{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"Welcome to the arguing the Agile podcast"},{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"where enterprise business agility"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"coach Om Patel and me product manager"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"Brian Orlando debate the real world"},{"startTime":8.45,"endTime":10.54,"body":"challenges Agile professionals will face."},{"startTime":10.74,"endTime":12.329,"body":"We are not here to sell you anything."},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"We are here to argue about"},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"Agile so that you don't have to."},{"startTime":17.952,"endTime":19.632,"body":"It's a John Maxwell quote."},{"startTime":19.632,"endTime":23.042,"body":"Fail early, fail often, but"},{"startTime":19.632,"endTime":23.042,"body":"always fail forward about"},{"startTime":23.062,"endTime":25.092,"body":"iteration and , risking failure."},{"startTime":25.432,"endTime":29.982,"body":"In the terms of small controlled"},{"startTime":25.432,"endTime":29.982,"body":"experiments small, in terms of"},{"startTime":29.992,"endTime":32.902,"body":"impact . In the failing forward"},{"startTime":29.992,"endTime":32.902,"body":"book, he uses the term fail."},{"startTime":33.052,"endTime":35.281,"body":"I recently encountered a post that."},{"startTime":35.536,"endTime":40.146,"body":"That seemed to imply there could be"},{"startTime":35.536,"endTime":40.146,"body":"benefit in relabeling the term fail, or"},{"startTime":40.146,"endTime":43.756,"body":"failing fast, basically not using the"},{"startTime":40.146,"endTime":43.756,"body":"word failure, and saying learning fast."},{"startTime":43.756,"endTime":46.616,"body":"we're about to have a semantic"},{"startTime":43.756,"endTime":46.616,"body":"conversation I think, but"},{"startTime":46.766,"endTime":47.776,"body":"maybe there's value in it."},{"startTime":47.926,"endTime":51.346,"body":"Yeah, I did see it that way too,"},{"startTime":47.926,"endTime":51.346,"body":"it's just the relabeling, but you"},{"startTime":51.346,"endTime":55.756,"body":"know, the rationale there was I"},{"startTime":51.346,"endTime":55.756,"body":"guess Teams don't like to fail."},{"startTime":55.906,"endTime":59.596,"body":"So I struggle with that one"},{"startTime":55.906,"endTime":59.596,"body":"because a failure is a failure."},{"startTime":59.596,"endTime":63.236,"body":"You've somehow determined you"},{"startTime":59.596,"endTime":63.236,"body":"didn't quite make the mark so"},{"startTime":63.236,"endTime":65.077,"body":"we can say we learn from that."},{"startTime":65.116,"endTime":66.967,"body":"But what do you call that which failed?"},{"startTime":67.117,"endTime":69.407,"body":"Well, let's I mean, let's"},{"startTime":67.117,"endTime":69.407,"body":"think about the pros."},{"startTime":69.417,"endTime":71.177,"body":"In true arguing agile fashion."},{"startTime":71.227,"endTime":74.017,"body":"The first kind of point, and"},{"startTime":71.227,"endTime":74.017,"body":"the post that I read about this."},{"startTime":74.167,"endTime":77.827,"body":"The point that they were trying"},{"startTime":74.167,"endTime":77.827,"body":"to make was in the culture, the"},{"startTime":77.827,"endTime":80.726,"body":"word fail means a lot of different"},{"startTime":77.827,"endTime":80.726,"body":"things to a lot of different people."},{"startTime":80.727,"endTime":82.297,"body":"And if you have a company,"},{"startTime":80.727,"endTime":82.297,"body":"especially a large company,"},{"startTime":82.297,"endTime":83.856,"body":"those people come from all over."},{"startTime":84.172,"endTime":84.362,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":84.362,"endTime":86.932,"body":"Different cultures, different"},{"startTime":84.362,"endTime":86.932,"body":"companies, different company cultures,"},{"startTime":87.232,"endTime":92.392,"body":"and the word failure, maybe may"},{"startTime":87.232,"endTime":92.392,"body":"have strong negative connotations."},{"startTime":92.402,"endTime":96.412,"body":"So while you're saying fail fast,"},{"startTime":92.402,"endTime":96.412,"body":"what you're really trying to convey"},{"startTime":96.422,"endTime":99.812,"body":"is, Hey, come to your learning"},{"startTime":96.422,"endTime":99.812,"body":"and bring your learning back."},{"startTime":99.822,"endTime":101.822,"body":"And like, well, let's"},{"startTime":99.822,"endTime":101.822,"body":"all get over the failure."},{"startTime":101.822,"endTime":102.802,"body":"We it's a normal thing."},{"startTime":102.802,"endTime":109.562,"body":"However, some come, some, some companies,"},{"startTime":102.802,"endTime":109.562,"body":"I w I would even say some companies."},{"startTime":109.842,"endTime":113.902,"body":"Even when you fail, you try to hide"},{"startTime":109.842,"endTime":113.902,"body":"the evidence of the failure to try to"},{"startTime":114.192,"endTime":117.992,"body":"blame other departments or try to find"},{"startTime":114.192,"endTime":117.992,"body":"a scapegoat to blame them like that."},{"startTime":118.002,"endTime":120.932,"body":"That is, that is a, I don't know if"},{"startTime":118.002,"endTime":120.932,"body":"it's a majority, but that is a lot."},{"startTime":120.992,"endTime":123.431,"body":"It is a lot of companies that"},{"startTime":120.992,"endTime":123.431,"body":"cover up the failure, right?"},{"startTime":123.582,"endTime":126.871,"body":"I think companies like that really"},{"startTime":123.582,"endTime":126.871,"body":"portray the culture they have."},{"startTime":127.081,"endTime":132.021,"body":"When people are doing that, because"},{"startTime":127.081,"endTime":132.021,"body":"clearly failure is not tolerated or, or,"},{"startTime":132.071,"endTime":135.021,"body":"or not accepted widely in such companies."},{"startTime":135.051,"endTime":136.491,"body":"So people do all those things."},{"startTime":136.491,"endTime":139.691,"body":"You said our way from"},{"startTime":136.491,"endTime":139.691,"body":"accepting full on that."},{"startTime":139.691,"endTime":141.111,"body":"Yeah, we failed now."},{"startTime":141.161,"endTime":141.851,"body":"What do we do?"},{"startTime":141.851,"endTime":142.741,"body":"What do we learn from that?"},{"startTime":142.891,"endTime":144.252,"body":"So they, they avoid that."},{"startTime":144.281,"endTime":144.511,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":144.651,"endTime":147.191,"body":"There are cultures that"},{"startTime":144.651,"endTime":147.191,"body":"companies, I should say that"},{"startTime":147.191,"endTime":148.601,"body":"Don't look at it that way, right?"},{"startTime":148.631,"endTime":151.911,"body":"You say, well, take on, like you"},{"startTime":148.631,"endTime":151.911,"body":"said earlier at the outset, take"},{"startTime":151.911,"endTime":156.711,"body":"on a small endeavor and try it, and"},{"startTime":151.911,"endTime":156.711,"body":"if it fails, just learn from it."},{"startTime":156.861,"endTime":159.611,"body":"But the word failure is not"},{"startTime":156.861,"endTime":159.611,"body":"where everybody hangs their"},{"startTime":159.611,"endTime":160.931,"body":"hat in such cultures, right?"},{"startTime":160.931,"endTime":162.211,"body":"But the other ones, they do."},{"startTime":162.361,"endTime":165.161,"body":"And I think you were talking"},{"startTime":162.361,"endTime":165.161,"body":"about, Companies where people"},{"startTime":165.161,"endTime":166.061,"body":"come from all over the place."},{"startTime":166.101,"endTime":169.301,"body":"I mean, certain countries, you"},{"startTime":166.101,"endTime":169.301,"body":"can't use the word failure because"},{"startTime":169.301,"endTime":173.631,"body":"it's not really accepted in their"},{"startTime":169.301,"endTime":173.631,"body":"culture as it's okay to fail, right?"},{"startTime":173.831,"endTime":178.041,"body":"When I first read this article that"},{"startTime":173.831,"endTime":178.041,"body":"kind of prompted this podcast, I had"},{"startTime":178.041,"endTime":182.871,"body":"a strongly negative reaction to it"},{"startTime":178.041,"endTime":182.871,"body":"because my feeling is there's a lot"},{"startTime":182.871,"endTime":184.811,"body":"of blame based cultures out there."},{"startTime":184.961,"endTime":186.141,"body":"There are some cultures that."},{"startTime":186.426,"endTime":190.416,"body":"that really understand and"},{"startTime":186.426,"endTime":190.416,"body":"really embody this fail fast."},{"startTime":190.566,"endTime":193.286,"body":"Mentality, but they are"},{"startTime":190.566,"endTime":193.286,"body":"very few and far between."},{"startTime":193.316,"endTime":196.736,"body":"And even in those cultures, you still"},{"startTime":193.316,"endTime":196.736,"body":"have people that come from these"},{"startTime":196.896,"endTime":200.486,"body":"blame based they, they've just been"},{"startTime":196.896,"endTime":200.486,"body":"conditioned to operate this way to seek."},{"startTime":200.781,"endTime":202.421,"body":"to deflect blame."},{"startTime":202.431,"endTime":205.091,"body":"Like they don't run straight"},{"startTime":202.431,"endTime":205.091,"body":"into the house fire."},{"startTime":205.111,"endTime":208.581,"body":"They try to run away from it because"},{"startTime":205.111,"endTime":208.581,"body":"that's the way they've been conditioned."},{"startTime":208.581,"endTime":213.771,"body":"So I'm concerned about trying to cut out"},{"startTime":208.581,"endTime":213.771,"body":"the word failure for a better word because"},{"startTime":213.851,"endTime":215.851,"body":"I would rather us as an organization."},{"startTime":215.926,"endTime":221.956,"body":"Help like find signs that people are"},{"startTime":215.926,"endTime":221.956,"body":"conditioned against the word failure"},{"startTime":222.106,"endTime":226.306,"body":"and help them get over whatever"},{"startTime":222.106,"endTime":226.306,"body":"hangups that they have so that they"},{"startTime":226.306,"endTime":227.716,"body":"can get on board with our new culture."},{"startTime":227.716,"endTime":230.366,"body":"I guess that that starts"},{"startTime":227.716,"endTime":230.366,"body":"in hiring probably."},{"startTime":230.666,"endTime":230.906,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":230.906,"endTime":233.576,"body":"But I mean, really what you're looking"},{"startTime":230.906,"endTime":233.576,"body":"at is you're looking at through the"},{"startTime":233.576,"endTime":238.086,"body":"hiring process, trying to figure out"},{"startTime":233.576,"endTime":238.086,"body":"a way to find fixed mindset people and"},{"startTime":238.086,"endTime":244.096,"body":"see if this, this learning failing fast"},{"startTime":238.086,"endTime":244.096,"body":"and learning from it is part of their"},{"startTime":244.096,"endTime":248.096,"body":"fixed mindset that is more flexible"},{"startTime":244.096,"endTime":248.096,"body":"you know, or maybe not completely"},{"startTime":248.096,"endTime":250.816,"body":"fixed maybe this is one of those"},{"startTime":248.096,"endTime":250.816,"body":"things that they're malleable mindset."},{"startTime":250.836,"endTime":251.556,"body":"Maybe, maybe."},{"startTime":251.706,"endTime":251.996,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":251.996,"endTime":252.786,"body":"I think you're right."},{"startTime":252.786,"endTime":257.496,"body":"And people that are you know, likely"},{"startTime":252.786,"endTime":257.496,"body":"to, to look upon failure as a bad thing."},{"startTime":257.646,"endTime":261.686,"body":"They're probably not really"},{"startTime":257.646,"endTime":261.686,"body":"vested in the outcome in their"},{"startTime":261.726,"endTime":263.076,"body":"kind of on the periphery, right?"