{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.05,"endTime":4.33,"body":"So an executive recently brought up a"},{"startTime":0.05,"endTime":4.33,"body":"gripe to me saying that, their pushback"},{"startTime":4.34,"endTime":9.59,"body":"on Agile with most most of the people"},{"startTime":4.34,"endTime":9.59,"body":"they've interacted with is that there are"},{"startTime":9.74,"endTime":14.045,"body":"no deadlines in Agile and that it is very"},{"startTime":9.74,"endTime":14.045,"body":"difficult to get them to commit to a date."},{"startTime":14.195,"endTime":17.865,"body":"It's very difficult to get, actual"},{"startTime":14.195,"endTime":17.865,"body":"estimates out of them of how long"},{"startTime":17.865,"endTime":19.125,"body":"something will take, for example."},{"startTime":19.275,"endTime":21.915,"body":"And, I thought there was, I thought"},{"startTime":19.275,"endTime":21.915,"body":"it was an interesting conversation."},{"startTime":22.055,"endTime":25.138,"body":"I decided to bring it to my"},{"startTime":22.055,"endTime":25.138,"body":"favorite enterprise agility coach."},{"startTime":25.288,"endTime":25.618,"body":"Mr."},{"startTime":25.618,"endTime":26.168,"body":"Om Patel."},{"startTime":26.326,"endTime":30.496,"body":"This topic comes up fairly often,"},{"startTime":26.326,"endTime":30.496,"body":"actually, in my experience anyway, when"},{"startTime":30.496,"endTime":32.306,"body":"people say, yeah, we're doing Agile."},{"startTime":32.316,"endTime":34.556,"body":"We don't have any dates"},{"startTime":32.316,"endTime":34.556,"body":"or we're doing Agile."},{"startTime":34.566,"endTime":35.336,"body":"We don't plan."},{"startTime":35.486,"endTime":40.196,"body":"And oftentimes it's, it comes from"},{"startTime":35.486,"endTime":40.196,"body":"a place of absolute conviction"},{"startTime":40.206,"endTime":42.286,"body":"that they say that's what Agile is."},{"startTime":42.366,"endTime":47.971,"body":"And, unfortunately not only are they"},{"startTime":42.366,"endTime":47.971,"body":"not accurate in what they're portraying?"},{"startTime":48.096,"endTime":49.466,"body":"they are way off base."},{"startTime":49.616,"endTime":53.336,"body":"So, again, I'm not blaming anybody"},{"startTime":49.616,"endTime":53.336,"body":"here, because they don't understand it."},{"startTime":53.356,"endTime":54.716,"body":"It's probably the fault of Agilis."},{"startTime":54.736,"endTime":55.766,"body":"We didn't make it clear."},{"startTime":55.916,"endTime":59.096,"body":"Over the years, in, in"},{"startTime":55.916,"endTime":59.096,"body":"advancing agility, right?"},{"startTime":59.106,"endTime":63.556,"body":"That all of these things are embraced"},{"startTime":59.106,"endTime":63.556,"body":"with, the approach of being agile."},{"startTime":63.586,"endTime":67.946,"body":"It's just that what we don't do is"},{"startTime":63.586,"endTime":67.946,"body":"we don't, we don't look at something"},{"startTime":67.956,"endTime":71.786,"body":"that isn't understood, isn't known,"},{"startTime":67.956,"endTime":71.786,"body":"it's too far in the future, etc."},{"startTime":71.936,"endTime":75.446,"body":"And lock down all sides of"},{"startTime":71.936,"endTime":75.446,"body":"the classic iron triangle."},{"startTime":75.596,"endTime":79.106,"body":"So, when there are no dates, well,"},{"startTime":75.596,"endTime":79.106,"body":"you know they complain about that"},{"startTime":79.136,"endTime":83.046,"body":"typically because they come from"},{"startTime":79.136,"endTime":83.046,"body":"a project management orientation"},{"startTime":83.316,"endTime":85.676,"body":"where you have lots of dates, right?"},{"startTime":85.931,"endTime":90.151,"body":"You have Gantt charts and you have"},{"startTime":85.931,"endTime":90.151,"body":"dates, you have milestones, for the whole"},{"startTime":90.151,"endTime":92.341,"body":"project that somebody dreamt up one day."},{"startTime":92.491,"endTime":96.031,"body":"And maybe they didn't just, I don't"},{"startTime":92.491,"endTime":96.031,"body":"want to necessarily say that they're,"},{"startTime":96.091,"endTime":98.601,"body":"they're wrong in what they're"},{"startTime":96.091,"endTime":98.601,"body":"coming up with, but they're wrong"},{"startTime":98.601,"endTime":99.511,"body":"in what they're coming up with."},{"startTime":99.791,"endTime":102.181,"body":"They may look at analogous, projects."},{"startTime":102.181,"endTime":104.971,"body":"Like we've done this project"},{"startTime":102.181,"endTime":104.971,"body":"before, something very similar."},{"startTime":105.231,"endTime":108.661,"body":"So based on that, we think that this one"},{"startTime":105.231,"endTime":108.661,"body":"is going to take something similar, right?"},{"startTime":108.751,"endTime":109.651,"body":"Okay, I understand."},{"startTime":109.721,"endTime":110.691,"body":"The rationale is there."},{"startTime":110.841,"endTime":114.531,"body":"However, then you go back to"},{"startTime":110.841,"endTime":114.531,"body":"that and, and the very same"},{"startTime":114.531,"endTime":116.311,"body":"project management folks define."},{"startTime":116.461,"endTime":119.351,"body":"a project as something being very unique."},{"startTime":119.441,"endTime":120.721,"body":"Every project is unique."},{"startTime":120.871,"endTime":123.281,"body":"Ergo, you cannot really"},{"startTime":120.871,"endTime":123.281,"body":"relate to projects."},{"startTime":123.281,"endTime":126.531,"body":"Even if you've done a similar one"},{"startTime":123.281,"endTime":126.531,"body":"before, there are lots of factors there."},{"startTime":126.866,"endTime":131.376,"body":"So dates, yes, definitely I can understand"},{"startTime":126.866,"endTime":131.376,"body":"the gripe about there are no dates."},{"startTime":131.526,"endTime":135.726,"body":"And that's possibly because they've been"},{"startTime":131.526,"endTime":135.726,"body":"told that by somebody who's an Agilist"},{"startTime":135.886,"endTime":138.116,"body":"saying, we don't have dates in Agile."},{"startTime":138.126,"endTime":139.666,"body":"We only plan two week sprints."},{"startTime":139.816,"endTime":143.026,"body":"Which is actually not correct"},{"startTime":139.816,"endTime":143.026,"body":"that we plan to experience."},{"startTime":143.026,"endTime":145.066,"body":"It's not correct that we"},{"startTime":143.026,"endTime":145.066,"body":"can't have dates, right?"},{"startTime":145.216,"endTime":148.436,"body":"The Agile doesn't mean there's no"},{"startTime":145.216,"endTime":148.436,"body":"planning, which is the other thing"},{"startTime":148.436,"endTime":150.346,"body":"that people say, you're, you're Agile."},{"startTime":150.346,"endTime":150.936,"body":"You don't plan."},{"startTime":151.196,"endTime":153.506,"body":"Yeah, no, we've absolutely planned, right?"},{"startTime":153.506,"endTime":154.776,"body":"We just plan differently."},{"startTime":154.926,"endTime":159.986,"body":"Let's stick with the no deadlines as"},{"startTime":154.926,"endTime":159.986,"body":"just to pick, pick one of the gripes."},{"startTime":160.136,"endTime":161.251,"body":"So bringing my."},{"startTime":161.401,"endTime":165.151,"body":"Product management hat to"},{"startTime":161.401,"endTime":165.151,"body":"the arena here to the arena."},{"startTime":165.181,"endTime":166.271,"body":"I don't like that's weird."},{"startTime":166.421,"endTime":169.011,"body":"Like, sorry, like I'm going to"},{"startTime":166.421,"endTime":169.011,"body":"insert like a little captain Kirk"},{"startTime":169.011,"endTime":170.101,"body":"fighting the green guy thing here."},{"startTime":170.421,"endTime":176.046,"body":"Um, like bringing my product manager hat,"},{"startTime":170.421,"endTime":176.046,"body":"what I hear, not committing to deadlines."},{"startTime":176.156,"endTime":178.096,"body":"What I hear with that is"},{"startTime":176.156,"endTime":178.096,"body":"lack of predictability."},{"startTime":178.096,"endTime":179.456,"body":"That's what I hear with that."},{"startTime":179.506,"endTime":182.726,"body":"I hear a lack of predictability"},{"startTime":179.506,"endTime":182.726,"body":"meaning you can't tell me when things"},{"startTime":182.726,"endTime":183.806,"body":"are going to be done by certain date."},{"startTime":183.956,"endTime":185.816,"body":"You can't align milestones."},{"startTime":185.966,"endTime":189.696,"body":"The first thing I'll always say when"},{"startTime":185.966,"endTime":189.696,"body":"challenged on this is, I can hit any date,"},{"startTime":189.836,"endTime":193.746,"body":"show me a Gantt chart, I can hit every"},{"startTime":189.836,"endTime":193.746,"body":"single date on that Gantt chart, 100% of"},{"startTime":193.746,"endTime":197.691,"body":"the time, and people will scoff, and say,"},{"startTime":193.746,"endTime":197.691,"body":"that's, you're being ridiculous, Brian."},{"startTime":197.841,"endTime":199.351,"body":"Stop being you or whatever."},{"startTime":199.351,"endTime":200.371,"body":"And, but it's true."},{"startTime":200.371,"endTime":204.241,"body":"I can hit, I can, I can break"},{"startTime":200.371,"endTime":204.241,"body":"work down to a granular point"},{"startTime":204.451,"endTime":205.731,"body":"where I can hit the deadline."},{"startTime":205.731,"endTime":210.081,"body":"It's just, it's just is what the"},{"startTime":205.731,"endTime":210.081,"body":"customer is receiving by that deadline"},{"startTime":210.081,"endTime":212.361,"body":"that you set often arbitrarily."},{"startTime":212.511,"endTime":214.701,"body":"Is that actually going to"},{"startTime":212.511,"endTime":214.701,"body":"solve a customer problem?"},{"startTime":214.851,"endTime":219.121,"body":"The, I mean, like when I, when I hedge"},{"startTime":214.851,"endTime":219.121,"body":"that much to bring this up, I think"},{"startTime":219.131,"endTime":220.681,"body":"we're both already shaking our heads."},{"startTime":220.681,"endTime":222.781,"body":"Like, well, no, probably not, you know?"},{"startTime":222.781,"endTime":226.471,"body":"And that's, if we even, if that's, if"},{"startTime":222.781,"endTime":226.471,"body":"we even understand the problem by the"},{"startTime":226.471,"endTime":228.601,"body":"time we set that milestone, right."},{"startTime":228.841,"endTime":231.541,"body":"But I can hit a milestone a hundred"},{"startTime":228.841,"endTime":231.541,"body":"percent of the time, that that's,"},{"startTime":231.581,"endTime":233.561,"body":"that's, that's, that's part of it."},{"startTime":233.711,"endTime":234.611,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":234.781,"endTime":235.211,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":235.221,"endTime":236.541,"body":"You could definitely hit a milestone."},{"startTime":236.541,"endTime":237.551,"body":"It's just what you're getting right."},{"startTime":237.591,"endTime":238.611,"body":"You may not even get a."},{"startTime":238.761,"endTime":242.271,"body":"Functioning product or a product"},{"startTime":238.761,"endTime":242.271,"body":"increment by that milestone,"},{"startTime":242.271,"endTime":243.451,"body":"but you can hit it, right?"},{"startTime":243.481,"endTime":246.951,"body":"And even if you did get it, to be"},{"startTime":243.481,"endTime":246.951,"body":"a functional, release or whatever."},{"startTime":247.101,"endTime":249.601,"body":"The question is, what are you"},{"startTime":247.101,"endTime":249.601,"body":"really delivering right there?"},{"startTime":249.631,"endTime":252.991,"body":"What, what, what suffers as a"},{"startTime":249.631,"endTime":252.991,"body":"result of you just having to meet"},{"startTime":253.001,"endTime":254.881,"body":"that specific deadline, right?"},{"startTime":254.931,"endTime":255.651,"body":"What gives?"},{"startTime":255.801,"endTime":259.361,"body":"Um, have you had enough feedback"},{"startTime":255.801,"endTime":259.361,"body":"from the customer by that time and"},{"startTime":259.361,"endTime":261.141,"body":"incorporated that into the product?"