{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.232,"body":"Recently I threw out post on LinkedIn"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.232,"body":"because I was looking for stats on how"},{"startTime":4.232,"endTime":9.747,"body":"many CPOs, VPs of product had actual"},{"startTime":4.232,"endTime":9.747,"body":"backgrounds in product management,"},{"startTime":9.787,"endTime":14.147,"body":"I was having difficulty finding any"},{"startTime":9.787,"endTime":14.147,"body":"information about where they came from"},{"startTime":14.147,"endTime":17.404,"body":"in their career before they became"},{"startTime":14.147,"endTime":17.404,"body":"Chief product officer or VP of product"},{"startTime":17.442,"endTime":19.672,"body":"so I ran across this"},{"startTime":17.442,"endTime":19.672,"body":"post, from Jason Knight."},{"startTime":19.702,"endTime":20.752,"body":"He's a product consultant."},{"startTime":20.762,"endTime":25.585,"body":"He says, PMs, which of these"},{"startTime":20.762,"endTime":25.585,"body":"would you least like the product"},{"startTime":25.585,"endTime":27.355,"body":"function to report through?"},{"startTime":27.505,"endTime":28.505,"body":"Report through."},{"startTime":28.825,"endTime":29.885,"body":"So he lists four positions."},{"startTime":29.885,"endTime":32.075,"body":"He lists the CEO, the COO."},{"startTime":32.075,"endTime":35.925,"body":"The CTO and the CMO are from for everyone"},{"startTime":32.075,"endTime":35.925,"body":"who can't see the screen right now."},{"startTime":36.075,"endTime":42.985,"body":"This basically is a poll of which C level"},{"startTime":36.075,"endTime":42.985,"body":"position as product you do not want to"},{"startTime":43.105,"endTime":45.955,"body":"report to coming in number one at 44."},{"startTime":45.955,"endTime":50.465,"body":"4 percent was the CMO, the chief marketing"},{"startTime":45.955,"endTime":50.465,"body":"officer coming in at a second at 27."},{"startTime":50.465,"endTime":53.855,"body":"4 percent was the COO, the"},{"startTime":50.465,"endTime":53.855,"body":"chief operating officer."},{"startTime":54.325,"endTime":56.935,"body":"Followed up by the CTO at 18."},{"startTime":56.935,"endTime":59.595,"body":"1 percent and the CEO at 10."},{"startTime":59.745,"endTime":59.755,"body":"1%."},{"startTime":59.84,"endTime":63.986,"body":"Yeah, and that poll had,"},{"startTime":59.84,"endTime":63.986,"body":"1, 370, or so responses."},{"startTime":63.996,"endTime":65.861,"body":"So, pretty extensive, I would say."},{"startTime":66.111,"endTime":67.071,"body":"That's not bad at all."},{"startTime":67.461,"endTime":72.531,"body":"So where should product be"},{"startTime":67.461,"endTime":72.531,"body":"organized in your hierarchy or"},{"startTime":72.551,"endTime":74.151,"body":"the organizational structure?"},{"startTime":74.171,"endTime":76.761,"body":"That's really what we're"},{"startTime":74.171,"endTime":76.761,"body":"trying to delve into today."},{"startTime":76.911,"endTime":80.131,"body":"If you're a product person,"},{"startTime":76.911,"endTime":80.131,"body":"I am sure you're interested."},{"startTime":80.131,"endTime":82.571,"body":"If you're not, I'm sure you're"},{"startTime":80.131,"endTime":82.571,"body":"still interested because..."},{"startTime":82.721,"endTime":83.931,"body":"You love arguing at you."},{"startTime":84.041,"endTime":84.541,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":84.771,"endTime":85.261,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":85.261,"endTime":86.151,"body":"So let's see."},{"startTime":86.301,"endTime":88.241,"body":"Let's see if we can argue"},{"startTime":86.301,"endTime":88.241,"body":"about any of these things."},{"startTime":88.316,"endTime":89.726,"body":"That's that's the poll."},{"startTime":89.946,"endTime":94.256,"body":"I thought it was interesting and it's"},{"startTime":89.946,"endTime":94.256,"body":"the closest thing I've found directly to"},{"startTime":94.256,"endTime":97.486,"body":"my answer Because I still didn't I still"},{"startTime":94.256,"endTime":97.486,"body":"never found an answer like I searched"},{"startTime":97.486,"endTime":102.476,"body":"around no answer we're gonna save that"},{"startTime":97.486,"endTime":102.476,"body":"topic for a little later in the podcast."},{"startTime":102.536,"endTime":105.661,"body":"And we're gonna start with there was"},{"startTime":102.536,"endTime":105.661,"body":"a whole article attached to this poll."},{"startTime":105.811,"endTime":108.291,"body":"And, it, it was actually"},{"startTime":105.811,"endTime":108.291,"body":"pretty interesting."},{"startTime":108.366,"endTime":112.496,"body":"As he walks through, he gives his"},{"startTime":108.366,"endTime":112.496,"body":"opinion on each individual position"},{"startTime":112.646,"endTime":115.076,"body":"and, he doesn't really go pros and cons."},{"startTime":115.076,"endTime":117.266,"body":"So I think that's, I think we're"},{"startTime":115.076,"endTime":117.266,"body":"going to talk about pros and cons."},{"startTime":117.341,"endTime":119.691,"body":"Why don't we walk through his"},{"startTime":117.341,"endTime":119.691,"body":"article until we get to the first"},{"startTime":119.691,"endTime":122.301,"body":"con and then we'll, we'll pivot"},{"startTime":119.691,"endTime":122.301,"body":"to talking about pros and cons."},{"startTime":122.301,"endTime":123.151,"body":"That sounds like a plan."},{"startTime":123.151,"endTime":123.421,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":123.761,"endTime":126.591,"body":"Cause we are Arguing Agile as we're"},{"startTime":123.761,"endTime":126.591,"body":"going to talk about pros and cons."},{"startTime":126.601,"endTime":128.261,"body":"So you get double the value."},{"startTime":128.556,"endTime":129.726,"body":"so we'll come back to the article."},{"startTime":129.736,"endTime":132.776,"body":"After he shows a poll, he says,"},{"startTime":129.736,"endTime":132.776,"body":"it's fair to say that most people's"},{"startTime":132.776,"endTime":134.306,"body":"judgment is going to be clouded."},{"startTime":134.566,"endTime":137.336,"body":"Clouded by, quote, that one executive."},{"startTime":137.826,"endTime":138.336,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":138.386,"endTime":140.246,"body":"By your one bad experience."},{"startTime":140.306,"endTime":143.426,"body":"I want to start arguing, but I also"},{"startTime":140.306,"endTime":143.426,"body":"want to get through the article"},{"startTime":143.706,"endTime":146.016,"body":"so we can get to the actual meat."},{"startTime":146.186,"endTime":149.576,"body":"We can maybe do both the"},{"startTime":146.186,"endTime":149.576,"body":"meat and the potatoes."},{"startTime":149.606,"endTime":153.006,"body":"Well, I want to argue because like"},{"startTime":149.606,"endTime":153.006,"body":"how many, how many quote What one"},{"startTime":153.016,"endTime":157.716,"body":"executives do you have to work for that"},{"startTime":153.016,"endTime":157.716,"body":"are bad before, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":157.936,"endTime":159.466,"body":"Is it all anecdotal evidence?"},{"startTime":159.486,"endTime":162.211,"body":"If every single, workplace?"},{"startTime":162.411,"endTime":165.961,"body":"Whenever you give out the advice, like you"},{"startTime":162.411,"endTime":165.961,"body":"should keep your resume updated, like that"},{"startTime":165.961,"endTime":169.631,"body":"advice gets given out a lot, especially"},{"startTime":165.961,"endTime":169.631,"body":"by yours truly, because I believe it."},{"startTime":169.631,"endTime":171.907,"body":"So there's a lot of, a"},{"startTime":169.631,"endTime":171.907,"body":"lot of variables there."},{"startTime":172.088,"endTime":173.348,"body":"Alright, let's, let's push on."},{"startTime":173.348,"endTime":173.668,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":173.718,"endTime":176.688,"body":"He says, who product manager"},{"startTime":173.718,"endTime":176.688,"body":"reports through is a statement."},{"startTime":176.838,"endTime":179.028,"body":"Which I, I'm, I'm kind"},{"startTime":176.838,"endTime":179.028,"body":"of with him on this one."},{"startTime":179.028,"endTime":180.148,"body":"I kind of feel it is a statement."},{"startTime":180.148,"endTime":183.468,"body":"He says, they have an outsized impact"},{"startTime":180.148,"endTime":183.468,"body":"on product management and how it's"},{"startTime":183.468,"endTime":185.948,"body":"run through the organization and"},{"startTime":183.468,"endTime":185.948,"body":"they have a, and they have a big"},{"startTime":185.948,"endTime":187.748,"body":"impact on what success looks like."},{"startTime":187.768,"endTime":189.278,"body":"I agree with him on all those points."},{"startTime":189.428,"endTime":192.058,"body":"I'm going to say the other side"},{"startTime":189.428,"endTime":192.058,"body":"of it, which is it depends, right?"},{"startTime":192.058,"endTime":193.618,"body":"Because if you are."},{"startTime":193.768,"endTime":199.828,"body":"A, if you're a new company that's"},{"startTime":193.768,"endTime":199.828,"body":"just formed, right, you got maybe"},{"startTime":199.848,"endTime":204.998,"body":"some VC money, you don't really"},{"startTime":199.848,"endTime":204.998,"body":"have product in place, right?"},{"startTime":205.028,"endTime":208.718,"body":"What you have is a very"},{"startTime":205.028,"endTime":208.718,"body":"enthusiastic, leader."},{"startTime":209.573,"endTime":212.583,"body":"They may well be the CEO."},{"startTime":212.733,"endTime":215.263,"body":"And when that company matures..."},{"startTime":215.413,"endTime":220.813,"body":"Over, let's say, 2, 3, 4, 5"},{"startTime":215.413,"endTime":220.813,"body":"years maybe, and they grow."},{"startTime":220.973,"endTime":222.913,"body":"Now you have a proper product function."},{"startTime":222.943,"endTime":225.113,"body":"We might talk about that at that point."},{"startTime":225.393,"endTime":228.703,"body":"So where products should fall"},{"startTime":225.393,"endTime":228.703,"body":"in the organizational hierarchy."},{"startTime":228.853,"endTime":232.303,"body":"But if you've just started, you bet"},{"startTime":228.853,"endTime":232.303,"body":"if they bring you in, you're going to"},{"startTime":232.303,"endTime":236.003,"body":"be working for the person who founded"},{"startTime":232.303,"endTime":236.003,"body":"the company and got the VC money."},{"startTime":236.033,"endTime":238.933,"body":"we're going to go into the pros and"},{"startTime":236.033,"endTime":238.933,"body":"cons of working for the CMO, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":239.273,"endTime":241.953,"body":"read his section and then we'll kind of"},{"startTime":239.273,"endTime":241.953,"body":"respond to it and we'll talk through it."},{"startTime":241.953,"endTime":242.233,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":242.513,"endTime":246.703,"body":"So he says, because the CMO has a"},{"startTime":242.513,"endTime":246.703,"body":"traditional marketing background."},{"startTime":246.853,"endTime":249.453,"body":"All about brands, brand and events."},{"startTime":249.543,"endTime":253.833,"body":"They really don't get product"},{"startTime":249.543,"endTime":253.833,"body":"marketing, let alone product management."},{"startTime":254.043,"endTime":257.233,"body":"And they're just really desperate to"},{"startTime":254.043,"endTime":257.233,"body":"have something to give to the content"},{"startTime":257.233,"endTime":259.263,"body":"marketer for the next LinkedIn posts."},{"startTime":259.413,"endTime":264.113,"body":"They push to get flashy, but ultimately"},{"startTime":259.413,"endTime":264.113,"body":"useless features onto the roadmap with a"},{"startTime":264.113,"endTime":266.843,"body":"hard deadline of some conference or other."},{"startTime":267.073,"endTime":270.173,"body":"They refuse to talk about tech"},{"startTime":267.073,"endTime":270.173,"body":"debt because they can't market it."},{"startTime":270.248,"endTime":273.928,"body":"The first half of the paragraph"},{"startTime":270.248,"endTime":273.928,"body":"I'm on the fence about, the second"},{"startTime":273.988,"endTime":277.398,"body":"half of the paragraph, I, I will"},{"startTime":273.988,"endTime":277.398,"body":"push all my chips onto the table,"},{"startTime":277.858,"endTime":279.288,"body":"because I'm all in on that one."},{"startTime":279.418,"endTime":284.228,"body":"Pushing to get flashy and useless features"},{"startTime":279.418,"endTime":284.228,"body":"onto the roadmap with a hard deadline"},{"startTime":284.248,"endTime":286.668,"body":"because they're going to a conference"},{"startTime":284.248,"endTime":286.668,"body":"and they're bringing all their gear and"},{"startTime":286.668,"endTime":287.698,"body":"they're going to be there in person."},{"startTime":287.848,"endTime":291.378,"body":"I've seen that a thousand million"},{"startTime":287.848,"endTime":291.378,"body":"times over and over and over again."},{"startTime":291.448,"endTime":292.208,"body":"Always happens."},{"startTime":292.458,"endTime":295.348,"body":"Also, the second part can't"},{"startTime":292.458,"endTime":295.348,"body":"talk about technical debt."},{"startTime":295.473,"endTime":300.073,"body":"I was at a company once where the product"},{"startTime":295.473,"endTime":300.073,"body":"was built on a mountain of technical debt."},{"startTime":300.223,"endTime":306.421,"body":"And, the marketing staff, I remember"},{"startTime":300.223,"endTime":306.421,"body":"the CMO of sales, marketing, , whenever"},{"startTime":306.421,"endTime":310.151,"body":"the conversation would take a technical"},{"startTime":306.421,"endTime":310.151,"body":"turn, because it was required to talk"},{"startTime":310.161,"endTime":312.981,"body":"about some customers and why certain"},{"startTime":310.161,"endTime":312.981,"body":"features couldn't go out in front"},{"startTime":312.981,"endTime":317.751,"body":"of some other features or, or why we"},{"startTime":312.981,"endTime":317.751,"body":"had to go and refactor some process"},{"startTime":317.791,"endTime":321.571,"body":"or whatever in order to get critical"},{"startTime":317.791,"endTime":321.571,"body":"feature out by these arbitrary dateline."},{"startTime":321.571,"endTime":326.411,"body":"Well, we can't hit that conference"},{"startTime":321.571,"endTime":326.411,"body":"because you know, this table was"},{"startTime":326.411,"endTime":330.051,"body":"built with no indices and we have"},{"startTime":326.411,"endTime":330.051,"body":"to write the proper indexes because"},{"startTime":330.051,"endTime":332.281,"body":"when you load this many users, blah,"},{"startTime":330.051,"endTime":332.281,"body":"blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":332.281,"endTime":334.371,"body":"And they're like, what"},{"startTime":332.281,"endTime":334.371,"body":"are you talking about?"},{"startTime":334.441,"endTime":334.751,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":334.991,"endTime":339.311,"body":"I am laughing here because"},{"startTime":334.991,"endTime":339.311,"body":"I've actually lived this."},{"startTime":339.606,"endTime":340.396,"body":"scenario."},{"startTime":340.521,"endTime":342.111,"body":"Yes, exactly this."},{"startTime":342.131,"endTime":346.901,"body":"We are a conference in New Orleans,"},{"startTime":342.131,"endTime":346.901,"body":"Louisiana, and during the conference,"},{"startTime":346.901,"endTime":348.561,"body":"we're doing some dry runs at seven a."},{"startTime":348.561,"endTime":348.761,"body":"m."},{"startTime":348.761,"endTime":352.041,"body":"As one does, because you know, your"},{"startTime":348.761,"endTime":352.041,"body":"first prospects are coming in at eight."},{"startTime":352.311,"endTime":353.861,"body":"So you gotta make sure"},{"startTime":352.311,"endTime":353.861,"body":"everything's lined up."},{"startTime":354.011,"endTime":356.971,"body":"And sure enough, Things"},{"startTime":354.011,"endTime":356.971,"body":"aren't working as they should."},{"startTime":357.291,"endTime":359.401,"body":"What do you do in this scenario?"},{"startTime":359.421,"endTime":360.801,"body":"You have a few choices."},{"startTime":360.811,"endTime":364.191,"body":"You can cancel the appointment"},{"startTime":360.811,"endTime":364.191,"body":"that the prospect has with you."