{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":12.097,"endTime":15.867,"body":"On a differentt podcast, near the end"},{"startTime":12.097,"endTime":15.867,"body":"of the podcast, we said, get help."},{"startTime":15.927,"endTime":19.987,"body":"We said, do all these other things"},{"startTime":15.927,"endTime":19.987,"body":"we suggest, but also ask for help."},{"startTime":20.137,"endTime":22.697,"body":"I don't know, for some reason,"},{"startTime":20.137,"endTime":22.697,"body":"a lot of people find it very"},{"startTime":22.697,"endTime":26.077,"body":"difficult to kind of just say, I"},{"startTime":22.697,"endTime":26.077,"body":"don't know, so I should get help."},{"startTime":26.227,"endTime":29.097,"body":"So this podcast is going to be"},{"startTime":26.227,"endTime":29.097,"body":"helpful for those people that have"},{"startTime":29.107,"endTime":33.757,"body":"struggled with trying to put their"},{"startTime":29.107,"endTime":33.757,"body":"hand up and say, Hey, I need help."},{"startTime":34.057,"endTime":37.867,"body":"Also if you're in a coaching"},{"startTime":34.057,"endTime":37.867,"body":"situation and you're finding it"},{"startTime":38.177,"endTime":42.627,"body":"difficult to interact with people"},{"startTime":38.177,"endTime":42.627,"body":"who are uncoachable or are very"},{"startTime":42.627,"endTime":44.597,"body":"resistant to your coaching techniques."},{"startTime":44.597,"endTime":45.407,"body":"Let's put it that way."},{"startTime":45.437,"endTime":46.247,"body":"That's a nice way."},{"startTime":46.477,"endTime":49.067,"body":"You're swimming upstream with"},{"startTime":46.477,"endTime":49.067,"body":"them, with your coaching."},{"startTime":49.227,"endTime":54.117,"body":"That there might be another podcast in"},{"startTime":49.227,"endTime":54.117,"body":"the offering on coachability, I think."},{"startTime":54.347,"endTime":54.597,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":54.607,"endTime":58.037,"body":"Cause today we're going to focus"},{"startTime":54.607,"endTime":58.037,"body":"mainly on this one topic,  asking"},{"startTime":58.037,"endTime":59.937,"body":"for help or get help as we call it."},{"startTime":60.127,"endTime":60.927,"body":"Getting help."},{"startTime":60.967,"endTime":64.887,"body":"I just finished the Marty Kagan"},{"startTime":60.967,"endTime":64.887,"body":"transformed book, for example, In"},{"startTime":64.887,"endTime":69.477,"body":"the Marty Cagan book even he says the"},{"startTime":64.887,"endTime":69.477,"body":"modern manager in an organization,"},{"startTime":69.627,"endTime":71.237,"body":"coaching is a large part of your job."},{"startTime":71.237,"endTime":73.727,"body":"And if you're not doing coaching"},{"startTime":71.237,"endTime":73.727,"body":"what are you doing with your job?"},{"startTime":73.737,"endTime":74.907,"body":"Like what you're, you're a manager."},{"startTime":74.907,"endTime":79.847,"body":"This is, the purpose of a manager in, in"},{"startTime":74.907,"endTime":79.847,"body":"the modern day the 2024 or whatever year"},{"startTime":79.847,"endTime":81.427,"body":"it is that you are listening to this."},{"startTime":81.577,"endTime":81.957,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":81.957,"endTime":85.757,"body":"I mean, he's right, but also"},{"startTime":81.957,"endTime":85.757,"body":"this is not very prevalent."},{"startTime":85.757,"endTime":90.837,"body":"So unfortunately a lot of people"},{"startTime":85.757,"endTime":90.837,"body":"don't see their role as being a coach."},{"startTime":90.987,"endTime":93.907,"body":"You know, they just basically say,"},{"startTime":90.987,"endTime":93.907,"body":"we're going to hire somebody for a"},{"startTime":93.907,"endTime":96.977,"body":"skill set and some expertise that"},{"startTime":93.907,"endTime":96.977,"body":"we believe they already possess."},{"startTime":97.127,"endTime":98.097,"body":"We're paying them for it."},{"startTime":98.247,"endTime":101.257,"body":"So they shouldn't need to be"},{"startTime":98.247,"endTime":101.257,"body":"nurtured further in order to be"},{"startTime":101.267,"endTime":103.167,"body":"more productive in our organization."},{"startTime":103.167,"endTime":103.347,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":103.547,"endTime":107.647,"body":"And there's nothing further from the"},{"startTime":103.547,"endTime":107.647,"body":"truth because even if that person has"},{"startTime":107.657,"endTime":112.577,"body":"the best skill set that you can possibly"},{"startTime":107.657,"endTime":112.577,"body":"hope for in a person in a role, let's"},{"startTime":112.577,"endTime":113.907,"body":"say they don't know your business."},{"startTime":113.957,"endTime":114.867,"body":"They don't know your domain."},{"startTime":114.917,"endTime":115.897,"body":"They don't know your culture."},{"startTime":115.947,"endTime":117.597,"body":"They don't know your politics, right?"},{"startTime":117.607,"endTime":118.687,"body":"They don't know your customers."},{"startTime":119.017,"endTime":122.847,"body":"So they need help and give them that"},{"startTime":119.017,"endTime":122.847,"body":"help so that Everybody can succeed."},{"startTime":122.887,"endTime":124.217,"body":"If they succeed, you succeed."},{"startTime":124.367,"endTime":127.257,"body":"Unfortunately, a lot of times"},{"startTime":124.367,"endTime":127.257,"body":"people don't see it that way."},{"startTime":127.357,"endTime":128.607,"body":"And a whole host of reasons."},{"startTime":128.607,"endTime":131.667,"body":"I mean, it's like turf protection"},{"startTime":128.607,"endTime":131.667,"body":"playing politics, especially if"},{"startTime":131.667,"endTime":134.677,"body":"they weren't the hiring person and"},{"startTime":131.667,"endTime":134.677,"body":"all of these things come into play."},{"startTime":134.827,"endTime":138.137,"body":"So this episode is going to be helpful"},{"startTime":134.827,"endTime":138.137,"body":"for people that have wondered, should"},{"startTime":138.137,"endTime":140.107,"body":"I put my hand up and say I need help?"},{"startTime":140.267,"endTime":143.227,"body":"Or other people that say, Why"},{"startTime":140.267,"endTime":143.227,"body":"are people asking for help?"},{"startTime":143.267,"endTime":144.377,"body":"So it goes both ways."},{"startTime":144.507,"endTime":146.347,"body":"So we're going to tackle this by personas,"},{"startTime":146.427,"endTime":149.337,"body":"Who, who is it that might be seeking help?"},{"startTime":149.437,"endTime":153.217,"body":"Yeah, so kind of the structure that"},{"startTime":149.437,"endTime":153.217,"body":"we talked about for this podcast is"},{"startTime":153.217,"endTime":157.077,"body":"to talk about the persona, who it is"},{"startTime":153.217,"endTime":157.077,"body":"that you normally interact with who may"},{"startTime":157.077,"endTime":158.717,"body":"need help, may need to ask for help."},{"startTime":158.867,"endTime":162.217,"body":"And we're going to talk about the"},{"startTime":158.867,"endTime":162.217,"body":"reasons that they do not ask for help."},{"startTime":162.257,"endTime":162.707,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":162.867,"endTime":166.267,"body":"And then we're going to talk about some of"},{"startTime":162.867,"endTime":166.267,"body":"the benefits that if they, if they were."},{"startTime":166.417,"endTime":169.037,"body":"Kind of free of the burden of some of"},{"startTime":166.417,"endTime":169.037,"body":"these things that we're holding them back."},{"startTime":169.097,"endTime":171.497,"body":"What, what, what they could"},{"startTime":169.097,"endTime":171.497,"body":"gain, what their gains could be."},{"startTime":171.787,"endTime":172.907,"body":"It's about gains, bro."},{"startTime":172.967,"endTime":173.377,"body":"Guess what?"},{"startTime":173.387,"endTime":175.477,"body":"Gains cashing out and bro-ing down."},{"startTime":175.717,"endTime":179.847,"body":"Let's dig straight into the"},{"startTime":175.717,"endTime":179.847,"body":"first category, the most relevant"},{"startTime":179.847,"endTime":181.077,"body":"category for us, which is."},{"startTime":181.327,"endTime":182.457,"body":"Developers."},{"startTime":182.607,"endTime":186.897,"body":"if you've ever been on a team where"},{"startTime":182.607,"endTime":186.897,"body":"they resist collaboration, it's"},{"startTime":186.927,"endTime":191.757,"body":"like six, seven, eight people, 10"},{"startTime":186.927,"endTime":191.757,"body":"people, and it's 10 teams of one."},{"startTime":191.997,"endTime":194.207,"body":"They all come and say, I got my work item."},{"startTime":194.397,"endTime":195.447,"body":"I'm working on it today."},{"startTime":195.687,"endTime":196.427,"body":"I didn't finish."},{"startTime":196.457,"endTime":197.597,"body":"I'll be working on it tomorrow."},{"startTime":197.757,"endTime":199.127,"body":"No blockers."},{"startTime":199.377,"endTime":201.697,"body":"And then you're left"},{"startTime":199.377,"endTime":201.697,"body":"there saying like, What?"},{"startTime":201.797,"endTime":204.727,"body":"I don't understand your first"},{"startTime":201.797,"endTime":204.727,"body":"reaction is I'm in utopia."},{"startTime":204.727,"endTime":205.607,"body":"There's no blockers."},{"startTime":205.627,"endTime":207.277,"body":"We're gonna be great at"},{"startTime":205.627,"endTime":207.277,"body":"the end of the sprint."},{"startTime":207.317,"endTime":212.237,"body":"I think a lot of that at the developers"},{"startTime":207.317,"endTime":212.237,"body":"level comes down to like the amount"},{"startTime":212.237,"endTime":216.062,"body":"of psychological safety that exists"},{"startTime":212.237,"endTime":216.062,"body":"or doesn't exist in the team, right?"},{"startTime":216.062,"endTime":221.187,"body":"They don't necessarily feel Safe because"},{"startTime":216.062,"endTime":221.187,"body":"they're looking at other developers, their"},{"startTime":221.187,"endTime":226.757,"body":"peers, and they should be really linking"},{"startTime":221.187,"endTime":226.757,"body":"arms, so to speak, metaphorically to lift"},{"startTime":226.757,"endTime":228.097,"body":"the sprint goal over the finish line."},{"startTime":228.097,"endTime":231.987,"body":"But oftentimes what happens is"},{"startTime":228.097,"endTime":231.987,"body":"they're hesitant because they're"},{"startTime":231.987,"endTime":235.437,"body":"afraid Of how they're going to be"},{"startTime":231.987,"endTime":235.437,"body":"perceived by their peers, right?"},{"startTime":235.617,"endTime":238.627,"body":"If I ask for help, it means people"},{"startTime":235.617,"endTime":238.627,"body":"are going to know that I don't"},{"startTime":238.717,"endTime":240.437,"body":"know what I'm supposed to be doing."},{"startTime":240.437,"endTime":243.227,"body":"And I can't have that"},{"startTime":240.437,"endTime":243.227,"body":"image of myself out there."},{"startTime":243.307,"endTime":247.227,"body":"I feel that one, like that human"},{"startTime":243.307,"endTime":247.227,"body":"element of, oh, I'll be perceived"},{"startTime":247.227,"endTime":250.637,"body":"as weak or I'll be perceived as not"},{"startTime":247.227,"endTime":250.637,"body":"confident or whatever, like inadequate."},{"startTime":250.787,"endTime":254.187,"body":"So that's going to be a through"},{"startTime":250.787,"endTime":254.187,"body":"line for every single persona"},{"startTime":254.187,"endTime":255.087,"body":"that we talk about here."},{"startTime":255.087,"endTime":255.207,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":255.372,"endTime":257.512,"body":"So that's a good one to get"},{"startTime":255.372,"endTime":257.512,"body":"out of the way right away."},{"startTime":257.762,"endTime":261.972,"body":"the concept that asking for help in"},{"startTime":257.762,"endTime":261.972,"body":"any way, shape or form, especially"},{"startTime":262.012,"endTime":266.382,"body":"in a collaborative modern development"},{"startTime":262.012,"endTime":266.382,"body":"environment is perceived as weakness."},{"startTime":266.412,"endTime":270.932,"body":"Your tech lead, your managers, they"},{"startTime":266.412,"endTime":270.932,"body":"should be the first people to identify,"},{"startTime":271.082,"endTime":275.482,"body":"Hey, you have some odd hangups because"},{"startTime":271.082,"endTime":275.482,"body":"of bad places that you worked or the way"},{"startTime":275.482,"endTime":278.782,"body":"that you were raised or whatever, Here,"},{"startTime":275.482,"endTime":278.782,"body":"we're safe to say we don't know how to"},{"startTime":278.782,"endTime":281.152,"body":"do something, and then to ask for help."},{"startTime":281.162,"endTime":284.392,"body":"I don't even think I would be"},{"startTime":281.162,"endTime":284.392,"body":"able to be a product manager"},{"startTime":284.542,"endTime":286.272,"body":"and say, I don't know something."},{"startTime":286.422,"endTime":291.882,"body":"I expect like definitely early in my"},{"startTime":286.422,"endTime":291.882,"body":"career where I was in QA and also doing a"},{"startTime":292.002,"endTime":295.102,"body":"kind of dual role as a business analyst."},{"startTime":295.452,"endTime":297.942,"body":"I mean, the bread and butter"},{"startTime":295.452,"endTime":297.942,"body":"of the business analyst is,"},{"startTime":298.182,"endTime":299.122,"body":"I don't understand this."},{"startTime":299.252,"endTime":300.472,"body":"Can you please explain it to me?"},{"startTime":300.622,"endTime":303.432,"body":"Can you please tell me"},{"startTime":300.622,"endTime":303.432,"body":"more about whatever, XYZ?"},{"startTime":303.582,"endTime":304.212,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":304.392,"endTime":307.792,"body":"And also, coming back to the persona"},{"startTime":304.392,"endTime":307.792,"body":"that we're discussing now, developers,"},{"startTime":307.912,"endTime":310.692,"body":"it should also be their , bread"},{"startTime":307.912,"endTime":310.692,"body":"and butter, or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":310.892,"endTime":315.792,"body":"I mean, whenever they're in a meeting"},{"startTime":310.892,"endTime":315.792,"body":"with, let's say, their PO, or at"},{"startTime":315.792,"endTime":317.272,"body":"the refinement, Or a customer, yeah."},{"startTime":317.282,"endTime":318.172,"body":"Stakeholders or customers."},{"startTime":318.322,"endTime":321.602,"body":"They should feel safe to say,"},{"startTime":318.322,"endTime":321.602,"body":"can you tell me more about this?"},{"startTime":321.622,"endTime":323.162,"body":"I don't quite understand."},{"startTime":323.342,"endTime":325.062,"body":"There's nothing wrong with"},{"startTime":323.342,"endTime":325.062,"body":"saying you don't understand."},{"startTime":325.062,"endTime":328.632,"body":"You're not expected to be suddenly like"},{"startTime":325.062,"endTime":328.632,"body":"the genius that understands everything."},{"startTime":328.652,"endTime":331.352,"body":"You know what the funny thing about"},{"startTime":328.652,"endTime":331.352,"body":"that is, a lot of developers, They'll"},{"startTime":331.352,"endTime":332.622,"body":"say, oh, you have this problem?"},{"startTime":332.662,"endTime":334.882,"body":"Oh, I have a solution for that"},{"startTime":332.662,"endTime":334.882,"body":"I have a solution for that."},{"startTime":334.932,"endTime":335.342,"body":"But wait a minute."},{"startTime":335.492,"endTime":336.732,"body":"You haven't heard the whole problem yet."},{"startTime":336.922,"endTime":339.982,"body":"They go straight to solutioning,"},{"startTime":336.922,"endTime":339.982,"body":"which is a huge issue, right?"},{"startTime":340.182,"endTime":342.542,"body":"They don't know what they're trying"},{"startTime":340.182,"endTime":342.542,"body":"to solve for, but they have a"},{"startTime":342.542,"endTime":344.202,"body":"solution for whatever the problem is."},{"startTime":344.232,"endTime":345.142,"body":"We've already solved that."},{"startTime":345.192,"endTime":347.642,"body":"They were already thinking"},{"startTime":345.192,"endTime":347.642,"body":"ahead to the solution."},{"startTime":347.792,"endTime":348.972,"body":"And that, that's an issue."},{"startTime":349.012,"endTime":349.942,"body":"That's a real issue."},{"startTime":349.982,"endTime":351.292,"body":"I think that's also."