},{"startTime":261.291,"endTime":263.971,"body":"Do you have good quality"},{"startTime":261.291,"endTime":263.971,"body":"of the product, right?"},{"startTime":264.001,"endTime":264.901,"body":"That's usable."},{"startTime":265.141,"endTime":267.421,"body":"It's, there's a term that comes to mind."},{"startTime":267.421,"endTime":268.671,"body":"It's, fit for purpose."},{"startTime":268.711,"endTime":270.041,"body":"Is it fit for purpose?"},{"startTime":270.091,"endTime":270.441,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":270.591,"endTime":274.641,"body":"Oftentimes people devolve the"},{"startTime":270.591,"endTime":274.641,"body":"conversation into, bugs and escape"},{"startTime":274.681,"endTime":275.961,"body":"defects and things like that."},{"startTime":276.111,"endTime":280.761,"body":"But I always come back to that and say, is"},{"startTime":276.111,"endTime":280.761,"body":"the customer agreeing that this is fit for"},{"startTime":280.761,"endTime":282.951,"body":"purpose as a, as a release by that day?"},{"startTime":283.101,"endTime":284.481,"body":"If they are, then great, you've met it."},{"startTime":284.631,"endTime":289.791,"body":"But trying to do that arbitrarily, just"},{"startTime":284.631,"endTime":289.791,"body":"literally just taking a random date"},{"startTime":289.861,"endTime":291.701,"body":"on a calendar and say, on this date."},{"startTime":291.851,"endTime":292.541,"body":"We'll have a release."},{"startTime":292.691,"endTime":293.731,"body":"You're not going to meet that."},{"startTime":293.791,"endTime":296.261,"body":"And that's going to contribute"},{"startTime":293.791,"endTime":296.261,"body":"to what you started with, which"},{"startTime":296.261,"endTime":297.591,"body":"is lack of predictability."},{"startTime":297.601,"endTime":299.791,"body":"All that's going to happen is"},{"startTime":297.601,"endTime":299.791,"body":"that Executive is going to keep"},{"startTime":299.791,"endTime":302.891,"body":"getting disappointed and say, you"},{"startTime":299.791,"endTime":302.891,"body":"keep missing deadlines, right?"},{"startTime":303.151,"endTime":306.681,"body":"Because those deadlines are"},{"startTime":303.151,"endTime":306.681,"body":"not grounded in anything."},{"startTime":306.851,"endTime":307.061,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":307.281,"endTime":308.261,"body":"They're completely random."},{"startTime":308.411,"endTime":310.661,"body":"You know, the interesting part about"},{"startTime":308.411,"endTime":310.661,"body":"this is that, when you're talking"},{"startTime":310.661,"endTime":314.171,"body":"about things that lead to lack, lack"},{"startTime":310.661,"endTime":314.171,"body":"of predictability, what I'm hearing"},{"startTime":314.221,"endTime":317.321,"body":"is lack of a strong product presence."},{"startTime":317.396,"endTime":322.326,"body":"I think there's a lot of people that are"},{"startTime":317.396,"endTime":322.326,"body":"trying to do this without, without asking"},{"startTime":322.476,"endTime":327.886,"body":"more from the business, more meaning,"},{"startTime":322.476,"endTime":327.886,"body":"good, solid product management practices."},{"startTime":328.036,"endTime":330.166,"body":"From the business, I don't know"},{"startTime":328.036,"endTime":330.166,"body":"if you've ever been on a team."},{"startTime":330.196,"endTime":334.346,"body":"I have been on a team where like you"},{"startTime":330.196,"endTime":334.346,"body":"have like a scrum master and you have a"},{"startTime":334.346,"endTime":338.576,"body":"bunch of developers and they don't have"},{"startTime":334.346,"endTime":338.576,"body":"a product manager or product owner coming"},{"startTime":338.576,"endTime":341.456,"body":"to their reviews and they're trying"},{"startTime":338.576,"endTime":341.456,"body":"to do the best they can or whatever."},{"startTime":341.531,"endTime":343.631,"body":"They're not set up with"},{"startTime":341.531,"endTime":343.631,"body":"all the correct pieces."},{"startTime":343.781,"endTime":346.111,"body":"And they're not set up"},{"startTime":343.781,"endTime":346.111,"body":"for success basically."},{"startTime":346.261,"endTime":350.501,"body":"And, I imagine the executives that they're"},{"startTime":346.261,"endTime":350.501,"body":"going to having a frustration to say,"},{"startTime":350.501,"endTime":354.351,"body":"I don't quite understand how this stuff"},{"startTime":350.501,"endTime":354.351,"body":"gets done because all the product stuff is"},{"startTime":354.361,"endTime":358.551,"body":"missing from those teams, I got to imagine"},{"startTime":354.361,"endTime":358.551,"body":"that that there's an element of this in"},{"startTime":358.551,"endTime":362.971,"body":"play with companies like that Absolutely,"},{"startTime":358.551,"endTime":362.971,"body":"and I have been on several projects like"},{"startTime":362.971,"endTime":368.026,"body":"that where there's there's no product"},{"startTime":362.971,"endTime":368.026,"body":"presence but also, you know by definition"},{"startTime":368.036,"endTime":371.896,"body":"therefore, there's really not a whole"},{"startTime":368.036,"endTime":371.896,"body":"lot of customer feedback there, right?"},{"startTime":372.176,"endTime":376.426,"body":"And not just about Having something"},{"startTime":372.176,"endTime":376.426,"body":"tangible that you want feedback on."},{"startTime":376.436,"endTime":381.396,"body":"It's just even, even the, the actual needs"},{"startTime":376.436,"endTime":381.396,"body":"upfront, nobody does all the vetting."},{"startTime":381.546,"endTime":384.106,"body":"Nobody actually talks to"},{"startTime":381.546,"endTime":384.106,"body":"the customers necessarily."},{"startTime":384.106,"endTime":384.926,"body":"There's a lot of this."},{"startTime":385.076,"endTime":388.586,"body":"Assumption based building going"},{"startTime":385.076,"endTime":388.586,"body":"on, maybe sales comes in and"},{"startTime":388.586,"endTime":389.766,"body":"says, this is what's needed."},{"startTime":389.816,"endTime":390.766,"body":"Trust me, right?"},{"startTime":390.886,"endTime":392.226,"body":"And then the teams go build that."},{"startTime":392.376,"endTime":396.436,"body":"And even if you miraculously hit"},{"startTime":392.376,"endTime":396.436,"body":"that, that, that mythical date that"},{"startTime":396.456,"endTime":399.756,"body":"somebody came out with, the minute"},{"startTime":396.456,"endTime":399.756,"body":"the customer sees it, the reaction"},{"startTime":399.756,"endTime":401.346,"body":"usually is not very positive."},{"startTime":401.496,"endTime":404.896,"body":"And that's when the executive then"},{"startTime":401.496,"endTime":404.896,"body":"comes back and says, what are you doing?"},{"startTime":404.896,"endTime":405.126,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":405.376,"endTime":406.486,"body":"Nobody wants this."},{"startTime":406.636,"endTime":408.006,"body":"To me, a lot of that."},{"startTime":408.311,"endTime":411.821,"body":"In fact, most of that is"},{"startTime":408.311,"endTime":411.821,"body":"avoidable up front, right?"},{"startTime":411.971,"endTime":413.341,"body":"At least that's my opinion."},{"startTime":413.341,"endTime":414.571,"body":"Most of that is avoidable."},{"startTime":414.801,"endTime":418.766,"body":"If you were just to line up the program"},{"startTime":414.801,"endTime":418.766,"body":"in a way that You know, make sense."},{"startTime":418.866,"endTime":423.296,"body":"So set yourself up for success by"},{"startTime":418.866,"endTime":423.296,"body":"having product presence, making"},{"startTime":423.296,"endTime":426.876,"body":"sure that customers engaged from"},{"startTime":423.296,"endTime":426.876,"body":"the beginning and throughout."},{"startTime":427.001,"endTime":432.151,"body":"and then not necessarily commit to dates"},{"startTime":427.001,"endTime":432.151,"body":"right when you start the project, but"},{"startTime":432.301,"endTime":436.661,"body":"you know, iterate on it for a bit and"},{"startTime":432.301,"endTime":436.661,"body":"then see how you're doing based on that."},{"startTime":436.721,"endTime":439.831,"body":"You could come out with perhaps"},{"startTime":436.721,"endTime":439.831,"body":"a date range that says this"},{"startTime":439.891,"endTime":441.341,"body":"is where we can come up with."},{"startTime":441.491,"endTime":444.671,"body":"You know, release one if you want"},{"startTime":441.491,"endTime":444.671,"body":"to go down the path of MVP, you can"},{"startTime":444.671,"endTime":446.621,"body":"do that, but Um, release one, 1."},{"startTime":446.621,"endTime":450.081,"body":"1, whatever it is, you can say, that's"},{"startTime":446.621,"endTime":450.081,"body":"when we're going to come out with it."},{"startTime":450.156,"endTime":452.026,"body":"You were talking about the, the window."},{"startTime":452.176,"endTime":452.486,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":452.636,"endTime":455.756,"body":"Like I can always give a"},{"startTime":452.636,"endTime":455.756,"body":"window from the backlog."},{"startTime":455.906,"endTime":459.886,"body":"Like, I, this is, the more we talk"},{"startTime":455.906,"endTime":459.886,"body":"about this, the, the more kind of,"},{"startTime":460.036,"endTime":462.486,"body":"I was going to say silly, silly"},{"startTime":460.036,"endTime":462.486,"body":"is probably not the right word."},{"startTime":462.486,"endTime":463.166,"body":"Like ludicrous."},{"startTime":463.166,"endTime":465.966,"body":"That's probably, that's probably"},{"startTime":463.166,"endTime":465.966,"body":"like a silly is not the right word."},{"startTime":465.966,"endTime":467.426,"body":"Like ludicrous is probably even worse."},{"startTime":467.456,"endTime":470.356,"body":"Like the, the more we talk"},{"startTime":467.456,"endTime":470.356,"body":"about this, the more, um."},{"startTime":470.506,"endTime":470.696,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":470.696,"endTime":471.296,"body":"Asinine."},{"startTime":471.296,"endTime":471.706,"body":"Asinine."},{"startTime":471.706,"endTime":472.606,"body":"We're not getting better."},{"startTime":472.606,"endTime":474.056,"body":"Like the words are not getting better."},{"startTime":474.206,"endTime":477.721,"body":"Like the, the, the, the sillier it"},{"startTime":474.206,"endTime":477.721,"body":"gets because like, I keep my backlog"},{"startTime":477.721,"endTime":481.521,"body":"between two and three sprints ahead"},{"startTime":477.721,"endTime":481.521,"body":"of the team, like with refined work."},{"startTime":481.791,"endTime":483.791,"body":"So I can go into my backlog"},{"startTime":481.791,"endTime":483.791,"body":"at any point in time."},{"startTime":483.961,"endTime":487.171,"body":"And we're, we do two weeks sprints,"},{"startTime":483.961,"endTime":487.171,"body":"we're six weeks out, right?"},{"startTime":487.321,"endTime":488.611,"body":"One month to six weeks out."},{"startTime":488.761,"endTime":493.286,"body":"And I am vetting things that are"},{"startTime":488.761,"endTime":493.286,"body":"coming through the intake process."},{"startTime":493.436,"endTime":498.686,"body":"Maybe six weeks in front of that or"},{"startTime":493.436,"endTime":498.686,"body":"more potentially, so I'm, I'm 12 weeks."},{"startTime":498.686,"endTime":500.416,"body":"I'm a quarter ahead basically."},{"startTime":500.566,"endTime":503.526,"body":"So saying that you can't saying"},{"startTime":500.566,"endTime":503.526,"body":"that you don't have predictability."},{"startTime":503.676,"endTime":507.196,"body":"I just think I translate this into"},{"startTime":503.676,"endTime":507.196,"body":"my head of, you just don't have"},{"startTime":507.196,"endTime":510.511,"body":"good product practices because even"},{"startTime":507.196,"endTime":510.511,"body":"if you didn't have solid product."