},{"startTime":263.226,"endTime":267.086,"body":"They're looking from the outside"},{"startTime":263.226,"endTime":267.086,"body":"so to speak or almost on it from"},{"startTime":267.086,"endTime":269.866,"body":"the outside Looking at that and"},{"startTime":267.086,"endTime":269.866,"body":"saying well that didn't work."},{"startTime":269.906,"endTime":271.036,"body":"That wasn't such a good idea"},{"startTime":271.186,"endTime":274.821,"body":"It's it's those people that then"},{"startTime":271.186,"endTime":274.821,"body":"Say to you, well, you failed"},{"startTime":274.831,"endTime":278.821,"body":"because you didn't plan things"},{"startTime":274.831,"endTime":278.821,"body":"properly or you know, you didn't get"},{"startTime":278.821,"endTime":280.951,"body":"endorsement from everybody, right?"},{"startTime":280.971,"endTime":282.401,"body":"Which is like here we here we are."},{"startTime":282.401,"endTime":285.901,"body":"Here's here's the fixed mindset coming out"},{"startTime":282.401,"endTime":285.901,"body":"instead of the growth mindset Here's the"},{"startTime":285.901,"endTime":289.791,"body":"fixed mindset coming out like the managers"},{"startTime":285.901,"endTime":289.791,"body":"could have fixed mindset that you know"},{"startTime":289.941,"endTime":293.496,"body":"So that now the team is not allowed to"},{"startTime":289.941,"endTime":293.496,"body":"fail because the managers Are enforcing"},{"startTime":293.496,"endTime":295.816,"body":"this, this rigid mindset on people"},{"startTime":295.976,"endTime":299.526,"body":"like the, if we're talking about"},{"startTime":295.976,"endTime":299.526,"body":"failure in an organization,"},{"startTime":299.786,"endTime":302.556,"body":"especially when you're trying to"},{"startTime":299.786,"endTime":302.556,"body":"have a team that's self managing."},{"startTime":302.706,"endTime":306.566,"body":"Like, like the team and the team members"},{"startTime":302.706,"endTime":306.566,"body":"are holding each other accountable"},{"startTime":306.576,"endTime":310.486,"body":"far, far more than any management is"},{"startTime":306.576,"endTime":310.486,"body":"ever going to hold them accountable."},{"startTime":310.656,"endTime":312.166,"body":"Like you're, you're direct coworkers."},{"startTime":312.446,"endTime":314.466,"body":"They're vested in the outcome, right?"},{"startTime":314.476,"endTime":315.326,"body":"So yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":315.336,"endTime":315.976,"body":"They're vested."},{"startTime":315.976,"endTime":318.776,"body":"So they're going to try to"},{"startTime":315.976,"endTime":318.776,"body":"look at that and say, yeah,"},{"startTime":318.776,"endTime":319.936,"body":"well that didn't work, right?"},{"startTime":319.936,"endTime":323.816,"body":"Let's get our heads together and figure"},{"startTime":319.936,"endTime":323.816,"body":"out why and we'll do something different."},{"startTime":323.816,"endTime":324.266,"body":"We'll pivot."},{"startTime":324.416,"endTime":325.316,"body":"So I agree with that."},{"startTime":325.346,"endTime":329.556,"body":"I think the team members are far"},{"startTime":325.346,"endTime":329.556,"body":"better at accepting the word failure."},{"startTime":329.706,"endTime":333.566,"body":"Then the managers and then in some"},{"startTime":329.706,"endTime":333.566,"body":"cultures, if the team fails and the"},{"startTime":333.566,"endTime":336.656,"body":"manager is deemed to have failed"},{"startTime":333.566,"endTime":336.656,"body":"because it's quote unquote their"},{"startTime":336.656,"endTime":340.136,"body":"team that failed and they don't"},{"startTime":336.656,"endTime":340.136,"body":"want to be seen as, as failures."},{"startTime":340.176,"endTime":343.896,"body":"So as the agile coach in the room,"},{"startTime":340.176,"endTime":343.896,"body":"this is an interesting one to say,"},{"startTime":343.896,"endTime":345.356,"body":"well, we're going to use learn fast."},{"startTime":345.356,"endTime":347.906,"body":"Now we're not going to say fail"},{"startTime":345.356,"endTime":347.906,"body":"anymore as a culture, right?"},{"startTime":347.926,"endTime":350.486,"body":"I don't know who decided this"},{"startTime":347.926,"endTime":350.486,"body":"organizationally, but somebody"},{"startTime":350.486,"endTime":353.376,"body":"has decided to push this, the"},{"startTime":350.486,"endTime":353.376,"body":"word police into our culture."},{"startTime":353.526,"endTime":356.256,"body":"Their arguing point obviously"},{"startTime":353.526,"endTime":356.256,"body":"they probably wouldn't"},{"startTime":356.256,"endTime":357.356,"body":"say arguing point, right?"},{"startTime":357.506,"endTime":362.666,"body":"But there, what they would be arguing is"},{"startTime":357.506,"endTime":362.666,"body":"the, the emotional impact of not having"},{"startTime":362.666,"endTime":367.316,"body":"this word in our culture is gonna allow"},{"startTime":362.666,"endTime":367.316,"body":"us to have more open conversations and"},{"startTime":367.316,"endTime":370.346,"body":"allow us to have more psychological safety"},{"startTime":367.316,"endTime":370.346,"body":"in the organization, because you know,"},{"startTime":370.346,"endTime":373.126,"body":"again, we don't have to walk around all"},{"startTime":370.346,"endTime":373.126,"body":"these hangups that different people have."},{"startTime":373.441,"endTime":376.231,"body":"We can all rally on this different term."},{"startTime":376.381,"endTime":377.431,"body":"Yeah, they can do that."},{"startTime":377.441,"endTime":380.611,"body":"But you know, when you have new"},{"startTime":377.441,"endTime":380.611,"body":"members, I mean, it's going to be"},{"startTime":380.611,"endTime":384.701,"body":"hard to maintain that, I think,"},{"startTime":380.611,"endTime":384.701,"body":"because when something doesn't work."},{"startTime":384.851,"endTime":386.531,"body":"What is that defined as, right?"},{"startTime":386.871,"endTime":389.301,"body":"It isn't defined as, well,"},{"startTime":386.871,"endTime":389.301,"body":"here's a learning opportunity."},{"startTime":389.551,"endTime":390.441,"body":"That comes later."},{"startTime":390.591,"endTime":392.261,"body":"Not much later, but that comes later."},{"startTime":392.551,"endTime":395.371,"body":"Initially, it's, well, here's"},{"startTime":392.551,"endTime":395.371,"body":"what we think we're going to do."},{"startTime":395.461,"endTime":397.481,"body":"And here's the outcome we"},{"startTime":395.461,"endTime":397.481,"body":"think we're going to get based"},{"startTime":397.481,"endTime":398.601,"body":"on the actions we're taking."},{"startTime":398.751,"endTime":400.271,"body":"We don't, we didn't get those outcomes."},{"startTime":400.561,"endTime":403.131,"body":"Well, you don't say, let's learn"},{"startTime":400.561,"endTime":403.131,"body":"from that at the beginning."},{"startTime":403.391,"endTime":404.401,"body":"Maybe you should, I don't know."},{"startTime":404.661,"endTime":406.021,"body":"But you don't typically do that."},{"startTime":406.051,"endTime":407.301,"body":"You typically evaluate it."},{"startTime":407.451,"endTime":409.881,"body":"And I think the trick is, who's"},{"startTime":407.451,"endTime":409.881,"body":"doing the evaluation, right?"},{"startTime":409.921,"endTime":411.591,"body":"As you're saying, if the"},{"startTime":409.921,"endTime":411.591,"body":"team is looking at it."},{"startTime":411.741,"endTime":415.601,"body":"Then they're going to be much closer"},{"startTime":411.741,"endTime":415.601,"body":"to the problem or problems and"},{"startTime":415.741,"endTime":419.711,"body":"their attitude might be well, it"},{"startTime":415.741,"endTime":419.711,"body":"wasn't a complete Failure, right?"},{"startTime":419.941,"endTime":422.521,"body":"Maybe some of it worked, but"},{"startTime":419.941,"endTime":422.521,"body":"this other bit didn't work."},{"startTime":422.541,"endTime":427.051,"body":"So maybe we can change that so whoever's"},{"startTime":422.541,"endTime":427.051,"body":"saying that I think is I think it's"},{"startTime":427.091,"endTime":430.631,"body":"it's doing a bit of a disservice"},{"startTime":427.091,"endTime":430.631,"body":"to not acknowledge that failure is"},{"startTime":430.631,"endTime":432.711,"body":"okay I mean are we gonna say that?"},{"startTime":432.961,"endTime":435.036,"body":"Who was it that invented the light bulb?"},{"startTime":435.186,"endTime":437.996,"body":"They failed 10, 000"},{"startTime":435.186,"endTime":437.996,"body":"times or something crazy."},{"startTime":437.996,"endTime":442.084,"body":"But also like after the, after"},{"startTime":437.996,"endTime":442.084,"body":"the podcast, we talked about that."},{"startTime":442.114,"endTime":445.154,"body":"I was looking into it more in a, it"},{"startTime":442.114,"endTime":445.154,"body":"actually might've been a bit of marketing"},{"startTime":445.244,"endTime":446.744,"body":"maybe they fail a hundred times."},{"startTime":446.764,"endTime":448.204,"body":"It doesn't matter, but that's still."},{"startTime":448.354,"endTime":449.694,"body":"Maybe the bulb flickered a bit."},{"startTime":449.844,"endTime":450.784,"body":"Let me learn from it."},{"startTime":450.784,"endTime":452.374,"body":"It was more like a team activity."},{"startTime":452.384,"endTime":454.374,"body":"It wasn't like one person,"},{"startTime":452.384,"endTime":454.374,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":454.454,"endTime":456.284,"body":"Okay, so they didn't blame"},{"startTime":454.454,"endTime":456.284,"body":"each other though, right?"},{"startTime":456.534,"endTime":462.974,"body":"Well, no, it was uh, it was diffused blame"},{"startTime":456.534,"endTime":462.974,"body":"and collective claiming of the success."},{"startTime":462.974,"endTime":463.634,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":463.784,"endTime":465.354,"body":"Which is messed up in its own way."},{"startTime":465.354,"endTime":467.664,"body":"Well, that's a whole different podcast."},{"startTime":467.684,"endTime":468.074,"body":"I like,"},{"startTime":468.184,"endTime":470.274,"body":"the point is you want to set objectives."},{"startTime":470.424,"endTime":473.554,"body":"And then you want to try"},{"startTime":470.424,"endTime":473.554,"body":"to achieve the objectives."},{"startTime":473.574,"endTime":476.294,"body":"And then when you do or don't, you"},{"startTime":473.574,"endTime":476.294,"body":"just want to call out like, Hey,"},{"startTime":476.344,"endTime":478.464,"body":"we did not achieve the objective."},{"startTime":478.664,"endTime":478.884,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":478.884,"endTime":481.184,"body":"That is very difficult to say in a word."},{"startTime":481.204,"endTime":482.834,"body":"And then an O word AO."},{"startTime":483.174,"endTime":483.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":483.594,"endTime":484.024,"body":"Where are you at?"},{"startTime":484.124,"endTime":484.654,"body":"Too much pressure."},{"startTime":484.704,"endTime":488.514,"body":"So I feel there is a lack of"},{"startTime":484.704,"endTime":488.514,"body":"directness here where we need to"},{"startTime":488.514,"endTime":489.894,"body":"talk directly talk about the failure."},{"startTime":489.944,"endTime":492.404,"body":"We need to embrace failure"},{"startTime":489.944,"endTime":492.404,"body":"is how I'd say it, right?"},{"startTime":492.444,"endTime":495.624,"body":"I think if we're just going to"},{"startTime":492.444,"endTime":495.624,"body":"say, Yeah, that you know, that's"},{"startTime":495.684,"endTime":496.974,"body":"another learning opportunity."