},{"startTime":351.442,"endTime":355.012,"body":"compounded with some of the"},{"startTime":351.442,"endTime":355.012,"body":"personalities I've seen, and I'm not"},{"startTime":355.012,"endTime":358.042,"body":"saying every developer is like this by"},{"startTime":355.012,"endTime":358.042,"body":"any stretch, but a lot of developers"},{"startTime":358.382,"endTime":362.312,"body":"tend to have pretty big egos because"},{"startTime":358.382,"endTime":362.312,"body":"they've worked in this technology"},{"startTime":362.312,"endTime":364.662,"body":"and that technology or the ex Google."},{"startTime":364.712,"endTime":369.162,"body":"So these people feel like it's"},{"startTime":364.712,"endTime":369.162,"body":"beneath them to ask for help."},{"startTime":369.312,"endTime":373.762,"body":"It's like, it's going to be belittling for"},{"startTime":369.312,"endTime":373.762,"body":"them, and that is completely not right."},{"startTime":373.792,"endTime":376.832,"body":"Well, that's, Pride and the"},{"startTime":373.792,"endTime":376.832,"body":"ego, either or, or both."},{"startTime":377.132,"endTime":378.162,"body":"That is pride and ego."},{"startTime":378.262,"endTime":379.532,"body":"One fuels the other sometimes."},{"startTime":379.542,"endTime":381.042,"body":"so I understand pride and ego."},{"startTime":381.392,"endTime":386.242,"body":"I would hope that your culture is"},{"startTime":381.392,"endTime":386.242,"body":"vetting that out in the hiring process."},{"startTime":386.492,"endTime":390.072,"body":"And if it's not vetted out in the"},{"startTime":386.492,"endTime":390.072,"body":"hiring process, I would hope that your"},{"startTime":390.122,"endTime":392.762,"body":"leadership, management, whatever you have"},{"startTime":390.122,"endTime":392.762,"body":"in your company, I would hope that they"},{"startTime":392.762,"endTime":397.622,"body":"are constantly screening and watching"},{"startTime":392.762,"endTime":397.622,"body":"out for that and having one on one kind"},{"startTime":397.622,"endTime":401.182,"body":"of counseling sessions to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":397.622,"endTime":401.182,"body":"I've noticed that you don't seem to ask"},{"startTime":401.182,"endTime":404.752,"body":"for help, or I've noticed that you seem"},{"startTime":401.182,"endTime":404.752,"body":"to take big things on your shoulders,"},{"startTime":404.752,"endTime":408.012,"body":"and are working nights and weekends or"},{"startTime":404.752,"endTime":408.012,"body":"whatever, well listen, I appreciate the"},{"startTime":408.012,"endTime":412.102,"body":"extra effort, but wouldn't it be easier"},{"startTime":408.012,"endTime":412.102,"body":"if, you know what I mean that's the"},{"startTime":412.102,"endTime":413.872,"body":"opportunity for some coaching right there."},{"startTime":413.922,"endTime":417.132,"body":"Some of this is what we said well,"},{"startTime":413.922,"endTime":417.132,"body":"you're afraid to get help and asking"},{"startTime":417.132,"endTime":419.502,"body":"for help is an invitation for coaching."},{"startTime":419.652,"endTime":422.922,"body":"But if you are not open to coaching"},{"startTime":419.652,"endTime":422.922,"body":"in the first place, you have these"},{"startTime":422.922,"endTime":428.087,"body":"ingrained habits , it's a pretty visible"},{"startTime":422.922,"endTime":428.087,"body":"trigger, I wanna say, to invite a coach."},{"startTime":428.237,"endTime":431.807,"body":"To say, Hey why don't you think"},{"startTime":428.237,"endTime":431.807,"body":"about this to invite some coaching."},{"startTime":431.957,"endTime":436.587,"body":"but I also understand that somebody"},{"startTime":431.957,"endTime":436.587,"body":"with a certain level of pride or"},{"startTime":436.647,"endTime":440.227,"body":"taken to the extreme arrogance is"},{"startTime":436.647,"endTime":440.227,"body":"not going to be open to coaching."},{"startTime":440.377,"endTime":443.267,"body":"They're not even going to be open"},{"startTime":440.377,"endTime":443.267,"body":"to you're saying, Hey, why don't you"},{"startTime":443.327,"endTime":444.707,"body":"hey, we got some junior team members."},{"startTime":444.707,"endTime":445.117,"body":"You seem."},{"startTime":445.267,"endTime":446.947,"body":"Very knowledgeable about"},{"startTime":445.267,"endTime":446.947,"body":"this type of solution."},{"startTime":446.947,"endTime":451.017,"body":"Why don't you include them in your"},{"startTime":446.947,"endTime":451.017,"body":"architectural brainstorming and whatnot."},{"startTime":451.167,"endTime":454.577,"body":"Yeah, and, for that specific topic,"},{"startTime":451.167,"endTime":454.577,"body":"like being open to coaching or"},{"startTime":454.577,"endTime":456.897,"body":"not, I think we're going to do"},{"startTime":454.577,"endTime":456.897,"body":"that separate podcast for that."},{"startTime":457.127,"endTime":460.077,"body":"but a lot of times to your point"},{"startTime":457.127,"endTime":460.077,"body":"about the culture of the organization,"},{"startTime":460.117,"endTime":464.577,"body":"I've also seen Environments where"},{"startTime":460.117,"endTime":464.577,"body":"it's frowned upon to ask for help."},{"startTime":464.727,"endTime":466.707,"body":"I'm talking about management here."},{"startTime":466.947,"endTime":467.307,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":467.457,"endTime":468.567,"body":"Sometimes even leadership."},{"startTime":468.567,"endTime":472.137,"body":"Unfortunately, they look at that behavior"},{"startTime":468.567,"endTime":472.137,"body":"and say, How come you don't know?"},{"startTime":472.287,"endTime":473.087,"body":"We hired you."},{"startTime":473.377,"endTime":474.977,"body":"Aren't you an expert in all of this stuff?"},{"startTime":474.977,"endTime":475.567,"body":"You should know."},{"startTime":475.807,"endTime":479.287,"body":"I was in a development environment"},{"startTime":475.807,"endTime":479.287,"body":"one time that, that, I remember the"},{"startTime":479.287,"endTime":484.537,"body":"phrase, it was so and so Brian always"},{"startTime":479.287,"endTime":484.537,"body":"needs help to complete his tickets."},{"startTime":484.687,"endTime":488.197,"body":"And that's, that's really a slight"},{"startTime":484.687,"endTime":488.197,"body":"on Brian because he's asking for"},{"startTime":488.197,"endTime":491.887,"body":"help that, that's a shame because"},{"startTime":488.197,"endTime":491.887,"body":"that should be the opposite."},{"startTime":491.887,"endTime":494.237,"body":"It should be turned upside down"},{"startTime":491.887,"endTime":494.237,"body":"and say, oh, Brian needs help."},{"startTime":494.267,"endTime":494.727,"body":"Who can help him?"},{"startTime":494.877,"endTime":495.197,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":495.477,"endTime":498.477,"body":"Go ahead and pair with the guy"},{"startTime":495.477,"endTime":498.477,"body":"and go figure this out instead"},{"startTime":498.477,"endTime":500.317,"body":"of, why does he always need help?"},{"startTime":500.407,"endTime":502.797,"body":"Maybe we should replace him"},{"startTime":500.407,"endTime":502.797,"body":"because he's not working out."},{"startTime":502.797,"endTime":506.737,"body":"the implication is all of my other"},{"startTime":502.797,"endTime":506.737,"body":"developers are able to take a work item"},{"startTime":506.737,"endTime":510.297,"body":"and finish it by themselves without"},{"startTime":506.737,"endTime":510.297,"body":"peering with anyone, without any help."},{"startTime":510.447,"endTime":511.667,"body":"Yeah, that's the implication."},{"startTime":511.827,"endTime":512.247,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":512.267,"endTime":515.917,"body":"And that runs counterculture to this"},{"startTime":512.267,"endTime":515.917,"body":"whole fostering of the steam spirit"},{"startTime":515.967,"endTime":520.437,"body":"it's really leading towards people"},{"startTime":515.967,"endTime":520.437,"body":"trying to become heroes by themselves"},{"startTime":520.587,"endTime":524.367,"body":"and that's a shame that should be a red"},{"startTime":520.587,"endTime":524.367,"body":"light, by the way, if you're a coach,"},{"startTime":524.517,"endTime":528.297,"body":"if you see that you should say to"},{"startTime":524.517,"endTime":528.297,"body":"yourself, Hey, what are we doing here?"},{"startTime":528.297,"endTime":528.927,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":528.927,"endTime":529.167,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":529.237,"endTime":529.547,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":529.567,"endTime":531.097,"body":"This podcast is all about red lights."},{"startTime":531.247,"endTime":531.917,"body":"As you can see,"},{"startTime":532.067,"endTime":536.187,"body":"We probably beat this up enough, but"},{"startTime":532.067,"endTime":536.187,"body":"we didn't talk about the advantages"},{"startTime":536.187,"endTime":540.457,"body":"of a development culture, where"},{"startTime":536.187,"endTime":540.457,"body":"asking for help is a normal thing."},{"startTime":540.467,"endTime":544.042,"body":"Is completely okay, not only just"},{"startTime":540.467,"endTime":544.042,"body":"okay, it should be a normal thing."},{"startTime":544.192,"endTime":548.072,"body":"Hey, I haven't seen you ask"},{"startTime":544.192,"endTime":548.072,"body":"for help in a couple of days."},{"startTime":548.222,"endTime":550.452,"body":"What's going on in, in"},{"startTime":548.222,"endTime":550.452,"body":"that kind of culture."},{"startTime":550.452,"endTime":551.562,"body":"Cause I've, I've been in both."},{"startTime":551.562,"endTime":554.752,"body":"I've been in the culture where everyone's"},{"startTime":551.562,"endTime":554.752,"body":"expected to take a ticket, go back to"},{"startTime":554.752,"endTime":556.822,"body":"their corner and be completely left alone."},{"startTime":557.072,"endTime":560.142,"body":"And if you need help, it's"},{"startTime":557.072,"endTime":560.142,"body":"a, it's a slight on you a pox"},{"startTime":560.142,"endTime":561.132,"body":"on your house or whatever."},{"startTime":561.282,"endTime":565.062,"body":"Apparently we're a middle English"},{"startTime":561.282,"endTime":565.062,"body":"peasants now, but I've been in the other."},{"startTime":565.212,"endTime":570.222,"body":"And it, it was, it's a stark contrast"},{"startTime":565.212,"endTime":570.222,"body":"because what you end up with, where,"},{"startTime":570.372,"endTime":575.612,"body":"where the culture that's looking out"},{"startTime":570.372,"endTime":575.612,"body":"to say, Hey I, we're going to leave"},{"startTime":575.612,"endTime":577.782,"body":"you alone to work on what you want"},{"startTime":575.612,"endTime":577.782,"body":"to work on for a period of time."},{"startTime":577.782,"endTime":580.732,"body":"But if you go, a day without"},{"startTime":577.782,"endTime":580.732,"body":"kind of bringing your head"},{"startTime":580.732,"endTime":581.922,"body":"above water for a breath."},{"startTime":582.072,"endTime":584.462,"body":"You know, we're going to check in"},{"startTime":582.072,"endTime":584.462,"body":"because we think something's wrong."},{"startTime":584.472,"endTime":586.462,"body":"We think maybe you're stuck on something."},{"startTime":586.722,"endTime":588.182,"body":"I had a development manager."},{"startTime":588.332,"endTime":591.622,"body":"Actually, he was a, he was actually"},{"startTime":588.332,"endTime":591.622,"body":"a excellent developer, terrible"},{"startTime":591.622,"endTime":593.232,"body":"manager, but excellent developer."},{"startTime":593.512,"endTime":596.262,"body":"And he would say, when you get in"},{"startTime":593.512,"endTime":596.262,"body":"the code, you get to a logic problem."},{"startTime":596.482,"endTime":599.082,"body":"He's like, if you're stuck on something"},{"startTime":596.482,"endTime":599.082,"body":"for 15 minutes, you can't figure it out."},{"startTime":599.112,"endTime":601.862,"body":"He's like, stop what you're doing,"},{"startTime":599.112,"endTime":601.862,"body":"go to the next cube, and get"},{"startTime":601.872,"endTime":603.482,"body":"whatever developer is available."},{"startTime":603.592,"endTime":605.722,"body":"You know, somebody who doesn't"},{"startTime":603.592,"endTime":605.722,"body":"have their headphones on, obviously"},{"startTime":605.722,"endTime":606.952,"body":"is broadcasting Leave Me Alone."},{"startTime":607.162,"endTime":610.422,"body":"He's like, get another developer and"},{"startTime":607.162,"endTime":610.422,"body":"say, Hey, I have been stuck on something"},{"startTime":610.432,"endTime":612.262,"body":"for 15 minutes, I can't figure it out."},{"startTime":612.412,"endTime":613.472,"body":"And have them sit with you."},{"startTime":613.622,"endTime":615.932,"body":"He's like, don't wait"},{"startTime":613.622,"endTime":615.932,"body":"an hour, hours too long."},{"startTime":616.132,"endTime":620.102,"body":"Now the amount of time is"},{"startTime":616.132,"endTime":620.102,"body":"debatable, but for him, he's 20"},{"startTime":620.112,"endTime":621.462,"body":"years at that point in his career."},{"startTime":621.612,"endTime":622.962,"body":"So he was coaching me."},{"startTime":623.272,"endTime":625.722,"body":"I think the point of what he was"},{"startTime":623.272,"endTime":625.722,"body":"trying to coach me at that time was."},{"startTime":625.872,"endTime":628.962,"body":"Don't wait very long at all, unless"},{"startTime":625.872,"endTime":628.962,"body":"it's completely clear in your head."},{"startTime":629.072,"endTime":630.232,"body":"Don't wait very long at all."},{"startTime":630.572,"endTime":631.382,"body":"Get help right away."},{"startTime":631.532,"endTime":635.282,"body":"And this is an experienced senior"},{"startTime":631.532,"endTime":635.282,"body":"developer telling me this yeah."},{"startTime":635.282,"endTime":639.432,"body":"And I think if, yeah, so that's fantastic"},{"startTime":635.282,"endTime":639.432,"body":"to hear because but if you have tech"},{"startTime":639.472,"endTime":640.792,"body":"leads, you can reach out to them."},{"startTime":640.992,"endTime":642.922,"body":"Don't feel ashamed to do that."},{"startTime":642.922,"endTime":646.012,"body":"So teams that actually foster"},{"startTime":642.922,"endTime":646.012,"body":"that behavior, you'll find"},{"startTime":646.012,"endTime":647.127,"body":"team members doing things."},{"startTime":647.277,"endTime":652.267,"body":"Like spinning up documentation libraries"},{"startTime":647.277,"endTime":652.267,"body":"or chat channels where people can ask"},{"startTime":652.267,"endTime":656.487,"body":"these questions and anyone who's happens"},{"startTime":652.267,"endTime":656.487,"body":"to be looking can answer things so people"},{"startTime":656.487,"endTime":657.857,"body":"can say, Hey, I'm stuck on this logic."},{"startTime":657.857,"endTime":658.637,"body":"How do I do this?"},{"startTime":658.667,"endTime":659.037,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":659.187,"endTime":662.967,"body":"And someone else can answer or"},{"startTime":659.187,"endTime":662.967,"body":"they can say Oh, I've done this"},{"startTime":662.967,"endTime":664.476,"body":"before, here's a snippet of code."},{"startTime":664.626,"endTime":668.006,"body":"It's not quite going to do what you want,"},{"startTime":664.626,"endTime":668.006,"body":"but you can use it as reference, right?"},{"startTime":668.096,"endTime":671.456,"body":"When you see things like that"},{"startTime":668.096,"endTime":671.456,"body":"happening your team is maturing, right?"},{"startTime":671.626,"endTime":675.076,"body":"Which is the only way I code now is I"},{"startTime":671.626,"endTime":675.076,"body":"go back to previous things I've done."},{"startTime":675.226,"endTime":678.796,"body":"The first thing you should do"},{"startTime":675.226,"endTime":678.796,"body":"obviously is go to Stack overflow."},{"startTime":678.796,"endTime":681.836,"body":"Oftentimes I go to previous snippets"},{"startTime":678.796,"endTime":681.836,"body":"of code I write or I've written in"},{"startTime":681.836,"endTime":683.386,"body":"the past and go, who wrote this stuff?"},{"startTime":683.416,"endTime":686.976,"body":"Exactly, well, it's six months away"},{"startTime":683.416,"endTime":686.976,"body":"from writing a piece of code and it"},{"startTime":686.976,"endTime":689.676,"body":"might as well be written by somebody"},{"startTime":686.976,"endTime":689.676,"body":"else because I can't remember the"},{"startTime":689.676,"endTime":692.356,"body":"story I told and the advantages"},{"startTime":689.676,"endTime":692.356,"body":"here, we kind of talked about is."