{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":5.029,"body":"Eric Reese in the Lean Startup defines"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":5.029,"body":"the MVP as the fastest way to get through"},{"startTime":5.029,"endTime":9.109,"body":"the build, measure, learn, feedback"},{"startTime":5.029,"endTime":9.109,"body":"loop with the minimal amount of effort."},{"startTime":9.289,"endTime":13.479,"body":"Its goal is to test fundamental"},{"startTime":9.289,"endTime":13.479,"body":"business hypotheses."},{"startTime":13.679,"endTime":18.729,"body":"First of all, I just want to point out how"},{"startTime":13.679,"endTime":18.729,"body":"fun it is to say hypotheses and plural."},{"startTime":18.819,"endTime":23.634,"body":"I wanted to talk about, the topic of MVP"},{"startTime":18.819,"endTime":23.634,"body":"because I realized we've actually not had."},{"startTime":23.924,"endTime":28.904,"body":"An episode on MVP and also I've been"},{"startTime":23.924,"endTime":28.904,"body":"seeing a lot of posts and I've been"},{"startTime":28.914,"endTime":32.944,"body":"reading a lot of discussion between"},{"startTime":28.914,"endTime":32.944,"body":"product managers recently talking about"},{"startTime":32.964,"endTime":38.919,"body":"MVP in the understanding that it is"},{"startTime":32.964,"endTime":38.919,"body":"sometimes required to fully build many"},{"startTime":38.919,"endTime":44.024,"body":"features And call it an MVP and I want"},{"startTime":38.919,"endTime":44.024,"body":"to challenge that idea in this podcast."},{"startTime":44.064,"endTime":44.864,"body":"I want to explore it."},{"startTime":45.014,"endTime":47.444,"body":"I want to give it a fair shake"},{"startTime":45.014,"endTime":47.444,"body":"and explore it in this podcast."},{"startTime":47.444,"endTime":48.694,"body":"Yeah, I like that."},{"startTime":48.694,"endTime":49.904,"body":"So I agree with you."},{"startTime":49.904,"endTime":53.654,"body":"I've seen a lot lately out there"},{"startTime":49.904,"endTime":53.654,"body":"on the worldwide interwebs where"},{"startTime":53.654,"endTime":58.004,"body":"people say, let's just rename"},{"startTime":53.654,"endTime":58.004,"body":"what used to be called MVP."},{"startTime":59.034,"endTime":60.534,"body":"And call it something else."},{"startTime":60.764,"endTime":67.469,"body":"You know M V E minimal viable"},{"startTime":60.764,"endTime":67.469,"body":"experience minimal viable, , hypothesis."},{"startTime":67.559,"endTime":69.309,"body":"I've seen so many different variation."},{"startTime":69.309,"endTime":70.609,"body":"I lose track of viable"},{"startTime":70.619,"endTime":71.139,"body":"features."},{"startTime":71.289,"endTime":71.639,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":71.669,"endTime":71.879,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":72.029,"endTime":72.949,"body":"Product increment."},{"startTime":72.979,"endTime":76.479,"body":"I've seen a variation that"},{"startTime":72.979,"endTime":76.479,"body":"like so many variations now."},{"startTime":76.564,"endTime":79.184,"body":"I see this topic being"},{"startTime":76.564,"endTime":79.184,"body":"covered in two points."},{"startTime":79.354,"endTime":84.144,"body":"One point are the people that are for"},{"startTime":79.354,"endTime":84.144,"body":"expanding the term MVP and making the term"},{"startTime":84.144,"endTime":88.664,"body":"MVP basically elastic you make it as big"},{"startTime":84.144,"endTime":88.664,"body":"as you want, make it as small as you want."},{"startTime":88.664,"endTime":89.304,"body":"It's up to you."},{"startTime":89.304,"endTime":90.334,"body":"Everyone's different."},{"startTime":90.484,"endTime":92.584,"body":"We're all special and unique"},{"startTime":90.484,"endTime":92.584,"body":"and we're all different."},{"startTime":92.724,"endTime":93.184,"body":"Om, that's"},{"startTime":93.184,"endTime":93.574,"body":"what I'm saying."},{"startTime":93.614,"endTime":98.004,"body":"As opposed to be, as opposed to a focused"},{"startTime":93.614,"endTime":98.004,"body":"definition of what it really should be"},{"startTime":98.004,"endTime":100.254,"body":"and what it's supposed to really enable,"},{"startTime":100.294,"endTime":100.594,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":100.614,"endTime":100.914,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":100.914,"endTime":101.294,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":101.344,"endTime":105.684,"body":"As a, and the alternate of Hey, do"},{"startTime":101.344,"endTime":105.684,"body":"whatever works for your company."},{"startTime":105.684,"endTime":109.264,"body":"As long as nobody's complaining and"},{"startTime":105.684,"endTime":109.264,"body":"you still got a job and money to burn."},{"startTime":109.274,"endTime":110.634,"body":"Like, Hey, it sounds good."},{"startTime":110.824,"endTime":113.544,"body":"As opposed to, as opposed"},{"startTime":110.824,"endTime":113.544,"body":"to having the goal to test a"},{"startTime":113.544,"endTime":115.284,"body":"fundamental business hypothesis."},{"startTime":115.434,"endTime":115.674,"body":"yEah."},{"startTime":115.799,"endTime":119.609,"body":"So I would like to segment the"},{"startTime":115.799,"endTime":119.609,"body":"podcast into two parts, one part"},{"startTime":119.619,"endTime":123.199,"body":"for expanding the term and the"},{"startTime":119.619,"endTime":123.199,"body":"other part for limiting the term."},{"startTime":123.349,"endTime":126.769,"body":"Okay, so I guess one for expanding"},{"startTime":123.349,"endTime":126.769,"body":"the term and the other against it."},{"startTime":126.779,"endTime":127.459,"body":"Against it, yes."},{"startTime":127.469,"endTime":128.289,"body":"Basically what I'm saying."},{"startTime":128.439,"endTime":134.449,"body":"I think the juicier part is to bring up"},{"startTime":128.439,"endTime":134.449,"body":"all of the reasons for expanding the term."},{"startTime":134.689,"endTime":138.179,"body":"Because as you can already"},{"startTime":134.689,"endTime":138.179,"body":"tell, I am not a big fan."},{"startTime":138.329,"endTime":141.579,"body":"Unless you have an infinite supply of"},{"startTime":138.329,"endTime":141.579,"body":"money and patience from leadership."},{"startTime":141.729,"endTime":142.369,"body":"Which doesn't really"},{"startTime":142.369,"endTime":145.849,"body":"happen all that often outside of"},{"startTime":142.369,"endTime":145.849,"body":"specific segments of industry."},{"startTime":145.879,"endTime":148.599,"body":"You know, we talked about this"},{"startTime":145.879,"endTime":148.599,"body":"before the podcast how you"},{"startTime":148.599,"endTime":150.629,"body":"could possibly get away with it."},{"startTime":150.729,"endTime":154.179,"body":"Although it's getting more difficult"},{"startTime":150.729,"endTime":154.179,"body":"if you're in the government."},{"startTime":154.359,"endTime":154.699,"body":"space."},{"startTime":154.799,"endTime":155.419,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":155.469,"endTime":159.289,"body":"I was reading today how the Department"},{"startTime":155.469,"endTime":159.289,"body":"of Homeland Security is now adopting"},{"startTime":159.329,"endTime":162.069,"body":"agile . So it is proliferating."},{"startTime":162.389,"endTime":163.169,"body":"But anyway, yes."},{"startTime":163.179,"endTime":166.119,"body":"So if you can get away with"},{"startTime":163.179,"endTime":166.119,"body":"it, okay good luck to you."},{"startTime":166.269,"endTime":167.419,"body":"Most of us cannot."},{"startTime":167.569,"endTime":169.259,"body":"I Mean, even they can't"},{"startTime":167.569,"endTime":169.259,"body":"be honest, like it's"},{"startTime":169.409,"endTime":173.729,"body":"Yeah, that's, that's how like the, the"},{"startTime":169.409,"endTime":173.729,"body":"big boys you know, the big contractors"},{"startTime":173.729,"endTime":176.929,"body":"that are out there who everyone should"},{"startTime":173.729,"endTime":176.929,"body":"know that I'm not going to name right"},{"startTime":176.929,"endTime":180.349,"body":"now can get a contract for a hundred"},{"startTime":176.929,"endTime":180.349,"body":"million dollars and then two years"},{"startTime":180.349,"endTime":183.019,"body":"pass and they've delivered no software"},{"startTime":180.349,"endTime":183.019,"body":"like that's they're still working on"},{"startTime":183.019,"endTime":183.529,"body":"MVP."},{"startTime":183.529,"endTime":186.299,"body":"They're working on MVP,"},{"startTime":183.529,"endTime":186.299,"body":"but I agree with you there."},{"startTime":186.309,"endTime":187.449,"body":"Days are number two."},{"startTime":187.449,"endTime":191.009,"body":"I think they're walking, taking a"},{"startTime":187.449,"endTime":191.009,"body":"long walk of a short pier, honestly."},{"startTime":191.159,"endTime":194.359,"body":"You know, it won't be long"},{"startTime":191.159,"endTime":194.359,"body":"before they will be extinct."},{"startTime":194.549,"endTime":197.959,"body":"So let's, let's dig into some"},{"startTime":194.549,"endTime":197.959,"body":"reasons , the first one that, that"},{"startTime":197.959,"endTime":202.459,"body":"people normally bring up in this"},{"startTime":197.959,"endTime":202.459,"body":"category is I Can't make an MVP with"},{"startTime":202.469,"endTime":209.229,"body":"one feature because my users or my"},{"startTime":202.469,"endTime":209.229,"body":"market, demand everything all at once."},{"startTime":209.379,"endTime":209.779,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":209.779,"endTime":213.229,"body":"So how do you, how do you know that"},{"startTime":209.779,"endTime":213.229,"body":"they demand all of that at once?"},{"startTime":213.229,"endTime":215.539,"body":"I mean, what's the rationale behind that?"},{"startTime":215.549,"endTime":217.189,"body":"Is it just a gut feel on your part?"},{"startTime":217.189,"endTime":218.129,"body":"Well, I've told you."},{"startTime":218.139,"endTime":218.801,"body":"See, I just told you."},{"startTime":218.801,"endTime":220.069,"body":"You've told me, so I believe it."},{"startTime":220.079,"endTime":220.759,"body":"I have the budget."},{"startTime":220.759,"endTime":221.759,"body":"I told you what to do."},{"startTime":221.969,"endTime":223.159,"body":"If you have the budget, I'll be"},{"startTime":223.159,"endTime":224.429,"body":"happy to burn it for you."},{"startTime":224.669,"endTime":225.509,"body":"Or on your behalf."},{"startTime":225.559,"endTime":228.129,"body":"This is so like, again, I"},{"startTime":225.559,"endTime":228.129,"body":"just outlined an assumption."},{"startTime":228.199,"endTime":228.559,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":228.879,"endTime":232.299,"body":"My assumption is a user"},{"startTime":228.879,"endTime":232.299,"body":"won't use our software."},{"startTime":232.469,"endTime":233.769,"body":"Won't be interested in our software."},{"startTime":233.819,"endTime":237.049,"body":"Won't look at it unless it"},{"startTime":233.819,"endTime":237.049,"body":"has quote all of the features."},{"startTime":237.269,"endTime":240.609,"body":"So again, you could break my assumption"},{"startTime":237.269,"endTime":240.609,"body":"into many, many little assumptions"},{"startTime":240.609,"endTime":241.999,"body":"of like which feature, right?"},{"startTime":242.149,"endTime":243.528,"body":"Right, which users?"},{"startTime":243.529,"endTime":244.239,"body":"What kind of users?"},{"startTime":244.419,"endTime":246.009,"body":"At what point in their journey?"},{"startTime":246.159,"endTime":248.619,"body":"Come on, we can go down"},{"startTime":246.159,"endTime":248.619,"body":"this path all day long."},{"startTime":248.769,"endTime":252.459,"body":"You need to validate each and every"},{"startTime":248.769,"endTime":252.459,"body":"one of these micro assumptions."},{"startTime":252.509,"endTime":255.839,"body":"If you're not doing that, then"},{"startTime":252.509,"endTime":255.839,"body":"you're going to basically get"},{"startTime":255.839,"endTime":257.014,"body":"stuck pretty quickly, right?"},{"startTime":257.024,"endTime":258.124,"body":"You'll come across a pothole."},{"startTime":258.274,"endTime":259.474,"body":"That's gonna send you flying."},{"startTime":259.564,"endTime":259.864,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":260.014,"endTime":262.864,"body":"The other question I would bring"},{"startTime":260.014,"endTime":262.864,"body":"up here is why are you trying to"},{"startTime":262.864,"endTime":267.634,"body":"enter a market with an MVP that's"},{"startTime":262.864,"endTime":267.634,"body":"flooded with competitive products?"},{"startTime":267.784,"endTime":268.314,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":268.314,"endTime":268.934,"body":"Well, you may have a"},{"startTime":268.944,"endTime":269.704,"body":"niche, right?"},{"startTime":269.734,"endTime":273.144,"body":"And let's just grant them that you may"},{"startTime":269.734,"endTime":273.144,"body":"have a niche, but then if you do, you"},{"startTime":273.144,"endTime":275.554,"body":"already know what the others aren't doing."},{"startTime":275.664,"endTime":277.124,"body":"The other competitors in the space."},{"startTime":277.134,"endTime":277.404,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":277.444,"endTime":277.644,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":277.764,"endTime":279.334,"body":"So focus just on"},{"startTime":279.344,"endTime":279.784,"body":"that."},{"startTime":279.814,"endTime":283.344,"body":"I want to point out, like you started"},{"startTime":279.814,"endTime":283.344,"body":"off like debating what I was about to"},{"startTime":283.344,"endTime":286.824,"body":"say, you're like, you're like, you're"},{"startTime":283.344,"endTime":286.824,"body":"like, you can enter a crowded market"},{"startTime":286.824,"endTime":288.944,"body":"where everyone's has the same features."},{"startTime":288.964,"endTime":290.654,"body":"Basically, they're all"},{"startTime":288.964,"endTime":290.654,"body":"wrapped in the same."},{"startTime":290.804,"endTime":295.574,"body":"You know, pretty packaging, but they"},{"startTime":290.804,"endTime":295.574,"body":"don't have one thing that you've outlined."},{"startTime":295.814,"endTime":299.134,"body":"So you build your MVP around the one"},{"startTime":295.814,"endTime":299.134,"body":"thing that they don't have, and then"},{"startTime":299.134,"endTime":304.284,"body":"you start adding the pieces that they"},{"startTime":299.134,"endTime":304.284,"body":"do have the products to kind of crowbar"},{"startTime":304.314,"endTime":306.624,"body":"them away from their current offerings."