{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"welcome to the arguing the Agile podcast"},{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"where enterprise business agility"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"coach Om Patel and me product manager"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"Brian Orlando debate the real world"},{"startTime":8.45,"endTime":10.54,"body":"challenges Agile professionals will face."},{"startTime":10.74,"endTime":12.329,"body":"We are not here to sell you anything."},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"We are here to argue about"},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"Agile so that you don't have to."},{"startTime":18.002,"endTime":20.812,"body":"If you read the book, Escaping"},{"startTime":18.002,"endTime":20.812,"body":"the Build Trap,, and if you read"},{"startTime":20.812,"endTime":23.482,"body":"any of the Marty Cagan books, you"},{"startTime":20.812,"endTime":23.482,"body":"know what the feature factory is."},{"startTime":23.761,"endTime":27.881,"body":"And once you get over the fear of change"},{"startTime":23.761,"endTime":27.881,"body":"and the fear of uncertainty, can I"},{"startTime":27.901,"endTime":29.271,"body":"live outside of the feature factory?"},{"startTime":29.271,"endTime":30.701,"body":"Can I learn all these new skills?"},{"startTime":30.701,"endTime":35.011,"body":"Can I change  and you've succeeded in"},{"startTime":30.701,"endTime":35.011,"body":"getting over that fear of change and"},{"startTime":35.011,"endTime":38.521,"body":"you escape the feature factory, Now"},{"startTime":35.011,"endTime":38.521,"body":"what you will be enlightened We're"},{"startTime":38.521,"endTime":40.851,"body":"gonna talk about Escaping from Alcatraz."},{"startTime":40.871,"endTime":41.631,"body":"I mean Feature factory."},{"startTime":41.651,"endTime":42.171,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":42.201,"endTime":42.581,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":42.721,"endTime":45.861,"body":"Again We're assuming that you've come"},{"startTime":42.721,"endTime":45.861,"body":"into some sort of enlightenment  a"},{"startTime":45.861,"endTime":49.201,"body":"door has been opened for you and"},{"startTime":45.861,"endTime":49.201,"body":"you see us a better way of working"},{"startTime":49.351,"endTime":51.081,"body":"and you're going full in on it."},{"startTime":51.141,"endTime":54.061,"body":"I'm not like, this is not going to"},{"startTime":51.141,"endTime":54.061,"body":"be the podcast about changing your"},{"startTime":54.061,"endTime":56.571,"body":"organization or anything like that."},{"startTime":56.711,"endTime":57.841,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":57.991,"endTime":61.541,"body":"the podcast idea kind of spawned from"},{"startTime":57.991,"endTime":61.541,"body":"a couple of conversations I had with"},{"startTime":61.541,"endTime":64.921,"body":"a couple of different people where"},{"startTime":61.541,"endTime":64.921,"body":"they came to the realization that"},{"startTime":64.921,"endTime":69.131,"body":"they had bad habits that they had"},{"startTime":64.921,"endTime":69.131,"body":"to break and that it was, it ended"},{"startTime":69.131,"endTime":73.222,"body":"up holding back their career at the"},{"startTime":69.131,"endTime":73.222,"body":"time until they broke the bad habits."},{"startTime":73.552,"endTime":73.792,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":73.802,"endTime":75.732,"body":"And I've been in this spot too, right?"},{"startTime":75.732,"endTime":76.362,"body":"I have bad habits."},{"startTime":76.372,"endTime":77.302,"body":"I know they're bad habits."},{"startTime":77.452,"endTime":79.402,"body":"Being self aware as a first step, right?"},{"startTime":79.412,"endTime":82.672,"body":"Cause then, then you can catch"},{"startTime":79.412,"endTime":82.672,"body":"yourself  and that step is harder"},{"startTime":82.672,"endTime":85.522,"body":"than it sounds for a lot of people"},{"startTime":82.672,"endTime":85.522,"body":"because you're in that comfort zone."},{"startTime":85.672,"endTime":89.732,"body":"You know, you do things day in, day"},{"startTime":85.672,"endTime":89.732,"body":"out, and it becomes the way you work."},{"startTime":89.882,"endTime":91.502,"body":"So unlearning that."},{"startTime":91.652,"endTime":96.662,"body":"Recognizes, sorry, requires a"},{"startTime":91.652,"endTime":96.662,"body":"conscious effort on one's part."},{"startTime":96.812,"endTime":97.572,"body":"I'm going to do this."},{"startTime":97.582,"endTime":99.432,"body":"It's in, it was, it's with intent."},{"startTime":99.452,"endTime":99.682,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":99.692,"endTime":100.882,"body":"You can get into it."},{"startTime":100.932,"endTime":103.472,"body":"my thoughts on what this looks"},{"startTime":100.932,"endTime":103.472,"body":"like in a feature factory?"},{"startTime":103.522,"endTime":107.272,"body":"The, the waiting around for someone"},{"startTime":103.522,"endTime":107.272,"body":"to hand you work for your architect."},{"startTime":107.547,"endTime":109.917,"body":"Or your senior engineer to"},{"startTime":107.547,"endTime":109.917,"body":"hand you work assignment."},{"startTime":109.947,"endTime":110.727,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":110.857,"endTime":111.257,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":111.407,"endTime":115.927,"body":"That's one there are others that"},{"startTime":111.407,"endTime":115.927,"body":"that we can get, get into as well."},{"startTime":116.077,"endTime":121.007,"body":"So working on something or a piece"},{"startTime":116.077,"endTime":121.007,"body":"of the, the product in isolation,"},{"startTime":121.057,"endTime":122.607,"body":"almost like in silo, right."},{"startTime":122.787,"endTime":123.117,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":123.267,"endTime":126.977,"body":"That's also a pretty bad thing, but if you"},{"startTime":123.267,"endTime":126.977,"body":"recognize that that's what you're doing"},{"startTime":127.007,"endTime":129.197,"body":"and you want out of that, what can you do?"},{"startTime":129.357,"endTime":133.037,"body":"The fact that you recognize that, I"},{"startTime":129.357,"endTime":133.037,"body":"think, is a milestone in and of itself."},{"startTime":133.187,"endTime":136.537,"body":"It allows you to say, here's the as"},{"startTime":133.187,"endTime":136.537,"body":"is, this is where I am right now."},{"startTime":136.687,"endTime":136.987,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":137.027,"endTime":141.957,"body":"And then you gotta figure out where to go"},{"startTime":137.027,"endTime":141.957,"body":"by recognizing the behaviors, the patterns"},{"startTime":141.957,"endTime":143.857,"body":"that got you to where you are, right?"},{"startTime":143.887,"endTime":144.917,"body":"That you're in currently."},{"startTime":145.067,"endTime":149.047,"body":"Once you recognize what they are,"},{"startTime":145.067,"endTime":149.047,"body":"you can then look to changing those."},{"startTime":149.237,"endTime":153.227,"body":"So you gotta pick which ones you're"},{"startTime":149.237,"endTime":153.227,"body":"working on first and then next, etc."},{"startTime":153.457,"endTime":154.317,"body":"First, next, later."},{"startTime":154.467,"endTime":158.677,"body":"Be open, be open to the fact that"},{"startTime":154.467,"endTime":158.677,"body":"there is a better way and have"},{"startTime":158.677,"endTime":162.437,"body":"an open mind essentially right to"},{"startTime":158.677,"endTime":162.437,"body":"new learning, new ways of working."},{"startTime":162.677,"endTime":165.837,"body":"Yeah, this, this is one that we were"},{"startTime":162.677,"endTime":165.837,"body":"talking about before the podcast started"},{"startTime":166.157,"endTime":170.637,"body":"about you want to leave the feature"},{"startTime":166.157,"endTime":170.637,"body":"factory and you want to go to a place"},{"startTime":170.637,"endTime":173.807,"body":"that treats you better and you have"},{"startTime":170.637,"endTime":173.807,"body":"better opportunities and, and you can"},{"startTime":173.807,"endTime":178.087,"body":"advance in your career, but you have"},{"startTime":173.807,"endTime":178.087,"body":"this bad habit where you, you find it"},{"startTime":178.097,"endTime":180.097,"body":"difficult to collaborate on work items."},{"startTime":180.377,"endTime":183.827,"body":"You know what ? You can't, you can't,"},{"startTime":180.377,"endTime":183.827,"body":"or maybe you, I think about I'm"},{"startTime":183.827,"endTime":188.607,"body":"specifically thinking about a culture I"},{"startTime":183.827,"endTime":188.607,"body":"had been part of where the peer review"},{"startTime":188.617,"endTime":194.097,"body":"process is an architect who doesn't"},{"startTime":188.617,"endTime":194.097,"body":"sit on your team, reviews every PR."},{"startTime":194.247,"endTime":197.597,"body":"So they may not know your customers"},{"startTime":194.247,"endTime":197.597,"body":"or why you're putting this PR up."},{"startTime":197.747,"endTime":201.497,"body":"So everything is all completely"},{"startTime":197.747,"endTime":201.497,"body":"asynchronous and, and you may"},{"startTime":201.497,"endTime":204.747,"body":"not have visibility into when"},{"startTime":201.497,"endTime":204.747,"body":"they're going to get to your PR."},{"startTime":204.997,"endTime":207.527,"body":"So they become more of"},{"startTime":204.997,"endTime":207.527,"body":"a, an obstacle, really."},{"startTime":207.527,"endTime":207.867,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":207.897,"endTime":208.197,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":208.477,"endTime":209.667,"body":"Stage gate at the minimum."},{"startTime":209.697,"endTime":209.997,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":210.057,"endTime":214.567,"body":"And then like going from that to a"},{"startTime":210.057,"endTime":214.567,"body":"company that either peers or peers when"},{"startTime":214.567,"endTime":215.737,"body":"they need it and that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":215.737,"endTime":219.357,"body":"So it was like, who the, the, the"},{"startTime":215.737,"endTime":219.357,"body":"PR, the mobbing that happens in"},{"startTime":219.357,"endTime":221.407,"body":"PR is kind of done on the fly."},{"startTime":221.557,"endTime":224.117,"body":"You know, on demand kind"},{"startTime":221.557,"endTime":224.117,"body":"of, it would be difficult."},{"startTime":224.267,"endTime":226.027,"body":"You know, to move from"},{"startTime":224.267,"endTime":226.027,"body":"one culture to another."},{"startTime":226.177,"endTime":226.827,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":226.827,"endTime":231.937,"body":"So in the, in the culture where you have"},{"startTime":226.827,"endTime":231.937,"body":"somebody who is of a authority position,"},{"startTime":231.947,"endTime":233.637,"body":"like the architect, for example, right."},{"startTime":233.637,"endTime":235.097,"body":"And they insist on looking at everything."},{"startTime":235.117,"endTime":236.057,"body":"It could be a tech lead."},{"startTime":236.057,"endTime":238.077,"body":"They are a bottleneck at that point."},{"startTime":238.097,"endTime":240.837,"body":"And, but for them to go to"},{"startTime":238.097,"endTime":240.837,"body":"the toward the other culture."},{"startTime":240.987,"endTime":241.117,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":241.117,"endTime":244.127,"body":"Well, for you to want"},{"startTime":241.117,"endTime":244.127,"body":"to do that, that's hard."},{"startTime":244.177,"endTime":245.377,"body":"pretend we're all sitting together, right?"},{"startTime":245.377,"endTime":246.497,"body":"We're all on a call."},{"startTime":246.507,"endTime":248.067,"body":"We're all on a zoom caller or whatever."},{"startTime":248.077,"endTime":249.777,"body":"Google meet teams, whatever you use."},{"startTime":249.967,"endTime":250.437,"body":"And."},{"startTime":250.587,"endTime":254.847,"body":"It could be intimidating sitting with"},{"startTime":250.587,"endTime":254.847,"body":"someone who's reviewing your code in"},{"startTime":254.847,"endTime":258.127,"body":"real time and giving you feedback and"},{"startTime":254.847,"endTime":258.127,"body":"real critique in real time, basically"},{"startTime":258.127,"endTime":263.807,"body":"on your code, because you've only"},{"startTime":258.127,"endTime":263.807,"body":"ever done PRs like this with nameless,"},{"startTime":263.807,"endTime":268.407,"body":"faceless or maybe they're not nameless,"},{"startTime":263.807,"endTime":268.407,"body":"faceless, maybe they're, you know the"},{"startTime":268.407,"endTime":271.577,"body":"architect that sits on the mountain"},{"startTime":268.407,"endTime":271.577,"body":"and they're they're going to give you"},{"startTime":271.607,"endTime":275.542,"body":"things and Send it back for work and"},{"startTime":271.607,"endTime":275.542,"body":"reject your they reject your changes."},{"startTime":275.542,"endTime":276.292,"body":"They reject your change."},{"startTime":276.472,"endTime":278.632,"body":"So that, that's what you,"},{"startTime":276.472,"endTime":278.632,"body":"you're expecting that, that."},{"startTime":278.782,"endTime":281.912,"body":"Rejection going into and then you"},{"startTime":278.782,"endTime":281.912,"body":"sit down with someone that's like,"},{"startTime":281.912,"endTime":283.932,"body":"no, I'm just trying to make trying"},{"startTime":281.912,"endTime":283.932,"body":"to help you make the code better."},{"startTime":283.932,"endTime":287.282,"body":"I'm trying to help you and it's"},{"startTime":283.932,"endTime":287.282,"body":"that attitude that feeling."},{"startTime":287.282,"endTime":287.602,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":287.602,"endTime":291.522,"body":"It's like people can feel that"},{"startTime":287.602,"endTime":291.522,"body":"it's liberating when you do."},{"startTime":291.672,"endTime":295.202,"body":"I feel it's liberating because"},{"startTime":291.672,"endTime":295.202,"body":"no longer is someone going to"},{"startTime":295.282,"endTime":296.982,"body":"admonish you for what you're doing."},{"startTime":297.132,"endTime":301.052,"body":"Suggestions are then more kind"},{"startTime":297.132,"endTime":301.052,"body":"of constructive rather than yeah."},{"startTime":301.052,"endTime":301.112,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":301.262,"endTime":301.942,"body":"The other way, right?"},{"startTime":301.942,"endTime":303.202,"body":"Which is what are you doing?"},{"startTime":303.272,"endTime":303.662,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":303.962,"endTime":308.242,"body":"But then on, on the part of the"},{"startTime":303.962,"endTime":308.242,"body":"developer wanting to move into that"},{"startTime":308.292,"endTime":314.572,"body":"kind of a change, I guess they have"},{"startTime":308.292,"endTime":314.572,"body":"to be open to accepting feedback."},{"startTime":314.662,"endTime":315.652,"body":"You have to be open to that."},{"startTime":315.652,"endTime":315.972,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":316.122,"endTime":319.802,"body":"The the funny thing about talking"},{"startTime":316.122,"endTime":319.802,"body":"about emotional intelligence, like"},{"startTime":319.832,"endTime":323.052,"body":"sub, sub, they're not really skills,"},{"startTime":319.832,"endTime":323.052,"body":"but sub skills, I guess they are"},{"startTime":323.052,"endTime":327.332,"body":"skills of emotional intelligence, like"},{"startTime":323.052,"endTime":327.332,"body":"the ability to take and give the, to"},{"startTime":327.332,"endTime":329.762,"body":"receive critique, to receive feedback."},{"startTime":329.762,"endTime":331.522,"body":"Specifically, let's talk"},{"startTime":329.762,"endTime":331.522,"body":"about receiving feedback."