},{"startTime":692.516,"endTime":696.136,"body":"when you're asking for help in"},{"startTime":692.516,"endTime":696.136,"body":"development and you're peering not"},{"startTime":696.136,"endTime":700.446,"body":"only are you getting different levels"},{"startTime":696.136,"endTime":700.446,"body":"of expertise, to help you work through"},{"startTime":700.446,"endTime":705.136,"body":"the problem, but the code that you"},{"startTime":700.446,"endTime":705.136,"body":"produce afterwards most likely ends up"},{"startTime":705.146,"endTime":709.946,"body":"being better, first of all, it's just"},{"startTime":705.146,"endTime":709.946,"body":"objectively better, higher quality code."},{"startTime":710.236,"endTime":713.736,"body":"And it ends up being more maintainable"},{"startTime":710.236,"endTime":713.736,"body":"because the other person will"},{"startTime":713.736,"endTime":715.296,"body":"check you to say, Oh, you got it."},{"startTime":715.306,"endTime":717.166,"body":"Like you got to handle, try catches."},{"startTime":717.166,"endTime":718.146,"body":"You got to handle errors."},{"startTime":718.336,"endTime":719.166,"body":"Just do it now."},{"startTime":719.166,"endTime":720.726,"body":"don't wait and refactor it later."},{"startTime":720.846,"endTime":721.626,"body":"Do it now."},{"startTime":721.756,"endTime":724.846,"body":"I think the net net of it is, and I don't"},{"startTime":721.756,"endTime":724.846,"body":"think there's been any studies that are"},{"startTime":724.846,"endTime":728.436,"body":"my knowledge anyway, but the net net of"},{"startTime":724.846,"endTime":728.436,"body":"it is you're actually going to accrue"},{"startTime":728.436,"endTime":731.996,"body":"less technical debt as a result of that"},{"startTime":728.436,"endTime":731.996,"body":"which is one of the big selling points"},{"startTime":732.016,"endTime":734.316,"body":"of Anyway, yeah, I think that's real."},{"startTime":734.466,"endTime":739.076,"body":"So, yeah,  if you're in a culture"},{"startTime":734.466,"endTime":739.076,"body":"that is, is it tracks your hours"},{"startTime":739.076,"endTime":741.876,"body":"down to the minute or whatever with"},{"startTime":739.076,"endTime":741.876,"body":"programming and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":742.136,"endTime":746.286,"body":"And it's difficult, like the, the,"},{"startTime":742.136,"endTime":746.286,"body":"the culture itself or the financial"},{"startTime":746.376,"endTime":749.416,"body":"controls that are in place over you are"},{"startTime":746.376,"endTime":749.416,"body":"kind of pushing back against culture."},{"startTime":749.566,"endTime":752.436,"body":"I don't know that this is not the"},{"startTime":749.566,"endTime":752.436,"body":"podcast of having a lot of good"},{"startTime":752.436,"endTime":756.376,"body":"suggestions for you, but just, just know"},{"startTime":752.436,"endTime":756.376,"body":"that those things are counteracting."},{"startTime":756.526,"endTime":758.986,"body":"Actual good development practices."},{"startTime":759.306,"endTime":759.646,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":759.646,"endTime":760.196,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":760.206,"endTime":762.696,"body":"And yeah, if you're in that"},{"startTime":760.206,"endTime":762.696,"body":"culture, keep that resume up."},{"startTime":762.696,"endTime":763.696,"body":"Oh, it's time."},{"startTime":763.846,"endTime":766.976,"body":"Oh, that, that advice went out in"},{"startTime":763.846,"endTime":766.976,"body":"the first 20 minutes of the podcast."},{"startTime":766.976,"endTime":767.826,"body":"Oh my goodness."},{"startTime":767.846,"endTime":768.966,"body":"This is going to be a good podcast."},{"startTime":769.116,"endTime":769.846,"body":"For sure."},{"startTime":769.856,"endTime":773.766,"body":"We're talking about these roles in"},{"startTime":769.856,"endTime":773.766,"body":"kind of like, almost like in isolation."},{"startTime":773.766,"endTime":774.276,"body":"Almost right."},{"startTime":774.276,"endTime":778.116,"body":"It was the developers, but if"},{"startTime":774.276,"endTime":778.116,"body":"a developer has, excuse me, if"},{"startTime":778.116,"endTime":781.936,"body":"a developer has a question and"},{"startTime":778.116,"endTime":781.936,"body":"they're not sure they could ask a."},{"startTime":782.086,"endTime":782.926,"body":"Test or why not?"},{"startTime":782.926,"endTime":785.136,"body":"They're technical to and"},{"startTime":782.926,"endTime":785.136,"body":"say, take a look at this."},{"startTime":785.286,"endTime":788.266,"body":"And even if the tester can't help, let's"},{"startTime":785.286,"endTime":788.266,"body":"assume the worst case scenario test can"},{"startTime":788.296,"endTime":790.366,"body":"help you in this specific instance, right?"},{"startTime":790.516,"endTime":793.476,"body":"Because your question is deep and"},{"startTime":790.516,"endTime":793.476,"body":"it's all around like trying to do"},{"startTime":793.556,"endTime":794.666,"body":"a raise of a raise or whatever."},{"startTime":794.816,"endTime":799.736,"body":"The tester can say, while you're"},{"startTime":794.816,"endTime":799.736,"body":"doing that, how about doing X, Y, Z."},{"startTime":799.746,"endTime":801.196,"body":"So it makes it easy to test."},{"startTime":801.346,"endTime":804.296,"body":"Now already to your point about"},{"startTime":801.346,"endTime":804.296,"body":"maintainability, the code is now"},{"startTime":804.296,"endTime":805.786,"body":"getting better already, right?"},{"startTime":805.786,"endTime":807.186,"body":"So their input's not wasted."},{"startTime":807.336,"endTime":810.196,"body":"Like, I realize that we talk about"},{"startTime":807.336,"endTime":810.196,"body":"developers just because that's the"},{"startTime":810.196,"endTime":811.646,"body":"role in the scrum team is developers."},{"startTime":811.926,"endTime":814.046,"body":"But this equally, could apply to testing."},{"startTime":814.136,"endTime":814.596,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":814.796,"endTime":816.356,"body":"the testers asking for help."},{"startTime":816.506,"endTime":819.896,"body":"Also, I think about testers the same"},{"startTime":816.506,"endTime":819.896,"body":"way I think about Business analyst"},{"startTime":819.896,"endTime":823.986,"body":"though is like your job kind of"},{"startTime":819.896,"endTime":823.986,"body":"is asking for help all the time."},{"startTime":824.136,"endTime":828.476,"body":"You know, if you're a tester and you've"},{"startTime":824.136,"endTime":828.476,"body":"tested something, you'll test something."},{"startTime":828.626,"endTime":831.676,"body":"If you're manually testing something like"},{"startTime":828.626,"endTime":831.676,"body":"something that you're about to automate."},{"startTime":831.696,"endTime":833.646,"body":"So you have to test it manually"},{"startTime":831.696,"endTime":833.646,"body":"first to make sure it works."},{"startTime":833.796,"endTime":834.706,"body":"You'll test it."},{"startTime":834.896,"endTime":839.636,"body":"You'll test it and you'll see that it"},{"startTime":834.896,"endTime":839.636,"body":"fails and you'll say, Oh, well, maybe"},{"startTime":839.636,"endTime":842.806,"body":"it was something in the data or maybe"},{"startTime":839.636,"endTime":842.806,"body":"it was some edge case or maybe something"},{"startTime":842.946,"endTime":844.276,"body":"that maybe I didn't do something right."},{"startTime":844.276,"endTime":846.876,"body":"Maybe the test data was bad or"},{"startTime":844.276,"endTime":846.876,"body":"whatever, and you'll do it again."},{"startTime":847.026,"endTime":847.986,"body":"You'll do it a couple times."},{"startTime":847.986,"endTime":849.666,"body":"Probably usually is what I see."},{"startTime":849.816,"endTime":853.666,"body":"And then at some point you have to"},{"startTime":849.816,"endTime":853.666,"body":"just go get the developer that coded"},{"startTime":853.666,"endTime":855.626,"body":"it to say I'm trying everything I can."},{"startTime":855.626,"endTime":857.306,"body":"It's just I don't understand"},{"startTime":855.626,"endTime":857.306,"body":"why it's not working."},{"startTime":857.456,"endTime":857.776,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":857.776,"endTime":861.886,"body":"Because sometimes it may not be apparent"},{"startTime":857.776,"endTime":861.886,"body":"to you that it's not why it's not working."},{"startTime":862.196,"endTime":866.046,"body":"I mean, it's nice if you have access"},{"startTime":862.196,"endTime":866.046,"body":"to all the logs you need and the"},{"startTime":866.176,"endTime":869.326,"body":"access to the environment but sometimes"},{"startTime":866.176,"endTime":869.326,"body":"testers don't have that control."},{"startTime":869.346,"endTime":872.036,"body":"Sometimes they're testing in"},{"startTime":869.346,"endTime":872.036,"body":"environments they don't control."},{"startTime":872.296,"endTime":874.716,"body":"They can't see everything that's"},{"startTime":872.296,"endTime":874.716,"body":"available to them and they'll have"},{"startTime":874.716,"endTime":877.417,"body":"to Test it a couple times like the"},{"startTime":874.716,"endTime":877.417,"body":"user would see it and then stop."},{"startTime":877.617,"endTime":878.927,"body":"Mobile testing is this way too."},{"startTime":879.097,"endTime":882.017,"body":"You have very limited"},{"startTime":879.097,"endTime":882.017,"body":"visibility into what's actually"},{"startTime":882.017,"endTime":883.017,"body":"happening in mobile testing."},{"startTime":883.017,"endTime":885.467,"body":"You have to go get the developer"},{"startTime":883.017,"endTime":885.467,"body":"and they'll have to maybe run a"},{"startTime":885.477,"endTime":889.597,"body":"debug version of the mobile app"},{"startTime":885.477,"endTime":889.597,"body":"that they just sent to you to figure"},{"startTime":889.597,"endTime":891.597,"body":"out what exactly is going wrong."},{"startTime":891.807,"endTime":896.437,"body":"But, that's, if you're not asking for"},{"startTime":891.807,"endTime":896.437,"body":"help, the risk of escape defects is"},{"startTime":896.437,"endTime":899.487,"body":"going to skyrocket if you're not asking"},{"startTime":896.437,"endTime":899.487,"body":"for help along the testing process,"},{"startTime":899.527,"endTime":904.237,"body":"or you let things slip because you're"},{"startTime":899.527,"endTime":904.237,"body":"afraid to ask for help or I've been in"},{"startTime":904.237,"endTime":907.847,"body":"the corporate environment where every"},{"startTime":904.237,"endTime":907.847,"body":"time you stop to ask the developer"},{"startTime":907.847,"endTime":912.427,"body":"for a question or whatever, you're"},{"startTime":907.847,"endTime":912.427,"body":"perceived as slowing down development."},{"startTime":912.427,"endTime":914.847,"body":"Cause likely in that type of"},{"startTime":912.427,"endTime":914.847,"body":"environment, when they've handed"},{"startTime":914.857,"endTime":919.537,"body":"you A fix or a release or something,"},{"startTime":914.857,"endTime":919.537,"body":"they've moved on to the next thing."},{"startTime":919.757,"endTime":923.087,"body":"So when you're asking them, Hey, I"},{"startTime":919.757,"endTime":923.087,"body":"don't understand this, or hey, this"},{"startTime":923.087,"endTime":924.157,"body":"test doesn't seem to be working."},{"startTime":924.157,"endTime":925.007,"body":"Can you work with me?"},{"startTime":925.157,"endTime":929.387,"body":"It's perceived as, Oh, Brian,"},{"startTime":925.157,"endTime":929.387,"body":"your tests are slowing down"},{"startTime":929.537,"endTime":931.067,"body":"the active development work."},{"startTime":931.217,"endTime":932.237,"body":"I've been in that culture."},{"startTime":932.247,"endTime":935.587,"body":"It's, I understand when I say it"},{"startTime":932.247,"endTime":935.587,"body":"out loud, it sounds ridiculous."},{"startTime":935.597,"endTime":936.147,"body":"No, it doesn't."},{"startTime":936.297,"endTime":939.177,"body":"But I have been in that"},{"startTime":936.297,"endTime":939.177,"body":"culture quite, quite often."},{"startTime":939.177,"endTime":942.757,"body":"In fact, these people are measured"},{"startTime":939.177,"endTime":942.757,"body":"differently in that culture, right?"},{"startTime":942.807,"endTime":944.807,"body":"So the developers are"},{"startTime":942.807,"endTime":944.807,"body":"heads down, like you said."},{"startTime":944.957,"endTime":946.377,"body":"They moved on to the next stuff."},{"startTime":946.607,"endTime":948.717,"body":"And it's almost looked upon as a bother."},{"startTime":948.727,"endTime":952.977,"body":"When the tester says, hey the stuff that"},{"startTime":948.727,"endTime":952.977,"body":"you passed over to me, quite working."},{"startTime":953.427,"endTime":956.907,"body":"I think in those kinds of environments,"},{"startTime":953.427,"endTime":956.907,"body":"you can make some slight tweaks."},{"startTime":957.057,"endTime":960.227,"body":"Make sure the tester has access to"},{"startTime":957.057,"endTime":960.227,"body":"the code so they can step through it."},{"startTime":960.377,"endTime":961.807,"body":"And figure out where it's wrong."},{"startTime":961.807,"endTime":964.357,"body":"And go back to the developer"},{"startTime":961.807,"endTime":964.357,"body":"with meaningful input like,"},{"startTime":964.357,"endTime":965.617,"body":"here is where it's breaking."},{"startTime":965.617,"endTime":965.677,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":965.677,"endTime":966.487,"body":"Go fix it, right?"},{"startTime":966.487,"endTime":967.987,"body":"in the mobile world, for example."},{"startTime":968.037,"endTime":970.167,"body":"We had to talk through the requirement."},{"startTime":970.167,"endTime":972.147,"body":"We had to talk through what we're"},{"startTime":970.167,"endTime":972.147,"body":"trying to do with the customer."},{"startTime":972.297,"endTime":974.847,"body":"We had to explore the use"},{"startTime":972.297,"endTime":974.847,"body":"case with the customer."},{"startTime":975.117,"endTime":978.447,"body":"Then we had to take it internal"},{"startTime":975.117,"endTime":978.447,"body":"talk about what needed to be changed"},{"startTime":978.517,"endTime":980.647,"body":"behind the scenes to make it happen."},{"startTime":980.797,"endTime":984.566,"body":"Like We had to design how we're"},{"startTime":980.797,"endTime":984.566,"body":"going to work through the work."},{"startTime":984.716,"endTime":989.361,"body":"So, at that phase, where you spec'd"},{"startTime":984.716,"endTime":989.361,"body":"out all the stories, And wrote all your"},{"startTime":989.361,"endTime":991.501,"body":"subtasks and broke out all the work."},{"startTime":991.651,"endTime":997.201,"body":"You could have asked the tester for help"},{"startTime":991.651,"endTime":997.201,"body":"at that phase, because the tester, as"},{"startTime":997.201,"endTime":1000.561,"body":"you write out, Oh, we got to change this"},{"startTime":997.201,"endTime":1000.561,"body":"table and we got to do this request and we"},{"startTime":1000.561,"endTime":1005.171,"body":"got to get this back and we got to verify"},{"startTime":1000.561,"endTime":1005.171,"body":"that the data is as expected or whatever."},{"startTime":1005.321,"endTime":1008.491,"body":"The tester could be telling you"},{"startTime":1005.321,"endTime":1008.491,"body":"along the way, well, okay, you're"},{"startTime":1008.491,"endTime":1010.001,"body":"getting this back from the database."},{"startTime":1010.001,"endTime":1012.881,"body":"Well, we got to check what"},{"startTime":1010.001,"endTime":1012.881,"body":"happens if the time's out."},{"startTime":1012.891,"endTime":1014.601,"body":"We got to check what happens"},{"startTime":1012.891,"endTime":1014.601,"body":"if you get garbage back."},{"startTime":1014.641,"endTime":1018.331,"body":"We got to check what happens if you the"},{"startTime":1014.641,"endTime":1018.331,"body":"happy path, if everything goes well."},{"startTime":1018.501,"endTime":1022.531,"body":"So the testers can be helping you"},{"startTime":1018.501,"endTime":1022.531,"body":"spec out how you're going to code"},{"startTime":1022.531,"endTime":1023.861,"body":"something if you're a developer."