{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":5.0,"endTime":6.379,"body":"Welcome back to our Agile"},{"startTime":6.379,"endTime":10.419,"body":"since I am a product manager, I"},{"startTime":6.379,"endTime":10.419,"body":"want to have a podcast specifically"},{"startTime":10.419,"endTime":12.75,"body":"on  this article, it's from 2018."},{"startTime":12.81,"endTime":15.64,"body":"It's, it's, it's quite old, but"},{"startTime":12.81,"endTime":15.64,"body":"also it's not that old, 2018."},{"startTime":15.69,"endTime":19.32,"body":"It's titled, do infrastructure"},{"startTime":15.69,"endTime":19.32,"body":"teams need product management?"},{"startTime":19.54,"endTime":21.92,"body":"I'll link the article, but while"},{"startTime":19.54,"endTime":21.92,"body":"we're talking about it, I'm going"},{"startTime":21.92,"endTime":23.36,"body":"to read through the article."},{"startTime":23.52,"endTime":26.35,"body":"It says many infrastructure"},{"startTime":23.52,"endTime":26.35,"body":"development teams, Ooh, bless you."},{"startTime":26.5,"endTime":30.13,"body":"Many infrastructure development teams"},{"startTime":26.5,"endTime":30.13,"body":"don't have a product manager or have a"},{"startTime":30.14,"endTime":34.92,"body":"fractional product owner slash analysts"},{"startTime":30.14,"endTime":34.92,"body":"working primarily on detailed technical"},{"startTime":34.97,"endTime":39.29,"body":"requirements that forces an architect , or"},{"startTime":34.97,"endTime":39.29,"body":"senior developer to manage a range of"},{"startTime":39.29,"endTime":43.47,"body":"responsibilities they are not interested"},{"startTime":39.29,"endTime":43.47,"body":"in and perhaps not qualified to handle."},{"startTime":43.62,"endTime":48.73,"body":"Sorting conflicting business priorities"},{"startTime":43.62,"endTime":48.73,"body":"internally, quote, selling the value of"},{"startTime":48.73,"endTime":53.22,"body":"architecture and specific improvements,"},{"startTime":48.73,"endTime":53.22,"body":"tying technical decisions to quantitative"},{"startTime":53.25,"endTime":57.62,"body":"business metrics, lobbying for increased"},{"startTime":53.25,"endTime":57.62,"body":"staffing versus other teams, motivating"},{"startTime":57.62,"endTime":61.03,"body":"developers with real world examples"},{"startTime":57.62,"endTime":61.03,"body":"of how their work matters and users."},{"startTime":61.37,"endTime":63.39,"body":"Said another way great development teams."},{"startTime":63.54,"endTime":68.52,"body":"Want to work on great technical problems,"},{"startTime":63.54,"endTime":68.52,"body":"but these never arrived gift wrapped,"},{"startTime":68.54,"endTime":73.6,"body":"or fully defined, or conflict free,"},{"startTime":68.54,"endTime":73.6,"body":"with clearly articulated business value."},{"startTime":73.72,"endTime":77.41,"body":"So, two observations,  observation"},{"startTime":73.72,"endTime":77.41,"body":"number one seasoned motivated"},{"startTime":77.41,"endTime":80.54,"body":"development teams are the scarcest"},{"startTime":77.41,"endTime":80.54,"body":"commodity in the universe."},{"startTime":80.54,"endTime":83.97,"body":"Let's keep them focused on what they do"},{"startTime":80.54,"endTime":83.97,"body":"best and product managers and development"},{"startTime":83.97,"endTime":85.93,"body":"teams solve different problems."},{"startTime":86.06,"endTime":89.21,"body":"We should not force developers to"},{"startTime":86.06,"endTime":89.21,"body":"be product managers or vice versa."},{"startTime":89.36,"endTime":90.705,"body":"Initial take , Om,  go!"},{"startTime":90.855,"endTime":91.995,"body":"Oh, my goodness."},{"startTime":92.025,"endTime":92.505,"body":"Oh, hey."},{"startTime":92.655,"endTime":96.885,"body":"So first of all, this is"},{"startTime":92.655,"endTime":96.885,"body":"so so so bipolar, right?"},{"startTime":96.905,"endTime":100.995,"body":"First of all, seasoned, motivated"},{"startTime":96.905,"endTime":100.995,"body":"development teams, not the"},{"startTime":100.995,"endTime":103.205,"body":"scarcest commodity in the universe."},{"startTime":103.355,"endTime":106.655,"body":"Let them keep focused"},{"startTime":103.355,"endTime":106.655,"body":"on what they do best."},{"startTime":106.765,"endTime":107.245,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":107.455,"endTime":107.905,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":107.925,"endTime":113.745,"body":"So you know, those people that are like,"},{"startTime":107.925,"endTime":113.745,"body":"overseeing teams that are almost circling"},{"startTime":113.745,"endTime":116.135,"body":"the drain, PMO, you know who you are."},{"startTime":116.335,"endTime":119.055,"body":"Okay, you might agree, but"},{"startTime":116.335,"endTime":119.055,"body":"product managers and dev teams"},{"startTime":119.055,"endTime":120.475,"body":"solve different problems."},{"startTime":120.625,"endTime":121.795,"body":"Think about that for a second."},{"startTime":121.885,"endTime":125.595,"body":"Product managers and development"},{"startTime":121.885,"endTime":125.595,"body":"teams solve different problems."},{"startTime":125.605,"endTime":129.565,"body":"It's like saying, people that are putting"},{"startTime":125.605,"endTime":129.565,"body":"up the scaffolding on your home, Putting"},{"startTime":129.565,"endTime":133.805,"body":"in one breeze block over another and"},{"startTime":129.565,"endTime":133.805,"body":"putting some, you know, filling in between"},{"startTime":133.895,"endTime":138.925,"body":"are solving a different problem than Your"},{"startTime":133.895,"endTime":138.925,"body":"builder or your architect or your whatever"},{"startTime":138.965,"endTime":141.165,"body":"plumber You're moving into a home."},{"startTime":141.165,"endTime":145.625,"body":"You want all of all of it to work"},{"startTime":141.165,"endTime":145.625,"body":"together when you move in you don't"},{"startTime":145.625,"endTime":149.505,"body":"want just The building infrastructure"},{"startTime":145.625,"endTime":149.505,"body":"to be solid and then when you flip"},{"startTime":149.505,"endTime":153.335,"body":"the light switch on there's there's no"},{"startTime":149.505,"endTime":153.335,"body":"light because you know, see electricians"},{"startTime":153.485,"endTime":154.865,"body":"Yeah, they're not part of it."},{"startTime":155.015,"endTime":155.925,"body":"I see that here."},{"startTime":156.095,"endTime":159.435,"body":"We should not force developers to"},{"startTime":156.095,"endTime":159.435,"body":"be product managers or vice versa"},{"startTime":159.585,"endTime":163.67,"body":"My biggest issue is when they say"},{"startTime":159.585,"endTime":163.67,"body":"great development teams want to"},{"startTime":163.68,"endTime":166.02,"body":"work on great technical problems."},{"startTime":166.22,"endTime":168.46,"body":"That is a loaded statement."},{"startTime":168.61,"endTime":172.69,"body":"I think, not only do I not agree"},{"startTime":168.61,"endTime":172.69,"body":"with it, I would reframe that."},{"startTime":172.76,"endTime":177.745,"body":"Great development teams need to"},{"startTime":172.76,"endTime":177.745,"body":"work on solving great problems."},{"startTime":177.895,"endTime":181.075,"body":"Business problems because"},{"startTime":177.895,"endTime":181.075,"body":"technical problems."},{"startTime":181.095,"endTime":182.965,"body":"Okay, you can solve them, right?"},{"startTime":183.145,"endTime":187.675,"body":"You can, you can do all of the technical"},{"startTime":183.145,"endTime":187.675,"body":"work and you might get paid for a little"},{"startTime":187.675,"endTime":189.945,"body":"while, but that's not sustainable."},{"startTime":190.155,"endTime":191.125,"body":"It's the business."},{"startTime":191.235,"endTime":193.595,"body":"What's what need are you solving?"},{"startTime":193.745,"endTime":195.505,"body":"I don't know if I I think I disagree."},{"startTime":195.555,"endTime":199.275,"body":"Let's, let's, let's talk to,"},{"startTime":195.555,"endTime":199.275,"body":"let's talk to the first statement."},{"startTime":199.275,"endTime":203.385,"body":"Cause I, I, we use, you zip through the"},{"startTime":199.275,"endTime":203.385,"body":"first statement, see seasoned motivated,"},{"startTime":203.385,"endTime":206.355,"body":"which, which is not honestly, it's not"},{"startTime":203.385,"endTime":206.355,"body":"very much of a statement that I'm going"},{"startTime":206.355,"endTime":209.795,"body":"to try to defend here, but let me try"},{"startTime":206.355,"endTime":209.795,"body":"to jump in front of this moving train."},{"startTime":209.945,"endTime":214.345,"body":"Seasoned motivated development teams are"},{"startTime":209.945,"endTime":214.345,"body":"the scarcest commodity in the universe."},{"startTime":214.345,"endTime":215.895,"body":"Let's keep the focus on what they do best."},{"startTime":216.065,"endTime":216.825,"body":"The, the."},{"startTime":216.975,"endTime":222.245,"body":"The subtext of that one, where I can"},{"startTime":216.975,"endTime":222.245,"body":"get on board not agreeing is let's keep"},{"startTime":222.245,"endTime":223.945,"body":"these developers hands on keyboard."},{"startTime":223.955,"endTime":228.175,"body":"Like the, the way that I see this"},{"startTime":223.955,"endTime":228.175,"body":"actualized in the universe, in my"},{"startTime":228.175,"endTime":229.915,"body":"career, I don't agree with that."},{"startTime":230.065,"endTime":232.605,"body":"Meaning, why do I need"},{"startTime":230.065,"endTime":232.605,"body":"to talk to customers?"},{"startTime":232.725,"endTime":235.395,"body":"Why do I need to have all"},{"startTime":232.725,"endTime":235.395,"body":"my developers in the demo?"},{"startTime":235.395,"endTime":236.895,"body":"Why don't I just have"},{"startTime":235.395,"endTime":236.895,"body":"my lead developer do it?"},{"startTime":236.895,"endTime":238.345,"body":"Or why don't I have my QA people do it?"},{"startTime":238.345,"endTime":239.375,"body":"Because it's not that important."},{"startTime":239.665,"endTime":239.855,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":240.045,"endTime":241.875,"body":"Like that, that sentiment out of this."},{"startTime":242.025,"endTime":243.585,"body":"Is the wrong sentiment."},{"startTime":243.595,"endTime":247.285,"body":"Now, what I, what I think the author here"},{"startTime":243.595,"endTime":247.285,"body":"and we'll, we can get through the rest of"},{"startTime":247.285,"endTime":251.235,"body":"the article to confirm this, but what I"},{"startTime":247.285,"endTime":251.235,"body":"think the author here is trying to say is."},{"startTime":251.385,"endTime":255.055,"body":"Development teams that are tuned into"},{"startTime":251.385,"endTime":255.055,"body":"business problems, and development teams"},{"startTime":255.055,"endTime":257.895,"body":"that work well together, meaning they've"},{"startTime":255.055,"endTime":257.895,"body":"been around a while and they understand"},{"startTime":258.205,"endTime":262.165,"body":"and how to consider the customer first,"},{"startTime":258.205,"endTime":262.165,"body":"as opposed to whatever other things."},{"startTime":262.415,"endTime":265.485,"body":"That is a, that is a rare"},{"startTime":262.415,"endTime":265.485,"body":"occurrence in the wild."},{"startTime":265.625,"endTime":267.015,"body":"I think that's where he's going with this."},{"startTime":267.165,"endTime":268.695,"body":"I agree, but why do you think that is?"},{"startTime":268.835,"endTime":269.955,"body":"I know where you're going, right?"},{"startTime":269.955,"endTime":271.345,"body":"It's that customer centricity."},{"startTime":271.405,"endTime":274.015,"body":"We can come up with the best"},{"startTime":271.405,"endTime":274.015,"body":"widget ever on the planet."},{"startTime":274.165,"endTime":274.965,"body":"Is it really?"},{"startTime":275.305,"endTime":276.315,"body":"Did by anybody?"},{"startTime":276.355,"endTime":276.935,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":276.935,"endTime":277.685,"body":"What cause is that?"},{"startTime":277.695,"endTime":278.885,"body":"See, that is an interesting question."},{"startTime":278.995,"endTime":281.345,"body":"Why is it so scarce?"},{"startTime":281.565,"endTime":282.995,"body":"I mean, many factors?"},{"startTime":283.145,"endTime":286.935,"body":"Well, number one number one first"},{"startTime":283.145,"endTime":286.935,"body":"of all, consider every team that is"},{"startTime":286.935,"endTime":290.465,"body":"not an agile team, meaning they're,"},{"startTime":286.935,"endTime":290.465,"body":"they're put together around a strong"},{"startTime":290.465,"endTime":294.195,"body":"personality and they stay together"},{"startTime":290.465,"endTime":294.195,"body":"and they stay working as long as"},{"startTime":294.205,"endTime":296.145,"body":"that strong personality stays there."},{"startTime":296.155,"endTime":299.895,"body":"Kind of sheltering them from the worst of"},{"startTime":296.155,"endTime":299.895,"body":"the organization and that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":299.895,"endTime":301.145,"body":"And then when that person goes away."},{"startTime":301.46,"endTime":303.97,"body":"Then the team starts degrading"},{"startTime":301.46,"endTime":303.97,"body":"as demands of the business."},{"startTime":303.97,"endTime":304.39,"body":"Culture."},{"startTime":304.39,"endTime":307.8,"body":"Number one would never let a"},{"startTime":304.39,"endTime":307.8,"body":"season motivated development"},{"startTime":307.8,"endTime":309.02,"body":"team form in the first place."},{"startTime":309.31,"endTime":311.46,"body":"So number one, your"},{"startTime":309.31,"endTime":311.46,"body":"culture has to be right."},{"startTime":311.69,"endTime":314.5,"body":"Number two, the right people have"},{"startTime":311.69,"endTime":314.5,"body":"to meet because you could have the"},{"startTime":314.5,"endTime":316.74,"body":"right culture and the wrong people"},{"startTime":314.5,"endTime":316.74,"body":"leading your development teams,"},{"startTime":316.97,"endTime":318.26,"body":"and they'll still sabotage this."},{"startTime":318.41,"endTime":319.08,"body":"And then."},{"startTime":319.205,"endTime":321.245,"body":". You're coming, you might have the"},{"startTime":319.205,"endTime":321.245,"body":"right culture, you might have the"},{"startTime":321.245,"endTime":324.495,"body":"right people, but you do projects, so"},{"startTime":321.245,"endTime":324.495,"body":"you're constantly disbanding teams."},{"startTime":324.745,"endTime":328.595,"body":"You're constantly reforming teams, or"},{"startTime":324.745,"endTime":328.595,"body":"maybe, maybe you're all in on this whole"},{"startTime":328.605,"endTime":332.405,"body":"fluid team concept that I just can't"},{"startTime":328.605,"endTime":332.405,"body":"understand because I have a little tiny"},{"startTime":332.405,"endTime":337.035,"body":"brain and I just can't my brain can't get"},{"startTime":332.405,"endTime":337.035,"body":"it of you're constantly shuffling people"},{"startTime":337.035,"endTime":339.175,"body":"between teams, so nobody ever gets it."},{"startTime":339.325,"endTime":341.845,"body":"Working with different people"},{"startTime":339.325,"endTime":341.845,"body":"so you never get that cohesion."},{"startTime":342.155,"endTime":345.725,"body":"There could be a million reasons for"},{"startTime":342.155,"endTime":345.725,"body":"this first one of why you never..."},{"startTime":345.875,"endTime":350.855,"body":"At your organization, get a single"},{"startTime":345.875,"endTime":350.855,"body":"season motivated development"},{"startTime":350.855,"endTime":351.165,"body":"team."},{"startTime":351.285,"endTime":352.545,"body":"I had this discussion today."},{"startTime":352.735,"endTime":353.82,"body":"What is that?"},{"startTime":354.0,"endTime":355.19,"body":"What is what is the culture?"},{"startTime":355.38,"endTime":358.25,"body":"Culture for me is a"},{"startTime":355.38,"endTime":358.25,"body":"byproduct of four things."},{"startTime":358.4,"endTime":363.465,"body":"You know, our culture is a byproduct"},{"startTime":358.4,"endTime":363.465,"body":"of the people., the organization is"},{"startTime":363.465,"endTime":365.085,"body":"nothing if it's not for the people."},{"startTime":365.235,"endTime":370.705,"body":"The processes that those peoples have put"},{"startTime":365.235,"endTime":370.705,"body":"in place, those people or people above or"},{"startTime":370.855,"endTime":375.575,"body":"Before them, there's these processes that"},{"startTime":370.855,"endTime":375.575,"body":"you have to follow the policies, right?"},{"startTime":375.725,"endTime":380.345,"body":"So that's the third one and then"},{"startTime":375.725,"endTime":380.345,"body":"and then the other one is for me for"},{"startTime":380.365,"endTime":386.055,"body":"Organizational culture is really talking"},{"startTime":380.365,"endTime":386.055,"body":"about the one thing that I find it very"},{"startTime":386.065,"endTime":391.935,"body":"very difficult to quantify Which is the"},{"startTime":386.065,"endTime":391.935,"body":"the other P which is the politics every"},{"startTime":391.935,"endTime":395.925,"body":"organization has politics Yeah, if you"},{"startTime":391.935,"endTime":395.925,"body":"think your organization doesn't have"},{"startTime":395.935,"endTime":399.285,"body":"politics, you're kidding yourself is"},{"startTime":395.935,"endTime":399.285,"body":"or you're just too naive maybe this is"},{"startTime":399.285,"endTime":401.145,"body":"your first job but you'll learn, right?"},{"startTime":401.195,"endTime":403.705,"body":"You just dust yourself off"},{"startTime":401.195,"endTime":403.705,"body":"and, and, and you'll learn."},{"startTime":404.025,"endTime":408.245,"body":"So those are the four factors"},{"startTime":404.025,"endTime":408.245,"body":"that I think form an org culture."},{"startTime":408.37,"endTime":411.67,"body":"Now, now that you know what"},{"startTime":408.37,"endTime":411.67,"body":"those factors are, right?"},{"startTime":411.88,"endTime":413.34,"body":"Think about what you can influence."},{"startTime":413.49,"endTime":414.66,"body":"Can you influence all of them?"},{"startTime":414.69,"endTime":416.65,"body":"So you can influence"},{"startTime":414.69,"endTime":416.65,"body":"culture and instantality."},{"startTime":416.8,"endTime":419.53,"body":"If you can, let us know because"},{"startTime":416.8,"endTime":419.53,"body":"I'd love to learn about that."