{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"welcome to the arguing the Agile podcast"},{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"where enterprise business agility"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"coach Om Patel and me product manager"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"Brian Orlando debate the real world"},{"startTime":8.45,"endTime":10.54,"body":"challenges Agile professionals will face."},{"startTime":10.74,"endTime":12.329,"body":"We are not here to sell you anything."},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"We are here to argue about"},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"Agile so that you don't have to."},{"startTime":18.002,"endTime":23.312,"body":"So Om and I discussed and we decided"},{"startTime":18.002,"endTime":23.312,"body":"we needed to have a session that we've"},{"startTime":23.312,"endTime":28.732,"body":"never had before about backlog refinement"},{"startTime":23.312,"endTime":28.732,"body":"and splitting stories, breaking stories"},{"startTime":28.762,"endTime":31.222,"body":"down into much smaller segments of work."},{"startTime":31.222,"endTime":33.622,"body":"We've actually never"},{"startTime":31.222,"endTime":33.622,"body":"had a podcast on this."},{"startTime":33.772,"endTime":37.772,"body":"Yeah, I'm gonna do a separate"},{"startTime":33.772,"endTime":37.772,"body":"podcast on backlog refinement."},{"startTime":37.822,"endTime":41.582,"body":"That's right on the on the process the"},{"startTime":37.822,"endTime":41.582,"body":"framework the process the actual day"},{"startTime":41.582,"endTime":43.672,"body":"to day Of backlog refinement, I guess."},{"startTime":43.742,"endTime":44.802,"body":"Best practices."},{"startTime":44.802,"endTime":45.512,"body":"Is that a right?"},{"startTime":45.582,"endTime":46.542,"body":"Some good practices."},{"startTime":46.552,"endTime":47.742,"body":"We don't say best practices."},{"startTime":47.992,"endTime":48.182,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":48.182,"endTime":48.992,"body":"Good, good practice."},{"startTime":48.992,"endTime":49.692,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":49.912,"endTime":54.042,"body":"But yeah, today's focus is on splitting"},{"startTime":49.912,"endTime":54.042,"body":"work down to smaller chunks so"},{"startTime":54.042,"endTime":56.082,"body":"that the team can get things done."},{"startTime":56.142,"endTime":59.272,"body":"And in case this is your first"},{"startTime":56.142,"endTime":59.272,"body":"time on the arguing agile podcast."},{"startTime":59.322,"endTime":59.652,"body":"Mr."},{"startTime":59.652,"endTime":63.312,"body":"Om Patel enterprise business agility"},{"startTime":59.652,"endTime":63.312,"body":"coach, and I'm Brian Orlando."},{"startTime":63.312,"endTime":64.232,"body":"I'm product manager."},{"startTime":64.522,"endTime":65.592,"body":"We both work in the field."},{"startTime":65.662,"endTime":67.932,"body":"Neither of us have yachts that I know of."},{"startTime":68.082,"endTime":70.282,"body":"Definitely don't have"},{"startTime":68.082,"endTime":70.282,"body":"yachts, not even paper ones."},{"startTime":70.292,"endTime":72.462,"body":"Maybe one, maybe one, maybe one day."},{"startTime":72.612,"endTime":75.612,"body":"let's get some high level stuff out"},{"startTime":72.612,"endTime":75.612,"body":"of the way when it comes to splitting"},{"startTime":75.612,"endTime":79.222,"body":"stories, the high level stuff that I want"},{"startTime":75.612,"endTime":79.222,"body":"to get out of the way right away is we"},{"startTime":79.222,"endTime":81.862,"body":"all agree in vertical slicing of stories."},{"startTime":81.862,"endTime":85.102,"body":"Like there's not going to be anything"},{"startTime":81.862,"endTime":85.102,"body":"on this podcast about, Oh, do all the"},{"startTime":85.102,"endTime":88.892,"body":"database stuff and then do all the UI"},{"startTime":85.102,"endTime":88.892,"body":"stuff and then do all the QA and all the"},{"startTime":88.892,"endTime":92.952,"body":"whatever, like that's, Absolutely not"},{"startTime":88.892,"endTime":92.952,"body":"we'll not the, the, we're, we're, we're"},{"startTime":92.952,"endTime":94.932,"body":"also not going into working agreements."},{"startTime":94.932,"endTime":98.222,"body":"We're not going into a lot of, a"},{"startTime":94.932,"endTime":98.222,"body":"lot of tangents we can get into."},{"startTime":98.552,"endTime":101.772,"body":"We're going to stay away from on this"},{"startTime":98.552,"endTime":101.772,"body":"podcast just because we have so much"},{"startTime":101.772,"endTime":103.402,"body":"content to get into on the podcast."},{"startTime":103.452,"endTime":103.732,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":103.732,"endTime":105.642,"body":"Slicing stories like you slice your cake."},{"startTime":105.712,"endTime":108.582,"body":"I know somebody's going to say,"},{"startTime":105.712,"endTime":108.582,"body":"but I love just the frosting,"},{"startTime":108.922,"endTime":110.302,"body":"but that's cake, not stories."},{"startTime":110.372,"endTime":110.852,"body":"That's me."},{"startTime":111.002,"endTime":112.402,"body":"I do love icing."},{"startTime":112.662,"endTime":113.062,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":113.102,"endTime":113.452,"body":"That's all right."},{"startTime":113.452,"endTime":117.762,"body":", the other thing that you will encounter if"},{"startTime":113.452,"endTime":117.762,"body":"you ever Google for how to slice stories."},{"startTime":118.027,"endTime":120.587,"body":"You're going to come up"},{"startTime":118.027,"endTime":120.587,"body":"with the INVEST acronym."},{"startTime":120.617,"endTime":121.807,"body":"The INVEST principle."},{"startTime":121.827,"endTime":122.477,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":122.507,"endTime":123.037,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":123.187,"endTime":124.767,"body":"I I don't know what INVEST means."},{"startTime":124.767,"endTime":128.137,"body":"I can't, in, in, in,"},{"startTime":124.767,"endTime":128.137,"body":"individual, negligible."},{"startTime":128.167,"endTime":131.237,"body":"I, I think it just means"},{"startTime":128.167,"endTime":131.237,"body":"when you're wearing a vest."},{"startTime":131.497,"endTime":132.266,"body":"When you're wearing a vest?"},{"startTime":132.416,"endTime":133.506,"body":"In, in a vest."},{"startTime":133.507,"endTime":135.136,"body":"In a vest."},{"startTime":135.136,"endTime":137.746,"body":"So, we're not going to necessarily"},{"startTime":135.136,"endTime":137.746,"body":"go into that because you can find"},{"startTime":137.746,"endTime":140.826,"body":"that on disparate different sources"},{"startTime":137.746,"endTime":140.826,"body":"out there on the worldwide interwebs."},{"startTime":140.976,"endTime":144.796,"body":"So that leaves one more thing and"},{"startTime":140.976,"endTime":144.796,"body":"that is splitting your stories down"},{"startTime":144.797,"endTime":146.667,"body":"to roughly about the same size."},{"startTime":146.817,"endTime":150.737,"body":"And again, we're not prescribing"},{"startTime":146.817,"endTime":150.737,"body":"necessarily that thou shall do that,"},{"startTime":150.737,"endTime":154.987,"body":"but it's not a bad idea to look at a"},{"startTime":150.737,"endTime":154.987,"body":"fairly good distribution like that."},{"startTime":155.137,"endTime":157.596,"body":"Most of your stories are about the"},{"startTime":155.137,"endTime":157.596,"body":"same size, and then your team can"},{"startTime":157.596,"endTime":162.616,"body":"feel empowered to take on as a, as a"},{"startTime":157.596,"endTime":162.616,"body":"stretch once they get to that point, a"},{"startTime":162.736,"endTime":164.686,"body":"story that's a bit bigger, that's okay."},{"startTime":164.686,"endTime":166.706,"body":"You don't necessarily have"},{"startTime":164.686,"endTime":166.706,"body":"to have everything the same"},{"startTime":166.856,"endTime":168.876,"body":"size, but about the same size."},{"startTime":169.191,"endTime":169.616,"body":"Right right."},{"startTime":169.766,"endTime":172.396,"body":"Well, it so let me, let me go"},{"startTime":169.766,"endTime":172.396,"body":"back to invest for a second before"},{"startTime":172.396,"endTime":173.656,"body":"I harp on same size stories."},{"startTime":173.656,"endTime":174.016,"body":"Let's, yeah."},{"startTime":174.046,"endTime":179.536,"body":"So, so the invest, I like why I'm"},{"startTime":174.046,"endTime":179.536,"body":"not a big fan of the Invest acronym."},{"startTime":179.541,"endTime":183.196,"body":"Like I, I like, I it's"},{"startTime":179.541,"endTime":183.196,"body":"independent, negotiable, valuable."},{"startTime":183.346,"endTime":184.786,"body":"Estimable, estimatable."},{"startTime":184.786,"endTime":185.446,"body":"I can never remember."},{"startTime":185.446,"endTime":187.186,"body":"Yeah, that's the mobile small."},{"startTime":187.336,"endTime":188.916,"body":"Whatever that means and testable."},{"startTime":189.166,"endTime":190.406,"body":"Okay, so there we go."},{"startTime":190.446,"endTime":191.606,"body":"We got we got invest."},{"startTime":191.746,"endTime":195.496,"body":"It's out of the way Why I don't like"},{"startTime":191.746,"endTime":195.496,"body":"invest is because like people will"},{"startTime":195.496,"endTime":200.376,"body":"say hey, well does this fit the invest"},{"startTime":195.496,"endTime":200.376,"body":"principle and I'll say Yeah, sure And"},{"startTime":200.376,"endTime":201.776,"body":"then that's about all I think about it."},{"startTime":201.776,"endTime":205.036,"body":"Cause it's cause invest"},{"startTime":201.776,"endTime":205.036,"body":"basically is useless to me."},{"startTime":205.186,"endTime":208.686,"body":"Cause when I'm in when I'm in a backlog"},{"startTime":205.186,"endTime":208.686,"body":"refinement and I'm trying to split"},{"startTime":208.726,"endTime":213.456,"body":"things, I'm not going through every"},{"startTime":208.726,"endTime":213.456,"body":"single letter of the I N V E and also"},{"startTime":213.456,"endTime":215.446,"body":"some of that is like is this independent?"},{"startTime":215.566,"endTime":217.436,"body":"Like, does it work by, I mean, yes."},{"startTime":217.586,"endTime":218.806,"body":"Is it estimable?"},{"startTime":218.856,"endTime":219.956,"body":"I think it's estimable."},{"startTime":220.006,"endTime":220.766,"body":"You might not."},{"startTime":220.916,"endTime":223.846,"body":"You know, well, it's just so what"},{"startTime":220.916,"endTime":223.846,"body":"do we all have to completely agree?"},{"startTime":223.886,"endTime":226.276,"body":"I don't want to spend a lot"},{"startTime":223.886,"endTime":226.276,"body":"of time on on this acronym."},{"startTime":226.296,"endTime":227.901,"body":"I understand people will use it."},{"startTime":228.051,"endTime":230.931,"body":"You're not going to get around it"},{"startTime":228.051,"endTime":230.931,"body":"if you go and you Google this topic."},{"startTime":230.931,"endTime":235.701,"body":"But what we're going to give you here"},{"startTime":230.931,"endTime":235.701,"body":"is going to be a lot more actionable"},{"startTime":235.851,"endTime":241.001,"body":"than this ambiguous acronym that you're"},{"startTime":235.851,"endTime":241.001,"body":"not quite sure how to apply each."},{"startTime":241.151,"endTime":243.261,"body":"So, so I I want to stay away from it."},{"startTime":243.461,"endTime":246.271,"body":"I guess we could apply it to each of"},{"startTime":243.461,"endTime":246.271,"body":"these categories if we're really, we're"},{"startTime":246.271,"endTime":248.071,"body":"going all in on a very long podcast."},{"startTime":248.221,"endTime":249.661,"body":"I was going to say also boring."},{"startTime":249.671,"endTime":250.191,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":250.381,"endTime":250.771,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":250.871,"endTime":252.781,"body":"But stories of similar size."},{"startTime":252.931,"endTime":253.741,"body":"I agree with this one."},{"startTime":253.741,"endTime":256.931,"body":"I think this one is the end goal of"},{"startTime":253.741,"endTime":256.931,"body":"everything we're about to go through."},{"startTime":257.081,"endTime":260.421,"body":"If you're trying to take your"},{"startTime":257.081,"endTime":260.421,"body":"larger stories, you bring them"},{"startTime":260.421,"endTime":263.851,"body":"in and you say, Hey the team says"},{"startTime":260.421,"endTime":263.851,"body":"we can't do this in a sprint."},{"startTime":263.901,"endTime":265.361,"body":"There's nothing we can do with this story."},{"startTime":265.611,"endTime":266.551,"body":"It needs to be broken down."},{"startTime":266.881,"endTime":269.261,"body":"And then you say, okay, well, how can we?"},{"startTime":269.541,"endTime":272.771,"body":"Break it and divide it where"},{"startTime":269.541,"endTime":272.771,"body":"it breaks into several things"},{"startTime":272.801,"endTime":274.281,"body":"that are of similar size."},{"startTime":274.511,"endTime":276.021,"body":"I had a scrum trainer one time."},{"startTime":276.081,"endTime":277.001,"body":"I'm not going to mention who it was."},{"startTime":277.001,"endTime":280.221,"body":"I had a scrum trainer one time who"},{"startTime":277.001,"endTime":280.221,"body":"said one of the smartest things"},{"startTime":280.361,"endTime":281.831,"body":"with regard to breaking down stories"},{"startTime":281.831,"endTime":286.281,"body":"he said the similarity"},{"startTime":281.831,"endTime":286.281,"body":"here is to fluid mechanics."},{"startTime":286.431,"endTime":291.061,"body":"Meaning, if you have objects in your"},{"startTime":286.431,"endTime":291.061,"body":"water that flow through pipes the,"},{"startTime":291.091,"endTime":295.471,"body":"the fastest flow that you will get"},{"startTime":291.091,"endTime":295.471,"body":"is when all of the objects in the"},{"startTime":295.471,"endTime":298.041,"body":"water are small and the same size."},{"startTime":298.191,"endTime":301.971,"body":"You get clogs when things are multiple"},{"startTime":298.191,"endTime":301.971,"body":"different sizes all over the place."},{"startTime":302.121,"endTime":305.351,"body":"But if everything, everything is small"},{"startTime":302.121,"endTime":305.351,"body":"in the same size, then you will always"},{"startTime":305.351,"endTime":308.291,"body":"have flow through the plumbing system."},{"startTime":308.521,"endTime":309.081,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":309.121,"endTime":309.561,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":309.591,"endTime":314.121,"body":"And then just to extend that given"},{"startTime":309.591,"endTime":314.121,"body":"a fixed size pipe, if you had things"},{"startTime":314.271,"endTime":316.491,"body":"That were small, small, small."},{"startTime":316.521,"endTime":317.981,"body":"You'll have a faster flow, right?"},{"startTime":317.981,"endTime":319.011,"body":"So that's what we're trying to say."},{"startTime":319.011,"endTime":322.711,"body":"Here's we're not saying similar size"},{"startTime":319.011,"endTime":322.711,"body":"means they should all be the same size."},{"startTime":322.771,"endTime":323.811,"body":"Just to be clear, right?"},{"startTime":323.851,"endTime":324.491,"body":"Similar."},{"startTime":324.641,"endTime":325.151,"body":"That's all."},{"startTime":325.401,"endTime":327.801,"body":"So you don't have rocks,"},{"startTime":325.401,"endTime":327.801,"body":"boulders and pebbles."},{"startTime":328.061,"endTime":330.841,"body":"You have mostly pebbles where you"},{"startTime":328.061,"endTime":330.841,"body":"look somewhere a little bigger."},{"startTime":330.841,"endTime":330.901,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":330.901,"endTime":331.301,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":331.451,"endTime":334.131,"body":"But they can still flow nicely through"},{"startTime":331.451,"endTime":334.131,"body":"this despite who we're talking about."},{"startTime":334.471,"endTime":337.951,"body":"And for people who have started with"},{"startTime":334.471,"endTime":337.951,"body":"a new team, like the team obviously is"},{"startTime":337.961,"endTime":342.056,"body":"in the Forming stage or norming stage"},{"startTime":337.961,"endTime":342.056,"body":"when it comes to breaking down stories."},{"startTime":342.056,"endTime":344.846,"body":"And there's a lot of friction and then"},{"startTime":342.056,"endTime":344.846,"body":"the developers don't really understand"},{"startTime":344.846,"endTime":346.516,"body":"why they have to do vertical slicing."},{"startTime":346.516,"endTime":346.696,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":346.946,"endTime":348.516,"body":"Oh, I don't understand where the value is."},{"startTime":348.516,"endTime":351.116,"body":"We got to do everything all the"},{"startTime":348.516,"endTime":351.116,"body":"requirements up front, that kind of"},{"startTime":351.116,"endTime":354.506,"body":"stuff, and you're kind of fighting the"},{"startTime":351.116,"endTime":354.506,"body":"good fight here, The vertical slicing"},{"startTime":354.506,"endTime":358.456,"body":"suggestions that we're about to give here"},{"startTime":354.506,"endTime":358.456,"body":"you're looking for the end of a two week"},{"startTime":358.456,"endTime":363.206,"body":"cycle or three cycle to say, Hey, we're"},{"startTime":358.456,"endTime":363.206,"body":"getting to our next demo with the users"},{"startTime":363.356,"endTime":366.546,"body":"and what can we demo in front of the user?"},{"startTime":366.546,"endTime":368.356,"body":"So the, the, the really, the"},{"startTime":366.546,"endTime":368.356,"body":"only way you can do that."},{"startTime":368.506,"endTime":370.026,"body":"And be in production."},{"startTime":370.176,"endTime":371.636,"body":"This is a caveat right there, right?"},{"startTime":371.666,"endTime":377.566,"body":"Real live working software is if you're"},{"startTime":371.666,"endTime":377.566,"body":"doing a slice down the whole stack."},{"startTime":377.716,"endTime":378.286,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":378.286,"endTime":381.526,"body":"And everything you just said also, I"},{"startTime":378.286,"endTime":381.526,"body":"feel like applies to those people out"},{"startTime":381.526,"endTime":384.556,"body":"there that are working in a Kanban"},{"startTime":381.526,"endTime":384.556,"body":"way as well, because if you've got"},{"startTime":384.706,"endTime":389.646,"body":"larger chunks, On your stories, then"},{"startTime":384.706,"endTime":389.646,"body":"the flow that we talked about is going"},{"startTime":389.646,"endTime":392.116,"body":"to be rather erratic at best, right?"},{"startTime":392.156,"endTime":394.806,"body":"Or clogged in some cases when you"},{"startTime":392.156,"endTime":394.806,"body":"have stories that are stuck in"},{"startTime":394.806,"endTime":396.286,"body":"the same column for days on end."},{"startTime":396.436,"endTime":399.096,"body":"You might not have stories"},{"startTime":396.436,"endTime":399.096,"body":"that are about the same size."},{"startTime":399.246,"endTime":401.466,"body":"And your forecast is going"},{"startTime":399.246,"endTime":401.466,"body":"to be unpredictable on the"},{"startTime":401.486,"endTime":402.576,"body":"product side of the equation."},{"startTime":402.576,"endTime":405.006,"body":"Your forecast is going to be very"},{"startTime":402.576,"endTime":405.006,"body":"unpredictable and the business is going"},{"startTime":405.006,"endTime":408.601,"body":"to be very going to be very discontent."},{"startTime":408.851,"endTime":409.261,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":409.421,"endTime":409.821,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":409.971,"endTime":410.311,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":410.461,"endTime":414.561,"body":"this is a really good topic because I"},{"startTime":410.461,"endTime":414.561,"body":"feel like most teams that form don't"},{"startTime":414.561,"endTime":416.811,"body":"spend enough time discussing all of this."},{"startTime":416.891,"endTime":420.591,"body":"They just go straight in and get on"},{"startTime":416.891,"endTime":420.591,"body":"with the work and stumble and struggle."},{"startTime":420.791,"endTime":421.461,"body":"I think so."},{"startTime":421.461,"endTime":422.021,"body":"I think so."},{"startTime":422.061,"endTime":425.442,"body":"So what which, which workflow?"},{"startTime":425.592,"endTime":429.202,"body":"Workflow via value I think I think"},{"startTime":425.592,"endTime":429.202,"body":"the workflow is fine because you"},{"startTime":429.202,"endTime":434.032,"body":"know, given that most people working"},{"startTime":429.202,"endTime":434.032,"body":"on systems that are more complex than"},{"startTime":434.032,"endTime":436.162,"body":"a simple, a simple workflow, right?"},{"startTime":436.172,"endTime":440.092,"body":"Most of the time, then splitting"},{"startTime":436.172,"endTime":440.092,"body":"stories by workflow would be"},{"startTime":440.092,"endTime":441.212,"body":"a pretty good place to start."},{"startTime":441.312,"endTime":445.662,"body":"So, so when I think about workflow,"},{"startTime":441.312,"endTime":445.662,"body":"workflow is I, I do operation"},{"startTime":445.672,"endTime":448.852,"body":"X and then I do operation Y"},{"startTime":445.672,"endTime":448.852,"body":"and then I do operation Zed."},{"startTime":448.867,"endTime":450.586,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":450.587,"endTime":455.297,"body":"I'm learning dry operation or"},{"startTime":450.587,"endTime":455.297,"body":"operation a B and C that's right."},{"startTime":455.297,"endTime":457.087,"body":"There's no, there's no, that's a B and C."},{"startTime":457.087,"endTime":457.307,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":457.327,"endTime":457.657,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":457.667,"endTime":458.087,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":458.117,"endTime":460.887,"body":"Just check it unless you"},{"startTime":458.117,"endTime":460.887,"body":"have 26, unless I have a lot."