{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":3.359,"body":"Alex, Alex you're a CEO and"},{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":3.359,"body":"founder of your organization."},{"startTime":3.359,"endTime":3.699,"body":"Alex."},{"startTime":3.699,"endTime":4.529,"body":"Welcome to the podcast."},{"startTime":4.679,"endTime":5.169,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":5.249,"endTime":5.759,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":5.799,"endTime":8.999,"body":"Was like Alex and I we started"},{"startTime":5.799,"endTime":8.999,"body":"corresponding online and started"},{"startTime":9.049,"endTime":12.04,"body":"talking about the podcast and our"},{"startTime":9.049,"endTime":12.04,"body":"mutual well, I don't know about"},{"startTime":12.04,"endTime":14.089,"body":"mutual, but my hatred of JIRA."},{"startTime":14.239,"endTime":14.849,"body":"Pretty mutual."},{"startTime":15.049,"endTime":17.859,"body":"Okay, our mutual hatred of, sorry,"},{"startTime":15.049,"endTime":17.859,"body":"I don't want to put words in your"},{"startTime":17.859,"endTime":19.949,"body":"mouth, our mutual hatred of JIRA."},{"startTime":20.239,"endTime":21.439,"body":", but now that Alex is here."},{"startTime":21.589,"endTime":26.364,"body":"I find it super interesting about"},{"startTime":21.589,"endTime":26.364,"body":"your journey from, engineer to CEO,"},{"startTime":26.394,"endTime":28.995,"body":"because I consider that somewhat rare."},{"startTime":29.145,"endTime":29.395,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":29.395,"endTime":31.904,"body":"and Alex, you're a serial entrepreneur."},{"startTime":31.925,"endTime":33.135,"body":"You've done this more than once."},{"startTime":33.285,"endTime":36.935,"body":"Yeah, I guess stupidity is a big"},{"startTime":33.285,"endTime":36.935,"body":"answer, but yeah, I, I, I was never"},{"startTime":36.935,"endTime":38.995,"body":"intentioned to be running the company."},{"startTime":39.005,"endTime":41.535,"body":"And as a matter of fact,"},{"startTime":39.005,"endTime":41.535,"body":"my first experience."},{"startTime":41.685,"endTime":44.515,"body":"It wasn't really my choice to be the CEO."},{"startTime":44.565,"endTime":45.965,"body":"It was two technical founders."},{"startTime":45.965,"endTime":46.905,"body":"We got together."},{"startTime":47.055,"endTime":50.404,"body":"I actually went to work for"},{"startTime":47.055,"endTime":50.404,"body":"my partner at that time."},{"startTime":50.554,"endTime":52.695,"body":"He was running a different"},{"startTime":50.554,"endTime":52.695,"body":"company, but that folded."},{"startTime":52.845,"endTime":54.715,"body":"I guess he forgot to tell"},{"startTime":52.845,"endTime":54.715,"body":"me it wasn't well funded."},{"startTime":55.045,"endTime":57.974,"body":"But when that folded we were"},{"startTime":55.045,"endTime":57.974,"body":"sitting there and we decided to"},{"startTime":57.974,"endTime":59.214,"body":"launch something else together."},{"startTime":59.544,"endTime":63.034,"body":"But by that time, he went"},{"startTime":59.544,"endTime":63.034,"body":"through so much stress that..."},{"startTime":63.184,"endTime":67.384,"body":"He was like, listen I think because"},{"startTime":63.184,"endTime":67.384,"body":"you took a job of a product in"},{"startTime":67.384,"endTime":69.984,"body":"a previous startup, I think you"},{"startTime":67.384,"endTime":69.984,"body":"have a better way to communicate."},{"startTime":69.984,"endTime":72.414,"body":"So why don't you take"},{"startTime":69.984,"endTime":72.414,"body":"the reins and be the CEO?"},{"startTime":72.734,"endTime":77.654,"body":"And that kind of spawned off the"},{"startTime":72.734,"endTime":77.654,"body":"next phase of my career which"},{"startTime":77.654,"endTime":80.064,"body":"is interesting in many ways."},{"startTime":80.214,"endTime":83.604,"body":"Not only was I a tech guy, engineer."},{"startTime":83.754,"endTime":86.904,"body":"But I'm also the guy that had to"},{"startTime":83.754,"endTime":86.904,"body":"learn how to sell, the guy that had"},{"startTime":86.904,"endTime":88.374,"body":"to develop the vision of a product."},{"startTime":88.394,"endTime":91.804,"body":"Now, I always had a knack for that,"},{"startTime":88.394,"endTime":91.804,"body":"especially in user experience, love"},{"startTime":91.804,"endTime":94.284,"body":"doing that, used to be a full stack guy."},{"startTime":94.314,"endTime":97.614,"body":"Now, I wouldn't touch the front end"},{"startTime":94.314,"endTime":97.614,"body":"with my uh, with a six foot pole."},{"startTime":97.854,"endTime":101.75,"body":"But , there were certain things that"},{"startTime":97.854,"endTime":101.75,"body":"were extremely difficult for me and"},{"startTime":101.78,"endTime":106.19,"body":"because, uh, being an engineer, it's"},{"startTime":101.78,"endTime":106.19,"body":"sort of more of a exact science,"},{"startTime":106.34,"endTime":111.83,"body":"but becoming, becoming a CEO and"},{"startTime":106.34,"endTime":111.83,"body":"especially of a startup, you have to"},{"startTime":111.83,"endTime":114.09,"body":"wear the hat of perception is reality."},{"startTime":114.24,"endTime":117.86,"body":"So I had to go through and"},{"startTime":114.24,"endTime":117.86,"body":"educate myself on a lot of things."},{"startTime":118.01,"endTime":123.99,"body":"And I had to almost learn how to"},{"startTime":118.01,"endTime":123.99,"body":"change my own persona depending"},{"startTime":123.99,"endTime":125.87,"body":"on who I was communicating with."},{"startTime":126.02,"endTime":129.98,"body":"And that took, that took a little while,"},{"startTime":126.02,"endTime":129.98,"body":"but you know, there are certain things"},{"startTime":129.98,"endTime":134.7,"body":"that came out positive out of that"},{"startTime":129.98,"endTime":134.7,"body":"because I'm not a natural business person."},{"startTime":134.85,"endTime":137.43,"body":"Because I'm not a natural product person."},{"startTime":137.58,"endTime":139.96,"body":"I'm more of still the engineer."},{"startTime":140.26,"endTime":143.77,"body":"I have this thing in me"},{"startTime":140.26,"endTime":143.77,"body":"called the prep work."},{"startTime":143.92,"endTime":146.73,"body":"So I had a chance to pitch the startup"},{"startTime":146.88,"endTime":148.19,"body":"so I would learn my routine."},{"startTime":148.44,"endTime":149.72,"body":"I would learn my slides."},{"startTime":149.72,"endTime":151.53,"body":"I would work on them for hours."},{"startTime":151.68,"endTime":153.27,"body":"And we actually won."},{"startTime":153.42,"endTime":156.08,"body":"I had to pitch in front of"},{"startTime":153.42,"endTime":156.08,"body":"like 800 people audience."},{"startTime":156.23,"endTime":157.4,"body":"Won in the first place."},{"startTime":157.53,"endTime":158.28,"body":"Got the votes."},{"startTime":158.29,"endTime":159.28,"body":"It was pretty exciting."},{"startTime":159.43,"endTime":162.69,"body":"And that kind of built a lot of"},{"startTime":159.43,"endTime":162.69,"body":"the confidence moving forward."},{"startTime":162.84,"endTime":166.08,"body":"That gave us a little bit"},{"startTime":162.84,"endTime":166.08,"body":"more of reinforcement."},{"startTime":166.23,"endTime":170.69,"body":"That we were recognized and now we"},{"startTime":166.23,"endTime":170.69,"body":"could rely on it to build a business."},{"startTime":170.7,"endTime":173.47,"body":"So that's kind of how the previous"},{"startTime":170.7,"endTime":173.47,"body":"started, the startup began."},{"startTime":173.62,"endTime":175.26,"body":"I ran it for three and a half years."},{"startTime":175.41,"endTime":177.11,"body":"It exited in 2020."},{"startTime":177.35,"endTime":179.05,"body":"I wasn't there when that happened."},{"startTime":179.31,"endTime":181.28,"body":"But that's a kind of a different story."},{"startTime":181.42,"endTime":181.95,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":182.1,"endTime":186.24,"body":"So let's kind of just take a slow"},{"startTime":182.1,"endTime":186.24,"body":"mo walk through that, if we may."},{"startTime":186.39,"endTime":190.735,"body":"When you got into this role as the CEO,"},{"startTime":186.39,"endTime":190.735,"body":"what did you experience as the, the,"},{"startTime":190.815,"endTime":195.25,"body":"the top things that really bothered you"},{"startTime":190.815,"endTime":195.25,"body":"initially that you conquered and how"},{"startTime":195.25,"endTime":197.09,"body":"did you, how did you win those battles?"},{"startTime":197.24,"endTime":197.82,"body":"Good question."},{"startTime":197.82,"endTime":202.78,"body":"So number one thing that bothered me is"},{"startTime":197.82,"endTime":202.78,"body":"taking money from my early investors."},{"startTime":202.93,"endTime":204.559,"body":"I was always very forward thinking."},{"startTime":204.56,"endTime":208.06,"body":"Frugal and responsible taking money and"},{"startTime":204.56,"endTime":208.06,"body":"even though I knew it's a business and"},{"startTime":208.06,"endTime":211.92,"body":"they could burn through it, I had the"},{"startTime":208.06,"endTime":211.92,"body":"personal responsibility that I could not"},{"startTime":211.95,"endTime":217.175,"body":"let those folks down so they've supported"},{"startTime":211.95,"endTime":217.175,"body":"me and I felt responsible for every dollar"},{"startTime":217.175,"endTime":222.41,"body":"that I spent, , which is very contrary"},{"startTime":217.175,"endTime":222.41,"body":"to how people raise capital right now."},{"startTime":222.56,"endTime":226.55,"body":"There is some access to easy money and"},{"startTime":222.56,"endTime":226.55,"body":"if you know how to pitch certain things"},{"startTime":226.55,"endTime":228.19,"body":"very well, you could be very lucky."},{"startTime":228.34,"endTime":230.32,"body":"Plus there's connections"},{"startTime":228.34,"endTime":230.32,"body":"that you can have."},{"startTime":230.57,"endTime":233.77,"body":"I did not have that starting out, so"},{"startTime":230.57,"endTime":233.77,"body":"I had to sort of go from the bottom."},{"startTime":233.96,"endTime":234.09,"body":"That's"},{"startTime":234.09,"endTime":234.43,"body":"interesting."},{"startTime":234.44,"endTime":239.93,"body":"You actually stood through and stood true,"},{"startTime":234.44,"endTime":239.93,"body":"I should say with your scruples, right?"},{"startTime":239.93,"endTime":243.25,"body":"It's somebody's money, but you felt"},{"startTime":239.93,"endTime":243.25,"body":"responsible on how that was spent?"},{"startTime":243.4,"endTime":244.48,"body":"Absolutely, yeah."},{"startTime":244.52,"endTime":245.07,"body":"I, that is so"},{"startTime":245.07,"endTime":247.26,"body":"refreshing to hear, because"},{"startTime":245.07,"endTime":247.26,"body":"you don't hear that very often."},{"startTime":247.38,"endTime":247.73,"body":"Well,"},{"startTime":247.75,"endTime":249.22,"body":"so here's the thing, right?"},{"startTime":249.22,"endTime":251.98,"body":"What most people don't recognize"},{"startTime":249.22,"endTime":251.98,"body":"is being a startup CEO sucks."},{"startTime":252.13,"endTime":254.16,"body":"I made a lot more money being an engineer."},{"startTime":254.235,"endTime":256.465,"body":"My ex wife didn't work at that time."},{"startTime":256.54,"endTime":258.96,"body":"We were a family of three and"},{"startTime":256.54,"endTime":258.96,"body":"I had to support everybody"},{"startTime":258.96,"endTime":260.8,"body":"and it was, it wasn't easy."},{"startTime":260.96,"endTime":263.66,"body":"So you're writing these"},{"startTime":260.96,"endTime":263.66,"body":"checks for quite a lot."},{"startTime":263.68,"endTime":267.21,"body":"You're paying salary to the developers,"},{"startTime":263.68,"endTime":267.21,"body":"you're doing all these things, but"},{"startTime":267.22,"endTime":270.09,"body":"you're, you're writing a check to"},{"startTime":267.22,"endTime":270.09,"body":"yourself and you're almost crying."},{"startTime":270.09,"endTime":271.81,"body":"You're like, whoa, whoa, what's this?"},{"startTime":271.96,"endTime":272.28,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":272.28,"endTime":274.48,"body":"So there were many times when I"},{"startTime":272.28,"endTime":274.48,"body":"was like, why am I doing this?"},{"startTime":274.48,"endTime":275.89,"body":"This doesn't really make sense."},{"startTime":276.04,"endTime":278.925,"body":"But you couldn't let yourself you"},{"startTime":276.04,"endTime":278.925,"body":"couldn't let the investors down anymore"},{"startTime":279.115,"endTime":280.615,"body":"and I didn't view them as investors."},{"startTime":280.615,"endTime":283.345,"body":"I viewed them as friends that"},{"startTime":280.615,"endTime":283.345,"body":"helped me out to get started."},{"startTime":283.495,"endTime":284.915,"body":"Now that's number one."},{"startTime":284.915,"endTime":288.575,"body":"Number two the fear of"},{"startTime":284.915,"endTime":288.575,"body":"failure is huge, right?"},{"startTime":288.605,"endTime":290.985,"body":"Because what you're doing is"},{"startTime":288.605,"endTime":290.985,"body":"you're putting yourself out there."},{"startTime":290.985,"endTime":292.245,"body":"There's a lot of emotions."},{"startTime":292.395,"endTime":295.595,"body":"And what happens when you're,"},{"startTime":292.395,"endTime":295.595,"body":"you're, you fall flat on your face?"},{"startTime":295.745,"endTime":298.285,"body":"That disappointment is significant."},{"startTime":298.565,"endTime":300.515,"body":"You have to scrape yourself"},{"startTime":298.565,"endTime":300.515,"body":"up from the ground."},{"startTime":300.525,"endTime":302.415,"body":"You have to build your own ego back up."},{"startTime":302.745,"endTime":303.785,"body":"And what, to do what?"},{"startTime":303.795,"endTime":305.225,"body":"To go back to a previous job?"},{"startTime":305.225,"endTime":306.525,"body":"I mean, that's tough, right?"},{"startTime":306.525,"endTime":310.015,"body":"So there's a lot relying on you"},{"startTime":306.525,"endTime":310.015,"body":"because again, you're seeing yourself"},{"startTime":310.095,"endTime":311.825,"body":"in your own shed of light, right?"},{"startTime":311.975,"endTime":315.095,"body":"But then others see you"},{"startTime":311.975,"endTime":315.095,"body":"as the successful person."},{"startTime":315.115,"endTime":319.275,"body":"Oh my God, you just slapped the"},{"startTime":315.115,"endTime":319.275,"body":"CEO title to your LinkedIn profile."},{"startTime":319.435,"endTime":321.905,"body":"You must be, you must"},{"startTime":319.435,"endTime":321.905,"body":"be a world conqueror."},{"startTime":321.905,"endTime":323.345,"body":"It doesn't happen that way."},{"startTime":323.495,"endTime":327.955,"body":"You know, and I think the third"},{"startTime":323.495,"endTime":327.955,"body":"one to me, what constantly kept"},{"startTime":327.995,"endTime":330.645,"body":"me up at night is my own team."