{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"welcome to the arguing the Agile podcast"},{"startTime":1.7,"endTime":4.97,"body":"where enterprise business agility"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"coach Om Patel and me product manager"},{"startTime":5.02,"endTime":8.45,"body":"Brian Orlando debate the real world"},{"startTime":8.45,"endTime":10.54,"body":"challenges Agile professionals will face."},{"startTime":10.74,"endTime":12.329,"body":"We are not here to sell you anything."},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"We are here to argue about"},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":17.559,"body":"Agile so that you don't have to."},{"startTime":18.042,"endTime":22.254,"body":"Om, someonee said something to me the"},{"startTime":18.042,"endTime":22.254,"body":"other day and uh, oh boy, it really"},{"startTime":22.254,"endTime":26.454,"body":"upset me it was something along the"},{"startTime":22.254,"endTime":26.454,"body":"lines of Hey, Brian, if it's, if it's"},{"startTime":26.454,"endTime":29.324,"body":"quick, why don't we just implement it?"},{"startTime":29.374,"endTime":34.764,"body":"We don't need to test it with"},{"startTime":29.374,"endTime":34.764,"body":"users or do prototyping or test"},{"startTime":34.764,"endTime":35.694,"body":"it in any way, shape or form."},{"startTime":35.704,"endTime":39.374,"body":"We can just implement it quick"},{"startTime":35.704,"endTime":39.374,"body":"because it's quick because it's great."},{"startTime":39.554,"endTime":43.544,"body":"That's the second thing that somebody"},{"startTime":39.554,"endTime":43.544,"body":"could tell me that would upset me so much."},{"startTime":43.554,"endTime":45.144,"body":"First would be, Oh, you owe me money."},{"startTime":45.474,"endTime":48.624,"body":"Um, listen, we've seen this."},{"startTime":48.664,"endTime":50.164,"body":"The first would be, I don't need coaching."},{"startTime":50.164,"endTime":51.344,"body":"That would be."},{"startTime":52.204,"endTime":54.184,"body":"Yeah, we'll start this array at zero."},{"startTime":54.474,"endTime":55.214,"body":"I'm the expert."},{"startTime":55.214,"endTime":55.754,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":55.764,"endTime":56.074,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":56.114,"endTime":56.784,"body":"I'm the expert."},{"startTime":57.354,"endTime":61.224,"body":"Um, this is not that uncommon,"},{"startTime":57.354,"endTime":61.224,"body":"honestly, because people think about"},{"startTime":61.234,"endTime":65.024,"body":"this and say, Why do we go to the"},{"startTime":61.234,"endTime":65.024,"body":"trouble of doing all of the due"},{"startTime":65.024,"endTime":67.464,"body":"diligence when we can just do it right?"},{"startTime":67.464,"endTime":72.344,"body":"And it is one of those things that"},{"startTime":67.464,"endTime":72.344,"body":"on the if you take it at face value,"},{"startTime":72.344,"endTime":74.554,"body":"and if you take it up to leadership,"},{"startTime":72.344,"endTime":74.554,"body":"they're going to say, Yeah, we're"},{"startTime":74.554,"endTime":76.159,"body":"going to How long is it going to take?"},{"startTime":76.659,"endTime":78.569,"body":"If you want to prove something,"},{"startTime":76.659,"endTime":78.569,"body":"how long is it going to take?"},{"startTime":79.559,"endTime":80.549,"body":"Oh, it's not long."},{"startTime":80.819,"endTime":81.119,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":81.119,"endTime":81.989,"body":"Well, just do it then."},{"startTime":82.359,"endTime":82.599,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":82.969,"endTime":85.849,"body":"You know, the other thing I've"},{"startTime":82.969,"endTime":85.849,"body":"heard is the time it takes us to"},{"startTime":85.849,"endTime":87.079,"body":"talk about what we want to do."},{"startTime":87.109,"endTime":89.449,"body":"I should have already developed it."},{"startTime":89.639,"endTime":90.089,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":90.089,"endTime":91.949,"body":"That looks, that means you"},{"startTime":90.089,"endTime":91.949,"body":"haven't thought about it."},{"startTime":92.119,"endTime":93.009,"body":"So, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":93.019,"endTime":93.989,"body":"So you're right."},{"startTime":94.009,"endTime":94.509,"body":"So you're right."},{"startTime":94.709,"endTime":96.379,"body":"So let's, let's get into this, right?"},{"startTime":96.979,"endTime":100.659,"body":"If you're just going to do it,"},{"startTime":96.979,"endTime":100.659,"body":"you don't even know what it"},{"startTime":100.659,"endTime":101.739,"body":"is that you're going to do."},{"startTime":101.939,"endTime":103.609,"body":"You have an idea."},{"startTime":104.469,"endTime":109.709,"body":"And you have basically just"},{"startTime":104.469,"endTime":109.709,"body":"a, a very, very nuanced view"},{"startTime":109.759,"endTime":110.609,"body":"of what you're going to do."},{"startTime":111.219,"endTime":115.259,"body":"Which is to say, you really"},{"startTime":111.219,"endTime":115.259,"body":"don't know beyond your idea."},{"startTime":115.289,"endTime":116.859,"body":"You haven't thought about it laterally."},{"startTime":117.139,"endTime":119.959,"body":"You haven't thought about"},{"startTime":117.139,"endTime":119.959,"body":"it, you know, widely."},{"startTime":120.309,"endTime":121.549,"body":"What about the repercussions?"},{"startTime":121.599,"endTime":123.719,"body":"Does it align with your current product?"},{"startTime":124.404,"endTime":126.134,"body":"Let, let's, let's go up in the podcast."},{"startTime":126.274,"endTime":128.914,"body":"Let, let me start in the, I"},{"startTime":126.274,"endTime":128.914,"body":"don't know why I'm on this side."},{"startTime":128.964,"endTime":133.894,"body":"I was upset by this when it came up and"},{"startTime":128.964,"endTime":133.894,"body":"I felt like I, I, I felt that I didn't"},{"startTime":133.894,"endTime":136.124,"body":"know why I was reacting negatively."},{"startTime":136.424,"endTime":140.544,"body":"When I was reacting negatively to this,"},{"startTime":136.424,"endTime":140.544,"body":"I couldn't, like I had no, I only had"},{"startTime":140.544,"endTime":144.734,"body":"a feeling of unease and I was like,"},{"startTime":140.544,"endTime":144.734,"body":"I don't want, this is not good, but"},{"startTime":144.754,"endTime":147.084,"body":"in the moment, I couldn't tell why."},{"startTime":147.764,"endTime":148.004,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":148.004,"endTime":152.834,"body":"But the, the, the, there are two things"},{"startTime":148.004,"endTime":152.834,"body":"that I clearly can understand as the"},{"startTime":152.844,"endTime":155.724,"body":"benefit as someone seeing a benefit."},{"startTime":155.954,"endTime":156.234,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":156.404,"endTime":158.504,"body":"If someone's going to see a benefit"},{"startTime":156.404,"endTime":158.504,"body":"for anything that we're about to talk"},{"startTime":158.514,"endTime":160.214,"body":"about, I can clearly see two things."},{"startTime":160.494,"endTime":162.524,"body":"Number one, I can build it."},{"startTime":162.649,"endTime":163.339,"body":"Right away."},{"startTime":163.369,"endTime":165.469,"body":"We don't need to spend a bunch"},{"startTime":163.369,"endTime":165.469,"body":"of time talking about it."},{"startTime":165.499,"endTime":167.829,"body":"We don't need to prototype, but we"},{"startTime":165.499,"endTime":167.829,"body":"don't need to spend a bunch of effort."},{"startTime":167.849,"endTime":169.529,"body":"So two things."},{"startTime":169.549,"endTime":174.199,"body":"Number one is I can, I can build"},{"startTime":169.549,"endTime":174.199,"body":"it into the application faster"},{"startTime":174.199,"endTime":177.419,"body":"than we could prototype and go"},{"startTime":174.199,"endTime":177.419,"body":"back and forth with users on it."},{"startTime":177.599,"endTime":179.889,"body":"So speed of delivery."},{"startTime":180.129,"endTime":180.419,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":180.479,"endTime":183.999,"body":"I can deliver faster than our"},{"startTime":180.479,"endTime":183.999,"body":"feedback cycle works, which"},{"startTime":184.009,"endTime":187.209,"body":"first of all, let's, let's, let's"},{"startTime":184.009,"endTime":187.209,"body":"revisit that here in a second."},{"startTime":187.209,"endTime":187.439,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":187.439,"endTime":190.589,"body":"Let, I know, I know you want to dig"},{"startTime":187.439,"endTime":190.589,"body":"into that because I, even when I"},{"startTime":190.599,"endTime":192.109,"body":"say it, I'm, it sounds ridiculous."},{"startTime":192.109,"endTime":193.129,"body":"The other side of this is."},{"startTime":193.614,"endTime":196.974,"body":"If I don't have to engage a designer,"},{"startTime":193.614,"endTime":196.974,"body":"and I don't have to engage a product"},{"startTime":196.974,"endTime":199.324,"body":"manager, and I don't have to get customers"},{"startTime":196.974,"endTime":199.324,"body":"on the phone, and I don't have to delay"},{"startTime":199.324,"endTime":200.334,"body":"building the feature, or whatever."},{"startTime":200.934,"endTime":205.174,"body":"There, there is a perception"},{"startTime":200.934,"endTime":205.174,"body":"of a reduced upfront cost."},{"startTime":205.224,"endTime":207.314,"body":"I don't have to pay all those"},{"startTime":205.224,"endTime":207.314,"body":"costs to do all that stuff."},{"startTime":207.534,"endTime":210.854,"body":"I'm just going to throw it in the"},{"startTime":207.534,"endTime":210.854,"body":"application, and throw it out there."},{"startTime":211.464,"endTime":215.494,"body":"And also, I feel there is a legitimate"},{"startTime":211.464,"endTime":215.494,"body":"claim in between these two things."},{"startTime":215.514,"endTime":218.354,"body":"I can just do it faster, and"},{"startTime":215.514,"endTime":218.354,"body":"I don't need to prototype it."},{"startTime":218.614,"endTime":223.094,"body":"And to vet that prototype out there, there"},{"startTime":218.614,"endTime":223.094,"body":"is the potential of a fake door feature."},{"startTime":223.334,"endTime":226.914,"body":"I can just throw a button in the"},{"startTime":223.334,"endTime":226.914,"body":"app, throw it out to the, to the,"},{"startTime":226.954,"endTime":230.994,"body":"to the users for a select period of"},{"startTime":226.954,"endTime":230.994,"body":"time, and then toggle it off, right?"},{"startTime":231.884,"endTime":235.014,"body":"Assuming we have good development"},{"startTime":231.884,"endTime":235.014,"body":"practices and then toggle it off after"},{"startTime":235.024,"endTime":238.894,"body":"whatever, 24 hours, 48 hours, however"},{"startTime":235.024,"endTime":238.894,"body":"long you We're doing the test for,"},{"startTime":238.904,"endTime":242.254,"body":"we're, we're running the test and I"},{"startTime":238.904,"endTime":242.254,"body":"can turn it off and now I've, I've"},{"startTime":242.254,"endTime":246.314,"body":"basically introduced that feature"},{"startTime":242.254,"endTime":246.314,"body":"into code direct, you know, instead"},{"startTime":246.314,"endTime":251.964,"body":"of quote, testing it via prototyping"},{"startTime":246.314,"endTime":251.964,"body":"and user groups and whatever else."},{"startTime":252.164,"endTime":257.094,"body":"Those are the two things that I feel"},{"startTime":252.164,"endTime":257.094,"body":"will be used as, uh, to fly the flag of"},{"startTime":257.094,"endTime":259.004,"body":"the banner of, we should do it this way."},{"startTime":259.004,"endTime":263.354,"body":"We should just test ideas by"},{"startTime":259.004,"endTime":263.354,"body":"just implementing the ideas."},{"startTime":264.244,"endTime":268.024,"body":"Meaning either implementing the, the"},{"startTime":264.244,"endTime":268.024,"body":"full blown idea or the, the, the, the"},{"startTime":268.024,"endTime":272.794,"body":"very MVP of the idea and just throwing"},{"startTime":268.024,"endTime":272.794,"body":"it in the application or implementing"},{"startTime":272.794,"endTime":275.854,"body":"a fake door version of the idea and"},{"startTime":272.794,"endTime":275.854,"body":"just throwing it in the application."},{"startTime":275.859,"endTime":278.954,"body":"And then we don't need, you"},{"startTime":275.859,"endTime":278.954,"body":"know, clickable wire frames."},{"startTime":278.954,"endTime":280.814,"body":"We don't need to hire a UI UX designer."},{"startTime":280.814,"endTime":283.724,"body":"We don't need to go through, you"},{"startTime":280.814,"endTime":283.724,"body":"know, having user testing groups."},{"startTime":283.724,"endTime":286.364,"body":"We don't need this, these feedback"},{"startTime":283.724,"endTime":286.364,"body":"cycles and all this kind of stuff."},{"startTime":286.364,"endTime":286.907,"body":"We don't need any of that."},{"startTime":287.584,"endTime":289.684,"body":"We'll test it all live in production."},{"startTime":290.194,"endTime":290.364,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":290.364,"endTime":293.574,"body":"I think there are several ways to"},{"startTime":290.364,"endTime":293.574,"body":"kind of reduce your risk there."},{"startTime":293.574,"endTime":293.844,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":293.844,"endTime":297.944,"body":"So in that, uh, in that scenario, we"},{"startTime":293.844,"endTime":297.944,"body":"said fake door, some people can use it."