},{"startTime":419.68,"endTime":420.56,"body":"I found that..."},{"startTime":420.835,"endTime":425.715,"body":"Most people cannot influence much"},{"startTime":420.835,"endTime":425.715,"body":"more than just the process side."},{"startTime":425.865,"endTime":427.955,"body":"Especially, it doesn't"},{"startTime":425.865,"endTime":427.955,"body":"really matter actually."},{"startTime":427.955,"endTime":429.595,"body":"I was going to say, especially"},{"startTime":427.955,"endTime":429.595,"body":"if you're from the, the"},{"startTime":429.595,"endTime":431.005,"body":"process side of the equation."},{"startTime":431.005,"endTime":432.575,"body":"You know, the scrum masters"},{"startTime":431.005,"endTime":432.575,"body":"of the world, right?"},{"startTime":432.575,"endTime":433.565,"body":"Or agile coach, whatever."},{"startTime":433.825,"endTime":439.775,"body":"Even if you're product, you're really not"},{"startTime":433.825,"endTime":439.775,"body":"influencing the other three things, right?"},{"startTime":439.925,"endTime":441.525,"body":"You're only talking about the process."},{"startTime":441.525,"endTime":444.495,"body":"We can deliver this product in"},{"startTime":441.525,"endTime":444.495,"body":"the context of this time frame, in"},{"startTime":444.495,"endTime":448.535,"body":"the context of who the customer,"},{"startTime":444.495,"endTime":448.535,"body":"the target audience is, right?"},{"startTime":448.685,"endTime":454.075,"body":"And then, what does it mean for us"},{"startTime":448.685,"endTime":454.075,"body":"to meet that versus not meet that?"},{"startTime":454.185,"endTime":455.545,"body":"You can talk about that, right?"},{"startTime":455.785,"endTime":456.445,"body":"That's about it."},{"startTime":456.455,"endTime":457.435,"body":"That's the extent of it."},{"startTime":457.585,"endTime":461.845,"body":"So, large companies that are"},{"startTime":457.585,"endTime":461.845,"body":"out there, their org culture"},{"startTime":461.975,"endTime":464.875,"body":"has not remained static, right?"},{"startTime":464.925,"endTime":467.325,"body":"I'm going to repeat that for those"},{"startTime":464.925,"endTime":467.325,"body":"of you in the back of the room."},{"startTime":467.475,"endTime":470.365,"body":"The culture of an org"},{"startTime":467.475,"endTime":470.365,"body":"is not a static thing."},{"startTime":470.515,"endTime":472.165,"body":"It morphs over time."},{"startTime":472.315,"endTime":476.785,"body":"You come in at a certain point in that"},{"startTime":472.315,"endTime":476.785,"body":"fabric and you go, Yeah, I understand it."},{"startTime":476.935,"endTime":478.445,"body":"But, it changes."},{"startTime":478.755,"endTime":480.555,"body":"So by the time you've had long enough."},{"startTime":480.705,"endTime":482.045,"body":"to make a difference."},{"startTime":482.085,"endTime":482.655,"body":"Guess what?"},{"startTime":482.735,"endTime":485.655,"body":"You're not making a difference on what you"},{"startTime":482.735,"endTime":485.655,"body":"thought you were making a difference on."},{"startTime":485.665,"endTime":486.555,"body":"It's changed."},{"startTime":486.785,"endTime":487.005,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":487.035,"endTime":487.355,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":487.505,"endTime":491.395,"body":"A couple of examples, just"},{"startTime":487.505,"endTime":491.395,"body":"because I'm kind of on this rant."},{"startTime":491.645,"endTime":495.455,"body":"Who would have thunk it 20 years ago"},{"startTime":491.645,"endTime":495.455,"body":"that you would have things like self"},{"startTime":495.455,"endTime":498.485,"body":"driving cars, Teslas, or Uber, or Grubhub."},{"startTime":498.655,"endTime":501.795,"body":"People would actually bring food to"},{"startTime":498.655,"endTime":501.795,"body":"you when you can just demand it, right?"},{"startTime":501.825,"endTime":503.335,"body":"It didn't, it didn't exist."},{"startTime":503.615,"endTime":506.635,"body":"You actually still had to go out"},{"startTime":503.615,"endTime":506.635,"body":"and you could put orders in, sure."},{"startTime":506.785,"endTime":507.745,"body":"Yeah, it was a nap."},{"startTime":507.825,"endTime":510.035,"body":"It was a phone call, but"},{"startTime":507.825,"endTime":510.035,"body":"you have to go get it."},{"startTime":510.055,"endTime":510.305,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":510.515,"endTime":512.015,"body":"Now they deliver it to your home."},{"startTime":512.345,"endTime":512.955,"body":"Oh, guess what?"},{"startTime":512.955,"endTime":515.565,"body":"If it's not there within a"},{"startTime":512.955,"endTime":515.565,"body":"certain time frame, they comp it."},{"startTime":515.565,"endTime":516.235,"body":"It's free."},{"startTime":516.315,"endTime":517.485,"body":"Domino's does that."},{"startTime":517.595,"endTime":518.825,"body":"30 minutes or it's free."},{"startTime":519.125,"endTime":522.725,"body":"So, all of that to say,"},{"startTime":519.125,"endTime":522.725,"body":"the landscape is changing."},{"startTime":522.875,"endTime":525.345,"body":"The old culture goes along with that."},{"startTime":525.355,"endTime":528.445,"body":"And if you're not keeping pace"},{"startTime":525.355,"endTime":528.445,"body":"with that, I pity the fool,"},{"startTime":528.485,"endTime":530.525,"body":"as the what was it 18, 18, Mr."},{"startTime":530.725,"endTime":531.145,"body":"T."},{"startTime":531.335,"endTime":531.995,"body":"18, Mr."},{"startTime":531.995,"endTime":532.685,"body":"T, that's right."},{"startTime":532.685,"endTime":535.615,"body":"He, he, he wouldn't fly,"},{"startTime":532.685,"endTime":535.615,"body":"but he pitied the fool."},{"startTime":535.645,"endTime":537.005,"body":"What about this oh, he flew."},{"startTime":537.155,"endTime":538.715,"body":"He, he, under protest."},{"startTime":538.715,"endTime":540.255,"body":"He just had to stab him"},{"startTime":538.715,"endTime":540.255,"body":"in the neck, that's right."},{"startTime":540.475,"endTime":542.855,"body":"Did what about the product"},{"startTime":540.475,"endTime":542.855,"body":"managers and development teams"},{"startTime":542.855,"endTime":543.765,"body":"solve different problems?"},{"startTime":543.965,"endTime":544.895,"body":", let's argue on that one."},{"startTime":545.005,"endTime":548.785,"body":"Like, the, the, where he's probably"},{"startTime":545.005,"endTime":548.785,"body":"coming from, again, I can't see the"},{"startTime":548.785,"endTime":550.375,"body":"underlying tweets because you know."},{"startTime":550.375,"endTime":552.54,"body":"Because Apparently X is"},{"startTime":550.375,"endTime":552.54,"body":"not going to give it to me."},{"startTime":552.71,"endTime":555.35,"body":"We don't have time for these zingers"},{"startTime":552.71,"endTime":555.35,"body":"like we know we're trying to move."},{"startTime":555.54,"endTime":561.29,"body":"I think what the implication here is"},{"startTime":555.54,"endTime":561.29,"body":"product managers solve the what and why"},{"startTime":561.44,"endTime":565.49,"body":"development teams solve the how he's"},{"startTime":561.44,"endTime":565.49,"body":"drawing a delineation between product"},{"startTime":565.49,"endTime":568.63,"body":"management, not product owner, product"},{"startTime":565.49,"endTime":568.63,"body":"management and development teams."},{"startTime":568.63,"endTime":570.28,"body":"I think that's where he's"},{"startTime":568.63,"endTime":570.28,"body":"going with this statement."},{"startTime":570.43,"endTime":571.0,"body":"He is"},{"startTime":571.05,"endTime":571.68,"body":"clearly right."},{"startTime":571.68,"endTime":575.45,"body":"But I actually vehemently disagree"},{"startTime":571.68,"endTime":575.45,"body":"with this because at the end of the"},{"startTime":575.45,"endTime":579.08,"body":"day, talk to your customer and say,"},{"startTime":575.45,"endTime":579.08,"body":"we're solving the what with this and"},{"startTime":579.08,"endTime":581.15,"body":"the how with this ain't gonna fly."},{"startTime":581.3,"endTime":584.8,"body":"They want a solution for"},{"startTime":581.3,"endTime":584.8,"body":"what their need is, right?"},{"startTime":584.91,"endTime":586.4,"body":"So get it together, right?"},{"startTime":586.59,"endTime":591.31,"body":"They don't care the what the how and you"},{"startTime":586.59,"endTime":591.31,"body":"know, they tell you what their need is."},{"startTime":591.46,"endTime":596.35,"body":"I understand what you're saying, but I,"},{"startTime":591.46,"endTime":596.35,"body":"I, I put that back on product management."},{"startTime":596.36,"endTime":597.74,"body":"If you have a product manager."},{"startTime":598.04,"endTime":601.93,"body":"Who thinks in terms of solutions,"},{"startTime":598.04,"endTime":601.93,"body":"for example, they don't think in"},{"startTime":601.93,"endTime":604.99,"body":"terms of problems and they bring"},{"startTime":601.93,"endTime":604.99,"body":"the development team constantly."},{"startTime":604.99,"endTime":606.88,"body":"I need you to build this"},{"startTime":604.99,"endTime":606.88,"body":"solution or this solution."},{"startTime":607.09,"endTime":609.66,"body":"Maybe it's not fair to pin"},{"startTime":607.09,"endTime":609.66,"body":"it on the product manager."},{"startTime":609.71,"endTime":612.85,"body":"I kind of think it is, but maybe it's not"},{"startTime":609.71,"endTime":612.85,"body":"fair to pin it on the product manager."},{"startTime":612.87,"endTime":615.77,"body":"Maybe it's your sales people who"},{"startTime":612.87,"endTime":615.77,"body":"are demanding the solution and the"},{"startTime":615.77,"endTime":618.94,"body":"product manager is just being a pass"},{"startTime":615.77,"endTime":618.94,"body":"through to the development team."},{"startTime":618.97,"endTime":621.67,"body":"I certainly seen that"},{"startTime":618.97,"endTime":621.67,"body":"many times, but also."},{"startTime":621.82,"endTime":625.81,"body":"There is fault with the product manager"},{"startTime":621.82,"endTime":625.81,"body":"in that instance because it they are the"},{"startTime":625.81,"endTime":630.55,"body":"gatekeeper to the business Back to the"},{"startTime":625.81,"endTime":630.55,"body":"development team in that I understand"},{"startTime":630.55,"endTime":634.5,"body":"what you're saying Yeah, but I like"},{"startTime":630.55,"endTime":634.5,"body":"I'm I'm I'm casting I'm casting fault"},{"startTime":634.53,"endTime":637.76,"body":"on multiple people in this I'm writing"},{"startTime":634.53,"endTime":637.76,"body":"tickets left and right in this equation"},{"startTime":637.76,"endTime":638.97,"body":"Yeah, Jira is falling out."},{"startTime":638.99,"endTime":639.6,"body":"So I know it"},{"startTime":639.6,"endTime":641.21,"body":"definitely I'm writing parking tickets."},{"startTime":641.36,"endTime":642.63,"body":"I'm telling cars right now."},{"startTime":642.78,"endTime":644.07,"body":"I Agree, I agree."},{"startTime":644.07,"endTime":647.72,"body":"First of all that You know, your"},{"startTime":644.07,"endTime":647.72,"body":"assertion about the product managers."},{"startTime":647.87,"endTime":650.97,"body":"So, so the thing about this"},{"startTime":647.87,"endTime":650.97,"body":"is the product managers are"},{"startTime":650.98,"endTime":653.26,"body":"doing what they think is right."},{"startTime":653.44,"endTime":655.71,"body":"But how do they know what's right?"},{"startTime":655.86,"endTime":658.63,"body":"Bring the customer in, bring"},{"startTime":655.86,"endTime":658.63,"body":"them in, bring them into the"},{"startTime":658.63,"endTime":661.98,"body":"discussions and say, what are we"},{"startTime":658.63,"endTime":661.98,"body":"trying to solve for you, right?"},{"startTime":662.12,"endTime":663.25,"body":"I'm a product person."},{"startTime":663.44,"endTime":666.6,"body":"I can, I can talk about the"},{"startTime":663.44,"endTime":666.6,"body":"attributes, the features, blah,"},{"startTime":666.6,"endTime":668.07,"body":"blah, blah of a product, right?"},{"startTime":668.1,"endTime":670.12,"body":"And the delivery timeframe,"},{"startTime":668.1,"endTime":670.12,"body":"whatever you want to talk about."},{"startTime":670.41,"endTime":671.67,"body":"Here are the development teams."},{"startTime":671.82,"endTime":675.43,"body":"They can talk about the how, but"},{"startTime":671.82,"endTime":675.43,"body":"chances are you only care about the how."},{"startTime":675.47,"endTime":676.02,"body":"Like, I'm,"},{"startTime":676.07,"endTime":677.42,"body":"I'm, I understand where you're going."},{"startTime":677.46,"endTime":679.315,"body":"But the way I interpret it is exactly."},{"startTime":679.315,"endTime":680.175,"body":"I could read the very next."},{"startTime":680.175,"endTime":680.995,"body":"I could read."},{"startTime":681.055,"endTime":683.565,"body":"The funny thing is I could read the"},{"startTime":681.055,"endTime":683.565,"body":"very next paragraph and his very"},{"startTime":683.565,"endTime":686.145,"body":"next paragraph might completely"},{"startTime":683.565,"endTime":686.145,"body":"undermine what I'm about to say."},{"startTime":686.145,"endTime":691.035,"body":"But what, what I think he's saying is"},{"startTime":686.145,"endTime":691.035,"body":"product managers, the developers, if you"},{"startTime":691.035,"endTime":692.525,"body":"walk over to the developer and you say."},{"startTime":692.77,"endTime":696.24,"body":"I listened to the the, the Lenny's"},{"startTime":692.77,"endTime":696.24,"body":"podcast recently and he had a, he had"},{"startTime":696.24,"endTime":699.9,"body":"somebody on who said, I asked three"},{"startTime":696.24,"endTime":699.9,"body":"people on the development team what"},{"startTime":699.9,"endTime":704.52,"body":"they were doing this sprint and one of"},{"startTime":699.9,"endTime":704.52,"body":"them told me,  I'm putting bricks into"},{"startTime":704.52,"endTime":708.61,"body":"this wall and the other one told me I'm"},{"startTime":704.52,"endTime":708.61,"body":"building a wall and the last one told"},{"startTime":708.61,"endTime":712.91,"body":"me I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm building a Church"},{"startTime":708.61,"endTime":712.91,"body":"or cathedral or something like that."},{"startTime":713.09,"endTime":716.58,"body":"And you ask the product manager and you"},{"startTime":713.09,"endTime":716.58,"body":"say, what is your team doing this sprint?"},{"startTime":716.78,"endTime":720.0,"body":"And the product manager says, we're"},{"startTime":716.78,"endTime":720.0,"body":"building this giant cathedral."},{"startTime":720.15,"endTime":721.67,"body":"So like, obviously."},{"startTime":721.82,"endTime":724.86,"body":"Everyone has a different"},{"startTime":721.82,"endTime":724.86,"body":"picture of the vision like that."},{"startTime":725.08,"endTime":725.28,"body":"the"},{"startTime":725.43,"endTime":728.15,"body":"end vision that the whole team"},{"startTime":725.43,"endTime":728.15,"body":"is driving to and you need"},{"startTime":728.15,"endTime":729.23,"body":"to drive towards that vision."},{"startTime":729.24,"endTime":729.96,"body":"That's your job."},{"startTime":729.97,"endTime":732.13,"body":"Your job is leading the"},{"startTime":729.97,"endTime":732.13,"body":"team towards that vision."},{"startTime":732.34,"endTime":735.64,"body":"The team's job is to take it"},{"startTime":732.34,"endTime":735.64,"body":"one brick at a time to build a"},{"startTime":735.64,"endTime":739.01,"body":"cathedral and solve the problems"},{"startTime":735.64,"endTime":739.01,"body":"as they're putting the bricks down."},{"startTime":739.205,"endTime":739.885,"body":"Oh crap."},{"startTime":739.885,"endTime":742.255,"body":"How do I put a brick where"},{"startTime":739.885,"endTime":742.255,"body":"a window is supposed to be?"},{"startTime":742.405,"endTime":743.685,"body":"Where do I even get windows from?"},{"startTime":743.835,"endTime":745.055,"body":"Who do I buy windows from?"},{"startTime":745.205,"endTime":748.66,"body":"Like the development team's"},{"startTime":745.205,"endTime":748.66,"body":"job  it's to build a cathedral,"},{"startTime":748.66,"endTime":750.45,"body":"but it's to do it brick by brick."},{"startTime":750.6,"endTime":753.49,"body":"The job they're doing is much"},{"startTime":750.6,"endTime":753.49,"body":"more granular than the product"},{"startTime":753.52,"endTime":755.16,"body":"manager in this, in this aspect."},{"startTime":755.18,"endTime":758.55,"body":"Now, if you're gonna, if you're gonna"},{"startTime":755.18,"endTime":758.55,"body":"crowbar product manager, product"},{"startTime":758.55,"endTime":762.23,"body":"owner apart, then there might be"},{"startTime":758.55,"endTime":762.23,"body":"a little more quibbling in here."},{"startTime":762.45,"endTime":764.88,"body":"A bit more bones of contention."},{"startTime":765.03,"endTime":766.86,"body":"First of all, I agree"},{"startTime":765.03,"endTime":766.86,"body":"with what you're saying."},{"startTime":767.01,"endTime":769.185,"body":"However,  look at that first one, right?"},{"startTime":769.535,"endTime":771.105,"body":"Product managers, developers to solve"},{"startTime":771.105,"endTime":772.105,"body":"different problems."},{"startTime":772.105,"endTime":773.635,"body":"Developers, think about their skill sets."},{"startTime":773.785,"endTime":777.735,"body":"They're wired to solve the"},{"startTime":773.785,"endTime":777.735,"body":"technical issues, right?"},{"startTime":777.835,"endTime":777.925,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":777.925,"endTime":781.415,"body":"They're wired to look at"},{"startTime":777.925,"endTime":781.415,"body":"something as a problem statement."},{"startTime":781.565,"endTime":784.895,"body":"And come up with what they"},{"startTime":781.565,"endTime":784.895,"body":"believe is a solution statement."},{"startTime":785.045,"endTime":786.005,"body":"That's how they're wired."},{"startTime":786.345,"endTime":787.135,"body":"How do I know?"},{"startTime":787.435,"endTime":788.805,"body":"I used to be a developer, right?"},{"startTime":789.125,"endTime":793.155,"body":"So I have put up Hello World in more"},{"startTime":789.125,"endTime":793.155,"body":"languages than most people have."},{"startTime":793.305,"endTime":794.385,"body":"Here's what I tell you."},{"startTime":794.535,"endTime":796.705,"body":"Did I know why I'm putting on Hello World?"},{"startTime":796.855,"endTime":797.245,"body":"No."