{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":17.952,"endTime":19.237,"body":"Welcome back to Arguing Agile."},{"startTime":19.237,"endTime":22.726,"body":"We had a podcast a while ago"},{"startTime":19.237,"endTime":22.726,"body":"called weaponizing Efficiency."},{"startTime":22.786,"endTime":22.936,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":23.086,"endTime":26.676,"body":"And now we're doing sort of a"},{"startTime":23.086,"endTime":26.676,"body":"part two with a podcast we have"},{"startTime":26.676,"endTime":29.466,"body":"titled Weaponizing Standardization"},{"startTime":29.666,"endTime":33.736,"body":"this podcast idea came up because I"},{"startTime":29.666,"endTime":33.736,"body":"was in an interview where somebody"},{"startTime":33.746,"endTime":37.423,"body":"asked me I see that you've been"},{"startTime":33.746,"endTime":37.423,"body":"through mergers and acquisitions."},{"startTime":37.543,"endTime":40.953,"body":"What is your opinion on standardization?"},{"startTime":41.183,"endTime":43.853,"body":"Because a lot of times when you get"},{"startTime":41.183,"endTime":43.853,"body":"integrated into a larger company,"},{"startTime":44.023,"endTime":45.233,"body":"there's a lot of initiatives."},{"startTime":45.523,"endTime":49.653,"body":"to standardize things and to"},{"startTime":45.523,"endTime":49.653,"body":"sanitize things and I can't remember"},{"startTime":49.653,"endTime":53.033,"body":"the exact language the individual"},{"startTime":49.653,"endTime":53.033,"body":"used in the interview but it got"},{"startTime":53.033,"endTime":56.523,"body":"me thinking I was like you know"},{"startTime":53.033,"endTime":56.523,"body":"I'd  I do have some experiences in"},{"startTime":56.573,"endTime":58.093,"body":"in this in this arena to talk about"},{"startTime":58.243,"endTime":60.903,"body":"yeah absolutely and this happens"},{"startTime":58.243,"endTime":60.903,"body":"right whether you know whether"},{"startTime":60.903,"endTime":62.403,"body":"it's an M\u0026 A or You know."},{"startTime":62.463,"endTime":62.643,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":62.643,"endTime":64.083,"body":"A divestiture or whatever."},{"startTime":64.353,"endTime":65.703,"body":"I find that word hard to pronounce."},{"startTime":65.763,"endTime":67.263,"body":"But anyway, split up . Yeah."},{"startTime":67.263,"endTime":69.063,"body":"So that this happens all the time."},{"startTime":69.183,"endTime":73.283,"body":"The company buying the other"},{"startTime":69.183,"endTime":73.283,"body":"company will typically come in"},{"startTime":73.283,"endTime":74.513,"body":"and say, this is how we work."},{"startTime":74.573,"endTime":74.753,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":74.903,"endTime":76.373,"body":"Everybody just assimilate."},{"startTime":76.523,"endTime":76.853,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":77.003,"endTime":81.203,"body":"And so this podcast is gonna delve deeper"},{"startTime":77.003,"endTime":81.203,"body":"into why that's good or why that's bad."},{"startTime":81.353,"endTime":84.843,"body":"Well, Let's not make everyone guess"},{"startTime":81.353,"endTime":84.843,"body":"about what side I'm on in this"},{"startTime":84.843,"endTime":88.443,"body":"conversation, Because I'm going to dive"},{"startTime":84.843,"endTime":88.443,"body":"into point number one, when you deal"},{"startTime":88.443,"endTime":93.578,"body":"with standardization, the challenge"},{"startTime":88.443,"endTime":93.578,"body":"of standardizing all of your software"},{"startTime":93.578,"endTime":98.098,"body":"development teams or your processes or"},{"startTime":93.578,"endTime":98.098,"body":"your processes, if you live somewhere is"},{"startTime":98.248,"endTime":102.428,"body":"that you said a good chance of stifling"},{"startTime":98.248,"endTime":102.428,"body":"innovation when you start laying down."},{"startTime":102.763,"endTime":105.393,"body":"Heavy, heavy processes that"},{"startTime":102.763,"endTime":105.393,"body":"have to govern everything."},{"startTime":105.393,"endTime":106.953,"body":"And they had that word governance."},{"startTime":106.983,"endTime":107.543,"body":"Oh no."},{"startTime":107.543,"endTime":110.943,"body":"It's got to go through governance"},{"startTime":107.543,"endTime":110.943,"body":"before we can start any new"},{"startTime":110.953,"endTime":115.263,"body":"initiatives or exploring new"},{"startTime":110.953,"endTime":115.263,"body":"technologies or do any cool stunts."},{"startTime":115.413,"endTime":115.643,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":115.643,"endTime":119.903,"body":"So the first thing I'd say"},{"startTime":115.643,"endTime":119.903,"body":"here is that the acquire or."},{"startTime":119.918,"endTime":123.568,"body":"The company that acquires the other"},{"startTime":119.918,"endTime":123.568,"body":"company or merges, usually there's,"},{"startTime":123.868,"endTime":125.608,"body":"they're not merges of equals."},{"startTime":125.708,"endTime":129.588,"body":"They really don't bother to"},{"startTime":125.708,"endTime":129.588,"body":"get the context of the working"},{"startTime":129.588,"endTime":131.308,"body":"situation of the other company."},{"startTime":131.548,"endTime":134.018,"body":"They simply come in and say,"},{"startTime":131.548,"endTime":134.018,"body":"this is how we've been working."},{"startTime":134.228,"endTime":135.878,"body":"This is how everyone will be working."},{"startTime":135.878,"endTime":136.118,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":136.408,"endTime":140.448,"body":"So from that perspective and from the"},{"startTime":136.408,"endTime":140.448,"body":"point of view of the company that has"},{"startTime":140.448,"endTime":144.688,"body":"just been acquired, you are stifling"},{"startTime":140.448,"endTime":144.688,"body":"innovation because you're saying, get"},{"startTime":144.688,"endTime":146.558,"body":"in line and do all of these things."},{"startTime":146.708,"endTime":147.768,"body":"That we want you to do, right?"},{"startTime":147.818,"endTime":151.318,"body":"These are all maybe bureaucratic"},{"startTime":147.818,"endTime":151.318,"body":"to some people, but this is how"},{"startTime":151.318,"endTime":152.678,"body":"we need you to do things, right?"},{"startTime":152.718,"endTime":155.428,"body":"These are the systems we"},{"startTime":152.718,"endTime":155.428,"body":"need you to use, for example."},{"startTime":155.758,"endTime":159.218,"body":"So instead of coming up"},{"startTime":155.758,"endTime":159.218,"body":"with a solution, right?"},{"startTime":159.368,"endTime":162.508,"body":"You have to abide by"},{"startTime":159.368,"endTime":162.508,"body":"what you're told, right?"},{"startTime":162.788,"endTime":166.508,"body":"And that I can see how that would"},{"startTime":162.788,"endTime":166.508,"body":"stifle innovation because you're,"},{"startTime":166.648,"endTime":168.368,"body":"you're really not doing anything new."},{"startTime":168.378,"endTime":171.568,"body":"You're simply going along with"},{"startTime":168.378,"endTime":171.568,"body":"what's been imposed upon you."},{"startTime":171.623,"endTime":174.503,"body":"But you know, I would take the other"},{"startTime":171.623,"endTime":174.503,"body":"side cause we are arguing as well."},{"startTime":174.843,"endTime":176.403,"body":"That's what I heard."},{"startTime":176.443,"endTime":176.803,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":176.803,"endTime":181.503,"body":"So, so you could say, look, the company"},{"startTime":176.803,"endTime":181.503,"body":"that is being acquired, if they fall in"},{"startTime":181.503,"endTime":187.793,"body":"line and work in the way that this larger"},{"startTime":181.503,"endTime":187.793,"body":"company is dictating perhaps, right?"},{"startTime":187.943,"endTime":189.163,"body":"Then what's wrong with that?"},{"startTime":189.378,"endTime":189.608,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":189.628,"endTime":193.148,"body":"What's wrong with, what's wrong"},{"startTime":189.628,"endTime":193.148,"body":"with a proven way of working?"},{"startTime":193.208,"endTime":195.148,"body":"Presumably the larger company survived."},{"startTime":195.428,"endTime":196.508,"body":"And they are the acquirer."},{"startTime":197.618,"endTime":199.088,"body":"So they're going to say, do it this way."},{"startTime":199.408,"endTime":200.098,"body":"And we're right."},{"startTime":200.168,"endTime":201.548,"body":"Well, let's, let's walk through this."},{"startTime":201.578,"endTime":201.978,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":202.068,"endTime":204.538,"body":"Let's walk through this theoretical"},{"startTime":202.068,"endTime":204.538,"body":"conversation for a second."},{"startTime":204.688,"endTime":208.638,"body":"And, and also like, it doesn't have"},{"startTime":204.688,"endTime":208.638,"body":"to be an acquirer acquiree deal."},{"startTime":208.798,"endTime":210.098,"body":"It also, like I've seen this."},{"startTime":210.203,"endTime":212.403,"body":"After IPOs, sure."},{"startTime":212.423,"endTime":215.603,"body":"For example , the company will"},{"startTime":212.423,"endTime":215.603,"body":"bring in professional management"},{"startTime":215.913,"endTime":219.053,"body":"and the professional managers will"},{"startTime":215.913,"endTime":219.053,"body":"say, Oh, we need some standards."},{"startTime":219.063,"endTime":220.923,"body":"So we need some standardization."},{"startTime":221.023,"endTime":225.393,"body":"Well I also, I've seen it when like"},{"startTime":221.023,"endTime":225.393,"body":"VP level, like C level executive"},{"startTime":225.453,"endTime":227.543,"body":"type of people change the operations."},{"startTime":227.693,"endTime":230.913,"body":"COO would be a good example like"},{"startTime":227.693,"endTime":230.913,"body":"COO changes and now like, well,"},{"startTime":230.923,"endTime":234.083,"body":"I need to know everything is"},{"startTime":230.923,"endTime":234.083,"body":"happening because I'm I'm operations."},{"startTime":234.093,"endTime":236.843,"body":"So I need to have my fingers in all"},{"startTime":234.093,"endTime":236.843,"body":"the pies because operations, he's to"},{"startTime":236.853,"endTime":242.233,"body":"know everything or a new CFO comes"},{"startTime":236.853,"endTime":242.233,"body":"in and says I don't understand where."},{"startTime":242.408,"endTime":246.048,"body":"All of the money is coming from, so I"},{"startTime":242.408,"endTime":246.048,"body":"need to standardize all the financing."},{"startTime":246.338,"endTime":248.648,"body":"Or where it's going, yeah, absolutely,"},{"startTime":246.338,"endTime":248.648,"body":"absolutely where it's going, yeah."},{"startTime":248.978,"endTime":251.578,"body":"I don't understand why some teams"},{"startTime":248.978,"endTime":251.578,"body":"are small and some teams are big, but"},{"startTime":251.578,"endTime":254.158,"body":"on paper it seems like they're all"},{"startTime":251.578,"endTime":254.158,"body":"bringing in the same amount of money."},{"startTime":254.438,"endTime":257.168,"body":"You know, we gotta, why don't all"},{"startTime":254.438,"endTime":257.168,"body":"the software development teams have 4"},{"startTime":257.168,"endTime":259.048,"body":"people instead of 8 people or 12 people?"},{"startTime":259.318,"endTime":260.778,"body":"Like, why are they all different numbers?"},{"startTime":260.778,"endTime":263.138,"body":"I don't understand, this doesn't"},{"startTime":260.778,"endTime":263.138,"body":"make sense financially to me."},{"startTime":263.398,"endTime":265.883,"body":"So, so they're saying like That"},{"startTime":263.398,"endTime":265.883,"body":"something doesn't make sense."},{"startTime":265.893,"endTime":269.323,"body":"So from that perspective, it's"},{"startTime":265.893,"endTime":269.323,"body":"not an acquirer or query position."},{"startTime":269.323,"endTime":272.613,"body":"It's just that something changed in the,"},{"startTime":269.323,"endTime":272.613,"body":"in the, in the management of the company."},{"startTime":272.763,"endTime":273.583,"body":"That's a better way to say it."},{"startTime":273.733,"endTime":275.973,"body":"It's a less challenging way"},{"startTime":273.733,"endTime":275.973,"body":"to say something changed in"},{"startTime":275.983,"endTime":277.263,"body":"the management of the company."},{"startTime":277.413,"endTime":280.813,"body":"And someone's just trying"},{"startTime":277.413,"endTime":280.813,"body":"to understand things."},{"startTime":280.863,"endTime":284.133,"body":"Well, you bring up a good point"},{"startTime":280.863,"endTime":284.133,"body":"with finance because they will be"},{"startTime":284.133,"endTime":287.993,"body":"looking for standardization from"},{"startTime":284.133,"endTime":287.993,"body":"the perspective of saving money."},{"startTime":288.223,"endTime":291.463,"body":"So they might look at it and say"},{"startTime":288.223,"endTime":291.463,"body":"you have five teams using this tool"},{"startTime":291.463,"endTime":294.823,"body":"and you have three teams using this"},{"startTime":291.463,"endTime":294.823,"body":"other tool and why don't we just have"},{"startTime":294.823,"endTime":298.063,"body":"one tool and then we can negotiate a"},{"startTime":294.823,"endTime":298.063,"body":"better contract with the vendor, right?"},{"startTime":298.213,"endTime":300.663,"body":"From an accounting"},{"startTime":298.213,"endTime":300.663,"body":"perspective, they're not wrong."},{"startTime":300.813,"endTime":304.603,"body":"But what they don't realize is You know,"},{"startTime":300.813,"endTime":304.603,"body":"these teams have evolved to the point"},{"startTime":304.603,"endTime":306.913,"body":"where they've chosen the tools they need."},{"startTime":307.063,"endTime":310.483,"body":"So if you're going to mandate"},{"startTime":307.063,"endTime":310.483,"body":"something on them, what are"},{"startTime":310.483,"endTime":312.353,"body":"you actually giving up, right?"},{"startTime":312.643,"endTime":315.103,"body":"And that comes back to"},{"startTime":312.643,"endTime":315.103,"body":"the innovation piece."},{"startTime":315.253,"endTime":319.933,"body":"The teams that are forced to use"},{"startTime":315.253,"endTime":319.933,"body":"a different tool for the sake"},{"startTime":319.933,"endTime":322.813,"body":"of saving money, they may not be"},{"startTime":319.933,"endTime":322.813,"body":"happy because that tool doesn't"},{"startTime":322.813,"endTime":323.753,"body":"do everything they want it to do."},{"startTime":323.903,"endTime":325.223,"body":"So they're going to go along begrudgingly."},{"startTime":325.373,"endTime":328.603,"body":"Right, and you'll have impact on"},{"startTime":325.373,"endTime":328.603,"body":"motivation and all of that good stuff"},{"startTime":328.603,"endTime":332.213,"body":"that happens when you tell somebody"},{"startTime":328.603,"endTime":332.213,"body":"how to do their job, basically."},{"startTime":332.263,"endTime":335.543,"body":"Well, well you're steering us to"},{"startTime":332.263,"endTime":335.543,"body":"talk about a topic here that is super"},{"startTime":335.543,"endTime":339.483,"body":"important to me in product management,"},{"startTime":335.543,"endTime":339.483,"body":"which is, hey, we've like, to go back"},{"startTime":339.483,"endTime":342.143,"body":"to the acquirer acquiree conversation."},{"startTime":342.293,"endTime":346.013,"body":"We've acquired this company over"},{"startTime":342.293,"endTime":346.013,"body":"here that is very successful, and"},{"startTime":346.013,"endTime":348.963,"body":"we want their customers, or their"},{"startTime":346.013,"endTime":348.963,"body":"line of business, or we want to"},{"startTime":348.963,"endTime":350.093,"body":"break into this market or whatever."},{"startTime":350.093,"endTime":351.913,"body":"There's usually a reason"},{"startTime":350.093,"endTime":351.913,"body":"to acquire a company."},{"startTime":352.063,"endTime":355.863,"body":"And let's say, for example, like"},{"startTime":352.063,"endTime":355.863,"body":"Brian \u0026 Om's development software"},{"startTime":355.863,"endTime":360.103,"body":"company has acquired a Brian's"},{"startTime":355.863,"endTime":360.103,"body":"side business company, right?"},{"startTime":360.253,"endTime":364.943,"body":"Brian Ohm's software development"},{"startTime":360.253,"endTime":364.943,"body":"company uses AWS for everything, Brian's"},{"startTime":365.093,"endTime":368.093,"body":"software side company is Azure cloud."},{"startTime":368.243,"endTime":372.063,"body":"So now that we bought the company,"},{"startTime":368.243,"endTime":372.063,"body":"we said, okay, Brian, Brian wouldn't"},{"startTime":372.063,"endTime":374.103,"body":"be there because Brian left the"},{"startTime":372.063,"endTime":374.103,"body":"company because Brian's not sticking"},{"startTime":374.103,"endTime":375.013,"body":"around through the acquisition"},{"startTime":375.063,"endTime":376.293,"body":"ha ha ha!"},{"startTime":376.293,"endTime":381.393,"body":"But, the people that left, the people that"},{"startTime":376.293,"endTime":381.393,"body":"stayed with Brian's side project company,"},{"startTime":381.723,"endTime":384.803,"body":"that are now part of Brian and Om's"},{"startTime":381.723,"endTime":384.803,"body":"software development company, who by the"},{"startTime":384.803,"endTime":388.173,"body":"way is not owned by Brian and Om anymore,"},{"startTime":384.803,"endTime":388.173,"body":"that all, that got bought years ago."},{"startTime":388.193,"endTime":390.683,"body":"Like, several podcasts ago,"},{"startTime":388.193,"endTime":390.683,"body":"that company got bought."},{"startTime":390.993,"endTime":392.163,"body":"Ha ha ha!"},{"startTime":392.243,"endTime":392.513,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":392.663,"endTime":396.473,"body":"Like Well, we can't have you on Azure"},{"startTime":392.663,"endTime":396.473,"body":"because now we're paying an hour."},{"startTime":396.473,"endTime":399.233,"body":"We're cutting a check every"},{"startTime":396.473,"endTime":399.233,"body":"month to AWS and we're cutting"},{"startTime":399.233,"endTime":400.443,"body":"the check every month to Azure."},{"startTime":400.593,"endTime":404.113,"body":"You guys need to just migrate all"},{"startTime":400.593,"endTime":404.113,"body":"your stuff from Azure over to AWS."},{"startTime":405.373,"endTime":412.513,"body":"Like, so the product manager now in play,"},{"startTime":405.373,"endTime":412.513,"body":"like looks up and says, I had to do what?"