{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"welcome to the arguing the Agile podcast"},{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"where enterprise business agility"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"coach Om Patel and me product manager"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"Brian Orlando debate the real world"},{"startTime":8.45,"endTime":10.54,"body":"challenges Agile professionals will face."},{"startTime":10.74,"endTime":12.329,"body":"We are not here to sell you anything."},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"We are here to argue about"},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"Agile so that you don't have to."},{"startTime":17.952,"endTime":22.091,"body":"Welcome to another episode of"},{"startTime":17.952,"endTime":22.091,"body":"arguing agile today on the podcast."},{"startTime":22.122,"endTime":25.962,"body":"We have Bob Cruz, who's the founder"},{"startTime":22.122,"endTime":25.962,"body":"and CEO of checkpoint technologies"},{"startTime":26.012,"endTime":27.422,"body":"and they do wonderful things."},{"startTime":27.442,"endTime":31.095,"body":"I'm going to let Bob talk about what"},{"startTime":27.442,"endTime":31.095,"body":"they do and how they can help you."},{"startTime":31.145,"endTime":33.815,"body":"So first off, Om and Brian,"},{"startTime":31.145,"endTime":33.815,"body":"thanks for having me."},{"startTime":34.305,"endTime":38.545,"body":"I am the, as Ohm mentioned founder"},{"startTime":34.305,"endTime":38.545,"body":"and CEO of Checkpoint Technologies,"},{"startTime":38.545,"endTime":40.665,"body":"co founder of Checkpoint Technologies."},{"startTime":40.925,"endTime":45.055,"body":"And we have been in business for over"},{"startTime":40.925,"endTime":45.055,"body":"21 years, headquartered in Florida."},{"startTime":45.57,"endTime":48.33,"body":"Have done business in 42 of the 50 states."},{"startTime":48.35,"endTime":53.09,"body":"And we started off from day"},{"startTime":48.35,"endTime":53.09,"body":"one with a focus on quality"},{"startTime":53.09,"endTime":54.81,"body":"assurance and software testing."},{"startTime":55.18,"endTime":60.02,"body":"So I've been in it for, Oh my gosh,"},{"startTime":55.18,"endTime":60.02,"body":"I'm going to say about 36 years"},{"startTime":60.02,"endTime":61.53,"body":"now, start off as a developer."},{"startTime":62.08,"endTime":67.7,"body":"And then at a certain point transitioned"},{"startTime":62.08,"endTime":67.7,"body":"into quality assurance and software"},{"startTime":67.7,"endTime":72.425,"body":"testing, especially test automation,"},{"startTime":67.7,"endTime":72.425,"body":"absolutely Fell in love with it."},{"startTime":72.905,"endTime":75.695,"body":"And then at a certain point,"},{"startTime":72.905,"endTime":75.695,"body":"just for a number of different"},{"startTime":75.695,"endTime":77.085,"body":"reasons, I said, you know what?"},{"startTime":77.685,"endTime":83.625,"body":"I think we've got a special type"},{"startTime":77.685,"endTime":83.625,"body":"of organization we can create that"},{"startTime":83.625,"endTime":88.1,"body":"would provide a lot of , value to"},{"startTime":83.625,"endTime":88.1,"body":"organizations When it comes to quality"},{"startTime":88.1,"endTime":91.49,"body":"assurance and software testing, or"},{"startTime":88.1,"endTime":91.49,"body":"when it comes to quality, because"},{"startTime":91.49,"endTime":93.2,"body":"that's something that's been lacking."},{"startTime":93.237,"endTime":94.017,"body":"Fantastic."},{"startTime":94.077,"endTime":95.577,"body":"Well, this has been a long time coming."},{"startTime":95.577,"endTime":98.237,"body":"We wanted to tackle this"},{"startTime":95.577,"endTime":98.237,"body":"topic, so here we are today."},{"startTime":98.237,"endTime":101.647,"body":"Yeah, And anyone who listens"},{"startTime":98.237,"endTime":101.647,"body":"to the podcast knows that qa"},{"startTime":101.647,"endTime":105.427,"body":"is how I got my start and here"},{"startTime":101.647,"endTime":105.427,"body":"I am now many many years later"},{"startTime":105.427,"endTime":107.447,"body":"several dog years later, that's okay."},{"startTime":107.447,"endTime":108.077,"body":"Don't don't worry."},{"startTime":108.077,"endTime":108.287,"body":"Bob."},{"startTime":108.297,"endTime":109.067,"body":"You're you're fine."},{"startTime":109.087,"endTime":110.767,"body":"You're only five dog years old"},{"startTime":110.767,"endTime":111.427,"body":"oh, I like that."},{"startTime":111.667,"endTime":112.067,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":112.277,"endTime":112.457,"body":"Like"},{"startTime":112.457,"endTime":117.447,"body":"anyway, here I am three dog dog ish"},{"startTime":112.457,"endTime":117.447,"body":"years later, and now I'm in product"},{"startTime":117.487,"endTime":121.697,"body":"management, but I feel like the special"},{"startTime":117.487,"endTime":121.697,"body":"sauce that I bring to product management"},{"startTime":122.137,"endTime":123.877,"body":"is the years that I spent in Q."},{"startTime":123.877,"endTime":124.217,"body":"A."},{"startTime":124.797,"endTime":126.297,"body":"Why don't we sprinkle sauce?"},{"startTime":126.297,"endTime":127.047,"body":"Isn't it liquid?"},{"startTime":127.047,"endTime":129.627,"body":"It should be like pouring"},{"startTime":127.047,"endTime":129.627,"body":"it on or drizzling it on."},{"startTime":129.837,"endTime":130.587,"body":"Anyway, it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":130.647,"endTime":130.947,"body":"Keep going."},{"startTime":130.947,"endTime":132.847,"body":"So it's super interesting to talk about Q."},{"startTime":132.847,"endTime":133.047,"body":"A."},{"startTime":133.057,"endTime":134.107,"body":"As a business model."},{"startTime":134.117,"endTime":135.457,"body":"That's not something I would expect."},{"startTime":135.582,"endTime":137.002,"body":"Uh, companies to focus on."},{"startTime":137.002,"endTime":143.452,"body":"Well, one of the things that that"},{"startTime":137.002,"endTime":143.452,"body":"motivated me was I was on an incredible"},{"startTime":143.452,"endTime":148.432,"body":"project with the FBI started off"},{"startTime":143.452,"endTime":148.432,"body":"there as a developer, team lead,"},{"startTime":148.752,"endTime":150.542,"body":"had a great team of developers."},{"startTime":150.902,"endTime":154.652,"body":"And then over time, They asked"},{"startTime":150.902,"endTime":154.652,"body":"me to transition over to the QA"},{"startTime":154.652,"endTime":156.182,"body":"and the software testing side."},{"startTime":156.802,"endTime":161.362,"body":"And one of the things that I realized was"},{"startTime":156.802,"endTime":161.362,"body":"that the quality assurance and software"},{"startTime":161.362,"endTime":167.792,"body":"testing, I compare it to chess, relatively"},{"startTime":161.362,"endTime":167.792,"body":"easy to learn, but difficult to master."},{"startTime":168.252,"endTime":172.812,"body":"And that's something that in my many"},{"startTime":168.252,"endTime":172.812,"body":"years of doing this, it is still"},{"startTime":172.842,"endTime":175.642,"body":"overlooked by organizations, that fact."},{"startTime":176.112,"endTime":178.212,"body":"So many executives."},{"startTime":178.947,"endTime":184.317,"body":"just believe that it is easy,"},{"startTime":178.947,"endTime":184.317,"body":"that it's not difficult."},{"startTime":184.647,"endTime":189.677,"body":"They don't understand the nuances"},{"startTime":184.647,"endTime":189.677,"body":"and the complexities in the process,"},{"startTime":189.687,"endTime":191.327,"body":"in the tools, in the people."},{"startTime":191.947,"endTime":198.147,"body":"I think a lot of times people think about"},{"startTime":191.947,"endTime":198.147,"body":"quality assurance as something you do"},{"startTime":198.167,"endTime":200.757,"body":"after the work of development is done."},{"startTime":200.787,"endTime":202.567,"body":"So kind of inspect for it."},{"startTime":203.092,"endTime":206.962,"body":"At the end, as opposed to making"},{"startTime":203.092,"endTime":206.962,"body":"it in throughout the process."},{"startTime":207.11,"endTime":211.04,"body":"and that's a great point because"},{"startTime":207.11,"endTime":211.04,"body":"when I started in my IT career"},{"startTime":211.05,"endTime":214.71,"body":"back in the eighties, it was all"},{"startTime":211.05,"endTime":214.71,"body":"about waterfall and, and what you"},{"startTime":214.71,"endTime":216.78,"body":"just said, Ohm, very, very true."},{"startTime":217.43,"endTime":223.07,"body":"But now with, with the popularity"},{"startTime":217.43,"endTime":223.07,"body":"of, of agile, which I love, but"},{"startTime":223.07,"endTime":225.5,"body":"I don't think it's right for"},{"startTime":223.07,"endTime":225.5,"body":"everything, but I do love it."},{"startTime":226.01,"endTime":231.95,"body":"That has made people realize you can"},{"startTime":226.01,"endTime":231.95,"body":"make it, Part of the development process."},{"startTime":232.34,"endTime":234.73,"body":"There's no real reason why you can't."},{"startTime":234.97,"endTime":240.84,"body":"Now there are some outliers there that"},{"startTime":234.97,"endTime":240.84,"body":"you have to respect and, and accommodate,"},{"startTime":241.0,"endTime":245.17,"body":"but that's relatively easy to do"},{"startTime":241.0,"endTime":245.17,"body":"as long as you recognize that fact."},{"startTime":245.72,"endTime":247.29,"body":"Well, welcome to arguing agile."},{"startTime":247.42,"endTime":247.8,"body":"Bob."},{"startTime":247.8,"endTime":250.65,"body":"What, what type of project would"},{"startTime":247.8,"endTime":250.65,"body":"be, there's probably people"},{"startTime":250.66,"endTime":252.85,"body":"screaming right now in our audience."},{"startTime":252.85,"endTime":256.64,"body":"What type of project would be"},{"startTime":252.85,"endTime":256.64,"body":"more suited toward waterfall?"},{"startTime":256.64,"endTime":260.65,"body":"Because again, This is the nice thing"},{"startTime":256.64,"endTime":260.65,"body":"about the arguing agile podcast format."},{"startTime":260.733,"endTime":265.393,"body":"Om brings a business agility and I"},{"startTime":260.733,"endTime":265.393,"body":"bring product management so we can"},{"startTime":265.433,"endTime":267.163,"body":"pretty much analyze it from both sides."},{"startTime":267.493,"endTime":271.073,"body":"I don't know if I would ever"},{"startTime":267.493,"endTime":271.073,"body":"prescribe something being, uh,"},{"startTime":271.433,"endTime":273.393,"body":"uh, optimized for waterfall."