},{"startTime":306.894,"endTime":309.794,"body":"So again, like we're back to"},{"startTime":306.894,"endTime":309.794,"body":"like, we started with like,"},{"startTime":309.794,"endTime":311.214,"body":"well, my users have expectations."},{"startTime":311.224,"endTime":314.444,"body":"They had, they need everything all"},{"startTime":311.224,"endTime":314.444,"body":"at once, all at the same time, but"},{"startTime":314.444,"endTime":315.594,"body":"also they don't have this thing."},{"startTime":315.744,"endTime":316.084,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":316.234,"endTime":316.704,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":316.794,"endTime":318.894,"body":"So what are you going to"},{"startTime":316.794,"endTime":318.894,"body":"focus on first, right?"},{"startTime":319.019,"endTime":324.019,"body":"Let's cut over to another one that I think"},{"startTime":319.019,"endTime":324.019,"body":"is legitimate, which is investor interest."},{"startTime":324.359,"endTime":326.909,"body":"This is the, this is"},{"startTime":324.359,"endTime":326.909,"body":"the, the Dropbox example."},{"startTime":326.909,"endTime":329.089,"body":"In the book he gives"},{"startTime":326.909,"endTime":329.089,"body":"an example of Dropbox."},{"startTime":329.189,"endTime":332.669,"body":"In the Dropbox example he gives"},{"startTime":329.189,"endTime":332.669,"body":"in the book, that Eric Ries gives"},{"startTime":332.669,"endTime":336.299,"body":"in the book, he's talking about"},{"startTime":332.669,"endTime":336.299,"body":"Drew Huston, the CEO of Dropbox."},{"startTime":336.499,"endTime":340.669,"body":"He believes that file synchronization"},{"startTime":336.499,"endTime":340.669,"body":"is a problem that people have that"},{"startTime":340.669,"endTime":343.489,"body":"people don't realize is a problem."},{"startTime":343.639,"endTime":347.929,"body":"And In the book he outlines that the"},{"startTime":343.639,"endTime":347.929,"body":"investors that he pitched the product"},{"startTime":347.939,"endTime":352.679,"body":"to were not keen He said Houston learned"},{"startTime":347.939,"endTime":352.679,"body":"when he tried to raise venture capital"},{"startTime":352.679,"endTime":357.009,"body":"in the meeting after meeting, investors"},{"startTime":352.679,"endTime":357.009,"body":"would explain that this quote market space"},{"startTime":357.199,"endTime":361.239,"body":"was crowded with existing products and"},{"startTime":357.199,"endTime":361.239,"body":"none of them had made very much money and"},{"startTime":361.239,"endTime":363.169,"body":"the problem wasn't a very important one."},{"startTime":363.319,"endTime":365.929,"body":"Drew would ask, have you personally"},{"startTime":363.319,"endTime":365.929,"body":"tried those other products?"},{"startTime":366.204,"endTime":369.604,"body":"When they would say yes, he'd ask,"},{"startTime":366.204,"endTime":369.604,"body":"did they work seamlessly for you?"},{"startTime":369.754,"endTime":371.014,"body":"And the answer is always no."},{"startTime":371.214,"endTime":374.364,"body":"So he realized that he, he basically"},{"startTime":371.214,"endTime":374.364,"body":"had to train the investors of"},{"startTime":374.364,"endTime":376.714,"body":"what they were looking for,"},{"startTime":374.364,"endTime":376.714,"body":"what seamless would look like."},{"startTime":376.864,"endTime":380.614,"body":"And that's, that's where the"},{"startTime":376.864,"endTime":380.614,"body":"Dropbox video of their product,"},{"startTime":380.654,"endTime":382.244,"body":"which of course was a fake."},{"startTime":382.534,"endTime":383.104,"body":"Well, yeah."},{"startTime":383.144,"endTime":386.734,"body":"Also drew was resolute in his"},{"startTime":383.144,"endTime":386.734,"body":"conviction that that a seamless"},{"startTime":386.734,"endTime":388.504,"body":"experience is what's going to sell."},{"startTime":388.824,"endTime":389.254,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":389.484,"endTime":394.534,"body":"And he just had to do a, I guess, a job"},{"startTime":389.484,"endTime":394.534,"body":"of convincing the investors that that's"},{"startTime":394.534,"endTime":396.234,"body":"exactly what was needed out there."},{"startTime":396.234,"endTime":396.484,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":396.544,"endTime":398.554,"body":"And they didn't see it that way initially."},{"startTime":398.574,"endTime":398.804,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":398.954,"endTime":399.194,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":399.224,"endTime":404.069,"body":"Well, again, the video that he narrated,"},{"startTime":399.224,"endTime":404.069,"body":"the video, the three minute demonstration"},{"startTime":404.219,"endTime":406.139,"body":"of how the technology would work."},{"startTime":406.289,"endTime":409.294,"body":"His it, it wasn't working"},{"startTime":406.289,"endTime":409.294,"body":"finished it's not like he built"},{"startTime":409.344,"endTime":410.894,"body":"all of Dropbox and that was not"},{"startTime":410.894,"endTime":412.834,"body":"even an MVP at that point, right?"},{"startTime":412.834,"endTime":414.824,"body":"You don't have a P"},{"startTime":412.834,"endTime":414.824,"body":"well, there's no product"},{"startTime":414.824,"endTime":420.659,"body":"his, his, his MVP was an MVP , from"},{"startTime":414.824,"endTime":420.659,"body":"the perspective of you're you're"},{"startTime":420.669,"endTime":422.549,"body":"testing business viability."},{"startTime":422.609,"endTime":422.999,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":423.149,"endTime":427.834,"body":"You've shown your investors They're not"},{"startTime":423.149,"endTime":427.834,"body":"convinced of your business viability so"},{"startTime":427.984,"endTime":432.184,"body":"You need to go develop a better MVP to"},{"startTime":427.984,"endTime":432.184,"body":"convince them of your business viability."},{"startTime":432.334,"endTime":434.954,"body":"Again, it's, it's, it's because"},{"startTime":432.334,"endTime":434.954,"body":"he was trying to get money from"},{"startTime":434.954,"endTime":439.564,"body":"investors to go build a product,"},{"startTime":434.954,"endTime":439.564,"body":"but at this stage, his MVP was about"},{"startTime":439.644,"endTime":444.084,"body":"proving feasibility to investors and"},{"startTime":439.644,"endTime":444.084,"body":"they didn't understand the market."},{"startTime":444.274,"endTime":447.904,"body":"They didn't understand the experience"},{"startTime":444.274,"endTime":447.904,"body":"he was shooting for, so he created a"},{"startTime":447.904,"endTime":452.576,"body":"video demonstration that helped them"},{"startTime":447.904,"endTime":452.576,"body":"put the put all the pieces together."},{"startTime":452.576,"endTime":452.894,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":452.894,"endTime":456.703,"body":"yeah, the important thing here"},{"startTime":452.894,"endTime":456.703,"body":"is the video is not the MVP."},{"startTime":456.853,"endTime":462.193,"body":"Right, the video simply illustrates"},{"startTime":456.853,"endTime":462.193,"body":"there is a market need and the investors"},{"startTime":462.233,"endTime":466.393,"body":"can clearly see that through the video"},{"startTime":462.233,"endTime":466.393,"body":"because he, he did put the video out"},{"startTime":466.543,"endTime":468.613,"body":"that was not the product though, right?"},{"startTime":468.693,"endTime":473.923,"body":"Initially it was just enough to make sure"},{"startTime":468.693,"endTime":473.923,"body":"that the investors bought into the concept"},{"startTime":473.943,"endTime":475.793,"body":"so they would invest a little bit more."},{"startTime":475.943,"endTime":476.053,"body":"I"},{"startTime":476.053,"endTime":478.473,"body":"think it was the product"},{"startTime":476.053,"endTime":478.473,"body":"with a video was the product."},{"startTime":478.473,"endTime":482.293,"body":"I think it was because he was, he was"},{"startTime":478.473,"endTime":482.293,"body":"selling that product to the investors."},{"startTime":482.443,"endTime":483.233,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":483.243,"endTime":486.303,"body":"So that wasn't the Dropbox"},{"startTime":483.243,"endTime":486.303,"body":"product for the consumers is what"},{"startTime":486.303,"endTime":486.803,"body":"I'm saying."},{"startTime":486.873,"endTime":488.053,"body":"Yeah, no, absolutely not."},{"startTime":488.073,"endTime":488.393,"body":"No, it wasn't."},{"startTime":488.603,"endTime":489.053,"body":"No, you,"},{"startTime":489.203,"endTime":491.613,"body":"it was really just a way"},{"startTime":489.203,"endTime":491.613,"body":"to convince the investors."},{"startTime":491.633,"endTime":492.013,"body":"You make a"},{"startTime":492.013,"endTime":492.813,"body":"really great point."},{"startTime":492.898,"endTime":498.218,"body":"Which I hadn't thought about up until"},{"startTime":492.898,"endTime":498.218,"body":"right now, which is what audience is this?"},{"startTime":498.368,"endTime":503.568,"body":"A quote product of this MVP for"},{"startTime":498.368,"endTime":503.568,"body":"right because again, a lot of these"},{"startTime":503.658,"endTime":507.198,"body":"pushback items that we're outlining,"},{"startTime":503.658,"endTime":507.198,"body":"assume that you're building something"},{"startTime":507.348,"endTime":510.888,"body":"and handing it over to the person"},{"startTime":507.348,"endTime":510.888,"body":"that's going to buy it right?"},{"startTime":511.188,"endTime":512.078,"body":"Not necessarily."},{"startTime":512.078,"endTime":517.898,"body":"So in, in this case, this, your MVP,"},{"startTime":512.078,"endTime":517.898,"body":"your product was a video, one time video,"},{"startTime":518.048,"endTime":521.338,"body":"you mocked up a bunch of screenshots"},{"startTime":518.048,"endTime":521.338,"body":"and made it made magic happen to look"},{"startTime":521.338,"endTime":522.678,"body":"like it was working as a product."},{"startTime":522.828,"endTime":526.098,"body":"So that you could demonstrate the"},{"startTime":522.828,"endTime":526.098,"body":"experience to someone who could not."},{"startTime":526.278,"endTime":530.628,"body":"They, they, they couldn't understand the"},{"startTime":526.278,"endTime":530.628,"body":"story in their head, so you had to learn a"},{"startTime":530.633,"endTime":534.813,"body":"different storytelling medium to help them"},{"startTime":530.633,"endTime":534.813,"body":"understand that this business is viable."},{"startTime":534.963,"endTime":535.023,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":535.053,"endTime":539.313,"body":"So you can take a risk to go build a"},{"startTime":535.053,"endTime":539.313,"body":"real product, to go explore another user."},{"startTime":539.463,"endTime":539.943,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":539.943,"endTime":540.903,"body":"Like that, that's really"},{"startTime":540.903,"endTime":544.613,"body":"the product leap though, from my,"},{"startTime":540.903,"endTime":544.613,"body":"from my definitional sort of stance."},{"startTime":544.763,"endTime":549.373,"body":"When he created the video, it"},{"startTime":544.763,"endTime":549.373,"body":"wasn't a, even a pre MVP, if"},{"startTime":549.373,"endTime":550.913,"body":"there's such a thing of Dropbox."},{"startTime":550.933,"endTime":553.993,"body":"That was just a way to convince"},{"startTime":550.933,"endTime":553.993,"body":"the investors to give him"},{"startTime":553.993,"endTime":555.623,"body":"enough money so he could create."},{"startTime":555.773,"endTime":559.793,"body":"The former right to, to create an"},{"startTime":555.773,"endTime":559.793,"body":"MVP or pre MVP, whatever it is."},{"startTime":559.973,"endTime":562.433,"body":"Just enough money to"},{"startTime":559.973,"endTime":562.433,"body":"keep going, basically."},{"startTime":562.463,"endTime":562.583,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":562.823,"endTime":564.173,"body":"And that's, that's a good point."},{"startTime":564.233,"endTime":568.643,"body":"Your, your investors have to"},{"startTime":564.233,"endTime":568.643,"body":"be convinced, even if you are"},{"startTime":568.643,"endTime":572.963,"body":"completely like you believe in"},{"startTime":568.643,"endTime":572.963,"body":"this, they don't, what do you do?"},{"startTime":573.053,"endTime":576.803,"body":"Do you, do you spend the money, which"},{"startTime":573.053,"endTime":576.803,"body":"you don't have, by the way, in creating"},{"startTime":576.863,"endTime":581.033,"body":"a very small sliver of functionality"},{"startTime":576.863,"endTime":581.033,"body":"and show it to your investors."},{"startTime":581.033,"endTime":582.323,"body":"I mean, rather than do that."},{"startTime":582.473,"endTime":586.663,"body":"You know, drew came up with this idea"},{"startTime":582.473,"endTime":586.663,"body":"of creating a video and it worked."},{"startTime":586.953,"endTime":587.843,"body":"That's a product to me."},{"startTime":587.993,"endTime":591.643,"body":"Well, it's a product for a non"},{"startTime":587.993,"endTime":591.643,"body":"paying audience in that case."},{"startTime":591.653,"endTime":591.863,"body":"I,"},{"startTime":591.903,"endTime":593.003,"body":"I a hundred percent agree."},{"startTime":593.013,"endTime":593.753,"body":"Well, actually."},{"startTime":593.903,"endTime":594.453,"body":"Although they did"},{"startTime":594.453,"endTime":594.923,"body":"pay because they"},{"startTime":594.923,"endTime":597.543,"body":"invested I was gonna say I"},{"startTime":594.923,"endTime":597.543,"body":"guess are paying because they're"},{"startTime":597.543,"endTime":601.103,"body":"paying by investing in What your"},{"startTime":597.543,"endTime":601.103,"body":"company could be in the future?"},{"startTime":601.113,"endTime":604.383,"body":"I mean, this is also this is This"},{"startTime":601.113,"endTime":604.383,"body":"is a Silicon Valley love story here."