},{"startTime":364.341,"endTime":366.431,"body":"Heaven forbid sales isn't"},{"startTime":364.341,"endTime":366.431,"body":"gonna let you do that."},{"startTime":366.441,"endTime":369.541,"body":"Your CEO, CMO, whoever, no"},{"startTime":366.441,"endTime":369.541,"body":"one's going to let you do that."},{"startTime":369.591,"endTime":370.761,"body":"Plus there's this thing about."},{"startTime":370.911,"endTime":371.711,"body":"Pride, right?"},{"startTime":371.731,"endTime":373.051,"body":"You got to make sure it works."},{"startTime":373.091,"endTime":374.051,"body":"So what do you do?"},{"startTime":374.201,"endTime":378.821,"body":"You have somebody who comes in, logs"},{"startTime":374.201,"endTime":378.821,"body":"in from the back end and does things."},{"startTime":378.971,"endTime":384.531,"body":"Essentially, folks, this is classic"},{"startTime":378.971,"endTime":384.531,"body":"ignore the man behind the curtain."},{"startTime":384.671,"endTime":387.371,"body":"It doesn't have to be a man,"},{"startTime":384.671,"endTime":387.371,"body":"but you get my point, right?"},{"startTime":387.521,"endTime":393.041,"body":"Long story short, we landed a,"},{"startTime":387.521,"endTime":393.041,"body":"a major account overseas, and by"},{"startTime":393.041,"endTime":396.421,"body":"the time everything was done and"},{"startTime":393.041,"endTime":396.421,"body":"the contract was written, all of"},{"startTime":396.471,"endTime":400.151,"body":"this stuff that didn't work at the"},{"startTime":396.471,"endTime":400.151,"body":"conference was figured out, right?"},{"startTime":400.191,"endTime":402.921,"body":"It just happened to be"},{"startTime":400.191,"endTime":402.921,"body":"that tech debt scenario."},{"startTime":403.071,"endTime":406.881,"body":"Now, knowing that we were going to"},{"startTime":403.071,"endTime":406.881,"body":"win this large contract, we focused"},{"startTime":406.881,"endTime":412.021,"body":"on it and we delivered a successful,"},{"startTime":406.881,"endTime":412.021,"body":"project in that case, it was a project."},{"startTime":412.146,"endTime":415.306,"body":"I would say this is"},{"startTime":412.146,"endTime":415.306,"body":"actually quite legit, right?"},{"startTime":416.066,"endTime":418.096,"body":"It's, it's just what they know."},{"startTime":418.106,"endTime":422.576,"body":"But, marketing folks, if they don't"},{"startTime":418.106,"endTime":422.576,"body":"know technology, What happens now?"},{"startTime":422.886,"endTime":423.656,"body":"What happens?"},{"startTime":423.806,"endTime":426.816,"body":"Like, do they, do they owe it"},{"startTime":423.806,"endTime":426.816,"body":"to themselves to learn about it?"},{"startTime":426.836,"endTime":431.196,"body":"Or does the team, the technical team,"},{"startTime":426.836,"endTime":431.196,"body":"owe it to themselves to educate them?"},{"startTime":431.346,"endTime":432.176,"body":"Or is it a bit of both?"},{"startTime":432.226,"endTime":435.666,"body":"Well, let me, let me step in now"},{"startTime":432.226,"endTime":435.666,"body":"to be the arguing agile person."},{"startTime":435.676,"endTime":435.956,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":435.956,"endTime":439.386,"body":"To say, what about all those people"},{"startTime":435.956,"endTime":439.386,"body":"on the internet that are saying you"},{"startTime":439.386,"endTime":442.406,"body":"don't need to know about technology"},{"startTime":439.386,"endTime":442.406,"body":"to be good in product management?"},{"startTime":442.686,"endTime":443.386,"body":"B because..."},{"startTime":443.536,"endTime":446.996,"body":"I already know you're about to, you're"},{"startTime":443.536,"endTime":446.996,"body":"about to hit me with the baseball bat"},{"startTime":447.016,"endTime":450.366,"body":"of these people don't know product"},{"startTime":447.016,"endTime":450.366,"body":"management and they don't know technology."},{"startTime":450.366,"endTime":454.016,"body":"So like how many, how many things"},{"startTime":450.366,"endTime":454.016,"body":"can you not know and still be"},{"startTime":454.166,"endTime":455.636,"body":"like I was going to say useful."},{"startTime":455.636,"endTime":456.336,"body":"That's not a great word."},{"startTime":456.531,"endTime":460.421,"body":"Useless, still not be effective at"},{"startTime":456.531,"endTime":460.421,"body":"product management in any way, shape"},{"startTime":460.421,"endTime":461.821,"body":"or form because you still have to do."},{"startTime":461.971,"endTime":465.111,"body":"Product management at some, in some"},{"startTime":461.971,"endTime":465.111,"body":"way, shape or form, you still have"},{"startTime":465.111,"endTime":467.201,"body":"to do the core of product management."},{"startTime":467.351,"endTime":468.791,"body":"Yeah, absolutely right."},{"startTime":469.011,"endTime":473.261,"body":"And this is, this is, I feel that the"},{"startTime":469.011,"endTime":473.261,"body":"CMO, if you work for a CMO, like that's"},{"startTime":473.271,"endTime":474.251,"body":"what this category is talking about."},{"startTime":474.251,"endTime":477.231,"body":"If you work directly for the"},{"startTime":474.251,"endTime":477.231,"body":"CMO, you basically are signing"},{"startTime":477.241,"endTime":479.281,"body":"up to be the feature factory."},{"startTime":479.431,"endTime":484.611,"body":"And there's, you will never, never"},{"startTime":479.431,"endTime":484.611,"body":"break out of being in a feature factory."},{"startTime":484.641,"endTime":487.686,"body":"Because you, you're taking your"},{"startTime":484.641,"endTime":487.686,"body":"marching orders directly from"},{"startTime":487.686,"endTime":489.526,"body":"sales, potentially from marketing."},{"startTime":489.636,"endTime":491.176,"body":"I don't know if one is"},{"startTime":489.636,"endTime":491.176,"body":"worse than the other."},{"startTime":491.176,"endTime":492.306,"body":"I really don't know."},{"startTime":492.306,"endTime":493.146,"body":"I could go either way."},{"startTime":493.296,"endTime":497.036,"body":"But I'm also the guy who's lobbied on"},{"startTime":493.296,"endTime":497.036,"body":"different podcasts to say, if you're"},{"startTime":497.036,"endTime":500.836,"body":"a product manager and you've not built"},{"startTime":497.036,"endTime":500.836,"body":"a bridge to your sales organization,"},{"startTime":500.986,"endTime":505.126,"body":"Like you're partially to blame in"},{"startTime":500.986,"endTime":505.126,"body":"that, in that situation, your, your"},{"startTime":505.126,"endTime":509.926,"body":"responsibility is to get with the sales"},{"startTime":505.126,"endTime":509.926,"body":"people who are most likely, especially"},{"startTime":509.926,"endTime":513.276,"body":"if you're in a place where you don't"},{"startTime":509.926,"endTime":513.276,"body":"have founders anymore, they've moved on"},{"startTime":513.276,"endTime":515.056,"body":"or whatever, your salespeople probably."},{"startTime":515.201,"endTime":518.461,"body":"Represent the people that"},{"startTime":515.201,"endTime":518.461,"body":"understand the customer's problems."},{"startTime":518.611,"endTime":520.891,"body":"The problems that the customer"},{"startTime":518.611,"endTime":520.891,"body":"is trying to solve, their"},{"startTime":520.891,"endTime":522.711,"body":"business problems, the deepest."},{"startTime":522.786,"endTime":526.336,"body":"So if you haven't built that bridge,"},{"startTime":522.786,"endTime":526.336,"body":"folks, guess what's going to happen?"},{"startTime":526.486,"endTime":528.656,"body":"You're going to have power"},{"startTime":526.486,"endTime":528.656,"body":"dynamics at play, right?"},{"startTime":528.726,"endTime":534.726,"body":"And you're going to have whoever is, quote"},{"startTime":528.726,"endTime":534.726,"body":"unquote, wields more power is going to"},{"startTime":534.726,"endTime":537.236,"body":"run, run right over the others, right?"},{"startTime":537.361,"endTime":540.081,"body":"ultimately, here's my take on this,"},{"startTime":537.361,"endTime":540.081,"body":"I'm going to cut to the chase."},{"startTime":540.231,"endTime":543.081,"body":"The product people, the product"},{"startTime":540.231,"endTime":543.081,"body":"marketing, especially marketing"},{"startTime":543.111,"endTime":547.341,"body":"people, okay, they can have all the"},{"startTime":543.111,"endTime":547.341,"body":"bases, everything lined up, etc."},{"startTime":547.371,"endTime":548.481,"body":"But guess what?"},{"startTime":548.631,"endTime":550.571,"body":"Who's selling it to the paying customers?"},{"startTime":550.761,"endTime":553.761,"body":"Who's paying your wages ultimately, right?"},{"startTime":553.791,"endTime":554.851,"body":"It's the salespeople."},{"startTime":555.131,"endTime":562.456,"body":"So you are a team of Marketing sales"},{"startTime":555.131,"endTime":562.456,"body":"and I'll say technologists if the three"},{"startTime":562.456,"endTime":566.516,"body":"of these teams cannot work together,"},{"startTime":562.456,"endTime":566.516,"body":"nothing good can come out of it."},{"startTime":566.666,"endTime":566.966,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":567.116,"endTime":568.746,"body":"The other thing I want"},{"startTime":567.116,"endTime":568.746,"body":"to tell you is this."},{"startTime":568.896,"endTime":572.066,"body":"I've worked for companies"},{"startTime":568.896,"endTime":572.066,"body":"that have had no marketing."},{"startTime":572.216,"endTime":573.156,"body":"function, right?"},{"startTime":573.176,"endTime":575.416,"body":"There's been nothing in the organization."},{"startTime":575.416,"endTime":577.826,"body":"There's nobody with the title,"},{"startTime":575.416,"endTime":577.826,"body":"the word marketing in it."},{"startTime":577.866,"endTime":578.086,"body":"Nothing."},{"startTime":578.286,"endTime":582.346,"body":"We had sales, we had development,"},{"startTime":578.286,"endTime":582.346,"body":"and we had support and that's it."},{"startTime":582.496,"endTime":586.896,"body":"So that's where listening to"},{"startTime":582.496,"endTime":586.896,"body":"support right, especially from"},{"startTime":586.896,"endTime":591.756,"body":"salespeople is absolutely critical"},{"startTime":586.896,"endTime":591.756,"body":"because guess who listens to the"},{"startTime":591.756,"endTime":593.876,"body":"customer's issues every single day?"},{"startTime":593.966,"endTime":594.836,"body":"It's your salespeople."},{"startTime":594.986,"endTime":599.976,"body":"Our top three customers would"},{"startTime":594.986,"endTime":599.976,"body":"call us between the hours of 7 a."},{"startTime":599.976,"endTime":600.196,"body":"m."},{"startTime":600.226,"endTime":601.886,"body":"Eastern and 7."},{"startTime":601.886,"endTime":601.906,"body":"30 a."},{"startTime":601.906,"endTime":602.076,"body":"m."},{"startTime":602.076,"endTime":602.456,"body":"Eastern."},{"startTime":602.606,"endTime":606.876,"body":"Without fail two to three times a week,"},{"startTime":602.606,"endTime":606.876,"body":"and it wasn't until we formed a good"},{"startTime":606.876,"endTime":610.696,"body":"relationship through the support, the"},{"startTime":606.876,"endTime":610.696,"body":"support department with these folks,"},{"startTime":610.696,"endTime":612.486,"body":"they told us we got you on speed dial."},{"startTime":612.526,"endTime":616.596,"body":"Yeah, we have to call you this many"},{"startTime":612.526,"endTime":616.596,"body":"times for you to even listen to us."},{"startTime":616.686,"endTime":620.956,"body":"That spoke volumes about our"},{"startTime":616.686,"endTime":620.956,"body":"responsiveness or the lack of it, right?"},{"startTime":621.106,"endTime":624.396,"body":"So I just reason I go into that"},{"startTime":621.106,"endTime":624.396,"body":"anecdote is to just point out"},{"startTime":624.706,"endTime":626.756,"body":"it isn't one or the other isn't."},{"startTime":626.966,"endTime":628.626,"body":"Six of one, half a dozen of the other."},{"startTime":628.656,"endTime":633.936,"body":"It is the entire organization has"},{"startTime":628.656,"endTime":633.936,"body":"to put up a front that is real."},{"startTime":634.086,"endTime":635.126,"body":"It's not a facade."},{"startTime":635.226,"endTime":635.926,"body":"It is real."},{"startTime":636.006,"endTime":636.276,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":636.276,"endTime":639.366,"body":"And, and make sure you listen,"},{"startTime":636.276,"endTime":639.366,"body":"truly listen to your customer."},{"startTime":639.686,"endTime":640.506,"body":"You don't just hear them."},{"startTime":640.506,"endTime":641.076,"body":"Listen to them."},{"startTime":641.861,"endTime":646.601,"body":"I feel, if you really, I mean, empathy"},{"startTime":641.861,"endTime":646.601,"body":"gets around a lot of this problem."},{"startTime":646.651,"endTime":646.951,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":646.961,"endTime":648.501,"body":"I guess my final word on this too, right?"},{"startTime":648.741,"endTime":651.081,"body":"Yeah, I will say my final"},{"startTime":648.741,"endTime":651.081,"body":"word on this too is."},{"startTime":651.231,"endTime":653.511,"body":"44 percent , of people say"},{"startTime":651.231,"endTime":653.511,"body":"they don't want to be here."},{"startTime":653.751,"endTime":656.281,"body":"If you're in this position, and there's"},{"startTime":653.751,"endTime":656.281,"body":"really, not a lot you can do, and"},{"startTime":656.281,"endTime":659.681,"body":"you're trying to make the best of the"},{"startTime":656.281,"endTime":659.681,"body":"situation, Build a bridge with marketing."},{"startTime":659.841,"endTime":660.201,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":660.201,"endTime":662.901,"body":"Go, go to all their, try to try"},{"startTime":660.201,"endTime":662.901,"body":"to join all their calls, try to,"},{"startTime":663.241,"endTime":664.441,"body":"learn what they do in marketing."},{"startTime":664.711,"endTime":667.431,"body":"I mean, you're going to have to try to"},{"startTime":664.711,"endTime":667.431,"body":"inject some product management at some"},{"startTime":667.431,"endTime":672.051,"body":"point to get them okay with ambiguity and"},{"startTime":667.431,"endTime":672.051,"body":"to get them a little bit dialed away from."},{"startTime":672.391,"endTime":677.201,"body":"The whole date mentality of, I must have"},{"startTime":672.391,"endTime":677.201,"body":"this by this date, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":677.291,"endTime":681.271,"body":"Yeah, I think you can have a"},{"startTime":677.291,"endTime":681.271,"body":"really fruitful dialogue with"},{"startTime":681.311,"endTime":683.291,"body":"people about the dates too, right?"},{"startTime":683.311,"endTime":684.911,"body":"You can make any date you want, right?"},{"startTime":684.951,"endTime":686.151,"body":"It's just what you're getting for it."},{"startTime":686.161,"endTime":688.111,"body":"So, together, yeah, I agree with you."},{"startTime":688.111,"endTime":688.931,"body":"Form an alliance."},{"startTime":689.081,"endTime":693.156,"body":"And don't forget  salespeople get a"},{"startTime":689.081,"endTime":693.156,"body":"lot of flack, but they are the ones"},{"startTime":693.156,"endTime":695.476,"body":"that are bringing in the moolah, right?"},{"startTime":695.516,"endTime":698.626,"body":"Getting those signatures on the"},{"startTime":695.516,"endTime":698.626,"body":"contracts where we all get paid."},{"startTime":698.626,"endTime":701.006,"body":"So they're part of a team, work with them."},{"startTime":701.156,"endTime":704.266,"body":"If you ignore them, then you're"},{"startTime":701.156,"endTime":704.266,"body":"going to have this division, right?"},{"startTime":704.316,"endTime":706.256,"body":"Us and them isms, whatever."},{"startTime":706.406,"endTime":707.216,"body":"You don't want that."},{"startTime":707.366,"endTime":710.836,"body":"The other thing I was going to say about"},{"startTime":707.366,"endTime":710.836,"body":"this topic was if you've not provided your"},{"startTime":710.836,"endTime":715.646,"body":"sales team with a roadmap off of which"},{"startTime":710.836,"endTime":715.646,"body":"to sell things, that that's an issue."},{"startTime":715.946,"endTime":719.366,"body":"Like, of course they're going to"},{"startTime":715.946,"endTime":719.366,"body":"be lost if you've, if you've not."