},{"startTime":460.887,"endTime":461.427,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":461.427,"endTime":463.327,"body":"58 easy steps."},{"startTime":463.617,"endTime":465.257,"body":"Look, I'll give you an"},{"startTime":463.617,"endTime":465.257,"body":"example here, right?"},{"startTime":465.267,"endTime":469.617,"body":"So, so you've got a website that people"},{"startTime":465.267,"endTime":469.617,"body":"can log in and browse and whatever"},{"startTime":469.697,"endTime":473.297,"body":"typical e commerce scenario, step a"},{"startTime":469.697,"endTime":473.297,"body":"might be just to be able to log in."},{"startTime":473.447,"endTime":473.897,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":473.977,"endTime":476.847,"body":"So all you can do is log in, but,"},{"startTime":473.977,"endTime":476.847,"body":"but, but what about if I don't know"},{"startTime":476.847,"endTime":478.527,"body":"my password, password recovery?"},{"startTime":478.557,"endTime":479.317,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":479.637,"endTime":481.277,"body":"But those could be separate stories."},{"startTime":481.357,"endTime":482.657,"body":"That's completely all right."},{"startTime":482.657,"endTime":482.857,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":482.857,"endTime":483.127,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":483.237,"endTime":483.477,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":483.547,"endTime":485.927,"body":"You can bring those into"},{"startTime":483.547,"endTime":485.927,"body":"another sprint if you had to."},{"startTime":486.077,"endTime":486.367,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":486.397,"endTime":486.627,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":486.637,"endTime":486.877,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":487.097,"endTime":488.467,"body":"A lot of people call that happy path."},{"startTime":488.467,"endTime":493.557,"body":"And I've launched new systems before where"},{"startTime":488.467,"endTime":493.557,"body":"you had no password reset functionality."},{"startTime":493.557,"endTime":497.267,"body":"People had to email support to"},{"startTime":493.557,"endTime":497.267,"body":"have their new password sent out."},{"startTime":497.327,"endTime":498.367,"body":"Oh, I forgot my password."},{"startTime":498.367,"endTime":499.027,"body":"I don't know what to do."},{"startTime":499.047,"endTime":499.757,"body":"It stinks."},{"startTime":499.947,"endTime":500.707,"body":"It certainly does."},{"startTime":500.707,"endTime":505.217,"body":"Like it doesn't smack of a modern"},{"startTime":500.707,"endTime":505.217,"body":"system, but I mean, it's not"},{"startTime":505.217,"endTime":507.207,"body":"a permanent situation anyway."},{"startTime":507.277,"endTime":511.237,"body":"So it may be sprint X, you have that,"},{"startTime":507.277,"endTime":511.237,"body":"and then sprint, YX plus whatever"},{"startTime":511.477,"endTime":513.367,"body":"you bring in the other functionality."},{"startTime":513.367,"endTime":515.827,"body":"So it's just a question of delivering."},{"startTime":515.977,"endTime":519.847,"body":"Going back to our other point horizontally"},{"startTime":515.977,"endTime":519.847,"body":"delivering value every, every time."},{"startTime":519.907,"endTime":520.147,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":520.307,"endTime":522.437,"body":".  I also think about this"},{"startTime":520.307,"endTime":522.437,"body":"workflow via value."},{"startTime":522.437,"endTime":524.357,"body":"I think about like, well, what"},{"startTime":522.437,"endTime":524.357,"body":"is the most valuable thing"},{"startTime":524.457,"endTime":528.847,"body":"I spent a lot of time in logistics so"},{"startTime":524.457,"endTime":528.847,"body":"software for truck drivers and whatnot"},{"startTime":528.857,"endTime":530.107,"body":"and shipping and stuff like that."},{"startTime":530.417,"endTime":533.967,"body":"So I think about if the most valuable"},{"startTime":530.417,"endTime":533.967,"body":"thing in the software is you have"},{"startTime":533.967,"endTime":538.627,"body":"to be able to get your collection of"},{"startTime":533.967,"endTime":538.627,"body":"documents signed and then send off"},{"startTime":538.627,"endTime":539.897,"body":"the signed documents to somebody."},{"startTime":540.187,"endTime":543.467,"body":"Like there, there's, there's a"},{"startTime":540.187,"endTime":543.467,"body":"pathway that is most valuable."},{"startTime":543.477,"endTime":545.757,"body":"I mean, you, you need to get"},{"startTime":543.477,"endTime":545.757,"body":"the documents that you have."},{"startTime":545.907,"endTime":550.127,"body":"For the cargo that you're carrying"},{"startTime":545.907,"endTime":550.127,"body":"signed off by the appropriate person."},{"startTime":550.347,"endTime":553.567,"body":"And then that signed off document"},{"startTime":550.347,"endTime":553.567,"body":"has to go back to your home office"},{"startTime":553.567,"endTime":555.157,"body":"and be received by your home office."},{"startTime":555.357,"endTime":557.457,"body":"Now there's some backend tasks"},{"startTime":555.357,"endTime":557.457,"body":"that they probably do with it."},{"startTime":557.607,"endTime":560.887,"body":"There's a couple of steps I just"},{"startTime":557.607,"endTime":560.887,"body":"outlined that probably are really,"},{"startTime":560.887,"endTime":562.367,"body":"really, valuable or critical."},{"startTime":562.567,"endTime":565.447,"body":"Which is, can you collect all your"},{"startTime":562.567,"endTime":565.447,"body":"signatures in the application?"},{"startTime":565.597,"endTime":567.247,"body":"How does the application handle that?"},{"startTime":567.247,"endTime":570.947,"body":"And then, once you have all your"},{"startTime":567.247,"endTime":570.947,"body":"signatures, how do you package it all up?"},{"startTime":571.097,"endTime":573.377,"body":"And then send it back to home"},{"startTime":571.097,"endTime":573.377,"body":"office, whatever that looks like."},{"startTime":573.527,"endTime":577.577,"body":"In logistics it was a PDF signature"},{"startTime":573.527,"endTime":577.577,"body":"and What's, what's the PDF DocuSign?"},{"startTime":577.587,"endTime":578.377,"body":"Is that the DocuSign?"},{"startTime":578.377,"endTime":578.781,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":578.912,"endTime":581.332,"body":"It was integration with DocuSign"},{"startTime":578.912,"endTime":581.332,"body":"and stuff on the back end."},{"startTime":581.572,"endTime":584.182,"body":"The technical was integration"},{"startTime":581.572,"endTime":584.182,"body":"with DocuSign and stuff like that."},{"startTime":584.482,"endTime":586.972,"body":"But those were very critical"},{"startTime":584.482,"endTime":586.972,"body":"business operations."},{"startTime":587.262,"endTime":591.422,"body":"So the workflow through the application"},{"startTime":587.262,"endTime":591.422,"body":"was, I log in the application, I open"},{"startTime":591.422,"endTime":594.491,"body":"up the current job that I'm working on."},{"startTime":594.641,"endTime":595.961,"body":"I have documents for that job."},{"startTime":596.111,"endTime":599.161,"body":"And then I take them to a certain"},{"startTime":596.111,"endTime":599.161,"body":"step, and then I get the signatures"},{"startTime":599.161,"endTime":601.931,"body":"I need, and I submit them, and"},{"startTime":599.161,"endTime":601.931,"body":"they get back to the home office."},{"startTime":602.141,"endTime":604.961,"body":"That's a couple of major stories."},{"startTime":605.111,"endTime":605.851,"body":"Back to back to back."},{"startTime":606.001,"endTime":611.631,"body":"we're not going down all the"},{"startTime":606.001,"endTime":611.631,"body":"little side routes of exceptions"},{"startTime":611.631,"endTime":613.451,"body":"and problems and doing whatever."},{"startTime":613.611,"endTime":619.501,"body":"If everything goes well, the perfect"},{"startTime":613.611,"endTime":619.501,"body":"route through the application, Is the one"},{"startTime":619.501,"endTime":621.201,"body":"that we consider is the most valuable."},{"startTime":621.351,"endTime":624.591,"body":"So let's document every single"},{"startTime":621.351,"endTime":624.591,"body":"one of those as a story."},{"startTime":624.741,"endTime":626.801,"body":"Can we log in for the"},{"startTime":624.741,"endTime":626.801,"body":"first time successfully?"},{"startTime":626.941,"endTime":627.421,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":627.621,"endTime":631.661,"body":"Can we view our current work that"},{"startTime":627.621,"endTime":631.661,"body":"we are currently engaged in as"},{"startTime":631.671,"endTime":635.931,"body":"the main operation, the docket as"},{"startTime":631.671,"endTime":635.931,"body":"our, our, our document that we're"},{"startTime":635.941,"endTime":637.441,"body":"currently working, can we pull it up?"},{"startTime":637.741,"endTime":638.401,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":638.511,"endTime":640.111,"body":"Can we take signatures in it?"},{"startTime":640.301,"endTime":640.791,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":641.001,"endTime":642.621,"body":"Can we submit it when we're done?"},{"startTime":642.771,"endTime":644.311,"body":"And send it to the home office."},{"startTime":644.341,"endTime":644.751,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":644.791,"endTime":645.111,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":645.141,"endTime":648.191,"body":"So I just wrote like four or five,"},{"startTime":645.141,"endTime":648.191,"body":"six different stories , and then"},{"startTime":648.191,"endTime":650.621,"body":"everything else you think of, well,"},{"startTime":648.191,"endTime":650.621,"body":"we got to have a password reset."},{"startTime":650.631,"endTime":652.881,"body":"And we, what happens if only"},{"startTime":650.631,"endTime":652.881,"body":"one signature is filled out?"},{"startTime":652.931,"endTime":654.511,"body":"What happens if no"},{"startTime":652.931,"endTime":654.511,"body":"signatures are filled out?"},{"startTime":654.511,"endTime":657.001,"body":"What happens if the path"},{"startTime":654.511,"endTime":657.001,"body":"to the home office fails?"},{"startTime":657.031,"endTime":658.181,"body":"What happens if you don't have internet?"},{"startTime":658.181,"endTime":660.891,"body":"What, I mean, do you have to do this"},{"startTime":658.181,"endTime":660.891,"body":"operation online, offline, whatever?"},{"startTime":661.221,"endTime":662.211,"body":"There's a million different things."},{"startTime":662.301,"endTime":662.661,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":662.661,"endTime":663.011,"body":"But."},{"startTime":663.161,"endTime":666.341,"body":"That main path of the most value."},{"startTime":666.501,"endTime":669.681,"body":"Let's walk through that workflow"},{"startTime":666.501,"endTime":669.681,"body":"and build that workflow."},{"startTime":669.801,"endTime":672.546,"body":"We when we all used to work in offices,"},{"startTime":669.801,"endTime":672.546,"body":"you would, you would write it on the"},{"startTime":672.546,"endTime":676.931,"body":"whiteboard and also you would like back"},{"startTime":672.546,"endTime":676.931,"body":"in the old, back in the back, in the old"},{"startTime":676.936,"endTime":679.151,"body":"school days, back in the two thousands,"},{"startTime":679.301,"endTime":679.541,"body":"mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":679.666,"endTime":682.636,"body":", single digit number, single digit"},{"startTime":679.666,"endTime":682.636,"body":". You would have, flow documents."},{"startTime":682.666,"endTime":682.756,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":682.966,"endTime":683.186,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":683.206,"endTime":686.546,"body":"Of like how data and how a"},{"startTime":683.206,"endTime":686.546,"body":"business operation is moved."},{"startTime":686.546,"endTime":687.636,"body":"DFDs and whatnot."},{"startTime":687.636,"endTime":687.816,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":687.816,"endTime":688.376,"body":"Stuff like that."},{"startTime":688.376,"endTime":688.536,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":688.536,"endTime":690.396,"body":"I was gonna, I was trying not to say UML."},{"startTime":690.476,"endTime":691.956,"body":"I was trying not to, but I don't know why."},{"startTime":692.106,"endTime":695.896,"body":"The example you just cited in"},{"startTime":692.106,"endTime":695.896,"body":"that you know, in that industry,"},{"startTime":696.046,"endTime":697.936,"body":"that exists in a lot of places."},{"startTime":697.946,"endTime":699.326,"body":"Like, I'll give you an example here."},{"startTime":699.476,"endTime":702.326,"body":"If you're applying for a"},{"startTime":699.476,"endTime":702.326,"body":"mortgage with a bank, right."},{"startTime":702.546,"endTime":704.636,"body":"So you would make your application online."},{"startTime":704.756,"endTime":708.761,"body":"You'd have to create, At least"},{"startTime":704.756,"endTime":708.761,"body":"a log in and then chances are,"},{"startTime":708.761,"endTime":711.551,"body":"they're going to ask you for some"},{"startTime":708.761,"endTime":711.551,"body":"baseline documentation, right?"},{"startTime":711.701,"endTime":715.451,"body":"Which might be things like copy of"},{"startTime":711.701,"endTime":715.451,"body":"a pay stub or a tax return or W2."},{"startTime":715.601,"endTime":715.621,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":715.771,"endTime":719.441,"body":"So same thing get, get all of"},{"startTime":715.771,"endTime":719.441,"body":"those things in the happy path."},{"startTime":719.441,"endTime":719.751,"body":"Really?"},{"startTime":719.751,"endTime":721.691,"body":"It's really the most valuable path, right?"},{"startTime":721.721,"endTime":722.886,"body":"If you get those in."},{"startTime":723.096,"endTime":726.236,"body":"Then your application"},{"startTime":723.096,"endTime":726.236,"body":"review process starts."},{"startTime":726.536,"endTime":728.666,"body":"But if you miss one of those,"},{"startTime":726.536,"endTime":728.666,"body":"now you're in the exception."},{"startTime":728.996,"endTime":729.226,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":729.236,"endTime":729.446,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":729.466,"endTime":733.516,"body":"And they can, these are all valid still,"},{"startTime":729.466,"endTime":733.516,"body":"but they can follow a little bit later."},{"startTime":733.756,"endTime":734.476,"body":"That's all we're saying."},{"startTime":734.626,"endTime":736.456,"body":"The path through the"},{"startTime":734.626,"endTime":736.456,"body":"application, this category."},{"startTime":736.606,"endTime":737.316,"body":"Of workflow."},{"startTime":737.326,"endTime":743.946,"body":"Why we started with this one is because"},{"startTime":737.326,"endTime":743.946,"body":"there clearly is a highest value path"},{"startTime":744.016,"endTime":748.226,"body":"through the application, but back in the"},{"startTime":744.016,"endTime":748.226,"body":"day, way back in the project management"},{"startTime":748.236,"endTime":749.636,"body":"day, they would call this critical path."},{"startTime":749.726,"endTime":750.136,"body":"Like what is it?"},{"startTime":750.466,"endTime":753.796,"body":"They would make little work breakdowns"},{"startTime":750.466,"endTime":753.796,"body":"and they would identify the critical path."},{"startTime":754.006,"endTime":756.826,"body":"These are things that are highest"},{"startTime":754.006,"endTime":756.826,"body":"value, but it's regardless of what"},{"startTime":756.826,"endTime":760.086,"body":"it is called , it is the highest"},{"startTime":756.826,"endTime":760.086,"body":"value flow through the application."},{"startTime":760.376,"endTime":762.406,"body":"So this would be a way to start with."},{"startTime":762.556,"endTime":766.306,"body":"What is my has flow and then each"},{"startTime":762.556,"endTime":766.306,"body":"of those steps, maybe we start by"},{"startTime":766.316,"endTime":768.026,"body":"breaking that into an individual story."},{"startTime":768.176,"endTime":768.666,"body":"Perfect."},{"startTime":768.826,"endTime":769.266,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":769.396,"endTime":770.086,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":770.236,"endTime":770.526,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":770.536,"endTime":773.366,"body":"So, we're already talking about"},{"startTime":770.536,"endTime":773.366,"body":"paths through the application."},{"startTime":773.516,"endTime":776.626,"body":"And the workflow that you take as you"},{"startTime":773.516,"endTime":776.626,"body":"take a path through the application."},{"startTime":776.776,"endTime":781.296,"body":"The other way to consider is when you"},{"startTime":776.776,"endTime":781.296,"body":"log in and you're a different type of"},{"startTime":781.446,"endTime":786.306,"body":"persona using the software, like the"},{"startTime":781.446,"endTime":786.306,"body":"easiest one is the old school windows"},{"startTime":786.316,"endTime":789.886,"body":"of remember when windows had guest"},{"startTime":786.316,"endTime":789.886,"body":"accounts, you'd log in as a guest, right?"},{"startTime":790.166,"endTime":791.976,"body":"So you're going to log"},{"startTime":790.166,"endTime":791.976,"body":"in as an administrator."},{"startTime":792.126,"endTime":795.436,"body":"You're going to log in as a regular user"},{"startTime":792.126,"endTime":795.436,"body":"who has a user account on the computer,"},{"startTime":795.446,"endTime":799.166,"body":"or you're going to log in as a guest, the"},{"startTime":795.446,"endTime":799.166,"body":"accounts guests before they got ready."},{"startTime":799.166,"endTime":799.786,"body":"Well, yeah."},{"startTime":799.976,"endTime":801.576,"body":"And T actually started all that stuff."},{"startTime":801.726,"endTime":802.286,"body":"I remember that."},{"startTime":802.326,"endTime":802.986,"body":"The guest account."},{"startTime":803.026,"endTime":805.056,"body":"And then you always like, Oh,"},{"startTime":803.026,"endTime":805.056,"body":"disable the guest account."},{"startTime":805.246,"endTime":809.216,"body":"But it's, it's a great illustration"},{"startTime":805.246,"endTime":809.216,"body":"of, a role-based access."},{"startTime":809.336,"endTime":811.676,"body":"Now that our, RBAC is a"},{"startTime":809.336,"endTime":811.676,"body":"normal thing in that yeah."},{"startTime":811.736,"endTime":815.871,"body":"These days, or IDM or whatever, I dm,"},{"startTime":811.736,"endTime":815.871,"body":"there's lots of acronyms for this now,"},{"startTime":815.876,"endTime":821.201,"body":"but the point is by the role that's"},{"startTime":815.876,"endTime":821.201,"body":"logging in that user , they have specific"},{"startTime":821.201,"endTime":823.541,"body":"things that they're allowed to do."},{"startTime":823.691,"endTime":827.101,"body":"So you could split your"},{"startTime":823.691,"endTime":827.101,"body":"story by persona for sure."},{"startTime":827.101,"endTime":829.021,"body":"And in e commerce you"},{"startTime":827.101,"endTime":829.021,"body":"have that too, right?"},{"startTime":829.051,"endTime":831.211,"body":"You can be a guest user,"},{"startTime":829.051,"endTime":831.211,"body":"go browse, and then."},{"startTime":831.361,"endTime":836.011,"body":"Before you buy it, they make you create a"},{"startTime":831.361,"endTime":836.011,"body":"profile, but until then you could do all"},{"startTime":836.011,"endTime":837.741,"body":"of these things, searching, et cetera."},{"startTime":837.771,"endTime":838.041,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":838.041,"endTime":841.841,"body":"For a freemium versus paid users,"},{"startTime":838.041,"endTime":841.841,"body":"another persona based split."},{"startTime":841.951,"endTime":842.751,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":842.861,"endTime":843.521,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":843.841,"endTime":845.751,"body":"Admin user is another one, right?"},{"startTime":845.831,"endTime":848.051,"body":"As a user versus an, as an admin user."},{"startTime":848.201,"endTime":852.341,"body":"So there are lots of different ways"},{"startTime":848.201,"endTime":852.341,"body":"to figure out the role of a persona"},{"startTime":852.381,"endTime":856.781,"body":"and then Focus your story around the"},{"startTime":852.381,"endTime":856.781,"body":"journey or the experience of that role."},{"startTime":856.801,"endTime":857.021,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":857.291,"endTime":859.831,"body":"And in parallel, you can"},{"startTime":857.291,"endTime":859.831,"body":"flesh out the other stories."},{"startTime":859.891,"endTime":863.411,"body":"Maybe, maybe not like detail out, but you"},{"startTime":859.891,"endTime":863.411,"body":"could say, well, these are placeholders"},{"startTime":863.411,"endTime":864.891,"body":"for stories that we'll take care of later."},{"startTime":864.921,"endTime":865.171,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":865.321,"endTime":866.431,"body":"Yeah, this is a great one."},{"startTime":866.441,"endTime":867.591,"body":"I mean, you could do a lot."},{"startTime":867.611,"endTime":871.951,"body":"Like if you combine the previous"},{"startTime":867.611,"endTime":871.951,"body":"category, Of the workflow value"},{"startTime":871.951,"endTime":874.581,"body":"through the system with the roles."},{"startTime":874.731,"endTime":877.961,"body":"I mean, now you can really get granular"},{"startTime":874.731,"endTime":877.961,"body":"if you, if you need to, I don't know"},{"startTime":877.961,"endTime":880.361,"body":"if you need to, I don't know if your"},{"startTime":877.961,"endTime":880.361,"body":"system has, I think it's contextual."},{"startTime":880.361,"endTime":881.371,"body":"It depends on your application."},{"startTime":881.501,"endTime":882.391,"body":"You might not have roles."