{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.15,"endTime":3.239,"body":"Efficiency is a big one in the"},{"startTime":0.15,"endTime":3.239,"body":"software development space."},{"startTime":3.4,"endTime":6.83,"body":"A lot of people try to be as"},{"startTime":3.4,"endTime":6.83,"body":"quote, efficient as possible."},{"startTime":7.06,"endTime":11.22,"body":"And there's a lot of tropey arguments"},{"startTime":7.06,"endTime":11.22,"body":"about effectiveness that we're not"},{"startTime":11.22,"endTime":12.42,"body":"going to delve into on this podcast."},{"startTime":12.45,"endTime":15.78,"body":"we want to keep it strictly a rant"},{"startTime":12.45,"endTime":15.78,"body":"cast that we haven't had in a while."},{"startTime":16.0,"endTime":17.12,"body":"I love a rant cast."},{"startTime":17.13,"endTime":19.04,"body":"Talk about efficiency."},{"startTime":19.2,"endTime":22.81,"body":"Times that you've seen efficiency"},{"startTime":19.2,"endTime":22.81,"body":"weaponized in software development teams."},{"startTime":23.01,"endTime":28.159,"body":"So efficiency is usually a a time"},{"startTime":23.01,"endTime":28.159,"body":"dimension based attribute, right?"},{"startTime":28.229,"endTime":32.379,"body":"Do things quicker, faster, more"},{"startTime":28.229,"endTime":32.379,"body":"in a given amount of time, etc."},{"startTime":32.529,"endTime":36.569,"body":"So this will be relevant for you if you've"},{"startTime":32.529,"endTime":36.569,"body":"ever had those things thrust upon you."},{"startTime":36.619,"endTime":37.759,"body":"So let's, let's get into this."},{"startTime":37.769,"endTime":40.089,"body":"A lot of what we're about to"},{"startTime":37.769,"endTime":40.089,"body":"discuss, I think, come at you,"},{"startTime":40.239,"endTime":41.499,"body":"come at you, come at me, bro."},{"startTime":41.649,"endTime":44.739,"body":"I think a lot of these things that"},{"startTime":41.649,"endTime":44.739,"body":"we're about to discuss are implemented"},{"startTime":44.769,"endTime":47.339,"body":"under the banner of streamlining."},{"startTime":47.609,"endTime":49.069,"body":"We're just streamlining."},{"startTime":49.219,"endTime":52.209,"body":"We need all the teams Om to be on"},{"startTime":49.219,"endTime":52.209,"body":"the same cadence across the entire"},{"startTime":52.209,"endTime":55.439,"body":"program, and we need all the teams"},{"startTime":52.209,"endTime":55.439,"body":"to write their stories the same way."},{"startTime":55.439,"endTime":59.229,"body":"And we need all the teams to do like"},{"startTime":55.439,"endTime":59.229,"body":"demands basically from outside the teams."},{"startTime":59.549,"endTime":63.199,"body":"Yeah, I've come across two other terms"},{"startTime":59.549,"endTime":63.199,"body":"that basically say the same thing, right?"},{"startTime":63.499,"endTime":65.079,"body":"One is optimizing."},{"startTime":65.279,"endTime":66.439,"body":"Oh, yeah, right, right."},{"startTime":66.489,"endTime":70.099,"body":"And then the other one, which really,"},{"startTime":66.489,"endTime":70.099,"body":"really irks me is Standardizing."},{"startTime":70.149,"endTime":73.009,"body":"We gotta make sure all the teams"},{"startTime":70.149,"endTime":73.009,"body":"write their stories the same way."},{"startTime":73.349,"endTime":75.089,"body":"All the teams do this, do that, do that."},{"startTime":75.119,"endTime":77.559,"body":"All the teams have the same"},{"startTime":75.119,"endTime":77.559,"body":"amount of water intake per day."},{"startTime":77.709,"endTime":79.439,"body":"It's like, come on."},{"startTime":79.469,"endTime":79.659,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":79.809,"endTime":80.169,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":80.399,"endTime":81.579,"body":"So yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":81.589,"endTime":82.839,"body":"We've all seen this, I'm sure."},{"startTime":82.949,"endTime":83.209,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":83.379,"endTime":87.409,"body":"So I, I guess now's the time of"},{"startTime":83.379,"endTime":87.409,"body":"the podcast to introduce that deals"},{"startTime":87.409,"endTime":90.069,"body":"with , team and business agility"},{"startTime":87.409,"endTime":90.069,"body":"and ideal of product management."},{"startTime":90.319,"endTime":93.429,"body":"And I will tell you right now, the,"},{"startTime":90.319,"endTime":93.429,"body":"if you want to kill creativity in"},{"startTime":93.429,"endTime":95.659,"body":"your company, this standardization."},{"startTime":95.809,"endTime":98.199,"body":"That's the way to do it"},{"startTime":95.809,"endTime":98.199,"body":"on both sides, both sides."},{"startTime":98.239,"endTime":99.479,"body":"Yes, absolutely."},{"startTime":99.629,"endTime":103.329,"body":"Yeah, people forget that people"},{"startTime":99.629,"endTime":103.329,"body":"are live, organic human beings."},{"startTime":103.329,"endTime":107.169,"body":"We're not robots and efficiency"},{"startTime":103.329,"endTime":107.169,"body":"really is a way to make sure that"},{"startTime":107.169,"endTime":111.659,"body":"we're leveling the, the measures"},{"startTime":107.169,"endTime":111.659,"body":"right across all team members."},{"startTime":111.689,"endTime":115.389,"body":"If, even if it's one team, right, if it's"},{"startTime":111.689,"endTime":115.389,"body":"multiple teams, we're saying every team"},{"startTime":115.389,"endTime":117.669,"body":"is the same, every cog is the same size."},{"startTime":117.819,"endTime":121.579,"body":"In our machine, so they have the same"},{"startTime":117.819,"endTime":121.579,"body":"number of revolutions per minute."},{"startTime":121.729,"endTime":125.279,"body":"And if we just keep cranking"},{"startTime":121.729,"endTime":125.279,"body":"harder, we'll just get more output."},{"startTime":125.429,"endTime":126.849,"body":"In product, I look at it this way."},{"startTime":126.919,"endTime":127.809,"body":"I have a road map."},{"startTime":127.959,"endTime":128.299,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":128.379,"endTime":131.289,"body":"The road map says I'm going to drive"},{"startTime":128.379,"endTime":131.289,"body":"from Tampa, Florida to Chicago."},{"startTime":131.439,"endTime":131.709,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":131.979,"endTime":132.669,"body":"Chi Chicago."},{"startTime":132.819,"endTime":133.139,"body":"Chicago!"},{"startTime":133.359,"endTime":133.629,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":133.729,"endTime":134.029,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":134.169,"endTime":135.389,"body":"Deep dish pizza place."},{"startTime":135.709,"endTime":140.949,"body":"I'm, I'm I'm leaving it up to the"},{"startTime":135.709,"endTime":140.949,"body":"driver of the cars, multiple cars, to"},{"startTime":140.949,"endTime":142.619,"body":"get me, to get all the cars to Chicago."},{"startTime":142.619,"endTime":145.629,"body":"The goal is, I want all"},{"startTime":142.619,"endTime":145.629,"body":"the cars to get to Chicago."},{"startTime":145.859,"endTime":146.509,"body":"That's my goal."},{"startTime":146.659,"endTime":149.569,"body":"So I, the product manager,"},{"startTime":146.659,"endTime":149.569,"body":"have given you a road map."},{"startTime":149.769,"endTime":152.599,"body":"And I'm going to tell you exactly"},{"startTime":149.769,"endTime":152.599,"body":"what roads you have to drive on and"},{"startTime":152.599,"endTime":153.859,"body":"at what speed you have to drive."},{"startTime":154.049,"endTime":157.219,"body":"That's how you want to have a great"},{"startTime":154.049,"endTime":157.219,"body":"trip and you want to stop and get"},{"startTime":157.289,"endTime":161.139,"body":"pizza in certain cities or go party"},{"startTime":157.289,"endTime":161.139,"body":"in certain cities or go, you know"},{"startTime":161.139,"endTime":163.079,"body":"what I mean, stop in Nashville"},{"startTime":161.139,"endTime":163.079,"body":"for a couple of days or whatever."},{"startTime":163.129,"endTime":166.809,"body":"I'm not micromanaging you on these"},{"startTime":163.129,"endTime":166.809,"body":"details, but if every single one of my"},{"startTime":166.809,"endTime":171.469,"body":"car has got to take the exact same trip"},{"startTime":166.809,"endTime":171.469,"body":"and stop at the exact same stops and down"},{"startTime":171.469,"endTime":173.779,"body":"to the detail to the hour to the speed."},{"startTime":173.929,"endTime":178.199,"body":"that can't be fun for anybody in"},{"startTime":173.929,"endTime":178.199,"body":"those cars, or any of those drivers."},{"startTime":178.229,"endTime":181.689,"body":"It's also unrealistic, because"},{"startTime":178.229,"endTime":181.689,"body":"people are people, so some people are"},{"startTime":181.689,"endTime":185.209,"body":"gonna get relaxed in their driving,"},{"startTime":181.689,"endTime":185.209,"body":"and some people will be anxious,"},{"startTime":185.229,"endTime":187.009,"body":"and yeah, so it just doesn't work."},{"startTime":187.019,"endTime":187.789,"body":"It really doesn't work."},{"startTime":187.859,"endTime":190.939,"body":"And also, when all those drivers"},{"startTime":187.859,"endTime":190.939,"body":"get to their destination, what will"},{"startTime":190.939,"endTime":192.749,"body":"they have discovered along the way?"},{"startTime":192.899,"endTime":194.729,"body":"That will benefit me, right?"},{"startTime":194.759,"endTime":198.069,"body":"The, the original person who's paying for"},{"startTime":194.759,"endTime":198.069,"body":"the trip, sponsoring the trip and whatnot."},{"startTime":198.369,"endTime":201.369,"body":"They will have discovered that this"},{"startTime":198.369,"endTime":201.369,"body":"way of working is really not for them."},{"startTime":201.519,"endTime":202.169,"body":"So they quit."},{"startTime":202.319,"endTime":203.579,"body":"And not so quietly either."},{"startTime":203.609,"endTime":206.479,"body":"Absolutely being micromanaged,"},{"startTime":203.609,"endTime":206.479,"body":"but, I'm telling you the goal."},{"startTime":206.629,"endTime":208.019,"body":"I'm telling you where I want you to be."},{"startTime":208.169,"endTime":208.429,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":208.469,"endTime":210.609,"body":"I could even tell you by certain dates."},{"startTime":210.759,"endTime":212.979,"body":"Hey, I want you to be"},{"startTime":210.759,"endTime":212.979,"body":"in Memphis on this date."},{"startTime":213.129,"endTime":213.419,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":213.479,"endTime":214.759,"body":"Like, doing milestones."},{"startTime":214.789,"endTime":218.624,"body":"Going back to our other podcast where"},{"startTime":214.789,"endTime":218.624,"body":"we said, Look, deadlines in Agile."},{"startTime":218.774,"endTime":219.424,"body":"Completely."},{"startTime":219.424,"endTime":219.854,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":220.054,"endTime":220.674,"body":"Completely."},{"startTime":220.674,"endTime":221.024,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":221.174,"endTime":223.824,"body":", there are still things that you're"},{"startTime":221.174,"endTime":223.824,"body":"leaving up to the team, the how"},{"startTime":223.834,"endTime":224.804,"body":"you're leaving up to the team."},{"startTime":225.004,"endTime":228.244,"body":"And when you're talking about"},{"startTime":225.004,"endTime":228.244,"body":"standardization, usually in my experience,"},{"startTime":228.394,"endTime":233.724,"body":"the weaponization that happens is you're"},{"startTime":228.394,"endTime":233.724,"body":"using the banner of standardization To"},{"startTime":233.754,"endTime":236.134,"body":"cover for air cover for micromanagement."},{"startTime":236.284,"endTime":237.494,"body":"Yes and right."},{"startTime":237.724,"endTime":238.804,"body":"Yeah, absolutely agree."},{"startTime":238.914,"endTime":241.924,"body":"But also you're now comparing teams."},{"startTime":242.074,"endTime":244.064,"body":"If it's one team, you're"},{"startTime":242.074,"endTime":244.064,"body":"comparing team members."},{"startTime":244.104,"endTime":246.594,"body":"You're comparing basically"},{"startTime":244.104,"endTime":246.594,"body":"when you're talking about this."