},{"startTime":1024.011,"endTime":1027.581,"body":"And if the testers are not normally"},{"startTime":1024.011,"endTime":1027.581,"body":"involved in that process, the testers"},{"startTime":1027.581,"endTime":1031.421,"body":"could lobby to, Become involved in"},{"startTime":1027.581,"endTime":1031.421,"body":"that process under the banner of"},{"startTime":1031.591,"endTime":1035.281,"body":"helping, Hey, I want to write my tests"},{"startTime":1031.591,"endTime":1035.281,"body":"at the same time as you write the"},{"startTime":1035.281,"endTime":1036.891,"body":"way that you're going to develop it."},{"startTime":1037.041,"endTime":1039.641,"body":"And that like again, there is,"},{"startTime":1037.041,"endTime":1039.641,"body":"there's methodologies, testers"},{"startTime":1039.721,"endTime":1040.611,"body":"and development stuff like that."},{"startTime":1040.931,"endTime":1043.071,"body":"They even gets closer to doing that."},{"startTime":1043.221,"endTime":1046.881,"body":"But yeah, that's a, that's a persona that"},{"startTime":1043.221,"endTime":1046.881,"body":"we, we did not originally have on here."},{"startTime":1046.881,"endTime":1050.181,"body":"Testers QA that I think That's"},{"startTime":1046.881,"endTime":1050.181,"body":"another one that could get"},{"startTime":1050.201,"endTime":1051.881,"body":"tripped up very easily, you know?"},{"startTime":1052.071,"endTime":1053.041,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1053.101,"endTime":1055.961,"body":"And you know, one of the things"},{"startTime":1053.101,"endTime":1055.961,"body":"that I've seen also as a behavior"},{"startTime":1055.961,"endTime":1059.381,"body":"pattern is testers aren't engaged"},{"startTime":1055.961,"endTime":1059.381,"body":"at the time of backlog refinement"},{"startTime":1059.391,"endTime":1061.551,"body":"because we're just talking about work."},{"startTime":1061.701,"endTime":1062.931,"body":"There's nothing for them to test yet."},{"startTime":1063.081,"endTime":1066.231,"body":"No, get them in there so they"},{"startTime":1063.081,"endTime":1066.231,"body":"can ask meaningful questions."},{"startTime":1066.551,"endTime":1070.651,"body":"They can figure out how to test"},{"startTime":1066.551,"endTime":1070.651,"body":"it later, but definitely ask you"},{"startTime":1070.651,"endTime":1074.861,"body":"those questions around Edge cases,"},{"startTime":1070.651,"endTime":1074.861,"body":"type of data, interfaces, boundary"},{"startTime":1074.861,"endTime":1076.351,"body":"conditions there's no limit."},{"startTime":1076.641,"endTime":1079.551,"body":"So having them in there"},{"startTime":1076.641,"endTime":1079.551,"body":"is invaluable, right?"},{"startTime":1079.701,"endTime":1082.841,"body":"And this is all the more"},{"startTime":1079.701,"endTime":1082.841,"body":"important if you're using that"},{"startTime":1083.031,"endTime":1084.561,"body":"old the three amigos model."},{"startTime":1084.711,"endTime":1088.141,"body":"The test person should be present"},{"startTime":1084.711,"endTime":1088.141,"body":"as one of the amigos playing one"},{"startTime":1088.171,"endTime":1090.191,"body":"of the instruments as the mariachi."},{"startTime":1090.341,"endTime":1091.121,"body":"They should be in there."},{"startTime":1091.122,"endTime":1092.531,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1092.531,"endTime":1095.641,"body":"They, if they're not in there, then you're"},{"startTime":1092.531,"endTime":1095.641,"body":"missing out an important piece here."},{"startTime":1095.841,"endTime":1097.011,"body":"You're gonna ask for help Brian."},{"startTime":1097.021,"endTime":1099.971,"body":"As long as we go with like the"},{"startTime":1097.021,"endTime":1099.971,"body":"Holy Trinity, the Holy Marty Kagan"},{"startTime":1099.981,"endTime":1104.221,"body":"Trinity of , the developer product"},{"startTime":1099.981,"endTime":1104.221,"body":"manager and designer, let's talk"},{"startTime":1104.221,"endTime":1105.721,"body":"about the designer for a second."},{"startTime":1105.881,"endTime":1107.595,"body":"the product is UI UX."},{"startTime":1107.595,"endTime":1109.38,"body":"Let's talk about UI UX."},{"startTime":1109.38,"endTime":1114.864,"body":"So UI UX where I were like only in my"},{"startTime":1109.38,"endTime":1114.864,"body":"experience, everyone's experience could"},{"startTime":1114.874,"endTime":1116.294,"body":"be different, but my experience is."},{"startTime":1116.589,"endTime":1120.319,"body":"When UI UX doesn't want to ask"},{"startTime":1116.589,"endTime":1120.319,"body":"for things or put more meetings"},{"startTime":1120.319,"endTime":1121.519,"body":"on the product managers calendar."},{"startTime":1121.679,"endTime":1123.629,"body":"Cause again, my calendar,"},{"startTime":1121.679,"endTime":1123.629,"body":"I tell people all the time."},{"startTime":1123.629,"endTime":1127.579,"body":"I'm like, listen, find time on my"},{"startTime":1123.629,"endTime":1127.579,"body":"calendar, book over whatever's there."},{"startTime":1127.729,"endTime":1128.909,"body":"Don't get intimidated."},{"startTime":1129.059,"endTime":1130.789,"body":"If it's important, throw it on there."},{"startTime":1130.819,"endTime":1131.989,"body":"I can be available early."},{"startTime":1132.029,"endTime":1133.029,"body":"I can be available late."},{"startTime":1133.179,"endTime":1133.799,"body":"Throw it on there."},{"startTime":1133.809,"endTime":1137.419,"body":"People feel like they're burdening"},{"startTime":1133.809,"endTime":1137.419,"body":"me and the UI UX people, again,"},{"startTime":1137.419,"endTime":1140.249,"body":"because they're user experience,"},{"startTime":1137.419,"endTime":1140.249,"body":"they're usually the people on the"},{"startTime":1140.249,"endTime":1142.539,"body":"team that have the most empathy."},{"startTime":1142.689,"endTime":1146.499,"body":"So they don't want to feel"},{"startTime":1142.689,"endTime":1146.499,"body":"like they're burdening you by"},{"startTime":1146.519,"endTime":1148.529,"body":"taking time to ask for help."},{"startTime":1148.589,"endTime":1152.189,"body":"They're actually doing you a disservice"},{"startTime":1148.589,"endTime":1152.189,"body":"by not doing that, I feel right."},{"startTime":1152.189,"endTime":1154.379,"body":"Because they're going to take"},{"startTime":1152.189,"endTime":1154.379,"body":"shortcuts at the end of the day."},{"startTime":1154.409,"endTime":1157.899,"body":"Well, that's, I go out of my"},{"startTime":1154.409,"endTime":1157.899,"body":"way to communicate that, but"},{"startTime":1157.919,"endTime":1160.139,"body":"cause I'm, I'm a, I'm a direct."},{"startTime":1160.289,"endTime":1164.039,"body":"I will tell people, Hey, like"},{"startTime":1160.289,"endTime":1164.039,"body":"I'll tell my UI UX people, Hey,"},{"startTime":1164.039,"endTime":1165.789,"body":"I don't like this, or I like it."},{"startTime":1165.939,"endTime":1167.309,"body":"And these are the reasons why."},{"startTime":1167.459,"endTime":1171.079,"body":"And then I tell them to challenge"},{"startTime":1167.459,"endTime":1171.079,"body":"me or I tell them I leave it"},{"startTime":1171.079,"endTime":1173.069,"body":"in and get customer validation."},{"startTime":1173.219,"endTime":1174.659,"body":"But this is why I don't like it."},{"startTime":1174.659,"endTime":1177.779,"body":"I'm very direct to tell them, to work"},{"startTime":1174.659,"endTime":1177.779,"body":"back and forth cause earlier in my"},{"startTime":1177.779,"endTime":1179.889,"body":"product career, I was used to being the."},{"startTime":1180.219,"endTime":1182.739,"body":"Product manager slash UI UX person."},{"startTime":1182.739,"endTime":1186.029,"body":"Especially when I was on contract, that"},{"startTime":1182.739,"endTime":1186.029,"body":"companies, companies that are, have"},{"startTime":1186.029,"endTime":1189.109,"body":"a contract product person, especially"},{"startTime":1186.029,"endTime":1189.109,"body":"if you're the first product person,"},{"startTime":1189.179,"endTime":1190.559,"body":"like they don't have UI UX people,"},{"startTime":1190.819,"endTime":1193.749,"body":"I talked to a company"},{"startTime":1190.819,"endTime":1193.749,"body":"that I was at on contract."},{"startTime":1193.949,"endTime":1198.169,"body":"I helped them hire their permanent"},{"startTime":1193.949,"endTime":1198.169,"body":"placement product manager, I helped"},{"startTime":1198.169,"endTime":1199.509,"body":"their product manager get up to speed."},{"startTime":1199.509,"endTime":1202.979,"body":"And then I separated from the"},{"startTime":1199.509,"endTime":1202.979,"body":"contract that usually was my, Way of"},{"startTime":1203.029,"endTime":1204.899,"body":"a successful ending of a contract."},{"startTime":1205.099,"endTime":1209.759,"body":"I remember the advice I told them when I"},{"startTime":1205.099,"endTime":1209.759,"body":"flew out to the client site and I sat down"},{"startTime":1209.759,"endTime":1212.999,"body":"with them at dinner with the executives"},{"startTime":1209.759,"endTime":1212.999,"body":"and the new product manager I told them"},{"startTime":1213.019,"endTime":1214.919,"body":"like, here's the things in the next year."},{"startTime":1215.079,"endTime":1216.169,"body":"you got a permanent product manager."},{"startTime":1216.169,"endTime":1218.549,"body":"Now it's their roadmap, not mine anymore."},{"startTime":1218.719,"endTime":1221.969,"body":"you're going to want to launch"},{"startTime":1218.719,"endTime":1221.969,"body":"a new directions and the product"},{"startTime":1221.969,"endTime":1224.189,"body":"manager is going to outline the"},{"startTime":1221.969,"endTime":1224.189,"body":"vision and the new directions."},{"startTime":1224.509,"endTime":1229.349,"body":"But I was like you're going to want to"},{"startTime":1224.509,"endTime":1229.349,"body":"quickly iterate with different customers,"},{"startTime":1229.439,"endTime":1231.699,"body":"because that company had a bunch of"},{"startTime":1229.439,"endTime":1231.699,"body":"different customers that were trying to"},{"startTime":1231.699,"endTime":1234.959,"body":"sell at any one time I was like, you're"},{"startTime":1231.699,"endTime":1234.959,"body":"going to want to quickly iterate on ideas."},{"startTime":1235.109,"endTime":1237.039,"body":"Much faster than your development team."},{"startTime":1237.359,"endTime":1241.379,"body":"And what I told them was your development"},{"startTime":1237.359,"endTime":1241.379,"body":"team they're going to feel stressed"},{"startTime":1241.679,"endTime":1245.419,"body":"because they're going to say, we can't"},{"startTime":1241.679,"endTime":1245.419,"body":"iterate as quick as you, the business"},{"startTime":1245.679,"endTime":1247.299,"body":"want to iterate to test new ideas."},{"startTime":1247.509,"endTime":1250.389,"body":"And you're going to find out that"},{"startTime":1247.509,"endTime":1250.389,"body":"what you're looking for is high"},{"startTime":1250.399,"endTime":1252.729,"body":"fidelity clickable wireframes."},{"startTime":1252.879,"endTime":1255.509,"body":"And you're going to end"},{"startTime":1252.879,"endTime":1255.509,"body":"up hiring a UI UX person."},{"startTime":1255.659,"endTime":1257.669,"body":"And Get some quick feedback."},{"startTime":1257.739,"endTime":1258.939,"body":"So here's a new idea."},{"startTime":1258.939,"endTime":1262.359,"body":"We want what do you guys think"},{"startTime":1258.939,"endTime":1262.359,"body":"about it feedback feedback feedback?"},{"startTime":1262.509,"endTime":1266.009,"body":"Ideas go into the funnel They all go to"},{"startTime":1262.509,"endTime":1266.009,"body":"the development team through the filter,"},{"startTime":1266.009,"endTime":1267.579,"body":"the product manager, what I told him was."},{"startTime":1267.729,"endTime":1269.389,"body":"you'll do that three to six months."},{"startTime":1269.419,"endTime":1274.099,"body":"You'll do that three to six months until"},{"startTime":1269.419,"endTime":1274.099,"body":"you reach a new level of understanding,"},{"startTime":1274.419,"endTime":1278.749,"body":"which is, Hey, we don't have to implement"},{"startTime":1274.419,"endTime":1278.749,"body":"every single idea we have anymore."},{"startTime":1278.909,"endTime":1280.919,"body":"We can just test the ideas."},{"startTime":1281.069,"endTime":1286.839,"body":"UX person and then only implement the"},{"startTime":1281.069,"endTime":1286.839,"body":"best ideas that get the best traction."},{"startTime":1286.989,"endTime":1291.399,"body":"And I told him at that point, when you"},{"startTime":1286.989,"endTime":1291.399,"body":"make that realization culturally, you will"},{"startTime":1291.399,"endTime":1296.739,"body":"want your UI UX designer to sit outside"},{"startTime":1291.399,"endTime":1296.739,"body":"your office, there's a very small company."},{"startTime":1296.739,"endTime":1297.559,"body":"So they could do something like that."},{"startTime":1297.559,"endTime":1298.479,"body":"It was like 20 people, right?"},{"startTime":1298.629,"endTime":1302.609,"body":"I was like you'll want to hire that person"},{"startTime":1298.629,"endTime":1302.609,"body":"to sit right outside your office because"},{"startTime":1302.609,"endTime":1306.089,"body":"you'll Get off a customer call and you'll"},{"startTime":1302.609,"endTime":1306.089,"body":"run right over their office energized with"},{"startTime":1306.089,"endTime":1310.169,"body":"like I got this new idea Let's you know"},{"startTime":1306.089,"endTime":1310.169,"body":"add it to the mock ups and let's blast it"},{"startTime":1310.169,"endTime":1313.839,"body":"out to our audience and have them click it"},{"startTime":1310.169,"endTime":1313.839,"body":"and See what the metrics look like and I"},{"startTime":1313.839,"endTime":1317.479,"body":"was like, you'll do that every week You'll"},{"startTime":1313.839,"endTime":1317.479,"body":"have a new idea and that should be okay"},{"startTime":1317.629,"endTime":1321.499,"body":"For your designer that like they shouldn't"},{"startTime":1317.629,"endTime":1321.499,"body":"be put off by that is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1321.719,"endTime":1324.239,"body":"Now, if you did that to a development"},{"startTime":1321.719,"endTime":1324.239,"body":"team, I got this new idea."},{"startTime":1324.239,"endTime":1326.509,"body":"Go implement it top to bottom and"},{"startTime":1324.239,"endTime":1326.509,"body":"have it out in the application."},{"startTime":1326.509,"endTime":1329.919,"body":"By the end of the week, you're really"},{"startTime":1326.509,"endTime":1329.919,"body":"stressing out that development team."},{"startTime":1330.069,"endTime":1332.379,"body":"It's very little work to"},{"startTime":1330.069,"endTime":1332.379,"body":"throw it in prototypes,"},{"startTime":1332.379,"endTime":1335.039,"body":"the funny thing with that, that"},{"startTime":1332.379,"endTime":1335.039,"body":"customer is I saw them like it"},{"startTime":1335.039,"endTime":1336.989,"body":"must've been like 18 months after."},{"startTime":1337.294,"endTime":1339.694,"body":"I had left their contract and they came"},{"startTime":1337.294,"endTime":1339.694,"body":"to me, they were, they happened to be in"},{"startTime":1339.694,"endTime":1343.554,"body":"town and I met with them for drinks after,"},{"startTime":1339.694,"endTime":1343.554,"body":"after whatever event they were here for."},{"startTime":1343.674,"endTime":1344.334,"body":"As one does."},{"startTime":1344.364,"endTime":1347.174,"body":"And they're like, they're like,"},{"startTime":1344.364,"endTime":1347.174,"body":"Oh, Brian we want to let you"},{"startTime":1347.174,"endTime":1348.774,"body":"know, we hired a UI UX designer."},{"startTime":1348.774,"endTime":1349.734,"body":"I was like, Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1349.774,"endTime":1350.744,"body":"I was like, where's their desk?"},{"startTime":1350.754,"endTime":1352.894,"body":"Cause I know I've been to"},{"startTime":1350.754,"endTime":1352.894,"body":"their office many times and I"},{"startTime":1352.894,"endTime":1353.814,"body":"was like, where's their desk?"},{"startTime":1353.974,"endTime":1358.394,"body":"And the CEO is like,"},{"startTime":1353.974,"endTime":1358.394,"body":"right outside my office."},{"startTime":1358.394,"endTime":1359.964,"body":"I was like, why are they"},{"startTime":1358.394,"endTime":1359.964,"body":"right outside your office?"