{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":13.087,"body":"Welcome back to arguing agile."},{"startTime":13.147,"endTime":14.037,"body":"I was on the team once."},{"startTime":14.237,"endTime":17.157,"body":"And the director of the department,"},{"startTime":14.237,"endTime":17.157,"body":"for all the teams, would go"},{"startTime":17.157,"endTime":18.437,"body":"up to individual developers."},{"startTime":18.667,"endTime":22.017,"body":"And he would always know that he's"},{"startTime":18.667,"endTime":22.017,"body":"about to introduce a work item"},{"startTime":22.257,"endTime":24.377,"body":"that he wants done under the radar."},{"startTime":24.667,"endTime":27.957,"body":"Because he would walk up and"},{"startTime":24.667,"endTime":27.957,"body":"he would say, Hey, buddy!"},{"startTime":28.107,"endTime":29.377,"body":"The old, Hey buddy."},{"startTime":29.527,"endTime":30.667,"body":"That doesn't happen much though."},{"startTime":30.667,"endTime":31.057,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":31.207,"endTime":33.597,"body":"It happens all the time"},{"startTime":31.207,"endTime":33.597,"body":"in product management."},{"startTime":33.597,"endTime":37.177,"body":"We call this thing, the shadow"},{"startTime":33.597,"endTime":37.177,"body":"backlog the shadow backlog is"},{"startTime":37.177,"endTime":40.037,"body":"real and it will haunt you."},{"startTime":40.307,"endTime":41.347,"body":"So this is your podcast."},{"startTime":41.397,"endTime":42.837,"body":"you're going to learn"},{"startTime":41.397,"endTime":42.837,"body":"a lot today, hopefully."},{"startTime":42.987,"endTime":45.877,"body":"the first thing we want to talk"},{"startTime":42.987,"endTime":45.877,"body":"about was this informal request"},{"startTime":45.877,"endTime":47.947,"body":"is this old Pat on the back."},{"startTime":47.997,"endTime":51.117,"body":"Hey buddy, you're such a great, you"},{"startTime":47.997,"endTime":51.117,"body":"use this example on other podcasts."},{"startTime":51.117,"endTime":52.617,"body":"So you're like, you're"},{"startTime":51.117,"endTime":52.617,"body":"such a great developer."},{"startTime":52.617,"endTime":54.417,"body":"You can knock this out in five minutes."},{"startTime":54.477,"endTime":57.947,"body":"Or whatever your estimate is I'll just"},{"startTime":54.477,"endTime":57.947,"body":"say real high, and then cut it in half."},{"startTime":57.997,"endTime":61.237,"body":"So I have referenced this before, I"},{"startTime":57.997,"endTime":61.237,"body":"think, at least a couple of times."},{"startTime":61.487,"endTime":63.717,"body":"This is what I call ego"},{"startTime":61.487,"endTime":63.717,"body":"stroking, basically, right?"},{"startTime":63.747,"endTime":65.667,"body":"Somebody's gonna come to you"},{"startTime":63.747,"endTime":65.667,"body":"and say, you're awesome, you"},{"startTime":65.667,"endTime":66.827,"body":"can do this, you got this."},{"startTime":67.127,"endTime":68.207,"body":"And it won't take you long."},{"startTime":68.527,"endTime":72.257,"body":"And before you know it, days go by and"},{"startTime":68.527,"endTime":72.257,"body":"you're still in the middle of this mess."},{"startTime":72.407,"endTime":76.527,"body":"definitely that is one way to spot"},{"startTime":72.407,"endTime":76.527,"body":"what is coming at you In your shadow"},{"startTime":76.807,"endTime":80.357,"body":"backlog because it's not defined up"},{"startTime":76.807,"endTime":80.357,"body":"front in your actual backlog, and"},{"startTime":80.367,"endTime":82.337,"body":"you're working on this stuff, right?"},{"startTime":82.357,"endTime":86.467,"body":"Somebody told you to, or asked you"},{"startTime":82.357,"endTime":86.467,"body":"to sometimes it's a bit more formal."},{"startTime":86.607,"endTime":91.387,"body":"The CEO or COO, somebody fairly high"},{"startTime":86.607,"endTime":91.387,"body":"up, CXO, they'll come to you and say,"},{"startTime":91.587,"endTime":95.247,"body":"I got to ask you to do this for me"},{"startTime":91.587,"endTime":95.247,"body":"because we're going to show this at"},{"startTime":95.317,"endTime":98.797,"body":"a conference that's taken place and"},{"startTime":95.317,"endTime":98.797,"body":"it's important for the company, right?"},{"startTime":99.087,"endTime":103.177,"body":"So you do it because you know, well,"},{"startTime":99.087,"endTime":103.177,"body":"their management, that's another way."},{"startTime":103.227,"endTime":107.517,"body":"It's like, Hey buddy, but it's more like"},{"startTime":103.227,"endTime":107.517,"body":"with a, a tone of, you want to do this?"},{"startTime":107.577,"endTime":108.687,"body":"Hey buddy, or else."},{"startTime":108.727,"endTime":109.343,"body":"Yeah, Exactly."},{"startTime":109.343,"endTime":114.49,"body":"So that's another way of spotting"},{"startTime":109.343,"endTime":114.49,"body":"uh, the source of uh, items that"},{"startTime":114.49,"endTime":116.866,"body":"are coming into your shadow backlog."},{"startTime":116.916,"endTime":121.036,"body":"I've seen managers, direct managers in"},{"startTime":116.916,"endTime":121.036,"body":"matrix organizations where the product"},{"startTime":121.056,"endTime":125.426,"body":"management people and the developers"},{"startTime":121.056,"endTime":125.426,"body":"are, owned by different people, different"},{"startTime":125.436,"endTime":126.836,"body":"hiring managers in the organization."},{"startTime":126.986,"endTime":129.486,"body":"And then the hiring manager"},{"startTime":126.986,"endTime":129.486,"body":"says, well, this is my person."},{"startTime":129.546,"endTime":131.836,"body":"They're just going to knock out this"},{"startTime":129.546,"endTime":131.836,"body":"thing real quick and then there'll be"},{"startTime":131.926,"endTime":134.186,"body":"available for but they haven't told anyone"},{"startTime":134.246,"endTime":134.506,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":134.586,"endTime":136.286,"body":"it's taking time out of their day."},{"startTime":136.466,"endTime":136.796,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":136.936,"endTime":138.876,"body":"And they don't talk to"},{"startTime":136.936,"endTime":138.876,"body":"product people because of that"},{"startTime":138.876,"endTime":139.796,"body":"reason you mentioned, right."},{"startTime":139.796,"endTime":141.116,"body":"They're completely separate."},{"startTime":141.266,"endTime":144.876,"body":"You said, they have their people,"},{"startTime":141.266,"endTime":144.876,"body":"their resources as they call them"},{"startTime":144.876,"endTime":146.956,"body":"often that are seconded to the project."},{"startTime":147.106,"endTime":148.946,"body":"So yeah, they'll pull their favors."},{"startTime":148.946,"endTime":152.006,"body":"And yeah, that's another"},{"startTime":148.946,"endTime":152.006,"body":"way to see shadow backlog."},{"startTime":152.056,"endTime":153.276,"body":"You don't actually see it though."},{"startTime":153.276,"endTime":154.136,"body":"Ironically, right?"},{"startTime":154.416,"endTime":158.716,"body":"It's, they're kind of lurking and"},{"startTime":154.416,"endTime":158.716,"body":"it's taking bandwidth away from"},{"startTime":158.716,"endTime":163.646,"body":"The other, the other part of this,"},{"startTime":158.716,"endTime":163.646,"body":"the, informal requests at ad hoc"},{"startTime":163.646,"endTime":167.526,"body":"system of interrupting people basically"},{"startTime":163.646,"endTime":167.526,"body":"that I've seen is I told this story"},{"startTime":167.526,"endTime":172.196,"body":"on a podcast once a million years"},{"startTime":167.526,"endTime":172.196,"body":"ago, We were integrating a vendor"},{"startTime":172.196,"endTime":173.756,"body":"product into our mobile product."},{"startTime":173.756,"endTime":176.896,"body":"at the vendor company we were using,"},{"startTime":173.756,"endTime":176.896,"body":"they had a development team that was"},{"startTime":176.896,"endTime":180.566,"body":"producing our product and somebody"},{"startTime":176.896,"endTime":180.566,"body":"thought it would be a good idea to have"},{"startTime":180.566,"endTime":184.626,"body":"a shared Slack channel, our development"},{"startTime":180.566,"endTime":184.626,"body":"team and their development team together."},{"startTime":184.776,"endTime":190.496,"body":"But I believe it ended up being managers"},{"startTime":184.776,"endTime":190.496,"body":"and project people and whatever, what"},{"startTime":190.496,"endTime":193.806,"body":"would end up happening is multiple"},{"startTime":190.496,"endTime":193.806,"body":"times throughout the day, somebody"},{"startTime":193.806,"endTime":196.706,"body":"would ping our developers in that"},{"startTime":193.806,"endTime":196.706,"body":"channel and say, Hey, this thing."},{"startTime":196.856,"endTime":198.826,"body":"You know, this API request"},{"startTime":196.856,"endTime":198.826,"body":"is coming back with this."