},{"startTime":719.516,"endTime":722.171,"body":"Clearly started defining,"},{"startTime":719.516,"endTime":722.171,"body":"these are the big bets we're"},{"startTime":722.171,"endTime":723.611,"body":"going to make in this order."},{"startTime":723.861,"endTime":724.261,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":724.571,"endTime":727.581,"body":"This is how we're going to deliver"},{"startTime":724.571,"endTime":727.581,"body":"on the strategy of the business."},{"startTime":727.801,"endTime":728.691,"body":"So CMO, right?"},{"startTime":729.116,"endTime":733.396,"body":"Why is it good to report through"},{"startTime":729.116,"endTime":733.396,"body":"the CMO if you're a product person?"},{"startTime":733.396,"endTime":736.166,"body":"Oh, I can get, I'll give"},{"startTime":733.396,"endTime":736.166,"body":"you the pro of this one."},{"startTime":736.166,"endTime":736.196,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":736.196,"endTime":739.116,"body":"You know, you want a good, a"},{"startTime":736.196,"endTime":739.116,"body":"good, good hot take on this one?"},{"startTime":739.136,"endTime":739.416,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":739.506,"endTime":743.556,"body":"If they are open to you doing"},{"startTime":739.506,"endTime":743.556,"body":"your product management thing,"},{"startTime":743.796,"endTime":745.706,"body":"and if they are open to you..."},{"startTime":745.856,"endTime":749.936,"body":"Bringing them the roadmap and"},{"startTime":745.856,"endTime":749.936,"body":"talking to having your own relations"},{"startTime":749.936,"endTime":752.846,"body":"with customers and having your"},{"startTime":749.936,"endTime":752.846,"body":"own people to go to and you riding"},{"startTime":752.846,"endTime":754.466,"body":"along if they are cool with that."},{"startTime":754.616,"endTime":757.476,"body":"Knowing that you're the one that"},{"startTime":754.616,"endTime":757.476,"body":"kind of makes things happen and"},{"startTime":758.256,"endTime":759.855,"body":"you empathize with them and you."},{"startTime":760.016,"endTime":762.076,"body":"Figured out how to,"},{"startTime":760.016,"endTime":762.076,"body":"how to work with sales."},{"startTime":762.856,"endTime":766.866,"body":"You've now aligned again, assuming"},{"startTime":762.856,"endTime":766.866,"body":"the type of organization where you're"},{"startTime":766.866,"endTime":771.736,"body":"aligned under a CMO is also the type"},{"startTime":766.866,"endTime":771.736,"body":"of organization that sees the sales"},{"startTime":771.736,"endTime":775.186,"body":"department as a revenue generating"},{"startTime":771.736,"endTime":775.186,"body":"department and all the developers as"},{"startTime":775.186,"endTime":779.466,"body":"the, the sink of money that doesn't"},{"startTime":775.186,"endTime":779.466,"body":"bring any money into the organization."},{"startTime":779.466,"endTime":780.136,"body":"That's, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":780.136,"endTime":781.216,"body":"They're just a cost center."},{"startTime":781.456,"endTime":782.866,"body":"The old IT cost center."},{"startTime":783.016,"endTime":785.306,"body":"Like, I know, we know"},{"startTime":783.016,"endTime":785.306,"body":"that model is ridiculous."},{"startTime":785.456,"endTime":788.566,"body":"But if you, now sit with the"},{"startTime":785.456,"endTime":788.566,"body":"team that makes all the revenue."},{"startTime":788.716,"endTime":789.566,"body":"Life is golden."},{"startTime":789.716,"endTime":792.636,"body":"You're probably cashing"},{"startTime":789.716,"endTime":792.636,"body":"checks and buying yachts."},{"startTime":792.646,"endTime":794.076,"body":"But you're also living on cloud nine."},{"startTime":794.316,"endTime":796.506,"body":"I agree with you on a couple of things."},{"startTime":796.506,"endTime":800.106,"body":"First of all, if you're aligned with"},{"startTime":796.506,"endTime":800.106,"body":"the CMO in terms of your reporting"},{"startTime":800.256,"endTime":805.136,"body":"hierarchy, and the CMO is enabling"},{"startTime":800.256,"endTime":805.136,"body":"you, that's a good sign, right?"},{"startTime":805.146,"endTime":809.406,"body":"In other words, you're not dictated"},{"startTime":805.146,"endTime":809.406,"body":"dates and told, make this happen, bye."},{"startTime":809.586,"endTime":811.786,"body":"this date or else, right?"},{"startTime":812.116,"endTime":813.466,"body":"That, that's one good sign."},{"startTime":813.616,"endTime":818.406,"body":"The other thing I want to tell you is"},{"startTime":813.616,"endTime":818.406,"body":"this, if, is the CMO dictating certain"},{"startTime":818.456,"endTime":823.936,"body":"other things about, product or are you"},{"startTime":818.456,"endTime":823.936,"body":"saying every product is unique, which"},{"startTime":824.086,"endTime":826.766,"body":"it is, every product is unique, right?"},{"startTime":826.796,"endTime":830.146,"body":"And you take that to the CMO"},{"startTime":826.796,"endTime":830.146,"body":"and they actually back you."},{"startTime":830.166,"endTime":831.336,"body":"They say, yes, you're right."},{"startTime":831.596,"endTime":833.956,"body":"Have you done this and this"},{"startTime":831.596,"endTime":833.956,"body":"and this, how can we help you?"},{"startTime":834.246,"endTime":836.146,"body":"If you're seeing that kind of support."},{"startTime":836.296,"endTime":837.456,"body":"Rock on, my friends."},{"startTime":837.486,"endTime":839.796,"body":"You are in the right place, okay?"},{"startTime":839.946,"endTime":844.446,"body":"On the other side, because we are"},{"startTime":839.946,"endTime":844.446,"body":"Arguing Agile For the other 63."},{"startTime":844.446,"endTime":845.386,"body":"6 percent of you."},{"startTime":845.536,"endTime":846.296,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":846.376,"endTime":853.141,"body":"60 plus, percent of you, if you're in"},{"startTime":846.376,"endTime":853.141,"body":"those scenarios, please rethink your"},{"startTime":853.291,"endTime":858.331,"body":"work your purpose for being and yeah,"},{"startTime":853.291,"endTime":858.331,"body":"well we always say on the podcast keep"},{"startTime":858.331,"endTime":862.881,"body":"that resume up there resume updated"},{"startTime":858.331,"endTime":862.881,"body":"Oh Like learn where you can win the"},{"startTime":862.881,"endTime":866.111,"body":"battles you can You know, lose the"},{"startTime":862.881,"endTime":866.111,"body":"ones you can't, try to learn from"},{"startTime":866.111,"endTime":867.761,"body":"them and keep their resume updated."},{"startTime":867.911,"endTime":869.221,"body":"And not in that order, by the way."},{"startTime":869.471,"endTime":870.361,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":870.371,"endTime":871.391,"body":"So that's the CMO."},{"startTime":871.421,"endTime":877.951,"body":"How about we, we move to another way"},{"startTime":871.421,"endTime":877.951,"body":"that product is, kind of structured"},{"startTime":877.951,"endTime":879.221,"body":"within your work structure."},{"startTime":879.346,"endTime":881.146,"body":"We, so we talked about the CMO."},{"startTime":881.296,"endTime":884.836,"body":"So what he says, reporting to the C O O."},{"startTime":884.976,"endTime":889.576,"body":"So here we go reporting operations"},{"startTime":884.976,"endTime":889.576,"body":"because everything is about processes,"},{"startTime":889.636,"endTime":894.176,"body":"processes, everything's about processes"},{"startTime":889.636,"endTime":894.176,"body":"and trying to make things efficient."},{"startTime":894.296,"endTime":897.766,"body":"They want a dozen dashboards approved"},{"startTime":894.296,"endTime":897.766,"body":"that the engineering team are all quote"},{"startTime":897.846,"endTime":903.896,"body":"on track and to quote and want to measure"},{"startTime":897.846,"endTime":903.896,"body":"engineering utilization per Jira Epic."},{"startTime":904.046,"endTime":907.241,"body":"Oh, and by the way, only"},{"startTime":904.046,"endTime":907.241,"body":"approved people can change JIRA."},{"startTime":907.461,"endTime":910.821,"body":"They dislike experimentation because"},{"startTime":907.461,"endTime":910.821,"body":"everything has to be a sure thing."},{"startTime":911.101,"endTime":912.711,"body":"Otherwise, we're wasting time and effort."},{"startTime":912.921,"endTime":918.611,"body":"And they're very keen on customer special"},{"startTime":912.921,"endTime":918.611,"body":"projects because they're chargeable."},{"startTime":918.761,"endTime":922.471,"body":"So in everything you've just read, what"},{"startTime":918.761,"endTime":922.471,"body":"I'm seeing is just dollar signs, which"},{"startTime":922.471,"endTime":927.255,"body":"is So let's just kind of unpack that"},{"startTime":922.471,"endTime":927.255,"body":"a little bit in terms of the cons, and"},{"startTime":927.255,"endTime":928.595,"body":"then we'll get into the pros, right?"},{"startTime":928.745,"endTime":929.645,"body":"So in terms of the cons."},{"startTime":930.109,"endTime":933.819,"body":"Everything needs to be on track"},{"startTime":930.109,"endTime":933.819,"body":"because optics is everything, right?"},{"startTime":933.849,"endTime":937.589,"body":"If you say you're on track to"},{"startTime":933.849,"endTime":937.589,"body":"deliver something, you will get"},{"startTime":937.609,"endTime":939.119,"body":"no more trouble from anybody."},{"startTime":939.179,"endTime":942.039,"body":"Nobody's going to call you into"},{"startTime":939.179,"endTime":942.039,"body":"their office and say, Why aren't"},{"startTime":942.039,"endTime":944.089,"body":"you going to deliver by that date?"},{"startTime":944.239,"endTime":946.939,"body":"So this is what I call watermelon reports."},{"startTime":947.089,"endTime":950.479,"body":"They look great because"},{"startTime":947.089,"endTime":950.479,"body":"they're green on the outside."},{"startTime":950.579,"endTime":952.019,"body":"But hey, got one open."},{"startTime":952.169,"endTime":952.769,"body":"They're red."},{"startTime":952.919,"endTime":956.149,"body":"So if you're doing project"},{"startTime":952.919,"endTime":956.149,"body":"management, You know who you are?"},{"startTime":956.299,"endTime":957.409,"body":"Rag reports, right?"},{"startTime":957.409,"endTime":958.339,"body":"Red, amber, green."},{"startTime":958.379,"endTime":959.569,"body":"Everything's green."},{"startTime":959.829,"endTime":962.189,"body":"And maybe we have this one"},{"startTime":959.829,"endTime":962.189,"body":"thing amber, but I got it."},{"startTime":962.379,"endTime":962.809,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":962.959,"endTime":963.479,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":963.589,"endTime":966.219,"body":"Except, sooner or later it's"},{"startTime":963.589,"endTime":966.219,"body":"gonna catch up with you."},{"startTime":966.279,"endTime":967.829,"body":"And then something's gonna turn red."},{"startTime":967.979,"endTime":969.209,"body":"You may not even turn it red."},{"startTime":969.229,"endTime":971.049,"body":"Someone's going to turn it red for you."},{"startTime":971.309,"endTime":976.104,"body":"So, that is one of the things I see"},{"startTime":971.309,"endTime":976.104,"body":"here reporting through the , C O O"},{"startTime":976.344,"endTime":980.334,"body":"chain of command is everything has"},{"startTime":976.344,"endTime":980.334,"body":"to be operationalized on a date."},{"startTime":980.504,"endTime":980.754,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":980.824,"endTime":982.004,"body":"Like, date, date, date, date, date."},{"startTime":982.004,"endTime":982.214,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":982.424,"endTime":983.804,"body":"And, one date slips."},{"startTime":983.954,"endTime":986.414,"body":"It's like a it's like a"},{"startTime":983.954,"endTime":986.414,"body":"house of cards, right?"},{"startTime":986.434,"endTime":989.484,"body":"You move one card and the"},{"startTime":986.434,"endTime":989.484,"body":"whole thing comes falling down."},{"startTime":989.584,"endTime":995.454,"body":"So If you're late by one date,"},{"startTime":989.584,"endTime":995.454,"body":"that's c o o Organization is going"},{"startTime":995.454,"endTime":997.054,"body":"to be on you, get on the brakes."},{"startTime":997.114,"endTime":997.654,"body":"Right, yeah."},{"startTime":997.664,"endTime":1001.044,"body":"This is every culture I've ever"},{"startTime":997.664,"endTime":1001.044,"body":"worked in where it's like some, when"},{"startTime":1001.044,"endTime":1003.764,"body":"something slips or something, it slips."},{"startTime":1003.984,"endTime":1006.494,"body":"Like, all the dates by the"},{"startTime":1003.984,"endTime":1006.494,"body":"time they're handed to the"},{"startTime":1006.494,"endTime":1008.484,"body":"team are already in the past."},{"startTime":1008.544,"endTime":1011.534,"body":"And then when you miss a date,"},{"startTime":1008.544,"endTime":1011.534,"body":"invariably, and when you miss a date,"},{"startTime":1011.684,"endTime":1013.574,"body":"now someone's got to get yelled at."},{"startTime":1013.684,"endTime":1013.864,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1013.914,"endTime":1016.094,"body":"Like that, that's this, that's what"},{"startTime":1013.914,"endTime":1016.094,"body":"we're talking, that's the culture"},{"startTime":1016.094,"endTime":1016.884,"body":"here that we're talking about."},{"startTime":1016.884,"endTime":1017.884,"body":"Like, this stinks."},{"startTime":1018.034,"endTime":1020.054,"body":"This, I've been in this culture, it sucks."},{"startTime":1020.204,"endTime":1020.864,"body":"It absolutely sucks."},{"startTime":1020.864,"endTime":1021.344,"body":"It truly does."},{"startTime":1021.374,"endTime":1026.284,"body":"The COO probably has a project manager"},{"startTime":1021.374,"endTime":1026.284,"body":"or two that are their right hand person."},{"startTime":1026.454,"endTime":1028.544,"body":"They're quote, eyes and ears."},{"startTime":1028.694,"endTime":1032.604,"body":"And, they make you fill out a bunch"},{"startTime":1028.694,"endTime":1032.604,"body":"of reports that are all nonsense."},{"startTime":1032.754,"endTime":1034.254,"body":"And that's his culture."},{"startTime":1034.589,"endTime":1035.289,"body":"Every C."},{"startTime":1035.289,"endTime":1035.439,"body":"O."},{"startTime":1035.439,"endTime":1035.449,"body":"O."},{"startTime":1035.599,"endTime":1036.479,"body":"That I've ever seen."},{"startTime":1036.479,"endTime":1039.319,"body":"They have their own system"},{"startTime":1036.479,"endTime":1039.319,"body":"that is completely disconnected"},{"startTime":1039.319,"endTime":1040.449,"body":"from the system of record."},{"startTime":1040.614,"endTime":1044.304,"body":"That all the employees use, and that's"},{"startTime":1040.614,"endTime":1044.304,"body":"where they keep a status in, and if the"},{"startTime":1044.304,"endTime":1048.014,"body":"status in their system disagrees with"},{"startTime":1044.304,"endTime":1048.014,"body":"the status in the real day to day system,"},{"startTime":1048.164,"endTime":1050.884,"body":"then there's a big blow up, a big problem."},{"startTime":1051.184,"endTime":1054.144,"body":"You know, some people might be listening"},{"startTime":1051.184,"endTime":1054.144,"body":"to this and say, there's not a problem,"},{"startTime":1054.294,"endTime":1055.564,"body":"whatever they have on their record."},{"startTime":1055.719,"endTime":1056.189,"body":"is right."},{"startTime":1056.219,"endTime":1058.199,"body":"And whatever you have"},{"startTime":1056.219,"endTime":1058.199,"body":"in your system is wrong."},{"startTime":1058.219,"endTime":1058.969,"body":"And that's fine."},{"startTime":1059.079,"endTime":1062.599,"body":"And that would be, that is also, I've"},{"startTime":1059.079,"endTime":1062.599,"body":"seen project managers that report to"},{"startTime":1062.599,"endTime":1066.369,"body":"CEOs like this, walk up to the team"},{"startTime":1062.599,"endTime":1066.369,"body":"and say, when will this sprint be done?"},{"startTime":1066.369,"endTime":1067.429,"body":"When will this feature be done?"},{"startTime":1067.659,"endTime":1069.169,"body":"When will this feature be done?"},{"startTime":1069.439,"endTime":1071.789,"body":"The feature will be done"},{"startTime":1069.439,"endTime":1071.789,"body":"when the sprint closes."