{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.149,"endTime":2.969,"body":"I guess we're on a kick"},{"startTime":0.149,"endTime":2.969,"body":"of related QA podcasts."},{"startTime":3.249,"endTime":8.589,"body":"In this podcast we're gonna explore"},{"startTime":3.249,"endTime":8.589,"body":"a exclamation that I heard once"},{"startTime":8.709,"endTime":11.83,"body":"at a networking event saying,"},{"startTime":8.709,"endTime":11.83,"body":"I have 500 bugs in my back."},{"startTime":12.555,"endTime":16.365,"body":"And we all recoiled and, I don't"},{"startTime":12.555,"endTime":16.365,"body":"know, made a protective sign of"},{"startTime":16.645,"endTime":18.435,"body":"whatever our religion of choice was."},{"startTime":18.455,"endTime":19.175,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":19.375,"endTime":20.805,"body":"500 bugs in your backlog."},{"startTime":21.095,"endTime":24.545,"body":"And I don't remember the summary"},{"startTime":21.095,"endTime":24.545,"body":"of that conversation, but for the"},{"startTime":24.545,"endTime":27.5,"body":"purposes of this podcast, we're"},{"startTime":24.545,"endTime":27.5,"body":"going to make up a new summary."},{"startTime":27.65,"endTime":28.03,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":28.23,"endTime":31.86,"body":"Listen, when I, when I first heard"},{"startTime":28.23,"endTime":31.86,"body":"this as a concept, theoretically,"},{"startTime":32.17,"endTime":36.43,"body":"metaphorically, philosophically I"},{"startTime":32.17,"endTime":36.43,"body":"said like who, who hurt you, who,"},{"startTime":36.43,"endTime":38.44,"body":"who inflicted this on your culture?"},{"startTime":38.7,"endTime":41.94,"body":"Because like, if, if there's 500 bugs"},{"startTime":38.7,"endTime":41.94,"body":"in your backlog, like something is"},{"startTime":41.94,"endTime":43.29,"body":"wrong with your corporate culture."},{"startTime":43.44,"endTime":45.17,"body":"Or development, culture, whatever."},{"startTime":45.32,"endTime":46.19,"body":"The culture of your organization."},{"startTime":46.42,"endTime":47.97,"body":"Something is wrong with your organization."},{"startTime":48.12,"endTime":49.71,"body":"Why do you have 500 bugs in your backlog?"},{"startTime":50.06,"endTime":51.31,"body":"What has gotten out of hand?"},{"startTime":51.58,"endTime":55.07,"body":"That was my initial,"},{"startTime":51.58,"endTime":55.07,"body":"immediate initial take."},{"startTime":55.22,"endTime":59.99,"body":"Coming from being a BA, QA"},{"startTime":55.22,"endTime":59.99,"body":"analyst real early in my career."},{"startTime":60.17,"endTime":61.55,"body":"Being a manager of QA."},{"startTime":61.57,"endTime":64.0,"body":"Hiring a bunch of QA analysts"},{"startTime":61.57,"endTime":64.0,"body":"and engineers over time."},{"startTime":64.15,"endTime":65.5,"body":"Yeah, I this was my immediate"},{"startTime":65.5,"endTime":65.83,"body":"response."},{"startTime":66.01,"endTime":70.38,"body":"I like your immediate response better"},{"startTime":66.01,"endTime":70.38,"body":"than what mine might have been right?"},{"startTime":70.46,"endTime":71.58,"body":"I have 500 bucks."},{"startTime":71.62,"endTime":72.54,"body":"What you been doing?"},{"startTime":73.06,"endTime":74.97,"body":"instead of Right."},{"startTime":75.22,"endTime":77.57,"body":"So like why do you have 500?"},{"startTime":77.6,"endTime":79.09,"body":"Why did you let it get this far?"},{"startTime":79.11,"endTime":81.96,"body":"It's like saying look my entire"},{"startTime":79.11,"endTime":81.96,"body":"house is burning down and"},{"startTime":81.96,"endTime":83.13,"body":"now the chimney is on fire."},{"startTime":83.21,"endTime":86.11,"body":"So what have you been doing this time?"},{"startTime":86.26,"endTime":86.68,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":86.98,"endTime":88.43,"body":"That, that would have been my reaction."},{"startTime":88.43,"endTime":90.66,"body":"But anyway, let's give people"},{"startTime":88.43,"endTime":90.66,"body":"the benefit of the doubt."},{"startTime":90.67,"endTime":94.89,"body":"Somebody just said, Look, I just"},{"startTime":90.67,"endTime":94.89,"body":"realized we have 500 bugs in my backlog."},{"startTime":95.22,"endTime":96.05,"body":"Now what?"},{"startTime":96.2,"endTime":98.88,"body":"So I think the context is important here."},{"startTime":99.03,"endTime":99.99,"body":"What is your backlog?"},{"startTime":99.99,"endTime":101.89,"body":"What are you doing with your team?"},{"startTime":101.96,"endTime":105.94,"body":"Is your team a firefighting"},{"startTime":101.96,"endTime":105.94,"body":"team that is simply just taking"},{"startTime":105.94,"endTime":107.33,"body":"these bugs from somebody?"},{"startTime":107.48,"endTime":112.73,"body":"Somebody's and just whittling those down"},{"startTime":107.48,"endTime":112.73,"body":"and if you have 500 hopefully they're"},{"startTime":112.73,"endTime":117.35,"body":"prioritized in some way So that's one"},{"startTime":112.73,"endTime":117.35,"body":"kind of easy out right if you like"},{"startTime":117.5,"endTime":121.81,"body":"Assuming that's not the case and you're"},{"startTime":117.5,"endTime":121.81,"body":"just another Development team that just"},{"startTime":121.81,"endTime":125.43,"body":"happens to have a deep backlog because"},{"startTime":121.81,"endTime":125.43,"body":"you have 500 bugs in your backlog"},{"startTime":125.58,"endTime":127.91,"body":"This person who is vocalizing."},{"startTime":127.96,"endTime":129.1,"body":"I have 500 bugs."},{"startTime":129.15,"endTime":130.16,"body":"Who are they?"},{"startTime":130.18,"endTime":131.37,"body":"What persona?"},{"startTime":131.37,"endTime":132.72,"body":"Is that a product person?"},{"startTime":133.02,"endTime":133.66,"body":"Is that it?"},{"startTime":133.66,"endTime":135.06,"body":"It really doesn't matter in the long run."},{"startTime":135.35,"endTime":138.96,"body":"It could be anybody on the team that"},{"startTime":135.35,"endTime":138.96,"body":"says, yikes, 500 is a big number."},{"startTime":139.11,"endTime":139.79,"body":"What now?"},{"startTime":139.8,"endTime":143.825,"body":"Well, to me, the product manager,"},{"startTime":139.8,"endTime":143.825,"body":"I don't really, it doesn't"},{"startTime":143.825,"endTime":145.22,"body":"really matter to me who it is."},{"startTime":145.515,"endTime":149.385,"body":"Vocalizing that they have, I"},{"startTime":145.515,"endTime":149.385,"body":"also assuming it's 500 open bugs."},{"startTime":149.395,"endTime":149.725,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":149.835,"endTime":152.165,"body":"Cause there's 500 bugs and"},{"startTime":149.835,"endTime":152.165,"body":"you select all and close them."},{"startTime":152.315,"endTime":153.365,"body":"Then congratulations."},{"startTime":153.365,"endTime":154.355,"body":"You have no bugs anymore."},{"startTime":154.355,"endTime":154.485,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":154.485,"endTime":158.28,"body":"You close them all but , to the QA"},{"startTime":154.485,"endTime":158.28,"body":"manager inside of me, it worries"},{"startTime":158.28,"endTime":161.62,"body":"me that your product is built on"},{"startTime":158.28,"endTime":161.62,"body":"a mountain of constantly shifting"},{"startTime":161.62,"endTime":164.28,"body":"sand and that everything's going"},{"startTime":161.62,"endTime":164.28,"body":"to collapse , at any moment."},{"startTime":164.56,"endTime":167.675,"body":"So like, I think that there"},{"startTime":164.56,"endTime":167.675,"body":"are, cultural problems."},{"startTime":167.675,"endTime":171.945,"body":"That's, that's my initial, suspected"},{"startTime":167.675,"endTime":171.945,"body":"area to start poking at, which is either"},{"startTime":172.205,"endTime":176.415,"body":"your development team is constantly"},{"startTime":172.205,"endTime":176.415,"body":"under pressure to deliver features."},{"startTime":176.72,"endTime":180.11,"body":"And nobody cares about the technical"},{"startTime":176.72,"endTime":180.11,"body":"infrastructure, architectural"},{"startTime":180.11,"endTime":182.06,"body":"runway, whatever term you use for it."},{"startTime":182.21,"endTime":184.29,"body":"Nobody cares that your"},{"startTime":182.21,"endTime":184.29,"body":"application has to get rebooted."},{"startTime":184.3,"endTime":186.48,"body":"Nobody cares that they,"},{"startTime":184.3,"endTime":186.48,"body":"that your people do care."},{"startTime":186.53,"endTime":190.18,"body":"Just not the, just not the right people"},{"startTime":186.53,"endTime":190.18,"body":"care that your developers are up in the"},{"startTime":190.18,"endTime":191.97,"body":"middle of the night every other day."},{"startTime":192.22,"endTime":196.08,"body":"You know, rebooting your servers or"},{"startTime":192.22,"endTime":196.08,"body":"dealing with memory issues or trying to"},{"startTime":196.09,"endTime":197.79,"body":"calm the database, talk the database off."},{"startTime":198.1,"endTime":201.51,"body":"Like, listen, your database is at"},{"startTime":198.1,"endTime":201.51,"body":"the club drunk and it needs to get"},{"startTime":201.51,"endTime":203.83,"body":"convinced not to drive home and get an"},{"startTime":203.83,"endTime":204.2,"body":"Uber."},{"startTime":204.26,"endTime":204.53,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":204.68,"endTime":204.88,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":205.03,"endTime":206.26,"body":"You're so right on that."},{"startTime":206.26,"endTime":206.47,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":206.51,"endTime":207.74,"body":"I mean, look, there's."},{"startTime":208.665,"endTime":210.135,"body":"Different scenarios here, right?"},{"startTime":210.135,"endTime":214.365,"body":"One is if people have watched"},{"startTime":210.135,"endTime":214.365,"body":"our other podcast about, well"},{"startTime":214.375,"endTime":216.445,"body":"I don't have a QA on my team."},{"startTime":216.475,"endTime":217.555,"body":"That, that podcast, yeah."},{"startTime":217.865,"endTime":221.45,"body":"Maybe you really don't have a QA on your"},{"startTime":217.865,"endTime":221.45,"body":"team and you have 500 bugs  and your"},{"startTime":221.45,"endTime":225.62,"body":"developers are just insular and they're"},{"startTime":221.45,"endTime":225.62,"body":"thinking that all they do is develop."},{"startTime":225.62,"endTime":226.49,"body":"Maybe that's a scenario."},{"startTime":226.52,"endTime":226.88,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":226.91,"endTime":228.2,"body":"Well, that's, that's,"},{"startTime":226.91,"endTime":228.2,"body":"it's easy to fix that."},{"startTime":228.205,"endTime":229.01,"body":"That's, but there is that."},{"startTime":229.22,"endTime":231.77,"body":"Yeah, it, well, you"},{"startTime":229.22,"endTime":231.77,"body":"watch, watch that podcast."},{"startTime":231.77,"endTime":234.42,"body":"'cause in that podcast we were talking"},{"startTime":231.77,"endTime":234.42,"body":"about, Basically the opposite of what"},{"startTime":234.42,"endTime":235.29,"body":"we're talking about in this podcast."},{"startTime":235.3,"endTime":239.64,"body":"In that podcast, we were talking about"},{"startTime":235.3,"endTime":239.64,"body":"a very advanced development team who"},{"startTime":239.67,"endTime":243.99,"body":"understood quality, who had testing"},{"startTime":239.67,"endTime":243.99,"body":"skill set, who, they were cross"},{"startTime":243.99,"endTime":247.12,"body":"functional, and they were in control"},{"startTime":243.99,"endTime":247.12,"body":"of all the variables that it takes"},{"startTime":247.29,"endTime":249.08,"body":"to make and maintain great software."},{"startTime":249.23,"endTime":251.35,"body":"In this, I'm saying something's"},{"startTime":249.23,"endTime":251.35,"body":"wrong with your culture."},{"startTime":251.35,"endTime":253.69,"body":"I guess when I'm saying"},{"startTime":251.35,"endTime":253.69,"body":"culture, that might be, maybe"},{"startTime":253.69,"endTime":254.66,"body":"that's too heady of a word."},{"startTime":254.82,"endTime":256.53,"body":"Something's wrong with your process."},{"startTime":256.68,"endTime":258.28,"body":"Let me, let me boil it"},{"startTime":256.68,"endTime":258.28,"body":"down to your process."},{"startTime":258.31,"endTime":258.58,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":258.73,"endTime":260.52,"body":"Okay, maybe there's a lot of handoffs."},{"startTime":260.73,"endTime":262.95,"body":"Maybe there's a lot of people"},{"startTime":260.73,"endTime":262.95,"body":"fighting for ownership of little"},{"startTime":262.95,"endTime":263.8,"body":"pieces of the application."},{"startTime":263.97,"endTime":265.41,"body":"Maybe things are split up too much."},{"startTime":265.65,"endTime":268.12,"body":"You know, there's a million"},{"startTime":265.65,"endTime":268.12,"body":"things of maybe, right?"},{"startTime":268.22,"endTime":268.8,"body":"Here's another one."},{"startTime":269.0,"endTime":271.76,"body":"Maybe you have a rogue QA person Right."},{"startTime":271.76,"endTime":273.95,"body":"That's just writing bugs like crazy."},{"startTime":273.95,"endTime":275.64,"body":"And they don't really understand."},{"startTime":275.79,"endTime":278.82,"body":"They've not been brought in and aligned."},{"startTime":278.97,"endTime":284.33,"body":"With the product and or development"},{"startTime":278.97,"endTime":284.33,"body":"teams to say, Hey, this is how we need"},{"startTime":284.33,"endTime":286.835,"body":"to best utilize your skill on the team."},{"startTime":286.835,"endTime":290.215,"body":"You need to help us understand and"},{"startTime":286.835,"endTime":290.215,"body":"not write our stuff up after the fact."},{"startTime":290.365,"endTime":293.275,"body":"We need you at the beginning to help"},{"startTime":290.365,"endTime":293.275,"body":"us get things done in the right way."},{"startTime":293.425,"endTime":293.675,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":293.675,"endTime":296.215,"body":"I think, let's unpack a"},{"startTime":293.675,"endTime":296.215,"body":"little bit of that, right?"},{"startTime":296.215,"endTime":302.085,"body":"So, yeah, the previous podcast was"},{"startTime":296.215,"endTime":302.085,"body":"about a team that owned quality, right?"},{"startTime":302.255,"endTime":307.575,"body":"This podcast is about really we have"},{"startTime":302.255,"endTime":307.575,"body":"a situation at hand and how did it"},{"startTime":307.575,"endTime":310.105,"body":"arise and what do you do about it?"},{"startTime":310.425,"endTime":312.025,"body":"So, I want to go in reverse order now."},{"startTime":312.035,"endTime":312.985,"body":"Rogue QA."},{"startTime":313.135,"endTime":314.855,"body":"I think that kind of does a"},{"startTime":313.135,"endTime":314.855,"body":"little bit of a disservice."},{"startTime":314.935,"endTime":319.225,"body":"Service to the person because"},{"startTime":314.935,"endTime":319.225,"body":"they are a QA person and their"},{"startTime":319.225,"endTime":322.595,"body":"job is to write up bugs and that's"},{"startTime":319.225,"endTime":322.595,"body":"what they're doing somewhat of"},{"startTime":322.595,"endTime":324.865,"body":"a maybe a CIA type of situation."},{"startTime":324.875,"endTime":327.045,"body":"If they didn't, then they would"},{"startTime":324.875,"endTime":327.045,"body":"get in trouble type of thing."},{"startTime":327.045,"endTime":332.0,"body":"But you know, if a field on a"},{"startTime":327.045,"endTime":332.0,"body":"screen is misaligned by two pixels."},{"startTime":332.15,"endTime":333.18,"body":"Technically, that's a bug."},{"startTime":333.24,"endTime":337.73,"body":"Technically, you could argue that, but"},{"startTime":333.24,"endTime":337.73,"body":"is, is the whole thing still usable, I"},{"startTime":337.74,"endTime":338.42,"body":"see where you're going."