},{"startTime":198.826,"endTime":202.206,"body":"Can you change it so it's like this"},{"startTime":198.826,"endTime":202.206,"body":"or this this mobile transaction"},{"startTime":202.206,"endTime":203.546,"body":"is passing these variables."},{"startTime":203.546,"endTime":204.566,"body":"We want to add another one."},{"startTime":204.566,"endTime":206.656,"body":"Can you make sure that you're"},{"startTime":204.566,"endTime":206.656,"body":"accepting it on your side?"},{"startTime":206.656,"endTime":208.376,"body":"I can't remember what it was"},{"startTime":206.656,"endTime":208.376,"body":"like, little things like that."},{"startTime":208.376,"endTime":211.686,"body":"They would, and then our developers"},{"startTime":208.376,"endTime":211.686,"body":"would go in and start making changes."},{"startTime":211.836,"endTime":214.896,"body":"And then you would say like, Hey,"},{"startTime":211.836,"endTime":214.896,"body":"why are you still working on that?"},{"startTime":214.936,"endTime":216.896,"body":"Like we are, I thought"},{"startTime":214.936,"endTime":216.896,"body":"we were releasing that."},{"startTime":216.936,"endTime":217.266,"body":"Oh no."},{"startTime":217.266,"endTime":220.456,"body":"the vendor team asked me"},{"startTime":217.266,"endTime":220.456,"body":"to add one little change."},{"startTime":220.626,"endTime":224.026,"body":"Without discussion with the product"},{"startTime":220.626,"endTime":224.026,"body":"people, none of that, right."},{"startTime":224.036,"endTime":224.596,"body":"Without discussion."},{"startTime":224.746,"endTime":226.576,"body":"And that is very prevalent."},{"startTime":226.616,"endTime":229.686,"body":"I mean, anytime you have a channel"},{"startTime":226.616,"endTime":229.686,"body":"that's open like that, it really"},{"startTime":229.686,"endTime":231.336,"body":"needs to be very carefully curated."},{"startTime":231.486,"endTime":234.736,"body":"Otherwise you are going to run this"},{"startTime":231.486,"endTime":234.736,"body":"risk, especially if stakeholders"},{"startTime":234.736,"endTime":237.416,"body":"are involved because that's"},{"startTime":234.736,"endTime":237.416,"body":"their conduit into the team."},{"startTime":237.416,"endTime":237.646,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":237.916,"endTime":238.286,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":238.436,"endTime":239.316,"body":"They're like water."},{"startTime":239.336,"endTime":244.346,"body":"They're taking the path of release"},{"startTime":239.336,"endTime":244.346,"body":"resistance because they are perceiving"},{"startTime":244.416,"endTime":250.056,"body":"going through the quote, normal backlog"},{"startTime":244.416,"endTime":250.056,"body":"channel as you know, overly burdensome."},{"startTime":250.266,"endTime":254.216,"body":"Prohibitive sometimes you're overly"},{"startTime":250.266,"endTime":254.216,"body":"bureaucratic I got to have an hour"},{"startTime":254.216,"endTime":256.046,"body":"long meeting with your product manager."},{"startTime":256.046,"endTime":256.836,"body":"I don't want to do that."},{"startTime":256.846,"endTime":260.406,"body":"Or they just don't know"},{"startTime":256.846,"endTime":260.406,"body":"what the correct process."},{"startTime":260.556,"endTime":260.866,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":260.936,"endTime":261.176,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":261.176,"endTime":261.926,"body":"That's very likely."},{"startTime":261.926,"endTime":264.446,"body":"They don't know, but just like"},{"startTime":261.926,"endTime":264.446,"body":"water, I mean, it will fill"},{"startTime":264.446,"endTime":265.756,"body":"up the space that's there."},{"startTime":265.906,"endTime":269.206,"body":"let's just briefly talk"},{"startTime":265.906,"endTime":269.206,"body":"about ad hoc, right?"},{"startTime":269.246,"endTime":271.906,"body":"So ad hoc, it's fine"},{"startTime":269.246,"endTime":271.906,"body":"to have ad hoc, right?"},{"startTime":271.926,"endTime":275.106,"body":"You solicit feedback from your customers"},{"startTime":271.926,"endTime":275.106,"body":"and they can, they don't have to"},{"startTime":275.106,"endTime":276.716,"body":"be cadenced or anything like that."},{"startTime":276.736,"endTime":279.206,"body":"they can give you the feedback"},{"startTime":276.736,"endTime":279.206,"body":"at any point, but it needs"},{"startTime":279.206,"endTime":280.346,"body":"to be triaged properly."},{"startTime":280.496,"endTime":280.796,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":280.836,"endTime":284.166,"body":"It needs to be carefully"},{"startTime":280.836,"endTime":284.166,"body":"incorporated into the main backlog."},{"startTime":284.166,"endTime":286.786,"body":"So it doesn't end up just being"},{"startTime":284.166,"endTime":286.786,"body":"worked on out of sight, out"},{"startTime":286.786,"endTime":288.396,"body":"of mind in a shadow backlog."},{"startTime":288.546,"endTime":291.956,"body":"So I, I don't want us to kind"},{"startTime":288.546,"endTime":291.956,"body":"of say clamp down on that."},{"startTime":291.956,"endTime":293.426,"body":"Oh, that's not what we're saying here."},{"startTime":293.476,"endTime":293.766,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":293.816,"endTime":295.606,"body":"We're just saying there's"},{"startTime":293.816,"endTime":295.606,"body":"the right way to do things."},{"startTime":295.656,"endTime":297.716,"body":"So yeah, I forgot what we were going on."},{"startTime":297.716,"endTime":300.886,"body":"I was going to say we, we were"},{"startTime":297.716,"endTime":300.886,"body":"just about to say, oh, it sounds"},{"startTime":300.886,"endTime":301.956,"body":"like you're not a team player."},{"startTime":301.956,"endTime":304.076,"body":"When your boss comes to you and says,"},{"startTime":301.956,"endTime":304.076,"body":"I need you to do this one thing."},{"startTime":304.076,"endTime":306.336,"body":"And then you say, have you"},{"startTime":304.076,"endTime":306.336,"body":"talked to my product manager?"},{"startTime":306.336,"endTime":310.026,"body":"Like he's he would be interested to know"},{"startTime":306.336,"endTime":310.026,"body":"what when it comes yearly review time"},{"startTime":310.256,"endTime":313.706,"body":"you know, same, same thing could happen"},{"startTime":310.256,"endTime":313.706,"body":"if you say, well I request you to go"},{"startTime":313.706,"endTime":315.756,"body":"talk to my scrum master, same thing."},{"startTime":315.906,"endTime":316.136,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":316.136,"endTime":318.546,"body":"Except same thing, except we"},{"startTime":316.136,"endTime":318.546,"body":"can fire the scrum master."},{"startTime":318.696,"endTime":319.675,"body":"Because they work for a development."},{"startTime":319.676,"endTime":320.186,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":320.386,"endTime":321.096,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":321.396,"endTime":324.166,"body":"So there is that, there is that"},{"startTime":321.396,"endTime":324.166,"body":"real possibility that you're,"},{"startTime":324.196,"endTime":325.616,"body":"you're not seen as a team player."},{"startTime":325.616,"endTime":327.766,"body":"You're not doing what"},{"startTime":325.616,"endTime":327.766,"body":"someone's asking you for."},{"startTime":327.766,"endTime":329.116,"body":"You're not a true collaborator."},{"startTime":329.206,"endTime":329.586,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":329.606,"endTime":331.446,"body":"Whereas the reality is"},{"startTime":329.606,"endTime":331.446,"body":"you should really be."},{"startTime":331.596,"endTime":332.865,"body":"Not doing that."},{"startTime":333.015,"endTime":334.725,"body":"Listen, Ohm we got to move fast."},{"startTime":334.725,"endTime":336.345,"body":"We can always be talking about process."},{"startTime":336.385,"endTime":338.665,"body":"This process that that's"},{"startTime":336.385,"endTime":338.665,"body":"the other way I've heard."},{"startTime":338.785,"endTime":342.565,"body":"Yeah, it's, I mean, it's very"},{"startTime":338.785,"endTime":342.565,"body":"gaslighting, but speed is everything."},{"startTime":342.565,"endTime":345.425,"body":"Yeah, that's how I've heard people"},{"startTime":342.565,"endTime":345.425,"body":"justify this, this, what we're"},{"startTime":345.425,"endTime":349.775,"body":"talking about now, this informal"},{"startTime":345.425,"endTime":349.775,"body":"request system of you, you, you, you"},{"startTime":349.775,"endTime":352.025,"body":"scratch my back and I don't fire you."},{"startTime":352.175,"endTime":353.225,"body":"There's no benefit in it."},{"startTime":353.225,"endTime":355.205,"body":"I mean, it's just it actually"},{"startTime":353.225,"endTime":355.205,"body":"is making your day worse because"},{"startTime":355.215,"endTime":357.735,"body":"now you're failing on everything"},{"startTime":355.215,"endTime":357.735,"body":"else you committed to, Right."