},{"startTime":297.944,"endTime":302.424,"body":"Maybe, uh, you can maybe just, just"},{"startTime":297.944,"endTime":302.424,"body":"feature toggle the thing away and say,"},{"startTime":302.444,"endTime":304.604,"body":"okay, only a select group of users."},{"startTime":304.869,"endTime":309.159,"body":"Can have the, uh, you know, the key to"},{"startTime":304.869,"endTime":309.159,"body":"unlock the toggle, so to speak, right?"},{"startTime":309.179,"endTime":311.129,"body":"You can do all of those kinds of things."},{"startTime":311.829,"endTime":316.949,"body":"The thing I would like to caution here"},{"startTime":311.829,"endTime":316.949,"body":"is this, how small of a feature is it?"},{"startTime":317.249,"endTime":317.599,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":317.899,"endTime":321.779,"body":"Uh, so if you have a UX component to it"},{"startTime":317.899,"endTime":321.779,"body":"and, and, and, and you're going to say,"},{"startTime":321.779,"endTime":325.819,"body":"just build it, are you using the same"},{"startTime":321.779,"endTime":325.819,"body":"UX standards that you've used so far?"},{"startTime":326.129,"endTime":330.709,"body":"Are you going to use something quick"},{"startTime":326.129,"endTime":330.709,"body":"and dirty that is It visibly looks"},{"startTime":330.709,"endTime":334.419,"body":"different where it could be jarring as"},{"startTime":330.709,"endTime":334.419,"body":"an experience if you're not careful."},{"startTime":334.819,"endTime":338.619,"body":"But if it's that small that people"},{"startTime":334.819,"endTime":338.619,"body":"aren't going to see it and it falls"},{"startTime":338.619,"endTime":343.329,"body":"into the same UX themes that you've"},{"startTime":338.619,"endTime":343.329,"body":"used before, you could try it."},{"startTime":343.569,"endTime":347.959,"body":"So how I would like to proceed with"},{"startTime":343.569,"endTime":347.959,"body":"something like this given the choices,"},{"startTime":347.979,"endTime":350.899,"body":"not just do it and put it into"},{"startTime":347.979,"endTime":350.899,"body":"production, just do it in production."},{"startTime":351.419,"endTime":352.199,"body":"Do it quickly."},{"startTime":352.209,"endTime":355.059,"body":"You don't have to bother with all of"},{"startTime":352.209,"endTime":355.059,"body":"those things that you talked about,"},{"startTime":355.079,"endTime":357.889,"body":"you know, that cost money and time."},{"startTime":358.209,"endTime":359.659,"body":"But don't print production yet."},{"startTime":359.739,"endTime":361.799,"body":"Put it in a elevated environment."},{"startTime":361.859,"endTime":363.779,"body":"Let the customer see it."},{"startTime":363.929,"endTime":366.249,"body":"And if they like it, you can"},{"startTime":363.929,"endTime":366.249,"body":"promote it up to production."},{"startTime":366.279,"endTime":368.699,"body":"So that's kind of again,"},{"startTime":366.279,"endTime":368.699,"body":"reducing your risk a little bit."},{"startTime":369.179,"endTime":374.369,"body":"if that sliver is not so thin,"},{"startTime":369.179,"endTime":374.369,"body":"right, then, and this is very"},{"startTime":374.419,"endTime":375.839,"body":"kind of,  I guess, contextual."},{"startTime":376.149,"endTime":379.589,"body":"you got to think about that and"},{"startTime":376.149,"endTime":379.589,"body":"say, are we introducing risk?"},{"startTime":379.639,"endTime":381.659,"body":"Can we break something right?"},{"startTime":381.729,"endTime":382.779,"body":"That's already working."},{"startTime":382.779,"endTime":383.369,"body":"First of all."},{"startTime":383.739,"endTime":388.334,"body":"Secondly, is this something that"},{"startTime":383.739,"endTime":388.334,"body":"aligns with the rest of the product"},{"startTime":388.384,"endTime":389.924,"body":"and where we're trying to go with it."},{"startTime":390.304,"endTime":394.404,"body":"Are we trying to solve the"},{"startTime":390.304,"endTime":394.404,"body":"problem for one customer or is it?"},{"startTime":394.879,"endTime":396.969,"body":"Part and parcel of the"},{"startTime":394.879,"endTime":396.969,"body":"product itself, right?"},{"startTime":396.969,"endTime":401.319,"body":"So it's going to serve every customer"},{"startTime":396.969,"endTime":401.319,"body":"or is it select personas, etc."},{"startTime":401.389,"endTime":402.829,"body":"You got to figure that out, right?"},{"startTime":403.189,"endTime":406.479,"body":"I think there's still some time that"},{"startTime":403.189,"endTime":406.479,"body":"needs to be spent considering all of"},{"startTime":406.479,"endTime":409.639,"body":"these things before you say, yes, it's"},{"startTime":406.479,"endTime":409.639,"body":"just go build it because it's just going"},{"startTime":409.639,"endTime":411.289,"body":"to be two hours worth of work, let's say."},{"startTime":411.799,"endTime":415.289,"body":", so those are things that I, that"},{"startTime":411.799,"endTime":415.289,"body":"I immediately think about, , when"},{"startTime":415.299,"endTime":416.569,"body":"given this scenario, right?"},{"startTime":416.889,"endTime":418.989,"body":"And then, and then the other"},{"startTime":416.889,"endTime":418.989,"body":"thing I think about is."},{"startTime":419.974,"endTime":420.564,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":420.914,"endTime":422.864,"body":"What if something goes wrong here?"},{"startTime":423.054,"endTime":423.374,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":423.424,"endTime":425.194,"body":"How do we retract that out?"},{"startTime":425.244,"endTime":428.514,"body":"Now, if you're feature toggling, that's"},{"startTime":425.244,"endTime":428.514,"body":"easy but if you're just promoting"},{"startTime":428.544,"endTime":431.964,"body":"something into production, you've"},{"startTime":428.544,"endTime":431.964,"body":"now got to retract that and say,"},{"startTime":432.014,"endTime":435.824,"body":"we're going to take that back down"},{"startTime":432.014,"endTime":435.824,"body":"and go back to version n minus one."},{"startTime":436.394,"endTime":440.494,"body":"All of that is already costing you money"},{"startTime":436.394,"endTime":440.494,"body":"You would have been better spent doing the"},{"startTime":440.494,"endTime":442.964,"body":"due diligence in the first place, right?"},{"startTime":442.964,"endTime":445.394,"body":"So there's there's those"},{"startTime":442.964,"endTime":445.394,"body":"things to consider as well."},{"startTime":445.704,"endTime":450.174,"body":"And lastly, if it's taking more than"},{"startTime":445.704,"endTime":450.174,"body":"just a couple of hours, more than"},{"startTime":450.174,"endTime":451.944,"body":"a day, what's the opportunity cost?"},{"startTime":451.994,"endTime":453.614,"body":"What should you have been doing instead?"},{"startTime":454.014,"endTime":456.924,"body":"So those are considerations"},{"startTime":454.014,"endTime":456.924,"body":"that I think about right away."},{"startTime":456.984,"endTime":459.604,"body":"Uh, the opportunity cost is a great one."},{"startTime":459.624,"endTime":461.434,"body":"Like what, what else?"},{"startTime":461.484,"endTime":464.864,"body":"Well, because we're doing this,"},{"startTime":461.484,"endTime":464.864,"body":"what else are we not doing right?"},{"startTime":465.234,"endTime":465.504,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":465.504,"endTime":465.804,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":465.804,"endTime":466.094,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":466.094,"endTime":467.174,"body":"We can do fake door features."},{"startTime":467.254,"endTime":467.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":467.444,"endTime":468.094,"body":"We can do whatever."},{"startTime":468.094,"endTime":468.134,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":468.429,"endTime":471.669,"body":"And that gets a, like, if you're,"},{"startTime":468.429,"endTime":471.669,"body":"especially if you're B to C and you"},{"startTime":471.669,"endTime":474.529,"body":"really don't have direct access,"},{"startTime":471.669,"endTime":474.529,"body":"like you, maybe you have so many"},{"startTime":474.529,"endTime":478.269,"body":"customers that you, that direct access"},{"startTime":474.529,"endTime":478.269,"body":"to any one particular persona or"},{"startTime":478.269,"endTime":481.449,"body":"group of personas is not Feasible."},{"startTime":481.709,"endTime":482.029,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":482.129,"endTime":485.909,"body":"Even when I say it, it's not even really"},{"startTime":482.129,"endTime":485.909,"body":"fair because you, you still probably going"},{"startTime":485.909,"endTime":491.219,"body":"to have a select group of beta users or"},{"startTime":485.909,"endTime":491.219,"body":"power users or, you know, early adopters."},{"startTime":491.229,"endTime":491.459,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":491.459,"endTime":492.129,"body":"Early adopters."},{"startTime":492.129,"endTime":492.309,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":492.309,"endTime":493.109,"body":"Example users."},{"startTime":493.109,"endTime":495.862,"body":"You're going to know your early"},{"startTime":493.109,"endTime":495.862,"body":"users who are, who are really, you"},{"startTime":495.862,"endTime":497.544,"body":"know, You know, they're on top of it."},{"startTime":497.554,"endTime":499.824,"body":"They know when new features come"},{"startTime":497.554,"endTime":499.824,"body":"out, they're playing with them all."},{"startTime":499.864,"endTime":501.944,"body":"You know, they, they're giving"},{"startTime":499.864,"endTime":501.944,"body":"you feedback, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":502.464,"endTime":507.034,"body":"What I expected to become an issue"},{"startTime":502.464,"endTime":507.034,"body":"here is the lack of user validation."},{"startTime":507.784,"endTime":511.514,"body":"Of saying hey, why don't we just create"},{"startTime":507.784,"endTime":511.514,"body":"this new feature and throw it out there?"},{"startTime":511.794,"endTime":515.364,"body":"it's gonna take less time to To develop"},{"startTime":511.794,"endTime":515.364,"body":"it and throw it out there than it is for"},{"startTime":515.364,"endTime":519.114,"body":"us to talk about and agree on what we want"},{"startTime":515.364,"endTime":519.114,"body":"to do With different screen designs and"},{"startTime":519.294,"endTime":523.164,"body":"internal voting and whatever like I'll"},{"startTime":519.294,"endTime":523.164,"body":"just create something throw it out there"},{"startTime":523.434,"endTime":527.949,"body":"Yeah, but you haven't like then there's"},{"startTime":523.434,"endTime":527.949,"body":"no there's no consideration of your your"},{"startTime":530.289,"endTime":533.519,"body":"Yeah, this is why I say put it"},{"startTime":530.289,"endTime":533.519,"body":"into a stage or a UAT environment,"},{"startTime":533.719,"endTime":536.199,"body":"let them, you know, get their"},{"startTime":533.719,"endTime":536.199,"body":"hands on it, get some feedback."},{"startTime":536.209,"endTime":538.219,"body":"You may decide to say, okay, this is fine."},{"startTime":538.219,"endTime":539.669,"body":"We're going to go right"},{"startTime":538.219,"endTime":539.669,"body":"away into production."},{"startTime":539.869,"endTime":540.429,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":540.489,"endTime":541.879,"body":"That's the ideal case for you, right?"},{"startTime":542.199,"endTime":542.889,"body":"It's quick."},{"startTime":542.909,"endTime":544.009,"body":"And that's the straight line path."},{"startTime":544.029,"endTime":547.969,"body":"But you may, Just hear something"},{"startTime":544.029,"endTime":547.969,"body":"from the users that are beating"},{"startTime":547.969,"endTime":551.029,"body":"it up in the UAT environment that"},{"startTime":547.969,"endTime":551.029,"body":"says, Oh, that's not quite right."},{"startTime":551.259,"endTime":553.219,"body":"So at least you haven't risked"},{"startTime":551.259,"endTime":553.219,"body":"it playing production yet."},{"startTime":553.259,"endTime":555.339,"body":"Well, also it could be the"},{"startTime":553.259,"endTime":555.339,"body":"wrong problem that you solved."},{"startTime":555.409,"endTime":556.219,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":556.329,"endTime":556.749,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":556.839,"endTime":559.799,"body":"Like you, how are you going to,"},{"startTime":556.839,"endTime":559.799,"body":"without directly talking to users,"},{"startTime":560.289,"endTime":565.289,"body":"like sitting on a call, when users are"},{"startTime":560.289,"endTime":565.289,"body":"walking through it, like how else are"},{"startTime":565.289,"endTime":567.299,"body":"you going to get feedback like that?"},{"startTime":567.299,"endTime":570.499,"body":"Basically you've solved the wrong problem,"},{"startTime":567.299,"endTime":570.499,"body":"or you solved the problem at the wrong"},{"startTime":570.499,"endTime":572.149,"body":"stage, or the wrong step, or whatever."},{"startTime":572.149,"endTime":575.139,"body":"Like I think about mobile apps"},{"startTime":572.149,"endTime":575.139,"body":"specifically, Like, you solved,"},{"startTime":575.159,"endTime":579.729,"body":"like, yeah, maybe you've reduced"},{"startTime":575.159,"endTime":579.729,"body":"the pain, but what you did was"},{"startTime":579.739,"endTime":581.259,"body":"reducing pain in the wrong spot."