},{"startTime":882.411,"endTime":884.451,"body":"Everyone might be one"},{"startTime":882.411,"endTime":884.451,"body":"one user or whatever."},{"startTime":884.771,"endTime":889.751,"body":"But now you have a you know, a"},{"startTime":884.771,"endTime":889.751,"body":"potential factoring of different stories"},{"startTime":889.981,"endTime":892.061,"body":"so personally in my backlog."},{"startTime":892.211,"endTime":894.611,"body":"I break everything by persona."},{"startTime":894.761,"endTime":897.461,"body":"I have a persona, and it goes on a story."},{"startTime":897.611,"endTime":897.731,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":897.791,"endTime":902.621,"body":"So if we were to do the same functionality"},{"startTime":897.791,"endTime":902.621,"body":"for different personas, theoretically"},{"startTime":902.771,"endTime":906.761,"body":"I would break it into multiple"},{"startTime":902.771,"endTime":906.761,"body":"stories, servicing different personas."},{"startTime":906.971,"endTime":909.941,"body":"This persona sees it like this,"},{"startTime":906.971,"endTime":909.941,"body":"this persona sees it like this."},{"startTime":910.091,"endTime":913.931,"body":"In, in the case that that, that"},{"startTime":910.091,"endTime":913.931,"body":"a feature actually has different"},{"startTime":913.931,"endTime":916.061,"body":"views for the different personas."},{"startTime":916.061,"endTime":919.001,"body":"I would not do that if it was like,"},{"startTime":916.061,"endTime":919.001,"body":"well, we're mainly building this."},{"startTime":919.151,"endTime":923.661,"body":"For system users, but admins and"},{"startTime":919.151,"endTime":923.661,"body":"guests and whoever else that logs"},{"startTime":923.661,"endTime":925.601,"body":"in the system, they're going to"},{"startTime":923.661,"endTime":925.601,"body":"see the exact same experience."},{"startTime":925.611,"endTime":927.711,"body":"So then I wouldn't, I wouldn't break it."},{"startTime":927.741,"endTime":930.941,"body":"You know, I would, I would specify the"},{"startTime":927.741,"endTime":930.941,"body":"main persona we're building it for and"},{"startTime":930.941,"endTime":933.081,"body":"then everyone else gets it as a bonus."},{"startTime":933.231,"endTime":934.491,"body":"So that's the highest value one again."},{"startTime":934.491,"endTime":935.111,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":935.451,"endTime":935.821,"body":"Makes sense."},{"startTime":935.871,"endTime":938.581,"body":"But if we were building something"},{"startTime":935.871,"endTime":938.581,"body":"specifically for admins oh, an"},{"startTime":938.591,"endTime":944.031,"body":"administrator needs to be able to see all"},{"startTime":938.591,"endTime":944.031,"body":"the see and manage all the new guest users"},{"startTime":944.031,"endTime":946.691,"body":"that go with their accounts or whatever."},{"startTime":946.701,"endTime":952.251,"body":"I've built systems before where you"},{"startTime":946.701,"endTime":952.251,"body":"declare a customer admin and then they"},{"startTime":952.281,"endTime":956.921,"body":"can like, it's an admin that works at"},{"startTime":952.281,"endTime":956.921,"body":"the customer site and then they can have"},{"startTime":956.921,"endTime":958.831,"body":"administrative functions over users."},{"startTime":959.101,"endTime":961.111,"body":"That live in their system."},{"startTime":961.351,"endTime":965.101,"body":"So it was like, I would build stuff for"},{"startTime":961.351,"endTime":965.101,"body":"the admin that the users would never see."},{"startTime":965.251,"endTime":971.121,"body":"So I would create a persona field in my"},{"startTime":965.251,"endTime":971.121,"body":"ALM tool, whatever ALM tool you're using."},{"startTime":971.121,"endTime":974.381,"body":"They're all pretty flexible to be able"},{"startTime":971.121,"endTime":974.381,"body":"to do, to create custom fields like this."},{"startTime":974.431,"endTime":979.141,"body":"I, I am particularly using Jira,"},{"startTime":974.431,"endTime":979.141,"body":"but you know, you can use any tool."},{"startTime":979.291,"endTime":980.531,"body":"I mean, maybe a tool is good."},{"startTime":980.611,"endTime":981.101,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":981.131,"endTime":981.491,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":981.551,"endTime":982.641,"body":"I mean, yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":982.661,"endTime":983.601,"body":"Most tools allow that."},{"startTime":983.831,"endTime":984.921,"body":"It's not all of them these days."},{"startTime":985.071,"endTime":987.991,"body":"So that's a good way to do it because"},{"startTime":985.071,"endTime":987.991,"body":"then when you're discussing the"},{"startTime":987.991,"endTime":992.571,"body":"details of that story, You can kind of"},{"startTime":987.991,"endTime":992.571,"body":"empathize with that role, the persona"},{"startTime":992.571,"endTime":994.561,"body":"and say, as you know, so and so."},{"startTime":994.711,"endTime":997.791,"body":"So that's a good way to kind of"},{"startTime":994.711,"endTime":997.791,"body":"really deep dive into the story."},{"startTime":997.831,"endTime":1001.041,"body":"And now it's focused around one"},{"startTime":997.831,"endTime":1001.041,"body":"persona and not all and sundry."},{"startTime":1001.111,"endTime":1002.301,"body":"And bonus points."},{"startTime":1002.571,"endTime":1006.271,"body":"If you actually have a persona"},{"startTime":1002.571,"endTime":1006.271,"body":"slick sheet I don't say slick"},{"startTime":1006.271,"endTime":1007.791,"body":"sheet a lot on the podcast, but I."},{"startTime":1007.986,"endTime":1009.976,"body":"I like, I like that term, Slick Sheet."},{"startTime":1010.236,"endTime":1013.696,"body":"If you have a template that tells"},{"startTime":1010.236,"endTime":1013.696,"body":"you about that persona then new,"},{"startTime":1013.886,"endTime":1015.416,"body":"mainly it's for new team members."},{"startTime":1015.416,"endTime":1019.616,"body":"Cause mostly if you have those persona"},{"startTime":1015.416,"endTime":1019.616,"body":"templates and your team helped create"},{"startTime":1019.616,"endTime":1023.576,"body":"them or were participated in some way"},{"startTime":1019.616,"endTime":1023.576,"body":"then, They're probably going to know"},{"startTime":1023.576,"endTime":1025.526,"body":"right away when they see the persona name."},{"startTime":1025.676,"endTime":1028.776,"body":"But if you have new team members who on"},{"startTime":1025.676,"endTime":1028.776,"body":"board and they see a story is for this new"},{"startTime":1028.776,"endTime":1032.246,"body":"persona, they can go look at your slick"},{"startTime":1028.776,"endTime":1032.246,"body":"sheet and say, Oh, this is what they do."},{"startTime":1032.396,"endTime":1033.456,"body":"This is a normal pain points."},{"startTime":1033.626,"endTime":1036.456,"body":"This is the jobs you're trying to,"},{"startTime":1033.626,"endTime":1036.456,"body":"to, to accomplish along the way."},{"startTime":1036.726,"endTime":1040.766,"body":"And then just a quick 30, 45"},{"startTime":1036.726,"endTime":1040.766,"body":"seconds reading the points on"},{"startTime":1040.766,"endTime":1043.646,"body":"the sheet, what matters, what,"},{"startTime":1040.766,"endTime":1043.646,"body":"what really matters to that user."},{"startTime":1043.676,"endTime":1046.426,"body":"And then, and then they're on"},{"startTime":1043.676,"endTime":1046.426,"body":"board with the rest of the team."},{"startTime":1046.706,"endTime":1047.566,"body":"So that's a."},{"startTime":1047.716,"endTime":1048.736,"body":"A different podcast."},{"startTime":1048.736,"endTime":1051.646,"body":"I think you get bonuses points if"},{"startTime":1048.736,"endTime":1051.646,"body":"you can work with your customer and"},{"startTime":1051.646,"endTime":1055.936,"body":"use the actual name if they're okay"},{"startTime":1051.646,"endTime":1055.936,"body":"with it, right as your persona name."},{"startTime":1056.172,"endTime":1060.911,"body":"Then, yeah, because people can just"},{"startTime":1056.172,"endTime":1060.911,"body":"in everyday conversations say John"},{"startTime":1060.911,"endTime":1064.171,"body":"or Mary or whatever, and there's a"},{"startTime":1060.911,"endTime":1064.171,"body":"real John who's the persona, right?"},{"startTime":1064.321,"endTime":1065.601,"body":"I said, that's a different podcast."},{"startTime":1065.611,"endTime":1070.671,"body":"So that is that is a way to split"},{"startTime":1065.611,"endTime":1070.671,"body":"user stories is by role and persona."},{"startTime":1070.821,"endTime":1074.501,"body":"What about by the borders"},{"startTime":1070.821,"endTime":1074.501,"body":"of the system or technology?"},{"startTime":1074.551,"endTime":1078.587,"body":"Like I I spent a good deal of my career"},{"startTime":1074.551,"endTime":1078.587,"body":"working with systems that had like"},{"startTime":1078.927,"endTime":1080.837,"body":"web applications that had a database."},{"startTime":1080.837,"endTime":1080.877,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1081.027,"endTime":1082.217,"body":"At the core of the system."},{"startTime":1082.547,"endTime":1086.337,"body":"So we either would and you"},{"startTime":1082.547,"endTime":1086.337,"body":"know, API and the API access."},{"startTime":1086.667,"endTime":1093.617,"body":"So either the customer's API or our"},{"startTime":1086.667,"endTime":1093.617,"body":"API or our database or any of the,"},{"startTime":1093.687,"endTime":1097.302,"body":"any of the divisions that the user"},{"startTime":1093.687,"endTime":1097.302,"body":"interface, any of the divisions."},{"startTime":1097.452,"endTime":1101.582,"body":"Of the system or technology, because"},{"startTime":1097.452,"endTime":1101.582,"body":"also you have, in a modern web"},{"startTime":1101.592,"endTime":1105.412,"body":"application system, you might have"},{"startTime":1101.592,"endTime":1105.412,"body":"a mobile application and the mobile"},{"startTime":1105.412,"endTime":1110.822,"body":"application is looking to hit a API that"},{"startTime":1105.412,"endTime":1110.822,"body":"is served by one of your web servers"},{"startTime":1111.022,"endTime":1112.372,"body":"that communicates with the database."},{"startTime":1112.522,"endTime":1116.012,"body":"So there, there's several different"},{"startTime":1112.522,"endTime":1116.012,"body":"pieces of technology in the system"},{"startTime":1116.322,"endTime":1119.612,"body":"and potentially splitting a story"},{"startTime":1116.322,"endTime":1119.612,"body":"to say, well, we want to create a"},{"startTime":1119.612,"endTime":1124.722,"body":"new APA endpoint that the mobile"},{"startTime":1119.612,"endTime":1124.722,"body":"clients can hit in order to retrieve"},{"startTime":1124.722,"endTime":1125.922,"body":"a piece of information or whatever."},{"startTime":1126.072,"endTime":1130.232,"body":"And where normally I would say, well,"},{"startTime":1126.072,"endTime":1130.232,"body":"you want a vertical slice this work."},{"startTime":1130.502,"endTime":1130.802,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1130.962,"endTime":1134.422,"body":"People will say, wow, I got to add"},{"startTime":1130.962,"endTime":1134.422,"body":"a new database table and then I"},{"startTime":1134.422,"endTime":1137.696,"body":"got to add this new API endpoint"},{"startTime":1134.422,"endTime":1137.696,"body":"and it's got to have all the data."},{"startTime":1137.846,"endTime":1141.286,"body":"Particular responses or non responses"},{"startTime":1137.846,"endTime":1141.286,"body":"or successes, failures or whatever."},{"startTime":1141.436,"endTime":1143.406,"body":"And also I've got to edit"},{"startTime":1141.436,"endTime":1143.406,"body":"my mobile applications."},{"startTime":1143.606,"endTime":1145.606,"body":"This is, there's no way we can"},{"startTime":1143.606,"endTime":1145.606,"body":"have this done in one Sprint."},{"startTime":1145.666,"endTime":1146.476,"body":"There's no way."},{"startTime":1146.626,"endTime":1147.426,"body":"Yeah, it's not true."},{"startTime":1147.576,"endTime":1150.036,"body":"You can't have it all done in one Sprint."},{"startTime":1150.186,"endTime":1153.036,"body":"But you can have working"},{"startTime":1150.186,"endTime":1153.036,"body":"software that gives you a"},{"startTime":1153.046,"endTime":1154.556,"body":"sliver of functionality, right?"},{"startTime":1154.616,"endTime":1158.026,"body":"So you don't have to deliver"},{"startTime":1154.616,"endTime":1158.026,"body":"everything, first of all, on that API."},{"startTime":1158.056,"endTime":1159.256,"body":"You can mock out some stuff."},{"startTime":1159.516,"endTime":1162.276,"body":"And then you can just say here"},{"startTime":1159.516,"endTime":1162.276,"body":"are all the stubs, but here's the"},{"startTime":1162.276,"endTime":1163.766,"body":"valid stuff that we're working on."},{"startTime":1164.006,"endTime":1168.896,"body":"Go test that and then a separate story"},{"startTime":1164.006,"endTime":1168.896,"body":"could unravel another stub, right?"},{"startTime":1168.986,"endTime":1171.716,"body":"So you could do it that way"},{"startTime":1168.986,"endTime":1171.716,"body":"incrementally, sort of like just"},{"startTime":1172.036,"endTime":1174.386,"body":"simulating stuff in a payload, right?"},{"startTime":1174.416,"endTime":1178.196,"body":"You're only working on a piece of it, not"},{"startTime":1174.416,"endTime":1178.196,"body":"the entire payload, especially in some"},{"startTime":1178.196,"endTime":1179.906,"body":"cases where the payload could be huge."},{"startTime":1180.101,"endTime":1180.841,"body":"You have to do it all."},{"startTime":1180.991,"endTime":1183.371,"body":"So that's a, that's a"},{"startTime":1180.991,"endTime":1183.371,"body":"good way to split things."},{"startTime":1183.421,"endTime":1183.711,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1183.751,"endTime":1187.061,"body":"The interesting thing to this is a"},{"startTime":1183.751,"endTime":1187.061,"body":"lot of times when I, when I bring"},{"startTime":1187.061,"endTime":1189.131,"body":"this up as a, Product manager."},{"startTime":1189.281,"endTime":1195.531,"body":"The team, the team has never considered"},{"startTime":1189.281,"endTime":1195.531,"body":"the fact that in the version that we demo"},{"startTime":1195.531,"endTime":1198.161,"body":"we can just fake the response okay, so,"},{"startTime":1198.181,"endTime":1201.761,"body":"so I'm going to add this new"},{"startTime":1198.181,"endTime":1201.761,"body":"API endpoint and all the mobile"},{"startTime":1201.761,"endTime":1202.971,"body":"applications are going to hit it."},{"startTime":1203.191,"endTime":1207.381,"body":"Maybe it brings back your customer profile"},{"startTime":1203.191,"endTime":1207.381,"body":"information and  Amazon, for example."},{"startTime":1207.381,"endTime":1207.531,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1207.531,"endTime":1210.311,"body":"If I'm, if I'm rebuilding"},{"startTime":1207.531,"endTime":1210.311,"body":"the Amazon app, Brian and Ohm"},{"startTime":1210.321,"endTime":1211.561,"body":"software development company."},{"startTime":1211.711,"endTime":1214.691,"body":"Purchasing app, which is"},{"startTime":1211.711,"endTime":1214.691,"body":"a clone of the Amazon app."},{"startTime":1214.841,"endTime":1216.831,"body":"And you're going to say, okay, well,"},{"startTime":1214.841,"endTime":1216.831,"body":"you're going to hit this end point."},{"startTime":1216.831,"endTime":1219.701,"body":"And it's going to bring you back all the"},{"startTime":1216.831,"endTime":1219.701,"body":"orders that you've put into our system."},{"startTime":1219.851,"endTime":1222.001,"body":"That's the API endpoint and API endpoint."},{"startTime":1222.341,"endTime":1226.151,"body":"So in the same sprint, we're going"},{"startTime":1222.341,"endTime":1226.151,"body":"to go up with an API endpoint that,"},{"startTime":1226.231,"endTime":1227.711,"body":"that brings back all the orders."},{"startTime":1227.941,"endTime":1230.011,"body":"For the specified mobile user."},{"startTime":1230.161,"endTime":1233.491,"body":"And then in the mobile application,"},{"startTime":1230.161,"endTime":1233.491,"body":"it has to call the endpoint"},{"startTime":1233.641,"endTime":1236.151,"body":"and pass your, I authentication"},{"startTime":1233.641,"endTime":1236.151,"body":"user id, something like that."},{"startTime":1236.151,"endTime":1236.211,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1236.541,"endTime":1239.961,"body":"So mobile application has to"},{"startTime":1236.541,"endTime":1239.961,"body":"pass your authentication user id."},{"startTime":1240.111,"endTime":1243.711,"body":"API endpoint has to be enhanced"},{"startTime":1240.111,"endTime":1243.711,"body":"to have this new endpoint"},{"startTime":1243.716,"endTime":1244.611,"body":"to bring back your orders."},{"startTime":1244.821,"endTime":1247.701,"body":"The database has to maybe"},{"startTime":1244.821,"endTime":1247.701,"body":"there's auditing tables."},{"startTime":1247.701,"endTime":1251.211,"body":"I don't know, maybe the database needs to"},{"startTime":1247.701,"endTime":1251.211,"body":"be enhanced to somehow handle for this."},{"startTime":1251.211,"endTime":1251.301,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1251.641,"endTime":1253.981,"body":"So potentially there's three different"},{"startTime":1251.641,"endTime":1253.981,"body":"stories about three different."},{"startTime":1254.251,"endTime":1256.481,"body":"Three different pieces of"},{"startTime":1254.251,"endTime":1256.481,"body":"technology that have to be modified."},{"startTime":1256.631,"endTime":1261.461,"body":"And you can say, well Brian, why would you"},{"startTime":1256.631,"endTime":1261.461,"body":"break your stories along technology lines?"},{"startTime":1261.611,"endTime":1265.838,"body":"So the mobile application gets a"},{"startTime":1261.611,"endTime":1265.838,"body":"story, the API, web service gets"},{"startTime":1265.838,"endTime":1268.468,"body":"a story and the database gets a"},{"startTime":1265.838,"endTime":1268.468,"body":"story for this new table or store"},{"startTime":1268.468,"endTime":1269.688,"body":"procedure, whatever you need to do."},{"startTime":1269.838,"endTime":1273.738,"body":"When you do it that way usually"},{"startTime":1269.838,"endTime":1273.738,"body":"I will say, well, the development"},{"startTime":1273.738,"endTime":1274.898,"body":"team should swarm on things."},{"startTime":1275.048,"endTime":1278.678,"body":"But in this particular case, the person"},{"startTime":1275.048,"endTime":1278.678,"body":"who does database development, the"},{"startTime":1278.678,"endTime":1280.428,"body":"person who does the mobile development."},{"startTime":1280.733,"endTime":1283.373,"body":"They are likely not going"},{"startTime":1280.733,"endTime":1283.373,"body":"to be the same people."},{"startTime":1283.523,"endTime":1285.013,"body":"Yeah, different skill sets to begin with."},{"startTime":1285.023,"endTime":1289.543,"body":"They most likely will be, either separate"},{"startTime":1285.023,"endTime":1289.543,"body":"teams, definitely separate developers."},{"startTime":1289.583,"endTime":1289.773,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1290.113,"endTime":1292.293,"body":"Again, just my experience, maybe"},{"startTime":1290.113,"endTime":1292.293,"body":"there are some full stack people"},{"startTime":1292.293,"endTime":1295.693,"body":"who do mobile application, web"},{"startTime":1292.293,"endTime":1295.693,"body":"services, and database design."},{"startTime":1295.703,"endTime":1298.258,"body":"Maybe there are some people out there that"},{"startTime":1295.703,"endTime":1298.258,"body":"will be like, no, I totally do all that."},{"startTime":1298.408,"endTime":1300.708,"body":"Good for you,  you're"},{"startTime":1298.408,"endTime":1300.708,"body":"in the minority as well."},{"startTime":1300.708,"endTime":1302.928,"body":"Also, can you get all"},{"startTime":1300.708,"endTime":1302.928,"body":"of those things done?"},{"startTime":1303.238,"endTime":1303.498,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1303.498,"endTime":1303.578,"body":"Mr."},{"startTime":1303.728,"endTime":1305.078,"body":"Hero, developer in one sprint."},{"startTime":1305.228,"endTime":1307.488,"body":"So that's another reason"},{"startTime":1305.228,"endTime":1307.488,"body":"why you'd want to split it."},{"startTime":1307.638,"endTime":1309.188,"body":"But I would definitely split this up."},{"startTime":1309.318,"endTime":1313.298,"body":"Where I started down the road of this"},{"startTime":1309.318,"endTime":1313.298,"body":"item where people don't consider is."},{"startTime":1313.448,"endTime":1313.728,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1313.728,"endTime":1318.478,"body":"Well, my database team doesn't have"},{"startTime":1313.728,"endTime":1318.478,"body":"bandwidth or my, you know web services"},{"startTime":1318.478,"endTime":1319.768,"body":"team doesn't have bandwidth right now."},{"startTime":1320.048,"endTime":1323.998,"body":"My mobile, my mobile team can add the"},{"startTime":1320.048,"endTime":1323.998,"body":"button or the screen and the compromise"},{"startTime":1323.998,"endTime":1328.048,"body":"will be, I'll add the endpoint and"},{"startTime":1323.998,"endTime":1328.048,"body":"it'll just give you back dummy data."},{"startTime":1328.328,"endTime":1330.308,"body":"It'll give you back the same 10 orders."},{"startTime":1330.378,"endTime":1331.498,"body":"No matter who you are."},{"startTime":1331.728,"endTime":1334.198,"body":"What you are brand new"},{"startTime":1331.728,"endTime":1334.198,"body":"user, never had an order."},{"startTime":1334.478,"endTime":1335.968,"body":"A user that has hundreds of orders."},{"startTime":1335.988,"endTime":1336.648,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1336.868,"endTime":1341.378,"body":"You hit the new API endpoint and you get"},{"startTime":1336.868,"endTime":1341.378,"body":"like the same 10 stock grouping of order."},{"startTime":1341.408,"endTime":1342.408,"body":"Like that's okay."},{"startTime":1342.538,"endTime":1343.398,"body":"That's completely okay."