},{"startTime":246.914,"endTime":250.514,"body":"So you're saying, well, team A does"},{"startTime":246.914,"endTime":250.514,"body":"it this way and team B does it the"},{"startTime":250.514,"endTime":254.734,"body":"same way because we've standardized"},{"startTime":250.514,"endTime":254.734,"body":"and team A is faster than team B."},{"startTime":254.774,"endTime":255.404,"body":"Why is that?"},{"startTime":255.554,"endTime":256.654,"body":"Team B, buckle up."},{"startTime":256.959,"endTime":257.309,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":257.459,"endTime":257.959,"body":"Come on."},{"startTime":258.109,"endTime":258.379,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":258.429,"endTime":262.749,"body":"We'll forget the fact that we are"},{"startTime":258.429,"endTime":262.749,"body":"individual, organic human beings"},{"startTime":262.749,"endTime":264.139,"body":"and we work in different ways."},{"startTime":264.349,"endTime":264.649,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":264.729,"endTime":264.959,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":265.109,"endTime":265.749,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":265.749,"endTime":268.399,"body":"Weaponizing the, the, the, the efficiency."},{"startTime":268.549,"endTime":273.589,"body":"Angle, which is the title of this"},{"startTime":268.549,"endTime":273.589,"body":"podcast, is a real phenomenon, and I'm"},{"startTime":273.589,"endTime":276.929,"body":"pretty sure everybody has experienced"},{"startTime":273.589,"endTime":276.929,"body":"this, whether they realize it or not."},{"startTime":277.079,"endTime":278.439,"body":"Let's go straight to the"},{"startTime":277.079,"endTime":278.439,"body":"heart of the podcast."},{"startTime":278.439,"endTime":283.559,"body":"So, on these teams, where efficiency has"},{"startTime":278.439,"endTime":283.559,"body":"been weaponized, you have less trust."},{"startTime":283.709,"endTime":287.699,"body":"Like I had a manager one time who with"},{"startTime":283.709,"endTime":287.699,"body":"a straight face, with a straight face"},{"startTime":288.049,"endTime":293.769,"body":"told me that fear should be a, a, a, a"},{"startTime":288.049,"endTime":293.769,"body":"tool in management that you exercise."},{"startTime":293.919,"endTime":297.189,"body":"Like basically the employee should"},{"startTime":293.919,"endTime":297.189,"body":"fear the manager at least a certain"},{"startTime":297.189,"endTime":301.809,"body":"amount because you have to wield that"},{"startTime":297.189,"endTime":301.809,"body":"tool to, to get things done or to,"},{"startTime":301.869,"endTime":303.419,"body":"to bring people in line or whatever."},{"startTime":303.619,"endTime":304.909,"body":"And they were very serious about it."},{"startTime":304.929,"endTime":306.169,"body":"They, it wasn't a joke."},{"startTime":306.319,"endTime":307.739,"body":"You know, I bring it up here as a joke."},{"startTime":307.889,"endTime":309.249,"body":"But, it wasn't a joke to them."},{"startTime":309.319,"endTime":311.339,"body":"And, and, I I didn't even really engage."},{"startTime":311.349,"endTime":314.039,"body":"Cause I was like, well, this is,"},{"startTime":311.349,"endTime":314.039,"body":"I'm, I'm basically fundamentally,"},{"startTime":314.219,"endTime":315.859,"body":"like reverse of your opinion."},{"startTime":315.859,"endTime":318.499,"body":"So, I, I really don't see us"},{"startTime":315.859,"endTime":318.499,"body":"seeing a middle ground on this one."},{"startTime":318.729,"endTime":321.849,"body":"Wait, it clearly tells me that,"},{"startTime":318.729,"endTime":321.849,"body":"that they have an inability."},{"startTime":321.974,"endTime":325.724,"body":"to motivate the teams and they're using"},{"startTime":321.974,"endTime":325.724,"body":"the stick more than the carrot, right?"},{"startTime":325.774,"endTime":326.434,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":326.584,"endTime":327.424,"body":"But that's what they needed."},{"startTime":327.424,"endTime":330.574,"body":"They needed when they needed a deadline"},{"startTime":327.424,"endTime":330.574,"body":"rolled out and they needed the team"},{"startTime":330.574,"endTime":332.354,"body":"not to argue against it or whatever."},{"startTime":332.354,"endTime":335.064,"body":"They needed to wield this"},{"startTime":332.354,"endTime":335.064,"body":"this positional authority."},{"startTime":335.214,"endTime":337.574,"body":"You know, To get what they needed"},{"startTime":335.214,"endTime":337.574,"body":"done, and they needed to wheel"},{"startTime":337.574,"endTime":340.474,"body":"out that fear, that tactic, they"},{"startTime":337.574,"endTime":340.474,"body":"needed to employ that tactic."},{"startTime":340.624,"endTime":344.934,"body":"And that is just, without a focus"},{"startTime":340.624,"endTime":344.934,"body":"on efficiency, I don't know if"},{"startTime":344.934,"endTime":346.394,"body":"that would have been effective."},{"startTime":346.654,"endTime":350.154,"body":"I don't know if that tactic would"},{"startTime":346.654,"endTime":350.154,"body":"have really worked I think the team"},{"startTime":350.284,"endTime":353.554,"body":"would have driven that particular"},{"startTime":350.284,"endTime":353.554,"body":"manager just absolutely bananas."},{"startTime":353.704,"endTime":356.774,"body":"If they had said Oh, why do you,"},{"startTime":353.704,"endTime":356.774,"body":"why do we need to buy this deadline?"},{"startTime":356.924,"endTime":358.834,"body":"What happens when we don't"},{"startTime":356.924,"endTime":358.834,"body":"hit it by that deadline?"},{"startTime":358.864,"endTime":361.764,"body":"And like, just try to engage like"},{"startTime":358.864,"endTime":361.764,"body":"normal dialogue, like normal adults"},{"startTime":361.914,"endTime":363.244,"body":"would engage in at a business."},{"startTime":363.244,"endTime":366.044,"body":"Like, oh, no, why, why that deadline?"},{"startTime":366.194,"endTime":368.444,"body":"Do you think maybe we can"},{"startTime":366.194,"endTime":368.444,"body":"talk to the customer about"},{"startTime":368.444,"endTime":369.484,"body":"the deadline that you've set?"},{"startTime":369.544,"endTime":372.144,"body":"And what makes you think that that"},{"startTime":369.544,"endTime":372.144,"body":"is the, the, the, the feature that"},{"startTime":372.144,"endTime":373.634,"body":"we need to deliver by that deadline?"},{"startTime":373.634,"endTime":376.114,"body":"Can we kind of talk to the customer"},{"startTime":373.634,"endTime":376.114,"body":"to try to figure out maybe we"},{"startTime":376.114,"endTime":377.374,"body":"can decompose this a little bit?"},{"startTime":377.374,"endTime":380.364,"body":"Like That, that, that particular"},{"startTime":377.374,"endTime":380.364,"body":"individual would have, they"},{"startTime":380.364,"endTime":381.534,"body":"would have gone nuclear."},{"startTime":381.534,"endTime":382.534,"body":"They would have imploded."},{"startTime":382.544,"endTime":382.784,"body":"Yeah, they are."},{"startTime":382.794,"endTime":383.484,"body":"No, I agree."},{"startTime":383.494,"endTime":385.564,"body":"I, I think that's a real"},{"startTime":383.494,"endTime":385.564,"body":"conversation though, right?"},{"startTime":385.724,"endTime":387.434,"body":"We can make the deadline bucked."},{"startTime":387.514,"endTime":387.954,"body":"Right, yeah."},{"startTime":387.954,"endTime":388.224,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":388.314,"endTime":388.454,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":388.454,"endTime":389.924,"body":"Can we flex on the scope a little?"},{"startTime":390.024,"endTime":393.364,"body":"Or, we can make the deadline But they're"},{"startTime":390.024,"endTime":393.364,"body":"not going to like what they see because"},{"startTime":393.364,"endTime":395.544,"body":"the quality will be subpar, right?"},{"startTime":395.554,"endTime":397.684,"body":"So those are real conversations to have."},{"startTime":397.774,"endTime":402.884,"body":"But if a person has that in their mindset"},{"startTime":397.774,"endTime":402.884,"body":"that they've either they or someone has"},{"startTime":403.134,"endTime":407.654,"body":"delivered to the customer an expectation"},{"startTime":403.134,"endTime":407.654,"body":"of a certain deliverable, a certain"},{"startTime":407.654,"endTime":411.704,"body":"date, and they're going to just simply"},{"startTime":407.654,"endTime":411.704,"body":"just do the task mastering, right?"},{"startTime":411.854,"endTime":413.454,"body":"Do this, do this, do this, do this."},{"startTime":413.604,"endTime":416.364,"body":"This is not going to work because it"},{"startTime":413.604,"endTime":416.364,"body":"will demotivate your team members."},{"startTime":416.494,"endTime":419.124,"body":"They may work really hard"},{"startTime":416.494,"endTime":419.124,"body":"to pull out that deadline."},{"startTime":419.274,"endTime":422.914,"body":"And let's just say, if they're lucky,"},{"startTime":419.274,"endTime":422.914,"body":"the quality is good, everything's good."},{"startTime":423.064,"endTime":424.404,"body":"Yes, the customer loved it."},{"startTime":424.554,"endTime":426.604,"body":"Unfortunately, that"},{"startTime":424.554,"endTime":426.604,"body":"begets the same behavior."},{"startTime":426.754,"endTime":430.464,"body":"The next time, the customer is going to"},{"startTime":426.754,"endTime":430.464,"body":"basically, not the customer, sorry, the"},{"startTime":430.504,"endTime":433.954,"body":"manager is going to demand that because"},{"startTime":430.504,"endTime":433.954,"body":"they are a micromanager at this stage."},{"startTime":434.104,"endTime":435.044,"body":"They're going to demand that."},{"startTime":435.114,"endTime":435.854,"body":"Do this again."},{"startTime":436.054,"endTime":437.034,"body":"And out comes the whip."},{"startTime":437.344,"endTime":438.374,"body":"And now what happens?"},{"startTime":438.654,"endTime":441.684,"body":"Suddenly, you're going to find some"},{"startTime":438.654,"endTime":441.684,"body":"team members say, Yeah, I forgot,"},{"startTime":441.694,"endTime":443.604,"body":"but I gotta take a day off here."},{"startTime":443.924,"endTime":444.334,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":444.494,"endTime":445.894,"body":"People are going to start doing that."},{"startTime":445.974,"endTime":447.054,"body":"And, because they're human."},{"startTime":447.264,"endTime":450.384,"body":"If you don't treat human beings as human"},{"startTime":447.264,"endTime":450.384,"body":"beings, you're not going to get the"},{"startTime":450.384,"endTime":451.904,"body":"result you're looking for, long term."},{"startTime":452.054,"endTime":453.614,"body":"Or even medium term, honestly."},{"startTime":453.764,"endTime":459.724,"body":"Well, let's talk about what's required to"},{"startTime":453.764,"endTime":459.724,"body":"implement these efficiency gains because"},{"startTime":459.834,"endTime":465.684,"body":"in every time I've seen this lobbied for"},{"startTime":459.834,"endTime":465.684,"body":"and put into action, what is required"},{"startTime":465.764,"endTime":471.314,"body":"is measuring the, the time it takes to"},{"startTime":465.764,"endTime":471.314,"body":"do things, the effort it takes to do"},{"startTime":471.314,"endTime":476.514,"body":"things in the pursuit of a utilization"},{"startTime":471.314,"endTime":476.514,"body":"metric being applied to the teams."},{"startTime":476.834,"endTime":480.744,"body":"So and, and, I would add,"},{"startTime":476.834,"endTime":480.744,"body":"and, and, not yes, and."},{"startTime":480.744,"endTime":482.224,"body":"Oh, double and, double and, double and."},{"startTime":482.224,"endTime":482.634,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":482.854,"endTime":486.294,"body":"And what ends up happening"},{"startTime":482.854,"endTime":486.294,"body":"is, estimation in hours."},{"startTime":486.444,"endTime":490.314,"body":"Estimation in hours, tracking the"},{"startTime":486.444,"endTime":490.314,"body":"original estimate that you gave."},{"startTime":490.464,"endTime":494.644,"body":"At estimate time and then tracking"},{"startTime":490.464,"endTime":494.644,"body":"your time with the item that"},{"startTime":494.644,"endTime":497.584,"body":"you're implementing to track how"},{"startTime":494.644,"endTime":497.584,"body":"much time goes into implement."