},{"startTime":1359.994,"endTime":1363.404,"body":"Cause you're energized a lot of times"},{"startTime":1359.994,"endTime":1363.404,"body":"and you want to test ideas in the market"},{"startTime":1363.584,"endTime":1364.994,"body":"right away that's what you want to do."},{"startTime":1364.994,"endTime":1366.044,"body":"I was like, yes, exactly."},{"startTime":1366.224,"endTime":1370.384,"body":"That being energized and having that"},{"startTime":1366.224,"endTime":1370.384,"body":"person who can zip those ideas right to"},{"startTime":1370.384,"endTime":1371.884,"body":"the market and bounce it off the market."},{"startTime":1372.094,"endTime":1375.454,"body":"I think the same thing as I think"},{"startTime":1372.094,"endTime":1375.454,"body":"of the product marketer as well."},{"startTime":1375.674,"endTime":1379.364,"body":"I want to bounce those ideas off the"},{"startTime":1375.674,"endTime":1379.364,"body":"market as soon as possible so that we can"},{"startTime":1379.364,"endTime":1381.484,"body":"know if we have traction, if we've really."},{"startTime":1381.634,"endTime":1384.754,"body":"caught on to something that's going"},{"startTime":1381.634,"endTime":1384.754,"body":"to catch fire in the market how"},{"startTime":1384.804,"endTime":1387.914,"body":"early do we know that something,"},{"startTime":1384.804,"endTime":1387.914,"body":"Oh, this is a really great idea."},{"startTime":1388.064,"endTime":1388.254,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1388.254,"endTime":1390.634,"body":"And to your point, it doesn't"},{"startTime":1388.254,"endTime":1390.634,"body":"have to be high five, right?"},{"startTime":1390.634,"endTime":1392.404,"body":"It doesn't, it can be low fidelity."},{"startTime":1392.424,"endTime":1392.624,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1392.774,"endTime":1393.314,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1393.494,"endTime":1393.724,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1393.874,"endTime":1397.814,"body":"You know, but maybe when you do that,"},{"startTime":1393.874,"endTime":1397.814,"body":"a parallel activity might be assuming"},{"startTime":1397.814,"endTime":1400.934,"body":"you get the nods up and down instead"},{"startTime":1397.814,"endTime":1400.934,"body":"of sideways from your customer."},{"startTime":1401.244,"endTime":1405.084,"body":"It's to turn to your teams and"},{"startTime":1401.244,"endTime":1405.084,"body":"say, here's a low fi mock up"},{"startTime":1405.084,"endTime":1405.934,"body":"of what we're trying to do."},{"startTime":1406.174,"endTime":1408.404,"body":"It's barely just above the level of."},{"startTime":1408.554,"endTime":1410.084,"body":"Chicken scratching on a napkin."},{"startTime":1410.234,"endTime":1411.724,"body":"That's okay for the customers."},{"startTime":1411.754,"endTime":1415.394,"body":"Maybe you want something that's clickable"},{"startTime":1411.754,"endTime":1415.394,"body":"because their experience is better"},{"startTime":1415.394,"endTime":1419.434,"body":"and they're more likely to engage"},{"startTime":1415.394,"endTime":1419.434,"body":"depending, depending on the customers,"},{"startTime":1419.434,"endTime":1422.404,"body":"technical and they will engage with"},{"startTime":1419.434,"endTime":1422.404,"body":"you even on the back of a napkin."},{"startTime":1422.404,"endTime":1422.684,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1423.024,"endTime":1424.114,"body":"So yeah, it just depends."},{"startTime":1424.184,"endTime":1424.704,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1424.854,"endTime":1426.124,"body":"this should be the pro."},{"startTime":1426.274,"endTime":1429.904,"body":"Of asking for help as a UI UX"},{"startTime":1426.274,"endTime":1429.904,"body":"designer is, is you're looking"},{"startTime":1429.904,"endTime":1431.084,"body":"for different perspectives."},{"startTime":1431.254,"endTime":1434.604,"body":"You know, if you can fire off a new"},{"startTime":1431.254,"endTime":1434.604,"body":"idea, that's just hot off the press"},{"startTime":1434.754,"endTime":1438.774,"body":"out to a broad audience and you're"},{"startTime":1434.754,"endTime":1438.774,"body":"unconcerned about burdening them"},{"startTime":1438.924,"endTime":1442.474,"body":"with additional things you can ideate"},{"startTime":1438.924,"endTime":1442.474,"body":"much faster than your competition."},{"startTime":1442.524,"endTime":1442.654,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1442.804,"endTime":1445.464,"body":"The more I think through this"},{"startTime":1442.804,"endTime":1445.464,"body":"of all the roles we we've talked"},{"startTime":1445.474,"endTime":1446.774,"body":"about or we're going to talk about."},{"startTime":1446.924,"endTime":1447.744,"body":"This is one role."},{"startTime":1447.764,"endTime":1450.164,"body":"This should be the bread"},{"startTime":1447.764,"endTime":1450.164,"body":"and butter really, right?"},{"startTime":1450.414,"endTime":1451.694,"body":"You're asking for feedback."},{"startTime":1451.694,"endTime":1454.134,"body":"You can think of it that way,"},{"startTime":1451.694,"endTime":1454.134,"body":"but you're asking for help."},{"startTime":1454.134,"endTime":1459.214,"body":"So help me understand the landscape of"},{"startTime":1454.134,"endTime":1459.214,"body":"this specific thing in your business,"},{"startTime":1459.314,"endTime":1460.524,"body":"in your business model, right?"},{"startTime":1460.674,"endTime":1461.954,"body":"That's kind of asking for help."},{"startTime":1461.974,"endTime":1463.384,"body":"You could say it's under the guys."},{"startTime":1463.534,"endTime":1463.964,"body":"feedback."},{"startTime":1463.974,"endTime":1464.524,"body":"That's okay."},{"startTime":1464.724,"endTime":1467.634,"body":"But the other ones initiating"},{"startTime":1464.724,"endTime":1467.634,"body":"the approach, right?"},{"startTime":1467.684,"endTime":1470.254,"body":"By having something and"},{"startTime":1467.684,"endTime":1470.254,"body":"say, is this work well?"},{"startTime":1470.404,"endTime":1470.864,"body":"Oh, no."},{"startTime":1470.894,"endTime":1472.224,"body":"Okay, well, what can we change?"},{"startTime":1472.424,"endTime":1478.264,"body":"If you're a designer and you're not"},{"startTime":1472.424,"endTime":1478.264,"body":"afraid to ask for help you pretend just"},{"startTime":1478.264,"endTime":1482.774,"body":"like a BA, you very quickly will get"},{"startTime":1478.264,"endTime":1482.774,"body":"exposed to a bunch of different skillsets"},{"startTime":1482.924,"endTime":1487.014,"body":"that otherwise, like maybe you wouldn't"},{"startTime":1482.924,"endTime":1487.014,"body":"interact with, I think about UI UX"},{"startTime":1487.014,"endTime":1493.074,"body":"designers that I've worked with they've"},{"startTime":1487.014,"endTime":1493.074,"body":"always had a library of components."},{"startTime":1493.074,"endTime":1493.134,"body":"It's."},{"startTime":1493.284,"endTime":1496.464,"body":"That they end up using as a product"},{"startTime":1493.284,"endTime":1496.464,"body":"manager, I end up just coupling with"},{"startTime":1496.464,"endTime":1499.994,"body":"them to reuse their components and they"},{"startTime":1496.464,"endTime":1499.994,"body":"reuse mine because in the world of mobile"},{"startTime":1499.994,"endTime":1503.754,"body":"applications, your life Advances in"},{"startTime":1499.994,"endTime":1503.754,"body":"dog years as opposed to normal years."},{"startTime":1503.904,"endTime":1506.504,"body":"So you get used to all the"},{"startTime":1503.904,"endTime":1506.504,"body":"elements and everything that"},{"startTime":1506.504,"endTime":1508.684,"body":"you would use in mobile apps."},{"startTime":1508.734,"endTime":1511.774,"body":"That a lot of web applications"},{"startTime":1508.734,"endTime":1511.774,"body":"are very slow to adopt."},{"startTime":1511.924,"endTime":1515.584,"body":"The clickable slider buttons and"},{"startTime":1511.924,"endTime":1515.584,"body":"everything from iOS and everything."},{"startTime":1515.604,"endTime":1517.364,"body":"now it's normal to have"},{"startTime":1515.604,"endTime":1517.364,"body":"all those in websites."},{"startTime":1517.514,"endTime":1521.154,"body":"10 years ago, it was"},{"startTime":1517.514,"endTime":1521.154,"body":"barely anybody had them."},{"startTime":1521.304,"endTime":1521.504,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1521.504,"endTime":1524.074,"body":"You're definitely helping them"},{"startTime":1521.504,"endTime":1524.074,"body":"build up their design pattern"},{"startTime":1524.074,"endTime":1526.104,"body":"library and sharing from that."},{"startTime":1526.104,"endTime":1527.444,"body":"So that just makes sense to me."},{"startTime":1527.594,"endTime":1529.564,"body":"I feel UI UX designers."},{"startTime":1529.904,"endTime":1533.734,"body":"Like they, the pride and"},{"startTime":1529.904,"endTime":1533.734,"body":"self reliance negative."},{"startTime":1533.884,"endTime":1536.524,"body":"I think they're a little"},{"startTime":1533.884,"endTime":1536.524,"body":"less prone to that category."},{"startTime":1536.674,"endTime":1539.394,"body":"by the nature of their work,"},{"startTime":1536.674,"endTime":1539.394,"body":"They have to speak to customers."},{"startTime":1539.394,"endTime":1541.924,"body":"They have to understand the"},{"startTime":1539.394,"endTime":1541.924,"body":"customer journey, their experience."},{"startTime":1542.074,"endTime":1543.464,"body":"So it makes sense to me."},{"startTime":1543.604,"endTime":1546.034,"body":"I think BAs are kind of"},{"startTime":1543.604,"endTime":1546.034,"body":"not too far behind that."},{"startTime":1546.034,"endTime":1549.494,"body":"If you're a real BA trying to"},{"startTime":1546.034,"endTime":1549.494,"body":"understand what's going on Instead of"},{"startTime":1549.494,"endTime":1551.174,"body":"just basically being an note taker."},{"startTime":1551.434,"endTime":1554.574,"body":"I want to cut us to what I think is"},{"startTime":1551.434,"endTime":1554.574,"body":"the most interesting category here."},{"startTime":1554.754,"endTime":1559.714,"body":"Which is executives or management, it"},{"startTime":1554.754,"endTime":1559.714,"body":"could be middle managers, whatever layer."},{"startTime":1559.864,"endTime":1564.594,"body":"So, the holdups at this layer"},{"startTime":1559.864,"endTime":1564.594,"body":"of the organization for asking"},{"startTime":1564.594,"endTime":1566.604,"body":"for help are like Stark."},{"startTime":1566.754,"endTime":1568.614,"body":"And problematic, I will say."},{"startTime":1568.694,"endTime":1570.064,"body":"They absolutely are."},{"startTime":1570.094,"endTime":1573.434,"body":"And they're pretty clear,"},{"startTime":1570.094,"endTime":1573.434,"body":"actually, as well, I think."},{"startTime":1573.714,"endTime":1575.144,"body":"Yes, they can be pretty clear."},{"startTime":1575.184,"endTime":1576.664,"body":"we can start with ego."},{"startTime":1576.664,"endTime":1579.574,"body":"I think that leads the"},{"startTime":1576.664,"endTime":1579.574,"body":"whole list of these things."},{"startTime":1579.574,"endTime":1582.024,"body":"That's the same things that we said"},{"startTime":1579.574,"endTime":1582.024,"body":"were going to be a through line"},{"startTime":1582.084,"endTime":1583.524,"body":"when we started with developers."},{"startTime":1583.744,"endTime":1587.384,"body":"Now, They're amplified"},{"startTime":1583.744,"endTime":1587.384,"body":"to a factor, basically."},{"startTime":1587.594,"endTime":1592.934,"body":"Is that ego pride, that feeling"},{"startTime":1587.594,"endTime":1592.934,"body":"that I'm, I have to be self"},{"startTime":1592.934,"endTime":1596.994,"body":"reliant, I have to come up with a"},{"startTime":1592.934,"endTime":1596.994,"body":"solution myself, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1597.234,"endTime":1600.329,"body":"Now it's taken up to a power of 10."},{"startTime":1600.369,"endTime":1603.709,"body":"Here, because we're at the highest"},{"startTime":1600.369,"endTime":1603.709,"body":"levels of the organization, potentially."},{"startTime":1603.859,"endTime":1604.089,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1604.089,"endTime":1608.329,"body":"And I think it's sometimes worse at the"},{"startTime":1604.089,"endTime":1608.329,"body":"middle manager layer because they're"},{"startTime":1608.329,"endTime":1611.139,"body":"striving to advance in the organization."},{"startTime":1611.289,"endTime":1615.239,"body":"So this kind of flies in the face of"},{"startTime":1611.289,"endTime":1615.239,"body":"that, because if you're asking for"},{"startTime":1615.239,"endTime":1619.049,"body":"help, it's kind of culture to you"},{"startTime":1615.239,"endTime":1619.049,"body":"saying, I know what I'm doing here."},{"startTime":1619.059,"endTime":1623.239,"body":"Promote me basically and that's why"},{"startTime":1619.059,"endTime":1623.239,"body":"a lot of times I find management."},{"startTime":1623.589,"endTime":1628.069,"body":"They, if you have N number of managers,"},{"startTime":1623.589,"endTime":1628.069,"body":"let's say four managers that are"},{"startTime":1628.409,"endTime":1629.899,"body":"trying to solve the same problem."},{"startTime":1629.899,"endTime":1631.089,"body":"You ask him individually."},{"startTime":1631.139,"endTime":1634.729,"body":"You're gonna get at least four, maybe"},{"startTime":1631.139,"endTime":1634.729,"body":"five or six different approaches, right?"},{"startTime":1634.729,"endTime":1638.869,"body":"Because they don't ask for help and"},{"startTime":1634.729,"endTime":1638.869,"body":"they want to stamp their Authority and"},{"startTime":1638.869,"endTime":1642.629,"body":"that gets in the way of them getting"},{"startTime":1638.869,"endTime":1642.629,"body":"help because they don't ask for it."},{"startTime":1642.809,"endTime":1646.419,"body":"It's unfortunate because"},{"startTime":1642.809,"endTime":1646.419,"body":"the repercussions are huge."},{"startTime":1646.569,"endTime":1650.179,"body":"The team follows along usually and"},{"startTime":1646.569,"endTime":1650.179,"body":"they could be like the Pied Piper"},{"startTime":1650.209,"endTime":1653.359,"body":"being led down the wrong street"},{"startTime":1650.209,"endTime":1653.359,"body":"will let me give you an example."},{"startTime":1653.539,"endTime":1658.789,"body":"every time that I have ever had an"},{"startTime":1653.539,"endTime":1658.789,"body":"Indian development team, they have"},{"startTime":1658.789,"endTime":1662.469,"body":"their tech lead and their team members"},{"startTime":1658.789,"endTime":1662.469,"body":"cannot question their tech lead."},{"startTime":1662.579,"endTime":1666.489,"body":"And their tech lead is assumed to"},{"startTime":1662.579,"endTime":1666.489,"body":"always be making the best decision."},{"startTime":1666.749,"endTime":1670.819,"body":"So in that culture, I don't think I've"},{"startTime":1666.749,"endTime":1670.819,"body":"ever been partnered with an Indian"},{"startTime":1670.819,"endTime":1672.509,"body":"tech lead who has asked for help."},{"startTime":1672.659,"endTime":1672.919,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1672.919,"endTime":1675.049,"body":"I mean, I'm trying to reflect"},{"startTime":1672.919,"endTime":1675.049,"body":"on what you just said."},{"startTime":1675.129,"endTime":1676.759,"body":"And it's pretty much true for me as well."},{"startTime":1676.759,"endTime":1681.539,"body":"I think the only time I've seen that"},{"startTime":1676.759,"endTime":1681.539,"body":"work a little bit differently is when"},{"startTime":1681.579,"endTime":1686.979,"body":"I was a consultant for a client in"},{"startTime":1681.579,"endTime":1686.979,"body":"India and they saw me as just the"},{"startTime":1686.979,"endTime":1690.789,"body":"local basically and that's when you"},{"startTime":1686.979,"endTime":1690.789,"body":"can just basically grab the tech lead,"},{"startTime":1690.809,"endTime":1695.779,"body":"go downstairs to streetcars, get him"},{"startTime":1690.809,"endTime":1695.779,"body":"some tea or coffee and talk it out."},{"startTime":1695.859,"endTime":1696.229,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1696.379,"endTime":1697.959,"body":"So yeah, I agree with you."},{"startTime":1698.019,"endTime":1699.789,"body":"It's a cultural thing for sure."},{"startTime":1699.899,"endTime":1702.049,"body":"But it's real, it's everywhere."},{"startTime":1702.099,"endTime":1704.659,"body":"And a lot of the people do outsource."