},{"startTime":496.974,"endTime":500.204,"body":"Then I think we're missing out a"},{"startTime":496.974,"endTime":500.204,"body":"little piece of that, which is we're"},{"startTime":500.204,"endTime":505.344,"body":"treating the failure, that which failed"},{"startTime":500.204,"endTime":505.344,"body":"as a binary thing, it failed, right?"},{"startTime":505.624,"endTime":508.834,"body":"Which, depending on the objective,"},{"startTime":505.624,"endTime":508.834,"body":"It might be a good starting"},{"startTime":508.834,"endTime":510.124,"body":"point to say, that failed."},{"startTime":510.184,"endTime":513.894,"body":"Now look at it, did the whole thing"},{"startTime":510.184,"endTime":513.894,"body":"fail in its entirety or were there"},{"startTime":513.894,"endTime":515.754,"body":"pieces of it that were still good?"},{"startTime":515.784,"endTime":516.944,"body":"That were salvageable?"},{"startTime":517.094,"endTime":519.114,"body":"Then let's work on the"},{"startTime":517.094,"endTime":519.114,"body":"other pieces, right?"},{"startTime":519.264,"endTime":523.704,"body":"So, you can you can try to"},{"startTime":519.264,"endTime":523.704,"body":"kind of dodge the word, fail."},{"startTime":523.854,"endTime":526.634,"body":"But, I don't think that's doing"},{"startTime":523.854,"endTime":526.634,"body":"anybody any service, really."},{"startTime":526.854,"endTime":530.629,"body":"I I think of you can't do this piecemeal."},{"startTime":530.699,"endTime":534.479,"body":"That's another kind of pushback on this"},{"startTime":530.699,"endTime":534.479,"body":"Hey, we don't want to use the word fail."},{"startTime":534.749,"endTime":536.249,"body":"We want to say, what are your learnings?"},{"startTime":536.279,"endTime":543.799,"body":"Like another pushback on that is it is"},{"startTime":536.279,"endTime":543.799,"body":"the potential for it to get hijacked"},{"startTime":543.949,"endTime":547.519,"body":"because like if your teams, your teams"},{"startTime":543.949,"endTime":547.519,"body":"are doing this thing where they're saying"},{"startTime":547.519,"endTime":549.109,"body":"they don't want to use the word fail."},{"startTime":549.419,"endTime":552.999,"body":"If your middle management is not on board"},{"startTime":549.419,"endTime":552.999,"body":"with this, now you're, now you've got a"},{"startTime":553.009,"endTime":556.859,"body":"real shaky culture where the management"},{"startTime":553.009,"endTime":556.859,"body":"is like, well, I don't know, the teams"},{"startTime":556.859,"endTime":558.789,"body":"are doing all this holding hands."},{"startTime":558.939,"endTime":559.509,"body":"Stuff."},{"startTime":559.509,"endTime":562.659,"body":"And you know, they're not achieving"},{"startTime":559.509,"endTime":562.659,"body":"as fast as we think that they"},{"startTime":562.809,"endTime":565.029,"body":"they're not, they're not put, how"},{"startTime":562.809,"endTime":565.029,"body":"many times have you heard this one?"},{"startTime":565.029,"endTime":568.299,"body":"How they're not, they're not putting"},{"startTime":565.029,"endTime":568.299,"body":"out code as fast as releases as"},{"startTime":568.299,"endTime":569.889,"body":"fast as we think that they should."},{"startTime":569.894,"endTime":571.629,"body":"Like the managers as fast as we think."},{"startTime":571.634,"endTime":571.794,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":571.989,"endTime":575.679,"body":"That they should crack the whips more like"},{"startTime":571.989,"endTime":575.679,"body":"I, I, I see this as being like another."},{"startTime":575.829,"endTime":580.249,"body":"Thing to get upset at teams at, well all"},{"startTime":575.829,"endTime":580.249,"body":"you guys are trying to implement this,"},{"startTime":580.279,"endTime":583.489,"body":"these cultural changes, but also like I've"},{"startTime":580.279,"endTime":583.489,"body":"been exposed to a lot of cultural changes"},{"startTime":583.489,"endTime":586.999,"body":"that the teams tried to push up through"},{"startTime":583.489,"endTime":586.999,"body":"the organization and you know, management"},{"startTime":586.999,"endTime":590.709,"body":"kind of having a bad, a bad time with"},{"startTime":586.999,"endTime":590.709,"body":"that just because they're frustrated with."},{"startTime":592.019,"endTime":594.889,"body":"So if we actually wanted to do"},{"startTime":592.019,"endTime":594.889,"body":"this, what are all the elements"},{"startTime":594.889,"endTime":598.559,"body":"that had to be in place for us to"},{"startTime":594.889,"endTime":598.559,"body":"change, fail fast, to learn fast"},{"startTime":598.629,"endTime":602.129,"body":"in a culture thoroughly, basically,"},{"startTime":598.629,"endTime":602.129,"body":"like your teams have to accept it."},{"startTime":602.279,"endTime":604.099,"body":"Your leadership has to accept it."},{"startTime":604.109,"endTime":607.519,"body":"And then, and then the middle management,"},{"startTime":604.109,"endTime":607.519,"body":"if you know, again, assuming that you"},{"startTime":607.519,"endTime":610.979,"body":"have middle manager and then the middle"},{"startTime":607.519,"endTime":610.979,"body":"manager has to come along with both,"},{"startTime":611.299,"endTime":615.569,"body":"they have to fully support in their role"},{"startTime":611.299,"endTime":615.569,"body":"as a representative of management up"},{"startTime":615.629,"endTime":619.269,"body":"leadership management, upper management,"},{"startTime":615.629,"endTime":619.269,"body":"they have to come along and buy into it."},{"startTime":619.419,"endTime":620.789,"body":"They can't be holding the teams."},{"startTime":620.939,"endTime":623.699,"body":"Feet to the fire to say like, Hey,"},{"startTime":620.939,"endTime":623.699,"body":"we said we weren't going to use"},{"startTime":623.699,"endTime":626.549,"body":"the term fail, but you guys aren't"},{"startTime":623.699,"endTime":626.549,"body":"doing a good job and you're failing."},{"startTime":626.549,"endTime":629.789,"body":"And we, we, we, we think"},{"startTime":626.549,"endTime":629.789,"body":"you're just being complacent."},{"startTime":629.799,"endTime":631.659,"body":"That basically, that's what"},{"startTime":629.799,"endTime":631.659,"body":"middle management is thinking."},{"startTime":631.809,"endTime":635.419,"body":"We think by just not using the"},{"startTime":631.809,"endTime":635.419,"body":"word fail, you're actually being"},{"startTime":635.419,"endTime":638.229,"body":"complacent about hitting all your"},{"startTime":635.419,"endTime":638.229,"body":"deadlines and goals and whatnot."},{"startTime":638.379,"endTime":638.629,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":638.629,"endTime":639.179,"body":"I'd say yes."},{"startTime":639.389,"endTime":642.399,"body":"And you know, they may say, well,"},{"startTime":639.389,"endTime":642.399,"body":"you've been learning a lot lately."},{"startTime":642.539,"endTime":642.729,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":642.839,"endTime":643.159,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":643.159,"endTime":644.119,"body":"But what have you produced?"},{"startTime":644.269,"endTime":645.989,"body":"We don't pay you to learn, right?"},{"startTime":646.139,"endTime":647.479,"body":"We pay you to produce stuff."},{"startTime":647.479,"endTime":648.339,"body":"So what have you released?"},{"startTime":648.489,"endTime":652.279,"body":"And so in a way, what I'm saying is"},{"startTime":648.489,"endTime":652.279,"body":"that can also it can, it can't end well."},{"startTime":652.279,"endTime":655.119,"body":"It can be weaponized by people"},{"startTime":652.279,"endTime":655.119,"body":"because they misunderstand"},{"startTime":655.459,"endTime":657.169,"body":"the intent behind it, right?"},{"startTime":657.319,"endTime":657.609,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":657.699,"endTime":662.019,"body":"And again, when I first heard"},{"startTime":657.699,"endTime":662.019,"body":"about rebranding failure as"},{"startTime":662.019,"endTime":665.159,"body":"learning culturally, that was some"},{"startTime":662.019,"endTime":665.159,"body":"of the things I was thinking of."},{"startTime":665.309,"endTime":668.989,"body":"I was, I was immediately gravitating"},{"startTime":665.309,"endTime":668.989,"body":"to The the management saying hey, I"},{"startTime":668.989,"endTime":671.189,"body":"see you guys quote learning a lot."},{"startTime":671.199,"endTime":676.399,"body":"Ha ha ha kind of poking right, you know"},{"startTime":671.199,"endTime":676.399,"body":"at the teams and not, not committing to"},{"startTime":676.399,"endTime":679.299,"body":"the chain, like resisting the cultural"},{"startTime":676.399,"endTime":679.299,"body":"change to come along and like, well,"},{"startTime":679.299,"endTime":684.989,"body":"what does it mean to really support your"},{"startTime":679.299,"endTime":684.989,"body":"teams as they set goals and then do or"},{"startTime":684.989,"endTime":688.459,"body":"don't achieve the goals we're like, we're"},{"startTime":684.989,"endTime":688.459,"body":"in, we're in the 50 percent case where"},{"startTime":688.459,"endTime":689.979,"body":"they don't achieve the goals, right?"},{"startTime":690.129,"endTime":690.759,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":690.779,"endTime":691.939,"body":"But they don't achieve the goal."},{"startTime":692.089,"endTime":693.479,"body":"I think about this like sprint goals."},{"startTime":693.799,"endTime":696.269,"body":"That's like, let's, let's"},{"startTime":693.799,"endTime":696.269,"body":"use that as an example."},{"startTime":696.419,"endTime":699.419,"body":"I set a sprint goal for my team"},{"startTime":696.419,"endTime":699.419,"body":"when the sprint sprint begins."},{"startTime":699.619,"endTime":700.019,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":700.259,"endTime":702.509,"body":"I set one sprint goal one."},{"startTime":702.659,"endTime":704.079,"body":", I didn't always do that."},{"startTime":704.239,"endTime":706.119,"body":"I didn't always have the luxury"},{"startTime":704.239,"endTime":706.119,"body":"of having management that would"},{"startTime":706.129,"endTime":709.519,"body":"back me with my one Sprint Goal,"},{"startTime":706.129,"endTime":709.519,"body":"but the management understands."},{"startTime":709.669,"endTime":714.319,"body":"only ever one thing that is"},{"startTime":709.669,"endTime":714.319,"body":"top priority for the business."},{"startTime":714.619,"endTime":717.829,"body":"Hey, if we could do nothing else"},{"startTime":714.619,"endTime":717.829,"body":"with the team this sprint, it would"},{"startTime":717.829,"endTime":721.139,"body":"be please fill in the blank and,"},{"startTime":717.829,"endTime":721.139,"body":"and likely your, your management"},{"startTime":721.149,"endTime":722.349,"body":"or leadership, whatever you have."},{"startTime":722.639,"endTime":727.429,"body":"Like they probably can tell you I've"},{"startTime":722.639,"endTime":727.429,"body":"got to have this done  if forced to tell"},{"startTime":727.429,"endTime":731.369,"body":"you a top item, because most management"},{"startTime":727.429,"endTime":731.369,"body":"has a laundry list of like, Oh no, I"},{"startTime":731.369,"endTime":732.649,"body":"need to have a dozen things or whatever."},{"startTime":732.799,"endTime":737.899,"body":"I understand you have a lot of type items,"},{"startTime":732.799,"endTime":737.899,"body":"but if you could only pick one and you"},{"startTime":737.899,"endTime":740.099,"body":"could be guaranteed that it would be done."},{"startTime":740.249,"endTime":741.849,"body":"By this date could you pick one?"},{"startTime":741.919,"endTime":742.529,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":742.529,"endTime":743.449,"body":"I think every time."