{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"welcome to the arguing the Agile podcast"},{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"where enterprise business agility"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"coach Om Patel and me product manager"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"Brian Orlando debate the real world"},{"startTime":8.45,"endTime":10.54,"body":"challenges Agile professionals will face."},{"startTime":10.74,"endTime":12.329,"body":"We are not here to sell you anything."},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"We are here to argue about"},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"Agile so that you don't have to."},{"startTime":17.952,"endTime":19.381,"body":"Om, I wanted to ask you a question."},{"startTime":19.581,"endTime":22.751,"body":"Have you ever been on a team that"},{"startTime":19.581,"endTime":22.751,"body":"management comes in and shuffles all"},{"startTime":22.751,"endTime":26.641,"body":"the team members amongst all the teams"},{"startTime":22.751,"endTime":26.641,"body":"and gives you new teams and new team"},{"startTime":26.641,"endTime":29.381,"body":"sizes and tells you, all right, go."},{"startTime":29.531,"endTime":30.321,"body":"Oh my God."},{"startTime":30.381,"endTime":31.531,"body":"Yes, absolutely."},{"startTime":31.531,"endTime":33.011,"body":"I have been in that situation."},{"startTime":33.161,"endTime":33.911,"body":"We're starting well."},{"startTime":34.061,"endTime":37.421,"body":"Yeah, because you know, there's"},{"startTime":34.061,"endTime":37.421,"body":"this this is the illusion of doing"},{"startTime":37.601,"endTime":41.471,"body":"something to fix the problem from"},{"startTime":37.601,"endTime":41.471,"body":"the management perspective, shuffle"},{"startTime":41.471,"endTime":44.831,"body":"teams around because you know, what"},{"startTime":41.471,"endTime":44.831,"body":"we have isn't good enough to, it's not"},{"startTime":44.831,"endTime":46.451,"body":"meeting performance to our standards."},{"startTime":46.461,"endTime":48.311,"body":"So shift things around, right?"},{"startTime":48.371,"endTime":52.251,"body":"I don't know how tightly we're going to"},{"startTime":48.371,"endTime":52.251,"body":"be stuck to the format of arguing agile"},{"startTime":52.251,"endTime":55.221,"body":"on this one, because who makes these"},{"startTime":52.251,"endTime":55.221,"body":"calls to shuffle people, usually it's"},{"startTime":55.221,"endTime":59.141,"body":"either the quote, the Resource managers."},{"startTime":59.291,"endTime":59.731,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":60.021,"endTime":61.071,"body":"Sometimes it's the PMO."},{"startTime":61.071,"endTime":63.501,"body":"If the PMO has budget for all this,"},{"startTime":61.071,"endTime":63.501,"body":"they'll shuffle people or whatever."},{"startTime":63.681,"endTime":67.581,"body":"I feel the root under all that, what"},{"startTime":63.681,"endTime":67.581,"body":"we're about to talk about behind"},{"startTime":67.581,"endTime":71.711,"body":"the root of all this is somebody"},{"startTime":67.581,"endTime":71.711,"body":"who holds the purse strings."},{"startTime":71.861,"endTime":75.651,"body":"Somebody who has the budget"},{"startTime":71.861,"endTime":75.651,"body":"feels like they're not getting"},{"startTime":75.651,"endTime":76.791,"body":"what they're paying for."},{"startTime":76.851,"endTime":79.181,"body":"Feels like that."},{"startTime":79.186,"endTime":79.416,"body":"That's, yeah."},{"startTime":79.416,"endTime":82.841,"body":"And those people, that's an"},{"startTime":79.416,"endTime":82.841,"body":"emotional, by the way, not, not"},{"startTime":82.846,"endTime":84.971,"body":"a, not a logical on numbers."},{"startTime":84.971,"endTime":87.251,"body":"We're not seeing on"},{"startTime":84.971,"endTime":87.251,"body":"paper, on my spreadsheet."},{"startTime":87.401,"endTime":90.191,"body":"That's a, I feel we're"},{"startTime":87.401,"endTime":90.191,"body":"not, it's a gut feel thing."},{"startTime":90.191,"endTime":93.686,"body":"And sometimes that is fed also"},{"startTime":90.191,"endTime":93.686,"body":"to those folks by other people."},{"startTime":93.836,"endTime":96.396,"body":"It's like, we feel like these"},{"startTime":93.836,"endTime":96.396,"body":"teams are slacking again."},{"startTime":96.406,"endTime":99.906,"body":"There's, there's nothing underlying"},{"startTime":96.406,"endTime":99.906,"body":"that in terms of data, but these"},{"startTime":99.916,"endTime":103.976,"body":"teams are slacking and they can maybe"},{"startTime":99.916,"endTime":103.976,"body":"this one or two, these, we have two"},{"startTime":103.976,"endTime":107.136,"body":"people that are really good and we"},{"startTime":103.976,"endTime":107.136,"body":"have four people that are meh take"},{"startTime":107.136,"endTime":110.446,"body":"these two people and we can put one of"},{"startTime":107.136,"endTime":110.446,"body":"them over there and one of them over"},{"startTime":110.446,"endTime":112.586,"body":"there and they can bring everybody up."},{"startTime":112.826,"endTime":115.006,"body":"And these other ones, well,"},{"startTime":112.826,"endTime":115.006,"body":"we'll see where they fit in."},{"startTime":115.016,"endTime":116.886,"body":"If they don't, well, we"},{"startTime":115.016,"endTime":116.886,"body":"can just dispense with it."},{"startTime":117.036,"endTime":117.316,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":117.366,"endTime":121.736,"body":"What about the case where it is"},{"startTime":117.366,"endTime":121.736,"body":"legitimate, where management is seeing"},{"startTime":121.736,"endTime":125.286,"body":"problems and they're saying, look,"},{"startTime":121.736,"endTime":125.286,"body":"these teams are just not working the way"},{"startTime":125.326,"endTime":126.706,"body":"the way they're organized or whatever."},{"startTime":126.706,"endTime":128.326,"body":"I guess we'll get into"},{"startTime":126.706,"endTime":128.326,"body":"that on this podcast."},{"startTime":128.326,"endTime":131.646,"body":"I guess we will yeah, we will,"},{"startTime":128.326,"endTime":131.646,"body":"there's no spoilers here, but by the"},{"startTime":131.646,"endTime":134.786,"body":"time we get into that, we'll figure"},{"startTime":131.646,"endTime":134.786,"body":"out like, how do they know that?"},{"startTime":134.936,"endTime":135.716,"body":"Yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":135.716,"endTime":139.306,"body":"Yeah, I think that would be helpful to"},{"startTime":135.716,"endTime":139.306,"body":"people listening is that how do they know"},{"startTime":139.306,"endTime":141.706,"body":"that like what are the indicators of each?"},{"startTime":141.856,"endTime":145.591,"body":"I want to start with what Anybody"},{"startTime":141.856,"endTime":145.591,"body":"listening to this podcast is going to"},{"startTime":145.591,"endTime":149.771,"body":"point out that says, Hey, anytime you"},{"startTime":145.591,"endTime":149.771,"body":"change a team in any way, shape or"},{"startTime":149.771,"endTime":153.871,"body":"form, whether it's management doing"},{"startTime":149.771,"endTime":153.871,"body":"it or whether it's the, the, the team"},{"startTime":153.911,"endTime":155.611,"body":"asking for the change or whatever."},{"startTime":155.671,"endTime":158.881,"body":"And you've decided to add somebody or"},{"startTime":155.671,"endTime":158.881,"body":"take someone away from the team for"},{"startTime":158.881,"endTime":163.311,"body":"whatever, whatever the reasons are, you're"},{"startTime":158.881,"endTime":163.311,"body":"disrupting the current team dynamic."},{"startTime":163.461,"endTime":164.591,"body":"Basically that you're going."},{"startTime":164.741,"endTime":165.411,"body":"Tuckman's model."},{"startTime":165.411,"endTime":166.081,"body":"Is that what we say?"},{"startTime":166.231,"endTime":170.161,"body":"You're going back to forming all the,"},{"startTime":166.231,"endTime":170.161,"body":"you're taking the team out of whatever"},{"startTime":170.161,"endTime":173.281,"body":"phase they're in and they're going all"},{"startTime":170.161,"endTime":173.281,"body":"the way back to forming every time."},{"startTime":173.421,"endTime":176.981,"body":"So this is something that's"},{"startTime":173.421,"endTime":176.981,"body":"very, very misunderstood, right?"},{"startTime":176.981,"endTime":178.171,"body":"People say, well, what do you mean?"},{"startTime":178.171,"endTime":179.831,"body":"It's only one little change."},{"startTime":179.981,"endTime":181.511,"body":"Teams have been around a long time."},{"startTime":181.661,"endTime":182.641,"body":"We're only changing one person."},{"startTime":182.751,"endTime":184.451,"body":"What they don't understand is."},{"startTime":184.601,"endTime":188.621,"body":"And you hit that right there, Tuckman's"},{"startTime":184.601,"endTime":188.621,"body":"model, they go back, no matter where"},{"startTime":188.621,"endTime":193.051,"body":"they're at, they go back to forming"},{"startTime":188.621,"endTime":193.051,"body":"because you're looking at the number of"},{"startTime":193.201,"endTime":197.401,"body":"communication channels, vectors, dynamics,"},{"startTime":193.201,"endTime":197.401,"body":"whatever you want to call it with one"},{"startTime":197.411,"endTime":199.601,"body":"team member versus six others, right?"},{"startTime":199.911,"endTime":203.421,"body":"So you can do the math, as I always like"},{"startTime":199.911,"endTime":203.421,"body":"to say when there's numbers involved,"},{"startTime":203.421,"endTime":204.251,"body":"because I don't want to do the math."},{"startTime":204.541,"endTime":208.781,"body":"People do fall, the team falls"},{"startTime":204.541,"endTime":208.781,"body":"back to forming at every stage"},{"startTime":208.781,"endTime":210.881,"body":"when there's even a single change."},{"startTime":210.911,"endTime":214.801,"body":"Meaning, if you have a new person added to"},{"startTime":210.911,"endTime":214.801,"body":"the team, or you have one person removed,"},{"startTime":214.951,"endTime":219.661,"body":"or replaced, like for like, still,"},{"startTime":214.951,"endTime":219.661,"body":"the team goes back to forming, because"},{"startTime":219.661,"endTime":224.031,"body":"that's the human dynamic principles of"},{"startTime":219.661,"endTime":224.031,"body":"how we work together as human beings."},{"startTime":224.181,"endTime":227.181,"body":"And, and this isn't very well understood"},{"startTime":224.181,"endTime":227.181,"body":"by people that are making these"},{"startTime":227.181,"endTime":231.361,"body":"decisions, because they're making them"},{"startTime":227.181,"endTime":231.361,"body":"on other, based on other factors, right?"},{"startTime":231.591,"endTime":233.171,"body":"Typically, on hearsay."},{"startTime":233.321,"endTime":237.671,"body":"Typically on very seldom really on"},{"startTime":233.321,"endTime":237.671,"body":"performance, I would say, because by"},{"startTime":237.671,"endTime":241.241,"body":"the time they look at performance,"},{"startTime":237.671,"endTime":241.241,"body":"that isn't really one person's thing."},{"startTime":241.241,"endTime":245.231,"body":"It's not one developer, one"},{"startTime":241.241,"endTime":245.231,"body":"tester, one you UX anybody,"},{"startTime":245.251,"endTime":247.141,"body":"really one person's one person."},{"startTime":247.291,"endTime":251.521,"body":"So their contribution isn't really"},{"startTime":247.291,"endTime":251.521,"body":"what's causing them, I mean, there"},{"startTime":251.521,"endTime":255.551,"body":"are exceptions, of course, but isn't"},{"startTime":251.521,"endTime":255.551,"body":"causing them to be the outcast here the"},{"startTime":255.721,"endTime":257.611,"body":"target person that gets changed out."},{"startTime":257.761,"endTime":262.081,"body":"Let's stay on disrupting the"},{"startTime":257.761,"endTime":262.081,"body":"team's dynamic for a minute."},{"startTime":262.361,"endTime":266.301,"body":"This little topic, subtopic in"},{"startTime":262.361,"endTime":266.301,"body":"the podcast that we're exploring."},{"startTime":266.451,"endTime":270.631,"body":"It's really, Fairly complicated because"},{"startTime":266.451,"endTime":270.631,"body":"depending on you could be replacing a"},{"startTime":270.641,"endTime":274.821,"body":"very like the cornerstone of the team"},{"startTime":270.641,"endTime":274.821,"body":"like a very big personality That's"},{"startTime":274.821,"endTime":278.241,"body":"been there a long time has a lot of"},{"startTime":274.821,"endTime":278.241,"body":"knowledge or a very stable member of"},{"startTime":278.241,"endTime":281.031,"body":"your team that you know They're they're"},{"startTime":278.241,"endTime":281.031,"body":"the person everyone goes back to when"},{"startTime":281.031,"endTime":285.501,"body":"they need help or whatever and you when"},{"startTime":281.031,"endTime":285.501,"body":"you replace that person now It's not"},{"startTime":285.501,"endTime":287.936,"body":"really knowledge that you're losing."},{"startTime":287.946,"endTime":292.736,"body":"It's that, that, that centered,"},{"startTime":287.946,"endTime":292.736,"body":"that very centered person who is"},{"startTime":292.736,"endTime":294.656,"body":"like a very steady part of the team."},{"startTime":294.816,"endTime":298.106,"body":"And now the team has to figure out"},{"startTime":294.816,"endTime":298.106,"body":"how to work without this, that,"},{"startTime":298.116,"endTime":300.006,"body":"that steadying factor anymore."},{"startTime":300.026,"endTime":303.626,"body":"Like it could be something like that,"},{"startTime":300.026,"endTime":303.626,"body":"that's very difficult to explain on a"},{"startTime":303.626,"endTime":308.256,"body":"financial sheet on the bottom line of"},{"startTime":303.626,"endTime":308.256,"body":"Oh, your, your team has six people,"},{"startTime":308.276,"endTime":309.646,"body":"but this other team has four people."},{"startTime":309.646,"endTime":313.276,"body":"So we need one of your people to balance"},{"startTime":309.646,"endTime":313.276,"body":"out the run rates of all the teams."},{"startTime":313.536,"endTime":313.926,"body":"Well."},{"startTime":314.076,"endTime":317.416,"body":"Who do you take like, okay, well, I'm"},{"startTime":314.076,"endTime":317.416,"body":"just going to pick that person cause"},{"startTime":317.416,"endTime":318.976,"body":"everyone's kind of got the same skills."},{"startTime":319.196,"endTime":320.146,"body":"So I'm just picking that person."