},{"startTime":357.755,"endTime":358.015,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":358.015,"endTime":359.805,"body":"There's really nothing good"},{"startTime":358.015,"endTime":359.805,"body":"that can come out of it."},{"startTime":360.145,"endTime":363.745,"body":"If I'm going to be a little more"},{"startTime":360.145,"endTime":363.745,"body":"like the informal request network,"},{"startTime":363.775,"endTime":366.725,"body":"altering the products and whatever,"},{"startTime":363.775,"endTime":366.725,"body":"I'll be harsh on that one because"},{"startTime":366.725,"endTime":368.365,"body":"rightfully so like I should be."},{"startTime":368.515,"endTime":373.985,"body":"Workarounds and quick fixes or hot"},{"startTime":368.515,"endTime":373.985,"body":"fixes or, you know break fixes."},{"startTime":373.985,"endTime":376.405,"body":"basically something breaks in"},{"startTime":373.985,"endTime":376.405,"body":"production and we now have to"},{"startTime":376.405,"endTime":378.455,"body":"have the fire drill to put it out."},{"startTime":378.605,"endTime":381.285,"body":"this is one of the categories where"},{"startTime":378.605,"endTime":381.285,"body":"like of course We should stop what we're"},{"startTime":381.285,"endTime":384.555,"body":"doing and fix that You know the only"},{"startTime":381.285,"endTime":384.555,"body":"I feel  nobody gets into trouble with"},{"startTime":384.585,"endTime":387.525,"body":"prioritization with this one I feel where"},{"startTime":384.585,"endTime":387.525,"body":"people get into troubles when they have"},{"startTime":387.525,"endTime":391.415,"body":"systems where this stuff happens all the"},{"startTime":387.525,"endTime":391.415,"body":"time Now you can't be a your commitments"},{"startTime":391.425,"endTime":393.185,"body":"because you you have no control of this."},{"startTime":393.335,"endTime":397.505,"body":"Well that speaks to Volumes to"},{"startTime":393.335,"endTime":397.505,"body":"the quality or lack of it of the"},{"startTime":397.505,"endTime":398.845,"body":"process as well as the product."},{"startTime":398.885,"endTime":399.685,"body":"Maybe so."},{"startTime":399.865,"endTime":401.195,"body":"But there is something else there, right?"},{"startTime":401.205,"endTime":402.935,"body":"If you're fixing things in production."},{"startTime":403.085,"endTime":407.045,"body":"Okay, you have to fix things, so fine,"},{"startTime":403.085,"endTime":407.045,"body":"do it, but at the same time, don't"},{"startTime":407.045,"endTime":409.255,"body":"neglect documenting things, right?"},{"startTime":409.435,"endTime":413.655,"body":"Don't neglect reflecting back and figuring"},{"startTime":409.435,"endTime":413.655,"body":"out why is it, could we have avoided it?"},{"startTime":413.675,"endTime":415.715,"body":"How can we not repeat that again?"},{"startTime":415.865,"endTime":419.875,"body":"So all of those things have to follow"},{"startTime":415.865,"endTime":419.875,"body":"and typically you find that because"},{"startTime":419.875,"endTime":421.895,"body":"you're at the tyranny of time, right?"},{"startTime":421.915,"endTime":425.155,"body":"They don't follow because you're"},{"startTime":421.915,"endTime":425.155,"body":"just break fixing after break fixing."},{"startTime":425.485,"endTime":428.905,"body":"Well, that's the thing about quick"},{"startTime":425.485,"endTime":428.905,"body":"fixes is they're done quickly."},{"startTime":429.055,"endTime":433.555,"body":"Who's to say that like that ever"},{"startTime":429.055,"endTime":433.555,"body":"makes it back to the permanent code."},{"startTime":433.655,"endTime":436.795,"body":"Like I have seen quick fixes"},{"startTime":433.655,"endTime":436.795,"body":"that are applied in production."},{"startTime":436.945,"endTime":441.805,"body":"And then the next time a release rolls"},{"startTime":436.945,"endTime":441.805,"body":"out into production, the thing gets broken"},{"startTime":441.805,"endTime":443.685,"body":"again because it was never really fixed."},{"startTime":443.735,"endTime":444.345,"body":"yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":444.495,"endTime":444.765,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":444.765,"endTime":445.975,"body":"I've seen that for sure."},{"startTime":445.975,"endTime":447.735,"body":"Especially in products where."},{"startTime":448.085,"endTime":451.835,"body":"You can do that through scripting"},{"startTime":448.085,"endTime":451.835,"body":"or some other means or manipulating"},{"startTime":451.835,"endTime":453.385,"body":"SQL or whatever it is, right?"},{"startTime":453.535,"endTime":456.365,"body":"So that's really masking"},{"startTime":453.535,"endTime":456.365,"body":"the symptom, right?"},{"startTime":456.365,"endTime":457.815,"body":"It's not fixing the root cause."},{"startTime":457.965,"endTime":460.815,"body":"But again, it comes down to sound"},{"startTime":457.965,"endTime":460.815,"body":"engineering principles there, right?"},{"startTime":460.815,"endTime":464.565,"body":"If you're going to fix it, fix it,"},{"startTime":460.815,"endTime":464.565,"body":"but then do a proper fix, put it into"},{"startTime":464.565,"endTime":466.655,"body":"the code, test it and all of that."},{"startTime":466.675,"endTime":466.915,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":466.945,"endTime":469.945,"body":"Unless it's pressure tested before"},{"startTime":466.945,"endTime":469.945,"body":"it releases again, you're going to"},{"startTime":469.945,"endTime":471.545,"body":"find that it's never really fixed."},{"startTime":471.685,"endTime":474.145,"body":"But allow me to make"},{"startTime":471.685,"endTime":474.145,"body":"the situation way worse."},{"startTime":474.155,"endTime":477.715,"body":"So now our team that does feature"},{"startTime":474.155,"endTime":477.715,"body":"development, we say, well, we"},{"startTime":477.715,"endTime":480.545,"body":"want to unburden them just to"},{"startTime":477.715,"endTime":480.545,"body":"be purely feature development."},{"startTime":480.655,"endTime":482.875,"body":"So we're going to hire this other"},{"startTime":480.655,"endTime":482.875,"body":"team that they're just going"},{"startTime":482.875,"endTime":485.755,"body":"to do break fixes in production"},{"startTime":482.875,"endTime":485.755,"body":"because it's become such a problem."},{"startTime":485.975,"endTime":487.825,"body":"So now this other team that is constantly."},{"startTime":487.975,"endTime":491.265,"body":"In the code, this new team, doing"},{"startTime":487.975,"endTime":491.265,"body":"break fixes, maybe an offshore"},{"startTime":491.265,"endTime":495.695,"body":"team, it's doing break fixes and"},{"startTime":491.265,"endTime":495.695,"body":"responding to support issues."},{"startTime":495.845,"endTime":499.465,"body":"They're in the code base, fixing"},{"startTime":495.845,"endTime":499.465,"body":"issues that come up while the other"},{"startTime":499.465,"endTime":502.705,"body":"team is introducing new features"},{"startTime":499.465,"endTime":502.705,"body":"into the code at the same time."},{"startTime":502.705,"endTime":505.375,"body":"So both those teams are working"},{"startTime":502.705,"endTime":505.375,"body":"at the same time and now."},{"startTime":505.525,"endTime":508.655,"body":"You see where the, like the, you're"},{"startTime":505.525,"endTime":508.655,"body":"on the Titanic at this point and like"},{"startTime":508.675,"endTime":510.085,"body":"knowing what's about to happen, right?"},{"startTime":510.235,"endTime":511.835,"body":"Yeah, that's a better analogy."},{"startTime":511.835,"endTime":514.985,"body":"I was thinking, well, you're trying to"},{"startTime":511.835,"endTime":514.985,"body":"change the tires on a car while it's being"},{"startTime":514.985,"endTime":516.745,"body":"driven on the highway at 60 miles an hour."},{"startTime":516.755,"endTime":518.515,"body":"You're trying to change"},{"startTime":516.755,"endTime":518.515,"body":"tires on the Titanic."},{"startTime":518.665,"endTime":519.375,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"startTime":519.525,"endTime":520.625,"body":"While it's still."},{"startTime":520.775,"endTime":521.905,"body":"Halfway in the water."},{"startTime":522.055,"endTime":525.685,"body":"No, it's, it's pandemonium at"},{"startTime":522.055,"endTime":525.685,"body":"that point because people aren't"},{"startTime":525.695,"endTime":528.265,"body":"talking to one another, especially"},{"startTime":525.695,"endTime":528.265,"body":"if you have dedicated teams."},{"startTime":528.265,"endTime":531.345,"body":"So how do you, how do you"},{"startTime":528.265,"endTime":531.345,"body":"survive in that long term?"