},{"startTime":338.42,"endTime":342.375,"body":"But if you're drawing a circle around"},{"startTime":338.42,"endTime":342.375,"body":"your QA department and then you're saying"},{"startTime":342.625,"endTime":348.105,"body":"this, this QA department is measured and"},{"startTime":342.625,"endTime":348.105,"body":"incented Based on the number of bugs they"},{"startTime":348.105,"endTime":351.925,"body":"find and the number of bugs that slip out"},{"startTime":348.105,"endTime":351.925,"body":"to customers and the number of whatever,"},{"startTime":352.125,"endTime":357.575,"body":"of course, they're going to be kicking and"},{"startTime":352.125,"endTime":357.575,"body":"streaming to, to not let a single piece of"},{"startTime":357.575,"endTime":362.365,"body":"functionality out that could potentially"},{"startTime":357.575,"endTime":362.365,"body":"come back on them because that's the way"},{"startTime":362.365,"endTime":364.385,"body":"the numbers and the, the, the metrics go"},{"startTime":364.48,"endTime":367.45,"body":"and you know what you know, as we talked"},{"startTime":364.48,"endTime":367.45,"body":"about in the last podcast that I, I had"},{"startTime":367.45,"endTime":371.86,"body":"to really hold myself back from digging"},{"startTime":367.45,"endTime":371.86,"body":"into is the culture where, you The"},{"startTime":371.86,"endTime":374.25,"body":"Sprint is two weeks, ten business days."},{"startTime":374.4,"endTime":376.43,"body":"Development works for"},{"startTime":374.4,"endTime":376.43,"body":"nine and a half days."},{"startTime":376.58,"endTime":379.6,"body":"And on the last day of the Sprint,"},{"startTime":376.58,"endTime":379.6,"body":"they put it into the QA status."},{"startTime":379.94,"endTime":383.11,"body":"Send it over to the QA"},{"startTime":379.94,"endTime":383.11,"body":"column, team, whatever."},{"startTime":383.4,"endTime":387.62,"body":"And then, and then, and then And"},{"startTime":383.4,"endTime":387.62,"body":"then the message is communicated"},{"startTime":387.63,"endTime":389.22,"body":"from development to product."},{"startTime":389.37,"endTime":391.59,"body":"Not QA, not, not team, right?"},{"startTime":391.59,"endTime":392.71,"body":"Cause we're not teams at this point."},{"startTime":392.71,"endTime":395.38,"body":"There's circles around all of"},{"startTime":392.71,"endTime":395.38,"body":"our, all of our departments."},{"startTime":395.52,"endTime":398.88,"body":"The message is communicated is"},{"startTime":395.52,"endTime":398.88,"body":"development finished in the sprint."},{"startTime":399.03,"endTime":401.74,"body":"And I don't like these QA"},{"startTime":399.03,"endTime":401.74,"body":"people just can't keep up there."},{"startTime":401.74,"endTime":403.19,"body":"They're, they're being a bottleneck."},{"startTime":403.425,"endTime":406.405,"body":"everyone listening to this,"},{"startTime":403.425,"endTime":406.405,"body":"hopefully everyone listening to this"},{"startTime":406.475,"endTime":409.925,"body":"understands that what I just did,"},{"startTime":406.475,"endTime":409.925,"body":"that's a game we're playing games."},{"startTime":409.985,"endTime":414.385,"body":"Of course, we're not being a team and"},{"startTime":409.985,"endTime":414.385,"body":"maybe they do, maybe they understand it."},{"startTime":414.535,"endTime":418.115,"body":"But also when you're incented on"},{"startTime":414.535,"endTime":418.115,"body":"things you might understand that"},{"startTime":418.115,"endTime":422.405,"body":"it's a game, but also you gotta"},{"startTime":418.115,"endTime":422.405,"body":"play the game Or else you gotta keep"},{"startTime":422.405,"endTime":423.825,"body":"that resume updating Yeah, right."},{"startTime":424.085,"endTime":426.0,"body":"You gotta play the game if you"},{"startTime":424.085,"endTime":426.0,"body":"want the incentives because"},{"startTime":426.0,"endTime":428.005,"body":"you are incented that way"},{"startTime":428.205,"endTime":431.785,"body":"Absolutely, but when you get up to like"},{"startTime":428.205,"endTime":431.785,"body":"when you get up to the leadership's"},{"startTime":431.785,"endTime":435.455,"body":"level and dare I say products"},{"startTime":431.785,"endTime":435.455,"body":"level Those are the right people"},{"startTime":435.485,"endTime":438.825,"body":"to push through all this stuff, to"},{"startTime":435.485,"endTime":438.825,"body":"be like, look, you guys are a team."},{"startTime":438.995,"endTime":442.125,"body":"Like nobody cares that it made through"},{"startTime":438.995,"endTime":442.125,"body":"one phase or another phase or whatever."},{"startTime":442.345,"endTime":443.415,"body":"I care that it's in production."},{"startTime":443.415,"endTime":446.265,"body":"I had a CEO one time talking"},{"startTime":443.415,"endTime":446.265,"body":"about definition of done where I'm"},{"startTime":446.265,"endTime":447.685,"body":"skipping ahead here, but that's fine."},{"startTime":447.715,"endTime":448.655,"body":"Talking about definition done."},{"startTime":448.855,"endTime":452.185,"body":"He's this was rampant in that"},{"startTime":448.855,"endTime":452.185,"body":"culture at a place I worked one"},{"startTime":452.185,"endTime":453.845,"body":"time of people saying it's done."},{"startTime":453.995,"endTime":455.725,"body":"It's done, but now it's"},{"startTime":453.995,"endTime":455.725,"body":"got to go through QA."},{"startTime":455.915,"endTime":457.725,"body":"It's done, but it's got to"},{"startTime":455.915,"endTime":457.725,"body":"go through documentation."},{"startTime":457.725,"endTime":459.815,"body":"It's done, but it's got to go through UAT."},{"startTime":459.905,"endTime":461.085,"body":"It's done, but people"},{"startTime":459.905,"endTime":461.085,"body":"do that all the time."},{"startTime":461.085,"endTime":461.925,"body":"Oh, it's totally done."},{"startTime":461.925,"endTime":462.265,"body":"It's done."},{"startTime":462.265,"endTime":462.795,"body":"Everything's great."},{"startTime":462.795,"endTime":463.365,"body":"I'm so great."},{"startTime":463.515,"endTime":467.075,"body":"And the CEO one time, I don't remember"},{"startTime":463.515,"endTime":467.075,"body":"where he was, but he stamped his"},{"startTime":467.075,"endTime":470.065,"body":"little fist down on the table and"},{"startTime":467.075,"endTime":470.065,"body":"he's like, I don't want anyone to"},{"startTime":470.065,"endTime":472.495,"body":"ever say something is done ever again."},{"startTime":472.645,"endTime":475.625,"body":"Until it's in production and"},{"startTime":472.645,"endTime":475.625,"body":"a customer and a customer can,"},{"startTime":475.665,"endTime":477.775,"body":"and it's in the customer's hand"},{"startTime":475.665,"endTime":477.775,"body":"and the customer can use it."},{"startTime":477.925,"endTime":480.835,"body":"And the customer is aware that they"},{"startTime":477.925,"endTime":480.835,"body":"have the ability to use, maybe you"},{"startTime":480.835,"endTime":481.825,"body":"can't control customers, right?"},{"startTime":481.825,"endTime":483.235,"body":"But it's in the cost."},{"startTime":483.245,"endTime":485.155,"body":"It's the customer has the ability."},{"startTime":485.305,"endTime":488.375,"body":"To go use it and have it work"},{"startTime":485.305,"endTime":488.375,"body":"end to end the way that we"},{"startTime":488.375,"endTime":489.355,"body":"promised that it would work."},{"startTime":489.535,"endTime":492.775,"body":"Once he laid down that mandate that"},{"startTime":489.535,"endTime":492.775,"body":"the culture started to get better."},{"startTime":492.825,"endTime":494.395,"body":"Quite honestly, the culture"},{"startTime":492.825,"endTime":494.395,"body":"started to get better."},{"startTime":494.585,"endTime":496.305,"body":"We had no product people in"},{"startTime":494.585,"endTime":496.305,"body":"that company at the time."},{"startTime":496.305,"endTime":498.215,"body":"So this is something a"},{"startTime":496.305,"endTime":498.215,"body":"product person would do."},{"startTime":498.445,"endTime":500.305,"body":"Is say, hey, I don't care"},{"startTime":498.445,"endTime":500.305,"body":"about all these games."},{"startTime":500.605,"endTime":502.295,"body":"We shouldn't be incented by these games."},{"startTime":502.305,"endTime":502.575,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":502.635,"endTime":505.405,"body":"We should be incented by value"},{"startTime":502.635,"endTime":505.405,"body":"actually delivered into customer hands."},{"startTime":505.555,"endTime":507.035,"body":"Sorry, I don't know why"},{"startTime":505.555,"endTime":507.035,"body":"I did it, Kevin Kirk."},{"startTime":507.265,"endTime":508.855,"body":"Value delivered into customer hands."},{"startTime":508.855,"endTime":508.925,"body":"It's"},{"startTime":508.925,"endTime":510.605,"body":"gotta be in their hands"},{"startTime":508.925,"endTime":510.605,"body":"at the end of the day."},{"startTime":510.755,"endTime":512.025,"body":"Absolutely agree with that."},{"startTime":512.025,"endTime":517.055,"body":"So, companies that just"},{"startTime":512.025,"endTime":517.055,"body":"simply prize that done, right?"},{"startTime":517.205,"endTime":520.315,"body":"They're looking at charts or whatever"},{"startTime":517.205,"endTime":520.315,"body":"some kind of dashboard maybe."},{"startTime":520.465,"endTime":522.905,"body":"And they're just saying, well,"},{"startTime":520.465,"endTime":522.905,"body":"how many done this sprint?"},{"startTime":523.055,"endTime":524.655,"body":"Then the development teams..."},{"startTime":524.94,"endTime":525.44,"body":"Plural."},{"startTime":525.64,"endTime":528.18,"body":"They're all going to play to that"},{"startTime":525.64,"endTime":528.18,"body":"and they're going to say, we're done."},{"startTime":528.2,"endTime":528.53,"body":"We're done."},{"startTime":528.54,"endTime":528.86,"body":"We're done."},{"startTime":528.87,"endTime":529.22,"body":"We're done."},{"startTime":529.37,"endTime":529.67,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":529.89,"endTime":530.34,"body":"The bottom"},{"startTime":530.34,"endTime":532.81,"body":"line is just that, like you"},{"startTime":530.34,"endTime":532.81,"body":"said, we play games, right?"},{"startTime":533.09,"endTime":536.73,"body":"But all of these things aside,"},{"startTime":533.09,"endTime":536.73,"body":"who really pays our bills?"},{"startTime":536.73,"endTime":538.05,"body":"It's the customer!"},{"startTime":538.16,"endTime":542.56,"body":"So if the customer doesn't see value,"},{"startTime":538.16,"endTime":542.56,"body":"they don't have to recognize value."},{"startTime":542.655,"endTime":547.105,"body":"Give the product to the customer"},{"startTime":542.655,"endTime":547.105,"body":"and let them feel it touch it You"},{"startTime":547.105,"endTime":549.965,"body":"know poke it whatever they do with"},{"startTime":547.105,"endTime":549.965,"body":"it if they love it great if they"},{"startTime":549.965,"endTime":551.545,"body":"don't great Some people are gonna go."},{"startTime":551.545,"endTime":552.525,"body":"What do you mean?"},{"startTime":552.65,"endTime":553.3,"body":"Okay, fine."},{"startTime":553.31,"endTime":557.54,"body":"Look if they love it and they tell you"},{"startTime":553.31,"endTime":557.54,"body":"they love it then fine if they tell you"},{"startTime":557.54,"endTime":560.31,"body":"they hate it I say fine, here's why."},{"startTime":560.61,"endTime":562.47,"body":"You did what you were supposed to do."},{"startTime":562.5,"endTime":564.0,"body":"You got it in their hands."},{"startTime":564.05,"endTime":566.59,"body":"And now learn why they don't like it."},{"startTime":566.74,"endTime":567.11,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":567.26,"endTime":569.05,"body":"As opposed to saying, well we're done."},{"startTime":569.2,"endTime":569.46,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":569.49,"endTime":570.23,"body":"We're done."},{"startTime":570.53,"endTime":571.95,"body":"Customer doesn't know yet, but we're done."},{"startTime":572.1,"endTime":572.5,"body":"Really?"},{"startTime":572.56,"endTime":572.84,"body":"Are you?"},{"startTime":573.145,"endTime":575.575,"body":"The old, the old arguing agile"},{"startTime":573.145,"endTime":575.575,"body":"pushback on what you're saying"},{"startTime":575.575,"endTime":577.585,"body":"is like, I understand what you're"},{"startTime":575.575,"endTime":577.585,"body":"saying and everything, but like, it"},{"startTime":577.585,"endTime":578.295,"body":"was like, what are you going to do?"},{"startTime":578.295,"endTime":579.325,"body":"Change, change, incentive."},{"startTime":579.335,"endTime":582.335,"body":"You're going to write a new incentive"},{"startTime":579.335,"endTime":582.335,"body":"plan and go to finance and go to"},{"startTime":582.335,"endTime":583.565,"body":"the CFO and get it signed off."},{"startTime":583.565,"endTime":584.725,"body":"Like, get out of here, kid."},{"startTime":584.735,"endTime":587.305,"body":"You're just some, you, you're,"},{"startTime":584.735,"endTime":587.305,"body":"you're just some pointy head that"},{"startTime":587.305,"endTime":588.365,"body":"deals with development teams."},{"startTime":588.645,"endTime":593.545,"body":"Get out of here with all your new fangled"},{"startTime":588.645,"endTime":593.545,"body":"scrum mastery, product management."},{"startTime":593.755,"endTime":595.335,"body":"We know how to do software development."},{"startTime":595.485,"endTime":598.785,"body":"Yeah, yeah, you kind of do at that"},{"startTime":595.485,"endTime":598.785,"body":"point, I'm just going to say, you"},{"startTime":598.785,"endTime":601.815,"body":"kind of do, but your customers"},{"startTime":598.785,"endTime":601.815,"body":"are leaving you by the droves."},{"startTime":601.89,"endTime":604.59,"body":"Whenever this topic, something"},{"startTime":601.89,"endTime":604.59,"body":"like this comes up, I always tell"},{"startTime":604.59,"endTime":605.92,"body":"people you better fix the money."},{"startTime":605.92,"endTime":608.66,"body":"You better fix the incentives or"},{"startTime":605.92,"endTime":608.66,"body":"you're not fixing these problems."},{"startTime":608.81,"endTime":610.84,"body":"Again, which again goes"},{"startTime":608.81,"endTime":610.84,"body":"back to the my point."},{"startTime":610.84,"endTime":611.94,"body":"Number one is a culture."},{"startTime":612.01,"endTime":615.49,"body":"It's like it rooted deep in the culture"},{"startTime":615.58,"endTime":618.12,"body":"look you mentioned the c word"},{"startTime":615.58,"endTime":618.12,"body":"So I just want to kind of just"},{"startTime":618.12,"endTime":619.84,"body":"quickly say What is culture?"},{"startTime":620.1,"endTime":622.03,"body":"You know, can you touch and feel culture?"},{"startTime":622.06,"endTime":622.95,"body":"Can you change it?"},{"startTime":622.95,"endTime":625.09,"body":"If you can't touch and feel"},{"startTime":622.95,"endTime":625.09,"body":"it, how do you change it?"},{"startTime":625.29,"endTime":626.18,"body":"Gently massage it."},{"startTime":626.18,"endTime":627.45,"body":"Can you gently massage it?"},{"startTime":627.46,"endTime":628.23,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":628.23,"endTime":629.11,"body":"No, no, you can't."},{"startTime":629.11,"endTime":629.38,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":629.42,"endTime":630.21,"body":"And and so"},{"startTime":630.335,"endTime":634.675,"body":"culture really is a product"},{"startTime":630.335,"endTime":634.675,"body":"of largely three variables."},{"startTime":634.825,"endTime":639.235,"body":"Culture is a product of"},{"startTime":634.825,"endTime":639.235,"body":"people, policies and processes."},{"startTime":639.385,"endTime":644.255,"body":"Now I will lay on a gentle fourth"},{"startTime":639.385,"endTime":644.255,"body":"on there, which is politics."