},{"startTime":1072.099,"endTime":1073.309,"body":"Well, when will the sprint close?"},{"startTime":1073.479,"endTime":1077.519,"body":"Well, the sprint closes in a week and one"},{"startTime":1073.479,"endTime":1077.519,"body":"day, because our sprints are two weeks"},{"startTime":1077.519,"endTime":1078.969,"body":"and we're only a couple days into it."},{"startTime":1079.119,"endTime":1080.439,"body":"Well, that's not good enough."},{"startTime":1080.589,"endTime":1082.139,"body":"I have the date as this."},{"startTime":1082.329,"endTime":1083.619,"body":"So you're going to hit that date."},{"startTime":1083.829,"endTime":1084.529,"body":"Make it happen."},{"startTime":1084.639,"endTime":1085.289,"body":"Make it happen."},{"startTime":1085.289,"endTime":1085.869,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1086.019,"endTime":1087.679,"body":"And like, now, who are"},{"startTime":1086.019,"endTime":1087.679,"body":"we going to question?"},{"startTime":1087.859,"endTime":1089.239,"body":"Because now we all work for the COO."},{"startTime":1089.289,"endTime":1090.489,"body":"So basically, there's no one to question."},{"startTime":1090.564,"endTime":1091.804,"body":"That was a real place I worked."},{"startTime":1091.954,"endTime":1094.444,"body":"I certainly agree, I've worked"},{"startTime":1091.954,"endTime":1094.444,"body":"at a place or two like that too."},{"startTime":1094.594,"endTime":1098.384,"body":"COOs are always living"},{"startTime":1094.594,"endTime":1098.384,"body":"and dying by two things."},{"startTime":1098.644,"endTime":1098.954,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1099.014,"endTime":1101.964,"body":"Dates, schedule, and budget."},{"startTime":1102.114,"endTime":1102.974,"body":"Dollars, right?"},{"startTime":1103.294,"endTime":1104.174,"body":"As long as..."},{"startTime":1104.324,"endTime":1108.274,"body":"If you do slip a date, first of all,"},{"startTime":1104.324,"endTime":1108.274,"body":"let's just take those in sequence."},{"startTime":1108.274,"endTime":1112.354,"body":"If you slip a date, it's not necessarily"},{"startTime":1108.274,"endTime":1112.354,"body":"going to please them, unless you tell"},{"startTime":1112.354,"endTime":1114.084,"body":"them, hey we slipped a date, but..."},{"startTime":1114.234,"endTime":1114.924,"body":"It wasn't our fault."},{"startTime":1114.924,"endTime":1114.964,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1115.114,"endTime":1115.924,"body":"It was someone's fault."},{"startTime":1116.134,"endTime":1120.864,"body":"The customer said they wanted this other"},{"startTime":1116.134,"endTime":1120.864,"body":"thing and, they wanted this line over here"},{"startTime":1120.864,"endTime":1123.554,"body":"on the screen in pink instead of fuchsia."},{"startTime":1123.854,"endTime":1124.804,"body":"So, guess what?"},{"startTime":1124.954,"endTime":1126.554,"body":"We missed the date, right?"},{"startTime":1126.704,"endTime":1132.144,"body":"The comeback almost immediately from"},{"startTime":1126.704,"endTime":1132.144,"body":"that org is great, raises change request."},{"startTime":1132.294,"endTime":1133.454,"body":"How much are they paying for that?"},{"startTime":1133.604,"endTime":1133.804,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1133.924,"endTime":1135.654,"body":"How much do you think it's"},{"startTime":1133.924,"endTime":1135.654,"body":"going to take to change the"},{"startTime":1135.654,"endTime":1137.204,"body":"pink color to a fuchsia color?"},{"startTime":1137.824,"endTime":1138.264,"body":"Two minutes?"},{"startTime":1138.304,"endTime":1139.154,"body":"Okay, charge them a day."},{"startTime":1139.304,"endTime":1141.774,"body":"Because everything works"},{"startTime":1139.304,"endTime":1141.774,"body":"in an increment of a day."},{"startTime":1141.814,"endTime":1143.754,"body":"I a hundred percent agree with"},{"startTime":1141.814,"endTime":1143.754,"body":"everything you're saying, but also,"},{"startTime":1143.754,"endTime":1146.054,"body":"since this is Arguing Agile, I'm"},{"startTime":1143.754,"endTime":1146.054,"body":"going to pivot immediately into"},{"startTime":1146.054,"endTime":1147.354,"body":"the pros of working for a COO."},{"startTime":1147.354,"endTime":1147.874,"body":"Absolutely, please do."},{"startTime":1148.164,"endTime":1152.719,"body":"The pros of working for a COO, I will"},{"startTime":1148.164,"endTime":1152.719,"body":"tell you, the advantage here, if you can"},{"startTime":1152.719,"endTime":1156.599,"body":"think of it as an advantage is you get to"},{"startTime":1152.719,"endTime":1156.599,"body":"sharpen your project management skills."},{"startTime":1156.749,"endTime":1160.489,"body":"Cause like, again, if you're not"},{"startTime":1156.749,"endTime":1160.489,"body":"fighting, if you're fighting with a"},{"startTime":1160.489,"endTime":1162.199,"body":"dull blade, you're going to get cut up."},{"startTime":1162.379,"endTime":1163.959,"body":"So you better have a sharp blade too."},{"startTime":1163.959,"endTime":1166.989,"body":"So you get, you get a lot"},{"startTime":1163.959,"endTime":1166.989,"body":"of sword fighting practice."},{"startTime":1166.989,"endTime":1168.489,"body":"That's what I'm saying in this category."},{"startTime":1168.739,"endTime":1172.179,"body":"And also you get a lot of practice, like"},{"startTime":1168.739,"endTime":1172.179,"body":"you were saying, like the numbers, the"},{"startTime":1172.419,"endTime":1175.549,"body":"money wins at every single argument."},{"startTime":1175.549,"endTime":1179.379,"body":"So you get a lot of practice"},{"startTime":1175.549,"endTime":1179.379,"body":"translating into financials."},{"startTime":1179.454,"endTime":1180.564,"body":"Your argument points."},{"startTime":1180.744,"endTime":1184.164,"body":"So it it, those two things, and again,"},{"startTime":1180.744,"endTime":1184.164,"body":"that's what I got from the culture where"},{"startTime":1184.169,"endTime":1186.084,"body":"we were like this, I got those two things."},{"startTime":1186.084,"endTime":1191.067,"body":"I know how to capitalize a software"},{"startTime":1186.084,"endTime":1191.067,"body":"development project, the easy way and"},{"startTime":1191.067,"endTime":1196.127,"body":"the most conservative way, both for"},{"startTime":1191.067,"endTime":1196.127,"body":"internal use and external use software."},{"startTime":1196.437,"endTime":1198.167,"body":"And I can do that stuff out of the system."},{"startTime":1198.347,"endTime":1200.607,"body":"I can set it up to do, with no overhead."},{"startTime":1200.757,"endTime":1201.847,"body":"So it doesn't impact anything."},{"startTime":1201.887,"endTime":1203.677,"body":"Like, nobody has to do anything"},{"startTime":1201.887,"endTime":1203.677,"body":"on time sheets or whatever."},{"startTime":1203.797,"endTime":1204.987,"body":"I can do that stuff in my sleep."},{"startTime":1205.307,"endTime":1207.747,"body":"I've done it at a couple different"},{"startTime":1205.307,"endTime":1207.747,"body":"companies  and I learned how to do"},{"startTime":1207.747,"endTime":1209.537,"body":"that because I was in this situation."},{"startTime":1209.747,"endTime":1210.657,"body":"So there are pros here."},{"startTime":1210.657,"endTime":1211.437,"body":"The pros are..."},{"startTime":1211.587,"endTime":1215.307,"body":"You start thinking like operations"},{"startTime":1211.587,"endTime":1215.307,"body":"thinks everything has a finite date."},{"startTime":1215.457,"endTime":1218.377,"body":"Everything has a , deliverable, and"},{"startTime":1215.457,"endTime":1218.377,"body":"every change has somebody waiting."},{"startTime":1218.527,"endTime":1222.987,"body":"You know, and, and I work with some"},{"startTime":1218.527,"endTime":1222.987,"body":"really great project managers who, will,"},{"startTime":1223.047,"endTime":1226.127,"body":"they will never let you out of the room"},{"startTime":1223.047,"endTime":1226.127,"body":"without pinning you down for a date."},{"startTime":1226.477,"endTime":1227.827,"body":"I want you to commit."},{"startTime":1227.977,"endTime":1231.137,"body":"You, you will go on a line"},{"startTime":1227.977,"endTime":1231.137,"body":"item on the Gantt chart."},{"startTime":1231.287,"endTime":1235.007,"body":"And I will put a date next to your name"},{"startTime":1231.287,"endTime":1235.007,"body":"because you've committed on this date and"},{"startTime":1235.007,"endTime":1236.287,"body":"they will write down the whole exchange."},{"startTime":1236.372,"endTime":1237.382,"body":"I, yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1237.382,"endTime":1238.042,"body":"Look, I agree."},{"startTime":1238.072,"endTime":1240.072,"body":"I also want to add a"},{"startTime":1238.072,"endTime":1240.072,"body":"little to that, right?"},{"startTime":1240.112,"endTime":1240.442,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1240.492,"endTime":1245.702,"body":"And if you're watching"},{"startTime":1240.492,"endTime":1245.702,"body":"Julie, so, yeah, yes."},{"startTime":1245.702,"endTime":1252.422,"body":"And Brian, COOs, we're just, we're just"},{"startTime":1245.702,"endTime":1252.422,"body":"suspending the whole working agreement."},{"startTime":1252.422,"endTime":1253.792,"body":"This, I know we did."},{"startTime":1254.042,"endTime":1255.302,"body":"We'll come back to it."},{"startTime":1255.302,"endTime":1256.312,"body":"It'll be like a piñata."},{"startTime":1256.332,"endTime":1258.122,"body":"We'll keep hitting it till it blows up."},{"startTime":1258.172,"endTime":1258.532,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1258.852,"endTime":1259.602,"body":"Listen, listen."},{"startTime":1259.832,"endTime":1260.382,"body":"It's like a piñata."},{"startTime":1260.572,"endTime":1262.112,"body":"It speaks Spanish and"},{"startTime":1260.572,"endTime":1262.112,"body":"we don't understand it."},{"startTime":1262.122,"endTime":1262.742,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1263.052,"endTime":1268.702,"body":"So COOs aren't just talking about"},{"startTime":1263.052,"endTime":1268.702,"body":"dates for the purpose of hitting dates."},{"startTime":1268.852,"endTime":1271.322,"body":"They are actually delivering, right?"},{"startTime":1271.342,"endTime":1277.052,"body":"Your customers are paying you, your"},{"startTime":1271.342,"endTime":1277.052,"body":"company, ergo you, your paycheck, right?"},{"startTime":1277.372,"endTime":1281.252,"body":"Based on meeting or not"},{"startTime":1277.372,"endTime":1281.252,"body":"meeting SLAs and SLCs."},{"startTime":1281.302,"endTime":1284.282,"body":"Work with your COO to see"},{"startTime":1281.302,"endTime":1284.282,"body":"if you can meet those."},{"startTime":1284.342,"endTime":1287.452,"body":"Because if you can't meet them,"},{"startTime":1284.342,"endTime":1287.452,"body":"it's akin to not getting paid."},{"startTime":1287.672,"endTime":1289.242,"body":"I worked for a very..."},{"startTime":1289.392,"endTime":1293.202,"body":"Small startup company that lasted"},{"startTime":1289.392,"endTime":1293.202,"body":"for about nine months and then they"},{"startTime":1293.212,"endTime":1295.182,"body":"blew up like exponentially, right?"},{"startTime":1295.212,"endTime":1298.742,"body":"But those nine months we were holding"},{"startTime":1295.212,"endTime":1298.742,"body":"our breath because we didn't know if"},{"startTime":1298.742,"endTime":1303.012,"body":"we're gonna get paid at the end of the"},{"startTime":1298.742,"endTime":1303.012,"body":"two weeks And that's because we were"},{"startTime":1303.012,"endTime":1308.762,"body":"going about things by the book But also"},{"startTime":1303.012,"endTime":1308.762,"body":"we had you know, the ops guys saying"},{"startTime":1308.782,"endTime":1312.832,"body":"we talk to customers every day Here's"},{"startTime":1308.782,"endTime":1312.832,"body":"what they need and here's why and this"},{"startTime":1312.832,"endTime":1317.372,"body":"would have to do with regulatory stuff"},{"startTime":1312.832,"endTime":1317.372,"body":"in Europe So, you know this had to do"},{"startTime":1317.372,"endTime":1321.752,"body":"with Governments getting together, blah,"},{"startTime":1317.372,"endTime":1321.752,"body":"blah, blah, blah, but long, long story"},{"startTime":1321.752,"endTime":1327.382,"body":"short, if you're not aligned with those"},{"startTime":1321.752,"endTime":1327.382,"body":"dates that matter to your customers that"},{"startTime":1327.392,"endTime":1330.112,"body":"translate to dollars coming in Good luck."},{"startTime":1330.187,"endTime":1335.727,"body":"I like this category because the COO"},{"startTime":1330.187,"endTime":1335.727,"body":"is the direct path to money like that."},{"startTime":1335.727,"endTime":1337.257,"body":"That's what's at the end of their rainbow."},{"startTime":1337.407,"endTime":1338.757,"body":"And if you can find a way to."},{"startTime":1338.907,"endTime":1343.027,"body":"Live in this environment and you"},{"startTime":1338.907,"endTime":1343.027,"body":"can follow them, you'll get good"},{"startTime":1343.027,"endTime":1345.027,"body":"at, at the direct path to money."},{"startTime":1345.267,"endTime":1346.827,"body":"That's, that's what I"},{"startTime":1345.267,"endTime":1346.827,"body":"like about this category."},{"startTime":1346.977,"endTime":1349.177,"body":"Although, it is a dystopian hellscape."},{"startTime":1349.402,"endTime":1354.012,"body":"Listen, I want to talk about the COO"},{"startTime":1349.402,"endTime":1354.012,"body":"role as the last thing, and that is the"},{"startTime":1354.012,"endTime":1359.482,"body":"effectiveness it has of connecting your"},{"startTime":1354.012,"endTime":1359.482,"body":"organization with your customer, right?"},{"startTime":1359.632,"endTime":1363.482,"body":"If you don't do that, why"},{"startTime":1359.632,"endTime":1363.482,"body":"would they trust you, right?"},{"startTime":1363.512,"endTime":1364.262,"body":"You miss the date."},{"startTime":1364.332,"endTime":1366.172,"body":"Okay, everybody gives you"},{"startTime":1364.332,"endTime":1366.172,"body":"the benefit of the doubt."},{"startTime":1366.182,"endTime":1367.122,"body":"You miss the date."},{"startTime":1367.172,"endTime":1369.592,"body":"Especially if you can talk"},{"startTime":1367.172,"endTime":1369.592,"body":"smart and go, this is why."},{"startTime":1369.907,"endTime":1372.667,"body":"You gave us new requirements, right?"},{"startTime":1372.867,"endTime":1375.817,"body":"Okay, that's only going"},{"startTime":1372.867,"endTime":1375.817,"body":"to get you so far, right?"},{"startTime":1376.107,"endTime":1379.107,"body":"And so when the customer says, Well,"},{"startTime":1376.107,"endTime":1379.107,"body":"we didn't know what our requirements"},{"startTime":1379.107,"endTime":1383.307,"body":"were nine months ago when you asked"},{"startTime":1379.107,"endTime":1383.307,"body":"us to sign those off in blood, right?"},{"startTime":1383.437,"endTime":1384.157,"body":"They changed."},{"startTime":1384.427,"endTime":1385.367,"body":"So, guess what?"},{"startTime":1385.627,"endTime":1389.357,"body":"It's either you or this competitor"},{"startTime":1385.627,"endTime":1389.357,"body":"of yours or this other one that's"},{"startTime":1389.357,"endTime":1390.567,"body":"going to play with us, right?"},{"startTime":1390.907,"endTime":1393.337,"body":"So, listen to those signs."},{"startTime":1393.487,"endTime":1397.097,"body":"All I'm trying to say here"},{"startTime":1393.487,"endTime":1397.097,"body":"is working through the C O O,"},{"startTime":1397.247,"endTime":1399.007,"body":"keep your ears open, right?"},{"startTime":1399.157,"endTime":1403.597,"body":"Listen to your customers, listen to"},{"startTime":1399.157,"endTime":1403.597,"body":"those cues, listen to those signals, and"},{"startTime":1403.747,"endTime":1408.137,"body":"Either react accordingly or feed them up"},{"startTime":1403.747,"endTime":1408.137,"body":"to whoever needs to react accordingly."},{"startTime":1408.197,"endTime":1411.567,"body":"The other pro that we also didn't talk"},{"startTime":1408.197,"endTime":1411.567,"body":"about is you are connected, I mean the"},{"startTime":1411.607,"endTime":1416.657,"body":"operations is connected to every, every,"},{"startTime":1411.607,"endTime":1416.657,"body":"everything, everybody is connected,"},{"startTime":1416.657,"endTime":1420.257,"body":"they come internal, external, whatever,"},{"startTime":1416.657,"endTime":1420.257,"body":"vendors, whatever is connected to"},{"startTime":1420.257,"endTime":1424.227,"body":"operations, so you do have an advantage"},{"startTime":1420.257,"endTime":1424.227,"body":"there with potentially a, potentially"},{"startTime":1424.517,"endTime":1426.587,"body":"that some of these other ones do not."