{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.179,"endTime":3.579,"body":"Om, I don't know how many times you've"},{"startTime":0.179,"endTime":3.579,"body":"heard, but I've heard a bunch of times."},{"startTime":3.584,"endTime":5.65,"body":"I know what the customer needs."},{"startTime":5.889,"endTime":6.804,"body":"I've heard that all the time."},{"startTime":6.874,"endTime":9.405,"body":"Tell you, I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":6.874,"endTime":9.405,"body":"tell you what the customer needs, right."},{"startTime":9.554,"endTime":11.084,"body":"And I'm going to tell you in gusto."},{"startTime":11.084,"endTime":11.334,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":11.364,"endTime":13.245,"body":"It's like, I tell you what they need."},{"startTime":13.245,"endTime":13.574,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":13.594,"endTime":14.394,"body":"That's what they need."},{"startTime":14.404,"endTime":15.065,"body":"Go build it."},{"startTime":15.205,"endTime":15.504,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":15.585,"endTime":19.985,"body":"So we're going to talk on this"},{"startTime":15.585,"endTime":19.985,"body":"podcast about the different people"},{"startTime":19.985,"endTime":21.075,"body":"that you will hear that from."},{"startTime":21.155,"endTime":22.755,"body":"I know what the customer needs, right."},{"startTime":22.775,"endTime":24.455,"body":"Or, or it's what the customer needs."},{"startTime":24.455,"endTime":27.085,"body":"I'm not really sure what the title"},{"startTime":24.455,"endTime":27.085,"body":"of the podcast is going to be,"},{"startTime":27.135,"endTime":31.625,"body":"some sort of deviation on that"},{"startTime":27.135,"endTime":31.625,"body":"theme of, I know what the customer"},{"startTime":31.625,"endTime":32.635,"body":"needs and I'm going to tell you."},{"startTime":32.785,"endTime":33.035,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":33.215,"endTime":36.705,"body":"Let's start right away with the person"},{"startTime":33.215,"endTime":36.705,"body":"you should be hearing this from, which"},{"startTime":36.705,"endTime":38.385,"body":"is the product owner and or manager."},{"startTime":38.535,"endTime":42.355,"body":"Yeah, so the problem with the manager"},{"startTime":38.535,"endTime":42.355,"body":"I have more confidence that what"},{"startTime":42.355,"endTime":47.635,"body":"they're telling you is real almost,"},{"startTime":42.355,"endTime":47.635,"body":"especially if your product managers and"},{"startTime":47.635,"endTime":51.515,"body":"product owners are actually talking to"},{"startTime":47.635,"endTime":51.515,"body":"your customers and not just thinking"},{"startTime":51.515,"endTime":53.535,"body":"about stuff out of the ether, right?"},{"startTime":53.685,"endTime":56.905,"body":"If they're speaking with the"},{"startTime":53.685,"endTime":56.905,"body":"customers regularly and they say,"},{"startTime":57.055,"endTime":58.725,"body":"here's what the customer wants."},{"startTime":58.875,"endTime":62.615,"body":"Okay, my first question always,"},{"startTime":58.875,"endTime":62.615,"body":"regardless of who tells me"},{"startTime":62.615,"endTime":64.245,"body":"that is, so how do you know?"},{"startTime":64.395,"endTime":67.255,"body":"Have you validated this"},{"startTime":64.395,"endTime":67.255,"body":"with the customer, right?"},{"startTime":67.495,"endTime":71.195,"body":"And, and then it goes deeper than"},{"startTime":67.495,"endTime":71.195,"body":"that well, who did you talk to?"},{"startTime":71.205,"endTime":75.234,"body":"Who who are the customer representatives"},{"startTime":71.205,"endTime":75.234,"body":"that are telling you this, right?"},{"startTime":75.314,"endTime":77.594,"body":"Maybe on this podcast, we're going"},{"startTime":75.314,"endTime":77.594,"body":"to get wearing units talking about"},{"startTime":77.594,"endTime":82.114,"body":"feature factories here in a second,"},{"startTime":77.594,"endTime":82.114,"body":"maybe, but in an ideal scenario,"},{"startTime":82.394,"endTime":85.174,"body":"your product manager is talking with"},{"startTime":82.394,"endTime":85.174,"body":"your customers on a regular basis."},{"startTime":85.494,"endTime":88.444,"body":"They're talking about the customer's"},{"startTime":85.494,"endTime":88.444,"body":"problems and they're turning those"},{"startTime":88.454,"endTime":92.374,"body":"problems, bringing them back in"},{"startTime":88.454,"endTime":92.374,"body":"house and turning those problems into"},{"startTime":92.444,"endTime":94.044,"body":"solutions in the form of software."},{"startTime":94.194,"endTime":96.814,"body":"That solves your customer's issues, right?"},{"startTime":96.964,"endTime":98.554,"body":"Yeah, I mean, look, I agree, right?"},{"startTime":98.614,"endTime":102.424,"body":"In an ideal scenario, people are"},{"startTime":98.614,"endTime":102.424,"body":"not just listening to the customer"},{"startTime":102.714,"endTime":104.419,"body":"tell them what the customer wants."},{"startTime":104.569,"endTime":105.669,"body":"They're asking the why."},{"startTime":105.819,"endTime":107.819,"body":"The customer says, I need X, Y, Z."},{"startTime":107.969,"endTime":110.009,"body":"The questions are, why do you need that?"},{"startTime":110.159,"endTime":112.899,"body":"You know, or, what would"},{"startTime":110.159,"endTime":112.899,"body":"happen if you didn't have that?"},{"startTime":113.049,"endTime":115.569,"body":"Right, just to understand"},{"startTime":113.049,"endTime":115.569,"body":"the context behind it."},{"startTime":115.719,"endTime":117.699,"body":"So they can come up"},{"startTime":115.719,"endTime":117.699,"body":"with a better solution."},{"startTime":117.699,"endTime":121.189,"body":"So assuming all of that is happening"},{"startTime":117.699,"endTime":121.189,"body":"and people are coming back to you,"},{"startTime":121.349,"endTime":125.429,"body":"whoever you are, to the teams and"},{"startTime":121.349,"endTime":125.429,"body":"say, here's what I found in my"},{"startTime":125.429,"endTime":126.779,"body":"interactions with the customer."},{"startTime":126.929,"endTime":128.449,"body":"I have more faith in that."},{"startTime":128.599,"endTime":132.059,"body":"Because now they've actually, I mean,"},{"startTime":128.599,"endTime":132.059,"body":"they haven't come up with it, like I"},{"startTime":132.059,"endTime":133.839,"body":"said, out of, out of the ether, right?"},{"startTime":133.949,"endTime":134.709,"body":"They've, they've got some."},{"startTime":134.859,"endTime":135.739,"body":"Credence to this."},{"startTime":135.739,"endTime":138.219,"body":"Yeah, and the better product"},{"startTime":135.739,"endTime":138.219,"body":"managers that are out there are"},{"startTime":138.219,"endTime":140.549,"body":"going to bring the problems back."},{"startTime":140.699,"endTime":143.919,"body":"And they are going to"},{"startTime":140.699,"endTime":143.919,"body":"collaborate with the team."},{"startTime":144.069,"endTime":144.199,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":144.199,"endTime":145.889,"body":"And let the team solve the problem."},{"startTime":145.889,"endTime":147.599,"body":"I just had this discussion the other day."},{"startTime":147.919,"endTime":150.329,"body":"with someone interviewing"},{"startTime":147.919,"endTime":150.329,"body":"for a product manager role."},{"startTime":150.479,"endTime":152.149,"body":"And they have a technical background."},{"startTime":152.269,"endTime":152.469,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":152.469,"endTime":153.969,"body":"They don't come from the business."},{"startTime":154.229,"endTime":154.459,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":154.609,"endTime":157.399,"body":"And one of the things I brought"},{"startTime":154.609,"endTime":157.399,"body":"up, I, I bring up the, the"},{"startTime":157.429,"endTime":158.679,"body":"challenging part of the interview."},{"startTime":158.679,"endTime":161.869,"body":"I try to bring up as early as possible"},{"startTime":158.679,"endTime":161.869,"body":"in the interview because I, I'm"},{"startTime":161.869,"endTime":163.149,"body":"not, I'm not the hiring manager."},{"startTime":163.389,"endTime":168.046,"body":"I'm just a peer in the organization"},{"startTime":163.389,"endTime":168.046,"body":"who would be this person's product"},{"startTime":168.046,"endTime":169.839,"body":"management peer if they were to get hired."},{"startTime":170.119,"endTime":172.569,"body":"So I'm coming at it from the"},{"startTime":170.119,"endTime":172.569,"body":"perspective of You know to be"},{"startTime":172.569,"endTime":173.809,"body":"successful in the organization."},{"startTime":173.959,"endTime":176.169,"body":"So, of course, I'm going to bring"},{"startTime":173.959,"endTime":176.169,"body":"up the very first thing that"},{"startTime":176.319,"endTime":180.009,"body":"I'm going to say, Hey, don't you"},{"startTime":176.319,"endTime":180.009,"body":"think you may have difficulty"},{"startTime":180.159,"endTime":181.949,"body":"because of whatever, X, Y, and Z?"},{"startTime":181.949,"endTime":183.009,"body":"And what's your plan?"},{"startTime":183.229,"endTime":183.509,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":183.559,"endTime":184.859,"body":"First of all, are you aware of it?"},{"startTime":185.009,"endTime":185.389,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":185.709,"endTime":187.489,"body":"And second of all, what's your plan?"},{"startTime":187.559,"endTime":189.859,"body":"You know, how do you think you're"},{"startTime":187.559,"endTime":189.859,"body":"going to reach out for help?"},{"startTime":189.869,"endTime":191.529,"body":"Or who who would you"},{"startTime":189.869,"endTime":191.529,"body":"reach out for help to?"},{"startTime":191.679,"endTime":191.709,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":191.859,"endTime":193.409,"body":"Anyway, it's valid criticism."},{"startTime":193.559,"endTime":196.809,"body":"If I were interviewing for a"},{"startTime":193.559,"endTime":196.809,"body":"product management position of"},{"startTime":196.959,"endTime":198.179,"body":"you have a technical background."},{"startTime":198.369,"endTime":203.109,"body":"So I automatically expect that when"},{"startTime":198.369,"endTime":203.109,"body":"you hear a customer problem, your"},{"startTime":203.119,"endTime":205.059,"body":"brain switches to solution mode."},{"startTime":205.209,"endTime":207.659,"body":"You would think the more"},{"startTime":205.209,"endTime":207.659,"body":"experienced you are, the better"},{"startTime":207.659,"endTime":212.029,"body":"you get at forcing yourself not"},{"startTime":207.659,"endTime":212.029,"body":"to switch into solutioning mode."},{"startTime":212.179,"endTime":213.279,"body":"I think it's the opposite."},{"startTime":213.289,"endTime":216.689,"body":"The more teams you work on, the more"},{"startTime":213.289,"endTime":216.689,"body":"solutions you have seen to problems."},{"startTime":217.024,"endTime":220.894,"body":"I think you're saying, Oh, we solved"},{"startTime":217.024,"endTime":220.894,"body":"that on a different team this way."},{"startTime":221.044,"endTime":222.574,"body":"What do you think that would work here?"},{"startTime":222.574,"endTime":225.614,"body":"And everyone kind of nods and says,"},{"startTime":222.574,"endTime":225.614,"body":"actually, we do think that would work."},{"startTime":225.894,"endTime":230.204,"body":"And now, and the issue with that is you've"},{"startTime":225.894,"endTime":230.204,"body":"gotten to the solution pretty quickly."},{"startTime":230.324,"endTime":231.364,"body":"Everyone will agree."},{"startTime":231.384,"endTime":232.654,"body":"And seemingly."},{"startTime":232.804,"endTime":235.274,"body":"You've moved through the planning"},{"startTime":232.804,"endTime":235.274,"body":"and the solutioning and all that"},{"startTime":235.274,"endTime":236.244,"body":"kind of stuff pretty quickly."},{"startTime":236.394,"endTime":237.824,"body":"Yeah, you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":237.824,"endTime":241.284,"body":"So that is, that is actually true"},{"startTime":237.824,"endTime":241.284,"body":"that people who are more experienced"},{"startTime":241.604,"endTime":245.304,"body":"have a bank of solutions from their"},{"startTime":241.604,"endTime":245.304,"body":"experience, right, that they can say,"},{"startTime":245.634,"endTime":249.514,"body":"this is almost like what we did before,"},{"startTime":245.634,"endTime":249.514,"body":"so therefore it will work here too."},{"startTime":249.664,"endTime":255.454,"body":"And what they're ignoring there is all of"},{"startTime":249.664,"endTime":255.454,"body":"the stuff that's around the issue, right?"},{"startTime":255.794,"endTime":259.384,"body":"You know, it's not just the technical"},{"startTime":255.794,"endTime":259.384,"body":"solution that's warranted for here."},{"startTime":259.614,"endTime":263.044,"body":"You're looking at who are the customers"},{"startTime":259.614,"endTime":263.044,"body":"who are going to be using this?"},{"startTime":263.224,"endTime":268.544,"body":"Is your customer the end customer or"},{"startTime":263.224,"endTime":268.544,"body":"like are they a B to B customer and"},{"startTime":268.544,"endTime":270.194,"body":"they have a B to C customer, right?"},{"startTime":270.504,"endTime":271.994,"body":"You need to think about all of that."},{"startTime":272.334,"endTime":276.914,"body":"And maybe your previous experience"},{"startTime":272.334,"endTime":276.914,"body":"didn't go down to that level of detail."},{"startTime":276.944,"endTime":278.014,"body":"So yeah, people do have."},{"startTime":278.309,"endTime":281.609,"body":"There's a, there's a tendency"},{"startTime":278.309,"endTime":281.609,"body":"to simply pick something and"},{"startTime":281.609,"endTime":283.209,"body":"say, this is what we did before."},{"startTime":283.219,"endTime":284.359,"body":"It's almost this."},{"startTime":284.369,"endTime":285.149,"body":"It'll work, right?"},{"startTime":285.299,"endTime":288.159,"body":"And those people that have not"},{"startTime":285.299,"endTime":288.159,"body":"so experienced or they haven't"},{"startTime":288.159,"endTime":290.339,"body":"been in the company long they're"},{"startTime":288.159,"endTime":290.339,"body":"going to go with it, right?"},{"startTime":290.369,"endTime":292.449,"body":"They'll just simply say,"},{"startTime":290.369,"endTime":292.449,"body":"yeah, if you say so."},{"startTime":292.599,"endTime":294.699,"body":"And I think we've missed the boat, right?"},{"startTime":294.909,"endTime":298.179,"body":"Well, I mean, especially the more"},{"startTime":294.909,"endTime":298.179,"body":"junior people on your team or the,"},{"startTime":298.269,"endTime":301.849,"body":"the product managers who don't have"},{"startTime":298.269,"endTime":301.849,"body":"a lot of experience it's really easy."},{"startTime":301.999,"endTime":303.319,"body":"To lead the witness here."},{"startTime":303.419,"endTime":306.089,"body":"But the problem there is like"},{"startTime":303.419,"endTime":306.089,"body":"you, then the team never gets"},{"startTime":306.099,"endTime":308.789,"body":"the win because you're, you're"},{"startTime":306.099,"endTime":308.789,"body":"the person with all the answers."},{"startTime":308.939,"endTime":311.709,"body":"I would imagine people would start"},{"startTime":308.939,"endTime":311.709,"body":"to resent that you're the person"},{"startTime":311.709,"endTime":313.069,"body":"with all the, don't bring him in."},{"startTime":313.419,"endTime":314.729,"body":"He's like, we'll never come to this."},{"startTime":314.739,"endTime":316.059,"body":"He'll just tell us what we're going to do."},{"startTime":316.059,"endTime":319.129,"body":"And then he'll heavily imply that that's"},{"startTime":316.059,"endTime":319.129,"body":"what we should do and get mad when we"},{"startTime":319.129,"endTime":320.889,"body":"don't want to there's dangers here."},{"startTime":321.039,"endTime":322.259,"body":"There's some rocks in these waters."},{"startTime":322.319,"endTime":324.159,"body":"For sure, there's crocs in this water."},{"startTime":324.159,"endTime":325.419,"body":"Yeah, absolutely, you're right."},{"startTime":325.699,"endTime":328.809,"body":"People will find that out, and they"},{"startTime":325.699,"endTime":328.809,"body":"will, like you said, they will then"},{"startTime":328.819,"endTime":330.649,"body":"start to not invite you to those calls."},{"startTime":330.799,"endTime":335.799,"body":"I also think the anchoring that"},{"startTime":330.799,"endTime":335.799,"body":"happens, right, Loses so much because"},{"startTime":335.839,"endTime":338.019,"body":"the customer doesn't know all of that."},{"startTime":338.169,"endTime":340.869,"body":"Presumably it's not the same customer"},{"startTime":338.169,"endTime":340.869,"body":"that you have a previous solution with."},{"startTime":341.189,"endTime":344.139,"body":"So, they're going to go with"},{"startTime":341.189,"endTime":344.139,"body":"the position of authority that"},{"startTime":344.149,"endTime":346.889,"body":"you present as a senior person."},{"startTime":347.199,"endTime":349.779,"body":"Product manager, product"},{"startTime":347.199,"endTime":349.779,"body":"owner, architect, whoever."},{"startTime":349.929,"endTime":353.309,"body":"And, and they'll believe you because"},{"startTime":349.929,"endTime":353.309,"body":"you come from that that position,"},{"startTime":353.319,"endTime":355.879,"body":"like I say, of authority and say,"},{"startTime":353.319,"endTime":355.879,"body":"we've done this sort of thing before."},{"startTime":356.029,"endTime":357.639,"body":"It wasn't exactly that, but it was close."},{"startTime":357.789,"endTime":358.189,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":358.339,"endTime":358.649,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":358.649,"endTime":361.559,"body":"Because for them, it's good because"},{"startTime":358.649,"endTime":361.559,"body":"they can get to the solution faster."},{"startTime":361.709,"endTime":362.369,"body":"But are they?"},{"startTime":362.519,"endTime":362.799,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":362.949,"endTime":368.399,"body":"Yeah, I mean the challenge there is"},{"startTime":362.949,"endTime":368.399,"body":"because you're not really walking out"},{"startTime":368.399,"endTime":373.263,"body":"the problem, you may skip learnings"},{"startTime":368.399,"endTime":373.263,"body":"that you otherwise would come to."