},{"startTime":320.146,"endTime":323.196,"body":"But you pick the person"},{"startTime":320.146,"endTime":323.196,"body":"who is the steadying factor"},{"startTime":323.196,"endTime":326.856,"body":"I think of a team where you have"},{"startTime":323.196,"endTime":326.856,"body":"one person that's very, very, very"},{"startTime":326.856,"endTime":330.316,"body":"reasonable and you have many other"},{"startTime":326.856,"endTime":330.316,"body":"people that are very, very opinionated"},{"startTime":330.316,"endTime":333.786,"body":"on the team and you always have this"},{"startTime":330.316,"endTime":333.786,"body":"one person that's very moderate and"},{"startTime":333.836,"endTime":337.786,"body":"again, they're a, they're a balancing"},{"startTime":333.836,"endTime":337.786,"body":"factor between extremes on the team."},{"startTime":338.006,"endTime":343.426,"body":"And now when you remove that, now the"},{"startTime":338.006,"endTime":343.426,"body":"team has to learn how to de conflict."},{"startTime":343.576,"endTime":345.446,"body":"That is not easy to do."},{"startTime":345.446,"endTime":347.836,"body":"So first of all, let me go back"},{"startTime":345.446,"endTime":347.836,"body":"to the point you made earlier."},{"startTime":347.876,"endTime":352.716,"body":"This, this is not a topic that is"},{"startTime":347.876,"endTime":352.716,"body":"either discussed widely, understood"},{"startTime":352.716,"endTime":354.696,"body":"widely, or even enacted upon."},{"startTime":354.696,"endTime":354.896,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":354.896,"endTime":358.726,"body":"So people look at that as a role and"},{"startTime":354.896,"endTime":358.726,"body":"say, well, we're going to replace this"},{"startTime":358.726,"endTime":360.486,"body":"developer because we got this other one."},{"startTime":360.486,"endTime":363.296,"body":"And you know, per hour, they're cheaper,"},{"startTime":360.486,"endTime":363.296,"body":"but they have the same skillset."},{"startTime":363.446,"endTime":364.026,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":364.176,"endTime":367.696,"body":"And they've been in the industry"},{"startTime":364.176,"endTime":367.696,"body":"longer, but the person that is the"},{"startTime":367.756,"endTime":373.596,"body":"outgoing person is one that is always"},{"startTime":367.756,"endTime":373.596,"body":"available to people to ask questions."},{"startTime":373.656,"endTime":374.666,"body":"They're a team player."},{"startTime":374.806,"endTime":378.646,"body":"They're always available and they're"},{"startTime":374.806,"endTime":378.646,"body":"always making themselves you know"},{"startTime":378.756,"endTime":380.116,"body":"they're not the center of attention."},{"startTime":380.176,"endTime":380.856,"body":"That's all I'm saying."},{"startTime":380.876,"endTime":386.176,"body":"What I'm saying is they are always willing"},{"startTime":380.876,"endTime":386.176,"body":"to lend a hand, helping bring others up."},{"startTime":386.316,"endTime":386.636,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":386.786,"endTime":389.286,"body":"And the replacement has the"},{"startTime":386.786,"endTime":389.286,"body":"same skill sets on paper."},{"startTime":389.436,"endTime":391.246,"body":"Maybe even cheaper, which is the allure."},{"startTime":391.396,"endTime":393.426,"body":"But this one aspect is missing."},{"startTime":393.436,"endTime":395.766,"body":"People can't go to that"},{"startTime":393.436,"endTime":395.766,"body":"person anymore, right?"},{"startTime":395.846,"endTime":399.076,"body":"So forget the fact that they go back"},{"startTime":395.846,"endTime":399.076,"body":"to forming, even after they come out"},{"startTime":399.076,"endTime":402.716,"body":"of there, they are still missing that"},{"startTime":399.076,"endTime":402.716,"body":"element where they can rely on somebody"},{"startTime":402.716,"endTime":408.946,"body":"who has a reasoned Voice and they're"},{"startTime":402.716,"endTime":408.946,"body":"not afraid to say things, right?"},{"startTime":409.266,"endTime":410.676,"body":"So how do you replace that?"},{"startTime":410.696,"endTime":413.976,"body":"You don't, you don't, I think"},{"startTime":410.696,"endTime":413.976,"body":"the team suffers as a result."},{"startTime":414.026,"endTime":417.526,"body":"I think whoever's making"},{"startTime":414.026,"endTime":417.526,"body":"this call to do the replacing"},{"startTime":417.666,"endTime":420.106,"body":"actually having gone through this"},{"startTime":417.666,"endTime":420.106,"body":"experience or replacing people"},{"startTime":420.106,"endTime":423.776,"body":"like that on the team is, Oh,"},{"startTime":420.106,"endTime":423.776,"body":"we'll just have the dev lead"},{"startTime":423.806,"endTime":425.066,"body":"who's not really part of the team."},{"startTime":425.066,"endTime":427.606,"body":"They're just like, they're"},{"startTime":425.066,"endTime":427.606,"body":"like a manager level, right?"},{"startTime":427.806,"endTime":432.746,"body":"We'll have them step in for a"},{"startTime":427.806,"endTime":432.746,"body":"time or the dedicate them 25"},{"startTime":432.746,"endTime":434.326,"body":"percent of the time to your team."},{"startTime":434.326,"endTime":437.146,"body":"And they, they can work you through"},{"startTime":434.326,"endTime":437.146,"body":"this transition or whatever."},{"startTime":437.146,"endTime":439.516,"body":"I mean, how can you, how are you"},{"startTime":437.146,"endTime":439.516,"body":"gonna replace a dedicated team"},{"startTime":439.516,"endTime":442.416,"body":"member with a part timer and"},{"startTime":439.516,"endTime":442.416,"body":"expect them to actually make it?"},{"startTime":442.456,"endTime":445.186,"body":"First of all, how's it, how's a part timer"},{"startTime":442.456,"endTime":445.186,"body":"on the team going to make any difference?"},{"startTime":445.486,"endTime":448.706,"body":"First of all, yeah, their,"},{"startTime":445.486,"endTime":448.706,"body":"their loyalties are divided."},{"startTime":448.856,"endTime":450.166,"body":"So even beyond that,"},{"startTime":450.176,"endTime":451.616,"body":"so I can share an anecdote here."},{"startTime":451.616,"endTime":454.636,"body":"I just thought about something that"},{"startTime":451.616,"endTime":454.636,"body":"actually happened with one of my teams."},{"startTime":454.786,"endTime":457.116,"body":"There was a fairly junior developer."},{"startTime":457.266,"endTime":460.296,"body":"Not necessarily somebody straight out of"},{"startTime":457.266,"endTime":460.296,"body":"college, a couple of years of experience,"},{"startTime":460.296,"endTime":465.896,"body":"but he had the demeanor where he can"},{"startTime":460.296,"endTime":465.896,"body":"talk to customers in non technical terms."},{"startTime":466.046,"endTime":469.546,"body":"We have senior people on the"},{"startTime":466.046,"endTime":469.546,"body":"team, fantastic developers, right?"},{"startTime":469.556,"endTime":470.036,"body":"Seasoned."},{"startTime":470.186,"endTime":473.606,"body":"They cannot talk in non"},{"startTime":470.186,"endTime":473.606,"body":"technical terms to customers."},{"startTime":473.606,"endTime":476.416,"body":"So this guy, they always push"},{"startTime":473.606,"endTime":476.416,"body":"this guy in front, right?"},{"startTime":476.606,"endTime":479.176,"body":"While the customer's calling,"},{"startTime":476.606,"endTime":479.176,"body":"you explain to them, right?"},{"startTime":479.216,"endTime":481.236,"body":"And he did very, very well."},{"startTime":481.386,"endTime":485.436,"body":"This is the inevitable that"},{"startTime":481.386,"endTime":485.436,"body":"happened and he got shuffled out."},{"startTime":485.586,"endTime":488.626,"body":"They let go of him, but just shuffled him"},{"startTime":485.586,"endTime":488.626,"body":"outside of the team to some other team."},{"startTime":488.646,"endTime":493.316,"body":"And now they put somebody else in"},{"startTime":488.646,"endTime":493.316,"body":"who had the same, roughly the same"},{"startTime":493.316,"endTime":497.296,"body":"amount of experience in terms of,"},{"startTime":493.316,"endTime":497.296,"body":"technical prowess capability, whatever."},{"startTime":497.626,"endTime":501.706,"body":"But they didn't have the ability to"},{"startTime":497.626,"endTime":501.706,"body":"explain to customers what they're"},{"startTime":501.706,"endTime":503.886,"body":"talking about in non technical terms."},{"startTime":504.216,"endTime":508.326,"body":"And it came to a head really, really"},{"startTime":504.216,"endTime":508.326,"body":"quickly, really quickly where customers"},{"startTime":508.326,"endTime":510.216,"body":"said, we have no idea what's going on."},{"startTime":510.236,"endTime":510.566,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":510.716,"endTime":511.986,"body":"Didn't so and so talk to you?"},{"startTime":512.046,"endTime":512.626,"body":"You know, they just."},{"startTime":512.776,"endTime":514.496,"body":"No, they can't do it."},{"startTime":514.686,"endTime":518.666,"body":"So whoever makes the decision"},{"startTime":514.686,"endTime":518.666,"body":"needs to take that into account."},{"startTime":518.676,"endTime":521.806,"body":"This is not stuff that, that"},{"startTime":518.676,"endTime":521.806,"body":"finds its way on any spreadsheet."},{"startTime":521.956,"endTime":522.286,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":522.566,"endTime":524.796,"body":"I mean, you have to know people."},{"startTime":524.946,"endTime":527.256,"body":"That's what it boils down"},{"startTime":524.946,"endTime":527.256,"body":"to before making decisions."},{"startTime":527.526,"endTime":531.476,"body":"I mean, you like the, at the point"},{"startTime":527.526,"endTime":531.476,"body":"where I want to, I want to ask you, I"},{"startTime":531.476,"endTime":535.756,"body":"want to jump into the things that find"},{"startTime":531.476,"endTime":535.756,"body":"their way on the spreadsheets or not."},{"startTime":535.786,"endTime":538.176,"body":"The size of the spreadsheet that"},{"startTime":535.786,"endTime":538.176,"body":"you would have the matrix of the"},{"startTime":538.176,"endTime":541.686,"body":"spreadsheet by people and skills"},{"startTime":538.176,"endTime":541.686,"body":"that you would need to have both"},{"startTime":541.686,"endTime":544.056,"body":"technical skills, interpersonal skills."},{"startTime":544.286,"endTime":544.626,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":544.776,"endTime":546.576,"body":"Soft skills and other categories."},{"startTime":546.586,"endTime":547.656,"body":"There are several categories."},{"startTime":547.656,"endTime":547.811,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":548.021,"endTime":551.321,"body":"Business skills, domain skills, the"},{"startTime":548.021,"endTime":551.321,"body":"amount of categories and the amount"},{"startTime":551.321,"endTime":554.381,"body":"of things on your spreadsheet that"},{"startTime":551.321,"endTime":554.381,"body":"you would have to quote, manage"},{"startTime":554.381,"endTime":555.941,"body":"as a quote, resource manager."},{"startTime":556.091,"endTime":556.451,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":556.451,"endTime":561.221,"body":"So I should say that not with, with"},{"startTime":556.451,"endTime":561.221,"body":"less disdain, but I can like the Sorry,"},{"startTime":561.371,"endTime":562.481,"body":"is there a."},{"startTime":562.631,"endTime":565.921,"body":"Not a way to shortcut the"},{"startTime":562.631,"endTime":565.921,"body":"forming, storming, norming."},{"startTime":566.071,"endTime":568.841,"body":"Can I make shh First of all, is"},{"startTime":566.071,"endTime":568.841,"body":"there a way to, to analyze my"},{"startTime":568.841,"endTime":570.511,"body":"team and know what stage I'm in?"},{"startTime":570.661,"endTime":574.611,"body":"And also, is there a way to limit"},{"startTime":570.661,"endTime":574.611,"body":"the amount of time that it takes"},{"startTime":574.661,"endTime":576.071,"body":"to go back through those phases?"},{"startTime":576.071,"endTime":579.881,"body":"Maybe I can only move one"},{"startTime":576.071,"endTime":579.881,"body":"person every so often, or maybe"},{"startTime":579.881,"endTime":581.331,"body":"there's some checks I can do."},{"startTime":581.351,"endTime":583.121,"body":"You know, maybe it's"},{"startTime":581.351,"endTime":583.121,"body":"not a time limit thing."},{"startTime":583.121,"endTime":586.111,"body":"Maybe it's just like, I have to see"},{"startTime":583.121,"endTime":586.111,"body":"some things happening between the"},{"startTime":586.111,"endTime":589.711,"body":"team members is there I don't know, a"},{"startTime":586.111,"endTime":589.711,"body":"playbook or a checklist or something"},{"startTime":589.711,"endTime":593.181,"body":"that could help me, me as a manager,"},{"startTime":589.711,"endTime":593.181,"body":"me as an outsider to the team."},{"startTime":593.331,"endTime":594.591,"body":"Even it's like product sometimes."},{"startTime":594.591,"endTime":596.901,"body":"Sometimes a product manager"},{"startTime":594.591,"endTime":596.901,"body":"feels like an outsider."},{"startTime":596.931,"endTime":599.571,"body":"'cause like all the developers"},{"startTime":596.931,"endTime":599.571,"body":"are doing development tasks and I"},{"startTime":599.576,"endTime":600.801,"body":"kind of have to sit that one out."},{"startTime":600.801,"endTime":603.241,"body":"You know how can I know"},{"startTime":600.801,"endTime":603.241,"body":"that they're really jelling."},{"startTime":603.391,"endTime":603.691,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":603.691,"endTime":605.431,"body":"There's a lot on the periphery there."},{"startTime":605.431,"endTime":607.001,"body":"Deliver managers come to mind."},{"startTime":607.031,"endTime":607.211,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":607.211,"endTime":607.271,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":607.301,"endTime":608.291,"body":"Resource managers."},{"startTime":608.591,"endTime":612.191,"body":"PMO folks, whatever, but you have two"},{"startTime":608.591,"endTime":612.191,"body":"questions embedded in there, right?"},{"startTime":612.201,"endTime":616.821,"body":"First of all, how is there a way to"},{"startTime":612.201,"endTime":616.821,"body":"know what impact a person is making?"},{"startTime":616.831,"endTime":620.811,"body":"First so if you're not in the"},{"startTime":616.831,"endTime":620.811,"body":"team, you don't really know, right?"},{"startTime":620.871,"endTime":621.551,"body":"It's hard."},{"startTime":621.871,"endTime":624.361,"body":"So how, how do you if you're"},{"startTime":621.871,"endTime":624.361,"body":"on the periphery, how do you"},{"startTime":624.401,"endTime":626.481,"body":"know what somebody's worth is?"