{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.129,"body":"There was an article that Ron Jeffries"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.129,"body":"wrote the very famous Ron Jeffries in"},{"startTime":4.129,"endTime":10.819,"body":"the Agile circles in 2013, so a billion"},{"startTime":4.129,"endTime":10.819,"body":"Dog years ago, basically in agile terms,"},{"startTime":10.819,"endTime":15.919,"body":"that was a 15 careers ago wrote this"},{"startTime":10.819,"endTime":15.919,"body":"article called estimation is evil."},{"startTime":16.044,"endTime":19.294,"body":"The tagline of the article, like the,"},{"startTime":16.044,"endTime":19.294,"body":"this, the single point that a lot of"},{"startTime":19.294,"endTime":22.554,"body":"people will point to in the article"},{"startTime":19.294,"endTime":22.554,"body":"is to say, , even Ron Jeffries,"},{"startTime":22.554,"endTime":23.844,"body":"who created story points says."},{"startTime":23.994,"endTime":28.354,"body":"He doesn't like story points that's"},{"startTime":23.994,"endTime":28.354,"body":"why this article is famous But I"},{"startTime":28.354,"endTime":31.724,"body":"figured it would be like for a little"},{"startTime":28.354,"endTime":31.724,"body":"trip down memory lane for a little"},{"startTime":31.734,"endTime":35.724,"body":"for a little context To anyone who"},{"startTime":31.734,"endTime":35.724,"body":"might hear that little sound bite,"},{"startTime":35.799,"endTime":39.179,"body":"let's have this podcast, let it"},{"startTime":35.799,"endTime":39.179,"body":"live on the internet in perpetuity."},{"startTime":39.269,"endTime":39.979,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":39.989,"endTime":42.389,"body":"Yeah, and that's, we're going"},{"startTime":39.989,"endTime":42.389,"body":"to crawl through this article"},{"startTime":42.539,"endTime":44.309,"body":"pointing out select quotes."},{"startTime":44.319,"endTime":44.889,"body":"Snippets."},{"startTime":44.919,"endTime":45.629,"body":"And snippets."},{"startTime":45.689,"endTime":45.909,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":45.949,"endTime":46.419,"body":"From the article."},{"startTime":46.479,"endTime":50.039,"body":"It's interesting that, because"},{"startTime":46.479,"endTime":50.039,"body":"2013 is what you just said, right?"},{"startTime":50.069,"endTime":53.089,"body":"And that was what, 10 years after"},{"startTime":50.069,"endTime":53.089,"body":"the manifesto or something like that?"},{"startTime":53.199,"endTime":54.189,"body":"A thousand years, yes."},{"startTime":54.189,"endTime":54.899,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":55.199,"endTime":60.799,"body":"But, Ron Jeffries was one of the, the,"},{"startTime":55.199,"endTime":60.799,"body":"Founding fathers of this whole concept"},{"startTime":60.809,"endTime":66.229,"body":"of story points, but we're going to"},{"startTime":60.809,"endTime":66.229,"body":"delve into what he's saying back in 2013."},{"startTime":66.869,"endTime":70.254,"body":"We're going to delve into it today"},{"startTime":66.869,"endTime":70.254,"body":"so this is going to be an interesting"},{"startTime":70.274,"endTime":73.044,"body":"podcast for those of you that"},{"startTime":70.274,"endTime":73.044,"body":"want the historical perspective,"},{"startTime":73.064,"endTime":74.264,"body":"but also what's going on today."},{"startTime":74.389,"endTime":79.789,"body":"So I'm going to skip a good section to"},{"startTime":74.389,"endTime":79.789,"body":"get in directly into the meat of it or"},{"startTime":79.789,"endTime":82.349,"body":"the vegans amongst you, the tofu of it."},{"startTime":82.499,"endTime":83.319,"body":"Let's, let's do that."},{"startTime":83.469,"endTime":84.119,"body":"Tofu."},{"startTime":84.269,"endTime":86.914,"body":"So his hook to opening the article."},{"startTime":87.174,"endTime":88.084,"body":"Estimation is evil."},{"startTime":88.094,"endTime":88.574,"body":"Here it is."},{"startTime":88.604,"endTime":91.859,"body":"I'll post a link to the source that"},{"startTime":88.604,"endTime":91.859,"body":"we're reading this from so people"},{"startTime":91.859,"endTime":93.239,"body":"can read it themselves if they want."},{"startTime":93.389,"endTime":98.029,"body":"It's from February, 2013 in"},{"startTime":93.389,"endTime":98.029,"body":"pragmatic programmers magazine."},{"startTime":98.049,"endTime":100.319,"body":"Magazine is like a"},{"startTime":98.049,"endTime":100.319,"body":"papery blog for you kids."},{"startTime":100.599,"endTime":104.229,"body":"And then he says many teams, I"},{"startTime":100.599,"endTime":104.229,"body":"believe it's most agile teams."},{"startTime":104.419,"endTime":108.999,"body":"Get some improvement from applying"},{"startTime":104.419,"endTime":108.999,"body":"Agile values, principles, and practices."},{"startTime":109.169,"endTime":110.219,"body":"That's his first sentence."},{"startTime":110.419,"endTime":111.739,"body":"Kind of a nonchalant first sentence."},{"startTime":111.749,"endTime":116.159,"body":"But, but, well, he, he calls out"},{"startTime":111.749,"endTime":116.159,"body":"undistinguished teams often seem"},{"startTime":116.159,"endTime":119.949,"body":"to have excessive concern for one"},{"startTime":116.159,"endTime":119.949,"body":"or more of these things, which is"},{"startTime":120.159,"endTime":122.529,"body":"completing a predefined backlog of work."},{"startTime":122.679,"endTime":127.489,"body":"Asking for quote everything to be"},{"startTime":122.679,"endTime":127.489,"body":"done by a fixed date and improving"},{"startTime":127.489,"endTime":132.449,"body":"the quality of their estimates and"},{"startTime":127.489,"endTime":132.449,"body":"basically being able to say how long"},{"startTime":132.449,"endTime":136.529,"body":"it's going to take to do quote everything"},{"startTime":132.449,"endTime":136.529,"body":"before they start doing, I don't know,"},{"startTime":136.539,"endTime":138.759,"body":"not quote anything like anything."},{"startTime":138.979,"endTime":139.269,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":139.279,"endTime":141.309,"body":"So look, it's 2013, right?"},{"startTime":141.319,"endTime":143.849,"body":"Get into your DeLorean"},{"startTime":141.319,"endTime":143.849,"body":"and go back to 2013."},{"startTime":143.999,"endTime":146.969,"body":"You're gonna find that a lot"},{"startTime":143.999,"endTime":146.969,"body":"of people are looking at..."},{"startTime":147.119,"endTime":150.749,"body":"Exactly what he's portraying here,"},{"startTime":147.119,"endTime":150.749,"body":"which is, here's a date, you're going"},{"startTime":150.749,"endTime":154.299,"body":"to hit that date, and here's all the"},{"startTime":150.749,"endTime":154.299,"body":"things you have to deliver by that date."},{"startTime":154.479,"endTime":159.879,"body":"So those of you that are PMPs even if you"},{"startTime":154.479,"endTime":159.879,"body":"haven't recovered yet you'll recognize the"},{"startTime":159.969,"endTime":165.359,"body":"iron triangle argument that he's making"},{"startTime":159.969,"endTime":165.359,"body":"here, right, without saying as much."},{"startTime":165.509,"endTime":167.019,"body":"So that's really what this is about."},{"startTime":167.029,"endTime":170.209,"body":"Back in 2013, it was, you"},{"startTime":167.029,"endTime":170.209,"body":"have to meet this date."},{"startTime":170.239,"endTime":173.179,"body":"You have to deliver all"},{"startTime":170.239,"endTime":173.179,"body":"these things by this date."},{"startTime":173.999,"endTime":176.649,"body":"That's really the kind of"},{"startTime":173.999,"endTime":176.649,"body":"opening that he's he's used here."},{"startTime":176.799,"endTime":178.299,"body":"By all means, go ahead"},{"startTime":176.799,"endTime":178.299,"body":"and read the article."},{"startTime":178.299,"endTime":180.789,"body":"Ron, if you're if you're"},{"startTime":178.299,"endTime":180.789,"body":"watching or listening to this..."},{"startTime":180.939,"endTime":182.699,"body":"We would love to hear from you."},{"startTime":182.849,"endTime":186.039,"body":"And also, I have to jump the clock"},{"startTime":182.849,"endTime":186.039,"body":"back 10 years from 2013, because I"},{"startTime":186.039,"endTime":190.249,"body":"feel this is like a this could be like"},{"startTime":186.039,"endTime":190.249,"body":"a mid career summary at this point."},{"startTime":190.269,"endTime":193.779,"body":"The way the article is written, the way"},{"startTime":190.269,"endTime":193.779,"body":"that I read it, the way that I read it,"},{"startTime":193.789,"endTime":196.889,"body":"the way that I read it, read it, read it,"},{"startTime":193.789,"endTime":196.889,"body":"they're spelled the same, so you don't"},{"startTime":196.889,"endTime":198.119,"body":"know what I'm going to say right now."},{"startTime":198.419,"endTime":202.089,"body":"I feel he's reflecting on 10 years"},{"startTime":198.419,"endTime":202.089,"body":"of experience at this point from"},{"startTime":202.179,"endTime":203.919,"body":"10 years ago, which was 2003."},{"startTime":204.739,"endTime":206.239,"body":"And I can tell you."},{"startTime":206.389,"endTime":210.319,"body":"Because that was the very, very,"},{"startTime":206.389,"endTime":210.319,"body":"very early part of my career was back"},{"startTime":210.319,"endTime":216.189,"body":"in those days when every developer"},{"startTime":210.319,"endTime":216.189,"body":"basically worked for a project manager"},{"startTime":216.339,"endTime":219.869,"body":"who decided what was going to be done"},{"startTime":216.339,"endTime":219.869,"body":"and when it was going to be done by."},{"startTime":220.019,"endTime":223.279,"body":"All of the requirements were written"},{"startTime":220.019,"endTime":223.279,"body":"before anybody started on anything"},{"startTime":223.539,"endTime":227.929,"body":"and they were all chiseled in stone"},{"startTime":223.539,"endTime":227.929,"body":"and sign off was in done in blood in"},{"startTime":227.929,"endTime":233.379,"body":"triplicate and Once you agree to something"},{"startTime":227.929,"endTime":233.379,"body":"there was no changing it unless you"},{"startTime":233.529,"endTime":236.909,"body":"signed over your first child In the"},{"startTime":233.529,"endTime":236.909,"body":"form of a change request like that."},{"startTime":237.059,"endTime":238.399,"body":"It sounds ridiculous."},{"startTime":238.449,"endTime":241.379,"body":"I mean like people are like,"},{"startTime":238.449,"endTime":241.379,"body":"oh People listen and we'll say"},{"startTime":241.489,"endTime":243.189,"body":"why is it even relevant to me?"},{"startTime":243.339,"endTime":246.199,"body":"That's not even the"},{"startTime":243.339,"endTime":246.199,"body":"world we live in today."},{"startTime":246.369,"endTime":249.039,"body":"Not even by a long shot, not"},{"startTime":246.369,"endTime":249.039,"body":"the world we live in today."},{"startTime":249.189,"endTime":250.969,"body":"That, that's what people,"},{"startTime":249.189,"endTime":250.969,"body":"that's the critique here."},{"startTime":250.969,"endTime":254.419,"body":"That's the arguing Agile pushback"},{"startTime":250.969,"endTime":254.419,"body":"to say, why is it relevant to"},{"startTime":254.419,"endTime":255.799,"body":"look at this snapshot of history?"},{"startTime":255.949,"endTime":256.319,"body":"You know."},{"startTime":256.379,"endTime":258.409,"body":"Yeah, and it's a very,"},{"startTime":256.379,"endTime":258.409,"body":"very valid pushback."},{"startTime":258.409,"endTime":259.769,"body":"Because now we have product managers now."},{"startTime":259.779,"endTime":260.569,"body":"We do, we do."},{"startTime":260.589,"endTime":264.639,"body":"And the P word wasn't even, the P"},{"startTime":260.589,"endTime":264.639,"body":"word when it pertains to product,"},{"startTime":264.719,"endTime":266.309,"body":"wasn't even spoken about back then."},{"startTime":266.309,"endTime":269.059,"body":"It was always project, project"},{"startTime":266.309,"endTime":269.059,"body":"managers, project this, project that."},{"startTime":269.089,"endTime":271.429,"body":"Yeah, there were no product managers."},{"startTime":275.379,"endTime":278.019,"body":"So it's relevant today, this"},{"startTime":275.379,"endTime":278.019,"body":"isn't just some historical thing"},{"startTime":278.019,"endTime":280.829,"body":"that you can say, well that"},{"startTime":278.019,"endTime":280.829,"body":"happened then, doesn't matter now."},{"startTime":280.979,"endTime":287.949,"body":"The reason why it's valid today is because"},{"startTime":280.979,"endTime":287.949,"body":"it is still prevalent today, right?"},{"startTime":288.279,"endTime":289.959,"body":"Whether you recognize it or not."},{"startTime":289.959,"endTime":293.489,"body":"So the point of this podcast is"},{"startTime":289.959,"endTime":293.489,"body":"for you to look at it in your own"},{"startTime":293.489,"endTime":294.959,"body":"environments, look at it and go..."},{"startTime":295.109,"endTime":296.319,"body":"Do we have some of that?"},{"startTime":296.509,"endTime":297.049,"body":"All of that."},{"startTime":297.199,"endTime":297.749,"body":"Any of it."},{"startTime":297.899,"endTime":303.039,"body":"And then if you align to any of that, this"},{"startTime":297.899,"endTime":303.039,"body":"is where the value comes into play here."},{"startTime":303.189,"endTime":306.279,"body":"The dates are very, the years"},{"startTime":303.189,"endTime":306.279,"body":"at least, are very relevant"},{"startTime":306.289,"endTime":308.359,"body":"here because 2003, 2013, 2023."},{"startTime":308.509,"endTime":311.799,"body":"Right, yeah, but you know, you"},{"startTime":308.509,"endTime":311.799,"body":"know the funny part about the about"},{"startTime":311.829,"endTime":315.419,"body":"like history repeating itself that"},{"startTime":311.829,"endTime":315.419,"body":"were that you're kind of dipping"},{"startTime":315.419,"endTime":316.599,"body":"in Yeah, I'm just getting there."},{"startTime":316.674,"endTime":322.099,"body":"Is like how long are the"},{"startTime":316.674,"endTime":322.099,"body":"Misinterpretations of Taylorism"},{"startTime":322.269,"endTime":323.429,"body":"gonna stick around, right?"},{"startTime":323.449,"endTime":326.899,"body":"Like they've they've stuck around for well"},{"startTime":323.449,"endTime":326.899,"body":"over a hundred years at this point How"},{"startTime":326.899,"endTime":329.169,"body":"much longer do people need to think that?"},{"startTime":329.169,"endTime":331.494,"body":"Oh We all know that software development."},{"startTime":331.604,"endTime":337.654,"body":"There's not one right way to do everything"},{"startTime":331.604,"endTime":337.654,"body":"there are multiple ways some of them more"},{"startTime":337.654,"endTime":343.334,"body":"right than others, but But certainly equal"},{"startTime":337.654,"endTime":343.334,"body":"on the quote correctness of doing things."},{"startTime":343.524,"endTime":348.264,"body":"So like how, how long are you going"},{"startTime":343.524,"endTime":348.264,"body":"to apply this incorrect application of"},{"startTime":348.384,"endTime":354.194,"body":"management to this new, what new method"},{"startTime":348.384,"endTime":354.194,"body":"of working to this new industry basically,"},{"startTime":354.544,"endTime":358.034,"body":"where it doesn't, it's incompatible,"},{"startTime":354.544,"endTime":358.034,"body":"this incompatible management mindset."},{"startTime":358.184,"endTime":359.794,"body":"So if a hundred years."},{"startTime":359.944,"endTime":360.754,"body":"Is not enough."},{"startTime":360.834,"endTime":363.924,"body":"Like how long are we going"},{"startTime":360.834,"endTime":363.924,"body":"to be stuck with this?"},{"startTime":363.999,"endTime":365.059,"body":"This is what we'll do."},{"startTime":365.199,"endTime":368.269,"body":"We'll put this at, let's put"},{"startTime":365.199,"endTime":368.269,"body":"this podcast in a time capsule"},{"startTime":368.489,"endTime":369.699,"body":"and 10 years from now I'll play."},{"startTime":369.869,"endTime":372.479,"body":"So Siri set an alert for 10 years."},{"startTime":372.629,"endTime":373.899,"body":"Oh . My Siri just did that."},{"startTime":374.089,"endTime":374.999,"body":"No, seriously though."},{"startTime":375.089,"endTime":378.269,"body":"Yeah, that would be so"},{"startTime":375.089,"endTime":378.269,"body":"revealing if we did that, right?"},{"startTime":378.299,"endTime":383.399,"body":"But again so why in 10 years"},{"startTime":378.299,"endTime":383.399,"body":"time, where are we going to be?"},{"startTime":383.409,"endTime":384.599,"body":"And why is it relevant today?"},{"startTime":384.599,"endTime":387.659,"body":"And all of that, because"},{"startTime":384.599,"endTime":387.659,"body":"this is not a binary thing."},{"startTime":387.659,"endTime":391.689,"body":"It's not like, okay, 2003, something"},{"startTime":387.659,"endTime":391.689,"body":"happened in 2013, this happened."},{"startTime":391.689,"endTime":395.589,"body":"And then 2023, we're completely, you"},{"startTime":391.689,"endTime":395.589,"body":"don't have that compartmentalism."},{"startTime":397.129,"endTime":397.749,"body":"Did I say that right?"},{"startTime":397.874,"endTime":401.484,"body":"This is a stroke, if you"},{"startTime":397.874,"endTime":401.484,"body":"like, of an artist's painting"},{"startTime":401.484,"endTime":402.964,"body":"that doesn't have any ending."},{"startTime":403.014,"endTime":406.984,"body":"This is the sound of a bell"},{"startTime":403.014,"endTime":406.984,"body":"that never actually stops."},{"startTime":407.014,"endTime":407.894,"body":"It decays."},{"startTime":408.044,"endTime":409.854,"body":"Kind of like my name it never stops."},{"startTime":409.854,"endTime":410.124,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":410.134,"endTime":410.764,"body":"It just decays."},{"startTime":410.814,"endTime":411.264,"body":"Trust me."},{"startTime":411.284,"endTime":413.264,"body":"So why is this relevant?"},{"startTime":413.284,"endTime":414.334,"body":"Because it impacts you."},{"startTime":414.384,"endTime":415.664,"body":"You just don't do things."},{"startTime":415.674,"endTime":419.774,"body":"You either don't know it does, or you"},{"startTime":415.674,"endTime":419.774,"body":"don't know how much it impacts you."},{"startTime":419.874,"endTime":420.224,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":420.224,"endTime":423.574,"body":"So when we're back again, from that"},{"startTime":420.224,"endTime":423.574,"body":"time capsule, we're going to tell you,"},{"startTime":423.574,"endTime":425.044,"body":"Hey, knock, knock, knock, wake up."},{"startTime":425.194,"endTime":427.494,"body":"Do you still think that"},{"startTime":425.194,"endTime":427.494,"body":"this is impacting you?"},{"startTime":427.584,"endTime":427.914,"body":"\\"},{"startTime":427.584,"endTime":427.914,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":428.064,"endTime":430.194,"body":"So I was going to say back the"},{"startTime":428.064,"endTime":430.194,"body":"article, but I'm going back to here."