},{"startTime":373.413,"endTime":377.293,"body":"But the product manager, if again,"},{"startTime":373.413,"endTime":377.293,"body":"if done right, the product manager"},{"startTime":377.293,"endTime":381.053,"body":"is the one person bringing us back"},{"startTime":377.293,"endTime":381.053,"body":"to the vision and tying this into"},{"startTime":381.053,"endTime":385.503,"body":"the rest of our products that the"},{"startTime":381.053,"endTime":385.503,"body":"systems view the systems systems view."},{"startTime":385.653,"endTime":386.588,"body":"What am I trying to say?"},{"startTime":386.738,"endTime":387.428,"body":"? Systems thinking."},{"startTime":387.428,"endTime":388.208,"body":"Systems thinking."},{"startTime":388.208,"endTime":388.298,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":388.303,"endTime":392.738,"body":"The systems thinking view of, of"},{"startTime":388.303,"endTime":392.738,"body":"the entire all of our software and"},{"startTime":392.738,"endTime":393.938,"body":"all of our products and whatnot."},{"startTime":394.088,"endTime":396.218,"body":"You know, that, that, that would"},{"startTime":394.088,"endTime":396.218,"body":"be the advantage here is that like,"},{"startTime":396.248,"endTime":400.273,"body":"well, how can given without disrupting"},{"startTime":396.248,"endTime":400.273,"body":"the rest of our products how can we"},{"startTime":400.273,"endTime":402.913,"body":"offer a solution that that should"},{"startTime":400.273,"endTime":402.913,"body":"be the advantage in this category."},{"startTime":403.063,"endTime":405.733,"body":"The con in this category"},{"startTime":403.063,"endTime":405.733,"body":"where, where product managers."},{"startTime":405.883,"endTime":407.943,"body":"Might fall foul in this category, I guess."},{"startTime":408.093,"endTime":409.273,"body":"Is using that."},{"startTime":409.313,"endTime":412.323,"body":"Oh, the customer said that"},{"startTime":409.313,"endTime":412.323,"body":"like defensively all the time."},{"startTime":412.473,"endTime":414.063,"body":"Yeah, I've had a product manager."},{"startTime":414.393,"endTime":415.123,"body":"Who was like that."},{"startTime":415.123,"endTime":419.353,"body":"And it was not, it was not pleasant"},{"startTime":415.123,"endTime":419.353,"body":"to get hit with just basically get"},{"startTime":419.363,"endTime":420.853,"body":"beat over and over and over again."},{"startTime":420.853,"endTime":423.493,"body":"It was like, that's not that the"},{"startTime":420.853,"endTime":423.493,"body":"customer didn't say they need that."},{"startTime":423.623,"endTime":425.323,"body":"So we're not going to"},{"startTime":423.623,"endTime":425.323,"body":"do anything like that."},{"startTime":425.513,"endTime":426.063,"body":"Come on, man."},{"startTime":426.213,"endTime":426.613,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":426.723,"endTime":427.053,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":427.053,"endTime":430.913,"body":"I mean, there's definitely a tendency of"},{"startTime":427.053,"endTime":430.913,"body":"product manager to say I want this my way."},{"startTime":430.923,"endTime":432.083,"body":"So I'm going to just help the team."},{"startTime":432.143,"endTime":432.423,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":432.573,"endTime":435.373,"body":"And because I don't want to talk to"},{"startTime":432.573,"endTime":435.373,"body":"the customer, they have to believe me."},{"startTime":435.523,"endTime":435.863,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":436.013,"endTime":440.453,"body":"This is where I think there's"},{"startTime":436.013,"endTime":440.453,"body":"huge, huge advantages to be had in"},{"startTime":440.473,"endTime":443.503,"body":"having more than just one person"},{"startTime":440.473,"endTime":443.503,"body":"who interacts with the customer."},{"startTime":443.653,"endTime":446.003,"body":"Yes, the Product Manager"},{"startTime":443.653,"endTime":446.003,"body":"could be the face, right?"},{"startTime":446.003,"endTime":446.593,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":446.743,"endTime":451.783,"body":"But bring in people with you who can ask"},{"startTime":446.743,"endTime":451.783,"body":"questions, probing questions that you"},{"startTime":452.133,"endTime":455.458,"body":"maybe aren't in a position to ask because"},{"startTime":452.133,"endTime":455.458,"body":"you don't you're not coming from that."},{"startTime":455.608,"endTime":456.168,"body":"Background."},{"startTime":456.178,"endTime":456.378,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":456.648,"endTime":457.198,"body":"You know what?"},{"startTime":457.488,"endTime":460.908,"body":"So I would start with with business"},{"startTime":457.488,"endTime":460.908,"body":"related things first instead of just"},{"startTime":460.938,"endTime":464.358,"body":"technical things like I mentioned"},{"startTime":460.938,"endTime":464.358,"body":"earlier, I would ask the customer what"},{"startTime":464.358,"endTime":467.478,"body":"would be the impact if you didn't have"},{"startTime":464.358,"endTime":467.478,"body":"this thing that you're looking to get?"},{"startTime":467.628,"endTime":467.968,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":468.248,"endTime":471.428,"body":"Because it tells me heaps about"},{"startTime":468.248,"endTime":471.428,"body":"what the real need is, right?"},{"startTime":471.738,"endTime":476.368,"body":"And then later on, not now, but later"},{"startTime":471.738,"endTime":476.368,"body":"on, you could come back to the customer"},{"startTime":476.368,"endTime":480.638,"body":"and say, Hey what would happen if you if"},{"startTime":476.368,"endTime":480.638,"body":"we gave you X where X is close to what"},{"startTime":480.638,"endTime":482.318,"body":"you wanted, but it's not exactly that."},{"startTime":482.338,"endTime":484.938,"body":"What's the impact of that"},{"startTime":482.338,"endTime":484.938,"body":"to you as a customer?"},{"startTime":485.088,"endTime":489.268,"body":"I think it behooves you to understand that"},{"startTime":485.088,"endTime":489.268,"body":"landscape because you really can't build"},{"startTime":489.268,"endTime":491.118,"body":"a solution that meets their exact needs."},{"startTime":491.268,"endTime":493.768,"body":"Any other way, in my opinion, I"},{"startTime":491.268,"endTime":493.768,"body":"mean, how are you going to do that?"},{"startTime":494.028,"endTime":497.098,"body":"You'll assume things, you'll"},{"startTime":494.028,"endTime":497.098,"body":"believe certain things in your"},{"startTime":497.098,"endTime":500.868,"body":"mind, you'll certainly look at your"},{"startTime":497.098,"endTime":500.868,"body":"experience or collective experience"},{"startTime":500.868,"endTime":503.258,"body":"of architect, product manager, etc."},{"startTime":503.408,"endTime":507.898,"body":"And dream up a solution, go develop"},{"startTime":503.408,"endTime":507.898,"body":"it and position it to the customer"},{"startTime":507.898,"endTime":509.232,"body":"and go, this is what we got for you."},{"startTime":509.382,"endTime":512.592,"body":"Only to be surprised when they"},{"startTime":509.382,"endTime":512.592,"body":"say, it's not quite what we wanted."},{"startTime":512.742,"endTime":517.002,"body":"Yeah, I mean, plus if you're solo in that"},{"startTime":512.742,"endTime":517.002,"body":"fact finding expedition over there what's"},{"startTime":517.002,"endTime":520.182,"body":"it like, what's the chances you're going"},{"startTime":517.002,"endTime":520.182,"body":"to go on safari by yourself and come back?"},{"startTime":520.182,"endTime":521.862,"body":"Like, it's better to bring"},{"startTime":520.182,"endTime":521.862,"body":"other people with you."},{"startTime":522.012,"endTime":523.312,"body":"Talking to customers, same thing."},{"startTime":523.552,"endTime":527.172,"body":"Are you going to be talking to"},{"startTime":523.552,"endTime":527.172,"body":"customers, and you're going to get"},{"startTime":527.252,"endTime":530.722,"body":"every single nuance of what they said,"},{"startTime":527.252,"endTime":530.722,"body":"and that's going to be your opinion."},{"startTime":530.732,"endTime":534.182,"body":"Rather than two or three people taking"},{"startTime":530.732,"endTime":534.182,"body":"notes and remembering the conversation and"},{"startTime":534.182,"endTime":538.152,"body":"comparing those notes to talk about what"},{"startTime":534.182,"endTime":538.152,"body":"you all think you heard it's, it's just"},{"startTime":538.162,"endTime":540.282,"body":"better with more than one person always."},{"startTime":540.282,"endTime":543.382,"body":"Yeah, absolutely agree on, on"},{"startTime":540.282,"endTime":543.382,"body":"field trips as I call them."},{"startTime":543.422,"endTime":547.732,"body":"When we used to go out and my role in"},{"startTime":543.422,"endTime":547.732,"body":"this in this particular exercise with a"},{"startTime":547.732,"endTime":549.932,"body":"previous employer was not product manager."},{"startTime":550.002,"endTime":555.622,"body":"Yeah, I was simply going in there to"},{"startTime":550.002,"endTime":555.622,"body":"help sales and marketing with sizing"},{"startTime":555.772,"endTime":557.572,"body":"capacity, those sorts of things as a."},{"startTime":557.722,"endTime":561.672,"body":"Project manager, basically, but we"},{"startTime":557.722,"endTime":561.672,"body":"would listen, we would observe, and"},{"startTime":561.672,"endTime":565.272,"body":"then in the evening we'd get back"},{"startTime":561.672,"endTime":565.272,"body":"together at the hotel and say, here's"},{"startTime":565.272,"endTime":568.332,"body":"what I heard, and somebody would say,"},{"startTime":565.272,"endTime":568.332,"body":"I didn't hear that, I'm glad you caught"},{"startTime":568.332,"endTime":572.522,"body":"that, and we'd collect our notes,"},{"startTime":568.332,"endTime":572.522,"body":"and we'd come up with more questions"},{"startTime":572.522,"endTime":574.512,"body":"to ask the following morning, right?"},{"startTime":574.762,"endTime":576.962,"body":"Now these questions that we"},{"startTime":574.762,"endTime":576.962,"body":"ask the following morning"},{"startTime":576.962,"endTime":578.897,"body":"are At the next level, right?"},{"startTime":578.897,"endTime":581.497,"body":"Because we just kind of scratch"},{"startTime":578.897,"endTime":581.497,"body":"the surface the first day."},{"startTime":581.807,"endTime":583.047,"body":"So, I agree."},{"startTime":583.047,"endTime":585.517,"body":"I think the power of multiple"},{"startTime":583.047,"endTime":585.517,"body":"minds is the key here."},{"startTime":585.657,"endTime":585.897,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":586.047,"endTime":587.817,"body":"Yeah, there's really no reason to argue."},{"startTime":587.877,"endTime":591.747,"body":"You can just go and ask the customer,"},{"startTime":587.877,"endTime":591.747,"body":"hey when you said this, Some people"},{"startTime":591.757,"endTime":595.017,"body":"thought this, some people thought"},{"startTime":591.757,"endTime":595.017,"body":"whatever what is the right answer?"},{"startTime":595.017,"endTime":596.167,"body":"You know, what did you really mean?"},{"startTime":596.317,"endTime":597.327,"body":"Can you elaborate on that?"},{"startTime":597.337,"endTime":601.997,"body":"Like that's like a five minute call"},{"startTime":597.337,"endTime":601.997,"body":"or actually it's a an email actually."},{"startTime":602.147,"endTime":602.577,"body":"Can be."},{"startTime":602.627,"endTime":603.547,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"startTime":603.617,"endTime":603.897,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":604.047,"endTime":607.577,"body":"We talked a lot about the product manager"},{"startTime":604.047,"endTime":607.577,"body":"talking to customers and being the one"},{"startTime":607.577,"endTime":609.857,"body":"saying, oh, I know what the customer"},{"startTime":607.577,"endTime":609.857,"body":"needs because I've talked to the customer."},{"startTime":610.007,"endTime":614.557,"body":"But what about in, I would imagine in"},{"startTime":610.007,"endTime":614.557,"body":"a lot of shops out there, The product"},{"startTime":614.587,"endTime":618.447,"body":"manager is way too busy, especially in"},{"startTime":614.587,"endTime":618.447,"body":"shops where like the product manager is"},{"startTime":618.457,"endTime":620.537,"body":"more like a marketing type of person."},{"startTime":620.757,"endTime":621.067,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":621.067,"endTime":621.337,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":621.377,"endTime":624.957,"body":"And they don't really do the work"},{"startTime":621.377,"endTime":624.957,"body":"of, Oh, that talking to customers"},{"startTime":624.957,"endTime":626.027,"body":"and come up with solutions."},{"startTime":626.027,"endTime":627.047,"body":"That's the development team."},{"startTime":627.047,"endTime":627.817,"body":"They, they do that."},{"startTime":628.107,"endTime":630.367,"body":"So there'll be a proxy in place."},{"startTime":630.517,"endTime":634.097,"body":"And that proxy, sometimes that proxy is"},{"startTime":630.517,"endTime":634.097,"body":"a business analyst, which I honestly,"},{"startTime":634.097,"endTime":636.397,"body":"I'm kind of like, I'm, I'm on the fence."},{"startTime":636.732,"endTime":641.032,"body":"Whether to say like the least damage can"},{"startTime":636.732,"endTime":641.032,"body":"be done with a visit with actual business"},{"startTime":641.032,"endTime":644.922,"body":"analysts rather than just like a random"},{"startTime":641.032,"endTime":644.922,"body":"I, sometimes I've seen like a dev lead or"},{"startTime":644.922,"endTime":650.192,"body":"an architect trying to be the PO proxy PO"},{"startTime":644.922,"endTime":650.192,"body":"type of situation cause companies cheap."},{"startTime":650.342,"endTime":650.782,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":650.932,"endTime":653.852,"body":"A real business analyst"},{"startTime":650.932,"endTime":653.852,"body":"with their salt would have a"},{"startTime":653.852,"endTime":655.762,"body":"particular set of skills, right?"},{"startTime":655.912,"endTime":657.702,"body":"And they can ask the right questions."},{"startTime":657.852,"endTime":659.172,"body":"It's valuable to have that."},{"startTime":659.322,"endTime":662.732,"body":"But I think it's important to"},{"startTime":659.322,"endTime":662.732,"body":"make sure that we're not simply"},{"startTime":662.732,"endTime":667.322,"body":"representing one facet of our"},{"startTime":662.732,"endTime":667.322,"body":"organization with the customer."},{"startTime":667.582,"endTime":671.842,"body":"Just the business analyst alone, they're"},{"startTime":667.582,"endTime":671.842,"body":"going to be very, well, analytical, right?"},{"startTime":671.992,"endTime":676.222,"body":"You may have somebody who asks"},{"startTime":671.992,"endTime":676.222,"body":"questions that are completely lateral."},{"startTime":676.372,"endTime":680.092,"body":"To the situation I had, and that"},{"startTime":676.372,"endTime":680.092,"body":"may unearth certain things, which"},{"startTime":680.092,"endTime":681.722,"body":"could be crucial to the situation."},{"startTime":681.872,"endTime":685.682,"body":"Somebody who is really vested in, you"},{"startTime":681.872,"endTime":685.682,"body":"said earlier, solution mode, right?"},{"startTime":685.722,"endTime":687.422,"body":"People have this tendency to do that."},{"startTime":687.452,"endTime":691.892,"body":"So if you're vested in just that,"},{"startTime":687.452,"endTime":691.892,"body":"or if your business analyst is"},{"startTime":691.892,"endTime":696.012,"body":"going to focus on, this is the old"},{"startTime":691.892,"endTime":696.012,"body":"way of thinking, but still, right?"},{"startTime":696.242,"endTime":698.862,"body":"Document the as is and the to be."},{"startTime":699.012,"endTime":702.262,"body":"Those are two states, but there's"},{"startTime":699.012,"endTime":702.262,"body":"a lot in between them, right?"},{"startTime":702.422,"endTime":705.192,"body":"And  from the customer's point of"},{"startTime":702.422,"endTime":705.192,"body":"view, who are you speaking with?"},{"startTime":705.262,"endTime":706.242,"body":"Is it one person?"},{"startTime":706.392,"endTime":707.372,"body":"What is their role?"},{"startTime":707.422,"endTime":709.752,"body":"Are they only telling you about"},{"startTime":707.422,"endTime":709.752,"body":"it from their perspective?"},{"startTime":710.012,"endTime":712.142,"body":"Or are you getting a"},{"startTime":710.012,"endTime":712.142,"body":"full holistic picture?"},{"startTime":712.292,"endTime":712.572,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":712.572,"endTime":717.277,"body":"So, we need to not only have a"},{"startTime":712.572,"endTime":717.277,"body":"Multitude of people asking the"},{"startTime":717.277,"endTime":720.847,"body":"customer these questions, but we need"},{"startTime":717.277,"endTime":720.847,"body":"all of those roles represented that"},{"startTime":720.847,"endTime":722.867,"body":"will be Affected by the solution."},{"startTime":722.937,"endTime":726.367,"body":"We're in a real thin niche right"},{"startTime":722.937,"endTime":726.367,"body":"here about a business analyst who's"},{"startTime":726.367,"endTime":728.157,"body":"a proxy product owner right now."},{"startTime":728.307,"endTime":734.107,"body":"But I'm going to focus on the pros of"},{"startTime":728.307,"endTime":734.107,"body":"having this person in that position."},{"startTime":734.107,"endTime":736.377,"body":"Like, it's, it's, everyone"},{"startTime":734.107,"endTime":736.377,"body":"knows it's not ideal."},{"startTime":736.427,"endTime":739.967,"body":"You'd rather have the empowered product"},{"startTime":736.427,"endTime":739.967,"body":"owner for the team doing this role."},{"startTime":740.027,"endTime":743.287,"body":"But, but, the advantages of having"},{"startTime":740.027,"endTime":743.287,"body":"if you actually have a business"},{"startTime":743.287,"endTime":746.077,"body":"analyst, a real business analyst,"},{"startTime":743.287,"endTime":746.077,"body":"Doing this, I don't know, as"},{"startTime":746.077,"endTime":747.377,"body":"opposed to a fake business analyst."},{"startTime":747.527,"endTime":750.047,"body":"Somebody who just has a"},{"startTime":747.527,"endTime":750.047,"body":"bra and a hat that says BA."},{"startTime":750.097,"endTime":752.707,"body":"I don't know I just, I don't,"},{"startTime":750.097,"endTime":752.707,"body":"does that really happen?"