},{"startTime":626.511,"endTime":630.651,"body":"Not technically, but as a team"},{"startTime":626.511,"endTime":630.651,"body":"member, as a value player, right?"},{"startTime":630.801,"endTime":632.761,"body":"The only way to do that is."},{"startTime":632.911,"endTime":634.811,"body":"Don't take point measurements, right?"},{"startTime":635.061,"endTime":637.651,"body":"Ask people, but then observe, right?"},{"startTime":637.801,"endTime":641.471,"body":"Make sure you ask the right people,"},{"startTime":637.801,"endTime":641.471,"body":"not within the team necessarily."},{"startTime":641.471,"endTime":645.211,"body":"Also ask teams that are working"},{"startTime":641.471,"endTime":645.211,"body":"with those teams, ask the customers"},{"startTime":645.221,"endTime":648.561,"body":"that these teams are delivering to"},{"startTime":645.221,"endTime":648.561,"body":"and see, don't fish for it though."},{"startTime":648.571,"endTime":650.431,"body":"Just, just ask, how's the team doing?"},{"startTime":650.581,"endTime":651.521,"body":"Anybody stand out?"},{"startTime":651.611,"endTime":654.141,"body":"Anybody not pulling their"},{"startTime":651.611,"endTime":654.141,"body":"weight as much as they should."},{"startTime":654.291,"endTime":658.921,"body":"Open ended questions like that without"},{"startTime":654.291,"endTime":658.921,"body":"saying is Fred or Mary that don't do that."},{"startTime":659.071,"endTime":661.281,"body":"That's only one side of it, right?"},{"startTime":661.551,"endTime":665.041,"body":"And then the other side of it, which"},{"startTime":661.551,"endTime":665.041,"body":"I almost forgot, but you know, how"},{"startTime":665.071,"endTime":669.231,"body":"do you know if if you're at the"},{"startTime":665.071,"endTime":669.231,"body":"forming, norming, storming, et cetera?"},{"startTime":669.291,"endTime":670.251,"body":"How do you know that?"},{"startTime":670.341,"endTime":674.311,"body":"That's a great question because a lot"},{"startTime":670.341,"endTime":674.311,"body":"of people struggle with this, right?"},{"startTime":674.461,"endTime":679.221,"body":"So the only way you know that is by"},{"startTime":674.461,"endTime":679.221,"body":"be, again, you have to be in the team."},{"startTime":679.401,"endTime":680.851,"body":"So only team members know this."},{"startTime":680.881,"endTime":683.371,"body":"Outsiders can only see glimpses or."},{"startTime":683.521,"endTime":684.751,"body":"Time based things, right?"},{"startTime":684.901,"endTime":685.981,"body":"Discrete values."},{"startTime":686.281,"endTime":690.311,"body":"If you're in the team, you can see"},{"startTime":686.281,"endTime":690.311,"body":"who is regularly contributing, who is"},{"startTime":690.321,"endTime":694.901,"body":"bringing everybody back together to"},{"startTime":690.321,"endTime":694.901,"body":"work as a cohesive unit, as opposed"},{"startTime":694.941,"endTime":699.251,"body":"to working in a silo, you have some"},{"startTime":694.941,"endTime":699.251,"body":"people that just say very little"},{"startTime":699.271,"endTime":703.031,"body":"usually, but when they do say something,"},{"startTime":699.271,"endTime":703.031,"body":"it's because they want their way."},{"startTime":703.181,"endTime":705.531,"body":"And if they don't get their"},{"startTime":703.181,"endTime":705.531,"body":"way, they're going to take their"},{"startTime":705.531,"endTime":706.951,"body":"binky and go back to the corner."},{"startTime":707.031,"endTime":707.931,"body":"I wonder if there's."},{"startTime":708.101,"endTime":711.231,"body":"I wonder if there is a"},{"startTime":708.101,"endTime":711.231,"body":"doctoral dissertation in this."},{"startTime":711.281,"endTime":714.541,"body":"I think there is honestly, I think"},{"startTime":711.281,"endTime":714.541,"body":"there is a, what you just outlined"},{"startTime":714.541,"endTime":718.521,"body":"is we probably could sit down on"},{"startTime":714.541,"endTime":718.521,"body":"another podcast, not this one, and"},{"startTime":718.671,"endTime":720.731,"body":"just talk about Tuckman's model."},{"startTime":720.881,"endTime":724.121,"body":"Cause I think that Duckman research"},{"startTime":720.881,"endTime":724.121,"body":"is not, it's not really that I was"},{"startTime":724.121,"endTime":724.921,"body":"going to say, it's not that deep."},{"startTime":724.921,"endTime":725.381,"body":"That's not true."},{"startTime":725.581,"endTime":730.231,"body":"It's not so broad that we cannot"},{"startTime":725.581,"endTime":730.231,"body":"consume all of it in a podcast."},{"startTime":730.381,"endTime":734.001,"body":"You know, we can research it ahead of"},{"startTime":730.381,"endTime":734.001,"body":"time, pull out the relevant pieces and"},{"startTime":734.001,"endTime":737.471,"body":"talk about and dissect it in a podcast,"},{"startTime":734.001,"endTime":737.471,"body":"at least at a high level, right."},{"startTime":737.741,"endTime":739.081,"body":"Look through the research,"},{"startTime":737.741,"endTime":739.081,"body":"that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":739.231,"endTime":739.761,"body":"And then."},{"startTime":739.911,"endTime":745.621,"body":"Try to figure out if we were to give"},{"startTime":739.911,"endTime":745.621,"body":"us a team a survey of like 40 questions"},{"startTime":745.661,"endTime":750.611,"body":"for example, could we ascertain what"},{"startTime":745.661,"endTime":750.611,"body":"stage of the model that that team is in?"},{"startTime":750.761,"endTime":753.191,"body":"What a fantastic topic for a podcast."},{"startTime":753.341,"endTime":754.071,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":754.121,"endTime":754.881,"body":"First of all, right?"},{"startTime":755.141,"endTime":760.086,"body":"I also think that well, you're"},{"startTime":755.141,"endTime":760.086,"body":"right been around a long, long time."},{"startTime":760.376,"endTime":764.316,"body":"It's been around since the sixties,"},{"startTime":760.376,"endTime":764.316,"body":"largely untouched until very recently"},{"startTime":764.316,"endTime":765.836,"body":"when they added a stage on the end."},{"startTime":766.096,"endTime":767.896,"body":"Well, actually they"},{"startTime":766.096,"endTime":767.896,"body":"didn't even had a stage."},{"startTime":767.896,"endTime":769.076,"body":"They just renamed it."},{"startTime":769.166,"endTime":769.476,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":769.516,"endTime":769.826,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":769.976,"endTime":771.476,"body":"To mourning from a journey."},{"startTime":771.626,"endTime":776.706,"body":"I, yeah, but you know, how many people"},{"startTime":771.626,"endTime":776.706,"body":"have been on teams that really mourn?"},{"startTime":776.856,"endTime":779.596,"body":"If you haven't, you know"},{"startTime":776.856,"endTime":779.596,"body":"what your team wasn't as."},{"startTime":779.746,"endTime":784.086,"body":"Well, gelled as you thought it was,"},{"startTime":779.746,"endTime":784.086,"body":"it was a journey because they're"},{"startTime":784.086,"endTime":785.346,"body":"like, well, we're done with this work."},{"startTime":785.356,"endTime":786.716,"body":"We're gonna go work with some other team."},{"startTime":786.776,"endTime":787.586,"body":"It's just work."},{"startTime":787.696,"endTime":791.586,"body":"Yeah, right as opposed to I really"},{"startTime":787.696,"endTime":791.586,"body":"love working with this team I'm"},{"startTime":791.586,"endTime":793.646,"body":"gonna miss my teammates, right?"},{"startTime":793.816,"endTime":797.746,"body":"That's where the that's where the morning"},{"startTime":793.816,"endTime":797.746,"body":"comes in And then when you go to another"},{"startTime":797.776,"endTime":803.396,"body":"team and the moment somebody says gee It'd"},{"startTime":797.776,"endTime":803.396,"body":"be nice if we had X Y and you're the first"},{"startTime":803.406,"endTime":807.126,"body":"person to go I work with these people One"},{"startTime":803.406,"endTime":807.126,"body":"of these people would be great, right?"},{"startTime":807.276,"endTime":810.536,"body":"If you're, if you're talking things"},{"startTime":807.276,"endTime":810.536,"body":"like that, you might be mourning."},{"startTime":810.626,"endTime":812.776,"body":"Otherwise, you've adjourned"},{"startTime":810.626,"endTime":812.776,"body":"and you've moved on."},{"startTime":812.916,"endTime":813.906,"body":"So I agree with you."},{"startTime":813.936,"endTime":817.036,"body":"I think we should do a podcast on this"},{"startTime":813.936,"endTime":817.036,"body":"topic because this is very valuable."},{"startTime":817.186,"endTime":820.286,"body":"Tuckman didn't necessarily"},{"startTime":817.186,"endTime":820.286,"body":"do this for software teams."},{"startTime":820.476,"endTime":820.616,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":820.616,"endTime":822.816,"body":"But it applies very, very well."},{"startTime":822.836,"endTime":827.336,"body":"it's basically with anybody who is a"},{"startTime":822.836,"endTime":827.336,"body":"Quote unquote, a knowledge worker, right?"},{"startTime":827.486,"endTime":829.866,"body":"So yeah, let's, let's,"},{"startTime":827.486,"endTime":829.866,"body":"I've noted that down."},{"startTime":829.896,"endTime":830.766,"body":"We'll do a podcast."},{"startTime":830.776,"endTime":831.186,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":831.196,"endTime":835.896,"body":"to move us to the next category so"},{"startTime":831.196,"endTime":835.896,"body":"assuming that management actually has"},{"startTime":835.896,"endTime":837.556,"body":"a plan and they have a assumption."},{"startTime":837.636,"endTime":839.166,"body":"Yeah, they have, they have a spreadsheet."},{"startTime":839.316,"endTime":840.646,"body":"Again, we're talking"},{"startTime":839.316,"endTime":840.646,"body":"about management here."},{"startTime":840.676,"endTime":843.596,"body":"Well because again,  if you're a"},{"startTime":840.676,"endTime":843.596,"body":"company of 10 people, Like the,"},{"startTime":843.626,"endTime":846.996,"body":"the, the, the rebalancing of the"},{"startTime":843.626,"endTime":846.996,"body":"teams here, here's how it works."},{"startTime":847.216,"endTime":849.836,"body":"We take on so much work that we're"},{"startTime":847.216,"endTime":849.836,"body":"all busy and we're all doing stuff"},{"startTime":849.846,"endTime":853.116,"body":"outside of our normal job role because"},{"startTime":849.846,"endTime":853.116,"body":"we're all team players or whatever."},{"startTime":853.406,"endTime":855.226,"body":"And then like we just"},{"startTime":853.406,"endTime":855.226,"body":"can't take it anymore."},{"startTime":855.226,"endTime":858.146,"body":"And then we hire another person in to"},{"startTime":855.226,"endTime":858.146,"body":"take off those extra responsibilities"},{"startTime":858.156,"endTime":859.386,"body":"and that becomes their job role."},{"startTime":859.666,"endTime":862.806,"body":"And then we grow and divide and"},{"startTime":859.666,"endTime":862.806,"body":"grow and divide and grow and divide."},{"startTime":863.156,"endTime":865.966,"body":"Until now we have a bunch of extra"},{"startTime":863.156,"endTime":865.966,"body":"people on a bunch of extra teams"},{"startTime":866.166,"endTime":868.856,"body":"that are doing a bunch of extra"},{"startTime":866.166,"endTime":868.856,"body":"stuff that that's just natural."},{"startTime":868.886,"endTime":869.916,"body":"That's the startup, right?"},{"startTime":869.916,"endTime":870.706,"body":"That's startup life."},{"startTime":870.706,"endTime":871.356,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":871.436,"endTime":874.766,"body":"So when, when you have enough functions"},{"startTime":871.436,"endTime":874.766,"body":"where you need to split off all those"},{"startTime":874.766,"endTime":878.886,"body":"functions onto a new team, you, you"},{"startTime":874.766,"endTime":878.886,"body":"basically, you basically are just doing"},{"startTime":878.896,"endTime":881.176,"body":"across your organization or your program."},{"startTime":881.176,"endTime":883.296,"body":"If it's if you, if you're in a"},{"startTime":881.176,"endTime":883.296,"body":"big company, you have a program,"},{"startTime":883.336,"endTime":885.946,"body":"you're doing skill or knowledge."},{"startTime":886.096,"endTime":887.756,"body":"Oh, slash experience, right?"},{"startTime":887.826,"endTime":888.746,"body":"Rebalancing."},{"startTime":888.936,"endTime":890.656,"body":"You're saying, well, I got"},{"startTime":888.936,"endTime":890.656,"body":"this team of junior devs."},{"startTime":890.656,"endTime":892.766,"body":"They really should have a senior"},{"startTime":890.656,"endTime":892.766,"body":"engineer sitting over them."},{"startTime":893.116,"endTime":897.986,"body":"Or I got this team of I got this program"},{"startTime":893.116,"endTime":897.986,"body":"of four teams, five teams, four or five"},{"startTime":897.986,"endTime":902.276,"body":"teams, and they have no architect, they"},{"startTime":897.986,"endTime":902.276,"body":"have nobody with architect experience."},{"startTime":902.426,"endTime":905.676,"body":"On any of the teams, I need to take"},{"startTime":902.426,"endTime":905.676,"body":"an architect from another program"},{"startTime":905.676,"endTime":908.936,"body":"and I need to put it on that team"},{"startTime":905.676,"endTime":908.936,"body":"to, to basically balance I, I don't"},{"startTime":908.936,"endTime":913.256,"body":"know what your ratios are in Q again,"},{"startTime":908.936,"endTime":913.256,"body":"my early in my career, I was in QA."},{"startTime":913.406,"endTime":917.486,"body":"Anybody that works in QA knows at"},{"startTime":913.406,"endTime":917.486,"body":"a regular basis, the company will"},{"startTime":917.486,"endTime":918.906,"body":"look at the number of QA people."},{"startTime":919.056,"endTime":922.586,"body":"To the number of developers and say"},{"startTime":919.056,"endTime":922.586,"body":"do we have the right ratios and what"},{"startTime":922.586,"endTime":925.696,"body":"they're really saying is Why do we"},{"startTime":922.586,"endTime":925.696,"body":"want to pay for all these qa people"},{"startTime":925.846,"endTime":927.266,"body":"when we can buy more developers?"},{"startTime":927.266,"endTime":928.376,"body":"That's what they're really saying."},{"startTime":928.666,"endTime":932.736,"body":"It's not the right discussion but but"},{"startTime":928.666,"endTime":932.736,"body":"the point of this category is They might"},{"startTime":932.736,"endTime":937.006,"body":"be taking people on or off of your team"},{"startTime":932.736,"endTime":937.006,"body":"because they're generally rebalancing"},{"startTime":937.016,"endTime":942.526,"body":"skills Or knowledge about products or"},{"startTime":937.016,"endTime":942.526,"body":"services or whatever Or experience levels."