{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":12.237,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":12.247,"endTime":13.787,"body":"Welcome back to arguing agile."},{"startTime":13.847,"endTime":18.148,"body":"I've been told several times now"},{"startTime":13.847,"endTime":18.148,"body":"by people well, our organization"},{"startTime":18.148,"endTime":19.458,"body":"delivers products and services."},{"startTime":19.608,"endTime":23.328,"body":"And we're, because we do that,"},{"startTime":19.608,"endTime":23.328,"body":"we are unique and whenever I hear"},{"startTime":23.328,"endTime":27.158,"body":"that as a product manager, I react"},{"startTime":23.328,"endTime":27.158,"body":"like they just kicked my dog."},{"startTime":27.308,"endTime":28.818,"body":"I probably should get better at that."},{"startTime":28.848,"endTime":31.248,"body":"I said, what I'm saying is that's"},{"startTime":28.848,"endTime":31.248,"body":"a personal failing of my own."},{"startTime":31.258,"endTime":32.258,"body":"That's what I'm trying to tell you."},{"startTime":32.408,"endTime":34.278,"body":"And react like they just kicked my camel."},{"startTime":34.428,"endTime":37.918,"body":"Everybody thinks that company is"},{"startTime":34.428,"endTime":37.918,"body":"unique, just because they have"},{"startTime":37.918,"endTime":40.898,"body":"a mix of products and services."},{"startTime":40.988,"endTime":45.558,"body":"So in this podcast, we're going to"},{"startTime":40.988,"endTime":45.558,"body":"delve into how companies deliver these."},{"startTime":45.678,"endTime":49.508,"body":"We'll look at some examples of companies"},{"startTime":45.678,"endTime":49.508,"body":"that do these and maybe some models on"},{"startTime":49.508,"endTime":51.608,"body":"how they're organized and how to deliver."},{"startTime":51.658,"endTime":53.808,"body":"So the products and services together,"},{"startTime":53.838,"endTime":57.028,"body":"After I got over my initial"},{"startTime":53.838,"endTime":57.028,"body":"terrible reaction, I started really"},{"startTime":57.038,"endTime":58.208,"body":"thinking about it and saying."},{"startTime":58.358,"endTime":60.218,"body":"Are these things unique?"},{"startTime":60.218,"endTime":63.528,"body":"Because even when we talked to the"},{"startTime":60.218,"endTime":63.528,"body":"networking event, we went to, I brought"},{"startTime":63.528,"endTime":67.298,"body":"this up with a few people that have"},{"startTime":63.528,"endTime":67.298,"body":"been in their careers for 20 plus"},{"startTime":67.298,"endTime":69.668,"body":"years and said this was pitches unique."},{"startTime":69.668,"endTime":73.398,"body":"But in the early two thousands, when I"},{"startTime":69.668,"endTime":73.398,"body":"started my career, I recall most companies"},{"startTime":73.428,"endTime":75.578,"body":"delivered a service and a product."},{"startTime":75.758,"endTime":80.028,"body":"In parallel and did it fine,"},{"startTime":75.758,"endTime":80.028,"body":"like a normal business."},{"startTime":80.178,"endTime":83.088,"body":"Yeah, I mean, before we go much"},{"startTime":80.178,"endTime":83.088,"body":"further, let's just define what"},{"startTime":83.108,"endTime":84.688,"body":"we mean by these terms, right?"},{"startTime":84.838,"endTime":87.988,"body":"So a product is something that"},{"startTime":84.838,"endTime":87.988,"body":"you can actually feel in touch."},{"startTime":88.138,"endTime":91.328,"body":"As, as opposed to a service,"},{"startTime":88.138,"endTime":91.328,"body":"which you can experience."},{"startTime":91.478,"endTime":94.058,"body":"But you may not be able to see or feel."},{"startTime":94.208,"endTime":94.428,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":94.428,"endTime":95.718,"body":"So let's, you're right."},{"startTime":95.718,"endTime":98.238,"body":"Let, let, let's stop and spend a"},{"startTime":95.718,"endTime":98.238,"body":"couple of minutes, maybe five, 10"},{"startTime":98.238,"endTime":103.528,"body":"minutes and talk about how the product"},{"startTime":98.238,"endTime":103.528,"body":"delivery is different than a service"},{"startTime":103.528,"endTime":105.428,"body":"delivery, organizationally speaking."},{"startTime":105.578,"endTime":106.188,"body":"How are they different?"},{"startTime":106.188,"endTime":109.678,"body":"So again, I I'm product"},{"startTime":106.188,"endTime":109.678,"body":"manager on the podcast, so in a"},{"startTime":109.688,"endTime":111.598,"body":"normal  product operating model."},{"startTime":111.648,"endTime":112.348,"body":"See what I'm doing."},{"startTime":112.348,"endTime":112.888,"body":"I did the money."},{"startTime":113.158,"endTime":113.598,"body":"I saw that."},{"startTime":113.598,"endTime":115.608,"body":"I didn't say, I didn't"},{"startTime":113.598,"endTime":115.608,"body":"say agile transformation."},{"startTime":115.608,"endTime":116.758,"body":"I said product operating model."},{"startTime":116.908,"endTime":118.278,"body":"The complexity."},{"startTime":118.288,"endTime":121.918,"body":"So if you're, if you're just delivering"},{"startTime":118.288,"endTime":121.918,"body":"one product, one product line, you"},{"startTime":121.918,"endTime":125.318,"body":"have one, maybe a couple of teams"},{"startTime":121.918,"endTime":125.318,"body":"that deliver that one product and"},{"startTime":125.318,"endTime":128.848,"body":"you're, and, and if you, let's pretend"},{"startTime":125.318,"endTime":128.848,"body":"you're B2C software for a second,"},{"startTime":128.998,"endTime":133.048,"body":"that's probably the most pure product"},{"startTime":128.998,"endTime":133.048,"body":"delivery model that we can think of."},{"startTime":133.198,"endTime":134.078,"body":"You have a product."},{"startTime":134.398,"endTime":138.058,"body":"You push things out, you're kind of"},{"startTime":134.398,"endTime":138.058,"body":"measuring how your users are, are, are"},{"startTime":138.168,"endTime":141.758,"body":"responding to the, to the new features"},{"startTime":138.168,"endTime":141.758,"body":"and you know, the new things, the new"},{"startTime":141.758,"endTime":145.778,"body":"capabilities you're pushing out in your"},{"startTime":141.758,"endTime":145.778,"body":"product and you're asking people what"},{"startTime":145.778,"endTime":148.538,"body":"they want next and you're delivering"},{"startTime":145.778,"endTime":148.538,"body":"new features directly to users."},{"startTime":148.548,"endTime":150.318,"body":"That's B2C straightforward."},{"startTime":150.368,"endTime":151.098,"body":"It's just a product."},{"startTime":151.188,"endTime":153.438,"body":"there's no additional"},{"startTime":151.188,"endTime":153.438,"body":"services offered, right?"},{"startTime":153.448,"endTime":156.208,"body":"This is like Facebook, for"},{"startTime":153.448,"endTime":156.208,"body":"example, like you don't like the"},{"startTime":156.208,"endTime":157.668,"body":"way Facebook does their timeline."},{"startTime":157.968,"endTime":158.818,"body":"What are you going to do?"},{"startTime":158.848,"endTime":161.508,"body":"Like a tweet and Mark Zuckerberg"},{"startTime":158.848,"endTime":161.508,"body":"and say, you don't like it."},{"startTime":161.508,"endTime":162.268,"body":"Like that's, that's it."},{"startTime":162.358,"endTime":163.547,"body":"It is what it is."},{"startTime":163.828,"endTime":164.128,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":164.278,"endTime":165.388,"body":"It's a transaction."},{"startTime":165.668,"endTime":168.168,"body":"You know, you give them like"},{"startTime":165.668,"endTime":168.168,"body":"Facebook's a bad, bad transaction"},{"startTime":168.168,"endTime":169.278,"body":"because you don't give them money."},{"startTime":169.558,"endTime":171.948,"body":"LinkedIn, for example, like you"},{"startTime":169.558,"endTime":171.948,"body":"don't like the way that LinkedIn"},{"startTime":172.068,"endTime":174.428,"body":"you don't like all the bots that"},{"startTime":172.068,"endTime":174.428,"body":"you interact with on LinkedIn."},{"startTime":174.428,"endTime":176.578,"body":"I was going to say AI generated"},{"startTime":174.428,"endTime":176.578,"body":"content, but maybe that's too"},{"startTime":176.578,"endTime":178.938,"body":"close to home for a lot of people"},{"startTime":176.578,"endTime":178.938,"body":"that might be listening to this."},{"startTime":179.088,"endTime":182.588,"body":"You know, you, you want LinkedIn to"},{"startTime":179.088,"endTime":182.588,"body":"clean up all the AI generated content."},{"startTime":182.818,"endTime":183.488,"body":"So it's more like."},{"startTime":183.638,"endTime":187.218,"body":"Yeah, good luck or you just want linkedin"},{"startTime":183.638,"endTime":187.218,"body":"to give you a few more emojis in the"},{"startTime":187.218,"endTime":189.048,"body":"five they give you Yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":189.378,"endTime":192.208,"body":"I have to do emojis on my phone"},{"startTime":189.378,"endTime":192.208,"body":"when I post to linkedin then it"},{"startTime":192.308,"endTime":194.073,"body":"then it gives me It's like Aladdin."},{"startTime":194.073,"endTime":195.833,"body":"It's like a whole new world of emojis."},{"startTime":196.083,"endTime":196.403,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":196.553,"endTime":199.743,"body":"So I look, it doesn't matter"},{"startTime":196.553,"endTime":199.743,"body":"what you know, product or"},{"startTime":199.743,"endTime":201.123,"body":"service you think about, right?"},{"startTime":201.273,"endTime":203.303,"body":"Ultimately it comes down to this."},{"startTime":203.313,"endTime":206.773,"body":"What is it that you're bringing"},{"startTime":203.313,"endTime":206.773,"body":"to the market for your customer?"},{"startTime":207.063,"endTime":209.863,"body":"If it is a tangible product, then okay."},{"startTime":210.013,"endTime":210.783,"body":"That's a product."},{"startTime":211.083,"endTime":214.543,"body":"Are you just simply delivering the"},{"startTime":211.083,"endTime":214.543,"body":"product to the customer, right?"},{"startTime":214.873,"endTime":219.393,"body":"Or are you offering some kind of"},{"startTime":214.873,"endTime":219.393,"body":"experience for them as well, right?"},{"startTime":219.453,"endTime":223.753,"body":"In terms of getting that product"},{"startTime":219.453,"endTime":223.753,"body":"institutionalized within the customer"},{"startTime":223.753,"endTime":228.093,"body":"so they can actually get maximum benefit"},{"startTime":223.753,"endTime":228.093,"body":"by providing services of some kind."},{"startTime":228.143,"endTime":230.533,"body":"You know, the, the one that we talked"},{"startTime":228.143,"endTime":230.533,"body":"about at the networking event, we"},{"startTime":230.533,"endTime":234.773,"body":"were talking about this was the"},{"startTime":230.533,"endTime":234.773,"body":"buying computers from like IBM, for"},{"startTime":234.773,"endTime":238.533,"body":"example like back in the day or Dell"},{"startTime":234.773,"endTime":238.533,"body":"or whoever you buy computers from"},{"startTime":238.533,"endTime":240.213,"body":"a, from a specific organization."},{"startTime":240.543,"endTime":245.153,"body":"And then they would dispatch text to"},{"startTime":240.543,"endTime":245.153,"body":"install the computers at your local site,"},{"startTime":245.183,"endTime":249.543,"body":"assuming you didn't, maybe you didn't"},{"startTime":245.183,"endTime":249.543,"body":"have corporate it to install 150 new PCs,"},{"startTime":249.743,"endTime":253.383,"body":"the company that you bought them from the"},{"startTime":249.743,"endTime":253.383,"body":"product would be the PCs that you bought,"},{"startTime":253.653,"endTime":258.083,"body":"they go on your CapEx and you amortize"},{"startTime":253.653,"endTime":258.083,"body":"the PCs over a certain amount of time."},{"startTime":258.353,"endTime":261.203,"body":"However long you're going to use"},{"startTime":258.353,"endTime":261.203,"body":"that equipment until, until the value"},{"startTime":261.203,"endTime":264.323,"body":"goes to zero, and then you got to go"},{"startTime":261.203,"endTime":264.323,"body":"buy new corporate equipment, but the"},{"startTime":264.383,"endTime":269.243,"body":"company would send out text to install"},{"startTime":264.383,"endTime":269.243,"body":"it for you or to, maybe it's not"},{"startTime":269.243,"endTime":271.683,"body":"like Dell laptops or Dell desktops."},{"startTime":271.763,"endTime":273.713,"body":"It could be mini computers or mainframes."},{"startTime":273.713,"endTime":276.293,"body":"But it might, it might be something"},{"startTime":273.713,"endTime":276.293,"body":"way more complicated that now the"},{"startTime":276.293,"endTime":279.453,"body":"service team has to come out and"},{"startTime":276.293,"endTime":279.453,"body":"like help you understand the new"},{"startTime":279.463,"endTime":282.923,"body":"machinery and spin you up on the"},{"startTime":279.463,"endTime":282.923,"body":"new machinery and how to operate it."},{"startTime":283.073,"endTime":285.583,"body":"You know, yeah, networks,"},{"startTime":283.073,"endTime":285.583,"body":"which is a little, I mean they"},{"startTime":285.583,"endTime":286.653,"body":"were complex things, right?"},{"startTime":286.803,"endTime":288.683,"body":"So definitely that's a good example."},{"startTime":288.943,"endTime":291.473,"body":"Nobody actually ever got"},{"startTime":288.943,"endTime":291.473,"body":"fired for buying IBM."},{"startTime":291.793,"endTime":295.853,"body":"And over time, I seem to recall"},{"startTime":291.793,"endTime":295.853,"body":"IBM transitioned from being a"},{"startTime":295.853,"endTime":300.163,"body":"product company to a services"},{"startTime":295.853,"endTime":300.163,"body":"based company under Lou Gerstner."},{"startTime":300.313,"endTime":301.883,"body":"But anyway, let's come"},{"startTime":300.313,"endTime":301.883,"body":"back to that, right?"},{"startTime":301.883,"endTime":303.903,"body":"So if you've got a company that is."},{"startTime":304.108,"endTime":308.738,"body":"Dispatching you boxes of some kind that"},{"startTime":304.108,"endTime":308.738,"body":"you can touch and feel as products and"},{"startTime":308.738,"endTime":313.548,"body":"then they're also sending expertise To"},{"startTime":308.738,"endTime":313.548,"body":"basically help you use those things by"},{"startTime":313.548,"endTime":315.198,"body":"installing them, training you, et cetera."},{"startTime":315.208,"endTime":316.598,"body":"So those are services."},{"startTime":316.738,"endTime":321.228,"body":"And overall, you may hear the term"},{"startTime":316.738,"endTime":321.228,"body":"referred to as a solution, right?"},{"startTime":321.238,"endTime":323.278,"body":"Which is a product plus a service, right?"},{"startTime":323.448,"endTime":325.628,"body":"That's how we used to talk"},{"startTime":323.448,"endTime":325.628,"body":"about solutions, right?"},{"startTime":325.658,"endTime":326.428,"body":"Back in the day."},{"startTime":326.578,"endTime":329.708,"body":"It was a solution has a product"},{"startTime":326.578,"endTime":329.708,"body":"component, has a service"},{"startTime":329.708,"endTime":331.628,"body":"component, maybe multiple products."},{"startTime":331.788,"endTime":332.388,"body":"Yes, of course."},{"startTime":332.588,"endTime":335.698,"body":"A family of products, perhaps,"},{"startTime":332.588,"endTime":335.698,"body":"and services too, for that matter."},{"startTime":335.708,"endTime":337.248,"body":"You may have installation services."},{"startTime":337.248,"endTime":337.318,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":337.468,"endTime":339.698,"body":"You may have commissioning services."},{"startTime":339.898,"endTime":343.738,"body":"So these people coming after the"},{"startTime":339.898,"endTime":343.738,"body":"installers have gone, and then you would"},{"startTime":343.748,"endTime":348.598,"body":"have operations or operationalization"},{"startTime":343.748,"endTime":348.598,"body":"or support services, right?"},{"startTime":348.748,"endTime":350.428,"body":"So services can also run the gamut."},{"startTime":350.578,"endTime":355.658,"body":"So if you have that as offerings from"},{"startTime":350.578,"endTime":355.658,"body":"your own organization, what are you?"},{"startTime":355.708,"endTime":357.498,"body":"Are you, are you a services company?"},{"startTime":357.498,"endTime":358.378,"body":"Are you a product company?"},{"startTime":358.378,"endTime":359.648,"body":"Are you a solutions company?"},{"startTime":359.668,"endTime":360.078,"body":"You're both."},{"startTime":360.098,"endTime":360.488,"body":"You're both."},{"startTime":360.508,"endTime":363.078,"body":"Yeah, you're probably, well,  I'm"},{"startTime":360.508,"endTime":363.078,"body":"trying to paint the two swim lanes."},{"startTime":363.228,"endTime":367.318,"body":"Operating together synchronously,"},{"startTime":363.228,"endTime":367.318,"body":"operating together synergistically."},{"startTime":367.338,"endTime":367.788,"body":"There's one."},{"startTime":367.938,"endTime":368.508,"body":"Nice word."},{"startTime":368.568,"endTime":368.928,"body":"There's one."},{"startTime":368.928,"endTime":369.888,"body":"I haven't said on the podcast."},{"startTime":369.928,"endTime":372.008,"body":"Yeah, that's a good"},{"startTime":369.928,"endTime":372.008,"body":"nineties word right there."},{"startTime":372.018,"endTime":372.478,"body":"Synergy."},{"startTime":372.628,"endTime":376.428,"body":"They, they, they're, they're not silos"},{"startTime":372.628,"endTime":376.428,"body":"that are separate, which, which I will"},{"startTime":376.428,"endTime":379.878,"body":"present later in this podcast as a, as"},{"startTime":376.428,"endTime":379.878,"body":"a model and we get to management models."},{"startTime":380.018,"endTime":380.228,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":380.288,"endTime":382.538,"body":"But we're, we're, we're on"},{"startTime":380.288,"endTime":382.538,"body":"the differences category now."},{"startTime":382.538,"endTime":386.988,"body":"No, a big difference that I feel"},{"startTime":382.538,"endTime":386.988,"body":"pushes us into This whole feeling of"},{"startTime":386.998,"endTime":390.608,"body":"being unique is the revenue models."},{"startTime":390.728,"endTime":396.328,"body":"Like when I started this with an example"},{"startTime":390.728,"endTime":396.328,"body":"of the product only model of B2C."},{"startTime":396.478,"endTime":399.738,"body":"So we sell directly to consumer,"},{"startTime":396.478,"endTime":399.738,"body":"the consumer pays us a subscription"},{"startTime":399.738,"endTime":400.648,"body":"costs or something like that."},{"startTime":400.648,"endTime":404.048,"body":"Netflix, for example you know,"},{"startTime":400.648,"endTime":404.048,"body":"there's no service component,"},{"startTime":404.228,"endTime":406.408,"body":"like the service is the product."},{"startTime":406.558,"endTime":409.658,"body":"You pay a subscription costs,"},{"startTime":406.558,"endTime":409.658,"body":"you get access to the platform."},{"startTime":409.808,"endTime":412.068,"body":"Right, which some people might"},{"startTime":409.808,"endTime":412.068,"body":"listen to this and be like, wait"},{"startTime":412.068,"endTime":413.518,"body":"a minute, Netflix is a service."},{"startTime":413.778,"endTime":415.578,"body":"Actually, it's a platform"},{"startTime":413.778,"endTime":415.578,"body":"you can get access to."},{"startTime":415.758,"endTime":418.828,"body":"In the old days, Netflix had a"},{"startTime":415.758,"endTime":418.828,"body":"service where they shipped you DVDs."},{"startTime":418.868,"endTime":421.488,"body":"They did, and that was a service,"},{"startTime":418.868,"endTime":421.488,"body":"and they got rid of that service"},{"startTime":421.488,"endTime":423.768,"body":"because the revenue model, let's"},{"startTime":421.488,"endTime":423.768,"body":"talk about revenue model, because I"},{"startTime":423.778,"endTime":426.328,"body":"wanted to jump to scalability right"},{"startTime":423.778,"endTime":426.328,"body":"there with the Netflix example."},{"startTime":426.498,"endTime":429.228,"body":"Actually, you know what, no, let's"},{"startTime":426.498,"endTime":429.228,"body":"jump to, let's jump to scalability"},{"startTime":429.228,"endTime":431.218,"body":"because I feel we can hit scalability."},{"startTime":431.428,"endTime":434.528,"body":"In two seconds and jump back to"},{"startTime":431.428,"endTime":434.528,"body":"revenue model because the revenue"},{"startTime":434.528,"endTime":438.858,"body":"model of this, of the people engaged"},{"startTime":434.528,"endTime":438.858,"body":"in offering the service versus the"},{"startTime":438.858,"endTime":441.458,"body":"revenue model of the product product."},{"startTime":441.608,"endTime":442.998,"body":"Is infinitely scalable."},{"startTime":443.148,"endTime":446.658,"body":"You, you, you can say, I have this"},{"startTime":443.148,"endTime":446.658,"body":"platform and you know, as long as"},{"startTime":446.808,"endTime":449.468,"body":"obviously there's some technical"},{"startTime":446.808,"endTime":449.468,"body":"hurdles behind the scenes that the,"},{"startTime":449.808,"endTime":452.808,"body":"the, the product has to be self scaling."},{"startTime":452.958,"endTime":456.398,"body":"You need some technology, you"},{"startTime":452.958,"endTime":456.398,"body":"need some know how to do that."},{"startTime":456.548,"endTime":458.438,"body":"However should it be"},{"startTime":456.548,"endTime":458.438,"body":"implemented correctly?"},{"startTime":458.438,"endTime":459.768,"body":"The product is self scaling."},{"startTime":459.918,"endTime":464.738,"body":"Therefore you should be able to onboard"},{"startTime":459.918,"endTime":464.738,"body":"an infinite number of users to your quote."},{"startTime":464.888,"endTime":467.578,"body":"Service, which I really mean"},{"startTime":464.888,"endTime":467.578,"body":"product when I say service, right?"},{"startTime":467.578,"endTime":471.228,"body":"When I'm talking about Netflix, the"},{"startTime":467.578,"endTime":471.228,"body":"service of we're going to mail out DVDs."},{"startTime":471.378,"endTime":474.458,"body":"Now, everybody that mails out"},{"startTime":471.378,"endTime":474.458,"body":"a DVD, I mean, there's, there's"},{"startTime":474.688,"endTime":477.828,"body":"a person that stuffs it in an"},{"startTime":474.688,"endTime":477.828,"body":"envelope or an envelope depending."