{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.979,"body":"Your Next Scrum Master"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.979,"body":"Should Be Your Manager."},{"startTime":3.98,"endTime":7.96,"body":"Om um, I found this article  and I"},{"startTime":3.98,"endTime":7.96,"body":"thought it was super interesting."},{"startTime":7.96,"endTime":9.48,"body":"I wanted to discuss it on the podcast."},{"startTime":9.63,"endTime":12.83,"body":"Yeah, I remember reading the article"},{"startTime":9.63,"endTime":12.83,"body":"when I was out of the country and"},{"startTime":12.83,"endTime":14.28,"body":"this is a good one today, folks."},{"startTime":14.51,"endTime":18.33,"body":"It's fairly recent, November"},{"startTime":14.51,"endTime":18.33,"body":"20th, 2023 Ryan Ripley."},{"startTime":18.62,"endTime":22.295,"body":"I wanted to examine this because"},{"startTime":18.62,"endTime":22.295,"body":"I posted the article to, to our"},{"startTime":22.295,"endTime":23.405,"body":"channel so you could read it."},{"startTime":23.455,"endTime":24.955,"body":"I read it twice actually."},{"startTime":25.015,"endTime":28.375,"body":"One once, just before we started"},{"startTime":25.015,"endTime":28.375,"body":"recording to make sure I didn't miss."},{"startTime":28.525,"endTime":29.035,"body":"Read it."},{"startTime":29.305,"endTime":34.11,"body":"And in the opening of the article Ryan"},{"startTime":29.305,"endTime":34.11,"body":"says that they had a your daily scrum"},{"startTime":34.39,"endTime":39.63,"body":"episode called can a manager be the"},{"startTime":34.39,"endTime":39.63,"body":"scrum master, the in caps For some"},{"startTime":39.63,"endTime":42.4,"body":"reason, I don't know why it's caps"},{"startTime":39.63,"endTime":42.4,"body":"and, where they talked through it and"},{"startTime":42.4,"endTime":45.55,"body":"the general consensus in that episode"},{"startTime":42.4,"endTime":45.55,"body":"was no, they probably shouldn't."},{"startTime":45.7,"endTime":46.96,"body":"And then there was two years later."},{"startTime":47.11,"endTime":49.45,"body":"Some sort of reversal happened."},{"startTime":49.46,"endTime":51.79,"body":"It's a magic where they've"},{"startTime":49.46,"endTime":51.79,"body":"changed their opinion."},{"startTime":52.02,"endTime":57.08,"body":"I think it's interesting to read this"},{"startTime":52.02,"endTime":57.08,"body":"article  on its own in a vacuum to see"},{"startTime":57.08,"endTime":60.54,"body":"what our reactions are to see if we agree"},{"startTime":57.08,"endTime":60.54,"body":"or disagree with the points in here."},{"startTime":60.69,"endTime":61.93,"body":"I'm not going to be going"},{"startTime":60.69,"endTime":61.93,"body":"through the comments."},{"startTime":62.08,"endTime":64.03,"body":"Well, in all honesty, I"},{"startTime":62.08,"endTime":64.03,"body":"didn't read the comments."},{"startTime":64.03,"endTime":67.18,"body":"I only read the article, so I'm"},{"startTime":64.03,"endTime":67.18,"body":"probably at a disadvantage with that."},{"startTime":67.24,"endTime":71.08,"body":"I read all the comments, so that's"},{"startTime":67.24,"endTime":71.08,"body":"probably a disadvantage for life."},{"startTime":72.167,"endTime":77.175,"body":"so he starts the article describing"},{"startTime":72.167,"endTime":77.175,"body":"that their advice was to avoid the"},{"startTime":77.175,"endTime":81.545,"body":"anti pattern due to the challenges of"},{"startTime":77.175,"endTime":81.545,"body":"maintaining openness, focus, and effective"},{"startTime":81.545,"endTime":83.005,"body":"self management within the scrum team."},{"startTime":83.295,"endTime":85.215,"body":"And then he says that they"},{"startTime":83.295,"endTime":85.215,"body":"were wrong about that."},{"startTime":85.365,"endTime":88.255,"body":"So two years have gone by and"},{"startTime":85.365,"endTime":88.255,"body":"now they're completely doing 180."},{"startTime":88.305,"endTime":88.695,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":88.845,"endTime":92.655,"body":"And then he says the organization should"},{"startTime":88.845,"endTime":92.655,"body":"stop hiring scrum masters and empower"},{"startTime":92.655,"endTime":97.285,"body":"delivery managers and directors to take"},{"startTime":92.655,"endTime":97.285,"body":"on the scrum master accountabilities."},{"startTime":97.955,"endTime":98.165,"body":"Alright,"},{"startTime":98.225,"endTime":101.885,"body":"that's the opening statement the article"},{"startTime":98.225,"endTime":101.885,"body":"this people should the organization"},{"startTime":101.885,"endTime":106.885,"body":"should stop hiring scrum masters"},{"startTime":101.885,"endTime":106.885,"body":"and I'm scared Well, I mean, this is"},{"startTime":106.915,"endTime":108.765,"body":"this is quite a quite a salvo here."},{"startTime":108.915,"endTime":112.165,"body":"So if organizations stop hiring"},{"startTime":108.915,"endTime":112.165,"body":"scrum masters, there's suddenly"},{"startTime":112.315,"endTime":115.365,"body":"Give the accountabilities of the"},{"startTime":112.315,"endTime":115.365,"body":"Scrum Master to their delivery"},{"startTime":115.365,"endTime":118.945,"body":"managers, project managers, I guess"},{"startTime":115.365,"endTime":118.945,"body":"and directors, I think he says that."},{"startTime":118.955,"endTime":123.755,"body":"Oh, right, yeah,  he says delivery"},{"startTime":118.955,"endTime":123.755,"body":"manager, but my brain translates"},{"startTime":123.755,"endTime":125.615,"body":"delivery manager into project manager."},{"startTime":125.765,"endTime":126.285,"body":"Essentially."},{"startTime":126.285,"endTime":129.045,"body":"That's what they're doing because"},{"startTime":126.285,"endTime":129.045,"body":"the majority of delivery managers"},{"startTime":129.045,"endTime":131.285,"body":"I've ever seen, heard of interface."},{"startTime":131.435,"endTime":133.125,"body":"They're basically project managers."},{"startTime":133.275,"endTime":133.595,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":133.605,"endTime":134.005,"body":"Agreed with that."},{"startTime":134.155,"endTime":138.845,"body":"So, so let's think about an organization"},{"startTime":134.155,"endTime":138.845,"body":"who's made this decision like today."},{"startTime":139.165,"endTime":140.735,"body":"They're not gonna hire"},{"startTime":139.165,"endTime":140.735,"body":"scrummasters, right?"},{"startTime":140.735,"endTime":143.725,"body":"They're gonna take these delivery"},{"startTime":140.735,"endTime":143.725,"body":"managers and directors and they're"},{"startTime":143.725,"endTime":145.895,"body":"gonna say, you all are now scrummasters."},{"startTime":146.215,"endTime":147.365,"body":"How does that happen?"},{"startTime":147.385,"endTime":150.535,"body":"Because scrummasters have a"},{"startTime":147.385,"endTime":150.535,"body":"certain how, how should I put this?"},{"startTime":150.545,"endTime":150.885,"body":"Genesequa?"},{"startTime":150.885,"endTime":153.815,"body":"Yeah, Genesequa."},{"startTime":153.825,"endTime":158.765,"body":"So they, they have they have this"},{"startTime":153.825,"endTime":158.765,"body":"notion of servitude that they, they"},{"startTime":158.765,"endTime":160.775,"body":"understand how to work with a team."},{"startTime":161.055,"endTime":163.635,"body":"They understand how to"},{"startTime":161.055,"endTime":163.635,"body":"harness the power of a team."},{"startTime":163.785,"endTime":167.055,"body":"Those skill sets, I guess,"},{"startTime":163.785,"endTime":167.055,"body":"or traits, attributes."},{"startTime":167.085,"endTime":168.595,"body":"They're not traditionally present."},{"startTime":168.615,"endTime":174.085,"body":"If you're a project manager or director,"},{"startTime":168.615,"endTime":174.085,"body":"you're more used to directing, right?"},{"startTime":174.165,"endTime":175.925,"body":"Command and control type of direction."},{"startTime":176.075,"endTime":178.375,"body":"Do this, do this by this date right?"},{"startTime":178.635,"endTime":180.235,"body":"Scrum Masters shouldn't be doing that."},{"startTime":180.325,"endTime":181.655,"body":"Most Scrum Masters don't do that."},{"startTime":181.875,"endTime":185.797,"body":"So how do you get suddenly So,"},{"startTime":181.875,"endTime":185.797,"body":"how do you, in  very quickly have"},{"startTime":185.797,"endTime":189.118,"body":"these um, delivery managers and"},{"startTime":185.797,"endTime":189.118,"body":"directors act as scrum masters?"},{"startTime":189.118,"endTime":190.748,"body":"How do you make the shift?"},{"startTime":190.898,"endTime":192.858,"body":"That is something that I"},{"startTime":190.898,"endTime":192.858,"body":"can't get my head around."},{"startTime":193.088,"endTime":193.928,"body":"Let's, let's get it."},{"startTime":193.938,"endTime":195.288,"body":"So, the article is pretty short."},{"startTime":195.288,"endTime":198.418,"body":"So, let's get into the"},{"startTime":195.288,"endTime":198.418,"body":"meat of the article."},{"startTime":198.418,"endTime":198.748,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":198.868,"endTime":201.578,"body":"The majority of the"},{"startTime":198.868,"endTime":201.578,"body":"calories of the article."},{"startTime":201.728,"endTime":203.308,"body":"For those of you who don't eat meat."},{"startTime":203.458,"endTime":204.878,"body":"Get into the middle of the tofu."},{"startTime":204.968,"endTime":208.548,"body":"For years, I've expressed the standard"},{"startTime":204.968,"endTime":208.548,"body":"advice that a scrum master should seek"},{"startTime":208.548,"endTime":213.308,"body":"to lead by example to compensate for"},{"startTime":208.548,"endTime":213.308,"body":"not having positional authority over."},{"startTime":213.458,"endTime":217.478,"body":"A scrum team by being a role model"},{"startTime":213.458,"endTime":217.478,"body":"for team We as scrum masters could"},{"startTime":217.488,"endTime":221.648,"body":"demonstrate the behavior attitudes and"},{"startTime":217.488,"endTime":221.648,"body":"values we want to see our teams follow."},{"startTime":221.658,"endTime":226.068,"body":"Okay, so you're modeling behavior rather"},{"startTime":221.658,"endTime":226.068,"body":"than telling or what I get it The point"},{"startTime":226.068,"endTime":229.388,"body":"I was making, yeah, the theory is that"},{"startTime":226.068,"endTime":229.388,"body":"we are, if we are humble, coachable,"},{"startTime":229.428,"endTime":233.648,"body":"and leadable, leadables, I don't know"},{"startTime":229.428,"endTime":233.648,"body":"if that's a word, we can encourage"},{"startTime":233.688,"endTime":235.268,"body":"others to take on those qualities."},{"startTime":235.268,"endTime":238.308,"body":"Digging deeper into the theoretical"},{"startTime":235.268,"endTime":238.308,"body":"discussion, you'll find distinctions"},{"startTime":238.308,"endTime":241.518,"body":"made between using positional"},{"startTime":238.308,"endTime":241.518,"body":"authority, often referred to as"},{"startTime":241.748,"endTime":244.728,"body":"command and control or micromanagement"},{"startTime":241.748,"endTime":244.728,"body":"and true leadership that inspires"},{"startTime":244.728,"endTime":247.128,"body":"and motivates through the behaviors,"},{"startTime":244.728,"endTime":247.128,"body":"attitudes, and values mentioned above."},{"startTime":247.278,"endTime":249.888,"body":"Establishing credibility as"},{"startTime":247.278,"endTime":249.888,"body":"a scrum master can be tricky."},{"startTime":250.088,"endTime":253.818,"body":"Nothing is more critical in modern"},{"startTime":250.088,"endTime":253.818,"body":"organizations than delivering product"},{"startTime":253.978,"endTime":256.878,"body":"and value as soon as reasonably possible."},{"startTime":257.108,"endTime":260.058,"body":"The theory sounds lovely, but"},{"startTime":257.108,"endTime":260.058,"body":"it isn't practical or helpful."},{"startTime":260.088,"endTime":264.108,"body":"I want to start back on distinctions"},{"startTime":260.088,"endTime":264.108,"body":"made between using positional"},{"startTime":264.108,"endTime":266.078,"body":"authority and true leadership."},{"startTime":266.228,"endTime":271.508,"body":"And what he claims positional authority"},{"startTime":266.228,"endTime":271.508,"body":"as command and control or micromanaging."},{"startTime":271.608,"endTime":274.548,"body":"I don't, I don't know if that's"},{"startTime":271.608,"endTime":274.548,"body":"true positional authority."},{"startTime":274.548,"endTime":278.718,"body":"I mean, yes, positional authority could"},{"startTime":274.548,"endTime":278.718,"body":"invoke those behaviors, but he's gonna"},{"startTime":278.718,"endTime":280.438,"body":"he's gonna go on in his points later."},{"startTime":280.618,"endTime":284.828,"body":"Spoiler alert He's gonna go on his"},{"startTime":280.618,"endTime":284.828,"body":"points later to say that the positional"},{"startTime":284.828,"endTime":287.148,"body":"authority May be used appropriately."},{"startTime":287.208,"endTime":291.778,"body":"And I think it's a lynchpin of the"},{"startTime":287.208,"endTime":291.778,"body":"argument here is People need to"},{"startTime":291.788,"endTime":297.108,"body":"use their quote power responsibly"},{"startTime":291.788,"endTime":297.108,"body":"I feel like that's a slogan . Yeah."},{"startTime":297.108,"endTime":298.098,"body":"That's the Spider Man."},{"startTime":298.358,"endTime":298.628,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":298.628,"endTime":300.838,"body":"That's like with great power"},{"startTime":298.628,"endTime":300.838,"body":"comes great responsibility."},{"startTime":300.838,"endTime":301.248,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":301.278,"endTime":304.008,"body":"But if you look at the players here,"},{"startTime":301.278,"endTime":304.008,"body":"right, you've got scrum masters,"},{"startTime":304.038,"endTime":307.678,"body":"you've got delivery managers, project"},{"startTime":304.038,"endTime":307.678,"body":"managers, and the like directors"},{"startTime":307.828,"endTime":313.328,"body":"who has historically been using this"},{"startTime":307.828,"endTime":313.328,"body":"positional authority to their advantage."},{"startTime":313.388,"endTime":316.098,"body":"I mean, I've not really met"},{"startTime":313.388,"endTime":316.098,"body":"that many scrum masters."},{"startTime":316.248,"endTime":318.838,"body":"I've met some rookie scrum"},{"startTime":316.248,"endTime":318.838,"body":"masters that are just basically"},{"startTime":318.838,"endTime":319.918,"body":"doing scrum by the book."},{"startTime":320.068,"endTime":325.328,"body":"But discounting those, it's usually"},{"startTime":320.068,"endTime":325.328,"body":"delivery managers that are exercising"},{"startTime":325.478,"endTime":327.728,"body":"authority, that's what I've seen anyway."},{"startTime":327.878,"endTime":331.298,"body":"So, he's saying that establishing"},{"startTime":327.878,"endTime":331.298,"body":"credibility can be tricky, but"},{"startTime":331.308,"endTime":332.648,"body":"that's true no matter what though."},{"startTime":332.658,"endTime":336.668,"body":"It's trickier if you're a delivery"},{"startTime":332.658,"endTime":336.668,"body":"manager and you're coming in and"},{"startTime":336.668,"endTime":340.538,"body":"trying to establish credibility,"},{"startTime":336.668,"endTime":340.538,"body":"trust with your team, that's hard"},{"startTime":340.588,"endTime":345.888,"body":"because that very team was used to"},{"startTime":340.588,"endTime":345.888,"body":"quote unquote reporting up into you."},{"startTime":346.038,"endTime":348.588,"body":"And now you're just part of the team."},{"startTime":348.708,"endTime":350.828,"body":"I mean, it's it's a tough sell for me."},{"startTime":350.978,"endTime":354.194,"body":"I feel like the team maybe"},{"startTime":350.978,"endTime":354.194,"body":"I'll save this for later."},{"startTime":354.194,"endTime":355.953,"body":"I feel like the team isn't"},{"startTime":354.194,"endTime":355.953,"body":"going to I don't know."},{"startTime":356.103,"endTime":360.113,"body":"Openly embrace you in that role,"},{"startTime":356.103,"endTime":360.113,"body":"even though it's a title that"},{"startTime":360.113,"endTime":362.473,"body":"you're a scrum master now, but you"},{"startTime":360.113,"endTime":362.473,"body":"really were a delivery manager."},{"startTime":362.473,"endTime":365.493,"body":"It's going to be hard for you not to"},{"startTime":362.473,"endTime":365.493,"body":"continue acting as a delivery man."