{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"welcome to the arguing the Agile podcast"},{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"where enterprise business agility"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"coach Om Patel and me product manager"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"Brian Orlando debate the real world"},{"startTime":8.45,"endTime":10.54,"body":"challenges Agile professionals will face."},{"startTime":10.74,"endTime":12.329,"body":"We are not here to sell you anything."},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"We are here to argue about"},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"Agile so that you don't have to."},{"startTime":17.952,"endTime":20.752,"body":"So you're a product leader."},{"startTime":20.771,"endTime":23.411,"body":"That's what we call people who"},{"startTime":20.771,"endTime":23.411,"body":"hire people in product management."},{"startTime":23.411,"endTime":24.888,"body":"Now we call them product leaders Om."},{"startTime":25.252,"endTime":28.131,"body":"Didn't know if you knew that I"},{"startTime":25.252,"endTime":28.131,"body":"did not but that's enlightening."},{"startTime":28.181,"endTime":31.051,"body":"We're starting the podcast by"},{"startTime":28.181,"endTime":31.051,"body":"turning off product leaders."},{"startTime":31.051,"endTime":34.771,"body":"So if you're product leader and"},{"startTime":31.051,"endTime":34.771,"body":"you're hiring a product manager"},{"startTime":34.921,"endTime":38.471,"body":"what are some steps to get them set"},{"startTime":34.921,"endTime":38.471,"body":"up and started in the right way?"},{"startTime":38.501,"endTime":39.511,"body":"That's a great question."},{"startTime":39.521,"endTime":41.881,"body":"Cause I don't know if there's"},{"startTime":39.521,"endTime":41.881,"body":"a whole lot of Artifacts out"},{"startTime":41.881,"endTime":43.421,"body":"there that help product leaders."},{"startTime":43.461,"endTime":46.811,"body":"I think people struggle with"},{"startTime":43.461,"endTime":46.811,"body":"this generally in the field."},{"startTime":46.861,"endTime":48.061,"body":"That's my sense of it."},{"startTime":48.211,"endTime":52.011,"body":"So in this podcast, we're going to"},{"startTime":48.211,"endTime":52.011,"body":"unpack that and figure out like, what"},{"startTime":52.011,"endTime":53.661,"body":"are some good things that they can do?"},{"startTime":53.671,"endTime":58.261,"body":"I mean, right off the bat, I can think"},{"startTime":53.671,"endTime":58.261,"body":"of applying the same principles you would"},{"startTime":58.262,"endTime":60.271,"body":"apply onboarding anybody new, right?"},{"startTime":60.271,"endTime":64.261,"body":"They're coming into your company or"},{"startTime":60.271,"endTime":64.261,"body":"your organization as a new person."},{"startTime":64.411,"endTime":64.851,"body":"So."},{"startTime":65.091,"endTime":69.061,"body":"It stands to reason that you would"},{"startTime":65.091,"endTime":69.061,"body":"you know, you would explain to them"},{"startTime":69.071,"endTime":70.981,"body":"what the organization is all about."},{"startTime":71.011,"endTime":74.211,"body":"What is your, what is your org"},{"startTime":71.011,"endTime":74.211,"body":"vision, mission, et cetera?"},{"startTime":74.271,"endTime":76.081,"body":"And what are you in business to do?"},{"startTime":76.231,"endTime":80.131,"body":"And explain to them, this is"},{"startTime":76.231,"endTime":80.131,"body":"how, you know, this is how"},{"startTime":80.151,"endTime":81.832,"body":"the company is right now."},{"startTime":81.851,"endTime":82.921,"body":"And that's what you're walking into."},{"startTime":83.071,"endTime":88.141,"body":"Yeah, A book I keep going to many, many"},{"startTime":83.071,"endTime":88.141,"body":"times on the podcast is Gino Wickman's"},{"startTime":88.241,"endTime":92.901,"body":"Traction because in the, in the book"},{"startTime":88.241,"endTime":92.901,"body":"Traction, he delineates working in"},{"startTime":92.901,"endTime":96.551,"body":"the business, meaning, you know, your"},{"startTime":92.901,"endTime":96.551,"body":"day to day work versus working on the"},{"startTime":96.551,"endTime":100.311,"body":"business and not a lot of, not a lot"},{"startTime":96.551,"endTime":100.311,"body":"of businesses, quite honestly, not a"},{"startTime":100.311,"endTime":105.201,"body":"lot of businesses take the time to say,"},{"startTime":100.311,"endTime":105.201,"body":"Hey, are we stopping to think about how"},{"startTime":105.201,"endTime":107.761,"body":"we can do these work processes better?"},{"startTime":107.911,"endTime":109.106,"body":"Not a lot of people are even doing that."},{"startTime":109.256,"endTime":110.546,"body":"Stopping to think about that."},{"startTime":110.846,"endTime":118.256,"body":"And an overview of how our in"},{"startTime":110.846,"endTime":118.256,"body":"inter or intra team practices work."},{"startTime":118.406,"endTime":121.716,"body":"You know, in overview of your mission"},{"startTime":118.406,"endTime":121.716,"body":"and vision of the organization."},{"startTime":121.866,"endTime":123.496,"body":"Again, assuming that exists."},{"startTime":123.646,"endTime":125.116,"body":"Yeah, well that's a big assumption too."},{"startTime":125.156,"endTime":125.706,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":125.746,"endTime":129.826,"body":"I think a lot of times this"},{"startTime":125.746,"endTime":129.826,"body":"falls on HR packaging it."},{"startTime":130.036,"endTime":132.643,"body":"You know, this is your onboarding package."},{"startTime":132.643,"endTime":132.916,"body":"Oh no."},{"startTime":132.916,"endTime":133.956,"body":"That's what I found."},{"startTime":133.956,"endTime":137.936,"body":"I mean, you know, go visit these websites,"},{"startTime":133.956,"endTime":137.936,"body":"or go listen to these or watch these"},{"startTime":137.936,"endTime":140.976,"body":"videos, and you'll become indoctrinated?"},{"startTime":141.016,"endTime":141.456,"body":"Aware."},{"startTime":141.726,"endTime":144.316,"body":"Aware of what we're all about."},{"startTime":144.467,"endTime":146.897,"body":"You can't ask any questions, of"},{"startTime":144.467,"endTime":146.897,"body":"course, when you're doing that because"},{"startTime":146.897,"endTime":148.627,"body":"you're just consuming that, right?"},{"startTime":148.666,"endTime":153.186,"body":"I was gonna say you had me at HR is like"},{"startTime":148.666,"endTime":153.186,"body":"you you're not allowed to ask questions"},{"startTime":153.426,"endTime":155.017,"body":"You're not allowed to think on your own."},{"startTime":155.317,"endTime":157.227,"body":"You're not allowed to"},{"startTime":155.317,"endTime":157.227,"body":"stray from procedure."},{"startTime":157.296,"endTime":159.227,"body":"Welcome to dealing with HR, right?"},{"startTime":159.546,"endTime":161.986,"body":"I'm already out when as"},{"startTime":159.546,"endTime":161.986,"body":"soon as you mentioned HR,"},{"startTime":161.987,"endTime":166.987,"body":"We've hit on problem number one in the"},{"startTime":161.987,"endTime":166.987,"body":"podcast  we're going to assume that"},{"startTime":166.987,"endTime":171.697,"body":"you have a mission for the organization"},{"startTime":166.987,"endTime":171.697,"body":"and a vision for the organization"},{"startTime":171.847,"endTime":173.837,"body":"written down somewhere, right?"},{"startTime":173.927,"endTime":177.017,"body":"The same thing when we go into like the"},{"startTime":173.927,"endTime":177.017,"body":"next thing we're going to say is, okay,"},{"startTime":177.227,"endTime":180.236,"body":"as soon as you understand the mission"},{"startTime":177.227,"endTime":180.236,"body":"and vision for the organization, we're"},{"startTime":180.236,"endTime":181.846,"body":"going to assume that your product."},{"startTime":181.996,"endTime":185.326,"body":"Has values and has a vision"},{"startTime":181.996,"endTime":185.326,"body":"that you have a product vision."},{"startTime":185.476,"endTime":189.263,"body":"I guess if you're now you're on the"},{"startTime":185.476,"endTime":189.263,"body":"onboarding, the being onboarded side,"},{"startTime":189.263,"endTime":193.727,"body":"the onboardee, the onboardee like you"},{"startTime":189.263,"endTime":193.727,"body":"find out you don't have those things."},{"startTime":193.877,"endTime":195.997,"body":"You still have a resume"},{"startTime":193.877,"endTime":195.997,"body":"that's fairly updated."},{"startTime":196.017,"endTime":196.307,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":196.557,"endTime":198.127,"body":"So let's move on from there."},{"startTime":198.127,"endTime":198.787,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":198.797,"endTime":200.947,"body":"Hopefully you still have other"},{"startTime":198.797,"endTime":200.947,"body":"people offering you jobs."},{"startTime":200.947,"endTime":201.447,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":201.447,"endTime":201.777,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":201.927,"endTime":202.327,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":202.627,"endTime":206.967,"body":"I think a lot of organizations though"},{"startTime":202.627,"endTime":206.967,"body":"Tend to have something when it comes"},{"startTime":206.967,"endTime":209.067,"body":"to, you know, vision and mission."},{"startTime":209.077,"endTime":212.107,"body":"Even if it's on a plaque in"},{"startTime":209.077,"endTime":212.107,"body":"reception they, they pay lip"},{"startTime":212.107,"endTime":213.587,"body":"service for the most part, right?"},{"startTime":213.817,"endTime":216.487,"body":"When a new person joins, you"},{"startTime":213.817,"endTime":216.487,"body":"know, they're doing that when they"},{"startTime":216.487,"endTime":218.587,"body":"point at something static, right?"},{"startTime":218.617,"endTime":222.507,"body":"Whether it's a video or a website,"},{"startTime":218.617,"endTime":222.507,"body":"something that they expect you to read"},{"startTime":222.507,"endTime":225.407,"body":"and agree with, because there's no,"},{"startTime":222.507,"endTime":225.407,"body":"there's no opportunity to ask questions."},{"startTime":225.557,"endTime":227.377,"body":"That's red flag number one."},{"startTime":227.477,"endTime":230.467,"body":"And we do in this podcast have"},{"startTime":227.477,"endTime":230.467,"body":"a collection of red flags."},{"startTime":230.727,"endTime":231.677,"body":"So this is number one."},{"startTime":231.827,"endTime":235.817,"body":"Right, when that's happening, you have no"},{"startTime":231.827,"endTime":235.817,"body":"idea who to ask questions to, you've just"},{"startTime":235.827,"endTime":240.907,"body":"been given a link or a bunch of documents"},{"startTime":235.827,"endTime":240.907,"body":"by HR under the guise of onboarding."},{"startTime":241.067,"endTime":242.497,"body":"That's not onboarding, for me."},{"startTime":242.647,"endTime":243.117,"body":"Yikes."},{"startTime":243.267,"endTime":244.137,"body":"Covered a lot there."},{"startTime":244.287,"endTime":247.757,"body":"I, I mean, onboarding, like that, not"},{"startTime":244.287,"endTime":247.757,"body":"good enough, I think about like your"},{"startTime":247.767,"endTime":252.007,"body":"day to day in product management, your"},{"startTime":247.767,"endTime":252.007,"body":"team the other teams you interface"},{"startTime":252.007,"endTime":255.057,"body":"with, that you interact with, like"},{"startTime":252.007,"endTime":255.057,"body":"they're super important to you."},{"startTime":255.067,"endTime":258.717,"body":"Like that, that, that, that makes or"},{"startTime":255.067,"endTime":258.717,"body":"breaks you in product management and"},{"startTime":258.717,"endTime":262.107,"body":"like your, your cross functional team,"},{"startTime":258.717,"endTime":262.107,"body":"whether they are cross functional, I"},{"startTime":262.117,"endTime":266.117,"body":"guess we're assuming at this point in"},{"startTime":262.117,"endTime":266.117,"body":"the podcast, cause I have a development"},{"startTime":266.117,"endTime":268.797,"body":"team and I have a QA team and I have"},{"startTime":266.117,"endTime":268.797,"body":"whatever, like that just makes it."},{"startTime":268.947,"endTime":271.157,"body":"10 times worse than what it is now."},{"startTime":271.307,"endTime":273.487,"body":"But assuming that you have a cross"},{"startTime":271.307,"endTime":273.487,"body":"functional team assuming you have"},{"startTime":273.487,"endTime":276.227,"body":"a designer, assuming you have"},{"startTime":273.487,"endTime":276.227,"body":"a tech lead, assuming you have"},{"startTime":276.227,"endTime":279.687,"body":"everything like all, all the ilities"},{"startTime":276.227,"endTime":279.687,"body":"in the Marty Kagan book, right?"},{"startTime":279.707,"endTime":282.667,"body":"Assuming you can actually tick all"},{"startTime":279.707,"endTime":282.667,"body":"those boxes, hopefully you have"},{"startTime":282.667,"endTime":286.747,"body":"people that can clearly delineate that"},{"startTime":282.667,"endTime":286.747,"body":"for you, clearly detail it for you."},{"startTime":286.747,"endTime":290.997,"body":"And it's not like, well, sometimes"},{"startTime":286.747,"endTime":290.997,"body":"I don't know, you know, sort of."},{"startTime":291.197,"endTime":293.447,"body":"I think of we're on a"},{"startTime":291.197,"endTime":293.447,"body":"shared services model."},{"startTime":293.697,"endTime":296.027,"body":"You have to kind of just"},{"startTime":293.697,"endTime":296.027,"body":"beg for these people's time."},{"startTime":296.177,"endTime":298.857,"body":"Learn to speak loud because"},{"startTime":296.177,"endTime":298.857,"body":"the loudest voice wins."},{"startTime":299.007,"endTime":299.387,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":299.537,"endTime":300.517,"body":"So yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":300.517,"endTime":302.057,"body":"Look, org design has a lot to do with it."},{"startTime":302.087,"endTime":304.177,"body":"I know we're going to have a"},{"startTime":302.087,"endTime":304.177,"body":"podcast on that at some point."},{"startTime":304.327,"endTime":305.147,"body":"But definitely."},{"startTime":305.147,"endTime":306.337,"body":"So are you coming in?"},{"startTime":306.337,"endTime":307.357,"body":"You have no idea."},{"startTime":307.357,"endTime":308.697,"body":"You don't know left from right."},{"startTime":309.007,"endTime":310.047,"body":"And you need help."},{"startTime":310.197,"endTime":314.667,"body":"You need help to succeed, even to"},{"startTime":310.197,"endTime":314.667,"body":"be placed in the position where."},{"startTime":314.817,"endTime":319.087,"body":"You can run from there on and be"},{"startTime":314.817,"endTime":319.087,"body":"successful, but Typical onboarding"},{"startTime":319.237,"endTime":324.047,"body":"initiatives that most organizations"},{"startTime":319.237,"endTime":324.047,"body":"leave a lot to be desired, I feel in this"},{"startTime":324.047,"endTime":327.957,"body":"arena you know, they, they drop you in"},{"startTime":324.047,"endTime":327.957,"body":"it and you either sink or swim, that's"},{"startTime":327.967,"endTime":329.507,"body":"typically what happens in practice."},{"startTime":329.507,"endTime":331.497,"body":"And it's just not good enough."},{"startTime":331.647,"endTime":332.617,"body":"Like you said, well,"},{"startTime":332.627,"endTime":336.077,"body":"another part of this that's super"},{"startTime":332.627,"endTime":336.077,"body":"important is a stakeholder management."},{"startTime":336.157,"endTime":339.397,"body":"Because again, if you're talking about"},{"startTime":336.157,"endTime":339.397,"body":"cross functional teams, most likely"},{"startTime":339.397,"endTime":342.537,"body":"it'll be like, you may talk about like"},{"startTime":339.397,"endTime":342.537,"body":"development teams or, or, you know,"},{"startTime":342.547,"endTime":344.677,"body":"you and another, like we talked about."},{"startTime":344.827,"endTime":348.217,"body":"QA is a separate team like, well,"},{"startTime":344.827,"endTime":348.217,"body":"you gotta have QA, but you know,"},{"startTime":348.327,"endTime":351.927,"body":"the other teams that I've gone"},{"startTime":348.327,"endTime":351.927,"body":"through that, that the organization."},{"startTime":352.077,"endTime":354.597,"body":"Basically had very little power to"},{"startTime":352.077,"endTime":354.597,"body":"say, Oh, we're going to do this or"},{"startTime":354.597,"endTime":358.807,"body":"we're not going to do this is we had"},{"startTime":354.597,"endTime":358.807,"body":"a team, I was on a contract one time"},{"startTime":359.087,"endTime":363.577,"body":"where we had a penetration testing team"},{"startTime":359.087,"endTime":363.577,"body":"and your work, anything you wanted to"},{"startTime":363.577,"endTime":368.257,"body":"put out through to production before"},{"startTime":363.577,"endTime":368.257,"body":"it would be deployed, you had to get"},{"startTime":368.257,"endTime":370.407,"body":"the sign off of the pen testing team."},{"startTime":370.557,"endTime":374.177,"body":"To say it was I don't remember what"},{"startTime":370.557,"endTime":374.177,"body":"they're called security team or something."},{"startTime":374.187,"endTime":376.077,"body":"I don't remember what they"},{"startTime":374.187,"endTime":376.077,"body":"called Basically, they were"},{"startTime":376.147,"endTime":377.577,"body":"a penetration testing team."},{"startTime":377.727,"endTime":378.317,"body":"You had to get there."