},{"startTime":1343.398,"endTime":1347.898,"body":"Because I can demonstrate that"},{"startTime":1343.398,"endTime":1347.898,"body":"real live in, in production."},{"startTime":1347.948,"endTime":1350.838,"body":"I can demonstrate that and show"},{"startTime":1347.948,"endTime":1350.838,"body":"people, this is what the new"},{"startTime":1350.848,"endTime":1351.678,"body":"feature is going to look like."},{"startTime":1351.993,"endTime":1355.283,"body":"Please give me feedback and they can give"},{"startTime":1351.993,"endTime":1355.283,"body":"me, even though it's not their orders,"},{"startTime":1355.433,"endTime":1360.553,"body":"they can give me the feedback I need"},{"startTime":1355.433,"endTime":1360.553,"body":"to go back to the backlog to say, okay,"},{"startTime":1360.703,"endTime":1362.483,"body":"you just saw what we're about to do."},{"startTime":1362.633,"endTime":1365.953,"body":"It's mock up data, but it was enough"},{"startTime":1362.633,"endTime":1365.953,"body":"for them to say they didn't like this"},{"startTime":1365.953,"endTime":1367.543,"body":"or they wanted more of this or whatever."},{"startTime":1367.793,"endTime":1369.403,"body":"Sequencing of it may be or whatever."},{"startTime":1369.433,"endTime":1370.493,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1370.643,"endTime":1373.983,"body":"So we covered the workflow"},{"startTime":1370.643,"endTime":1373.983,"body":"through the system via value."},{"startTime":1374.123,"endTime":1377.983,"body":"We covered the workflow through the"},{"startTime":1374.123,"endTime":1377.983,"body":"system via persona or role based."},{"startTime":1378.133,"endTime":1381.533,"body":"And we covered , the workflow through"},{"startTime":1378.133,"endTime":1381.533,"body":"the system with regard to the borders"},{"startTime":1381.553,"endTime":1384.273,"body":"of technology spaces , or systems"},{"startTime":1384.533,"endTime":1390.623,"body":"another more broad general way is if"},{"startTime":1384.533,"endTime":1390.623,"body":"you're talking about stories and your"},{"startTime":1390.623,"endTime":1395.953,"body":"stories and or acceptance criteria have"},{"startTime":1390.623,"endTime":1395.953,"body":"a bunch of And ors inside of it, that"},{"startTime":1396.013,"endTime":1398.463,"body":"is a good way to break up your story."},{"startTime":1398.463,"endTime":1404.703,"body":"If you see a bunch of ands like as, as"},{"startTime":1398.463,"endTime":1404.703,"body":"a podcast listener, I want to easily"},{"startTime":1404.703,"endTime":1406.613,"body":"be able to download all my podcasts."},{"startTime":1406.763,"endTime":1411.373,"body":"So that I can listen to them and so I"},{"startTime":1406.763,"endTime":1411.373,"body":"can read the transcription and so I can"},{"startTime":1411.373,"endTime":1415.113,"body":"whatever like if you have a bunch of"},{"startTime":1411.373,"endTime":1415.113,"body":"ands in there, you probably have a good"},{"startTime":1415.253,"endTime":1419.983,"body":"trigger to say, Oh, maybe I can just"},{"startTime":1415.253,"endTime":1419.983,"body":"copy this and paste it out to another"},{"startTime":1419.983,"endTime":1422.543,"body":"story and take the easy route, right?"},{"startTime":1422.583,"endTime":1427.733,"body":"Another super easy example of this"},{"startTime":1422.583,"endTime":1427.733,"body":"is anytime you're talking about, I"},{"startTime":1427.733,"endTime":1428.793,"body":"already brought up database, right?"},{"startTime":1428.843,"endTime":1431.223,"body":"Anytime you talk about  interacting"},{"startTime":1428.843,"endTime":1431.223,"body":"with the database, you"},{"startTime":1431.233,"endTime":1433.068,"body":"immediately have the CRUD command."},{"startTime":1433.218,"endTime":1436.978,"body":"Operation the create, read, update, delete"},{"startTime":1433.218,"endTime":1436.978,"body":"operation right there in front of you."},{"startTime":1436.978,"endTime":1437.238,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1437.388,"endTime":1442.738,"body":"So there's some easy splits"},{"startTime":1437.388,"endTime":1442.738,"body":"with and or operations."},{"startTime":1442.888,"endTime":1444.088,"body":"I fully agree with that."},{"startTime":1444.338,"endTime":1448.938,"body":"So any of these conjugations as"},{"startTime":1444.338,"endTime":1448.938,"body":"well as, and in addition, you'll"},{"startTime":1448.938,"endTime":1451.568,"body":"see a lot of times you won't"},{"startTime":1448.938,"endTime":1451.568,"body":"even necessarily see that in the."},{"startTime":1451.878,"endTime":1456.358,"body":"Title of your user story, but in the"},{"startTime":1451.878,"endTime":1456.358,"body":"description, it would say that, right?"},{"startTime":1456.568,"endTime":1459.268,"body":"I want to X, Y, Z and blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":1459.568,"endTime":1461.028,"body":"So that's a good point."},{"startTime":1461.148,"endTime":1462.778,"body":"This is a really easy lift."},{"startTime":1462.828,"endTime":1466.718,"body":"We, all you have to do is look for"},{"startTime":1462.828,"endTime":1466.718,"body":"those and make sure when you split"},{"startTime":1466.738,"endTime":1468.148,"body":"the story, that it's vertical."},{"startTime":1468.168,"endTime":1472.658,"body":"So in the case of your example of CRUD,"},{"startTime":1468.168,"endTime":1472.658,"body":"I mean, my definition, it is vertical"},{"startTime":1472.678,"endTime":1476.868,"body":"because you can still deliver the C and"},{"startTime":1472.678,"endTime":1476.868,"body":"the R and then deliver the others later."},{"startTime":1477.048,"endTime":1477.458,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1477.608,"endTime":1478.528,"body":"It's still value."},{"startTime":1478.688,"endTime":1482.388,"body":"Typically what I have is started with,"},{"startTime":1478.688,"endTime":1482.388,"body":"with this CRUD operation is I will"},{"startTime":1482.388,"endTime":1487.218,"body":"just have the developers insert into"},{"startTime":1482.388,"endTime":1487.218,"body":"the database, the main records or"},{"startTime":1487.218,"endTime":1490.798,"body":"users or whatever it's going to be and"},{"startTime":1487.218,"endTime":1490.798,"body":"then I'll just give you read access"},{"startTime":1490.978,"endTime":1495.788,"body":"and then the, the C and the U and the"},{"startTime":1490.978,"endTime":1495.788,"body":"D, well, the D usually follows late."},{"startTime":1496.003,"endTime":1497.493,"body":"Whoa, hey, calm down."},{"startTime":1497.643,"endTime":1498.073,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1498.223,"endTime":1498.693,"body":"It's just too much."},{"startTime":1498.873,"endTime":1500.413,"body":"It's a little bit more work deleting."},{"startTime":1500.423,"endTime":1503.413,"body":"We got this thing called referential"},{"startTime":1500.423,"endTime":1503.413,"body":"integrity that gets in the way."},{"startTime":1503.413,"endTime":1507.563,"body":"There's also like, multiple operations"},{"startTime":1503.413,"endTime":1507.563,"body":"also could cover the fact that we have"},{"startTime":1507.563,"endTime":1511.503,"body":"to give a in a user interface we have"},{"startTime":1507.563,"endTime":1511.503,"body":"to give like a the ability to edit a"},{"startTime":1511.503,"endTime":1515.513,"body":"record or whatever like you could look"},{"startTime":1511.503,"endTime":1515.513,"body":"at this rather than like purely database"},{"startTime":1515.513,"endTime":1519.418,"body":"operations, you could look at it and As"},{"startTime":1515.513,"endTime":1519.418,"body":"I got to configure something, set it up"},{"startTime":1519.418,"endTime":1520.918,"body":"for the first time, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1521.068,"endTime":1524.708,"body":"All my examples go back to crud now that"},{"startTime":1521.068,"endTime":1524.708,"body":"we talking about multiple operations."},{"startTime":1524.858,"endTime":1528.268,"body":"I don't know why attaching documents"},{"startTime":1524.858,"endTime":1528.268,"body":"to something that already exists."},{"startTime":1528.288,"endTime":1529.468,"body":"You know, that, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1529.618,"endTime":1530.498,"body":"Multiple operations."},{"startTime":1530.498,"endTime":1531.738,"body":"before we move off of that."},{"startTime":1531.748,"endTime":1535.348,"body":"So often the red flag to look"},{"startTime":1531.748,"endTime":1535.348,"body":"for in stories is the words"},{"startTime":1535.508,"endTime":1537.358,"body":"configure, manage manage."},{"startTime":1537.358,"endTime":1538.418,"body":"What do you mean by manage?"},{"startTime":1538.448,"endTime":1542.178,"body":"Well, we want to be able to read"},{"startTime":1538.448,"endTime":1542.178,"body":"and, and update and, and right."},{"startTime":1542.178,"endTime":1545.668,"body":"So that's manage is just"},{"startTime":1542.178,"endTime":1545.668,"body":"another pseudonym for too many"},{"startTime":1545.698,"endTime":1547.288,"body":"things going on in this story."},{"startTime":1547.438,"endTime":1552.078,"body":"So we were, talking about interfaces"},{"startTime":1547.438,"endTime":1552.078,"body":"slightly and I wanted to bring up"},{"startTime":1552.228,"endTime":1557.408,"body":"splitting things by the complexity of"},{"startTime":1552.228,"endTime":1557.408,"body":"the interface, I've worked in a lot"},{"startTime":1557.408,"endTime":1561.198,"body":"of interfaces that, that, that you"},{"startTime":1557.408,"endTime":1561.198,"body":"bring up one panel and the user would"},{"startTime":1561.198,"endTime":1565.408,"body":"never know there's like 10 API calls"},{"startTime":1561.198,"endTime":1565.408,"body":"happening to build that panel or, or"},{"startTime":1565.408,"endTime":1570.508,"body":"Even applications that seem simple like"},{"startTime":1565.408,"endTime":1570.508,"body":"the chat GPT interface where the chat"},{"startTime":1570.508,"endTime":1574.958,"body":"GPT interface actually is is pretty"},{"startTime":1570.508,"endTime":1574.958,"body":"smart because when you submit something,"},{"startTime":1574.958,"endTime":1577.808,"body":"you're submitting it to the model"},{"startTime":1574.958,"endTime":1577.808,"body":"you're, you're submitting it to the"},{"startTime":1577.808,"endTime":1579.798,"body":"model for an answer and then it adds it."},{"startTime":1579.948,"endTime":1584.558,"body":"To the left on the panel to your"},{"startTime":1579.948,"endTime":1584.558,"body":"series of things that you search for."},{"startTime":1584.558,"endTime":1586.748,"body":"You see that it's actually"},{"startTime":1584.558,"endTime":1586.748,"body":"kind of a smart interface."},{"startTime":1586.778,"endTime":1591.338,"body":"If you think about what's going on in"},{"startTime":1586.778,"endTime":1591.338,"body":"the open AI chat GPT interface, there's"},{"startTime":1591.338,"endTime":1593.298,"body":"a call to summarization happening, right?"},{"startTime":1593.298,"endTime":1595.348,"body":"There's a basic end point,"},{"startTime":1593.298,"endTime":1595.348,"body":"summarization end point."},{"startTime":1595.498,"endTime":1600.968,"body":"There is a saving of the operation"},{"startTime":1595.498,"endTime":1600.968,"body":"in your previous search histories."},{"startTime":1601.218,"endTime":1604.108,"body":"There's a moving the current"},{"startTime":1601.218,"endTime":1604.108,"body":"operation to the top."},{"startTime":1604.258,"endTime":1607.288,"body":"So that the most recent thing is"},{"startTime":1604.258,"endTime":1607.288,"body":"shown at the top, and then there's"},{"startTime":1607.288,"endTime":1610.318,"body":"a saving that for all sessions"},{"startTime":1607.288,"endTime":1610.318,"body":"that you will log into later."},{"startTime":1610.318,"endTime":1611.878,"body":"You'll always see your thing in order."},{"startTime":1612.028,"endTime":1614.198,"body":"There's a lot of things actually"},{"startTime":1612.028,"endTime":1614.198,"body":"happening in that interface."},{"startTime":1614.208,"endTime":1617.628,"body":"if you were to break down stories in that"},{"startTime":1614.208,"endTime":1617.628,"body":"interface, well, obviously you have to,"},{"startTime":1617.888,"endTime":1622.678,"body":"whatever you're typing in now, Has to be"},{"startTime":1617.888,"endTime":1622.678,"body":"sent to the model for, for a response."},{"startTime":1622.738,"endTime":1623.458,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1623.578,"endTime":1625.828,"body":"With whatever parameter"},{"startTime":1623.578,"endTime":1625.828,"body":"settings or whatever you have."},{"startTime":1625.828,"endTime":1628.198,"body":"I don't know what you can"},{"startTime":1625.828,"endTime":1628.198,"body":"configure in their interface."},{"startTime":1628.198,"endTime":1628.768,"body":"I can't remember."},{"startTime":1628.768,"endTime":1632.038,"body":"I think the user can configure very"},{"startTime":1628.768,"endTime":1632.038,"body":"little, but behind the scenes, you've"},{"startTime":1632.128,"endTime":1633.778,"body":"all these weights, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":1633.778,"endTime":1634.018,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1634.018,"endTime":1634.019,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1634.024,"endTime":1635.683,"body":"So, but you don't really"},{"startTime":1634.024,"endTime":1635.683,"body":"have access to that."},{"startTime":1635.683,"endTime":1635.803,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1635.863,"endTime":1636.103,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1636.108,"endTime":1636.463,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1636.493,"endTime":1639.013,"body":"But I mean, you potentially,"},{"startTime":1636.493,"endTime":1639.013,"body":"you could have access to it."},{"startTime":1639.013,"endTime":1640.273,"body":"Well, based on your"},{"startTime":1639.013,"endTime":1640.273,"body":"prompt, you could, yeah."},{"startTime":1640.423,"endTime":1643.383,"body":"That's a, that's a great example"},{"startTime":1640.423,"endTime":1643.383,"body":"because it's not a super complex"},{"startTime":1643.383,"endTime":1646.433,"body":"interface, but it's, I think it's"},{"startTime":1643.383,"endTime":1646.433,"body":"easy enough for people to understand"},{"startTime":1646.433,"endTime":1649.743,"body":"that, Oh, there's actually multiple"},{"startTime":1646.433,"endTime":1649.743,"body":"things happening in this interface."},{"startTime":1649.933,"endTime":1654.343,"body":"The version one could have been something"},{"startTime":1649.933,"endTime":1654.343,"body":"like a, just a prompt that you put in"},{"startTime":1654.343,"endTime":1657.983,"body":"your thing, it gives you the answer,"},{"startTime":1654.343,"endTime":1657.983,"body":"and then you can't You can't, you're"},{"startTime":1657.983,"endTime":1660.863,"body":"going to see it again, like there are"},{"startTime":1657.983,"endTime":1660.863,"body":"no turns in the conversation because"},{"startTime":1661.173,"endTime":1664.593,"body":"really what's happening also is you"},{"startTime":1661.173,"endTime":1664.593,"body":"put in your first prompt, you get a"},{"startTime":1664.593,"endTime":1668.683,"body":"response and then every additional"},{"startTime":1664.593,"endTime":1668.683,"body":"prompt is a turn in the conversation."},{"startTime":1668.903,"endTime":1671.803,"body":"So the model knows that you want to ask"},{"startTime":1668.903,"endTime":1671.803,"body":"about the question you just asked about."},{"startTime":1672.103,"endTime":1672.583,"body":"It could."},{"startTime":1672.733,"endTime":1674.073,"body":"Not let you continue."},{"startTime":1674.313,"endTime":1674.483,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1674.483,"endTime":1678.233,"body":"You have to like, Hey, refresh"},{"startTime":1674.483,"endTime":1678.233,"body":"your screen to do a new prompt."},{"startTime":1678.263,"endTime":1679.673,"body":"Yeah, basically you could do that."},{"startTime":1679.703,"endTime":1683.443,"body":"Like that could be like version one"},{"startTime":1679.703,"endTime":1683.443,"body":"or version one could be like that."},{"startTime":1683.513,"endTime":1686.353,"body":"Plus it doesn't save any of your"},{"startTime":1683.513,"endTime":1686.353,"body":"conversations because we haven't"},{"startTime":1686.353,"endTime":1690.393,"body":"figured out how to store user profile"},{"startTime":1686.353,"endTime":1690.393,"body":"information or stuff like that."},{"startTime":1690.683,"endTime":1693.703,"body":"You know, maybe there's no login, like"},{"startTime":1690.683,"endTime":1693.703,"body":"version one, maybe there's no login."},{"startTime":1693.763,"endTime":1694.083,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1694.233,"endTime":1694.983,"body":"Could be the freemium."},{"startTime":1695.153,"endTime":1695.433,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1695.533,"endTime":1695.723,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1695.793,"endTime":1701.293,"body":"It's not complex,  I've just"},{"startTime":1695.793,"endTime":1701.293,"body":"taken their fairly involved UI"},{"startTime":1701.443,"endTime":1703.933,"body":"and made it extremely simple,"},{"startTime":1704.083,"endTime":1706.153,"body":"what is the main value out of chat GPT?"},{"startTime":1706.203,"endTime":1707.893,"body":"I mean, well, you can put it"},{"startTime":1706.203,"endTime":1707.893,"body":"in the prompt, you can ask a"},{"startTime":1707.893,"endTime":1708.973,"body":"question and you can get an answer."},{"startTime":1709.273,"endTime":1710.193,"body":"That's the main value."},{"startTime":1710.193,"endTime":1711.373,"body":"So prioritize that first."},{"startTime":1711.383,"endTime":1713.853,"body":"So let's prioritize that first"},{"startTime":1711.383,"endTime":1713.853,"body":"and have that be the first story."},{"startTime":1713.883,"endTime":1714.173,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1714.323,"endTime":1715.903,"body":"You know, and then"},{"startTime":1714.323,"endTime":1715.903,"body":"multiple stories as well."},{"startTime":1715.903,"endTime":1717.793,"body":"Like capture all my"},{"startTime":1715.903,"endTime":1717.793,"body":"previous conversations."},{"startTime":1718.033,"endTime":1721.423,"body":"Let me do turns in conversations and"},{"startTime":1718.033,"endTime":1721.423,"body":"then we'd figure out the priority."},{"startTime":1721.573,"endTime":1721.943,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":1722.023,"endTime":1724.153,"body":"Well, I was going to use the"},{"startTime":1722.023,"endTime":1724.153,"body":"Amazon example, but this one's,"},{"startTime":1724.343,"endTime":1725.613,"body":"this one's a pretty good one too."},{"startTime":1725.763,"endTime":1727.233,"body":"Amazon for a complex UI."},{"startTime":1727.383,"endTime":1729.103,"body":"They have a very complex UI, Amazon."},{"startTime":1729.253,"endTime":1729.763,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1729.763,"endTime":1733.553,"body":"So simplifying that you don't necessarily"},{"startTime":1729.763,"endTime":1733.553,"body":"have to do everything up front."},{"startTime":1733.583,"endTime":1737.413,"body":"Simplifying that would simply be"},{"startTime":1733.583,"endTime":1737.413,"body":"search for something and then be"},{"startTime":1737.413,"endTime":1739.493,"body":"able to one click into a cart, right?"},{"startTime":1739.693,"endTime":1744.393,"body":"Forget about the fact that you have"},{"startTime":1739.693,"endTime":1744.393,"body":"bought this before on this date or people"},{"startTime":1744.733,"endTime":1748.813,"body":"also bought this that, that sort of"},{"startTime":1744.733,"endTime":1748.813,"body":"thing can happen in sequential stories."},{"startTime":1748.963,"endTime":1751.223,"body":"Could be much later, depending"},{"startTime":1748.963,"endTime":1751.223,"body":"on where they're prioritized."},{"startTime":1751.293,"endTime":1751.503,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1751.533,"endTime":1754.413,"body":"I was going to say this, there's so"},{"startTime":1751.533,"endTime":1754.413,"body":"much stuff happening in Amazon's app,"},{"startTime":1754.613,"endTime":1758.203,"body":"the functions available in the UI,"},{"startTime":1754.613,"endTime":1758.203,"body":"you could break those off and send"},{"startTime":1758.203,"endTime":1762.103,"body":"those stuff completely different teams"},{"startTime":1758.203,"endTime":1762.103,"body":"I mean, you can probably on Amazon's"},{"startTime":1762.113,"endTime":1765.983,"body":"main screen of all the things you can"},{"startTime":1762.113,"endTime":1765.983,"body":"do, you probably could come up with a"},{"startTime":1765.993,"endTime":1769.433,"body":"dozen different paths and send those"},{"startTime":1765.993,"endTime":1769.433,"body":"to different teams to all develop in"},{"startTime":1769.433,"endTime":1771.773,"body":"parallel just because it's so complicated."},{"startTime":1771.923,"endTime":1772.723,"body":"It's so complex."},{"startTime":1772.723,"endTime":1773.413,"body":"It's not really complicated."},{"startTime":1773.423,"endTime":1775.863,"body":"It's so complex, all the different paths."},{"startTime":1776.013,"endTime":1776.343,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1776.423,"endTime":1779.383,"body":"another interesting one"},{"startTime":1776.423,"endTime":1779.383,"body":"is by business rules."},{"startTime":1779.533,"endTime":1781.169,"body":"Business rules is an interesting one."},{"startTime":1781.169,"endTime":1781.943,"body":"Cause we don't think about."},{"startTime":1782.093,"endTime":1786.763,"body":"The business rules that go into"},{"startTime":1782.093,"endTime":1786.763,"body":"creating software too often."},{"startTime":1786.913,"endTime":1790.963,"body":"There's business rules that meet"},{"startTime":1786.913,"endTime":1790.963,"body":"the eye and there are business rules"},{"startTime":1790.963,"endTime":1795.243,"body":"that are beyond what you can see, and"},{"startTime":1790.963,"endTime":1795.243,"body":"there's usually a lot more of them."