},{"startTime":497.584,"endTime":503.204,"body":"So, so like an estimate, but then an"},{"startTime":497.584,"endTime":503.204,"body":"actual along with it and I would also"},{"startTime":503.204,"endTime":507.354,"body":"point out in this, in this environment,"},{"startTime":503.204,"endTime":507.354,"body":"peer programming is not a thing."},{"startTime":507.434,"endTime":508.384,"body":"It is not a thing."},{"startTime":508.464,"endTime":511.164,"body":"No, because they could be doing"},{"startTime":508.464,"endTime":511.164,"body":"twice as much work at the same time."},{"startTime":511.164,"endTime":514.224,"body":"So, so you're, so you're measuring"},{"startTime":511.164,"endTime":514.224,"body":"utilization of a developer,"},{"startTime":514.374,"endTime":516.464,"body":"by the way, knowing that."},{"startTime":516.614,"endTime":521.154,"body":"Development is a discipline"},{"startTime":516.614,"endTime":521.154,"body":"where some people are five"},{"startTime":521.154,"endTime":523.414,"body":"times faster than other people."},{"startTime":523.564,"endTime":524.754,"body":"That's just the way it is."},{"startTime":524.824,"endTime":525.754,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":525.754,"endTime":527.684,"body":"You know, it's, it's just like sports."},{"startTime":527.694,"endTime":530.044,"body":"Some people are just"},{"startTime":527.694,"endTime":530.044,"body":"naturally faster than others."},{"startTime":530.194,"endTime":531.144,"body":"That's just the way it is."},{"startTime":531.294,"endTime":535.584,"body":"But now your metrics don't"},{"startTime":531.294,"endTime":535.584,"body":"reward people that are cracking"},{"startTime":535.584,"endTime":537.604,"body":"out runs when they're at bat."},{"startTime":537.754,"endTime":540.634,"body":"Your metrics only reward"},{"startTime":537.754,"endTime":540.634,"body":"people for hitting home runs."},{"startTime":540.744,"endTime":541.194,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":541.344,"endTime":543.894,"body":"Yeah, that's a good analogy"},{"startTime":541.344,"endTime":543.894,"body":"actually Absolutely."},{"startTime":544.134,"endTime":548.804,"body":"So so, you know what happens in that"},{"startTime":544.134,"endTime":548.804,"body":"scenario is The teams figure out what's"},{"startTime":548.804,"endTime":551.064,"body":"going on They know what's going on, right?"},{"startTime":551.174,"endTime":553.384,"body":"It's painful for them,"},{"startTime":551.174,"endTime":553.384,"body":"but they figure it out."},{"startTime":553.444,"endTime":553.714,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":553.804,"endTime":556.274,"body":"And they will gamify this whole thing."},{"startTime":556.384,"endTime":561.934,"body":"They will gamify it by estimating things"},{"startTime":556.384,"endTime":561.934,"body":"in hours that are artificially inflated."},{"startTime":562.054,"endTime":562.294,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":562.304,"endTime":562.594,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":562.604,"endTime":565.684,"body":"So they'll just say, well, I know this"},{"startTime":562.604,"endTime":565.684,"body":"is going to take me two hours, but"},{"startTime":565.684,"endTime":567.234,"body":"I'm going to say four just in case."},{"startTime":567.384,"endTime":570.124,"body":"And if I get it done in two,"},{"startTime":567.384,"endTime":570.124,"body":"that's fine, because I committed"},{"startTime":570.124,"endTime":572.144,"body":"for four anyway, so I'm good."},{"startTime":572.294,"endTime":573.234,"body":"That's what's going to happen."},{"startTime":573.254,"endTime":577.664,"body":"So the optics look In the optical"},{"startTime":573.254,"endTime":577.664,"body":"world, they look aberrant."},{"startTime":577.874,"endTime":579.744,"body":"They, they will, they will try to do that."},{"startTime":579.754,"endTime":582.804,"body":"But again, the teams that I've been"},{"startTime":579.754,"endTime":582.804,"body":"on that do this kind of, kind of"},{"startTime":582.804,"endTime":586.144,"body":"stuff they will have their director of"},{"startTime":582.804,"endTime":586.144,"body":"development or development manager or"},{"startTime":586.144,"endTime":589.154,"body":"whatever will come into the room when"},{"startTime":586.144,"endTime":589.154,"body":"they're doing estimates and basically"},{"startTime":589.154,"endTime":591.204,"body":"start undercutting, whatever you say."},{"startTime":591.424,"endTime":592.784,"body":"Oh, it'll take four"},{"startTime":591.424,"endTime":592.784,"body":"hours to get that done."},{"startTime":592.934,"endTime":594.024,"body":"Four hours?"},{"startTime":594.264,"endTime":594.954,"body":"Really?"},{"startTime":594.954,"endTime":595.814,"body":"It should only take one?"},{"startTime":595.984,"endTime":597.964,"body":"Oh, it'll only take me, blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":597.964,"endTime":602.064,"body":"I'm not even really bending the truth that"},{"startTime":597.964,"endTime":602.064,"body":"far to say I've seen that happen a lot."},{"startTime":602.214,"endTime":602.764,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":603.084,"endTime":603.764,"body":"Ditto, right?"},{"startTime":603.914,"endTime":604.304,"body":"Same."},{"startTime":604.314,"endTime":607.394,"body":"When, when in that situation, when"},{"startTime":604.314,"endTime":607.394,"body":"somebody says it should only take an"},{"startTime":607.394,"endTime":609.404,"body":"hour, I say, well that's great to hear."},{"startTime":609.504,"endTime":610.774,"body":"Maybe we'll just assign this to you."},{"startTime":610.884,"endTime":611.174,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":611.484,"endTime":611.764,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":611.794,"endTime":614.104,"body":"You can knock it out in an hour"},{"startTime":611.794,"endTime":614.104,"body":"if you think you know that's"},{"startTime":614.114,"endTime":615.504,"body":"what's going to take you."},{"startTime":615.504,"endTime":617.404,"body":"That's when they kind of go yeah right?"},{"startTime":617.624,"endTime":621.464,"body":"So, this kind of overt"},{"startTime":617.624,"endTime":621.464,"body":"pressure on the team."},{"startTime":621.614,"endTime":625.124,"body":"It's like keep blowing into a"},{"startTime":621.614,"endTime":625.124,"body":"balloon until it bursts, right?"},{"startTime":625.124,"endTime":628.214,"body":"It's not a good thing"},{"startTime":625.124,"endTime":628.214,"body":"because short term, yes."},{"startTime":628.474,"endTime":632.914,"body":"I'd far take the approach to get the"},{"startTime":628.474,"endTime":632.914,"body":"team together and say, Look, this"},{"startTime":632.944,"endTime":637.224,"body":"commitment has been made to the customer"},{"startTime":632.944,"endTime":637.224,"body":"for this deadline, for this date, right?"},{"startTime":637.374,"endTime":639.064,"body":"What do you think we can do by that date?"},{"startTime":639.214,"endTime":643.334,"body":"And be fully prepared if the"},{"startTime":639.214,"endTime":643.334,"body":"team says we absolutely cannot."},{"startTime":643.484,"endTime":647.184,"body":"Be fully prepared to say to the"},{"startTime":643.484,"endTime":647.184,"body":"team, Well, when can we make it?"},{"startTime":647.334,"endTime":647.664,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":647.894,"endTime":648.834,"body":"At the earliest."},{"startTime":648.984,"endTime":650.524,"body":"No compromise on quality."},{"startTime":650.674,"endTime":651.944,"body":"That's never an option."},{"startTime":651.994,"endTime":652.314,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":652.464,"endTime":655.614,"body":"And then go back to the stakeholders"},{"startTime":652.464,"endTime":655.614,"body":"or whoever made the promise to the"},{"startTime":655.614,"endTime":657.564,"body":"customer or the customer for that matter."},{"startTime":657.714,"endTime":657.994,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":658.024,"endTime":660.364,"body":"And say, look, this is"},{"startTime":658.024,"endTime":660.364,"body":"when we can deliver."},{"startTime":660.454,"endTime":662.584,"body":"If you want quality, this"},{"startTime":660.454,"endTime":662.584,"body":"is when we can do it."},{"startTime":662.734,"endTime":663.804,"body":"We know we told you this."},{"startTime":663.814,"endTime":664.924,"body":"Somebody told you this."},{"startTime":665.134,"endTime":666.124,"body":"That just cannot happen."},{"startTime":666.274,"endTime":667.674,"body":"Be brave enough to say that."},{"startTime":667.684,"endTime":670.334,"body":"Because you're saving"},{"startTime":667.684,"endTime":670.334,"body":"yourself so much aggravation."},{"startTime":670.604,"endTime":674.214,"body":"Doing it that way, then Delivering"},{"startTime":670.604,"endTime":674.214,"body":"something, subpar quality, it's"},{"startTime":674.214,"endTime":675.464,"body":"going to blow up in their face."},{"startTime":675.764,"endTime":676.954,"body":"You lose credibility."},{"startTime":677.104,"endTime":682.194,"body":"I mean, all of that is worth so much"},{"startTime":677.104,"endTime":682.194,"body":"more than just simply missing an"},{"startTime":682.204,"endTime":686.384,"body":"artificial, derived deadline from"},{"startTime":682.204,"endTime":686.384,"body":"someone's mind, basically, right?"},{"startTime":686.384,"endTime":687.724,"body":"Somebody made a promise."},{"startTime":687.754,"endTime":688.154,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":688.304,"endTime":688.844,"body":"We don't know."},{"startTime":688.994,"endTime":691.584,"body":"But work on the process too,"},{"startTime":688.994,"endTime":691.584,"body":"because they don't do that again."},{"startTime":691.919,"endTime":694.709,"body":"I mean, like you just"},{"startTime":691.919,"endTime":694.709,"body":"hit a really key point."},{"startTime":694.749,"endTime":697.809,"body":"If somebody made a promise somewhere the"},{"startTime":694.749,"endTime":697.809,"body":"bullet point I had written down for this"},{"startTime":697.809,"endTime":700.619,"body":"one is where do the ideas come from?"},{"startTime":700.619,"endTime":706.129,"body":"When, when you're, when you're fueling"},{"startTime":700.619,"endTime":706.129,"body":"this efficiency focused organization"},{"startTime":706.279,"endTime":710.159,"body":"oftentimes I will hear people say like,"},{"startTime":706.279,"endTime":710.159,"body":"Oh, we got to make sure we have quote"},{"startTime":710.199,"endTime":712.699,"body":"enough work for all the developers."},{"startTime":712.749,"endTime":713.729,"body":"In the feature factory."},{"startTime":713.949,"endTime":719.229,"body":"Basically, your product people become the"},{"startTime":713.949,"endTime":719.229,"body":"the feeders of work to your developers"},{"startTime":719.449,"endTime":721.859,"body":"and they say, Oh, no, we need to"},{"startTime":719.449,"endTime":721.859,"body":"have more backlog refinements because"},{"startTime":721.869,"endTime":723.839,"body":"we're going to run out of work, right?"},{"startTime":723.889,"endTime":725.989,"body":"Because again, they're not peering,"},{"startTime":723.889,"endTime":725.989,"body":"they're not doing exploratory"},{"startTime":725.989,"endTime":727.899,"body":"tests, they're not training, they're"},{"startTime":725.989,"endTime":727.899,"body":"not doing a million other things."},{"startTime":728.129,"endTime":731.019,"body":"So where do the ideas come from?"},{"startTime":731.139,"endTime":735.979,"body":"Usually they're dictated down to the team,"},{"startTime":731.139,"endTime":735.979,"body":"like do this, don't talk to customers,"},{"startTime":736.259,"endTime":737.629,"body":"when I used to be in consulting."