},{"startTime":644.405,"endTime":647.935,"body":"You can definitely impact three"},{"startTime":644.405,"endTime":647.935,"body":"out of the four and the fourth"},{"startTime":647.935,"endTime":649.285,"body":"one will take care of itself."},{"startTime":649.435,"endTime":650.335,"body":"One hopes, right?"},{"startTime":650.355,"endTime":654.735,"body":"If you can take care of the three"},{"startTime":650.355,"endTime":654.735,"body":"that you can actually impact people,"},{"startTime":654.885,"endTime":656.835,"body":"the the, the processes and so on."},{"startTime":656.865,"endTime":659.195,"body":"You can definitely impact those things."},{"startTime":659.455,"endTime":663.845,"body":"So unless you're taking that into"},{"startTime":659.455,"endTime":663.845,"body":"account, you're simply just playing"},{"startTime":663.855,"endTime":667.535,"body":"games that, as we were saying earlier,"},{"startTime":663.855,"endTime":667.535,"body":"that's all you're doing, right?"},{"startTime":667.635,"endTime":669.255,"body":"And customers will find that out."},{"startTime":669.405,"endTime":672.845,"body":"And when you find out that they've"},{"startTime":669.405,"endTime":672.845,"body":"realized all this, it's too"},{"startTime":672.845,"endTime":673.175,"body":"late."},{"startTime":673.325,"endTime":673.625,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":673.775,"endTime":678.015,"body":"Well, usually it'll be too late by the"},{"startTime":673.775,"endTime":678.015,"body":"time that you turn the ship around."},{"startTime":678.035,"endTime":681.875,"body":"You know, it's going to be like, that's"},{"startTime":678.035,"endTime":681.875,"body":"the only, the only reason that people try"},{"startTime":681.875,"endTime":685.285,"body":"to start correcting culture is because"},{"startTime":681.875,"endTime":685.285,"body":"you have very, very, very serious."},{"startTime":685.345,"endTime":687.505,"body":"You have issues that are already there."},{"startTime":687.645,"endTime":688.525,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":688.6,"endTime":692.03,"body":"You started going down the issue"},{"startTime":688.6,"endTime":692.03,"body":"real early of prioritization."},{"startTime":692.13,"endTime":694.17,"body":"I think you, you were the first"},{"startTime":692.13,"endTime":694.17,"body":"one to mention prioritization."},{"startTime":694.245,"endTime":698.825,"body":"The other shop that I saw this type of"},{"startTime":694.245,"endTime":698.825,"body":"thing have a problem with this type of"},{"startTime":698.825,"endTime":703.365,"body":"thing is they had no, they had, they had"},{"startTime":698.825,"endTime":703.365,"body":"I want to stop at the edge of saying poor."},{"startTime":703.375,"endTime":708.545,"body":"They, they had, they, they needed help"},{"startTime":703.375,"endTime":708.545,"body":"with their product management facilities."},{"startTime":708.605,"endTime":708.755,"body":"They"},{"startTime":708.755,"endTime":710.765,"body":"had suboptimal product management."},{"startTime":710.77,"endTime":711.815,"body":"They, they did, they did"},{"startTime":712.025,"endTime":714.665,"body":"practices specifically with"},{"startTime":712.025,"endTime":714.665,"body":"regard to prioritization."},{"startTime":714.665,"endTime":714.845,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":714.995,"endTime":717.79,"body":"They needed a lot of help with"},{"startTime":714.995,"endTime":717.79,"body":"prioritization  and also like that,"},{"startTime":718.08,"endTime":722.745,"body":"like if you think about like running a"},{"startTime":718.08,"endTime":722.745,"body":"business, if you have this problem where"},{"startTime":722.895,"endTime":726.445,"body":"You have 500 bugs it means the bugs are"},{"startTime":722.895,"endTime":726.445,"body":"not getting worked on and I think of"},{"startTime":726.445,"endTime":730.75,"body":"the same the same way I think of Where"},{"startTime":726.445,"endTime":730.75,"body":"you have organizations that are on like"},{"startTime":730.76,"endTime":734.19,"body":"super old technology like windows xp or"},{"startTime":730.76,"endTime":734.19,"body":"when it's like I remember back in the"},{"startTime":734.19,"endTime":735.69,"body":"day when people were on windows 2000"},{"startTime":735.815,"endTime":737.755,"body":"I was talking about Windows 2000"},{"startTime":735.815,"endTime":737.755,"body":"because I was trying to illustrate."},{"startTime":738.025,"endTime":741.615,"body":"Like many years later, even when"},{"startTime":738.025,"endTime":741.615,"body":"superior operating systems, I"},{"startTime":741.615,"endTime":744.005,"body":"don't know, were there a superior"},{"startTime":741.615,"endTime":744.005,"body":"operating systems in the 2000?"},{"startTime":744.155,"endTime":744.835,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":744.835,"endTime":745.465,"body":"I don't think so."},{"startTime":745.685,"endTime":749.245,"body":"When superior operating systems"},{"startTime":745.685,"endTime":749.245,"body":"came along, those business"},{"startTime":749.245,"endTime":750.515,"body":"systems were still run."},{"startTime":750.85,"endTime":755.92,"body":"On that old windows 2000 platform,"},{"startTime":750.85,"endTime":755.92,"body":"because upgrading was deemed as like,"},{"startTime":755.92,"endTime":761.26,"body":"well, there's no money in just retesting"},{"startTime":755.92,"endTime":761.26,"body":"the software on a later O S you know,"},{"startTime":761.26,"endTime":762.53,"body":"there's, there's no money in that."},{"startTime":762.73,"endTime":766.13,"body":"So I'm not even going to bother not"},{"startTime":762.73,"endTime":766.13,"body":"until we wanted to do new features"},{"startTime":766.13,"endTime":768.9,"body":"that required new operating systems."},{"startTime":769.05,"endTime":772.53,"body":"Where we forced to go through the"},{"startTime":769.05,"endTime":772.53,"body":"upgrade, but again, this is an effect"},{"startTime":772.55,"endTime":776.77,"body":"of product if you don't have product"},{"startTime":772.55,"endTime":776.77,"body":"No one is looking at the future."},{"startTime":776.78,"endTime":778.03,"body":"No one is making these decisions."},{"startTime":778.25,"endTime":783.08,"body":"Maybe you have a really good tech lead CTO"},{"startTime":778.25,"endTime":783.08,"body":"whatever right who's kind of forcing you"},{"startTime":783.08,"endTime":788.38,"body":"to say hey this new technology is out and"},{"startTime":783.08,"endTime":788.38,"body":"we can't run windows 2000 machines, right?"},{"startTime":788.725,"endTime":790.335,"body":"On whatever, trying to build data models."},{"startTime":790.485,"endTime":793.715,"body":"This is where Microsoft said, look,"},{"startTime":790.485,"endTime":793.715,"body":"if you're not going to upgrade, right."},{"startTime":793.815,"endTime":795.055,"body":"We're just stopping support."},{"startTime":795.125,"endTime":795.665,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":795.665,"endTime":795.915,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":795.915,"endTime":796.285,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":796.305,"endTime":796.475,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":796.505,"endTime":798.715,"body":"So a CTO would say, wow, we need support."},{"startTime":798.815,"endTime":799.075,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":799.375,"endTime":799.635,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":799.685,"endTime":800.855,"body":"So there's this side of it."},{"startTime":800.915,"endTime":803.375,"body":"Windows used to have a"},{"startTime":800.915,"endTime":803.375,"body":"10 year support life."},{"startTime":803.375,"endTime":803.805,"body":"Back then."},{"startTime":803.805,"endTime":804.145,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":804.185,"endTime":804.395,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":804.425,"endTime":807.155,"body":"Right now, now AWS is"},{"startTime":804.425,"endTime":807.155,"body":"like, Oh, Oh, it's, it's."},{"startTime":807.255,"endTime":808.495,"body":"It's, it's 7 p."},{"startTime":808.495,"endTime":808.725,"body":"m."},{"startTime":808.735,"endTime":809.695,"body":"It's Tuesday."},{"startTime":809.905,"endTime":812.965,"body":"Oh, we're, we don't support"},{"startTime":809.905,"endTime":812.965,"body":"the previous version anymore."},{"startTime":813.115,"endTime":813.245,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":813.265,"endTime":814.675,"body":"They, they, they bring you along."},{"startTime":814.685,"endTime":816.585,"body":"Okay, the, the cloud"},{"startTime":814.685,"endTime":816.585,"body":"like forces you along."},{"startTime":816.585,"endTime":817.305,"body":"That's good and bad"},{"startTime":817.525,"endTime":819.055,"body":"also, but we're not gonna go there now."},{"startTime":819.055,"endTime":819.085,"body":"But"},{"startTime":819.295,"endTime":822.285,"body":"the, the, the point of me bringing"},{"startTime":819.295,"endTime":822.285,"body":"this up is, if you're in a situation"},{"startTime":822.285,"endTime":826.135,"body":"where you have 500 bugs in your backlog"},{"startTime":822.285,"endTime":826.135,"body":"and nobody's managing it and you're"},{"startTime":826.135,"endTime":828.835,"body":"a product manager and you come in or"},{"startTime":826.135,"endTime":828.835,"body":"you're a QA manager and you come in"},{"startTime":828.955,"endTime":833.015,"body":"it's going to take a bit of rolling"},{"startTime":828.955,"endTime":833.015,"body":"your sleeves up and getting into it, but"},{"startTime":833.085,"endTime":835.095,"body":"you can get out of this situation here."},{"startTime":835.105,"endTime":840.085,"body":"Here's my, here's a previous Matt"},{"startTime":835.105,"endTime":840.085,"body":"previous QA manager's suggestion for"},{"startTime":840.095,"endTime":845.365,"body":"getting out of this very real sticky"},{"startTime":840.095,"endTime":845.365,"body":"situation that you might find yourself"},{"startTime":845.475,"endTime":847.555,"body":"in of, I have 500 bugs in my backlog."},{"startTime":847.605,"endTime":847.875,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":847.885,"endTime":852.275,"body":"First of all you need a strategy to"},{"startTime":847.885,"endTime":852.275,"body":"maintain your current architecture, no"},{"startTime":852.275,"endTime":856.505,"body":"matter how behind you are to maintain your"},{"startTime":852.275,"endTime":856.505,"body":"current architecture and move forward."},{"startTime":856.655,"endTime":860.915,"body":"To, to, to continually pave"},{"startTime":856.655,"endTime":860.915,"body":"that architectural runway so"},{"startTime":860.915,"endTime":863.975,"body":"you can launch bigger and bigger"},{"startTime":860.915,"endTime":863.975,"body":"planes as technology grows and"},{"startTime":863.975,"endTime":865.315,"body":"expands and et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":865.325,"endTime":865.635,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":865.665,"endTime":865.945,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":866.015,"endTime":867.585,"body":"Here's what I would do immediately."},{"startTime":867.735,"endTime":871.745,"body":"Immediately, I would start going"},{"startTime":867.735,"endTime":871.745,"body":"to product and saying whatever our"},{"startTime":871.745,"endTime":875.395,"body":"capacity is for our team, all of"},{"startTime":871.745,"endTime":875.395,"body":"our teams across the entire program."},{"startTime":875.395,"endTime":876.475,"body":"If you're a larger program, right?"},{"startTime":876.545,"endTime":876.805,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":876.93,"endTime":881.06,"body":"I demand the 20 percent of your capacity."},{"startTime":881.21,"endTime":886.96,"body":"To be put aside for whatever the"},{"startTime":881.21,"endTime":886.96,"body":"team, by proxy of a CTO development"},{"startTime":886.97,"endTime":890.51,"body":"leads, whatever it's up to the team"},{"startTime":886.97,"endTime":890.51,"body":"to, to, to decide what to bring."},{"startTime":890.51,"endTime":894.73,"body":"But basically the, the CTO and"},{"startTime":890.51,"endTime":894.73,"body":"or their staff of tech leads."},{"startTime":894.945,"endTime":895.975,"body":"Or development matter."},{"startTime":895.985,"endTime":897.835,"body":"If you're a small company, you"},{"startTime":895.985,"endTime":897.835,"body":"have development manager, right?"},{"startTime":897.975,"endTime":903.155,"body":"Whatever technology solutions that need"},{"startTime":897.975,"endTime":903.155,"body":"to be upgraded, maintained, implemented"},{"startTime":903.305,"endTime":905.485,"body":"that 20 percent services that component."},{"startTime":905.655,"endTime":907.895,"body":"So they need to build things"},{"startTime":905.655,"endTime":907.895,"body":"into the roadmap and they"},{"startTime":907.895,"endTime":909.065,"body":"need to maintain those things."},{"startTime":909.14,"endTime":910.81,"body":"I would say, look, you have some."},{"startTime":910.96,"endTime":912.96,"body":"A bit of product management function."},{"startTime":913.11,"endTime":916.15,"body":"We need to bring you in and you need"},{"startTime":913.11,"endTime":916.15,"body":"to be responsible for maintaining and"},{"startTime":916.16,"endTime":920.77,"body":"curating and refining first of all,"},{"startTime":916.16,"endTime":920.77,"body":"but that 20 percent is going to be"},{"startTime":920.77,"endTime":923.67,"body":"dedicated to whatever you say, let them"},{"startTime":920.77,"endTime":923.67,"body":"work on and figure out how to do it."},{"startTime":923.72,"endTime":927.38,"body":"So the remaining 80 is now owned"},{"startTime":923.72,"endTime":927.38,"body":"by product management to do"},{"startTime":927.38,"endTime":928.67,"body":"the normal feature development."},{"startTime":928.67,"endTime":931.66,"body":"Cause normally when I see this,"},{"startTime":928.67,"endTime":931.66,"body":"it's because the business."},{"startTime":931.81,"endTime":936.34,"body":"Is undisciplined and just wants 110"},{"startTime":931.81,"endTime":936.34,"body":"percent of the velocity dedicated"},{"startTime":936.35,"endTime":937.69,"body":"to new feature development."},{"startTime":937.69,"endTime":941.22,"body":"Bring me new features, bring me"},{"startTime":937.69,"endTime":941.22,"body":"new clients,  spend your nights and"},{"startTime":941.22,"endTime":943.12,"body":"weekends doing upgrade work or whatever."},{"startTime":943.17,"endTime":946.41,"body":"I don't want to hear about it"},{"startTime":943.17,"endTime":946.41,"body":"or, or worse, send all that stuff"},{"startTime":946.41,"endTime":949.46,"body":"over to some kind of architecture"},{"startTime":946.41,"endTime":949.46,"body":"platform infrastructure team."},{"startTime":949.61,"endTime":953.26,"body":"And all they do is this grunt work that"},{"startTime":949.61,"endTime":953.26,"body":"nobody sees in the middle of the night and"},{"startTime":953.57,"endTime":957.35,"body":"think that you can ship off maintaining"},{"startTime":953.57,"endTime":957.35,"body":"our infrastructure to another team."},{"startTime":957.5,"endTime":958.29,"body":"You can't do that."},{"startTime":958.3,"endTime":959.12,"body":"You cannot do that."},{"startTime":959.19,"endTime":961.14,"body":"So sorry, you were, I think"},{"startTime":959.19,"endTime":961.14,"body":"you were about to push back"},{"startTime":961.14,"endTime":962.52,"body":"on No, no, I wasn't going to push back."},{"startTime":962.57,"endTime":966.57,"body":"I was going to say something here"},{"startTime":962.57,"endTime":966.57,"body":"which is, If you have a situation"},{"startTime":966.57,"endTime":970.25,"body":"where you have 500 bugs, clearly"},{"startTime":966.57,"endTime":970.25,"body":"it got that way for a reason."