},{"startTime":581.299,"endTime":585.119,"body":"Maybe the very painful spot is still"},{"startTime":581.299,"endTime":585.119,"body":"in a different spot, and you, like,"},{"startTime":585.129,"endTime":586.929,"body":"because you threw something out there."},{"startTime":587.709,"endTime":593.829,"body":"Yeah, I mean, okay, maybe you did resolve"},{"startTime":587.709,"endTime":593.829,"body":"some pain, but the more valuable fix."},{"startTime":594.154,"endTime":595.434,"body":"Was in a different area."},{"startTime":595.684,"endTime":595.864,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":595.864,"endTime":598.434,"body":"You may have solved it for"},{"startTime":595.864,"endTime":598.434,"body":"the wrong persona, even right."},{"startTime":598.434,"endTime":598.844,"body":"It can happen."},{"startTime":598.904,"endTime":599.474,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":599.584,"endTime":600.684,"body":"So depending on the product."},{"startTime":601.224,"endTime":605.594,"body":"So, yeah, I think it's easy to do a"},{"startTime":601.224,"endTime":605.594,"body":"snap decision and go, this is, it's"},{"startTime":605.604,"endTime":607.334,"body":"faster to do it than just talk about it."},{"startTime":607.334,"endTime":607.594,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":607.614,"endTime":610.124,"body":"But oftentimes there's"},{"startTime":607.614,"endTime":610.124,"body":"bigger repercussions."},{"startTime":610.154,"endTime":613.754,"body":"Are you building up technical"},{"startTime":610.154,"endTime":613.754,"body":"debt as a result of this decision?"},{"startTime":614.214,"endTime":615.544,"body":"I almost said hasty decision."},{"startTime":615.554,"endTime":617.854,"body":"Cause I want to say that"},{"startTime":615.554,"endTime":617.854,"body":"it is a hasty decision."},{"startTime":617.969,"endTime":621.429,"body":"At the end of the day, you're trying"},{"startTime":617.969,"endTime":621.429,"body":"to do something quickly, right?"},{"startTime":621.519,"endTime":624.389,"body":"And so go back all the way"},{"startTime":621.519,"endTime":624.389,"body":"to the beginning of that."},{"startTime":624.399,"endTime":626.519,"body":"Why are you trying to"},{"startTime":624.399,"endTime":626.519,"body":"do something so quickly?"},{"startTime":626.999,"endTime":630.639,"body":"Are you trying to leapfrog the competition"},{"startTime":626.999,"endTime":630.639,"body":"on this new thing that you think is going"},{"startTime":630.639,"endTime":632.699,"body":"to be so valuable for your customers?"},{"startTime":632.949,"endTime":633.289,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":633.629,"endTime":636.649,"body":"Why, why not go through"},{"startTime":633.629,"endTime":636.649,"body":"all of the due diligence?"},{"startTime":636.979,"endTime":640.979,"body":"I mean, I'm glad you brought that up"},{"startTime":636.979,"endTime":640.979,"body":"because I've been in a lot of companies."},{"startTime":641.459,"endTime":646.389,"body":"Where the development teams are not in the"},{"startTime":641.459,"endTime":646.389,"body":"mode of talking to customers, where they"},{"startTime":646.389,"endTime":653.279,"body":"get excited about a solution, or the sales"},{"startTime":646.389,"endTime":653.279,"body":"mainly leads the development efforts,"},{"startTime":653.729,"endTime":657.689,"body":"like prioritization and whatnot, and they"},{"startTime":653.729,"endTime":657.689,"body":"get excited about something, and that's"},{"startTime":657.689,"endTime":659.489,"body":"why they jump on a particular solution."},{"startTime":659.529,"endTime":663.849,"body":"Yeah, oftentimes I reduce that down to the"},{"startTime":659.529,"endTime":663.849,"body":"developer saying, Hey, I got a solution."},{"startTime":664.219,"endTime":665.279,"body":"Do you have a problem for that?"},{"startTime":665.959,"endTime":666.319,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":666.629,"endTime":671.069,"body":"So, yeah, I mean, that can, that can"},{"startTime":666.629,"endTime":671.069,"body":"spell a lot of trouble for you from"},{"startTime":671.069,"endTime":674.829,"body":"a product lens that you're going to"},{"startTime":671.069,"endTime":674.829,"body":"have a product that is not only, , not"},{"startTime":674.829,"endTime":678.609,"body":"fit for purpose in the end, like a"},{"startTime":674.829,"endTime":678.609,"body":"hundred percent, let's say, or 95"},{"startTime":678.609,"endTime":679.739,"body":"percent if you're happy with that."},{"startTime":680.514,"endTime":684.324,"body":"It's gonna go deviate, you know, it's"},{"startTime":680.514,"endTime":684.324,"body":"gonna deviate away from that because"},{"startTime":684.334,"endTime":688.124,"body":"developers are already solutioning"},{"startTime":684.334,"endTime":688.124,"body":"things that they think are needed"},{"startTime":688.244,"endTime":690.344,"body":"versus validating the need first."},{"startTime":690.514,"endTime":694.054,"body":"Another thing to bring up, , is"},{"startTime":690.514,"endTime":694.054,"body":"the different types of companies."},{"startTime":694.114,"endTime":698.044,"body":"Like, I wanted to do a, I wanted to do a"},{"startTime":694.114,"endTime":698.044,"body":"whole different podcast on the different"},{"startTime":698.054,"endTime":699.404,"body":"types of companies that are out there."},{"startTime":699.404,"endTime":704.014,"body":"They, they, there are visionary led"},{"startTime":699.404,"endTime":704.014,"body":"companies like the, the, everyone always"},{"startTime":704.024,"endTime":705.874,"body":"thinks of, , Apple under Steve Jobs."},{"startTime":705.874,"endTime":709.264,"body":"Like it's, everyone's basically"},{"startTime":705.874,"endTime":709.264,"body":"following his lead to what to build"},{"startTime":709.264,"endTime":710.814,"body":"next, the visionary led company."},{"startTime":711.134,"endTime":714.894,"body":"You have one particular founder"},{"startTime":711.134,"endTime":714.894,"body":"who's, who's a, who's a real visionary"},{"startTime":715.094,"endTime":716.644,"body":"who has a idea of the future."},{"startTime":716.644,"endTime":718.854,"body":"And everyone's kind of,"},{"startTime":716.644,"endTime":718.854,"body":"basically that's the source"},{"startTime":718.894,"endTime":719.814,"body":"where the ideas are coming from."},{"startTime":719.834,"endTime":725.094,"body":"from versus a company where the"},{"startTime":719.834,"endTime":725.094,"body":"ideas are coming from sales."},{"startTime":725.094,"endTime":728.814,"body":"Like what, what they're saying customers"},{"startTime":725.094,"endTime":728.814,"body":"need to sign deals and whatnot."},{"startTime":728.814,"endTime":731.734,"body":"So you're following sales, you're a"},{"startTime":728.814,"endTime":731.734,"body":"sales led company, you know, versus"},{"startTime":731.744,"endTime":735.134,"body":"a technology led company where  the"},{"startTime":731.744,"endTime":735.134,"body":"technology wing of the company is saying,"},{"startTime":735.344,"endTime":738.594,"body":"Hey, we discovered this new way of doing"},{"startTime":735.344,"endTime":738.594,"body":"whatever we're going to implement it."},{"startTime":738.604,"endTime":739.644,"body":"Isn't it cool."},{"startTime":740.034,"endTime":742.754,"body":"Now they're trying to engage"},{"startTime":740.034,"endTime":742.754,"body":"sales, marketing, whoever to say."},{"startTime":743.049,"endTime":745.659,"body":"Go drum up some customers"},{"startTime":743.049,"endTime":745.659,"body":"for this cool new thing Yeah."},{"startTime":745.659,"endTime":746.619,"body":"That we have available."},{"startTime":746.779,"endTime":748.399,"body":"The idea of the technology led."},{"startTime":748.399,"endTime":751.069,"body":"Like, we're gonna, we're gonna"},{"startTime":748.399,"endTime":751.069,"body":"build something cool and hope that"},{"startTime":751.074,"endTime":752.629,"body":"we can find some customers for it."},{"startTime":752.979,"endTime":754.599,"body":"That has its own set of troubles."},{"startTime":754.629,"endTime":754.809,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":754.989,"endTime":758.469,"body":"It's, I think we're gonna delve deeper"},{"startTime":754.989,"endTime":758.469,"body":"into it in that podcast, I find."},{"startTime":758.469,"endTime":760.749,"body":"I think that's gonna be good,"},{"startTime":758.469,"endTime":760.749,"body":"because I like that topic."},{"startTime":761.049,"endTime":761.289,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":761.379,"endTime":761.619,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":761.624,"endTime":765.309,"body":"It's, it's, it's also an interesting"},{"startTime":761.624,"endTime":765.309,"body":"one because, uh, the more I dig into the"},{"startTime":765.309,"endTime":771.764,"body":"Steve Jobs visionary myth,, the more, , I"},{"startTime":765.309,"endTime":771.764,"body":"realize that, , it's not true at all."},{"startTime":771.914,"endTime":772.124,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":772.274,"endTime":775.094,"body":"C Jobs had to be convinced"},{"startTime":772.274,"endTime":775.094,"body":"to build the iPhone."},{"startTime":775.124,"endTime":778.384,"body":"He, like, he was, he was resistant"},{"startTime":775.124,"endTime":778.384,"body":"to the idea of building the"},{"startTime":778.389,"endTime":779.314,"body":"iPhone in the first place."},{"startTime":779.314,"endTime":779.779,"body":"So was I found."},{"startTime":780.334,"endTime":783.254,"body":", really, really, really interesting"},{"startTime":780.334,"endTime":783.254,"body":"blog about that a while back and"},{"startTime":783.264,"endTime":784.594,"body":"I wanted to have a podcast on it."},{"startTime":784.604,"endTime":785.584,"body":"We never have yet."},{"startTime":785.954,"endTime":790.054,"body":"Yeah, there's visionary like companies"},{"startTime":785.954,"endTime":790.054,"body":"that people think about like Apple on"},{"startTime":790.054,"endTime":794.894,"body":"the jobs, but also now these days, , Elon"},{"startTime":790.054,"endTime":794.894,"body":"Musk as well, right, as a visionary."},{"startTime":795.274,"endTime":799.414,"body":", and, and, and to a lesser degree,"},{"startTime":795.274,"endTime":799.414,"body":"perhaps Richard Branson is when he"},{"startTime":799.414,"endTime":802.674,"body":"came out with, you know, originally, I"},{"startTime":799.414,"endTime":802.674,"body":"guess it was the record company, right?"},{"startTime":803.034,"endTime":807.964,"body":"Uh, I'm sure he didn't think about, uh,"},{"startTime":803.034,"endTime":807.964,"body":"owning an airline at that point, right?"},{"startTime":808.054,"endTime":811.254,"body":"But anyway, so yeah, that, that we're"},{"startTime":808.054,"endTime":811.254,"body":"going to save that for later podcast."},{"startTime":811.374,"endTime":812.164,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":812.834,"endTime":814.034,"body":"But the, the idea is."},{"startTime":815.034,"endTime":818.204,"body":"Like the, the kind of through line"},{"startTime":815.034,"endTime":818.204,"body":"that we were talking about is, , that"},{"startTime":818.214,"endTime":820.554,"body":"it would save you costs to do this."},{"startTime":820.884,"endTime":827.124,"body":"But the reality is it ends up increasing"},{"startTime":820.884,"endTime":827.124,"body":"development costs to go up, uh, by"},{"startTime":827.134,"endTime":829.784,"body":"building everything that you're trying"},{"startTime":827.134,"endTime":829.784,"body":"to prototype, building everything"},{"startTime":829.784,"endTime":833.864,"body":"in the final application basically,"},{"startTime":829.784,"endTime":833.864,"body":"and, and, and sending it out because"},{"startTime":833.874,"endTime":839.274,"body":"you end up, you end up getting,"},{"startTime":833.874,"endTime":839.274,"body":"feedback, which leads to rework."},{"startTime":839.944,"endTime":844.044,"body":"Again, assuming you don't have any"},{"startTime":839.944,"endTime":844.044,"body":"architectural challenges or technical"},{"startTime":844.044,"endTime":847.254,"body":"debt or anything, assuming none of"},{"startTime":844.044,"endTime":847.254,"body":"that, , you end up every time that you get"},{"startTime":847.254,"endTime":848.874,"body":"feedback, you need to change something."},{"startTime":849.104,"endTime":853.164,"body":"You end up having to go back into"},{"startTime":849.104,"endTime":853.164,"body":"your application and change things"},{"startTime":853.164,"endTime":857.474,"body":"that like the development team thinks"},{"startTime":853.164,"endTime":857.474,"body":"is minor or, you know, maybe not"},{"startTime":857.474,"endTime":861.184,"body":"minor or whatever, maybe because the"},{"startTime":857.474,"endTime":861.184,"body":"way it's implemented, it's major to"},{"startTime":861.184,"endTime":863.504,"body":"change, you know, small, tiny things."},{"startTime":863.914,"endTime":867.309,"body":"But now that you've implemented it"},{"startTime":863.914,"endTime":867.309,"body":"one way, You have to come back and"},{"startTime":867.309,"endTime":870.799,"body":"refactor every time you want to"},{"startTime":867.309,"endTime":870.799,"body":"change it for customer feedback."