},{"startTime":330.795,"endTime":335.125,"body":"When you run your own team, what I"},{"startTime":330.795,"endTime":335.125,"body":"yes, I could fail, I'd figure it out."},{"startTime":335.275,"endTime":336.955,"body":"But I didn't want my team to fail."},{"startTime":337.105,"endTime":340.105,"body":"Having that on my conscious that"},{"startTime":337.105,"endTime":340.105,"body":"they would need to look for jobs,"},{"startTime":340.445,"endTime":344.595,"body":"that their families would be"},{"startTime":340.445,"endTime":344.595,"body":"impacted, is, is probably something"},{"startTime":344.605,"endTime":346.445,"body":"that bothered me a lot as well."},{"startTime":346.595,"endTime":349.875,"body":"Especially because I had good guys"},{"startTime":346.595,"endTime":349.875,"body":"on the team, good gals on the team."},{"startTime":350.025,"endTime":355.735,"body":"And I always took that to heart my"},{"startTime":350.025,"endTime":355.735,"body":"failure was failing them, not vice versa."},{"startTime":355.885,"endTime":358.495,"body":"So, I know a lot of people"},{"startTime":355.885,"endTime":358.495,"body":"don't think that way."},{"startTime":358.505,"endTime":361.295,"body":"The loyalty factor right now..."},{"startTime":361.445,"endTime":364.935,"body":"Is different than it used to"},{"startTime":361.445,"endTime":364.935,"body":"be about 30 years ago or so."},{"startTime":365.085,"endTime":368.055,"body":"But you know, certain"},{"startTime":365.085,"endTime":368.055,"body":"principles are are still there."},{"startTime":368.205,"endTime":368.875,"body":"That's awesome."},{"startTime":368.95,"endTime":375.425,"body":"There were two things in your story that"},{"startTime":368.95,"endTime":375.425,"body":"I honed in on one was the difficulties"},{"startTime":375.445,"endTime":380.555,"body":"in coming out of building things for a"},{"startTime":375.445,"endTime":380.555,"body":"living and coming into product management"},{"startTime":380.805,"endTime":381.974,"body":"that's one, that's one path."},{"startTime":382.05,"endTime":383.1,"body":"The other one is..."},{"startTime":383.25,"endTime":387.48,"body":"You had to learn coming off of"},{"startTime":383.25,"endTime":387.48,"body":"development teams and . Now you're"},{"startTime":387.48,"endTime":388.4,"body":"at the center of everything."},{"startTime":388.55,"endTime":393.86,"body":"You have to learn that each persona you're"},{"startTime":388.55,"endTime":393.86,"body":"interacting with, you have to change"},{"startTime":393.86,"endTime":397.935,"body":"your communication style , to really"},{"startTime":393.86,"endTime":397.935,"body":"make an impact or to get through to that"},{"startTime":397.945,"endTime":402.705,"body":"different individual or team or a business"},{"startTime":397.945,"endTime":402.705,"body":"or whatever, like I'm real interested in"},{"startTime":402.865,"endTime":407.445,"body":"first of all, how you even became like"},{"startTime":402.865,"endTime":407.445,"body":"self aware enough that you, oh, oh, I have"},{"startTime":407.445,"endTime":410.865,"body":"to make this change in order to make the"},{"startTime":407.445,"endTime":410.865,"body":"most impact  to elevate my communication."},{"startTime":411.165,"endTime":412.185,"body":"And then how you actually."},{"startTime":412.335,"endTime":416.405,"body":"One about learning the skill and changing"},{"startTime":412.335,"endTime":416.405,"body":"your communication method because I I"},{"startTime":416.415,"endTime":419.685,"body":"think of lots of people I've interacted"},{"startTime":416.415,"endTime":419.685,"body":"with on development teams that Number"},{"startTime":419.685,"endTime":423.574,"body":"one they never even became self aware"},{"startTime":419.685,"endTime":423.574,"body":"enough that they knew that this was a"},{"startTime":423.575,"endTime":428.228,"body":"shortcoming and number two Where would"},{"startTime":423.575,"endTime":428.228,"body":"where do you even go to learn this skill?"},{"startTime":428.278,"endTime":428.818,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":428.938,"endTime":432.648,"body":"I think observation and mentorship"},{"startTime":428.938,"endTime":432.648,"body":"are the two critical things."},{"startTime":432.798,"endTime":434.398,"body":"Now, there's a funny story."},{"startTime":434.548,"endTime":438.648,"body":"Here I am working in, as a"},{"startTime":434.548,"endTime":438.648,"body":"developer, maybe in the third"},{"startTime":438.648,"endTime":440.178,"body":"or fourth year of my career."},{"startTime":440.328,"endTime":443.308,"body":"You know, must have been early 2000s."},{"startTime":443.458,"endTime":445.248,"body":"And we have a company picnic."},{"startTime":445.398,"endTime":449.188,"body":"And in this company picnic, the entire"},{"startTime":445.398,"endTime":449.188,"body":"company is like 250 people show up."},{"startTime":449.338,"endTime":451.878,"body":"And I, and the CEO sits"},{"startTime":449.338,"endTime":451.878,"body":"right across from me."},{"startTime":452.028,"endTime":452.788,"body":"Now, I..."},{"startTime":452.938,"endTime":453.978,"body":"Poo my pants, right?"},{"startTime":453.978,"endTime":455.758,"body":"Oh my god, a CEO sitting in front of me."},{"startTime":455.908,"endTime":457.878,"body":"And I, I, I was quiet."},{"startTime":457.918,"endTime":459.218,"body":"I didn't say a single word."},{"startTime":459.228,"endTime":460.983,"body":"I mean, I mean, this is a CEO, right?"},{"startTime":460.993,"endTime":461.563,"body":"And I'm like this..."},{"startTime":461.713,"endTime":462.953,"body":"You know, junior developer."},{"startTime":463.103,"endTime":466.333,"body":"And there was something, and I"},{"startTime":463.103,"endTime":466.333,"body":"wanted to ask a question, and I"},{"startTime":466.343,"endTime":468.643,"body":"said, Mr., Mr., and his last name."},{"startTime":468.793,"endTime":469.843,"body":"And everybody chuckled."},{"startTime":469.993,"endTime":471.813,"body":"He's like, did you"},{"startTime":469.993,"endTime":471.813,"body":"hear, did you hear Bill?"},{"startTime":471.813,"endTime":473.013,"body":"He called you Mr."},{"startTime":473.303,"endTime":477.773,"body":"And that was the funniest thing ever"},{"startTime":473.303,"endTime":477.773,"body":"because the amount of respect for"},{"startTime":477.773,"endTime":479.783,"body":"somebody in that position was so huge."},{"startTime":479.933,"endTime":483.033,"body":"You know, here I am just a"},{"startTime":479.933,"endTime":483.033,"body":"few years out of college."},{"startTime":483.183,"endTime":486.143,"body":"It's very different now I"},{"startTime":483.183,"endTime":486.143,"body":"guess maybe that's just how we"},{"startTime":486.143,"endTime":487.453,"body":"were raised as a generation."},{"startTime":487.603,"endTime":489.863,"body":"Right now, people feel a"},{"startTime":487.603,"endTime":489.863,"body":"lot more comfortable talking"},{"startTime":489.863,"endTime":490.913,"body":"to pretty much any level."},{"startTime":490.923,"endTime":492.593,"body":"For me, that, that had to be acquired."},{"startTime":492.623,"endTime":495.453,"body":"Maybe, maybe there's a little bit"},{"startTime":492.623,"endTime":495.453,"body":"that has to do with my background"},{"startTime":495.463,"endTime":496.853,"body":"being immigrant, obviously."},{"startTime":497.133,"endTime":497.413,"body":"But."},{"startTime":497.563,"endTime":503.443,"body":"When I got to lead the company I was"},{"startTime":497.563,"endTime":503.443,"body":"shy asking the right questions, kind"},{"startTime":503.443,"endTime":505.533,"body":"of going back from the background."},{"startTime":505.623,"endTime":510.463,"body":"And my mentor in sales by the"},{"startTime":505.623,"endTime":510.463,"body":"name of Rich Geis, unfortunately"},{"startTime":510.463,"endTime":513.983,"body":"he passed away, which was a huge"},{"startTime":510.463,"endTime":513.983,"body":"shock, but he was a sales trainer"},{"startTime":514.053,"endTime":516.873,"body":"and, but he taught me beyond sales."},{"startTime":516.953,"endTime":522.458,"body":"And one of the things he said, he"},{"startTime":516.953,"endTime":522.458,"body":"said, Don't take anything big about it."},{"startTime":522.628,"endTime":523.748,"body":"You're a business person."},{"startTime":523.898,"endTime":525.518,"body":"The other person's a business person."},{"startTime":525.668,"endTime":528.668,"body":"You're just two people"},{"startTime":525.668,"endTime":528.668,"body":"having a conversation."},{"startTime":528.818,"endTime":532.318,"body":"You know, don't treat it like"},{"startTime":528.818,"endTime":532.318,"body":"you have to lift somebody up, or"},{"startTime":532.318,"endTime":534.228,"body":"they have to lower yourself down."},{"startTime":534.528,"endTime":536.108,"body":"You are on the same level."},{"startTime":536.118,"endTime":537.628,"body":"You are both business people."},{"startTime":537.838,"endTime":540.058,"body":"True, that person may be"},{"startTime":537.838,"endTime":540.058,"body":"running a larger company."},{"startTime":540.338,"endTime":541.618,"body":"You're running a smaller one."},{"startTime":541.768,"endTime":542.638,"body":"Doesn't matter."},{"startTime":542.918,"endTime":545.558,"body":"You're both people solving a"},{"startTime":542.918,"endTime":545.558,"body":"different business problem."},{"startTime":545.708,"endTime":551.588,"body":"Was music to my ears, so I started,"},{"startTime":545.708,"endTime":551.588,"body":"actually early on I would craft titles"},{"startTime":551.738,"endTime":555.058,"body":"for whoever I needed to communicate to,"},{"startTime":551.738,"endTime":555.058,"body":"and that's something you have to do."},{"startTime":555.398,"endTime":557.288,"body":"If you talk to a VP, you better be a VP."},{"startTime":557.438,"endTime":559.038,"body":"Cause they're not going to talk to a CEO."},{"startTime":559.288,"endTime":561.668,"body":"If you're a director, they'll"},{"startTime":559.288,"endTime":561.668,"body":"talk to another director."},{"startTime":561.668,"endTime":562.538,"body":"You're on the same level."},{"startTime":562.548,"endTime":566.128,"body":"So there's something subjective"},{"startTime":562.548,"endTime":566.128,"body":"about these things, but you kind"},{"startTime":566.128,"endTime":569.548,"body":"of have to pull, pull any, any"},{"startTime":566.128,"endTime":569.548,"body":"trick you can get out of your hat"},{"startTime":569.548,"endTime":570.888,"body":"to get the conversations going."},{"startTime":571.128,"endTime":573.458,"body":"But later on all it is"},{"startTime":571.128,"endTime":573.458,"body":"is just mutual respect."},{"startTime":573.458,"endTime":574.568,"body":"You all have a job to do."},{"startTime":574.718,"endTime":578.198,"body":"And you know, the, the sooner"},{"startTime":574.718,"endTime":578.198,"body":"you feel like you're the same"},{"startTime":578.198,"endTime":580.763,"body":"level and the sooner you try to."},{"startTime":581.093,"endTime":583.743,"body":"Communicate at the same pace,"},{"startTime":581.093,"endTime":583.743,"body":"the easier it's gonna be."},{"startTime":583.868,"endTime":586.788,"body":"People that do that are rare,"},{"startTime":583.868,"endTime":586.788,"body":"first of all, we, I think"},{"startTime":586.788,"endTime":588.018,"body":"we can agree on that, right?"},{"startTime":588.058,"endTime":591.548,"body":"Coming from a development background,"},{"startTime":588.058,"endTime":591.548,"body":"and being able to communicate at that"},{"startTime":591.548,"endTime":595.388,"body":"level, to your point, being self aware"},{"startTime":591.548,"endTime":595.388,"body":"that you need to change your style, to"},{"startTime":595.388,"endTime":597.978,"body":"suit the the occasion, so to speak, right?"},{"startTime":598.128,"endTime":601.923,"body":"And the second thing is how do you"},{"startTime":598.128,"endTime":601.923,"body":"hone those skills because you don't"},{"startTime":601.923,"endTime":603.383,"body":"practice them, you don't learn them?"},{"startTime":603.713,"endTime":606.113,"body":"You, you never taught those in"},{"startTime":603.713,"endTime":606.113,"body":"your role, no matter what your"},{"startTime":606.113,"endTime":606.383,"body":"role is."},{"startTime":606.383,"endTime":606.473,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":606.473,"endTime":610.383,"body":"Well, where, where I was gonna go"},{"startTime":606.473,"endTime":610.383,"body":"is, I was gonna say sponsorship,"},{"startTime":610.383,"endTime":614.163,"body":"I work with a lot of product managers"},{"startTime":610.383,"endTime":614.163,"body":"who it's it's their first product"},{"startTime":614.163,"endTime":617.663,"body":"management job, role slash job, right?"},{"startTime":617.863,"endTime":621.693,"body":"And the, the, the thing that I will"},{"startTime":617.863,"endTime":621.693,"body":"always coach them to say is you need"},{"startTime":621.693,"endTime":626.173,"body":"to find a sponsor in the business"},{"startTime":621.693,"endTime":626.173,"body":"that can get your foot in the door"},{"startTime":626.383,"endTime":629.603,"body":"because like, well, welcome to doing,"},{"startTime":626.383,"endTime":629.603,"body":"you do sales now, but you've never"},{"startTime":629.603,"endTime":630.733,"body":"done this in your career before."},{"startTime":630.953,"endTime":631.863,"body":"Now you do sales."},{"startTime":632.083,"endTime":636.563,"body":"In the realm of a startup, it's pretty"},{"startTime":632.083,"endTime":636.563,"body":"clear that you don't sell things."},{"startTime":636.713,"endTime":640.783,"body":"You don't get customers to"},{"startTime":636.713,"endTime":640.783,"body":"consistently use your product."},{"startTime":641.073,"endTime":643.813,"body":"There is a chance that in the"},{"startTime":641.073,"endTime":643.813,"body":"future you're going to roll off"},{"startTime":643.913,"endTime":645.083,"body":"your entire development team."},{"startTime":645.163,"endTime":648.193,"body":"You have to, you have to, you"},{"startTime":645.163,"endTime":648.193,"body":"have to fire coworkers basically."},{"startTime":648.353,"endTime":651.788,"body":"Maybe you're not firing them, but the"},{"startTime":648.353,"endTime":651.788,"body":"company will the company has to run out"},{"startTime":651.808,"endTime":654.318,"body":"and make a sale to maintain the payroll."},{"startTime":654.578,"endTime":657.568,"body":"Basically, most of these product"},{"startTime":654.578,"endTime":657.568,"body":"managers have never been in"},{"startTime":657.578,"endTime":658.518,"body":"that spot in their career."},{"startTime":658.818,"endTime":660.868,"body":"Maybe this is like a"},{"startTime":658.818,"endTime":660.868,"body":"generational thing or whatever."},{"startTime":660.868,"endTime":663.048,"body":"This is like early in my career,"},{"startTime":660.868,"endTime":663.048,"body":"this is the way the company was."