},{"startTime":970.4,"endTime":973.55,"body":"So, do some RCA on that"},{"startTime":970.4,"endTime":973.55,"body":"and figure out why."},{"startTime":973.9,"endTime":978.53,"body":"Now, now, now that you've come up with"},{"startTime":973.9,"endTime":978.53,"body":"your RCA and, and, and it's still, let's"},{"startTime":978.53,"endTime":979.88,"body":"just assume the worst case scenario."},{"startTime":979.94,"endTime":982.47,"body":"You just say, well, because,"},{"startTime":979.94,"endTime":982.47,"body":"well, it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":982.71,"endTime":984.04,"body":"You have to deal with it now."},{"startTime":984.19,"endTime":985.1,"body":"You could."},{"startTime":985.25,"endTime":988.62,"body":"Like you said, I'll allocate"},{"startTime":985.25,"endTime":988.62,"body":"capacity, 20 percent whatever, right?"},{"startTime":988.79,"endTime":990.93,"body":"And just say, go whittle that down."},{"startTime":990.94,"endTime":995.18,"body":"That 500, the backlog of 500,"},{"startTime":990.94,"endTime":995.18,"body":"go whittle that down based on"},{"startTime":995.18,"endTime":998.56,"body":"some kind of prioritization,"},{"startTime":995.18,"endTime":998.56,"body":"based on severity, etc, etc."},{"startTime":998.56,"endTime":1000.66,"body":"Whose claims are loudest,"},{"startTime":998.56,"endTime":1000.66,"body":"you name it, right?"},{"startTime":1000.66,"endTime":1001.31,"body":"Whatever scale."},{"startTime":1001.46,"endTime":1003.57,"body":"But, here's what I want to add to this."},{"startTime":1003.64,"endTime":1008.28,"body":"If you want to be effective at this,"},{"startTime":1003.64,"endTime":1008.28,"body":"not efficient, effective, right?"},{"startTime":1008.43,"endTime":1011.62,"body":"Why not involve your customer"},{"startTime":1008.43,"endTime":1011.62,"body":"in the prioritization exercise?"},{"startTime":1011.68,"endTime":1015.225,"body":"Get them in the room and say, We got"},{"startTime":1011.68,"endTime":1015.225,"body":"500 things that have been reported,"},{"startTime":1015.415,"endTime":1020.575,"body":"some by us internally, some by you,"},{"startTime":1015.415,"endTime":1020.575,"body":"which of these are your top pick a"},{"startTime":1020.575,"endTime":1023.345,"body":"number 20, 50, whatever it is, right?"},{"startTime":1023.645,"endTime":1025.005,"body":"Top 10 percent would be 50."},{"startTime":1025.045,"endTime":1025.455,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1025.685,"endTime":1031.355,"body":"So let's look at these 50 and then focus"},{"startTime":1025.685,"endTime":1031.355,"body":"your effort on those, not the other"},{"startTime":1031.375,"endTime":1034.125,"body":"450, because they're not that important."},{"startTime":1034.135,"endTime":1035.045,"body":"Those that matter."},{"startTime":1035.085,"endTime":1038.025,"body":"I got sidetracked because what I was going"},{"startTime":1035.085,"endTime":1038.025,"body":"to say But the first thing I would try"},{"startTime":1038.025,"endTime":1040.465,"body":"to do is I would get a panel together."},{"startTime":1040.535,"endTime":1040.845,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1040.885,"endTime":1043.695,"body":"If I'm the QA manager, like I"},{"startTime":1040.885,"endTime":1043.695,"body":"just got hired into Brian and"},{"startTime":1043.695,"endTime":1045.005,"body":"Om's software development company."},{"startTime":1045.285,"endTime":1049.055,"body":"Brian and Om are harsh"},{"startTime":1045.285,"endTime":1049.055,"body":"taskmasters and only care about"},{"startTime":1049.065,"endTime":1050.235,"body":"features that they can sell."},{"startTime":1050.235,"endTime":1052.725,"body":"They don't care about fixing things"},{"startTime":1050.235,"endTime":1052.725,"body":"because they plan to sell the"},{"startTime":1052.725,"endTime":1053.885,"body":"company in two and a half years."},{"startTime":1053.895,"endTime":1054.235,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1054.265,"endTime":1056.995,"body":"And they, they don't care if"},{"startTime":1054.265,"endTime":1056.995,"body":"there's a thousand bugs or five"},{"startTime":1056.995,"endTime":1058.205,"body":"hundred or whatever the number is."},{"startTime":1058.425,"endTime":1060.995,"body":"As long as they cash out and"},{"startTime":1058.425,"endTime":1060.995,"body":"bro down at the end of it."},{"startTime":1061.145,"endTime":1065.615,"body":"So, what I would do, as a new QA manager,"},{"startTime":1061.145,"endTime":1065.615,"body":"product as well, I would do the same thing"},{"startTime":1065.615,"endTime":1069.675,"body":"as product, I come in, I sit down with"},{"startTime":1065.615,"endTime":1069.675,"body":"my panel of people, maybe a QA person,"},{"startTime":1069.675,"endTime":1074.34,"body":"product expert, customer support, product"},{"startTime":1069.675,"endTime":1074.34,"body":"manager, whatever basically a nice cross"},{"startTime":1074.34,"endTime":1077.66,"body":"functional team, people that know the"},{"startTime":1074.34,"endTime":1077.66,"body":"product, people that know the customers."},{"startTime":1077.71,"endTime":1078.05,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1078.2,"endTime":1080.73,"body":"And or maybe I would invite"},{"startTime":1078.2,"endTime":1080.73,"body":"a customer to that panel."},{"startTime":1080.77,"endTime":1081.63,"body":"I'm not sure yet."},{"startTime":1081.65,"endTime":1081.95,"body":"I would"},{"startTime":1081.96,"endTime":1082.71,"body":"advocate that"},{"startTime":1082.73,"endTime":1083.71,"body":"if you can do it."},{"startTime":1083.71,"endTime":1084.24,"body":"I'm not sure yet."},{"startTime":1084.39,"endTime":1087.36,"body":"And what I would try to do is I"},{"startTime":1084.39,"endTime":1087.36,"body":"would go through the 500 items."},{"startTime":1087.4,"endTime":1088.32,"body":"I assign some homework."},{"startTime":1088.32,"endTime":1089.36,"body":"I go through the 500 items."},{"startTime":1089.66,"endTime":1091.52,"body":"I try to break them up into categories."},{"startTime":1091.53,"endTime":1091.93,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1092.26,"endTime":1095.18,"body":"I try to break them up into categories"},{"startTime":1092.26,"endTime":1095.18,"body":"because I don't know quite what those"},{"startTime":1095.18,"endTime":1097.765,"body":"categories are because they'd be Kind"},{"startTime":1095.18,"endTime":1097.765,"body":"of dependent on your business, right?"},{"startTime":1097.815,"endTime":1100.855,"body":"You know, maybe, maybe like"},{"startTime":1097.815,"endTime":1100.855,"body":"a production things or user"},{"startTime":1100.855,"endTime":1102.125,"body":"facing things or back end thing."},{"startTime":1102.145,"endTime":1102.515,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1102.525,"endTime":1103.655,"body":"I don't know what those"},{"startTime":1102.525,"endTime":1103.655,"body":"categories would be."},{"startTime":1104.005,"endTime":1108.905,"body":"So I'd ask the team, Hey, 500 items, try"},{"startTime":1104.005,"endTime":1108.905,"body":"to break them down, try to break them"},{"startTime":1108.905,"endTime":1112.925,"body":"down into categories, try to group them,"},{"startTime":1108.905,"endTime":1112.925,"body":"and then give me a recommendation of"},{"startTime":1112.925,"endTime":1115.185,"body":"which category we should attack first."},{"startTime":1115.335,"endTime":1115.865,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1116.015,"endTime":1117.955,"body":"And this is assuming"},{"startTime":1116.015,"endTime":1117.955,"body":"that I also don't have."},{"startTime":1118.105,"endTime":1123.105,"body":"Basic, like if I have in other places"},{"startTime":1118.105,"endTime":1123.105,"body":"that I've worked the QA team and"},{"startTime":1123.105,"endTime":1126.315,"body":"the development team together, along"},{"startTime":1123.105,"endTime":1126.315,"body":"with product three, you got three"},{"startTime":1126.315,"endTime":1132.065,"body":"teams, they will assign a severity,"},{"startTime":1126.315,"endTime":1132.065,"body":"priority, criticality, frequency,"},{"startTime":1132.385,"endTime":1135.49,"body":"the ability to replicate, they'll"},{"startTime":1132.385,"endTime":1135.49,"body":"assign those type of things that,"},{"startTime":1135.49,"endTime":1137.11,"body":"so it'd be nice to have a matrix."},{"startTime":1137.26,"endTime":1140.82,"body":"Of those numbers for each bug, but"},{"startTime":1137.26,"endTime":1140.82,"body":"sometimes that's not possible because"},{"startTime":1140.82,"endTime":1145.22,"body":"it requires you to actually take time to"},{"startTime":1140.82,"endTime":1145.22,"body":"replicate the bug, assuming you can and"},{"startTime":1145.22,"endTime":1147.2,"body":"you have 500 to do it and you have 500."},{"startTime":1147.2,"endTime":1151.69,"body":"So maybe you're not willing to spend that"},{"startTime":1147.2,"endTime":1151.69,"body":"amount of BTUs to actually get this data."},{"startTime":1151.94,"endTime":1153.28,"body":"So, so that's fine."},{"startTime":1153.28,"endTime":1153.72,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1153.74,"endTime":1158.39,"body":"You don't have to do that, but at a"},{"startTime":1153.74,"endTime":1158.39,"body":"minimum, let's group them and let's set,"},{"startTime":1158.43,"endTime":1161.23,"body":"let's set in what we think is a severity."},{"startTime":1161.38,"endTime":1163.81,"body":"That maybe we just aggregate"},{"startTime":1161.38,"endTime":1163.81,"body":"all these numbers together"},{"startTime":1163.83,"endTime":1165.63,"body":"into just one number of things."},{"startTime":1165.78,"endTime":1168.99,"body":"How severe do you think this bug is?"},{"startTime":1169.08,"endTime":1169.29,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1169.59,"endTime":1170.7,"body":"Listen, I, I, I agree."},{"startTime":1170.7,"endTime":1172.74,"body":"I wanna stop you a little"},{"startTime":1170.7,"endTime":1172.74,"body":"bit here for a second."},{"startTime":1172.74,"endTime":1174.21,"body":"Grouping and severity is good."},{"startTime":1174.24,"endTime":1175.11,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1175.11,"endTime":1178.86,"body":"However, here, here's what I want"},{"startTime":1175.11,"endTime":1178.86,"body":"to like gently lean against mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1179.1,"endTime":1183.721,"body":". So not really pushing back, but maybe"},{"startTime":1179.1,"endTime":1183.721,"body":"a little we assign the severity."},{"startTime":1183.811,"endTime":1184.551,"body":"Who's we?"},{"startTime":1184.641,"endTime":1184.911,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1184.911,"endTime":1186.561,"body":"So you mentioned all"},{"startTime":1184.911,"endTime":1186.561,"body":"these people on the panel."},{"startTime":1186.561,"endTime":1186.761,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1186.911,"endTime":1191.081,"body":"If the customer is optional there,"},{"startTime":1186.911,"endTime":1191.081,"body":"you've missed the mark because we"},{"startTime":1191.081,"endTime":1195.031,"body":"could say this is severe because"},{"startTime":1191.081,"endTime":1195.031,"body":"we can fix it quickly, right?"},{"startTime":1195.221,"endTime":1200.311,"body":"But a customer is the only person,"},{"startTime":1195.221,"endTime":1200.311,"body":"the only persona who can decide how,"},{"startTime":1200.541,"endTime":1202.171,"body":"what the impact is of this to them."},{"startTime":1202.341,"endTime":1207.146,"body":"So bring them in and say, how what's"},{"startTime":1202.341,"endTime":1207.146,"body":"the severity level for you on this?"},{"startTime":1207.446,"endTime":1211.616,"body":"If you do that and then you move on"},{"startTime":1207.446,"endTime":1211.616,"body":"to the other things, I think you have"},{"startTime":1211.616,"endTime":1215.276,"body":"a much better chance of satisfying"},{"startTime":1211.616,"endTime":1215.276,"body":"that customer for whom it matters."},{"startTime":1215.426,"endTime":1216.036,"body":"Just saying."},{"startTime":1216.246,"endTime":1218.616,"body":"I haven't seen this very"},{"startTime":1216.246,"endTime":1218.616,"body":"often I have to admit."},{"startTime":1218.766,"endTime":1222.986,"body":"I've seen it one time in a small"},{"startTime":1218.766,"endTime":1222.986,"body":"very, very small, like a 50"},{"startTime":1222.986,"endTime":1227.386,"body":"person entrepreneurial startup"},{"startTime":1222.986,"endTime":1227.386,"body":"that really engaged the customer"},{"startTime":1227.416,"endTime":1230.986,"body":"throughout, not at the beginning,"},{"startTime":1227.416,"endTime":1230.986,"body":"at the end, throughout, right?"},{"startTime":1231.186,"endTime":1234.836,"body":"So every sprint, the customer was"},{"startTime":1231.186,"endTime":1234.836,"body":"in there looking at everything."},{"startTime":1234.986,"endTime":1239.476,"body":"In that scenario we never built up a"},{"startTime":1234.986,"endTime":1239.476,"body":"huge backlog of bugs because customers"},{"startTime":1239.476,"endTime":1244.396,"body":"will tell you this is burning, burning,"},{"startTime":1239.476,"endTime":1244.396,"body":"itching, irritable and barely feel it."},{"startTime":1244.576,"endTime":1247.756,"body":"Those were the four categories"},{"startTime":1244.576,"endTime":1247.756,"body":"and burning and itching."},{"startTime":1247.756,"endTime":1249.386,"body":"We focused on in that order, right?"},{"startTime":1249.396,"endTime":1250.356,"body":"Burning got to fix it."},{"startTime":1250.506,"endTime":1254.351,"body":"Itching will fix it next sprint or"},{"startTime":1250.506,"endTime":1254.351,"body":"the sprint after everything else is."},{"startTime":1254.691,"endTime":1255.001,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1255.001,"endTime":1258.061,"body":"We'll just talk about it later"},{"startTime":1255.001,"endTime":1258.061,"body":"because if it's no longer an issue,"},{"startTime":1258.061,"endTime":1259.591,"body":"we'll just drop it off the list."},{"startTime":1259.861,"endTime":1262.671,"body":"Or if it becomes burning"},{"startTime":1259.861,"endTime":1262.671,"body":"fine, we'll trade it that way."},{"startTime":1263.001,"endTime":1264.861,"body":"So I just wanted to add that in there."},{"startTime":1264.936,"endTime":1268.076,"body":"We'll talk through the bugs and we'll"},{"startTime":1264.936,"endTime":1268.076,"body":"come up with an order Basically, we're"},{"startTime":1268.076,"endTime":1270.526,"body":"doing all this so we can come up with"},{"startTime":1268.076,"endTime":1270.526,"body":"the order of that's exactly it should"},{"startTime":1270.536,"endTime":1274.366,"body":"be rank ordering things And maybe"},{"startTime":1270.536,"endTime":1274.366,"body":"you just maybe things that you know,"},{"startTime":1274.386,"endTime":1277.496,"body":"whatever if you do like priority, let's"},{"startTime":1274.386,"endTime":1277.496,"body":"pretend for a second where you have"},{"startTime":1277.506,"endTime":1278.646,"body":"priority one, two, and three, right?"},{"startTime":1278.646,"endTime":1281.576,"body":"Well, one is like the most"},{"startTime":1278.646,"endTime":1281.576,"body":"burning stuff, and three is like,"},{"startTime":1281.616,"endTime":1282.996,"body":"ah, we haven't really seen it."},{"startTime":1282.996,"endTime":1284.746,"body":"It got reported one time,"},{"startTime":1282.996,"endTime":1284.746,"body":"we never saw it again."},{"startTime":1285.026,"endTime":1287.316,"body":"Like, maybe you just cut"},{"startTime":1285.026,"endTime":1287.316,"body":"the priority three stuff."},{"startTime":1287.621,"endTime":1290.911,"body":"And just close immediately"},{"startTime":1287.621,"endTime":1290.911,"body":"close like 150 items sure."},{"startTime":1291.111,"endTime":1291.381,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1291.521,"endTime":1294.011,"body":"You're like, Hey, if we see him"},{"startTime":1291.521,"endTime":1294.011,"body":"again, we'll, we'll note them."