},{"startTime":942.526,"endTime":944.706,"body":"They're trying to balance"},{"startTime":942.526,"endTime":944.706,"body":"them among all the teams."},{"startTime":944.856,"endTime":945.576,"body":"Well, absolutely."},{"startTime":945.576,"endTime":945.846,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":945.846,"endTime":946.466,"body":"And right."},{"startTime":946.476,"endTime":950.156,"body":"So I think there's, again, there's"},{"startTime":946.476,"endTime":950.156,"body":"a lot that that's under there,"},{"startTime":950.216,"endTime":951.596,"body":"that same topic skills rebalancing."},{"startTime":951.746,"endTime":955.026,"body":"When companies make decisions"},{"startTime":951.746,"endTime":955.026,"body":"to rebalance skills, they're"},{"startTime":955.026,"endTime":956.656,"body":"doing it because of an input."},{"startTime":956.716,"endTime":958.136,"body":"There's an impetus, right?"},{"startTime":958.146,"endTime":958.686,"body":"To do that."},{"startTime":959.026,"endTime":962.936,"body":"If everything's working well,"},{"startTime":959.026,"endTime":962.936,"body":"then let the status quo prevail."},{"startTime":963.146,"endTime":966.096,"body":"So something happens and then they"},{"startTime":963.146,"endTime":966.096,"body":"have to look at the team and go,"},{"startTime":966.146,"endTime":967.326,"body":"wow, we need to shuffle things."},{"startTime":967.476,"endTime":967.776,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":967.776,"endTime":968.136,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":968.136,"endTime":972.786,"body":"Because we've heard that our quality's"},{"startTime":968.136,"endTime":972.786,"body":"bad and maybe QA is not pulling their"},{"startTime":972.786,"endTime":977.936,"body":"way, or, or we're not developing things"},{"startTime":972.786,"endTime":977.936,"body":"and, and in, in a timely manner and"},{"startTime":977.936,"endTime":980.786,"body":"giving them to the QA people that are"},{"startTime":977.936,"endTime":980.786,"body":"just sitting there twiddling their thumbs."},{"startTime":980.816,"endTime":981.086,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":981.146,"endTime":985.166,"body":"Most of the sprint or whatever it"},{"startTime":981.146,"endTime":985.166,"body":"is, there's a lot of antipas there."},{"startTime":985.416,"endTime":989.966,"body":"But that notwithstanding, there"},{"startTime":985.416,"endTime":989.966,"body":"is some kind of a stimulus right."},{"startTime":989.966,"endTime":991.646,"body":"That causes people to make this change."},{"startTime":991.676,"endTime":991.826,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":992.096,"endTime":995.186,"body":"So the first thing to do is figure"},{"startTime":992.096,"endTime":995.186,"body":"out is that a valid stimulus?"},{"startTime":995.336,"endTime":999.426,"body":"Because it could be that there's a,"},{"startTime":995.336,"endTime":999.426,"body":"there's a plethora of reasons why"},{"startTime":999.526,"endTime":1004.196,"body":"people that are in this role who can"},{"startTime":999.526,"endTime":1004.196,"body":"actually shuffle teams here, these"},{"startTime":1004.196,"endTime":1006.016,"body":"things, it could be hearsay, right?"},{"startTime":1006.046,"endTime":1007.176,"body":"It could be assumptions."},{"startTime":1007.326,"endTime":1013.226,"body":"It could be one offs like this one"},{"startTime":1007.326,"endTime":1013.226,"body":"sprint QA missed a couple of things."},{"startTime":1013.376,"endTime":1013.776,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1013.836,"endTime":1013.956,"body":"But."},{"startTime":1014.106,"endTime":1017.076,"body":"You know, it's a point"},{"startTime":1014.106,"endTime":1017.076,"body":"in time kind of thing."},{"startTime":1017.226,"endTime":1018.876,"body":"There's a lot of different variables here."},{"startTime":1019.066,"endTime":1022.416,"body":"So figure out, are you"},{"startTime":1019.066,"endTime":1022.416,"body":"looking at a point in time?"},{"startTime":1022.436,"endTime":1024.946,"body":"Are you looking at discrete things"},{"startTime":1022.436,"endTime":1024.946,"body":"or are you looking at a trend?"},{"startTime":1025.046,"endTime":1028.456,"body":"You said exactly what I was"},{"startTime":1025.046,"endTime":1028.456,"body":"thinking is management is observing"},{"startTime":1028.566,"endTime":1033.376,"body":"management is observing a trend"},{"startTime":1028.566,"endTime":1033.376,"body":"that maybe one particular team does"},{"startTime":1033.376,"endTime":1035.216,"body":"not see, but they are seeing it."},{"startTime":1035.501,"endTime":1036.271,"body":"Across all teams."},{"startTime":1036.271,"endTime":1040.261,"body":"Now, now we return to what we said"},{"startTime":1036.271,"endTime":1040.261,"body":"in the first, I don't know, two,"},{"startTime":1040.311,"endTime":1041.361,"body":"two, three minutes of the podcast."},{"startTime":1041.511,"endTime":1043.951,"body":"Is it a trend they are seeing?"},{"startTime":1044.251,"endTime":1051.781,"body":"Logically have evidence quantitatively"},{"startTime":1044.251,"endTime":1051.781,"body":"observing or Is it qualitative just"},{"startTime":1051.781,"endTime":1055.821,"body":"what they're hearing, making an"},{"startTime":1051.781,"endTime":1055.821,"body":"emotional response to Oh, these teams"},{"startTime":1055.871,"endTime":1059.331,"body":"always promise that they're going to"},{"startTime":1055.871,"endTime":1059.331,"body":"deliver things in one sprint and they"},{"startTime":1059.331,"endTime":1061.721,"body":"always take six sprints or whatever."},{"startTime":1061.811,"endTime":1065.021,"body":"And they just feel like anytime"},{"startTime":1061.811,"endTime":1065.021,"body":"there's an important feature, the"},{"startTime":1065.031,"endTime":1066.811,"body":"teams are dropping the ball, right?"},{"startTime":1066.941,"endTime":1071.901,"body":"Like when you dig in, the problem"},{"startTime":1066.941,"endTime":1071.901,"body":"is that the knee jerk response to"},{"startTime":1071.901,"endTime":1074.001,"body":"that becomes reshuffling the teams."},{"startTime":1074.231,"endTime":1078.621,"body":"Oh, we need to get more senior people over"},{"startTime":1074.231,"endTime":1078.621,"body":"here because Then I can have more control"},{"startTime":1078.871,"endTime":1082.751,"body":"because my, Oh, the, the other thing that"},{"startTime":1078.871,"endTime":1082.751,"body":"I've seen happen is they take their star."},{"startTime":1082.901,"endTime":1087.551,"body":"Their star product person or their"},{"startTime":1082.901,"endTime":1087.551,"body":"star manager or their star architect."},{"startTime":1087.741,"endTime":1091.751,"body":"And they put them on the trouble teams"},{"startTime":1087.741,"endTime":1091.751,"body":"to quote, whip them into shape or, or,"},{"startTime":1091.771,"endTime":1096.611,"body":"or so they have, they have somebody who's"},{"startTime":1091.771,"endTime":1096.611,"body":"there, quote, eyes and ears on that team."},{"startTime":1096.671,"endTime":1098.271,"body":"I haven't said that in a"},{"startTime":1096.671,"endTime":1098.271,"body":"long time on the podcast."},{"startTime":1098.471,"endTime":1102.061,"body":"The point is that the leadership"},{"startTime":1098.471,"endTime":1102.061,"body":"is trying to put someone onto"},{"startTime":1102.061,"endTime":1103.531,"body":"the team that they trust."},{"startTime":1103.681,"endTime":1108.571,"body":"To figure out before they do"},{"startTime":1103.681,"endTime":1108.571,"body":"something more drastic more dramatic."},{"startTime":1108.831,"endTime":1112.331,"body":"And usually that again, only in my"},{"startTime":1108.831,"endTime":1112.331,"body":"experience, but in my experience, that"},{"startTime":1112.331,"endTime":1114.871,"body":"usually is, that's doesn't help at all."},{"startTime":1115.121,"endTime":1119.401,"body":"I think when, when you said the first"},{"startTime":1115.121,"endTime":1119.401,"body":"thing you said about hearsay and all"},{"startTime":1119.401,"endTime":1124.346,"body":"of that, It's not like, okay, when you"},{"startTime":1119.401,"endTime":1124.346,"body":"first hear about a team missing a target"},{"startTime":1124.386,"endTime":1126.716,"body":"or whatever that may look like, right?"},{"startTime":1126.866,"endTime":1131.316,"body":"Bad quality whatever it is, don't"},{"startTime":1126.866,"endTime":1131.316,"body":"make a knee jerk reaction to use your"},{"startTime":1131.316,"endTime":1135.856,"body":"phrase, but be data driven, figure"},{"startTime":1131.316,"endTime":1135.856,"body":"out what is really underlying that."},{"startTime":1136.006,"endTime":1136.306,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1136.456,"endTime":1140.556,"body":"Because they missed it doesn't mean"},{"startTime":1136.456,"endTime":1140.556,"body":"you should just kill that team or"},{"startTime":1140.606,"endTime":1144.566,"body":"people or person or the messenger or"},{"startTime":1140.606,"endTime":1144.566,"body":"the messenger or the messenger figure"},{"startTime":1144.566,"endTime":1148.176,"body":"out what did they have a dependency"},{"startTime":1144.566,"endTime":1148.176,"body":"and the dependent team not deliver."},{"startTime":1148.326,"endTime":1149.681,"body":"So why was that?"},{"startTime":1149.831,"endTime":1155.171,"body":"So that doesn't absolve the team in"},{"startTime":1149.831,"endTime":1155.171,"body":"question, but it also doesn't make them"},{"startTime":1155.391,"endTime":1157.231,"body":"appear directly in your crosshairs."},{"startTime":1157.491,"endTime":1158.721,"body":"You gotta figure this out."},{"startTime":1158.871,"endTime":1163.641,"body":"Maybe the customer, a customer,"},{"startTime":1158.871,"endTime":1163.641,"body":"had reason to call somebody out"},{"startTime":1163.791,"endTime":1165.151,"body":"and said, Well, this person."},{"startTime":1165.301,"endTime":1166.701,"body":"You know, didn't really help us."},{"startTime":1166.971,"endTime":1167.221,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1167.261,"endTime":1167.871,"body":"Why was that?"},{"startTime":1168.161,"endTime":1168.521,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1168.541,"endTime":1169.391,"body":"So dig deeper."},{"startTime":1169.531,"endTime":1173.411,"body":"Is it, don't go on the face"},{"startTime":1169.531,"endTime":1173.411,"body":"value of whatever you hear first."},{"startTime":1173.671,"endTime":1179.061,"body":"Well, in addition to, to giving the"},{"startTime":1173.671,"endTime":1179.061,"body":"team more skills or giving the team"},{"startTime":1179.061,"endTime":1181.911,"body":"that appropriate level of experience"},{"startTime":1179.061,"endTime":1181.911,"body":"that maybe they're, they may, maybe"},{"startTime":1181.911,"endTime":1185.581,"body":"you believe that they're lacking the"},{"startTime":1181.911,"endTime":1185.581,"body":"other reason that management might"},{"startTime":1185.581,"endTime":1190.131,"body":"make changes is because they, they,"},{"startTime":1185.581,"endTime":1190.131,"body":"maybe they're trying to empower teams"},{"startTime":1190.161,"endTime":1192.091,"body":"by making them more cross functional."},{"startTime":1192.241,"endTime":1197.021,"body":"So the, which kind of goes it kind of"},{"startTime":1192.241,"endTime":1197.021,"body":"goes under this category as more skills,"},{"startTime":1197.021,"endTime":1198.221,"body":"more knowledge, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1198.221,"endTime":1201.121,"body":"Like they, they want the team to have"},{"startTime":1198.221,"endTime":1201.121,"body":"all the skills and all the knowledge"},{"startTime":1201.271,"endTime":1205.411,"body":"that they need to perform the tasks that"},{"startTime":1201.271,"endTime":1205.411,"body":"they're being given to actually deliver"},{"startTime":1205.631,"endTime":1207.431,"body":"what they're being asked to deliver."},{"startTime":1207.771,"endTime":1210.591,"body":"I've also seen this, exactly"},{"startTime":1207.771,"endTime":1210.591,"body":"what I just explained."},{"startTime":1210.811,"endTime":1212.501,"body":"I've seen this work in the reverse."},{"startTime":1212.651,"endTime":1215.601,"body":"Where you know, managers are"},{"startTime":1212.651,"endTime":1215.601,"body":"incented of it on how many"},{"startTime":1215.611,"endTime":1217.321,"body":"employees that they have under them."},{"startTime":1217.321,"endTime":1220.921,"body":"And architects are incented"},{"startTime":1217.321,"endTime":1220.921,"body":"on how many teams that they"},{"startTime":1220.921,"endTime":1222.101,"body":"have and that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1222.101,"endTime":1227.061,"body":"And I, I've seen cross functionality"},{"startTime":1222.101,"endTime":1227.061,"body":"destroyed by the same impulse."},{"startTime":1227.211,"endTime":1230.471,"body":"As, as what the drive to"},{"startTime":1227.211,"endTime":1230.471,"body":"make teams cross functional."},{"startTime":1230.471,"endTime":1233.081,"body":"I've seen the exact opposite"},{"startTime":1230.471,"endTime":1233.081,"body":"of that in play as well."},{"startTime":1233.231,"endTime":1233.591,"body":"Ditto."},{"startTime":1233.621,"endTime":1234.281,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1234.281,"endTime":1235.301,"body":"That's, that's a good call out."},{"startTime":1235.351,"endTime":1239.441,"body":"I think if you are in a company"},{"startTime":1235.351,"endTime":1239.441,"body":"where you've been for a while, you"},{"startTime":1239.441,"endTime":1240.721,"body":"should get a feel for that, right?"},{"startTime":1240.811,"endTime":1242.371,"body":"I'm not talking about"},{"startTime":1240.811,"endTime":1242.371,"body":"evaluations or anything."},{"startTime":1242.521,"endTime":1244.731,"body":"How are people perceived, right?"},{"startTime":1244.881,"endTime":1246.321,"body":"Teams, as a whole."},{"startTime":1246.521,"endTime":1250.591,"body":"So when a customer has something"},{"startTime":1246.521,"endTime":1250.591,"body":"bad to say look at the message."},{"startTime":1250.841,"endTime":1252.491,"body":"Are they blaming a team?"},{"startTime":1252.531,"endTime":1254.601,"body":"Are they saying this product is bad?"},{"startTime":1254.611,"endTime":1256.241,"body":"Are they saying the experience is bad?"},{"startTime":1256.271,"endTime":1257.441,"body":"Or a mix of the above."