,"body":"have a vision, you spread it around."},{"startTime":772.922,"endTime":777.032,"body":"You, you, you, the 100 bill thing, I"},{"startTime":772.922,"endTime":777.032,"body":"don't know, I don't know why we're making"},{"startTime":777.032,"endTime":778.322,"body":"it rain right now in the organization."},{"startTime":778.322,"endTime":783.072,"body":"But the, the, the idea is you want to"},{"startTime":778.322,"endTime":783.072,"body":"incentivize people to learn your vision."},{"startTime":783.072,"endTime":786.832,"body":"You want to, to, to, to go to"},{"startTime":783.072,"endTime":786.832,"body":"all your mid managers and make"},{"startTime":786.832,"endTime":787.852,"body":"sure their people know it."},{"startTime":787.852,"endTime":790.502,"body":"You mean you, you want to"},{"startTime":787.852,"endTime":790.502,"body":"incentivize it so that people"},{"startTime":790.502,"endTime":791.952,"body":"know you want to communicate."},{"startTime":792.102,"endTime":794.912,"body":"The change vision,"},{"startTime":792.102,"endTime":794.912,"body":"that's step number four."},{"startTime":795.062,"endTime":799.932,"body":"Step number five is to empower"},{"startTime":795.062,"endTime":799.932,"body":"employees for broad based action."},{"startTime":800.082,"endTime":803.872,"body":"And a lot of Agile transformation people"},{"startTime":800.082,"endTime":803.872,"body":"know this as removing obstacles, which"},{"startTime":803.872,"endTime":806.802,"body":"is, if, or, or breaking down silos."},{"startTime":806.802,"endTime":808.462,"body":"That's the other thing"},{"startTime":806.802,"endTime":808.462,"body":"that people know this as."},{"startTime":808.632,"endTime":811.292,"body":"if you're trying to empower"},{"startTime":808.632,"endTime":811.292,"body":"employees and you're trying to say,"},{"startTime":811.292,"endTime":814.632,"body":"Hey, Stormy in, in the course of"},{"startTime":811.292,"endTime":814.632,"body":"your normal work, you figure out."},{"startTime":814.782,"endTime":816.642,"body":"What you could be doing"},{"startTime":814.782,"endTime":816.642,"body":"to advance our vision."},{"startTime":816.672,"endTime":816.762,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":816.912,"endTime":820.062,"body":", I need to break down barriers so"},{"startTime":816.912,"endTime":820.062,"body":"that, so that you feel empowered to"},{"startTime":820.212,"endTime":821.812,"body":"start doing that in your daily work."},{"startTime":821.812,"endTime":824.657,"body":"But Brian, I need to ask my,"},{"startTime":821.812,"endTime":824.657,"body":"my leader, if that's okay."},{"startTime":824.927,"endTime":825.227,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":825.347,"endTime":826.117,"body":"That I get Brian."},{"startTime":826.122,"endTime":829.217,"body":"Brian is, I, I need to, I need"},{"startTime":826.122,"endTime":829.217,"body":"to make sure that that's okay."},{"startTime":829.247,"endTime":830.837,"body":"Yeah, that's exactly step five."},{"startTime":830.927,"endTime":831.317,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":831.377,"endTime":835.067,"body":"We need to get, we need to get past that"},{"startTime":831.377,"endTime":835.067,"body":"because again, like innovation just."},{"startTime":835.392,"endTime":840.452,"body":"Does not happen when you're worried about"},{"startTime":835.392,"endTime":840.452,"body":"like, well, if I propose something, then"},{"startTime":840.452,"endTime":843.812,"body":"my manager might think I'm trying to"},{"startTime":840.452,"endTime":843.812,"body":"go over his head and it might, trying"},{"startTime":843.812,"endTime":847.162,"body":"to hold me back or whatever, like all"},{"startTime":843.812,"endTime":847.162,"body":"that, all that needs to be cleared away."},{"startTime":847.192,"endTime":848.222,"body":"It all needs to be cleared away."},{"startTime":848.342,"endTime":850.412,"body":"Like lack of psychological safety."},{"startTime":850.442,"endTime":851.792,"body":"I mean, you think about step five."},{"startTime":852.007,"endTime":853.827,"body":"It's like, Oh, it's just a step five."},{"startTime":853.827,"endTime":854.997,"body":"It's just a, it's a hurdle."},{"startTime":854.997,"endTime":859.407,"body":"It's a bump on the road, but step"},{"startTime":854.997,"endTime":859.407,"body":"five is like, it's huge to overcome."},{"startTime":859.557,"endTime":863.487,"body":"This is culture, like literally"},{"startTime":859.557,"endTime":863.487,"body":"ingraining it into your culture."},{"startTime":863.487,"endTime":866.987,"body":"And it really is a huge"},{"startTime":863.487,"endTime":866.987,"body":"opportunity to get creative too."},{"startTime":867.197,"endTime":869.387,"body":"So how do we ingrain"},{"startTime":867.197,"endTime":869.387,"body":"this into our culture?"},{"startTime":869.617,"endTime":872.787,"body":"Make it fun, literally make"},{"startTime":869.617,"endTime":872.787,"body":"it fun, make it memorable."},{"startTime":872.797,"endTime":873.497,"body":"A hundred dollars."},{"startTime":873.507,"endTime":877.157,"body":"So throwing a hundred dollar bill"},{"startTime":873.507,"endTime":877.157,"body":"out in a meeting to say, well, do"},{"startTime":877.157,"endTime":880.642,"body":"you know The vision of our company,"},{"startTime":877.157,"endTime":880.642,"body":"do you know what that did that"},{"startTime":880.692,"endTime":882.722,"body":"made that, that was memorable."},{"startTime":882.752,"endTime":886.062,"body":"People went back that day and"},{"startTime":882.752,"endTime":886.062,"body":"were like, what is our vision?"},{"startTime":886.302,"endTime":887.722,"body":"I bet I'm going to know that next time."},{"startTime":887.742,"endTime":891.002,"body":"That person who got the a hundred"},{"startTime":887.742,"endTime":891.002,"body":"dollars, I guarantee you, they will always"},{"startTime":891.002,"endTime":893.032,"body":"remember what that vision was for sure."},{"startTime":893.032,"endTime":895.792,"body":"But it's getting, it's not about him"},{"startTime":893.032,"endTime":895.792,"body":"about making it rain and throwing out a"},{"startTime":895.792,"endTime":900.802,"body":"hundred dollars bills, but it is about,"},{"startTime":895.792,"endTime":900.802,"body":"well, but it is about, being creative."},{"startTime":901.107,"endTime":905.907,"body":"And making it fun and, and really"},{"startTime":901.107,"endTime":905.907,"body":"getting people to buy in and not"},{"startTime":905.907,"endTime":909.307,"body":"just recite it, but believe it,"},{"startTime":905.907,"endTime":909.307,"body":"believe in it, be a part of it."},{"startTime":909.457,"endTime":911.387,"body":"Yeah, I mean, that's step five."},{"startTime":911.502,"endTime":915.252,"body":"You can't be empowered when you"},{"startTime":911.502,"endTime":915.252,"body":"have, component teams separate."},{"startTime":915.592,"endTime":917.742,"body":"Oh, all my development is done"},{"startTime":915.592,"endTime":917.742,"body":"on this one team and all my"},{"startTime":917.742,"endTime":918.932,"body":"QA is done on this one team."},{"startTime":918.942,"endTime":921.582,"body":"And then I got to send it over the"},{"startTime":918.942,"endTime":921.582,"body":"wall to this other team to deploy."},{"startTime":921.772,"endTime":922.982,"body":"And then I got to send"},{"startTime":921.772,"endTime":922.982,"body":"it over to this other."},{"startTime":923.132,"endTime":926.507,"body":"You can't like you're not empowered"},{"startTime":923.132,"endTime":926.507,"body":"at that point, If you ever been behind"},{"startTime":926.507,"endTime":931.152,"body":"a boss who refuses any suggestion To"},{"startTime":926.507,"endTime":931.152,"body":"change and you've been frustrated."},{"startTime":931.152,"endTime":933.702,"body":"Like, you know what I'm talking"},{"startTime":931.152,"endTime":933.702,"body":"about now, why this is difficult."},{"startTime":933.962,"endTime":935.702,"body":"Go back and read John"},{"startTime":933.962,"endTime":935.702,"body":"Cotter's leading change."},{"startTime":935.912,"endTime":937.192,"body":"He's talking from the top down."},{"startTime":937.202,"endTime":939.632,"body":"He's talking sponsoring"},{"startTime":937.202,"endTime":939.632,"body":"change from the top down."},{"startTime":939.702,"endTime":941.402,"body":"He's not really talking"},{"startTime":939.702,"endTime":941.402,"body":"from the bottom up."},{"startTime":941.512,"endTime":943.372,"body":"That's, I, I feel a different book."},{"startTime":943.522,"endTime":946.482,"body":"I don't, I haven't seen that ever work,"},{"startTime":943.522,"endTime":946.482,"body":"but maybe I would love to hear from"},{"startTime":946.492,"endTime":950.422,"body":"somebody that has, I, I, maybe that"},{"startTime":946.492,"endTime":950.422,"body":"could be a completely separate podcast."},{"startTime":950.492,"endTime":954.762,"body":"Step six is generating a"},{"startTime":950.492,"endTime":954.762,"body":"list of short term wins."