},{"startTime":274.673,"endTime":282.462,"body":"And a lot of individuals may argue that"},{"startTime":274.673,"endTime":282.462,"body":"certain types of applications, those that"},{"startTime":282.472,"endTime":288.522,"body":"have a high risk, where should there be a"},{"startTime":282.472,"endTime":288.522,"body":"failure, it could result in loss of life"},{"startTime":289.442,"endTime":295.142,"body":"that that might not be suited for agile,"},{"startTime":289.442,"endTime":295.142,"body":"but I'll go to something which is much"},{"startTime":295.142,"endTime":302.247,"body":"more common sense when we're talking about"},{"startTime":295.142,"endTime":302.247,"body":"Pure software development and applications"},{"startTime":302.867,"endTime":310.267,"body":"it, you can typically develop a module or"},{"startTime":302.867,"endTime":310.267,"body":"a simple piece of functionality in a very"},{"startTime":310.267,"endTime":313.097,"body":"rapid amount of time, but I also do work."},{"startTime":313.107,"endTime":316.777,"body":"We'd also do work with clients"},{"startTime":313.107,"endTime":316.777,"body":"that deal with embedded"},{"startTime":316.787,"endTime":319.097,"body":"systems embedded in hardware."},{"startTime":319.647,"endTime":325.207,"body":"That are going to take days,"},{"startTime":319.647,"endTime":325.207,"body":"sometimes weeks to develop, put"},{"startTime":325.207,"endTime":330.357,"body":"into the software, the mechanical"},{"startTime":325.207,"endTime":330.357,"body":"pieces that they need to be tested."},{"startTime":330.617,"endTime":334.967,"body":"That's not something that can"},{"startTime":330.617,"endTime":334.967,"body":"necessarily be done in hours or days."},{"startTime":335.587,"endTime":338.367,"body":"So that might be something where."},{"startTime":339.717,"endTime":347.647,"body":"If it doesn't remain waterfall, then I"},{"startTime":339.717,"endTime":347.647,"body":"might call it almost an extended agile."},{"startTime":348.257,"endTime":352.507,"body":"So, so that's something that I"},{"startTime":348.257,"endTime":352.507,"body":"would say might be the right road."},{"startTime":352.517,"endTime":356.037,"body":"The other thing is what"},{"startTime":352.517,"endTime":356.037,"body":"are your competitors doing?"},{"startTime":356.097,"endTime":361.247,"body":"And is there a competitive reason you need"},{"startTime":356.097,"endTime":361.247,"body":"to be able to keep up with them when it"},{"startTime":361.247,"endTime":364.417,"body":"comes to releasing the changes, into prod."},{"startTime":364.862,"endTime":369.042,"body":"Yeah, timing to, you know accommodate"},{"startTime":364.862,"endTime":369.042,"body":"market pressures is one thing."},{"startTime":369.122,"endTime":369.372,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":369.402,"endTime":373.492,"body":"But there's also  this idea about"},{"startTime":369.402,"endTime":373.492,"body":"what is the cost of failure?"},{"startTime":373.562,"endTime":373.832,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":373.882,"endTime":376.002,"body":"I mean, if you're going to"},{"startTime":373.882,"endTime":376.002,"body":"inspect for it at the end."},{"startTime":376.492,"endTime":380.002,"body":"Then that has an impact on when you"},{"startTime":376.492,"endTime":380.002,"body":"can finally fix it and go through"},{"startTime":380.002,"endTime":382.172,"body":"the cycles again and get to market."},{"startTime":382.862,"endTime":386.252,"body":"It's obviously going to be later, but what"},{"startTime":382.862,"endTime":386.252,"body":"is the, what is the real impact of that?"},{"startTime":386.262,"endTime":390.052,"body":"Not just the competitors eating"},{"startTime":386.262,"endTime":390.052,"body":"your lunch, but you've also got some"},{"startTime":390.052,"endTime":392.322,"body":"reputation to defend at that, right?"},{"startTime":392.332,"endTime":395.872,"body":"You're always late to market,"},{"startTime":392.332,"endTime":395.872,"body":"for example, or your software is."},{"startTime":396.862,"endTime":399.882,"body":"Subpar suboptimal when"},{"startTime":396.862,"endTime":399.882,"body":"it comes to quality."},{"startTime":400.175,"endTime":400.965,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":401.065,"endTime":407.255,"body":"You know, it's organizations and I love Om"},{"startTime":401.065,"endTime":407.255,"body":"that you mentioned cost of failure because"},{"startTime":407.265,"endTime":414.285,"body":"a lot of organizations do not take into"},{"startTime":407.265,"endTime":414.285,"body":"account cost of failure or risk avoidance."},{"startTime":414.905,"endTime":418.095,"body":"You know, what, what will"},{"startTime":414.905,"endTime":418.095,"body":"happen if there's a failure?"},{"startTime":418.095,"endTime":422.305,"body":"I feel we're now we're squarely"},{"startTime":418.095,"endTime":422.305,"body":"in the QA versus QC realm."},{"startTime":422.398,"endTime":422.928,"body":"We are."},{"startTime":422.928,"endTime":424.558,"body":"Yeah, I wanted to move"},{"startTime":424.558,"endTime":424.778,"body":"us."},{"startTime":425.048,"endTime":428.428,"body":"Well, if you have an idea that it's the"},{"startTime":425.048,"endTime":428.428,"body":"difference between, again, my background"},{"startTime":428.428,"endTime":433.688,"body":"is QA on the podcast,  between QA and"},{"startTime":428.428,"endTime":433.688,"body":"QC, it's, is the difference between being"},{"startTime":433.748,"endTime":440.078,"body":"agile versus waterfall, the idea that"},{"startTime":433.748,"endTime":440.078,"body":"I'm going to do All the coding and all"},{"startTime":440.078,"endTime":443.728,"body":"the development upfront, and then the"},{"startTime":440.078,"endTime":443.728,"body":"solution gets handed over to you and the"},{"startTime":443.728,"endTime":446.168,"body":"QA team, and then you check all the boxes."},{"startTime":446.558,"endTime":448.478,"body":"And that's, that's not really good enough."},{"startTime":448.478,"endTime":451.135,"body":"Well, I don't, I don't agree with that."},{"startTime":451.245,"endTime":451.495,"body":"Well,"},{"startTime":453.045,"endTime":453.225,"body":"you're"},{"startTime":453.225,"endTime":454.065,"body":"on the right podcast."},{"startTime":454.215,"endTime":454.915,"body":"What, what"},{"startTime":456.185,"endTime":457.725,"body":"it's all about arguing, right?"},{"startTime":457.735,"endTime":460.325,"body":"Arguing agile, arguing,"},{"startTime":457.735,"endTime":460.325,"body":"whatever we come up with."},{"startTime":460.735,"endTime":464.505,"body":",  whenever we've met and we talk about"},{"startTime":460.735,"endTime":464.505,"body":"what checkpoint technologies does,"},{"startTime":465.145,"endTime":468.495,"body":"you'll hear me use the term quality"},{"startTime":465.145,"endTime":468.495,"body":"assurance and software testing."},{"startTime":468.875,"endTime":469.465,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":469.665,"endTime":474.445,"body":"Because very few people, no"},{"startTime":469.665,"endTime":474.445,"body":"offense, but very few people"},{"startTime":474.445,"endTime":476.805,"body":"know what quality control is."},{"startTime":477.315,"endTime":479.525,"body":"Quality control is software testing."},{"startTime":480.105,"endTime":484.165,"body":"So rather than say we do quality"},{"startTime":480.105,"endTime":484.165,"body":"assurance and quality control, I"},{"startTime":484.165,"endTime":485.815,"body":"say we do quality assurance and."},{"startTime":486.14,"endTime":491.57,"body":"Software testing, quality assurance"},{"startTime":486.14,"endTime":491.57,"body":"is all about the activities"},{"startTime":491.59,"endTime":495.836,"body":"you do to prevent defects."},{"startTime":495.88,"endTime":501.8,"body":"Quality control is all about the"},{"startTime":495.88,"endTime":501.8,"body":"activities you do to detect defects"},{"startTime":501.8,"endTime":504.16,"body":"to find them and then correct them."},{"startTime":504.69,"endTime":510.27,"body":"So even with agile, it's interesting"},{"startTime":504.69,"endTime":510.27,"body":"the arguments you can get into as to"},{"startTime":510.27,"endTime":514.64,"body":"whether or not something is a quality"},{"startTime":510.27,"endTime":514.64,"body":"assurance or a quality control."},{"startTime":515.28,"endTime":521.03,"body":"Initiative or activity, but my, my"},{"startTime":515.28,"endTime":521.03,"body":"challenge, I tell people this, the"},{"startTime":521.03,"endTime":525.75,"body":"simple way to answer the question is,"},{"startTime":521.03,"endTime":525.75,"body":"will this improve your process so that"},{"startTime":525.76,"endTime":529.52,"body":"next time you might prevent a defect?"},{"startTime":529.52,"endTime":529.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":529.75,"endTime":532.98,"body":"That's where we enter on the podcast to"},{"startTime":529.75,"endTime":532.98,"body":"see so I, I have software development"},{"startTime":532.98,"endTime":536.54,"body":"teams, I have scrum teams, and we"},{"startTime":532.98,"endTime":536.54,"body":"have maybe a tester on the team."},{"startTime":536.89,"endTime":540.39,"body":"How much control, or visibility,"},{"startTime":536.89,"endTime":540.39,"body":"or inspection are you"},{"startTime":540.39,"endTime":543.14,"body":"allowed to do on the process?"},{"startTime":543.51,"endTime":547.29,"body":"When I was a product manager on contract,"},{"startTime":543.51,"endTime":547.29,"body":"and when I stopped being a QA manager,"},{"startTime":547.84,"endTime":552.57,"body":"I started doing product management for"},{"startTime":547.84,"endTime":552.57,"body":"the first time mainly in small companies."},{"startTime":552.88,"endTime":557.3,"body":"I would start realizing that the QA"},{"startTime":552.88,"endTime":557.3,"body":"people that were there were really only"},{"startTime":557.32,"endTime":563.93,"body":"ever asked to test and the process wasn't"},{"startTime":557.32,"endTime":563.93,"body":"really considered the bringing them out"},{"startTime":563.94,"endTime":568.57,"body":"to the, to the business wasn't really"},{"startTime":563.94,"endTime":568.57,"body":"considered and again, that seemed to"},{"startTime":568.57,"endTime":573.08,"body":"run counter to a lot of my experience"},{"startTime":568.57,"endTime":573.08,"body":"because a lot of my experience led me to"},{"startTime":573.08,"endTime":578.05,"body":"believe that the process is what sabotages"},{"startTime":573.08,"endTime":578.05,"body":"quality a lot, the system, the process"},{"startTime":578.05,"endTime":582.78,"body":"is what, what sabotages quality a lot of"},{"startTime":578.05,"endTime":582.78,"body":"the time, you know, in addition to silly"},{"startTime":582.79,"endTime":586.44,"body":"things like you have to have it out by a"},{"startTime":582.79,"endTime":586.44,"body":"certain date or, you know, by the end of"},{"startTime":586.44,"endTime":591.83,"body":"a two week sprint or other things like"},{"startTime":586.44,"endTime":591.83,"body":"we, we spend nine out of our 10 days of"},{"startTime":591.83,"endTime":595.14,"body":"the sprint coding and then we hand it"},{"startTime":591.83,"endTime":595.14,"body":"over to the tester on the last day of the"},{"startTime":595.14,"endTime":597.08,"body":"sprint and we,  send it over the fence."