{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":5.049,"endTime":8.439,"body":"We had a conversation at a"},{"startTime":5.049,"endTime":8.439,"body":"networking event very recently"},{"startTime":8.589,"endTime":13.419,"body":"where I said that I don't have a"},{"startTime":8.589,"endTime":13.419,"body":"dedicated QA people at my company."},{"startTime":13.754,"endTime":17.634,"body":"And boy, it looked like I kicked"},{"startTime":13.754,"endTime":17.634,"body":"someone's dog in front of everyone."},{"startTime":17.734,"endTime":19.904,"body":"It was, yeah, that was much"},{"startTime":17.734,"endTime":19.904,"body":"to everyone's astonishment."},{"startTime":19.964,"endTime":20.874,"body":"Whaaat?"},{"startTime":21.024,"endTime":22.374,"body":"It did not go over well."},{"startTime":22.434,"endTime":26.234,"body":"And we're here to talk about why"},{"startTime":22.434,"endTime":26.234,"body":"I don't think it went over well."},{"startTime":26.384,"endTime":28.534,"body":"The setup for this was I told people."},{"startTime":28.684,"endTime":31.674,"body":"I don't have dedicated QA team members."},{"startTime":31.799,"endTime":35.079,"body":"I don't do a dedicated testing phase."},{"startTime":35.204,"endTime":37.684,"body":"The developers on my"},{"startTime":35.204,"endTime":37.684,"body":"team are somewhat senior."},{"startTime":37.834,"endTime":39.814,"body":"They do the full stack of development."},{"startTime":39.964,"endTime":43.344,"body":"They're in total control from the"},{"startTime":39.964,"endTime":43.344,"body":"very beginning of the requirements,"},{"startTime":43.344,"endTime":46.084,"body":"talking to the customers, all"},{"startTime":43.344,"endTime":46.084,"body":"the way through to deployment and"},{"startTime":46.084,"endTime":47.254,"body":"maintenance of the applications."},{"startTime":47.404,"endTime":50.784,"body":"And the team is completely cross"},{"startTime":47.404,"endTime":50.784,"body":"functional, has all the skill I need to"},{"startTime":50.784,"endTime":52.544,"body":"work on everything that I want to work on."},{"startTime":52.694,"endTime":54.454,"body":"And we don't have bugs."},{"startTime":54.514,"endTime":56.664,"body":"We don't have a backlog of bugs,"},{"startTime":54.514,"endTime":56.664,"body":"because when we find a bug..."},{"startTime":56.944,"endTime":59.004,"body":"We either make, we make a"},{"startTime":56.944,"endTime":59.004,"body":"decision to either fix it."},{"startTime":59.004,"endTime":61.504,"body":"And if, and if we want to fix"},{"startTime":59.004,"endTime":61.504,"body":"it, it gets fixed immediately."},{"startTime":61.654,"endTime":63.574,"body":"And if we don't want to"},{"startTime":61.654,"endTime":63.574,"body":"fix it, it gets deferred."},{"startTime":63.724,"endTime":67.584,"body":"So either, either we choose to work"},{"startTime":63.724,"endTime":67.584,"body":"on it as part of a larger enhancement"},{"startTime":67.594,"endTime":71.304,"body":"in the future, or we mark it as"},{"startTime":67.594,"endTime":71.304,"body":"a known issue and it goes away."},{"startTime":71.454,"endTime":74.364,"body":"So that sounds to me like you"},{"startTime":71.454,"endTime":74.364,"body":"have a dream team right there."},{"startTime":74.604,"endTime":78.394,"body":"You have all the ingredients on"},{"startTime":74.604,"endTime":78.394,"body":"your team experience the willingness"},{"startTime":78.394,"endTime":81.234,"body":"and the ownership of the work,"},{"startTime":78.394,"endTime":81.234,"body":"the quality of the work, right?"},{"startTime":81.234,"endTime":84.464,"body":"Say that that was that was the, that"},{"startTime":81.234,"endTime":84.464,"body":"was the that was the attitude of the"},{"startTime":84.464,"endTime":87.854,"body":"group the other night as well of a dream"},{"startTime":84.464,"endTime":87.854,"body":"team, but not a dream team, meaning"},{"startTime":88.129,"endTime":89.429,"body":"a collection of the best players."},{"startTime":89.604,"endTime":93.814,"body":"Working under the best processes,"},{"startTime":89.604,"endTime":93.814,"body":"processes uh, a dream as in you got"},{"startTime":93.814,"endTime":95.454,"body":"to be dreaming to have this going on."},{"startTime":95.674,"endTime":96.894,"body":"That was the way it was perceived."},{"startTime":97.044,"endTime":100.934,"body":"And I was, and I got to admit, I"},{"startTime":97.044,"endTime":100.934,"body":"was kind of taken back a bit by"},{"startTime":101.064,"endTime":106.564,"body":"a group that is focused on agile"},{"startTime":101.064,"endTime":106.564,"body":"software to have that understanding."},{"startTime":106.684,"endTime":110.714,"body":"I think it's it's really What"},{"startTime":106.684,"endTime":110.714,"body":"people know today, right?"},{"startTime":110.864,"endTime":114.404,"body":"And they've always had developers"},{"startTime":110.864,"endTime":114.404,"body":"and testers on their teams."},{"startTime":114.754,"endTime":118.864,"body":"So the paradigm of no"},{"startTime":114.754,"endTime":118.864,"body":"developers test their own stuff."},{"startTime":118.904,"endTime":119.994,"body":"I mean, not necessarily."},{"startTime":120.024,"endTime":122.394,"body":"I'm not talking about a"},{"startTime":120.024,"endTime":122.394,"body":"developer testing their own code."},{"startTime":122.414,"endTime":123.214,"body":"That's not what I'm saying."},{"startTime":123.224,"endTime":123.694,"body":"I'm saying."},{"startTime":123.844,"endTime":127.454,"body":"The dev team tests the"},{"startTime":123.844,"endTime":127.454,"body":"output of their work, right?"},{"startTime":127.474,"endTime":132.664,"body":"And if there's any defects, they own"},{"startTime":127.474,"endTime":132.664,"body":"it, and collectively they discuss that,"},{"startTime":132.744,"endTime":135.664,"body":"presumably with the product folks,"},{"startTime":132.744,"endTime":135.664,"body":"and decide either to fix it or not."},{"startTime":135.664,"endTime":138.009,"body":"If it's if it warrants fixing, do it now."},{"startTime":138.019,"endTime":140.319,"body":"If it doesn't, then put it in the backlog."},{"startTime":140.404,"endTime":142.524,"body":"It's what people, are familiar with."},{"startTime":142.564,"endTime":144.124,"body":"It's what they're accustomed to, right?"},{"startTime":144.124,"endTime":144.864,"body":"You have to have QA."},{"startTime":144.864,"endTime":145.904,"body":"What do you mean you don't have QA?"},{"startTime":145.974,"endTime":146.704,"body":"I get that."},{"startTime":146.924,"endTime":149.954,"body":"Like, out of everything"},{"startTime":146.924,"endTime":149.954,"body":"that we had talked about..."},{"startTime":150.029,"endTime":155.029,"body":"Most people's experience with this"},{"startTime":150.029,"endTime":155.029,"body":"is with QA being a separate team and"},{"startTime":155.029,"endTime":159.469,"body":"things getting handed off to the QA"},{"startTime":155.029,"endTime":159.469,"body":"team and then having a QA phase while"},{"startTime":159.469,"endTime":161.599,"body":"the QA team does some QA things."},{"startTime":161.749,"endTime":163.059,"body":"Yeah, there's some QA magic."},{"startTime":163.329,"endTime":166.749,"body":"So, you mentioned a couple of"},{"startTime":163.329,"endTime":166.749,"body":"words there that I believe are"},{"startTime":166.749,"endTime":167.989,"body":"at the crux of all this, right?"},{"startTime":167.989,"endTime":169.159,"body":"The handoff."},{"startTime":169.309,"endTime":173.509,"body":"So, if a team is brought up to kind"},{"startTime":169.309,"endTime":173.509,"body":"of work in this mode where developers"},{"startTime":173.509,"endTime":177.949,"body":"develop and testers test, you're going"},{"startTime":173.509,"endTime":177.949,"body":"to have a mini waterfall in your sprint"},{"startTime":177.989,"endTime":179.839,"body":"right there, unknowingly or knowingly."},{"startTime":179.989,"endTime":183.889,"body":"And some teams that aren't so good,"},{"startTime":179.989,"endTime":183.889,"body":"what they end up doing inevitably is"},{"startTime":183.889,"endTime":185.989,"body":"say, well, development's complete."},{"startTime":186.139,"endTime":187.369,"body":"Only testing's left."},{"startTime":187.519,"endTime":187.959,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":188.109,"endTime":188.719,"body":"Only."},{"startTime":188.869,"endTime":190.149,"body":"Only testing's left."},{"startTime":190.179,"endTime":193.739,"body":"That is a game that I"},{"startTime":190.179,"endTime":193.739,"body":"remember being played a lot."},{"startTime":193.959,"endTime":197.239,"body":"Which is developers working up to"},{"startTime":193.959,"endTime":197.239,"body":"the last day of the sprint, and then"},{"startTime":197.239,"endTime":200.629,"body":"throwing their hands in the air taking a"},{"startTime":197.239,"endTime":200.629,"body":"victory lap, being like, we're all done!"},{"startTime":200.779,"endTime":201.619,"body":"All done!"},{"startTime":201.829,"endTime":204.869,"body":"If only these QA people"},{"startTime":201.829,"endTime":204.869,"body":"could get things done."},{"startTime":205.019,"endTime":207.609,"body":"Because the QA people consistently,"},{"startTime":205.019,"endTime":207.609,"body":"they're the bottleneck."},{"startTime":207.649,"endTime":208.749,"body":"They consistently..."},{"startTime":208.899,"endTime":211.899,"body":"Have stuff held up at the end of"},{"startTime":208.899,"endTime":211.899,"body":"the sprint and then you know take"},{"startTime":211.899,"endTime":214.789,"body":"it here comes the end of the year"},{"startTime":211.899,"endTime":214.789,"body":"reviews This is what we heard."},{"startTime":214.839,"endTime":215.879,"body":"We heard that."},{"startTime":216.219,"endTime":219.479,"body":"Oh, it's always QA is always the"},{"startTime":216.219,"endTime":219.479,"body":"bottleneck Yeah works up to the"},{"startTime":219.479,"endTime":222.629,"body":"last hour of the sprint throws it"},{"startTime":219.479,"endTime":222.629,"body":"over the fence and then whoever get"},{"startTime":222.639,"endTime":227.029,"body":"whenever the buzzer Rings whoever's"},{"startTime":222.639,"endTime":227.029,"body":"holding the hot potato They're out."},{"startTime":227.039,"endTime":227.469,"body":"You got it."},{"startTime":227.469,"endTime":227.689,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":227.689,"endTime":228.119,"body":"You're out."},{"startTime":228.129,"endTime":231.759,"body":"So I think, yeah, I mean, look to,"},{"startTime":228.129,"endTime":231.759,"body":"to the QA people's defense, right?"},{"startTime":231.909,"endTime":234.529,"body":"They're going to say you didn't"},{"startTime":231.909,"endTime":234.529,"body":"throw things over the wall at us"},{"startTime":234.529,"endTime":235.969,"body":"until the last day of the sprint."},{"startTime":235.979,"endTime":237.299,"body":"So that left us no time."},{"startTime":237.339,"endTime":239.619,"body":"How many times have we"},{"startTime":237.339,"endTime":239.619,"body":"seen that kind of behavior?"},{"startTime":239.619,"endTime":243.759,"body":"I've seen that a lot in teams that"},{"startTime":239.619,"endTime":243.759,"body":"are not quite as mature, right?"},{"startTime":243.769,"endTime":245.039,"body":"They're just formed or whatever."},{"startTime":245.339,"endTime":248.719,"body":"So yes, of course, people"},{"startTime":245.339,"endTime":248.719,"body":"are blaming the QA people."},{"startTime":248.939,"endTime":252.109,"body":"Indirectly or indirectly, there's"},{"startTime":248.939,"endTime":252.109,"body":"a well, development was complete Q."},{"startTime":252.109,"endTime":252.279,"body":"A."},{"startTime":252.319,"endTime":255.059,"body":"We're lagging, and that's maybe"},{"startTime":252.319,"endTime":255.059,"body":"because you know, they don't know what"},{"startTime":255.089,"endTime":256.359,"body":"they're doing, etcetera, etcetera."},{"startTime":256.619,"endTime":259.029,"body":"So coming back to the original"},{"startTime":256.619,"endTime":259.029,"body":"premise of this, right?"