},{"startTime":1294.141,"endTime":1294.841,"body":"We'll reopen them."},{"startTime":1294.841,"endTime":1297.051,"body":"And we'll we'll, we'll have"},{"startTime":1294.841,"endTime":1297.051,"body":"new evidence or whatever."},{"startTime":1297.271,"endTime":1298.021,"body":"They're really old."},{"startTime":1298.171,"endTime":1304.071,"body":"Like you know when I was early in my QA"},{"startTime":1298.171,"endTime":1304.071,"body":"career, I, I hated to close anything."},{"startTime":1304.071,"endTime":1304.681,"body":"He did that."},{"startTime":1304.811,"endTime":1305.061,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1305.181,"endTime":1307.211,"body":"You're saying that, well,"},{"startTime":1305.181,"endTime":1307.211,"body":"we only saw it once."},{"startTime":1307.361,"endTime":1310.241,"body":"There's a good chance it's a real"},{"startTime":1307.361,"endTime":1310.241,"body":"item, but it was only so I was"},{"startTime":1310.241,"endTime":1314.151,"body":"only seen once and and also like"},{"startTime":1310.241,"endTime":1314.151,"body":"the Differentiation between was"},{"startTime":1314.151,"endTime":1315.591,"body":"it seen by a customer was it seen?"},{"startTime":1315.761,"endTime":1319.751,"body":"Oh, that's huge and they would say well"},{"startTime":1315.761,"endTime":1319.751,"body":"It was only seen internally and we don't"},{"startTime":1319.751,"endTime":1322.941,"body":"can't figure out how to replicate it"},{"startTime":1319.751,"endTime":1322.941,"body":"again Just close it and that would bug"},{"startTime":1322.941,"endTime":1327.851,"body":"me a lot Here I am in retrospect like"},{"startTime":1322.941,"endTime":1327.851,"body":"almost 20 years later and and I completely"},{"startTime":1327.851,"endTime":1333.181,"body":"understand Yeah, we only saw it once and"},{"startTime":1327.851,"endTime":1333.181,"body":"and we did not do Any diligence at the"},{"startTime":1333.181,"endTime":1337.591,"body":"time that we saw it once right to figure"},{"startTime":1333.181,"endTime":1337.591,"body":"out Why it happened exactly what happened."},{"startTime":1337.831,"endTime":1341.211,"body":"We didn't stop and say hey, I have"},{"startTime":1337.831,"endTime":1341.211,"body":"a problem I don't know what I just"},{"startTime":1341.211,"endTime":1344.391,"body":"did because someone helped me and"},{"startTime":1341.211,"endTime":1344.391,"body":"put some brainpower on it there,"},{"startTime":1344.401,"endTime":1347.721,"body":"you know spend 45 minutes together,"},{"startTime":1344.401,"endTime":1347.721,"body":"sitting together to figure it out."},{"startTime":1348.001,"endTime":1349.571,"body":"And now we don't know how we did."},{"startTime":1349.861,"endTime":1349.951,"body":"Here,"},{"startTime":1349.951,"endTime":1350.241,"body":"just close it."},{"startTime":1350.441,"endTime":1352.571,"body":"So, a quick anecdote here"},{"startTime":1350.441,"endTime":1352.571,"body":"for like five seconds."},{"startTime":1352.571,"endTime":1357.181,"body":"I, I worked in a, in a client, like"},{"startTime":1352.571,"endTime":1357.181,"body":"a, a, a two tier, three tier, maybe,"},{"startTime":1357.181,"endTime":1361.041,"body":"three tier architecture environment"},{"startTime":1357.181,"endTime":1361.041,"body":"for a few years, some time ago."},{"startTime":1361.191,"endTime":1364.311,"body":"So, you had the you, you had the database,"},{"startTime":1361.191,"endTime":1364.311,"body":"and you had the middleware, and you"},{"startTime":1364.311,"endTime":1366.091,"body":"had the, the front end, the GUI layer."},{"startTime":1366.091,"endTime":1371.081,"body":"And, often, often, things will be reported"},{"startTime":1366.091,"endTime":1371.081,"body":"that could not be replicated, right?"},{"startTime":1371.351,"endTime":1373.171,"body":"And then you ask the person reporting."},{"startTime":1373.321,"endTime":1374.351,"body":"What happened after that?"},{"startTime":1374.371,"endTime":1376.161,"body":"And they say, well, I"},{"startTime":1374.371,"endTime":1376.161,"body":"just rebooted my machine."},{"startTime":1376.221,"endTime":1376.931,"body":"And then what happened?"},{"startTime":1377.001,"endTime":1377.661,"body":"I tried it again."},{"startTime":1377.661,"endTime":1378.061,"body":"It worked."},{"startTime":1378.211,"endTime":1382.221,"body":"Those are classic for, we don't"},{"startTime":1378.211,"endTime":1382.221,"body":"really know, but it's not worth the"},{"startTime":1382.221,"endTime":1384.451,"body":"cycles to spend on figuring that out."},{"startTime":1384.461,"endTime":1385.351,"body":"So we just burn it."},{"startTime":1385.431,"endTime":1387.091,"body":"We just say, well, just archive it."},{"startTime":1387.241,"endTime":1390.041,"body":"Now, if you're really"},{"startTime":1387.241,"endTime":1390.041,"body":"paranoid, don't delete them."},{"startTime":1390.141,"endTime":1390.941,"body":"You can archive them."},{"startTime":1390.941,"endTime":1391.491,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1391.591,"endTime":1391.891,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1392.081,"endTime":1395.641,"body":"And if they happen again, you can meter"},{"startTime":1392.081,"endTime":1395.641,"body":"against that and say, well, it happened."},{"startTime":1395.976,"endTime":1399.656,"body":"One more time two years later,"},{"startTime":1395.976,"endTime":1399.656,"body":"whatever it is, but if you do this"},{"startTime":1399.706,"endTime":1402.766,"body":"an example of 500 and then you"},{"startTime":1399.706,"endTime":1402.766,"body":"mentioned 150 could be burned."},{"startTime":1402.766,"endTime":1403.706,"body":"So that's 350."},{"startTime":1403.716,"endTime":1407.596,"body":"You've already made a reduction and"},{"startTime":1403.716,"endTime":1407.596,"body":"you just rinse and repeat on the"},{"startTime":1407.656,"endTime":1411.286,"body":"priority and severity plus frequency."},{"startTime":1411.296,"endTime":1413.036,"body":"So there's a little"},{"startTime":1411.296,"endTime":1413.036,"body":"bit of that too, right?"},{"startTime":1413.056,"endTime":1414.506,"body":"How often does it happen?"},{"startTime":1414.506,"endTime":1417.926,"body":"In my scenario, 300 people."},{"startTime":1418.216,"endTime":1420.276,"body":"If it's, if it's a real issue."},{"startTime":1420.411,"endTime":1422.001,"body":"And it's a repeatability issue."},{"startTime":1422.021,"endTime":1424.521,"body":"Like people are going to use the same"},{"startTime":1422.021,"endTime":1424.521,"body":"thing over and over and over again."},{"startTime":1424.551,"endTime":1426.321,"body":"People are calling in and taking orders."},{"startTime":1426.661,"endTime":1427.941,"body":"It's going to happen again."},{"startTime":1428.001,"endTime":1429.601,"body":"So I didn't want to delete them."},{"startTime":1429.931,"endTime":1430.911,"body":"So I put them away."},{"startTime":1431.131,"endTime":1431.481,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1431.511,"endTime":1435.031,"body":"And I can tell you one out"},{"startTime":1431.511,"endTime":1435.031,"body":"of 10, maybe one out of 50."},{"startTime":1435.181,"endTime":1435.561,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1435.581,"endTime":1438.541,"body":"I'm guessing here because it"},{"startTime":1435.581,"endTime":1438.541,"body":"was a while ago, would recur."},{"startTime":1438.721,"endTime":1441.481,"body":"And when they recur, you say,"},{"startTime":1438.721,"endTime":1441.481,"body":"Oh, it happened six months ago"},{"startTime":1441.481,"endTime":1442.781,"body":"or a month ago or whenever."},{"startTime":1442.931,"endTime":1447.491,"body":"So then I go back to my notes that"},{"startTime":1442.931,"endTime":1447.491,"body":"were made in the system and say, when"},{"startTime":1447.491,"endTime":1449.661,"body":"it happened, what was the agent doing?"},{"startTime":1449.671,"endTime":1450.991,"body":"The person answering the phone."},{"startTime":1451.141,"endTime":1452.791,"body":"You know, what product were they selling?"},{"startTime":1452.821,"endTime":1454.291,"body":"Oh, it's the same product as this one."},{"startTime":1454.291,"endTime":1456.871,"body":"Maybe the issue is how that"},{"startTime":1454.291,"endTime":1456.871,"body":"product is configured because"},{"startTime":1456.871,"endTime":1457.811,"body":"no other product has the same."},{"startTime":1458.101,"endTime":1461.916,"body":"So you're trying to like home"},{"startTime":1458.101,"endTime":1461.916,"body":"in on the the RCA analysis is"},{"startTime":1461.946,"endTime":1462.996,"body":"basically what's happening here."},{"startTime":1463.296,"endTime":1464.716,"body":"But on a need basis."},{"startTime":1464.726,"endTime":1468.476,"body":"So if it doesn't happen, you don't"},{"startTime":1464.726,"endTime":1468.476,"body":"have to go in cycles on that."},{"startTime":1468.601,"endTime":1471.551,"body":"But you know, like to pivot"},{"startTime":1468.601,"endTime":1471.551,"body":"us away from this topic"},{"startTime":1471.821,"endTime":1475.931,"body":"I think if you're in this situation where"},{"startTime":1471.821,"endTime":1475.931,"body":"you have 500 bugs in your backlog, either."},{"startTime":1475.931,"endTime":1479.231,"body":"You don't understand what the"},{"startTime":1475.931,"endTime":1479.231,"body":"definition of done is or your"},{"startTime":1479.231,"endTime":1480.951,"body":"definition of done is inadequate"},{"startTime":1481.101,"endTime":1484.411,"body":"or you don't have a product person"},{"startTime":1481.101,"endTime":1484.411,"body":"who can triage all these things."},{"startTime":1484.561,"endTime":1488.281,"body":"I was trying to stick with the,"},{"startTime":1484.561,"endTime":1488.281,"body":"like the, the triaging kind"},{"startTime":1488.281,"endTime":1489.511,"body":"of goes with prioritization."},{"startTime":1489.521,"endTime":1490.161,"body":"Yeah, it does."},{"startTime":1490.171,"endTime":1493.091,"body":"Probably, probably should have included"},{"startTime":1490.171,"endTime":1493.091,"body":"it with our discussion of prioritization."},{"startTime":1493.241,"endTime":1495.831,"body":"But what I'm saying is like what"},{"startTime":1493.241,"endTime":1495.831,"body":"I think of a normal definition of"},{"startTime":1495.831,"endTime":1497.861,"body":"done Like basic stuff like it Sure."},{"startTime":1497.861,"endTime":1502.571,"body":"It has to have unit tests, it has to"},{"startTime":1497.861,"endTime":1502.571,"body":"it has to have automation baked in."},{"startTime":1502.571,"endTime":1504.671,"body":"It has to go through passive"},{"startTime":1502.571,"endTime":1504.671,"body":"pressure and all of that."},{"startTime":1504.671,"endTime":1504.882,"body":"Yeah, yeah,"},{"startTime":1504.887,"endTime":1505.121,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1505.126,"endTime":1506.111,"body":"Security and"},{"startTime":1506.111,"endTime":1506.591,"body":"so forth."},{"startTime":1506.591,"endTime":1507.191,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1507.191,"endTime":1510.851,"body":"The ba the, the basics of an a definite,"},{"startTime":1507.191,"endTime":1510.851,"body":"like we have to peer on things."},{"startTime":1510.851,"endTime":1514.791,"body":"It needs X number of code reviews,"},{"startTime":1510.851,"endTime":1514.791,"body":"when I think of, of a culture where"},{"startTime":1514.791,"endTime":1517.161,"body":"this has gotten so out of hand"},{"startTime":1514.791,"endTime":1517.161,"body":"where you have hundreds of them."},{"startTime":1517.221,"endTime":1517.461,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1517.611,"endTime":1521.431,"body":"I expect that you just don't, you, all"},{"startTime":1517.611,"endTime":1521.431,"body":"the development standards we were talking"},{"startTime":1521.431,"endTime":1524.821,"body":"about before, internal development"},{"startTime":1521.431,"endTime":1524.821,"body":"standards, coding standards, maybe on the"},{"startTime":1524.961,"endTime":1526.061,"body":"previous podcast where you talked about."},{"startTime":1526.061,"endTime":1527.141,"body":"It was on the previous one, yeah."},{"startTime":1527.171,"endTime":1529.681,"body":"Yeah, where we talked about like,"},{"startTime":1527.171,"endTime":1529.681,"body":"well, what are your standards?"},{"startTime":1529.861,"endTime":1533.051,"body":"Where you sit together and you write"},{"startTime":1529.861,"endTime":1533.051,"body":"negative tests first and then your"},{"startTime":1533.081,"endTime":1534.111,"body":"code emerges through the negative test."},{"startTime":1534.111,"endTime":1535.501,"body":"You're not doing any of"},{"startTime":1534.111,"endTime":1535.501,"body":"that when you have 500."},{"startTime":1535.511,"endTime":1537.401,"body":"Yeah, you're not doing any of that."},{"startTime":1537.621,"endTime":1540.891,"body":"And also, it's very difficult to have"},{"startTime":1537.621,"endTime":1540.891,"body":"a definition done when some of your"},{"startTime":1540.901,"endTime":1544.781,"body":"teams Are nearshore onshore and some of"},{"startTime":1540.901,"endTime":1544.781,"body":"your teams are offshore and they don't"},{"startTime":1544.791,"endTime":1547.421,"body":"necessarily communicate with each other,"},{"startTime":1544.791,"endTime":1547.421,"body":"but they should, but the definition"},{"startTime":1547.421,"endTime":1551.291,"body":"done should be flat across all of the"},{"startTime":1547.421,"endTime":1551.291,"body":"teams, which is where I think a lot of"},{"startTime":1551.311,"endTime":1554.451,"body":"people get in trouble because they don't"},{"startTime":1551.311,"endTime":1554.451,"body":"realize, well, my team has a definition"},{"startTime":1554.451,"endTime":1557.031,"body":"of done and it's different from that"},{"startTime":1554.451,"endTime":1557.031,"body":"team's definition of done and it's"},{"startTime":1557.031,"endTime":1560.671,"body":"different that that's what they don't"},{"startTime":1557.031,"endTime":1560.671,"body":"realize the definition of done should"},{"startTime":1560.671,"endTime":1565.101,"body":"be flat so that when your team says it's"},{"startTime":1560.671,"endTime":1565.101,"body":"done, that means the automation is done."},{"startTime":1565.241,"endTime":1565.951,"body":"The testing is done."},{"startTime":1565.951,"endTime":1566.026,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1566.166,"endTime":1567.326,"body":"It went to every environment."},{"startTime":1567.456,"endTime":1568.116,"body":"It, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1568.276,"endTime":1569.786,"body":"We, we peered on everything."},{"startTime":1569.846,"endTime":1571.706,"body":"Our QA people were involved from day one."},{"startTime":1571.876,"endTime":1574.786,"body":"Our product people are following"},{"startTime":1571.876,"endTime":1574.786,"body":"a million other things that"},{"startTime":1574.816,"endTime":1576.396,"body":"potentially could be in the DoD."},{"startTime":1576.481,"endTime":1578.511,"body":"You don't even have a definition."},{"startTime":1578.661,"endTime":1579.621,"body":"Well, yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1579.631,"endTime":1583.671,"body":"First of all if you have multiple teams,"},{"startTime":1579.631,"endTime":1583.671,"body":"which is the scenario you're talking"},{"startTime":1583.671,"endTime":1587.051,"body":"about, and if you have a program, the"},{"startTime":1583.671,"endTime":1587.051,"body":"scenario I've been in for a while now."},{"startTime":1587.201,"endTime":1592.271,"body":"The teams have typically they believe"},{"startTime":1587.201,"endTime":1592.271,"body":"they have a definition of done because"},{"startTime":1592.281,"endTime":1596.881,"body":"every scrum master says, I know what I"},{"startTime":1592.281,"endTime":1596.881,"body":"need to do and their checklist driven."