},{"startTime":365.643,"endTime":367.573,"body":"Well, let's, let's let's sort"},{"startTime":365.643,"endTime":367.573,"body":"through the rest of the article."},{"startTime":367.573,"endTime":370.383,"body":"So he says theory sounds lovely,"},{"startTime":367.573,"endTime":370.383,"body":"but it isn't practical or helpful."},{"startTime":370.663,"endTime":374.593,"body":"Bottom line is the point of scrum"},{"startTime":370.663,"endTime":374.593,"body":"is getting to done, done in caps."},{"startTime":374.793,"endTime":378.523,"body":"Delivery manager is best suited to help"},{"startTime":374.793,"endTime":378.523,"body":"a team deliver or gets done instead"},{"startTime":378.523,"endTime":383.383,"body":"of setting up the delivery manager or"},{"startTime":378.523,"endTime":383.383,"body":"director as at worst the enemy and at"},{"startTime":383.383,"endTime":387.153,"body":"best a person who doesn't understand"},{"startTime":383.383,"endTime":387.153,"body":"what it means to quote be agile"},{"startTime":387.303,"endTime":390.713,"body":"we must empower the delivery"},{"startTime":387.303,"endTime":390.713,"body":"manager to take on the scrum master"},{"startTime":390.713,"endTime":394.423,"body":"accountabilities to increase the scrum"},{"startTime":390.713,"endTime":394.423,"body":"team's effectiveness and help them okay."},{"startTime":394.573,"endTime":398.523,"body":"I didn't, I, this paragraph, I can't,"},{"startTime":394.573,"endTime":398.523,"body":"I can't come along with this paragraph"},{"startTime":398.523,"endTime":402.163,"body":"because I didn't understand that there"},{"startTime":398.523,"endTime":402.163,"body":"was a jump that was made to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":402.313,"endTime":404.293,"body":"the bottom line is getting things done."},{"startTime":404.443,"endTime":408.113,"body":"The delivery manager is the best"},{"startTime":404.443,"endTime":408.113,"body":"person suited to get things to done."},{"startTime":408.263,"endTime":412.453,"body":"Which I don't know if I agree with"},{"startTime":408.263,"endTime":412.453,"body":"that because again, this is a project"},{"startTime":412.453,"endTime":415.213,"body":"manager We're talking about sure and"},{"startTime":412.453,"endTime":415.213,"body":"then instead of setting them up to"},{"startTime":415.213,"endTime":417.063,"body":"fail Which is the these two sentences"},{"startTime":417.213,"endTime":421.415,"body":"let's have them take on the accountability"},{"startTime":417.213,"endTime":421.415,"body":"of basically having them take the scrum"},{"startTime":421.415,"endTime":426.045,"body":"teams effectiveness on and then let them"},{"startTime":421.415,"endTime":426.045,"body":"improve their skills in that pursuit Which"},{"startTime":426.195,"endTime":430.475,"body":"if framing the frame that way I can come"},{"startTime":426.195,"endTime":430.475,"body":"along with the rest of the Discussion."},{"startTime":430.475,"endTime":430.705,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":430.865,"endTime":431.035,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":431.185,"endTime":434.605,"body":"So how to do that would be my very"},{"startTime":431.185,"endTime":434.605,"body":"next, like if we were sitting together"},{"startTime":434.615,"endTime":436.855,"body":"having this conversation, I'd be"},{"startTime":434.615,"endTime":436.855,"body":"well, where are you going to start?"},{"startTime":437.055,"endTime":439.455,"body":"I would rather start with a director"},{"startTime":437.055,"endTime":439.455,"body":"than start with a project manager."},{"startTime":439.505,"endTime":442.685,"body":"I would think that I could like the"},{"startTime":439.505,"endTime":442.685,"body":"director has some skin in the game."},{"startTime":442.835,"endTime":445.975,"body":"The project managers is they're"},{"startTime":442.835,"endTime":445.975,"body":"assigned temporarily They don't"},{"startTime":445.985,"endTime":447.475,"body":"need to replace people on the team."},{"startTime":447.525,"endTime":447.955,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":447.955,"endTime":451.685,"body":"They can burn some people,"},{"startTime":447.955,"endTime":451.685,"body":"marginalize some other people, as"},{"startTime":451.685,"endTime":453.795,"body":"long as they're getting through"},{"startTime":451.685,"endTime":453.795,"body":"their deliverables to the end of the"},{"startTime":453.795,"endTime":455.635,"body":"project and looking good on paper."},{"startTime":455.635,"endTime":458.745,"body":"I guess you could say if your project"},{"startTime":455.635,"endTime":458.745,"body":"manager has a budget and hired the team,"},{"startTime":458.745,"endTime":460.735,"body":"then they would be the delivery manager."},{"startTime":460.735,"endTime":462.585,"body":"I guess that, that maybe"},{"startTime":460.735,"endTime":462.585,"body":"in that kind of world."},{"startTime":462.735,"endTime":465.605,"body":"When we talk about delivery management"},{"startTime":462.735,"endTime":465.605,"body":"a little bit later, let's talk"},{"startTime":465.605,"endTime":466.495,"body":"about it from that perspective."},{"startTime":466.495,"endTime":469.405,"body":"Is it the idea that your project manager"},{"startTime":466.495,"endTime":469.405,"body":"has the budget, and they've hired"},{"startTime":469.405,"endTime":472.145,"body":"the whole team, and everyone on the"},{"startTime":469.405,"endTime":472.145,"body":"team basically works up through them."},{"startTime":472.295,"endTime":474.795,"body":"So who better accomplished goal"},{"startTime":472.295,"endTime":474.795,"body":"than the manager of the team?"},{"startTime":474.995,"endTime":478.385,"body":"Many argue that such a role conflict"},{"startTime":474.995,"endTime":478.385,"body":"will negatively impact a scrum"},{"startTime":478.395,"endTime":481.305,"body":"team's empowerment, self management"},{"startTime":478.395,"endTime":481.305,"body":"and continuous improvement."},{"startTime":481.455,"endTime":483.765,"body":"The manager can make decisions"},{"startTime":481.455,"endTime":483.765,"body":"traditionally made by scrum"},{"startTime":483.765,"endTime":486.505,"body":"teams and they might not be"},{"startTime":483.765,"endTime":486.505,"body":"well versed in scrum practices."},{"startTime":486.505,"endTime":489.435,"body":"It could be difficult for managers to"},{"startTime":486.505,"endTime":489.435,"body":"serve the scrum team and fill their"},{"startTime":489.455,"endTime":491.165,"body":"organizational responsibilities."},{"startTime":491.505,"endTime":493.155,"body":"Okay, I mean both good points."},{"startTime":493.305,"endTime":498.615,"body":"If I'm going to side with the author"},{"startTime":493.305,"endTime":498.615,"body":"here and say positives for rolling"},{"startTime":498.615,"endTime":502.015,"body":"the manager in, To the scrum master"},{"startTime":498.615,"endTime":502.015,"body":"responsibilities and with the manager"},{"startTime":502.165,"endTime":505.945,"body":"the manager can just say  this"},{"startTime":502.165,"endTime":505.945,"body":"team is not working using Kanban."},{"startTime":506.075,"endTime":507.035,"body":"You're gonna use Scrum now."},{"startTime":507.185,"endTime":507.875,"body":"And then that's it."},{"startTime":507.875,"endTime":510.81,"body":"The we don't need to have sessions"},{"startTime":507.875,"endTime":510.81,"body":"and we don't need to show proof and"},{"startTime":510.81,"endTime":513.46,"body":"we don't need to bring it  up and down"},{"startTime":510.81,"endTime":513.46,"body":"the chain or whatever and, and convince"},{"startTime":513.46,"endTime":514.99,"body":"everyone's managers, manager or whatever."},{"startTime":515.14,"endTime":516.31,"body":"I just made the decision."},{"startTime":516.46,"endTime":517.03,"body":"Yeah, that's true."},{"startTime":517.03,"endTime":519.85,"body":"I mean, they are a manager first"},{"startTime":517.03,"endTime":519.85,"body":"and foremost, so they're gonna"},{"startTime":519.85,"endTime":523.57,"body":"make a decision and maybe the team"},{"startTime":519.85,"endTime":523.57,"body":"agrees with it and maybe they don't."},{"startTime":523.72,"endTime":527.58,"body":"Yeah, but, but we don't, the point is"},{"startTime":523.72,"endTime":527.58,"body":"the, the time that we save if, if you're"},{"startTime":527.58,"endTime":531.23,"body":"putting money to the time that we save,"},{"startTime":527.58,"endTime":531.23,"body":"I just saved us a bunch of money as a"},{"startTime":531.23,"endTime":535.38,"body":"manager yes, it will be a while till we"},{"startTime":531.23,"endTime":535.38,"body":"can see if my decision was a good one or"},{"startTime":535.38,"endTime":539.43,"body":"not, and there are many factors outside"},{"startTime":535.38,"endTime":539.43,"body":"of did Brian make a good decision or"},{"startTime":539.43,"endTime":544.96,"body":"not, that, that can be considered, but"},{"startTime":539.43,"endTime":544.96,"body":"speed to decision is, I feel it lends"},{"startTime":544.96,"endTime":546.48,"body":"itself to the argument he's making."},{"startTime":546.63,"endTime":547.65,"body":"No doubt, no doubt."},{"startTime":547.65,"endTime":550.37,"body":"But are those decisions"},{"startTime":547.65,"endTime":550.37,"body":"sound and appropriate?"},{"startTime":550.48,"endTime":551.28,"body":"That's really the question."},{"startTime":551.42,"endTime":555.08,"body":"I mean, it depends on  if you're, if"},{"startTime":551.42,"endTime":555.08,"body":"your firm is owned by private equity"},{"startTime":555.08,"endTime":558.83,"body":"and  it's  nobody's gotten raises in"},{"startTime":555.08,"endTime":558.83,"body":"five years and they're trying to squeeze"},{"startTime":558.83,"endTime":562.84,"body":"every dime out of your organization,"},{"startTime":558.83,"endTime":562.84,"body":"like the cost cutting measure of  not"},{"startTime":562.84,"endTime":566.85,"body":"hiring employees in any way, shape or"},{"startTime":562.84,"endTime":566.85,"body":"form until people start quitting and"},{"startTime":566.9,"endTime":572.37,"body":"you know, like I've been, listen, I can"},{"startTime":566.9,"endTime":572.37,"body":"only talk trash because I've worked at"},{"startTime":572.37,"endTime":575.88,"body":"those firms before I worked at a firm"},{"startTime":572.37,"endTime":575.88,"body":"before that they, they refused to hire"},{"startTime":575.88,"endTime":578.46,"body":"product owners for their scrum teams."},{"startTime":578.61,"endTime":581.38,"body":"They would point at managers in"},{"startTime":578.61,"endTime":581.38,"body":"the organization and be  You,"},{"startTime":581.4,"endTime":585.74,"body":"manager, you look like you aren't"},{"startTime":581.4,"endTime":585.74,"body":"working much over 50, 60 hours."},{"startTime":585.93,"endTime":587.42,"body":"You need another responsibility."},{"startTime":587.57,"endTime":590.68,"body":"You're now also a product owner"},{"startTime":587.57,"endTime":590.68,"body":"for this team, or whatever."},{"startTime":590.68,"endTime":594.29,"body":"You make the calls for product for"},{"startTime":590.68,"endTime":594.29,"body":"the That's a, that's real, you know."},{"startTime":594.34,"endTime":595.15,"body":"Oh yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":595.3,"endTime":595.78,"body":"I've seen that."},{"startTime":595.93,"endTime":599.72,"body":"You know, again, I mean, I could"},{"startTime":595.93,"endTime":599.72,"body":"go back to the effectiveness"},{"startTime":599.72,"endTime":601.31,"body":"of doing it that way, right?"},{"startTime":601.46,"endTime":603.02,"body":"Same thing with this, the effectiveness."},{"startTime":603.02,"endTime":607.06,"body":"if I'm on Ryan Ripley's side right"},{"startTime":603.02,"endTime":607.06,"body":"here, I would say effectiveness is"},{"startTime":607.07,"endTime":610.74,"body":"not, much like we talked about software"},{"startTime":607.07,"endTime":610.74,"body":"development and producing products"},{"startTime":610.74,"endTime":614.45,"body":"for the government space effectiveness"},{"startTime":610.74,"endTime":614.45,"body":"might not be their number one concern."},{"startTime":614.65,"endTime":615.15,"body":"This is true."},{"startTime":615.16,"endTime":617.81,"body":"You know, just, just like compliance"},{"startTime":615.16,"endTime":617.81,"body":"organizations, regulatory,"},{"startTime":617.81,"endTime":618.45,"body":"that's what I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":618.6,"endTime":621.18,"body":"Regulatory is their number"},{"startTime":618.6,"endTime":621.18,"body":"one concern in the business."},{"startTime":621.2,"endTime":622.97,"body":"They don't care that they"},{"startTime":621.2,"endTime":622.97,"body":"have to spend more money."},{"startTime":623.03,"endTime":623.38,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":623.46,"endTime":627.51,"body":"If they can do it in a way where they"},{"startTime":623.46,"endTime":627.51,"body":"get all their regulatory objectives"},{"startTime":627.66,"endTime":631.44,"body":"all those boxes ticked at the same time"},{"startTime":627.66,"endTime":631.44,"body":"while getting their software delivered."},{"startTime":631.57,"endTime":633.12,"body":"And they're okay with delays."},{"startTime":633.19,"endTime":634.96,"body":"They're okay with"},{"startTime":633.19,"endTime":634.96,"body":"constantly shifting dates."},{"startTime":635.26,"endTime":637.39,"body":"You know, there are things that"},{"startTime":635.26,"endTime":637.39,"body":"are more important to them."},{"startTime":637.47,"endTime":639.87,"body":"And maybe this is one of them, you know?"},{"startTime":640.02,"endTime":644.03,"body":"Yeah, I mean, look, definitely saving"},{"startTime":640.02,"endTime":644.03,"body":"money on a Scrum Master's role."},{"startTime":644.18,"endTime":645.47,"body":"Immediately adds to the bottom line."},{"startTime":645.54,"endTime":646.98,"body":"Sure, yeah, looking good on paper."},{"startTime":647.28,"endTime":652.52,"body":"Some of the chatter about this article"},{"startTime":647.28,"endTime":652.52,"body":"was about all of the reductions in force,"},{"startTime":652.52,"endTime":655.85,"body":"and all of the scrum masters and what"},{"startTime":652.52,"endTime":655.85,"body":"not getting laid off, and agile coaches,"},{"startTime":655.85,"endTime":659.01,"body":"scrum masters, and you know, some of"},{"startTime":655.85,"endTime":659.01,"body":"that is  people see articles like that."},{"startTime":659.16,"endTime":664.36,"body":"In a vacuum and they they they gloss over"},{"startTime":659.16,"endTime":664.36,"body":"the fact that like these were just badly"},{"startTime":664.36,"endTime":668.3,"body":"run companies That they needed to look"},{"startTime":664.36,"endTime":668.3,"body":"good on their bottom line for the quarter"},{"startTime":668.3,"endTime":672.28,"body":"So they ran out and they fired 5 percent"},{"startTime":668.3,"endTime":672.28,"body":"of their staff Which made their numbers"},{"startTime":672.28,"endTime":676.42,"body":"for the quarter look pretty close to what"},{"startTime":672.28,"endTime":676.42,"body":"they wanted them to be and then they spend"},{"startTime":676.42,"endTime":681.5,"body":"the next Two years trying to ramp back"},{"startTime":676.42,"endTime":681.5,"body":"up I mean to get over the brain drain."},{"startTime":681.55,"endTime":686.12,"body":"Mm hmm that you know whatever Or or"},{"startTime":681.55,"endTime":686.12,"body":"or they continually downslides that"},{"startTime":686.27,"endTime":690.01,"body":"you know, so like I can't remember the"},{"startTime":686.27,"endTime":690.01,"body":"company So that next quarter they'll run"},{"startTime":690.01,"endTime":694.21,"body":"out and hire and fire ten more percent"},{"startTime":690.01,"endTime":694.21,"body":"and then you'll see articles like Oh"},{"startTime":694.26,"endTime":700.37,"body":"whatever company reduced You know, further"},{"startTime":694.26,"endTime":700.37,"body":"reduce their Agile, whatever by 10 more"},{"startTime":700.37,"endTime":704.21,"body":"percent or 17 percent of the company"},{"startTime":700.37,"endTime":704.21,"body":"I mean, it's, it's pretty easy to make"},{"startTime":704.25,"endTime":705.68,"body":"the numbers look good in that case."},{"startTime":705.99,"endTime":709.24,"body":"And then chances are those execs probably"},{"startTime":705.99,"endTime":709.24,"body":"aren't going to be around in two years."