},{"startTime":331.672,"endTime":336.992,"body":"It that, that advancing that skill"},{"startTime":331.672,"endTime":336.992,"body":"in yourself Not super critical in"},{"startTime":336.992,"endTime":338.312,"body":"the feature factory, I would say."},{"startTime":338.462,"endTime":340.292,"body":"You're right, there's"},{"startTime":338.462,"endTime":340.292,"body":"no room for it, right?"},{"startTime":340.332,"endTime":343.672,"body":"Because in that environment, in that"},{"startTime":340.332,"endTime":343.672,"body":"culture Everything stopped down and"},{"startTime":343.882,"endTime":345.962,"body":"people are dictating to you essentially."},{"startTime":346.022,"endTime":347.122,"body":"I like the way you put that."},{"startTime":347.332,"endTime":350.782,"body":"There's no room for your"},{"startTime":347.332,"endTime":350.782,"body":"emotions in the feature factory."},{"startTime":350.932,"endTime":351.322,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":351.412,"endTime":352.482,"body":"You're just a cog in the machine."},{"startTime":352.662,"endTime":353.582,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":353.582,"endTime":354.682,"body":"You're just a cog in the machine."},{"startTime":354.682,"endTime":361.092,"body":"And the, usually the financial model"},{"startTime":354.682,"endTime":361.092,"body":"mirrors that attitude of we'll just"},{"startTime":361.142,"endTime":365.932,"body":"we'll have a, A gang of developers will"},{"startTime":361.142,"endTime":365.932,"body":"have 50 developers and we just throw"},{"startTime":365.932,"endTime":368.962,"body":"work and throw it at the architect"},{"startTime":365.932,"endTime":368.962,"body":"and the architect decides who's going"},{"startTime":368.962,"endTime":371.832,"body":"to work on it and they have their"},{"startTime":368.962,"endTime":371.832,"body":"favorite people and they have their"},{"startTime":371.832,"endTime":373.752,"body":"less favorite people or whatever."},{"startTime":373.902,"endTime":377.232,"body":"Yeah, , I think of when we think"},{"startTime":373.902,"endTime":377.232,"body":"about that model, I always think"},{"startTime":377.242,"endTime":378.522,"body":"about the developers is like."},{"startTime":378.732,"endTime":382.672,"body":"Almost prisoners and the architects"},{"startTime":378.732,"endTime":382.672,"body":"are the prison wardens showing maybe"},{"startTime":382.672,"endTime":386.072,"body":"a slice of pizza, dried up, crusty"},{"startTime":382.672,"endTime":386.072,"body":"pizza, and just get back to work."},{"startTime":386.222,"endTime":389.892,"body":"Otherwise known as development in"},{"startTime":386.222,"endTime":389.892,"body":"the nineties and early two thousands"},{"startTime":390.152,"endTime":392.362,"body":"right there, that was their model."},{"startTime":392.512,"endTime":396.312,"body":"But the first part of EI really"},{"startTime":392.512,"endTime":396.312,"body":"is self awareness, right?"},{"startTime":396.312,"endTime":400.052,"body":"So you've got to be aware that you"},{"startTime":396.312,"endTime":400.052,"body":"are the way you are, and then you"},{"startTime":400.052,"endTime":404.052,"body":"got to be aware that you want to make"},{"startTime":400.052,"endTime":404.052,"body":"an intentional, intentional change."},{"startTime":404.202,"endTime":407.152,"body":"Towards something better or"},{"startTime":404.202,"endTime":407.152,"body":"different, at least for now."},{"startTime":407.252,"endTime":408.462,"body":"You know, you think it's better."},{"startTime":408.462,"endTime":409.442,"body":"You don't know that yet."},{"startTime":409.592,"endTime":413.402,"body":"So you gotta be open and be somewhat"},{"startTime":409.592,"endTime":413.402,"body":"vulnerable to your point about asking"},{"startTime":413.602,"endTime":416.352,"body":"people for, for help, for feedback, right?"},{"startTime":416.442,"endTime":416.752,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":416.902,"endTime":417.172,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":417.172,"endTime":422.032,"body":"The interesting part about moving from the"},{"startTime":417.172,"endTime":422.032,"body":"feature factory mentality out to a more"},{"startTime":422.042,"endTime":426.652,"body":"durable team product model, I guess we'll"},{"startTime":422.042,"endTime":426.652,"body":"call it that because as Marty Cagan didn't"},{"startTime":426.652,"endTime":428.332,"body":"call it agile transformation, right?"},{"startTime":428.482,"endTime":432.172,"body":"But the interesting part about"},{"startTime":428.482,"endTime":432.172,"body":"moving  from a feature factory to a"},{"startTime":432.222,"endTime":436.182,"body":"product model here is if you were in"},{"startTime":432.222,"endTime":436.182,"body":"development in order to be promoted."},{"startTime":436.332,"endTime":440.872,"body":"Those skills that you need to develop"},{"startTime":436.332,"endTime":440.872,"body":"are these EI skills, the soft skills,"},{"startTime":440.912,"endTime":444.882,"body":"conflict resolution, your empathy, the"},{"startTime":440.912,"endTime":444.882,"body":"ability to take and give feedback the"},{"startTime":444.882,"endTime":448.982,"body":"ability to collaborate your ability"},{"startTime":444.882,"endTime":448.982,"body":"to, to communicate and, and I think"},{"startTime":448.992,"endTime":452.222,"body":"someone looking to leave the feature"},{"startTime":448.992,"endTime":452.222,"body":"factory, like looking to leave that"},{"startTime":452.222,"endTime":455.932,"body":"culture in a feature factory to say,"},{"startTime":452.222,"endTime":455.932,"body":"Oh, these skills are not, these skills"},{"startTime":455.932,"endTime":457.832,"body":"are not prized in the feature factory."},{"startTime":457.842,"endTime":459.482,"body":"Someone's going to listen to"},{"startTime":457.842,"endTime":459.482,"body":"this out of context and be like,"},{"startTime":459.522,"endTime":461.042,"body":"those skills were always prized."},{"startTime":461.192,"endTime":462.312,"body":"Sure, sure."},{"startTime":462.492,"endTime":466.172,"body":"But those skills are not prized in the"},{"startTime":462.492,"endTime":466.172,"body":"feature factory as much as they are in the"},{"startTime":466.452,"endTime":470.942,"body":"product model, in the collaborative very"},{"startTime":466.452,"endTime":470.942,"body":"flat organization type of product model."},{"startTime":471.262,"endTime":475.462,"body":"So you would, you, you, you may"},{"startTime":471.262,"endTime":475.462,"body":"not want to leave the feature"},{"startTime":475.462,"endTime":479.592,"body":"factory because you're afraid that,"},{"startTime":475.462,"endTime":479.592,"body":"your career has been stunted now."},{"startTime":479.742,"endTime":481.242,"body":"Because you never had"},{"startTime":479.742,"endTime":481.242,"body":"to develop these skills."},{"startTime":481.242,"endTime":483.912,"body":"No one was ever pushing you"},{"startTime":481.242,"endTime":483.912,"body":"to develop these skills."},{"startTime":483.972,"endTime":484.232,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":484.282,"endTime":487.982,"body":", so, so all along your career"},{"startTime":484.282,"endTime":487.982,"body":"thus far, only your hard skills"},{"startTime":487.982,"endTime":489.982,"body":"were assessed and valued, right?"},{"startTime":490.132,"endTime":492.552,"body":"And now you have to"},{"startTime":490.132,"endTime":492.552,"body":"learn these soft skills."},{"startTime":492.592,"endTime":492.872,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":493.032,"endTime":496.752,"body":"Often people's skills basically"},{"startTime":493.032,"endTime":496.752,"body":"dealing with others, right."},{"startTime":497.092,"endTime":499.922,"body":"And not just sitting there at a"},{"startTime":497.092,"endTime":499.922,"body":"keyboard, pounding out excellent code."},{"startTime":499.932,"endTime":499.952,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":500.272,"endTime":503.922,"body":"You know, the scary part about what"},{"startTime":500.272,"endTime":503.922,"body":"you just said is you, you work in"},{"startTime":503.922,"endTime":505.862,"body":"this teacher factory for 10 years."},{"startTime":506.012,"endTime":510.442,"body":"You're an expert at these skills or"},{"startTime":506.012,"endTime":510.442,"body":"whatever and then like new technology"},{"startTime":510.442,"endTime":512.312,"body":"comes along and Wipes that out."},{"startTime":512.322,"endTime":514.132,"body":"You know, I think of like"},{"startTime":512.322,"endTime":514.132,"body":"there was a point in the"},{"startTime":514.132,"endTime":515.882,"body":"market where God, what was the"},{"startTime":516.032,"endTime":518.082,"body":"I'm trying to think of a couple"},{"startTime":516.032,"endTime":518.082,"body":"technologies that got wiped."},{"startTime":518.082,"endTime":519.407,"body":"Did we hit that when?"},{"startTime":519.687,"endTime":521.207,"body":"Object oriented technologies came about."},{"startTime":521.407,"endTime":522.577,"body":"That's exactly what I was going to say."},{"startTime":522.577,"endTime":526.437,"body":"I was, I was going to point to the early"},{"startTime":522.577,"endTime":526.437,"body":"Microsoft VB language and stuff like that."},{"startTime":526.437,"endTime":529.477,"body":"Like that it was good for what it was"},{"startTime":526.437,"endTime":529.477,"body":"like automation and stuff like that."},{"startTime":529.477,"endTime":533.787,"body":"I remember way early in my career, we"},{"startTime":529.477,"endTime":533.787,"body":"were doing VB scripting for automation."},{"startTime":534.122,"endTime":537.192,"body":"And and then better languages came"},{"startTime":534.122,"endTime":537.192,"body":"along, better tools came along,"},{"startTime":537.192,"endTime":538.262,"body":"and all that stuff went away."},{"startTime":538.322,"endTime":540.992,"body":"The point is those skills"},{"startTime":538.322,"endTime":540.992,"body":"have a expiration on them."},{"startTime":541.142,"endTime":546.242,"body":"I remember telling people in QA until"},{"startTime":541.142,"endTime":546.242,"body":"when I was a when I was a manager in QA,"},{"startTime":546.392,"endTime":550.822,"body":"I remember telling them get ready to,"},{"startTime":546.392,"endTime":550.822,"body":"to, to like revolve your entire skill"},{"startTime":550.822,"endTime":555.682,"body":"set, evolve your entire skill set about"},{"startTime":550.822,"endTime":555.682,"body":"every three years, like the tools and"},{"startTime":555.732,"endTime":560.402,"body":"languages and things that you're using"},{"startTime":555.732,"endTime":560.402,"body":"now, day to day, three years will be 100"},{"startTime":560.402,"endTime":562.052,"body":"percent different, completely different."},{"startTime":562.202,"endTime":565.392,"body":"It's incredible how quick"},{"startTime":562.202,"endTime":565.392,"body":"that turnaround is really."},{"startTime":565.462,"endTime":569.532,"body":", I, I, when I, the reason for that"},{"startTime":565.462,"endTime":569.532,"body":"diatribe, the reason for that departure"},{"startTime":569.842,"endTime":573.642,"body":"was to say like, what, what you said"},{"startTime":569.842,"endTime":573.642,"body":"to me really scared me because I"},{"startTime":573.642,"endTime":577.282,"body":"really believe there are people that"},{"startTime":573.642,"endTime":577.282,"body":"are saying Hey, I'm, I'm an expert."},{"startTime":577.342,"endTime":578.732,"body":"Why would I want to leave"},{"startTime":577.342,"endTime":578.732,"body":"the feature factory?"},{"startTime":578.842,"endTime":580.562,"body":"It's comfortable making good money."},{"startTime":580.712,"endTime":582.942,"body":"You know, I can't, I understand"},{"startTime":580.712,"endTime":582.942,"body":"what we're doing with our"},{"startTime":582.942,"endTime":584.052,"body":"software, understand our products."},{"startTime":584.202,"endTime":584.722,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":584.872,"endTime":587.492,"body":"Well, unless you're like three"},{"startTime":584.872,"endTime":587.492,"body":"years away from retirement,"},{"startTime":587.502,"endTime":588.802,"body":"that's not a good strategy."},{"startTime":588.952,"endTime":591.332,"body":"You know, you got to keep"},{"startTime":588.952,"endTime":591.332,"body":"abreast of what's coming next."},{"startTime":591.672,"endTime":594.522,"body":"At least be aware of it and"},{"startTime":591.672,"endTime":594.522,"body":"then make a plan for yourself."},{"startTime":594.692,"endTime":597.932,"body":"Yeah, , the competitiveness here"},{"startTime":594.692,"endTime":597.932,"body":"is, you can say, well, , there'll"},{"startTime":597.932,"endTime":599.402,"body":"always be a need for these skills."},{"startTime":599.422,"endTime":602.122,"body":"There'll always be a need for this,"},{"startTime":599.422,"endTime":602.122,"body":"this NET development, the old school"},{"startTime":602.322,"endTime":603.942,"body":"NET development the original COBOL."},{"startTime":604.542,"endTime":605.072,"body":"Yeah, COBOL."},{"startTime":605.092,"endTime":605.572,"body":"It's still around."},{"startTime":605.572,"endTime":605.832,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":605.832,"endTime":606.132,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":606.132,"endTime":607.162,"body":"Sure, it's still around."},{"startTime":607.312,"endTime":610.992,"body":"But the developers that are getting"},{"startTime":607.312,"endTime":610.992,"body":"those jobs, first of all, assuming that"},{"startTime":611.142,"endTime":614.432,"body":"they're, they've not just been there for"},{"startTime":611.142,"endTime":614.432,"body":"20 years and they're not going anywhere."},{"startTime":614.482,"endTime":614.822,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":614.972,"endTime":616.302,"body":"Assuming they have spots."},{"startTime":616.452,"endTime":620.392,"body":"Those developers that are getting those"},{"startTime":616.452,"endTime":620.392,"body":"jobs are masters of the technology"},{"startTime":620.542,"endTime":622.442,"body":"and they've got these skills."},{"startTime":622.692,"endTime":622.912,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":623.062,"endTime":623.312,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":623.642,"endTime":624.682,"body":"I think you have to have."},{"startTime":624.832,"endTime":629.322,"body":"These skills in order to ensure your"},{"startTime":624.832,"endTime":629.322,"body":"longevity because the hard skills,"},{"startTime":629.322,"endTime":630.832,"body":"they're going to churn very quickly."},{"startTime":630.842,"endTime":632.752,"body":"And this is the funny thing"},{"startTime":630.842,"endTime":632.752,"body":"is we're talking a lot about"},{"startTime":632.762,"endTime":636.372,"body":"developers on this podcast, which"},{"startTime":632.762,"endTime":636.372,"body":"is, it's interesting, but also"},{"startTime":636.372,"endTime":640.182,"body":"I started the podcast by talking about"},{"startTime":636.372,"endTime":640.182,"body":"a product manager, leaving the feature"},{"startTime":640.182,"endTime":644.022,"body":"factory a conflict resolution, empathy,"},{"startTime":640.182,"endTime":644.022,"body":"the ability to take and give feedback."},{"startTime":644.172,"endTime":645.962,"body":"Especially take feedback, right?"},{"startTime":646.052,"endTime":649.692,"body":"And not take it personally , I don't even"},{"startTime":646.052,"endTime":649.692,"body":"know how you can be successful in product."},{"startTime":649.722,"endTime":650.902,"body":"I don't know how you get hired!"},{"startTime":651.052,"endTime":652.372,"body":"I could see it in the feature factory."},{"startTime":652.382,"endTime":655.512,"body":", your domain, we talk about product"},{"startTime":652.382,"endTime":655.512,"body":"management, hiring, you get hired"},{"startTime":655.512,"endTime":657.712,"body":"because you're a business domain expert."