},{"startTime":597.2,"endTime":597.42,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":597.42,"endTime":600.49,"body":"Or worse yet, we'll, we'll code"},{"startTime":597.42,"endTime":600.49,"body":"and we'll test next sprint."},{"startTime":601.37,"endTime":602.27,"body":"I've seen that too."},{"startTime":602.55,"endTime":606.89,"body":"But what you're, both of you are"},{"startTime":602.55,"endTime":606.89,"body":"highlighting is essentially the ethos of."},{"startTime":607.465,"endTime":612.475,"body":"Inspecting for quality at the end, when I"},{"startTime":607.465,"endTime":612.475,"body":"say at the end, I mean, after development"},{"startTime":612.475,"endTime":618.095,"body":"is done as opposed to integrating"},{"startTime":612.475,"endTime":618.095,"body":"quality throughout the process so that"},{"startTime":618.395,"endTime":623.295,"body":"you're assuring quality, not inspecting"},{"startTime":618.395,"endTime":623.295,"body":"for it and quote unquote, controlling,"},{"startTime":623.409,"endTime":629.939,"body":"but there's no reason why your developers"},{"startTime":623.409,"endTime":629.939,"body":"and your testers cannot be collaborative"},{"startTime":629.999,"endTime":632.479,"body":"during the process from day one."},{"startTime":632.479,"endTime":633.909,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":634.229,"endTime":640.299,"body":"One of the projects that I was on early"},{"startTime":634.229,"endTime":640.299,"body":"on in my career introduced me and, and"},{"startTime":640.299,"endTime":647.829,"body":"made me recognize the value and importance"},{"startTime":640.299,"endTime":647.829,"body":"of a peer reviews and walkthroughs and"},{"startTime":647.859,"endTime":653.409,"body":"in, in the peer reviews we would have,"},{"startTime":647.859,"endTime":653.409,"body":"testers would actually be part of that"},{"startTime":653.649,"endTime":658.059,"body":"from day one after the, the requirements."},{"startTime":658.484,"endTime":662.844,"body":"Were defined so that testers could"},{"startTime":658.484,"endTime":662.844,"body":"start asking themselves, huh?"},{"startTime":663.294,"endTime":669.414,"body":"How am I going to test that , and they"},{"startTime":663.294,"endTime":669.414,"body":"could provide input as to whether or"},{"startTime":669.414,"endTime":676.654,"body":"not they felt as though Eventually the"},{"startTime":669.414,"endTime":676.654,"body":"requirement was redefined or interpreted"},{"startTime":676.654,"endTime":681.459,"body":"correctly by the Specifications team"},{"startTime":676.654,"endTime":681.459,"body":"and by the development team that"},{"startTime":681.459,"endTime":687.459,"body":"is a huge benefit when testers are"},{"startTime":681.459,"endTime":687.459,"body":"included from day one, even, even"},{"startTime":687.459,"endTime":692.549,"body":"if you're in an organization that"},{"startTime":687.459,"endTime":692.549,"body":"is still utilizing a waterfall SDLC."},{"startTime":692.549,"endTime":694.239,"body":"I was super lucky early in my career."},{"startTime":694.269,"endTime":697.879,"body":"All of the QA people at that shop were"},{"startTime":694.269,"endTime":697.879,"body":"also considered business analysts."},{"startTime":697.879,"endTime":702.309,"body":"So if you think about the case"},{"startTime":697.879,"endTime":702.309,"body":"where you just outlined where , what"},{"startTime":702.309,"endTime":704.979,"body":"are the QA people doing the whole"},{"startTime":702.309,"endTime":704.979,"body":"time developers are developing?"},{"startTime":705.259,"endTime":706.359,"body":"Oh, they're not doing anything."},{"startTime":706.569,"endTime":712.279,"body":"Well, I'm not saying that's a good"},{"startTime":706.569,"endTime":712.279,"body":"attitude to have, but at my shop,"},{"startTime":712.289,"endTime":716.109,"body":"because they did have that attitude,"},{"startTime":712.289,"endTime":716.109,"body":"they had the ability to put me in"},{"startTime":716.119,"endTime":720.759,"body":"front of the business, in front of the"},{"startTime":716.119,"endTime":720.759,"body":"development team, to do business analysis."},{"startTime":721.329,"endTime":725.649,"body":"Their answer was, was all the QA people"},{"startTime":721.329,"endTime":725.649,"body":"will help to quote right requirements."},{"startTime":725.959,"endTime":729.809,"body":"And then because I got that early,"},{"startTime":725.959,"endTime":729.809,"body":"early BA skills, I was very, very lucky."},{"startTime":730.429,"endTime":732.019,"body":"But otherwise that would have"},{"startTime":730.429,"endTime":732.019,"body":"been somebody else's job."},{"startTime":732.019,"endTime":734.499,"body":"That would have been a BA's"},{"startTime":732.019,"endTime":734.499,"body":"job or, or somebody else"},{"startTime":734.499,"endTime":738.639,"body":"well, what you just described is better"},{"startTime":734.499,"endTime":738.639,"body":"than the former description, right?"},{"startTime":738.639,"endTime":741.889,"body":"Which is testers only show up after"},{"startTime":738.639,"endTime":741.889,"body":"development's done, and they have"},{"startTime":741.909,"endTime":743.469,"body":"things thrown at them over the wall."},{"startTime":743.929,"endTime":744.959,"body":"I can share an anecdote."},{"startTime":744.969,"endTime":749.464,"body":"So when I was working as a contractor"},{"startTime":744.969,"endTime":749.464,"body":"for, Consultant for Boeing."},{"startTime":749.904,"endTime":751.454,"body":"It wasn't just software."},{"startTime":751.514,"endTime":753.694,"body":"It was embedded systems, etcetera."},{"startTime":753.974,"endTime":756.224,"body":"Avionics control systems."},{"startTime":756.804,"endTime":760.834,"body":"Testers were integral part"},{"startTime":756.804,"endTime":760.834,"body":"of the team from day one."},{"startTime":761.164,"endTime":763.844,"body":"When I say day one, I don't"},{"startTime":761.164,"endTime":763.844,"body":"mean when developers start work."},{"startTime":763.884,"endTime":767.414,"body":"I mean, when you start talking to"},{"startTime":763.884,"endTime":767.414,"body":"people about what is it that we're"},{"startTime":767.414,"endTime":771.644,"body":"trying to do and why, including all"},{"startTime":767.414,"endTime":771.644,"body":"the conversations with contractors and"},{"startTime":771.644,"endTime":773.974,"body":"subcontractors that that world is full of."},{"startTime":774.349,"endTime":777.679,"body":"Subcontracting things out, but"},{"startTime":774.349,"endTime":777.679,"body":"we had testers in there so they"},{"startTime":777.679,"endTime":781.129,"body":"could a ask the questions early"},{"startTime":777.679,"endTime":781.129,"body":"and ask the right questions."},{"startTime":781.469,"endTime":784.489,"body":"Some of the times people say, we need"},{"startTime":781.469,"endTime":784.489,"body":"this to work really, really well."},{"startTime":784.489,"endTime":785.329,"body":"It cannot fail."},{"startTime":785.449,"endTime":786.359,"body":"What does that even mean?"},{"startTime":786.359,"endTime":787.099,"body":"It cannot fail."},{"startTime":787.119,"endTime":787.799,"body":"Things will fail."},{"startTime":787.799,"endTime":788.719,"body":"There's moving parts."},{"startTime":788.959,"endTime":789.439,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":789.449,"endTime":789.789,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":789.799,"endTime":792.889,"body":"So that's where the testers would"},{"startTime":789.799,"endTime":792.889,"body":"come in and say, let's define that."},{"startTime":793.109,"endTime":793.459,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":793.989,"endTime":794.169,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":794.179,"endTime":797.059,"body":"The grade of service is"},{"startTime":794.179,"endTime":797.059,"body":"what we called at that time."},{"startTime":797.229,"endTime":797.499,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":797.599,"endTime":797.929,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":797.969,"endTime":800.819,"body":"It's, you know, testers."},{"startTime":800.819,"endTime":800.878,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":801.019,"endTime":806.429,"body":"Test, good testers should have a"},{"startTime":801.019,"endTime":806.429,"body":"different mindset and, and different"},{"startTime":806.439,"endTime":808.749,"body":"strengths than a developer."},{"startTime":809.429,"endTime":814.279,"body":"So and one of the things that, that I, I"},{"startTime":809.429,"endTime":814.279,"body":"truly believe is that a really good tester"},{"startTime":814.279,"endTime":820.349,"body":"is going to have an excellent attention to"},{"startTime":814.279,"endTime":820.349,"body":"detail and, and they'll fine tune things"},{"startTime":820.379,"endTime":823.969,"body":"and put them in much more precise terms."},{"startTime":824.669,"endTime":827.049,"body":"To make it more realistic to test,"},{"startTime":827.142,"endTime":830.962,"body":"it kind of makes you wonder centuries ago,"},{"startTime":827.142,"endTime":830.962,"body":"you know, when they built the pyramids,"},{"startTime":830.992,"endTime":832.502,"body":"the Egyptians built the pyramids."},{"startTime":832.952,"endTime":836.992,"body":"Even today, when you look at those,"},{"startTime":832.952,"endTime":836.992,"body":"I know you're laughing, but look,"},{"startTime":837.462,"endTime":841.272,"body":"when you look at the, no, listen,"},{"startTime":837.462,"endTime":841.272,"body":"when you look at the offset between"},{"startTime":841.272,"endTime":846.142,"body":"one level of the stones to another,"},{"startTime":841.272,"endTime":846.142,"body":"it's, it's like within millimeters."},{"startTime":846.557,"endTime":849.817,"body":"And you know, they didn't have"},{"startTime":846.557,"endTime":849.817,"body":"the instrumentation we have now."},{"startTime":850.037,"endTime":851.157,"body":"Did they have testers?"},{"startTime":851.307,"endTime":852.377,"body":"You wonder, I,"},{"startTime":852.447,"endTime":855.307,"body":"I, I firmly believe they had testers."},{"startTime":856.057,"endTime":859.597,"body":"I like to think perhaps they"},{"startTime":856.057,"endTime":859.597,"body":"had testers from the predecessor"},{"startTime":859.637,"endTime":861.607,"body":"of checkpoint technologies, but"},{"startTime":863.167,"endTime":863.927,"body":"nicely done."},{"startTime":864.937,"endTime":869.437,"body":"But yeah, they certainly, they certainly"},{"startTime":864.937,"endTime":869.437,"body":"had the testing mentality, the point"},{"startTime":869.447,"endTime":871.227,"body":"you were making that, that mindset."},{"startTime":871.227,"endTime":871.267,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":871.977,"endTime":874.007,"body":"In the builders that"},{"startTime":871.977,"endTime":874.007,"body":"were building it as well."},{"startTime":874.267,"endTime":878.187,"body":"And they, the testers that went in at"},{"startTime":874.267,"endTime":878.187,"body":"each stage, not when the whole thing"},{"startTime":878.187,"endTime":882.057,"body":"was built and go in and say, Hey,"},{"startTime":878.187,"endTime":882.057,"body":"level 32 is off by an inch, right?"