},{"startTime":1257.591,"endTime":1263.261,"body":"So if you're new into a team, or fairly"},{"startTime":1257.591,"endTime":1263.261,"body":"recent, and you don't have Let's say you"},{"startTime":1263.261,"endTime":1264.631,"body":"don't have the luxury to figure all out."},{"startTime":1264.781,"endTime":1267.431,"body":"The best thing you can do is"},{"startTime":1264.781,"endTime":1267.431,"body":"talk to your support people."},{"startTime":1267.651,"endTime":1270.781,"body":"People that are taking calls"},{"startTime":1267.651,"endTime":1270.781,"body":"from paying customers that are"},{"startTime":1270.781,"endTime":1272.071,"body":"experiencing the pains, right?"},{"startTime":1272.141,"endTime":1276.791,"body":"And figure out, are they, are they"},{"startTime":1272.141,"endTime":1276.791,"body":"calling out individuals or teams or the"},{"startTime":1276.791,"endTime":1279.301,"body":"product or the quality whatever it is."},{"startTime":1279.501,"endTime":1284.871,"body":"But again, don't just make snap"},{"startTime":1279.501,"endTime":1284.871,"body":"decisions on that as face value."},{"startTime":1285.021,"endTime":1288.251,"body":"Note that down, and then talk"},{"startTime":1285.021,"endTime":1288.251,"body":"Deeper you could do a lot worse than"},{"startTime":1288.251,"endTime":1291.311,"body":"do the five wise, but that's not"},{"startTime":1288.251,"endTime":1291.311,"body":"the only thing you can do, right?"},{"startTime":1291.371,"endTime":1292.901,"body":"It's a lot of different techniques."},{"startTime":1293.051,"endTime":1297.251,"body":"Maybe what really happened is"},{"startTime":1293.051,"endTime":1297.251,"body":"nobody really understood the"},{"startTime":1297.251,"endTime":1301.621,"body":"requirement well enough But"},{"startTime":1297.251,"endTime":1301.621,"body":"they had an idea of that, right?"},{"startTime":1301.621,"endTime":1305.271,"body":"So the we think the customer wants"},{"startTime":1301.621,"endTime":1305.271,"body":"this therefore it must be we deliver"},{"startTime":1305.271,"endTime":1307.151,"body":"to that and the customer says Yeah."},{"startTime":1307.151,"endTime":1307.781,"body":"Not quite right."},{"startTime":1307.991,"endTime":1308.291,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1308.351,"endTime":1308.651,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1308.751,"endTime":1310.041,"body":"So whose fault is it?"},{"startTime":1310.091,"endTime":1311.531,"body":"It's not the development teams."},{"startTime":1311.531,"endTime":1312.761,"body":"It's not the support team."},{"startTime":1312.761,"endTime":1314.161,"body":"It's not the deployment team."},{"startTime":1314.311,"endTime":1319.791,"body":"It may actually not even be the team"},{"startTime":1314.311,"endTime":1319.791,"body":"that formulates these requirements."},{"startTime":1319.801,"endTime":1323.401,"body":"It may not be a product team it"},{"startTime":1319.801,"endTime":1323.401,"body":"may be that something false was"},{"startTime":1323.411,"endTime":1325.591,"body":"promised right by your sales team."},{"startTime":1325.671,"endTime":1326.111,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1326.231,"endTime":1329.411,"body":"I'm just saying, well, the figure that out"},{"startTime":1326.231,"endTime":1329.411,"body":"the other problem that you're outlining"},{"startTime":1329.411,"endTime":1333.571,"body":"here is working in a feature factory I"},{"startTime":1329.411,"endTime":1333.571,"body":"will admit that it might just be the way"},{"startTime":1333.571,"endTime":1338.891,"body":"that I listened for your example but in"},{"startTime":1333.571,"endTime":1338.891,"body":"your, in your example, I was asking the"},{"startTime":1338.891,"endTime":1340.511,"body":"whole time, where are the product people?"},{"startTime":1340.681,"endTime":1342.251,"body":"How come they're not absorbing this?"},{"startTime":1342.471,"endTime":1343.901,"body":"Like the customers are complaining."},{"startTime":1344.051,"endTime":1346.911,"body":"And what I've seen in feature"},{"startTime":1344.051,"endTime":1346.911,"body":"factories is the customers are"},{"startTime":1346.911,"endTime":1348.871,"body":"complaining the development teams."},{"startTime":1349.216,"endTime":1351.956,"body":"And the product owners on those"},{"startTime":1349.216,"endTime":1351.956,"body":"development teams, they don't talk to"},{"startTime":1351.966,"endTime":1354.746,"body":"customers, so they would never know"},{"startTime":1351.966,"endTime":1354.746,"body":"if the customers are complaining."},{"startTime":1355.046,"endTime":1359.926,"body":"So the, the, the deafening like tone"},{"startTime":1355.046,"endTime":1359.926,"body":"at which the customers are complaining,"},{"startTime":1359.936,"endTime":1364.256,"body":"goes straight to leadership management,"},{"startTime":1359.936,"endTime":1364.256,"body":"whatever people with budgets, it doesn't"},{"startTime":1364.266,"endTime":1366.196,"body":"go to the developers of development team."},{"startTime":1366.346,"endTime":1367.406,"body":"And now."},{"startTime":1367.556,"endTime":1370.736,"body":"The development team is surprised"},{"startTime":1367.556,"endTime":1370.736,"body":"that leadership is shuffling the"},{"startTime":1370.736,"endTime":1374.896,"body":"teams and making changes based on what"},{"startTime":1370.736,"endTime":1374.896,"body":"the customers are complaining about."},{"startTime":1375.056,"endTime":1376.156,"body":"Well, yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1376.236,"endTime":1380.176,"body":"I look in some organizations, what"},{"startTime":1376.236,"endTime":1380.176,"body":"happens is sales is the front line, right?"},{"startTime":1380.176,"endTime":1383.516,"body":"So they, they are the first level of"},{"startTime":1380.176,"endTime":1383.516,"body":"interaction with the customers and"},{"startTime":1383.516,"endTime":1387.176,"body":"they come back and they interpret"},{"startTime":1383.516,"endTime":1387.176,"body":"what they think they heard."},{"startTime":1387.326,"endTime":1388.346,"body":"It might not be what they heard."},{"startTime":1388.486,"endTime":1390.516,"body":"And then they say these are"},{"startTime":1388.486,"endTime":1390.516,"body":"the things that are needed."},{"startTime":1390.586,"endTime":1393.956,"body":"And the product people are basically"},{"startTime":1390.586,"endTime":1393.956,"body":"taking that as input, right?"},{"startTime":1394.106,"endTime":1397.446,"body":"And they're going now to town and"},{"startTime":1394.106,"endTime":1397.446,"body":"saying, well, this is what we need."},{"startTime":1397.476,"endTime":1399.516,"body":"Because us sales people"},{"startTime":1397.476,"endTime":1399.516,"body":"have done the work, right?"},{"startTime":1399.666,"endTime":1401.056,"body":"Somebody needs to validate that."},{"startTime":1401.136,"endTime":1406.756,"body":"So, in an ideal world, at that level, what"},{"startTime":1401.136,"endTime":1406.756,"body":"should happen, in my opinion at least,"},{"startTime":1406.756,"endTime":1410.006,"body":"for what it's worth, is listen to the"},{"startTime":1406.756,"endTime":1410.006,"body":"product people, the sales people rather,"},{"startTime":1410.006,"endTime":1411.336,"body":"and the product people will just say."},{"startTime":1411.486,"endTime":1415.336,"body":"You say they want this, let me go validate"},{"startTime":1411.486,"endTime":1415.336,"body":"that where's the evidence for that?"},{"startTime":1415.486,"endTime":1419.166,"body":"Go get that, and then you have"},{"startTime":1415.486,"endTime":1419.166,"body":"a better chance of narrowing"},{"startTime":1419.166,"endTime":1420.306,"body":"that cone of uncertainty."},{"startTime":1420.456,"endTime":1423.876,"body":"Otherwise, you're just basically"},{"startTime":1420.456,"endTime":1423.876,"body":"throwing dice on the the craps."},{"startTime":1423.976,"endTime":1426.976,"body":"Well, Let's forget about product"},{"startTime":1423.976,"endTime":1426.976,"body":"people for a second, for a second."},{"startTime":1427.126,"endTime":1427.726,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":1427.856,"endTime":1428.146,"body":"Good."},{"startTime":1428.256,"endTime":1428.596,"body":"Goodbye."},{"startTime":1428.596,"endTime":1431.886,"body":"Product people like and  let's talk"},{"startTime":1428.596,"endTime":1431.886,"body":"about the, what management thinks that"},{"startTime":1431.886,"endTime":1433.896,"body":"they're getting out of this reshuffling."},{"startTime":1434.006,"endTime":1435.546,"body":"And I think the main thing."},{"startTime":1435.696,"endTime":1438.296,"body":"That they think they're getting when"},{"startTime":1435.696,"endTime":1438.296,"body":"they add the main reason for them"},{"startTime":1438.296,"endTime":1442.966,"body":"to use this, this, this sledgehammer"},{"startTime":1438.296,"endTime":1442.966,"body":"of a, of a solution is because"},{"startTime":1442.966,"endTime":1446.406,"body":"they think that they're introducing"},{"startTime":1442.966,"endTime":1446.406,"body":"fresh perspectives to the team."},{"startTime":1446.556,"endTime":1448.886,"body":"They're, they're I mean, that's the"},{"startTime":1446.556,"endTime":1448.886,"body":"same reason why they would get their"},{"startTime":1448.886,"endTime":1451.966,"body":"star architect or star developer."},{"startTime":1452.276,"endTime":1453.936,"body":"Or star crony."},{"startTime":1454.006,"endTime":1456.706,"body":"I don't, I like, I don't, sometimes"},{"startTime":1454.006,"endTime":1456.706,"body":"they add people that have, they had"},{"startTime":1456.706,"endTime":1459.146,"body":"no idea about how to, yeah, right."},{"startTime":1459.296,"endTime":1461.656,"body":"Sometimes they're just getting their"},{"startTime":1459.296,"endTime":1461.656,"body":"friend because they trust that they"},{"startTime":1461.656,"endTime":1464.886,"body":"can talk to that person and that"},{"startTime":1461.656,"endTime":1464.886,"body":"they won't lie to them or whatever."},{"startTime":1464.886,"endTime":1466.446,"body":"Sometimes they just go get their buddy."},{"startTime":1466.596,"endTime":1470.196,"body":"You know, I mean, if you've ever"},{"startTime":1466.596,"endTime":1470.196,"body":"worked with a I was gonna say CPO, I"},{"startTime":1470.196,"endTime":1471.416,"body":"was gonna say chief product officer."},{"startTime":1471.516,"endTime":1472.406,"body":"Sorry, that's not fair."},{"startTime":1472.636,"endTime":1476.216,"body":"I was gonna if you ever work with like an"},{"startTime":1472.636,"endTime":1476.216,"body":"executive that obviously has no clue how"},{"startTime":1476.246,"endTime":1480.596,"body":"development is done, but they got hired in"},{"startTime":1476.246,"endTime":1480.596,"body":"and now they're your boss and you're like,"},{"startTime":1480.596,"endTime":1484.156,"body":"well, how did this, I don't understand how"},{"startTime":1480.596,"endTime":1484.156,"body":"this person, well, it's because management"},{"startTime":1484.156,"endTime":1485.656,"body":"trusts them and they don't trust you."},{"startTime":1485.806,"endTime":1488.306,"body":"That's which is, Very hard"},{"startTime":1485.806,"endTime":1488.306,"body":"to hear for a lot of people."},{"startTime":1488.316,"endTime":1492.786,"body":"Like I, I expect I expect the downvotes"},{"startTime":1488.316,"endTime":1492.786,"body":"to roll in by the ones, by the ones."},{"startTime":1492.936,"endTime":1493.926,"body":"I think you're right."},{"startTime":1493.966,"endTime":1497.216,"body":"People have people that they"},{"startTime":1493.966,"endTime":1497.216,"body":"bring in because they trust them."},{"startTime":1497.266,"endTime":1497.596,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1497.746,"endTime":1500.266,"body":"But by doing that, they're"},{"startTime":1497.746,"endTime":1500.266,"body":"also saying something."},{"startTime":1500.416,"endTime":1502.216,"body":"They're saying we don't"},{"startTime":1500.416,"endTime":1502.216,"body":"trust anybody else."},{"startTime":1502.226,"endTime":1503.006,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1503.006,"endTime":1505.386,"body":"They're saying that So"},{"startTime":1503.006,"endTime":1505.386,"body":"so that that is true."},{"startTime":1505.676,"endTime":1508.266,"body":"However You started out by"},{"startTime":1505.676,"endTime":1508.266,"body":"asking what are they really"},{"startTime":1508.266,"endTime":1509.776,"body":"getting by reshuffling the teams?"},{"startTime":1510.116,"endTime":1515.096,"body":"Oh, they're getting is a sense of Hope"},{"startTime":1510.116,"endTime":1515.096,"body":"that change will be good for that."},{"startTime":1515.346,"endTime":1519.076,"body":"That's It's so funny that every so"},{"startTime":1515.346,"endTime":1519.076,"body":"everything we've gone back to in this"},{"startTime":1519.076,"endTime":1523.726,"body":"podcast That seems to be a negative"},{"startTime":1519.076,"endTime":1523.726,"body":"scenario has been an emotional like"},{"startTime":1523.746,"endTime":1525.296,"body":"they what what do they get out of it?"},{"startTime":1525.306,"endTime":1531.096,"body":"They get the feeling like they have done"},{"startTime":1525.306,"endTime":1531.096,"body":"something when in actuality like you like"},{"startTime":1531.416,"endTime":1535.546,"body":"they haven't done anything yet They've"},{"startTime":1531.416,"endTime":1535.546,"body":"done something that maybe is actually"},{"startTime":1535.556,"endTime":1538.936,"body":"harming the situation, but they don't,"},{"startTime":1535.556,"endTime":1538.936,"body":"regardless of whether it's beneficial or"},{"startTime":1538.936,"endTime":1544.056,"body":"not they feel like shuffling team members"},{"startTime":1538.936,"endTime":1544.056,"body":"is going to give a fresh perspective"},{"startTime":1544.056,"endTime":1549.486,"body":"to the team and hopefully make the team"},{"startTime":1544.056,"endTime":1549.486,"body":"better see things their way because again,"},{"startTime":1549.486,"endTime":1554.016,"body":"they're not good at they're not good"},{"startTime":1549.486,"endTime":1554.016,"body":"at  organizational design, communication"},{"startTime":1554.016,"endTime":1558.666,"body":"methods in such a way where their goals"},{"startTime":1554.016,"endTime":1558.666,"body":"are clearly expressed to the teams."},{"startTime":1558.976,"endTime":1563.146,"body":"Honestly, it's like the, where"},{"startTime":1558.976,"endTime":1563.146,"body":"I've pivoted now on the podcast,"},{"startTime":1563.496,"endTime":1567.126,"body":"I'm specifically talking about"},{"startTime":1563.496,"endTime":1567.126,"body":"a feeling of leadership that is"},{"startTime":1567.126,"endTime":1569.496,"body":"being inflicted on the teams."