},{"startTime":478.088,"endTime":481.158,"body":"And if you say, well, Brian, we"},{"startTime":478.088,"endTime":481.158,"body":"can just have a machine, stuff"},{"startTime":481.168,"endTime":482.088,"body":"them in envelopes or whatever."},{"startTime":482.088,"endTime":482.358,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":482.358,"endTime":484.938,"body":"Well now you've got to maintain machines"},{"startTime":482.358,"endTime":484.938,"body":"and you got to have that people that"},{"startTime":484.938,"endTime":488.928,"body":"maintain, again, like the service just"},{"startTime":484.938,"endTime":488.928,"body":"got more complicated and more automated,"},{"startTime":488.928,"endTime":493.478,"body":"but you still, the service requires an"},{"startTime":488.928,"endTime":493.478,"body":"investment of capital to keep it running."},{"startTime":493.688,"endTime":494.798,"body":"There's an R and D cost."},{"startTime":494.808,"endTime":498.648,"body":"Now we're going to get into later and"},{"startTime":494.808,"endTime":498.648,"body":"a maintenance cost to improve your"},{"startTime":498.648,"endTime":502.758,"body":"service or, or you can just say, you"},{"startTime":498.648,"endTime":502.758,"body":"know what, it's not worth it to, to"},{"startTime":502.768,"endTime":506.408,"body":"burn all this money and to figure out"},{"startTime":502.768,"endTime":506.408,"body":"how to send out more DVDs or whatever."},{"startTime":506.458,"endTime":509.158,"body":"What happens when over two, three"},{"startTime":506.458,"endTime":509.158,"body":"years, there's more streaming"},{"startTime":509.308,"endTime":511.758,"body":"competitors and you're sending"},{"startTime":509.308,"endTime":511.758,"body":"out less and less and less CDs."},{"startTime":511.768,"endTime":514.288,"body":"So all these machines and all"},{"startTime":511.768,"endTime":514.288,"body":"these people and all these teams"},{"startTime":514.288,"endTime":516.458,"body":"and local regional areas dwindle."},{"startTime":516.608,"endTime":520.598,"body":"Now you gotta, what, you gotta"},{"startTime":516.608,"endTime":520.598,"body":"recut fire people, basically,"},{"startTime":520.608,"endTime":521.608,"body":"from your services wing?"},{"startTime":521.618,"endTime":522.018,"body":"Precisely."},{"startTime":522.048,"endTime":524.038,"body":"I mean, there's a lot of"},{"startTime":522.048,"endTime":524.038,"body":"sunk costs right there."},{"startTime":524.088,"endTime":524.588,"body":"That's terrible."},{"startTime":524.668,"endTime":529.108,"body":"The scalability is the, I mean,"},{"startTime":524.668,"endTime":529.108,"body":"that's the easiest to understand."},{"startTime":529.258,"endTime":533.228,"body":"Side of both of these conversations"},{"startTime":529.258,"endTime":533.228,"body":"of the, how are they different?"},{"startTime":533.268,"endTime":533.498,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":533.498,"endTime":537.118,"body":"Well, the product side can basically"},{"startTime":533.498,"endTime":537.118,"body":"scale infinitely or, or contract."},{"startTime":537.258,"endTime":537.538,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":537.588,"endTime":540.828,"body":"It's either, or you can cut features"},{"startTime":537.588,"endTime":540.828,"body":"left and right as people don't use them."},{"startTime":540.828,"endTime":544.058,"body":"And you're basically contracting your"},{"startTime":540.828,"endTime":544.058,"body":"software, making it easier to maintain."},{"startTime":544.058,"endTime":544.818,"body":"We don't talk about that."},{"startTime":544.818,"endTime":546.088,"body":"We should have a podcast on that one."},{"startTime":546.428,"endTime":550.188,"body":"MIT simplifying your software, basically"},{"startTime":546.428,"endTime":550.188,"body":"cutting features that don't get used,"},{"startTime":550.338,"endTime":555.378,"body":"simplifying your code, making it easier to"},{"startTime":550.338,"endTime":555.378,"body":"maintain simple simplification as an art."},{"startTime":555.528,"endTime":556.338,"body":"In software development."},{"startTime":556.338,"endTime":557.699,"body":"That could be the podcast that's on."},{"startTime":557.704,"endTime":559.738,"body":"It's a great podcast on,"},{"startTime":557.704,"endTime":559.738,"body":"on tech debt as well."},{"startTime":559.828,"endTime":560.638,"body":"That's a great podcast."},{"startTime":560.638,"endTime":560.698,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":561.038,"endTime":564.218,"body":"But but yes, the scalability"},{"startTime":561.038,"endTime":564.218,"body":"thing, scalability of services"},{"startTime":564.398,"endTime":568.168,"body":"versus the scalability of the"},{"startTime":564.398,"endTime":568.168,"body":"product completely pretty apparent."},{"startTime":568.228,"endTime":570.358,"body":"We don't need to spend a lot of"},{"startTime":568.228,"endTime":570.358,"body":"time on that revenue, though."},{"startTime":570.508,"endTime":573.238,"body":"Again, the B2C product, the revenue is."},{"startTime":573.388,"endTime":574.928,"body":"Like that's the Netflix model."},{"startTime":575.078,"endTime":577.698,"body":"People pay Netflix, they"},{"startTime":575.078,"endTime":577.698,"body":"get access to the platform."},{"startTime":577.808,"endTime":581.558,"body":"On the platform, they can watch any"},{"startTime":577.808,"endTime":581.558,"body":"movie, TV show, whatever they want, right?"},{"startTime":581.708,"endTime":583.838,"body":"Services model, completely different."},{"startTime":583.988,"endTime":585.358,"body":"Now you have billable hours."},{"startTime":585.508,"endTime":588.208,"body":"Now you have project based fees."},{"startTime":588.208,"endTime":590.958,"body":"Like we were talking about, oh,"},{"startTime":588.208,"endTime":590.958,"body":"I'm gonna send a couple techs"},{"startTime":590.988,"endTime":592.748,"body":"out to install 150 laptops."},{"startTime":592.898,"endTime":595.258,"body":"Or 150 desktops at your organization."},{"startTime":595.448,"endTime":599.828,"body":"Like I know how long it normally"},{"startTime":595.448,"endTime":599.828,"body":"takes to install 150 laptops"},{"startTime":599.828,"endTime":600.928,"body":"or desktops or whatever."},{"startTime":601.158,"endTime":604.628,"body":"Like now you're talking"},{"startTime":601.158,"endTime":604.628,"body":"about man hours, right?"},{"startTime":604.738,"endTime":606.518,"body":"How many team sizes you have to have?"},{"startTime":606.518,"endTime":608.418,"body":"How many consultants you keep on staff?"},{"startTime":608.663,"endTime":612.213,"body":"Whatever the labor costs, it's"},{"startTime":608.663,"endTime":612.213,"body":"a completely different model."},{"startTime":612.303,"endTime":616.403,"body":"Now, whereas in the software, in the,"},{"startTime":612.303,"endTime":616.403,"body":"in the software development tech model"},{"startTime":616.553,"endTime":620.103,"body":"product, the product management model"},{"startTime":616.553,"endTime":620.103,"body":"that I, that I'm used to I know my"},{"startTime":620.103,"endTime":622.173,"body":"team is like, I've got six engineers."},{"startTime":622.423,"endTime":623.593,"body":"They cost this much money."},{"startTime":623.753,"endTime":624.983,"body":"This is a run rate of my team."},{"startTime":625.073,"endTime":627.353,"body":"This is how much I burn every"},{"startTime":625.073,"endTime":627.353,"body":"this is how much my profit is."},{"startTime":627.633,"endTime":629.713,"body":"My P and L is pretty static."},{"startTime":629.863,"endTime":634.783,"body":"You know, and I'm just looking for those"},{"startTime":629.863,"endTime":634.783,"body":"dips and spikes that indicate we something"},{"startTime":634.913,"endTime":638.123,"body":"isn't going right, or something's"},{"startTime":634.913,"endTime":638.123,"body":"going really, really right or whatever."},{"startTime":638.273,"endTime":641.413,"body":"It's, I think it's this is probably"},{"startTime":638.273,"endTime":641.413,"body":"where they're most starkly different."},{"startTime":641.563,"endTime":641.813,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":641.813,"endTime":645.273,"body":"I think on the labor side of things,"},{"startTime":641.813,"endTime":645.273,"body":"your challenges are cause you're"},{"startTime":645.323,"endTime":646.683,"body":"dealing with people here, right?"},{"startTime":646.973,"endTime":649.703,"body":"So you have labor shortages, people"},{"startTime":646.973,"endTime":649.703,"body":"leave all of these sorts of things."},{"startTime":649.713,"endTime":652.183,"body":"New people come, you got to train"},{"startTime":649.713,"endTime":652.183,"body":"them up before they can go install"},{"startTime":652.183,"endTime":654.093,"body":"these laptops or desktops or whatever."},{"startTime":654.243,"endTime":659.093,"body":"So, so the scalability is less"},{"startTime":654.243,"endTime":659.093,"body":"than linear, smooth, right?"},{"startTime":659.123,"endTime":660.643,"body":"When you're talking about ramping up."},{"startTime":660.643,"endTime":660.722,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":660.872,"endTime":663.082,"body":"To the next level with"},{"startTime":660.872,"endTime":663.082,"body":"services, I'm saying."},{"startTime":663.082,"endTime":666.392,"body":"This is where smart companies are"},{"startTime":663.082,"endTime":666.392,"body":"looking at self service, right?"},{"startTime":666.392,"endTime":670.632,"body":"So you're selling the product and then"},{"startTime":666.392,"endTime":670.632,"body":"you're enclosing with it some things."},{"startTime":670.832,"endTime":673.732,"body":"You remember buying laptops that"},{"startTime":670.832,"endTime":673.732,"body":"came with the readme guide, a whole"},{"startTime":673.732,"endTime":675.392,"body":"bunch of bloatware and whatever else."},{"startTime":675.542,"endTime":676.902,"body":"People can help themselves."},{"startTime":677.052,"endTime":678.282,"body":"So you don't have to do that."},{"startTime":678.432,"endTime":679.192,"body":"Services."},{"startTime":679.232,"endTime":679.732,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":679.812,"endTime":680.502,"body":"Inclusion, right?"},{"startTime":680.682,"endTime":684.142,"body":"I recall a company that I was at"},{"startTime":680.682,"endTime":684.142,"body":"launching a mobile product for"},{"startTime":684.142,"endTime":688.012,"body":"the first time there was a, it"},{"startTime":684.142,"endTime":688.012,"body":"was a company's foray into B to C."},{"startTime":688.332,"endTime":692.152,"body":"And I remember the company just being"},{"startTime":688.332,"endTime":692.152,"body":"completely over their heads because"},{"startTime":692.252,"endTime":693.742,"body":"people had problems with the software."},{"startTime":693.742,"endTime":697.382,"body":"The software was not as user friendly"},{"startTime":693.742,"endTime":697.382,"body":"as a company expected it to be."},{"startTime":697.532,"endTime":701.612,"body":"And there was like we had to implement"},{"startTime":697.532,"endTime":701.612,"body":"features that allowed self service."},{"startTime":701.612,"endTime":701.732,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":701.882,"endTime":705.372,"body":"Very quickly as a product team,"},{"startTime":701.882,"endTime":705.372,"body":"because the team that maintained"},{"startTime":705.372,"endTime":707.682,"body":"the service was just overwhelmed."},{"startTime":707.832,"endTime":710.782,"body":"They were just overwhelmed"},{"startTime":707.832,"endTime":710.782,"body":"with the customer response."},{"startTime":710.932,"endTime":713.792,"body":"So we had to come up with some sort"},{"startTime":710.932,"endTime":713.792,"body":"of way to take the weight off of"},{"startTime":713.792,"endTime":717.002,"body":"that, that piece of the organization"},{"startTime":713.792,"endTime":717.002,"body":"because we had no self service at"},{"startTime":717.002,"endTime":718.722,"body":"all when we launched the application."},{"startTime":718.872,"endTime":720.652,"body":"You know, self service"},{"startTime":718.872,"endTime":720.652,"body":"support type of stuff."},{"startTime":720.692,"endTime":721.732,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":721.882,"endTime":725.302,"body":"Everything we're talking about gets"},{"startTime":721.882,"endTime":725.302,"body":"insanely more complex if we're talking"},{"startTime":725.312,"endTime":726.882,"body":"about B2B to B2C type of environment."},{"startTime":727.132,"endTime":727.752,"body":"Yeah, it does."},{"startTime":727.752,"endTime":731.972,"body":"Another big thing that should be easy"},{"startTime":727.752,"endTime":731.972,"body":"to communicate here is the relationship"},{"startTime":731.972,"endTime":736.692,"body":"with the customer is different"},{"startTime":731.972,"endTime":736.692,"body":"between services and products, again,"},{"startTime":736.692,"endTime":740.682,"body":"the main B2C product that I keep"},{"startTime":736.692,"endTime":740.682,"body":"talking about, keep going back to."},{"startTime":740.832,"endTime":742.592,"body":"It's a very transactional."},{"startTime":742.742,"endTime":746.202,"body":"Relationship with customer you do your"},{"startTime":742.742,"endTime":746.202,"body":"thing and if you can't get through"},{"startTime":746.202,"endTime":749.782,"body":"your thing, then I need to help you"},{"startTime":746.202,"endTime":749.782,"body":"or whatever, or I need to figure"},{"startTime":749.782,"endTime":752.902,"body":"out how to make that thing easier"},{"startTime":749.782,"endTime":752.902,"body":"that, that, that transaction easier."},{"startTime":753.052,"endTime":754.702,"body":"And then we're off to the races."},{"startTime":754.702,"endTime":755.862,"body":"You can get through the thing yourself."},{"startTime":755.862,"endTime":757.052,"body":"You don't need anybody's help."},{"startTime":757.202,"endTime":757.462,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":757.492,"endTime":761.232,"body":"Whereas on the service side"},{"startTime":757.492,"endTime":761.232,"body":"it's, it's longer relationships."},{"startTime":761.232,"endTime":763.942,"body":"I really need to get to"},{"startTime":761.232,"endTime":763.942,"body":"know you and what you want."},{"startTime":764.092,"endTime":764.802,"body":"And you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":764.802,"endTime":767.792,"body":"I'm, I'm trying to, there's a personal"},{"startTime":764.802,"endTime":767.792,"body":"touch basically is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":767.852,"endTime":769.012,"body":"Yeah, absolutely true."},{"startTime":769.332,"endTime":774.292,"body":"Longer as well as because services involve"},{"startTime":769.332,"endTime":774.292,"body":"that experience for the customer, you"},{"startTime":774.292,"endTime":778.062,"body":"got to be careful as a provider to make"},{"startTime":774.292,"endTime":778.062,"body":"sure that the customer is pretty happy"},{"startTime":778.062,"endTime":779.692,"body":"with the experience they're getting."},{"startTime":780.012,"endTime":782.832,"body":"It's no longer enough to just come"},{"startTime":780.012,"endTime":782.832,"body":"in and check the boxes, right?"},{"startTime":782.892,"endTime":783.992,"body":"Because that's your."},{"startTime":787.227,"endTime":791.867,"body":"I think of a company that I was at"},{"startTime":787.227,"endTime":791.867,"body":"one time that did all of their IT"},{"startTime":792.007,"endTime":797.057,"body":"projects, quote projects, with contracted"},{"startTime":792.007,"endTime":797.057,"body":"offshore labor , they basically,"},{"startTime":797.057,"endTime":799.407,"body":"they contracted firms to do all the"},{"startTime":797.057,"endTime":799.407,"body":"software development, basically."},{"startTime":799.607,"endTime":803.277,"body":"And they had a cadre of project"},{"startTime":799.607,"endTime":803.277,"body":"managers that would maintain"},{"startTime":803.287,"endTime":805.117,"body":"relationships with these vendors."},{"startTime":805.157,"endTime":807.877,"body":"So basically they could go to"},{"startTime":805.157,"endTime":807.877,"body":"the vendor and quickly spin up a"},{"startTime":807.877,"endTime":810.707,"body":"project when they were ready with"},{"startTime":807.877,"endTime":810.707,"body":"funding and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":810.967,"endTime":814.097,"body":"I'm not like, I'm not trying to"},{"startTime":810.967,"endTime":814.097,"body":"critique the, the, the model that"},{"startTime":814.097,"endTime":815.207,"body":"they had, like it worked for them."},{"startTime":815.357,"endTime":819.447,"body":"But those maintaining those long term"},{"startTime":815.357,"endTime":819.447,"body":"relationships with all the vendors"},{"startTime":819.627,"endTime":822.557,"body":"Yeah, I think that that model"},{"startTime":819.627,"endTime":822.557,"body":"is pretty old, actually, right?"},{"startTime":822.567,"endTime":824.737,"body":"That's been going on for quite some time."},{"startTime":824.887,"endTime":828.637,"body":"And with the technology and everything"},{"startTime":824.887,"endTime":828.637,"body":"now, it's different because it"},{"startTime":828.637,"endTime":831.467,"body":"used to be that these vendors"},{"startTime":828.637,"endTime":831.467,"body":"would have to send bodies on site."},{"startTime":831.617,"endTime":833.857,"body":"to the company that's contracting them."},{"startTime":833.957,"endTime":835.677,"body":"And now people are just working remotely."},{"startTime":835.827,"endTime":837.887,"body":"And COVID had a lot to"},{"startTime":835.827,"endTime":837.887,"body":"do with it too, but yeah."},{"startTime":838.037,"endTime":841.347,"body":"So that is an interesting model"},{"startTime":838.037,"endTime":841.347,"body":"because here what happens is"},{"startTime":841.497,"endTime":846.167,"body":"you're basically hiring bodies"},{"startTime":841.497,"endTime":846.167,"body":"to do the work of the project."},{"startTime":846.377,"endTime":851.017,"body":"And when that project is done, you spin"},{"startTime":846.377,"endTime":851.017,"body":"down that team and you know, either"},{"startTime":851.017,"endTime":853.017,"body":"they get redeployed elsewhere or."},{"startTime":853.167,"endTime":854.947,"body":"They don't, but they're"},{"startTime":853.167,"endTime":854.947,"body":"not on the team anymore."},{"startTime":855.097,"endTime":859.257,"body":"And so the downside, if you're in a"},{"startTime":855.097,"endTime":859.257,"body":"solutions kind of situation is the"},{"startTime":859.257,"endTime":863.527,"body":"customer doesn't have continuity"},{"startTime":859.257,"endTime":863.527,"body":"of the service and therefore"},{"startTime":863.567,"endTime":865.327,"body":"there's a corresponding gap, right?"},{"startTime":865.427,"endTime":868.367,"body":"You may have some ops people"},{"startTime":865.427,"endTime":868.367,"body":"that pick up the slack, right?"},{"startTime":868.367,"endTime":871.837,"body":"But those people are typically"},{"startTime":868.367,"endTime":871.837,"body":"boarding later in the game."},{"startTime":872.127,"endTime":874.547,"body":"So they don't really have the"},{"startTime":872.127,"endTime":874.547,"body":"relationship to start with."},{"startTime":874.597,"endTime":878.657,"body":"They also may not have all of the"},{"startTime":874.597,"endTime":878.657,"body":"experience they need of and knowledge of"},{"startTime":878.657,"endTime":880.497,"body":"the product that they're now supporting."},{"startTime":880.697,"endTime":882.737,"body":"we often discuss and debate."},{"startTime":882.887,"endTime":888.007,"body":"Organizational styles and management"},{"startTime":882.887,"endTime":888.007,"body":"styles and org design on the podcast."},{"startTime":888.227,"endTime":892.117,"body":"I think now's a good time to hop over to"},{"startTime":888.227,"endTime":892.117,"body":"talk about how these companies that have"},{"startTime":892.117,"endTime":895.737,"body":"both the services component and a product"},{"startTime":892.117,"endTime":895.737,"body":"component, how they kind of manage this."},{"startTime":895.887,"endTime":896.167,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":896.167,"endTime":900.537,"body":"And the, the, the first thing that I've"},{"startTime":896.167,"endTime":900.537,"body":"seen, actually, I think the majority that"},{"startTime":900.537,"endTime":905.292,"body":"I've seen is they create, silos, like the"},{"startTime":900.537,"endTime":905.292,"body":"product org is over here and the services"},{"startTime":905.292,"endTime":909.612,"body":"org is here and they don't really share"},{"startTime":905.292,"endTime":909.612,"body":"people between the two is just all the"},{"startTime":909.612,"endTime":912.192,"body":"services that happen over here and all"},{"startTime":909.612,"endTime":912.192,"body":"the products and stuff happens over here."},{"startTime":912.342,"endTime":913.392,"body":"That's pretty much accurate."},{"startTime":913.482,"endTime":916.562,"body":"Most of them are like that and"},{"startTime":913.482,"endTime":916.562,"body":"never, never the twain shall meet."},{"startTime":916.572,"endTime":919.462,"body":"So you've got all these product people"},{"startTime":916.572,"endTime":919.462,"body":"that have product knowledge, that's"},{"startTime":919.472,"endTime":921.422,"body":"their baby and it's and that's great."},{"startTime":921.772,"endTime":925.482,"body":"And then you have services people that"},{"startTime":921.772,"endTime":925.482,"body":"hopefully are trained in the use of the"},{"startTime":925.482,"endTime":927.932,"body":"product, but yeah, and you have churn."},{"startTime":928.082,"endTime":931.892,"body":"So these people don't have in quotes,"},{"startTime":928.082,"endTime":931.892,"body":"they don't have ownership, right?"},{"startTime":932.232,"endTime":935.062,"body":"They're there to basically"},{"startTime":932.232,"endTime":935.062,"body":"do a job and that's it."},{"startTime":935.212,"endTime":937.612,"body":"Well, they, they'll onboard and"},{"startTime":935.212,"endTime":937.612,"body":"they'll get trained in the product."},{"startTime":937.762,"endTime":938.162,"body":"product."},{"startTime":938.162,"endTime":940.852,"body":"Well, when I say product, we're"},{"startTime":938.162,"endTime":940.852,"body":"not bashing on these organizations."},{"startTime":940.852,"endTime":943.982,"body":"They, they, they, they're great"},{"startTime":940.852,"endTime":943.982,"body":"examples of products and services."