},{"startTime":871.229,"endTime":871.989,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":871.989,"endTime":875.029,"body":"And all of that feeds into"},{"startTime":871.989,"endTime":875.029,"body":"that other topic, like of,"},{"startTime":875.069,"endTime":876.119,"body":"you know, opportunity costs."},{"startTime":876.179,"endTime":880.079,"body":"You now incurred all this cost"},{"startTime":876.179,"endTime":880.079,"body":"because you wanted to cut corners"},{"startTime":880.079,"endTime":881.339,"body":"in the first place, right?"},{"startTime":881.979,"endTime":886.349,"body":"Um, I think there's probably"},{"startTime":881.979,"endTime":886.349,"body":"somewhere, almost a middle ground,"},{"startTime":886.349,"endTime":887.529,"body":"but maybe not even middle ground."},{"startTime":887.829,"endTime":893.544,"body":"Um, engage your customer first before,"},{"startTime":887.829,"endTime":893.544,"body":"You put this thing in anywhere, right?"},{"startTime":893.544,"endTime":895.464,"body":"And just say, well think about doing this."},{"startTime":895.674,"endTime":895.854,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":896.094,"endTime":897.474,"body":", does that have value for you?"},{"startTime":898.464,"endTime":901.614,"body":"Well, you, you've just kicked us all the"},{"startTime":898.464,"endTime":901.614,"body":"way back to the user validation step."},{"startTime":901.614,"endTime":903.924,"body":"Like if you're the old business"},{"startTime":901.614,"endTime":903.924,"body":"analysis, well, at least, at least"},{"startTime":903.924,"endTime":905.904,"body":"the, the need validation upfront."},{"startTime":905.909,"endTime":908.604,"body":"The need validation, and then on"},{"startTime":905.909,"endTime":908.604,"body":"the functional validation later,"},{"startTime":908.604,"endTime":911.544,"body":"that's, that's the old business"},{"startTime":908.604,"endTime":911.544,"body":"analysis, like the, the, the dirty"},{"startTime":911.544,"endTime":913.344,"body":"tricks of the ba, like the hey."},{"startTime":913.729,"endTime":918.539,"body":"If we did X, would it solve your issue?"},{"startTime":918.639,"endTime":921.369,"body":"Would it, would it solve the problem that"},{"startTime":918.639,"endTime":921.369,"body":"you're, that you're seeking to solve?"},{"startTime":921.679,"endTime":924.469,"body":"And then if we did Y on top of"},{"startTime":921.679,"endTime":924.469,"body":"that, would it, would it further"},{"startTime":924.749,"endTime":925.969,"body":"make you happy with the solution?"},{"startTime":925.969,"endTime":931.309,"body":"If then, then if we did Zed, Hey, if we"},{"startTime":925.969,"endTime":931.309,"body":"did X and Y and Zed all together in the"},{"startTime":931.309,"endTime":934.449,"body":"application, would that be something"},{"startTime":931.309,"endTime":934.449,"body":"that you would be willing to pay for?"},{"startTime":934.669,"endTime":938.059,"body":"And then like they, they led the"},{"startTime":934.669,"endTime":938.059,"body":"customer along all that stuff happens."},{"startTime":938.519,"endTime":942.589,"body":"When zero, uh, software has been"},{"startTime":938.519,"endTime":942.589,"body":"written at all, but if you're saying,"},{"startTime":942.589,"endTime":945.179,"body":"well, I mean, I can just code something"},{"startTime":942.589,"endTime":945.179,"body":"and throw it out to the customer,"},{"startTime":945.789,"endTime":949.289,"body":"you know, um, I mean, I guess if you"},{"startTime":945.789,"endTime":949.289,"body":"have a whole development staff, just"},{"startTime":949.289,"endTime":953.239,"body":"sitting around, not doing anything"},{"startTime":949.289,"endTime":953.239,"body":"that you have the money to just"},{"startTime":953.239,"endTime":956.709,"body":"throw out active prototypes, right?"},{"startTime":956.779,"endTime":957.889,"body":"I mean, I guess that's great."},{"startTime":958.199,"endTime":960.219,"body":"I just don't know a lot of"},{"startTime":958.199,"endTime":960.219,"body":"companies that have that access."},{"startTime":960.859,"endTime":961.269,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":961.389,"endTime":965.849,"body":"Um, if you, if you have that luxury"},{"startTime":961.389,"endTime":965.849,"body":"to do user validation in live code."},{"startTime":966.104,"endTime":968.204,"body":"User validation in live code."},{"startTime":968.234,"endTime":969.844,"body":"It's risky at best, right?"},{"startTime":969.884,"endTime":972.634,"body":"I mean, so if you had a lot of"},{"startTime":969.884,"endTime":972.634,"body":"developers sitting around doing"},{"startTime":972.634,"endTime":976.214,"body":"nothing, why not have them create"},{"startTime":972.634,"endTime":976.214,"body":"three different scenarios, right?"},{"startTime":976.474,"endTime":979.794,"body":"And, and put all of that in production"},{"startTime":976.474,"endTime":979.794,"body":"and have the customer test on all of them."},{"startTime":979.854,"endTime":983.674,"body":"You're basically doing customer validation"},{"startTime":979.854,"endTime":983.674,"body":"or user validation in production."},{"startTime":984.199,"endTime":986.019,"body":"Which is a risky proposition."},{"startTime":986.069,"endTime":989.569,"body":"Right, assume you're"},{"startTime":986.069,"endTime":989.569,"body":"pre product market fit."},{"startTime":990.069,"endTime":993.169,"body":"You're not sure that you know what"},{"startTime":990.069,"endTime":993.169,"body":"these customers problems really are."},{"startTime":993.579,"endTime":995.349,"body":"So you're taking shots in the dark."},{"startTime":995.359,"endTime":996.909,"body":"What would resolve their problems?"},{"startTime":997.299,"endTime":999.959,"body":"So rather than mock it up, you're"},{"startTime":997.299,"endTime":999.959,"body":"just going to build real life software"},{"startTime":1000.049,"endTime":1001.649,"body":"to, to, to deal with their problems."},{"startTime":1001.929,"endTime":1005.269,"body":"Like, I mean, will, will users actually"},{"startTime":1001.929,"endTime":1005.269,"body":"know that real life software is"},{"startTime":1005.269,"endTime":1007.929,"body":"different than a mock up with fake data?"},{"startTime":1007.959,"endTime":1009.039,"body":"Will they really know that?"},{"startTime":1009.069,"endTime":1012.719,"body":"I like, I don't know, but what I'm"},{"startTime":1009.069,"endTime":1012.719,"body":"saying is you're validating ideas."},{"startTime":1013.039,"endTime":1015.599,"body":"The, the, the four Marty"},{"startTime":1013.039,"endTime":1015.599,"body":"Kagan,, categories."},{"startTime":1015.599,"endTime":1016.709,"body":", is it valuable?"},{"startTime":1016.729,"endTime":1018.969,"body":"Meaning what do our customers find value?"},{"startTime":1018.969,"endTime":1019.749,"body":"Will they use it?"},{"startTime":1020.009,"endTime":1021.219,"body":"Is it usable?"},{"startTime":1021.309,"endTime":1023.729,"body":"Uh, can our, can our customers"},{"startTime":1021.309,"endTime":1023.729,"body":"figure out how to use it?"},{"startTime":1023.959,"endTime":1024.919,"body":"Is it feasible?"},{"startTime":1024.939,"endTime":1027.649,"body":"Can, can we actually develop"},{"startTime":1024.939,"endTime":1027.649,"body":"it with our technology and"},{"startTime":1027.649,"endTime":1028.689,"body":"developers that we have in house?"},{"startTime":1029.009,"endTime":1031.359,"body":"And, and is it viable?"},{"startTime":1031.369,"endTime":1033.469,"body":"Does it actually work for our"},{"startTime":1031.369,"endTime":1033.469,"body":"business model and how we're going"},{"startTime":1033.469,"endTime":1034.529,"body":"to sell it and that kind of stuff?"},{"startTime":1034.849,"endTime":1036.349,"body":"If you can zip through those four things."},{"startTime":1037.239,"endTime":1040.409,"body":"And validate every single"},{"startTime":1037.239,"endTime":1040.409,"body":"one with your customers."},{"startTime":1041.409,"endTime":1041.789,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":1041.919,"endTime":1044.879,"body":"But like, how are you going to just"},{"startTime":1041.919,"endTime":1044.879,"body":"build something that validates all"},{"startTime":1044.879,"endTime":1046.809,"body":"four of those things right away?"},{"startTime":1046.819,"endTime":1048.919,"body":"I mean, you're taking on"},{"startTime":1046.819,"endTime":1048.919,"body":"a lot of responsibility"},{"startTime":1049.069,"endTime":1050.269,"body":"through the development team."},{"startTime":1051.039,"endTime":1053.449,"body":"I mean, those four things"},{"startTime":1051.039,"endTime":1053.449,"body":"are like barely related."},{"startTime":1053.469,"endTime":1053.979,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1054.039,"endTime":1055.369,"body":"You said responsibility."},{"startTime":1055.419,"endTime":1056.649,"body":"I was going to use a different R word."},{"startTime":1056.679,"endTime":1058.519,"body":"You're taking a lot of risk at that point."},{"startTime":1058.529,"endTime":1062.209,"body":"You're basically saying, I'm going to put"},{"startTime":1058.529,"endTime":1062.209,"body":"all this, my, my stack of chips on double"},{"startTime":1062.209,"endTime":1063.789,"body":"zero right here on the roulette table."},{"startTime":1064.109,"endTime":1068.174,"body":"And, uh, yeah, maybe, maybe once in"},{"startTime":1064.109,"endTime":1068.174,"body":"a while, you know, Maybe that, that"},{"startTime":1068.174,"endTime":1072.424,"body":"little ball falls in the double zero,"},{"startTime":1068.174,"endTime":1072.424,"body":"but hey, that is a small chance."},{"startTime":1072.464,"endTime":1072.714,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1073.284,"endTime":1076.214,"body":"Even in the Marty Kagan"},{"startTime":1073.284,"endTime":1076.214,"body":"categories, he splits those up."},{"startTime":1076.214,"endTime":1080.874,"body":"I mean, the, the, the, the usability"},{"startTime":1076.214,"endTime":1080.874,"body":"goes to the UI UX designer."},{"startTime":1080.874,"endTime":1083.274,"body":"The, the value goes to the product person."},{"startTime":1083.554,"endTime":1086.034,"body":"The feasibility goes to"},{"startTime":1083.554,"endTime":1086.034,"body":"the tech leader, the devs."},{"startTime":1086.574,"endTime":1088.234,"body":"He splits those up to the whole team."},{"startTime":1088.494,"endTime":1091.554,"body":"So  you're basically saying, I"},{"startTime":1088.494,"endTime":1091.554,"body":"don't need to split those up."},{"startTime":1092.104,"endTime":1095.914,"body":"I'm gonna just code them"},{"startTime":1092.104,"endTime":1095.914,"body":"straight out in the application."},{"startTime":1096.154,"endTime":1100.454,"body":"Uh, like, I guess it's, if our company"},{"startTime":1096.154,"endTime":1100.454,"body":"was like, uh, the Brian and Ohm Software"},{"startTime":1100.454,"endTime":1103.674,"body":"Development Company 3, because remember"},{"startTime":1100.454,"endTime":1103.674,"body":"we sold our first and second companies."},{"startTime":1103.974,"endTime":1105.864,"body":"Yeah, I sold the yachts afterwards."},{"startTime":1105.864,"endTime":1108.264,"body":"Yeah, the yachts also got sold"},{"startTime":1105.864,"endTime":1108.264,"body":"because apparently we have"},{"startTime":1108.264,"endTime":1109.574,"body":"problems, financial problems."},{"startTime":1109.944,"endTime":1112.534,"body":"Anyway, I don't know what there"},{"startTime":1109.944,"endTime":1112.534,"body":"may or may not have been an"},{"startTime":1112.554,"endTime":1114.694,"body":"edit here, a hard edit here."},{"startTime":1115.034,"endTime":1120.534,"body":"Uh, we were discussing, uh, country"},{"startTime":1115.034,"endTime":1120.534,"body":"music, uh, circa five years ago."},{"startTime":1120.684,"endTime":1123.754,"body":"But the, the lack of user"},{"startTime":1120.684,"endTime":1123.754,"body":"validation, that's what we're on."},{"startTime":1123.764,"endTime":1124.914,"body":"Lack of user validation."},{"startTime":1124.914,"endTime":1128.404,"body":"Like, I mean, I guess, I guess if"},{"startTime":1124.914,"endTime":1128.404,"body":"you're going back to our podcast"},{"startTime":1128.404,"endTime":1134.064,"body":"that we did with Alex talking about,"},{"startTime":1128.404,"endTime":1134.064,"body":"um, your intuition versus evidence."},{"startTime":1134.214,"endTime":1136.244,"body":"Like when you're building"},{"startTime":1134.214,"endTime":1136.244,"body":"something brand new."},{"startTime":1137.894,"endTime":1139.894,"body":"You need intuition to guide you."},{"startTime":1140.064,"endTime":1140.464,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1141.214,"endTime":1145.284,"body":"But then As you build"},{"startTime":1141.214,"endTime":1145.284,"body":"things, you need evidence."},{"startTime":1145.474,"endTime":1148.064,"body":"You need to be evidence based."},{"startTime":1148.234,"endTime":1149.184,"body":"You need validation."},{"startTime":1149.214,"endTime":1150.204,"body":"Need validation."},{"startTime":1150.204,"endTime":1150.484,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1150.534,"endTime":1150.764,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1150.764,"endTime":1155.714,"body":"So like skip this step, I guess what I'm"},{"startTime":1150.764,"endTime":1155.714,"body":"saying is skip this step at your own risk."},{"startTime":1157.004,"endTime":1159.774,"body":"Definitely, definitely skip it at"},{"startTime":1157.004,"endTime":1159.774,"body":"your peril because you don't know"},{"startTime":1159.774,"endTime":1163.434,"body":"how it's going to land, especially if"},{"startTime":1159.774,"endTime":1163.434,"body":"your product is such where you have."