},{"startTime":1597.221,"endTime":1600.081,"body":"So yeah, we need a definition of"},{"startTime":1597.221,"endTime":1600.081,"body":"done and they get people together"},{"startTime":1600.081,"endTime":1602.771,"body":"and do a little miro mural"},{"startTime":1600.081,"endTime":1602.771,"body":"exercise and they come up with it."},{"startTime":1602.921,"endTime":1604.311,"body":"And that's when I come in."},{"startTime":1604.311,"endTime":1605.721,"body":"Somebody yours is there."},{"startTime":1605.721,"endTime":1606.461,"body":"Yours is there."},{"startTime":1606.711,"endTime":1607.381,"body":"What about our?"},{"startTime":1607.461,"endTime":1610.901,"body":"Because you can't deliver"},{"startTime":1607.461,"endTime":1610.901,"body":"anything by a single team."},{"startTime":1610.921,"endTime":1613.001,"body":"It's got to be a cohesive effort."},{"startTime":1613.001,"endTime":1613.221,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1613.271,"endTime":1616.511,"body":"So then a program level"},{"startTime":1613.271,"endTime":1616.511,"body":"definition of done is created."},{"startTime":1616.851,"endTime":1620.811,"body":"So I think where you are going with"},{"startTime":1616.851,"endTime":1620.811,"body":"that is it's okay if the team has"},{"startTime":1620.961,"endTime":1626.221,"body":"a nuanced situation where they have"},{"startTime":1620.961,"endTime":1626.221,"body":"some small things that differ from"},{"startTime":1626.291,"endTime":1630.501,"body":"other teams that contribute to the"},{"startTime":1626.291,"endTime":1630.501,"body":"program level definition of done."},{"startTime":1630.651,"endTime":1632.661,"body":"But I want to go back for a second here."},{"startTime":1632.811,"endTime":1636.881,"body":"When the customer sees something, it meets"},{"startTime":1632.811,"endTime":1636.881,"body":"the program level definition of done."},{"startTime":1636.961,"endTime":1639.126,"body":"Meaning everybody's done their best."},{"startTime":1639.276,"endTime":1643.156,"body":"Everybody's met everything they need"},{"startTime":1639.276,"endTime":1643.156,"body":"to do, including people like DevOps."},{"startTime":1643.176,"endTime":1646.176,"body":"All these people, if you have those, if"},{"startTime":1643.176,"endTime":1646.176,"body":"you don't have them on your team, you have"},{"startTime":1646.176,"endTime":1648.086,"body":"a separate team for DevOps, for example."},{"startTime":1648.436,"endTime":1652.266,"body":"All of those people have a DoD"},{"startTime":1648.436,"endTime":1652.266,"body":"that combines up and meets up the"},{"startTime":1652.266,"endTime":1654.716,"body":"definition of done for the program."},{"startTime":1655.026,"endTime":1658.566,"body":"The team level is simply another"},{"startTime":1655.026,"endTime":1658.566,"body":"ingredient in the recipe."},{"startTime":1658.576,"endTime":1661.426,"body":"It isn't a recipe by itself, right?"},{"startTime":1661.626,"endTime":1665.716,"body":"So where the teams falter is when"},{"startTime":1661.626,"endTime":1665.716,"body":"they say, well, we've met our DoD."},{"startTime":1665.866,"endTime":1666.946,"body":"And we're done."},{"startTime":1667.296,"endTime":1668.576,"body":"You're not done."},{"startTime":1668.696,"endTime":1669.206,"body":"Done."},{"startTime":1669.296,"endTime":1669.796,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1670.106,"endTime":1672.826,"body":"I hate to use that term too,"},{"startTime":1670.106,"endTime":1672.826,"body":"because it's a cliche these days."},{"startTime":1672.856,"endTime":1673.106,"body":"Done."},{"startTime":1673.106,"endTime":1673.336,"body":"Done."},{"startTime":1673.586,"endTime":1677.056,"body":"But yeah, so I always, I always"},{"startTime":1673.586,"endTime":1677.056,"body":"coach the teams to say, well, you"},{"startTime":1677.056,"endTime":1680.556,"body":"might be done, but is the customer"},{"startTime":1677.056,"endTime":1680.556,"body":"happy with what you've done?"},{"startTime":1680.766,"endTime":1681.476,"body":"What's left?"},{"startTime":1681.826,"endTime":1682.996,"body":"Let's talk about what's left."},{"startTime":1683.336,"endTime":1684.416,"body":"And they go, well, it's them."},{"startTime":1684.686,"endTime":1685.636,"body":"No, there is no them."},{"startTime":1685.786,"endTime":1686.886,"body":"It's us, right?"},{"startTime":1687.036,"endTime":1692.706,"body":"And so if you're a coach, if you're"},{"startTime":1687.036,"endTime":1692.706,"body":"anybody and anybody on your teams say us"},{"startTime":1692.706,"endTime":1697.706,"body":"and them, they say the business changed"},{"startTime":1692.706,"endTime":1697.706,"body":"their mind or the customer, it's them."},{"startTime":1697.856,"endTime":1700.786,"body":"Focus them on the fact"},{"startTime":1697.856,"endTime":1700.786,"body":"that there is no them."},{"startTime":1700.866,"endTime":1702.796,"body":"This is us, including the customer."},{"startTime":1702.986,"endTime":1706.566,"body":"I know it's hard because everybody"},{"startTime":1702.986,"endTime":1706.566,"body":"says it's us and the customer."},{"startTime":1706.796,"endTime":1707.106,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1707.256,"endTime":1712.506,"body":"It's us and only us because customers"},{"startTime":1707.256,"endTime":1712.506,"body":"are part of you and if they're not then"},{"startTime":1712.506,"endTime":1714.396,"body":"you're throwing things at them, right?"},{"startTime":1714.426,"endTime":1716.146,"body":"And sometimes they don't land."},{"startTime":1716.446,"endTime":1719.436,"body":"You're saying program definition"},{"startTime":1716.446,"endTime":1719.436,"body":"of done like in my head."},{"startTime":1719.456,"endTime":1723.546,"body":"I'm I'm interpreting it again I'm taking"},{"startTime":1719.456,"endTime":1723.546,"body":"the word program out of it to interpret"},{"startTime":1723.546,"endTime":1729.136,"body":"it as our death like an individual"},{"startTime":1723.546,"endTime":1729.136,"body":"team that's plugged in To the product"},{"startTime":1729.136,"endTime":1732.746,"body":"that all the rest of the teams are"},{"startTime":1729.136,"endTime":1732.746,"body":"working on can have a more restrictive"},{"startTime":1732.956,"endTime":1734.296,"body":"definition They can add things."},{"startTime":1734.306,"endTime":1735.056,"body":"Here's what i'm trying to say."},{"startTime":1735.226,"endTime":1739.036,"body":"They can add things to the definition of"},{"startTime":1735.226,"endTime":1739.036,"body":"done In addition to what they're doing"},{"startTime":1739.276,"endTime":1740.476,"body":"that all the rest of the teams agree with."},{"startTime":1740.626,"endTime":1742.156,"body":"But it can't be less."},{"startTime":1742.366,"endTime":1744.516,"body":"They can't decide like, oh,"},{"startTime":1742.366,"endTime":1744.516,"body":"we're not going to do automation."},{"startTime":1744.516,"endTime":1744.936,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1745.056,"endTime":1745.546,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1745.696,"endTime":1746.836,"body":"It has to be additive."},{"startTime":1746.986,"endTime":1747.646,"body":"Absolutely correct."},{"startTime":1747.656,"endTime":1750.516,"body":"So just take a metaphor"},{"startTime":1747.656,"endTime":1750.516,"body":"like a car manufacturing."},{"startTime":1750.526,"endTime":1751.706,"body":"Just because I like that one."},{"startTime":1751.876,"endTime":1754.156,"body":"Or you could take the"},{"startTime":1751.876,"endTime":1754.156,"body":"restaurant metaphor if you want."},{"startTime":1754.236,"endTime":1755.976,"body":"The restaurant one, I"},{"startTime":1754.236,"endTime":1755.976,"body":"think it was a cleaner."},{"startTime":1756.036,"endTime":1756.986,"body":"That's a clean example."},{"startTime":1756.986,"endTime":1757.696,"body":"Why don't you, why don't"},{"startTime":1757.696,"endTime":1758.466,"body":"you tease that one out?"},{"startTime":1758.466,"endTime":1761.796,"body":"You can say,  If you want pasta with a"},{"startTime":1758.466,"endTime":1761.796,"body":"bread sauce and a breadstick on the side."},{"startTime":1761.806,"endTime":1762.326,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":1762.396,"endTime":1767.496,"body":"Every meal absolutely will have"},{"startTime":1762.396,"endTime":1767.496,"body":"to have pasta with red sauce"},{"startTime":1767.496,"endTime":1768.156,"body":"and a breadstick on the side."},{"startTime":1768.416,"endTime":1771.586,"body":"But some, some dishes I might bring"},{"startTime":1768.416,"endTime":1771.586,"body":"you some parmesan cheese on top."},{"startTime":1771.586,"endTime":1772.236,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":1772.246,"endTime":1774.876,"body":"Some dishes I might bring you some"},{"startTime":1772.246,"endTime":1774.876,"body":"fresh you know, seasoning on top."},{"startTime":1774.926,"endTime":1779.456,"body":"It's an extra thing our team does"},{"startTime":1774.926,"endTime":1779.456,"body":"that we think accentuates the product."},{"startTime":1779.466,"endTime":1779.996,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1780.006,"endTime":1780.706,"body":"That we bring to you."},{"startTime":1780.926,"endTime":1781.236,"body":"But."},{"startTime":1781.386,"endTime":1785.636,"body":"But we've all agreed like it's definitely"},{"startTime":1781.386,"endTime":1785.636,"body":"gonna have pasta a certain amount."},{"startTime":1785.726,"endTime":1786.136,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1786.176,"endTime":1788.946,"body":"It's definitely gonna have bread sauce"},{"startTime":1786.176,"endTime":1788.946,"body":"a certain amount That's made a certain"},{"startTime":1788.946,"endTime":1791.866,"body":"way and it's definitely gonna have"},{"startTime":1788.946,"endTime":1791.866,"body":"a bread stick Absolutely every time"},{"startTime":1792.016,"endTime":1795.656,"body":"We've all agreed that all of I guess"},{"startTime":1792.016,"endTime":1795.656,"body":"our restaurant only sells one thing."},{"startTime":1795.706,"endTime":1799.166,"body":"Well, we'll go to Olive Garden, I"},{"startTime":1795.706,"endTime":1799.166,"body":"guess, but no, seriously, you're right."},{"startTime":1799.166,"endTime":1799.836,"body":"You're absolutely right."},{"startTime":1800.036,"endTime":1802.526,"body":"Well, you can't, you can't you can't"},{"startTime":1800.036,"endTime":1802.526,"body":"just decide, well, I don't want to"},{"startTime":1802.626,"endTime":1804.096,"body":"deal with red sauce for this sprint."},{"startTime":1804.116,"endTime":1804.186,"body":"You cannot."},{"startTime":1804.186,"endTime":1805.116,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1805.366,"endTime":1805.876,"body":"You cannot do that."},{"startTime":1805.876,"endTime":1807.896,"body":"I'll send you the pasta"},{"startTime":1805.876,"endTime":1807.896,"body":"out to the table first."},{"startTime":1808.046,"endTime":1809.736,"body":"And then in 10 minutes,"},{"startTime":1808.046,"endTime":1809.736,"body":"I'll send the red sauce."},{"startTime":1809.746,"endTime":1810.246,"body":"Oh, great."},{"startTime":1810.256,"endTime":1810.486,"body":"When the"},{"startTime":1810.856,"endTime":1812.146,"body":"pasta's cold and yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1812.176,"endTime":1813.526,"body":"Now I can't eat the pasta at all."},{"startTime":1813.676,"endTime":1817.356,"body":"Somewhere along the lines you decide like"},{"startTime":1813.676,"endTime":1817.356,"body":"The customer ordered pasta and red sauce."},{"startTime":1817.496,"endTime":1821.216,"body":"I'm gonna give him a bowl of red sauce"},{"startTime":1817.496,"endTime":1821.216,"body":"and They can wait for the bus and"},{"startTime":1821.216,"endTime":1822.626,"body":"somebody to the store to get pasta."},{"startTime":1822.716,"endTime":1824.546,"body":"No, you you should have a definition done."},{"startTime":1824.596,"endTime":1827.696,"body":"Yeah, it should be shared across all"},{"startTime":1824.596,"endTime":1827.696,"body":"your cooks in the kingdom and and there"},{"startTime":1827.706,"endTime":1830.536,"body":"shouldn't be compromising on that and"},{"startTime":1827.706,"endTime":1830.536,"body":"if you're having problems with that"},{"startTime":1830.686,"endTime":1832.806,"body":"You need to deal with the problems"},{"startTime":1830.686,"endTime":1832.806,"body":"with like, don't, don't make a bunch of"},{"startTime":1832.806,"endTime":1834.176,"body":"other policies, deal with the problems"},{"startTime":1834.176,"endTime":1834.506,"body":"of that."},{"startTime":1834.516,"endTime":1834.906,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1834.916,"endTime":1836.336,"body":"I want to add a little bit to this."},{"startTime":1836.656,"endTime":1840.436,"body":"So this analogy is just talking about"},{"startTime":1836.656,"endTime":1840.436,"body":"ingredients and dishes and whatnot, right?"},{"startTime":1840.586,"endTime":1845.526,"body":"But, but it, it is, but listen, the"},{"startTime":1840.586,"endTime":1845.526,"body":"thing that matters is every single"},{"startTime":1845.526,"endTime":1847.656,"body":"step in the customer experience."},{"startTime":1847.676,"endTime":1850.756,"body":"Meaning, so let's just stick with"},{"startTime":1847.676,"endTime":1850.756,"body":"the analogy, the restaurant analogy."},{"startTime":1850.886,"endTime":1854.216,"body":"So yeah, yeah, we make pasta, we make"},{"startTime":1850.886,"endTime":1854.216,"body":"sauce, we make them at the same time or"},{"startTime":1854.216,"endTime":1856.036,"body":"at the time when everything gets together."},{"startTime":1856.186,"endTime":1858.116,"body":"But then what if you don't have."},{"startTime":1858.266,"endTime":1861.986,"body":"Wait staff that can deliver it to"},{"startTime":1858.266,"endTime":1861.986,"body":"the table in a timely manner, right?"},{"startTime":1862.296,"endTime":1866.646,"body":"These people aren't creating the"},{"startTime":1862.296,"endTime":1866.646,"body":"dish as such, but they are definitely"},{"startTime":1866.646,"endTime":1868.646,"body":"contributing to the customer experience."},{"startTime":1868.656,"endTime":1869.516,"body":"You better believe that."},{"startTime":1869.666,"endTime":1874.266,"body":"So then if you have a, because restaurant"},{"startTime":1869.666,"endTime":1874.266,"body":"is basically a linear system, right?"},{"startTime":1874.266,"endTime":1877.086,"body":"They have orders that come in"},{"startTime":1874.266,"endTime":1877.086,"body":"and orders that go out or, or."},{"startTime":1877.236,"endTime":1878.076,"body":"Products that go out."},{"startTime":1878.226,"endTime":1880.956,"body":"If you don't balance that,"},{"startTime":1878.226,"endTime":1880.956,"body":"what's going to happen?"},{"startTime":1880.966,"endTime":1881.526,"body":"Think about it."},{"startTime":1881.566,"endTime":1885.466,"body":"We've all been to restaurants where we"},{"startTime":1881.566,"endTime":1885.466,"body":"get suboptimal service, where the food"},{"startTime":1885.466,"endTime":1888.716,"body":"is cold, it arrives late, something"},{"startTime":1885.466,"endTime":1888.716,"body":"that arrives before something else,"},{"startTime":1888.906,"endTime":1892.146,"body":"your salad and your main course arrives"},{"startTime":1888.906,"endTime":1892.146,"body":"at the same time, your soup and your"},{"startTime":1892.146,"endTime":1893.656,"body":"dessert arrives at the same time."},{"startTime":1893.856,"endTime":1895.666,"body":"Like that is what we're trying to"},{"startTime":1895.876,"endTime":1896.716,"body":"avoid here."},{"startTime":1896.746,"endTime":1899.866,"body":"You know, an an analogy that"},{"startTime":1896.746,"endTime":1899.866,"body":"actually works really well in this"},{"startTime":1899.886,"endTime":1902.936,"body":"example is, high-end restaurants."