},{"startTime":737.779,"endTime":741.999,"body":"I would tell, I would often at the"},{"startTime":737.779,"endTime":741.999,"body":"beginning of the contract, because a"},{"startTime":742.039,"endTime":746.419,"body":"customer in consulting, usually I was"},{"startTime":742.039,"endTime":746.419,"body":"at, at director or C level positions,"},{"startTime":746.419,"endTime":750.019,"body":"right, or one of the other, and they"},{"startTime":746.419,"endTime":750.019,"body":"would ask me Brian, how, how do we"},{"startTime":750.019,"endTime":754.229,"body":"know that your consulting is going to"},{"startTime":750.019,"endTime":754.229,"body":"be moving the needle, basically, and"},{"startTime":754.229,"endTime":758.269,"body":"I would tell them well, how many of"},{"startTime":754.229,"endTime":758.269,"body":"you, the features that you implement"},{"startTime":758.269,"endTime":762.249,"body":"from your teams, not from a leadership"},{"startTime":758.269,"endTime":762.249,"body":"person or a customer or whatever."},{"startTime":762.249,"endTime":765.229,"body":"They like your team's come up with a"},{"startTime":762.249,"endTime":765.229,"body":"cool idea, who are they vetting their"},{"startTime":765.229,"endTime":767.059,"body":"ideas with and how are they building?"},{"startTime":767.059,"endTime":771.269,"body":"Like how, what's the percentage of"},{"startTime":767.059,"endTime":771.269,"body":"ideas that come from outside your team?"},{"startTime":771.419,"endTime":774.099,"body":"Versus inside of your"},{"startTime":771.419,"endTime":774.099,"body":"teams to build things."},{"startTime":774.249,"endTime":778.999,"body":"And usually they will tell me like my,"},{"startTime":774.249,"endTime":778.999,"body":"my teams don't like other than like, Oh,"},{"startTime":778.999,"endTime":782.609,"body":"we got to upgrade this database or we"},{"startTime":778.999,"endTime":782.609,"body":"got to refactor this thing or whatever."},{"startTime":782.609,"endTime":786.559,"body":"Enablement, not like we could add"},{"startTime":782.609,"endTime":786.559,"body":"this new feature and we think really"},{"startTime":786.569,"endTime":788.489,"body":"be enthused about this new feature."},{"startTime":788.719,"endTime":789.009,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":789.169,"endTime":792.269,"body":"And I will tell the, I will"},{"startTime":789.169,"endTime":792.269,"body":"tell the executives, you will"},{"startTime":792.269,"endTime":793.419,"body":"know we're making progress."},{"startTime":793.569,"endTime":798.689,"body":"When I start reporting the percentage of"},{"startTime":793.569,"endTime":798.689,"body":"features that we implemented that were"},{"startTime":798.739,"endTime":803.719,"body":"direct suggestions from your team members"},{"startTime":798.739,"endTime":803.719,"body":"through our normal refinement process."},{"startTime":803.869,"endTime":807.349,"body":"And I'll have that percentage, I'll put"},{"startTime":803.869,"endTime":807.349,"body":"it on a dashboard and whatever tool you're"},{"startTime":807.349,"endTime":812.169,"body":"using, , it could be Microsoft, could be"},{"startTime":807.349,"endTime":812.169,"body":"Jira, could be any tool that you're using."},{"startTime":812.399,"endTime":814.829,"body":"I'll put that percentage on"},{"startTime":812.399,"endTime":814.829,"body":"the dashboard so it's visible."},{"startTime":815.009,"endTime":818.239,"body":"And when you see that number be a non"},{"startTime":815.009,"endTime":818.239,"body":"zero number, You know we're moving in"},{"startTime":818.239,"endTime":820.929,"body":"the right direction because your team"},{"startTime":818.239,"endTime":820.929,"body":"members are the closest to the problems."},{"startTime":821.079,"endTime":823.159,"body":"Again, assuming you're"},{"startTime":821.079,"endTime":823.159,"body":"talking to customers, right?"},{"startTime":823.309,"endTime":824.679,"body":"So, where did the ideas come from?"},{"startTime":824.709,"endTime":829.739,"body":"If they're all coming from outside of the"},{"startTime":824.709,"endTime":829.739,"body":"team, and the team's just taking tickets"},{"startTime":829.749,"endTime":833.489,"body":"and serving up orders that's an issue, we"},{"startTime":829.749,"endTime":833.489,"body":"probably should do something about that."},{"startTime":833.566,"endTime":837.703,"body":"but when thee team starts suggesting"},{"startTime":833.566,"endTime":837.703,"body":"things, that indicates we're moving now"},{"startTime":837.703,"endTime":840.313,"body":"in a direction towards delivering value."},{"startTime":840.463,"endTime":842.703,"body":"As opposed to just doing"},{"startTime":840.463,"endTime":842.703,"body":"whatever people tell us."},{"startTime":842.853,"endTime":843.743,"body":"Yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":843.743,"endTime":847.513,"body":"I think they need to also line up with the"},{"startTime":843.743,"endTime":847.513,"body":"what, what, what you have as a roadmap."},{"startTime":847.663,"endTime":848.363,"body":"That's one point."},{"startTime":848.373,"endTime":852.273,"body":"The other point is that that"},{"startTime":848.373,"endTime":852.273,"body":"dashboard widget should be"},{"startTime":852.273,"endTime":853.673,"body":"really a trend line, right?"},{"startTime":853.673,"endTime":854.823,"body":"Not a data point."},{"startTime":855.063,"endTime":857.403,"body":"So if you look at that and say,"},{"startTime":855.063,"endTime":857.403,"body":"look over the last three sprints,"},{"startTime":857.413,"endTime":858.513,"body":"four sprints, pick a number."},{"startTime":858.823,"endTime":860.603,"body":"This is going up or."},{"startTime":860.753,"endTime":861.643,"body":"Not, right?"},{"startTime":861.823,"endTime":863.183,"body":"But, but it's non zero."},{"startTime":863.333,"endTime":865.473,"body":"That, that's a talking point right there."},{"startTime":865.803,"endTime":869.813,"body":"But I have worked with teams where"},{"startTime":865.803,"endTime":869.813,"body":"or worked with clients, I should"},{"startTime":869.813,"endTime":872.933,"body":"say, where they don't like their"},{"startTime":869.813,"endTime":872.933,"body":"team members talking to customers."},{"startTime":873.083,"endTime":874.593,"body":"They just say, well, these are developers."},{"startTime":874.743,"endTime":878.853,"body":"You know, they're not very savvy in"},{"startTime":874.743,"endTime":878.853,"body":"terms of how they talk to customers."},{"startTime":878.943,"endTime":880.183,"body":"Or not polished enough."},{"startTime":880.193,"endTime":880.843,"body":"Not polished enough, yeah."},{"startTime":881.003,"endTime":883.573,"body":"So we'll just keep them"},{"startTime":881.003,"endTime":883.573,"body":"away from the conversation."},{"startTime":883.833,"endTime":886.973,"body":"Essentially, I boil it down to this,"},{"startTime":883.833,"endTime":886.973,"body":"keep them in the basement, feed"},{"startTime":886.973,"endTime":889.843,"body":"them pizza on their door once in a"},{"startTime":886.973,"endTime":889.843,"body":"while, and have them crank out code."},{"startTime":890.063,"endTime":893.793,"body":"If you are in that situation, you're"},{"startTime":890.063,"endTime":893.793,"body":"off to a non starter right there."},{"startTime":894.003,"endTime":898.393,"body":"Because you, again, this is not"},{"startTime":894.003,"endTime":898.393,"body":"this is not a robotic kind of a"},{"startTime":898.533,"endTime":901.693,"body":"situation where people are just"},{"startTime":898.533,"endTime":901.693,"body":"taking input and churning out code."},{"startTime":901.733,"endTime":905.583,"body":"We're not too far away from the"},{"startTime":901.733,"endTime":905.583,"body":"AI doing that for you, right?"},{"startTime":905.733,"endTime":906.823,"body":"I think we might already be there."},{"startTime":907.023,"endTime":909.963,"body":"Well, I mean, the reality of what you"},{"startTime":907.023,"endTime":909.963,"body":"just pointed out is that is the way that"},{"startTime":909.963,"endTime":913.393,"body":"the development team is viewed by some"},{"startTime":909.963,"endTime":913.393,"body":"of these pieces of the organization."},{"startTime":913.443,"endTime":915.833,"body":"We talked about this in"},{"startTime":913.443,"endTime":915.833,"body":"the very previous podcast,"},{"startTime":915.893,"endTime":922.313,"body":"if your organization on paper by"},{"startTime":915.893,"endTime":922.313,"body":"the financials shows that the sales"},{"startTime":922.313,"endTime":926.443,"body":"department has signed these contracts"},{"startTime":922.313,"endTime":926.443,"body":"and therefore brought X revenue"},{"startTime":926.443,"endTime":928.873,"body":"into the, into the company, right?"},{"startTime":929.013,"endTime":933.263,"body":"Sales department plus 3"},{"startTime":929.013,"endTime":933.263,"body":"million development department."},{"startTime":933.513,"endTime":935.623,"body":"Each developer costs 200, 000."},{"startTime":935.833,"endTime":937.103,"body":"We've got 10 developers."},{"startTime":937.113,"endTime":938.533,"body":"So minus 2 million."},{"startTime":939.328,"endTime":940.718,"body":"No revenue in."},{"startTime":940.868,"endTime":942.268,"body":"If that's your financials,"},{"startTime":942.468,"endTime":943.148,"body":"cost accounting."},{"startTime":943.148,"endTime":947.198,"body":"If that's your, if that's your financials,"},{"startTime":943.148,"endTime":947.198,"body":"you're always going to see all those"},{"startTime":947.208,"endTime":948.898,"body":"developers as just a cost sink."},{"startTime":949.228,"endTime":953.218,"body":"They never make your company any"},{"startTime":949.228,"endTime":953.218,"body":"money, which is patently untrue."},{"startTime":953.368,"endTime":957.048,"body":"I bring that up to say, most likely,"},{"startTime":953.368,"endTime":957.048,"body":"if you view your development team"},{"startTime":957.048,"endTime":961.758,"body":"that way, Then you're going to say,"},{"startTime":957.048,"endTime":961.758,"body":"I don't want those people talking to"},{"startTime":961.758,"endTime":967.048,"body":"customers because every minute they're"},{"startTime":961.758,"endTime":967.048,"body":"talking to customers is a dollar on my"},{"startTime":967.048,"endTime":970.968,"body":"financials that's expiring that I'm not"},{"startTime":967.048,"endTime":970.968,"body":"going to get back because they're not"},{"startTime":970.968,"endTime":972.548,"body":"producing code that can be capitalized."},{"startTime":972.848,"endTime":974.808,"body":"They're spending their time"},{"startTime":972.848,"endTime":974.808,"body":"talking to people and I have to"},{"startTime":974.838,"endTime":977.558,"body":"immediately write that off as"},{"startTime":974.838,"endTime":977.558,"body":"OpEx and it's money I'm losing."},{"startTime":977.708,"endTime":979.678,"body":"I have sales people and I"},{"startTime":977.708,"endTime":979.678,"body":"have product people and I have"},{"startTime":979.678,"endTime":980.718,"body":"whatever to talk to customers."},{"startTime":980.748,"endTime":982.238,"body":"I don't want the developers doing that."},{"startTime":982.438,"endTime":983.418,"body":"That statement."},{"startTime":983.568,"endTime":984.198,"body":"Big problem."},{"startTime":984.348,"endTime":985.098,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":985.268,"endTime":989.128,"body":"Development team is seen as"},{"startTime":985.268,"endTime":989.128,"body":"contributing to the liability"},{"startTime":989.128,"endTime":990.458,"body":"column on your balance sheet."},{"startTime":990.478,"endTime":990.988,"body":"Big problem."},{"startTime":991.168,"endTime":994.068,"body":"Big problem meaning your"},{"startTime":991.168,"endTime":994.068,"body":"financials are all messed up."},{"startTime":994.108,"endTime":996.978,"body":"You're looking at it incorrectly,"},{"startTime":994.108,"endTime":996.978,"body":"the people that are solving"},{"startTime":996.978,"endTime":1000.208,"body":"your business problems, you"},{"startTime":996.978,"endTime":1000.208,"body":"have all the financials wrong."},{"startTime":1000.398,"endTime":1000.638,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1000.788,"endTime":1001.068,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1001.228,"endTime":1004.158,"body":"And if you're in this situation,"},{"startTime":1001.228,"endTime":1004.158,"body":"those of you that are watching or"},{"startTime":1004.158,"endTime":1007.888,"body":"listening, the only advice we can"},{"startTime":1004.158,"endTime":1007.888,"body":"give you is keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":1008.198,"endTime":1010.003,"body":"That's like, I have more advice."