},{"startTime":1163.899,"endTime":1165.939,"body":"People that use it in different ways."},{"startTime":1165.979,"endTime":1167.869,"body":"It's not like just the one thing, right?"},{"startTime":1168.209,"endTime":1172.339,"body":"If you're going to circumvent"},{"startTime":1168.209,"endTime":1172.339,"body":"the validation piece, you're"},{"startTime":1172.349,"endTime":1174.149,"body":"essentially just gambling."},{"startTime":1174.594,"endTime":1180.084,"body":"Yeah, so so skip those steps at"},{"startTime":1174.594,"endTime":1180.084,"body":"your peril because nothing much"},{"startTime":1180.104,"endTime":1181.804,"body":"good can happen out of that."},{"startTime":1181.804,"endTime":1185.534,"body":"What about the scenario where,"},{"startTime":1181.804,"endTime":1185.534,"body":", maybe you work with your largest"},{"startTime":1185.604,"endTime":1188.154,"body":"customer or representation thereof."},{"startTime":1188.494,"endTime":1189.774,"body":", bring them in and,"},{"startTime":1192.524,"endTime":1196.689,"body":", bring them into your organization"},{"startTime":1192.524,"endTime":1196.689,"body":"and co develop something with them."},{"startTime":1196.959,"endTime":1201.659,"body":"Pretty quickly, and still I'm falling"},{"startTime":1196.959,"endTime":1201.659,"body":"short of this idea of putting into"},{"startTime":1201.659,"endTime":1208.329,"body":"production, even if it's for them, like"},{"startTime":1201.659,"endTime":1208.329,"body":"let them kick the tires in a sandbox,"},{"startTime":1208.389,"endTime":1211.049,"body":"maybe like a U A T type of environment."},{"startTime":1211.989,"endTime":1214.739,"body":"When you hear good signals, you"},{"startTime":1211.989,"endTime":1214.739,"body":"can then promote that up to,"},{"startTime":1214.819,"endTime":1216.329,"body":"you know, up up to production."},{"startTime":1216.589,"endTime":1218.769,"body":"Otherwise you're taking a huge risk."},{"startTime":1218.949,"endTime":1219.479,"body":"I feel"},{"startTime":1220.089,"endTime":1224.479,"body":"I want to pivot , missing"},{"startTime":1220.089,"endTime":1224.479,"body":"opportunities for course correction."},{"startTime":1225.309,"endTime":1227.439,"body":"Because I feel that when you're,"},{"startTime":1225.309,"endTime":1227.439,"body":"when you're saying, well, I"},{"startTime":1227.439,"endTime":1231.419,"body":"don't need to do a prototyping"},{"startTime":1227.439,"endTime":1231.419,"body":"or I don't need to do discovery."},{"startTime":1231.979,"endTime":1233.329,"body":"Why do you discovery work?"},{"startTime":1233.709,"endTime":1235.879,"body":"Like I'll just build it"},{"startTime":1233.709,"endTime":1235.879,"body":"in live in production."},{"startTime":1236.299,"endTime":1236.589,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1236.589,"endTime":1240.849,"body":"Maybe, but also like what happens"},{"startTime":1236.589,"endTime":1240.849,"body":"when you're very close to the mark,"},{"startTime":1242.079,"endTime":1243.879,"body":"but not quite at the mark, right?"},{"startTime":1244.709,"endTime":1249.219,"body":"If you're doing wireframes, you're doing"},{"startTime":1244.709,"endTime":1249.219,"body":"clickable prototypes, for example, and"},{"startTime":1249.219,"endTime":1252.919,"body":"you're sharing those, a customer tells you"},{"startTime":1249.219,"endTime":1252.919,"body":"something like you can, like, if you have"},{"startTime":1252.969,"endTime":1258.599,"body":"a UI UX designer, that's really on point"},{"startTime":1252.969,"endTime":1258.599,"body":"on right there on the call, they can make"},{"startTime":1258.599,"endTime":1262.079,"body":"some changes, roll it out while you're"},{"startTime":1258.599,"endTime":1262.079,"body":"kind of discussing the back and forth."},{"startTime":1262.824,"endTime":1266.554,"body":"And fire away, and they can say, yes,"},{"startTime":1262.824,"endTime":1266.554,"body":"that's exactly what I'm thinking about."},{"startTime":1267.084,"endTime":1269.084,"body":"You know, they can tell you"},{"startTime":1267.084,"endTime":1269.084,"body":"right there on the spot."},{"startTime":1269.634,"endTime":1272.524,"body":"Yeah, and that's the best way"},{"startTime":1269.634,"endTime":1272.524,"body":"and the most efficient way"},{"startTime":1272.524,"endTime":1273.944,"body":"of reducing the delta, right?"},{"startTime":1274.094,"endTime":1274.244,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1274.404,"endTime":1275.694,"body":"So, I agree with that."},{"startTime":1275.694,"endTime":1278.554,"body":"I think if you're not really"},{"startTime":1275.694,"endTime":1278.554,"body":"doing that due diligence,"},{"startTime":1278.554,"endTime":1280.134,"body":"you're missing that opportunity."},{"startTime":1280.364,"endTime":1284.094,"body":"To, um, you know, like it says,"},{"startTime":1280.364,"endTime":1284.094,"body":"course correct, basically."},{"startTime":1284.434,"endTime":1288.654,"body":"Um, you're assuming, A direction"},{"startTime":1284.434,"endTime":1288.654,"body":"is the right direction, right?"},{"startTime":1288.774,"endTime":1292.384,"body":"And you're then not only putting"},{"startTime":1288.774,"endTime":1292.384,"body":"in production, you're almost"},{"startTime":1292.414,"endTime":1296.714,"body":"inflicting on the user, you know,"},{"startTime":1292.414,"endTime":1296.714,"body":"that that specific direction, right?"},{"startTime":1297.024,"endTime":1301.234,"body":"And when you hear back, inevitably,"},{"startTime":1297.024,"endTime":1301.234,"body":"I find that that's not quite right."},{"startTime":1301.334,"endTime":1303.844,"body":"You may be close, but"},{"startTime":1301.334,"endTime":1303.844,"body":"it's not quite right."},{"startTime":1303.884,"endTime":1304.454,"body":"Now you got to."},{"startTime":1304.729,"endTime":1307.819,"body":"Come back and do it, but it's"},{"startTime":1304.729,"endTime":1307.819,"body":"already in production now."},{"startTime":1307.829,"endTime":1311.309,"body":"Assuming you can immediately"},{"startTime":1307.829,"endTime":1311.309,"body":"come back to it, many, many, many"},{"startTime":1311.309,"endTime":1312.949,"body":"different programs I've worked on."},{"startTime":1313.149,"endTime":1317.009,"body":"We support many different types"},{"startTime":1313.149,"endTime":1317.009,"body":"of personas and say, Hey, we're"},{"startTime":1317.009,"endTime":1320.429,"body":"trying to do something in this"},{"startTime":1317.009,"endTime":1320.429,"body":"sprint for this particular user."},{"startTime":1321.119,"endTime":1326.364,"body":"And we did something and that we demo it"},{"startTime":1321.119,"endTime":1326.364,"body":"to them and say, Hey, And the user says,"},{"startTime":1326.514,"endTime":1329.534,"body":"well, this is close to what we need,"},{"startTime":1326.514,"endTime":1329.534,"body":"but if you really did this one other"},{"startTime":1329.534,"endTime":1331.014,"body":"thing, it would really make us happy."},{"startTime":1331.634,"endTime":1336.304,"body":"But we have commitments in the next"},{"startTime":1331.634,"endTime":1336.304,"body":"couple of weeks to say, well, we,"},{"startTime":1336.304,"endTime":1340.044,"body":"we won't be able to get back to this"},{"startTime":1336.304,"endTime":1340.044,"body":"feature for, you know, a sprint or"},{"startTime":1340.044,"endTime":1343.074,"body":"two or, or likely like three, right?"},{"startTime":1343.084,"endTime":1344.094,"body":"Like six weeks out."},{"startTime":1344.174,"endTime":1344.514,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1344.564,"endTime":1348.604,"body":", because we have so much of this stuff"},{"startTime":1344.564,"endTime":1348.604,"body":"stacked up for other users that we've"},{"startTime":1348.604,"endTime":1351.434,"body":"committed to or promised to, or maybe"},{"startTime":1348.604,"endTime":1351.434,"body":"we're doing, you know, maybe we were"},{"startTime":1351.434,"endTime":1355.254,"body":"doing a juggling act cause it's sales"},{"startTime":1351.434,"endTime":1355.254,"body":"renewal season or something like that."},{"startTime":1355.624,"endTime":1361.424,"body":"Yes, we built something and we've, and we"},{"startTime":1355.624,"endTime":1361.424,"body":"got it out to them quickly, but the risk"},{"startTime":1361.424,"endTime":1367.114,"body":"is if we don't exactly hit the mark and"},{"startTime":1361.424,"endTime":1367.114,"body":"they want small tweaks, like the, the,"},{"startTime":1367.204,"endTime":1372.234,"body":"the, the, the, the lighter feature in the"},{"startTime":1367.204,"endTime":1372.234,"body":"Kano model of like this very small tweak,"},{"startTime":1372.234,"endTime":1374.614,"body":"we could have given them very quickly."},{"startTime":1374.974,"endTime":1375.884,"body":"We can't do that now."},{"startTime":1375.884,"endTime":1379.064,"body":"Cause we got all this other stuff"},{"startTime":1375.884,"endTime":1379.064,"body":"stacked up for all these other personas."},{"startTime":1379.064,"endTime":1380.734,"body":"That's every development"},{"startTime":1379.064,"endTime":1380.734,"body":"team I've ever been on."},{"startTime":1381.154,"endTime":1383.894,"body":"We know we can't get to"},{"startTime":1381.154,"endTime":1383.894,"body":"the, to all the work."},{"startTime":1384.364,"endTime":1387.084,"body":"So we just have to prioritize"},{"startTime":1384.364,"endTime":1387.084,"body":"what we're trying to get to."},{"startTime":1387.084,"endTime":1389.414,"body":"And that's like where the"},{"startTime":1387.084,"endTime":1389.414,"body":"product management function makes"},{"startTime":1389.414,"endTime":1392.324,"body":"all its money because there's"},{"startTime":1389.414,"endTime":1392.324,"body":"so much work we want to do."},{"startTime":1392.934,"endTime":1398.214,"body":"I can't even imagine the, an environment"},{"startTime":1392.934,"endTime":1398.214,"body":"where you can, you can get to everything"},{"startTime":1398.214,"endTime":1399.174,"body":"where you don't need to do this."},{"startTime":1399.264,"endTime":1399.774,"body":"It's rare."},{"startTime":1399.774,"endTime":1402.594,"body":"I I don't, I've seen"},{"startTime":1399.774,"endTime":1402.594,"body":"none of that in my past."},{"startTime":1402.594,"endTime":1402.834,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1402.834,"endTime":1407.004,"body":"So to your point, so that"},{"startTime":1402.834,"endTime":1407.004,"body":"delayed delighter is no delighter"},{"startTime":1407.034,"endTime":1410.184,"body":"because now No way the customer"},{"startTime":1407.034,"endTime":1410.184,"body":"experience is already out there."},{"startTime":1410.184,"endTime":1410.244,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1410.244,"endTime":1411.324,"body":"And it's not ideal."},{"startTime":1411.354,"endTime":1411.534,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1411.534,"endTime":1411.804,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1411.804,"endTime":1412.369,"body":"You didn't nail it."},{"startTime":1412.724,"endTime":1412.954,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1412.994,"endTime":1415.594,"body":"You might be in the same zip"},{"startTime":1412.994,"endTime":1415.594,"body":"code, but you didn't nail it."},{"startTime":1416.164,"endTime":1420.364,"body":"And consequently, you basically"},{"startTime":1416.164,"endTime":1420.364,"body":"all of this comes down to kind"},{"startTime":1420.364,"endTime":1422.244,"body":"of like the reputation, right?"},{"startTime":1422.724,"endTime":1425.514,"body":"You're not really making me"},{"startTime":1422.724,"endTime":1425.514,"body":"happy by putting this in product."},{"startTime":1425.584,"endTime":1428.394,"body":"By the way, you didn't get any"},{"startTime":1425.584,"endTime":1428.394,"body":"feedback from me to begin with."},{"startTime":1428.594,"endTime":1429.544,"body":"I could have told you."},{"startTime":1429.954,"endTime":1431.064,"body":"It's customer's voice, right?"},{"startTime":1431.394,"endTime":1432.654,"body":"So yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":1433.274,"endTime":1437.914,"body":"It's several days, weeks later that"},{"startTime":1433.274,"endTime":1437.914,"body":"you can actually make the correction."},{"startTime":1438.344,"endTime":1439.484,"body":"Think about that, right?"},{"startTime":1439.524,"endTime":1442.984,"body":"Because a lot of this comes"},{"startTime":1439.524,"endTime":1442.984,"body":"back to you after the fact."},{"startTime":1442.984,"endTime":1445.164,"body":"It's in production now and you're running."},{"startTime":1445.214,"endTime":1448.364,"body":"It's in production, but you've"},{"startTime":1445.214,"endTime":1448.364,"body":"you now introduce an additional"},{"startTime":1448.364,"endTime":1453.314,"body":"layer of user frustration or extra"},{"startTime":1448.364,"endTime":1453.314,"body":"steps that user has to go through."},{"startTime":1453.544,"endTime":1456.984,"body":"The other way this manifests"},{"startTime":1453.544,"endTime":1456.984,"body":"that I have seen as a product"},{"startTime":1456.984,"endTime":1461.654,"body":"manager, it, it manifests in low"},{"startTime":1456.984,"endTime":1461.654,"body":"adoption of your new features."},{"startTime":1461.984,"endTime":1465.374,"body":"So you'll say, Oh, we, we, we did this"},{"startTime":1461.984,"endTime":1465.374,"body":"thing that everyone said they wanted."