},{"startTime":430.314,"endTime":432.274,"body":"So, so he talks about"},{"startTime":430.314,"endTime":432.274,"body":"undistinguished teams."},{"startTime":432.359,"endTime":433.889,"body":"Undistinguished teams."},{"startTime":433.939,"endTime":437.839,"body":"The distinguishing characteristic"},{"startTime":433.939,"endTime":437.839,"body":"of undistinguished teams is they"},{"startTime":437.839,"endTime":441.769,"body":"have an excessive concern for"},{"startTime":437.839,"endTime":441.769,"body":"one or more of the following."},{"startTime":441.769,"endTime":443.689,"body":"And I will, I'll shortcut"},{"startTime":441.769,"endTime":443.689,"body":"you to the end of this."},{"startTime":443.839,"endTime":448.199,"body":"One or more of the following is,"},{"startTime":443.839,"endTime":448.199,"body":"they really like to have fixed dates"},{"startTime":448.369,"endTime":452.549,"body":"and estimates for, quote, everything"},{"startTime":448.369,"endTime":452.549,"body":"they could potentially work on."},{"startTime":452.769,"endTime":457.009,"body":"That is So, he says, they're"},{"startTime":452.769,"endTime":457.009,"body":"excessively concerned with estimation."},{"startTime":457.189,"endTime":458.849,"body":"These concerns are understandable."},{"startTime":459.039,"endTime":462.739,"body":"Most organizations experience with"},{"startTime":459.039,"endTime":462.739,"body":"software development is not good."},{"startTime":462.939,"endTime":464.369,"body":"Promises are made and not kept."},{"startTime":464.429,"endTime":468.919,"body":"Projects that were supposed to be"},{"startTime":464.429,"endTime":468.919,"body":"done on a certain date dragged on and"},{"startTime":468.919,"endTime":471.639,"body":"on, burning valuable time and money."},{"startTime":471.849,"endTime":478.244,"body":"Like again, this is a time capsule from"},{"startTime":471.849,"endTime":478.244,"body":"2003 re described or re unearthed edd?"},{"startTime":478.394,"endTime":480.734,"body":"Yeah, unearth and, and yeah."},{"startTime":481.034,"endTime":482.594,"body":"Re rediscovered basically."},{"startTime":482.624,"endTime":482.714,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":482.744,"endTime":486.524,"body":"In 2013, not a lot has changed,"},{"startTime":482.744,"endTime":486.524,"body":"but certain teams, they gave it a"},{"startTime":486.524,"endTime":489.734,"body":"different name then and called it"},{"startTime":486.524,"endTime":489.734,"body":"software crisis because software had"},{"startTime":489.734,"endTime":495.094,"body":"been more prevalent between two thou,"},{"startTime":489.734,"endTime":495.094,"body":"2003 and 2013 in those 10 years."},{"startTime":495.094,"endTime":497.804,"body":"So one thing I wanna highlight"},{"startTime":495.094,"endTime":497.804,"body":"from his first paragraph, he says"},{"startTime":497.854,"endTime":501.124,"body":"these, these are the things that"},{"startTime":497.854,"endTime":501.124,"body":"cause an agile project to only."},{"startTime":501.274,"endTime":504.394,"body":"be about 20 percent better than"},{"startTime":501.274,"endTime":504.394,"body":"whatever was going on before."},{"startTime":504.634,"endTime":507.754,"body":"So he's saying, Oh, we got an improvement"},{"startTime":504.634,"endTime":507.754,"body":"with agile applying it, but it's only"},{"startTime":507.754,"endTime":511.184,"body":"about 20 percent better with whatever"},{"startTime":507.754,"endTime":511.184,"body":"was happening before we can dispute"},{"startTime":511.184,"endTime":514.874,"body":"the 20 percent better with the number,"},{"startTime":511.184,"endTime":514.874,"body":"go back and forth, surveys, whatever."},{"startTime":515.054,"endTime":516.674,"body":"We're not like, I don't want"},{"startTime":515.054,"endTime":516.674,"body":"to spend a lot of time on that."},{"startTime":516.684,"endTime":520.804,"body":"I want to, but what basically his"},{"startTime":516.684,"endTime":520.804,"body":"point here is it's not a lot better."},{"startTime":520.804,"endTime":523.484,"body":"It's not, it's not monumentally"},{"startTime":520.804,"endTime":523.484,"body":"better than what we were doing before."},{"startTime":523.614,"endTime":525.674,"body":"It's only marginally better."},{"startTime":525.824,"endTime":530.244,"body":"Okay, so moving on to his next"},{"startTime":525.824,"endTime":530.244,"body":"section, which is titled starting"},{"startTime":530.364,"endTime":532.934,"body":"with all our requirements is wrong."},{"startTime":533.274,"endTime":539.264,"body":"He has the zinger of most of us were"},{"startTime":533.274,"endTime":539.264,"body":"taught to write down all our requirements"},{"startTime":539.274,"endTime":541.384,"body":"at the very beginning of the project."},{"startTime":541.534,"endTime":544.814,"body":"There are only three things wrong"},{"startTime":541.534,"endTime":544.814,"body":"with this quote requirements"},{"startTime":545.094,"endTime":546.374,"body":"quote the very beginning of."},{"startTime":546.524,"endTime":547.674,"body":"And quote all."},{"startTime":547.714,"endTime":548.794,"body":"So basically everything."},{"startTime":549.504,"endTime":551.004,"body":"And I can definitely relate to this."},{"startTime":551.079,"endTime":556.589,"body":"This guy basically nailed the essence"},{"startTime":551.079,"endTime":556.589,"body":"of what we were doing back then and why"},{"startTime":556.619,"endTime":558.339,"body":"what we were doing was very ineffective."},{"startTime":558.629,"endTime":558.929,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":558.959,"endTime":563.769,"body":"So in project management, you treated"},{"startTime":558.959,"endTime":563.769,"body":"the customer different to your own"},{"startTime":564.009,"endTime":567.459,"body":"teams because it was Us and them."},{"startTime":567.619,"endTime":568.349,"body":"They paid."},{"startTime":568.499,"endTime":569.229,"body":"We received."},{"startTime":569.379,"endTime":572.419,"body":"And you had the customer"},{"startTime":569.379,"endTime":572.419,"body":"write down what they needed."},{"startTime":572.519,"endTime":576.149,"body":"And not just kind of sort of write it"},{"startTime":572.519,"endTime":576.149,"body":"down and then come back and revisit."},{"startTime":576.149,"endTime":576.969,"body":"No, no, no, no."},{"startTime":577.119,"endTime":582.169,"body":"Write it down, sign off on it, and"},{"startTime":577.119,"endTime":582.169,"body":"then you say, okay, it is now fixed."},{"startTime":582.199,"endTime":583.519,"body":"These are your requirements."},{"startTime":583.519,"endTime":584.509,"body":"That's what Ron's saying here."},{"startTime":584.729,"endTime":588.709,"body":"And so when your teams start delivering"},{"startTime":584.729,"endTime":588.709,"body":"things to the customer and they start"},{"startTime":588.709,"endTime":593.024,"body":"seeing the early iterations, because"},{"startTime":588.709,"endTime":593.024,"body":"remember that word, I'm actually"},{"startTime":593.034,"endTime":595.294,"body":"being kind to lend back to that era."},{"startTime":595.304,"endTime":596.644,"body":"We didn't have iterations."},{"startTime":596.794,"endTime":599.094,"body":"So when the customer finally"},{"startTime":596.794,"endTime":599.094,"body":"saw something, it wasn't"},{"startTime":599.094,"endTime":600.074,"body":"quite what they wanted."},{"startTime":600.104,"endTime":600.684,"body":"And they said."},{"startTime":600.834,"endTime":603.224,"body":"Yeah, we, we don't want this now."},{"startTime":603.254,"endTime":606.074,"body":"We know we said we wanted that"},{"startTime":603.254,"endTime":606.074,"body":"a year ago or nine months ago."},{"startTime":606.414,"endTime":611.734,"body":"Immediately, immediately, the providing"},{"startTime":606.414,"endTime":611.734,"body":"organization, you said, but you"},{"startTime":611.734,"endTime":613.794,"body":"said that and you signed off on it."},{"startTime":614.084,"endTime":615.944,"body":"Now you're saying you don't want that."},{"startTime":615.944,"endTime":618.254,"body":"So, ah, that's fine, right?"},{"startTime":618.424,"endTime":620.094,"body":"We're customer centric now."},{"startTime":620.244,"endTime":623.034,"body":"Well, because Michael Porter had"},{"startTime":620.244,"endTime":623.034,"body":"been around and the people are now"},{"startTime":623.034,"endTime":626.274,"body":"thinking more about the customer and"},{"startTime":623.034,"endTime":626.274,"body":"they're saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, fine."},{"startTime":626.284,"endTime":626.794,"body":"It's okay."},{"startTime":626.794,"endTime":632.004,"body":"But, but we need you to now sign"},{"startTime":626.794,"endTime":632.004,"body":"off on a change request because"},{"startTime":632.004,"endTime":633.034,"body":"you're changing your mind."},{"startTime":633.574,"endTime":635.314,"body":"You want something different, right?"},{"startTime":635.554,"endTime":639.164,"body":"That was the era that he's"},{"startTime":635.554,"endTime":639.164,"body":"that Ron is is speaking off."},{"startTime":639.194,"endTime":640.364,"body":"And I've lived through that."},{"startTime":640.414,"endTime":641.234,"body":"Let me tell you this."},{"startTime":641.244,"endTime":645.534,"body":"It was extremely painful because it it"},{"startTime":641.244,"endTime":645.534,"body":"really bled through any trust you had"},{"startTime":645.534,"endTime":647.424,"body":"built up with your customer, right?"},{"startTime":647.454,"endTime":649.074,"body":"Their business changed."},{"startTime":649.214,"endTime":651.284,"body":"The business climate changed."},{"startTime":651.564,"endTime":655.414,"body":"How do you satisfy that over nine"},{"startTime":651.564,"endTime":655.414,"body":"months if you're just gonna stand"},{"startTime":655.414,"endTime":658.294,"body":"there and say you said this and now"},{"startTime":655.414,"endTime":658.294,"body":"you're saying something different?"},{"startTime":658.314,"endTime":659.974,"body":"Sure, that's what Ron's talking about."},{"startTime":659.984,"endTime":661.664,"body":"So the all our requirements"},{"startTime":661.814,"endTime":664.884,"body":"Yeah, they didn't even know what"},{"startTime":661.814,"endTime":664.884,"body":"the requirements were they told"},{"startTime":664.884,"endTime":666.074,"body":"you what they were in good faith"},{"startTime":666.124,"endTime":668.044,"body":"Well,  He kind of"},{"startTime":666.124,"endTime":668.044,"body":"summarizes in this section."},{"startTime":668.044,"endTime":669.544,"body":"He says the bulk of the value."},{"startTime":669.744,"endTime":673.354,"body":"He's saying from the requirements"},{"startTime":669.744,"endTime":673.354,"body":"quote requirements he's invoking the"},{"startTime":673.354,"endTime":677.794,"body":"80 20 rule and saying the bulk of the"},{"startTime":673.354,"endTime":677.794,"body":"value, so, so 80 20 rule, 80 percent"},{"startTime":677.794,"endTime":681.144,"body":"of the value of requirements comes"},{"startTime":677.794,"endTime":681.144,"body":"from a very small, comes from 20"},{"startTime":681.144,"endTime":683.544,"body":"percent of the so called requirements."},{"startTime":683.874,"endTime":689.734,"body":"So, so so, he, he says the, the worst"},{"startTime":683.874,"endTime":689.734,"body":"case scenario, kind of in the last, in"},{"startTime":689.734,"endTime":693.304,"body":"the last paragraph of this, starting with"},{"startTime":689.734,"endTime":693.304,"body":"all our requirements is wrong section."},{"startTime":693.584,"endTime":697.314,"body":"He says, worse yet, when we write down"},{"startTime":693.584,"endTime":697.314,"body":"all our quote requirements, we act"},{"startTime":697.314,"endTime":698.944,"body":"like this is the very last chance."},{"startTime":699.094,"endTime":700.454,"body":"To ask for anything."},{"startTime":700.794,"endTime":703.724,"body":"So the idea is like, well, when you"},{"startTime":700.794,"endTime":703.724,"body":"write everything down, only 20 percent"},{"startTime":703.724,"endTime":710.444,"body":"of that has value or 20 percent of"},{"startTime":703.724,"endTime":710.444,"body":"that has more value as compared to the"},{"startTime":710.444,"endTime":712.154,"body":"rest of everything you've written down."},{"startTime":712.304,"endTime":713.164,"body":"So, I'm fine."},{"startTime":713.284,"endTime":714.064,"body":"Like I'm fine."},{"startTime":714.214,"endTime":719.524,"body":"Applying the super loose and"},{"startTime":714.214,"endTime":719.524,"body":"fast 80 20 rule to, to a, a giant"},{"startTime":719.524,"endTime":721.234,"body":"p r d requirements document."},{"startTime":721.234,"endTime":723.454,"body":"And we did, we did a"},{"startTime":721.234,"endTime":723.454,"body":"podcast on the p d before."},{"startTime":723.454,"endTime":724.114,"body":"Yeah, we did."},{"startTime":724.414,"endTime":726.819,"body":"Now you were like, you were like"},{"startTime":724.414,"endTime":726.819,"body":"I think in that, in that podcast,"},{"startTime":726.969,"endTime":729.429,"body":"not, not to summarize 'cause I'm not"},{"startTime":726.969,"endTime":729.429,"body":"gonna be able to remember it 'cause"},{"startTime":729.434,"endTime":730.809,"body":"it was more than like a day ago."},{"startTime":731.119,"endTime":734.129,"body":"But in that podcast you had"},{"startTime":731.119,"endTime":734.129,"body":"mentioned like, well, it's"},{"startTime":734.129,"endTime":735.329,"body":"supposed to be a living document."},{"startTime":735.329,"endTime":738.359,"body":"You have to go back and update it when it"},{"startTime":735.329,"endTime":738.359,"body":"ha and, and I was like, yeah, but I mean"},{"startTime":738.434,"endTime":742.694,"body":"When I use Jira, like why, why do I need"},{"startTime":738.434,"endTime":742.694,"body":"a separate document if I'm using Jira?"},{"startTime":742.699,"endTime":744.244,"body":"Don't all this stuff lives over there."},{"startTime":744.244,"endTime":747.124,"body":"Why do I have to do, why do I have to"},{"startTime":744.244,"endTime":747.124,"body":"update it in both places and, and if I'm"},{"startTime":747.124,"endTime":750.994,"body":"not updating it in both places, doesn't"},{"startTime":747.124,"endTime":750.994,"body":"the p r d become like a, a snapshot"},{"startTime":750.994,"endTime":755.559,"body":"in time type of like time capsule of"},{"startTime":750.994,"endTime":755.559,"body":"like, At this date, on this whatever, we"},{"startTime":755.559,"endTime":757.149,"body":"thought the project was going to be this."},{"startTime":757.389,"endTime":760.789,"body":"And now, with many, many changes"},{"startTime":757.389,"endTime":760.789,"body":"and discussions over time,"},{"startTime":760.789,"endTime":761.399,"body":"it's going to be different."},{"startTime":761.399,"endTime":765.704,"body":"So you can, you can, after this podcast"},{"startTime":761.399,"endTime":765.704,"body":"is over, you can go back and listen"},{"startTime":765.704,"endTime":768.654,"body":"to our PRD discussion because we,"},{"startTime":765.704,"endTime":768.654,"body":"we took, we touched on a lot, a lot."},{"startTime":768.804,"endTime":770.554,"body":"Of similarities in here,"},{"startTime":770.814,"endTime":771.454,"body":"we absolutely did."},{"startTime":771.554,"endTime":775.204,"body":"It's still in our audience to think"},{"startTime":771.554,"endTime":775.204,"body":"about this 80 20 as an absolute."},{"startTime":775.214,"endTime":776.234,"body":"It could be whatever, right?"},{"startTime":776.444,"endTime":777.034,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":777.064,"endTime":779.274,"body":"The thing about this is back in 2013."},{"startTime":779.684,"endTime":781.674,"body":"There was a lot of this us and them ism."},{"startTime":781.824,"endTime":784.844,"body":"And we always said, well, the customer"},{"startTime":781.824,"endTime":784.844,"body":"doesn't know what they want, right?"},{"startTime":785.079,"endTime":787.819,"body":"They say something and then"},{"startTime":785.079,"endTime":787.819,"body":"they change their mind as if"},{"startTime":787.819,"endTime":789.469,"body":"that was an anomaly, right?"},{"startTime":789.759,"endTime":793.769,"body":"So, that's how we treated it"},{"startTime":789.759,"endTime":793.769,"body":"and we almost penalized them."},{"startTime":793.919,"endTime":795.729,"body":"And we said, look, you change your mind."},{"startTime":795.739,"endTime":797.899,"body":"You have to pay in the"},{"startTime":795.739,"endTime":797.899,"body":"form of a change request."},{"startTime":798.029,"endTime":798.879,"body":"That's more money."},{"startTime":798.879,"endTime":800.329,"body":"And they're like, well,"},{"startTime":798.879,"endTime":800.329,"body":"how's that our fault?"},{"startTime":800.349,"endTime":802.149,"body":"We didn't tell you something wrong."},{"startTime":802.159,"endTime":803.329,"body":"We told you what we knew."},{"startTime":803.479,"endTime":808.519,"body":"To be the right thing at the time and now"},{"startTime":803.479,"endTime":808.519,"body":"time has changed so there was that sort"},{"startTime":808.519,"endTime":812.909,"body":"of dichotomy in place and it was very"},{"startTime":808.519,"endTime":812.909,"body":"difficult to live through especially if"},{"startTime":812.909,"endTime":817.199,"body":"you work for a large organization right"},{"startTime":812.909,"endTime":817.199,"body":"because The numbers were bigger, right?"},{"startTime":817.279,"endTime":818.769,"body":"Then you had competitors."},{"startTime":819.439,"endTime":824.399,"body":"2013 is about the time when some of the"},{"startTime":819.439,"endTime":824.399,"body":"early competitors of yours, whatever"},{"startTime":824.399,"endTime":828.549,"body":"industry you're in started to think about"},{"startTime":824.399,"endTime":828.549,"body":"agile and they started to think, Oh, this"},{"startTime":828.629,"endTime":830.349,"body":"isn't maybe the right way to do things."},{"startTime":830.419,"endTime":831.709,"body":"And they started to embrace."},{"startTime":831.859,"endTime":836.189,"body":"Customers, including your customers,"},{"startTime":831.859,"endTime":836.189,"body":"potentially and say, come on board, right?"},{"startTime":836.189,"endTime":839.619,"body":"We'll work with you and we'll just"},{"startTime":836.189,"endTime":839.619,"body":"kind of figure it out as we go along."},{"startTime":839.659,"endTime":839.969,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":840.119,"endTime":844.799,"body":"And that's what Ron is trying to kind"},{"startTime":840.119,"endTime":844.799,"body":"of summarize here in his article."},{"startTime":844.819,"endTime":845.059,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":845.259,"endTime":847.379,"body":"But that article goes back to 2013."},{"startTime":847.419,"endTime":848.449,"body":"That shows you the."},{"startTime":848.759,"endTime":851.489,"body":"The forward thinking that he"},{"startTime":848.759,"endTime":851.489,"body":"was projecting at the time."},{"startTime":851.639,"endTime":853.779,"body":"All right, let's let's let's cut back now."