},{"startTime":954.992,"endTime":958.502,"body":"Right, so if you do have a, if, if, if you"},{"startTime":954.992,"endTime":958.502,"body":"do have like a, well, we're going to step"},{"startTime":958.502,"endTime":964.142,"body":"into agility, and we're not sure that we"},{"startTime":958.502,"endTime":964.142,"body":"want to, go all in and transform our whole"},{"startTime":964.152,"endTime":967.902,"body":"organization, so we're going to pick a, a,"},{"startTime":964.152,"endTime":967.902,"body":"a group of people, or a cross functional"},{"startTime":967.902,"endTime":969.332,"body":"team, we're going to do a pilot program."},{"startTime":969.482,"endTime":971.922,"body":"Okay that team will have some missteps."},{"startTime":972.082,"endTime":976.432,"body":"Every team has missteps depending on the"},{"startTime":972.082,"endTime":976.432,"body":"politics at play in your organization."},{"startTime":976.582,"endTime":979.372,"body":"What you can do to get around"},{"startTime":976.582,"endTime":979.372,"body":"this is you can broadcast the wins"},{"startTime":979.522,"endTime":981.322,"body":"and you can treat the failures."},{"startTime":981.472,"endTime":984.812,"body":"As learnings, assuming that for"},{"startTime":981.472,"endTime":984.812,"body":"each failure, you're implementing"},{"startTime":984.822,"endTime":987.802,"body":"something that makes sure you"},{"startTime":984.822,"endTime":987.802,"body":"won't have that failure again."},{"startTime":987.952,"endTime":991.202,"body":"So, assuming you're, you're really"},{"startTime":987.952,"endTime":991.202,"body":"going into this with good faith, and,"},{"startTime":991.202,"endTime":994.562,"body":"and full effort, you know what I mean,"},{"startTime":991.202,"endTime":994.562,"body":"money, effort, everything behind this,"},{"startTime":994.712,"endTime":998.222,"body":"You're generating short term wins"},{"startTime":994.712,"endTime":998.222,"body":"with your pilot programs and you're"},{"startTime":998.232,"endTime":1000.042,"body":"broadcasting those short term wins."},{"startTime":1000.122,"endTime":1001.072,"body":"That's step six."},{"startTime":1001.222,"endTime":1005.242,"body":"I love that you're saying broadcasting,"},{"startTime":1001.222,"endTime":1005.242,"body":"you know quick wins But you mentioned"},{"startTime":1005.252,"endTime":1008.802,"body":"failure, you know being able so being"},{"startTime":1005.252,"endTime":1008.802,"body":"allowed to fail and finding the value"},{"startTime":1008.802,"endTime":1013.092,"body":"in that as that being an actual win"},{"startTime":1008.802,"endTime":1013.092,"body":"a learning opportunity So I mentioned"},{"startTime":1013.092,"endTime":1016.702,"body":"this recently to one of my, one of"},{"startTime":1013.092,"endTime":1016.702,"body":"my leaders and saying one of the best"},{"startTime":1016.702,"endTime":1020.682,"body":"ways in which, so the one of the best"},{"startTime":1016.702,"endTime":1020.682,"body":"ways that we can learn and we can"},{"startTime":1020.722,"endTime":1025.352,"body":"ultimately win is to fail because"},{"startTime":1020.722,"endTime":1025.352,"body":"you don't know what you don't know."},{"startTime":1025.427,"endTime":1030.552,"body":"And if we are empowered to experiment,"},{"startTime":1025.427,"endTime":1030.552,"body":"in the life cycle of that, we"},{"startTime":1030.552,"endTime":1032.012,"body":"will experience failure, right?"},{"startTime":1032.012,"endTime":1032.262,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1032.412,"endTime":1034.932,"body":"From that we learn, which is a win, right?"},{"startTime":1034.932,"endTime":1036.262,"body":"So we pull the positive out of that."},{"startTime":1036.412,"endTime":1041.712,"body":"But what I want to say about that"},{"startTime":1036.412,"endTime":1041.712,"body":"is, for our, our leaders to be"},{"startTime":1041.722,"endTime":1044.542,"body":"transparent about their failures."},{"startTime":1044.692,"endTime":1045.992,"body":"Where did they fail?"},{"startTime":1046.102,"endTime":1047.612,"body":"What did they learn?"},{"startTime":1047.902,"endTime":1051.842,"body":"So the more transparent that"},{"startTime":1047.902,"endTime":1051.842,"body":"they can be about that, that"},{"startTime":1051.852,"endTime":1054.422,"body":"makes it okay for that team."},{"startTime":1054.497,"endTime":1060.107,"body":"People become more empowered and more"},{"startTime":1054.497,"endTime":1060.107,"body":"comfortable and more safe if their"},{"startTime":1060.107,"endTime":1065.307,"body":"leaders are humanized, and it also makes"},{"startTime":1060.107,"endTime":1065.307,"body":"it okay for them to fail and to say."},{"startTime":1065.457,"endTime":1067.867,"body":"Yeah, and to admit to failure"},{"startTime":1065.457,"endTime":1067.867,"body":"and what they've learned from it."},{"startTime":1067.867,"endTime":1070.947,"body":"Let me ask you a question,"},{"startTime":1067.867,"endTime":1070.947,"body":"like a segue on this podcast."},{"startTime":1071.097,"endTime":1074.477,"body":"But it's a, it's a, it's a segue that"},{"startTime":1071.097,"endTime":1074.477,"body":"we need to take right now, which is,"},{"startTime":1074.602,"endTime":1078.622,"body":"where or when do leaders fail?"},{"startTime":1078.772,"endTime":1081.232,"body":"Where does a typical business leader fail?"},{"startTime":1081.402,"endTime":1084.752,"body":"Like you were saying like, Oh, I want"},{"startTime":1081.402,"endTime":1084.752,"body":"my leaders to represent where they"},{"startTime":1084.752,"endTime":1086.152,"body":"fail, so we can learn from that too."},{"startTime":1086.312,"endTime":1090.192,"body":"Or to show me, the employee, that"},{"startTime":1086.312,"endTime":1090.192,"body":"they are learning from their failures."},{"startTime":1090.332,"endTime":1093.202,"body":"What would you categorize as"},{"startTime":1090.332,"endTime":1093.202,"body":"like a leadership failure?"},{"startTime":1093.352,"endTime":1097.867,"body":"Well, it could be, a direction that was"},{"startTime":1093.352,"endTime":1097.867,"body":"chosen based on a particular project."},{"startTime":1098.187,"endTime":1100.057,"body":"So there's a lot of"},{"startTime":1098.187,"endTime":1100.057,"body":"assumptions that are made."},{"startTime":1100.207,"endTime":1105.037,"body":"It could be, it could be guidance"},{"startTime":1100.207,"endTime":1105.037,"body":"that was given for a team to go in"},{"startTime":1105.037,"endTime":1108.967,"body":"this direction and that was really"},{"startTime":1105.037,"endTime":1108.967,"body":"ended up being the wrong way to go."},{"startTime":1109.117,"endTime":1110.737,"body":"You're you're very close."},{"startTime":1110.747,"endTime":1115.582,"body":"So exactly what I was thinking which"},{"startTime":1110.747,"endTime":1115.582,"body":"is engaging us in a business strategy"},{"startTime":1115.892,"endTime":1119.672,"body":"That is based on an assumption and"},{"startTime":1115.892,"endTime":1119.672,"body":"I will tell you like as a product"},{"startTime":1119.672,"endTime":1124.492,"body":"manager I have no problem going all in"},{"startTime":1119.672,"endTime":1124.492,"body":"diving headfirst into brackish water."},{"startTime":1124.492,"endTime":1127.752,"body":"I can't see the bottom so I don't"},{"startTime":1124.492,"endTime":1127.752,"body":"know if the pool is five foot deep"},{"startTime":1127.872,"endTime":1130.912,"body":"or if the pool is Three inches deep"},{"startTime":1127.872,"endTime":1130.912,"body":"because I can't see the bottom."},{"startTime":1131.092,"endTime":1133.177,"body":"I have no problem diving"},{"startTime":1131.092,"endTime":1133.177,"body":"headfirst in Okay."},{"startTime":1133.227,"endTime":1135.367,"body":"Cause we're going, we're"},{"startTime":1133.227,"endTime":1135.367,"body":"going to dive in together."},{"startTime":1135.517,"endTime":1140.007,"body":"I'm okay with the idea of, we have"},{"startTime":1135.517,"endTime":1140.007,"body":"not explored this market segment."},{"startTime":1140.207,"endTime":1141.477,"body":"We've not explored this business."},{"startTime":1141.477,"endTime":1142.757,"body":"We've not explored this customer."},{"startTime":1142.757,"endTime":1143.647,"body":"We've not explored something."},{"startTime":1143.647,"endTime":1143.937,"body":"So."},{"startTime":1144.207,"endTime":1148.162,"body":"We're going to take a chance and"},{"startTime":1144.207,"endTime":1148.162,"body":"try something small, so it shouldn't"},{"startTime":1148.172,"endTime":1149.372,"body":"really be dive in headfirst."},{"startTime":1149.372,"endTime":1152.632,"body":"It should be like dive in with"},{"startTime":1149.372,"endTime":1152.632,"body":"a toe or feel around with a toe."},{"startTime":1152.707,"endTime":1155.137,"body":"There's a million like"},{"startTime":1152.707,"endTime":1155.137,"body":"books and everything that."