},{"startTime":604.533,"endTime":607.833,"body":"It is a little bit different than"},{"startTime":604.533,"endTime":607.833,"body":"it's a little divorce from reality"},{"startTime":607.983,"endTime":612.853,"body":"however, the the product to pitch the"},{"startTime":607.983,"endTime":612.853,"body":"investors to get the money Is all that"},{"startTime":612.853,"endTime":614.943,"body":"mattered at that point agreed that"},{"startTime":614.953,"endTime":615.893,"body":"that's all that mattered."},{"startTime":616.153,"endTime":617.773,"body":"Because without that investment,"},{"startTime":616.153,"endTime":617.773,"body":"it's the only product"},{"startTime":617.793,"endTime":618.423,"body":"that existed."},{"startTime":618.433,"endTime":620.103,"body":"It's the only product that"},{"startTime":618.433,"endTime":620.103,"body":"existed at that point."},{"startTime":620.253,"endTime":624.163,"body":"anD then later they, they developed an"},{"startTime":620.253,"endTime":624.163,"body":"actual, like what we think of in, in."},{"startTime":624.313,"endTime":627.323,"body":"You know, software development"},{"startTime":624.313,"endTime":627.323,"body":"as a quote product product, but"},{"startTime":627.473,"endTime":630.233,"body":"it certainly was a product from"},{"startTime":627.473,"endTime":630.233,"body":"the perspective of getting money,"},{"startTime":630.383,"endTime":631.243,"body":"getting money, right?"},{"startTime":631.283,"endTime":631.823,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":631.833,"endTime":634.973,"body":"But the real first MVP for a Dropbox."},{"startTime":635.123,"endTime":636.663,"body":"Wasn't the video necessarily."},{"startTime":636.693,"endTime":640.213,"body":"It was probably just the first version"},{"startTime":636.693,"endTime":640.213,"body":"that did synchronization of files."},{"startTime":640.363,"endTime":643.123,"body":"I'm hung up on the definition"},{"startTime":640.363,"endTime":643.123,"body":"of what a product is, I guess,"},{"startTime":643.123,"endTime":645.203,"body":"in this case, a lot of"},{"startTime":643.123,"endTime":645.203,"body":"people get hung up on that."},{"startTime":645.243,"endTime":645.623,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":645.623,"endTime":649.683,"body":"When I was researching this topic"},{"startTime":645.623,"endTime":649.683,"body":"viable was a big one that people"},{"startTime":649.683,"endTime":653.273,"body":"got hung up on and product was a"},{"startTime":649.683,"endTime":653.273,"body":"big one that people got hung up on"},{"startTime":653.273,"endTime":654.533,"body":"because of what we're talking about."},{"startTime":654.543,"endTime":655.293,"body":"Investor interest."},{"startTime":655.473,"endTime":658.093,"body":"There's also hang on, let"},{"startTime":655.473,"endTime":658.093,"body":"me, let me pivot down here."},{"startTime":658.243,"endTime":662.823,"body":"There's also a, there's also a category"},{"startTime":658.243,"endTime":662.823,"body":"that people will bring up about"},{"startTime":662.873,"endTime":669.003,"body":"monetization to say if you can't turn"},{"startTime":662.873,"endTime":669.003,"body":"around and sell what you developed as is,"},{"startTime":669.153,"endTime":673.213,"body":"it's not an MVP again, that, that, that"},{"startTime":669.153,"endTime":673.213,"body":"talks about that, that product part of it"},{"startTime":673.223,"endTime":678.573,"body":"is you can actually take money from your"},{"startTime":673.223,"endTime":678.573,"body":"MVP people will bring up and say, well,"},{"startTime":678.573,"endTime":682.238,"body":"if you haven't built, The ability to take"},{"startTime":678.573,"endTime":682.238,"body":"money from your product or to be able to"},{"startTime":682.388,"endTime":686.268,"body":"maybe, maybe you're not in a, in a, in a"},{"startTime":682.388,"endTime":686.268,"body":"B2C market, maybe you're in a B2B market."},{"startTime":686.278,"endTime":689.648,"body":"So if you can't actually sell it"},{"startTime":686.278,"endTime":689.648,"body":"to another company and then receive"},{"startTime":689.658,"endTime":692.518,"body":"money for it, like that's not an"},{"startTime":689.658,"endTime":692.518,"body":"MVP, you need to build more features."},{"startTime":692.518,"endTime":694.338,"body":"So the, all the amount of"},{"startTime":692.518,"endTime":694.338,"body":"features you have to have"},{"startTime":694.338,"endTime":696.088,"body":"together with a circle around it."},{"startTime":696.238,"endTime":697.798,"body":"In order to receive money for it."},{"startTime":697.798,"endTime":700.708,"body":"Now that is an MVP because"},{"startTime":697.798,"endTime":700.708,"body":"that is a quote product."},{"startTime":700.718,"endTime":703.523,"body":"There's a lot of people that say that"},{"startTime":700.718,"endTime":703.523,"body":"too that's, which is sort of on in line"},{"startTime":703.523,"endTime":706.613,"body":"with what you're saying, which is like,"},{"startTime":703.523,"endTime":706.613,"body":"well, the video is not your product"},{"startTime":706.613,"endTime":708.113,"body":"because it's not really a product product."},{"startTime":708.313,"endTime":711.113,"body":"All the features together that"},{"startTime":708.313,"endTime":711.113,"body":"you actually could sell and an"},{"startTime":711.123,"endTime":713.413,"body":"end user will pay for with a"},{"startTime":711.123,"endTime":713.413,"body":"credit card or whatever, that's."},{"startTime":713.683,"endTime":714.743,"body":"Cause that's the way Dropbox works."},{"startTime":714.933,"endTime":716.403,"body":"We'll, we'll pay for"},{"startTime":714.933,"endTime":716.403,"body":"it with a credit card."},{"startTime":716.503,"endTime":718.913,"body":"Whatever you need to get"},{"startTime":716.503,"endTime":718.913,"body":"to, to get to monetization."},{"startTime":719.263,"endTime":721.653,"body":"That is your MVP of your product."},{"startTime":721.703,"endTime":727.273,"body":"Probably one of the most significant ones"},{"startTime":721.703,"endTime":727.273,"body":"that I make me kind of sit on the fence."},{"startTime":727.423,"endTime":730.553,"body":"To think about as well, because if"},{"startTime":727.423,"endTime":730.553,"body":"this is the way you look at it of"},{"startTime":730.553,"endTime":734.433,"body":"what a quote product is, then I, I"},{"startTime":730.553,"endTime":734.433,"body":"kind of will agree with you, although"},{"startTime":734.583,"endTime":737.973,"body":"I'm still firmly in the camp of,"},{"startTime":734.583,"endTime":737.973,"body":"nope, the video is, the video is a"},{"startTime":737.973,"endTime":738.443,"body":"product."},{"startTime":738.483,"endTime":741.123,"body":"So, so as a PowerPoint"},{"startTime":738.483,"endTime":741.123,"body":"presentation that you pitch on VCs."},{"startTime":741.143,"endTime":741.583,"body":"Fine."},{"startTime":741.753,"endTime":742.153,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":742.303,"endTime":742.703,"body":"I mean."},{"startTime":742.723,"endTime":747.078,"body":"If it knocks out your business"},{"startTime":742.723,"endTime":747.078,"body":"viability assumption and check and"},{"startTime":747.078,"endTime":749.849,"body":"ticks the box, and it's a PowerPoint."},{"startTime":749.999,"endTime":750.969,"body":"Yes, I'll go with"},{"startTime":750.969,"endTime":751.279,"body":"that"},{"startTime":751.554,"endTime":755.334,"body":"yes  but the monetization one"},{"startTime":751.554,"endTime":755.334,"body":"is a really interesting topic"},{"startTime":755.459,"endTime":759.159,"body":"it is interesting, but what if"},{"startTime":755.459,"endTime":759.159,"body":"you're a non for profit, right?"},{"startTime":759.309,"endTime":762.039,"body":"Are you still that interested"},{"startTime":759.309,"endTime":762.039,"body":"in monetization or are you"},{"startTime":762.039,"endTime":765.369,"body":"interested in doing other things"},{"startTime":762.039,"endTime":765.369,"body":"like expanding mindshare or?"},{"startTime":765.544,"endTime":768.654,"body":"You know, doing good for"},{"startTime":765.544,"endTime":768.654,"body":"the social good, basically."},{"startTime":768.804,"endTime":769.894,"body":"It just depends, right?"},{"startTime":769.894,"endTime":771.854,"body":"It depends on your context"},{"startTime":769.894,"endTime":771.854,"body":"at the end of the day."},{"startTime":772.004,"endTime":775.724,"body":"I'm struggling to think of an"},{"startTime":772.004,"endTime":775.724,"body":"example that is a non for profit"},{"startTime":775.874,"endTime":777.814,"body":"or non profit scenario here."},{"startTime":777.964,"endTime":778.984,"body":"I can't think of anything."},{"startTime":779.134,"endTime":780.014,"body":"I can't, I can't."},{"startTime":780.204,"endTime":781.114,"body":"Abandon ship, abandon ship."},{"startTime":781.264,"endTime":782.244,"body":"Women and children first."},{"startTime":782.424,"endTime":785.994,"body":"The other one that people will"},{"startTime":782.424,"endTime":785.994,"body":"push back on is compatibility"},{"startTime":786.144,"endTime":787.124,"body":"with different platforms."},{"startTime":787.274,"endTime":791.844,"body":"When I was doing mobile apps"},{"startTime":787.274,"endTime":791.844,"body":"earlier in my career they may say"},{"startTime":791.844,"endTime":796.614,"body":"an MVP requires you to put out"},{"startTime":791.844,"endTime":796.614,"body":"both an Android and an iOS release."},{"startTime":796.624,"endTime":798.784,"body":"We were kind of talking about"},{"startTime":796.624,"endTime":798.784,"body":"this before the podcast."},{"startTime":798.804,"endTime":802.294,"body":"We were kind of talking around this"},{"startTime":798.804,"endTime":802.294,"body":"point, whether it's positive or negative."},{"startTime":802.369,"endTime":805.859,"body":"Usually what you would do is you would"},{"startTime":802.369,"endTime":805.859,"body":"either survey the customer, we, we, it"},{"startTime":805.859,"endTime":810.379,"body":"was like a B to B to C type of offering,"},{"startTime":805.859,"endTime":810.379,"body":"and we'd survey the, the businesses"},{"startTime":810.379,"endTime":814.419,"body":"that we were doing business with to say,"},{"startTime":810.379,"endTime":814.419,"body":"hey take a poll, it's on you, part of,"},{"startTime":814.649,"endTime":817.299,"body":"it's like part of the contract, it's on"},{"startTime":814.649,"endTime":817.299,"body":"you, take a poll, figure out what the"},{"startTime":817.299,"endTime":821.279,"body":"percentage of Android iOS users at your"},{"startTime":817.299,"endTime":821.279,"body":"company are, and then when you pay us"},{"startTime":821.279,"endTime":824.209,"body":"for like a white, this is like a white"},{"startTime":821.279,"endTime":824.209,"body":"label app, when you pay us for an app"},{"startTime":824.359,"endTime":826.299,"body":"and we give you the MVP experience."},{"startTime":826.319,"endTime":828.919,"body":"Basically, it's like, when we spin"},{"startTime":826.319,"endTime":828.919,"body":"off a white label app, it's got,"},{"startTime":828.919,"endTime":831.609,"body":"you can sign into it, you can get"},{"startTime":828.919,"endTime":831.609,"body":"basic functionality, but there's"},{"startTime":831.609,"endTime":835.589,"body":"nothing customized, and we'll add"},{"startTime":831.609,"endTime":835.589,"body":"customization later as the relationship"},{"startTime":835.589,"endTime":836.909,"body":"develops and pay us more money."},{"startTime":837.059,"endTime":842.604,"body":"But the MVP version, this spun off,"},{"startTime":837.059,"endTime":842.604,"body":"relabeled white label app, if they said,"},{"startTime":842.604,"endTime":845.064,"body":"our customers are 50 50 Android, iOS."},{"startTime":845.254,"endTime":847.514,"body":"Well, okay, you probably need both."},{"startTime":847.664,"endTime":851.064,"body":"In your MVP unless, unless, or do you,"},{"startTime":847.664,"endTime":851.064,"body":"unless you wanna, you can try with one."},{"startTime":851.274,"endTime":855.444,"body":"What we, what we would do is we, we would"},{"startTime":851.274,"endTime":855.444,"body":"ask them to, to have a test pool of users"},{"startTime":855.654,"endTime":859.314,"body":"for the MVP, and then we would usually,"},{"startTime":855.654,"endTime":859.314,"body":"we would say, Hey, it's better if you"},{"startTime":859.314,"endTime":861.114,"body":"choose one operating system or another."},{"startTime":861.264,"endTime":863.794,"body":"Sometimes they would be adamant"},{"startTime":861.264,"endTime":863.794,"body":"about both but then they"},{"startTime":863.794,"endTime":866.304,"body":"would pay extra sure for this"},{"startTime":866.334,"endTime":870.864,"body":"This reminds me of some of the the apps"},{"startTime":866.334,"endTime":870.864,"body":"early in their Lifecycle where they"},{"startTime":870.864,"endTime":875.634,"body":"would only work on Android and then,"},{"startTime":870.864,"endTime":875.634,"body":"and then he would say you know, a an"},{"startTime":875.634,"endTime":877.974,"body":"Apple version is iPhone or whatever."},{"startTime":878.024,"endTime":879.324,"body":"Yeah, it's coming later."},{"startTime":879.394,"endTime":880.534,"body":"There are still apps like that."},{"startTime":880.604,"endTime":880.824,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":881.094,"endTime":883.464,"body":"Apps that only work on iOS"},{"startTime":881.094,"endTime":883.464,"body":"apps that only work on it."},{"startTime":883.474,"endTime":885.094,"body":"There's still apps like that"},{"startTime":883.474,"endTime":885.094,"body":"in the app store right now."},{"startTime":885.244,"endTime":885.514,"body":"So there's"},{"startTime":885.514,"endTime":887.694,"body":"ways to test what's"},{"startTime":885.514,"endTime":887.694,"body":"basically what we're saying,"},{"startTime":887.694,"endTime":887.934,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":888.124,"endTime":891.264,"body":"Yeah, and if you have no information"},{"startTime":888.124,"endTime":891.264,"body":"I mean, if you have no information"},{"startTime":891.264,"endTime":895.124,"body":"and you're in business, you probably"},{"startTime":891.264,"endTime":895.124,"body":"have, you probably can do your"},{"startTime":895.384,"endTime":898.504,"body":"network traffic analysis and see"},{"startTime":895.384,"endTime":898.504,"body":"what percentage of your users are"},{"startTime":898.504,"endTime":900.124,"body":"on iPhone or Android or whatever."},{"startTime":900.294,"endTime":903.664,"body":"Just try to get an idea"},{"startTime":900.294,"endTime":903.664,"body":"of which side you go."},{"startTime":903.664,"endTime":904.574,"body":"I mean, for us, it was like."