},{"startTime":943.982,"endTime":947.602,"body":"So we're not gonna, we're not really going"},{"startTime":943.982,"endTime":947.602,"body":"to critique any of these organizations,"},{"startTime":947.602,"endTime":950.572,"body":"but we'll look, I only bring it up because"},{"startTime":947.602,"endTime":950.572,"body":"our working agreement I mean it's kind of"},{"startTime":950.572,"endTime":953.422,"body":"goes against the working agreement, but"},{"startTime":950.572,"endTime":953.422,"body":"we're going to give some examples later"},{"startTime":953.422,"endTime":956.442,"body":"in the podcast, but organizations like"},{"startTime":953.422,"endTime":956.442,"body":"this that have that have both a services"},{"startTime":956.442,"endTime":958.772,"body":"side and a product side pretty clearly."},{"startTime":958.922,"endTime":963.082,"body":"But The separate product and service"},{"startTime":958.922,"endTime":963.082,"body":"unit, like I think of like a company that"},{"startTime":963.132,"endTime":966.992,"body":"we talk about when we were brainstorming"},{"startTime":963.132,"endTime":966.992,"body":"for types of companies earlier before"},{"startTime":966.992,"endTime":970.792,"body":"the podcast started, we talked about car"},{"startTime":966.992,"endTime":970.792,"body":"dealerships, the relationships of car"},{"startTime":970.792,"endTime":973.222,"body":"dealerships to the car manufacturers."},{"startTime":973.222,"endTime":977.782,"body":"For example, if you're, if you're a BMW"},{"startTime":973.222,"endTime":977.782,"body":"and you manufacture your cars, like the,"},{"startTime":977.812,"endTime":982.602,"body":"the, the actual dealership selling the"},{"startTime":977.812,"endTime":982.602,"body":"car and selling services around the car."},{"startTime":982.752,"endTime":985.962,"body":"The dealerships buy the car from BMW."},{"startTime":986.112,"endTime":990.762,"body":"They buy the car from the, from the"},{"startTime":986.112,"endTime":990.762,"body":"corporate head, main entity of BMW or"},{"startTime":990.762,"endTime":993.772,"body":"whatever, BMW America, whoever they"},{"startTime":990.762,"endTime":993.772,"body":"bought a car from, basically they buy"},{"startTime":993.772,"endTime":998.042,"body":"the car from BMW and then the, and"},{"startTime":993.772,"endTime":998.042,"body":"then the service provider, which is"},{"startTime":998.042,"endTime":1002.562,"body":"the dealership is reselling the car"},{"startTime":998.042,"endTime":1002.562,"body":"that they got from BMW, basically."},{"startTime":1002.852,"endTime":1006.462,"body":"I know it's not really truly, but"},{"startTime":1002.852,"endTime":1006.462,"body":"they're also offering services on that"},{"startTime":1006.462,"endTime":1008.872,"body":"car that they sell to you, the user."},{"startTime":1009.022,"endTime":1012.812,"body":"So they're providing like the"},{"startTime":1009.022,"endTime":1012.812,"body":"product that they're providing is"},{"startTime":1012.822,"endTime":1014.342,"body":"provided by their product provider."},{"startTime":1014.572,"endTime":1017.112,"body":"And like, this is a great example of"},{"startTime":1014.572,"endTime":1017.112,"body":"the silos that I was talking about."},{"startTime":1017.262,"endTime":1022.102,"body":"The individual dealer, how much input"},{"startTime":1017.262,"endTime":1022.102,"body":"do they get into the new models of cars,"},{"startTime":1022.292,"endTime":1027.832,"body":"the types of cars, user preference,"},{"startTime":1022.292,"endTime":1027.832,"body":"what types of trends that users are"},{"startTime":1027.912,"endTime":1029.352,"body":"gravitating towards, stuff like that."},{"startTime":1029.502,"endTime":1032.342,"body":"Some of that, some of that feedback"},{"startTime":1029.502,"endTime":1032.342,"body":"probably filters, I mean, they probably"},{"startTime":1032.342,"endTime":1037.742,"body":"have mechanisms that filter that feedback"},{"startTime":1032.342,"endTime":1037.742,"body":"back up to corporate BMW, for example."},{"startTime":1038.042,"endTime":1039.082,"body":"Headquarters, I guess."},{"startTime":1039.412,"endTime":1042.662,"body":"But I, I just don't know"},{"startTime":1039.412,"endTime":1042.662,"body":"what, what that looks."},{"startTime":1042.662,"endTime":1044.542,"body":"I don't know anything"},{"startTime":1042.662,"endTime":1044.542,"body":"about the car business."},{"startTime":1044.542,"endTime":1044.732,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1044.732,"endTime":1048.862,"body":"But I like what that looks like,"},{"startTime":1044.732,"endTime":1048.862,"body":"how much pure feedback gets directly"},{"startTime":1048.882,"endTime":1052.262,"body":"up, how much just comes from"},{"startTime":1048.882,"endTime":1052.262,"body":"metrics from the dealership and gets"},{"startTime":1052.272,"endTime":1055.522,"body":"passed up or does it get filtered"},{"startTime":1052.272,"endTime":1055.522,"body":"first, I have a million questions."},{"startTime":1055.672,"endTime":1058.992,"body":"Yeah, I mean, not a lot of there's"},{"startTime":1055.672,"endTime":1058.992,"body":"not a lot of feedback on the"},{"startTime":1058.992,"endTime":1061.502,"body":"direction of the product necessarily."},{"startTime":1061.542,"endTime":1064.372,"body":"There's probably quite a bit of"},{"startTime":1061.542,"endTime":1064.372,"body":"feedback on the quality of it."},{"startTime":1064.522,"endTime":1066.222,"body":"The customer's experiences, right?"},{"startTime":1066.402,"endTime":1070.162,"body":"They look at the top 10 reasons"},{"startTime":1066.402,"endTime":1070.162,"body":"why, or top X reasons why."},{"startTime":1070.312,"endTime":1073.942,"body":"Customers are bringing stuff back within"},{"startTime":1070.312,"endTime":1073.942,"body":"the warranty period, things like that."},{"startTime":1074.132,"endTime":1075.242,"body":"So that can improve the product."},{"startTime":1075.302,"endTime":1079.262,"body":"But as far as feedback towards"},{"startTime":1075.302,"endTime":1079.262,"body":"new product direction, I don't"},{"startTime":1079.272,"endTime":1080.362,"body":"know if there's a whole lot."},{"startTime":1080.392,"endTime":1081.262,"body":"That's very interesting."},{"startTime":1081.272,"endTime":1084.962,"body":"So, so the service provider is"},{"startTime":1081.272,"endTime":1084.962,"body":"gathering metrics and statistics."},{"startTime":1085.112,"endTime":1089.542,"body":"Off of the things that they do and"},{"startTime":1085.112,"endTime":1089.542,"body":"funneling that back to the product,"},{"startTime":1089.892,"endTime":1090.972,"body":"basically the product manager."},{"startTime":1090.972,"endTime":1092.872,"body":"Let's just pretend this is"},{"startTime":1090.972,"endTime":1092.872,"body":"a tech company for a second."},{"startTime":1093.022,"endTime":1098.082,"body":"The, the service providers for different"},{"startTime":1093.022,"endTime":1098.082,"body":"like this would be like the localities"},{"startTime":1098.082,"endTime":1099.272,"body":"would be like different customers."},{"startTime":1099.532,"endTime":1102.722,"body":"You know, you'd have your Denver"},{"startTime":1099.532,"endTime":1102.722,"body":"branch and your Tampa branch and your"},{"startTime":1102.722,"endTime":1104.356,"body":"Philadelphia branch or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":1104.356,"endTime":1108.236,"body":"I'm sure they have hundreds"},{"startTime":1104.356,"endTime":1108.236,"body":"and hundreds of dealerships"},{"startTime":1108.386,"endTime":1109.406,"body":"for this particular car brand."},{"startTime":1109.556,"endTime":1110.986,"body":"But they would all be funneling."},{"startTime":1111.136,"endTime":1115.956,"body":"Information that may be local to them,"},{"startTime":1111.136,"endTime":1115.956,"body":"some branch in Connecticut or wherever,"},{"startTime":1115.966,"endTime":1119.036,"body":"or in New York or wherever, somewhere"},{"startTime":1115.966,"endTime":1119.036,"body":"they salt the roads, I don't know"},{"startTime":1119.036,"endTime":1121.576,"body":"where they salt the roads anymore,"},{"startTime":1119.036,"endTime":1121.576,"body":"pretty much everywhere up there, they"},{"startTime":1121.576,"endTime":1124.386,"body":"might, they, they, they would have"},{"startTime":1121.576,"endTime":1124.386,"body":"concerns that they're filtering back"},{"startTime":1124.406,"endTime":1128.326,"body":"to BMW headquarters about like, Oh,"},{"startTime":1124.406,"endTime":1128.326,"body":"the undercarriage of the car and how"},{"startTime":1128.326,"endTime":1133.236,"body":"it performs in these slick roads after"},{"startTime":1128.326,"endTime":1133.236,"body":"snow or whatever, that the people in the"},{"startTime":1133.396,"endTime":1135.393,"body":"south in Texas or in Florida or whatever."},{"startTime":1135.393,"endTime":1135.581,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1135.731,"endTime":1137.301,"body":"You would never get"},{"startTime":1135.731,"endTime":1137.301,"body":"that feedback from them."},{"startTime":1137.451,"endTime":1138.461,"body":"You're absolutely right."},{"startTime":1138.461,"endTime":1142.781,"body":"So is, is corporate taking the"},{"startTime":1138.461,"endTime":1142.781,"body":"complaints is the service providers"},{"startTime":1142.781,"endTime":1146.481,"body":"are hearing on the ground and the"},{"startTime":1142.781,"endTime":1146.481,"body":"problems that they're detecting."},{"startTime":1146.631,"endTime":1146.961,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1147.111,"endTime":1149.331,"body":"Again, assuming they're"},{"startTime":1147.111,"endTime":1149.331,"body":"aggregating all their reports."},{"startTime":1149.331,"endTime":1150.291,"body":"I guess that's an assumption."},{"startTime":1150.441,"endTime":1152.561,"body":"Assuming that their systems"},{"startTime":1150.441,"endTime":1152.561,"body":"all feed into one place."},{"startTime":1152.711,"endTime":1153.191,"body":"Oh my God."},{"startTime":1153.341,"endTime":1156.021,"body":"And go back up to corporate"},{"startTime":1153.341,"endTime":1156.021,"body":"logical, sane manner."},{"startTime":1156.181,"endTime":1160.411,"body":"is product quote product, which"},{"startTime":1156.181,"endTime":1160.411,"body":"is corporate in this in, in this,"},{"startTime":1160.471,"endTime":1164.841,"body":"in this example, are they actually"},{"startTime":1160.471,"endTime":1164.841,"body":"using the feedback to determine"},{"startTime":1164.841,"endTime":1168.281,"body":"their roadmap and change their"},{"startTime":1164.841,"endTime":1168.281,"body":"ideas and test things and whatnot?"},{"startTime":1168.431,"endTime":1172.091,"body":"I think they, they probably are"},{"startTime":1168.431,"endTime":1172.091,"body":"looking at the feedback pretty closely."},{"startTime":1172.241,"endTime":1176.061,"body":"I have visions of people in those circular"},{"startTime":1172.241,"endTime":1176.061,"body":"towers in Munich getting together and"},{"startTime":1176.061,"endTime":1178.261,"body":"saying, The undercarriages are rusting."},{"startTime":1178.351,"endTime":1179.921,"body":"So how are we going to fix that?"},{"startTime":1180.071,"endTime":1184.091,"body":"Well, we will sell them the spray"},{"startTime":1180.071,"endTime":1184.091,"body":"that they put on underneath for"},{"startTime":1184.241,"endTime":1186.061,"body":"a thousand dollars, for example."},{"startTime":1186.201,"endTime":1188.591,"body":"So I'm sure they're looking at feedback."},{"startTime":1188.651,"endTime":1192.561,"body":"It's, it's up to them how much of that"},{"startTime":1188.651,"endTime":1192.561,"body":"they incorporate, because he's coming from"},{"startTime":1192.711,"endTime":1194.811,"body":"individual areas, like you said, right?"},{"startTime":1194.861,"endTime":1196.014,"body":"Well, what what are the models?"},{"startTime":1196.034,"endTime":1199.204,"body":"So I brought this up because this is"},{"startTime":1196.034,"endTime":1199.204,"body":"a perfect example of the two models"},{"startTime":1199.204,"endTime":1200.954,"body":"is there's a silo for the product."},{"startTime":1201.104,"endTime":1205.344,"body":"There's a silo for the services and they"},{"startTime":1201.104,"endTime":1205.344,"body":"kind of have to it like this whole thing"},{"startTime":1205.354,"endTime":1208.504,"body":"breaks down if they don't talk to each"},{"startTime":1205.354,"endTime":1208.504,"body":"other Absolutely, right because some"},{"startTime":1208.514,"endTime":1215.314,"body":"dealership in Some place in Alabama or"},{"startTime":1208.514,"endTime":1215.314,"body":"wherever in Texas does what they say?"},{"startTime":1215.474,"endTime":1219.434,"body":"Really get back to corporate to the"},{"startTime":1215.474,"endTime":1219.434,"body":"product manager that makes a decision."},{"startTime":1219.434,"endTime":1219.894,"body":"You know what?"},{"startTime":1220.044,"endTime":1224.104,"body":"That complaint we're gonna solve that"},{"startTime":1220.044,"endTime":1224.104,"body":"in the next version of the product,"},{"startTime":1224.414,"endTime":1227.644,"body":"somebody really has to be paying"},{"startTime":1224.414,"endTime":1227.644,"body":"attention to the data and really doing"},{"startTime":1227.644,"endTime":1231.944,"body":"a good job in the silos for something"},{"startTime":1227.644,"endTime":1231.944,"body":"very specific jump from silo to silo."},{"startTime":1231.964,"endTime":1236.234,"body":"Now, if it's like a very broad"},{"startTime":1231.964,"endTime":1236.234,"body":"sweeping problem, sure 90 percent"},{"startTime":1236.254,"endTime":1240.504,"body":"of dealerships are saying that the"},{"startTime":1236.254,"endTime":1240.504,"body":"alignment becomes a problem over a"},{"startTime":1240.504,"endTime":1241.954,"body":"certain mileage or something like that."},{"startTime":1241.954,"endTime":1244.234,"body":"Maybe we should build strong"},{"startTime":1241.954,"endTime":1244.234,"body":"components or whatever."},{"startTime":1244.534,"endTime":1247.904,"body":"The other thing, a silo model, like"},{"startTime":1244.534,"endTime":1247.904,"body":"you have like a chief product officer"},{"startTime":1248.074,"endTime":1251.804,"body":"and a, and a chief services officer,"},{"startTime":1248.074,"endTime":1251.804,"body":"they wouldn't be called the chief"},{"startTime":1251.804,"endTime":1256.064,"body":"services officer, but it would be"},{"startTime":1251.804,"endTime":1256.064,"body":"like the chief of Customer experience,"},{"startTime":1256.074,"endTime":1257.374,"body":"something, yeah, something like that."},{"startTime":1257.624,"endTime":1259.774,"body":"And I'm less, I'm less interested"},{"startTime":1257.624,"endTime":1259.774,"body":"in talking about that one."},{"startTime":1259.774,"endTime":1264.134,"body":"And I'm more interested in talking"},{"startTime":1259.774,"endTime":1264.134,"body":"about like the matrix structure where"},{"startTime":1264.324,"endTime":1269.214,"body":"you're, you're people delivering a"},{"startTime":1264.324,"endTime":1269.214,"body":"product line, like pretend, pretend for"},{"startTime":1269.214,"endTime":1275.144,"body":"a second that BMW had, they didn't have"},{"startTime":1269.214,"endTime":1275.144,"body":"like your dealerships and your corporate"},{"startTime":1275.144,"endTime":1276.844,"body":"product that just produce the cars."},{"startTime":1276.844,"endTime":1277.744,"body":"And they didn't talk to each other."},{"startTime":1277.744,"endTime":1278.864,"body":"Pretend they had like."},{"startTime":1279.014,"endTime":1284.984,"body":"Matrix structures where some service"},{"startTime":1279.014,"endTime":1284.984,"body":"providers and some car line manufacturing"},{"startTime":1285.044,"endTime":1289.944,"body":"professionals and like, like they were"},{"startTime":1285.044,"endTime":1289.944,"body":"all part of one team somehow, where the"},{"startTime":1289.944,"endTime":1296.064,"body":"design and production and maintenance of"},{"startTime":1289.944,"endTime":1296.064,"body":"a particular car line we're done in a,"},{"startTime":1296.114,"endTime":1299.894,"body":"in a horizontal altogether or I guess a"},{"startTime":1296.114,"endTime":1299.894,"body":"vertical, I don't know how you look at it."},{"startTime":1299.904,"endTime":1301.474,"body":"So I'm kind of turning it this way."},{"startTime":1301.624,"endTime":1304.154,"body":"Like they were all done by one"},{"startTime":1301.624,"endTime":1304.154,"body":"team is like the same people that"},{"startTime":1304.154,"endTime":1308.054,"body":"designed and created the car also"},{"startTime":1304.154,"endTime":1308.054,"body":"are tracking that particular model."},{"startTime":1308.204,"endTime":1310.924,"body":"To see how things downstream,"},{"startTime":1308.204,"endTime":1310.924,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1310.924,"endTime":1314.744,"body":"Like how would a matrix kind"},{"startTime":1310.924,"endTime":1314.744,"body":"of hybrid approach work?"},{"startTime":1314.764,"endTime":1319.204,"body":"Yeah, I think, I think to your point about"},{"startTime":1314.764,"endTime":1319.204,"body":"that, it's probably best if that kind of"},{"startTime":1319.204,"endTime":1323.414,"body":"a model is, or not best, but most likely"},{"startTime":1319.204,"endTime":1323.414,"body":"that that kind of a model is aligned"},{"startTime":1323.414,"endTime":1328.354,"body":"to like you said, a product line, maybe"},{"startTime":1323.414,"endTime":1328.354,"body":"trucks or maybe convertibles or SUVs or"},{"startTime":1328.354,"endTime":1332.284,"body":"whatever, because then you can concentrate"},{"startTime":1328.354,"endTime":1332.284,"body":"your expertise without having to."},{"startTime":1332.524,"endTime":1334.544,"body":"Look at everything under the sun, right?"},{"startTime":1334.544,"endTime":1335.954,"body":"That that particular company offers."},{"startTime":1336.104,"endTime":1339.154,"body":"But even then, I don't know"},{"startTime":1336.104,"endTime":1339.154,"body":"if that's pervasive, really."},{"startTime":1339.204,"endTime":1341.654,"body":"I mean, in this example with,"},{"startTime":1339.204,"endTime":1341.654,"body":"with car manufacturers, I"},{"startTime":1341.654,"endTime":1342.804,"body":"don't know if that's pervasive."},{"startTime":1343.054,"endTime":1343.224,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1343.224,"endTime":1346.714,"body":"This is probably a bad example for"},{"startTime":1343.224,"endTime":1346.714,"body":"this because you like you go to the"},{"startTime":1346.714,"endTime":1349.454,"body":"dealership and it's not like, here's"},{"startTime":1346.714,"endTime":1349.454,"body":"the truck side of the dealership."},{"startTime":1349.614,"endTime":1351.214,"body":"Here's the sedan part of the dealership."},{"startTime":1351.234,"endTime":1354.674,"body":"Here's the SUV part of the dealership"},{"startTime":1351.234,"endTime":1354.674,"body":"or whatever here's the particular"},{"startTime":1354.674,"endTime":1356.034,"body":"model part of the dealership."},{"startTime":1356.034,"endTime":1357.804,"body":"They they just don't do it that way."},{"startTime":1357.924,"endTime":1362.464,"body":"We probably could brainstorm for"},{"startTime":1357.924,"endTime":1362.464,"body":"other, maybe pharmaceuticals or some"},{"startTime":1362.474,"endTime":1367.924,"body":"other businesses that, that are more"},{"startTime":1362.474,"endTime":1367.924,"body":"like this, like aircraft manufacturing"},{"startTime":1367.934,"endTime":1372.769,"body":"maybe would be like this, like the,"},{"startTime":1367.934,"endTime":1372.769,"body":"the large Passenger jets, the cargo"},{"startTime":1372.769,"endTime":1374.899,"body":"jets, the very small personal jets."},{"startTime":1374.909,"endTime":1378.359,"body":"Like those are segmented"},{"startTime":1374.909,"endTime":1378.359,"body":"where even different companies"},{"startTime":1378.389,"endTime":1379.699,"body":"are in different verticals."},{"startTime":1379.979,"endTime":1380.169,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1380.189,"endTime":1383.229,"body":"Those are very clear segmentations, right?"},{"startTime":1383.369,"endTime":1384.009,"body":"Right there."},{"startTime":1384.199,"endTime":1388.129,"body":"You know, private jets versus"},{"startTime":1384.199,"endTime":1388.129,"body":"the commuter jets or prop planes,"},{"startTime":1388.279,"endTime":1389.949,"body":"right puddle jumpers or whatever."},{"startTime":1390.209,"endTime":1391.459,"body":"Yeah, that, that's a good point."},{"startTime":1391.729,"endTime":1393.879,"body":"But again, even in that"},{"startTime":1391.729,"endTime":1393.879,"body":"environment, right."},{"startTime":1393.959,"endTime":1397.149,"body":"Do you really have a matrix situation?"},{"startTime":1397.299,"endTime":1400.949,"body":"Maybe you do from the standpoint,"},{"startTime":1397.299,"endTime":1400.949,"body":"standpoint of maintenance folks, because"},{"startTime":1400.949,"endTime":1403.079,"body":"they have to specialize in certain models."},{"startTime":1403.229,"endTime":1407.199,"body":"So maybe you have that, but as far"},{"startTime":1403.229,"endTime":1407.199,"body":"as I don't know if the customer"},{"startTime":1407.199,"endTime":1408.909,"body":"experience piece of it, right?"},{"startTime":1408.959,"endTime":1410.799,"body":"I don't know if that's really valid there."},{"startTime":1411.119,"endTime":1412.109,"body":"Yeah, I don't know either."},{"startTime":1412.319,"endTime":1414.999,"body":"This is a weird one to talk about"},{"startTime":1412.319,"endTime":1414.999,"body":"because  I'm trying to make a point here."},{"startTime":1415.129,"endTime":1416.939,"body":"It's super clunky."},{"startTime":1416.989,"endTime":1421.459,"body":"In a typical product management company,"},{"startTime":1416.989,"endTime":1421.459,"body":"product only, like let's go back to the"},{"startTime":1421.459,"endTime":1424.049,"body":"B2B Brian homes, mobile development."},{"startTime":1424.289,"endTime":1425.039,"body":"Company, right?"},{"startTime":1425.039,"endTime":1427.196,"body":"We produce B to B."},{"startTime":1427.196,"endTime":1428.119,"body":"Yeah, we did."},{"startTime":1428.379,"endTime":1432.019,"body":"We have B to C mobile"},{"startTime":1428.379,"endTime":1432.019,"body":"games or something, right?"},{"startTime":1432.029,"endTime":1434.679,"body":"The most addicting mobile"},{"startTime":1432.029,"endTime":1434.679,"body":"games on the internet."},{"startTime":1434.829,"endTime":1438.809,"body":"You get to keep giving us money for"},{"startTime":1434.829,"endTime":1438.809,"body":"in that company, we really believe"},{"startTime":1438.819,"endTime":1440.479,"body":"in a matrix structure, right?"