},{"startTime":709.24,"endTime":710.72,"body":"They're going to take"},{"startTime":709.24,"endTime":710.72,"body":"their bonuses and leave."},{"startTime":710.74,"endTime":711.405,"body":"No, they're probably not."},{"startTime":711.555,"endTime":716.335,"body":"Listen, I mean, you don't need an"},{"startTime":711.555,"endTime":716.335,"body":"MBA degree to understand that if"},{"startTime":716.335,"endTime":719.445,"body":"you can fire 20 percent of your"},{"startTime":716.335,"endTime":719.445,"body":"company and pull in more money."},{"startTime":719.595,"endTime":722.475,"body":"And all the people are picking up"},{"startTime":719.595,"endTime":722.475,"body":"the work for the other people that"},{"startTime":722.585,"endTime":726.45,"body":"you got rid of yeah your MBA teacher"},{"startTime":722.585,"endTime":726.45,"body":"would tell you  hey, I have empathy"},{"startTime":726.45,"endTime":729.42,"body":"and everything, but you know, those"},{"startTime":726.45,"endTime":729.42,"body":"yachts are not going to buy themselves."},{"startTime":729.43,"endTime":731.13,"body":"That's right, that's exactly right."},{"startTime":731.41,"endTime":732.17,"body":"So, I, I."},{"startTime":732.32,"endTime":735.58,"body":"I'm going to extrapolate just a"},{"startTime":732.32,"endTime":735.58,"body":"little here, taking his side, too."},{"startTime":735.73,"endTime":739.95,"body":"Companies that go down this path"},{"startTime":735.73,"endTime":739.95,"body":"of empowering delivery managers to"},{"startTime":739.95,"endTime":743.16,"body":"be scrum masters and not hire scrum"},{"startTime":739.95,"endTime":743.16,"body":"masters, presumably they will lay"},{"startTime":743.16,"endTime":744.13,"body":"off scrum masters, they already are?"},{"startTime":744.28,"endTime":744.59,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":744.74,"endTime":745.58,"body":"Will they stop there?"},{"startTime":745.63,"endTime":747.7,"body":"Or will they say, okay, next level, right?"},{"startTime":747.85,"endTime":749.81,"body":"Developers are doing testing"},{"startTime":747.85,"endTime":749.81,"body":"now, we don't need testers."},{"startTime":749.96,"endTime":750.67,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":750.82,"endTime":754.75,"body":"Like this, this, this slope,"},{"startTime":750.82,"endTime":754.75,"body":"just  just slides into oblivion."},{"startTime":754.8,"endTime":755.4,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":755.4,"endTime":758.39,"body":"Why don't your managers just, why"},{"startTime":755.4,"endTime":758.39,"body":"don't your managers also serve as"},{"startTime":758.67,"endTime":761.19,"body":"development architects and tech leads?"},{"startTime":761.34,"endTime":764.15,"body":"I mean, AWS certifications have a cost."},{"startTime":764.15,"endTime":767.795,"body":"Why not send all of your,"},{"startTime":764.15,"endTime":767.795,"body":"Managers through AWS uh, like,"},{"startTime":767.825,"endTime":769.175,"body":"oh, Brian, you sound ludicrous."},{"startTime":769.175,"endTime":770.195,"body":"Now do I?"},{"startTime":770.345,"endTime":770.735,"body":"No."},{"startTime":770.925,"endTime":772.335,"body":"It depends on what your priorities are."},{"startTime":772.515,"endTime":775.005,"body":"I think at the end of the day, if"},{"startTime":772.515,"endTime":775.005,"body":"your priorities are to save money,"},{"startTime":775.005,"endTime":776.685,"body":"there are ways to do that, right?"},{"startTime":776.865,"endTime":777.855,"body":"I mean, that's what we're saying."},{"startTime":778.005,"endTime":778.275,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":778.465,"endTime":780.245,"body":"Anyway, he says who better to accomplish."},{"startTime":780.43,"endTime":782.75,"body":"These goals and the"},{"startTime":780.43,"endTime":782.75,"body":"manager of the team, right?"},{"startTime":782.81,"endTime":786.17,"body":"I don't think we ever did the podcast,"},{"startTime":782.81,"endTime":786.17,"body":"but I had a podcast idea that was  does"},{"startTime":786.18,"endTime":792.52,"body":"one manager or member of leadership"},{"startTime":786.18,"endTime":792.52,"body":"basically who comes to your daily"},{"startTime":792.64,"endTime":794.48,"body":"standups or whatever, retros or whatever?"},{"startTime":794.63,"endTime":796.92,"body":"Can one person undermine?"},{"startTime":797.07,"endTime":800.76,"body":"All of the transparency, openness,"},{"startTime":797.07,"endTime":800.76,"body":"all of it just dropping, just"},{"startTime":800.77,"endTime":802.25,"body":"parachuting in that one person."},{"startTime":802.4,"endTime":803.09,"body":"Because I've seen it."},{"startTime":803.09,"endTime":807.03,"body":"I've seen just one single person showing"},{"startTime":803.09,"endTime":807.03,"body":"up and now suddenly everyone's quiet."},{"startTime":807.03,"endTime":807.37,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":807.64,"endTime":809.25,"body":"I mean, it just takes one."},{"startTime":809.35,"endTime":813.33,"body":"It just takes one, which is so wild"},{"startTime":809.35,"endTime":813.33,"body":"you know, to kind of sync with this."},{"startTime":813.67,"endTime":815.55,"body":"So especially when it comes to the retro."},{"startTime":815.6,"endTime":818.2,"body":"You know, anyway, so let's"},{"startTime":815.6,"endTime":818.2,"body":"try to finish out the article."},{"startTime":818.35,"endTime":820.99,"body":"Reality role conflicts will happen"},{"startTime":818.35,"endTime":820.99,"body":"if a manager or director takes on"},{"startTime":820.99,"endTime":822.27,"body":"the scrum master accountability."},{"startTime":822.27,"endTime":824.34,"body":"So he says the role conflict may happen."},{"startTime":824.49,"endTime":827.49,"body":"Unfortunately, we see many of these"},{"startTime":824.49,"endTime":827.49,"body":"issues in scrum masters today."},{"startTime":827.54,"endTime":828.915,"body":"Oh, so he says that."},{"startTime":829.065,"endTime":832.685,"body":"Yes, it may happen, but also we see"},{"startTime":829.065,"endTime":832.685,"body":"it happening with scrum masters right"},{"startTime":832.685,"endTime":836.725,"body":"now, which is probably right, because"},{"startTime":832.685,"endTime":836.725,"body":"it's the very same sort of people that"},{"startTime":836.725,"endTime":840.325,"body":"train people for two days and say,"},{"startTime":836.725,"endTime":840.325,"body":"You're now an ordained scrum master"},{"startTime":840.405,"endTime":842.005,"body":"certificate carrying scrum master."},{"startTime":842.085,"endTime":842.655,"body":"I could see that."},{"startTime":842.655,"endTime":846.615,"body":"So somebody who doesn't have a lot of"},{"startTime":842.655,"endTime":846.615,"body":"expertise about the work coming in and now"},{"startTime":846.615,"endTime":848.795,"body":"they're treated as a what was it called?"},{"startTime":848.795,"endTime":850.355,"body":"A proxy of management."},{"startTime":850.365,"endTime":851.295,"body":"So they're not trusted."},{"startTime":851.305,"endTime":852.035,"body":"I could see that."},{"startTime":852.185,"endTime":852.795,"body":"I can see that."},{"startTime":852.945,"endTime":857.305,"body":"buT I'm, I'm probably the worst"},{"startTime":852.945,"endTime":857.305,"body":"person to dispute or discuss that item"},{"startTime":857.305,"endTime":861.345,"body":"because I'm not sure how people could"},{"startTime":857.305,"endTime":861.345,"body":"ever do the Scrum Master job without."},{"startTime":861.495,"endTime":864.135,"body":"Like a wealth of expertise and"},{"startTime":861.495,"endTime":864.135,"body":"even if you're  well, they don't"},{"startTime":864.135,"endTime":865.215,"body":"need expertise in development."},{"startTime":865.475,"endTime":869.275,"body":"Okay, well, then they need a wealth of"},{"startTime":865.475,"endTime":869.275,"body":"expertise in interpersonal communication"},{"startTime":869.495,"endTime":871.235,"body":"facilitation and all the guys regardless."},{"startTime":871.235,"endTime":873.565,"body":"They're coming  okay, well, they"},{"startTime":871.235,"endTime":873.565,"body":"don't have the developer skill set."},{"startTime":873.575,"endTime":875.455,"body":"They don't have developers"},{"startTime":873.575,"endTime":875.455,"body":"experience and skill set."},{"startTime":875.605,"endTime":879.405,"body":"Those that can pick up to the extent they"},{"startTime":875.605,"endTime":879.405,"body":"need, they don't have to develop, right?"},{"startTime":879.555,"endTime":882.245,"body":"But those soft skills,"},{"startTime":879.555,"endTime":882.245,"body":"how do you learn those?"},{"startTime":882.395,"endTime":883.065,"body":"You don't go to class."},{"startTime":883.085,"endTime":884.955,"body":"I mean, you don't get them through"},{"startTime":883.085,"endTime":884.955,"body":"your, I was going to say, you"},{"startTime":885.105,"endTime":886.065,"body":"don't get them through your MBA."},{"startTime":886.125,"endTime":886.685,"body":"Like I said."},{"startTime":886.945,"endTime":887.235,"body":"You don't."},{"startTime":887.385,"endTime":887.875,"body":"This is true."},{"startTime":888.025,"endTime":888.355,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":888.375,"endTime":889.285,"body":"They're not teaching you that."},{"startTime":889.315,"endTime":892.055,"body":"So manager who fills the scrum"},{"startTime":889.315,"endTime":892.055,"body":"accountabilities will have a strong"},{"startTime":892.085,"endTime":894.895,"body":"understanding of alignment with"},{"startTime":892.085,"endTime":894.895,"body":"the organization's strategic goal"},{"startTime":895.105,"endTime":897.065,"body":"and can help teams stay aligned."},{"startTime":897.215,"endTime":900.245,"body":"lEt me, let me highlight that sentence"},{"startTime":897.215,"endTime":900.245,"body":"for a second because again, I'm going"},{"startTime":900.245,"endTime":905.255,"body":"back to my product management role on the"},{"startTime":900.245,"endTime":905.255,"body":"podcast of saying I find it very difficult"},{"startTime":905.275,"endTime":909.495,"body":"to align the other product managers and"},{"startTime":905.275,"endTime":909.495,"body":"the leaders in the organization, like"},{"startTime":909.495,"endTime":912.825,"body":"the people running the organization"},{"startTime":909.495,"endTime":912.825,"body":"with the organization's strategic goals."},{"startTime":912.975,"endTime":914.635,"body":"I'm not disputing what he's saying here."},{"startTime":914.695,"endTime":918.63,"body":"Your middle managers should be"},{"startTime":914.695,"endTime":918.63,"body":"aligned and should understand your"},{"startTime":918.63,"endTime":920.04,"body":"organization's strategic goals."},{"startTime":920.19,"endTime":925.94,"body":"The part of this I dispute is Go, go,"},{"startTime":920.19,"endTime":925.94,"body":"go show me the list of all the work"},{"startTime":925.94,"endTime":927.28,"body":"items that your team is working on."},{"startTime":927.43,"endTime":929.5,"body":"And the, and what they roll up to."},{"startTime":929.5,"endTime":932.06,"body":"So I'm probably asking for"},{"startTime":929.5,"endTime":932.06,"body":"epics and stories, right?"},{"startTime":932.21,"endTime":937.02,"body":"Now go show me what strategies and"},{"startTime":932.21,"endTime":937.02,"body":"goals your leadership is working on."},{"startTime":937.1,"endTime":939.77,"body":"And I mean specific"},{"startTime":937.1,"endTime":939.77,"body":"people and specific teams."},{"startTime":940.1,"endTime":941.68,"body":"And show me how it breaks down."},{"startTime":941.93,"endTime":944.74,"body":"And I will guarantee you, most"},{"startTime":941.93,"endTime":944.74,"body":"people do not write that down."},{"startTime":944.89,"endTime":950.38,"body":"Most, strategy, in a lot of"},{"startTime":944.89,"endTime":950.38,"body":"companies, is implied, not written."},{"startTime":950.53,"endTime":953.41,"body":"So, if you want to solve this"},{"startTime":950.53,"endTime":953.41,"body":"statement, you've got to solve a"},{"startTime":953.41,"endTime":956.89,"body":"problem that's usually at an executive"},{"startTime":953.41,"endTime":956.89,"body":"level, not at a middle manager level."},{"startTime":957.04,"endTime":959.39,"body":"Most middle managers, have incentives."},{"startTime":959.54,"endTime":960.1,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":960.35,"endTime":962.77,"body":"And they are running their departments,"},{"startTime":960.35,"endTime":962.77,"body":"their groups, their teams, or"},{"startTime":962.77,"endTime":964.19,"body":"whatever, based on their incentives."},{"startTime":964.19,"endTime":967.96,"body":"And, and their incentives have a little"},{"startTime":964.19,"endTime":967.96,"body":"circle drawn around them in an org chart."},{"startTime":968.16,"endTime":970.65,"body":"And that's a huge point of dysfunction."},{"startTime":970.65,"endTime":975.28,"body":"So, I, I doubt very much that, I'm"},{"startTime":970.65,"endTime":975.28,"body":"not saying that this undermines his"},{"startTime":975.28,"endTime":979.89,"body":"entire Example, I'm just saying this"},{"startTime":975.28,"endTime":979.89,"body":"specifically, this is not where I"},{"startTime":979.89,"endTime":983.3,"body":"would want to plant my flag if I"},{"startTime":979.89,"endTime":983.3,"body":"were making this case of your manager"},{"startTime":983.3,"endTime":987.89,"body":"should be because   I would almost feel"},{"startTime":983.3,"endTime":987.89,"body":"better deploying a scrum master who"},{"startTime":987.89,"endTime":992.26,"body":"can move independently of department"},{"startTime":987.89,"endTime":992.26,"body":"manager, incentive structure, etc."},{"startTime":992.41,"endTime":995.5,"body":"To say, Can you go into my"},{"startTime":992.41,"endTime":995.5,"body":"organization and vet out?"},{"startTime":995.65,"endTime":999.43,"body":"What the strategies are that people"},{"startTime":995.65,"endTime":999.43,"body":"think that we're engaged in and try"},{"startTime":999.43,"endTime":1001.39,"body":"to find out climb as high as you can."},{"startTime":1001.54,"endTime":1003.99,"body":"Because of your communication skill"},{"startTime":1001.54,"endTime":1003.99,"body":"and whatnot, you should be able to"},{"startTime":1003.99,"endTime":1007.62,"body":"climb as high as possible to figure out"},{"startTime":1003.99,"endTime":1007.62,"body":"exactly what we should be doing to find"},{"startTime":1007.62,"endTime":1008.88,"body":"out if we're aligned with it or not."},{"startTime":1009.09,"endTime":1010.3,"body":"Go help us figure this out."},{"startTime":1010.45,"endTime":1011.9,"body":"You got the interpersonal skills."},{"startTime":1012.05,"endTime":1012.54,"body":"Help us out."},{"startTime":1012.69,"endTime":1012.91,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1012.91,"endTime":1016.88,"body":"So this paragraph says a manager who"},{"startTime":1012.91,"endTime":1016.88,"body":"fulfills the Scrum Master accountability."},{"startTime":1017.03,"endTime":1020.09,"body":"Would be more likely, I"},{"startTime":1017.03,"endTime":1020.09,"body":"guess to be aligned with the"},{"startTime":1020.09,"endTime":1021.34,"body":"organization's strategic goal."},{"startTime":1021.52,"endTime":1022.65,"body":"Why not the scrummasters?"},{"startTime":1022.8,"endTime":1025.32,"body":"Without even making the"},{"startTime":1022.8,"endTime":1025.32,"body":"managers a scrummaster."},{"startTime":1025.44,"endTime":1025.68,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1025.74,"endTime":1028.0,"body":"Why can't the scrummasters"},{"startTime":1025.74,"endTime":1028.0,"body":"be aligned, right?"},{"startTime":1028.0,"endTime":1028.57,"body":"They should be."},{"startTime":1028.61,"endTime":1029.55,"body":"They should understand."},{"startTime":1029.7,"endTime":1032.15,"body":"The work of the team and what"},{"startTime":1029.7,"endTime":1032.15,"body":"it's rolling up to, to your point."},{"startTime":1032.3,"endTime":1033.49,"body":"Why are we doing this?"},{"startTime":1033.49,"endTime":1037.61,"body":"If they don't understand that, then the"},{"startTime":1033.49,"endTime":1037.61,"body":"scrum masters are weak to begin with."},{"startTime":1037.73,"endTime":1041.92,"body":"I mean I would expect a scrum"},{"startTime":1037.73,"endTime":1041.92,"body":"master to sniff that out very"},{"startTime":1041.92,"endTime":1042.99,"body":"quickly in the organization."