},{"startTime":882.257,"endTime":885.667,"body":"Every stage they would say,"},{"startTime":882.257,"endTime":885.667,"body":"this needs to be redone or it's"},{"startTime":885.687,"endTime":886.227,"body":"good enough."},{"startTime":886.267,"endTime":889.497,"body":"They, they had to, they, they"},{"startTime":886.267,"endTime":889.497,"body":"had to do it at every stage."},{"startTime":889.527,"endTime":890.037,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":890.117,"endTime":894.987,"body":"Computer modeling today allows us"},{"startTime":890.117,"endTime":894.987,"body":"to simulate all of that accurately."},{"startTime":895.267,"endTime":898.247,"body":"And what the scientists have"},{"startTime":895.267,"endTime":898.247,"body":"found when they do that is."},{"startTime":899.342,"endTime":902.862,"body":"Every level is within"},{"startTime":899.342,"endTime":902.862,"body":"millimeters, not hundreds of"},{"startTime":902.862,"endTime":904.632,"body":"millimeters, tens of millimeters."},{"startTime":904.952,"endTime":909.192,"body":"You got to wonder, 5, 000 plus"},{"startTime":904.952,"endTime":909.192,"body":"years ago, how was that possible?"},{"startTime":909.492,"endTime":914.472,"body":"It's got to come down to a mentality"},{"startTime":909.492,"endTime":914.472,"body":"and that deliberate intent to build"},{"startTime":914.482,"endTime":917.872,"body":"something that is of high quality,"},{"startTime":914.482,"endTime":917.872,"body":"the highest grade of service."},{"startTime":917.962,"endTime":918.452,"body":"Okay, you,"},{"startTime":918.452,"endTime":923.432,"body":"you have Om, you have just"},{"startTime":918.452,"endTime":923.432,"body":"moved visiting the pyramids up"},{"startTime":923.462,"endTime":925.732,"body":"considerably on my bucket list."},{"startTime":925.762,"endTime":928.072,"body":"I strongly recommend very nice."},{"startTime":928.112,"endTime":928.712,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":928.742,"endTime":929.132,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":929.192,"endTime":930.282,"body":"Yeah, 20 years, Bob."},{"startTime":930.292,"endTime":932.309,"body":"That's what is stuck in my brain."},{"startTime":932.329,"endTime":933.149,"body":", 21 years."},{"startTime":933.209,"endTime":933.519,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":933.569,"endTime":933.909,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":933.979,"endTime":935.689,"body":"21, 21 years,"},{"startTime":935.689,"endTime":936.329,"body":"21 years."},{"startTime":936.339,"endTime":937.729,"body":"A lot of changes in 21 years."},{"startTime":937.739,"endTime":940.929,"body":"What are some of the changes"},{"startTime":937.739,"endTime":940.929,"body":"in the business, like the"},{"startTime":940.929,"endTime":943.009,"body":"business of QA in 20 plus years?"},{"startTime":943.009,"endTime":945.059,"body":"You know, it's, it's very interesting."},{"startTime":945.119,"endTime":950.429,"body":"I've seen a slight, slight, I'm"},{"startTime":945.119,"endTime":950.429,"body":"disappointed that it hasn't been"},{"startTime":950.429,"endTime":952.119,"body":"more, but a slight increase."},{"startTime":952.764,"endTime":957.314,"body":"And the amount of respect, quality"},{"startTime":952.764,"endTime":957.314,"body":"assurance and, and quality in"},{"startTime":957.314,"endTime":961.894,"body":"general receives again, I, I started"},{"startTime":957.314,"endTime":961.894,"body":"my career off as a developer."},{"startTime":961.914,"endTime":964.584,"body":"I have tremendous respect for developers."},{"startTime":964.964,"endTime":974.044,"body":"I understand the challenges but excellent"},{"startTime":964.964,"endTime":974.044,"body":"testers have, have a skillset that,"},{"startTime":974.074,"endTime":979.794,"body":"that people need to understand you"},{"startTime":974.074,"endTime":979.794,"body":"know, to be, to be an excellent quality."},{"startTime":980.444,"endTime":984.824,"body":"Assurance individual and an"},{"startTime":980.444,"endTime":984.824,"body":"excellent quality control individual."},{"startTime":985.334,"endTime":986.504,"body":"It takes education."},{"startTime":986.504,"endTime":992.014,"body":"It takes a certain amount of experience"},{"startTime":986.504,"endTime":992.014,"body":"and it takes technical aptitude."},{"startTime":992.324,"endTime":995.664,"body":"You also absolutely need to understand."},{"startTime":995.834,"endTime":996.724,"body":"The business."},{"startTime":997.324,"endTime":1000.594,"body":"And then there are certain"},{"startTime":997.324,"endTime":1000.594,"body":"mathematical things that you"},{"startTime":1000.594,"endTime":1002.154,"body":"need to understand as well."},{"startTime":1002.164,"endTime":1006.254,"body":"I mean, you know, we could start"},{"startTime":1002.164,"endTime":1006.254,"body":"throwing out different terminology,"},{"startTime":1006.254,"endTime":1008.684,"body":"equivalent classes and things like that."},{"startTime":1009.214,"endTime":1011.734,"body":"But which do you use"},{"startTime":1009.214,"endTime":1011.734,"body":"them every single day?"},{"startTime":1012.424,"endTime":1013.104,"body":"Of course not."},{"startTime":1013.244,"endTime":1017.534,"body":"Just like doctors or lawyers don't"},{"startTime":1013.244,"endTime":1017.534,"body":"use everything they learn every single"},{"startTime":1017.544,"endTime":1022.844,"body":"day, but it, it helps you to understand"},{"startTime":1017.544,"endTime":1022.844,"body":"it and it improves your skill."},{"startTime":1023.304,"endTime":1026.524,"body":"So, so that's one of the"},{"startTime":1023.304,"endTime":1026.524,"body":"things it has improved."},{"startTime":1026.564,"endTime":1028.094,"body":"Not as much as I would like."},{"startTime":1028.344,"endTime":1031.674,"body":"The other thing is just"},{"startTime":1028.344,"endTime":1031.674,"body":"out when it comes to."},{"startTime":1032.379,"endTime":1036.819,"body":"To automation, because that's another"},{"startTime":1032.379,"endTime":1036.819,"body":"very area of expertise that I have"},{"startTime":1036.819,"endTime":1042.859,"body":"is functional automation, especially"},{"startTime":1036.819,"endTime":1042.859,"body":"when we started 21 years ago, mercury"},{"startTime":1042.859,"endTime":1046.399,"body":"interactive for those of you that"},{"startTime":1042.859,"endTime":1046.399,"body":"remember windrunner test director."},{"startTime":1046.889,"endTime":1047.389,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1047.409,"endTime":1047.759,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1047.759,"endTime":1049.879,"body":"They, they were, they were the big dog."},{"startTime":1050.329,"endTime":1054.089,"body":"And, and now you have a lot of"},{"startTime":1050.329,"endTime":1054.089,"body":"excellent organizations as well."},{"startTime":1054.089,"endTime":1056.409,"body":"Elect excellent solutions."},{"startTime":1056.829,"endTime":1060.809,"body":"By Inflectra, Tricentis, these"},{"startTime":1056.829,"endTime":1060.809,"body":"are some of our partners."},{"startTime":1060.999,"endTime":1063.599,"body":"Selenium is phenomenal"},{"startTime":1060.999,"endTime":1063.599,"body":"in the right setting."},{"startTime":1064.059,"endTime":1067.179,"body":"As well as the Mercury"},{"startTime":1064.059,"endTime":1067.179,"body":"Interactive Solutions are still"},{"startTime":1067.179,"endTime":1069.219,"body":"around, now owned by OpenText."},{"startTime":1069.729,"endTime":1073.409,"body":"So the increase in solutions as well."},{"startTime":1073.999,"endTime":1077.379,"body":"And then also just the"},{"startTime":1073.999,"endTime":1077.379,"body":"way that, that Agile."},{"startTime":1078.014,"endTime":1085.804,"body":"CICD and DevOps continues to grow"},{"startTime":1078.014,"endTime":1085.804,"body":"and DevOps especially has increased"},{"startTime":1086.404,"endTime":1089.854,"body":"the importance of automation."},{"startTime":1089.997,"endTime":1094.557,"body":"So those are some of the big changes that"},{"startTime":1089.997,"endTime":1094.557,"body":"I've seen from a business perspective."},{"startTime":1094.617,"endTime":1096.467,"body":"There's been several there."},{"startTime":1096.737,"endTime":1099.307,"body":"And I mean, I've seen some of"},{"startTime":1096.737,"endTime":1099.307,"body":"the biggest changes in the past."},{"startTime":1100.167,"endTime":1104.957,"body":"four years because of"},{"startTime":1100.167,"endTime":1104.957,"body":"the pandemic and COVID."},{"startTime":1105.877,"endTime":1109.237,"body":"So those, those are some of the"},{"startTime":1105.877,"endTime":1109.237,"body":"many changes that I've seen."},{"startTime":1109.237,"endTime":1112.927,"body":"the DevOps category specifically, I'm very"},{"startTime":1109.237,"endTime":1112.927,"body":"active on different platforms like Reddit,"},{"startTime":1112.957,"endTime":1115.077,"body":"for example, and , believe it or not."},{"startTime":1115.127,"endTime":1118.327,"body":"It's good for things other than"},{"startTime":1115.127,"endTime":1118.327,"body":"just cat pictures or people"},{"startTime":1118.327,"endTime":1120.097,"body":"yelling into the sky or whatever."},{"startTime":1120.387,"endTime":1121.697,"body":"And I don't know whatever else."},{"startTime":1121.727,"endTime":1127.837,"body":"And then in the QA subreddit, there was a"},{"startTime":1121.727,"endTime":1127.837,"body":"question a while back about a QA shop who,"},{"startTime":1127.887,"endTime":1133.217,"body":"the, the QA people at that shop were being"},{"startTime":1127.887,"endTime":1133.217,"body":"asked to do DevOps tasks, meaning set up"},{"startTime":1133.217,"endTime":1134.917,"body":"pipelines and deployments and whatnot."},{"startTime":1135.477,"endTime":1139.027,"body":"And I remember responding to that"},{"startTime":1135.477,"endTime":1139.027,"body":"something along the lines of the,"},{"startTime":1139.482,"endTime":1142.302,"body":"Deployment of software through"},{"startTime":1139.482,"endTime":1142.302,"body":"development, like the release"},{"startTime":1142.312,"endTime":1145.382,"body":"pipelines, in the strictest sense QA."},{"startTime":1145.392,"endTime":1147.512,"body":"Sure that's not what your"},{"startTime":1145.392,"endTime":1147.512,"body":"main responsibility is."},{"startTime":1147.832,"endTime":1151.782,"body":"However, if you can add that on"},{"startTime":1147.832,"endTime":1151.782,"body":"top of your skill set, Oh boy, like"},{"startTime":1151.792,"endTime":1155.772,"body":"that, you, you are now like 10 X"},{"startTime":1151.792,"endTime":1155.772,"body":"more valuable on the market and"},{"startTime":1155.772,"endTime":1157.332,"body":"anywhere else that you want to go."