},{"startTime":378.317,"endTime":382.757,"body":"Okay, the the point of this category"},{"startTime":378.317,"endTime":382.757,"body":"is, in product management, regardless"},{"startTime":382.757,"endTime":385.857,"body":"of how many teams you have to go"},{"startTime":382.757,"endTime":385.857,"body":"through, it's all just stakeholder"},{"startTime":385.857,"endTime":390.677,"body":"management, you know, and it's up to"},{"startTime":385.857,"endTime":390.677,"body":"you to build relationships with people"},{"startTime":390.677,"endTime":394.197,"body":"on those teams and to understand their"},{"startTime":390.677,"endTime":394.197,"body":"work processes and stuff like that."},{"startTime":394.217,"endTime":397.207,"body":"and, and a lot of this is"},{"startTime":394.217,"endTime":397.207,"body":"heaped on the product manager."},{"startTime":397.357,"endTime":399.907,"body":"You know, and, and yeah, it is"},{"startTime":397.357,"endTime":399.907,"body":"something your product manager should"},{"startTime":399.907,"endTime":403.697,"body":"do, but as a product manager here,"},{"startTime":399.907,"endTime":403.697,"body":"like I'm kind of thinking about this"},{"startTime":403.697,"endTime":406.807,"body":"category and saying, I don't know,"},{"startTime":403.697,"endTime":406.807,"body":"it's not really product management."},{"startTime":406.862,"endTime":409.281,"body":"Can your developers help with this?"},{"startTime":409.451,"endTime":411.151,"body":"If you have a scrum master,"},{"startTime":409.451,"endTime":411.151,"body":"can they help with this?"},{"startTime":411.171,"endTime":413.661,"body":"Is there, is there ways that you can"},{"startTime":411.171,"endTime":413.661,"body":"delegate this where you don't have"},{"startTime":413.662,"endTime":416.482,"body":"to deal with so much um, definitely."},{"startTime":416.492,"endTime":419.722,"body":"That is the case that people"},{"startTime":416.492,"endTime":419.722,"body":"can help with this developers."},{"startTime":419.752,"endTime":420.342,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":420.492,"endTime":423.382,"body":"Anybody really look BAs, but these people."},{"startTime":423.532,"endTime":427.272,"body":"Don't have the influence they"},{"startTime":423.532,"endTime":427.272,"body":"need with people like app sec."},{"startTime":427.272,"endTime":428.132,"body":"You were mentioning, right?"},{"startTime":428.352,"endTime":431.592,"body":"Whoever it is, compliance,"},{"startTime":428.352,"endTime":431.592,"body":"regulatory, whatever it is."},{"startTime":431.932,"endTime":437.172,"body":"So I, as an incoming product manager,"},{"startTime":431.932,"endTime":437.172,"body":"if you could understand the lay of"},{"startTime":437.172,"endTime":439.612,"body":"the land and get to know the players."},{"startTime":439.762,"endTime":444.432,"body":"That's only going to be helpful because at"},{"startTime":439.762,"endTime":444.432,"body":"worst, what will happen is you can empower"},{"startTime":444.432,"endTime":448.242,"body":"your team and say, go reach out to, you"},{"startTime":444.432,"endTime":448.242,"body":"know, Fred over there, Mary over there,"},{"startTime":448.392,"endTime":453.032,"body":"but if they get inaction, if they get"},{"startTime":448.392,"endTime":453.032,"body":"nothing, right, then you can do something."},{"startTime":453.042,"endTime":455.982,"body":"You can talk to Fred or you can talk"},{"startTime":453.042,"endTime":455.982,"body":"to Fred's boss or whatever it is."},{"startTime":456.002,"endTime":459.382,"body":"So I think it behooves you to"},{"startTime":456.002,"endTime":459.382,"body":"understand who the players are."},{"startTime":459.532,"endTime":463.162,"body":"And that's part and parcel of the bigger,"},{"startTime":459.532,"endTime":463.162,"body":"the stakeholder management piece, right?"},{"startTime":463.312,"endTime":464.412,"body":"I feel like that is at least a"},{"startTime":464.562,"endTime":465.682,"body":"Why wouldn't you want to know that?"},{"startTime":465.682,"endTime":465.912,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":466.062,"endTime":469.262,"body":"As a product manager,"},{"startTime":466.062,"endTime":469.262,"body":"you have a wide berth."},{"startTime":469.292,"endTime":473.492,"body":"You have, you have a lot of things to"},{"startTime":469.292,"endTime":473.492,"body":"cover and, it's people that will help you"},{"startTime":473.562,"endTime":476.852,"body":"or people that will hinder you in either"},{"startTime":473.562,"endTime":476.852,"body":"case, you need to know who they are."},{"startTime":477.172,"endTime":477.512,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":477.662,"endTime":481.372,"body":"But who's going to help you introduce,"},{"startTime":477.662,"endTime":481.372,"body":"you know, who's going to help introduce"},{"startTime":481.372,"endTime":485.942,"body":"you to these people when all you've got"},{"startTime":481.372,"endTime":485.942,"body":"is a document with a few hyperlinks in it?"},{"startTime":486.092,"endTime":487.732,"body":"Well, also stakeholder management."},{"startTime":487.887,"endTime":492.367,"body":"To me,, it's the Roman Pichler two"},{"startTime":487.887,"endTime":492.367,"body":"by two that maybe in the editing and"},{"startTime":492.377,"endTime":493.637,"body":"throw up on the screen right now."},{"startTime":493.787,"endTime":496.177,"body":"Cause I'm far too lazy to do it right now."},{"startTime":496.457,"endTime":496.887,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":496.967,"endTime":502.617,"body":"That's easily far better than, you"},{"startTime":496.967,"endTime":502.617,"body":"know, either being handed or being"},{"startTime":502.617,"endTime":504.587,"body":"told to develop an elaborate RACI."},{"startTime":504.607,"endTime":504.727,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":504.747,"endTime":508.847,"body":"I can't think of more things that"},{"startTime":504.747,"endTime":508.847,"body":"are kind of contributing to more"},{"startTime":508.997,"endTime":513.157,"body":"business rigidity, the opposite of"},{"startTime":508.997,"endTime":513.157,"body":"agility, then an elaborate racing."},{"startTime":513.217,"endTime":513.627,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":513.627,"endTime":513.777,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":513.857,"endTime":517.047,"body":"I was going to say, I can't think"},{"startTime":513.857,"endTime":517.047,"body":"of a more useless artifact than"},{"startTime":517.047,"endTime":518.717,"body":"a RACI chart, like, Oh yeah,"},{"startTime":519.007,"endTime":522.577,"body":"basically all this is going to"},{"startTime":519.007,"endTime":522.577,"body":"how would decisions get made?"},{"startTime":522.727,"endTime":524.867,"body":"It's going towards that, that question."},{"startTime":525.137,"endTime":528.497,"body":"How do the decisions at"},{"startTime":525.137,"endTime":528.497,"body":"this workplace get made?"},{"startTime":528.827,"endTime":531.937,"body":"I mean, if the, if the product manager"},{"startTime":528.827,"endTime":531.937,"body":"just makes a decision based off of what"},{"startTime":531.947,"endTime":533.507,"body":"they're hearing, okay, that's fine."},{"startTime":533.657,"endTime":536.337,"body":"But also like, is there"},{"startTime":533.657,"endTime":536.337,"body":"a building frustration?"},{"startTime":536.487,"endTime":539.427,"body":"Off of the, off of, you know, every"},{"startTime":536.487,"endTime":539.427,"body":"decision that the product manager"},{"startTime":539.427,"endTime":541.947,"body":"makes, is it just building more"},{"startTime":539.427,"endTime":541.947,"body":"and more and more frustration?"},{"startTime":541.957,"endTime":543.827,"body":"Like, how are you keeping track of that?"},{"startTime":544.147,"endTime":548.687,"body":"Somebody is for sure as an incoming"},{"startTime":544.147,"endTime":548.687,"body":"product manager, you're probably"},{"startTime":548.687,"endTime":552.187,"body":"not a, you know, given a whole lot"},{"startTime":548.687,"endTime":552.187,"body":"of latitude to make those decisions"},{"startTime":552.187,"endTime":553.137,"body":"because people don't know you."},{"startTime":553.287,"endTime":553.907,"body":"They don't know you."},{"startTime":553.927,"endTime":554.667,"body":"They don't trust you."},{"startTime":554.667,"endTime":558.187,"body":"You're new and it's probably"},{"startTime":554.667,"endTime":558.187,"body":"mutual to be fair, but you're new."},{"startTime":558.237,"endTime":560.177,"body":"They hired you for a purpose, right?"},{"startTime":560.187,"endTime":563.727,"body":"So I think the onus is on the"},{"startTime":560.187,"endTime":563.727,"body":"organization to make sure that your"},{"startTime":563.737,"endTime":566.797,"body":"onboarding is As effective as possible."},{"startTime":566.997,"endTime":570.257,"body":"Even if it is inch deep"},{"startTime":566.997,"endTime":570.257,"body":"and mile wide, that's okay."},{"startTime":570.287,"endTime":574.987,"body":"Cause you can always deepen later, but"},{"startTime":570.287,"endTime":574.987,"body":"often it is inch deep and inch wide."},{"startTime":575.107,"endTime":577.117,"body":"If that, and that's the problem, right?"},{"startTime":577.267,"endTime":581.497,"body":"The problem I find in product management"},{"startTime":577.267,"endTime":581.497,"body":"is that you, you, when they finally"},{"startTime":581.507,"endTime":585.287,"body":"bring in a professional product"},{"startTime":581.507,"endTime":585.287,"body":"manager, they start to learn that"},{"startTime":585.307,"endTime":590.087,"body":"the, their knowledge of the customers,"},{"startTime":585.307,"endTime":590.087,"body":"was limited in the first place."},{"startTime":590.237,"endTime":593.637,"body":"And you bring in this person that's"},{"startTime":590.237,"endTime":593.637,"body":"starting to kind of, they're starting"},{"startTime":593.637,"endTime":596.647,"body":"to take a peek behind the curtain and"},{"startTime":593.637,"endTime":596.647,"body":"like, what does the wizard actually"},{"startTime":596.647,"endTime":597.697,"body":"look like behind that curtain?"},{"startTime":597.717,"endTime":601.867,"body":"In reality, what you're doing is"},{"startTime":597.717,"endTime":601.867,"body":"you're putting evidence to some of the"},{"startTime":601.867,"endTime":607.547,"body":"assumptions and the, the, the sticky"},{"startTime":601.867,"endTime":607.547,"body":"part of this is that may not be."},{"startTime":607.697,"endTime":610.647,"body":"Appreciated in some circles, for sure."},{"startTime":610.707,"endTime":615.647,"body":"I mean, in some circles in those same"},{"startTime":610.707,"endTime":615.647,"body":"circles, you, this product manager"},{"startTime":615.717,"endTime":618.997,"body":"would be labeled as a troublemaker"},{"startTime":615.717,"endTime":618.997,"body":"because they're asking questions now."},{"startTime":619.317,"endTime":619.997,"body":"You know, how dare you?"},{"startTime":619.997,"endTime":621.757,"body":"We've always worked this way, right?"},{"startTime":621.947,"endTime":623.337,"body":"Customers can like it or lump it."},{"startTime":623.547,"endTime":623.897,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":624.047,"endTime":624.347,"body":"It's like."},{"startTime":624.497,"endTime":628.877,"body":"You hired a professional product manager"},{"startTime":624.497,"endTime":628.877,"body":"to come and take you to a different level."},{"startTime":629.027,"endTime":629.267,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":629.337,"endTime":632.757,"body":"You've already been suffering, but you"},{"startTime":629.337,"endTime":632.757,"body":"just don't know you've been suffering."},{"startTime":632.907,"endTime":633.667,"body":"So yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":633.677,"endTime":634.137,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":634.167,"endTime":638.227,"body":"It's, it's a uphill battle from"},{"startTime":634.167,"endTime":638.227,"body":"the onboarding step onwards."},{"startTime":638.377,"endTime":641.947,"body":"So what is a you know, what is"},{"startTime":638.377,"endTime":641.947,"body":"a newly newly enlisted product"},{"startTime":641.947,"endTime":643.767,"body":"manager to do in this scenario?"},{"startTime":643.917,"endTime":647.397,"body":"If you're flipping to the side"},{"startTime":643.917,"endTime":647.397,"body":"of the person who is just coming"},{"startTime":647.397,"endTime":651.407,"body":"in, what do you do when you're"},{"startTime":647.397,"endTime":651.407,"body":"not getting what you need, right?"},{"startTime":651.557,"endTime":655.647,"body":"What you are getting is the quote"},{"startTime":651.557,"endTime":655.647,"body":"unquote official onboarding, right?"},{"startTime":655.687,"endTime":657.137,"body":"This is the formal piece."},{"startTime":657.287,"endTime":661.807,"body":"If you go through all of these in the next"},{"startTime":657.287,"endTime":661.807,"body":"day or so, now we deem you as onboarded."},{"startTime":661.957,"endTime":666.587,"body":"As opposed to, there's a parallel track,"},{"startTime":661.957,"endTime":666.587,"body":"I feel whether it's recognized or not."},{"startTime":666.637,"endTime":667.767,"body":"I've always seen it."},{"startTime":667.917,"endTime":672.367,"body":"And that is the unofficial onboarding,"},{"startTime":667.917,"endTime":672.367,"body":"which is you align with certain"},{"startTime":672.367,"endTime":676.827,"body":"individuals, you talk to them, hopefully"},{"startTime":672.367,"endTime":676.827,"body":"they'll open up and tell you how things"},{"startTime":676.877,"endTime":678.607,"body":"really work that aren't written down."},{"startTime":678.867,"endTime":681.197,"body":"And yes, it doesn't happen"},{"startTime":678.867,"endTime":681.197,"body":"at work necessarily."},{"startTime":681.347,"endTime":685.027,"body":"You know, it happens at lunch or,"},{"startTime":681.347,"endTime":685.027,"body":"you know, at the cocktails you know,"},{"startTime":685.057,"endTime":686.807,"body":"after work, but that is important."},{"startTime":687.117,"endTime":691.147,"body":"So if you're an incoming"},{"startTime":687.117,"endTime":691.147,"body":"product manager, use any avenue."},{"startTime":691.297,"endTime":694.577,"body":"You need to, in order to"},{"startTime":691.297,"endTime":694.577,"body":"unearth these things and not"},{"startTime":694.577,"endTime":695.727,"body":"all of them will be official."},{"startTime":695.927,"endTime":699.927,"body":"I would think that I would suppose"},{"startTime":695.927,"endTime":699.927,"body":"that this is an area that a lot of"},{"startTime":699.927,"endTime":703.957,"body":"people have difficulty with because"},{"startTime":699.927,"endTime":703.957,"body":"now you're talking about, like,"},{"startTime":703.967,"endTime":707.192,"body":"you're not talking about product"},{"startTime":703.967,"endTime":707.192,"body":"management from the perspective of."},{"startTime":707.342,"endTime":710.662,"body":"Software development or, you know,"},{"startTime":707.342,"endTime":710.662,"body":"putting out a certain feature and"},{"startTime":710.662,"endTime":711.982,"body":"measuring its impact or whatever."},{"startTime":712.302,"endTime":714.322,"body":"Now you're talking about"},{"startTime":712.302,"endTime":714.322,"body":"running a business."},{"startTime":714.572,"endTime":717.122,"body":"You're talking about being a GM"},{"startTime":714.572,"endTime":717.122,"body":"at this point when you're saying,"},{"startTime":717.272,"endTime":720.942,"body":"well, just do whatever you need to"},{"startTime":717.272,"endTime":720.942,"body":"do to make your business successful."},{"startTime":721.092,"endTime":725.012,"body":"You know, go to whatever meetings like"},{"startTime":721.092,"endTime":725.012,"body":"if the, if the, if the real meetings"},{"startTime":725.012,"endTime":727.672,"body":"happen over golf, like now you, now"},{"startTime":725.012,"endTime":727.672,"body":"you gotta learn how to play golf."},{"startTime":727.672,"endTime":730.652,"body":"Like, I mean, this is"},{"startTime":727.672,"endTime":730.652,"body":"like real nitty gritty."},{"startTime":730.962,"endTime":734.182,"body":"I mean, some of it could potentially"},{"startTime":730.962,"endTime":734.182,"body":"sound like, I don't know, I don't know"},{"startTime":734.182,"endTime":737.032,"body":"what I'm thinking about how I want"},{"startTime":734.182,"endTime":737.032,"body":"to say what I, what I want to say."},{"startTime":737.072,"endTime":743.822,"body":"What I want to say is , the more unrefined"},{"startTime":737.072,"endTime":743.822,"body":"the forum is where the real decisions"},{"startTime":743.822,"endTime":748.292,"body":"get made, the more you have to try to"},{"startTime":743.822,"endTime":748.292,"body":"crowbar yourself into that forum, whatever"},{"startTime":748.292,"endTime":751.592,"body":"it is, if it's golf games, okay, well,"},{"startTime":748.292,"endTime":751.592,"body":"I guess you're going to learn to play"},{"startTime":751.592,"endTime":755.722,"body":"golf if it's, you know, after happy hour"},{"startTime":751.592,"endTime":755.722,"body":"afterwards, like, I guess you're gonna."},{"startTime":755.872,"endTime":759.522,"body":"You know, like to go to happy hour"},{"startTime":755.872,"endTime":759.522,"body":"or whatever and get one drink and"},{"startTime":759.522,"endTime":762.292,"body":"then just ask for extra ice and"},{"startTime":759.522,"endTime":762.292,"body":"have it watered down or whatever."},{"startTime":762.292,"endTime":765.372,"body":"And like, I mean, there's like, this is"},{"startTime":762.292,"endTime":765.372,"body":"not like people might listen to this and"},{"startTime":765.372,"endTime":769.632,"body":"be like, well, this is not advice that I"},{"startTime":765.372,"endTime":769.632,"body":"want to take hold of and deal with, but."},{"startTime":769.782,"endTime":770.822,"body":"But you may need it."},{"startTime":770.972,"endTime":772.202,"body":"Do you want to be successful?"