},{"startTime":657.752,"endTime":657.982,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":658.292,"endTime":658.652,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":658.722,"endTime":662.462,"body":"Well, you now you realize years"},{"startTime":658.722,"endTime":662.462,"body":"later that you want out of this"},{"startTime":662.462,"endTime":663.752,"body":"feature factory trap, right?"},{"startTime":663.752,"endTime":663.992,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":664.072,"endTime":664.442,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":664.492,"endTime":666.772,"body":"Well, maybe now you know how"},{"startTime":664.492,"endTime":666.772,"body":"development works and doesn't work."},{"startTime":666.922,"endTime":670.192,"body":"And whereas before when you were a product"},{"startTime":666.922,"endTime":670.192,"body":"manager in a feature factory because"},{"startTime":670.192,"endTime":673.212,"body":"you're a domain expert, and you just"},{"startTime":670.192,"endTime":673.212,"body":"walk in the room and say, no, I've got"},{"startTime":673.212,"endTime":675.972,"body":"to have it all by next week on Tuesday."},{"startTime":676.122,"endTime":676.732,"body":"Just get it done."},{"startTime":676.732,"endTime":680.582,"body":"I don't care how, I don't understand"},{"startTime":676.732,"endTime":680.582,"body":"why it takes so long to do this"},{"startTime":680.592,"endTime":681.822,"body":"and that  you just didn't know."},{"startTime":681.972,"endTime":684.742,"body":"But, but you're the bull in the China"},{"startTime":681.972,"endTime":684.742,"body":"shop because you got all these developers"},{"startTime":684.742,"endTime":687.252,"body":"who they don't want to Kind of don't"},{"startTime":684.742,"endTime":687.252,"body":"want to challenge you and then or"},{"startTime":687.252,"endTime":690.632,"body":"maybe they're contracting, they really"},{"startTime":687.252,"endTime":690.632,"body":"don't want to challenge you right now."},{"startTime":690.632,"endTime":693.432,"body":"You learned that this is not, this"},{"startTime":690.632,"endTime":693.432,"body":"is not the best way to make quality."},{"startTime":693.432,"endTime":694.892,"body":"This is not the best"},{"startTime":693.432,"endTime":694.892,"body":"way to make a product."},{"startTime":694.892,"endTime":697.892,"body":"There's not the best it's not a"},{"startTime":694.892,"endTime":697.892,"body":"good way in any way, shape or form"},{"startTime":698.042,"endTime":699.322,"body":"you've learned all these things."},{"startTime":699.472,"endTime":700.092,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"startTime":700.112,"endTime":700.472,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":700.472,"endTime":702.452,"body":"I think it's just across the board."},{"startTime":702.472,"endTime":706.412,"body":", we talked about developers and product"},{"startTime":702.472,"endTime":706.412,"body":"managers, but you know, testers, anybody,"},{"startTime":706.412,"endTime":708.052,"body":"scrum masters, for that matter, coaches."},{"startTime":708.092,"endTime":712.852,"body":", you have to have these skills"},{"startTime":708.092,"endTime":712.852,"body":"to a degree or another, right?"},{"startTime":712.982,"endTime":714.862,"body":"Especially in modern ways of working."},{"startTime":715.032,"endTime":716.592,"body":"You could be in banking."},{"startTime":716.742,"endTime":720.912,"body":"You still need to have These skills"},{"startTime":716.742,"endTime":720.912,"body":"because without collaborating with"},{"startTime":720.912,"endTime":722.482,"body":"others, you can't do it all alone."},{"startTime":722.632,"endTime":722.902,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":722.982,"endTime":727.122,"body":"let's talk about collaborating right"},{"startTime":722.982,"endTime":727.122,"body":"quick, because in the feature factory,"},{"startTime":727.272,"endTime":729.722,"body":"you, you, like you don't collaborate."},{"startTime":729.722,"endTime":734.132,"body":", maybe if you're the architect on high"},{"startTime":729.722,"endTime":734.132,"body":"or the program lead or something like"},{"startTime":734.132,"endTime":738.132,"body":"that, maybe you'll go across programs to"},{"startTime":734.132,"endTime":738.132,"body":"collaborate, but , collaborate only so far"},{"startTime":738.132,"endTime":740.072,"body":"as you can claim ownership of something."},{"startTime":740.222,"endTime":740.492,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":740.522,"endTime":741.892,"body":"We'll complain about dependencies."},{"startTime":741.892,"endTime":742.102,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":742.162,"endTime":742.422,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":742.422,"endTime":747.032,"body":"Right, but the collaborating"},{"startTime":742.422,"endTime":747.032,"body":"communication, collaboration, when I"},{"startTime":747.052,"endTime":751.882,"body":"think about the team's facilitation,"},{"startTime":747.052,"endTime":751.882,"body":"like these are just not these, these are"},{"startTime":751.882,"endTime":755.192,"body":"not skills that are, I was going to say"},{"startTime":751.882,"endTime":755.192,"body":"they're not highly prized in corporate"},{"startTime":755.192,"endTime":758.532,"body":"America, but that's not really true"},{"startTime":755.192,"endTime":758.532,"body":"because the people getting the promotions,"},{"startTime":758.572,"endTime":760.482,"body":"most likely they've got these skills."},{"startTime":760.542,"endTime":761.022,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":761.172,"endTime":764.022,"body":"In addition to hard skills, perhaps,"},{"startTime":761.172,"endTime":764.022,"body":"but definitely these skills."},{"startTime":764.042,"endTime":766.602,"body":"So now you've got this person"},{"startTime":764.042,"endTime":766.602,"body":"who's recognized that they"},{"startTime":766.602,"endTime":768.112,"body":"need to develop these skills."},{"startTime":768.122,"endTime":769.552,"body":"How do they go about doing that?"},{"startTime":769.702,"endTime":770.122,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":770.272,"endTime":773.292,"body":"What's the first thing they have"},{"startTime":770.272,"endTime":773.292,"body":"to embrace when they do this?"},{"startTime":773.342,"endTime":776.422,"body":"Well, if they are currently working in"},{"startTime":773.342,"endTime":776.422,"body":"the feature factory, the way they do it"},{"startTime":776.452,"endTime":779.822,"body":"is they do it on their own time because"},{"startTime":776.452,"endTime":779.822,"body":"you don't do it in the feature factory."},{"startTime":780.092,"endTime":781.612,"body":"There's, there's no budget for training."},{"startTime":781.942,"endTime":783.442,"body":"It's not you, you have to ask."},{"startTime":783.442,"endTime":783.492,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":783.642,"endTime":788.182,"body":"To use training dollars and then you most"},{"startTime":783.642,"endTime":788.182,"body":"likely will get denied most likely your"},{"startTime":788.182,"endTime":792.532,"body":"training dollars are are insufficient"},{"startTime":788.182,"endTime":792.532,"body":"to cover the cost of a modern training"},{"startTime":792.542,"endTime":797.322,"body":"in a modern organization Yeah, so you"},{"startTime":792.542,"endTime":797.322,"body":"got a like kind of scrape for you know,"},{"startTime":797.322,"endTime":800.762,"body":"something here and there type of thing So"},{"startTime":797.322,"endTime":800.762,"body":"that how are you doing a feature factory?"},{"startTime":800.812,"endTime":801.472,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":801.502,"endTime":802.572,"body":"You do it on your own dollars."},{"startTime":802.572,"endTime":803.082,"body":"That's what you do."},{"startTime":803.112,"endTime":803.842,"body":"I think that's right."},{"startTime":803.842,"endTime":804.292,"body":"You do."},{"startTime":804.322,"endTime":807.462,"body":", you've got to be super motivated to"},{"startTime":804.322,"endTime":807.462,"body":"do that and your day job, but you've"},{"startTime":807.472,"endTime":809.332,"body":"got to do this for yourself, right?"},{"startTime":809.342,"endTime":812.742,"body":"Cause you want to change you because"},{"startTime":809.342,"endTime":812.742,"body":"you can't change the culture."},{"startTime":812.742,"endTime":815.852,"body":"We're not going there today, but"},{"startTime":812.742,"endTime":815.852,"body":"yeah, definitely doing it in your"},{"startTime":815.852,"endTime":820.162,"body":"own time, develop these skills and"},{"startTime":815.852,"endTime":820.162,"body":"then it's not just like reading"},{"startTime":820.162,"endTime":823.232,"body":"a book or You know watching a"},{"startTime":820.162,"endTime":823.232,"body":"video,  you could practice them."},{"startTime":823.292,"endTime":827.712,"body":"It could be  it could start that way"},{"startTime":823.292,"endTime":827.712,"body":"Yeah,  learning this the matter itself"},{"startTime":827.712,"endTime":831.092,"body":"Yeah, okay, but yeah practice these"},{"startTime":827.712,"endTime":831.092,"body":"skills and maybe you could start doing"},{"startTime":831.092,"endTime":835.122,"body":"that in a feature factory slowly Yeah,"},{"startTime":831.092,"endTime":835.122,"body":"right without upsetting the apple cart."},{"startTime":835.452,"endTime":838.172,"body":"You certainly could try  if that's outside"},{"startTime":835.452,"endTime":838.172,"body":"of the scope of where I want to go on"},{"startTime":838.172,"endTime":839.972,"body":"this podcast, but you you certainly could"},{"startTime":840.222,"endTime":844.122,"body":"one way to do it would be, if you"},{"startTime":840.222,"endTime":844.122,"body":"wanted to kick off trying to change"},{"startTime":844.132,"endTime":847.052,"body":"your work environment, definitely And"},{"startTime":844.132,"endTime":847.052,"body":"your culture, you could do a pilot"},{"startTime":847.052,"endTime":850.642,"body":"program using these concepts to try"},{"startTime":847.052,"endTime":850.642,"body":"to cut across programs or whatever."},{"startTime":850.642,"endTime":854.292,"body":", assuming you can even cut through"},{"startTime":850.642,"endTime":854.292,"body":"the resistance of one of these heavy,"},{"startTime":854.292,"endTime":855.682,"body":"heavy feature factories, right?"},{"startTime":855.782,"endTime":857.772,"body":"Or if you have a PMO or"},{"startTime":855.782,"endTime":857.772,"body":"something like that, right?"},{"startTime":857.832,"endTime":860.612,"body":"You could try a pilot program and"},{"startTime":857.832,"endTime":860.612,"body":"then get yourself some wiggle room."},{"startTime":860.612,"endTime":863.692,"body":"And even if the pilot program fails or"},{"startTime":860.612,"endTime":863.692,"body":"they don't want to do it or whatever,"},{"startTime":863.692,"endTime":865.222,"body":"like you still got some skill."},{"startTime":865.372,"endTime":866.932,"body":"You know, you still learn"},{"startTime":865.372,"endTime":866.932,"body":"something out of it."},{"startTime":867.112,"endTime":867.832,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":867.832,"endTime":869.902,"body":"And you got to keep"},{"startTime":867.832,"endTime":869.902,"body":"that resume updated too."},{"startTime":870.052,"endTime":870.652,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":870.652,"endTime":875.042,"body":"I think starting small within your team,"},{"startTime":870.652,"endTime":875.042,"body":"perhaps work with your product person"},{"startTime":875.042,"endTime":876.912,"body":"and say, can we talk to customers, right?"},{"startTime":876.942,"endTime":880.222,"body":"We're going to understand their real"},{"startTime":876.942,"endTime":880.222,"body":"motives, what they want and why they want"},{"startTime":880.222,"endTime":881.722,"body":"what they want, those sorts of things."},{"startTime":881.872,"endTime":882.642,"body":"It takes time."},{"startTime":882.642,"endTime":884.392,"body":"That's the thing you got to appreciate."},{"startTime":884.392,"endTime":889.512,"body":"It takes time to build that or start to"},{"startTime":884.392,"endTime":889.512,"body":"formulate that new culture, even if it's"},{"startTime":889.512,"endTime":891.062,"body":"a microculture within your own team."},{"startTime":891.112,"endTime":891.342,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":891.492,"endTime":896.342,"body":"the other thing we sort of touched"},{"startTime":891.492,"endTime":896.342,"body":"on was that, that feeling of control"},{"startTime":896.642,"endTime":897.962,"body":"that you have to be in control."},{"startTime":898.112,"endTime":902.462,"body":"And if you're moving to a more"},{"startTime":898.112,"endTime":902.462,"body":"agile way of working that is"},{"startTime":902.462,"endTime":903.462,"body":"only going to hold you back."},{"startTime":903.532,"endTime":905.102,"body":"The feeling you have to be"},{"startTime":903.532,"endTime":905.102,"body":"in control of everything."},{"startTime":905.102,"endTime":908.362,"body":"You have to be okay of letting go."},{"startTime":908.512,"endTime":909.202,"body":"Of control."},{"startTime":909.352,"endTime":910.312,"body":"Let me, let me step back."},{"startTime":910.322,"endTime":912.552,"body":"Cause people are like,"},{"startTime":910.322,"endTime":912.552,"body":"okay, I'm, I'm okay."},{"startTime":912.552,"endTime":913.532,"body":"Letting go control."},{"startTime":913.682,"endTime":914.112,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":914.142,"endTime":916.342,"body":"Let me challenge you for"},{"startTime":914.142,"endTime":916.342,"body":"a second at your company."},{"startTime":916.542,"endTime":918.302,"body":"How do the decisions get made?"},{"startTime":918.452,"endTime":922.324,"body":"Like, do the decisions all get made by one"},{"startTime":918.452,"endTime":922.324,"body":"person and then all, and now they top down"},{"startTime":922.324,"endTime":924.064,"body":"and we all gotta wait on that one person?"},{"startTime":924.064,"endTime":925.624,"body":"Is that how the decisions get made?"},{"startTime":925.774,"endTime":929.074,"body":"You know, are the decision makers,"},{"startTime":925.774,"endTime":929.074,"body":"the individuals on each team is,"},{"startTime":929.134,"endTime":932.344,"body":"are decisions decentralized and"},{"startTime":929.134,"endTime":932.344,"body":"pushed down to the teams, or does"},{"startTime":932.349,"endTime":933.574,"body":"one person at the top make them?"},{"startTime":933.574,"endTime":936.574,"body":"And when you say, oh no, Brian,"},{"startTime":933.574,"endTime":936.574,"body":"the teams totally do them."},{"startTime":936.724,"endTime":940.204,"body":"Let me go, let me, let me climb that"},{"startTime":936.724,"endTime":940.204,"body":"ladder and say, well, out of the"},{"startTime":940.204,"endTime":943.984,"body":"decisions that your teams make, how many"},{"startTime":940.204,"endTime":943.984,"body":"are related directly to business goals?"},{"startTime":944.314,"endTime":948.654,"body":"That letting go of control, it does"},{"startTime":944.314,"endTime":948.654,"body":"work, but I feel in a lot of company and"},{"startTime":948.654,"endTime":952.344,"body":"probably like 90 percent of companies,"},{"startTime":948.654,"endTime":952.344,"body":"it works up and you keep climbing up"},{"startTime":952.344,"endTime":954.984,"body":"to a point, you get to a point in the"},{"startTime":952.344,"endTime":954.984,"body":"company where it doesn't work anymore."},{"startTime":955.164,"endTime":956.404,"body":"That's the ceiling you've reached."},{"startTime":956.404,"endTime":957.174,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":957.254,"endTime":957.734,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":957.884,"endTime":961.254,"body":"So this is one that needs to be unlearned"},{"startTime":957.884,"endTime":961.254,"body":"because, even though you unlearn it,"},{"startTime":961.404,"endTime":963.354,"body":"it still is in your company somewhere."