},{"startTime":1042.99,"endTime":1046.31,"body":"To say, hey, it doesn't seem like"},{"startTime":1042.99,"endTime":1046.31,"body":"we have Organizational strategy"},{"startTime":1046.31,"endTime":1049.63,"body":"or goals that we're all punched"},{"startTime":1046.31,"endTime":1049.63,"body":"out these features, quote, getting"},{"startTime":1049.63,"endTime":1050.99,"body":"to done as fast as possible."},{"startTime":1051.14,"endTime":1053.45,"body":"And it seems like all of our"},{"startTime":1051.14,"endTime":1053.45,"body":"teams are on different pages."},{"startTime":1053.45,"endTime":1058.09,"body":"some teams are implementing the same thing"},{"startTime":1053.45,"endTime":1058.09,"body":"that we're we did a couple of months ago."},{"startTime":1058.32,"endTime":1061.26,"body":"You know, instead of lifting"},{"startTime":1058.32,"endTime":1061.26,"body":"stuff from our projects,"},{"startTime":1061.41,"endTime":1062.44,"body":"they're doing it on their own."},{"startTime":1062.44,"endTime":1062.91,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1063.08,"endTime":1065.0,"body":"Like I they would see this stuff."},{"startTime":1065.0,"endTime":1068.66,"body":"Whereas maybe a manager, again, with"},{"startTime":1065.0,"endTime":1068.66,"body":"that incentive structure being so"},{"startTime":1068.66,"endTime":1070.7,"body":"close and everything can't back away."},{"startTime":1071.005,"endTime":1072.505,"body":"You know, and take that view."},{"startTime":1072.705,"endTime":1075.495,"body":"I mean, if you think about like a"},{"startTime":1072.705,"endTime":1075.495,"body":"scrum master community practice, even"},{"startTime":1075.495,"endTime":1077.935,"body":"if there's like two or three scrum"},{"startTime":1075.495,"endTime":1077.935,"body":"masters organization wide, right?"},{"startTime":1078.085,"endTime":1081.715,"body":"Like a big, a larger medium sized"},{"startTime":1078.085,"endTime":1081.715,"body":"business is what I'm thinking about."},{"startTime":1081.865,"endTime":1084.595,"body":"The scrum masters can get together"},{"startTime":1081.865,"endTime":1084.595,"body":"and say, Oh, we're going to bring the"},{"startTime":1084.595,"endTime":1087.625,"body":"director product, or we're going to bring"},{"startTime":1084.595,"endTime":1087.625,"body":"the VPO, whatever, or the VP of sales."},{"startTime":1087.625,"endTime":1088.61,"body":"We're going to bring them to our."},{"startTime":1088.94,"endTime":1093.4,"body":"community of practice every month,"},{"startTime":1088.94,"endTime":1093.4,"body":"whatever, and say, Oh how, how is"},{"startTime":1093.4,"endTime":1094.66,"body":"this work from your perspective?"},{"startTime":1094.66,"endTime":1097.4,"body":"And they can start really"},{"startTime":1094.66,"endTime":1097.4,"body":"breaking down the organization."},{"startTime":1097.5,"endTime":1099.84,"body":"I mean, you're, you're arguing"},{"startTime":1097.5,"endTime":1099.84,"body":"point back here is  well,"},{"startTime":1099.84,"endTime":1100.92,"body":"the managers can do that too."},{"startTime":1101.07,"endTime":1103.4,"body":"And they're better aligned to do"},{"startTime":1101.07,"endTime":1103.4,"body":"that because they can throw their"},{"startTime":1103.4,"endTime":1106.09,"body":"weight around to be  Oh, you got"},{"startTime":1103.4,"endTime":1106.09,"body":"to show up to my meeting because"},{"startTime":1106.09,"endTime":1107.68,"body":"I'm, I'm, that's certainly true."},{"startTime":1107.68,"endTime":1110.96,"body":"It's what They're referring to as"},{"startTime":1107.68,"endTime":1110.96,"body":"positional authority, but I think"},{"startTime":1111.11,"endTime":1112.95,"body":"yes, the managers can do that, right?"},{"startTime":1113.07,"endTime":1116.85,"body":"There's no doubt but to your point about"},{"startTime":1113.07,"endTime":1116.85,"body":"that's that circle that's around them."},{"startTime":1117.0,"endTime":1121.3,"body":"So they're only working within that"},{"startTime":1117.0,"endTime":1121.3,"body":"circle Yeah, and ultimately that harms"},{"startTime":1121.3,"endTime":1123.57,"body":"the organization But it benefits them."},{"startTime":1123.72,"endTime":1126.91,"body":"Scrum masters to your point if"},{"startTime":1123.72,"endTime":1126.91,"body":"they're freed up they're not reporting"},{"startTime":1127.06,"endTime":1130.13,"body":"through one of these managers Yeah,"},{"startTime":1127.06,"endTime":1130.13,"body":"that that's gonna be much better."},{"startTime":1130.28,"endTime":1134.62,"body":"I feel yeah Yeah, maybe maybe I was"},{"startTime":1130.28,"endTime":1134.62,"body":"gonna say maybe harms the organization"},{"startTime":1134.62,"endTime":1137.72,"body":"because I've also worked for a lot"},{"startTime":1134.62,"endTime":1137.72,"body":"of managers that they're they're just"},{"startTime":1137.95,"endTime":1141.64,"body":"They're not gonna ruffle feathers So"},{"startTime":1137.95,"endTime":1141.64,"body":"they would never do anything like that."},{"startTime":1141.65,"endTime":1145.74,"body":"They would never say Oh get it get a"},{"startTime":1141.65,"endTime":1145.74,"body":"meeting get with sales to find out What"},{"startTime":1145.74,"endTime":1148.79,"body":"they do with positioning hate Brian,"},{"startTime":1145.74,"endTime":1148.79,"body":"why are you bothering sales with that?"},{"startTime":1148.8,"endTime":1149.23,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1149.27,"endTime":1150.76,"body":"Why, why, positioning is their job."},{"startTime":1150.95,"endTime":1151.939,"body":"What are you, what are you trying to do?"},{"startTime":1151.949,"endTime":1153.349,"body":"You trying to do positioning with product?"},{"startTime":1153.499,"endTime":1156.599,"body":"That would be a real conversation"},{"startTime":1153.499,"endTime":1156.599,"body":"with a real manager from Brian's"},{"startTime":1156.679,"endTime":1158.209,"body":"real life in product management."},{"startTime":1158.229,"endTime":1161.929,"body":"These are the turf wars you play when you,"},{"startTime":1158.229,"endTime":1161.929,"body":"when you're when you, when politics is"},{"startTime":1162.079,"endTime":1164.029,"body":"part of your full time job responsibility."},{"startTime":1164.179,"endTime":1167.579,"body":"Yeah, which is more likely to be"},{"startTime":1164.179,"endTime":1167.579,"body":"the case with the delivery managers"},{"startTime":1167.579,"endTime":1168.839,"body":"than scrum masters, I would think."},{"startTime":1168.989,"endTime":1169.299,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1169.449,"endTime":1169.669,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1169.689,"endTime":1170.579,"body":"Back to the article."},{"startTime":1170.659,"endTime":1174.649,"body":"The influence that a manager or director"},{"startTime":1170.659,"endTime":1174.649,"body":"title brings makes the decisions and"},{"startTime":1174.659,"endTime":1177.829,"body":"organizational changes needed for"},{"startTime":1174.659,"endTime":1177.829,"body":"a scrum team to flourish Much more"},{"startTime":1177.829,"endTime":1182.109,"body":"straightforward to execute Thanks to a"},{"startTime":1177.829,"endTime":1182.109,"body":"manager's influence and authority In uh,"},{"startTime":1182.109,"endTime":1185.379,"body":"organization, I have to say authoritah,"},{"startTime":1182.109,"endTime":1185.379,"body":"that can only pronounce it like Cartman."},{"startTime":1185.429,"endTime":1185.909,"body":"I don't know why."},{"startTime":1185.909,"endTime":1187.109,"body":"It's a personal failing of my own."},{"startTime":1187.149,"endTime":1188.249,"body":"I'm sorry for everyone."},{"startTime":1188.399,"endTime":1188.749,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":1188.769,"endTime":1189.149,"body":"Good night."},{"startTime":1189.419,"endTime":1193.969,"body":"Thanks to a manager's influence and"},{"startTime":1189.419,"endTime":1193.969,"body":"authoritah in an organization, teams"},{"startTime":1193.979,"endTime":1196.789,"body":"did not have to wait for decisions"},{"startTime":1193.979,"endTime":1196.789,"body":"or impediments to be removed."},{"startTime":1196.989,"endTime":1201.309,"body":"If you've ever worked in a large"},{"startTime":1196.989,"endTime":1201.309,"body":"company, and I mean hundreds of"},{"startTime":1201.309,"endTime":1205.089,"body":"thousands of employees large large"},{"startTime":1201.309,"endTime":1205.089,"body":"company, you know this is not true."},{"startTime":1205.149,"endTime":1211.009,"body":"Like the, one director's ability to"},{"startTime":1205.149,"endTime":1211.009,"body":"remove impediments is quite limited."},{"startTime":1211.019,"endTime":1212.079,"body":"Zero, yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1212.089,"endTime":1212.779,"body":"Quite limited."},{"startTime":1213.059,"endTime":1216.929,"body":"I think some of this is true, if I'm"},{"startTime":1213.059,"endTime":1216.929,"body":"just trying to Play the other side."},{"startTime":1217.079,"endTime":1221.139,"body":"Maybe you can make decisions on"},{"startTime":1217.079,"endTime":1221.139,"body":"things, but not necessarily budget,"},{"startTime":1221.149,"endTime":1224.919,"body":"perhaps, because as a delivery"},{"startTime":1221.149,"endTime":1224.919,"body":"manager, if the team needs budget,"},{"startTime":1224.949,"endTime":1226.559,"body":"augmentation needs more money."},{"startTime":1226.709,"endTime":1228.219,"body":"Do you really have the power to do that?"},{"startTime":1228.369,"endTime":1228.809,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1228.909,"endTime":1230.659,"body":"Or do you just play with"},{"startTime":1228.909,"endTime":1230.659,"body":"the number you're given?"},{"startTime":1230.749,"endTime":1231.009,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1231.119,"endTime":1231.509,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1231.519,"endTime":1231.749,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1231.749,"endTime":1232.879,"body":"So, that's true."},{"startTime":1233.019,"endTime":1238.129,"body":"However, in some cases, they can make"},{"startTime":1233.019,"endTime":1238.129,"body":"lower level decisions, and you can say,"},{"startTime":1238.129,"endTime":1239.749,"body":"well, we got to these decisions quicker."},{"startTime":1239.909,"endTime":1243.149,"body":"I don't think that that's any quicker"},{"startTime":1239.909,"endTime":1243.149,"body":"than the teams making the decisions"},{"startTime":1243.149,"endTime":1246.239,"body":"for themselves notwithstanding"},{"startTime":1243.149,"endTime":1246.239,"body":"budget issues, et cetera, right,"},{"startTime":1246.319,"endTime":1247.749,"body":"which is a bigger issue anyway."},{"startTime":1247.949,"endTime":1250.589,"body":"I think of all the managers"},{"startTime":1247.949,"endTime":1250.589,"body":"I've ever worked with like that."},{"startTime":1250.589,"endTime":1254.719,"body":"They refuse to go back to the"},{"startTime":1250.589,"endTime":1254.719,"body":"organization to ask for more money."},{"startTime":1254.869,"endTime":1258.029,"body":"They just flat out refused and"},{"startTime":1254.869,"endTime":1258.029,"body":"project managers, the double,"},{"startTime":1258.029,"endTime":1261.469,"body":"triple, quadruple down on what"},{"startTime":1258.029,"endTime":1261.469,"body":"I've experienced with managers."},{"startTime":1261.469,"endTime":1266.449,"body":"Project managers will just be you would"},{"startTime":1261.469,"endTime":1266.449,"body":"expect them to go back to the customer"},{"startTime":1266.539,"endTime":1270.089,"body":"to leave it to the customer to say, hey,"},{"startTime":1266.539,"endTime":1270.089,"body":"listen, we came up on this discovery."},{"startTime":1270.239,"endTime":1271.019,"body":"It's up to you."},{"startTime":1271.219,"endTime":1274.779,"body":"You can pay a little more and do"},{"startTime":1271.219,"endTime":1274.779,"body":"X, Y, Z, or you just commit the"},{"startTime":1274.829,"endTime":1277.089,"body":"original X that we agreed on paper."},{"startTime":1277.289,"endTime":1278.949,"body":"And you know, this is"},{"startTime":1277.289,"endTime":1278.949,"body":"the timeline or whatever."},{"startTime":1278.949,"endTime":1280.329,"body":"But I just had some project managers."},{"startTime":1280.549,"endTime":1281.729,"body":"No, I won't do it."},{"startTime":1281.879,"endTime":1283.319,"body":", they don't wanna be confronting."},{"startTime":1283.469,"endTime":1283.679,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1283.679,"endTime":1284.999,"body":"They don't wanna be in that situation."},{"startTime":1284.999,"endTime":1286.229,"body":"Or, or they're uncomfortable."},{"startTime":1286.259,"endTime":1289.229,"body":"Or, or maybe, or maybe they've"},{"startTime":1286.259,"endTime":1289.229,"body":"gone back for funding again."},{"startTime":1289.229,"endTime":1293.409,"body":"'cause milestones dates, slip,"},{"startTime":1289.229,"endTime":1293.409,"body":"milestones slip, things change."},{"startTime":1293.559,"endTime":1295.989,"body":"Maybe they've gone back for"},{"startTime":1293.559,"endTime":1295.989,"body":"funding more than once and"},{"startTime":1295.994,"endTime":1296.924,"body":"they're just like office space."},{"startTime":1296.924,"endTime":1298.514,"body":"They've got yelled at"},{"startTime":1296.924,"endTime":1298.514,"body":"by their five bosses."},{"startTime":1298.844,"endTime":1301.184,"body":"You know, how come the original"},{"startTime":1298.844,"endTime":1301.184,"body":"estimates weren't right?"},{"startTime":1301.184,"endTime":1302.564,"body":"How come this, how come"},{"startTime":1301.184,"endTime":1302.564,"body":"that blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":1302.864,"endTime":1305.684,"body":"Or, or in the project manager's"},{"startTime":1302.864,"endTime":1305.684,"body":"case where they've had to."},{"startTime":1305.834,"endTime":1309.374,"body":"Cut entire teams or they're on a"},{"startTime":1305.834,"endTime":1309.374,"body":"second round of a project where they"},{"startTime":1309.404,"endTime":1312.024,"body":"you know, I had to go back for okay"},{"startTime":1309.404,"endTime":1312.024,"body":"We're gonna cancel the first round."},{"startTime":1312.024,"endTime":1312.624,"body":"We're gonna trash it."},{"startTime":1312.624,"endTime":1315.814,"body":"We're gonna go back and get another"},{"startTime":1312.624,"endTime":1315.814,"body":"team We're gonna change vendors because"},{"startTime":1316.014,"endTime":1317.634,"body":"you know, whatever Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1317.634,"endTime":1319.264,"body":"I could see the project"},{"startTime":1317.634,"endTime":1319.264,"body":"manager being timid"},{"startTime":1319.274,"endTime":1321.642,"body":"Let's see if we can get through the"},{"startTime":1319.274,"endTime":1321.642,"body":"rest of this evolution of agile scrum"},{"startTime":1321.642,"endTime":1324.882,"body":"practices and modern organizations"},{"startTime":1321.642,"endTime":1324.882,"body":"demands adaptability in our approaches."},{"startTime":1325.212,"endTime":1328.632,"body":"While traditional scrum masters can"},{"startTime":1325.212,"endTime":1328.632,"body":"offer value, integrating the scrum"},{"startTime":1328.632,"endTime":1331.782,"body":"master accountability with those in"},{"startTime":1328.632,"endTime":1331.782,"body":"management positions provides a promising"},{"startTime":1331.787,"endTime":1335.592,"body":"pathway to enhancing team dynamics,"},{"startTime":1331.787,"endTime":1335.592,"body":"accelerating delivery, and aligning"},{"startTime":1335.597,"endTime":1337.182,"body":"closely with organizational goals."},{"startTime":1337.392,"endTime":1339.282,"body":"I if you put maybe in front"},{"startTime":1337.392,"endTime":1339.282,"body":"of every one of those."},{"startTime":1339.342,"endTime":1339.762,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1339.762,"endTime":1341.772,"body":"I'd be, I'd be, it sounds very definitive."},{"startTime":1341.777,"endTime":1343.032,"body":"I'd be, I'd be nodding my head along."},{"startTime":1343.032,"endTime":1343.392,"body":"I'd be  yeah."},{"startTime":1343.542,"endTime":1346.392,"body":"Aligning square master accountabilities"},{"startTime":1343.542,"endTime":1346.392,"body":"with those in management positions."},{"startTime":1346.627,"endTime":1351.177,"body":"May, might, might provide a promising"},{"startTime":1346.627,"endTime":1351.177,"body":"pathway to enhancing team and it"},{"startTime":1351.177,"endTime":1355.037,"body":"might accelerate your delivery"},{"startTime":1351.177,"endTime":1355.037,"body":"and it might align your teams"},{"startTime":1355.067,"endTime":1356.187,"body":"with your organizational goals."