},{"startTime":772.212,"endTime":774.662,"body":"We can't put this in a bottle"},{"startTime":772.212,"endTime":774.662,"body":"and sell it for a thousand"},{"startTime":774.662,"endTime":776.062,"body":"dollars for a two day training."},{"startTime":776.222,"endTime":779.572,"body":"What we're about to say here, you know,"},{"startTime":776.222,"endTime":779.572,"body":"that, that's a, that's, that's about"},{"startTime":779.572,"endTime":783.752,"body":"this, like, you want to be a true general"},{"startTime":779.572,"endTime":783.752,"body":"manager, like the business owner is going"},{"startTime":783.752,"endTime":787.732,"body":"to be like, The business owners are only"},{"startTime":783.752,"endTime":787.732,"body":"going to look to hand this segment of the"},{"startTime":787.732,"endTime":791.222,"body":"business over to you when they believe"},{"startTime":787.732,"endTime":791.222,"body":"that you're the person that can do it."},{"startTime":791.222,"endTime":795.712,"body":"And  if handing off the decision making"},{"startTime":791.222,"endTime":795.712,"body":"in the form that decisions actually"},{"startTime":795.712,"endTime":800.402,"body":"get made, whatever that might be,"},{"startTime":795.712,"endTime":800.402,"body":"however distasteful you might see it,"},{"startTime":800.402,"endTime":803.392,"body":"like, I don't know, man, there's a"},{"startTime":800.402,"endTime":803.392,"body":"lot of like, there's a lot of come to"},{"startTime":803.392,"endTime":804.922,"body":"Jesus in what we're saying right now"},{"startTime":804.922,"endTime":808.082,"body":"you know, I dislike about what"},{"startTime":804.922,"endTime":808.082,"body":"we're talking about now is this"},{"startTime":808.082,"endTime":810.682,"body":"is meet them where they are,"},{"startTime":808.082,"endTime":810.682,"body":"that's what we're describing."},{"startTime":810.682,"endTime":811.51,"body":"We are."},{"startTime":811.51,"endTime":812.338,"body":"We are."},{"startTime":812.338,"endTime":815.972,"body":"Decision making, business decision"},{"startTime":812.338,"endTime":815.972,"body":"making, meet them where they are."},{"startTime":816.132,"endTime":819.952,"body":"If meet them where they, if the place"},{"startTime":816.132,"endTime":819.952,"body":"that they are is dirty and dingy,"},{"startTime":820.252,"endTime":824.182,"body":"you still gotta go there until you"},{"startTime":820.252,"endTime":824.182,"body":"can take control of the decision"},{"startTime":824.182,"endTime":829.422,"body":"making process for that product, and"},{"startTime":824.182,"endTime":829.422,"body":"then pull it out and put it into a,"},{"startTime":829.572,"endTime":831.792,"body":"you know, a better place basically."},{"startTime":831.942,"endTime":832.242,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":832.242,"endTime":834.492,"body":"And, and look, we're talking"},{"startTime":832.242,"endTime":834.492,"body":"about this from the perspective"},{"startTime":834.492,"endTime":836.622,"body":"of a new person joining, right?"},{"startTime":836.627,"endTime":836.867,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":836.892,"endTime":840.102,"body":"So definitely like pull on"},{"startTime":836.892,"endTime":840.102,"body":"your glosses, put on your, oh"},{"startTime":840.102,"endTime":841.872,"body":"boy, put on your long gloves."},{"startTime":842.022,"endTime":845.172,"body":"You are coming in and, and"},{"startTime":842.022,"endTime":845.172,"body":"you are not even swimming."},{"startTime":845.352,"endTime":845.772,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":845.952,"endTime":847.873,"body":"The tide is going, you know, against you."},{"startTime":848.023,"endTime":850.963,"body":"You have to do all of these"},{"startTime":848.023,"endTime":850.963,"body":"things and any of these things."},{"startTime":850.963,"endTime":852.163,"body":"Too much mud to be swimming."},{"startTime":852.313,"endTime":852.493,"body":"There."},{"startTime":852.493,"endTime":853.243,"body":"There is, yeah."},{"startTime":853.393,"endTime":853.484,"body":"You're waiting."},{"startTime":853.489,"endTime":853.848,"body":"There's a lot of mud."},{"startTime":853.998,"endTime":855.818,"body":"Keep that snorkel handy too, then I guess."},{"startTime":855.818,"endTime":856.788,"body":"And the resume updated."},{"startTime":856.868,"endTime":857.778,"body":"And the resume updated."},{"startTime":857.858,"endTime":861.768,"body":"But you look, you have to do this,"},{"startTime":857.858,"endTime":861.768,"body":"because if you don't do this, and"},{"startTime":861.768,"endTime":865.878,"body":"you're just simply hagging along"},{"startTime":861.768,"endTime":865.878,"body":"or moseying along, don't forget."},{"startTime":866.028,"endTime":866.908,"body":"You're a new person."},{"startTime":866.918,"endTime":870.268,"body":"You only get a finite amount"},{"startTime":866.918,"endTime":870.268,"body":"of time that's granted to"},{"startTime":870.268,"endTime":872.368,"body":"you to make a difference."},{"startTime":872.518,"endTime":876.258,"body":"It's not the difference you make,"},{"startTime":872.518,"endTime":876.258,"body":"it's the, it's the perception of the"},{"startTime":876.258,"endTime":878.338,"body":"difference you're seen as making."},{"startTime":878.488,"endTime":879.978,"body":"That, I believe in that, right?"},{"startTime":879.988,"endTime":884.068,"body":"So if you're not seen to be or"},{"startTime":879.988,"endTime":884.068,"body":"perceived to be making a difference"},{"startTime":884.078,"endTime":887.408,"body":"in a short period of time,"},{"startTime":884.078,"endTime":887.408,"body":"you're basically not effective."},{"startTime":887.558,"endTime":892.288,"body":"And we'll get questioned and we'll"},{"startTime":887.558,"endTime":892.288,"body":"appear in someone's crosshairs."},{"startTime":892.608,"endTime":897.038,"body":"So yeah, do all of the things that"},{"startTime":892.608,"endTime":897.038,"body":"you need to do in order to get beyond"},{"startTime":897.098,"endTime":901.157,"body":"the official onboarding protocols"},{"startTime":897.098,"endTime":901.157,"body":"or whatever you want to call them."},{"startTime":901.158,"endTime":902.408,"body":"And if it means, yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":902.408,"endTime":905.898,"body":"If it means going to, you know, weekend"},{"startTime":902.408,"endTime":905.898,"body":"golf games, whatever it is, do it."},{"startTime":906.048,"endTime":907.558,"body":"You don't have to necessarily play golf."},{"startTime":907.598,"endTime":908.368,"body":"Just go do it."},{"startTime":908.718,"endTime":909.458,"body":"Be vulnerable."},{"startTime":909.468,"endTime":911.468,"body":"So I don't know how to"},{"startTime":909.468,"endTime":911.468,"body":"play, but you know, I'll go."},{"startTime":911.618,"endTime":913.238,"body":"Yeah, you're talking"},{"startTime":911.618,"endTime":913.238,"body":"product management now."},{"startTime":913.238,"endTime":916.828,"body":"So again, it's like, what, what,"},{"startTime":913.238,"endTime":916.828,"body":"what type of product manager?"},{"startTime":916.978,"endTime":918.388,"body":"Are you in this instance?"},{"startTime":918.538,"endTime":922.308,"body":"Like again, if you're in a giant company,"},{"startTime":918.538,"endTime":922.308,"body":"maybe this, maybe the decisions get"},{"startTime":922.318,"endTime":925.638,"body":"handed down to you and you're just"},{"startTime":922.318,"endTime":925.638,"body":"kind of playing the role like, Oh, we"},{"startTime":925.648,"endTime":926.938,"body":"haven't done that in product management."},{"startTime":927.058,"endTime":928.038,"body":"Play the role."},{"startTime":928.038,"endTime":928.378,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":928.528,"endTime":929.108,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":929.158,"endTime":929.958,"body":"I feel good."},{"startTime":930.108,"endTime":931.098,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":931.098,"endTime":934.548,"body":"I mean, effectively you're a"},{"startTime":931.098,"endTime":934.548,"body":"glorified or to take her at that."},{"startTime":934.768,"endTime":935.018,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":935.018,"endTime":935.398,"body":"Backlog."},{"startTime":935.458,"endTime":936.188,"body":"Backlog manager."},{"startTime":936.188,"endTime":936.468,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":936.468,"endTime":941.588,"body":"We have a backlog massager, but I mean,"},{"startTime":936.468,"endTime":941.588,"body":"like in that case you still have, you"},{"startTime":941.588,"endTime":946.128,"body":"still have The responsibility to track"},{"startTime":941.588,"endTime":946.128,"body":"where the real decisions are getting made."},{"startTime":946.278,"endTime":949.418,"body":"And if you don't have visibility to"},{"startTime":946.278,"endTime":949.418,"body":"that forum, like, well, welcome to your"},{"startTime":949.478,"endTime":954.128,"body":"new job, finding visibility, finding"},{"startTime":949.478,"endTime":954.128,"body":"where it is and figuring out that form."},{"startTime":954.278,"endTime":957.358,"body":"part of what we're talking"},{"startTime":954.278,"endTime":957.358,"body":"about is figuring out how the"},{"startTime":957.368,"endTime":962.548,"body":"org sets goals and how you can"},{"startTime":957.368,"endTime":962.548,"body":"align to those goals like that."},{"startTime":962.558,"endTime":963.738,"body":"That's, that's this category."},{"startTime":963.828,"endTime":968.748,"body":"So the product leader would want you"},{"startTime":963.828,"endTime":968.748,"body":"would want to set goals, product goals."},{"startTime":969.048,"endTime":971.548,"body":"And to make sure that what"},{"startTime":969.048,"endTime":971.548,"body":"you're doing is in alignment."},{"startTime":971.898,"endTime":974.678,"body":"So if you're the employee, you want"},{"startTime":971.898,"endTime":974.678,"body":"to make sure that what you're doing"},{"startTime":974.688,"endTime":978.168,"body":"is in alignment with the product goals"},{"startTime":974.688,"endTime":978.168,"body":"is in alignment with what the product"},{"startTime":978.228,"endTime":979.828,"body":"leader thinks you should be doing."},{"startTime":979.978,"endTime":981.798,"body":"That's, that's goal setting and alignment."},{"startTime":982.028,"endTime":985.458,"body":"And also like alignment is like a, one"},{"startTime":982.028,"endTime":985.458,"body":"of those four letter words that really"},{"startTime":985.458,"endTime":987.478,"body":"like, I mean, it can be used and abused."},{"startTime":987.508,"endTime":990.198,"body":"I don't really know, you know what"},{"startTime":987.508,"endTime":990.198,"body":"it means, but It's up to you to"},{"startTime":990.208,"endTime":993.168,"body":"figure out how to craft alignment."},{"startTime":993.318,"endTime":997.418,"body":"Go create that with them because they"},{"startTime":993.318,"endTime":997.418,"body":"may just simply be from a school of"},{"startTime":997.418,"endTime":1001.018,"body":"thought where they say, Here's somebody"},{"startTime":997.418,"endTime":1001.018,"body":"new I'm going to set out arbitrary"},{"startTime":1001.018,"endTime":1004.078,"body":"goals for this person 30, 60, 90 days."},{"startTime":1004.098,"endTime":1004.268,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1004.418,"endTime":1009.038,"body":"And what they prescribe within those"},{"startTime":1004.418,"endTime":1009.038,"body":"categories might align better to just"},{"startTime":1009.188,"endTime":1014.618,"body":"practices as opposed to does, does the"},{"startTime":1009.188,"endTime":1014.618,"body":"person really understand our customers?"},{"startTime":1014.768,"endTime":1016.278,"body":"You know, how often do they talk to them?"},{"startTime":1016.298,"endTime":1017.108,"body":"Things like that."},{"startTime":1017.258,"endTime":1018.428,"body":"You may not find them there."},{"startTime":1018.478,"endTime":1022.488,"body":"You may find things like you know, does"},{"startTime":1018.478,"endTime":1022.488,"body":"this person work well with their teams?"},{"startTime":1022.528,"endTime":1024.028,"body":"Are they attending the team meetings?"},{"startTime":1024.028,"endTime":1028.958,"body":"I mean, all the practices, if you're"},{"startTime":1024.028,"endTime":1028.958,"body":"seeing that then be vocal, co create your"},{"startTime":1028.988,"endTime":1031.968,"body":"own agenda with the product leader, right?"},{"startTime":1032.118,"endTime":1035.588,"body":"I've seen some pretty weak product"},{"startTime":1032.118,"endTime":1035.588,"body":"leaders, unfortunately in my time where"},{"startTime":1035.618,"endTime":1037.808,"body":"they just don't think beyond practices."},{"startTime":1037.958,"endTime":1042.478,"body":"Well, I mean that, that the product"},{"startTime":1037.958,"endTime":1042.478,"body":"leader role, first of all, is"},{"startTime":1042.598,"endTime":1047.428,"body":"generally speaking, it's a, it's not"},{"startTime":1042.598,"endTime":1047.428,"body":"really new, like new meaning like a"},{"startTime":1047.428,"endTime":1050.058,"body":"new position because uh, management."},{"startTime":1050.208,"endTime":1054.058,"body":"In, in and of itself has always been,"},{"startTime":1050.208,"endTime":1054.058,"body":"you know, has been around for a hundred"},{"startTime":1054.058,"endTime":1058.598,"body":"plus years, the idea of management, but"},{"startTime":1054.058,"endTime":1058.598,"body":"the idea of a product leader in, in the,"},{"startTime":1058.628,"endTime":1063.248,"body":"in like the Marty Cagan term of product"},{"startTime":1058.628,"endTime":1063.248,"body":"leader, that is pretty new because"},{"startTime":1063.248,"endTime":1068.368,"body":"it, it, it, what it's basically saying"},{"startTime":1063.248,"endTime":1068.368,"body":"is , you have somebody who knows what a"},{"startTime":1068.518,"endTime":1072.968,"body":"product manager should be doing and is"},{"startTime":1068.518,"endTime":1072.968,"body":"coaching them in terms of how they can"},{"startTime":1072.968,"endTime":1075.783,"body":"improve their craft of product management."},{"startTime":1075.933,"endTime":1078.643,"body":"And the problem with that is it"},{"startTime":1075.933,"endTime":1078.643,"body":"assumes that the person doing"},{"startTime":1078.643,"endTime":1082.983,"body":"the coaching actually understands"},{"startTime":1078.643,"endTime":1082.983,"body":"product management and the problem"},{"startTime":1082.983,"endTime":1086.543,"body":"with that is my experience has been"},{"startTime":1082.983,"endTime":1086.543,"body":"the higher up in the organization."},{"startTime":1086.543,"endTime":1090.493,"body":"You get the less that person"},{"startTime":1086.543,"endTime":1090.493,"body":"actually understands the"},{"startTime":1090.493,"endTime":1091.743,"body":"role of product management."},{"startTime":1091.893,"endTime":1095.103,"body":"Usually when you get to the chief"},{"startTime":1091.893,"endTime":1095.103,"body":"product officer level, those people"},{"startTime":1095.113,"endTime":1096.723,"body":"have never worked as a product manager."},{"startTime":1096.873,"endTime":1098.313,"body":"That is gold right there."},{"startTime":1098.363,"endTime":1099.053,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1099.053,"endTime":1103.453,"body":"I agree that that's the, that's"},{"startTime":1099.053,"endTime":1103.453,"body":"the prevailing majority of product"},{"startTime":1103.453,"endTime":1107.433,"body":"leaders that have never actually"},{"startTime":1103.453,"endTime":1107.433,"body":"worked as that, not, not necessarily"},{"startTime":1107.433,"endTime":1112.213,"body":"everybody, but a lot of product owners,"},{"startTime":1107.433,"endTime":1112.213,"body":"CPOs, they got ordained that title."},{"startTime":1112.213,"endTime":1115.283,"body":"They got into that job"},{"startTime":1112.213,"endTime":1115.283,"body":"without having to actually."},{"startTime":1115.433,"endTime":1118.303,"body":"Perform the roles as"},{"startTime":1115.433,"endTime":1118.303,"body":"product managers, right?"},{"startTime":1118.453,"endTime":1120.773,"body":"Well, I mean, like now we're at a"},{"startTime":1118.453,"endTime":1120.773,"body":"point of the podcast where I don't"},{"startTime":1120.773,"endTime":1123.213,"body":"even know where we're going to,"},{"startTime":1120.773,"endTime":1123.213,"body":"where we're going to go from now."},{"startTime":1123.233,"endTime":1126.333,"body":"Cause like now we're talking about"},{"startTime":1123.233,"endTime":1126.333,"body":"people who get hired in at the top of the"},{"startTime":1126.333,"endTime":1132.432,"body":"organization, they get hired in because"},{"startTime":1126.333,"endTime":1132.432,"body":"they look like slash sound like slash"},{"startTime":1132.673,"endTime":1137.983,"body":"think like the C-level executives or"},{"startTime":1132.673,"endTime":1137.983,"body":"the c-level executive just came into the"},{"startTime":1137.983,"endTime":1139.993,"body":"organization and brought along with them."},{"startTime":1140.143,"endTime":1140.713,"body":"Sure, yeah."},{"startTime":1140.713,"endTime":1141.403,"body":"A bunch of people."},{"startTime":1141.403,"endTime":1141.493,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1141.583,"endTime":1143.083,"body":"That, you know, were his Yeah."},{"startTime":1143.083,"endTime":1144.493,"body":"Inner circle and you were one of them."},{"startTime":1144.643,"endTime":1145.333,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1145.338,"endTime":1146.713,"body":"You're, you're my buddy"},{"startTime":1145.338,"endTime":1146.713,"body":"and, you know, yeah."},{"startTime":1146.713,"endTime":1149.563,"body":"You've read a product blog and"},{"startTime":1146.713,"endTime":1149.563,"body":"we play golf on the weekends."