},{"startTime":1440.479,"endTime":1440.749,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1440.749,"endTime":1446.559,"body":"Well like Ohm is the customer"},{"startTime":1440.749,"endTime":1446.559,"body":"experience and a user design expert."},{"startTime":1446.724,"endTime":1450.534,"body":"He, he hires all of the, the"},{"startTime":1446.724,"endTime":1450.534,"body":"support people and the, the,"},{"startTime":1450.674,"endTime":1454.474,"body":"the user centric you know, user"},{"startTime":1450.674,"endTime":1454.474,"body":"touching people, the service people."},{"startTime":1454.624,"endTime":1459.654,"body":"And then Brian is a developer and I hire"},{"startTime":1454.624,"endTime":1459.654,"body":"all the development backend folks, right?"},{"startTime":1459.804,"endTime":1462.934,"body":"That's a much better example, I think,"},{"startTime":1459.804,"endTime":1462.934,"body":"of where you can have that kind of a"},{"startTime":1462.934,"endTime":1464.524,"body":"hybrid environment in place, right?"},{"startTime":1464.674,"endTime":1467.144,"body":"Because one cannot"},{"startTime":1464.674,"endTime":1467.144,"body":"succeed without the other."},{"startTime":1467.294,"endTime":1468.754,"body":"One cannot live in a silo."},{"startTime":1469.019,"endTime":1469.209,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1469.239,"endTime":1470.359,"body":"By itself, really."},{"startTime":1470.409,"endTime":1472.629,"body":"I mean, otherwise the company's"},{"startTime":1470.409,"endTime":1472.629,"body":"gonna go under pretty quickly."},{"startTime":1472.779,"endTime":1474.969,"body":"So that's a, that's a"},{"startTime":1472.779,"endTime":1474.969,"body":"much, much better example."},{"startTime":1475.249,"endTime":1480.399,"body":"I think if you're just looking at"},{"startTime":1475.249,"endTime":1480.399,"body":"the B2C without the experience or"},{"startTime":1480.459,"endTime":1483.019,"body":"anything like that, the services"},{"startTime":1480.459,"endTime":1483.019,"body":"piece of it, you can think about"},{"startTime":1483.019,"endTime":1484.929,"body":"the FM's fast moving consumer goods."},{"startTime":1485.079,"endTime":1488.599,"body":"I'd say a company selling,"},{"startTime":1485.079,"endTime":1488.599,"body":"making and selling peanuts."},{"startTime":1488.669,"endTime":1488.909,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1488.979,"endTime":1489.999,"body":"In cans or whatever."},{"startTime":1490.069,"endTime":1490.359,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1490.509,"endTime":1491.739,"body":"Not much services there."},{"startTime":1491.819,"endTime":1495.879,"body":"I mean, they produce these things and"},{"startTime":1491.819,"endTime":1495.879,"body":"they sell them off to somebody who then"},{"startTime":1496.119,"endTime":1497.789,"body":"sells it off to the retail people, right?"},{"startTime":1497.829,"endTime":1499.189,"body":"And the consumers buy from there."},{"startTime":1499.339,"endTime":1500.959,"body":"There's really no services involved."},{"startTime":1501.109,"endTime":1506.059,"body":"As opposed to anything that requires"},{"startTime":1501.109,"endTime":1506.059,"body":"focus on the customer's experience"},{"startTime":1506.089,"endTime":1507.699,"body":"in using the product, right?"},{"startTime":1507.729,"endTime":1510.979,"body":"Which is coming back to that"},{"startTime":1507.729,"endTime":1510.979,"body":"example of mobile games."},{"startTime":1511.129,"endTime":1513.599,"body":"You want to make sure that the customers."},{"startTime":1513.749,"endTime":1517.509,"body":"Continuously keep subscribing"},{"startTime":1513.749,"endTime":1517.509,"body":"and buying things and buying"},{"startTime":1517.659,"endTime":1520.419,"body":"things off of the advertisers,"},{"startTime":1517.659,"endTime":1520.419,"body":"perhaps that you put in there."},{"startTime":1520.419,"endTime":1521.989,"body":"So you get a slice of it every time."},{"startTime":1522.139,"endTime":1527.309,"body":"What I'm trying to say is I'm"},{"startTime":1522.139,"endTime":1527.309,"body":"trying to prevent us from slipping"},{"startTime":1527.309,"endTime":1531.169,"body":"back into the silo model for"},{"startTime":1527.309,"endTime":1531.169,"body":"managing an organization like this."},{"startTime":1531.189,"endTime":1535.059,"body":"And it's very difficult because if I say,"},{"startTime":1531.189,"endTime":1535.059,"body":"okay, well, I have a matrix structure"},{"startTime":1535.209,"endTime":1539.149,"body":"where all of the product lines and"},{"startTime":1535.209,"endTime":1539.149,"body":"product managers who manages product"},{"startTime":1539.149,"endTime":1544.349,"body":"lines,  they have to work with the service"},{"startTime":1539.149,"endTime":1544.349,"body":"managers for each different service."},{"startTime":1544.549,"endTime":1547.259,"body":"You have ongoing swim"},{"startTime":1544.549,"endTime":1547.259,"body":"lanes of services, okay?"},{"startTime":1547.409,"endTime":1550.929,"body":"And the product managers intersect"},{"startTime":1547.409,"endTime":1550.929,"body":"vertically, potentially, right?"},{"startTime":1550.949,"endTime":1553.359,"body":"Maybe some services don't"},{"startTime":1550.949,"endTime":1553.359,"body":"use every product line."},{"startTime":1553.369,"endTime":1553.699,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1554.019,"endTime":1557.299,"body":"But, but for, for those that do,"},{"startTime":1554.019,"endTime":1557.299,"body":"the product managers intersect"},{"startTime":1557.449,"endTime":1561.449,"body":"vertically with, with all those"},{"startTime":1557.449,"endTime":1561.449,"body":"horizontal service deliveries."},{"startTime":1561.599,"endTime":1565.279,"body":"To say, Hey, our service is delivering"},{"startTime":1561.599,"endTime":1565.279,"body":"a little bit of column a with your"},{"startTime":1565.279,"endTime":1568.209,"body":"product, a little bit of column B"},{"startTime":1565.279,"endTime":1568.209,"body":"with another product, and then none"},{"startTime":1568.209,"endTime":1569.629,"body":"of column C with this other product."},{"startTime":1569.779,"endTime":1569.999,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1569.999,"endTime":1573.509,"body":"And then another service line"},{"startTime":1569.999,"endTime":1573.509,"body":"might be only column C, right?"},{"startTime":1573.529,"endTime":1576.019,"body":"Heavily dependent on what the product"},{"startTime":1573.529,"endTime":1576.019,"body":"delivers in that, in that one."},{"startTime":1576.339,"endTime":1580.649,"body":"So I feel the matrix structure could work"},{"startTime":1576.339,"endTime":1580.649,"body":"as long as the service delivery people"},{"startTime":1580.839,"endTime":1584.619,"body":"and the product management people are"},{"startTime":1580.839,"endTime":1584.619,"body":"both talking to each other in unison."},{"startTime":1584.619,"endTime":1587.549,"body":"And I would, I would assume that you're"},{"startTime":1584.619,"endTime":1587.549,"body":"going to have a, just like you have."},{"startTime":1587.699,"endTime":1591.619,"body":"For a product you have sprint reviews"},{"startTime":1587.699,"endTime":1591.619,"body":"I would expect you have service,"},{"startTime":1591.619,"endTime":1597.069,"body":"some kind of service delivery"},{"startTime":1591.619,"endTime":1597.069,"body":"reviews, maybe weekly service review."},{"startTime":1597.069,"endTime":1598.369,"body":"I don't know what the right cadence is."},{"startTime":1598.519,"endTime":1600.699,"body":"To say like, Hey, here are all"},{"startTime":1598.519,"endTime":1600.699,"body":"the customers that are using the"},{"startTime":1600.699,"endTime":1603.209,"body":"service and here are all the things"},{"startTime":1600.699,"endTime":1603.209,"body":"that we're planning to deliver."},{"startTime":1603.369,"endTime":1605.039,"body":"Here's the things we"},{"startTime":1603.369,"endTime":1605.039,"body":"really need from product."},{"startTime":1605.289,"endTime":1609.139,"body":"Here's the here's where we want to grow"},{"startTime":1605.289,"endTime":1609.139,"body":"the service, but you know, maybe we can't"},{"startTime":1609.139,"endTime":1610.929,"body":"cause the product roadmap doesn't do it."},{"startTime":1610.929,"endTime":1613.019,"body":"Or maybe we don't have enough"},{"startTime":1610.929,"endTime":1613.019,"body":"money budgeted, or maybe we"},{"startTime":1613.019,"endTime":1614.239,"body":"need some R and D or whatever."},{"startTime":1614.579,"endTime":1618.209,"body":"Like managing the service, I"},{"startTime":1614.579,"endTime":1618.209,"body":"only bring this up because we did"},{"startTime":1618.209,"endTime":1619.739,"body":"an episode on service delivery."},{"startTime":1619.819,"endTime":1620.159,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1620.219,"endTime":1622.439,"body":"And I, in that episode, I wasn't sure."},{"startTime":1622.589,"endTime":1624.129,"body":"About how service delivery worked."},{"startTime":1624.279,"endTime":1627.729,"body":"I also feel that most people are not"},{"startTime":1624.279,"endTime":1627.729,"body":"sure about how service delivery works."},{"startTime":1628.019,"endTime":1630.939,"body":"Because exactly what we're talking about"},{"startTime":1628.019,"endTime":1630.939,"body":"is that there is an intersection of"},{"startTime":1631.219,"endTime":1635.209,"body":"the swim lane being the service and the"},{"startTime":1631.219,"endTime":1635.209,"body":"products that are enabling that service"},{"startTime":1635.209,"endTime":1637.209,"body":"being the vertical that intersects."},{"startTime":1637.359,"endTime":1640.709,"body":"Yeah, so I, I think what, what"},{"startTime":1637.359,"endTime":1640.709,"body":"is important here is that this is"},{"startTime":1640.729,"endTime":1642.349,"body":"segmented appropriately, right?"},{"startTime":1642.429,"endTime":1646.229,"body":"To your point about the first part using"},{"startTime":1642.429,"endTime":1646.229,"body":"three columns one, maybe one, or so it,"},{"startTime":1646.289,"endTime":1648.269,"body":"it can't be all and sundry to everything."},{"startTime":1648.269,"endTime":1648.309,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1648.399,"endTime":1651.959,"body":"So if you're a matrix organization,"},{"startTime":1648.399,"endTime":1651.959,"body":"it's not like you have all of the"},{"startTime":1651.959,"endTime":1654.539,"body":"services, people over here, product"},{"startTime":1651.959,"endTime":1654.539,"body":"people over here, and you could"},{"startTime":1654.539,"endTime":1656.469,"body":"just combine them at will, right?"},{"startTime":1656.689,"endTime":1660.769,"body":"You have to pay heed to what kind"},{"startTime":1656.689,"endTime":1660.769,"body":"of product you're delivering and"},{"startTime":1660.779,"endTime":1664.379,"body":"get the right skill sets from"},{"startTime":1660.779,"endTime":1664.379,"body":"each to stay together for long"},{"startTime":1664.379,"endTime":1666.179,"body":"enough of that product life cycle."},{"startTime":1666.319,"endTime":1667.189,"body":"I like where you're going."},{"startTime":1667.249,"endTime":1671.179,"body":"Like you, you're, you're throwing salt"},{"startTime":1667.249,"endTime":1671.179,"body":"on my very confusing wound because"},{"startTime":1671.269,"endTime":1675.219,"body":"like maybe where they meet with the,"},{"startTime":1671.269,"endTime":1675.219,"body":"the vertical, the product and the"},{"startTime":1675.229,"endTime":1677.469,"body":"horizontal, the service, maybe you could."},{"startTime":1677.619,"endTime":1681.909,"body":"Take people for however long that,"},{"startTime":1677.619,"endTime":1681.909,"body":"that, that service goes or that the"},{"startTime":1681.909,"endTime":1683.149,"body":"products and service meet together."},{"startTime":1683.149,"endTime":1686.459,"body":"Maybe you could take people and just"},{"startTime":1683.149,"endTime":1686.459,"body":"dedicate them to this particular."},{"startTime":1686.609,"endTime":1688.979,"body":"solution for as long as we maintain it."},{"startTime":1688.989,"endTime":1690.109,"body":"That's exactly my point."},{"startTime":1690.109,"endTime":1690.619,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1690.629,"endTime":1693.299,"body":"So you don't want to keep"},{"startTime":1690.629,"endTime":1693.299,"body":"moving people in and out, right?"},{"startTime":1693.589,"endTime":1696.699,"body":"You want to keep people together"},{"startTime":1693.589,"endTime":1696.699,"body":"for the duration of that"},{"startTime":1696.699,"endTime":1698.589,"body":"product life cycle, if possible."},{"startTime":1698.639,"endTime":1701.739,"body":"That's why my brain is pushing"},{"startTime":1698.639,"endTime":1701.739,"body":"me back to silos to this."},{"startTime":1701.759,"endTime":1703.244,"body":"Cause I think the majority of companies."},{"startTime":1703.454,"endTime":1706.784,"body":"Would, especially if you're in a silo"},{"startTime":1703.454,"endTime":1706.784,"body":"and you know, like your chief product"},{"startTime":1706.784,"endTime":1709.914,"body":"officer owns all the product people"},{"startTime":1706.784,"endTime":1709.914,"body":"and your chief solutions officer"},{"startTime":1709.914,"endTime":1713.564,"body":"owns all the solution people or"},{"startTime":1709.914,"endTime":1713.564,"body":"whatever you would want to move here."},{"startTime":1713.564,"endTime":1717.564,"body":"Like, I don't want to I don't want to"},{"startTime":1713.564,"endTime":1717.564,"body":"keep my solution people on this one thing"},{"startTime":1717.574,"endTime":1720.294,"body":"in the same solution, people can't move"},{"startTime":1717.574,"endTime":1720.294,"body":"to anything else because maybe they're"},{"startTime":1720.294,"endTime":1723.684,"body":"really experienced and I don't want to"},{"startTime":1720.294,"endTime":1723.684,"body":"trap them there in one place or whatever,"},{"startTime":1723.684,"endTime":1726.584,"body":"while I'm delivering this solution,"},{"startTime":1723.684,"endTime":1726.584,"body":"they want to move their people around."},{"startTime":1726.584,"endTime":1727.184,"body":"So they see."},{"startTime":1727.479,"endTime":1729.309,"body":"People is like interchangeable cogs."},{"startTime":1729.339,"endTime":1733.539,"body":"They don't see them as this person is"},{"startTime":1729.339,"endTime":1733.539,"body":"going to manage this customer relationship"},{"startTime":1733.539,"endTime":1736.689,"body":"and stay on this quote project."},{"startTime":1736.839,"endTime":1738.229,"body":"It's not really a project at that point."},{"startTime":1738.229,"endTime":1741.289,"body":"It's delivery of a service to a"},{"startTime":1738.229,"endTime":1741.289,"body":"customer forever, basically to"},{"startTime":1741.289,"endTime":1744.039,"body":"maintain a level of service forever."},{"startTime":1744.149,"endTime":1745.919,"body":"And that is the slippery"},{"startTime":1744.149,"endTime":1745.919,"body":"slope though, right?"},{"startTime":1745.919,"endTime":1749.749,"body":"Cause people in that, in that kind"},{"startTime":1745.919,"endTime":1749.749,"body":"of an organization structured in"},{"startTime":1749.749,"endTime":1750.929,"body":"that way, I should say, right."},{"startTime":1750.959,"endTime":1753.749,"body":"What they're looking at is"},{"startTime":1750.959,"endTime":1753.749,"body":"where's the biggest need?"},{"startTime":1754.024,"endTime":1757.394,"body":"Who's shouting the loudest and we're"},{"startTime":1754.024,"endTime":1757.394,"body":"gonna take Fred from here, Mary"},{"startTime":1757.404,"endTime":1761.454,"body":"from here, bought from here and just"},{"startTime":1757.404,"endTime":1761.454,"body":"move around because that's where the"},{"startTime":1761.574,"endTime":1763.284,"body":"loudest voice is coming from right now."},{"startTime":1763.544,"endTime":1766.314,"body":"And unfortunately, that's going to"},{"startTime":1763.544,"endTime":1766.314,"body":"have an impact on your customer."},{"startTime":1766.464,"endTime":1770.874,"body":"I think of anytime I had to interact"},{"startTime":1766.464,"endTime":1770.874,"body":"as a product team member, I had to"},{"startTime":1770.874,"endTime":1775.144,"body":"interact with customer service like the"},{"startTime":1770.874,"endTime":1775.144,"body":"people actually answering the phones or"},{"startTime":1775.144,"endTime":1778.594,"body":"the people was, I was at a company one"},{"startTime":1775.144,"endTime":1778.594,"body":"time where we had There were more like"},{"startTime":1778.594,"endTime":1783.184,"body":"customer engineers that they weren't"},{"startTime":1778.594,"endTime":1783.184,"body":"really dedicated to a customer, but there"},{"startTime":1783.184,"endTime":1787.234,"body":"were some engineers that, that managed"},{"startTime":1783.184,"endTime":1787.234,"body":"a particular customer that said, when"},{"startTime":1787.234,"endTime":1791.224,"body":"this customer calls for all their support"},{"startTime":1787.234,"endTime":1791.224,"body":"calls, you go to this engineer because"},{"startTime":1791.224,"endTime":1795.124,"body":"this engineer, like maybe going back to"},{"startTime":1791.224,"endTime":1795.124,"body":"the beginning of the, the relationship"},{"startTime":1795.124,"endTime":1799.084,"body":"with that customer, that particular"},{"startTime":1795.124,"endTime":1799.084,"body":"engineer implemented their solution."},{"startTime":1799.234,"endTime":1800.844,"body":"They know everything about the solution."},{"startTime":1800.844,"endTime":1802.254,"body":"They know everything about their config."},{"startTime":1802.464,"endTime":1802.824,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1802.844,"endTime":1804.404,"body":"I mean, you can send it to other people."},{"startTime":1804.554,"endTime":1807.494,"body":"To cross train sure, but you're"},{"startTime":1804.554,"endTime":1807.494,"body":"still going to need that particular"},{"startTime":1807.494,"endTime":1811.084,"body":"engineer To sit over their shoulder"},{"startTime":1807.494,"endTime":1811.084,"body":"to help them come up to speed."},{"startTime":1811.084,"endTime":1814.374,"body":"Cause it's their setup, their"},{"startTime":1811.084,"endTime":1814.374,"body":"configuration of the products."},{"startTime":1814.544,"endTime":1817.274,"body":"And I think about that"},{"startTime":1814.544,"endTime":1817.274,"body":"organization how they handled it."},{"startTime":1817.284,"endTime":1821.354,"body":"Like the, and then when that engineer"},{"startTime":1817.284,"endTime":1821.354,"body":"left some, some other engineer had"},{"startTime":1821.354,"endTime":1824.254,"body":"to take over their customers, had to"},{"startTime":1821.354,"endTime":1824.254,"body":"learn the configs, had to learn that,"},{"startTime":1824.444,"endTime":1829.434,"body":"that particular customer's business"},{"startTime":1824.444,"endTime":1829.434,"body":"and like really specific needs."},{"startTime":1829.494,"endTime":1829.714,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1829.734,"endTime":1831.104,"body":"Likes, dislikes, everything."},{"startTime":1831.114,"endTime":1831.414,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1831.504,"endTime":1831.634,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1831.634,"endTime":1832.464,"body":"That was a service."},{"startTime":1832.474,"endTime":1835.304,"body":"That was the engineering customer support."},{"startTime":1835.454,"endTime":1839.384,"body":"Service that we offered"},{"startTime":1835.454,"endTime":1839.384,"body":"where the engineer."},{"startTime":1839.649,"endTime":1842.149,"body":"Implemented our products"},{"startTime":1839.649,"endTime":1842.149,"body":"at the customer site."},{"startTime":1842.159,"endTime":1844.439,"body":"That was like enterprise solutions"},{"startTime":1842.159,"endTime":1844.439,"body":"back in the two thousands."},{"startTime":1844.469,"endTime":1845.209,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1845.359,"endTime":1847.959,"body":"This is a model that's again,"},{"startTime":1845.359,"endTime":1847.959,"body":"tried and tested, right."},{"startTime":1847.989,"endTime":1852.029,"body":"It has worked for some companies that"},{"startTime":1847.989,"endTime":1852.029,"body":"have managed to keep people together for"},{"startTime":1852.029,"endTime":1853.829,"body":"a product line for as long as possible."},{"startTime":1854.059,"endTime":1854.779,"body":"Otherwise."},{"startTime":1854.929,"endTime":1859.409,"body":"It's not ideal, especially today"},{"startTime":1854.929,"endTime":1859.409,"body":"when everyone's looked upon as"},{"startTime":1859.409,"endTime":1862.219,"body":"a utilization based resource."},{"startTime":1862.349,"endTime":1863.649,"body":"Yeah, she's a terrible term."},{"startTime":1863.929,"endTime":1867.009,"body":"But you know, and so that they look at it"},{"startTime":1863.929,"endTime":1867.009,"body":"that way and say, well, you're not that"},{"startTime":1867.009,"endTime":1869.029,"body":"busy with customer a you can also use."},{"startTime":1869.179,"endTime":1871.979,"body":"Dip it over here and spend"},{"startTime":1869.179,"endTime":1871.979,"body":"a few hours over here."},{"startTime":1872.129,"endTime":1875.719,"body":"And that's when you start diluting"},{"startTime":1872.129,"endTime":1875.719,"body":"the quality of service you can offer."},{"startTime":1875.859,"endTime":1878.569,"body":"Well, the issue with that one is"},{"startTime":1875.859,"endTime":1878.569,"body":"when you start doing really crazy"},{"startTime":1878.569,"endTime":1881.539,"body":"stuff, it's like Oh, I think of"},{"startTime":1878.569,"endTime":1881.539,"body":"like, Oh, I'm dedicated to two teams."},{"startTime":1881.549,"endTime":1883.589,"body":"Like I'm 50 percent with this team"},{"startTime":1881.549,"endTime":1883.589,"body":"and 50 percent with that team."},{"startTime":1883.739,"endTime":1887.549,"body":"It gets worse when you're"},{"startTime":1883.739,"endTime":1887.549,"body":"like 25 percent here."},{"startTime":1887.814,"endTime":1890.734,"body":"13 percent here, 5 percent here."},{"startTime":1890.754,"endTime":1891.134,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1891.134,"endTime":1894.634,"body":"And like you really get down to the"},{"startTime":1891.134,"endTime":1894.634,"body":"granular single digit percentages"},{"startTime":1894.924,"endTime":1899.634,"body":"because your service people are just"},{"startTime":1894.924,"endTime":1899.634,"body":"wildly thrashing all over the place."},{"startTime":1899.674,"endTime":1901.784,"body":"And you're hoping that it's going"},{"startTime":1899.674,"endTime":1901.784,"body":"to add up to a hundred percent."},{"startTime":1901.934,"endTime":1903.494,"body":"It adds up to way more."