},{"startTime":1704.739,"endTime":1707.789,"body":"So this is something that's probably"},{"startTime":1704.739,"endTime":1707.789,"body":"going to impact more people than not."},{"startTime":1707.939,"endTime":1711.109,"body":"I only bring that up because like"},{"startTime":1707.939,"endTime":1711.109,"body":"everything that we're talking about, it"},{"startTime":1711.109,"endTime":1716.199,"body":"could be ingrained in the culture that"},{"startTime":1711.109,"endTime":1716.199,"body":"you're in which you are doing business."},{"startTime":1716.489,"endTime":1721.709,"body":"You may not be thinking, well, how is the"},{"startTime":1716.489,"endTime":1721.709,"body":"culture responding to what I'm asking?"},{"startTime":1721.709,"endTime":1724.059,"body":"And how's the culture"},{"startTime":1721.709,"endTime":1724.059,"body":"responding to what we're doing?"},{"startTime":1724.209,"endTime":1728.659,"body":"You know, like if I'm not going out"},{"startTime":1724.209,"endTime":1728.659,"body":"of my way to promote the mission and"},{"startTime":1728.659,"endTime":1732.109,"body":"vision of my organization and the"},{"startTime":1728.659,"endTime":1732.109,"body":"vision of my product, and especially"},{"startTime":1732.109,"endTime":1733.539,"body":"if we don't have a working agreement."},{"startTime":1733.689,"endTime":1739.039,"body":"Where we say I as a product manager"},{"startTime":1733.689,"endTime":1739.039,"body":"and you as a developer, I expect that"},{"startTime":1739.129,"endTime":1742.559,"body":"we're going to work through solutions"},{"startTime":1739.129,"endTime":1742.559,"body":"to get to the best solution possible."},{"startTime":1742.819,"endTime":1746.709,"body":"I expect that you're not going to"},{"startTime":1742.819,"endTime":1746.709,"body":"go off and spend days by yourself"},{"startTime":1746.879,"endTime":1750.019,"body":"realizing that basically what we said"},{"startTime":1746.879,"endTime":1750.019,"body":"in refinement is not deep enough."},{"startTime":1750.019,"endTime":1752.529,"body":"Once you get into that section of the code"},{"startTime":1750.019,"endTime":1752.529,"body":"and you realize there's a whole bunch of"},{"startTime":1752.529,"endTime":1755.579,"body":"other stuff that needs to be done, don't"},{"startTime":1752.529,"endTime":1755.579,"body":"work for three days alerting somebody."},{"startTime":1755.729,"endTime":1758.129,"body":"I value you coming back and communicating."},{"startTime":1758.129,"endTime":1761.529,"body":"Hey, this thing that we pointed at a"},{"startTime":1758.129,"endTime":1761.529,"body":"three, I think it's probably closer to"},{"startTime":1761.529,"endTime":1764.739,"body":"an eight because once I got into the"},{"startTime":1761.529,"endTime":1764.739,"body":"code, I realized all these other things"},{"startTime":1764.739,"endTime":1766.709,"body":"were happening and nobody really knew it."},{"startTime":1767.049,"endTime":1768.079,"body":"Let me alert somebody."},{"startTime":1768.079,"endTime":1772.819,"body":"Let me ask for help before continuing"},{"startTime":1768.079,"endTime":1772.819,"body":"this work and, like I said, the"},{"startTime":1772.819,"endTime":1775.679,"body":"culture of, well, I already said"},{"startTime":1772.819,"endTime":1775.679,"body":"it was going to take me two days."},{"startTime":1775.829,"endTime":1779.209,"body":"So whether it takes me two days,"},{"startTime":1775.829,"endTime":1779.209,"body":"meaning two, eight hour shifts or"},{"startTime":1779.209,"endTime":1783.249,"body":"two days, meaning two actual 24"},{"startTime":1779.209,"endTime":1783.249,"body":"hour days, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1783.249,"endTime":1783.529,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1783.529,"endTime":1785.779,"body":"And then I worked a little bit"},{"startTime":1783.529,"endTime":1785.779,"body":"Sunday and then Monday I turned"},{"startTime":1785.779,"endTime":1787.209,"body":"it in and it's ready for release."},{"startTime":1787.359,"endTime":1787.799,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1787.799,"endTime":1791.229,"body":"Like it's two days, two business days, but"},{"startTime":1787.799,"endTime":1791.229,"body":"you don't know about all those extra days."},{"startTime":1791.379,"endTime":1795.869,"body":"It's the same thing culturally, your"},{"startTime":1791.379,"endTime":1795.869,"body":"team might be burning the midnight"},{"startTime":1795.869,"endTime":1799.689,"body":"oil because they promised something"},{"startTime":1795.869,"endTime":1799.689,"body":"and now they feel like they owe you"},{"startTime":1799.689,"endTime":1803.009,"body":"something and that is just a culture"},{"startTime":1799.689,"endTime":1803.009,"body":"but again, I bring it up because  you're"},{"startTime":1803.009,"endTime":1804.559,"body":"just paying for hours basically."},{"startTime":1804.569,"endTime":1808.619,"body":"Like if you're engaging in one of"},{"startTime":1804.569,"endTime":1808.619,"body":"these big services for developers."},{"startTime":1808.769,"endTime":1810.809,"body":"You might not even know you're"},{"startTime":1808.769,"endTime":1810.809,"body":"just gonna get hired end."},{"startTime":1810.839,"endTime":1811.109,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1811.239,"endTime":1813.519,"body":"I would rather have a"},{"startTime":1811.239,"endTime":1813.519,"body":"team that stops when they."},{"startTime":1813.669,"endTime":1817.239,"body":"Encounter something we did not expect"},{"startTime":1813.669,"endTime":1817.239,"body":"when we talked about how we're going"},{"startTime":1817.239,"endTime":1820.539,"body":"to implement something Yeah, I would"},{"startTime":1817.239,"endTime":1820.539,"body":"rather have a team that stops and gets"},{"startTime":1820.539,"endTime":1826.109,"body":"me right Versus a team that just figures"},{"startTime":1820.539,"endTime":1826.109,"body":"it out and never alerts me and I don't"},{"startTime":1826.109,"endTime":1831.559,"body":"know that they're burning the midnight"},{"startTime":1826.109,"endTime":1831.559,"body":"oil Yeah, I think we talked about"},{"startTime":1831.759,"endTime":1834.699,"body":"doing a podcast on doing things right."},{"startTime":1834.849,"endTime":1836.369,"body":"And this will be part of that."},{"startTime":1836.369,"endTime":1839.859,"body":"But if you're in a situation where"},{"startTime":1836.369,"endTime":1839.859,"body":"you have a lot of developers that"},{"startTime":1839.859,"endTime":1841.239,"body":"are in different cultures, right?"},{"startTime":1841.459,"endTime":1843.279,"body":"Different offshore countries."},{"startTime":1843.429,"endTime":1846.339,"body":"One of the things to"},{"startTime":1843.429,"endTime":1846.339,"body":"watch for is exactly that."},{"startTime":1846.359,"endTime":1847.659,"body":"it's People getting stuck."},{"startTime":1847.699,"endTime":1849.709,"body":"Now, they're not going to"},{"startTime":1847.699,"endTime":1849.709,"body":"make it visible necessarily."},{"startTime":1850.019,"endTime":1853.519,"body":"So it's important to set up chat"},{"startTime":1850.019,"endTime":1853.519,"body":"channels and these sorts of things"},{"startTime":1853.519,"endTime":1858.349,"body":"where you can continuously look for and"},{"startTime":1853.519,"endTime":1858.349,"body":"people can feel safe to ask questions."},{"startTime":1858.499,"endTime":1861.349,"body":"it's not a admission of failure"},{"startTime":1858.499,"endTime":1861.349,"body":"if you just put in a chat,"},{"startTime":1861.359,"endTime":1864.599,"body":"Hey, I've been spinning on this"},{"startTime":1861.359,"endTime":1864.599,"body":"for a bit who can help, right?"},{"startTime":1864.749,"endTime":1867.809,"body":"If all Developers are in"},{"startTime":1864.749,"endTime":1867.809,"body":"the same chat channel."},{"startTime":1868.129,"endTime":1872.179,"body":"So you want to try and level that instead"},{"startTime":1868.129,"endTime":1872.179,"body":"of saying, well, the developers are here."},{"startTime":1872.179,"endTime":1873.099,"body":"The tech leads are here."},{"startTime":1873.099,"endTime":1876.309,"body":"The architects are here in that"},{"startTime":1873.099,"endTime":1876.309,"body":"striation really doesn't help."},{"startTime":1876.629,"endTime":1879.679,"body":"So if everyone's in the same place,"},{"startTime":1876.629,"endTime":1879.679,"body":"the product could be in there too,"},{"startTime":1879.679,"endTime":1883.629,"body":"because somebody could say, Does"},{"startTime":1879.679,"endTime":1883.629,"body":"this mean a change of scope for us?"},{"startTime":1883.829,"endTime":1886.869,"body":"And the product person's watching"},{"startTime":1883.829,"endTime":1886.869,"body":"the chat, and they can pipe in"},{"startTime":1886.869,"endTime":1887.939,"body":"and say, Let's talk about this."},{"startTime":1888.089,"endTime":1889.529,"body":"So I think you can do things like that."},{"startTime":1889.679,"endTime":1893.389,"body":"An astute Scrum Master, perhaps,"},{"startTime":1889.679,"endTime":1893.389,"body":"could say to the team, Listen because"},{"startTime":1893.389,"endTime":1896.939,"body":"they're with the team at the daily"},{"startTime":1893.389,"endTime":1896.939,"body":"stand ups or sync ups or whatever."},{"startTime":1897.089,"endTime":1898.719,"body":"You can say, Whenever you get stuck,"},{"startTime":1898.909,"endTime":1899.539,"body":"Let me know."},{"startTime":1899.779,"endTime":1902.019,"body":"I'll see what I can do to"},{"startTime":1899.779,"endTime":1902.019,"body":"kind of get you some help."},{"startTime":1902.219,"endTime":1906.089,"body":"So it's all about that is instilling"},{"startTime":1902.219,"endTime":1906.089,"body":"that culture of being able to put your"},{"startTime":1906.089,"endTime":1908.089,"body":"hand up and say, Hey, I'm stuck here."},{"startTime":1908.239,"endTime":1911.179,"body":"Well, if you're lucky enough to have a"},{"startTime":1908.239,"endTime":1911.179,"body":"scrum master, I would assume like, even"},{"startTime":1911.179,"endTime":1915.529,"body":"if we go back to the most strict way"},{"startTime":1911.179,"endTime":1915.529,"body":"that I was saying we're working before,"},{"startTime":1915.529,"endTime":1919.349,"body":"where you're like 15 minutes, you're"},{"startTime":1915.529,"endTime":1919.349,"body":"stuck, like ping your scrum master."},{"startTime":1919.649,"endTime":1921.739,"body":"Hey, I think we need to"},{"startTime":1919.649,"endTime":1921.739,"body":"put something together."},{"startTime":1921.889,"endTime":1924.259,"body":"I don't know who to talk to about"},{"startTime":1921.889,"endTime":1924.259,"body":"this, they should be jumping all"},{"startTime":1924.259,"endTime":1926.839,"body":"over that or helping you figure"},{"startTime":1924.259,"endTime":1926.839,"body":"out how to jump all over it, right?"},{"startTime":1926.859,"endTime":1927.999,"body":"Cause that might be a thing too."},{"startTime":1928.149,"endTime":1930.359,"body":"I feel like we went down the"},{"startTime":1928.149,"endTime":1930.359,"body":"cultural rabbit hole here,"},{"startTime":1930.359,"endTime":1932.049,"body":"we're on the executive category, right?"},{"startTime":1932.199,"endTime":1932.989,"body":"Or the manager category, right?"},{"startTime":1932.989,"endTime":1934.239,"body":"Manager at this point, yeah."},{"startTime":1934.279,"endTime":1938.759,"body":"You may not be aware that the team"},{"startTime":1934.279,"endTime":1938.759,"body":"members have difficulty asking for"},{"startTime":1938.759,"endTime":1941.149,"body":"help or stopping and re syncing."},{"startTime":1941.169,"endTime":1946.259,"body":"And I feel that culture of saying, Hey,"},{"startTime":1941.169,"endTime":1946.259,"body":"if you see something, say something, if"},{"startTime":1946.259,"endTime":1949.829,"body":"you have a problem, say something, if"},{"startTime":1946.259,"endTime":1949.829,"body":"you can't figure something out, ask for"},{"startTime":1949.829,"endTime":1952.489,"body":"help, that culture is set from the top."},{"startTime":1952.639,"endTime":1956.549,"body":"So in this case of the executives,"},{"startTime":1952.639,"endTime":1956.549,"body":"if there are the type of people that"},{"startTime":1956.749,"endTime":1961.729,"body":"understand that When we cast a wide net"},{"startTime":1956.749,"endTime":1961.729,"body":"to make informed decision making, when we"},{"startTime":1961.729,"endTime":1966.689,"body":"spread our decision making to the teams"},{"startTime":1961.729,"endTime":1966.689,"body":"involved, we get better decisions like"},{"startTime":1966.694,"endTime":1968.909,"body":"that permeates through the organization."},{"startTime":1969.099,"endTime":1973.534,"body":"and if you're, an executive and you think"},{"startTime":1969.099,"endTime":1973.534,"body":"that because you can't make a decision"},{"startTime":1973.684,"endTime":1977.614,"body":"without engaging your teams or asking for"},{"startTime":1973.684,"endTime":1977.614,"body":"feedback before you make the decision, you"},{"startTime":1977.614,"endTime":1979.444,"body":"think that is seen in the organization."},{"startTime":1979.594,"endTime":1982.014,"body":"As being indecisive."},{"startTime":1982.164,"endTime":1984.554,"body":"Oh, this, this leader can"},{"startTime":1982.164,"endTime":1984.554,"body":"never make a quick decision."},{"startTime":1984.564,"endTime":1986.224,"body":"They always want to ask their teams."},{"startTime":1986.284,"endTime":1987.274,"body":"They're indecisive."},{"startTime":1987.424,"endTime":1989.684,"body":"You know, that, that's"},{"startTime":1987.424,"endTime":1989.684,"body":"a, that's a problem."},{"startTime":1989.884,"endTime":1992.224,"body":"Yeah, and I think that"},{"startTime":1989.884,"endTime":1992.224,"body":"is a slippery slope."},{"startTime":1992.224,"endTime":1997.074,"body":"It can, it can go from indecisive"},{"startTime":1992.224,"endTime":1997.074,"body":"to incapable or non qualified."},{"startTime":1997.174,"endTime":2002.074,"body":"so of course, in that scenario, and"},{"startTime":1997.174,"endTime":2002.074,"body":"I guess we moved on to the executive"},{"startTime":2002.074,"endTime":2005.964,"body":"category now Those executives are"},{"startTime":2002.074,"endTime":2005.964,"body":"going to be very guarded, right?"},{"startTime":2006.114,"endTime":2009.444,"body":"At not being perceived as oh,"},{"startTime":2006.114,"endTime":2009.444,"body":"I don't know what I'm doing."},{"startTime":2009.734,"endTime":2013.224,"body":"It's more, it's more"},{"startTime":2009.734,"endTime":2013.224,"body":"like, go do this, right?"},{"startTime":2013.274,"endTime":2017.844,"body":"But if that's not right it's a slight on"},{"startTime":2013.274,"endTime":2017.844,"body":"me because I told you what to do, right?"},{"startTime":2018.144,"endTime":2021.694,"body":"So, they're not going to be welcoming"},{"startTime":2018.144,"endTime":2021.694,"body":"when people have those questions and"},{"startTime":2021.694,"endTime":2023.204,"body":"they raise their hands, so to speak."},{"startTime":2023.354,"endTime":2027.224,"body":"In a ideal situation, it should"},{"startTime":2023.354,"endTime":2027.224,"body":"be like, here's the problem"},{"startTime":2027.224,"endTime":2028.354,"body":"that we want to solve for."},{"startTime":2028.504,"endTime":2029.924,"body":"What is the best way to solve it?"},{"startTime":2030.004,"endTime":2031.674,"body":"It's not an executive."},{"startTime":2031.824,"endTime":2036.624,"body":"Telling the team or even like guiding"},{"startTime":2031.824,"endTime":2036.624,"body":"the team toward a solution through"},{"startTime":2036.834,"endTime":2038.354,"body":"their preferred approach, right?"},{"startTime":2038.354,"endTime":2041.684,"body":"That what they're saying is what is"},{"startTime":2038.354,"endTime":2041.684,"body":"really the best way to do this and"},{"startTime":2041.744,"endTime":2045.174,"body":"letting the team come up with a given"},{"startTime":2041.744,"endTime":2045.174,"body":"the autonomy to be independent and"},{"startTime":2045.174,"endTime":2047.364,"body":"come back with alternate solutions."},{"startTime":2047.514,"endTime":2047.944,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2048.034,"endTime":2051.034,"body":"And then weigh up each"},{"startTime":2048.034,"endTime":2051.034,"body":"solution by its own merit."