},{"startTime":531.405,"endTime":534.845,"body":"I just can't wait for the person that's"},{"startTime":531.405,"endTime":534.845,"body":"going to comment on this and be like,"},{"startTime":534.845,"endTime":536.065,"body":"Brian, that scenario is ludicrous."},{"startTime":536.065,"endTime":536.935,"body":"No one would ever do that."},{"startTime":537.115,"endTime":540.225,"body":"Like I only bring that up because I"},{"startTime":537.115,"endTime":540.225,"body":"lived through that exact experience."},{"startTime":540.375,"endTime":541.645,"body":"I like to talk to that person."},{"startTime":541.645,"endTime":542.665,"body":"Cause it happens all the time."},{"startTime":542.795,"endTime":543.465,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":543.485,"endTime":547.685,"body":"We have so much, we have so, it's so"},{"startTime":543.485,"endTime":547.685,"body":"unstable, like quality is so bad that we"},{"startTime":547.685,"endTime":552.025,"body":"have to get another team that their job"},{"startTime":547.685,"endTime":552.025,"body":"is just to do like quality improvements."},{"startTime":552.145,"endTime":556.165,"body":"But basically bug fixes, they'll wrap it"},{"startTime":552.145,"endTime":556.165,"body":"is quality improvement I've seen Not, they"},{"startTime":556.165,"endTime":560.245,"body":"don't have entire teams to do it, but I"},{"startTime":556.165,"endTime":560.245,"body":"have seen them dedicate one developer."},{"startTime":560.246,"endTime":562.115,"body":"Well, that's the on call"},{"startTime":560.246,"endTime":562.115,"body":"developer this week."},{"startTime":562.135,"endTime":565.935,"body":"Their job is just to catch all the"},{"startTime":562.135,"endTime":565.935,"body":"bugs and garbage that blows up So in"},{"startTime":565.935,"endTime":569.575,"body":"the former where we have a separate"},{"startTime":565.935,"endTime":569.575,"body":"team or even a developer, it leads to"},{"startTime":569.575,"endTime":573.915,"body":"this behavior from your development"},{"startTime":569.575,"endTime":573.915,"body":"team that let's just, Scaffold it up."},{"startTime":573.915,"endTime":575.035,"body":"If it breaks, they'll fix it."},{"startTime":575.185,"endTime":575.605,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":575.895,"endTime":576.925,"body":"And that's terrible."},{"startTime":577.135,"endTime":580.435,"body":"Because you're releasing code"},{"startTime":577.135,"endTime":580.435,"body":"that's not of quality to begin with."},{"startTime":580.585,"endTime":582.375,"body":"I'm a big fan of you build it, you run it."},{"startTime":582.525,"endTime":585.245,"body":"Oh, you're not a big fan of"},{"startTime":582.525,"endTime":585.245,"body":"we, we Throw it over the wall?"},{"startTime":585.245,"endTime":586.685,"body":"We'll fix it and document it later?"},{"startTime":586.686,"endTime":589.245,"body":"Because later never comes."},{"startTime":589.395,"endTime":591.715,"body":"Oh man, somehow this needs"},{"startTime":589.395,"endTime":591.715,"body":"to be a separate podcast."},{"startTime":591.765,"endTime":595.185,"body":"I want to let my feature team just develop"},{"startTime":591.765,"endTime":595.185,"body":"features and put all the maintenance"},{"startTime":595.335,"endTime":596.955,"body":"and refactoring off this other team."},{"startTime":597.285,"endTime":599.155,"body":"Like whoever thought that was a good idea."},{"startTime":599.155,"endTime":600.805,"body":"Like it needs its own podcast."},{"startTime":600.865,"endTime":601.915,"body":"I don't know what it would be called."},{"startTime":601.915,"endTime":603.245,"body":"Doing a whole podcast on that."},{"startTime":603.255,"endTime":604.425,"body":"Cause there's so much there."},{"startTime":604.435,"endTime":606.135,"body":"It's not just people that fix your stuff."},{"startTime":606.135,"endTime":609.435,"body":"It's also potentially people"},{"startTime":606.135,"endTime":609.435,"body":"that are putting your code into"},{"startTime":609.435,"endTime":611.135,"body":"production of your team is not right."},{"startTime":611.285,"endTime":614.315,"body":"these teams will go fix"},{"startTime":611.285,"endTime":614.315,"body":"things quickly because well."},{"startTime":614.465,"endTime":617.005,"body":"They're the ones in charge of"},{"startTime":614.465,"endTime":617.005,"body":"putting things into production."},{"startTime":617.005,"endTime":618.265,"body":"And if he breaks, it looks bad on them."},{"startTime":618.265,"endTime":621.075,"body":"So they fix it up, but he never"},{"startTime":618.265,"endTime":621.075,"body":"gets back to the dev team and"},{"startTime":621.075,"endTime":622.465,"body":"doesn't get back to the main branch."},{"startTime":622.615,"endTime":623.465,"body":"And that's the problem."},{"startTime":623.495,"endTime":626.915,"body":"Learnings don't get back, nor does"},{"startTime":623.495,"endTime":626.915,"body":"the skill get back, which leaves"},{"startTime":626.915,"endTime":627.945,"body":"you with a whole nother problem."},{"startTime":628.095,"endTime":628.615,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":628.765,"endTime":633.775,"body":"And so potentially you could have"},{"startTime":628.765,"endTime":633.775,"body":"not a shadow backlog, but multiple"},{"startTime":633.885,"endTime":637.195,"body":"shadow backlog, we're already very,"},{"startTime":633.885,"endTime":637.195,"body":"very, very close to be talking"},{"startTime":637.195,"endTime":638.395,"body":"about technical debt right now."},{"startTime":638.395,"endTime":640.085,"body":"So let's just launch straight into."},{"startTime":640.235,"endTime":642.555,"body":"The technical debt backlog,"},{"startTime":642.695,"endTime":644.895,"body":"at more than one place so I'm not"},{"startTime":642.695,"endTime":644.895,"body":"trying to call anyone out, but more"},{"startTime":644.895,"endTime":648.215,"body":"than one place, the developers some"},{"startTime":644.895,"endTime":648.215,"body":"places the developers will revolt"},{"startTime":648.365,"endTime":650.455,"body":"and say like, we must fix this."},{"startTime":650.455,"endTime":651.445,"body":"We can't wait anymore."},{"startTime":651.595,"endTime":656.035,"body":"Sometimes they'll try to be proactive"},{"startTime":651.595,"endTime":656.035,"body":"overly cautiously proactive to say like,"},{"startTime":656.035,"endTime":659.865,"body":"Oh, we've got to have a, a completely"},{"startTime":656.035,"endTime":659.865,"body":"separate roadmap to, of how we're going"},{"startTime":659.865,"endTime":663.165,"body":"to fix technical debt and improve the"},{"startTime":659.865,"endTime":663.165,"body":"systems and bring them up to date."},{"startTime":663.475,"endTime":665.445,"body":"Whatever SPAC or current"},{"startTime":663.475,"endTime":665.445,"body":"version, whatever it is."},{"startTime":665.445,"endTime":668.925,"body":"So they'll try to have their own"},{"startTime":665.445,"endTime":668.925,"body":"parallel backlog because usually the"},{"startTime":668.925,"endTime":672.065,"body":"people that lead engineering at a high"},{"startTime":668.925,"endTime":672.065,"body":"level in organization, they're pretty"},{"startTime":672.065,"endTime":675.085,"body":"much charged with like, Hey, how can we"},{"startTime":672.065,"endTime":675.085,"body":"have all these systems that are falling"},{"startTime":675.085,"endTime":678.675,"body":"over they get pointed out to say you're"},{"startTime":675.085,"endTime":678.675,"body":"doing a bad job because they're the ones"},{"startTime":678.675,"endTime":680.365,"body":"looking at quality dashboards and things."},{"startTime":680.385,"endTime":684.095,"body":"I mean, in reality, it's a partnership"},{"startTime":680.385,"endTime":684.095,"body":"between engineering and product management"},{"startTime":684.105,"endTime":685.455,"body":"that resolves the technical debt."},{"startTime":685.455,"endTime":689.985,"body":"So it's not, it's kind of not fair just"},{"startTime":685.455,"endTime":689.985,"body":"to point at the engineering leadership"},{"startTime":689.995,"endTime":693.515,"body":"to say you're not doing a good job cause"},{"startTime":689.995,"endTime":693.515,"body":"you could have, you could have product"},{"startTime":693.525,"endTime":696.715,"body":"people that completely don't understand"},{"startTime":693.525,"endTime":696.715,"body":"what it takes to keep the system moving."},{"startTime":696.865,"endTime":699.255,"body":"They're completely disconnected"},{"startTime":696.865,"endTime":699.255,"body":"from what's happening with"},{"startTime":699.255,"endTime":700.375,"body":"the technology under hood."},{"startTime":700.655,"endTime":703.315,"body":"And they just I was gonna say"},{"startTime":700.655,"endTime":703.315,"body":"go to lunch all day, but also"},{"startTime":703.465,"endTime":704.865,"body":"they just asked for features."},{"startTime":705.015,"endTime":707.145,"body":"They don't want to do any"},{"startTime":705.015,"endTime":707.145,"body":"technical under hood stuff."