},{"startTime":752.857,"endTime":756.277,"body":"I don't, I don't, I don't challenge"},{"startTime":752.857,"endTime":756.277,"body":"myself in the middle of a thought,"},{"startTime":756.567,"endTime":760.777,"body":"but I think people just like putting"},{"startTime":756.567,"endTime":760.777,"body":"on the hat of product manager"},{"startTime":760.927,"endTime":763.977,"body":"when they're really something else"},{"startTime":760.927,"endTime":763.977,"body":"is way more likely than somebody"},{"startTime":763.977,"endTime":765.517,"body":"putting on a business analyst hat."},{"startTime":765.637,"endTime":765.957,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":766.227,"endTime":771.627,"body":"I think the business analysts probably"},{"startTime":766.227,"endTime":771.627,"body":"are business analysts in more Often than"},{"startTime":771.627,"endTime":773.507,"body":"the product managers are product managers."},{"startTime":773.737,"endTime":774.337,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":774.377,"endTime":775.777,"body":"Like we're gonna get"},{"startTime":774.377,"endTime":775.777,"body":"into trouble in this one."},{"startTime":775.927,"endTime":779.107,"body":"Well, that's fine That's what we're"},{"startTime":775.927,"endTime":779.107,"body":"arguing as you know, I agree with you."},{"startTime":779.107,"endTime":782.607,"body":"First of all, there's so many"},{"startTime":779.107,"endTime":782.607,"body":"people that are Out there, self"},{"startTime":782.627,"endTime":784.857,"body":"proclaimed product managers."},{"startTime":784.867,"endTime":785.387,"body":"Self titled."},{"startTime":785.397,"endTime":786.157,"body":"Self titled."},{"startTime":786.187,"endTime":789.767,"body":"And they have not really had any"},{"startTime":786.187,"endTime":789.767,"body":"product experience to speak of."},{"startTime":789.917,"endTime":790.327,"body":"But yeah."},{"startTime":790.328,"endTime":790.817,"body":"Yikes."},{"startTime":790.817,"endTime":791.037,"body":"Yikes."},{"startTime":791.047,"endTime":794.757,"body":"So assuming we give this business"},{"startTime":791.047,"endTime":794.757,"body":"analyst the full credence they"},{"startTime":794.757,"endTime":796.467,"body":"deserve, which is they are a real BA."},{"startTime":796.467,"endTime":796.777,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":796.847,"endTime":798.307,"body":"They're going into the situation."},{"startTime":798.457,"endTime":800.657,"body":"Yeah, the cons are several, actually."},{"startTime":800.677,"endTime":802.587,"body":"So they're going to ask"},{"startTime":800.677,"endTime":802.587,"body":"the right questions."},{"startTime":802.647,"endTime":806.307,"body":"They're going to ask questions from the"},{"startTime":802.647,"endTime":806.307,"body":"perspective of the behavior, typically."},{"startTime":806.327,"endTime":806.647,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":806.797,"endTime":807.867,"body":"That's good, I think."},{"startTime":808.017,"endTime":811.967,"body":"Right, they're gonna ask questions from"},{"startTime":808.017,"endTime":811.967,"body":"the perspective of personas, perhaps."},{"startTime":811.997,"endTime":813.337,"body":"Right, well, that's just fantastic."},{"startTime":813.367,"endTime":815.937,"body":"Those are all the pros that I was gonna,"},{"startTime":813.367,"endTime":815.937,"body":"that I was gonna assign to this role, is"},{"startTime":815.937,"endTime":819.387,"body":"that if you have somebody who understands"},{"startTime":815.937,"endTime":819.387,"body":"how to, how to conduct research."},{"startTime":819.387,"endTime":822.777,"body":"This is the same thing, there's a job out"},{"startTime":819.387,"endTime":822.777,"body":"there, a UX researcher right now, it's"},{"startTime":822.797,"endTime":825.207,"body":"getting a lot of attention on LinkedIn,"},{"startTime":822.797,"endTime":825.207,"body":"something like that, UX researcher."},{"startTime":825.487,"endTime":828.817,"body":", they're doing a lot of similar things"},{"startTime":825.487,"endTime":828.817,"body":"that the business analysts do in"},{"startTime":828.817,"endTime":830.377,"body":"terms of like, I'm gonna experiment."},{"startTime":830.377,"endTime":833.527,"body":"I, I wanna understand why this path"},{"startTime":830.377,"endTime":833.527,"body":"was taken and not this path, or"},{"startTime":833.527,"endTime":836.437,"body":"why this path led to the user not"},{"startTime":833.527,"endTime":836.437,"body":"understanding how to do things."},{"startTime":836.437,"endTime":838.837,"body":"Like business analysts will do"},{"startTime":836.437,"endTime":838.837,"body":"all, they'll do the analysis,"},{"startTime":838.842,"endTime":841.507,"body":"they'll do the research, they'll"},{"startTime":838.842,"endTime":841.507,"body":"do the legwork, basically."},{"startTime":841.597,"endTime":841.807,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":841.867,"endTime":845.977,"body":"To really understand why the customer's"},{"startTime":841.867,"endTime":845.977,"body":"doing what they're doing, and then they"},{"startTime":845.977,"endTime":847.837,"body":"can translate those customer needs."},{"startTime":847.888,"endTime":851.367,"body":"actionable requirements."},{"startTime":851.467,"endTime":854.357,"body":"the business analyst can say, this"},{"startTime":851.467,"endTime":854.357,"body":"is what the customer needs and"},{"startTime":854.357,"endTime":856.917,"body":"this is where the, this is where"},{"startTime":854.357,"endTime":856.917,"body":"the pitfalls are or whatever."},{"startTime":857.067,"endTime":859.247,"body":"And this is what we could do."},{"startTime":859.537,"endTime":862.627,"body":"Like, here's a few, a few places we"},{"startTime":859.537,"endTime":862.627,"body":"could address, there's a way they can"},{"startTime":862.627,"endTime":863.777,"body":"do it where they're not solutioning."},{"startTime":863.807,"endTime":868.837,"body":"They're, they're just purely pointing"},{"startTime":863.807,"endTime":868.837,"body":"out that you know, path a is ends in a"},{"startTime":868.937,"endTime":874.037,"body":"ends in a cul de sac, path B ends off a"},{"startTime":868.937,"endTime":874.037,"body":"cliff, in doing that, they are now like"},{"startTime":874.037,"endTime":879.537,"body":"a, a advocate for the customer inside"},{"startTime":874.037,"endTime":879.537,"body":"of the organization while the design"},{"startTime":879.537,"endTime":882.917,"body":"of the software is happening, while the"},{"startTime":879.537,"endTime":882.917,"body":"software is being crafted basically."},{"startTime":883.067,"endTime":885.647,"body":"And you, you could say like, well,"},{"startTime":883.067,"endTime":885.647,"body":"the product manager can do that too."},{"startTime":885.967,"endTime":886.477,"body":"You sure."},{"startTime":886.717,"endTime":889.807,"body":"But again, in the organization where"},{"startTime":886.717,"endTime":889.807,"body":"you have business analysts, I'm"},{"startTime":889.807,"endTime":893.767,"body":"assuming you're somewhat larger of an"},{"startTime":889.807,"endTime":893.767,"body":"organization and the idea of deploying"},{"startTime":893.767,"endTime":897.867,"body":"the business analysts and not the"},{"startTime":893.767,"endTime":897.867,"body":"product person is the product person"},{"startTime":897.867,"endTime":903.187,"body":"probably has a bunch of other more"},{"startTime":897.867,"endTime":903.187,"body":"marketing centric type activities and"},{"startTime":903.187,"endTime":907.837,"body":"they're trying to hand off these day"},{"startTime":903.187,"endTime":907.837,"body":"to day type of things to somebody else."},{"startTime":907.987,"endTime":910.147,"body":"Definitely, definitely that"},{"startTime":907.987,"endTime":910.147,"body":"should be the scenario."},{"startTime":910.167,"endTime":910.857,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":911.187,"endTime":915.447,"body":"I think a product manager who is"},{"startTime":911.187,"endTime":915.447,"body":"more, how should I put it more aware"},{"startTime":915.447,"endTime":920.807,"body":"of the offerings of their company,"},{"startTime":915.447,"endTime":920.807,"body":"they may be more involved at a"},{"startTime":920.807,"endTime":925.507,"body":"lower level, as opposed to a product"},{"startTime":920.807,"endTime":925.507,"body":"manager who Has BAs and simply is"},{"startTime":925.507,"endTime":927.137,"body":"going to say, well, you go, right?"},{"startTime":927.387,"endTime":930.937,"body":"I'll make sure that the calls are arranged"},{"startTime":927.387,"endTime":930.937,"body":"or the meetings are arranged, etc."},{"startTime":930.937,"endTime":931.617,"body":"That's fine, too."},{"startTime":931.767,"endTime":934.367,"body":"I think it depends on the scale"},{"startTime":931.767,"endTime":934.367,"body":"of the company, as you said."},{"startTime":934.517,"endTime":937.097,"body":"So yeah, we touched on the"},{"startTime":934.517,"endTime":937.097,"body":"cons, I'm sorry, pros, right?"},{"startTime":937.347,"endTime":941.637,"body":"What are some of the cons of sending a"},{"startTime":937.347,"endTime":941.637,"body":"business analyst type of person, right?"},{"startTime":941.787,"endTime":946.077,"body":"Into a situation like this to find out"},{"startTime":941.787,"endTime":946.077,"body":"about real customer requirements or needs?"},{"startTime":946.207,"endTime":950.097,"body":"I mean, the, the immediate con is,"},{"startTime":946.207,"endTime":950.097,"body":"either one of two things I think"},{"startTime":950.097,"endTime":952.957,"body":"would happen, I'm not quite sure, I"},{"startTime":950.097,"endTime":952.957,"body":"haven't really thought this through"},{"startTime":952.957,"endTime":956.587,"body":"very much, so it's like any other"},{"startTime":952.957,"endTime":956.587,"body":"podcast topic that we talk about like,"},{"startTime":956.657,"endTime":961.547,"body":"either they'll only ever be working on"},{"startTime":956.657,"endTime":961.547,"body":"the latest fire they'll only ever be"},{"startTime":961.557,"endTime":965.857,"body":"exactly where the latest fire is, or"},{"startTime":961.557,"endTime":965.857,"body":"They'll be so far ahead that you you"},{"startTime":965.857,"endTime":971.357,"body":"don't and because and because the VA"},{"startTime":965.857,"endTime":971.357,"body":"isn't empowered with prioritization They"},{"startTime":971.357,"endTime":974.987,"body":"may be taking requirements for something"},{"startTime":971.357,"endTime":974.987,"body":"that we may never build Yeah, I think"},{"startTime":974.997,"endTime":978.827,"body":"that danger is very real because they"},{"startTime":974.997,"endTime":978.827,"body":"can't make decisions So they're gonna"},{"startTime":978.827,"endTime":982.267,"body":"basically collate more than they need"},{"startTime":978.827,"endTime":982.267,"body":"right so you'll have the wheat and the"},{"startTime":982.267,"endTime":986.677,"body":"shaft together and Pass it on to somebody"},{"startTime":982.267,"endTime":986.677,"body":"to make the decisions now because"},{"startTime":986.847,"endTime":988.517,"body":"they're not empowered to do that, right?"},{"startTime":988.597,"endTime":991.457,"body":"Are they empowered to"},{"startTime":988.597,"endTime":991.457,"body":"even prioritize that list?"},{"startTime":991.697,"endTime":992.757,"body":"Perhaps, perhaps not."},{"startTime":992.957,"endTime":994.097,"body":"In most companies, they're not."},{"startTime":994.247,"endTime":995.247,"body":"Or they're afraid to."},{"startTime":995.517,"endTime":997.237,"body":"So then, who makes these calls?"},{"startTime":997.537,"endTime":999.117,"body":"Is it a product owner"},{"startTime":997.537,"endTime":999.117,"body":"or a product manager?"},{"startTime":999.367,"endTime":1002.457,"body":"Now they've got way too"},{"startTime":999.367,"endTime":1002.457,"body":"much to wade through, right?"},{"startTime":1002.457,"endTime":1005.167,"body":"To figure out what are the real"},{"startTime":1002.457,"endTime":1005.167,"body":"footprints that you're looking for."},{"startTime":1005.457,"endTime":1007.417,"body":"So yeah, that's a real concern to me."},{"startTime":1007.657,"endTime":1012.847,"body":"The other real concern is the BA is"},{"startTime":1007.657,"endTime":1012.847,"body":"not likely to challenge you know what"},{"startTime":1012.847,"endTime":1016.657,"body":"they're hearing right from the customer"},{"startTime":1012.847,"endTime":1016.657,"body":"because, well, it's the customer telling"},{"startTime":1016.657,"endTime":1020.427,"body":"you, doesn't matter who it is, they're"},{"startTime":1016.657,"endTime":1020.427,"body":"from the customer side, so to speak and"},{"startTime":1020.427,"endTime":1023.167,"body":"so they're going to just take things"},{"startTime":1020.427,"endTime":1023.167,"body":"down verbatim without challenging"},{"startTime":1023.217,"endTime":1027.617,"body":"I've been lucky enough to be partnered"},{"startTime":1023.217,"endTime":1027.617,"body":"with a lot of talented, very talented"},{"startTime":1027.757,"endTime":1030.457,"body":"BAs, but they don't necessarily"},{"startTime":1027.757,"endTime":1030.457,"body":"have the vision for the future."},{"startTime":1030.507,"endTime":1031.777,"body":"I mean, they, they may know enough."},{"startTime":1031.907,"endTime":1035.947,"body":"to be able to construct some likely"},{"startTime":1031.907,"endTime":1035.947,"body":"futures, but they're not like the"},{"startTime":1035.957,"endTime":1039.687,"body":"business leader that is painting a"},{"startTime":1035.957,"endTime":1039.687,"body":"vision of the future for the whole"},{"startTime":1039.687,"endTime":1041.077,"body":"department or product or whatever."},{"startTime":1041.227,"endTime":1043.317,"body":"They're not really, that's not their job."},{"startTime":1043.327,"endTime":1045.257,"body":"Basically they're not at the vision level."},{"startTime":1045.427,"endTime":1049.427,"body":"a lot of BAs that I've seen that"},{"startTime":1045.427,"endTime":1049.427,"body":"they just jumped from fire to fire."},{"startTime":1049.562,"endTime":1053.792,"body":"You know, figure out why this failure"},{"startTime":1049.562,"endTime":1053.792,"body":"happened and then we'll talk about in"},{"startTime":1053.792,"endTime":1056.912,"body":"the next sprint or the next two sprints"},{"startTime":1053.792,"endTime":1056.912,"body":"or whatever, we'll do a percentage of"},{"startTime":1056.912,"endTime":1060.612,"body":"work to try to pay down this technical"},{"startTime":1056.912,"endTime":1060.612,"body":"debt, but I need to understand it."},{"startTime":1060.612,"endTime":1064.552,"body":"So get in there and figure it out or get"},{"startTime":1060.612,"endTime":1064.552,"body":"in with this customer and figure out what"},{"startTime":1064.552,"endTime":1067.282,"body":"we can do to resolve their problems with."},{"startTime":1067.602,"endTime":1070.302,"body":"You know, I'm willing to throw two"},{"startTime":1067.602,"endTime":1070.302,"body":"sprints of work at it to figure"},{"startTime":1070.302,"endTime":1071.362,"body":"out what we can do in that time."},{"startTime":1071.522,"endTime":1076.312,"body":"What they're working on is such, it's"},{"startTime":1071.522,"endTime":1076.312,"body":"so like micro slices that they're not"},{"startTime":1076.312,"endTime":1081.092,"body":"working on the large, broad picture,"},{"startTime":1076.312,"endTime":1081.092,"body":"like a product manager should be."},{"startTime":1081.242,"endTime":1082.202,"body":"Agreed, absolutely."},{"startTime":1082.212,"endTime":1085.122,"body":"So their, their kind of approach"},{"startTime":1082.212,"endTime":1085.122,"body":"is more tactical, right?"},{"startTime":1085.142,"endTime":1085.292,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1085.572,"endTime":1087.752,"body":"You know, in terms of like"},{"startTime":1085.572,"endTime":1087.752,"body":"the immediate few sprints."},{"startTime":1088.012,"endTime":1092.282,"body":"Now, I, I will say I have"},{"startTime":1088.012,"endTime":1092.282,"body":"been, I have been at companies."},{"startTime":1092.432,"endTime":1097.862,"body":"The BA will be deployed when a project"},{"startTime":1092.432,"endTime":1097.862,"body":"begins to sort of bring together like"},{"startTime":1097.862,"endTime":1102.042,"body":"a like a, a charter or something like,"},{"startTime":1097.862,"endTime":1102.042,"body":"I'm like, this is, this was more like a"},{"startTime":1102.152,"endTime":1106.252,"body":"PMP project manager type of organization"},{"startTime":1102.152,"endTime":1106.252,"body":"that the, the, all the project managers"},{"startTime":1106.252,"endTime":1108.252,"body":"had BAs that were basically staffed."},{"startTime":1108.402,"endTime":1112.002,"body":"On their projects, like a project manager"},{"startTime":1108.402,"endTime":1112.002,"body":"wouldn't ever go anywhere alone at this"},{"startTime":1112.032,"endTime":1113.732,"body":"particular company that I'm thinking of."},{"startTime":1113.982,"endTime":1116.402,"body":"They would, they would always have a"},{"startTime":1113.982,"endTime":1116.402,"body":"BA with them and the BA would basically"},{"startTime":1116.402,"endTime":1118.362,"body":"say like, hey, we need to scope this."},{"startTime":1118.442,"endTime":1122.242,"body":"So in that, in that instance, the"},{"startTime":1118.442,"endTime":1122.242,"body":"BA was putting together, I guess I'm"},{"startTime":1122.242,"endTime":1123.312,"body":"contradicting what I said earlier."},{"startTime":1123.532,"endTime":1128.032,"body":"In that instance, the BA was putting"},{"startTime":1123.532,"endTime":1128.032,"body":"together sort of a A vision of what"},{"startTime":1128.042,"endTime":1131.132,"body":"the product was, but it was a, it"},{"startTime":1128.042,"endTime":1131.132,"body":"wasn't a product, it was a project."},{"startTime":1131.182,"endTime":1135.042,"body":"So the BA, like it was, the project was"},{"startTime":1131.182,"endTime":1135.042,"body":"bounded by the beginning and the end"},{"startTime":1135.192,"endTime":1137.492,"body":"of the project manager's project plan."},{"startTime":1137.642,"endTime":1139.522,"body":"So everything was temporary,"},{"startTime":1137.642,"endTime":1139.522,"body":"it was all temporary."},{"startTime":1139.542,"endTime":1142.542,"body":"They tend to work a lot on the"},{"startTime":1139.542,"endTime":1142.542,"body":"scope side of things as well, right?"},{"startTime":1142.562,"endTime":1144.222,"body":"Yeah, other than the charter, I agree."