},{"startTime":1155.137,"endTime":1158.797,"body":"You can read to double back of what"},{"startTime":1155.137,"endTime":1158.797,"body":"I just said on the org design side,"},{"startTime":1158.887,"endTime":1163.077,"body":"though, Oh, stormy, I'm gonna like,"},{"startTime":1158.887,"endTime":1163.077,"body":"we'll have a whole QA team over here."},{"startTime":1163.257,"endTime":1166.027,"body":"We'll have three development teams"},{"startTime":1163.257,"endTime":1166.027,"body":"over here, and they'll all feed"},{"startTime":1166.027,"endTime":1167.277,"body":"the work to that one QA team."},{"startTime":1167.317,"endTime":1170.931,"body":"And then when, when they're done, we'll"},{"startTime":1167.317,"endTime":1170.931,"body":"Then we'll sit you with the business"},{"startTime":1170.951,"endTime":1174.131,"body":"because you're really more business"},{"startTime":1170.951,"endTime":1174.131,"body":"focused than you are technical focused."},{"startTime":1174.361,"endTime":1177.801,"body":"So I don't really want you talking"},{"startTime":1174.361,"endTime":1177.801,"body":"with the developers and like that that"},{"startTime":1177.801,"endTime":1181.791,"body":"kind of like bad decision of like oh"},{"startTime":1177.801,"endTime":1181.791,"body":"We're gonna build a bunch of walls and"},{"startTime":1181.791,"endTime":1185.391,"body":"I don't want you going between all the"},{"startTime":1181.791,"endTime":1185.391,"body":"walls because you know I'm trying to"},{"startTime":1185.391,"endTime":1188.661,"body":"protect your time and that's what I"},{"startTime":1185.391,"endTime":1188.661,"body":"think is important based off of nothing."},{"startTime":1188.811,"endTime":1193.381,"body":"Cause I've never sat with development"},{"startTime":1188.811,"endTime":1193.381,"body":"teams and the bad assumptions on org"},{"startTime":1193.381,"endTime":1195.871,"body":"design, that's where, I've just seen."},{"startTime":1195.956,"endTime":1196.796,"body":"Not the same."},{"startTime":1196.946,"endTime":1199.106,"body":"Learnings come from Absolutely."},{"startTime":1199.106,"endTime":1199.226,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1199.496,"endTime":1202.676,"body":"And because they're siloed, so"},{"startTime":1199.496,"endTime":1202.676,"body":"any learning is going to be within"},{"startTime":1202.676,"endTime":1205.736,"body":"that one little, that one little"},{"startTime":1202.676,"endTime":1205.736,"body":"like walled off section, right."},{"startTime":1205.736,"endTime":1207.206,"body":"If there is a learning shared."},{"startTime":1207.206,"endTime":1207.656,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1207.806,"endTime":1209.276,"body":"So yeah, I mean absolutely."},{"startTime":1209.281,"endTime":1213.656,"body":"We were talking earlier about, but,"},{"startTime":1209.281,"endTime":1213.656,"body":"creating teams or pods or really kind"},{"startTime":1213.656,"endTime":1219.581,"body":"of trying to break down those walls so"},{"startTime":1213.656,"endTime":1219.581,"body":"that, we have truly this cross functional,"},{"startTime":1219.731,"endTime":1224.651,"body":"organization where we are able to"},{"startTime":1219.731,"endTime":1224.651,"body":"learn, trust and, and grow together."},{"startTime":1224.971,"endTime":1225.221,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1225.221,"endTime":1229.271,"body":"The, the issue that I've experienced,"},{"startTime":1225.221,"endTime":1229.271,"body":"and especially in the, that segment of"},{"startTime":1229.321,"endTime":1232.051,"body":"my career, when I thought I wanted to"},{"startTime":1229.321,"endTime":1232.051,"body":"be an agile coach, I don't know why I"},{"startTime":1232.051,"endTime":1236.16,"body":"thought that, was, usually what happens"},{"startTime":1232.051,"endTime":1236.16,"body":"is that the person who made the call."},{"startTime":1236.31,"endTime":1238.23,"body":"To say our team should"},{"startTime":1236.31,"endTime":1238.23,"body":"be split up like this."},{"startTime":1238.38,"endTime":1239.77,"body":"I want to try this."},{"startTime":1239.92,"endTime":1241.0,"body":"Let's try it."},{"startTime":1241.15,"endTime":1244.08,"body":"Let's try having all the"},{"startTime":1241.15,"endTime":1244.08,"body":"testers over there and all the"},{"startTime":1244.09,"endTime":1246.55,"body":"developers over there and all the"},{"startTime":1244.09,"endTime":1246.55,"body":"requirements people over there."},{"startTime":1246.55,"endTime":1250.095,"body":"Let's just try it, any, Agile coach"},{"startTime":1246.55,"endTime":1250.095,"body":"or whatever in the room will be like,"},{"startTime":1250.095,"endTime":1252.055,"body":"oh boy, do we really have to try this?"},{"startTime":1252.055,"endTime":1253.465,"body":"Like, do we really have"},{"startTime":1252.055,"endTime":1253.465,"body":"to go through this?"},{"startTime":1253.615,"endTime":1257.385,"body":"We're going to try it and it's going"},{"startTime":1253.615,"endTime":1257.385,"body":"to be Terrible and then hoping that"},{"startTime":1257.385,"endTime":1261.875,"body":"that leader stands up and says hey I"},{"startTime":1257.385,"endTime":1261.875,"body":"did like I made a decision that it's"},{"startTime":1261.905,"endTime":1263.715,"body":"not turning out the way I expected."},{"startTime":1263.715,"endTime":1267.015,"body":"Let's pivot hoping they"},{"startTime":1263.715,"endTime":1267.015,"body":"make the right decision."},{"startTime":1267.09,"endTime":1271.91,"body":"Because even failures could be wins"},{"startTime":1267.09,"endTime":1271.91,"body":"if you decide to pivot based off of"},{"startTime":1271.91,"endTime":1276.065,"body":"what you learned, the problem here is"},{"startTime":1271.91,"endTime":1276.065,"body":"by the time we've paid the money and"},{"startTime":1276.065,"endTime":1279.945,"body":"realize that we have been had whoever"},{"startTime":1276.065,"endTime":1279.945,"body":"paid the money is not willing to say."},{"startTime":1280.095,"endTime":1281.495,"body":"Listen, we've been had."},{"startTime":1281.645,"endTime":1282.755,"body":"Let's go."},{"startTime":1282.905,"endTime":1283.745,"body":"Let's go, kids."},{"startTime":1283.785,"endTime":1284.855,"body":"Back in the station wagon."},{"startTime":1284.855,"endTime":1285.415,"body":"We're leaving."},{"startTime":1285.615,"endTime":1286.545,"body":"Like, they're not willing to stay."},{"startTime":1286.545,"endTime":1290.705,"body":"They would rather just Suffer"},{"startTime":1286.545,"endTime":1290.705,"body":"throw more in rather than say"},{"startTime":1290.705,"endTime":1291.935,"body":"that they were wrong here."},{"startTime":1292.015,"endTime":1292.305,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1292.315,"endTime":1294.205,"body":"You know, we can fix this."},{"startTime":1294.355,"endTime":1294.955,"body":"Move on."},{"startTime":1295.195,"endTime":1298.25,"body":"The funny thing about this is at"},{"startTime":1295.195,"endTime":1298.25,"body":"every company I've ever been at"},{"startTime":1298.29,"endTime":1300.28,"body":"with product, product management."},{"startTime":1300.43,"endTime":1304.975,"body":"Usually when I come in, I lobby very"},{"startTime":1300.43,"endTime":1304.975,"body":"hard for them to do user personas."},{"startTime":1305.245,"endTime":1307.285,"body":"Hey, you need to know who you're"},{"startTime":1305.245,"endTime":1307.285,"body":"building the software for."},{"startTime":1307.435,"endTime":1307.765,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1307.915,"endTime":1308.665,"body":"And they don't have it."},{"startTime":1308.665,"endTime":1311.875,"body":"They like, I've, I've been at zero"},{"startTime":1308.665,"endTime":1311.875,"body":"companies that have it when I get there."},{"startTime":1311.905,"endTime":1312.145,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1312.205,"endTime":1312.445,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1312.595,"endTime":1315.805,"body":"And when I, when I get there, I'm"},{"startTime":1312.595,"endTime":1315.805,"body":"like, Hey, you need to build personas."},{"startTime":1315.985,"endTime":1318.085,"body":"And, we're gonna build them"},{"startTime":1315.985,"endTime":1318.085,"body":"based on our expertise."},{"startTime":1318.085,"endTime":1319.315,"body":"And this, we're just gonna get moving."},{"startTime":1319.39,"endTime":1321.63,"body":"And then when we build the"},{"startTime":1319.39,"endTime":1321.63,"body":"personas, I put a little"},{"startTime":1321.63,"endTime":1323.55,"body":"parentheses that says, assumption."},{"startTime":1323.7,"endTime":1325.79,"body":"And they're assumption based personas."},{"startTime":1326.08,"endTime":1329.94,"body":"I like to have assumption based"},{"startTime":1326.08,"endTime":1329.94,"body":"personas and then factual personas."},{"startTime":1330.1,"endTime":1332.65,"body":"So, and I tell the teams, I was"},{"startTime":1330.1,"endTime":1332.65,"body":"like, we're, we're gonna start with"},{"startTime":1332.66,"endTime":1333.94,"body":"these assumption based personas."