},{"startTime":707.145,"endTime":707.945,"body":"They don't understand it."},{"startTime":707.945,"endTime":708.915,"body":"They don't want to talk about it."},{"startTime":709.065,"endTime":712.355,"body":"I've been in a room with executives"},{"startTime":709.065,"endTime":712.355,"body":"actually that are like this."},{"startTime":712.505,"endTime":713.605,"body":"They only want features."},{"startTime":713.805,"endTime":715.985,"body":"They don't want to talk"},{"startTime":713.805,"endTime":715.985,"body":"about the systems under hood."},{"startTime":716.135,"endTime":717.145,"body":"They don't want to pay for things."},{"startTime":717.145,"endTime":718.585,"body":"They don't want to spend"},{"startTime":717.145,"endTime":718.585,"body":"any development time on it."},{"startTime":718.625,"endTime":721.565,"body":"and honestly, like if you start talking"},{"startTime":718.625,"endTime":721.565,"body":"about anything like this, sometimes"},{"startTime":721.575,"endTime":724.975,"body":"you go into the weeds to talk about"},{"startTime":721.575,"endTime":724.975,"body":"how a feature would be solutioned."},{"startTime":725.105,"endTime":725.315,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":725.655,"endTime":726.795,"body":"Like people do, right?"},{"startTime":727.105,"endTime":727.795,"body":"They'll zone out."},{"startTime":727.795,"endTime":730.875,"body":"Like I had a guy once who would"},{"startTime":727.795,"endTime":730.875,"body":"get up and practice his golf swing."},{"startTime":731.145,"endTime":732.615,"body":"He would do shadow golf swings."},{"startTime":732.675,"endTime":733.635,"body":"in a conference room."},{"startTime":733.785,"endTime":735.225,"body":"When the developers would start talking"},{"startTime":735.235,"endTime":737.175,"body":"I don't know if I'm going to"},{"startTime":735.235,"endTime":737.175,"body":"keep this story in the podcast."},{"startTime":737.375,"endTime":738.035,"body":"It's so good."},{"startTime":738.035,"endTime":739.895,"body":"I can't, I can't stop myself"},{"startTime":738.035,"endTime":739.895,"body":"from telling it though."},{"startTime":739.965,"endTime":741.675,"body":"So he's an executive, right?"},{"startTime":741.705,"endTime":745.315,"body":"They brought him in I think 'cause he had"},{"startTime":741.705,"endTime":745.315,"body":"like deep ties with a particular customer"},{"startTime":745.315,"endTime":747.355,"body":"we were trying to sell anyway, and they're"},{"startTime":745.315,"endTime":747.355,"body":"like, we don't know what to do with you."},{"startTime":747.355,"endTime":748.855,"body":"You're gonna run development department."},{"startTime":748.86,"endTime":750.475,"body":"So he became in charge of"},{"startTime":748.86,"endTime":750.475,"body":"the development department."},{"startTime":750.475,"endTime":751.585,"body":"This C the c-level exec."},{"startTime":751.585,"endTime":752.515,"body":"I don't remember what his title was."},{"startTime":752.845,"endTime":756.955,"body":"Anyway, this guy comes in, he could"},{"startTime":752.845,"endTime":756.955,"body":"not care about technology at all."},{"startTime":756.955,"endTime":758.785,"body":"He, when we would, he"},{"startTime":756.955,"endTime":758.785,"body":"would practice his golf."},{"startTime":758.845,"endTime":759.115,"body":"I see."},{"startTime":759.355,"endTime":760.285,"body":"I still remember him."},{"startTime":760.535,"endTime":761.925,"body":"Practicing his golf swing."},{"startTime":763.095,"endTime":764.605,"body":"I still remember him practicing."},{"startTime":764.655,"endTime":766.595,"body":"Well that just tells you"},{"startTime":764.655,"endTime":766.595,"body":"what the company thought."},{"startTime":766.615,"endTime":767.165,"body":"Yeah of course."},{"startTime":767.315,"endTime":770.295,"body":"But I still remember him practicing"},{"startTime":767.315,"endTime":770.295,"body":"his golf swing while we were talking"},{"startTime":770.295,"endTime":774.815,"body":"about something highly technical"},{"startTime":770.295,"endTime":774.815,"body":"that needed to be solved before we"},{"startTime":774.815,"endTime":777.945,"body":"could launch some feature or scale"},{"startTime":774.815,"endTime":777.945,"body":"the system or do something basically."},{"startTime":778.095,"endTime":781.035,"body":"And He could care less"},{"startTime":778.095,"endTime":781.035,"body":"playing golf in a corner."},{"startTime":781.365,"endTime":782.865,"body":"He didn't last surprisingly."},{"startTime":782.875,"endTime":786.725,"body":"I remember talking to somebody years"},{"startTime":782.875,"endTime":786.725,"body":"later after that guy had left who"},{"startTime":786.725,"endTime":789.055,"body":"was like a senior developer who"},{"startTime":786.725,"endTime":789.055,"body":"worked their way up in that company."},{"startTime":789.205,"endTime":790.735,"body":"And I was like, man, that guy."},{"startTime":790.935,"endTime":792.235,"body":"What a piece of work that guy."},{"startTime":792.235,"endTime":794.495,"body":"And then I remember the person"},{"startTime":792.235,"endTime":794.495,"body":"who is developer was like,"},{"startTime":794.525,"endTime":795.595,"body":"actually, it wasn't that bad."},{"startTime":795.745,"endTime":797.515,"body":"I'm like, what are you talking about?"},{"startTime":797.815,"endTime":800.105,"body":"What were you on a"},{"startTime":797.815,"endTime":800.105,"body":"different planet than I am?"},{"startTime":800.255,"endTime":801.395,"body":"Actually, it wasn't that bad."},{"startTime":801.545,"endTime":805.185,"body":"I think wasn't that bad means I"},{"startTime":801.545,"endTime":805.185,"body":"can do whatever technical debt I"},{"startTime":805.185,"endTime":807.935,"body":"want and he'll, he won't challenge"},{"startTime":805.185,"endTime":807.935,"body":"it because he has no idea."},{"startTime":808.035,"endTime":809.385,"body":"I think that's what it meant."},{"startTime":809.385,"endTime":812.535,"body":"He would either ignore what I'm"},{"startTime":809.385,"endTime":812.535,"body":"doing and implicitly just approve"},{"startTime":812.535,"endTime":814.065,"body":"it or he'll rubber stamp it."},{"startTime":814.065,"endTime":815.535,"body":"He'll just say, yeah, that's fine."},{"startTime":815.685,"endTime":816.375,"body":"It sounds good."},{"startTime":816.405,"endTime":819.075,"body":"I think that's what he meant by he"},{"startTime":816.405,"endTime":819.075,"body":"wasn't that bad is that he didn't"},{"startTime":819.225,"endTime":822.005,"body":"get into details or challenge you"},{"startTime":819.225,"endTime":822.005,"body":"about details because he couldn't."},{"startTime":822.065,"endTime":822.565,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":822.665,"endTime":824.975,"body":"But again, that guy had no"},{"startTime":822.665,"endTime":824.975,"body":"business in business at all."},{"startTime":825.145,"endTime":827.965,"body":"That's that was my opinion on"},{"startTime":825.145,"endTime":827.965,"body":"him and I still feel that way."},{"startTime":828.655,"endTime":829.945,"body":"He's probably out there winning the U."},{"startTime":829.945,"endTime":830.085,"body":"S."},{"startTime":830.085,"endTime":830.735,"body":"Open right now."},{"startTime":830.785,"endTime":833.135,"body":"we may or may not be returning"},{"startTime":830.785,"endTime":833.135,"body":"from a Segway right now."},{"startTime":833.285,"endTime":834.485,"body":"About golf."},{"startTime":834.635,"endTime":838.785,"body":"But yeah, the refactoring in order"},{"startTime":834.635,"endTime":838.785,"body":"to solve technical debt, everyone can"},{"startTime":838.785,"endTime":841.535,"body":"pretty much understand, like developers,"},{"startTime":838.785,"endTime":841.535,"body":"like they, they see it happen."},{"startTime":841.545,"endTime":844.565,"body":"They, if you're, you're not going to give"},{"startTime":841.545,"endTime":844.565,"body":"them the space to do it and it's painful"},{"startTime":844.565,"endTime":847.485,"body":"enough, they're just going to go do it"},{"startTime":844.565,"endTime":847.485,"body":"themselves, completely understand that."},{"startTime":847.565,"endTime":848.215,"body":"No problem."},{"startTime":848.365,"endTime":851.045,"body":"But the optimum is the underhood"},{"startTime":848.365,"endTime":851.045,"body":"optimization that you could"},{"startTime":851.045,"endTime":852.715,"body":"basically spend forever on."},{"startTime":852.865,"endTime":855.785,"body":"Like that, that is the other place"},{"startTime":852.865,"endTime":855.785,"body":"that I've seen this goodness."},{"startTime":855.785,"endTime":855.975,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":856.185,"endTime":858.135,"body":"So tuning, right."},{"startTime":858.185,"endTime":861.705,"body":"Tuning and then forever"},{"startTime":858.185,"endTime":861.705,"body":"refining and polishing."