},{"startTime":1010.153,"endTime":1010.273,"body":"Go ahead."},{"startTime":1010.403,"endTime":1010.823,"body":"Go ahead."},{"startTime":1010.953,"endTime":1011.693,"body":"I have more advice."},{"startTime":1011.743,"endTime":1015.963,"body":"My, my advice is watch our podcast"},{"startTime":1011.743,"endTime":1015.963,"body":"with Newton about the financials of"},{"startTime":1016.113,"endTime":1019.603,"body":"software development to, to, to educate"},{"startTime":1016.113,"endTime":1019.603,"body":"yourself because quite honestly, it's"},{"startTime":1019.613,"endTime":1021.033,"body":"not that difficult to understand."},{"startTime":1021.373,"endTime":1023.263,"body":"It really isn't rocket science."},{"startTime":1023.373,"endTime":1025.073,"body":"It's, it's numbers on the spreadsheet."},{"startTime":1025.843,"endTime":1029.563,"body":"Your time talking to customers directly"},{"startTime":1025.843,"endTime":1029.563,"body":"impacts the value of the software because"},{"startTime":1029.563,"endTime":1030.913,"body":"you can better understand the problems."},{"startTime":1031.033,"endTime":1033.903,"body":"So you have time for this in"},{"startTime":1031.033,"endTime":1033.903,"body":"the scrum model, whatever you're"},{"startTime":1033.903,"endTime":1035.263,"body":"using, whatever model you're using."},{"startTime":1035.413,"endTime":1036.863,"body":"There is time for talking to customers."},{"startTime":1036.993,"endTime":1038.763,"body":"It's, it's baked into the process."},{"startTime":1038.913,"endTime":1042.403,"body":"It really shouldn't be earth"},{"startTime":1038.913,"endTime":1042.403,"body":"shattering, to make this adjustment."},{"startTime":1042.403,"endTime":1042.923,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1043.103,"endTime":1044.373,"body":"I absolutely agree."},{"startTime":1044.423,"endTime":1049.103,"body":"If your organization values that, if"},{"startTime":1044.423,"endTime":1049.103,"body":"not still keep that resume update."},{"startTime":1049.393,"endTime":1052.643,"body":"All right, let's, let's move on"},{"startTime":1049.393,"endTime":1052.643,"body":"to the next topic that we have."},{"startTime":1052.803,"endTime":1056.283,"body":"We talked about talking to customers"},{"startTime":1052.803,"endTime":1056.283,"body":"in the time, basically time away"},{"startTime":1056.283,"endTime":1057.813,"body":"from hands on keyboard zone."},{"startTime":1057.983,"endTime":1059.533,"body":"Oh, we got to have hands on keyboards."},{"startTime":1059.773,"endTime":1061.643,"body":"Anytime you hear that"},{"startTime":1059.773,"endTime":1061.643,"body":"phrase, hands on keyboards."},{"startTime":1061.793,"endTime":1065.823,"body":"It makes the hair on my bald spot whoo,"},{"startTime":1061.793,"endTime":1065.823,"body":"it'd go crazy, mine too, by the way."},{"startTime":1065.973,"endTime":1066.463,"body":"It figure."},{"startTime":1066.503,"endTime":1069.553,"body":"So the same thing about, Oh, we"},{"startTime":1066.503,"endTime":1069.553,"body":"can't have you talking to customers"},{"startTime":1069.703,"endTime":1072.083,"body":"that, that, and like that's time"},{"startTime":1069.703,"endTime":1072.083,"body":"away from hands on keyboard."},{"startTime":1072.233,"endTime":1075.183,"body":"I think about well, well, what"},{"startTime":1072.233,"endTime":1075.183,"body":"about, what about exploratory"},{"startTime":1075.183,"endTime":1078.293,"body":"tasks or learning new technologies"},{"startTime":1075.183,"endTime":1078.293,"body":"or training time for training?"},{"startTime":1078.303,"endTime":1080.113,"body":"Well, like usually in organizations."},{"startTime":1080.263,"endTime":1083.933,"body":"That have this outlook if you're in an"},{"startTime":1080.263,"endTime":1083.933,"body":"organization with this outlook of like,"},{"startTime":1083.953,"endTime":1086.983,"body":"oh, don't don't have developers talk to"},{"startTime":1083.953,"endTime":1086.983,"body":"customers That's a waste of their time."},{"startTime":1087.013,"endTime":1091.973,"body":"Oh, I can't like they won't have hands on"},{"startTime":1087.013,"endTime":1091.973,"body":"keyboards be less time coding Yeah then"},{"startTime":1091.993,"endTime":1096.163,"body":"probably your learning and development is"},{"startTime":1091.993,"endTime":1096.163,"body":"probably done on nights and weekends on"},{"startTime":1096.163,"endTime":1098.323,"body":"your own time on your own time Absolutely."},{"startTime":1098.573,"endTime":1103.013,"body":"Yeah, because that's all you know,"},{"startTime":1098.573,"endTime":1103.013,"body":"that's all perceived as Waste or"},{"startTime":1103.163,"endTime":1105.453,"body":"detracting from your utilization, right?"},{"startTime":1105.603,"endTime":1106.173,"body":"What do you mean?"},{"startTime":1106.173,"endTime":1109.563,"body":"We have to give them two hours"},{"startTime":1106.173,"endTime":1109.563,"body":"every week to update their skillset."},{"startTime":1109.573,"endTime":1110.113,"body":"What do you mean?"},{"startTime":1110.113,"endTime":1111.773,"body":"We have to give them every Christmas off."},{"startTime":1111.923,"endTime":1112.873,"body":"They had that last year."},{"startTime":1112.873,"endTime":1115.653,"body":"I hope it doesn't turn to a trend."},{"startTime":1115.653,"endTime":1120.843,"body":"Again, I go back to my"},{"startTime":1115.653,"endTime":1120.843,"body":"previous suggestion."},{"startTime":1120.993,"endTime":1121.943,"body":"Anyway, that's right."},{"startTime":1122.093,"endTime":1123.103,"body":"Rubbin is racing."},{"startTime":1123.103,"endTime":1125.123,"body":"I think that's that's what"},{"startTime":1123.103,"endTime":1125.123,"body":"we want to say on this one."},{"startTime":1125.403,"endTime":1129.843,"body":"The, the, the idea like all of this,"},{"startTime":1125.403,"endTime":1129.843,"body":"the, the banner of all of this,"},{"startTime":1129.843,"endTime":1132.713,"body":"like if we're going to put our arms"},{"startTime":1129.843,"endTime":1132.713,"body":"around the whole topic, the banner"},{"startTime":1132.713,"endTime":1135.743,"body":"is we're trying to drive costs down."},{"startTime":1135.943,"endTime":1139.613,"body":"So the idea is anytime away from"},{"startTime":1135.943,"endTime":1139.613,"body":"the keyboard writing software."},{"startTime":1139.613,"endTime":1144.603,"body":"Well, Is time wasted anytime that"},{"startTime":1139.613,"endTime":1144.603,"body":"you're whatever, exploring a new"},{"startTime":1144.603,"endTime":1147.593,"body":"technology because maybe we could take"},{"startTime":1144.603,"endTime":1147.593,"body":"advantage of when we need an opinion"},{"startTime":1147.813,"endTime":1150.173,"body":"on the new technology is time wasted."},{"startTime":1150.373,"endTime":1154.573,"body":"So anytime the organization looks"},{"startTime":1150.373,"endTime":1154.573,"body":"at something and and perceives it."},{"startTime":1154.728,"endTime":1158.338,"body":"As time wasted, I'm assuming"},{"startTime":1154.728,"endTime":1158.338,"body":"they're trying to dissuade you"},{"startTime":1158.488,"endTime":1160.718,"body":"from engaging in that activity."},{"startTime":1160.848,"endTime":1161.068,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1161.068,"endTime":1165.578,"body":"And typically this is, this is usually"},{"startTime":1161.068,"endTime":1165.578,"body":"driven down from the bean counters, right?"},{"startTime":1165.578,"endTime":1167.458,"body":"They're, they're looking at two columns."},{"startTime":1167.458,"endTime":1168.948,"body":"They're looking at the liability column."},{"startTime":1169.208,"endTime":1172.112,"body":"Here's how much the resource cost is."},{"startTime":1172.262,"endTime":1172.942,"body":"I hate that term."},{"startTime":1173.062,"endTime":1176.012,"body":"And you know, there's really"},{"startTime":1173.062,"endTime":1176.012,"body":"nothing they can put in the other"},{"startTime":1176.012,"endTime":1178.092,"body":"column to balance it out with."},{"startTime":1178.422,"endTime":1183.292,"body":"So yes, I agree with you that they're"},{"startTime":1178.422,"endTime":1183.292,"body":"looking at that and saying, maximize"},{"startTime":1183.292,"endTime":1188.252,"body":"utilization, keep squeezing people till"},{"startTime":1183.292,"endTime":1188.252,"body":"we get every drop of whatever it is"},{"startTime":1188.252,"endTime":1189.722,"body":"we're looking for, right out of them."},{"startTime":1189.872,"endTime":1193.252,"body":"But there's opportunity costs"},{"startTime":1189.872,"endTime":1193.252,"body":"here that you alluded to, right?"},{"startTime":1193.262,"endTime":1195.212,"body":"So like lately, it's been AI."},{"startTime":1195.472,"endTime":1199.222,"body":"So if your team aren't, if your"},{"startTime":1195.472,"endTime":1199.222,"body":"teams aren't looking at How"},{"startTime":1199.262,"endTime":1200.912,"body":"AI impacts your environment."},{"startTime":1201.062,"endTime":1202.412,"body":"You're going to miss out, right?"},{"startTime":1202.702,"endTime":1204.252,"body":"And when are they going to do that?"},{"startTime":1204.402,"endTime":1209.382,"body":"If you're looking for maximum utilization,"},{"startTime":1204.402,"endTime":1209.382,"body":"it'll be far better to say we'll give"},{"startTime":1209.382,"endTime":1213.532,"body":"you a certain amount of time that"},{"startTime":1209.382,"endTime":1213.532,"body":"doesn't count towards your utilization"},{"startTime":1213.532,"endTime":1217.172,"body":"or contributions that you can go ahead"},{"startTime":1213.532,"endTime":1217.172,"body":"and explore these things because they"},{"startTime":1217.172,"endTime":1219.162,"body":"will help the organization, right?"},{"startTime":1219.312,"endTime":1223.012,"body":"See the opportunities, identify"},{"startTime":1219.312,"endTime":1223.012,"body":"them, leverage them, right?"},{"startTime":1223.012,"endTime":1225.722,"body":"Collectively, not just the"},{"startTime":1223.012,"endTime":1225.722,"body":"dev teams, but the whole org."},{"startTime":1225.882,"endTime":1229.482,"body":"If you're not in a company that"},{"startTime":1225.882,"endTime":1229.482,"body":"values those sorts of things, then"},{"startTime":1229.662,"endTime":1232.512,"body":"I'm afraid you really do need to"},{"startTime":1229.662,"endTime":1232.512,"body":"keep that resume updated because"},{"startTime":1232.512,"endTime":1235.152,"body":"that company is Circling the drain."},{"startTime":1235.452,"endTime":1239.082,"body":"Well, look, I mean, let's, let's stay"},{"startTime":1235.452,"endTime":1239.082,"body":"here for a second on driving costs"},{"startTime":1239.082,"endTime":1242.472,"body":"down that, like the, the, the company"},{"startTime":1239.082,"endTime":1242.472,"body":"has decided, like the way that we"},{"startTime":1242.472,"endTime":1246.072,"body":"drive costs down as we keep hands on"},{"startTime":1242.472,"endTime":1246.072,"body":"keyboards and keep writing software,"},{"startTime":1246.232,"endTime":1250.042,"body":"the best software possible for dis"},{"startTime":1246.232,"endTime":1250.042,"body":"dispatching cabs around the city"},{"startTime":1250.162,"endTime":1252.382,"body":"while the whole cab industry dies."},{"startTime":1252.412,"endTime":1253.882,"body":"'cause Uber has killed it, right?"},{"startTime":1253.932,"endTime":1256.662,"body":"that's the equivalent here is like,"},{"startTime":1253.932,"endTime":1256.662,"body":"you, your, your eye is not on the"},{"startTime":1256.662,"endTime":1258.402,"body":"value of the broader solution."},{"startTime":1258.402,"endTime":1261.972,"body":"Your eye is on being efficient"},{"startTime":1258.402,"endTime":1261.972,"body":"in the solution that you have"},{"startTime":1262.272,"endTime":1263.622,"body":"while the market dwindles."},{"startTime":1263.862,"endTime":1264.462,"body":", but also."},{"startTime":1264.612,"endTime":1268.052,"body":"But also I'm going back to the"},{"startTime":1264.612,"endTime":1268.052,"body":"old Mike Miller adage, like"},{"startTime":1268.052,"endTime":1271.062,"body":"teams without financial metrics."},{"startTime":1271.212,"endTime":1273.272,"body":"Cannot make financial decisions, right?"},{"startTime":1273.512,"endTime":1277.312,"body":"So if you take Financial"},{"startTime":1273.512,"endTime":1277.312,"body":"information away from the team."