},{"startTime":1157.332,"endTime":1161.992,"body":"So, you know, even though you may not see"},{"startTime":1157.332,"endTime":1161.992,"body":"it directly in your, in your wheelhouse,"},{"startTime":1162.332,"endTime":1164.242,"body":"it's a, it's a great skill set to learn"},{"startTime":1164.242,"endTime":1167.512,"body":"well, in shops specifically"},{"startTime":1164.242,"endTime":1167.512,"body":"that have very weak DevOps"},{"startTime":1167.512,"endTime":1169.112,"body":"presence, if any, you're right."},{"startTime":1169.262,"endTime":1169.642,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":1169.852,"endTime":1170.222,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1170.242,"endTime":1175.452,"body":"And, and QA has that responsibility"},{"startTime":1170.242,"endTime":1175.452,"body":"for a very specific part of the"},{"startTime":1175.452,"endTime":1177.452,"body":"pipeline that you're talking about."},{"startTime":1177.492,"endTime":1181.022,"body":"I mean, obviously the developers"},{"startTime":1177.492,"endTime":1181.022,"body":"are responsible for a certain"},{"startTime":1181.022,"endTime":1184.582,"body":"section of that, and then it gets"},{"startTime":1181.022,"endTime":1184.582,"body":"deployed into the next level."},{"startTime":1184.582,"endTime":1188.372,"body":"And QA has a responsibility"},{"startTime":1184.582,"endTime":1188.372,"body":"for that as well."},{"startTime":1188.612,"endTime":1189.402,"body":"And it's."},{"startTime":1190.502,"endTime":1196.502,"body":"Because a lot of organizations, especially"},{"startTime":1190.502,"endTime":1196.502,"body":"when they're transitioning to CICD or to"},{"startTime":1196.512,"endTime":1202.332,"body":"DevOps, again, they're transitioning, they"},{"startTime":1196.512,"endTime":1202.332,"body":"have a real challenge understanding how."},{"startTime":1202.967,"endTime":1211.077,"body":"All of these 1000 test cases that they now"},{"startTime":1202.967,"endTime":1211.077,"body":"have are going to fit into their pipeline"},{"startTime":1211.087,"endTime":1212.967,"body":"and they're going to automate all of that."},{"startTime":1213.367,"endTime":1216.117,"body":"And I've got to share with them"},{"startTime":1213.367,"endTime":1216.117,"body":"that, well, yeah, you do need to"},{"startTime":1216.147,"endTime":1219.507,"body":"automate 100 percent of what you"},{"startTime":1216.147,"endTime":1219.507,"body":"have in your pipeline, but now you"},{"startTime":1219.517,"endTime":1224.667,"body":"need to be more selective about what"},{"startTime":1219.517,"endTime":1224.667,"body":"you put into your, your pipeline."},{"startTime":1225.817,"endTime":1227.057,"body":"And that's where."},{"startTime":1227.932,"endTime":1232.732,"body":"Risk analysis, which I, I speak on"},{"startTime":1227.932,"endTime":1232.732,"body":"quite a bit and I absolutely love,"},{"startTime":1232.742,"endTime":1236.982,"body":"but that's where risk analysis"},{"startTime":1232.742,"endTime":1236.982,"body":"comes in as well as impact analysis."},{"startTime":1237.612,"endTime":1241.242,"body":"So that, you know, maybe before"},{"startTime":1237.612,"endTime":1241.242,"body":"when you had those, and I'm just"},{"startTime":1241.242,"endTime":1245.742,"body":"making up a number here, 1000 test"},{"startTime":1241.242,"endTime":1245.742,"body":"cases, use cases, user stories."},{"startTime":1246.052,"endTime":1249.082,"body":"Now, you know what, you're going"},{"startTime":1246.052,"endTime":1249.082,"body":"to narrow that down to 700."},{"startTime":1249.682,"endTime":1253.072,"body":"Those others you're still going to do, but"},{"startTime":1249.682,"endTime":1253.072,"body":"perhaps that's going to be in a one off."},{"startTime":1253.407,"endTime":1254.607,"body":"Type of situation."},{"startTime":1254.618,"endTime":1258.518,"body":"And now you're at a point where the"},{"startTime":1254.618,"endTime":1258.518,"body":"development of those skills for the"},{"startTime":1258.518,"endTime":1262.868,"body":"individual, the, the quote tester, I'm"},{"startTime":1258.518,"endTime":1262.868,"body":"doing quotes for all the people who"},{"startTime":1263.218,"endTime":1267.598,"body":"aren't watching me, the people sitting"},{"startTime":1263.218,"endTime":1267.598,"body":"in those seats, they don't look that"},{"startTime":1267.648,"endTime":1270.768,"body":"But what what the process that you"},{"startTime":1267.648,"endTime":1270.768,"body":"just described that is a function of"},{"startTime":1270.838,"endTime":1276.238,"body":"risk management and that is a function"},{"startTime":1270.838,"endTime":1276.238,"body":"of product management and What the,"},{"startTime":1276.508,"endTime":1280.108,"body":"what the QA people or the testers or"},{"startTime":1276.508,"endTime":1280.108,"body":"whatever you wanna call it, the what"},{"startTime":1280.108,"endTime":1284.728,"body":"the QA people can help with in that case"},{"startTime":1280.108,"endTime":1284.728,"body":"is analyzing the risk to the business."},{"startTime":1284.998,"endTime":1288.658,"body":"What test cases can we take and choose?"},{"startTime":1288.898,"endTime":1292.448,"body":"Which ones can we choose not to run"},{"startTime":1288.898,"endTime":1292.448,"body":"based on some evidence that we're seeing."},{"startTime":1292.698,"endTime":1297.808,"body":"Choose not to choose that or shovel"},{"startTime":1292.698,"endTime":1297.808,"body":"off into the category of a low risk to"},{"startTime":1297.808,"endTime":1301.598,"body":"split my thousand test cases out and"},{"startTime":1297.808,"endTime":1301.598,"body":"say, okay, only 750 of these is core"},{"startTime":1301.598,"endTime":1302.988,"body":"functionality or whatever the number."},{"startTime":1303.498,"endTime":1306.848,"body":"And then you call that critical"},{"startTime":1303.498,"endTime":1306.848,"body":"path or whatever the non critical"},{"startTime":1306.848,"endTime":1308.078,"body":"path, whatever that's called now."},{"startTime":1308.448,"endTime":1313.178,"body":"And then in that case, like product"},{"startTime":1308.448,"endTime":1313.178,"body":"management ends up delegating  a bit of"},{"startTime":1313.178,"endTime":1318.318,"body":"their role, a bit of their leadership"},{"startTime":1313.178,"endTime":1318.318,"body":"to the testers or QA people on the team."},{"startTime":1318.318,"endTime":1321.228,"body":"That's a, that, that seems"},{"startTime":1318.318,"endTime":1321.228,"body":"like a natural evolution to me."},{"startTime":1321.848,"endTime":1323.348,"body":"Yes, absolutely."},{"startTime":1323.348,"endTime":1326.218,"body":"So, so you've to be a top notch."},{"startTime":1326.698,"endTime":1329.638,"body":"I'm not going to say tester,"},{"startTime":1326.698,"endTime":1329.638,"body":"but a top notch test team."},{"startTime":1330.058,"endTime":1339.023,"body":"You've got to have someone who knows and"},{"startTime":1330.058,"endTime":1339.023,"body":"understands The business, you, you've"},{"startTime":1339.033,"endTime":1344.333,"body":"got to, so that they can understand,"},{"startTime":1339.033,"endTime":1344.333,"body":"all right, what is the likelihood"},{"startTime":1344.533,"endTime":1351.423,"body":"probability that this functionality"},{"startTime":1344.533,"endTime":1351.423,"body":"that we are testing will fail once it"},{"startTime":1351.423,"endTime":1357.283,"body":"gets into production and what's the"},{"startTime":1351.423,"endTime":1357.283,"body":"impact to the business should it fail."},{"startTime":1357.583,"endTime":1360.373,"body":"So everybody has heard this"},{"startTime":1357.583,"endTime":1360.373,"body":"before, but you've got to have"},{"startTime":1360.373,"endTime":1362.223,"body":"somebody like that on the testing."},{"startTime":1362.633,"endTime":1364.293,"body":"A"},{"startTime":1364.773,"endTime":1367.563,"body":"lot of times what I'm seeing is First"},{"startTime":1364.773,"endTime":1367.563,"body":"of all, I want to say you're right."},{"startTime":1367.593,"endTime":1371.283,"body":"It is, it is the business"},{"startTime":1367.593,"endTime":1371.283,"body":"of product management to say"},{"startTime":1372.043,"endTime":1373.283,"body":"what's going to happen, right?"},{"startTime":1373.303,"endTime":1374.093,"body":"It is a function."},{"startTime":1374.513,"endTime":1377.493,"body":"But a lot of times what I'm seeing"},{"startTime":1374.513,"endTime":1377.493,"body":"is product managers don't really"},{"startTime":1377.503,"endTime":1380.023,"body":"get involved in that up front."},{"startTime":1380.073,"endTime":1383.758,"body":"They get involved when the proverbial,"},{"startTime":1380.073,"endTime":1383.758,"body":"you know, You know, what hits the"},{"startTime":1383.758,"endTime":1387.468,"body":"fan, but often they don't, I don't"},{"startTime":1383.758,"endTime":1387.468,"body":"know why they don't, maybe they"},{"startTime":1387.468,"endTime":1390.078,"body":"don't have the expertise perhaps."},{"startTime":1390.588,"endTime":1394.148,"body":"So when you talk about things like the"},{"startTime":1390.588,"endTime":1394.148,"body":"team talks about things like code coverage"},{"startTime":1394.148,"endTime":1398.358,"body":"and whatever, yeah, that kind of goes"},{"startTime":1394.148,"endTime":1398.358,"body":"over a lot of people's heads, right?"},{"startTime":1398.398,"endTime":1401.348,"body":"They don't really care as much"},{"startTime":1398.398,"endTime":1401.348,"body":"or they don't understand it."},{"startTime":1401.348,"endTime":1403.878,"body":"I don't know which they"},{"startTime":1401.348,"endTime":1403.878,"body":"should, they should understand."},{"startTime":1403.878,"endTime":1406.678,"body":"Cause it all leads to  how good is."},{"startTime":1407.268,"endTime":1411.178,"body":"That release at the end and what then"},{"startTime":1407.268,"endTime":1411.178,"body":"to your point about risk impact risk"},{"startTime":1411.298,"endTime":1416.438,"body":"risk analysis It feeds into that so"},{"startTime":1411.298,"endTime":1416.438,"body":"they can make informed decisions, right?"},{"startTime":1416.528,"endTime":1416.768,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1416.768,"endTime":1418.658,"body":"I mean, this is a function"},{"startTime":1416.768,"endTime":1418.658,"body":"of product management."},{"startTime":1418.663,"endTime":1421.658,"body":"The risk to the business,"},{"startTime":1418.663,"endTime":1421.658,"body":"you know, is, is it viable?"},{"startTime":1422.058,"endTime":1426.578,"body":"This is one of the, the Marty Cagan,"},{"startTime":1422.058,"endTime":1426.578,"body":"the the four illities of Marty CAgan."},{"startTime":1426.598,"endTime":1431.698,"body":"Is it valuable, usable, feasible"},{"startTime":1426.598,"endTime":1431.698,"body":"and is it viable for the business?"},{"startTime":1431.898,"endTime":1434.838,"body":"And honestly, I think it just makes"},{"startTime":1431.898,"endTime":1434.838,"body":"you, you know, if you're aware of these,"},{"startTime":1434.858,"endTime":1438.388,"body":"I think it makes you a better advisor"},{"startTime":1434.858,"endTime":1438.388,"body":"to the product manager, just to say,"},{"startTime":1438.658,"endTime":1440.168,"body":"Hey, let me take care of this for you."