},{"startTime":1795.393,"endTime":1798.823,"body":"So a development team needs to"},{"startTime":1795.393,"endTime":1798.823,"body":"understand that if they're creating"},{"startTime":1798.973,"endTime":1800.613,"body":"software both sides, right."},{"startTime":1800.753,"endTime":1803.288,"body":"The user facing side, as"},{"startTime":1800.753,"endTime":1803.288,"body":"well as what's being created."},{"startTime":1803.438,"endTime":1805.728,"body":"Beyond the screen on the other side."},{"startTime":1805.878,"endTime":1809.768,"body":"If they can understand them, what I"},{"startTime":1805.878,"endTime":1809.768,"body":"usually advise people to do here is"},{"startTime":1809.768,"endTime":1814.338,"body":"just get a blank canvas flip chart"},{"startTime":1809.768,"endTime":1814.338,"body":"used to be and just write down what"},{"startTime":1814.338,"endTime":1817.378,"body":"happens right in a simple terms."},{"startTime":1817.388,"endTime":1818.148,"body":"Like it's like."},{"startTime":1818.298,"endTime":1820.828,"body":"Do this, then that yields"},{"startTime":1818.298,"endTime":1820.828,"body":"this, and that's it."},{"startTime":1820.978,"endTime":1824.438,"body":"But if it if you do this other"},{"startTime":1820.978,"endTime":1824.438,"body":"thing instead, then it yields this."},{"startTime":1824.588,"endTime":1827.868,"body":"And based on those, you'd"},{"startTime":1824.588,"endTime":1827.868,"body":"have actions that are taken."},{"startTime":1827.918,"endTime":1830.558,"body":"Now you're in the realm of business rules."},{"startTime":1830.568,"endTime":1835.568,"body":"Those actions happen because again, happy"},{"startTime":1830.568,"endTime":1835.568,"body":"path versus, What if something else fails?"},{"startTime":1835.568,"endTime":1838.608,"body":"So yeah stories by"},{"startTime":1835.568,"endTime":1838.608,"body":"business rules are good."},{"startTime":1838.758,"endTime":1841.778,"body":"As long as you're bearing in mind all"},{"startTime":1838.758,"endTime":1841.778,"body":"the other things we've talked about."},{"startTime":1841.818,"endTime":1844.408,"body":"Vertically sliced, highest"},{"startTime":1841.818,"endTime":1844.408,"body":"value first, right?"},{"startTime":1844.408,"endTime":1847.518,"body":"If you're doing that, and then"},{"startTime":1844.408,"endTime":1847.518,"body":"this, this is also a layer."},{"startTime":1847.518,"endTime":1850.528,"body":"So it's not like you pick any one"},{"startTime":1847.518,"endTime":1850.528,"body":"of the topics we're talking about"},{"startTime":1850.528,"endTime":1852.188,"body":"and say, That's the way to do it."},{"startTime":1852.218,"endTime":1855.058,"body":"That is just one factor"},{"startTime":1852.218,"endTime":1855.058,"body":"in the bigger picture."},{"startTime":1855.208,"endTime":1856.478,"body":"Obviously it depends on your complexity."},{"startTime":1856.488,"endTime":1859.148,"body":"You could be in a simple"},{"startTime":1856.488,"endTime":1859.148,"body":"environment where some of these"},{"startTime":1859.188,"endTime":1860.928,"body":"considerations could be thrown away."},{"startTime":1860.928,"endTime":1863.998,"body":"Maybe you don't have lots and lots"},{"startTime":1860.928,"endTime":1863.998,"body":"of interfaces, then you don't have"},{"startTime":1863.998,"endTime":1867.798,"body":"to worry too much about the interface"},{"startTime":1863.998,"endTime":1867.798,"body":"aspect of what we are discussing here."},{"startTime":1867.948,"endTime":1868.078,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1868.078,"endTime":1871.538,"body":"I'm trying to think of business rules"},{"startTime":1868.078,"endTime":1871.538,"body":"for applications that I've worked on"},{"startTime":1871.588,"endTime":1873.648,"body":"to connect this to a concrete example."},{"startTime":1873.698,"endTime":1877.678,"body":"if we go back to logistics, for"},{"startTime":1873.698,"endTime":1877.678,"body":"example,  truck drivers have a lot of"},{"startTime":1877.678,"endTime":1879.468,"body":"rules that they have to comply with."},{"startTime":1879.498,"endTime":1884.338,"body":"For example, if you're a truck driver"},{"startTime":1879.498,"endTime":1884.338,"body":"and You have a, a electronic logging"},{"startTime":1884.338,"endTime":1885.738,"body":"device plugged into your truck."},{"startTime":1885.888,"endTime":1888.798,"body":"It's interfacing directly"},{"startTime":1885.888,"endTime":1888.798,"body":"with your truck's computer."},{"startTime":1888.948,"endTime":1889.208,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1889.408,"endTime":1892.488,"body":"Your truck's computer will"},{"startTime":1889.408,"endTime":1892.488,"body":"tell it when you're driving."},{"startTime":1892.498,"endTime":1895.548,"body":"Like there's no kind of"},{"startTime":1892.498,"endTime":1895.548,"body":"beat in the process in this."},{"startTime":1895.558,"endTime":1895.968,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1895.968,"endTime":1896.168,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1896.168,"endTime":1898.608,"body":"If your truck is moving, you are driving."},{"startTime":1898.758,"endTime":1904.728,"body":"So one of the business rules is"},{"startTime":1898.758,"endTime":1904.728,"body":"if, if you are in any status other"},{"startTime":1904.728,"endTime":1908.688,"body":"than driving And your truck starts"},{"startTime":1904.728,"endTime":1908.688,"body":"moving change your status to driving"},{"startTime":1908.838,"endTime":1910.558,"body":"automatically change it, right?"},{"startTime":1910.708,"endTime":1912.088,"body":"There's some caveats in there."},{"startTime":1912.088,"endTime":1915.418,"body":"You can be driving around a yard For"},{"startTime":1912.088,"endTime":1915.418,"body":"example, if you're if you're inside"},{"startTime":1915.418,"endTime":1918.078,"body":"of a controlled area, But generally"},{"startTime":1915.418,"endTime":1918.078,"body":"if you're out on the road and it"},{"startTime":1918.078,"endTime":1920.658,"body":"knows this because it has access"},{"startTime":1918.078,"endTime":1920.658,"body":"to your GPS and whatnot, right?"},{"startTime":1920.808,"endTime":1923.218,"body":"and Then it needs to"},{"startTime":1920.808,"endTime":1923.218,"body":"switch you to driving."},{"startTime":1923.258,"endTime":1924.598,"body":"That's a, that's a business rule."},{"startTime":1925.368,"endTime":1929.418,"body":"There are many different reasons you"},{"startTime":1925.368,"endTime":1929.418,"body":"can switch to other statuses, but this"},{"startTime":1929.428,"endTime":1934.898,"body":"one particular action with this one"},{"startTime":1929.428,"endTime":1934.898,"body":"particular trigger is one business rule."},{"startTime":1935.048,"endTime":1938.358,"body":"And we can write that in a story"},{"startTime":1935.048,"endTime":1938.358,"body":"and take care of that as a story."},{"startTime":1938.378,"endTime":1941.188,"body":"And like that, this is a great,"},{"startTime":1938.378,"endTime":1941.188,"body":"a great solid example of where"},{"startTime":1941.188,"endTime":1942.238,"body":"that would live by itself."},{"startTime":1942.488,"endTime":1942.788,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1943.128,"endTime":1946.643,"body":"If you want to say, Oh, Well,"},{"startTime":1943.128,"endTime":1946.643,"body":"I'm I'm done driving for the day."},{"startTime":1946.763,"endTime":1948.553,"body":"I'm I'm on my rest, right?"},{"startTime":1948.703,"endTime":1952.003,"body":"You want to click the status of"},{"startTime":1948.703,"endTime":1952.003,"body":"rest and put yourself in the rest."},{"startTime":1952.213,"endTime":1953.173,"body":"Okay, you can do that."},{"startTime":1953.323,"endTime":1955.853,"body":"The driver wants to put himself"},{"startTime":1953.323,"endTime":1955.853,"body":"into a status of rest to"},{"startTime":1955.853,"endTime":1957.023,"body":"say he's done with his day."},{"startTime":1957.023,"endTime":1958.193,"body":"He's beginning his rest."},{"startTime":1958.493,"endTime":1959.803,"body":"Start the clock or whatever."},{"startTime":1959.803,"endTime":1960.623,"body":"You know, whatever the clock is."},{"startTime":1960.653,"endTime":1962.338,"body":"I can't remember what it is"},{"startTime":1960.653,"endTime":1962.338,"body":"because it's been years ago."},{"startTime":1962.338,"endTime":1963.478,"body":"Start my rest."},{"startTime":1963.588,"endTime":1964.308,"body":"This is what I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":1964.458,"endTime":1968.098,"body":"Okay, well, what are the business"},{"startTime":1964.458,"endTime":1968.098,"body":"rules of a rest when you be so long"},{"startTime":1968.148,"endTime":1970.928,"body":"when you when you click start my"},{"startTime":1968.148,"endTime":1970.928,"body":"rest like obviously you can't be You"},{"startTime":1970.928,"endTime":1972.268,"body":"can't be driving when you say it."},{"startTime":1972.358,"endTime":1974.098,"body":"Your speed has to be zero, right?"},{"startTime":1974.098,"endTime":1975.878,"body":"I mean, I guess."},{"startTime":1976.028,"endTime":1978.878,"body":"But well,  there are some"},{"startTime":1976.028,"endTime":1978.878,"body":"people that tag team driving,"},{"startTime":1978.888,"endTime":1979.908,"body":"like two drivers in one truck."},{"startTime":1979.908,"endTime":1980.698,"body":"You're right, you're right."},{"startTime":1980.698,"endTime":1985.068,"body":"But, there are business rules"},{"startTime":1980.698,"endTime":1985.068,"body":"that the business can say."},{"startTime":1985.118,"endTime":1988.168,"body":"I'm like the, the thing we were talking"},{"startTime":1985.118,"endTime":1988.168,"body":"about earlier with signatures, or if"},{"startTime":1988.168,"endTime":1992.108,"body":"you're talking about like buying a home"},{"startTime":1988.168,"endTime":1992.108,"body":"like every page has to have a signature"},{"startTime":1992.418,"endTime":1995.578,"body":"and certain things have to be filled out"},{"startTime":1992.418,"endTime":1995.578,"body":"before other things can be filled out."},{"startTime":1995.578,"endTime":1997.088,"body":"Like those are business rules."},{"startTime":1997.238,"endTime":1997.898,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1997.948,"endTime":2000.808,"body":"So I think you could break down"},{"startTime":1997.948,"endTime":2000.808,"body":"your stories by business rules."},{"startTime":2001.008,"endTime":2005.068,"body":"Whereas maybe you could say like,"},{"startTime":2001.008,"endTime":2005.068,"body":"well, I mean, is it, is it valuable"},{"startTime":2005.078,"endTime":2010.358,"body":"to have You know the first three"},{"startTime":2005.078,"endTime":2010.358,"body":"documents signed and not the last 15"},{"startTime":2010.558,"endTime":2015.258,"body":"why don't we just have the story say"},{"startTime":2010.558,"endTime":2015.258,"body":"sign all 30 documents and each document"},{"startTime":2015.278,"endTime":2016.548,"body":"has its own business rules, right?"},{"startTime":2016.698,"endTime":2020.728,"body":"Yeah, look maybe in that scenario"},{"startTime":2016.698,"endTime":2020.728,"body":"after having the first three"},{"startTime":2020.728,"endTime":2024.288,"body":"documents signed Another process"},{"startTime":2020.728,"endTime":2024.288,"body":"could be spawned off, right?"},{"startTime":2024.288,"endTime":2027.028,"body":"Instead of waiting for all of the"},{"startTime":2024.288,"endTime":2027.028,"body":"documents to be signed, right?"},{"startTime":2027.178,"endTime":2030.798,"body":"Like, for example, in the example"},{"startTime":2027.178,"endTime":2030.798,"body":"of applying for a mortgage, maybe"},{"startTime":2030.798,"endTime":2034.498,"body":"once you've got to a certain point,"},{"startTime":2030.798,"endTime":2034.498,"body":"then the bank can start doing things"},{"startTime":2034.498,"endTime":2037.458,"body":"like your background check, your"},{"startTime":2034.498,"endTime":2037.458,"body":"credit checks, all of that stuff."},{"startTime":2037.528,"endTime":2039.578,"body":"They don't have to wait until"},{"startTime":2037.528,"endTime":2039.578,"body":"you've signed all of the documents."},{"startTime":2039.728,"endTime":2039.938,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2040.028,"endTime":2043.458,"body":"So there's reasons why you want"},{"startTime":2040.028,"endTime":2043.458,"body":"to fork the workflow in this way."},{"startTime":2043.608,"endTime":2045.478,"body":"Yeah, you may want to trigger to say."},{"startTime":2045.628,"endTime":2047.308,"body":"This process has been started."},{"startTime":2047.458,"endTime":2051.188,"body":"It's not finished yet, but this process"},{"startTime":2047.458,"endTime":2051.188,"body":"has been started in order to kick"},{"startTime":2051.188,"endTime":2055.388,"body":"off some other, some other processes,"},{"startTime":2051.188,"endTime":2055.388,"body":"unless you're in the UK and it's"},{"startTime":2055.398,"endTime":2056.778,"body":"processes, but whatever, it's fine."},{"startTime":2057.028,"endTime":2059.638,"body":"If you're in project management,"},{"startTime":2057.028,"endTime":2059.638,"body":"that's the start to start."},{"startTime":2059.638,"endTime":2063.138,"body":"So something starts and something"},{"startTime":2059.638,"endTime":2063.138,"body":"else can start once that other thing"},{"startTime":2063.148,"endTime":2066.548,"body":"has already started, but you do"},{"startTime":2063.148,"endTime":2066.548,"body":"this via business rules, correct?"},{"startTime":2066.738,"endTime":2070.058,"body":"So that just means though, that you"},{"startTime":2066.738,"endTime":2070.058,"body":"have to understand your business rules."},{"startTime":2070.263,"endTime":2074.153,"body":"Clearly, so that you can"},{"startTime":2070.263,"endTime":2074.153,"body":"align your stories up along"},{"startTime":2074.153,"endTime":2075.213,"body":"the lines of business rules."},{"startTime":2075.553,"endTime":2078.433,"body":"So what about dependencies"},{"startTime":2075.553,"endTime":2078.433,"body":"that are stuck in your way?"},{"startTime":2078.583,"endTime":2079.323,"body":"Oh, dependencies."},{"startTime":2079.353,"endTime":2082.423,"body":"Cause sometimes it's not necessarily"},{"startTime":2079.353,"endTime":2082.423,"body":"you're writing stories about dependencies."},{"startTime":2082.433,"endTime":2084.523,"body":"Although, I mean, I guess"},{"startTime":2082.433,"endTime":2084.523,"body":"theoretically you could."},{"startTime":2084.583,"endTime":2085.893,"body":"I try not to."},{"startTime":2086.163,"endTime":2089.143,"body":"I try to write my stories"},{"startTime":2086.163,"endTime":2089.143,"body":"around dependencies."},{"startTime":2089.293,"endTime":2093.843,"body":"And I use, again, in the ALM tool"},{"startTime":2089.293,"endTime":2093.843,"body":"I use, I have the block status."},{"startTime":2093.993,"endTime":2098.193,"body":"And I will move things into the block"},{"startTime":2093.993,"endTime":2098.193,"body":"status to indicate I cannot move"},{"startTime":2098.193,"endTime":2103.083,"body":"this story because it is waiting on"},{"startTime":2098.193,"endTime":2103.083,"body":"this thing to become available or"},{"startTime":2103.083,"endTime":2105.053,"body":"this thing to be on block basically."},{"startTime":2105.203,"endTime":2107.923,"body":"So sometimes I will write things"},{"startTime":2105.203,"endTime":2107.923,"body":"like we were talking about"},{"startTime":2107.933,"endTime":2109.153,"body":"APIs for mobile development."},{"startTime":2109.193,"endTime":2109.373,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2109.523,"endTime":2113.223,"body":"And if we're talking about, well, I"},{"startTime":2109.523,"endTime":2113.223,"body":"need to go get all my orders from Amazon"},{"startTime":2113.273,"endTime":2119.443,"body":"but maybe I haven't been approved as"},{"startTime":2113.273,"endTime":2119.443,"body":"an Amazon vendor or something, right?"},{"startTime":2119.493,"endTime":2120.243,"body":"Like a seller."},{"startTime":2120.273,"endTime":2121.113,"body":"Yeah, something."},{"startTime":2121.113,"endTime":2121.373,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2121.523,"endTime":2124.233,"body":"So I can't return all the"},{"startTime":2121.523,"endTime":2124.233,"body":"orders through Amazon."},{"startTime":2124.243,"endTime":2129.073,"body":"So I'm still going to create the story"},{"startTime":2124.243,"endTime":2129.073,"body":"to pull Amazon orders in my mobile app."},{"startTime":2129.223,"endTime":2132.343,"body":"But again, like we said earlier"},{"startTime":2129.223,"endTime":2132.343,"body":"in the example it's all going"},{"startTime":2132.343,"endTime":2133.543,"body":"to be fake orders, right?"},{"startTime":2133.543,"endTime":2133.923,"body":"It's all good."},{"startTime":2133.923,"endTime":2137.053,"body":"So, so my mobile app will"},{"startTime":2133.923,"endTime":2137.053,"body":"be pulling the orders."},{"startTime":2137.343,"endTime":2138.583,"body":"They'll all just be fake orders."},{"startTime":2138.603,"endTime":2141.883,"body":"Or maybe they'll come back and"},{"startTime":2138.603,"endTime":2141.883,"body":"say, you know feature coming soon."},{"startTime":2141.933,"endTime":2144.303,"body":"Couldn't retrieve orders feature"},{"startTime":2141.933,"endTime":2144.303,"body":"coming soon or something like that."},{"startTime":2144.323,"endTime":2148.313,"body":"Because we haven't been approved"},{"startTime":2144.323,"endTime":2148.313,"body":"yet by Amazon to be able to"},{"startTime":2148.383,"endTime":2150.283,"body":"actively pull the orders."},{"startTime":2150.583,"endTime":2152.443,"body":"So I, but I've got the work done."},{"startTime":2152.443,"endTime":2155.983,"body":"I like that, that particular story"},{"startTime":2152.443,"endTime":2155.983,"body":"can be done and can be demonstrated"},{"startTime":2156.183,"endTime":2158.093,"body":"and the, and I can get people excited."},{"startTime":2158.093,"endTime":2162.903,"body":"I can get the sales group ready and"},{"startTime":2158.093,"endTime":2162.903,"body":"out there in the field the idea is I'm"},{"startTime":2162.923,"endTime":2168.513,"body":"energizing the whole apparatus in the"},{"startTime":2162.923,"endTime":2168.513,"body":"company marketing sales all my account"},{"startTime":2168.513,"endTime":2171.583,"body":"reps, all my customer people, I'm getting"},{"startTime":2168.513,"endTime":2171.583,"body":"them ready to understand how the feature"},{"startTime":2171.583,"endTime":2175.033,"body":"is about to be used before we actually"},{"startTime":2171.583,"endTime":2175.033,"body":"connect the back end of the feature."},{"startTime":2175.183,"endTime":2176.083,"body":"I think this is okay."},{"startTime":2176.083,"endTime":2177.833,"body":"Working around obstacles, I think is okay."},{"startTime":2177.913,"endTime":2179.073,"body":"It's perfectly fine."},{"startTime":2179.073,"endTime":2179.503,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2179.703,"endTime":2181.533,"body":"And in that example of yours, right?"},{"startTime":2181.533,"endTime":2185.563,"body":"So once you have mock data coming back,"},{"startTime":2181.533,"endTime":2185.563,"body":"I almost don't want to even call it fake."},{"startTime":2185.893,"endTime":2186.203,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2186.303,"endTime":2190.243,"body":"It's mock data that's come coming"},{"startTime":2186.303,"endTime":2190.243,"body":"back once you get approved in that"},{"startTime":2190.243,"endTime":2192.153,"body":"scenario, there's no other change needed."},{"startTime":2192.303,"endTime":2195.263,"body":"It's just that mock data will"},{"startTime":2192.303,"endTime":2195.263,"body":"be replaced by real data, right?"},{"startTime":2195.413,"endTime":2198.163,"body":"So you can deploy that in"},{"startTime":2195.413,"endTime":2198.163,"body":"production all day long."},{"startTime":2198.183,"endTime":2200.713,"body":"And it was always going to say"},{"startTime":2198.183,"endTime":2200.713,"body":"is, like you said earlier, right?"},{"startTime":2200.863,"endTime":2204.683,"body":"You know, data to come or"},{"startTime":2200.863,"endTime":2204.683,"body":"whatever the disclaimer is, right?"},{"startTime":2204.713,"endTime":2206.103,"body":"And then when data comes, it comes."},{"startTime":2206.143,"endTime":2207.343,"body":"There's nothing else to be done."},{"startTime":2207.493,"endTime":2210.293,"body":"We were talking about it in"},{"startTime":2207.493,"endTime":2210.293,"body":"terms of obstacles, I think the"},{"startTime":2210.293,"endTime":2211.693,"body":"same thing with dependencies."},{"startTime":2211.843,"endTime":2212.223,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2212.273,"endTime":2212.543,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2212.543,"endTime":2218.153,"body":"And in most ALM tools, you can create"},{"startTime":2212.543,"endTime":2218.153,"body":"that as a relationship between stories."},{"startTime":2218.193,"endTime":2218.463,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2218.463,"endTime":2219.883,"body":"So you can then sequence them."},{"startTime":2220.113,"endTime":2220.693,"body":"Coming soon."},{"startTime":2220.843,"endTime":2224.033,"body":"Go pull my orders and the response"},{"startTime":2220.843,"endTime":2224.033,"body":"comes back with coming soon."},{"startTime":2224.183,"endTime":2226.053,"body":"It's like, it's like the"},{"startTime":2224.183,"endTime":2226.053,"body":"trailers at the movies."},{"startTime":2226.053,"endTime":2227.243,"body":"I feel coming soon."},{"startTime":2227.543,"endTime":2231.603,"body":"we haven't touched on fake"},{"startTime":2227.543,"endTime":2231.603,"body":"door type of features, right?"},{"startTime":2231.603,"endTime":2234.683,"body":"Whereas like, well, well, which"},{"startTime":2231.603,"endTime":2234.683,"body":"kind of goes along with this working"},{"startTime":2234.683,"endTime":2236.733,"body":"around obstacles category is."},{"startTime":2236.968,"endTime":2240.718,"body":"Well, we don't know if we want to"},{"startTime":2236.968,"endTime":2240.718,"body":"commit to actually pulling orders."