},{"startTime":663.198,"endTime":663.928,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":663.948,"endTime":668.088,"body":"But the point is, partner with these"},{"startTime":663.948,"endTime":668.088,"body":"people, ride along with them you"},{"startTime":668.088,"endTime":670.858,"body":"know, be involved in their world"},{"startTime":668.088,"endTime":670.858,"body":"and understand what they go through."},{"startTime":671.078,"endTime":672.778,"body":"So you can start absorbing."},{"startTime":672.928,"endTime":673.968,"body":"Some of that skill"},{"startTime":674.103,"endTime":676.183,"body":"I can, I can, I can"},{"startTime":674.103,"endTime":676.183,"body":"segue here a little bit."},{"startTime":676.203,"endTime":678.753,"body":"I mean you know, it goes"},{"startTime":676.203,"endTime":678.753,"body":"alongside of what you said."},{"startTime":678.833,"endTime":684.493,"body":"I always wished that I would have somebody"},{"startTime":678.833,"endTime":684.493,"body":"that I could be a right hand man of."},{"startTime":684.643,"endTime":689.483,"body":"Unfortunately, I never found anybody"},{"startTime":684.643,"endTime":689.483,"body":"that I could be a right hand man of."},{"startTime":689.633,"endTime":691.463,"body":"And I would have been"},{"startTime":689.633,"endTime":691.463,"body":"the best right hand man."},{"startTime":691.613,"endTime":694.673,"body":"And I would have picked up and"},{"startTime":691.613,"endTime":694.673,"body":"learned a lot from that person."},{"startTime":695.003,"endTime":701.093,"body":"But I just never found the match and"},{"startTime":695.003,"endTime":701.093,"body":"when we launched the business I became"},{"startTime":701.383,"endTime":703.643,"body":"essentially the front runner, right?"},{"startTime":703.733,"endTime":708.463,"body":"So I had my own right hand man to help me"},{"startTime":703.733,"endTime":708.463,"body":"out, but there was nobody I could follow."},{"startTime":708.803,"endTime":712.783,"body":"And that makes a huge difference"},{"startTime":708.803,"endTime":712.783,"body":"because there's a lot of companies"},{"startTime":712.783,"endTime":716.263,"body":"and a lot of startups that are"},{"startTime":712.783,"endTime":716.263,"body":"founded by multiple tech founders."},{"startTime":716.413,"endTime":720.173,"body":"But not a lot of them can, can"},{"startTime":716.413,"endTime":720.173,"body":"get out of that and somebody"},{"startTime":720.183,"endTime":723.473,"body":"stepping up to be running the show."},{"startTime":723.623,"endTime":727.783,"body":"But that's a very unique skill set for"},{"startTime":723.623,"endTime":727.783,"body":"an engineer to, to know how to sell,"},{"startTime":728.103,"endTime":730.523,"body":"know how to market, know how to talk."},{"startTime":730.673,"endTime":731.703,"body":"Beyond just."},{"startTime":731.893,"endTime":735.213,"body":"engineering and beyond the"},{"startTime":731.893,"endTime":735.213,"body":"product, that's, that's huge."},{"startTime":735.363,"endTime":740.503,"body":"An engineer that understands the culture"},{"startTime":735.363,"endTime":740.503,"body":"of sales, the culture of marketing"},{"startTime":740.653,"endTime":742.803,"body":"that's, that's, that's huge difference."},{"startTime":742.803,"endTime":744.793,"body":"I mean, there are different people."},{"startTime":744.943,"endTime":746.103,"body":"We're all built different."},{"startTime":746.103,"endTime":747.253,"body":"We're all wired different."},{"startTime":747.553,"endTime":751.713,"body":"We have different motivations and"},{"startTime":747.553,"endTime":751.713,"body":"to learn how to motivate everybody"},{"startTime":751.713,"endTime":753.373,"body":"and how to tie them all together."},{"startTime":753.523,"endTime":755.803,"body":"I Think a lot of times it's"},{"startTime":753.523,"endTime":755.803,"body":"not even skill, it's luck."},{"startTime":755.953,"endTime":760.343,"body":"Certainly the opportunities are"},{"startTime":755.953,"endTime":760.343,"body":"not there for people to gravitate"},{"startTime":760.493,"endTime":762.673,"body":"up into other areas like this."},{"startTime":762.823,"endTime":767.343,"body":"I, I don't know, other than like maybe"},{"startTime":762.823,"endTime":767.343,"body":"these companies that do the, the 12"},{"startTime":767.363,"endTime":771.643,"body":"month round robin type of thing where"},{"startTime":767.363,"endTime":771.643,"body":"a newly minted person comes in and"},{"startTime":771.643,"endTime":776.218,"body":"they're just seconded each of the"},{"startTime":771.643,"endTime":776.218,"body":"areas for a month or two at a time, but"},{"startTime":776.218,"endTime":779.178,"body":"even that's just superficial because"},{"startTime":776.218,"endTime":779.178,"body":"you don't have long enough to develop"},{"startTime":779.178,"endTime":782.978,"body":"a relationship with anyone where"},{"startTime":779.178,"endTime":782.978,"body":"they can be your mentor or sponsor."},{"startTime":782.998,"endTime":783.318,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":783.598,"endTime":785.718,"body":"But yeah, companies don't"},{"startTime":783.598,"endTime":785.718,"body":"really, they stay, they"},{"startTime":785.868,"endTime":788.308,"body":"compartmentalize people into roles"},{"startTime":788.418,"endTime":790.588,"body":"here's the interesting"},{"startTime":788.418,"endTime":790.588,"body":"thing about rotations."},{"startTime":790.738,"endTime":793.018,"body":"When you're rotated to"},{"startTime":790.738,"endTime":793.018,"body":"observe, that's one thing."},{"startTime":793.168,"endTime":798.298,"body":"When you're rotated and you're allowed to"},{"startTime":793.168,"endTime":798.298,"body":"make decisions, that's a totally other."},{"startTime":798.448,"endTime":801.598,"body":"You see rotations based on"},{"startTime":798.448,"endTime":801.598,"body":"observation and being a helper."},{"startTime":801.748,"endTime":803.968,"body":"You don't see rotations when"},{"startTime":801.748,"endTime":803.968,"body":"you're allowed to take charge."},{"startTime":803.978,"endTime":804.758,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":804.958,"endTime":805.288,"body":"Those are the ones."},{"startTime":805.288,"endTime":808.488,"body":"So if I was in your shoes"},{"startTime":805.288,"endTime":808.488,"body":"type of conversations,"},{"startTime":808.488,"endTime":809.948,"body":"right, I would be doing this."},{"startTime":810.499,"endTime":813.599,"body":"If more people had that opportunity,"},{"startTime":810.499,"endTime":813.599,"body":"I think they would learn and"},{"startTime":813.599,"endTime":816.229,"body":"start to respect what the other,"},{"startTime":813.599,"endTime":816.229,"body":"what the other side is doing."},{"startTime":816.309,"endTime":816.489,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":816.749,"endTime":820.279,"body":"And we had this conversation"},{"startTime":816.749,"endTime":820.279,"body":"earlier that engineers generally"},{"startTime":820.429,"endTime":822.569,"body":"is an underappreciated class."},{"startTime":822.719,"endTime":823.329,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":823.649,"endTime":828.139,"body":"Well, think about any company event"},{"startTime":823.649,"endTime":828.139,"body":"who gets most of the celebrations."},{"startTime":828.139,"endTime":828.869,"body":"The accolades."},{"startTime":828.899,"endTime":830.159,"body":"The sales, right?"},{"startTime":830.309,"endTime":830.439,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":830.469,"endTime":831.689,"body":"The next one is the marketing."},{"startTime":831.839,"endTime":836.539,"body":"Worst case scenario, implementation"},{"startTime":831.839,"endTime":836.539,"body":"team, customers, customer support, right?"},{"startTime":836.839,"endTime":841.549,"body":"The engineers, we only get the heads"},{"startTime":836.839,"endTime":841.549,"body":"up and by our immediate manager, if"},{"startTime":841.549,"endTime":843.339,"body":"we solve a critical issue, right?"},{"startTime":843.339,"endTime":846.659,"body":"But something needs to really"},{"startTime":843.339,"endTime":846.659,"body":"just be completely blown up."},{"startTime":846.979,"endTime":850.389,"body":"And we have to save the day and"},{"startTime":846.979,"endTime":850.389,"body":"only then do we get a pat on the"},{"startTime":850.389,"endTime":852.209,"body":"shoulder, go, okay, good job, right?"},{"startTime":852.269,"endTime":853.039,"body":"Yeah, and"},{"startTime":853.109,"endTime":857.729,"body":"also assuming that , your leader"},{"startTime":853.109,"endTime":857.729,"body":"in that segment of the business"},{"startTime":857.879,"endTime":862.414,"body":"has the forethought to include"},{"startTime":857.879,"endTime":862.414,"body":"you not just saying like, I solved"},{"startTime":862.434,"endTime":864.404,"body":"this issue or my team, right?"},{"startTime":864.544,"endTime":865.684,"body":"And it just hides the name."},{"startTime":865.834,"endTime":867.524,"body":"spEcial thanks goes to, right?"},{"startTime":867.674,"endTime":868.244,"body":"Yeah, you're"},{"startTime":868.244,"endTime":868.474,"body":"right."},{"startTime":868.474,"endTime":871.314,"body":"Often it's like the"},{"startTime":868.474,"endTime":871.314,"body":"team I led solved this."},{"startTime":871.324,"endTime":873.764,"body":"So the focus is on that person always."},{"startTime":873.774,"endTime":874.384,"body":"Exactly right."},{"startTime":874.534,"endTime":875.164,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":875.164,"endTime":876.534,"body":"That's what I call master leadership."},{"startTime":876.564,"endTime":878.094,"body":"That's the opposite of servant leadership."},{"startTime":878.244,"endTime":880.424,"body":"But that's where startups are unique."},{"startTime":880.464,"endTime":882.944,"body":"Because let's say you"},{"startTime":880.464,"endTime":882.944,"body":"close that big customer."},{"startTime":883.094,"endTime":884.554,"body":"You're 20, 30 people."},{"startTime":884.704,"endTime":886.264,"body":"You're going to get your"},{"startTime":884.704,"endTime":886.264,"body":"whole team together."},{"startTime":886.594,"endTime":887.804,"body":"You guys are all awesome."},{"startTime":887.954,"endTime":889.414,"body":"I couldn't do this without you."},{"startTime":889.714,"endTime":893.014,"body":"I mean, that's where the whole"},{"startTime":889.714,"endTime":893.014,"body":"culture is, is completely different."},{"startTime":893.344,"endTime":896.024,"body":"You go there because you actually"},{"startTime":893.344,"endTime":896.024,"body":"feel like you're making a difference."},{"startTime":896.024,"endTime":900.244,"body":"I mean, look, for everybody that worked"},{"startTime":896.024,"endTime":900.244,"body":"in a corporation, or and was a tech guy,"},{"startTime":900.394,"endTime":902.544,"body":"your software may not have ever been used."},{"startTime":902.694,"endTime":906.194,"body":"You know, there could be years when you"},{"startTime":902.694,"endTime":906.194,"body":"were working on something, sight unseen,"},{"startTime":906.344,"endTime":910.484,"body":"and maybe the problem was interesting,"},{"startTime":906.344,"endTime":910.484,"body":"maybe not so much, but a lot of times,"},{"startTime":910.634,"endTime":912.374,"body":"you don't have that level of exposure."},{"startTime":912.384,"endTime":914.594,"body":"Here, you actually feel like"},{"startTime":912.384,"endTime":914.594,"body":"you're making a difference."},{"startTime":914.744,"endTime":914.934,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":914.934,"endTime":915.874,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":916.024,"endTime":919.764,"body":"You know, I think the structure is not"},{"startTime":916.024,"endTime":919.764,"body":"so hierarchical for those startups, so"},{"startTime":919.764,"endTime":924.034,"body":"it's easier to have the Connection points"},{"startTime":919.764,"endTime":924.034,"body":"with everybody and leadership, right?"},{"startTime":924.164,"endTime":925.574,"body":"Flat organization."},{"startTime":925.724,"endTime":929.464,"body":"Let me let me pivot  to, you're"},{"startTime":925.724,"endTime":929.464,"body":"moving to product management."},{"startTime":929.589,"endTime":932.879,"body":"Since I am a product manager, I will"},{"startTime":929.589,"endTime":932.879,"body":"bring up the product management centric"},{"startTime":933.219,"endTime":937.409,"body":"point about finding difficulty in"},{"startTime":933.219,"endTime":937.409,"body":"product management by pointing out"},{"startTime":937.769,"endTime":942.519,"body":"it's either either starting with"},{"startTime":937.769,"endTime":942.519,"body":"developing things and backing"},{"startTime":942.519,"endTime":946.509,"body":"into your strategy or starting"},{"startTime":942.519,"endTime":946.509,"body":"with without a product vision by"},{"startTime":946.519,"endTime":950.549,"body":"just starting by starting and then"},{"startTime":946.519,"endTime":950.549,"body":"backing into your product vision"},{"startTime":950.749,"endTime":953.909,"body":"You had strong opinions on"},{"startTime":950.749,"endTime":953.909,"body":"sometimes you just start and then"},{"startTime":953.909,"endTime":957.109,"body":"you figure out your strategy and"},{"startTime":953.909,"endTime":957.109,"body":"your vision and all that stuff."},{"startTime":957.259,"endTime":958.659,"body":"So, good question."},{"startTime":958.809,"endTime":960.399,"body":"I like all my good"},{"startTime":958.809,"endTime":960.399,"body":"questions are in the form of"},{"startTime":960.419,"endTime":960.839,"body":"statements."},{"startTime":960.939,"endTime":961.719,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":961.719,"endTime":963.169,"body":"It's a good question in"},{"startTime":961.719,"endTime":963.169,"body":"the form of statement."},{"startTime":963.249,"endTime":964.469,"body":"So here's a funny thing."},{"startTime":964.539,"endTime":967.589,"body":"When somebody said, after my"},{"startTime":964.539,"endTime":967.589,"body":"departure from the startup,"},{"startTime":967.589,"endTime":970.119,"body":"somebody said, well, Alex, are you"},{"startTime":967.589,"endTime":970.119,"body":"going to launch something else?"},{"startTime":970.269,"endTime":971.359,"body":"And I said, you know what?"},{"startTime":971.659,"endTime":974.899,"body":"I'll consider this definitely,"},{"startTime":971.659,"endTime":974.899,"body":"but I think I'm going to go"},{"startTime":974.899,"endTime":976.779,"body":"with an easier problem to solve."},{"startTime":976.929,"endTime":977.209,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":977.229,"endTime":981.179,"body":"Now, background wise for anybody"},{"startTime":977.229,"endTime":981.179,"body":"listening my startup was an insurance,"},{"startTime":981.309,"endTime":982.969,"body":"not the space you want to be in."