},{"startTime":1427.037,"endTime":1428.207,"body":"Let's move on to the CTO."},{"startTime":1428.237,"endTime":1433.842,"body":"So, he says, Because they only care"},{"startTime":1428.237,"endTime":1433.842,"body":"about, what can be built, not why or"},{"startTime":1433.842,"endTime":1436.952,"body":"whether it should be built, they have"},{"startTime":1433.842,"endTime":1436.952,"body":"no real understanding of the business"},{"startTime":1436.952,"endTime":1442.432,"body":"value of the product management team, or"},{"startTime":1436.952,"endTime":1442.432,"body":"even of talking directly to customers."},{"startTime":1442.582,"endTime":1445.577,"body":"The product management team, We'll"},{"startTime":1442.582,"endTime":1445.577,"body":"spend all of its time talking to"},{"startTime":1445.577,"endTime":1449.897,"body":"developers and having arguments over"},{"startTime":1445.577,"endTime":1449.897,"body":"technical debt and shadow roadmaps."},{"startTime":1450.047,"endTime":1450.637,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":1450.747,"endTime":1451.117,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1451.117,"endTime":1456.967,"body":"So first of all, this sentiment is"},{"startTime":1451.117,"endTime":1456.967,"body":"somewhat recent, but it doesn't reflect."},{"startTime":1457.117,"endTime":1460.787,"body":"The latest thinking in, in and among CTOs."},{"startTime":1460.872,"endTime":1464.642,"body":"If you're a CTO, are you only"},{"startTime":1460.872,"endTime":1464.642,"body":"concerned about what can be built?"},{"startTime":1464.672,"endTime":1466.112,"body":"What is only possible?"},{"startTime":1466.142,"endTime":1468.602,"body":"Or are you thinking about the why?"},{"startTime":1468.752,"endTime":1469.152,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1469.232,"endTime":1469.892,"body":"Not the how."},{"startTime":1469.902,"endTime":1470.832,"body":"I'm not going to worry about the how."},{"startTime":1471.112,"endTime":1472.302,"body":"In this, in this discussion."},{"startTime":1472.452,"endTime":1477.062,"body":"Lately, CTOs have been going through"},{"startTime":1472.452,"endTime":1477.062,"body":"this, this kind of modality of"},{"startTime":1477.062,"endTime":1480.202,"body":"thinking where they say yes, we"},{"startTime":1477.062,"endTime":1480.202,"body":"know what can be built, right?"},{"startTime":1480.462,"endTime":1483.342,"body":"Technology is what it is,"},{"startTime":1480.462,"endTime":1483.342,"body":"but why should we build it?"},{"startTime":1483.492,"endTime":1485.142,"body":"So I don't fully agree with this."},{"startTime":1485.292,"endTime":1488.912,"body":"This might have been true maybe"},{"startTime":1485.292,"endTime":1488.912,"body":"like five, seven, maybe even,"},{"startTime":1489.512,"endTime":1491.662,"body":"older, seven plus years ago."},{"startTime":1491.812,"endTime":1496.382,"body":"Nowadays, you got CTOs that"},{"startTime":1491.812,"endTime":1496.382,"body":"understand the language of business."},{"startTime":1496.422,"endTime":1498.722,"body":"They're not just simply there"},{"startTime":1496.422,"endTime":1498.722,"body":"saying, Well, we're the,"},{"startTime":1499.412,"endTime":1500.502,"body":"we're the pointy heads, right?"},{"startTime":1500.502,"endTime":1502.192,"body":"We're going to tell you"},{"startTime":1500.502,"endTime":1502.192,"body":"what needs to be done."},{"startTime":1502.202,"endTime":1503.222,"body":"This is how you do it."},{"startTime":1503.282,"endTime":1504.622,"body":"And to heck with the rest of it."},{"startTime":1504.632,"endTime":1505.012,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1505.262,"endTime":1507.882,"body":"That, that used to be the case by, by far."},{"startTime":1508.092,"endTime":1509.382,"body":"But not anymore, right?"},{"startTime":1509.682,"endTime":1512.682,"body":"So product management team will spend"},{"startTime":1509.682,"endTime":1512.682,"body":"all this time telling developers If a"},{"startTime":1512.692,"endTime":1518.002,"body":"CTO lets that happen without having them,"},{"startTime":1512.692,"endTime":1518.002,"body":"in the loop, they're not really a CTO."},{"startTime":1518.792,"endTime":1519.532,"body":"You think so?"},{"startTime":1519.532,"endTime":1525.282,"body":"Because, this, this is in line, although"},{"startTime":1519.532,"endTime":1525.282,"body":"my experience working for a CTO was, ago."},{"startTime":1525.292,"endTime":1527.292,"body":"It wasn't quite five years ago,"},{"startTime":1525.292,"endTime":1527.292,"body":"but it was a couple of years ago."},{"startTime":1527.417,"endTime":1531.737,"body":"I did have this issue with the,"},{"startTime":1527.417,"endTime":1531.737,"body":"the CTO  they were more fixated"},{"startTime":1531.777,"endTime":1538.277,"body":"on solving, architectural runway,"},{"startTime":1531.777,"endTime":1538.277,"body":"technical enablement type of, tasks"},{"startTime":1538.547,"endTime":1540.157,"body":"than they were talking to customers"},{"startTime":1540.382,"endTime":1543.772,"body":"If you ask them their three year"},{"startTime":1540.382,"endTime":1543.772,"body":"plan, their three year plan probably"},{"startTime":1543.782,"endTime":1548.352,"body":"would be something along the lines"},{"startTime":1543.782,"endTime":1548.352,"body":"of, of where the, it probably would"},{"startTime":1548.362,"endTime":1551.482,"body":"be, let me think about how to say this"},{"startTime":1548.362,"endTime":1551.482,"body":"without throwing people under the bus."},{"startTime":1551.557,"endTime":1554.597,"body":"I don't know why I'm trying to defend"},{"startTime":1551.557,"endTime":1554.597,"body":"them so much because the CTO's that I"},{"startTime":1554.597,"endTime":1558.207,"body":"work with they were the most petty C"},{"startTime":1554.597,"endTime":1558.207,"body":"level executives I've ever worked with"},{"startTime":1558.487,"endTime":1562.76,"body":"like they played the most games like"},{"startTime":1558.487,"endTime":1562.76,"body":"games with shadow roadmaps and games"},{"startTime":1562.76,"endTime":1566.179,"body":"with quote resources when they didn't"},{"startTime":1562.76,"endTime":1566.179,"body":"like certain features, they would move"},{"startTime":1566.189,"endTime":1569.499,"body":"people off of teams because they owned"},{"startTime":1566.189,"endTime":1569.499,"body":"all the developers and they could do that"},{"startTime":1569.519,"endTime":1574.059,"body":"to just to undermine, different things"},{"startTime":1569.519,"endTime":1574.059,"body":"that were, started by different people."},{"startTime":1574.119,"endTime":1575.569,"body":"But, but what I'm trying to say is."},{"startTime":1575.719,"endTime":1580.329,"body":"rather than looking at the entire business"},{"startTime":1575.719,"endTime":1580.329,"body":"as a system, they would look at it from"},{"startTime":1580.329,"endTime":1584.579,"body":"the perspective of, the, the technical"},{"startTime":1580.329,"endTime":1584.579,"body":"debt that we had to overcome in order to"},{"startTime":1584.589,"endTime":1589.409,"body":"be more free to move around in the future,"},{"startTime":1584.589,"endTime":1589.409,"body":"which is sort of looking at it from a,"},{"startTime":1589.559,"endTime":1591.939,"body":"I don't know, it's sort of looking at it"},{"startTime":1589.559,"endTime":1591.939,"body":"from the bigger picture, but also it's"},{"startTime":1591.949,"endTime":1595.369,"body":"looking at it from the bigger picture"},{"startTime":1591.949,"endTime":1595.369,"body":"from the lens of what you control,"},{"startTime":1595.389,"endTime":1600.619,"body":"not, not trying to take the perspective"},{"startTime":1595.389,"endTime":1600.619,"body":"of the whole business, so I sort of"},{"startTime":1600.619,"endTime":1605.039,"body":"agree with what he's saying that they"},{"startTime":1600.619,"endTime":1605.039,"body":"were kind of, limited in their vision."},{"startTime":1605.049,"endTime":1606.709,"body":"The CTOs that I've interfaced with."},{"startTime":1606.719,"endTime":1607.939,"body":"Yeah, I couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":1607.939,"endTime":1612.219,"body":"I think we both align on that because"},{"startTime":1607.939,"endTime":1612.219,"body":"they are really looking at what I can"},{"startTime":1612.219,"endTime":1613.969,"body":"only describe as turf management, right?"},{"startTime":1613.969,"endTime":1616.979,"body":"So they're looking at their own"},{"startTime":1613.969,"endTime":1616.979,"body":"turf and saying, this is what I can"},{"startTime":1616.979,"endTime":1618.909,"body":"control, this is what I'm going to do."},{"startTime":1619.059,"endTime":1621.929,"body":"And that's really the extent of it."},{"startTime":1622.079,"endTime":1625.919,"body":"Now, unfortunately, I say"},{"startTime":1622.079,"endTime":1625.919,"body":"unfortunately because in a lot of"},{"startTime":1625.919,"endTime":1630.979,"body":"technology led products, they have"},{"startTime":1625.919,"endTime":1630.979,"body":"a pivotal role to play, right?"},{"startTime":1631.329,"endTime":1636.239,"body":"They can be the good corporate"},{"startTime":1631.329,"endTime":1636.239,"body":"citizens and educate their clients"},{"startTime":1636.289,"endTime":1642.099,"body":"and potential clients in the nuances"},{"startTime":1636.289,"endTime":1642.099,"body":"of For example, cybersecurity, for"},{"startTime":1642.099,"endTime":1647.149,"body":"instance, right, what can happen if"},{"startTime":1642.099,"endTime":1647.149,"body":"you did this or didn't do this, right?"},{"startTime":1647.484,"endTime":1649.914,"body":"As a CTO, you should"},{"startTime":1647.484,"endTime":1649.914,"body":"be thinking about this."},{"startTime":1649.954,"endTime":1653.744,"body":"If you do that, if you're holding,"},{"startTime":1649.954,"endTime":1653.744,"body":"these breakfast sessions where you"},{"startTime":1653.744,"endTime":1659.144,"body":"have CTO CEOs, all the CXOs coming in"},{"startTime":1653.744,"endTime":1659.144,"body":"and discussing these things without an"},{"startTime":1659.144,"endTime":1661.054,"body":"agenda of getting something out of them."},{"startTime":1661.274,"endTime":1663.064,"body":"If you're not doing that, I don't know."},{"startTime":1663.134,"endTime":1665.514,"body":"As far as tech debt goes, I only"},{"startTime":1663.134,"endTime":1665.514,"body":"have two things to say here."},{"startTime":1665.554,"endTime":1669.554,"body":"One is, CTOs always want to"},{"startTime":1665.554,"endTime":1669.554,"body":"paper over the cracks, right?"},{"startTime":1669.594,"endTime":1673.774,"body":"Because guess whose organization"},{"startTime":1669.594,"endTime":1673.774,"body":"it was that led to the tech net."},{"startTime":1673.794,"endTime":1674.524,"body":"It's theirs."},{"startTime":1674.534,"endTime":1678.139,"body":"The devs, the testers, even right"},{"startTime":1674.534,"endTime":1678.139,"body":"sometimes that they all report into the"},{"startTime":1678.139,"endTime":1682.719,"body":"CTO, so they don't want to admit to the"},{"startTime":1678.139,"endTime":1682.719,"body":"fact that we delivered a subpar product."},{"startTime":1682.959,"endTime":1685.429,"body":"So they're going to say, it's"},{"startTime":1682.959,"endTime":1685.429,"body":"fine, but the requirements"},{"startTime":1685.429,"endTime":1687.099,"body":"changed or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":1687.214,"endTime":1692.334,"body":"The other thing I want to talk about tech"},{"startTime":1687.214,"endTime":1692.334,"body":"debt is they do not want to go backwards"},{"startTime":1692.334,"endTime":1696.544,"body":"and say, Hey, listen, last three sprints,"},{"startTime":1692.334,"endTime":1696.544,"body":"we had all this stuff that we accumulate."},{"startTime":1696.544,"endTime":1697.384,"body":"Let's go fix that."},{"startTime":1697.384,"endTime":1698.794,"body":"Let's spend a sprint fixing that."},{"startTime":1698.804,"endTime":1699.684,"body":"Nobody does that."},{"startTime":1699.834,"endTime":1703.594,"body":"The only time they do that is"},{"startTime":1699.834,"endTime":1703.594,"body":"when they have the highest paying"},{"startTime":1703.604,"endTime":1709.259,"body":"customer or customers scream blue"},{"startTime":1703.604,"endTime":1709.259,"body":"murder and go fix this and then they"},{"startTime":1709.259,"endTime":1711.009,"body":"go, Oh, the customer's screaming."},{"startTime":1711.019,"endTime":1712.759,"body":"We better fix at least 10 percent of that."},{"startTime":1712.759,"endTime":1715.789,"body":"So we can like,  put them"},{"startTime":1712.759,"endTime":1715.789,"body":"at bay for  little while."},{"startTime":1715.969,"endTime":1717.369,"body":"That's how it goes."},{"startTime":1717.519,"endTime":1718.079,"body":"Unfortunately."},{"startTime":1718.229,"endTime":1718.519,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1718.669,"endTime":1722.519,"body":"I, I agree with some of that,"},{"startTime":1718.669,"endTime":1722.519,"body":"but, not all of it, but also, it's"},{"startTime":1722.529,"endTime":1723.749,"body":"like, there was so much of it."},{"startTime":1723.749,"endTime":1724.339,"body":"I can't remember."},{"startTime":1724.489,"endTime":1727.309,"body":"I can't, I can't, I can't,"},{"startTime":1724.489,"endTime":1727.309,"body":"I can't go back and red pen."},{"startTime":1727.519,"endTime":1730.879,"body":"No, I, again, I, like the CTOs"},{"startTime":1727.519,"endTime":1730.879,"body":"that I work with are, are."},{"startTime":1731.059,"endTime":1733.789,"body":"Are very different from the"},{"startTime":1731.059,"endTime":1733.789,"body":"person you're describing."},{"startTime":1733.789,"endTime":1735.829,"body":"So like they're, I've just"},{"startTime":1733.789,"endTime":1735.829,"body":"not had that experience."},{"startTime":1735.834,"endTime":1736.129,"body":"You're lucky, man."},{"startTime":1736.129,"endTime":1737.179,"body":"I've just not had that experience."},{"startTime":1737.179,"endTime":1737.539,"body":"Oh, no."},{"startTime":1737.539,"endTime":1738.349,"body":"Lucky in the other way."},{"startTime":1738.499,"endTime":1741.349,"body":"Like it's, it's, they're the ones"},{"startTime":1738.499,"endTime":1741.349,"body":"that have had the shadow roadmap"},{"startTime":1741.349,"endTime":1744.469,"body":"of like, we have the roadmap and"},{"startTime":1741.349,"endTime":1744.469,"body":"we've gone through this big exercise"},{"startTime":1744.474,"endTime":1745.639,"body":"and making everything transparent."},{"startTime":1745.759,"endTime":1748.179,"body":"And they've, they participated"},{"startTime":1745.759,"endTime":1748.179,"body":"and they, they sure not up."},{"startTime":1748.179,"endTime":1750.019,"body":"They showed up there and they"},{"startTime":1748.179,"endTime":1750.019,"body":"nodded up and down they said."},{"startTime":1750.094,"endTime":1751.944,"body":"And there's a product organization."},{"startTime":1751.994,"endTime":1754.844,"body":"And at all the meetings, they say"},{"startTime":1751.994,"endTime":1754.844,"body":"the right thing and they throw"},{"startTime":1754.844,"endTime":1755.924,"body":"out the old Bill Clinton thumb."},{"startTime":1755.994,"endTime":1758.504,"body":"But then when it comes to actually"},{"startTime":1755.994,"endTime":1758.504,"body":"doing stuff like They're, they're"},{"startTime":1758.504,"endTime":1763.554,"body":"going to the developer Hey, buddy,"},{"startTime":1758.504,"endTime":1763.554,"body":"just do this one thing right quick."},{"startTime":1763.564,"endTime":1765.334,"body":"It's a little tiny change."},{"startTime":1765.384,"endTime":1768.854,"body":"So they have a shadow roadmap they're"},{"startTime":1765.384,"endTime":1768.854,"body":"getting what they want into the product."