},{"startTime":1356.337,"endTime":1359.737,"body":"I'm 100 percent on board with maybe in"},{"startTime":1356.337,"endTime":1359.737,"body":"every single one of those categories can"},{"startTime":1359.737,"endTime":1361.567,"body":"happen, but this is more definitive here."},{"startTime":1361.767,"endTime":1364.977,"body":"I liked that the last thing that he kind"},{"startTime":1361.767,"endTime":1364.977,"body":"of points out is, we got to think about"},{"startTime":1364.977,"endTime":1366.807,"body":"the role, think about how to change it."},{"startTime":1366.808,"endTime":1369.457,"body":"It requires careful"},{"startTime":1366.808,"endTime":1369.457,"body":"consideration, training."},{"startTime":1369.772,"endTime":1370.832,"body":"And a mindset shift."},{"startTime":1370.912,"endTime":1371.382,"body":"I  I like that."},{"startTime":1371.392,"endTime":1373.402,"body":"That's what the article"},{"startTime":1371.392,"endTime":1373.402,"body":"lands on and ends on."},{"startTime":1373.402,"endTime":1377.002,"body":"I honestly, I, I like this"},{"startTime":1373.402,"endTime":1377.002,"body":"hot, this is a good hot take."},{"startTime":1377.042,"endTime":1378.082,"body":"I like this hot take."},{"startTime":1378.232,"endTime":1379.472,"body":"I liked, I read all the comments."},{"startTime":1379.642,"endTime":1382.022,"body":"A lot of them do not like the article."},{"startTime":1382.172,"endTime":1383.602,"body":"Probably written by Scrum Masters."},{"startTime":1383.602,"endTime":1384.422,"body":"Just to throw that out there."},{"startTime":1384.582,"endTime":1389.422,"body":"the idea that it requires training and a"},{"startTime":1384.582,"endTime":1389.422,"body":"mindset shift at the end of the article."},{"startTime":1389.472,"endTime":1391.062,"body":"That's problematic for me."},{"startTime":1391.212,"endTime":1394.402,"body":"Well, train, the training"},{"startTime":1391.212,"endTime":1394.402,"body":"part you could address, right?"},{"startTime":1394.442,"endTime":1398.282,"body":"It's basically dollars spent"},{"startTime":1394.442,"endTime":1398.282,"body":"now with a promise to save a"},{"startTime":1398.292,"endTime":1399.612,"body":"lot of dollars in the future."},{"startTime":1399.672,"endTime":1404.162,"body":"That's the problematic part for me, is why"},{"startTime":1399.672,"endTime":1404.162,"body":"are these companies these companies could"},{"startTime":1404.172,"endTime":1406.132,"body":"be training their developers right now."},{"startTime":1406.282,"endTime":1408.382,"body":"Okay, I easily could take this article."},{"startTime":1408.532,"endTime":1409.412,"body":"Rip it apart."},{"startTime":1409.562,"endTime":1414.522,"body":"Find and replace manager with development"},{"startTime":1409.562,"endTime":1414.522,"body":"lead or senior developer on the team."},{"startTime":1414.622,"endTime":1414.982,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1415.242,"endTime":1417.122,"body":"Or whatever, senior tester"},{"startTime":1415.242,"endTime":1417.122,"body":"on the team or whatever."},{"startTime":1417.272,"endTime":1420.812,"body":"And I feel the article would"},{"startTime":1417.272,"endTime":1420.812,"body":"lose none of its buoyancy."},{"startTime":1421.012,"endTime":1423.862,"body":"My takeaway here is, the real"},{"startTime":1421.012,"endTime":1423.862,"body":"answer is probably not binary."},{"startTime":1423.862,"endTime":1425.482,"body":"It probably is like a mix, right?"},{"startTime":1425.632,"endTime":1428.462,"body":"Cause  why, why, why wouldn't I hire"},{"startTime":1425.632,"endTime":1428.462,"body":"somebody that I know that can do the job?"},{"startTime":1428.662,"endTime":1430.112,"body":"And they can just train all my people."},{"startTime":1430.132,"endTime":1431.372,"body":"They can just train all my managers."},{"startTime":1431.522,"endTime":1433.802,"body":"And that way you retain"},{"startTime":1431.522,"endTime":1433.802,"body":"that person within."},{"startTime":1433.842,"endTime":1434.382,"body":"Right, yeah."},{"startTime":1434.722,"endTime":1437.142,"body":"So it's that, that old you"},{"startTime":1434.722,"endTime":1437.142,"body":"know, hire versus buy, right?"},{"startTime":1437.292,"endTime":1440.812,"body":"You know, but I mean, if I think about"},{"startTime":1437.292,"endTime":1440.812,"body":"like a company with 10, 000 people like"},{"startTime":1440.812,"endTime":1444.202,"body":"a Spotify or whatever the head, whatever,"},{"startTime":1440.812,"endTime":1444.202,"body":"17, 000 people and they've like fired"},{"startTime":1444.202,"endTime":1446.582,"body":"seven, 7, 000 or whatever, whatever they"},{"startTime":1444.202,"endTime":1446.582,"body":"had, I don't remember what they had."},{"startTime":1446.732,"endTime":1450.202,"body":"Like they're not gonna train 10,"},{"startTime":1446.732,"endTime":1450.202,"body":"000 people even if the management"},{"startTime":1450.202,"endTime":1453.142,"body":"is 10 percent of that, they're not"},{"startTime":1450.202,"endTime":1453.142,"body":"going to train a thousand people."},{"startTime":1453.292,"endTime":1456.742,"body":"You know, at the cost of training a"},{"startTime":1453.292,"endTime":1456.742,"body":"thousand people, they'd be better off"},{"startTime":1456.742,"endTime":1458.202,"body":"just hiring scrum masters at that point."},{"startTime":1458.232,"endTime":1458.922,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1459.032,"endTime":1459.962,"body":"And keeping them on staff."},{"startTime":1460.112,"endTime":1463.032,"body":"So I'm, I'm confused as to the pitch here."},{"startTime":1463.042,"endTime":1465.082,"body":"Is it, we don't need"},{"startTime":1463.042,"endTime":1465.082,"body":"scrum masters anymore?"},{"startTime":1465.382,"endTime":1467.192,"body":"Which is weird coming from trainers."},{"startTime":1467.342,"endTime":1471.342,"body":"And we'll just train all your"},{"startTime":1467.342,"endTime":1471.342,"body":"managers is a higher more management"},{"startTime":1471.392,"endTime":1474.392,"body":"yeah, I guess the cynic in me says,"},{"startTime":1471.392,"endTime":1474.392,"body":"Of course, you're going to train"},{"startTime":1474.402,"endTime":1476.572,"body":"more people if you're a CST, right?"},{"startTime":1476.722,"endTime":1477.632,"body":"That's better for you."},{"startTime":1477.642,"endTime":1480.022,"body":"PST CST basically scrum trainers."},{"startTime":1480.042,"endTime":1480.252,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1480.402,"endTime":1481.802,"body":"So there is that side of it."},{"startTime":1481.822,"endTime":1484.932,"body":"But even though this is addressed"},{"startTime":1481.822,"endTime":1484.932,"body":"in the article, or at least raised a"},{"startTime":1484.932,"endTime":1488.422,"body":"couple of times, the fact that you need"},{"startTime":1484.932,"endTime":1488.422,"body":"to be careful, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":1488.632,"endTime":1492.072,"body":"I just don't see how you could"},{"startTime":1488.632,"endTime":1492.072,"body":"quickly change that mindset"},{"startTime":1492.072,"endTime":1493.182,"body":"shift that he's talking about."},{"startTime":1493.332,"endTime":1498.222,"body":"How do you empower all of your managers"},{"startTime":1493.332,"endTime":1498.222,"body":"with the soft skills they need to work"},{"startTime":1498.222,"endTime":1502.772,"body":"with your teams and, and create that"},{"startTime":1498.222,"endTime":1502.772,"body":"certain leadership attitude, right?"},{"startTime":1502.772,"endTime":1505.582,"body":"I don't understand that given the"},{"startTime":1502.772,"endTime":1505.582,"body":"fact that where they're coming from."},{"startTime":1505.732,"endTime":1509.462,"body":"Is command and control primarily"},{"startTime":1505.732,"endTime":1509.462,"body":"if you're delivery manager, that's"},{"startTime":1509.462,"endTime":1510.612,"body":"what you've done all the time."},{"startTime":1510.762,"endTime":1512.742,"body":"How do you, how do you pivot that?"},{"startTime":1512.892,"endTime":1514.472,"body":"That's going to take time."},{"startTime":1514.482,"endTime":1517.722,"body":"It's going to take dollars"},{"startTime":1514.482,"endTime":1517.722,"body":"to basically train everybody."},{"startTime":1517.722,"endTime":1521.042,"body":"So yeah, I understand the money"},{"startTime":1517.722,"endTime":1521.042,"body":"saving aspect, but I also think"},{"startTime":1521.042,"endTime":1521.952,"body":"you're going to spend money."},{"startTime":1522.102,"endTime":1523.012,"body":"Before you save money."},{"startTime":1523.162,"endTime":1527.192,"body":"the pros of having the roles"},{"startTime":1523.162,"endTime":1527.192,"body":"together, having your managers all"},{"startTime":1527.192,"endTime":1529.362,"body":"be scrum masters are cost cutting."},{"startTime":1529.512,"endTime":1531.792,"body":"Like you, you don't need to"},{"startTime":1529.512,"endTime":1531.792,"body":"pay for two roles now, right?"},{"startTime":1531.832,"endTime":1536.392,"body":"I mean, you're, you're already paying"},{"startTime":1531.832,"endTime":1536.392,"body":"your executives and your managers"},{"startTime":1536.472,"endTime":1540.632,"body":"you know, a healthy stipend with"},{"startTime":1536.472,"endTime":1540.632,"body":"bonuses and, and yachts all around"},{"startTime":1540.632,"endTime":1541.892,"body":"when they meet their objectives."},{"startTime":1542.042,"endTime":1544.162,"body":"And like we can't do"},{"startTime":1542.042,"endTime":1544.162,"body":"that for employees too."},{"startTime":1544.352,"endTime":1545.692,"body":"I mean, how would the"},{"startTime":1544.352,"endTime":1545.692,"body":"company ever make money?"},{"startTime":1545.862,"endTime":1549.562,"body":"And then and then the hope that"},{"startTime":1545.862,"endTime":1549.562,"body":"your middle managers are also"},{"startTime":1549.582,"endTime":1552.122,"body":"aligned with your businesses."},{"startTime":1552.272,"endTime":1556.082,"body":"In strategies, which again, like"},{"startTime":1552.272,"endTime":1556.082,"body":"let's pretend that they are for"},{"startTime":1556.082,"endTime":1558.212,"body":"a second, just for the purpose of"},{"startTime":1556.082,"endTime":1558.212,"body":"getting through this discussion."},{"startTime":1558.472,"endTime":1559.962,"body":"Those are the pros, right?"},{"startTime":1560.112,"endTime":1564.142,"body":"The, the cons here are but like"},{"startTime":1560.112,"endTime":1564.142,"body":"whatever the manager's full time"},{"startTime":1564.142,"endTime":1568.722,"body":"responsibility is, they're not managing"},{"startTime":1564.142,"endTime":1568.722,"body":"while they're doing the trade, while"},{"startTime":1568.722,"endTime":1572.352,"body":"they're executing the traditional"},{"startTime":1568.722,"endTime":1572.352,"body":"capabilities of the scrum master."},{"startTime":1572.692,"endTime":1573.272,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1573.382,"endTime":1575.462,"body":"So while they're knocking down"},{"startTime":1573.382,"endTime":1575.462,"body":"impediments, while they're"},{"startTime":1575.462,"endTime":1577.792,"body":"building teams, while they're"},{"startTime":1575.462,"endTime":1577.792,"body":"doing all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1578.037,"endTime":1581.507,"body":"They're, they're whatever leadership"},{"startTime":1578.037,"endTime":1581.507,"body":"needs them to do in the realm of quote,"},{"startTime":1581.517,"endTime":1585.577,"body":"management, that stuff's not getting done"},{"startTime":1581.517,"endTime":1585.577,"body":"or you just do it on nights and weekends"},{"startTime":1585.927,"endTime":1587.817,"body":"and then it's fine during your spare time."},{"startTime":1587.817,"endTime":1588.547,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1588.697,"endTime":1590.347,"body":"No, I thought it occurred to me."},{"startTime":1590.397,"endTime":1593.967,"body":"Reading this article is why not"},{"startTime":1590.397,"endTime":1593.967,"body":"just empower your scrum masters"},{"startTime":1594.117,"endTime":1597.567,"body":"with the ability to do all of those"},{"startTime":1594.117,"endTime":1597.567,"body":"things that the managers are doing."},{"startTime":1597.717,"endTime":1601.627,"body":"That's probably going to be an easier ask"},{"startTime":1597.717,"endTime":1601.627,"body":"than the other way around, I would think."},{"startTime":1601.777,"endTime":1604.047,"body":"At the end of the day, the"},{"startTime":1601.777,"endTime":1604.047,"body":"question is, to your point, right?"},{"startTime":1604.097,"endTime":1605.607,"body":"What are these managers doing?"},{"startTime":1605.757,"endTime":1607.657,"body":"Are they creating status reports?"},{"startTime":1607.657,"endTime":1609.217,"body":"Well, scrum masters could do that too."},{"startTime":1609.367,"endTime":1612.817,"body":"Ideally, scrum masters could leverage"},{"startTime":1609.367,"endTime":1612.817,"body":"their ALM tools instead of polishing"},{"startTime":1612.837,"endTime":1614.067,"body":"PowerPoints and whatever else."},{"startTime":1614.217,"endTime":1616.357,"body":"So what else are these"},{"startTime":1614.217,"endTime":1616.357,"body":"managers doing, really?"},{"startTime":1616.367,"endTime":1617.507,"body":"Managing budgets."},{"startTime":1617.547,"endTime":1619.497,"body":"Okay, so that's a good point, right?"},{"startTime":1619.497,"endTime":1620.437,"body":"So managing budgets."},{"startTime":1620.587,"endTime":1623.437,"body":"Budgetary skills can be learned"},{"startTime":1620.587,"endTime":1623.437,"body":"by Scrum Masters for sure."},{"startTime":1623.507,"endTime":1623.747,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":1623.897,"endTime":1624.187,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1624.247,"endTime":1625.257,"body":"Agile budgeting."},{"startTime":1625.397,"endTime":1625.697,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":1625.777,"endTime":1627.047,"body":"So there's that too."},{"startTime":1627.127,"endTime":1627.967,"body":"Hiring, firing."},{"startTime":1628.037,"endTime":1628.837,"body":"Hiring, firing."},{"startTime":1628.837,"endTime":1632.807,"body":"So if you're going to empower your Scrum"},{"startTime":1628.837,"endTime":1632.807,"body":"Masters to, you know ensure that the team"},{"startTime":1632.807,"endTime":1635.067,"body":"consistency is as optimal as possible."},{"startTime":1635.147,"endTime":1635.387,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":1635.397,"endTime":1635.737,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1635.887,"endTime":1638.437,"body":"They can be, they can be"},{"startTime":1635.887,"endTime":1638.437,"body":"hiring and firing too."},{"startTime":1638.587,"endTime":1641.607,"body":"So what I'm saying I guess is that  I"},{"startTime":1638.587,"endTime":1641.607,"body":"don't think a scrum master can't"},{"startTime":1641.607,"endTime":1643.717,"body":"do anything a manager is not doing."},{"startTime":1643.867,"endTime":1648.367,"body":"There is a small doubt in my head which"},{"startTime":1643.867,"endTime":1648.367,"body":"is around the politics of it all, right?"},{"startTime":1648.367,"endTime":1649.977,"body":"Managers are attending meetings."},{"startTime":1650.252,"endTime":1652.702,"body":"They're pleasing certain people,"},{"startTime":1650.252,"endTime":1652.702,"body":"they're saying all the right things,"},{"startTime":1652.702,"endTime":1654.102,"body":"they're doing the tip a dee toe dancing."},{"startTime":1654.402,"endTime":1654.722,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1654.932,"endTime":1657.452,"body":"Scrum Masters may not be"},{"startTime":1654.932,"endTime":1657.452,"body":"able to do that, day one."},{"startTime":1657.752,"endTime":1660.152,"body":"But then, the question is,"},{"startTime":1657.752,"endTime":1660.152,"body":"is that something that your"},{"startTime":1660.152,"endTime":1661.522,"body":"organization should covet?"},{"startTime":1661.542,"endTime":1662.812,"body":"Is that what you need to do?"},{"startTime":1662.812,"endTime":1664.252,"body":"Get it out of there!"},{"startTime":1664.442,"endTime":1665.022,"body":"If you don't need it."},{"startTime":1665.102,"endTime":1666.522,"body":"Is that what your organization needs?"},{"startTime":1666.542,"endTime":1667.042,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1667.062,"endTime":1670.822,"body":"I mean, sometimes an organization needs to"},{"startTime":1667.062,"endTime":1670.822,"body":"be staffed with middle management yes men."