},{"startTime":1569.646,"endTime":1573.106,"body":"They don't know exactly"},{"startTime":1569.646,"endTime":1573.106,"body":"how to say what they need."},{"startTime":1573.256,"endTime":1576.416,"body":"So they're shuffling the team"},{"startTime":1573.256,"endTime":1576.416,"body":"members to try to make up for"},{"startTime":1576.436,"endTime":1578.196,"body":"their lack of communication skill."},{"startTime":1578.346,"endTime":1580.966,"body":"Yeah, yeah, look, yes and, right?"},{"startTime":1580.966,"endTime":1583.466,"body":"So one thing that happens"},{"startTime":1580.966,"endTime":1583.466,"body":"as a result of this is this"},{"startTime":1583.616,"endTime":1586.286,"body":"covert, overt, overt pressure."},{"startTime":1586.416,"endTime":1587.226,"body":"Sometimes covert."},{"startTime":1587.376,"endTime":1588.006,"body":"Too much pressure."},{"startTime":1588.126,"endTime":1588.766,"body":"Too much pressure."},{"startTime":1588.916,"endTime":1591.476,"body":"So sometimes what happens"},{"startTime":1588.916,"endTime":1591.476,"body":"is no, not sometimes, often."},{"startTime":1591.486,"endTime":1593.316,"body":"What happens is when there's Change?"},{"startTime":1593.576,"endTime":1596.396,"body":"Team members are alert"},{"startTime":1593.576,"endTime":1596.396,"body":"okay, there's change."},{"startTime":1596.636,"endTime":1596.926,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1596.956,"endTime":1597.986,"body":"Fred got rolled out."},{"startTime":1597.996,"endTime":1598.966,"body":"Mary got rolled out."},{"startTime":1599.006,"endTime":1599.446,"body":"Whatever."},{"startTime":1599.676,"endTime":1602.266,"body":"And now we have John and, and, and Jane."},{"startTime":1602.416,"endTime":1607.496,"body":"So, That is, I think, a deliberate"},{"startTime":1602.416,"endTime":1607.496,"body":"ploy, whether intentional or not,"},{"startTime":1607.536,"endTime":1611.016,"body":"mostly intentional, but on our"},{"startTime":1607.536,"endTime":1611.016,"body":"management's part by saying, well,"},{"startTime":1611.016,"endTime":1614.436,"body":"we're going to shuffle things up,"},{"startTime":1611.016,"endTime":1614.436,"body":"we're going to stir things up, right?"},{"startTime":1614.436,"endTime":1615.866,"body":"We don't want the status quo."},{"startTime":1616.146,"endTime":1619.406,"body":"And that puts everybody on their"},{"startTime":1616.146,"endTime":1619.406,"body":"toes to say, Hey, look, we better"},{"startTime":1619.406,"endTime":1620.766,"body":"watch out because we could be next."},{"startTime":1620.766,"endTime":1621.956,"body":"It puts you on notice."},{"startTime":1622.006,"endTime":1622.976,"body":"It puts you on notice."},{"startTime":1623.006,"endTime":1627.066,"body":"And it is a, it is a"},{"startTime":1623.006,"endTime":1627.066,"body":"terrible way to proceed."},{"startTime":1627.096,"endTime":1629.326,"body":"If you're looking for the team to gel."},{"startTime":1629.656,"endTime":1633.986,"body":"And go on that model to the next level"},{"startTime":1629.656,"endTime":1633.986,"body":"on the graph or whatever it is It's"},{"startTime":1633.986,"endTime":1637.766,"body":"a terrible way, but people that are"},{"startTime":1633.986,"endTime":1637.766,"body":"making these decisions a have never"},{"startTime":1637.766,"endTime":1643.076,"body":"heard of tuckman and b They want to"},{"startTime":1637.766,"endTime":1643.076,"body":"basically Reassure their superiors"},{"startTime":1643.086,"endTime":1644.966,"body":"that they're doing something right."},{"startTime":1644.996,"endTime":1645.456,"body":"That's all it is."},{"startTime":1645.606,"endTime":1650.546,"body":"I sound like I'm being overly critical"},{"startTime":1645.606,"endTime":1650.546,"body":"on, on these executives or these"},{"startTime":1650.546,"endTime":1652.046,"body":"directors or whatever their position is."},{"startTime":1652.196,"endTime":1656.116,"body":"I am but also I mean, they"},{"startTime":1652.196,"endTime":1656.116,"body":"should read a book or something."},{"startTime":1656.316,"endTime":1658.816,"body":"No, I, like so I have"},{"startTime":1656.316,"endTime":1658.816,"body":"I have a couple steps."},{"startTime":1659.006,"endTime":1663.726,"body":"I have some suggestions who knew"},{"startTime":1659.006,"endTime":1663.726,"body":"that Brian would have suggestions and"},{"startTime":1663.876,"endTime":1668.756,"body":"identifying the root causes of some of"},{"startTime":1663.876,"endTime":1668.756,"body":"the problems and actually just identify"},{"startTime":1668.756,"endTime":1671.606,"body":"it, not trying to solve them, just"},{"startTime":1668.756,"endTime":1671.606,"body":"trying to identify the root cause of"},{"startTime":1671.606,"endTime":1673.346,"body":"before you go into the shuffling mode."},{"startTime":1673.496,"endTime":1673.786,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1673.956,"endTime":1675.426,"body":"And I have a few bullet"},{"startTime":1673.956,"endTime":1675.426,"body":"points written down."},{"startTime":1675.626,"endTime":1678.056,"body":"I'm just going to read them out"},{"startTime":1675.626,"endTime":1678.056,"body":"in order and see if, I'll stop"},{"startTime":1678.066,"endTime":1679.726,"body":"afterwards to get your take."},{"startTime":1679.876,"endTime":1683.666,"body":"So, so if you really want to get a"},{"startTime":1679.876,"endTime":1683.666,"body":"fresh perspective and you're seriously"},{"startTime":1683.666,"endTime":1687.406,"body":"considering it and you're seriously"},{"startTime":1683.666,"endTime":1687.406,"body":"considering shuffling team members in"},{"startTime":1687.406,"endTime":1689.156,"body":"order to get that fresh perspective,"},{"startTime":1689.306,"endTime":1693.686,"body":"for the teams involved, I want you to"},{"startTime":1689.306,"endTime":1693.686,"body":"analyze their processes, analyze their"},{"startTime":1693.886,"endTime":1698.486,"body":"current communication channels, analyze"},{"startTime":1693.886,"endTime":1698.486,"body":"the leadership styles involved, analyze"},{"startTime":1698.496,"endTime":1704.616,"body":"the The workload distribution and analyze"},{"startTime":1698.496,"endTime":1704.616,"body":"the interpersonal team dynamics in play."},{"startTime":1704.766,"endTime":1708.046,"body":"So that could be in between the teams"},{"startTime":1704.766,"endTime":1708.046,"body":"as they interact with each other."},{"startTime":1708.076,"endTime":1710.866,"body":"And also that could be in"},{"startTime":1708.076,"endTime":1710.866,"body":"between leadership and the"},{"startTime":1710.866,"endTime":1712.756,"body":"teams, both to any of those."},{"startTime":1712.786,"endTime":1713.616,"body":"I could say both."},{"startTime":1713.766,"endTime":1716.806,"body":"And third, how the teams"},{"startTime":1713.766,"endTime":1716.806,"body":"interact with other teams."},{"startTime":1716.966,"endTime":1718.656,"body":"Other teams outside of"},{"startTime":1716.966,"endTime":1718.656,"body":"their program or whatever."},{"startTime":1718.656,"endTime":1718.936,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1719.086,"endTime":1720.886,"body":"Well adjacent Intra team, okay."},{"startTime":1721.166,"endTime":1721.576,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1721.636,"endTime":1723.206,"body":"Or inter, inter team?"},{"startTime":1723.236,"endTime":1723.456,"body":"Intra."},{"startTime":1723.536,"endTime":1724.126,"body":"Intra, okay."},{"startTime":1724.276,"endTime":1724.646,"body":"Inter?"},{"startTime":1724.896,"endTime":1726.586,"body":"No, intra, intra, across teams."},{"startTime":1726.736,"endTime":1729.626,"body":"Well, I'm confused thanks"},{"startTime":1726.736,"endTime":1729.626,"body":"for listening to the podcast."},{"startTime":1729.626,"endTime":1731.926,"body":"If you're also confused,"},{"startTime":1729.626,"endTime":1731.926,"body":"like and subscribe."},{"startTime":1732.256,"endTime":1734.266,"body":"We're all in the same boat"},{"startTime":1732.256,"endTime":1734.266,"body":"and it's sinking fast."},{"startTime":1734.606,"endTime":1736.486,"body":"Oh, yeah, but the hole's on your side."},{"startTime":1736.486,"endTime":1737.689,"body":"I'm going in circles."},{"startTime":1737.689,"endTime":1740.998,"body":"So uh, like analyze the processes,"},{"startTime":1737.689,"endTime":1740.998,"body":"processes between leadership and the"},{"startTime":1740.998,"endTime":1744.788,"body":"teams and between the teams and the"},{"startTime":1740.998,"endTime":1744.788,"body":"teams and in between an individual team."},{"startTime":1744.828,"endTime":1745.118,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1745.358,"endTime":1745.688,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1745.838,"endTime":1749.098,"body":"Analyze the calm channels, both"},{"startTime":1745.838,"endTime":1749.098,"body":"inside of a team, between teams and"},{"startTime":1749.098,"endTime":1750.498,"body":"between leadership and the teams."},{"startTime":1750.648,"endTime":1754.358,"body":"Analyze the leadership styles,"},{"startTime":1750.648,"endTime":1754.358,"body":"both in and of team members."},{"startTime":1754.508,"endTime":1757.848,"body":"In between all the teams in the"},{"startTime":1754.508,"endTime":1757.848,"body":"program and leadership to the"},{"startTime":1757.848,"endTime":1759.168,"body":"teams, leadership styles, right?"},{"startTime":1759.488,"endTime":1761.728,"body":"Cause that one right there, like"},{"startTime":1759.488,"endTime":1761.728,"body":"that can sink you right there."},{"startTime":1761.728,"endTime":1765.728,"body":"The leadership style of your"},{"startTime":1761.728,"endTime":1765.728,"body":"leaders who direct teams is strictly"},{"startTime":1765.728,"endTime":1767.938,"body":"directive PMO project management."},{"startTime":1767.948,"endTime":1770.648,"body":"You're starting off failing"},{"startTime":1767.948,"endTime":1770.648,"body":"let's just say, you're starting"},{"startTime":1770.648,"endTime":1771.878,"body":"over the hole in your canoe."},{"startTime":1771.898,"endTime":1772.308,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1772.458,"endTime":1772.938,"body":"No paddles."},{"startTime":1773.008,"endTime":1774.318,"body":"Workload distribution."},{"startTime":1774.468,"endTime":1775.578,"body":"Do you have OKRs?"},{"startTime":1775.758,"endTime":1777.258,"body":"Do the teams get to"},{"startTime":1775.758,"endTime":1777.258,"body":"choose how they're set?"},{"startTime":1777.458,"endTime":1778.818,"body":"Do the teams get fed work?"},{"startTime":1778.878,"endTime":1781.018,"body":"Do the team members on each"},{"startTime":1778.878,"endTime":1781.018,"body":"team get assigned work?"},{"startTime":1781.018,"endTime":1782.068,"body":"Do teams get assigned things?"},{"startTime":1782.368,"endTime":1784.218,"body":"Interpersonal team dynamics."},{"startTime":1784.478,"endTime":1786.198,"body":"You know, how do teams"},{"startTime":1784.478,"endTime":1786.198,"body":"interact with one another?"},{"startTime":1786.198,"endTime":1788.558,"body":"What are your Do the teams even"},{"startTime":1786.198,"endTime":1788.558,"body":"have visibility to the customer?"},{"startTime":1788.778,"endTime":1789.218,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1789.298,"endTime":1793.548,"body":"The, the whole , team topologies"},{"startTime":1789.298,"endTime":1793.548,"body":"podcast that we did is at play here."},{"startTime":1793.548,"endTime":1793.708,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1793.883,"endTime":1798.123,"body":"The whole do you talk to customers is"},{"startTime":1793.883,"endTime":1798.123,"body":"that available to you and who on your"},{"startTime":1798.123,"endTime":1801.833,"body":"team talks to customers and how often,"},{"startTime":1798.123,"endTime":1801.833,"body":"and you know, who's at your sprint reviews"},{"startTime":1801.883,"endTime":1802.843,"body":"you know, that, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1802.993,"endTime":1807.863,"body":"So I think between those five bullet"},{"startTime":1802.993,"endTime":1807.863,"body":"points right there, those five indicators"},{"startTime":1807.863,"endTime":1810.483,"body":"right there, you can make a lot of"},{"startTime":1807.863,"endTime":1810.483,"body":"ground if you're a leadership and you,"},{"startTime":1810.823,"endTime":1814.463,"body":"and you really, really want to know"},{"startTime":1814.613,"endTime":1816.443,"body":"now, if you're a leadership"},{"startTime":1814.613,"endTime":1816.443,"body":"and you're just trying to."},{"startTime":1816.593,"endTime":1819.613,"body":"Look like you're doing something and you"},{"startTime":1816.593,"endTime":1819.613,"body":"just want to shuffle and make yourself"},{"startTime":1819.613,"endTime":1823.633,"body":"look good or, put your best guy on the"},{"startTime":1819.613,"endTime":1823.633,"body":"team and hope that your team doesn't"},{"startTime":1823.683,"endTime":1828.563,"body":"at that point your management for me, I"},{"startTime":1823.683,"endTime":1828.563,"body":"mean, that's a lot of, a lot of people"},{"startTime":1828.563,"endTime":1833.293,"body":"like that they feel like that's the end"},{"startTime":1828.563,"endTime":1833.293,"body":"of their ability is, well, I shuffled"},{"startTime":1833.293,"endTime":1835.123,"body":"the team and I told them what I wanted."},{"startTime":1835.273,"endTime":1838.343,"body":"I don't understand why they're"},{"startTime":1835.273,"endTime":1838.343,"body":"Well, you've not done the other"},{"startTime":1838.343,"endTime":1841.523,"body":"half of leadership, which is really"},{"startTime":1838.343,"endTime":1841.523,"body":"get in there, your part, right?"},{"startTime":1841.533,"endTime":1844.893,"body":"So if your management you haven't"},{"startTime":1841.533,"endTime":1844.893,"body":"done your part in the reason why"},{"startTime":1844.893,"endTime":1848.433,"body":"you're doing all these things is"},{"startTime":1844.893,"endTime":1848.433,"body":"because you're reacting and at the"},{"startTime":1848.433,"endTime":1851.463,"body":"end of it, you really need to look"},{"startTime":1848.433,"endTime":1851.463,"body":"in the mirror for a long time."},{"startTime":1851.613,"endTime":1855.623,"body":"But if you are leadership and you"},{"startTime":1851.613,"endTime":1855.623,"body":"really care for the success of"},{"startTime":1855.643,"endTime":1859.243,"body":"the organization, the teams as a"},{"startTime":1855.643,"endTime":1859.243,"body":"whole and ergo yourself, right?"},{"startTime":1859.393,"endTime":1864.273,"body":"One of the things you'd be doing is"},{"startTime":1859.393,"endTime":1864.273,"body":"figuring out the impact of making"},{"startTime":1864.383,"endTime":1866.733,"body":"a, even a small, minute change."