},{"startTime":259.049,"endTime":264.489,"body":"If you have this mentality of"},{"startTime":259.049,"endTime":264.489,"body":"bolting on testing and quality at the"},{"startTime":264.489,"endTime":266.129,"body":"end, you're gonna have this issue."},{"startTime":266.279,"endTime":271.594,"body":"On the other hand, what you're describing"},{"startTime":266.279,"endTime":271.594,"body":"is People taking ownership off the"},{"startTime":271.594,"endTime":273.214,"body":"product increment that they're creating."},{"startTime":273.334,"endTime":275.474,"body":"And this isn't just development."},{"startTime":275.794,"endTime":279.904,"body":"I think ultimately it comes down to What"},{"startTime":275.794,"endTime":279.904,"body":"the team's definition of done is not what"},{"startTime":279.904,"endTime":281.814,"body":"the developer's definition of done is."},{"startTime":281.864,"endTime":283.904,"body":"It's the team's definition of done."},{"startTime":284.054,"endTime":286.414,"body":"So when do we complete things, right?"},{"startTime":286.464,"endTime":291.334,"body":"And making things complete means, yeah,"},{"startTime":286.464,"endTime":291.334,"body":"baking the cake and decorating it and"},{"startTime":291.334,"endTime":294.964,"body":"making sure it's, it's, it's cooled down"},{"startTime":291.334,"endTime":294.964,"body":"enough where people can consume it, right?"},{"startTime":295.264,"endTime":298.054,"body":"Oh i, I know something that"},{"startTime":295.264,"endTime":298.054,"body":"came up in that conversation."},{"startTime":298.054,"endTime":301.094,"body":"It just, it just came back to"},{"startTime":298.054,"endTime":301.094,"body":"me like a, like a vivid dream."},{"startTime":301.244,"endTime":306.674,"body":"It was your development team, if they"},{"startTime":301.244,"endTime":306.674,"body":"have to also do testing, there'll"},{"startTime":306.674,"endTime":309.024,"body":"be less efficient developers."},{"startTime":309.174,"endTime":310.264,"body":"I remember that came up."},{"startTime":310.414,"endTime":311.264,"body":"I remember that coming up."},{"startTime":311.264,"endTime":314.614,"body":"And I, and I also remember not"},{"startTime":311.264,"endTime":314.614,"body":"dealing, oh boy, I, like I didn't deal"},{"startTime":314.614,"endTime":316.724,"body":"with any of these points very well."},{"startTime":316.724,"endTime":320.764,"body":"Cause I remember saying like what else are"},{"startTime":316.724,"endTime":320.764,"body":"your development team members going to do?"},{"startTime":320.774,"endTime":323.904,"body":"Are they, are they going to, they're"},{"startTime":320.774,"endTime":323.904,"body":"not going to do any unit testing."},{"startTime":323.904,"endTime":326.914,"body":"They're going to just they're not"},{"startTime":323.904,"endTime":326.914,"body":"going to do any exception handling."},{"startTime":326.914,"endTime":330.464,"body":"They're not going to do any try catch in"},{"startTime":326.914,"endTime":330.464,"body":"when interacting with databases and other"},{"startTime":330.464,"endTime":333.564,"body":"data sources, like they're just going to"},{"startTime":330.464,"endTime":333.564,"body":"assume that everything is up all the time."},{"startTime":333.744,"endTime":335.044,"body":"Like, no, they're not going to do that."},{"startTime":335.094,"endTime":336.604,"body":"They're going to look"},{"startTime":335.094,"endTime":336.604,"body":"to handle exceptions."},{"startTime":336.914,"endTime":338.424,"body":"They're going to look to log things."},{"startTime":338.674,"endTime":341.499,"body":"They're going to there's coding"},{"startTime":338.674,"endTime":341.499,"body":"standards as they already do."},{"startTime":341.509,"endTime":343.839,"body":"It's just, you may, may"},{"startTime":341.509,"endTime":343.839,"body":"not know about them."},{"startTime":343.989,"endTime":348.374,"body":"So what's the problem with basically"},{"startTime":343.989,"endTime":348.374,"body":"changing your coding practices to"},{"startTime":348.374,"endTime":350.784,"body":"integrate tests directly into the code."},{"startTime":350.934,"endTime":354.734,"body":"And, and also, before you respond"},{"startTime":350.934,"endTime":354.734,"body":"to that point, I want to give"},{"startTime":354.744,"endTime":356.724,"body":"you a whole unrelated point."},{"startTime":356.874,"endTime":361.934,"body":"To respond to as well, which is,"},{"startTime":356.874,"endTime":361.934,"body":"I've also seen where QA people"},{"startTime":362.084,"endTime":365.774,"body":"don't have the time that it takes"},{"startTime":362.084,"endTime":365.774,"body":"for them to spin up as developers."},{"startTime":365.924,"endTime":368.214,"body":"I probably really should have"},{"startTime":365.924,"endTime":368.214,"body":"separated this one as a separate point."},{"startTime":368.364,"endTime":371.904,"body":"So they, they, they come up with the"},{"startTime":368.364,"endTime":371.904,"body":"test that they want to have automated."},{"startTime":371.914,"endTime":376.244,"body":"And they will ask the developer, while"},{"startTime":371.914,"endTime":376.244,"body":"they're writing the code, to also develop"},{"startTime":376.264,"endTime":378.874,"body":"the automation in line with the code."},{"startTime":379.144,"endTime":381.974,"body":"You know, it's a, hey, hook"},{"startTime":379.144,"endTime":381.974,"body":"this into, into your code as"},{"startTime":381.974,"endTime":382.924,"body":"you're, as you're writing it."},{"startTime":383.254,"endTime":386.364,"body":"So it's like they're basically"},{"startTime":383.254,"endTime":386.364,"body":"architecting the tests which is just"},{"startTime":386.364,"endTime":389.274,"body":"like, it's just another requirement"},{"startTime":386.364,"endTime":389.274,"body":"quite honestly to me, but I agree."},{"startTime":389.564,"endTime":392.844,"body":"So let's take both of those in"},{"startTime":389.564,"endTime":392.844,"body":"that sequence probably, right?"},{"startTime":392.844,"endTime":394.174,"body":"So developers that."},{"startTime":394.324,"endTime":397.804,"body":"Just write code and"},{"startTime":394.324,"endTime":397.804,"body":"that's all they do, right?"},{"startTime":397.854,"endTime":400.774,"body":"And maybe they do some, a little"},{"startTime":397.854,"endTime":400.774,"body":"bit of that try/catch stuff."},{"startTime":400.774,"endTime":401.554,"body":"I mean, okay."},{"startTime":401.834,"endTime":405.684,"body":"If that's all they're doing, then"},{"startTime":401.834,"endTime":405.684,"body":"I'm afraid you're going to be in that"},{"startTime":405.684,"endTime":409.624,"body":"situation that we started the podcast"},{"startTime":405.684,"endTime":409.624,"body":"with, which is QA has got a heavy burden"},{"startTime":409.624,"endTime":415.084,"body":"to to carry if on the other hand, a"},{"startTime":409.624,"endTime":415.084,"body":"developer is going to start by not"},{"startTime":415.084,"endTime":417.184,"body":"writing code first, but by writing."},{"startTime":417.334,"endTime":422.814,"body":"A test first and then writing just that"},{"startTime":417.334,"endTime":422.814,"body":"little snippet of code that causes test"},{"startTime":422.824,"endTime":425.344,"body":"to fail just that just that little piece."},{"startTime":425.354,"endTime":425.694,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":425.844,"endTime":429.844,"body":"And once that happens, they can move"},{"startTime":425.844,"endTime":429.844,"body":"on to the next piece in the next piece."},{"startTime":430.044,"endTime":435.034,"body":"If they do that, they have really"},{"startTime":430.044,"endTime":435.034,"body":"covered their basis quite well."},{"startTime":435.184,"endTime":439.624,"body":"So I think that, of course, everybody Has"},{"startTime":435.184,"endTime":439.624,"body":"heard about TDD, and that's pretty much"},{"startTime":439.624,"endTime":441.104,"body":"where I'm heading with this stuff, right?"},{"startTime":441.334,"endTime":444.974,"body":"Test driven development, so write the"},{"startTime":441.334,"endTime":444.974,"body":"test first, and then the test drive"},{"startTime":445.124,"endTime":447.354,"body":"development, which is what TDD is."},{"startTime":447.424,"endTime":450.514,"body":"yeah, in order to do that, though,"},{"startTime":447.424,"endTime":450.514,"body":"you need to, I mean, I might be way"},{"startTime":450.514,"endTime":453.269,"body":"off base here, because when I write"},{"startTime":450.514,"endTime":453.269,"body":"something new when I go to interact"},{"startTime":453.269,"endTime":456.764,"body":"with other systems  and I can't be"},{"startTime":453.269,"endTime":456.764,"body":"sure that they're going to hand me back"},{"startTime":456.914,"endTime":459.274,"body":"valid variables or a valid response."},{"startTime":459.284,"endTime":460.534,"body":"Something that's not garbage, basically."},{"startTime":460.609,"endTime":464.619,"body":"I can't always assume that the"},{"startTime":460.609,"endTime":464.619,"body":"transaction is going to be successful."},{"startTime":464.769,"endTime":465.129,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":465.379,"endTime":468.079,"body":"And when I'm doing that, and I'm"},{"startTime":465.379,"endTime":468.079,"body":"writing it for the first time, I'm"},{"startTime":468.079,"endTime":469.739,"body":"very diligent about what I'm doing."},{"startTime":469.889,"endTime":473.229,"body":"It's when I come back and punch"},{"startTime":469.889,"endTime":473.229,"body":"up the functionality later."},{"startTime":473.379,"endTime":476.389,"body":"Oh, this interacts with this one"},{"startTime":473.379,"endTime":476.389,"body":"system, but, but maybe I'm going to"},{"startTime":476.399,"endTime":480.969,"body":"add this new flow where it goes and"},{"startTime":476.399,"endTime":480.969,"body":"looks at some other system first to"},{"startTime":480.979,"endTime":482.909,"body":"get some additional field or whatever."},{"startTime":482.909,"endTime":486.049,"body":"And you know, Oh, I got a new"},{"startTime":482.909,"endTime":486.049,"body":"subscriber or are they new subscriber?"},{"startTime":486.049,"endTime":487.079,"body":"They're already in my database."},{"startTime":487.079,"endTime":489.019,"body":"Now I got to go check my database"},{"startTime":487.079,"endTime":489.019,"body":"to see if they're already"},{"startTime":489.019,"endTime":490.769,"body":"in there before I add them."},{"startTime":490.769,"endTime":493.209,"body":"And if I add them, I give them, I"},{"startTime":490.769,"endTime":493.209,"body":"sent them to a different webpage"},{"startTime":493.209,"endTime":494.469,"body":"that says, Hey, you're already here."},{"startTime":494.784,"endTime":495.894,"body":"Do you forget your password?"},{"startTime":496.114,"endTime":496.954,"body":"Are you lost?"},{"startTime":497.104,"endTime":498.364,"body":"Did you forget your keys?"},{"startTime":498.644,"endTime":500.994,"body":"Like now, now I have a"},{"startTime":498.644,"endTime":500.994,"body":"different path to Matt."},{"startTime":500.994,"endTime":504.064,"body":"So when I'm doing the enhancement,"},{"startTime":500.994,"endTime":504.064,"body":"again, this is just me personally, when"},{"startTime":504.064,"endTime":507.604,"body":"I'm programming, when I'm doing the"},{"startTime":504.064,"endTime":507.604,"body":"enhancement, I'm more apt to forget."},{"startTime":507.754,"endTime":511.834,"body":"About the doing all the exception"},{"startTime":507.754,"endTime":511.834,"body":"work that I did when I did it new."},{"startTime":511.874,"endTime":514.304,"body":"Because like a lot of times when"},{"startTime":511.874,"endTime":514.304,"body":"I'm doing it new from scratch, I'm,"},{"startTime":514.314,"endTime":517.554,"body":"I'm like sketching out a little flow"},{"startTime":514.314,"endTime":517.554,"body":"chart on a little whiteboard and"},{"startTime":517.554,"endTime":518.494,"body":"saying like, Oh, I'm going to go here."