},{"startTime":1768.874,"endTime":1772.779,"body":"And then now we're up against the"},{"startTime":1768.874,"endTime":1772.779,"body":"annoying product management of like,"},{"startTime":1773.069,"endTime":1777.859,"body":"Well, you just gotta do your job"},{"startTime":1773.069,"endTime":1777.859,"body":"through influence and be the best"},{"startTime":1777.869,"endTime":1783.399,"body":"person you can be and build bridges"},{"startTime":1777.869,"endTime":1783.399,"body":"and burn bridges and blow up bridges"},{"startTime":1783.549,"endTime":1789.009,"body":"So here's, here's what I say about that,"},{"startTime":1783.549,"endTime":1789.009,"body":"that oftentimes when you look at Your"},{"startTime":1789.009,"endTime":1795.559,"body":"road map and you look at the items that"},{"startTime":1789.009,"endTime":1795.559,"body":"your CTO has inflicted upon your road map."},{"startTime":1795.709,"endTime":1796.579,"body":"I can't think of a better word."},{"startTime":1796.779,"endTime":1797.999,"body":"You'll never see him in the road."},{"startTime":1797.999,"endTime":1801.529,"body":"No, you'll see him because because"},{"startTime":1797.999,"endTime":1801.529,"body":"the developers are working on it."},{"startTime":1801.559,"endTime":1802.929,"body":"So hopefully it's in your."},{"startTime":1803.079,"endTime":1803.099,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1803.109,"endTime":1803.439,"body":"Negative."},{"startTime":1803.589,"endTime":1803.939,"body":"Negative."},{"startTime":1803.939,"endTime":1806.599,"body":"It's not in the backlog at all."},{"startTime":1806.599,"endTime":1808.279,"body":"Can you, can you look at PRs?"},{"startTime":1808.309,"endTime":1809.519,"body":"Because that's where they are."},{"startTime":1809.529,"endTime":1810.519,"body":"They don't appear."},{"startTime":1810.829,"endTime":1812.839,"body":"PRs without work items."},{"startTime":1813.089,"endTime":1813.799,"body":"That's what they are."},{"startTime":1813.949,"endTime":1816.799,"body":"Explicit approval to just"},{"startTime":1813.949,"endTime":1816.799,"body":"go ahead in any way, right?"},{"startTime":1816.924,"endTime":1819.844,"body":"So Two things I want to say about"},{"startTime":1816.924,"endTime":1819.844,"body":"that because we're talking about"},{"startTime":1819.844,"endTime":1823.884,"body":"this from a product perspective If"},{"startTime":1819.844,"endTime":1823.884,"body":"you even get a wind of this stuff"},{"startTime":1823.914,"endTime":1828.584,"body":"that's going on like, oh, yeah, this"},{"startTime":1823.914,"endTime":1828.584,"body":"might be happening Just question one"},{"startTime":1828.584,"endTime":1830.604,"body":"thing Question the opportunity cost."},{"startTime":1830.674,"endTime":1832.454,"body":"Your devs are working on this, Mr."},{"startTime":1832.454,"endTime":1833.144,"body":"CTO."},{"startTime":1833.394,"endTime":1833.644,"body":"Ms."},{"startTime":1833.644,"endTime":1834.504,"body":"CTO."},{"startTime":1834.654,"endTime":1835.784,"body":"What are they not doing?"},{"startTime":1836.094,"endTime":1838.034,"body":"To deliver customer value, right?"},{"startTime":1838.184,"endTime":1842.534,"body":"And, when, when you have that"},{"startTime":1838.184,"endTime":1842.534,"body":"discussion, and you see that person"},{"startTime":1842.684,"endTime":1844.184,"body":"Get a little warm under the collar."},{"startTime":1844.184,"endTime":1849.384,"body":"Just ask, how much, how much time, is"},{"startTime":1844.184,"endTime":1849.384,"body":"being spent on this activity exactly?"},{"startTime":1849.624,"endTime":1852.584,"body":"Because I can tell you what I"},{"startTime":1849.624,"endTime":1852.584,"body":"would rather get done in that time."},{"startTime":1852.659,"endTime":1856.099,"body":"It's uncomfortable to have that"},{"startTime":1852.659,"endTime":1856.099,"body":"conversation that you got to have it."},{"startTime":1856.109,"endTime":1858.879,"body":"Again, it's, it's uncomfortable to"},{"startTime":1856.109,"endTime":1858.879,"body":"have that conversation unless the"},{"startTime":1858.879,"endTime":1860.909,"body":"person realizes, unless the person..."},{"startTime":1861.059,"endTime":1865.119,"body":"Who worked their way up the development"},{"startTime":1861.059,"endTime":1865.119,"body":"ladder to CTO realizes that they're"},{"startTime":1865.119,"endTime":1868.459,"body":"in the position of CTO and you are"},{"startTime":1865.119,"endTime":1868.459,"body":"not because again, I've also had this"},{"startTime":1868.539,"endTime":1872.689,"body":"discussion where they say, listen, all"},{"startTime":1868.539,"endTime":1872.689,"body":"you have, you have all the developers in"},{"startTime":1872.689,"endTime":1875.169,"body":"my department dedicated to your project."},{"startTime":1875.199,"endTime":1875.899,"body":"All two of them."},{"startTime":1875.899,"endTime":1878.079,"body":"And they're, they're all, no,"},{"startTime":1875.899,"endTime":1878.079,"body":"you have, you have a certain"},{"startTime":1878.079,"endTime":1879.329,"body":"number of developers, whatever."},{"startTime":1879.479,"endTime":1880.429,"body":"And they all have."},{"startTime":1880.579,"endTime":1885.249,"body":"85 percent utilization, of course, the"},{"startTime":1880.579,"endTime":1885.249,"body":"other 15 percent I can give them whatever"},{"startTime":1885.249,"endTime":1888.269,"body":"I want them to do because I'm their boss."},{"startTime":1888.309,"endTime":1890.279,"body":"Yeah, yeah, ultimately that's true."},{"startTime":1890.279,"endTime":1894.299,"body":"And that, and also in environments"},{"startTime":1890.279,"endTime":1894.299,"body":"like that also, the leads, like"},{"startTime":1894.299,"endTime":1896.469,"body":"the technical leads, solution"},{"startTime":1894.299,"endTime":1896.469,"body":"architects, stuff like that, they're"},{"startTime":1896.469,"endTime":1897.859,"body":"not assigned to individual teams."},{"startTime":1897.969,"endTime":1900.549,"body":"So they 100 percent float between teams."},{"startTime":1900.669,"endTime":1904.169,"body":"So they're like 0 percent of their"},{"startTime":1900.669,"endTime":1904.169,"body":"utilization is guaranteed to your team."},{"startTime":1904.389,"endTime":1908.824,"body":"So they, they also can be"},{"startTime":1904.389,"endTime":1908.824,"body":"agents of random chaos."},{"startTime":1908.994,"endTime":1909.694,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1909.844,"endTime":1913.564,"body":"Full time, 100 percent of their time"},{"startTime":1909.844,"endTime":1913.564,"body":"checking in stuff into your product,"},{"startTime":1913.564,"endTime":1914.444,"body":"and you don't know where it came from."},{"startTime":1914.444,"endTime":1915.374,"body":"Still in the mechanical craft."},{"startTime":1915.394,"endTime":1916.584,"body":"Agents of chaos,"},{"startTime":1916.584,"endTime":1919.609,"body":"so, again, we're beating this"},{"startTime":1916.584,"endTime":1919.609,"body":"up because this is my trademark,"},{"startTime":1919.629,"endTime":1921.229,"body":"that one Exec in my career."},{"startTime":1921.344,"endTime":1927.079,"body":"so 18 percent of the poll said they"},{"startTime":1921.344,"endTime":1927.079,"body":"don't want to be placed under a CTO."},{"startTime":1927.129,"endTime":1927.299,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1927.374,"endTime":1933.299,"body":"This is why I think, right, CTO is a"},{"startTime":1927.374,"endTime":1933.299,"body":"relatively young role, relatively, I"},{"startTime":1933.299,"endTime":1939.769,"body":"mean, it's been only around for, I don't"},{"startTime":1933.299,"endTime":1939.769,"body":"know, 10 years, maybe, really, like not"},{"startTime":1939.769,"endTime":1941.749,"body":"just a title, but I'm talking about."},{"startTime":1941.899,"endTime":1943.259,"body":"A role as such."},{"startTime":1943.409,"endTime":1943.769,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1944.019,"endTime":1948.899,"body":"So what happens here is we need"},{"startTime":1944.019,"endTime":1948.899,"body":"to look at the progression."},{"startTime":1949.159,"endTime":1952.199,"body":"What happened in the last 15, 18 years?"},{"startTime":1952.259,"endTime":1957.529,"body":"Some of the CTOs that you see now"},{"startTime":1952.259,"endTime":1957.529,"body":"acting as CTOs are actually people that"},{"startTime":1957.529,"endTime":1963.339,"body":"have gone through, training, education"},{"startTime":1957.529,"endTime":1963.339,"body":"as MBAs, whatever, whatever it is."},{"startTime":1963.509,"endTime":1965.169,"body":"But they think about the business."},{"startTime":1965.319,"endTime":1971.699,"body":"Primarily and then technology secondarily"},{"startTime":1965.319,"endTime":1971.699,"body":"that is very rare and it's in its"},{"startTime":1971.729,"endTime":1973.829,"body":"infancy I will grant you that okay."},{"startTime":1973.829,"endTime":1976.629,"body":"I know you're not talking"},{"startTime":1973.829,"endTime":1976.629,"body":"about people like, you know"},{"startTime":1976.659,"endTime":1978.699,"body":"Zuckerberg or people like that."},{"startTime":1978.699,"endTime":1982.019,"body":"I'm talking about people that"},{"startTime":1978.699,"endTime":1982.019,"body":"come up Through the ranks,"},{"startTime":1982.019,"endTime":1982.929,"body":"Brian, through the ranks."},{"startTime":1982.939,"endTime":1985.679,"body":"The more that we talk about this,"},{"startTime":1982.939,"endTime":1985.679,"body":"the, the harder stance I take on the"},{"startTime":1985.679,"endTime":1990.209,"body":"opposite side to say, all the CTOs that"},{"startTime":1985.679,"endTime":1990.209,"body":"I've been coupled with, have this real"},{"startTime":1990.269,"endTime":1992.433,"body":"obtuse, objection to product management"},{"startTime":1992.493,"endTime":1995.493,"body":"."},{"startTime":1992.493,"endTime":1995.493,"body":"Actually, you know what  they end"},{"startTime":1995.513,"endTime":2001.363,"body":"efforts to build a roadmap and to talk"},{"startTime":1995.513,"endTime":2001.363,"body":"to customers and to figure out the"},{"startTime":2001.363,"endTime":2004.953,"body":"path forward through experimentation"},{"startTime":2001.363,"endTime":2004.953,"body":"because, quote, I know what to do."},{"startTime":2005.213,"endTime":2008.693,"body":"I mean the pros in this category are"},{"startTime":2005.213,"endTime":2008.693,"body":"you can keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":2008.713,"endTime":2009.893,"body":"That's my pro right there."},{"startTime":2009.943,"endTime":2010.423,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2010.593,"endTime":2010.943,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2010.953,"endTime":2012.083,"body":"Keep it updated, folks."},{"startTime":2012.183,"endTime":2015.233,"body":"Let's finish out the pros and cons"},{"startTime":2012.183,"endTime":2015.233,"body":"because the CEO is the last one."},{"startTime":2015.233,"endTime":2018.293,"body":"Because they're still the de facto"},{"startTime":2015.233,"endTime":2018.293,"body":"head of product and won't allow the"},{"startTime":2018.293,"endTime":2021.913,"body":"product management team to do their"},{"startTime":2018.293,"endTime":2021.913,"body":"job, they're desperate to still be seen"},{"startTime":2021.923,"endTime":2025.143,"body":"as the visionary and every single idea"},{"startTime":2021.923,"endTime":2025.143,"body":"that they have will immediately fall"},{"startTime":2025.143,"endTime":2026.883,"body":"directly onto the product management team."},{"startTime":2027.063,"endTime":2029.543,"body":"Who have very limited"},{"startTime":2027.063,"endTime":2029.543,"body":"ability to push back."},{"startTime":2029.563,"endTime":2032.723,"body":"They will constantly complain that"},{"startTime":2029.563,"endTime":2032.723,"body":"the teams aren't delivering as fast as"},{"startTime":2032.723,"endTime":2037.933,"body":"they used to while generally stymieing"},{"startTime":2032.723,"endTime":2037.933,"body":"any effort to help the teams do that."},{"startTime":2038.193,"endTime":2041.453,"body":"Well, I, I almost want to cut out"},{"startTime":2038.193,"endTime":2041.453,"body":"that last, that after the comma, cause"},{"startTime":2041.453,"endTime":2042.563,"body":"that, that really doesn't even fit."},{"startTime":2042.723,"endTime":2046.653,"body":"They will constantly complain that the"},{"startTime":2042.723,"endTime":2046.653,"body":"teams aren't delivering as fast as they"},{"startTime":2046.653,"endTime":2048.703,"body":"used to, or as fast as they should."},{"startTime":2048.723,"endTime":2051.333,"body":"I would, I would alternately, I'd throw"},{"startTime":2048.723,"endTime":2051.333,"body":"that in there as fast as they should."},{"startTime":2051.408,"endTime":2053.338,"body":"I've been in organizations where"},{"startTime":2051.408,"endTime":2053.338,"body":"they have offshore development"},{"startTime":2053.338,"endTime":2056.228,"body":"and then the CEO is like, Whoa,"},{"startTime":2053.338,"endTime":2056.228,"body":"they should be delivering faster."},{"startTime":2056.228,"endTime":2057.598,"body":"These features are easy."},{"startTime":2057.748,"endTime":2058.258,"body":"Or whatever."},{"startTime":2058.298,"endTime":2058.928,"body":"I've seen that too."},{"startTime":2059.018,"endTime":2062.518,"body":"Although, I will tell you I'm"},{"startTime":2059.018,"endTime":2062.518,"body":"immediately on the side of products"},{"startTime":2062.518,"endTime":2064.648,"body":"should be working directly for the CEO."},{"startTime":2064.988,"endTime":2067.908,"body":"And I'm immediately, Yes,"},{"startTime":2064.988,"endTime":2067.908,"body":"some of these things are true."},{"startTime":2068.058,"endTime":2072.848,"body":"Especially with the visionary who wants"},{"startTime":2068.058,"endTime":2072.848,"body":"to be the Steve Jobs and, they want to"},{"startTime":2072.848,"endTime":2076.402,"body":"pretend they got the greatest ideas, I'll"},{"startTime":2072.848,"endTime":2076.402,"body":"take all those problems, if I'm working"},{"startTime":2076.552,"endTime":2079.282,"body":"directly for the head of the organization."},{"startTime":2079.282,"endTime":2081.682,"body":"Because again, they're setting culture"},{"startTime":2079.282,"endTime":2081.682,"body":"for the rest of the organization."},{"startTime":2081.862,"endTime":2084.232,"body":"If the, if the organizational"},{"startTime":2081.862,"endTime":2084.232,"body":"culture they're setting sucks."},{"startTime":2084.382,"endTime":2086.282,"body":"Of course working for them"},{"startTime":2084.382,"endTime":2086.282,"body":"as product is going to suck."},{"startTime":2086.432,"endTime":2087.792,"body":"Working for them anywhere"},{"startTime":2086.432,"endTime":2087.792,"body":"is going to suck."},{"startTime":2087.852,"endTime":2088.442,"body":"Yeah, going to say that."},{"startTime":2088.742,"endTime":2090.492,"body":"Working for them anywhere"},{"startTime":2088.742,"endTime":2090.492,"body":"is going to suck."},{"startTime":2090.522,"endTime":2092.812,"body":"Because they want to be"},{"startTime":2090.522,"endTime":2092.812,"body":"seen as the visionary."},{"startTime":2092.812,"endTime":2094.382,"body":"Okay, we can yield them that."},{"startTime":2094.632,"endTime":2094.972,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2095.122,"endTime":2098.772,"body":"But if you are part of product,"},{"startTime":2095.122,"endTime":2098.772,"body":"here's what you bring to them."},{"startTime":2098.912,"endTime":2105.602,"body":"You bring them a cold reality of what is"},{"startTime":2098.912,"endTime":2105.602,"body":"the market Fit what is the market need?"},{"startTime":2105.682,"endTime":2106.762,"body":"What is what we know?"},{"startTime":2106.772,"endTime":2109.802,"body":"How much people are prepared"},{"startTime":2106.772,"endTime":2109.802,"body":"to pay for this stuff, right?"},{"startTime":2110.052,"endTime":2112.762,"body":"So it doesn't matter what they"},{"startTime":2110.052,"endTime":2112.762,"body":"think sitting in their ivory tower."},{"startTime":2112.842,"endTime":2114.402,"body":"They have to understand."},{"startTime":2114.522,"endTime":2119.742,"body":"Here's what we're spending Here's what we"},{"startTime":2114.522,"endTime":2119.742,"body":"hope to gain from that be conservative."},{"startTime":2119.752,"endTime":2124.562,"body":"Of course, right in the early days But,"},{"startTime":2119.752,"endTime":2124.562,"body":"if they're not willing to listen to you,"},{"startTime":2124.712,"endTime":2128.632,"body":"I'm sorry we go back to the previous"},{"startTime":2124.712,"endTime":2128.632,"body":"point, which is keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":2128.832,"endTime":2132.522,"body":"And I mean, the other thing in here"},{"startTime":2128.832,"endTime":2132.522,"body":"that I sort of want to, I don't know"},{"startTime":2132.522,"endTime":2133.732,"body":"if I really want to push back on it."