},{"startTime":797.395,"endTime":799.225,"body":"Because that's what you do, right?"},{"startTime":799.505,"endTime":802.905,"body":"So that's an, that, I know it's"},{"startTime":799.505,"endTime":802.905,"body":"trivial, but it's an example."},{"startTime":803.055,"endTime":807.715,"body":"As a developer, you're focused"},{"startTime":803.055,"endTime":807.715,"body":"on the technical solution."},{"startTime":807.865,"endTime":814.985,"body":"To meet a need that is a technical need"},{"startTime":807.865,"endTime":814.985,"body":"as a product person, you have to have"},{"startTime":814.985,"endTime":820.645,"body":"the purview of why that technical need"},{"startTime":814.985,"endTime":820.645,"body":"exists in the bigger picture, right?"},{"startTime":820.875,"endTime":824.665,"body":"And the bigger picture isn't"},{"startTime":820.875,"endTime":824.665,"body":"just about your provider org."},{"startTime":824.685,"endTime":827.645,"body":"It's about the consuming"},{"startTime":824.685,"endTime":827.645,"body":"org, your customers, right?"},{"startTime":827.865,"endTime":829.335,"body":"Why do they need what they need?"},{"startTime":829.485,"endTime":834.725,"body":"But then also on the side almost"},{"startTime":829.485,"endTime":834.725,"body":"like a margin, you know on a notebook"},{"startTime":834.875,"endTime":837.945,"body":"if you know what the customer"},{"startTime":834.875,"endTime":837.945,"body":"needs Why are they coming to you?"},{"startTime":838.07,"endTime":840.83,"body":"They have sources they"},{"startTime":838.07,"endTime":840.83,"body":"have alternatives, right?"},{"startTime":840.86,"endTime":841.74,"body":"Why are they coming to you?"},{"startTime":841.89,"endTime":845.4,"body":"He said so he says motivated"},{"startTime":841.89,"endTime":845.4,"body":"development teams are the scarcest"},{"startTime":845.4,"endTime":846.3,"body":"commodity in the universe."},{"startTime":846.43,"endTime":850.595,"body":"Well, like between that and and"},{"startTime":846.43,"endTime":850.595,"body":"saying Motivated development teams"},{"startTime":850.595,"endTime":854.815,"body":"are a completely renewable resource"},{"startTime":850.595,"endTime":854.815,"body":"or where are you in that scale?"},{"startTime":854.845,"endTime":854.965,"body":"I'll"},{"startTime":854.965,"endTime":856.695,"body":"tell you exactly where"},{"startTime":854.965,"endTime":856.695,"body":"he's coming from that."},{"startTime":856.695,"endTime":859.275,"body":"I believe he's coming from and then"},{"startTime":856.695,"endTime":859.275,"body":"i'll tell you where i'm coming from He's"},{"startTime":859.295,"endTime":864.685,"body":"saying motivated development teams are the"},{"startTime":859.295,"endTime":864.685,"body":"scarcest Resources meaning it's very hard"},{"startTime":864.685,"endTime":868.715,"body":"to find technical people that understand"},{"startTime":864.685,"endTime":868.715,"body":"the why behind what they're doing."},{"startTime":868.895,"endTime":870.085,"body":"Oh, okay I'm with you."},{"startTime":870.085,"endTime":870.775,"body":"That's what he's saying."},{"startTime":870.775,"endTime":872.815,"body":"I'm with you on that There are"},{"startTime":870.775,"endTime":872.815,"body":"a lot of technical people that"},{"startTime":872.815,"endTime":874.955,"body":"know how to do things, right?"},{"startTime":875.015,"endTime":879.115,"body":"They can give you 10 different ways"},{"startTime":875.015,"endTime":879.115,"body":"to do something but why yeah So that's"},{"startTime":879.115,"endTime":884.935,"body":"great, but that's where that first"},{"startTime":879.115,"endTime":884.935,"body":"point stops for me, where it leaves off"},{"startTime":884.935,"endTime":887.335,"body":"is like, what are we trying to solve?"},{"startTime":887.485,"endTime":887.795,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":887.815,"endTime":889.085,"body":"And that's where product comes in."},{"startTime":889.135,"endTime":890.455,"body":"You can do all of these things."},{"startTime":890.505,"endTime":892.945,"body":"You're come up with"},{"startTime":890.505,"endTime":892.945,"body":"the best toasters ever."},{"startTime":893.025,"endTime":893.355,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":893.385,"endTime":894.885,"body":"But is there a need for that?"},{"startTime":894.925,"endTime":898.195,"body":"Because your toaster takes eight"},{"startTime":894.925,"endTime":898.195,"body":"minutes to toast a slice of bread, man."},{"startTime":898.255,"endTime":899.135,"body":"I do love toast."},{"startTime":899.225,"endTime":899.735,"body":"I do."},{"startTime":899.795,"endTime":900.475,"body":"Toast is great."},{"startTime":900.645,"endTime":901.355,"body":"You know, so."},{"startTime":901.505,"endTime":906.355,"body":"Maybe there is no market for something"},{"startTime":901.505,"endTime":906.355,"body":"that takes 18 minutes to slice, you"},{"startTime":906.355,"endTime":909.685,"body":"know, a slice of toast that they can"},{"startTime":906.355,"endTime":909.685,"body":"make out of a, I don't know, whatever."},{"startTime":909.835,"endTime":912.715,"body":"You can put avocado on it"},{"startTime":909.835,"endTime":912.715,"body":"and it makes avocado toast."},{"startTime":912.815,"endTime":915.235,"body":"Now, you could say, oh,"},{"startTime":912.815,"endTime":915.235,"body":"there's added value there."},{"startTime":915.525,"endTime":918.995,"body":"So anyway, that's really what"},{"startTime":915.525,"endTime":918.995,"body":"I think he's arguing about."},{"startTime":919.235,"endTime":919.485,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":919.495,"endTime":921.865,"body":"But product and dev teams are not..."},{"startTime":922.015,"endTime":925.065,"body":"Two different sides of"},{"startTime":922.015,"endTime":925.065,"body":"two different coins."},{"startTime":925.375,"endTime":927.575,"body":"All right, let's move on to"},{"startTime":925.375,"endTime":927.575,"body":"the next part of his article."},{"startTime":927.625,"endTime":930.345,"body":"He says, imagine that we're I"},{"startTime":927.625,"endTime":930.345,"body":"don't know if this is going to be"},{"startTime":930.345,"endTime":932.695,"body":"relevant, but I'm going to read it"},{"startTime":930.345,"endTime":932.695,"body":"for the purposes of the podcast."},{"startTime":932.695,"endTime":933.865,"body":"And if I cut it out, then I cut it out."},{"startTime":934.165,"endTime":937.895,"body":"Imagine that we're at a medium"},{"startTime":934.165,"endTime":937.895,"body":"slash large e commerce company"},{"startTime":937.895,"endTime":941.135,"body":"with 90 plus developers and mission"},{"startTime":937.895,"endTime":941.135,"body":"critical backend infrastructure."},{"startTime":941.135,"endTime":942.625,"body":"There's a lot of hyphens in that sentence."},{"startTime":942.775,"endTime":945.575,"body":"We formed a dedicated infrastructure"},{"startTime":942.775,"endTime":945.575,"body":"development team to look."},{"startTime":946.565,"endTime":951.395,"body":"Buyer profiles, such as name, address,"},{"startTime":946.565,"endTime":951.395,"body":"PII, order history, payment information,"},{"startTime":951.395,"endTime":955.555,"body":"marketing preferences, and buyer"},{"startTime":951.395,"endTime":955.555,"body":"analytics, such as transaction logging."},{"startTime":955.585,"endTime":960.105,"body":"I almost said lodging, transact,"},{"startTime":955.585,"endTime":960.105,"body":"transaction, transaction, lodging."},{"startTime":960.255,"endTime":961.585,"body":"I don't know why that's so funny."},{"startTime":961.735,"endTime":965.395,"body":"Engagement stats, demographics, lifetime"},{"startTime":961.735,"endTime":965.395,"body":"value, campaign response rates, etc."},{"startTime":965.545,"endTime":968.735,"body":"The team's overall goal is to streamline"},{"startTime":965.545,"endTime":968.735,"body":"and centerize buyer information,"},{"startTime":968.915,"endTime":972.235,"body":"especially for scalability and consistent"},{"startTime":968.915,"endTime":972.235,"body":"reporting and privacy management."},{"startTime":972.245,"endTime":975.075,"body":"Our direct customers, I don't"},{"startTime":972.245,"endTime":975.075,"body":"know why that's in quotes, are"},{"startTime":975.095,"endTime":978.935,"body":"other product development groups"},{"startTime":975.095,"endTime":978.935,"body":"responsible for shopping carts,"},{"startTime":978.955,"endTime":980.165,"body":"order statuses, is statuses."},{"startTime":980.315,"endTime":981.005,"body":"Status?"},{"startTime":981.115,"endTime":981.875,"body":"Order status?"},{"startTime":981.965,"endTime":983.055,"body":"Shouldn't that be statuses?"},{"startTime":983.075,"endTime":983.535,"body":"It should be."},{"startTime":983.605,"endTime":987.425,"body":"Anyway, recommendation engines marketing"},{"startTime":983.605,"endTime":987.425,"body":"campaigns, and legal compliance."},{"startTime":987.455,"endTime":990.895,"body":"Inevitably, most of the"},{"startTime":987.455,"endTime":990.895,"body":"following will arise."},{"startTime":990.905,"endTime":992.685,"body":"Now, I'm not going to read"},{"startTime":990.905,"endTime":992.685,"body":"every single one of these."},{"startTime":992.785,"endTime":992.845,"body":"No, please."},{"startTime":992.955,"endTime":995.615,"body":"But he's saying, so we're an"},{"startTime":992.955,"endTime":995.615,"body":"infrastructure team taking care of"},{"startTime":995.625,"endTime":997.135,"body":"the back end of all this, all this."},{"startTime":997.135,"endTime":999.535,"body":"Which I would argue that some of"},{"startTime":997.135,"endTime":999.535,"body":"this is not really back end work."},{"startTime":999.535,"endTime":1001.345,"body":"However, I understand what he's saying."},{"startTime":1001.495,"endTime":1003.175,"body":"We're a back end platform team."},{"startTime":1003.325,"endTime":1006.465,"body":"We're just building the framework"},{"startTime":1003.325,"endTime":1006.465,"body":"that the other teams hook into."},{"startTime":1006.485,"endTime":1006.755,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1006.905,"endTime":1010.455,"body":"And he says some of the conflicts will"},{"startTime":1006.905,"endTime":1010.455,"body":"be Oh, some, I'm sorry, some, some"},{"startTime":1010.455,"endTime":1014.815,"body":"of the following will arise and those"},{"startTime":1010.455,"endTime":1014.815,"body":"are conflicts among internal consuming"},{"startTime":1014.815,"endTime":1018.685,"body":"groups about priorities, where the"},{"startTime":1014.815,"endTime":1018.685,"body":"infrastructure boundaries are, like who"},{"startTime":1018.685,"endTime":1022.195,"body":"makes rest services, you could all say"},{"startTime":1018.685,"endTime":1022.195,"body":"environment, stuff like that, right?"},{"startTime":1022.465,"endTime":1026.725,"body":"What are common end users slash"},{"startTime":1022.465,"endTime":1026.725,"body":"need, want, need slash want executive"},{"startTime":1026.745,"endTime":1029.865,"body":"interrupts, what executives think"},{"startTime":1026.745,"endTime":1029.865,"body":"are important alignment on broader"},{"startTime":1029.865,"endTime":1032.305,"body":"strategy, context and economic analysis."},{"startTime":1032.455,"endTime":1033.875,"body":"Supporting multi team initiatives."},{"startTime":1033.925,"endTime":1037.445,"body":"Let me start back from the top of"},{"startTime":1033.925,"endTime":1037.445,"body":"the list of what he says are problems"},{"startTime":1037.595,"endTime":1043.045,"body":"conflicts among internal consuming"},{"startTime":1037.595,"endTime":1043.045,"body":"groups, so if you're if you're providing"},{"startTime":1043.045,"endTime":1046.175,"body":"a platform to a Community of developers."},{"startTime":1046.325,"endTime":1050.895,"body":"Obviously that community of developers"},{"startTime":1046.325,"endTime":1050.895,"body":"will look at what they're doing from"},{"startTime":1050.895,"endTime":1054.805,"body":"your platform and demand different"},{"startTime":1050.895,"endTime":1054.805,"body":"things and all say they're priority one."},{"startTime":1054.805,"endTime":1057.275,"body":"So there's some stakeholder"},{"startTime":1054.805,"endTime":1057.275,"body":"management in here."},{"startTime":1057.425,"endTime":1061.445,"body":"I want to really move quickly over"},{"startTime":1057.425,"endTime":1061.445,"body":"this one because this is the basics."},{"startTime":1061.445,"endTime":1063.385,"body":"Like someone's got to do"},{"startTime":1061.445,"endTime":1063.385,"body":"stakeholder management."},{"startTime":1063.595,"endTime":1066.335,"body":"If you don't have a, the point of"},{"startTime":1063.595,"endTime":1066.335,"body":"his article is if you don't have a"},{"startTime":1066.335,"endTime":1069.945,"body":"product manager, now you're development"},{"startTime":1066.335,"endTime":1069.945,"body":"lead, development team, whatever."},{"startTime":1070.095,"endTime":1072.415,"body":"He's going to have to"},{"startTime":1070.095,"endTime":1072.415,"body":"sort of invent a system."},{"startTime":1072.565,"endTime":1075.725,"body":"So it comes, come up with"},{"startTime":1072.565,"endTime":1075.725,"body":"some kind of, democratized"},{"startTime":1075.735,"endTime":1078.465,"body":"process, ask who they work for."},{"startTime":1078.54,"endTime":1082.15,"body":"they're going to have a proxy for"},{"startTime":1078.54,"endTime":1082.15,"body":"a product manager and their normal"},{"startTime":1082.15,"endTime":1084.63,"body":"processes processes to do prioritization."},{"startTime":1084.64,"endTime":1086.46,"body":"That's what his first bullet points about."},{"startTime":1086.59,"endTime":1087.05,"body":"No doubt."},{"startTime":1087.11,"endTime":1087.4,"body":"And so"},{"startTime":1087.4,"endTime":1090.0,"body":"He's talking about internal"},{"startTime":1087.4,"endTime":1090.0,"body":"customers here, right?"},{"startTime":1090.15,"endTime":1090.8,"body":"That's what I see here."},{"startTime":1090.82,"endTime":1092.87,"body":"Internal customers, okay, fine."},{"startTime":1092.88,"endTime":1095.34,"body":"You're gonna have, and he says"},{"startTime":1092.88,"endTime":1095.34,"body":"that in his first bullet point."},{"startTime":1095.69,"endTime":1099.23,"body":"Conflicts among internal"},{"startTime":1095.69,"endTime":1099.23,"body":"consuming groups, right?"},{"startTime":1099.38,"endTime":1104.15,"body":"At the end of the day, who's paying"},{"startTime":1099.38,"endTime":1104.15,"body":"for your product, your outcomes?"},{"startTime":1104.16,"endTime":1105.1,"body":"Who's paying for that?"},{"startTime":1105.19,"endTime":1107.93,"body":"Is it internal people that are"},{"startTime":1105.19,"endTime":1107.93,"body":"just doing like, you know, cross"},{"startTime":1107.93,"endTime":1108.94,"body":"charges and all that stuff?"},{"startTime":1109.19,"endTime":1109.57,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1109.72,"endTime":1112.39,"body":"Or is it the actual end customer?"},{"startTime":1112.42,"endTime":1115.58,"body":"If it's the end customer, it doesn't"},{"startTime":1112.42,"endTime":1115.58,"body":"matter how many people it touches"},{"startTime":1115.6,"endTime":1117.22,"body":"before it gets to them, right?"},{"startTime":1117.55,"endTime":1119.17,"body":"So, decide that first."},{"startTime":1119.32,"endTime":1120.78,"body":"You know, and then move from there."},{"startTime":1121.11,"endTime":1123.32,"body":"So yeah, that first bullet for"},{"startTime":1121.11,"endTime":1123.32,"body":"me is pretty straightforward."},{"startTime":1123.63,"endTime":1125.41,"body":"Conflict among internal consuming groups."},{"startTime":1125.44,"endTime":1126.94,"body":"You could have 5, you could have 50."},{"startTime":1127.09,"endTime":1128.81,"body":"But who's paying for it?"},{"startTime":1128.96,"endTime":1129.23,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1129.38,"endTime":1129.8,"body":"let's move to the second one."},{"startTime":1129.95,"endTime":1133.73,"body":"So his second one is where is the"},{"startTime":1129.95,"endTime":1133.73,"body":"boundary of the infrastructure?"},{"startTime":1133.74,"endTime":1136.27,"body":"So what do you own and"},{"startTime":1133.74,"endTime":1136.27,"body":"what everyone else owns?"},{"startTime":1136.54,"endTime":1140.94,"body":"Like I was in I was in a program"},{"startTime":1136.54,"endTime":1140.94,"body":"one time where everybody contributed"},{"startTime":1141.03,"endTime":1143.71,"body":"API endpoints and boy, it was chaos."},{"startTime":1143.86,"endTime":1147.755,"body":"It was chaos because  API"},{"startTime":1143.86,"endTime":1147.755,"body":"endpoints themselves don't"},{"startTime":1147.765,"endTime":1149.085,"body":"talk to other API endpoints."},{"startTime":1149.105,"endTime":1151.485,"body":"You have to have services that"},{"startTime":1149.105,"endTime":1151.485,"body":"do that or programs that do that."},{"startTime":1151.815,"endTime":1157.245,"body":"But if you want to do something that"},{"startTime":1151.815,"endTime":1157.245,"body":"another API endpoint does already, but"},{"startTime":1157.245,"endTime":1158.815,"body":"you just want to extend it a little bit."},{"startTime":1158.965,"endTime":1162.915,"body":"Like are you allowed to do that"},{"startTime":1158.965,"endTime":1162.915,"body":"on somebody else's code, or should"},{"startTime":1162.915,"endTime":1165.405,"body":"you just go to that team and ask"},{"startTime":1162.915,"endTime":1165.405,"body":"for something on their road map?"},{"startTime":1165.625,"endTime":1168.865,"body":"Like, you know, I mean, there's"},{"startTime":1165.625,"endTime":1168.865,"body":"all kinds of the borders are very"},{"startTime":1168.865,"endTime":1173.885,"body":"murky in a, in a shared, basically a"},{"startTime":1168.865,"endTime":1173.885,"body":"shared back, one, one, one backlog."},{"startTime":1174.115,"endTime":1175.975,"body":"One product, multiple teams."},{"startTime":1176.265,"endTime":1180.405,"body":"That basically, if you can solve"},{"startTime":1176.265,"endTime":1180.405,"body":"multiple teams in one backlog,"},{"startTime":1180.555,"endTime":1183.305,"body":"you can solve this problem of"},{"startTime":1180.555,"endTime":1183.305,"body":"not knowing where the boundaries"},{"startTime":1183.305,"endTime":1183.545,"body":"are."},{"startTime":1183.625,"endTime":1185.895,"body":"I think the bottom line, I agree, right?"},{"startTime":1185.965,"endTime":1186.885,"body":"What you're just saying."