},{"startTime":853.779,"endTime":857.909,"body":"So he's in the next section, which is"},{"startTime":853.779,"endTime":857.909,"body":"estimating when we'll be done is wrong."},{"startTime":857.909,"endTime":859.189,"body":"Forcing the answer is worse."},{"startTime":859.189,"endTime":860.069,"body":"That's the section here."},{"startTime":860.219,"endTime":864.639,"body":"And the key takeaways, the key takeaway"},{"startTime":860.219,"endTime":864.639,"body":"in this one is he says, well, we, well,"},{"startTime":864.639,"endTime":866.419,"body":"we push back on developers estimates."},{"startTime":866.559,"endTime":869.499,"body":"Leaning harder and"},{"startTime":866.559,"endTime":869.499,"body":"harder until we are sure."},{"startTime":869.499,"endTime":873.249,"body":"We squeezed out all the fat they"},{"startTime":869.499,"endTime":873.249,"body":"have left in their estimate."},{"startTime":873.429,"endTime":877.599,"body":"Sometimes we even just tell them"},{"startTime":873.429,"endTime":877.599,"body":"what, when they have to have it done."},{"startTime":877.779,"endTime":881.509,"body":"So, so and then he, and then, and then"},{"startTime":877.779,"endTime":881.509,"body":"at the bottom, the little tag onto"},{"startTime":881.509,"endTime":885.199,"body":"what I just read is, I'm pretty sure"},{"startTime":881.509,"endTime":885.199,"body":"no one in the room believes that date."},{"startTime":885.409,"endTime":886.009,"body":"If this."},{"startTime":886.159,"endTime":889.389,"body":"If this is a time capsule, this is a"},{"startTime":886.159,"endTime":889.389,"body":"very accurate time capsule, because"},{"startTime":889.389,"endTime":893.209,"body":"again, back in the day, like at the very"},{"startTime":889.389,"endTime":893.209,"body":"beginning of my career, everyone worked"},{"startTime":893.209,"endTime":897.039,"body":"for a developer, QA, whatever, BAs."},{"startTime":897.354,"endTime":901.874,"body":"Documentation, whoever the quote IT"},{"startTime":897.354,"endTime":901.874,"body":"department you all worked for a in"},{"startTime":901.874,"endTime":905.214,"body":"a, it was a matrix environment where"},{"startTime":901.874,"endTime":905.214,"body":"nobody was employed by the project."},{"startTime":905.264,"endTime":907.714,"body":"Actually, that might not be true"},{"startTime":905.264,"endTime":907.714,"body":"because the project manager might"},{"startTime":907.714,"endTime":910.784,"body":"have a budget and the project"},{"startTime":907.714,"endTime":910.784,"body":"manager might go out and hire a team"},{"startTime":911.074,"endTime":913.074,"body":"to implement a software project."},{"startTime":913.224,"endTime":916.524,"body":"So, so, so the project manager"},{"startTime":913.224,"endTime":916.524,"body":"might actually be your employer."},{"startTime":916.714,"endTime":919.704,"body":"So that what I'm about to say isn't"},{"startTime":916.714,"endTime":919.704,"body":"true, but what I was going to say is, you"},{"startTime":919.704,"endTime":925.284,"body":"were hired in by the technical people or"},{"startTime":919.704,"endTime":925.284,"body":"director of development or QA manager or"},{"startTime":925.284,"endTime":929.774,"body":"somebody like that and then you work for"},{"startTime":925.284,"endTime":929.774,"body":"QA But but but you did projects that were"},{"startTime":929.794,"endTime":933.844,"body":"initiated by project managers that had"},{"startTime":929.794,"endTime":933.844,"body":"They had dates and they have budgets and"},{"startTime":933.844,"endTime":938.544,"body":"they have customers and so like that So so"},{"startTime":933.844,"endTime":938.544,"body":"really the project manager was more like"},{"startTime":938.544,"endTime":943.349,"body":"a modern product manager Then anything"},{"startTime":938.544,"endTime":943.349,"body":"else back in the day, even, even though"},{"startTime":943.349,"endTime":945.329,"body":"they didn't really kind of realize that."},{"startTime":945.329,"endTime":945.649,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":945.729,"endTime":945.869,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":945.959,"endTime":951.759,"body":"I think when Ron says that sometimes"},{"startTime":945.959,"endTime":951.759,"body":"there was a date imposed upon the teams,"},{"startTime":951.909,"endTime":956.249,"body":"my experience has been almost always"},{"startTime":951.909,"endTime":956.249,"body":"always back in the day, there was a date"},{"startTime":956.429,"endTime":961.609,"body":"you had a date imposed, inflicted upon"},{"startTime":956.429,"endTime":961.609,"body":"you and then you had to work your way"},{"startTime":961.719,"endTime":965.669,"body":"back from that date and somehow backfill"},{"startTime":961.719,"endTime":965.669,"body":"everything that needed to be done."},{"startTime":965.819,"endTime":966.709,"body":"By that date."},{"startTime":966.829,"endTime":969.879,"body":"Well this is, this also goes back to"},{"startTime":966.829,"endTime":969.879,"body":"the podcast that we had on contracts."},{"startTime":969.889,"endTime":970.069,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":970.379,"endTime":975.379,"body":"Like, you, like contracts, they, they,"},{"startTime":970.379,"endTime":975.379,"body":"they pretty seamlessly weave their way in."},{"startTime":975.454,"endTime":978.974,"body":"You could write a contract that isn't"},{"startTime":975.454,"endTime":978.974,"body":"Oh, all the software has to be delivered"},{"startTime":978.974,"endTime":981.614,"body":"on this date, And all the UAT has"},{"startTime":978.974,"endTime":981.614,"body":"to be done on this date, and all the"},{"startTime":981.614,"endTime":985.094,"body":"whatever has to you, you could write"},{"startTime":981.614,"endTime":985.094,"body":"a contract that doesn't work like"},{"startTime":985.094,"endTime":987.354,"body":"that, But still makes everyone happy."},{"startTime":987.624,"endTime":990.424,"body":"Like, there's no reason you need"},{"startTime":987.624,"endTime":990.424,"body":"to do that, Other than, other than,"},{"startTime":990.494,"endTime":993.484,"body":"of course, Well, this is the only"},{"startTime":990.494,"endTime":993.484,"body":"way we know how to write contracts."},{"startTime":993.634,"endTime":995.264,"body":"This is the way I've written"},{"startTime":993.634,"endTime":995.264,"body":"contracts for 20 years."},{"startTime":995.294,"endTime":996.654,"body":"On this date, you'll deliver that."},{"startTime":996.904,"endTime":998.674,"body":"On that date, we'll accept this."},{"startTime":998.864,"endTime":1001.894,"body":"We get seven days to say"},{"startTime":998.864,"endTime":1001.894,"body":"whether we like it or not."},{"startTime":1002.174,"endTime":1006.464,"body":"You know, we'll take possession of"},{"startTime":1002.174,"endTime":1006.464,"body":"the vehicle on this date, and you"},{"startTime":1006.464,"endTime":1008.294,"body":"will deliver the vehicle on this date."},{"startTime":1008.444,"endTime":1008.784,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1008.934,"endTime":1010.814,"body":"They're applying a different paradigm."},{"startTime":1011.014,"endTime":1013.344,"body":"Ooh, that's a 5 word I"},{"startTime":1011.014,"endTime":1013.344,"body":"haven't said in a podcast."},{"startTime":1013.494,"endTime":1013.564,"body":"Paradigm!"},{"startTime":1013.574,"endTime":1017.104,"body":"They're applying a different"},{"startTime":1013.574,"endTime":1017.104,"body":"paradigm to software development,"},{"startTime":1017.114,"endTime":1018.124,"body":"whereas they should just..."},{"startTime":1018.274,"endTime":1021.054,"body":"Change the contract to be a software"},{"startTime":1018.274,"endTime":1021.054,"body":"development contract, right?"},{"startTime":1021.304,"endTime":1022.734,"body":"You know, we're delivering software."},{"startTime":1022.794,"endTime":1024.964,"body":"We don't know what you"},{"startTime":1022.794,"endTime":1024.964,"body":"want, but, but there will be"},{"startTime":1024.994,"endTime":1026.444,"body":"delivery on a regular interval."},{"startTime":1026.594,"endTime":1029.364,"body":"And at that time you get to"},{"startTime":1026.594,"endTime":1029.364,"body":"inspect what is being delivered."},{"startTime":1029.689,"endTime":1033.439,"body":"Yes, you can say that you what"},{"startTime":1029.689,"endTime":1033.439,"body":"you want in terms of priority."},{"startTime":1033.649,"endTime":1036.139,"body":"I value this over this, but"},{"startTime":1033.649,"endTime":1036.139,"body":"it's all relative to everything"},{"startTime":1036.139,"endTime":1036.989,"body":"that needs to be delivered."},{"startTime":1037.139,"endTime":1039.119,"body":"Back in 2013, it was very difficult."},{"startTime":1039.119,"endTime":1043.279,"body":"It was not like that to come up"},{"startTime":1039.119,"endTime":1043.279,"body":"with the paradigm of continuous"},{"startTime":1043.279,"endTime":1045.509,"body":"delivery over several milestones."},{"startTime":1045.519,"endTime":1049.809,"body":"It was like, This milestone and and part"},{"startTime":1045.519,"endTime":1049.809,"body":"of that underpinning was the fact that"},{"startTime":1049.849,"endTime":1054.269,"body":"people that came up with those dates"},{"startTime":1049.849,"endTime":1054.269,"body":"hint It wasn't the teams people that came"},{"startTime":1054.269,"endTime":1059.239,"body":"up with those dates Were rewarded based"},{"startTime":1054.269,"endTime":1059.239,"body":"on meeting or not meeting those dates."},{"startTime":1059.249,"endTime":1062.009,"body":"So there was a lot of that going"},{"startTime":1059.249,"endTime":1062.009,"body":"on I think we've touched on some of"},{"startTime":1062.009,"endTime":1063.339,"body":"these elements on other podcasts."},{"startTime":1063.529,"endTime":1066.034,"body":"So if you're in Send it on meeting a date."},{"startTime":1066.064,"endTime":1069.544,"body":"You're going to do everything you can in"},{"startTime":1066.064,"endTime":1069.544,"body":"your power to make that date come what"},{"startTime":1069.544,"endTime":1073.844,"body":"may, which is where these teams are like"},{"startTime":1069.544,"endTime":1073.844,"body":"really pushed and pushed and pushed until"},{"startTime":1073.844,"endTime":1075.314,"body":"you squeeze all the fat out of them."},{"startTime":1075.464,"endTime":1079.324,"body":"You do that, but obviously the thing"},{"startTime":1075.464,"endTime":1079.324,"body":"that suffers, even if you could make"},{"startTime":1079.324,"endTime":1083.464,"body":"the deadline is quality, they'll deliver"},{"startTime":1079.324,"endTime":1083.464,"body":"something, they'll push it over the line."},{"startTime":1083.559,"endTime":1087.289,"body":"And then you start to use it and it"},{"startTime":1083.559,"endTime":1087.289,"body":"will be suboptimal to say the least."},{"startTime":1087.319,"endTime":1088.229,"body":"He touches on this."},{"startTime":1088.229,"endTime":1090.109,"body":"Let's, let's get into the next section."},{"startTime":1090.109,"endTime":1091.119,"body":"Cause he does touch on this."},{"startTime":1091.199,"endTime":1094.169,"body":"So in the next section, next"},{"startTime":1091.199,"endTime":1094.169,"body":"section is titled agile teams"},{"startTime":1094.179,"endTime":1096.079,"body":"working short iterations, period."},{"startTime":1096.239,"endTime":1097.609,"body":"They pick an amount of work."},{"startTime":1097.844,"endTime":1099.994,"body":"That they forecast they can accomplish."},{"startTime":1100.119,"endTime":1104.409,"body":"Too often, the product owner or member"},{"startTime":1100.119,"endTime":1104.409,"body":"of management expresses disappointment"},{"startTime":1104.409,"endTime":1109.159,"body":"with the amount of work that the team has"},{"startTime":1104.409,"endTime":1109.159,"body":"chosen, has picked, and encourages them,"},{"startTime":1109.179,"endTime":1115.429,"body":"them being a team, slash urges them, slash"},{"startTime":1109.179,"endTime":1115.429,"body":"demands them, that they take on more work."},{"startTime":1115.709,"endTime":1120.664,"body":"And the quote here is, People"},{"startTime":1115.709,"endTime":1120.664,"body":"need stretch goals, stretch goals."},{"startTime":1120.894,"endTime":1123.564,"body":"I wanted to bring up the idea of"},{"startTime":1120.894,"endTime":1123.564,"body":"stretch goals  I hope it'll land"},{"startTime":1123.564,"endTime":1124.454,"body":"in the middle of this podcast."},{"startTime":1124.674,"endTime":1127.444,"body":"That way most people have stopped"},{"startTime":1124.674,"endTime":1127.444,"body":"listening when I bring up stretch goals"},{"startTime":1127.444,"endTime":1131.989,"body":"because there is a framework out there"},{"startTime":1127.444,"endTime":1131.989,"body":"that specifically has stretch goals."},{"startTime":1132.139,"endTime":1136.809,"body":"As a part of their planning, which"},{"startTime":1132.139,"endTime":1136.809,"body":"is hilarious to me because when I set"},{"startTime":1136.809,"endTime":1141.159,"body":"sprint for my team, I've done this"},{"startTime":1136.809,"endTime":1141.159,"body":"for years, by the way, when I like"},{"startTime":1141.169,"endTime":1144.199,"body":"it, so like like not to be a, like the"},{"startTime":1141.169,"endTime":1144.199,"body":"hipster product manager, there we go."},{"startTime":1144.199,"endTime":1147.739,"body":"That, that should have been our"},{"startTime":1144.199,"endTime":1147.739,"body":"podcast name, hipster product manager."},{"startTime":1147.889,"endTime":1150.439,"body":"The hipster product manager, the"},{"startTime":1147.889,"endTime":1150.439,"body":"hipster agile coach that should"},{"startTime":1150.439,"endTime":1152.914,"body":"have been, we, we're going to create"},{"startTime":1150.439,"endTime":1152.914,"body":"two different YouTube channels now."},{"startTime":1152.999,"endTime":1154.489,"body":"So, there is a framework out there."},{"startTime":1154.589,"endTime":1156.029,"body":"I definitely talked too long."},{"startTime":1156.309,"endTime":1159.309,"body":"There's a framework out there that"},{"startTime":1156.309,"endTime":1159.309,"body":"incorporates stretch goals in the"},{"startTime":1159.309,"endTime":1161.259,"body":"nomenclature that actually is a thing."},{"startTime":1161.319,"endTime":1162.199,"body":"This is your sprint goal."},{"startTime":1162.569,"endTime":1163.759,"body":"And these are your stretch goals."},{"startTime":1163.959,"endTime":1168.149,"body":"So, Again, if you get nothing from this"},{"startTime":1163.959,"endTime":1168.149,"body":"podcast and if I'm going to cut a clip"},{"startTime":1168.149,"endTime":1169.979,"body":"from this podcast, this will be it."},{"startTime":1170.029,"endTime":1170.989,"body":"My name is Brian."},{"startTime":1171.129,"endTime":1172.519,"body":"I am a professional product manager."},{"startTime":1172.599,"endTime":1175.829,"body":"I've been in the business of"},{"startTime":1172.599,"endTime":1175.829,"body":"product management since about 2018."},{"startTime":1176.039,"endTime":1178.409,"body":"And I'm here to tell you, you"},{"startTime":1176.039,"endTime":1178.409,"body":"don't need to stretch goals."},{"startTime":1178.729,"endTime":1179.599,"body":"You just need goals."},{"startTime":1179.709,"endTime":1183.699,"body":"You just need a goal, a goal, one goal,"},{"startTime":1179.709,"endTime":1183.699,"body":"because a team will find it difficult"},{"startTime":1183.699,"endTime":1186.109,"body":"enough to hit one goal quote on time."},{"startTime":1186.259,"endTime":1187.529,"body":"They don't need a thousand goals."},{"startTime":1187.754,"endTime":1190.594,"body":"Starting a sprint, setting one goal."},{"startTime":1190.944,"endTime":1195.684,"body":"The top business priority is this."},{"startTime":1195.854,"endTime":1196.914,"body":"And then fill in the blank."},{"startTime":1197.184,"endTime":1198.684,"body":"The top goal is this."},{"startTime":1198.834,"endTime":1200.184,"body":"I would like to accomplish"},{"startTime":1198.834,"endTime":1200.184,"body":"that in this sprint."},{"startTime":1200.334,"endTime":1203.064,"body":"What the team does not need,"},{"startTime":1200.334,"endTime":1203.064,"body":"and what I feel that his,"},{"startTime":1203.094,"endTime":1204.094,"body":"what is it, undistinguished?"},{"startTime":1204.104,"endTime":1204.504,"body":"Is that what it is, undistinguished?"},{"startTime":1204.504,"endTime":1205.584,"body":"Undistinguished teams."},{"startTime":1205.584,"endTime":1207.004,"body":"What I feel, the differentiation"},{"startTime":1205.584,"endTime":1207.004,"body":"between good teams."},{"startTime":1207.154,"endTime":1211.284,"body":"The best teams and quote,"},{"startTime":1207.154,"endTime":1211.284,"body":"undistinguished teams is, is the"},{"startTime":1211.294,"endTime":1214.774,"body":"product manager coming in and saying"},{"startTime":1211.294,"endTime":1214.774,"body":"like, Here's a laundry list of things."},{"startTime":1214.954,"endTime":1216.354,"body":"You've got to get them all done."},{"startTime":1216.464,"endTime":1218.684,"body":"I have 17 goals."},{"startTime":1218.834,"endTime":1223.894,"body":"As opposed to the businesses"},{"startTime":1218.834,"endTime":1223.894,"body":"to get this one thing done."},{"startTime":1224.084,"endTime":1227.344,"body":"Well, what happens when we accomplish that"},{"startTime":1224.084,"endTime":1227.344,"body":"thing on day three of the sprint, Brian?"},{"startTime":1227.494,"endTime":1230.844,"body":"You, you've achieved the goal and"},{"startTime":1227.494,"endTime":1230.844,"body":"may all your dreams come true."},{"startTime":1230.994,"endTime":1232.374,"body":"Like that's, that's great."},{"startTime":1232.464,"endTime":1233.744,"body":"Fantastic guys."},{"startTime":1234.014,"endTime":1234.714,"body":"Good job."},{"startTime":1234.864,"endTime":1235.914,"body":"You achieved the goal?"},{"startTime":1236.064,"endTime":1238.404,"body":"Well, why not call these"},{"startTime":1236.064,"endTime":1238.404,"body":"other things stretch goals?"},{"startTime":1238.554,"endTime":1241.584,"body":"Why not call those other things optional"},{"startTime":1238.554,"endTime":1241.584,"body":"things that you didn't need to work"},{"startTime":1241.584,"endTime":1244.944,"body":"on if you had to work the whole sprint"},{"startTime":1241.584,"endTime":1244.944,"body":"And like, are, are we counting on"},{"startTime":1244.949,"endTime":1246.384,"body":"what, what, what game are we playing?"},{"startTime":1246.414,"endTime":1246.894,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1246.894,"endTime":1247.254,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1247.259,"endTime":1247.974,"body":"What games are we playing?"},{"startTime":1247.974,"endTime":1248.214,"body":"What game are we playing?"},{"startTime":1248.364,"endTime":1251.454,"body":"Why, why, why not call 'em like,"},{"startTime":1248.364,"endTime":1251.454,"body":"why not call 'em pipe dreams?"},{"startTime":1251.484,"endTime":1251.994,"body":"How about this?"},{"startTime":1252.024,"endTime":1252.504,"body":"How about this?"