},{"startTime":510.806,"endTime":515.746,"body":"In your organization, you probably still"},{"startTime":510.806,"endTime":515.746,"body":"could as a team rally around this two"},{"startTime":515.746,"endTime":518.996,"body":"to three sprints ahead in the backlog"},{"startTime":515.746,"endTime":518.996,"body":"and then you could be telling people"},{"startTime":518.996,"endTime":523.596,"body":"you'd be communicating windows of when"},{"startTime":518.996,"endTime":523.596,"body":"we'll land things to your stakeholders,"},{"startTime":523.746,"endTime":526.326,"body":"within, two sprints or so of each other."},{"startTime":526.626,"endTime":528.816,"body":"So you're within a month,"},{"startTime":526.626,"endTime":528.816,"body":"you're giving deadlines."},{"startTime":528.846,"endTime":531.636,"body":"Basically, you're giving them"},{"startTime":528.846,"endTime":531.636,"body":"delivery deadlines, basically."},{"startTime":531.786,"endTime":534.246,"body":"You know, communicating quote deadlines."},{"startTime":534.396,"endTime":537.106,"body":"But in reality you're just telling"},{"startTime":534.396,"endTime":537.106,"body":"them like, Hey, our sprints end"},{"startTime":537.106,"endTime":541.846,"body":"on Thursday and we'll have it"},{"startTime":537.106,"endTime":541.846,"body":"to you four Thursdays from now."},{"startTime":542.006,"endTime":545.086,"body":"Somewhere between four Thursdays"},{"startTime":542.006,"endTime":545.086,"body":"from now and six Thursdays from now."},{"startTime":545.236,"endTime":548.466,"body":"So just go find what those"},{"startTime":545.236,"endTime":548.466,"body":"dates are on the calendar and"},{"startTime":548.466,"endTime":550.016,"body":"just give them those dates."},{"startTime":550.066,"endTime":551.466,"body":"Like, that's pretty easy."},{"startTime":551.616,"endTime":552.906,"body":"And then it, it should be, right?"},{"startTime":552.906,"endTime":553.086,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":553.086,"endTime":553.896,"body":"It should be easy."},{"startTime":553.901,"endTime":555.996,"body":"And, and then the first, the"},{"startTime":553.901,"endTime":555.996,"body":"first indication that you're"},{"startTime":555.996,"endTime":556.896,"body":"gonna miss those dates."},{"startTime":557.196,"endTime":559.206,"body":"You do the same thing a project"},{"startTime":557.196,"endTime":559.206,"body":"manager would do, and you"},{"startTime":559.206,"endTime":560.286,"body":"just communicate with them."},{"startTime":560.286,"endTime":563.336,"body":"They're like, Hey, the date slipped,"},{"startTime":560.286,"endTime":563.336,"body":"and these are the reasons, and this"},{"startTime":563.336,"endTime":566.486,"body":"is what we're doing, and this is what"},{"startTime":563.336,"endTime":566.486,"body":"you're gonna get or not get, or whatever."},{"startTime":566.486,"endTime":569.006,"body":"And you know, that's, I don't"},{"startTime":566.486,"endTime":569.006,"body":"understand why it's a big thing."},{"startTime":569.106,"endTime":569.766,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":569.826,"endTime":570.956,"body":"I don't understand what,"},{"startTime":569.826,"endTime":570.956,"body":"it's not being done."},{"startTime":571.116,"endTime":571.896,"body":"It's not being done."},{"startTime":571.896,"endTime":572.166,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":572.166,"endTime":573.906,"body":"That's probably the main reason, really."},{"startTime":574.236,"endTime":574.326,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":574.326,"endTime":574.596,"body":"It's, yeah."},{"startTime":574.596,"endTime":574.866,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":574.866,"endTime":577.886,"body":"It's probably not being done or"},{"startTime":574.866,"endTime":577.886,"body":"they, their product function at"},{"startTime":577.886,"endTime":581.316,"body":"those organizations is very, very"},{"startTime":577.886,"endTime":581.316,"body":"immature or something like that."},{"startTime":581.336,"endTime":582.136,"body":"That's probably what this is."},{"startTime":582.286,"endTime":582.646,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":582.686,"endTime":582.976,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":583.126,"endTime":586.996,"body":"The other thing that I hear a lot with,"},{"startTime":583.126,"endTime":586.996,"body":"resistance to agile is that, that,"},{"startTime":587.271,"endTime":589.306,"body":"you don't, agile has no documentation."},{"startTime":589.511,"endTime":590.681,"body":"That's the other thing about."},{"startTime":590.841,"endTime":593.311,"body":"That I have directly gotten"},{"startTime":590.841,"endTime":593.311,"body":"pushback in this category is"},{"startTime":593.311,"endTime":594.231,"body":"like, Oh, you want to be agile?"},{"startTime":594.421,"endTime":596.401,"body":"That just basically means"},{"startTime":594.421,"endTime":596.401,"body":"you don't write things down."},{"startTime":596.551,"endTime":596.861,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":596.861,"endTime":600.321,"body":"And that's again, another one of those"},{"startTime":596.861,"endTime":600.321,"body":"classic, misinterpretations, right?"},{"startTime":600.321,"endTime":605.021,"body":"Where people say they misinterpret,"},{"startTime":600.321,"endTime":605.021,"body":"the ethos of, A working software"},{"startTime":605.021,"endTime":606.551,"body":"or comprehensive documentation."},{"startTime":606.611,"endTime":606.821,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":606.941,"endTime":610.261,"body":"They can read that quickly and"},{"startTime":606.941,"endTime":610.261,"body":"say you focus on delivering"},{"startTime":610.261,"endTime":611.821,"body":"stuff, but no documentation."},{"startTime":611.821,"endTime":611.941,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":612.091,"endTime":613.201,"body":", it's not what it says."},{"startTime":613.231,"endTime":613.471,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":613.471,"endTime":615.361,"body":"If they read it slowly,"},{"startTime":613.471,"endTime":615.361,"body":"it's only four words."},{"startTime":615.511,"endTime":619.291,"body":"If they read, if they read it slowly,"},{"startTime":615.511,"endTime":619.291,"body":"it says comprehensive documentation."},{"startTime":619.531,"endTime":621.571,"body":"And the concept of just, good enough."},{"startTime":621.721,"endTime":622.981,"body":"You need documentation."},{"startTime":623.091,"endTime":624.051,"body":"There's no denying that."},{"startTime":624.341,"endTime":628.151,"body":"But you don't necessarily need reams"},{"startTime":624.341,"endTime":628.151,"body":"and reams and reams of documentation,"},{"startTime":628.301,"endTime":633.901,"body":"as was the case in, years past, where"},{"startTime":628.301,"endTime":633.901,"body":"documentation actually was a deliverable."},{"startTime":634.051,"endTime":637.601,"body":"Unless it was met as a deliverable,"},{"startTime":634.051,"endTime":637.601,"body":"the project wasn't successful."},{"startTime":637.601,"endTime":640.111,"body":"Here, you need just enough documentation."},{"startTime":640.261,"endTime":644.621,"body":"To use the product, to be able to support"},{"startTime":640.261,"endTime":644.621,"body":"it, to be able to use it, et cetera."},{"startTime":644.941,"endTime":647.071,"body":"If you have just enough,"},{"startTime":644.941,"endTime":647.071,"body":"then that's good enough."},{"startTime":647.131,"endTime":649.671,"body":"And now, now people say,"},{"startTime":647.131,"endTime":649.671,"body":"Oh, what does that mean?"},{"startTime":649.681,"endTime":650.571,"body":"Just enough, right?"},{"startTime":650.721,"endTime":656.051,"body":"It can mean literally, it can mean"},{"startTime":650.721,"endTime":656.051,"body":"anything from, notes that are legible,"},{"startTime":656.091,"endTime":659.551,"body":"understandable, it doesn't have to be"},{"startTime":656.091,"endTime":659.551,"body":"formatted and it doesn't have to be"},{"startTime":659.551,"endTime":663.331,"body":"done that way unless the customer is"},{"startTime":659.551,"endTime":663.331,"body":"asking for that, they're asking for it."},{"startTime":663.351,"endTime":663.541,"body":"Then fine."},{"startTime":663.691,"endTime":668.281,"body":"But people  misunderstand the point that"},{"startTime":663.691,"endTime":668.281,"body":"Agile does not mean zero documentation."},{"startTime":668.451,"endTime":670.981,"body":"It means just enough documentation, right?"},{"startTime":671.091,"endTime":674.551,"body":"And maybe I think that that principle"},{"startTime":671.091,"endTime":674.551,"body":"could be reworded, to say that."},{"startTime":674.731,"endTime":675.861,"body":"Just in time."},{"startTime":676.011,"endTime":680.511,"body":"Yeah, just in time or, or, just enough,"},{"startTime":676.011,"endTime":680.511,"body":"but you don't need to go crazy over it."},{"startTime":680.636,"endTime":682.966,"body":"I think everybody who might be"},{"startTime":680.636,"endTime":682.966,"body":"listening to this podcast is going to"},{"startTime":682.966,"endTime":684.986,"body":"be like, yeah, documentation, whatever."},{"startTime":684.986,"endTime":687.776,"body":"Everyone knows like, yes, we document,"},{"startTime":684.986,"endTime":687.776,"body":"but we're not going to hold the whole"},{"startTime":687.836,"endTime":692.306,"body":"quote project up on the documentation"},{"startTime":687.836,"endTime":692.306,"body":"being done, which I remember"},{"startTime":692.306,"endTime":694.096,"body":"like the early days of my career."},{"startTime":694.346,"endTime":696.286,"body":"I remember like, oh,"},{"startTime":694.346,"endTime":696.286,"body":"documentation is not done."},{"startTime":696.286,"endTime":697.106,"body":"We can't close."},{"startTime":697.256,"endTime":700.346,"body":"You know, basically close the,"},{"startTime":697.256,"endTime":700.346,"body":"the financials or whatever."},{"startTime":700.346,"endTime":703.556,"body":"We can't, can't book the money"},{"startTime":700.346,"endTime":703.556,"body":"'cause we're waiting on documentation"},{"startTime":703.556,"endTime":705.956,"body":"or you know, we just, everyone"},{"startTime":703.556,"endTime":705.956,"body":"is like, that's ludicrous."},{"startTime":706.236,"endTime":707.016,"body":"we're not gonna do that."},{"startTime":707.146,"endTime":712.026,"body":"But some people like the formality"},{"startTime":707.146,"endTime":712.026,"body":"of documentation because if you have"},{"startTime":712.026,"endTime":715.566,"body":"documentation for like, I think in the"},{"startTime":712.026,"endTime":715.566,"body":"old days with like handoffs and stuff"},{"startTime":715.566,"endTime":719.376,"body":"like that, I think in the old days,"},{"startTime":715.566,"endTime":719.376,"body":"where in the handoff you had something,"},{"startTime":719.586,"endTime":720.606,"body":"and maybe this goes back to like."},{"startTime":720.756,"endTime":723.706,"body":"When software was actually in"},{"startTime":720.756,"endTime":723.706,"body":"packages that that kind of thing,"},{"startTime":723.856,"endTime":727.166,"body":"you had something to hand over to"},{"startTime":723.856,"endTime":727.166,"body":"somebody, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":727.166,"endTime":731.276,"body":"You had like a comprehensive user"},{"startTime":727.166,"endTime":731.276,"body":"guide that detailed all the functions"},{"startTime":731.276,"endTime":733.736,"body":"of the software or something like"},{"startTime":731.276,"endTime":733.736,"body":"that I think of like delivering an"},{"startTime":733.736,"endTime":737.426,"body":"API without the documentation like"},{"startTime":733.736,"endTime":737.426,"body":"you can't deliver an API without the"},{"startTime":737.426,"endTime":740.886,"body":"documentation So some documentation"},{"startTime":737.426,"endTime":740.886,"body":"is required, but I can deliver you"},{"startTime":740.986,"endTime":744.601,"body":"one single endpoint to the API with"},{"startTime":740.986,"endTime":744.601,"body":"documentation for that little endpoint."