},{"startTime":1334.295,"endTime":1337.855,"body":"And then when we start talking to"},{"startTime":1334.295,"endTime":1337.855,"body":"actual users of the software, we"},{"startTime":1337.855,"endTime":1340.535,"body":"can start asking them the questions"},{"startTime":1337.855,"endTime":1340.535,"body":"that are on these personas."},{"startTime":1340.685,"endTime":1345.545,"body":"And then we can start filling in the Our"},{"startTime":1340.685,"endTime":1345.545,"body":"best guess is, yes, there are guesses,"},{"startTime":1345.695,"endTime":1349.87,"body":"our best guess is we can start filling"},{"startTime":1345.695,"endTime":1349.87,"body":"in with actual, factual, evidence that we"},{"startTime":1349.87,"endTime":1352.0,"body":"hear from the person who that person is."},{"startTime":1352.0,"endTime":1357.11,"body":"So we turn, over time we turn, we turn"},{"startTime":1352.0,"endTime":1357.11,"body":"assumption based personas into fact"},{"startTime":1357.19,"endTime":1360.03,"body":"based, interview based personas over time."},{"startTime":1360.28,"endTime":1364.27,"body":"And and then you actually get to"},{"startTime":1360.28,"endTime":1364.27,"body":"know the actual, the real user who"},{"startTime":1364.27,"endTime":1365.29,"body":"you're building the software for."},{"startTime":1365.48,"endTime":1367.39,"body":"And I've reiterated that process."},{"startTime":1367.54,"endTime":1370.77,"body":"At every company I've ever done product"},{"startTime":1367.54,"endTime":1370.77,"body":"for, this, this is kind of the same"},{"startTime":1370.77,"endTime":1375.16,"body":"thing of where we're talking about, the,"},{"startTime":1370.77,"endTime":1375.16,"body":"the short term wins, the, the failures,"},{"startTime":1375.5,"endTime":1379.73,"body":"like you can assume that, something is"},{"startTime":1375.5,"endTime":1379.73,"body":"a certain way, but until you, you start"},{"startTime":1379.73,"endTime":1383.92,"body":"gathering evidence that it is that way,"},{"startTime":1379.73,"endTime":1383.92,"body":"like you really shouldn't take it on your"},{"startTime":1383.93,"endTime":1389.0,"body":"ego or, go all in or get defensive or"},{"startTime":1383.93,"endTime":1389.0,"body":"whatever, cause you don't have evidence"},{"startTime":1389.135,"endTime":1394.255,"body":"If you're a product manager and someone's"},{"startTime":1389.135,"endTime":1394.255,"body":"trying to set your teams up in a way where"},{"startTime":1394.255,"endTime":1396.865,"body":"you have all these silos or whatever,"},{"startTime":1394.255,"endTime":1396.865,"body":"maybe you can sit down with them and"},{"startTime":1396.865,"endTime":1398.895,"body":"say, hey, I'm okay with this for now."},{"startTime":1399.045,"endTime":1401.265,"body":"As we get some evidence along the way."},{"startTime":1401.415,"endTime":1406.855,"body":"Do we agree to revisit this topic and talk"},{"startTime":1401.415,"endTime":1406.855,"body":"about the evidence that we've seen in two"},{"startTime":1406.855,"endTime":1410.485,"body":"months, three months, whatever, like if"},{"startTime":1406.855,"endTime":1410.485,"body":"you can get, if you can, if you can kind"},{"startTime":1410.485,"endTime":1414.985,"body":"of just hedge that bet a little bit with"},{"startTime":1410.485,"endTime":1414.985,"body":"them, so when you're ready, when you're"},{"startTime":1414.985,"endTime":1416.795,"body":"ready to say, look, your strategy sucks."},{"startTime":1417.095,"endTime":1417.305,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1417.435,"endTime":1420.955,"body":"Let's talk about like, Picking a"},{"startTime":1417.435,"endTime":1420.955,"body":"good strategy, you, you've got an"},{"startTime":1420.965,"endTime":1423.155,"body":"in where they don't feel defensive."},{"startTime":1423.215,"endTime":1423.615,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1423.775,"endTime":1427.105,"body":"Cause you, at the beginning you said,"},{"startTime":1423.775,"endTime":1427.105,"body":"hey, let's, let's agree that this"},{"startTime":1427.105,"endTime":1428.485,"body":"is an assumption based strategy."},{"startTime":1428.755,"endTime":1431.235,"body":"Let's agree that we will revisit"},{"startTime":1428.755,"endTime":1431.235,"body":"it in three months when there's"},{"startTime":1431.265,"endTime":1432.805,"body":"evidence, next quarter, whatever."},{"startTime":1432.955,"endTime":1435.175,"body":"And I, that's not too hard."},{"startTime":1435.175,"endTime":1437.455,"body":"I, that, that, I don't think that"},{"startTime":1435.175,"endTime":1437.455,"body":"would upset too many ego, I mean,"},{"startTime":1437.495,"endTime":1438.95,"body":"it might upset some egos, but."},{"startTime":1439.25,"endTime":1443.8,"body":"So it sounds like what I'm hearing is"},{"startTime":1439.25,"endTime":1443.8,"body":"that number one, you need to recognize"},{"startTime":1443.8,"endTime":1448.96,"body":"that this is an assumption and that might,"},{"startTime":1443.8,"endTime":1448.96,"body":"so, so once the, once you've agreed that"},{"startTime":1448.96,"endTime":1453.9,"body":"this is an assumption, then admitting"},{"startTime":1448.96,"endTime":1453.9,"body":"that, hey, once we know, and we all agree"},{"startTime":1453.9,"endTime":1457.84,"body":"that it's an assumption, then We have"},{"startTime":1453.9,"endTime":1457.84,"body":"that little doorway and we can back out"},{"startTime":1457.84,"endTime":1459.77,"body":"and it's not, we, it was an assumption."},{"startTime":1459.77,"endTime":1462.46,"body":"So we have the opportunity"},{"startTime":1459.77,"endTime":1462.46,"body":"to say, well, it didn't work."},{"startTime":1462.47,"endTime":1463.23,"body":"They can back out."},{"startTime":1463.27,"endTime":1465.65,"body":"The leader can back out without,"},{"startTime":1463.27,"endTime":1465.65,"body":"without losing the manager"},{"startTime":1465.65,"endTime":1466.77,"body":"here without losing face."},{"startTime":1466.77,"endTime":1467.56,"body":"Yes, absolutely."},{"startTime":1467.64,"endTime":1468.03,"body":"But."},{"startTime":1468.18,"endTime":1472.09,"body":"I think the hardest part is"},{"startTime":1468.18,"endTime":1472.09,"body":"not, is, is not necessarily"},{"startTime":1472.09,"endTime":1473.6,"body":"kind of setting up that process."},{"startTime":1473.61,"endTime":1479.17,"body":"It's recognizing from the, from the"},{"startTime":1473.61,"endTime":1479.17,"body":"beginning, what is the assumption, right?"},{"startTime":1479.32,"endTime":1481.52,"body":"So that's, I think maybe the hardest part."},{"startTime":1481.56,"endTime":1484.715,"body":"Yeah, it, it certainly requires"},{"startTime":1481.56,"endTime":1484.715,"body":"some expertise however."},{"startTime":1484.865,"endTime":1489.315,"body":"Like if you listen to the podcast, if"},{"startTime":1484.865,"endTime":1489.315,"body":"you've listened to 120 something episodes"},{"startTime":1489.315,"endTime":1493.425,"body":"of the podcast, you should realize when,"},{"startTime":1489.315,"endTime":1493.425,"body":"your leaders are, they're sending you"},{"startTime":1493.425,"endTime":1497.14,"body":"down the path to the dark side and like,"},{"startTime":1493.425,"endTime":1497.14,"body":"I feel you should like, I'm a team player."},{"startTime":1497.16,"endTime":1499.27,"body":"I'm going to like salute"},{"startTime":1497.16,"endTime":1499.27,"body":"and say, yes, sir."},{"startTime":1499.27,"endTime":1504.86,"body":"And I'm here for the team or"},{"startTime":1499.27,"endTime":1504.86,"body":"whatever, but can we agree X, Y, Z?"},{"startTime":1504.945,"endTime":1508.345,"body":"but I would say like for what you're"},{"startTime":1504.945,"endTime":1508.345,"body":"talking about, like if you've not, if"},{"startTime":1508.345,"endTime":1511.185,"body":"you've not created a guiding coalition."},{"startTime":1511.335,"endTime":1516.425,"body":"Who develops a strategy and pushes the,"},{"startTime":1511.335,"endTime":1516.425,"body":"pushes and communicates a strategy out."},{"startTime":1516.575,"endTime":1520.575,"body":"You're gonna fall foul here in this step,"},{"startTime":1516.575,"endTime":1520.575,"body":"which is you're trying to generate short"},{"startTime":1520.575,"endTime":1525.755,"body":"term wins and you got people sabotaging"},{"startTime":1520.575,"endTime":1525.755,"body":"or fighting back or, trying, trying to,"},{"startTime":1525.805,"endTime":1528.495,"body":"trying to, to, to shoot down your wins."},{"startTime":1528.495,"endTime":1532.385,"body":"Like, oh, you only won because"},{"startTime":1528.495,"endTime":1532.385,"body":"XYZ, whatever excuses, or the"},{"startTime":1532.385,"endTime":1536.275,"body":"worst case is someone trying to"},{"startTime":1532.385,"endTime":1536.275,"body":"actively sabotage you winning."},{"startTime":1536.35,"endTime":1542.335,"body":"And, inside of generating short term"},{"startTime":1536.35,"endTime":1542.335,"body":"wins, you also start down the road of"},{"startTime":1542.485,"endTime":1545.835,"body":"changing the way your goals are set"},{"startTime":1542.485,"endTime":1545.835,"body":"and changing the way your incentives"},{"startTime":1546.055,"endTime":1550.045,"body":"are done and a lot of stuff that"},{"startTime":1546.055,"endTime":1550.045,"body":"really is ingrained in the culture."