},{"startTime":1252.624,"endTime":1253.614,"body":"Why not call the sprint?"},{"startTime":1253.774,"endTime":1257.594,"body":"Successful and close the sprint as soon as"},{"startTime":1253.774,"endTime":1257.594,"body":"the goal is done and start a new sprint."},{"startTime":1257.744,"endTime":1259.104,"body":"Oh, we do two weeks sprints."},{"startTime":1259.304,"endTime":1262.434,"body":"Well, if you do two weeks sprints,"},{"startTime":1259.304,"endTime":1262.434,"body":"then how come you finished the goal"},{"startTime":1262.434,"endTime":1263.814,"body":"in the first three days of the sprint?"},{"startTime":1263.824,"endTime":1266.524,"body":"You're under committing maybe, right?"},{"startTime":1266.554,"endTime":1268.794,"body":"I'm thinking about this"},{"startTime":1266.554,"endTime":1268.794,"body":"from a PMO perspective."},{"startTime":1268.934,"endTime":1271.014,"body":"Oh, you finished in"},{"startTime":1268.934,"endTime":1271.014,"body":"three days in the sprint."},{"startTime":1271.024,"endTime":1271.854,"body":"You're under committed."},{"startTime":1272.094,"endTime":1272.764,"body":"So guess what?"},{"startTime":1272.764,"endTime":1275.204,"body":"Next time you start a sprint, I'm"},{"startTime":1272.764,"endTime":1275.204,"body":"going to give you 10 times that."},{"startTime":1275.234,"endTime":1277.384,"body":"Well, five times that really, right?"},{"startTime":1277.574,"endTime":1280.784,"body":"So that you can have 10"},{"startTime":1277.574,"endTime":1280.784,"body":"of those plus the five."},{"startTime":1280.934,"endTime":1284.724,"body":"Stretch goals are one of those things"},{"startTime":1280.934,"endTime":1284.724,"body":"where when, when you as a team member,"},{"startTime":1284.734,"endTime":1287.804,"body":"whatever your role is on the team,"},{"startTime":1284.734,"endTime":1287.804,"body":"when you are presented with stretch"},{"startTime":1287.804,"endTime":1292.244,"body":"goals, your immediate counter should"},{"startTime":1287.804,"endTime":1292.244,"body":"be, if I meet that stretch goal,"},{"startTime":1292.294,"endTime":1293.444,"body":"how much are you going to pay me?"},{"startTime":1293.594,"endTime":1293.964,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1294.144,"endTime":1296.724,"body":"Because there's no incentive"},{"startTime":1294.144,"endTime":1296.724,"body":"to meet stretch goals."},{"startTime":1296.724,"endTime":1300.524,"body":"To your point, you finish in three"},{"startTime":1296.724,"endTime":1300.524,"body":"days of a ten day sprint, you finish"},{"startTime":1300.524,"endTime":1302.574,"body":"the one and only valuable goal."},{"startTime":1302.869,"endTime":1307.069,"body":"That the team has decided"},{"startTime":1302.869,"endTime":1307.069,"body":"upon or however, right."},{"startTime":1307.119,"endTime":1309.049,"body":"Been dictated, but you finished it."},{"startTime":1309.239,"endTime":1310.369,"body":"Then what does the team do?"},{"startTime":1310.444,"endTime":1312.724,"body":"You can start saying things"},{"startTime":1310.444,"endTime":1312.724,"body":"like, well, do some team building"},{"startTime":1312.724,"endTime":1314.084,"body":"exercises, this and that."},{"startTime":1314.234,"endTime":1317.094,"body":"Yeah, most of the management isn't"},{"startTime":1314.234,"endTime":1317.094,"body":"going to like that because they're"},{"startTime":1317.094,"endTime":1318.404,"body":"going to look at that as a waste."},{"startTime":1318.404,"endTime":1320.824,"body":"And they're going to say, start"},{"startTime":1318.404,"endTime":1320.824,"body":"working on the next actual goal."},{"startTime":1321.164,"endTime":1324.014,"body":"So then it morphs very quickly from"},{"startTime":1321.164,"endTime":1324.014,"body":"that to, you should have a goal."},{"startTime":1324.164,"endTime":1325.944,"body":"One goal you say cool."},{"startTime":1326.094,"endTime":1329.004,"body":"I'm on board with that one goal"},{"startTime":1326.094,"endTime":1329.004,"body":"and then five stretch goals."},{"startTime":1329.154,"endTime":1333.474,"body":"So the team has never Standing back,"},{"startTime":1329.154,"endTime":1333.474,"body":"looking at their process, looking at"},{"startTime":1333.484,"endTime":1335.464,"body":"what else can be done, et cetera, right?"},{"startTime":1335.614,"endTime":1339.474,"body":"If you finish a stretch goal and"},{"startTime":1335.614,"endTime":1339.474,"body":"you start the next sprint, I bet you"},{"startTime":1339.484,"endTime":1343.144,"body":"you're going to get at least two,"},{"startTime":1339.484,"endTime":1343.144,"body":"maybe three, maybe four stretch goals."},{"startTime":1343.184,"endTime":1346.294,"body":"Because they know that you"},{"startTime":1343.184,"endTime":1346.294,"body":"under committed, or they think"},{"startTime":1346.294,"endTime":1347.594,"body":"you under committed, right?"},{"startTime":1347.814,"endTime":1350.134,"body":"So, just be wary of that, right?"},{"startTime":1350.174,"endTime":1354.384,"body":"Stretch to me says, my definition of"},{"startTime":1350.174,"endTime":1354.384,"body":"stretch is really, really simple, right?"},{"startTime":1354.414,"endTime":1358.474,"body":"Which is, time and again, we've been"},{"startTime":1354.414,"endTime":1358.474,"body":"Hitting this cadence, right, of meeting"},{"startTime":1358.624,"endTime":1362.014,"body":"X number of goals, two goals, three"},{"startTime":1358.624,"endTime":1362.014,"body":"goals, and every goal is different."},{"startTime":1362.024,"endTime":1366.719,"body":"So it's not just the number, it's, it's"},{"startTime":1362.024,"endTime":1366.719,"body":"on context a goal for a sprint might be"},{"startTime":1366.729,"endTime":1368.439,"body":"different than a goal for the next sprint."},{"startTime":1368.469,"endTime":1371.339,"body":"It could be more challenging, it"},{"startTime":1368.469,"endTime":1371.339,"body":"could be more complex, could be."},{"startTime":1371.549,"endTime":1373.409,"body":"The team gets to say what that is though."},{"startTime":1373.484,"endTime":1376.759,"body":"I think the helpful, the helpful"},{"startTime":1373.484,"endTime":1376.759,"body":"context here and the helpful"},{"startTime":1376.764,"endTime":1380.679,"body":"pushback is it's hard enough for the"},{"startTime":1376.764,"endTime":1380.679,"body":"development team to hit one goal."},{"startTime":1381.009,"endTime":1381.219,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1381.249,"endTime":1382.839,"body":"Why, why do you need 15 goals?"},{"startTime":1382.839,"endTime":1384.189,"body":"Well, you don't, why"},{"startTime":1382.839,"endTime":1384.189,"body":"do you need five goals?"},{"startTime":1384.454,"endTime":1387.614,"body":"Like, you, you hit your one"},{"startTime":1384.454,"endTime":1387.614,"body":"goal, accomplish it, close"},{"startTime":1387.624,"endTime":1388.954,"body":"sprint done, start a new sprint."},{"startTime":1389.064,"endTime":1393.304,"body":"If the concern is, well, we finished"},{"startTime":1389.064,"endTime":1393.304,"body":"the goal in three days and we have"},{"startTime":1393.504,"endTime":1394.934,"body":"seven more days of the sprint."},{"startTime":1395.014,"endTime":1395.894,"body":"What are we going to do?"},{"startTime":1396.024,"endTime":1399.584,"body":"Like that, that's, that's an issue to"},{"startTime":1396.024,"endTime":1399.584,"body":"deal with in your retrospective to talk"},{"startTime":1399.584,"endTime":1403.544,"body":"about older than why, why, how often your"},{"startTime":1399.584,"endTime":1403.544,"body":"sprint goals accomplished relative to how"},{"startTime":1403.544,"endTime":1406.464,"body":"long the sprint is because that might be"},{"startTime":1403.544,"endTime":1406.464,"body":"a problem with the length of your sprint."},{"startTime":1406.614,"endTime":1409.694,"body":"Well, it might be also a problem of"},{"startTime":1406.614,"endTime":1409.694,"body":"not treating every goal differently,"},{"startTime":1409.704,"endTime":1412.834,"body":"because if you're treating every goal the"},{"startTime":1409.704,"endTime":1412.834,"body":"same, you can say, well, this goal was"},{"startTime":1412.834,"endTime":1417.289,"body":"finished in three days, so we should have"},{"startTime":1412.834,"endTime":1417.289,"body":"maybe three goals next sprint, right?"},{"startTime":1417.319,"endTime":1419.029,"body":"And then maybe you won't"},{"startTime":1417.319,"endTime":1419.029,"body":"be able to meet those."},{"startTime":1419.079,"endTime":1419.639,"body":"Who knows?"},{"startTime":1419.989,"endTime":1420.319,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1420.629,"endTime":1421.899,"body":"So that, that's the other thing."},{"startTime":1421.899,"endTime":1423.029,"body":"It's not linear."},{"startTime":1423.169,"endTime":1423.979,"body":"That was my point."},{"startTime":1423.989,"endTime":1424.969,"body":"It's not linear."},{"startTime":1424.979,"endTime":1427.059,"body":"You can definitely stop"},{"startTime":1424.979,"endTime":1427.059,"body":"a sprint at any point."},{"startTime":1427.209,"endTime":1431.799,"body":"There's no rule that says you have to"},{"startTime":1427.209,"endTime":1431.799,"body":"work ten days, even if you finish in three"},{"startTime":1431.799,"endTime":1433.799,"body":"days, and you've met your sprint goal."},{"startTime":1434.084,"endTime":1437.474,"body":"You can pick up another sprint or"},{"startTime":1434.084,"endTime":1437.474,"body":"you can say, well, we're on the same"},{"startTime":1437.474,"endTime":1440.564,"body":"sprint, but we'll pick up a goal"},{"startTime":1437.474,"endTime":1440.564,"body":"that will fit in the next seven days."},{"startTime":1440.569,"endTime":1440.674,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1440.824,"endTime":1441.034,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1441.094,"endTime":1444.214,"body":"I prefer the latter just because"},{"startTime":1441.094,"endTime":1444.214,"body":"I like the cadence based approach."},{"startTime":1444.364,"endTime":1446.584,"body":"cause it, it disrupts"},{"startTime":1444.364,"endTime":1446.584,"body":"less than it, you know."},{"startTime":1446.704,"endTime":1446.884,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1447.054,"endTime":1447.744,"body":"The other way."},{"startTime":1447.744,"endTime":1450.774,"body":"But yeah, I, I, I'm, I'm starting"},{"startTime":1447.744,"endTime":1450.774,"body":"to feel that the whole concept of"},{"startTime":1450.774,"endTime":1454.374,"body":"stretch goals needs to be taken"},{"startTime":1450.774,"endTime":1454.374,"body":"offline for another podcast."},{"startTime":1454.374,"endTime":1455.004,"body":"I, I love it."},{"startTime":1455.024,"endTime":1459.749,"body":"The downside as a habitual pattern"},{"startTime":1455.024,"endTime":1459.749,"body":"with your management is . If you're"},{"startTime":1459.749,"endTime":1462.379,"body":"taking stretch goals and even"},{"startTime":1459.749,"endTime":1462.379,"body":"if you meet one or two of them."},{"startTime":1462.529,"endTime":1467.099,"body":"They expect you to take stretch"},{"startTime":1462.529,"endTime":1467.099,"body":"goals period and that's bad, right?"},{"startTime":1467.099,"endTime":1470.739,"body":"Because your actual goal could be"},{"startTime":1467.099,"endTime":1470.739,"body":"enough to consume your entire sprint."},{"startTime":1470.929,"endTime":1474.759,"body":"Yeah, so that's bad because it"},{"startTime":1470.929,"endTime":1474.759,"body":"becomes an expectation Even worse"},{"startTime":1474.819,"endTime":1478.099,"body":"is you take two stretch goals three"},{"startTime":1474.819,"endTime":1478.099,"body":"stretch goals and you meet one."},{"startTime":1478.249,"endTime":1479.819,"body":"They're gonna say You met one."},{"startTime":1479.849,"endTime":1481.009,"body":"Why can't you meet another one?"},{"startTime":1481.019,"endTime":1485.479,"body":"So there, to this point, to Ron's"},{"startTime":1481.019,"endTime":1485.479,"body":"point on this blog, they are squeezing"},{"startTime":1485.479,"endTime":1488.259,"body":"you until there's no fat left, right?"},{"startTime":1488.279,"endTime":1491.089,"body":"And that's also not a good"},{"startTime":1488.279,"endTime":1491.089,"body":"thing from a team perspective."},{"startTime":1491.239,"endTime":1492.479,"body":"Well, I definitely agree with that."},{"startTime":1492.529,"endTime":1495.819,"body":"The next section is called having"},{"startTime":1492.529,"endTime":1495.819,"body":"Having demanded the impossible"},{"startTime":1495.999,"endTime":1498.469,"body":"management asks for better estimates."},{"startTime":1498.469,"endTime":1500.579,"body":"So I have a couple of things"},{"startTime":1498.469,"endTime":1500.579,"body":"called out for us to talk about."},{"startTime":1500.859,"endTime":1506.169,"body":"He says management tries to force the team"},{"startTime":1500.859,"endTime":1506.169,"body":"to do more than they can do demanding that"},{"startTime":1506.179,"endTime":1508.329,"body":"the team quote, become more productive."},{"startTime":1508.614,"endTime":1512.294,"body":"Which means quote, go faster,"},{"startTime":1508.614,"endTime":1512.294,"body":"promise more and get it done."},{"startTime":1512.524,"endTime":1515.824,"body":"Which is also my gripe in"},{"startTime":1512.524,"endTime":1515.824,"body":"corporate America with OKRs"},{"startTime":1516.164,"endTime":1517.564,"body":"because this is the way I see Orca."},{"startTime":1517.744,"endTime":1520.964,"body":"OKRs are not supposed to be"},{"startTime":1517.744,"endTime":1520.964,"body":"pushed down, pushed down."},{"startTime":1520.974,"endTime":1521.954,"body":"They're supposed to be pulled."},{"startTime":1522.244,"endTime":1522.554,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1522.784,"endTime":1523.994,"body":"And this is, this is my main gripe."},{"startTime":1523.994,"endTime":1525.134,"body":"So I agree with that."},{"startTime":1525.444,"endTime":1527.344,"body":"A few more things I want to"},{"startTime":1525.444,"endTime":1527.344,"body":"highlight before we open this up."},{"startTime":1527.344,"endTime":1528.874,"body":"I believe really works out well."},{"startTime":1528.874,"endTime":1532.284,"body":"He says they'll begin to"},{"startTime":1528.874,"endTime":1532.284,"body":"overestimate everything in order"},{"startTime":1532.284,"endTime":1533.404,"body":"to get things done quickly."},{"startTime":1533.404,"endTime":1535.624,"body":"They'll cut back on important"},{"startTime":1533.404,"endTime":1535.624,"body":"aspects of the work."},{"startTime":1535.944,"endTime":1537.584,"body":"There'll be sweeping"},{"startTime":1535.944,"endTime":1537.584,"body":"the dirt under the rug."},{"startTime":1537.924,"endTime":1540.464,"body":"That same thing that that you're"},{"startTime":1537.924,"endTime":1540.464,"body":"talking about with testing cutting"},{"startTime":1540.474,"endTime":1541.634,"body":"back on testing, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1541.864,"endTime":1545.854,"body":"That's exactly what happens here"},{"startTime":1541.864,"endTime":1545.854,"body":"when you start, squeezing teams to"},{"startTime":1545.854,"endTime":1547.374,"body":"get done faster, faster, faster."},{"startTime":1547.374,"endTime":1550.204,"body":"So he says this slope is very slippery."},{"startTime":1550.329,"endTime":1554.509,"body":"Let's consider first long term planning"},{"startTime":1550.329,"endTime":1554.509,"body":"and then short term planning because"},{"startTime":1554.619,"endTime":1558.389,"body":"he has an exchange in here that I'm"},{"startTime":1554.619,"endTime":1558.389,"body":"not going to read, but basically is the"},{"startTime":1558.389,"endTime":1562.709,"body":"idea is someone comes and asks how long"},{"startTime":1558.389,"endTime":1562.709,"body":"will it take to To get the entire quote"},{"startTime":1562.739,"endTime":1567.859,"body":"project done and then the team say well"},{"startTime":1562.739,"endTime":1567.859,"body":"We're working in iterations and we're"},{"startTime":1567.859,"endTime":1570.179,"body":"doing the most important thing after"},{"startTime":1567.859,"endTime":1570.179,"body":"the most important thing after the most"},{"startTime":1570.179,"endTime":1574.079,"body":"important thing So we can't tell you"},{"startTime":1570.179,"endTime":1574.079,"body":"how long it's gonna take to do all the"},{"startTime":1574.079,"endTime":1578.119,"body":"requirements So there's there's these this"},{"startTime":1574.079,"endTime":1578.119,"body":"dichotomy this this sort of like these"},{"startTime":1578.119,"endTime":1582.534,"body":"two perspectives are kind of clashing in"},{"startTime":1578.119,"endTime":1582.534,"body":"his world And then he goes into this story"},{"startTime":1582.684,"endTime":1584.314,"body":"which I think is a really good story."},{"startTime":1584.544,"endTime":1585.874,"body":"You can read all about it though."},{"startTime":1585.884,"endTime":1587.774,"body":"We'll put the link to this blog."},{"startTime":1587.854,"endTime":1592.304,"body":"It goes into this story about working"},{"startTime":1587.854,"endTime":1592.304,"body":"for Sue Unger, the CIO of Chrysler"},{"startTime":1592.304,"endTime":1597.054,"body":"Corporation with Kent Beck which I think"},{"startTime":1592.304,"endTime":1597.054,"body":"is a very, very, very interesting story."},{"startTime":1597.064,"endTime":1600.064,"body":"It'd be worth reading on the podcast,"},{"startTime":1597.064,"endTime":1600.064,"body":"but it's a fairly long story."},{"startTime":1600.294,"endTime":1604.654,"body":"But the concept is that they were"},{"startTime":1600.294,"endTime":1604.654,"body":"building a payroll system and that the"},{"startTime":1604.654,"endTime":1608.814,"body":"project as it went on, they said, hey,"},{"startTime":1604.654,"endTime":1608.814,"body":"we're going to build the most valuable"},{"startTime":1608.834,"endTime":1613.564,"body":"things and then we're going to give the"},{"startTime":1608.834,"endTime":1613.564,"body":"product owner who is a domain expert  full"},{"startTime":1613.604,"endTime":1618.674,"body":"empowerment to cancel the project should"},{"startTime":1613.604,"endTime":1618.674,"body":"she feel that it's not producing anymore."},{"startTime":1618.824,"endTime":1621.514,"body":"And which eventually apparently happens."},{"startTime":1621.614,"endTime":1623.284,"body":"And she gave a commitment to do that."},{"startTime":1623.334,"endTime":1623.624,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1623.834,"endTime":1624.854,"body":"Yeah, which is great."},{"startTime":1625.104,"endTime":1626.414,"body":"That's pretty rare too."},{"startTime":1626.564,"endTime":1628.444,"body":"And apparently also Sue Unger was..."},{"startTime":1628.594,"endTime":1632.514,"body":"It was a payroll system at Chrysler"},{"startTime":1628.594,"endTime":1632.514,"body":"and Sue Unger apparently was a subject"},{"startTime":1632.534,"endTime":1634.454,"body":"matter expert on that system as well."},{"startTime":1634.584,"endTime":1637.154,"body":"So she really knew the features"},{"startTime":1634.584,"endTime":1637.154,"body":"that were being delivered."