},{"startTime":518.494,"endTime":520.824,"body":"I'm going to go here just to help"},{"startTime":518.494,"endTime":520.824,"body":"me keep the logic clear in my head."},{"startTime":520.974,"endTime":525.174,"body":"But if I don't do that same process again,"},{"startTime":520.974,"endTime":525.174,"body":"when I'm bolting on pieces of the system,"},{"startTime":525.474,"endTime":530.184,"body":"as the system gets more complicated,"},{"startTime":525.474,"endTime":530.184,"body":"there is the chance of injecting issues"},{"startTime":530.334,"endTime":532.434,"body":"because I'm not following these standards."},{"startTime":532.484,"endTime":532.754,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":532.754,"endTime":536.294,"body":"So let's unpack that cause I think you've"},{"startTime":532.754,"endTime":536.294,"body":"got three or four points in there, right?"},{"startTime":536.294,"endTime":538.144,"body":"So I, I, I think you're right."},{"startTime":538.164,"endTime":538.814,"body":"If you're."},{"startTime":538.964,"endTime":540.194,"body":"starting from scratch."},{"startTime":540.344,"endTime":545.294,"body":"It's a blank slate and you're more apt"},{"startTime":540.344,"endTime":545.294,"body":"at that point to map out things, right?"},{"startTime":545.314,"endTime":547.804,"body":"Especially the boundary"},{"startTime":545.314,"endTime":547.804,"body":"conditions, things like that."},{"startTime":547.954,"endTime":551.384,"body":"You know, boundary meaning like you're"},{"startTime":547.954,"endTime":551.384,"body":"going out to another subsystem and"},{"startTime":551.384,"endTime":554.814,"body":"coming back and you might look at"},{"startTime":551.384,"endTime":554.814,"body":"The quality and format, et cetera,"},{"startTime":554.824,"endTime":555.804,"body":"of the response you got back."},{"startTime":556.094,"endTime":559.554,"body":"But then going back in and"},{"startTime":556.094,"endTime":559.554,"body":"adding to it, it is very easy"},{"startTime":559.554,"endTime":561.284,"body":"for us to forget about that."},{"startTime":561.544,"endTime":564.764,"body":"And say, this is also, really,"},{"startTime":561.544,"endTime":564.764,"body":"this is also brand new."},{"startTime":564.914,"endTime":566.734,"body":"Because you're now looking"},{"startTime":564.914,"endTime":566.734,"body":"at another subsystem."},{"startTime":566.734,"endTime":569.304,"body":"So why wouldn't you go"},{"startTime":566.734,"endTime":569.304,"body":"through the same exercise?"},{"startTime":569.314,"endTime":570.554,"body":"But human nature, you don't."},{"startTime":570.864,"endTime":574.784,"body":"And where it gets really muddy"},{"startTime":570.864,"endTime":574.784,"body":"is, You talked about you going in"},{"startTime":574.824,"endTime":577.244,"body":"as the original developer, right?"},{"startTime":577.394,"endTime":579.634,"body":"But what if another"},{"startTime":577.394,"endTime":579.634,"body":"developer picks that up?"},{"startTime":579.644,"endTime":582.684,"body":"Now the problem is much more"},{"startTime":579.644,"endTime":582.684,"body":"likely to rear its head, right?"},{"startTime":582.684,"endTime":585.564,"body":"Because they don't know what,"},{"startTime":582.684,"endTime":585.564,"body":"they don't necessarily go back and"},{"startTime":585.564,"endTime":587.024,"body":"look at what the other person did."},{"startTime":587.034,"endTime":589.364,"body":"They just say, we're going to"},{"startTime":587.034,"endTime":589.364,"body":"assume everything works so far."},{"startTime":589.544,"endTime":590.754,"body":"I'm just adding this little piece."},{"startTime":590.904,"endTime":594.564,"body":"Well, it's much more likely there that"},{"startTime":590.904,"endTime":594.564,"body":"they don't do the due diligence, right?"},{"startTime":594.714,"endTime":597.494,"body":"So if you're a developer and you're"},{"startTime":594.714,"endTime":597.494,"body":"picking up somebody else's code."},{"startTime":597.644,"endTime":598.454,"body":"Remember that, right?"},{"startTime":598.464,"endTime":600.274,"body":"That that's one thing"},{"startTime":598.464,"endTime":600.274,"body":"I wanted to pull apart."},{"startTime":600.314,"endTime":603.644,"body":"And the other thread I wanted to"},{"startTime":600.314,"endTime":603.644,"body":"pull on this is you mentioned QA"},{"startTime":603.704,"endTime":605.904,"body":"working with developers here, right?"},{"startTime":606.094,"endTime":610.624,"body":"So sometimes what I hear from people"},{"startTime":606.094,"endTime":610.624,"body":"is what did the testers do the first"},{"startTime":610.624,"endTime":613.204,"body":"few days of the sprint, maybe the first"},{"startTime":610.624,"endTime":613.204,"body":"week of the spring, what do they do?"},{"startTime":613.354,"endTime":615.024,"body":"They're just sitting there"},{"startTime":613.354,"endTime":615.024,"body":"twiddling their thumb."},{"startTime":615.054,"endTime":615.954,"body":"I didn't even think about that."},{"startTime":615.994,"endTime":619.744,"body":"If you're asking the question, I'm"},{"startTime":615.994,"endTime":619.744,"body":"afraid you've got it all wrong."},{"startTime":619.894,"endTime":623.144,"body":"It's been, it's been so long since"},{"startTime":619.894,"endTime":623.144,"body":"I've heard somebody say that."},{"startTime":623.234,"endTime":627.264,"body":"Like not, not, not, not, not ironic"},{"startTime":623.234,"endTime":627.264,"body":"with, with no irony unironically say that"},{"startTime":627.444,"endTime":631.734,"body":"it's been so long since I've been in an"},{"startTime":627.444,"endTime":631.734,"body":"organization that really misunderstood."},{"startTime":631.884,"endTime":636.104,"body":"At such a fundamental level, this"},{"startTime":631.884,"endTime":636.104,"body":"shift left concept has been so long"},{"startTime":636.104,"endTime":639.424,"body":"that I don't even really consider that"},{"startTime":636.104,"endTime":639.424,"body":"anymore that I need to talk to that"},{"startTime":639.424,"endTime":643.029,"body":"point of, what are you doing in the"},{"startTime":639.424,"endTime":643.029,"body":"first couple of days of the sprint?"},{"startTime":643.029,"endTime":646.739,"body":"You, I guess you're doing nothing"},{"startTime":643.029,"endTime":646.739,"body":"like maybe you should go work on"},{"startTime":646.739,"endTime":649.899,"body":"some other project or go find some"},{"startTime":646.739,"endTime":649.899,"body":"documentation or whatever, like go"},{"startTime":649.899,"endTime":651.449,"body":"find some busy work to do basically."},{"startTime":651.699,"endTime":652.849,"body":"That's exactly what happens."},{"startTime":652.859,"endTime":654.259,"body":"So people who don't understand it."},{"startTime":654.259,"endTime":656.109,"body":"I see this all the time,"},{"startTime":654.259,"endTime":656.109,"body":"by the way, it's right."},{"startTime":656.109,"endTime":658.129,"body":"So people say, well, you don't"},{"startTime":656.109,"endTime":658.129,"body":"have anything to test until"},{"startTime":658.129,"endTime":659.179,"body":"the second week of the sprint."},{"startTime":659.379,"endTime":661.349,"body":"So why don't you go work"},{"startTime":659.379,"endTime":661.349,"body":"with that team over there?"},{"startTime":661.499,"endTime":661.879,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":661.889,"endTime":665.739,"body":"That happens all the time because the"},{"startTime":661.889,"endTime":665.739,"body":"focus is really on utilization, right?"},{"startTime":666.029,"endTime":667.529,"body":"And not on improving the process."},{"startTime":667.539,"endTime":671.639,"body":"So if you're doing this in a way that's"},{"startTime":667.539,"endTime":671.639,"body":"effective, let me put it that way your"},{"startTime":671.639,"endTime":677.189,"body":"QA people will be working together with"},{"startTime":671.639,"endTime":677.189,"body":"your developments, developers from day."},{"startTime":677.344,"endTime":678.484,"body":"One, right?"},{"startTime":678.484,"endTime":681.834,"body":"So we hear the terms pair"},{"startTime":678.484,"endTime":681.834,"body":"programming, etcetera."},{"startTime":681.834,"endTime":685.534,"body":"And we think about two developers looking"},{"startTime":681.834,"endTime":685.534,"body":"over each other's shoulders and doing that"},{"startTime":685.534,"endTime":687.364,"body":"kind of doesn't have to be two developers."},{"startTime":687.584,"endTime":690.659,"body":"So quality here is an activity."},{"startTime":690.749,"endTime":691.929,"body":"It is not a role, right?"},{"startTime":692.079,"endTime":693.709,"body":"So if you say, well, your Q."},{"startTime":693.709,"endTime":694.049,"body":"A."},{"startTime":694.089,"endTime":695.859,"body":"And I've got nothing ready yet."},{"startTime":696.129,"endTime":697.009,"body":"I'm a developer."},{"startTime":697.209,"endTime":697.989,"body":"I'm just starting."},{"startTime":698.009,"endTime":700.729,"body":"I know you want to pay a program"},{"startTime":698.009,"endTime":700.729,"body":"with me, but hold back, right?"},{"startTime":700.769,"endTime":702.659,"body":"I'll let you know when"},{"startTime":700.769,"endTime":702.659,"body":"I've got something for you."},{"startTime":702.809,"endTime":703.899,"body":"Yeah, that's not as good."},{"startTime":704.139,"endTime":708.439,"body":"Just say quality people should be working"},{"startTime":704.139,"endTime":708.439,"body":"together with developers from the get go."},{"startTime":708.469,"endTime":711.599,"body":"And that's where this is"},{"startTime":708.469,"endTime":711.599,"body":"the fourth thing now, right?"},{"startTime":711.599,"endTime":715.319,"body":"This is where the quality folks"},{"startTime":711.599,"endTime":715.319,"body":"could say, Hey, can you put this"},{"startTime":715.319,"endTime":716.829,"body":"little piece in there as well?"},{"startTime":716.829,"endTime":719.839,"body":"And that's going to be hooking"},{"startTime":716.829,"endTime":719.839,"body":"into their automation tests, right?"},{"startTime":720.039,"endTime":723.089,"body":"So if you do that from day"},{"startTime":720.039,"endTime":723.089,"body":"one, what will happen when that"},{"startTime":723.089,"endTime":724.779,"body":"little piece of code is finished?"},{"startTime":724.809,"endTime":727.859,"body":"Let's say it's a user story or"},{"startTime":724.809,"endTime":727.859,"body":"whatever PBI when that is finished."},{"startTime":728.009,"endTime":730.939,"body":"The tester is already good to go with."},{"startTime":731.269,"endTime":734.829,"body":"A test case, a test scenario or whatever"},{"startTime":731.269,"endTime":734.829,"body":"else, they're not crafting one from"},{"startTime":734.829,"endTime":737.159,"body":"scratch, which means you're saving time."},{"startTime":737.199,"endTime":740.249,"body":"And then that time compression"},{"startTime":737.199,"endTime":740.249,"body":"magnifies over all of your"},{"startTime":740.249,"endTime":741.389,"body":"user stories in the sprint."},{"startTime":741.499,"endTime":743.179,"body":"So think about that for a minute."},{"startTime":743.329,"endTime":748.739,"body":"Also what gets placed in the logging"},{"startTime":743.329,"endTime":748.739,"body":"usually is under the usually development"},{"startTime":748.749,"endTime":752.199,"body":"has logging standards that they kind"},{"startTime":748.749,"endTime":752.199,"body":"of agree between all the developers,"},{"startTime":752.299,"endTime":753.469,"body":"sort of like a technical standard."},{"startTime":753.619,"endTime":756.079,"body":"But boy, it would be a lot better"},{"startTime":753.619,"endTime":756.079,"body":"for QA people sitting over the"},{"startTime":756.079,"endTime":758.854,"body":"developer's shoulder, it'd be nice to"},{"startTime":756.079,"endTime":758.854,"body":"say Hey, I see in this transaction,"},{"startTime":758.854,"endTime":760.404,"body":"you have these variables coming back."