},{"startTime":2133.742,"endTime":2137.447,"body":"Like, he says He says every single"},{"startTime":2133.742,"endTime":2137.447,"body":"idea the CEO has immediately falls"},{"startTime":2137.447,"endTime":2140.007,"body":"on a product and product has kind"},{"startTime":2137.447,"endTime":2140.007,"body":"of a limited ability to push back."},{"startTime":2140.082,"endTime":2143.182,"body":"I mean, you have some leeway,"},{"startTime":2140.082,"endTime":2143.182,"body":"armed with statistics."},{"startTime":2143.192,"endTime":2145.222,"body":"You can push back and"},{"startTime":2143.192,"endTime":2145.222,"body":"say, this is your idea."},{"startTime":2145.322,"endTime":2148.962,"body":"However, our market potential"},{"startTime":2145.322,"endTime":2148.962,"body":"market share is only."},{"startTime":2149.112,"endTime":2153.447,"body":"12 percent right and if each customer"},{"startTime":2149.112,"endTime":2153.447,"body":"can only contribute let's just assume the"},{"startTime":2153.457,"endTime":2159.607,"body":"best case scenario here X amount Therefore"},{"startTime":2153.457,"endTime":2159.607,"body":"project out and go this is what it is now."},{"startTime":2159.817,"endTime":2163.967,"body":"We're looking to spend so much more"},{"startTime":2159.817,"endTime":2163.967,"body":"Maybe it's a multiple of that to try"},{"startTime":2163.967,"endTime":2166.037,"body":"and get that does that make sense?"},{"startTime":2166.057,"endTime":2166.367,"body":"Mr."},{"startTime":2166.367,"endTime":2167.817,"body":"CEO miss CEO, right?"},{"startTime":2167.847,"endTime":2171.127,"body":"Does it make sense if it"},{"startTime":2167.847,"endTime":2171.127,"body":"doesn't make sense then?"},{"startTime":2171.277,"endTime":2172.417,"body":"The question can be asked."},{"startTime":2172.567,"endTime":2173.467,"body":"Why are we doing that?"},{"startTime":2173.547,"endTime":2175.897,"body":"And the second question,"},{"startTime":2173.547,"endTime":2175.897,"body":"I always forget this."},{"startTime":2176.047,"endTime":2177.457,"body":"What is the opportunity cost?"},{"startTime":2177.637,"endTime":2181.397,"body":"What are we not doing in the"},{"startTime":2177.637,"endTime":2181.397,"body":"space and time that it takes"},{"startTime":2181.397,"endTime":2183.787,"body":"us to, pursue this, right?"},{"startTime":2183.947,"endTime":2184.767,"body":"Somewhere else."},{"startTime":2184.807,"endTime":2186.727,"body":"Very few people make that"},{"startTime":2184.807,"endTime":2186.727,"body":"visible, to be honest."},{"startTime":2186.727,"endTime":2190.277,"body":"They say, this is what we're"},{"startTime":2186.727,"endTime":2190.277,"body":"passing up in order to do."},{"startTime":2190.287,"endTime":2191.247,"body":"It's a safety thing, though."},{"startTime":2191.537,"endTime":2193.887,"body":"When you're working for the"},{"startTime":2191.537,"endTime":2193.887,"body":"CEO, it's a safety thing, right?"},{"startTime":2193.927,"endTime":2194.997,"body":"You want to keep your job."},{"startTime":2195.172,"endTime":2196.422,"body":"I get that, right?"},{"startTime":2196.542,"endTime":2196.872,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2196.892,"endTime":2199.562,"body":"But if you've been listening"},{"startTime":2196.892,"endTime":2199.562,"body":"to our podcast of late, you"},{"startTime":2199.562,"endTime":2200.642,"body":"got to keep that resume up."},{"startTime":2201.092,"endTime":2206.742,"body":"You also know that speaking up armed with"},{"startTime":2201.092,"endTime":2206.742,"body":"evidence is the best thing you can do."},{"startTime":2206.842,"endTime":2207.122,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2207.272,"endTime":2211.132,"body":"Keeping quiet and being subservient"},{"startTime":2207.272,"endTime":2211.132,"body":"is the worst thing you can do."},{"startTime":2211.282,"endTime":2212.082,"body":"I mean"},{"startTime":2214.339,"endTime":2215.429,"body":"oh, oh, I know what I was gonna say."},{"startTime":2215.504,"endTime":2216.704,"body":"You have very limited pushback."},{"startTime":2216.704,"endTime":2217.534,"body":"That's what I want to say."},{"startTime":2217.774,"endTime":2218.884,"body":"You have very limited pushback."},{"startTime":2218.894,"endTime":2222.714,"body":"Listen, I agree because you you're afraid"},{"startTime":2218.894,"endTime":2222.714,"body":"of whatever, losing your job or whatever."},{"startTime":2222.834,"endTime":2226.594,"body":"I, I get that, but also if you've"},{"startTime":2222.834,"endTime":2226.594,"body":"done your job well and you've"},{"startTime":2226.694,"endTime":2229.314,"body":"fostered a culture of testing ideas."},{"startTime":2229.369,"endTime":2229.849,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2229.999,"endTime":2231.019,"body":"and saying Orientation."},{"startTime":2231.019,"endTime":2233.059,"body":"How are we gonna prove like, okay, Mr."},{"startTime":2233.059,"endTime":2234.109,"body":"C e o, Mrs."},{"startTime":2234.109,"endTime":2234.949,"body":"C e o, whatever,"},{"startTime":2235.354,"endTime":2237.874,"body":"you have this idea that if we do x."},{"startTime":2238.839,"endTime":2240.389,"body":"Then y result will happen."},{"startTime":2240.489,"endTime":2243.259,"body":"What can we do to prove"},{"startTime":2240.489,"endTime":2243.259,"body":"that in the market?"},{"startTime":2243.429,"endTime":2244.899,"body":"What can we do to explore"},{"startTime":2243.429,"endTime":2244.899,"body":"that in the market?"},{"startTime":2245.119,"endTime":2248.219,"body":"And we're going to try that"},{"startTime":2245.119,"endTime":2248.219,"body":"first to explore the idea."},{"startTime":2248.519,"endTime":2251.889,"body":"And it shouldn't be anything special that"},{"startTime":2248.519,"endTime":2251.889,"body":"you're doing with them to handhold them."},{"startTime":2252.029,"endTime":2254.169,"body":"You should just do that"},{"startTime":2252.029,"endTime":2254.169,"body":"with all your ideas."},{"startTime":2254.459,"endTime":2255.729,"body":"Unless, unless."},{"startTime":2255.879,"endTime":2259.209,"body":"There is pre existing evidence"},{"startTime":2255.879,"endTime":2259.209,"body":"that this is already the way to go."},{"startTime":2259.369,"endTime":2263.759,"body":"And, and if it's, if, if, if, the"},{"startTime":2259.369,"endTime":2263.759,"body":"other thing that's not detailed in"},{"startTime":2263.759,"endTime":2269.759,"body":"this article is, if your CEO is the"},{"startTime":2263.759,"endTime":2269.759,"body":"expert, the domain expert, and you are"},{"startTime":2269.759,"endTime":2274.059,"body":"not, product manager is not, CEO is the"},{"startTime":2269.759,"endTime":2274.059,"body":"domain expert, maybe the whole company,"},{"startTime":2274.249,"endTime":2278.639,"body":"I've seen several companies started"},{"startTime":2274.249,"endTime":2278.639,"body":"because a CEO had a relationship with"},{"startTime":2278.639,"endTime":2280.219,"body":"somebody that they ended up selling to."},{"startTime":2280.369,"endTime":2283.139,"body":"And the CEO starts company sells to"},{"startTime":2280.369,"endTime":2283.139,"body":"the person they had a relationship"},{"startTime":2283.149,"endTime":2285.569,"body":"with because maybe they used to"},{"startTime":2283.149,"endTime":2285.569,"body":"work there as the expert that"},{"startTime":2285.569,"endTime":2287.089,"body":"their software is tailored for now."},{"startTime":2287.179,"endTime":2287.499,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2287.669,"endTime":2290.689,"body":"So at a certain point like you would"},{"startTime":2287.669,"endTime":2290.689,"body":"test ideas and everything, but also"},{"startTime":2290.839,"endTime":2295.379,"body":"Unless you have those deep contacts"},{"startTime":2290.839,"endTime":2295.379,"body":"and that deep expertise, your ability"},{"startTime":2295.379,"endTime":2297.849,"body":"to challenge here could be limited."},{"startTime":2297.999,"endTime":2301.379,"body":"So that's, that is very realistic in"},{"startTime":2297.999,"endTime":2301.379,"body":"this category, which is a trade off."},{"startTime":2301.379,"endTime":2303.599,"body":"So, the, the, the, there are pros here."},{"startTime":2303.629,"endTime":2306.819,"body":"The pros is, the pros is, the pros are..."},{"startTime":2307.099,"endTime":2307.309,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2307.434,"endTime":2312.924,"body":"The pros are, the, if the CEO is the"},{"startTime":2307.434,"endTime":2312.924,"body":"one with the domain expertise, you need"},{"startTime":2312.924,"endTime":2316.614,"body":"to ride along for a while before you"},{"startTime":2312.924,"endTime":2316.614,"body":"really can start challenging, exerting"},{"startTime":2316.614,"endTime":2317.554,"body":"your influence, stuff like that."},{"startTime":2317.724,"endTime":2322.204,"body":"Maybe help them do some basic product"},{"startTime":2317.724,"endTime":2322.204,"body":"management stuff, and help them understand"},{"startTime":2322.204,"endTime":2323.604,"body":"you're, you're, so you're extending their."},{"startTime":2323.754,"endTime":2327.824,"body":"Skill and knowledge while also they're"},{"startTime":2323.754,"endTime":2327.824,"body":"doing the same for you at the same time."},{"startTime":2327.974,"endTime":2330.064,"body":"The buck stops with the CEO."},{"startTime":2330.064,"endTime":2332.814,"body":"So you really, if you work for the"},{"startTime":2330.064,"endTime":2332.814,"body":"CEO, you have a huge advantage."},{"startTime":2333.054,"endTime":2334.514,"body":"You don't have to go through"},{"startTime":2333.054,"endTime":2334.514,"body":"different layers of the"},{"startTime":2334.514,"endTime":2335.844,"body":"bureaucracy to get things done."},{"startTime":2335.964,"endTime":2337.274,"body":"You go straight to the"},{"startTime":2335.964,"endTime":2337.274,"body":"top and you're done."},{"startTime":2337.424,"endTime":2339.014,"body":"You just switched over to the pro side."},{"startTime":2339.074,"endTime":2340.204,"body":"I agree, absolutely."},{"startTime":2340.204,"endTime":2344.554,"body":"Listen, if your CEO is already"},{"startTime":2340.204,"endTime":2344.554,"body":"vested in this way that you just"},{"startTime":2344.604,"endTime":2346.324,"body":"described, yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2346.364,"endTime":2349.694,"body":"Listen, you don't have to try hard"},{"startTime":2346.364,"endTime":2349.694,"body":"to convince them that this is a"},{"startTime":2349.694,"endTime":2352.384,"body":"viable, go to market strategy, right?"},{"startTime":2352.534,"endTime":2357.324,"body":"But it behooves you to say Yes, sir,"},{"startTime":2352.534,"endTime":2357.324,"body":"ma'am, this is what we're gonna do,"},{"startTime":2357.404,"endTime":2359.674,"body":"but beware of these things, right?"},{"startTime":2359.944,"endTime":2365.254,"body":"Because when, the proverbial, poo"},{"startTime":2359.944,"endTime":2365.254,"body":"poo hits the fan, you are actually"},{"startTime":2365.254,"endTime":2368.524,"body":"going to be in a better place because"},{"startTime":2365.254,"endTime":2368.524,"body":"you, you warned them ahead of time."},{"startTime":2368.824,"endTime":2371.554,"body":"You told them, even if they don't"},{"startTime":2368.824,"endTime":2371.554,"body":"listen, you still get fired."},{"startTime":2371.584,"endTime":2372.814,"body":"Hey, give that resume update."},{"startTime":2372.974,"endTime":2377.794,"body":"But yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna be"},{"startTime":2372.974,"endTime":2377.794,"body":"able to say, listen, I did my level best"},{"startTime":2377.864,"endTime":2380.734,"body":"to tell you what's going on in the market."},{"startTime":2380.834,"endTime":2383.254,"body":"The other pro I want to say is"},{"startTime":2380.834,"endTime":2383.254,"body":"your CEO is probably quite well"},{"startTime":2383.254,"endTime":2385.124,"body":"known in the domain, right?"},{"startTime":2385.394,"endTime":2388.364,"body":"So you can, ride on their coattails."},{"startTime":2389.349,"endTime":2391.849,"body":"So right by by simply saying, look."},{"startTime":2391.999,"endTime":2397.723,"body":"Our CEO is, James Bond III or whatever,"},{"startTime":2391.999,"endTime":2397.723,"body":"Sean Connery, yeah, he, he's, he"},{"startTime":2397.733,"endTime":2399.543,"body":"was last seen fishing in the river."},{"startTime":2399.693,"endTime":2401.343,"body":"It's a real term, fishing in the river."},{"startTime":2401.343,"endTime":2402.833,"body":"Last seen on a rock, yeah."},{"startTime":2402.833,"endTime":2408.898,"body":"Yeah, so just, just, use their street"},{"startTime":2402.833,"endTime":2408.898,"body":"cred, if you will, but also put in"},{"startTime":2408.898,"endTime":2412.058,"body":"your nuances that are evidence based."},{"startTime":2412.208,"endTime":2412.558,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2412.708,"endTime":2416.398,"body":"On top of that, not only because"},{"startTime":2412.708,"endTime":2416.398,"body":"you want to protect your own"},{"startTime":2416.548,"endTime":2418.428,"body":"credibility, but his as well."},{"startTime":2418.778,"endTime":2422.568,"body":"If you can do that, and you can"},{"startTime":2418.778,"endTime":2422.568,"body":"survive through the first round of."},{"startTime":2422.808,"endTime":2425.178,"body":"Getting this into the"},{"startTime":2422.808,"endTime":2425.178,"body":"market, whatever this is."},{"startTime":2425.218,"endTime":2425.558,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2425.708,"endTime":2427.948,"body":"I think you're really off to a good start."},{"startTime":2428.243,"endTime":2430.853,"body":"I want to skip straight to the"},{"startTime":2428.243,"endTime":2430.853,"body":"end because he, he concludes by."},{"startTime":2430.973,"endTime":2433.753,"body":"By asking, well, he includes the"},{"startTime":2430.973,"endTime":2433.753,"body":"final thoughts, but we're going"},{"startTime":2433.753,"endTime":2436.273,"body":"to skip final thoughts because"},{"startTime":2433.753,"endTime":2436.273,"body":"we're running out of time here."},{"startTime":2436.423,"endTime":2439.193,"body":"Our CPOs, the answer to all this."},{"startTime":2439.203,"endTime":2442.013,"body":"So he says, I'm a strong believer"},{"startTime":2439.203,"endTime":2442.013,"body":"in product management teams, having"},{"startTime":2442.013,"endTime":2445.523,"body":"direct C level representation,"},{"startTime":2442.013,"endTime":2445.523,"body":"right?, it'd be nice to have a rep"},{"startTime":2445.673,"endTime":2447.753,"body":"from the product team on the C suite."},{"startTime":2447.753,"endTime":2449.563,"body":"So that's, that's what"},{"startTime":2447.753,"endTime":2449.563,"body":"he says in the article."},{"startTime":2449.683,"endTime":2453.633,"body":"However, he says some business leaders"},{"startTime":2449.683,"endTime":2453.633,"body":"prefer industry experts or quote"},{"startTime":2453.703,"endTime":2456.273,"body":"business people to take the CPO role."},{"startTime":2456.513,"endTime":2460.493,"body":"These people need to know what they don't"},{"startTime":2456.513,"endTime":2460.493,"body":"know and defer to the product management"},{"startTime":2460.513,"endTime":2462.573,"body":"practitioners, at least some of the time."},{"startTime":2462.723,"endTime":2467.583,"body":"Or, the other scenario, he says, is senior"},{"startTime":2462.723,"endTime":2467.583,"body":"product managers get the chance at the"},{"startTime":2467.583,"endTime":2471.383,"body":"top table and fumble it because they"},{"startTime":2467.583,"endTime":2471.383,"body":"struggle to connect with the C suite."},{"startTime":2471.593,"endTime":2475.683,"body":"These people need coaching,"},{"startTime":2471.593,"endTime":2475.683,"body":"training, and support to thrive."},{"startTime":2475.833,"endTime":2478.213,"body":"Yeah, let's, let's kind of"},{"startTime":2475.833,"endTime":2478.213,"body":"decompose this a little bit."},{"startTime":2478.223,"endTime":2480.543,"body":"So he gives you two"},{"startTime":2478.223,"endTime":2480.543,"body":"alternatives, A or B, right?"