},{"startTime":983.119,"endTime":986.109,"body":"If you want to be moving"},{"startTime":983.119,"endTime":986.109,"body":"quickly it's a particular space."},{"startTime":986.109,"endTime":987.349,"body":"It's tough to break into."},{"startTime":987.399,"endTime":988.759,"body":"There's so many different challenges."},{"startTime":988.909,"endTime":991.289,"body":"But I think from the product"},{"startTime":988.909,"endTime":991.289,"body":"perspective, I don't think there's"},{"startTime":991.289,"endTime":992.619,"body":"anything correct that I did."},{"startTime":992.769,"endTime":994.599,"body":"I think there was a lot of gut feel."},{"startTime":994.749,"endTime":996.339,"body":"A lot of it was gut feel."},{"startTime":996.489,"endTime":998.899,"body":"I always looked at features this way."},{"startTime":998.899,"endTime":1002.939,"body":"I mean, when you're small enough you're"},{"startTime":998.899,"endTime":1002.939,"body":"obviously building a core functionality"},{"startTime":1002.939,"endTime":1004.649,"body":"and you're, you're delivering it."},{"startTime":1004.799,"endTime":1005.939,"body":"But then what happens?"},{"startTime":1006.089,"endTime":1010.079,"body":"If you can't stop, if you stop,"},{"startTime":1006.089,"endTime":1010.079,"body":"you're losing your marketing edge."},{"startTime":1010.279,"endTime":1013.619,"body":"And if you lose your marketing edge,"},{"startTime":1010.279,"endTime":1013.619,"body":"the big giants are going to pass you."},{"startTime":1013.619,"endTime":1015.229,"body":"And people copied us."},{"startTime":1015.379,"endTime":1016.979,"body":"You know, I built the competitors,"},{"startTime":1017.054,"endTime":1020.244,"body":"I spoke to the number one leader"},{"startTime":1017.054,"endTime":1020.244,"body":"on, in a space we were in."},{"startTime":1020.574,"endTime":1022.604,"body":"They controlled 85 percent of the market."},{"startTime":1022.944,"endTime":1025.894,"body":"And when they found out about what"},{"startTime":1022.944,"endTime":1025.894,"body":"we were doing, they dangled a lot"},{"startTime":1025.894,"endTime":1028.974,"body":"of like Hey, let's integrate let's"},{"startTime":1025.894,"endTime":1028.974,"body":"type of thing, but they wanted"},{"startTime":1028.974,"endTime":1030.354,"body":"to play around with what we had."},{"startTime":1030.354,"endTime":1033.054,"body":"And me being an idiot,"},{"startTime":1030.354,"endTime":1033.054,"body":"I just gave it to them."},{"startTime":1033.129,"endTime":1036.119,"body":". And then before you know, it is a"},{"startTime":1033.129,"endTime":1036.119,"body":"conversation that goes like this."},{"startTime":1036.139,"endTime":1036.809,"body":"Hey, you know what?"},{"startTime":1036.809,"endTime":1038.529,"body":"We decided not to go with your solution."},{"startTime":1038.529,"endTime":1038.879,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":1039.029,"endTime":1040.919,"body":"And then we find out they"},{"startTime":1039.029,"endTime":1040.919,"body":"have a competing offering."},{"startTime":1041.229,"endTime":1044.359,"body":"So while they were playing around,"},{"startTime":1041.229,"endTime":1044.359,"body":"they were actually developing."},{"startTime":1044.539,"endTime":1046.019,"body":"People do steal ideas."},{"startTime":1046.159,"endTime":1048.039,"body":"So what do you defend in your ideas?"},{"startTime":1048.049,"endTime":1049.409,"body":"You defend by."},{"startTime":1049.719,"endTime":1051.829,"body":"Thinking farther, right?"},{"startTime":1052.079,"endTime":1056.579,"body":"So people can copy what you have now,"},{"startTime":1052.079,"endTime":1056.579,"body":"but they can't copy your thoughts,"},{"startTime":1056.579,"endTime":1061.139,"body":"your dreams, your innovations, your"},{"startTime":1056.579,"endTime":1061.139,"body":"concept of what you'll have tomorrow."},{"startTime":1061.289,"endTime":1064.369,"body":"So the challenge is if you're building"},{"startTime":1061.289,"endTime":1064.369,"body":"a product that already exists and"},{"startTime":1064.369,"endTime":1065.639,"body":"you're just making a better version."},{"startTime":1065.789,"endTime":1069.409,"body":"It's easy, but when you're building"},{"startTime":1065.789,"endTime":1069.409,"body":"something new, you can't really stop."},{"startTime":1069.429,"endTime":1071.879,"body":"You have to invest in things"},{"startTime":1069.429,"endTime":1071.879,"body":"that you're going to do tomorrow."},{"startTime":1071.909,"endTime":1073.399,"body":"And that's a lot of gut feel."},{"startTime":1073.599,"endTime":1075.649,"body":"There is no data that says"},{"startTime":1073.599,"endTime":1075.649,"body":"somebody is going to use it."},{"startTime":1075.869,"endTime":1077.619,"body":"There's no data that says"},{"startTime":1075.869,"endTime":1077.619,"body":"somebody is going to need it."},{"startTime":1077.629,"endTime":1078.619,"body":"You have to place a bet."},{"startTime":1078.769,"endTime":1081.399,"body":"And we have this, this talk inside"},{"startTime":1078.769,"endTime":1081.399,"body":"of the company all the time."},{"startTime":1081.409,"endTime":1083.849,"body":"You know, do we concentrate on"},{"startTime":1081.409,"endTime":1083.849,"body":"this feature or that feature?"},{"startTime":1083.999,"endTime":1087.209,"body":"I can't say we always made the"},{"startTime":1083.999,"endTime":1087.209,"body":"right decision, but in the end,"},{"startTime":1087.339,"endTime":1089.779,"body":"the exit proved that we did, right?"},{"startTime":1089.779,"endTime":1094.149,"body":"So we built a a very good"},{"startTime":1089.779,"endTime":1094.149,"body":"platform for visual collaboration,"},{"startTime":1094.149,"endTime":1095.539,"body":"documentation, and insurance."},{"startTime":1095.689,"endTime":1099.079,"body":"And that was powerful, that"},{"startTime":1095.689,"endTime":1099.079,"body":"was recognized, and we had"},{"startTime":1099.079,"endTime":1100.369,"body":"some big name customers."},{"startTime":1100.519,"endTime":1103.149,"body":"And that proved it's worth, but early on."},{"startTime":1103.299,"endTime":1105.529,"body":"Nobody knew it was going to"},{"startTime":1103.299,"endTime":1105.529,"body":"be, it was going to be correct."},{"startTime":1105.529,"endTime":1106.439,"body":"It's a gut feel."},{"startTime":1106.609,"endTime":1109.269,"body":"You have some indicators that"},{"startTime":1106.609,"endTime":1109.269,"body":"could be false indicators"},{"startTime":1109.419,"endTime":1110.409,"body":"where they could be positive."},{"startTime":1110.559,"endTime":1113.259,"body":"And just because somebody says, I like it,"},{"startTime":1110.559,"endTime":1113.259,"body":"doesn't mean that they'll implement it."},{"startTime":1113.409,"endTime":1113.739,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1113.739,"endTime":1115.489,"body":"Like we, we, we ran into it."},{"startTime":1115.539,"endTime":1117.799,"body":"We, we sold our solution to"},{"startTime":1115.539,"endTime":1117.799,"body":"a couple of companies and the"},{"startTime":1117.809,"endTime":1119.799,"body":"people really didn't use it much."},{"startTime":1119.949,"endTime":1120.479,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":1120.629,"endTime":1124.729,"body":"Well, it turns out that some people"},{"startTime":1120.629,"endTime":1124.729,"body":"just didn't feel like using what we had."},{"startTime":1124.729,"endTime":1126.794,"body":"They felt like traveling"},{"startTime":1124.729,"endTime":1126.794,"body":"was a better option."},{"startTime":1126.944,"endTime":1131.824,"body":"It's not the cheapest option, but it's"},{"startTime":1126.944,"endTime":1131.824,"body":"better individually for that employee."},{"startTime":1131.974,"endTime":1136.154,"body":"And so here it is a better offering,"},{"startTime":1131.974,"endTime":1136.154,"body":"but implementation will take time."},{"startTime":1136.304,"endTime":1140.084,"body":"And I think, I think any, any startup"},{"startTime":1136.304,"endTime":1140.084,"body":"that's making decisions Need to"},{"startTime":1140.084,"endTime":1144.434,"body":"evaluate whether it has the metrics"},{"startTime":1140.084,"endTime":1144.434,"body":"to scale and prove it's worth."},{"startTime":1144.584,"endTime":1147.954,"body":"There's obviously opportunity to"},{"startTime":1144.584,"endTime":1147.954,"body":"test some waters and maybe you"},{"startTime":1147.954,"endTime":1149.584,"body":"could, you could take a thin slice."},{"startTime":1149.734,"endTime":1152.354,"body":"Or maybe you just go for the big"},{"startTime":1149.734,"endTime":1152.354,"body":"deal and just say, look, we have"},{"startTime":1152.384,"endTime":1154.104,"body":"this thing that nobody else has."},{"startTime":1154.434,"endTime":1155.884,"body":"Sometimes you just have"},{"startTime":1154.434,"endTime":1155.884,"body":"to do what you have."},{"startTime":1156.034,"endTime":1157.174,"body":"I don't think there's a formula."},{"startTime":1157.194,"endTime":1160.374,"body":"See, there's three factors of"},{"startTime":1157.194,"endTime":1160.374,"body":"startups succeeding or failing."},{"startTime":1160.524,"endTime":1163.604,"body":"Startups that succeed, they had"},{"startTime":1160.524,"endTime":1163.604,"body":"the right product, at the right"},{"startTime":1163.604,"endTime":1165.504,"body":"time, and a lot, a lot of luck."},{"startTime":1165.654,"endTime":1166.004,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1166.154,"endTime":1168.414,"body":"And that's really the only thing"},{"startTime":1166.154,"endTime":1168.414,"body":"that's been, that's been proven."},{"startTime":1168.424,"endTime":1170.854,"body":"Those are the three factors"},{"startTime":1168.424,"endTime":1170.854,"body":"that made startups succeed."},{"startTime":1171.004,"endTime":1173.394,"body":"The rest, I think I'd"},{"startTime":1171.004,"endTime":1173.394,"body":"attribute that to luck."},{"startTime":1173.544,"endTime":1174.154,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":1174.304,"endTime":1175.174,"body":"Three factors."},{"startTime":1175.174,"endTime":1177.824,"body":"I think this might be"},{"startTime":1175.174,"endTime":1177.824,"body":"fodder for a future podcast."},{"startTime":1178.044,"endTime":1181.824,"body":"Just talking about startups and what"},{"startTime":1178.044,"endTime":1181.824,"body":"makes them succeed, what makes them"},{"startTime":1181.824,"endTime":1183.784,"body":"fail, and what makes them just basically"},{"startTime":1183.794,"endTime":1184.404,"body":"muddle through."},{"startTime":1184.554,"endTime":1186.834,"body":"Yeah, just like what we"},{"startTime":1184.554,"endTime":1186.834,"body":"talked about AI, right?"},{"startTime":1186.929,"endTime":1189.839,"body":"And I, I said AI and"},{"startTime":1186.929,"endTime":1189.839,"body":"product management, right?"},{"startTime":1189.859,"endTime":1192.779,"body":"And AI and product management"},{"startTime":1189.859,"endTime":1192.779,"body":"predicting which product is going"},{"startTime":1192.779,"endTime":1195.779,"body":"to be better or which features"},{"startTime":1192.779,"endTime":1195.779,"body":"should we build, build or deliver."},{"startTime":1195.929,"endTime":1197.549,"body":"And I said, okay, well, that sounds great."},{"startTime":1197.579,"endTime":1200.099,"body":"What if we had AI that told"},{"startTime":1197.579,"endTime":1200.099,"body":"us that, but then guess what?"},{"startTime":1200.399,"endTime":1202.379,"body":"That doesn't really go"},{"startTime":1200.399,"endTime":1202.379,"body":"well with our reality."},{"startTime":1202.529,"endTime":1204.629,"body":"If AI is screaming at you"},{"startTime":1202.529,"endTime":1204.629,"body":"and says, Hey, it's going to"},{"startTime":1204.629,"endTime":1205.919,"body":"be, and it's going to be bad."},{"startTime":1205.929,"endTime":1206.979,"body":"You're not going to succeed."},{"startTime":1206.979,"endTime":1207.769,"body":"And you succeed."},{"startTime":1207.769,"endTime":1208.369,"body":"What happens?"},{"startTime":1208.519,"endTime":1209.719,"body":"Cause AI is just AI."},{"startTime":1209.719,"endTime":1210.469,"body":"It can be wrong."},{"startTime":1210.619,"endTime":1212.059,"body":"It learns from examples."},{"startTime":1212.259,"endTime":1215.719,"body":"So same thing about you know,"},{"startTime":1212.259,"endTime":1215.719,"body":"us as human beings, there are so"},{"startTime":1215.719,"endTime":1218.619,"body":"many startups that succeeded when"},{"startTime":1215.719,"endTime":1218.619,"body":"everybody else said they failed that."},{"startTime":1221.519,"endTime":1222.869,"body":"They were utter success."},{"startTime":1223.019,"endTime":1226.499,"body":"So I don't think there's"},{"startTime":1223.019,"endTime":1226.499,"body":"anything predictive about that."},{"startTime":1226.649,"endTime":1229.719,"body":"I think some just should have never"},{"startTime":1226.649,"endTime":1229.719,"body":"been launched in the first place."},{"startTime":1229.869,"endTime":1233.249,"body":"And we can talk about the investment"},{"startTime":1229.869,"endTime":1233.249,"body":"money that, that, that beefed"},{"startTime":1233.249,"endTime":1236.659,"body":"them up and created an image and"},{"startTime":1233.249,"endTime":1236.659,"body":"unfortunately didn't play out."},{"startTime":1236.809,"endTime":1241.349,"body":"Or we can talk about the actual"},{"startTime":1236.809,"endTime":1241.349,"body":"examples when somebody grew companies"},{"startTime":1241.499,"endTime":1244.509,"body":"organic way was wildly successful."},{"startTime":1244.519,"endTime":1246.759,"body":"I mean, SurveyMonkey is a prime example."},{"startTime":1246.979,"endTime":1249.669,"body":"They were homegrown"},{"startTime":1246.979,"endTime":1249.669,"body":"and acquired by Intuit."},{"startTime":1249.819,"endTime":1252.279,"body":"But you know, they did a"},{"startTime":1249.819,"endTime":1252.279,"body":"tremendous job just building their"},{"startTime":1252.279,"endTime":1253.789,"body":"business and in their own way."},{"startTime":1254.119,"endTime":1258.609,"body":"Took them longer, but hey, just there's"},{"startTime":1254.119,"endTime":1258.609,"body":"many, many, many ways to build a business."},{"startTime":1258.759,"endTime":1260.829,"body":"Yeah, let's let's dip into investing."},{"startTime":1260.879,"endTime":1264.109,"body":"That's a, that's a good conversation"},{"startTime":1260.879,"endTime":1264.109,"body":"to go into right now because I feel"},{"startTime":1264.379,"endTime":1268.129,"body":"the best investors are, are I don't,"},{"startTime":1264.379,"endTime":1268.129,"body":"I hate to use the same term while"},{"startTime":1268.129,"endTime":1272.229,"body":"I'm talking about it, but the best"},{"startTime":1268.129,"endTime":1272.229,"body":"investors are invested in your roadmap."},{"startTime":1272.334,"endTime":1277.044,"body":"So, so I would correct that, that a little"},{"startTime":1272.334,"endTime":1277.044,"body":"bit investors don't invest in products."