},{"startTime":1550.315,"endTime":1553.135,"body":"Once you start generating wins,"},{"startTime":1550.315,"endTime":1553.135,"body":"you start realizing like the"},{"startTime":1553.135,"endTime":1554.855,"body":"model we're using is not working."},{"startTime":1555.145,"endTime":1557.295,"body":"We need to go, generate new models."},{"startTime":1557.475,"endTime":1560.575,"body":"Now you're, now you're headed towards"},{"startTime":1557.475,"endTime":1560.575,"body":"real change because step seven."},{"startTime":1560.89,"endTime":1563.08,"body":"And eight in John Cotter's leading change."},{"startTime":1563.08,"endTime":1566.85,"body":"Step seven is consolidating those gains,"},{"startTime":1563.08,"endTime":1566.85,"body":"aggregating them and bringing them"},{"startTime":1566.85,"endTime":1568.02,"body":"into one place where they're visible."},{"startTime":1568.15,"endTime":1571.94,"body":"And then starting to, to, to"},{"startTime":1568.15,"endTime":1571.94,"body":"basically point everyone back to just"},{"startTime":1571.94,"endTime":1576.82,"body":"those gains to check out my gains,"},{"startTime":1571.94,"endTime":1576.82,"body":"to, to, to basically your, your."},{"startTime":1576.841,"endTime":1583.68,"body":"You're, you're creating a snowball to"},{"startTime":1576.841,"endTime":1583.68,"body":"increase and produce more gains towards"},{"startTime":1583.68,"endTime":1584.67,"body":"change, towards where you're going."},{"startTime":1584.82,"endTime":1589.67,"body":"And then, step eight, his final,"},{"startTime":1584.82,"endTime":1589.67,"body":"his final step in the book is to"},{"startTime":1589.78,"endTime":1591.39,"body":"anchor the new way of working."},{"startTime":1591.55,"endTime":1594.49,"body":"So where, for example, if you're spinning"},{"startTime":1591.55,"endTime":1594.49,"body":"up a new team and you're like, Oh, I want"},{"startTime":1594.49,"endTime":1598.19,"body":"to do this with this new team and say,"},{"startTime":1594.49,"endTime":1598.19,"body":"well, you need to do it in a way where"},{"startTime":1598.19,"endTime":1600.37,"body":"this other team is, winning basically."},{"startTime":1600.59,"endTime":1601.27,"body":"This other team is."},{"startTime":1601.42,"endTime":1603.87,"body":"Performing, top notch and you"},{"startTime":1601.42,"endTime":1603.87,"body":"need to do what they're doing."},{"startTime":1603.99,"endTime":1607.03,"body":"Well, I'd prefer to do it in an"},{"startTime":1603.99,"endTime":1607.03,"body":"old school way or whatever, but no,"},{"startTime":1607.03,"endTime":1610.22,"body":"no, that's not available because"},{"startTime":1607.03,"endTime":1610.22,"body":"everything from here on, we're"},{"startTime":1610.22,"endTime":1611.76,"body":"committing to this new way of working."},{"startTime":1611.95,"endTime":1615.11,"body":"This is like what you've heard in agile"},{"startTime":1611.95,"endTime":1615.11,"body":"transformation is all like Oh, I want to"},{"startTime":1615.19,"endTime":1618.6,"body":"create a new team, a new development team,"},{"startTime":1615.19,"endTime":1618.6,"body":"and I don't want to use any methodology."},{"startTime":1618.6,"endTime":1620.07,"body":"I just want to use whatever, um."},{"startTime":1620.275,"endTime":1621.245,"body":"Well, that's fine."},{"startTime":1621.255,"endTime":1625.135,"body":"But, you still need to tell us, what is"},{"startTime":1621.255,"endTime":1625.135,"body":"your throughput and you need to tell us,"},{"startTime":1625.315,"endTime":1627.075,"body":"what strategies are you engaging with?"},{"startTime":1627.255,"endTime":1630.505,"body":"You need, so if you don't use scrum, and"},{"startTime":1627.255,"endTime":1630.505,"body":"you're not gonna use Kanban like that's"},{"startTime":1630.505,"endTime":1635.365,"body":"fine, but we have a framework to tell us"},{"startTime":1630.505,"endTime":1635.365,"body":"what business value we're knocking out."},{"startTime":1635.365,"endTime":1637.285,"body":"What, what, what business"},{"startTime":1635.365,"endTime":1637.285,"body":"problems are you tackling?"},{"startTime":1637.445,"endTime":1638.305,"body":"I'm not going to do any of that."},{"startTime":1638.305,"endTime":1641.625,"body":"I'm just going to be over here"},{"startTime":1638.305,"endTime":1641.625,"body":"and hang out because Bob knows."},{"startTime":1641.775,"endTime":1646.245,"body":"What to do or Fred knows what to"},{"startTime":1641.775,"endTime":1646.245,"body":"do like that's not gonna cut it in"},{"startTime":1646.245,"endTime":1649.975,"body":"the new way of working in the new"},{"startTime":1646.245,"endTime":1649.975,"body":"way of working so I would assume."},{"startTime":1650.125,"endTime":1654.075,"body":"So I would assume if there's a new way"},{"startTime":1650.125,"endTime":1654.075,"body":"of working number one once we go through"},{"startTime":1654.355,"endTime":1659.195,"body":"remember that all of these steps are"},{"startTime":1654.355,"endTime":1659.195,"body":"building on the prior step right so So"},{"startTime":1659.195,"endTime":1662.995,"body":"once you get to six, you've always got"},{"startTime":1659.195,"endTime":1662.995,"body":"already gone through one through five."},{"startTime":1662.995,"endTime":1663.325,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1663.445,"endTime":1666.435,"body":"So, and then once we get to"},{"startTime":1663.445,"endTime":1666.435,"body":"seven, we've really kind of"},{"startTime":1666.435,"endTime":1668.645,"body":"ingrained that into our culture."},{"startTime":1668.975,"endTime":1672.475,"body":"And then eight is now just"},{"startTime":1668.975,"endTime":1672.475,"body":"making that exponential."},{"startTime":1672.505,"endTime":1676.215,"body":"So being able to not just it's"},{"startTime":1672.505,"endTime":1676.215,"body":"ingrained, but we're replicating."},{"startTime":1676.365,"endTime":1679.785,"body":"So that means that new, the"},{"startTime":1676.365,"endTime":1679.785,"body":"new team coming on, I would."},{"startTime":1679.915,"endTime":1682.045,"body":"I assume at that point, actually,"},{"startTime":1679.915,"endTime":1682.045,"body":"because it's ingrained in our"},{"startTime":1682.045,"endTime":1685.735,"body":"culture, we've probably developed"},{"startTime":1682.045,"endTime":1685.735,"body":"a method in which we are onboarding"},{"startTime":1685.745,"endTime":1689.445,"body":"that new team so that they are also"},{"startTime":1685.745,"endTime":1689.445,"body":"becoming ingrained in our culture."},{"startTime":1689.455,"endTime":1693.091,"body":"I mean, this is the same way last"},{"startTime":1689.455,"endTime":1693.091,"body":"podcast, we talked about if you're"},{"startTime":1693.091,"endTime":1694.251,"body":"going through a transformation."},{"startTime":1694.401,"endTime":1697.711,"body":"And you're saying, I'm gonna have a couple"},{"startTime":1694.401,"endTime":1697.711,"body":"different teams now and they have, the"},{"startTime":1697.721,"endTime":1700.751,"body":"teams have developers and the teams have"},{"startTime":1697.721,"endTime":1700.751,"body":"product managers and I'm going to start a"},{"startTime":1700.751,"endTime":1705.781,"body":"community practice with, it's a cross team"},{"startTime":1700.751,"endTime":1705.781,"body":"in that it's like discipline specific, all"},{"startTime":1705.781,"endTime":1709.711,"body":"my developers across all the teams go to"},{"startTime":1705.781,"endTime":1709.711,"body":"developer community practice where they"},{"startTime":1709.711,"endTime":1713.516,"body":"share The different things they're doing"},{"startTime":1709.711,"endTime":1713.516,"body":"in the architecture and the different ways"},{"startTime":1713.516,"endTime":1716.686,"body":"they're checking in code or deploying code"},{"startTime":1713.516,"endTime":1716.686,"body":"and the product managers talk about the"},{"startTime":1716.686,"endTime":1720.346,"body":"different ways that they're connecting"},{"startTime":1716.686,"endTime":1720.346,"body":"strategy down to their whatever epics"},{"startTime":1720.346,"endTime":1724.476,"body":"and stories and how they using JIRA or"},{"startTime":1720.346,"endTime":1724.476,"body":"whatever, or whatever ALM they're using."},{"startTime":1724.551,"endTime":1726.251,"body":"Or whatever good tools they're using."},{"startTime":1726.476,"endTime":1729.066,"body":"And maybe the scrum masters have a"},{"startTime":1726.476,"endTime":1729.066,"body":"community practice where they talk"},{"startTime":1729.076,"endTime":1734.321,"body":"about how they're handling collaboration"},{"startTime":1729.076,"endTime":1734.321,"body":"between teams and scaling and and those"},{"startTime":1734.351,"endTime":1739.711,"body":"community of practices start sharing wins"},{"startTime":1734.351,"endTime":1739.711,"body":"and they maybe they showcase failures"},{"startTime":1739.901,"endTime":1743.871,"body":"in a way to say, Hey, if you run into"},{"startTime":1739.901,"endTime":1743.871,"body":"this, here's how we got around this."