},{"startTime":1144.372,"endTime":1144.662,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1144.812,"endTime":1147.932,"body":"We touched on it in our conversation,"},{"startTime":1144.812,"endTime":1147.932,"body":"but we really didn't go into detail"},{"startTime":1147.932,"endTime":1151.622,"body":"of now I can't gather and like, I"},{"startTime":1147.932,"endTime":1151.622,"body":"can't engage in anything because the"},{"startTime":1151.622,"endTime":1154.242,"body":"BA hasn't put their hands on things"},{"startTime":1151.622,"endTime":1154.242,"body":"and figure out the requirements."},{"startTime":1154.242,"endTime":1157.972,"body":"So now everything that I need to"},{"startTime":1154.242,"endTime":1157.972,"body":"bring to my development teams goes"},{"startTime":1157.972,"endTime":1159.062,"body":"through the bottleneck of the BA."},{"startTime":1159.212,"endTime":1162.002,"body":"Yeah, this creates a stage"},{"startTime":1159.212,"endTime":1162.002,"body":"gate at that point, right?"},{"startTime":1162.032,"endTime":1165.552,"body":"What would happen instead if you"},{"startTime":1162.032,"endTime":1165.552,"body":"had a few of your team members?"},{"startTime":1165.702,"endTime":1168.172,"body":"Could be a team lead or"},{"startTime":1165.702,"endTime":1168.172,"body":"a tech lead, whoever."},{"startTime":1168.322,"endTime":1171.822,"body":"Engage with the customer during"},{"startTime":1168.322,"endTime":1171.822,"body":"that discovery phase, right?"},{"startTime":1172.012,"endTime":1173.322,"body":"They could be asking the questions."},{"startTime":1173.472,"endTime":1176.492,"body":"And some of these questions I mentioned"},{"startTime":1173.472,"endTime":1176.492,"body":"earlier, they could be questions"},{"startTime":1176.492,"endTime":1180.962,"body":"that are tangential, but not really"},{"startTime":1176.492,"endTime":1180.962,"body":"completely Out of the scope necessarily,"},{"startTime":1181.262,"endTime":1185.222,"body":"they may ask things like, well if"},{"startTime":1181.262,"endTime":1185.222,"body":"we do it this way, what, what does"},{"startTime":1185.222,"endTime":1188.782,"body":"that mean for you from, from your"},{"startTime":1185.222,"endTime":1188.782,"body":"security posture, for example, right?"},{"startTime":1188.982,"endTime":1189.612,"body":"Things like that."},{"startTime":1189.892,"endTime":1194.112,"body":"And from there, you could really hone"},{"startTime":1189.892,"endTime":1194.112,"body":"in on what can work for the customer."},{"startTime":1194.262,"endTime":1197.062,"body":"Your team can avoid a lot of"},{"startTime":1194.262,"endTime":1197.062,"body":"rework as a result of that."},{"startTime":1197.242,"endTime":1200.132,"body":"And all for having"},{"startTime":1197.242,"endTime":1200.132,"body":"somebody else with the B."},{"startTime":1200.132,"endTime":1200.402,"body":"A."},{"startTime":1200.412,"endTime":1205.217,"body":"or the product manager, product owner,"},{"startTime":1200.412,"endTime":1205.217,"body":"because presumably There comes a time"},{"startTime":1205.257,"endTime":1207.317,"body":"where people need to talk technical."},{"startTime":1207.467,"endTime":1208.707,"body":"I mean, real technical, right?"},{"startTime":1208.947,"endTime":1211.267,"body":"Beyond which cloud service"},{"startTime":1208.947,"endTime":1211.267,"body":"provider we're going to use."},{"startTime":1211.417,"endTime":1213.137,"body":"It's way lower than that."},{"startTime":1213.287,"endTime":1214.717,"body":"This is where I think the B."},{"startTime":1214.717,"endTime":1214.827,"body":"A."},{"startTime":1214.867,"endTime":1218.757,"body":"can help recognizing that situation"},{"startTime":1214.867,"endTime":1218.757,"body":"and bringing those people in."},{"startTime":1218.907,"endTime":1221.777,"body":"It doesn't have to be the first"},{"startTime":1218.907,"endTime":1221.777,"body":"meeting with the customer."},{"startTime":1221.807,"endTime":1223.357,"body":"It can be a series of meetings."},{"startTime":1223.357,"endTime":1224.617,"body":"It could be after the first one."},{"startTime":1224.947,"endTime":1229.167,"body":"But at some point, bring those guys in"},{"startTime":1224.947,"endTime":1229.167,"body":"and they will help you Either avoid rework"},{"startTime":1229.317,"endTime":1234.227,"body":"or making sure that you're you're working"},{"startTime":1229.317,"endTime":1234.227,"body":"on the right path for that solution."},{"startTime":1234.227,"endTime":1237.477,"body":"So the solution set is what I like"},{"startTime":1234.227,"endTime":1237.477,"body":"to call fit for purpose, right?"},{"startTime":1237.627,"endTime":1240.317,"body":"All right, let's pivot into one of my"},{"startTime":1237.627,"endTime":1240.317,"body":"favorite categories that we're going"},{"startTime":1240.317,"endTime":1243.597,"body":"to talk about today, which is my boss"},{"startTime":1240.317,"endTime":1243.597,"body":"told me it's what the customer needs."},{"startTime":1243.757,"endTime":1244.947,"body":"That doesn't happen, right?"},{"startTime":1245.017,"endTime":1246.567,"body":"Oh, it happens all the time."},{"startTime":1246.707,"endTime":1250.282,"body":"The room and says, Hey, I, I,"},{"startTime":1246.707,"endTime":1250.282,"body":"This is what the customer needs."},{"startTime":1250.312,"endTime":1251.112,"body":"What do you do then?"},{"startTime":1251.262,"endTime":1251.572,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1251.602,"endTime":1253.922,"body":"I know what the customer"},{"startTime":1251.602,"endTime":1253.922,"body":"needs and I'm your boss."},{"startTime":1253.972,"endTime":1254.292,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1254.442,"endTime":1256.492,"body":"Caption working in a feature factory."},{"startTime":1256.542,"endTime":1258.522,"body":"Like this is, this is"},{"startTime":1256.542,"endTime":1258.522,"body":"your part of the podcast."},{"startTime":1258.672,"endTime":1262.522,"body":"I mean, listen, your boss again, because"},{"startTime":1258.672,"endTime":1262.522,"body":"they don't work on development teams they"},{"startTime":1262.522,"endTime":1267.472,"body":"probably have either insight into the"},{"startTime":1262.522,"endTime":1267.472,"body":"business objectives that maybe you're in"},{"startTime":1267.482,"endTime":1269.392,"body":"you don't get exposed to every day, right?"},{"startTime":1269.542,"endTime":1272.582,"body":"or They may like you're"},{"startTime":1269.542,"endTime":1272.582,"body":"depending on the company."},{"startTime":1272.582,"endTime":1276.492,"body":"Your boss may have deep industry"},{"startTime":1272.582,"endTime":1276.492,"body":"experience And they might know"},{"startTime":1276.492,"endTime":1278.962,"body":"what they're talking about because"},{"startTime":1276.492,"endTime":1278.962,"body":"they've been in the role that"},{"startTime":1278.962,"endTime":1280.182,"body":"you're developing software for."},{"startTime":1280.382,"endTime":1283.202,"body":"I've been a couple with people"},{"startTime":1280.382,"endTime":1283.202,"body":"like that plenty of times."},{"startTime":1283.202,"endTime":1285.292,"body":"They've lots of domain expertise."},{"startTime":1285.442,"endTime":1286.232,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1286.232,"endTime":1289.232,"body":"I mean, that's certainly those are things"},{"startTime":1286.232,"endTime":1289.232,"body":"that I've seen before, but also I've"},{"startTime":1289.232,"endTime":1293.582,"body":"seen where your boss will come in and"},{"startTime":1289.232,"endTime":1293.582,"body":"say, this is what the customer wants."},{"startTime":1293.602,"endTime":1295.542,"body":"And they've really got no basis for that."},{"startTime":1295.692,"endTime":1296.052,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1296.352,"endTime":1298.642,"body":"When I say that, I don't mean"},{"startTime":1296.352,"endTime":1298.642,"body":"they're just making stuff up."},{"startTime":1298.662,"endTime":1300.102,"body":"Although I think sometimes they do."},{"startTime":1300.382,"endTime":1301.492,"body":"They will come in and say."},{"startTime":1301.642,"endTime":1304.882,"body":"I heard customers talk"},{"startTime":1301.642,"endTime":1304.882,"body":"about this stuff generally."},{"startTime":1305.032,"endTime":1309.292,"body":"And I've just kind of connected two"},{"startTime":1305.032,"endTime":1309.292,"body":"and two and come up with 22 in my"},{"startTime":1309.292,"endTime":1312.412,"body":"head and said, if they had this, I"},{"startTime":1309.292,"endTime":1312.412,"body":"think it's going to be great because"},{"startTime":1312.412,"endTime":1313.792,"body":"we can leapfrog the competition."},{"startTime":1313.942,"endTime":1315.582,"body":"These things happen, believe it or not."},{"startTime":1315.872,"endTime":1319.892,"body":"And these things cost companies"},{"startTime":1315.872,"endTime":1319.892,"body":"real dollars over time, right?"},{"startTime":1319.892,"endTime":1322.782,"body":"So, nine times out of ten people"},{"startTime":1319.892,"endTime":1322.782,"body":"though, to go back to your question,"},{"startTime":1322.782,"endTime":1325.222,"body":"when your boss comes in and says"},{"startTime":1322.782,"endTime":1325.222,"body":"this is what the customer needs,"},{"startTime":1325.372,"endTime":1326.542,"body":"they'll just say, yes, sir."},{"startTime":1326.692,"endTime":1327.362,"body":"Just get on with it."},{"startTime":1327.362,"endTime":1327.902,"body":"Yes, ma'am."},{"startTime":1327.972,"endTime":1332.962,"body":"Yeah, like the one the the thing that"},{"startTime":1327.972,"endTime":1332.962,"body":"always got me in trouble in this world"},{"startTime":1332.962,"endTime":1336.772,"body":"is What what leads you to believe that?"},{"startTime":1336.922,"endTime":1341.962,"body":"is that phrase which is partly responsible"},{"startTime":1336.922,"endTime":1341.962,"body":"for my transition into product because"},{"startTime":1341.982,"endTime":1346.552,"body":"in product you Can get away with asking"},{"startTime":1341.982,"endTime":1346.552,"body":"that because that's your job in product"},{"startTime":1346.562,"endTime":1349.562,"body":"to ask what leads you to believe and"},{"startTime":1346.562,"endTime":1349.562,"body":"that's a well the customer Told me"},{"startTime":1349.562,"endTime":1352.652,"body":"well now I need to know a little more"},{"startTime":1349.562,"endTime":1352.652,"body":"Because in order to ask follow up"},{"startTime":1352.652,"endTime":1356.652,"body":"questions, in order to verify when we"},{"startTime":1352.652,"endTime":1356.652,"body":"build these solutions, or when we come"},{"startTime":1356.652,"endTime":1360.172,"body":"up with wireframes or mock ups, I need"},{"startTime":1356.652,"endTime":1360.172,"body":"to go back to that customer and verify."},{"startTime":1360.382,"endTime":1362.462,"body":"You say it so much more"},{"startTime":1360.382,"endTime":1362.462,"body":"eloquently than I do."},{"startTime":1362.462,"endTime":1365.692,"body":"I usually just say, when the boss"},{"startTime":1362.462,"endTime":1365.692,"body":"says the customer needs this, I"},{"startTime":1365.692,"endTime":1366.852,"body":"always say, well, how do you know?"},{"startTime":1367.002,"endTime":1367.672,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1367.792,"endTime":1368.762,"body":"How do you know they need that?"},{"startTime":1368.912,"endTime":1371.422,"body":"And yeah, I'm that 11 out of 10."},{"startTime":1371.532,"endTime":1375.232,"body":"I mean, usually we're looking for"},{"startTime":1371.532,"endTime":1375.232,"body":"work shortly after, but, but whatever."},{"startTime":1375.262,"endTime":1375.512,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1375.512,"endTime":1377.552,"body":"We just say, how do you know?"},{"startTime":1377.702,"endTime":1380.352,"body":"The customer really needs"},{"startTime":1377.702,"endTime":1380.352,"body":"what you say they need."},{"startTime":1380.502,"endTime":1381.542,"body":"You heard something."},{"startTime":1381.722,"endTime":1382.752,"body":"Let's go validate that."},{"startTime":1382.752,"endTime":1384.302,"body":"Sounds like you're not a team player."},{"startTime":1384.302,"endTime":1385.182,"body":"I'm not a team player."},{"startTime":1385.482,"endTime":1386.412,"body":"No, I'm a rebel."},{"startTime":1386.612,"endTime":1388.522,"body":"Yes, get not team player"},{"startTime":1386.612,"endTime":1388.522,"body":"written all over you."},{"startTime":1388.532,"endTime":1389.162,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1389.232,"endTime":1389.652,"body":"Rebel."},{"startTime":1389.662,"endTime":1390.482,"body":"Just do what I say."},{"startTime":1390.592,"endTime":1391.072,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1391.272,"endTime":1392.032,"body":"Do as I say."},{"startTime":1392.042,"endTime":1393.192,"body":"And yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1393.212,"endTime":1396.542,"body":"So, I mean, look, if you're in,"},{"startTime":1393.212,"endTime":1396.542,"body":"if you're in a, I was going to"},{"startTime":1396.602,"endTime":1399.062,"body":"say if you're in product, but"},{"startTime":1396.602,"endTime":1399.062,"body":"really, whatever role you have."},{"startTime":1399.332,"endTime":1399.852,"body":"Could be any, yeah."},{"startTime":1399.852,"endTime":1404.062,"body":"Feel free to question this"},{"startTime":1399.852,"endTime":1404.062,"body":"and say, how do we know this?"},{"startTime":1404.212,"endTime":1406.912,"body":"Now you can contemporary your"},{"startTime":1404.212,"endTime":1406.912,"body":"question better than I do."},{"startTime":1406.972,"endTime":1408.232,"body":"I, I just say, how do you know?"},{"startTime":1408.532,"endTime":1411.352,"body":"But you can say, well, what"},{"startTime":1408.532,"endTime":1411.352,"body":"makes us believe that's right."},{"startTime":1411.352,"endTime":1412.882,"body":"That's really what they want."},{"startTime":1412.942,"endTime":1413.272,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1413.362,"endTime":1413.542,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1413.602,"endTime":1415.402,"body":"What have we done to validate that?"},{"startTime":1415.407,"endTime":1415.612,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1415.942,"endTime":1416.152,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1416.272,"endTime":1418.752,"body":"Can we perhaps engage the customer again?"},{"startTime":1419.052,"endTime":1419.262,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1419.262,"endTime":1419.502,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1419.507,"endTime":1423.618,"body":"And, and the red flag here would be"},{"startTime":1419.507,"endTime":1423.618,"body":"no, you build a solution and I'll go"},{"startTime":1423.618,"endTime":1424.908,"body":"back to the customer and verify it."},{"startTime":1424.908,"endTime":1425.508,"body":"Huge red flag."},{"startTime":1425.513,"endTime":1426.138,"body":"Huge red flag."},{"startTime":1426.138,"endTime":1429.888,"body":"Because, because, and, and like I"},{"startTime":1426.138,"endTime":1429.888,"body":"only say it's a red flag because."},{"startTime":1430.228,"endTime":1433.558,"body":"Product managers have this problem as"},{"startTime":1430.228,"endTime":1433.558,"body":"well, where they'll build a feature"},{"startTime":1433.558,"endTime":1437.068,"body":"and it'll never verify, you know what"},{"startTime":1433.558,"endTime":1437.068,"body":"I mean, or, or they will never go"},{"startTime":1437.068,"endTime":1441.598,"body":"through an MVP do some wireframes, some"},{"startTime":1437.068,"endTime":1441.598,"body":"mock ups, say, hey, what do you think"},{"startTime":1441.608,"endTime":1445.308,"body":"about You know, click through this"},{"startTime":1441.608,"endTime":1445.308,"body":"prototype with me and just give me your"},{"startTime":1445.308,"endTime":1448.708,"body":"initial reaction to how it how it, do"},{"startTime":1445.308,"endTime":1448.708,"body":"you think it will solve your problem?"},{"startTime":1448.858,"endTime":1451.438,"body":"We look, some companies think that's"},{"startTime":1448.858,"endTime":1451.438,"body":"a waste of time because you've spent"},{"startTime":1451.448,"endTime":1453.078,"body":"time and effort creating a prototype."},{"startTime":1453.078,"endTime":1454.668,"body":"I'll just finish the"},{"startTime":1453.078,"endTime":1454.668,"body":"thing and send it to them."},{"startTime":1454.668,"endTime":1454.898,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1455.048,"endTime":1456.268,"body":"There are companies that do that."},{"startTime":1456.278,"endTime":1456.878,"body":"They just said, there's no."},{"startTime":1457.028,"endTime":1457.918,"body":"I'm telling you this."},{"startTime":1457.938,"endTime":1458.418,"body":"I'm your boss."},{"startTime":1458.628,"endTime":1459.438,"body":"I'm telling you this."},{"startTime":1459.528,"endTime":1460.948,"body":"Yeah, that, that's a bit bananas."},{"startTime":1460.978,"endTime":1464.628,"body":"Like I, I most people, I think"},{"startTime":1460.978,"endTime":1464.628,"body":"when they hear that my boss told"},{"startTime":1464.628,"endTime":1467.268,"body":"me it's what the customer wants,"},{"startTime":1464.628,"endTime":1467.268,"body":"they're gonna already suspect."},{"startTime":1467.418,"endTime":1471.168,"body":"You're going to already suspect that"},{"startTime":1467.418,"endTime":1471.168,"body":"this is some sort of personal agenda"},{"startTime":1471.188,"endTime":1474.008,"body":"or, you know what I mean, that the"},{"startTime":1471.188,"endTime":1474.008,"body":"solution is going to be suboptimal"},{"startTime":1474.008,"endTime":1477.838,"body":"or I've had plenty of, of bosses who"},{"startTime":1474.008,"endTime":1477.838,"body":"said like, Oh, I know what feature to"},{"startTime":1477.838,"endTime":1480.238,"body":"build, we're going to build this feature"},{"startTime":1477.838,"endTime":1480.238,"body":"and then nobody uses the feature."},{"startTime":1480.588,"endTime":1484.598,"body":"And then the blame begins of like,"},{"startTime":1480.588,"endTime":1484.598,"body":"you built it wrong or we didn't market"},{"startTime":1484.598,"endTime":1488.338,"body":"it enough or it's, it's, it's too"},{"startTime":1484.598,"endTime":1488.338,"body":"hot or it's too cold or whatever."},{"startTime":1488.488,"endTime":1489.158,"body":"Come on, man."},{"startTime":1489.168,"endTime":1493.078,"body":"Like you can't, you literally cannot"},{"startTime":1489.168,"endTime":1493.078,"body":"say that you, you might've been wrong."