},{"startTime":1440.218,"endTime":1444.568,"body":"Let me offload this from your"},{"startTime":1440.218,"endTime":1444.568,"body":"responsibilities or from your burden."},{"startTime":1444.568,"endTime":1446.238,"body":"And you know, I'll give"},{"startTime":1444.568,"endTime":1446.238,"body":"you a recommendation."},{"startTime":1446.348,"endTime":1447.208,"body":"You can look over my notes."},{"startTime":1447.208,"endTime":1448.488,"body":"I'll make everything transparent to you."},{"startTime":1448.488,"endTime":1450.318,"body":"And and then you can"},{"startTime":1448.488,"endTime":1450.318,"body":"make your determination."},{"startTime":1450.643,"endTime":1453.113,"body":"But you know, I'll end up"},{"startTime":1450.643,"endTime":1453.113,"body":"being your expert on this"},{"startTime":1453.133,"endTime":1454.633,"body":"that you kind of defer to, and"},{"startTime":1454.683,"endTime":1457.533,"body":"it makes you a more effective team"},{"startTime":1454.683,"endTime":1457.533,"body":"member and it makes you more effective."},{"startTime":1457.883,"endTime":1458.063,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1458.063,"endTime":1459.883,"body":"It makes you a more"},{"startTime":1458.063,"endTime":1459.883,"body":"effective member of the team."},{"startTime":1460.083,"endTime":1460.533,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1460.543,"endTime":1465.913,"body":"Well, the point you're making there,"},{"startTime":1460.543,"endTime":1465.913,"body":"Brian, I, is the way I interpret"},{"startTime":1465.913,"endTime":1467.353,"body":"it and, and it's very true."},{"startTime":1468.218,"endTime":1473.402,"body":"In quality assurance and quality"},{"startTime":1468.218,"endTime":1473.402,"body":"control,, we need to help bridge the"},{"startTime":1473.402,"endTime":1478.772,"body":"gap, the gap between IT and the business."},{"startTime":1480.052,"endTime":1488.382,"body":"IT is going to deliver their understanding"},{"startTime":1480.052,"endTime":1488.382,"body":"of what the software application"},{"startTime":1488.382,"endTime":1490.422,"body":"system, et cetera, is supposed to do."},{"startTime":1491.082,"endTime":1495.117,"body":"And then the business They have their"},{"startTime":1491.082,"endTime":1495.117,"body":"needs and here's what they want it to do."},{"startTime":1495.357,"endTime":1497.027,"body":"And you've got to bridge the gap."},{"startTime":1497.037,"endTime":1498.127,"body":"I was fortunate enough."},{"startTime":1498.127,"endTime":1500.607,"body":"It is at New Hampshire university."},{"startTime":1501.227,"endTime":1506.967,"body":"Oh, I had a professor in it back in the"},{"startTime":1501.227,"endTime":1506.967,"body":"early eighties who used to say, never give"},{"startTime":1506.977,"endTime":1512.507,"body":"your customer what they want, give them"},{"startTime":1506.977,"endTime":1512.507,"body":"what they need, and it's our job to help"},{"startTime":1512.527,"endTime":1514.887,"body":"them realize what it is that they need."},{"startTime":1515.297,"endTime":1518.427,"body":"So that's one of the things"},{"startTime":1515.297,"endTime":1518.427,"body":"that, that I've always tried to"},{"startTime":1518.437,"endTime":1521.857,"body":"do in my career in a very firm."},{"startTime":1522.257,"endTime":1525.237,"body":"But diplomatic way with customers."},{"startTime":1525.307,"endTime":1529.217,"body":"And, you know, so I need to bring up"},{"startTime":1525.307,"endTime":1529.217,"body":"one other topic that we haven't talked"},{"startTime":1529.217,"endTime":1533.397,"body":"about is artificial intelligence"},{"startTime":1529.217,"endTime":1533.397,"body":"and the internet of things."},{"startTime":1533.487,"endTime":1540.427,"body":"I mean,  you do a phenomenal job at"},{"startTime":1533.487,"endTime":1540.427,"body":"moderating the lean beers in the area."},{"startTime":1541.147,"endTime":1547.207,"body":"And we had a great question recently"},{"startTime":1541.147,"endTime":1547.207,"body":"at, at the lean beer in Tampa."},{"startTime":1547.577,"endTime":1550.337,"body":"Where somebody asked, does,"},{"startTime":1547.577,"endTime":1550.337,"body":"you know, is artificial"},{"startTime":1550.337,"endTime":1552.367,"body":"intelligence providing any value?"},{"startTime":1552.367,"endTime":1554.347,"body":"So I hope you don't mind"},{"startTime":1552.367,"endTime":1554.347,"body":"me changing the subject."},{"startTime":1554.757,"endTime":1555.227,"body":"That was perfect."},{"startTime":1555.237,"endTime":1557.907,"body":"But that had some great  discussion."},{"startTime":1558.377,"endTime":1562.157,"body":"And that you know, I remember"},{"startTime":1558.377,"endTime":1562.157,"body":"the, the, there was one individual"},{"startTime":1562.157,"endTime":1565.847,"body":"who brought up a very firm, no,"},{"startTime":1562.157,"endTime":1565.847,"body":"it provides no value at all."},{"startTime":1565.887,"endTime":1567.447,"body":"I think this was Mike Miller's point."},{"startTime":1567.507,"endTime":1569.407,"body":"It's like when he was"},{"startTime":1567.507,"endTime":1569.407,"body":"screaming into the void,"},{"startTime":1572.037,"endTime":1572.897,"body":"."},{"startTime":1572.037,"endTime":1572.897,"body":"Oh, okay."},{"startTime":1572.897,"endTime":1573.347,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1573.397,"endTime":1574.127,"body":"All right, Mike."},{"startTime":1574.517,"endTime":1578.987,"body":"And then, you know, I shared it just, it"},{"startTime":1574.517,"endTime":1578.987,"body":"depends on what your expectations are."},{"startTime":1578.987,"endTime":1584.317,"body":"You've got to set realistic expectations"},{"startTime":1578.987,"endTime":1584.317,"body":"because if you're looking for AI to"},{"startTime":1584.317,"endTime":1588.777,"body":"do the work for you, then my answer"},{"startTime":1584.317,"endTime":1588.777,"body":"would be a flat out no, but if you're"},{"startTime":1588.777,"endTime":1593.307,"body":"looking for it to, I'll, I'll just"},{"startTime":1588.777,"endTime":1593.307,"body":"use the analogy, write a draft and"},{"startTime":1593.307,"endTime":1594.237,"body":"then you're going to go in and."},{"startTime":1594.517,"endTime":1595.007,"body":"Edit it."},{"startTime":1595.457,"endTime":1598.867,"body":"Whether it's having it create"},{"startTime":1595.457,"endTime":1598.867,"body":"requirements, use cases,"},{"startTime":1598.867,"endTime":1601.357,"body":"user stories, a test plan."},{"startTime":1601.687,"endTime":1606.397,"body":"I think, you know, if you use it wisely,"},{"startTime":1601.687,"endTime":1606.397,"body":"it could provide significant value."},{"startTime":1606.457,"endTime":1608.397,"body":"It'll be interesting to see where it goes."},{"startTime":1608.467,"endTime":1609.267,"body":"It sure will"},{"startTime":1609.267,"endTime":1609.417,"body":"be."},{"startTime":1609.697,"endTime":1612.887,"body":"And what it's doing is"},{"startTime":1609.697,"endTime":1612.887,"body":"changing extremely rapidly."},{"startTime":1613.337,"endTime":1613.647,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1613.907,"endTime":1619.587,"body":"So when we say where is it going to be in"},{"startTime":1613.907,"endTime":1619.587,"body":"three years, five years, that's too long."},{"startTime":1619.617,"endTime":1621.807,"body":"I think we need to say what's"},{"startTime":1619.617,"endTime":1621.807,"body":"it going to be in a year."},{"startTime":1622.327,"endTime":1623.177,"body":"Yeah, six months."},{"startTime":1623.187,"endTime":1624.047,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1624.077,"endTime":1625.787,"body":"Because things are changing so quickly."},{"startTime":1625.787,"endTime":1626.277,"body":"it is."},{"startTime":1626.277,"endTime":1629.377,"body":"And three to six months is probably"},{"startTime":1626.277,"endTime":1629.377,"body":"the correct time to reevaluate what the"},{"startTime":1629.377,"endTime":1631.377,"body":"solutions are that are available to you."},{"startTime":1631.892,"endTime":1634.702,"body":"We kind of been going in and"},{"startTime":1631.892,"endTime":1634.702,"body":"out of skill development, but I"},{"startTime":1634.712,"endTime":1636.212,"body":"skipped over talent acquisition."},{"startTime":1636.532,"endTime":1640.902,"body":"So I, I skipped over it and finding"},{"startTime":1636.532,"endTime":1640.902,"body":"great QA talent and then bringing them"},{"startTime":1640.902,"endTime":1644.812,"body":"on again only because I've been a QA"},{"startTime":1640.902,"endTime":1644.812,"body":"manager before and I had to find and"},{"startTime":1644.812,"endTime":1649.592,"body":"develop and create a good team over time,"},{"startTime":1644.812,"endTime":1649.592,"body":"mentor and coach a good team over time."},{"startTime":1650.062,"endTime":1653.642,"body":"the interesting part about finding"},{"startTime":1650.062,"endTime":1653.642,"body":"great talent, looking for, for,"},{"startTime":1653.642,"endTime":1656.992,"body":"and looking for and finding great"},{"startTime":1653.642,"endTime":1656.992,"body":"talent is that you have to be looking"},{"startTime":1656.992,"endTime":1658.602,"body":"for where they're at right now."},{"startTime":1659.012,"endTime":1661.532,"body":"To find the best people that"},{"startTime":1659.012,"endTime":1661.532,"body":"could go to the next stage to go"},{"startTime":1661.532,"endTime":1663.042,"body":"to where you need them, right?"},{"startTime":1663.092,"endTime":1668.162,"body":"So you find a good a great QA person"},{"startTime":1663.092,"endTime":1668.162,"body":"who's working currently in a  QC role"},{"startTime":1668.162,"endTime":1672.082,"body":"or in a tester role to say, Oh, I"},{"startTime":1668.162,"endTime":1672.082,"body":"understand like you're in a role now"},{"startTime":1672.082,"endTime":1674.712,"body":"where they're not really asking that"},{"startTime":1672.082,"endTime":1674.712,"body":"much of you or because of the type"},{"startTime":1674.712,"endTime":1678.532,"body":"of the organization they're keeping"},{"startTime":1674.712,"endTime":1678.532,"body":"you, you know, in this, in this box."},{"startTime":1678.807,"endTime":1681.937,"body":"Where they're not really allowing you"},{"startTime":1678.807,"endTime":1681.937,"body":"to, to press on things and product"},{"startTime":1681.937,"endTime":1683.657,"body":"management or DevOps or other things."},{"startTime":1684.057,"endTime":1687.827,"body":"but understanding the broader process,"},{"startTime":1684.057,"endTime":1687.827,"body":"you understand where these people could"},{"startTime":1687.827,"endTime":1692.337,"body":"be making an impact to help with quality"},{"startTime":1687.827,"endTime":1692.337,"body":"end to end dealt with, the process and"},{"startTime":1692.337,"endTime":1694.297,"body":"all the activities involved within."