},{"startTime":1903.544,"endTime":1906.344,"body":"I mean, every time you thrash,"},{"startTime":1903.544,"endTime":1906.344,"body":"you're going to spend some overhead."},{"startTime":1906.344,"endTime":1906.674,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1906.994,"endTime":1907.404,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1907.554,"endTime":1909.164,"body":"Even switching between two, right."},{"startTime":1909.454,"endTime":1911.264,"body":"And we know this,  that switching costs."},{"startTime":1911.414,"endTime":1914.214,"body":"It's coming to a podcast"},{"startTime":1911.414,"endTime":1914.214,"body":"near you in the future,"},{"startTime":1914.314,"endTime":1917.974,"body":"how you manage each one, like the"},{"startTime":1914.314,"endTime":1917.974,"body":"matrix one is very interesting to me."},{"startTime":1918.124,"endTime":1919.814,"body":"A lot of, a lot of organizations."},{"startTime":1919.834,"endTime":1923.004,"body":"I mean, it's even what we're"},{"startTime":1919.834,"endTime":1923.004,"body":"talking about now seems complicated."},{"startTime":1923.154,"endTime":1926.954,"body":"So I completely understand why people"},{"startTime":1923.154,"endTime":1926.954,"body":"bring it back to the silo model."},{"startTime":1926.954,"endTime":1926.994,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1927.144,"endTime":1930.704,"body":"I, in my brain, I'm having a hard time"},{"startTime":1927.144,"endTime":1930.704,"body":"snapping, not snapping back to the"},{"startTime":1930.704,"endTime":1933.374,"body":"silo model where, oh, all my product"},{"startTime":1930.704,"endTime":1933.374,"body":"people just go back to the product,"},{"startTime":1933.574,"endTime":1934.854,"body":"cheap product officer, you know."},{"startTime":1934.884,"endTime":1935.124,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1935.274,"endTime":1939.034,"body":"It's the, I think it's the easiest"},{"startTime":1935.274,"endTime":1939.034,"body":"solution people will grasp at, right?"},{"startTime":1939.034,"endTime":1941.974,"body":"This is how we're going to do"},{"startTime":1939.034,"endTime":1941.974,"body":"things because there's comfort in"},{"startTime":1941.974,"endTime":1945.644,"body":"knowing that all product people can"},{"startTime":1941.974,"endTime":1945.644,"body":"work with the product, cheap CPO."},{"startTime":1945.674,"endTime":1949.554,"body":"You know what a more interesting"},{"startTime":1945.674,"endTime":1949.554,"body":"management solution is, is, is for each"},{"startTime":1949.584,"endTime":1952.004,"body":"customer you have a dedicated team."},{"startTime":1952.334,"endTime":1953.914,"body":"That just manages that customer."},{"startTime":1953.914,"endTime":1956.084,"body":"So you have a few service people,"},{"startTime":1953.914,"endTime":1956.084,"body":"just like I was talking about with"},{"startTime":1956.084,"endTime":1959.134,"body":"the engineers, you have, you have"},{"startTime":1956.084,"endTime":1959.134,"body":"a few service people, engineers,"},{"startTime":1959.144,"endTime":1962.974,"body":"whatever that, that, when that customer"},{"startTime":1959.144,"endTime":1962.974,"body":"calls, they maintain that solution."},{"startTime":1963.124,"endTime":1963.424,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1963.444,"endTime":1965.294,"body":"This is the customer centric model, right?"},{"startTime":1965.294,"endTime":1969.824,"body":"So these these groups of people I"},{"startTime":1965.294,"endTime":1969.824,"body":"came across this model in publishing"},{"startTime":1969.834,"endTime":1973.174,"body":"some time ago, these groups of"},{"startTime":1969.834,"endTime":1973.174,"body":"people were called pods at the time."},{"startTime":1973.434,"endTime":1975.764,"body":"And the way they were located,"},{"startTime":1973.434,"endTime":1975.764,"body":"everybody's working from the"},{"startTime":1975.764,"endTime":1978.054,"body":"office is they had these round."},{"startTime":1978.204,"endTime":1983.504,"body":"Pillars almost in a very open plan office,"},{"startTime":1978.204,"endTime":1983.504,"body":"and you would have, you would have desks"},{"startTime":1983.594,"endTime":1986.934,"body":"with monitors on them around this pillar."},{"startTime":1987.084,"endTime":1988.294,"body":"And that was a pod."},{"startTime":1988.424,"endTime":1990.764,"body":"A pod would typically have"},{"startTime":1988.424,"endTime":1990.764,"body":"five to six people in it."},{"startTime":1990.914,"endTime":1992.324,"body":"They can all see one another."},{"startTime":1992.474,"endTime":1993.814,"body":"And they all talk to one another."},{"startTime":1993.964,"endTime":1998.214,"body":"And when a call comes in for support,"},{"startTime":1993.964,"endTime":1998.214,"body":"for example a senior person would take"},{"startTime":1998.214,"endTime":2002.594,"body":"over the call based on the customer,"},{"startTime":1998.214,"endTime":2002.594,"body":"the severity of the issue that was"},{"startTime":2002.604,"endTime":2006.694,"body":"being called in and the relationship"},{"startTime":2002.604,"endTime":2006.694,"body":"that they had with that customer."},{"startTime":2007.024,"endTime":2009.584,"body":"So pod was very customers"},{"startTime":2007.024,"endTime":2009.584,"body":"focused at that point."},{"startTime":2009.734,"endTime":2010.704,"body":"This was an advertising."},{"startTime":2010.704,"endTime":2015.784,"body":"So all these customers were accounts"},{"startTime":2010.704,"endTime":2015.784,"body":"like Macy's or Nordstrom's that they"},{"startTime":2015.784,"endTime":2019.794,"body":"would take out very expensive large"},{"startTime":2015.784,"endTime":2019.794,"body":"ads in magazines and newspapers."},{"startTime":2019.944,"endTime":2023.514,"body":"So when they called, you listened"},{"startTime":2019.944,"endTime":2023.514,"body":"and you responded the way they"},{"startTime":2023.514,"endTime":2026.244,"body":"wanted you to respond, because"},{"startTime":2023.514,"endTime":2026.244,"body":"these are your top clients."},{"startTime":2026.574,"endTime":2028.014,"body":"But that went down the line too."},{"startTime":2028.024,"endTime":2031.544,"body":"So you had some people that will"},{"startTime":2028.024,"endTime":2031.544,"body":"place ads that are much smaller."},{"startTime":2031.604,"endTime":2033.764,"body":"This is a sound Morose funeral homes."},{"startTime":2033.879,"endTime":2034.079,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2034.259,"endTime":2038.319,"body":"Great line of service for for newspapers"},{"startTime":2034.259,"endTime":2038.319,"body":"because people always will die."},{"startTime":2038.479,"endTime":2041.229,"body":"So they will take out ads"},{"startTime":2038.479,"endTime":2041.229,"body":"and The difference there"},{"startTime":2041.229,"endTime":2042.339,"body":"isn't just the money right?"},{"startTime":2042.349,"endTime":2045.689,"body":"You have to respond to these"},{"startTime":2042.349,"endTime":2045.689,"body":"people in an empathetic way."},{"startTime":2045.709,"endTime":2048.269,"body":"I mean, you're basically"},{"startTime":2045.709,"endTime":2048.269,"body":"reporting deaths, right?"},{"startTime":2048.479,"endTime":2051.839,"body":"So it took a certain type of person"},{"startTime":2048.479,"endTime":2051.839,"body":"to deal with that and they put"},{"startTime":2051.859,"endTime":2053.209,"body":"these people together in pods."},{"startTime":2053.209,"endTime":2057.659,"body":"It worked brilliantly until one day"},{"startTime":2053.209,"endTime":2057.659,"body":"when the Publishing house was bought"},{"startTime":2057.659,"endTime":2061.599,"body":"over by a larger one and they decided"},{"startTime":2057.659,"endTime":2061.599,"body":"this was all some kind of woo woo."},{"startTime":2061.949,"endTime":2066.109,"body":"And they said, no, we're not doing"},{"startTime":2061.949,"endTime":2066.109,"body":"that now, you know and of course it"},{"startTime":2066.159,"endTime":2067.969,"body":"tanked very quickly, I might add."},{"startTime":2068.119,"endTime":2070.339,"body":"Customers left in droves for a competitor."},{"startTime":2070.489,"endTime":2073.219,"body":"Well, again, that's the"},{"startTime":2070.489,"endTime":2073.219,"body":"advantage of the services models."},{"startTime":2073.219,"endTime":2077.009,"body":"You have a deep relationship that at"},{"startTime":2073.219,"endTime":2077.009,"body":"the heart of this, at the heart of"},{"startTime":2077.009,"endTime":2079.379,"body":"why they're buying the service from"},{"startTime":2077.009,"endTime":2079.379,"body":"you, there's a relationship there."},{"startTime":2079.689,"endTime":2081.739,"body":"And the minute that"},{"startTime":2079.689,"endTime":2081.739,"body":"they Oh, it seems like."},{"startTime":2081.889,"endTime":2085.499,"body":"The person providing me a relationship"},{"startTime":2081.889,"endTime":2085.499,"body":"changes a week to week, or maybe"},{"startTime":2085.499,"endTime":2087.779,"body":"I don't like the person that's"},{"startTime":2085.499,"endTime":2087.779,"body":"checking the box at that point."},{"startTime":2087.929,"endTime":2088.259,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2088.339,"endTime":2088.729,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2088.819,"endTime":2089.719,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":2089.719,"endTime":2093.559,"body":"I think you really have to be vested"},{"startTime":2089.719,"endTime":2093.559,"body":"in that because providing a good"},{"startTime":2093.709,"endTime":2097.739,"body":"service is your competitive advantage"},{"startTime":2093.709,"endTime":2097.739,"body":"because your product could be"},{"startTime":2097.739,"endTime":2099.269,"body":"leapfrogged by another company, right?"},{"startTime":2099.579,"endTime":2099.939,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2100.119,"endTime":2104.619,"body":"And  Your product could get to the"},{"startTime":2100.119,"endTime":2104.619,"body":"point where the market is so flooded"},{"startTime":2104.629,"endTime":2107.089,"body":"that the product is the commodity."},{"startTime":2107.319,"endTime":2108.989,"body":"Like the product is not special anymore."},{"startTime":2108.989,"endTime":2112.129,"body":"Yeah, like it is a half a dozen other"},{"startTime":2108.989,"endTime":2112.129,"body":"products off the shelf that you can get"},{"startTime":2112.129,"endTime":2114.279,"body":"that do the same thing, but the service."},{"startTime":2114.429,"endTime":2116.559,"body":"Becomes the real differentiator."},{"startTime":2116.619,"endTime":2116.799,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2117.099,"endTime":2119.259,"body":"You know, you, you get the,"},{"startTime":2117.099,"endTime":2119.259,"body":"you get the white glove"},{"startTime":2119.259,"endTime":2120.639,"body":"service, the concierge service."},{"startTime":2120.639,"endTime":2123.039,"body":"You get experts that can"},{"startTime":2120.639,"endTime":2123.039,"body":"knock out what you like."},{"startTime":2123.039,"endTime":2125.109,"body":"The engineering service that"},{"startTime":2123.039,"endTime":2125.109,"body":"I was talking about before."},{"startTime":2125.229,"endTime":2125.289,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2125.289,"endTime":2128.169,"body":"That was the differentiator for,"},{"startTime":2125.289,"endTime":2128.169,"body":"for, for that company at the"},{"startTime":2128.174,"endTime":2132.249,"body":"time, is you can get an engineer,"},{"startTime":2128.174,"endTime":2132.249,"body":"you can call the support number."},{"startTime":2132.399,"endTime":2134.829,"body":"You didn't get a machine or AI or Right."},{"startTime":2134.829,"endTime":2136.059,"body":"Did the id whatever."},{"startTime":2136.059,"endTime":2137.829,"body":"The IDR what, what's the,"},{"startTime":2136.059,"endTime":2137.829,"body":"what's the thing called?"},{"startTime":2137.829,"endTime":2138.864,"body":"I-D-R-I-V-R?"},{"startTime":2138.864,"endTime":2139.024,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2139.024,"endTime":2142.059,"body":"The IR You didn't get that,"},{"startTime":2139.024,"endTime":2142.059,"body":"like you got a person."},{"startTime":2142.354,"endTime":2146.284,"body":"That said, Hey, welcome to Brian"},{"startTime":2142.354,"endTime":2146.284,"body":"and Ohm's software development"},{"startTime":2146.284,"endTime":2147.664,"body":"company what do you need?"},{"startTime":2147.714,"endTime":2148.024,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2148.314,"endTime":2148.804,"body":"And then."},{"startTime":2148.954,"endTime":2150.554,"body":"You're like, Oh, Oh my goodness."},{"startTime":2150.554,"endTime":2153.274,"body":"Like I have a real"},{"startTime":2150.554,"endTime":2153.274,"body":"person, I have a problem."},{"startTime":2153.294,"endTime":2155.394,"body":"And then they would say,"},{"startTime":2153.294,"endTime":2155.394,"body":"okay, what's the problem?"},{"startTime":2155.394,"endTime":2158.434,"body":"What software, whatever they would"},{"startTime":2155.394,"endTime":2158.434,"body":"ask you some questions and you can"},{"startTime":2158.434,"endTime":2163.664,"body":"get real service within one hop"},{"startTime":2158.434,"endTime":2163.664,"body":"basically, and get connected directly"},{"startTime":2163.664,"endTime":2165.764,"body":"to the expert and it's your expert."},{"startTime":2165.774,"endTime":2167.484,"body":"It's the expert that knows your system."},{"startTime":2167.634,"endTime":2170.254,"body":"That is, that is interesting"},{"startTime":2167.634,"endTime":2170.254,"body":"to differentiate that model"},{"startTime":2170.274,"endTime":2171.389,"body":"from another one, which is."},{"startTime":2171.689,"endTime":2175.039,"body":"You can still pick up the phone, and"},{"startTime":2171.689,"endTime":2175.039,"body":"you can still talk to somebody, maybe"},{"startTime":2175.039,"endTime":2178.129,"body":"in another part of the world and they're"},{"startTime":2175.039,"endTime":2178.129,"body":"gonna bring out their script, oh, it's"},{"startTime":2178.129,"endTime":2180.969,"body":"on their screen, and they're gonna ask"},{"startTime":2178.129,"endTime":2180.969,"body":"you questions like, is it plugged in,"},{"startTime":2181.119,"endTime":2184.999,"body":"right, come on, right, that, that's not"},{"startTime":2181.119,"endTime":2184.999,"body":"really what this experience is about, the"},{"startTime":2184.999,"endTime":2188.189,"body":"customer already knows that it should be"},{"startTime":2184.999,"endTime":2188.189,"body":"plugged in, I mean, they need, they need"},{"startTime":2188.189,"endTime":2189.729,"body":"to talk to somebody who knows their Right."},{"startTime":2189.729,"endTime":2189.759,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2190.069,"endTime":2191.319,"body":"Business, right?"},{"startTime":2191.319,"endTime":2195.559,"body":"So just having a call center operator"},{"startTime":2191.319,"endTime":2195.559,"body":"answer a phone because you're providing"},{"startTime":2195.569,"endTime":2200.009,"body":"a, a human touch there, that's checking a"},{"startTime":2195.569,"endTime":2200.009,"body":"box, honestly, because then they have to"},{"startTime":2200.019,"endTime":2202.689,"body":"escalate to L2 and even they don't know."},{"startTime":2202.839,"endTime":2204.059,"body":"the customer centric."},{"startTime":2204.114,"endTime":2205.714,"body":"Solution like that's super interesting."},{"startTime":2205.914,"endTime":2208.314,"body":"Like there's a, there's a bunch of"},{"startTime":2205.914,"endTime":2208.314,"body":"other models that we could probably"},{"startTime":2208.324,"endTime":2211.764,"body":"dig, dig in on this one, like the,"},{"startTime":2208.324,"endTime":2211.764,"body":"the geographic model of like when,"},{"startTime":2211.774,"endTime":2215.894,"body":"when Uber wants to expand to a new"},{"startTime":2211.774,"endTime":2215.894,"body":"city, they have to spin up a team in"},{"startTime":2215.894,"endTime":2219.174,"body":"that city to figure out the patterns"},{"startTime":2215.894,"endTime":2219.174,"body":"and the to figure out that how their"},{"startTime":2219.174,"endTime":2220.934,"body":"service is going to work in that city"},{"startTime":2221.084,"endTime":2222.624,"body":"The consultancy led."},{"startTime":2222.774,"endTime":2226.804,"body":"Approach is also interesting  I"},{"startTime":2222.774,"endTime":2226.804,"body":"call it the lawyer model because."},{"startTime":2226.954,"endTime":2232.344,"body":"I like to think of consultancies like law"},{"startTime":2226.954,"endTime":2232.344,"body":"firms, meaning if I'm a law firm and I'm"},{"startTime":2232.344,"endTime":2236.384,"body":"looking to bring on another partner in"},{"startTime":2232.344,"endTime":2236.384,"body":"my law firm or even really an employee"},{"startTime":2236.384,"endTime":2239.034,"body":"in my law firm, I have a, I have a couple"},{"startTime":2236.384,"endTime":2239.034,"body":"of lawyer friends and they described"},{"startTime":2239.034,"endTime":2243.324,"body":"the field like this, no, like there's a"},{"startTime":2239.034,"endTime":2243.324,"body":"million people graduating from law school"},{"startTime":2243.324,"endTime":2248.674,"body":"every day and every law firm is like"},{"startTime":2243.324,"endTime":2248.674,"body":"staffed to the tippy top with new lawyers."},{"startTime":2248.704,"endTime":2249.844,"body":"They don't need new lawyers."},{"startTime":2249.994,"endTime":2250.754,"body":"However, yeah."},{"startTime":2250.904,"endTime":2253.414,"body":"If they're going to hire you as a new"},{"startTime":2250.904,"endTime":2253.414,"body":"lawyer, they want to know that you come"},{"startTime":2253.414,"endTime":2256.444,"body":"with a portfolio of clients of your own."},{"startTime":2256.774,"endTime":2260.334,"body":"That you gathered on your own"},{"startTime":2256.774,"endTime":2260.334,"body":"and then they'll cut you in."},{"startTime":2260.484,"endTime":2264.874,"body":"And when you, when you come in, then"},{"startTime":2260.484,"endTime":2264.874,"body":"now you have a little more say over"},{"startTime":2264.954,"endTime":2266.804,"body":"who gets hired on your own staff."},{"startTime":2266.954,"endTime":2269.644,"body":"So the more clients that you add to the."},{"startTime":2269.794,"endTime":2273.574,"body":"Parent law firm that you came in to the"},{"startTime":2269.794,"endTime":2273.574,"body":"more power you get to say I need more"},{"startTime":2273.574,"endTime":2278.374,"body":"people to help service my clients To"},{"startTime":2273.574,"endTime":2278.374,"body":"provide a certain level of service to"},{"startTime":2278.374,"endTime":2280.464,"body":"the clients and then there's revenue"},{"startTime":2278.374,"endTime":2280.464,"body":"that goes with that and whatnot."},{"startTime":2280.464,"endTime":2285.974,"body":"So I It's consulting led approach, but I"},{"startTime":2280.464,"endTime":2285.974,"body":"kind of think of it as like the the the"},{"startTime":2286.004,"endTime":2290.434,"body":"the law firm approach I think of this for"},{"startTime":2286.004,"endTime":2290.434,"body":"every consultancy That I've ever heard of."},{"startTime":2290.634,"endTime":2294.514,"body":"I think your consultancy could be"},{"startTime":2290.634,"endTime":2294.514,"body":"better if it was more like a law firm,"},{"startTime":2294.524,"endTime":2297.824,"body":"like with the, with the individual"},{"startTime":2294.524,"endTime":2297.824,"body":"consultants should be their own"},{"startTime":2297.824,"endTime":2299.964,"body":"salespeople, their own BD people."},{"startTime":2300.004,"endTime":2304.454,"body":"Maybe you have a sales and BD wing of"},{"startTime":2300.004,"endTime":2304.454,"body":"the company that assists the individual"},{"startTime":2304.454,"endTime":2308.544,"body":"lawyers in drumming up business Hey, let"},{"startTime":2304.454,"endTime":2308.544,"body":"me teach you how to better let me hear"},{"startTime":2308.544,"endTime":2313.974,"body":"some tools to help you enable reaching"},{"startTime":2308.544,"endTime":2313.974,"body":"out and tapping new markets, but the more"},{"startTime":2313.974,"endTime":2316.654,"body":"people that you bring in as the lawyer."},{"startTime":2316.804,"endTime":2322.034,"body":"The more people that can help you"},{"startTime":2316.804,"endTime":2322.034,"body":"in your part of the business so now"},{"startTime":2322.034,"endTime":2323.454,"body":"we are organically growing this."},{"startTime":2323.604,"endTime":2328.174,"body":"This little law firm into a mega"},{"startTime":2323.604,"endTime":2328.174,"body":"corporation by letting it organically"},{"startTime":2328.174,"endTime":2331.394,"body":"expand, whoever can bring in business"},{"startTime":2328.174,"endTime":2331.394,"body":"and kind of wrap new business in"},{"startTime":2331.394,"endTime":2335.014,"body":"their, in their wing of the firm,"},{"startTime":2331.394,"endTime":2335.014,"body":"like let it expand, let it happen."},{"startTime":2335.164,"endTime":2335.474,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2335.624,"endTime":2339.314,"body":"And those other people, like you said,"},{"startTime":2335.624,"endTime":2339.314,"body":"they can take the drudgery out of things"},{"startTime":2339.314,"endTime":2341.104,"body":"like contracts and things like that."},{"startTime":2341.104,"endTime":2341.344,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2341.494,"endTime":2345.594,"body":"That's interesting because what that's"},{"startTime":2341.494,"endTime":2345.594,"body":"going to do over time is it's going"},{"startTime":2345.594,"endTime":2350.594,"body":"to have all the people that are good"},{"startTime":2345.594,"endTime":2350.594,"body":"salespeople drumming up business bubble up"},{"startTime":2350.594,"endTime":2352.354,"body":"right and they'll get cut into your point."},{"startTime":2352.384,"endTime":2354.774,"body":"This is probably have to"},{"startTime":2352.384,"endTime":2354.774,"body":"buy in to be partners."},{"startTime":2354.774,"endTime":2359.094,"body":"But yeah So that's what's gonna happen"},{"startTime":2354.774,"endTime":2359.094,"body":"over time Most of the law firms that are"},{"startTime":2359.144,"endTime":2363.804,"body":"out there work in this way, right the"},{"startTime":2359.144,"endTime":2363.804,"body":"bigger ones I would say work in this way."},{"startTime":2363.864,"endTime":2365.114,"body":"I think about consultancies though."},{"startTime":2365.114,"endTime":2366.144,"body":"That's why I brought this up."