},{"startTime":2240.868,"endTime":2246.028,"body":"Like Ohm thinks it's really important"},{"startTime":2240.868,"endTime":2246.028,"body":"because he works on Amazon adjacent app,"},{"startTime":2246.238,"endTime":2250.528,"body":"but I don't really like Amazon personally"},{"startTime":2246.238,"endTime":2250.528,"body":"and I don't you know, I think we should go"},{"startTime":2250.528,"endTime":2252.258,"body":"with some other marketplace or whatever."},{"startTime":2252.408,"endTime":2257.698,"body":"So, so, so but Ohm can implement the"},{"startTime":2252.408,"endTime":2257.698,"body":"feature that says coming soon or whatever."},{"startTime":2257.848,"endTime":2261.668,"body":"And he can start gathering metrics"},{"startTime":2257.848,"endTime":2261.668,"body":"with his story that he actually"},{"startTime":2261.668,"endTime":2267.558,"body":"implemented to say, Well, actually,"},{"startTime":2261.668,"endTime":2267.558,"body":"Brian 65 percent of users do click"},{"startTime":2267.828,"endTime":2272.308,"body":"this order pass through function"},{"startTime":2267.828,"endTime":2272.308,"body":"and they get the coming soon screen."},{"startTime":2272.308,"endTime":2275.768,"body":"So we probably should elevate the"},{"startTime":2272.308,"endTime":2275.768,"body":"connecting the database story or"},{"startTime":2275.768,"endTime":2279.528,"body":"connecting the whatever vendor API"},{"startTime":2275.768,"endTime":2279.528,"body":"store, whatever it is That's a great"},{"startTime":2279.528,"endTime":2285.238,"body":"example of using something to test"},{"startTime":2279.528,"endTime":2285.238,"body":"out a theory or hypothesis and then"},{"startTime":2285.408,"endTime":2288.938,"body":"being data driven and say, yeah, let's"},{"startTime":2285.408,"endTime":2288.938,"body":"move this story up or down, right?"},{"startTime":2289.168,"endTime":2290.948,"body":"Because you now have data, right?"},{"startTime":2290.958,"endTime":2294.488,"body":"So it's an empirical decision rather"},{"startTime":2290.958,"endTime":2294.488,"body":"than just a emotional or a gut decision."},{"startTime":2294.488,"endTime":2294.648,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2294.648,"endTime":2296.958,"body":"And there might be people listening"},{"startTime":2294.648,"endTime":2296.958,"body":"to this and say, well, why would I"},{"startTime":2296.958,"endTime":2299.578,"body":"want to have a feature that I don't"},{"startTime":2296.958,"endTime":2299.578,"body":"know if I'm ever going to turn on?"},{"startTime":2299.578,"endTime":2303.058,"body":"Well,  if you're building your"},{"startTime":2299.578,"endTime":2303.058,"body":"applications in a modern way where you"},{"startTime":2303.058,"endTime":2306.238,"body":"have feature flags, we can say, well,"},{"startTime":2303.058,"endTime":2306.238,"body":"we're going to enable a flag for two"},{"startTime":2306.238,"endTime":2307.678,"body":"weeks and then we're going to turn it off."},{"startTime":2307.748,"endTime":2311.018,"body":"If we haven't committed to pushing the"},{"startTime":2307.748,"endTime":2311.018,"body":"story through in the API and connecting"},{"startTime":2311.018,"endTime":2313.908,"body":"to the Amazon backend or whatever, then"},{"startTime":2311.018,"endTime":2313.908,"body":"we're going to turn the feature off"},{"startTime":2313.978,"endTime":2315.638,"body":"because we don't want to aggravate users."},{"startTime":2315.788,"endTime":2316.928,"body":"And it will be transparent to them."},{"startTime":2316.978,"endTime":2317.788,"body":"Sure, yeah."},{"startTime":2317.788,"endTime":2323.588,"body":"Some people might have a hard time with"},{"startTime":2317.788,"endTime":2323.588,"body":"this because they don't work in this way."},{"startTime":2323.738,"endTime":2327.958,"body":"Not only, not only not vertical"},{"startTime":2323.738,"endTime":2327.958,"body":"slicing, but also not feature flags."},{"startTime":2327.968,"endTime":2330.348,"body":"So they might have a little"},{"startTime":2327.968,"endTime":2330.348,"body":"difficulty with this, but again,"},{"startTime":2330.498,"endTime":2331.718,"body":"plenty of teams work like this."},{"startTime":2331.718,"endTime":2334.668,"body":"So it is a normal thing,"},{"startTime":2331.718,"endTime":2334.668,"body":"it is possible push for it."},{"startTime":2334.883,"endTime":2335.953,"body":"You know, it is possible."},{"startTime":2335.973,"endTime":2336.573,"body":"Definitely."},{"startTime":2336.623,"endTime":2337.063,"body":"Definitely."},{"startTime":2337.063,"endTime":2339.033,"body":"There's many ways of"},{"startTime":2337.063,"endTime":2339.033,"body":"doing this too, right?"},{"startTime":2339.053,"endTime":2344.643,"body":"You can have a feature toggle that"},{"startTime":2339.053,"endTime":2344.643,"body":"basically is, is turned on at a certain"},{"startTime":2344.643,"endTime":2348.313,"body":"point on a date, time horizon, and"},{"startTime":2344.643,"endTime":2348.313,"body":"then turned off again automatically."},{"startTime":2348.313,"endTime":2350.953,"body":"So you don't, your team doesn't have"},{"startTime":2348.313,"endTime":2350.953,"body":"to do anything all the way down to"},{"startTime":2350.953,"endTime":2352.803,"body":"the other end of the spectrum where."},{"startTime":2352.953,"endTime":2356.503,"body":"You can give the customers the key to"},{"startTime":2352.953,"endTime":2356.503,"body":"turn on the toggle and turn it off."},{"startTime":2356.813,"endTime":2359.833,"body":"So they can try it and if they"},{"startTime":2356.813,"endTime":2359.833,"body":"don't like it, they can turn it off."},{"startTime":2359.993,"endTime":2361.813,"body":"No other customer could have that."},{"startTime":2361.963,"endTime":2364.143,"body":"So it's restricted audience."},{"startTime":2364.153,"endTime":2365.313,"body":"Role based, role based."},{"startTime":2365.543,"endTime":2365.913,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2365.933,"endTime":2369.013,"body":"So a lot of this stuff is interweaved."},{"startTime":2369.013,"endTime":2369.763,"body":"And I like that."},{"startTime":2369.823,"endTime":2370.363,"body":"That's as good."},{"startTime":2370.513,"endTime":2370.803,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2370.813,"endTime":2372.913,"body":"So let's talk about spikes."},{"startTime":2373.123,"endTime":2376.293,"body":"I've said this many times before on"},{"startTime":2373.123,"endTime":2376.293,"body":"the podcast, in my backlog, I have a"},{"startTime":2376.293,"endTime":2380.353,"body":"component which tells you the type of"},{"startTime":2376.293,"endTime":2380.353,"body":"story, basically a category of story."},{"startTime":2380.683,"endTime":2381.793,"body":"Is it a new feature?"},{"startTime":2381.973,"endTime":2385.353,"body":"You know, something that we can capitalize"},{"startTime":2381.973,"endTime":2385.353,"body":"basically, is it just kind of like"},{"startTime":2385.353,"endTime":2388.793,"body":"recurring maintenance, something that we"},{"startTime":2385.353,"endTime":2388.793,"body":"can't capitalize it has to go into OPEX."},{"startTime":2389.123,"endTime":2393.263,"body":"I've broken things down so that, so"},{"startTime":2389.123,"endTime":2393.263,"body":"that finance can very easily take"},{"startTime":2393.263,"endTime":2397.183,"body":"the buckets of work and, and, and"},{"startTime":2393.263,"endTime":2397.183,"body":"do what they need, although they"},{"startTime":2397.183,"endTime":2398.583,"body":"don't, they do things the hard way."},{"startTime":2398.733,"endTime":2399.773,"body":"Cause their finance"},{"startTime":2399.983,"endTime":2400.698,"body":"so."},{"startTime":2400.848,"endTime":2404.818,"body":"Spike stories are, I want to"},{"startTime":2400.848,"endTime":2404.818,"body":"engage in this line of work,"},{"startTime":2404.888,"endTime":2406.858,"body":"but we're all unsure about it."},{"startTime":2407.008,"endTime":2412.308,"body":"So we need to spend some time and learn"},{"startTime":2407.008,"endTime":2412.308,"body":"about something, learn about technology,"},{"startTime":2412.308,"endTime":2415.728,"body":"learn about business processes, learn"},{"startTime":2412.308,"endTime":2415.728,"body":"about applications, potentially, like"},{"startTime":2415.728,"endTime":2419.058,"body":"if you, I think about if you take over,"},{"startTime":2415.728,"endTime":2419.058,"body":"like if you take over an application"},{"startTime":2419.058,"endTime":2422.768,"body":"from a, another team and your team has"},{"startTime":2419.058,"endTime":2422.768,"body":"no skill in it, they have to spend some"},{"startTime":2422.768,"endTime":2424.528,"body":"time learning about the application."},{"startTime":2424.548,"endTime":2426.938,"body":"And basically their, their time."},{"startTime":2427.258,"endTime":2429.668,"body":"Spent learning how to do things."},{"startTime":2429.818,"endTime":2431.158,"body":"I call that a capability."},{"startTime":2431.158,"endTime":2433.208,"body":"My team is now learning a capability."},{"startTime":2433.288,"endTime":2437.928,"body":"they're taking on and advancing"},{"startTime":2433.288,"endTime":2437.928,"body":"a new skill basically."},{"startTime":2438.098,"endTime":2440.668,"body":"So I have a category"},{"startTime":2438.098,"endTime":2440.668,"body":"for that in my backlog."},{"startTime":2440.918,"endTime":2441.128,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2441.128,"endTime":2445.468,"body":"So I can in the, on the finance"},{"startTime":2441.128,"endTime":2445.468,"body":"balance sheet, I can show time spent."},{"startTime":2445.658,"endTime":2449.188,"body":"It can be assigned to an, it's"},{"startTime":2445.658,"endTime":2449.188,"body":"own little GL code for spikes."},{"startTime":2449.388,"endTime":2451.038,"body":"I will preface this by saying."},{"startTime":2451.188,"endTime":2451.938,"body":"I don't like."},{"startTime":2452.178,"endTime":2454.268,"body":"Assigning points to spike stories."},{"startTime":2454.418,"endTime":2459.388,"body":"I personally think spike story should be"},{"startTime":2454.418,"endTime":2459.388,"body":"just time box, spend X amount of time."},{"startTime":2459.438,"endTime":2462.028,"body":"Whatever the team decides is the time box."},{"startTime":2462.178,"endTime":2464.538,"body":"Spend X amount of time"},{"startTime":2462.178,"endTime":2464.538,"body":"learning how this works."},{"startTime":2464.628,"endTime":2467.058,"body":"When you're done with that time"},{"startTime":2464.628,"endTime":2467.058,"body":"come together, get the team"},{"startTime":2467.058,"endTime":2471.068,"body":"together and review with us how"},{"startTime":2467.058,"endTime":2471.068,"body":"it works and walk us through it."},{"startTime":2471.308,"endTime":2474.268,"body":"It's my team has chosen"},{"startTime":2471.308,"endTime":2474.268,"body":"a time box of two days."},{"startTime":2474.418,"endTime":2475.628,"body":"It could be a lot less."},{"startTime":2475.758,"endTime":2476.428,"body":"It could be more."},{"startTime":2476.438,"endTime":2479.768,"body":"I'm trying not to get into what is"},{"startTime":2476.438,"endTime":2479.768,"body":"best for your team, but the way my team"},{"startTime":2479.768,"endTime":2482.388,"body":"handles it is A spike is just a time box."},{"startTime":2482.468,"endTime":2486.528,"body":"I don't put points to it because"},{"startTime":2482.468,"endTime":2486.528,"body":"the spike is, I don't know go"},{"startTime":2486.528,"endTime":2489.558,"body":"figure out what we know and don't"},{"startTime":2486.528,"endTime":2489.558,"body":"know, and then bring it back, bring"},{"startTime":2489.558,"endTime":2490.658,"body":"those learnings back to the team."},{"startTime":2490.858,"endTime":2493.888,"body":"there's not really a podcast about"},{"startTime":2490.858,"endTime":2493.888,"body":"talking about, but it's not, if you're"},{"startTime":2493.888,"endTime":2495.438,"body":"putting points, then put points, right?"},{"startTime":2495.468,"endTime":2495.988,"body":"Just be consistent."},{"startTime":2496.208,"endTime":2496.418,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2496.418,"endTime":2497.468,"body":"What we have, . I'm sorry."},{"startTime":2497.468,"endTime":2498.468,"body":"I even brought up points."},{"startTime":2498.468,"endTime":2501.778,"body":"The, the, my, my, my objective"},{"startTime":2498.468,"endTime":2501.778,"body":"with bringing this thing up is."},{"startTime":2501.928,"endTime":2506.258,"body":"Sometimes you cannot break a story"},{"startTime":2501.928,"endTime":2506.258,"body":"because you don't understand it."},{"startTime":2506.408,"endTime":2508.308,"body":"So you have to create"},{"startTime":2506.408,"endTime":2508.308,"body":"this type of work item."},{"startTime":2508.478,"endTime":2508.678,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2508.678,"endTime":2509.448,"body":"It's to learn something."},{"startTime":2509.448,"endTime":2511.128,"body":"First of all, I categorize it."},{"startTime":2511.468,"endTime":2511.698,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2512.028,"endTime":2516.338,"body":"Because if you start seeing this"},{"startTime":2512.028,"endTime":2516.338,"body":"big, this big uptick in, we have"},{"startTime":2516.338,"endTime":2517.578,"body":"to learn how to do whatever."},{"startTime":2517.818,"endTime":2520.878,"body":"Like that is your trigger to say"},{"startTime":2517.818,"endTime":2520.878,"body":"like, wait a minute why do we"},{"startTime":2520.878,"endTime":2522.688,"body":"have to relearn all this stuff?"},{"startTime":2522.918,"endTime":2523.648,"body":"What are we doing?"},{"startTime":2523.648,"endTime":2525.888,"body":"Like, wow, how are we"},{"startTime":2523.648,"endTime":2525.888,"body":"doing so much unknowns?"},{"startTime":2526.223,"endTime":2528.773,"body":"You know, and, and, and kind of what"},{"startTime":2526.223,"endTime":2528.773,"body":"are we doing in our, in our business."},{"startTime":2528.773,"endTime":2528.983,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2529.243,"endTime":2529.443,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2529.663,"endTime":2534.013,"body":"But I categorize it, I time box it,"},{"startTime":2529.663,"endTime":2534.013,"body":"and that's how I keep real tight."},{"startTime":2534.163,"endTime":2538.943,"body":"Track of things, track of, of, yeah, of"},{"startTime":2534.163,"endTime":2538.943,"body":"this kind of like unknowns, you know?"},{"startTime":2539.093,"endTime":2539.293,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2539.293,"endTime":2542.293,"body":"I mean, it's spot on when you"},{"startTime":2539.293,"endTime":2542.293,"body":"say, if you have a lot of spikes,"},{"startTime":2542.443,"endTime":2545.273,"body":"Then that's an indication of"},{"startTime":2542.443,"endTime":2545.273,"body":"something else not going right."},{"startTime":2545.303,"endTime":2547.483,"body":"Maybe your refinements"},{"startTime":2545.303,"endTime":2547.483,"body":"are lacking or something."},{"startTime":2547.493,"endTime":2548.933,"body":"The team's always unsure."},{"startTime":2549.083,"endTime":2551.463,"body":"Spikes are also around external things."},{"startTime":2551.463,"endTime":2554.973,"body":"Like you might want to do a spike to"},{"startTime":2551.463,"endTime":2554.973,"body":"prove the market to learn something."},{"startTime":2555.033,"endTime":2555.303,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2555.323,"endTime":2555.603,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2555.753,"endTime":2556.693,"body":"So in that case."},{"startTime":2556.843,"endTime":2558.303,"body":"It might be more than a day or two."},{"startTime":2558.473,"endTime":2559.383,"body":"It doesn't really matter."},{"startTime":2559.413,"endTime":2562.993,"body":"If you're gonna do spikes, they should"},{"startTime":2559.413,"endTime":2562.993,"body":"have an outcome out of the spikes."},{"startTime":2563.073,"endTime":2566.113,"body":"And that outcome should be to"},{"startTime":2563.073,"endTime":2566.113,"body":"learn more, to reduce the cone of"},{"startTime":2566.113,"endTime":2570.043,"body":"uncertainty, so that you can create"},{"startTime":2566.113,"endTime":2570.043,"body":"stories and move on from there."},{"startTime":2570.193,"endTime":2574.843,"body":"So stories are spikes when the only"},{"startTime":2570.193,"endTime":2574.843,"body":"outcome is something that you're"},{"startTime":2574.843,"endTime":2578.223,"body":"not really putting into production,"},{"startTime":2574.843,"endTime":2578.223,"body":"but you're using that output to"},{"startTime":2578.223,"endTime":2579.953,"body":"create stories, other stories."},{"startTime":2580.133,"endTime":2584.033,"body":"I've used spike stories for that"},{"startTime":2580.133,"endTime":2584.033,"body":"as well to say, when this spike"},{"startTime":2584.093,"endTime":2586.113,"body":"ends, the acceptance criteria is."},{"startTime":2586.413,"endTime":2591.923,"body":"We are now able to create an"},{"startTime":2586.413,"endTime":2591.923,"body":"architecture to do some specific thing."},{"startTime":2592.123,"endTime":2598.953,"body":"For example, a recent spike story"},{"startTime":2592.123,"endTime":2598.953,"body":"that one of my teams took on was to"},{"startTime":2599.013,"endTime":2601.643,"body":"investigate different queuing systems."},{"startTime":2601.793,"endTime":2605.243,"body":"So there's a lot of different queuing"},{"startTime":2601.793,"endTime":2605.243,"body":"systems on the market and AWS has its"},{"startTime":2605.243,"endTime":2608.883,"body":"own built in queuing system, but it's"},{"startTime":2605.243,"endTime":2608.883,"body":"only appropriate for some, some people."},{"startTime":2608.963,"endTime":2614.163,"body":"Particular types of uses and the spike"},{"startTime":2608.963,"endTime":2614.163,"body":"story was investigate several types of"},{"startTime":2614.163,"endTime":2617.773,"body":"queuing mechanisms, kind of the team"},{"startTime":2614.163,"endTime":2617.773,"body":"kind of listed out a few of them that"},{"startTime":2617.783,"endTime":2622.498,"body":"they want to try and figure out which"},{"startTime":2617.783,"endTime":2622.498,"body":"one was the best best fit for purpose"},{"startTime":2622.518,"endTime":2626.448,"body":"for what we were trying to do because"},{"startTime":2622.518,"endTime":2626.448,"body":"the team had a, we had a defined business"},{"startTime":2626.538,"endTime":2628.088,"body":"case that we were trying to accomplish."},{"startTime":2628.428,"endTime":2631.508,"body":"And there were a couple of different"},{"startTime":2628.428,"endTime":2631.508,"body":"technologies of queuing systems"},{"startTime":2631.508,"endTime":2632.538,"body":"that we were investigating."},{"startTime":2632.798,"endTime":2637.558,"body":"And that was a spike, which one"},{"startTime":2632.798,"endTime":2637.558,"body":"is gonna be best for us based"},{"startTime":2637.558,"endTime":2638.598,"body":"on all the things we want to do."},{"startTime":2638.758,"endTime":2641.488,"body":"And here's the things we want to,"},{"startTime":2638.758,"endTime":2641.488,"body":"like we listed in the spike story,"},{"startTime":2641.818,"endTime":2644.798,"body":"here's all the different things that"},{"startTime":2641.818,"endTime":2644.798,"body":"we, Think we want to do not that we're"},{"startTime":2644.798,"endTime":2648.398,"body":"certain, absolutely certain and then"},{"startTime":2644.798,"endTime":2648.398,"body":"the developer took a bit of time."},{"startTime":2648.548,"endTime":2651.048,"body":"And then at the end of the sprint,"},{"startTime":2648.548,"endTime":2651.048,"body":"they were able to come to the sprint"},{"startTime":2651.048,"endTime":2654.558,"body":"review, a separate sprint review, just"},{"startTime":2651.048,"endTime":2654.558,"body":"with the technical staff, basically to"},{"startTime":2654.558,"endTime":2656.348,"body":"talk about this technology does this."},{"startTime":2656.498,"endTime":2659.798,"body":"And then the lead developers, I was"},{"startTime":2656.498,"endTime":2659.798,"body":"on the call, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2659.798,"endTime":2662.508,"body":"That was like, we all would ask"},{"startTime":2659.798,"endTime":2662.508,"body":"different questions from perspective."},{"startTime":2662.508,"endTime":2665.368,"body":"And then the developers who"},{"startTime":2662.508,"endTime":2665.368,"body":"investigated the spike would be"},{"startTime":2665.378,"endTime":2666.718,"body":"able to answer all of our questions."},{"startTime":2666.788,"endTime":2671.468,"body":"That's a good example of using a spike"},{"startTime":2666.788,"endTime":2671.468,"body":"in case of a situation where you want"},{"startTime":2671.468,"endTime":2675.078,"body":"to evaluate things, those spikes are"},{"startTime":2671.468,"endTime":2675.078,"body":"longer because you've got to do the"},{"startTime":2675.078,"endTime":2677.298,"body":"same thing across multiple options."},{"startTime":2677.448,"endTime":2679.838,"body":"So this developer might've looked at."},{"startTime":2679.988,"endTime":2682.308,"body":"The criteria for success, right?"},{"startTime":2682.348,"endTime":2686.718,"body":"These are the things that must do any"},{"startTime":2682.348,"endTime":2686.718,"body":"messaging tool and then, or system."},{"startTime":2686.748,"endTime":2690.188,"body":"And then looked at for example,"},{"startTime":2686.748,"endTime":2690.188,"body":"what, what does a MSMQ give you"},{"startTime":2690.188,"endTime":2692.988,"body":"or a rabbit MQ or whatever the,"},{"startTime":2690.188,"endTime":2692.988,"body":"whatever the queuing mechanism is."},{"startTime":2693.318,"endTime":2697.138,"body":"And then decide on which one takes most"},{"startTime":2693.318,"endTime":2697.138,"body":"boxes and all of these other things."},{"startTime":2697.288,"endTime":2701.428,"body":"So it's a good example of using spike"},{"startTime":2697.288,"endTime":2701.428,"body":"stories for evaluation purposes."},{"startTime":2701.478,"endTime":2701.738,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2701.888,"endTime":2702.088,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2702.088,"endTime":2705.348,"body":"that particular team usually the"},{"startTime":2702.088,"endTime":2705.348,"body":"business will come to them with a"},{"startTime":2705.508,"endTime":2709.688,"body":"potential new scenario that is not"},{"startTime":2705.508,"endTime":2709.688,"body":"accounted for in our current software."