},{"startTime":1187.195,"endTime":1190.985,"body":"The bottom line of all this is,"},{"startTime":1187.195,"endTime":1190.985,"body":"communicate with the other team"},{"startTime":1191.005,"endTime":1192.985,"body":"and say, here's what we're doing."},{"startTime":1193.135,"endTime":1195.435,"body":"So to the point about where's"},{"startTime":1193.135,"endTime":1195.435,"body":"the infrastructure boundary,"},{"startTime":1195.695,"endTime":1196.545,"body":"we're delivering this."},{"startTime":1196.695,"endTime":1197.425,"body":"What are you doing?"},{"startTime":1197.515,"endTime":1198.855,"body":"Oh, I see there's a gap here."},{"startTime":1199.005,"endTime":1201.485,"body":"Either you address it, we"},{"startTime":1199.005,"endTime":1201.485,"body":"address it, or we jointly address"},{"startTime":1201.555,"endTime":1201.755,"body":"it."},{"startTime":1201.855,"endTime":1204.915,"body":"You know, the other thing, I agree"},{"startTime":1201.855,"endTime":1204.915,"body":"with everything you're saying."},{"startTime":1205.105,"endTime":1210.005,"body":"But, I will tell you, not having"},{"startTime":1205.105,"endTime":1210.005,"body":"clear metrics makes this..."},{"startTime":1210.24,"endTime":1214.15,"body":"A lot murkier when you when you"},{"startTime":1210.24,"endTime":1214.15,"body":"don't and not not clear metrics."},{"startTime":1214.15,"endTime":1217.39,"body":"And also, the other thing I've dealt with"},{"startTime":1214.15,"endTime":1217.39,"body":"on teams on development teams I've been"},{"startTime":1217.39,"endTime":1221.91,"body":"part of is certain members of the team"},{"startTime":1217.39,"endTime":1221.91,"body":"have access to all the logs, metrics,"},{"startTime":1222.01,"endTime":1223.35,"body":"performance monitoring, stuff like that."},{"startTime":1223.35,"endTime":1224.67,"body":"And certain members do not."},{"startTime":1224.82,"endTime":1229.2,"body":"So it's very difficult to understand"},{"startTime":1224.82,"endTime":1229.2,"body":"where the delineation where"},{"startTime":1229.2,"endTime":1232.78,"body":"the edge of the system is when"},{"startTime":1229.2,"endTime":1232.78,"body":"you can't see in all the logs."},{"startTime":1232.78,"endTime":1234.77,"body":"I don't know why anyone would try to hide."},{"startTime":1234.855,"endTime":1239.165,"body":"The, the infrastructure from you, other"},{"startTime":1234.855,"endTime":1239.165,"body":"than the fact of like, maybe they're"},{"startTime":1239.165,"endTime":1241.295,"body":"playing some games with, yeah, right."},{"startTime":1241.295,"endTime":1243.075,"body":"They're trying to hide"},{"startTime":1241.295,"endTime":1243.075,"body":"some stuff on purpose."},{"startTime":1243.125,"endTime":1243.365,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1243.515,"endTime":1246.145,"body":"So there's two, two parts of the"},{"startTime":1243.515,"endTime":1246.145,"body":"play in the game space, right?"},{"startTime":1246.195,"endTime":1247.375,"body":"One is pride."},{"startTime":1247.645,"endTime":1248.265,"body":"This is what we did."},{"startTime":1248.305,"endTime":1249.465,"body":"It's our, sure, sure, sure."},{"startTime":1249.785,"endTime":1250.505,"body":"Get out of here."},{"startTime":1250.575,"endTime":1250.845,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1250.885,"endTime":1252.525,"body":"And then the other part is, oh."},{"startTime":1252.72,"endTime":1258.51,"body":"So, okay, if we reveal, sorry, if we"},{"startTime":1252.72,"endTime":1258.51,"body":"reveal what we're doing, right, then"},{"startTime":1258.55,"endTime":1262.74,"body":"it's going to reveal our vulnerabilities"},{"startTime":1258.55,"endTime":1262.74,"body":"and we don't want to do that, right?"},{"startTime":1262.75,"endTime":1264.55,"body":"So that's the, that's the"},{"startTime":1264.6,"endTime":1264.97,"body":"been there."},{"startTime":1264.97,"endTime":1265.59,"body":"Shame game."},{"startTime":1265.61,"endTime":1265.73,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1265.75,"endTime":1266.36,"body":"Been there, done that."},{"startTime":1266.36,"endTime":1266.97,"body":"It's like, Oh, I"},{"startTime":1266.99,"endTime":1268.65,"body":"will be ashamed if we just,"},{"startTime":1268.8,"endTime":1270.78,"body":"so all of this, nothing's going to improve"},{"startTime":1270.93,"endTime":1270.98,"body":"in that."},{"startTime":1270.98,"endTime":1271.64,"body":"Nothing is going to improve."},{"startTime":1271.79,"endTime":1275.06,"body":"This is where the us and"},{"startTime":1271.79,"endTime":1275.06,"body":"them ism kicks in, right?"},{"startTime":1275.08,"endTime":1276.25,"body":"So be, be aware"},{"startTime":1276.26,"endTime":1276.31,"body":"of that."},{"startTime":1276.46,"endTime":1281.61,"body":"So his, his next category in here is"},{"startTime":1276.46,"endTime":1281.61,"body":"what, what our common end users need"},{"startTime":1281.62,"endTime":1286.54,"body":"slash want versus how each application"},{"startTime":1281.62,"endTime":1286.54,"body":"team interprets their users needs."},{"startTime":1286.69,"endTime":1291.41,"body":"So an example he gives is the shopping"},{"startTime":1286.69,"endTime":1291.41,"body":"cart team wants fewer number of required"},{"startTime":1291.41,"endTime":1295.41,"body":"fields for payment to lead to faster"},{"startTime":1291.41,"endTime":1295.41,"body":"checkout, while the recommendation"},{"startTime":1295.41,"endTime":1297.88,"body":"team wants multiple payment options."},{"startTime":1298.03,"endTime":1300.33,"body":"Per purchase this is kind of"},{"startTime":1300.48,"endTime":1304.04,"body":"a, I see this as a weakness in the"},{"startTime":1300.48,"endTime":1304.04,"body":"product side of the organization."},{"startTime":1304.05,"endTime":1304.23,"body":"He"},{"startTime":1304.23,"endTime":1307.71,"body":"even, he even says, he even says"},{"startTime":1304.23,"endTime":1307.71,"body":"at the end of this, he, politics"},{"startTime":1307.75,"endTime":1309.52,"body":"as architecture points out."},{"startTime":1309.52,"endTime":1309.84,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1309.99,"endTime":1313.74,"body":"that's really doesn't, architecture"},{"startTime":1309.99,"endTime":1313.74,"body":"is the tail wagging the"},{"startTime":1313.74,"endTime":1315.24,"body":"politics at the end of the day."},{"startTime":1315.29,"endTime":1315.89,"body":"I also don't think"},{"startTime":1315.89,"endTime":1316.79,"body":"of this as a platform."},{"startTime":1316.8,"endTime":1317.71,"body":"I don't think this is flat."},{"startTime":1317.79,"endTime":1321.44,"body":"Like I think a platform like platform"},{"startTime":1317.79,"endTime":1321.44,"body":"team, like the title of the article"},{"startTime":1321.44,"endTime":1322.42,"body":"here that we're talking about."},{"startTime":1322.57,"endTime":1325.21,"body":"Is, do infrastructure teams"},{"startTime":1322.57,"endTime":1325.21,"body":"need product management?"},{"startTime":1325.335,"endTime":1329.385,"body":"I don't think of, oh, I need more items"},{"startTime":1325.335,"endTime":1329.385,"body":"in my cart, or I need my cart to handle"},{"startTime":1329.385,"endTime":1330.945,"body":"this, or I need a fast checkout button."},{"startTime":1330.945,"endTime":1333.615,"body":"I don't think that this is infa"},{"startTime":1330.945,"endTime":1333.615,"body":"the infrastructure of the website,"},{"startTime":1333.735,"endTime":1335.085,"body":"I think slivers, slivers"},{"startTime":1335.085,"endTime":1335.505,"body":"of value."},{"startTime":1335.505,"endTime":1335.595,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1335.655,"endTime":1338.535,"body":"I think that this is like, there should"},{"startTime":1335.655,"endTime":1338.535,"body":"be a team developing this kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1338.535,"endTime":1338.685,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1338.69,"endTime":1339.195,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1339.315,"endTime":1339.555,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1339.615,"endTime":1343.225,"body":"So may like, maybe this is not a great"},{"startTime":1339.615,"endTime":1343.225,"body":"example, but the, the point the, I think"},{"startTime":1343.225,"endTime":1348.265,"body":"the point of this item is, If what I"},{"startTime":1343.225,"endTime":1348.265,"body":"think would be a good one, like an NFR"},{"startTime":1348.395,"endTime":1352.605,"body":"that could be a good example of this"},{"startTime":1348.395,"endTime":1352.605,"body":"is when I hit the checkout button after"},{"startTime":1352.605,"endTime":1356.175,"body":"everything's been purchased, I don't"},{"startTime":1352.605,"endTime":1356.175,"body":"want the spinner to spin for five seconds"},{"startTime":1356.425,"endTime":1360.065,"body":"right now we've timed it in production"},{"startTime":1356.425,"endTime":1360.065,"body":"and we know it spins for five seconds."},{"startTime":1360.415,"endTime":1362.185,"body":"I want that button to be nearly instant."},{"startTime":1362.47,"endTime":1363.13,"body":"I want the button."},{"startTime":1363.13,"endTime":1364.41,"body":"I don't want there to be any spin time."},{"startTime":1364.57,"endTime":1367.81,"body":"Maybe a half a second is appropriate"},{"startTime":1364.57,"endTime":1367.81,"body":"a spin time and that's it."},{"startTime":1368.07,"endTime":1373.0,"body":"And now go to my platform team saying"},{"startTime":1368.07,"endTime":1373.0,"body":"your platform processing is too slow."},{"startTime":1373.23,"endTime":1377.71,"body":"You need to drop everything you're doing"},{"startTime":1373.23,"endTime":1377.71,"body":"and make this the highest priority in your"},{"startTime":1377.71,"endTime":1380.1,"body":"platform of making the processing faster."},{"startTime":1380.27,"endTime":1383.85,"body":"And then you might take that as an"},{"startTime":1380.27,"endTime":1383.85,"body":"infrastructure team and say, well, well,"},{"startTime":1383.85,"endTime":1386.73,"body":"we integrate with these other vendors"},{"startTime":1383.85,"endTime":1386.73,"body":"and we're processing your payment."},{"startTime":1386.73,"endTime":1387.85,"body":"We're doing all this in one step."},{"startTime":1387.85,"endTime":1390.55,"body":"And yes, we could split it up,"},{"startTime":1387.85,"endTime":1390.55,"body":"but then we have to push things."},{"startTime":1390.675,"endTime":1393.975,"body":"All onto everybody else's"},{"startTime":1390.675,"endTime":1393.975,"body":"roadmap to help us refactor."},{"startTime":1394.175,"endTime":1396.215,"body":"And it's a huge to refactor."},{"startTime":1396.215,"endTime":1397.965,"body":"I've, I did this in the"},{"startTime":1396.215,"endTime":1397.965,"body":"world of mobile apps."},{"startTime":1398.145,"endTime":1402.835,"body":"It's huge to try to get that number"},{"startTime":1398.145,"endTime":1402.835,"body":"down from three seconds to one second."},{"startTime":1402.865,"endTime":1404.825,"body":"It seems trivial, massive, but it"},{"startTime":1405.025,"endTime":1405.725,"body":"ends up being massive."},{"startTime":1405.735,"endTime":1406.155,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1406.305,"endTime":1410.075,"body":"So from 20 to three seconds is easier"},{"startTime":1406.305,"endTime":1410.075,"body":"than three to one second, right?"},{"startTime":1410.075,"endTime":1410.225,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1410.225,"endTime":1410.815,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1410.815,"endTime":1411.775,"body":"Yeah, I can agree with that."},{"startTime":1411.775,"endTime":1411.915,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1412.065,"endTime":1414.745,"body":"So one of the things that I know he"},{"startTime":1412.065,"endTime":1414.745,"body":"ends with, you know, the smells is"},{"startTime":1414.745,"endTime":1416.585,"body":"almost like a politics as architecture."},{"startTime":1416.585,"endTime":1420.405,"body":"One of the things that I think we have"},{"startTime":1416.585,"endTime":1420.405,"body":"to really kind of bear in mind here"},{"startTime":1420.495,"endTime":1425.705,"body":"is but I, I agree with he said he, he,"},{"startTime":1420.495,"endTime":1425.705,"body":"where he says it smells like politics."},{"startTime":1425.855,"endTime":1426.895,"body":"over architecture."},{"startTime":1427.045,"endTime":1428.095,"body":"I do agree with that."},{"startTime":1428.245,"endTime":1433.125,"body":"But what's the difference between"},{"startTime":1428.245,"endTime":1433.125,"body":"some VP saying this process takes too"},{"startTime":1433.125,"endTime":1438.015,"body":"long and you, you doing a poll and the"},{"startTime":1433.125,"endTime":1438.015,"body":"majority of your users coming back and"},{"startTime":1438.015,"endTime":1439.525,"body":"saying this process takes too long."},{"startTime":1439.675,"endTime":1444.235,"body":"Like sometimes, sometimes, especially"},{"startTime":1439.675,"endTime":1444.235,"body":"with A to B tests, like a, a B tests."},{"startTime":1444.245,"endTime":1447.625,"body":"Sometimes I think like I don't"},{"startTime":1444.245,"endTime":1447.625,"body":"necessarily need to run a test."},{"startTime":1447.775,"endTime":1452.985,"body":"If my product intuition is already telling"},{"startTime":1447.775,"endTime":1452.985,"body":"me there's a problem and I can investigate"},{"startTime":1452.995,"endTime":1457.045,"body":"metrics to see that the majority of users"},{"startTime":1452.995,"endTime":1457.045,"body":"between the time they click that button"},{"startTime":1457.295,"endTime":1460.455,"body":"and between the time that the transaction"},{"startTime":1457.295,"endTime":1460.455,"body":"says successful in the database."},{"startTime":1460.605,"endTime":1463.085,"body":"There is, is a three to five second gap."},{"startTime":1463.365,"endTime":1467.245,"body":"So, I can use those metrics just"},{"startTime":1463.365,"endTime":1467.245,"body":"to say, generally, users have"},{"startTime":1467.245,"endTime":1468.875,"body":"to wait three to five seconds."},{"startTime":1468.95,"endTime":1472.42,"body":"And, is three to five seconds"},{"startTime":1468.95,"endTime":1472.42,"body":"too much for a general user?"},{"startTime":1472.6,"endTime":1474.91,"body":"Now I've got a good question I"},{"startTime":1472.6,"endTime":1474.91,"body":"can go investigate, and I can"},{"startTime":1474.91,"endTime":1476.43,"body":"survey, and I can do some tests."},{"startTime":1476.58,"endTime":1477.25,"body":"That is true."},{"startTime":1477.45,"endTime":1480.25,"body":"However, if we have other things"},{"startTime":1477.45,"endTime":1480.25,"body":"that we're trying to do that,"},{"startTime":1480.34,"endTime":1482.04,"body":"that are based on processing time."},{"startTime":1482.09,"endTime":1484.81,"body":"For this example, it's, is it politics?"},{"startTime":1484.97,"endTime":1485.7,"body":"Maybe it is."},{"startTime":1485.76,"endTime":1489.93,"body":"Maybe it's completely legitimate"},{"startTime":1485.76,"endTime":1489.93,"body":"to say, Brian, it's just politics."},{"startTime":1490.08,"endTime":1493.01,"body":"So many executives, so many different"},{"startTime":1490.08,"endTime":1493.01,"body":"departments, so many different teams"},{"startTime":1493.01,"endTime":1495.66,"body":"are saying They perceive a problem."},{"startTime":1495.81,"endTime":1499.2,"body":"So you must fix a problem"},{"startTime":1495.81,"endTime":1499.2,"body":"because of the perception."},{"startTime":1499.34,"endTime":1503.29,"body":"Listen, that might be true that it"},{"startTime":1499.34,"endTime":1503.29,"body":"is politics that led us to this fix."},{"startTime":1503.53,"endTime":1507.54,"body":"That doesn't mean, I'm about to say"},{"startTime":1503.53,"endTime":1507.54,"body":"something I don't believe in my technical"},{"startTime":1507.54,"endTime":1510.745,"body":"heart of hearts, but I certainly"},{"startTime":1507.54,"endTime":1510.745,"body":"believe in my product management, heart"},{"startTime":1510.745,"endTime":1514.445,"body":"of hearts, the perception becoming"},{"startTime":1510.745,"endTime":1514.445,"body":"reality and forcing you to fix it."},{"startTime":1514.655,"endTime":1516.155,"body":"That is a real problem."},{"startTime":1516.155,"endTime":1519.995,"body":"At that point, once your perception"},{"startTime":1516.155,"endTime":1519.995,"body":"sets into reality, politics aside, it"},{"startTime":1519.995,"endTime":1521.325,"body":"doesn't matter if it's policies or not."},{"startTime":1521.365,"endTime":1522.335,"body":"Now you have to fix it."},{"startTime":1522.485,"endTime":1523.215,"body":"A hundred percent."},{"startTime":1523.265,"endTime":1523.475,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1523.475,"endTime":1527.395,"body":"So maybe more so customers"},{"startTime":1523.475,"endTime":1527.395,"body":"vote with, yeah, it could be"},{"startTime":1527.395,"endTime":1530.135,"body":"more, it could be thousands of"},{"startTime":1527.395,"endTime":1530.135,"body":"customers vote with their dollars."},{"startTime":1530.47,"endTime":1535.59,"body":", engage a subset of your customers,"},{"startTime":1530.47,"endTime":1535.59,"body":"you know how to pick the ones that"},{"startTime":1535.59,"endTime":1538.42,"body":"you want as a pilot group, right?"},{"startTime":1538.74,"endTime":1543.03,"body":"And then get them, not only just at the"},{"startTime":1538.74,"endTime":1543.03,"body":"end of it saying, well, here's what we"},{"startTime":1543.25,"endTime":1545.2,"body":"delivered and go test this stuff out."},{"startTime":1545.38,"endTime":1545.58,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1545.73,"endTime":1548.73,"body":"Get them in ahead of time and"},{"startTime":1545.73,"endTime":1548.73,"body":"say we're planning this Right."},{"startTime":1548.74,"endTime":1550.21,"body":"Here's what we're planning to achieve."},{"startTime":1550.43,"endTime":1554.04,"body":"These are the slas slrs, whatever"},{"startTime":1550.43,"endTime":1554.04,"body":"that we're planning to meet."},{"startTime":1554.13,"endTime":1555.48,"body":"Yeah, are they good enough for you?"},{"startTime":1555.63,"endTime":1556.07,"body":"Guess what?"},{"startTime":1556.07,"endTime":1557.3,"body":"If they're not, they'll tell you."},{"startTime":1557.45,"endTime":1558.95,"body":"You could survey your customers."},{"startTime":1558.96,"endTime":1560.86,"body":"You could add, you could"},{"startTime":1558.96,"endTime":1560.86,"body":"do something in app."