},{"startTime":1149.563,"endTime":1152.003,"body":"You, you've read inspired and"},{"startTime":1149.563,"endTime":1152.003,"body":"like now you're the product."},{"startTime":1152.263,"endTime":1154.953,"body":"Person, even though your background"},{"startTime":1152.263,"endTime":1154.953,"body":"has nothing to do with product."},{"startTime":1155.273,"endTime":1159.913,"body":"Yeah, but I mean, I mean, like, but"},{"startTime":1155.273,"endTime":1159.913,"body":"sadly, like I easily 80 percent of"},{"startTime":1159.913,"endTime":1163.413,"body":"the chief product officers I've seen"},{"startTime":1159.913,"endTime":1163.413,"body":"in my career have been like that."},{"startTime":1163.563,"endTime":1164.273,"body":"That's a big number."},{"startTime":1164.283,"endTime":1165.103,"body":"They have no experience."},{"startTime":1165.253,"endTime":1167.373,"body":"It's disappointing to say"},{"startTime":1165.253,"endTime":1167.373,"body":"that it's a big number."},{"startTime":1167.523,"endTime":1169.233,"body":"80 percent you're probably right."},{"startTime":1169.523,"endTime":1173.573,"body":"I'd say, I mean, maybe it's, I mean,"},{"startTime":1169.523,"endTime":1173.573,"body":"maybe people like, if your experience"},{"startTime":1173.573,"endTime":1177.053,"body":"tells you otherwise, like, please"},{"startTime":1173.573,"endTime":1177.053,"body":"comment on this podcast, like, I would,"},{"startTime":1177.073,"endTime":1180.993,"body":"I would like to hear from you about"},{"startTime":1177.073,"endTime":1180.993,"body":"this category, but again, I would easily"},{"startTime":1180.993,"endTime":1186.173,"body":"put money on a solid 75%, you know,"},{"startTime":1180.993,"endTime":1186.173,"body":"whatever, 80 percent same, very close."},{"startTime":1186.493,"endTime":1191.743,"body":"But it's been way more than 50,"},{"startTime":1186.493,"endTime":1191.743,"body":"50, way more than 50, 50 is just,"},{"startTime":1191.753,"endTime":1195.813,"body":"the people that I've seen in that"},{"startTime":1191.753,"endTime":1195.813,"body":"role, they would, because they have"},{"startTime":1195.813,"endTime":1197.493,"body":"no product management experience."},{"startTime":1197.493,"endTime":1200.493,"body":"They would never know what a"},{"startTime":1197.493,"endTime":1200.493,"body":"good product manager looks like."},{"startTime":1200.673,"endTime":1203.043,"body":"And maybe they know what a"},{"startTime":1200.673,"endTime":1203.043,"body":"good product leader looks like."},{"startTime":1203.193,"endTime":1206.433,"body":"So I guess you could say, well, maybe"},{"startTime":1203.193,"endTime":1206.433,"body":"if they're real, they've been a really"},{"startTime":1206.433,"endTime":1209.953,"body":"good salesperson or a really good chief"},{"startTime":1206.433,"endTime":1209.953,"body":"of operations in the past or something"},{"startTime":1209.953,"endTime":1215.013,"body":"like that, they can hire good product"},{"startTime":1209.953,"endTime":1215.013,"body":"people and it doesn't exactly translate"},{"startTime":1215.013,"endTime":1218.503,"body":"because they don't really need to know"},{"startTime":1215.013,"endTime":1218.503,"body":"what it takes to build a good product."},{"startTime":1218.653,"endTime":1219.873,"body":"To hire good product people."},{"startTime":1220.023,"endTime":1223.293,"body":"It's going to be a bit hard if they're not"},{"startTime":1220.023,"endTime":1223.293,"body":"directly involved in the hiring process."},{"startTime":1223.293,"endTime":1223.553,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1223.603,"endTime":1225.683,"body":"You could say that for CEOs as well."},{"startTime":1225.683,"endTime":1229.913,"body":"Well, how are you going to be a CEO"},{"startTime":1225.683,"endTime":1229.913,"body":"and hire a good chief revenue officer"},{"startTime":1229.913,"endTime":1233.453,"body":"or chief operations officer as a CEO?"},{"startTime":1233.733,"endTime":1237.093,"body":"Because you've never been a chief"},{"startTime":1233.733,"endTime":1237.093,"body":"operations, the chief, whatever."},{"startTime":1237.103,"endTime":1242.153,"body":"And they mean, I could come along"},{"startTime":1237.103,"endTime":1242.153,"body":"with that type of, you know, pushback."},{"startTime":1242.303,"endTime":1247.593,"body":"But only so far, I mean, even if you've"},{"startTime":1242.303,"endTime":1247.593,"body":"not been a CFO and you're a CEO, you've"},{"startTime":1247.593,"endTime":1252.523,"body":"worked with, you know, CFOs, hopefully"},{"startTime":1247.593,"endTime":1252.523,"body":"over time, you should be able to tell"},{"startTime":1252.543,"endTime":1254.772,"body":"apart a CFO that just speaks the speech."},{"startTime":1254.933,"endTime":1257.473,"body":"The talk and you know, versus"},{"startTime":1254.933,"endTime":1257.473,"body":"somebody who's done the work."},{"startTime":1257.623,"endTime":1258.203,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":1258.203,"endTime":1264.343,"body":"So coming back to the the category was or"},{"startTime":1258.203,"endTime":1264.343,"body":"organizational goal setting and alignment."},{"startTime":1264.493,"endTime":1268.683,"body":"So how, how do you know, how do you know"},{"startTime":1264.493,"endTime":1268.683,"body":"if you're, again, if you're a, if you're"},{"startTime":1268.683,"endTime":1272.733,"body":"a product leader and you're hiring in a"},{"startTime":1268.683,"endTime":1272.733,"body":"product manager for the first time, how"},{"startTime":1272.733,"endTime":1275.183,"body":"do you know that they're doing a good job?"},{"startTime":1275.333,"endTime":1278.483,"body":"Coming online with organizational"},{"startTime":1275.333,"endTime":1278.483,"body":"goal setting and alignment with"},{"startTime":1278.483,"endTime":1279.793,"body":"your organizational goal setting."},{"startTime":1279.943,"endTime":1282.783,"body":"Do they even understand your"},{"startTime":1279.943,"endTime":1282.783,"body":"organizational goals, right?"},{"startTime":1282.803,"endTime":1286.373,"body":"For this is again, thinking from the"},{"startTime":1282.803,"endTime":1286.373,"body":"product leaders perspective, thinking from"},{"startTime":1286.373,"endTime":1291.603,"body":"the the newly ordained PM's perspective,"},{"startTime":1286.373,"endTime":1291.603,"body":"it's how effective has, have the"},{"startTime":1291.613,"endTime":1293.553,"body":"goals being communicated to me, right?"},{"startTime":1293.583,"endTime":1294.573,"body":"Do I see that?"},{"startTime":1294.623,"endTime":1296.233,"body":"Do I, do I buy into it?"},{"startTime":1296.383,"endTime":1300.063,"body":"And there's something going"},{"startTime":1296.383,"endTime":1300.063,"body":"on here, which, which I think."},{"startTime":1300.213,"endTime":1303.063,"body":"applies generally, not"},{"startTime":1300.213,"endTime":1303.063,"body":"just for product managers."},{"startTime":1303.213,"endTime":1307.643,"body":"The product leader is here a, the"},{"startTime":1303.213,"endTime":1307.643,"body":"leader who is actually, you know"},{"startTime":1307.693,"endTime":1309.473,"body":"explaining the purpose, et cetera."},{"startTime":1309.623,"endTime":1311.166,"body":"People buy into the person."},{"startTime":1311.316,"endTime":1313.216,"body":"First, before they buy into their vision."},{"startTime":1313.216,"endTime":1318.596,"body":"So if the product leader is of"},{"startTime":1313.216,"endTime":1318.596,"body":"the, you know, the characteristics"},{"startTime":1318.606,"endTime":1321.456,"body":"that they portray are more like"},{"startTime":1318.606,"endTime":1321.456,"body":"you will do this, you will do this."},{"startTime":1321.476,"endTime":1325.576,"body":"They're kind of like setting out, let's"},{"startTime":1321.476,"endTime":1325.576,"body":"say in our example, they'll be setting out"},{"startTime":1325.726,"endTime":1328.716,"body":"goals in terms of percentages, etc, etc."},{"startTime":1328.976,"endTime":1332.846,"body":"Revenue numbers, whatever it is, and"},{"startTime":1328.976,"endTime":1332.846,"body":"not really talking about the other"},{"startTime":1332.846,"endTime":1336.296,"body":"things, right, which is, you know,"},{"startTime":1332.846,"endTime":1336.296,"body":"here's our purpose for being, here's"},{"startTime":1336.296,"endTime":1339.296,"body":"our customer base, here's who we"},{"startTime":1336.296,"endTime":1339.296,"body":"serve, here's why we do what we do."},{"startTime":1339.606,"endTime":1342.536,"body":"If they're not doing that,"},{"startTime":1339.606,"endTime":1342.536,"body":"People buy into the person first"},{"startTime":1342.586,"endTime":1344.126,"body":"and then their vision next."},{"startTime":1344.196,"endTime":1346.646,"body":"And in this case, it's"},{"startTime":1344.196,"endTime":1346.646,"body":"a lose lose situation."},{"startTime":1346.796,"endTime":1351.706,"body":"Yeah, while you were explaining that, I"},{"startTime":1346.796,"endTime":1351.706,"body":"was kind of thinking in my head if the"},{"startTime":1351.716,"endTime":1354.736,"body":"organizational goals are not written"},{"startTime":1351.716,"endTime":1354.736,"body":"down somewhere, it's going to be super"},{"startTime":1354.736,"endTime":1358.526,"body":"difficult for an onboarding employee"},{"startTime":1354.736,"endTime":1358.526,"body":"to, you know, figure out what they are."},{"startTime":1358.676,"endTime":1363.486,"body":"You know, to, to, to vet out what they"},{"startTime":1358.676,"endTime":1363.486,"body":"are and then to make their goals and their"},{"startTime":1363.496,"endTime":1366.606,"body":"product goals and their, you know, product"},{"startTime":1363.496,"endTime":1366.606,"body":"vision and all that kind of follow it."},{"startTime":1366.606,"endTime":1369.746,"body":"It like, it's a lot easier if"},{"startTime":1366.606,"endTime":1369.746,"body":"you're the product leader in"},{"startTime":1369.746,"endTime":1371.216,"body":"this case, it's a lot easier."},{"startTime":1371.366,"endTime":1376.866,"body":"To follow your product leaders lead, then"},{"startTime":1371.366,"endTime":1376.866,"body":"to kind of assume you're following their"},{"startTime":1376.866,"endTime":1379.886,"body":"lead, but really be kind of making it up"},{"startTime":1376.866,"endTime":1379.886,"body":"on your own and then kind of adjusting."},{"startTime":1379.886,"endTime":1381.686,"body":"Cause you have a bunch of"},{"startTime":1379.886,"endTime":1381.686,"body":"stakeholders are beating you up."},{"startTime":1381.686,"endTime":1384.536,"body":"Like, that's just not a good"},{"startTime":1381.686,"endTime":1384.536,"body":"situation at that point."},{"startTime":1384.816,"endTime":1387.926,"body":"I feel like we started with this category"},{"startTime":1384.816,"endTime":1387.926,"body":"talking about like, Oh, how do I know"},{"startTime":1387.926,"endTime":1390.326,"body":"that my people are following my lead?"},{"startTime":1390.346,"endTime":1391.186,"body":"Well, I don't know."},{"startTime":1391.186,"endTime":1396.106,"body":"Are you, are you like, are you laying"},{"startTime":1391.186,"endTime":1396.106,"body":"out a good story for them to follow?"},{"startTime":1396.366,"endTime":1397.486,"body":"Are you being a good."},{"startTime":1397.636,"endTime":1399.246,"body":"Are you being as a leader?"},{"startTime":1399.316,"endTime":1401.396,"body":"Are you being easy to follow?"},{"startTime":1401.686,"endTime":1403.386,"body":"Are you being very hard to follow?"},{"startTime":1403.536,"endTime":1406.766,"body":"Yeah, are you being obtuse right"},{"startTime":1403.536,"endTime":1406.766,"body":"whether it's on purpose or not?"},{"startTime":1406.766,"endTime":1408.496,"body":"I'm not i'm not going there, right?"},{"startTime":1408.796,"endTime":1414.526,"body":"But if you're being obtuse or difficult"},{"startTime":1408.796,"endTime":1414.526,"body":"to follow not on purpose You know, you"},{"startTime":1414.676,"endTime":1416.676,"body":"you don't even this is the danger right?"},{"startTime":1416.676,"endTime":1420.446,"body":"You don't even know that you're"},{"startTime":1416.676,"endTime":1420.446,"body":"coming across as, I'm going"},{"startTime":1420.446,"endTime":1421.936,"body":"to try this, obfuscatory."},{"startTime":1422.226,"endTime":1424.416,"body":"You're, anyway, you're not being clear."},{"startTime":1424.436,"endTime":1428.726,"body":"Your purpose isn't clear and chances"},{"startTime":1424.436,"endTime":1428.726,"body":"are if that isn't happening, it's"},{"startTime":1428.726,"endTime":1431.866,"body":"because it's not clear to you"},{"startTime":1428.726,"endTime":1431.866,"body":"yourself as a product leader."},{"startTime":1432.016,"endTime":1436.846,"body":"You yourself don't have that clarity"},{"startTime":1432.016,"endTime":1436.846,"body":"and then how can you expect to,  have"},{"startTime":1436.846,"endTime":1441.246,"body":"someone else Understand it because"},{"startTime":1436.846,"endTime":1441.246,"body":"you don't really have it up here."},{"startTime":1441.396,"endTime":1442.736,"body":"So it goes up another level."},{"startTime":1442.886,"endTime":1446.156,"body":"You just outlined like a three"},{"startTime":1442.886,"endTime":1446.156,"body":"quarters of a product management"},{"startTime":1446.156,"endTime":1447.046,"body":"challenges right there."},{"startTime":1447.046,"endTime":1450.406,"body":"And that statement is like, Oh,"},{"startTime":1447.046,"endTime":1450.406,"body":"please tell me what business"},{"startTime":1450.406,"endTime":1453.356,"body":"goals or organizational strategy"},{"startTime":1450.406,"endTime":1453.356,"body":"we're supposed to follow."},{"startTime":1453.386,"endTime":1456.856,"body":"And then business leaders throw"},{"startTime":1453.386,"endTime":1456.856,"body":"their hands up and say what I don't"},{"startTime":1456.956,"endTime":1458.836,"body":"Oh, well, they point at targets."},{"startTime":1458.986,"endTime":1459.226,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1459.231,"endTime":1460.156,"body":"This is what we're supposed to do."},{"startTime":1460.186,"endTime":1460.426,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1460.431,"endTime":1460.902,"body":"Year on year."},{"startTime":1461.052,"endTime":1462.497,"body":"You, MRI, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":1462.497,"endTime":1464.747,"body":"25% more revenue than last year."},{"startTime":1465.017,"endTime":1465.677,"body":"That's useless."},{"startTime":1465.767,"endTime":1466.487,"body":"Useless."},{"startTime":1466.547,"endTime":1467.717,"body":"Totally useless."},{"startTime":1467.717,"endTime":1469.727,"body":"I wanna move on quickly because,"},{"startTime":1467.717,"endTime":1469.727,"body":"because I'm only gonna get"},{"startTime":1469.732,"endTime":1470.837,"body":"frustrated by this category,"},{"startTime":1471.027,"endTime":1473.937,"body":"A lot of this will be expressed"},{"startTime":1471.027,"endTime":1473.937,"body":"when you can't build a roadmap."},{"startTime":1473.947,"endTime":1476.647,"body":"Like, if you don't have a certain,"},{"startTime":1473.947,"endTime":1476.647,"body":"if you don't have a strategy, you"},{"startTime":1476.647,"endTime":1479.327,"body":"don't have goals, your business"},{"startTime":1476.647,"endTime":1479.327,"body":"doesn't have a strategy, your business"},{"startTime":1479.327,"endTime":1482.137,"body":"doesn't have a goal, this can be"},{"startTime":1479.327,"endTime":1482.137,"body":"very difficult to build a roadmap."},{"startTime":1482.187,"endTime":1486.442,"body":"Now, I'm gonna pivot, To try to stay away"},{"startTime":1482.187,"endTime":1486.442,"body":"from the, like, the bottom of the barrel"},{"startTime":1486.442,"endTime":1490.732,"body":"scenario, the, the, the worst 25% you"},{"startTime":1486.442,"endTime":1490.732,"body":"know, the, or the, I'm sorry, the worst"},{"startTime":1490.732,"endTime":1494.752,"body":"20 percent of cases that will take 80"},{"startTime":1490.732,"endTime":1494.752,"body":"percent of our conversation and effort,"},{"startTime":1494.792,"endTime":1497.772,"body":"I want to stay away from that for a"},{"startTime":1494.792,"endTime":1497.772,"body":"second, and I want to pivot to the best."},{"startTime":1497.922,"endTime":1502.262,"body":"80 percent case, which says that"},{"startTime":1497.922,"endTime":1502.262,"body":"you do have goals and I can build a"},{"startTime":1502.262,"endTime":1506.372,"body":"roadmap and a, and a product portfolio"},{"startTime":1502.262,"endTime":1506.372,"body":"off of that, off of those goals."},{"startTime":1506.722,"endTime":1510.562,"body":"So the first thing, if I'm a product"},{"startTime":1506.722,"endTime":1510.562,"body":"leader and I'm hiring you welcome to"},{"startTime":1510.572,"endTime":1515.232,"body":"Brian Ohm Ohm and then you're joining us."},{"startTime":1515.382,"endTime":1517.942,"body":"I'm going to ask you, like, the first"},{"startTime":1515.382,"endTime":1517.942,"body":"thing I'm going to say is, Hey, in your"},{"startTime":1517.942,"endTime":1521.452,"body":"first, you know, maybe not your first 30"},{"startTime":1517.942,"endTime":1521.452,"body":"days, but you're definitely your first"},{"startTime":1521.462,"endTime":1525.592,"body":"90 inside that window you're going to own"},{"startTime":1521.462,"endTime":1525.592,"body":"the roadmap at some point, you're going"},{"startTime":1525.592,"endTime":1529.232,"body":"to take over the roadmap is going to be,"},{"startTime":1525.592,"endTime":1529.232,"body":"it's not going to be my roadmap, I hand"},{"startTime":1529.232,"endTime":1532.562,"body":"it to you and you have to figure out"},{"startTime":1529.232,"endTime":1532.562,"body":"what's on the roadmap and kind of vet it."