},{"startTime":1694.887,"endTime":1697.497,"body":"Now, I would imagine you'd be,"},{"startTime":1694.887,"endTime":1697.497,"body":"you could be able to take them"},{"startTime":1697.707,"endTime":1701.297,"body":"from the organization that they're"},{"startTime":1697.707,"endTime":1701.297,"body":"in and drop them into any other"},{"startTime":1701.297,"endTime":1703.997,"body":"organization and have them really excel"},{"startTime":1704.097,"endTime":1707.847,"body":"I mean the, the, the, the special,"},{"startTime":1704.097,"endTime":1707.847,"body":"the special formula is your"},{"startTime":1707.847,"endTime":1709.437,"body":"ability to spot these people"},{"startTime":1709.437,"endTime":1710.677,"body":"yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1710.717,"endTime":1715.177,"body":"That, that's the secret sauce right there"},{"startTime":1710.717,"endTime":1715.177,"body":"is how do you spot that person, right?"},{"startTime":1715.227,"endTime":1719.647,"body":"Or the other side of it is, which is"},{"startTime":1715.227,"endTime":1719.647,"body":"you have people that know what to do."},{"startTime":1720.127,"endTime":1722.677,"body":"Maybe it's the same side that"},{"startTime":1720.127,"endTime":1722.677,"body":"they're a hamstrung, right?"},{"startTime":1722.677,"endTime":1727.857,"body":"Because their organization"},{"startTime":1722.677,"endTime":1727.857,"body":"is more focused around QC and"},{"startTime":1727.857,"endTime":1729.667,"body":"receiving things from developers."},{"startTime":1729.877,"endTime":1730.837,"body":"But this person."},{"startTime":1731.222,"endTime":1735.282,"body":"People, they, they really get it, you"},{"startTime":1731.222,"endTime":1735.282,"body":"know, there's keeping abreast of the"},{"startTime":1735.282,"endTime":1737.332,"body":"latest developments in the quality world."},{"startTime":1737.712,"endTime":1739.382,"body":"So yeah, that's a, that's a good topic."},{"startTime":1739.392,"endTime":1743.502,"body":"How do you, as a, as a company,"},{"startTime":1739.392,"endTime":1743.502,"body":"how do you go about finding"},{"startTime":1744.352,"endTime":1746.352,"body":"talent that you can bring to bear?"},{"startTime":1747.062,"endTime":1749.502,"body":"To your customers business problems."},{"startTime":1749.582,"endTime":1749.802,"body":"Well,"},{"startTime":1749.832,"endTime":1758.052,"body":"My Number one preferred method of finding"},{"startTime":1749.832,"endTime":1758.052,"body":"talent is always referrals So having"},{"startTime":1758.062,"endTime":1762.732,"body":"and I'm sure everybody understands that"},{"startTime":1758.062,"endTime":1762.732,"body":"you know having a having a great  team"},{"startTime":1762.742,"endTime":1770.067,"body":"member Refer someone who they know"},{"startTime":1762.742,"endTime":1770.067,"body":"well And they speak highly of I, I'm"},{"startTime":1770.067,"endTime":1772.317,"body":"one, I respect other people's opinions."},{"startTime":1772.327,"endTime":1778.797,"body":"So that's one thing from, from"},{"startTime":1772.327,"endTime":1778.797,"body":"an interviewing process, I dive"},{"startTime":1778.797,"endTime":1782.297,"body":"deep and some of the things"},{"startTime":1778.797,"endTime":1782.297,"body":"that I look for, nothing new."},{"startTime":1782.307,"endTime":1783.357,"body":"I look for passion."},{"startTime":1784.367,"endTime":1789.307,"body":"I want to know that, that an"},{"startTime":1784.367,"endTime":1789.307,"body":"individual is going above and beyond"},{"startTime":1789.667,"endTime":1796.097,"body":"to improve their knowledge on software"},{"startTime":1789.667,"endTime":1796.097,"body":"testing and quality assurance."},{"startTime":1796.547,"endTime":1800.797,"body":"If during an interview they tell me,"},{"startTime":1796.547,"endTime":1800.797,"body":"oh yeah, I attend lean beers every"},{"startTime":1800.797,"endTime":1808.167,"body":"chance that I get, or I listened to Joe"},{"startTime":1800.797,"endTime":1808.167,"body":"Colantonio podcast things along that line."},{"startTime":1808.687,"endTime":1814.027,"body":"I'm making an effort to get"},{"startTime":1808.687,"endTime":1814.027,"body":"my ISTQB, ASTQB certification."},{"startTime":1814.337,"endTime":1819.237,"body":"That means something to me that shows"},{"startTime":1814.337,"endTime":1819.237,"body":"a level of effort and a passion for"},{"startTime":1819.257,"endTime":1821.497,"body":"software testing, quality assurance."},{"startTime":1821.967,"endTime":1826.477,"body":"The other thing that I do, and I've"},{"startTime":1821.967,"endTime":1826.477,"body":"actually developed this into a topic"},{"startTime":1826.497,"endTime":1831.287,"body":"in which I've been a keynote at a"},{"startTime":1826.497,"endTime":1831.287,"body":"number of conferences, and I might"},{"startTime":1831.287,"endTime":1837.027,"body":"use brain teasers, games, and puzzles"},{"startTime":1831.287,"endTime":1837.027,"body":"during the interview process to."},{"startTime":1837.262,"endTime":1844.322,"body":"Help me identify any particular skills"},{"startTime":1837.262,"endTime":1844.322,"body":"or aptitudes that individual might have."},{"startTime":1844.652,"endTime":1848.692,"body":"So there are certain brain teasers"},{"startTime":1844.652,"endTime":1848.692,"body":"I might use to develop if a person"},{"startTime":1848.712,"endTime":1853.412,"body":"is excellent or good at abstract"},{"startTime":1848.712,"endTime":1853.412,"body":"reasoning, things like that."},{"startTime":1853.412,"endTime":1855.912,"body":"So those are some of the"},{"startTime":1853.412,"endTime":1855.912,"body":"different methods that I use."},{"startTime":1856.202,"endTime":1859.682,"body":"We also have a few different"},{"startTime":1856.202,"endTime":1859.682,"body":"resource partners I might utilize."},{"startTime":1859.947,"endTime":1866.427,"body":"Who understand what I'm looking for"},{"startTime":1859.947,"endTime":1866.427,"body":"because culture and and when you're when"},{"startTime":1866.427,"endTime":1871.327,"body":"you're a small organization like ours"},{"startTime":1866.427,"endTime":1871.327,"body":"who does great and very large things."},{"startTime":1871.327,"endTime":1874.607,"body":"I mean, we've done business"},{"startTime":1871.327,"endTime":1874.607,"body":"in 42 of the 50 states."},{"startTime":1874.767,"endTime":1878.687,"body":"Our culture is we are very"},{"startTime":1874.767,"endTime":1878.687,"body":"close knit organization."},{"startTime":1879.257,"endTime":1884.047,"body":"I've actually had employees that"},{"startTime":1879.257,"endTime":1884.047,"body":"are not comfortable In that type"},{"startTime":1884.047,"endTime":1892.337,"body":"of a setting, they prefer the rigid"},{"startTime":1884.047,"endTime":1892.337,"body":"robotic, in my opinion culture of, you"},{"startTime":1892.337,"endTime":1894.297,"body":"know, the big, big corporate world."},{"startTime":1894.947,"endTime":1897.957,"body":"So these are some of the things that"},{"startTime":1894.947,"endTime":1897.957,"body":"I look for in some of the ways, you"},{"startTime":1897.957,"endTime":1899.467,"body":"know, that I try to find people."},{"startTime":1899.51,"endTime":1901.85,"body":"So people that are listening to this"},{"startTime":1899.51,"endTime":1901.85,"body":"podcast, and if they've listened"},{"startTime":1901.85,"endTime":1905.07,"body":"to others know that I'm a big fan"},{"startTime":1901.85,"endTime":1905.07,"body":"of the journeyman model, bringing"},{"startTime":1905.07,"endTime":1906.79,"body":"people in and then showing them."},{"startTime":1907.635,"endTime":1912.475,"body":"The trade right and getting them up"},{"startTime":1907.635,"endTime":1912.475,"body":"to speed as opposed to just simply"},{"startTime":1912.655,"endTime":1917.48,"body":"buying the talent, so to speak,"},{"startTime":1912.655,"endTime":1917.48,"body":"which I'm not saying that's wrong,"},{"startTime":1917.98,"endTime":1919.8,"body":"there's, there's space for each."},{"startTime":1920.11,"endTime":1922.42,"body":"Have you used that at all?"},{"startTime":1922.42,"endTime":1924.44,"body":"If you have, what has"},{"startTime":1922.42,"endTime":1924.44,"body":"been your experience?"},{"startTime":1924.45,"endTime":1928.18,"body":"Have you got people that have"},{"startTime":1924.45,"endTime":1928.18,"body":"come in and you've kind of really"},{"startTime":1928.18,"endTime":1932.16,"body":"enabled them from within to grow"},{"startTime":1928.18,"endTime":1932.16,"body":"in a place where they need to go?"},{"startTime":1932.384,"endTime":1933.284,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1933.384,"endTime":1937.314,"body":"I'm going to give a shout"},{"startTime":1933.384,"endTime":1937.314,"body":"out to one of our employees."},{"startTime":1937.874,"endTime":1939.834,"body":"Gentleman's name is Matt Kubal."},{"startTime":1940.394,"endTime":1944.734,"body":"So Matt, if, if you're"},{"startTime":1940.394,"endTime":1944.734,"body":"listening, Matt has been with us."},{"startTime":1944.824,"endTime":1945.704,"body":"Oh, my gosh."},{"startTime":1945.704,"endTime":1949.654,"body":"He's he's coming up on 10 years."},{"startTime":1949.674,"endTime":1956.884,"body":"He's coming up on 10 years, and he"},{"startTime":1949.674,"endTime":1956.884,"body":"started with us with excellent I."},{"startTime":1956.904,"endTime":1957.124,"body":"T."},{"startTime":1957.124,"endTime":1959.624,"body":"Knowledge, but no experience in I."},{"startTime":1959.664,"endTime":1959.974,"body":"T."},{"startTime":1960.274,"endTime":1964.944,"body":"He had a degree in mathematics, but"},{"startTime":1960.274,"endTime":1964.944,"body":"more than that, he's been It was very"},{"startTime":1965.004,"endTime":1971.044,"body":"obvious to our organization that he"},{"startTime":1965.004,"endTime":1971.044,"body":"was a quick learner and he was eager to"},{"startTime":1971.044,"endTime":1982.454,"body":"learn great personality, very good at"},{"startTime":1971.044,"endTime":1982.454,"body":"explaining abstract ideas in layman terms."},{"startTime":1983.014,"endTime":1988.184,"body":"And Matt has grown with"},{"startTime":1983.014,"endTime":1988.184,"body":"us  we're now he is an."},{"startTime":1989.334,"endTime":1993.674,"body":"An account manager for us who is"},{"startTime":1989.334,"endTime":1993.674,"body":"still very much billable as an"},{"startTime":1993.674,"endTime":1999.824,"body":"engineer, and now he is a very senior"},{"startTime":1993.674,"endTime":1999.824,"body":"and an expert in his own right."},{"startTime":2000.174,"endTime":2005.674,"body":"In test, functional test automation"},{"startTime":2000.174,"endTime":2005.674,"body":"and, and that was all internal."},{"startTime":2006.004,"endTime":2007.654,"body":"We provided him training."},{"startTime":2008.124,"endTime":2012.494,"body":"We provided him with the"},{"startTime":2008.124,"endTime":2012.494,"body":"tools, but he took advantage"},{"startTime":2012.494,"endTime":2015.374,"body":"of it, he had the initiative."},{"startTime":2015.784,"endTime":2017.564,"body":"So yeah, kudos to Matt."},{"startTime":2017.764,"endTime":2018.004,"body":"That's"},{"startTime":2018.004,"endTime":2018.774,"body":"fantastic."