},{"startTime":904.724,"endTime":907.634,"body":"It was like, it was, it was"},{"startTime":904.724,"endTime":907.634,"body":"the data was very clear."},{"startTime":907.634,"endTime":910.204,"body":"It was like 75 or 78 percent Android."},{"startTime":910.354,"endTime":913.934,"body":"And then a small percentage of"},{"startTime":910.354,"endTime":913.934,"body":"Apple and other, other devices."},{"startTime":913.934,"endTime":916.494,"body":"So for us, it was like Android"},{"startTime":913.934,"endTime":916.494,"body":"all the way, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":916.494,"endTime":918.034,"body":"It was, it was an easy decision."},{"startTime":918.224,"endTime":918.404,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":918.554,"endTime":921.184,"body":"The other one people will bring"},{"startTime":918.554,"endTime":921.184,"body":"up is a regulatory compliance."},{"startTime":921.194,"endTime":922.724,"body":"Well, I can't test the new thing."},{"startTime":922.724,"endTime":925.284,"body":"I can't even consider it until"},{"startTime":922.724,"endTime":925.284,"body":"you've got all these features"},{"startTime":925.284,"endTime":926.994,"body":"required for regulatory or whatever."},{"startTime":927.254,"endTime":933.334,"body":"And that one, I kind of I'm, I'm, I"},{"startTime":927.254,"endTime":933.334,"body":"am less inclined to consider that a"},{"startTime":933.344,"endTime":937.494,"body":"legitimate reason for an MVP, unless your"},{"startTime":933.344,"endTime":937.494,"body":"MVP is a regulatory product, I guess."},{"startTime":937.644,"endTime":938.694,"body":"There's very few of those."},{"startTime":938.904,"endTime":939.724,"body":"I, I agree with you."},{"startTime":939.724,"endTime":942.874,"body":"I think by the time you consider"},{"startTime":939.724,"endTime":942.874,"body":"the regulatory compliance type of"},{"startTime":942.874,"endTime":945.564,"body":"requirements, you've moved way past MVP,"},{"startTime":945.604,"endTime":946.264,"body":"way past MVP."},{"startTime":946.339,"endTime":949.989,"body":"At the point where you're talking about"},{"startTime":946.339,"endTime":949.989,"body":"regulatory issues or you're talking about"},{"startTime":950.139,"endTime":954.709,"body":"really deep features of an application,"},{"startTime":950.139,"endTime":954.709,"body":"way beyond basic features of application."},{"startTime":954.889,"endTime":955.219,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":955.344,"endTime":958.664,"body":"At that point, you're talking about"},{"startTime":955.344,"endTime":958.664,"body":"release map or release planning or"},{"startTime":958.664,"endTime":960.554,"body":"story mapping or something like that."},{"startTime":960.564,"endTime":962.244,"body":"That you're way beyond MVP."},{"startTime":962.304,"endTime":962.874,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":962.884,"endTime":965.874,"body":"You're into like lanes of"},{"startTime":962.884,"endTime":965.874,"body":"other releases in the future."},{"startTime":966.124,"endTime":969.174,"body":"And you could say like, Oh,"},{"startTime":966.124,"endTime":969.174,"body":"the customer doesn't want to"},{"startTime":969.184,"endTime":970.614,"body":"pay for it until you get to."},{"startTime":970.764,"endTime":974.204,"body":"This release, but also there's a"},{"startTime":970.764,"endTime":974.204,"body":"whole different discipline other"},{"startTime":974.204,"endTime":975.984,"body":"than MVP for dealing with this stuff."},{"startTime":976.194,"endTime":982.524,"body":"It's it's alpha beta GA that you know"},{"startTime":976.194,"endTime":982.524,"body":"that kind of stuff so so if you're if"},{"startTime":982.524,"endTime":985.524,"body":"you're creating a new product Again,"},{"startTime":982.524,"endTime":985.524,"body":"assuming you're creating a new product,"},{"startTime":985.524,"endTime":988.184,"body":"if you're creating a new product"},{"startTime":985.524,"endTime":988.184,"body":"and you have all these regulatory"},{"startTime":988.184,"endTime":992.144,"body":"features that must be in before your"},{"startTime":988.184,"endTime":992.144,"body":"customer will adopt it in production"},{"startTime":992.144,"endTime":994.104,"body":"or whatever, like cool, no problem."},{"startTime":994.254,"endTime":998.774,"body":"Go with test users, have them in"},{"startTime":994.254,"endTime":998.774,"body":"quote production until a point"},{"startTime":998.834,"endTime":1002.179,"body":"where you feel you can cut over and"},{"startTime":998.834,"endTime":1002.179,"body":"you have your GA set of features."},{"startTime":1002.409,"endTime":1006.139,"body":"And then you go GA when you want to"},{"startTime":1002.409,"endTime":1006.139,"body":"go GA, that'll be your milestone and"},{"startTime":1006.139,"endTime":1008.639,"body":"you can, you can have Gantt charts"},{"startTime":1006.139,"endTime":1008.639,"body":"or whatever you want, to make your"},{"startTime":1008.639,"endTime":1012.479,"body":"compliance people happy, but alpha"},{"startTime":1008.639,"endTime":1012.479,"body":"beta production, release mapping, all"},{"startTime":1012.479,"endTime":1013.319,"body":"that kind of stuff, story mapping."},{"startTime":1013.469,"endTime":1014.659,"body":"That's a whole different podcast."},{"startTime":1014.689,"endTime":1017.189,"body":"And it's also, it's a whole"},{"startTime":1014.689,"endTime":1017.189,"body":"different discipline, which I feel"},{"startTime":1017.189,"endTime":1019.309,"body":"is conflated with this MVP stuff."},{"startTime":1019.379,"endTime":1023.489,"body":"People are talking about alpha beta"},{"startTime":1019.379,"endTime":1023.489,"body":"production as if they are well, beta."},{"startTime":1023.489,"endTime":1025.469,"body":"MVP, alpha, MV, p."},{"startTime":1025.649,"endTime":1025.919,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1026.069,"endTime":1027.299,"body":"You know, so limited."},{"startTime":1027.299,"endTime":1029.189,"body":"MVP I don't know, , I'm throwing my magic."},{"startTime":1029.189,"endTime":1029.849,"body":"I haven't even heard"},{"startTime":1029.849,"endTime":1034.859,"body":"people talk about pre MVP and"},{"startTime":1029.849,"endTime":1034.859,"body":"post MVP and all of this stuff"},{"startTime":1034.859,"endTime":1036.464,"body":"where the actual middle of it."},{"startTime":1036.614,"endTime":1037.884,"body":"Isn't even well defined."},{"startTime":1038.109,"endTime":1040.519,"body":"There's a couple more points"},{"startTime":1038.109,"endTime":1040.519,"body":"that I wrote down here that"},{"startTime":1040.549,"endTime":1041.959,"body":"aren't, they aren't very good,"},{"startTime":1042.064,"endTime":1045.674,"body":"I, I, I'm going to let me list them"},{"startTime":1042.064,"endTime":1045.674,"body":"all because they're all going to sound"},{"startTime":1045.674,"endTime":1046.794,"body":"like assumptions when I say them."},{"startTime":1047.044,"endTime":1051.844,"body":"I assume that our competitive advantage"},{"startTime":1047.044,"endTime":1051.844,"body":"has to be part of our initial features,"},{"startTime":1051.974,"endTime":1053.094,"body":"otherwise no one's going to use it."},{"startTime":1053.424,"endTime":1057.944,"body":"I, I assume that there needs to be"},{"startTime":1053.424,"endTime":1057.944,"body":"some sort of basic end to end user"},{"startTime":1057.944,"endTime":1060.044,"body":"experience in order for anyone to use it."},{"startTime":1060.044,"endTime":1064.564,"body":"I, I assume that in order to attract"},{"startTime":1060.044,"endTime":1064.564,"body":"any early adopters, I've got to"},{"startTime":1064.574,"endTime":1067.949,"body":"have feature X and feature Y and"},{"startTime":1064.574,"endTime":1067.949,"body":"feature Z that like all of these."},{"startTime":1068.099,"endTime":1071.584,"body":"Are all assumptions all of which if"},{"startTime":1068.099,"endTime":1071.584,"body":"you're if you're doing a story map I"},{"startTime":1071.594,"endTime":1074.514,"body":"did a bit of research before we stepped"},{"startTime":1071.594,"endTime":1074.514,"body":"into this podcast And a lot of people"},{"startTime":1074.514,"endTime":1078.604,"body":"were doing Story mapping, so think of"},{"startTime":1074.514,"endTime":1078.604,"body":"like columns with epics and stories"},{"startTime":1078.604,"endTime":1082.154,"body":"under that and they were like drawing"},{"startTime":1078.604,"endTime":1082.154,"body":"lines around these are all the minimum"},{"startTime":1082.154,"endTime":1084.384,"body":"stories that have to be in the MVP, right?"},{"startTime":1084.404,"endTime":1084.944,"body":"How they know"},{"startTime":1084.944,"endTime":1085.274,"body":"that is"},{"startTime":1085.274,"endTime":1086.204,"body":"beyond me, but okay."},{"startTime":1086.234,"endTime":1089.404,"body":"Well, again, like I feel every single"},{"startTime":1086.234,"endTime":1089.404,"body":"one of those epics, or whatever you"},{"startTime":1089.404,"endTime":1091.514,"body":"want to call them, features, whatever"},{"startTime":1089.404,"endTime":1091.514,"body":"you want to call them, every one of"},{"startTime":1091.514,"endTime":1095.684,"body":"those columns, that you decide one"},{"startTime":1091.514,"endTime":1095.684,"body":"or more stories or work items or"},{"startTime":1095.684,"endTime":1097.274,"body":"whatever you want to call it must be."},{"startTime":1097.424,"endTime":1101.284,"body":"In the MVP for every single"},{"startTime":1097.424,"endTime":1101.284,"body":"one of those, I think there"},{"startTime":1101.284,"endTime":1103.924,"body":"should be a business viability."},{"startTime":1104.074,"endTime":1106.464,"body":"MVP attached to each."},{"startTime":1106.614,"endTime":1111.174,"body":"So if you have, let's say for example,"},{"startTime":1106.614,"endTime":1111.174,"body":"you have seven features that you want in"},{"startTime":1111.174,"endTime":1115.384,"body":"the MVP and you and you and you go with"},{"startTime":1111.174,"endTime":1115.384,"body":"your team and you par that down to three."},{"startTime":1115.414,"endTime":1119.824,"body":"Three, absolutely must have"},{"startTime":1115.414,"endTime":1119.824,"body":"great just banger features."},{"startTime":1119.974,"endTime":1124.234,"body":"That's gotta be the MVP three, like"},{"startTime":1119.974,"endTime":1124.234,"body":"three, three full features, fully"},{"startTime":1124.234,"endTime":1127.444,"body":"working in the code, full database,"},{"startTime":1124.234,"endTime":1127.444,"body":"tested, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":1127.714,"endTime":1129.064,"body":"And then you say you have to do that."},{"startTime":1129.214,"endTime":1129.514,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1129.674,"endTime":1133.129,"body":"So if you come to me, at Brian and"},{"startTime":1129.674,"endTime":1133.129,"body":"Om's software development company, like"},{"startTime":1133.129,"endTime":1134.899,"body":"Brian and Om own the purse strings here."},{"startTime":1134.949,"endTime":1137.259,"body":"Therefore we control the"},{"startTime":1134.949,"endTime":1137.259,"body":"agility in the organization."},{"startTime":1137.269,"endTime":1139.429,"body":"That's a, that's a statement"},{"startTime":1137.269,"endTime":1139.429,"body":"on another podcast, by the way."},{"startTime":1139.579,"endTime":1143.449,"body":"And you say, okay, Brian and Om this"},{"startTime":1139.579,"endTime":1143.449,"body":"is my story map, and these are all my"},{"startTime":1143.449,"endTime":1144.589,"body":"features, and these are my stories."},{"startTime":1144.609,"endTime":1147.469,"body":"And I've outlined here with"},{"startTime":1144.609,"endTime":1147.469,"body":"the circle, these are all the"},{"startTime":1147.469,"endTime":1149.209,"body":"stories I want in the MVP."},{"startTime":1149.409,"endTime":1152.339,"body":"And you see that out of the seven"},{"startTime":1149.409,"endTime":1152.339,"body":"total features that we talked about"},{"startTime":1152.339,"endTime":1155.739,"body":"that we needed in our application"},{"startTime":1152.339,"endTime":1155.739,"body":"I've only taken stories from three"},{"startTime":1155.739,"endTime":1157.479,"body":"of them to say that this is our MVP."},{"startTime":1157.629,"endTime":1162.499,"body":"And Om will say, you did a great job,"},{"startTime":1157.629,"endTime":1162.499,"body":"good job kid, you're doing great."},{"startTime":1162.519,"endTime":1164.609,"body":"We're really proud of you,"},{"startTime":1162.519,"endTime":1164.609,"body":"Brian Ohm's development company,"},{"startTime":1164.619,"endTime":1165.509,"body":"software development company."},{"startTime":1165.739,"endTime":1166.629,"body":"And Brian will say."},{"startTime":1166.859,"endTime":1171.549,"body":"What have you done to validate what"},{"startTime":1166.859,"endTime":1171.549,"body":"have you done to validate that what you"},{"startTime":1171.549,"endTime":1177.069,"body":"say, what you assume are the must have"},{"startTime":1171.549,"endTime":1177.069,"body":"features are viable for the business?"},{"startTime":1177.219,"endTime":1177.519,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1177.619,"endTime":1179.239,"body":"that's pretty much what I would say."},{"startTime":1179.239,"endTime":1183.589,"body":"I would just say, well, you say feature"},{"startTime":1179.239,"endTime":1183.589,"body":"one, seven and nine or whatever it is."},{"startTime":1183.739,"endTime":1184.599,"body":"How do you know?"},{"startTime":1184.939,"endTime":1187.629,"body":"How do you know that that's"},{"startTime":1184.939,"endTime":1187.629,"body":"what's needed in the MVP?"},{"startTime":1187.779,"endTime":1190.709,"body":"What data do you have"},{"startTime":1187.779,"endTime":1190.709,"body":"that shows that, right?"},{"startTime":1190.859,"endTime":1193.629,"body":"If you haven't done the due"},{"startTime":1190.859,"endTime":1193.629,"body":"diligence, you don't have data,"},{"startTime":1193.719,"endTime":1195.079,"body":"then it's just conjecture."},{"startTime":1195.229,"endTime":1197.419,"body":"And I'm not investing in that."},{"startTime":1197.569,"endTime":1201.319,"body":"So go, go do the research, go figure it"},{"startTime":1197.569,"endTime":1201.319,"body":"out, and then give me the data points."},{"startTime":1201.369,"endTime":1204.929,"body":"And we'll make a data driven"},{"startTime":1201.369,"endTime":1204.929,"body":"decision on any of those features."