},{"startTime":1532.562,"endTime":1537.052,"body":"And, you know, Whatever along the way"},{"startTime":1532.562,"endTime":1537.052,"body":"after 90 days, I'm going to look to"},{"startTime":1537.052,"endTime":1539.372,"body":"say, well, it's, it's your roadmap now."},{"startTime":1539.682,"endTime":1544.532,"body":"You need to lobby why everything"},{"startTime":1539.682,"endTime":1544.532,"body":"is in the position it's in and why"},{"startTime":1544.532,"endTime":1547.962,"body":"it's there and the actual writing"},{"startTime":1544.532,"endTime":1547.962,"body":"the things that are there and"},{"startTime":1547.962,"endTime":1549.202,"body":"then telling me why they're there."},{"startTime":1549.352,"endTime":1549.782,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1550.012,"endTime":1551.512,"body":"Why they're there, they're there."},{"startTime":1551.672,"endTime":1553.332,"body":"What a terrible way of explaining that."},{"startTime":1553.372,"endTime":1558.112,"body":"Anyway, you get my point, the current"},{"startTime":1553.372,"endTime":1558.112,"body":"product offering, the potential new"},{"startTime":1558.122,"endTime":1562.432,"body":"product offering, the potential new"},{"startTime":1558.122,"endTime":1562.432,"body":"markets we can move into, how we're"},{"startTime":1562.432,"endTime":1563.442,"body":"going to deal with competition."},{"startTime":1563.452,"endTime":1567.762,"body":"Like all this expressed via the"},{"startTime":1563.452,"endTime":1567.762,"body":"roadmap, like it's now over to you."},{"startTime":1568.062,"endTime":1572.412,"body":"So what is like as a new employee, you"},{"startTime":1568.062,"endTime":1572.412,"body":"don't know anything about our roadmap."},{"startTime":1572.562,"endTime":1577.032,"body":"Out to 90 days, 180 days, where you've"},{"startTime":1572.562,"endTime":1577.032,"body":"now taking complete ownership of the"},{"startTime":1577.032,"endTime":1579.612,"body":"roadmap, walk me through that process."},{"startTime":1579.632,"endTime":1584.632,"body":"How would you come on board as an employee"},{"startTime":1579.632,"endTime":1584.632,"body":"again, assuming we have good practices, we"},{"startTime":1584.632,"endTime":1586.612,"body":"have a strategy, we have a product vision."},{"startTime":1586.762,"endTime":1588.972,"body":"Yeah, I think it all starts"},{"startTime":1586.762,"endTime":1588.972,"body":"with that vision, right?"},{"startTime":1589.002,"endTime":1591.132,"body":"You have a product vision and it's clear."},{"startTime":1591.282,"endTime":1594.662,"body":"So as an incoming product"},{"startTime":1591.282,"endTime":1594.662,"body":"manager, I would want to really"},{"startTime":1594.662,"endTime":1596.252,"body":"understand that product vision."},{"startTime":1596.402,"endTime":1599.662,"body":"I would want to understand why"},{"startTime":1596.402,"endTime":1599.662,"body":"the company is, why does it exist?"},{"startTime":1599.722,"endTime":1600.332,"body":"Not just."},{"startTime":1600.482,"endTime":1604.192,"body":"what, what the offerings are and who our"},{"startTime":1600.482,"endTime":1604.192,"body":"customers are, but why does it exist?"},{"startTime":1604.342,"endTime":1605.962,"body":"What difference does that make, right?"},{"startTime":1605.962,"endTime":1608.342,"body":"To, to, to, to the"},{"startTime":1605.962,"endTime":1608.342,"body":"industry, to our customers."},{"startTime":1608.372,"endTime":1611.602,"body":"If you understand that, then the next"},{"startTime":1608.372,"endTime":1611.602,"body":"level down is going to be, okay, in"},{"startTime":1611.602,"endTime":1615.852,"body":"my little microcosm, I'm a product"},{"startTime":1611.602,"endTime":1615.852,"body":"manager for a product series of"},{"startTime":1615.852,"endTime":1617.292,"body":"product, whatever it is, product line."},{"startTime":1617.442,"endTime":1621.702,"body":"I need to understand how that"},{"startTime":1617.442,"endTime":1621.702,"body":"contributes to the overall."},{"startTime":1621.862,"endTime":1626.182,"body":"Organizational strategy of what we're"},{"startTime":1621.862,"endTime":1626.182,"body":"trying to do in this particular period."},{"startTime":1626.212,"endTime":1627.932,"body":"It could be a quarter could be a year."},{"startTime":1628.082,"endTime":1632.202,"body":"If you understand that you're"},{"startTime":1628.082,"endTime":1632.202,"body":"well on your way to now, not only"},{"startTime":1632.312,"endTime":1636.532,"body":"you know, understanding, but also"},{"startTime":1632.312,"endTime":1636.532,"body":"crafting your own road map, right?"},{"startTime":1636.572,"endTime":1636.872,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":1636.892,"endTime":1638.562,"body":"How things fit into it."},{"startTime":1638.572,"endTime":1642.837,"body":"So then you'll be able to Confidently"},{"startTime":1638.572,"endTime":1642.837,"body":"stand up and say, here's the roadmap."},{"startTime":1642.867,"endTime":1646.797,"body":"Here's how it contributes to our"},{"startTime":1642.867,"endTime":1646.797,"body":"strategy for our current timeframe."},{"startTime":1646.947,"endTime":1652.477,"body":"And here's why the items are there"},{"startTime":1646.947,"endTime":1652.477,"body":"are where they are on the roadmap."},{"startTime":1652.477,"endTime":1652.736,"body":"I"},{"startTime":1652.886,"endTime":1654.396,"body":"mean, there's a lot there, right?"},{"startTime":1654.396,"endTime":1655.066,"body":"There's a lot there."},{"startTime":1655.066,"endTime":1657.606,"body":"I've covered a lot of ground"},{"startTime":1655.066,"endTime":1657.606,"body":"in that statement there  yeah,"},{"startTime":1657.606,"endTime":1658.506,"body":"there, there is a lot."},{"startTime":1658.516,"endTime":1662.146,"body":"I'm, I'm, I'm thinking of, there's"},{"startTime":1658.516,"endTime":1662.146,"body":"assumptions built in as well."},{"startTime":1662.156,"endTime":1663.066,"body":"Like you really."},{"startTime":1663.086,"endTime":1665.306,"body":"Take the time to"},{"startTime":1663.086,"endTime":1665.306,"body":"understand your customers."},{"startTime":1665.306,"endTime":1668.566,"body":"You understand your market, you"},{"startTime":1665.306,"endTime":1668.566,"body":"understand your competition, right?"},{"startTime":1668.566,"endTime":1669.526,"body":"The whole landscape."},{"startTime":1669.856,"endTime":1672.226,"body":"And figure out where"},{"startTime":1669.856,"endTime":1672.226,"body":"you're positioned in that."},{"startTime":1672.346,"endTime":1673.396,"body":"Are you a market leader?"},{"startTime":1673.396,"endTime":1674.236,"body":"Are you a laggard?"},{"startTime":1674.386,"endTime":1675.676,"body":"You know, what are you leading on?"},{"startTime":1675.676,"endTime":1676.666,"body":"What are you lagging on?"},{"startTime":1676.726,"endTime":1677.566,"body":"All of those things."},{"startTime":1677.596,"endTime":1681.356,"body":"I'm also thinking about product"},{"startTime":1677.596,"endTime":1681.356,"body":"managers coming into the foray."},{"startTime":1681.636,"endTime":1683.076,"body":"Like there may be."},{"startTime":1683.226,"endTime":1687.036,"body":"There may be historical trends"},{"startTime":1683.226,"endTime":1687.036,"body":"that you may not be aware of."},{"startTime":1687.036,"endTime":1690.626,"body":"They basically, you may, you may"},{"startTime":1687.036,"endTime":1690.626,"body":"need to dive deep into the data."},{"startTime":1690.776,"endTime":1693.836,"body":"Assuming that your product has that"},{"startTime":1690.776,"endTime":1693.836,"body":"right to, to, to figure out what's"},{"startTime":1693.836,"endTime":1695.386,"body":"going on with the market, right?"},{"startTime":1695.386,"endTime":1701.076,"body":"With the market you may be taking over"},{"startTime":1695.386,"endTime":1701.076,"body":"specific initiatives that your product"},{"startTime":1701.076,"endTime":1703.916,"body":"or your business or whatever has kind"},{"startTime":1701.076,"endTime":1703.916,"body":"of kicked off that you're in the middle"},{"startTime":1703.916,"endTime":1707.676,"body":"of things that, you know, they weren't"},{"startTime":1703.916,"endTime":1707.676,"body":"your decision, but they're in mid flight."},{"startTime":1707.676,"endTime":1709.876,"body":"So like we can do fight against them."},{"startTime":1709.876,"endTime":1711.126,"body":"I mean, probably not, right?"},{"startTime":1711.466,"endTime":1711.486,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1711.636,"endTime":1717.216,"body":"And then any upcoming milestones that"},{"startTime":1711.636,"endTime":1717.216,"body":"have been kind of promised, you know,"},{"startTime":1717.216,"endTime":1720.166,"body":"the, cause you might be in that,"},{"startTime":1717.216,"endTime":1720.166,"body":"but we did a whole podcast on like,"},{"startTime":1720.436,"endTime":1724.116,"body":"Oh, deadlines and agile and like"},{"startTime":1720.436,"endTime":1724.116,"body":"people fight about them or whatever."},{"startTime":1724.116,"endTime":1726.826,"body":"But I'm like, yeah, you, but"},{"startTime":1724.116,"endTime":1726.826,"body":"you can totally do deadlines."},{"startTime":1726.856,"endTime":1727.876,"body":"It's super easy."},{"startTime":1727.916,"endTime":1728.196,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1728.326,"endTime":1729.746,"body":"You know, let's just talk about, you know."},{"startTime":1729.896,"endTime":1730.146,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1730.146,"endTime":1730.556,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":1730.586,"endTime":1733.846,"body":"You could have, you could have"},{"startTime":1730.586,"endTime":1733.846,"body":"inherited somebody else's product."},{"startTime":1733.846,"endTime":1734.356,"body":"You really could have."},{"startTime":1734.356,"endTime":1734.606,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1734.616,"endTime":1734.886,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1734.916,"endTime":1736.716,"body":"Somebody moved on or whatever happened."},{"startTime":1736.766,"endTime":1738.596,"body":"And that assumes that that assumes that."},{"startTime":1738.806,"endTime":1742.686,"body":"Also again, if you listen to this"},{"startTime":1738.806,"endTime":1742.686,"body":"podcast, you, you, you probably have some"},{"startTime":1742.686,"endTime":1746.586,"body":"level of expertise in business agility."},{"startTime":1746.736,"endTime":1750.406,"body":"Again, like this assumes a level of"},{"startTime":1746.736,"endTime":1750.406,"body":"business agility with your organization,"},{"startTime":1750.656,"endTime":1753.746,"body":"but you might be stepping in talking"},{"startTime":1750.656,"endTime":1753.746,"body":"about your product portfolio or"},{"startTime":1753.746,"endTime":1756.996,"body":"your roadmap or whatever, with the"},{"startTime":1753.746,"endTime":1756.996,"body":"assumption that like maybe your"},{"startTime":1757.006,"endTime":1758.726,"body":"roadmap has drawn up in a way where."},{"startTime":1758.876,"endTime":1764.546,"body":"It is taking account for non cross"},{"startTime":1758.876,"endTime":1764.546,"body":"functional teams, you know, Oh, QA on this"},{"startTime":1764.546,"endTime":1766.166,"body":"date and this on this date and whatever."},{"startTime":1766.166,"endTime":1769.226,"body":"And like, so there's a whole"},{"startTime":1766.166,"endTime":1769.226,"body":"process thing here that needs to be"},{"startTime":1769.416,"endTime":1772.016,"body":"figured out to say, Hey, we really"},{"startTime":1769.416,"endTime":1772.016,"body":"shouldn't be working like this."},{"startTime":1772.266,"endTime":1775.926,"body":"This is not the way the roadmap should"},{"startTime":1772.266,"endTime":1775.926,"body":"be created or, or, or, you know, when"},{"startTime":1775.927,"endTime":1778.266,"body":"you, you know, even like, I know we said"},{"startTime":1775.927,"endTime":1778.266,"body":"we were going to stay away from this"},{"startTime":1778.267,"endTime":1781.266,"body":"and this podcast just because we didn't"},{"startTime":1778.267,"endTime":1781.266,"body":"get bogged down, but it's, it's too"},{"startTime":1781.266,"endTime":1786.696,"body":"juicy not to get into Your roadmap is"},{"startTime":1781.266,"endTime":1786.696,"body":"featured delivery on a, with milestones"},{"startTime":1786.696,"endTime":1789.166,"body":"and deadlines, not business outcomes."},{"startTime":1789.316,"endTime":1789.706,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1789.746,"endTime":1791.406,"body":"How many roadmaps are like that out there?"},{"startTime":1791.406,"endTime":1792.046,"body":"I wonder, right?"},{"startTime":1792.047,"endTime":1796.406,"body":"It's not a trivial amount for sure."},{"startTime":1796.706,"endTime":1800.521,"body":"I, we talked about, I got into this"},{"startTime":1796.706,"endTime":1800.521,"body":"talking about understanding the"},{"startTime":1800.521,"endTime":1804.126,"body":"product, the vision, the market the"},{"startTime":1800.521,"endTime":1804.126,"body":"competitors, it also works the other"},{"startTime":1804.126,"endTime":1807.626,"body":"way to your point, understand how"},{"startTime":1804.126,"endTime":1807.626,"body":"your teams are structured today."},{"startTime":1807.776,"endTime":1810.206,"body":"Whether it's the way you like"},{"startTime":1807.776,"endTime":1810.206,"body":"it or not, doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1810.226,"endTime":1811.536,"body":"Understand where they're coming from."},{"startTime":1811.546,"endTime":1812.216,"body":"Where are you today?"},{"startTime":1812.366,"endTime":1814.246,"body":"I guess I'm going back to"},{"startTime":1812.366,"endTime":1814.246,"body":"meet them where they're at."},{"startTime":1814.276,"endTime":1817.636,"body":"That's, that's part of the process"},{"startTime":1814.276,"endTime":1817.636,"body":"that we just called out is, is you"},{"startTime":1817.636,"endTime":1821.316,"body":"need to understand , we know that we"},{"startTime":1817.636,"endTime":1821.316,"body":"all read the three Marty Kagan books."},{"startTime":1821.316,"endTime":1823.536,"body":"We know that we should be doing"},{"startTime":1821.316,"endTime":1823.536,"body":"business outcomes in our roadmap."},{"startTime":1823.686,"endTime":1824.266,"body":"How come?"},{"startTime":1824.541,"endTime":1829.461,"body":"All of my, like at the roadmap I"},{"startTime":1824.541,"endTime":1829.461,"body":"look at and I grab all says deliver X"},{"startTime":1829.461,"endTime":1833.241,"body":"feature by y date to z Zed customer."},{"startTime":1833.271,"endTime":1833.601,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1833.601,"endTime":1835.941,"body":"Z It's ZI learned, I've"},{"startTime":1833.601,"endTime":1835.941,"body":"learned on the podcast."},{"startTime":1835.941,"endTime":1836.361,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1836.571,"endTime":1837.201,"body":"The Z customer."},{"startTime":1837.251,"endTime":1837.491,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1837.731,"endTime":1838.871,"body":"Why is my roadmap like that?"},{"startTime":1838.901,"endTime":1839.216,"body":"Oh, oh."},{"startTime":1839.441,"endTime":1843.611,"body":"I mean, it's like it that that's your"},{"startTime":1839.441,"endTime":1843.611,"body":"first red flag to let you know like, oh,"},{"startTime":1843.611,"endTime":1845.351,"body":"well, because you're product leaders now."},{"startTime":1845.651,"endTime":1849.041,"body":"Like they, they either don't"},{"startTime":1845.651,"endTime":1849.041,"body":"wanna fight about this or"},{"startTime":1849.361,"endTime":1850.831,"body":"they really don't understand."},{"startTime":1850.981,"endTime":1855.281,"body":"About , what a business outcome facing,"},{"startTime":1850.981,"endTime":1855.281,"body":"you know, now, next, later modern style"},{"startTime":1855.281,"endTime":1859.181,"body":"roadmap is maybe you found yourself"},{"startTime":1855.281,"endTime":1859.181,"body":"with, it didn't come out in the"},{"startTime":1859.181,"endTime":1862.881,"body":"interview process and now your first,"},{"startTime":1859.181,"endTime":1862.881,"body":"you know, week of work or whatever"},{"startTime":1862.881,"endTime":1867.011,"body":"you realize, Oh no, these people don't"},{"startTime":1862.881,"endTime":1867.011,"body":"understand now, next, later they,"},{"startTime":1867.021,"endTime":1868.461,"body":"they want everything on a deadline."},{"startTime":1868.611,"endTime":1871.551,"body":"Yeah, without testing you know,"},{"startTime":1868.611,"endTime":1871.551,"body":"the, to without testing the"},{"startTime":1871.551,"endTime":1873.471,"body":"appetite for that or whatever test."},{"startTime":1873.471,"endTime":1874.336,"body":"Yeah, that's a previous one."},{"startTime":1874.366,"endTime":1875.631,"body":"It's a d different podcast."},{"startTime":1875.631,"endTime":1875.901,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1876.081,"endTime":1878.811,"body":"But no, because you've read"},{"startTime":1876.081,"endTime":1878.811,"body":"all the Marty Cagan books."},{"startTime":1878.841,"endTime":1881.811,"body":"First thing you tell your product"},{"startTime":1878.841,"endTime":1881.811,"body":"leader is Let's fire all our coaches."},{"startTime":1881.871,"endTime":1882.081,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1882.081,"endTime":1882.531,"body":"Oh no."},{"startTime":1882.536,"endTime":1882.951,"body":"Don't do that."},{"startTime":1883.281,"endTime":1883.461,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1883.461,"endTime":1884.271,"body":"Seriously though."},{"startTime":1884.421,"endTime":1885.561,"body":"Question everything."},{"startTime":1885.621,"endTime":1886.791,"body":"That's what it comes down to."},{"startTime":1887.121,"endTime":1890.661,"body":"You are handed things or"},{"startTime":1887.121,"endTime":1890.661,"body":"you're, you are driven toward"},{"startTime":1890.661,"endTime":1892.561,"body":"existing roadmaps, et cetera."