},{"startTime":1277.194,"endTime":1278.314,"body":"They invest in companies."},{"startTime":1278.354,"endTime":1279.714,"body":"They don't care what the product is."},{"startTime":1279.864,"endTime":1283.084,"body":"What they care is about the"},{"startTime":1279.864,"endTime":1283.084,"body":"KPIs that you can demonstrate."},{"startTime":1283.234,"endTime":1285.684,"body":"They care about the"},{"startTime":1283.234,"endTime":1285.684,"body":"monetization, if there is any."},{"startTime":1286.004,"endTime":1288.264,"body":"They care about where that will take you."},{"startTime":1288.414,"endTime":1289.664,"body":"It's not about the product."},{"startTime":1289.674,"endTime":1293.154,"body":"At that point you know, they'll trust"},{"startTime":1289.674,"endTime":1293.154,"body":"you to make the right decisions,"},{"startTime":1293.154,"endTime":1294.364,"body":"to build the right feature sets."},{"startTime":1294.684,"endTime":1295.954,"body":"They don't really, they don't really care."},{"startTime":1296.144,"endTime":1299.424,"body":"Now, they'll help you if,"},{"startTime":1296.144,"endTime":1299.424,"body":"if they're savvy enough."},{"startTime":1299.574,"endTime":1304.094,"body":"And a lot of investors actually, for that"},{"startTime":1299.574,"endTime":1304.094,"body":"reason, they only invest in companies"},{"startTime":1304.244,"endTime":1306.664,"body":"that are in a niche that they understand."},{"startTime":1306.814,"endTime":1310.359,"body":"They're not just gonna go and, hey,"},{"startTime":1306.814,"endTime":1310.359,"body":"you know uh, invest in healthcare"},{"startTime":1310.359,"endTime":1312.339,"body":"when they have no idea what healthcare"},{"startTime":1312.339,"endTime":1312.639,"body":"is."},{"startTime":1312.719,"endTime":1313.819,"body":"And I've heard that before."},{"startTime":1314.099,"endTime":1318.469,"body":"They say, I'm investing in the"},{"startTime":1314.099,"endTime":1318.469,"body":"individual people running the company"},{"startTime":1318.469,"endTime":1319.849,"body":"because I believe that they..."},{"startTime":1319.999,"endTime":1322.719,"body":"Can drive whatever the you"},{"startTime":1319.999,"endTime":1322.719,"body":"know, whatever the product"},{"startTime":1322.829,"endTime":1325.759,"body":"revision or whatever it is, but then"},{"startTime":1322.829,"endTime":1325.759,"body":"but then there's also KPIs, right?"},{"startTime":1325.909,"endTime":1328.619,"body":"So what are the indicators"},{"startTime":1325.909,"endTime":1328.619,"body":"that you could show?"},{"startTime":1328.769,"endTime":1329.759,"body":"So here's a funny thing."},{"startTime":1329.909,"endTime":1333.049,"body":"You can show so many different things"},{"startTime":1329.909,"endTime":1333.049,"body":"Early on the first thing you teach a"},{"startTime":1333.059,"endTime":1338.219,"body":"startup is hey, listen, do not Do not"},{"startTime":1333.059,"endTime":1338.219,"body":"pitch your revenue to any investors"},{"startTime":1338.219,"endTime":1339.619,"body":"why you don't have that much Right?"},{"startTime":1339.619,"endTime":1343.249,"body":"I mean, even if you think you have"},{"startTime":1339.619,"endTime":1343.249,"body":"more than enough, you probably"},{"startTime":1343.249,"endTime":1344.509,"body":"don't have enough to impress."},{"startTime":1344.819,"endTime":1347.644,"body":"So that's, that shouldn't be"},{"startTime":1344.819,"endTime":1347.644,"body":"your number one , success factor."},{"startTime":1347.664,"endTime":1349.344,"body":"What, what, what can you pitch?"},{"startTime":1349.344,"endTime":1350.624,"body":"You could pitch a lot of things."},{"startTime":1350.644,"endTime":1354.294,"body":"Transactions, users signups you name it."},{"startTime":1354.309,"endTime":1357.849,"body":"There's a whole set of different KPIs"},{"startTime":1354.309,"endTime":1357.849,"body":"that you could track to show success."},{"startTime":1357.849,"endTime":1362.189,"body":"Now, whether those metrics that you"},{"startTime":1357.849,"endTime":1362.189,"body":"pick are there just to raise capital,"},{"startTime":1362.229,"endTime":1365.344,"body":"which sometimes you you got to do"},{"startTime":1362.229,"endTime":1365.344,"body":"what you got to do to pitch and other"},{"startTime":1365.344,"endTime":1368.624,"body":"times you'll actually have a valid"},{"startTime":1365.344,"endTime":1368.624,"body":"business that it shows and it's proven."},{"startTime":1368.774,"endTime":1369.134,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1369.154,"endTime":1371.984,"body":"And it depends on which stage, what"},{"startTime":1369.154,"endTime":1371.984,"body":"kind of investor is going to make"},{"startTime":1371.984,"endTime":1376.114,"body":"that decision and how solid you"},{"startTime":1371.984,"endTime":1376.114,"body":"are in representing their data."},{"startTime":1376.264,"endTime":1379.264,"body":"You know, I don't think the"},{"startTime":1376.264,"endTime":1379.264,"body":"due diligence is that detailed."},{"startTime":1379.414,"endTime":1382.704,"body":"I think the due diligence in a lot"},{"startTime":1379.414,"endTime":1382.704,"body":"of ways are superficial, right?"},{"startTime":1382.704,"endTime":1384.494,"body":"So pre agreed fiction."},{"startTime":1384.644,"endTime":1385.974,"body":"That's kind of what we call it."},{"startTime":1386.124,"endTime":1388.744,"body":"You know, you're basically, it's"},{"startTime":1386.124,"endTime":1388.744,"body":"kind of an old standing joke."},{"startTime":1388.814,"endTime":1390.834,"body":"What do you, what do you"},{"startTime":1388.814,"endTime":1390.834,"body":"call a sales interview?"},{"startTime":1390.984,"endTime":1393.504,"body":"Is where one guy is lying about"},{"startTime":1390.984,"endTime":1393.504,"body":"where he's going and the other one"},{"startTime":1393.504,"endTime":1394.874,"body":"guy is lying about where he's been."},{"startTime":1395.024,"endTime":1395.324,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1395.444,"endTime":1397.764,"body":"So it's, it's kind of a very simple thing."},{"startTime":1397.914,"endTime":1400.574,"body":"In the end, you just have to"},{"startTime":1397.914,"endTime":1400.574,"body":"convince enough that you know"},{"startTime":1400.584,"endTime":1404.544,"body":"what you're doing and you have a"},{"startTime":1400.584,"endTime":1404.544,"body":"solid, solid strategy and approach."},{"startTime":1404.694,"endTime":1407.949,"body":"And that the end result actually"},{"startTime":1404.694,"endTime":1407.949,"body":"justifies the means, right?"},{"startTime":1408.099,"endTime":1413.039,"body":"But I agree with you that when"},{"startTime":1408.099,"endTime":1413.039,"body":"you look at the strategies as a"},{"startTime":1413.039,"endTime":1416.799,"body":"whole of the investors, if they're"},{"startTime":1413.039,"endTime":1416.799,"body":"investing in multiple companies, a"},{"startTime":1416.799,"endTime":1421.254,"body":"lot of them spreading the investment"},{"startTime":1416.799,"endTime":1421.254,"body":"kind of all over the place you"},{"startTime":1421.254,"endTime":1424.994,"body":"know, like butter on the bread and"},{"startTime":1421.254,"endTime":1424.994,"body":"they're really like roulette table."},{"startTime":1425.054,"endTime":1425.374,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1425.374,"endTime":1426.174,"body":"Like roulette table."},{"startTime":1426.324,"endTime":1426.484,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1426.484,"endTime":1427.194,"body":"One is red."},{"startTime":1427.204,"endTime":1427.934,"body":"One is black."},{"startTime":1427.954,"endTime":1429.914,"body":"One goes on the four digits."},{"startTime":1429.924,"endTime":1430.794,"body":"One goes here."},{"startTime":1430.794,"endTime":1430.974,"body":"There."},{"startTime":1431.124,"endTime":1434.084,"body":"And a lot of them are just"},{"startTime":1431.124,"endTime":1434.084,"body":"basically calculating the odds."},{"startTime":1434.084,"endTime":1437.044,"body":"Hey, listen, all I need is for one"},{"startTime":1434.084,"endTime":1437.044,"body":"of them to succeed and I'm golden."},{"startTime":1437.194,"endTime":1437.544,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1437.544,"endTime":1441.784,"body":"I think investment is difficult in many"},{"startTime":1437.544,"endTime":1441.784,"body":"ways and people are betting and it's good."},{"startTime":1441.934,"endTime":1446.674,"body":"But I think the toughest thing for us"},{"startTime":1441.934,"endTime":1446.674,"body":"for startup founders is always the early"},{"startTime":1446.674,"endTime":1451.614,"body":"investors because the early investors"},{"startTime":1446.674,"endTime":1451.614,"body":"they will write personal checks and you"},{"startTime":1451.614,"endTime":1453.294,"body":"have to build individual connections."},{"startTime":1453.294,"endTime":1453.344,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1453.494,"endTime":1455.254,"body":"You have to be very personable."},{"startTime":1455.514,"endTime":1456.574,"body":"You have no KPIs."},{"startTime":1456.584,"endTime":1459.084,"body":"It's basically pure personality."},{"startTime":1459.234,"endTime":1461.204,"body":"If they like you, they'll do it for you."},{"startTime":1461.354,"endTime":1462.954,"body":"How much of it is personality?"},{"startTime":1463.074,"endTime":1464.934,"body":"How much is story?"},{"startTime":1465.084,"endTime":1465.904,"body":"I think both."},{"startTime":1466.054,"endTime":1467.714,"body":"I think you gotta have both."},{"startTime":1467.854,"endTime":1471.284,"body":"For me I think it's the humble"},{"startTime":1467.854,"endTime":1471.284,"body":"nature of how I approached it."},{"startTime":1471.389,"endTime":1473.629,"body":"But I wasn't actually"},{"startTime":1471.389,"endTime":1473.629,"body":"raising capital at all."},{"startTime":1473.689,"endTime":1475.629,"body":"I, I asked for advice and I got money."},{"startTime":1475.779,"endTime":1477.269,"body":"So it's actually a standing joke."},{"startTime":1477.269,"endTime":1478.919,"body":"You ask for money, you get advice."},{"startTime":1479.069,"endTime":1480.529,"body":"You ask for advice, you get money."},{"startTime":1480.679,"endTime":1483.639,"body":"And actually with engineers,"},{"startTime":1480.679,"endTime":1483.639,"body":"it's interesting because"},{"startTime":1483.789,"endTime":1485.179,"body":"yeah, I want lots of advice."},{"startTime":1485.344,"endTime":1486.749,"body":"Pile, pile on good advice."},{"startTime":1487.039,"endTime":1489.909,"body":"And actually with engineers,"},{"startTime":1487.039,"endTime":1489.909,"body":"it's you ask for decomposition."},{"startTime":1490.059,"endTime":1490.569,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1490.749,"endTime":1494.409,"body":"And you get nothing and you ask for"},{"startTime":1490.749,"endTime":1494.409,"body":"estimation and you get a decomposition."},{"startTime":1494.409,"endTime":1494.709,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1494.714,"endTime":1494.944,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1494.949,"endTime":1496.329,"body":"So yeah, it's, it's exactly right."},{"startTime":1496.329,"endTime":1499.539,"body":"Actually, it, it's interesting how"},{"startTime":1496.329,"endTime":1499.539,"body":"certain things work behaviorally."},{"startTime":1499.829,"endTime":1503.189,"body":"But yeah, I mean, some people just"},{"startTime":1499.829,"endTime":1503.189,"body":"get lucky that they have a good, good"},{"startTime":1503.194,"endTime":1505.499,"body":"story, great delivery, good personality."},{"startTime":1505.504,"endTime":1509.184,"body":"It also helps if you've known somebody"},{"startTime":1505.504,"endTime":1509.184,"body":"for a little while and you're not"},{"startTime":1509.184,"endTime":1510.474,"body":"just leaching for the investment,"},{"startTime":1510.624,"endTime":1514.434,"body":"especially if, if you, you've really had,"},{"startTime":1510.624,"endTime":1514.434,"body":"okay, so if you really have no KPIs, you"},{"startTime":1514.434,"endTime":1516.264,"body":"don't have anything, it's really early."},{"startTime":1516.414,"endTime":1520.344,"body":"And you have a good story, hopefully"},{"startTime":1516.414,"endTime":1520.344,"body":"and you're just saying, look, in"},{"startTime":1520.344,"endTime":1522.054,"body":"six months we'll build up mindshare."},{"startTime":1522.054,"endTime":1522.924,"body":"That's all we'll do."},{"startTime":1523.134,"endTime":1524.244,"body":"We won't have a product yet."},{"startTime":1524.394,"endTime":1525.234,"body":"Please invest in us."},{"startTime":1525.414,"endTime":1525.714,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1525.744,"endTime":1526.434,"body":"It's a tough"},{"startTime":1526.434,"endTime":1526.614,"body":"one."},{"startTime":1526.674,"endTime":1530.004,"body":"I call it selling by proof"},{"startTime":1526.674,"endTime":1530.004,"body":"and selling by dream."},{"startTime":1530.294,"endTime":1531.404,"body":"Selling by dream."},{"startTime":1531.409,"endTime":1531.794,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":1531.794,"endTime":1532.094,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1532.099,"endTime":1533.774,"body":"So I mean, there's"},{"startTime":1532.099,"endTime":1533.774,"body":"really only two options."},{"startTime":1533.774,"endTime":1533.834,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1533.839,"endTime":1536.279,"body":"You either, you either sell"},{"startTime":1533.839,"endTime":1536.279,"body":"before you have it because you"},{"startTime":1536.279,"endTime":1539.089,"body":"can draw that immense picture."},{"startTime":1539.329,"endTime":1539.479,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1539.479,"endTime":1541.669,"body":"Or you can sell because you have proof."},{"startTime":1541.759,"endTime":1541.969,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1542.119,"endTime":1542.269,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1542.419,"endTime":1544.119,"body":"And it's easier to sell by proof."},{"startTime":1544.269,"endTime":1544.679,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1544.829,"endTime":1547.959,"body":"But it's tangible, but, but it's,"},{"startTime":1544.829,"endTime":1547.959,"body":"but it's harder to get there."},{"startTime":1548.239,"endTime":1551.549,"body":"the original thing where we"},{"startTime":1548.239,"endTime":1551.549,"body":"linked up was we, we bonded over"},{"startTime":1551.549,"endTime":1553.069,"body":"our I'm not going to say hatred."},{"startTime":1553.069,"endTime":1554.659,"body":"That's too strong a word, but"},{"startTime":1554.809,"endTime":1556.519,"body":"actually that word is just right."},{"startTime":1556.559,"endTime":1557.229,"body":"Oh, that word is"},{"startTime":1557.229,"endTime":1557.719,"body":"just right."