},{"startTime":1205.049,"endTime":1207.059,"body":"It may not be three, it may be"},{"startTime":1205.049,"endTime":1207.059,"body":"only two, or it may be three."},{"startTime":1207.199,"endTime":1209.299,"body":"Five, but we'll know that"},{"startTime":1207.199,"endTime":1209.299,"body":"because we'll have the"},{"startTime":1209.309,"endTime":1209.739,"body":"data."},{"startTime":1209.889,"endTime":1214.449,"body":"Well, what would you say to the"},{"startTime":1209.889,"endTime":1214.449,"body":"counterpoint of this is so simple"},{"startTime":1214.459,"endTime":1216.229,"body":"that we don't need to validate it."},{"startTime":1216.339,"endTime":1218.679,"body":"It's, it's so obvious that"},{"startTime":1216.339,"endTime":1218.679,"body":"we don't need to validate it."},{"startTime":1218.829,"endTime":1223.449,"body":"Again, it's a simple, that's a simple"},{"startTime":1218.829,"endTime":1223.449,"body":"one to kind of come back on it and"},{"startTime":1223.459,"endTime":1225.069,"body":"just say, well, if it's so obvious."},{"startTime":1225.219,"endTime":1226.169,"body":"Why is it obvious?"},{"startTime":1226.199,"endTime":1230.389,"body":"What data do you have that shows"},{"startTime":1226.199,"endTime":1230.389,"body":"that this is a real thing, right?"},{"startTime":1230.399,"endTime":1235.189,"body":"If you can't show that to me in hard data,"},{"startTime":1230.399,"endTime":1235.189,"body":"then I'm going to basically dismiss it."},{"startTime":1235.339,"endTime":1235.869,"body":"mAybe."},{"startTime":1236.019,"endTime":1239.219,"body":"I was going to say, maybe we would"},{"startTime":1236.019,"endTime":1239.219,"body":"dismiss it, but also like at Brian Ohm's"},{"startTime":1239.219,"endTime":1242.839,"body":"development company software development"},{"startTime":1239.219,"endTime":1242.839,"body":"company, we we value speed as well."},{"startTime":1242.839,"endTime":1246.759,"body":"So maybe there may be"},{"startTime":1242.839,"endTime":1246.759,"body":"like a convincing case."},{"startTime":1246.909,"endTime":1251.859,"body":"From a PM uh, I could, I could see leaving"},{"startTime":1246.909,"endTime":1251.859,"body":"the door open to say a convincing case"},{"startTime":1251.859,"endTime":1257.279,"body":"from a PM might uh, I could see cases"},{"startTime":1251.859,"endTime":1257.279,"body":"where a convincing enough case gets put"},{"startTime":1257.279,"endTime":1264.199,"body":"together that makes us take on the risk"},{"startTime":1257.279,"endTime":1264.199,"body":"of not doing the business viability test."},{"startTime":1264.369,"endTime":1264.579,"body":"It,"},{"startTime":1264.579,"endTime":1266.169,"body":"it, that may happen."},{"startTime":1266.419,"endTime":1269.029,"body":"You'd have to evaluate that"},{"startTime":1266.419,"endTime":1269.029,"body":"on a case by case basis."},{"startTime":1269.179,"endTime":1269.479,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1269.509,"endTime":1272.989,"body":"You'd have to say, well, why"},{"startTime":1269.509,"endTime":1272.989,"body":"this feature and the flip side"},{"startTime":1272.989,"endTime":1275.009,"body":"of it, the, the cost, right?"},{"startTime":1275.009,"endTime":1275.199,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1275.319,"endTime":1278.009,"body":"We'd have to look at that and"},{"startTime":1275.319,"endTime":1278.009,"body":"say, okay, well, this is so,"},{"startTime":1278.159,"endTime":1279.659,"body":"this is such low hanging fruit."},{"startTime":1279.679,"endTime":1280.639,"body":"We should do it."},{"startTime":1280.679,"endTime":1281.409,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":1281.689,"endTime":1283.509,"body":"What, what would happen"},{"startTime":1281.689,"endTime":1283.509,"body":"if we didn't do it?"},{"startTime":1283.659,"endTime":1284.009,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1284.309,"endTime":1286.429,"body":"And based on that discussion."},{"startTime":1286.774,"endTime":1287.194,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1287.214,"endTime":1290.614,"body":"I might, I might renege and say,"},{"startTime":1287.214,"endTime":1290.614,"body":"Oh, okay, well, maybe we'll just"},{"startTime":1290.614,"endTime":1293.524,"body":"do that because it's only two hours"},{"startTime":1290.614,"endTime":1293.524,"body":"worth of work or whatever it is."},{"startTime":1293.674,"endTime":1294.934,"body":"So it's a case by case."},{"startTime":1295.004,"endTime":1295.304,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1295.454,"endTime":1299.034,"body":"I would also point out the"},{"startTime":1295.454,"endTime":1299.034,"body":"opportunity cost equation there,"},{"startTime":1299.084,"endTime":1300.354,"body":"as I often do here, right?"},{"startTime":1300.414,"endTime":1303.004,"body":"In those two hours, what else could"},{"startTime":1300.414,"endTime":1303.004,"body":"you have done that's more valuable?"},{"startTime":1303.154,"endTime":1306.834,"body":"So the, so we, we walked"},{"startTime":1303.154,"endTime":1306.834,"body":"through a few categories for"},{"startTime":1306.834,"endTime":1309.174,"body":"the expansion of the term MVP."},{"startTime":1309.184,"endTime":1313.174,"body":"So let's let's, let's talk"},{"startTime":1309.184,"endTime":1313.174,"body":"through a few categories against"},{"startTime":1313.374,"endTime":1315.324,"body":"the expansion of the term MVP."},{"startTime":1315.674,"endTime":1321.374,"body":"So like aside from, aside from which"},{"startTime":1315.674,"endTime":1321.374,"body":"I realize is not in my notes today"},{"startTime":1321.484,"endTime":1327.354,"body":"about the dilution of the term mVP were"},{"startTime":1321.484,"endTime":1327.354,"body":"basically I can't use I can't say MVP"},{"startTime":1327.354,"endTime":1328.194,"body":"anymore goodness."},{"startTime":1328.194,"endTime":1328.484,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1328.484,"endTime":1329.964,"body":"Well forget about the synonyms of"},{"startTime":1329.984,"endTime":1330.684,"body":"MVP, right?"},{"startTime":1330.684,"endTime":1332.614,"body":"Yeah, I can't I can't say MVP anymore."},{"startTime":1332.614,"endTime":1336.754,"body":"I can't use it because it's so it's"},{"startTime":1332.614,"endTime":1336.754,"body":"everyone has a different expectation So"},{"startTime":1336.904,"endTime":1341.259,"body":"some people think it's like everything"},{"startTime":1336.904,"endTime":1341.259,"body":"In the world altogether, all the"},{"startTime":1341.259,"endTime":1343.969,"body":"features before the customer will buy it."},{"startTime":1344.119,"endTime":1346.119,"body":"Some people think it's a slideshow."},{"startTime":1346.129,"endTime":1347.349,"body":"Some people think it's a video."},{"startTime":1347.349,"endTime":1350.389,"body":"Some people think it's a, a"},{"startTime":1347.349,"endTime":1350.389,"body":"website with nothing under hood."},{"startTime":1350.579,"endTime":1353.649,"body":"Some people think that it's"},{"startTime":1350.579,"endTime":1353.649,"body":"just a, a site or application."},{"startTime":1353.894,"endTime":1358.584,"body":"Riddled with technical debt barely"},{"startTime":1353.894,"endTime":1358.584,"body":"stands up on its own that I, that"},{"startTime":1358.584,"endTime":1359.874,"body":"I've seen that more than once."},{"startTime":1359.914,"endTime":1360.284,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1360.374,"endTime":1363.494,"body":"And in actuality, I've seen that"},{"startTime":1360.374,"endTime":1363.494,"body":"pitch as an MVP more than once."},{"startTime":1363.644,"endTime":1363.924,"body":"I hope"},{"startTime":1363.924,"endTime":1366.844,"body":"there's some savvy VCs out there"},{"startTime":1363.924,"endTime":1366.844,"body":"that look through that and say,"},{"startTime":1366.994,"endTime":1368.594,"body":"what are you asking me to invest in?"},{"startTime":1368.744,"endTime":1369.034,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1369.044,"endTime":1373.414,"body":"Well, I mean, the, if you're, if"},{"startTime":1369.044,"endTime":1373.414,"body":"you're lifting lean philosophy."},{"startTime":1373.564,"endTime":1377.779,"body":"The actual lean philosophy not"},{"startTime":1373.564,"endTime":1377.779,"body":"like expanding just past Eric"},{"startTime":1377.779,"endTime":1379.939,"body":"Reis's book and actually looking"},{"startTime":1377.779,"endTime":1379.939,"body":"at like Toyota production."},{"startTime":1379.939,"endTime":1383.269,"body":"Sure Like a quality is not"},{"startTime":1379.939,"endTime":1383.269,"body":"compromised with any of these"},{"startTime":1383.269,"endTime":1384.629,"body":"features even with the MVP."},{"startTime":1384.779,"endTime":1388.859,"body":"Well, he's not compromised So it like"},{"startTime":1384.779,"endTime":1388.859,"body":"again if you're if you were if you're"},{"startTime":1388.859,"endTime":1393.404,"body":"having that problem Where you're picking"},{"startTime":1388.859,"endTime":1393.404,"body":"up a piece of software and it's so bug"},{"startTime":1393.404,"endTime":1395.204,"body":"riddled and they're calling you an MVP."},{"startTime":1395.354,"endTime":1398.924,"body":"I mean, there are some wools being"},{"startTime":1395.354,"endTime":1398.924,"body":"pulled over some eyes here in"},{"startTime":1398.924,"endTime":1401.674,"body":"disguising poor quality as an MVP."},{"startTime":1401.824,"endTime":1402.034,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1402.124,"endTime":1406.404,"body":"and whenever I've seen that, which"},{"startTime":1402.124,"endTime":1406.404,"body":"has been fairly often actually it's"},{"startTime":1406.404,"endTime":1410.734,"body":"always because the organization or"},{"startTime":1406.404,"endTime":1410.734,"body":"the people in it are prioritizing"},{"startTime":1410.884,"endTime":1412.704,"body":"delivery dates, hard dates."},{"startTime":1412.854,"endTime":1414.204,"body":"Over quality, right?"},{"startTime":1414.494,"endTime":1419.354,"body":"But think about it, no matter how"},{"startTime":1414.494,"endTime":1419.354,"body":"you define your MVP, M XP, whatever"},{"startTime":1419.364,"endTime":1422.654,"body":"the middle initial is, do you not"},{"startTime":1419.364,"endTime":1422.654,"body":"care about the customer's experience?"},{"startTime":1422.804,"endTime":1423.084,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1423.084,"endTime":1427.774,"body":"So if you're putting out things that are"},{"startTime":1423.084,"endTime":1427.774,"body":"buggy or riddled with defects, etcetera,"},{"startTime":1427.924,"endTime":1430.044,"body":"that experience goes south immediately."},{"startTime":1430.394,"endTime":1434.404,"body":"And this is, this is something that I've"},{"startTime":1430.394,"endTime":1434.404,"body":"seen outside in the outside of the world"},{"startTime":1434.404,"endTime":1439.754,"body":"of of software to the shoe manufacturing"},{"startTime":1434.404,"endTime":1439.754,"body":"company that put out a cheap version of"},{"startTime":1439.784,"endTime":1444.214,"body":"the line of shoes that they eventually"},{"startTime":1439.784,"endTime":1444.214,"body":"had as a way to test the market."},{"startTime":1444.364,"endTime":1449.634,"body":"And obviously they, they cut some"},{"startTime":1444.364,"endTime":1449.634,"body":"corners, but the glue is what Came undone."},{"startTime":1449.884,"endTime":1450.484,"body":"Ironically."},{"startTime":1450.594,"endTime":1455.224,"body":"And they knew that glue wasn't strong"},{"startTime":1450.594,"endTime":1455.224,"body":"enough to hold up if if it's out in the"},{"startTime":1455.224,"endTime":1458.344,"body":"wild and they still released it because"},{"startTime":1455.224,"endTime":1458.344,"body":"they wanted to see if people like the"},{"startTime":1458.344,"endTime":1460.364,"body":"design, the fashion statement, right?"},{"startTime":1460.714,"endTime":1462.004,"body":"And all of that, the fit."},{"startTime":1462.334,"endTime":1463.264,"body":"Well, yeah, they did."},{"startTime":1463.294,"endTime":1467.704,"body":"But most people complained about"},{"startTime":1463.294,"endTime":1467.704,"body":"the fact that it comes unraveled"},{"startTime":1467.704,"endTime":1469.554,"body":"within three days of trying it on."},{"startTime":1469.554,"endTime":1470.674,"body":"So you can look that up."},{"startTime":1470.729,"endTime":1473.009,"body":"I won't mention the name of"},{"startTime":1470.729,"endTime":1473.009,"body":"the company as we don't do that"},{"startTime":1473.009,"endTime":1474.329,"body":"here, but yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":1474.629,"endTime":1478.469,"body":"So it just goes to show you"},{"startTime":1474.629,"endTime":1478.469,"body":"where do you care about your"},{"startTime":1478.469,"endTime":1480.929,"body":"customer experience at MVP level?"},{"startTime":1480.934,"endTime":1485.659,"body":"I would argue it is more important"},{"startTime":1480.934,"endTime":1485.659,"body":"to have a positive experience in that"},{"startTime":1485.659,"endTime":1487.459,"body":"usually goes with built in quality."},{"startTime":1487.609,"endTime":1493.419,"body":"Again, , I'm not saying that I don't"},{"startTime":1487.609,"endTime":1493.419,"body":"understand any of the, the four expanding"},{"startTime":1493.419,"endTime":1495.319,"body":"the term points that we've outlined."},{"startTime":1495.469,"endTime":1499.749,"body":"I completely understand why people do that"},{"startTime":1495.469,"endTime":1499.749,"body":"in the, in the different organizations."},{"startTime":1499.749,"endTime":1504.089,"body":"Like some, some founders or some VPs or"},{"startTime":1499.749,"endTime":1504.089,"body":"some executives that run companies are."},{"startTime":1504.199,"endTime":1507.594,"body":"We'll, we'll say like it's my business"},{"startTime":1504.199,"endTime":1507.594,"body":"and I'll take on the risk and I I"},{"startTime":1507.594,"endTime":1511.414,"body":"say that I know what the customer"},{"startTime":1507.594,"endTime":1511.414,"body":"needs and I know I just don't want to"},{"startTime":1511.414,"endTime":1515.404,"body":"spend time I will take on the risk of"},{"startTime":1511.414,"endTime":1515.404,"body":"overbuilding, for example, I'll take"},{"startTime":1515.404,"endTime":1518.594,"body":"on the risk of over, but we've built"},{"startTime":1515.404,"endTime":1518.594,"body":"too many features and we made too many"},{"startTime":1518.604,"endTime":1521.284,"body":"assumptions and we were going to gamble."