},{"startTime":412.663,"endTime":416.373,"body":"Like so basically you just gave"},{"startTime":412.663,"endTime":416.373,"body":"me a mandate to standardize for"},{"startTime":416.373,"endTime":417.833,"body":"the sake of standardization."},{"startTime":418.093,"endTime":423.103,"body":"Because product wise, it's gonna be"},{"startTime":418.093,"endTime":423.103,"body":"months of work to do that migration"},{"startTime":423.253,"endTime":428.273,"body":"and at the end of the migration,"},{"startTime":423.253,"endTime":428.273,"body":"what is, what benefit, what financial"},{"startTime":428.283,"endTime":429.973,"body":"benefit will my product gain?"},{"startTime":430.063,"endTime":430.483,"body":"Nothing."},{"startTime":430.633,"endTime":430.963,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":431.293,"endTime":431.783,"body":"Nothing."},{"startTime":431.933,"endTime":435.373,"body":"So, as a product manager, in"},{"startTime":431.933,"endTime":435.373,"body":"that position, immediately."},{"startTime":435.523,"endTime":439.453,"body":"I feel like I'm going to get marked as"},{"startTime":435.523,"endTime":439.453,"body":"the bad guy in this conversation because"},{"startTime":439.603,"endTime":445.333,"body":"I'm going to say what business sense"},{"startTime":439.603,"endTime":445.333,"body":"does it make to migrate us off of Azure"},{"startTime":445.393,"endTime":450.433,"body":"cloud just so we don't have this line"},{"startTime":445.393,"endTime":450.433,"body":"item expense of our service on Azure"},{"startTime":450.433,"endTime":453.968,"body":"cloud because you realize whatever"},{"startTime":450.433,"endTime":453.968,"body":"money you save from not having a second"},{"startTime":453.968,"endTime":458.943,"body":"bill paying the Azure subscription,"},{"startTime":453.968,"endTime":458.943,"body":"you're going to double your AWS bill."},{"startTime":459.093,"endTime":462.163,"body":"Because we're just going to move"},{"startTime":459.093,"endTime":462.163,"body":"over and use bandwidth on AWS."},{"startTime":462.163,"endTime":463.233,"body":"So you're going to pay those costs."},{"startTime":463.473,"endTime":467.923,"body":"So, so really the only thing you're saying"},{"startTime":463.473,"endTime":467.923,"body":"is my, my accountant that pays the bills"},{"startTime":468.043,"endTime":470.373,"body":"at the end of the year has an easier time."},{"startTime":470.383,"endTime":473.403,"body":"So, so basically you've, you've gone"},{"startTime":470.383,"endTime":473.403,"body":"through this whole standardization effort"},{"startTime":473.553,"endTime":476.293,"body":"so that some back office accountant."},{"startTime":476.443,"endTime":480.563,"body":"Has an easier time once a year, you"},{"startTime":476.443,"endTime":480.563,"body":"only have to pay one bill to pay a bill."},{"startTime":480.713,"endTime":481.263,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":481.313,"endTime":482.153,"body":"I absolutely agree."},{"startTime":482.153,"endTime":485.553,"body":"But I also think that there's"},{"startTime":482.153,"endTime":485.553,"body":"this from a product lens, right?"},{"startTime":485.853,"endTime":486.843,"body":"If you have to do this."},{"startTime":486.873,"endTime":489.883,"body":"Yes It's a it's a decent size"},{"startTime":486.873,"endTime":489.883,"body":"effort to say the least what"},{"startTime":489.883,"endTime":491.233,"body":"could you be doing instead?"},{"startTime":491.383,"endTime":492.583,"body":"Right for your product."},{"startTime":492.733,"endTime":495.423,"body":"So I mean it's chalk"},{"startTime":492.733,"endTime":495.423,"body":"and cheese to me, right?"},{"startTime":495.573,"endTime":496.633,"body":"Bringing in a lot of money."},{"startTime":496.633,"endTime":496.837,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":496.837,"endTime":497.523,"body":"That's what I could be doing."},{"startTime":497.533,"endTime":498.893,"body":"Evolving the product, exactly."},{"startTime":498.923,"endTime":501.183,"body":"Or taking a vacation for a"},{"startTime":498.923,"endTime":501.183,"body":"month and not working at all."},{"startTime":501.223,"endTime":503.783,"body":"That's worth a lot more than"},{"startTime":501.223,"endTime":503.783,"body":"consolidating cloud platforms."},{"startTime":503.803,"endTime":504.683,"body":"I mean, to me it is."},{"startTime":504.863,"endTime":507.423,"body":"I mean literally twiddling"},{"startTime":504.863,"endTime":507.423,"body":"my thumbs at my desk."},{"startTime":507.423,"endTime":511.673,"body":"Like, there's a million things I could be"},{"startTime":507.423,"endTime":511.673,"body":"doing that will be better for my team than"},{"startTime":511.823,"endTime":516.373,"body":"going through a big technology underhood"},{"startTime":511.823,"endTime":516.373,"body":"change that gives no value to the end"},{"startTime":516.373,"endTime":519.843,"body":"user, helps nobody in the company except"},{"startTime":516.373,"endTime":519.843,"body":"for one accountant in the back office."},{"startTime":519.993,"endTime":525.143,"body":"Well, as a product person who's forced"},{"startTime":519.993,"endTime":525.143,"body":"to do this work to consolidate CSPs, you"},{"startTime":525.293,"endTime":526.973,"body":"really need to keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":527.123,"endTime":528.013,"body":"Because you're gonna get bored."},{"startTime":528.163,"endTime":532.833,"body":"I mean, at that point like, if you're"},{"startTime":528.163,"endTime":532.833,"body":"a good product manager, or even if"},{"startTime":532.833,"endTime":535.753,"body":"you're a Scrum Master on your team"},{"startTime":532.833,"endTime":535.753,"body":"Helping product you're gonna be asking"},{"startTime":535.753,"endTime":538.333,"body":"these whys you're gonna be digging"},{"startTime":535.753,"endTime":538.333,"body":"you're gonna be doing five whys what?"},{"startTime":538.343,"endTime":539.353,"body":"Why do we need to?"},{"startTime":539.503,"endTime":545.023,"body":"migrate off of Azure to AWS You know and"},{"startTime":539.503,"endTime":545.023,"body":"and if you're not giving me a list of"},{"startTime":545.023,"endTime":548.633,"body":"like well These are the things that are"},{"startTime":545.023,"endTime":548.633,"body":"available to you on AWS or for example"},{"startTime":548.783,"endTime":551.933,"body":"Well, there's some stuff that we have"},{"startTime":548.783,"endTime":551.933,"body":"available in our AWS cloud on the back"},{"startTime":551.933,"endTime":556.013,"body":"end that you guys are paying extra for"},{"startTime":551.933,"endTime":556.013,"body":"that We'll drop off of our expense list."},{"startTime":556.213,"endTime":560.168,"body":"So really Like our monthly expenses that"},{"startTime":556.213,"endTime":560.168,"body":"you pay extra for, cause you have all"},{"startTime":560.168,"endTime":563.398,"body":"these plugins or all these custom features"},{"startTime":560.168,"endTime":563.398,"body":"or whatever that you've built, you don't"},{"startTime":563.398,"endTime":565.038,"body":"need to deal with that code base anymore."},{"startTime":565.308,"endTime":569.598,"body":"So like if there are real gains Oh,"},{"startTime":565.308,"endTime":569.598,"body":"your, your logs won't be jammed with"},{"startTime":569.748,"endTime":572.698,"body":"all this garbage, all this custom"},{"startTime":569.748,"endTime":572.698,"body":"stuff, because you can use our all"},{"startTime":572.698,"endTime":575.938,"body":"of our modules that, that come with"},{"startTime":572.698,"endTime":575.938,"body":"AWS, it's a ton of functionality that"},{"startTime":575.938,"endTime":576.788,"body":"comes with it, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":576.908,"endTime":580.118,"body":"But let's pretend you're going the"},{"startTime":576.908,"endTime":580.118,"body":"opposite direction and Azure cloud"},{"startTime":580.138,"endTime":585.348,"body":"doesn't have like sweet queuing systems"},{"startTime":580.138,"endTime":585.348,"body":"or databases or  auto rollout of"},{"startTime":585.348,"endTime":586.778,"body":"environments and stuff like that for you."},{"startTime":586.778,"endTime":588.038,"body":"Like they don't do that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":588.188,"endTime":590.628,"body":"And now you're going to have"},{"startTime":588.188,"endTime":590.628,"body":"to inherit all that business."},{"startTime":590.628,"endTime":591.758,"body":"Like this is terrible."},{"startTime":592.088,"endTime":593.798,"body":"This is an absolute debacle."},{"startTime":593.948,"endTime":596.408,"body":"this can put a company out of"},{"startTime":593.948,"endTime":596.408,"body":"business potentially if it's on"},{"startTime":596.408,"endTime":597.768,"body":"a large enough scale, honestly."},{"startTime":597.798,"endTime":600.498,"body":"But to bring us back to the point"},{"startTime":597.798,"endTime":600.498,"body":"and also to wrap up this category"},{"startTime":600.498,"endTime":604.378,"body":"is your team has innovated to figure"},{"startTime":600.498,"endTime":604.378,"body":"out how to deliver a solution."},{"startTime":604.528,"endTime":607.948,"body":"And now you're saying I understand"},{"startTime":604.528,"endTime":607.948,"body":"that you have maneuvered and"},{"startTime":607.948,"endTime":609.888,"body":"researched to find the solution."},{"startTime":610.038,"endTime":611.728,"body":"You don't get to discover anymore."},{"startTime":611.728,"endTime":613.018,"body":"You don't get to look for the best thing."},{"startTime":613.028,"endTime":614.338,"body":"We're just going to tell you what to use."},{"startTime":614.548,"endTime":617.458,"body":"We had we had, we did a whole podcast"},{"startTime":614.548,"endTime":617.458,"body":"on different people in the company"},{"startTime":617.458,"endTime":618.818,"body":"saying, I know what the customer needs."},{"startTime":618.818,"endTime":619.238,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":619.308,"endTime":619.438,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":619.478,"endTime":619.728,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":619.858,"endTime":621.718,"body":"An ego can't be thrown up."},{"startTime":621.728,"endTime":625.228,"body":"Like, you can't raise the shields"},{"startTime":621.728,"endTime":625.228,"body":"when you hear, how do you know?"},{"startTime":625.308,"endTime":628.728,"body":"You know, we can't see that as an"},{"startTime":625.308,"endTime":628.728,"body":"existential challenge to your identity."},{"startTime":628.878,"endTime":632.528,"body":"You've got to roll out the evidence and"},{"startTime":628.878,"endTime":632.528,"body":"say, well, this team has done a very"},{"startTime":632.528,"endTime":636.178,"body":"similar thing to what you're doing and"},{"startTime":632.528,"endTime":636.178,"body":"this team you know, went down your path"},{"startTime":636.178,"endTime":639.808,"body":"and found these limitations and that's"},{"startTime":636.178,"endTime":639.808,"body":"why as a company, we all decided if you're"},{"startTime":639.808,"endTime":643.568,"body":"going to do an email solution, for example"},{"startTime":639.808,"endTime":643.568,"body":"we decided that this is the most secure"},{"startTime":643.568,"endTime":644.958,"body":"method and this is the way to do it."},{"startTime":644.958,"endTime":647.978,"body":"And we have tech leads can walk you"},{"startTime":644.958,"endTime":647.978,"body":"through it and documentation and whatnot."},{"startTime":648.238,"endTime":650.698,"body":"Like if you're going to standardize,"},{"startTime":648.238,"endTime":650.698,"body":"like there's a way to do it."},{"startTime":650.848,"endTime":652.778,"body":"But those conversations"},{"startTime":650.848,"endTime":652.778,"body":"have to happen though."},{"startTime":652.778,"endTime":655.678,"body":"So oftentimes it's just an"},{"startTime":652.778,"endTime":655.678,"body":"order or an edict, right?"},{"startTime":655.758,"endTime":657.208,"body":"The CFO says we have to do this."},{"startTime":657.218,"endTime":658.008,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":658.028,"endTime":660.898,"body":"And then you go along begrudgingly with"},{"startTime":658.028,"endTime":660.898,"body":"it because you don't get that opportunity."},{"startTime":660.908,"endTime":662.368,"body":"You don't get the airtime with the CFO."},{"startTime":662.368,"endTime":662.978,"body":"A dictate."},{"startTime":663.048,"endTime":664.218,"body":"Usually it's a Exactly."},{"startTime":664.368,"endTime":669.298,"body":"It's a dictate that comes down and says"},{"startTime":664.368,"endTime":669.298,"body":"You must do whatever and the issue with"},{"startTime":669.298,"endTime":675.558,"body":"that, the issue with that, it leads"},{"startTime":669.298,"endTime":675.558,"body":"us to becoming a monoculture person or"},{"startTime":675.628,"endTime":682.058,"body":"individual or individuals or panel or"},{"startTime":675.628,"endTime":682.058,"body":"body or governance board or whatever"},{"startTime":682.068,"endTime":685.678,"body":"other things I've seen is disguised"},{"startTime":682.068,"endTime":685.678,"body":"as over the whole career that I've had"},{"startTime":685.828,"endTime":691.778,"body":"it, it leads you to say, These are the"},{"startTime":685.828,"endTime":691.778,"body":"approved ways of thinking and deviating"},{"startTime":691.778,"endTime":696.398,"body":"from these approved ways of thinking"},{"startTime":691.778,"endTime":696.398,"body":"is like not, not, yeah, not approved,"},{"startTime":696.408,"endTime":701.478,"body":"not invited, and not, not, not welcome"},{"startTime":696.408,"endTime":701.478,"body":"so the problem with this is it leads to"},{"startTime":701.488,"endTime":703.608,"body":"like rather than a diversity of thought."},{"startTime":703.758,"endTime":706.078,"body":"With all the different people that"},{"startTime":703.758,"endTime":706.078,"body":"are on our teams and all the different"},{"startTime":706.088,"endTime":710.408,"body":"cultures that are on our teams, it leads"},{"startTime":706.088,"endTime":710.408,"body":"to blinders in one way of thinking."},{"startTime":710.558,"endTime":711.828,"body":"And that's a big problem."},{"startTime":712.158,"endTime":713.508,"body":"It is a huge problem."},{"startTime":713.518,"endTime":716.538,"body":"You mentioned, you mentioned"},{"startTime":713.518,"endTime":716.538,"body":"the word monoculture."},{"startTime":716.588,"endTime":716.918,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":716.918,"endTime":717.618,"body":"Or words."},{"startTime":717.898,"endTime":718.798,"body":"That's a real thing."},{"startTime":718.928,"endTime":722.688,"body":"That's a real thing because people start"},{"startTime":718.928,"endTime":722.688,"body":"falling in line and, and echoing the same"},{"startTime":722.688,"endTime":726.168,"body":"thing that everyone else is saying because"},{"startTime":722.688,"endTime":726.168,"body":"you dare not utter anything different."},{"startTime":726.468,"endTime":730.578,"body":"So, we end up with The culture"},{"startTime":726.468,"endTime":730.578,"body":"and the organization becoming"},{"startTime":730.728,"endTime":732.138,"body":"almost like monolithic."},{"startTime":732.158,"endTime":733.548,"body":"It's uncontrolled groupthink."},{"startTime":733.598,"endTime":734.288,"body":"It is groupthink."},{"startTime":734.328,"endTime":736.138,"body":"And people say, well, that's"},{"startTime":734.328,"endTime":736.138,"body":"how we do things here."},{"startTime":736.288,"endTime":739.338,"body":"Let me think about how, how I would"},{"startTime":736.288,"endTime":739.338,"body":"challenge groupthink for a second."},{"startTime":739.488,"endTime":742.428,"body":"Like even, even the example, like I hate"},{"startTime":739.488,"endTime":742.428,"body":"to keep going back to the exact same"},{"startTime":742.428,"endTime":745.828,"body":"example of like what makes you think that"},{"startTime":742.428,"endTime":745.828,"body":"this this is a solution that we need."},{"startTime":746.108,"endTime":747.878,"body":"You know, why don't we explore"},{"startTime":746.108,"endTime":747.878,"body":"the problem a little more."},{"startTime":748.138,"endTime":753.238,"body":"Diversity of thought starts in the"},{"startTime":748.138,"endTime":753.238,"body":"understanding the problem realm."},{"startTime":753.388,"endTime":757.348,"body":"A lot of companies like that understanding"},{"startTime":753.388,"endTime":757.348,"body":"the problem phase, like they, they"},{"startTime":757.368,"endTime":760.908,"body":"seek to hotwire that understanding"},{"startTime":757.368,"endTime":760.908,"body":"the problem phase and cut straight"},{"startTime":760.908,"endTime":763.028,"body":"to like proposing solutions phase."},{"startTime":763.178,"endTime":766.668,"body":"And then the proposing solution"},{"startTime":763.178,"endTime":766.668,"body":"phase, it's super easy to co op"},{"startTime":766.688,"endTime":770.618,"body":"that proposing solution phase to say"},{"startTime":766.688,"endTime":770.618,"body":"like, Well, solutions can only be"},{"startTime":770.618,"endTime":772.828,"body":"proposed between the hours of 3 p."},{"startTime":772.828,"endTime":773.038,"body":"m."},{"startTime":773.038,"endTime":773.898,"body":"and 3."},{"startTime":773.898,"endTime":774.128,"body":"15 p."},{"startTime":774.128,"endTime":774.378,"body":"m."},{"startTime":774.378,"endTime":777.858,"body":"on a Tuesday in front of"},{"startTime":774.378,"endTime":777.858,"body":"the angry review board."},{"startTime":778.008,"endTime":781.958,"body":"Or whatever, and you must stand on"},{"startTime":778.008,"endTime":781.958,"body":"a pedestal, where we can pillory"},{"startTime":781.958,"endTime":783.548,"body":"you with fruit, or whatever."},{"startTime":783.738,"endTime":786.638,"body":"Like it sounds funny, , companies"},{"startTime":783.738,"endTime":786.638,"body":"have review boards like this, and"},{"startTime":786.648,"endTime":789.928,"body":"steering committees that you, in order"},{"startTime":786.648,"endTime":789.928,"body":"to approve things and have budget be,"},{"startTime":789.938,"endTime":793.898,"body":"you know budget be reserved for new"},{"startTime":789.938,"endTime":793.898,"body":"initiatives and whatnot, new ideas."},{"startTime":794.048,"endTime":794.578,"body":"Basically."