},{"startTime":2366.144,"endTime":2369.909,"body":"I was like that's That's like a software"},{"startTime":2366.144,"endTime":2369.909,"body":"consultancies, agile consultancies."},{"startTime":2370.029,"endTime":2372.939,"body":"Well, I guess now, now like they're"},{"startTime":2370.029,"endTime":2372.939,"body":"not called agile consultancy."},{"startTime":2372.939,"endTime":2373.089,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2373.089,"endTime":2376.179,"body":"They're product operating model"},{"startTime":2373.089,"endTime":2376.179,"body":"consultancies, pro product coaches."},{"startTime":2376.179,"endTime":2377.259,"body":"That's what I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":2377.409,"endTime":2378.609,"body":"That's an interesting model though."},{"startTime":2378.614,"endTime":2379.519,"body":"I mean you know."},{"startTime":2379.669,"endTime":2383.249,"body":"What happens when you have staff"},{"startTime":2379.669,"endTime":2383.249,"body":"turnover in that kind of a model, right?"},{"startTime":2383.399,"endTime":2386.929,"body":"I mean, you have staff that this is the"},{"startTime":2383.399,"endTime":2386.929,"body":"reason that there was non competes in the"},{"startTime":2386.929,"endTime":2389.229,"body":"past is exactly for this type of thing."},{"startTime":2389.379,"endTime":2392.529,"body":"Luckily, the Supreme court actually made"},{"startTime":2389.379,"endTime":2392.529,"body":"a good decision and decided that non"},{"startTime":2392.529,"endTime":2394.679,"body":"competes are ridiculous because they are."},{"startTime":2394.819,"endTime":2397.109,"body":"But this is the reason why you"},{"startTime":2394.819,"endTime":2397.109,"body":"had non competes is, we don't"},{"startTime":2397.109,"endTime":2400.679,"body":"want you leaving and taking the"},{"startTime":2397.109,"endTime":2400.679,"body":"relationships that you've built."},{"startTime":2400.829,"endTime":2404.269,"body":"As the service provider with you,"},{"startTime":2400.829,"endTime":2404.269,"body":"which, I mean, if you think about"},{"startTime":2404.269,"endTime":2407.789,"body":"the service, the service is built"},{"startTime":2404.269,"endTime":2407.789,"body":"on you building a relationship."},{"startTime":2407.789,"endTime":2409.149,"body":"So how can you personal thing?"},{"startTime":2409.209,"endTime":2410.499,"body":"How can you not take those?"},{"startTime":2410.669,"endTime":2414.209,"body":"I mean, the, the, the, the people that"},{"startTime":2410.669,"endTime":2414.209,"body":"are buying the service from your company,"},{"startTime":2414.219,"endTime":2416.639,"body":"not the product, the people that are"},{"startTime":2414.219,"endTime":2416.639,"body":"buying the service from your company,"},{"startTime":2416.789,"endTime":2421.699,"body":"they want to know when they pull up to"},{"startTime":2416.789,"endTime":2421.699,"body":"the dealership when they call up the"},{"startTime":2421.989,"endTime":2423.379,"body":"person on the phone, they're going to get."},{"startTime":2423.529,"endTime":2427.929,"body":"Jed the engineer on the phone, they're"},{"startTime":2423.529,"endTime":2427.929,"body":"going to roll up and get Bob the salesman"},{"startTime":2427.969,"endTime":2433.129,"body":"at their dealership when they go buy their"},{"startTime":2427.969,"endTime":2433.129,"body":"car that the third, third car in 10 years."},{"startTime":2433.279,"endTime":2435.429,"body":"from the same dealership"},{"startTime":2433.279,"endTime":2435.429,"body":"at the same place."},{"startTime":2435.429,"endTime":2438.259,"body":"They want to know that"},{"startTime":2435.429,"endTime":2438.259,"body":"salesperson is there that they"},{"startTime":2438.259,"endTime":2439.349,"body":"have the relationship with."},{"startTime":2439.569,"endTime":2442.169,"body":"You're, you're buying a"},{"startTime":2439.569,"endTime":2442.169,"body":"relationship in the services model."},{"startTime":2442.319,"endTime":2442.959,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2443.109,"endTime":2443.969,"body":"Absolutely true."},{"startTime":2444.119,"endTime":2447.379,"body":"This is also, I think, valid in"},{"startTime":2444.119,"endTime":2447.379,"body":"the pharmaceutical world, right?"},{"startTime":2447.379,"endTime":2452.229,"body":"Where you have specific salespeople that"},{"startTime":2447.379,"endTime":2452.229,"body":"form relationships with these providers"},{"startTime":2452.229,"endTime":2455.859,"body":"to whom they're selling drugs, whether"},{"startTime":2452.229,"endTime":2455.859,"body":"it's hospitals or whether it's outpatient"},{"startTime":2455.859,"endTime":2457.389,"body":"centers or even physician's offices."},{"startTime":2457.539,"endTime":2460.629,"body":"And they have a personal"},{"startTime":2457.539,"endTime":2460.629,"body":"relationship and based on that."},{"startTime":2460.779,"endTime":2462.219,"body":"The business takes place, right?"},{"startTime":2462.219,"endTime":2465.609,"body":"So when that person who has the"},{"startTime":2462.219,"endTime":2465.609,"body":"relationship as a sales rep,"},{"startTime":2465.829,"endTime":2468.299,"body":"when they leave, they're going to"},{"startTime":2465.829,"endTime":2468.299,"body":"take the relationship with them."},{"startTime":2468.339,"endTime":2469.759,"body":"How could they not, right?"},{"startTime":2469.939,"endTime":2471.099,"body":"Non competes aside."},{"startTime":2471.139,"endTime":2473.939,"body":"And then they did silly things"},{"startTime":2471.139,"endTime":2473.939,"body":"like they put geographical"},{"startTime":2474.109,"endTime":2475.559,"body":"limitations on non compete."},{"startTime":2475.859,"endTime":2478.429,"body":"You can't do this within 10 miles of here."},{"startTime":2478.579,"endTime":2480.859,"body":"Well, how's that going"},{"startTime":2478.579,"endTime":2480.859,"body":"to work in today's world?"},{"startTime":2481.009,"endTime":2482.379,"body":"Before we go to examples."},{"startTime":2482.549,"endTime":2486.989,"body":"Of these companies, I want to talk"},{"startTime":2482.549,"endTime":2486.989,"body":"about one additional case, which is R"},{"startTime":2486.989,"endTime":2489.339,"body":"and D research and development R and D."},{"startTime":2489.489,"endTime":2491.859,"body":"Companies all companies do R and D."},{"startTime":2492.029,"endTime":2494.329,"body":"They might not have a separate"},{"startTime":2492.029,"endTime":2494.329,"body":"swim lane for R and D."},{"startTime":2494.429,"endTime":2498.839,"body":"So we, so in our example, we have a,"},{"startTime":2494.429,"endTime":2498.839,"body":"we have a large, like a leadership"},{"startTime":2498.849,"endTime":2502.109,"body":"combine, like all the services"},{"startTime":2498.849,"endTime":2502.109,"body":"products offered by the company."},{"startTime":2502.339,"endTime":2503.829,"body":"We have a swim lane for products."},{"startTime":2503.979,"endTime":2505.429,"body":"We have a swim lane for services."},{"startTime":2505.579,"endTime":2505.849,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2505.879,"endTime":2509.109,"body":"And those, those generate"},{"startTime":2505.879,"endTime":2509.109,"body":"revenue each of their own, right?"},{"startTime":2509.259,"endTime":2514.339,"body":"We may have a swim lane for R and D,"},{"startTime":2509.259,"endTime":2514.339,"body":"which may be funded by a special pool"},{"startTime":2514.339,"endTime":2517.549,"body":"of money, a special pool of money"},{"startTime":2514.339,"endTime":2517.549,"body":"that doesn't come off the margins"},{"startTime":2517.549,"endTime":2518.629,"body":"for any particular product line."},{"startTime":2518.639,"endTime":2521.619,"body":"Now product lines can engage in R and D."},{"startTime":2521.769,"endTime":2523.049,"body":"And it comes off the margins."},{"startTime":2523.049,"endTime":2526.489,"body":"It's a tax write down it's, it's, it"},{"startTime":2523.049,"endTime":2526.489,"body":"comes off of OPEX, et cetera, et cetera,"},{"startTime":2526.509,"endTime":2529.809,"body":"like a, that that's normal, normal R"},{"startTime":2526.509,"endTime":2529.809,"body":"and D everyone has to do normal R and D."},{"startTime":2530.159,"endTime":2534.089,"body":"Like if, if I'm a product manager"},{"startTime":2530.159,"endTime":2534.089,"body":"and I have a at Brian \u0026 Om's software"},{"startTime":2534.109,"endTime":2538.159,"body":"development firm and we're building"},{"startTime":2534.109,"endTime":2538.159,"body":"mobile games, I might write a story in"},{"startTime":2538.159,"endTime":2544.209,"body":"my backlog that says go figure out new,"},{"startTime":2538.159,"endTime":2544.209,"body":"um, animation technologies and show"},{"startTime":2544.209,"endTime":2549.189,"body":"me some demos and I'm willing to spend"},{"startTime":2544.209,"endTime":2549.189,"body":"two sprints worth of work this quarter."},{"startTime":2549.339,"endTime":2552.819,"body":"I'm willing to spend a month of my"},{"startTime":2549.339,"endTime":2552.819,"body":"development team's effort, whatever"},{"startTime":2552.819,"endTime":2555.709,"body":"that was, let's say my development"},{"startTime":2552.819,"endTime":2555.709,"body":"team costs 10, 000 a sprint."},{"startTime":2555.859,"endTime":2559.549,"body":"I'm willing to spend 20, 000 in R"},{"startTime":2555.859,"endTime":2559.549,"body":"and D money just, just to have a"},{"startTime":2559.549,"endTime":2561.259,"body":"demo of new animation technology."},{"startTime":2561.259,"endTime":2564.569,"body":"So my, my team doesn't look at anything"},{"startTime":2561.259,"endTime":2564.569,"body":"where any technology you're using now."},{"startTime":2564.719,"endTime":2568.499,"body":"They just go out on the market, grab new,"},{"startTime":2564.719,"endTime":2568.499,"body":"grab new things, make new animations,"},{"startTime":2568.499,"endTime":2572.949,"body":"show it to me, show it to me side by side"},{"startTime":2568.499,"endTime":2572.949,"body":"with our current animation to see if I"},{"startTime":2572.959,"endTime":2574.819,"body":"want to just leapfrog our current tech."},{"startTime":2574.969,"endTime":2577.429,"body":"They're effectively"},{"startTime":2574.969,"endTime":2577.429,"body":"developing tech enablers here."},{"startTime":2577.559,"endTime":2577.779,"body":"They are."},{"startTime":2577.779,"endTime":2579.629,"body":"I'm paying for that off the OPEX."},{"startTime":2579.649,"endTime":2580.039,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2580.189,"endTime":2581.859,"body":"Okay, I'm paying for that off the OPEX."},{"startTime":2581.869,"endTime":2582.869,"body":"It's not amortized."},{"startTime":2582.889,"endTime":2585.509,"body":"I'm not, it's not a feature that's"},{"startTime":2582.889,"endTime":2585.509,"body":"going straight into the application."},{"startTime":2585.659,"endTime":2590.379,"body":"I'm paying for that off the OPEX that"},{"startTime":2585.659,"endTime":2590.379,"body":"my OPEX come up comes off of my PNL."},{"startTime":2590.419,"endTime":2591.639,"body":"It comes off the margin."},{"startTime":2591.789,"endTime":2592.099,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2592.289,"endTime":2595.349,"body":"And if I'm throwing out a bunch of"},{"startTime":2592.289,"endTime":2595.349,"body":"terminology that, that, that is new"},{"startTime":2595.349,"endTime":2598.849,"body":"to you, you listen to this podcast"},{"startTime":2595.349,"endTime":2598.849,"body":"please comment if I'm going a little"},{"startTime":2598.849,"endTime":2602.259,"body":"too wild here, but the, the, the"},{"startTime":2598.849,"endTime":2602.259,"body":"margin means I have, I have how much"},{"startTime":2602.259,"endTime":2604.179,"body":"it costs, how much revenue comes in."},{"startTime":2604.329,"endTime":2607.989,"body":"Versus how much it costs to keep"},{"startTime":2604.329,"endTime":2607.989,"body":"the product running in production."},{"startTime":2608.019,"endTime":2611.789,"body":"Like pay all the salaries of my"},{"startTime":2608.019,"endTime":2611.789,"body":"people pay my AWS bill or whatever, my"},{"startTime":2611.789,"endTime":2613.179,"body":"hosting bill or all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2613.329,"endTime":2615.769,"body":"And then the money that's left"},{"startTime":2613.329,"endTime":2615.769,"body":"over my profit that's left over."},{"startTime":2615.909,"endTime":2619.019,"body":"So I'm taking a portion of that profit"},{"startTime":2615.909,"endTime":2619.019,"body":"I'm paying for some R and D research."},{"startTime":2619.169,"endTime":2622.469,"body":"And there's tax implement"},{"startTime":2619.169,"endTime":2622.469,"body":"implications about how I do that."},{"startTime":2622.609,"endTime":2622.899,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2623.239,"endTime":2627.719,"body":"Or, or corporate might come to me as"},{"startTime":2623.239,"endTime":2627.719,"body":"a product manager and say, Hey, Brian,"},{"startTime":2627.869,"endTime":2629.379,"body":"we're giving you a million dollars."},{"startTime":2629.529,"endTime":2631.749,"body":"We're going to write this"},{"startTime":2629.529,"endTime":2631.749,"body":"down corporate level."},{"startTime":2631.879,"endTime":2632.819,"body":"We're going to write it down."},{"startTime":2633.069,"endTime":2636.279,"body":"We're just writing it down on"},{"startTime":2633.069,"endTime":2636.279,"body":"our, on our taxes at the year,"},{"startTime":2636.429,"endTime":2637.659,"body":"completely writing it off."},{"startTime":2637.809,"endTime":2639.709,"body":"And it's a special pool money."},{"startTime":2639.809,"endTime":2643.069,"body":"It doesn't appear on your P and L"},{"startTime":2639.809,"endTime":2643.069,"body":"for your product, but I want you to"},{"startTime":2643.069,"endTime":2648.549,"body":"use this money to spin up a team, to"},{"startTime":2643.069,"endTime":2648.549,"body":"figure out what the next hot game is"},{"startTime":2648.699,"endTime":2650.979,"body":"on the, on the market, B2C, right?"},{"startTime":2651.129,"endTime":2652.269,"body":"So I'm going to use that."},{"startTime":2652.269,"endTime":2653.589,"body":"I'm a higher couple of engineers."},{"startTime":2653.739,"endTime":2655.519,"body":"We're going to experiment some things."},{"startTime":2655.519,"endTime":2659.339,"body":"We're going to experiment on the market,"},{"startTime":2655.519,"endTime":2659.339,"body":"throw the five, six, 10 games out there"},{"startTime":2659.339,"endTime":2662.489,"body":"that are little tiny little games, see"},{"startTime":2659.339,"endTime":2662.489,"body":"which one hits, and then we're going"},{"startTime":2662.489,"endTime":2666.479,"body":"to go deep on that one game and, and,"},{"startTime":2662.489,"endTime":2666.479,"body":"and then when it, when it hits, we're"},{"startTime":2666.479,"endTime":2669.419,"body":"going to pull it in and it'll be its"},{"startTime":2666.479,"endTime":2669.419,"body":"own product line, but all that pre"},{"startTime":2669.419,"endTime":2673.249,"body":"work of figuring out maybe corporate"},{"startTime":2669.419,"endTime":2673.249,"body":"is funding that with R and D dollars."},{"startTime":2673.249,"endTime":2673.549,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2673.879,"endTime":2677.359,"body":"So I, I, I've spent more time than I"},{"startTime":2673.879,"endTime":2677.359,"body":"wanted to setting up the R and D thing."},{"startTime":2677.449,"endTime":2680.909,"body":"So this additional lane"},{"startTime":2677.449,"endTime":2680.909,"body":"of R and D services."},{"startTime":2681.059,"endTime":2683.789,"body":"Can spin up r and d products"},{"startTime":2681.059,"endTime":2683.789,"body":"can spin up r and d."},{"startTime":2684.089,"endTime":2686.999,"body":"Companies that don't know if it's a"},{"startTime":2684.089,"endTime":2686.999,"body":"service or product can spin up r and d."},{"startTime":2686.999,"endTime":2687.179,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2687.399,"endTime":2691.389,"body":"And whether you do it on the out of the"},{"startTime":2687.399,"endTime":2691.389,"body":"margin or whether you do it as a separate"},{"startTime":2691.539,"endTime":2693.189,"body":"line item on your budget or whatever."},{"startTime":2693.429,"endTime":2697.384,"body":"Like some of the ideas of r and d like we"},{"startTime":2693.429,"endTime":2697.384,"body":"talked about earlier Ikea, for example."},{"startTime":2697.384,"endTime":2701.389,"body":"ikea they wanna offer a new service that"},{"startTime":2697.384,"endTime":2701.389,"body":"says we'll have people from the store,"},{"startTime":2701.569,"endTime":2703.039,"body":"we contracted with people from the store."},{"startTime":2703.189,"endTime":2706.699,"body":"They'll come to your house and they'll"},{"startTime":2703.189,"endTime":2706.699,"body":"build the IKEA furniture for you."},{"startTime":2706.849,"endTime":2712.079,"body":"What, what, what cities in America"},{"startTime":2706.849,"endTime":2712.079,"body":"will that service take off in?"},{"startTime":2712.379,"endTime":2714.959,"body":"Well, first, you gotta"},{"startTime":2712.379,"endTime":2714.959,"body":"launch some pilot programs."},{"startTime":2715.109,"endTime":2716.529,"body":"Pick some cities for a pilot program."},{"startTime":2716.879,"endTime":2719.049,"body":"Offer it as a pilot you might"},{"startTime":2716.879,"endTime":2719.049,"body":"do that with R\u0026 D money."},{"startTime":2719.229,"endTime":2721.289,"body":"You might pay for all these"},{"startTime":2719.229,"endTime":2721.289,"body":"salaries with R\u0026 D money."},{"startTime":2721.439,"endTime":2724.459,"body":"You know, the real profits are"},{"startTime":2721.439,"endTime":2724.459,"body":"realized by the store, but , you"},{"startTime":2724.459,"endTime":2726.959,"body":"might, you might decide, Hey, I don't"},{"startTime":2724.459,"endTime":2726.959,"body":"know if we need to do this or not."},{"startTime":2727.129,"endTime":2729.599,"body":"Corporate may decide to do"},{"startTime":2727.129,"endTime":2729.599,"body":"that and not any of the stores."},{"startTime":2729.599,"endTime":2730.579,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2730.729,"endTime":2731.669,"body":"Yeah, that's very true."},{"startTime":2732.019,"endTime":2736.119,"body":"So again, R and D can be, like you said,"},{"startTime":2732.019,"endTime":2736.119,"body":"like different forms of R and D, right?"},{"startTime":2736.459,"endTime":2740.859,"body":"But all of that is internal"},{"startTime":2736.459,"endTime":2740.859,"body":"money and it's all basically a."},{"startTime":2741.009,"endTime":2742.109,"body":"What's the word I'm looking for?"},{"startTime":2742.119,"endTime":2744.279,"body":"It's basically on the cost"},{"startTime":2742.119,"endTime":2744.279,"body":"accounting side, right?"},{"startTime":2744.609,"endTime":2748.579,"body":"You're it's in the it's in the liabilities"},{"startTime":2744.609,"endTime":2748.579,"body":"column at the end of the day, right?"},{"startTime":2748.729,"endTime":2751.339,"body":"Because because it might be just"},{"startTime":2748.729,"endTime":2751.339,"body":"fundamental work that will pay"},{"startTime":2751.339,"endTime":2753.859,"body":"off in the future like like space"},{"startTime":2751.339,"endTime":2753.859,"body":"travel and thinking about there's"},{"startTime":2753.879,"endTime":2755.189,"body":"a lot Of R\u0026 D in space travel."},{"startTime":2755.529,"endTime":2759.149,"body":"I mean it also it might go nowhere"},{"startTime":2755.529,"endTime":2759.149,"body":"at least just like the the accounting"},{"startTime":2759.429,"endTime":2761.859,"body":"podcast we had with With Newton."},{"startTime":2761.949,"endTime":2766.804,"body":"Yes He his thing that was kind"},{"startTime":2761.949,"endTime":2766.804,"body":"of revelatory for me was if"},{"startTime":2766.804,"endTime":2770.314,"body":"you're, if it has no value after"},{"startTime":2766.804,"endTime":2770.314,"body":"the year's over, it's sunk cost."},{"startTime":2770.334,"endTime":2771.174,"body":"You just write it off."},{"startTime":2771.214,"endTime":2772.284,"body":"Yeah, it's done."},{"startTime":2772.444,"endTime":2772.584,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2772.584,"endTime":2772.864,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2773.064,"endTime":2774.984,"body":"Which is, which is, we might"},{"startTime":2773.064,"endTime":2774.984,"body":"experiment with something"},{"startTime":2774.984,"endTime":2775.864,"body":"and find out, you know what?"},{"startTime":2775.904,"endTime":2777.024,"body":"We don't want to do anything with this."},{"startTime":2777.174,"endTime":2781.744,"body":"We we have the learning and we could"},{"startTime":2777.174,"endTime":2781.744,"body":"build features on the CapEx with"},{"startTime":2781.744,"endTime":2786.004,"body":"this, but we don't want to, it's not"},{"startTime":2781.744,"endTime":2786.004,"body":"a high priority or we don't like it."},{"startTime":2786.154,"endTime":2786.944,"body":"We tried something."},{"startTime":2786.944,"endTime":2787.724,"body":"We don't like it."},{"startTime":2787.874,"endTime":2788.254,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2788.284,"endTime":2790.814,"body":"It just gets written off as"},{"startTime":2788.284,"endTime":2790.814,"body":"no value in the years over."},{"startTime":2790.964,"endTime":2791.624,"body":"Super easy."},{"startTime":2791.774,"endTime":2792.674,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2792.694,"endTime":2796.344,"body":"So come, come back to this model,"},{"startTime":2792.694,"endTime":2796.344,"body":"the companies that do this, like"},{"startTime":2796.444,"endTime":2799.674,"body":"not necessarily naming companies,"},{"startTime":2796.444,"endTime":2799.674,"body":"but the sorts of companies that do"},{"startTime":2799.674,"endTime":2802.894,"body":"this, you mentioned Ikea as a name,"},{"startTime":2799.674,"endTime":2802.894,"body":"I guess that's a good name, right?"},{"startTime":2802.904,"endTime":2803.484,"body":"For a company."},{"startTime":2803.634,"endTime":2807.944,"body":"I say about Amazon here providing"},{"startTime":2803.634,"endTime":2807.944,"body":"a platform, there's R and D there."},{"startTime":2807.954,"endTime":2810.424,"body":"I mean, they're, they're"},{"startTime":2807.954,"endTime":2810.424,"body":"doing POCs and figuring out."},{"startTime":2810.729,"endTime":2812.199,"body":"Whatever happened to the drone delivery?"},{"startTime":2812.199,"endTime":2814.639,"body":"They were gonna do drone delivery"},{"startTime":2812.199,"endTime":2814.639,"body":"I would imagine there's a whole"},{"startTime":2814.639,"endTime":2815.399,"body":"lot of I thought they tried it."},{"startTime":2815.489,"endTime":2816.249,"body":"I thought they tried it."