},{"startTime":760.404,"endTime":763.704,"body":"Like, can you just dump them all"},{"startTime":760.404,"endTime":763.704,"body":"into the log as a regular part?"},{"startTime":763.704,"endTime":768.574,"body":"You know, it'd be a lot easier for me to"},{"startTime":763.704,"endTime":768.574,"body":"see all of these items in a log, whereas"},{"startTime":768.574,"endTime":772.044,"body":"maybe they'll just say like, I've seen"},{"startTime":768.574,"endTime":772.044,"body":"like single messages, like transaction"},{"startTime":772.044,"endTime":773.614,"body":"successful well, what does that mean?"},{"startTime":773.614,"endTime":773.864,"body":"Like what?"},{"startTime":774.014,"endTime":775.664,"body":"I need to know what you passed, right?"},{"startTime":775.714,"endTime":777.014,"body":"And then what came back."},{"startTime":777.164,"endTime":778.654,"body":"I need to see it all in the log."},{"startTime":778.804,"endTime":783.444,"body":"Anyway I'm thinking about like specific I"},{"startTime":778.804,"endTime":783.444,"body":"think you're really touching on the coding"},{"startTime":783.444,"endTime":785.364,"body":"standards that should be in place, right?"},{"startTime":785.394,"endTime":788.704,"body":"And those coding standards should"},{"startTime":785.394,"endTime":788.704,"body":"not be developed only by developers."},{"startTime":788.704,"endTime":791.154,"body":"I mean, by all means, engage"},{"startTime":788.704,"endTime":791.154,"body":"everybody on your team."},{"startTime":791.444,"endTime":794.604,"body":"Well, this is, I mean, if we're going"},{"startTime":791.444,"endTime":794.604,"body":"to talk about shift left like shift left"},{"startTime":794.604,"endTime":799.174,"body":"meaning like Do the testing while the"},{"startTime":794.604,"endTime":799.174,"body":"active software development, like I'm,"},{"startTime":799.214,"endTime":803.624,"body":"I'm even I hate the coin phrases that,"},{"startTime":799.214,"endTime":803.624,"body":"cause it sounds so ridiculous, but like,"},{"startTime":803.684,"endTime":807.504,"body":"I'm talking about shift left all the"},{"startTime":803.684,"endTime":807.504,"body":"way back to talking to the customers."},{"startTime":807.654,"endTime":812.634,"body":"I think of all the QA people that when"},{"startTime":807.654,"endTime":812.634,"body":"you intercept bugs through customer"},{"startTime":812.634,"endTime":816.094,"body":"support, like you walk into the"},{"startTime":812.634,"endTime":816.094,"body":"customer support fishbowl or whatever,"},{"startTime":816.094,"endTime":819.344,"body":"I don't know, usually it's considered"},{"startTime":816.094,"endTime":819.344,"body":"a fishbowl or a call center with no"},{"startTime":819.344,"endTime":821.114,"body":"windows, I don't know what you call that."},{"startTime":821.264,"endTime":825.014,"body":"But I got that song in my head, but"},{"startTime":821.264,"endTime":825.014,"body":"anyway, but usually when you walk into"},{"startTime":825.014,"endTime":828.404,"body":"customer support, like you're trying to"},{"startTime":825.014,"endTime":828.404,"body":"help those guys and you, and especially"},{"startTime":828.404,"endTime":830.964,"body":"if you're, you're a partner with them"},{"startTime":828.404,"endTime":830.964,"body":"on a regular basis where they're your"},{"startTime":830.964,"endTime":834.174,"body":"stakeholders and you're talking about"},{"startTime":830.964,"endTime":834.174,"body":"new features and you're helping them"},{"startTime":834.194,"endTime":837.704,"body":"fix bugs and showing them how bugs"},{"startTime":834.194,"endTime":837.704,"body":"are resolved and stuff like that."},{"startTime":838.004,"endTime":840.914,"body":"That's a great place for your"},{"startTime":838.004,"endTime":840.914,"body":"QA people to engage as well."},{"startTime":840.914,"endTime":842.624,"body":"So if, if you're QA people."},{"startTime":842.774,"endTime":846.984,"body":"Talk to customer support more often than"},{"startTime":842.774,"endTime":846.984,"body":"your developers talk to customer support."},{"startTime":847.134,"endTime":850.074,"body":"We're also assuming that departments"},{"startTime":847.134,"endTime":850.074,"body":"talk to other departments at this point."},{"startTime":850.104,"endTime":854.664,"body":"I know, I know, I know, but, but, that's"},{"startTime":850.104,"endTime":854.664,"body":"also a great point where when your QA"},{"startTime":854.664,"endTime":858.424,"body":"people are sitting with your developer"},{"startTime":854.664,"endTime":858.424,"body":"while the, while the, the, the, the"},{"startTime":858.424,"endTime":862.914,"body":"code is being written, they now have"},{"startTime":858.424,"endTime":862.914,"body":"an insight that bridges, not only."},{"startTime":863.029,"endTime":866.489,"body":"How the testing should be done, but also"},{"startTime":863.029,"endTime":866.489,"body":"how customers use the software because"},{"startTime":866.489,"endTime":869.489,"body":"they've sat with customer support,"},{"startTime":866.489,"endTime":869.489,"body":"or maybe they are customer support of"},{"startTime":869.489,"endTime":873.009,"body":"your company because your company is"},{"startTime":869.489,"endTime":873.009,"body":"small, or, or even better, if your QA"},{"startTime":873.009,"endTime":876.169,"body":"people are under the product office."},{"startTime":876.514,"endTime":881.494,"body":"Now there's a whole, a whole nother"},{"startTime":876.514,"endTime":881.494,"body":"level of quality they can provide by"},{"startTime":881.494,"endTime":886.124,"body":"making sure that your, your solution"},{"startTime":881.494,"endTime":886.124,"body":"fits the need and it's like a million"},{"startTime":886.124,"endTime":888.844,"body":"other things that could derail"},{"startTime":886.124,"endTime":888.844,"body":"this podcast in a moment's notice."},{"startTime":889.044,"endTime":893.894,"body":"I think if your QA people have a purview"},{"startTime":889.044,"endTime":893.894,"body":"into how your customers are actually"},{"startTime":893.894,"endTime":898.134,"body":"using the product, you're way ahead of"},{"startTime":893.894,"endTime":898.134,"body":"the game there because it isn't simply"},{"startTime":898.134,"endTime":902.904,"body":"just looking mechanically looking"},{"startTime":898.134,"endTime":902.904,"body":"for, you know Code correctness that"},{"startTime":902.914,"endTime":903.864,"body":"that's not what we're talking about."},{"startTime":903.864,"endTime":907.984,"body":"We're talking about fitness"},{"startTime":903.864,"endTime":907.984,"body":"for purpose off the software."},{"startTime":908.034,"endTime":911.284,"body":"So the software is developed"},{"startTime":908.034,"endTime":911.284,"body":"not to be mechanically correct."},{"startTime":911.294,"endTime":913.344,"body":"It is developed to satisfy customer need."},{"startTime":913.604,"endTime":917.164,"body":"So here's where a You know, a a"},{"startTime":913.604,"endTime":917.164,"body":"a bunch of QA people, if they're"},{"startTime":917.164,"endTime":920.614,"body":"listening to the customers, I think"},{"startTime":917.164,"endTime":920.614,"body":"they can, to your point, really"},{"startTime":920.614,"endTime":922.564,"body":"help bridging that gap, right?"},{"startTime":922.564,"endTime":923.104,"body":"Sure, absolutely."},{"startTime":923.104,"endTime":925.834,"body":"And they can even feed back to"},{"startTime":923.104,"endTime":925.834,"body":"developers and say, yeah, it's"},{"startTime":925.834,"endTime":926.944,"body":"correct, there's nothing wrong."},{"startTime":926.944,"endTime":928.974,"body":"However, that's not how they use it."},{"startTime":929.004,"endTime":931.724,"body":"Well the crazy part about the like"},{"startTime":929.004,"endTime":931.724,"body":"sound really crazy you know, the, the"},{"startTime":931.724,"endTime":935.474,"body":"other kind of wild part about this to"},{"startTime":931.724,"endTime":935.474,"body":"me is like, nobody, nobody would balk"},{"startTime":935.474,"endTime":937.004,"body":"when I say, well, we don't have bas."},{"startTime":938.874,"endTime":942.269,"body":"But, but if you think about it, in"},{"startTime":938.874,"endTime":942.269,"body":"this example where I'm asking my"},{"startTime":942.269,"endTime":947.709,"body":"developers to be QA people, testers,"},{"startTime":942.269,"endTime":947.709,"body":"to take on that role as well."},{"startTime":947.859,"endTime":952.129,"body":"Also, I don't have any dedicated"},{"startTime":947.859,"endTime":952.129,"body":"BAs, so I and the development team"},{"startTime":952.129,"endTime":954.389,"body":"both share the role of being a BA."},{"startTime":954.539,"endTime":959.509,"body":"Sometimes, sometimes I will, I"},{"startTime":954.539,"endTime":959.509,"body":"will write quote requirements."},{"startTime":959.659,"endTime":960.039,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":960.089,"endTime":962.809,"body":"From what I hear customers"},{"startTime":960.089,"endTime":962.809,"body":"want and other users and stuff"},{"startTime":962.809,"endTime":963.729,"body":"like that want in the system."},{"startTime":963.879,"endTime":966.419,"body":"Sometimes the development team"},{"startTime":963.879,"endTime":966.419,"body":"will come to me and say, Hey,"},{"startTime":966.494,"endTime":968.224,"body":"we, we see the need to have this."},{"startTime":968.284,"endTime":971.744,"body":"We're going to write a story about it and"},{"startTime":968.284,"endTime":971.744,"body":"we'll bring it to the next refinement."},{"startTime":971.744,"endTime":972.994,"body":"And I say, that sounds great."},{"startTime":973.204,"endTime":973.714,"body":"Sounds good to me."},{"startTime":973.924,"endTime":977.544,"body":"So we don't have QA, but also"},{"startTime":973.924,"endTime":977.544,"body":"like we don't have BAs either."},{"startTime":977.574,"endTime":978.664,"body":"Like who does that job?"},{"startTime":978.794,"endTime":979.534,"body":"Well, we all do it."},{"startTime":979.684,"endTime":983.074,"body":"In other places I've worked where"},{"startTime":979.684,"endTime":983.074,"body":"we did have the benefit of QA The QA"},{"startTime":983.074,"endTime":988.074,"body":"people end up naturally becoming the"},{"startTime":983.074,"endTime":988.074,"body":"business analysts in the equation"},{"startTime":988.074,"endTime":989.684,"body":"where they, they vet requirements."},{"startTime":989.684,"endTime":992.874,"body":"They talk to customers, they talk"},{"startTime":989.684,"endTime":992.874,"body":"to customer support, they talk to"},{"startTime":992.874,"endTime":994.344,"body":"development, they talk to product."},{"startTime":994.354,"endTime":997.414,"body":"They kind of go between all and"},{"startTime":994.354,"endTime":997.414,"body":"they make sure that the end to end."},{"startTime":997.564,"endTime":1001.354,"body":"The quality is considered end to"},{"startTime":997.564,"endTime":1001.354,"body":"end is what I'm saying that that"},{"startTime":1001.374,"endTime":1005.014,"body":"that basically becomes their job So"},{"startTime":1001.374,"endTime":1005.014,"body":"it's like they're sort of doing QA."},{"startTime":1005.174,"endTime":1006.454,"body":"They're sort of doing development."},{"startTime":1006.504,"endTime":1010.389,"body":"They're sort of doing testing They're"},{"startTime":1006.504,"endTime":1010.389,"body":"sort of doing the BA job But  in order to"},{"startTime":1010.389,"endTime":1015.779,"body":"ensure quality you've got to do all those"},{"startTime":1010.389,"endTime":1015.779,"body":"jobs You know, or at least interact with"},{"startTime":1015.779,"endTime":1016.989,"body":"all those jobs, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1017.139,"endTime":1017.789,"body":"Yeah, I do."},{"startTime":1017.819,"endTime":1022.099,"body":"So, to me, that's the"},{"startTime":1017.819,"endTime":1022.099,"body":"difference between QC and QA."},{"startTime":1022.099,"endTime":1024.759,"body":"You know, QC folks are simply"},{"startTime":1022.099,"endTime":1024.759,"body":"checking for correctness."