},{"startTime":1557.739,"endTime":1558.229,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1558.249,"endTime":1563.039,"body":"Well, we, we, we bought this our,"},{"startTime":1558.249,"endTime":1563.039,"body":"our mutual, our mutual dislike"},{"startTime":1563.079,"endTime":1565.549,"body":"of a certain Atlassian product."},{"startTime":1565.609,"endTime":1568.279,"body":"It's it could be any Atlassian"},{"startTime":1565.609,"endTime":1568.279,"body":"product that starts with"},{"startTime":1568.279,"endTime":1569.039,"body":"a J and could be, could be"},{"startTime":1570.499,"endTime":1572.839,"body":"Jira could be, could be"},{"startTime":1570.499,"endTime":1572.839,"body":"any Atlassian product."},{"startTime":1573.184,"endTime":1574.504,"body":"Tell me what you most like."},{"startTime":1574.654,"endTime":1578.194,"body":"Jira or tell me what you"},{"startTime":1574.654,"endTime":1578.194,"body":"most dislike about Jira."},{"startTime":1578.344,"endTime":1578.744,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1578.774,"endTime":1582.154,"body":"Most like is about 20 something"},{"startTime":1578.774,"endTime":1582.154,"body":"years ago when I first used it."},{"startTime":1582.164,"endTime":1583.094,"body":"That was pretty good."},{"startTime":1583.244,"endTime":1586.614,"body":"You know, it was just a ticketing"},{"startTime":1583.244,"endTime":1586.614,"body":"yeah, it was a ticketing"},{"startTime":1586.614,"endTime":1588.314,"body":"system and it worked great."},{"startTime":1588.324,"endTime":1588.514,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1588.514,"endTime":1592.924,"body":"It was a internal installation, but"},{"startTime":1588.514,"endTime":1592.924,"body":"it was much better than a company, by"},{"startTime":1592.924,"endTime":1596.804,"body":"the way, it was much better than all"},{"startTime":1592.924,"endTime":1596.804,"body":"other web web based apps that we had"},{"startTime":1596.804,"endTime":1598.724,"body":"access to, to manage all that stuff."},{"startTime":1598.774,"endTime":1600.184,"body":"The usability was there."},{"startTime":1600.194,"endTime":1600.944,"body":"It was very nice."},{"startTime":1601.094,"endTime":1605.959,"body":"Income again, in comparison with what was"},{"startTime":1601.094,"endTime":1605.959,"body":"out there at the moment for a corporate"},{"startTime":1605.989,"endTime":1611.259,"body":"tool, it was quite nice because we were"},{"startTime":1605.989,"endTime":1611.259,"body":"used to launching all kinds of windows"},{"startTime":1611.259,"endTime":1616.839,"body":"based desktop apps to do the same thing,"},{"startTime":1611.259,"endTime":1616.839,"body":"built on Microsoft templates and all"},{"startTime":1616.839,"endTime":1620.749,"body":"that they looked ugly that they were"},{"startTime":1616.839,"endTime":1620.749,"body":"bloated and here it is a web based tool."},{"startTime":1620.749,"endTime":1621.949,"body":"It was just pretty awesome."},{"startTime":1622.099,"endTime":1625.079,"body":"Now I think what it morphed to today."},{"startTime":1625.229,"endTime":1627.549,"body":"To me is really, really strange."},{"startTime":1627.699,"endTime":1630.304,"body":"You know, it's number one"},{"startTime":1627.699,"endTime":1630.304,"body":"in development, as a tool."},{"startTime":1630.454,"endTime":1633.184,"body":"There's really not a competitor for JIRA."},{"startTime":1633.334,"endTime":1636.064,"body":"And we can talk all about the"},{"startTime":1633.334,"endTime":1636.064,"body":"competition in this space."},{"startTime":1636.064,"endTime":1638.424,"body":"We could talk about linears and shortcuts."},{"startTime":1638.574,"endTime":1643.814,"body":"And all of the other ones but history"},{"startTime":1638.574,"endTime":1643.814,"body":"has shown that despite these competitors,"},{"startTime":1643.824,"endTime":1645.144,"body":"there's only one competitor that..."},{"startTime":1645.254,"endTime":1647.984,"body":"Try to take the piece of"},{"startTime":1645.254,"endTime":1647.984,"body":"it and it became Atlassian."},{"startTime":1647.984,"endTime":1649.974,"body":"It's called Trello, right?"},{"startTime":1650.124,"endTime":1652.134,"body":"But all of them are identical."},{"startTime":1652.284,"endTime":1653.594,"body":"There's not a single thing."},{"startTime":1653.594,"endTime":1655.814,"body":"They're all glorified,"},{"startTime":1653.594,"endTime":1655.814,"body":"express Excel sheets."},{"startTime":1655.964,"endTime":1657.144,"body":"And I would even call them."},{"startTime":1657.144,"endTime":1659.804,"body":"They're all sales forces of"},{"startTime":1657.144,"endTime":1659.804,"body":"project management, right?"},{"startTime":1659.804,"endTime":1662.144,"body":"So they're all these pieces"},{"startTime":1659.804,"endTime":1662.144,"body":"you can configure and you"},{"startTime":1662.144,"endTime":1663.234,"body":"can do anything you want."},{"startTime":1663.234,"endTime":1664.204,"body":"The problem is."},{"startTime":1664.354,"endTime":1671.044,"body":"If, if you're executing a discipline,"},{"startTime":1664.354,"endTime":1671.044,"body":"and I call Agile a discipline, why"},{"startTime":1671.074,"endTime":1676.034,"body":"are we using these generic things"},{"startTime":1671.074,"endTime":1676.034,"body":"that actually are responsible for..."},{"startTime":1676.184,"endTime":1679.934,"body":"The largest number of anti patterns"},{"startTime":1676.184,"endTime":1679.934,"body":"and inefficiencies within the process."},{"startTime":1680.674,"endTime":1683.414,"body":"You know, most people don't know"},{"startTime":1680.674,"endTime":1683.414,"body":"how to implement Agile, right?"},{"startTime":1683.474,"endTime":1685.664,"body":"And we can discuss it all over and over."},{"startTime":1685.984,"endTime":1688.244,"body":"Big company, all separate"},{"startTime":1685.984,"endTime":1688.244,"body":"pockets, all separate podcasts."},{"startTime":1689.524,"endTime":1691.634,"body":"And the challenge is, is that."},{"startTime":1691.789,"endTime":1693.739,"body":"It never morphed into something helpful."},{"startTime":1693.759,"endTime":1695.419,"body":"Instead, it went the other direction."},{"startTime":1695.569,"endTime":1701.499,"body":"It compromised on its values"},{"startTime":1695.569,"endTime":1701.499,"body":"in order to expand one size"},{"startTime":1701.499,"endTime":1703.479,"body":"fits all and became bloated."},{"startTime":1703.479,"endTime":1706.959,"body":"I mean, I had somebody say, say this"},{"startTime":1703.479,"endTime":1706.959,"body":"to me the other week and say, if"},{"startTime":1706.959,"endTime":1710.629,"body":"you need a project to launch project"},{"startTime":1706.959,"endTime":1710.629,"body":"management you're doing something wrong."},{"startTime":1712.199,"endTime":1713.289,"body":"I found that so interesting."},{"startTime":1713.439,"endTime":1715.889,"body":"Like to implement project"},{"startTime":1713.439,"endTime":1715.889,"body":"management, you need a project."},{"startTime":1715.899,"endTime":1717.019,"body":"That's that's kind of funny."},{"startTime":1717.029,"endTime":1717.159,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1717.359,"endTime":1722.839,"body":"And like a a hundred percent in agreement"},{"startTime":1717.359,"endTime":1722.839,"body":"about like they, Atlassian has taken"},{"startTime":1723.009,"endTime":1726.609,"body":"many, many strategies and you'll see"},{"startTime":1723.009,"endTime":1726.609,"body":"many, many people online getting."},{"startTime":1726.759,"endTime":1731.219,"body":"It's like, oh, they took Atlassian"},{"startTime":1726.759,"endTime":1731.219,"body":"through IPO and they expanded Atlassian,"},{"startTime":1731.369,"endTime":1732.189,"body":"this and that and this and that."},{"startTime":1732.359,"endTime":1737.519,"body":"Well, they did that through"},{"startTime":1732.359,"endTime":1737.519,"body":"compromise to say, we know how"},{"startTime":1737.539,"endTime":1739.249,"body":"Agile software development is done."},{"startTime":1739.399,"endTime":1741.939,"body":"We just don't think that's"},{"startTime":1739.399,"endTime":1741.939,"body":"where the money's at."},{"startTime":1742.279,"endTime":1747.509,"body":"So we're going to let you bend Agile"},{"startTime":1742.279,"endTime":1747.509,"body":"software development to encompass all"},{"startTime":1747.559,"endTime":1750.969,"body":"these other things and these large"},{"startTime":1747.559,"endTime":1750.969,"body":"organizations that really don't."},{"startTime":1753.834,"endTime":1758.234,"body":"I want to develop a tool suite for"},{"startTime":1753.834,"endTime":1758.234,"body":"people that don't really have to learn"},{"startTime":1758.384,"endTime":1760.054,"body":"how to do Agile software development."},{"startTime":1760.054,"endTime":1764.084,"body":"They can just call it Agile software"},{"startTime":1760.054,"endTime":1764.084,"body":"development in name and use our tool."},{"startTime":1764.344,"endTime":1764.874,"body":"Which is still a"},{"startTime":1764.874,"endTime":1765.624,"body":"ticketing system."},{"startTime":1765.774,"endTime":1767.064,"body":"That's insanity to me."},{"startTime":1767.124,"endTime":1767.424,"body":"Well,"},{"startTime":1767.464,"endTime":1770.774,"body":"then on the other hand, you"},{"startTime":1767.464,"endTime":1770.774,"body":"have to applaud them because"},{"startTime":1770.824,"endTime":1774.834,"body":"those investors that backed that"},{"startTime":1770.824,"endTime":1774.834,"body":"company, they made a ton of money."},{"startTime":1775.054,"endTime":1776.584,"body":"They made it successful."},{"startTime":1776.734,"endTime":1778.034,"body":"Successful business."},{"startTime":1778.044,"endTime":1779.744,"body":"They're still buying companies."},{"startTime":1779.754,"endTime":1784.904,"body":"It's the only product that has a I"},{"startTime":1779.754,"endTime":1784.904,"body":"effin hate you website in its name."},{"startTime":1785.054,"endTime":1786.484,"body":"That I know of, okay?"},{"startTime":1786.484,"endTime":1787.794,"body":"And we all know about it."},{"startTime":1787.944,"endTime":1788.184,"body":"website."},{"startTime":1788.184,"endTime":1791.884,"body":"It's the only  solution that I know"},{"startTime":1788.184,"endTime":1791.884,"body":"of that everybody using it hates."},{"startTime":1792.199,"endTime":1792.359,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1792.549,"endTime":1795.369,"body":"And the ones that don't basically"},{"startTime":1792.549,"endTime":1795.369,"body":"claim that you're not using it right."},{"startTime":1795.389,"endTime":1797.209,"body":"And, and, and those people"},{"startTime":1795.389,"endTime":1797.209,"body":"are making money because"},{"startTime":1797.209,"endTime":1798.249,"body":"they do configurations on it."},{"startTime":1798.249,"endTime":1798.669,"body":"Yeah, there's,"},{"startTime":1798.819,"endTime":1800.989,"body":"there's a, yeah, there's a"},{"startTime":1798.819,"endTime":1800.989,"body":"configuration for that, yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1801.189,"endTime":1803.939,"body":"So, so yeah, and then, and they're"},{"startTime":1801.189,"endTime":1803.939,"body":"selling configuration services."},{"startTime":1803.959,"endTime":1807.479,"body":"So yeah all in all, I think"},{"startTime":1803.959,"endTime":1807.479,"body":"it's bloated in many ways."},{"startTime":1807.479,"endTime":1811.479,"body":"I think it should go away because"},{"startTime":1807.479,"endTime":1811.479,"body":"they're really not pushing the envelope."},{"startTime":1811.769,"endTime":1814.539,"body":"But they built a humongous mousetrap."},{"startTime":1814.689,"endTime":1818.369,"body":"They built the integrations, they've made"},{"startTime":1814.689,"endTime":1818.369,"body":"it so heavy people can't switch out of it."},{"startTime":1818.519,"endTime":1821.489,"body":"There's all this data, you put"},{"startTime":1818.519,"endTime":1821.489,"body":"it in the cloud now, people"},{"startTime":1821.489,"endTime":1822.589,"body":"don't want to mess with it."},{"startTime":1822.869,"endTime":1825.359,"body":"So, they build it into"},{"startTime":1822.869,"endTime":1825.359,"body":"a big, big massive trap."},{"startTime":1825.359,"endTime":1827.979,"body":"However, there's a way to get"},{"startTime":1825.359,"endTime":1827.979,"body":"around it, and that's very easy."},{"startTime":1828.129,"endTime":1830.779,"body":"All of these projects that"},{"startTime":1828.129,"endTime":1830.779,"body":"are being executed in JIRA and"},{"startTime":1830.779,"endTime":1832.669,"body":"what not, you can just cut off."},{"startTime":1832.819,"endTime":1835.059,"body":"It comes next sprint, just drag."},{"startTime":1835.209,"endTime":1837.999,"body":"Whatever the elements you"},{"startTime":1835.209,"endTime":1837.999,"body":"need for that sprint only into"},{"startTime":1837.999,"endTime":1839.229,"body":"the new tool and start over."},{"startTime":1839.379,"endTime":1840.589,"body":"And there's no loss."},{"startTime":1840.609,"endTime":1842.209,"body":"You can't search for anything in Jira."},{"startTime":1842.339,"endTime":1843.079,"body":"Actually, it's funny."},{"startTime":1843.239,"endTime":1847.324,"body":"There was an ad recently that popped"},{"startTime":1843.239,"endTime":1847.324,"body":"popped in front of me , and it was like"},{"startTime":1847.464,"endTime":1852.234,"body":"confluence, and then it says 71 percent"},{"startTime":1847.464,"endTime":1852.234,"body":"of users search less in confluence."},{"startTime":1852.444,"endTime":1854.064,"body":"I couldn't resist, I left a comment."},{"startTime":1854.344,"endTime":1857.264,"body":"I said, those are the same 71"},{"startTime":1854.344,"endTime":1857.264,"body":"percent that can't find anything."},{"startTime":1857.339,"endTime":1858.489,"body":"Well, I had a chuckle."},{"startTime":1858.489,"endTime":1860.159,"body":"I took a screenshot, sent it to my team."},{"startTime":1860.489,"endTime":1865.119,"body":"But ultimately I think, I think if we are"},{"startTime":1860.489,"endTime":1865.119,"body":"to change and you and I, we connected on"},{"startTime":1865.119,"endTime":1869.239,"body":"the development and product management"},{"startTime":1865.119,"endTime":1869.239,"body":"kind of aspects and we can do better."},{"startTime":1869.389,"endTime":1870.339,"body":"We can do so better."},{"startTime":1870.349,"endTime":1874.229,"body":"There are ways that we figured out"},{"startTime":1870.349,"endTime":1874.229,"body":"how to make teams more efficient."},{"startTime":1874.379,"endTime":1877.939,"body":"There is a new discipline called"},{"startTime":1874.379,"endTime":1877.939,"body":"product management, which now talks"},{"startTime":1877.939,"endTime":1880.914,"body":"about metrics based decision making."},{"startTime":1880.984,"endTime":1884.434,"body":"And There's all these techniques"},{"startTime":1880.984,"endTime":1884.434,"body":"that evolved over the years."