},{"startTime":1277.382,"endTime":1278.622,"body":"Oh, you don't have a budget now."},{"startTime":1278.662,"endTime":1281.662,"body":"You don't get to see any financials"},{"startTime":1278.662,"endTime":1281.662,"body":"You don't get to see the P\u0026 L."},{"startTime":1281.772,"endTime":1285.952,"body":"You don't get to see how much you your"},{"startTime":1281.772,"endTime":1285.952,"body":"product is making with certain customers"},{"startTime":1285.952,"endTime":1290.442,"body":"and You don't get to see when customers"},{"startTime":1285.952,"endTime":1290.442,"body":"leave the solution and stop paying or"},{"startTime":1290.442,"endTime":1295.652,"body":"whatever I mean, you you're no longer"},{"startTime":1290.442,"endTime":1295.652,"body":"exposed to that you lose a dimension of"},{"startTime":1295.662,"endTime":1300.212,"body":"data And now you can't, like the decisions"},{"startTime":1295.662,"endTime":1300.212,"body":"that you make, I mean, I hope they're"},{"startTime":1300.212,"endTime":1304.242,"body":"good but now that you don't have financial"},{"startTime":1300.212,"endTime":1304.242,"body":"data, like how good are your decisions?"},{"startTime":1304.392,"endTime":1308.932,"body":"This is like a team being in a cave"},{"startTime":1304.392,"endTime":1308.932,"body":"in pitch darkness and they don't"},{"startTime":1308.932,"endTime":1310.552,"body":"have a compass or a flashlight."},{"startTime":1310.822,"endTime":1311.792,"body":"So just go somewhere."},{"startTime":1311.942,"endTime":1314.622,"body":"Right, you run into brick walls"},{"startTime":1311.942,"endTime":1314.622,"body":"or stone walls or whatever."},{"startTime":1314.862,"endTime":1316.612,"body":"Yeah, I, I, exactly."},{"startTime":1316.622,"endTime":1318.232,"body":"You're, you're so spot on with that."},{"startTime":1318.382,"endTime":1322.442,"body":"Because a lot of these organizations"},{"startTime":1318.382,"endTime":1322.442,"body":"say that's not the team's business."},{"startTime":1322.592,"endTime":1322.892,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1322.892,"endTime":1323.232,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1323.382,"endTime":1325.272,"body":"So let's just let them crank out code."},{"startTime":1325.282,"endTime":1327.772,"body":"Or they're scared to share"},{"startTime":1325.282,"endTime":1327.772,"body":"financials with the team."},{"startTime":1327.932,"endTime":1329.032,"body":"Yeah, that's true too."},{"startTime":1329.032,"endTime":1330.592,"body":"For reasons."},{"startTime":1330.622,"endTime":1333.482,"body":"Like I've never been given, I'll"},{"startTime":1330.622,"endTime":1333.482,"body":"be honest, like I've never been"},{"startTime":1333.482,"endTime":1337.632,"body":"given a good reason why financial"},{"startTime":1333.482,"endTime":1337.632,"body":"information is not shared with the team."},{"startTime":1337.782,"endTime":1339.982,"body":"Other than We're scared we don't want to."},{"startTime":1340.132,"endTime":1342.492,"body":"But there's a lot of that, but"},{"startTime":1340.132,"endTime":1342.492,"body":"there's also this thing about,"},{"startTime":1342.692,"endTime":1348.212,"body":"well, the product of the team is"},{"startTime":1342.692,"endTime":1348.212,"body":"contributing X dollars to the company."},{"startTime":1348.252,"endTime":1348.572,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1348.632,"endTime":1351.442,"body":"If they find out that, they"},{"startTime":1348.632,"endTime":1351.442,"body":"might all ask for raises."},{"startTime":1351.702,"endTime":1354.332,"body":"There's a lot of fear based"},{"startTime":1351.702,"endTime":1354.332,"body":"around all of that, right?"},{"startTime":1354.482,"endTime":1356.902,"body":"I've seen that too, in organizations"},{"startTime":1354.482,"endTime":1356.902,"body":"where they say, well, if you"},{"startTime":1356.922,"endTime":1358.142,"body":"tell them what they're worth."},{"startTime":1358.357,"endTime":1358.577,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1358.577,"endTime":1362.347,"body":"Because what they're bringing into the"},{"startTime":1358.577,"endTime":1362.347,"body":"company, they might all ask for raises."},{"startTime":1362.377,"endTime":1363.207,"body":"We can't have that."},{"startTime":1363.357,"endTime":1365.957,"body":"It's like, okay, why"},{"startTime":1363.357,"endTime":1365.957,"body":"not incent them instead?"},{"startTime":1365.958,"endTime":1367.457,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1367.457,"endTime":1367.787,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1367.927,"endTime":1370.517,"body":"I mean, I mean, like if an"},{"startTime":1367.927,"endTime":1370.517,"body":"employee suddenly learns like"},{"startTime":1370.517,"endTime":1371.947,"body":"that, like their value is not."},{"startTime":1372.097,"endTime":1373.687,"body":"10 times their salary to the company."},{"startTime":1373.687,"endTime":1375.757,"body":"It's 50 times their salary to the company."},{"startTime":1376.047,"endTime":1379.337,"body":"I, I don't see a reason why not,"},{"startTime":1376.047,"endTime":1379.337,"body":"why not to have a conversation."},{"startTime":1379.437,"endTime":1381.097,"body":"Like you're, you're just"},{"startTime":1379.437,"endTime":1381.097,"body":"having a conversation."},{"startTime":1381.247,"endTime":1384.927,"body":"I mean, the conversation might end"},{"startTime":1381.247,"endTime":1384.927,"body":"with company only values you at"},{"startTime":1384.947,"endTime":1387.067,"body":"this rate and that it is what it is."},{"startTime":1387.307,"endTime":1389.337,"body":"you're not going to have that blunt"},{"startTime":1387.307,"endTime":1389.337,"body":"of a conversation with the company,"},{"startTime":1389.457,"endTime":1393.277,"body":"but the takeaway, the outcome of"},{"startTime":1389.457,"endTime":1393.277,"body":"the conversation might in fact be."},{"startTime":1393.427,"endTime":1396.787,"body":"The market rate for this"},{"startTime":1393.427,"endTime":1396.787,"body":"job is only X dollars."},{"startTime":1397.017,"endTime":1399.237,"body":"So you're, I mean, people"},{"startTime":1397.017,"endTime":1399.237,"body":"have this conversation."},{"startTime":1399.387,"endTime":1404.787,"body":"All the time when they think that they"},{"startTime":1399.387,"endTime":1404.787,"body":"should get a promotion or when they"},{"startTime":1404.797,"endTime":1407.247,"body":"make a decision to leave a company"},{"startTime":1404.797,"endTime":1407.247,"body":"because they know the only way to"},{"startTime":1407.247,"endTime":1411.357,"body":"get plus 50 percent or 20 percent or"},{"startTime":1407.247,"endTime":1411.357,"body":"30 percent of the salary is to move."},{"startTime":1411.387,"endTime":1412.137,"body":"Absolutely, yeah."},{"startTime":1412.337,"endTime":1415.727,"body":"So I really don't see a problem with"},{"startTime":1412.337,"endTime":1415.727,"body":"having the conversation of there shouldn't"},{"startTime":1415.727,"endTime":1416.797,"body":"be a roadblock is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1416.857,"endTime":1420.457,"body":"I agree, although it's not in"},{"startTime":1416.857,"endTime":1420.457,"body":"the psyche of the people that"},{"startTime":1420.507,"endTime":1421.807,"body":"are guardians of this data."},{"startTime":1421.957,"endTime":1422.967,"body":"Yeah, that's the problem."},{"startTime":1422.997,"endTime":1426.857,"body":"I mean, I guess it goes back to the the"},{"startTime":1422.997,"endTime":1426.857,"body":"category that we're discussing now is"},{"startTime":1426.857,"endTime":1432.567,"body":"drive cost down it You're one of the"},{"startTime":1426.857,"endTime":1432.567,"body":"costs Is the cost of labor and certainly"},{"startTime":1432.677,"endTime":1437.087,"body":"you want to try to keep the cost of"},{"startTime":1432.677,"endTime":1437.087,"body":"labor as equal this year whatever this"},{"startTime":1437.087,"endTime":1438.897,"body":"year plus inflation to next year, right?"},{"startTime":1438.897,"endTime":1442.357,"body":"You're like, if inflation is like,"},{"startTime":1438.897,"endTime":1442.357,"body":"I don't know, 8 percent for example"},{"startTime":1442.467,"endTime":1445.677,"body":"then next year you would expect your"},{"startTime":1442.467,"endTime":1445.677,"body":"labor costs to go up by 8 percent"},{"startTime":1445.727,"endTime":1447.207,"body":"and you would try to budget for that."},{"startTime":1447.357,"endTime":1452.707,"body":"Unfortunately, this, this kind of thinking"},{"startTime":1447.357,"endTime":1452.707,"body":"also precipitates down to the teams"},{"startTime":1452.707,"endTime":1457.587,"body":"themselves and people controlling how"},{"startTime":1452.707,"endTime":1457.587,"body":"much time they spend doing things that"},{"startTime":1457.587,"endTime":1459.727,"body":"they should be doing like sprint events."},{"startTime":1459.877,"endTime":1463.847,"body":"You know, why are you spending an hour and"},{"startTime":1459.877,"endTime":1463.847,"body":"a half in a retrospective every two weeks?"},{"startTime":1463.997,"endTime":1465.687,"body":"Surely that should only take 15 minutes."},{"startTime":1465.707,"endTime":1466.327,"body":"Sure, yeah."},{"startTime":1466.367,"endTime":1466.657,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1466.687,"endTime":1468.287,"body":"Go crank out code in the rest of the time."},{"startTime":1468.437,"endTime":1470.347,"body":"Yeah, I mean, how effective is that?"},{"startTime":1470.477,"endTime":1472.597,"body":"In the medium term, never mind long term."},{"startTime":1472.767,"endTime":1475.797,"body":"Well, I'm glad you brought that up"},{"startTime":1472.767,"endTime":1475.797,"body":"because Ed is going to be happy with this"},{"startTime":1475.797,"endTime":1479.927,"body":"section of the podcast where I talk about"},{"startTime":1475.797,"endTime":1479.927,"body":"Gino Wickman's book, Traction, where in"},{"startTime":1479.927,"endTime":1484.727,"body":"the EOS, the entrepreneurial operating"},{"startTime":1479.927,"endTime":1484.727,"body":"system, I can't say entrepreneurial, so"},{"startTime":1484.727,"endTime":1487.897,"body":"I'm going to say it three more times,"},{"startTime":1484.727,"endTime":1487.897,"body":"that He, he has a section where he"},{"startTime":1487.897,"endTime":1491.817,"body":"talks about working in the business"},{"startTime":1487.897,"endTime":1491.817,"body":"versus working on the business."},{"startTime":1492.017,"endTime":1494.707,"body":"Working in the business is all these"},{"startTime":1492.017,"endTime":1494.707,"body":"metrics that we're talking about."},{"startTime":1494.737,"endTime":1494.897,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1494.907,"endTime":1496.727,"body":"Hands on keyboards, gotta punch out."},{"startTime":1496.727,"endTime":1497.647,"body":"Number of keystrokes."},{"startTime":1497.647,"endTime":1498.777,"body":"Yeah, number of keystrokes."},{"startTime":1498.797,"endTime":1500.127,"body":"Oh, the lines of code."},{"startTime":1500.127,"endTime":1500.457,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1500.467,"endTime":1502.207,"body":"Written per developer."},{"startTime":1502.217,"endTime":1502.237,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1502.287,"endTime":1502.887,"body":"Versus."},{"startTime":1503.037,"endTime":1506.907,"body":"on the business, which is Hey, we really"},{"startTime":1503.037,"endTime":1506.907,"body":"should be peering and we're having"},{"startTime":1506.907,"endTime":1508.577,"body":"some terrible problems in quality."},{"startTime":1508.847,"endTime":1513.987,"body":"Maybe if we just peer or, or our, our PRs,"},{"startTime":1508.847,"endTime":1513.987,"body":"because they have to be approved by the"},{"startTime":1513.987,"endTime":1519.787,"body":"architect plus whatever other person takes"},{"startTime":1513.987,"endTime":1519.787,"body":"six days is on average peers reviewing"},{"startTime":1519.787,"endTime":1521.477,"body":"to get it, to get a PR done, right?"},{"startTime":1521.477,"endTime":1521.717,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1521.967,"endTime":1523.247,"body":"Like ridiculous."},{"startTime":1523.297,"endTime":1524.477,"body":"How about instead of that?"