},{"startTime":794.668,"endTime":794.898,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":795.008,"endTime":796.808,"body":"You have to go through"},{"startTime":795.008,"endTime":796.808,"body":"a big process like this."},{"startTime":796.808,"endTime":800.348,"body":"You have to go to a panel and state"},{"startTime":796.808,"endTime":800.348,"body":"your case and fill out a big form"},{"startTime":800.348,"endTime":801.158,"body":"yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":801.198,"endTime":802.188,"body":"Groupthink is real."},{"startTime":802.248,"endTime":806.828,"body":"And standardization has a real risk of"},{"startTime":802.248,"endTime":806.828,"body":"precipitating the culture into groupthink."},{"startTime":806.878,"endTime":812.198,"body":"This groupthink topic is super aggravating"},{"startTime":806.878,"endTime":812.198,"body":"to me because it sort of takes on a life"},{"startTime":812.198,"endTime":817.088,"body":"of its own What you end up with is you end"},{"startTime":812.198,"endTime":817.088,"body":"up with a layer of bureaucracy that forms"},{"startTime":817.238,"endTime":819.488,"body":"just to keep the status quo in place."},{"startTime":819.638,"endTime":822.218,"body":"It creates process to keep itself alive."},{"startTime":822.368,"endTime":826.798,"body":"Like I think of everywhere I've ever been,"},{"startTime":822.368,"endTime":826.798,"body":"they had like, Governance Board, they love"},{"startTime":826.798,"endTime":827.928,"body":"the term governance, I don't know why."},{"startTime":828.128,"endTime":830.268,"body":"That Governance Board or Architect."},{"startTime":830.418,"endTime":833.678,"body":"Review stage or that kind of thing."},{"startTime":833.848,"endTime":839.518,"body":"It creates a layer of bureaucracy"},{"startTime":833.848,"endTime":839.518,"body":"in the organization that purely"},{"startTime":839.518,"endTime":842.838,"body":"exists to justify its place."},{"startTime":843.118,"endTime":846.588,"body":"It's in the bureaucracy of the"},{"startTime":843.118,"endTime":846.588,"body":"organization that sounds super confusing,"},{"startTime":846.588,"endTime":850.248,"body":"but the type of architect that sits on"},{"startTime":846.588,"endTime":850.248,"body":"high and comes down from the mountain"},{"startTime":850.258,"endTime":853.778,"body":"with the tablet written in stone of"},{"startTime":850.258,"endTime":853.778,"body":"the requirements and like you must do"},{"startTime":853.778,"endTime":857.808,"body":"this and you may not deviate from these"},{"startTime":853.778,"endTime":857.808,"body":"things This type of thing, I think of."},{"startTime":857.958,"endTime":859.358,"body":"Yeah, we've seen that, right?"},{"startTime":859.358,"endTime":862.078,"body":"We've seen that in our lives"},{"startTime":859.358,"endTime":862.078,"body":"in our previous lives, right?"},{"startTime":862.398,"endTime":863.418,"body":"Where these things happen."},{"startTime":863.448,"endTime":867.358,"body":"And, yeah, to your point, I mean,"},{"startTime":863.448,"endTime":867.358,"body":"oftentimes people who are innovators,"},{"startTime":867.638,"endTime":869.558,"body":"they know that this is an uphill battle."},{"startTime":869.638,"endTime":871.728,"body":"They're going to have to go"},{"startTime":869.638,"endTime":871.728,"body":"to these boards and defend it."},{"startTime":871.878,"endTime":873.088,"body":"Proposals and whatnot."},{"startTime":873.238,"endTime":878.018,"body":"So they tend to basically fall in line"},{"startTime":873.238,"endTime":878.018,"body":"with the standardization that's there."},{"startTime":878.358,"endTime":882.028,"body":"And don't go outside of that because"},{"startTime":878.358,"endTime":882.028,"body":"their chances of success are limited."},{"startTime":882.028,"endTime":885.358,"body":"If they even come to the periphery"},{"startTime":882.028,"endTime":885.358,"body":"of it, stay with the guardrails."},{"startTime":885.398,"endTime":887.988,"body":"We stay right between those, the lane."},{"startTime":887.988,"endTime":888.248,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":888.598,"endTime":891.628,"body":"And that's not really"},{"startTime":888.598,"endTime":891.628,"body":"fostering anything new."},{"startTime":891.718,"endTime":895.128,"body":"What you just described is like,"},{"startTime":891.718,"endTime":895.128,"body":"well, now the people that succeed in"},{"startTime":895.128,"endTime":897.298,"body":"this culture now are the people that."},{"startTime":897.428,"endTime":898.938,"body":"Won't challenge the status quo."},{"startTime":898.978,"endTime":899.408,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":899.488,"endTime":903.388,"body":"The people that won't like when they"},{"startTime":899.488,"endTime":903.388,"body":"see something that obviously is wrong,"},{"startTime":903.538,"endTime":907.208,"body":"they're not going to be the ones that"},{"startTime":903.538,"endTime":907.208,"body":"raise their head up and get smacked"},{"startTime":907.298,"endTime":909.578,"body":"you raise your head up"},{"startTime":907.298,"endTime":909.578,"body":"to say something's wrong."},{"startTime":909.728,"endTime":914.628,"body":"The thing will probably get corrected,"},{"startTime":909.728,"endTime":914.628,"body":"but you will get smacked for."},{"startTime":914.778,"endTime":918.268,"body":"Sticking your head out of the monoculture"},{"startTime":914.778,"endTime":918.268,"body":"to be like, Hey, I'm a little different."},{"startTime":918.368,"endTime":920.588,"body":"I don't think maybe that this is a smack."},{"startTime":920.808,"endTime":924.898,"body":"Like Google just got pinged with"},{"startTime":920.808,"endTime":924.898,"body":"this in the news about their Gemini"},{"startTime":924.948,"endTime":927.138,"body":"AI and images that they rolled."},{"startTime":927.138,"endTime":929.178,"body":"But I think they, I don't"},{"startTime":927.138,"endTime":929.178,"body":"know if they rolled back or"},{"startTime":929.178,"endTime":930.698,"body":"disabled their image generation."},{"startTime":930.708,"endTime":931.898,"body":"I don't remember what they did."},{"startTime":932.088,"endTime":933.268,"body":"Did you hear about this new story?"},{"startTime":933.288,"endTime":936.418,"body":"I remember hearing something about it,"},{"startTime":933.288,"endTime":936.418,"body":"but I don't know what the outcome was."},{"startTime":936.428,"endTime":940.688,"body":"There may or may not have been a big"},{"startTime":936.428,"endTime":940.688,"body":"segment of the podcast where we played"},{"startTime":940.688,"endTime":946.098,"body":"around with a certain  images tool"},{"startTime":940.688,"endTime":946.098,"body":"that was a lot of fun to play with"},{"startTime":946.098,"endTime":948.398,"body":"and gave us some questionable images."},{"startTime":948.548,"endTime":952.528,"body":"of historical figures that we"},{"startTime":948.548,"endTime":952.528,"body":"had a riot looking through."},{"startTime":952.738,"endTime":957.518,"body":"Anyway the, the point here is in the"},{"startTime":952.738,"endTime":957.518,"body":"bureaucracy, there is this layer of"},{"startTime":957.638,"endTime":963.038,"body":"people who are there to justify Their"},{"startTime":957.638,"endTime":963.038,"body":"own jobs because they participated and"},{"startTime":963.038,"endTime":967.998,"body":"perpetuated this layer of bureaucracy"},{"startTime":963.038,"endTime":967.998,"body":"and the challenge here, the arguing agile"},{"startTime":967.998,"endTime":972.648,"body":"challenge here is there are people out"},{"startTime":967.998,"endTime":972.648,"body":"there that will say that agile coaches"},{"startTime":972.648,"endTime":976.378,"body":"and scrum masters are part of the"},{"startTime":972.648,"endTime":976.378,"body":"bureaucracy I'm talking about right now,"},{"startTime":976.528,"endTime":977.688,"body":"especially internal ones."},{"startTime":977.878,"endTime":980.658,"body":"I tend to agree with that, but I"},{"startTime":977.878,"endTime":980.658,"body":"I just want to say those people"},{"startTime":980.658,"endTime":985.208,"body":"do exist to propagate their own"},{"startTime":980.658,"endTime":985.208,"body":"existence, but they also exist"},{"startTime":985.358,"endTime":990.158,"body":"To feed their immediate superiors"},{"startTime":985.358,"endTime":990.158,"body":"what they've been used to, right?"},{"startTime":990.488,"endTime":992.908,"body":"This is what the C suite wants."},{"startTime":993.258,"endTime":998.358,"body":"So your managing directors or directors,"},{"startTime":993.258,"endTime":998.358,"body":"everywhere below the C suite the middle"},{"startTime":998.358,"endTime":1002.168,"body":"managers, they're going to continue"},{"startTime":998.358,"endTime":1002.168,"body":"those practices because that's the"},{"startTime":1002.178,"endTime":1003.658,"body":"path of least resistance for them."},{"startTime":1003.778,"endTime":1008.738,"body":"But also I have personally seen"},{"startTime":1003.778,"endTime":1008.738,"body":"plenty of scrum masters that do not"},{"startTime":1008.738,"endTime":1010.068,"body":"want to challenge the status quo."},{"startTime":1010.218,"endTime":1013.788,"body":"They just know that coaching the"},{"startTime":1010.218,"endTime":1013.788,"body":"organizational level is, is futile."},{"startTime":1013.848,"endTime":1014.428,"body":"It's futile."},{"startTime":1014.668,"endTime":1018.378,"body":"So, so, and they also know, again,"},{"startTime":1014.668,"endTime":1018.378,"body":"going back to this monoculture point,"},{"startTime":1018.378,"endTime":1023.018,"body":"new ideas outside of the status"},{"startTime":1018.378,"endTime":1023.018,"body":"quo are just not, not accepted."},{"startTime":1023.168,"endTime":1027.668,"body":"You know, they're not appreciated, and you"},{"startTime":1023.168,"endTime":1027.668,"body":"start getting labeled as a , troublemaker."},{"startTime":1027.678,"endTime":1028.028,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1028.228,"endTime":1032.998,"body":"I only bring this up again because I've,"},{"startTime":1028.228,"endTime":1032.998,"body":"I've specifically observed Scrum Masters."},{"startTime":1033.148,"endTime":1036.168,"body":"I look at them and I"},{"startTime":1033.148,"endTime":1036.168,"body":"say, shouldn't you be?"},{"startTime":1036.318,"endTime":1041.108,"body":"the person with the advanced facilitation"},{"startTime":1036.318,"endTime":1041.108,"body":"skills the advanced interpersonal skills"},{"startTime":1041.408,"endTime":1045.998,"body":"to highlight hey don't you think this"},{"startTime":1041.408,"endTime":1045.998,"body":"culture is a problem but no they're"},{"startTime":1046.008,"endTime":1050.348,"body":"hiding in the culture because they're"},{"startTime":1046.008,"endTime":1050.348,"body":"afraid to challenge any of these issues so"},{"startTime":1050.348,"endTime":1052.598,"body":"they'd rather be kind of safe to go along"},{"startTime":1052.808,"endTime":1055.788,"body":"i would not bring it up and make it"},{"startTime":1052.808,"endTime":1055.788,"body":"such a big thing if i had not seen"},{"startTime":1055.788,"endTime":1060.418,"body":"it more than one time oh definitely"},{"startTime":1055.788,"endTime":1060.418,"body":"it exists it's real it's out there"},{"startTime":1060.708,"endTime":1063.538,"body":"Scrum Masters and Agile coaches,"},{"startTime":1060.708,"endTime":1063.538,"body":"especially internal Agile coaches."},{"startTime":1063.728,"endTime":1068.158,"body":"And even in that segment, it's people"},{"startTime":1063.728,"endTime":1068.158,"body":"that are coaching at the team level."},{"startTime":1068.308,"endTime":1072.078,"body":"Agile coaches that are primarily"},{"startTime":1068.308,"endTime":1072.078,"body":"focused at the team level are going"},{"startTime":1072.078,"endTime":1076.768,"body":"to just steer clear of anything that"},{"startTime":1072.078,"endTime":1076.768,"body":"is not in the guidelines, right?"},{"startTime":1077.038,"endTime":1080.328,"body":"The PMO usually hands them a folder"},{"startTime":1077.038,"endTime":1080.328,"body":"and says, this is how you do things."},{"startTime":1080.478,"endTime":1083.808,"body":"So they're the ones that go around"},{"startTime":1080.478,"endTime":1083.808,"body":"saying okay, look, it says so here."},{"startTime":1083.868,"endTime":1086.588,"body":"It's okay to have your daily stand"},{"startTime":1083.868,"endTime":1086.588,"body":"up to go an hour long, right?"},{"startTime":1086.638,"endTime":1087.618,"body":"That sort of thing, right?"},{"startTime":1087.718,"endTime":1092.278,"body":"But those agile coaches that are not"},{"startTime":1087.718,"endTime":1092.278,"body":"just at the team level, but they're"},{"startTime":1092.278,"endTime":1094.008,"body":"also really coaching the organization."},{"startTime":1094.018,"endTime":1095.788,"body":"They are the ones that I would look to."},{"startTime":1095.938,"endTime":1100.308,"body":"To bring this up to people and say,"},{"startTime":1095.938,"endTime":1100.308,"body":"we're stifling people here, right?"},{"startTime":1100.308,"endTime":1102.618,"body":"This, this is not serving anything, right?"},{"startTime":1102.698,"endTime":1104.488,"body":"Why are we continuing to do this?"},{"startTime":1104.538,"endTime":1106.738,"body":"And to be honest, it's still"},{"startTime":1104.538,"endTime":1106.738,"body":"going to be an uphill fight."},{"startTime":1106.888,"endTime":1109.408,"body":"There'll be labeled as the"},{"startTime":1106.888,"endTime":1109.408,"body":"troublemaker, as you said, right?"},{"startTime":1109.558,"endTime":1110.428,"body":"Not a team player."},{"startTime":1110.428,"endTime":1111.318,"body":"You're not a team player."},{"startTime":1111.468,"endTime":1111.908,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1111.928,"endTime":1113.218,"body":"Well, that's not why you brought me in."},{"startTime":1113.368,"endTime":1113.658,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1113.659,"endTime":1115.118,"body":"You brought me in to hold up a mirror."},{"startTime":1115.268,"endTime":1116.248,"body":"You can get rid of me."},{"startTime":1116.268,"endTime":1116.828,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1116.838,"endTime":1119.548,"body":"That's the easy thing to do, but your"},{"startTime":1116.838,"endTime":1119.548,"body":"problems aren't going to go away."},{"startTime":1119.698,"endTime":1123.938,"body":"To the agile coaches out there who"},{"startTime":1119.698,"endTime":1123.938,"body":"maybe have like, they've sort of"},{"startTime":1123.968,"endTime":1126.708,"body":"insulated themselves and they're"},{"startTime":1123.968,"endTime":1126.708,"body":"sort of like, well, I I know that"},{"startTime":1126.708,"endTime":1130.068,"body":"challenging the status quo is like"},{"startTime":1126.708,"endTime":1130.068,"body":"tough and I just don't know because it"},{"startTime":1130.068,"endTime":1133.268,"body":"was like a lot of people getting laid"},{"startTime":1130.068,"endTime":1133.268,"body":"off and I feel like there's security"},{"startTime":1133.268,"endTime":1134.708,"body":"and not challenging the status quo."},{"startTime":1134.759,"endTime":1138.709,"body":"What tool can you give them to"},{"startTime":1134.759,"endTime":1138.709,"body":"sort of like, to, to make progress"},{"startTime":1138.859,"endTime":1142.029,"body":"toward challenging the status"},{"startTime":1138.859,"endTime":1142.029,"body":"quo, but also not get fired?"},{"startTime":1142.179,"endTime":1144.089,"body":"So here's what I'm"},{"startTime":1142.179,"endTime":1144.089,"body":"going to say about that."},{"startTime":1144.319,"endTime":1146.059,"body":"If you're going to just drift along."},{"startTime":1146.259,"endTime":1148.979,"body":"If you're going to drift along you're"},{"startTime":1146.259,"endTime":1148.979,"body":"getting closer and closer to that door."},{"startTime":1149.029,"endTime":1149.389,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1149.539,"endTime":1153.579,"body":"So I would say, pick one fight"},{"startTime":1149.539,"endTime":1153.579,"body":"that you can win, go do it, right?"},{"startTime":1153.589,"endTime":1154.919,"body":"Be brave, go do it."},{"startTime":1155.159,"endTime":1156.499,"body":"And don't ask permission."},{"startTime":1156.509,"endTime":1157.579,"body":"That's not gonna work too well."},{"startTime":1157.779,"endTime":1161.459,"body":"But then again, you're not radically"},{"startTime":1157.779,"endTime":1161.459,"body":"changing the core construct of"},{"startTime":1161.599,"endTime":1163.099,"body":"the organizational culture, right?"},{"startTime":1163.249,"endTime":1167.509,"body":"Pick one thing as a practice and say,"},{"startTime":1163.249,"endTime":1167.509,"body":"I don't see why this team should be"},{"startTime":1167.509,"endTime":1169.189,"body":"following that specific practice."},{"startTime":1169.419,"endTime":1174.699,"body":"Stay with you, with a team and"},{"startTime":1169.419,"endTime":1174.699,"body":"be driven by result, by data."},{"startTime":1174.904,"endTime":1175.054,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1175.114,"endTime":1176.384,"body":"And say, here's what we tried."},{"startTime":1176.444,"endTime":1177.434,"body":"Here's how well it worked."},{"startTime":1177.584,"endTime":1177.904,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1177.974,"endTime":1179.604,"body":"So we're going to do it again."},{"startTime":1179.754,"endTime":1183.144,"body":"And then slowly over time, you"},{"startTime":1179.754,"endTime":1183.144,"body":"can get other teams that you're"},{"startTime":1183.144,"endTime":1185.034,"body":"coaching to kind of do that as well."},{"startTime":1185.314,"endTime":1187.844,"body":"You don't have to necessarily"},{"startTime":1185.314,"endTime":1187.844,"body":"make a big deal out of it and"},{"startTime":1187.844,"endTime":1189.164,"body":"say, we're not doing this anymore."},{"startTime":1189.194,"endTime":1191.354,"body":"We're doing this"},{"startTime":1189.194,"endTime":1191.354,"body":"newfangled way of working."},{"startTime":1191.364,"endTime":1192.234,"body":"You don't have to do that."},{"startTime":1192.384,"endTime":1195.084,"body":"Just stay below the radar and do it."},{"startTime":1195.204,"endTime":1195.604,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1195.754,"endTime":1198.684,"body":"But what we used to call"},{"startTime":1195.754,"endTime":1198.684,"body":"gorilla coaching in the day."