},{"startTime":2480.693,"endTime":2480.793,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2481.118,"endTime":2482.358,"body":"Don't know if I agree with that."},{"startTime":2482.468,"endTime":2483.358,"body":"And here's why."},{"startTime":2483.568,"endTime":2487.988,"body":"So A says, Businesses prefer"},{"startTime":2483.568,"endTime":2487.988,"body":"industry experts or business"},{"startTime":2487.988,"endTime":2489.388,"body":"people to take the CPO role."},{"startTime":2489.428,"endTime":2490.138,"body":"Okay, fine."},{"startTime":2490.148,"endTime":2495.568,"body":"What if you have a really hot CPO that"},{"startTime":2490.148,"endTime":2495.568,"body":"comes from outside of your business"},{"startTime":2495.568,"endTime":2498.368,"body":"domain, but they know the business of CPO."},{"startTime":2498.628,"endTime":2500.848,"body":"They know how to handle product."},{"startTime":2501.128,"endTime":2506.288,"body":"It doesn't matter if they were You know,"},{"startTime":2501.128,"endTime":2506.288,"body":"over Mars bars in the past or I don't"},{"startTime":2506.288,"endTime":2508.848,"body":"know, Tesla, whatever, whatever it is."},{"startTime":2508.968,"endTime":2509.588,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":2509.938,"endTime":2511.588,"body":"They know the craft, right?"},{"startTime":2511.598,"endTime":2513.018,"body":"They just don't know your domain."},{"startTime":2513.168,"endTime":2516.338,"body":"Give them the help they need"},{"startTime":2513.168,"endTime":2516.338,"body":"to come in and help you."},{"startTime":2516.578,"endTime":2519.418,"body":"I don't think that's a, I don't"},{"startTime":2516.578,"endTime":2519.418,"body":"think that's a scenario that he"},{"startTime":2519.418,"endTime":2520.988,"body":"outlines as a possibility in here."},{"startTime":2520.998,"endTime":2522.918,"body":"I'm saying alternately, alternately too."},{"startTime":2523.188,"endTime":2525.128,"body":"And also Because he"},{"startTime":2523.188,"endTime":2525.128,"body":"only like outlines too."},{"startTime":2525.128,"endTime":2526.398,"body":"I'm saying this is my third."},{"startTime":2526.408,"endTime":2528.758,"body":"I'm going to back him up on this"},{"startTime":2526.408,"endTime":2528.758,"body":"one because I don't think I've ever"},{"startTime":2528.758,"endTime":2530.878,"body":"seen a CPO, a chief product officer."},{"startTime":2531.038,"endTime":2534.969,"body":"Who came from a strong product"},{"startTime":2531.038,"endTime":2534.969,"body":"management, background who had"},{"startTime":2534.989,"endTime":2538.889,"body":"a strong track record of leading"},{"startTime":2534.989,"endTime":2538.889,"body":"product at different organizations."},{"startTime":2538.889,"endTime":2542.219,"body":"So, so maybe like a director"},{"startTime":2538.889,"endTime":2542.219,"body":"of product someplace or maybe a"},{"startTime":2542.219,"endTime":2543.409,"body":"group product manager someplace."},{"startTime":2543.409,"endTime":2546.949,"body":"And then they moved up into CPO roles"},{"startTime":2543.409,"endTime":2546.949,"body":"and now they landed at my business."},{"startTime":2547.099,"endTime":2551.959,"body":"Basically, that and unicorns, I've seen"},{"startTime":2547.099,"endTime":2551.959,"body":"the exact same number of in my life."},{"startTime":2552.009,"endTime":2553.359,"body":"I can't disagree, right?"},{"startTime":2553.379,"endTime":2558.549,"body":"However, however, this is what I'd say,"},{"startTime":2553.379,"endTime":2558.549,"body":"the art of product management is an"},{"startTime":2558.549,"endTime":2560.789,"body":"art more than it is a science, right?"},{"startTime":2561.099,"endTime":2566.069,"body":"So if somebody has proven their"},{"startTime":2561.099,"endTime":2566.069,"body":"craft, practicing product management"},{"startTime":2566.109,"endTime":2568.919,"body":"in a domain that is not quite yours."},{"startTime":2569.069,"endTime":2574.099,"body":"That doesn't disqualify them"},{"startTime":2569.069,"endTime":2574.099,"body":"from being a candidate in trying"},{"startTime":2574.099,"endTime":2575.269,"body":"to do what you're trying to do."},{"startTime":2575.419,"endTime":2575.519,"body":"It doesn't, right?"},{"startTime":2575.659,"endTime":2576.999,"body":"It doesn't disqualify them."},{"startTime":2576.999,"endTime":2579.219,"body":"They know the core essential skills."},{"startTime":2579.369,"endTime":2582.709,"body":"Give them the domain knowledge"},{"startTime":2579.369,"endTime":2582.709,"body":"and all the support they need."},{"startTime":2583.029,"endTime":2584.699,"body":"Let them write as far as they can."},{"startTime":2584.849,"endTime":2586.119,"body":"And see what they can do."},{"startTime":2586.149,"endTime":2587.949,"body":"Because you never know."},{"startTime":2588.119,"endTime":2590.319,"body":"I don't, I'm not from your planet."},{"startTime":2590.469,"endTime":2591.859,"body":"No, you're not, but that's okay."},{"startTime":2591.859,"endTime":2592.739,"body":"You're in my galaxy."},{"startTime":2592.789,"endTime":2596.589,"body":"I don't, I don't, I'm not quite"},{"startTime":2592.789,"endTime":2596.589,"body":"sure if I am anymore in this galaxy."},{"startTime":2596.639,"endTime":2601.434,"body":"Normally what I see is I see sales"},{"startTime":2596.639,"endTime":2601.434,"body":"people come in who have a large amount,"},{"startTime":2601.684,"endTime":2607.904,"body":"a, a, a very diverse amount of contacts"},{"startTime":2601.684,"endTime":2607.904,"body":"throughout the industry and get tapped"},{"startTime":2607.904,"endTime":2612.774,"body":"for chief product roles in the same"},{"startTime":2607.904,"endTime":2612.774,"body":"way that marketing CMOs work basically,"},{"startTime":2612.904,"endTime":2616.774,"body":"or actually, the other, the, the"},{"startTime":2612.904,"endTime":2616.774,"body":"equivalent is chief revenue officers."},{"startTime":2616.774,"endTime":2617.484,"body":"I've seen that too."},{"startTime":2617.684,"endTime":2621.004,"body":"It basically, they hire them with"},{"startTime":2617.684,"endTime":2621.004,"body":"the CPO role, but they really"},{"startTime":2621.004,"endTime":2626.234,"body":"expect them to do the cRO role"},{"startTime":2621.004,"endTime":2626.234,"body":"that that's, that's what I've seen."},{"startTime":2626.254,"endTime":2630.774,"body":"I've seen salespeople or former"},{"startTime":2626.254,"endTime":2630.774,"body":"operations people get hired and"},{"startTime":2630.784,"endTime":2631.814,"body":"get thrown into this product."},{"startTime":2631.854,"endTime":2635.714,"body":"I don't think I've, I've, again,"},{"startTime":2631.854,"endTime":2635.714,"body":"I've never been at a company that"},{"startTime":2635.714,"endTime":2640.404,"body":"has a experienced product management"},{"startTime":2635.714,"endTime":2640.404,"body":"person with domain expertise"},{"startTime":2640.404,"endTime":2644.924,"body":"together, who has a successful"},{"startTime":2640.404,"endTime":2644.924,"body":"track record of, product management,"},{"startTime":2645.194,"endTime":2647.854,"body":"I don't think we're saying"},{"startTime":2645.194,"endTime":2647.854,"body":"anything too different."},{"startTime":2648.114,"endTime":2651.994,"body":"So what I'm saying is somebody has the"},{"startTime":2648.114,"endTime":2651.994,"body":"experience and they come in, at least give"},{"startTime":2651.994,"endTime":2654.374,"body":"them the rope to either succeed or fail."},{"startTime":2654.524,"endTime":2656.434,"body":"But to your point, yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2656.434,"endTime":2657.234,"body":"I've seen that too."},{"startTime":2657.344,"endTime":2661.614,"body":"Somebody comes in from outside and"},{"startTime":2657.344,"endTime":2661.614,"body":"they just ordained this role, right?"},{"startTime":2661.684,"endTime":2662.384,"body":"I've seen that."},{"startTime":2662.654,"endTime":2663.474,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":2664.124,"endTime":2667.374,"body":"I've seen the cousin of the"},{"startTime":2664.124,"endTime":2667.374,"body":"ceo come in here, right?"},{"startTime":2667.524,"endTime":2672.114,"body":"This guy, 27 year old, fresh"},{"startTime":2667.524,"endTime":2672.114,"body":"out of, Stanford marketing MBA."},{"startTime":2672.264,"endTime":2673.004,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2673.194,"endTime":2674.974,"body":"So I've seen that for sure."},{"startTime":2674.974,"endTime":2675.224,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2675.374,"endTime":2678.374,"body":"But he's outlining two"},{"startTime":2675.374,"endTime":2678.374,"body":"different alternatives here."},{"startTime":2678.424,"endTime":2678.994,"body":"A and B."},{"startTime":2678.994,"endTime":2681.504,"body":"And I'm saying, well,"},{"startTime":2678.994,"endTime":2681.504,"body":"there's probably a C and a D."},{"startTime":2681.604,"endTime":2684.544,"body":"This product person needs to be informed"},{"startTime":2681.604,"endTime":2684.544,"body":"about product management practices."},{"startTime":2684.544,"endTime":2687.074,"body":"They need to understand that like,"},{"startTime":2684.544,"endTime":2687.074,"body":"well show me what we've tried."},{"startTime":2687.224,"endTime":2689.024,"body":"Show me, what the trends look like."},{"startTime":2689.024,"endTime":2692.864,"body":"Show me some, some, I don't know, show"},{"startTime":2689.024,"endTime":2692.864,"body":"me some, some, some product metrics."},{"startTime":2692.904,"endTime":2695.154,"body":"I, they need to, they need to"},{"startTime":2692.904,"endTime":2695.154,"body":"be able to speak the language"},{"startTime":2695.334,"endTime":2696.704,"body":"and not speak the language like."},{"startTime":2696.854,"endTime":2700.214,"body":"You know, hey buddy buy this used"},{"startTime":2696.854,"endTime":2700.214,"body":"car for me speak the language."},{"startTime":2700.254,"endTime":2704.444,"body":"I mean actually know what the language"},{"startTime":2700.254,"endTime":2704.444,"body":"means exactly Yeah, completely devoid"},{"startTime":2704.444,"endTime":2707.174,"body":"of anything that is very subjective."},{"startTime":2707.184,"endTime":2710.934,"body":"It needs to be yeah, you know numbers"},{"startTime":2707.184,"endTime":2710.934,"body":"objective I agree with you there."},{"startTime":2710.994,"endTime":2714.194,"body":"It also means that that product"},{"startTime":2710.994,"endTime":2714.194,"body":"person should not be doing."},{"startTime":2714.194,"endTime":2720.444,"body":"Yes Well again, the problem with this is"},{"startTime":2714.194,"endTime":2720.444,"body":"I see you know, the the the MBA Processing"},{"startTime":2720.444,"endTime":2725.534,"body":"line sending people from MBAs into large"},{"startTime":2720.444,"endTime":2725.534,"body":"businesses like that, they're teaching"},{"startTime":2725.854,"endTime":2727.284,"body":"These people to speak the language."},{"startTime":2727.434,"endTime":2729.734,"body":"But then, again, they're"},{"startTime":2727.434,"endTime":2729.734,"body":"made out of paper."},{"startTime":2729.784,"endTime":2733.574,"body":"And the first time it rains, they"},{"startTime":2729.784,"endTime":2733.574,"body":"completely disintegrate and go"},{"startTime":2733.584,"endTime":2735.064,"body":"back to Gantt charts and whatever."},{"startTime":2735.214,"endTime":2736.594,"body":"That's my concern with this one."},{"startTime":2736.794,"endTime":2737.544,"body":"So, I don't know."},{"startTime":2737.554,"endTime":2740.714,"body":"I don't know if we're I know we've gotten"},{"startTime":2737.554,"endTime":2740.714,"body":"way off topic because  this should have"},{"startTime":2740.714,"endTime":2744.564,"body":"been this talking about CPOs specifically,"},{"startTime":2740.714,"endTime":2744.564,"body":"I had to get through this whole podcast"},{"startTime":2744.574,"endTime":2748.954,"body":"to bring up the topic because I've"},{"startTime":2744.574,"endTime":2748.954,"body":"never seen a CPO that I've worked with"},{"startTime":2749.014,"endTime":2750.914,"body":"that came through product management."},{"startTime":2750.924,"endTime":2755.054,"body":"They've all just been salespeople"},{"startTime":2750.924,"endTime":2755.054,"body":"or operations people or executives,"},{"startTime":2755.884,"endTime":2760.464,"body":"lifers basically who've been tapped"},{"startTime":2755.884,"endTime":2760.464,"body":"to just sit in this chair, which is"},{"startTime":2760.474,"endTime":2763.274,"body":"wild to me because I've, I've never"},{"startTime":2760.474,"endTime":2763.274,"body":"seen that with any other position."},{"startTime":2763.424,"endTime":2766.524,"body":"I've never seen somebody who, who"},{"startTime":2763.424,"endTime":2766.524,"body":"has never sold a thing in their"},{"startTime":2766.524,"endTime":2768.454,"body":"life get tapped to lead sales."},{"startTime":2768.554,"endTime":2772.224,"body":"I've never seen somebody who's never"},{"startTime":2768.554,"endTime":2772.224,"body":"used a computer get tapped to be the CTO."},{"startTime":2772.404,"endTime":2774.054,"body":"that's wild to me."},{"startTime":2774.064,"endTime":2775.394,"body":"It is, absolutely."},{"startTime":2775.414,"endTime":2777.624,"body":"So yeah, first of all,"},{"startTime":2775.414,"endTime":2777.624,"body":"look, I concur with that."},{"startTime":2777.654,"endTime":2779.844,"body":"Ah, CPOs, by the way, that term."},{"startTime":2780.714,"endTime":2786.054,"body":"Isn't all that prevalent unless you're in"},{"startTime":2780.714,"endTime":2786.054,"body":"the, Scrum at Scale type of, discussions."},{"startTime":2786.164,"endTime":2787.834,"body":"More tech space, maybe."},{"startTime":2787.834,"endTime":2788.924,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2789.074,"endTime":2794.434,"body":"Yeah, I mean, so if you're following these"},{"startTime":2789.074,"endTime":2794.434,"body":"rigid scaling structures like SAFE, for"},{"startTime":2794.434,"endTime":2796.874,"body":"example, or LESS, for example, right?"},{"startTime":2796.874,"endTime":2798.384,"body":"Where they devolve everything to a..."},{"startTime":2798.534,"endTime":2801.904,"body":"singular product owner that's"},{"startTime":2798.534,"endTime":2801.904,"body":"across gazillion teams."},{"startTime":2802.474,"endTime":2805.154,"body":"But just, I just want to put it out there"},{"startTime":2802.474,"endTime":2805.154,"body":"because that's a term that you won't"},{"startTime":2805.154,"endTime":2809.319,"body":"necessarily see unless you're in one"},{"startTime":2805.154,"endTime":2809.319,"body":"of these big, heavy scaling framework."},{"startTime":2809.444,"endTime":2810.774,"body":"I think I learned the trick today."},{"startTime":2810.914,"endTime":2814.994,"body":"I think my, my new strategy is going to"},{"startTime":2810.914,"endTime":2814.994,"body":"be to know somebody who knows somebody."},{"startTime":2815.044,"endTime":2816.794,"body":"And, that's how I'll move into CPO."},{"startTime":2816.974,"endTime":2818.604,"body":"I think that's, that's my new career move."},{"startTime":2818.804,"endTime":2820.004,"body":"Know somebody who knows somebody."},{"startTime":2820.014,"endTime":2821.304,"body":"Know somebody who knows somebody."},{"startTime":2821.304,"endTime":2825.164,"body":"I did a lot of work in, in Middle East"},{"startTime":2821.304,"endTime":2825.164,"body":"knowing somebody, knowing somebody."},{"startTime":2825.214,"endTime":2826.004,"body":"Oh, man."},{"startTime":2826.024,"endTime":2830.004,"body":"Well, listen, folks, if you've enjoyed"},{"startTime":2826.024,"endTime":2830.004,"body":"this, And especially if you, especially"},{"startTime":2830.004,"endTime":2831.064,"body":"if you've not enjoyed the podcast."},{"startTime":2831.064,"endTime":2834.724,"body":"Yeah, give us a like anyway, but let us"},{"startTime":2831.064,"endTime":2834.724,"body":"know what you'd like us to talk about."},{"startTime":2834.834,"endTime":2838.274,"body":"And, yeah, and subscribe"},{"startTime":2834.834,"endTime":2838.274,"body":"that, button down below."},{"startTime":2838.354,"endTime":2838.724,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2838.754,"endTime":2841.984,"body":"And if you're Jason Knight, double like,"},{"startTime":2838.754,"endTime":2841.984,"body":"definitely, definitely double like."}]}