},{"startTime":1892.591,"endTime":1896.471,"body":"Maybe you inherited it, but question"},{"startTime":1892.591,"endTime":1896.471,"body":"it, question it, and look for quick"},{"startTime":1896.471,"endTime":1898.221,"body":"wins because you just got on boarded."},{"startTime":1898.351,"endTime":1901.651,"body":"You're going to have to provide"},{"startTime":1898.351,"endTime":1901.651,"body":"some evidence that, you know, you"},{"startTime":1901.651,"endTime":1905.341,"body":"don't, you know, that whether it's"},{"startTime":1901.651,"endTime":1905.341,"body":"30, 60, 90 or not, you have to"},{"startTime":1905.611,"endTime":1907.941,"body":"prove that you are adding value."},{"startTime":1908.091,"endTime":1912.801,"body":"So question it, ask questions and make"},{"startTime":1908.091,"endTime":1912.801,"body":"small pivots and try and get some wins."},{"startTime":1913.141,"endTime":1916.461,"body":"You know, the interesting part"},{"startTime":1913.141,"endTime":1916.461,"body":"about managing a product portfolio"},{"startTime":1916.501,"endTime":1918.051,"body":"and or managing a roadmap."},{"startTime":1918.201,"endTime":1921.851,"body":"is managing the products finances."},{"startTime":1922.051,"endTime":1924.681,"body":"I think this should be something"},{"startTime":1922.051,"endTime":1924.681,"body":"that's in your interview questions"},{"startTime":1924.701,"endTime":1926.666,"body":"is, do I manage the P and L?"},{"startTime":1926.816,"endTime":1929.906,"body":"You know, the profit and loss"},{"startTime":1926.816,"endTime":1929.906,"body":"for this product, the top to"},{"startTime":1929.906,"endTime":1931.606,"body":"bottom up to me to manage."},{"startTime":1931.756,"endTime":1935.926,"body":"And if the answer is no you have a red"},{"startTime":1931.756,"endTime":1935.926,"body":"flag that you have to talk about in"},{"startTime":1935.926,"endTime":1939.346,"body":"the interview and you really have to,"},{"startTime":1935.926,"endTime":1939.346,"body":"you really have to think about this"},{"startTime":1939.616,"endTime":1941.526,"body":"for a second before you accept the job."},{"startTime":1941.726,"endTime":1946.036,"body":"And a lot of people, I would say a lot"},{"startTime":1941.726,"endTime":1946.036,"body":"of people, product managers have not,"},{"startTime":1946.186,"endTime":1948.726,"body":"have not had P and L responsibilities."},{"startTime":1948.876,"endTime":1952.596,"body":"So they probably would be okay"},{"startTime":1948.876,"endTime":1952.596,"body":"taking the job because they"},{"startTime":1952.596,"endTime":1954.266,"body":"would say, well, at least."},{"startTime":1954.591,"endTime":1955.861,"body":"It's not as bad."},{"startTime":1955.871,"endTime":1959.821,"body":"It's, it's on an equal footing with"},{"startTime":1955.871,"endTime":1959.821,"body":"all the previous responsibilities"},{"startTime":1959.831,"endTime":1962.501,"body":"that I've ever had that, and, and"},{"startTime":1959.831,"endTime":1962.501,"body":"they would look at it that way."},{"startTime":1962.501,"endTime":1964.511,"body":"Like, it's like, Oh,"},{"startTime":1962.501,"endTime":1964.511,"body":"well, it's not that bad."},{"startTime":1964.691,"endTime":1969.111,"body":"Where I'm questioning it is if you're"},{"startTime":1964.691,"endTime":1969.111,"body":"not in control of the finances,"},{"startTime":1969.291,"endTime":1971.061,"body":"again, this is just my experience."},{"startTime":1971.211,"endTime":1975.661,"body":"I have found if you're not in control"},{"startTime":1971.211,"endTime":1975.661,"body":"of the finances, that the slippery"},{"startTime":1975.671,"endTime":1982.231,"body":"slope downhill slide to you're not in"},{"startTime":1975.671,"endTime":1982.231,"body":"control of prioritization is super quick."},{"startTime":1982.381,"endTime":1987.491,"body":"It is extremely fast and, and that stuff"},{"startTime":1982.381,"endTime":1987.491,"body":"can spiral out of control very quickly."},{"startTime":1987.641,"endTime":1989.661,"body":"Yeah, look, I agree with that completely."},{"startTime":1989.661,"endTime":1989.811,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1989.811,"endTime":1994.841,"body":"If you're not, if you're not aware"},{"startTime":1989.811,"endTime":1994.841,"body":"or, or in control or in charge of the"},{"startTime":1994.991,"endTime":1999.461,"body":"finances for your product, you're not"},{"startTime":1994.991,"endTime":1999.461,"body":"really a product manager, are you?"},{"startTime":1999.611,"endTime":2000.881,"body":"That was contentious, wasn't it?"},{"startTime":2001.201,"endTime":2002.851,"body":"No, really you're not right."},{"startTime":2002.851,"endTime":2005.591,"body":"Because what are you"},{"startTime":2002.851,"endTime":2005.591,"body":"managing the product aside?"},{"startTime":2005.591,"endTime":2008.931,"body":"Are you simply you know, in charge"},{"startTime":2005.591,"endTime":2008.931,"body":"of formulating requirements?"},{"startTime":2008.931,"endTime":2009.891,"body":"You're glorified BA."},{"startTime":2009.891,"endTime":2010.481,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":2010.661,"endTime":2010.801,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2010.831,"endTime":2011.051,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2011.061,"endTime":2015.111,"body":"You have to be responsible"},{"startTime":2011.061,"endTime":2015.111,"body":"for the viability that the"},{"startTime":2015.141,"endTime":2016.811,"body":"PNL, the PNL piece of it."},{"startTime":2016.811,"endTime":2020.011,"body":"If you're not the, and if you're"},{"startTime":2016.811,"endTime":2020.011,"body":"just simply saying, you know,"},{"startTime":2020.061,"endTime":2022.911,"body":"that's handed down to you, then"},{"startTime":2020.061,"endTime":2022.911,"body":"that's the product manager, not"},{"startTime":2022.911,"endTime":2024.451,"body":"you, whatever title they hold."},{"startTime":2024.801,"endTime":2025.611,"body":"So, yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":2025.611,"endTime":2027.501,"body":"It should be part of"},{"startTime":2025.611,"endTime":2027.501,"body":"the Interview process."},{"startTime":2027.541,"endTime":2030.451,"body":"If you're interviewing to be"},{"startTime":2027.541,"endTime":2030.451,"body":"a product manager, you really"},{"startTime":2030.451,"endTime":2031.861,"body":"need to own the PNL process."},{"startTime":2031.991,"endTime":2032.281,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2032.311,"endTime":2035.321,"body":"You need to own whether the"},{"startTime":2032.311,"endTime":2035.321,"body":"product is profitable or not."},{"startTime":2035.331,"endTime":2037.871,"body":"How can you do that without"},{"startTime":2035.331,"endTime":2037.871,"body":"owning the accountability for it?"},{"startTime":2038.141,"endTime":2038.731,"body":"I don't understand."},{"startTime":2038.791,"endTime":2039.741,"body":"I'll just tell you."},{"startTime":2039.891,"endTime":2040.321,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2040.421,"endTime":2041.421,"body":"Dear product leader."},{"startTime":2041.751,"endTime":2045.201,"body":"I'm just a product owner then don't"},{"startTime":2041.751,"endTime":2045.201,"body":"pay me as much as a product manager."},{"startTime":2045.331,"endTime":2045.851,"body":"Come on now."},{"startTime":2045.931,"endTime":2046.591,"body":"Yikes."},{"startTime":2046.661,"endTime":2051.411,"body":"Well, well, in, in the same vein as owning"},{"startTime":2046.661,"endTime":2051.411,"body":"the PNL, let's pivot to something else."},{"startTime":2051.411,"endTime":2055.021,"body":"It's equally important is"},{"startTime":2051.411,"endTime":2055.021,"body":"owning the customer experience."},{"startTime":2055.371,"endTime":2059.671,"body":"So customer experience, user experience,"},{"startTime":2055.371,"endTime":2059.671,"body":"user insights, whatever you want to call"},{"startTime":2059.671,"endTime":2065.271,"body":"it, like the, the, when you come on board"},{"startTime":2059.671,"endTime":2065.271,"body":"in the early part, in the early part"},{"startTime":2065.281,"endTime":2066.801,"body":"of coming on board as a product leader."},{"startTime":2067.131,"endTime":2071.301,"body":"product manager learning your customers"},{"startTime":2067.131,"endTime":2071.301,"body":"talking to them, figuring out who they"},{"startTime":2071.301,"endTime":2074.431,"body":"are, how they use the product, like"},{"startTime":2071.301,"endTime":2074.431,"body":"what their problems are, you know,"},{"startTime":2074.441,"endTime":2078.601,"body":"especially if you don't come from the"},{"startTime":2074.441,"endTime":2078.601,"body":"domain business domain  I think of"},{"startTime":2078.751,"endTime":2083.011,"body":"putting yourself in the middle of whatever"},{"startTime":2078.751,"endTime":2083.011,"body":"customer feedback processes that you have"},{"startTime":2083.011,"endTime":2087.061,"body":"in place now, I don't know if they're"},{"startTime":2083.011,"endTime":2087.061,"body":"surveys forms, you know, input like"},{"startTime":2087.071,"endTime":2092.581,"body":"in, in app feedback, if that's a thing"},{"startTime":2087.071,"endTime":2092.581,"body":"You know, I think in the inspired book,"},{"startTime":2092.611,"endTime":2097.131,"body":"Marty Kagan talks about visiting like 30"},{"startTime":2092.611,"endTime":2097.131,"body":"customers in the field where they are."},{"startTime":2097.131,"endTime":2100.811,"body":"I mean, that, that, that was sort of like"},{"startTime":2097.131,"endTime":2100.811,"body":"a, I don't know if it's exactly the same."},{"startTime":2101.041,"endTime":2104.631,"body":"He was, he was obviously talking"},{"startTime":2101.041,"endTime":2104.631,"body":"about a B2B type of solution, right?"},{"startTime":2104.781,"endTime":2110.561,"body":"But sessions to, to, to basically"},{"startTime":2104.781,"endTime":2110.561,"body":"watch and sit with customers as a user"},{"startTime":2110.561,"endTime":2112.381,"body":"product in whatever capacity that is."},{"startTime":2112.531,"endTime":2113.941,"body":"There's no substitute for that."},{"startTime":2114.111,"endTime":2118.841,"body":"Honestly, there's the only way to learn is"},{"startTime":2114.111,"endTime":2118.841,"body":"to, you know, walk a day in their shoes."},{"startTime":2119.151,"endTime":2123.111,"body":"You can start if you're just onboarded"},{"startTime":2119.151,"endTime":2123.111,"body":"to a new organization, you can start by"},{"startTime":2123.111,"endTime":2125.311,"body":"working with your ops and support people."},{"startTime":2125.651,"endTime":2127.961,"body":"How difficult is our"},{"startTime":2125.651,"endTime":2127.961,"body":"product to operationalize?"},{"startTime":2128.001,"endTime":2130.961,"body":"And then once it's out in"},{"startTime":2128.001,"endTime":2130.961,"body":"the wild, what are the issues"},{"startTime":2130.961,"endTime":2132.161,"body":"that customers are reporting?"},{"startTime":2132.311,"endTime":2135.401,"body":"You're just learning at a distance"},{"startTime":2132.311,"endTime":2135.401,"body":"still, but you're learning, right?"},{"startTime":2135.441,"endTime":2139.131,"body":"And then that would be hopefully a"},{"startTime":2135.441,"endTime":2139.131,"body":"stepping stone to going out there and"},{"startTime":2139.131,"endTime":2140.991,"body":"spending time with customers, right?"},{"startTime":2141.321,"endTime":2141.541,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2141.581,"endTime":2143.111,"body":"There is no substitute for that."},{"startTime":2143.291,"endTime":2143.611,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2143.681,"endTime":2147.401,"body":"And until you start doing that, you can't"},{"startTime":2143.681,"endTime":2147.401,"body":"really start segmenting your audience"},{"startTime":2147.401,"endTime":2151.128,"body":"to say, well, these users use a product"},{"startTime":2147.401,"endTime":2151.128,"body":"like this and these users, you know,"},{"startTime":2151.128,"endTime":2155.981,"body":"like, that's like the, the, the, the"},{"startTime":2151.128,"endTime":2155.981,"body":"stereotypical, like developer experiences"},{"startTime":2155.991,"endTime":2160.491,"body":"that we didn't, we never expected this"},{"startTime":2155.991,"endTime":2160.491,"body":"group of users to use a product like this."},{"startTime":2160.641,"endTime":2161.571,"body":"Whatever this is."},{"startTime":2161.601,"endTime":2164.291,"body":"But you know, the other thing"},{"startTime":2161.601,"endTime":2164.291,"body":"that you didn't mention sales."},{"startTime":2164.291,"endTime":2164.381,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":2164.701,"endTime":2168.501,"body":"can help with this if, you know so like"},{"startTime":2164.701,"endTime":2168.501,"body":"sales is like the on one end of the"},{"startTime":2168.501,"endTime":2172.551,"body":"spectrum and customer solutions slash"},{"startTime":2168.501,"endTime":2172.551,"body":"customer support is on the other end."},{"startTime":2172.556,"endTime":2172.851,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2172.911,"endTime":2173.661,"body":"Of the spectrum."},{"startTime":2173.911,"endTime":2176.136,"body":"You know, one is at the, you"},{"startTime":2173.911,"endTime":2176.136,"body":"know, forefront when you're just."},{"startTime":2176.286,"endTime":2180.656,"body":"Touching when you're just talking to"},{"startTime":2176.286,"endTime":2180.656,"body":"users to start and the other one is"},{"startTime":2180.656,"endTime":2184.386,"body":"the users, you know, you are have been"},{"startTime":2180.656,"endTime":2184.386,"body":"using your product in your experience"},{"startTime":2184.396,"endTime":2186.596,"body":"for a period of time, potentially."},{"startTime":2186.936,"endTime":2187.996,"body":"So that's interesting."},{"startTime":2188.146,"endTime":2189.946,"body":"And these are all internal employees."},{"startTime":2189.956,"endTime":2193.986,"body":"So theoretically, you should have free"},{"startTime":2189.956,"endTime":2193.986,"body":"reign to, you know, Go everywhere."},{"startTime":2193.996,"endTime":2195.036,"body":"They're accessible to you."},{"startTime":2195.186,"endTime":2195.396,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2195.686,"endTime":2196.186,"body":"Completely."},{"startTime":2196.186,"endTime":2196.436,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2196.586,"endTime":2196.836,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2196.986,"endTime":2200.566,"body":"Sales is interesting because after"},{"startTime":2196.986,"endTime":2200.566,"body":"you've been in the organization for"},{"startTime":2200.566,"endTime":2205.326,"body":"a bit, you could actually accompany"},{"startTime":2200.566,"endTime":2205.326,"body":"them on pre sales or at conferences."},{"startTime":2205.356,"endTime":2205.896,"body":"You should."},{"startTime":2205.926,"endTime":2210.896,"body":"And ask the questions of customers at"},{"startTime":2205.926,"endTime":2210.896,"body":"that point, right before the customers"},{"startTime":2211.016,"endTime":2215.726,"body":"even signed, you know, an LOI or MOU"},{"startTime":2211.016,"endTime":2215.726,"body":"or whatever it is right up front."},{"startTime":2215.876,"endTime":2219.276,"body":"And that's a way you can learn"},{"startTime":2215.876,"endTime":2219.276,"body":"about those signals, right?"},{"startTime":2219.296,"endTime":2220.656,"body":"What's important to the customers."},{"startTime":2220.806,"endTime":2225.316,"body":"Well, in addition to what's important to"},{"startTime":2220.806,"endTime":2225.316,"body":"the customers you have what's important"},{"startTime":2225.316,"endTime":2229.266,"body":"to you, you, the person being onboarded,"},{"startTime":2225.316,"endTime":2229.266,"body":"the, the, the new product manager"},{"startTime":2229.266,"endTime":2233.646,"body":"in the organization What's important"},{"startTime":2229.266,"endTime":2233.646,"body":"to you is the, that, that this is a"},{"startTime":2233.646,"endTime":2238.386,"body":"position that you continue to develop"},{"startTime":2233.646,"endTime":2238.386,"body":"your career and your, in, in, in your"},{"startTime":2238.426,"endTime":2242.326,"body":"individual contributor skills, or even"},{"startTime":2238.426,"endTime":2242.326,"body":"if you're a I guess you could be a"},{"startTime":2242.586,"endTime":2245.206,"body":"product leader of product leaders, right?"},{"startTime":2245.246,"endTime":2248.656,"body":"I guess, but not really where this"},{"startTime":2245.246,"endTime":2248.656,"body":"is targeted, but the point is the"},{"startTime":2248.656,"endTime":2250.296,"body":"same, whatever role you're in."},{"startTime":2250.446,"endTime":2254.876,"body":"You have to make sure that, that, that"},{"startTime":2250.446,"endTime":2254.876,"body":"you have mentorship and or coaching."},{"startTime":2255.026,"endTime":2256.846,"body":"I read, I can't remember what book it was."},{"startTime":2256.846,"endTime":2257.666,"body":"I read recently."},{"startTime":2257.786,"endTime":2260.576,"body":"Oh, I actually, it might've been"},{"startTime":2257.786,"endTime":2260.576,"body":"the, it might've been the transform"},{"startTime":2260.586,"endTime":2263.526,"body":"Marty Kagan book where he was"},{"startTime":2260.586,"endTime":2263.526,"body":"talking about product leaders."},{"startTime":2263.756,"endTime":2270.356,"body":"Like coaching is a big part of the product"},{"startTime":2263.756,"endTime":2270.356,"body":"leaders job and really any manager's job."},{"startTime":2270.506,"endTime":2272.016,"body":"Like coaching is a big part of it."},{"startTime":2272.166,"endTime":2277.506,"body":"And if you're not doing coaching as a"},{"startTime":2272.166,"endTime":2277.506,"body":"product leader what really are you doing?"