},{"startTime":743.479,"endTime":743.809,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":743.869,"endTime":748.079,"body":"Yes That's that's what this is talking"},{"startTime":743.869,"endTime":748.079,"body":"about the certainty that hey We were"},{"startTime":748.079,"endTime":751.589,"body":"failing at whatever much like what can"},{"startTime":748.079,"endTime":751.589,"body":"we do to succeed in this one thing?"},{"startTime":751.829,"endTime":754.899,"body":"Well, what is the very next goal"},{"startTime":751.829,"endTime":754.899,"body":"in front of us that we can set?"},{"startTime":755.049,"endTime":758.939,"body":"Let's set that and if we don't achieve"},{"startTime":755.049,"endTime":758.939,"body":"it Let's stop and let's talk about"},{"startTime":758.939,"endTime":760.339,"body":"why we didn't achieve it, right?"},{"startTime":760.489,"endTime":766.339,"body":"Find it very difficult to To, to have that"},{"startTime":760.489,"endTime":766.339,"body":"conversation, the very straight forward"},{"startTime":766.679,"endTime":770.039,"body":"conversation I just outlined, which was"},{"startTime":766.679,"endTime":770.039,"body":"one of my points that I wanted to, that"},{"startTime":770.039,"endTime":775.439,"body":"I wanted to outline of why I like the"},{"startTime":770.039,"endTime":775.439,"body":"term fail fast, directness and clarity."},{"startTime":775.589,"endTime":776.949,"body":"We failed."},{"startTime":777.099,"endTime":778.379,"body":"We set this goal for ourselves."},{"startTime":778.379,"endTime":780.179,"body":"Again, we're self, we're self managing."},{"startTime":780.229,"endTime":781.549,"body":"Nobody set this goal on our behalf."},{"startTime":781.699,"endTime":785.079,"body":"the company has goals, but we said,"},{"startTime":781.699,"endTime":785.079,"body":"this is what we can do to help"},{"startTime":785.079,"endTime":786.179,"body":"the company achieve their goals."},{"startTime":786.199,"endTime":789.189,"body":"We set that goal ourselves because"},{"startTime":786.199,"endTime":789.189,"body":"we're self managing the directness and"},{"startTime":789.189,"endTime":791.029,"body":"clarity to say, we did not hit this goal."},{"startTime":791.179,"endTime":793.089,"body":"These are the reasons why we"},{"startTime":791.179,"endTime":793.089,"body":"don't think we hit the goal."},{"startTime":793.199,"endTime":795.919,"body":"And we'll talk about it and we'll"},{"startTime":793.199,"endTime":795.919,"body":"say, this is what we can change."},{"startTime":796.239,"endTime":799.619,"body":"Like you can keep the word failure"},{"startTime":796.239,"endTime":799.619,"body":"in your nomenclature, have that"},{"startTime":799.619,"endTime":804.259,"body":"adult conversation, come away with"},{"startTime":799.619,"endTime":804.259,"body":"key takeaways to try and to adjust"},{"startTime":804.259,"endTime":805.499,"body":"your strategy, whatever you're doing."},{"startTime":805.649,"endTime":808.609,"body":"And I don't, and, and, and"},{"startTime":805.649,"endTime":808.609,"body":"keep your psychological safety."},{"startTime":808.649,"endTime":809.529,"body":"That's my challenge to this."},{"startTime":809.529,"endTime":810.609,"body":"I think you can keep on that."},{"startTime":810.789,"endTime":810.989,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":811.139,"endTime":812.069,"body":"I think that's true."},{"startTime":812.109,"endTime":815.209,"body":"And I also don't think there's just"},{"startTime":812.109,"endTime":815.209,"body":"black and white, like you either"},{"startTime":815.209,"endTime":817.759,"body":"use the word fail or learn, right?"},{"startTime":818.079,"endTime":822.499,"body":"I think you accept that the failure"},{"startTime":818.079,"endTime":822.499,"body":"happened and you immediately learn"},{"startTime":822.499,"endTime":824.289,"body":"from why it happened and then move on."},{"startTime":824.289,"endTime":824.529,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":824.679,"endTime":829.209,"body":"So I, I a lot of organizations are, are,"},{"startTime":824.679,"endTime":829.209,"body":"Okay, with the word fail, but if it's a"},{"startTime":829.219,"endTime":833.189,"body":"big failure, meaning that the endeavor"},{"startTime":829.219,"endTime":833.189,"body":"was big, they may have a bigger issue."},{"startTime":833.499,"endTime":836.759,"body":"So the teams need to understand that"},{"startTime":833.499,"endTime":836.759,"body":"as well and say, let's just take"},{"startTime":836.759,"endTime":840.399,"body":"on something small, layer on top"},{"startTime":836.759,"endTime":840.399,"body":"of that, this whole experimentation"},{"startTime":840.399,"endTime":842.189,"body":"mindset that the team should adopt."},{"startTime":842.339,"endTime":845.959,"body":"And it's pretty clear when you"},{"startTime":842.339,"endTime":845.959,"body":"do that there's cause and effect."},{"startTime":845.959,"endTime":847.519,"body":"So we're gonna say, here's our hypothesis."},{"startTime":847.539,"endTime":849.529,"body":"If we do this, we expect X to happen."},{"startTime":849.679,"endTime":851.879,"body":"And if X doesn't happen, then we look at."},{"startTime":852.029,"endTime":855.209,"body":"Why it's a try and change our"},{"startTime":852.029,"endTime":855.209,"body":"hypothesis and move on to the next bit."},{"startTime":855.359,"endTime":859.249,"body":"So failure isn't something that is,"},{"startTime":855.359,"endTime":859.249,"body":"unless you have a large endeavor, a"},{"startTime":859.249,"endTime":862.019,"body":"failure should be a very small slice."},{"startTime":862.169,"endTime":867.469,"body":"And even in that slice, not everything"},{"startTime":862.169,"endTime":867.469,"body":"would fail necessarily to piggyback"},{"startTime":867.469,"endTime":868.839,"body":"on your example of the sprint goal."},{"startTime":868.839,"endTime":872.199,"body":"Maybe the entire goal didn't fail, right?"},{"startTime":872.499,"endTime":874.279,"body":"Maybe you did quite a few things that."},{"startTime":874.429,"endTime":875.379,"body":"I'm still pretty good."},{"startTime":875.409,"endTime":876.799,"body":"He just didn't make it all the way."},{"startTime":876.949,"endTime":878.529,"body":"So why is that?"},{"startTime":878.579,"endTime":881.249,"body":"That's different from, well,"},{"startTime":878.579,"endTime":881.249,"body":"we didn't meet the spring goal."},{"startTime":881.319,"endTime":882.319,"body":"Let's say what happened?"},{"startTime":882.519,"endTime":883.409,"body":", nobody did anything."},{"startTime":883.679,"endTime":886.939,"body":"Well, if we're going up to product"},{"startTime":883.679,"endTime":886.939,"body":"management, I'm not communicating up to"},{"startTime":886.939,"endTime":891.299,"body":"the rest of the organization in like work"},{"startTime":886.939,"endTime":891.299,"body":"items in my sprint stories in my sprint,"},{"startTime":891.309,"endTime":894.669,"body":"that level, when I go to, when I go to"},{"startTime":891.309,"endTime":894.669,"body":"communicate with stakeholders and whatnot,"},{"startTime":894.669,"endTime":898.449,"body":"like I'm usually at the epic level,"},{"startTime":894.669,"endTime":898.449,"body":"so I'm reporting progress on the epic."},{"startTime":898.449,"endTime":901.569,"body":"So if we, if we didn't hit the sprint"},{"startTime":898.449,"endTime":901.569,"body":"goal, even if the sprint goal was"},{"startTime":901.909,"endTime":903.759,"body":"the sprint goal very rarely for me."},{"startTime":903.909,"endTime":907.319,"body":"If ever, I don't think it actually"},{"startTime":903.909,"endTime":907.319,"body":"ever is, but the sprint goal very"},{"startTime":907.319,"endTime":909.549,"body":"rarely is complete this bucket of work."},{"startTime":909.609,"endTime":911.099,"body":"That usually is not my sprint goals."},{"startTime":911.259,"endTime":914.929,"body":"My sprint goals usually are have"},{"startTime":911.259,"endTime":914.929,"body":"to do with delivering a certain"},{"startTime":914.949,"endTime":919.209,"body":"specific thing to a certain customer"},{"startTime":914.949,"endTime":919.209,"body":"or solving a specific problem."},{"startTime":919.359,"endTime":921.319,"body":"That usually those are my,"},{"startTime":919.359,"endTime":921.319,"body":"those are my sprint goals."},{"startTime":921.379,"endTime":926.399,"body":"The system that I use, which is Jira"},{"startTime":921.379,"endTime":926.399,"body":"uh, like that system uses stories"},{"startTime":926.749,"endTime":928.019,"body":"and stories roll up into epics."},{"startTime":928.169,"endTime":932.229,"body":"So usually it's it's a couple sprints"},{"startTime":928.169,"endTime":932.229,"body":"before we close an entire epic."},{"startTime":932.259,"endTime":934.729,"body":"And and that is what I'm"},{"startTime":932.259,"endTime":934.729,"body":"communicating with stakeholders."},{"startTime":934.739,"endTime":938.479,"body":"So as far as the stakeholders"},{"startTime":934.739,"endTime":938.479,"body":"go, they could care less if"},{"startTime":938.479,"endTime":939.469,"body":"we didn't hit the sprinkle."},{"startTime":939.619,"endTime":943.429,"body":"They really could care less unless my"},{"startTime":939.619,"endTime":943.429,"body":"again, unless I set the whole Sprint"},{"startTime":943.429,"endTime":947.299,"body":"goal around delivering something to"},{"startTime":943.429,"endTime":947.299,"body":"one customer, one specific customer."},{"startTime":947.449,"endTime":949.249,"body":"And even if we feel the sprinkle."},{"startTime":949.399,"endTime":951.899,"body":"We probably have something to"},{"startTime":949.399,"endTime":951.899,"body":"show at the end of the sprint"},{"startTime":951.909,"endTime":952.979,"body":"to that customer to say, hey."},{"startTime":953.249,"endTime":954.759,"body":"We're not delivering"},{"startTime":953.249,"endTime":954.759,"body":"you the full solution."},{"startTime":955.059,"endTime":955.719,"body":"This is what we had."},{"startTime":955.719,"endTime":957.119,"body":"We had to mock up some fake data."},{"startTime":957.389,"endTime":958.969,"body":"This is what it's going to"},{"startTime":957.389,"endTime":958.969,"body":"look like when it's finished."},{"startTime":959.089,"endTime":961.589,"body":"We're gonna need a couple more"},{"startTime":959.089,"endTime":961.589,"body":"days and that's the deliverable."},{"startTime":961.739,"endTime":965.839,"body":"Again I go back to this as the, the,"},{"startTime":961.739,"endTime":965.839,"body":"the key, like you want KPIs, you want"},{"startTime":965.839,"endTime":967.609,"body":"OKRs, you want whatever, like cool."},{"startTime":967.609,"endTime":968.229,"body":"Do all that."},{"startTime":968.289,"endTime":972.469,"body":"But all that fades away to the background."},{"startTime":972.469,"endTime":976.629,"body":"If you're just delivering , on a cadence"},{"startTime":972.469,"endTime":976.629,"body":"that is regular to the customer where"},{"startTime":976.629,"endTime":979.409,"body":"they can get their software, whatever"},{"startTime":976.629,"endTime":979.409,"body":"it is, or they can see the changes, they"},{"startTime":979.409,"endTime":981.309,"body":"can see that progress is being made."},{"startTime":981.459,"endTime":984.379,"body":"All the rest of those numbers"},{"startTime":981.459,"endTime":984.379,"body":"just kind of fade away."},{"startTime":984.459,"endTime":987.089,"body":"Yeah, epics have a much larger time frame."},{"startTime":987.089,"endTime":988.679,"body":"So you don't want to fail at an epic."},{"startTime":988.709,"endTime":990.809,"body":"It's okay to fail a few stories, right?"