},{"startTime":1637.364,"endTime":1640.354,"body":"She really knew which ones were making"},{"startTime":1637.364,"endTime":1640.354,"body":"an impact and which ones were not."},{"startTime":1640.664,"endTime":1645.284,"body":"Yeah, and the project was ultimately"},{"startTime":1640.664,"endTime":1645.284,"body":"cancelled largely because of politics."},{"startTime":1645.434,"endTime":1648.634,"body":"In the end, because again,"},{"startTime":1645.434,"endTime":1648.634,"body":"that plays its role, right?"},{"startTime":1648.784,"endTime":1653.634,"body":"In this case, they were lucky in that they"},{"startTime":1648.784,"endTime":1653.634,"body":"had a SME who also was somebody who was"},{"startTime":1653.634,"endTime":1656.674,"body":"empowered to make the decision on whether"},{"startTime":1653.634,"endTime":1656.674,"body":"to continue the project or cancel it."},{"startTime":1656.834,"endTime":1659.784,"body":"So he recognized the fact that"},{"startTime":1656.834,"endTime":1659.784,"body":"not the whole thing had to"},{"startTime":1659.784,"endTime":1661.074,"body":"be ripped out and replaced."},{"startTime":1661.124,"endTime":1663.474,"body":"Like there were parts that"},{"startTime":1661.124,"endTime":1663.474,"body":"didn't need to be changed."},{"startTime":1663.484,"endTime":1663.864,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1663.864,"endTime":1667.384,"body":"That's his summary is that parts of"},{"startTime":1663.864,"endTime":1667.384,"body":"the old payroll system were just fine."},{"startTime":1667.594,"endTime":1668.584,"body":"They didn't need to be replaced."},{"startTime":1668.874,"endTime":1674.014,"body":"Other parts never belong to payroll at"},{"startTime":1668.874,"endTime":1674.014,"body":"all like tax And other external programs."},{"startTime":1674.164,"endTime":1677.834,"body":"So really, he's saying, don't rebuild"},{"startTime":1674.164,"endTime":1677.834,"body":"the Franken monster that you have now."},{"startTime":1677.884,"endTime":1679.354,"body":"Like, I mean, whatever, right?"},{"startTime":1679.364,"endTime":1682.474,"body":"If you have something and you're trying"},{"startTime":1679.364,"endTime":1682.474,"body":"to just build a new system to replicate"},{"startTime":1682.474,"endTime":1685.264,"body":"that, you don't really need a new system."},{"startTime":1685.514,"endTime":1687.924,"body":"Well, he has this, this"},{"startTime":1685.514,"endTime":1687.924,"body":"passage right here."},{"startTime":1688.074,"endTime":1688.394,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1688.544,"endTime":1691.594,"body":"So he says, what we should have done"},{"startTime":1688.544,"endTime":1691.594,"body":"and could have done is solve the"},{"startTime":1691.594,"endTime":1696.514,"body":"problems one after another in order"},{"startTime":1691.594,"endTime":1696.514,"body":"that Mary Marie, Marie, and the other"},{"startTime":1696.724,"endTime":1698.434,"body":"payroll people wanted to be solved."},{"startTime":1698.494,"endTime":1698.734,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1698.884,"endTime":1699.094,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1699.094,"endTime":1702.634,"body":"So build a system that solves the"},{"startTime":1699.094,"endTime":1702.634,"body":"real problems that you know about"},{"startTime":1702.634,"endTime":1706.474,"body":"at the time, rather than replicate"},{"startTime":1702.634,"endTime":1706.474,"body":"the functionality of an order system"},{"startTime":1706.474,"endTime":1708.494,"body":"with new technology basically."},{"startTime":1708.664,"endTime":1710.829,"body":"And then here's the other passage."},{"startTime":1710.954,"endTime":1714.234,"body":"The payroll held up as one of the original"},{"startTime":1710.954,"endTime":1714.234,"body":"successes and original failures of"},{"startTime":1714.244,"endTime":1717.894,"body":"Agile would very likely have been more"},{"startTime":1714.244,"endTime":1717.894,"body":"successful had it not assumed the job"},{"startTime":1717.894,"endTime":1720.174,"body":"was to predict when it would all be done."},{"startTime":1720.404,"endTime":1723.264,"body":"Or even track the project"},{"startTime":1720.404,"endTime":1723.264,"body":"when it would be done."},{"startTime":1723.264,"endTime":1724.784,"body":"Not even track it is what he's saying."},{"startTime":1724.784,"endTime":1725.074,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1725.199,"endTime":1729.019,"body":"The job was convening a team to solve"},{"startTime":1725.199,"endTime":1729.019,"body":"the problems of the payroll organization."},{"startTime":1729.169,"endTime":1729.589,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1729.739,"endTime":1730.749,"body":"Probably department, right?"},{"startTime":1731.049,"endTime":1731.309,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1731.409,"endTime":1735.109,"body":"And when the return on that"},{"startTime":1731.409,"endTime":1735.109,"body":"investment declined to move on."},{"startTime":1735.159,"endTime":1735.619,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1735.769,"endTime":1736.129,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1736.224,"endTime":1737.584,"body":"When we were thinking"},{"startTime":1736.224,"endTime":1737.584,"body":"about doing this topic."},{"startTime":1737.734,"endTime":1741.104,"body":"This passage stuck out at"},{"startTime":1737.734,"endTime":1741.104,"body":"me because it pretty clearly"},{"startTime":1741.104,"endTime":1742.964,"body":"is a now next later roadmap."},{"startTime":1742.984,"endTime":1746.704,"body":"And when you decide like, Hey, this"},{"startTime":1742.984,"endTime":1746.704,"body":"is everything I'm doing now, this"},{"startTime":1746.704,"endTime":1748.184,"body":"is everything in the next category."},{"startTime":1748.334,"endTime":1751.564,"body":"And these are the things I decided"},{"startTime":1748.334,"endTime":1751.564,"body":"to do later when that next category"},{"startTime":1751.724,"endTime":1756.184,"body":"starts looking kind of droll when it"},{"startTime":1751.724,"endTime":1756.184,"body":"starts looking like not so alluring"},{"startTime":1756.334,"endTime":1759.024,"body":"and you are funding the quote project."},{"startTime":1759.174,"endTime":1759.954,"body":"There's nothing to say."},{"startTime":1759.954,"endTime":1763.694,"body":"Like, listen, I don't really care about"},{"startTime":1759.954,"endTime":1763.694,"body":"the next category and everything is later."},{"startTime":1763.844,"endTime":1764.474,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1764.474,"endTime":1765.804,"body":"Like, do we you know what?"},{"startTime":1765.874,"endTime":1767.374,"body":"I think I've got enough functionality."},{"startTime":1767.604,"endTime":1768.904,"body":"I think I'm going to stop the funding."},{"startTime":1769.014,"endTime":1769.474,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1769.624,"endTime":1770.254,"body":"Completely."},{"startTime":1770.524,"endTime":1776.004,"body":"Again, our whole podcast on roadmaps where"},{"startTime":1770.524,"endTime":1776.004,"body":"I, where I was saying you should only do."},{"startTime":1776.254,"endTime":1778.774,"body":"Now, next later, you should not"},{"startTime":1776.254,"endTime":1778.774,"body":"put everything on a timeline"},{"startTime":1778.804,"endTime":1781.934,"body":"because this garbage, this is"},{"startTime":1778.804,"endTime":1781.934,"body":"exactly what I'm talking about."},{"startTime":1782.084,"endTime":1787.374,"body":"I, the person funding the, quote,"},{"startTime":1782.084,"endTime":1787.374,"body":"project, can decide, you know what,"},{"startTime":1787.604,"endTime":1789.964,"body":"I've got enough functionality, I'm good."},{"startTime":1790.114,"endTime":1796.154,"body":"Let's just stop, stop paying for"},{"startTime":1790.114,"endTime":1796.154,"body":"this, move on, thanks team, go on to"},{"startTime":1796.154,"endTime":1797.864,"body":"your greener pastures or whatever."},{"startTime":1797.874,"endTime":1800.154,"body":"Exactly, yeah, I couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":1800.154,"endTime":1802.064,"body":"See, you don't have to necessarily..."},{"startTime":1802.414,"endTime":1806.064,"body":"Chase that every single"},{"startTime":1802.414,"endTime":1806.064,"body":"last piece of functionality."},{"startTime":1806.214,"endTime":1809.784,"body":"I think this is where Ron was"},{"startTime":1806.214,"endTime":1809.784,"body":"at in 2013, and we're still"},{"startTime":1809.784,"endTime":1811.414,"body":"talking about that today, right?"},{"startTime":1811.664,"endTime":1816.774,"body":"And he's, his His blog is more of a"},{"startTime":1811.664,"endTime":1816.774,"body":"reflection on what should have happened."},{"startTime":1816.924,"endTime":1820.294,"body":"To this day, I'm seeing"},{"startTime":1816.924,"endTime":1820.294,"body":"companies that do this, fall"},{"startTime":1820.294,"endTime":1822.444,"body":"foul of this whole thing, right?"},{"startTime":1822.564,"endTime":1823.874,"body":"Ten years later, right?"},{"startTime":1823.874,"endTime":1827.744,"body":"They're still doing that because they say,"},{"startTime":1823.874,"endTime":1827.744,"body":"well this budget was for this project."},{"startTime":1828.044,"endTime":1831.264,"body":"So we have to spend it because if"},{"startTime":1828.044,"endTime":1831.264,"body":"we don't spend it, we'll lose it."},{"startTime":1831.284,"endTime":1834.194,"body":"Well, that, that, again, like"},{"startTime":1831.284,"endTime":1834.194,"body":"he points out in his next..."},{"startTime":1834.419,"endTime":1836.709,"body":"Section that says how big is this project"},{"startTime":1837.084,"endTime":1841.624,"body":"he says like this this mindset"},{"startTime":1837.084,"endTime":1841.624,"body":"survives that that you know before"},{"startTime":1841.624,"endTime":1844.384,"body":"the business engages something that"},{"startTime":1841.624,"endTime":1844.384,"body":"commits money to something They"},{"startTime":1844.384,"endTime":1851.354,"body":"want to know quote how how long is"},{"startTime":1844.384,"endTime":1851.354,"body":"this gonna take when the reality is?"},{"startTime":1851.504,"endTime":1853.404,"body":"Well, they don't know, they"},{"startTime":1851.504,"endTime":1853.404,"body":"don't even know what they want."},{"startTime":1853.414,"endTime":1853.854,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1854.074,"endTime":1855.554,"body":"When they're asking how"},{"startTime":1854.074,"endTime":1855.554,"body":"long is it going to take."},{"startTime":1855.734,"endTime":1858.734,"body":"So, how are you going to tell"},{"startTime":1855.734,"endTime":1858.734,"body":"them how long it's going to take?"},{"startTime":1858.814,"endTime":1859.874,"body":"They don't know what they want yet."},{"startTime":1859.964,"endTime":1860.054,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1860.124,"endTime":1864.134,"body":"You have to engage in an exploratory"},{"startTime":1860.124,"endTime":1864.134,"body":"period of software development where"},{"startTime":1864.144,"endTime":1865.384,"body":"you're building stuff for them."},{"startTime":1865.534,"endTime":1867.594,"body":"Before they even know what they want."},{"startTime":1867.624,"endTime":1870.654,"body":"Well, so this requires that trust"},{"startTime":1867.624,"endTime":1870.654,"body":"and that and that assumes that"},{"startTime":1870.664,"endTime":1872.384,"body":"you're you're skilled, right?"},{"startTime":1872.724,"endTime":1875.714,"body":"If you're a new team, you don't"},{"startTime":1872.724,"endTime":1875.714,"body":"know how to vet that out of there."},{"startTime":1875.894,"endTime":1877.234,"body":"You're actually done for that."},{"startTime":1877.334,"endTime":1883.374,"body":"So this requires that trust that we stop"},{"startTime":1877.334,"endTime":1883.374,"body":"talking about the customer as they, right?"},{"startTime":1883.524,"endTime":1886.004,"body":"This requires the trust where"},{"startTime":1883.524,"endTime":1886.004,"body":"you say, let's figure out"},{"startTime":1886.004,"endTime":1888.234,"body":"what their real needs are."},{"startTime":1888.384,"endTime":1892.444,"body":"Let's talk to them about their wants,"},{"startTime":1888.384,"endTime":1892.444,"body":"wishes and desires as well, right?"},{"startTime":1892.464,"endTime":1896.494,"body":"We'll map them on a on a chart and"},{"startTime":1892.464,"endTime":1896.494,"body":"say You're funding for your needs."},{"startTime":1896.524,"endTime":1897.414,"body":"We're going to meet your needs."},{"startTime":1897.564,"endTime":1900.934,"body":"If you can even do that much,"},{"startTime":1897.564,"endTime":1900.934,"body":"you're doing really, really well."},{"startTime":1901.194,"endTime":1905.594,"body":"Well, in the article, he has a section"},{"startTime":1901.194,"endTime":1905.594,"body":"that I think is fairly enlightening."},{"startTime":1905.814,"endTime":1910.244,"body":"He says, most of the time, they, quote"},{"startTime":1905.814,"endTime":1910.244,"body":"they, again, we're assuming we're dealing"},{"startTime":1910.244,"endTime":1911.614,"body":"with this old school mentality, right?"},{"startTime":1911.764,"endTime":1916.174,"body":"Most of, or maybe not old school,"},{"startTime":1911.764,"endTime":1916.174,"body":"but the CFO look viewpoint, right?"},{"startTime":1916.204,"endTime":1916.904,"body":"The CFO viewpoint."},{"startTime":1917.054,"endTime":1918.094,"body":"Most of the time, they..."},{"startTime":1918.324,"endTime":1921.554,"body":"No, how many people they'll"},{"startTime":1918.324,"endTime":1921.554,"body":"give us and how much time they"},{"startTime":1921.554,"endTime":1922.614,"body":"want to commit to this man."},{"startTime":1922.754,"endTime":1925.434,"body":"And I turn his time comment"},{"startTime":1922.754,"endTime":1925.434,"body":"directly into money."},{"startTime":1925.564,"endTime":1928.494,"body":"They know how much they know how much"},{"startTime":1925.564,"endTime":1928.494,"body":"budget they want to throw at the problem"},{"startTime":1928.494,"endTime":1929.534,"body":"to see if they can figure it out."},{"startTime":1929.684,"endTime":1933.694,"body":"And they do that head shaking"},{"startTime":1929.684,"endTime":1933.694,"body":"until we quote estimate the numbers"},{"startTime":1933.694,"endTime":1935.384,"body":"that they already had in mind."},{"startTime":1935.534,"endTime":1937.264,"body":"So we should turn a question around."},{"startTime":1937.424,"endTime":1941.074,"body":"How much do you want to spend"},{"startTime":1937.424,"endTime":1941.074,"body":"and what you hope to see?"},{"startTime":1941.404,"endTime":1945.869,"body":"In the product which again is is kind"},{"startTime":1941.404,"endTime":1945.869,"body":"of the the underpinning of modern"},{"startTime":1945.869,"endTime":1949.239,"body":"product management everything He wrote"},{"startTime":1945.869,"endTime":1949.239,"body":"in this article a decade ago, right?"},{"startTime":1949.239,"endTime":1954.289,"body":"He says if no one knows and no one"},{"startTime":1949.239,"endTime":1954.289,"body":"has an idea Odds are the project"},{"startTime":1954.289,"endTime":1958.239,"body":"is too vague and too big and it"},{"startTime":1954.289,"endTime":1958.239,"body":"really shouldn't be doing it Anyway!"},{"startTime":1958.569,"endTime":1959.679,"body":"Ding ding ding ding, right?"},{"startTime":1959.689,"endTime":1960.569,"body":"That's the alarm bell."},{"startTime":1960.569,"endTime":1962.429,"body":"So run away is what he says."},{"startTime":1962.429,"endTime":1965.519,"body":"Those are the two words He uses"},{"startTime":1962.429,"endTime":1965.519,"body":"right there next But I think you"},{"startTime":1965.519,"endTime":1971.319,"body":"have to have your organization be"},{"startTime":1965.519,"endTime":1971.319,"body":"bold and say, this is too risky and"},{"startTime":1971.369,"endTime":1973.289,"body":"we're going to decline the business."},{"startTime":1973.359,"endTime":1973.549,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1973.569,"endTime":1975.359,"body":"That's, that's what he says"},{"startTime":1973.569,"endTime":1975.359,"body":"in his previous paragraph."},{"startTime":1975.509,"endTime":1977.559,"body":"It is tricky because today."},{"startTime":1977.709,"endTime":1980.429,"body":"Organizations do not decline business."},{"startTime":1980.479,"endTime":1983.804,"body":"I don't think they did back in 2023"},{"startTime":1980.479,"endTime":1983.804,"body":"either I mean, if you were to go to"},{"startTime":1983.804,"endTime":1987.014,"body":"your C suite and say this project we"},{"startTime":1983.804,"endTime":1987.014,"body":"think is too risky because they're"},{"startTime":1987.014,"endTime":1988.634,"body":"gonna say, well, do what you can, right?"},{"startTime":1988.864,"endTime":1993.324,"body":"We need the business because we need the"},{"startTime":1988.864,"endTime":1993.324,"body":"oxygen to keep the organization going."},{"startTime":1993.324,"endTime":1995.074,"body":"We need to pay you and everybody else."},{"startTime":1995.084,"endTime":1995.344,"body":"I believe that."},{"startTime":1995.594,"endTime":2000.279,"body":"I think it's incumbent upon whoever"},{"startTime":1995.594,"endTime":2000.279,"body":"is taking on the work, whatever"},{"startTime":2000.279,"endTime":2001.784,"body":"your role is to say, right?"},{"startTime":2001.934,"endTime":2006.854,"body":"Let's stop this, this whole idea of"},{"startTime":2001.934,"endTime":2006.854,"body":"a divide between us as the provider"},{"startTime":2006.854,"endTime":2011.304,"body":"organization and them as the consumer"},{"startTime":2006.854,"endTime":2011.304,"body":"organization and say, let's partner with"},{"startTime":2011.304,"endTime":2015.754,"body":"them in a true sense of the word and, and"},{"startTime":2011.304,"endTime":2015.754,"body":"have them understand that they can't have"},{"startTime":2015.754,"endTime":2019.564,"body":"everything because they're not have, they"},{"startTime":2015.754,"endTime":2019.564,"body":"don't have an unlimited budget, first of"},{"startTime":2019.564,"endTime":2021.974,"body":"all, and make them realize that, right?"},{"startTime":2022.024,"endTime":2025.124,"body":"And then, but don't penalize them and"},{"startTime":2022.024,"endTime":2025.124,"body":"say, Hey, Write down everything you"},{"startTime":2025.124,"endTime":2028.624,"body":"need right now, in blood, and then"},{"startTime":2025.124,"endTime":2028.624,"body":"we'll hit you with change requests."},{"startTime":2028.774,"endTime":2032.424,"body":"There is a medium, in the middle"},{"startTime":2028.774,"endTime":2032.424,"body":"of all that, which says, given"},{"startTime":2032.424,"endTime":2038.674,"body":"the money you have, you, customer,"},{"startTime":2032.424,"endTime":2038.674,"body":"decides how much you want and what"},{"startTime":2038.694,"endTime":2040.974,"body":"you want, until that money runs dry."},{"startTime":2041.274,"endTime":2046.494,"body":"If you can satisfy what they want,"},{"startTime":2041.274,"endTime":2046.494,"body":"when they want, You've won, right?"