},{"startTime":2051.184,"endTime":2054.304,"body":"The other thing that I don't think"},{"startTime":2051.184,"endTime":2054.304,"body":"it's talked about often enough is,"},{"startTime":2054.454,"endTime":2057.974,"body":"especially from an executive standpoint,"},{"startTime":2054.454,"endTime":2057.974,"body":"if you want the culture where people"},{"startTime":2057.974,"endTime":2062.844,"body":"feel safe asking questions, then"},{"startTime":2057.974,"endTime":2062.844,"body":"start recognizing when people do that"},{"startTime":2062.864,"endTime":2064.494,"body":"and start rewarding that behavior."},{"startTime":2064.644,"endTime":2067.544,"body":"Because then other people will"},{"startTime":2064.644,"endTime":2067.544,"body":"follow the behavior, right?"},{"startTime":2067.754,"endTime":2069.529,"body":"So when somebody asks a"},{"startTime":2067.754,"endTime":2069.529,"body":"question, just think about it."},{"startTime":2069.829,"endTime":2072.979,"body":"Thank them for it and say, I'm glad you"},{"startTime":2069.829,"endTime":2072.979,"body":"asked it now instead of waiting till the"},{"startTime":2072.979,"endTime":2074.669,"body":"end of the sprint or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":2074.669,"endTime":2078.799,"body":"Because now we can pivot quickly, and"},{"startTime":2074.669,"endTime":2078.799,"body":"other people will see that and say,"},{"startTime":2078.829,"endTime":2080.719,"body":"Oh, it's okay to ask questions, right?"},{"startTime":2080.799,"endTime":2085.549,"body":"So as an executive, you owe it to yourself"},{"startTime":2080.799,"endTime":2085.549,"body":"to try and instill that culture in your"},{"startTime":2085.579,"endTime":2089.859,"body":"own organization, certainly in your own"},{"startTime":2085.579,"endTime":2089.859,"body":"teams, at least and then hopefully it"},{"startTime":2089.859,"endTime":2093.519,"body":"will rub off on your peers, and they"},{"startTime":2089.859,"endTime":2093.519,"body":"will start doing that because that's"},{"startTime":2093.519,"endTime":2097.389,"body":"the biggest stumbling block too for"},{"startTime":2093.519,"endTime":2097.389,"body":"executives is being seen as, incompetent"},{"startTime":2097.389,"endTime":2099.969,"body":"or inadequate in front of their peers."},{"startTime":2100.179,"endTime":2101.559,"body":"They can't have that, right?"},{"startTime":2101.709,"endTime":2104.939,"body":"But it's not that you're actually"},{"startTime":2101.709,"endTime":2104.939,"body":"leveraging the power of your teams."},{"startTime":2105.089,"endTime":2108.959,"body":"And harnessing the power of the"},{"startTime":2105.089,"endTime":2108.959,"body":"collective many minds to land a"},{"startTime":2108.959,"endTime":2110.789,"body":"real solution that's viable yeah."},{"startTime":2110.849,"endTime":2112.649,"body":"Well, you're collaborating"},{"startTime":2110.849,"endTime":2112.649,"body":"to make decisions."},{"startTime":2112.649,"endTime":2112.889,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2112.939,"endTime":2116.574,"body":"even if you have the final"},{"startTime":2112.939,"endTime":2116.574,"body":"say, even if you are the single"},{"startTime":2116.624,"endTime":2117.854,"body":"decision maker, you're the arbiter."},{"startTime":2117.934,"endTime":2119.704,"body":"You can still cast a wide net."},{"startTime":2119.704,"endTime":2120.994,"body":"You can still ask for opinions."},{"startTime":2120.994,"endTime":2124.574,"body":"You can still ask for advice and"},{"startTime":2120.994,"endTime":2124.574,"body":"viewpoints that you may not be aware of."},{"startTime":2124.754,"endTime":2126.224,"body":"That's not weakness."},{"startTime":2126.299,"endTime":2127.418,"body":"that's actually a strength."},{"startTime":2127.448,"endTime":2131.088,"body":"Yeah, it's a strength 'cause you're"},{"startTime":2127.448,"endTime":2131.088,"body":"using people who have the best skills"},{"startTime":2131.088,"endTime":2135.053,"body":"to give you you know, a decision"},{"startTime":2131.088,"endTime":2135.053,"body":"perhaps that's more likely to succeed."},{"startTime":2135.113,"endTime":2139.073,"body":"Well, or, or you're just asking people"},{"startTime":2135.113,"endTime":2139.073,"body":"closest to the work, what they would do."},{"startTime":2139.223,"endTime":2140.333,"body":"And you're just making a decision."},{"startTime":2140.333,"endTime":2144.548,"body":"You're making, you're in making a"},{"startTime":2140.333,"endTime":2144.548,"body":"informed an an informed, an informed,"},{"startTime":2144.653,"endTime":2146.723,"body":"you're making an informed decision."},{"startTime":2146.873,"endTime":2147.943,"body":"But you're, yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":2147.963,"endTime":2151.833,"body":"You are making an informed decision"},{"startTime":2147.963,"endTime":2151.833,"body":"through empowering your teams, right?"},{"startTime":2151.923,"endTime":2153.363,"body":"And that, that can only be a good thing."},{"startTime":2153.513,"endTime":2154.283,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2154.433,"endTime":2157.293,"body":"I mean, the better way is just let"},{"startTime":2154.433,"endTime":2157.293,"body":"the teams make the decisions and"},{"startTime":2157.293,"endTime":2158.723,"body":"then you got to mature to that level."},{"startTime":2158.723,"endTime":2159.063,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2159.253,"endTime":2159.503,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2159.513,"endTime":2162.193,"body":"I bring this up the book that"},{"startTime":2159.513,"endTime":2162.193,"body":"I just got done reading that"},{"startTime":2162.193,"endTime":2163.073,"body":"just went off the screen."},{"startTime":2163.223,"endTime":2167.093,"body":"A book that I just got done reading"},{"startTime":2163.223,"endTime":2167.093,"body":"was the Toyota way to lean leadership."},{"startTime":2167.093,"endTime":2171.303,"body":"it's a pretty dense book, but"},{"startTime":2167.093,"endTime":2171.303,"body":"as far as ideas go by Gary"},{"startTime":2171.303,"endTime":2174.193,"body":"canvas and Jeff Jeffrey Laker."},{"startTime":2174.263,"endTime":2180.413,"body":"But in that book they're talking about the"},{"startTime":2174.263,"endTime":2180.413,"body":"Toyota method of leadership, basically."},{"startTime":2180.563,"endTime":2186.873,"body":"And one of the things that they talk about"},{"startTime":2180.563,"endTime":2186.873,"body":"is the Toyota leaders, the senseis, the"},{"startTime":2186.873,"endTime":2188.743,"body":"people that actually are in management."},{"startTime":2188.893,"endTime":2192.123,"body":"Charisma is not one of the"},{"startTime":2188.893,"endTime":2192.123,"body":"particular things they care about."},{"startTime":2192.133,"endTime":2194.433,"body":"in fact, charisma a lot of times is seen."},{"startTime":2194.583,"endTime":2200.073,"body":"As anathema To what a good Toyota leader,"},{"startTime":2194.583,"endTime":2200.073,"body":"the Toyota leaders are very humble and"},{"startTime":2200.073,"endTime":2204.103,"body":"they want to ask questions, the Toyota"},{"startTime":2200.073,"endTime":2204.103,"body":"kind of questions of hey what's the"},{"startTime":2204.103,"endTime":2207.543,"body":"situation that you were expecting and"},{"startTime":2204.103,"endTime":2207.543,"body":"what's actually happening now and what"},{"startTime":2207.543,"endTime":2210.923,"body":"do you think you can do, there's a series"},{"startTime":2207.543,"endTime":2210.923,"body":"of questions like those charisma doesn't"},{"startTime":2210.923,"endTime":2214.953,"body":"really play a part in any of that, they're"},{"startTime":2210.923,"endTime":2214.953,"body":"asking you, What would be the ideal?"},{"startTime":2214.973,"endTime":2217.343,"body":"If you could solve this problem,"},{"startTime":2214.973,"endTime":2217.343,"body":"what would it look like?"},{"startTime":2217.673,"endTime":2219.553,"body":"You know, what is the next"},{"startTime":2217.673,"endTime":2219.553,"body":"step you're going to try?"},{"startTime":2219.713,"endTime":2221.283,"body":"What is the ideal situation?"},{"startTime":2221.453,"endTime":2223.603,"body":"Well if there's a resolution,"},{"startTime":2221.453,"endTime":2223.603,"body":"what does that look like?"},{"startTime":2223.703,"endTime":2228.313,"body":"they're basically, they resist at all"},{"startTime":2223.703,"endTime":2228.313,"body":"costs telling you what to do because of"},{"startTime":2228.343,"endTime":2231.963,"body":"what they feel is, and I'm paraphrasing"},{"startTime":2228.343,"endTime":2231.963,"body":"the entire book right now in this"},{"startTime":2231.963,"endTime":2236.103,"body":"conversation, what they feel is if they"},{"startTime":2231.963,"endTime":2236.103,"body":"told you then you would not have to think."},{"startTime":2236.353,"endTime":2238.923,"body":"critically and come to"},{"startTime":2236.353,"endTime":2238.923,"body":"a solution on your own."},{"startTime":2239.073,"endTime":2242.213,"body":"And if that happened,"},{"startTime":2239.073,"endTime":2242.213,"body":"you would lose something."},{"startTime":2242.213,"endTime":2245.953,"body":"You, the employee, would lose something"},{"startTime":2242.213,"endTime":2245.953,"body":"by never having to think critically"},{"startTime":2246.103,"endTime":2247.883,"body":"about the work you're engaged in."},{"startTime":2247.883,"endTime":2250.553,"body":"So they would take something away"},{"startTime":2247.883,"endTime":2250.553,"body":"from you if they gave you the"},{"startTime":2250.553,"endTime":2251.713,"body":"answer and told you what to do."},{"startTime":2251.863,"endTime":2253.663,"body":"Wow, that's that is so powerful."},{"startTime":2253.723,"endTime":2255.153,"body":"I really like that concept."},{"startTime":2255.303,"endTime":2258.493,"body":"I have to say, just because there's"},{"startTime":2255.303,"endTime":2258.493,"body":"another hidden factor here, which"},{"startTime":2258.493,"endTime":2260.013,"body":"is they told you what to do."},{"startTime":2260.033,"endTime":2261.693,"body":"You wouldn't think of any"},{"startTime":2260.033,"endTime":2261.693,"body":"other alternate solutions."},{"startTime":2261.843,"endTime":2264.933,"body":"So you're not necessarily getting"},{"startTime":2261.843,"endTime":2264.933,"body":"the best option out of this."},{"startTime":2265.083,"endTime":2270.213,"body":"So in parallel asking you for options,"},{"startTime":2265.083,"endTime":2270.213,"body":"what they're really doing is empowering"},{"startTime":2270.213,"endTime":2271.943,"body":"you to come up with the best solution."},{"startTime":2272.093,"endTime":2273.863,"body":"The employees are closest to the problem."},{"startTime":2273.873,"endTime":2276.513,"body":"They're the ones that"},{"startTime":2273.873,"endTime":2276.513,"body":"are working the system."},{"startTime":2276.803,"endTime":2280.818,"body":"So ask them how They can come up"},{"startTime":2276.803,"endTime":2280.818,"body":"with the best way of working going"},{"startTime":2280.818,"endTime":2282.568,"body":"forward, solving this particular issue."},{"startTime":2282.718,"endTime":2284.038,"body":"I think that's the way to go."},{"startTime":2284.188,"endTime":2287.088,"body":"So there was a couple of"},{"startTime":2284.188,"endTime":2287.088,"body":"through lines on this podcast."},{"startTime":2287.088,"endTime":2288.998,"body":"I mean, obviously ego is one."},{"startTime":2289.148,"endTime":2294.458,"body":"the fear of being seen as not"},{"startTime":2289.148,"endTime":2294.458,"body":"self reliant was another one."},{"startTime":2294.568,"endTime":2295.248,"body":"Inadequacy."},{"startTime":2295.298,"endTime":2297.958,"body":"Project managers, we didn't"},{"startTime":2295.298,"endTime":2297.958,"body":"specifically reference them, but."},{"startTime":2298.108,"endTime":2299.968,"body":"They fall into that category as well."},{"startTime":2299.968,"endTime":2301.948,"body":"They come in and say,"},{"startTime":2299.968,"endTime":2301.948,"body":"I'm the project manager."},{"startTime":2302.098,"endTime":2305.078,"body":"The word manager there"},{"startTime":2302.098,"endTime":2305.078,"body":"speaks lots to this, right?"},{"startTime":2305.228,"endTime":2306.878,"body":"I'm gonna tell you what you have to do."},{"startTime":2306.988,"endTime":2308.648,"body":"I'm gonna tell you when"},{"startTime":2306.988,"endTime":2308.648,"body":"you have to get it done by."},{"startTime":2308.798,"endTime":2311.368,"body":"Never mind the fact that as"},{"startTime":2308.798,"endTime":2311.368,"body":"a project manager, I've never"},{"startTime":2311.368,"endTime":2312.778,"body":"actually done that before."},{"startTime":2312.928,"endTime":2313.188,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2313.338,"endTime":2315.458,"body":"So how can that be successful, honestly?"},{"startTime":2315.468,"endTime":2319.478,"body":"Because people that are being told"},{"startTime":2315.468,"endTime":2319.478,"body":"to do these things are already"},{"startTime":2319.488,"endTime":2320.798,"body":"starting off on the back foot."},{"startTime":2320.948,"endTime":2322.748,"body":"First of all, they're"},{"startTime":2320.948,"endTime":2322.748,"body":"being told what to do."},{"startTime":2322.948,"endTime":2325.548,"body":"goes back to our previous"},{"startTime":2322.948,"endTime":2325.548,"body":"conversation about the Toyota way."},{"startTime":2325.558,"endTime":2327.168,"body":"This is the opposite of that."},{"startTime":2327.318,"endTime":2328.278,"body":"And we don't know that."},{"startTime":2328.338,"endTime":2330.308,"body":"So we haven't evaluated all the options."},{"startTime":2330.368,"endTime":2332.458,"body":"We haven't ruled out that bad options."},{"startTime":2332.528,"endTime":2333.018,"body":"None of that."},{"startTime":2333.168,"endTime":2334.088,"body":"Okay, that's one thing."},{"startTime":2334.098,"endTime":2335.648,"body":"The other thing is the"},{"startTime":2334.098,"endTime":2335.648,"body":"time element, right?"},{"startTime":2335.658,"endTime":2337.738,"body":"You have to do this by this date."},{"startTime":2337.888,"endTime":2341.528,"body":"You know, that's that little the end"},{"startTime":2337.888,"endTime":2341.528,"body":"of the bar on the on the Gantt chart."},{"startTime":2341.768,"endTime":2347.258,"body":"these project manager types, and I"},{"startTime":2341.768,"endTime":2347.258,"body":"confess to being one for many, many years"},{"startTime":2347.288,"endTime":2350.118,"body":"hopefully I've recovered now, they don't"},{"startTime":2347.288,"endTime":2350.118,"body":"want to seem like they don't know what"},{"startTime":2350.148,"endTime":2353.218,"body":"they're doing, they don't want to seem"},{"startTime":2350.148,"endTime":2353.218,"body":"like they're not putting the authority"},{"startTime":2353.368,"endTime":2358.488,"body":"on the project,. managing the project,"},{"startTime":2353.368,"endTime":2358.488,"body":"here's a project plan, it's really"},{"startTime":2358.488,"endTime":2362.058,"body":"nothing more than a schedule at that"},{"startTime":2358.488,"endTime":2362.058,"body":"point, but okay, whatever, right, they"},{"startTime":2362.058,"endTime":2365.258,"body":"want to be able to tell leadership or"},{"startTime":2362.058,"endTime":2365.258,"body":"management, I'll I have a project plan."},{"startTime":2365.258,"endTime":2366.038,"body":"I bought this."},{"startTime":2366.058,"endTime":2367.958,"body":"We're going to bring this"},{"startTime":2366.058,"endTime":2367.958,"body":"in on this date, right?"},{"startTime":2368.108,"endTime":2371.268,"body":"The teams are really kind"},{"startTime":2368.108,"endTime":2371.268,"body":"of hamstrung at that point."},{"startTime":2371.478,"endTime":2374.278,"body":"the fear of rejection or the"},{"startTime":2371.478,"endTime":2374.278,"body":"fear of judgment that you're not"},{"startTime":2374.278,"endTime":2375.288,"body":"doing a good job or whatever."},{"startTime":2375.288,"endTime":2378.048,"body":"Like that, that, that could be"},{"startTime":2375.288,"endTime":2378.048,"body":"applied to pretty much any of the"},{"startTime":2378.068,"endTime":2379.268,"body":"personas that we talk about today."},{"startTime":2379.448,"endTime":2383.688,"body":"Especially executives or middle"},{"startTime":2379.448,"endTime":2383.688,"body":"managers is People will be judging me."},{"startTime":2383.748,"endTime":2385.258,"body":"People will be looking down on me."},{"startTime":2385.438,"endTime":2388.278,"body":"Or people will be rejecting me"},{"startTime":2385.438,"endTime":2388.278,"body":"oh, don't go to that person."