},{"startTime":1866.883,"endTime":1870.668,"body":"Look at what it means to the"},{"startTime":1866.883,"endTime":1870.668,"body":"whole, not just the individual."},{"startTime":1870.818,"endTime":1873.538,"body":"From a nuanced perspective, I'm"},{"startTime":1870.818,"endTime":1873.538,"body":"going to move this person out"},{"startTime":1873.538,"endTime":1874.988,"body":"because they're not a team player."},{"startTime":1875.198,"endTime":1880.268,"body":"It's like, look at the impact of that"},{"startTime":1875.198,"endTime":1880.268,"body":"across the whole organization, right?"},{"startTime":1880.568,"endTime":1884.868,"body":"Not just your own view, like"},{"startTime":1880.568,"endTime":1884.868,"body":"that's probably very narrow."},{"startTime":1885.018,"endTime":1887.908,"body":"Look at that and say is"},{"startTime":1885.018,"endTime":1887.908,"body":"this the right thing to do?"},{"startTime":1887.938,"endTime":1888.808,"body":"And then weigh that up."},{"startTime":1888.958,"endTime":1891.758,"body":"If you're not sure, don't"},{"startTime":1888.958,"endTime":1891.758,"body":"do it, but ask other people."},{"startTime":1891.818,"endTime":1894.088,"body":"You know, look, what do you"},{"startTime":1891.818,"endTime":1894.088,"body":"think I should be doing here?"},{"startTime":1894.268,"endTime":1894.448,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1894.488,"endTime":1895.598,"body":"Be vulnerable and ask."},{"startTime":1895.748,"endTime":1898.013,"body":"And if three or four"},{"startTime":1895.748,"endTime":1898.013,"body":"people say, hey, you know."},{"startTime":1898.163,"endTime":1899.763,"body":"Maybe it's this one person."},{"startTime":1899.913,"endTime":1901.023,"body":"They have something, right?"},{"startTime":1901.063,"endTime":1904.633,"body":"And you can, you can probably go"},{"startTime":1901.063,"endTime":1904.633,"body":"It's still not data driven at that"},{"startTime":1904.633,"endTime":1906.623,"body":"point which I would love to, right?"},{"startTime":1906.873,"endTime":1908.243,"body":"You're not data driven, still."},{"startTime":1908.543,"endTime":1909.213,"body":"Figure that out."},{"startTime":1909.253,"endTime":1910.173,"body":"Talk to the person."},{"startTime":1910.233,"endTime":1911.853,"body":"Maybe there's something"},{"startTime":1910.233,"endTime":1911.853,"body":"going on in their life."},{"startTime":1911.963,"endTime":1913.353,"body":"Remember, you're not looking at the data."},{"startTime":1913.503,"endTime":1917.823,"body":"Resources But you're looking at"},{"startTime":1913.503,"endTime":1917.823,"body":"knowledge workers you're looking at"},{"startTime":1917.833,"endTime":1921.913,"body":"human beings Maybe there's something"},{"startTime":1917.833,"endTime":1921.913,"body":"going on that specific time in their"},{"startTime":1921.913,"endTime":1926.743,"body":"life that causes them not to give their"},{"startTime":1921.913,"endTime":1926.743,"body":"hundred percent Right but if they've"},{"startTime":1926.763,"endTime":1930.863,"body":"been giving their hundred percent"},{"startTime":1926.763,"endTime":1930.863,"body":"they're not giving 20 right now Even"},{"startTime":1930.863,"endTime":1934.628,"body":"though they they have other You know,"},{"startTime":1930.863,"endTime":1934.628,"body":"circumstances right in their lives."},{"startTime":1934.778,"endTime":1938.908,"body":"So understand that, understand it"},{"startTime":1934.778,"endTime":1938.908,"body":"because they are worth keeping, right?"},{"startTime":1938.918,"endTime":1942.648,"body":"If you can help them in some way, that's"},{"startTime":1938.918,"endTime":1942.648,"body":"what you should be doing as a leader, as"},{"startTime":1942.648,"endTime":1946.698,"body":"a manager, all you're doing is looking"},{"startTime":1942.648,"endTime":1946.698,"body":"at percentages and utilization on a"},{"startTime":1946.698,"endTime":1948.618,"body":"spreadsheet and you're making these moves."},{"startTime":1948.768,"endTime":1949.088,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":1949.088,"endTime":1949.558,"body":"Can't end"},{"startTime":1949.878,"endTime":1950.148,"body":"well."},{"startTime":1950.148,"endTime":1952.598,"body":"I mean, I would imagine that"},{"startTime":1950.148,"endTime":1952.598,"body":"either a lot of people's"},{"startTime":1952.598,"endTime":1954.578,"body":"experience is either number one."},{"startTime":1954.728,"endTime":1958.648,"body":"In some sort of program that is"},{"startTime":1954.728,"endTime":1958.648,"body":"failing with their customers."},{"startTime":1958.968,"endTime":1962.618,"body":"So the management is just moving people"},{"startTime":1958.968,"endTime":1962.618,"body":"around because they really are clueless."},{"startTime":1962.618,"endTime":1967.268,"body":"I mean, these, these are difficult,"},{"startTime":1962.618,"endTime":1967.268,"body":"even for, even for some excellent"},{"startTime":1967.388,"endTime":1970.458,"body":"agile coaches that I've worked with and"},{"startTime":1967.388,"endTime":1970.458,"body":"I've worked with some excellent ones."},{"startTime":1970.608,"endTime":1974.348,"body":"These steps are difficult to"},{"startTime":1970.608,"endTime":1974.348,"body":"analyze all the processes for"},{"startTime":1974.348,"endTime":1975.888,"body":"every team, doing it for one team."},{"startTime":1976.038,"endTime":1979.098,"body":"Is a challenge sure and it's"},{"startTime":1976.038,"endTime":1979.098,"body":"going to take you a while."},{"startTime":1979.248,"endTime":1984.268,"body":"Okay, but okay doing it for a program"},{"startTime":1979.248,"endTime":1984.268,"body":"Interconnected teams that each have"},{"startTime":1984.268,"endTime":1985.648,"body":"their own team problems Oh, okay."},{"startTime":1985.648,"endTime":1990.078,"body":"Some teams are, some teams are between"},{"startTime":1985.648,"endTime":1990.078,"body":"three and nine people or whatever."},{"startTime":1990.078,"endTime":1992.418,"body":"But we don't call the"},{"startTime":1990.078,"endTime":1992.418,"body":"specific number out anymore."},{"startTime":1992.508,"endTime":1995.218,"body":"Apparently in the scrum guide, whatever."},{"startTime":1995.458,"endTime":1997.228,"body":"Some, some of these are two pizza teams."},{"startTime":1997.238,"endTime":1998.938,"body":"Some of these teams are 20 plus people."},{"startTime":1999.078,"endTime":2001.168,"body":"I just finished the predictable success."},{"startTime":2001.238,"endTime":2005.428,"body":"Les McKeown's predictable success"},{"startTime":2001.238,"endTime":2005.428,"body":"and impredictable success."},{"startTime":2005.488,"endTime":2005.768,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2005.768,"endTime":2009.478,"body":"He says what you should do is you"},{"startTime":2005.768,"endTime":2009.478,"body":"should go around and ask people to"},{"startTime":2009.488,"endTime":2011.508,"body":"write you what the org chart looks like."},{"startTime":2011.528,"endTime":2012.868,"body":"And then you should say, no, no, no, no."},{"startTime":2013.008,"endTime":2016.258,"body":"Now write me how the orchard"},{"startTime":2013.008,"endTime":2016.258,"body":"actually works now, how do"},{"startTime":2016.258,"endTime":2017.448,"body":"I actually make decisions?"},{"startTime":2017.448,"endTime":2020.568,"body":"If you could write that org chart,"},{"startTime":2017.448,"endTime":2020.568,"body":"like to figure out communication"},{"startTime":2020.568,"endTime":2023.528,"body":"channels and leadership styles and"},{"startTime":2020.568,"endTime":2023.528,"body":"stuff like that, you'd be way ahead."},{"startTime":2023.528,"endTime":2026.748,"body":"But very few people are going to"},{"startTime":2023.528,"endTime":2026.748,"body":"invest that amount of time into"},{"startTime":2026.748,"endTime":2030.508,"body":"this, like pseudo theoretical"},{"startTime":2026.748,"endTime":2030.508,"body":"organizational design exercise."},{"startTime":2030.688,"endTime":2034.138,"body":"The way that we treat organizational"},{"startTime":2030.688,"endTime":2034.138,"body":"design is like, there are a few"},{"startTime":2034.138,"endTime":2037.518,"body":"people that really study it and"},{"startTime":2034.138,"endTime":2037.518,"body":"conduct studies across organizations."},{"startTime":2037.668,"endTime":2041.108,"body":"But the majority of people kind of"},{"startTime":2037.668,"endTime":2041.108,"body":"stumble through it and figure it out."},{"startTime":2041.258,"endTime":2044.518,"body":"Imagine if we treated other things"},{"startTime":2041.258,"endTime":2044.518,"body":"that way where the majority,"},{"startTime":2044.518,"endTime":2046.138,"body":"there's really not formal education."},{"startTime":2046.288,"endTime":2048.638,"body":"There are experts out there,"},{"startTime":2046.288,"endTime":2048.638,"body":"but quite honestly, we don't"},{"startTime":2048.638,"endTime":2050.338,"body":"really seek them out to help us."},{"startTime":2050.578,"endTime":2050.818,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2050.858,"endTime":2055.858,"body":"We all kind of just stumble through it"},{"startTime":2050.858,"endTime":2055.858,"body":"and, and, and through our own arrogance,"},{"startTime":2055.988,"endTime":2058.638,"body":"assume that we are doing it right."},{"startTime":2058.978,"endTime":2062.468,"body":"Like what other things, like imagine"},{"startTime":2058.978,"endTime":2062.468,"body":"a software development is like that."},{"startTime":2062.478,"endTime":2067.158,"body":"Pretend for a second that literally"},{"startTime":2062.478,"endTime":2067.158,"body":"everyone in your organization Had to"},{"startTime":2067.158,"endTime":2069.078,"body":"write code in order to do their jobs."},{"startTime":2069.228,"endTime":2069.778,"body":"Good luck."},{"startTime":2069.848,"endTime":2070.238,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2070.488,"endTime":2076.808,"body":"But they couldn't access any actual"},{"startTime":2070.488,"endTime":2076.808,"body":"software engineers to figure it out."},{"startTime":2076.958,"endTime":2079.628,"body":"And I was going to say they"},{"startTime":2076.958,"endTime":2079.628,"body":"couldn't check stack overflow."},{"startTime":2079.628,"endTime":2079.908,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2080.058,"endTime":2082.618,"body":"Maybe that's a little too extreme,"},{"startTime":2080.058,"endTime":2082.618,"body":"but that would be the point is like"},{"startTime":2082.738,"endTime":2086.038,"body":"now everyone's saying like, Oh, well,"},{"startTime":2082.738,"endTime":2086.038,"body":"I'm a, I'm a great software engineer."},{"startTime":2086.188,"endTime":2086.898,"body":"I mean, are you?"},{"startTime":2087.048,"endTime":2090.918,"body":"And then, and then based on how good I"},{"startTime":2087.048,"endTime":2090.918,"body":"feel about my skills, I'm now gonna tell"},{"startTime":2090.918,"endTime":2092.628,"body":"you how you should be a software engineer."},{"startTime":2092.678,"endTime":2094.798,"body":"I think that's where I'm going with"},{"startTime":2092.678,"endTime":2094.798,"body":"all this have you walked through"},{"startTime":2094.798,"endTime":2097.048,"body":"all these categories and if you have"},{"startTime":2094.798,"endTime":2097.048,"body":"walked through all these categories"},{"startTime":2097.238,"endTime":2100.628,"body":"like do you really understand the"},{"startTime":2097.238,"endTime":2100.628,"body":"data that you're looking at and."},{"startTime":2100.778,"endTime":2105.268,"body":"Do you have the ability to gather"},{"startTime":2100.778,"endTime":2105.268,"body":"qualitative and quantitative metrics?"},{"startTime":2105.418,"endTime":2108.438,"body":"Put the two together in a way where you"},{"startTime":2105.418,"endTime":2108.438,"body":"really understand what you're looking"},{"startTime":2108.438,"endTime":2111.518,"body":"at, and then when you feel like you"},{"startTime":2108.438,"endTime":2111.518,"body":"understand what you're looking at, do"},{"startTime":2111.518,"endTime":2113.838,"body":"you have somebody who really understands?"},{"startTime":2113.988,"endTime":2117.718,"body":"To check with to see if you're right about"},{"startTime":2113.988,"endTime":2117.718,"body":"what you're looking at vulnerable to ask"},{"startTime":2117.718,"endTime":2121.408,"body":"for help Yeah, right And at the end of"},{"startTime":2117.718,"endTime":2121.408,"body":"the day we've now we've now piled on so"},{"startTime":2121.408,"endTime":2125.478,"body":"many requirements that a lot of people"},{"startTime":2121.408,"endTime":2125.478,"body":"are saying like yeah I'm out like i'm yep."},{"startTime":2125.488,"endTime":2126.228,"body":"I get it done."},{"startTime":2126.258,"endTime":2126.638,"body":"I get it."},{"startTime":2126.708,"endTime":2130.198,"body":"Look if this was easy anybody"},{"startTime":2126.708,"endTime":2130.198,"body":"could do sure sure Oh my goodness,"},{"startTime":2130.208,"endTime":2131.168,"body":"where do we go from here?"},{"startTime":2131.208,"endTime":2132.228,"body":"Well, I mean great."},{"startTime":2132.278,"endTime":2136.708,"body":"I mean, I mean this points you made,"},{"startTime":2132.278,"endTime":2136.708,"body":"you know people can Rewind through"},{"startTime":2136.848,"endTime":2140.978,"body":"this podcast in slow motion and write"},{"startTime":2136.848,"endTime":2140.978,"body":"those down because listen every one of"},{"startTime":2140.978,"endTime":2142.748,"body":"those is critical Yeah, I feel, yeah"},{"startTime":2142.798,"endTime":2145.508,"body":"well, there's two other points"},{"startTime":2142.798,"endTime":2145.508,"body":"that are both, I feel legitimate"},{"startTime":2145.528,"endTime":2147.298,"body":"for shuffling people on teams."},{"startTime":2147.358,"endTime":2149.558,"body":"Number one is career growth"},{"startTime":2147.358,"endTime":2149.558,"body":"and career development."},{"startTime":2149.558,"endTime":2152.438,"body":"You've got to move people because"},{"startTime":2149.558,"endTime":2152.438,"body":"they, I mean, people can only stay"},{"startTime":2152.438,"endTime":2154.918,"body":"in one place for so long until"},{"startTime":2152.438,"endTime":2154.918,"body":"they they kind of stall in their"},{"startTime":2154.918,"endTime":2156.078,"body":"career growth, career development."},{"startTime":2156.408,"endTime":2159.628,"body":"So that's one thing as long as you're"},{"startTime":2156.408,"endTime":2159.628,"body":"actually talking to these individuals"},{"startTime":2159.628,"endTime":2162.838,"body":"involved and make sure that that's"},{"startTime":2159.628,"endTime":2162.838,"body":"the direction they want to go in fine."},{"startTime":2162.988,"endTime":2163.308,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2163.458,"endTime":2164.848,"body":"But if you're just saying, well."