},{"startTime":861.715,"endTime":861.995,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":862.235,"endTime":862.605,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":862.635,"endTime":863.485,"body":"Gilding the lily."},{"startTime":863.515,"endTime":863.725,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":863.975,"endTime":865.465,"body":"So yeah, definitely have seen that."},{"startTime":865.615,"endTime":868.135,"body":"Especially, so there's two"},{"startTime":865.615,"endTime":868.135,"body":"sides to this though, right?"},{"startTime":868.185,"endTime":871.815,"body":"I have seen some developers that are"},{"startTime":868.185,"endTime":871.815,"body":"so passionate about their work that"},{"startTime":871.815,"endTime":873.175,"body":"they just want to keep improving."},{"startTime":873.495,"endTime":874.245,"body":"It can be better."},{"startTime":874.345,"endTime":876.295,"body":"I can make it 2 percent faster."},{"startTime":876.445,"endTime":877.795,"body":"I can optimize the queries."},{"startTime":877.945,"endTime":879.745,"body":"Nobody really is complaining about it."},{"startTime":879.895,"endTime":880.255,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":880.595,"endTime":881.525,"body":"But they're into it."},{"startTime":881.795,"endTime":882.655,"body":"There's that side of it."},{"startTime":882.705,"endTime":885.645,"body":"The other side of it is Save that one,"},{"startTime":882.705,"endTime":885.645,"body":"because that one, when we talk about"},{"startTime":885.645,"endTime":887.305,"body":"personal tasks, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":887.585,"endTime":888.685,"body":"That's definitely in that category."},{"startTime":888.735,"endTime":891.225,"body":"Is you guys are not taking"},{"startTime":888.735,"endTime":891.225,"body":"this feature seriously enough."},{"startTime":891.375,"endTime":893.505,"body":"I'm going to go show you"},{"startTime":891.375,"endTime":893.505,"body":"how good it could be."},{"startTime":893.505,"endTime":896.375,"body":"I've seen people spend nights"},{"startTime":893.505,"endTime":896.375,"body":"and weekends doing that for sure."},{"startTime":896.375,"endTime":897.565,"body":"You're not going to get"},{"startTime":896.375,"endTime":897.565,"body":"time in the backlog."},{"startTime":897.575,"endTime":898.495,"body":"We've talked about it."},{"startTime":898.625,"endTime":901.375,"body":"That ship has sailed and they go do"},{"startTime":898.625,"endTime":901.375,"body":"an anyway on nights and weekends."},{"startTime":901.375,"endTime":902.515,"body":"And now they're burning themselves out."},{"startTime":902.665,"endTime":903.705,"body":"Is burning them out."},{"startTime":903.705,"endTime":903.975,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":904.005,"endTime":906.635,"body":"But I've seen people do it during"},{"startTime":904.005,"endTime":906.635,"body":"their work days and they're not"},{"startTime":906.965,"endTime":908.235,"body":"doing the committed features."},{"startTime":908.285,"endTime":908.645,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":908.965,"endTime":910.475,"body":"So there's two sides to it."},{"startTime":910.685,"endTime":911.905,"body":"Just briefly go back to."},{"startTime":912.06,"endTime":917.56,"body":"This idea of having the break fixes"},{"startTime":912.06,"endTime":917.56,"body":"under like one leader manager and"},{"startTime":917.71,"endTime":921.34,"body":"net new features functionality under"},{"startTime":917.71,"endTime":921.34,"body":"different one, maybe product, right?"},{"startTime":921.49,"endTime":924.25,"body":"Of course, they're going to"},{"startTime":921.49,"endTime":924.25,"body":"protect their turf, they're not"},{"startTime":924.25,"endTime":925.33,"body":"going to talk to one another."},{"startTime":925.48,"endTime":927.8,"body":"The person who has all these fixes to do."},{"startTime":927.95,"endTime":930.91,"body":"They're not going to go back to the"},{"startTime":927.95,"endTime":930.91,"body":"product and say, can we just fix it?"},{"startTime":930.91,"endTime":932.84,"body":"So that our processes and so forth."},{"startTime":933.09,"endTime":936.16,"body":"So we don't have as much to fix"},{"startTime":933.09,"endTime":936.16,"body":"because well, they're employed."},{"startTime":936.31,"endTime":938.68,"body":"So it's their vested interest"},{"startTime":936.31,"endTime":938.68,"body":"that they're protecting."},{"startTime":938.68,"endTime":941.68,"body":"I think it goes back to that"},{"startTime":938.68,"endTime":941.68,"body":"whole org design thing again."},{"startTime":941.78,"endTime":942.02,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":942.03,"endTime":944.73,"body":"You know, how you organized"},{"startTime":942.03,"endTime":944.73,"body":"in your company, right?"},{"startTime":944.98,"endTime":947.24,"body":"I like the, there's so"},{"startTime":944.98,"endTime":947.24,"body":"much to talk about here."},{"startTime":947.28,"endTime":949.07,"body":"I want to have a whole"},{"startTime":947.28,"endTime":949.07,"body":"podcast on technical debt."},{"startTime":949.1,"endTime":951.21,"body":"there's so much here that"},{"startTime":949.1,"endTime":951.21,"body":"I want to talk about."},{"startTime":951.21,"endTime":953.945,"body":"we have yet to even talk about the."},{"startTime":954.095,"endTime":957.845,"body":"Maintenance of legacy systems and,"},{"startTime":954.095,"endTime":957.845,"body":"estimates on legacy systems when the"},{"startTime":957.845,"endTime":960.395,"body":"people giving the estimates are not the"},{"startTime":957.845,"endTime":960.395,"body":"people that built the legacy system,"},{"startTime":960.695,"endTime":964.145,"body":"you bring on people to maintain a legacy"},{"startTime":960.695,"endTime":964.145,"body":"system where you have new developers"},{"startTime":964.145,"endTime":965.245,"body":"and the old developers are gone."},{"startTime":965.245,"endTime":966.945,"body":"Like your estimates are all garbage."},{"startTime":967.095,"endTime":970.065,"body":"You know, it always takes a long"},{"startTime":967.095,"endTime":970.065,"body":"time to do something and you resist"},{"startTime":970.085,"endTime":972.335,"body":"doing stuff to that other system or."},{"startTime":972.655,"endTime":976.685,"body":"Migrating it or touching it or spending"},{"startTime":972.655,"endTime":976.685,"body":"any time that involves the the cost"},{"startTime":976.685,"endTime":978.175,"body":"quality that you hadn't noted before."},{"startTime":978.175,"endTime":981.345,"body":"Like there's so many things I want to talk"},{"startTime":978.175,"endTime":981.345,"body":"about in this, in this tech debt category."},{"startTime":981.495,"endTime":985.155,"body":"I think on that legacy one,"},{"startTime":981.495,"endTime":985.155,"body":"oftentimes because legacy, I"},{"startTime":985.165,"endTime":986.395,"body":"mean, it's old technology, right?"},{"startTime":986.445,"endTime":990.625,"body":"And people that are well versed with the"},{"startTime":986.445,"endTime":990.625,"body":"latest technologies have this Dunning"},{"startTime":990.625,"endTime":992.035,"body":"Kruger effect that they're thinking."},{"startTime":992.185,"endTime":992.975,"body":"I can do that."},{"startTime":993.125,"endTime":994.655,"body":"I mean, that's not, that's old tech."},{"startTime":994.745,"endTime":995.605,"body":"I can do that."},{"startTime":995.655,"endTime":995.935,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":996.015,"endTime":996.265,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":996.305,"endTime":1001.105,"body":"I can read COBOL if I have four hours to"},{"startTime":996.305,"endTime":1001.105,"body":"read the code, it's not that hard, but"},{"startTime":1001.105,"endTime":1004.435,"body":"that's where they're wrong because they"},{"startTime":1001.105,"endTime":1004.435,"body":"don't have documentation or worse yet."},{"startTime":1004.445,"endTime":1006.095,"body":"They don't have the domain knowledge."},{"startTime":1006.095,"endTime":1009.735,"body":"To fix things in whatever the"},{"startTime":1006.095,"endTime":1009.735,"body":"old, the old languages were."},{"startTime":1009.765,"endTime":1010.485,"body":"It's not old tech."},{"startTime":1010.495,"endTime":1011.395,"body":"It's lost tech."},{"startTime":1011.395,"endTime":1012.215,"body":"It's lost tech."},{"startTime":1012.275,"endTime":1013.165,"body":"The long lost tech."},{"startTime":1013.385,"endTime":1014.535,"body":"What program am I thinking of?"},{"startTime":1014.535,"endTime":1017.675,"body":"the technology is so advanced"},{"startTime":1014.535,"endTime":1017.675,"body":"that the human beings forgot."},{"startTime":1017.905,"endTime":1021.405,"body":"I don't know if it's like Wally or"},{"startTime":1017.905,"endTime":1021.405,"body":"one of the, basically the P the people"},{"startTime":1021.405,"endTime":1022.885,"body":"are living, is it twilight zone?"