},{"startTime":963.504,"endTime":965.644,"body":"Kind of haunting you when"},{"startTime":963.504,"endTime":965.644,"body":"you press against it."},{"startTime":965.794,"endTime":965.984,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":965.984,"endTime":969.494,"body":"And this again is a hard one"},{"startTime":965.984,"endTime":969.494,"body":"to win across your company."},{"startTime":969.794,"endTime":970.114,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":970.234,"endTime":974.934,"body":"So try and do that in that little pilot"},{"startTime":970.234,"endTime":974.934,"body":"that little pilot that you're a part of."},{"startTime":975.084,"endTime":978.604,"body":"Hopefully people can see how"},{"startTime":975.084,"endTime":978.604,"body":"it's working in that pilot and"},{"startTime":978.604,"endTime":979.924,"body":"hopefully it'll catch on that."},{"startTime":979.934,"endTime":980.654,"body":"That's really it."},{"startTime":980.804,"endTime":982.184,"body":"When you have those successes."},{"startTime":982.334,"endTime":984.684,"body":"Sure, go ahead and evangelize them, right?"},{"startTime":984.834,"endTime":987.784,"body":"And, and bring other people up to speed"},{"startTime":984.834,"endTime":987.784,"body":"and say, we're working in a slightly"},{"startTime":987.784,"endTime":989.344,"body":"different way and it's really effective."},{"startTime":989.364,"endTime":992.184,"body":"If you want to come in and watch"},{"startTime":989.364,"endTime":992.184,"body":"or go and talk about it with them."},{"startTime":992.334,"endTime":996.429,"body":"Shared ownership is a"},{"startTime":992.334,"endTime":996.429,"body":"difficult concept to, to, to."},{"startTime":996.579,"endTime":998.139,"body":"We, we did a podcast one time."},{"startTime":998.289,"endTime":1000.829,"body":"I don't remember what it was called"},{"startTime":998.289,"endTime":1000.829,"body":"and I'm not going to find it right"},{"startTime":1000.829,"endTime":1002.859,"body":"now because I'm not doing it."},{"startTime":1003.009,"endTime":1005.089,"body":"I'm not digging through our back catalog."},{"startTime":1005.239,"endTime":1005.569,"body":"Nope."},{"startTime":1005.579,"endTime":1008.599,"body":"You can find it and find it and throw"},{"startTime":1005.579,"endTime":1008.599,"body":"it in the comments and let me know what"},{"startTime":1008.599,"endTime":1013.719,"body":"it was, but we did a podcast one time"},{"startTime":1008.599,"endTime":1013.719,"body":"talking about if, if nobody owns it, if"},{"startTime":1013.939,"endTime":1015.689,"body":"multiple people own it, nobody owns it."},{"startTime":1015.839,"endTime":1017.489,"body":"Like that, that, that type of thing."},{"startTime":1017.489,"endTime":1018.019,"body":"I remember that."},{"startTime":1018.059,"endTime":1022.809,"body":"And shared ownership is a difficult"},{"startTime":1018.059,"endTime":1022.809,"body":"concept to go from the feature factory"},{"startTime":1022.809,"endTime":1027.465,"body":"where one, there's one and only one"},{"startTime":1022.809,"endTime":1027.465,"body":"neck to choke to this, where it's"},{"startTime":1027.465,"endTime":1029.375,"body":"a, it's a team that owns something."},{"startTime":1029.525,"endTime":1029.785,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1029.935,"endTime":1030.205,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1030.205,"endTime":1033.765,"body":", it, again, I transitioned from"},{"startTime":1030.205,"endTime":1033.765,"body":"the former to the latter, right?"},{"startTime":1034.025,"endTime":1037.825,"body":"Shared ownership or collective"},{"startTime":1034.025,"endTime":1037.825,"body":"ownership, unless you've got that"},{"startTime":1037.855,"endTime":1039.585,"body":"trust among your team members."},{"startTime":1039.735,"endTime":1043.055,"body":"It's going to be hard to implement"},{"startTime":1039.735,"endTime":1043.055,"body":"something like that, because I"},{"startTime":1043.055,"endTime":1047.475,"body":"have specific skills and I know I'm"},{"startTime":1043.055,"endTime":1047.475,"body":"going to do a good job of whatever"},{"startTime":1047.475,"endTime":1050.685,"body":"it is I'm working on for me to"},{"startTime":1047.475,"endTime":1050.685,"body":"entrust someone else with that."},{"startTime":1050.705,"endTime":1054.795,"body":"First of all, I don't know how the"},{"startTime":1050.705,"endTime":1054.795,"body":"quality of that's going to be, because"},{"startTime":1054.795,"endTime":1056.575,"body":"I don't know their skill sets, right?"},{"startTime":1056.815,"endTime":1061.195,"body":"In other words, I don't necessarily trust"},{"startTime":1056.815,"endTime":1061.195,"body":"this other person, Mary, Fred, whoever"},{"startTime":1061.345,"endTime":1063.485,"body":"to do a good job, and it may not be."},{"startTime":1063.635,"endTime":1065.815,"body":"the same quality of job that I'm doing."},{"startTime":1065.825,"endTime":1070.575,"body":"Yeah, . But you know, this idea that"},{"startTime":1065.825,"endTime":1070.575,"body":"the team owns the work of the team that"},{"startTime":1070.635,"endTime":1074.895,"body":"once you have that understood among"},{"startTime":1070.635,"endTime":1074.895,"body":"team members, they start to Get around"},{"startTime":1075.215,"endTime":1077.095,"body":"the trust issue a little bit more."},{"startTime":1077.245,"endTime":1079.315,"body":"And, and this goes both ways."},{"startTime":1079.315,"endTime":1081.035,"body":"This also goes top down, right?"},{"startTime":1081.045,"endTime":1087.595,"body":"So top down when someone who's above the"},{"startTime":1081.045,"endTime":1087.595,"body":"team in the hierarchy of things, once"},{"startTime":1087.595,"endTime":1092.505,"body":"they feel like they want to just let go a"},{"startTime":1087.595,"endTime":1092.505,"body":"little bit and trust the team, what they"},{"startTime":1092.505,"endTime":1094.535,"body":"get back is of a much better quality."},{"startTime":1094.555,"endTime":1097.155,"body":"Cause now the team's empowered"},{"startTime":1094.555,"endTime":1097.155,"body":"to make decisions, right?"},{"startTime":1097.305,"endTime":1097.615,"body":"So."},{"startTime":1097.765,"endTime":1099.355,"body":"You know, it's got to start somewhere."},{"startTime":1099.405,"endTime":1102.375,"body":"Start with yourself, whoever"},{"startTime":1099.405,"endTime":1102.375,"body":"you are in the hierarchy."},{"startTime":1102.375,"endTime":1105.385,"body":"Start with yourself and start"},{"startTime":1102.375,"endTime":1105.385,"body":"looking left and right and maybe"},{"startTime":1105.385,"endTime":1108.875,"body":"extend your arm across the aisle and"},{"startTime":1105.385,"endTime":1108.875,"body":"say, Hey, how can I help with that?"},{"startTime":1109.175,"endTime":1110.225,"body":"Who can help me with this?"},{"startTime":1110.335,"endTime":1111.075,"body":"That is the other one."},{"startTime":1111.225,"endTime":1113.055,"body":"Feel free to ask for help."},{"startTime":1113.255,"endTime":1113.565,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1113.605,"endTime":1115.745,"body":"You know, that doesn't mean that"},{"startTime":1113.605,"endTime":1115.745,"body":"you don't know what you're doing."},{"startTime":1115.895,"endTime":1116.235,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1116.495,"endTime":1119.255,"body":"That just means another"},{"startTime":1116.495,"endTime":1119.255,"body":"pair of eyes on the work."},{"startTime":1119.405,"endTime":1120.475,"body":"We'll, we'll make it better."},{"startTime":1120.525,"endTime":1123.275,"body":"That's a good call out right there"},{"startTime":1120.525,"endTime":1123.275,"body":"because in the opposite of letting"},{"startTime":1123.275,"endTime":1126.735,"body":"go of control, seizing control,"},{"startTime":1123.275,"endTime":1126.735,"body":"that, that is what it means."},{"startTime":1126.955,"endTime":1128.005,"body":"So, Oh, what are you saying?"},{"startTime":1128.005,"endTime":1129.045,"body":"You don't know how to do this."},{"startTime":1129.045,"endTime":1132.025,"body":"Does that mean that maybe you're"},{"startTime":1129.045,"endTime":1132.025,"body":"not the team that I thought you"},{"startTime":1132.025,"endTime":1134.345,"body":"were, or maybe not yet, but we"},{"startTime":1132.025,"endTime":1134.345,"body":"wouldn't be talking about team."},{"startTime":1134.355,"endTime":1137.375,"body":"We'd be talking about individuals"},{"startTime":1134.355,"endTime":1137.375,"body":"but why am I spending this money"},{"startTime":1137.375,"endTime":1140.205,"body":"on your team if you can't do this"},{"startTime":1137.375,"endTime":1140.205,"body":"thing or whatever, but you're right."},{"startTime":1140.255,"endTime":1145.705,"body":"We released something and it wasn't"},{"startTime":1140.255,"endTime":1145.705,"body":"exactly perfect the first release."},{"startTime":1145.855,"endTime":1147.865,"body":"And so it's all terrible."},{"startTime":1148.015,"endTime":1148.305,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1148.455,"endTime":1148.715,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1148.725,"endTime":1149.535,"body":"That binary."},{"startTime":1149.585,"endTime":1149.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1149.875,"endTime":1153.255,"body":"And the, and the, and the idea that if"},{"startTime":1149.875,"endTime":1153.255,"body":"we release something, oh, the, Oh, we're"},{"startTime":1153.255,"endTime":1156.155,"body":"never going to come back to it no, we're"},{"startTime":1153.255,"endTime":1156.155,"body":"like, we're putting out a small release"},{"startTime":1156.155,"endTime":1159.915,"body":"and we're going to stay on it until we all"},{"startTime":1156.155,"endTime":1159.915,"body":"agree that we move on to something else."},{"startTime":1160.065,"endTime":1163.365,"body":"What you said a couple of"},{"startTime":1160.065,"endTime":1163.365,"body":"seconds ago you, you didn't say"},{"startTime":1163.485,"endTime":1164.935,"body":"it exactly, but you said trust."},{"startTime":1165.085,"endTime":1169.685,"body":"You default to a mode of trust with"},{"startTime":1165.085,"endTime":1169.685,"body":"the other teams that you work with."},{"startTime":1169.835,"endTime":1172.255,"body":"As opposed to defaulting"},{"startTime":1169.835,"endTime":1172.255,"body":"to a mode of trust."},{"startTime":1172.405,"endTime":1173.085,"body":"Mistrust?"},{"startTime":1173.095,"endTime":1173.615,"body":"Distrust?"},{"startTime":1173.935,"endTime":1174.845,"body":"Mistrust, yeah."},{"startTime":1174.995,"endTime":1175.745,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1175.925,"endTime":1179.115,"body":"But that transition too, it"},{"startTime":1175.925,"endTime":1179.115,"body":"takes time because you've got"},{"startTime":1179.115,"endTime":1180.645,"body":"to let go of that control."},{"startTime":1180.665,"endTime":1180.885,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1180.935,"endTime":1181.235,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1181.285,"endTime":1185.305,"body":"And the fear that you have that if"},{"startTime":1181.285,"endTime":1185.305,"body":"I let go, someone's going to drop"},{"startTime":1185.305,"endTime":1187.555,"body":"the ball and I'll get blamed, right?"},{"startTime":1187.555,"endTime":1190.165,"body":", in that scenario, you really"},{"startTime":1187.555,"endTime":1190.165,"body":"don't have collective ownership."},{"startTime":1190.175,"endTime":1191.385,"body":"You're owning a piece of it."},{"startTime":1191.435,"endTime":1192.885,"body":"Everybody's owning a little piece of it."},{"startTime":1193.035,"endTime":1196.765,"body":"So you may as well go into your"},{"startTime":1193.035,"endTime":1196.765,"body":"corners And develop something and come"},{"startTime":1196.765,"endTime":1198.065,"body":"back and hopefully it'll integrate."},{"startTime":1198.105,"endTime":1198.975,"body":", that just doesn't work."},{"startTime":1199.125,"endTime":1200.345,"body":"We've known this for a while."},{"startTime":1200.345,"endTime":1201.105,"body":"That doesn't work."},{"startTime":1201.105,"endTime":1202.735,"body":"I mentioned that we're"},{"startTime":1201.105,"endTime":1202.735,"body":"going to stay on this."},{"startTime":1203.075,"endTime":1206.745,"body":"We're, we're going to stay on working on"},{"startTime":1203.075,"endTime":1206.745,"body":"the thing until we quote, get it right."},{"startTime":1206.895,"endTime":1210.525,"body":"You know, until, until we evolve it to the"},{"startTime":1206.895,"endTime":1210.525,"body":"point where it's accepted and everyone's"},{"startTime":1210.525,"endTime":1211.835,"body":"happy with it to a certain level."},{"startTime":1211.835,"endTime":1213.955,"body":"And then we cut, cause we"},{"startTime":1211.835,"endTime":1213.955,"body":"got other things to work on."},{"startTime":1214.275,"endTime":1214.495,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1214.525,"endTime":1220.265,"body":"You can't really do that if ambiguity and"},{"startTime":1214.525,"endTime":1220.265,"body":"uncertainty is a foreign concept to you"},{"startTime":1220.415,"endTime":1225.115,"body":"You know or or a hostile concept Yeah, you"},{"startTime":1220.415,"endTime":1225.115,"body":"want the comfort of of certainty, right?"},{"startTime":1225.345,"endTime":1228.305,"body":"You don't want to have any wiggle"},{"startTime":1225.345,"endTime":1228.305,"body":"room in what you're doing lest it"},{"startTime":1228.345,"endTime":1230.675,"body":"be interpreted as wrong, you know?"},{"startTime":1230.675,"endTime":1236.125,"body":"Yeah, and I this, this this is, this is"},{"startTime":1230.675,"endTime":1236.125,"body":"past just like, Oh, I delivered this one"},{"startTime":1236.125,"endTime":1240.335,"body":"thing or I delivered this release this,"},{"startTime":1236.125,"endTime":1240.335,"body":"this goes off to this goes off to your,"},{"startTime":1240.645,"endTime":1245.455,"body":"your processes and your plans for work and"},{"startTime":1240.645,"endTime":1245.455,"body":"your how you, how work is broken down and"},{"startTime":1245.475,"endTime":1247.715,"body":"to what level of detail before you start."},{"startTime":1247.865,"endTime":1251.235,"body":"This all, this, this all is pervasive"},{"startTime":1247.865,"endTime":1251.235,"body":"through every layer of the organization."},{"startTime":1251.385,"endTime":1254.365,"body":"Because I've been in organizations"},{"startTime":1251.385,"endTime":1254.365,"body":"that say, Beau, before we start on"},{"startTime":1254.365,"endTime":1256.725,"body":"anything with development, before"},{"startTime":1254.365,"endTime":1256.725,"body":"we engage the development teams,"},{"startTime":1256.875,"endTime":1259.075,"body":"we have to have everything planned."},{"startTime":1259.125,"endTime":1260.125,"body":"Everything up front, yeah."},{"startTime":1260.275,"endTime":1265.495,"body":"The developers are the most expensive,"},{"startTime":1260.275,"endTime":1265.495,"body":"quote, resources in the organization."},{"startTime":1265.495,"endTime":1266.675,"body":"I'll tell you how many"},{"startTime":1265.495,"endTime":1266.675,"body":"times I've heard that."},{"startTime":1266.685,"endTime":1271.355,"body":"So before we, quote, waste their"},{"startTime":1266.685,"endTime":1271.355,"body":"time, we have to have all the,"},{"startTime":1271.385,"endTime":1274.065,"body":"quote, requirements done up front."},{"startTime":1274.245,"endTime":1274.475,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1274.625,"endTime":1277.665,"body":"And then we bring it to them and"},{"startTime":1274.625,"endTime":1277.665,"body":"then they do it one at a time."},{"startTime":1277.665,"endTime":1281.725,"body":"We get sign off before they"},{"startTime":1277.665,"endTime":1281.725,"body":"accept their resources."},{"startTime":1281.775,"endTime":1284.765,"body":"The development resources are"},{"startTime":1281.775,"endTime":1284.765,"body":"nothing more than basically."},{"startTime":1284.915,"endTime":1285.585,"body":"Dare I say it?"