},{"startTime":1465.649,"endTime":1466.949,"body":"But no one's using it."},{"startTime":1467.599,"endTime":1472.019,"body":"You should have known before you"},{"startTime":1467.599,"endTime":1472.019,"body":"launched it, pre coded it,  that"},{"startTime":1472.029,"endTime":1473.419,"body":"no one was going to use it."},{"startTime":1473.419,"endTime":1475.109,"body":"You should have gone down that road."},{"startTime":1475.109,"endTime":1475.779,"body":"You should have."},{"startTime":1476.059,"endTime":1479.639,"body":"I guess what I'm saying is your"},{"startTime":1476.059,"endTime":1479.639,"body":"leadership is going to perceive it as."},{"startTime":1479.979,"endTime":1484.079,"body":"Why did you launch a feature"},{"startTime":1479.979,"endTime":1484.079,"body":"that no one is using?"},{"startTime":1484.279,"endTime":1486.209,"body":"How did you not know that"},{"startTime":1484.279,"endTime":1486.209,"body":"before you launched it?"},{"startTime":1486.209,"endTime":1492.649,"body":"And that question, it sounds very"},{"startTime":1486.209,"endTime":1492.649,"body":"challenging, but if we peel it back to,"},{"startTime":1492.759,"endTime":1497.319,"body":"to, to trying to be a hopeful question"},{"startTime":1492.759,"endTime":1497.319,"body":"it is the right question to ask."},{"startTime":1497.704,"endTime":1499.844,"body":"Yeah, it usually comes back that way."},{"startTime":1499.844,"endTime":1500.254,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":1500.804,"endTime":1505.544,"body":"So if you rush this thing into production,"},{"startTime":1500.804,"endTime":1505.544,"body":"you likely did not put in telemetry in"},{"startTime":1505.544,"endTime":1508.534,"body":"place to see how the user is using it."},{"startTime":1508.684,"endTime":1509.654,"body":"Are they using it?"},{"startTime":1509.704,"endTime":1510.644,"body":"Are they struggling?"},{"startTime":1510.704,"endTime":1511.584,"body":"Are they happy?"},{"startTime":1511.784,"endTime":1512.644,"body":"Are they content?"},{"startTime":1512.674,"endTime":1513.654,"body":"Are they delighted?"},{"startTime":1513.794,"endTime":1515.754,"body":"You don't know any of that"},{"startTime":1513.794,"endTime":1515.754,"body":"because you didn't put it in."},{"startTime":1515.754,"endTime":1516.914,"body":"You just rushed it, right?"},{"startTime":1517.304,"endTime":1519.424,"body":"So yeah, nothing good"},{"startTime":1517.304,"endTime":1519.424,"body":"can come out of that."},{"startTime":1519.464,"endTime":1524.564,"body":"I don't think unless again, you"},{"startTime":1519.464,"endTime":1524.564,"body":"happen to be so lucky that you know"},{"startTime":1524.564,"endTime":1527.809,"body":"that little white ball landed in the"},{"startTime":1524.564,"endTime":1527.809,"body":"double zeros, Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1527.849,"endTime":1528.899,"body":"It's very rare."},{"startTime":1528.899,"endTime":1530.319,"body":"I mean, do you want to take the chance?"},{"startTime":1530.329,"endTime":1531.409,"body":"That's what it boils down to."},{"startTime":1531.629,"endTime":1533.279,"body":"I mean, broken clock is right."},{"startTime":1533.279,"endTime":1533.869,"body":"Twice a day."},{"startTime":1533.869,"endTime":1535.309,"body":"Like that's this kind of scenario."},{"startTime":1535.309,"endTime":1538.089,"body":"Like I I've been on with a lot"},{"startTime":1535.309,"endTime":1538.089,"body":"of people that said we need this"},{"startTime":1538.089,"endTime":1539.379,"body":"feature and they were right."},{"startTime":1539.919,"endTime":1544.459,"body":"But also I've been with a lot"},{"startTime":1539.919,"endTime":1544.459,"body":"more people that said we need this"},{"startTime":1544.459,"endTime":1548.509,"body":"feature and we built a feature"},{"startTime":1544.459,"endTime":1548.509,"body":"and they were completely wrong."},{"startTime":1548.509,"endTime":1552.369,"body":"And once we built the feature and it"},{"startTime":1548.509,"endTime":1552.369,"body":"was completely the wrong feature because"},{"startTime":1552.369,"endTime":1557.479,"body":"we took, we took it on face value  that"},{"startTime":1552.369,"endTime":1557.479,"body":"that stakeholder, usually it's executive"},{"startTime":1557.639,"endTime":1560.199,"body":"sales, something like that, that"},{"startTime":1557.639,"endTime":1560.199,"body":"they did their research and they were"},{"startTime":1560.199,"endTime":1562.079,"body":"correct on the right thing to build."},{"startTime":1562.609,"endTime":1567.079,"body":"I would say it's starkly in the"},{"startTime":1562.609,"endTime":1567.079,"body":"camp of the, they did not do"},{"startTime":1567.079,"endTime":1568.999,"body":"their research and they are wrong."},{"startTime":1569.679,"endTime":1570.779,"body":"And the adoption."},{"startTime":1571.114,"endTime":1575.094,"body":"Fails to meet expectations, and"},{"startTime":1571.114,"endTime":1575.094,"body":"now that comes back on the product"},{"startTime":1575.094,"endTime":1576.194,"body":"manager and development team."},{"startTime":1576.644,"endTime":1582.684,"body":"It does not come back on the stakeholders"},{"startTime":1576.644,"endTime":1582.684,"body":"who suggested or heavily implied or"},{"startTime":1582.684,"endTime":1584.904,"body":"demanded or whatever the feature."},{"startTime":1584.904,"endTime":1588.294,"body":"Those stakeholders will turn right"},{"startTime":1584.904,"endTime":1588.294,"body":"around and say you didn't do it right."},{"startTime":1588.544,"endTime":1591.904,"body":"That's in the, that's actually, that's"},{"startTime":1588.544,"endTime":1591.904,"body":"in the Marty Cagan transform book"},{"startTime":1591.914,"endTime":1595.749,"body":"actually he even goes out of his way"},{"startTime":1591.914,"endTime":1595.749,"body":"to say, It doesn't come back on any of"},{"startTime":1595.749,"endTime":1597.479,"body":"those people that demand the feature."},{"startTime":1597.519,"endTime":1597.969,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1598.129,"endTime":1598.969,"body":"It comes back on the product manager."},{"startTime":1598.979,"endTime":1601.409,"body":"People that, yeah, people that"},{"startTime":1598.979,"endTime":1601.409,"body":"develop it and implement it."},{"startTime":1601.409,"endTime":1602.119,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1602.399,"endTime":1605.889,"body":"I think this is kind of broadly in the"},{"startTime":1602.399,"endTime":1605.889,"body":"category of, build it and they'll come."},{"startTime":1606.339,"endTime":1609.199,"body":"It's like, you don't know"},{"startTime":1606.339,"endTime":1609.199,"body":"what they need, right?"},{"startTime":1609.399,"endTime":1612.899,"body":"So maybe you happen to build the"},{"startTime":1609.399,"endTime":1612.899,"body":"right mousetrap for the right"},{"startTime":1612.899,"endTime":1616.649,"body":"person, you know, at the right"},{"startTime":1612.899,"endTime":1616.649,"body":"time, for the right size mouse."},{"startTime":1616.719,"endTime":1619.199,"body":"Uh, you gotta get really lucky for that."},{"startTime":1619.279,"endTime":1620.169,"body":", don't take your chances."},{"startTime":1620.169,"endTime":1622.397,"body":"Don't don't take your chances."},{"startTime":1622.397,"endTime":1625.249,"body":"Oh, well, I mean, if you're"},{"startTime":1622.397,"endTime":1625.249,"body":"willing to take chances, take"},{"startTime":1625.249,"endTime":1626.279,"body":"a chance on this podcast."},{"startTime":1626.299,"endTime":1627.539,"body":"Like, like, subscribe."},{"startTime":1627.579,"endTime":1628.259,"body":"Definitely."},{"startTime":1628.319,"endTime":1629.769,"body":"Take a chance on this podcast."},{"startTime":1629.829,"endTime":1632.699,"body":"We didn't talk about,"},{"startTime":1629.829,"endTime":1632.699,"body":", stakeholder alignment."},{"startTime":1632.729,"endTime":1633.249,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1633.259,"endTime":1634.289,"body":"We didn't talk about that one."},{"startTime":1634.289,"endTime":1638.759,"body":"Aligning always says so like a, if you're"},{"startTime":1634.289,"endTime":1638.759,"body":"doing prototyping as opposed to just"},{"startTime":1638.929,"endTime":1642.059,"body":"throwing stuff into production, , you"},{"startTime":1638.929,"endTime":1642.059,"body":"have the opportunity to align your"},{"startTime":1642.059,"endTime":1645.849,"body":"stakeholders and, and align and, and"},{"startTime":1642.059,"endTime":1645.849,"body":"actually, and not just the stakeholders,"},{"startTime":1645.859,"endTime":1647.839,"body":"it's also the features you're building."},{"startTime":1648.029,"endTime":1649.429,"body":"You have an opportunity to."},{"startTime":1649.774,"endTime":1653.274,"body":"To really think about, Hey, a lot of"},{"startTime":1649.774,"endTime":1653.274,"body":"stakeholders think this would be a great"},{"startTime":1653.274,"endTime":1659.774,"body":"feature, but does it really line up"},{"startTime":1653.274,"endTime":1659.774,"body":"to the, to, to, to my product vision?"},{"startTime":1659.784,"endTime":1663.244,"body":"Like my meaning, I I'm the product"},{"startTime":1659.784,"endTime":1663.244,"body":"manager now, does it, does it"},{"startTime":1663.244,"endTime":1666.674,"body":"really line up to the product of"},{"startTime":1663.244,"endTime":1666.674,"body":"vision that I'm trying to promote,"},{"startTime":1667.334,"endTime":1670.364,"body":"and if you're just kind of haphazardly"},{"startTime":1667.334,"endTime":1670.364,"body":"building things, throwing them out"},{"startTime":1670.364,"endTime":1672.979,"body":"there, are you purposely moving forward?"},{"startTime":1673.069,"endTime":1674.119,"body":"Is what I'm asking."},{"startTime":1674.329,"endTime":1677.009,"body":"You're likely building a"},{"startTime":1674.329,"endTime":1677.009,"body":"Franken monster, right?"},{"startTime":1677.009,"endTime":1678.579,"body":"If you keep doing it over and over again."},{"startTime":1678.579,"endTime":1679.659,"body":"So that's what I meant earlier."},{"startTime":1679.659,"endTime":1681.019,"body":"I think I mentioned that a little bit."},{"startTime":1681.169,"endTime":1685.279,"body":"It doesn't align with your overall"},{"startTime":1681.169,"endTime":1685.279,"body":"product strategy and direction, right."},{"startTime":1685.529,"endTime":1689.259,"body":"But in, you know, in regard to the"},{"startTime":1685.529,"endTime":1689.259,"body":"stakeholders, so you put something out"},{"startTime":1689.259,"endTime":1693.059,"body":"there in production, do you know if"},{"startTime":1689.259,"endTime":1693.059,"body":"that can be supported by your support?"},{"startTime":1693.079,"endTime":1696.839,"body":"People have, they've been apprised"},{"startTime":1693.079,"endTime":1696.839,"body":"of what's going on here, right?"},{"startTime":1697.084,"endTime":1699.104,"body":"Or is, are they going to be surprised?"},{"startTime":1699.204,"endTime":1702.194,"body":"I mean, you have to go"},{"startTime":1699.204,"endTime":1702.194,"body":"through that, right?"},{"startTime":1702.224,"endTime":1704.274,"body":"Enable your ops people, right?"},{"startTime":1704.524,"endTime":1707.174,"body":"Have you done the right change"},{"startTime":1704.524,"endTime":1707.174,"body":"management piece that's needed and"},{"startTime":1707.174,"endTime":1710.614,"body":"the right comms, or are people just"},{"startTime":1707.174,"endTime":1710.614,"body":"going to suddenly discover this thing?"},{"startTime":1710.674,"endTime":1713.574,"body":"You can at least publicize"},{"startTime":1710.674,"endTime":1713.574,"body":"the prototyping phase."},{"startTime":1713.584,"endTime":1717.134,"body":"Say, Hey, we, we've got these"},{"startTime":1713.584,"endTime":1717.134,"body":"prototypes, these screen designs, this,"},{"startTime":1717.154,"endTime":1721.314,"body":"this, this clickable wireframe, it's"},{"startTime":1717.154,"endTime":1721.314,"body":"publicly accessible in my company."},{"startTime":1721.464,"endTime":1725.434,"body":"So everybody can see the"},{"startTime":1721.464,"endTime":1725.434,"body":"path that we're considering."},{"startTime":1726.544,"endTime":1730.764,"body":"No, no, regardless of what stakeholders"},{"startTime":1726.544,"endTime":1730.764,"body":"are involved in evolving the actual"},{"startTime":1730.764,"endTime":1735.044,"body":"clickable wireframes or prototypes or"},{"startTime":1730.764,"endTime":1735.044,"body":"whatever, though those prototypes you"},{"startTime":1735.454,"endTime":1740.074,"body":"should, should sit in some sort of shared"},{"startTime":1735.454,"endTime":1740.074,"body":"environment where everyone can see them."},{"startTime":1740.509,"endTime":1743.099,"body":"Again, because we go back to"},{"startTime":1740.509,"endTime":1743.099,"body":"transparency is a good thing, right?"},{"startTime":1743.109,"endTime":1743.439,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1743.979,"endTime":1747.749,"body":"To say, this is where we're going"},{"startTime":1743.979,"endTime":1747.749,"body":"next, there should be some kind of, I"},{"startTime":1747.749,"endTime":1752.479,"body":"mean, at least quarterly update to say,"},{"startTime":1747.749,"endTime":1752.479,"body":"you should be constantly forecasting"},{"startTime":1753.239,"endTime":1759.059,"body":"the findings of your,  of your wire"},{"startTime":1753.239,"endTime":1759.059,"body":"frames and your discovery activities."},{"startTime":1760.009,"endTime":1761.479,"body":"With your internal stakeholders."