},{"startTime":2046.724,"endTime":2048.774,"body":"Don't worry about when the money runs out."},{"startTime":2048.984,"endTime":2050.954,"body":"Because when the money"},{"startTime":2048.984,"endTime":2050.954,"body":"runs out, it runs out."},{"startTime":2051.104,"endTime":2053.504,"body":"They can walk away and"},{"startTime":2051.104,"endTime":2053.504,"body":"say we got what we wanted."},{"startTime":2053.644,"endTime":2055.704,"body":"We got our money's worth basically, right?"},{"startTime":2055.714,"endTime":2056.544,"body":"And that's enough."},{"startTime":2056.694,"endTime":2058.374,"body":"We have a different podcast coming."},{"startTime":2058.724,"endTime":2059.924,"body":"I haven't put it on the list yet."},{"startTime":2059.924,"endTime":2064.024,"body":"But we have a different podcast coming"},{"startTime":2059.924,"endTime":2064.024,"body":"about satisfying our customers, right?"},{"startTime":2064.144,"endTime":2067.604,"body":"I think that's a worthwhile podcast"},{"startTime":2064.144,"endTime":2067.604,"body":"because a lot of people focus on that."},{"startTime":2067.614,"endTime":2069.664,"body":"But we have a slightly"},{"startTime":2067.614,"endTime":2069.664,"body":"different take on that."},{"startTime":2069.664,"endTime":2073.274,"body":"So just to kind of throw a little, thing"},{"startTime":2069.664,"endTime":2073.274,"body":"out there to to whet your appetite."},{"startTime":2073.474,"endTime":2077.174,"body":"But coming back to this, how much"},{"startTime":2073.474,"endTime":2077.174,"body":"work should we accept this time"},{"startTime":2077.174,"endTime":2081.494,"body":"around is a loaded question because"},{"startTime":2077.174,"endTime":2081.494,"body":"oftentimes people will say, well,"},{"startTime":2081.504,"endTime":2082.914,"body":"how much money do they have to spend?"},{"startTime":2082.924,"endTime":2084.564,"body":"Because we can always"},{"startTime":2082.924,"endTime":2084.564,"body":"get more team members."},{"startTime":2084.714,"endTime":2086.104,"body":"Okay, stop, right?"},{"startTime":2086.144,"endTime":2088.744,"body":"That isn't really what this"},{"startTime":2086.144,"endTime":2088.744,"body":"is getting to the crux of."},{"startTime":2089.094,"endTime":2093.654,"body":"This is saying, can you"},{"startTime":2089.094,"endTime":2093.654,"body":"meet what their needs are?"},{"startTime":2093.774,"endTime":2094.134,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2094.184,"endTime":2096.584,"body":"Needs, not their wishes,"},{"startTime":2094.184,"endTime":2096.584,"body":"wants, and desires."},{"startTime":2096.684,"endTime":2099.644,"body":"If you can identify those, you're"},{"startTime":2096.684,"endTime":2099.644,"body":"already off to a great start."},{"startTime":2099.694,"endTime":2103.284,"body":"Because if you can meet the needs, you"},{"startTime":2099.694,"endTime":2103.284,"body":"can have a conversation and say, Here"},{"startTime":2103.284,"endTime":2104.904,"body":"are your wishes, wants and desires."},{"startTime":2105.054,"endTime":2106.474,"body":"Now we've met your needs."},{"startTime":2106.554,"endTime":2108.234,"body":"Do some of those become your needs?"},{"startTime":2108.564,"endTime":2109.664,"body":"Not in the current budget."},{"startTime":2109.784,"endTime":2111.284,"body":"Maybe in the next budget, right?"},{"startTime":2111.484,"endTime":2115.474,"body":"But, the invitation is out there"},{"startTime":2111.484,"endTime":2115.474,"body":"for them to come back to you, right?"},{"startTime":2115.804,"endTime":2117.764,"body":"When they have budget next time."},{"startTime":2117.864,"endTime":2120.904,"body":"So, if you don't do that though,"},{"startTime":2117.864,"endTime":2120.904,"body":"You're kind of going back to"},{"startTime":2120.904,"endTime":2122.304,"body":"the old evil ways of working."},{"startTime":2122.454,"endTime":2124.454,"body":"It's that us and themism that creeps in."},{"startTime":2124.554,"endTime":2127.974,"body":"So he says, how much work should"},{"startTime":2124.554,"endTime":2127.974,"body":"we accept this time around?"},{"startTime":2127.984,"endTime":2129.094,"body":"That's his next header."},{"startTime":2129.434,"endTime":2133.734,"body":"So an Agile team needs to decide how much"},{"startTime":2129.434,"endTime":2133.734,"body":"work to accept in its next iteration."},{"startTime":2133.914,"endTime":2137.804,"body":"One way to do this is to look at"},{"startTime":2133.914,"endTime":2137.804,"body":"each proposed work item and estimate"},{"startTime":2137.824,"endTime":2140.244,"body":"how much time it will take to do."},{"startTime":2140.584,"endTime":2146.194,"body":"So now, now we're in the, we're in the"},{"startTime":2140.584,"endTime":2146.194,"body":"Meat and potatoes of the article, so here,"},{"startTime":2146.204,"endTime":2148.034,"body":"here's, here's the, here's the soundbite."},{"startTime":2148.084,"endTime":2149.074,"body":"It's coming up right now."},{"startTime":2149.074,"endTime":2149.804,"body":"I'm just warning you."},{"startTime":2149.954,"endTime":2153.599,"body":"There are a number of ideas how to"},{"startTime":2149.954,"endTime":2153.599,"body":"estimate using something other than time."},{"startTime":2153.779,"endTime":2158.339,"body":"Points, gummy bears, gummy bears, I love"},{"startTime":2153.779,"endTime":2158.339,"body":"gummy bears, Fibonacci t shirt sizes."},{"startTime":2158.499,"endTime":2161.769,"body":"These were originally invented"},{"startTime":2158.499,"endTime":2161.769,"body":"to obscure the time aspect so"},{"startTime":2161.769,"endTime":2164.419,"body":"that management wouldn't be"},{"startTime":2161.769,"endTime":2164.419,"body":"tempted to misuse the estimates."},{"startTime":2164.769,"endTime":2166.969,"body":"I know, I was there"},{"startTime":2164.769,"endTime":2166.969,"body":"when they were invented."},{"startTime":2167.209,"endTime":2171.349,"body":"I may actually have invented"},{"startTime":2167.209,"endTime":2171.349,"body":"points, and if I did, I'm sorry now."},{"startTime":2171.509,"endTime":2173.549,"body":"That's the thing that"},{"startTime":2171.509,"endTime":2173.549,"body":"gets quoted out of here."},{"startTime":2173.779,"endTime":2176.749,"body":"But he says, there's a good idea"},{"startTime":2173.779,"endTime":2176.749,"body":"hidden inside of these methods which"},{"startTime":2176.749,"endTime":2180.424,"body":"is to compare one feature idea To"},{"startTime":2176.749,"endTime":2180.424,"body":"another and think about whether"},{"startTime":2180.424,"endTime":2183.314,"body":"it's a larger or smaller, right?"},{"startTime":2183.314,"endTime":2186.494,"body":"That the relative estimation is"},{"startTime":2183.314,"endTime":2186.494,"body":"saying is still, is still important."},{"startTime":2186.594,"endTime":2189.194,"body":"He says, we're doing all this as"},{"startTime":2186.594,"endTime":2189.194,"body":"a side of how much work to take"},{"startTime":2189.254,"endTime":2192.644,"body":"on in an iteration, we might want"},{"startTime":2189.254,"endTime":2192.644,"body":"to improve our ability to do that."},{"startTime":2192.924,"endTime":2197.394,"body":"And we might benefit from thinking about"},{"startTime":2192.924,"endTime":2197.394,"body":"why we thought the thing would be easy."},{"startTime":2197.424,"endTime":2198.504,"body":"And it turned out to be hard."},{"startTime":2198.809,"endTime":2201.659,"body":"You know, so we, so we want to"},{"startTime":2198.809,"endTime":2201.659,"body":"inspect afterwards, we want to"},{"startTime":2201.669,"endTime":2205.559,"body":"retrospect afterwards of why we"},{"startTime":2201.669,"endTime":2205.559,"body":"thought something would be easy"},{"startTime":2205.729,"endTime":2209.969,"body":"or, or complex or not complex and,"},{"startTime":2205.729,"endTime":2209.969,"body":"and, and look at it afterwards"},{"startTime":2210.274,"endTime":2214.264,"body":"so, so the soundbite, the soundbite, oh,"},{"startTime":2210.274,"endTime":2214.264,"body":"Ron Jeffrey says you shouldn't use story"},{"startTime":2214.264,"endTime":2215.734,"body":"points, and he's sorry for inventing them."},{"startTime":2216.004,"endTime":2217.534,"body":"That that's not what he's saying at all."},{"startTime":2217.594,"endTime":2218.494,"body":"No, that's not what he's saying."},{"startTime":2218.499,"endTime":2218.974,"body":"That's right, that's right."},{"startTime":2219.029,"endTime":2222.029,"body":"He's saying relative"},{"startTime":2219.029,"endTime":2222.029,"body":"estimation is the way to go."},{"startTime":2222.179,"endTime":2225.299,"body":"Like he just, he, he just said, oh,"},{"startTime":2222.179,"endTime":2225.299,"body":"I'm sorry I did this, or whatever."},{"startTime":2225.629,"endTime":2229.849,"body":"But also you should compare"},{"startTime":2225.629,"endTime":2229.849,"body":"items to other items, right?"},{"startTime":2229.999,"endTime":2231.679,"body":"To figure out relative estimation."},{"startTime":2231.829,"endTime":2235.539,"body":"Or at least relative"},{"startTime":2231.829,"endTime":2235.539,"body":"comparison, if not estimation."},{"startTime":2235.689,"endTime":2236.879,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2236.889,"endTime":2239.329,"body":"So look, first of all, two things, right?"},{"startTime":2239.329,"endTime":2242.499,"body":"So just to unpack for people that"},{"startTime":2239.329,"endTime":2242.499,"body":"are listening to this that weren't"},{"startTime":2242.774,"endTime":2245.194,"body":"Outside of maybe middle school in 2013."},{"startTime":2245.344,"endTime":2247.934,"body":"Ron Jeffries invented story points."},{"startTime":2248.059,"endTime":2252.159,"body":"And what he's saying here is they've"},{"startTime":2248.059,"endTime":2252.159,"body":"been misconstrued a lot, right?"},{"startTime":2252.159,"endTime":2254.079,"body":"So he's trying to put"},{"startTime":2252.159,"endTime":2254.079,"body":"that right in this blog."},{"startTime":2254.229,"endTime":2260.339,"body":"And, and, Relative estimation has been"},{"startTime":2254.229,"endTime":2260.339,"body":"very much misunderstood and underused."},{"startTime":2260.489,"endTime":2262.369,"body":"So teams estimate items."},{"startTime":2262.379,"endTime":2265.179,"body":"I've seen, I've seen, I can't tell"},{"startTime":2262.379,"endTime":2265.179,"body":"you how many times I've seen teams."},{"startTime":2265.329,"endTime":2268.949,"body":"Go into an estimate session, pick"},{"startTime":2265.329,"endTime":2268.949,"body":"up a story and say, okay, team, how"},{"startTime":2268.949,"endTime":2270.059,"body":"much is, you know what do you think?"},{"startTime":2270.059,"endTime":2272.409,"body":"This is a three or five people vote."},{"startTime":2272.429,"endTime":2273.139,"body":"All that happens."},{"startTime":2273.289,"endTime":2276.079,"body":"The relative part is missing, right?"},{"startTime":2276.339,"endTime":2278.529,"body":"And this is not a new concept."},{"startTime":2278.679,"endTime":2279.459,"body":"I'm gonna repeat that."},{"startTime":2279.539,"endTime":2280.649,"body":"This is not a new concept."},{"startTime":2280.669,"endTime":2286.099,"body":"Relative estimation was around before"},{"startTime":2280.669,"endTime":2286.099,"body":"all of this and agile was a thing"},{"startTime":2286.249,"endTime":2290.659,"body":"back in the day when we were doing"},{"startTime":2286.249,"endTime":2290.659,"body":"things like Estimating projects,"},{"startTime":2290.689,"endTime":2294.739,"body":"estimating deliveries, whatever,"},{"startTime":2290.689,"endTime":2294.739,"body":"in the classical waterfall project"},{"startTime":2294.779,"endTime":2298.119,"body":"management world, we have this"},{"startTime":2294.779,"endTime":2298.119,"body":"thing called analogous estimation."},{"startTime":2298.269,"endTime":2301.059,"body":"That's a fancy term for"},{"startTime":2298.269,"endTime":2301.059,"body":"relative estimation."},{"startTime":2301.089,"endTime":2304.929,"body":"All it meant is, we've done a"},{"startTime":2301.089,"endTime":2304.929,"body":"project like this before, right?"},{"startTime":2305.079,"endTime":2307.699,"body":"And it took six weeks,"},{"startTime":2305.079,"endTime":2307.699,"body":"just to take a number."},{"startTime":2307.849,"endTime":2308.969,"body":"It was similar to this."},{"startTime":2309.069,"endTime":2310.469,"body":"This one's slightly different."},{"startTime":2310.769,"endTime":2313.799,"body":"So we're not gonna say it's"},{"startTime":2310.769,"endTime":2313.799,"body":"six weeks, but it's different."},{"startTime":2313.819,"endTime":2316.739,"body":"It could be five to eight weeks, right?"},{"startTime":2316.849,"endTime":2319.639,"body":"Or you can pick your"},{"startTime":2316.849,"endTime":2319.639,"body":"padding factors, right?"},{"startTime":2319.649,"endTime":2322.849,"body":"You can say five to 10 weeks,"},{"startTime":2319.649,"endTime":2322.849,"body":"whatever, based on the complexity"},{"startTime":2322.849,"endTime":2323.969,"body":"and the unknowns, et cetera."},{"startTime":2324.269,"endTime":2325.839,"body":"So that is relative estimation."},{"startTime":2325.839,"endTime":2327.669,"body":"It is carried forward here, right?"},{"startTime":2327.819,"endTime":2332.689,"body":"But what is really misunderstood is"},{"startTime":2327.819,"endTime":2332.689,"body":"how the team should use this, which"},{"startTime":2332.879,"endTime":2338.989,"body":"is look back and say, what have we"},{"startTime":2332.879,"endTime":2338.989,"body":"comfortably Comfortably been able to"},{"startTime":2338.989,"endTime":2340.869,"body":"deliver in a sprint in the last sprint."},{"startTime":2341.019,"endTime":2341.469,"body":"Nothing."},{"startTime":2341.499,"endTime":2341.829,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2341.829,"endTime":2343.409,"body":"Look for the sprint"},{"startTime":2341.829,"endTime":2343.409,"body":"before it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":2343.489,"endTime":2347.589,"body":"Has the team been intact and have"},{"startTime":2343.489,"endTime":2347.589,"body":"you delivered something in the 10"},{"startTime":2347.649,"endTime":2351.569,"body":"days of the sprint to done, meaning"},{"startTime":2347.649,"endTime":2351.569,"body":"you didn't just get dev done."},{"startTime":2351.609,"endTime":2355.009,"body":"You did dev testing and"},{"startTime":2351.609,"endTime":2355.009,"body":"deployment into production."},{"startTime":2355.059,"endTime":2357.969,"body":"Everything was done or whatever"},{"startTime":2355.059,"endTime":2357.969,"body":"your definition of done is."},{"startTime":2358.119,"endTime":2359.659,"body":"Just, just abide by that."},{"startTime":2359.679,"endTime":2360.959,"body":"Your, your definition of done."},{"startTime":2360.959,"endTime":2363.429,"body":"If you met that, well,"},{"startTime":2360.959,"endTime":2363.429,"body":"that's your reference."},{"startTime":2363.489,"endTime":2365.769,"body":"That's your standard story, right?"},{"startTime":2365.859,"endTime":2369.429,"body":"Look at that and say,"},{"startTime":2365.859,"endTime":2369.429,"body":"compared to that, how."},{"startTime":2369.579,"endTime":2370.829,"body":"Does this compare?"},{"startTime":2370.839,"endTime":2372.049,"body":"How complex is it?"},{"startTime":2372.059,"endTime":2373.249,"body":"How risky is it?"},{"startTime":2373.259,"endTime":2375.509,"body":"How much effort do you"},{"startTime":2373.259,"endTime":2375.509,"body":"think it might take?"},{"startTime":2375.559,"endTime":2377.369,"body":"What do we not know about this?"},{"startTime":2377.519,"endTime":2382.314,"body":"And the outcome isn't always well, did"},{"startTime":2377.519,"endTime":2382.314,"body":"the last one we did it was like a five."},{"startTime":2382.314,"endTime":2383.684,"body":"So this was maybe a three."},{"startTime":2383.834,"endTime":2385.244,"body":"Somebody, somebody on the team."},{"startTime":2385.394,"endTime":2388.804,"body":"Should feel empowered to say, well,"},{"startTime":2385.394,"endTime":2388.804,"body":"this is one thing we don't know."},{"startTime":2388.954,"endTime":2390.054,"body":"We need to find out."},{"startTime":2390.204,"endTime":2393.094,"body":"So I can't really give you the"},{"startTime":2390.204,"endTime":2393.094,"body":"estimate you're asking for."},{"startTime":2393.364,"endTime":2396.234,"body":"Listen to that person and say,"},{"startTime":2393.364,"endTime":2396.234,"body":"well, what do we not know?"},{"startTime":2396.454,"endTime":2399.594,"body":"Maybe we just create a little spike"},{"startTime":2396.454,"endTime":2399.594,"body":"story for a day to figure that out"},{"startTime":2399.614,"endTime":2401.424,"body":"and then come back to this story."},{"startTime":2401.764,"endTime":2404.554,"body":"That is perfectly legit"},{"startTime":2401.764,"endTime":2404.554,"body":"and should be pursued."},{"startTime":2404.704,"endTime":2406.494,"body":"Because anything else"},{"startTime":2404.704,"endTime":2406.494,"body":"is just really just..."},{"startTime":2406.644,"endTime":2407.064,"body":"Guessing."},{"startTime":2407.214,"endTime":2407.394,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2407.394,"endTime":2408.834,"body":"You know, what happens"},{"startTime":2407.394,"endTime":2408.834,"body":"when you guess, right?"},{"startTime":2408.834,"endTime":2408.954,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2409.104,"endTime":2412.264,"body":"I didn't win the Powerball, but I did"},{"startTime":2409.104,"endTime":2412.264,"body":"guess I win the Powerball every time."},{"startTime":2412.324,"endTime":2413.494,"body":"Because that's my superpower."},{"startTime":2413.499,"endTime":2414.544,"body":"All my guesses are right."},{"startTime":2414.799,"endTime":2415.024,"body":". Yeah."},{"startTime":2415.024,"endTime":2415.684,"body":"Think about that one."},{"startTime":2415.834,"endTime":2417.544,"body":"That was a, that was a inside joke."},{"startTime":2417.604,"endTime":2417.774,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2418.004,"endTime":2418.924,"body":"Moving into the summary."},{"startTime":2418.934,"endTime":2420.084,"body":"We're moving in the summary."},{"startTime":2420.084,"endTime":2420.524,"body":"Here we go."},{"startTime":2420.724,"endTime":2423.584,"body":"So he says, what, what's his"},{"startTime":2420.724,"endTime":2423.584,"body":"advice out of the whole article?"},{"startTime":2423.584,"endTime":2424.304,"body":"What is his advice?"},{"startTime":2424.314,"endTime":2426.924,"body":"So he says he's got, he's"},{"startTime":2424.314,"endTime":2426.924,"body":"got two ways that you can go."},{"startTime":2427.104,"endTime":2427.974,"body":"The second one is better."},{"startTime":2428.144,"endTime":2434.534,"body":"So, the first one, he says, is, you can,"},{"startTime":2428.144,"endTime":2434.534,"body":"he, he says, the, the big guys, the big"},{"startTime":2434.544,"endTime":2439.534,"body":"guys, quote, quote, big guys, the Vinnys"},{"startTime":2434.544,"endTime":2439.534,"body":"and the joeys, that's right, the big guys,"},{"startTime":2439.654,"endTime":2444.374,"body":"they're gonna pick a date anyway, so you"},{"startTime":2439.654,"endTime":2444.374,"body":"might as well pick a date before they pick"},{"startTime":2444.374,"endTime":2446.064,"body":"a date, so that, that's his first one."