},{"startTime":990.849,"endTime":993.599,"body":"Because it's much smaller"},{"startTime":990.849,"endTime":993.599,"body":"as a piece of work."},{"startTime":993.839,"endTime":997.159,"body":"Which I feel could be that's a future"},{"startTime":993.839,"endTime":997.159,"body":"podcast that we should probably have."},{"startTime":997.309,"endTime":997.739,"body":"Yeah, I don't know."},{"startTime":997.789,"endTime":1001.449,"body":"I think it's a fairly quick podcast"},{"startTime":997.789,"endTime":1001.449,"body":"in the vein of one of our more"},{"startTime":1001.449,"endTime":1004.779,"body":"popular podcasts about splitting"},{"startTime":1001.449,"endTime":1004.779,"body":"stories or not splitting stories."},{"startTime":1004.779,"endTime":1005.109,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":1005.299,"endTime":1007.569,"body":"That's a different, that's a"},{"startTime":1005.299,"endTime":1007.569,"body":"big, no acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":1007.569,"endTime":1010.929,"body":"We had a, we had one about creating"},{"startTime":1007.569,"endTime":1010.929,"body":"stories and acceptance criteria about"},{"startTime":1010.929,"endTime":1012.379,"body":"the actual creation of the story."},{"startTime":1012.529,"endTime":1013.659,"body":"Which could be another podcast."},{"startTime":1013.659,"endTime":1016.789,"body":"Actually, we should have a, we have"},{"startTime":1013.659,"endTime":1016.789,"body":"to actually, we should have a, like"},{"startTime":1016.869,"endTime":1018.689,"body":"a couple of BA focused podcast."},{"startTime":1018.689,"endTime":1020.789,"body":"So like one is creating a good story."},{"startTime":1020.939,"endTime":1022.769,"body":"One is creating good epic."},{"startTime":1022.769,"endTime":1022.819,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1022.969,"endTime":1029.169,"body":"And one is when to cut the epic off"},{"startTime":1022.969,"endTime":1029.169,"body":"because epics, like in my world epics"},{"startTime":1029.339,"endTime":1034.649,"body":"again, I'm using Jira like epics,"},{"startTime":1029.339,"endTime":1034.649,"body":"I take to a certain point until we"},{"startTime":1034.649,"endTime":1037.049,"body":"deliver enough value to the customer."},{"startTime":1037.199,"endTime":1040.939,"body":"And then I will slash the epic and"},{"startTime":1037.199,"endTime":1040.939,"body":"say, we're done with this epic."},{"startTime":1041.089,"endTime":1044.339,"body":"I will cut off the epic, whatever"},{"startTime":1041.089,"endTime":1044.339,"body":"grand plans that we had for"},{"startTime":1044.339,"endTime":1045.519,"body":"other things we were going to do."},{"startTime":1045.669,"endTime":1046.819,"body":"They may still be valid."},{"startTime":1046.969,"endTime":1048.009,"body":"They may still be valid."},{"startTime":1048.029,"endTime":1051.459,"body":"I'll take them out of the epic I will"},{"startTime":1048.029,"endTime":1051.459,"body":"extract them and I'll put them in a"},{"startTime":1051.459,"endTime":1057.319,"body":"different epic to say like hey we we like"},{"startTime":1051.459,"endTime":1057.319,"body":"if you were like like we produce this"},{"startTime":1057.339,"endTime":1063.659,"body":"podcast like if an epic was like I want"},{"startTime":1057.339,"endTime":1063.659,"body":"to be able to take the the audio podcast"},{"startTime":1063.659,"endTime":1068.089,"body":"and automatically upload it with a script"},{"startTime":1063.659,"endTime":1068.089,"body":"and Have it upload all my transcripts"},{"startTime":1068.089,"endTime":1071.669,"body":"and everything so I don't need to go and"},{"startTime":1068.089,"endTime":1071.669,"body":"actually touch any specific social media"},{"startTime":1071.669,"endTime":1075.28,"body":"sites to post Like that might be an epic,"},{"startTime":1071.669,"endTime":1075.28,"body":"like automate, it's gonna take a while."},{"startTime":1075.285,"endTime":1076.029,"body":"The podcast, a couple."},{"startTime":1076.029,"endTime":1076.209,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1076.209,"endTime":1076.989,"body":"It's gonna be a lot of stuff."},{"startTime":1076.989,"endTime":1077.409,"body":"I mean, yeah."},{"startTime":1077.414,"endTime":1078.309,"body":"I gotta deal with YouTube."},{"startTime":1078.314,"endTime":1078.384,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1078.399,"endTime":1080.079,"body":"I gotta deal with a podcast from RSS."},{"startTime":1080.079,"endTime":1081.399,"body":"I gotta deal with transcripts."},{"startTime":1081.399,"endTime":1082.209,"body":"I gotta deal with files."},{"startTime":1082.214,"endTime":1082.404,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1082.409,"endTime":1082.629,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1082.629,"endTime":1084.189,"body":"There's a whole bunch"},{"startTime":1082.629,"endTime":1084.189,"body":"of individual stories."},{"startTime":1084.339,"endTime":1087.519,"body":"But I might decide once I upload"},{"startTime":1084.339,"endTime":1087.519,"body":"the thing to YouTube and once I get"},{"startTime":1087.519,"endTime":1090.129,"body":"the transcripts and all in place and"},{"startTime":1087.519,"endTime":1090.129,"body":"whatever, like that's good enough."},{"startTime":1090.159,"endTime":1090.819,"body":"Okay, cool."},{"startTime":1090.849,"endTime":1091.659,"body":"Done Enough."},{"startTime":1091.899,"endTime":1092.409,"body":"That's enough."},{"startTime":1092.439,"endTime":1092.619,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1092.769,"endTime":1095.949,"body":"And then I'll cut it off and say, okay,"},{"startTime":1092.769,"endTime":1095.949,"body":"well I wanted to post to Instagram"},{"startTime":1095.949,"endTime":1098.229,"body":"and I wanted to post to Facebook and"},{"startTime":1095.949,"endTime":1098.229,"body":"I wanted post all these other ones."},{"startTime":1098.379,"endTime":1098.709,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":1098.709,"endTime":1100.389,"body":"I'll open a new Epic and say, hey."},{"startTime":1100.539,"endTime":1104.429,"body":"Post to additional post the podcast to"},{"startTime":1100.539,"endTime":1104.429,"body":"additional media sites, so social media"},{"startTime":1104.429,"endTime":1106.169,"body":"sites, and that'll be in the new epic."},{"startTime":1106.319,"endTime":1110.859,"body":"Because as we go along and as we"},{"startTime":1106.319,"endTime":1110.859,"body":"set goals and as we experiment the"},{"startTime":1110.859,"endTime":1113.499,"body":"things that we do that contribute"},{"startTime":1110.859,"endTime":1113.499,"body":"to the epic to say we've met."},{"startTime":1113.809,"endTime":1117.189,"body":"The business outcome we were looking for"},{"startTime":1113.809,"endTime":1117.189,"body":"have a presence in the podcast realm,"},{"startTime":1117.449,"endTime":1120.779,"body":"have a presence on a at least one social"},{"startTime":1117.449,"endTime":1120.779,"body":"media platform, maybe more or whatever."},{"startTime":1121.049,"endTime":1122.879,"body":"Well, we're on YouTube"},{"startTime":1121.049,"endTime":1122.879,"body":"and we're on LinkedIn."},{"startTime":1122.929,"endTime":1123.309,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1123.399,"endTime":1124.039,"body":"That's good enough."},{"startTime":1124.039,"endTime":1125.399,"body":"Like cut the rest of them, move along."},{"startTime":1125.549,"endTime":1127.839,"body":"We'll look at the signal on these"},{"startTime":1125.549,"endTime":1127.839,"body":"platforms and see if we need it."},{"startTime":1127.989,"endTime":1129.979,"body":"Like I'll just cut, I'll"},{"startTime":1127.989,"endTime":1129.979,"body":"just arbitrarily cut it off."},{"startTime":1130.089,"endTime":1132.529,"body":"I'll go back and negotiate the"},{"startTime":1130.089,"endTime":1132.529,"body":"business and say, Hey, look, we're"},{"startTime":1132.529,"endTime":1134.969,"body":"done with a big swath of functionality."},{"startTime":1135.199,"endTime":1136.229,"body":"I think this is Epic's done."},{"startTime":1136.449,"endTime":1138.879,"body":"I'm going to spin it off and"},{"startTime":1136.449,"endTime":1138.879,"body":"create another Epic plus."},{"startTime":1139.029,"endTime":1140.599,"body":"Again, I'm talking the stakeholder level."},{"startTime":1140.599,"endTime":1143.069,"body":"I'm not talking to the team"},{"startTime":1140.599,"endTime":1143.069,"body":"level now to the stakeholders."},{"startTime":1143.409,"endTime":1146.119,"body":"They like to see regular progress,"},{"startTime":1143.409,"endTime":1146.119,"body":"just like team members, team members"},{"startTime":1146.119,"endTime":1149.069,"body":"like to know they're hitting goals and"},{"startTime":1146.119,"endTime":1149.069,"body":"accomplishing them and moving along."},{"startTime":1149.239,"endTime":1150.289,"body":"And when they don't hit goals."},{"startTime":1150.599,"endTime":1153.859,"body":"This is, this is, again, this is"},{"startTime":1150.599,"endTime":1153.859,"body":"my problem with relabeling failure."},{"startTime":1154.009,"endTime":1157.199,"body":"If you want, if you don't want to say"},{"startTime":1154.009,"endTime":1157.199,"body":"fail fast, you want to say learn fast."},{"startTime":1157.539,"endTime":1158.429,"body":"I mean, that's fine."},{"startTime":1158.639,"endTime":1161.739,"body":"But if you're saying, well,"},{"startTime":1158.639,"endTime":1161.739,"body":"we put something out there."},{"startTime":1161.889,"endTime":1163.719,"body":"The product manager talking to leadership."},{"startTime":1163.869,"endTime":1166.759,"body":"And talking them through how"},{"startTime":1163.869,"endTime":1166.759,"body":"we're succeeding and hitting"},{"startTime":1166.759,"endTime":1168.039,"body":"our goals and milestones."},{"startTime":1168.189,"endTime":1171.669,"body":"Leadership is a, is a crowd that wants"},{"startTime":1168.189,"endTime":1171.669,"body":"to directly engage with the failures."},{"startTime":1171.709,"endTime":1173.269,"body":"They want to dig into the failures."},{"startTime":1173.419,"endTime":1175.749,"body":"Leadership should not"},{"startTime":1173.419,"endTime":1175.749,"body":"be strangers to failure."},{"startTime":1175.859,"endTime":1176.139,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1176.139,"endTime":1177.549,"body":"They should be completely okay with it."},{"startTime":1177.579,"endTime":1180.849,"body":"And if they, if they really do have"},{"startTime":1177.579,"endTime":1180.849,"body":"a fixed mindset, and they're really"},{"startTime":1180.849,"endTime":1184.169,"body":"pushing back against failures, and"},{"startTime":1180.849,"endTime":1184.169,"body":"looking for someone to blame, and asking"},{"startTime":1184.219,"endTime":1187.379,"body":"really like, if you've ever been in"},{"startTime":1184.219,"endTime":1187.379,"body":"an awkward meeting with leadership,"},{"startTime":1187.379,"endTime":1190.699,"body":"where they're just tearing into"},{"startTime":1187.379,"endTime":1190.699,"body":"somebody for a failure, You should"},{"startTime":1190.709,"endTime":1192.619,"body":"really take a step back for a second."},{"startTime":1192.769,"endTime":1195.279,"body":"It'd be nice if you had a good personal"},{"startTime":1192.769,"endTime":1195.279,"body":"relationship with them, because you can"},{"startTime":1195.319,"endTime":1198.229,"body":"kind of take them off to the side and say,"},{"startTime":1195.319,"endTime":1198.229,"body":"you do realize that you're out of line."},{"startTime":1198.229,"endTime":1199.759,"body":"Like all these people are looking for you."},{"startTime":1199.939,"endTime":1201.499,"body":"They're looking to you for leadership."