},{"startTime":1024.759,"endTime":1025.429,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1025.639,"endTime":1029.689,"body":"And what you're describing is building"},{"startTime":1025.639,"endTime":1029.689,"body":"in quality from the beginning."},{"startTime":1029.759,"endTime":1031.439,"body":"I mean, that's gotta be the way to go."},{"startTime":1031.489,"endTime":1034.189,"body":"Well, I mean, to really, to"},{"startTime":1031.489,"endTime":1034.189,"body":"really really piss people off."},{"startTime":1034.264,"endTime":1037.404,"body":"Like to, to really"},{"startTime":1034.264,"endTime":1037.404,"body":"exacerbate the situation."},{"startTime":1037.504,"endTime":1040.264,"body":"If they can do what they're doing"},{"startTime":1037.504,"endTime":1040.264,"body":"for the customer and the requirements"},{"startTime":1040.264,"endTime":1043.414,"body":"and the, the testing and the,"},{"startTime":1040.264,"endTime":1043.414,"body":"the basically the coding and the"},{"startTime":1043.414,"endTime":1044.634,"body":"delivery and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1044.784,"endTime":1048.284,"body":"Boy, think about what they can do also"},{"startTime":1044.784,"endTime":1048.284,"body":"when like you inject the process and"},{"startTime":1048.284,"endTime":1054.324,"body":"continuous improvement of your work"},{"startTime":1048.284,"endTime":1054.324,"body":"processes into this cycle as well to say,"},{"startTime":1054.324,"endTime":1058.974,"body":"Hey, if there's inefficient communication"},{"startTime":1054.324,"endTime":1058.974,"body":"between teams, or if there's inefficient"},{"startTime":1058.974,"endTime":1063.834,"body":"work methods that are, we're bringing"},{"startTime":1058.974,"endTime":1063.834,"body":"employed bring that up and let's deal with"},{"startTime":1063.834,"endTime":1068.114,"body":"that QA people to, Go study Kanban and"},{"startTime":1063.834,"endTime":1068.114,"body":"go study different software development"},{"startTime":1068.424,"endTime":1072.584,"body":"methodologies and, and, and, and look"},{"startTime":1068.424,"endTime":1072.584,"body":"at the, what you're doing the work"},{"startTime":1072.584,"endTime":1073.944,"body":"processes that the teams are engaged."},{"startTime":1073.994,"endTime":1077.714,"body":"What I'm saying is if you're going to"},{"startTime":1073.994,"endTime":1077.714,"body":"be in the role of quality assurance, and"},{"startTime":1077.714,"endTime":1082.694,"body":"you want to assure quality, like quality"},{"startTime":1077.714,"endTime":1082.694,"body":"doesn't stop at one phase quality, you"},{"startTime":1082.694,"endTime":1087.674,"body":"draw a line again, or draw a line around"},{"startTime":1082.694,"endTime":1087.674,"body":"everything from the from the very first"},{"startTime":1087.674,"endTime":1089.589,"body":"moment that the idea of a requirement."},{"startTime":1089.589,"endTime":1089.639,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1089.789,"endTime":1094.779,"body":"Pops into someone's brain that's included"},{"startTime":1089.789,"endTime":1094.779,"body":"all the way to when it's delivered to a"},{"startTime":1094.779,"endTime":1098.049,"body":"customer and a customer uses it and gives"},{"startTime":1094.779,"endTime":1098.049,"body":"you feedback how they like it or not and"},{"startTime":1098.059,"endTime":1101.999,"body":"beyond and beyond like all that that you"},{"startTime":1098.059,"endTime":1101.999,"body":"have to draw a circle around all that"},{"startTime":1101.999,"endTime":1107.129,"body":"which is a very very expensive circle and"},{"startTime":1101.999,"endTime":1107.129,"body":"your QA people can't be afraid that to"},{"startTime":1107.129,"endTime":1112.289,"body":"get blocked in any one place in that and"},{"startTime":1107.129,"endTime":1112.289,"body":"also if you build organizational blocks to"},{"startTime":1112.289,"endTime":1118.269,"body":"keep them out of any one place now you're"},{"startTime":1112.289,"endTime":1118.269,"body":"impacting quality with with with with a"},{"startTime":1118.419,"endTime":1123.044,"body":"You're building artificial dams"},{"startTime":1118.419,"endTime":1123.044,"body":"to stop the quality at some point."},{"startTime":1123.184,"endTime":1124.154,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1124.154,"endTime":1124.724,"body":"That's correct."},{"startTime":1124.734,"endTime":1127.794,"body":"You're promoting siloism"},{"startTime":1124.734,"endTime":1127.794,"body":"basically at some point, right?"},{"startTime":1127.824,"endTime":1129.204,"body":"And that's not a good thing."},{"startTime":1129.204,"endTime":1131.924,"body":"So oftentimes it's perception, right?"},{"startTime":1131.924,"endTime":1135.534,"body":"So people think of quality as"},{"startTime":1131.924,"endTime":1135.534,"body":"somebody who inspects it at the end."},{"startTime":1135.544,"endTime":1136.914,"body":"And we're talking about people."},{"startTime":1137.064,"endTime":1140.334,"body":"We're talking about a paradigm where"},{"startTime":1137.064,"endTime":1140.334,"body":"quality isn't inspected for At any"},{"startTime":1140.334,"endTime":1144.004,"body":"time, because you don't have to inspect"},{"startTime":1140.334,"endTime":1144.004,"body":"for it if you build it in, right?"},{"startTime":1144.004,"endTime":1148.504,"body":"So it starts, like you said, for the"},{"startTime":1144.004,"endTime":1148.504,"body":"full gamut after delivery of whatever"},{"startTime":1148.654,"endTime":1153.144,"body":"the deliverable was to the customer,"},{"startTime":1148.654,"endTime":1153.144,"body":"they still watch that for a while, right?"},{"startTime":1153.144,"endTime":1156.464,"body":"They work with the customer"},{"startTime":1153.144,"endTime":1156.464,"body":"to figure out how else, how"},{"startTime":1156.464,"endTime":1158.084,"body":"could it have been made better?"},{"startTime":1158.184,"endTime":1161.444,"body":"I mean, I, I will, I'll tell you right"},{"startTime":1158.184,"endTime":1161.444,"body":"now, I'll go out on a limb right here."},{"startTime":1161.554,"endTime":1164.034,"body":"And actually this, this is a"},{"startTime":1161.554,"endTime":1164.034,"body":"question I should bring to a"},{"startTime":1164.034,"endTime":1165.714,"body":"future networking event near you."},{"startTime":1165.874,"endTime":1170.634,"body":"In your columns on your development board,"},{"startTime":1165.874,"endTime":1170.634,"body":"where you have these To do, development"},{"startTime":1170.634,"endTime":1174.224,"body":"done, begin QA, all these little"},{"startTime":1170.634,"endTime":1174.224,"body":"columns that I've seen, all these little"},{"startTime":1174.234,"endTime":1175.924,"body":"games I've seen people play over time."},{"startTime":1175.924,"endTime":1180.364,"body":"You know, in the staging environment,"},{"startTime":1175.924,"endTime":1180.364,"body":"in the test environment done."},{"startTime":1180.424,"endTime":1181.784,"body":"I call them all wastes, but anyway."},{"startTime":1181.784,"endTime":1185.604,"body":"Waiting for my other team to throw it over"},{"startTime":1181.784,"endTime":1185.604,"body":"the fence to some environment or whatever."},{"startTime":1185.969,"endTime":1186.859,"body":"when you have all those columns."},{"startTime":1187.009,"endTime":1188.999,"body":"Boy I have I've seen it before."},{"startTime":1188.999,"endTime":1189.839,"body":"I've seen it on one team."},{"startTime":1189.909,"endTime":1197.464,"body":"Exactly one team that has a column that"},{"startTime":1189.909,"endTime":1197.464,"body":"says verifying with the user but it"},{"startTime":1197.464,"endTime":1200.884,"body":"basically it comes after the done column"},{"startTime":1197.464,"endTime":1200.884,"body":"done, meaning development is finished"},{"startTime":1201.034,"endTime":1205.894,"body":"and now product when they do the product"},{"startTime":1201.034,"endTime":1205.894,"body":"demo and they do a period of follow up"},{"startTime":1205.904,"endTime":1209.834,"body":"with the customer afterwards to make"},{"startTime":1205.904,"endTime":1209.834,"body":"sure that what they just pushed out into"},{"startTime":1209.834,"endTime":1214.014,"body":"production meets the customer's need"},{"startTime":1209.834,"endTime":1214.014,"body":"and the customer is satisfied with it."},{"startTime":1214.344,"endTime":1219.204,"body":"There is a, a person to person, it's"},{"startTime":1214.344,"endTime":1219.204,"body":"like not asynchronous, like send it"},{"startTime":1219.204,"endTime":1220.914,"body":"through the mail, write your congressman."},{"startTime":1221.064,"endTime":1222.674,"body":"carrier pigeon, a face to face."},{"startTime":1222.974,"endTime":1225.344,"body":"Do you like, what do you"},{"startTime":1222.974,"endTime":1225.344,"body":"like about this feature?"},{"startTime":1225.454,"endTime":1227.304,"body":"Where do you think we went wrong?"},{"startTime":1227.464,"endTime":1229.884,"body":"What do you think we can"},{"startTime":1227.464,"endTime":1229.884,"body":"improve conversation?"},{"startTime":1230.094,"endTime":1234.344,"body":"And I I've very rarely seen"},{"startTime":1230.094,"endTime":1234.344,"body":"people add that add that column."},{"startTime":1234.684,"endTime":1238.754,"body":"After the done column, because the"},{"startTime":1234.684,"endTime":1238.754,"body":"done, done means like development team."},{"startTime":1239.014,"endTime":1239.234,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1239.254,"endTime":1240.454,"body":"Wash their hands, their hands of it."},{"startTime":1240.514,"endTime":1243.624,"body":"And they, and they're, they ride off into"},{"startTime":1240.514,"endTime":1243.624,"body":"the sunset to deal with the next fire."},{"startTime":1243.624,"endTime":1246.464,"body":"That is because they, cause they're"},{"startTime":1243.624,"endTime":1246.464,"body":"all judged on quote efficiency."},{"startTime":1246.664,"endTime":1250.354,"body":"If we build a million features for"},{"startTime":1246.664,"endTime":1250.354,"body":"our customers and our customers"},{"startTime":1250.624,"endTime":1253.524,"body":"tell us all these features are"},{"startTime":1250.624,"endTime":1253.524,"body":"unusable, they're all crap."},{"startTime":1253.674,"endTime":1255.264,"body":"And this was not my original problem."},{"startTime":1255.414,"endTime":1256.134,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1256.144,"endTime":1256.804,"body":"Have we missed."},{"startTime":1256.954,"endTime":1257.634,"body":"Oh, boy."},{"startTime":1257.704,"endTime":1258.314,"body":"Like we made it."},{"startTime":1258.464,"endTime":1260.104,"body":"We've missed Bigley."},{"startTime":1260.644,"endTime":1261.064,"body":"Bigley."},{"startTime":1261.524,"endTime":1262.114,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1262.144,"endTime":1263.034,"body":"We use that."},{"startTime":1263.034,"endTime":1263.594,"body":"Use that."},{"startTime":1263.594,"endTime":1264.704,"body":"Bigley."},{"startTime":1264.754,"endTime":1265.594,"body":"We missed Bigley."},{"startTime":1265.624,"endTime":1267.064,"body":"And I'm gonna use another one."},{"startTime":1267.064,"endTime":1267.714,"body":"We use all the time."},{"startTime":1267.864,"endTime":1270.714,"body":"Keep that resume updated because"},{"startTime":1267.864,"endTime":1270.714,"body":"you're now circling a drain as a"},{"startTime":1270.714,"endTime":1272.754,"body":"company, let alone your own unit."},{"startTime":1272.904,"endTime":1273.544,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1273.544,"endTime":1274.224,"body":"Couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":1274.264,"endTime":1277.684,"body":"I haven't, by the way, you're lucky"},{"startTime":1274.264,"endTime":1277.684,"body":"that you've seen one team do that."},{"startTime":1277.724,"endTime":1279.124,"body":"I've not seen any team do that."},{"startTime":1279.454,"endTime":1282.704,"body":"I have seen Teams pay lip"},{"startTime":1279.454,"endTime":1282.704,"body":"service to this, right?"