},{"startTime":1198.824,"endTime":1199.084,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1199.144,"endTime":1203.294,"body":"If you have this monoculture where"},{"startTime":1199.144,"endTime":1203.294,"body":"you can't challenge ideas, you can't"},{"startTime":1203.294,"endTime":1208.804,"body":"point out problems, and you, and you,"},{"startTime":1203.294,"endTime":1208.804,"body":"you, you're afraid of, cause that's,"},{"startTime":1208.944,"endTime":1212.494,"body":"that's a lot of what we're talking about"},{"startTime":1208.944,"endTime":1212.494,"body":"is you're afraid to speak up, right?"},{"startTime":1212.644,"endTime":1216.044,"body":"Then in that kind of culture, If you're"},{"startTime":1212.644,"endTime":1216.044,"body":"afraid to speak up and you're afraid"},{"startTime":1216.044,"endTime":1219.374,"body":"to point out things that are not in the"},{"startTime":1216.044,"endTime":1219.374,"body":"current pipeline, things that you're"},{"startTime":1219.374,"endTime":1223.964,"body":"not doing right now, I feel that your"},{"startTime":1219.374,"endTime":1223.964,"body":"whole organization will have difficulty"},{"startTime":1223.994,"endTime":1229.624,"body":"adapting to new technologies, or new"},{"startTime":1223.994,"endTime":1229.624,"body":"trends, or shifts in the market, or"},{"startTime":1229.624,"endTime":1233.814,"body":"shifts in your customer preferences,"},{"startTime":1229.624,"endTime":1233.814,"body":"and you're I feel like this whole thing"},{"startTime":1233.814,"endTime":1237.474,"body":"we're talking about now, where it's"},{"startTime":1233.814,"endTime":1237.474,"body":"like new ideas don't new ideas are not"},{"startTime":1237.494,"endTime":1239.944,"body":"accepted or appreciated in our culture."},{"startTime":1240.094,"endTime":1241.414,"body":"Well, that's fine."},{"startTime":1241.564,"endTime":1244.684,"body":"I mean, I guess it's fine from the"},{"startTime":1241.564,"endTime":1244.684,"body":"perspective of you're going to have"},{"startTime":1244.684,"endTime":1247.414,"body":"the people running the business and"},{"startTime":1244.684,"endTime":1247.414,"body":"the people you have working until"},{"startTime":1247.414,"endTime":1250.264,"body":"they leave and then maybe you'll"},{"startTime":1247.414,"endTime":1250.264,"body":"replace them, maybe you won't."},{"startTime":1250.384,"endTime":1253.944,"body":"Seems like it would be difficult to get"},{"startTime":1250.384,"endTime":1253.944,"body":"people into that culture, but over time,"},{"startTime":1254.204,"endTime":1257.964,"body":"you're going to lose market segment"},{"startTime":1254.204,"endTime":1257.964,"body":"because you just don't have a culture"},{"startTime":1258.274,"endTime":1262.804,"body":"who is willing to be responsive and"},{"startTime":1258.274,"endTime":1262.804,"body":"who's willing to learn from failures."},{"startTime":1263.004,"endTime":1266.434,"body":"And in fact, I would, I would even"},{"startTime":1263.004,"endTime":1266.434,"body":"go out, I would go so far as to say."},{"startTime":1266.584,"endTime":1271.544,"body":"Failure probably is a word that"},{"startTime":1266.584,"endTime":1271.544,"body":"is just not, not encouraged to be"},{"startTime":1271.544,"endTime":1273.084,"body":"spoken out loud in that culture."},{"startTime":1273.284,"endTime":1275.924,"body":"So that tells me you're"},{"startTime":1273.284,"endTime":1275.924,"body":"not learning from failure."},{"startTime":1276.084,"endTime":1278.534,"body":"So if you're not learning from"},{"startTime":1276.084,"endTime":1278.534,"body":"failure, and you're not learning"},{"startTime":1278.534,"endTime":1281.644,"body":"from your own personal initiative of"},{"startTime":1278.534,"endTime":1281.644,"body":"learning, for the sake of learning."},{"startTime":1281.794,"endTime":1286.554,"body":"I'm going to guess that the world, when"},{"startTime":1281.794,"endTime":1286.554,"body":"you look at the window in a couple days,"},{"startTime":1286.704,"endTime":1288.524,"body":"the world is going to have passed you by."},{"startTime":1288.694,"endTime":1289.134,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1289.444,"endTime":1290.214,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1290.214,"endTime":1293.374,"body":"I think you lose that,"},{"startTime":1290.214,"endTime":1293.374,"body":"that nimbleness, right?"},{"startTime":1293.464,"endTime":1293.654,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1293.714,"endTime":1296.794,"body":"You lose the nimbleness to, to"},{"startTime":1293.714,"endTime":1296.794,"body":"respond to the changes that are"},{"startTime":1296.794,"endTime":1300.054,"body":"out there because you're too mired"},{"startTime":1296.794,"endTime":1300.054,"body":"in your own internal processes."},{"startTime":1300.204,"endTime":1300.888,"body":"So."},{"startTime":1301.198,"endTime":1305.068,"body":"What can happen here is that"},{"startTime":1301.198,"endTime":1305.068,"body":"company is going to lose, perhaps"},{"startTime":1305.068,"endTime":1307.058,"body":"lose customers, lose market share."},{"startTime":1307.078,"endTime":1310.558,"body":"I don't know, but that's not going to"},{"startTime":1307.078,"endTime":1310.558,"body":"be appreciated by those people that"},{"startTime":1310.558,"endTime":1311.968,"body":"are just still in the line, you know?"},{"startTime":1312.168,"endTime":1312.328,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1312.478,"endTime":1313.468,"body":"We lost a customer."},{"startTime":1313.468,"endTime":1313.878,"body":"So what?"},{"startTime":1313.958,"endTime":1315.188,"body":"We're still doing the right thing."},{"startTime":1315.338,"endTime":1318.858,"body":"Cause they're just so ingrained in"},{"startTime":1315.338,"endTime":1318.858,"body":"their current culture, the monoculture."},{"startTime":1318.918,"endTime":1320.288,"body":"Well, they're still checking the boxes."},{"startTime":1320.428,"endTime":1320.958,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1320.958,"endTime":1321.108,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1321.138,"endTime":1321.448,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1321.488,"endTime":1323.728,"body":"They're checking the boxes and"},{"startTime":1321.488,"endTime":1323.728,"body":"that's not served them well."},{"startTime":1323.728,"endTime":1324.758,"body":"So why keep doing it?"},{"startTime":1325.078,"endTime":1329.588,"body":"The product management equivalent to me"},{"startTime":1325.078,"endTime":1329.588,"body":"is when I go through an interview and I"},{"startTime":1329.588,"endTime":1333.738,"body":"ask people, Hey, in your organization,"},{"startTime":1329.588,"endTime":1333.738,"body":"where do the ideas come from?"},{"startTime":1333.888,"endTime":1334.178,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1334.228,"endTime":1337.958,"body":"And they'll, a lot of people, that's,"},{"startTime":1334.228,"endTime":1337.958,"body":"that's a softball question, usually."},{"startTime":1337.998,"endTime":1338.328,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1338.658,"endTime":1338.928,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":1339.078,"endTime":1343.838,"body":"But depending on your responses I can"},{"startTime":1339.078,"endTime":1343.838,"body":"dig, tell me about the last time that"},{"startTime":1343.838,"endTime":1347.368,"body":"you picked the best signal and tell"},{"startTime":1343.838,"endTime":1347.368,"body":"me about the detractors and I want to"},{"startTime":1347.368,"endTime":1351.858,"body":"know about the fights, because you have"},{"startTime":1347.368,"endTime":1351.858,"body":"evidence, you have data, there's people"},{"startTime":1351.868,"endTime":1354.678,"body":"with their intuition, you know what I"},{"startTime":1351.868,"endTime":1354.678,"body":"mean, that say like, well, your evidence"},{"startTime":1354.678,"endTime":1356.608,"body":"is wrong, because I know the market."},{"startTime":1356.758,"endTime":1358.228,"body":"Like, tell me about that conversation."},{"startTime":1358.378,"endTime":1360.688,"body":"Like, I'm going to dig into"},{"startTime":1358.378,"endTime":1360.688,"body":"the real conversations."},{"startTime":1360.888,"endTime":1363.488,"body":"everything I just described is"},{"startTime":1360.888,"endTime":1363.488,"body":"not happening in this culture."},{"startTime":1363.489,"endTime":1364.278,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1364.278,"endTime":1366.215,"body":"You know, we're No."},{"startTime":1366.215,"endTime":1368.058,"body":"I'll tell you what is happening"},{"startTime":1366.215,"endTime":1368.058,"body":"in this culture, though."},{"startTime":1368.283,"endTime":1368.593,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1368.633,"endTime":1372.123,"body":"In this culture, what is happening"},{"startTime":1368.633,"endTime":1372.123,"body":"is yeah, fill out an intake form,"},{"startTime":1372.273,"endTime":1376.373,"body":"and then that's gonna get funneled"},{"startTime":1372.273,"endTime":1376.373,"body":"into the product backlog, right?"},{"startTime":1376.523,"endTime":1378.333,"body":"It's like there's no validation, right?"},{"startTime":1378.373,"endTime":1379.493,"body":"There's no verification."},{"startTime":1379.493,"endTime":1381.103,"body":"The customer actually asked for that."},{"startTime":1381.103,"endTime":1381.853,"body":"Oh, why?"},{"startTime":1382.003,"endTime":1382.523,"body":"Much less."},{"startTime":1382.523,"endTime":1383.033,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":1383.383,"endTime":1383.753,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1383.903,"endTime":1388.023,"body":"If you're just taking the customer's"},{"startTime":1383.903,"endTime":1388.023,"body":"word for things, for example, Verbatim."},{"startTime":1388.123,"endTime":1391.793,"body":"Yeah, that's this culture because"},{"startTime":1388.123,"endTime":1391.793,"body":"you don't want to necessarily be"},{"startTime":1391.803,"endTime":1393.533,"body":"the risky one asking customers."},{"startTime":1393.563,"endTime":1394.563,"body":"Why do they want something?"},{"startTime":1394.603,"endTime":1397.403,"body":"They just told you they want something"},{"startTime":1394.603,"endTime":1397.403,"body":"to go build it right that that's what"},{"startTime":1397.453,"endTime":1401.973,"body":"tends to happen in monocultures and"},{"startTime":1397.453,"endTime":1401.973,"body":"the end result Sooner or later is yeah,"},{"startTime":1401.973,"endTime":1405.233,"body":"you're gonna have disenchanted customers"},{"startTime":1401.973,"endTime":1405.233,"body":"and they're gonna lose you leave you."},{"startTime":1405.313,"endTime":1406.803,"body":"Yeah, you'll lose market share"},{"startTime":1406.953,"endTime":1410.573,"body":"Yeah, in the culture where you're towing"},{"startTime":1406.953,"endTime":1410.573,"body":"the party line, you're just trying to"},{"startTime":1410.573,"endTime":1414.573,"body":"make your bosses happy because they you"},{"startTime":1410.573,"endTime":1414.573,"body":"no idea, every idea has to be sanitized."},{"startTime":1414.673,"endTime":1415.003,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1415.153,"endTime":1417.923,"body":"What the customer wants"},{"startTime":1415.153,"endTime":1417.923,"body":"really is not front of mine."},{"startTime":1418.053,"endTime":1419.753,"body":"I mean, it's really not front of mine."},{"startTime":1419.793,"endTime":1424.283,"body":"I it's, it sounds absolutely bananas"},{"startTime":1419.793,"endTime":1424.283,"body":"to say out loud, but you're not"},{"startTime":1424.293,"endTime":1425.363,"body":"trying to impress the customers."},{"startTime":1425.363,"endTime":1426.853,"body":"You're trying to keep your job."},{"startTime":1427.033,"endTime":1428.333,"body":"You're trying to impress the bosses."},{"startTime":1428.593,"endTime":1432.693,"body":"You're trying to convince everyone"},{"startTime":1428.593,"endTime":1432.693,"body":"that I think like you think."},{"startTime":1432.843,"endTime":1433.683,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1433.703,"endTime":1436.963,"body":"And I've seen, this is really"},{"startTime":1433.703,"endTime":1436.963,"body":"terrible, but I've seen this where"},{"startTime":1437.113,"endTime":1441.373,"body":"customers coming up with certain"},{"startTime":1437.113,"endTime":1441.373,"body":"ideas that are outside of the the day"},{"startTime":1441.373,"endTime":1445.303,"body":"to day, how you should be working,"},{"startTime":1441.373,"endTime":1445.303,"body":"they're labeled as trouble customers."},{"startTime":1445.333,"endTime":1446.363,"body":"Yeah, trouble customers, yeah."},{"startTime":1446.403,"endTime":1447.003,"body":"Oh yeah, that customer."},{"startTime":1447.003,"endTime":1448.023,"body":"Problem children, yeah, right."},{"startTime":1448.053,"endTime":1448.733,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1448.873,"endTime":1449.563,"body":"What a shame."},{"startTime":1449.573,"endTime":1450.143,"body":"I've seen that, yeah."},{"startTime":1450.203,"endTime":1451.173,"body":"What a shame."},{"startTime":1451.283,"endTime":1454.293,"body":"But that is exactly what happens"},{"startTime":1451.283,"endTime":1454.293,"body":"in that kind of environment."},{"startTime":1454.533,"endTime":1457.573,"body":"So a person who is basically, like"},{"startTime":1454.533,"endTime":1457.573,"body":"you said, toe in the party line"},{"startTime":1457.593,"endTime":1459.493,"body":"for a while, what happens, right?"},{"startTime":1459.523,"endTime":1463.373,"body":"What happens is, You keep your boss"},{"startTime":1459.523,"endTime":1463.373,"body":"happy until they leave, and then someone"},{"startTime":1463.373,"endTime":1464.973,"body":"else comes in, and you keep them happy."},{"startTime":1465.123,"endTime":1466.873,"body":"Or they have different ways of working."},{"startTime":1467.023,"endTime":1471.363,"body":"And sooner or later they're going to"},{"startTime":1467.023,"endTime":1471.363,"body":"say, we don't need so many people, right?"},{"startTime":1471.473,"endTime":1473.043,"body":"Because we're prizing efficiency."},{"startTime":1473.073,"endTime":1473.323,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1473.603,"endTime":1474.403,"body":"And you could be out."},{"startTime":1474.433,"endTime":1478.493,"body":"So might as well take a chance and grab"},{"startTime":1474.433,"endTime":1478.493,"body":"the opportunity to make a real difference."},{"startTime":1478.683,"endTime":1482.043,"body":"now's the time where I wanna pivot us into"},{"startTime":1478.683,"endTime":1482.043,"body":"what I really wanna talk about on this, on"},{"startTime":1482.043,"endTime":1486.193,"body":"this podcast and what I really wanted to"},{"startTime":1482.043,"endTime":1486.193,"body":"talk about on the weaponizing Efficiency"},{"startTime":1486.283,"endTime":1492.463,"body":"podcast is there's some underlying"},{"startTime":1486.283,"endTime":1492.463,"body":"need for control that is coming out."},{"startTime":1492.803,"endTime":1497.733,"body":"In all of this and especially in the in"},{"startTime":1492.803,"endTime":1497.733,"body":"the point where there's a market downturn"},{"startTime":1497.883,"endTime":1502.913,"body":"and people start getting let go right or"},{"startTime":1497.883,"endTime":1502.913,"body":"entire teams getting let go or usually"},{"startTime":1502.913,"endTime":1506.713,"body":"it's the offshore teams get let go first"},{"startTime":1502.913,"endTime":1506.713,"body":"and then the contracts get let go and"},{"startTime":1506.713,"endTime":1511.173,"body":"then you know, we we save the Internal"},{"startTime":1506.713,"endTime":1511.173,"body":"employees for last or whatever and, and"},{"startTime":1511.173,"endTime":1514.773,"body":"none of this is done by like who supports"},{"startTime":1511.173,"endTime":1514.773,"body":"what revenue stream or any of that,"},{"startTime":1514.783,"endTime":1516.273,"body":"none, none, none of that is considered."},{"startTime":1516.543,"endTime":1519.753,"body":"No, it's, it's all, the"},{"startTime":1516.543,"endTime":1519.753,"body":"consideration here is which tab"},{"startTime":1519.753,"endTime":1521.203,"body":"on the spreadsheet that person is."},{"startTime":1521.403,"endTime":1525.318,"body":"And even in the phases that I just"},{"startTime":1521.403,"endTime":1525.318,"body":"pointed out, they might say, well,"},{"startTime":1525.328,"endTime":1528.398,"body":"these offshore people, I know they"},{"startTime":1525.328,"endTime":1528.398,"body":"align with my way of thinking."},{"startTime":1528.398,"endTime":1530.898,"body":"So I'll figure out a way to"},{"startTime":1528.398,"endTime":1530.898,"body":"save them and move them over"},{"startTime":1531.108,"endTime":1532.088,"body":"to this over here for a while."},{"startTime":1532.118,"endTime":1532.438,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1532.438,"endTime":1532.568,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1532.568,"endTime":1535.268,"body":"I'll consolidate some teams and get"},{"startTime":1532.568,"endTime":1535.268,"body":"rid of basically what they're, what"},{"startTime":1535.268,"endTime":1539.388,"body":"they're doing in this phase is they'll"},{"startTime":1535.268,"endTime":1539.388,"body":"get rid of the problem thinkers, right?"},{"startTime":1539.398,"endTime":1542.758,"body":"That, that's what I've seen in, in,"},{"startTime":1539.398,"endTime":1542.758,"body":"in, in the market downturn in this."},{"startTime":1542.858,"endTime":1545.258,"body":"But honestly, like everything"},{"startTime":1542.858,"endTime":1545.258,"body":"that I just described, like it"},{"startTime":1545.258,"endTime":1547.188,"body":"all comes down to like enforcing."},{"startTime":1547.338,"endTime":1551.858,"body":"Micromanagement I need to be involved"},{"startTime":1547.338,"endTime":1551.858,"body":"in your day to day work to feel"},{"startTime":1552.148,"endTime":1553.788,"body":"like I understand what's going on."},{"startTime":1553.818,"endTime":1555.828,"body":"There's a feeling involved here."},{"startTime":1556.138,"endTime":1560.608,"body":"That I don't believe that you're"},{"startTime":1556.138,"endTime":1560.608,"body":"working on the most important thing."},{"startTime":1560.758,"endTime":1562.598,"body":"That you are aligned"},{"startTime":1560.758,"endTime":1562.598,"body":"with what I'm thinking."},{"startTime":1562.628,"endTime":1564.658,"body":"There's a mistrust happening."},{"startTime":1564.668,"endTime":1566.378,"body":"It comes down to that, really, trust."