},{"startTime":1493.098,"endTime":1495.868,"body":"Like that, that can't, that's"},{"startTime":1493.098,"endTime":1495.868,"body":"not in your vernacular at all."},{"startTime":1496.018,"endTime":1497.188,"body":"I might've been wrong about this."},{"startTime":1497.228,"endTime":1498.868,"body":"Well, it's, it's the"},{"startTime":1497.228,"endTime":1498.868,"body":"company culture, right?"},{"startTime":1498.918,"endTime":1500.298,"body":"So it comes back to that again, but."},{"startTime":1500.448,"endTime":1503.958,"body":"I think no matter what, if you're"},{"startTime":1500.448,"endTime":1503.958,"body":"not looking at how well your"},{"startTime":1503.958,"endTime":1506.708,"body":"solution is landing with your"},{"startTime":1503.958,"endTime":1506.708,"body":"customer, you're not gonna know."},{"startTime":1506.948,"endTime":1509.838,"body":"You've delivered something"},{"startTime":1506.948,"endTime":1509.838,"body":"you believe they needed, and"},{"startTime":1509.838,"endTime":1511.258,"body":"maybe you got lucky, right?"},{"startTime":1511.468,"endTime":1515.048,"body":"Let's say they needed that 90"},{"startTime":1511.468,"endTime":1515.048,"body":"percent of the time, you're right!"},{"startTime":1515.388,"endTime":1516.178,"body":"Fantastic!"},{"startTime":1516.188,"endTime":1516.798,"body":"Guess what?"},{"startTime":1516.978,"endTime":1517.678,"body":"Play the lottery."},{"startTime":1517.798,"endTime":1519.518,"body":"But, here's what happens."},{"startTime":1519.618,"endTime":1521.448,"body":"You don't know if they're even using it."},{"startTime":1521.498,"endTime":1524.948,"body":"In the wild in production, unless"},{"startTime":1521.498,"endTime":1524.948,"body":"you're tracking that right."},{"startTime":1524.948,"endTime":1529.518,"body":"So the post delivery telemetry past"},{"startTime":1524.948,"endTime":1529.518,"body":"done is critical here for product."},{"startTime":1529.738,"endTime":1530.508,"body":"Go figure out."},{"startTime":1530.538,"endTime":1531.708,"body":"Is anybody even using it?"},{"startTime":1531.738,"endTime":1533.758,"body":"How often are they using it?"},{"startTime":1533.798,"endTime":1535.318,"body":"How is their experience?"},{"startTime":1535.358,"endTime":1536.568,"body":"Are they struggling through it?"},{"startTime":1536.718,"endTime":1538.158,"body":"Because it basically doesn't work."},{"startTime":1538.398,"endTime":1541.588,"body":"They will The way they want it might"},{"startTime":1538.398,"endTime":1541.588,"body":"work exactly how you implemented"},{"startTime":1541.588,"endTime":1543.288,"body":"it, but it's not how they want it."},{"startTime":1543.438,"endTime":1544.558,"body":"So it's, there's a Delta there."},{"startTime":1544.558,"endTime":1547.328,"body":"So go identify that there's lots"},{"startTime":1544.558,"endTime":1547.328,"body":"to be learned there, but you've"},{"startTime":1547.338,"endTime":1548.878,"body":"got to do the followup, right?"},{"startTime":1549.108,"endTime":1552.368,"body":"And usually people don't do it"},{"startTime":1549.108,"endTime":1552.368,"body":"because they're chasing the next"},{"startTime":1552.378,"endTime":1553.788,"body":"feature, the next thing, right?"},{"startTime":1554.098,"endTime":1555.828,"body":"To your point about"},{"startTime":1554.098,"endTime":1555.828,"body":"feature factories, right?"},{"startTime":1555.858,"endTime":1557.338,"body":"You're just going to get"},{"startTime":1555.858,"endTime":1557.338,"body":"those features out there."},{"startTime":1557.338,"endTime":1557.718,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1557.868,"endTime":1562.548,"body":"And that, pressure is also an indicator"},{"startTime":1557.868,"endTime":1562.548,"body":"of this type of thing going on that, that,"},{"startTime":1562.558,"endTime":1564.028,"body":"cause that pressure is constant and, and."},{"startTime":1564.178,"endTime":1567.148,"body":"Unending is, you know unrelenting."},{"startTime":1567.218,"endTime":1568.078,"body":"It really is."},{"startTime":1568.128,"endTime":1569.718,"body":"Speaking of pressure, too much pressure."},{"startTime":1569.778,"endTime":1574.488,"body":"So let's talk about sales telling"},{"startTime":1569.778,"endTime":1574.488,"body":"you it's what the customer needs."},{"startTime":1574.538,"endTime":1578.338,"body":"Yeah, so there's dollars tied to"},{"startTime":1574.538,"endTime":1578.338,"body":"our department on a spreadsheet."},{"startTime":1578.608,"endTime":1579.468,"body":"There's no dollars tied to you."},{"startTime":1579.468,"endTime":1582.378,"body":"You're not bringing any dollars into the"},{"startTime":1579.468,"endTime":1582.378,"body":"company with your team home because we,"},{"startTime":1582.528,"endTime":1584.478,"body":"Use this really messed up financial model."},{"startTime":1584.628,"endTime":1587.628,"body":"So what I So it's what the cu I"},{"startTime":1584.628,"endTime":1587.628,"body":"mean, it's what the customer needs."},{"startTime":1587.938,"endTime":1588.798,"body":"It's what the customer needs."},{"startTime":1588.938,"endTime":1589.588,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1589.608,"endTime":1590.378,"body":"It's what they need."},{"startTime":1590.378,"endTime":1593.878,"body":"Just give them Sales people like that are"},{"startTime":1590.378,"endTime":1593.878,"body":"almost like Just give them a black box"},{"startTime":1593.878,"endTime":1595.468,"body":"and go Everything they need is in here."},{"startTime":1595.618,"endTime":1596.218,"body":"There's nothing."},{"startTime":1596.258,"endTime":1597.338,"body":"Use a shoebox, whatever."},{"startTime":1597.638,"endTime":1598.288,"body":"No, you're right."},{"startTime":1598.288,"endTime":1601.798,"body":"So sales people often have what"},{"startTime":1598.288,"endTime":1601.798,"body":"I call this snap decision, right?"},{"startTime":1601.898,"endTime":1605.328,"body":"They hear buzzwords or keywords"},{"startTime":1601.898,"endTime":1605.328,"body":"and they go Hi, we can do that?"},{"startTime":1605.548,"endTime":1607.488,"body":"Well, we have that in our repertoire."},{"startTime":1607.598,"endTime":1607.868,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1608.218,"endTime":1608.848,"body":"We've got this."},{"startTime":1608.878,"endTime":1610.818,"body":"Let's just dress it up and ship it, right?"},{"startTime":1610.968,"endTime":1614.548,"body":"So they're more likely to be"},{"startTime":1610.968,"endTime":1614.548,"body":"pressing you further, right, just"},{"startTime":1614.558,"endTime":1617.403,"body":"to get that done because they"},{"startTime":1614.558,"endTime":1617.403,"body":"They're telling you authoritatively,"},{"startTime":1617.403,"endTime":1618.823,"body":"this is what the customer needs."},{"startTime":1618.973,"endTime":1622.353,"body":"It's all the more important to"},{"startTime":1618.973,"endTime":1622.353,"body":"validate that, because they may not"},{"startTime":1622.353,"endTime":1623.723,"body":"understand the domain they're in."},{"startTime":1623.873,"endTime":1627.383,"body":"No disrespect to salespeople, some are"},{"startTime":1623.873,"endTime":1627.383,"body":"great, they do understand the domain,"},{"startTime":1627.383,"endTime":1629.333,"body":"but then there are others that don't."},{"startTime":1629.663,"endTime":1631.933,"body":"Because to your point, they're"},{"startTime":1629.663,"endTime":1631.933,"body":"just looking at their commissions."},{"startTime":1631.943,"endTime":1633.823,"body":"I think about it as the opposite."},{"startTime":1634.023,"endTime":1636.843,"body":"I'm at a point in my career where"},{"startTime":1634.023,"endTime":1636.843,"body":"I'm assuming that the sales people"},{"startTime":1636.943,"endTime":1640.093,"body":"do know the domain, and I'm assuming"},{"startTime":1636.943,"endTime":1640.093,"body":"they know it better than the"},{"startTime":1640.093,"endTime":1642.243,"body":"product managers and the dev team."},{"startTime":1642.393,"endTime":1648.153,"body":"But what they don't do is they don't"},{"startTime":1642.393,"endTime":1648.153,"body":"vet and test ideas, because they"},{"startTime":1648.163,"endTime":1651.473,"body":"don't have to pay for development"},{"startTime":1648.163,"endTime":1651.473,"body":"teams out of their budget."},{"startTime":1651.623,"endTime":1651.983,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1652.203,"endTime":1657.053,"body":"So I, I just came off of reading playing"},{"startTime":1652.203,"endTime":1657.053,"body":"to win like where to play and how to win."},{"startTime":1657.083,"endTime":1660.013,"body":"Those are the, that's basically"},{"startTime":1657.083,"endTime":1660.013,"body":"the strategy in playing to win."},{"startTime":1660.163,"endTime":1663.273,"body":"So you have to determine where to"},{"startTime":1660.163,"endTime":1663.273,"body":"play, what market, what audience,"},{"startTime":1663.273,"endTime":1665.443,"body":"that kind of stuff and how to"},{"startTime":1663.273,"endTime":1665.443,"body":"win basically what your goal is."},{"startTime":1665.593,"endTime":1667.963,"body":"Salespeople saying, I know"},{"startTime":1665.593,"endTime":1667.963,"body":"what the customer needs."},{"startTime":1667.973,"endTime":1671.003,"body":"The benefit here is they've"},{"startTime":1667.973,"endTime":1671.003,"body":"talked to customers."},{"startTime":1671.003,"endTime":1672.663,"body":"They don't do anything"},{"startTime":1671.003,"endTime":1672.663,"body":"without talking to people."},{"startTime":1672.713,"endTime":1676.063,"body":"Unlike some product managers and"},{"startTime":1672.713,"endTime":1676.063,"body":"development teams, you can't sell"},{"startTime":1676.063,"endTime":1677.083,"body":"anything without talking to people."},{"startTime":1677.093,"endTime":1680.413,"body":"So they're in constant conversation"},{"startTime":1677.093,"endTime":1680.413,"body":"With people that potentially are"},{"startTime":1680.413,"endTime":1683.243,"body":"using a product or using the product"},{"startTime":1680.413,"endTime":1683.243,"body":"so they know the pain points."},{"startTime":1683.513,"endTime":1686.833,"body":"They know the buying behaviors They're"},{"startTime":1683.513,"endTime":1686.833,"body":"well in tune with this whether or not"},{"startTime":1686.833,"endTime":1690.723,"body":"they actually share these skills with the"},{"startTime":1686.833,"endTime":1690.723,"body":"teams Whole different podcast right there"},{"startTime":1690.873,"endTime":1696.403,"body":"but they can align the features that are"},{"startTime":1690.873,"endTime":1696.403,"body":"about to go onto the roadmap or in the"},{"startTime":1696.403,"endTime":1702.343,"body":"roadmap with Market needs the customer's"},{"startTime":1696.403,"endTime":1702.343,"body":"market needs and the market in general."},{"startTime":1702.493,"endTime":1705.183,"body":"So if we're developing a bunch of"},{"startTime":1702.493,"endTime":1705.183,"body":"features that like the market is the"},{"startTime":1705.183,"endTime":1708.653,"body":"sales people already know that the markets"},{"startTime":1705.183,"endTime":1708.653,"body":"like, Oh, nobody really is doing that."},{"startTime":1708.653,"endTime":1710.243,"body":"Nobody's talking about that."},{"startTime":1710.563,"endTime":1713.673,"body":"I mean, maybe you're building software"},{"startTime":1710.563,"endTime":1713.673,"body":"for early adopters, but the majority of"},{"startTime":1713.683,"endTime":1718.103,"body":"companies out there are not doing that,"},{"startTime":1713.683,"endTime":1718.103,"body":"nor do they really want to, to be honest."},{"startTime":1718.183,"endTime":1719.183,"body":"It's a risky spot to be in."},{"startTime":1719.183,"endTime":1722.943,"body":"Because then this, yeah, you need special"},{"startTime":1719.183,"endTime":1722.943,"body":"salespeople to go out there and find, find"},{"startTime":1723.003,"endTime":1727.903,"body":"an audience, finding a new audience for"},{"startTime":1723.003,"endTime":1727.903,"body":"your product that never existed before."},{"startTime":1728.053,"endTime":1730.413,"body":"And like that's, that's a very difficult."},{"startTime":1730.543,"endTime":1734.683,"body":"So like, there's a bunch of like, they can"},{"startTime":1730.543,"endTime":1734.683,"body":"really like tie it into your sales team."},{"startTime":1734.893,"endTime":1738.003,"body":"Well there's some huge benefits"},{"startTime":1734.893,"endTime":1738.003,"body":"here that we don't talk about"},{"startTime":1738.073,"endTime":1739.693,"body":"enough in software development."},{"startTime":1739.843,"endTime":1743.183,"body":"Yeah, I think you bring up a point"},{"startTime":1739.843,"endTime":1743.183,"body":"where if your sales people are"},{"startTime":1743.193,"endTime":1747.593,"body":"really in tune with the market, the"},{"startTime":1743.193,"endTime":1747.593,"body":"solution space that you're in, right?"},{"startTime":1747.743,"endTime":1751.193,"body":"And they're coming to you with"},{"startTime":1747.743,"endTime":1751.193,"body":"customer needs that they say,"},{"startTime":1751.193,"endTime":1752.363,"body":"well, this is what customer needs."},{"startTime":1752.363,"endTime":1753.223,"body":"I'm telling you this."},{"startTime":1753.373,"endTime":1754.323,"body":"Well, guess what?"},{"startTime":1754.523,"endTime":1755.503,"body":"They have a track record."},{"startTime":1755.553,"endTime":1756.793,"body":"They've been there a while."},{"startTime":1757.033,"endTime":1757.813,"body":"They might be right."},{"startTime":1757.863,"endTime":1758.083,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1758.403,"endTime":1761.703,"body":"But, right, it behooves you"},{"startTime":1758.403,"endTime":1761.703,"body":"to at least just go through"},{"startTime":1761.703,"endTime":1763.353,"body":"another round with the customer."},{"startTime":1763.503,"endTime":1767.413,"body":"Because, again, a single level"},{"startTime":1763.503,"endTime":1767.413,"body":"conversation is one thing."},{"startTime":1767.563,"endTime":1770.423,"body":"A two dimensional thought"},{"startTime":1767.563,"endTime":1770.423,"body":"process is another thing, right?"},{"startTime":1770.443,"endTime":1773.753,"body":"Bring in people, bring in two or three"},{"startTime":1770.443,"endTime":1773.753,"body":"people and just say, let's validate this."},{"startTime":1773.903,"endTime":1778.153,"body":"And, and you'll maybe surprised"},{"startTime":1773.903,"endTime":1778.153,"body":"at how it deviates from the"},{"startTime":1778.153,"endTime":1779.323,"body":"original thought process."},{"startTime":1779.603,"endTime":1782.933,"body":"It might not be completely out of left"},{"startTime":1779.603,"endTime":1782.933,"body":"field, but it's going to deviate a little."},{"startTime":1782.983,"endTime":1783.743,"body":"And you're going to save."},{"startTime":1783.893,"endTime":1789.543,"body":"A lot of hassle by just honing in right"},{"startTime":1783.893,"endTime":1789.543,"body":"to that exact customer need just by"},{"startTime":1789.553,"endTime":1791.453,"body":"having your people talk to them, right?"},{"startTime":1791.603,"endTime":1793.673,"body":"Not that the sales people are not correct."},{"startTime":1793.683,"endTime":1794.473,"body":"I mean, they are."},{"startTime":1794.493,"endTime":1797.043,"body":"It's just that one level of"},{"startTime":1794.493,"endTime":1797.043,"body":"conversation they've had."},{"startTime":1797.193,"endTime":1799.633,"body":"I think if you're a product manager,"},{"startTime":1797.193,"endTime":1799.633,"body":"you're somebody listening to this,"},{"startTime":1799.633,"endTime":1800.953,"body":"a scrum master, really whatever."},{"startTime":1801.103,"endTime":1805.943,"body":"I think you will be surprised how"},{"startTime":1801.103,"endTime":1805.943,"body":"receptive the sales group would be to"},{"startTime":1805.943,"endTime":1809.353,"body":"say like, Hey, next time you're on an"},{"startTime":1805.943,"endTime":1809.353,"body":"account management call or a visit or"},{"startTime":1809.353,"endTime":1812.023,"body":"whatever, just you know, throw it, throw"},{"startTime":1809.353,"endTime":1812.023,"body":"an invite out, let me know when it is."},{"startTime":1812.023,"endTime":1815.223,"body":"And we'll see if we have anyone and"},{"startTime":1812.023,"endTime":1815.223,"body":"just kind of tag along just tag along,"},{"startTime":1815.243,"endTime":1818.258,"body":"say, hi, we maintain your solution"},{"startTime":1815.243,"endTime":1818.258,"body":"just see if there's anything and."},{"startTime":1818.408,"endTime":1821.488,"body":"I just think this is a problem"},{"startTime":1818.408,"endTime":1821.488,"body":"just because they see sales as"},{"startTime":1821.488,"endTime":1822.948,"body":"another department, another team."},{"startTime":1823.218,"endTime":1825.878,"body":"And this is one of the ones in the"},{"startTime":1823.218,"endTime":1825.878,"body":"agile space that like a lot of people"},{"startTime":1825.878,"endTime":1828.868,"body":"aren't talking about like bring"},{"startTime":1825.878,"endTime":1828.868,"body":"this like HR and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1828.888,"endTime":1831.488,"body":"Like how to bring this"},{"startTime":1828.888,"endTime":1831.488,"body":"skill back into your team."},{"startTime":1831.488,"endTime":1833.638,"body":"Will you bring the skill back"},{"startTime":1831.488,"endTime":1833.638,"body":"into your team by starting?"},{"startTime":1833.788,"endTime":1836.248,"body":"To make those people"},{"startTime":1833.788,"endTime":1836.248,"body":"a member of your team."},{"startTime":1836.258,"endTime":1837.588,"body":"Engage with them, yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1837.738,"endTime":1841.778,"body":"You're right, I think often times the"},{"startTime":1837.738,"endTime":1841.778,"body":"people on the teams, they do think of"},{"startTime":1841.778,"endTime":1843.878,"body":"sales as this separate thing, right?"},{"startTime":1844.028,"endTime":1847.578,"body":"And they look at that as, well, when"},{"startTime":1844.028,"endTime":1847.578,"body":"they feed us something, we work on it."},{"startTime":1847.588,"endTime":1849.668,"body":"It's like, no, there is no them and us."},{"startTime":1849.818,"endTime":1851.768,"body":"I know what the customer"},{"startTime":1849.818,"endTime":1851.768,"body":"needs coming from sales."},{"startTime":1851.878,"endTime":1855.648,"body":"Like the negatives here, I think everybody"},{"startTime":1851.878,"endTime":1855.648,"body":"listening knows the negatives here."