},{"startTime":1282.704,"endTime":1286.574,"body":"So they have people that they put"},{"startTime":1282.704,"endTime":1286.574,"body":"in the role of titles like customer"},{"startTime":1286.574,"endTime":1290.734,"body":"success, and then they'll just,"},{"startTime":1286.574,"endTime":1290.734,"body":"they'll just contact the customer once"},{"startTime":1290.734,"endTime":1292.764,"body":"in a while and say, yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1292.794,"endTime":1292.984,"body":"So."},{"startTime":1293.134,"endTime":1296.174,"body":"So I think you nailed it when"},{"startTime":1293.134,"endTime":1296.174,"body":"you said face to face, right?"},{"startTime":1296.404,"endTime":1300.104,"body":"Send an email and say, on"},{"startTime":1296.404,"endTime":1300.104,"body":"a scale of 1 to 10, right?"},{"startTime":1300.144,"endTime":1304.084,"body":"Please rate on our you know,"},{"startTime":1300.144,"endTime":1304.084,"body":"whatever the survey is monkey"},{"startTime":1304.164,"endTime":1305.354,"body":"survey, whatever it is, right?"},{"startTime":1305.634,"endTime":1306.234,"body":"Survey monkey."},{"startTime":1306.454,"endTime":1307.714,"body":"How do you, monkey survey is better."},{"startTime":1307.864,"endTime":1308.354,"body":"Chimp survey."},{"startTime":1308.504,"endTime":1309.879,"body":"Just say how do you like it?"},{"startTime":1310.039,"endTime":1314.109,"body":"You love it or you thought it"},{"startTime":1310.039,"endTime":1314.109,"body":"was great versus it's okay."},{"startTime":1314.309,"endTime":1317.559,"body":"There is never a scale"},{"startTime":1314.309,"endTime":1317.559,"body":"to say it sucked bigly."},{"startTime":1317.739,"endTime":1321.229,"body":"They missed that out on purpose"},{"startTime":1317.739,"endTime":1321.229,"body":"so they don't get the feedback."},{"startTime":1321.259,"endTime":1322.999,"body":"They only get the"},{"startTime":1321.259,"endTime":1322.999,"body":"feedback they're seeking."},{"startTime":1323.149,"endTime":1326.639,"body":"I've seen that huge"},{"startTime":1323.149,"endTime":1326.639,"body":"miss, by the way, right?"},{"startTime":1326.639,"endTime":1327.269,"body":"Huge miss."},{"startTime":1327.529,"endTime":1331.249,"body":"You're just kidding yourself"},{"startTime":1327.529,"endTime":1331.249,"body":"until another company comes along."},{"startTime":1331.399,"endTime":1334.169,"body":"Who really does it right,"},{"startTime":1331.399,"endTime":1334.169,"body":"and then, yep, you're toast."},{"startTime":1334.244,"endTime":1336.174,"body":"we talked a little about paraprogramming."},{"startTime":1336.324,"endTime":1340.124,"body":"We did not, we, and we touched on"},{"startTime":1336.324,"endTime":1340.124,"body":"cross functionality, but we didn't"},{"startTime":1340.134,"endTime":1341.494,"body":"dig into cross functionality."},{"startTime":1341.724,"endTime":1345.064,"body":"I, I, I think like one of the"},{"startTime":1341.724,"endTime":1345.064,"body":"reasons that I told the, the group,"},{"startTime":1345.144,"endTime":1349.514,"body":"I said, well, most of my most of my"},{"startTime":1345.144,"endTime":1349.514,"body":"developers are not, they're not junior."},{"startTime":1349.514,"endTime":1351.494,"body":"I don't think I have junior"},{"startTime":1349.514,"endTime":1351.494,"body":"developers, honestly."},{"startTime":1351.704,"endTime":1354.004,"body":"I was like, well, the majority of my"},{"startTime":1351.704,"endTime":1354.004,"body":"team are senior developers, even if"},{"startTime":1354.004,"endTime":1358.274,"body":"their job title is not senior developers,"},{"startTime":1354.004,"endTime":1358.274,"body":"they are senior full stack developers."},{"startTime":1358.394,"endTime":1360.634,"body":"So like, obviously the company pays."},{"startTime":1360.784,"endTime":1364.844,"body":"For senior full stack developers but"},{"startTime":1360.784,"endTime":1364.844,"body":"if you have a, if you have a staff of"},{"startTime":1364.844,"endTime":1369.344,"body":"junior developers or you're just going"},{"startTime":1364.844,"endTime":1369.344,"body":"to staffing firms and getting warm"},{"startTime":1369.344,"endTime":1374.094,"body":"bodies off the street, or you're going"},{"startTime":1369.344,"endTime":1374.094,"body":"to whatever offshoring and, and cutting"},{"startTime":1374.094,"endTime":1377.524,"body":"your offshore firm every six months"},{"startTime":1374.094,"endTime":1377.524,"body":"because you're constantly in search"},{"startTime":1377.534,"endTime":1381.154,"body":"of a cheaper solution because you got"},{"startTime":1377.534,"endTime":1381.154,"body":"to save a couple cents or whatever."},{"startTime":1381.324,"endTime":1383.704,"body":"I could see why this is"},{"startTime":1381.324,"endTime":1383.704,"body":"perceived as being crazy."},{"startTime":1383.854,"endTime":1386.434,"body":"If this is your team, my"},{"startTime":1383.854,"endTime":1386.434,"body":"team is all junior people."},{"startTime":1386.514,"endTime":1387.604,"body":"They're not cross functional."},{"startTime":1387.794,"endTime":1389.244,"body":"The developers wouldn't know how to test."},{"startTime":1389.274,"endTime":1391.564,"body":"Even if you sat them down and"},{"startTime":1389.274,"endTime":1391.564,"body":"try, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1391.714,"endTime":1393.854,"body":"That's just not the"},{"startTime":1391.714,"endTime":1393.854,"body":"world in which we live."},{"startTime":1394.004,"endTime":1394.754,"body":"Totally get it."},{"startTime":1395.054,"endTime":1396.324,"body":"I totally would understand."},{"startTime":1396.504,"endTime":1400.104,"body":"And I would say, well, maybe what I'm"},{"startTime":1396.504,"endTime":1400.104,"body":"doing is not for you with the current"},{"startTime":1400.104,"endTime":1403.224,"body":"way that your team, given the current way"},{"startTime":1400.104,"endTime":1403.224,"body":"that you're, I think the same thing about"},{"startTime":1403.274,"endTime":1405.514,"body":"if you, if you cannot control, if, if."},{"startTime":1405.664,"endTime":1407.704,"body":"Churn on your team is out of control."},{"startTime":1407.824,"endTime":1410.704,"body":"Also, like you're losing"},{"startTime":1407.824,"endTime":1410.704,"body":"people every other month."},{"startTime":1410.984,"endTime":1411.294,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1411.434,"endTime":1411.914,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1412.064,"endTime":1413.904,"body":"Just because, I don't know,"},{"startTime":1412.064,"endTime":1413.904,"body":"whatever other reasons."},{"startTime":1414.054,"endTime":1414.514,"body":"Same problem."},{"startTime":1414.524,"endTime":1415.384,"body":"You have the same problem."},{"startTime":1415.384,"endTime":1418.394,"body":"If you can't keep a solid team,"},{"startTime":1415.384,"endTime":1418.394,"body":"you can't do what I'm doing."},{"startTime":1418.544,"endTime":1422.414,"body":"But ultimately, both of those scenarios"},{"startTime":1418.544,"endTime":1422.414,"body":"come down to one thing, right?"},{"startTime":1422.594,"endTime":1424.134,"body":"And that is economics."},{"startTime":1424.174,"endTime":1425.584,"body":"You're trying to save money."},{"startTime":1425.699,"endTime":1426.979,"body":"... You get what you pay for."},{"startTime":1427.129,"endTime":1428.579,"body":"That's really what it boils down to."},{"startTime":1428.849,"endTime":1429.149,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1429.149,"endTime":1433.109,"body":"So you're going to save some money"},{"startTime":1429.149,"endTime":1433.109,"body":"because this other vendor offshore"},{"startTime":1433.109,"endTime":1438.739,"body":"vendor has bid a few dollars less"},{"startTime":1433.109,"endTime":1438.739,"body":"per hour for their resources."},{"startTime":1438.889,"endTime":1439.669,"body":"So you go with them."},{"startTime":1439.909,"endTime":1441.599,"body":"And you're saving money."},{"startTime":1441.839,"endTime":1445.224,"body":"And if your company prizes"},{"startTime":1441.839,"endTime":1445.224,"body":"What you're doing, right?"},{"startTime":1445.224,"endTime":1448.114,"body":"Saving them money and you"},{"startTime":1445.224,"endTime":1448.114,"body":"get promoted, then fine."},{"startTime":1448.124,"endTime":1451.744,"body":"But you know that that's exactly"},{"startTime":1448.124,"endTime":1451.744,"body":"what happens in that scenario."},{"startTime":1451.764,"endTime":1456.264,"body":"You're going to have a situation that"},{"startTime":1451.764,"endTime":1456.264,"body":"leads to customers not being happy in the"},{"startTime":1456.264,"endTime":1458.764,"body":"end because the delivery isn't really."},{"startTime":1459.064,"endTime":1460.584,"body":"Up to their expectations."},{"startTime":1460.904,"endTime":1464.304,"body":"I mean, I would say that whole"},{"startTime":1460.904,"endTime":1464.304,"body":"customer validation bit after the"},{"startTime":1464.304,"endTime":1468.074,"body":"fact and the whole, like bringing the"},{"startTime":1464.304,"endTime":1468.074,"body":"customer in on the first step and on"},{"startTime":1468.074,"endTime":1471.344,"body":"the last step and you know, so that"},{"startTime":1468.074,"endTime":1471.344,"body":"the customer is always involved."},{"startTime":1471.494,"endTime":1473.264,"body":"The problem is getting out of control."},{"startTime":1473.339,"endTime":1478.179,"body":"When you have offshore teams, especially"},{"startTime":1473.339,"endTime":1478.179,"body":"offshore teams of junior team members."},{"startTime":1478.329,"endTime":1481.629,"body":"Boy, I just doubled down right there"},{"startTime":1478.329,"endTime":1481.629,"body":"because now your company probably"},{"startTime":1481.629,"endTime":1484.819,"body":"is saying like, Oh, well you, you"},{"startTime":1481.629,"endTime":1484.819,"body":"just get with the architect or"},{"startTime":1484.829,"endTime":1488.849,"body":"you get with the lead developers"},{"startTime":1484.829,"endTime":1488.849,"body":"here in house onshore or whatever."},{"startTime":1489.019,"endTime":1491.369,"body":"And you guys write all the"},{"startTime":1489.019,"endTime":1491.369,"body":"stories and just send them over"},{"startTime":1491.369,"endTime":1492.609,"body":"to the development team to do."},{"startTime":1492.759,"endTime":1494.919,"body":"You know, well, we'll do all"},{"startTime":1492.759,"endTime":1494.919,"body":"the requirements over here in a"},{"startTime":1494.919,"endTime":1498.659,"body":"corner and then just distribute"},{"startTime":1494.919,"endTime":1498.659,"body":"them to the, to the code monkeys."},{"startTime":1498.749,"endTime":1499.489,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1499.499,"endTime":1500.999,"body":"And the customers know where to be found."},{"startTime":1501.029,"endTime":1501.269,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1501.299,"endTime":1501.689,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1501.779,"endTime":1503.799,"body":"I've seen that way too often."},{"startTime":1504.079,"endTime":1505.919,"body":"And people say, well,"},{"startTime":1504.079,"endTime":1505.919,"body":"this is what they need."},{"startTime":1506.099,"endTime":1508.459,"body":"How do you know that's what they need?"},{"startTime":1508.609,"endTime":1508.929,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1508.949,"endTime":1510.399,"body":"Well, that's what they need."},{"startTime":1510.459,"endTime":1511.669,"body":"We, we know what they need."},{"startTime":1511.819,"endTime":1514.839,"body":"No, you don't know what they need"},{"startTime":1511.819,"endTime":1514.839,"body":"because you haven't spoken to them."},{"startTime":1514.849,"endTime":1517.339,"body":"The old we know of product management."},{"startTime":1517.484,"endTime":1518.474,"body":"Yes, exactly."},{"startTime":1518.804,"endTime":1519.294,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1519.444,"endTime":1523.304,"body":"I want to bring us back to this whole"},{"startTime":1519.444,"endTime":1523.304,"body":"whole topic of you know, testers, right?"