},{"startTime":1761.519,"endTime":1763.989,"body":"I mean, honestly, you should be doing"},{"startTime":1761.519,"endTime":1763.989,"body":"it for everyone, but your internal"},{"startTime":1763.989,"endTime":1767.759,"body":"stakeholders at a minimum, so they"},{"startTime":1763.989,"endTime":1767.759,"body":"can start lining up to say, Oh, well,"},{"startTime":1767.789,"endTime":1771.929,"body":"there's a new feature that, that, that"},{"startTime":1767.789,"endTime":1771.929,"body":"now you can click on it and you can see,"},{"startTime":1772.309,"endTime":1776.999,"body":"you know, X, Y, Z, all from, and, you"},{"startTime":1772.309,"endTime":1776.999,"body":"know, from, from all the way from the"},{"startTime":1776.999,"endTime":1778.439,"body":"beginning to the end, the application."},{"startTime":1778.439,"endTime":1779.569,"body":"Now that's really cool."},{"startTime":1779.894,"endTime":1782.994,"body":"Like, and there'll be a period of"},{"startTime":1779.894,"endTime":1782.994,"body":"time where we can ask questions"},{"startTime":1782.994,"endTime":1784.234,"body":"and talk about it or whatever."},{"startTime":1784.494,"endTime":1785.344,"body":"How do we sell it?"},{"startTime":1785.354,"endTime":1786.264,"body":"How do we support it?"},{"startTime":1786.514,"endTime":1787.694,"body":"How do we maintain it?"},{"startTime":1787.804,"endTime":1790.824,"body":"How do we, you know, make it go away when"},{"startTime":1787.804,"endTime":1790.824,"body":"it's time for it to go away or whatever."},{"startTime":1791.064,"endTime":1795.884,"body":"There's, there's a, there's a top"},{"startTime":1791.064,"endTime":1795.884,"body":"to bottom kind of a life cycle that"},{"startTime":1795.884,"endTime":1799.804,"body":"needs to be talked about internally"},{"startTime":1795.884,"endTime":1799.804,"body":"so that everyone can line up and not,"},{"startTime":1799.834,"endTime":1801.384,"body":"I put that on the product manager."},{"startTime":1801.394,"endTime":1806.684,"body":"That's that's that that is squarely"},{"startTime":1801.394,"endTime":1806.684,"body":"the product manager's job, but also."},{"startTime":1807.344,"endTime":1811.224,"body":"If you're prototyping, and everyone"},{"startTime":1807.344,"endTime":1811.224,"body":"has a say in the matter, everyone"},{"startTime":1811.234,"endTime":1812.294,"body":"should be able to speak to that."},{"startTime":1812.304,"endTime":1815.854,"body":"The designer, the developers,"},{"startTime":1812.304,"endTime":1815.854,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1815.874,"endTime":1818.744,"body":"Everyone should be able to"},{"startTime":1815.874,"endTime":1818.744,"body":"understand from top to bottom."},{"startTime":1818.864,"endTime":1820.104,"body":"I fully agree with that."},{"startTime":1820.134,"endTime":1823.354,"body":"I mean, maybe your ops people will"},{"startTime":1820.134,"endTime":1823.354,"body":"say, Listen, we can't monitor that"},{"startTime":1823.354,"endTime":1824.574,"body":"stuff that you're putting in there."},{"startTime":1824.774,"endTime":1828.484,"body":"We don't know how it's going to scale when"},{"startTime":1824.774,"endTime":1828.484,"body":"a thousand concurrent users get on there."},{"startTime":1828.774,"endTime":1829.804,"body":"So yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":1830.164,"endTime":1833.504,"body":"I would go a little further here"},{"startTime":1830.164,"endTime":1833.504,"body":"and say, If you're doing this."},{"startTime":1833.849,"endTime":1836.449,"body":"Yeah, non prod, but"},{"startTime":1833.849,"endTime":1836.449,"body":"production like environment."},{"startTime":1836.459,"endTime":1839.849,"body":"Get your customers close to"},{"startTime":1836.459,"endTime":1839.849,"body":"you into that environment and"},{"startTime":1839.849,"endTime":1840.859,"body":"say, here's what we're doing."},{"startTime":1841.179,"endTime":1843.009,"body":"Does this does this look right to you?"},{"startTime":1843.289,"endTime":1844.209,"body":"What would you change?"},{"startTime":1844.229,"endTime":1844.509,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1844.829,"endTime":1846.009,"body":"Is this a value to you?"},{"startTime":1846.439,"endTime":1846.789,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1847.179,"endTime":1848.349,"body":"That's the early feedback."},{"startTime":1848.549,"endTime":1851.909,"body":"Now, you're not spending a whole"},{"startTime":1848.549,"endTime":1851.909,"body":"lot of time there, necessarily."},{"startTime":1852.069,"endTime":1852.929,"body":"Imagine that."},{"startTime":1853.269,"endTime":1855.949,"body":"Compare the two scenarios where you're"},{"startTime":1853.269,"endTime":1855.949,"body":"just developing and shoving that into"},{"startTime":1855.949,"endTime":1860.772,"body":"production versus developing and putting"},{"startTime":1855.949,"endTime":1860.772,"body":"it into a lower environment, production"},{"startTime":1860.772,"endTime":1865.279,"body":"like alternate production and getting"},{"startTime":1860.772,"endTime":1865.279,"body":"them in and say, put your hands on"},{"startTime":1865.279,"endTime":1866.779,"body":"this and let us know what you think."},{"startTime":1866.789,"endTime":1869.059,"body":"How, how much of a stretch is that really?"},{"startTime":1869.124,"endTime":1873.804,"body":"Clickable wireframes are so advanced now"},{"startTime":1869.124,"endTime":1873.804,"body":"you can tie them into a real database."},{"startTime":1873.814,"endTime":1878.954,"body":"Like, I mean, they're very, uh, compared"},{"startTime":1873.814,"endTime":1878.954,"body":"to five years ago, they're very advanced"},{"startTime":1878.964,"endTime":1880.364,"body":"now where they have a lot of capability."},{"startTime":1880.604,"endTime":1883.054,"body":"I mean, they, they can even integrate"},{"startTime":1880.604,"endTime":1883.054,"body":"with APIs, believe it or not."},{"startTime":1883.054,"endTime":1884.204,"body":"Like some, some wireframes."},{"startTime":1884.379,"endTime":1886.279,"body":"And not every button needs to do anything."},{"startTime":1886.289,"endTime":1888.019,"body":"No, and they certainly don't."},{"startTime":1888.229,"endTime":1893.929,"body":"But the point is, you could be, when"},{"startTime":1888.229,"endTime":1893.929,"body":"you update the wireframes, or when you"},{"startTime":1893.939,"endTime":1898.669,"body":"get to Some intentional spot that you"},{"startTime":1893.939,"endTime":1898.669,"body":"get to in your prototyping experience."},{"startTime":1899.029,"endTime":1903.019,"body":"You can send out an email blast to"},{"startTime":1899.029,"endTime":1903.019,"body":"your, to your power users, because"},{"startTime":1903.019,"endTime":1903.729,"body":"that's what we're talking about."},{"startTime":1903.729,"endTime":1906.449,"body":"Now, when you say, Oh, we're going to"},{"startTime":1903.729,"endTime":1906.449,"body":"promote it to this lower environment."},{"startTime":1906.829,"endTime":1909.119,"body":"Not every single one of your users"},{"startTime":1906.829,"endTime":1909.119,"body":"is going to have access to the"},{"startTime":1909.119,"endTime":1911.529,"body":"lower environment, but they're"},{"startTime":1909.119,"endTime":1911.529,"body":"probably going to be a select group"},{"startTime":1911.969,"endTime":1913.929,"body":"of users that you value, right."},{"startTime":1914.119,"endTime":1917.809,"body":"To send out an email blast that says,"},{"startTime":1914.119,"endTime":1917.809,"body":"Hey, , these new features are in this"},{"startTime":1917.819,"endTime":1921.109,"body":"environment, if you want to go, you"},{"startTime":1917.819,"endTime":1921.109,"body":"know, poke around and look at them."},{"startTime":1921.369,"endTime":1924.759,"body":"And then, , when you do,"},{"startTime":1921.369,"endTime":1924.759,"body":"here's the link to my calendar."},{"startTime":1925.649,"endTime":1929.079,"body":"To schedule some time to talk about"},{"startTime":1925.649,"endTime":1929.079,"body":"what you see whenever you want to"},{"startTime":1929.299,"endTime":1932.969,"body":"schedule some time and I, the product"},{"startTime":1929.299,"endTime":1932.969,"body":"manager will get on the call, you know,"},{"startTime":1933.339,"endTime":1934.779,"body":"obviously it'll go to my calendar."},{"startTime":1934.779,"endTime":1937.799,"body":"I'll get on a call or maybe it'll go"},{"startTime":1934.779,"endTime":1937.799,"body":"to a team calendar, whatever, right?"},{"startTime":1938.279,"endTime":1940.119,"body":"Get on a call, bring my tech lead."},{"startTime":1940.219,"endTime":1943.079,"body":"We'll talk to what you"},{"startTime":1940.219,"endTime":1943.079,"body":"think about the new features"},{"startTime":1943.629,"endTime":1947.089,"body":"we started in this podcast talking"},{"startTime":1943.629,"endTime":1947.089,"body":"about, okay, the reason that you would"},{"startTime":1947.089,"endTime":1951.204,"body":"just Just say, Oh, if it's, if it's"},{"startTime":1947.089,"endTime":1951.204,"body":"real easy, we'll just send it out and"},{"startTime":1951.204,"endTime":1952.464,"body":"we'll just code it and send it out."},{"startTime":1952.964,"endTime":1956.844,"body":"You did that because it, the speed"},{"startTime":1952.964,"endTime":1956.844,"body":"of delivery, you know, whoa, it's"},{"startTime":1956.854,"endTime":1959.714,"body":"easier for me to just throw something"},{"startTime":1956.854,"endTime":1959.714,"body":"out there rather than spend a"},{"startTime":1959.714,"endTime":1960.674,"body":"bunch of time talking about it."},{"startTime":1960.674,"endTime":1962.264,"body":"And it's, it costs less."},{"startTime":1962.474,"endTime":1963.894,"body":"We don't have to engage the designer."},{"startTime":1963.894,"endTime":1964.974,"body":"We don't have to engage all this."},{"startTime":1964.974,"endTime":1967.724,"body":"We don't have to send whatever we"},{"startTime":1964.974,"endTime":1967.724,"body":"can just code it and send it out."},{"startTime":1968.864,"endTime":1971.174,"body":"You can do the same thing"},{"startTime":1968.864,"endTime":1971.174,"body":"with clickable wireframes."},{"startTime":1971.174,"endTime":1971.514,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1971.904,"endTime":1978.304,"body":"And it costs you, I would argue way"},{"startTime":1971.904,"endTime":1978.304,"body":"less to send it out and an email blast"},{"startTime":1978.674,"endTime":1981.834,"body":"to your beta customers or whatever, you"},{"startTime":1978.674,"endTime":1981.834,"body":"know, alpha customers, whatever they are."},{"startTime":1981.854,"endTime":1982.014,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1982.014,"endTime":1982.264,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1982.794,"endTime":1985.964,"body":"Schedule some time with your product"},{"startTime":1982.794,"endTime":1985.964,"body":"manager and have the people that really"},{"startTime":1985.964,"endTime":1987.614,"body":"are interested in making a difference."},{"startTime":1988.129,"endTime":1988.929,"body":"Connect with you."},{"startTime":1989.129,"endTime":1993.259,"body":"I mean you can do outreach to you can"},{"startTime":1989.129,"endTime":1993.259,"body":"send them screenshots or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":1993.259,"endTime":1995.359,"body":"You can do outreach director outreach."},{"startTime":1995.409,"endTime":1998.839,"body":"Sure, because you know, if somebody"},{"startTime":1995.409,"endTime":1998.839,"body":"is reaching out for you to get time"},{"startTime":1998.839,"endTime":2001.599,"body":"on your calendar to tell you what"},{"startTime":1998.839,"endTime":2001.599,"body":"they think they're invested in,"},{"startTime":2001.609,"endTime":2003.519,"body":"they're really engaged at that point."},{"startTime":2003.839,"endTime":2007.959,"body":"I mean, you really have to value"},{"startTime":2003.839,"endTime":2007.959,"body":"that kind of feedback because usually"},{"startTime":2007.959,"endTime":2009.529,"body":"what usually is a product manager."},{"startTime":2009.669,"endTime":2015.829,"body":"What I deal with is I have to go"},{"startTime":2009.669,"endTime":2015.829,"body":"beg people for their feedback."},{"startTime":2015.829,"endTime":2018.929,"body":"I have to send out 100 emails"},{"startTime":2015.829,"endTime":2018.929,"body":"and I get back maybe five."},{"startTime":2018.929,"endTime":2018.959,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2019.554,"endTime":2022.114,"body":"And out of those five, how"},{"startTime":2019.554,"endTime":2022.114,"body":"many are willing to have a 20"},{"startTime":2022.114,"endTime":2023.224,"body":"minute conversation with me?"},{"startTime":2023.744,"endTime":2024.864,"body":"Very few, right?"},{"startTime":2025.084,"endTime":2025.274,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2025.274,"endTime":2028.484,"body":"And that, that, that is a"},{"startTime":2025.274,"endTime":2028.484,"body":"reality of asking for feedback."},{"startTime":2028.844,"endTime":2030.804,"body":"Which, which, which should"},{"startTime":2028.844,"endTime":2030.804,"body":"be a whole different podcast."},{"startTime":2031.394,"endTime":2031.924,"body":"You know, asking for feedback."},{"startTime":2031.934,"endTime":2032.364,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2032.704,"endTime":2033.224,"body":"It should be."},{"startTime":2033.384,"endTime":2033.874,"body":"It should be."