},{"startTime":744.841,"endTime":748.021,"body":"So you could argue like, well,"},{"startTime":744.841,"endTime":748.021,"body":"that's, it's so tiny because it's"},{"startTime":748.081,"endTime":750.661,"body":"little, but the documentation"},{"startTime":748.081,"endTime":750.661,"body":"has been done at the same time."},{"startTime":750.671,"endTime":753.811,"body":"Like that would be an example of"},{"startTime":750.671,"endTime":753.811,"body":"where you, you would do documentation"},{"startTime":753.821,"endTime":755.721,"body":"and the software together, right?"},{"startTime":755.791,"endTime":757.511,"body":"Yeah, that's a great point."},{"startTime":757.811,"endTime":761.561,"body":"That's exactly what I had in mind"},{"startTime":757.811,"endTime":761.561,"body":"when I said, just enough, right?"},{"startTime":761.711,"endTime":765.211,"body":"So if it's just one endpoint, then"},{"startTime":761.711,"endTime":765.211,"body":"that documentation, that little piece"},{"startTime":765.211,"endTime":768.921,"body":"of documentation that you deliver"},{"startTime":765.211,"endTime":768.921,"body":"covers that endpoint and that's enough."},{"startTime":769.071,"endTime":771.851,"body":"And you just add to it and"},{"startTime":769.071,"endTime":771.851,"body":"iterate over time, right?"},{"startTime":771.891,"endTime":774.441,"body":"So the entire, the entire"},{"startTime":771.891,"endTime":774.441,"body":"payload, for instance, doesn't"},{"startTime":774.481,"endTime":777.031,"body":"have to be completely documented."},{"startTime":777.181,"endTime":780.161,"body":"Especially if the documentation"},{"startTime":777.181,"endTime":780.161,"body":"happens after the fact."},{"startTime":780.311,"endTime":781.871,"body":"Which used to be the case, right?"},{"startTime":781.871,"endTime":784.586,"body":"In the old days because people, to your"},{"startTime":781.871,"endTime":784.586,"body":"point, people are looking to close the"},{"startTime":784.586,"endTime":788.976,"body":"project and that formal step of closing"},{"startTime":784.586,"endTime":788.976,"body":"the project was called administrative"},{"startTime":789.016,"endTime":791.086,"body":"closure, project management speak."},{"startTime":791.336,"endTime":793.936,"body":"And, until that happened,"},{"startTime":791.336,"endTime":793.936,"body":"money wouldn't change hands."},{"startTime":793.946,"endTime":797.546,"body":"So there'd be a lot of pressure on"},{"startTime":793.946,"endTime":797.546,"body":"people to complete the documentation."},{"startTime":797.806,"endTime":800.726,"body":"And again, the quality, et cetera,"},{"startTime":797.806,"endTime":800.726,"body":"was pretty dubious, but they"},{"startTime":800.726,"endTime":804.586,"body":"completed it just to get that checkbox"},{"startTime":800.726,"endTime":804.586,"body":"and then say, pay us, basically."},{"startTime":804.736,"endTime":805.586,"body":"So, yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":805.586,"endTime":809.906,"body":"I think this is a great example of how"},{"startTime":805.586,"endTime":809.906,"body":"you can deliver just enough documentation."},{"startTime":810.056,"endTime":811.346,"body":"If you keep iterating on it."},{"startTime":811.496,"endTime":813.296,"body":"And that's, that's all that's needed."},{"startTime":813.626,"endTime":815.206,"body":"It's the endpoint that's usable."},{"startTime":815.226,"endTime":815.536,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":815.596,"endTime":815.786,"body":"Perfect."},{"startTime":816.066,"endTime":817.276,"body":"You've got, you've met your mission."},{"startTime":817.616,"endTime":821.266,"body":"Oh man, I remember, I remember"},{"startTime":817.616,"endTime":821.266,"body":"they, they would try to roll on a"},{"startTime":821.266,"endTime":824.956,"body":"documentation person for a period of"},{"startTime":821.266,"endTime":824.956,"body":"time and then try to roll them off"},{"startTime":825.006,"endTime":826.736,"body":"after the, they've delivered whatever."},{"startTime":826.966,"endTime":830.276,"body":"Like, the thinking was they, they,"},{"startTime":826.966,"endTime":830.276,"body":"the documentation's been delivered,"},{"startTime":830.276,"endTime":831.936,"body":"we never need to change it ever again."},{"startTime":832.166,"endTime":834.536,"body":"Kind of like the software's been"},{"startTime":832.166,"endTime":834.536,"body":"delivered, we can fire the whole"},{"startTime":834.536,"endTime":836.666,"body":"team now because it's, we'll"},{"startTime":834.536,"endTime":836.666,"body":"never have to change it again."},{"startTime":836.666,"endTime":837.136,"body":"Which is just..."},{"startTime":837.286,"endTime":841.756,"body":"A ludicrous way of thinking but that but"},{"startTime":837.286,"endTime":841.756,"body":"but again the actual documentation aside,"},{"startTime":841.966,"endTime":847.266,"body":"the formal delivery of it, and those"},{"startTime":841.966,"endTime":847.266,"body":"handoff events where you had sign off, and"},{"startTime":847.266,"endTime":851.096,"body":"you had like, Hey, we hit this milestone,"},{"startTime":847.266,"endTime":851.096,"body":"and then the project manager communicated"},{"startTime":851.096,"endTime":856.306,"body":"that out to everyone, and they, they"},{"startTime":851.096,"endTime":856.306,"body":"sent, forms out in triplicate and, climb"},{"startTime":856.306,"endTime":859.516,"body":"from the highest hills and the hills were"},{"startTime":856.306,"endTime":859.516,"body":"alive with the sound of music or whatever,"},{"startTime":859.666,"endTime":864.566,"body":"like that, that, that broadcasting of"},{"startTime":859.666,"endTime":864.566,"body":"a milestone being completed, I think"},{"startTime":864.651,"endTime":866.511,"body":"that is what, certain executives chose."},{"startTime":866.661,"endTime":870.361,"body":"It's ceremonial to them, because"},{"startTime":866.661,"endTime":870.361,"body":"we, in the, again, in the battle"},{"startTime":870.361,"endTime":871.971,"body":"days, I think they were battle days."},{"startTime":872.271,"endTime":876.241,"body":"Um, there would be phase gate reviews"},{"startTime":872.271,"endTime":876.241,"body":"with these executives with all the"},{"startTime":876.261,"endTime":877.741,"body":"other around the boardroom table."},{"startTime":877.891,"endTime":881.691,"body":"And, the project manager would present,"},{"startTime":877.891,"endTime":881.691,"body":"what's being met for that phase."},{"startTime":881.841,"endTime":884.861,"body":"And then there'd be grilled,"},{"startTime":881.841,"endTime":884.861,"body":"to be Q and a, all of that"},{"startTime":884.861,"endTime":887.351,"body":"formality is missing now, right?"},{"startTime":887.391,"endTime":889.571,"body":"Because we're delivering frequently."},{"startTime":889.571,"endTime":889.586,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":889.736,"endTime":894.516,"body":"We're delivering on a cadence and we"},{"startTime":889.736,"endTime":894.516,"body":"don't necessarily have those phase"},{"startTime":894.536,"endTime":896.356,"body":"gate approval processes anymore."},{"startTime":896.506,"endTime":899.386,"body":"So we don't have a project"},{"startTime":896.506,"endTime":899.386,"body":"manager or anybody really"},{"startTime":899.546,"endTime":900.976,"body":"announcing those off the rooftops."},{"startTime":901.126,"endTime":901.346,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":901.346,"endTime":903.726,"body":"And that, that is something"},{"startTime":901.346,"endTime":903.726,"body":"that people miss perhaps."},{"startTime":903.876,"endTime":907.156,"body":"I was going to say also, they, they,"},{"startTime":903.876,"endTime":907.156,"body":"they don't, all the people that"},{"startTime":907.156,"endTime":910.346,"body":"used to be in the room, at like a"},{"startTime":907.156,"endTime":910.346,"body":"management level, like now they don't"},{"startTime":910.346,"endTime":914.126,"body":"have the, they don't have the forum"},{"startTime":910.346,"endTime":914.126,"body":"anymore to interact with the product."},{"startTime":914.276,"endTime":918.061,"body":"You know, I mean, this is turning out to"},{"startTime":914.276,"endTime":918.061,"body":"be an anti product management podcast."},{"startTime":918.061,"endTime":920.811,"body":"But like, again, like if your"},{"startTime":918.061,"endTime":920.811,"body":"product people are not getting"},{"startTime":920.811,"endTime":922.071,"body":"the right people in the room."},{"startTime":922.221,"endTime":925.676,"body":"For the demos, I guess I can put scrum"},{"startTime":922.221,"endTime":925.676,"body":"masters feet to the fire on this as"},{"startTime":925.676,"endTime":928.836,"body":"well a little bit like if you, if you"},{"startTime":925.676,"endTime":928.836,"body":"don't have the right stakeholders in the"},{"startTime":928.836,"endTime":931.986,"body":"room and you're not doing a great job"},{"startTime":928.836,"endTime":931.986,"body":"at stakeholder management, that's when"},{"startTime":931.986,"endTime":937.681,"body":"you run foul of this issue whoever has"},{"startTime":931.986,"endTime":937.681,"body":"influence over the product, you need"},{"startTime":937.681,"endTime":942.411,"body":"to be ahead of that organizationally"},{"startTime":937.681,"endTime":942.411,"body":"and and let them have some kind of form"},{"startTime":942.411,"endTime":944.101,"body":"where those people have a say, you know?"},{"startTime":944.251,"endTime":945.671,"body":"Yeah, no, that's absolutely right."},{"startTime":945.721,"endTime":949.296,"body":"And I think if you were to kind of"},{"startTime":945.721,"endTime":949.296,"body":"say, Hey, How do we supplement or"},{"startTime":949.536,"endTime":954.546,"body":"supplant, that need of formality"},{"startTime":949.536,"endTime":954.546,"body":"now for working in an agile way?"},{"startTime":954.696,"endTime":959.386,"body":"Maybe, maybe I can suggest, something"},{"startTime":954.696,"endTime":959.386,"body":"I've seen that works reasonably well"},{"startTime":959.396,"endTime":963.756,"body":"here, which is a change management"},{"startTime":959.396,"endTime":963.756,"body":"function where somebody comes in They"},{"startTime":963.756,"endTime":969.586,"body":"will do the announcing of, here's what's"},{"startTime":963.756,"endTime":969.586,"body":"coming, 90 days out, 30 days out, etc."},{"startTime":969.736,"endTime":973.306,"body":"Here's what's happened, right, the"},{"startTime":969.736,"endTime":973.306,"body":"day after it was released in the wild."},{"startTime":973.456,"endTime":976.166,"body":"And then follow up thereafter,"},{"startTime":973.456,"endTime":976.166,"body":"right, how many, what the"},{"startTime":976.166,"endTime":978.116,"body":"adoption rate was like, etc., etc."},{"startTime":978.161,"endTime":983.321,"body":"That, that whole communication, that"},{"startTime":978.161,"endTime":983.321,"body":"happens over time could be really"},{"startTime":983.321,"endTime":988.231,"body":"that, that pacifier that kind of"},{"startTime":983.321,"endTime":988.231,"body":"substitutes in the formality, but"},{"startTime":988.231,"endTime":989.781,"body":"it's not a point in time event."},{"startTime":989.931,"endTime":993.831,"body":"It's multiple events over multiple"},{"startTime":989.931,"endTime":993.831,"body":"points in time, under the guise"},{"startTime":993.831,"endTime":996.671,"body":"of change management, especially"},{"startTime":993.831,"endTime":996.671,"body":"if you're in a regulated industry."