},{"startTime":1884.434,"endTime":1888.404,"body":"They're all kind of rooted out of agile"},{"startTime":1884.434,"endTime":1888.404,"body":"that came out into a different way of"},{"startTime":1888.404,"endTime":1892.894,"body":"product ownership, as opposed to these"},{"startTime":1888.404,"endTime":1892.894,"body":"big project management running the show."},{"startTime":1892.894,"endTime":1893.844,"body":"And it's all exciting."},{"startTime":1893.854,"endTime":1896.084,"body":"There's lots of things, but we"},{"startTime":1893.854,"endTime":1896.084,"body":"still haven't figured out how to."},{"startTime":1896.219,"endTime":1897.019,"body":"build stuff right."},{"startTime":1897.169,"endTime":1897.469,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1897.739,"endTime":1902.669,"body":"And mostly this goes to larger companies,"},{"startTime":1897.739,"endTime":1902.669,"body":"small companies, one team, no big deal."},{"startTime":1902.819,"endTime":1903.119,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1903.179,"endTime":1905.979,"body":"Two teams, a little harder,"},{"startTime":1903.179,"endTime":1905.979,"body":"but still not as challenging."},{"startTime":1905.979,"endTime":1906.389,"body":"Three."},{"startTime":1906.659,"endTime":1907.129,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1907.399,"endTime":1907.749,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1907.929,"endTime":1908.299,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1908.509,"endTime":1910.079,"body":"And it gets exponentially more hard."},{"startTime":1910.219,"endTime":1910.489,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1910.639,"endTime":1912.309,"body":"And can we do things differently?"},{"startTime":1912.319,"endTime":1915.149,"body":"Yes, we can, but we have to start with"},{"startTime":1912.319,"endTime":1915.149,"body":"something a little, a little different."},{"startTime":1915.299,"endTime":1917.609,"body":"And that's kind of the mission"},{"startTime":1915.299,"endTime":1917.609,"body":"that I took upon ourselves."},{"startTime":1917.759,"endTime":1919.719,"body":"Again, launching the next startup, right?"},{"startTime":1919.749,"endTime":1921.499,"body":"And primarily around."},{"startTime":1921.649,"endTime":1924.959,"body":"Not only building better products, but"},{"startTime":1921.649,"endTime":1924.959,"body":"also making engineering teams better."},{"startTime":1925.289,"endTime":1929.529,"body":"What if there was something that"},{"startTime":1925.289,"endTime":1929.529,"body":"was all about execution, but it"},{"startTime":1929.539,"endTime":1931.459,"body":"actually helped build teams better?"},{"startTime":1931.609,"endTime":1933.819,"body":"I was in Warsaw last year."},{"startTime":1933.969,"endTime":1936.489,"body":"Kind of by accident ended"},{"startTime":1933.969,"endTime":1936.489,"body":"up at this LESS conference."},{"startTime":1936.529,"endTime":1941.119,"body":"I was in a Agile conference in Prague"},{"startTime":1936.529,"endTime":1941.119,"body":"before, and my team was in Warsaw,"},{"startTime":1941.119,"endTime":1942.739,"body":"so I went over to see my team."},{"startTime":1942.889,"endTime":1947.059,"body":"And I'm walking on the street and,"},{"startTime":1942.889,"endTime":1947.059,"body":"browsing LinkedIn, and there's a picture."},{"startTime":1947.089,"endTime":1949.149,"body":"Hey, I'm here at the conference,"},{"startTime":1947.089,"endTime":1949.149,"body":"and I look over, I'm right"},{"startTime":1949.149,"endTime":1949.999,"body":"next to that building."},{"startTime":1950.009,"endTime":1951.089,"body":"And I was like, whoa, cool."},{"startTime":1951.239,"endTime":1953.029,"body":"So I go in there and I..."},{"startTime":1953.179,"endTime":1957.279,"body":"I got inside in the let me participate"},{"startTime":1953.179,"endTime":1957.279,"body":"in some of those discussions."},{"startTime":1957.279,"endTime":1959.079,"body":"And one of the discussion"},{"startTime":1957.279,"endTime":1959.079,"body":"was very interesting."},{"startTime":1959.229,"endTime":1963.689,"body":"It said if we're all talking about"},{"startTime":1959.229,"endTime":1963.689,"body":"teamwork, why over the past 20 years we've"},{"startTime":1963.709,"endTime":1969.369,"body":"given our engineers the tools to work away"},{"startTime":1963.709,"endTime":1969.369,"body":"from each other's into individual silos."},{"startTime":1969.639,"endTime":1973.849,"body":"We gave them slack, we gave them email,"},{"startTime":1969.639,"endTime":1973.849,"body":"we gave them a thousand different"},{"startTime":1973.879,"endTime":1975.919,"body":"asynchronous communication tools."},{"startTime":1976.069,"endTime":1980.239,"body":"And now we, but we keep on preaching"},{"startTime":1976.069,"endTime":1980.239,"body":"teamwork and all of that stuff."},{"startTime":1980.549,"endTime":1983.389,"body":"So, I think there is a way"},{"startTime":1980.549,"endTime":1983.389,"body":"we can bring people together."},{"startTime":1983.389,"endTime":1986.339,"body":"We just need to, again,"},{"startTime":1983.389,"endTime":1986.339,"body":"revisit how we've done things."},{"startTime":1986.489,"endTime":1987.819,"body":"So interesting you say that."},{"startTime":1987.849,"endTime":1992.129,"body":"Talk about one or two ways that we can"},{"startTime":1987.849,"endTime":1992.129,"body":"do things differently going forward"},{"startTime":1992.159,"endTime":1996.834,"body":"instead of these tools that allow people"},{"startTime":1992.159,"endTime":1996.834,"body":"to just work by themselves in in silos."},{"startTime":1996.984,"endTime":1998.354,"body":"I think the big one is swarming."},{"startTime":1998.504,"endTime":2004.094,"body":"So in engineering we always Well, we"},{"startTime":1998.504,"endTime":2004.094,"body":"should be working to break things down."},{"startTime":2004.244,"endTime":2008.974,"body":"And the pattern of people not pulling"},{"startTime":2004.244,"endTime":2008.974,"body":"but being assigned work is the one"},{"startTime":2008.974,"endTime":2010.584,"body":"that needs to go away really badly."},{"startTime":2010.644,"endTime":2011.154,"body":"Amen."},{"startTime":2011.304,"endTime":2011.744,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2011.804,"endTime":2013.094,"body":"It stops everything."},{"startTime":2013.094,"endTime":2015.784,"body":"So it stops the self"},{"startTime":2013.094,"endTime":2015.784,"body":"organization of the team."},{"startTime":2015.934,"endTime":2020.214,"body":"Then Decomposing the work is something"},{"startTime":2015.934,"endTime":2020.214,"body":"engineers are really bad at, hence"},{"startTime":2020.394,"endTime":2024.234,"body":"my comment previously on, you ask to"},{"startTime":2020.394,"endTime":2024.234,"body":"decompose, they do a bad job, you ask"},{"startTime":2024.234,"endTime":2026.134,"body":"them to estimate, you get a decomposition."},{"startTime":2026.284,"endTime":2028.904,"body":"Some of it you don't need the"},{"startTime":2026.284,"endTime":2028.904,"body":"estimate, but just asking for"},{"startTime":2028.904,"endTime":2030.214,"body":"one gives you better results"},{"startTime":2030.364,"endTime":2035.074,"body":"the next thing that needs to"},{"startTime":2030.364,"endTime":2035.074,"body":"go away is the Micromanagement."},{"startTime":2035.224,"endTime":2035.604,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2035.754,"endTime":2037.104,"body":"So, I have a story."},{"startTime":2037.164,"endTime":2040.384,"body":"This was again in the same company"},{"startTime":2037.164,"endTime":2040.384,"body":"where I called the CEO and mister."},{"startTime":2040.534,"endTime":2041.874,"body":"And we had a QA."},{"startTime":2042.024,"endTime":2043.574,"body":"This kid was brilliant."},{"startTime":2043.724,"endTime":2047.849,"body":"Okay, so back then I worked you know,"},{"startTime":2043.724,"endTime":2047.849,"body":"as a government contractor, and this"},{"startTime":2047.869,"endTime":2052.989,"body":"kid memorized a 450 page manual about"},{"startTime":2047.869,"endTime":2052.989,"body":"with a lot of business rules in it."},{"startTime":2053.139,"endTime":2053.519,"body":"Amen."},{"startTime":2053.709,"endTime":2055.469,"body":"Nobody would do that, right?"},{"startTime":2055.659,"endTime":2056.499,"body":"And he just read it."},{"startTime":2056.529,"endTime":2056.779,"body":"And."},{"startTime":2057.084,"endTime":2058.654,"body":"You know, he became the expert."},{"startTime":2058.674,"endTime":2060.774,"body":"Everybody came to him to ask questions."},{"startTime":2060.924,"endTime":2064.244,"body":"Well, one day we're showing up for work"},{"startTime":2060.924,"endTime":2064.244,"body":"and we find out that he's been reassigned."},{"startTime":2064.244,"endTime":2067.524,"body":"I'm like, you took our best guy and you"},{"startTime":2064.244,"endTime":2067.524,"body":"just, and everybody was complaining."},{"startTime":2067.674,"endTime":2069.624,"body":"Well, this wasn't my first lesson."},{"startTime":2069.854,"endTime":2072.744,"body":"Because he said, well, guys,"},{"startTime":2069.854,"endTime":2072.744,"body":"you don't realize, but he was"},{"startTime":2072.744,"endTime":2073.854,"body":"pulling all of your weight."},{"startTime":2074.004,"endTime":2074.494,"body":"How so?"},{"startTime":2074.644,"endTime":2076.504,"body":"Well, why didn't you read the manual?"},{"startTime":2076.654,"endTime":2077.774,"body":"And then it dawned on me."},{"startTime":2077.774,"endTime":2078.904,"body":"Yes, that's right."},{"startTime":2079.004,"endTime":2083.714,"body":"Because we had this exceptional,"},{"startTime":2079.004,"endTime":2083.714,"body":"talented kid on our team, he was actually"},{"startTime":2083.714,"endTime":2086.994,"body":"carrying all of us by learning what we"},{"startTime":2083.714,"endTime":2086.994,"body":"should have learned in the first place."},{"startTime":2087.144,"endTime":2088.234,"body":"So we became lazy."},{"startTime":2088.564,"endTime":2091.924,"body":"So plucking him out from"},{"startTime":2088.564,"endTime":2091.924,"body":"the team made us step up."},{"startTime":2092.074,"endTime":2095.624,"body":"Keeping him inside would have been"},{"startTime":2092.074,"endTime":2095.624,"body":"a safer bet, but we would have not"},{"startTime":2095.624,"endTime":2098.574,"body":"have grown because we would have"},{"startTime":2095.624,"endTime":2098.574,"body":"still relied on that individual."},{"startTime":2098.724,"endTime":2103.764,"body":"And as, as interesting as it is, that's"},{"startTime":2098.724,"endTime":2103.764,"body":"how I look at the micromanagement people"},{"startTime":2103.764,"endTime":2109.514,"body":"are like, you have team self organization"},{"startTime":2103.764,"endTime":2109.514,"body":"and that's what the micromanager says."},{"startTime":2109.514,"endTime":2111.194,"body":"Well, nobody's going to"},{"startTime":2109.514,"endTime":2111.194,"body":"self organize, right?"},{"startTime":2111.344,"endTime":2115.204,"body":"Not as long as you keep getting, being"},{"startTime":2111.344,"endTime":2115.204,"body":"micromanaged to self organize, right?"},{"startTime":2115.374,"endTime":2116.664,"body":"You can't delegate ownership."},{"startTime":2116.674,"endTime":2117.854,"body":"You have to facilitate it."},{"startTime":2118.154,"endTime":2120.024,"body":"And,  the short of it is..."},{"startTime":2120.174,"endTime":2124.164,"body":"If you want teams to organize, you"},{"startTime":2120.174,"endTime":2124.164,"body":"have to tell them direction and"},{"startTime":2124.164,"endTime":2125.804,"body":"let them figure out their own way."},{"startTime":2125.954,"endTime":2129.414,"body":"But we're so compelled in this"},{"startTime":2125.954,"endTime":2129.414,"body":"legacy way of working that we"},{"startTime":2129.414,"endTime":2130.754,"body":"keep on doing micromanagement."},{"startTime":2130.904,"endTime":2133.884,"body":"And so if we build a tool that actually..."},{"startTime":2134.034,"endTime":2139.564,"body":"stops micromanaging, then that's actually"},{"startTime":2134.034,"endTime":2139.564,"body":"going to help the teams to come together."},{"startTime":2139.714,"endTime":2141.734,"body":"And the question is, how"},{"startTime":2139.714,"endTime":2141.734,"body":"do we build such a tool?"},{"startTime":2141.884,"endTime":2146.374,"body":"Well, this is again, a thought of,"},{"startTime":2141.884,"endTime":2146.374,"body":"it's very easy to build such a tool."},{"startTime":2146.524,"endTime":2151.514,"body":"You only micromanage when you, A,"},{"startTime":2146.524,"endTime":2151.514,"body":"do not understand where things are,"},{"startTime":2151.664,"endTime":2155.584,"body":"cannot comprehend the next steps"},{"startTime":2151.664,"endTime":2155.584,"body":"to get there, and cannot visualize."},{"startTime":2158.164,"endTime":2161.684,"body":"It basically comes from a lack of"},{"startTime":2158.164,"endTime":2161.684,"body":"visibility, transparency, and trust."},{"startTime":2161.834,"endTime":2167.089,"body":"You put the tool that gives you that,"},{"startTime":2161.834,"endTime":2167.089,"body":"not as a report, or some kind of a"},{"startTime":2167.119,"endTime":2171.619,"body":"composite of reports, but you put it as"},{"startTime":2167.119,"endTime":2171.619,"body":"a front and center way of visualizing"},{"startTime":2171.619,"endTime":2174.739,"body":"the information in progress, and now"},{"startTime":2171.619,"endTime":2174.739,"body":"you've just solved the problem that"},{"startTime":2174.739,"endTime":2176.239,"body":"you can scale back to micromanagement."},{"startTime":2176.469,"endTime":2176.999,"body":"I love that."},{"startTime":2177.289,"endTime":2180.339,"body":"That's one of the things that I"},{"startTime":2177.289,"endTime":2180.339,"body":"basically encourage my teams to not"},{"startTime":2180.339,"endTime":2184.249,"body":"write status reports of and and the"},{"startTime":2180.339,"endTime":2184.249,"body":"like just put a dashboard in there"},{"startTime":2184.249,"endTime":2185.519,"body":"and it's gonna show you everything."},{"startTime":2185.669,"endTime":2188.869,"body":"And that's where teams balk a little"},{"startTime":2185.669,"endTime":2188.869,"body":"bit because they're afraid that"},{"startTime":2188.869,"endTime":2190.639,"body":"it's gonna show them everything."},{"startTime":2190.649,"endTime":2194.249,"body":"The good, the bad and the ugly"},{"startTime":2190.649,"endTime":2194.249,"body":"can't improve what you don't see."},{"startTime":2194.249,"endTime":2195.329,"body":"So just put it out there."},{"startTime":2195.509,"endTime":2196.959,"body":"If it's ugly, let's talk about it."},{"startTime":2197.109,"endTime":2199.049,"body":"Right if it's good, nobody's"},{"startTime":2197.109,"endTime":2199.049,"body":"gonna talk about it."},{"startTime":2199.069,"endTime":2199.659,"body":"This is gonna go."