},{"startTime":1560.92,"endTime":1562.05,"body":"You could do something in app."},{"startTime":1562.32,"endTime":1567.91,"body":"In the scenario I just described, which"},{"startTime":1562.32,"endTime":1567.91,"body":"was a place that I actually worked, you"},{"startTime":1567.93,"endTime":1572.68,"body":"could tell the time between the, the, in"},{"startTime":1567.93,"endTime":1572.68,"body":"the mobile app, the submission of the, the"},{"startTime":1572.68,"endTime":1576.0,"body":"submission of the thing and the processing"},{"startTime":1572.68,"endTime":1576.0,"body":"of the thing, of the transaction."},{"startTime":1576.22,"endTime":1577.07,"body":"You could tell the difference."},{"startTime":1577.08,"endTime":1580.36,"body":"So you could pull in SQL"},{"startTime":1577.08,"endTime":1580.36,"body":"every single transaction."},{"startTime":1580.51,"endTime":1581.42,"body":"So you can see outliers."},{"startTime":1581.43,"endTime":1583.46,"body":"You could throw out, if you"},{"startTime":1581.43,"endTime":1583.46,"body":"saw like one transaction took."},{"startTime":1583.61,"endTime":1584.21,"body":"Three minutes."},{"startTime":1584.21,"endTime":1586.23,"body":"You can be like, Oh,"},{"startTime":1584.21,"endTime":1586.23,"body":"something really wrong."},{"startTime":1586.23,"endTime":1587.0,"body":"What happened there?"},{"startTime":1587.04,"endTime":1588.94,"body":"Connections stopped"},{"startTime":1587.04,"endTime":1588.94,"body":"and they reestablished."},{"startTime":1588.94,"endTime":1589.23,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1589.38,"endTime":1591.19,"body":"Maybe they went out of"},{"startTime":1589.38,"endTime":1591.19,"body":"wifi and came back in."},{"startTime":1591.35,"endTime":1592.35,"body":"Let me throw that out."},{"startTime":1592.38,"endTime":1593.27,"body":"Let me throw that out."},{"startTime":1593.27,"endTime":1596.35,"body":"So you can throw out outliers so that"},{"startTime":1593.27,"endTime":1596.35,"body":"you can do some stuff in the metrics."},{"startTime":1596.65,"endTime":1600.78,"body":"However you should be able to"},{"startTime":1596.65,"endTime":1600.78,"body":"get real data on this before"},{"startTime":1600.78,"endTime":1602.34,"body":"you let politics politics aside."},{"startTime":1602.39,"endTime":1603.62,"body":"You might have to respond to politics."},{"startTime":1603.77,"endTime":1605.9,"body":"This might take away from"},{"startTime":1603.77,"endTime":1605.9,"body":"the from this discussion."},{"startTime":1606.05,"endTime":1608.49,"body":"Before we move in because again,"},{"startTime":1606.05,"endTime":1608.49,"body":"we've dwelled in this too long."},{"startTime":1608.56,"endTime":1608.81,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1608.96,"endTime":1612.02,"body":"Politics will become a real"},{"startTime":1608.96,"endTime":1612.02,"body":"thing And force you, and force"},{"startTime":1612.02,"endTime":1613.4,"body":"your hand in prioritization."},{"startTime":1613.68,"endTime":1614.73,"body":"That is 100 percent true."},{"startTime":1614.91,"endTime":1615.91,"body":"No problem with that."},{"startTime":1615.92,"endTime":1617.89,"body":"You really shouldn't be"},{"startTime":1615.92,"endTime":1617.89,"body":"too aggravated with that."},{"startTime":1618.04,"endTime":1619.94,"body":"That just means you couldn't"},{"startTime":1618.04,"endTime":1619.94,"body":"get ahead of it fast enough."},{"startTime":1620.0,"endTime":1620.46,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1620.58,"endTime":1622.2,"body":"And expect that it's gonna happen."},{"startTime":1622.55,"endTime":1623.75,"body":"Don't be surprised when it happens."},{"startTime":1623.9,"endTime":1624.35,"body":"Because it's a"},{"startTime":1624.36,"endTime":1624.83,"body":"given."},{"startTime":1625.11,"endTime":1628.63,"body":"But that does not, that is"},{"startTime":1625.11,"endTime":1628.63,"body":"not an excuse to not also walk"},{"startTime":1628.63,"endTime":1631.11,"body":"through the normal process of"},{"startTime":1628.63,"endTime":1631.11,"body":"having your metrics on the issue."},{"startTime":1631.26,"endTime":1631.96,"body":"Get your metrics."},{"startTime":1631.97,"endTime":1636.53,"body":"If you, if you don't have in app metrics,"},{"startTime":1631.97,"endTime":1636.53,"body":"ask your developers, prioritize it,"},{"startTime":1636.7,"endTime":1638.6,"body":"get the metrics, let them help you."},{"startTime":1638.75,"endTime":1640.89,"body":"It'd be better if you can pull them"},{"startTime":1638.75,"endTime":1640.89,"body":"yourself, obviously, then you don't"},{"startTime":1640.89,"endTime":1641.94,"body":"have to impact the development team."},{"startTime":1642.09,"endTime":1644.77,"body":"But that that's, I feel you"},{"startTime":1642.09,"endTime":1644.77,"body":"can get ahead of this one."},{"startTime":1644.85,"endTime":1646.43,"body":"If you've got some metrics"},{"startTime":1644.85,"endTime":1646.43,"body":"on your side, all right."},{"startTime":1646.68,"endTime":1647.59,"body":"Executive interrupts."},{"startTime":1647.74,"endTime":1650.51,"body":"Quite honestly, Executive Interrupts"},{"startTime":1647.74,"endTime":1650.51,"body":"kind of goes along with the previous"},{"startTime":1650.51,"endTime":1651.54,"body":"one that we kind of talked about."},{"startTime":1651.69,"endTime":1655.77,"body":"But also, but also, Executive Interrupts"},{"startTime":1651.69,"endTime":1655.77,"body":"is also the the sales coming to you."},{"startTime":1655.79,"endTime":1658.59,"body":"Be like, hey, we, this customer"},{"startTime":1655.79,"endTime":1658.59,"body":"is going to renew if we just"},{"startTime":1658.6,"endTime":1659.69,"body":"add this one new feature."},{"startTime":1659.69,"endTime":1661.8,"body":"Or this customer will sign"},{"startTime":1659.69,"endTime":1661.8,"body":"the contract if we add this."},{"startTime":1661.99,"endTime":1662.69,"body":"That's this too."},{"startTime":1662.69,"endTime":1665.55,"body":"He says, what if we use machine"},{"startTime":1662.69,"endTime":1665.55,"body":"learning to suggest payment"},{"startTime":1665.55,"endTime":1667.13,"body":"methods based on ship to address?"},{"startTime":1667.28,"endTime":1667.52,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1667.75,"endTime":1671.13,"body":"I mean, that's a, it's very meta,"},{"startTime":1667.75,"endTime":1671.13,"body":"like I would, I'd be amazed if an"},{"startTime":1671.13,"endTime":1673.57,"body":"executive actually came to me and"},{"startTime":1671.13,"endTime":1673.57,"body":"said, well, but you know, here's the"},{"startTime":1673.58,"endTime":1676.27,"body":"reality of what an executive come to"},{"startTime":1673.58,"endTime":1676.27,"body":"you with this executive interrupt."},{"startTime":1676.58,"endTime":1679.06,"body":"Well, every other competitor"},{"startTime":1676.58,"endTime":1679.06,"body":"has AI in their solutions."},{"startTime":1679.06,"endTime":1680.16,"body":"How come we aren't doing anything with AI?"},{"startTime":1681.28,"endTime":1683.93,"body":"Or the other side of it, which"},{"startTime":1681.28,"endTime":1683.93,"body":"I like to call ego stroking."},{"startTime":1684.08,"endTime":1688.8,"body":"They will come to your tech lead and"},{"startTime":1684.08,"endTime":1688.8,"body":"say, Hey, awesome job the last 15"},{"startTime":1688.8,"endTime":1689.96,"body":"sprints or whatever it is, right?"},{"startTime":1690.31,"endTime":1692.11,"body":"To your point, our"},{"startTime":1690.31,"endTime":1692.11,"body":"competitors are doing this."},{"startTime":1692.14,"endTime":1693.71,"body":"I know you guys can do better."},{"startTime":1693.72,"endTime":1695.54,"body":"I know you have it in you."},{"startTime":1695.54,"endTime":1697.14,"body":"You guys are so smart, right?"},{"startTime":1697.14,"endTime":1698.78,"body":"You can do this in two sprints."},{"startTime":1698.78,"endTime":1699.96,"body":"I know you can, right?"},{"startTime":1700.11,"endTime":1700.71,"body":"Make it happen."},{"startTime":1700.99,"endTime":1701.85,"body":"And then they walk away."},{"startTime":1701.99,"endTime":1702.4,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":1702.4,"endTime":1702.6,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1702.6,"endTime":1702.87,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1703.02,"endTime":1707.19,"body":"I have seen this personally, believe"},{"startTime":1703.02,"endTime":1707.19,"body":"it or not way too often, right?"},{"startTime":1707.46,"endTime":1712.13,"body":"That this is when good tech leads come"},{"startTime":1707.46,"endTime":1712.13,"body":"to you and say, What just happened here?"},{"startTime":1712.28,"endTime":1714.6,"body":"A whole world got changed, right?"},{"startTime":1714.75,"endTime":1717.62,"body":"Bad tech leads on your end go, yes, sir."},{"startTime":1717.63,"endTime":1719.68,"body":"Would you be wanting to shine your shoes?"},{"startTime":1719.83,"endTime":1722.57,"body":"Well, they can't, I mean, honestly,"},{"startTime":1719.83,"endTime":1722.57,"body":"they, they, they can't help"},{"startTime":1722.57,"endTime":1725.09,"body":"themselves because that's, they feel"},{"startTime":1722.57,"endTime":1725.09,"body":"that's the way that they got there."},{"startTime":1725.09,"endTime":1727.24,"body":"So they're not going to, you know,"},{"startTime":1725.09,"endTime":1727.24,"body":"they're not going to go against the"},{"startTime":1727.24,"endTime":1731.385,"body":"company, but , I remember at a company"},{"startTime":1727.24,"endTime":1731.385,"body":"I was at one time pointing out."},{"startTime":1731.535,"endTime":1733.975,"body":"The dips and spikes in velocity."},{"startTime":1734.125,"endTime":1737.545,"body":"And I had been with the company"},{"startTime":1734.125,"endTime":1737.545,"body":"for long enough to track the"},{"startTime":1737.545,"endTime":1739.175,"body":"major things that happened."},{"startTime":1739.205,"endTime":1741.545,"body":"I was a product manager at the company."},{"startTime":1741.885,"endTime":1742.865,"body":"I was not a scrum master."},{"startTime":1743.015,"endTime":1744.175,"body":"It was a product manager at the company."},{"startTime":1744.325,"endTime":1744.635,"body":"And."},{"startTime":1744.785,"endTime":1747.675,"body":"Each sprint, I wrote down what"},{"startTime":1744.785,"endTime":1747.675,"body":"the sprint goal was whether the"},{"startTime":1747.675,"endTime":1751.205,"body":"company or whether the team did or"},{"startTime":1747.675,"endTime":1751.205,"body":"did not accomplish the sprint goal."},{"startTime":1751.355,"endTime":1754.755,"body":"And also I wrote down major"},{"startTime":1751.355,"endTime":1754.755,"body":"things that were happening in"},{"startTime":1754.755,"endTime":1756.995,"body":"the company during the sprint."},{"startTime":1757.145,"endTime":1760.195,"body":"So I wrote down like, oh, you"},{"startTime":1757.145,"endTime":1760.195,"body":"know, this customer complained"},{"startTime":1760.195,"endTime":1763.605,"body":"a lot or this executive was"},{"startTime":1760.195,"endTime":1763.605,"body":"demanding this feature or whatever."},{"startTime":1763.605,"endTime":1765.845,"body":"It was almost like things that"},{"startTime":1763.605,"endTime":1765.845,"body":"we were doing, things that were"},{"startTime":1765.845,"endTime":1767.595,"body":"taking a lot of refinement time."},{"startTime":1767.745,"endTime":1771.095,"body":"While the sprint was also going on, it"},{"startTime":1767.745,"endTime":1771.095,"body":"was like notes of what was happening"},{"startTime":1771.095,"endTime":1772.095,"body":"in the environment during the sprint."},{"startTime":1772.305,"endTime":1776.255,"body":"And I remember showing it to the CEO one"},{"startTime":1772.305,"endTime":1776.255,"body":"time when we did a program retrospective."},{"startTime":1776.305,"endTime":1777.225,"body":"Because the company wasn't that big."},{"startTime":1777.375,"endTime":1781.255,"body":"We did a program retrospective"},{"startTime":1777.375,"endTime":1781.255,"body":"with the senior leadership team."},{"startTime":1781.405,"endTime":1783.465,"body":"And reps from the development teams."},{"startTime":1783.515,"endTime":1786.595,"body":"So it was like a, you know, leadership"},{"startTime":1783.515,"endTime":1786.595,"body":"plus development retrospective."},{"startTime":1786.745,"endTime":1790.395,"body":"And one of the things I pointed out in"},{"startTime":1786.745,"endTime":1790.395,"body":"the retrospective was I said this is"},{"startTime":1790.405,"endTime":1795.165,"body":"these, I have notes of where you guys"},{"startTime":1790.405,"endTime":1795.165,"body":"have pushed the team in the last quarter."},{"startTime":1795.315,"endTime":1798.465,"body":"And it was funny because when they"},{"startTime":1795.315,"endTime":1798.465,"body":"pushed the team, the velocity went up"},{"startTime":1798.615,"endTime":1802.685,"body":"and the velocity going up, like there"},{"startTime":1798.615,"endTime":1802.685,"body":"was no, what the team was doing was"},{"startTime":1802.685,"endTime":1805.455,"body":"working extra hours and working nights"},{"startTime":1802.685,"endTime":1805.455,"body":"and weekends, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1805.605,"endTime":1809.535,"body":"Cause we had also had access to the"},{"startTime":1805.605,"endTime":1809.535,"body":"system where the team logged their hours."},{"startTime":1809.555,"endTime":1809.825,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1809.915,"endTime":1810.135,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1810.285,"endTime":1813.255,"body":"So we had full transparency in that"},{"startTime":1810.285,"endTime":1813.255,"body":"team, which is actually good because I"},{"startTime":1813.255,"endTime":1816.925,"body":"could show them the velocity went up,"},{"startTime":1813.255,"endTime":1816.925,"body":"not because the team was over inflating,"},{"startTime":1817.065,"endTime":1820.815,"body":"but because the team was working"},{"startTime":1817.065,"endTime":1820.815,"body":"60 hours instead of 42 or whatever."},{"startTime":1820.815,"endTime":1821.425,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1821.525,"endTime":1823.885,"body":"And I showed them this is where you."},{"startTime":1824.135,"endTime":1826.745,"body":"Push the team and this is where"},{"startTime":1824.135,"endTime":1826.745,"body":"they delivered and this is the next"},{"startTime":1826.745,"endTime":1830.975,"body":"sprint and because there was, there"},{"startTime":1826.745,"endTime":1830.975,"body":"was dips and spikes in the velocity."},{"startTime":1831.005,"endTime":1831.575,"body":"Always, right?"},{"startTime":1831.575,"endTime":1832.145,"body":"Dips and spikes."},{"startTime":1832.255,"endTime":1837.545,"body":"And what would happen is the, the, the"},{"startTime":1832.255,"endTime":1837.545,"body":"dips would immediately follow the spikes."},{"startTime":1837.735,"endTime":1842.375,"body":"And I told the executives, I said you"},{"startTime":1837.735,"endTime":1842.375,"body":"understand following this data we're"},{"startTime":1842.375,"endTime":1844.495,"body":"like correlation is not causation."},{"startTime":1844.495,"endTime":1845.115,"body":"Is that the thing?"},{"startTime":1845.115,"endTime":1846.315,"body":"Correlation is not causation?"},{"startTime":1846.315,"endTime":1847.485,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1847.665,"endTime":1849.035,"body":"I was like, except in this case."},{"startTime":1849.185,"endTime":1850.555,"body":"It completely is."},{"startTime":1850.555,"endTime":1855.385,"body":"I was like, this is where you push the"},{"startTime":1850.555,"endTime":1855.385,"body":"team and they worked extra and this next"},{"startTime":1855.385,"endTime":1859.715,"body":"sprint after that when the deadline was"},{"startTime":1855.385,"endTime":1859.715,"body":"over is where they all were burnt out"},{"startTime":1859.825,"endTime":1864.815,"body":"and had to pull it back to return to"},{"startTime":1859.825,"endTime":1864.815,"body":"their baseline and these next two sprints"},{"startTime":1864.825,"endTime":1868.285,"body":"after that was the baseline where if"},{"startTime":1864.825,"endTime":1868.285,"body":"you actually want to know how long it's"},{"startTime":1868.295,"endTime":1869.695,"body":"going to take, that's what you should do."},{"startTime":1869.875,"endTime":1874.525,"body":"So I was like, you should either start"},{"startTime":1869.875,"endTime":1874.525,"body":"understanding how baselines work."},{"startTime":1874.555,"endTime":1874.575,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1874.81,"endTime":1878.38,"body":"And start planning to the baseline, so"},{"startTime":1874.81,"endTime":1878.38,"body":"when you know something big is coming"},{"startTime":1878.38,"endTime":1881.59,"body":"up, bring it up two, three sprints"},{"startTime":1878.38,"endTime":1881.59,"body":"ahead of time, so the team can start"},{"startTime":1881.59,"endTime":1885.74,"body":"baking it into the work and deliver it,"},{"startTime":1881.59,"endTime":1885.74,"body":"rather than stressing the team out and"},{"startTime":1885.74,"endTime":1889.05,"body":"then having to suffer for a sprint and"},{"startTime":1885.74,"endTime":1889.05,"body":"a half after that, while your velocity"},{"startTime":1889.05,"endTime":1892.045,"body":"dips because you just burned your"},{"startTime":1889.05,"endTime":1892.045,"body":"whole team, this executive interrupt"},{"startTime":1892.085,"endTime":1896.435,"body":"thing is exactly that same category is,"},{"startTime":1892.085,"endTime":1896.435,"body":"Learn your team, work with your product"},{"startTime":1896.445,"endTime":1900.585,"body":"people, ask them for, I mean, I almost"},{"startTime":1896.445,"endTime":1900.585,"body":"want to say ask them for these stats"},{"startTime":1900.755,"endTime":1903.865,"body":"so that you know when you're affecting"},{"startTime":1900.755,"endTime":1903.865,"body":"or not, but just have a conversation."},{"startTime":1904.075,"endTime":1906.025,"body":"Hey, am I putting too much on the team?"},{"startTime":1906.125,"endTime":1906.975,"body":"Have a one on one."},{"startTime":1907.125,"endTime":1908.085,"body":"Am I putting too much on the team?"},{"startTime":1908.085,"endTime":1909.105,"body":"Am I pushing too hard?"},{"startTime":1909.245,"endTime":1909.875,"body":"Let me know."},{"startTime":1910.025,"endTime":1914.265,"body":"Okay, the trade off is me saying have"},{"startTime":1910.025,"endTime":1914.265,"body":"a one on one and ask them is they may"},{"startTime":1914.265,"endTime":1916.195,"body":"not, they may be like the development."