},{"startTime":1670.922,"endTime":1671.282,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1671.352,"endTime":1673.432,"body":"That you know, senior"},{"startTime":1671.352,"endTime":1673.432,"body":"management needs around them."},{"startTime":1673.632,"endTime":1677.492,"body":"If we want to pivot this podcast sharply"},{"startTime":1673.632,"endTime":1677.492,"body":"and radically and talk about what big"},{"startTime":1677.502,"endTime":1683.362,"body":"companies quote need Yes, yeah, like big"},{"startTime":1677.502,"endTime":1683.362,"body":"egos keep a few of them that they need"},{"startTime":1683.362,"endTime":1687.502,"body":"them Okay, so keep a few managers the yes"},{"startTime":1683.362,"endTime":1687.502,"body":"men keep a few of them get rid of the rest"},{"startTime":1687.652,"endTime":1690.832,"body":"the keeping them separate keeping"},{"startTime":1687.652,"endTime":1690.832,"body":"Scrum Masters separate Even in the"},{"startTime":1690.832,"endTime":1695.182,"body":"article it says it's easier for"},{"startTime":1690.832,"endTime":1695.182,"body":"someone who is not a manager To"},{"startTime":1695.182,"endTime":1698.172,"body":"build trust in and with the team."},{"startTime":1698.322,"endTime":1702.392,"body":"He pointed that out in the article about"},{"startTime":1698.322,"endTime":1702.392,"body":"retro there was a line about retros"},{"startTime":1702.392,"endTime":1705.962,"body":"and then we, we just pointed out the"},{"startTime":1702.392,"endTime":1705.962,"body":"scrum master being dedicated to not"},{"startTime":1705.962,"endTime":1709.752,"body":"doing these management no, it's not"},{"startTime":1705.962,"endTime":1709.752,"body":"serving up the organization you know,"},{"startTime":1709.752,"endTime":1713.122,"body":"in the traditional management role that"},{"startTime":1709.752,"endTime":1713.122,"body":"they're doing, but they can serve the"},{"startTime":1713.122,"endTime":1716.852,"body":"actual team full time and be unburdened"},{"startTime":1713.122,"endTime":1716.852,"body":"from those other responsibilities."},{"startTime":1716.902,"endTime":1718.232,"body":"I think he points that out in the article."},{"startTime":1718.532,"endTime":1719.112,"body":"To be fair."},{"startTime":1719.222,"endTime":1722.032,"body":"And then what's not in here, so,"},{"startTime":1719.222,"endTime":1722.032,"body":"so that, that's like a dedicated"},{"startTime":1722.032,"endTime":1726.522,"body":"to the team, a focus, a focus,"},{"startTime":1722.032,"endTime":1726.522,"body":"a, a, a job role focus thing."},{"startTime":1726.532,"endTime":1726.852,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1727.202,"endTime":1729.572,"body":"And then the other thing that I don't"},{"startTime":1727.202,"endTime":1729.572,"body":"think he points out in here is kind"},{"startTime":1729.572,"endTime":1734.262,"body":"of what you touch on is I'm hiring"},{"startTime":1729.572,"endTime":1734.262,"body":"someone who is an expert in these skills"},{"startTime":1734.272,"endTime":1735.812,"body":"that I need them to be an expert in."},{"startTime":1735.962,"endTime":1740.922,"body":"So if I take a, like a director"},{"startTime":1735.962,"endTime":1740.922,"body":"of HR and I tell them, Hey, you're"},{"startTime":1740.922,"endTime":1743.632,"body":"the, you're the scrum master"},{"startTime":1740.922,"endTime":1743.632,"body":"now for this team that's doing."},{"startTime":1743.782,"endTime":1743.992,"body":"HR."},{"startTime":1744.042,"endTime":1746.512,"body":"That's the last person you need to"},{"startTime":1744.042,"endTime":1746.512,"body":"do that with because he's going to"},{"startTime":1746.522,"endTime":1748.432,"body":"start on the roles I'm a director."},{"startTime":1748.432,"endTime":1749.052,"body":"I don't do that."},{"startTime":1749.092,"endTime":1749.352,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1749.352,"endTime":1750.022,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1750.202,"endTime":1752.162,"body":"It's just like taking that person"},{"startTime":1750.202,"endTime":1752.162,"body":"and say, oh, you're the product"},{"startTime":1752.162,"endTime":1753.542,"body":"owner now for the finance."},{"startTime":1753.552,"endTime":1756.052,"body":"You, you, the finance, you,"},{"startTime":1753.552,"endTime":1756.052,"body":"you, the CPA, you're the."},{"startTime":1756.202,"endTime":1759.232,"body":"You're the product owner"},{"startTime":1756.202,"endTime":1759.232,"body":"now with no product manager"},{"startTime":1759.232,"endTime":1760.252,"body":"training or anything like that."},{"startTime":1760.257,"endTime":1761.512,"body":"This this devolves into this."},{"startTime":1761.512,"endTime":1764.632,"body":"The, the, the idea that all you"},{"startTime":1761.512,"endTime":1764.632,"body":"really need is a, a warm body"},{"startTime":1764.632,"endTime":1765.772,"body":"and say you're now the expert."},{"startTime":1765.952,"endTime":1769.212,"body":"Like go to your, go to your director"},{"startTime":1765.952,"endTime":1769.212,"body":"of finance and say, you, you're"},{"startTime":1769.212,"endTime":1772.112,"body":"now the scrum master and they're"},{"startTime":1769.212,"endTime":1772.112,"body":"gonna really nickel and dime."},{"startTime":1772.112,"endTime":1774.722,"body":"'cause that's what they do that"},{"startTime":1772.112,"endTime":1774.722,"body":"and nothing wrong with that."},{"startTime":1774.962,"endTime":1775.052,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1775.052,"endTime":1776.102,"body":"That's what they do."},{"startTime":1776.222,"endTime":1777.842,"body":"That's their core competency."},{"startTime":1777.992,"endTime":1780.773,"body":"I don't  I don't even have a problem"},{"startTime":1777.992,"endTime":1780.773,"body":"with saying that like some of the like."},{"startTime":1780.923,"endTime":1784.753,"body":"Some of the best people that I've"},{"startTime":1780.923,"endTime":1784.753,"body":"worked with in, in product, they"},{"startTime":1784.753,"endTime":1786.133,"body":"come from that business domain."},{"startTime":1786.693,"endTime":1788.643,"body":"But again, like they come from that"},{"startTime":1786.693,"endTime":1788.643,"body":"business domain and they all, they"},{"startTime":1788.643,"endTime":1791.693,"body":"all have the same story when I talk"},{"startTime":1788.643,"endTime":1791.693,"body":"to them is  Oh, I got dropped in."},{"startTime":1791.893,"endTime":1793.353,"body":"I didn't know anything"},{"startTime":1791.893,"endTime":1793.353,"body":"about writing stories."},{"startTime":1793.353,"endTime":1794.773,"body":"I didn't know anything"},{"startTime":1793.353,"endTime":1794.773,"body":"about managing backlogs."},{"startTime":1794.773,"endTime":1797.143,"body":"I didn't know anything about I"},{"startTime":1794.773,"endTime":1797.143,"body":"didn't, I wasn't in business analysis."},{"startTime":1797.193,"endTime":1799.853,"body":"And they get a lot of help and they"},{"startTime":1797.193,"endTime":1799.853,"body":"kind of muddle through it or whatever."},{"startTime":1799.853,"endTime":1802.473,"body":"Maybe they get some training"},{"startTime":1799.853,"endTime":1802.473,"body":"and they they figure it out."},{"startTime":1802.623,"endTime":1805.353,"body":"I would believe the path"},{"startTime":1802.623,"endTime":1805.353,"body":"being prescribed here."},{"startTime":1805.503,"endTime":1807.273,"body":"Drop somebody in as a manager."},{"startTime":1807.553,"endTime":1808.243,"body":"They're smart people."},{"startTime":1808.243,"endTime":1809.143,"body":"They made it to management."},{"startTime":1809.483,"endTime":1810.273,"body":"Let them figure it out."},{"startTime":1810.423,"endTime":1813.443,"body":"Everything here in the scrum,"},{"startTime":1810.423,"endTime":1813.443,"body":"in the scrum master position is"},{"startTime":1813.443,"endTime":1815.268,"body":"not the bedrock of management."},{"startTime":1815.268,"endTime":1817.518,"body":"Yeah, that's not what you"},{"startTime":1815.268,"endTime":1817.518,"body":"don't learn this stuff."},{"startTime":1817.848,"endTime":1821.148,"body":"In fact, I would argue MB most,"},{"startTime":1817.848,"endTime":1821.148,"body":"I would argue that most MBA"},{"startTime":1821.148,"endTime":1823.368,"body":"programs are the opposite of this."},{"startTime":1823.518,"endTime":1826.548,"body":"' cause again, like go, hey,"},{"startTime":1823.518,"endTime":1826.548,"body":"going back to Taylorism, going"},{"startTime":1826.548,"endTime":1827.838,"body":"back to our Taylorism podcast."},{"startTime":1828.168,"endTime":1828.438,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1828.438,"endTime":1828.883,"body":"That's the root."},{"startTime":1828.883,"endTime":1829.123,"body":"Exactly right."},{"startTime":1829.248,"endTime":1833.688,"body":"The root of this management infrastructure"},{"startTime":1829.248,"endTime":1833.688,"body":"is I'm gonna tell you exactly what to do"},{"startTime":1833.928,"endTime":1836.688,"body":"and you are too dumb to know the best way."},{"startTime":1837.208,"endTime":1838.868,"body":"But that, that's, that's"},{"startTime":1837.208,"endTime":1838.868,"body":"the thing that concerns me."},{"startTime":1838.878,"endTime":1841.918,"body":"It's  do, do these managers have these"},{"startTime":1838.878,"endTime":1841.918,"body":"skills that are much more difficult?"},{"startTime":1841.928,"endTime":1845.298,"body":"Like you can go through a two"},{"startTime":1841.928,"endTime":1845.298,"body":"day class, learn all about Scrum."},{"startTime":1845.448,"endTime":1845.778,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":1845.928,"endTime":1851.098,"body":"Two days and we've then set you on a"},{"startTime":1845.928,"endTime":1851.098,"body":"career of learning and opportunity While"},{"startTime":1851.098,"endTime":1855.138,"body":"you mess things up for all the teams"},{"startTime":1851.098,"endTime":1855.138,"body":"Well, that's the same thing that applies"},{"startTime":1855.138,"endTime":1859.698,"body":"to newly minted scrum masters sitting"},{"startTime":1855.138,"endTime":1859.698,"body":"in today class Sure, the soft skills"},{"startTime":1859.698,"endTime":1861.738,"body":"that it takes to succeed in the role."},{"startTime":1862.078,"endTime":1863.278,"body":"You can't learn in a class."},{"startTime":1863.278,"endTime":1867.248,"body":"That's the issue You need the experience"},{"startTime":1863.278,"endTime":1867.248,"body":"and unfortunately those people that"},{"startTime":1867.248,"endTime":1870.608,"body":"are in the traditional management"},{"startTime":1867.248,"endTime":1870.608,"body":"role aren't the best at these soft"},{"startTime":1870.608,"endTime":1874.358,"body":"skills They're more They're more"},{"startTime":1870.608,"endTime":1874.358,"body":"likely to be command and control"},{"startTime":1874.358,"endTime":1877.688,"body":"driven do this by this date, right?"},{"startTime":1877.708,"endTime":1878.588,"body":"Because I'm telling you to"},{"startTime":1878.878,"endTime":1883.038,"body":"what do you think about , he says the"},{"startTime":1878.878,"endTime":1883.038,"body":"role conflicts happen like pressure"},{"startTime":1883.038,"endTime":1887.358,"body":"from the team and leading to disharmony"},{"startTime":1883.038,"endTime":1887.358,"body":"on the team because the, the project"},{"startTime":1887.358,"endTime":1891.198,"body":"manager or manager is driving something"},{"startTime":1887.358,"endTime":1891.198,"body":"and they tried to pressure the team and"},{"startTime":1891.198,"endTime":1895.308,"body":"then he says, well, scrum masters do that"},{"startTime":1891.198,"endTime":1895.308,"body":"right now anyway because he's basically"},{"startTime":1895.308,"endTime":1898.718,"body":"saying  Well, we should try it with"},{"startTime":1895.308,"endTime":1898.718,"body":"managers because scrum masters have these"},{"startTime":1898.738,"endTime":1900.498,"body":"problems too, the way we're doing it now."},{"startTime":1900.758,"endTime":1903.708,"body":"Assuming that the way we're doing"},{"startTime":1900.758,"endTime":1903.708,"body":"it now is what we're kind of"},{"startTime":1903.718,"endTime":1905.478,"body":"advocating, kind of falling into."},{"startTime":1905.668,"endTime":1908.748,"body":"Yeah, we have, we've seen this"},{"startTime":1905.668,"endTime":1908.748,"body":"before, like scrum masters are"},{"startTime":1908.808,"endTime":1911.328,"body":"falling into this because they"},{"startTime":1908.808,"endTime":1911.328,"body":"don't have experience perhaps."},{"startTime":1911.588,"endTime":1914.478,"body":"Or, more likely, it's something"},{"startTime":1911.588,"endTime":1914.478,"body":"I've seen lately a lot."},{"startTime":1914.478,"endTime":1919.103,"body":"The scrum master was really a project"},{"startTime":1914.478,"endTime":1919.103,"body":"manager for many years and now they've"},{"startTime":1919.103,"endTime":1920.543,"body":"been told, you're a scrum master."},{"startTime":1920.693,"endTime":1922.263,"body":"So of course you're"},{"startTime":1920.693,"endTime":1922.263,"body":"going to see this, right?"},{"startTime":1922.413,"endTime":1926.103,"body":"Just because that's happening today"},{"startTime":1922.413,"endTime":1926.103,"body":"doesn't necessarily mean that the"},{"startTime":1926.103,"endTime":1929.933,"body":"benefits a manager or direction"},{"startTime":1926.103,"endTime":1929.933,"body":"brings to a scrum team outweighs the"},{"startTime":1929.933,"endTime":1932.983,"body":"risks discussed above, like he says"},{"startTime":1929.933,"endTime":1932.983,"body":"in that last line of the paragraph."},{"startTime":1933.133,"endTime":1934.403,"body":"I don't agree with that line."},{"startTime":1934.693,"endTime":1936.333,"body":"I think the risk is still there, right?"},{"startTime":1936.383,"endTime":1939.663,"body":"I think ultimately it comes"},{"startTime":1936.383,"endTime":1939.663,"body":"down to who you put in the role."},{"startTime":1939.913,"endTime":1941.993,"body":"What experience do they"},{"startTime":1939.913,"endTime":1941.993,"body":"bring to the table?"},{"startTime":1942.073,"endTime":1942.773,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1942.773,"endTime":1944.233,"body":"That's what it comes down to, to me."},{"startTime":1944.383,"endTime":1947.433,"body":"It's kind of coming back to me with like"},{"startTime":1944.383,"endTime":1947.433,"body":"one of the last lines in the article about"},{"startTime":1947.433,"endTime":1952.773,"body":"changing mindset Like that you're gonna"},{"startTime":1947.433,"endTime":1952.773,"body":"change the mindset of a manager into a"},{"startTime":1952.783,"endTime":1957.343,"body":"leader basically, that's that's the that's"},{"startTime":1952.783,"endTime":1957.343,"body":"the challenge here, but I like the number"},{"startTime":1957.343,"endTime":1961.163,"body":"of managers Who are also good leaders."},{"startTime":1961.313,"endTime":1964.503,"body":"I mean I'm counting on one hand"},{"startTime":1961.313,"endTime":1964.503,"body":"here, over a 20 year career."},{"startTime":1964.653,"endTime":1969.383,"body":"Those, those very, very special people"},{"startTime":1964.653,"endTime":1969.383,"body":"that have both of those frameworks."},{"startTime":1969.434,"endTime":1972.084,"body":"You know what I've also stayed away"},{"startTime":1969.434,"endTime":1972.084,"body":"from critiquing on this podcast"},{"startTime":1972.094,"endTime":1974.879,"body":"is the quote positional authority."},{"startTime":1974.879,"endTime":1977.789,"body":"I've stayed away from really like"},{"startTime":1974.879,"endTime":1977.789,"body":"if I'm going to take my knives"},{"startTime":1977.789,"endTime":1979.799,"body":"out and get into something, I'm"},{"startTime":1977.789,"endTime":1979.799,"body":"going to get into positional"},{"startTime":1979.799,"endTime":1981.559,"body":"authority like positional authority."},{"startTime":1981.559,"endTime":1982.269,"body":"What a phrase."},{"startTime":1982.299,"endTime":1984.879,"body":"If you have to roll out positional"},{"startTime":1982.299,"endTime":1984.879,"body":"authority to get something done,"},{"startTime":1984.879,"endTime":1987.599,"body":"like you're, you're, you're"},{"startTime":1984.879,"endTime":1987.599,"body":"finished, you're finished."},{"startTime":1987.749,"endTime":1988.729,"body":"You really need it."