},{"startTime":1744.081,"endTime":1746.931,"body":"Maybe they showcase success"},{"startTime":1744.081,"endTime":1746.931,"body":"to say, Hey, we did this."},{"startTime":1746.931,"endTime":1750.031,"body":"We didn't think anything of it, but it"},{"startTime":1746.931,"endTime":1750.031,"body":"ended up being a really great thing."},{"startTime":1750.181,"endTime":1753.011,"body":"They start sharing those learning"},{"startTime":1750.181,"endTime":1753.011,"body":"so that not all your teams have"},{"startTime":1753.011,"endTime":1756.381,"body":"to make the same failure so that"},{"startTime":1753.011,"endTime":1756.381,"body":"all your teams get that learning."},{"startTime":1756.531,"endTime":1761.431,"body":"Now you've, now you're creating a"},{"startTime":1756.531,"endTime":1761.431,"body":"culture that where one team fails"},{"startTime":1761.581,"endTime":1763.671,"body":"solves a problem for all your teams."},{"startTime":1763.861,"endTime":1765.361,"body":"This is where you should be going."},{"startTime":1765.511,"endTime":1767.101,"body":"This is exactly like this is the past."},{"startTime":1767.381,"endTime":1768.311,"body":"Yeah, that's eight."},{"startTime":1768.601,"endTime":1771.581,"body":"We've received we we've gotten through"},{"startTime":1768.601,"endTime":1771.581,"body":"We've gotten to eight when we've got"},{"startTime":1771.581,"endTime":1776.916,"body":"to that mindset where we're a team or"},{"startTime":1771.581,"endTime":1776.916,"body":"a line of business, whatever the case"},{"startTime":1776.916,"endTime":1779.291,"body":"may be says this is what happened."},{"startTime":1779.441,"endTime":1781.011,"body":"And this is how we solved it."},{"startTime":1781.341,"endTime":1785.511,"body":"And we're communicating this out, to"},{"startTime":1781.341,"endTime":1785.511,"body":"make sure that everyone learns from this."},{"startTime":1785.661,"endTime":1787.451,"body":"This should be valuable information."},{"startTime":1787.451,"endTime":1790.151,"body":"And then creating a path to"},{"startTime":1787.451,"endTime":1790.151,"body":"make sure that we can do that"},{"startTime":1790.181,"endTime":1791.871,"body":"and that those are, celebrated."},{"startTime":1791.871,"endTime":1795.311,"body":"It's not just kudos and high fives for"},{"startTime":1791.871,"endTime":1795.311,"body":"the, Hey, we've got through a go live!"},{"startTime":1795.311,"endTime":1795.451,"body":"Woohoo!"},{"startTime":1795.601,"endTime":1800.151,"body":"But, really high fiving the people"},{"startTime":1795.601,"endTime":1800.151,"body":"who are vulnerable enough to come"},{"startTime":1800.151,"endTime":1801.851,"body":"forward and say, You know what?"},{"startTime":1801.891,"endTime":1803.161,"body":"I realized something."},{"startTime":1803.381,"endTime":1805.391,"body":"I, I screwed up here."},{"startTime":1805.696,"endTime":1810.081,"body":"But if I share this with you, it's going"},{"startTime":1805.696,"endTime":1810.081,"body":"to help across the board anyone else from"},{"startTime":1810.081,"endTime":1812.001,"body":"potentially making this same mistake."},{"startTime":1812.351,"endTime":1814.363,"body":"And that's huge,"},{"startTime":1812.351,"endTime":1814.363,"body":"particularly in development."},{"startTime":1814.438,"endTime":1817.828,"body":"I think the reason that I was thinking"},{"startTime":1814.438,"endTime":1817.828,"body":"about change management as a topic"},{"startTime":1817.828,"endTime":1822.648,"body":"is because it's something that I have"},{"startTime":1817.828,"endTime":1822.648,"body":"realized that I need to, that has been,"},{"startTime":1822.848,"endTime":1828.588,"body":"become part of my job role but, in"},{"startTime":1822.848,"endTime":1828.588,"body":"receiving the information that I need"},{"startTime":1828.598,"endTime":1834.798,"body":"to be, kind of a champion of change"},{"startTime":1828.598,"endTime":1834.798,"body":"management, in my role, and then having"},{"startTime":1834.918,"endTime":1840.548,"body":"conversations one on one with leaders from"},{"startTime":1834.918,"endTime":1840.548,"body":"all of these different teams and different"},{"startTime":1840.548,"endTime":1842.598,"body":"lines of business, understanding that."},{"startTime":1842.748,"endTime":1846.998,"body":"No one person had the same"},{"startTime":1842.748,"endTime":1846.998,"body":"understanding of what that meant."},{"startTime":1846.998,"endTime":1847.738,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1848.018,"endTime":1852.883,"body":"Yeah, if you find yourself in this"},{"startTime":1848.018,"endTime":1852.883,"body":"weird role, that I've, I've found"},{"startTime":1852.883,"endTime":1856.093,"body":"myself in before as a, Product manager."},{"startTime":1856.098,"endTime":1856.483,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1856.633,"endTime":1860.023,"body":", who, who was a scrum master for a,"},{"startTime":1856.633,"endTime":1860.023,"body":"who worked on technical teams for, for"},{"startTime":1860.023,"endTime":1864.013,"body":"many, many years, and then worked as a"},{"startTime":1860.023,"endTime":1864.013,"body":"scrum master, quote, playing the role."},{"startTime":1864.163,"endTime":1868.433,"body":"Now, now that I'm in that part of my"},{"startTime":1864.163,"endTime":1868.433,"body":"career where I'm purely in product, I,"},{"startTime":1868.483,"endTime":1873.033,"body":"I do find myself in the position where"},{"startTime":1868.483,"endTime":1873.033,"body":"like I, I'm the person who has most, the"},{"startTime":1873.033,"endTime":1878.918,"body":"most expertise in how teams should be,"},{"startTime":1873.033,"endTime":1878.918,"body":"formed, how teams should work together,"},{"startTime":1879.068,"endTime":1880.978,"body":"how teams should not work together."},{"startTime":1881.053,"endTime":1885.473,"body":"it's a heavy burden when I'm, I'm trying"},{"startTime":1881.053,"endTime":1885.473,"body":"to do all this product stuff, but at the"},{"startTime":1885.473,"endTime":1889.893,"body":"same time, like I'm seeing a lot of, teams"},{"startTime":1885.473,"endTime":1889.893,"body":"with a lot of challenges that I know that"},{"startTime":1889.893,"endTime":1893.663,"body":"I could easily suggest, hey, maybe you"},{"startTime":1889.893,"endTime":1893.663,"body":"should do, two, three different things."},{"startTime":1893.813,"endTime":1896.993,"body":"Like I know what the future looks like"},{"startTime":1893.813,"endTime":1896.993,"body":"for that team and I just don't have"},{"startTime":1896.993,"endTime":1901.123,"body":"the time in the day to spend with that"},{"startTime":1896.993,"endTime":1901.123,"body":"team to help them work through where"},{"startTime":1901.123,"endTime":1905.903,"body":"they should be six months 12 months, 18"},{"startTime":1901.123,"endTime":1905.903,"body":"months from now, because like my main"},{"startTime":1905.903,"endTime":1909.943,"body":"responsibilities to the product and, and"},{"startTime":1905.903,"endTime":1909.943,"body":"honestly, to my teams, like I'll, I'll"},{"startTime":1909.963,"endTime":1912.643,"body":"intersect and interact with other teams"},{"startTime":1909.963,"endTime":1912.643,"body":"that I don't even sit on those teams."},{"startTime":1912.663,"endTime":1913.613,"body":"I'm not their product manager."},{"startTime":1913.613,"endTime":1914.413,"body":"I'm not the scrum master."},{"startTime":1914.443,"endTime":1915.353,"body":"I don't even interact with them."},{"startTime":1915.353,"endTime":1918.873,"body":"They're like stakeholder teams and"},{"startTime":1915.353,"endTime":1918.873,"body":"I'm trying to help them because"},{"startTime":1919.083,"endTime":1922.553,"body":"there are, they are stakeholders"},{"startTime":1919.083,"endTime":1922.553,"body":"to me and I'm like, Hey, have you"},{"startTime":1922.583,"endTime":1924.833,"body":"thought about maybe doing this?"},{"startTime":1924.983,"endTime":1928.873,"body":"With your team structure or maybe"},{"startTime":1924.983,"endTime":1928.873,"body":"interfacing this way with other teams"},{"startTime":1928.873,"endTime":1933.493,"body":"or, the most difficult, part of a scrum"},{"startTime":1928.873,"endTime":1933.493,"body":"as a job is when they have to urge"},{"startTime":1933.493,"endTime":1937.773,"body":"teams to work with other teams to plan."},{"startTime":1937.923,"endTime":1940.243,"body":"So to say like, Hey,"},{"startTime":1937.923,"endTime":1940.243,"body":"we want to refine this."},{"startTime":1940.393,"endTime":1941.973,"body":"Epic or story or whatever."},{"startTime":1941.983,"endTime":1945.983,"body":"And in order to do that, the best people"},{"startTime":1941.983,"endTime":1945.983,"body":"in the organization is this other team."