},{"startTime":1916.195,"endTime":1917.075,"body":"Oh yeah, we got this."},{"startTime":1917.225,"endTime":1918.535,"body":"We're working on Sunday as well."},{"startTime":1918.535,"endTime":1920.205,"body":"No problem, guy."},{"startTime":1920.435,"endTime":1921.445,"body":"Everything's great."},{"startTime":1921.785,"endTime":1922.685,"body":"That might be the trade off."},{"startTime":1922.815,"endTime":1926.145,"body":"They're not open to say"},{"startTime":1922.815,"endTime":1926.145,"body":"how they really feel."},{"startTime":1926.315,"endTime":1926.685,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"startTime":1926.685,"endTime":1927.105,"body":"agree."},{"startTime":1927.325,"endTime":1931.715,"body":"So, first of all, they're not open,"},{"startTime":1927.325,"endTime":1931.715,"body":"especially if they're outsourced"},{"startTime":1931.875,"endTime":1933.265,"body":"to different parts of the world."},{"startTime":1933.275,"endTime":1937.025,"body":"Because, you know, they're not,"},{"startTime":1933.275,"endTime":1937.025,"body":"it's not in their culture to argue"},{"startTime":1937.055,"endTime":1939.015,"body":"against having to work overtime."},{"startTime":1939.025,"endTime":1940.535,"body":"And I'm not talking about a few hours."},{"startTime":1940.535,"endTime":1944.465,"body":"I'm talking about substantial,"},{"startTime":1940.535,"endTime":1944.465,"body":"significant overtime hours, right?"},{"startTime":1944.615,"endTime":1946.755,"body":"So once so it's a double edged sword here."},{"startTime":1946.855,"endTime":1951.295,"body":"Here's what, here's why I say that"},{"startTime":1946.855,"endTime":1951.295,"body":"when you have a team in Manila or"},{"startTime":1951.295,"endTime":1956.095,"body":"India or wherever, and you ask them,"},{"startTime":1951.295,"endTime":1956.095,"body":"you say, listen, leadership is really"},{"startTime":1956.095,"endTime":1958.135,"body":"looking for this by the, by this date."},{"startTime":1958.175,"endTime":1960.005,"body":"And it'd be great if"},{"startTime":1958.175,"endTime":1960.005,"body":"you could achieve that."},{"startTime":1960.155,"endTime":1964.365,"body":"Most of these team members"},{"startTime":1960.155,"endTime":1964.365,"body":"don't work for your org."},{"startTime":1964.395,"endTime":1968.435,"body":"They work for some consulting"},{"startTime":1964.395,"endTime":1968.435,"body":"org and the culture there is"},{"startTime":1968.455,"endTime":1969.675,"body":"they do what the client says."},{"startTime":1969.825,"endTime":1972.905,"body":"And if they say, Oh, you need"},{"startTime":1969.825,"endTime":1972.905,"body":"to work extra 20 hours, do it."},{"startTime":1972.975,"endTime":1975.865,"body":"If it turns out to be 25,"},{"startTime":1972.975,"endTime":1975.865,"body":"do it, but build 20 anyway."},{"startTime":1975.925,"endTime":1976.245,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1976.245,"endTime":1976.465,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1976.475,"endTime":1977.505,"body":"So they do it right."},{"startTime":1977.745,"endTime":1981.125,"body":"I've seen this many, many"},{"startTime":1977.745,"endTime":1981.125,"body":"times in my career and."},{"startTime":1981.275,"endTime":1985.835,"body":"These teams to their credit, they, they"},{"startTime":1981.275,"endTime":1985.835,"body":"do it, they burn the candle at both"},{"startTime":1985.835,"endTime":1988.865,"body":"ends because they're not the ones that"},{"startTime":1985.835,"endTime":1988.865,"body":"say, you know, cause we worked last"},{"startTime":1988.865,"endTime":1992.365,"body":"night and I, yeah, I won't be at the"},{"startTime":1988.865,"endTime":1992.365,"body":"daily standard, move the hours around."},{"startTime":1992.515,"endTime":1994.535,"body":"So they burn the candle at both ends."},{"startTime":1994.625,"endTime":1999.215,"body":"So here's what happens long term"},{"startTime":1994.625,"endTime":1999.215,"body":"or medium term is you meet to those"},{"startTime":1999.225,"endTime":2004.355,"body":"demands that management's asking for,"},{"startTime":1999.225,"endTime":2004.355,"body":"but long term what happens is it."},{"startTime":2004.505,"endTime":2009.055,"body":"It behooves this kind of expectation"},{"startTime":2004.505,"endTime":2009.055,"body":"that management says, Well, you"},{"startTime":2009.055,"endTime":2010.175,"body":"know, you just have to ask them."},{"startTime":2010.185,"endTime":2011.235,"body":"They'll just do it, right?"},{"startTime":2011.455,"endTime":2012.345,"body":"So just ask them again."},{"startTime":2012.365,"endTime":2013.295,"body":"And then we ask them again."},{"startTime":2013.295,"endTime":2013.965,"body":"And we ask them again."},{"startTime":2013.965,"endTime":2014.615,"body":"What are they going to do?"},{"startTime":2014.695,"endTime":2015.145,"body":"Just ask them."},{"startTime":2015.295,"endTime":2019.845,"body":"That's terrible, because I actually got to"},{"startTime":2015.295,"endTime":2019.845,"body":"the point where I, you know, I connected"},{"startTime":2019.845,"endTime":2023.695,"body":"with some of these people on a one on one"},{"startTime":2019.845,"endTime":2023.695,"body":"basis, and I understand their motivation."},{"startTime":2023.845,"endTime":2027.995,"body":"That was a few years ago, where they"},{"startTime":2023.845,"endTime":2027.995,"body":"had, it was long enough ago, let's"},{"startTime":2027.995,"endTime":2031.925,"body":"just say that They wanted to stay with"},{"startTime":2027.995,"endTime":2031.925,"body":"their their employer, you know, that"},{"startTime":2031.935,"endTime":2035.945,"body":"had prestigious, you know, contracts or"},{"startTime":2031.935,"endTime":2035.945,"body":"whatever, of course, fast forwarded today."},{"startTime":2036.095,"endTime":2037.235,"body":"That's not the case here."},{"startTime":2037.395,"endTime":2040.675,"body":"If you do that today, they're just"},{"startTime":2037.395,"endTime":2040.675,"body":"going to say, no, I value my life"},{"startTime":2040.675,"endTime":2045.045,"body":"more and they'll be gone because"},{"startTime":2040.675,"endTime":2045.045,"body":"they can get a job like that today."},{"startTime":2045.315,"endTime":2046.475,"body":"That wasn't the case."},{"startTime":2046.475,"endTime":2050.805,"body":"I want to say eight years ago,"},{"startTime":2046.475,"endTime":2050.805,"body":"even so people who are doing this."},{"startTime":2050.955,"endTime":2052.175,"body":"Please be aware."},{"startTime":2052.325,"endTime":2055.075,"body":"It's you're rolling a dice here, right?"},{"startTime":2055.295,"endTime":2058.925,"body":"If it lands in your favor, you can talk"},{"startTime":2055.295,"endTime":2058.925,"body":"to your management and say look what"},{"startTime":2058.925,"endTime":2062.055,"body":"I got these people to do I squeezed"},{"startTime":2058.925,"endTime":2062.055,"body":"them hard and we made it right."},{"startTime":2062.055,"endTime":2063.125,"body":"Can I have my bonus now?"},{"startTime":2063.175,"endTime":2068.185,"body":"Right, but if it goes the other way"},{"startTime":2063.175,"endTime":2068.185,"body":"It can be very, very bad because,"},{"startTime":2068.185,"endTime":2071.605,"body":"you know, it's, you're gonna"},{"startTime":2068.185,"endTime":2071.605,"body":"start off again with a new team."},{"startTime":2071.635,"endTime":2072.705,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2072.915,"endTime":2076.725,"body":"So that is something that's"},{"startTime":2072.915,"endTime":2076.725,"body":"reasonably new now, so be aware"},{"startTime":2076.725,"endTime":2077.055,"body":"of that."},{"startTime":2077.055,"endTime":2081.585,"body":"I would also be careful of listening"},{"startTime":2077.055,"endTime":2081.585,"body":"for that disdain when it comes to, you"},{"startTime":2081.585,"endTime":2085.885,"body":"know, oh, these offshore developers"},{"startTime":2081.585,"endTime":2085.885,"body":"are totally bilking me of all."},{"startTime":2086.155,"endTime":2089.625,"body":"Like, you can hear that disdain"},{"startTime":2086.155,"endTime":2089.625,"body":"pretty quickly to understand that."},{"startTime":2089.625,"endTime":2092.155,"body":"And if you hear it, You"},{"startTime":2089.625,"endTime":2092.155,"body":"should raise a flag to say, I"},{"startTime":2092.155,"endTime":2092.985,"body":"think there's a problem here."},{"startTime":2092.995,"endTime":2096.035,"body":"Like it doesn't sound like we're treating"},{"startTime":2092.995,"endTime":2096.035,"body":"these employees with empathy and we're"},{"startTime":2096.035,"endTime":2098.575,"body":"treating them like they, we want them"},{"startTime":2096.035,"endTime":2098.575,"body":"to integrate as part of our culture."},{"startTime":2098.605,"endTime":2101.095,"body":"It sounds like we're"},{"startTime":2098.605,"endTime":2101.095,"body":"treating them adversarially."},{"startTime":2101.245,"endTime":2101.955,"body":"Is that a real word?"},{"startTime":2102.005,"endTime":2102.505,"body":"I don't really know."},{"startTime":2102.655,"endTime":2103.035,"body":"But, but,"},{"startTime":2103.185,"endTime":2104.995,"body":"but his next, Oh, got to"},{"startTime":2103.185,"endTime":2104.995,"body":"ring out them resources."},{"startTime":2104.995,"endTime":2107.675,"body":"I mean, his, his next got to"},{"startTime":2104.995,"endTime":2107.675,"body":"ring out them, them washcloths."},{"startTime":2107.885,"endTime":2111.745,"body":"His next point leads straight into"},{"startTime":2107.885,"endTime":2111.745,"body":"what we were talking about, which is"},{"startTime":2111.745,"endTime":2113.485,"body":"alignment with a broader strategy."},{"startTime":2113.605,"endTime":2113.785,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2113.815,"endTime":2115.615,"body":"First of all, this implies"},{"startTime":2113.815,"endTime":2115.615,"body":"that you have a strategy."},{"startTime":2115.765,"endTime":2116.825,"body":". . Oh, what a concept."},{"startTime":2116.975,"endTime":2117.435,"body":"Oh, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2117.585,"endTime":2120.695,"body":"See our multiple, many, many, many"},{"startTime":2117.585,"endTime":2120.695,"body":"of our previous podcasts on this one."},{"startTime":2120.695,"endTime":2122.055,"body":"But you have a strategy."},{"startTime":2122.205,"endTime":2125.235,"body":"Your product, people know what that"},{"startTime":2122.205,"endTime":2125.235,"body":"strategy is, and you are tied into it."},{"startTime":2125.415,"endTime":2128.925,"body":"Obviously, he's saying here, he's saying"},{"startTime":2125.415,"endTime":2128.925,"body":"here in the article is like, do you need."},{"startTime":2129.075,"endTime":2131.915,"body":"A product manager on an"},{"startTime":2129.075,"endTime":2131.915,"body":"infrastructure only team."},{"startTime":2132.105,"endTime":2136.95,"body":"Well, if your team connects to strategy,"},{"startTime":2132.105,"endTime":2136.95,"body":"then  I think of saying like, well,"},{"startTime":2136.96,"endTime":2139.88,"body":"we can have our tech lead, our tech"},{"startTime":2136.96,"endTime":2139.88,"body":"lead should understand strategy."},{"startTime":2140.07,"endTime":2141.03,"body":"Maybe they could sit in."},{"startTime":2141.295,"endTime":2145.085,"body":"Occasionally on a product meeting and"},{"startTime":2141.295,"endTime":2145.085,"body":"talk about where their team and products"},{"startTime":2145.365,"endTime":2149.195,"body":"could tie into the strategies that Right"},{"startTime":2145.365,"endTime":2149.195,"body":"that I feel like we've we've hit the"},{"startTime":2149.195,"endTime":2154.285,"body":"first we've hit the first real black"},{"startTime":2149.195,"endTime":2154.285,"body":"and white Item that he's he should like"},{"startTime":2154.295,"endTime":2157.445,"body":"honestly if I wrote this article, I"},{"startTime":2154.295,"endTime":2157.445,"body":"would lead with this one to say me too"},{"startTime":2157.465,"endTime":2161.335,"body":"How is your team and the products that"},{"startTime":2157.465,"endTime":2161.335,"body":"they provide their platform team, right?"},{"startTime":2161.335,"endTime":2164.135,"body":"So they provide the platform that"},{"startTime":2161.335,"endTime":2164.135,"body":"everyone else builds on how is your"},{"startTime":2164.135,"endTime":2165.935,"body":"team and the platform they provide?"},{"startTime":2166.11,"endTime":2172.18,"body":"tie into the broader business strategies"},{"startTime":2166.11,"endTime":2172.18,"body":"and, and in his article, global business"},{"startTime":2172.18,"endTime":2176.65,"body":"strategies, business strategies that"},{"startTime":2172.18,"endTime":2176.65,"body":"my entire business is engaged in."},{"startTime":2176.87,"endTime":2180.91,"body":"I mean, that's a, first of all, first"},{"startTime":2176.87,"endTime":2180.91,"body":"of all, and I will tell you again, as"},{"startTime":2180.91,"endTime":2185.13,"body":"a product manager in this conversation,"},{"startTime":2180.91,"endTime":2185.13,"body":"this is a full time job answering just"},{"startTime":2185.13,"endTime":2186.98,"body":"what he is, his little two sentence, three"},{"startTime":2186.98,"endTime":2187.77,"body":"sentence, three sentence."},{"startTime":2187.92,"endTime":2189.63,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is a full time job."},{"startTime":2189.69,"endTime":2192.49,"body":"Somebody who just goes around"},{"startTime":2189.69,"endTime":2192.49,"body":"to all the development teams and"},{"startTime":2192.49,"endTime":2193.88,"body":"says, what are you about to do?"},{"startTime":2193.97,"endTime":2194.8,"body":"What are you about to do?"},{"startTime":2194.86,"endTime":2195.68,"body":"What are you about to do?"},{"startTime":2195.9,"endTime":2198.47,"body":"We need to adjust our roadmap to"},{"startTime":2195.9,"endTime":2198.47,"body":"make sure that we have bandwidth."},{"startTime":2198.66,"endTime":2202.04,"body":"We have the runway for you to take"},{"startTime":2198.66,"endTime":2202.04,"body":"off because you keep building these"},{"startTime":2202.06,"endTime":2203.62,"body":"bigger and bigger and bigger planes."},{"startTime":2203.77,"endTime":2206.32,"body":"So I have to keep building a"},{"startTime":2203.77,"endTime":2206.32,"body":"bigger and bigger, bigger runway."},{"startTime":2206.47,"endTime":2208.21,"body":"With more and more and more parking spots."},{"startTime":2208.51,"endTime":2210.33,"body":"That's basically what you're"},{"startTime":2208.51,"endTime":2210.33,"body":"doing on a platform team."},{"startTime":2210.55,"endTime":2211.99,"body":"So how do you even know"},{"startTime":2210.55,"endTime":2211.99,"body":"that you're doing that?"},{"startTime":2212.11,"endTime":2214.85,"body":"You're running around these other teams"},{"startTime":2212.11,"endTime":2214.85,"body":"and you're gathering information and"},{"startTime":2214.85,"endTime":2218.41,"body":"you're making concessions and you're"},{"startTime":2214.85,"endTime":2218.41,"body":"trying to line their priorities up while"},{"startTime":2218.41,"endTime":2219.96,"body":"you line your team's priorities up."},{"startTime":2220.21,"endTime":2222.75,"body":"And quite honestly I could end the"},{"startTime":2220.21,"endTime":2222.75,"body":"podcast just talking about this one."},{"startTime":2222.9,"endTime":2226.84,"body":"Like, if nobody is sold by now that"},{"startTime":2222.9,"endTime":2226.84,"body":"you need a product manager on your"},{"startTime":2226.84,"endTime":2230.14,"body":"development team and it's not a"},{"startTime":2226.84,"endTime":2230.14,"body":"part time job to play the role.."},{"startTime":2230.405,"endTime":2232.105,"body":"Sure, you're going to do this part time?"},{"startTime":2232.255,"endTime":2234.885,"body":"If you can do this part"},{"startTime":2232.255,"endTime":2234.885,"body":"time, Congratulations."},{"startTime":2235.035,"endTime":2236.825,"body":"You should have a podcast."},{"startTime":2236.835,"endTime":2238.425,"body":"Actually,  come on this podcast."},{"startTime":2238.575,"endTime":2240.185,"body":"You should come on this"},{"startTime":2238.575,"endTime":2240.185,"body":"podcast and help us."},{"startTime":2240.245,"endTime":2241.735,"body":"Because we don't know"},{"startTime":2240.245,"endTime":2241.735,"body":"how to do this part time."},{"startTime":2241.86,"endTime":2244.84,"body":"So this is one of the things where"},{"startTime":2241.86,"endTime":2244.84,"body":"people just say, you know, Oh,"},{"startTime":2244.84,"endTime":2248.77,"body":"I'm going to spin a coin and it"},{"startTime":2244.84,"endTime":2248.77,"body":"doesn't matter where it lands."},{"startTime":2248.77,"endTime":2250.6,"body":"I'm just going to call it one side."},{"startTime":2250.75,"endTime":2256.74,"body":"The product, product is usually more"},{"startTime":2250.75,"endTime":2256.74,"body":"customer focused than development is."},{"startTime":2256.89,"endTime":2262.39,"body":"But at the same time, product cannot"},{"startTime":2256.89,"endTime":2262.39,"body":"deliver to the business, the customers,"},{"startTime":2262.44,"endTime":2265.14,"body":"unless development delivers too."},{"startTime":2265.29,"endTime":2266.6,"body":"It's so difficult."},{"startTime":2266.84,"endTime":2269.89,"body":"The Romans had a concept here, right?"},{"startTime":2270.2,"endTime":2271.51,"body":"The Romans were very, very successful."},{"startTime":2271.66,"endTime":2275.6,"body":"Alexander the Great, he was"},{"startTime":2271.66,"endTime":2275.6,"body":"so successful at basically"},{"startTime":2276.34,"endTime":2277.52,"body":"steamrolling so many countries."},{"startTime":2277.87,"endTime":2279.16,"body":"How do you think he did that?"},{"startTime":2279.18,"endTime":2280.99,"body":"He did that with two things."},{"startTime":2281.0,"endTime":2286.48,"body":"One is, he told his army where they're"},{"startTime":2281.0,"endTime":2286.48,"body":"going, why they're going there, right?"},{"startTime":2286.63,"endTime":2290.38,"body":"And the second thing he told"},{"startTime":2286.63,"endTime":2290.38,"body":"his generals is what's next?"},{"startTime":2290.53,"endTime":2291.5,"body":"Once we get there..."},{"startTime":2291.65,"endTime":2295.15,"body":"We're gonna win and once we win that"},{"startTime":2291.65,"endTime":2295.15,"body":"we're gonna go to the other place."