},{"startTime":1988.879,"endTime":1992.769,"body":"You really need some introspection"},{"startTime":1988.879,"endTime":1992.769,"body":"at that point to say, why did"},{"startTime":1992.769,"endTime":1993.729,"body":"I have to do this this way?"},{"startTime":1994.029,"endTime":1997.389,"body":"What's what's what's wrong with me"},{"startTime":1994.029,"endTime":1997.389,"body":"and my organization that I had to"},{"startTime":1997.389,"endTime":1998.989,"body":"do things by throwing weight around?"},{"startTime":1999.139,"endTime":2000.899,"body":"Do you think that people"},{"startTime":1999.139,"endTime":2000.899,"body":"would have done this?"},{"startTime":2001.049,"endTime":2003.649,"body":"If it wasn't you asking for it to be done."},{"startTime":2003.799,"endTime":2005.029,"body":"And if the answer is no"},{"startTime":2005.229,"endTime":2008.029,"body":"if what you're saying is true and"},{"startTime":2005.229,"endTime":2008.029,"body":"what you're what you were saying to do"},{"startTime":2008.029,"endTime":2012.739,"body":"Obviously is the right thing like you've"},{"startTime":2008.029,"endTime":2012.739,"body":"used your founder slash CEO Business"},{"startTime":2012.739,"endTime":2016.249,"body":"owner intuition just to cut through"},{"startTime":2012.739,"endTime":2016.249,"body":"the noise and make a decision kind of"},{"startTime":2016.249,"endTime":2017.559,"body":"what we said was the advantage of this."},{"startTime":2017.599,"endTime":2019.179,"body":"Mm hmm What's wrong?"},{"startTime":2019.329,"endTime":2023.809,"body":"That all these people couldn't make that"},{"startTime":2019.329,"endTime":2023.809,"body":"decision Okay, and I would I want to talk"},{"startTime":2023.819,"endTime":2027.069,"body":"about that I want to talk about how come"},{"startTime":2023.819,"endTime":2027.069,"body":"these people didn't recognize the value"},{"startTime":2027.349,"endTime":2030.694,"body":"and then execute on it and pull together"},{"startTime":2027.349,"endTime":2030.694,"body":"and execute on it Let's talk about that."},{"startTime":2030.894,"endTime":2031.874,"body":"What I just did was a leadership."},{"startTime":2031.914,"endTime":2032.924,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":2032.944,"endTime":2036.634,"body":"I think this is that discussion where"},{"startTime":2032.944,"endTime":2036.634,"body":"do you bring work to the people?"},{"startTime":2036.634,"endTime":2037.764,"body":"You bring people to the work."},{"startTime":2037.914,"endTime":2042.044,"body":"Your people aren't really empowered to"},{"startTime":2037.914,"endTime":2042.044,"body":"First of all, they may not even be aligned"},{"startTime":2042.044,"endTime":2045.704,"body":"with the organizational objectives,"},{"startTime":2042.044,"endTime":2045.704,"body":"but even if they were not be aligned."},{"startTime":2045.714,"endTime":2046.124,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2046.124,"endTime":2047.054,"body":"The whole org, right?"},{"startTime":2047.194,"endTime":2051.734,"body":"So even if they were even say mildly"},{"startTime":2047.194,"endTime":2051.734,"body":"aligned, they're not empowered to"},{"startTime":2051.734,"endTime":2054.694,"body":"make these decisions because you've"},{"startTime":2051.734,"endTime":2054.694,"body":"got these decision makers in the"},{"startTime":2054.694,"endTime":2058.194,"body":"middle that are kind of driving"},{"startTime":2054.694,"endTime":2058.194,"body":"things almost by brute force."},{"startTime":2058.344,"endTime":2062.174,"body":"That organization isn't necessarily"},{"startTime":2058.344,"endTime":2062.174,"body":"going to succeed by saving money."},{"startTime":2062.234,"endTime":2065.934,"body":"You know, laying off scrum masters"},{"startTime":2062.234,"endTime":2065.934,"body":"because that's pervasive within"},{"startTime":2066.074,"endTime":2067.699,"body":"the DNA of the Of the org, right?"},{"startTime":2067.849,"endTime":2069.139,"body":"So get rid of scrum masters."},{"startTime":2069.179,"endTime":2069.939,"body":"Now what next?"},{"startTime":2070.239,"endTime":2072.169,"body":"Because you're not going"},{"startTime":2070.239,"endTime":2072.169,"body":"to make it just from that."},{"startTime":2072.169,"endTime":2075.859,"body":"Well, that, I mean, that, that"},{"startTime":2072.169,"endTime":2075.859,"body":"particular reaction of, Oh, there's"},{"startTime":2075.859,"endTime":2077.729,"body":"a slight downturn in the business."},{"startTime":2077.799,"endTime":2080.929,"body":"I'm going to run out and delete all my"},{"startTime":2077.799,"endTime":2080.929,"body":"scrum masters and make up the money."},{"startTime":2080.929,"endTime":2082.119,"body":"So my bottom line looks better."},{"startTime":2082.119,"endTime":2084.609,"body":"Like that's pervasive next week."},{"startTime":2084.609,"endTime":2085.909,"body":"They're going to do that"},{"startTime":2084.609,"endTime":2085.909,"body":"with customer service."},{"startTime":2085.909,"endTime":2088.489,"body":"And back in the day when everyone"},{"startTime":2085.909,"endTime":2088.489,"body":"was sending their call centers"},{"startTime":2088.489,"endTime":2090.919,"body":"to other countries or whatever,"},{"startTime":2088.489,"endTime":2090.919,"body":"like it's the same thing."},{"startTime":2091.239,"endTime":2093.049,"body":"Businesses always are going to do that."},{"startTime":2093.199,"endTime":2096.729,"body":"You know, like the, the, my, the"},{"startTime":2093.199,"endTime":2096.729,"body":"difficult part for me with that is"},{"startTime":2096.729,"endTime":2098.549,"body":"how to insulate yourself from that."},{"startTime":2098.549,"endTime":2101.619,"body":"I mean, these soft skills are a great"},{"startTime":2098.549,"endTime":2101.619,"body":"way to insulate yourself from that."},{"startTime":2101.809,"endTime":2102.089,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2102.239,"endTime":2102.769,"body":"You know, and,"},{"startTime":2102.769,"endTime":2106.769,"body":"and also like the, the one thing that a"},{"startTime":2102.769,"endTime":2106.769,"body":"lot of a lot of people in the comments for"},{"startTime":2106.769,"endTime":2111.968,"body":"some reason took exception with his line"},{"startTime":2106.769,"endTime":2111.968,"body":"in here about Delivery bottom line is that"},{"startTime":2111.969,"endTime":2113.749,"body":"the point of Scrum is getting things done."},{"startTime":2113.759,"endTime":2115.329,"body":"That's, a lot of people"},{"startTime":2113.759,"endTime":2115.329,"body":"took exception with that."},{"startTime":2115.519,"endTime":2117.809,"body":"I understand that's not exactly"},{"startTime":2115.519,"endTime":2117.809,"body":"the bottom line of Scrum."},{"startTime":2117.959,"endTime":2121.989,"body":"But what he's, what he's pointing out"},{"startTime":2117.959,"endTime":2121.989,"body":"is the people that are getting things"},{"startTime":2121.989,"endTime":2124.739,"body":"done are perceived in a certain way."},{"startTime":2124.889,"endTime":2126.359,"body":"That's, I think that's where he's going."},{"startTime":2126.389,"endTime":2128.879,"body":"Again, I don't know exactly, but I"},{"startTime":2126.389,"endTime":2128.879,"body":"think that's where he's going with that."},{"startTime":2128.889,"endTime":2129.189,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2129.339,"endTime":2131.619,"body":"And I with that, I gotta I gotta say."},{"startTime":2131.769,"endTime":2135.179,"body":"Or, or, as far as organizational"},{"startTime":2131.769,"endTime":2135.179,"body":"design goes, as far as delivering"},{"startTime":2135.199,"endTime":2139.629,"body":"actual products to customers go, even"},{"startTime":2135.199,"endTime":2139.629,"body":"in product management, building your"},{"startTime":2139.659,"endTime":2143.629,"body":"network of customers who rely on you for"},{"startTime":2139.659,"endTime":2143.629,"body":"communication and go straight to you when"},{"startTime":2143.629,"endTime":2146.609,"body":"they have problems or do, you know what"},{"startTime":2143.629,"endTime":2146.609,"body":"I mean, who know that you're the go to"},{"startTime":2146.609,"endTime":2149.679,"body":"person or whatever That's the that's the"},{"startTime":2146.609,"endTime":2149.679,"body":"product management equivalent of this"},{"startTime":2149.689,"endTime":2153.149,"body":"is they know you're the person to get"},{"startTime":2149.689,"endTime":2153.149,"body":"things done So they're going to come to"},{"startTime":2153.149,"endTime":2156.539,"body":"you right and that reliance is going to"},{"startTime":2153.149,"endTime":2156.539,"body":"make you more and more and more valuable"},{"startTime":2156.539,"endTime":2160.139,"body":"to the business You got to build that"},{"startTime":2156.539,"endTime":2160.139,"body":"like the, the, the, the way the phrase"},{"startTime":2160.139,"endTime":2163.319,"body":"here about the bottom line is a point,"},{"startTime":2160.139,"endTime":2163.319,"body":"point of scrum is getting things to done."},{"startTime":2163.319,"endTime":2164.719,"body":"Like it's a little clunky."},{"startTime":2164.869,"endTime":2165.809,"body":"I can expand on it though."},{"startTime":2165.809,"endTime":2168.319,"body":"You can get a lot of things to done"},{"startTime":2165.809,"endTime":2168.319,"body":"and they may not be the right thing."},{"startTime":2168.569,"endTime":2168.849,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2168.849,"endTime":2169.029,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2169.179,"endTime":2171.079,"body":"I mean, feature factories"},{"startTime":2169.179,"endTime":2171.079,"body":"is an example of that."},{"startTime":2171.109,"endTime":2176.688,"body":"And the scary part about this"},{"startTime":2171.109,"endTime":2176.688,"body":"article to me is the active calling"},{"startTime":2176.688,"endTime":2178.158,"body":"for a stop hiring scrum masters."},{"startTime":2178.308,"endTime":2179.638,"body":"Just make your managers do it."},{"startTime":2180.048,"endTime":2182.418,"body":"And then the part about Scrum"},{"startTime":2180.048,"endTime":2182.418,"body":"is about getting things done."},{"startTime":2182.568,"endTime":2185.248,"body":"The scary thing between those"},{"startTime":2182.568,"endTime":2185.248,"body":"two statements is, people will"},{"startTime":2185.248,"endTime":2190.058,"body":"read this to validate their"},{"startTime":2185.248,"endTime":2190.058,"body":"crappy way of doing business."},{"startTime":2190.398,"endTime":2190.858,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2190.858,"endTime":2192.428,"body":"And they'll just read"},{"startTime":2190.858,"endTime":2192.428,"body":"into it what they want."},{"startTime":2192.618,"endTime":2196.688,"body":"Whereas, the point of getting to"},{"startTime":2192.618,"endTime":2196.688,"body":"value, that's product management."},{"startTime":2196.718,"endTime":2197.908,"body":"That's a discipline of product management."},{"startTime":2198.088,"endTime":2200.638,"body":"So you've got all these product"},{"startTime":2198.088,"endTime":2200.638,"body":"managers now, all these newly minted"},{"startTime":2200.758,"endTime":2204.378,"body":"MBA product managers or all these"},{"startTime":2200.758,"endTime":2204.378,"body":"people going through reforge classes"},{"startTime":2204.378,"endTime":2205.018,"body":"and whatnot right now, right now"},{"startTime":2205.218,"endTime":2209.968,"body":"they're being fed on all the developers"},{"startTime":2205.218,"endTime":2209.968,"body":"that are out there hating on scrum"},{"startTime":2210.278,"endTime":2212.008,"body":"because It's been done poorly."},{"startTime":2212.148,"endTime":2212.508,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2212.658,"endTime":2216.648,"body":"And where their tech lead has been their"},{"startTime":2212.658,"endTime":2216.648,"body":"scrum master, and it's just been used"},{"startTime":2216.648,"endTime":2219.808,"body":"as a tool to whip them to do more work."},{"startTime":2219.958,"endTime":2222.908,"body":"And it's the scrum teams where"},{"startTime":2219.958,"endTime":2222.908,"body":"your manager tells you what to"},{"startTime":2222.908,"endTime":2226.318,"body":"work on and assigns work, and you"},{"startTime":2222.908,"endTime":2226.318,"body":"don't peer anything, you work by"},{"startTime":2226.318,"endTime":2227.318,"body":"yourself, and you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2227.578,"endTime":2229.308,"body":"That's a lot of people's experience."},{"startTime":2229.458,"endTime":2233.738,"body":"So, what people are going to hear"},{"startTime":2229.458,"endTime":2233.738,"body":"out of this is, Look, even the scrum"},{"startTime":2233.748,"endTime":2235.318,"body":"trainers say, Don't hire scrum masters."},{"startTime":2235.318,"endTime":2237.918,"body":"That's the danger in these"},{"startTime":2235.318,"endTime":2237.918,"body":"kinds of posts, I feel."},{"startTime":2238.258,"endTime":2239.478,"body":"That's, that's my issue here."},{"startTime":2239.528,"endTime":2239.748,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2239.778,"endTime":2242.518,"body":"And again, He touches"},{"startTime":2239.778,"endTime":2242.518,"body":"on aligning with goals."},{"startTime":2242.668,"endTime":2245.188,"body":"He touches on changing"},{"startTime":2242.668,"endTime":2245.188,"body":"leadership's mindset."},{"startTime":2245.338,"endTime":2250.098,"body":"None of that stuff, the product managers"},{"startTime":2245.338,"endTime":2250.098,"body":"are picking up and running with."},{"startTime":2250.248,"endTime":2250.658,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2250.768,"endTime":2253.638,"body":"They're, they're, they're seeing this and"},{"startTime":2250.768,"endTime":2253.638,"body":"be  Oh, I don't need to, I don't, I don't"},{"startTime":2253.648,"endTime":2254.898,"body":"need to worry about this scrum stuff."},{"startTime":2254.898,"endTime":2259.008,"body":"Cause it, even the, even the scrum people"},{"startTime":2254.898,"endTime":2259.008,"body":"say it's scrum master stuff is nonsense."},{"startTime":2259.158,"endTime":2260.278,"body":"That's my fear with this."},{"startTime":2260.298,"endTime":2261.028,"body":"That's, that's my fear with this."},{"startTime":2261.028,"endTime":2261.418,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2261.418,"endTime":2265.858,"body":"I think this kind of a blog has"},{"startTime":2261.418,"endTime":2265.858,"body":"that risk, really, of people running"},{"startTime":2265.868,"endTime":2267.228,"body":"with their impressions of it."},{"startTime":2267.378,"endTime":2269.778,"body":"Probably sort of false impressions, maybe?"},{"startTime":2269.928,"endTime":2270.228,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":2270.318,"endTime":2270.978,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2271.038,"endTime":2274.518,"body":"Well, the, the, the issue now is"},{"startTime":2271.038,"endTime":2274.518,"body":"like the if you want Waterfall,"},{"startTime":2274.518,"endTime":2275.688,"body":"this is how you get Waterfall."},{"startTime":2275.838,"endTime":2278.033,"body":"This is how you get product managers"},{"startTime":2275.838,"endTime":2278.033,"body":"saying  well, we're just not"},{"startTime":2278.033,"endTime":2279.113,"body":"gonna deal with the Scrum stuff."},{"startTime":2279.113,"endTime":2281.663,"body":"Like we'll just we'll just you"},{"startTime":2279.113,"endTime":2281.663,"body":"know, we'll, we'll get the customer"},{"startTime":2281.668,"endTime":2284.363,"body":"on, on, on the phone and they'll"},{"startTime":2281.668,"endTime":2284.363,"body":"just tell us everything they want."},{"startTime":2284.368,"endTime":2285.443,"body":"We'll write it all down once."},{"startTime":2285.593,"endTime":2288.793,"body":"And then you know, and then we'll"},{"startTime":2285.593,"endTime":2288.793,"body":"hand it over to the tech lead because"},{"startTime":2288.793,"endTime":2290.883,"body":"they do, they do tech lead things."},{"startTime":2290.883,"endTime":2291.873,"body":"They do development things."},{"startTime":2291.913,"endTime":2294.703,"body":"They, they quote, speak"},{"startTime":2291.913,"endTime":2294.703,"body":"developers languages."},{"startTime":2294.853,"endTime":2297.313,"body":"And then I'll go get lunch for"},{"startTime":2294.853,"endTime":2297.313,"body":"the rest of my day, or whatever."