},{"startTime":2446.214,"endTime":2450.994,"body":"I'm going to skip straight over that"},{"startTime":2446.214,"endTime":2450.994,"body":"because it's obvious it's it's kind"},{"startTime":2450.994,"endTime":2454.454,"body":"of a facetious kind of a suggestion."},{"startTime":2454.644,"endTime":2455.674,"body":"And I'm going to cut the second one."},{"startTime":2455.674,"endTime":2459.294,"body":"He says, put a person in charge who"},{"startTime":2455.674,"endTime":2459.294,"body":"understands the problem with the"},{"startTime":2459.294,"endTime":2462.704,"body":"right people who understand how to"},{"startTime":2459.294,"endTime":2462.704,"body":"solve problems and then solve the"},{"startTime":2462.704,"endTime":2465.049,"body":"problems in the order of importance."},{"startTime":2465.079,"endTime":2465.199,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2465.439,"endTime":2470.469,"body":"Solve those problems and then ship"},{"startTime":2465.439,"endTime":2470.469,"body":"on a regular basis right away and"},{"startTime":2470.619,"endTime":2474.769,"body":"get feedback and get, and have"},{"startTime":2470.619,"endTime":2474.769,"body":"observability as to what the market"},{"startTime":2474.769,"endTime":2476.749,"body":"says with regard to your changes."},{"startTime":2476.819,"endTime":2477.959,"body":"I just summarize this paragraph."},{"startTime":2477.964,"endTime":2480.059,"body":"If there's a lot there though"},{"startTime":2477.964,"endTime":2480.059,"body":"in that little paragraph."},{"startTime":2480.184,"endTime":2484.604,"body":"There's a lot there, so I can tell"},{"startTime":2480.184,"endTime":2484.604,"body":"you, I, on multiple occasions on"},{"startTime":2484.604,"endTime":2488.824,"body":"my client engagements, I have seen"},{"startTime":2484.604,"endTime":2488.824,"body":"teams evolve from where they were"},{"startTime":2488.854,"endTime":2493.644,"body":"to where they got to, and they get"},{"startTime":2488.854,"endTime":2493.644,"body":"things done and then it sits there."},{"startTime":2493.794,"endTime":2497.699,"body":"They can't quite deploy into"},{"startTime":2493.794,"endTime":2497.699,"body":"production because DevOps doesn't"},{"startTime":2497.709,"endTime":2499.039,"body":"have bandwidth, for example."},{"startTime":2499.364,"endTime":2502.714,"body":"Cause we're in a matrix environment and"},{"startTime":2499.364,"endTime":2502.714,"body":"we simply reach out and open a ticket"},{"startTime":2502.714,"endTime":2504.214,"body":"and they say, we'll get to it next week."},{"startTime":2504.364,"endTime":2511.324,"body":"Every second, every single second, a"},{"startTime":2504.364,"endTime":2511.324,"body":"delivered, completed, tested, UAT tested"},{"startTime":2511.474,"endTime":2516.874,"body":"piece of product increment sits on the"},{"startTime":2511.474,"endTime":2516.874,"body":"shelf waiting to be deployed is waste."},{"startTime":2517.024,"endTime":2520.344,"body":"It is declining in"},{"startTime":2517.024,"endTime":2520.344,"body":"value for your customer."},{"startTime":2520.494,"endTime":2522.424,"body":"Your customer has the highest value."},{"startTime":2522.464,"endTime":2525.694,"body":"If they can get that when they want"},{"startTime":2522.464,"endTime":2525.694,"body":"it, which is as soon as it's finished."},{"startTime":2525.844,"endTime":2527.114,"body":"So if you delay that."},{"startTime":2527.429,"endTime":2529.889,"body":"It is declining in value, right?"},{"startTime":2530.119,"endTime":2533.169,"body":"And when I try to explain this,"},{"startTime":2530.119,"endTime":2533.169,"body":"people are like, What do you mean?"},{"startTime":2533.319,"endTime":2534.289,"body":"We don't understand."},{"startTime":2534.339,"endTime":2535.709,"body":"I'll give you a simple example."},{"startTime":2535.859,"endTime":2537.919,"body":"Let's say you're in the"},{"startTime":2535.859,"endTime":2537.919,"body":"market to buy a vehicle."},{"startTime":2538.069,"endTime":2539.449,"body":"It doesn't even have to be a new vehicle."},{"startTime":2539.469,"endTime":2541.069,"body":"Let's say it's like two years old."},{"startTime":2541.229,"endTime":2544.929,"body":"You buy a vehicle that has"},{"startTime":2541.229,"endTime":2544.929,"body":"lane keeping assist and all"},{"startTime":2544.929,"endTime":2546.624,"body":"these,  safety features, right?"},{"startTime":2546.624,"endTime":2551.234,"body":"So it will follow the car in front that"},{"startTime":2546.624,"endTime":2551.234,"body":"slows down, your car slows down, right?"},{"startTime":2551.234,"endTime":2551.834,"body":"Things like that."},{"startTime":2551.984,"endTime":2556.324,"body":"You put your indicator on to turn"},{"startTime":2551.984,"endTime":2556.324,"body":"right, and there's a car there in that"},{"startTime":2556.324,"endTime":2559.764,"body":"lane, and it's gonna tell you that,"},{"startTime":2556.324,"endTime":2559.764,"body":"because it'll beep, and it'll show"},{"startTime":2559.764,"endTime":2561.814,"body":"you a little LED, all of those things."},{"startTime":2562.074,"endTime":2562.574,"body":"Great!"},{"startTime":2562.854,"endTime":2563.654,"body":"Fantastic!"},{"startTime":2563.724,"endTime":2565.144,"body":"However, think about it this way."},{"startTime":2565.294,"endTime":2566.464,"body":"Let's just assume..."},{"startTime":2566.789,"endTime":2570.709,"body":"That they were made available,"},{"startTime":2566.789,"endTime":2570.709,"body":"generally available on most vehicles"},{"startTime":2570.709,"endTime":2572.499,"body":"back in, I don't know, 2014."},{"startTime":2572.549,"endTime":2575.309,"body":"I'm just picking a number here,"},{"startTime":2572.549,"endTime":2575.309,"body":"so don't get hung up on that."},{"startTime":2575.309,"endTime":2576.439,"body":"Let's say it was 2014."},{"startTime":2576.589,"endTime":2580.749,"body":"If you were in the market in 2014"},{"startTime":2576.589,"endTime":2580.749,"body":"and you knew that the model you"},{"startTime":2580.749,"endTime":2584.479,"body":"were considering had these features,"},{"startTime":2580.749,"endTime":2584.479,"body":"what were they worth to you, right?"},{"startTime":2584.829,"endTime":2586.439,"body":"These are brand new features."},{"startTime":2586.549,"endTime":2589.459,"body":"They're worth, I'm assuming, a"},{"startTime":2586.549,"endTime":2589.459,"body":"lot to you because they're adding"},{"startTime":2589.459,"endTime":2591.319,"body":"so much more than you had before."},{"startTime":2591.469,"endTime":2596.084,"body":"Now, fast forward most manufacturers"},{"startTime":2591.469,"endTime":2596.084,"body":"adopted like we all have that now"},{"startTime":2596.174,"endTime":2600.874,"body":"every manufacturer offers that yeah,"},{"startTime":2596.174,"endTime":2600.874,"body":"so it becomes not a new feature."},{"startTime":2600.874,"endTime":2602.324,"body":"That's worth Something to you."},{"startTime":2602.334,"endTime":2604.644,"body":"It's just an expectation"},{"startTime":2602.334,"endTime":2604.644,"body":"on the Kano model."},{"startTime":2604.644,"endTime":2605.934,"body":"This has become right."},{"startTime":2606.054,"endTime":2609.144,"body":"This has become something that"},{"startTime":2606.054,"endTime":2609.144,"body":"basically you expect to happen."},{"startTime":2609.144,"endTime":2611.294,"body":"It's not a delight or"},{"startTime":2609.144,"endTime":2611.294,"body":"by any chance, right?"},{"startTime":2611.444,"endTime":2614.694,"body":"The lighter might be a while based on"},{"startTime":2611.444,"endTime":2614.694,"body":"the weather is going to steer me around"},{"startTime":2614.694,"endTime":2616.424,"body":"this and self drive and whatever."},{"startTime":2616.454,"endTime":2617.754,"body":"Give me a massage, whatever."},{"startTime":2617.774,"endTime":2618.524,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2618.774,"endTime":2623.264,"body":"So that that's kind of, yes, slightly"},{"startTime":2618.774,"endTime":2623.264,"body":"extreme, but it gives you the idea behind"},{"startTime":2623.264,"endTime":2629.224,"body":"it is there is a time element to the value"},{"startTime":2623.264,"endTime":2629.224,"body":"proposition for what you're delivering."},{"startTime":2629.289,"endTime":2630.719,"body":"To your customer, right?"},{"startTime":2630.769,"endTime":2633.639,"body":"The more you delay, the"},{"startTime":2630.769,"endTime":2633.639,"body":"less of the value for them."},{"startTime":2633.639,"endTime":2637.499,"body":"Yeah, the less of the value"},{"startTime":2633.639,"endTime":2637.499,"body":"for them means automatically"},{"startTime":2637.499,"endTime":2638.659,"body":"whether you know this or not."},{"startTime":2638.809,"endTime":2643.069,"body":"The lesser the value for you, because if"},{"startTime":2638.809,"endTime":2643.069,"body":"they can get the same functionality for"},{"startTime":2643.079,"endTime":2644.709,"body":"somebody else, why would they come to you?"},{"startTime":2644.769,"endTime":2647.899,"body":"maybe they're you know, an entrant in"},{"startTime":2644.769,"endTime":2647.899,"body":"the market that can offer it cheaper."},{"startTime":2647.919,"endTime":2649.239,"body":"And now they're gonna go to them, right?"},{"startTime":2649.269,"endTime":2650.859,"body":"So just bear that in mind."},{"startTime":2651.009,"endTime":2655.519,"body":"Well, I mean we could, we could, again,"},{"startTime":2651.009,"endTime":2655.519,"body":"this, this single paragraph, we could"},{"startTime":2655.519,"endTime":2657.689,"body":"go on and on for probably 45 minutes."},{"startTime":2657.709,"endTime":2658.514,"body":"We could easily."},{"startTime":2658.644,"endTime":2662.754,"body":"Because again, this one paragraph is"},{"startTime":2658.644,"endTime":2662.754,"body":"kind of the, the, the seed of modern"},{"startTime":2662.754,"endTime":2665.864,"body":"product management he says, put a"},{"startTime":2662.754,"endTime":2665.864,"body":"person in charge who understands the"},{"startTime":2665.864,"endTime":2669.524,"body":"problem with the, and put them along"},{"startTime":2665.864,"endTime":2669.524,"body":"with the people who solve problems."},{"startTime":2669.674,"endTime":2674.214,"body":"And then have them solve the"},{"startTime":2669.674,"endTime":2674.214,"body":"problems in the order of most"},{"startTime":2674.214,"endTime":2675.794,"body":"important to less important."},{"startTime":2675.944,"endTime":2677.564,"body":"And then ship it right away."},{"startTime":2677.714,"endTime":2682.154,"body":"And change what you're doing based on what"},{"startTime":2677.714,"endTime":2682.154,"body":"the users and the market says about it."},{"startTime":2682.404,"endTime":2685.344,"body":"You basically just described the"},{"startTime":2682.404,"endTime":2685.344,"body":"whole product management profession"},{"startTime":2685.564,"endTime":2686.464,"body":"right there in one sentence."},{"startTime":2686.464,"endTime":2687.274,"body":"He did that!"},{"startTime":2687.334,"endTime":2689.084,"body":"He did that in 2013!"},{"startTime":2689.094,"endTime":2690.324,"body":"Yeah, in 2013."},{"startTime":2690.434,"endTime":2692.144,"body":"Also, by the way, there"},{"startTime":2690.434,"endTime":2692.144,"body":"were no product managers."},{"startTime":2692.214,"endTime":2692.934,"body":"Exactly!"},{"startTime":2693.084,"endTime":2693.814,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2693.814,"endTime":2696.634,"body":"The whole product paradigm"},{"startTime":2693.814,"endTime":2696.634,"body":"was really even, wasn't even"},{"startTime":2696.634,"endTime":2698.024,"body":"really kind of mature back then."},{"startTime":2698.084,"endTime":2702.474,"body":"anyway like we're, we're a stone"},{"startTime":2698.084,"endTime":2702.474,"body":"throw away from wrapping up."},{"startTime":2702.474,"endTime":2706.724,"body":"So his final paragraph, he says, this"},{"startTime":2702.474,"endTime":2706.724,"body":"approach shortens all the cycles."},{"startTime":2706.874,"endTime":2708.844,"body":"That delay getting value to your point."},{"startTime":2708.994,"endTime":2712.854,"body":"It cuts communication lines between"},{"startTime":2708.994,"endTime":2712.854,"body":"the people who want things and"},{"startTime":2712.854,"endTime":2714.724,"body":"the people who do make things."},{"startTime":2714.874,"endTime":2717.764,"body":"It cuts communication lines between"},{"startTime":2714.874,"endTime":2717.764,"body":"the people who create things and"},{"startTime":2717.774,"endTime":2719.824,"body":"the people who use those things."},{"startTime":2719.974,"endTime":2724.034,"body":"It takes the most important ideas, builds"},{"startTime":2719.974,"endTime":2724.034,"body":"them quickly and gets them out there."},{"startTime":2724.034,"endTime":2724.314,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2724.314,"endTime":2725.214,"body":"It's hard to do it."},{"startTime":2725.404,"endTime":2727.984,"body":"But that's, that's why it's the best."},{"startTime":2728.109,"endTime":2729.569,"body":"It might be hard to do."},{"startTime":2729.719,"endTime":2730.329,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2730.399,"endTime":2732.029,"body":"Oh, devops is hard to do."},{"startTime":2732.199,"endTime":2733.689,"body":"And product prioritization is hard to do."},{"startTime":2733.829,"endTime":2736.399,"body":"And scheduling and jockeying"},{"startTime":2733.829,"endTime":2736.399,"body":"calendars is hard to do."},{"startTime":2736.759,"endTime":2737.029,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2737.029,"endTime":2737.689,"body":"It's hard to do."},{"startTime":2737.879,"endTime":2741.649,"body":"I mean, compared to, I'll just pick"},{"startTime":2737.879,"endTime":2741.649,"body":"a date out of the air and shove it"},{"startTime":2741.649,"endTime":2745.839,"body":"over to a team to do things and just"},{"startTime":2741.649,"endTime":2745.839,"body":"pay them whether they do them or not."},{"startTime":2745.849,"endTime":2747.719,"body":"And whether anyone finds value or not."},{"startTime":2747.719,"endTime":2748.569,"body":"Like, I don't know."},{"startTime":2748.689,"endTime":2749.559,"body":"Is it hard to do?"},{"startTime":2749.689,"endTime":2752.189,"body":"No, I don't know if it"},{"startTime":2749.689,"endTime":2752.189,"body":"really is that hard to do."},{"startTime":2752.219,"endTime":2753.059,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":2753.069,"endTime":2756.119,"body":"Listen, this whole voodooism of"},{"startTime":2753.069,"endTime":2756.119,"body":"picking a date out of the air."},{"startTime":2756.449,"endTime":2757.459,"body":"That's how it's days."},{"startTime":2757.609,"endTime":2760.029,"body":"So like now that we read"},{"startTime":2757.609,"endTime":2760.029,"body":"through the whole article."},{"startTime":2760.079,"endTime":2765.089,"body":"But, but like, again, the, the, his,"},{"startTime":2760.079,"endTime":2765.089,"body":"his little clickbait piece that,"},{"startTime":2765.089,"endTime":2766.799,"body":"that gets picked up on social media."},{"startTime":2767.009,"endTime":2771.749,"body":"I, I, I feel is is like the,"},{"startTime":2767.009,"endTime":2771.749,"body":"the least important uh, gummy"},{"startTime":2771.754,"endTime":2773.399,"body":"bears, oh, I gummy bears."},{"startTime":2773.404,"endTime":2774.339,"body":"This part, this part, this part."},{"startTime":2774.339,"endTime":2774.739,"body":"Story points."},{"startTime":2774.744,"endTime":2776.609,"body":"I, I know  I invented story points."},{"startTime":2776.609,"endTime":2777.989,"body":"I'm sorry if I invented story points."},{"startTime":2778.139,"endTime":2783.759,"body":"He says that in one paragraph and the"},{"startTime":2778.139,"endTime":2783.759,"body":"very next paragraph outlines, yeah, you"},{"startTime":2783.759,"endTime":2789.379,"body":"might not like story points, but I still"},{"startTime":2783.759,"endTime":2789.379,"body":"suggest the good idea of compare what"},{"startTime":2789.379,"endTime":2794.109,"body":"you're doing to something else that you"},{"startTime":2789.379,"endTime":2794.109,"body":"did to see if it's larger or smaller."},{"startTime":2794.259,"endTime":2798.399,"body":"Listen, I, this whole concept is so"},{"startTime":2794.259,"endTime":2798.399,"body":"misunderstood out there in the wild."},{"startTime":2798.659,"endTime":2799.229,"body":"Course, right?"},{"startTime":2799.229,"endTime":2799.839,"body":"Story points."},{"startTime":2799.839,"endTime":2801.129,"body":"People are like, why"},{"startTime":2799.839,"endTime":2801.129,"body":"don't we just use time?"},{"startTime":2801.129,"endTime":2801.749,"body":"Why don't we do this?"},{"startTime":2801.749,"endTime":2802.279,"body":"Why don't we do it?"},{"startTime":2802.309,"endTime":2802.529,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":2802.549,"endTime":2803.339,"body":"Why Fibonacci?"},{"startTime":2803.369,"endTime":2804.959,"body":"Why don't we just use straight line?"},{"startTime":2804.989,"endTime":2805.259,"body":"Anything."},{"startTime":2805.269,"endTime":2806.189,"body":"You can use one, two, three."},{"startTime":2806.189,"endTime":2807.469,"body":"Fibonacci doesn't matter what it is."},{"startTime":2807.499,"endTime":2807.849,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2807.899,"endTime":2812.049,"body":"So I, in the past, on at least two"},{"startTime":2807.899,"endTime":2812.049,"body":"occasions have used a fruit scale."},{"startTime":2812.199,"endTime":2815.299,"body":"For, for story like sizing,"},{"startTime":2812.199,"endTime":2815.299,"body":"not story points, but you"},{"startTime":2815.299,"endTime":2816.209,"body":"don't understand story point."},{"startTime":2816.219,"endTime":2817.049,"body":"Don't agree with fine."},{"startTime":2817.049,"endTime":2817.699,"body":"Just throw them away."},{"startTime":2817.809,"endTime":2818.059,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2818.119,"endTime":2818.379,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2818.609,"endTime":2823.979,"body":"Just say, let's just look at something"},{"startTime":2818.609,"endTime":2823.979,"body":"that you were able to deliver in 10 days."},{"startTime":2824.299,"endTime":2825.999,"body":"It's a sprint in 10 days."},{"startTime":2826.149,"endTime":2829.539,"body":"And we'll just say, well, that's"},{"startTime":2826.149,"endTime":2829.539,"body":"the size of I don't know watermelon."},{"startTime":2829.689,"endTime":2833.959,"body":"What if it was 10 percent bigger,"},{"startTime":2829.689,"endTime":2833.959,"body":"whatever way, bigger effort,"},{"startTime":2833.979,"endTime":2835.399,"body":"bigger complexity, whatever."},{"startTime":2835.549,"endTime":2835.869,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2836.219,"endTime":2840.059,"body":"Would we still be able to deliver"},{"startTime":2836.219,"endTime":2840.059,"body":"that in that same 10 day period?"