},{"startTime":1022.905,"endTime":1025.145,"body":"I don't remember what it was like"},{"startTime":1022.905,"endTime":1025.145,"body":"the people are living on the ship,"},{"startTime":1025.155,"endTime":1027.715,"body":"but the people that are living"},{"startTime":1025.155,"endTime":1027.715,"body":"on the ship are like far removed"},{"startTime":1027.865,"endTime":1030.675,"body":"descendants from the people that built"},{"startTime":1027.865,"endTime":1030.675,"body":"the ship and they lost the ability."},{"startTime":1030.825,"endTime":1033.965,"body":"To work on the ship and you"},{"startTime":1030.825,"endTime":1033.965,"body":"know, that's real that is real"},{"startTime":1034.185,"endTime":1035.065,"body":"when you're working on legacy."},{"startTime":1035.215,"endTime":1035.775,"body":"That's this."},{"startTime":1035.775,"endTime":1038.765,"body":"Yeah, that's exactly this So their"},{"startTime":1035.775,"endTime":1038.765,"body":"estimates though coming back to that"},{"startTime":1038.765,"endTime":1041.175,"body":"right their estimates are very ambitious."},{"startTime":1041.515,"endTime":1044.905,"body":"I could fix that in a day Yeah,"},{"startTime":1041.515,"endTime":1044.905,"body":"and 15 days later, they're still"},{"startTime":1044.905,"endTime":1048.045,"body":"into it, right not their fault"},{"startTime":1044.905,"endTime":1048.045,"body":"necessarily, but that's reality."},{"startTime":1048.095,"endTime":1051.405,"body":"It happens all the time Yeah, yeah"},{"startTime":1048.095,"endTime":1051.405,"body":"going down a rabbit hole, trying"},{"startTime":1051.405,"endTime":1054.625,"body":"to figure out That like that"},{"startTime":1051.405,"endTime":1054.625,"body":"exploratory work as like I work with"},{"startTime":1054.635,"endTime":1056.425,"body":"many, many developers who do that."},{"startTime":1056.455,"endTime":1057.995,"body":"and you know what to be honest, I do that."},{"startTime":1058.095,"endTime":1060.355,"body":"I spent two hours on"},{"startTime":1058.095,"endTime":1060.355,"body":"something that wasn't working."},{"startTime":1060.505,"endTime":1064.375,"body":"Normally, I won't spend that much time"},{"startTime":1060.505,"endTime":1064.375,"body":"on two hours is an immense amount of"},{"startTime":1064.375,"endTime":1069.925,"body":"time for me in one Pomodoro like one"},{"startTime":1064.375,"endTime":1069.925,"body":"go for me, like two hours back to back"},{"startTime":1069.925,"endTime":1074.365,"body":"straight uninterrupted sitting at my"},{"startTime":1069.925,"endTime":1074.365,"body":"computer, like two hours is amazing"},{"startTime":1074.365,"endTime":1077.955,"body":"that I can pound out a bunch of stuff"},{"startTime":1074.365,"endTime":1077.955,"body":"that's super helpful to me in two hours."},{"startTime":1078.105,"endTime":1081.595,"body":"But I had this two hours I spent"},{"startTime":1078.105,"endTime":1081.595,"body":"trying to figure out why an API"},{"startTime":1081.605,"endTime":1083.495,"body":"response wasn't coming back properly."},{"startTime":1083.645,"endTime":1084.395,"body":"Total waste of time."},{"startTime":1084.545,"endTime":1087.435,"body":"And even when I'm doing it, I know I'm"},{"startTime":1084.545,"endTime":1087.435,"body":"spending way more time, but it's like"},{"startTime":1087.485,"endTime":1089.425,"body":"the next, the next hit is going to work."},{"startTime":1089.575,"endTime":1090.655,"body":"The next hit is going to work."},{"startTime":1090.885,"endTime":1093.435,"body":"You know, the next thing is"},{"startTime":1090.885,"endTime":1093.435,"body":"the gambler syndrome, right?"},{"startTime":1093.455,"endTime":1096.845,"body":"You're really is the next spin"},{"startTime":1093.455,"endTime":1096.845,"body":"is going to land the ball exactly"},{"startTime":1096.845,"endTime":1098.005,"body":"on the number I'm gambling on."},{"startTime":1098.045,"endTime":1099.065,"body":"It really is."},{"startTime":1099.095,"endTime":1102.395,"body":"But the idea that you need to keep this"},{"startTime":1099.095,"endTime":1102.395,"body":"stuff in a separate roadmap and lobby"},{"startTime":1102.405,"endTime":1106.615,"body":"and do whatever and have a big bang or,"},{"startTime":1102.405,"endTime":1106.615,"body":"Oh, we have to have a big project to do"},{"startTime":1106.615,"endTime":1109.475,"body":"this stuff or introduce a new database"},{"startTime":1106.615,"endTime":1109.475,"body":"or cut over to a database or whatever."},{"startTime":1109.625,"endTime":1113.545,"body":"No, if you can't do it as a normal"},{"startTime":1109.625,"endTime":1113.545,"body":"part of your normal stream work, it's"},{"startTime":1113.545,"endTime":1115.205,"body":"highly likely that you can't do it."},{"startTime":1115.355,"endTime":1115.665,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1115.815,"endTime":1117.905,"body":"Technical debt is why I think it"},{"startTime":1115.815,"endTime":1117.905,"body":"should be a different podcast."},{"startTime":1118.055,"endTime":1118.665,"body":"We will do one."},{"startTime":1118.675,"endTime":1123.025,"body":"It worries me as a product manager"},{"startTime":1118.675,"endTime":1123.025,"body":"who used to be on development teams."},{"startTime":1123.175,"endTime":1126.775,"body":"It worries me because is a product"},{"startTime":1123.175,"endTime":1126.775,"body":"manager who's empowered with"},{"startTime":1126.845,"endTime":1128.705,"body":"prioritization, like that's their role."},{"startTime":1128.855,"endTime":1130.085,"body":"Do they really understand?"},{"startTime":1130.235,"endTime":1134.865,"body":"what being versions behind or what being"},{"startTime":1130.235,"endTime":1134.865,"body":"on this old technology or what being on"},{"startTime":1134.895,"endTime":1139.295,"body":"several versions behind on the technology"},{"startTime":1134.895,"endTime":1139.295,"body":"or not migrating to the latest technology"},{"startTime":1139.295,"endTime":1143.555,"body":"that's purposely built for this or being"},{"startTime":1139.295,"endTime":1143.555,"body":"on this old version of the language, do"},{"startTime":1143.555,"endTime":1144.805,"body":"they really understand what that means?"},{"startTime":1144.955,"endTime":1149.435,"body":"And do they re and can they illustrate"},{"startTime":1144.955,"endTime":1149.435,"body":"in front of management when management"},{"startTime":1149.715,"endTime":1154.015,"body":"is playing golf, that golf swing guy who"},{"startTime":1149.715,"endTime":1154.015,"body":"doesn't know anything about technology,"},{"startTime":1154.275,"endTime":1156.285,"body":"couldn't care less running a tech company."},{"startTime":1156.61,"endTime":1158.99,"body":"Couldn't care less about"},{"startTime":1156.61,"endTime":1158.99,"body":"technology when they're dealing"},{"startTime":1158.99,"endTime":1160.84,"body":"with that flippant attitude."},{"startTime":1160.99,"endTime":1162.5,"body":"Can they make it matter?"},{"startTime":1162.67,"endTime":1165.73,"body":"The product manager, can they take"},{"startTime":1162.67,"endTime":1165.73,"body":"all the concerns of the dev team"},{"startTime":1165.88,"endTime":1168.99,"body":"and understanding of technology"},{"startTime":1165.88,"endTime":1168.99,"body":"and make it matter to that person?"},{"startTime":1168.99,"endTime":1171.06,"body":"Can they weave that story and"},{"startTime":1168.99,"endTime":1171.06,"body":"make it matter to that person?"},{"startTime":1171.21,"endTime":1174.72,"body":"I'm super worried when I, again,"},{"startTime":1171.21,"endTime":1174.72,"body":"like most of the product managers,"},{"startTime":1174.93,"endTime":1178.45,"body":"the advice that you'll see online is"},{"startTime":1174.93,"endTime":1178.45,"body":"partner with your engineering lead."},{"startTime":1178.795,"endTime":1180.175,"body":"Have them help you do it."},{"startTime":1180.215,"endTime":1183.805,"body":"Believe your dreams, get lunch all"},{"startTime":1180.215,"endTime":1183.805,"body":"day, beefcake, that's not good enough."},{"startTime":1184.125,"endTime":1186.935,"body":"Listen, you're describing a"},{"startTime":1184.125,"endTime":1186.935,"body":"unicorn of a product manager"},{"startTime":1186.935,"endTime":1188.425,"body":"who can actually do that, right?"},{"startTime":1188.455,"endTime":1191.075,"body":"I found, I mean, there are very"},{"startTime":1188.455,"endTime":1191.075,"body":"few that are technical enough"},{"startTime":1191.075,"endTime":1192.845,"body":"to understand these things."},{"startTime":1192.885,"endTime":1193.215,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1193.365,"endTime":1196.585,"body":"So yeah, we were talking before"},{"startTime":1193.365,"endTime":1196.585,"body":"the podcast about teams wanting to."