},{"startTime":1566.568,"endTime":1569.358,"body":"I don't trust what you're doing,"},{"startTime":1566.568,"endTime":1569.358,"body":"therefore I'm going to tell"},{"startTime":1569.358,"endTime":1570.868,"body":"you how to do something, right?"},{"startTime":1571.048,"endTime":1576.128,"body":"It's not that I don't trust you"},{"startTime":1571.048,"endTime":1576.128,"body":"because you have broken my trust."},{"startTime":1576.408,"endTime":1578.588,"body":"And proven that you're not trustworthy."},{"startTime":1578.738,"endTime":1579.968,"body":"It is I."},{"startTime":1580.048,"endTime":1581.088,"body":"You're in security."},{"startTime":1581.098,"endTime":1581.898,"body":"I am insecure."},{"startTime":1581.898,"endTime":1582.588,"body":"As a manager."},{"startTime":1582.588,"endTime":1582.888,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1582.948,"endTime":1583.778,"body":"That is the issue."},{"startTime":1583.778,"endTime":1584.058,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1584.158,"endTime":1589.198,"body":"Or I am just not educated"},{"startTime":1584.158,"endTime":1589.198,"body":"enough to understand how to"},{"startTime":1589.198,"endTime":1594.408,"body":"look for a team that is working"},{"startTime":1589.198,"endTime":1594.408,"body":"appropriately on my requests or not."},{"startTime":1594.558,"endTime":1597.188,"body":"So I, I don't, I don't understand"},{"startTime":1594.558,"endTime":1597.188,"body":"the metrics to look for."},{"startTime":1597.338,"endTime":1597.678,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1597.898,"endTime":1598.128,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1598.178,"endTime":1599.678,"body":"I've just not been educated."},{"startTime":1599.938,"endTime":1603.243,"body":"I've kind of been thrown into"},{"startTime":1599.938,"endTime":1603.243,"body":"this leadership role and not."},{"startTime":1603.573,"endTime":1608.193,"body":"Nobody's helped me understand what"},{"startTime":1603.573,"endTime":1608.193,"body":"what success looks like on paper versus"},{"startTime":1608.423,"endTime":1610.963,"body":"not a failure or stalled progress."},{"startTime":1611.253,"endTime":1612.713,"body":"Nobody's helped me understand that."},{"startTime":1612.713,"endTime":1614.463,"body":"So I feel very insecure about it."},{"startTime":1614.613,"endTime":1616.993,"body":"So in order to make up for"},{"startTime":1614.613,"endTime":1616.993,"body":"that insecurity, I'm going"},{"startTime":1616.993,"endTime":1619.153,"body":"to micromanage this team."},{"startTime":1619.363,"endTime":1622.953,"body":"I'm going to take increasing"},{"startTime":1619.363,"endTime":1622.953,"body":"control of the day to day."},{"startTime":1623.034,"endTime":1627.723,"body":"Yeah, that's a, that's"},{"startTime":1623.034,"endTime":1627.723,"body":"a perception thing too."},{"startTime":1627.773,"endTime":1631.363,"body":"I think in a lot of times, a lot of"},{"startTime":1627.773,"endTime":1631.363,"body":"cases, the middle managers need to"},{"startTime":1631.363,"endTime":1633.823,"body":"have that perceived control, right?"},{"startTime":1633.973,"endTime":1635.473,"body":"Whether they actually have control or not."},{"startTime":1635.473,"endTime":1639.303,"body":"And what I mean by that is the reality of"},{"startTime":1635.473,"endTime":1639.303,"body":"this is as soon as you're not in the room,"},{"startTime":1639.333,"endTime":1641.303,"body":"what are people saying about you, right?"},{"startTime":1641.593,"endTime":1643.433,"body":"It's not that you're controlling them."},{"startTime":1643.483,"endTime":1645.063,"body":"It's, it's that you have a."},{"startTime":1645.403,"endTime":1647.083,"body":"Perception that you're controlling them."},{"startTime":1647.433,"endTime":1649.613,"body":"They're going to do"},{"startTime":1647.433,"endTime":1649.613,"body":"things to make you happy."},{"startTime":1649.873,"endTime":1650.163,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1650.513,"endTime":1651.713,"body":"And in turn, guess what?"},{"startTime":1651.723,"endTime":1653.883,"body":"You're going to do those things"},{"startTime":1651.723,"endTime":1653.883,"body":"that make your boss happy."},{"startTime":1654.163,"endTime":1655.383,"body":"That's what this is about."},{"startTime":1655.393,"endTime":1657.783,"body":"You're not prizing what"},{"startTime":1655.393,"endTime":1657.783,"body":"really should be prized."},{"startTime":1657.933,"endTime":1658.223,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1658.223,"endTime":1659.793,"body":"Which is delivering customer value."},{"startTime":1659.943,"endTime":1663.603,"body":"You're just basically, like I"},{"startTime":1659.943,"endTime":1663.603,"body":"said, keeping your superior happy"},{"startTime":1663.803,"endTime":1670.663,"body":"the other thing about standardization is"},{"startTime":1663.803,"endTime":1670.663,"body":"that the idea of standardization slows"},{"startTime":1670.663,"endTime":1675.778,"body":"down individual growth like there are"},{"startTime":1670.663,"endTime":1675.778,"body":"less opportunities for individuals to do"},{"startTime":1675.898,"endTime":1680.488,"body":"cool things outside of the box outside"},{"startTime":1675.898,"endTime":1680.488,"body":"of the norm Hey, if you want to you know,"},{"startTime":1680.508,"endTime":1685.308,"body":"if you want to get training dollars over"},{"startTime":1680.508,"endTime":1685.308,"body":"a certain amount approved You got to go"},{"startTime":1685.308,"endTime":1688.788,"body":"through a process Rather than just talking"},{"startTime":1685.308,"endTime":1688.788,"body":"to your manager and then they just do it."},{"startTime":1689.038,"endTime":1692.848,"body":"Or if you want to get if you want to get"},{"startTime":1689.038,"endTime":1692.848,"body":"a new technology and bring it into your"},{"startTime":1692.848,"endTime":1695.678,"body":"work center and just play around with"},{"startTime":1692.848,"endTime":1695.678,"body":"it or whatever Ed, what I was talking"},{"startTime":1695.678,"endTime":1700.848,"body":"about before is like Azure cloud or AWS,"},{"startTime":1695.678,"endTime":1700.848,"body":", AWS is a good example because AWS has."},{"startTime":1700.983,"endTime":1705.633,"body":"So much stuff available to you for"},{"startTime":1700.983,"endTime":1705.633,"body":"you to mess with so much stuff."},{"startTime":1705.953,"endTime":1712.653,"body":"Now, I mean, they have a AWS in house"},{"startTime":1705.953,"endTime":1712.653,"body":"has a whole AI ML model management"},{"startTime":1712.863,"endTime":1714.873,"body":"sort of cloud for you to play with."},{"startTime":1715.108,"endTime":1718.158,"body":"If you don't want to send your"},{"startTime":1715.108,"endTime":1718.158,"body":"stuff out, out outside the chat,"},{"startTime":1718.158,"endTime":1722.638,"body":"GPT because you don't trust chat"},{"startTime":1718.158,"endTime":1722.638,"body":"GPT to not like steal or data."},{"startTime":1722.828,"endTime":1724.288,"body":"Cause I mean Hey, that's"},{"startTime":1722.828,"endTime":1724.288,"body":"their business model."},{"startTime":1724.578,"endTime":1727.698,"body":"Like AWS hosts models for you."},{"startTime":1727.878,"endTime":1730.188,"body":"You can say, Oh, I want to use"},{"startTime":1727.878,"endTime":1730.188,"body":"this model for this purpose."},{"startTime":1730.188,"endTime":1731.238,"body":"And I want to set up this thing."},{"startTime":1731.498,"endTime":1731.688,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1731.688,"endTime":1733.178,"body":"And you can just do it all in house."},{"startTime":1733.328,"endTime":1735.198,"body":"If you just want to try some cool stuff."},{"startTime":1735.348,"endTime":1736.538,"body":"To see what you get from it."},{"startTime":1736.688,"endTime":1742.118,"body":"But now you've got this like, well, I mean"},{"startTime":1736.688,"endTime":1742.118,"body":"to set up this AWS , like application,"},{"startTime":1742.118,"endTime":1747.428,"body":"it costs like, I don't know, like 5 cents"},{"startTime":1742.118,"endTime":1747.428,"body":"per billion transactions or whatever."},{"startTime":1747.428,"endTime":1748.528,"body":"Like it's super cheap."},{"startTime":1748.528,"endTime":1749.608,"body":"It's super, it's very cheap."},{"startTime":1749.888,"endTime":1751.583,"body":"But the point is like,"},{"startTime":1749.888,"endTime":1751.583,"body":"if you don't have any."},{"startTime":1751.583,"endTime":1752.063,"body":"Financing."},{"startTime":1752.063,"endTime":1756.913,"body":"If your finances, if your financing"},{"startTime":1752.063,"endTime":1756.913,"body":"is controlled by some other board or"},{"startTime":1756.913,"endTime":1760.963,"body":"authority or whatever, and they only meet"},{"startTime":1756.913,"endTime":1760.963,"body":"like once every quarter and you have to"},{"startTime":1760.963,"endTime":1764.503,"body":"go in front of them to get a budget or"},{"startTime":1760.963,"endTime":1764.503,"body":"whatever, approval, nonsense or whatever."},{"startTime":1764.653,"endTime":1767.283,"body":"How much process do I have to"},{"startTime":1764.653,"endTime":1767.283,"body":"throw on top of this before"},{"startTime":1767.283,"endTime":1768.443,"body":"people just say You know what?"},{"startTime":1768.443,"endTime":1769.353,"body":"I'm just not gonna bother."},{"startTime":1769.503,"endTime":1770.173,"body":"I'm just not gonna bother."},{"startTime":1770.343,"endTime":1771.403,"body":"Absolutely correct."},{"startTime":1771.403,"endTime":1774.953,"body":"I think the most likely outcome out"},{"startTime":1771.403,"endTime":1774.953,"body":"of that is people just say, I'd love"},{"startTime":1774.953,"endTime":1777.943,"body":"to try that, but I'm not going to"},{"startTime":1774.953,"endTime":1777.943,"body":"be successful here trying to lobby"},{"startTime":1777.943,"endTime":1779.173,"body":"for it, so I'm not going to bother."},{"startTime":1779.343,"endTime":1779.523,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1779.533,"endTime":1780.543,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":1780.593,"endTime":1780.943,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1781.263,"endTime":1781.503,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1781.503,"endTime":1783.163,"body":"Here's the way I look at"},{"startTime":1781.503,"endTime":1783.163,"body":"it as a product manager."},{"startTime":1783.313,"endTime":1785.683,"body":"Brian \u0026 Om's software development company."},{"startTime":1785.943,"endTime":1790.213,"body":"Like Ohm is a cowboy coder he's"},{"startTime":1785.943,"endTime":1790.213,"body":"writing scripts for all kinds of weird"},{"startTime":1790.213,"endTime":1792.373,"body":"stuff that may never go anywhere."},{"startTime":1792.673,"endTime":1794.683,"body":"They might, in fact,"},{"startTime":1792.673,"endTime":1794.683,"body":"they might never help."},{"startTime":1794.858,"endTime":1795.788,"body":"Anyone do anything."},{"startTime":1795.798,"endTime":1798.538,"body":"He just thinks the output"},{"startTime":1795.798,"endTime":1798.538,"body":"of the scripts are cool."},{"startTime":1798.848,"endTime":1801.848,"body":"Ohm loves to write scripts because"},{"startTime":1798.848,"endTime":1801.848,"body":"he thinks the output is cool."},{"startTime":1801.998,"endTime":1805.918,"body":"And often, Ohm will pull an"},{"startTime":1801.998,"endTime":1805.918,"body":"engineer over to his desk and say,"},{"startTime":1805.928,"endTime":1807.468,"body":"Look at this cool script I did."},{"startTime":1807.748,"endTime":1811.568,"body":"Isn't it so cool and the engineer"},{"startTime":1807.748,"endTime":1811.568,"body":"will say, actually, not only is that"},{"startTime":1811.568,"endTime":1813.658,"body":"cool, that is very useful, right?"},{"startTime":1813.838,"endTime":1819.308,"body":"There is no forum for me to take Ohm's"},{"startTime":1813.838,"endTime":1819.308,"body":"cool script and say, here's our roadmap."},{"startTime":1819.468,"endTime":1822.848,"body":"I'm going to drop Ohm's cool"},{"startTime":1819.468,"endTime":1822.848,"body":"script into our just drop,"},{"startTime":1822.998,"endTime":1824.528,"body":"just drop it into our roadmap."},{"startTime":1824.748,"endTime":1826.858,"body":"I should probably get"},{"startTime":1824.748,"endTime":1826.858,"body":"a soundbite to do that."},{"startTime":1827.008,"endTime":1831.578,"body":"Just drop it into our roadmap because"},{"startTime":1827.008,"endTime":1831.578,"body":"Ohm wrote something cool that now"},{"startTime":1831.578,"endTime":1833.588,"body":"we can write into our main program."},{"startTime":1833.738,"endTime":1836.868,"body":"You know, our main web application"},{"startTime":1833.738,"endTime":1836.868,"body":"or whatever, and like, everybody"},{"startTime":1836.868,"endTime":1837.898,"body":"can take advantage of that."},{"startTime":1838.198,"endTime":1841.988,"body":"Like, Ohm's just like this loose cannon,"},{"startTime":1838.198,"endTime":1841.988,"body":"just writing cool stuff all day, and"},{"startTime":1841.988,"endTime":1845.218,"body":"sometimes he writes stuff that's like,"},{"startTime":1841.988,"endTime":1845.218,"body":"oh my goodness, Ohm nobody needs that."},{"startTime":1845.258,"endTime":1845.618,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1845.818,"endTime":1850.188,"body":"But sometimes you write stuff"},{"startTime":1845.818,"endTime":1850.188,"body":"that is just absolute gold!"},{"startTime":1850.388,"endTime":1853.408,"body":"So a company that has the heavy"},{"startTime":1850.388,"endTime":1853.408,"body":"process that we're talking about here"},{"startTime":1853.418,"endTime":1857.078,"body":"is unlikely to have any kind of forum"},{"startTime":1853.418,"endTime":1857.078,"body":"where people can do that, right?"},{"startTime":1857.098,"endTime":1858.158,"body":"As opposed to what?"},{"startTime":1858.228,"endTime":1861.828,"body":"As opposed to maybe just dedicated"},{"startTime":1858.228,"endTime":1861.828,"body":"time that people are given to"},{"startTime":1861.828,"endTime":1864.198,"body":"just experiment and play, right?"},{"startTime":1864.538,"endTime":1867.668,"body":"And go and create something"},{"startTime":1864.538,"endTime":1867.668,"body":"in Skunkworks or whatever."},{"startTime":1867.738,"endTime":1872.528,"body":"You may not use most of it,  you said, the"},{"startTime":1867.738,"endTime":1872.528,"body":"one thing you use, it can be gold, right?"},{"startTime":1872.678,"endTime":1875.128,"body":"But that's just like benefit side of it."},{"startTime":1875.278,"endTime":1877.658,"body":"The hidden benefit is two things."},{"startTime":1877.808,"endTime":1880.748,"body":"The developers are motivated because"},{"startTime":1877.808,"endTime":1880.748,"body":"they get to try stuff, right?"},{"startTime":1880.758,"endTime":1882.028,"body":"They don't feel like they're restricted."},{"startTime":1882.038,"endTime":1882.938,"body":"That's one benefit."},{"startTime":1883.088,"endTime":1885.238,"body":"And then the other is"},{"startTime":1883.088,"endTime":1885.238,"body":"on their morale, right?"},{"startTime":1885.278,"endTime":1886.388,"body":"I think maybe they're related."},{"startTime":1886.388,"endTime":1886.808,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1887.068,"endTime":1891.368,"body":"But you know, I'm trying new things out,"},{"startTime":1887.068,"endTime":1891.368,"body":"and maybe if it can be useful to the"},{"startTime":1891.368,"endTime":1894.678,"body":"company, maybe they'll kick a little"},{"startTime":1891.368,"endTime":1894.678,"body":"bit of money my way or something, right?"},{"startTime":1894.758,"endTime":1895.228,"body":"Pizzas."},{"startTime":1895.308,"endTime":1895.838,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1895.988,"endTime":1897.848,"body":"So that kind of thinking."},{"startTime":1898.063,"endTime":1902.773,"body":"Is usually not going to be promoted in a"},{"startTime":1898.063,"endTime":1902.773,"body":"company that has the heavy process, right?"},{"startTime":1902.793,"endTime":1904.773,"body":"You just don't have the appetite for it."},{"startTime":1904.773,"endTime":1904.963,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1905.113,"endTime":1909.643,"body":"Well, also you're like in a company that"},{"startTime":1905.113,"endTime":1909.643,"body":"has a lot of process for standardization,"},{"startTime":1909.843,"endTime":1913.673,"body":"nobody's going to do quote cool stuff"},{"startTime":1909.843,"endTime":1913.673,"body":"development because they know that the"},{"startTime":1913.673,"endTime":1917.523,"body":"company like it's going to be a lot of"},{"startTime":1913.673,"endTime":1917.523,"body":"process for the company to pick it up,"},{"startTime":1917.673,"endTime":1922.353,"body":"if you're in a company where you have"},{"startTime":1917.673,"endTime":1922.353,"body":"like two teams or three teams and you"},{"startTime":1922.353,"endTime":1925.303,"body":"have a product manager, one product"},{"startTime":1922.353,"endTime":1925.303,"body":"manager, one product line, one product"},{"startTime":1925.303,"endTime":1927.163,"body":"manager, two, three teams, right."},{"startTime":1927.223,"endTime":1929.393,"body":"And like a CEO, super small company."},{"startTime":1929.543,"endTime":1932.873,"body":"And you just have a form like, oh, well,"},{"startTime":1929.543,"endTime":1932.873,"body":"we have a company meeting every month or"},{"startTime":1932.883,"endTime":1934.103,"body":"every six weeks or something like that."},{"startTime":1934.253,"endTime":1937.203,"body":"And part of the company meeting"},{"startTime":1934.253,"endTime":1937.203,"body":"is people just demo cool stuff."},{"startTime":1937.523,"endTime":1940.743,"body":"Here's cool stuff that I"},{"startTime":1937.523,"endTime":1940.743,"body":"wrote, that I did, or whatever."},{"startTime":1940.983,"endTime":1942.053,"body":"It might not be code."},{"startTime":1942.063,"endTime":1945.173,"body":"It might just be cool, cool"},{"startTime":1942.063,"endTime":1945.173,"body":"business processes or whatever."},{"startTime":1945.203,"endTime":1945.803,"body":"It could be anything."},{"startTime":1945.803,"endTime":1946.553,"body":"Yeah, it could be anything."},{"startTime":1946.573,"endTime":1947.403,"body":"Literally anything."