},{"startTime":2816.249,"endTime":2819.709,"body":"There's a lot of R\u0026 D money tied"},{"startTime":2816.249,"endTime":2819.709,"body":"up in they gotta buy the physical"},{"startTime":2819.709,"endTime":2823.859,"body":"drones, and they have to choose a a"},{"startTime":2819.709,"endTime":2823.859,"body":"city that they could work in yeah,"},{"startTime":2823.899,"endTime":2825.279,"body":"there's a whole bunch of stuff."},{"startTime":2825.479,"endTime":2828.449,"body":"Yeah, and they, in the end,"},{"startTime":2825.479,"endTime":2828.449,"body":"for whatever reason, could be"},{"startTime":2828.449,"endTime":2830.189,"body":"regulatory it doesn't go anywhere."},{"startTime":2830.529,"endTime":2830.969,"body":"It could be."},{"startTime":2831.039,"endTime":2833.579,"body":"Or it could be that this, they"},{"startTime":2831.039,"endTime":2833.579,"body":"actually can tap into this."},{"startTime":2833.629,"endTime":2834.039,"body":"You don't know."},{"startTime":2834.189,"endTime":2834.489,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2834.639,"endTime":2837.989,"body":"Just like driverless trucks that"},{"startTime":2834.639,"endTime":2837.989,"body":"they're looking into, right."},{"startTime":2837.999,"endTime":2840.419,"body":"For, for delivering between warehouses."},{"startTime":2840.569,"endTime":2843.089,"body":"So yeah, there's a lot of R and"},{"startTime":2840.569,"endTime":2843.089,"body":"D and a lot of sectors like that."},{"startTime":2843.239,"endTime":2846.199,"body":"But that like just to kind of wrap"},{"startTime":2843.239,"endTime":2846.199,"body":"up cause I'm kind of all over the"},{"startTime":2846.199,"endTime":2847.509,"body":"place with this R and D category."},{"startTime":2847.509,"endTime":2850.179,"body":"Cause it's really like I don't"},{"startTime":2847.509,"endTime":2850.179,"body":"know how many software development"},{"startTime":2850.179,"endTime":2854.039,"body":"companies are dabbling in, in, in like"},{"startTime":2850.179,"endTime":2854.039,"body":"augmented reality, virtual reality."},{"startTime":2854.119,"endTime":2856.219,"body":"Like Meta had a, had a"},{"startTime":2854.119,"endTime":2856.219,"body":"big thing a while back."},{"startTime":2856.219,"endTime":2857.589,"body":"Like all that's out of R and D money."},{"startTime":2857.599,"endTime":2859.569,"body":"They don't know if that's ever"},{"startTime":2857.599,"endTime":2859.569,"body":"going to make money for them or not."},{"startTime":2859.719,"endTime":2860.969,"body":"Yeah, but you gotta do that."},{"startTime":2860.989,"endTime":2863.999,"body":"You gotta, you gotta roll the dice"},{"startTime":2860.989,"endTime":2863.999,"body":"a few times before you hit the"},{"startTime":2863.999,"endTime":2865.209,"body":"number you're looking for, right?"},{"startTime":2865.219,"endTime":2866.709,"body":"So it makes sense to me."},{"startTime":2866.909,"endTime":2870.789,"body":"But anyway, like we, we said that we"},{"startTime":2866.909,"endTime":2870.789,"body":"would give some examples of companies"},{"startTime":2870.899,"endTime":2875.049,"body":"that, that, that had both a product"},{"startTime":2870.899,"endTime":2875.049,"body":"and a service component the first one"},{"startTime":2875.239,"endTime":2876.719,"body":"that I want to talk about is Intuit."},{"startTime":2876.869,"endTime":2879.869,"body":"Intuit is a good one because a"},{"startTime":2876.869,"endTime":2879.869,"body":"lot of people talk about Intuit"},{"startTime":2879.919,"endTime":2881.679,"body":"on the in the product space."},{"startTime":2881.829,"endTime":2882.139,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2882.169,"endTime":2888.909,"body":"They, they they give accolades to Intuit"},{"startTime":2882.169,"endTime":2888.909,"body":"for its financial software products."},{"startTime":2889.059,"endTime":2891.379,"body":"You know, TurboTax, QuickBooks, basically."},{"startTime":2891.389,"endTime":2891.809,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2891.959,"endTime":2895.519,"body":"You know, so the, the, the actual"},{"startTime":2891.959,"endTime":2895.519,"body":"development of those products,"},{"startTime":2895.739,"endTime":2897.829,"body":"TurboTax, QuickBooks, is one thing."},{"startTime":2897.839,"endTime":2900.599,"body":"Like, they have development teams full"},{"startTime":2897.839,"endTime":2900.599,"body":"time development teams that maintain them."},{"startTime":2900.939,"endTime":2903.059,"body":"Update them when the tax"},{"startTime":2900.939,"endTime":2903.059,"body":"code changes, whatnot."},{"startTime":2903.209,"endTime":2907.449,"body":"But then they have actual accountants"},{"startTime":2903.209,"endTime":2907.449,"body":"and financial management people that"},{"startTime":2907.489,"endTime":2912.219,"body":"they can review your tax returns and"},{"startTime":2907.489,"endTime":2912.219,"body":"review your your books and whatnot"},{"startTime":2912.229,"endTime":2913.749,"body":"that, that can actually work with you."},{"startTime":2913.899,"endTime":2915.949,"body":"So that's, that's a, they"},{"startTime":2913.899,"endTime":2915.949,"body":"have a services component."},{"startTime":2916.099,"endTime":2918.659,"body":"That works with their product"},{"startTime":2916.099,"endTime":2918.659,"body":"component and those services"},{"startTime":2918.669,"endTime":2920.009,"body":"people use their products."},{"startTime":2920.159,"endTime":2922.709,"body":"Yeah, and then the other third"},{"startTime":2920.159,"endTime":2922.709,"body":"tier they have is some sort"},{"startTime":2922.709,"endTime":2925.129,"body":"of What am I trying to say?"},{"startTime":2925.159,"endTime":2929.119,"body":"Like Amazon has the capability for"},{"startTime":2925.159,"endTime":2929.119,"body":"you to file your own taxes, right?"},{"startTime":2929.139,"endTime":2930.719,"body":"Directly from their product."},{"startTime":2930.869,"endTime":2932.319,"body":"Which is again a service, right?"},{"startTime":2932.329,"endTime":2933.869,"body":"That you value as a consumer."},{"startTime":2933.919,"endTime":2935.889,"body":"So that's a good example, I think."},{"startTime":2935.899,"endTime":2939.079,"body":"Intuit is a good example of a"},{"startTime":2935.899,"endTime":2939.079,"body":"company that has product service mix."},{"startTime":2939.229,"endTime":2942.959,"body":"Believe it or not Atlassian other than"},{"startTime":2939.229,"endTime":2942.959,"body":"hosting our favorite software to hate"},{"startTime":2942.959,"endTime":2949.829,"body":"on Jira uh, like they like Atlassian"},{"startTime":2942.959,"endTime":2949.829,"body":"also has a consulting wing Training wing"},{"startTime":2949.879,"endTime":2953.979,"body":"support services like you theoretically"},{"startTime":2949.879,"endTime":2953.979,"body":"you could call I would never call someone"},{"startTime":2953.979,"endTime":2957.199,"body":"in Atlassian But theoretically you"},{"startTime":2953.979,"endTime":2957.199,"body":"can call them they have their product,"},{"startTime":2957.239,"endTime":2961.489,"body":"which, which people know and hate, but"},{"startTime":2957.239,"endTime":2961.489,"body":"then they have many, many services."},{"startTime":2961.519,"endTime":2965.879,"body":"And I'm sure they always have R and D"},{"startTime":2961.519,"endTime":2965.879,"body":"going on and not just R and D in the"},{"startTime":2965.879,"endTime":2967.629,"body":"form of buying actual good companies."},{"startTime":2967.819,"endTime":2969.309,"body":"Like they have actual R and D."},{"startTime":2969.359,"endTime":2970.179,"body":"I don't know what they do."},{"startTime":2970.359,"endTime":2973.339,"body":"They don't enhance Jira,"},{"startTime":2970.359,"endTime":2973.339,"body":"but they do something."},{"startTime":2973.369,"endTime":2974.079,"body":"I don't know what they do."},{"startTime":2974.229,"endTime":2976.769,"body":"I think in that vein, there are"},{"startTime":2974.229,"endTime":2976.769,"body":"a lot of companies that are, that"},{"startTime":2976.769,"endTime":2980.219,"body":"fall in that same category, like"},{"startTime":2976.769,"endTime":2980.219,"body":"Salesforce or companies like that,"},{"startTime":2980.219,"endTime":2981.449,"body":"SAP, I mean, they have the product."},{"startTime":2981.459,"endTime":2984.899,"body":"They also have services and"},{"startTime":2981.459,"endTime":2984.899,"body":"increasingly over history."},{"startTime":2984.899,"endTime":2985.729,"body":"What you've seen is."},{"startTime":2985.784,"endTime":2990.114,"body":"Their margins have gone up"},{"startTime":2985.784,"endTime":2990.114,"body":"on the services as opposed to"},{"startTime":2990.114,"endTime":2992.074,"body":"just simply sales of products."},{"startTime":2992.094,"endTime":2992.364,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2992.364,"endTime":2992.584,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2992.734,"endTime":2995.024,"body":"I would imagine Salesforce"},{"startTime":2992.734,"endTime":2995.024,"body":"probably is that way too, because"},{"startTime":2995.024,"endTime":2998.244,"body":"Salesforce, when they first debuted,"},{"startTime":2995.024,"endTime":2998.244,"body":"there was nobody in their market."},{"startTime":2998.244,"endTime":3001.794,"body":"Now their market is just"},{"startTime":2998.244,"endTime":3001.794,"body":"jammed with competitors."},{"startTime":3002.004,"endTime":3004.594,"body":"And I would imagine that"},{"startTime":3002.004,"endTime":3004.594,"body":"there, I don't know."},{"startTime":3004.594,"endTime":3007.394,"body":"I probably, I don't know if this is,"},{"startTime":3004.594,"endTime":3007.394,"body":"I don't know if I can even research"},{"startTime":3007.394,"endTime":3011.794,"body":"this, but I would expect that if I got"},{"startTime":3007.394,"endTime":3011.794,"body":"a peek into their financials, I would"},{"startTime":3011.794,"endTime":3016.304,"body":"find that their profits from product"},{"startTime":3011.794,"endTime":3016.304,"body":"probably are pretty stable, steady, but"},{"startTime":3016.304,"endTime":3018.714,"body":"product, but profits from their service."},{"startTime":3018.864,"endTime":3021.634,"body":"Probably are where they"},{"startTime":3018.864,"endTime":3021.634,"body":"are making a larger margin."},{"startTime":3021.834,"endTime":3024.834,"body":"Yeah, again, that's true of a"},{"startTime":3021.834,"endTime":3024.834,"body":"lot of companies like that in"},{"startTime":3025.054,"endTime":3027.244,"body":"that same Bracket, so to speak."},{"startTime":3027.244,"endTime":3031.194,"body":"I think about Companies from early"},{"startTime":3027.244,"endTime":3031.194,"body":"in my career, Citrix is a great one"},{"startTime":3031.224,"endTime":3033.834,"body":"because Citrix, it was like their"},{"startTime":3031.224,"endTime":3033.834,"body":"consultants, their people that"},{"startTime":3033.834,"endTime":3036.834,"body":"actually could log on and tell you why"},{"startTime":3033.834,"endTime":3036.834,"body":"things were not working and whatever"},{"startTime":3037.084,"endTime":3039.104,"body":"those people, like they were gold."},{"startTime":3039.114,"endTime":3042.164,"body":"They were, they were, they got"},{"startTime":3039.114,"endTime":3042.164,"body":"you to solve the problem working"},{"startTime":3042.164,"endTime":3043.464,"body":"with them pretty effectively."},{"startTime":3043.464,"endTime":3044.194,"body":"So I do agree."},{"startTime":3044.194,"endTime":3045.344,"body":"Citrix is a good example."},{"startTime":3045.494,"endTime":3047.764,"body":"Tableau is another great, great example."},{"startTime":3047.794,"endTime":3051.684,"body":"You know, the people that you can like"},{"startTime":3047.794,"endTime":3051.684,"body":"actual experts in data visualization"},{"startTime":3051.684,"endTime":3053.334,"body":"and their products, taking your data."},{"startTime":3053.484,"endTime":3055.034,"body":"And visualizing with their products."},{"startTime":3055.084,"endTime":3055.524,"body":"Great one."},{"startTime":3055.574,"endTime":3058.864,"body":"They pretty much were kind of"},{"startTime":3055.574,"endTime":3058.864,"body":"head and shoulders above the rest."},{"startTime":3058.874,"endTime":3062.494,"body":"But I think the, that field is"},{"startTime":3058.874,"endTime":3062.494,"body":"also getting crowded now with other"},{"startTime":3062.554,"endTime":3064.714,"body":"players in there, Microsoft included."},{"startTime":3064.864,"endTime":3067.104,"body":"we already talked about Ikea and BMW."},{"startTime":3067.204,"endTime":3068.354,"body":"We mentioned those specifically."},{"startTime":3068.614,"endTime":3069.854,"body":"BMW is a great example."},{"startTime":3069.864,"endTime":3073.689,"body":"Cause again, that like there's, there's"},{"startTime":3069.864,"endTime":3073.689,"body":"a product that I think of, I think"},{"startTime":3073.689,"endTime":3077.889,"body":"of anybody automotive as siloed where"},{"startTime":3073.689,"endTime":3077.889,"body":"the product division is over here and"},{"startTime":3077.889,"endTime":3079.349,"body":"the service division is over here."},{"startTime":3079.359,"endTime":3081.959,"body":"Service slash distribution is over here."},{"startTime":3082.109,"endTime":3086.659,"body":"Because you also have, I don't know if"},{"startTime":3082.109,"endTime":3086.659,"body":"we mentioned the service being like your"},{"startTime":3086.679,"endTime":3088.469,"body":"car servicing, your car maintenance."},{"startTime":3088.619,"endTime":3092.653,"body":"Taking in for oil changes and checkups"},{"startTime":3088.619,"endTime":3092.653,"body":"and stuff like that that's a regular job."},{"startTime":3092.804,"endTime":3099.144,"body":"maintenance service that BMW offers via"},{"startTime":3092.804,"endTime":3099.144,"body":"its dealerships or any car manufacturer,"},{"startTime":3099.144,"endTime":3100.964,"body":"any, any, anybody Ikea is same thing."},{"startTime":3100.984,"endTime":3106.044,"body":"Ikea, the, the, the people that decide"},{"startTime":3100.984,"endTime":3106.044,"body":"we're going, we're going to produce"},{"startTime":3106.074,"endTime":3111.434,"body":"this dresser or end table or whatever,"},{"startTime":3106.074,"endTime":3111.434,"body":"or Oh, we, we we really need to break"},{"startTime":3111.434,"endTime":3114.984,"body":"into the home couch market or whatever."},{"startTime":3114.984,"endTime":3115.984,"body":"We need to make beds."},{"startTime":3116.154,"endTime":3119.034,"body":"Like those people that spin up new"},{"startTime":3116.154,"endTime":3119.034,"body":"products are different from the"},{"startTime":3119.034,"endTime":3121.024,"body":"individuals that manage the stores."},{"startTime":3121.174,"endTime":3124.694,"body":"That sell the products I think about"},{"startTime":3121.174,"endTime":3124.694,"body":"that people deciding what products to"},{"startTime":3124.694,"endTime":3128.184,"body":"create and how many of them Versus the"},{"startTime":3124.694,"endTime":3128.184,"body":"people that run the stores and decide"},{"startTime":3128.184,"endTime":3133.404,"body":"well the store here in tampa is going"},{"startTime":3128.184,"endTime":3133.404,"body":"to offer You know free delivery within"},{"startTime":3133.404,"endTime":3137.654,"body":"20 miles of our home store location"},{"startTime":3133.404,"endTime":3137.654,"body":"And we're going to offer the ability to"},{"startTime":3137.664,"endTime":3142.114,"body":"set up your furniture For a service fee"},{"startTime":3137.664,"endTime":3142.114,"body":"and we're gonna offer something else."},{"startTime":3142.114,"endTime":3142.664,"body":"I don't know what else."},{"startTime":3142.924,"endTime":3146.134,"body":"Yeah, I think you're right that that"},{"startTime":3142.924,"endTime":3146.134,"body":"model is different, though, because"},{"startTime":3146.164,"endTime":3150.084,"body":"in that specific instance, it's"},{"startTime":3146.164,"endTime":3150.084,"body":"not even there's their employees"},{"startTime":3150.094,"endTime":3151.584,"body":"who come to your home to set it up."},{"startTime":3151.884,"endTime":3154.644,"body":"They sub it out to"},{"startTime":3151.884,"endTime":3154.644,"body":"external vendors, right?"},{"startTime":3154.794,"endTime":3154.984,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3154.994,"endTime":3156.234,"body":"So that's an interesting model."},{"startTime":3156.234,"endTime":3160.578,"body":"Presumably they've got their"},{"startTime":3156.234,"endTime":3160.578,"body":"margins are above the waterline."},{"startTime":3160.718,"endTime":3164.458,"body":"We haven't even gotten to services of"},{"startTime":3160.718,"endTime":3164.458,"body":"services or subcontracting services."},{"startTime":3164.458,"endTime":3165.618,"body":"Like we haven't even gotten to that one."},{"startTime":3165.618,"endTime":3168.388,"body":"But the, the Ikea model is"},{"startTime":3165.618,"endTime":3168.388,"body":"interesting because like they they"},{"startTime":3168.388,"endTime":3169.668,"body":"have a restaurant in their store."},{"startTime":3169.668,"endTime":3173.328,"body":"who, who decided like, Oh, we're, we're"},{"startTime":3169.668,"endTime":3173.328,"body":"just going to open a restaurant in our"},{"startTime":3173.328,"endTime":3177.028,"body":"store as an additional service, you know?"},{"startTime":3177.048,"endTime":3179.413,"body":"So while you're shopping, you"},{"startTime":3177.048,"endTime":3179.413,"body":"can get food in our store."},{"startTime":3179.563,"endTime":3183.103,"body":"You know, and like eat a bunch of cinnamon"},{"startTime":3179.563,"endTime":3183.103,"body":"buns and sit on couches that are made"},{"startTime":3183.103,"endTime":3186.073,"body":"out of cloth I don't know who thought"},{"startTime":3183.103,"endTime":3186.073,"body":"that was a great idea It works for them."},{"startTime":3186.103,"endTime":3186.753,"body":"It works for them."},{"startTime":3186.753,"endTime":3189.153,"body":"He keeps people in the"},{"startTime":3186.753,"endTime":3189.153,"body":"store for longer, I guess"},{"startTime":3189.303,"endTime":3193.543,"body":"the other company  is FedEx that we"},{"startTime":3189.303,"endTime":3193.543,"body":"talked about before the podcast FedEx"},{"startTime":3193.543,"endTime":3197.043,"body":"you wouldn't think of because you"},{"startTime":3193.543,"endTime":3197.043,"body":"think, well, if there are logistics,"},{"startTime":3197.073,"endTime":3199.753,"body":"transportation company, like they've"},{"startTime":3197.073,"endTime":3199.753,"body":"got the trucks and the planes and"},{"startTime":3199.753,"endTime":3206.043,"body":"stuff that takes packages, like that"},{"startTime":3199.753,"endTime":3206.043,"body":"seems pretty purely service delivery."},{"startTime":3206.318,"endTime":3210.408,"body":"To me until you think that, Oh, well, the"},{"startTime":3206.318,"endTime":3210.408,"body":"entire FedEx system actually is built on"},{"startTime":3210.428,"endTime":3215.708,"body":"a platform of software built by a platform"},{"startTime":3210.428,"endTime":3215.708,"body":"team, basically a service delivery,"},{"startTime":3215.898,"endTime":3218.148,"body":"I'm sorry, a product delivery team."},{"startTime":3218.148,"endTime":3223.978,"body":"That is their product is a platform"},{"startTime":3218.148,"endTime":3223.978,"body":"used by internal employees of FedEx."},{"startTime":3224.188,"endTime":3227.118,"body":"And you, as a customer outside"},{"startTime":3224.188,"endTime":3227.118,"body":"the external customer, you"},{"startTime":3227.118,"endTime":3228.528,"body":"have a window on the web."},{"startTime":3228.678,"endTime":3231.743,"body":"So you're talking about tracking,"},{"startTime":3228.678,"endTime":3231.743,"body":"buying stuff too short, right?"},{"startTime":3231.743,"endTime":3236.248,"body":"But the majority of their system"},{"startTime":3231.743,"endTime":3236.248,"body":"is internal to the company."},{"startTime":3236.398,"endTime":3237.318,"body":"Yeah, it makes sense."},{"startTime":3237.328,"endTime":3237.568,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3237.568,"endTime":3241.018,"body":"I mean, think about what they"},{"startTime":3237.568,"endTime":3241.018,"body":"do on a global basis, right?"},{"startTime":3241.018,"endTime":3243.668,"body":"I mean, they have to move"},{"startTime":3241.018,"endTime":3243.668,"body":"stuff all over the place."},{"startTime":3243.668,"endTime":3246.618,"body":"So logistically they need"},{"startTime":3243.668,"endTime":3246.618,"body":"to keep track of everything."},{"startTime":3246.928,"endTime":3248.838,"body":"They have their own fleet, right."},{"startTime":3248.898,"endTime":3250.248,"body":"Or planes and whatever else."},{"startTime":3250.398,"endTime":3253.478,"body":"So yeah, it makes sense for them to have"},{"startTime":3250.398,"endTime":3253.478,"body":"a platform where they can track all of"},{"startTime":3253.478,"endTime":3255.758,"body":"this logistical stuff to ensure that."},{"startTime":3255.908,"endTime":3257.938,"body":"Something gets from A"},{"startTime":3255.908,"endTime":3257.938,"body":"to B in a timely manner."},{"startTime":3258.088,"endTime":3259.618,"body":"But they also sell products."},{"startTime":3259.768,"endTime":3263.188,"body":"before we dip into the products that"},{"startTime":3259.768,"endTime":3263.188,"body":"they sell, the interesting thing"},{"startTime":3263.198,"endTime":3267.688,"body":"about FedEx is it seems more, it seems"},{"startTime":3263.198,"endTime":3267.688,"body":"that we're a lot of the tech products"},{"startTime":3267.688,"endTime":3269.478,"body":"and tech companies on this list."},{"startTime":3269.628,"endTime":3274.978,"body":"FedEx, I feel is more of the service"},{"startTime":3269.628,"endTime":3274.978,"body":"led that affects the product roadmap to"},{"startTime":3274.978,"endTime":3276.858,"body":"say, Hey, we want to offer this service."},{"startTime":3277.008,"endTime":3280.418,"body":"But in order to do that, we, we need"},{"startTime":3277.008,"endTime":3280.418,"body":"to be able to track all the packages."},{"startTime":3280.608,"endTime":3284.378,"body":"Hey, product manager, implement"},{"startTime":3280.608,"endTime":3284.378,"body":"some kind of tracking for us."},{"startTime":3284.378,"endTime":3286.098,"body":"How can, how can you"},{"startTime":3284.378,"endTime":3286.098,"body":"solve this problem for us?"},{"startTime":3286.098,"endTime":3288.918,"body":"We need to know within a certain"},{"startTime":3286.098,"endTime":3288.918,"body":"amount of time when the package"},{"startTime":3288.918,"endTime":3289.598,"body":"is going to be delivered."