},{"startTime":1285.795,"endTime":1288.795,"body":"Code robots, a better phrase,"},{"startTime":1285.795,"endTime":1288.795,"body":"they're not knowledge workers."},{"startTime":1288.865,"endTime":1293.465,"body":"They're not required to use their"},{"startTime":1288.865,"endTime":1293.465,"body":"ingenuity in any way to ask questions"},{"startTime":1293.465,"endTime":1295.045,"body":"that maybe others didn't think about."},{"startTime":1295.255,"endTime":1296.885,"body":"You're just saying go build this."},{"startTime":1296.925,"endTime":1297.695,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1297.845,"endTime":1298.535,"body":"That's horrible."},{"startTime":1298.595,"endTime":1302.135,"body":"But that is exactly what happens"},{"startTime":1298.595,"endTime":1302.135,"body":"in those in those cultures."},{"startTime":1302.285,"endTime":1302.975,"body":"So you don't have it."},{"startTime":1303.125,"endTime":1305.825,"body":"The authority to say, oh,"},{"startTime":1303.125,"endTime":1305.825,"body":"but why do you want that?"},{"startTime":1305.885,"endTime":1306.605,"body":"You don't have that."},{"startTime":1306.755,"endTime":1308.645,"body":"Because you're told, hey,"},{"startTime":1306.755,"endTime":1308.645,"body":"stay in your lane, bro."},{"startTime":1308.775,"endTime":1308.995,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1309.035,"endTime":1309.305,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1309.455,"endTime":1310.465,"body":"We're telling you what to do."},{"startTime":1310.525,"endTime":1311.215,"body":"You're a developer."},{"startTime":1311.215,"endTime":1311.825,"body":"Go develop."},{"startTime":1311.975,"endTime":1312.355,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1312.645,"endTime":1315.555,"body":"And the planning up front"},{"startTime":1312.645,"endTime":1315.555,"body":"pieces is, is important here."},{"startTime":1315.815,"endTime":1320.385,"body":"The best made plans up front never"},{"startTime":1315.815,"endTime":1320.385,"body":"materialized the way they were planned."},{"startTime":1320.475,"endTime":1324.135,"body":"They always have to change with the"},{"startTime":1320.475,"endTime":1324.135,"body":"passage of time, even if it's short time."},{"startTime":1324.145,"endTime":1324.355,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1324.505,"endTime":1326.705,"body":"So knowing that, why would you bother?"},{"startTime":1326.835,"endTime":1330.185,"body":"It's expensive to plan up front"},{"startTime":1326.835,"endTime":1330.185,"body":"and then have to rework your"},{"startTime":1330.185,"endTime":1332.595,"body":"plan when the inevitable happens."},{"startTime":1332.745,"endTime":1334.085,"body":"Why do people still do that?"},{"startTime":1334.235,"endTime":1335.015,"body":"It's beyond me."},{"startTime":1335.165,"endTime":1335.695,"body":"You got me."},{"startTime":1335.845,"endTime":1338.185,"body":"It's like, look, if I bang my"},{"startTime":1335.845,"endTime":1338.185,"body":"head on the wall, it hurts."},{"startTime":1338.335,"endTime":1338.985,"body":"Look, I'll show you."},{"startTime":1339.165,"endTime":1340.145,"body":"I keep doing it."},{"startTime":1340.145,"endTime":1341.275,"body":"It's like, come on, stop doing that."},{"startTime":1341.275,"endTime":1343.895,"body":"It's, I think it's exactly the"},{"startTime":1341.275,"endTime":1343.895,"body":"category we're talking about."},{"startTime":1343.895,"endTime":1347.145,"body":"They're not comfortable with"},{"startTime":1343.895,"endTime":1347.145,"body":"uncertainty sitting out there."},{"startTime":1347.295,"endTime":1350.965,"body":"All, even up to the point where"},{"startTime":1347.295,"endTime":1350.965,"body":"they are willing to spend money."},{"startTime":1350.965,"endTime":1351.025,"body":"It's beyond me."},{"startTime":1351.175,"endTime":1354.655,"body":"To feel like, even though the numbers"},{"startTime":1351.175,"endTime":1354.655,"body":"and the evidence after the fact,"},{"startTime":1354.665,"endTime":1357.975,"body":"tell them that, Oh, these projects"},{"startTime":1354.665,"endTime":1357.975,"body":"are only 14 percent successful."},{"startTime":1357.985,"endTime":1360.675,"body":"They come in on time on their budget"},{"startTime":1357.985,"endTime":1360.675,"body":"or whatever that even though they"},{"startTime":1360.675,"endTime":1364.495,"body":"know statistically, they logically"},{"startTime":1360.675,"endTime":1364.495,"body":"know they want that feeling."},{"startTime":1364.645,"endTime":1368.995,"body":"We should do a podcast on feelings"},{"startTime":1364.645,"endTime":1368.995,"body":"versus logic in software development."},{"startTime":1368.995,"endTime":1371.975,"body":"I like it because it's so much"},{"startTime":1368.995,"endTime":1371.975,"body":"stuff like this, like they will"},{"startTime":1371.975,"endTime":1375.865,"body":"pay extra and they'll spin up this"},{"startTime":1371.975,"endTime":1375.865,"body":"whole organization, this whole."},{"startTime":1376.015,"endTime":1381.625,"body":"project management organization that that"},{"startTime":1376.015,"endTime":1381.625,"body":"just gives everyone feeling you know,"},{"startTime":1381.775,"endTime":1384.335,"body":"feeling of control, feeling of control."},{"startTime":1384.605,"endTime":1386.085,"body":"There's, there's science there."},{"startTime":1386.085,"endTime":1386.415,"body":"It's okay."},{"startTime":1386.415,"endTime":1390.135,"body":"There is science there, but yes,"},{"startTime":1390.305,"endTime":1393.055,"body":"this feeling of controls like"},{"startTime":1390.305,"endTime":1393.055,"body":"to your point, projects are"},{"startTime":1393.055,"endTime":1395.075,"body":"successful when they're What?"},{"startTime":1395.205,"endTime":1395.455,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1395.465,"endTime":1398.475,"body":"10 percent successful for 15, 15%, 50%."},{"startTime":1398.495,"endTime":1401.265,"body":"It doesn't matter that definition"},{"startTime":1398.495,"endTime":1401.265,"body":"is not there to begin with."},{"startTime":1401.275,"endTime":1403.575,"body":"So I was going to, I was going"},{"startTime":1401.275,"endTime":1403.575,"body":"to fill in what you just said."},{"startTime":1403.605,"endTime":1407.325,"body":"Projects are projects are successful"},{"startTime":1403.605,"endTime":1407.325,"body":"when like all of the variables"},{"startTime":1407.325,"endTime":1410.415,"body":"are completely known and don't"},{"startTime":1407.325,"endTime":1410.415,"body":"deviate during the project."},{"startTime":1410.565,"endTime":1411.635,"body":"Projects are successful."},{"startTime":1411.945,"endTime":1414.405,"body":"Like if we're going to build where,"},{"startTime":1411.945,"endTime":1414.405,"body":"if we're going to build a, people"},{"startTime":1414.405,"endTime":1417.565,"body":"love to talk about building a"},{"startTime":1414.405,"endTime":1417.565,"body":"house with regard to development,"},{"startTime":1417.565,"endTime":1418.775,"body":"they love to make that analogy."},{"startTime":1418.925,"endTime":1423.545,"body":"And I said, sure, you're going to build a"},{"startTime":1418.925,"endTime":1423.545,"body":"house in the exact same geographical area."},{"startTime":1423.765,"endTime":1427.515,"body":"So the, the soil and the earth is exactly"},{"startTime":1423.765,"endTime":1427.515,"body":"the same with the exact same materials"},{"startTime":1427.575,"endTime":1431.545,"body":"in the exact same configuration to the"},{"startTime":1427.575,"endTime":1431.545,"body":"exact same plan with the exact same crew."},{"startTime":1431.695,"endTime":1432.425,"body":"Then yes."},{"startTime":1432.575,"endTime":1433.065,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1433.215,"endTime":1435.635,"body":"We can tell you how long everything's"},{"startTime":1433.215,"endTime":1435.635,"body":"going to take after the first one."},{"startTime":1435.665,"endTime":1435.945,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1436.045,"endTime":1437.275,"body":"Yes after the first one."},{"startTime":1437.355,"endTime":1441.695,"body":"Yes so that's really yeah, that's"},{"startTime":1437.355,"endTime":1441.695,"body":"really a Mechanical factory right there."},{"startTime":1441.695,"endTime":1444.195,"body":"It's like, you know what it takes"},{"startTime":1441.695,"endTime":1444.195,"body":"to stamp out the house, right?"},{"startTime":1444.235,"endTime":1447.785,"body":"Right  and if we roll all the way back"},{"startTime":1444.235,"endTime":1447.785,"body":"to how how all these people learn this"},{"startTime":1447.815,"endTime":1451.065,"body":"we roll all the way back That's we roll"},{"startTime":1447.815,"endTime":1451.065,"body":"the clocks back to taylorism our friend"},{"startTime":1451.065,"endTime":1454.765,"body":"on this podcast, It makes total sense"},{"startTime":1451.065,"endTime":1454.765,"body":"because he spent extensive amount of time"},{"startTime":1454.775,"endTime":1459.115,"body":"studying workers, working in different"},{"startTime":1454.775,"endTime":1459.115,"body":"ways to figure out what the best way was."},{"startTime":1459.145,"endTime":1461.865,"body":"And then he wrote down, you"},{"startTime":1459.145,"endTime":1461.865,"body":"should do it exactly this way."},{"startTime":1462.145,"endTime":1464.965,"body":"And everyone looked at that and they"},{"startTime":1462.145,"endTime":1464.965,"body":"skipped all of the, how he got to"},{"startTime":1464.965,"endTime":1468.815,"body":"those learnings and they just took the"},{"startTime":1464.965,"endTime":1468.815,"body":"checklist and said, okay, we got this."},{"startTime":1468.815,"endTime":1470.505,"body":"We will just write a"},{"startTime":1468.815,"endTime":1470.505,"body":"checklist and that'll be it."},{"startTime":1470.745,"endTime":1475.075,"body":"There's always going to be some variable"},{"startTime":1470.745,"endTime":1475.075,"body":"though, that you don't have control over."},{"startTime":1475.105,"endTime":1479.015,"body":"You know, in our analogy of building a"},{"startTime":1475.105,"endTime":1479.015,"body":"house, whether it becomes a variable,"},{"startTime":1479.265,"endTime":1482.735,"body":"you built the first house, it was sunny"},{"startTime":1479.265,"endTime":1482.735,"body":"for a whole week or whatever it took."},{"startTime":1482.885,"endTime":1485.615,"body":"And now it's not thunderstorms"},{"startTime":1482.885,"endTime":1485.615,"body":"and you started to frame the"},{"startTime":1485.615,"endTime":1486.875,"body":"roof, but now it's raining."},{"startTime":1487.085,"endTime":1487.715,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1487.715,"endTime":1489.665,"body":"And the house is flooded, right?"},{"startTime":1489.815,"endTime":1490.165,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1490.195,"endTime":1491.135,"body":"This is always variables."},{"startTime":1491.285,"endTime":1493.745,"body":"So the best made plans"},{"startTime":1491.285,"endTime":1493.745,"body":"really need to change."},{"startTime":1493.775,"endTime":1493.975,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1494.125,"endTime":1497.175,"body":"So like I like to tell people when"},{"startTime":1494.125,"endTime":1497.175,"body":"they ask me about scrum, I like to"},{"startTime":1497.175,"endTime":1502.125,"body":"tell them scrum is just enough, just"},{"startTime":1497.175,"endTime":1502.125,"body":"enough process to temper the chaos."},{"startTime":1502.275,"endTime":1503.065,"body":"And that is it."},{"startTime":1503.265,"endTime":1504.285,"body":"That's all I'm looking for."},{"startTime":1504.295,"endTime":1505.005,"body":"Just enough."},{"startTime":1505.155,"endTime":1507.735,"body":"So that everyone kind of understands"},{"startTime":1505.155,"endTime":1507.735,"body":"what, what the next goal we're"},{"startTime":1507.735,"endTime":1509.135,"body":"headed towards looks like."},{"startTime":1509.285,"endTime":1510.405,"body":"And that's it."},{"startTime":1510.555,"endTime":1510.805,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1510.805,"endTime":1512.015,"body":"That's all the process we need."},{"startTime":1512.355,"endTime":1514.915,"body":"And then people usually listen"},{"startTime":1512.355,"endTime":1514.915,"body":"to me and say, you're, you're"},{"startTime":1514.915,"endTime":1516.075,"body":"just being ridiculous, Brian."},{"startTime":1516.075,"endTime":1518.125,"body":"And I tell them actually, It does work."},{"startTime":1518.165,"endTime":1519.135,"body":"It does work."},{"startTime":1519.135,"endTime":1520.555,"body":"It's a lightweight framework."},{"startTime":1520.665,"endTime":1521.385,"body":"It does work."},{"startTime":1521.695,"endTime":1522.975,"body":"It's supposed to be a"},{"startTime":1521.695,"endTime":1522.975,"body":"lightweight framework."},{"startTime":1522.985,"endTime":1528.415,"body":"That understanding that it's balance, the"},{"startTime":1522.985,"endTime":1528.415,"body":"balance of structure versus flexibility."},{"startTime":1528.615,"endTime":1532.085,"body":"True flexibility would be every day we"},{"startTime":1528.615,"endTime":1532.085,"body":"come in and we look at the plan and we"},{"startTime":1532.085,"endTime":1534.765,"body":"decide if we just want to throw out the"},{"startTime":1532.085,"endTime":1534.765,"body":"whole plan and should be open to that."},{"startTime":1534.765,"endTime":1535.095,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1535.415,"endTime":1536.205,"body":"We should be open to that."},{"startTime":1536.205,"endTime":1537.695,"body":", we're not, we're not"},{"startTime":1536.205,"endTime":1537.695,"body":"writing anything down."},{"startTime":1537.845,"endTime":1540.125,"body":"You know Everyone eats pizza at 7 00 a."},{"startTime":1540.125,"endTime":1543.645,"body":"m But we need to stay up all night."},{"startTime":1543.865,"endTime":1547.675,"body":"We don't report anything to anyone"},{"startTime":1543.865,"endTime":1547.675,"body":"with unlimited money unlimited time You"},{"startTime":1547.675,"endTime":1549.275,"body":"know I don't think that world exists."},{"startTime":1549.585,"endTime":1552.455,"body":"I don't think it does either so"},{"startTime":1549.585,"endTime":1552.455,"body":"it's but  there's Doesn't stop"},{"startTime":1552.455,"endTime":1555.485,"body":"people from criticizing agile"},{"startTime":1552.455,"endTime":1555.485,"body":"ways of working saying pretending"},{"startTime":1555.485,"endTime":1557.095,"body":"that it works like that I agree."},{"startTime":1557.095,"endTime":1557.675,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1557.675,"endTime":1558.935,"body":"You're always gonna get the naysayers."},{"startTime":1559.065,"endTime":1562.885,"body":"Moving on to something else that I"},{"startTime":1559.065,"endTime":1562.885,"body":"think is the cornerstone of moving"},{"startTime":1562.885,"endTime":1566.685,"body":"out of the feature factory is you may"},{"startTime":1562.885,"endTime":1566.685,"body":"run into some things moving out of the"},{"startTime":1566.685,"endTime":1570.885,"body":"feature factory that directly conflict"},{"startTime":1566.685,"endTime":1570.885,"body":"with your personal identity, right?"},{"startTime":1571.005,"endTime":1575.025,"body":"I'm a, I'm a great, I'm a great let me try"},{"startTime":1571.005,"endTime":1575.025,"body":"to think of what, what I'm trying to think"},{"startTime":1575.025,"endTime":1578.255,"body":"of something making, making it personal to"},{"startTime":1575.025,"endTime":1578.255,"body":"me that moving out of the feature factory."},{"startTime":1578.315,"endTime":1579.665,"body":"Oh, Oh, I know a good one."},{"startTime":1579.665,"endTime":1580.205,"body":"I know a good one."},{"startTime":1580.355,"endTime":1583.685,"body":"Uh, moving out of the feature"},{"startTime":1580.355,"endTime":1583.685,"body":"factory for a product manager."},{"startTime":1584.015,"endTime":1584.355,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1584.505,"endTime":1587.565,"body":"Hey all, all those people's"},{"startTime":1584.505,"endTime":1587.565,"body":"strategies are terrible."