},{"startTime":2295.18,"endTime":2295.76,"body":"We're gonna win."},{"startTime":2295.91,"endTime":2299.735,"body":"That was his thing So the"},{"startTime":2295.91,"endTime":2299.735,"body":"generals were always aware of not"},{"startTime":2299.735,"endTime":2301.135,"body":"only why they're there, right?"},{"startTime":2301.175,"endTime":2302.855,"body":"But where are they going next?"},{"startTime":2303.005,"endTime":2304.925,"body":"Guys, this is the product roadmap."},{"startTime":2304.995,"endTime":2309.745,"body":"Yeah, right So without that what"},{"startTime":2304.995,"endTime":2309.745,"body":"they would have said is we're going"},{"startTime":2309.745,"endTime":2314.205,"body":"into this place where there's 8, 000"},{"startTime":2309.745,"endTime":2314.205,"body":"of us We're going through ravines"},{"startTime":2314.205,"endTime":2317.665,"body":"and whatnot and there's 30, 000"},{"startTime":2314.205,"endTime":2317.665,"body":"of the enemy What do you think the"},{"startTime":2317.665,"endTime":2319.985,"body":"general will tell their soldiers?"},{"startTime":2320.265,"endTime":2321.425,"body":"There's 8, 000 of us."},{"startTime":2321.465,"endTime":2322.675,"body":"There's 30, 000 of them."},{"startTime":2323.04,"endTime":2323.86,"body":"Not even a fair game."},{"startTime":2324.01,"endTime":2324.4,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2324.73,"endTime":2331.04,"body":"So that didn't happen because, because"},{"startTime":2324.73,"endTime":2331.04,"body":"the leader here, the product, right?"},{"startTime":2331.34,"endTime":2332.91,"body":"He said, we're going to get this."},{"startTime":2333.03,"endTime":2334.48,"body":"And here's how we're going to get this."},{"startTime":2334.63,"endTime":2336.59,"body":"Our strategy is different, right?"},{"startTime":2336.7,"endTime":2338.57,"body":"We're going to do XYZ."},{"startTime":2338.6,"endTime":2340.27,"body":"There were many strategies"},{"startTime":2338.6,"endTime":2340.27,"body":"that he deployed."},{"startTime":2340.46,"endTime":2346.2,"body":"And you know, major generals now are now"},{"startTime":2340.46,"endTime":2346.2,"body":"learning, or they have been learning from."},{"startTime":2346.35,"endTime":2349.98,"body":"This is goes back centuries, but they"},{"startTime":2346.35,"endTime":2349.98,"body":"learn about things like the pincher"},{"startTime":2349.98,"endTime":2352.42,"body":"movement,  people learn about the tactics"},{"startTime":2352.495,"endTime":2358.415,"body":"my whole diatribe here is to say your"},{"startTime":2352.495,"endTime":2358.415,"body":"Individual development team members not"},{"startTime":2358.455,"endTime":2360.215,"body":"just need to know what they need to do."},{"startTime":2360.365,"endTime":2362.325,"body":"If you stop in there, you're failing."},{"startTime":2362.455,"endTime":2365.335,"body":". They need to know why they"},{"startTime":2362.455,"endTime":2365.335,"body":"need to know the what, the why."},{"startTime":2365.625,"endTime":2367.285,"body":"And then they will figure out"},{"startTime":2367.465,"endTime":2367.765,"body":"that."},{"startTime":2367.865,"endTime":2369.695,"body":"Well, it's not just the"},{"startTime":2367.865,"endTime":2369.695,"body":"individual team members."},{"startTime":2369.695,"endTime":2373.695,"body":"Like one of his points here is"},{"startTime":2369.695,"endTime":2373.695,"body":"supporting multi team initiatives."},{"startTime":2373.695,"endTime":2377.655,"body":"He says a big efforts require"},{"startTime":2373.695,"endTime":2377.655,"body":"collaboration and shared"},{"startTime":2377.655,"endTime":2379.465,"body":"priorities across several teams."},{"startTime":2379.775,"endTime":2383.295,"body":"The product managers on the teams do a"},{"startTime":2379.775,"endTime":2383.295,"body":"lot of horse trading, which is a great"},{"startTime":2383.375,"endTime":2387.245,"body":"term by the way, horse trading, and joint"},{"startTime":2383.375,"endTime":2387.245,"body":"business justification to get things done."},{"startTime":2387.245,"endTime":2389.185,"body":"Complex decision making basically."},{"startTime":2389.335,"endTime":2394.65,"body":"And if that is done, Without the"},{"startTime":2389.335,"endTime":2394.65,"body":"representation of the infrastructure team,"},{"startTime":2394.84,"endTime":2396.34,"body":"there's a lot of assumptions that happen."},{"startTime":2396.38,"endTime":2398.825,"body":"And you and I both know , it's"},{"startTime":2396.38,"endTime":2398.825,"body":"very difficult to do accurate"},{"startTime":2398.855,"endTime":2401.138,"body":"estimation on assumptions."},{"startTime":2401.288,"endTime":2404.858,"body":"You kind of need to know, you know,"},{"startTime":2401.288,"endTime":2404.858,"body":"and if you're leaving this, if you're"},{"startTime":2404.858,"endTime":2408.638,"body":"leaving this team I guess piece, piece"},{"startTime":2404.858,"endTime":2408.638,"body":"of the equation, I don't, I don't know,"},{"startTime":2408.638,"endTime":2412.778,"body":"but like if you're leaving this whole"},{"startTime":2408.638,"endTime":2412.778,"body":"section out and just assuming, like"},{"startTime":2412.878,"endTime":2414.858,"body":"I don't know, that's like building"},{"startTime":2412.878,"endTime":2414.858,"body":"your house on a mountain of sand."},{"startTime":2414.858,"endTime":2416.858,"body":"That's, that's, that's, it"},{"startTime":2414.858,"endTime":2416.858,"body":"doesn't make me feel good."},{"startTime":2417.008,"endTime":2421.373,"body":"It would make me feel better if someone"},{"startTime":2417.008,"endTime":2421.373,"body":"had a handle On, I mean, you're already"},{"startTime":2421.373,"endTime":2426.413,"body":"going into it with the, with the, the"},{"startTime":2421.373,"endTime":2426.413,"body":"military analogy of, of, which we also"},{"startTime":2426.413,"endTime":2429.923,"body":"talked about before of what is the goal?"},{"startTime":2430.073,"endTime":2431.783,"body":"Well, the goal is to build a cathedral."},{"startTime":2431.953,"endTime":2432.373,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2432.453,"endTime":2433.133,"body":"That's the vision."},{"startTime":2433.173,"endTime":2435.023,"body":"We're going to end up"},{"startTime":2433.173,"endTime":2435.023,"body":"building a cathedral."},{"startTime":2435.263,"endTime":2435.753,"body":"Well."},{"startTime":2435.893,"endTime":2437.413,"body":"I mean, how are we going to do that?"},{"startTime":2437.413,"endTime":2440.703,"body":"I mean, I got this, I only got a couple"},{"startTime":2437.413,"endTime":2440.703,"body":"of bricks that I see in front of me."},{"startTime":2440.853,"endTime":2442.333,"body":"Don't pay attention to all the bricks."},{"startTime":2442.553,"endTime":2446.353,"body":"Pay attention to where we're going"},{"startTime":2442.553,"endTime":2446.353,"body":"and make your goals tied into, you"},{"startTime":2446.353,"endTime":2447.693,"body":"know, building a giant cathedral."},{"startTime":2447.843,"endTime":2448.273,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2448.403,"endTime":2452.653,"body":"And Hey, no, well, one of the"},{"startTime":2448.403,"endTime":2452.653,"body":"things that, yes, I agree."},{"startTime":2452.873,"endTime":2456.923,"body":"The bigger picture is often lacking,"},{"startTime":2452.873,"endTime":2456.923,"body":"unfortunately, in large, complex,"},{"startTime":2457.223,"endTime":2460.733,"body":"especially in matrix orgs, who people"},{"startTime":2457.223,"endTime":2460.733,"body":"are in it for themselves, right?"},{"startTime":2460.953,"endTime":2464.163,"body":"This is where you say, well, if"},{"startTime":2460.953,"endTime":2464.163,"body":"I do this, I'll get my bonus or"},{"startTime":2464.163,"endTime":2465.553,"body":"priority, whatever it is, or both."},{"startTime":2465.703,"endTime":2467.113,"body":"If you're doing that, great."},{"startTime":2467.353,"endTime":2471.863,"body":"However, your organization"},{"startTime":2467.353,"endTime":2471.863,"body":"is not succeeding as an org."},{"startTime":2472.213,"endTime":2473.743,"body":"So you're sitting there going."},{"startTime":2473.893,"endTime":2476.733,"body":"Yeah, that person that I used to"},{"startTime":2473.893,"endTime":2476.733,"body":"deal with as a product owner is"},{"startTime":2476.733,"endTime":2479.123,"body":"now the product manager or the"},{"startTime":2476.733,"endTime":2479.123,"body":"lead product manager or whatever."},{"startTime":2479.333,"endTime":2482.713,"body":"They're just going up and up and up but"},{"startTime":2479.333,"endTime":2482.713,"body":"our customers are leaving us in droves."},{"startTime":2483.033,"endTime":2483.403,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2483.533,"endTime":2485.123,"body":"How do you reconcile that?"},{"startTime":2485.273,"endTime":2487.783,"body":"And if you're not reconciling"},{"startTime":2485.273,"endTime":2487.783,"body":"that, think about it."},{"startTime":2487.943,"endTime":2488.223,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2488.243,"endTime":2489.213,"body":"Because you're paid."},{"startTime":2489.363,"endTime":2491.623,"body":"You're paid because your"},{"startTime":2489.363,"endTime":2491.623,"body":"customers are paying you and if"},{"startTime":2491.623,"endTime":2492.823,"body":"they're not paying you not paid."},{"startTime":2492.883,"endTime":2498.223,"body":"I think the biggest difficulty here is"},{"startTime":2492.883,"endTime":2498.223,"body":"having having that economic view Yes,"},{"startTime":2498.313,"endTime":2500.618,"body":"and this is like gonna sound Terrible."},{"startTime":2500.618,"endTime":2503.298,"body":"Because those people that are"},{"startTime":2500.618,"endTime":2503.298,"body":"following safe are going to, Oh,"},{"startTime":2503.348,"endTime":2504.938,"body":"you're taking the economic, you know,"},{"startTime":2505.118,"endTime":2509.348,"body":"I just gave this advice very recently"},{"startTime":2505.118,"endTime":2509.348,"body":"to a team that was not ready to hear it."},{"startTime":2509.348,"endTime":2511.608,"body":"So it wasn't good advice because"},{"startTime":2509.348,"endTime":2511.608,"body":"the team wasn't right here, but"},{"startTime":2511.608,"endTime":2514.358,"body":"I heard it, but I told, I told,"},{"startTime":2511.608,"endTime":2514.358,"body":"I gave them the old Mike Miller."},{"startTime":2514.358,"endTime":2518.568,"body":"I said, teams that do not have"},{"startTime":2514.358,"endTime":2518.568,"body":"economic information, just like teams"},{"startTime":2518.568,"endTime":2521.538,"body":"that don't have information about"},{"startTime":2518.568,"endTime":2521.538,"body":"the platform roadmap or whatever."},{"startTime":2521.828,"endTime":2523.148,"body":"Like they cannot make."},{"startTime":2523.478,"endTime":2524.518,"body":"economic decisions."},{"startTime":2524.588,"endTime":2527.938,"body":"Teams that do not have"},{"startTime":2524.588,"endTime":2527.938,"body":"economic information cannot"},{"startTime":2527.938,"endTime":2529.658,"body":"make economic decisions."},{"startTime":2529.658,"endTime":2530.238,"body":"Say that one more"},{"startTime":2530.238,"endTime":2530.478,"body":"time."},{"startTime":2530.488,"endTime":2531.208,"body":"Listen carefully."},{"startTime":2531.268,"endTime":2531.788,"body":"I'm going to say,"},{"startTime":2531.938,"endTime":2534.468,"body":"I'm going to say economic this"},{"startTime":2531.938,"endTime":2534.468,"body":"time because I'm American."},{"startTime":2534.648,"endTime":2535.008,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2535.008,"endTime":2539.608,"body":"If all your decisions are made"},{"startTime":2535.008,"endTime":2539.608,"body":"from non economic viewpoints."},{"startTime":2539.758,"endTime":2544.078,"body":"I mean, , how many decisions can you make"},{"startTime":2539.758,"endTime":2544.078,"body":"until you make the wrong decision based"},{"startTime":2544.078,"endTime":2547.138,"body":"on economic information and conditions?"},{"startTime":2547.418,"endTime":2548.518,"body":"Like I said, Milton would"},{"startTime":2548.528,"endTime":2549.098,"body":"be proud."},{"startTime":2549.128,"endTime":2551.488,"body":"I'm going to assume it's going"},{"startTime":2549.128,"endTime":2551.488,"body":"to be very quickly that you're"},{"startTime":2551.488,"endTime":2552.588,"body":"going to make a bad decision."},{"startTime":2552.598,"endTime":2553.038,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2553.058,"endTime":2556.888,"body":"You know, and, and your bad decision is"},{"startTime":2553.058,"endTime":2556.888,"body":"going to get called out By the people"},{"startTime":2556.918,"endTime":2561.258,"body":"who directly make decisions and can"},{"startTime":2556.918,"endTime":2561.258,"body":"shut you down with a snap of a finger."},{"startTime":2561.268,"endTime":2564.648,"body":"Like, as opposed to all this, quote, horse"},{"startTime":2561.268,"endTime":2564.648,"body":"trading that we were talking about before."},{"startTime":2564.828,"endTime":2567.678,"body":"No, the economic people in"},{"startTime":2564.828,"endTime":2567.678,"body":"your company are going to be"},{"startTime":2567.678,"endTime":2568.738,"body":"able to stop what you're doing."},{"startTime":2568.888,"endTime":2569.788,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2570.008,"endTime":2572.098,"body":"Listen, it comes faster"},{"startTime":2570.008,"endTime":2572.098,"body":"than a tsunami, right?"},{"startTime":2572.278,"endTime":2575.298,"body":"This is why we always say on this"},{"startTime":2572.278,"endTime":2575.298,"body":"podcast, keep that resume up to date."},{"startTime":2575.688,"endTime":2577.058,"body":"Oh, is that what we say?"},{"startTime":2577.058,"endTime":2579.588,"body":"I thought we always say on the podcast,"},{"startTime":2577.058,"endTime":2579.588,"body":"boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop."},{"startTime":2579.738,"endTime":2583.208,"body":"No, he wraps the article with something"},{"startTime":2579.738,"endTime":2583.208,"body":"that you disagree with earlier, but I'm"},{"startTime":2583.218,"endTime":2584.288,"body":"going to read the whole thing in context"},{"startTime":2584.438,"endTime":2587.368,"body":"so he says, Development teams"},{"startTime":2584.438,"endTime":2587.368,"body":"and their product managers solve"},{"startTime":2587.398,"endTime":2589.358,"body":"adjacent but different problems."},{"startTime":2589.378,"endTime":2592.638,"body":"If a work stream is important"},{"startTime":2589.378,"endTime":2592.638,"body":"enough to merit its own development"},{"startTime":2592.788,"endTime":2595.578,"body":"team, then it's important enough"},{"startTime":2592.788,"endTime":2595.578,"body":"to assign a product manager."},{"startTime":2595.768,"endTime":2600.548,"body":"Together we solve for what needs doing"},{"startTime":2595.768,"endTime":2600.548,"body":"and how to gracefully get it done."},{"startTime":2600.698,"endTime":2603.678,"body":"It's hard to argue"},{"startTime":2600.698,"endTime":2603.678,"body":"against the language here."},{"startTime":2603.828,"endTime":2608.278,"body":"In, in practice, what I've seen is"},{"startTime":2603.828,"endTime":2608.278,"body":"Yeah, people are playing like they're"},{"startTime":2608.278,"endTime":2612.258,"body":"not really treating, you know, those"},{"startTime":2608.278,"endTime":2612.258,"body":"people that are in the infrastructure"},{"startTime":2612.258,"endTime":2614.928,"body":"side of things with the same relevance."},{"startTime":2615.078,"endTime":2617.878,"body":"Same, I don't want to use the"},{"startTime":2615.078,"endTime":2617.878,"body":"P word, prioritization, but"},{"startTime":2618.138,"endTime":2619.418,"body":"the same importance, right?"},{"startTime":2619.568,"endTime":2620.548,"body":"I understand what you're"},{"startTime":2619.568,"endTime":2620.548,"body":"saying, yeah, I understand."},{"startTime":2620.698,"endTime":2624.418,"body":"They're saying, well, look, the teams"},{"startTime":2620.698,"endTime":2624.418,"body":"have developed it it's done, right?"},{"startTime":2624.458,"endTime":2625.578,"body":"We've tested it, it's good."},{"startTime":2625.728,"endTime":2627.208,"body":"So just put it out there."},{"startTime":2627.358,"endTime":2631.518,"body":"But the poor people that are putting it"},{"startTime":2627.358,"endTime":2631.518,"body":"out there are faced with a dichotomy."},{"startTime":2631.558,"endTime":2633.038,"body":"And the dichotomy is this."},{"startTime":2633.188,"endTime":2636.568,"body":"They, first of all, you have to"},{"startTime":2633.188,"endTime":2636.568,"body":"recognize there's only a few of them."},{"startTime":2636.718,"endTime":2639.508,"body":"Yeah, because these people"},{"startTime":2636.718,"endTime":2639.508,"body":"have specialist skill sets."},{"startTime":2639.538,"endTime":2642.888,"body":"I'm specifically talking about the"},{"startTime":2639.538,"endTime":2642.888,"body":"deployment, the dev ops guys here."},{"startTime":2643.038,"endTime":2645.528,"body":"And so there's fewer number."},{"startTime":2645.588,"endTime":2650.298,"body":"And if you're a large, large"},{"startTime":2645.588,"endTime":2650.298,"body":"ish company organization, that's"},{"startTime":2650.318,"endTime":2652.288,"body":"probably a separate entity somewhere."},{"startTime":2652.438,"endTime":2654.908,"body":"So you have to back still"},{"startTime":2652.438,"endTime":2654.908,"body":"borrow their time, right?"},{"startTime":2654.908,"endTime":2657.478,"body":"So you say to them, I want"},{"startTime":2654.908,"endTime":2657.478,"body":"this thing to go into."},{"startTime":2657.768,"endTime":2659.648,"body":"Production by the state and they go."},{"startTime":2659.648,"endTime":2660.328,"body":"Yeah, thank you."},{"startTime":2660.608,"endTime":2662.268,"body":"But we have 15 things ahead of you."},{"startTime":2662.418,"endTime":2663.388,"body":"So you have to wait."},{"startTime":2663.538,"endTime":2665.258,"body":"And the product manager says to you."},{"startTime":2665.268,"endTime":2666.658,"body":"Why can't you get it done again?"},{"startTime":2666.658,"endTime":2669.058,"body":"I'm going back to the podcast,"},{"startTime":2666.658,"endTime":2669.058,"body":"which is your scrum master."},{"startTime":2669.098,"endTime":2671.778,"body":"And the product person says"},{"startTime":2669.098,"endTime":2671.778,"body":"what we're done, right?"},{"startTime":2672.018,"endTime":2672.908,"body":"You say we're done."