},{"startTime":1524.627,"endTime":1527.987,"body":"We just peer on everything and"},{"startTime":1524.627,"endTime":1527.987,"body":"then checking in immediately"},{"startTime":1527.987,"endTime":1528.727,"body":"goes in the pipeline."},{"startTime":1528.767,"endTime":1529.057,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1529.207,"endTime":1529.777,"body":"How about that?"},{"startTime":1529.787,"endTime":1533.247,"body":"Like working on the business"},{"startTime":1529.787,"endTime":1533.247,"body":"is different than your normal"},{"startTime":1533.257,"endTime":1534.087,"body":"day to day in the business."},{"startTime":1534.097,"endTime":1534.387,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1534.617,"endTime":1537.537,"body":"Because working in the business,"},{"startTime":1534.617,"endTime":1537.537,"body":"you become myopic at that point."},{"startTime":1537.567,"endTime":1539.867,"body":"Like you can only kind of see"},{"startTime":1537.567,"endTime":1539.867,"body":"directly what's in front of you"},{"startTime":1540.007,"endTime":1541.467,"body":"when you're working in the business."},{"startTime":1541.617,"endTime":1543.977,"body":"But when you stop and take"},{"startTime":1541.617,"endTime":1543.977,"body":"a step back and look at."},{"startTime":1544.277,"endTime":1547.637,"body":"What you're doing from far away"},{"startTime":1544.277,"endTime":1547.637,"body":"from a little further, even, even"},{"startTime":1547.637,"endTime":1551.047,"body":"if it's a little further away you"},{"startTime":1547.637,"endTime":1551.047,"body":"gain a whole different perspective."},{"startTime":1551.237,"endTime":1551.947,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1552.097,"endTime":1552.877,"body":"Couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":1553.027,"endTime":1557.977,"body":"The last bit here that we want to talk"},{"startTime":1553.027,"endTime":1557.977,"body":"about is when dealing with efficiency,"},{"startTime":1558.027,"endTime":1562.037,"body":"if we're going to focus the lens and"},{"startTime":1558.027,"endTime":1562.037,"body":"get more efficient all around as a"},{"startTime":1562.047,"endTime":1563.747,"body":"company, that's what we're talking about."},{"startTime":1563.777,"endTime":1566.057,"body":"And we're not just blaming"},{"startTime":1563.777,"endTime":1566.057,"body":"the development department."},{"startTime":1566.207,"endTime":1566.547,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1566.697,"endTime":1571.547,"body":"A lot of the improvements to efficiency"},{"startTime":1566.697,"endTime":1571.547,"body":"are not in your development department."},{"startTime":1571.797,"endTime":1574.247,"body":"They are outside of software development."},{"startTime":1574.257,"endTime":1576.997,"body":"They are outside of the development"},{"startTime":1574.257,"endTime":1576.997,"body":"team, the individual development team."},{"startTime":1577.277,"endTime":1581.427,"body":"They are at the layer of the organization"},{"startTime":1577.277,"endTime":1581.427,"body":"that comes up with the objectives, at"},{"startTime":1581.427,"endTime":1586.397,"body":"the layer of the organization that makes"},{"startTime":1581.427,"endTime":1586.397,"body":"decisions based on the key results that"},{"startTime":1586.397,"endTime":1590.177,"body":"are occurring, and decisions to to pivot."},{"startTime":1590.327,"endTime":1593.007,"body":"Decisions to go with a"},{"startTime":1590.327,"endTime":1593.007,"body":"certain decision or not."},{"startTime":1593.327,"endTime":1596.987,"body":"Like that cost of delay in decision"},{"startTime":1593.327,"endTime":1596.987,"body":"making, having to run things up"},{"startTime":1596.987,"endTime":1599.967,"body":"the chain, come back down the"},{"startTime":1596.987,"endTime":1599.967,"body":"chain, that kind of stuff, right?"},{"startTime":1600.117,"endTime":1603.537,"body":"That kind of stuff, coordinating"},{"startTime":1600.117,"endTime":1603.537,"body":"with the customers, trying to land"},{"startTime":1603.547,"endTime":1607.267,"body":"things in different roadmaps at"},{"startTime":1603.547,"endTime":1607.267,"body":"the same time for execution, right?"},{"startTime":1607.417,"endTime":1608.877,"body":"Those things, in my experience."},{"startTime":1609.077,"endTime":1612.227,"body":"They outweigh by a long distance."},{"startTime":1612.267,"endTime":1613.497,"body":"A long distance outweigh?"},{"startTime":1613.537,"endTime":1614.197,"body":"That makes no sense."},{"startTime":1614.207,"endTime":1615.127,"body":"An order of magnitude."},{"startTime":1615.147,"endTime":1620.177,"body":"An order of magnitude outweigh what"},{"startTime":1615.147,"endTime":1620.177,"body":"any individual team can contribute."},{"startTime":1620.327,"endTime":1625.737,"body":"A bad strategy pushed forward well"},{"startTime":1620.327,"endTime":1625.737,"body":"beyond the time when the evidence proves"},{"startTime":1625.737,"endTime":1628.667,"body":"the strategy isn't working anymore and"},{"startTime":1625.737,"endTime":1628.667,"body":"we should not pursue that strategy."},{"startTime":1628.817,"endTime":1633.577,"body":"Far outweighs anything, any individual"},{"startTime":1628.817,"endTime":1633.577,"body":"team can do to be more efficient."},{"startTime":1633.727,"endTime":1638.267,"body":"So the efficiency should be taken"},{"startTime":1633.727,"endTime":1638.267,"body":"up out of the team level and"},{"startTime":1638.277,"endTime":1640.847,"body":"applied a higher level to start."},{"startTime":1640.877,"endTime":1646.147,"body":"That's where I think most efficiency"},{"startTime":1640.877,"endTime":1646.147,"body":"pushes in organizations would help if they"},{"startTime":1646.147,"endTime":1650.327,"body":"got out of the team level and started,"},{"startTime":1646.147,"endTime":1650.327,"body":"how we pick ideas, some ideas over others."},{"startTime":1650.477,"endTime":1653.017,"body":"Let's make this process"},{"startTime":1650.477,"endTime":1653.017,"body":"a bit more efficient."},{"startTime":1653.167,"endTime":1656.397,"body":"Again, I'm going to do this yes and"},{"startTime":1653.167,"endTime":1656.397,"body":"thing with you and say, what if you"},{"startTime":1656.407,"endTime":1660.917,"body":"started at the very top instead of"},{"startTime":1656.407,"endTime":1660.917,"body":"just looking at the dev teams and then"},{"startTime":1660.997,"endTime":1663.127,"body":"up a level or two at the very top."},{"startTime":1663.277,"endTime":1666.017,"body":"People aren't making themselves"},{"startTime":1663.277,"endTime":1666.017,"body":"available often, right?"},{"startTime":1666.017,"endTime":1669.607,"body":"So there's delay, cost of delay"},{"startTime":1666.017,"endTime":1669.607,"body":"comes into the picture there."},{"startTime":1669.757,"endTime":1674.787,"body":"But what you outlined with all of"},{"startTime":1669.757,"endTime":1674.787,"body":"these things gets magnified in large."},{"startTime":1674.937,"endTime":1678.837,"body":"Companies, large orgs, where you"},{"startTime":1674.937,"endTime":1678.837,"body":"have the PMO, for example, right?"},{"startTime":1679.057,"endTime":1683.587,"body":"The PMO comes in and says, Brian, you"},{"startTime":1679.057,"endTime":1683.587,"body":"need to do these three decks by Friday."},{"startTime":1683.737,"endTime":1688.397,"body":"That's something you have to do, but"},{"startTime":1683.737,"endTime":1688.397,"body":"it's not contributing to anything, right?"},{"startTime":1688.677,"endTime":1692.947,"body":"So, you could talk about that and say,"},{"startTime":1688.677,"endTime":1692.947,"body":"Well, what value is that giving you?"},{"startTime":1692.967,"endTime":1694.647,"body":"What problem is that solving for you?"},{"startTime":1694.807,"endTime":1695.777,"body":"We need to see."},{"startTime":1695.887,"endTime":1696.927,"body":"What do you need to see?"},{"startTime":1697.077,"endTime":1699.427,"body":"We need to see how much the"},{"startTime":1697.077,"endTime":1699.427,"body":"team's delivered that week."},{"startTime":1699.727,"endTime":1700.167,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":1700.317,"endTime":1701.617,"body":"Why do you need to see that?"},{"startTime":1701.937,"endTime":1707.287,"body":"Short conversation usually the PMO is so"},{"startTime":1701.937,"endTime":1707.287,"body":"entrenched, but come back with solutions"},{"startTime":1707.287,"endTime":1708.987,"body":"like, well, we have this dashboard."},{"startTime":1709.097,"endTime":1710.227,"body":"I'll give you a link to it."},{"startTime":1710.237,"endTime":1711.257,"body":"It's real time data."},{"startTime":1711.257,"endTime":1714.707,"body":"So I'm not going to produce an, a"},{"startTime":1711.257,"endTime":1714.707,"body":"polished PowerPoint deck that you"},{"startTime":1714.707,"endTime":1716.967,"body":"may or may not look at anytime soon."},{"startTime":1717.117,"endTime":1718.077,"body":"How about that?"},{"startTime":1718.117,"endTime":1722.227,"body":"Yeah, I think there's ways you can kind"},{"startTime":1718.117,"endTime":1722.227,"body":"of influence the process from bottom up."},{"startTime":1722.377,"endTime":1725.667,"body":"It's not going to happen top down"},{"startTime":1722.377,"endTime":1725.667,"body":"because those guys that are at the"},{"startTime":1725.667,"endTime":1730.627,"body":"top and the middle layers, Did not get"},{"startTime":1725.667,"endTime":1730.627,"body":"there by working in an agile way, right?"},{"startTime":1730.627,"endTime":1731.387,"body":"Just historically."},{"startTime":1731.387,"endTime":1732.347,"body":"Again, I'm not blaming them."},{"startTime":1732.597,"endTime":1733.287,"body":"They are where they are."},{"startTime":1733.437,"endTime":1734.637,"body":"It's a function of time."},{"startTime":1734.837,"endTime":1738.457,"body":"So as they were evolving through"},{"startTime":1734.837,"endTime":1738.457,"body":"their careers, it was not"},{"startTime":1738.757,"endTime":1740.547,"body":"necessarily working in an agile way."},{"startTime":1740.547,"endTime":1742.847,"body":"It was definitely the old"},{"startTime":1740.547,"endTime":1742.847,"body":"way of working, right?"},{"startTime":1742.877,"endTime":1743.767,"body":"The command and control."},{"startTime":1743.767,"endTime":1744.477,"body":"And that's fine."},{"startTime":1744.627,"endTime":1749.447,"body":"But for them to impose that"},{"startTime":1744.627,"endTime":1749.447,"body":"on your teams today, right?"},{"startTime":1749.597,"endTime":1751.527,"body":"And expect different results."},{"startTime":1751.567,"endTime":1753.287,"body":"That's where we have an issue."},{"startTime":1753.437,"endTime":1756.927,"body":"So if you're in the situation where"},{"startTime":1753.437,"endTime":1756.927,"body":"you're being asked to do things that"},{"startTime":1756.927,"endTime":1761.417,"body":"are not directly contributing to either"},{"startTime":1756.927,"endTime":1761.417,"body":"making money or saving money, right?"},{"startTime":1761.767,"endTime":1763.157,"body":"Basically, that's what it boils down to."},{"startTime":1763.447,"endTime":1766.817,"body":"You have internal projects you might"},{"startTime":1763.447,"endTime":1766.817,"body":"be working on that save money, fine."},{"startTime":1766.897,"endTime":1768.917,"body":"Your customers are internal in that case."},{"startTime":1769.067,"endTime":1771.207,"body":"If you're not either doing one"},{"startTime":1769.067,"endTime":1771.207,"body":"of those two things, right,"},{"startTime":1771.247,"endTime":1774.867,"body":"then you should question the"},{"startTime":1771.247,"endTime":1774.867,"body":"time you spend on that activity."},{"startTime":1774.877,"endTime":1778.117,"body":"It's going to help you in"},{"startTime":1774.877,"endTime":1778.117,"body":"the equation of utilization."},{"startTime":1778.427,"endTime":1782.577,"body":"My utilization is still 80%, but"},{"startTime":1778.427,"endTime":1782.577,"body":"in the 80 percent that I'm spending"},{"startTime":1782.577,"endTime":1786.677,"body":"today I'm delivering this amount of"},{"startTime":1782.577,"endTime":1786.677,"body":"value as opposed to the 80 percent"},{"startTime":1786.677,"endTime":1790.047,"body":"I was delivering last month before"},{"startTime":1786.677,"endTime":1790.047,"body":"I pushed back on these things."