},{"startTime":1855.648,"endTime":1858.858,"body":"I mean, the negatives here are"},{"startTime":1855.648,"endTime":1858.858,"body":"sales has their own incentives."},{"startTime":1858.878,"endTime":1862.318,"body":"And so like I was at an organization"},{"startTime":1858.878,"endTime":1862.318,"body":"one time where the sales people"},{"startTime":1862.468,"endTime":1867.118,"body":"Got commissioned based on recurring"},{"startTime":1862.468,"endTime":1867.118,"body":"revenue is a sass product."},{"startTime":1867.438,"endTime":1870.028,"body":"So I don't think they had"},{"startTime":1867.438,"endTime":1870.028,"body":"a cut of like every single"},{"startTime":1870.028,"endTime":1871.818,"body":"transaction on the sass product."},{"startTime":1871.818,"endTime":1876.008,"body":"But at least quarterly, I know if"},{"startTime":1871.818,"endTime":1876.008,"body":"their customers were happy and were"},{"startTime":1876.158,"endTime":1880.008,"body":"increasing in the number of transactions,"},{"startTime":1876.158,"endTime":1880.008,"body":"they got more bonus or whatever."},{"startTime":1880.148,"endTime":1882.198,"body":"They went to the salesperson that sold."},{"startTime":1882.458,"endTime":1884.668,"body":"The thing, and I'm like, wait"},{"startTime":1882.458,"endTime":1884.668,"body":"a minute, I was like, this,"},{"startTime":1884.918,"endTime":1886.668,"body":"that makes no sense at all."},{"startTime":1886.668,"endTime":1888.968,"body":"It was, it was like an"},{"startTime":1886.668,"endTime":1888.968,"body":"account management function."},{"startTime":1888.978,"endTime":1890.508,"body":"That's what it was really"},{"startTime":1888.978,"endTime":1890.508,"body":"meant to encourage."},{"startTime":1890.788,"endTime":1892.688,"body":"You know, the better account"},{"startTime":1890.788,"endTime":1892.688,"body":"management, the better you treat"},{"startTime":1892.688,"endTime":1895.228,"body":"them, the more money you get when they"},{"startTime":1892.688,"endTime":1895.228,"body":"spend more money with the company."},{"startTime":1895.488,"endTime":1897.238,"body":"But it was just sales"},{"startTime":1895.488,"endTime":1897.238,"body":"people that got that money."},{"startTime":1897.248,"endTime":1900.208,"body":"Like the development teams"},{"startTime":1897.248,"endTime":1900.208,"body":"maintaining the solution got nothing."},{"startTime":1900.438,"endTime":1902.068,"body":"Customer service people got nothing."},{"startTime":1902.318,"endTime":1903.728,"body":"It was the weirdest thing ever."},{"startTime":1903.728,"endTime":1904.518,"body":"And it was really bad."},{"startTime":1904.518,"endTime":1905.318,"body":"I mean, it wasn't good."},{"startTime":1905.338,"endTime":1906.688,"body":"Like, don't do that with your company."},{"startTime":1906.958,"endTime":1909.278,"body":"And also the, the so, so"},{"startTime":1906.958,"endTime":1909.278,"body":"the salespeople might."},{"startTime":1909.578,"endTime":1914.678,"body":"In that instance, they might really"},{"startTime":1909.578,"endTime":1914.678,"body":"lobby for their customer to be given"},{"startTime":1914.688,"endTime":1918.818,"body":"special dispensation or more effort"},{"startTime":1914.688,"endTime":1918.818,"body":"or nights and weekends type of stuff"},{"startTime":1918.978,"endTime":1920.678,"body":"when it's all about them getting paid."},{"startTime":1920.718,"endTime":1921.188,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1921.238,"endTime":1921.958,"body":"It's favoritism."},{"startTime":1921.958,"endTime":1922.178,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1922.428,"endTime":1924.218,"body":"Now I've seen the other side of it where."},{"startTime":1924.563,"endTime":1928.073,"body":"And this is not, not SaaS, this"},{"startTime":1924.563,"endTime":1928.073,"body":"was typical kind of you know, multi"},{"startTime":1928.073,"endTime":1932.913,"body":"tier client server type of situation"},{"startTime":1928.073,"endTime":1932.913,"body":"where a sale was made and they, the"},{"startTime":1932.913,"endTime":1935.463,"body":"salesperson got most of their bonus."},{"startTime":1935.613,"endTime":1938.043,"body":"On signing the contract with the customer."},{"startTime":1938.193,"endTime":1939.383,"body":"So there's no software yet."},{"startTime":1939.533,"endTime":1940.673,"body":"There's nothing, right?"},{"startTime":1940.713,"endTime":1943.233,"body":"There's not even those"},{"startTime":1940.713,"endTime":1943.233,"body":"deep dive discussions yet."},{"startTime":1943.333,"endTime":1946.683,"body":"It's just the customer signed"},{"startTime":1943.333,"endTime":1946.683,"body":"the contract and the salesperson"},{"startTime":1946.693,"endTime":1947.973,"body":"has most of their money."},{"startTime":1948.123,"endTime":1952.333,"body":"I say most because some of it was tied"},{"startTime":1948.123,"endTime":1952.333,"body":"to the actual delivery of the software."},{"startTime":1952.483,"endTime":1953.563,"body":"And acceptance, right?"},{"startTime":1953.563,"endTime":1954.923,"body":"90 days after or whatever."},{"startTime":1955.073,"endTime":1959.753,"body":"So, in this one company that I was"},{"startTime":1955.073,"endTime":1959.753,"body":"with some time ago, they never got"},{"startTime":1959.753,"endTime":1963.623,"body":"that last bonus because the customer"},{"startTime":1959.753,"endTime":1963.623,"body":"was never happy enough to accept."},{"startTime":1963.773,"endTime":1969.623,"body":"So, all we kept doing is just keeping"},{"startTime":1963.773,"endTime":1969.623,"body":"the thing alive on CPR, way past 90 days."},{"startTime":1969.653,"endTime":1969.873,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":1970.103,"endTime":1974.423,"body":"And knowing that, they structured"},{"startTime":1970.103,"endTime":1974.423,"body":"the contract in a way where it was"},{"startTime":1974.753,"endTime":1977.253,"body":"elusively called that last that last 10%."},{"startTime":1977.293,"endTime":1978.463,"body":"They knew they weren't going to get it."},{"startTime":1978.463,"endTime":1978.783,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1979.113,"endTime":1979.463,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1979.573,"endTime":1982.703,"body":"But they're fine with that because"},{"startTime":1979.573,"endTime":1982.703,"body":"the 90 percent more than pays"},{"startTime":1982.703,"endTime":1983.593,"body":"for their yachts or whatever."},{"startTime":1983.743,"endTime":1985.803,"body":"Yeah, so there's a lot of stuff going on."},{"startTime":1985.833,"endTime":1989.113,"body":"I think you need to understand your"},{"startTime":1985.833,"endTime":1989.113,"body":"own corporate environment, right?"},{"startTime":1989.113,"endTime":1993.683,"body":"And how things are structured, but get rid"},{"startTime":1989.113,"endTime":1993.683,"body":"of this idea that sales are over there and"},{"startTime":1993.683,"endTime":1995.193,"body":"they feed you stuff and you work on it."},{"startTime":1995.343,"endTime":1995.623,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1995.623,"endTime":1999.523,"body":"And then when you get into the situation"},{"startTime":1995.623,"endTime":1999.523,"body":"of experiencing pain, it's because"},{"startTime":1999.543,"endTime":2001.603,"body":"you didn't engage with them, right?"},{"startTime":2001.643,"endTime":2002.333,"body":"Encourage them."},{"startTime":2002.383,"endTime":2004.343,"body":"I think most salespeople welcome that."},{"startTime":2004.493,"endTime":2007.393,"body":"Some don't, but you know, they're"},{"startTime":2004.493,"endTime":2007.393,"body":"kind of being whittled out,"},{"startTime":2007.403,"endTime":2008.753,"body":"the prima donna salespeople."},{"startTime":2008.903,"endTime":2010.603,"body":"Well, this is a great pivot point."},{"startTime":2010.753,"endTime":2015.713,"body":"To pivot into one that I'm very happy to"},{"startTime":2010.753,"endTime":2015.713,"body":"talk about, which is the company founder"},{"startTime":2015.803,"endTime":2018.013,"body":"saying, I know what the customer needs."},{"startTime":2018.043,"endTime":2019.833,"body":"I know what customers need a lot of time."},{"startTime":2019.833,"endTime":2023.203,"body":"Cause a lot of time, the company"},{"startTime":2019.833,"endTime":2023.203,"body":"founder is the domain expert."},{"startTime":2023.353,"endTime":2028.343,"body":"In the room, no matter what room they're"},{"startTime":2023.353,"endTime":2028.343,"body":"in even sometimes more so than the"},{"startTime":2028.383,"endTime":2030.213,"body":"customers they're the domain expert."},{"startTime":2030.503,"endTime":2032.893,"body":"They can provide a high level vision."},{"startTime":2032.903,"endTime":2036.893,"body":"Usually the mission and vision of"},{"startTime":2032.903,"endTime":2036.893,"body":"the company is set directly by them."},{"startTime":2037.173,"endTime":2040.213,"body":"So they can really add nuance when"},{"startTime":2037.173,"endTime":2040.213,"body":"they need to, they know the market,"},{"startTime":2040.223,"endTime":2043.573,"body":"they know the target audience the,"},{"startTime":2040.223,"endTime":2043.573,"body":"the user segmentation and whatever"},{"startTime":2043.573,"endTime":2047.333,"body":"that your product is, is going to,"},{"startTime":2043.573,"endTime":2047.333,"body":"they can very quickly, very easily"},{"startTime":2047.333,"endTime":2049.643,"body":"make calls of prioritization founders."},{"startTime":2049.793,"endTime":2051.383,"body":"They know what's important"},{"startTime":2049.793,"endTime":2051.383,"body":"over other things."},{"startTime":2051.383,"endTime":2055.893,"body":"They really need very little input from"},{"startTime":2051.383,"endTime":2055.893,"body":"that you know, from there, it's all pros."},{"startTime":2056.043,"endTime":2057.133,"body":"Yeah, it is."},{"startTime":2057.323,"endTime":2061.003,"body":"And I think that those are solid pros,"},{"startTime":2057.323,"endTime":2061.003,"body":"but there is a con that I can think of"},{"startTime":2061.003,"endTime":2062.743,"body":"right off the bat, and that is this."},{"startTime":2062.893,"endTime":2065.833,"body":"They're too vested in the"},{"startTime":2062.893,"endTime":2065.833,"body":"company that they founded."},{"startTime":2066.053,"endTime":2067.953,"body":"So whatever they hear."},{"startTime":2068.103,"endTime":2071.773,"body":"From the customer, they're always"},{"startTime":2068.103,"endTime":2071.773,"body":"thinking we're gonna be able to do this."},{"startTime":2071.863,"endTime":2072.643,"body":"We can do this."},{"startTime":2072.773,"endTime":2074.143,"body":"Oh, we already do this, right?"},{"startTime":2074.173,"endTime":2075.363,"body":"It goes along those lines."},{"startTime":2075.513,"endTime":2079.283,"body":"And typically when they when that"},{"startTime":2075.513,"endTime":2079.283,"body":"calculus is going on in their mind,"},{"startTime":2079.283,"endTime":2081.133,"body":"it's also they know the domain."},{"startTime":2081.283,"endTime":2081.613,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2081.623,"endTime":2082.043,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":2082.083,"endTime":2082.343,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2082.343,"endTime":2085.123,"body":"They also know who the other"},{"startTime":2082.343,"endTime":2085.123,"body":"players are, their competitors,"},{"startTime":2085.413,"endTime":2086.403,"body":"and they don't want to lose out."},{"startTime":2086.743,"endTime":2088.853,"body":"So come what may, they want that contract."},{"startTime":2089.003,"endTime":2092.803,"body":"And therein, they may take"},{"startTime":2089.003,"endTime":2092.803,"body":"on a little bit too much."},{"startTime":2092.833,"endTime":2093.083,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2093.233,"endTime":2096.433,"body":"The other thing is that the company"},{"startTime":2093.233,"endTime":2096.433,"body":"founders, how can I say this gently"},{"startTime":2096.483,"endTime":2100.803,"body":"they have unrealistic expectations"},{"startTime":2096.483,"endTime":2100.803,"body":"because they're working way more."},{"startTime":2100.953,"endTime":2104.993,"body":"Then anybody else in the company, they're,"},{"startTime":2100.953,"endTime":2104.993,"body":"they're, they're not pulling a 40 and"},{"startTime":2104.993,"endTime":2106.583,"body":"turn the phone off on the weekends there."},{"startTime":2106.583,"endTime":2108.143,"body":"They're 24 seven type of people."},{"startTime":2108.143,"endTime":2110.703,"body":"The majority of them again, it's"},{"startTime":2108.143,"endTime":2110.703,"body":"small companies and maybe larger"},{"startTime":2110.703,"endTime":2112.143,"body":"companies, like directorial people."},{"startTime":2112.143,"endTime":2114.323,"body":"Maybe they're different, but"},{"startTime":2112.143,"endTime":2114.323,"body":"yeah, you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":2114.323,"endTime":2116.423,"body":"They, they see a gap that"},{"startTime":2114.323,"endTime":2116.423,"body":"somebody else is filling."},{"startTime":2116.573,"endTime":2120.183,"body":"You know somebody they're going to"},{"startTime":2116.573,"endTime":2120.183,"body":"defend their territory sure to the"},{"startTime":2120.183,"endTime":2123.193,"body":"death they'll extend to if they're"},{"startTime":2120.183,"endTime":2123.193,"body":"not filling it now They're not"},{"startTime":2123.193,"endTime":2124.353,"body":"gonna say that to the customer."},{"startTime":2124.353,"endTime":2125.953,"body":"Yeah, right and so we can do that."},{"startTime":2126.153,"endTime":2129.773,"body":"Yeah, right sure we can do that I mean,"},{"startTime":2126.153,"endTime":2129.773,"body":"you know the tough part about not letting"},{"startTime":2129.773,"endTime":2134.873,"body":"anything go is You're gonna bend and"},{"startTime":2129.773,"endTime":2134.873,"body":"twist Things to get to not be wrong."},{"startTime":2135.003,"endTime":2138.633,"body":"Yeah, that's a, that's a fatal flaw of"},{"startTime":2135.003,"endTime":2138.633,"body":"this type of person that we're describing"},{"startTime":2138.633,"endTime":2140.713,"body":"right now, which I've certainly seen."},{"startTime":2140.763,"endTime":2141.253,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":2141.423,"endTime":2142.383,"body":"Absolutely same."},{"startTime":2142.393,"endTime":2144.993,"body":"Yeah, and I've seen it two ways, right?"},{"startTime":2144.993,"endTime":2149.343,"body":"One is I've seen it go south pretty"},{"startTime":2144.993,"endTime":2149.343,"body":"quickly because you really don't have"},{"startTime":2149.493,"endTime":2151.963,"body":"the chops to deliver that Delta, right?"},{"startTime":2152.033,"endTime":2156.513,"body":"That's never an expertise you you had"},{"startTime":2152.033,"endTime":2156.513,"body":"before so you're trying to either buy"},{"startTime":2156.513,"endTime":2159.213,"body":"it or build it and it's a challenge."},{"startTime":2159.263,"endTime":2165.033,"body":"I've seen the other side of it, which is"},{"startTime":2159.263,"endTime":2165.033,"body":"you blocked out a competitor or two by"},{"startTime":2165.053,"endTime":2167.923,"body":"simply going on your credibility, right?"},{"startTime":2167.953,"endTime":2169.553,"body":"I've been in this space for 30 years."},{"startTime":2169.553,"endTime":2170.543,"body":"I founded this company."},{"startTime":2170.773,"endTime":2172.993,"body":"I'm telling you, you can do this and"},{"startTime":2170.773,"endTime":2172.993,"body":"the customer is going to believe you."},{"startTime":2173.143,"endTime":2175.003,"body":"And then they go and do it, right?"},{"startTime":2175.153,"endTime":2177.703,"body":"They go and do it and they"},{"startTime":2175.153,"endTime":2177.703,"body":"say, I told you we could do it."},{"startTime":2177.723,"endTime":2178.283,"body":"We've done it."},{"startTime":2178.553,"endTime":2180.513,"body":"I've seen that too, which is fantastic."},{"startTime":2180.663,"endTime":2182.213,"body":"But it comes at a cost, right?"},{"startTime":2182.263,"endTime":2185.213,"body":"And the cost is usually the toll"},{"startTime":2182.263,"endTime":2185.213,"body":"it takes to your point, right?"},{"startTime":2185.213,"endTime":2186.933,"body":"On the people in the company."},{"startTime":2187.133,"endTime":2188.603,"body":"But also an opportunity cost."},{"startTime":2188.633,"endTime":2189.363,"body":"What are you not doing?"},{"startTime":2189.363,"endTime":2190.843,"body":"You're not innovating something else."},{"startTime":2190.993,"endTime":2192.233,"body":"Because you're feeding this market."},{"startTime":2192.243,"endTime":2196.343,"body":"In my case it was an industry that"},{"startTime":2192.243,"endTime":2196.343,"body":"basically had plateaued at the time."},{"startTime":2196.493,"endTime":2198.703,"body":"And then since dove down a bit."},{"startTime":2198.853,"endTime":2201.113,"body":"And it's now kind of"},{"startTime":2198.853,"endTime":2201.113,"body":"just doing this, right?"},{"startTime":2201.173,"endTime":2202.103,"body":"Ebb and tide, ebb and tide."},{"startTime":2202.363,"endTime":2204.383,"body":"So I've seen that both ways."},{"startTime":2204.533,"endTime":2208.713,"body":"The thing to bear in mind is If that"},{"startTime":2204.533,"endTime":2208.713,"body":"person who has invested so much of"},{"startTime":2208.713,"endTime":2213.033,"body":"their life in the company and in the"},{"startTime":2208.713,"endTime":2213.033,"body":"domain, they are rich with knowledge."},{"startTime":2213.073,"endTime":2213.443,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2213.593,"endTime":2217.603,"body":"So the teams can absolutely depend"},{"startTime":2213.593,"endTime":2217.603,"body":"on them to steer them forward"},{"startTime":2217.693,"endTime":2219.503,"body":"it's like the wind in your sail."},{"startTime":2219.503,"endTime":2221.283,"body":"I mean, they're there with you, right?"},{"startTime":2221.633,"endTime":2222.703,"body":"They're leading with that."},{"startTime":2222.703,"endTime":2225.193,"body":"So you don't have to ask"},{"startTime":2222.703,"endTime":2225.193,"body":"permission for directions."},{"startTime":2225.203,"endTime":2227.323,"body":"You simply say, do we do this or this?"},{"startTime":2227.463,"endTime":2228.063,"body":"Now we do this."},{"startTime":2228.213,"endTime":2228.913,"body":"Listen to that."},{"startTime":2228.993,"endTime":2229.863,"body":"That's, that's true."},{"startTime":2230.013,"endTime":2232.503,"body":"But also just say, well,"},{"startTime":2230.013,"endTime":2232.503,"body":"what are we missing here?"