},{"startTime":1201.849,"endTime":1206.949,"body":"So you can't be, you can't be collapsing"},{"startTime":1201.849,"endTime":1206.949,"body":"when we have the most minor of failures."},{"startTime":1207.059,"endTime":1211.039,"body":"You have to be the one that is kind of"},{"startTime":1207.059,"endTime":1211.039,"body":"saying like, look, what did we learn here?"},{"startTime":1211.219,"endTime":1212.079,"body":"What are we going to do different?"},{"startTime":1212.229,"endTime":1212.919,"body":"How are we going to handle it?"},{"startTime":1212.939,"endTime":1214.479,"body":"Like, how are you going to handle this?"},{"startTime":1214.629,"endTime":1217.299,"body":"You know, you, you really have to be"},{"startTime":1214.629,"endTime":1217.299,"body":"the adult in the room at that point."},{"startTime":1217.309,"endTime":1221.869,"body":"Not, I've seen a lot of, a lot of"},{"startTime":1217.309,"endTime":1221.869,"body":"leaders cave in the face of what"},{"startTime":1221.869,"endTime":1224.169,"body":"I think are minor, minor hurdles."},{"startTime":1224.249,"endTime":1229.899,"body":"They cave and they usually press downhill"},{"startTime":1224.249,"endTime":1229.899,"body":"by saying, you guys, you need to own this."},{"startTime":1229.909,"endTime":1230.229,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1230.379,"endTime":1231.399,"body":"You, it's on you."},{"startTime":1231.409,"endTime":1232.679,"body":"You're accountable for this."},{"startTime":1232.829,"endTime":1236.199,"body":"And all of that contributes"},{"startTime":1232.829,"endTime":1236.199,"body":"to really kind of threatening"},{"startTime":1236.199,"endTime":1237.659,"body":"that, that psychological safety."},{"startTime":1237.659,"endTime":1240.129,"body":"So what's, what are people going"},{"startTime":1237.659,"endTime":1240.129,"body":"to do if that's the culture?"},{"startTime":1240.439,"endTime":1243.379,"body":"Typically that's in the command you"},{"startTime":1240.439,"endTime":1243.379,"body":"know, command and control culture."},{"startTime":1243.529,"endTime":1246.299,"body":"They're not going to take risks"},{"startTime":1243.529,"endTime":1246.299,"body":"because they might fail and then"},{"startTime":1246.569,"endTime":1248.709,"body":"the radio ship's going to come"},{"startTime":1246.569,"endTime":1248.709,"body":"down on them like a ton of bricks."},{"startTime":1248.859,"endTime":1253.579,"body":"So, unfortunately, avoiding the word"},{"startTime":1248.859,"endTime":1253.579,"body":"Failure and not talking about it and"},{"startTime":1253.579,"endTime":1255.469,"body":"just talking about learning, learning."},{"startTime":1255.619,"endTime":1259.699,"body":"People aren't necessarily start taking"},{"startTime":1255.619,"endTime":1259.699,"body":"risks even if they're calculated risks and"},{"startTime":1259.699,"endTime":1261.529,"body":"say, If we do this, we're gonna do this."},{"startTime":1261.549,"endTime":1265.509,"body":"And if that works you do four or five of"},{"startTime":1261.549,"endTime":1265.509,"body":"those things at a time typically, right?"},{"startTime":1265.519,"endTime":1265.999,"body":"Let's say."},{"startTime":1266.289,"endTime":1267.059,"body":"And three work."},{"startTime":1267.299,"endTime":1268.719,"body":"Well, has the whole thing failed?"},{"startTime":1268.829,"endTime":1269.819,"body":"I don't think it has."},{"startTime":1269.859,"endTime":1271.459,"body":"I think three things worked."},{"startTime":1271.779,"endTime":1273.759,"body":"So, okay, put those aside."},{"startTime":1274.019,"endTime":1275.439,"body":"Focus on the ones that didn't."},{"startTime":1275.659,"endTime":1276.879,"body":"Examine your assumptions."},{"startTime":1277.029,"endTime":1278.099,"body":"Change a few things."},{"startTime":1278.169,"endTime":1279.569,"body":"And prime the pump again."},{"startTime":1279.869,"endTime":1282.249,"body":"When I first read this post"},{"startTime":1279.869,"endTime":1282.249,"body":"about hey, we're not using"},{"startTime":1282.249,"endTime":1283.379,"body":"the term fail fast anymore."},{"startTime":1283.379,"endTime":1286.529,"body":"We're gonna use the term learn fast"},{"startTime":1283.379,"endTime":1286.529,"body":"We're not gonna use the term fail"},{"startTime":1286.679,"endTime":1288.099,"body":"has negative connotations or whatnot."},{"startTime":1288.129,"endTime":1290.649,"body":"I thought of exactly that scenario"},{"startTime":1290.949,"endTime":1296.059,"body":"I thought of being in a company With"},{"startTime":1290.949,"endTime":1296.059,"body":"leaders like this that were just,"},{"startTime":1296.089,"endTime":1300.469,"body":"incensed that you were trying to"},{"startTime":1296.089,"endTime":1300.469,"body":"avoid taking ownership of a failure"},{"startTime":1300.619,"endTime":1303.009,"body":"because, because they were not going"},{"startTime":1300.619,"endTime":1303.009,"body":"to take ownership of the failure."},{"startTime":1303.059,"endTime":1304.319,"body":"They, they were looking to blame."},{"startTime":1304.549,"endTime":1304.949,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1305.009,"endTime":1306.579,"body":"And,  if you tried to coach them."},{"startTime":1306.729,"endTime":1310.419,"body":"Hey, don't you think that, I don't know"},{"startTime":1306.729,"endTime":1310.419,"body":"what the other guy, what voice was that?"},{"startTime":1310.449,"endTime":1314.609,"body":"I can't like, there's not a, I"},{"startTime":1310.449,"endTime":1314.609,"body":"need a voice for like a sensitive,"},{"startTime":1314.609,"endTime":1316.259,"body":"a sensitive artist of my voice."},{"startTime":1316.259,"endTime":1321.009,"body":"Like if you were trying to coach them of"},{"startTime":1316.259,"endTime":1321.009,"body":"you know, Hey, don't you think it would"},{"startTime":1321.019,"endTime":1325.739,"body":"promote a growth mindset and, Promote"},{"startTime":1321.019,"endTime":1325.739,"body":"psychological safety if we don't use like,"},{"startTime":1325.759,"endTime":1330.829,"body":"oh man, that would like there's a surefire"},{"startTime":1325.759,"endTime":1330.829,"body":"way to Get put on the naughty list for"},{"startTime":1330.829,"endTime":1336.009,"body":"santa that that year and like that is not"},{"startTime":1330.829,"endTime":1336.009,"body":"the I would love I would love for someone"},{"startTime":1336.009,"endTime":1338.939,"body":"to interdict into that conversation"},{"startTime":1336.009,"endTime":1338.939,"body":"and when the leadership is tearing into"},{"startTime":1338.939,"endTime":1340.889,"body":"someone and obviously they're out of line,"},{"startTime":1340.889,"endTime":1344.279,"body":"I just i've been in too many"},{"startTime":1340.889,"endTime":1344.279,"body":"cultures and too many shops and seen"},{"startTime":1344.279,"endTime":1347.059,"body":"it to say like look these people"},{"startTime":1344.279,"endTime":1347.059,"body":"are stressed out  they're already"},{"startTime":1347.059,"endTime":1349.049,"body":"feeling insecure about the failure."},{"startTime":1349.199,"endTime":1351.749,"body":"Maybe you don't have good"},{"startTime":1349.199,"endTime":1351.749,"body":"goals in the first place."},{"startTime":1351.899,"endTime":1354.709,"body":"So you weren't even expecting"},{"startTime":1351.899,"endTime":1354.709,"body":"failure because maybe you're in this"},{"startTime":1355.049,"endTime":1359.159,"body":"ambiguous this, this place of, of"},{"startTime":1355.049,"endTime":1359.159,"body":"real deep learnings where you're"},{"startTime":1359.169,"endTime":1362.539,"body":"doing some new things with your"},{"startTime":1359.169,"endTime":1362.539,"body":"software and you're really not sure."},{"startTime":1362.689,"endTime":1366.239,"body":"And then all those fixed mindsets"},{"startTime":1362.689,"endTime":1366.239,"body":"are coming out now you really need"},{"startTime":1366.239,"endTime":1369.539,"body":"growth mindset people to Helm  those"},{"startTime":1366.239,"endTime":1369.539,"body":"new features, but all you have"},{"startTime":1369.539,"endTime":1370.989,"body":"is these fixed mindset people."},{"startTime":1371.189,"endTime":1375.059,"body":"The only way that works is if"},{"startTime":1371.189,"endTime":1375.059,"body":"the leadership themselves have a"},{"startTime":1375.059,"endTime":1378.779,"body":"growth mindset and they can say"},{"startTime":1375.059,"endTime":1378.779,"body":"You're learning, but learning what?"},{"startTime":1378.849,"endTime":1379.879,"body":"Oh, we failed here."},{"startTime":1379.889,"endTime":1380.629,"body":"Okay, that's fine."},{"startTime":1380.779,"endTime":1383.979,"body":"You know, that, that's okay with"},{"startTime":1380.779,"endTime":1383.979,"body":"them because they accept that"},{"startTime":1383.979,"endTime":1385.709,"body":"failure is part of progress."},{"startTime":1385.729,"endTime":1386.009,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1386.149,"endTime":1386.449,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1386.749,"endTime":1387.039,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1387.139,"endTime":1388.809,"body":"But that's not very prevalent."},{"startTime":1388.819,"endTime":1392.359,"body":"Well you know what else is not very"},{"startTime":1388.819,"endTime":1392.359,"body":"prevalent is leaning in to this"},{"startTime":1392.359,"endTime":1395.799,"body":"fail fast culture, leaning into the"},{"startTime":1392.359,"endTime":1395.799,"body":"word failure, leaning into failing"},{"startTime":1395.799,"endTime":1397.989,"body":"fast, the playbook of failing."},{"startTime":1398.139,"endTime":1399.789,"body":"should be you fail."},{"startTime":1399.939,"endTime":1402.289,"body":"You throw up the, you throw"},{"startTime":1399.939,"endTime":1402.289,"body":"up the flag that you fail."},{"startTime":1402.289,"endTime":1403.569,"body":"You're whatever you pull the cord, right?"},{"startTime":1403.569,"endTime":1404.249,"body":"That you failed."},{"startTime":1404.399,"endTime":1407.409,"body":"Management comes over and says,"},{"startTime":1404.399,"endTime":1407.409,"body":"okay, what they, I mean, they,"},{"startTime":1407.419,"endTime":1408.799,"body":"they do the whole, the, the Gemba."},{"startTime":1408.849,"endTime":1410.089,"body":"I can't remember the questions."},{"startTime":1410.089,"endTime":1412.109,"body":"Well, like what, what's the current state?"},{"startTime":1412.259,"endTime":1414.359,"body":"What's the, what is the"},{"startTime":1412.259,"endTime":1414.359,"body":"state that you expected?"},{"startTime":1414.449,"endTime":1414.669,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1414.839,"endTime":1415.899,"body":"You know, what did, what did you do?"},{"startTime":1415.899,"endTime":1417.389,"body":"What, how do you think we"},{"startTime":1415.899,"endTime":1417.389,"body":"can improve the situation?"},{"startTime":1417.389,"endTime":1418.139,"body":"They walk through the questions."},{"startTime":1418.139,"endTime":1420.309,"body":"I can't, I can't believe I can't"},{"startTime":1418.139,"endTime":1420.309,"body":"remember what those questions are."},{"startTime":1420.559,"endTime":1422.379,"body":"There's a framework for"},{"startTime":1420.559,"endTime":1422.379,"body":"that and I can't remember."},{"startTime":1422.529,"endTime":1423.989,"body":"You're not thinking about"},{"startTime":1422.529,"endTime":1423.989,"body":"the five wise are you?"},{"startTime":1424.079,"endTime":1425.289,"body":"No, it's not five wise."},{"startTime":1425.289,"endTime":1426.399,"body":"It's it's not kaizen."},{"startTime":1426.399,"endTime":1429.239,"body":"It's God, I can't I can't believe"},{"startTime":1426.399,"endTime":1429.239,"body":"I can't remember the well you"},{"startTime":1429.239,"endTime":1430.269,"body":"guys let us know in the post."