},{"startTime":2277.556,"endTime":2281.986,"body":"I think of the same thing as, as, as"},{"startTime":2277.556,"endTime":2281.986,"body":"technical leads, any of the people in the"},{"startTime":2281.986,"endTime":2285.866,"body":"leads position like coaching is a huge"},{"startTime":2281.986,"endTime":2285.866,"body":"part of your job and if you're not doing"},{"startTime":2285.866,"endTime":2290.156,"body":"that or you're not good at it or you, you"},{"startTime":2285.866,"endTime":2290.156,"body":"know, you, you're too busy to do it or"},{"startTime":2290.156,"endTime":2292.106,"body":"whatever, you know, coaching sessions."},{"startTime":2292.256,"endTime":2292.706,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2292.756,"endTime":2294.416,"body":"Like, I don't know what you're"},{"startTime":2292.756,"endTime":2294.416,"body":"really doing with your life"},{"startTime":2294.436,"endTime":2295.406,"body":"and your job at this point."},{"startTime":2295.556,"endTime":2296.166,"body":"This is true."},{"startTime":2296.166,"endTime":2298.966,"body":"I absolutely, but you know, in"},{"startTime":2296.166,"endTime":2298.966,"body":"some organizations those leaders"},{"startTime":2298.966,"endTime":2300.926,"body":"are quote unquote too busy."},{"startTime":2300.996,"endTime":2303.586,"body":"Those coaching avenues just don't exist."},{"startTime":2303.906,"endTime":2308.646,"body":"In that case, if you're a new product"},{"startTime":2303.906,"endTime":2308.646,"body":"manager coming into an org like"},{"startTime":2308.646,"endTime":2312.396,"body":"that, look for things like product"},{"startTime":2308.646,"endTime":2312.396,"body":"managers, community of practice."},{"startTime":2312.436,"endTime":2314.186,"body":"If there isn't one, guess what?"},{"startTime":2314.336,"endTime":2315.506,"body":"Put your hand up and say, I'll start it."},{"startTime":2315.826,"endTime":2316.756,"body":"You're not the expert."},{"startTime":2316.766,"endTime":2320.226,"body":"You don't have to be, but you"},{"startTime":2316.766,"endTime":2320.226,"body":"are initiating something as a"},{"startTime":2320.226,"endTime":2323.426,"body":"forum for other people to come"},{"startTime":2320.226,"endTime":2323.426,"body":"in and help one another out."},{"startTime":2323.576,"endTime":2323.816,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2323.826,"endTime":2327.196,"body":"So I think that's a, that's what I would"},{"startTime":2323.826,"endTime":2327.196,"body":"do if I was in a company where there was"},{"startTime":2327.196,"endTime":2331.986,"body":"no such Avenue and I didn't have access"},{"startTime":2327.196,"endTime":2331.986,"body":"to, you know, mentorship, coaching, right."},{"startTime":2332.326,"endTime":2335.016,"body":"From the product leadership you"},{"startTime":2332.326,"endTime":2335.016,"body":"know, that, that, that strata"},{"startTime":2335.226,"endTime":2338.266,"body":"I would say, just open up and"},{"startTime":2335.226,"endTime":2338.266,"body":"say, let's, let's get together."},{"startTime":2338.466,"endTime":2338.666,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2338.716,"endTime":2340.866,"body":"You know, let's just meet over lunch."},{"startTime":2341.056,"endTime":2341.286,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2341.356,"endTime":2342.206,"body":"Let's talk about things."},{"startTime":2342.356,"endTime":2342.566,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2342.806,"endTime":2347.641,"body":"I mean, if you're not, if you're not"},{"startTime":2342.806,"endTime":2347.641,"body":"asking like you is the new you know,"},{"startTime":2347.651,"endTime":2351.611,"body":"being on boarded product manager here,"},{"startTime":2347.651,"endTime":2351.611,"body":"if you're not asking, you know, Hey, help"},{"startTime":2351.611,"endTime":2356.171,"body":"me identify my skill gaps or areas that I"},{"startTime":2351.611,"endTime":2356.171,"body":"can improve of what I'm doing day to day."},{"startTime":2356.511,"endTime":2360.021,"body":"And, off the top of my head, I think"},{"startTime":2356.511,"endTime":2360.021,"body":"of organizations that you're just not,"},{"startTime":2360.051,"endTime":2362.781,"body":"you don't want that, you don't want to."},{"startTime":2362.931,"endTime":2367.601,"body":"Expose that vulnerability because"},{"startTime":2362.931,"endTime":2367.601,"body":"the, because the culture is the"},{"startTime":2367.601,"endTime":2370.451,"body":"type of culture where, you know,"},{"startTime":2367.601,"endTime":2370.451,"body":"Oh, that person's vulnerable."},{"startTime":2370.451,"endTime":2371.471,"body":"That's looked down on."},{"startTime":2371.661,"endTime":2372.031,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2372.031,"endTime":2374.521,"body":"It's a sign of inadequacy and failure."},{"startTime":2374.851,"endTime":2377.701,"body":"You know, that's just not, I mean,"},{"startTime":2374.851,"endTime":2377.701,"body":"what you were, what you were outlining"},{"startTime":2377.701,"endTime":2381.081,"body":"participation in workshops and conferences"},{"startTime":2377.701,"endTime":2381.081,"body":"and internal training programs and"},{"startTime":2381.321,"endTime":2384.061,"body":"kicking things off and just be the"},{"startTime":2381.321,"endTime":2384.061,"body":"first person to raise your hand and"},{"startTime":2384.061,"endTime":2387.961,"body":"say like, Hey, it doesn't seem like we"},{"startTime":2384.061,"endTime":2387.961,"body":"have a program for this or whatever."},{"startTime":2388.161,"endTime":2392.061,"body":"The way that that's perceived,"},{"startTime":2388.161,"endTime":2392.061,"body":"it's just not in a positive light."},{"startTime":2392.071,"endTime":2393.561,"body":"That might be an organizational thing."},{"startTime":2393.561,"endTime":2396.331,"body":"And like, okay, that might be a"},{"startTime":2393.561,"endTime":2396.331,"body":"problem with the organization."},{"startTime":2396.411,"endTime":2397.631,"body":"Let's put that aside for a second."},{"startTime":2397.641,"endTime":2399.921,"body":"But if it's just like, we're all too busy."},{"startTime":2399.951,"endTime":2403.191,"body":"Like this is where I've seen it more"},{"startTime":2399.951,"endTime":2403.191,"body":"often is we're just too busy, right?"},{"startTime":2403.301,"endTime":2404.671,"body":"We want to have a community practice."},{"startTime":2404.991,"endTime":2408.321,"body":"We have several teams with several"},{"startTime":2404.991,"endTime":2408.321,"body":"different product managers and all the"},{"startTime":2408.321,"endTime":2411.391,"body":"product managers kind of are a little"},{"startTime":2408.321,"endTime":2411.391,"body":"bit different in the way that they."},{"startTime":2411.541,"endTime":2412.271,"body":"Approach."},{"startTime":2412.421,"endTime":2415.471,"body":"The situation, you know, approach"},{"startTime":2412.421,"endTime":2415.471,"body":"their, their, their day to day."},{"startTime":2415.621,"endTime":2418.361,"body":"Maybe we should talk about our"},{"startTime":2415.621,"endTime":2418.361,"body":"wins together in one forum."},{"startTime":2418.361,"endTime":2422.171,"body":"Maybe we can, you know, deploy like"},{"startTime":2418.361,"endTime":2422.171,"body":"a lightweight lean coffee style,"},{"startTime":2422.421,"endTime":2425.351,"body":"you know, approach, like it doesn't"},{"startTime":2422.421,"endTime":2425.351,"body":"really require a lot of prep."},{"startTime":2425.351,"endTime":2428.501,"body":"I mean, like maybe a simple tool."},{"startTime":2428.651,"endTime":2432.871,"body":"You have to go find, you know, spend five"},{"startTime":2428.651,"endTime":2432.871,"body":"minutes Googling for a lean coffee tool."},{"startTime":2433.021,"endTime":2434.661,"body":"You could, you could use anything."},{"startTime":2434.681,"endTime":2435.131,"body":"Literally."},{"startTime":2435.131,"endTime":2439.121,"body":"You could use Jamboard until the end"},{"startTime":2435.131,"endTime":2439.121,"body":"of this month, which is the after"},{"startTime":2439.361,"endTime":2440.321,"body":"Jamboard is being discontinued."},{"startTime":2440.331,"endTime":2443.641,"body":"Anyway, the point is you could"},{"startTime":2440.331,"endTime":2443.641,"body":"use a collaborative you know, Word"},{"startTime":2443.651,"endTime":2445.111,"body":"document, Google docs, whatever."},{"startTime":2445.251,"endTime":2447.421,"body":"It doesn't matter what you use, but do it."},{"startTime":2447.451,"endTime":2450.481,"body":"Cause it's the barrier to"},{"startTime":2447.451,"endTime":2450.481,"body":"entry for that is so low."},{"startTime":2450.631,"endTime":2453.011,"body":"It just takes the willingness"},{"startTime":2450.631,"endTime":2453.011,"body":"for someone to say."},{"startTime":2453.161,"endTime":2454.901,"body":"Like you were saying,"},{"startTime":2453.161,"endTime":2454.901,"body":"you know, be vulnerable."},{"startTime":2454.911,"endTime":2458.101,"body":"Just say, let's set this up"},{"startTime":2454.911,"endTime":2458.101,"body":"so we can help one another."},{"startTime":2458.251,"endTime":2462.251,"body":"And I think that's very powerful"},{"startTime":2458.251,"endTime":2462.251,"body":"because it offers, it can, it can"},{"startTime":2462.281,"endTime":2466.651,"body":"offer opportunities like, Hey I"},{"startTime":2462.281,"endTime":2466.651,"body":"really don't know what I'm doing here."},{"startTime":2466.871,"endTime":2468.321,"body":"Has anybody come across this?"},{"startTime":2468.651,"endTime":2472.391,"body":"Or can I shadow somebody for a"},{"startTime":2468.651,"endTime":2472.391,"body":"bit who has done this before?"},{"startTime":2472.391,"endTime":2476.221,"body":"There could be people at the org that"},{"startTime":2472.391,"endTime":2476.221,"body":"have done, you know, product management"},{"startTime":2476.221,"endTime":2478.051,"body":"for a bit longer than you just joining."},{"startTime":2478.351,"endTime":2480.661,"body":"So you can, you can"},{"startTime":2478.351,"endTime":2480.661,"body":"take advantage of their."},{"startTime":2480.811,"endTime":2482.621,"body":"Tutorship their mentorship, right?"},{"startTime":2482.721,"endTime":2485.691,"body":"But you have to start that if it"},{"startTime":2482.721,"endTime":2485.691,"body":"doesn't exist and they would exist"},{"startTime":2485.691,"endTime":2487.511,"body":"and be part of it, don't miss out."},{"startTime":2487.661,"endTime":2492.401,"body":"Shadowing is one that I call out a"},{"startTime":2487.661,"endTime":2492.401,"body":"lot of times because I, I again, I,"},{"startTime":2492.461,"endTime":2495.631,"body":"like I tell people, even when they're"},{"startTime":2492.461,"endTime":2495.631,"body":"interviewing, I tell people If you were"},{"startTime":2495.631,"endTime":2499.191,"body":"to pick up the scrum guide and read"},{"startTime":2495.631,"endTime":2499.191,"body":"it, you know, all, whatever, 12, 12,"},{"startTime":2499.191,"endTime":2503.851,"body":"14 pages of whatever it is in all its"},{"startTime":2499.191,"endTime":2503.851,"body":"glory, I was like, then you would be"},{"startTime":2503.891,"endTime":2509.481,"body":"completely ready process wise to take"},{"startTime":2503.891,"endTime":2509.481,"body":"over my teams as product manager, because"},{"startTime":2509.501,"endTime":2511.311,"body":"I'm not doing anything that's different."},{"startTime":2511.331,"endTime":2515.721,"body":"I don't have any extra things"},{"startTime":2511.331,"endTime":2515.721,"body":"plugged in than the scrum guide."},{"startTime":2515.901,"endTime":2519.201,"body":"And the, the, the biggest thing"},{"startTime":2515.901,"endTime":2519.201,"body":"that I would, I would want to."},{"startTime":2519.541,"endTime":2524.336,"body":"Impart on a new product manager would"},{"startTime":2519.541,"endTime":2524.336,"body":"be backlog refinements because the,"},{"startTime":2524.366,"endTime":2526.306,"body":"the activity of backlog from it."},{"startTime":2526.346,"endTime":2526.746,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2526.746,"endTime":2527.776,"body":"I call it an activity."},{"startTime":2527.776,"endTime":2528.796,"body":"I didn't call an artifact."},{"startTime":2529.126,"endTime":2532.486,"body":"The activity of a backlog refinement"},{"startTime":2529.126,"endTime":2532.486,"body":"is completely different on my"},{"startTime":2532.486,"endTime":2534.076,"body":"teams than the sprint planning."},{"startTime":2534.226,"endTime":2537.606,"body":"And a lot of teams don't understand"},{"startTime":2534.226,"endTime":2537.606,"body":"what the, a lot of developers"},{"startTime":2537.606,"endTime":2538.796,"body":"I've talked to don't understand."},{"startTime":2538.796,"endTime":2542.286,"body":"They're like, I don't, I don't, I, They"},{"startTime":2538.796,"endTime":2542.286,"body":"both look like playing sessions to me."},{"startTime":2542.406,"endTime":2543.506,"body":"I don't see a difference."},{"startTime":2543.656,"endTime":2548.426,"body":"Well, and I say, well, give it, give it"},{"startTime":2543.656,"endTime":2548.426,"body":"a month or so you will see a difference."},{"startTime":2548.576,"endTime":2548.876,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2549.126,"endTime":2551.996,"body":"Look, first of all, backlog"},{"startTime":2549.126,"endTime":2551.996,"body":"refinements, not in the scrum guy."},{"startTime":2552.146,"endTime":2552.436,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2552.586,"endTime":2554.466,"body":"So it's an activity and."},{"startTime":2554.616,"endTime":2558.796,"body":"We always tell people it is not a"},{"startTime":2554.616,"endTime":2558.796,"body":"meeting, it is an outcome, right?"},{"startTime":2559.076,"endTime":2562.416,"body":"Backlog refinement is an outcome, meaning,"},{"startTime":2559.076,"endTime":2562.416,"body":"at the end of the meeting, people should"},{"startTime":2562.426,"endTime":2566.806,"body":"have a better shared, better and improved"},{"startTime":2562.426,"endTime":2566.806,"body":"shared understanding of what you're doing"},{"startTime":2566.806,"endTime":2567.996,"body":"and why you're doing what you're doing."},{"startTime":2568.146,"endTime":2571.056,"body":"Unless you're doing that, backlog"},{"startTime":2568.146,"endTime":2571.056,"body":"refinement tends to be one of those"},{"startTime":2571.066,"endTime":2574.286,"body":"things where people just say, you"},{"startTime":2571.066,"endTime":2574.286,"body":"know, I gotta drop after 30 minutes"},{"startTime":2574.326,"endTime":2575.196,"body":"because I have another meeting."},{"startTime":2575.536,"endTime":2578.496,"body":"It's like, they're not bought"},{"startTime":2575.536,"endTime":2578.496,"body":"into the concept of learn more"},{"startTime":2578.496,"endTime":2581.536,"body":"about, What you're trying to do"},{"startTime":2578.496,"endTime":2581.536,"body":"and why you're trying to do that."},{"startTime":2581.686,"endTime":2582.736,"body":"So I agree with that."},{"startTime":2582.736,"endTime":2587.446,"body":"I think there's a lot of, there's a lot"},{"startTime":2582.736,"endTime":2587.446,"body":"of people that hide behind, and this is"},{"startTime":2587.446,"endTime":2590.966,"body":"mainly the scrum master, but also a part"},{"startTime":2587.446,"endTime":2590.966,"body":"of people, they say, if it's not in the"},{"startTime":2590.966,"endTime":2592.376,"body":"scrum guide, we shouldn't be doing that."},{"startTime":2592.526,"endTime":2593.726,"body":"We'll just follow the scrum guide."},{"startTime":2593.756,"endTime":2596.096,"body":"It doesn't say how to do"},{"startTime":2593.756,"endTime":2596.096,"body":"this or why we should do it."},{"startTime":2596.176,"endTime":2596.396,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2596.436,"endTime":2600.556,"body":"Backlog refinement is one of those"},{"startTime":2596.436,"endTime":2600.556,"body":"things and it's not an activity there."},{"startTime":2600.556,"endTime":2602.606,"body":"So they're like, well, you"},{"startTime":2600.556,"endTime":2602.606,"body":"know, it's written down."},{"startTime":2602.756,"endTime":2604.746,"body":"They can ask me questions"},{"startTime":2602.756,"endTime":2604.746,"body":"if they're in doubt."},{"startTime":2604.896,"endTime":2605.736,"body":"That is so wrong."},{"startTime":2605.886,"endTime":2608.246,"body":"Because they're not, not everybody's"},{"startTime":2605.886,"endTime":2608.246,"body":"going to ask the questions."},{"startTime":2608.386,"endTime":2610.506,"body":"First of all, people are"},{"startTime":2608.386,"endTime":2610.506,"body":"going to assume things."},{"startTime":2610.856,"endTime":2614.606,"body":"They'll have their own interpretations"},{"startTime":2610.856,"endTime":2614.606,"body":"of what a written word actually means."},{"startTime":2614.756,"endTime":2618.836,"body":"As opposed to having a dialogue and having"},{"startTime":2614.756,"endTime":2618.836,"body":"the opportunity to go back and forth."},{"startTime":2618.856,"endTime":2623.486,"body":"Or just even as a passive participant"},{"startTime":2618.856,"endTime":2623.486,"body":"in that refinement meeting, you're"},{"startTime":2623.636,"endTime":2627.186,"body":"Listening to questions and points"},{"startTime":2623.636,"endTime":2627.186,"body":"that other people are making, which is"},{"startTime":2627.226,"endTime":2629.356,"body":"improving your understanding, right?"},{"startTime":2629.686,"endTime":2632.766,"body":"All of that is gone by the wayside"},{"startTime":2629.686,"endTime":2632.766,"body":"if you do away with the activity."},{"startTime":2632.846,"endTime":2633.086,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":2633.286,"endTime":2636.536,"body":", the interesting part about this is"},{"startTime":2633.286,"endTime":2636.536,"body":"that coaching, coaching, I would"},{"startTime":2636.536,"endTime":2639.706,"body":"expect from my product leader that,"},{"startTime":2636.536,"endTime":2639.706,"body":"that, that should just be a normal"},{"startTime":2639.706,"endTime":2641.686,"body":"part of having a product leader."