},{"startTime":1946.133,"endTime":1946.803,"body":"So what do we do?"},{"startTime":1946.833,"endTime":1950.873,"body":"Do we just get on a call with everybody"},{"startTime":1946.833,"endTime":1950.873,"body":"and who's going to moderate that?"},{"startTime":1950.893,"endTime":1953.473,"body":"And, maybe they have a scrum master,"},{"startTime":1950.893,"endTime":1953.473,"body":"we have a scrum master, or do we"},{"startTime":1953.473,"endTime":1957.153,"body":"just get the lead of that team and"},{"startTime":1953.473,"endTime":1957.153,"body":"then a senior developer or whatever,"},{"startTime":1957.153,"endTime":1959.623,"body":"and they just get together and plan"},{"startTime":1957.153,"endTime":1959.623,"body":"it like how, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1959.803,"endTime":1960.453,"body":"But what is the best?"},{"startTime":1960.463,"endTime":1963.403,"body":"I, I don't, you probably have to try, but"},{"startTime":1960.463,"endTime":1963.403,"body":"yeah, you have to try a bunch of different"},{"startTime":1963.443,"endTime":1964.583,"body":"things to figure out what the best is."},{"startTime":1964.843,"endTime":1969.523,"body":"But, the point is, I'm not a scrum"},{"startTime":1964.843,"endTime":1969.523,"body":"master or the product manager for those"},{"startTime":1969.523,"endTime":1971.473,"body":"teams or anyone's manager in this case."},{"startTime":1971.838,"endTime":1976.068,"body":"I'll bring all this up to say, if"},{"startTime":1971.838,"endTime":1976.068,"body":"you are the de facto expert, there"},{"startTime":1976.078,"endTime":1977.228,"body":"are two paths in front of you."},{"startTime":1977.298,"endTime":1977.968,"body":"This is not true."},{"startTime":1977.968,"endTime":1979.038,"body":"There's many paths in front of you."},{"startTime":1979.038,"endTime":1981.258,"body":"I told you before the podcast,"},{"startTime":1979.038,"endTime":1981.258,"body":"I was on, I was on a program"},{"startTime":1981.408,"endTime":1982.518,"body":"at a program on a program."},{"startTime":1982.668,"endTime":1987.158,"body":"I was assigned to a team one"},{"startTime":1982.668,"endTime":1987.158,"body":"time and, the, person I work for"},{"startTime":1987.158,"endTime":1988.438,"body":"was not on any of those teams."},{"startTime":1988.438,"endTime":1990.578,"body":"They were not even in that"},{"startTime":1988.438,"endTime":1990.578,"body":"departmental structure."},{"startTime":1990.728,"endTime":1991.668,"body":"The person I worked for."},{"startTime":1992.018,"endTime":1995.598,"body":"And I remember the person I work"},{"startTime":1992.018,"endTime":1995.598,"body":"for coming to me and saying, listen,"},{"startTime":1995.748,"endTime":1998.498,"body":"look, we hired you as I think"},{"startTime":1995.748,"endTime":1998.498,"body":"they hired me as a scrum master."},{"startTime":1998.688,"endTime":2002.878,"body":"We hired you as a scrum master and,"},{"startTime":1998.688,"endTime":2002.878,"body":"we need you to go in and just pick"},{"startTime":2002.878,"endTime":2005.768,"body":"people, pick a subject matter expert"},{"startTime":2002.878,"endTime":2005.768,"body":"and be like, you're the product"},{"startTime":2005.768,"endTime":2009.388,"body":"owner now pick a developer and, and"},{"startTime":2005.768,"endTime":2009.388,"body":"be like, you're the, you're the."},{"startTime":2009.538,"endTime":2013.828,"body":"Scrum master now and then teach and coach"},{"startTime":2009.538,"endTime":2013.828,"body":"those people have one on ones regular"},{"startTime":2013.828,"endTime":2017.513,"body":"basis, you know once a week or whatever"},{"startTime":2013.828,"endTime":2017.513,"body":"but you have the expertise we hired you"},{"startTime":2017.633,"endTime":2020.893,"body":"in this position But now that you're"},{"startTime":2017.633,"endTime":2020.893,"body":"here and you're observing these problems"},{"startTime":2021.043,"endTime":2025.283,"body":"What we realize is what we really need"},{"startTime":2021.043,"endTime":2025.283,"body":"is we need someone who can coach the"},{"startTime":2025.283,"endTime":2030.838,"body":"people into the roles because we have"},{"startTime":2025.283,"endTime":2030.838,"body":"too many teams for you to sit with any"},{"startTime":2030.838,"endTime":2034.678,"body":"one team on a permanent basis So we"},{"startTime":2030.838,"endTime":2034.678,"body":"really need you to spread your expertise"},{"startTime":2034.728,"endTime":2038.878,"body":"across the entire program, instead of"},{"startTime":2034.728,"endTime":2038.878,"body":"like one or two teams It's like seven"},{"startTime":2038.958,"endTime":2043.838,"body":"or eight teams And we're really changing"},{"startTime":2038.958,"endTime":2043.838,"body":"the role that we brought you in for."},{"startTime":2044.158,"endTime":2045.338,"body":"And I had a choice there."},{"startTime":2045.413,"endTime":2049.383,"body":"Instead of being an individual"},{"startTime":2045.413,"endTime":2049.383,"body":"contributor to one team, being sort of"},{"startTime":2049.383,"endTime":2054.703,"body":"a mentor and coach to many teams and"},{"startTime":2049.383,"endTime":2054.703,"body":"going where I'm most critically needed."},{"startTime":2054.983,"endTime":2058.413,"body":"And it was a completely different"},{"startTime":2054.983,"endTime":2058.413,"body":"role, that I kind of, found myself in."},{"startTime":2058.563,"endTime":2061.863,"body":"You know, I feel if you're in"},{"startTime":2058.563,"endTime":2061.863,"body":"product and you understand, Oh"},{"startTime":2061.863,"endTime":2063.063,"body":"boy, welcome to my monologue."},{"startTime":2063.223,"endTime":2065.923,"body":"Let's get the assumptions out"},{"startTime":2063.223,"endTime":2065.923,"body":"of the way You understand the"},{"startTime":2065.923,"endTime":2068.403,"body":"job of product owner to a team."},{"startTime":2068.553,"endTime":2070.653,"body":"You also understand what a"},{"startTime":2068.553,"endTime":2070.653,"body":"product manager does that a"},{"startTime":2070.653,"endTime":2072.293,"body":"product owner may or may not do."},{"startTime":2072.443,"endTime":2075.993,"body":"And also you understand the"},{"startTime":2072.443,"endTime":2075.993,"body":"basics of agility with regard"},{"startTime":2076.003,"endTime":2078.163,"body":"to how teams should be formed."},{"startTime":2078.313,"endTime":2082.563,"body":"If you understand all that, you maybe"},{"startTime":2078.313,"endTime":2082.563,"body":"have some skills that are a lot of"},{"startTime":2082.563,"endTime":2086.063,"body":"transferable skills that maybe they"},{"startTime":2082.563,"endTime":2086.063,"body":"need in, in different parts of your"},{"startTime":2086.063,"endTime":2090.323,"body":"organization and maybe you'll find"},{"startTime":2086.063,"endTime":2090.323,"body":"your If you're an organization that the"},{"startTime":2090.323,"endTime":2094.783,"body":"level of maturity of your teams is much"},{"startTime":2090.323,"endTime":2094.783,"body":"lower than what you have experienced"},{"startTime":2094.783,"endTime":2098.518,"body":"in the past, Maybe you found an"},{"startTime":2094.783,"endTime":2098.518,"body":"opportunity to grow in your career to"},{"startTime":2098.518,"endTime":2103.218,"body":"move yourself into a slightly different"},{"startTime":2098.518,"endTime":2103.218,"body":"role where instead of one team You're"},{"startTime":2103.218,"endTime":2107.098,"body":"now spread across a couple different"},{"startTime":2103.218,"endTime":2107.098,"body":"teams and you're in a more strategic."},{"startTime":2107.108,"endTime":2110.718,"body":"You're more in the product manager"},{"startTime":2107.108,"endTime":2110.718,"body":"side Of the business than you are"},{"startTime":2110.718,"endTime":2114.888,"body":"any in any individual product owner"},{"startTime":2110.718,"endTime":2114.888,"body":"team level side of the business"},{"startTime":2114.888,"endTime":2116.238,"body":"and maybe that's an opportunity."},{"startTime":2116.388,"endTime":2119.828,"body":"So as, as long as you're not setting"},{"startTime":2116.388,"endTime":2119.828,"body":"yourself up for failure, I would"},{"startTime":2119.828,"endTime":2123.698,"body":"say there's some, there could be a"},{"startTime":2119.828,"endTime":2123.698,"body":"cautionary tale there, to be very honest."},{"startTime":2123.698,"endTime":2124.408,"body":"That's very true."},{"startTime":2124.558,"endTime":2128.088,"body":"That said, if you feel confident"},{"startTime":2124.558,"endTime":2128.088,"body":"that you've got the backup you"},{"startTime":2128.088,"endTime":2131.778,"body":"need, from a leadership perspective,"},{"startTime":2128.088,"endTime":2131.778,"body":"you might not even need."},{"startTime":2131.928,"endTime":2134.698,"body":"someone to come to you and say,"},{"startTime":2131.928,"endTime":2134.698,"body":"Hey, I'd like you to do this."},{"startTime":2134.988,"endTime":2138.448,"body":"I would challenge someone"},{"startTime":2134.988,"endTime":2138.448,"body":"who recognizes a need."