},{"startTime":1587.715,"endTime":1589.395,"body":"I can come up with a great strategy."},{"startTime":1589.545,"endTime":1593.165,"body":"Nobody says that coming up with a"},{"startTime":1589.545,"endTime":1593.165,"body":"great strategy is Difficult, right?"},{"startTime":1593.165,"endTime":1596.515,"body":"You thought you were a great business"},{"startTime":1593.165,"endTime":1596.515,"body":"person or whatever, because, cause"},{"startTime":1596.515,"endTime":1599.035,"body":"all the strategies you were engaging"},{"startTime":1596.515,"endTime":1599.035,"body":"in the feature factory, we would"},{"startTime":1599.035,"endTime":1600.835,"body":"just sent you to the moon and back."},{"startTime":1600.875,"endTime":1602.615,"body":"Oh, he's just signing up left and right."},{"startTime":1602.785,"endTime":1605.655,"body":"Then you change companies and you"},{"startTime":1602.785,"endTime":1605.655,"body":"found out that like all your strategies"},{"startTime":1605.895,"endTime":1609.565,"body":"don't work and maybe you thought"},{"startTime":1605.895,"endTime":1609.565,"body":"you were not as good as creating a"},{"startTime":1609.565,"endTime":1613.255,"body":"strategy and executing a strategy"},{"startTime":1609.565,"endTime":1613.255,"body":"or you know, the other the other one"},{"startTime":1613.425,"endTime":1614.605,"body":"is actually a much better example."},{"startTime":1614.755,"endTime":1616.165,"body":"The other one I've seen is."},{"startTime":1616.315,"endTime":1620.335,"body":"People selling themselves as I am"},{"startTime":1616.315,"endTime":1620.335,"body":"I am a what's called not executor."},{"startTime":1620.415,"endTime":1625.085,"body":"I'm Oh, I'm a, a software delivery"},{"startTime":1620.415,"endTime":1625.085,"body":"expert, a delivery expert."},{"startTime":1625.425,"endTime":1625.945,"body":"What do you do?"},{"startTime":1625.965,"endTime":1627.035,"body":"Just put it on your back."},{"startTime":1627.075,"endTime":1630.715,"body":"I can, I can whip a team in the"},{"startTime":1627.075,"endTime":1630.715,"body":"shape and have them delivering"},{"startTime":1630.775,"endTime":1632.455,"body":"fast, fast delivery Om."},{"startTime":1632.505,"endTime":1635.695,"body":"And people sell themselves"},{"startTime":1632.505,"endTime":1635.695,"body":"as a delivery coach."},{"startTime":1635.845,"endTime":1637.245,"body":"Great, great software delivery."},{"startTime":1637.435,"endTime":1638.855,"body":"And then they get coupled with the team."},{"startTime":1639.005,"endTime":1641.805,"body":"That just  can't deliver"},{"startTime":1639.005,"endTime":1641.805,"body":"the, yeah, that's it."},{"startTime":1641.835,"endTime":1642.075,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1642.075,"endTime":1643.775,"body":"Now they have to question"},{"startTime":1642.075,"endTime":1643.775,"body":"their whole identity."},{"startTime":1643.925,"endTime":1648.235,"body":"The other the other role that falls"},{"startTime":1643.925,"endTime":1648.235,"body":"along with that is a process coach."},{"startTime":1648.385,"endTime":1649.435,"body":"I'm a process coach."},{"startTime":1649.485,"endTime":1652.195,"body":"I can improve the process and"},{"startTime":1649.485,"endTime":1652.195,"body":"get the teams ship shaped."},{"startTime":1652.535,"endTime":1656.225,"body":"They deliver and yeah, it's quite"},{"startTime":1652.535,"endTime":1656.225,"body":"revealing when when you recognize"},{"startTime":1656.265,"endTime":1658.685,"body":"that he's not working the way you."},{"startTime":1658.835,"endTime":1662.725,"body":"orchestrated this plan both in"},{"startTime":1658.835,"endTime":1662.725,"body":"your head and you try to install"},{"startTime":1662.725,"endTime":1664.585,"body":"your plan upon the team, right?"},{"startTime":1664.615,"endTime":1666.545,"body":"And they rejected it or it didn't work."},{"startTime":1666.555,"endTime":1669.035,"body":"They wouldn't outright reject it"},{"startTime":1666.555,"endTime":1669.035,"body":"necessarily, especially if you had"},{"startTime":1669.035,"endTime":1671.785,"body":"positional authority, but you know"},{"startTime":1669.035,"endTime":1671.785,"body":"when it doesn't work It's like"},{"startTime":1671.855,"endTime":1674.435,"body":"ah, yeah, this is on me, right?"},{"startTime":1674.585,"endTime":1679.02,"body":"So that revelation is something that"},{"startTime":1674.585,"endTime":1679.02,"body":"you should really absorb and say,"},{"startTime":1679.17,"endTime":1680.66,"body":"should I be working in this way?"},{"startTime":1680.81,"endTime":1681.26,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1681.41,"endTime":1685.62,"body":"Seeking help and, and, and getting"},{"startTime":1681.41,"endTime":1685.62,"body":"other people's opinion requires"},{"startTime":1685.62,"endTime":1690.0,"body":"you to really become somewhat"},{"startTime":1685.62,"endTime":1690.0,"body":"vulnerable and say, I need help."},{"startTime":1690.27,"endTime":1692.38,"body":"It doesn't mean I don't"},{"startTime":1690.27,"endTime":1692.38,"body":"know what I'm doing, right?"},{"startTime":1692.44,"endTime":1697.06,"body":"I bring expertise, but I value your"},{"startTime":1692.44,"endTime":1697.06,"body":"opinion, your expertise as well."},{"startTime":1697.4,"endTime":1701.19,"body":"So it's respecting someone else's"},{"startTime":1697.4,"endTime":1701.19,"body":"skillset and what they can bring."},{"startTime":1701.34,"endTime":1701.36,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1701.51,"endTime":1704.43,"body":"I wouldn't say above yours,"},{"startTime":1701.51,"endTime":1704.43,"body":"but necessarily like, okay."},{"startTime":1704.58,"endTime":1708.64,"body":"You are not the whole and soul person"},{"startTime":1704.58,"endTime":1708.64,"body":"who can do all of this by yourself."},{"startTime":1708.87,"endTime":1711.67,"body":"So get some help, think about"},{"startTime":1708.87,"endTime":1711.67,"body":"the analogy that we have of"},{"startTime":1711.69,"endTime":1713.43,"body":"people like rowing a boat, right?"},{"startTime":1713.75,"endTime":1716.12,"body":"Every, every rower is important."},{"startTime":1716.27,"endTime":1718.99,"body":"And they need somebody to keep"},{"startTime":1716.27,"endTime":1718.99,"body":"the rhythm, but yeah, you get,"},{"startTime":1719.0,"endTime":1724.08,"body":"it only takes one person to not"},{"startTime":1719.0,"endTime":1724.08,"body":"understand the pattern and their."},{"startTime":1724.23,"endTime":1725.91,"body":"The boat goes around"},{"startTime":1724.23,"endTime":1725.91,"body":"in circles, basically."},{"startTime":1726.11,"endTime":1728.46,"body":"I like this category, personal identity."},{"startTime":1728.54,"endTime":1732.69,"body":"You built your own identity"},{"startTime":1728.54,"endTime":1732.69,"body":"around your work skill."},{"startTime":1732.84,"endTime":1737.5,"body":"You know, your, your, your, your skill"},{"startTime":1732.84,"endTime":1737.5,"body":"or your expertise in one particular area"},{"startTime":1737.5,"endTime":1740.74,"body":"or something, and I think about people"},{"startTime":1737.5,"endTime":1740.74,"body":"that have built their expertise around"},{"startTime":1740.74,"endTime":1744.36,"body":"a particular product that a company has"},{"startTime":1740.74,"endTime":1744.36,"body":"that they work for, what happens when"},{"startTime":1744.36,"endTime":1745.73,"body":"they don't work for that company anymore?"},{"startTime":1745.74,"endTime":1747.19,"body":"Like they don't have an identity now."},{"startTime":1747.19,"endTime":1749.2,"body":"They, they don't know what"},{"startTime":1747.19,"endTime":1749.2,"body":"to do with their life now."},{"startTime":1749.2,"endTime":1750.62,"body":"Like that's, that's tough."},{"startTime":1750.72,"endTime":1751.34,"body":"It is tough."},{"startTime":1751.38,"endTime":1754.86,"body":"A lot of times people, when they"},{"startTime":1751.38,"endTime":1754.86,"body":"have this personal identity that"},{"startTime":1754.9,"endTime":1759.26,"body":"they formed over many years, possibly"},{"startTime":1754.9,"endTime":1759.26,"body":"they feel like it's, you know."},{"startTime":1759.41,"endTime":1760.03,"body":"It's solid."},{"startTime":1760.04,"endTime":1762.31,"body":"It's like you don't knock"},{"startTime":1760.04,"endTime":1762.31,"body":"that that's who I am."},{"startTime":1762.66,"endTime":1765.49,"body":"You know another I'll give you"},{"startTime":1762.66,"endTime":1765.49,"body":"another good example Of somebody"},{"startTime":1765.49,"endTime":1769.84,"body":"building their identity around One"},{"startTime":1765.49,"endTime":1769.84,"body":"of these things C level executive."},{"startTime":1769.99,"endTime":1774.64,"body":"I'm a great leader sure cuz I'm a C level"},{"startTime":1769.99,"endTime":1774.64,"body":"executive Yeah, and suddenly People are"},{"startTime":1774.64,"endTime":1776.35,"body":"leaving, they can't they can't coach."},{"startTime":1776.45,"endTime":1779.85,"body":"They can't, they can't give"},{"startTime":1776.45,"endTime":1779.85,"body":"feedback nor receive feedback."},{"startTime":1779.99,"endTime":1782.59,"body":"They're a terrible leader"},{"startTime":1779.99,"endTime":1782.59,"body":"and they're not coachable."},{"startTime":1782.71,"endTime":1784.03,"body":"Yeah, yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1784.06,"endTime":1784.56,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":1784.57,"endTime":1788.32,"body":"That's a good example, actually,"},{"startTime":1784.57,"endTime":1788.32,"body":"because you live in this aura where you"},{"startTime":1788.32,"endTime":1790.88,"body":"believe you are a superhero, basically."},{"startTime":1791.15,"endTime":1794.94,"body":", I don't know where we're going to go"},{"startTime":1791.15,"endTime":1794.94,"body":"with this category because all, all"},{"startTime":1794.94,"endTime":1799.43,"body":"I've ever seen, this is be a blocker to"},{"startTime":1794.94,"endTime":1799.43,"body":"a person's evolution to the next step."},{"startTime":1799.71,"endTime":1801.5,"body":"I've, I've really seen this."},{"startTime":1801.51,"endTime":1804.81,"body":", I only other, I only bring this up"},{"startTime":1801.51,"endTime":1804.81,"body":"to say, unless you have something"},{"startTime":1804.96,"endTime":1806.32,"body":"prophetic, hopefully you do."},{"startTime":1806.47,"endTime":1810.32,"body":"I only bring this up to say be self aware"},{"startTime":1806.47,"endTime":1810.32,"body":"about this, like the way you perceive"},{"startTime":1810.32,"endTime":1814.89,"body":"yourself for whatever reason that it is"},{"startTime":1810.32,"endTime":1814.89,"body":"it really could be undermining you and,"},{"startTime":1814.89,"endTime":1817.97,"body":"and look, and Oh, and the other thing"},{"startTime":1814.89,"endTime":1817.97,"body":"is, is you, we would post something"},{"startTime":1817.97,"endTime":1821.67,"body":"like this and people would say, what's"},{"startTime":1817.97,"endTime":1821.67,"body":"wrong with working in a feature factory?"},{"startTime":1821.67,"endTime":1824.99,"body":"It's, it's not that bad because"},{"startTime":1821.67,"endTime":1824.99,"body":"again like now I'm challenging"},{"startTime":1824.99,"endTime":1826.404,"body":"their personal identity, you know?"},{"startTime":1826.404,"endTime":1829.87,"body":"Oh, I'm maybe I'm the one in the feature"},{"startTime":1826.404,"endTime":1829.87,"body":"factory that tells everyone what to do."},{"startTime":1829.87,"endTime":1831.09,"body":"Maybe I'm the architect."},{"startTime":1831.43,"endTime":1835.41,"body":"That's my, that's my identity now is I'm"},{"startTime":1831.43,"endTime":1835.41,"body":"the guy that tells everyone what to do."},{"startTime":1835.68,"endTime":1836.73,"body":"I'm very important."},{"startTime":1836.95,"endTime":1837.29,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1837.46,"endTime":1837.69,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1837.69,"endTime":1841.68,"body":"Well, enjoy your life as long as it lasts"},{"startTime":1837.69,"endTime":1841.68,"body":"in that company, because you know, another"},{"startTime":1841.68,"endTime":1845.8,"body":"company that you might go to, cause your"},{"startTime":1841.68,"endTime":1845.8,"body":"company goes belly up or whatever happens."},{"startTime":1846.15,"endTime":1847.2,"body":"You good luck getting hired."},{"startTime":1847.4,"endTime":1851.06,"body":"They may not prize that"},{"startTime":1847.4,"endTime":1851.06,"body":"kind of a person, right?"},{"startTime":1851.06,"endTime":1853.11,"body":"They may be looking for those soft skills."},{"startTime":1853.11,"endTime":1857.695,"body":"They may be looking for some leadership"},{"startTime":1853.11,"endTime":1857.695,"body":"and if you don't have that you're"},{"startTime":1857.725,"endTime":1859.285,"body":"probably not going to land that job."},{"startTime":1859.435,"endTime":1861.815,"body":"So the next thing I want to"},{"startTime":1859.435,"endTime":1861.815,"body":"talk about is building trust."},{"startTime":1861.965,"endTime":1864.535,"body":"Building trust, because again,"},{"startTime":1861.965,"endTime":1864.535,"body":"you leave the feature factory."},{"startTime":1864.855,"endTime":1867.285,"body":"There's really no value in doing"},{"startTime":1864.855,"endTime":1867.285,"body":"this in the feature factory."},{"startTime":1867.395,"endTime":1868.275,"body":"You told what to do."},{"startTime":1868.575,"endTime":1869.535,"body":"Why are you still here?"},{"startTime":1869.545,"endTime":1870.425,"body":"Get out of my office."},{"startTime":1870.445,"endTime":1875.775,"body":"I don't want to talk about building"},{"startTime":1870.445,"endTime":1875.775,"body":"trust, but when you move into a structure"},{"startTime":1875.775,"endTime":1878.855,"body":"that's more flat, especially in product"},{"startTime":1875.775,"endTime":1878.855,"body":"management you have to have a lot of"},{"startTime":1879.005,"endTime":1882.565,"body":"one on ones, a lot of calls that are"},{"startTime":1879.005,"endTime":1882.565,"body":"just getting to know you type of calls."},{"startTime":1882.565,"endTime":1883.975,"body":"You have to manage personal relationships."},{"startTime":1884.225,"endTime":1887.995,"body":"We flashed the Roman Pitchler"},{"startTime":1884.225,"endTime":1887.995,"body":"stakeholder management quad on the,"},{"startTime":1888.005,"endTime":1889.585,"body":"which I might link in this podcast."},{"startTime":1889.585,"endTime":1893.705,"body":"If, if I'm, if editing Brian is"},{"startTime":1889.585,"endTime":1893.705,"body":"gracious to us, you never know what"},{"startTime":1893.705,"endTime":1894.635,"body":"you get out of that guy though."},{"startTime":1894.785,"endTime":1897.665,"body":"Building relationships with"},{"startTime":1894.785,"endTime":1897.665,"body":"people at different frequencies,"},{"startTime":1897.665,"endTime":1900.815,"body":"different touch points, depending"},{"startTime":1897.665,"endTime":1900.815,"body":"on how important they are, right?"},{"startTime":1900.965,"endTime":1902.625,"body":"All that is meaningless."},{"startTime":1902.775,"endTime":1906.325,"body":"In the feature factory, maybe"},{"startTime":1902.775,"endTime":1906.325,"body":"nearly nearly meaningless."},{"startTime":1906.325,"endTime":1907.225,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1907.375,"endTime":1911.785,"body":"You may on the off chance encounter"},{"startTime":1907.375,"endTime":1911.785,"body":"somebody who might understand"},{"startTime":1911.785,"endTime":1913.085,"body":"one or two aspects of this."},{"startTime":1913.115,"endTime":1914.175,"body":"And that's about it."},{"startTime":1914.195,"endTime":1916.795,"body":"Only when you're trying to"},{"startTime":1914.195,"endTime":1916.795,"body":"get something out of somebody."},{"startTime":1916.865,"endTime":1917.395,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":1917.395,"endTime":1918.395,"body":"Do you need to do that?"},{"startTime":1918.605,"endTime":1919.955,"body":"Right, exactly."