},{"startTime":1947.553,"endTime":1950.743,"body":"But maybe people have cool stuff"},{"startTime":1947.553,"endTime":1950.743,"body":"hey, here's my script that I wrote"},{"startTime":1950.753,"endTime":1953.343,"body":"to automate this business process,"},{"startTime":1950.753,"endTime":1953.343,"body":"or this thing that we're doing, or"},{"startTime":1953.343,"endTime":1956.363,"body":"this Email script, like that, that's,"},{"startTime":1953.343,"endTime":1956.363,"body":"that's, that's the thing I see a lot"},{"startTime":1956.363,"endTime":1958.503,"body":"is oh, here's a new customer on boards."},{"startTime":1958.503,"endTime":1961.903,"body":"We don't have a system or whatever, but I"},{"startTime":1958.503,"endTime":1961.903,"body":"put their name in a list and whenever the"},{"startTime":1961.903,"endTime":1964.923,"body":"new name is in the list, the script picks"},{"startTime":1961.903,"endTime":1964.923,"body":"it up and it sends them out an email,"},{"startTime":1964.953,"endTime":1966.933,"body":"automated email or an automated email."},{"startTime":1966.943,"endTime":1967.613,"body":"Here's the other thing."},{"startTime":1967.763,"endTime":1970.233,"body":"It's slightly more complicated,"},{"startTime":1967.763,"endTime":1970.233,"body":"but also equally cool."},{"startTime":1970.383,"endTime":1976.303,"body":"This have a script that looks at our login"},{"startTime":1970.383,"endTime":1976.303,"body":"database and it, it knows all the users"},{"startTime":1976.333,"endTime":1979.863,"body":"cause it has access to the user list and"},{"startTime":1976.333,"endTime":1979.863,"body":"it looks at the login database and it"},{"startTime":1979.863,"endTime":1981.473,"body":"says, when's the last time you logged in?"},{"startTime":1981.473,"endTime":1985.373,"body":"If the last time you logged in is more"},{"startTime":1981.473,"endTime":1985.373,"body":"than 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, whatever."},{"startTime":1985.523,"endTime":1986.443,"body":"It sends you an email."},{"startTime":1986.593,"endTime":1988.323,"body":"It says, Hey, we haven't"},{"startTime":1986.593,"endTime":1988.323,"body":"seen you in a while."},{"startTime":1988.473,"endTime":1989.703,"body":"What's going on?"},{"startTime":1989.743,"endTime":1991.703,"body":"You know, here's a Calendly link."},{"startTime":1991.783,"endTime":1994.713,"body":"You know set yourself up an"},{"startTime":1991.783,"endTime":1994.713,"body":"appointment to talk with the"},{"startTime":1994.713,"endTime":1996.413,"body":"product manager or with the CEO."},{"startTime":1996.543,"endTime":1999.923,"body":"The CEO of a tiny little"},{"startTime":1996.543,"endTime":1999.923,"body":"company, five people company."},{"startTime":2000.073,"endTime":2005.363,"body":"People might be more apt to click a"},{"startTime":2000.073,"endTime":2005.363,"body":"link and schedule time on the CEO to"},{"startTime":2005.423,"endTime":2008.613,"body":"say like, Hey, I signed up for your"},{"startTime":2005.423,"endTime":2008.613,"body":"application and I pay whatever dollars"},{"startTime":2008.613,"endTime":2011.503,"body":"a month and I don't want to use it"},{"startTime":2008.613,"endTime":2011.503,"body":"anymore because You know, you're not"},{"startTime":2011.533,"endTime":2013.653,"body":"servicing my needs as a customer."},{"startTime":2013.803,"endTime":2019.093,"body":"Well, if the automated email came from,"},{"startTime":2013.803,"endTime":2019.093,"body":"came from and response to and put time on"},{"startTime":2019.093,"endTime":2023.673,"body":"the calendar of the CEO, when they use the"},{"startTime":2019.093,"endTime":2023.673,"body":"form, I mean, you might retain a customer."},{"startTime":2023.743,"endTime":2024.153,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2024.303,"endTime":2024.843,"body":"No, you're right."},{"startTime":2024.853,"endTime":2025.243,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2025.273,"endTime":2025.863,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2026.163,"endTime":2029.023,"body":"You know, that, that, that could work"},{"startTime":2026.163,"endTime":2029.023,"body":"in a small company and a big company,"},{"startTime":2029.053,"endTime":2032.393,"body":"a big company, even if you wanted to"},{"startTime":2029.053,"endTime":2032.393,"body":"write an automated script that looks"},{"startTime":2032.393,"endTime":2035.898,"body":"at your production, even if you can"},{"startTime":2032.393,"endTime":2035.898,"body":"get access to your production database."},{"startTime":2035.898,"endTime":2036.108,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2036.198,"endTime":2039.078,"body":"To get the list, writing the"},{"startTime":2036.198,"endTime":2039.078,"body":"automated script and running it on"},{"startTime":2039.083,"endTime":2040.878,"body":"a regular basis against production."},{"startTime":2041.028,"endTime":2041.268,"body":"Big."},{"startTime":2041.268,"endTime":2041.808,"body":"No-no."},{"startTime":2041.928,"endTime":2043.428,"body":"You have to get approval"},{"startTime":2041.928,"endTime":2043.428,"body":"for that and then."},{"startTime":2043.578,"endTime":2047.168,"body":"Pulling the CEO in or product manager"},{"startTime":2043.578,"endTime":2047.168,"body":"or whoever it is like, that's another."},{"startTime":2047.338,"endTime":2051.718,"body":"So I guess what I'm, as what I'm saying"},{"startTime":2047.338,"endTime":2051.718,"body":"is as an individual trying to look"},{"startTime":2051.718,"endTime":2054.448,"body":"for different ways that you can grow"},{"startTime":2051.718,"endTime":2054.448,"body":"different ways, you can expand and"},{"startTime":2054.448,"endTime":2056.458,"body":"try different things, try cool things"},{"startTime":2056.608,"endTime":2062.008,"body":"how many different layers Are you willing"},{"startTime":2056.608,"endTime":2062.008,"body":"to punch through before you're just gonna"},{"startTime":2062.008,"endTime":2063.598,"body":"say, you know what, it's just not right."},{"startTime":2063.748,"endTime":2069.418,"body":"I mean, the users that log on to the"},{"startTime":2063.748,"endTime":2069.418,"body":"platform, log on to my website and like,"},{"startTime":2069.448,"endTime":2071.488,"body":"they never get past the activation phase."},{"startTime":2071.838,"endTime":2072.678,"body":"I'm not gonna pause."},{"startTime":2072.678,"endTime":2076.068,"body":"It's so much work for me to"},{"startTime":2072.678,"endTime":2076.068,"body":"get all the different approvals"},{"startTime":2076.068,"endTime":2077.088,"body":"to talk to these people."},{"startTime":2077.238,"endTime":2080.538,"body":"Nevermind, they're gonna take the"},{"startTime":2077.238,"endTime":2080.538,"body":"path to least resistance, right?"},{"startTime":2080.568,"endTime":2081.588,"body":"They're not gonna do that."},{"startTime":2081.588,"endTime":2082.038,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2082.098,"endTime":2083.208,"body":"Because they may get their hand."},{"startTime":2083.358,"endTime":2085.488,"body":"Slapped at the, at the minimum, right?"},{"startTime":2085.778,"endTime":2089.028,"body":"Or they will be yelled at"},{"startTime":2085.778,"endTime":2089.028,"body":"and told to stay in the lane."},{"startTime":2089.148,"endTime":2090.038,"body":"That's not good."},{"startTime":2090.158,"endTime":2090.358,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2090.368,"endTime":2090.728,"body":"That's not good."},{"startTime":2090.978,"endTime":2093.838,"body":"Because you're not using the best"},{"startTime":2090.978,"endTime":2093.838,"body":"thing for the job at that point."},{"startTime":2093.848,"endTime":2095.818,"body":"And my corporate culture never evolves."},{"startTime":2095.928,"endTime":2096.478,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2096.628,"endTime":2096.838,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2096.858,"endTime":2097.188,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2097.258,"endTime":2099.108,"body":"And you get frustrated, right?"},{"startTime":2099.348,"endTime":2101.248,"body":"Because you can not proceed"},{"startTime":2099.348,"endTime":2101.248,"body":"the way you want to."},{"startTime":2101.318,"endTime":2101.598,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2101.748,"endTime":2102.568,"body":"Yeah, I don't get it."},{"startTime":2102.648,"endTime":2103.118,"body":"I don't get it."},{"startTime":2103.228,"endTime":2107.808,"body":"the other thing that I don't get when"},{"startTime":2103.228,"endTime":2107.808,"body":"you're trying to enforce these standards"},{"startTime":2107.808,"endTime":2114.408,"body":"Usually what happens is they do not get"},{"startTime":2107.808,"endTime":2114.408,"body":"enforced consistently across all teams."},{"startTime":2114.558,"endTime":2117.888,"body":"So now there's all kinds of feeling"},{"startTime":2114.558,"endTime":2117.888,"body":"of like, even if you wanted to"},{"startTime":2117.888,"endTime":2121.368,"body":"enforce them consistently across"},{"startTime":2117.888,"endTime":2121.368,"body":"all teams, you'll get these feelings"},{"startTime":2121.368,"endTime":2124.808,"body":"of favoritism and these feelings of"},{"startTime":2121.368,"endTime":2124.808,"body":"like, Oh, those people get what they"},{"startTime":2124.818,"endTime":2126.328,"body":"need, but I never get what I need."},{"startTime":2126.328,"endTime":2130.378,"body":"Also I've seen intentionally giving"},{"startTime":2126.328,"endTime":2130.378,"body":"some teams everything they want"},{"startTime":2130.528,"endTime":2134.748,"body":"because they're more vocal about"},{"startTime":2130.528,"endTime":2134.748,"body":"this pushing back than other teams."},{"startTime":2134.908,"endTime":2135.118,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2135.118,"endTime":2137.838,"body":"And those teams may have different"},{"startTime":2135.118,"endTime":2137.838,"body":"relationships with those people"},{"startTime":2137.838,"endTime":2139.718,"body":"that are holding the decisions."},{"startTime":2139.898,"endTime":2140.428,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":2140.713,"endTime":2142.823,"body":"And then you have the undercurrent"},{"startTime":2140.713,"endTime":2142.823,"body":"of politics in there too."},{"startTime":2142.823,"endTime":2143.623,"body":"Right, yeah, exactly right."},{"startTime":2143.773,"endTime":2144.523,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":2144.713,"endTime":2147.593,"body":"And the last thing I want to bring up,"},{"startTime":2144.713,"endTime":2147.593,"body":"because I think we've talked about this"},{"startTime":2147.593,"endTime":2150.793,"body":"way more than I wanted to talk about"},{"startTime":2147.593,"endTime":2150.793,"body":"this category of standardization is."},{"startTime":2150.943,"endTime":2153.363,"body":"Your relationships with vendors."},{"startTime":2153.363,"endTime":2158.473,"body":"I heard a story once, somebody told me a"},{"startTime":2153.363,"endTime":2158.473,"body":"story once where they said my procurement"},{"startTime":2158.483,"endTime":2161.843,"body":"department requires three equal vendors."},{"startTime":2161.993,"endTime":2166.493,"body":"Three equal choices to be submitted"},{"startTime":2161.993,"endTime":2166.493,"body":"to them before they will allow"},{"startTime":2166.503,"endTime":2169.043,"body":"me to access procurement funds."},{"startTime":2169.223,"endTime":2174.323,"body":"Even if the acquisition of a software"},{"startTime":2169.223,"endTime":2174.323,"body":"package or a third party package or"},{"startTime":2174.323,"endTime":2178.753,"body":"something, even if that acquisition"},{"startTime":2174.323,"endTime":2178.753,"body":"is approved by whatever manager,"},{"startTime":2178.753,"endTime":2181.583,"body":"whoever in the organization, the"},{"startTime":2178.753,"endTime":2181.583,"body":"acquisition, like the acquisition"},{"startTime":2181.583,"endTime":2184.403,"body":"department, the people actually like"},{"startTime":2181.583,"endTime":2184.403,"body":"sign contracts on behalf of the company."},{"startTime":2184.553,"endTime":2186.213,"body":"They, they require."},{"startTime":2186.363,"endTime":2188.523,"body":"Three different quotes, basically."},{"startTime":2188.673,"endTime":2192.753,"body":"So, even if I know that this one"},{"startTime":2188.673,"endTime":2192.753,"body":"software fits all my needs, and I've"},{"startTime":2192.753,"endTime":2195.673,"body":"researched all the different types of"},{"startTime":2192.753,"endTime":2195.673,"body":"software, maybe I've signed up for free"},{"startTime":2195.673,"endTime":2199.413,"body":"trials and I've tried them, even if I"},{"startTime":2195.673,"endTime":2199.413,"body":"did all the legwork, the procurement"},{"startTime":2199.413,"endTime":2201.683,"body":"people still want three choices."},{"startTime":2202.023,"endTime":2204.623,"body":"And I'm saying three choices because"},{"startTime":2202.023,"endTime":2204.623,"body":"I know there's companies out there"},{"startTime":2204.623,"endTime":2206.463,"body":"that want more than three choices."},{"startTime":2206.713,"endTime":2209.743,"body":"I've, I've heard as high as six"},{"startTime":2206.713,"endTime":2209.743,"body":"choices, which I think is ludicrous."},{"startTime":2209.893,"endTime":2215.593,"body":"So, so the reason that the procurement"},{"startTime":2209.893,"endTime":2215.593,"body":"department wants multiple choices is"},{"startTime":2215.793,"endTime":2219.603,"body":"because they want to be able to note"},{"startTime":2215.793,"endTime":2219.603,"body":"the cost of all the different choices"},{"startTime":2219.603,"endTime":2221.743,"body":"that that we're choosing between."},{"startTime":2221.893,"endTime":2223.303,"body":"And at the end of the year."},{"startTime":2223.573,"endTime":2227.983,"body":"They want to say, here's the highest"},{"startTime":2223.573,"endTime":2227.983,"body":"cost choice and here's the choice"},{"startTime":2227.983,"endTime":2230.713,"body":"that we went with, which assuming"},{"startTime":2227.983,"endTime":2230.713,"body":"it's not the highest cost choice."},{"startTime":2230.863,"endTime":2236.913,"body":"They want to be able to say, we saved"},{"startTime":2230.863,"endTime":2236.913,"body":"the company a potential amount of money"},{"startTime":2237.253,"endTime":2241.183,"body":"by the difference of the highest choice"},{"startTime":2237.253,"endTime":2241.183,"body":"and the choice that we went with."},{"startTime":2241.493,"endTime":2244.353,"body":"So they're trying to justify"},{"startTime":2241.493,"endTime":2244.353,"body":"the procurement department's"},{"startTime":2244.503,"endTime":2248.943,"body":"existence by saying, well,"},{"startTime":2244.503,"endTime":2248.943,"body":"we, if we weren't around, we."},{"startTime":2249.153,"endTime":2252.893,"body":"Maybe could have gone with"},{"startTime":2249.153,"endTime":2252.893,"body":"the highest dollar figure."},{"startTime":2253.043,"endTime":2258.133,"body":"But in reality, usually the"},{"startTime":2253.043,"endTime":2258.133,"body":"requirements and the decisions"},{"startTime":2258.133,"endTime":2259.703,"body":"that go into the purchase."},{"startTime":2259.853,"endTime":2264.153,"body":"are done  before any of the"},{"startTime":2259.853,"endTime":2264.153,"body":"purchase recs are even submitted"},{"startTime":2264.443,"endTime":2268.233,"body":"and the, the sad part of this is"},{"startTime":2264.443,"endTime":2268.233,"body":"like, if we're interviewing like five"},{"startTime":2268.233,"endTime":2271.833,"body":"software vendors to figure out what"},{"startTime":2268.233,"endTime":2271.833,"body":"cloud solution we have to go for Oh,"},{"startTime":2271.903,"endTime":2275.853,"body":"like I'm engaging five different sales"},{"startTime":2271.903,"endTime":2275.853,"body":"departments to do the whole song and"},{"startTime":2275.853,"endTime":2277.883,"body":"dance and to come in and do demos."},{"startTime":2277.883,"endTime":2279.203,"body":"And I'm wasting a lot of time."},{"startTime":2279.453,"endTime":2280.913,"body":"Like I'm going to invite our tech lead."},{"startTime":2280.913,"endTime":2282.253,"body":"I'm going to invite our product person."},{"startTime":2282.473,"endTime":2283.853,"body":"I'm going to invite"},{"startTime":2282.473,"endTime":2283.853,"body":"the procurement person."},{"startTime":2283.853,"endTime":2287.483,"body":"I'm invite a whole bunch of people"},{"startTime":2283.853,"endTime":2287.483,"body":"on our company when I know, because"},{"startTime":2287.483,"endTime":2288.983,"body":"I've already vetted the solutions."},{"startTime":2289.133,"endTime":2290.303,"body":"I want to go with this one."},{"startTime":2290.453,"endTime":2294.843,"body":"And I wrote the requirements to highly"},{"startTime":2290.453,"endTime":2294.843,"body":"favor this one, in case the procurement"},{"startTime":2294.843,"endTime":2297.123,"body":"people mess it up for me, by the way."},{"startTime":2297.273,"endTime":2300.473,"body":"And also, I'm only going through the"},{"startTime":2297.273,"endTime":2300.473,"body":"song and dance because I'm trying to"},{"startTime":2300.613,"endTime":2305.033,"body":"check off checklists on the procurement"},{"startTime":2300.613,"endTime":2305.033,"body":"people's checklist, basically."},{"startTime":2305.188,"endTime":2307.558,"body":"This, this situation you"},{"startTime":2305.188,"endTime":2307.558,"body":"just outlined is real."},{"startTime":2307.708,"endTime":2311.158,"body":"I've seen this at"},{"startTime":2307.708,"endTime":2311.158,"body":"multiple locations, right?"},{"startTime":2311.158,"endTime":2311.968,"body":"I've seen this."},{"startTime":2312.118,"endTime":2314.608,"body":"When you mentioned that at the"},{"startTime":2312.118,"endTime":2314.608,"body":"end of the year, they can say this"},{"startTime":2314.608,"endTime":2318.478,"body":"is the amount of money we saved"},{"startTime":2314.608,"endTime":2318.478,"body":"through a prudent vendor diligence."},{"startTime":2319.376,"endTime":2322.576,"body":"I bet you they're incented based"},{"startTime":2319.376,"endTime":2322.576,"body":"on that in some way, shape or form."},{"startTime":2322.886,"endTime":2326.256,"body":"If they're incented that way, then"},{"startTime":2322.886,"endTime":2326.256,"body":"that's the behavior that you'll get."},{"startTime":2326.286,"endTime":2326.576,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2326.726,"endTime":2329.626,"body":"And the irony of it is, as you"},{"startTime":2326.726,"endTime":2329.626,"body":"said the diligence has already"},{"startTime":2329.626,"endTime":2331.636,"body":"been done at a different level."