},{"startTime":2018.774,"endTime":2020.534,"body":"I'm so happy to hear that story."},{"startTime":2020.554,"endTime":2023.674,"body":"Cause it's very lacking these days"},{"startTime":2020.554,"endTime":2023.674,"body":"out there in the industry in general."},{"startTime":2024.024,"endTime":2026.954,"body":"People are just simply"},{"startTime":2024.024,"endTime":2026.954,"body":"using people as resources."},{"startTime":2027.254,"endTime":2029.894,"body":"And especially, this is definitely"},{"startTime":2027.254,"endTime":2029.894,"body":"the podcast to show up for Bob."},{"startTime":2029.894,"endTime":2034.144,"body":"A lot of people just view testers"},{"startTime":2029.894,"endTime":2034.144,"body":"as clicking around on the screen,"},{"startTime":2034.144,"endTime":2035.544,"body":"manual testing, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2035.894,"endTime":2036.184,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2036.224,"endTime":2039.634,"body":"And they're, they're really kind"},{"startTime":2036.224,"endTime":2039.634,"body":"of diminutive about the experience."},{"startTime":2039.634,"endTime":2041.534,"body":"I don't know what the right word is."},{"startTime":2041.824,"endTime":2045.614,"body":"If you can get somebody in who really"},{"startTime":2041.824,"endTime":2045.614,"body":"can question your quote requirements"},{"startTime":2045.924,"endTime":2051.014,"body":"or the inspect the process, can explore"},{"startTime":2045.924,"endTime":2051.014,"body":"test cases can be really detail oriented."},{"startTime":2051.014,"endTime":2053.574,"body":"Like you were talking about"},{"startTime":2051.014,"endTime":2053.574,"body":"earlier on the podcast, talk about"},{"startTime":2053.574,"endTime":2057.544,"body":"alternate paths maybe even someone"},{"startTime":2053.574,"endTime":2057.544,"body":"who can do wireframing, sorry."},{"startTime":2057.544,"endTime":2060.024,"body":"Welcome to the podcast where"},{"startTime":2057.544,"endTime":2060.024,"body":"Brian goes off on random tangents."},{"startTime":2060.644,"endTime":2065.234,"body":"Where I'm going with this is you, you,"},{"startTime":2060.644,"endTime":2065.234,"body":"you maybe have the initial skill set that"},{"startTime":2065.234,"endTime":2069.534,"body":"they start off with and they could go in"},{"startTime":2065.234,"endTime":2069.534,"body":"many, many, many different directions."},{"startTime":2069.814,"endTime":2073.424,"body":"So me, you might have a UI"},{"startTime":2069.814,"endTime":2073.424,"body":"UX designer in your midst."},{"startTime":2073.424,"endTime":2074.604,"body":"You might have a QA engineer."},{"startTime":2074.604,"endTime":2077.134,"body":"You might have a somebody"},{"startTime":2074.604,"endTime":2077.134,"body":"who wants to be a developer."},{"startTime":2077.604,"endTime":2081.544,"body":"You never really know you potentially"},{"startTime":2077.604,"endTime":2081.544,"body":"they might take my path where"},{"startTime":2081.544,"endTime":2082.914,"body":"they become a product manager,"},{"startTime":2083.274,"endTime":2087.794,"body":"Where I was asking a lot of questions,"},{"startTime":2083.274,"endTime":2087.794,"body":"for example, along the lines of"},{"startTime":2087.794,"endTime":2089.424,"body":"do, do customers care about this?"},{"startTime":2089.634,"endTime":2091.434,"body":"How is the business going"},{"startTime":2089.634,"endTime":2091.434,"body":"to take advantage of this?"},{"startTime":2091.604,"endTime":2093.654,"body":"how are we going to"},{"startTime":2091.604,"endTime":2093.654,"body":"sell this in the future?"},{"startTime":2093.654,"endTime":2095.204,"body":"How are we going to"},{"startTime":2093.654,"endTime":2095.204,"body":"scale this, for example?"},{"startTime":2095.424,"endTime":2097.434,"body":"Those are all things that"},{"startTime":2095.424,"endTime":2097.434,"body":"I would ask as a tester."},{"startTime":2097.834,"endTime":2102.544,"body":"We probably should take this, this"},{"startTime":2097.834,"endTime":2102.544,"body":"subject offline for a future podcast."},{"startTime":2103.099,"endTime":2104.869,"body":"Maybe QA career paths."},{"startTime":2104.869,"endTime":2107.129,"body":"I think that would be"},{"startTime":2104.869,"endTime":2107.129,"body":"really interesting and"},{"startTime":2107.129,"endTime":2109.699,"body":"I bring it up because it's very"},{"startTime":2107.129,"endTime":2109.699,"body":"interesting when you bring on"},{"startTime":2109.699,"endTime":2114.499,"body":"a team of quality assurance or,"},{"startTime":2109.699,"endTime":2114.499,"body":"software testers that you find"},{"startTime":2114.499,"endTime":2115.489,"body":"out what they're interested in."},{"startTime":2115.489,"endTime":2118.339,"body":"And then you continually keep"},{"startTime":2115.489,"endTime":2118.339,"body":"asking, okay, what is the next"},{"startTime":2118.339,"endTime":2119.639,"body":"step for what you're interested in?"},{"startTime":2120.009,"endTime":2121.779,"body":"And kind of, how does that"},{"startTime":2120.009,"endTime":2121.779,"body":"line up with the market?"},{"startTime":2121.779,"endTime":2128.299,"body":"It, one, one of the things that, that"},{"startTime":2121.779,"endTime":2128.299,"body":"we, during an interview process and"},{"startTime":2129.504,"endTime":2136.204,"body":"The career of our employees, we remind"},{"startTime":2129.504,"endTime":2136.204,"body":"them they need to define success to me."},{"startTime":2136.904,"endTime":2141.414,"body":"They, it's, I need to understand"},{"startTime":2136.904,"endTime":2141.414,"body":"what their definition of success is"},{"startTime":2141.664,"endTime":2143.334,"body":"in order to help them achieve it."},{"startTime":2143.624,"endTime":2145.254,"body":"And I want to help them to achieve it."},{"startTime":2145.504,"endTime":2147.524,"body":"Sometimes that means, you know what?"},{"startTime":2148.454,"endTime":2151.384,"body":"Telling them you're not"},{"startTime":2148.454,"endTime":2151.384,"body":"going to find that here."},{"startTime":2151.434,"endTime":2152.244,"body":"I hate to say it."},{"startTime":2152.254,"endTime":2154.764,"body":"You're not going to find that"},{"startTime":2152.254,"endTime":2154.764,"body":"here with checkpoint technologies,"},{"startTime":2154.784,"endTime":2157.854,"body":"or I say you definitely will,"},{"startTime":2154.784,"endTime":2157.854,"body":"but here's what you need to do."},{"startTime":2157.874,"endTime":2159.144,"body":"Are you willing to do that?"},{"startTime":2159.784,"endTime":2161.074,"body":"So yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2161.094,"endTime":2165.634,"body":"And then when it talks about failure,"},{"startTime":2161.094,"endTime":2165.634,"body":"I've always been, I tell people I'd"},{"startTime":2165.634,"endTime":2168.164,"body":"love to fail because I learned from it."},{"startTime":2169.009,"endTime":2169.859,"body":"I learned from it."},{"startTime":2169.929,"endTime":2173.399,"body":"And if I don't learn from it,"},{"startTime":2169.929,"endTime":2173.399,"body":"I, I get upset with myself."},{"startTime":2174.189,"endTime":2174.339,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2174.339,"endTime":2176.439,"body":"If you're not failing, you're"},{"startTime":2174.339,"endTime":2176.439,"body":"probably not taking risks."},{"startTime":2176.719,"endTime":2177.679,"body":"If you're not taking risks,"},{"startTime":2177.679,"endTime":2178.889,"body":"yeah, you're not innovating."},{"startTime":2178.899,"endTime":2179.359,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2179.669,"endTime":2182.119,"body":"I mean welcome to a whole"},{"startTime":2179.669,"endTime":2182.119,"body":"nother podcast again."},{"startTime":2182.309,"endTime":2185.609,"body":"Because again,  if we could crack"},{"startTime":2182.309,"endTime":2185.609,"body":"the code of why people are not okay"},{"startTime":2185.609,"endTime":2189.699,"body":"with taking risks  or delegating"},{"startTime":2185.609,"endTime":2189.699,"body":"risks to their employees because"},{"startTime":2189.709,"endTime":2191.279,"body":"that's where creativity happens."},{"startTime":2191.649,"endTime":2194.939,"body":"And by the way, if we can crack"},{"startTime":2191.649,"endTime":2194.939,"body":"that code, Oh boy, let's bottle"},{"startTime":2194.939,"endTime":2197.109,"body":"it up and sell it for 29."},{"startTime":2197.109,"endTime":2197.144,"body":"95."},{"startTime":2197.194,"endTime":2197.434,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2197.434,"endTime":2198.484,"body":"Or, or, or, yeah."},{"startTime":2198.574,"endTime":2199.924,"body":"Or two for 25 bucks."},{"startTime":2199.924,"endTime":2200.314,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2200.364,"endTime":2203.064,"body":"Why people are not okay with"},{"startTime":2200.364,"endTime":2203.064,"body":"failure and why you can't name that"},{"startTime":2203.374,"endTime":2204.834,"body":"in the environment and be okay."},{"startTime":2205.114,"endTime":2206.274,"body":"There is, there's ego."},{"startTime":2206.274,"endTime":2209.234,"body":"There's all kinds of other stuff but"},{"startTime":2206.274,"endTime":2209.234,"body":"again, that's a different podcast."},{"startTime":2209.234,"endTime":2209.751,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2209.751,"endTime":2211.62,"body":"So this has been a fantastic topic."},{"startTime":2211.79,"endTime":2212.93,"body":"It's been a long time coming."},{"startTime":2212.93,"endTime":2216.35,"body":"So thank you for all of you that"},{"startTime":2212.93,"endTime":2216.35,"body":"have stayed with us this far."},{"startTime":2216.35,"endTime":2217.566,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2217.566,"endTime":2218.296,"body":"Kubal."},{"startTime":2218.783,"endTime":2221.863,"body":"Kudos to you, Matt and the other two"},{"startTime":2218.783,"endTime":2221.863,"body":"people that have stayed with us through"},{"startTime":2221.863,"endTime":2225.633,"body":"the up until this time, let us know"},{"startTime":2221.863,"endTime":2225.633,"body":"what else you'd like us to talk about."},{"startTime":2226.278,"endTime":2228.238,"body":"Down below in the comment section."},{"startTime":2229.018,"endTime":2229.408,"body":"And"},{"startTime":2229.408,"endTime":2229.838,"body":"Brian."},{"startTime":2229.838,"endTime":2231.908,"body":"Thank you for all really enjoyed it."},{"startTime":2231.938,"endTime":2233.258,"body":"Really enjoyed it very much."},{"startTime":2233.328,"endTime":2235.048,"body":"And thank you everybody for listening."},{"startTime":2235.548,"endTime":2238.728,"body":"Yeah, feel free to connect"},{"startTime":2235.548,"endTime":2238.728,"body":"with me on LinkedIn."},{"startTime":2238.728,"endTime":2241.618,"body":"It's Bob and Crews C R E W S."},{"startTime":2242.478,"endTime":2245.188,"body":"And don't forget to like, and"},{"startTime":2242.478,"endTime":2245.188,"body":"subscribe, ring that bell down below."}]}