},{"startTime":1903.026,"endTime":1903.536,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1903.536,"endTime":1904.286,"body":"High-end restaurants."},{"startTime":1904.346,"endTime":1904.406,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1904.586,"endTime":1908.756,"body":"High-end restaurants will never"},{"startTime":1904.586,"endTime":1908.756,"body":"bring one thing out at a time."},{"startTime":1908.906,"endTime":1911.756,"body":"The point here with the definition"},{"startTime":1908.906,"endTime":1911.756,"body":"of done, the point here is At"},{"startTime":1911.906,"endTime":1915.326,"body":"every high-end restaurant I've"},{"startTime":1911.906,"endTime":1915.326,"body":"ever been to, they will not bring"},{"startTime":1915.326,"endTime":1917.126,"body":"out one piece of food Absolutely."},{"startTime":1917.126,"endTime":1919.466,"body":"Without bringing the"},{"startTime":1917.126,"endTime":1919.466,"body":"whole table's order out."},{"startTime":1919.526,"endTime":1920.816,"body":"And they commit to this."},{"startTime":1920.846,"endTime":1924.806,"body":"And that means that the cooks back in the"},{"startTime":1920.846,"endTime":1924.806,"body":"kitchen have to line up all the dishes"},{"startTime":1924.811,"endTime":1926.636,"body":"together to bring 'em out together."},{"startTime":1926.636,"endTime":1929.216,"body":"And that's a, that's a level of"},{"startTime":1926.636,"endTime":1929.216,"body":"coordination that, that You know,"},{"startTime":1929.506,"endTime":1931.036,"body":"I guess I'm not trying to say like"},{"startTime":1931.036,"endTime":1934.741,"body":"lesser restaurants, but non high end"},{"startTime":1931.036,"endTime":1934.741,"body":"restaurants lower end restaurants."},{"startTime":1934.891,"endTime":1937.111,"body":"They just, they just"},{"startTime":1934.891,"endTime":1937.111,"body":"don't care about that."},{"startTime":1937.121,"endTime":1937.661,"body":"That's not,"},{"startTime":1937.661,"endTime":1939.921,"body":"they haven't perfected the process yet."},{"startTime":1939.961,"endTime":1942.561,"body":"Let's just say that give them the benefit"},{"startTime":1939.961,"endTime":1942.561,"body":"of doubt, but you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":1942.561,"endTime":1944.131,"body":"So I, those high end restaurants."},{"startTime":1944.281,"endTime":1946.711,"body":"accentuate the customer experience, right?"},{"startTime":1946.761,"endTime":1951.901,"body":"In that way, thereby doubling the chances"},{"startTime":1946.761,"endTime":1951.901,"body":"that you may go back there, right?"},{"startTime":1951.951,"endTime":1952.081,"body":"The"},{"startTime":1952.081,"endTime":1953.491,"body":"perceived quality."},{"startTime":1953.531,"endTime":1954.841,"body":"It's a real thing."},{"startTime":1954.921,"endTime":1955.091,"body":"That's"},{"startTime":1955.241,"endTime":1955.531,"body":"exactly right"},{"startTime":1955.531,"endTime":1957.371,"body":"again We started this podcast"},{"startTime":1955.531,"endTime":1957.371,"body":"after the last podcast."},{"startTime":1957.371,"endTime":1958.141,"body":"Are you talking about quality?"},{"startTime":1958.171,"endTime":1960.601,"body":"Yeah, I'm talking the"},{"startTime":1958.171,"endTime":1960.601,"body":"through line of both."},{"startTime":1960.611,"endTime":1965.121,"body":"These podcasts is quality The DOD,"},{"startTime":1960.611,"endTime":1965.121,"body":"like it's not pitched this way a lot"},{"startTime":1965.121,"endTime":1967.951,"body":"of times, you don't hear it pitched"},{"startTime":1965.121,"endTime":1967.951,"body":"this way a lot of times, it is a way"},{"startTime":1967.951,"endTime":1972.931,"body":"to maintain that high end restaurant"},{"startTime":1967.951,"endTime":1972.931,"body":"quality in your development process."},{"startTime":1972.931,"endTime":1973.141,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1973.421,"endTime":1975.471,"body":"That is the way that it's maintained."},{"startTime":1975.621,"endTime":1978.381,"body":"I feel like we harped on this a while,"},{"startTime":1975.621,"endTime":1978.381,"body":"but it, we ended up on a really good"},{"startTime":1978.381,"endTime":1981.921,"body":"analogy we did of, of high-end restaurants"},{"startTime":1978.381,"endTime":1981.921,"body":"and, and now we're both hungry."},{"startTime":1982.171,"endTime":1982.681,"body":"And now we are."},{"startTime":1982.821,"endTime":1984.691,"body":"I'm, I really would like some breadsticks."},{"startTime":1984.771,"endTime":1986.601,"body":"I'd like to move on to the"},{"startTime":1984.771,"endTime":1986.601,"body":"next category, but Sure."},{"startTime":1986.661,"endTime":1990.201,"body":"But like we, we, we talked about, we"},{"startTime":1986.661,"endTime":1990.201,"body":"talked about the definition of done, and"},{"startTime":1990.201,"endTime":1993.986,"body":"I feel if we break down the definition"},{"startTime":1990.201,"endTime":1993.986,"body":"of done into a more granular level,"},{"startTime":1994.061,"endTime":1994.701,"body":"yeah, that's fine."},{"startTime":1994.921,"endTime":1998.441,"body":"So I think we should stick with our"},{"startTime":1994.921,"endTime":1998.441,"body":"restaurant analogy going there as"},{"startTime":1998.441,"endTime":2000.671,"body":"well, because this is like okay."},{"startTime":2000.941,"endTime":2002.791,"body":"You have your food coming out."},{"startTime":2002.941,"endTime":2007.521,"body":"Maybe it comes out all at the same"},{"startTime":2002.941,"endTime":2007.521,"body":"time, but nobody's come back or even"},{"startTime":2007.561,"endTime":2010.921,"body":"come to your table, which is really"},{"startTime":2007.561,"endTime":2010.921,"body":"terrible, but nobody's come back to"},{"startTime":2010.921,"endTime":2013.131,"body":"see if your drinks need replenishment."},{"startTime":2013.131,"endTime":2015.811,"body":"You need some salt or you need some,"},{"startTime":2013.131,"endTime":2015.811,"body":"yeah, you need some other things."},{"startTime":2015.961,"endTime":2020.361,"body":"And then commitment to continuous"},{"startTime":2015.961,"endTime":2020.361,"body":"improvement of the development"},{"startTime":2020.511,"endTime":2023.031,"body":"process, which is retrospective."},{"startTime":2023.031,"endTime":2025.381,"body":"So, basically, not"},{"startTime":2023.031,"endTime":2025.381,"body":"skipping retrospectives."},{"startTime":2025.621,"endTime":2030.111,"body":"And then, and then, Communication with"},{"startTime":2025.621,"endTime":2030.111,"body":"stakeholders, which normally is wrapped in"},{"startTime":2030.111,"endTime":2034.791,"body":"the retrospective, but if you're not doing"},{"startTime":2030.111,"endTime":2034.791,"body":"scrum, I could easily see people pushing"},{"startTime":2034.791,"endTime":2038.761,"body":"back to say, Well, I'm not doing scrum, so"},{"startTime":2034.791,"endTime":2038.761,"body":"I don't need to sprint demo and a sprint"},{"startTime":2038.761,"endTime":2040.551,"body":"retrospective because I'm not doing scrum."},{"startTime":2040.561,"endTime":2041.591,"body":"I've seen plenty of people do that."},{"startTime":2041.781,"endTime":2043.711,"body":"I don't need a scrum master"},{"startTime":2041.781,"endTime":2043.711,"body":"because I'm not doing scrum."},{"startTime":2044.011,"endTime":2050.191,"body":"That's fine, but I need communication"},{"startTime":2044.011,"endTime":2050.191,"body":"with stakeholders and I need continuous"},{"startTime":2050.191,"endTime":2054.206,"body":"improvement spelled out in my definition"},{"startTime":2050.191,"endTime":2054.206,"body":"of done to say, have we looked at the"},{"startTime":2054.206,"endTime":2059.556,"body":"feature in the field in production to see"},{"startTime":2054.206,"endTime":2059.556,"body":"if it meets the customer's actual need."},{"startTime":2059.706,"endTime":2061.186,"body":"And when that is finished."},{"startTime":2061.336,"endTime":2063.846,"body":"We can truly say that we are"},{"startTime":2061.336,"endTime":2063.846,"body":"done with this line of work."},{"startTime":2063.996,"endTime":2067.326,"body":"I could not agree more I mean, I"},{"startTime":2063.996,"endTime":2067.326,"body":"really i'm stretching with a lot of"},{"startTime":2067.326,"endTime":2070.266,"body":"teams normal dods because these are"},{"startTime":2067.326,"endTime":2070.266,"body":"not Some of these are some of these"},{"startTime":2070.266,"endTime":2072.796,"body":"are csed Automation those are normal."},{"startTime":2072.806,"endTime":2076.676,"body":"Sure, but some of these are not normal"},{"startTime":2072.806,"endTime":2076.676,"body":"to be in the definition of done But I"},{"startTime":2076.676,"endTime":2077.986,"body":"think they probably should be they should"},{"startTime":2077.986,"endTime":2082.546,"body":"be absolutely again I listen I agree"},{"startTime":2077.986,"endTime":2082.546,"body":"with you when something is just put out"},{"startTime":2082.546,"endTime":2084.566,"body":"into the field and you say I'm done."},{"startTime":2084.636,"endTime":2086.106,"body":"Yeah, you're not really."},{"startTime":2086.176,"endTime":2090.876,"body":"So going back to our restaurant metaphor,"},{"startTime":2086.176,"endTime":2090.876,"body":"Brian Ohms restaurant, we want to call it"},{"startTime":2090.936,"endTime":2093.336,"body":"right on software development"},{"startTime":2090.936,"endTime":2093.336,"body":"company turned restaurant."},{"startTime":2093.486,"endTime":2093.906,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":2093.936,"endTime":2099.666,"body":"So what happens when You go into"},{"startTime":2093.936,"endTime":2099.666,"body":"a restaurant and everything is"},{"startTime":2099.686,"endTime":2103.266,"body":"going according to plan, meaning"},{"startTime":2099.686,"endTime":2103.266,"body":"you order something, it comes out"},{"startTime":2103.341,"endTime":2107.181,"body":"your entire Party has all their"},{"startTime":2103.341,"endTime":2107.181,"body":"food delivered at the same time."},{"startTime":2107.181,"endTime":2108.721,"body":"Everybody's ordered something different."},{"startTime":2108.721,"endTime":2113.411,"body":"It's hot great It's all correct,"},{"startTime":2108.721,"endTime":2113.411,"body":"and it tastes great right, but"},{"startTime":2113.561,"endTime":2115.261,"body":"then you don't hear from anybody."},{"startTime":2115.271,"endTime":2118.141,"body":"You know, your wait person is"},{"startTime":2115.271,"endTime":2118.141,"body":"AWOL Yeah, that's not good."},{"startTime":2118.181,"endTime":2119.451,"body":"All your waters are empty."},{"startTime":2119.471,"endTime":2123.471,"body":"That's right So if you don't have frequent"},{"startTime":2119.471,"endTime":2123.471,"body":"checkpoints from that, from that weight"},{"startTime":2123.471,"endTime":2125.811,"body":"person saying, what else do you need?"},{"startTime":2125.891,"endTime":2126.291,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2126.301,"endTime":2127.851,"body":"Can I get, get you another drink?"},{"startTime":2128.171,"endTime":2129.921,"body":"That's what we're talking"},{"startTime":2128.171,"endTime":2129.921,"body":"about here, right?"},{"startTime":2129.931,"endTime":2133.011,"body":"Put it out into the field,"},{"startTime":2129.931,"endTime":2133.011,"body":"but that's not enough, right?"},{"startTime":2133.031,"endTime":2135.641,"body":"You need to then survey how it's going."},{"startTime":2135.991,"endTime":2137.421,"body":"Is it going good, bad, ugly?"},{"startTime":2137.421,"endTime":2139.051,"body":"Otherwise, how, and then learn from that."},{"startTime":2139.051,"endTime":2140.301,"body":"If it's going great, that's okay."},{"startTime":2140.301,"endTime":2141.591,"body":"But how can you make it better?"},{"startTime":2141.701,"endTime":2144.801,"body":"What a terrible situation"},{"startTime":2141.701,"endTime":2144.801,"body":"where everyone is doing."},{"startTime":2144.831,"endTime":2146.531,"body":"Everyone is working."},{"startTime":2146.681,"endTime":2150.921,"body":"The best of their ability did their best"},{"startTime":2146.681,"endTime":2150.921,"body":"to deliver the most difficult part to you."},{"startTime":2150.951,"endTime":2152.231,"body":"They, they did all the food."},{"startTime":2152.521,"endTime":2155.661,"body":"They cooked all things with different"},{"startTime":2152.521,"endTime":2155.661,"body":"cook times and they arranged it."},{"startTime":2155.661,"endTime":2158.781,"body":"So they all landed on your table,"},{"startTime":2155.661,"endTime":2158.781,"body":"hot and ready at the exact same time."},{"startTime":2158.931,"endTime":2160.601,"body":"And then one person"},{"startTime":2158.931,"endTime":2160.601,"body":"doesn't have silverware."},{"startTime":2160.911,"endTime":2162.831,"body":"What a what a, what a letdown, man."},{"startTime":2162.831,"endTime":2164.481,"body":"That's the easiest thing to resolve."},{"startTime":2164.551,"endTime":2165.101,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2165.281,"endTime":2168.361,"body":"So as a restaurant, would"},{"startTime":2165.281,"endTime":2168.361,"body":"you want ownership, right?"},{"startTime":2168.361,"endTime":2169.531,"body":"Would you want to know about that?"},{"startTime":2169.681,"endTime":2170.471,"body":"You should, right?"},{"startTime":2170.511,"endTime":2174.411,"body":"Because that person or that party, in"},{"startTime":2170.511,"endTime":2174.411,"body":"fact, if it's multiple people, guess what?"},{"startTime":2174.441,"endTime":2176.231,"body":"They're going to go and"},{"startTime":2174.441,"endTime":2176.231,"body":"tell people about that."},{"startTime":2176.381,"endTime":2180.201,"body":"And there's research out there that"},{"startTime":2176.381,"endTime":2180.201,"body":"says a happy customer doesn't really"},{"startTime":2180.201,"endTime":2182.001,"body":"tell more than maybe one or two people."},{"startTime":2182.331,"endTime":2183.911,"body":"But an unhappy customer..."},{"startTime":2184.186,"endTime":2189.006,"body":"Talks to up to 10 people saying how"},{"startTime":2184.186,"endTime":2189.006,"body":"unhappy they were this this is out there."},{"startTime":2189.006,"endTime":2192.686,"body":"If you as a restaurant owner don't"},{"startTime":2189.006,"endTime":2192.686,"body":"want to hear about it, that's a huge"},{"startTime":2192.686,"endTime":2196.316,"body":"issue, right, because you're ignoring"},{"startTime":2192.686,"endTime":2196.316,"body":"your customer behavior right there, or"},{"startTime":2196.316,"endTime":2200.446,"body":"the impact of what your efforts are to"},{"startTime":2196.316,"endTime":2200.446,"body":"please your customer, so going back to"},{"startTime":2200.446,"endTime":2205.286,"body":"the business at hand here, Your team"},{"startTime":2200.446,"endTime":2205.286,"body":"has developed stuff, tested stuff."},{"startTime":2205.306,"endTime":2208.476,"body":"It's great, and they delivered"},{"startTime":2205.306,"endTime":2208.476,"body":"it on in a timely manner."},{"startTime":2208.536,"endTime":2208.876,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2208.956,"endTime":2211.246,"body":"It's now in the customer's hands."},{"startTime":2211.336,"endTime":2211.596,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2211.626,"endTime":2212.166,"body":"You're not done."},{"startTime":2212.316,"endTime":2213.156,"body":"That's what I would say."},{"startTime":2213.156,"endTime":2216.596,"body":"And people are listening to this,"},{"startTime":2213.156,"endTime":2216.596,"body":"watching this are going, what do you mean?"},{"startTime":2216.636,"endTime":2217.326,"body":"We're done."},{"startTime":2217.346,"endTime":2218.206,"body":"It's in their hands."},{"startTime":2218.226,"endTime":2219.426,"body":"Isn't that what we wanted to do?"},{"startTime":2219.576,"endTime":2220.496,"body":"Yeah, not quite."