},{"startTime":1920.105,"endTime":1921.505,"body":"Building trust is a great topic."},{"startTime":1921.505,"endTime":1924.605,"body":"I feel you know, how do you, there's"},{"startTime":1921.505,"endTime":1924.605,"body":"no real, there's plenty of books,"},{"startTime":1924.615,"endTime":1925.935,"body":"first of all, that talk about this."},{"startTime":1925.965,"endTime":1926.225,"body":"But."},{"startTime":1926.375,"endTime":1930.055,"body":"How do you implement that advice that"},{"startTime":1926.375,"endTime":1930.055,"body":"you read in the books building trust?"},{"startTime":1930.205,"endTime":1933.075,"body":"Well, first of all, I think you've"},{"startTime":1930.205,"endTime":1933.075,"body":"got to, you've got to know the"},{"startTime":1933.075,"endTime":1936.165,"body":"other people to point about these"},{"startTime":1933.075,"endTime":1936.165,"body":"calls, you've got to know the other"},{"startTime":1936.165,"endTime":1937.625,"body":"people that you're working with."},{"startTime":1937.675,"endTime":1941.385,"body":"You're not working with parts of"},{"startTime":1937.675,"endTime":1941.385,"body":"another machine or anything like that."},{"startTime":1941.395,"endTime":1943.195,"body":"These are individuals, right?"},{"startTime":1943.195,"endTime":1943.945,"body":"They have lives."},{"startTime":1944.095,"endTime":1946.385,"body":"They have families, they have this."},{"startTime":1946.435,"endTime":1950.085,"body":", so get to understand your"},{"startTime":1946.435,"endTime":1950.085,"body":"colleagues as colleagues."},{"startTime":1950.085,"endTime":1950.265,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1950.58,"endTime":1953.11,"body":"Not as titles essentially."},{"startTime":1953.26,"endTime":1957.08,"body":"And once you understand them, you may find"},{"startTime":1953.26,"endTime":1957.08,"body":"that you have things in common with them."},{"startTime":1957.23,"endTime":1960.02,"body":"And now you can start"},{"startTime":1957.23,"endTime":1960.02,"body":"to formulate that trust."},{"startTime":1960.24,"endTime":1963.1,"body":"Another way to put it is you could,"},{"startTime":1960.24,"endTime":1963.1,"body":"you could start to break down the"},{"startTime":1963.1,"endTime":1966.81,"body":"trust barrier between you and the"},{"startTime":1963.1,"endTime":1966.81,"body":"other person or people for that matter."},{"startTime":1966.96,"endTime":1970.48,"body":"And yeah, , look, there are things that"},{"startTime":1966.96,"endTime":1970.48,"body":"can help like team building exercises,"},{"startTime":1970.51,"endTime":1975.11,"body":"things like that can help, but they're"},{"startTime":1970.51,"endTime":1975.11,"body":"not enough because you yourself have"},{"startTime":1975.11,"endTime":1979.13,"body":"to say, okay, I trust you to do this"},{"startTime":1975.11,"endTime":1979.13,"body":"or I trust you to give me your opinion."},{"startTime":1979.28,"endTime":1982.84,"body":"So that's the extra step other than"},{"startTime":1979.28,"endTime":1982.84,"body":"just simply the gamification of it."},{"startTime":1982.86,"endTime":1983.08,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1983.23,"endTime":1986.74,"body":"the other thing about moving to like when"},{"startTime":1983.23,"endTime":1986.74,"body":"you're kind of shopping around for another"},{"startTime":1986.74,"endTime":1990.19,"body":"culture and you're in the interviewing and"},{"startTime":1986.74,"endTime":1990.19,"body":"you're asking questions about Hey, what do"},{"startTime":1990.19,"endTime":1993.42,"body":"you, what do you guys do organizationally"},{"startTime":1990.19,"endTime":1993.42,"body":"to continually build trust?"},{"startTime":1993.57,"endTime":1997.55,"body":"Oh boy, I don't so when you ask that"},{"startTime":1993.57,"endTime":1997.55,"body":"question, sometimes you get you get"},{"startTime":1997.55,"endTime":2002.05,"body":"responses like, well, we have a Friday"},{"startTime":1997.55,"endTime":2002.05,"body":"pizzas together or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":2002.2,"endTime":2003.52,"body":"It's not really building trust."},{"startTime":2003.57,"endTime":2004.35,"body":", I'll take a pizza."},{"startTime":2004.5,"endTime":2005.23,"body":"I like pizza."},{"startTime":2005.4,"endTime":2006.38,"body":"Never turned out a pizza."},{"startTime":2006.56,"endTime":2007.03,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":2007.09,"endTime":2008.12,"body":"I can't nevermind."},{"startTime":2008.44,"endTime":2011.15,"body":"No, it's so that you, you get"},{"startTime":2008.44,"endTime":2011.15,"body":"those kinds of things, right?"},{"startTime":2011.31,"endTime":2014.21,"body":"We have a social room"},{"startTime":2011.31,"endTime":2014.21,"body":"where people can Play."},{"startTime":2014.32,"endTime":2015.13,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2015.13,"endTime":2015.9,"body":"Foosball, right."},{"startTime":2015.91,"endTime":2018.96,"body":"During that day, if they want,"},{"startTime":2015.91,"endTime":2018.96,"body":"that's not really building trust."},{"startTime":2018.96,"endTime":2019.21,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2019.23,"endTime":2023.39,"body":"So I think that the new generation"},{"startTime":2019.23,"endTime":2023.39,"body":"is looking beyond that, right?"},{"startTime":2023.39,"endTime":2026.51,"body":"They're looking at the actual culture"},{"startTime":2023.39,"endTime":2026.51,"body":"and see if their voice is heard."},{"startTime":2026.66,"endTime":2029.83,"body":"Do they have opportunities to"},{"startTime":2026.66,"endTime":2029.83,"body":"contribute elsewhere other than"},{"startTime":2029.83,"endTime":2031.08,"body":"just what they're hired for?"},{"startTime":2031.23,"endTime":2033.78,"body":"So if you're if you're in that"},{"startTime":2031.23,"endTime":2033.78,"body":"organization, you want to build"},{"startTime":2033.78,"endTime":2035.97,"body":"trust, open these avenues up, right?"},{"startTime":2036.01,"endTime":2037.76,"body":"Let people have some time."},{"startTime":2037.81,"endTime":2040.15,"body":"To do some skunk works"},{"startTime":2037.81,"endTime":2040.15,"body":"type of work, right?"},{"startTime":2040.46,"endTime":2041.51,"body":"Just go court something."},{"startTime":2041.66,"endTime":2044.7,"body":"It doesn't have to be anything that"},{"startTime":2041.66,"endTime":2044.7,"body":"you necessarily put into your product."},{"startTime":2044.76,"endTime":2045.78,"body":"Learn something from that."},{"startTime":2045.93,"endTime":2050.09,"body":"Do some skills building without"},{"startTime":2045.93,"endTime":2050.09,"body":"micromanagement, without micromanagement."},{"startTime":2050.09,"endTime":2050.57,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2050.58,"endTime":2051.95,"body":"That's, that's the key here."},{"startTime":2051.98,"endTime":2052.24,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2052.24,"endTime":2055.28,"body":"Autonomously basically just"},{"startTime":2052.24,"endTime":2055.28,"body":"say, go go spend half a day."},{"startTime":2055.54,"endTime":2056.11,"body":"And, and."},{"startTime":2056.26,"endTime":2059.34,"body":"You know, collaborate with one"},{"startTime":2056.26,"endTime":2059.34,"body":"another and see what you can build."},{"startTime":2059.5,"endTime":2064.36,"body":"Yeah, in product management they"},{"startTime":2059.5,"endTime":2064.36,"body":"sometimes have a difficult time with"},{"startTime":2064.36,"endTime":2066.94,"body":"that because they'll say, Oh, well"},{"startTime":2064.36,"endTime":2066.94,"body":"don't work on that because that's this"},{"startTime":2066.94,"endTime":2069.69,"body":"other product, or that's the, that's"},{"startTime":2066.94,"endTime":2069.69,"body":"the purview of this other product."},{"startTime":2069.69,"endTime":2074.2,"body":"Well, You can, although I'm"},{"startTime":2069.69,"endTime":2074.2,"body":"not the biggest fan of fluid"},{"startTime":2074.42,"endTime":2075.75,"body":"teams, that kind of concept."},{"startTime":2075.75,"endTime":2076.86,"body":"And that's a whole nother podcast."},{"startTime":2077.01,"endTime":2080.59,"body":"You can bring the work to the team,"},{"startTime":2077.01,"endTime":2080.59,"body":"even if they have to reach across"},{"startTime":2080.59,"endTime":2083.36,"body":"program or another team's basically"},{"startTime":2080.59,"endTime":2083.36,"body":"the default behavior should be"},{"startTime":2083.36,"endTime":2085.88,"body":"trust Hey, we want to do this thing."},{"startTime":2086.03,"endTime":2088.78,"body":"This team's overloaded and"},{"startTime":2086.03,"endTime":2088.78,"body":"their stuff is all priority."},{"startTime":2088.83,"endTime":2091.94,"body":"Can we use this other team or this"},{"startTime":2088.83,"endTime":2091.94,"body":"other roadmap or whatever to accomplish?"},{"startTime":2091.95,"endTime":2092.56,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":2092.61,"endTime":2092.83,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2092.83,"endTime":2093.12,"body":"You can."},{"startTime":2093.27,"endTime":2096.74,"body":"You know, I think on the path to"},{"startTime":2093.27,"endTime":2096.74,"body":"building trust, you gotta lead by"},{"startTime":2096.74,"endTime":2100.5,"body":"example, lead by example, people"},{"startTime":2096.74,"endTime":2100.5,"body":"mimic the behavior they like."},{"startTime":2100.65,"endTime":2104.93,"body":"So if you do that and you're seen to be"},{"startTime":2100.65,"endTime":2104.93,"body":"the person who trusts others, hopefully"},{"startTime":2104.93,"endTime":2106.64,"body":"that rubs off on people, you know?"},{"startTime":2106.66,"endTime":2110.05,"body":"And when you see someone trusting"},{"startTime":2106.66,"endTime":2110.05,"body":"someone or asking someone's"},{"startTime":2110.05,"endTime":2111.33,"body":"opinion or something like that."},{"startTime":2111.48,"endTime":2114.45,"body":"Go ahead and call out that and"},{"startTime":2111.48,"endTime":2114.45,"body":"say good job on doing it that way."},{"startTime":2114.56,"endTime":2114.85,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2114.85,"endTime":2117.2,"body":"Yeah, that's, it's a slow"},{"startTime":2114.85,"endTime":2117.2,"body":"battle, but you can win it."},{"startTime":2117.35,"endTime":2121.29,"body":"Well, speaking of calling out wins let's,"},{"startTime":2117.35,"endTime":2121.29,"body":"let's talk about that one because I feel"},{"startTime":2121.29,"endTime":2124.01,"body":"like in the feature factory, the only time"},{"startTime":2121.29,"endTime":2124.01,"body":"you get any attention is when you screw"},{"startTime":2124.01,"endTime":2129.256,"body":"up and celebrating small wins it may be"},{"startTime":2124.01,"endTime":2129.256,"body":"minor to people listening to this podcast"},{"startTime":2129.256,"endTime":2130.9,"body":"that maybe, maybe not, I don't know."},{"startTime":2131.05,"endTime":2131.31,"body":"But."},{"startTime":2131.46,"endTime":2135.76,"body":"Something as small as the achieving"},{"startTime":2131.46,"endTime":2135.76,"body":"a sprint goal or putting out an"},{"startTime":2135.77,"endTime":2137.46,"body":"MVP and getting feedback from it."},{"startTime":2137.66,"endTime":2141.64,"body":"Or like demonstrating that you've"},{"startTime":2137.66,"endTime":2141.64,"body":"successfully moved to smaller, more"},{"startTime":2141.64,"endTime":2146.54,"body":"frequent releases, or that you came"},{"startTime":2141.64,"endTime":2146.54,"body":"online with some CICD technology"},{"startTime":2146.54,"endTime":2148.46,"body":"that allows you now to release."},{"startTime":2148.61,"endTime":2153.04,"body":"On demand instead of holding everything"},{"startTime":2148.61,"endTime":2153.04,"body":"to the end of the two week sprint or Lord"},{"startTime":2153.04,"endTime":2155.46,"body":"forbid Three months or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":2155.57,"endTime":2159.67,"body":"Celebrating small evolutionary"},{"startTime":2155.57,"endTime":2159.67,"body":"wins In in your teams and their"},{"startTime":2159.67,"endTime":2161.34,"body":"technology On a regular basis."},{"startTime":2161.37,"endTime":2164.05,"body":"Usually this stuff falls between"},{"startTime":2161.37,"endTime":2164.05,"body":"the cracks because it's again."},{"startTime":2164.05,"endTime":2169.325,"body":"It's it's not anyone's Persons, you"},{"startTime":2164.05,"endTime":2169.325,"body":"know The manager's job to put, put"},{"startTime":2169.325,"endTime":2172.765,"body":"the stuff on a list and show it at"},{"startTime":2169.325,"endTime":2172.765,"body":"the company meeting once a month or"},{"startTime":2172.765,"endTime":2176.895,"body":"whatever but a leader should be aware"},{"startTime":2172.765,"endTime":2176.895,"body":"of that this is important, right?"},{"startTime":2176.945,"endTime":2179.175,"body":"First of all, it's super"},{"startTime":2176.945,"endTime":2179.175,"body":"motivational for people."},{"startTime":2179.475,"endTime":2181.745,"body":"If you just give them a"},{"startTime":2179.475,"endTime":2181.745,"body":"pat on the back, right?"},{"startTime":2181.945,"endTime":2185.985,"body":"So if you're a good leader, you"},{"startTime":2181.945,"endTime":2185.985,"body":"know this and it costs nothing."},{"startTime":2186.135,"endTime":2186.315,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2186.335,"endTime":2186.875,"body":"To do this."},{"startTime":2186.875,"endTime":2187.045,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2187.055,"endTime":2187.705,"body":"That's the thing."},{"startTime":2187.715,"endTime":2189.135,"body":"The barrier is so low, right?"},{"startTime":2189.135,"endTime":2189.565,"body":"Come on."},{"startTime":2189.755,"endTime":2192.105,"body":"Why would you not"},{"startTime":2189.755,"endTime":2192.105,"body":"celebrate with small wins?"},{"startTime":2192.115,"endTime":2195.905,"body":"Why you would not is because you, in"},{"startTime":2192.115,"endTime":2195.905,"body":"the feature factory, you are, you,"},{"startTime":2196.055,"endTime":2200.265,"body":"you have been conditioned to this"},{"startTime":2196.055,"endTime":2200.265,"body":"culture where getting attention from"},{"startTime":2200.265,"endTime":2201.705,"body":"management is only ever negative."},{"startTime":2201.855,"endTime":2202.015,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2202.265,"endTime":2205.955,"body":"And, only when they're, when they're"},{"startTime":2202.265,"endTime":2205.955,"body":"positive, they're being disingenuous"},{"startTime":2205.955,"endTime":2206.965,"body":"because they want something."},{"startTime":2207.115,"endTime":2208.605,"body":"Yeah, that's the culture"},{"startTime":2207.115,"endTime":2208.605,"body":"you're coming from."},{"startTime":2208.605,"endTime":2212.765,"body":"So you, so you're, so when you, when you"},{"startTime":2208.605,"endTime":2212.765,"body":"get, when you're celebrating small wins,"},{"startTime":2212.775,"endTime":2214.485,"body":"you're expecting the other shoe to drop."},{"startTime":2214.485,"endTime":2216.895,"body":"You're expecting something"},{"startTime":2214.485,"endTime":2216.895,"body":"negative to happen."},{"startTime":2217.045,"endTime":2221.265,"body":"And you have to realize that, Oh, this"},{"startTime":2217.045,"endTime":2221.265,"body":"is a bad behavior that I programmed."},{"startTime":2221.415,"endTime":2222.475,"body":"It's been programmed to me."},{"startTime":2222.515,"endTime":2224.325,"body":"I don't know that, that"},{"startTime":2222.515,"endTime":2224.325,"body":"I've been conditioned with."},{"startTime":2224.375,"endTime":2224.725,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2224.785,"endTime":2228.275,"body":"You got to break that because again, it's"},{"startTime":2224.785,"endTime":2228.275,"body":"going to hold, like people will feel that."},{"startTime":2228.425,"endTime":2229.775,"body":"You know, definitely, definitely."