},{"startTime":2232.653,"endTime":2232.973,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2233.123,"endTime":2236.593,"body":"If, are we developing this (Australian"},{"startTime":2233.123,"endTime":2236.593,"body":"sounds) solution, to use my"},{"startTime":2236.593,"endTime":2238.853,"body":"Australianism here, for one customer?"},{"startTime":2239.003,"endTime":2239.503,"body":"Are we?"},{"startTime":2239.593,"endTime":2241.623,"body":"If that's happening,"},{"startTime":2239.593,"endTime":2241.623,"body":"what are we missing out?"},{"startTime":2241.723,"endTime":2241.963,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2242.113,"endTime":2243.943,"body":"Those are the conversations to have."},{"startTime":2243.973,"endTime":2246.383,"body":"They may be saying, I know"},{"startTime":2243.973,"endTime":2246.383,"body":"what the customer's need."},{"startTime":2246.533,"endTime":2250.053,"body":"Based on their own experience or they're"},{"startTime":2246.533,"endTime":2250.053,"body":"making a bet or they're trying to get"},{"startTime":2250.053,"endTime":2255.033,"body":"ahead of the market When the customer"},{"startTime":2250.053,"endTime":2255.033,"body":"research or the, the, the MVP testing"},{"startTime":2255.033,"endTime":2259.213,"body":"of ideas kind of comes up short and"},{"startTime":2255.033,"endTime":2259.213,"body":"says Oh, we, we, we tested this new,"},{"startTime":2259.443,"endTime":2262.313,"body":"this new screen or this new workflow"},{"startTime":2259.443,"endTime":2262.313,"body":"through the screens or whatever."},{"startTime":2262.523,"endTime":2265.603,"body":"And the majority of customers seem"},{"startTime":2262.523,"endTime":2265.603,"body":"lost or they didn't want to use it,"},{"startTime":2265.603,"endTime":2266.983,"body":"or they just prefer the old version."},{"startTime":2267.193,"endTime":2267.903,"body":"Ah, don't worry."},{"startTime":2267.903,"endTime":2271.793,"body":"They'll come around that like,"},{"startTime":2267.903,"endTime":2271.793,"body":"that's a, that's a company founder."},{"startTime":2271.793,"endTime":2274.523,"body":"That's the only thing a company"},{"startTime":2271.793,"endTime":2274.523,"body":"founder can do and get away with is"},{"startTime":2274.523,"endTime":2275.993,"body":"like I know there's not evidence."},{"startTime":2276.143,"endTime":2280.313,"body":"But we're gonna steer in this direction"},{"startTime":2276.143,"endTime":2280.313,"body":"and I'm gonna trust my intuition to get"},{"startTime":2280.313,"endTime":2283.123,"body":"us there because it got us here so far."},{"startTime":2283.273,"endTime":2286.083,"body":"You know, along the way that I'm"},{"startTime":2283.273,"endTime":2286.083,"body":"going to trust it one more time."},{"startTime":2286.233,"endTime":2287.273,"body":"Like, that's a gamble."},{"startTime":2287.283,"endTime":2288.473,"body":"Like, how many one more times?"},{"startTime":2288.493,"endTime":2290.413,"body":"You know, how many, one"},{"startTime":2288.493,"endTime":2290.413,"body":"more, one more roll."},{"startTime":2290.473,"endTime":2291.433,"body":"Casinos always win."},{"startTime":2291.593,"endTime":2292.703,"body":"No, I agree with you."},{"startTime":2292.703,"endTime":2296.063,"body":"The intuition, the gut"},{"startTime":2292.703,"endTime":2296.063,"body":"feel has merit, I think."},{"startTime":2296.333,"endTime":2298.403,"body":"But you shouldn't bank"},{"startTime":2296.333,"endTime":2298.403,"body":"all your chips on it."},{"startTime":2298.553,"endTime":2302.603,"body":"You know, just look at it as an impartial"},{"startTime":2298.553,"endTime":2302.603,"body":"person and say, What are they missing?"},{"startTime":2302.753,"endTime":2306.183,"body":"And then feel free to Point that out"},{"startTime":2302.753,"endTime":2306.183,"body":"to them and say, well, what about this?"},{"startTime":2306.283,"endTime":2306.523,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2306.743,"endTime":2307.893,"body":"They may not have thought about it."},{"startTime":2307.953,"endTime":2309.673,"body":"In that case, they'll"},{"startTime":2307.953,"endTime":2309.673,"body":"be grateful, hopefully."},{"startTime":2309.953,"endTime":2312.293,"body":"Or they might just smack"},{"startTime":2309.953,"endTime":2312.293,"body":"you and say, do as I say."},{"startTime":2312.323,"endTime":2312.633,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2312.733,"endTime":2317.863,"body":"But again, the response should be the"},{"startTime":2312.733,"endTime":2317.863,"body":"same, which is show me the evidence."},{"startTime":2317.883,"endTime":2318.603,"body":"What makes you believe?"},{"startTime":2318.753,"endTime":2321.223,"body":"That this over this is the way to go."},{"startTime":2321.373,"endTime":2325.273,"body":"And if you can't have that conversation,"},{"startTime":2321.373,"endTime":2325.273,"body":"you basically can't make any headway"},{"startTime":2325.283,"endTime":2326.703,"body":"in what we're talking about now."},{"startTime":2326.703,"endTime":2328.073,"body":"You can't, it's what the customer needs."},{"startTime":2328.223,"endTime":2329.923,"body":"How about we talk to"},{"startTime":2328.223,"endTime":2329.923,"body":"the customer about this?"},{"startTime":2329.943,"endTime":2330.843,"body":"Well, I've already talked to the customer."},{"startTime":2330.843,"endTime":2331.723,"body":"You don't need to talk to the customer."},{"startTime":2331.723,"endTime":2331.973,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2332.273,"endTime":2333.543,"body":"Like, these are all red flags."},{"startTime":2333.543,"endTime":2335.573,"body":"Like, there's a problem here, you know."},{"startTime":2335.723,"endTime":2338.063,"body":"I say be data driven, right?"},{"startTime":2338.063,"endTime":2340.653,"body":"That's the way to go because then"},{"startTime":2338.063,"endTime":2340.653,"body":"you can take out the emotions"},{"startTime":2340.653,"endTime":2343.133,"body":"out of it and say, well, the data"},{"startTime":2340.653,"endTime":2343.133,"body":"doesn't show that or does show that."},{"startTime":2343.263,"endTime":2344.343,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2344.343,"endTime":2345.503,"body":"What are we, what am I missing?"},{"startTime":2345.503,"endTime":2348.193,"body":"My, my research shows me this, right?"},{"startTime":2348.343,"endTime":2349.163,"body":"What am I missing?"},{"startTime":2349.433,"endTime":2352.803,"body":"So it's better to talk to the actual"},{"startTime":2349.433,"endTime":2352.803,"body":"customer in all these circumstances."},{"startTime":2352.843,"endTime":2355.753,"body":"It's any of these people tell"},{"startTime":2352.843,"endTime":2355.753,"body":"you, I've talked to customers,"},{"startTime":2355.763,"endTime":2357.313,"body":"say, great, no problem."},{"startTime":2357.463,"endTime":2359.413,"body":"You know, let's get on a"},{"startTime":2357.463,"endTime":2359.413,"body":"call with the customer."},{"startTime":2359.413,"endTime":2363.293,"body":"Just after we kind of make sure we"},{"startTime":2359.413,"endTime":2363.293,"body":"understand what their problem is from you."},{"startTime":2363.293,"endTime":2365.523,"body":"And we write it all up"},{"startTime":2363.293,"endTime":2365.523,"body":"and we get ready to start."},{"startTime":2365.733,"endTime":2368.073,"body":"Before we start writing code,"},{"startTime":2365.733,"endTime":2368.073,"body":"before we implement anything,"},{"startTime":2368.353,"endTime":2371.203,"body":"maybe we have some wireframes and"},{"startTime":2368.353,"endTime":2371.203,"body":"we can do some MVP tests, right?"},{"startTime":2371.353,"endTime":2373.113,"body":"Would you be willing to get"},{"startTime":2371.353,"endTime":2373.113,"body":"back on with the customer?"},{"startTime":2373.163,"endTime":2373.863,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2373.863,"endTime":2374.513,"body":"Sounds great."},{"startTime":2374.523,"endTime":2375.413,"body":"That's the process."},{"startTime":2375.413,"endTime":2376.013,"body":"Let's do it."},{"startTime":2376.143,"endTime":2380.343,"body":"Now we're talking to the actual customer"},{"startTime":2376.143,"endTime":2380.343,"body":"now, like the rubber has now hit the road."},{"startTime":2380.493,"endTime":2383.473,"body":"So we're talking to the direct, we're"},{"startTime":2380.493,"endTime":2383.473,"body":"directly talking to the customer."},{"startTime":2383.473,"endTime":2385.433,"body":"They can give us direct feedback."},{"startTime":2385.433,"endTime":2387.433,"body":"They can talk directly"},{"startTime":2385.433,"endTime":2387.433,"body":"about their pain points."},{"startTime":2387.433,"endTime":2389.983,"body":"They can tell you about what they're"},{"startTime":2387.433,"endTime":2389.983,"body":"doing now, what they're doing"},{"startTime":2389.983,"endTime":2392.413,"body":"inside the software, what they have"},{"startTime":2389.983,"endTime":2392.413,"body":"to go out of the software to do."},{"startTime":2392.468,"endTime":2394.898,"body":"What they really wish that the"},{"startTime":2392.468,"endTime":2394.898,"body":"software would do for them."},{"startTime":2395.118,"endTime":2396.368,"body":"You can validate ideas."},{"startTime":2396.368,"endTime":2399.148,"body":"You can run through MVP"},{"startTime":2396.368,"endTime":2399.148,"body":"experiments, stuff like that."},{"startTime":2399.148,"endTime":2404.568,"body":"However, however like I've run a lot of"},{"startTime":2399.148,"endTime":2404.568,"body":"tests with MVPs in front of customers,"},{"startTime":2404.748,"endTime":2408.738,"body":"and I think the, the best that you're"},{"startTime":2404.748,"endTime":2408.738,"body":"going to get from a customer, unless"},{"startTime":2408.738,"endTime":2410.278,"body":"that customer is a product manager."},{"startTime":2410.428,"endTime":2414.268,"body":"Because I tell people all, if someone"},{"startTime":2410.428,"endTime":2414.268,"body":"puts a product in front of me, I"},{"startTime":2414.268,"endTime":2418.538,"body":"am brutal, brutal on the product."},{"startTime":2418.768,"endTime":2422.018,"body":"But the majority of people that I interact"},{"startTime":2418.768,"endTime":2422.018,"body":"with, especially with my products."},{"startTime":2422.168,"endTime":2423.398,"body":"They're like, Oh, okay."},{"startTime":2423.398,"endTime":2424.358,"body":"Yeah, it looks pretty good."},{"startTime":2424.448,"endTime":2425.068,"body":"Oh, it's nice."},{"startTime":2425.098,"endTime":2426.138,"body":"I like, I like it."},{"startTime":2426.188,"endTime":2427.178,"body":"And then they just quietly don't."},{"startTime":2427.198,"endTime":2427.878,"body":"It's fine."},{"startTime":2427.888,"endTime":2428.378,"body":"Yeah, it's fine."},{"startTime":2428.418,"endTime":2428.728,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2428.798,"endTime":2429.008,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2429.008,"endTime":2429.218,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2429.528,"endTime":2430.988,"body":"No, you're absolutely correct."},{"startTime":2431.288,"endTime":2434.508,"body":"I, I would sort of just underline"},{"startTime":2431.288,"endTime":2434.508,"body":"what you said about you know, are you"},{"startTime":2434.508,"endTime":2436.258,"body":"talking to the real customer, right?"},{"startTime":2436.408,"endTime":2438.468,"body":"And this isn't just at"},{"startTime":2436.408,"endTime":2438.468,"body":"the beginning, right?"},{"startTime":2438.468,"endTime":2439.178,"body":"This is throughout."},{"startTime":2439.328,"endTime":2440.608,"body":"Yes, at the beginning."},{"startTime":2440.648,"endTime":2443.218,"body":"Are you speaking to the"},{"startTime":2440.648,"endTime":2443.218,"body":"customer or a customer proxy?"},{"startTime":2443.218,"endTime":2445.278,"body":"You got to weed that out, right?"},{"startTime":2445.308,"endTime":2447.668,"body":"If somebody say, well,"},{"startTime":2445.308,"endTime":2447.668,"body":"my users do it this way."},{"startTime":2447.818,"endTime":2449.258,"body":"Can I talk to your users, right?"},{"startTime":2449.588,"endTime":2450.698,"body":"Who's actually using it?"},{"startTime":2450.848,"endTime":2454.158,"body":"And then do the gemba walk, walk in"},{"startTime":2450.848,"endTime":2454.158,"body":"their shoes for a day to figure that out."},{"startTime":2454.208,"endTime":2455.588,"body":"Like what are the real pain points?"},{"startTime":2455.588,"endTime":2457.218,"body":"Feel them, experience them, right?"},{"startTime":2457.368,"endTime":2458.188,"body":"But don't stop there."},{"startTime":2458.208,"endTime":2461.098,"body":"When you have those"},{"startTime":2458.208,"endTime":2461.098,"body":"those reviews or demos."},{"startTime":2461.248,"endTime":2461.548,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2461.588,"endTime":2465.578,"body":"I'm a fan of not just doing"},{"startTime":2461.588,"endTime":2465.578,"body":"a demo for the customer."},{"startTime":2465.728,"endTime":2466.618,"body":"This all works."},{"startTime":2466.768,"endTime":2468.078,"body":"Ignore the man behind the curtain."},{"startTime":2468.408,"endTime":2468.778,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2468.928,"endTime":2471.618,"body":"I like to just turn it over"},{"startTime":2468.928,"endTime":2471.618,"body":"and go, here, you play with it."},{"startTime":2471.958,"endTime":2476.068,"body":"And typically that that happens on the"},{"startTime":2471.958,"endTime":2476.068,"body":"state on a kind of stage environment where"},{"startTime":2476.068,"endTime":2480.898,"body":"you have the customers data replicated"},{"startTime":2476.068,"endTime":2480.898,"body":"from their production system reasonably in"},{"startTime":2480.898,"endTime":2485.318,"body":"the recent past, so they can recognize the"},{"startTime":2480.898,"endTime":2485.318,"body":"data and they're testing the capability"},{"startTime":2485.318,"endTime":2487.288,"body":"of the features, functionality, etcetera."},{"startTime":2487.438,"endTime":2490.638,"body":"on their data in a separate"},{"startTime":2487.438,"endTime":2490.638,"body":"environment from production."},{"startTime":2490.638,"endTime":2493.408,"body":"But it's production like he's just"},{"startTime":2490.638,"endTime":2493.408,"body":"not going to production with it."},{"startTime":2493.558,"endTime":2496.838,"body":"But the point is, they're"},{"startTime":2493.558,"endTime":2496.838,"body":"doing the testing, not the U."},{"startTime":2496.838,"endTime":2496.928,"body":"A."},{"startTime":2496.968,"endTime":2497.138,"body":"T."},{"startTime":2497.138,"endTime":2500.528,"body":"Team within your company coming up"},{"startTime":2497.138,"endTime":2500.528,"body":"with charts that say X number of"},{"startTime":2500.528,"endTime":2502.718,"body":"test cases, Y number passed, right?"},{"startTime":2502.868,"endTime":2504.088,"body":"There's no substitute for that."},{"startTime":2504.118,"endTime":2505.738,"body":"I mean, you're getting a lot for that."},{"startTime":2505.758,"endTime":2509.338,"body":"You're not only getting feedback directly"},{"startTime":2505.758,"endTime":2509.338,"body":"from the customer, but you're also"},{"startTime":2509.338,"endTime":2511.438,"body":"building trust that this thing is real."},{"startTime":2511.488,"endTime":2513.268,"body":"There is no man behind the curtain, right?"},{"startTime":2513.518,"endTime":2517.848,"body":"If you can get to that point, I think"},{"startTime":2513.518,"endTime":2517.848,"body":"you're ahead of the curve here, right?"},{"startTime":2517.998,"endTime":2519.088,"body":"So I like to strive for that."},{"startTime":2519.088,"endTime":2522.938,"body":"I don't always get that for various"},{"startTime":2519.088,"endTime":2522.938,"body":"reasons, but I do keep going after that."},{"startTime":2523.088,"endTime":2526.308,"body":"when you open up the floodgates and"},{"startTime":2523.088,"endTime":2526.308,"body":"you actually have your developers"},{"startTime":2526.318,"endTime":2529.468,"body":"and your product management team"},{"startTime":2526.318,"endTime":2529.468,"body":"talking to customers, like what"},{"startTime":2529.498,"endTime":2533.208,"body":"is to keep the customer from just"},{"startTime":2529.498,"endTime":2533.208,"body":"overwhelming you like every day."},{"startTime":2533.228,"endTime":2535.738,"body":"Like I, I had a, I had"},{"startTime":2533.228,"endTime":2535.738,"body":"a, I had a team one time."},{"startTime":2536.018,"endTime":2543.188,"body":"Where they had a shared slack channel"},{"startTime":2536.018,"endTime":2543.188,"body":"with a customer and it was a terror,"},{"startTime":2543.338,"endTime":2546.688,"body":"like the customers like would randomly"},{"startTime":2543.338,"endTime":2546.688,"body":"just ask for things to be changed"},{"startTime":2546.688,"endTime":2549.678,"body":"and and in this, this slack channel"},{"startTime":2546.688,"endTime":2549.678,"body":"went straight to the developers."},{"startTime":2549.678,"endTime":2551.458,"body":"It was their developers"},{"startTime":2549.678,"endTime":2551.458,"body":"and our developers."},{"startTime":2551.468,"endTime":2556.228,"body":"So it All kinds of backdoor feature"},{"startTime":2551.468,"endTime":2556.228,"body":"requests and things that were kind"},{"startTime":2556.228,"endTime":2560.488,"body":"of shooting around product management"},{"startTime":2556.228,"endTime":2560.488,"body":"they're outside of prioritization"},{"startTime":2560.488,"endTime":2564.358,"body":"and the developers would rightly"},{"startTime":2560.488,"endTime":2564.358,"body":"say it's what the customer wants."},{"startTime":2564.358,"endTime":2566.198,"body":"Like the customer directly"},{"startTime":2564.358,"endTime":2566.198,"body":"asked me for this."},{"startTime":2566.198,"endTime":2568.998,"body":"I have to like, I have to do"},{"startTime":2566.198,"endTime":2568.998,"body":"what the customer asks, right?"},{"startTime":2569.008,"endTime":2569.298,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2569.518,"endTime":2569.828,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2569.848,"endTime":2573.098,"body":"And look, some customers are really,"},{"startTime":2569.848,"endTime":2573.098,"body":"that's a rogue process, first of all,"},{"startTime":2573.098,"endTime":2577.268,"body":"but some customers are really smart about"},{"startTime":2573.098,"endTime":2577.268,"body":"how they how they proceed with this."},{"startTime":2577.418,"endTime":2579.428,"body":"They will hit up a developer and say."},{"startTime":2579.578,"endTime":2581.078,"body":"That stuff you did for me last time?"