},{"startTime":2033.874,"endTime":2036.654,"body":"I mean, look, I, I immediately"},{"startTime":2033.874,"endTime":2036.654,"body":"think about, you know, things like"},{"startTime":2037.204,"endTime":2040.784,"body":"putting out something that really"},{"startTime":2037.204,"endTime":2040.784,"body":"appeals to them in the email blast"},{"startTime":2040.894,"endTime":2043.254,"body":"and say, This is so important, right?"},{"startTime":2043.464,"endTime":2050.274,"body":"We need feedback by this date, and you"},{"startTime":2043.464,"endTime":2050.274,"body":"know, the top five people will be on this"},{"startTime":2050.274,"endTime":2055.364,"body":"little, almost like a, you'll have a,"},{"startTime":2050.274,"endTime":2055.364,"body":"you'll have an event, so to speak, right?"},{"startTime":2055.374,"endTime":2057.314,"body":"So the top five people"},{"startTime":2055.374,"endTime":2057.314,"body":"will be featured in that."},{"startTime":2057.964,"endTime":2061.524,"body":"Basically, create a sense of"},{"startTime":2057.964,"endTime":2061.524,"body":"urgency for them to engage with you."},{"startTime":2061.624,"endTime":2064.179,"body":"Otherwise, they're going to say,"},{"startTime":2061.624,"endTime":2064.179,"body":"Oh, yeah, I'm busy right now,"},{"startTime":2064.199,"endTime":2067.049,"body":"but I mean, you know, you know, the"},{"startTime":2064.199,"endTime":2067.049,"body":"other thing you can do if you if you're"},{"startTime":2067.049,"endTime":2069.659,"body":"a product manager, you have a budget"},{"startTime":2067.049,"endTime":2069.659,"body":"and you're not in the government space,"},{"startTime":2069.709,"endTime":2072.499,"body":"I have to point that out, you know,"},{"startTime":2069.709,"endTime":2072.499,"body":"because in the government space, you can't"},{"startTime":2072.499,"endTime":2074.599,"body":"do this, but in the in the B2B space."},{"startTime":2075.089,"endTime":2078.449,"body":"You can offer, , like"},{"startTime":2075.089,"endTime":2078.449,"body":"a fabulous cash prize."},{"startTime":2078.859,"endTime":2080.229,"body":"Basically, you can offer your incentives."},{"startTime":2080.819,"endTime":2081.969,"body":"Compensation for their time."},{"startTime":2081.969,"endTime":2083.439,"body":"Hey, , 30 minutes of your time."},{"startTime":2083.649,"endTime":2085.809,"body":"Review and we'll send"},{"startTime":2083.649,"endTime":2085.809,"body":"you an Amazon gift card."},{"startTime":2085.819,"endTime":2086.529,"body":"Yeah, an Amazon gift card."},{"startTime":2086.789,"endTime":2087.239,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2087.239,"endTime":2091.549,"body":"I mean, there's techniques to, you"},{"startTime":2087.239,"endTime":2091.549,"body":"know, lure people in to do this, right?"},{"startTime":2092.059,"endTime":2093.139,"body":"In a timely manner."},{"startTime":2093.139,"endTime":2094.199,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":2094.549,"endTime":2094.949,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2094.959,"endTime":2097.749,"body":"Cause you put this out there and you want"},{"startTime":2094.959,"endTime":2097.749,"body":"quick feedback , the interesting thing"},{"startTime":2097.749,"endTime":2101.709,"body":"about this is if you're not thinking"},{"startTime":2097.749,"endTime":2101.709,"body":"this way, and this is like a revelation"},{"startTime":2101.709,"endTime":2103.669,"body":"to you right now, like how much."},{"startTime":2104.099,"endTime":2107.139,"body":"Is feedback on that new"},{"startTime":2104.099,"endTime":2107.139,"body":"feature worth your company?"},{"startTime":2107.449,"endTime":2109.009,"body":"Is it worth 500?"},{"startTime":2109.319,"endTime":2112.599,"body":"So you get five reviews, you"},{"startTime":2109.319,"endTime":2112.599,"body":"give me a 100 Amazon gift card."},{"startTime":2112.799,"endTime":2119.739,"body":"Like is, is, is 500 worth it to you"},{"startTime":2112.799,"endTime":2119.739,"body":"for unbiased direct user feedback?"},{"startTime":2119.849,"endTime":2122.949,"body":"It's worth its weight in gold, in my"},{"startTime":2119.849,"endTime":2122.949,"body":"opinion, on a feature that you launched."},{"startTime":2122.959,"endTime":2123.669,"body":"For sure."},{"startTime":2123.769,"endTime":2125.719,"body":"Look at the flip side of it, right?"},{"startTime":2125.739,"endTime":2126.849,"body":"So say 500 bucks."},{"startTime":2126.849,"endTime":2127.499,"body":"Don't do that."},{"startTime":2127.539,"endTime":2131.059,"body":"But what if something really, you"},{"startTime":2127.539,"endTime":2131.059,"body":"know, it hits the proverbial fan."},{"startTime":2131.764,"endTime":2132.724,"body":"So to speak, right?"},{"startTime":2132.934,"endTime":2133.084,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2133.084,"endTime":2136.444,"body":"Or you, you suffer rep damage"},{"startTime":2133.084,"endTime":2136.444,"body":"and that is a lot, lot worse."},{"startTime":2136.474,"endTime":2136.714,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2136.774,"endTime":2137.299,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2137.344,"endTime":2138.874,"body":"So I definitely, yeah."},{"startTime":2138.904,"endTime":2139.654,"body":"500 bucks."},{"startTime":2139.744,"endTime":2140.044,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2140.049,"endTime":2140.344,"body":"Do it."},{"startTime":2140.854,"endTime":2142.084,"body":"There's some easy stuff here."},{"startTime":2142.084,"endTime":2144.364,"body":"There's some lou hanging fruit here."},{"startTime":2144.464,"endTime":2147.884,"body":"I brought this up because , somebody"},{"startTime":2144.464,"endTime":2147.884,"body":"that I interacted with on my normal"},{"startTime":2147.894,"endTime":2150.524,"body":"day to day, they brought up, Hey,"},{"startTime":2147.894,"endTime":2150.524,"body":"why don't we just build this?"},{"startTime":2150.524,"endTime":2152.804,"body":"We don't need to do prototyping"},{"startTime":2150.524,"endTime":2152.804,"body":"or whatever, and,, I didn't"},{"startTime":2152.804,"endTime":2153.574,"body":"feel good about that."},{"startTime":2153.574,"endTime":2156.854,"body":"The hair on the back of my"},{"startTime":2153.574,"endTime":2156.854,"body":"neck, it all stood up, and I was"},{"startTime":2156.854,"endTime":2158.274,"body":"like, something's wrong here."},{"startTime":2158.544,"endTime":2161.544,"body":"My spidey sense is tingling,"},{"startTime":2158.544,"endTime":2161.544,"body":"and I don't know why."},{"startTime":2161.554,"endTime":2166.699,"body":"I couldn't, I couldn't exactly describe"},{"startTime":2161.554,"endTime":2166.699,"body":"Why I felt, , negatively about the"},{"startTime":2166.699,"endTime":2170.929,"body":"statement in the moment, but after"},{"startTime":2166.699,"endTime":2170.929,"body":"thinking about it afterwards, there's"},{"startTime":2170.939,"endTime":2176.139,"body":"so many opportunities for learning"},{"startTime":2170.939,"endTime":2176.139,"body":"and to do a better job if we just"},{"startTime":2176.619,"endTime":2179.179,"body":"try these prototyping, uh, steps."},{"startTime":2179.689,"endTime":2183.769,"body":"there are very few cases where"},{"startTime":2179.689,"endTime":2183.769,"body":"it makes sense to just build"},{"startTime":2183.769,"endTime":2184.729,"body":"it and throw it out there."},{"startTime":2185.579,"endTime":2188.649,"body":"You know, I, I mean, I, I'm not"},{"startTime":2185.579,"endTime":2188.649,"body":"completely on the fence of we"},{"startTime":2188.649,"endTime":2189.779,"body":"have to prototype everything."},{"startTime":2189.869,"endTime":2194.764,"body":"I, I, I do think that if we"},{"startTime":2189.869,"endTime":2194.764,"body":"were small enough, And we had"},{"startTime":2194.764,"endTime":2197.644,"body":"a, controlled group of users."},{"startTime":2197.644,"endTime":2201.144,"body":"This tactic would work if, if"},{"startTime":2197.644,"endTime":2201.144,"body":"our app was small enough, we were"},{"startTime":2201.144,"endTime":2203.234,"body":"very early in product market fit."},{"startTime":2203.689,"endTime":2204.379,"body":"Is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":2204.709,"endTime":2208.569,"body":"I think you also have to tie down to"},{"startTime":2204.709,"endTime":2208.569,"body":"specific, , small team use cases or"},{"startTime":2208.569,"endTime":2210.249,"body":"personas, small team, then it could work."},{"startTime":2210.249,"endTime":2210.429,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2210.429,"endTime":2213.009,"body":"Team, few personas, small team."},{"startTime":2213.014,"endTime":2213.069,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2213.329,"endTime":2216.059,"body":"Very, very specific use cases."},{"startTime":2216.059,"endTime":2216.479,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2216.509,"endTime":2219.839,"body":"I mean, very small company type"},{"startTime":2216.509,"endTime":2219.839,"body":"of, you know, it's a calculated"},{"startTime":2219.844,"endTime":2220.859,"body":"risk at the end of the day."},{"startTime":2220.864,"endTime":2222.689,"body":"I mean, that's how I look at it, right?"},{"startTime":2222.689,"endTime":2225.419,"body":"You gotta calculate the"},{"startTime":2222.689,"endTime":2225.419,"body":"risk factors appropriately."},{"startTime":2225.629,"endTime":2225.719,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2226.049,"endTime":2228.689,"body":"But you know, having said that"},{"startTime":2226.049,"endTime":2228.689,"body":"though, it's not like we're"},{"startTime":2228.689,"endTime":2231.809,"body":"saying, or at least I'm not saying"},{"startTime":2228.689,"endTime":2231.809,"body":"that you don't ever do that."},{"startTime":2231.859,"endTime":2234.289,"body":"You always ever do all"},{"startTime":2231.859,"endTime":2234.289,"body":"of the due diligence."},{"startTime":2234.289,"endTime":2235.579,"body":"There's a middle ground here, right?"},{"startTime":2235.869,"endTime":2239.449,"body":"And that's where I mentioned that,"},{"startTime":2235.869,"endTime":2239.449,"body":"that , kind of like a, a preview"},{"startTime":2239.449,"endTime":2242.459,"body":"environment where you can put this"},{"startTime":2239.449,"endTime":2242.459,"body":"thing into quickly and get your"},{"startTime":2242.469,"endTime":2244.279,"body":"customers in there, again, quickly."},{"startTime":2244.449,"endTime":2247.799,"body":"It might not be two hours, it"},{"startTime":2244.449,"endTime":2247.799,"body":"might be a day, but that's okay."},{"startTime":2247.949,"endTime":2251.729,"body":"It's worth spending that time"},{"startTime":2247.949,"endTime":2251.729,"body":"rather than rushing it out there."},{"startTime":2252.019,"endTime":2252.829,"body":"That's what we're saying."},{"startTime":2252.829,"endTime":2255.449,"body":"That does make sense for the,"},{"startTime":2252.829,"endTime":2255.449,"body":"for the companies that, they have"},{"startTime":2255.449,"endTime":2258.069,"body":"the money for having a middle"},{"startTime":2255.449,"endTime":2258.069,"body":"ground environment like that."},{"startTime":2258.549,"endTime":2263.639,"body":"Not every company has that, cause there"},{"startTime":2258.549,"endTime":2263.639,"body":"are certain development practices required"},{"startTime":2263.639,"endTime":2267.609,"body":"for you to, to, to be able to have a"},{"startTime":2263.639,"endTime":2267.609,"body":"middle ground environment like that,"},{"startTime":2267.769,"endTime":2271.169,"body":"you know, that has all, you know, all"},{"startTime":2267.769,"endTime":2271.169,"body":"the data of all the production data."},{"startTime":2271.524,"endTime":2275.594,"body":"But in this, you know, sandbox that"},{"startTime":2271.524,"endTime":2275.594,"body":"you can't mess anything up or whatever."},{"startTime":2275.704,"endTime":2278.434,"body":"It's not a technical reason"},{"startTime":2275.704,"endTime":2278.434,"body":"why they don't have it usually."},{"startTime":2278.884,"endTime":2279.744,"body":"no, you're right."},{"startTime":2279.944,"endTime":2280.134,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2280.164,"endTime":2281.684,"body":"Cause it's easy to replicate it."},{"startTime":2281.704,"endTime":2282.154,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":2282.244,"endTime":2282.594,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2283.074,"endTime":2283.424,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2284.284,"endTime":2287.474,"body":"If you listen to this podcast,"},{"startTime":2284.284,"endTime":2287.474,"body":"you now know that it's possible."},{"startTime":2287.684,"endTime":2290.364,"body":"And, , you now know that it really"},{"startTime":2287.684,"endTime":2290.364,"body":"doesn't cost that much more."},{"startTime":2290.739,"endTime":2290.959,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2291.029,"endTime":2293.689,"body":"So go, go, go do it."},{"startTime":2293.699,"endTime":2295.039,"body":"You have our blessings."},{"startTime":2295.919,"endTime":2296.439,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2296.449,"endTime":2298.959,"body":"And also you have our blessings"},{"startTime":2296.449,"endTime":2298.959,"body":"to like and subscribe."},{"startTime":2299.169,"endTime":2302.179,"body":"Oh, please like and subscribe"},{"startTime":2299.169,"endTime":2302.179,"body":"because you'll get more nuggets"},{"startTime":2302.179,"endTime":2305.629,"body":"of wisdom like this that's worth"},{"startTime":2302.179,"endTime":2305.629,"body":"every penny you didn't pay for."}]}