},{"startTime":996.821,"endTime":1000.231,"body":"The other thing that, I'm going"},{"startTime":996.821,"endTime":1000.231,"body":"to keep us trucking along."},{"startTime":1000.381,"endTime":1002.541,"body":"The other thing about,"},{"startTime":1000.381,"endTime":1002.541,"body":"lack of documentation."},{"startTime":1002.691,"endTime":1003.691,"body":"Lack of formality."},{"startTime":1003.871,"endTime":1004.871,"body":"Basically lack of process."},{"startTime":1004.871,"endTime":1006.781,"body":"That's, that's sort of what"},{"startTime":1004.871,"endTime":1006.781,"body":"they're complaining about."},{"startTime":1007.031,"endTime":1011.896,"body":"The other thing along with that is"},{"startTime":1007.031,"endTime":1011.896,"body":"I have heard in my career, a lack of"},{"startTime":1012.116,"endTime":1015.946,"body":"longterm planning, for example, that"},{"startTime":1012.116,"endTime":1015.946,"body":"where I threw out earlier where I was"},{"startTime":1015.956,"endTime":1020.296,"body":"like, well, it's a benefit to be in,"},{"startTime":1015.956,"endTime":1020.296,"body":"six weeks, six weeks ahead with my team"},{"startTime":1020.296,"endTime":1022.786,"body":"because I'm wearing two weeks sprints"},{"startTime":1020.296,"endTime":1022.786,"body":"and I can go, two to three sprints."},{"startTime":1023.106,"endTime":1025.476,"body":"And then, and then I'm"},{"startTime":1023.106,"endTime":1025.476,"body":"also doing discovery."},{"startTime":1025.626,"endTime":1027.726,"body":"potentially two to three"},{"startTime":1025.626,"endTime":1027.726,"body":"sprints in front of that."},{"startTime":1027.726,"endTime":1030.806,"body":"So I'm 12 weeks out, but I'm"},{"startTime":1027.726,"endTime":1030.806,"body":"not much further out than that."},{"startTime":1030.956,"endTime":1036.006,"body":"That, so the, pushback, which I do"},{"startTime":1030.956,"endTime":1036.006,"body":"think sometimes is valid here is,"},{"startTime":1036.081,"endTime":1039.961,"body":"you're only thinking tactically and"},{"startTime":1036.081,"endTime":1039.961,"body":"you're not thinking strategically."},{"startTime":1040.036,"endTime":1044.516,"body":"so what, at what point is your agile"},{"startTime":1040.036,"endTime":1044.516,"body":"team taking on the challenges of thinking"},{"startTime":1044.526,"endTime":1047.876,"body":"strategically where the business is going"},{"startTime":1044.526,"endTime":1047.876,"body":"to be three years from now, for example, I"},{"startTime":1047.876,"endTime":1049.996,"body":"mean, I'm not, maybe not even three years."},{"startTime":1049.996,"endTime":1050.736,"body":"Maybe that's too much to ask."},{"startTime":1050.766,"endTime":1054.816,"body":"Maybe, maybe a year from now, let's"},{"startTime":1050.766,"endTime":1054.816,"body":"just talk about a year from now."},{"startTime":1054.966,"endTime":1055.186,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1055.186,"endTime":1059.906,"body":"I think this, this,"},{"startTime":1055.186,"endTime":1059.906,"body":"this podcast on having."},{"startTime":1060.056,"endTime":1061.566,"body":"You know, the strategy, right?"},{"startTime":1061.586,"endTime":1065.126,"body":"Having a strategy that aligns"},{"startTime":1061.586,"endTime":1065.126,"body":"with your vision and your mission"},{"startTime":1065.276,"endTime":1066.616,"body":"and then breaking those down."},{"startTime":1066.616,"endTime":1068.396,"body":"So it's perfectly all right."},{"startTime":1068.396,"endTime":1071.886,"body":"I think I think about the time"},{"startTime":1068.396,"endTime":1071.886,"body":"frame of, let's say, a year to"},{"startTime":1071.926,"endTime":1075.226,"body":"say, well, what are we hoping to"},{"startTime":1071.926,"endTime":1075.226,"body":"achieve in the next fiscal year?"},{"startTime":1075.376,"endTime":1076.876,"body":"That's our strategy, right?"},{"startTime":1076.916,"endTime":1079.936,"body":"And break those down"},{"startTime":1076.916,"endTime":1079.936,"body":"the strategy down into."},{"startTime":1080.086,"endTime":1081.006,"body":"Smaller chunks."},{"startTime":1081.346,"endTime":1084.496,"body":"These chunks could align themselves to"},{"startTime":1081.346,"endTime":1084.496,"body":"maybe the six months or three months."},{"startTime":1084.526,"endTime":1088.666,"body":"And you mentioned that in your"},{"startTime":1084.526,"endTime":1088.666,"body":"planning, you're you're about about 12"},{"startTime":1088.666,"endTime":1090.306,"body":"weeks, which is a quarter out, right?"},{"startTime":1090.456,"endTime":1091.446,"body":"Maybe you can do that."},{"startTime":1091.456,"endTime":1094.336,"body":"Maybe you can have a rolling"},{"startTime":1091.456,"endTime":1094.336,"body":"planning machine, right?"},{"startTime":1094.556,"endTime":1096.436,"body":"That looks forward every three months."},{"startTime":1096.506,"endTime":1101.996,"body":"But all of that is looking at a"},{"startTime":1096.506,"endTime":1101.996,"body":"one year strategy in place, right?"},{"startTime":1102.306,"endTime":1105.746,"body":"Your teams aren't necessarily"},{"startTime":1102.306,"endTime":1105.746,"body":"going to be challenged with that."},{"startTime":1105.776,"endTime":1108.726,"body":"I think that's where your"},{"startTime":1105.776,"endTime":1108.726,"body":"product folks, your product"},{"startTime":1108.746,"endTime":1110.666,"body":"management, folks will need to."},{"startTime":1110.906,"endTime":1116.041,"body":"Kind of hang their, their approach on that"},{"startTime":1110.906,"endTime":1116.041,"body":"strategy and then communicate it down,"},{"startTime":1116.151,"endTime":1118.181,"body":"obviously, with the teams and so forth."},{"startTime":1118.521,"endTime":1121.631,"body":"So it doesn't mean that there"},{"startTime":1118.521,"endTime":1121.631,"body":"is no long term plan, though"},{"startTime":1121.651,"endTime":1122.841,"body":"the long term plan gets set."},{"startTime":1122.991,"endTime":1125.781,"body":"At the at the, unfortunately,"},{"startTime":1122.991,"endTime":1125.781,"body":"we're still dealing with the"},{"startTime":1125.801,"endTime":1127.901,"body":"annual budgeting cycle, right?"},{"startTime":1128.151,"endTime":1129.271,"body":"The tyrannies of that."},{"startTime":1129.421,"endTime":1132.801,"body":"So, okay, while we're in that,"},{"startTime":1129.421,"endTime":1132.801,"body":"in that mode, why don't we look"},{"startTime":1132.801,"endTime":1134.811,"body":"at what do we have money to do?"},{"startTime":1134.831,"endTime":1136.081,"body":"What are we trying to do for this?"},{"startTime":1136.281,"endTime":1138.886,"body":"This much money that we've"},{"startTime":1136.281,"endTime":1138.886,"body":"got this budget, and then how"},{"startTime":1138.886,"endTime":1140.766,"body":"do we break that down into?"},{"startTime":1140.916,"endTime":1142.346,"body":"Perhaps smaller chunks."},{"startTime":1142.396,"endTime":1148.336,"body":"Let's say, we can plan in, let's say, four"},{"startTime":1142.396,"endTime":1148.336,"body":"increments that span that fiscal year."},{"startTime":1148.486,"endTime":1153.096,"body":"Now, each of those increments align"},{"startTime":1148.486,"endTime":1153.096,"body":"perfectly fine with the way you're"},{"startTime":1153.136,"endTime":1154.786,"body":"describing the planning to work."},{"startTime":1154.786,"endTime":1155.066,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1155.096,"endTime":1155.116,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1155.266,"endTime":1160.096,"body":"With having seeded backlog and then doing"},{"startTime":1155.266,"endTime":1160.096,"body":"the discovery that much further out, etc."},{"startTime":1160.246,"endTime":1161.466,"body":"So you could still have that."},{"startTime":1161.486,"endTime":1163.061,"body":"What you cannot have is the, Okay."},{"startTime":1163.211,"endTime":1167.541,"body":"The planning of old was long term"},{"startTime":1163.211,"endTime":1167.541,"body":"planning was 10 years out, right?"},{"startTime":1167.691,"endTime":1169.491,"body":"This is the GEs of the world, right?"},{"startTime":1169.521,"endTime":1173.461,"body":"That's what they were doing before, and"},{"startTime":1169.521,"endTime":1173.461,"body":"then medium term planning was 5 years out."},{"startTime":1173.511,"endTime":1175.581,"body":"And short term planning"},{"startTime":1173.511,"endTime":1175.581,"body":"was 1 to 3 years out."},{"startTime":1175.731,"endTime":1179.071,"body":"I think all of that has shrunk"},{"startTime":1175.731,"endTime":1179.071,"body":"dramatically over the last few years."},{"startTime":1179.401,"endTime":1180.811,"body":"There is no long term planning."},{"startTime":1180.961,"endTime":1182.951,"body":"There is no long term planning whatsoever."},{"startTime":1183.031,"endTime":1184.851,"body":"Because, what does that even mean?"},{"startTime":1185.056,"endTime":1186.126,"body":"Long term planning, right?"},{"startTime":1186.276,"endTime":1190.406,"body":"There is only the annual planning"},{"startTime":1186.276,"endTime":1190.406,"body":"because, things change all the time."},{"startTime":1190.416,"endTime":1194.466,"body":"Nobody, nobody imagined that you"},{"startTime":1190.416,"endTime":1194.466,"body":"would have Uber or or whatever else."},{"startTime":1194.466,"endTime":1197.356,"body":"So, so that's I think the"},{"startTime":1194.466,"endTime":1197.356,"body":"cycles of shrunk dramatically."},{"startTime":1197.366,"endTime":1201.936,"body":"But it doesn't mean that you cannot have"},{"startTime":1197.366,"endTime":1201.936,"body":"planning that's beyond just the two week."},{"startTime":1202.051,"endTime":1205.431,"body":"Oh boy, like talk about stuff"},{"startTime":1202.051,"endTime":1205.431,"body":"getting like, holy, get out,"},{"startTime":1205.491,"endTime":1207.001,"body":"cut out of the podcast, Batman."},{"startTime":1207.086,"endTime":1210.036,"body":"Like five years is beyond"},{"startTime":1207.086,"endTime":1210.036,"body":"most people's thinking."},{"startTime":1210.111,"endTime":1212.936,"body":"You might as well go to Mars, at"},{"startTime":1210.111,"endTime":1212.936,"body":"that point, because nobody can"},{"startTime":1212.936,"endTime":1215.156,"body":"even think at that level anymore."},{"startTime":1215.326,"endTime":1219.756,"body":"And if, and if you have plans they're"},{"startTime":1215.326,"endTime":1219.756,"body":"basically invisible to everybody because"},{"startTime":1219.776,"endTime":1223.701,"body":"as you accomplish your milestones"},{"startTime":1219.776,"endTime":1223.701,"body":"nobody can even live at that speed."},{"startTime":1223.836,"endTime":1225.556,"body":"We should be planning to that."},{"startTime":1225.706,"endTime":1226.716,"body":"But, I don't know,"},{"startTime":1226.791,"endTime":1229.701,"body":"if you have plans that are 10"},{"startTime":1226.791,"endTime":1229.701,"body":"years out, they're pretty coarse."},{"startTime":1229.791,"endTime":1231.121,"body":"And, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1231.121,"endTime":1233.161,"body":"They're not really all"},{"startTime":1231.121,"endTime":1233.161,"body":"that well defined at all."},{"startTime":1233.221,"endTime":1236.811,"body":"They can't maybe, but I mean, like"},{"startTime":1233.221,"endTime":1236.811,"body":"missions don't change that often."},{"startTime":1236.811,"endTime":1240.501,"body":"I think maybe like going back to"},{"startTime":1236.811,"endTime":1240.501,"body":"our mission and vision podcast, like"},{"startTime":1240.551,"endTime":1242.271,"body":"missions don't change that often."},{"startTime":1242.421,"endTime":1245.541,"body":"So you should have goals that align"},{"startTime":1242.421,"endTime":1245.541,"body":"with the mission of your organization."},{"startTime":1245.691,"endTime":1247.121,"body":"And the vision of your organization."},{"startTime":1247.271,"endTime":1251.621,"body":"And I can't imagine that those"},{"startTime":1247.271,"endTime":1251.621,"body":"change every two, three years."