},{"startTime":2840.209,"endTime":2840.499,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2840.829,"endTime":2841.949,"body":"No, we won't."},{"startTime":2842.239,"endTime":2843.919,"body":"We'll just call that a watermelon then."},{"startTime":2844.069,"endTime":2844.329,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2844.479,"endTime":2847.739,"body":"So, you have a honeydew"},{"startTime":2844.479,"endTime":2847.739,"body":"melon, a watermelon."},{"startTime":2847.959,"endTime":2849.289,"body":"So, a fruit scale."},{"startTime":2849.349,"endTime":2849.669,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2849.689,"endTime":2850.009,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2850.069,"endTime":2850.979,"body":"Apple, grape."},{"startTime":2851.039,"endTime":2852.449,"body":"Grapefruit, right?"},{"startTime":2852.479,"endTime":2853.199,"body":"Kiwi."},{"startTime":2853.399,"endTime":2853.629,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2853.639,"endTime":2855.199,"body":"And strawberries and blueberries."},{"startTime":2855.209,"endTime":2858.449,"body":"So, we can do a lot of blueberries"},{"startTime":2855.209,"endTime":2858.449,"body":"and get those done in a day."},{"startTime":2858.669,"endTime":2859.449,"body":"Less than a day."},{"startTime":2859.509,"endTime":2861.169,"body":"Okay, a strawberry a day."},{"startTime":2861.199,"endTime":2862.829,"body":"Okay, a grapefruit 23 days."},{"startTime":2862.839,"endTime":2863.169,"body":"Fine."},{"startTime":2863.319,"endTime":2868.029,"body":"All of this is relative to"},{"startTime":2863.319,"endTime":2868.029,"body":"the definition that your team"},{"startTime":2868.029,"endTime":2870.029,"body":"has of what done means, right?"},{"startTime":2870.149,"endTime":2871.239,"body":"If it's just they've done."},{"startTime":2871.259,"endTime":2872.819,"body":"Yeah your fruits are huge."},{"startTime":2872.829,"endTime":2873.489,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":2873.539,"endTime":2878.044,"body":"You know, but if your definition"},{"startTime":2873.539,"endTime":2878.044,"body":"is get it to Dev complete, testing"},{"startTime":2878.044,"endTime":2882.154,"body":"complete, UAT complete, or even"},{"startTime":2878.044,"endTime":2882.154,"body":"better, out into production, right?"},{"startTime":2882.304,"endTime":2883.214,"body":"That's what he's trying for."},{"startTime":2883.384,"endTime":2888.664,"body":"If you're doing that, then you have fewer"},{"startTime":2883.384,"endTime":2888.664,"body":"fruit and they're probably quite big."},{"startTime":2888.714,"endTime":2891.614,"body":"Well, again,  I would expect"},{"startTime":2888.714,"endTime":2891.614,"body":"most people experience when"},{"startTime":2891.614,"endTime":2892.714,"body":"they hear what you just said."},{"startTime":2892.864,"endTime":2897.694,"body":"Is, well, my management asks, well,"},{"startTime":2892.864,"endTime":2897.694,"body":"what is a watermelon is equivalent to"},{"startTime":2897.724,"endTime":2901.464,"body":"three days, five days, 10 days and a"},{"startTime":2897.724,"endTime":2901.464,"body":"great, like they're still going to try"},{"startTime":2901.464,"endTime":2905.774,"body":"to pull them back to what, what,  the"},{"startTime":2901.464,"endTime":2905.774,"body":"management knows again, what they were"},{"startTime":2905.774,"endTime":2908.424,"body":"taught in their MBA class, because"},{"startTime":2905.774,"endTime":2908.424,"body":"they would like a hundred years ago,"},{"startTime":2908.424,"endTime":2913.264,"body":"somebody came up with the scale of this"},{"startTime":2908.424,"endTime":2913.264,"body":"job takes this many hours to complete."},{"startTime":2913.274,"endTime":2915.594,"body":"They're trying to pull them back"},{"startTime":2913.274,"endTime":2915.594,"body":"where you're saying, no, no, no."},{"startTime":2915.594,"endTime":2920.074,"body":"This is a, this is a"},{"startTime":2915.594,"endTime":2920.074,"body":"grapefruit size task because."},{"startTime":2920.379,"endTime":2924.719,"body":"You've chosen this other task that"},{"startTime":2920.379,"endTime":2924.719,"body":"you did in the past and just said"},{"startTime":2924.989,"endTime":2926.949,"body":"this is a grapefruit sized task."},{"startTime":2927.209,"endTime":2929.149,"body":"And this task looks like this task."},{"startTime":2929.309,"endTime":2932.689,"body":"You're comparing work, whereas"},{"startTime":2929.309,"endTime":2932.689,"body":"these, what, what they're doing"},{"startTime":2932.689,"endTime":2936.679,"body":"is they're, they're taking a"},{"startTime":2932.689,"endTime":2936.679,"body":"relative estimation Fibonacci."},{"startTime":2936.699,"endTime":2937.359,"body":"This is an 8."},{"startTime":2937.509,"endTime":2938.409,"body":"Well, what's an 8?"},{"startTime":2938.459,"endTime":2940.979,"body":"Well, an 8's about, I don't"},{"startTime":2938.459,"endTime":2940.979,"body":"know, 3 days worth of work."},{"startTime":2940.979,"endTime":2941.642,"body":"5 days worth of work."},{"startTime":2941.642,"endTime":2942.709,"body":"It's about 2 days worth of work."},{"startTime":2942.709,"endTime":2945.919,"body":"Okay, well that's about 16 man hours."},{"startTime":2946.204,"endTime":2950.794,"body":"And I'll equate that to like,"},{"startTime":2946.204,"endTime":2950.794,"body":"again, that is incorrect."},{"startTime":2950.914,"endTime":2955.234,"body":"It's with this article, and, and,"},{"startTime":2950.914,"endTime":2955.234,"body":"and again, I, I wish he really could."},{"startTime":2955.324,"endTime":2959.404,"body":"There's, it's so sad that like the,"},{"startTime":2955.324,"endTime":2959.404,"body":"the one paragraph, one sentence outta"},{"startTime":2959.404,"endTime":2963.564,"body":"one paragraph gets the soundbite"},{"startTime":2959.404,"endTime":2963.564,"body":"because to dig into this paragraph,"},{"startTime":2963.804,"endTime":2965.394,"body":"I feel would be an entire podcast."},{"startTime":2965.484,"endTime":2965.574,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2965.574,"endTime":2967.944,"body":"He would with, with Ron Jeffries"},{"startTime":2965.574,"endTime":2967.944,"body":"in the room to digging it, be"},{"startTime":2967.944,"endTime":2968.604,"body":"like, oh, that'd be fantastic."},{"startTime":2968.604,"endTime":2968.844,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":2968.844,"endTime":2969.324,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":2969.324,"endTime":2970.554,"body":"How did people."},{"startTime":2970.704,"endTime":2976.504,"body":"Get this so wrong where they take it"},{"startTime":2970.704,"endTime":2976.504,"body":"and they know because you wrote in this"},{"startTime":2976.514,"endTime":2981.944,"body":"article, clearly in this article, you"},{"startTime":2976.514,"endTime":2981.944,"body":"have to compare this, this Fibonacci"},{"startTime":2981.944,"endTime":2986.754,"body":"number to this other Fibonacci number"},{"startTime":2981.944,"endTime":2986.754,"body":"that actually represents finished work."},{"startTime":2986.904,"endTime":2989.484,"body":"So how do people get from like,"},{"startTime":2986.904,"endTime":2989.484,"body":"well, I understand you're saying"},{"startTime":2989.484,"endTime":2993.044,"body":"it represents finished work, but"},{"startTime":2989.484,"endTime":2993.044,"body":"I'm going to sub in hours for this."},{"startTime":2993.294,"endTime":2995.004,"body":"That's not what this says."},{"startTime":2995.084,"endTime":2998.194,"body":"Listen, so it is, it's, I"},{"startTime":2995.084,"endTime":2998.194,"body":"feel the confusion of like."},{"startTime":2998.459,"endTime":3001.739,"body":"Well, people have messed this up so"},{"startTime":2998.459,"endTime":3001.739,"body":"much that the original concept is"},{"startTime":3001.739,"endTime":3006.324,"body":"so marred that we're just going to"},{"startTime":3001.739,"endTime":3006.324,"body":"abandon it and say, listen compare"},{"startTime":3006.404,"endTime":3009.344,"body":"this work to the previous work"},{"startTime":3006.404,"endTime":3009.344,"body":"to say, is it larger or smaller?"},{"startTime":3009.584,"endTime":3013.594,"body":"Well, a lot of times people forget"},{"startTime":3009.584,"endTime":3013.594,"body":"about the underlying assumptions, right?"},{"startTime":3013.614,"endTime":3017.834,"body":"So, yes, of course, the"},{"startTime":3013.614,"endTime":3017.834,"body":"management, the PMO folks will"},{"startTime":3017.834,"endTime":3019.814,"body":"say, Equate it to hours, right?"},{"startTime":3019.964,"endTime":3020.284,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":3020.294,"endTime":3024.884,"body":"Then my immediate comeback when they"},{"startTime":3020.294,"endTime":3024.884,"body":"say that is I was by whom?, right?"},{"startTime":3025.034,"endTime":3028.314,"body":"So you have a team of, let's just"},{"startTime":3025.034,"endTime":3028.314,"body":"say for the purpose of discussion,"},{"startTime":3028.334,"endTime":3029.579,"body":"eight people, it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":3029.619,"endTime":3030.159,"body":"10 people."},{"startTime":3030.489,"endTime":3034.989,"body":"Who is doing the work and at that point"},{"startTime":3030.489,"endTime":3034.989,"body":"that when that question is fired back"},{"startTime":3034.989,"endTime":3038.829,"body":"at these management types or the PMO,"},{"startTime":3034.989,"endTime":3038.829,"body":"you're going to equate this back to hours."},{"startTime":3038.979,"endTime":3041.679,"body":"But we have a senior."},{"startTime":3041.839,"endTime":3047.059,"body":"Developer who has eight years, 10 years of"},{"startTime":3041.839,"endTime":3047.059,"body":"experience in the same technology, right?"},{"startTime":3047.209,"endTime":3052.929,"body":"And they can do this reasonably in"},{"startTime":3047.209,"endTime":3052.929,"body":"lesser hours than we're talking about."},{"startTime":3053.199,"endTime":3055.419,"body":"On the other hand, They may"},{"startTime":3053.199,"endTime":3055.419,"body":"not be doing all the work."},{"startTime":3055.629,"endTime":3060.559,"body":"So we have this other developer,"},{"startTime":3055.629,"endTime":3060.559,"body":"developers, that have less experience."},{"startTime":3060.629,"endTime":3062.829,"body":"And it may take them"},{"startTime":3060.629,"endTime":3062.829,"body":"longer because of that."},{"startTime":3062.879,"endTime":3066.589,"body":"Or, hey listen, this work"},{"startTime":3062.879,"endTime":3066.589,"body":"involves new technology that"},{"startTime":3066.599,"endTime":3068.179,"body":"nobody knows about on our team."},{"startTime":3068.199,"endTime":3069.739,"body":"Someone's gonna go figure that out."},{"startTime":3069.969,"endTime":3070.909,"body":"We're gonna learn that."},{"startTime":3071.059,"endTime":3074.949,"body":"If it's not the right technology, we have"},{"startTime":3071.059,"endTime":3074.949,"body":"to figure out an alternative even, right?"},{"startTime":3075.169,"endTime":3078.089,"body":"That's why that other spike story is"},{"startTime":3075.169,"endTime":3078.089,"body":"in the backlog, to figure that out."},{"startTime":3078.379,"endTime":3084.939,"body":"So if you pull that out on them and"},{"startTime":3078.379,"endTime":3084.939,"body":"say, listen, everybody is not equal"},{"startTime":3084.949,"endTime":3087.429,"body":"skill sets, experience wise, etc."},{"startTime":3087.769,"endTime":3091.089,"body":"Then you can't just generalize ours."},{"startTime":3091.249,"endTime":3093.959,"body":"Ours is a, is a, I can drive."},{"startTime":3094.109,"endTime":3094.829,"body":"You can drive."},{"startTime":3094.979,"endTime":3097.909,"body":"You and I can drive on"},{"startTime":3094.979,"endTime":3097.909,"body":"a Formula One track."},{"startTime":3097.909,"endTime":3098.879,"body":"I have no doubt."},{"startTime":3099.019,"endTime":3099.719,"body":"We can do that."},{"startTime":3099.869,"endTime":3101.389,"body":"Can we keep pace with..."},{"startTime":3101.539,"endTime":3102.739,"body":"Pick a, pick a race driver."},{"startTime":3102.789,"endTime":3104.259,"body":"Lewis Hamilton's my guy."},{"startTime":3104.349,"endTime":3108.889,"body":"So Lewis Hamilton, can we pick,"},{"startTime":3104.349,"endTime":3108.889,"body":"can we pick Lewis or Max Verstappen"},{"startTime":3108.889,"endTime":3110.489,"body":"who is kicking everybody's butt?"},{"startTime":3110.549,"endTime":3112.579,"body":"But anyway, can we keep pace with them?"},{"startTime":3112.729,"endTime":3114.279,"body":"Probably not, right?"},{"startTime":3114.609,"endTime":3117.869,"body":"So I used this argument one time"},{"startTime":3114.609,"endTime":3117.869,"body":"and one of the execs said to me, Do"},{"startTime":3117.869,"endTime":3121.329,"body":"you realize that Schumacher, back"},{"startTime":3117.869,"endTime":3121.329,"body":"in the day when he was a, he was a"},{"startTime":3121.329,"endTime":3124.719,"body":"race driver, he couldn't, he didn't"},{"startTime":3121.329,"endTime":3124.719,"body":"actually have a driver's license."},{"startTime":3124.719,"endTime":3126.749,"body":"He couldn't drive on, on regular roads."},{"startTime":3126.799,"endTime":3128.519,"body":"But he was the champion."},{"startTime":3128.849,"endTime":3131.239,"body":"Formula One champion"},{"startTime":3128.849,"endTime":3131.239,"body":"like go figure that out."},{"startTime":3131.469,"endTime":3133.569,"body":"So the point is everybody's not equal."},{"startTime":3133.709,"endTime":3136.519,"body":"Yeah, right to me that drove it"},{"startTime":3133.709,"endTime":3136.519,"body":"home It's like you can't drive."},{"startTime":3136.519,"endTime":3139.109,"body":"He doesn't have a driver's license"},{"startTime":3136.519,"endTime":3139.109,"body":"The guy drives at, I don't know,"},{"startTime":3139.109,"endTime":3141.619,"body":"180, 200 miles an hour plus, right?"},{"startTime":3141.769,"endTime":3143.079,"body":"Yeah, but not on the roads."},{"startTime":3143.229,"endTime":3144.159,"body":"I was going to say, not on the roads."},{"startTime":3144.309,"endTime":3145.629,"body":"On the closed circuits, he can."},{"startTime":3145.719,"endTime":3147.729,"body":"Sounds like he should have a"},{"startTime":3145.719,"endTime":3147.729,"body":"driver's license in Florida."},{"startTime":3147.729,"endTime":3148.779,"body":"I'm just saying, hey."},{"startTime":3149.069,"endTime":3150.309,"body":"He doesn't need one in Florida."},{"startTime":3150.359,"endTime":3151.279,"body":"He can just crash anywhere."},{"startTime":3151.429,"endTime":3152.429,"body":"He doesn't even need insurance."},{"startTime":3152.549,"endTime":3153.929,"body":"So, but that's the different topic."},{"startTime":3153.929,"endTime":3157.319,"body":"So, so, so the, the Ron Jeffries"},{"startTime":3153.929,"endTime":3157.319,"body":"article, like estimation is evil."},{"startTime":3157.319,"endTime":3161.759,"body":"The Click Baitey title, I feel like,"},{"startTime":3157.319,"endTime":3161.759,"body":"yeah, it kind of did a disservice to this"},{"startTime":3161.764,"endTime":3165.109,"body":"article, which is a very good article"},{"startTime":3161.764,"endTime":3165.109,"body":"about saying like, Hey, , look at the"},{"startTime":3165.119,"endTime":3169.849,"body":"work and compare the work to the work and"},{"startTime":3165.119,"endTime":3169.849,"body":"the estimation that is evil where he's"},{"startTime":3169.849,"endTime":3174.519,"body":"talking about is picking dates out of"},{"startTime":3169.849,"endTime":3174.519,"body":"the air and just, just going and saying"},{"startTime":3174.519,"endTime":3177.179,"body":"like, well, you're going to pick a date,"},{"startTime":3174.519,"endTime":3177.179,"body":"so I'm going to pick a date first, right?"},{"startTime":3177.199,"endTime":3181.759,"body":"So at least, at least my date might be"},{"startTime":3177.199,"endTime":3181.759,"body":"closer to reality than your date because"},{"startTime":3181.869,"endTime":3186.379,"body":"we know someone's going to pick a date"},{"startTime":3181.869,"endTime":3186.379,"body":"and this whole rat race Of estimation"},{"startTime":3186.529,"endTime":3189.779,"body":"that that is the evil that he's talking"},{"startTime":3186.529,"endTime":3189.779,"body":"about in here He's not talking about"},{"startTime":3189.779,"endTime":3191.579,"body":"story points specifically being flawed."},{"startTime":3191.609,"endTime":3194.609,"body":"That's right, but people blame"},{"startTime":3191.609,"endTime":3194.609,"body":"him for that I I which is"},{"startTime":3194.609,"endTime":3196.349,"body":"why he's apologizing for it."},{"startTime":3196.349,"endTime":3198.209,"body":"I feel and that was in 2013."},{"startTime":3198.269,"endTime":3202.254,"body":"I understand but again for"},{"startTime":3198.269,"endTime":3202.254,"body":"everyone listening We've read many,"},{"startTime":3202.254,"endTime":3203.904,"body":"many excerpts of this article."},{"startTime":3204.074,"endTime":3209.394,"body":"I'm going to link the article down in"},{"startTime":3204.074,"endTime":3209.394,"body":"the video slash podcast and people can"},{"startTime":3209.394,"endTime":3213.494,"body":"read it and come to their own conclusion"},{"startTime":3209.394,"endTime":3213.494,"body":"and comment below if anything that we"},{"startTime":3213.494,"endTime":3216.904,"body":"missed anything that we didn't or if"},{"startTime":3213.494,"endTime":3216.904,"body":"we're wrong, any of these points, you"},{"startTime":3216.904,"endTime":3220.864,"body":"know again, I, I, I got kind of tired"},{"startTime":3216.904,"endTime":3220.864,"body":"of the, of the click bait of referring"},{"startTime":3220.864,"endTime":3224.814,"body":"to this article and Ron Jeffries,"},{"startTime":3220.864,"endTime":3224.814,"body":"taking Ron Jeffries holy name in vain."},{"startTime":3225.004,"endTime":3226.964,"body":"Or something and well, it's a lot of Ron."},{"startTime":3226.964,"endTime":3230.084,"body":"If you're listening, we would love to"},{"startTime":3226.964,"endTime":3230.084,"body":"hear from you and I'd love to have you"},{"startTime":3230.084,"endTime":3233.834,"body":"on a podcast because I really agree with"},{"startTime":3230.084,"endTime":3233.834,"body":"your ethos of getting something done"},{"startTime":3233.834,"endTime":3236.734,"body":"and getting it out there in the wild"},{"startTime":3233.834,"endTime":3236.734,"body":"as soon as you can, which is what he's"},{"startTime":3236.734,"endTime":3239.684,"body":"saying in the last two paragraphs, get"},{"startTime":3236.734,"endTime":3239.684,"body":"the product out there, see what happens,"},{"startTime":3239.834,"endTime":3242.464,"body":"take the most important ideas, build"},{"startTime":3239.834,"endTime":3242.464,"body":"them quickly and get them out there."},{"startTime":3242.614,"endTime":3243.374,"body":"I couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":3243.434,"endTime":3245.794,"body":"And speaking of getting"},{"startTime":3243.434,"endTime":3245.794,"body":"things done, we're done."},{"startTime":3247.104,"endTime":3248.594,"body":"Thank you for staying with us, everybody."}]}