},{"startTime":1523.614,"endTime":1526.584,"body":"So here's here's another"},{"startTime":1523.614,"endTime":1526.584,"body":"thing that I see all the time."},{"startTime":1526.584,"endTime":1528.944,"body":"People saying testers are testers."},{"startTime":1529.114,"endTime":1529.974,"body":"They don't write code."},{"startTime":1530.124,"endTime":1532.224,"body":"Developers don't test, right?"},{"startTime":1532.514,"endTime":1536.264,"body":"They develop and Testers are"},{"startTime":1532.514,"endTime":1536.264,"body":"writing scripts and stuff, but these"},{"startTime":1536.264,"endTime":1537.894,"body":"guys are writing the actual code."},{"startTime":1538.194,"endTime":1540.854,"body":"So I'm thinking to myself,"},{"startTime":1538.194,"endTime":1540.854,"body":"what are these guys doing?"},{"startTime":1540.864,"endTime":1543.704,"body":"This is shooting rockets in"},{"startTime":1540.864,"endTime":1543.704,"body":"the space, and these guys are"},{"startTime":1543.704,"endTime":1544.794,"body":"actually landing on the moon."},{"startTime":1544.864,"endTime":1549.894,"body":"It's not like that, that the technology"},{"startTime":1544.864,"endTime":1549.894,"body":"that they're using is way more"},{"startTime":1549.894,"endTime":1551.474,"body":"similar than it is different, right?"},{"startTime":1551.704,"endTime":1556.434,"body":"So using some of these automation"},{"startTime":1551.704,"endTime":1556.434,"body":"tools, it isn't beyond the realms"},{"startTime":1556.434,"endTime":1559.134,"body":"of developers to learn that, right?"},{"startTime":1559.284,"endTime":1561.374,"body":"So I think where I'm"},{"startTime":1559.284,"endTime":1561.374,"body":"going with this is the."},{"startTime":1561.724,"endTime":1566.334,"body":"Testers among you should be open and"},{"startTime":1561.724,"endTime":1566.334,"body":"embrace your developers and say, these"},{"startTime":1566.334,"endTime":1570.064,"body":"are the tools we use, let me show you"},{"startTime":1566.334,"endTime":1570.064,"body":"how we use it and they can use it too."},{"startTime":1570.194,"endTime":1573.214,"body":"We, we use it, not us and them."},{"startTime":1573.254,"endTime":1573.474,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1573.564,"endTime":1573.854,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1574.194,"endTime":1578.354,"body":"If you do that, you have a, you have a"},{"startTime":1574.194,"endTime":1578.354,"body":"good chance of having a developer say,"},{"startTime":1578.564,"endTime":1579.924,"body":"say to you, well, let me write this."},{"startTime":1579.944,"endTime":1583.504,"body":"And then I might actually trigger"},{"startTime":1579.944,"endTime":1583.504,"body":"your test scenario immediately"},{"startTime":1583.644,"endTime":1584.854,"body":"through the pipeline or whatever."},{"startTime":1585.114,"endTime":1588.294,"body":"So there is that, but I"},{"startTime":1585.114,"endTime":1588.294,"body":"don't see that very often."},{"startTime":1588.459,"endTime":1592.329,"body":"Unfortunately, I see the siloism"},{"startTime":1588.459,"endTime":1592.329,"body":"all over the place, largely"},{"startTime":1592.339,"endTime":1593.949,"body":"because of budgeting reasons."},{"startTime":1593.989,"endTime":1597.709,"body":"They say developers are budgeted this"},{"startTime":1593.989,"endTime":1597.709,"body":"way and testers are budgeted that way."},{"startTime":1597.859,"endTime":1601.589,"body":"And you mentioned earlier, ideal"},{"startTime":1597.859,"endTime":1601.589,"body":"scenario would be that they fall under"},{"startTime":1601.619,"endTime":1603.429,"body":"product testers, at least, right?"},{"startTime":1603.689,"endTime":1604.619,"body":"Maybe even developers."},{"startTime":1604.619,"endTime":1604.979,"body":"Why not?"},{"startTime":1605.079,"endTime":1606.299,"body":"You're developing a product."},{"startTime":1606.409,"endTime":1608.479,"body":"You're not developing a"},{"startTime":1606.409,"endTime":1608.479,"body":"project at the end of the day."},{"startTime":1608.629,"endTime":1610.129,"body":"Again, I haven't seen that."},{"startTime":1610.279,"endTime":1611.639,"body":"Yeah, all that often"},{"startTime":1611.789,"endTime":1617.499,"body":"well that you know it's like seeing"},{"startTime":1611.789,"endTime":1617.499,"body":"the seeing the roadblocks of who people"},{"startTime":1617.499,"endTime":1621.099,"body":"should work for and report through"},{"startTime":1617.499,"endTime":1621.099,"body":"I'm gonna pull the steering wheel and"},{"startTime":1621.279,"endTime":1622.699,"body":"go around those roadblocks  because"},{"startTime":1622.699,"endTime":1627.159,"body":"I want to talk about control control"},{"startTime":1622.699,"endTime":1627.159,"body":"over I don't know if controls right"},{"startTime":1627.159,"endTime":1630.289,"body":"word but  I don't think you can reach"},{"startTime":1627.159,"endTime":1630.289,"body":"a level of quality that you have to"},{"startTime":1630.289,"endTime":1633.689,"body":"reach in order to, to, to work the"},{"startTime":1630.289,"endTime":1633.689,"body":"way I'm working now without having"},{"startTime":1633.749,"endTime":1635.999,"body":"total control over start to finish."},{"startTime":1636.149,"endTime":1639.879,"body":"Because my start to finish does not start"},{"startTime":1636.149,"endTime":1639.879,"body":"when somebody has handed me requirements."},{"startTime":1640.029,"endTime":1643.669,"body":"That are already fleshed out and then"},{"startTime":1640.029,"endTime":1643.669,"body":"I just do some development and then"},{"startTime":1643.669,"endTime":1647.289,"body":"I send it over to another team that"},{"startTime":1643.669,"endTime":1647.289,"body":"deploys it and then another team does"},{"startTime":1647.289,"endTime":1650.719,"body":"customer support and then another team"},{"startTime":1647.289,"endTime":1650.719,"body":"does whatever that that's not the case."},{"startTime":1650.869,"endTime":1655.929,"body":"The case is I talk to customers, I"},{"startTime":1650.869,"endTime":1655.929,"body":"decide what they need with them and the"},{"startTime":1655.929,"endTime":1657.699,"body":"development team, everyone in the room."},{"startTime":1657.849,"endTime":1662.459,"body":"We control all the environments we"},{"startTime":1657.849,"endTime":1662.459,"body":"send code out to and release to."},{"startTime":1662.609,"endTime":1666.459,"body":"And using a CICD, we're"},{"startTime":1662.609,"endTime":1666.459,"body":"continually putting things into"},{"startTime":1666.459,"endTime":1668.899,"body":"production, like little, little,"},{"startTime":1666.459,"endTime":1668.899,"body":"little bits at a time, right?"},{"startTime":1669.049,"endTime":1672.929,"body":"And the testing is done and, and"},{"startTime":1669.049,"endTime":1672.929,"body":"wrapped in, inside of that process"},{"startTime":1673.159,"endTime":1674.059,"body":"i, if."},{"startTime":1674.154,"endTime":1679.899,"body":"If we had to Oh, the continuous discovery"},{"startTime":1674.154,"endTime":1679.899,"body":"is done by my product team and and"},{"startTime":1679.989,"endTime":1683.629,"body":"like a lead engineer or something"},{"startTime":1679.989,"endTime":1683.629,"body":"who doesn't even work on my team."},{"startTime":1683.749,"endTime":1685.499,"body":"Maybe they're like my"},{"startTime":1683.749,"endTime":1685.499,"body":"boss's boss or whatever."},{"startTime":1685.699,"endTime":1688.729,"body":"And then they go off in"},{"startTime":1685.699,"endTime":1688.729,"body":"a corner and they decide."},{"startTime":1688.939,"endTime":1689.629,"body":"What's going to be done."},{"startTime":1689.629,"endTime":1692.789,"body":"They write a PRD product"},{"startTime":1689.629,"endTime":1692.789,"body":"requirements document."},{"startTime":1692.809,"endTime":1694.419,"body":"Well, they hand it to a BA to write."},{"startTime":1694.459,"endTime":1695.079,"body":"And then they, yeah."},{"startTime":1695.079,"endTime":1696.819,"body":"Or maybe they, they involve"},{"startTime":1695.079,"endTime":1696.819,"body":"somebody else to write that."},{"startTime":1696.819,"endTime":1701.539,"body":"And then they hand that down to the"},{"startTime":1696.819,"endTime":1701.539,"body":"team with a list, basically, well,"},{"startTime":1701.549,"endTime":1704.449,"body":"several lists, honestly, of things"},{"startTime":1701.549,"endTime":1704.449,"body":"that need to be done with diagrams and"},{"startTime":1704.459,"endTime":1708.439,"body":"architected out and like the creativity"},{"startTime":1704.459,"endTime":1708.439,"body":"is minimized and the beatings will"},{"startTime":1708.439,"endTime":1709.779,"body":"continue until the work is done."},{"startTime":1710.039,"endTime":1714.119,"body":"And then when you code things you can play"},{"startTime":1710.039,"endTime":1714.119,"body":"in your little development Sandbox, but"},{"startTime":1714.119,"endTime":1717.359,"body":"the minute you go to another environment"},{"startTime":1714.119,"endTime":1717.359,"body":"past that you got to get another team"},{"startTime":1717.359,"endTime":1719.219,"body":"involved and you got to wait on Them"},{"startTime":1719.359,"endTime":1719.639,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1719.659,"endTime":1724.029,"body":"So with all these handoffs, with"},{"startTime":1719.659,"endTime":1724.029,"body":"all of these silos no matter how"},{"startTime":1724.029,"endTime":1727.249,"body":"wide the silo is It's still a silo"},{"startTime":1724.029,"endTime":1727.249,"body":"with all these silos happening I"},{"startTime":1727.249,"endTime":1730.799,"body":"don't think it would be possible"},{"startTime":1727.249,"endTime":1730.799,"body":"to do what I'm doing with even one."},{"startTime":1730.949,"endTime":1731.639,"body":"That's my challenge."},{"startTime":1731.649,"endTime":1733.329,"body":"Even one of these silos."},{"startTime":1733.369,"endTime":1734.029,"body":"Maybe one."},{"startTime":1734.039,"endTime":1734.779,"body":"Maybe, just pick one."},{"startTime":1734.779,"endTime":1737.009,"body":"But also the minute you inject"},{"startTime":1734.779,"endTime":1737.009,"body":"one, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1737.009,"endTime":1738.469,"body":"look at that one and say, Really?"},{"startTime":1738.469,"endTime":1739.739,"body":"Why is, why that one?"},{"startTime":1739.909,"endTime":1741.369,"body":"Why, why that one?"},{"startTime":1741.429,"endTime":1741.759,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1741.909,"endTime":1741.979,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1742.289,"endTime":1744.569,"body":"One's one too many in"},{"startTime":1742.289,"endTime":1744.569,"body":"this case, I feel like."},{"startTime":1744.719,"endTime":1749.419,"body":"If you just pick, pick your"},{"startTime":1744.719,"endTime":1749.419,"body":"favorite silo to say, This silo is"},{"startTime":1749.419,"endTime":1751.449,"body":"really important to be silo fied."},{"startTime":1751.639,"endTime":1752.299,"body":"Silo fied?"},{"startTime":1752.459,"endTime":1752.969,"body":"Is that a word?"},{"startTime":1753.059,"endTime":1753.789,"body":"Ooh, I like it."},{"startTime":1753.799,"endTime":1754.509,"body":"Silo fied?"},{"startTime":1754.509,"endTime":1755.019,"body":"Silo fied?"},{"startTime":1755.219,"endTime":1755.419,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":1755.439,"endTime":1756.569,"body":"Why inject one?"},{"startTime":1756.694,"endTime":1762.094,"body":"So if we agree that the whole point"},{"startTime":1756.694,"endTime":1762.094,"body":"of us working in this way, in the"},{"startTime":1762.094,"endTime":1766.004,"body":"agile ways of working, is to deliver"},{"startTime":1762.094,"endTime":1766.004,"body":"customer value as soon as we can."},{"startTime":1766.274,"endTime":1769.914,"body":"If we agree on, broadly agree"},{"startTime":1766.274,"endTime":1769.914,"body":"on that, every one of these"},{"startTime":1770.084,"endTime":1771.724,"body":"handoffs, Works against us."