},{"startTime":1251.621,"endTime":1252.991,"body":"They, they probably go longer than that."},{"startTime":1252.991,"endTime":1254.511,"body":"So like, I don't know"},{"startTime":1252.991,"endTime":1254.511,"body":"if this is just like."},{"startTime":1254.661,"endTime":1258.221,"body":"Just people short cutting things because"},{"startTime":1254.661,"endTime":1258.221,"body":"they're living quarter to quarter"},{"startTime":1258.241,"endTime":1260.811,"body":"because that's the way the stock market"},{"startTime":1258.241,"endTime":1260.811,"body":"works or whatever, or if this is just"},{"startTime":1261.011,"endTime":1266.271,"body":"some kind of, deep rooted, rot in the"},{"startTime":1261.011,"endTime":1266.271,"body":"system that is kind of taking a hold."},{"startTime":1266.356,"endTime":1269.256,"body":"It's probably both because those"},{"startTime":1266.356,"endTime":1269.256,"body":"execs that are planning that far"},{"startTime":1269.256,"endTime":1272.556,"body":"ahead, let's say three or five"},{"startTime":1269.256,"endTime":1272.556,"body":"years, They won't be in that position"},{"startTime":1272.566,"endTime":1273.666,"body":"three to five years from now."},{"startTime":1274.106,"endTime":1276.406,"body":"we're up against the Deming podcast"},{"startTime":1274.106,"endTime":1276.406,"body":"because that's what he warned."},{"startTime":1276.416,"endTime":1279.656,"body":"18 months, two years is too often"},{"startTime":1276.416,"endTime":1279.656,"body":"for your executives to move around."},{"startTime":1279.741,"endTime":1282.941,"body":"It's, it's way, way, way too"},{"startTime":1279.741,"endTime":1282.941,"body":"fast for your executives to move."},{"startTime":1283.091,"endTime":1285.801,"body":"Um, cause they can't, you can't"},{"startTime":1283.091,"endTime":1285.801,"body":"implement, you can't, basically,"},{"startTime":1285.801,"endTime":1288.521,"body":"you can barely even change the"},{"startTime":1285.801,"endTime":1288.521,"body":"system inside of that timeframe."},{"startTime":1288.671,"endTime":1288.921,"body":"True."},{"startTime":1289.071,"endTime":1289.731,"body":"Very true."},{"startTime":1289.781,"endTime":1291.001,"body":"He was one smart dude."},{"startTime":1291.076,"endTime":1293.646,"body":"the other thing that goes along with,"},{"startTime":1291.076,"endTime":1293.646,"body":"with kind of what we're talking about"},{"startTime":1293.646,"endTime":1298.836,"body":"now, sort of loosely, is, I've had,"},{"startTime":1293.646,"endTime":1298.836,"body":"development teams, engage with me,"},{"startTime":1298.896,"endTime":1300.386,"body":"that's my nice way of saying fight."},{"startTime":1300.536,"endTime":1302.996,"body":"I've had development teams"},{"startTime":1300.536,"endTime":1302.996,"body":"engage with me about."},{"startTime":1303.156,"endTime":1306.716,"body":"Hey, if we're only ever building"},{"startTime":1303.156,"endTime":1306.716,"body":"the, again, agile development, right?"},{"startTime":1306.726,"endTime":1309.806,"body":"Getting something out of every sprint,"},{"startTime":1306.726,"endTime":1309.806,"body":"every sprint, if, if we're only ever"},{"startTime":1309.806,"endTime":1312.926,"body":"building something that has to be"},{"startTime":1309.806,"endTime":1312.926,"body":"delivered every sprint, then, well,"},{"startTime":1312.946,"endTime":1317.776,"body":"we can never kind of take a step back"},{"startTime":1312.946,"endTime":1317.776,"body":"and consider the whole architecture or"},{"startTime":1317.776,"endTime":1322.806,"body":"design of the system or plan out, pieces"},{"startTime":1317.776,"endTime":1322.806,"body":"of the, of the future system and I've"},{"startTime":1322.806,"endTime":1327.996,"body":"heard that pushback before is it makes"},{"startTime":1322.806,"endTime":1327.996,"body":"it more difficult to take a systems"},{"startTime":1328.146,"endTime":1332.796,"body":"design, look at the entire system and,"},{"startTime":1328.146,"endTime":1332.796,"body":"and then to build pieces of those systems."},{"startTime":1332.921,"endTime":1335.891,"body":"I've been challenged on that"},{"startTime":1332.921,"endTime":1335.891,"body":"before, like for more than once."},{"startTime":1336.041,"endTime":1337.661,"body":"Definitely, definitely heard that as well."},{"startTime":1337.871,"endTime":1342.251,"body":"But in this case, I do believe this"},{"startTime":1337.871,"endTime":1342.251,"body":"comes back down to the, the expertise."},{"startTime":1342.401,"endTime":1346.911,"body":"The prowess of the architects, the true"},{"startTime":1342.401,"endTime":1346.911,"body":"architect, they should be able to think"},{"startTime":1346.971,"endTime":1350.541,"body":"in a kind of systems thinking manner,"},{"startTime":1346.971,"endTime":1350.541,"body":"and they should be able to come up"},{"startTime":1350.541,"endTime":1352.415,"body":"with a design that, that, that, that."},{"startTime":1352.565,"endTime":1356.325,"body":"precludes this thing from happening where"},{"startTime":1352.565,"endTime":1356.325,"body":"lack of design and architecture like"},{"startTime":1356.475,"endTime":1360.375,"body":"if that's happening you don't have an"},{"startTime":1356.475,"endTime":1360.375,"body":"architecture worth their salt on your team"},{"startTime":1360.525,"endTime":1364.565,"body":"you don't understand their domain perhaps"},{"startTime":1360.525,"endTime":1364.565,"body":"you know or there's issues that they're"},{"startTime":1364.715,"endTime":1370.365,"body":"solely ignoring and basically wallpapering"},{"startTime":1364.715,"endTime":1370.365,"body":"over Scaling issues, for example."},{"startTime":1370.49,"endTime":1371.89,"body":"They're not building those in."},{"startTime":1371.95,"endTime":1373.99,"body":"So, these cracks expose themselves."},{"startTime":1374.14,"endTime":1377.69,"body":"Um, I, I don't believe that this"},{"startTime":1374.14,"endTime":1377.69,"body":"is something that's insurmountable"},{"startTime":1377.7,"endTime":1381.2,"body":"given the right people in"},{"startTime":1377.7,"endTime":1381.2,"body":"place with the right expertise."},{"startTime":1381.35,"endTime":1383.26,"body":"People have had this"},{"startTime":1381.35,"endTime":1383.26,"body":"discussion with in the past."},{"startTime":1383.41,"endTime":1386.64,"body":"They, have a, I don't know a good"},{"startTime":1383.41,"endTime":1386.64,"body":"way to say they have a lack of"},{"startTime":1386.64,"endTime":1390.22,"body":"understanding of the difference"},{"startTime":1386.64,"endTime":1390.22,"body":"between, refinement and sprint planning."},{"startTime":1390.37,"endTime":1393.14,"body":"I will say a lot of times"},{"startTime":1390.37,"endTime":1393.14,"body":"because refinement is me."},{"startTime":1393.29,"endTime":1395.75,"body":"I own, I, the product"},{"startTime":1393.29,"endTime":1395.75,"body":"manager, I own refinement."},{"startTime":1395.95,"endTime":1400.94,"body":"That's my opportunity to punch ahead for"},{"startTime":1395.95,"endTime":1400.94,"body":"the roadmap to connecting the strategy,"},{"startTime":1401.21,"endTime":1403.14,"body":"a lot of different things in refinement."},{"startTime":1403.24,"endTime":1406.4,"body":"And, and sometimes I'll"},{"startTime":1403.24,"endTime":1406.4,"body":"use entire refinements."},{"startTime":1406.55,"endTime":1409.78,"body":"Often with my team in the room with"},{"startTime":1406.55,"endTime":1409.78,"body":"my full team in the room to do nothing"},{"startTime":1409.78,"endTime":1414.16,"body":"but talk about how what we're about to"},{"startTime":1409.78,"endTime":1414.16,"body":"build fits into a larger architecture"},{"startTime":1414.31,"endTime":1418.97,"body":"or to talk about a future architecture"},{"startTime":1414.31,"endTime":1418.97,"body":"that does not yet exist that we are"},{"startTime":1418.97,"endTime":1422.88,"body":"building the first piece of and that"},{"startTime":1418.97,"endTime":1422.88,"body":"and how we'll have to build a much"},{"startTime":1422.91,"endTime":1424.82,"body":"much much larger system in the future."},{"startTime":1424.945,"endTime":1428.405,"body":"But the first version is going"},{"startTime":1424.945,"endTime":1428.405,"body":"to have none of that because"},{"startTime":1428.405,"endTime":1429.605,"body":"we're trying to get to market."},{"startTime":1429.925,"endTime":1431.505,"body":"We're trying to prove"},{"startTime":1429.925,"endTime":1431.505,"body":"people want this product."},{"startTime":1431.505,"endTime":1434.04,"body":"We're trying to prove it is"},{"startTime":1431.505,"endTime":1434.04,"body":"valuable and solves a problem."},{"startTime":1434.19,"endTime":1437.49,"body":"And, so there's like a, there's"},{"startTime":1434.19,"endTime":1437.49,"body":"like a MVP little tiny version."},{"startTime":1437.64,"endTime":1441.42,"body":"And then there's the full blown"},{"startTime":1437.64,"endTime":1441.42,"body":"version, and a lot of developers"},{"startTime":1441.43,"endTime":1444.98,"body":"like very senior people in their"},{"startTime":1441.43,"endTime":1444.98,"body":"careers have challenged me to say, um."},{"startTime":1445.13,"endTime":1448.59,"body":"Why would we build a, this tiny"},{"startTime":1445.13,"endTime":1448.59,"body":"sliver that doesn't do X and Y and"},{"startTime":1448.59,"endTime":1452.31,"body":"Z when we know that anyone who joins"},{"startTime":1448.59,"endTime":1452.31,"body":"is going to want X and Y and Z?"},{"startTime":1452.385,"endTime":1453.145,"body":"But I've had that argument."},{"startTime":1453.2,"endTime":1457.13,"body":"M many, many times it would be a"},{"startTime":1453.2,"endTime":1457.13,"body":"spirited discussion at the least."},{"startTime":1457.13,"endTime":1457.37,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1457.37,"endTime":1461.12,"body":"And I can understand how that would"},{"startTime":1457.37,"endTime":1461.12,"body":"happen with developers that really don't,"},{"startTime":1461.27,"endTime":1462.68,"body":"they think they know what's needed."},{"startTime":1463.03,"endTime":1463.42,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1463.66,"endTime":1467.41,"body":"So you're in a perfect position as a"},{"startTime":1463.66,"endTime":1467.41,"body":"product person to, to be able to say,"},{"startTime":1467.44,"endTime":1469.3,"body":"we're testing the market this way."},{"startTime":1469.57,"endTime":1469.72,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1469.72,"endTime":1470.38,"body":"Essentially."},{"startTime":1470.435,"endTime":1471.155,"body":"but yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":1471.395,"endTime":1473.105,"body":"You'd, if they were to just go and."},{"startTime":1473.255,"endTime":1477.465,"body":"Just sit there and develop everything"},{"startTime":1473.255,"endTime":1477.465,"body":"before delivering anything, then"},{"startTime":1477.465,"endTime":1478.735,"body":"that wouldn't be agile, right?"},{"startTime":1479.035,"endTime":1484.595,"body":"So it behooves all of us as agilists"},{"startTime":1479.035,"endTime":1484.595,"body":"to convince developers to say, look, we"},{"startTime":1484.595,"endTime":1489.265,"body":"want to show this to our customers, let"},{"startTime":1484.595,"endTime":1489.265,"body":"them tell us which pieces of the puzzle"},{"startTime":1489.275,"endTime":1491.005,"body":"should be exposed to which teams, right?"},{"startTime":1491.055,"endTime":1493.745,"body":"They can come back and say, well,"},{"startTime":1491.055,"endTime":1493.745,"body":"maybe we want some people to be able"},{"startTime":1493.745,"endTime":1495.245,"body":"to see things, but not change things."},{"startTime":1495.385,"endTime":1495.735,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1495.765,"endTime":1498.335,"body":"Well, now we've learned something"},{"startTime":1495.765,"endTime":1498.335,"body":"about their intended use."},{"startTime":1498.485,"endTime":1499.415,"body":"So we go build that."