},{"startTime":2164.958,"endTime":2167.908,"body":"So Fred's been in this role too"},{"startTime":2164.958,"endTime":2167.908,"body":"long, or Mary's been in this role too"},{"startTime":2167.908,"endTime":2169.608,"body":"long and I think they should move."},{"startTime":2169.958,"endTime":2171.258,"body":"That's different."},{"startTime":2171.408,"endTime":2174.308,"body":"I think, I think what you just pointed"},{"startTime":2171.408,"endTime":2174.308,"body":"out is critical as well because I"},{"startTime":2174.328,"endTime":2178.248,"body":"think of one of my development teams"},{"startTime":2174.328,"endTime":2178.248,"body":"right now, we're really a figure"},{"startTime":2178.268,"endTime":2180.488,"body":"out and do cool new things team."},{"startTime":2180.708,"endTime":2185.758,"body":"And we're constantly doing cool new"},{"startTime":2180.708,"endTime":2185.758,"body":"things with different technologies."},{"startTime":2185.908,"endTime":2189.288,"body":"I've been on other teams that are"},{"startTime":2185.908,"endTime":2189.288,"body":"maintaining products that are in"},{"startTime":2189.298,"endTime":2194.018,"body":"sunset mode or maintain mode where"},{"startTime":2189.298,"endTime":2194.018,"body":"it's that it's the same, exactly."},{"startTime":2194.018,"endTime":2195.778,"body":"It's this, it's the same kind of thing."},{"startTime":2195.778,"endTime":2198.708,"body":"Day in, day out, answering"},{"startTime":2195.778,"endTime":2198.708,"body":"support tickets, doing bug fixes"},{"startTime":2198.838,"endTime":2200.528,"body":"and enhancements, and really no."},{"startTime":2200.678,"endTime":2203.388,"body":"Big changes, same code base"},{"startTime":2200.678,"endTime":2203.388,"body":"maybe an older code base."},{"startTime":2203.388,"endTime":2204.978,"body":"It doesn't really get updates or whatever."},{"startTime":2204.978,"endTime":2206.868,"body":"Like I I've been there before."},{"startTime":2207.128,"endTime":2210.788,"body":"if you're looking for the type of people"},{"startTime":2207.128,"endTime":2210.788,"body":"that needs stability and are okay with"},{"startTime":2210.788,"endTime":2213.238,"body":"that, and you're having one on one"},{"startTime":2210.788,"endTime":2213.238,"body":"conversations and those people are"},{"startTime":2213.238,"endTime":2216.458,"body":"telling you I don't really have a lot"},{"startTime":2213.238,"endTime":2216.458,"body":"of like high flying career achievements."},{"startTime":2216.458,"endTime":2217.678,"body":"I'm happy with stability."},{"startTime":2217.988,"endTime":2218.378,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2218.378,"endTime":2221.208,"body":"Until this program sunsets, if, if,"},{"startTime":2218.378,"endTime":2221.208,"body":"if those are the conversations you're"},{"startTime":2221.218,"endTime":2224.768,"body":"having as  their hiring manager in the"},{"startTime":2221.218,"endTime":2224.768,"body":"organization I mean, I guess that's fine"},{"startTime":2224.958,"endTime":2227.968,"body":"it is, but from the York standpoint,"},{"startTime":2224.958,"endTime":2227.968,"body":"there's something a little different,"},{"startTime":2228.138,"endTime":2232.548,"body":"so the people that are in the support"},{"startTime":2228.138,"endTime":2232.548,"body":"teams they may be content to be there"},{"startTime":2232.658,"endTime":2234.158,"body":"because they like doing support work."},{"startTime":2234.158,"endTime":2234.518,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2234.798,"endTime":2238.288,"body":"Well, from the org standpoint, what"},{"startTime":2234.798,"endTime":2238.288,"body":"I was going to say is, there's value."},{"startTime":2238.438,"endTime":2242.048,"body":"And these people interacting with"},{"startTime":2238.438,"endTime":2242.048,"body":"customers and learning about some"},{"startTime":2242.048,"endTime":2246.368,"body":"of the pain points of the existing"},{"startTime":2242.048,"endTime":2246.368,"body":"solution, feeding that right back into"},{"startTime":2246.638,"endTime":2248.498,"body":"the funnel at the beginning, right?"},{"startTime":2248.648,"endTime":2251.278,"body":"Into the intake and say,"},{"startTime":2248.648,"endTime":2251.278,"body":"these are things that aren't"},{"startTime":2251.278,"endTime":2252.698,"body":"working well for our customers."},{"startTime":2252.848,"endTime":2256.108,"body":"So you're not just supporting because"},{"startTime":2252.848,"endTime":2256.108,"body":"you get paid for a support contract"},{"startTime":2256.118,"endTime":2260.918,"body":"for a year  you're actually trying to"},{"startTime":2256.118,"endTime":2260.918,"body":"improve your product over time, right?"},{"startTime":2261.068,"endTime":2261.468,"body":"And."},{"startTime":2261.618,"endTime":2265.058,"body":"The delicate balance there is these"},{"startTime":2261.618,"endTime":2265.058,"body":"people need to feel empowered enough to"},{"startTime":2265.058,"endTime":2267.728,"body":"say Let's solicit from our customers."},{"startTime":2268.028,"endTime":2271.568,"body":"What are those pain points knowing"},{"startTime":2268.028,"endTime":2271.568,"body":"that if those pain points are"},{"startTime":2271.718,"endTime":2273.208,"body":"Taken care of quote unquote."},{"startTime":2273.468,"endTime":2276.438,"body":"Then there'll be less to support and"},{"startTime":2273.468,"endTime":2276.438,"body":"they may be jeopardizing their own"},{"startTime":2276.458,"endTime":2278.148,"body":"positions That's a delicate balance."},{"startTime":2278.188,"endTime":2282.638,"body":"Yeah, So the org needs to look at that"},{"startTime":2278.188,"endTime":2282.638,"body":"and say there's some skill sets here"},{"startTime":2282.718,"endTime":2284.688,"body":"that play these people are analysts."},{"startTime":2284.818,"endTime":2288.068,"body":"They're analyzing All these things,"},{"startTime":2284.818,"endTime":2288.068,"body":"the experience of the customer."},{"startTime":2288.218,"endTime":2291.568,"body":"Well when there's a time when"},{"startTime":2288.218,"endTime":2291.568,"body":"there's not too many calls"},{"startTime":2291.568,"endTime":2294.468,"body":"coming in, don't be thinking you"},{"startTime":2291.568,"endTime":2294.468,"body":"don't need these support people."},{"startTime":2294.518,"endTime":2296.788,"body":"You can reuse them somewhere else, right?"},{"startTime":2296.888,"endTime":2300.758,"body":"If you're astute to try and substitute"},{"startTime":2296.888,"endTime":2300.758,"body":"that for talent, you buy in."},{"startTime":2300.908,"endTime":2301.498,"body":"Good luck."},{"startTime":2301.708,"endTime":2303.318,"body":"It's not easy to do."},{"startTime":2303.468,"endTime":2308.358,"body":"the other reason that this kind of"},{"startTime":2303.468,"endTime":2308.358,"body":"shuffling might happen is because the"},{"startTime":2308.388,"endTime":2313.148,"body":"manager or the, the person with the budget"},{"startTime":2308.388,"endTime":2313.148,"body":"or leads or somebody is trying to resolve"},{"startTime":2313.148,"endTime":2315.748,"body":"a conflict, a conflict between people."},{"startTime":2315.978,"endTime":2318.648,"body":"So the concept might be,"},{"startTime":2315.978,"endTime":2318.648,"body":"well, there's a troublemaker."},{"startTime":2318.798,"endTime":2321.408,"body":"So we'll just put them out of the"},{"startTime":2318.798,"endTime":2321.408,"body":"pasture by putting them into support."},{"startTime":2321.428,"endTime":2322.068,"body":"That kind of thing."},{"startTime":2322.068,"endTime":2322.528,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2322.678,"endTime":2324.848,"body":"I'm, I'm guessing, but that's,"},{"startTime":2322.678,"endTime":2324.848,"body":"that's not a good thing."},{"startTime":2324.878,"endTime":2329.098,"body":"Where I've seen this is we have someone"},{"startTime":2324.878,"endTime":2329.098,"body":"that we think doesn't play well with"},{"startTime":2329.118,"endTime":2333.938,"body":"others and we just move them to another"},{"startTime":2329.118,"endTime":2333.938,"body":"team to see if they gel better with"},{"startTime":2333.948,"endTime":2338.498,"body":"those people before we try to before we"},{"startTime":2333.948,"endTime":2338.498,"body":"get rid of them from the organization."},{"startTime":2338.508,"endTime":2339.178,"body":"I've seen that."},{"startTime":2339.328,"endTime":2339.768,"body":"Right right."},{"startTime":2339.768,"endTime":2340.598,"body":"Yeah, I have too."},{"startTime":2340.608,"endTime":2346.188,"body":"It's, it's unfortunate because all you're"},{"startTime":2340.608,"endTime":2346.188,"body":"really doing is buying time for yourself."},{"startTime":2346.198,"endTime":2346.648,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2346.748,"endTime":2347.178,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2347.258,"endTime":2349.598,"body":"And, and it's at the"},{"startTime":2347.258,"endTime":2349.598,"body":"expense of the other person."},{"startTime":2349.598,"endTime":2349.798,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2349.798,"endTime":2350.058,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2350.058,"endTime":2350.428,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2350.508,"endTime":2353.988,"body":"So if you haven't talked to them and"},{"startTime":2350.508,"endTime":2353.988,"body":"you really haven't understood what's"},{"startTime":2353.988,"endTime":2358.538,"body":"at the, at the real heart of the issue,"},{"startTime":2353.988,"endTime":2358.538,"body":"you're not doing your job, right?"},{"startTime":2358.848,"endTime":2361.188,"body":"You're not, you're taking the easy"},{"startTime":2358.848,"endTime":2361.188,"body":"way out by saying, well, I did, I"},{"startTime":2361.188,"endTime":2363.878,"body":"did this, I did this, I did this,"},{"startTime":2361.188,"endTime":2363.878,"body":"and then it still didn't work out."},{"startTime":2363.878,"endTime":2364.708,"body":"So we got rid of them."},{"startTime":2364.858,"endTime":2365.178,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2365.428,"endTime":2368.728,"body":"So to your superiors, it looks"},{"startTime":2365.428,"endTime":2368.728,"body":"like, well, you're taking action."},{"startTime":2368.878,"endTime":2370.648,"body":"You're being proactive, right?"},{"startTime":2370.798,"endTime":2371.338,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2371.408,"endTime":2371.668,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2371.808,"endTime":2376.118,"body":"Well, You're very close to what"},{"startTime":2371.808,"endTime":2376.118,"body":"I've also seen is making it"},{"startTime":2376.128,"endTime":2377.728,"body":"somebody else's problem as well."},{"startTime":2377.878,"endTime":2382.798,"body":"Because this whole thing gets even"},{"startTime":2377.878,"endTime":2382.798,"body":"murkier when you talk about moving"},{"startTime":2382.798,"endTime":2385.098,"body":"people between program teams."},{"startTime":2385.248,"endTime":2389.558,"body":"So there's like separate programs and"},{"startTime":2385.248,"endTime":2389.558,"body":"like a large, a very large organization."},{"startTime":2389.808,"endTime":2393.768,"body":"Now everyone is just taking this low"},{"startTime":2389.808,"endTime":2393.768,"body":"performer and nobody wants to make"},{"startTime":2393.768,"endTime":2396.058,"body":"the final call to get rid of them."},{"startTime":2396.148,"endTime":2400.858,"body":"The funny story about this is I see"},{"startTime":2396.148,"endTime":2400.858,"body":"this the most in management, they take"},{"startTime":2400.888,"endTime":2404.798,"body":"a manager who is subpar and they keep"},{"startTime":2400.888,"endTime":2404.798,"body":"moving them around within the very"},{"startTime":2404.798,"endTime":2408.268,"body":"large organization and all they have"},{"startTime":2404.798,"endTime":2408.268,"body":"is really is a history of failure."},{"startTime":2408.418,"endTime":2409.188,"body":"Ah, yes."},{"startTime":2409.208,"endTime":2409.778,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":2409.788,"endTime":2412.968,"body":"And To your point these are"},{"startTime":2409.788,"endTime":2412.968,"body":"all, of course, FTEs, right?"},{"startTime":2413.118,"endTime":2414.008,"body":"You're, you're right."},{"startTime":2414.018,"endTime":2417.158,"body":"Usually when I've seen this, it's,"},{"startTime":2414.018,"endTime":2417.158,"body":"it's that kind of situation where these"},{"startTime":2417.178,"endTime":2418.808,"body":"people are permanent employees somehow."},{"startTime":2418.808,"endTime":2422.068,"body":"And essentially there are"},{"startTime":2418.808,"endTime":2422.068,"body":"ways to get rid of them."},{"startTime":2422.068,"endTime":2425.628,"body":"It's just, nobody wants to spend that"},{"startTime":2422.068,"endTime":2425.628,"body":"political capital because their culture is"},{"startTime":2425.628,"endTime":2429.428,"body":"way too guarded to spend political capital"},{"startTime":2425.628,"endTime":2429.428,"body":"on something you can just make go away."},{"startTime":2429.578,"endTime":2430.548,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":2430.598,"endTime":2430.828,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2430.858,"endTime":2434.498,"body":"The status quo, that sounds terrifying."},{"startTime":2434.648,"endTime":2435.438,"body":"It sure is."},{"startTime":2435.518,"endTime":2440.618,"body":"It's terrifying, but you know what folks"},{"startTime":2435.518,"endTime":2440.618,"body":"we're going to take this and spin it into"},{"startTime":2440.618,"endTime":2446.318,"body":"a different podcast and talk about these"},{"startTime":2440.618,"endTime":2446.318,"body":"different ways, how companies Maintain"},{"startTime":2446.418,"endTime":2450.298,"body":"the status quo and those that don't and"},{"startTime":2446.418,"endTime":2450.298,"body":"you know, compare and contrast those two."},{"startTime":2450.548,"endTime":2452.618,"body":"I think that's a good"},{"startTime":2450.548,"endTime":2452.618,"body":"topic for a podcast also."},{"startTime":2452.618,"endTime":2454.468,"body":"Yeah, we may have a guess for that."},{"startTime":2454.488,"endTime":2456.368,"body":"We may not You'll have to"},{"startTime":2454.488,"endTime":2456.368,"body":"just tune in and find out"},{"startTime":2456.518,"endTime":2459.258,"body":"but if there's other podcasts"},{"startTime":2456.518,"endTime":2459.258,"body":"that you would like to hear Let"},{"startTime":2459.258,"endTime":2463.108,"body":"us know in the comments below and"},{"startTime":2459.258,"endTime":2463.108,"body":"like and subscribe ring that bell"}]}