},{"startTime":1521.434,"endTime":1524.354,"body":"It's not even risk because it really"},{"startTime":1521.434,"endTime":1524.354,"body":"is a building building too many"},{"startTime":1524.354,"endTime":1526.124,"body":"features is gambling It's not a risk."},{"startTime":1526.154,"endTime":1529.174,"body":"Like if you build the wrong features and"},{"startTime":1526.154,"endTime":1529.174,"body":"nobody's your product you lose you lose"},{"startTime":1529.174,"endTime":1535.604,"body":"everything right a gamble like a risk"},{"startTime":1529.174,"endTime":1535.604,"body":"is You've got alternate that you you're"},{"startTime":1535.604,"endTime":1540.864,"body":"weighing options And you've not bet"},{"startTime":1535.604,"endTime":1540.864,"body":"everything on one idea or one assumption."},{"startTime":1541.014,"endTime":1543.234,"body":"A risk is different than a gamble."},{"startTime":1543.384,"endTime":1544.114,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1544.214,"endTime":1548.964,"body":"So as long as the gamble isn't just"},{"startTime":1544.214,"endTime":1548.964,"body":"simply, you know free will or somebody's"},{"startTime":1548.974,"endTime":1555.064,"body":"highly opinionated decision if one saying"},{"startTime":1548.974,"endTime":1555.064,"body":"is if it's a calculated gamble and there's"},{"startTime":1555.214,"endTime":1560.664,"body":"the willingness to take that on by by the"},{"startTime":1555.214,"endTime":1560.664,"body":"VCs or the funder funding people, right?"},{"startTime":1560.664,"endTime":1562.634,"body":"People that are putting"},{"startTime":1560.664,"endTime":1562.634,"body":"the money on the table."},{"startTime":1562.944,"endTime":1563.554,"body":"Okay, fine."},{"startTime":1563.564,"endTime":1564.614,"body":"Go with that, right?"},{"startTime":1564.784,"endTime":1566.284,"body":"But quickly test that too."},{"startTime":1566.434,"endTime":1568.914,"body":"And then come back and say,"},{"startTime":1566.434,"endTime":1568.914,"body":"Okay, we took a gamble."},{"startTime":1569.034,"endTime":1570.314,"body":"Here's what we learned."},{"startTime":1570.344,"endTime":1571.964,"body":"So you can pivot if you needed to."},{"startTime":1572.114,"endTime":1576.124,"body":"But if it's just a Somebody saying,"},{"startTime":1572.114,"endTime":1576.124,"body":"well, I think they will buy this."},{"startTime":1576.224,"endTime":1576.974,"body":"Like, I don't know."},{"startTime":1577.204,"endTime":1580.534,"body":"Having said all that though,"},{"startTime":1577.204,"endTime":1580.534,"body":"there are products out there that"},{"startTime":1580.724,"endTime":1582.394,"body":"didn't really have a market need."},{"startTime":1582.444,"endTime":1584.104,"body":"They just happened to be popular."},{"startTime":1584.254,"endTime":1586.854,"body":"You know, like the chia seeds or whatever."},{"startTime":1586.854,"endTime":1587.344,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1587.464,"endTime":1588.464,"body":"The clapper."},{"startTime":1588.614,"endTime":1590.634,"body":"Was there really a need for a clapper?"},{"startTime":1590.634,"endTime":1592.394,"body":"So you clap your hands"},{"startTime":1590.634,"endTime":1592.394,"body":"and the light comes on?"},{"startTime":1592.544,"endTime":1592.924,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1592.964,"endTime":1593.924,"body":"Were they popular?"},{"startTime":1594.034,"endTime":1597.064,"body":"A lot of people bottom 1999"},{"startTime":1594.034,"endTime":1597.064,"body":"operators are standing by."},{"startTime":1597.324,"endTime":1600.604,"body":"Anyway, so yeah, I mean, there's"},{"startTime":1597.324,"endTime":1600.604,"body":"like pros and cons to either side."},{"startTime":1600.604,"endTime":1603.914,"body":"But most the majority of the time."},{"startTime":1604.244,"endTime":1607.354,"body":"All of those gambles they"},{"startTime":1604.244,"endTime":1607.354,"body":"really need to be vetted"},{"startTime":1607.424,"endTime":1608.174,"body":"and validated."},{"startTime":1608.224,"endTime":1610.254,"body":"I was going to say, don't,"},{"startTime":1608.224,"endTime":1610.254,"body":"don't talk to me about lighting"},{"startTime":1610.254,"endTime":1611.384,"body":"in the seventies and eighties."},{"startTime":1611.384,"endTime":1615.914,"body":"Like having to walk into a dark room"},{"startTime":1611.384,"endTime":1615.914,"body":"and turn the light, turn the light on."},{"startTime":1616.934,"endTime":1618.884,"body":"Like that still blows my mind."},{"startTime":1618.934,"endTime":1622.754,"body":"Whenever I see a housing from the"},{"startTime":1618.934,"endTime":1622.754,"body":"seventies that has like no lights"},{"startTime":1622.784,"endTime":1626.994,"body":"anywhere over your head at all,"},{"startTime":1622.784,"endTime":1626.994,"body":"right at all, you have to walk in and"},{"startTime":1626.994,"endTime":1629.384,"body":"turn a lamp on,  turn on the lamp."},{"startTime":1629.739,"endTime":1632.629,"body":"Um, Oh man,"},{"startTime":1632.794,"endTime":1636.604,"body":"I think one of the points against that"},{"startTime":1632.794,"endTime":1636.604,"body":"I think is not going to be overcome"},{"startTime":1636.604,"endTime":1640.089,"body":"with any of the points that we"},{"startTime":1636.604,"endTime":1640.089,"body":"talked about for is, You're skipping"},{"startTime":1640.239,"endTime":1642.899,"body":"a chance for iterative learning."},{"startTime":1643.049,"endTime":1646.909,"body":"If you're not vetting, the MVP is like"},{"startTime":1643.049,"endTime":1646.909,"body":"the story mapping example where you're"},{"startTime":1646.909,"endTime":1651.459,"body":"like, Oh, we got the, the VP comes in"},{"startTime":1646.909,"endTime":1651.459,"body":"and says, Oh, no customers, no customer"},{"startTime":1651.459,"endTime":1653.539,"body":"will sign up unless we have these."},{"startTime":1653.779,"endTime":1656.269,"body":"And no customer will even look at it"},{"startTime":1653.779,"endTime":1656.269,"body":"because that's what we're talking about."},{"startTime":1656.329,"endTime":1657.859,"body":"We're talking about getting"},{"startTime":1656.329,"endTime":1657.859,"body":"a customer's attention."},{"startTime":1657.859,"endTime":1659.449,"body":"We're not talking about"},{"startTime":1657.859,"endTime":1659.449,"body":"taking money potentially."},{"startTime":1659.599,"endTime":1660.519,"body":"But this is what you should be."},{"startTime":1660.559,"endTime":1661.239,"body":"That's what we're talking about."},{"startTime":1661.239,"endTime":1662.299,"body":"Mindshare."},{"startTime":1662.299,"endTime":1663.919,"body":"No, nobody's going to let you in the door."},{"startTime":1664.099,"endTime":1667.039,"body":"And you'll never have a chance to get"},{"startTime":1664.099,"endTime":1667.039,"body":"anyone's opinion unless you have all"},{"startTime":1667.039,"endTime":1671.509,"body":"three of these features built top to"},{"startTime":1667.039,"endTime":1671.509,"body":"bottom, front to back, etc, etc, etc."},{"startTime":1671.509,"endTime":1672.679,"body":"And they're completely functional."},{"startTime":1672.929,"endTime":1674.789,"body":"And people can sign up and"},{"startTime":1672.929,"endTime":1674.789,"body":"you can take money from them."},{"startTime":1674.899,"endTime":1675.279,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1675.429,"endTime":1680.919,"body":"Sure, there's that, but also that, like"},{"startTime":1675.429,"endTime":1680.919,"body":"that statement is in and of itself an"},{"startTime":1680.919,"endTime":1685.199,"body":"assumption that I can test, I can go"},{"startTime":1680.919,"endTime":1685.199,"body":"try to get people's time and find that"},{"startTime":1685.219,"endTime":1686.639,"body":"all the doors get slammed in my face."},{"startTime":1686.829,"endTime":1690.229,"body":"The point here is they have"},{"startTime":1686.829,"endTime":1690.229,"body":"given you assumptions, cemented"},{"startTime":1690.229,"endTime":1692.829,"body":"them in stone, and told you, you"},{"startTime":1690.229,"endTime":1692.829,"body":"can't question these assumptions."},{"startTime":1692.979,"endTime":1697.399,"body":"The idea of build something quickly,"},{"startTime":1692.979,"endTime":1697.399,"body":"whatever the minimum is, each of those"},{"startTime":1697.629,"endTime":1702.669,"body":"stories Or features or epics or whatever"},{"startTime":1697.629,"endTime":1702.669,"body":"it is each of those columns that I was"},{"startTime":1702.679,"endTime":1707.169,"body":"outlining earlier Each is an assumption"},{"startTime":1702.679,"endTime":1707.169,"body":"that could be vetted for business"},{"startTime":1707.169,"endTime":1712.159,"body":"viability in In its own little ecosystem"},{"startTime":1707.169,"endTime":1712.159,"body":"without the rest of the features with"},{"startTime":1712.159,"endTime":1714.399,"body":"its own user that it's targeted toward."},{"startTime":1714.549,"endTime":1716.109,"body":"Yeah, I'd, I'd agree."},{"startTime":1716.139,"endTime":1720.019,"body":"And I would say instead of saying"},{"startTime":1716.139,"endTime":1720.019,"body":"that it could be vetted, it must be"},{"startTime":1720.019,"endTime":1723.379,"body":"vetted because otherwise, like you"},{"startTime":1720.019,"endTime":1723.379,"body":"said you're just pinning yourself into"},{"startTime":1723.379,"endTime":1726.589,"body":"a box there and you're losing I think"},{"startTime":1723.379,"endTime":1726.589,"body":"that's where you're going with this."},{"startTime":1726.599,"endTime":1729.099,"body":"You're losing the valuable"},{"startTime":1726.599,"endTime":1729.099,"body":"opportunity to learn, right?"},{"startTime":1729.359,"endTime":1731.359,"body":"From those little increments, right?"},{"startTime":1731.359,"endTime":1732.109,"body":"There's little features."},{"startTime":1732.209,"endTime":1732.389,"body":"And"},{"startTime":1732.389,"endTime":1736.549,"body":"also we haven't even, we haven't even"},{"startTime":1732.389,"endTime":1736.549,"body":"dipped into, this has been a very like"},{"startTime":1736.629,"endTime":1738.799,"body":"producty, businessy type of podcast."},{"startTime":1738.829,"endTime":1742.229,"body":"We haven't even talked about especially"},{"startTime":1738.829,"endTime":1742.229,"body":"if your team is new, if you go and get"},{"startTime":1742.229,"endTime":1745.289,"body":"a bunch of engineers or designers or"},{"startTime":1742.229,"endTime":1745.289,"body":"whatever, and you go through the trouble"},{"startTime":1745.289,"endTime":1747.589,"body":"of making them cross functional and"},{"startTime":1745.289,"endTime":1747.589,"body":"having them work together and getting"},{"startTime":1747.589,"endTime":1749.749,"body":"them to talk directly to customers,"},{"startTime":1747.589,"endTime":1749.749,"body":"maybe they all come from different"},{"startTime":1749.749,"endTime":1752.729,"body":"businesses, or maybe developers aren't"},{"startTime":1749.749,"endTime":1752.729,"body":"used to talking to customers, you're"},{"startTime":1752.729,"endTime":1755.139,"body":"taking away that muscle, the exercise."},{"startTime":1755.439,"endTime":1760.859,"body":"That builds that muscle of vet every idea,"},{"startTime":1755.439,"endTime":1760.859,"body":"test all the ideas, the best ideas win."},{"startTime":1761.179,"endTime":1763.839,"body":"You're like, no, no, no, don't,"},{"startTime":1761.179,"endTime":1763.839,"body":"don't, don't build that muscle."},{"startTime":1763.989,"endTime":1765.379,"body":"Go back, go back to the basement, kid."},{"startTime":1765.419,"endTime":1766.349,"body":"I'll tell you what to build."},{"startTime":1766.459,"endTime":1766.979,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1767.219,"endTime":1768.069,"body":"That's a terrible thing that you're doing."},{"startTime":1768.069,"endTime":1768.769,"body":"It really is."},{"startTime":1768.799,"endTime":1769.409,"body":"It really is."},{"startTime":1769.419,"endTime":1773.049,"body":"You want your team to come up with"},{"startTime":1769.419,"endTime":1773.049,"body":"all the alternatives and keep every"},{"startTime":1773.049,"endTime":1774.829,"body":"one of them alive as much as possible."},{"startTime":1774.959,"endTime":1775.079,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1775.109,"endTime":1777.009,"body":"Until they find a reason"},{"startTime":1775.109,"endTime":1777.009,"body":"to kill one of them."},{"startTime":1777.159,"endTime":1780.529,"body":"Or more iteratively that that's"},{"startTime":1777.159,"endTime":1780.529,"body":"probably the best way to do it,"},{"startTime":1780.529,"endTime":1783.829,"body":"because if you do it that way,"},{"startTime":1780.529,"endTime":1783.829,"body":"you're more likely to be data driven."},{"startTime":1784.139,"endTime":1787.209,"body":"You kill an idea that you're"},{"startTime":1784.139,"endTime":1787.209,"body":"keeping alive because the data"},{"startTime":1787.209,"endTime":1788.849,"body":"says it's not viable anymore."},{"startTime":1788.999,"endTime":1796.319,"body":"And also I feel In that environment, the"},{"startTime":1788.999,"endTime":1796.319,"body":"complexity is kept at a minimum level."},{"startTime":1796.409,"endTime":1801.329,"body":"So, you're building an MVP, even if it's"},{"startTime":1796.409,"endTime":1801.329,"body":"again, you were talking about oh, it could"},{"startTime":1801.339,"endTime":1803.199,"body":"be PowerPoint and the user doesn't know."},{"startTime":1803.419,"endTime":1805.839,"body":"Like, I don't think there's a difference"},{"startTime":1803.419,"endTime":1805.839,"body":"between, honestly, I think PowerPoint"},{"startTime":1805.859,"endTime":1809.409,"body":"probably takes more time, but PowerPoint"},{"startTime":1805.859,"endTime":1809.409,"body":"and Figma, like the easiest Figma mock"},{"startTime":1809.409,"endTime":1814.489,"body":"ups, Figma is pretty easy to mock up and"},{"startTime":1809.409,"endTime":1814.489,"body":"you might not even need to mock up Figma."},{"startTime":1814.499,"endTime":1819.999,"body":"You might be able to use low,"},{"startTime":1814.499,"endTime":1819.999,"body":"low fi wireframes to prove like"},{"startTime":1819.999,"endTime":1821.019,"body":"a flow through an application."},{"startTime":1821.019,"endTime":1824.009,"body":"For example, we did this every time"},{"startTime":1821.019,"endTime":1824.009,"body":"we built a mobile app, we would start"},{"startTime":1824.009,"endTime":1826.269,"body":"with low fi wireframes to vet out."