},{"startTime":2641.826,"endTime":2645.146,"body":"If you're going to call yourself a product"},{"startTime":2641.826,"endTime":2645.146,"body":"leader, you know, which this is not the"},{"startTime":2645.146,"endTime":2648.346,"body":"podcast to dig into the term product"},{"startTime":2645.146,"endTime":2648.346,"body":"leader, because a lot of product leaders."},{"startTime":2648.676,"endTime":2654.296,"body":"Our managers, but I want to crowbar a"},{"startTime":2648.676,"endTime":2654.296,"body":"part product, the role of coach and the"},{"startTime":2654.296,"endTime":2656.346,"body":"role of mentor out of product leader."},{"startTime":2656.496,"endTime":2659.936,"body":"Because there may be product"},{"startTime":2656.496,"endTime":2659.936,"body":"leaders out there that are not"},{"startTime":2659.956,"endTime":2661.306,"body":"capable of being your mentor."},{"startTime":2661.456,"endTime":2665.596,"body":"And like a mentor is someone that"},{"startTime":2661.456,"endTime":2665.596,"body":"to me, mentor is someone that you"},{"startTime":2665.596,"endTime":2670.016,"body":"seek out and a coach is like a"},{"startTime":2665.596,"endTime":2670.016,"body":"role your manager may or may not."},{"startTime":2670.166,"endTime":2671.036,"body":"Be able to play."},{"startTime":2671.256,"endTime":2673.726,"body":"They should be able to play, but"},{"startTime":2671.256,"endTime":2673.726,"body":"may or may not be able to play."},{"startTime":2673.876,"endTime":2675.976,"body":"Do you understand where I'm"},{"startTime":2673.876,"endTime":2675.976,"body":"I do absolutely understand"},{"startTime":2675.976,"endTime":2676.546,"body":"where you're coming from."},{"startTime":2676.546,"endTime":2679.246,"body":"I'm glad that you don't, I'm glad you"},{"startTime":2676.546,"endTime":2679.246,"body":"know where I'm coming from because I'm not"},{"startTime":2679.396,"endTime":2681.146,"body":"exactly sure where I'm going with this."},{"startTime":2681.296,"endTime":2685.676,"body":"Mentorship is something that I think a"},{"startTime":2681.296,"endTime":2685.676,"body":"lot of product leaders can provide because"},{"startTime":2685.676,"endTime":2690.926,"body":"it's all about, here's what's worked in"},{"startTime":2685.676,"endTime":2690.926,"body":"my experience or hasn't worked regardless"},{"startTime":2690.926,"endTime":2692.126,"body":"of what their experience has been."},{"startTime":2692.336,"endTime":2696.266,"body":"That's mentorship, coaching is,"},{"startTime":2692.336,"endTime":2696.266,"body":"let me help you with this journey."},{"startTime":2696.566,"endTime":2696.686,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2696.686,"endTime":2697.016,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2697.166,"endTime":2699.716,"body":"And mentorship could be a subset of that."},{"startTime":2699.956,"endTime":2700.076,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2700.076,"endTime":2703.376,"body":"If the coach has gone through that"},{"startTime":2700.076,"endTime":2703.376,"body":"themselves, but they don't have to"},{"startTime":2703.381,"endTime":2704.396,"body":"have gone through that themselves."},{"startTime":2704.426,"endTime":2704.756,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2704.756,"endTime":2708.746,"body":"This is not the destination that I had in"},{"startTime":2704.756,"endTime":2708.746,"body":"mind when we had this podcast as an idea"},{"startTime":2708.896,"endTime":2712.996,"body":"but since we're here let me walk this"},{"startTime":2708.896,"endTime":2712.996,"body":"road a little bit going back to what I"},{"startTime":2712.996,"endTime":2715.076,"body":"said early in the podcast, where a lot of."},{"startTime":2715.136,"endTime":2720.476,"body":"Quote product leaders, meaning people"},{"startTime":2715.136,"endTime":2720.476,"body":"that hire product managers at the"},{"startTime":2720.476,"endTime":2724.566,"body":"highest level in the organization,"},{"startTime":2720.476,"endTime":2724.566,"body":"the chief product officer, they're not"},{"startTime":2724.566,"endTime":2726.596,"body":"capable of mentoring product managers."},{"startTime":2726.746,"endTime":2728.896,"body":"Now they may be capable of coaching."},{"startTime":2729.076,"endTime":2731.646,"body":"Hey, when I was with you in"},{"startTime":2729.076,"endTime":2731.646,"body":"this meeting, you know, you"},{"startTime":2731.646,"endTime":2733.066,"body":"need to talk to the stakeholder."},{"startTime":2733.066,"endTime":2734.426,"body":"You need to be better at communication."},{"startTime":2734.426,"endTime":2734.976,"body":"You need to be better."},{"startTime":2734.986,"endTime":2739.681,"body":"They might be able to give you some,"},{"startTime":2734.986,"endTime":2739.681,"body":"Some general coaching advice, but"},{"startTime":2739.831,"endTime":2742.211,"body":"is that, is that also mentorship?"},{"startTime":2742.301,"endTime":2742.391,"body":"Like."},{"startTime":2742.541,"endTime":2744.021,"body":"I don't, I'm not sure."},{"startTime":2744.031,"endTime":2745.441,"body":"No, it's not by definition."},{"startTime":2745.441,"endTime":2750.361,"body":"Look, if these CPO level people"},{"startTime":2745.441,"endTime":2750.361,"body":"can not mentor you, it's because"},{"startTime":2750.381,"endTime":2754.461,"body":"they've not had the experience"},{"startTime":2750.381,"endTime":2754.461,"body":"themselves that you are either going"},{"startTime":2754.461,"endTime":2755.551,"body":"through or about to go through."},{"startTime":2755.701,"endTime":2757.431,"body":"And we said earlier in the podcast."},{"startTime":2757.581,"endTime":2761.841,"body":"That's quite a lot of CPS out there"},{"startTime":2757.581,"endTime":2761.841,"body":"that haven't done the work themselves,"},{"startTime":2761.921,"endTime":2763.701,"body":"but they have the position, right?"},{"startTime":2763.851,"endTime":2767.391,"body":"So in that case, they're not qualified"},{"startTime":2763.851,"endTime":2767.391,"body":"to mentor you because they haven't"},{"startTime":2767.391,"endTime":2771.441,"body":"gone through it themselves Now to your"},{"startTime":2767.391,"endTime":2771.441,"body":"point about them being able to coach"},{"startTime":2771.591,"endTime":2775.701,"body":"right on Things that they can do that"},{"startTime":2771.591,"endTime":2775.701,"body":"after the fact and say, you know in"},{"startTime":2775.701,"endTime":2780.121,"body":"this meeting you could have handled"},{"startTime":2775.701,"endTime":2780.121,"body":"this this way, etc Okay, I mean that's"},{"startTime":2780.121,"endTime":2783.711,"body":"fine, but it's really not Not it's"},{"startTime":2780.121,"endTime":2783.711,"body":"really not coaching at that point."},{"startTime":2783.741,"endTime":2784.031,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2784.181,"endTime":2785.391,"body":"Not even sure what that is."},{"startTime":2785.451,"endTime":2789.531,"body":"I think it's post event facilitation"},{"startTime":2785.451,"endTime":2789.531,"body":"kind of feedback is what that is."},{"startTime":2789.681,"endTime":2792.481,"body":"If they were coaching, they"},{"startTime":2789.681,"endTime":2792.481,"body":"would say when you did that."},{"startTime":2792.631,"endTime":2793.951,"body":"What did you expect to happen?"},{"startTime":2793.961,"endTime":2795.191,"body":"And what, what actually happened?"},{"startTime":2795.191,"endTime":2796.361,"body":"How could you have done it?"},{"startTime":2796.701,"endTime":2801.381,"body":"So it's all asking more questions"},{"startTime":2796.701,"endTime":2801.381,"body":"than giving directives, and then"},{"startTime":2801.531,"endTime":2804.241,"body":"letting you figure out what you"},{"startTime":2801.531,"endTime":2804.241,"body":"could have done differently yourself."},{"startTime":2804.391,"endTime":2805.991,"body":"And then leaving with a commitment."},{"startTime":2806.021,"endTime":2807.511,"body":"What are you going to"},{"startTime":2806.021,"endTime":2807.511,"body":"try different next time?"},{"startTime":2807.661,"endTime":2808.401,"body":"That's coaching."},{"startTime":2808.591,"endTime":2810.871,"body":"I don't see many CPOs doing that either."},{"startTime":2810.951,"endTime":2813.911,"body":"Unfortunately, I could see them"},{"startTime":2810.951,"endTime":2813.911,"body":"doing that, but it wouldn't"},{"startTime":2813.911,"endTime":2815.661,"body":"be on product practices."},{"startTime":2815.811,"endTime":2819.401,"body":"It would be on operations"},{"startTime":2815.811,"endTime":2819.401,"body":"practices or, or, you know, sales"},{"startTime":2819.401,"endTime":2822.241,"body":"or interpersonal relationship"},{"startTime":2819.401,"endTime":2822.241,"body":"building or something like that."},{"startTime":2822.251,"endTime":2826.111,"body":"It would be things that are adjacent"},{"startTime":2822.251,"endTime":2826.111,"body":"to product, but, but they would never,"},{"startTime":2826.131,"endTime":2830.961,"body":"they would never coach you on something"},{"startTime":2826.131,"endTime":2830.961,"body":"to say like, Hey, when you said that I"},{"startTime":2830.961,"endTime":2836.371,"body":"need X feature over Y feature, or that"},{"startTime":2830.961,"endTime":2836.371,"body":"we need, you know, all customers need"},{"startTime":2836.371,"endTime":2838.671,"body":"to be able to perform X functionality."},{"startTime":2838.821,"endTime":2842.261,"body":"Don't you think you could have posed"},{"startTime":2838.821,"endTime":2842.261,"body":"that as a question or an A B test"},{"startTime":2842.261,"endTime":2846.731,"body":"of some side, some type to say okay,"},{"startTime":2842.261,"endTime":2846.731,"body":"everyone on the development team says"},{"startTime":2846.981,"endTime":2851.891,"body":"we've got to do functionality X before"},{"startTime":2846.981,"endTime":2851.891,"body":"functionality Y, but how do, how do"},{"startTime":2851.891,"endTime":2856.161,"body":"we know that functionality X or Y"},{"startTime":2851.891,"endTime":2856.161,"body":"are the things that we need to do?"},{"startTime":2856.471,"endTime":2859.941,"body":"Maybe we need to just test"},{"startTime":2856.471,"endTime":2859.941,"body":"functionality X and depending"},{"startTime":2860.071,"endTime":2861.691,"body":"on what comes out of the test."},{"startTime":2861.841,"endTime":2868.591,"body":"Then we try Y or Z or AA or AC or"},{"startTime":2861.841,"endTime":2868.591,"body":"whatever, like a million other options."},{"startTime":2868.841,"endTime":2872.071,"body":"Like they're, they're not coaching"},{"startTime":2868.841,"endTime":2872.071,"body":"you on product discovery practices."},{"startTime":2872.281,"endTime":2874.561,"body":"They're coaching you more on general."},{"startTime":2874.711,"endTime":2876.951,"body":"I'm not going to say life coach, cause"},{"startTime":2874.711,"endTime":2876.951,"body":"that's not what it is, but they're,"},{"startTime":2876.981,"endTime":2880.791,"body":"they're coaching you more in general,"},{"startTime":2876.981,"endTime":2880.791,"body":"interpersonal skills or sales skills,"},{"startTime":2880.791,"endTime":2884.261,"body":"or, I mean, related skills that were"},{"startTime":2880.791,"endTime":2884.261,"body":"related to product management, but"},{"startTime":2884.261,"endTime":2885.811,"body":"they're not exactly product management."},{"startTime":2885.961,"endTime":2887.051,"body":"So I don't know."},{"startTime":2887.071,"endTime":2887.461,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2887.461,"endTime":2890.671,"body":"I don't even know what point I'm trying"},{"startTime":2887.461,"endTime":2890.671,"body":"to make anymore is that kind of coaching"},{"startTime":2890.681,"endTime":2894.931,"body":"is not I'm not saying that kind of"},{"startTime":2890.681,"endTime":2894.931,"body":"coaching is doesn't have value, right?"},{"startTime":2894.961,"endTime":2897.831,"body":"It still does, but it's"},{"startTime":2894.961,"endTime":2897.831,"body":"just not product management."},{"startTime":2897.831,"endTime":2898.491,"body":"Correct?"},{"startTime":2898.561,"endTime":2899.111,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2899.111,"endTime":2900.141,"body":"Let's just call it what it is."},{"startTime":2900.241,"endTime":2900.991,"body":"I'm with you on that one."},{"startTime":2901.051,"endTime":2901.331,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2901.331,"endTime":2904.201,"body":"Well, you've you've turned me"},{"startTime":2901.331,"endTime":2904.201,"body":"around and I'm on your side now."},{"startTime":2904.201,"endTime":2906.371,"body":"So Successful Arguing Agile tonight."},{"startTime":2906.431,"endTime":2911.031,"body":"I'm super interested if anyone listening"},{"startTime":2906.431,"endTime":2911.031,"body":"to this, Has a hot take on you know,"},{"startTime":2911.311,"endTime":2914.521,"body":"any, any of what we're talking about,"},{"startTime":2911.311,"endTime":2914.521,"body":"especially the, but what we, what we"},{"startTime":2914.521,"endTime":2916.811,"body":"wrapped up with is mentoring and coaching."},{"startTime":2916.811,"endTime":2921.581,"body":"And,  when you're quote leadership"},{"startTime":2916.811,"endTime":2921.581,"body":"and quote, quote, cause I mean,"},{"startTime":2921.581,"endTime":2924.741,"body":"really it's management we're"},{"startTime":2921.581,"endTime":2924.741,"body":"talking about when they basically"},{"startTime":2924.741,"endTime":2925.911,"body":"don't have the skill to coach you."},{"startTime":2926.251,"endTime":2930.001,"body":"Like I mean that they don't have the"},{"startTime":2926.251,"endTime":2930.001,"body":"skill to coach you in your primary role."},{"startTime":2930.151,"endTime":2933.501,"body":"I'm not trying to make a statement"},{"startTime":2930.151,"endTime":2933.501,"body":"that is, that, that, that says that,"},{"startTime":2933.591,"endTime":2935.831,"body":"that, that coaching is not valuable."},{"startTime":2935.971,"endTime":2936.261,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2936.561,"endTime":2938.071,"body":"It certainly could be."},{"startTime":2938.421,"endTime":2940.281,"body":"But like if you're new."},{"startTime":2940.431,"endTime":2945.071,"body":"And you're onboarding and they giving"},{"startTime":2940.431,"endTime":2945.071,"body":"you general advice like, okay, that, I"},{"startTime":2945.081,"endTime":2948.891,"body":"guess that's helpful for you as a person"},{"startTime":2945.081,"endTime":2948.891,"body":"in all of your, you know, interpersonal"},{"startTime":2948.901,"endTime":2949.981,"body":"communication and everything."},{"startTime":2950.321,"endTime":2953.651,"body":"But when we're talking about like, well,"},{"startTime":2950.321,"endTime":2953.651,"body":"how do you, how do you choose to make"},{"startTime":2953.661,"endTime":2956.631,"body":"bets in the market and test those bets?"},{"startTime":2956.841,"endTime":2959.531,"body":"And, and, and how do you know,"},{"startTime":2956.841,"endTime":2959.531,"body":"how do you identify that something"},{"startTime":2959.541,"endTime":2960.871,"body":"is an assumption versus evidence?"},{"startTime":2961.206,"endTime":2964.776,"body":"And how do you choose what evidence"},{"startTime":2961.206,"endTime":2964.776,"body":"to pick over other evidence?"},{"startTime":2964.776,"endTime":2967.646,"body":"Like they're not coaching you on"},{"startTime":2964.776,"endTime":2967.646,"body":"product management, specific things,"},{"startTime":2967.796,"endTime":2972.006,"body":"just identifying when, when, when"},{"startTime":2967.796,"endTime":2972.006,"body":"things are not exactly equal and"},{"startTime":2972.006,"endTime":2975.056,"body":"kind of understanding like, ah, you"},{"startTime":2972.006,"endTime":2975.056,"body":"know, maybe this person doesn't have,"},{"startTime":2975.096,"endTime":2976.836,"body":"doesn't have the exact right skill."},{"startTime":2976.986,"endTime":2979.816,"body":"That I need to advance"},{"startTime":2976.986,"endTime":2979.816,"body":"myself in my career."},{"startTime":2980.066,"endTime":2983.936,"body":"Now you've got to go pound the pavement"},{"startTime":2980.066,"endTime":2983.936,"body":"and go look for a mentor on your own."},{"startTime":2984.086,"endTime":2984.426,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2984.426,"endTime":2987.196,"body":"It would be great to hear from people"},{"startTime":2984.426,"endTime":2987.196,"body":"with, with, you know, that kind of"},{"startTime":2987.196,"endTime":2992.306,"body":"feedback as well as if you are or have"},{"startTime":2987.196,"endTime":2992.306,"body":"onboarded and your experiences being"},{"startTime":2992.306,"endTime":2995.536,"body":"that all you're getting is advice"},{"startTime":2992.306,"endTime":2995.536,"body":"that your grandma might give you and"},{"startTime":2995.536,"endTime":3000.536,"body":"not necessarily product management"},{"startTime":2995.536,"endTime":3000.536,"body":"related advice, you know let us know."},{"startTime":3000.586,"endTime":3001.626,"body":"We'd love to hear from you."},{"startTime":3001.866,"endTime":3002.096,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":3002.246,"endTime":3003.656,"body":"We'd love to hear about your grandma."},{"startTime":3003.716,"endTime":3004.016,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3004.166,"endTime":3007.776,"body":"And also your grandma told me you should"},{"startTime":3004.166,"endTime":3007.776,"body":"like, as described to this podcast."},{"startTime":3007.796,"endTime":3008.426,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3008.446,"endTime":3009.536,"body":"Ring that bell down below."},{"startTime":3009.536,"endTime":3010.486,"body":"She said yeah."}]}