},{"startTime":1430.279,"endTime":1431.609,"body":"Yeah Please let me know."},{"startTime":1431.619,"endTime":1432.489,"body":"This is ridiculous."},{"startTime":1432.489,"endTime":1435.659,"body":"I can't remember the name of"},{"startTime":1432.489,"endTime":1435.659,"body":"the the framework Unbelievable,"},{"startTime":1435.729,"endTime":1437.909,"body":"I think you have a"},{"startTime":1435.729,"endTime":1437.909,"body":"learning opportunity here."},{"startTime":1438.083,"endTime":1440.373,"body":"2, 000 years later"},{"startTime":1440.736,"endTime":1444.196,"body":"There may or may not be a hard"},{"startTime":1440.736,"endTime":1444.196,"body":"edit here that I come back from."},{"startTime":1444.386,"endTime":1446.556,"body":"But the point I was trying to make was."},{"startTime":1446.706,"endTime":1450.836,"body":"When you're avoiding leaning into failure,"},{"startTime":1446.706,"endTime":1450.836,"body":"when you're leaning away from the term"},{"startTime":1450.836,"endTime":1455.466,"body":"failure, like there's a certain amount"},{"startTime":1450.836,"endTime":1455.466,"body":"of risk taking that you as a leader want"},{"startTime":1455.466,"endTime":1457.806,"body":"your people feeling free to take on."},{"startTime":1458.046,"endTime":1458.636,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1458.696,"endTime":1460.986,"body":"And I guess smaller the"},{"startTime":1458.696,"endTime":1460.986,"body":"organization, the more."},{"startTime":1461.136,"endTime":1464.716,"body":"Risk you're willing to,"},{"startTime":1461.136,"endTime":1464.716,"body":"to empower your employees."},{"startTime":1464.866,"endTime":1467.766,"body":"I mean, again, if we're self managing,"},{"startTime":1464.866,"endTime":1467.766,"body":"it was so we're self organizing, self"},{"startTime":1467.766,"endTime":1471.686,"body":"managing, whatever the current version of"},{"startTime":1467.766,"endTime":1471.686,"body":"the scrum guide says whatever it is like,"},{"startTime":1471.836,"endTime":1475.826,"body":"We're running the business with our little"},{"startTime":1471.836,"endTime":1475.826,"body":"corner of the organization on our team."},{"startTime":1475.846,"endTime":1477.116,"body":"So we're taking risks."},{"startTime":1477.276,"endTime":1480.896,"body":"We're making, we're, we're making"},{"startTime":1477.276,"endTime":1480.896,"body":"bets and then we're cashing those"},{"startTime":1480.896,"endTime":1482.406,"body":"bets when they don't turn out right."},{"startTime":1482.416,"endTime":1485.266,"body":"Like we're paying for"},{"startTime":1482.416,"endTime":1485.266,"body":"it with our own time."},{"startTime":1485.366,"endTime":1485.836,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1485.896,"endTime":1490.511,"body":"So like, Hey man,  why are we not"},{"startTime":1485.896,"endTime":1490.511,"body":"allowed to really like Dig into this if"},{"startTime":1490.511,"endTime":1492.201,"body":"we're cashing the checks that we write."},{"startTime":1492.351,"endTime":1492.501,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1492.501,"endTime":1495.081,"body":"I think that the teams need to"},{"startTime":1492.501,"endTime":1495.081,"body":"feel like you said, they need"},{"startTime":1495.081,"endTime":1496.461,"body":"to feel ownership of that."},{"startTime":1496.461,"endTime":1496.711,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1496.911,"endTime":1501.061,"body":"And like you said, when things don't"},{"startTime":1496.911,"endTime":1501.061,"body":"work out and fail, they need to"},{"startTime":1501.201,"endTime":1504.401,"body":"feel the hurt because they should"},{"startTime":1501.201,"endTime":1504.401,"body":"look at it and say, what was the"},{"startTime":1504.411,"endTime":1506.451,"body":"cost we just incurred of this?"},{"startTime":1506.501,"endTime":1510.841,"body":"And what that does is it really"},{"startTime":1506.501,"endTime":1510.841,"body":"puts the the onus on them to"},{"startTime":1510.891,"endTime":1514.451,"body":"move away from there quickly with"},{"startTime":1510.891,"endTime":1514.451,"body":"whatever learnings they can grab."},{"startTime":1514.741,"endTime":1517.486,"body":"And Try it again, a different way, right?"},{"startTime":1517.636,"endTime":1521.336,"body":"But, yeah, there are so many companies"},{"startTime":1517.636,"endTime":1521.336,"body":"out there that you know, they just"},{"startTime":1521.336,"endTime":1525.356,"body":"say, well, let's just have this"},{"startTime":1521.336,"endTime":1525.356,"body":"culture of not blaming one another"},{"startTime":1525.686,"endTime":1527.956,"body":"and we'll just use the word learn."},{"startTime":1528.236,"endTime":1531.786,"body":"What's gonna happen there is, to"},{"startTime":1528.236,"endTime":1531.786,"body":"one of two extremes, I think, right?"},{"startTime":1531.786,"endTime":1536.856,"body":"One is, people aren't gonna take risks"},{"startTime":1531.786,"endTime":1536.856,"body":"because they're just floating, right?"},{"startTime":1537.006,"endTime":1538.886,"body":"Just going through"},{"startTime":1537.006,"endTime":1538.886,"body":"life, everything's good."},{"startTime":1539.036,"endTime":1540.716,"body":"That's one end of the spectrum."},{"startTime":1540.726,"endTime":1544.606,"body":"The other end of the spectrum is,"},{"startTime":1540.726,"endTime":1544.606,"body":"They will make reckless risks."},{"startTime":1544.836,"endTime":1548.566,"body":"They will take reckless gambles and"},{"startTime":1544.836,"endTime":1548.566,"body":"because they're not going to feel anything"},{"startTime":1548.616,"endTime":1549.716,"body":"or no one's going to say anything."},{"startTime":1549.716,"endTime":1552.236,"body":"Those are what we learned that"},{"startTime":1549.716,"endTime":1552.236,"body":"didn't work, but you know,"},{"startTime":1552.386,"endTime":1553.656,"body":"that, that is not their money."},{"startTime":1553.686,"endTime":1554.986,"body":"That is the other end of the spectrum."},{"startTime":1554.986,"endTime":1556.856,"body":"And I, I've seen teams like the, the."},{"startTime":1557.006,"endTime":1561.396,"body":"The, the experience I can bring to the"},{"startTime":1557.006,"endTime":1561.396,"body":"table here is I have seen teams that"},{"startTime":1561.396,"endTime":1564.506,"body":"go off for months and months and months"},{"startTime":1561.396,"endTime":1564.506,"body":"and never deliver anything like that."},{"startTime":1564.696,"endTime":1566.966,"body":"They're like, Oh, we're trying"},{"startTime":1564.696,"endTime":1566.966,"body":"this and it didn't work out."},{"startTime":1566.966,"endTime":1570.156,"body":"No, we're trying this and we don't"},{"startTime":1566.966,"endTime":1570.156,"body":"have anything to deliver because all"},{"startTime":1570.166,"endTime":1573.556,"body":"of our we tried this technology and"},{"startTime":1570.166,"endTime":1573.556,"body":"it didn't quite work and we tried this"},{"startTime":1573.556,"endTime":1575.396,"body":"and it was just too clunky to maintain."},{"startTime":1575.396,"endTime":1578.586,"body":"So we spun on those servers and we're"},{"startTime":1575.396,"endTime":1578.586,"body":"building our own is the other one."},{"startTime":1578.596,"endTime":1580.556,"body":"How long are you going to go about this?"},{"startTime":1580.556,"endTime":1581.176,"body":"Like you can't."},{"startTime":1581.326,"endTime":1584.806,"body":"I mean, I'm checking in product"},{"startTime":1581.326,"endTime":1584.806,"body":"wise, the product manager in"},{"startTime":1584.806,"endTime":1586.416,"body":"me, I'm checking in every week."},{"startTime":1586.756,"endTime":1591.976,"body":"I mean, every week is like extremely"},{"startTime":1586.756,"endTime":1591.976,"body":"fast compared to the team that goes"},{"startTime":1591.976,"endTime":1593.466,"body":"off for three months at a time."},{"startTime":1593.666,"endTime":1597.116,"body":"To figure out if they can, I don't know,"},{"startTime":1593.666,"endTime":1597.116,"body":"do something with technology or whatever."},{"startTime":1597.266,"endTime":1597.496,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1597.496,"endTime":1599.816,"body":"And I, I've seen that,"},{"startTime":1597.496,"endTime":1599.816,"body":"that particular a behavior."},{"startTime":1599.816,"endTime":1603.446,"body":"Well, where the team goes out and"},{"startTime":1599.816,"endTime":1603.446,"body":"experiments in quotes, different,"},{"startTime":1603.746,"endTime":1606.616,"body":"try out different tools and they say,"},{"startTime":1603.746,"endTime":1606.616,"body":"well, this was not quite good enough."},{"startTime":1606.616,"endTime":1608.426,"body":"This other one's better,"},{"startTime":1606.616,"endTime":1608.426,"body":"shinier, whatever."},{"startTime":1608.576,"endTime":1609.376,"body":"Try that one."},{"startTime":1609.376,"endTime":1611.146,"body":"And they go, Oh, it's"},{"startTime":1609.376,"endTime":1611.146,"body":"better than the last one."},{"startTime":1611.146,"endTime":1611.316,"body":"But."},{"startTime":1611.371,"endTime":1613.541,"body":"You know, there's this"},{"startTime":1611.371,"endTime":1613.541,"body":"new one just came out."},{"startTime":1613.541,"endTime":1615.531,"body":"Nobody's using it, but"},{"startTime":1613.541,"endTime":1615.531,"body":"it's it's much better."},{"startTime":1615.541,"endTime":1616.191,"body":"It smells better."},{"startTime":1616.191,"endTime":1616.961,"body":"It's more chocolatey."},{"startTime":1616.981,"endTime":1617.641,"body":"We're going to try that."},{"startTime":1617.791,"endTime":1618.511,"body":"And then they fail."},{"startTime":1618.561,"endTime":1621.621,"body":"And then what they'll do is,"},{"startTime":1618.561,"endTime":1621.621,"body":"and this is typical in teams"},{"startTime":1621.621,"endTime":1623.471,"body":"that are technologically driven."},{"startTime":1623.551,"endTime":1624.531,"body":"I mean, the leadership."},{"startTime":1624.861,"endTime":1627.301,"body":"Tech leads, architects,"},{"startTime":1624.861,"endTime":1627.301,"body":"they're really kind of pulling,"},{"startTime":1627.451,"endTime":1628.301,"body":"pulling their weight there."},{"startTime":1628.611,"endTime":1630.971,"body":"And they'll say, none of"},{"startTime":1628.611,"endTime":1630.971,"body":"these tools are good enough."},{"startTime":1631.091,"endTime":1634.561,"body":"So we're going to build our own now,"},{"startTime":1631.091,"endTime":1634.561,"body":"several more weeks go by, right?"},{"startTime":1634.591,"endTime":1636.001,"body":"And you're not delivering any value."},{"startTime":1636.101,"endTime":1640.261,"body":"And that is also the case where"},{"startTime":1636.101,"endTime":1640.261,"body":"in, in organizations where."},{"startTime":1640.411,"endTime":1644.101,"body":"Unlike what you just said, product"},{"startTime":1640.411,"endTime":1644.101,"body":"is just simply hands off and they're"},{"startTime":1644.101,"endTime":1647.951,"body":"waiting and waiting instead of going"},{"startTime":1644.101,"endTime":1647.951,"body":"in there every week or every X number"},{"startTime":1647.951,"endTime":1650.021,"body":"of days and saying, what's going on?"},{"startTime":1650.031,"endTime":1652.491,"body":"No, you can't, that's, that's too long."},{"startTime":1652.521,"endTime":1653.481,"body":"It is way too long."},{"startTime":1653.571,"endTime":1658.901,"body":"again, in the, in the ALM system I use,"},{"startTime":1653.571,"endTime":1658.901,"body":"I'm not going to do my spit take again,"},{"startTime":1660.101,"endTime":1664.071,"body":"it's Jira uh, in the ALM system I use"},{"startTime":1660.101,"endTime":1664.071,"body":"like I have a components field and"},{"startTime":1664.071,"endTime":1668.321,"body":"one of my components field is, Like my"},{"startTime":1664.071,"endTime":1668.321,"body":"team is doing something that's going to"},{"startTime":1668.321,"endTime":1670.551,"body":"enhance our capabilities and learnings."