},{"startTime":1826.529,"endTime":1827.739,"body":"Yep, absolutely."},{"startTime":1827.749,"endTime":1829.719,"body":"And those low fi wireframes can."},{"startTime":1829.869,"endTime":1833.919,"body":"iteratively become mid fi right"},{"startTime":1829.869,"endTime":1833.919,"body":"before they get you know, so I"},{"startTime":1833.919,"endTime":1837.389,"body":"like those kinds of tools where you"},{"startTime":1833.919,"endTime":1837.389,"body":"can do this sort of thing quickly."},{"startTime":1837.539,"endTime":1841.439,"body":"I guess back in the day we used to call"},{"startTime":1837.539,"endTime":1841.439,"body":"it rapid prototype design or something."},{"startTime":1841.589,"endTime":1845.309,"body":"But then tools like Figma, specifically"},{"startTime":1841.589,"endTime":1845.309,"body":"that one I know about all of that"},{"startTime":1845.309,"endTime":1847.619,"body":"work that you do isn't thrown away."},{"startTime":1847.889,"endTime":1848.719,"body":"It doesn't go to waste."},{"startTime":1848.869,"endTime":1852.109,"body":"Cause it lets you change"},{"startTime":1848.869,"endTime":1852.109,"body":"that into code, right?"},{"startTime":1852.419,"endTime":1855.689,"body":"And so you still get a running start,"},{"startTime":1852.419,"endTime":1855.689,"body":"but you get a start with something"},{"startTime":1855.689,"endTime":1859.199,"body":"that you've tested, that you've"},{"startTime":1855.689,"endTime":1859.199,"body":"proven out with the field, right?"},{"startTime":1859.199,"endTime":1861.109,"body":"You can have focus groups"},{"startTime":1859.199,"endTime":1861.109,"body":"come in and look at that."},{"startTime":1861.119,"endTime":1863.569,"body":"They can poke buttons and"},{"startTime":1861.119,"endTime":1863.569,"body":"they do certain things."},{"startTime":1863.719,"endTime":1864.749,"body":"It's not a product."},{"startTime":1865.024,"endTime":1869.524,"body":"It is a, it is a prototype at that"},{"startTime":1865.024,"endTime":1869.524,"body":"stage, but it's still reacting to the"},{"startTime":1869.534,"endTime":1873.374,"body":"customer as a product would, you're"},{"startTime":1869.534,"endTime":1873.374,"body":"just testing that those scenarios"},{"startTime":1873.374,"endTime":1873.674,"body":"out."},{"startTime":1873.784,"endTime":1874.924,"body":"I mean, it's a product."},{"startTime":1874.934,"endTime":1878.724,"body":"Once you put it in front of a customer,"},{"startTime":1874.934,"endTime":1878.724,"body":"uh, like I keep pushing back on your"},{"startTime":1878.724,"endTime":1882.044,"body":"terminology, like you're, you, you,"},{"startTime":1878.724,"endTime":1882.044,"body":"you want to bend what, what product is."},{"startTime":1882.044,"endTime":1882.304,"body":"I see."},{"startTime":1882.304,"endTime":1884.254,"body":"That's where you're kind of"},{"startTime":1882.304,"endTime":1884.254,"body":"anchoring in conversations."},{"startTime":1884.304,"endTime":1888.984,"body":"It's a product in that it"},{"startTime":1884.304,"endTime":1888.984,"body":"facilitated, it was a product that"},{"startTime":1888.984,"endTime":1893.164,"body":"facilitated our learning about the"},{"startTime":1888.984,"endTime":1893.164,"body":"business viability of this feature"},{"startTime":1893.484,"endTime":1894.334,"body":"or this, no doubt."},{"startTime":1894.354,"endTime":1898.234,"body":"Listen, no doubt from a, from the"},{"startTime":1894.354,"endTime":1898.234,"body":"organization standpoint, it's a product"},{"startTime":1898.264,"endTime":1899.724,"body":"that did something good for you."},{"startTime":1899.754,"endTime":1900.044,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1900.354,"endTime":1905.174,"body":"But from the customer standpoint, it is"},{"startTime":1900.354,"endTime":1905.174,"body":"not a product because not in production."},{"startTime":1905.324,"endTime":1908.684,"body":"It's a prototype at that point,"},{"startTime":1905.324,"endTime":1908.684,"body":"they can come to the table."},{"startTime":1908.694,"endTime":1913.194,"body":"They can play with it, but they're"},{"startTime":1908.694,"endTime":1913.194,"body":"not using it when they start using it,"},{"startTime":1913.524,"endTime":1916.994,"body":"like really using it in production,"},{"startTime":1913.524,"endTime":1916.994,"body":"even if it's limited scope at that"},{"startTime":1916.994,"endTime":1918.634,"body":"point, it becomes a pilot, right?"},{"startTime":1918.654,"endTime":1920.684,"body":"That's a pilot it's in production."},{"startTime":1921.024,"endTime":1924.624,"body":"And now you're way past"},{"startTime":1921.024,"endTime":1924.624,"body":"MVP at this stage, but."},{"startTime":1924.774,"endTime":1928.454,"body":"Just for definition, when it's a"},{"startTime":1924.774,"endTime":1928.454,"body":"pilot, it's actually in production"},{"startTime":1928.454,"endTime":1930.164,"body":"that they can use to do their business."},{"startTime":1930.184,"endTime":1932.594,"body":"It isn't just in the kind of lab, if you"},{"startTime":1932.594,"endTime":1932.794,"body":"will."},{"startTime":1932.814,"endTime":1932.954,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1932.954,"endTime":1936.824,"body":"See, I don't, I don't agree with the"},{"startTime":1932.954,"endTime":1936.824,"body":"def like I don't agree with crowbarring."},{"startTime":1936.844,"endTime":1938.814,"body":"The, I mean, I I'm on both sides of this."},{"startTime":1938.814,"endTime":1939.134,"body":"Actually."},{"startTime":1939.134,"endTime":1941.604,"body":"I'm saying, I don't agree with"},{"startTime":1939.134,"endTime":1941.604,"body":"your definition of product in this"},{"startTime":1941.624,"endTime":1943.314,"body":"instance, because the product."},{"startTime":1943.464,"endTime":1947.674,"body":"Again, could be the Dropbox video, like"},{"startTime":1943.464,"endTime":1947.674,"body":"it could be really anything, but also"},{"startTime":1947.754,"endTime":1950.874,"body":"I understand your, your definition of"},{"startTime":1947.754,"endTime":1950.874,"body":"product being, I actually have to be"},{"startTime":1950.874,"endTime":1954.764,"body":"able to, it needs to be an actual usable,"},{"startTime":1950.874,"endTime":1954.764,"body":"functional, like a customer could buy it,"},{"startTime":1954.914,"endTime":1958.714,"body":"product, customer can pay for it, customer"},{"startTime":1954.914,"endTime":1958.714,"body":"can pay for a product, I understand,"},{"startTime":1958.864,"endTime":1962.254,"body":"but the version of product that I'm"},{"startTime":1958.864,"endTime":1962.254,"body":"talking about, the Eric Reese version of"},{"startTime":1962.254,"endTime":1968.364,"body":"product is all, all I need is, Something"},{"startTime":1962.254,"endTime":1968.364,"body":"to validate the business hypothesis,"},{"startTime":1968.514,"endTime":1970.594,"body":"the viability for the business."},{"startTime":1970.744,"endTime":1971.104,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":1971.124,"endTime":1972.094,"body":"That's, that's, that's it."},{"startTime":1972.114,"endTime":1973.704,"body":"That's the only product I need right now."},{"startTime":1974.054,"endTime":1976.964,"body":"And if that is not maintainable"},{"startTime":1974.054,"endTime":1976.964,"body":"in production, that's okay."},{"startTime":1977.114,"endTime":1980.374,"body":"Because I'm only using"},{"startTime":1977.114,"endTime":1980.374,"body":"it to say this is enough."},{"startTime":1980.524,"endTime":1981.614,"body":"And then we can build something else."},{"startTime":1981.764,"endTime":1982.994,"body":"Or we can move into our prototype."},{"startTime":1982.994,"endTime":1987.314,"body":"We can move into, we can move"},{"startTime":1982.994,"endTime":1987.314,"body":"past the MVP into the actual Alpha"},{"startTime":1987.319,"endTime":1988.574,"body":"product that we're delivering."},{"startTime":1988.724,"endTime":1993.764,"body":"I guess if you're really being a stickler"},{"startTime":1988.724,"endTime":1993.764,"body":"and say that that is an MVP, the P in"},{"startTime":1993.764,"endTime":1995.714,"body":"MVP tells you it's a product, right?"},{"startTime":1995.714,"endTime":1995.804,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":1996.074,"endTime":1996.284,"body":". Yeah."},{"startTime":1996.314,"endTime":1999.374,"body":"It's not a product that anyone's"},{"startTime":1996.314,"endTime":1999.374,"body":"gonna fork over any money for."},{"startTime":1999.374,"endTime":1999.584,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1999.794,"endTime":2001.444,"body":"But you're still learning."},{"startTime":2001.444,"endTime":2002.524,"body":"So is it valuable?"},{"startTime":2002.524,"endTime":2003.329,"body":"Well, yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2003.349,"endTime":2007.914,"body":"That's, that's not true either"},{"startTime":2003.349,"endTime":2007.914,"body":"because the, the Dropbox MVP led to a."},{"startTime":2008.064,"endTime":2010.994,"body":"Sign up you know, a beta sign up"},{"startTime":2008.064,"endTime":2010.994,"body":"and I don't think there was a money"},{"startTime":2011.004,"endTime":2013.624,"body":"exchange in the beta sign up, but, but"},{"startTime":2011.004,"endTime":2013.624,"body":"basically there was no money exchanged."},{"startTime":2013.964,"endTime":2016.614,"body":"There was no, there was no money"},{"startTime":2013.964,"endTime":2016.614,"body":"exchanged, but there was a promise"},{"startTime":2016.764,"endTime":2020.714,"body":"to exchange money in the future"},{"startTime":2016.764,"endTime":2020.714,"body":"when the program came online."},{"startTime":2020.864,"endTime":2022.954,"body":"And, and that was counted again."},{"startTime":2022.984,"endTime":2024.094,"body":"So it's really mind share."},{"startTime":2024.244,"endTime":2025.584,"body":"It's a Silicon Valley love story."},{"startTime":2025.584,"endTime":2028.124,"body":"So it's, it's, it's again,"},{"startTime":2025.584,"endTime":2028.124,"body":"it's a, it's not real money."},{"startTime":2028.124,"endTime":2030.224,"body":"Like it's, it's all fake"},{"startTime":2028.124,"endTime":2030.224,"body":"money on the internet."},{"startTime":2030.264,"endTime":2030.624,"body":"I get it."},{"startTime":2030.684,"endTime":2030.864,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2030.864,"endTime":2031.034,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2031.234,"endTime":2035.294,"body":"but the point still stands there"},{"startTime":2031.234,"endTime":2035.294,"body":"is, is, the promise of value was"},{"startTime":2035.344,"endTime":2039.764,"body":"in that instance for Dropbox was"},{"startTime":2035.344,"endTime":2039.764,"body":"taken as an equal for value as far"},{"startTime":2039.764,"endTime":2041.054,"body":"as the investors were concerned."},{"startTime":2041.204,"endTime":2043.504,"body":"Again, maybe it's normal,"},{"startTime":2041.204,"endTime":2043.504,"body":"normal companies can't do that."},{"startTime":2043.504,"endTime":2047.344,"body":"That's why, that's why like the, my,"},{"startTime":2043.504,"endTime":2047.344,"body":"my biggest problem here about the MVP"},{"startTime":2047.374,"endTime":2049.674,"body":"of like, well, we got to have all these"},{"startTime":2047.374,"endTime":2049.674,"body":"features, it's gotta be in production."},{"startTime":2049.674,"endTime":2051.304,"body":"It's gotta be scalable."},{"startTime":2051.304,"endTime":2054.094,"body":"It's gotta be running in Kubernetes"},{"startTime":2051.304,"endTime":2054.094,"body":"and it's gotta be elastic on the"},{"startTime":2054.104,"endTime":2057.464,"body":"back end where oh, you just scale"},{"startTime":2054.104,"endTime":2057.464,"body":"automatically and all this stuff built in."},{"startTime":2057.614,"endTime":2059.754,"body":"Where are you getting all"},{"startTime":2057.614,"endTime":2059.754,"body":"this time and resources?"},{"startTime":2059.914,"endTime":2063.654,"body":"Where are you getting all this free money"},{"startTime":2059.914,"endTime":2063.654,"body":"to build all these features to add to your"},{"startTime":2064.004,"endTime":2064.364,"body":"MVP?"},{"startTime":2064.444,"endTime":2068.084,"body":"That that's where a lot of companies"},{"startTime":2064.444,"endTime":2068.084,"body":"go belly up because they do all of"},{"startTime":2068.084,"endTime":2069.474,"body":"that, like you were saying, right?"},{"startTime":2069.474,"endTime":2073.704,"body":"Because they feel like if we do all this,"},{"startTime":2069.474,"endTime":2073.704,"body":"we'll be hyper competitive in the market."},{"startTime":2073.924,"endTime":2074.934,"body":"And before you know it."},{"startTime":2075.159,"endTime":2077.544,"body":"They're just another there's"},{"startTime":2075.159,"endTime":2077.544,"body":"just another gravestone."},{"startTime":2077.794,"endTime":2081.684,"body":"So I, I think we're just kind of"},{"startTime":2077.794,"endTime":2081.684,"body":"going around a little bit about the,"},{"startTime":2081.834,"endTime":2083.924,"body":"the definition of what a product is."},{"startTime":2083.964,"endTime":2088.154,"body":"I'm going by the definition in my mind"},{"startTime":2083.964,"endTime":2088.154,"body":"that a product is something that is"},{"startTime":2088.354,"endTime":2092.354,"body":"something that the customer will part"},{"startTime":2088.354,"endTime":2092.354,"body":"money for, but in the case of Dropbox."},{"startTime":2092.504,"endTime":2094.334,"body":"That wasn't the case initially, right?"},{"startTime":2094.334,"endTime":2098.054,"body":"So certainly the website got"},{"startTime":2094.334,"endTime":2098.054,"body":"them enough money to, to go on."},{"startTime":2098.204,"endTime":2102.584,"body":"And with customers, the promise that"},{"startTime":2098.204,"endTime":2102.584,"body":"what's coming later they can sign up for."},{"startTime":2102.734,"endTime":2104.924,"body":"That's really buying"},{"startTime":2102.734,"endTime":2104.924,"body":"Mindshare at that point."},{"startTime":2105.074,"endTime":2108.484,"body":"And if you're buying Mindshare,"},{"startTime":2105.074,"endTime":2108.484,"body":"does that, is that valuable?"},{"startTime":2108.544,"endTime":2109.214,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2109.424,"endTime":2110.994,"body":"Absolutely valuable, right?"},{"startTime":2111.034,"endTime":2112.254,"body":"Is that a product?"},{"startTime":2112.334,"endTime":2113.004,"body":"You could argue."