},{"startTime":2388.278,"endTime":2389.208,"body":"They're always wrong."},{"startTime":2389.208,"endTime":2390.498,"body":"Oh, their estimates are always wrong."},{"startTime":2390.648,"endTime":2392.228,"body":"Or they always overrun their budget."},{"startTime":2392.428,"endTime":2394.858,"body":"Or they can never control their"},{"startTime":2392.428,"endTime":2394.858,"body":"development teams, or whatever."},{"startTime":2395.168,"endTime":2395.628,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2395.928,"endTime":2399.208,"body":"So throughout this whole thread, right,"},{"startTime":2395.928,"endTime":2399.208,"body":"it can apply to any of the roles."},{"startTime":2399.208,"endTime":2399.358,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2399.503,"endTime":2402.833,"body":"But I think it's most blatant"},{"startTime":2399.503,"endTime":2402.833,"body":"with project managers because"},{"startTime":2402.983,"endTime":2407.543,"body":"they, they publish a schedule a"},{"startTime":2402.983,"endTime":2407.543,"body":"project plans, not really the plan."},{"startTime":2407.823,"endTime":2411.313,"body":"But anyway, they publish it and then"},{"startTime":2407.823,"endTime":2411.313,"body":"lo and behold, they fall behind and"},{"startTime":2411.313,"endTime":2414.413,"body":"immediately they're labeled your"},{"startTime":2411.313,"endTime":2414.413,"body":"projects running behind schedule."},{"startTime":2414.563,"endTime":2416.183,"body":"now you own the project okay."},{"startTime":2416.523,"endTime":2419.293,"body":"So these people are very"},{"startTime":2416.523,"endTime":2419.293,"body":"guarded typically in saying."},{"startTime":2419.443,"endTime":2420.613,"body":"I'm going to do the best I can."},{"startTime":2420.633,"endTime":2422.463,"body":"I'm going to put a whole bunch"},{"startTime":2420.633,"endTime":2422.463,"body":"of padding around everything."},{"startTime":2422.663,"endTime":2423.943,"body":"Yeah that's human nature."},{"startTime":2424.183,"endTime":2425.008,"body":"it's self preservation."},{"startTime":2425.008,"endTime":2426.248,"body":"So you're going to put padding around it."},{"startTime":2426.398,"endTime":2429.728,"body":"And then you try and sell that"},{"startTime":2426.398,"endTime":2429.728,"body":"upstream, but downstream people"},{"startTime":2429.728,"endTime":2430.778,"body":"are not bought into that."},{"startTime":2430.838,"endTime":2434.028,"body":"Even if it's bad, they're not bought into"},{"startTime":2430.838,"endTime":2434.028,"body":"it because they didn't come up with it."},{"startTime":2434.038,"endTime":2435.428,"body":"That's the prima facie reason."},{"startTime":2435.428,"endTime":2436.318,"body":"They didn't come up with it."},{"startTime":2436.468,"endTime":2439.838,"body":"So how can it be successful if they"},{"startTime":2436.468,"endTime":2439.838,"body":"don't own, they don't feel ownership"},{"startTime":2439.838,"endTime":2442.888,"body":"in the work that they're delivering"},{"startTime":2439.838,"endTime":2442.888,"body":"that fulfills your your Gantt chart."},{"startTime":2443.068,"endTime":2447.368,"body":"So, so I feel like project managers"},{"startTime":2443.068,"endTime":2447.368,"body":"They coming back to the whole point"},{"startTime":2447.368,"endTime":2450.788,"body":"of the podcast, they don't ask for"},{"startTime":2447.368,"endTime":2450.788,"body":"help because they're supposed to be"},{"startTime":2450.788,"endTime":2453.078,"body":"the authority on this stuff, right?"},{"startTime":2453.228,"endTime":2456.388,"body":"They're the ones that come up with all"},{"startTime":2453.228,"endTime":2456.388,"body":"this stuff, the network diagrams and the"},{"startTime":2456.388,"endTime":2458.468,"body":"critical paths and whatever else, right?"},{"startTime":2458.618,"endTime":2462.248,"body":"I know that hasn't worked well for"},{"startTime":2458.618,"endTime":2462.248,"body":"us as an industry for a long time."},{"startTime":2462.318,"endTime":2468.538,"body":"I like you just identified a through"},{"startTime":2462.318,"endTime":2468.538,"body":"podcast is don't inflict this on yourself."},{"startTime":2468.608,"endTime":2472.998,"body":"Don't inflict this, not asking for"},{"startTime":2468.608,"endTime":2472.998,"body":"help because you feel That, oh, I'm"},{"startTime":2472.998,"endTime":2474.408,"body":"supposed to be the authority on this."},{"startTime":2474.408,"endTime":2474.498,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2474.498,"endTime":2477.953,"body":"Or I'm supposed to be whatever don't"},{"startTime":2474.498,"endTime":2477.953,"body":"like inflicting this on yourself."},{"startTime":2478.483,"endTime":2482.053,"body":"It is the easiest way to start"},{"startTime":2478.483,"endTime":2482.053,"body":"failing in this category."},{"startTime":2482.103,"endTime":2483.483,"body":"I'm going to give you a parallel here."},{"startTime":2483.513,"endTime":2489.633,"body":"Listen, when a president of a country,"},{"startTime":2483.513,"endTime":2489.633,"body":"a large country falls sick with COVID,"},{"startTime":2489.653,"endTime":2491.623,"body":"let's say just as an example, right?"},{"startTime":2491.633,"endTime":2492.143,"body":"It can happen."},{"startTime":2492.303,"endTime":2496.003,"body":"Do they just engage the"},{"startTime":2492.303,"endTime":2496.003,"body":"services of a single doctor?"},{"startTime":2496.153,"endTime":2497.393,"body":"To say what to do etc."},{"startTime":2497.543,"endTime":2501.973,"body":"I think you'll find there is a huge"},{"startTime":2497.543,"endTime":2501.973,"body":"group of doctors that they work with."},{"startTime":2502.313,"endTime":2505.573,"body":"So why do you need so many doctors?"},{"startTime":2505.723,"endTime":2506.143,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2506.203,"endTime":2507.383,"body":"Because two things."},{"startTime":2507.608,"endTime":2510.468,"body":"First of all, the president"},{"startTime":2507.608,"endTime":2510.468,"body":"wants to be sure he's getting"},{"startTime":2510.468,"endTime":2511.898,"body":"the best advice, he or she."},{"startTime":2512.198,"endTime":2516.338,"body":"And the second thing is, if you were"},{"startTime":2512.198,"endTime":2516.338,"body":"the only doctor there, you're probably"},{"startTime":2516.338,"endTime":2520.528,"body":"going to hedge your bet very widely and"},{"startTime":2516.338,"endTime":2520.528,"body":"say, Here are ten different things you"},{"startTime":2520.528,"endTime":2522.578,"body":"might do in the hope that one might work."},{"startTime":2522.728,"endTime":2525.858,"body":"But you, you're working with your"},{"startTime":2522.728,"endTime":2525.858,"body":"peers, in this case, the other"},{"startTime":2525.858,"endTime":2528.808,"body":"doctors, and collectively you're going"},{"startTime":2525.858,"endTime":2528.808,"body":"to come up with the best solution."},{"startTime":2528.958,"endTime":2532.658,"body":"That's an example, I think, of"},{"startTime":2528.958,"endTime":2532.658,"body":"how it doesn't matter what your"},{"startTime":2532.658,"endTime":2535.708,"body":"role is, where you're at, you"},{"startTime":2532.658,"endTime":2535.708,"body":"really need to ask for help."},{"startTime":2535.858,"endTime":2538.778,"body":"The President, in this case, you"},{"startTime":2535.858,"endTime":2538.778,"body":"could say, is asking for help and"},{"startTime":2538.828,"endTime":2542.848,"body":"tolerating the fact that there are"},{"startTime":2538.828,"endTime":2542.848,"body":"14 people that have to talk with each"},{"startTime":2542.848,"endTime":2544.308,"body":"other before they tell him anything."},{"startTime":2544.308,"endTime":2545.028,"body":"That's right, that's right."},{"startTime":2545.028,"endTime":2545.358,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2545.708,"endTime":2548.588,"body":"So this kind of parallels"},{"startTime":2545.708,"endTime":2548.588,"body":"to our the discussion here."},{"startTime":2548.888,"endTime":2553.398,"body":"If you are the top dog in an organization,"},{"startTime":2548.888,"endTime":2553.398,"body":"the CEO, president, MD, whatever,"},{"startTime":2553.428,"endTime":2557.958,"body":"the head honcho, make sure you don't"},{"startTime":2553.428,"endTime":2557.958,"body":"isolate yourself from this situation"},{"startTime":2557.958,"endTime":2561.978,"body":"of asking for help because you've"},{"startTime":2557.958,"endTime":2561.978,"body":"got a lot going on, first of all, And"},{"startTime":2562.078,"endTime":2563.908,"body":"you've not done this before, possibly."},{"startTime":2564.138,"endTime":2567.668,"body":"Even if you are a serial"},{"startTime":2564.138,"endTime":2567.668,"body":"entrepreneur, every case is different."},{"startTime":2567.818,"endTime":2572.708,"body":"Be open to getting help from people"},{"startTime":2567.818,"endTime":2572.708,"body":"and you might reach out to other people"},{"startTime":2572.708,"endTime":2575.738,"body":"that have, that are in the space or"},{"startTime":2572.708,"endTime":2575.738,"body":"outside of the space that at your"},{"startTime":2575.738,"endTime":2578.188,"body":"level or You know, coaches, right?"},{"startTime":2578.248,"endTime":2580.738,"body":"Executive coaches, for"},{"startTime":2578.248,"endTime":2580.738,"body":"example, engage with them."},{"startTime":2580.798,"endTime":2582.468,"body":"Everybody can use that."},{"startTime":2582.478,"endTime":2582.908,"body":"I feel."},{"startTime":2583.098,"endTime":2586.068,"body":"the funny thing about these categories"},{"startTime":2583.098,"endTime":2586.068,"body":"that we didn't go into, because like,"},{"startTime":2586.078,"endTime":2589.428,"body":"we're not trying to sell anybody on"},{"startTime":2586.078,"endTime":2589.428,"body":"anything is pretty much every one of these"},{"startTime":2589.448,"endTime":2592.438,"body":"personas has their own niche coaches."},{"startTime":2592.458,"endTime":2592.818,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2592.828,"endTime":2597.498,"body":"the developers have digital, but"},{"startTime":2592.828,"endTime":2597.498,"body":"product management has product coaches."},{"startTime":2597.668,"endTime":2599.578,"body":"Executives have executive coaching."},{"startTime":2599.788,"endTime":2601.388,"body":"You know, everyone has, coaches."},{"startTime":2601.548,"endTime":2602.548,"body":"Everybody needs coaches."},{"startTime":2602.618,"endTime":2605.918,"body":"You know, the champion teams"},{"startTime":2602.618,"endTime":2605.918,"body":"in your favorite sport."},{"startTime":2606.188,"endTime":2607.478,"body":"They won last year."},{"startTime":2607.478,"endTime":2608.148,"body":"They won the cup."},{"startTime":2608.178,"endTime":2609.488,"body":"They won the world cup or whatever."},{"startTime":2609.488,"endTime":2610.508,"body":"They still got a coach."},{"startTime":2610.658,"endTime":2611.248,"body":"Just saying."},{"startTime":2611.398,"endTime":2614.598,"body":"And hired them back again six months"},{"startTime":2611.398,"endTime":2614.598,"body":"later because it's just not going to work."},{"startTime":2614.688,"endTime":2616.208,"body":"The hire and fire cycle."},{"startTime":2616.238,"endTime":2618.098,"body":"they point that out in the Toyota way."},{"startTime":2618.288,"endTime":2622.753,"body":"if you're in this when the businesses"},{"startTime":2618.288,"endTime":2622.753,"body":"on the downturn, you just fire everyone"},{"startTime":2622.783,"endTime":2625.983,"body":"or whatever, when the business on"},{"startTime":2622.783,"endTime":2625.983,"body":"the upswing, you have a mass hiring,"},{"startTime":2625.983,"endTime":2629.403,"body":"you hire too many people like that"},{"startTime":2625.983,"endTime":2629.403,"body":"rollercoaster cycle, That doesn't"},{"startTime":2629.493,"endTime":2631.373,"body":"work was the irony of that, right?"},{"startTime":2631.373,"endTime":2633.993,"body":"So when the business is on the"},{"startTime":2631.373,"endTime":2633.993,"body":"downturn, you fired everybody."},{"startTime":2634.033,"endTime":2637.223,"body":"What do you, when do you really"},{"startTime":2634.033,"endTime":2637.223,"body":"need help when it's on the downturn?"},{"startTime":2637.423,"endTime":2639.033,"body":"So that's the irony of it for me."},{"startTime":2639.183,"endTime":2639.653,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2639.853,"endTime":2644.453,"body":"If we're going to give any coaching"},{"startTime":2639.853,"endTime":2644.453,"body":"advice this podcast is no matter"},{"startTime":2644.453,"endTime":2648.113,"body":"if you're a developer or design,"},{"startTime":2644.453,"endTime":2648.113,"body":"you are, you're X person, project"},{"startTime":2648.153,"endTime":2653.083,"body":"manager, executive manager, QA,"},{"startTime":2648.153,"endTime":2653.083,"body":"product management, and you feel that"},{"startTime":2653.093,"endTime":2654.533,"body":"you're not developing your skills."},{"startTime":2654.683,"endTime":2658.593,"body":"Like you're not getting coaching, maybe"},{"startTime":2654.683,"endTime":2658.593,"body":"your product leaders are not coaching you"},{"startTime":2658.593,"endTime":2660.303,"body":"or like maybe there's nobody qualified."},{"startTime":2660.303,"endTime":2662.423,"body":"Maybe you're the only product"},{"startTime":2660.303,"endTime":2662.423,"body":"manager in your company."},{"startTime":2662.573,"endTime":2664.373,"body":"There's no one to coach you, right?"},{"startTime":2664.663,"endTime":2668.143,"body":"Use some of them training dollars,"},{"startTime":2664.663,"endTime":2668.143,"body":"get, get coaching, get help, get an"},{"startTime":2668.153,"endTime":2670.063,"body":"outside opinion, there are events."},{"startTime":2670.063,"endTime":2671.033,"body":"There are meetup events."},{"startTime":2671.063,"endTime":2673.593,"body":"There are places you can go to go"},{"startTime":2671.063,"endTime":2673.593,"body":"to lean coffees, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2673.913,"endTime":2675.273,"body":"Maybe sponsor a lean coffee."},{"startTime":2675.423,"endTime":2679.663,"body":"by visiting these events, you"},{"startTime":2675.423,"endTime":2679.663,"body":"might be able to secure a mentor."},{"startTime":2679.763,"endTime":2680.103,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2680.113,"endTime":2681.303,"body":"and get them to mentor you."},{"startTime":2681.593,"endTime":2684.583,"body":"Now that's a low cost entry here, right?"},{"startTime":2684.633,"endTime":2686.843,"body":"I mean, anyone can,"},{"startTime":2684.633,"endTime":2686.843,"body":"should be able to do that."},{"startTime":2686.863,"endTime":2687.973,"body":"You just got to invest in yourself."},{"startTime":2687.993,"endTime":2688.863,"body":"Think of it that way."},{"startTime":2689.013,"endTime":2690.003,"body":"So yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2690.003,"endTime":2690.243,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2690.403,"endTime":2691.263,"body":"Take that first step."},{"startTime":2691.413,"endTime":2694.703,"body":"Take that first step and also"},{"startTime":2691.413,"endTime":2694.703,"body":"take that first step to like,"},{"startTime":2694.703,"endTime":2697.143,"body":"as a scribe, this podcast,"},{"startTime":2697.174,"endTime":2700.794,"body":"every time you subscribe,"},{"startTime":2697.174,"endTime":2700.794,"body":"it helps us a ton."},{"startTime":2700.844,"endTime":2701.244,"body":"Trust me."},{"startTime":2701.244,"endTime":2704.254,"body":"You have no idea how much it helps"},{"startTime":2701.244,"endTime":2704.254,"body":"a tiny little small channel like us."},{"startTime":2704.584,"endTime":2705.654,"body":"We're not trying to sell you anything."},{"startTime":2705.684,"endTime":2706.914,"body":"You're not going to get our newsletter."},{"startTime":2706.954,"endTime":2707.154,"body":"Nope."},{"startTime":2707.164,"endTime":2709.794,"body":"You're not going to get our,"},{"startTime":2707.164,"endTime":2709.794,"body":"our Patreon or whatever."},{"startTime":2710.084,"endTime":2710.644,"body":"Yeah, we won't."},{"startTime":2710.674,"endTime":2714.064,"body":"I, I, and we won't ask you to buy our"},{"startTime":2710.674,"endTime":2714.064,"body":"training book or anything like that,"},{"startTime":2714.354,"endTime":2718.304,"body":"but every time you like and subscribe a"},{"startTime":2714.354,"endTime":2718.304,"body":"puppy smiles somewhere, think about that."}]}