},{"startTime":1499.565,"endTime":1502.745,"body":"We know the pieces, we have"},{"startTime":1499.565,"endTime":1502.745,"body":"the pieces, right, to build it."},{"startTime":1502.845,"endTime":1506.285,"body":"This is typical of most of these"},{"startTime":1502.845,"endTime":1506.285,"body":"applications that, you put people"},{"startTime":1506.285,"endTime":1508.915,"body":"in groups, et cetera, et cetera,"},{"startTime":1506.285,"endTime":1508.915,"body":"and you provide them with group"},{"startTime":1508.925,"endTime":1510.125,"body":"permissions and whatever else."},{"startTime":1510.22,"endTime":1513.54,"body":"but let's not assume that they"},{"startTime":1510.22,"endTime":1513.54,"body":"want something and then try"},{"startTime":1513.54,"endTime":1514.95,"body":"and build that ahead of time."},{"startTime":1514.97,"endTime":1517.57,"body":"So it falls under the guise of deliver it."},{"startTime":1517.675,"endTime":1519.94,"body":"Solicit feedback and"},{"startTime":1517.675,"endTime":1519.94,"body":"then rinse and repeat."},{"startTime":1520.015,"endTime":1524.135,"body":"I feel the complete opposite side of"},{"startTime":1520.015,"endTime":1524.135,"body":"this is executive saying Um, I don't"},{"startTime":1524.135,"endTime":1528.625,"body":"like agile because, I can't lock down the"},{"startTime":1524.135,"endTime":1528.625,"body":"scope before you begin something to say,"},{"startTime":1528.625,"endTime":1531.655,"body":"well, the opposite, this is the opposite"},{"startTime":1528.625,"endTime":1531.655,"body":"because the last thing we talked about is,"},{"startTime":1531.905,"endTime":1534.985,"body":"Hey, we're going to start building a tiny"},{"startTime":1531.905,"endTime":1534.985,"body":"sliver of the system and we know there's"},{"startTime":1534.985,"endTime":1536.945,"body":"a big system that needs to be supported."},{"startTime":1537.095,"endTime":1540.795,"body":"And then the other side of this is I"},{"startTime":1537.095,"endTime":1540.795,"body":"don't want you building a big system."},{"startTime":1540.845,"endTime":1545.265,"body":"I want you to tell me everything you're"},{"startTime":1540.845,"endTime":1545.265,"body":"about to build, and, and my product"},{"startTime":1545.265,"endTime":1546.615,"body":"pushback to this usually is like."},{"startTime":1546.765,"endTime":1549.965,"body":"I can't tell you what I'm about"},{"startTime":1546.765,"endTime":1549.965,"body":"to build because I have no idea."},{"startTime":1550.105,"endTime":1552.895,"body":"I don't know how much is going to"},{"startTime":1550.105,"endTime":1552.895,"body":"be enough and when we can stop."},{"startTime":1553.185,"endTime":1557.665,"body":"But all I know is this is the business's"},{"startTime":1553.185,"endTime":1557.665,"body":"number one strategy, number one"},{"startTime":1557.665,"endTime":1559.895,"body":"customer problem, number one priority."},{"startTime":1560.085,"endTime":1561.485,"body":"We're going to stay on this."},{"startTime":1561.635,"endTime":1567.665,"body":"Until we all agree unanimously that we"},{"startTime":1561.635,"endTime":1567.665,"body":"are done right until the metrics match and"},{"startTime":1567.665,"endTime":1571.575,"body":"the customers are happy and the money is"},{"startTime":1567.665,"endTime":1571.575,"body":"coming in until we all agree we're done"},{"startTime":1571.725,"endTime":1573.115,"body":"and we want to pivot to something else."},{"startTime":1573.265,"endTime":1577.195,"body":"Yeah, not only do you not know"},{"startTime":1573.265,"endTime":1577.195,"body":"what all there is to build, maybe"},{"startTime":1577.195,"endTime":1578.485,"body":"the customer also doesn't know."},{"startTime":1578.635,"endTime":1581.205,"body":"They learn along the"},{"startTime":1578.635,"endTime":1581.205,"body":"journey themselves, right?"},{"startTime":1581.535,"endTime":1585.195,"body":"So if you show them something and you"},{"startTime":1581.535,"endTime":1585.195,"body":"have a discussion with them every time,"},{"startTime":1585.345,"endTime":1587.455,"body":"they may say, Oh, well, can we do this?"},{"startTime":1587.605,"endTime":1588.995,"body":"Yes, or maybe not."},{"startTime":1589.125,"endTime":1591.085,"body":"Maybe we can do this instead,"},{"startTime":1589.125,"endTime":1591.085,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1591.085,"endTime":1595.605,"body":"So that that's how the product"},{"startTime":1591.085,"endTime":1595.605,"body":"evolves in tandem with the customer."},{"startTime":1595.605,"endTime":1598.025,"body":"Sometimes they don't"},{"startTime":1595.605,"endTime":1598.025,"body":"necessarily have a clear idea."},{"startTime":1598.175,"endTime":1602.345,"body":"Every piece of functionality ever"},{"startTime":1598.175,"endTime":1602.345,"body":"needed in the product by them, right?"},{"startTime":1602.375,"endTime":1605.655,"body":"They don't necessarily know that,"},{"startTime":1602.375,"endTime":1605.655,"body":"an executive who says we need to"},{"startTime":1605.655,"endTime":1608.645,"body":"know everything that needs to be"},{"startTime":1605.655,"endTime":1608.645,"body":"built obviously, it's not coming"},{"startTime":1608.645,"endTime":1610.635,"body":"from a place of agility, right?"},{"startTime":1610.635,"endTime":1613.905,"body":"They're coming from perhaps, perhaps"},{"startTime":1610.635,"endTime":1613.905,"body":"they're part of the old guard."},{"startTime":1613.905,"endTime":1615.685,"body":"They're saying, well, we"},{"startTime":1613.905,"endTime":1615.685,"body":"need everything written down."},{"startTime":1615.935,"endTime":1617.745,"body":"That way we know we're cutting the risk."},{"startTime":1617.895,"endTime":1620.655,"body":"Ultimately, you got to figure out why"},{"startTime":1617.895,"endTime":1620.655,"body":"they're asking the question, right?"},{"startTime":1620.685,"endTime":1622.735,"body":"And I think nine times out of"},{"startTime":1620.685,"endTime":1622.735,"body":"10, it's, they're trying to"},{"startTime":1622.735,"endTime":1624.565,"body":"cut the risk of scope creep."},{"startTime":1624.635,"endTime":1627.045,"body":"Essentially, they want to"},{"startTime":1624.635,"endTime":1627.045,"body":"lock in the scope and say."},{"startTime":1627.195,"endTime":1628.895,"body":"All of these things are"},{"startTime":1627.195,"endTime":1628.895,"body":"what we have to deliver."},{"startTime":1628.895,"endTime":1631.835,"body":"And anything outside of that, by"},{"startTime":1628.895,"endTime":1631.835,"body":"definition, we're not going to deliver."},{"startTime":1631.985,"endTime":1635.235,"body":"But that's kind of premature because"},{"startTime":1631.985,"endTime":1635.235,"body":"maybe something outside of that is"},{"startTime":1635.235,"endTime":1639.375,"body":"exactly what the customer wants through"},{"startTime":1635.235,"endTime":1639.375,"body":"discovery over time, they decide they"},{"startTime":1639.375,"endTime":1643.625,"body":"want this other piece of functionality"},{"startTime":1639.375,"endTime":1643.625,"body":"that they didn't even imagine on day one."},{"startTime":1643.775,"endTime":1645.095,"body":"So, two things here."},{"startTime":1645.115,"endTime":1649.575,"body":"One is, if you're worried about"},{"startTime":1645.115,"endTime":1649.575,"body":"locking down the risk, you're"},{"startTime":1649.615,"endTime":1650.755,"body":"locking down the wrong risk."},{"startTime":1650.905,"endTime":1654.535,"body":"You're locking down the risk of"},{"startTime":1650.905,"endTime":1654.535,"body":"scope creep, supposedly, whereas we"},{"startTime":1654.535,"endTime":1658.395,"body":"should really be, the classic words"},{"startTime":1654.535,"endTime":1658.395,"body":"are welcome changing requirements"},{"startTime":1658.395,"endTime":1659.615,"body":"even late in the process, right?"},{"startTime":1659.615,"endTime":1662.795,"body":"But, the risk you should be worried"},{"startTime":1659.615,"endTime":1662.795,"body":"about is not delivering something"},{"startTime":1662.795,"endTime":1664.405,"body":"that the customer really wants, right?"},{"startTime":1664.485,"endTime":1668.635,"body":"So flip that on its head and say,"},{"startTime":1664.485,"endTime":1668.635,"body":"let's engage with them, right?"},{"startTime":1668.885,"endTime":1671.905,"body":"And let's build something, even if"},{"startTime":1668.885,"endTime":1671.905,"body":"it's not exactly what they want."},{"startTime":1671.915,"endTime":1673.255,"body":"We know it's not exactly what they want."},{"startTime":1673.405,"endTime":1676.995,"body":"But then we can tailor in, it's"},{"startTime":1673.405,"endTime":1676.995,"body":"got a, almost like a homing beak,"},{"startTime":1677.145,"endTime":1679.035,"body":"tailor into, the, the process."},{"startTime":1679.185,"endTime":1680.645,"body":"There's some variance there."},{"startTime":1680.845,"endTime":1684.405,"body":"We're going to listen to the customer and"},{"startTime":1680.845,"endTime":1684.405,"body":"we're going to pivot every single sprint."},{"startTime":1684.555,"endTime":1687.325,"body":"The other thing that's on this list"},{"startTime":1684.555,"endTime":1687.325,"body":"that I hadn't, I hadn't thought of"},{"startTime":1687.325,"endTime":1692.435,"body":"until right when I was ready to hit the"},{"startTime":1687.325,"endTime":1692.435,"body":"stop button is testing, like inadequate"},{"startTime":1692.435,"endTime":1694.175,"body":"testing like, Hey, we're agile now."},{"startTime":1694.325,"endTime":1696.885,"body":"And the scrum guide says"},{"startTime":1694.325,"endTime":1696.885,"body":"developers do tests."},{"startTime":1696.905,"endTime":1699.905,"body":"I don't mean, I don't think the scrum"},{"startTime":1696.905,"endTime":1699.905,"body":"guide even says that, but, so I'm"},{"startTime":1699.905,"endTime":1703.775,"body":"going to fire all my testers and my"},{"startTime":1699.905,"endTime":1703.775,"body":"developers are going to do testing now."},{"startTime":1704.015,"endTime":1707.085,"body":"So, which obviously like it's, it sounds."},{"startTime":1707.235,"endTime":1710.175,"body":"It is as much of a train"},{"startTime":1707.235,"endTime":1710.175,"body":"wreck as it sounds."},{"startTime":1710.325,"endTime":1714.005,"body":"Especially if you approach it with that"},{"startTime":1710.325,"endTime":1714.005,"body":"mentality of, that, that flippant, Oh,"},{"startTime":1714.005,"endTime":1718.635,"body":"I'll just make my developers test, so"},{"startTime":1714.005,"endTime":1718.635,"body":"the inadequate testing and quality gripe"},{"startTime":1718.785,"endTime":1722.745,"body":"is a real gripe, which is also like,"},{"startTime":1718.785,"endTime":1722.745,"body":"it happens to be my lane of expertise."},{"startTime":1722.895,"endTime":1725.205,"body":"So, like , let's discuss this one."},{"startTime":1725.355,"endTime":1726.525,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1726.53,"endTime":1730.335,"body":"I've seen that as well where people say"},{"startTime":1726.53,"endTime":1730.335,"body":"we don't need testers, or what, what"},{"startTime":1730.335,"endTime":1734.285,"body":"they say is, we are gonna give you a"},{"startTime":1730.335,"endTime":1734.285,"body":"tester part-time, and then part-time,"},{"startTime":1734.495,"endTime":1736.265,"body":"for three, three sprints, right."},{"startTime":1736.475,"endTime":1737.345,"body":"And then they'll move."},{"startTime":1737.69,"endTime":1738.17,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1738.28,"endTime":1739.4,"body":"They'll move to some other team."},{"startTime":1739.47,"endTime":1739.65,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1739.8,"endTime":1745.005,"body":"Like, okay, that clearly is not going to"},{"startTime":1739.8,"endTime":1745.005,"body":"fly, quality is something that suffers"},{"startTime":1745.035,"endTime":1749.335,"body":"as a result of a lot of these little,"},{"startTime":1745.035,"endTime":1749.335,"body":"tweaks that people make to the process,"},{"startTime":1749.46,"endTime":1752.27,"body":"the process in double quotes, air quotes."