},{"startTime":1790.057,"endTime":1793.057,"body":"Yeah, but I was only delivering"},{"startTime":1790.057,"endTime":1793.057,"body":"that amount of value, right?"},{"startTime":1793.207,"endTime":1796.187,"body":"And so it's the illusion of"},{"startTime":1793.207,"endTime":1796.187,"body":"progress at the end of the day"},{"startTime":1796.257,"endTime":1797.527,"body":"and you need to question that."},{"startTime":1797.877,"endTime":1799.117,"body":"Is it really progress?"},{"startTime":1799.157,"endTime":1803.087,"body":"Yeah, again, like the, as the product"},{"startTime":1799.157,"endTime":1803.087,"body":"manager on the podcast, like I could"},{"startTime":1803.087,"endTime":1807.597,"body":"care less about efficiency, when"},{"startTime":1803.087,"endTime":1807.597,"body":"challenged on it, which I have been"},{"startTime":1807.617,"endTime":1811.567,"body":"before challenge on it, when challenged"},{"startTime":1807.617,"endTime":1811.567,"body":"on it, I kick it over to say that's"},{"startTime":1811.567,"endTime":1815.477,"body":"something for the engineering management"},{"startTime":1811.567,"endTime":1815.477,"body":"to talk with the engineers about"},{"startTime":1815.707,"endTime":1818.047,"body":"what is best in their discipline."},{"startTime":1818.197,"endTime":1821.417,"body":"Cause it was like, who am I in"},{"startTime":1818.197,"endTime":1821.417,"body":"product management to tell the"},{"startTime":1821.417,"endTime":1824.927,"body":"engineers what is the most efficient"},{"startTime":1821.417,"endTime":1824.927,"body":"way to do software engineering?"},{"startTime":1825.077,"endTime":1826.887,"body":"All of the metrics I am measuring."},{"startTime":1827.037,"endTime":1830.327,"body":"To know if the product product,"},{"startTime":1827.037,"endTime":1830.327,"body":"meaning the aggregate efforts of the"},{"startTime":1830.597,"endTime":1835.577,"body":"product management product design the"},{"startTime":1830.597,"endTime":1835.577,"body":"UI UX people, the software engineers,"},{"startTime":1835.727,"endTime":1839.927,"body":"everybody that the metrics I'm looking"},{"startTime":1835.727,"endTime":1839.927,"body":"at are what you just said that the,"},{"startTime":1840.107,"endTime":1844.527,"body":"the dollars, the bottom line dollars"},{"startTime":1840.107,"endTime":1844.527,"body":"are the dollars increasing because"},{"startTime":1844.627,"endTime":1848.707,"body":"if I bring everything back to that"},{"startTime":1844.627,"endTime":1848.707,"body":"number, Effectiveness utilization,"},{"startTime":1848.707,"endTime":1850.817,"body":"like none of those numbers matter."},{"startTime":1850.967,"endTime":1855.127,"body":"Like utilization, for example, you"},{"startTime":1850.967,"endTime":1855.127,"body":"can make a very loose interpretation"},{"startTime":1855.477,"endTime":1859.807,"body":"about utilization to the bottom line of"},{"startTime":1855.477,"endTime":1859.807,"body":"like, Oh, where where my developers are"},{"startTime":1859.947,"endTime":1863.427,"body":"90 percent hands on keyboard writing"},{"startTime":1859.947,"endTime":1863.427,"body":"code, but that has nothing to do."},{"startTime":1863.577,"endTime":1866.837,"body":"With the fact that we got"},{"startTime":1863.577,"endTime":1866.837,"body":"renewal from other customers"},{"startTime":1866.837,"endTime":1867.887,"body":"or brought on more customers"},{"startTime":1867.887,"endTime":1870.547,"body":"look, in that example, I'm just"},{"startTime":1867.887,"endTime":1870.547,"body":"going to extend the the example."},{"startTime":1870.847,"endTime":1873.117,"body":"Your developers are only"},{"startTime":1870.847,"endTime":1873.117,"body":"90 percent utilized."},{"startTime":1873.217,"endTime":1873.557,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":1873.657,"endTime":1875.667,"body":"But you're getting"},{"startTime":1873.657,"endTime":1875.667,"body":"renewals from customers."},{"startTime":1875.717,"endTime":1878.967,"body":"That might be some of that 10 percent"},{"startTime":1875.717,"endTime":1878.967,"body":"that they're actually talking to them."},{"startTime":1879.117,"endTime":1879.867,"body":"You never know."},{"startTime":1879.927,"endTime":1883.867,"body":"It, it very well could be they're, the"},{"startTime":1879.927,"endTime":1883.867,"body":"customers are only renewing because of"},{"startTime":1883.867,"endTime":1888.127,"body":"that 10 percent of time that developers"},{"startTime":1883.867,"endTime":1888.127,"body":"are taking to outreach to customers"},{"startTime":1888.347,"endTime":1889.977,"body":"and talk to them and they say, Oh."},{"startTime":1890.127,"endTime":1893.757,"body":"Developers from Brian and Om Software"},{"startTime":1890.127,"endTime":1893.757,"body":"Development Company regularly reach out"},{"startTime":1893.757,"endTime":1896.627,"body":"to me, even though they're automated"},{"startTime":1893.757,"endTime":1896.627,"body":"emails, they go back to real people"},{"startTime":1896.627,"endTime":1900.247,"body":"when we reply, on a regular basis, to"},{"startTime":1896.627,"endTime":1900.247,"body":"say, are you happy with the solution?"},{"startTime":1900.257,"endTime":1903.827,"body":"And I get to talk straight to the"},{"startTime":1900.257,"endTime":1903.827,"body":"developer, development team that"},{"startTime":1903.827,"endTime":1907.297,"body":"maintains my solution, and they're,"},{"startTime":1903.827,"endTime":1907.297,"body":"they're on top of it, and, every time"},{"startTime":1907.297,"endTime":1910.737,"body":"I log in, I see new features in the"},{"startTime":1907.297,"endTime":1910.737,"body":"platform, and, and I really believe"},{"startTime":1910.737,"endTime":1911.342,"body":"that this is the right thing to do."},{"startTime":1911.492,"endTime":1912.762,"body":"Product can carry me to the future."},{"startTime":1913.022,"endTime":1916.032,"body":"Making people feel like we"},{"startTime":1913.022,"endTime":1916.032,"body":"are part of their company."},{"startTime":1916.082,"endTime":1918.852,"body":"None of these metrics contribute to that."},{"startTime":1919.002,"endTime":1922.042,"body":"The, I argue that a whole,"},{"startTime":1919.002,"endTime":1922.042,"body":"there's a whole other category."},{"startTime":1922.042,"endTime":1924.022,"body":"We can have another"},{"startTime":1922.042,"endTime":1924.022,"body":"podcast on effectiveness."},{"startTime":1924.172,"endTime":1928.582,"body":"Versus efficiency where we just talk"},{"startTime":1924.172,"endTime":1928.582,"body":"about things that make your customer"},{"startTime":1928.582,"endTime":1932.642,"body":"feel like they're getting value out"},{"startTime":1928.582,"endTime":1932.642,"body":"of your solution, and they could care"},{"startTime":1932.872,"endTime":1935.982,"body":"less that your customers spend 7."},{"startTime":1935.982,"endTime":1937.852,"body":"5 hours a day coding versus."},{"startTime":1938.157,"endTime":1938.497,"body":"You know, 6."},{"startTime":1938.497,"endTime":1939.617,"body":"5 hours."},{"startTime":1939.767,"endTime":1942.947,"body":"Yeah, I think that's a valid podcast"},{"startTime":1939.767,"endTime":1942.947,"body":"that we could do in the future."},{"startTime":1943.097,"endTime":1945.807,"body":"Staying on point, one of the things"},{"startTime":1943.097,"endTime":1945.807,"body":"I would say, just, I'm going to"},{"startTime":1945.817,"endTime":1949.697,"body":"press a little further on this"},{"startTime":1945.817,"endTime":1949.697,"body":"and say, The focus on utilization"},{"startTime":1949.927,"endTime":1951.857,"body":"actually detracts from that."},{"startTime":1951.887,"endTime":1955.177,"body":"Because there is a time"},{"startTime":1951.887,"endTime":1955.177,"body":"involved on your team."},{"startTime":1955.327,"endTime":1957.587,"body":"And it magnifies if you're"},{"startTime":1955.327,"endTime":1957.587,"body":"at scale, by the way."},{"startTime":1957.887,"endTime":1958.677,"body":"Obviously, right?"},{"startTime":1958.678,"endTime":1964.807,"body":"So that time element of doing things for"},{"startTime":1958.678,"endTime":1964.807,"body":"the purpose of maximizing utilization"},{"startTime":1964.887,"endTime":1968.557,"body":"is actually detracting away from that"},{"startTime":1964.887,"endTime":1968.557,"body":"experience you just talked about."},{"startTime":1968.707,"endTime":1970.767,"body":"That is a huge opportunity cost."},{"startTime":1970.837,"endTime":1971.507,"body":"I think you're right."},{"startTime":1971.507,"endTime":1974.587,"body":"Just like the people who think"},{"startTime":1971.507,"endTime":1974.587,"body":"about hands on keyboards, I think"},{"startTime":1974.597,"endTime":1978.987,"body":"about every second we're talking"},{"startTime":1974.597,"endTime":1978.987,"body":"about maximizing for efficiency."},{"startTime":1979.197,"endTime":1984.627,"body":"And I am the worst for this because I will"},{"startTime":1979.197,"endTime":1984.627,"body":"quickly say, this is a waste of my time."},{"startTime":1984.777,"endTime":1986.897,"body":"We don't need to spend the"},{"startTime":1984.777,"endTime":1986.897,"body":"engineer's time doing this."},{"startTime":1987.047,"endTime":1988.407,"body":"I've got other things I need to do."},{"startTime":1988.757,"endTime":1992.557,"body":"So, I like, I will quickly intercede"},{"startTime":1988.757,"endTime":1992.557,"body":"in conversations about like, Ooh,"},{"startTime":1992.567,"endTime":1996.937,"body":"I was like, I don't know Do we need"},{"startTime":1992.567,"endTime":1996.937,"body":"to spend an hour on retrospectives?"},{"startTime":1996.967,"endTime":1999.497,"body":"Maybe we can get that done in 15 minutes."},{"startTime":1999.827,"endTime":2001.937,"body":"You know, this is not where"},{"startTime":1999.827,"endTime":2001.937,"body":"I want to spend my time."},{"startTime":2001.997,"endTime":2002.677,"body":"Like come on."},{"startTime":2002.827,"endTime":2003.297,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2003.497,"endTime":2007.037,"body":"But also as we, as we wrap this"},{"startTime":2003.497,"endTime":2007.037,"body":"conversation, like I feel for a lot"},{"startTime":2007.037,"endTime":2009.697,"body":"of people out there that are, they're"},{"startTime":2007.037,"endTime":2009.697,"body":"not in a position where they can"},{"startTime":2009.697,"endTime":2012.917,"body":"pull this Elmo card and say, this is"},{"startTime":2009.697,"endTime":2012.917,"body":"not where we want to place our bets."},{"startTime":2013.067,"endTime":2013.967,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2013.967,"endTime":2015.277,"body":"I think you've summed it up nicely."},{"startTime":2015.567,"endTime":2016.657,"body":"Was that the last topic?"},{"startTime":2016.657,"endTime":2017.977,"body":"I think that might have"},{"startTime":2016.657,"endTime":2017.977,"body":"been the last topic."},{"startTime":2017.977,"endTime":2018.357,"body":"We done."},{"startTime":2018.597,"endTime":2019.387,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2019.397,"endTime":2020.187,"body":"So here we go."},{"startTime":2020.247,"endTime":2021.077,"body":"Efficiency."},{"startTime":2021.107,"endTime":2022.047,"body":"Now you've heard it all."},{"startTime":2022.197,"endTime":2024.397,"body":"Let us know what you think"},{"startTime":2022.197,"endTime":2024.397,"body":"in the comments below."},{"startTime":2024.397,"endTime":2024.587,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2024.587,"endTime":2026.987,"body":"If you want to be efficient,"},{"startTime":2024.587,"endTime":2026.987,"body":"go ahead and put a comment in."},{"startTime":2027.137,"endTime":2031.177,"body":"ArguingAgile.Com, ArguingAgile.Com,"},{"startTime":2027.137,"endTime":2031.177,"body":"we got a form for comments."},{"startTime":2031.327,"endTime":2034.826,"body":"You can put a little microphone in"},{"startTime":2031.327,"endTime":2034.826,"body":"there and record a little angry We"},{"startTime":2034.826,"endTime":2036.106,"body":"listen to every tweet, I promise."},{"startTime":2036.106,"endTime":2038.676,"body":"That's right, we listen to everyone,"},{"startTime":2036.106,"endTime":2038.676,"body":"especially the ones that we don't."},{"startTime":2038.846,"endTime":2041.862,"body":"Yeah, so, let us know"},{"startTime":2038.846,"endTime":2041.862,"body":"and like and subscribe!"}]}