},{"startTime":3289.598,"endTime":3293.298,"body":"And the product will look at what"},{"startTime":3289.598,"endTime":3293.298,"body":"the service is trying to deliver,"},{"startTime":3293.298,"endTime":3296.028,"body":"and where the service is trying"},{"startTime":3293.298,"endTime":3296.028,"body":"to go, and then start building"},{"startTime":3296.028,"endTime":3297.758,"body":"things that help the service."},{"startTime":3297.928,"endTime":3303.808,"body":"So I feel it's, it's product, it's product"},{"startTime":3297.928,"endTime":3303.808,"body":"following, The service more than it is the"},{"startTime":3303.808,"endTime":3305.968,"body":"service kind of being an equal partner."},{"startTime":3305.988,"endTime":3308.298,"body":"Yeah, right I don't know if that's"},{"startTime":3305.988,"endTime":3308.298,"body":"really coming across I know what you"},{"startTime":3308.298,"endTime":3313.108,"body":"mean I mean Just the ability for you to"},{"startTime":3308.298,"endTime":3313.108,"body":"go online on their web page and say i'm"},{"startTime":3313.108,"endTime":3317.423,"body":"trying to ship this right and they and"},{"startTime":3313.108,"endTime":3317.423,"body":"you can go In and enter some Raw data."},{"startTime":3317.573,"endTime":3318.843,"body":"Here's how big my package is."},{"startTime":3318.843,"endTime":3321.983,"body":"Here's how much it weighs roughly"},{"startTime":3318.843,"endTime":3321.983,"body":"and they can tell you to go from A"},{"startTime":3321.983,"endTime":3325.093,"body":"to B, it's going to cost you this"},{"startTime":3321.983,"endTime":3325.093,"body":"much that platform because you're not"},{"startTime":3325.093,"endTime":3327.603,"body":"obliged to use their service at all."},{"startTime":3327.603,"endTime":3329.433,"body":"After that, you could say,"},{"startTime":3327.603,"endTime":3329.433,"body":"well, this is too expensive."},{"startTime":3329.583,"endTime":3333.683,"body":"I'll just use the post office, which"},{"startTime":3329.583,"endTime":3333.683,"body":"has a similar but very different model."},{"startTime":3333.983,"endTime":3336.853,"body":"Similar in that they're also in"},{"startTime":3333.983,"endTime":3336.853,"body":"the logistical business, right?"},{"startTime":3336.923,"endTime":3339.253,"body":"But you know, I don't think"},{"startTime":3336.923,"endTime":3339.253,"body":"they do as good a job."},{"startTime":3339.268,"endTime":3341.058,"body":"At tracking all of these things."},{"startTime":3341.058,"endTime":3341.148,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3341.148,"endTime":3342.498,"body":"As, as the other, I don't know."},{"startTime":3342.498,"endTime":3345.138,"body":"You could argue it's because"},{"startTime":3342.498,"endTime":3345.138,"body":"one's for profit, the other's not."},{"startTime":3345.198,"endTime":3348.248,"body":"You could argue that you, I mean, you"},{"startTime":3345.198,"endTime":3348.248,"body":"could argue that, but I think you'd"},{"startTime":3348.248,"endTime":3349.808,"body":"be skimming over a lot of nuance."},{"startTime":3349.813,"endTime":3349.873,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3349.898,"endTime":3349.988,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3349.993,"endTime":3353.018,"body":"That I, that I want, that I want"},{"startTime":3349.993,"endTime":3353.018,"body":"to talk about, which is, well, how"},{"startTime":3353.023,"endTime":3355.058,"body":"would we launch a FedEx like today?"},{"startTime":3355.238,"endTime":3359.078,"body":"Well, we, we, we'd start with one"},{"startTime":3355.238,"endTime":3359.078,"body":"store and the customer wouldn't see"},{"startTime":3359.078,"endTime":3360.968,"body":"any of the, our backend software."},{"startTime":3361.148,"endTime":3361.358,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3361.538,"endTime":3364.598,"body":"You know, we, we'd have a, a very"},{"startTime":3361.538,"endTime":3364.598,"body":"basic product here, here's a package."},{"startTime":3364.748,"endTime":3369.458,"body":"And then API integrations with FedEx,"},{"startTime":3364.748,"endTime":3369.458,"body":"UPS, postal service, whoever's picking"},{"startTime":3369.458,"endTime":3373.428,"body":"up the package and and people have"},{"startTime":3369.458,"endTime":3373.428,"body":"to come to our store to find out"},{"startTime":3373.638,"endTime":3374.958,"body":"where their package is at, right?"},{"startTime":3375.128,"endTime":3380.758,"body":"And then as our, as our service"},{"startTime":3375.128,"endTime":3380.758,"body":"grows, now we offer a web portal."},{"startTime":3380.908,"endTime":3381.128,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3381.128,"endTime":3383.238,"body":"Now we have a product that's"},{"startTime":3381.128,"endTime":3383.238,"body":"following our service."},{"startTime":3383.348,"endTime":3385.098,"body":"Well, people don't want to"},{"startTime":3383.348,"endTime":3385.098,"body":"come to the store anymore."},{"startTime":3385.108,"endTime":3385.858,"body":"The services."},{"startTime":3386.008,"endTime":3389.178,"body":"You come to the store, you ship"},{"startTime":3386.008,"endTime":3389.178,"body":"the package, it goes to wherever"},{"startTime":3389.178,"endTime":3392.358,"body":"you want to go, you pay some"},{"startTime":3389.178,"endTime":3392.358,"body":"money, that's it, end of story."},{"startTime":3392.508,"endTime":3395.638,"body":"Now people say, well that's great, but"},{"startTime":3392.508,"endTime":3395.638,"body":"I don't want to have to come back to the"},{"startTime":3395.638,"endTime":3397.018,"body":"store to find out where my package is."},{"startTime":3397.168,"endTime":3400.038,"body":"So now, product develops a web portal."},{"startTime":3400.188,"endTime":3403.368,"body":"This number, you can punch in the"},{"startTime":3400.188,"endTime":3403.368,"body":"number on the web portal, you find"},{"startTime":3403.368,"endTime":3407.228,"body":"out where your package is in the world"},{"startTime":3403.368,"endTime":3407.228,"body":"or whatever, and then you have it."},{"startTime":3407.238,"endTime":3411.388,"body":"So like, we started with a store, And then"},{"startTime":3407.238,"endTime":3411.388,"body":"now the product is following the service."},{"startTime":3411.428,"endTime":3415.058,"body":"Yeah, that's, that's an interesting"},{"startTime":3411.428,"endTime":3415.058,"body":"model to me is the product following"},{"startTime":3415.058,"endTime":3417.638,"body":"the service, we talked real"},{"startTime":3415.058,"endTime":3417.638,"body":"early in the podcast about like."},{"startTime":3417.788,"endTime":3420.858,"body":"You know, late nineties, early 2000s"},{"startTime":3417.788,"endTime":3420.858,"body":"development where like, Oh, I'm"},{"startTime":3420.858,"endTime":3422.558,"body":"going to sell a bunch of Dell PCs."},{"startTime":3422.558,"endTime":3426.038,"body":"And then I spin up my team and they"},{"startTime":3422.558,"endTime":3426.038,"body":"go deliver the Dell PCs or whatever."},{"startTime":3426.038,"endTime":3428.958,"body":"It's like the service is kind of"},{"startTime":3426.038,"endTime":3428.958,"body":"following the product in those models."},{"startTime":3429.108,"endTime":3430.958,"body":"This is more interesting"},{"startTime":3429.108,"endTime":3430.958,"body":"to me to talk about."},{"startTime":3431.248,"endTime":3433.878,"body":"Maybe if you want us to do a"},{"startTime":3431.248,"endTime":3433.878,"body":"part two of this one, we'll,"},{"startTime":3433.888,"endTime":3435.578,"body":"we'll start with services."},{"startTime":3435.728,"endTime":3439.148,"body":"That follow products like"},{"startTime":3435.728,"endTime":3439.148,"body":"the, the, the Airbnb."},{"startTime":3439.158,"endTime":3442.748,"body":"No I was going to say Airbnb, but also"},{"startTime":3439.158,"endTime":3442.748,"body":"Uber, Uber's an interesting one because"},{"startTime":3443.068,"endTime":3445.698,"body":"Uber, when they want to break into a"},{"startTime":3443.068,"endTime":3445.698,"body":"new market, they'll spin up a team."},{"startTime":3445.848,"endTime":3450.768,"body":"In that hyper local market to start"},{"startTime":3445.848,"endTime":3450.768,"body":"figuring out you know maybe it's maybe"},{"startTime":3450.768,"endTime":3453.168,"body":"it's the food delivery apps that do that."},{"startTime":3453.168,"endTime":3454.518,"body":"Uber, Uber eats or something."},{"startTime":3454.758,"endTime":3455.098,"body":"Maybe."},{"startTime":3455.098,"endTime":3457.928,"body":"I can't remember, but DoorDash or"},{"startTime":3455.098,"endTime":3457.928,"body":"whatever, maybe it's those apps."},{"startTime":3458.008,"endTime":3462.078,"body":"One of these companies that"},{"startTime":3458.008,"endTime":3462.078,"body":"relies on hyper local markets."},{"startTime":3462.168,"endTime":3465.758,"body":"They have to spin up a team to test"},{"startTime":3462.168,"endTime":3465.758,"body":"out their product in that local"},{"startTime":3465.758,"endTime":3467.158,"body":"market to see if there's traction."},{"startTime":3467.448,"endTime":3470.398,"body":"And if so, then they hire"},{"startTime":3467.448,"endTime":3470.398,"body":"people from that local area."},{"startTime":3470.548,"endTime":3472.928,"body":"I think it might have been Airbnb"},{"startTime":3470.548,"endTime":3472.928,"body":"actually now that I'm talking about it."},{"startTime":3473.078,"endTime":3477.138,"body":"to figure out if they can get traction"},{"startTime":3473.078,"endTime":3477.138,"body":"because they, because every locality"},{"startTime":3477.148,"endTime":3480.488,"body":"has different laws and different"},{"startTime":3477.148,"endTime":3480.488,"body":"regulations and different things"},{"startTime":3480.528,"endTime":3481.478,"body":"that they have to comply with."},{"startTime":3481.638,"endTime":3486.428,"body":"So they had to spin up a, a team"},{"startTime":3481.638,"endTime":3486.428,"body":"in the hyperlocal location and that"},{"startTime":3486.428,"endTime":3487.798,"body":"is a services team at that point."},{"startTime":3487.948,"endTime":3489.888,"body":"It's not a product team,"},{"startTime":3487.948,"endTime":3489.888,"body":"the product is the same."},{"startTime":3489.918,"endTime":3493.208,"body":"I mean, now, now where the product"},{"startTime":3489.918,"endTime":3493.208,"body":"and platform has to change is to"},{"startTime":3493.208,"endTime":3497.878,"body":"say, Oh, this, this place has a"},{"startTime":3493.208,"endTime":3497.878,"body":"different tax than this other place."},{"startTime":3497.878,"endTime":3501.348,"body":"Or this, yeah, maybe the platform"},{"startTime":3497.878,"endTime":3501.348,"body":"has to be enhanced to allow"},{"startTime":3501.638,"endTime":3503.998,"body":"for some local customization."},{"startTime":3504.148,"endTime":3507.238,"body":"But that's, that's, that's a one"},{"startTime":3504.148,"endTime":3507.238,"body":"off enhancement for the platform."},{"startTime":3507.388,"endTime":3510.548,"body":"The actual customization based on"},{"startTime":3507.388,"endTime":3510.548,"body":"locality and the need for additional"},{"startTime":3510.548,"endTime":3511.878,"body":"features based on localities."},{"startTime":3512.028,"endTime":3514.428,"body":"That's something that the"},{"startTime":3512.028,"endTime":3514.428,"body":"services team is leading."},{"startTime":3514.578,"endTime":3515.158,"body":"The product team."},{"startTime":3515.158,"endTime":3520.798,"body":"So as this podcast went on, we got"},{"startTime":3515.158,"endTime":3520.798,"body":"more nuanced in the, how the service"},{"startTime":3520.798,"endTime":3523.228,"body":"delivery and product delivery."},{"startTime":3523.378,"endTime":3524.998,"body":"Kind of work together that's true."},{"startTime":3524.998,"endTime":3525.908,"body":"That's that's interesting."},{"startTime":3525.938,"endTime":3526.108,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3526.168,"endTime":3528.248,"body":"I also think that we're not done."},{"startTime":3528.318,"endTime":3530.118,"body":"Like it was probably just"},{"startTime":3528.318,"endTime":3530.118,"body":"scratching the surface."},{"startTime":3530.118,"endTime":3532.218,"body":"If you keep going, you"},{"startTime":3530.118,"endTime":3532.218,"body":"would find more nuance."},{"startTime":3532.258,"endTime":3535.178,"body":"I think, I think, I think we need to"},{"startTime":3532.258,"endTime":3535.178,"body":"reach out to Brian Fidalgo and get him"},{"startTime":3535.188,"endTime":3537.058,"body":"back on to talk about service delivery."},{"startTime":3537.058,"endTime":3540.018,"body":"Now that we're like in the"},{"startTime":3537.058,"endTime":3540.018,"body":"depths of service delivery,"},{"startTime":3540.168,"endTime":3541.088,"body":"I think it might be time."},{"startTime":3541.098,"endTime":3542.358,"body":"Yeah, I can do that."},{"startTime":3542.418,"endTime":3543.208,"body":"I'll reach out to him."},{"startTime":3543.258,"endTime":3548.388,"body":"The podcast follow on is how a product"},{"startTime":3543.258,"endTime":3548.388,"body":"delivery organization can follow a"},{"startTime":3548.388,"endTime":3551.858,"body":"service delivery, because if you, there's"},{"startTime":3548.388,"endTime":3551.858,"body":"actually a great business model if you"},{"startTime":3551.868,"endTime":3555.748,"body":"think about it, because if what we said"},{"startTime":3551.868,"endTime":3555.748,"body":"early in the podcast holds true, the"},{"startTime":3555.748,"endTime":3561.148,"body":"service delivery people are forging"},{"startTime":3555.748,"endTime":3561.148,"body":"stronger, more longterm relationships,"},{"startTime":3561.348,"endTime":3563.108,"body":"less transactional relationships."},{"startTime":3563.258,"endTime":3566.008,"body":"More long term relationships"},{"startTime":3563.258,"endTime":3566.008,"body":"with the clients."},{"startTime":3566.158,"endTime":3567.848,"body":"I mean, that's the hard part."},{"startTime":3568.068,"endTime":3570.308,"body":"That's a business development, basically."},{"startTime":3570.458,"endTime":3571.048,"body":"That's the hard part."},{"startTime":3571.048,"endTime":3575.228,"body":"And it doesn't involve the hard R and D"},{"startTime":3571.048,"endTime":3575.228,"body":"type of dollars that a product development"},{"startTime":3575.248,"endTime":3578.598,"body":"might, that doesn't mean it's cheap"},{"startTime":3575.248,"endTime":3578.598,"body":"either, because you have to spend the time"},{"startTime":3578.748,"endTime":3581.068,"body":"to forge those relationships over time."},{"startTime":3581.168,"endTime":3581.478,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3581.478,"endTime":3584.208,"body":"I mean, it's, so you"},{"startTime":3581.478,"endTime":3584.208,"body":"could say it's similar."},{"startTime":3584.358,"endTime":3584.698,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":3584.738,"endTime":3585.628,"body":"Depends, I guess."},{"startTime":3585.788,"endTime":3588.148,"body":"You don't have a whole lot of"},{"startTime":3585.788,"endTime":3588.148,"body":"capital investment, but you do"},{"startTime":3588.148,"endTime":3589.868,"body":"have time investment and energy."},{"startTime":3589.958,"endTime":3591.328,"body":"I mean, that might be okay."},{"startTime":3591.328,"endTime":3595.308,"body":"I mean, your service people might be"},{"startTime":3591.328,"endTime":3595.308,"body":"the people to tell you like, Hey, you"},{"startTime":3595.308,"endTime":3600.338,"body":"don't need a lot of money because there's"},{"startTime":3595.308,"endTime":3600.338,"body":"this gap yeah that we see if you're in"},{"startTime":3600.368,"endTime":3604.238,"body":"tune with them, and you're listening"},{"startTime":3600.368,"endTime":3604.238,"body":"right again You can't do that in silos"},{"startTime":3604.418,"endTime":3607.908,"body":"really not do that in that one Yeah,"},{"startTime":3604.418,"endTime":3607.908,"body":"sure you kind of you've got to be working"},{"startTime":3607.908,"endTime":3612.488,"body":"across those swim lanes and verticals"},{"startTime":3607.908,"endTime":3612.488,"body":"intersecting together to say hey at"},{"startTime":3612.498,"endTime":3616.918,"body":"this customer this implementation of"},{"startTime":3612.498,"endTime":3616.918,"body":"the product with the service that you're"},{"startTime":3616.918,"endTime":3618.948,"body":"providing Let's talk about those problems."},{"startTime":3618.998,"endTime":3621.778,"body":"I would expect if you're a product"},{"startTime":3618.998,"endTime":3621.778,"body":"manager, you're going to be going"},{"startTime":3621.778,"endTime":3626.548,"body":"to more meetings and you're going"},{"startTime":3621.778,"endTime":3626.548,"body":"to be getting more in depth."},{"startTime":3626.838,"endTime":3629.848,"body":"Like I, I, everyone hears this as"},{"startTime":3626.838,"endTime":3629.848,"body":"like, Oh, more meetings, I'm out."},{"startTime":3629.998,"endTime":3632.428,"body":"To really know how your"},{"startTime":3629.998,"endTime":3632.428,"body":"product's being utilized."},{"startTime":3632.578,"endTime":3633.658,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3633.658,"endTime":3637.988,"body":"You, if you're in a, in a matrix"},{"startTime":3633.658,"endTime":3637.988,"body":"organization like that, Yeah, get ready."},{"startTime":3637.988,"endTime":3639.498,"body":"Buckle up."},{"startTime":3639.548,"endTime":3642.888,"body":"so if you're in a model that"},{"startTime":3639.548,"endTime":3642.888,"body":"we described as I think I said"},{"startTime":3642.898,"endTime":3646.398,"body":"the pod model, it behooves you"},{"startTime":3642.898,"endTime":3646.398,"body":"to talk to other parts, right?"},{"startTime":3646.398,"endTime":3649.748,"body":"Because they have other customers"},{"startTime":3646.398,"endTime":3649.748,"body":"that they're serving and"},{"startTime":3649.748,"endTime":3650.738,"body":"they get different feedback."},{"startTime":3650.958,"endTime":3652.868,"body":"So you may have more meetings."},{"startTime":3653.208,"endTime":3656.818,"body":"In that sense, where you're meeting"},{"startTime":3653.208,"endTime":3656.818,"body":"with other pods to figure out how"},{"startTime":3656.868,"endTime":3660.328,"body":"how their experience is faring"},{"startTime":3656.868,"endTime":3660.328,"body":"and how collectively you could"},{"startTime":3660.328,"endTime":3662.088,"body":"improve the services and product."},{"startTime":3662.238,"endTime":3662.748,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":3662.868,"endTime":3663.338,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":3663.488,"endTime":3664.378,"body":"Talking to people's heart."},{"startTime":3664.518,"endTime":3665.438,"body":"Oh, I don't like it."},{"startTime":3665.628,"endTime":3666.188,"body":"I don't like it."},{"startTime":3666.318,"endTime":3666.888,"body":"It's too hard."},{"startTime":3666.948,"endTime":3667.308,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3667.458,"endTime":3668.158,"body":"Too much pressure."},{"startTime":3668.308,"endTime":3671.418,"body":"Well, this is a, I mean, this is a,"},{"startTime":3668.308,"endTime":3671.418,"body":"I didn't expect to go this long, but"},{"startTime":3671.418,"endTime":3674.748,"body":"I'm happy that we did because just,"},{"startTime":3671.418,"endTime":3674.748,"body":"just like agile doesn't work here."},{"startTime":3674.898,"endTime":3676.328,"body":"Products and services together."},{"startTime":3676.653,"endTime":3684.453,"body":"In one, in one business, we're unique"},{"startTime":3676.653,"endTime":3684.453,"body":"as unique as GE and FedEx as unique as"},{"startTime":3684.473,"endTime":3690.723,"body":"everybody else, probably pool and BMW"},{"startTime":3684.473,"endTime":3690.723,"body":"and Levi Strauss, every Johnson, Johnson,"},{"startTime":3690.773,"endTime":3694.623,"body":"every other company that we've named"},{"startTime":3690.773,"endTime":3694.623,"body":"while we've lightly broken the working"},{"startTime":3694.623,"endTime":3698.843,"body":"agreement but the, the, the way that you"},{"startTime":3694.623,"endTime":3698.843,"body":"manage the relationship between the two,"},{"startTime":3698.843,"endTime":3702.503,"body":"I think that's the thing that we've come"},{"startTime":3698.843,"endTime":3702.503,"body":"from this podcast with a new appreciation"},{"startTime":3702.503,"endTime":3708.553,"body":"that to say, this is very, like when"},{"startTime":3702.503,"endTime":3708.553,"body":"we talked about the management methods"},{"startTime":3708.603,"endTime":3710.103,"body":"we were not happy with any of them."},{"startTime":3710.103,"endTime":3714.303,"body":"No, I think, I think the"},{"startTime":3710.103,"endTime":3714.303,"body":"customer centric model."},{"startTime":3714.453,"endTime":3715.403,"body":"We were most happy with."},{"startTime":3715.403,"endTime":3716.643,"body":"Yeah, that was the closest one."},{"startTime":3716.703,"endTime":3720.843,"body":"Yeah, but the, the, like the silos, like"},{"startTime":3716.703,"endTime":3720.843,"body":"we, we know there's problems with that."},{"startTime":3720.863,"endTime":3721.283,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3721.283,"endTime":3723.443,"body":"Whether the matrix, we know"},{"startTime":3721.283,"endTime":3723.443,"body":"there's problems with that."},{"startTime":3723.593,"endTime":3724.543,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3724.663,"endTime":3725.193,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":3725.193,"endTime":3725.543,"body":"Isn't it?"},{"startTime":3725.673,"endTime":3727.363,"body":"That was the, that was the"},{"startTime":3725.673,"endTime":3727.363,"body":"most interesting takeaway"},{"startTime":3727.363,"endTime":3728.373,"body":"in this podcast to me."},{"startTime":3728.553,"endTime":3729.453,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":3729.643,"endTime":3729.923,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3730.073,"endTime":3730.503,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":3730.563,"endTime":3731.003,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":3731.013,"endTime":3734.363,"body":"So I think it looks like if you're"},{"startTime":3731.013,"endTime":3734.363,"body":"still with us, well, thank you."},{"startTime":3734.483,"endTime":3738.443,"body":"And let us know in the comments"},{"startTime":3734.483,"endTime":3738.443,"body":"below what you'd like to talk about."},{"startTime":3738.503,"endTime":3740.093,"body":"And don't forget to like, and subscribe."},{"startTime":3740.163,"endTime":3740.623,"body":"That's right."}]}