},{"startTime":2331.826,"endTime":2334.286,"body":"You've decided vendor"},{"startTime":2331.826,"endTime":2334.286,"body":"X is the right vendor."},{"startTime":2334.436,"endTime":2336.436,"body":"You may even have finance for that."},{"startTime":2336.446,"endTime":2339.916,"body":"You may have financial approval to"},{"startTime":2336.446,"endTime":2339.916,"body":"go spend the money, but procurement"},{"startTime":2339.916,"endTime":2341.416,"body":"is a different department and."},{"startTime":2341.491,"endTime":2344.181,"body":"They have, they usually have long"},{"startTime":2341.491,"endTime":2344.181,"body":"lead times too, for some reason."},{"startTime":2344.211,"endTime":2347.301,"body":"I don't know why, because I guess I know"},{"startTime":2344.211,"endTime":2347.301,"body":"why, because they have to go through"},{"startTime":2347.301,"endTime":2349.941,"body":"and look at the company and all of that."},{"startTime":2349.941,"endTime":2350.251,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2350.411,"endTime":2351.741,"body":"The vendor company and all of that."},{"startTime":2351.761,"endTime":2352.271,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":2352.601,"endTime":2355.951,"body":"So all that time that you're"},{"startTime":2352.601,"endTime":2355.951,"body":"wasting, and at the end of it,"},{"startTime":2355.961,"endTime":2357.341,"body":"they will come back and say."},{"startTime":2357.591,"endTime":2360.261,"body":"Either if you're lucky, they'll say,"},{"startTime":2357.591,"endTime":2360.261,"body":"yeah, you can have the vendor you"},{"startTime":2360.261,"endTime":2363.821,"body":"want, but you've lost all that time"},{"startTime":2360.261,"endTime":2363.821,"body":"or they could say, no, this one's,"},{"startTime":2363.921,"endTime":2366.611,"body":"this one's better because it, it"},{"startTime":2363.921,"endTime":2366.611,"body":"meets 90 percent of what you need,"},{"startTime":2366.611,"endTime":2368.241,"body":"but we're saving X thousand dollars."},{"startTime":2368.251,"endTime":2368.471,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2368.581,"endTime":2368.761,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2368.761,"endTime":2372.351,"body":"You, and usually the, the way that this"},{"startTime":2368.761,"endTime":2372.351,"body":"will manifest is, is for the company to"},{"startTime":2372.421,"endTime":2377.371,"body":"come down with a dictate that says the"},{"startTime":2372.421,"endTime":2377.371,"body":"only people allowed to sign contracts on"},{"startTime":2377.371,"endTime":2381.931,"body":"behalf of this company or as this company"},{"startTime":2377.371,"endTime":2381.931,"body":"are the procurement department or the"},{"startTime":2381.941,"endTime":2383.561,"body":"contracts departments, whatever it is."},{"startTime":2383.711,"endTime":2387.236,"body":"we go back to the the purpose of this"},{"startTime":2383.711,"endTime":2387.236,"body":"podcast, like if you're going to weaponize"},{"startTime":2387.236,"endTime":2391.946,"body":"it, like it's very easy to say the"},{"startTime":2387.236,"endTime":2391.946,"body":"only people who can spend any money on"},{"startTime":2391.956,"endTime":2394.116,"body":"behalf of the company are these people."},{"startTime":2394.286,"endTime":2398.746,"body":"So basically the policies they lay down,"},{"startTime":2394.286,"endTime":2398.746,"body":"no matter how bureaucratic or ludicrous"},{"startTime":2398.746,"endTime":2402.896,"body":"or whatever they are, or laborious they"},{"startTime":2398.746,"endTime":2402.896,"body":"are, that's the word I use in the podcast."},{"startTime":2402.946,"endTime":2403.486,"body":"That's a good word."},{"startTime":2403.636,"endTime":2404.776,"body":"Whatever they say goes."},{"startTime":2404.926,"endTime":2408.496,"body":"I'd say if you're in that kind of a"},{"startTime":2404.926,"endTime":2408.496,"body":"culture, make friends with these people."},{"startTime":2408.846,"endTime":2410.176,"body":"Because that's the way"},{"startTime":2408.846,"endTime":2410.176,"body":"you're going to get ahead."},{"startTime":2410.326,"endTime":2410.686,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":2410.836,"endTime":2411.166,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2411.416,"endTime":2411.706,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2411.866,"endTime":2412.656,"body":"Offer something."},{"startTime":2412.806,"endTime":2413.556,"body":"But also again."},{"startTime":2413.556,"endTime":2414.046,"body":"How do you deal with that?"},{"startTime":2414.276,"endTime":2417.246,"body":"it doesn't help with customer value, it"},{"startTime":2414.276,"endTime":2417.246,"body":"doesn't help with value delivered, it"},{"startTime":2417.246,"endTime":2419.866,"body":"doesn't help with speed to market, it"},{"startTime":2417.246,"endTime":2419.866,"body":"doesn't help with a lot of other things."},{"startTime":2420.016,"endTime":2425.786,"body":"it'd be better if these people are lending"},{"startTime":2420.016,"endTime":2425.786,"body":"their expertise to the decision process"},{"startTime":2426.046,"endTime":2428.066,"body":"and I'm bringing them in as experts."},{"startTime":2428.386,"endTime":2430.476,"body":"The same way I'm bringing"},{"startTime":2428.386,"endTime":2430.476,"body":"in finance people."},{"startTime":2430.626,"endTime":2433.776,"body":"To help me with finance decisions"},{"startTime":2430.626,"endTime":2433.776,"body":"engineering people to help me with"},{"startTime":2433.796,"endTime":2439.286,"body":"engineering decisions again It's just we"},{"startTime":2433.796,"endTime":2439.286,"body":"like the normal models don't don't really"},{"startTime":2439.286,"endTime":2443.996,"body":"help you understand how to integrate these"},{"startTime":2439.286,"endTime":2443.996,"body":"non technical people into your decision"},{"startTime":2443.996,"endTime":2448.631,"body":"flows and I feel that's that might be a"},{"startTime":2443.996,"endTime":2448.631,"body":"big failing of the Certification and the"},{"startTime":2448.631,"endTime":2450.421,"body":"kind of the whole industry here for sure."},{"startTime":2450.431,"endTime":2450.901,"body":"For sure."},{"startTime":2450.901,"endTime":2451.701,"body":"There's a lot there."},{"startTime":2451.751,"endTime":2452.401,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2452.401,"endTime":2456.491,"body":"I mean, all of those domains that"},{"startTime":2452.401,"endTime":2456.491,"body":"you mentioned HR, legal, right."},{"startTime":2456.541,"endTime":2458.721,"body":"All of those play into this whole thing."},{"startTime":2458.761,"endTime":2459.271,"body":"Sales."},{"startTime":2459.271,"endTime":2459.981,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":2460.091,"endTime":2460.401,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2460.551,"endTime":2461.371,"body":"Standardization."},{"startTime":2461.371,"endTime":2465.541,"body":"I don't know if we gave a fair shake"},{"startTime":2461.371,"endTime":2465.541,"body":"to both sides of every category in a"},{"startTime":2465.561,"endTime":2469.861,"body":"standardization, like, I understand"},{"startTime":2465.561,"endTime":2469.861,"body":"if your company says, okay, we're only"},{"startTime":2469.861,"endTime":2474.401,"body":"going to buy laptops from Dell, for"},{"startTime":2469.861,"endTime":2474.401,"body":"example I don't know why I'm going back"},{"startTime":2474.401,"endTime":2477.571,"body":"to the early two thousands, like I'm"},{"startTime":2474.401,"endTime":2477.571,"body":"only going to buy laptops from Dell"},{"startTime":2477.841,"endTime":2481.991,"body":"because if we standardize a vendor"},{"startTime":2477.841,"endTime":2481.991,"body":"and say, we're only buying from Dell,"},{"startTime":2482.241,"endTime":2486.651,"body":"then we get a solid 20 percent off"},{"startTime":2482.241,"endTime":2486.651,"body":"of all Dell hardware that we buy."},{"startTime":2486.941,"endTime":2488.301,"body":"And we only buy from that vendor."},{"startTime":2488.481,"endTime":2492.001,"body":"Like that that's, I mean, that's"},{"startTime":2488.481,"endTime":2492.001,"body":"clearly a savings to the company."},{"startTime":2492.261,"endTime":2496.111,"body":"As long as the Dell hardware"},{"startTime":2492.261,"endTime":2496.111,"body":"is competitive with other"},{"startTime":2496.121,"endTime":2496.951,"body":"hardware on the market."},{"startTime":2497.101,"endTime":2500.831,"body":"But that's an interesting example"},{"startTime":2497.101,"endTime":2500.831,"body":"because you may have, and this is"},{"startTime":2500.931,"endTime":2502.971,"body":"again real, right, companies do this."},{"startTime":2503.121,"endTime":2507.311,"body":"But you may have a legit reason"},{"startTime":2503.121,"endTime":2507.311,"body":"why a developer or some developers"},{"startTime":2507.311,"endTime":2509.171,"body":"need Macs, for example, right?"},{"startTime":2509.431,"endTime":2513.161,"body":"So, yeah, I mean they're expensive"},{"startTime":2509.431,"endTime":2513.161,"body":"compared to Dell's, I imagine, even today."},{"startTime":2513.311,"endTime":2517.711,"body":"Give them those things because they"},{"startTime":2513.311,"endTime":2517.711,"body":"need them to develop things on Mac OS."},{"startTime":2517.951,"endTime":2519.071,"body":"That's just an example."},{"startTime":2519.211,"endTime":2521.051,"body":"You can justify those"},{"startTime":2519.211,"endTime":2521.051,"body":"things, though, I feel."},{"startTime":2521.296,"endTime":2524.526,"body":"How can I develop something on"},{"startTime":2521.296,"endTime":2524.526,"body":"Mac OS when I don't have Mac OS?"},{"startTime":2524.586,"endTime":2524.826,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2524.936,"endTime":2529.576,"body":"But trying to make people that are in"},{"startTime":2524.936,"endTime":2529.576,"body":"these other departments understand that."},{"startTime":2529.856,"endTime":2530.136,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2530.136,"endTime":2533.126,"body":"Because they see names"},{"startTime":2530.136,"endTime":2533.126,"body":"and they see numbers."},{"startTime":2533.476,"endTime":2535.046,"body":"So they look at, oh, you want a Mac?"},{"startTime":2535.076,"endTime":2536.096,"body":"No, you can't have a Mac."},{"startTime":2536.306,"endTime":2537.096,"body":"They're very expensive."},{"startTime":2537.206,"endTime":2537.476,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2537.676,"endTime":2537.986,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2538.056,"endTime":2539.506,"body":"We've got this thing with Dell."},{"startTime":2539.526,"endTime":2540.266,"body":"You can have a Dell."},{"startTime":2540.416,"endTime":2544.096,"body":"I fought that fight with some"},{"startTime":2540.416,"endTime":2544.096,"body":"companies, on behalf of my developers."},{"startTime":2544.246,"endTime":2546.706,"body":"They just say, oh, how do I"},{"startTime":2544.246,"endTime":2546.706,"body":"develop without, I'm like."},{"startTime":2546.726,"endTime":2546.946,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2547.096,"endTime":2547.286,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2547.316,"endTime":2547.716,"body":"Good point."},{"startTime":2547.796,"endTime":2548.136,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2548.396,"endTime":2549.806,"body":"And then you got to go fight the fight."},{"startTime":2550.006,"endTime":2551.916,"body":"But process for processes sake."},{"startTime":2552.196,"endTime":2555.526,"body":"Anytime when you're looking at"},{"startTime":2552.196,"endTime":2555.526,"body":"any kind of process, look for"},{"startTime":2555.526,"endTime":2556.826,"body":"the benefit coming out of it."},{"startTime":2556.976,"endTime":2557.266,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2557.276,"endTime":2558.856,"body":"To those that are going through it."},{"startTime":2558.876,"endTime":2560.996,"body":"And if there's no"},{"startTime":2558.876,"endTime":2560.996,"body":"benefit, then question it."},{"startTime":2561.036,"endTime":2563.486,"body":"Like, just feel free to"},{"startTime":2561.036,"endTime":2563.486,"body":"say, why are we doing this?"},{"startTime":2563.626,"endTime":2567.076,"body":"This way, but not in an not,"},{"startTime":2563.626,"endTime":2567.076,"body":"not in an accusatory tone."},{"startTime":2567.096,"endTime":2569.746,"body":"I mean, just go in and say, wouldn't"},{"startTime":2567.096,"endTime":2569.746,"body":"it be better if we did it this way?"},{"startTime":2569.906,"endTime":2571.306,"body":"Cause it's quicker, right."},{"startTime":2571.346,"endTime":2576.406,"body":"Or you know, it gets us to the end result"},{"startTime":2571.346,"endTime":2576.406,"body":"without having so many stage gates, right?"},{"startTime":2576.456,"endTime":2579.016,"body":"Sign offs is another big one in processes."},{"startTime":2579.056,"endTime":2581.586,"body":"I can't believe we did this whole"},{"startTime":2579.056,"endTime":2581.586,"body":"podcast and we did not talk about"},{"startTime":2581.586,"endTime":2586.086,"body":"the number one weapon of choice"},{"startTime":2581.586,"endTime":2586.086,"body":"which is handoffs or signoffs or"},{"startTime":2586.086,"endTime":2588.006,"body":"stage gates or something like that."},{"startTime":2588.016,"endTime":2590.686,"body":"Like I think we implied it, but"},{"startTime":2588.016,"endTime":2590.686,"body":"we did not specifically talk"},{"startTime":2590.696,"endTime":2592.186,"body":"about handoffs or signoffs."},{"startTime":2592.276,"endTime":2596.936,"body":"I have this thing that I love to tell"},{"startTime":2592.276,"endTime":2596.936,"body":"people as a product manager, I think"},{"startTime":2596.936,"endTime":2600.536,"body":"handoffs are a big waste of time, and I"},{"startTime":2596.936,"endTime":2600.536,"body":"hate them, and I don't want to do them."},{"startTime":2600.686,"endTime":2604.016,"body":"Well, in the lean way of thinking,"},{"startTime":2600.686,"endTime":2604.016,"body":"handoffs are a waste of time, and"},{"startTime":2604.016,"endTime":2607.636,"body":"we look to eliminate those as much"},{"startTime":2604.016,"endTime":2607.636,"body":"as possible, or minimize them to"},{"startTime":2607.636,"endTime":2609.356,"body":"the point where none are left."},{"startTime":2609.506,"endTime":2610.446,"body":"But this is real."},{"startTime":2610.506,"endTime":2614.216,"body":"Handoffs are real because, again, people"},{"startTime":2610.506,"endTime":2614.216,"body":"have that insecurity that I must be"},{"startTime":2614.216,"endTime":2618.186,"body":"able to see things and put my rubber"},{"startTime":2614.216,"endTime":2618.186,"body":"stamp on it and that's the sign off."},{"startTime":2618.336,"endTime":2619.366,"body":"They become bottlenecks."},{"startTime":2619.406,"endTime":2621.936,"body":"I mean, you wait for"},{"startTime":2619.406,"endTime":2621.936,"body":"people to sign off things."},{"startTime":2622.086,"endTime":2622.476,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2622.676,"endTime":2628.136,"body":"And the ultimate is attending a StageGate"},{"startTime":2622.676,"endTime":2628.136,"body":"review meeting and then defending the"},{"startTime":2628.136,"endTime":2632.066,"body":"work that your team has done and then"},{"startTime":2628.136,"endTime":2632.066,"body":"looking for approval from someone who"},{"startTime":2632.066,"endTime":2635.616,"body":"has no clue, by the way, about the"},{"startTime":2632.066,"endTime":2635.616,"body":"functionality you've built, right?"},{"startTime":2635.816,"endTime":2638.846,"body":"This is like only things that you get"},{"startTime":2635.816,"endTime":2638.846,"body":"at large companies because I can't,"},{"startTime":2638.846,"endTime":2643.216,"body":"I can't, I can't even fathom as a"},{"startTime":2638.846,"endTime":2643.216,"body":"product manager sitting in a room"},{"startTime":2643.216,"endTime":2645.976,"body":"with an architect who doesn't know my"},{"startTime":2643.216,"endTime":2645.976,"body":"business, doesn't know my customers,"},{"startTime":2645.976,"endTime":2647.316,"body":"doesn't know why I'm building things."},{"startTime":2647.636,"endTime":2651.896,"body":"That basically has no context as to"},{"startTime":2647.636,"endTime":2651.896,"body":"the why poking holes in my application."},{"startTime":2652.046,"endTime":2655.846,"body":"Let me add a little context to what"},{"startTime":2652.046,"endTime":2655.846,"body":"I'm saying, because I will often put"},{"startTime":2655.846,"endTime":2657.746,"body":"features out before they are ready."},{"startTime":2657.896,"endTime":2660.966,"body":"And I know that the features"},{"startTime":2657.896,"endTime":2660.966,"body":"are not quite right."},{"startTime":2661.226,"endTime":2665.406,"body":"So I am expecting, oh Brian,"},{"startTime":2661.226,"endTime":2665.406,"body":"you put up this new drop down."},{"startTime":2665.636,"endTime":2668.966,"body":"But it doesn't have the most obvious"},{"startTime":2665.636,"endTime":2668.966,"body":"option in the drop down that most"},{"startTime":2668.966,"endTime":2673.346,"body":"customers would expect, I want to pull"},{"startTime":2668.966,"endTime":2673.346,"body":"a drop down and export this file to PDF."},{"startTime":2673.616,"endTime":2677.756,"body":"But you only allow me to"},{"startTime":2673.616,"endTime":2677.756,"body":"export it as a PNG or whatever."},{"startTime":2677.906,"endTime":2681.156,"body":"How come you didn't like everybody"},{"startTime":2677.906,"endTime":2681.156,"body":"needs P everyone needs PDF."},{"startTime":2681.306,"endTime":2681.656,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2681.796,"endTime":2686.096,"body":"I know everyone needs PDF and I know"},{"startTime":2681.796,"endTime":2686.096,"body":"that if I put PDF, that would be the"},{"startTime":2686.096,"endTime":2690.456,"body":"only option everyone shows, but I also"},{"startTime":2686.096,"endTime":2690.456,"body":"know like on the backside of the house"},{"startTime":2690.656,"endTime":2693.176,"body":"like in the backend, like I need a."},{"startTime":2693.271,"endTime":2696.941,"body":"PDF processor and I know I have to"},{"startTime":2693.271,"endTime":2696.941,"body":"pay for it or buy one or do whatever."},{"startTime":2697.221,"endTime":2701.771,"body":"And, and I'm like, I'm not sure that"},{"startTime":2697.221,"endTime":2701.771,"body":"this workflow that leads people to saving"},{"startTime":2701.781,"endTime":2704.001,"body":"off the file is even a valid workflow."