},{"startTime":1752.345,"endTime":1753.245,"body":", and this is one of them."},{"startTime":1753.395,"endTime":1756.865,"body":"I think when you say developers should"},{"startTime":1753.395,"endTime":1756.865,"body":"be doing testing, you're already"},{"startTime":1756.865,"endTime":1758.085,"body":"talking about it the wrong way."},{"startTime":1758.235,"endTime":1758.535,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1758.685,"endTime":1759.885,"body":"It's, I'd rather say."},{"startTime":1760.12,"endTime":1762.26,"body":"The team owns quality, right?"},{"startTime":1762.53,"endTime":1763.86,"body":"So, who is the team?"},{"startTime":1763.95,"endTime":1766.66,"body":"Oh, well, we've got developers"},{"startTime":1763.95,"endTime":1766.66,"body":"and we have testers combined."},{"startTime":1766.81,"endTime":1768.24,"body":"Okay, well, then they own quality."},{"startTime":1768.39,"endTime":1769.12,"body":"Developers..."},{"startTime":1769.27,"endTime":1772.55,"body":"We should never ever say, I'm"},{"startTime":1769.27,"endTime":1772.55,"body":"a developer, I don't test."},{"startTime":1772.76,"endTime":1775.48,"body":"You should be writing the test to begin"},{"startTime":1772.76,"endTime":1775.48,"body":"with, but that's a different podcast."},{"startTime":1775.63,"endTime":1776.38,"body":"Um, right?"},{"startTime":1776.38,"endTime":1781.25,"body":"So, and then the slippery slope here,"},{"startTime":1776.38,"endTime":1781.25,"body":"which is pretty slippery, is get"},{"startTime":1781.25,"endTime":1782.6,"body":"the developer to test their code."},{"startTime":1782.66,"endTime":1785.59,"body":"It's like, that's not, we"},{"startTime":1782.66,"endTime":1785.59,"body":"know that doesn't work, right?"},{"startTime":1785.59,"endTime":1787.77,"body":"The developer who writes the"},{"startTime":1785.59,"endTime":1787.77,"body":"code tests their own code."},{"startTime":1787.92,"endTime":1788.64,"body":"That doesn't work."},{"startTime":1788.79,"endTime":1791.79,"body":"They're going to put up something on"},{"startTime":1788.79,"endTime":1791.79,"body":"the screen that says, world, hello, and"},{"startTime":1791.79,"endTime":1792.95,"body":"they're going to say that that works."},{"startTime":1793.1,"endTime":1794.36,"body":"That should be Hello world, maybe."},{"startTime":1794.51,"endTime":1794.87,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1794.87,"endTime":1800.0,"body":"And so anyway, quality is something"},{"startTime":1794.87,"endTime":1800.0,"body":"that people bolt on after the fact Yeah."},{"startTime":1800.15,"endTime":1801.92,"body":"Often instead of building it in."},{"startTime":1802.19,"endTime":1802.46,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1802.61,"endTime":1806.54,"body":"That would be the big problem with this"},{"startTime":1802.61,"endTime":1806.54,"body":"category, is that, people pushing back in"},{"startTime":1806.54,"endTime":1811.4,"body":"this category, they, they're implement,"},{"startTime":1806.54,"endTime":1811.4,"body":"I'll call it their implementation of"},{"startTime":1811.44,"endTime":1816.93,"body":"agile, inadequate testing problems with"},{"startTime":1811.44,"endTime":1816.93,"body":"quality, whatever, is that they are"},{"startTime":1817.18,"endTime":1822.49,"body":"trying to inspect for quality after"},{"startTime":1817.18,"endTime":1822.49,"body":"the fact, which is a huge problem."},{"startTime":1822.74,"endTime":1825.07,"body":"The team should own the"},{"startTime":1822.74,"endTime":1825.07,"body":"quality should be built in."},{"startTime":1825.34,"endTime":1828.02,"body":"And then also, like I said,"},{"startTime":1825.34,"endTime":1828.02,"body":"it should be built in."},{"startTime":1828.17,"endTime":1830.44,"body":"So the next logical thing is quality."},{"startTime":1830.59,"endTime":1834.31,"body":"Like there should not be"},{"startTime":1830.59,"endTime":1834.31,"body":"the option to compromise."},{"startTime":1834.46,"endTime":1838.8,"body":"Or trade off quality for anything"},{"startTime":1834.46,"endTime":1838.8,"body":"else that should not be an option."},{"startTime":1839.0,"endTime":1843.355,"body":"It, if, if you're, if you're"},{"startTime":1839.0,"endTime":1843.355,"body":"baking in, tests, into your code."},{"startTime":1843.47,"endTime":1847.22,"body":"Again, we can hold, we can do a"},{"startTime":1843.47,"endTime":1847.22,"body":"whole podcast just on this one"},{"startTime":1847.41,"endTime":1848.59,"body":"point that we're talking about now."},{"startTime":1848.945,"endTime":1852.855,"body":"Quality should be done in stages and"},{"startTime":1848.945,"endTime":1852.855,"body":"it should be done, it should be started"},{"startTime":1852.875,"endTime":1854.865,"body":"as soon as the work item starts."},{"startTime":1854.935,"endTime":1858.825,"body":"It should be like, as soon as the work"},{"startTime":1854.935,"endTime":1858.825,"body":"item starts being discussed, we should"},{"startTime":1858.825,"endTime":1862.285,"body":"be talking about how we're going to"},{"startTime":1858.825,"endTime":1862.285,"body":"test it, and then, there should be"},{"startTime":1862.295,"endTime":1864.075,"body":"some, some sort of standards in place."},{"startTime":1864.245,"endTime":1868.585,"body":"I think of the definition of done type"},{"startTime":1864.245,"endTime":1868.585,"body":"of, working agreement type of, it's"},{"startTime":1868.885,"endTime":1873.445,"body":"agreements basically with a team about,"},{"startTime":1868.885,"endTime":1873.445,"body":"writing automated tests, writing unit"},{"startTime":1873.445,"endTime":1878.585,"body":"tests, writing, maybe, UI tests for"},{"startTime":1873.445,"endTime":1878.585,"body":"certain things, if necessary, API tests,"},{"startTime":1878.585,"endTime":1882.375,"body":"stuff like, stuff like that, basically"},{"startTime":1878.585,"endTime":1882.375,"body":"functional tests, should be, checks,"},{"startTime":1882.525,"endTime":1884.155,"body":"checks should be done along the way."},{"startTime":1884.305,"endTime":1887.465,"body":"And all of that should be a"},{"startTime":1884.305,"endTime":1887.465,"body":"standard part of the process."},{"startTime":1887.615,"endTime":1890.895,"body":"It's, it's not something you can"},{"startTime":1887.615,"endTime":1890.895,"body":"throw out in order to, accelerate"},{"startTime":1890.895,"endTime":1893.095,"body":"your development by 10% or whatever."},{"startTime":1893.245,"endTime":1896.345,"body":"Yeah, but often times, though, what"},{"startTime":1893.245,"endTime":1896.345,"body":"happens is the teams don't really pay"},{"startTime":1896.345,"endTime":1899.665,"body":"attention to these team standards,"},{"startTime":1896.345,"endTime":1899.665,"body":"I'll call them loosely, right?"},{"startTime":1899.79,"endTime":1902.42,"body":"they simply just muddle"},{"startTime":1899.79,"endTime":1902.42,"body":"through, is what they do."},{"startTime":1902.73,"endTime":1905.62,"body":"You know, they have testers"},{"startTime":1902.73,"endTime":1905.62,"body":"that test after developers throw"},{"startTime":1905.62,"endTime":1906.79,"body":"things over the wall at them."},{"startTime":1906.94,"endTime":1908.22,"body":"And then they raise bugs."},{"startTime":1908.345,"endTime":1911.595,"body":"they don't worry about things"},{"startTime":1908.345,"endTime":1911.595,"body":"like, minimum, code coverage, for"},{"startTime":1911.595,"endTime":1915.765,"body":"example, or, regression every,"},{"startTime":1911.595,"endTime":1915.765,"body":"every step of the way when it moves"},{"startTime":1915.795,"endTime":1917.935,"body":"through different environments,"},{"startTime":1915.795,"endTime":1917.935,"body":"for instance, things like that."},{"startTime":1918.085,"endTime":1922.015,"body":"So again, this, this talks to,"},{"startTime":1918.085,"endTime":1922.015,"body":"I think, largely to the maturity"},{"startTime":1922.015,"endTime":1925.495,"body":"or probably the lack thereof,"},{"startTime":1922.015,"endTime":1925.495,"body":"right, of a, of an agile team."},{"startTime":1925.645,"endTime":1928.885,"body":"If a team's been around long enough,"},{"startTime":1925.645,"endTime":1928.885,"body":"they will have figured all this out."},{"startTime":1929.115,"endTime":1929.355,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1929.655,"endTime":1932.265,"body":"And then you will have"},{"startTime":1929.655,"endTime":1932.265,"body":"these, these team standards."},{"startTime":1932.415,"endTime":1932.745,"body":"And."},{"startTime":1932.895,"endTime":1936.845,"body":"The thing that I watch for is that not"},{"startTime":1932.895,"endTime":1936.845,"body":"only that they exist, but then what"},{"startTime":1936.845,"endTime":1938.565,"body":"happens over time to those things?"},{"startTime":1938.865,"endTime":1942.655,"body":"Teams that are maturing will"},{"startTime":1938.865,"endTime":1942.655,"body":"improve those standards over time."},{"startTime":1942.805,"endTime":1945.155,"body":"And when that's not happening,"},{"startTime":1942.805,"endTime":1945.155,"body":"quality is suffering."},{"startTime":1945.165,"endTime":1946.605,"body":"You just know that, right?"},{"startTime":1946.755,"endTime":1947.735,"body":"That's, that's interesting."},{"startTime":1947.735,"endTime":1952.78,"body":"Cause I haven't, I haven't heard that"},{"startTime":1947.735,"endTime":1952.78,"body":"one before as your Agile team matures, is"},{"startTime":1952.78,"endTime":1956.06,"body":"your quality maturing as well over time?"},{"startTime":1956.35,"endTime":1957.85,"body":"At least your processes, I would say."},{"startTime":1958.0,"endTime":1962.195,"body":"Yeah, you know, what's funny is a hundred"},{"startTime":1958.0,"endTime":1962.195,"body":"hundred twenty something hundred almost"},{"startTime":1962.285,"endTime":1967.915,"body":"130 episodes I don't think we've ever"},{"startTime":1962.285,"endTime":1967.915,"body":"done an episode on Testing in agile like a"},{"startTime":1967.915,"endTime":1971.355,"body":"basic like the basics of testing in agile."},{"startTime":1971.43,"endTime":1973.92,"body":"I might need to put that on the"},{"startTime":1971.43,"endTime":1973.92,"body":"list because again like that's"},{"startTime":1973.96,"endTime":1978.41,"body":"that's my professional background"},{"startTime":1973.96,"endTime":1978.41,"body":"And, something I can speak"},{"startTime":1978.41,"endTime":1980.3,"body":"directly to and with my expertise."},{"startTime":1980.45,"endTime":1982.59,"body":"So we should put that on the list for"},{"startTime":1980.45,"endTime":1982.59,"body":"sooner rather than later, actually."},{"startTime":1982.74,"endTime":1983.26,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1983.31,"endTime":1983.99,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1984.14,"endTime":1988.203,"body":"Well, if you're getting challenged,"},{"startTime":1984.14,"endTime":1988.203,"body":"that, Agilis, they, they won't"},{"startTime":1988.203,"endTime":1991.403,"body":"commit to deadlines and they don't"},{"startTime":1988.203,"endTime":1991.403,"body":"know how to hit deadlines and"},{"startTime":1991.403,"endTime":1993.543,"body":"milestones and dates and whatnot."},{"startTime":1993.853,"endTime":1996.943,"body":"Um, podcast can help you."},{"startTime":1997.093,"endTime":1998.843,"body":"Let's know what your"},{"startTime":1997.093,"endTime":1998.843,"body":"thoughts are down below."},{"startTime":1998.993,"endTime":2000.623,"body":"Subscribe and like that's right."},{"startTime":2000.653,"endTime":2003.433,"body":"Subscribing and also subscribing"},{"startTime":2000.653,"endTime":2003.433,"body":"like a date out of the air."},{"startTime":2003.463,"endTime":2004.343,"body":"That's what that's right."}]}