},{"startTime":2113.304,"endTime":2113.774,"body":"Either way,"},{"startTime":2113.924,"endTime":2114.204,"body":"you know."},{"startTime":2114.414,"endTime":2118.534,"body":"That's, that's, I'm firmly in the"},{"startTime":2114.414,"endTime":2118.534,"body":"camp of If the MVP proves that the"},{"startTime":2118.534,"endTime":2123.214,"body":"assumption is correct It proves the"},{"startTime":2118.534,"endTime":2123.214,"body":"business viability of the assumption."},{"startTime":2123.484,"endTime":2127.414,"body":"Then you can consider it a product"},{"startTime":2123.484,"endTime":2127.414,"body":"and you may say, well, there's more to"},{"startTime":2127.414,"endTime":2131.344,"body":"build now, or it's, it's not, it can't,"},{"startTime":2127.414,"endTime":2131.344,"body":"that, that feature can't stand alone."},{"startTime":2131.344,"endTime":2133.284,"body":"We need to add more feet like a"},{"startTime":2131.344,"endTime":2133.284,"body":"hundred percent agree with that."},{"startTime":2133.284,"endTime":2137.244,"body":"But that, but again, that moves"},{"startTime":2133.284,"endTime":2137.244,"body":"you to a different conversation."},{"startTime":2137.304,"endTime":2140.144,"body":"The conversation of what, what"},{"startTime":2137.304,"endTime":2140.144,"body":"does the alpha release look like?"},{"startTime":2140.144,"endTime":2140.754,"body":"What is a release?"},{"startTime":2141.024,"endTime":2142.774,"body":"Basically, what does a"},{"startTime":2141.024,"endTime":2142.774,"body":"release plan look like?"},{"startTime":2143.114,"endTime":2144.154,"body":"Our actual release plan"},{"startTime":2144.304,"endTime":2149.244,"body":"the summary of kind of where we're heading"},{"startTime":2144.304,"endTime":2149.244,"body":"here is I feel that Eric Ries should not"},{"startTime":2149.244,"endTime":2153.339,"body":"have used the term product in his Minimum"},{"startTime":2149.244,"endTime":2153.339,"body":"Viable Product because even, even if you"},{"startTime":2153.339,"endTime":2157.909,"body":"look at the Marty Cagan four Risks, the"},{"startTime":2153.339,"endTime":2157.909,"body":"business viability is one of his risks."},{"startTime":2158.059,"endTime":2163.714,"body":"This is the whole purpose of MVP is to"},{"startTime":2158.059,"endTime":2163.714,"body":"satisfy That the business viability has"},{"startTime":2163.714,"endTime":2167.534,"body":"been taken care of because of technical"},{"startTime":2163.714,"endTime":2167.534,"body":"viability and the usability and all that."},{"startTime":2167.544,"endTime":2169.254,"body":"That's other people's jobs, right?"},{"startTime":2169.404,"endTime":2171.954,"body":"You have dedicated person on"},{"startTime":2169.404,"endTime":2171.954,"body":"your team to deal with those."},{"startTime":2172.124,"endTime":2175.594,"body":"But the product owner or the product"},{"startTime":2172.124,"endTime":2175.594,"body":"manager should be dealing with business"},{"startTime":2175.594,"endTime":2178.414,"body":"viability of the ideas coming in."},{"startTime":2178.424,"endTime":2182.534,"body":"And in order to do that, like they"},{"startTime":2178.424,"endTime":2182.534,"body":"can't be, I mean, I guess maybe"},{"startTime":2182.534,"endTime":2186.864,"body":"some people have teams that just"},{"startTime":2182.534,"endTime":2186.864,"body":"build functional, completely working"},{"startTime":2187.014,"endTime":2189.864,"body":"features to test if something's."},{"startTime":2190.014,"endTime":2193.834,"body":"Viable, but that concept seems the"},{"startTime":2190.014,"endTime":2193.834,"body":"opposite of where you want to go to me,"},{"startTime":2193.954,"endTime":2196.904,"body":"it would seem you wouldn't, you would"},{"startTime":2193.954,"endTime":2196.904,"body":"not want to, you would want to fake the"},{"startTime":2196.904,"endTime":2201.834,"body":"data, fake the forms, fake everything to"},{"startTime":2196.904,"endTime":2201.834,"body":"make it look like it works, go get your"},{"startTime":2201.834,"endTime":2205.104,"body":"target audience, have them look at it, and"},{"startTime":2201.834,"endTime":2205.104,"body":"then give you something like, oh, that,"},{"startTime":2205.144,"endTime":2209.204,"body":"that's exactly what we need to get that"},{"startTime":2205.144,"endTime":2209.204,"body":"aha moment, and then you take it to your"},{"startTime":2209.204,"endTime":2210.604,"body":"development team to start building actual"},{"startTime":2210.604,"endTime":2210.904,"body":"things."},{"startTime":2211.064,"endTime":2214.114,"body":"And you do that with the least"},{"startTime":2211.064,"endTime":2214.114,"body":"amount of effort and time"},{"startTime":2214.244,"endTime":2215.274,"body":"that that's really the goal."},{"startTime":2215.274,"endTime":2216.964,"body":"So I think the whole thing hinges around."},{"startTime":2217.114,"endTime":2221.344,"body":"You know, testing the feasibility"},{"startTime":2217.114,"endTime":2221.344,"body":"and making sure that customers will."},{"startTime":2221.494,"endTime":2223.584,"body":"A like it and pay for it, right?"},{"startTime":2223.634,"endTime":2227.124,"body":"I mean, you don't have to build the whole"},{"startTime":2223.634,"endTime":2227.124,"body":"thing out or even partially build it out."},{"startTime":2227.324,"endTime":2230.034,"body":"You just have to do enough"},{"startTime":2227.324,"endTime":2230.034,"body":"to gauge that interest level."},{"startTime":2230.124,"endTime":2231.544,"body":"That's really what it's all about."},{"startTime":2231.544,"endTime":2236.134,"body":"I think this is gauging the interest level"},{"startTime":2231.544,"endTime":2236.134,"body":"and having the right kind of audience"},{"startTime":2236.284,"endTime":2238.414,"body":"be willing to say, yes, we like this."},{"startTime":2238.494,"endTime":2238.784,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2238.824,"endTime":2240.344,"body":"And then you can move ahead with that."},{"startTime":2240.629,"endTime":2243.869,"body":"A lot of this conversation is conceptual"},{"startTime":2240.629,"endTime":2243.869,"body":"and a lot of people probably will take"},{"startTime":2243.869,"endTime":2247.699,"body":"it as conceptual because I understand"},{"startTime":2243.869,"endTime":2247.699,"body":"like the, when you validate the idea"},{"startTime":2247.699,"endTime":2251.509,"body":"and flow seamlessly into building the"},{"startTime":2247.699,"endTime":2251.509,"body":"product, it happens quick and it when,"},{"startTime":2251.539,"endTime":2252.939,"body":"when you, when you hit product market fit."},{"startTime":2253.089,"endTime":2255.099,"body":"You'll know it, you'll be super busy."},{"startTime":2255.419,"endTime":2256.499,"body":"Money will be rolling in."},{"startTime":2256.649,"endTime":2258.299,"body":"You won't care about any"},{"startTime":2256.649,"endTime":2258.299,"body":"of this, any of this."},{"startTime":2258.539,"endTime":2260.429,"body":"Conceptuality, is that a real word?"},{"startTime":2260.519,"endTime":2261.089,"body":"Conceptuality?"},{"startTime":2261.149,"endTime":2261.689,"body":"Yeah, it is."},{"startTime":2261.824,"endTime":2262.184,"body":"I think it is."},{"startTime":2262.189,"endTime":2263.069,"body":"It's conceptuality."},{"startTime":2263.069,"endTime":2264.149,"body":"There's inception."},{"startTime":2264.149,"endTime":2264.509,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2264.809,"endTime":2265.739,"body":"Conceptuality."},{"startTime":2265.829,"endTime":2266.279,"body":"Nevermind."},{"startTime":2266.284,"endTime":2266.864,"body":"It's Conceptuality."},{"startTime":2266.894,"endTime":2268.319,"body":"It's, that sounds like a good movie."},{"startTime":2268.589,"endTime":2268.8,"body":"It's not."},{"startTime":2268.805,"endTime":2270.871,"body":"It's, it's a, it's a"},{"startTime":2268.805,"endTime":2270.871,"body":"concept inside of a concept."},{"startTime":2270.901,"endTime":2271.951,"body":"Inside of another concept."},{"startTime":2272.026,"endTime":2276.016,"body":"The point in my brain is I"},{"startTime":2272.026,"endTime":2276.016,"body":"don't want to conflate MVP with"},{"startTime":2276.016,"endTime":2280.066,"body":"everything that comes after MVP"},{"startTime":2276.016,"endTime":2280.066,"body":"because I want, I want the testing."},{"startTime":2280.216,"endTime":2285.006,"body":"Of business viability to be done over"},{"startTime":2280.216,"endTime":2285.006,"body":"here with this, this specific mindset."},{"startTime":2285.156,"endTime":2288.946,"body":"And then when you need to move to say,"},{"startTime":2285.156,"endTime":2288.946,"body":"well, well, let me do the story map."},{"startTime":2289.146,"endTime":2293.456,"body":"And now that we've validated all these"},{"startTime":2289.146,"endTime":2293.456,"body":"assumptions in our story map, let me"},{"startTime":2293.456,"endTime":2295.286,"body":"actually start building these things."},{"startTime":2295.401,"endTime":2298.351,"body":"Starting with the first thing that"},{"startTime":2295.401,"endTime":2298.351,"body":"we checked for business viability."},{"startTime":2298.551,"endTime":2300.751,"body":"Let me start building that"},{"startTime":2298.551,"endTime":2300.751,"body":"while I test these other things."},{"startTime":2300.971,"endTime":2305.501,"body":"And now you know that the path is"},{"startTime":2300.971,"endTime":2305.501,"body":"clear to start building your beta"},{"startTime":2305.501,"endTime":2308.411,"body":"release or your alpha release or"},{"startTime":2305.501,"endTime":2308.411,"body":"whatever your release planning."},{"startTime":2308.441,"endTime":2311.431,"body":"so release planning and,"},{"startTime":2308.441,"endTime":2311.431,"body":"and the whole, the whole."},{"startTime":2311.581,"endTime":2316.621,"body":"Discipline and skill set of what it takes"},{"startTime":2311.581,"endTime":2316.621,"body":"to do your feature mapping and do your"},{"startTime":2316.621,"endTime":2319.021,"body":"story mapping and do your release planning"},{"startTime":2319.131,"endTime":2323.231,"body":"yeah, yeah, that is a different skill set"},{"startTime":2319.131,"endTime":2323.231,"body":"than the testing that I'm talking about,"},{"startTime":2323.306,"endTime":2326.336,"body":"and I feel a lot of these four points"},{"startTime":2323.306,"endTime":2326.336,"body":"that we started with a lot of these,"},{"startTime":2326.336,"endTime":2328.176,"body":"Oh no, MVP can be whatever you want."},{"startTime":2328.426,"endTime":2329.386,"body":"I feel they."},{"startTime":2329.536,"endTime":2332.786,"body":"Are taking both sides of that and"},{"startTime":2329.536,"endTime":2332.786,"body":"smashing it together and be like, well,"},{"startTime":2332.786,"endTime":2334.356,"body":"you can't have one without the other."},{"startTime":2334.386,"endTime":2334.616,"body":"Yeah"},{"startTime":2334.766,"endTime":2338.056,"body":"Yeah, I, I, so first of all, I want"},{"startTime":2334.766,"endTime":2338.056,"body":"to say this, the scenario you just"},{"startTime":2338.056,"endTime":2341.996,"body":"outlined where you do your testing and"},{"startTime":2338.056,"endTime":2341.996,"body":"then you move seamless into a product,"},{"startTime":2342.146,"endTime":2346.016,"body":"it's a pipe dream almost, because"},{"startTime":2342.146,"endTime":2346.016,"body":"you're probably going to have many,"},{"startTime":2346.026,"endTime":2350.896,"body":"many different avenues you go down and"},{"startTime":2346.026,"endTime":2350.896,"body":"discard these various hypotheses that"},{"startTime":2350.896,"endTime":2352.516,"body":"you test because it just didn't work out."},{"startTime":2352.666,"endTime":2354.116,"body":"At least they were data driven."},{"startTime":2354.186,"endTime":2356.106,"body":"That, that's really my"},{"startTime":2354.186,"endTime":2356.106,"body":"point about this, right?"},{"startTime":2356.106,"endTime":2357.016,"body":"So I agree with that."},{"startTime":2357.166,"endTime":2360.966,"body":"And I, I think , MVP, MXP, MZP,"},{"startTime":2357.166,"endTime":2360.966,"body":"whatever you want to call it."},{"startTime":2361.116,"endTime":2365.406,"body":"Learn from the slow, the smallest"},{"startTime":2361.116,"endTime":2365.406,"body":"increment you can put in front of"},{"startTime":2365.426,"endTime":2369.396,"body":"potential audiences and iterate"},{"startTime":2365.426,"endTime":2369.396,"body":"from there on to learn from."},{"startTime":2369.506,"endTime":2370.636,"body":"Yeah, that might be it."},{"startTime":2370.666,"endTime":2372.176,"body":"Actually, I think that's it."},{"startTime":2372.226,"endTime":2375.626,"body":"I think this was actually a good arguing"},{"startTime":2372.226,"endTime":2375.626,"body":"agile because some of this stuff we"},{"startTime":2375.626,"endTime":2378.496,"body":"agreed on some of the stuff, some of"},{"startTime":2375.626,"endTime":2378.496,"body":"the stuff we never really met in the"},{"startTime":2378.496,"endTime":2382.156,"body":"middle on that's okay because it's"},{"startTime":2378.496,"endTime":2382.156,"body":"arguing agile and  If you're a product"},{"startTime":2382.156,"endTime":2385.996,"body":"manager, scrum master, whoever you are"},{"startTime":2382.156,"endTime":2385.996,"body":"listening to, the developer, whoever"},{"startTime":2385.996,"endTime":2390.486,"body":"you're listening to this  whatever your"},{"startTime":2385.996,"endTime":2390.486,"body":"experiences are with MVP hopefully we've"},{"startTime":2390.496,"endTime":2394.166,"body":"captured that in one of our discussions"},{"startTime":2390.496,"endTime":2394.166,"body":"here and you have something to take away."},{"startTime":2394.491,"endTime":2398.141,"body":"Back to your work to maybe, maybe push"},{"startTime":2394.491,"endTime":2398.141,"body":"back on to say, Hey, maybe we should"},{"startTime":2398.141,"endTime":2403.131,"body":"be doing a testing business viability"},{"startTime":2398.141,"endTime":2403.131,"body":"separate from the alpha beta GA"},{"startTime":2403.331,"endTime":2405.241,"body":"cycle where we're, we're here."},{"startTime":2405.241,"endTime":2406.081,"body":"You know where to find us."},{"startTime":2406.251,"endTime":2409.481,"body":"If we've missed anything, please"},{"startTime":2406.251,"endTime":2409.481,"body":"let us know in the comments below."},{"startTime":2409.541,"endTime":2411.871,"body":"And while you're there,"},{"startTime":2409.541,"endTime":2411.871,"body":"don't forget to subscribe"},{"startTime":2411.871,"endTime":2412.771,"body":"and like that's true."}]}