},{"startTime":2709.688,"endTime":2714.188,"body":"They'll have to constantly be seeking"},{"startTime":2709.688,"endTime":2714.188,"body":"new ways of doing things so that that"},{"startTime":2714.188,"endTime":2718.258,"body":"team's constantly engaging in spike"},{"startTime":2714.188,"endTime":2718.258,"body":"stories, you know you know, which is,"},{"startTime":2718.278,"endTime":2722.048,"body":"which is you know, again, I was on"},{"startTime":2718.278,"endTime":2722.048,"body":"software development teams for many, many"},{"startTime":2722.048,"endTime":2723.638,"body":"years before I was a product manager."},{"startTime":2723.788,"endTime":2727.018,"body":"So that's the cool thing about"},{"startTime":2723.788,"endTime":2727.018,"body":"being in product management now is I"},{"startTime":2727.018,"endTime":2732.698,"body":"know that I have to keep constantly"},{"startTime":2727.018,"endTime":2732.698,"body":"seeking to disrupt and push past the"},{"startTime":2732.698,"endTime":2734.418,"body":"current technology that we are using."},{"startTime":2734.568,"endTime":2738.618,"body":"Otherwise, we are we're"},{"startTime":2734.568,"endTime":2738.618,"body":"looking at irrelevance in"},{"startTime":2738.718,"endTime":2740.428,"body":"potentially, what, 18 months?"},{"startTime":2740.578,"endTime":2741.858,"body":"A very short period of time."},{"startTime":2741.858,"endTime":2742.578,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2742.868,"endTime":2745.778,"body":"So I'm constantly adding"},{"startTime":2742.868,"endTime":2745.778,"body":"spikes to say, hey, how can we"},{"startTime":2745.778,"endTime":2747.388,"body":"push past where we are today?"},{"startTime":2747.538,"endTime":2750.548,"body":"You know, but I think, I think"},{"startTime":2747.538,"endTime":2750.548,"body":"just personally, I don't know."},{"startTime":2750.698,"endTime":2751.598,"body":"Every team's different."},{"startTime":2751.748,"endTime":2755.978,"body":"But for me, I would rather be"},{"startTime":2751.748,"endTime":2755.978,"body":"on a team that constantly is"},{"startTime":2755.978,"endTime":2757.928,"body":"seeking to reinvent itself."},{"startTime":2757.958,"endTime":2758.108,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2758.438,"endTime":2762.288,"body":"You know, we're, we're like every"},{"startTime":2758.438,"endTime":2762.288,"body":"couple years the, all the, all"},{"startTime":2762.293,"endTime":2763.578,"body":"of our processes are different."},{"startTime":2763.583,"endTime":2766.308,"body":"All of our technology's different"},{"startTime":2763.583,"endTime":2766.308,"body":"and you know, we're, we're not doing"},{"startTime":2766.308,"endTime":2769.158,"body":"the same thing every day forever."},{"startTime":2769.248,"endTime":2769.758,"body":"Like, that's, yeah."},{"startTime":2769.788,"endTime":2772.338,"body":"I mean, otherwise you, you stagnate"},{"startTime":2769.788,"endTime":2772.338,"body":"and then something blindsides"},{"startTime":2772.338,"endTime":2775.338,"body":"you and whoop, there's lots of"},{"startTime":2772.338,"endTime":2775.338,"body":"businesses that run that way though."},{"startTime":2775.343,"endTime":2775.563,"body":"Yeah, I know."},{"startTime":2775.713,"endTime":2776.643,"body":"Sadly, that's true."},{"startTime":2776.953,"endTime":2777.853,"body":"Oh, that's another podcast."},{"startTime":2777.853,"endTime":2781.253,"body":"Another major thing to bring up"},{"startTime":2777.853,"endTime":2781.253,"body":"is when we make a decision and we"},{"startTime":2781.253,"endTime":2783.323,"body":"choose not to tackle something."},{"startTime":2783.343,"endTime":2787.673,"body":"I was just talking about continually"},{"startTime":2783.343,"endTime":2787.673,"body":"evolving our software when we choose"},{"startTime":2787.673,"endTime":2792.008,"body":"to not evolve our software or when we"},{"startTime":2787.673,"endTime":2792.008,"body":"choose to make a technical trade off."},{"startTime":2792.158,"endTime":2796.848,"body":"A lot of teams do not immediately"},{"startTime":2792.158,"endTime":2796.848,"body":"capture the trade off made in story"},{"startTime":2796.958,"endTime":2801.168,"body":"form to say, Hey, we're capturing"},{"startTime":2796.958,"endTime":2801.168,"body":"this user profile information."},{"startTime":2801.318,"endTime":2805.248,"body":"It really should be in a user"},{"startTime":2801.318,"endTime":2805.248,"body":"profile table, I'm not going to"},{"startTime":2805.248,"endTime":2809.048,"body":"call out what, where it was or what"},{"startTime":2805.248,"endTime":2809.048,"body":"part of my What part of my career?"},{"startTime":2809.058,"endTime":2812.508,"body":"Cause there was a lot of technical"},{"startTime":2809.058,"endTime":2812.508,"body":"debt at this particular company that"},{"startTime":2812.508,"endTime":2814.928,"body":"I worked at somewhere in my career."},{"startTime":2814.978,"endTime":2820.578,"body":"but basically their user table had a"},{"startTime":2814.978,"endTime":2820.578,"body":"bunch of columns that should have been"},{"startTime":2820.728,"endTime":2824.878,"body":"other tables  if you think about the, the"},{"startTime":2820.728,"endTime":2824.878,"body":"type of user profile information, like"},{"startTime":2824.878,"endTime":2826.856,"body":"the user user profile should have what,"},{"startTime":2826.856,"endTime":2831.296,"body":"you need to use your name, like a"},{"startTime":2826.856,"endTime":2831.296,"body":"password, salt hash, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":2831.506,"endTime":2835.256,"body":"Maybe some like profiling for me, my"},{"startTime":2831.506,"endTime":2835.256,"body":"name, my phone number, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2835.556,"endTime":2836.276,"body":"Basic stuff."},{"startTime":2836.366,"endTime":2836.536,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2836.536,"endTime":2843.266,"body":"But not like operational things I have"},{"startTime":2836.536,"endTime":2843.266,"body":"access to, or things that are saved in"},{"startTime":2843.306,"endTime":2846.216,"body":"what you would think of as different"},{"startTime":2843.306,"endTime":2846.216,"body":"tables, , here are all my objects and"},{"startTime":2846.216,"endTime":2847.786,"body":"here are all my screen configurations."},{"startTime":2847.786,"endTime":2851.336,"body":"And here, here's my custom setup"},{"startTime":2847.786,"endTime":2851.336,"body":"and save preferences or whatever."},{"startTime":2851.486,"endTime":2854.366,"body":"Those probably should be in"},{"startTime":2851.486,"endTime":2854.366,"body":"separate tables if we're doing"},{"startTime":2854.416,"endTime":2855.786,"body":"a database configuration."},{"startTime":2855.786,"endTime":2858.576,"body":"Well, they had it all"},{"startTime":2855.786,"endTime":2858.576,"body":"in the main user table."},{"startTime":2858.726,"endTime":2863.686,"body":"And it was a real pain to work with"},{"startTime":2858.726,"endTime":2863.686,"body":"like those those Technical debt"},{"startTime":2863.696,"endTime":2867.626,"body":"decisions of like hey, i'm making"},{"startTime":2863.696,"endTime":2867.626,"body":"this decision to take a shortcut."},{"startTime":2867.776,"endTime":2871.306,"body":"We know we're gonna have to deal with"},{"startTime":2867.776,"endTime":2871.306,"body":"it later Let's just stub out the task"},{"startTime":2871.366,"endTime":2876.106,"body":"now When we take the shortcut to say"},{"startTime":2871.366,"endTime":2876.106,"body":"we took the shortcut we all agree."},{"startTime":2876.106,"endTime":2879.216,"body":"It's a shortcut Here's the"},{"startTime":2876.106,"endTime":2879.216,"body":"story to deal with it later and"},{"startTime":2879.216,"endTime":2880.196,"body":"we'll just throw that out there."},{"startTime":2880.306,"endTime":2881.316,"body":"Yeah, just have it out there."},{"startTime":2881.466,"endTime":2887.436,"body":"So i'm of two minds Number one is, you"},{"startTime":2881.466,"endTime":2887.436,"body":"don't want to create stories and never"},{"startTime":2887.436,"endTime":2890.306,"body":"get to them and leave them in your"},{"startTime":2887.436,"endTime":2890.306,"body":"backlog for years and years and years."},{"startTime":2890.456,"endTime":2891.106,"body":"That's one mind."},{"startTime":2891.256,"endTime":2894.546,"body":"On the other mind the development"},{"startTime":2891.256,"endTime":2894.546,"body":"team wants to know that you're not"},{"startTime":2894.556,"endTime":2899.696,"body":"losing track of these things that"},{"startTime":2894.556,"endTime":2899.696,"body":"you said you were taking a shortcut."},{"startTime":2900.006,"endTime":2901.576,"body":"You know it's not the right way to do it."},{"startTime":2901.726,"endTime":2903.496,"body":"We know we want to come"},{"startTime":2901.726,"endTime":2903.496,"body":"back and refactor it."},{"startTime":2903.646,"endTime":2904.896,"body":"They don't want to lose track of that."},{"startTime":2905.046,"endTime":2906.216,"body":"So they want it recorded."},{"startTime":2906.356,"endTime":2908.446,"body":"They do feel better when you say, Okay."},{"startTime":2908.596,"endTime":2910.116,"body":"We're intentionally taking the shortcut."},{"startTime":2910.266,"endTime":2911.206,"body":"Let's put it over here."},{"startTime":2911.356,"endTime":2913.806,"body":"So I'm kind of split on this."},{"startTime":2913.806,"endTime":2917.946,"body":"Well, I think the, I think the guiding"},{"startTime":2913.806,"endTime":2917.946,"body":"principle here would be how long"},{"startTime":2917.946,"endTime":2919.486,"body":"can you live with that compromise?"},{"startTime":2919.646,"endTime":2919.876,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2920.016,"endTime":2920.366,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2920.536,"endTime":2924.056,"body":"So ideally in that example,"},{"startTime":2920.536,"endTime":2924.056,"body":"specifically where this user"},{"startTime":2924.056,"endTime":2925.126,"body":"table had everything in it."},{"startTime":2925.176,"endTime":2926.906,"body":"I mean, it's not very"},{"startTime":2925.176,"endTime":2926.906,"body":"efficient, et cetera."},{"startTime":2927.056,"endTime":2928.456,"body":"You take the shortcut for a reason."},{"startTime":2928.606,"endTime":2931.136,"body":"First of all, let's everybody"},{"startTime":2928.606,"endTime":2931.136,"body":"understand why we're taking it."},{"startTime":2931.466,"endTime":2935.906,"body":"And then that remediation story, put"},{"startTime":2931.466,"endTime":2935.906,"body":"that in there and then have it come up."},{"startTime":2936.216,"endTime":2939.366,"body":"You'd have to, you'd have to"},{"startTime":2936.216,"endTime":2939.366,"body":"go with how important is it"},{"startTime":2939.416,"endTime":2940.846,"body":"to fix that technical debt?"},{"startTime":2940.996,"endTime":2941.786,"body":"Can we live with it?"},{"startTime":2941.936,"endTime":2942.806,"body":"Is it tolerable?"},{"startTime":2942.956,"endTime":2945.726,"body":"So instead of a sub two second"},{"startTime":2942.956,"endTime":2945.726,"body":"response, it takes 10, but"},{"startTime":2945.756,"endTime":2946.866,"body":"everybody's okay with that."},{"startTime":2946.916,"endTime":2948.656,"body":"You probably don't even"},{"startTime":2946.916,"endTime":2948.656,"body":"have to come back to it."},{"startTime":2948.806,"endTime":2952.346,"body":"But on the other hand, you could"},{"startTime":2948.806,"endTime":2952.346,"body":"say, well, this is okay now."},{"startTime":2952.346,"endTime":2952.466,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2952.631,"endTime":2955.391,"body":"When we add more users, it's"},{"startTime":2952.631,"endTime":2955.391,"body":"going to be more problematic."},{"startTime":2955.671,"endTime":2958.481,"body":"We need to break out into multiple"},{"startTime":2955.671,"endTime":2958.481,"body":"tables and link them with you"},{"startTime":2958.481,"endTime":2959.761,"body":"know, indices or whatever."},{"startTime":2959.911,"endTime":2960.371,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2960.421,"endTime":2964.901,"body":"So get that story in there and"},{"startTime":2960.421,"endTime":2964.901,"body":"prioritize it in the context of"},{"startTime":2964.971,"endTime":2966.431,"body":"everything else that's going on."},{"startTime":2966.581,"endTime":2969.291,"body":"It's all of the other stories"},{"startTime":2966.581,"endTime":2969.291,"body":"that you have on your backlog."},{"startTime":2969.331,"endTime":2969.811,"body":"This one."},{"startTime":2970.041,"endTime":2973.781,"body":"It's a tech debt story clearly,"},{"startTime":2970.041,"endTime":2973.781,"body":"and you prioritize it based on how"},{"startTime":2973.791,"endTime":2975.641,"body":"quickly that needs to be remediated."},{"startTime":2975.951,"endTime":2978.371,"body":"So it's, it's not like one size fits all."},{"startTime":2978.521,"endTime":2982.071,"body":"In my example, if the other work that"},{"startTime":2978.521,"endTime":2982.071,"body":"you're doing is okay to push it a"},{"startTime":2982.101,"endTime":2985.971,"body":"little bit and get this thing fixed up"},{"startTime":2982.101,"endTime":2985.971,"body":"now before it gets much, much worse,"},{"startTime":2986.121,"endTime":2989.051,"body":"because when it gets worse, it's not"},{"startTime":2986.121,"endTime":2989.051,"body":"just the fact that you have to change"},{"startTime":2989.051,"endTime":2992.691,"body":"the database design, you have to now"},{"startTime":2989.051,"endTime":2992.691,"body":"get the data in those other tables."},{"startTime":2992.701,"endTime":2995.521,"body":"So there's some refactoring,"},{"startTime":2992.701,"endTime":2995.521,"body":"serious refactoring there, right?"},{"startTime":2995.631,"endTime":2997.341,"body":"So yeah, it's contextual, I think."},{"startTime":2997.491,"endTime":2999.501,"body":"So I I'm not in two minds about it."},{"startTime":2999.501,"endTime":3002.931,"body":"I think I'm looking at it"},{"startTime":2999.501,"endTime":3002.931,"body":"thinking how important is it?"},{"startTime":3002.961,"endTime":3004.611,"body":"How critical is it to fix this?"},{"startTime":3004.651,"endTime":3007.131,"body":"Is it now next later or never right?"},{"startTime":3007.191,"endTime":3009.321,"body":"And based on that, you"},{"startTime":3007.191,"endTime":3009.321,"body":"would have the story there."},{"startTime":3009.471,"endTime":3010.911,"body":"So you could tag these stories."},{"startTime":3011.111,"endTime":3013.971,"body":"And if it's in now it would"},{"startTime":3011.111,"endTime":3013.971,"body":"be in the next print or two."},{"startTime":3014.121,"endTime":3017.281,"body":"If it's next, it might be a"},{"startTime":3014.121,"endTime":3017.281,"body":"little bit further out later."},{"startTime":3017.291,"endTime":3019.591,"body":"It could be even further out,"},{"startTime":3017.291,"endTime":3019.591,"body":"but then that's where it stops."},{"startTime":3019.611,"endTime":3019.821,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3019.971,"endTime":3022.211,"body":". The you know, another"},{"startTime":3019.971,"endTime":3022.211,"body":"way to split stories."},{"startTime":3022.361,"endTime":3026.951,"body":"Is to split the exception"},{"startTime":3022.361,"endTime":3026.951,"body":"handling off into its own story."},{"startTime":3027.241,"endTime":3031.671,"body":"I'm not a huge fan of this cause"},{"startTime":3027.241,"endTime":3031.671,"body":"I, I like the kind of tenants"},{"startTime":3031.671,"endTime":3032.951,"body":"of test-driven development."},{"startTime":3033.261,"endTime":3036.151,"body":"And if you're doing that, you're kind"},{"startTime":3033.261,"endTime":3036.151,"body":"of handling the exceptions as you go."},{"startTime":3036.201,"endTime":3037.371,"body":"You never have exceptions."},{"startTime":3037.381,"endTime":3037.861,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3037.861,"endTime":3042.181,"body":"I remember we built a system once"},{"startTime":3037.861,"endTime":3042.181,"body":"where it was a mobile first system."},{"startTime":3042.181,"endTime":3044.661,"body":"So everyone was using you"},{"startTime":3042.181,"endTime":3044.661,"body":"know, phones basically."},{"startTime":3044.811,"endTime":3050.071,"body":"And the system was everyone would"},{"startTime":3044.811,"endTime":3050.071,"body":"phone home to our, our, the company"},{"startTime":3050.221,"endTime":3055.831,"body":"our API, but our API had integrations"},{"startTime":3050.221,"endTime":3055.831,"body":"and hooks for certain functions out"},{"startTime":3055.841,"endTime":3058.531,"body":"to the It was a B2B to C application."},{"startTime":3058.761,"endTime":3065.591,"body":"So our, our company's software"},{"startTime":3058.761,"endTime":3065.591,"body":"had hooks out to companies APIs."},{"startTime":3065.921,"endTime":3068.611,"body":"So basically you would phone our API."},{"startTime":3068.901,"endTime":3074.391,"body":"And our API would contact, uh, the"},{"startTime":3068.901,"endTime":3074.391,"body":"company that you work for is API."},{"startTime":3074.541,"endTime":3078.661,"body":"And if the company you work for is API"},{"startTime":3074.541,"endTime":3078.661,"body":"was slow or unresponsive or whatever,"},{"startTime":3078.711,"endTime":3081.741,"body":"there would be no indication to you"},{"startTime":3078.711,"endTime":3081.741,"body":"that like, Oh, it's, it's your company."},{"startTime":3081.741,"endTime":3082.471,"body":"Who's at fault."},{"startTime":3082.591,"endTime":3083.261,"body":"Yeah, not us."},{"startTime":3083.281,"endTime":3085.021,"body":"It would just be like,"},{"startTime":3083.281,"endTime":3085.021,"body":"well, you're saying, yeah."},{"startTime":3085.301,"endTime":3089.141,"body":"So like that, that, that particular"},{"startTime":3085.301,"endTime":3089.141,"body":"one, I remember we went through a lot of"},{"startTime":3089.141,"endTime":3095.811,"body":"hassle with watching the component APIs"},{"startTime":3089.141,"endTime":3095.811,"body":"the, the, the dependent APIs for uptime."},{"startTime":3095.811,"endTime":3097.154,"body":"So w w we were doing a"},{"startTime":3095.811,"endTime":3097.154,"body":"lot of uptime monitoring."},{"startTime":3097.154,"endTime":3098.921,"body":"So we were doing a lot"},{"startTime":3097.154,"endTime":3098.921,"body":"of uptime monitoring."},{"startTime":3099.071,"endTime":3104.161,"body":"Of third party APIs, basically"},{"startTime":3099.071,"endTime":3104.161,"body":"that we depended on because we look"},{"startTime":3104.171,"endTime":3108.661,"body":"bad if other companies, APIs that"},{"startTime":3104.171,"endTime":3108.661,"body":"we had no control over went down."},{"startTime":3108.861,"endTime":3111.811,"body":"So it's exception handling, but if"},{"startTime":3108.861,"endTime":3111.811,"body":"you were building a system for the"},{"startTime":3111.811,"endTime":3113.611,"body":"first time, you would say, the mobile."},{"startTime":3113.876,"endTime":3117.446,"body":"Users contact our API and"},{"startTime":3113.876,"endTime":3117.446,"body":"get the response back."},{"startTime":3117.596,"endTime":3121.406,"body":"And then you could look in the, in"},{"startTime":3117.596,"endTime":3121.406,"body":"the previous where we're talking about"},{"startTime":3121.406,"endTime":3125.876,"body":"role based or multiple operations"},{"startTime":3121.406,"endTime":3125.876,"body":"or workflow value, like where we're"},{"startTime":3125.876,"endTime":3127.966,"body":"talking about those stories, you"},{"startTime":3125.876,"endTime":3127.966,"body":"can say, well, we'll just send them"},{"startTime":3127.966,"endTime":3131.576,"body":"fake data back and we'll figure out"},{"startTime":3127.966,"endTime":3131.576,"body":"integrating with company APIs later."},{"startTime":3131.876,"endTime":3132.496,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":3132.706,"endTime":3135.676,"body":"But at a certain point, you're gonna"},{"startTime":3132.706,"endTime":3135.676,"body":"have to say,  if we don't get those"},{"startTime":3135.676,"endTime":3140.476,"body":"responses back in a reasonable amount"},{"startTime":3135.676,"endTime":3140.476,"body":"of time, We got to deal with that"},{"startTime":3140.546,"endTime":3142.106,"body":"and like, how do we deal with that?"},{"startTime":3142.106,"endTime":3142.676,"body":"And all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3142.926,"endTime":3144.626,"body":"You can put that off till later."},{"startTime":3144.726,"endTime":3147.656,"body":"And I guess that's this category"},{"startTime":3144.726,"endTime":3147.656,"body":"is putting all that off till later."},{"startTime":3147.966,"endTime":3149.156,"body":"You know, here we are."},{"startTime":3149.266,"endTime":3152.746,"body":"It's later like handling when those"},{"startTime":3149.266,"endTime":3152.746,"body":"systems don't come back in a timely"},{"startTime":3152.746,"endTime":3156.346,"body":"manner, handling when those systems"},{"startTime":3152.746,"endTime":3156.346,"body":"don't come back at all, handling when"},{"startTime":3156.346,"endTime":3158.406,"body":"those systems are just hard down."},{"startTime":3158.556,"endTime":3160.506,"body":"All those can go in different stories."},{"startTime":3160.656,"endTime":3162.096,"body":"This is my, yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":3162.096,"endTime":3165.586,"body":"Look, this reminds me of systems"},{"startTime":3162.096,"endTime":3165.586,"body":"that I've used where you have to"},{"startTime":3165.586,"endTime":3167.856,"body":"fill out umpteen gazillion fields."},{"startTime":3167.856,"endTime":3173.226,"body":"And at the end it just says next, you"},{"startTime":3167.856,"endTime":3173.226,"body":"click next and it goes reset to zero."},{"startTime":3173.566,"endTime":3177.696,"body":"So this is a good example of, of"},{"startTime":3173.566,"endTime":3177.696,"body":"carving out stories by exception,"},{"startTime":3177.796,"endTime":3180.286,"body":"there are lots of other examples"},{"startTime":3177.796,"endTime":3180.286,"body":"like this as well, right?"