},{"startTime":2704.251,"endTime":2708.561,"body":"So I want to see people go to the"},{"startTime":2704.251,"endTime":2708.561,"body":"workflow, select a thing and hit"},{"startTime":2708.571,"endTime":2712.321,"body":"download or select the thing and then"},{"startTime":2708.571,"endTime":2712.321,"body":"back out and not hit download again."},{"startTime":2712.321,"endTime":2715.981,"body":"This assumes you have good user metrics,"},{"startTime":2712.321,"endTime":2715.981,"body":"good instrumentation in your application."},{"startTime":2716.131,"endTime":2717.231,"body":"I already know."},{"startTime":2717.381,"endTime":2720.701,"body":"That I'm not, that I am not servicing"},{"startTime":2717.381,"endTime":2720.701,"body":"the customer for what they really"},{"startTime":2720.701,"endTime":2725.291,"body":"need, but I want to see that they take"},{"startTime":2720.701,"endTime":2725.291,"body":"that, that path in the application."},{"startTime":2725.441,"endTime":2729.131,"body":"It's really easy to push"},{"startTime":2725.441,"endTime":2729.131,"body":"out fake door features."},{"startTime":2729.301,"endTime":2730.971,"body":"Like for example download PDF."},{"startTime":2730.981,"endTime":2732.411,"body":"Like if we're talking about PDFs, right."},{"startTime":2732.701,"endTime":2734.081,"body":"I don't know why we're talking about PDFs."},{"startTime":2734.231,"endTime":2737.071,"body":"I can add a download PDF"},{"startTime":2734.231,"endTime":2737.071,"body":"button in my application."},{"startTime":2737.221,"endTime":2741.381,"body":"I can just go to developers and"},{"startTime":2737.221,"endTime":2741.381,"body":"say add a download PDF button."},{"startTime":2741.681,"endTime":2743.151,"body":"But it doesn't do anything right now."},{"startTime":2743.181,"endTime":2747.771,"body":"Clicking it says, downloading PDFs"},{"startTime":2743.181,"endTime":2747.771,"body":"is currently restricted, will be"},{"startTime":2747.771,"endTime":2749.281,"body":"available in a future release."},{"startTime":2749.626,"endTime":2750.296,"body":"Or whatever."},{"startTime":2750.506,"endTime":2751.096,"body":"Perfect."},{"startTime":2751.196,"endTime":2751.526,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2751.676,"endTime":2755.036,"body":"Architect, or somebody says like, Why"},{"startTime":2751.676,"endTime":2755.036,"body":"would you even, why would you allow that?"},{"startTime":2755.046,"endTime":2757.216,"body":"Like, just hide it if it's"},{"startTime":2755.046,"endTime":2757.216,"body":"not there because it's going"},{"startTime":2757.216,"endTime":2758.206,"body":"to make For many reasons why."},{"startTime":2758.266,"endTime":2759.526,"body":"It doesn't look professional, Ohm."},{"startTime":2759.536,"endTime":2760.556,"body":"It doesn't look professional."},{"startTime":2760.566,"endTime":2761.516,"body":"Says the architect."},{"startTime":2761.556,"endTime":2763.386,"body":"Again, they don't know my customers."},{"startTime":2763.386,"endTime":2763.786,"body":"They don't."},{"startTime":2763.876,"endTime":2765.256,"body":"They don't know what I'm going for."},{"startTime":2765.256,"endTime":2767.076,"body":"They don't know and you can"},{"startTime":2765.256,"endTime":2767.076,"body":"say, Well, I mean, that's the"},{"startTime":2767.076,"endTime":2768.206,"body":"purpose of the stage gate."},{"startTime":2768.216,"endTime":2772.076,"body":"That's the purpose of the sign off, is"},{"startTime":2768.216,"endTime":2772.076,"body":"so that you can inform them as to the"},{"startTime":2772.276,"endTime":2777.156,"body":"yes, yes, and also, why do I need Why"},{"startTime":2772.276,"endTime":2777.156,"body":"are they not assigned to my program?"},{"startTime":2777.306,"endTime":2780.846,"body":"Well, you're in a large matrixed"},{"startTime":2777.306,"endTime":2780.846,"body":"organization and they just were told to"},{"startTime":2780.846,"endTime":2782.586,"body":"go do this particular stage gate review."},{"startTime":2782.626,"endTime":2784.646,"body":"They just show up unarmed, unprepared."},{"startTime":2784.646,"endTime":2785.816,"body":"I mean, this is what I've seen."},{"startTime":2785.966,"endTime":2789.746,"body":"And they will be blocking you by the"},{"startTime":2785.966,"endTime":2789.746,"body":"way, because they have huge egos."},{"startTime":2789.786,"endTime":2791.536,"body":"They're not going to"},{"startTime":2789.786,"endTime":2791.536,"body":"let anything slide by."},{"startTime":2791.576,"endTime":2792.016,"body":"Well, yeah."},{"startTime":2792.016,"endTime":2793.736,"body":"They decide that it shouldn't, right?"},{"startTime":2793.736,"endTime":2793.896,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2793.896,"endTime":2796.136,"body":"When I bring it up like that to them,"},{"startTime":2793.896,"endTime":2796.136,"body":"of course, they're definitely going"},{"startTime":2796.136,"endTime":2798.786,"body":"to be blocking me when I say like,"},{"startTime":2796.136,"endTime":2798.786,"body":"you're not even involved in my program."},{"startTime":2798.786,"endTime":2800.296,"body":"You have no idea how I measure metrics."},{"startTime":2800.326,"endTime":2801.886,"body":"You don't know professional Brian."},{"startTime":2801.936,"endTime":2803.626,"body":"Putting something out"},{"startTime":2801.936,"endTime":2803.626,"body":"there that doesn't work."},{"startTime":2803.776,"endTime":2807.086,"body":"Like I've heard your opinion and I"},{"startTime":2803.776,"endTime":2807.086,"body":"think your opinion is hot garbage"},{"startTime":2807.166,"endTime":2809.756,"body":"we could be in completely different"},{"startTime":2807.166,"endTime":2809.756,"body":"segments of the technology"},{"startTime":2810.096,"endTime":2811.856,"body":"adoption curve I'm dealing with."},{"startTime":2812.006,"endTime":2815.346,"body":"Early adopters, you're dealing"},{"startTime":2812.006,"endTime":2815.346,"body":"with laggards, and you're trying"},{"startTime":2815.346,"endTime":2819.906,"body":"to apply a philosophy, that works"},{"startTime":2815.346,"endTime":2819.906,"body":"with laggards, arguably works with"},{"startTime":2819.906,"endTime":2821.616,"body":"laggards, to the early adopters."},{"startTime":2821.926,"endTime":2826.416,"body":"The early adopters are so happy, or even"},{"startTime":2821.926,"endTime":2826.416,"body":"the let's even back up to the innovators."},{"startTime":2826.566,"endTime":2830.336,"body":"The innovators in the technology"},{"startTime":2826.566,"endTime":2830.336,"body":"adoption curve are so happy to have"},{"startTime":2830.486,"endTime":2832.536,"body":"thing that helps them with their problem."},{"startTime":2832.876,"endTime":2838.006,"body":"They, they could care less that it"},{"startTime":2832.876,"endTime":2838.006,"body":"doesn't crash every time, let alone that"},{"startTime":2838.016,"endTime":2841.826,"body":"they don't get another export option or"},{"startTime":2838.016,"endTime":2841.826,"body":"whatever even in the early majority like"},{"startTime":2841.836,"endTime":2846.646,"body":"the fact that they have two options in the"},{"startTime":2841.836,"endTime":2846.646,"body":"dropdown that work for saving their thing"},{"startTime":2846.796,"endTime":2851.336,"body":"off and then the main option, which they"},{"startTime":2846.796,"endTime":2851.336,"body":"really prefer, which is PDF doesn't work."},{"startTime":2851.486,"endTime":2852.506,"body":"They don't really care."},{"startTime":2852.586,"endTime":2853.486,"body":"They're still happy."},{"startTime":2853.606,"endTime":2855.186,"body":"That won't be a showstopper."},{"startTime":2855.226,"endTime":2856.876,"body":"But at least you can validate that then."},{"startTime":2856.886,"endTime":2857.356,"body":"You sure can."},{"startTime":2857.506,"endTime":2859.736,"body":"Which the architect doesn't"},{"startTime":2857.506,"endTime":2859.736,"body":"think about it that way."},{"startTime":2859.886,"endTime":2861.726,"body":"You know, they don't"},{"startTime":2859.886,"endTime":2861.726,"body":"think about it that way."},{"startTime":2861.786,"endTime":2865.486,"body":"We're validating this based on real"},{"startTime":2861.786,"endTime":2865.486,"body":"customer journey through the product."},{"startTime":2865.636,"endTime":2866.536,"body":"They don't think of it that way."},{"startTime":2866.846,"endTime":2869.246,"body":"I'm with you on the thinking that"},{"startTime":2866.846,"endTime":2869.246,"body":"they don't think of it that way."},{"startTime":2869.336,"endTime":2873.666,"body":"And by that way, my, my context"},{"startTime":2869.336,"endTime":2873.666,"body":"is from the perspective of what"},{"startTime":2873.666,"endTime":2878.106,"body":"helps user the most rather than"},{"startTime":2873.666,"endTime":2878.106,"body":"their own ego or their own views."},{"startTime":2878.106,"endTime":2879.156,"body":"Or their own opinions."},{"startTime":2879.306,"endTime":2883.381,"body":"When you build bureaucracy for the sake"},{"startTime":2879.306,"endTime":2883.381,"body":"of bureaucracy, and it has to justify"},{"startTime":2883.381,"endTime":2887.011,"body":"its own sake in their bureaucracy,"},{"startTime":2883.381,"endTime":2887.011,"body":"it can't get out of its own way."},{"startTime":2887.011,"endTime":2888.871,"body":"That's just not, it's not possible."},{"startTime":2888.901,"endTime":2889.591,"body":"It's horrible."},{"startTime":2889.591,"endTime":2891.271,"body":"It's, it's a spiral actually."},{"startTime":2891.271,"endTime":2891.791,"body":"So taking this."},{"startTime":2891.941,"endTime":2897.151,"body":"This example of the architect at the"},{"startTime":2891.941,"endTime":2897.151,"body":"review, chances are they need to be able"},{"startTime":2897.151,"endTime":2902.171,"body":"to go to their superiors and say, I did"},{"startTime":2897.151,"endTime":2902.171,"body":"four reviews today and you know, none of"},{"startTime":2902.171,"endTime":2903.871,"body":"them passed or one passed or whatever."},{"startTime":2903.871,"endTime":2906.001,"body":"And here's why aren't I"},{"startTime":2903.871,"endTime":2906.001,"body":"doing a great job, right?"},{"startTime":2906.151,"endTime":2910.206,"body":"By the same token, they can come to you"},{"startTime":2906.151,"endTime":2910.206,"body":"in your, in your review, they can say."},{"startTime":2910.356,"endTime":2911.036,"body":"PDF."},{"startTime":2911.286,"endTime":2912.316,"body":"Oh, wow."},{"startTime":2912.326,"endTime":2914.476,"body":"We're not going to spend"},{"startTime":2912.326,"endTime":2914.476,"body":"money on a PDF processor."},{"startTime":2914.506,"endTime":2915.596,"body":"We can build that in house."},{"startTime":2915.706,"endTime":2916.376,"body":"We're going to build that."},{"startTime":2916.466,"endTime":2917.336,"body":"And I know how to do it."},{"startTime":2917.336,"endTime":2918.066,"body":"I'm an architect."},{"startTime":2918.216,"endTime":2920.306,"body":"Now you're solutioning for"},{"startTime":2918.216,"endTime":2920.306,"body":"things you don't even know"},{"startTime":2920.306,"endTime":2921.576,"body":"the customer actually needs."},{"startTime":2921.676,"endTime":2922.506,"body":"I've seen that happen."},{"startTime":2922.716,"endTime":2923.036,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2923.056,"endTime":2924.716,"body":"I've seen exactly the"},{"startTime":2923.056,"endTime":2924.716,"body":"case you're talking about."},{"startTime":2924.716,"endTime":2925.826,"body":"Oh, I can build that."},{"startTime":2925.846,"endTime":2927.306,"body":"Yeah, you don't need to"},{"startTime":2925.846,"endTime":2927.306,"body":"spend money for that."},{"startTime":2927.596,"endTime":2930.816,"body":"Well, I mean, you can build it,"},{"startTime":2927.596,"endTime":2930.816,"body":"but also how many sprints are"},{"startTime":2930.816,"endTime":2932.216,"body":"you going to dedicate yourself?"},{"startTime":2932.386,"endTime":2936.836,"body":"To my program and who can I talk to"},{"startTime":2932.386,"endTime":2936.836,"body":"to make sure that that happens on"},{"startTime":2936.836,"endTime":2940.486,"body":"paper and that you don't get stopped"},{"startTime":2936.836,"endTime":2940.486,"body":"and interrupted Because my program is"},{"startTime":2940.486,"endTime":2945.066,"body":"about delivering value and I would be"},{"startTime":2940.486,"endTime":2945.066,"body":"willing to pay to have an uninterrupted"},{"startTime":2945.066,"endTime":2949.856,"body":"stream of value as opposed to trying"},{"startTime":2945.066,"endTime":2949.856,"body":"to You know jockey for position with"},{"startTime":2949.856,"endTime":2952.666,"body":"all the things that you're involved in"},{"startTime":2949.856,"endTime":2952.666,"body":"like i'm just not interested in that"},{"startTime":2952.866,"endTime":2958.056,"body":"I feel this isn't It is and is not"},{"startTime":2952.866,"endTime":2958.056,"body":"a great example because now I'm,"},{"startTime":2958.086,"endTime":2960.176,"body":"I'm like conflicting two worlds."},{"startTime":2960.176,"endTime":2962.676,"body":"I'm conflicting the Brian"},{"startTime":2960.176,"endTime":2962.676,"body":"product management world of."},{"startTime":2963.006,"endTime":2967.226,"body":"I want to move fast, I want to execute on"},{"startTime":2963.006,"endTime":2967.226,"body":"things, I want to try things and let the"},{"startTime":2967.226,"endTime":2971.766,"body":"customer be the judge and to, to, to, to"},{"startTime":2967.226,"endTime":2971.766,"body":"follow where the customer is leading me."},{"startTime":2971.916,"endTime":2975.996,"body":"And the other world with this solution"},{"startTime":2971.916,"endTime":2975.996,"body":"architect or whatever is, I want to"},{"startTime":2976.006,"endTime":2980.016,"body":"justify my place in the bureaucracy"},{"startTime":2976.006,"endTime":2980.016,"body":"and I want everyone to subjugate"},{"startTime":2980.026,"endTime":2984.786,"body":"their demands to, to, to me trying to"},{"startTime":2980.026,"endTime":2984.786,"body":"justify my role and to make me happy."},{"startTime":2984.846,"endTime":2987.456,"body":"Hey, it takes very"},{"startTime":2984.846,"endTime":2987.456,"body":"little to make me happy."},{"startTime":2987.606,"endTime":2992.166,"body":"Just tick the box, subjugate my"},{"startTime":2987.606,"endTime":2992.166,"body":"ego, make me happy, and then I"},{"startTime":2992.166,"endTime":2993.436,"body":"won't be a big blocker for you."},{"startTime":2993.436,"endTime":2998.306,"body":"But my challenge to that is, I don't,"},{"startTime":2993.436,"endTime":2998.306,"body":"none of that adds value to the customer."},{"startTime":2998.316,"endTime":2998.706,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2998.766,"endTime":3000.786,"body":"So really, just get rid of it."},{"startTime":3000.836,"endTime":3004.386,"body":"Maybe in our next big you know,"},{"startTime":3000.836,"endTime":3004.386,"body":"corporate drawdown, like maybe"},{"startTime":3004.386,"endTime":3005.696,"body":"we can get rid of that layer."},{"startTime":3005.746,"endTime":3007.966,"body":"And we can be a bit more lean."},{"startTime":3008.116,"endTime":3008.406,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3008.566,"endTime":3008.876,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3008.876,"endTime":3010.336,"body":"I mean, look, good luck with that."},{"startTime":3010.506,"endTime":3014.256,"body":"So definitely handoffs and"},{"startTime":3010.506,"endTime":3014.256,"body":"sign offs are a big, big drain."},{"startTime":3014.376,"endTime":3015.196,"body":"They're a big waste."},{"startTime":3015.206,"endTime":3015.886,"body":"They are."},{"startTime":3015.916,"endTime":3017.366,"body":"They're a complete waste, actually."},{"startTime":3017.516,"endTime":3021.226,"body":"To all the product managers out there, or"},{"startTime":3017.516,"endTime":3021.226,"body":"maybe scrum managers that are living in"},{"startTime":3021.226,"endTime":3025.546,"body":"this environment the customer value would"},{"startTime":3021.226,"endTime":3025.546,"body":"be the way to cut through this layer."},{"startTime":3025.786,"endTime":3029.336,"body":"I have like my customer value"},{"startTime":3025.786,"endTime":3029.336,"body":"and my direct customers."},{"startTime":3029.486,"endTime":3033.276,"body":"Like we have a process and it works"},{"startTime":3029.486,"endTime":3033.276,"body":"for us and the customers are happy with"},{"startTime":3033.276,"endTime":3036.696,"body":"it and let the customers speak on your"},{"startTime":3033.276,"endTime":3036.696,"body":"behalf and try to cut through this and"},{"startTime":3036.746,"endTime":3041.686,"body":"segment yourself off of the bureaucracy"},{"startTime":3036.746,"endTime":3041.686,"body":"and I even realize when I'm saying"},{"startTime":3041.686,"endTime":3043.976,"body":"this, nobody's going to like that."},{"startTime":3044.296,"endTime":3045.396,"body":"Nobody's going to be happy with it."},{"startTime":3045.406,"endTime":3049.846,"body":"You're going to be, you're going to be"},{"startTime":3045.406,"endTime":3049.846,"body":"the black sheep out here by yourself who's"},{"startTime":3049.906,"endTime":3055.046,"body":"carved an exception for yourself in the"},{"startTime":3049.906,"endTime":3055.046,"body":"process and everyone will hate you for it."},{"startTime":3055.196,"endTime":3055.726,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":3055.926,"endTime":3057.486,"body":"That is the right thing to do, right?"},{"startTime":3057.486,"endTime":3060.446,"body":"So the scrum masters, you're"},{"startTime":3057.486,"endTime":3060.446,"body":"there to coach the organization."},{"startTime":3060.456,"endTime":3061.836,"body":"That is the right thing to do."},{"startTime":3062.026,"endTime":3062.526,"body":"So do it."},{"startTime":3062.796,"endTime":3062.986,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3063.266,"endTime":3064.346,"body":"Feel empowered and do it."},{"startTime":3064.546,"endTime":3066.526,"body":"And also Keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":3067.356,"endTime":3068.706,"body":"Definitely keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":3068.776,"endTime":3071.656,"body":"And also, like and subscribe"},{"startTime":3068.776,"endTime":3071.656,"body":"to the Arguing Agile Podcast"},{"startTime":3071.686,"endTime":3074.856,"body":"because as a small channel, every"},{"startTime":3071.686,"endTime":3074.856,"body":"like and subscribe helps us."},{"startTime":3074.986,"endTime":3075.836,"body":"It helps us a lot."}]}