},{"startTime":1771.754,"endTime":1772.094,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1772.144,"endTime":1772.504,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1772.674,"endTime":1777.604,"body":"So in the lean way of thinking, each"},{"startTime":1772.674,"endTime":1777.604,"body":"one of these handoffs is a waste, right?"},{"startTime":1777.604,"endTime":1778.094,"body":"Technically."},{"startTime":1778.374,"endTime":1782.354,"body":"Now, how can you accelerate"},{"startTime":1778.374,"endTime":1782.354,"body":"value to the customer?"},{"startTime":1782.504,"endTime":1783.524,"body":"Eliminate waste?"},{"startTime":1783.794,"endTime":1786.744,"body":"And what better way to"},{"startTime":1783.794,"endTime":1786.744,"body":"eliminate waste then go after"},{"startTime":1786.744,"endTime":1788.414,"body":"the low hanging fruit, right?"},{"startTime":1788.614,"endTime":1791.864,"body":"Which we've come across in this"},{"startTime":1788.614,"endTime":1791.864,"body":"podcast already a few of them."},{"startTime":1792.014,"endTime":1794.994,"body":"But there are some other ones"},{"startTime":1792.014,"endTime":1794.994,"body":"that are kind of We glanced at"},{"startTime":1794.994,"endTime":1796.604,"body":"it like developers are done."},{"startTime":1796.604,"endTime":1800.424,"body":"Let's just say they work with QA"},{"startTime":1796.604,"endTime":1800.424,"body":"and they're both working together."},{"startTime":1800.424,"endTime":1804.119,"body":"And there's maybe you have no QA and"},{"startTime":1800.424,"endTime":1804.119,"body":"developers test the stuff, but they"},{"startTime":1804.119,"endTime":1808.379,"body":"can't actually deploy it because"},{"startTime":1804.119,"endTime":1808.379,"body":"they have to wait for a DevOps team,"},{"startTime":1808.639,"endTime":1810.389,"body":"which is a matrix team somewhere."},{"startTime":1810.684,"endTime":1811.634,"body":"Hand it off to them."},{"startTime":1811.704,"endTime":1812.424,"body":"Another handoff."},{"startTime":1812.654,"endTime":1817.344,"body":"And the DevOps team is very, very"},{"startTime":1812.654,"endTime":1817.344,"body":"willing to help you, but they've got a"},{"startTime":1817.344,"endTime":1818.854,"body":"backlog that they have to work through."},{"startTime":1818.924,"endTime":1821.254,"body":"And so your stuff's gonna"},{"startTime":1818.924,"endTime":1821.254,"body":"happen three days from now."},{"startTime":1821.304,"endTime":1822.404,"body":"Oh, another handoff."},{"startTime":1822.554,"endTime":1823.934,"body":"Another waste, right?"},{"startTime":1824.234,"endTime":1827.044,"body":"If you have the skill sets on"},{"startTime":1824.234,"endTime":1827.044,"body":"your team, though, to deploy"},{"startTime":1827.384,"endTime":1828.774,"body":"that increment to production."},{"startTime":1828.924,"endTime":1831.594,"body":"Then you could get that"},{"startTime":1828.924,"endTime":1831.594,"body":"to the customer quicker."},{"startTime":1831.744,"endTime":1834.674,"body":"There's so many instances where"},{"startTime":1831.744,"endTime":1834.674,"body":"I've seen those things and I point"},{"startTime":1834.674,"endTime":1836.794,"body":"them out and say, This is a waste."},{"startTime":1836.804,"endTime":1837.444,"body":"This is a waste."},{"startTime":1837.474,"endTime":1838.204,"body":"This is a waste."},{"startTime":1838.354,"endTime":1842.814,"body":"And the counter argument against that"},{"startTime":1838.354,"endTime":1842.814,"body":"always is, Yeah, but that's their job."},{"startTime":1843.114,"endTime":1843.994,"body":"That's their job."},{"startTime":1844.164,"endTime":1846.964,"body":"It's us and themism again"},{"startTime":1844.164,"endTime":1846.964,"body":"and again and again."},{"startTime":1847.044,"endTime":1849.664,"body":"I guess for people that have"},{"startTime":1847.044,"endTime":1849.664,"body":"made it all the way through this"},{"startTime":1849.684,"endTime":1851.229,"body":"podcast Both of you, thank you."},{"startTime":1851.229,"endTime":1851.799,"body":"Thank you, both of you."},{"startTime":1852.019,"endTime":1855.044,"body":"And I hope by now you've detected"},{"startTime":1852.019,"endTime":1855.044,"body":"We're not saying I don't know"},{"startTime":1855.044,"endTime":1856.254,"body":"what I'll title this podcast."},{"startTime":1856.254,"endTime":1859.284,"body":"I don't know what click baity title"},{"startTime":1856.254,"endTime":1859.284,"body":"I'll put to this podcast, but like,"},{"startTime":1859.364,"endTime":1861.454,"body":"I'm not saying don't have QA people."},{"startTime":1861.604,"endTime":1868.044,"body":"I'm saying my team has testing skillset"},{"startTime":1861.604,"endTime":1868.044,"body":"and everybody on the team is looking out"},{"startTime":1868.054,"endTime":1873.194,"body":"to make sure that quality is built in at"},{"startTime":1868.054,"endTime":1873.194,"body":"every single step along the way throughout"},{"startTime":1873.404,"endTime":1874.894,"body":"the whole life cycle of the software."},{"startTime":1875.044,"endTime":1878.654,"body":"And because we have discipline, and"},{"startTime":1875.044,"endTime":1878.654,"body":"because we have basically advanced"},{"startTime":1878.724,"endTime":1882.524,"body":"practices, advanced team members, what"},{"startTime":1878.724,"endTime":1882.524,"body":"I think of as advanced, I mean, we could"},{"startTime":1882.544,"endTime":1886.444,"body":"be doing a lot more, we could be doing"},{"startTime":1882.544,"endTime":1886.444,"body":"a lot more automated testing, we could"},{"startTime":1886.454,"endTime":1890.934,"body":"be a lot more diligent about the QA"},{"startTime":1886.454,"endTime":1890.934,"body":"metrics that we're pulling, anybody can"},{"startTime":1890.934,"endTime":1892.014,"body":"pull QA metrics, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1892.124,"endTime":1892.454,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1892.524,"endTime":1897.204,"body":"There's a lot more, we could be, Writing"},{"startTime":1892.524,"endTime":1897.204,"body":"TDD, actual TDD, I could be putting it"},{"startTime":1897.204,"endTime":1900.554,"body":"into the requirements so that it's, it"},{"startTime":1897.204,"endTime":1900.554,"body":"flows through the rest of the process."},{"startTime":1900.734,"endTime":1902.464,"body":"There's a lot of stuff we could be doing."},{"startTime":1902.614,"endTime":1903.514,"body":"Do we need to do it?"},{"startTime":1903.534,"endTime":1907.124,"body":"Well, we have no bugs, and we don't"},{"startTime":1903.534,"endTime":1907.124,"body":"have any big problems that are"},{"startTime":1907.254,"endTime":1910.794,"body":"causing issues with regard to product"},{"startTime":1907.254,"endTime":1910.794,"body":"and with regard to technology."},{"startTime":1910.944,"endTime":1911.864,"body":"So do we need to do it?"},{"startTime":1912.174,"endTime":1913.754,"body":"For my application, probably not."},{"startTime":1913.844,"endTime":1914.074,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1914.224,"endTime":1917.724,"body":"For other applications, maybe you"},{"startTime":1914.224,"endTime":1917.724,"body":"know, you work in medical field,"},{"startTime":1917.914,"endTime":1920.734,"body":"you work in something with more"},{"startTime":1917.914,"endTime":1920.734,"body":"scrutiny, maybe you'd have to go"},{"startTime":1920.734,"endTime":1922.124,"body":"deeper and implement more things."},{"startTime":1922.124,"endTime":1924.734,"body":"But anyway, it's all about impact"},{"startTime":1922.124,"endTime":1924.734,"body":"at the end of the day, right?"},{"startTime":1924.964,"endTime":1928.459,"body":"It certainly is as long as you're"},{"startTime":1924.964,"endTime":1928.459,"body":"inspecting what's happening."},{"startTime":1928.609,"endTime":1931.679,"body":"And you're keeping an eye on the"},{"startTime":1928.609,"endTime":1931.679,"body":"total quality, you know of the"},{"startTime":1931.679,"endTime":1935.429,"body":"entire system, basically, not just"},{"startTime":1931.679,"endTime":1935.429,"body":"one single piece then maybe you're"},{"startTime":1935.519,"endTime":1936.209,"body":"headed in the right direction."},{"startTime":1936.389,"endTime":1938.349,"body":"So hopefully by the, by the end"},{"startTime":1936.389,"endTime":1938.349,"body":"of this podcast, like people have"},{"startTime":1938.349,"endTime":1942.059,"body":"understood that you know, when I'm not"},{"startTime":1938.349,"endTime":1942.059,"body":"saying again, my background is in QA."},{"startTime":1942.059,"endTime":1943.659,"body":"So that's why I have a"},{"startTime":1942.059,"endTime":1943.659,"body":"lot to say on this topic."},{"startTime":1943.679,"endTime":1944.109,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1944.179,"endTime":1944.949,"body":"We're not saying."},{"startTime":1945.099,"endTime":1946.059,"body":"Don't have testers."},{"startTime":1946.099,"endTime":1947.299,"body":"It's quite the opposite."},{"startTime":1947.299,"endTime":1947.689,"body":"Actually."},{"startTime":1947.689,"endTime":1952.149,"body":"It's take the time to where everybody in"},{"startTime":1947.689,"endTime":1952.149,"body":"your team has a testing skill set, right?"},{"startTime":1952.299,"endTime":1955.049,"body":"Which is the way more expensive option?"},{"startTime":1955.199,"endTime":1959.079,"body":"Actually, so it was interesting that"},{"startTime":1955.199,"endTime":1959.079,"body":"people immediately pushed back on me when"},{"startTime":1959.079,"endTime":1962.819,"body":"I brought this up because what they didn't"},{"startTime":1959.079,"endTime":1962.819,"body":"realize is oh you're actually spending"},{"startTime":1962.959,"endTime":1968.689,"body":"more money ensuring that your product"},{"startTime":1962.959,"endTime":1968.689,"body":"is quality then we are over here with a"},{"startTime":1968.689,"endTime":1971.579,"body":"dedicated QA team where we throw stuff"},{"startTime":1968.689,"endTime":1971.579,"body":"over the fence and You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1971.579,"endTime":1972.409,"body":"We have all these silos."},{"startTime":1972.409,"endTime":1974.279,"body":"But then the quality is"},{"startTime":1972.409,"endTime":1974.279,"body":"subpar at that point."},{"startTime":1974.289,"endTime":1975.809,"body":"So, yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1975.959,"endTime":1978.859,"body":"So that's, that's this podcast"},{"startTime":1975.959,"endTime":1978.859,"body":"you know, don't optimize,"},{"startTime":1978.949,"endTime":1982.199,"body":"don't do local optimization is"},{"startTime":1978.949,"endTime":1982.199,"body":"basically what this boils down to."},{"startTime":1982.199,"endTime":1982.479,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1982.499,"endTime":1984.259,"body":"Look, look at optimizing the whole."},{"startTime":1984.309,"endTime":1984.589,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1984.809,"endTime":1985.009,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1985.009,"endTime":1985.249,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1985.399,"endTime":1987.249,"body":"Take a systems view."},{"startTime":1987.399,"endTime":1987.739,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1988.039,"endTime":1990.519,"body":"Systems view, a holistic view."},{"startTime":1990.669,"endTime":1993.189,"body":"Well, if you like to take a"},{"startTime":1990.669,"endTime":1993.189,"body":"systems view, like and subscribe."},{"startTime":1993.239,"endTime":1997.089,"body":"And also let us know what topics"},{"startTime":1993.239,"endTime":1997.089,"body":"that you would like us to talk about."},{"startTime":1997.089,"endTime":2001.269,"body":"We have a form on the website and yeah,"},{"startTime":1997.089,"endTime":2001.269,"body":"just navigate over to arguingazure."},{"startTime":2001.269,"endTime":2002.119,"body":"com and let us know."},{"startTime":2002.269,"endTime":2003.409,"body":"And that's a wrap."}]}