},{"startTime":2199.689,"endTime":2200.889,"body":"Yeah, that's expected like"},{"startTime":2200.969,"endTime":2203.269,"body":"There are two things you said that"},{"startTime":2200.969,"endTime":2203.269,"body":"I wrote down They were there were"},{"startTime":2203.269,"endTime":2207.224,"body":"so like one thing was like just"},{"startTime":2203.269,"endTime":2207.224,"body":"blew my mind and I didn't Stop us."},{"startTime":2207.264,"endTime":2209.574,"body":"I want, I didn't want to stop"},{"startTime":2207.264,"endTime":2209.574,"body":"the conversation, but like"},{"startTime":2209.814,"endTime":2211.494,"body":"you can't delegate ownership."},{"startTime":2211.644,"endTime":2212.914,"body":"You have to facilitate it."},{"startTime":2212.989,"endTime":2216.909,"body":"When you want to delegate something like"},{"startTime":2212.989,"endTime":2216.909,"body":"generally you delegate something to a"},{"startTime":2216.919,"endTime":2221.609,"body":"product manager and then I as a product"},{"startTime":2216.919,"endTime":2221.609,"body":"manager, I would be I would be aghast."},{"startTime":2221.649,"endTime":2222.889,"body":"That's my five dollar word for the day."},{"startTime":2222.959,"endTime":2223.759,"body":"I would be aghast."},{"startTime":2223.999,"endTime":2224.559,"body":"Aghast!"},{"startTime":2224.609,"endTime":2227.079,"body":"I'm like an old Hollywood"},{"startTime":2224.609,"endTime":2227.079,"body":"star from the 1920s."},{"startTime":2227.309,"endTime":2232.099,"body":"I'd be aghast if anybody from the"},{"startTime":2227.309,"endTime":2232.099,"body":"business walked to up to one of"},{"startTime":2232.099,"endTime":2235.249,"body":"the developers on my team and said"},{"startTime":2232.099,"endTime":2235.249,"body":"where are we at with XYZ item."},{"startTime":2235.324,"endTime":2239.914,"body":"Well, I'll give you, I'll give you an"},{"startTime":2235.324,"endTime":2239.914,"body":"example of a delegation versus ownership."},{"startTime":2239.954,"endTime":2240.244,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2240.294,"endTime":2240.544,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2240.624,"endTime":2241.104,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2241.254,"endTime":2242.724,"body":"A delegation goes like this."},{"startTime":2242.874,"endTime":2248.284,"body":"Hey I'd like you to draw a user"},{"startTime":2242.874,"endTime":2248.284,"body":"experience diagram for a pop up that"},{"startTime":2248.284,"endTime":2252.094,"body":"occurs after you click this button,"},{"startTime":2248.284,"endTime":2252.094,"body":"and here's the text that it gives you."},{"startTime":2252.244,"endTime":2253.754,"body":"That's a delegation, right?"},{"startTime":2253.904,"endTime":2255.394,"body":"An ownership is like this."},{"startTime":2255.544,"endTime":2259.414,"body":"Hey, listen, our users reported that"},{"startTime":2255.544,"endTime":2259.414,"body":"when they're doing this and this,"},{"startTime":2259.414,"endTime":2261.424,"body":"it's not going according to plan."},{"startTime":2261.574,"endTime":2264.664,"body":"And what I'd like you to do is think"},{"startTime":2261.574,"endTime":2264.664,"body":"of a way that we can solve this."},{"startTime":2264.814,"endTime":2264.874,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2264.879,"endTime":2265.024,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2265.324,"endTime":2266.794,"body":"Come back to me with three examples."},{"startTime":2266.794,"endTime":2266.884,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2267.034,"endTime":2270.114,"body":"Yeah, so I want to finish the"},{"startTime":2267.034,"endTime":2270.114,"body":"thought before we go back to"},{"startTime":2270.114,"endTime":2270.944,"body":"what I was saying earlier."},{"startTime":2270.944,"endTime":2271.184,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2271.184,"endTime":2275.014,"body":"So what you're saying between the"},{"startTime":2271.184,"endTime":2275.014,"body":"difference in the difference between"},{"startTime":2275.074,"endTime":2279.864,"body":"delegation and ownership, ownership"},{"startTime":2275.074,"endTime":2279.864,"body":"with ownership, you're expressing"},{"startTime":2279.864,"endTime":2283.354,"body":"intent, essentially just saying"},{"startTime":2279.864,"endTime":2283.354,"body":"we'll figure out something and"},{"startTime":2283.354,"endTime":2287.104,"body":"then let them come up with the how"},{"startTime":2283.354,"endTime":2287.104,"body":"you're not steering them in any way"},{"startTime":2287.444,"endTime":2290.574,"body":"with with you again,"},{"startTime":2287.444,"endTime":2290.574,"body":"can't delegate ownership."},{"startTime":2290.574,"endTime":2291.664,"body":"So I can't I can't."},{"startTime":2291.949,"endTime":2296.369,"body":"Promise that the person I shared this"},{"startTime":2291.949,"endTime":2296.369,"body":"with will take ownership, but when"},{"startTime":2296.369,"endTime":2300.629,"body":"I phrase it with the questions that"},{"startTime":2296.369,"endTime":2300.629,"body":"they have to discover, chances are"},{"startTime":2300.659,"endTime":2304.099,"body":"that they're going to be caught up"},{"startTime":2300.659,"endTime":2304.099,"body":"into the questions of discovery that"},{"startTime":2304.109,"endTime":2309.219,"body":"that will draw enough energy for them"},{"startTime":2304.109,"endTime":2309.219,"body":"to own anything that falls out of it."},{"startTime":2309.519,"endTime":2314.469,"body":"They'll build a relationship with"},{"startTime":2309.519,"endTime":2314.469,"body":"that problem a lot closer and deeper,"},{"startTime":2314.619,"endTime":2319.179,"body":"which is going to be reinforced"},{"startTime":2314.619,"endTime":2319.179,"body":"with organic thought process, right?"},{"startTime":2319.239,"endTime":2324.429,"body":"As opposed to, I have to do this so"},{"startTime":2319.239,"endTime":2324.429,"body":"that you, you have a good check box"},{"startTime":2324.429,"endTime":2327.499,"body":"to give me on the bonus increase"},{"startTime":2324.429,"endTime":2327.499,"body":"or something like that, right?"},{"startTime":2327.649,"endTime":2332.419,"body":"But, but as far as visibility in"},{"startTime":2327.649,"endTime":2332.419,"body":"across the org, I think one thing"},{"startTime":2332.429,"endTime":2337.229,"body":"to recognize is, and, and we can, we"},{"startTime":2332.429,"endTime":2337.229,"body":"can see it by the ways that senior"},{"startTime":2337.229,"endTime":2338.749,"body":"leaders in the organizations work."},{"startTime":2338.899,"endTime":2342.769,"body":"A lot of them, they don't care what's"},{"startTime":2338.899,"endTime":2342.769,"body":"happening until there's a red flag."},{"startTime":2342.919,"endTime":2347.619,"body":"Or until they can't comprehend"},{"startTime":2342.919,"endTime":2347.619,"body":"or can't get a direct answer."},{"startTime":2347.769,"endTime":2352.319,"body":"However, the way companies work"},{"startTime":2347.769,"endTime":2352.319,"body":"a lot of times is very imprecise."},{"startTime":2352.469,"endTime":2359.004,"body":"I'm a CTO, a CEO says, Hey this sale that"},{"startTime":2352.469,"endTime":2359.004,"body":"we closed, we got to realize this revenue."},{"startTime":2359.154,"endTime":2362.794,"body":"So onboarding of this customer"},{"startTime":2359.154,"endTime":2362.794,"body":"by such and such date."},{"startTime":2363.124,"endTime":2363.844,"body":"How are we doing with that?"},{"startTime":2365.409,"endTime":2368.609,"body":"The CTO is going to turn around and"},{"startTime":2365.409,"endTime":2368.609,"body":"go to his directors to VP, right?"},{"startTime":2368.789,"endTime":2370.079,"body":"VP is going to go to the directors."},{"startTime":2370.349,"endTime":2372.019,"body":"Directors are going to go to the managers."},{"startTime":2372.294,"endTime":2375.214,"body":"So that's how we're actually"},{"startTime":2372.294,"endTime":2375.214,"body":"collating that information."},{"startTime":2375.364,"endTime":2378.644,"body":"Okay, the alternative to that,"},{"startTime":2375.364,"endTime":2378.644,"body":"somebody's gonna open up a tool"},{"startTime":2378.644,"endTime":2380.324,"body":"and go, it's 75 percent correct."},{"startTime":2380.324,"endTime":2380.994,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":2381.014,"endTime":2381.854,"body":"Nobody knows, right?"},{"startTime":2381.864,"endTime":2383.404,"body":"So we were 75 percent there."},{"startTime":2383.554,"endTime":2385.874,"body":"These are the tools that are"},{"startTime":2383.554,"endTime":2385.874,"body":"being sold right now, right?"},{"startTime":2385.904,"endTime":2387.294,"body":"A place where you get to..."},{"startTime":2387.584,"endTime":2391.434,"body":"Move around Gantt charts and update a"},{"startTime":2387.584,"endTime":2391.434,"body":"lot of, a lot of percentages, which have"},{"startTime":2391.494,"endTime":2394.424,"body":"no idea where you actually are, right?"},{"startTime":2394.524,"endTime":2396.214,"body":"So you, you have two avenues."},{"startTime":2396.224,"endTime":2400.264,"body":"You can either go and ask for"},{"startTime":2396.224,"endTime":2400.264,"body":"reports and then you collate the"},{"startTime":2400.604,"endTime":2401.454,"body":"PowerPoints."},{"startTime":2401.554,"endTime":2405.154,"body":"Or I'm going to use this tool that"},{"startTime":2401.554,"endTime":2405.154,"body":"everybody lies to anyway, right?"},{"startTime":2405.164,"endTime":2408.264,"body":"And I think, I think we've grown"},{"startTime":2405.164,"endTime":2408.264,"body":"quite a bit as an industry."},{"startTime":2408.264,"endTime":2413.624,"body":"So isn't that something that we can"},{"startTime":2408.264,"endTime":2413.624,"body":"come up with a scientific way or I mean,"},{"startTime":2413.634,"endTime":2415.624,"body":"and the good, the good answer is yes."},{"startTime":2415.774,"endTime":2416.554,"body":"The right answer is yes."},{"startTime":2416.554,"endTime":2418.074,"body":"I mean AI is on the cusp."},{"startTime":2418.314,"endTime":2421.464,"body":"It can detect a lot patterns"},{"startTime":2418.314,"endTime":2421.464,"body":"and trends and things like that."},{"startTime":2421.614,"endTime":2423.904,"body":"And we're, we're going"},{"startTime":2421.614,"endTime":2423.904,"body":"to see that transition."},{"startTime":2423.904,"endTime":2424.454,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2424.604,"endTime":2428.024,"body":"You know, hopefully they'll take away from"},{"startTime":2424.604,"endTime":2428.024,"body":"the legacy bloatware that we're, we're"},{"startTime":2428.024,"endTime":2430.584,"body":"using in, at least in, in the engineering."},{"startTime":2430.874,"endTime":2430.974,"body":"I"},{"startTime":2430.974,"endTime":2431.404,"body":"hope so."},{"startTime":2431.584,"endTime":2434.034,"body":"I can't wait till the end"},{"startTime":2431.584,"endTime":2434.034,"body":"of Watermelon Reports."},{"startTime":2434.204,"endTime":2435.844,"body":"Oh, I thought you were going"},{"startTime":2434.204,"endTime":2435.844,"body":"to say the end of JIRA."},{"startTime":2435.844,"endTime":2436.084,"body":"The end of"},{"startTime":2436.084,"endTime":2437.224,"body":"JIRA, love that too."},{"startTime":2437.374,"endTime":2439.404,"body":"We're going to, we're going to have"},{"startTime":2437.374,"endTime":2439.404,"body":"to wait a long time for that one."},{"startTime":2439.554,"endTime":2439.994,"body":"Well,"},{"startTime":2440.144,"endTime":2441.604,"body":"I'll be here patiently waiting."},{"startTime":2441.604,"endTime":2445.384,"body":"We explored a ton of"},{"startTime":2441.604,"endTime":2445.384,"body":"stops along the journey."},{"startTime":2445.444,"endTime":2445.744,"body":"We did."},{"startTime":2445.749,"endTime":2448.044,"body":"Including, including like"},{"startTime":2445.749,"endTime":2448.044,"body":"the, the communicate."},{"startTime":2448.074,"endTime":2451.254,"body":"Like I feel, I, I feel like I"},{"startTime":2448.074,"endTime":2451.254,"body":"wheel a whole podcast back and just"},{"startTime":2451.254,"endTime":2454.374,"body":"talk about changing communication"},{"startTime":2451.254,"endTime":2454.374,"body":"style and learning that skill."},{"startTime":2454.494,"endTime":2455.244,"body":"I still want to talk."},{"startTime":2455.394,"endTime":2459.664,"body":"A ton more about that investment the"},{"startTime":2455.394,"endTime":2459.664,"body":"tools that you use a journey along the"},{"startTime":2459.664,"endTime":2461.364,"body":"way figuring out what problems to work on."},{"startTime":2461.394,"endTime":2463.554,"body":"There's a million different"},{"startTime":2461.394,"endTime":2463.554,"body":"things, Alex, that I, that we"},{"startTime":2463.554,"endTime":2464.884,"body":"didn't get into . Definitely."},{"startTime":2464.884,"endTime":2467.554,"body":"There's a, there's future"},{"startTime":2464.884,"endTime":2467.554,"body":"podcasts coming on some of those,"},{"startTime":2467.554,"endTime":2468.844,"body":"at least I made some notes."},{"startTime":2468.994,"endTime":2473.044,"body":"But yeah, thank you so much for"},{"startTime":2468.994,"endTime":2473.044,"body":"for coming and lending us your your"},{"startTime":2473.044,"endTime":2473.454,"body":"wisdom."},{"startTime":2473.794,"endTime":2475.734,"body":"I don't know if that's a lot of wisdom."},{"startTime":2475.734,"endTime":2479.134,"body":"It's a lot of pains that I'm just sharing,"},{"startTime":2475.734,"endTime":2479.134,"body":"but Thanks for lending us your pain."},{"startTime":2479.284,"endTime":2481.144,"body":"That's where most of"},{"startTime":2479.284,"endTime":2481.144,"body":"the wisdom comes from."},{"startTime":2481.294,"endTime":2483.354,"body":"Yeah thanks for the invitation, guys."},{"startTime":2483.354,"endTime":2487.574,"body":"I, I really enjoy being here, and I"},{"startTime":2483.354,"endTime":2487.574,"body":"guess for anybody watching if you have"},{"startTime":2487.574,"endTime":2491.934,"body":"questions you know, it looks like we could"},{"startTime":2487.574,"endTime":2491.934,"body":"probably get a little bit of help from you"},{"startTime":2492.174,"endTime":2493.974,"body":"telling us what you'd rather hear about."},{"startTime":2494.254,"endTime":2497.984,"body":"There's lots of topics that were"},{"startTime":2494.254,"endTime":2497.984,"body":"discussed and you know, if anybody's"},{"startTime":2497.984,"endTime":2501.714,"body":"at all interested, I'm happy to connect"},{"startTime":2497.984,"endTime":2501.714,"body":"again and explore anything else."},{"startTime":2501.724,"endTime":2501.994,"body":"So"},{"startTime":2502.004,"endTime":2503.244,"body":"we would love to have you back."},{"startTime":2503.264,"endTime":2505.904,"body":"If you have any questions, as you"},{"startTime":2503.264,"endTime":2505.904,"body":"said, put them in the chat below and"},{"startTime":2505.904,"endTime":2507.538,"body":"don't forget to subscribe and like"}]}