},{"startTime":2229.775,"endTime":2230.145,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2230.185,"endTime":2233.845,"body":"And unfortunately in those kinds of"},{"startTime":2230.185,"endTime":2233.845,"body":"environments, feature factories, it"},{"startTime":2233.845,"endTime":2237.965,"body":"doesn't matter if you just say it for"},{"startTime":2233.845,"endTime":2237.965,"body":"the sake of saying it, people know that."},{"startTime":2238.275,"endTime":2238.595,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2238.665,"endTime":2239.775,"body":"And so, yeah."},{"startTime":2239.775,"endTime":2244.075,"body":"And, and some, someone who makes a"},{"startTime":2239.775,"endTime":2244.075,"body":"mistake or the team, whatever small"},{"startTime":2244.075,"endTime":2246.865,"body":"failure there is we're talking about"},{"startTime":2244.075,"endTime":2246.865,"body":"celebrating wins, but if there's"},{"startTime":2246.865,"endTime":2248.335,"body":"a small failure and the team."},{"startTime":2248.485,"endTime":2250.115,"body":"Reflects on it and learn something."},{"startTime":2250.175,"endTime":2253.545,"body":"Celebrate that and just say that"},{"startTime":2250.175,"endTime":2253.545,"body":"that was a good lesson learned."},{"startTime":2253.695,"endTime":2257.155,"body":"But in the feature factory, the teams"},{"startTime":2253.695,"endTime":2257.155,"body":"just basically keep their heads down."},{"startTime":2257.425,"endTime":2257.765,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2257.825,"endTime":2260.455,"body":"And just do things they"},{"startTime":2257.825,"endTime":2260.455,"body":"don't necessarily retrospect."},{"startTime":2260.735,"endTime":2260.945,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2260.955,"endTime":2263.595,"body":"There's no time for that because"},{"startTime":2260.955,"endTime":2263.595,"body":"it highlights the failure."},{"startTime":2263.745,"endTime":2264.025,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2264.175,"endTime":2265.105,"body":"It's looked down upon."},{"startTime":2265.195,"endTime":2267.115,"body":"That's exactly where I"},{"startTime":2265.195,"endTime":2267.115,"body":"would seek to build this in."},{"startTime":2267.115,"endTime":2270.575,"body":"I'd build it in with time"},{"startTime":2267.115,"endTime":2270.575,"body":"after the retrospective."},{"startTime":2270.615,"endTime":2273.715,"body":"You know, maybe if, again, if you're"},{"startTime":2270.615,"endTime":2273.715,"body":"in person you have a little more"},{"startTime":2273.715,"endTime":2274.865,"body":"opportunity than a lot of teams have."},{"startTime":2275.015,"endTime":2277.625,"body":"If you're in person you have the"},{"startTime":2275.015,"endTime":2277.625,"body":"opportunity to get everyone together."},{"startTime":2277.775,"endTime":2279.855,"body":"Do the retrospective for lunch"},{"startTime":2277.775,"endTime":2279.855,"body":"and then take everyone out"},{"startTime":2279.855,"endTime":2281.805,"body":"for team lunch to celebrate."},{"startTime":2282.075,"endTime":2283.175,"body":"It's their favorite day."},{"startTime":2283.375,"endTime":2283.475,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2283.765,"endTime":2287.725,"body":", it used to work really well before the"},{"startTime":2283.765,"endTime":2287.725,"body":"pandemic when we did that on our teams."},{"startTime":2287.815,"endTime":2288.065,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2288.275,"endTime":2288.735,"body":"It was great."},{"startTime":2288.945,"endTime":2290.335,"body":"free food always makes me happy."},{"startTime":2290.385,"endTime":2291.445,"body":"I don't know, it tastes better."},{"startTime":2291.445,"endTime":2294.625,"body":"That's why at the end of the"},{"startTime":2291.445,"endTime":2294.625,"body":"day, the pushback against it is"},{"startTime":2294.625,"endTime":2295.615,"body":"we don't have budget for that."},{"startTime":2295.895,"endTime":2296.175,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2296.215,"endTime":2299.205,"body":"And I laughed and I'm like, the amount"},{"startTime":2296.215,"endTime":2299.205,"body":"of trust you're building and the"},{"startTime":2299.245,"endTime":2303.145,"body":"camaraderie you're building, come on,"},{"startTime":2299.245,"endTime":2303.145,"body":"how much does a lunch cost anyway?"},{"startTime":2303.355,"endTime":2306.415,"body":"any team should be able to lobby for that."},{"startTime":2306.595,"endTime":2310.21,"body":"And again, you got to have, Someone"},{"startTime":2306.595,"endTime":2310.21,"body":"on the team that says, Hey, we"},{"startTime":2310.21,"endTime":2312.09,"body":"need to do this right again."},{"startTime":2312.24,"endTime":2314.0,"body":"Be bold, be brave to ask."},{"startTime":2314.07,"endTime":2316.59,"body":"As you never know, you"},{"startTime":2314.07,"endTime":2316.59,"body":"might get a try, try it."},{"startTime":2316.68,"endTime":2319.25,"body":"Just say, well, let's try it for"},{"startTime":2316.68,"endTime":2319.25,"body":"a couple of sprints or whatever."},{"startTime":2319.25,"endTime":2320.17,"body":"And you see how it goes."},{"startTime":2320.32,"endTime":2323.56,"body":"I'm telling you now, free"},{"startTime":2320.32,"endTime":2323.56,"body":"lunch is always appreciated."},{"startTime":2323.57,"endTime":2326.67,"body":"That's a great motivator for me,"},{"startTime":2323.57,"endTime":2326.67,"body":"especially I'm getting hungry"},{"startTime":2326.79,"endTime":2327.98,"body":"just now talking about it."},{"startTime":2328.19,"endTime":2329.7,"body":"You mentioned failures."},{"startTime":2329.85,"endTime":2335.09,"body":"And that made my brain think  you have"},{"startTime":2329.85,"endTime":2335.09,"body":"to adjust where failure and setbacks"},{"startTime":2335.24,"endTime":2339.15,"body":"are not a four letter word anymore,"},{"startTime":2335.24,"endTime":2339.15,"body":"where failure and setbacks is just"},{"startTime":2339.16,"endTime":2344.13,"body":"viewed as a normal cost of doing"},{"startTime":2339.16,"endTime":2344.13,"body":"business in developing new things."},{"startTime":2344.28,"endTime":2344.66,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2344.74,"endTime":2346.08,"body":"And in software development,"},{"startTime":2346.08,"endTime":2347.71,"body":"I think we have a podcast on this."},{"startTime":2347.76,"endTime":2348.5,"body":"I thought we did."},{"startTime":2348.78,"endTime":2349.19,"body":"We did."},{"startTime":2349.19,"endTime":2349.44,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2349.44,"endTime":2350.85,"body":"We have a podcast on failure."},{"startTime":2350.95,"endTime":2351.31,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2351.35,"endTime":2351.82,"body":"We did."},{"startTime":2351.97,"endTime":2354.57,"body":"So here's the dichotomy I have."},{"startTime":2354.85,"endTime":2358.86,"body":"If a team fails, then in the feature"},{"startTime":2354.85,"endTime":2358.86,"body":"factory, it would be like, well, you"},{"startTime":2358.86,"endTime":2360.24,"body":"didn't get the requirements, right?"},{"startTime":2360.34,"endTime":2362.19,"body":"So next time do a thorough job."},{"startTime":2362.19,"endTime":2362.5,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2362.5,"endTime":2362.81,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2362.96,"endTime":2366.71,"body":"Cross all the T's, dot all the"},{"startTime":2362.96,"endTime":2366.71,"body":"I's, and get sign off in blood."},{"startTime":2366.86,"endTime":2369.46,"body":"So it kind of works against"},{"startTime":2366.86,"endTime":2369.46,"body":"you in that culture."},{"startTime":2369.46,"endTime":2370.54,"body":"We didn't test this well enough."},{"startTime":2370.55,"endTime":2371.12,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2371.13,"endTime":2374.15,"body":"So now, now everything's got"},{"startTime":2371.13,"endTime":2374.15,"body":"to spend more time in testing."},{"startTime":2374.15,"endTime":2374.68,"body":"Yeah, I know."},{"startTime":2374.68,"endTime":2375.56,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2375.81,"endTime":2379.02,"body":"So the focus is in the wrong place"},{"startTime":2375.81,"endTime":2379.02,"body":"in that case, obviously, right?"},{"startTime":2379.07,"endTime":2383.64,"body":"So that contrasts to the other"},{"startTime":2379.07,"endTime":2383.64,"body":"culture where failure happens, right?"},{"startTime":2383.89,"endTime":2387.28,"body":"And people dust themselves off, get up"},{"startTime":2383.89,"endTime":2387.28,"body":"and say, I'm Well, that didn't work."},{"startTime":2387.28,"endTime":2389.24,"body":"So we're going to try"},{"startTime":2387.28,"endTime":2389.24,"body":"something different again."},{"startTime":2389.28,"endTime":2391.44,"body":"We've talked about this"},{"startTime":2389.28,"endTime":2391.44,"body":"on several podcasts."},{"startTime":2391.44,"endTime":2395.64,"body":"If you're in that culture where people"},{"startTime":2391.44,"endTime":2395.64,"body":"are saying, it's not necessarily"},{"startTime":2395.64,"endTime":2398.23,"body":"saying it's okay to fail, but they're"},{"startTime":2395.64,"endTime":2398.23,"body":"saying, they're not saying it's"},{"startTime":2398.24,"endTime":2402.2,"body":"bad to fail in that culture, treat"},{"startTime":2398.24,"endTime":2402.2,"body":"things as an experiment, right?"},{"startTime":2402.35,"endTime":2403.87,"body":"So retros are a good idea."},{"startTime":2403.87,"endTime":2406.51,"body":"After the retro, you just say, look,"},{"startTime":2403.87,"endTime":2406.51,"body":"well, we're going to try differently."},{"startTime":2406.66,"endTime":2409.39,"body":"And it's not, this is how we're"},{"startTime":2406.66,"endTime":2409.39,"body":"going to be from now onwards."},{"startTime":2409.39,"endTime":2409.58,"body":"It's."},{"startTime":2410.08,"endTime":2411.17,"body":"Try for a sprint or two."},{"startTime":2411.23,"endTime":2415.92,"body":"If it doesn't work, feel free to change"},{"startTime":2411.23,"endTime":2415.92,"body":"up, but push that decision of adopting"},{"startTime":2415.92,"endTime":2420.54,"body":"something or a new practice or a pivot in"},{"startTime":2415.92,"endTime":2420.54,"body":"your practice or whatever onto the team."},{"startTime":2420.79,"endTime":2423.56,"body":"So how do you want to change"},{"startTime":2420.79,"endTime":2423.56,"body":"the way you're working now?"},{"startTime":2423.71,"endTime":2424.92,"body":"And why don't we try it?"},{"startTime":2425.07,"endTime":2430.04,"body":"When I think about a company or a team"},{"startTime":2425.07,"endTime":2430.04,"body":"that's not okay with failure, or that"},{"startTime":2430.04,"endTime":2434.34,"body":"seeks to find blame and cast off the"},{"startTime":2430.04,"endTime":2434.34,"body":"blame, right, cast off the failure,"},{"startTime":2434.49,"endTime":2438.89,"body":"I think about teams that I've been on"},{"startTime":2434.49,"endTime":2438.89,"body":"that have been like this, where the"},{"startTime":2438.9,"endTime":2444.26,"body":"management has no patience for anything"},{"startTime":2438.9,"endTime":2444.26,"body":"other than whatever the plan was."},{"startTime":2444.41,"endTime":2447.66,"body":"That we started on right they have"},{"startTime":2444.41,"endTime":2447.66,"body":"no patience for any deviation from"},{"startTime":2447.66,"endTime":2450.51,"body":"the plan Even though the deviations"},{"startTime":2447.66,"endTime":2450.51,"body":"were for the right reasons."},{"startTime":2450.8,"endTime":2453.32,"body":"They don't care because you share"},{"startTime":2450.8,"endTime":2453.32,"body":"you share the plan with them and it"},{"startTime":2453.32,"endTime":2455.56,"body":"became A set of expectations, right?"},{"startTime":2455.58,"endTime":2458.48,"body":"You're gonna deliver on this date"},{"startTime":2455.58,"endTime":2458.48,"body":"that it says so on the Gantt chart"},{"startTime":2458.48,"endTime":2461.86,"body":"Yeah, and you say yeah, but you"},{"startTime":2458.48,"endTime":2461.86,"body":"know They don't hear the rest of it."},{"startTime":2461.94,"endTime":2466.66,"body":"Yeah, but organizationally they also"},{"startTime":2461.94,"endTime":2466.66,"body":"have no resilience basically, correct?"},{"startTime":2466.68,"endTime":2469.92,"body":"Like they can't handle any deviation"},{"startTime":2466.68,"endTime":2469.92,"body":"that you know that they have they"},{"startTime":2469.93,"endTime":2473.62,"body":"have they probably have very little"},{"startTime":2469.93,"endTime":2473.62,"body":"creativity organizationally At the"},{"startTime":2473.62,"endTime":2478.14,"body":"same time, well, they certainly have"},{"startTime":2473.62,"endTime":2478.14,"body":"very low to no trust because the person"},{"startTime":2478.14,"endTime":2483.28,"body":"who is looking at that and admonishing"},{"startTime":2478.14,"endTime":2483.28,"body":"the team is reporting up and feeling"},{"startTime":2483.28,"endTime":2487.65,"body":"the same from his or her superior and"},{"startTime":2483.28,"endTime":2487.65,"body":"it goes on and on like that, right?"},{"startTime":2487.67,"endTime":2489.99,"body":"So that's pervasive in the culture, right?"},{"startTime":2490.09,"endTime":2494.3,"body":"If you're in that kind of environment"},{"startTime":2490.09,"endTime":2494.3,"body":"stick to your team and try and change"},{"startTime":2494.31,"endTime":2496.61,"body":"from that level and see if it spreads."},{"startTime":2496.64,"endTime":2500.56,"body":"If not, we always fall back to our"},{"startTime":2496.64,"endTime":2500.56,"body":"other advice, keep your resume updated."},{"startTime":2500.71,"endTime":2503.89,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I , keep their"},{"startTime":2500.71,"endTime":2503.89,"body":"resume updated always is valid."},{"startTime":2503.89,"endTime":2507.32,"body":"But at this point, I assume that"},{"startTime":2503.89,"endTime":2507.32,"body":"your resume is updated because you"},{"startTime":2507.32,"endTime":2510.57,"body":"do realize that you're, you're sick"},{"startTime":2507.32,"endTime":2510.57,"body":"of working for management that has"},{"startTime":2510.57,"endTime":2514.02,"body":"no patients and and have to have"},{"startTime":2510.57,"endTime":2514.02,"body":"everything planned and can't do anything"},{"startTime":2514.02,"endTime":2515.93,"body":"out of the off the script basically."},{"startTime":2516.08,"endTime":2516.3,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2516.32,"endTime":2516.61,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2516.86,"endTime":2520.17,"body":"But you know, again, the, the idea with"},{"startTime":2516.86,"endTime":2520.17,"body":"this podcast is that you've already taken"},{"startTime":2520.17,"endTime":2523.18,"body":"the leap that you need to change and"},{"startTime":2520.17,"endTime":2523.18,"body":"you want to, but you've you know, you"},{"startTime":2523.19,"endTime":2527.13,"body":"got all these bad behaviors holding you"},{"startTime":2523.19,"endTime":2527.13,"body":"back or these, and they may not be bad."},{"startTime":2527.13,"endTime":2529.22,"body":"They served you well up until this point."},{"startTime":2529.35,"endTime":2529.66,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2529.67,"endTime":2530.82,"body":"But if you want to evolve."},{"startTime":2530.97,"endTime":2531.77,"body":"You got to change."},{"startTime":2531.97,"endTime":2532.3,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2532.36,"endTime":2533.16,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2533.16,"endTime":2535.56,"body":"So hopefully we've given you something"},{"startTime":2533.16,"endTime":2535.56,"body":"to think about if you're looking"},{"startTime":2535.56,"endTime":2537.48,"body":"to escape the feature factory."},{"startTime":2537.63,"endTime":2538.74,"body":"Escaping the feature factory."},{"startTime":2538.75,"endTime":2542.15,"body":"Yeah, let us know your"},{"startTime":2538.75,"endTime":2542.15,"body":"thoughts in the comments below."},{"startTime":2542.2,"endTime":2545.72,"body":"And we're always welcome new topics"},{"startTime":2542.2,"endTime":2545.72,"body":"that you'd like us to tackle."}]}