},{"startTime":2220.646,"endTime":2222.096,"body":"That's most of what you wanted to do."},{"startTime":2222.246,"endTime":2224.326,"body":"Did it really satisfy their need?"},{"startTime":2224.416,"endTime":2224.816,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2224.856,"endTime":2228.556,"body":"And that little extra step"},{"startTime":2224.856,"endTime":2228.556,"body":"is huge in its impact."},{"startTime":2228.566,"endTime":2228.816,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2228.826,"endTime":2229.456,"body":"Miss that"},{"startTime":2229.496,"endTime":2230.236,"body":"at your peril."},{"startTime":2230.526,"endTime":2232.816,"body":"And that's this is the second"},{"startTime":2230.526,"endTime":2232.816,"body":"podcast we brought this up on."},{"startTime":2233.006,"endTime":2235.826,"body":"And it's a real high"},{"startTime":2233.006,"endTime":2235.826,"body":"concept for a lot of people."},{"startTime":2235.836,"endTime":2236.186,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":2236.186,"endTime":2238.436,"body":"Because it's not like any of the scrum."},{"startTime":2238.496,"endTime":2240.186,"body":"No, it's not taught anywhere."},{"startTime":2240.206,"endTime":2241.486,"body":"We don't bring this up."},{"startTime":2241.706,"endTime":2246.646,"body":"You know, the idea that Communication,"},{"startTime":2241.706,"endTime":2246.646,"body":"with your stakeholders after you delivered"},{"startTime":2246.646,"endTime":2251.916,"body":"something like you have a real good chance"},{"startTime":2246.646,"endTime":2251.916,"body":"inside the scrum model to do it as part"},{"startTime":2251.966,"endTime":2253.906,"body":"of your as part of your sprint review."},{"startTime":2253.946,"endTime":2254.276,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2254.351,"endTime":2255.641,"body":"To demo the feature."},{"startTime":2255.771,"endTime":2258.641,"body":"You know, the, the, the more the"},{"startTime":2255.771,"endTime":2258.641,"body":"customer puts their hands on it,"},{"startTime":2258.641,"endTime":2259.721,"body":"the better in the sprint review."},{"startTime":2259.796,"endTime":2261.186,"body":"You have two opportunities."},{"startTime":2261.446,"endTime":2265.296,"body":"One is the interview where you"},{"startTime":2261.446,"endTime":2265.296,"body":"actually walk the user through the"},{"startTime":2265.296,"endTime":2268.456,"body":"functionality and you sit through it"},{"startTime":2265.296,"endTime":2268.456,"body":"and say, what do you like about this?"},{"startTime":2268.536,"endTime":2269.726,"body":"What's frustrating?"},{"startTime":2269.876,"endTime":2271.076,"body":"Does this capture your need?"},{"startTime":2271.126,"endTime":2271.976,"body":"What's left out?"},{"startTime":2272.036,"endTime":2274.776,"body":"You, you, you prompt them with open"},{"startTime":2272.036,"endTime":2274.776,"body":"ended questions, see where they go."},{"startTime":2274.796,"endTime":2276.046,"body":"That the synchronous method."},{"startTime":2276.196,"endTime":2280.811,"body":"The asynchronous method is surveys"},{"startTime":2276.196,"endTime":2280.811,"body":"whether it's an after the fact survey"},{"startTime":2280.811,"endTime":2283.951,"body":"that you send them or whether it's,"},{"startTime":2280.811,"endTime":2283.951,"body":"whether you actually build surveys"},{"startTime":2284.031,"endTime":2287.241,"body":"into your application in the world of"},{"startTime":2284.031,"endTime":2287.241,"body":"mobile development, we used to do that."},{"startTime":2287.241,"endTime":2288.831,"body":"We would build surveys into new fun."},{"startTime":2289.001,"endTime":2290.911,"body":"So you'd hit new functionality."},{"startTime":2291.061,"endTime":2294.701,"body":"And the application would know"},{"startTime":2291.061,"endTime":2294.701,"body":"whether this is the first time"},{"startTime":2294.711,"endTime":2296.271,"body":"you've got to that screen or not."},{"startTime":2296.511,"endTime":2299.761,"body":"And, and it would know to prompt"},{"startTime":2296.511,"endTime":2299.761,"body":"you with the, the pop up that"},{"startTime":2299.761,"endTime":2301.041,"body":"says, Hey, did you like that?"},{"startTime":2301.051,"endTime":2302.121,"body":"How is your experience?"},{"startTime":2302.121,"endTime":2303.081,"body":"Thumbs up, thumbs down."},{"startTime":2303.341,"endTime":2306.241,"body":"And then if you have thumbs down,"},{"startTime":2303.341,"endTime":2306.241,"body":"if you hit thumbs down, it gave"},{"startTime":2306.241,"endTime":2307.831,"body":"you a little box to put texts in."},{"startTime":2307.871,"endTime":2309.611,"body":"People could, most people skip that stuff."},{"startTime":2309.631,"endTime":2309.941,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2309.951,"endTime":2313.621,"body":"But some people put a text in and you"},{"startTime":2309.951,"endTime":2313.621,"body":"would capture that and you, and you're."},{"startTime":2313.941,"endTime":2317.061,"body":"Theoretically your product people would"},{"startTime":2313.941,"endTime":2317.061,"body":"be reviewing that on a regular basis."},{"startTime":2317.121,"endTime":2317.361,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2317.361,"endTime":2319.341,"body":"You get a lot of like gripes"},{"startTime":2317.361,"endTime":2319.341,"body":"that you would expect."},{"startTime":2319.491,"endTime":2319.551,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2319.641,"endTime":2322.436,"body":"But occasionally you get some diamonds."},{"startTime":2322.706,"endTime":2326.366,"body":"I personally like synchronous"},{"startTime":2322.706,"endTime":2326.366,"body":"better than asynchronous."},{"startTime":2326.366,"endTime":2326.756,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2326.906,"endTime":2327.207,"body":"I think you get."},{"startTime":2327.357,"endTime":2329.597,"body":"You get to see the"},{"startTime":2327.357,"endTime":2329.597,"body":"reaction on someone's face."},{"startTime":2329.747,"endTime":2332.377,"body":"And if someone gives you a sour"},{"startTime":2329.747,"endTime":2332.377,"body":"reaction, you can say, well, why"},{"startTime":2332.377,"endTime":2333.697,"body":"do you, what makes you say that?"},{"startTime":2333.697,"endTime":2334.657,"body":"Or what makes you, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2334.657,"endTime":2338.247,"body":"You can dig, you can dig, you"},{"startTime":2334.657,"endTime":2338.247,"body":"can't really dig asynchronously."},{"startTime":2338.397,"endTime":2338.587,"body":"You"},{"startTime":2338.587,"endTime":2338.807,"body":"can."},{"startTime":2338.817,"endTime":2342.017,"body":"And people fake asynchronous"},{"startTime":2338.817,"endTime":2342.017,"body":"as well to a large degree."},{"startTime":2342.267,"endTime":2343.442,"body":"So the majority of people skip it."},{"startTime":2343.592,"endTime":2343.862,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2343.862,"endTime":2347.662,"body":"And the other thing they tend to do"},{"startTime":2343.862,"endTime":2347.662,"body":"is oftentimes you see these things"},{"startTime":2347.662,"endTime":2351.437,"body":"like NPS queries, things like they"},{"startTime":2347.662,"endTime":2351.437,"body":"just give you a scale one to 10."},{"startTime":2351.587,"endTime":2351.927,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2352.247,"endTime":2354.117,"body":"How likely are you to recommend that?"},{"startTime":2354.267,"endTime":2354.477,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2354.537,"endTime":2354.947,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2354.957,"endTime":2360.667,"body":"But to your point, if you see"},{"startTime":2354.957,"endTime":2360.667,"body":"people hesitating, wincing, You"},{"startTime":2360.667,"endTime":2362.052,"body":"can actually dig deeper there."},{"startTime":2362.092,"endTime":2363.772,"body":"So I think there's no, there's no doubt."},{"startTime":2363.782,"endTime":2365.392,"body":"That's a much better way to go."},{"startTime":2365.542,"endTime":2369.772,"body":"A lot of times in coming back to our"},{"startTime":2365.542,"endTime":2369.772,"body":"DOD discussion, a lot of times people"},{"startTime":2369.772,"endTime":2370.952,"body":"don't even think about all of that."},{"startTime":2370.962,"endTime":2373.482,"body":"They just say, well, it's"},{"startTime":2370.962,"endTime":2373.482,"body":"already delivered to production."},{"startTime":2373.482,"endTime":2375.292,"body":"So we met that milestone and we're done."},{"startTime":2375.372,"endTime":2375.592,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2375.702,"endTime":2377.992,"body":"Like you really aren't done."},{"startTime":2378.307,"endTime":2382.047,"body":"It's not enough to get to a point"},{"startTime":2378.307,"endTime":2382.047,"body":"that you think is the end point"},{"startTime":2382.067,"endTime":2383.617,"body":"because it's not the end point."},{"startTime":2383.907,"endTime":2384.587,"body":"Think about..."},{"startTime":2384.737,"endTime":2387.727,"body":"A lot of people get hung up on"},{"startTime":2384.737,"endTime":2387.727,"body":"this and say, That's not us, right?"},{"startTime":2387.727,"endTime":2390.177,"body":"That's the marketing people, the"},{"startTime":2387.727,"endTime":2390.177,"body":"sales people, the product people."},{"startTime":2390.327,"endTime":2391.867,"body":"Like, that is the problem."},{"startTime":2391.907,"endTime":2394.357,"body":"That is the problem when"},{"startTime":2391.907,"endTime":2394.357,"body":"people say, that's not us."},{"startTime":2394.517,"endTime":2395.897,"body":"Why are you here?"},{"startTime":2396.047,"endTime":2398.277,"body":"You're here to delight the customer."},{"startTime":2398.557,"endTime":2400.177,"body":"Listen, not satisfy them."},{"startTime":2400.207,"endTime":2401.882,"body":"Because you satisfy them, that's okay."},{"startTime":2401.882,"endTime":2402.197,"body":"podcast..."},{"startTime":2402.347,"endTime":2405.737,"body":"Take that the product manager on the"},{"startTime":2402.347,"endTime":2405.737,"body":"podcast said listen, you can have 500"},{"startTime":2405.747,"endTime":2409.247,"body":"bugs in your backlog and your product"},{"startTime":2405.747,"endTime":2409.247,"body":"can have, you, you might have to tip toe"},{"startTime":2409.247,"endTime":2413.087,"body":"through your product in order to make"},{"startTime":2409.247,"endTime":2413.087,"body":"it through a transaction successfully."},{"startTime":2413.327,"endTime":2418.047,"body":"However, if you're truly solving a"},{"startTime":2413.327,"endTime":2418.047,"body":"business problem during your tiptoeing"},{"startTime":2418.197,"endTime":2420.627,"body":"through, through, through the happy"},{"startTime":2418.197,"endTime":2420.627,"body":"path through your application."},{"startTime":2420.777,"endTime":2426.647,"body":"And you're, you're truly involving your"},{"startTime":2420.777,"endTime":2426.647,"body":"customers and, and, and really dedicating"},{"startTime":2426.667,"endTime":2429.547,"body":"toward that customer experience, what"},{"startTime":2426.667,"endTime":2429.547,"body":"we're talking about, the actual, when you"},{"startTime":2429.547,"endTime":2433.327,"body":"deliver the meal, it is hot, it is fresh,"},{"startTime":2429.547,"endTime":2433.327,"body":"it tastes good, and it's made exactly"},{"startTime":2433.327,"endTime":2434.677,"body":"the way the customer wants every time."},{"startTime":2434.827,"endTime":2438.297,"body":"I mean, the customer will deal with"},{"startTime":2434.827,"endTime":2438.297,"body":"a lot of pain in the application"},{"startTime":2438.587,"endTime":2439.707,"body":"to get through that path."},{"startTime":2439.857,"endTime":2443.317,"body":"I worked on a lot of applications"},{"startTime":2439.857,"endTime":2443.317,"body":"that are really, really terrible"},{"startTime":2443.317,"endTime":2444.377,"body":"once you stray from the path."},{"startTime":2444.427,"endTime":2444.807,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2444.957,"endTime":2446.917,"body":"Problem that they solve is so painful."},{"startTime":2447.067,"endTime":2449.937,"body":"The customers are willing to come back"},{"startTime":2447.067,"endTime":2449.937,"body":"again and again and again, no matter how"},{"startTime":2449.937,"endTime":2453.207,"body":"bad the product is, no matter how bad"},{"startTime":2449.937,"endTime":2453.207,"body":"the businesses run behind the scenes."},{"startTime":2453.357,"endTime":2455.157,"body":"So there there's light"},{"startTime":2453.357,"endTime":2455.157,"body":"at the end of the tunnel."},{"startTime":2455.337,"endTime":2459.077,"body":"Like that, we, there's a couple of"},{"startTime":2455.337,"endTime":2459.077,"body":"strategies that we gave segment your bugs,"},{"startTime":2459.227,"endTime":2461.157,"body":"tackle them tackle them one at a time."},{"startTime":2461.307,"endTime":2464.767,"body":"It seems daunting to start with,"},{"startTime":2461.307,"endTime":2464.767,"body":"especially when things are in the past."},{"startTime":2464.917,"endTime":2468.087,"body":"But you got to start somewhere,"},{"startTime":2464.917,"endTime":2468.087,"body":"the quality starts with you."},{"startTime":2468.237,"endTime":2468.907,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2469.007,"endTime":2470.827,"body":"I want to just end with the tip, right?"},{"startTime":2470.867,"endTime":2474.497,"body":"Which is you can have stories, you can"},{"startTime":2470.867,"endTime":2474.497,"body":"have features, you can have this and that."},{"startTime":2474.647,"endTime":2478.787,"body":"Why don't we talk about"},{"startTime":2474.647,"endTime":2478.787,"body":"putting up a simple statement?"},{"startTime":2478.857,"endTime":2480.627,"body":"And this doesn't have to be a work item."},{"startTime":2480.677,"endTime":2485.297,"body":"So in the context of the time box, think"},{"startTime":2480.677,"endTime":2485.297,"body":"about all the work within that time box"},{"startTime":2485.297,"endTime":2490.047,"body":"and say, as a team, which is everybody,"},{"startTime":2485.297,"endTime":2490.047,"body":"product, everyone, sales, even right."},{"startTime":2490.047,"endTime":2493.567,"body":"Customers get them involved and say,"},{"startTime":2490.047,"endTime":2493.567,"body":"is this really what we're trying to do?"},{"startTime":2493.617,"endTime":2493.997,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2494.097,"endTime":2495.117,"body":"Add to this, please."},{"startTime":2495.267,"endTime":2499.447,"body":"So if you're missing that, they will"},{"startTime":2495.267,"endTime":2499.447,"body":"tell you, and then you can course correct"},{"startTime":2499.477,"endTime":2502.847,"body":"quicker because you're in the time"},{"startTime":2499.477,"endTime":2502.847,"body":"box as opposed to like sometimes later"},{"startTime":2502.847,"endTime":2504.662,"body":"when things are already out of hand."},{"startTime":2504.812,"endTime":2505.092,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2505.092,"endTime":2506.512,"body":"Well, that's this podcast."},{"startTime":2506.582,"endTime":2508.802,"body":"I don't know if we'll do"},{"startTime":2506.582,"endTime":2508.802,"body":"another one in our QA series"},{"startTime":2508.802,"endTime":2509.762,"body":"of podcasts, but this is fun."},{"startTime":2509.762,"endTime":2510.212,"body":"We,"},{"startTime":2510.212,"endTime":2511.062,"body":"Never said ever."},{"startTime":2511.102,"endTime":2515.082,"body":"We might, especially if you guys"},{"startTime":2511.102,"endTime":2515.082,"body":"let us know in the comments below,"},{"startTime":2515.232,"endTime":2518.477,"body":"never should ever and like, or"},{"startTime":2515.232,"endTime":2518.477,"body":"like, and subscribe any which way"},{"startTime":2518.477,"endTime":2520.137,"body":"you want but just hit that button."}]}