},{"startTime":2673.058,"endTime":2673.588,"body":"Yeah, we're done."},{"startTime":2673.698,"endTime":2675.048,"body":"Why can't we get into production?"},{"startTime":2675.058,"endTime":2677.278,"body":"Because We're backed up on DevOps."},{"startTime":2677.428,"endTime":2679.438,"body":"I can't tell you how many"},{"startTime":2677.428,"endTime":2679.438,"body":"times I've seen that."},{"startTime":2679.668,"endTime":2683.198,"body":"So DevOps people say, yeah,"},{"startTime":2679.668,"endTime":2683.198,"body":"listen, don't blame us."},{"startTime":2683.308,"endTime":2684.198,"body":"Give us more people."},{"startTime":2684.348,"endTime":2687.848,"body":"You can't get more people because"},{"startTime":2684.348,"endTime":2687.848,"body":"these are specialist skill sets."},{"startTime":2687.978,"endTime":2692.408,"body":"So you go around full circle and"},{"startTime":2687.978,"endTime":2692.408,"body":"you say, okay, what happens here?"},{"startTime":2692.743,"endTime":2695.393,"body":"You have 15 things that"},{"startTime":2692.743,"endTime":2695.393,"body":"need to go to production."},{"startTime":2695.593,"endTime":2698.173,"body":"Who is the loudest screaming voice here?"},{"startTime":2698.323,"endTime":2698.483,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2698.483,"endTime":2698.963,"body":"But wouldn't,"},{"startTime":2698.993,"endTime":2703.383,"body":"Wouldn't the fact that you have a bunch"},{"startTime":2698.993,"endTime":2703.383,"body":"of specialist skill sets on a team."},{"startTime":2703.533,"endTime":2707.383,"body":"Wouldn't it be even more important for"},{"startTime":2703.533,"endTime":2707.383,"body":"you to have a product manager so that"},{"startTime":2707.393,"endTime":2711.643,"body":"those specialists don't get tied up"},{"startTime":2707.393,"endTime":2711.643,"body":"in Doing this other role part time,"},{"startTime":2711.768,"endTime":2715.558,"body":"the takeaway his of his article is"},{"startTime":2711.768,"endTime":2715.558,"body":"it's sort of a weak take it's sort of"},{"startTime":2715.558,"endTime":2719.838,"body":"a weak call to action like the the call"},{"startTime":2715.558,"endTime":2719.838,"body":"to action I would put in here is the"},{"startTime":2719.838,"endTime":2723.058,"body":"people that work on the platform team"},{"startTime":2719.838,"endTime":2723.058,"body":"that that that and the funding that"},{"startTime":2723.058,"endTime":2728.218,"body":"goes into the platform team is And the"},{"startTime":2723.058,"endTime":2728.218,"body":"funding that goes into features that"},{"startTime":2728.218,"endTime":2734.028,"body":"rely on the platform team doing like"},{"startTime":2728.218,"endTime":2734.028,"body":"hitting all the marks is so expensive"},{"startTime":2734.178,"endTime":2739.068,"body":"that if you're going to skimp on one"},{"startTime":2734.178,"endTime":2739.068,"body":"team, it should not be this platform team."},{"startTime":2739.128,"endTime":2744.228,"body":"This platform team should have a scrum"},{"startTime":2739.128,"endTime":2744.228,"body":"master product manager potentially"},{"startTime":2744.238,"endTime":2747.528,"body":"help for the some people have product"},{"startTime":2744.238,"endTime":2747.528,"body":"operations to help product managers."},{"startTime":2747.768,"endTime":2750.598,"body":"I don't know if you saw that that"},{"startTime":2747.768,"endTime":2750.598,"body":"their toolbox should be the most"},{"startTime":2750.598,"endTime":2755.198,"body":"complicated full toolbox out of every"},{"startTime":2750.598,"endTime":2755.198,"body":"development team as opposed to what,"},{"startTime":2755.448,"endTime":2760.288,"body":"what you normally see, which is these"},{"startTime":2755.448,"endTime":2760.288,"body":"teams usually are kind of devoid of"},{"startTime":2760.298,"endTime":2763.828,"body":"all these additional skill sets again,"},{"startTime":2760.298,"endTime":2763.828,"body":"probably because they're so expensive."},{"startTime":2764.003,"endTime":2764.913,"body":"I couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":2764.923,"endTime":2767.683,"body":"However, the reality of"},{"startTime":2764.923,"endTime":2767.683,"body":"the situation is this."},{"startTime":2767.833,"endTime":2769.333,"body":"I'll go back to what"},{"startTime":2767.833,"endTime":2769.333,"body":"I said earlier, right?"},{"startTime":2769.343,"endTime":2772.693,"body":"You don't have enough people"},{"startTime":2769.343,"endTime":2772.693,"body":"with those DevOps skill sets, but"},{"startTime":2772.703,"endTime":2773.913,"body":"all of these are anti patterns."},{"startTime":2774.063,"endTime":2775.383,"body":"Here's what I mean by this."},{"startTime":2775.533,"endTime":2780.433,"body":"Why are you relying on an external"},{"startTime":2775.533,"endTime":2780.433,"body":"team to deploy the fruits of"},{"startTime":2780.433,"endTime":2781.813,"body":"your labor into production?"},{"startTime":2781.963,"endTime":2782.273,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2782.413,"endTime":2783.563,"body":"So you go to a bakery."},{"startTime":2783.713,"endTime":2786.563,"body":"Just bring it right down to"},{"startTime":2783.713,"endTime":2786.563,"body":"what people can relate to."},{"startTime":2786.713,"endTime":2787.623,"body":"Because I like to do that."},{"startTime":2787.653,"endTime":2788.103,"body":"I like donuts."},{"startTime":2788.403,"endTime":2789.303,"body":"I like donuts too."},{"startTime":2789.483,"endTime":2791.313,"body":"So you go to a bakery, right?"},{"startTime":2791.613,"endTime":2793.593,"body":"And, and you go, ah, I want this."},{"startTime":2793.613,"endTime":2794.823,"body":"They go, it's freshly baked."},{"startTime":2795.093,"endTime":2796.053,"body":"That's why I come here."},{"startTime":2796.393,"endTime":2798.193,"body":"I like the freshly baked stuff."},{"startTime":2798.543,"endTime":2799.483,"body":"Anyway, it's baked."},{"startTime":2799.603,"endTime":2801.063,"body":"It's just sitting on that tray over there."},{"startTime":2801.213,"endTime":2803.443,"body":"We'll be with you in about 40 minutes."},{"startTime":2803.593,"endTime":2804.373,"body":"Maybe 50."},{"startTime":2804.523,"endTime":2808.723,"body":"You know, when something can be picked"},{"startTime":2804.523,"endTime":2808.723,"body":"up off of that stack of trays and be"},{"startTime":2808.813,"endTime":2810.763,"body":"put into a bag and we'll give it to you."},{"startTime":2810.913,"endTime":2812.143,"body":"And you're like, okay."},{"startTime":2812.253,"endTime":2813.253,"body":"You wait and you wait."},{"startTime":2813.433,"endTime":2815.113,"body":"By the time you get it, it ain't..."},{"startTime":2815.263,"endTime":2817.033,"body":"No longer warm."},{"startTime":2817.183,"endTime":2820.523,"body":"So the whole point of you going to the"},{"startTime":2817.183,"endTime":2820.523,"body":"bakery to get something freshly baked"},{"startTime":2820.523,"endTime":2823.883,"body":"and warm is already compromised, right?"},{"startTime":2824.113,"endTime":2827.783,"body":"And this is exactly what happens"},{"startTime":2824.113,"endTime":2827.783,"body":"with organizations that have"},{"startTime":2827.783,"endTime":2830.453,"body":"this structure of DevOps teams."},{"startTime":2830.653,"endTime":2832.513,"body":"So, what is the real solution?"},{"startTime":2832.663,"endTime":2836.493,"body":"The real solution is Perhaps not"},{"startTime":2832.663,"endTime":2836.493,"body":"that palatable for most people,"},{"startTime":2836.533,"endTime":2841.713,"body":"but it is still the real solution,"},{"startTime":2836.533,"endTime":2841.713,"body":"which is empower somebody on your"},{"startTime":2841.713,"endTime":2844.413,"body":"team to put things into production."},{"startTime":2844.433,"endTime":2845.093,"body":"Why not?"},{"startTime":2845.293,"endTime":2848.923,"body":"After all, you empower them to create"},{"startTime":2845.293,"endTime":2848.923,"body":"the thing to begin with, right?"},{"startTime":2849.073,"endTime":2851.023,"body":"So empower them to say when it's ready."},{"startTime":2851.173,"endTime":2853.093,"body":"Sure, put the guardrails in place, right?"},{"startTime":2853.243,"endTime":2856.293,"body":"UAT passed, UAT this and"},{"startTime":2853.243,"endTime":2856.293,"body":"that, customer accepted."},{"startTime":2856.293,"endTime":2857.493,"body":"Whatever it is, it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":2857.553,"endTime":2858.413,"body":"Go through all of that."},{"startTime":2858.493,"endTime":2862.293,"body":"But then, before you chuck it"},{"startTime":2858.493,"endTime":2862.293,"body":"over the wall at this team that"},{"startTime":2862.383,"endTime":2865.123,"body":"there's not enough people in and"},{"startTime":2862.383,"endTime":2865.123,"body":"all of that stuff and you wait."},{"startTime":2865.248,"endTime":2870.538,"body":"Your team says we got the skill sets to"},{"startTime":2865.248,"endTime":2870.538,"body":"do this Now as a team with your product"},{"startTime":2870.538,"endTime":2873.838,"body":"people you get together and say there"},{"startTime":2870.538,"endTime":2873.838,"body":"are five things that we've done in this"},{"startTime":2873.838,"endTime":2875.928,"body":"sprint Do we put all five in production?"},{"startTime":2875.938,"endTime":2878.558,"body":"Do we put two which two do we put one?"},{"startTime":2878.708,"endTime":2882.808,"body":"That's where you need to be because when"},{"startTime":2878.708,"endTime":2882.808,"body":"you put that into production Guess what?"},{"startTime":2882.848,"endTime":2884.058,"body":"You've done it in two weeks."},{"startTime":2884.178,"endTime":2887.398,"body":"You've done it in a sprint Instead"},{"startTime":2884.178,"endTime":2887.398,"body":"of waiting for some external"},{"startTime":2887.548,"endTime":2889.878,"body":"party DevOps team to do this."},{"startTime":2890.028,"endTime":2895.518,"body":"What I've seen in in my experience is the"},{"startTime":2890.028,"endTime":2895.518,"body":"DevOps team is always under resourced on."},{"startTime":2895.708,"endTime":2900.978,"body":"They don't have enough people and they're"},{"startTime":2895.708,"endTime":2900.978,"body":"being hit by multiple angles, right?"},{"startTime":2901.158,"endTime":2903.018,"body":"So senior stakeholders are gone."},{"startTime":2903.288,"endTime":2904.938,"body":"Hey, we have this customer screaming."},{"startTime":2905.048,"endTime":2906.148,"body":"Put that stuff in and they go."},{"startTime":2906.188,"endTime":2906.538,"body":"Well, that's."},{"startTime":2906.688,"endTime":2909.798,"body":"Only partially ready, but we got these"},{"startTime":2906.688,"endTime":2909.798,"body":"other 15 things that are ready, you"},{"startTime":2909.798,"endTime":2911.018,"body":"know, not, don't care about that."},{"startTime":2911.168,"endTime":2914.138,"body":"And then another partner comes"},{"startTime":2911.168,"endTime":2914.138,"body":"in, sponsor, and they go,"},{"startTime":2914.288,"endTime":2915.978,"body":"yeah, okay, whatever, right?"},{"startTime":2916.018,"endTime":2919.298,"body":"But I'm working with"},{"startTime":2916.018,"endTime":2919.298,"body":"Ford or GM or whatever."},{"startTime":2919.628,"endTime":2922.948,"body":"And if you put this feature"},{"startTime":2919.628,"endTime":2922.948,"body":"in, we stand again, XYZ."},{"startTime":2923.833,"endTime":2928.643,"body":"So I don't blame the DevOps team as such,"},{"startTime":2923.833,"endTime":2928.643,"body":"I'm just saying, bring them into the fold."},{"startTime":2928.793,"endTime":2931.713,"body":"Don't make them a separate,"},{"startTime":2928.793,"endTime":2931.713,"body":"like a distant cousin."},{"startTime":2931.723,"endTime":2933.193,"body":"That is where the problems start."},{"startTime":2933.343,"endTime":2935.703,"body":"Well, this is a, it's been a podcast."},{"startTime":2935.853,"endTime":2936.573,"body":"Yeah, it has."},{"startTime":2936.653,"endTime":2939.423,"body":"And this is how you get"},{"startTime":2936.653,"endTime":2939.423,"body":"things done gracefully."},{"startTime":2939.453,"endTime":2939.573,"body":"I"},{"startTime":2939.573,"endTime":2943.343,"body":"mean that like, I think like my takeaway"},{"startTime":2939.573,"endTime":2943.343,"body":"from this podcast is it's, it's even"},{"startTime":2943.343,"endTime":2947.083,"body":"more like we had a few points, especially"},{"startTime":2943.343,"endTime":2947.083,"body":"that one where we talked about earlier."},{"startTime":2947.233,"endTime":2950.713,"body":"Especially the one we talked about"},{"startTime":2947.233,"endTime":2950.713,"body":"with aligning up with the strategies."},{"startTime":2950.713,"endTime":2953.633,"body":"Like it's very difficult to do that"},{"startTime":2950.713,"endTime":2953.633,"body":"when you don't have a product manager."},{"startTime":2953.663,"endTime":2957.383,"body":"I don't, I guess it's not impossible,"},{"startTime":2953.663,"endTime":2957.383,"body":"but I mean, much like continually"},{"startTime":2957.383,"endTime":2960.163,"body":"evolving your team and making"},{"startTime":2957.383,"endTime":2960.163,"body":"sure that, you know, somebody is"},{"startTime":2960.313,"endTime":2962.533,"body":"accountable for continuous improvement."},{"startTime":2962.573,"endTime":2965.263,"body":"I don't think it gets done"},{"startTime":2962.573,"endTime":2965.263,"body":"without assigning it to a person."},{"startTime":2965.263,"endTime":2969.693,"body":"And I just don't, I, when I went into"},{"startTime":2965.263,"endTime":2969.693,"body":"this article I sort of agreed with it."},{"startTime":2970.018,"endTime":2973.428,"body":"Coming out of the other end of the"},{"startTime":2970.018,"endTime":2973.428,"body":"article, I sort of even more agree with"},{"startTime":2973.428,"endTime":2977.483,"body":"it now where like, it's like, just put"},{"startTime":2973.428,"endTime":2977.483,"body":"this, get a product person you probably"},{"startTime":2977.483,"endTime":2981.303,"body":"have somebody on your team already who"},{"startTime":2977.483,"endTime":2981.303,"body":"has the chops to be able to do product"},{"startTime":2981.343,"endTime":2985.293,"body":"manager, just promote them, change"},{"startTime":2981.343,"endTime":2985.293,"body":"their role, you know, even if they're"},{"startTime":2985.293,"endTime":2988.683,"body":"still doing code 25 percent of the time"},{"startTime":2985.293,"endTime":2988.683,"body":"and they do product 75 percent of the"},{"startTime":2988.683,"endTime":2990.193,"body":"time that that's better than nothing."},{"startTime":2990.343,"endTime":2990.603,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2990.643,"endTime":2993.453,"body":"They're not playing the role like"},{"startTime":2990.643,"endTime":2993.453,"body":"they're playing around like they're"},{"startTime":2993.453,"endTime":2996.733,"body":"playing with some Legos or whatever"},{"startTime":2993.453,"endTime":2996.733,"body":"like they're not playing that you're"},{"startTime":2996.733,"endTime":2998.483,"body":"making strategy to their full time job."},{"startTime":2998.593,"endTime":3000.193,"body":"You're transitioning into that role."},{"startTime":3000.493,"endTime":3002.103,"body":"Everyone knows they"},{"startTime":3000.493,"endTime":3002.103,"body":"used to be a developer."},{"startTime":3002.283,"endTime":3002.863,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":3003.203,"endTime":3006.543,"body":"But the point, the point of the article"},{"startTime":3003.203,"endTime":3006.543,"body":"here is your problem should have a product"},{"startTime":3006.563,"endTime":3008.543,"body":"manager, even on infrastructure teams."},{"startTime":3008.893,"endTime":3012.563,"body":"It's probably useful, it's probably"},{"startTime":3008.893,"endTime":3012.563,"body":"helpful, you probably should do it."},{"startTime":3012.873,"endTime":3016.973,"body":"So if you learn nothing else from this"},{"startTime":3012.873,"endTime":3016.973,"body":"podcast, just, just, just, just throw"},{"startTime":3016.973,"endTime":3019.793,"body":"some money at a product manager and have"},{"startTime":3016.973,"endTime":3019.793,"body":"him, have him solve this stuff for you."},{"startTime":3019.868,"endTime":3023.318,"body":"You're not looking for some"},{"startTime":3019.868,"endTime":3023.318,"body":"perfection state, right?"},{"startTime":3023.328,"endTime":3023.648,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3023.658,"endTime":3025.498,"body":"You're looking for something"},{"startTime":3023.658,"endTime":3025.498,"body":"that works for you, and then"},{"startTime":3025.588,"endTime":3027.128,"body":"just evolve that going forward."},{"startTime":3027.128,"endTime":3027.143,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3027.313,"endTime":3028.723,"body":"That, that's really the bottom line."},{"startTime":3028.943,"endTime":3031.353,"body":"Start small and work"},{"startTime":3028.943,"endTime":3031.353,"body":"your way up from there."},{"startTime":3031.573,"endTime":3032.093,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":3032.093,"endTime":3034.233,"body":"And let us know what you"},{"startTime":3032.093,"endTime":3034.233,"body":"think of this this topic."},{"startTime":3034.233,"endTime":3036.323,"body":"And what are the topics"},{"startTime":3034.233,"endTime":3036.323,"body":"you'd like us to talk about."},{"startTime":3036.323,"endTime":3038.633,"body":"And like and subscribe"},{"startTime":3036.323,"endTime":3038.633,"body":"in the button below."},{"startTime":3038.633,"endTime":3039.073,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":3039.143,"endTime":3040.473,"body":"Or whatever, smash that button."},{"startTime":3040.693,"endTime":3042.593,"body":"But don't smash it"},{"startTime":3040.693,"endTime":3042.593,"body":"because it's your laptop."},{"startTime":3042.803,"endTime":3043.683,"body":"Or desktop."},{"startTime":3043.833,"endTime":3044.023,"body":"Yes,"},{"startTime":3044.023,"endTime":3044.593,"body":"yes."},{"startTime":3044.593,"endTime":3046.803,"body":"And if you do don't,"},{"startTime":3044.593,"endTime":3046.803,"body":"don't send us the bill."},{"startTime":3046.853,"endTime":3047.603,"body":"Don't send us the bill."},{"startTime":3047.613,"endTime":3048.663,"body":"We can't, yeah, we, there's no money."},{"startTime":3048.733,"endTime":3049.013,"body":"No."},{"startTime":3049.293,"endTime":3051.133,"body":"That backlog is very steep."},{"startTime":3051.153,"endTime":3051.608,"body":"It's true."}]}