},{"startTime":2581.228,"endTime":2581.868,"body":"Fantastic."},{"startTime":2581.938,"endTime":2582.788,"body":"You're such a smart guy."},{"startTime":2583.038,"endTime":2584.018,"body":"I just need this little thing."},{"startTime":2584.018,"endTime":2586.118,"body":"I know you can knock it down"},{"startTime":2584.018,"endTime":2586.118,"body":"in a couple of hours, right?"},{"startTime":2586.118,"endTime":2586.658,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2586.808,"endTime":2587.738,"body":"Hour tops."},{"startTime":2588.028,"endTime":2591.078,"body":"And next thing you know, that"},{"startTime":2588.028,"endTime":2591.078,"body":"developer is now pivoted away from"},{"startTime":2591.078,"endTime":2592.208,"body":"what they were supposed to be doing."},{"startTime":2592.238,"endTime":2592.668,"body":"All of that."},{"startTime":2592.688,"endTime":2593.818,"body":"We know how this works."},{"startTime":2594.168,"endTime":2597.828,"body":"Look, I don't think we should"},{"startTime":2594.168,"endTime":2597.828,"body":"shut down the communication"},{"startTime":2597.878,"endTime":2598.828,"body":"channel with the customer."},{"startTime":2598.868,"endTime":2599.728,"body":"First and foremost."},{"startTime":2599.878,"endTime":2604.818,"body":"But, at the same time This open channel,"},{"startTime":2599.878,"endTime":2604.818,"body":"like a Slack with developers, between"},{"startTime":2604.818,"endTime":2607.158,"body":"developers, customer developers, etc."},{"startTime":2607.308,"endTime":2608.788,"body":"That is a recipe for disaster."},{"startTime":2608.788,"endTime":2612.518,"body":"I think what might work better is to"},{"startTime":2608.788,"endTime":2612.518,"body":"kind of have a filtering stage in there."},{"startTime":2612.848,"endTime":2614.698,"body":"So, welcome all ideas."},{"startTime":2614.848,"endTime":2618.418,"body":"Stress that there are no guarantees the"},{"startTime":2614.848,"endTime":2618.418,"body":"ideas are going to be implemented, right?"},{"startTime":2618.418,"endTime":2621.548,"body":"This is just simply"},{"startTime":2618.418,"endTime":2621.548,"body":"ideation only at this stage."},{"startTime":2621.838,"endTime":2624.568,"body":"When somebody goes through the"},{"startTime":2621.838,"endTime":2624.568,"body":"Maybe your product people, and"},{"startTime":2624.568,"endTime":2626.518,"body":"say, Okay, this idea over here."},{"startTime":2626.568,"endTime":2628.358,"body":"And they can put that on the side, right?"},{"startTime":2628.358,"endTime":2632.528,"body":"Because they believe, knowing everything"},{"startTime":2628.358,"endTime":2632.528,"body":"they know, that this is worth pursuing."},{"startTime":2632.678,"endTime":2636.268,"body":"And then turn that back around"},{"startTime":2632.678,"endTime":2636.268,"body":"and say to the other customers"},{"startTime":2636.268,"endTime":2637.683,"body":"that didn't propose the idea."},{"startTime":2638.013,"endTime":2638.743,"body":"What do you think?"},{"startTime":2638.793,"endTime":2639.023,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2639.173,"endTime":2641.173,"body":"And then see how many hits"},{"startTime":2639.173,"endTime":2641.173,"body":"you get on that, right?"},{"startTime":2641.173,"endTime":2645.503,"body":"If you get a lot of people saying that"},{"startTime":2641.173,"endTime":2645.503,"body":"they like it and again, be data driven,"},{"startTime":2645.543,"endTime":2649.513,"body":"don't just ask for thumbs up, thumbs"},{"startTime":2645.543,"endTime":2649.513,"body":"down, ask for a scale of do you want this?"},{"startTime":2649.513,"endTime":2650.063,"body":"Do you not?"},{"startTime":2650.073,"endTime":2652.123,"body":"On a scale of one to five,"},{"startTime":2650.073,"endTime":2652.123,"body":"whatever, whatever, how you do this."},{"startTime":2652.443,"endTime":2654.343,"body":"But be objective about it."},{"startTime":2654.613,"endTime":2658.313,"body":"And that's how you weed out"},{"startTime":2654.613,"endTime":2658.313,"body":"the things that most customers"},{"startTime":2658.313,"endTime":2659.743,"body":"want or more customers want."},{"startTime":2659.763,"endTime":2660.783,"body":"Not just one customer."},{"startTime":2660.933,"endTime":2664.413,"body":"Again, even at this point, there are"},{"startTime":2660.933,"endTime":2664.413,"body":"no guarantees because you've spoken"},{"startTime":2664.413,"endTime":2665.983,"body":"to nobody else about it, right?"},{"startTime":2666.203,"endTime":2669.773,"body":"Now, internally to your company,"},{"startTime":2666.203,"endTime":2669.773,"body":"you can look through those with"},{"startTime":2669.773,"endTime":2671.543,"body":"your architects, et cetera, right?"},{"startTime":2671.653,"endTime":2673.123,"body":"Team leads, everybody you need."},{"startTime":2673.273,"endTime":2676.993,"body":"This is all an internal meeting and"},{"startTime":2673.273,"endTime":2676.993,"body":"say, of these, as a product manager,"},{"startTime":2677.013,"endTime":2679.973,"body":"I think this one's worth chasing"},{"startTime":2677.013,"endTime":2679.973,"body":"and then this one and then this one."},{"startTime":2680.073,"endTime":2680.383,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2680.533,"endTime":2681.123,"body":"Can we do this?"},{"startTime":2681.193,"endTime":2682.783,"body":"Can we roughly size these?"},{"startTime":2682.793,"endTime":2683.513,"body":"Roughly, right?"},{"startTime":2683.553,"endTime":2684.843,"body":"These are the initial swags."},{"startTime":2684.993,"endTime":2686.843,"body":"Again, there's no guarantees yet."},{"startTime":2687.163,"endTime":2689.763,"body":"Now the communication piece"},{"startTime":2687.163,"endTime":2689.763,"body":"happens with your customers."},{"startTime":2689.823,"endTime":2694.213,"body":"At that point, what you just did though,"},{"startTime":2689.823,"endTime":2694.213,"body":"is at least you took that one customer"},{"startTime":2694.213,"endTime":2698.693,"body":"request for that one customer and you"},{"startTime":2694.213,"endTime":2698.693,"body":"brought it to a broader audience to say,"},{"startTime":2698.693,"endTime":2703.523,"body":"Okay look, customer access, they're a big"},{"startTime":2698.693,"endTime":2703.523,"body":"customer for us, they're strategic, right?"},{"startTime":2703.673,"endTime":2705.943,"body":"And what they say is really"},{"startTime":2703.673,"endTime":2705.943,"body":"important, , do we really need to"},{"startTime":2705.953,"endTime":2708.853,"body":"add a Y button next to the X button?"},{"startTime":2708.853,"endTime":2710.153,"body":"So we have an X and a Y button."},{"startTime":2710.153,"endTime":2712.753,"body":"Like, does any other"},{"startTime":2710.153,"endTime":2712.753,"body":"customer need a Y button?"},{"startTime":2712.753,"endTime":2715.053,"body":"Is that something we can sell"},{"startTime":2712.753,"endTime":2715.053,"body":"in the future or whatever?"},{"startTime":2715.053,"endTime":2717.333,"body":"Like, there needs to be"},{"startTime":2715.053,"endTime":2717.333,"body":"a discussion about that."},{"startTime":2717.353,"endTime":2720.913,"body":"Like, how it's going to join the"},{"startTime":2717.353,"endTime":2720.913,"body":"ecosystem of the rest of the products."},{"startTime":2721.133,"endTime":2725.543,"body":"You know, do we really need to build"},{"startTime":2721.133,"endTime":2725.543,"body":"a Slack integration into our product?"},{"startTime":2725.543,"endTime":2726.853,"body":"Or something like that, right?"},{"startTime":2727.093,"endTime":2728.903,"body":"Like, will other customers pay for it?"},{"startTime":2728.953,"endTime":2731.193,"body":"And also because this one"},{"startTime":2728.953,"endTime":2731.193,"body":"customer is asking for it."},{"startTime":2731.193,"endTime":2731.223,"body":"Like."},{"startTime":2731.373,"endTime":2734.203,"body":"Maybe they, maybe they're not a"},{"startTime":2731.373,"endTime":2734.203,"body":"great representation of the whole"},{"startTime":2734.213,"endTime":2735.653,"body":"market of all of our Exactly."},{"startTime":2735.803,"endTime":2737.813,"body":"We may not even need to build a Y button."},{"startTime":2737.963,"endTime":2740.793,"body":"You're just trying to validate whether"},{"startTime":2737.963,"endTime":2740.793,"body":"you even have to go after that or not."},{"startTime":2740.943,"endTime":2744.623,"body":"There's this fallacy though that"},{"startTime":2740.943,"endTime":2744.623,"body":"is, if the customer wants to get"},{"startTime":2744.633,"endTime":2748.053,"body":"something, and if it, even if it's"},{"startTime":2744.633,"endTime":2748.053,"body":"one, you just give them a quote for it."},{"startTime":2748.123,"endTime":2749.533,"body":"And if they pay for it, they get it."},{"startTime":2749.683,"endTime":2750.513,"body":"That's a fallacy."},{"startTime":2750.613,"endTime":2754.178,"body":"Your product's going to go Become"},{"startTime":2750.613,"endTime":2754.178,"body":"a frankens or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":2754.218,"endTime":2756.028,"body":"I will tell you a real story here."},{"startTime":2756.028,"endTime":2760.688,"body":"So a real talk right quick we implemented"},{"startTime":2756.028,"endTime":2760.688,"body":"a chat inside of a mobile application"},{"startTime":2760.928,"endTime":2762.048,"body":"because a customer asked for it."},{"startTime":2762.058,"endTime":2764.298,"body":"They wanted to be able to"},{"startTime":2762.058,"endTime":2764.298,"body":"chat directly with the users."},{"startTime":2764.448,"endTime":2765.458,"body":"B to B to C."},{"startTime":2765.608,"endTime":2769.088,"body":"So we sold to another business and then"},{"startTime":2765.608,"endTime":2769.088,"body":"they unloaded their customers, right?"},{"startTime":2769.238,"endTime":2771.868,"body":"Their customers wanted to be able to"},{"startTime":2769.238,"endTime":2771.868,"body":"chat back with the home office and then"},{"startTime":2771.878,"endTime":2773.238,"body":"chat back to the customers or whatever."},{"startTime":2773.388,"endTime":2773.878,"body":"Terrible."},{"startTime":2773.928,"endTime":2776.278,"body":"It was a, a colossal."},{"startTime":2776.428,"endTime":2777.698,"body":"Colossally bad."},{"startTime":2777.738,"endTime":2778.458,"body":"Colossally bad."},{"startTime":2778.458,"endTime":2779.558,"body":"That's not what it was."},{"startTime":2779.558,"endTime":2781.418,"body":"It was a monumentally better."},{"startTime":2781.418,"endTime":2783.928,"body":"It was a monumentally poor"},{"startTime":2781.418,"endTime":2783.928,"body":"feature for us to implement."},{"startTime":2783.958,"endTime":2788.408,"body":"We should have just taken one of the"},{"startTime":2783.958,"endTime":2788.408,"body":"one billion chat clients off the shelf."},{"startTime":2788.418,"endTime":2788.918,"body":"Embed it."},{"startTime":2789.028,"endTime":2790.178,"body":"And put it into the application."},{"startTime":2790.178,"endTime":2791.128,"body":"We should not have built it."},{"startTime":2791.128,"endTime":2795.978,"body":"Because it was like the world of"},{"startTime":2791.128,"endTime":2795.978,"body":"real time two way chat is the world"},{"startTime":2795.978,"endTime":2800.278,"body":"of very fast queuing and processing."},{"startTime":2800.428,"endTime":2803.438,"body":"And not, not something that"},{"startTime":2800.428,"endTime":2803.438,"body":"we were in the business of."},{"startTime":2803.588,"endTime":2806.748,"body":"In any way, shape or form, we,"},{"startTime":2803.588,"endTime":2806.748,"body":"we certainly learned how to do it"},{"startTime":2806.748,"endTime":2808.148,"body":"along the way, but it's expensive."},{"startTime":2808.298,"endTime":2810.878,"body":"Whoever made that decision on"},{"startTime":2808.298,"endTime":2810.878,"body":"the product side, they, they were"},{"startTime":2810.878,"endTime":2814.678,"body":"on some very heavy medication,"},{"startTime":2810.878,"endTime":2814.678,"body":"possibly prescription, possibly not."},{"startTime":2814.698,"endTime":2815.468,"body":"I really don't know."},{"startTime":2815.638,"endTime":2818.628,"body":"They may have been mixing it with other"},{"startTime":2815.638,"endTime":2818.628,"body":"things because it was a bad decision"},{"startTime":2818.628,"endTime":2822.588,"body":"that drugged the whole thing down,"},{"startTime":2818.628,"endTime":2822.588,"body":"brought the system down several times."},{"startTime":2822.608,"endTime":2823.558,"body":"It was just bad."},{"startTime":2823.588,"endTime":2826.188,"body":"The industry is laden with"},{"startTime":2823.588,"endTime":2826.188,"body":"examples like that though."},{"startTime":2826.338,"endTime":2829.478,"body":"Unfortunately, but it's because they did"},{"startTime":2826.338,"endTime":2829.478,"body":"something that the customer asked for."},{"startTime":2829.478,"endTime":2832.418,"body":"The customer had no idea about"},{"startTime":2829.478,"endTime":2832.418,"body":"our architecture and then they"},{"startTime":2832.438,"endTime":2835.948,"body":"basically, by the time they said"},{"startTime":2832.438,"endTime":2835.948,"body":"yes, it was too late for them to back"},{"startTime":2835.948,"endTime":2837.978,"body":"out and they had to implement it."},{"startTime":2838.218,"endTime":2842.738,"body":"So they got led into something because"},{"startTime":2838.218,"endTime":2842.738,"body":"the customer didn't know they didn't know"},{"startTime":2842.738,"endTime":2844.118,"body":"how we were planning to implement it."},{"startTime":2844.268,"endTime":2847.518,"body":"Yeah, it's a good example of the fallacy"},{"startTime":2844.268,"endTime":2847.518,"body":"I talk about because you know, if you"},{"startTime":2847.518,"endTime":2849.018,"body":"extend the argument further, right?"},{"startTime":2849.028,"endTime":2851.868,"body":"So customer a wants something and"},{"startTime":2849.028,"endTime":2851.868,"body":"you charge him and you build it."},{"startTime":2852.018,"endTime":2854.098,"body":"And now suddenly customer B wants that."},{"startTime":2854.358,"endTime":2856.078,"body":"How do you, how do you meter that out?"},{"startTime":2856.398,"endTime":2858.678,"body":"Do you just give it to customer"},{"startTime":2856.398,"endTime":2858.678,"body":"B now that it's in the product"},{"startTime":2858.678,"endTime":2859.978,"body":"so it's free for everybody else?"},{"startTime":2860.038,"endTime":2860.278,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2860.538,"endTime":2860.858,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2860.888,"endTime":2861.088,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2861.278,"endTime":2865.378,"body":"So I think that's where diligent"},{"startTime":2861.278,"endTime":2865.378,"body":"product managers, or product"},{"startTime":2865.418,"endTime":2869.168,"body":"management, and even sales for that"},{"startTime":2865.418,"endTime":2869.168,"body":"matter, they all need to get together"},{"startTime":2869.168,"endTime":2870.888,"body":"and say, Are we going to do this?"},{"startTime":2870.958,"endTime":2873.198,"body":"If we are, what are the"},{"startTime":2870.958,"endTime":2873.198,"body":"reasons why we should do this?"},{"startTime":2873.238,"endTime":2874.958,"body":"Marketing has a space in there too."},{"startTime":2874.968,"endTime":2877.658,"body":"How can we repackage this and"},{"startTime":2874.968,"endTime":2877.658,"body":"make more money off of it?"},{"startTime":2877.698,"endTime":2878.338,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2878.508,"endTime":2878.838,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":2878.838,"endTime":2881.668,"body":"But yeah, just doing it because"},{"startTime":2878.838,"endTime":2881.668,"body":"the customer told us like, Ooh,"},{"startTime":2881.818,"endTime":2884.118,"body":"like you're missing a, you're"},{"startTime":2881.818,"endTime":2884.118,"body":"missing the gold mine potentially."},{"startTime":2884.128,"endTime":2885.888,"body":"Well, this, I mean,"},{"startTime":2884.128,"endTime":2885.888,"body":"this is a fun category."},{"startTime":2885.888,"endTime":2888.478,"body":"I don't hear, I don't hear,"},{"startTime":2885.888,"endTime":2888.478,"body":"Hey, customer told me to do it."},{"startTime":2888.488,"endTime":2892.018,"body":"Like help me push back on this a little"},{"startTime":2888.488,"endTime":2892.018,"body":"bit or not help me figure out what the"},{"startTime":2892.018,"endTime":2893.508,"body":"best way to, to go forward with this."},{"startTime":2893.658,"endTime":2895.868,"body":"I didn't expect this to go this"},{"startTime":2893.658,"endTime":2895.868,"body":"long with this conversation."},{"startTime":2895.998,"endTime":2898.988,"body":"I'm gonna be honest I thought it was"},{"startTime":2895.998,"endTime":2898.988,"body":"like an open and shut kind of deal But"},{"startTime":2899.328,"endTime":2902.288,"body":"apparently there's more personas that we"},{"startTime":2899.328,"endTime":2902.288,"body":"could have probably thought of I thought"},{"startTime":2902.288,"endTime":2906.298,"body":"of one or two in my head while we were"},{"startTime":2902.288,"endTime":2906.298,"body":"talking So if you have other personas To"},{"startTime":2906.298,"endTime":2910.538,"body":"explore we didn't talk about support or"},{"startTime":2906.298,"endTime":2910.538,"body":"customer support or any people like that."},{"startTime":2910.688,"endTime":2913.368,"body":"If you can think of other, other"},{"startTime":2910.688,"endTime":2913.368,"body":"people we didn't bring up Hey, maybe"},{"startTime":2913.368,"endTime":2914.968,"body":"this would be worth revisiting."},{"startTime":2915.118,"endTime":2915.548,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2915.598,"endTime":2918.448,"body":"Hopefully you found it useful if"},{"startTime":2915.598,"endTime":2918.448,"body":"you're still with us this far."},{"startTime":2918.458,"endTime":2920.358,"body":"Hopefully it's what the"},{"startTime":2918.458,"endTime":2920.358,"body":"customer said they wanted."},{"startTime":2920.508,"endTime":2923.608,"body":"Now let's know what you think"},{"startTime":2920.508,"endTime":2923.608,"body":"about this and other topics that"},{"startTime":2923.608,"endTime":2924.788,"body":"you'd like us to delve into."},{"startTime":2924.938,"endTime":2926.948,"body":"Subscribe and like down below."},{"startTime":2927.098,"endTime":2927.848,"body":"Cue the music."},{"startTime":2927.998,"endTime":2929.258,"body":"He has to hit my music."},{"startTime":2929.408,"endTime":2930.588,"body":"Oh, there's still no music."}]}