},{"startTime":2138.448,"endTime":2139.988,"body":"So see a need, fill a need, right?"},{"startTime":2140.088,"endTime":2144.473,"body":"So I would challenge someone who"},{"startTime":2140.088,"endTime":2144.473,"body":"recognizes a need and sees that there's"},{"startTime":2144.473,"endTime":2149.553,"body":"that change management opportunity and"},{"startTime":2144.473,"endTime":2149.553,"body":"you have the skill, and, and feel like,"},{"startTime":2149.553,"endTime":2152.203,"body":"Hey, I could do something bigger here."},{"startTime":2152.373,"endTime":2156.063,"body":"Yeah, I would challenge somebody"},{"startTime":2152.373,"endTime":2156.063,"body":"to go to that leader and say,"},{"startTime":2156.063,"endTime":2157.728,"body":"Hey, what do you think about this?"},{"startTime":2157.728,"endTime":2161.288,"body":"I could, this is something I feel"},{"startTime":2157.728,"endTime":2161.288,"body":"confident that I could do and that"},{"startTime":2161.288,"endTime":2166.438,"body":"could, assist us to, on a larger"},{"startTime":2161.288,"endTime":2166.438,"body":"scale to grow as an organization."},{"startTime":2166.588,"endTime":2168.258,"body":"I mean, be your own advocate."},{"startTime":2168.593,"endTime":2171.563,"body":"At that point, you probably"},{"startTime":2168.593,"endTime":2171.563,"body":"could, start implementing these"},{"startTime":2171.763,"endTime":2173.483,"body":"John Cotter Leaning Change steps."},{"startTime":2173.483,"endTime":2174.223,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2174.283,"endTime":2177.033,"body":"You know, instead, I said, the John"},{"startTime":2174.283,"endTime":2177.033,"body":"Cotter Leaning Change book is really"},{"startTime":2177.033,"endTime":2181.743,"body":"meant for, executives and director"},{"startTime":2177.033,"endTime":2181.743,"body":"level people kind of, trying to, to,"},{"startTime":2181.853,"endTime":2184.033,"body":"to sponsor change to the organization."},{"startTime":2184.033,"endTime":2187.338,"body":"But, where you were going,"},{"startTime":2184.033,"endTime":2187.338,"body":"was you could do this."},{"startTime":2187.438,"endTime":2190.858,"body":"You can get an executive sponsor"},{"startTime":2187.438,"endTime":2190.858,"body":"and then you can start building"},{"startTime":2190.858,"endTime":2192.868,"body":"your own guiding coalition."},{"startTime":2193.098,"endTime":2197.158,"body":"You know, you can start collecting"},{"startTime":2193.098,"endTime":2197.158,"body":"your own wild West posse to, go right"},{"startTime":2197.158,"endTime":2199.608,"body":"out when you need to have a gunfight"},{"startTime":2197.158,"endTime":2199.608,"body":"or whatever, I'm not saying go and"},{"startTime":2199.608,"endTime":2200.998,"body":"get, go and get in the gunfights."},{"startTime":2201.148,"endTime":2201.988,"body":"Howdy partner."},{"startTime":2201.998,"endTime":2202.298,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2202.298,"endTime":2202.508,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2202.768,"endTime":2203.878,"body":"It's a howdy partner."},{"startTime":2204.028,"endTime":2205.368,"body":"There's a fallout reference in here."},{"startTime":2205.443,"endTime":2210.843,"body":"That said, so just thinking about kind"},{"startTime":2205.443,"endTime":2210.843,"body":"of the organization that we may be coming"},{"startTime":2210.853,"endTime":2217.213,"body":"from so, if you are being that kind of"},{"startTime":2210.853,"endTime":2217.213,"body":"self advocating champion for yourself"},{"startTime":2217.213,"endTime":2222.073,"body":"and potentially you see an opportunity"},{"startTime":2217.213,"endTime":2222.073,"body":"that you could, engage and build and"},{"startTime":2222.073,"endTime":2228.393,"body":"grow yourself and the company and are"},{"startTime":2222.073,"endTime":2228.393,"body":"advocating that to leadership, if you"},{"startTime":2228.393,"endTime":2234.163,"body":"have these silos very, built into the"},{"startTime":2228.393,"endTime":2234.163,"body":"company, understand that, you're going to"},{"startTime":2234.163,"endTime":2238.933,"body":"have your work cut out for you and there's"},{"startTime":2234.163,"endTime":2238.933,"body":"going to be people that are, are not, not"},{"startTime":2238.933,"endTime":2243.943,"body":"going to be real happy with, the potential"},{"startTime":2238.933,"endTime":2243.943,"body":"change that you're trying to implement."},{"startTime":2244.038,"endTime":2245.998,"body":"Like I say, it starts from top down."},{"startTime":2245.998,"endTime":2250.258,"body":"If we're recognizing the opportunity, we"},{"startTime":2245.998,"endTime":2250.258,"body":"see leadership that, that is ready to get"},{"startTime":2250.258,"endTime":2255.288,"body":"engaged and involved we can certainly get"},{"startTime":2250.258,"endTime":2255.288,"body":"that ball rolling and, and advocate for"},{"startTime":2255.288,"endTime":2257.128,"body":"ourselves to be a part of that change."},{"startTime":2257.278,"endTime":2257.598,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2257.748,"endTime":2258.148,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2258.198,"endTime":2258.688,"body":"And yes."},{"startTime":2258.758,"endTime":2259.158,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":2259.258,"endTime":2259.558,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2259.578,"endTime":2260.028,"body":"And yes."},{"startTime":2260.308,"endTime":2260.398,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2260.548,"endTime":2264.208,"body":"I could continue talking about this for"},{"startTime":2260.548,"endTime":2264.208,"body":"two more hours, but I'm not going to."},{"startTime":2264.453,"endTime":2269.763,"body":"If you have the experience slash skill and"},{"startTime":2264.453,"endTime":2269.763,"body":"you have the ability and the desire, yes."},{"startTime":2269.793,"endTime":2273.583,"body":"And the desire to deal with"},{"startTime":2269.793,"endTime":2273.583,"body":"this, like knowing that in some"},{"startTime":2273.593,"endTime":2277.383,"body":"circumstances you might be taking on"},{"startTime":2273.593,"endTime":2277.383,"body":"a second job of change agent, right?"},{"startTime":2277.533,"endTime":2280.273,"body":"Assuming you're not a full"},{"startTime":2277.533,"endTime":2280.273,"body":"time agile coach and that's"},{"startTime":2280.273,"endTime":2281.458,"body":"not your normal job anyway."},{"startTime":2281.608,"endTime":2283.838,"body":"Like if you're a product manager"},{"startTime":2281.608,"endTime":2283.838,"body":"or somebody and you just know that,"},{"startTime":2284.008,"endTime":2286.788,"body":"Hey, we have to redesign the org,"},{"startTime":2284.008,"endTime":2286.788,"body":"that this is not going to work."},{"startTime":2286.938,"endTime":2289.768,"body":"You might be taking on a"},{"startTime":2286.938,"endTime":2289.768,"body":"second job maybe temporarily."},{"startTime":2289.768,"endTime":2292.288,"body":"I mean, that's a, that's the point"},{"startTime":2289.768,"endTime":2292.288,"body":"of getting your posse together."},{"startTime":2292.288,"endTime":2294.548,"body":"That's a point of getting"},{"startTime":2292.288,"endTime":2294.548,"body":"the guiding coalition."},{"startTime":2294.548,"endTime":2296.728,"body":"So you can distribute some of this work."},{"startTime":2296.878,"endTime":2297.908,"body":"To the rest of the coalition."},{"startTime":2297.908,"endTime":2302.198,"body":"They should be, they should be mobilizing"},{"startTime":2297.908,"endTime":2302.198,"body":"people and they should be knocking out"},{"startTime":2302.198,"endTime":2305.638,"body":"wins to ingrain this in the culture,"},{"startTime":2302.198,"endTime":2305.638,"body":"so you don't have to do it alone."},{"startTime":2305.773,"endTime":2309.593,"body":"Well, change, change management, change"},{"startTime":2305.773,"endTime":2309.593,"body":"management is interesting because change"},{"startTime":2309.593,"endTime":2314.453,"body":"management, much like agile transformation"},{"startTime":2309.593,"endTime":2314.453,"body":"in, in, in just, just the phrase."},{"startTime":2314.778,"endTime":2315.628,"body":"Means nothing."},{"startTime":2315.908,"endTime":2316.668,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2316.688,"endTime":2316.948,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2317.068,"endTime":2322.578,"body":"It really means, so it means something to"},{"startTime":2317.068,"endTime":2322.578,"body":"everyone, but it's a different something"},{"startTime":2322.658,"endTime":2326.628,"body":"to everyone, which if it means something"},{"startTime":2322.658,"endTime":2326.628,"body":"different to everyone, it means nothing."},{"startTime":2326.628,"endTime":2326.988,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2327.063,"endTime":2331.003,"body":"So if you like, if you like talking"},{"startTime":2327.063,"endTime":2331.003,"body":"about nothing, subscribe to this podcast."}]}