},{"startTime":3180.286,"endTime":3183.006,"body":"So a timeout stories, for example, right?"},{"startTime":3183.236,"endTime":3184.336,"body":"Stories where."},{"startTime":3184.491,"endTime":3189.061,"body":"You get failures, like just there's no,"},{"startTime":3184.491,"endTime":3189.061,"body":"there's no success in trying to get to"},{"startTime":3189.061,"endTime":3193.731,"body":"a certain web page four or fours or four"},{"startTime":3189.061,"endTime":3193.731,"body":"tens or whatever, whatever it is, right?"},{"startTime":3193.731,"endTime":3193.911,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3194.061,"endTime":3197.041,"body":"You could do things there, but in"},{"startTime":3194.061,"endTime":3197.041,"body":"your example, you have complexity"},{"startTime":3197.051,"endTime":3200.151,"body":"because you're not just dealing"},{"startTime":3197.051,"endTime":3200.151,"body":"with your own environment."},{"startTime":3200.161,"endTime":3204.281,"body":"You're dealing with another set, another"},{"startTime":3200.161,"endTime":3204.281,"body":"environment, the customer's environment"},{"startTime":3204.281,"endTime":3209.271,"body":"or, or the B2B, the B second B in that,"},{"startTime":3204.281,"endTime":3209.271,"body":"in that scenario, how would you do that?"},{"startTime":3209.271,"endTime":3209.481,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3209.481,"endTime":3210.221,"body":"You would have to make."},{"startTime":3210.451,"endTime":3214.131,"body":"Some guesses and say, or assumptions"},{"startTime":3210.451,"endTime":3214.131,"body":"and say, if we don't get a response back"},{"startTime":3214.151,"endTime":3218.621,"body":"within X, six seconds, eight seconds"},{"startTime":3214.151,"endTime":3218.621,"body":"then we would simply say, please wait."},{"startTime":3218.771,"endTime":3219.101,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3219.401,"endTime":3221.551,"body":"And then try again, maybe the same cycle."},{"startTime":3221.551,"endTime":3223.501,"body":"So 16 seconds now, and"},{"startTime":3221.551,"endTime":3223.501,"body":"then what do you do?"},{"startTime":3223.651,"endTime":3226.921,"body":"So there's a lot of these discussions"},{"startTime":3223.651,"endTime":3226.921,"body":"that need to happen, but all of these"},{"startTime":3226.941,"endTime":3231.861,"body":"different things could lead to scenarios"},{"startTime":3226.941,"endTime":3231.861,"body":"that you can carve out as user stories."},{"startTime":3232.011,"endTime":3232.311,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3232.541,"endTime":3233.821,"body":"And, and sequence those."},{"startTime":3233.971,"endTime":3236.931,"body":"Earlier on the podcast, we talked"},{"startTime":3233.971,"endTime":3236.931,"body":"about I don't remember if it was"},{"startTime":3236.931,"endTime":3241.301,"body":"complex interface, but we talked about"},{"startTime":3236.931,"endTime":3241.301,"body":"chat GPTs interface . You open up the"},{"startTime":3241.301,"endTime":3245.911,"body":"interface and you submit your question"},{"startTime":3241.301,"endTime":3245.911,"body":"or your prompt or whatever it is."},{"startTime":3246.061,"endTime":3249.591,"body":"And then, it adds your prompt into"},{"startTime":3246.061,"endTime":3249.591,"body":"the left menu of the different"},{"startTime":3249.591,"endTime":3250.531,"body":"prompts that you submitted."},{"startTime":3250.841,"endTime":3254.251,"body":"I particularly pick on open AI"},{"startTime":3250.841,"endTime":3254.251,"body":"because I don't like them very much."},{"startTime":3254.471,"endTime":3259.566,"body":"And also they're, they tend to get"},{"startTime":3254.471,"endTime":3259.566,"body":"overloaded through the workday for the"},{"startTime":3259.856,"endTime":3264.266,"body":"not paid version, which is, somebody"},{"startTime":3259.856,"endTime":3264.266,"body":"told me at a network event, it was like"},{"startTime":3264.296,"endTime":3267.566,"body":"20 something dollars a month or 20 bucks"},{"startTime":3264.296,"endTime":3267.566,"body":"a month or 1999 a month or something."},{"startTime":3267.896,"endTime":3272.076,"body":"That seems ridiculous for,"},{"startTime":3267.896,"endTime":3272.076,"body":"Access to the model for a static."},{"startTime":3272.276,"endTime":3276.306,"body":"That seems crazy because it is a static"},{"startTime":3272.276,"endTime":3276.306,"body":"model you get to the next version I loaded"},{"startTime":3276.676,"endTime":3280.736,"body":"25 in the Claude and I like that that"},{"startTime":3276.676,"endTime":3280.736,"body":"like it cost me 22 cents for 10 million"},{"startTime":3280.736,"endTime":3285.056,"body":"tokens It seems ridiculous to pay 20 a"},{"startTime":3280.736,"endTime":3285.056,"body":"month for a service fee when I've just"},{"startTime":3285.056,"endTime":3287.481,"body":"paid 25 for I'm pretty sure my entire life"},{"startTime":3287.631,"endTime":3291.011,"body":"so for the interface like what"},{"startTime":3287.631,"endTime":3291.011,"body":"happens when you submit to the"},{"startTime":3291.011,"endTime":3295.121,"body":"model for an answer and it's overly"},{"startTime":3291.011,"endTime":3295.121,"body":"busy and it can't answer you?"},{"startTime":3295.291,"endTime":3299.051,"body":"The cool thing about this category is"},{"startTime":3295.291,"endTime":3299.051,"body":"it, you can probably handle this in a"},{"startTime":3299.061,"endTime":3303.361,"body":"graceful manner that actually ends up"},{"startTime":3299.061,"endTime":3303.361,"body":"on the Kano model of being a delighter."},{"startTime":3303.511,"endTime":3307.111,"body":"You know, you can say like, Oh, the"},{"startTime":3303.511,"endTime":3307.111,"body":"model is overloaded right now but, but"},{"startTime":3307.121,"endTime":3310.541,"body":"I'm going to take your session and I'm"},{"startTime":3307.121,"endTime":3310.541,"body":"going to put it on the left and I'm"},{"startTime":3310.541,"endTime":3312.011,"body":"going to show a little spinning wheel."},{"startTime":3312.161,"endTime":3315.451,"body":"And I'm going to keep submitting"},{"startTime":3312.161,"endTime":3315.451,"body":"it until it goes through for you."},{"startTime":3315.741,"endTime":3319.441,"body":"When you click on it, maybe I'll just"},{"startTime":3315.741,"endTime":3319.441,"body":"say like, Hey, I submitted your question."},{"startTime":3319.591,"endTime":3321.081,"body":"The model's really busy right now."},{"startTime":3321.231,"endTime":3324.281,"body":"And we'll, we'll we'll process"},{"startTime":3321.231,"endTime":3324.281,"body":"it whenever it's better."},{"startTime":3324.281,"endTime":3325.581,"body":"I can give you a timeframe to say like."},{"startTime":3325.731,"endTime":3329.971,"body":"You know, Oh, building the old windows,"},{"startTime":3325.731,"endTime":3329.971,"body":"I was gonna say, remember windows three"},{"startTime":3329.971,"endTime":3332.401,"body":"one, where it was like 10 seconds left."},{"startTime":3332.401,"endTime":3332.621,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3332.621,"endTime":3333.551,"body":"34 seconds."},{"startTime":3333.751,"endTime":3334.201,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":3334.201,"endTime":3334.451,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3335.091,"endTime":3337.901,"body":"I remember those very well from"},{"startTime":3335.091,"endTime":3337.901,"body":"five seconds to 34 seconds."},{"startTime":3337.901,"endTime":3338.251,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3338.311,"endTime":3338.881,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3339.031,"endTime":3342.061,"body":"In this example though it could,"},{"startTime":3339.031,"endTime":3342.061,"body":"it could be very graceful, right?"},{"startTime":3342.071,"endTime":3342.661,"body":"It could say."},{"startTime":3342.886,"endTime":3346.616,"body":"You know, we'll be, we'll expect a"},{"startTime":3342.886,"endTime":3346.616,"body":"response within eight and 20 seconds."},{"startTime":3346.626,"endTime":3348.676,"body":"That's a range rather than 14."},{"startTime":3348.706,"endTime":3352.206,"body":"So it's like, it's better to not"},{"startTime":3348.706,"endTime":3352.206,"body":"have to have separate stories"},{"startTime":3352.346,"endTime":3354.426,"body":"because you've handled this in the"},{"startTime":3352.346,"endTime":3354.426,"body":"test-driven development or whatever."},{"startTime":3354.426,"endTime":3358.526,"body":"But in the case where you do, because"},{"startTime":3354.426,"endTime":3358.526,"body":"you, maybe you have some hard timeouts,"},{"startTime":3358.736,"endTime":3361.726,"body":"you're integrating with other systems"},{"startTime":3358.736,"endTime":3361.726,"body":"or you have a model basically behind"},{"startTime":3361.726,"endTime":3364.826,"body":"the scenes that may be taxed or not, and"},{"startTime":3361.726,"endTime":3364.826,"body":"you don't know when you're submitting."},{"startTime":3364.826,"endTime":3365.126,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3365.276,"endTime":3368.266,"body":"You have some interesting things"},{"startTime":3365.276,"endTime":3368.266,"body":"you can do with a story like"},{"startTime":3368.266,"endTime":3372.946,"body":"this to handle the exceptions"},{"startTime":3368.266,"endTime":3372.946,"body":"that could entertain your users."},{"startTime":3372.946,"endTime":3376.226,"body":"I mean, I like, I'm trying to think"},{"startTime":3372.946,"endTime":3376.226,"body":"like there's a, there's an interface"},{"startTime":3376.226,"endTime":3377.986,"body":"that it's not a spinning icon."},{"startTime":3377.996,"endTime":3379.226,"body":"It's like a little game."},{"startTime":3379.376,"endTime":3382.206,"body":"In the browser while, while"},{"startTime":3379.376,"endTime":3382.206,"body":"you wait on the operation."},{"startTime":3382.206,"endTime":3382.916,"body":"I can't remember that."},{"startTime":3383.196,"endTime":3384.506,"body":"I wish I could remember what it was."},{"startTime":3384.716,"endTime":3387.746,"body":"Oh, come across scenarios like that,"},{"startTime":3384.716,"endTime":3387.746,"body":"where it's more of a distraction."},{"startTime":3387.756,"endTime":3390.436,"body":"You're looking at something you"},{"startTime":3387.756,"endTime":3390.436,"body":"forget that you're actually waiting."},{"startTime":3390.466,"endTime":3390.846,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3390.846,"endTime":3392.806,"body":"You're looking at something"},{"startTime":3390.846,"endTime":3392.806,"body":"doing backflips or something."},{"startTime":3393.096,"endTime":3394.366,"body":"I wish I could remember what it was."},{"startTime":3394.566,"endTime":3397.206,"body":"If you can remember what it was in the"},{"startTime":3394.566,"endTime":3397.206,"body":"comments please tell me what it was."},{"startTime":3397.466,"endTime":3397.956,"body":"I can't, I can't."},{"startTime":3397.956,"endTime":3398.156,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3398.156,"endTime":3399.286,"body":"For both of you that are listening."},{"startTime":3399.436,"endTime":3402.246,"body":"The last category that we have to"},{"startTime":3399.436,"endTime":3402.246,"body":"talk about it, but believe it or not,"},{"startTime":3402.246,"endTime":3403.226,"body":"we're through all the categories."},{"startTime":3403.236,"endTime":3407.556,"body":"The last, last category we have to talk"},{"startTime":3403.236,"endTime":3407.556,"body":"about is, is non functional requirements."},{"startTime":3407.706,"endTime":3412.506,"body":"I'm talking, load testing, performance"},{"startTime":3407.706,"endTime":3412.506,"body":"testing, anything with alerting or"},{"startTime":3412.566,"endTime":3416.396,"body":"back of the house type of alerting"},{"startTime":3412.566,"endTime":3416.396,"body":"type of stuff like that any NFRs"},{"startTime":3416.726,"endTime":3417.966,"body":"writing stories for that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3418.166,"endTime":3419.856,"body":"So you can break this stuff out."},{"startTime":3419.876,"endTime":3422.946,"body":"Yeah, I honestly, this is probably the"},{"startTime":3419.876,"endTime":3422.946,"body":"easiest category or everything we talked"},{"startTime":3422.946,"endTime":3424.236,"body":"about, cause a lot of this stuff ends up."},{"startTime":3424.446,"endTime":3428.966,"body":"Actually being broken out as its own"},{"startTime":3424.446,"endTime":3428.966,"body":"story, the load testing or performance"},{"startTime":3428.966,"endTime":3431.006,"body":"testing, your app usually gets its own."},{"startTime":3431.156,"endTime":3433.026,"body":"Little segment for you to play around in."},{"startTime":3433.026,"endTime":3434.016,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":3434.016,"endTime":3435.076,"body":"This one is an easy one."},{"startTime":3435.126,"endTime":3437.656,"body":"And it can even be things like,"},{"startTime":3435.126,"endTime":3437.656,"body":"oh, we're just talking about"},{"startTime":3437.686,"endTime":3439.156,"body":"response times and things like that."},{"startTime":3439.156,"endTime":3442.706,"body":"It's just make it work first"},{"startTime":3439.156,"endTime":3442.706,"body":"and then make it work within"},{"startTime":3442.746,"endTime":3444.196,"body":"some five second response time."},{"startTime":3444.196,"endTime":3445.306,"body":"So bolt that in."},{"startTime":3445.456,"endTime":3448.906,"body":"Again, in an ideal world, you would build"},{"startTime":3445.456,"endTime":3448.906,"body":"it so that it works, but that's in an"},{"startTime":3448.906,"endTime":3452.786,"body":"ideal world, you want to try and get to"},{"startTime":3448.906,"endTime":3452.786,"body":"some kind of proof of concept quickly."},{"startTime":3452.936,"endTime":3453.886,"body":"So, yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":3454.136,"endTime":3456.526,"body":"That, that was the, the"},{"startTime":3454.136,"endTime":3456.526,"body":"workflow through the system."},{"startTime":3456.526,"endTime":3459.086,"body":"Like you should get to get the"},{"startTime":3456.526,"endTime":3459.086,"body":"valuable workflow working first."},{"startTime":3459.376,"endTime":3462.846,"body":"And let's say that you're grouping"},{"startTime":3459.376,"endTime":3462.846,"body":"something for a summarization for an"},{"startTime":3462.846,"endTime":3466.956,"body":"LLM Oh, I want to send all of these"},{"startTime":3462.846,"endTime":3466.956,"body":"documents through for summarization."},{"startTime":3466.986,"endTime":3467.246,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3467.246,"endTime":3468.436,"body":"Well, the summarization takes."},{"startTime":3468.586,"endTime":3470.026,"body":"50 seconds on average."},{"startTime":3470.176,"endTime":3472.396,"body":"I mean, like how long is"},{"startTime":3470.176,"endTime":3472.396,"body":"the appropriate wait time?"},{"startTime":3472.566,"endTime":3476.126,"body":"I was talking about, like you, you do"},{"startTime":3472.566,"endTime":3476.126,"body":"your chat dbt interface and then it"},{"startTime":3476.376,"endTime":3479.206,"body":"loads the session and it says, Hey,"},{"startTime":3476.376,"endTime":3479.206,"body":"when it's ready, we'll let you know."},{"startTime":3479.356,"endTime":3479.566,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3479.626,"endTime":3482.306,"body":"If you're not doing something"},{"startTime":3479.626,"endTime":3482.306,"body":"like that, like how long."},{"startTime":3482.456,"endTime":3486.106,"body":"Is appropriate for a user looking"},{"startTime":3482.456,"endTime":3486.106,"body":"at the screen, five seconds,"},{"startTime":3486.186,"endTime":3487.396,"body":"eight seconds, 10 seconds."},{"startTime":3487.446,"endTime":3488.506,"body":"It's not very long."},{"startTime":3488.506,"endTime":3489.376,"body":"It's not very long."},{"startTime":3489.376,"endTime":3489.986,"body":"Yeah, it's probably a number."},{"startTime":3489.986,"endTime":3494.166,"body":"So if you can say, well, we want to"},{"startTime":3489.986,"endTime":3494.166,"body":"get the time under five seconds and"},{"startTime":3494.166,"endTime":3497.526,"body":"then your whole team kind of groans"},{"startTime":3494.166,"endTime":3497.526,"body":"and grumbles like, Ooh, five seconds."},{"startTime":3497.526,"endTime":3498.216,"body":"Oh my goodness."},{"startTime":3498.366,"endTime":3499.766,"body":"It takes 30 seconds."},{"startTime":3499.796,"endTime":3501.626,"body":"Now five seconds would be, Oh my goodness."},{"startTime":3501.626,"endTime":3502.666,"body":"What can, what are we going to do?"},{"startTime":3502.996,"endTime":3506.676,"body":"Like, okay, well maybe I'll break"},{"startTime":3502.996,"endTime":3506.676,"body":"that story out as a separate story."},{"startTime":3506.676,"endTime":3506.691,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3506.841,"endTime":3509.871,"body":"We're okay with the 30 seconds"},{"startTime":3506.841,"endTime":3509.871,"body":"now because reducing 30 seconds"},{"startTime":3509.871,"endTime":3511.411,"body":"becomes a task in and of itself."},{"startTime":3511.431,"endTime":3512.261,"body":"We'll put that over here."},{"startTime":3512.411,"endTime":3515.051,"body":"But the main thing is, okay, we"},{"startTime":3512.411,"endTime":3515.051,"body":"know it's going to take 30 seconds."},{"startTime":3515.051,"endTime":3518.711,"body":"What can we do in the current"},{"startTime":3515.051,"endTime":3518.711,"body":"30 seconds to make it more."},{"startTime":3518.861,"endTime":3520.011,"body":"Painless, right?"},{"startTime":3520.211,"endTime":3521.021,"body":"Make it palatable."},{"startTime":3521.311,"endTime":3521.331,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3521.331,"endTime":3522.071,"body":"Entertaining."},{"startTime":3522.081,"endTime":3522.501,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":3522.501,"endTime":3523.161,"body":"You know, yeah."},{"startTime":3523.421,"endTime":3523.731,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3523.801,"endTime":3524.381,"body":"Tolerable."},{"startTime":3524.621,"endTime":3524.741,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3524.781,"endTime":3525.221,"body":"Tolerable."},{"startTime":3525.241,"endTime":3525.541,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3525.641,"endTime":3529.341,"body":"In some cases you may not even know the"},{"startTime":3525.641,"endTime":3529.341,"body":"team may not even know what it takes to"},{"startTime":3529.341,"endTime":3531.211,"body":"get it down to the five seconds, right?"},{"startTime":3531.271,"endTime":3533.931,"body":"So they may have to do things"},{"startTime":3531.271,"endTime":3533.931,"body":"like scaling scale testing,"},{"startTime":3533.951,"endTime":3534.951,"body":"pressure tests and whatever."},{"startTime":3535.241,"endTime":3536.321,"body":"So yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":3536.361,"endTime":3537.281,"body":"I think this is good."},{"startTime":3537.431,"endTime":3540.341,"body":"It's an art form though,"},{"startTime":3537.431,"endTime":3540.341,"body":"to try and keep the user."},{"startTime":3540.491,"endTime":3543.321,"body":"You know, from being"},{"startTime":3540.491,"endTime":3543.321,"body":"frustrated at waiting."},{"startTime":3543.471,"endTime":3543.981,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":3543.981,"endTime":3547.461,"body":"So if you can think of ways that you've"},{"startTime":3543.981,"endTime":3547.461,"body":"seen let us know in the comments below,"},{"startTime":3547.611,"endTime":3550.281,"body":"well, we just gave you a plethora."},{"startTime":3550.431,"endTime":3550.791,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3550.791,"endTime":3551.461,"body":"I use plethora."},{"startTime":3551.751,"endTime":3555.101,"body":"We just gave you a plethora of"},{"startTime":3551.751,"endTime":3555.101,"body":"different ways to break stories down."},{"startTime":3555.441,"endTime":3558.171,"body":"Again, we, we started with"},{"startTime":3555.441,"endTime":3558.171,"body":"all, everything we just talked"},{"startTime":3558.181,"endTime":3559.431,"body":"about is a vertical slicing."},{"startTime":3559.431,"endTime":3562.931,"body":"I'm assuming you're, you're from start"},{"startTime":3559.431,"endTime":3562.931,"body":"to finish, you're going to production"},{"startTime":3562.931,"endTime":3564.421,"body":"with every single one of these stories."},{"startTime":3564.571,"endTime":3565.981,"body":"We gave you the invest acronym."},{"startTime":3566.001,"endTime":3568.271,"body":"I'm not super hung up"},{"startTime":3566.001,"endTime":3568.271,"body":"on the invest acronym."},{"startTime":3568.271,"endTime":3569.441,"body":"So feel free to forget that one."},{"startTime":3569.441,"endTime":3571.941,"body":"If you want, we're trying to make"},{"startTime":3569.441,"endTime":3571.941,"body":"all these stories, similar size."},{"startTime":3571.941,"endTime":3574.061,"body":"We're trying to break them"},{"startTime":3571.941,"endTime":3574.061,"body":"all down to a similar size."},{"startTime":3574.071,"endTime":3577.921,"body":"So, so your team kind of agrees"},{"startTime":3574.071,"endTime":3577.921,"body":"to move them along quickly."},{"startTime":3578.071,"endTime":3580.531,"body":"We give you a lot of different"},{"startTime":3578.071,"endTime":3580.531,"body":"categories, a lot of ideas."},{"startTime":3580.531,"endTime":3583.771,"body":"Hopefully you can take these"},{"startTime":3580.531,"endTime":3583.771,"body":"ideas and apply them directly in"},{"startTime":3583.771,"endTime":3585.221,"body":"your day to day with your team."},{"startTime":3585.371,"endTime":3585.611,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3585.611,"endTime":3589.061,"body":"And more stories that are of"},{"startTime":3585.611,"endTime":3589.061,"body":"smaller size is a good thing."},{"startTime":3589.381,"endTime":3593.821,"body":"And if there's any methods that we"},{"startTime":3589.381,"endTime":3593.821,"body":"didn't cover, let us know down below"},{"startTime":3593.821,"endTime":3595.861,"body":"and don't forget to like subscribe."},{"startTime":3595.911,"endTime":3596.341,"body":"That's right."}]}