},{"startTime":1670.731,"endTime":1672.371,"body":"We're going to bring"},{"startTime":1670.731,"endTime":1672.371,"body":"new skill into the team."},{"startTime":1672.521,"endTime":1675.031,"body":"We're exploring something to bring"},{"startTime":1672.521,"endTime":1675.031,"body":"new skill into the team, right?"},{"startTime":1675.071,"endTime":1676.681,"body":"I have, I have a component for that."},{"startTime":1676.951,"endTime":1680.111,"body":"Just like I have a component for feature"},{"startTime":1676.951,"endTime":1680.111,"body":"development, which is capitalized work"},{"startTime":1680.111,"endTime":1683.941,"body":"was just like I have a component for like"},{"startTime":1680.111,"endTime":1683.941,"body":"basically backend infrastructure work."},{"startTime":1683.941,"endTime":1688.061,"body":"And I mean the spin up servers and deal"},{"startTime":1683.941,"endTime":1688.061,"body":"with stuff that's all not capitalizable."},{"startTime":1688.076,"endTime":1692.786,"body":"So I track, Hey, my team needs to go"},{"startTime":1688.076,"endTime":1692.786,"body":"out and learn some new technology in"},{"startTime":1692.786,"endTime":1696.896,"body":"order for them to do something in order"},{"startTime":1692.786,"endTime":1696.896,"body":"for them to do some new capability,"},{"startTime":1697.026,"endTime":1698.616,"body":"to perform some new capability."},{"startTime":1698.766,"endTime":1701.756,"body":"I track that, but I'm not"},{"startTime":1698.766,"endTime":1701.756,"body":"about three months like that."},{"startTime":1701.756,"endTime":1702.186,"body":"Ridiculous."},{"startTime":1702.236,"endTime":1703.476,"body":"Like a two, three days."},{"startTime":1703.506,"endTime":1705.976,"body":"And I'm asking as a product"},{"startTime":1703.506,"endTime":1705.976,"body":"manager aren't we done here?"},{"startTime":1705.996,"endTime":1709.236,"body":"Because I mean, how long does it take"},{"startTime":1705.996,"endTime":1709.236,"body":"when you're, again, my team members are"},{"startTime":1709.236,"endTime":1711.376,"body":"dedicated to the tasks that they do."},{"startTime":1711.386,"endTime":1714.796,"body":"And they take on, because again,"},{"startTime":1711.386,"endTime":1714.796,"body":"we're all self managing why would"},{"startTime":1714.796,"endTime":1718.986,"body":"you self manage and then take on"},{"startTime":1714.796,"endTime":1718.986,"body":"15 tasks all at the same time?"},{"startTime":1719.136,"endTime":1723.616,"body":"Well, because your teams are sourced"},{"startTime":1719.136,"endTime":1723.616,"body":"from different matrixed groups all"},{"startTime":1723.616,"endTime":1726.436,"body":"over the place, pressure and all"},{"startTime":1723.616,"endTime":1726.436,"body":"kinds of negatives, but again we're"},{"startTime":1726.436,"endTime":1730.906,"body":"going through this discussion of of"},{"startTime":1726.436,"endTime":1730.906,"body":"relabeling fail fast into learning fast."},{"startTime":1730.906,"endTime":1734.676,"body":"We're going through this discussion of"},{"startTime":1730.906,"endTime":1734.676,"body":"the pros and cons of this because , we're"},{"startTime":1734.676,"endTime":1736.366,"body":"trying to provide psychological safety."},{"startTime":1736.366,"endTime":1739.486,"body":"We're trying to provide an environment"},{"startTime":1736.366,"endTime":1739.486,"body":"that people understand, hey, . We"},{"startTime":1739.486,"endTime":1743.926,"body":"want to get through the failures"},{"startTime":1739.486,"endTime":1743.926,"body":"to the learnings ASAP and we don't"},{"startTime":1743.926,"endTime":1745.446,"body":"want to dwell on the failures."},{"startTime":1745.596,"endTime":1750.526,"body":"I just, . Everything we talked about so"},{"startTime":1745.596,"endTime":1750.526,"body":"far in this podcast is only pushed me more"},{"startTime":1750.576,"endTime":1753.156,"body":"towards we like, we need the word failure."},{"startTime":1753.446,"endTime":1754.626,"body":"We require the word failure."},{"startTime":1754.776,"endTime":1757.686,"body":"The Maxwell quote that we started"},{"startTime":1754.776,"endTime":1757.686,"body":"with fail early, fail often."},{"startTime":1757.836,"endTime":1760.776,"body":"But always fail forward that,"},{"startTime":1757.836,"endTime":1760.776,"body":"that people always interpret as"},{"startTime":1760.776,"endTime":1762.226,"body":"fail fast, fail often, fail fast."},{"startTime":1762.376,"endTime":1767.936,"body":"I like the word failure, and I like that"},{"startTime":1762.376,"endTime":1767.936,"body":"quote because if people are reacting"},{"startTime":1767.936,"endTime":1772.366,"body":"negatively to that quote, I immediately"},{"startTime":1767.936,"endTime":1772.366,"body":"am worried that they do not have a growth"},{"startTime":1772.376,"endTime":1776.446,"body":"mindset, and I'm immediately worried that"},{"startTime":1772.376,"endTime":1776.446,"body":"that I have people with fixed mindsets"},{"startTime":1776.446,"endTime":1779.896,"body":"in the organization that now are in"},{"startTime":1776.446,"endTime":1779.896,"body":"management or now are in leadership or"},{"startTime":1779.896,"endTime":1785.666,"body":"now are going are seeking to take control"},{"startTime":1779.896,"endTime":1785.666,"body":"of myself organization and they're going"},{"startTime":1785.666,"endTime":1788.846,"body":"to start setting goals for me rather"},{"startTime":1785.666,"endTime":1788.846,"body":"than us setting goals for the company."},{"startTime":1788.866,"endTime":1789.286,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1789.286,"endTime":1790.956,"body":"And the downward spiral has begun."},{"startTime":1791.226,"endTime":1794.896,"body":"So yeah, I agree because longterm that"},{"startTime":1791.226,"endTime":1794.896,"body":"cannot be good for the organization."},{"startTime":1795.096,"endTime":1795.376,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1795.486,"endTime":1796.336,"body":"I don't like that."},{"startTime":1796.336,"endTime":1798.926,"body":"I don't like, I don't like,"},{"startTime":1796.336,"endTime":1798.926,"body":"I like the directness."},{"startTime":1799.126,"endTime":1800.656,"body":"I like the clarity of failure."},{"startTime":1800.806,"endTime":1801.346,"body":"I like,"},{"startTime":1801.496,"endTime":1805.076,"body":"again, I like, I like training people"},{"startTime":1801.496,"endTime":1805.076,"body":"and if we think of this as a learning"},{"startTime":1805.076,"endTime":1809.416,"body":"and development opportunity, so if the,"},{"startTime":1805.076,"endTime":1809.416,"body":"if the culture wants to relabel failure"},{"startTime":1809.566,"endTime":1813.996,"body":"as learning opportunity or whatever"},{"startTime":1809.566,"endTime":1813.996,"body":"words that they choose, yeah, I don't"},{"startTime":1813.996,"endTime":1818.086,"body":"like that because I like training"},{"startTime":1813.996,"endTime":1818.086,"body":"everyone to say, no, let's say failure"},{"startTime":1818.236,"endTime":1822.366,"body":"and then let's have a playlist that we"},{"startTime":1818.236,"endTime":1822.366,"body":"kick off when we hear the word failure."},{"startTime":1822.366,"endTime":1822.706,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1822.956,"endTime":1824.626,"body":"What was the original objective?"},{"startTime":1824.776,"endTime":1827.546,"body":"What was the, how far did we"},{"startTime":1824.776,"endTime":1827.546,"body":"get towards that objective?"},{"startTime":1827.696,"endTime":1830.166,"body":"You know, and then I probably would"},{"startTime":1827.696,"endTime":1830.166,"body":"have a half a dozen questions."},{"startTime":1830.326,"endTime":1831.326,"body":"Well, what did you try?"},{"startTime":1831.566,"endTime":1833.216,"body":"Like, how often did you check back in?"},{"startTime":1833.266,"endTime":1837.716,"body":"Did you let somebody know after 24 hours"},{"startTime":1833.266,"endTime":1837.716,"body":"that you were not making any progress?"},{"startTime":1837.716,"endTime":1837.936,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1837.946,"endTime":1840.446,"body":"Did you try to bring somebody in to"},{"startTime":1837.946,"endTime":1840.446,"body":"look over your shoulder to help you?"},{"startTime":1840.446,"endTime":1842.456,"body":"You know, is this, is"},{"startTime":1840.446,"endTime":1842.456,"body":"this a personal thing?"},{"startTime":1842.466,"endTime":1844.536,"body":"Basically, did we fail"},{"startTime":1842.466,"endTime":1844.536,"body":"because someone was scared?"},{"startTime":1844.686,"endTime":1848.066,"body":"To ask for help right right what"},{"startTime":1844.686,"endTime":1848.066,"body":"yeah, and then collectively what"},{"startTime":1848.146,"endTime":1850.676,"body":"we have done different And what"},{"startTime":1848.146,"endTime":1850.676,"body":"can we do different yeah, and then"},{"startTime":1850.696,"endTime":1851.976,"body":"and then whatever the answer is"},{"startTime":1852.046,"endTime":1856.366,"body":"I mean like even the funny thing is"},{"startTime":1852.046,"endTime":1856.366,"body":"This is not a new concept even even"},{"startTime":1856.436,"endTime":1859.126,"body":"even when I was in the military you"},{"startTime":1856.436,"endTime":1859.126,"body":"would do after action reviews Sure,"},{"startTime":1859.126,"endTime":1862.616,"body":"even when I work with project managers"},{"startTime":1859.126,"endTime":1862.616,"body":"you would do What is the what is the"},{"startTime":1862.636,"endTime":1865.876,"body":"when the project ends the postmortem"},{"startTime":1862.636,"endTime":1865.876,"body":"postmortem you would do postmortems?"},{"startTime":1866.126,"endTime":1870.596,"body":"You mean so there is In the culture,"},{"startTime":1866.126,"endTime":1870.596,"body":"in the, in the zeitgeist, I don't know,"},{"startTime":1870.746,"endTime":1875.816,"body":"out there in the ether, there is this"},{"startTime":1870.746,"endTime":1875.816,"body":"concept of, Hey, regardless, pass, fail,"},{"startTime":1875.816,"endTime":1878.856,"body":"whatever it was, we got to inspect, we"},{"startTime":1875.816,"endTime":1878.856,"body":"got to figure out what we can do better."},{"startTime":1878.966,"endTime":1882.116,"body":"And now we got to institute some"},{"startTime":1878.966,"endTime":1882.116,"body":"changes and let's let's do it."},{"startTime":1882.286,"endTime":1885.376,"body":"It only works in companies"},{"startTime":1882.286,"endTime":1885.376,"body":"that have that culture though."},{"startTime":1885.406,"endTime":1888.596,"body":"So if you find yourself"},{"startTime":1885.406,"endTime":1888.596,"body":"in in a company where."},{"startTime":1888.746,"endTime":1890.266,"body":"Failure is frowned upon."},{"startTime":1890.456,"endTime":1892.036,"body":"Yeah, we have some advice for you."},{"startTime":1892.186,"endTime":1893.456,"body":"Keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":1893.606,"endTime":1896.532,"body":"I was going to say it's not good"},{"startTime":1893.606,"endTime":1896.532,"body":"advice, but it's, I mean, it is good."},{"startTime":1896.532,"endTime":1897.996,"body":"It is advice."},{"startTime":1898.146,"endTime":1900.106,"body":"It's every penny you didn't pay for that."},{"startTime":1900.256,"endTime":1901.956,"body":"We can both agree on that."},{"startTime":1902.106,"endTime":1904.836,"body":"Well, thank you for for"},{"startTime":1902.106,"endTime":1904.836,"body":"watching, listening and like,"},{"startTime":1904.836,"endTime":1906.446,"body":"and subscribe, ring that bell."}]}