},{"startTime":2297.633,"endTime":2300.673,"body":"Right, and then eventually, months down"},{"startTime":2297.633,"endTime":2300.673,"body":"the road, when you deliver something"},{"startTime":2300.673,"endTime":2303.783,"body":"to the customer and they say that's not"},{"startTime":2300.673,"endTime":2303.783,"body":"what they want, you're gonna jump up and"},{"startTime":2303.783,"endTime":2305.073,"body":"down and go change order, change order."},{"startTime":2305.113,"endTime":2308.353,"body":"No no, what's actually, what's going to"},{"startTime":2305.113,"endTime":2308.353,"body":"happen is happening in product management"},{"startTime":2308.353,"endTime":2311.883,"body":"right now is months down the road when you"},{"startTime":2308.353,"endTime":2311.883,"body":"don't deliver, Or you deliver something"},{"startTime":2311.883,"endTime":2315.513,"body":"the customer doesn't want, then they"},{"startTime":2311.883,"endTime":2315.513,"body":"can your program and then the, your"},{"startTime":2315.513,"endTime":2319.373,"body":"company reduces 20 percent of the product"},{"startTime":2315.513,"endTime":2319.373,"body":"managers and then the, and then I get"},{"startTime":2319.683,"endTime":2323.753,"body":"clickbait articles about his product"},{"startTime":2319.683,"endTime":2323.753,"body":"management on the way out to, so again"},{"startTime":2323.763,"endTime":2327.563,"body":"there's no, there, I don't know, thanks"},{"startTime":2323.763,"endTime":2327.563,"body":"for listening to our no win scenario."},{"startTime":2327.623,"endTime":2328.813,"body":"It's  I don't know, like there,"},{"startTime":2329.013,"endTime":2331.533,"body":"there's a lot of points in here that,"},{"startTime":2329.013,"endTime":2331.533,"body":"that I feel could be expanded on."},{"startTime":2331.533,"endTime":2334.253,"body":"Even them two years ago, we're"},{"startTime":2331.533,"endTime":2334.253,"body":"saying the opposite of this."},{"startTime":2334.583,"endTime":2337.323,"body":"So there's some challenges to"},{"startTime":2334.583,"endTime":2337.323,"body":"some traditional ways of thinking."},{"startTime":2337.393,"endTime":2337.623,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2337.773,"endTime":2339.173,"body":"They're good to be explored."},{"startTime":2339.383,"endTime":2341.733,"body":"But I think if I was an organization."},{"startTime":2341.883,"endTime":2345.003,"body":"Rather than saying well, I'm just"},{"startTime":2341.883,"endTime":2345.003,"body":"gonna full time hire these people"},{"startTime":2345.003,"endTime":2348.193,"body":"come in and just train everyone in my"},{"startTime":2345.003,"endTime":2348.193,"body":"organization Why wouldn't I also want"},{"startTime":2348.203,"endTime":2352.433,"body":"experts in my organization at the same"},{"startTime":2348.203,"endTime":2352.433,"body":"time like actual experts not not not"},{"startTime":2352.543,"endTime":2356.563,"body":"people who are subbing in With the"},{"startTime":2352.543,"endTime":2356.563,"body":"role like uh, let me put it this way."},{"startTime":2356.633,"endTime":2358.673,"body":"I'm going to try my hand at analogies."},{"startTime":2358.673,"endTime":2359.633,"body":"I'm not, I'm going to try it."},{"startTime":2359.633,"endTime":2360.163,"body":"I'm going to try it."},{"startTime":2360.163,"endTime":2362.643,"body":"You know that I'm trying, I'm trying,"},{"startTime":2360.163,"endTime":2362.643,"body":"I'm trying to be a better person."},{"startTime":2362.643,"endTime":2364.673,"body":"I'm trying to change"},{"startTime":2362.643,"endTime":2364.673,"body":"my, change my evil ways."},{"startTime":2364.823,"endTime":2368.973,"body":"Here's my analogy is we're all"},{"startTime":2364.823,"endTime":2368.973,"body":"part of  the adult baseball league."},{"startTime":2369.208,"endTime":2372.388,"body":"We're once a week we all come and"},{"startTime":2369.208,"endTime":2372.388,"body":"we all dress in our co our baseball"},{"startTime":2372.388,"endTime":2376.418,"body":"costumes and we pretend to to, to"},{"startTime":2372.388,"endTime":2376.418,"body":"be pros and we have a fun time."},{"startTime":2376.418,"endTime":2379.568,"body":"We keep score, but no one's really too"},{"startTime":2376.418,"endTime":2379.568,"body":"serious and it's just a fun thing to do."},{"startTime":2379.568,"endTime":2380.618,"body":"Stay fit, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2380.818,"endTime":2383.958,"body":"But, e, every so often a professional"},{"startTime":2380.818,"endTime":2383.958,"body":"baseball player will show up."},{"startTime":2384.108,"endTime":2387.318,"body":"They really show, show you how it's done"},{"startTime":2384.108,"endTime":2387.318,"body":"and they will show us how it's done."},{"startTime":2387.318,"endTime":2387.738,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2388.038,"endTime":2389.238,"body":"And we will all be in awe."},{"startTime":2389.388,"endTime":2389.748,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2389.898,"endTime":2391.488,"body":"Because none of us can hit profession."},{"startTime":2391.493,"endTime":2394.578,"body":"Like none of us can hit Major League"},{"startTime":2391.493,"endTime":2394.578,"body":"or even minor league, like even"},{"startTime":2394.578,"endTime":2395.478,"body":"a minor league player will show."},{"startTime":2395.478,"endTime":2395.54,"body":"Yeah, I know."},{"startTime":2395.545,"endTime":2395.613,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":2395.898,"endTime":2398.133,"body":"None of us minor, none of us"},{"startTime":2395.898,"endTime":2398.133,"body":"can hit minor league pitching."},{"startTime":2398.283,"endTime":2398.783,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2398.793,"endTime":2402.553,"body":"None of us can crack it out of the whole"},{"startTime":2398.793,"endTime":2402.553,"body":"park every single shot, every single"},{"startTime":2402.553,"endTime":2406.893,"body":"shot and, and that, that would be the"},{"startTime":2402.553,"endTime":2406.893,"body":"difference here is, is you can do this."},{"startTime":2407.173,"endTime":2407.463,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2407.463,"endTime":2410.623,"body":"You can say, well, we're just going"},{"startTime":2407.463,"endTime":2410.623,"body":"to have part time players on our team."},{"startTime":2410.763,"endTime":2412.493,"body":"We're all just going to be"},{"startTime":2410.763,"endTime":2412.493,"body":"weekend warriors and we're"},{"startTime":2412.493,"endTime":2415.843,"body":"committed because listen we got"},{"startTime":2412.493,"endTime":2415.843,"body":"to keep the dollar value down."},{"startTime":2415.993,"endTime":2418.613,"body":"That's a great, however,"},{"startTime":2415.993,"endTime":2418.613,"body":"just like product management."},{"startTime":2418.763,"endTime":2421.783,"body":"However, when, when the,"},{"startTime":2418.763,"endTime":2421.783,"body":"when the professional players"},{"startTime":2421.783,"endTime":2423.083,"body":"show up, you will know it."},{"startTime":2423.233,"endTime":2423.763,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":2423.913,"endTime":2424.133,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2424.143,"endTime":2428.353,"body":"You definitely will know it a professional"},{"startTime":2424.143,"endTime":2428.353,"body":"is a professional for a reason, right?"},{"startTime":2428.353,"endTime":2431.743,"body":"I mean, they've, they've been"},{"startTime":2428.353,"endTime":2431.743,"body":"through the experience curve, right?"},{"startTime":2431.813,"endTime":2435.633,"body":"And so if you bring somebody like"},{"startTime":2431.813,"endTime":2435.633,"body":"that in the organization and have them"},{"startTime":2435.643,"endTime":2439.793,"body":"train your people, they're also there"},{"startTime":2435.643,"endTime":2439.793,"body":"to act as a mentor, coach, et cetera."},{"startTime":2440.123,"endTime":2444.683,"body":"So that, that's a much better model by"},{"startTime":2440.123,"endTime":2444.683,"body":"model as opposed to the rent model, you"},{"startTime":2444.693,"endTime":2446.553,"body":"get people in train and then they leave."},{"startTime":2446.703,"endTime":2450.093,"body":"Because they have no skin in the game"},{"startTime":2446.703,"endTime":2450.093,"body":"other than just the training dollars."},{"startTime":2450.143,"endTime":2452.953,"body":"Oh boy, like we didn't even"},{"startTime":2450.143,"endTime":2452.953,"body":"touch on like companies that"},{"startTime":2452.953,"endTime":2454.323,"body":"don't train anyone like that."},{"startTime":2454.473,"endTime":2455.413,"body":"There's a lot of them out there."},{"startTime":2455.483,"endTime":2459.733,"body":"I was gonna say, I was gonna say, aka the"},{"startTime":2455.483,"endTime":2459.733,"body":"majority of companies that are out there."},{"startTime":2459.773,"endTime":2460.143,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2460.443,"endTime":2463.833,"body":"Yeah, training is seen as"},{"startTime":2460.443,"endTime":2463.833,"body":"one of those luxuries now."},{"startTime":2463.843,"endTime":2465.883,"body":"They say, well, we're"},{"startTime":2463.843,"endTime":2465.883,"body":"hiring you in the role of."},{"startTime":2465.933,"endTime":2466.163,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2466.313,"endTime":2471.103,"body":"We expect you to come to the table with"},{"startTime":2466.313,"endTime":2471.103,"body":"all the training, all the experience, etc."},{"startTime":2471.103,"endTime":2472.403,"body":"And no, we're not going to train you."},{"startTime":2472.673,"endTime":2472.883,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2472.883,"endTime":2473.453,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2473.453,"endTime":2473.693,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2473.693,"endTime":2476.353,"body":"So I like there, there was a lot of"},{"startTime":2473.693,"endTime":2476.353,"body":"directions we could have gone with this."},{"startTime":2476.353,"endTime":2478.313,"body":"But I guess we just,"},{"startTime":2476.353,"endTime":2478.313,"body":"there's just not the time."},{"startTime":2478.343,"endTime":2481.183,"body":"I mean, unless we want to spend"},{"startTime":2478.343,"endTime":2481.183,"body":"two more hours digging into,"},{"startTime":2481.213,"endTime":2482.403,"body":"I mean, really dig into like."},{"startTime":2482.553,"endTime":2485.073,"body":"Is, is, are some of these"},{"startTime":2482.553,"endTime":2485.073,"body":"concepts going to work in the"},{"startTime":2485.093,"endTime":2486.993,"body":"culture of corporate America?"},{"startTime":2487.033,"endTime":2487.343,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2487.493,"endTime":2492.033,"body":"You know, I have a lot of reservations"},{"startTime":2487.493,"endTime":2492.033,"body":"about that, but also I'm trying to"},{"startTime":2492.033,"endTime":2493.223,"body":"make this as concise as possible."},{"startTime":2493.543,"endTime":2494.023,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2494.283,"endTime":2494.603,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2494.603,"endTime":2497.763,"body":"I mean, this has the risk of expanding"},{"startTime":2494.603,"endTime":2497.763,"body":"out into other roles as well."},{"startTime":2497.913,"endTime":2500.283,"body":"Like I said, the easy one"},{"startTime":2497.913,"endTime":2500.283,"body":"is we don't need testers."},{"startTime":2500.283,"endTime":2501.233,"body":"Developers write code."},{"startTime":2501.233,"endTime":2502.363,"body":"They can test, right?"},{"startTime":2502.603,"endTime":2502.743,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2502.793,"endTime":2504.708,"body":"So get rid of your QA people."},{"startTime":2504.708,"endTime":2505.508,"body":"You don't need testers."},{"startTime":2505.658,"endTime":2506.958,"body":"And you can go down the path."},{"startTime":2507.128,"endTime":2509.398,"body":"Developers can deploy,"},{"startTime":2507.128,"endTime":2509.398,"body":"which I like that idea."},{"startTime":2509.598,"endTime":2511.068,"body":"In theory, at least."},{"startTime":2511.298,"endTime":2515.228,"body":"But in practice, in large organizations,"},{"startTime":2511.298,"endTime":2515.228,"body":"you have all these layers in the middle."},{"startTime":2515.378,"endTime":2516.858,"body":"Just because they're matrixed, etc."},{"startTime":2516.858,"endTime":2518.758,"body":"And DevOps people do the deployment."},{"startTime":2519.068,"endTime":2520.288,"body":"We don't need those DevOps people."},{"startTime":2520.328,"endTime":2521.508,"body":"Let the developers deploy."},{"startTime":2521.598,"endTime":2523.708,"body":"I'm surprised we didn't get to,"},{"startTime":2521.598,"endTime":2523.708,"body":"we don't need middle managers."},{"startTime":2523.708,"endTime":2525.298,"body":"We don't need middle managers."},{"startTime":2525.298,"endTime":2527.878,"body":"All these people at the article"},{"startTime":2525.298,"endTime":2527.878,"body":"lobbies, they should be the ones."},{"startTime":2528.028,"endTime":2529.098,"body":"We don't need any of those people."},{"startTime":2529.248,"endTime":2530.388,"body":"Well, I mentioned that earlier."},{"startTime":2530.388,"endTime":2533.778,"body":"Why don't, why don't we empower our"},{"startTime":2530.388,"endTime":2533.778,"body":"scrum masters to be middle managers?"},{"startTime":2533.928,"endTime":2536.218,"body":"To do some of the roles that"},{"startTime":2533.928,"endTime":2536.218,"body":"the middle manager is doing."},{"startTime":2536.218,"endTime":2538.858,"body":"Maybe you don't necessarily get"},{"startTime":2536.218,"endTime":2538.858,"body":"rid of all middle managers keep"},{"startTime":2538.858,"endTime":2540.358,"body":"a few around that appease you."},{"startTime":2540.588,"endTime":2542.858,"body":"No, I mean, you'll"},{"startTime":2540.588,"endTime":2542.858,"body":"keep, you'll keep leads."},{"startTime":2543.008,"endTime":2546.358,"body":"And you'll keep department heads"},{"startTime":2543.008,"endTime":2546.358,"body":"probably for, for, for that For a while."},{"startTime":2546.358,"endTime":2550.558,"body":"For that, for that matrix of I need people"},{"startTime":2546.358,"endTime":2550.558,"body":"that are the, the, the People managers."},{"startTime":2550.798,"endTime":2553.458,"body":"Like the, the first among"},{"startTime":2550.798,"endTime":2553.458,"body":"equals kind of person."},{"startTime":2553.608,"endTime":2555.038,"body":"What, what does Amazon call them?"},{"startTime":2555.038,"endTime":2555.668,"body":"Bar raisers?"},{"startTime":2555.668,"endTime":2556.988,"body":"I can't remember what Google calls them."},{"startTime":2557.138,"endTime":2560.228,"body":"Anyway, they're, they're the people"},{"startTime":2557.138,"endTime":2560.228,"body":"that I trust to hire a good QA"},{"startTime":2560.228,"endTime":2562.438,"body":"person or a good developer or good,"},{"startTime":2560.228,"endTime":2562.438,"body":"whatever, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2562.438,"endTime":2564.658,"body":"That, that kind of, that kind of a thing."},{"startTime":2564.808,"endTime":2566.368,"body":"But leads makes a lot of sense."},{"startTime":2566.368,"endTime":2569.198,"body":"I mean, you can have, you're going"},{"startTime":2566.368,"endTime":2569.198,"body":"to have a team of leads across all"},{"startTime":2569.198,"endTime":2572.058,"body":"of your programs and all of your"},{"startTime":2569.198,"endTime":2572.058,"body":"teams inside of those programs."},{"startTime":2572.178,"endTime":2572.908,"body":"That makes a lot of sense."},{"startTime":2573.238,"endTime":2574.398,"body":"You're going to have business heads."},{"startTime":2574.548,"endTime":2578.128,"body":"You know yeah, but so I'm but again,"},{"startTime":2574.548,"endTime":2578.128,"body":"I think that's a different article."},{"startTime":2578.178,"endTime":2579.868,"body":"Yeah, different podcasts for sure"},{"startTime":2580.108,"endTime":2580.928,"body":"So, all right."},{"startTime":2580.928,"endTime":2581.748,"body":"Well, this was fun."},{"startTime":2581.778,"endTime":2584.918,"body":"Hopefully we didn't come off negative"},{"startTime":2581.778,"endTime":2584.918,"body":"I I think we tried to steer away"},{"startTime":2584.918,"endTime":2586.198,"body":"from being negative on the article"},{"startTime":2586.198,"endTime":2590.048,"body":"cool Well, hopefully those of you that are"},{"startTime":2586.198,"endTime":2590.048,"body":"still with us, enjoyed the discussion let"},{"startTime":2590.048,"endTime":2594.711,"body":"us know what what else you'd like us to"},{"startTime":2590.048,"endTime":2594.711,"body":"tackle and don't forget like and subscribe"}]}