},{"startTime":1196.735,"endTime":1199.445,"body":"Upgrade To a new library"},{"startTime":1196.735,"endTime":1199.445,"body":"or something like that."},{"startTime":1199.595,"endTime":1202.735,"body":"The product people aren't necessarily"},{"startTime":1199.595,"endTime":1202.735,"body":"aware of the reasons why that"},{"startTime":1202.735,"endTime":1203.645,"body":"should be done or not done."},{"startTime":1203.645,"endTime":1205.325,"body":"Visualization libraries is"},{"startTime":1203.645,"endTime":1205.325,"body":"what we're talking about."},{"startTime":1205.375,"endTime":1207.235,"body":"But it could be, it could"},{"startTime":1205.375,"endTime":1207.235,"body":"be anything though, right?"},{"startTime":1207.525,"endTime":1210.475,"body":"visualization libraries are a really good"},{"startTime":1207.525,"endTime":1210.475,"body":"example because they're in your face."},{"startTime":1210.515,"endTime":1211.175,"body":"six months."},{"startTime":1211.175,"endTime":1211.725,"body":"They're outdated."},{"startTime":1211.765,"endTime":1213.245,"body":"They move so fast."},{"startTime":1213.355,"endTime":1213.725,"body":"exactly."},{"startTime":1213.725,"endTime":1215.255,"body":"So I think it's a tall order."},{"startTime":1215.395,"endTime":1217.425,"body":"How do you partner with"},{"startTime":1215.395,"endTime":1217.425,"body":"the engineering lead?"},{"startTime":1217.425,"endTime":1219.765,"body":"If they the type of people"},{"startTime":1217.425,"endTime":1219.765,"body":"that you're describing, right?"},{"startTime":1219.775,"endTime":1220.425,"body":"It's hard."},{"startTime":1220.665,"endTime":1221.125,"body":"It is hard."},{"startTime":1221.125,"endTime":1223.995,"body":"the only other thing about technical"},{"startTime":1221.125,"endTime":1223.995,"body":"debt, kind of, that's wrapped up in the"},{"startTime":1223.995,"endTime":1229.665,"body":"legacy systems and technical debt to bring"},{"startTime":1223.995,"endTime":1229.665,"body":"up here is, and it's only tangentially"},{"startTime":1229.725,"endTime":1234.095,"body":"part of the shadow backlog is sometimes"},{"startTime":1229.725,"endTime":1234.095,"body":"you will run into these hero developers."},{"startTime":1234.095,"endTime":1239.295,"body":"these wolf developers who have found"},{"startTime":1234.095,"endTime":1239.295,"body":"themselves Outside of a team Also the"},{"startTime":1239.295,"endTime":1243.935,"body":"other moniker that is relevant to these"},{"startTime":1239.295,"endTime":1243.935,"body":"people is the Paris Hilton developer."},{"startTime":1244.08,"endTime":1245.05,"body":"Let, I haven't heard that one."},{"startTime":1245.085,"endTime":1246.315,"body":"Let explain, let me explain."},{"startTime":1246.465,"endTime":1249.645,"body":"I'm glad, I'm glad I can be the first"},{"startTime":1246.465,"endTime":1249.645,"body":"one to lay this on you in this podcast."},{"startTime":1249.645,"endTime":1250.065,"body":"Yeah, I haven't heard that."},{"startTime":1250.065,"endTime":1251.92,"body":"you know the Wolf"},{"startTime":1250.065,"endTime":1251.92,"body":"developer, you know that?"},{"startTime":1251.925,"endTime":1251.926,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1251.985,"endTime":1252.765,"body":"They work alone."},{"startTime":1252.77,"endTime":1254.265,"body":"They're only working on the latest fire."},{"startTime":1254.265,"endTime":1255.165,"body":"They're seen as a hero."},{"startTime":1255.195,"endTime":1256.365,"body":"'cause they go from fire to fire."},{"startTime":1256.365,"endTime":1258.255,"body":"they're the people that can do, do things."},{"startTime":1258.305,"endTime":1259.965,"body":"The Paris Hilton developer is like that."},{"startTime":1260.035,"endTime":1262.185,"body":"they're famous for being famous."},{"startTime":1262.335,"endTime":1266.725,"body":"They're at all the parties, they're at"},{"startTime":1262.335,"endTime":1266.725,"body":"all the release events, they're at all"},{"startTime":1266.725,"endTime":1269.645,"body":"the launches, you gotta get them in"},{"startTime":1266.725,"endTime":1269.645,"body":"the room to have them in the room, but"},{"startTime":1269.975,"endTime":1273.075,"body":"they're not really part of any team,"},{"startTime":1269.975,"endTime":1273.075,"body":"they don't work on anything significant"},{"startTime":1273.075,"endTime":1276.105,"body":"that you can remember, they just"},{"startTime":1273.075,"endTime":1276.105,"body":"happen to be there whenever significant"},{"startTime":1276.105,"endTime":1278.695,"body":"things happen, they're a developer"},{"startTime":1276.105,"endTime":1278.695,"body":"that's really good at being there."},{"startTime":1278.845,"endTime":1280.605,"body":"When significant things are happening."},{"startTime":1280.905,"endTime":1284.385,"body":"So it's interesting because I"},{"startTime":1280.905,"endTime":1284.385,"body":"actually have come across this."},{"startTime":1284.575,"endTime":1285.635,"body":"This should be a podcast."},{"startTime":1285.785,"endTime":1288.285,"body":"Our podcast should have been"},{"startTime":1285.785,"endTime":1288.285,"body":"the Paris Hilton developer."},{"startTime":1288.285,"endTime":1289.355,"body":"That's a good title."},{"startTime":1289.665,"endTime":1292.245,"body":"I've come across architects"},{"startTime":1289.665,"endTime":1292.245,"body":"that fall in this category."},{"startTime":1292.555,"endTime":1293.385,"body":"They go around."},{"startTime":1293.425,"endTime":1295.945,"body":"I don't know if architects can"},{"startTime":1293.425,"endTime":1295.945,"body":"exist in any other category."},{"startTime":1296.095,"endTime":1296.525,"body":"Fair point."},{"startTime":1296.525,"endTime":1298.265,"body":"They go around with their"},{"startTime":1296.525,"endTime":1298.265,"body":"little dog in their purse."},{"startTime":1298.295,"endTime":1300.365,"body":"Yeah, they go around"},{"startTime":1298.295,"endTime":1300.365,"body":"looking all important."},{"startTime":1300.415,"endTime":1302.765,"body":"You know, they go ask the"},{"startTime":1300.415,"endTime":1302.765,"body":"teams that they're working on."},{"startTime":1302.825,"endTime":1303.915,"body":"Offer their two cents."},{"startTime":1303.955,"endTime":1305.865,"body":"No, don't pick up the glass that way."},{"startTime":1305.865,"endTime":1306.795,"body":"Pick it up this way."},{"startTime":1306.945,"endTime":1309.265,"body":"Not that it matters, but"},{"startTime":1306.945,"endTime":1309.265,"body":"you know, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1309.265,"endTime":1310.975,"body":"Pick it up and then that's it."},{"startTime":1310.975,"endTime":1311.935,"body":"They just hover around."},{"startTime":1312.22,"endTime":1314.13,"body":"They butterfly in and they butterfly out."},{"startTime":1314.39,"endTime":1316.18,"body":"So yeah, I've come across those guys."},{"startTime":1316.19,"endTime":1317.04,"body":"Oh, I know."},{"startTime":1317.05,"endTime":1319.54,"body":"Like when I, when you say it"},{"startTime":1317.05,"endTime":1319.54,"body":"out loud, you're like, actually."},{"startTime":1319.69,"endTime":1321.3,"body":"I do know a few of those people."},{"startTime":1321.45,"endTime":1323.64,"body":"But you know what they do"},{"startTime":1321.45,"endTime":1323.64,"body":"is they're really good at"},{"startTime":1323.65,"endTime":1324.84,"body":"sticking around for a long time."},{"startTime":1324.94,"endTime":1329.03,"body":"staying in the media, What things is"},{"startTime":1324.94,"endTime":1329.03,"body":"Paris Hilton good at staying in the,"},{"startTime":1329.03,"endTime":1334.3,"body":"staying in the public eye, staying"},{"startTime":1329.03,"endTime":1334.3,"body":"in the public eye, being seen."},{"startTime":1334.36,"endTime":1338.0,"body":"Right, but also knowing where"},{"startTime":1334.36,"endTime":1338.0,"body":"to be at a certain time."},{"startTime":1338.15,"endTime":1341.27,"body":"You can't do that unless you're"},{"startTime":1338.15,"endTime":1341.27,"body":"hoarding all that knowledge that"},{"startTime":1341.28,"endTime":1342.51,"body":"someone might eventually need."},{"startTime":1342.51,"endTime":1343.25,"body":"Great point, yes."},{"startTime":1343.4,"endTime":1348.02,"body":"so again, the Paris Hilton developer"},{"startTime":1343.4,"endTime":1348.02,"body":"is what I, my example of someone who's"},{"startTime":1348.03,"endTime":1351.81,"body":"hoarding knowledge for their own benefit,"},{"startTime":1348.03,"endTime":1351.81,"body":"not necessarily for anyone else's benefit."},{"startTime":1351.95,"endTime":1357.46,"body":"the quiet, Developer that kind of just"},{"startTime":1351.95,"endTime":1357.46,"body":"goes from team to team and mentors the"},{"startTime":1357.46,"endTime":1360.54,"body":"new people, walks them through the code,"},{"startTime":1357.46,"endTime":1360.54,"body":"does code reviews for other people."},{"startTime":1360.54,"endTime":1362.93,"body":"Like those people don't get any"},{"startTime":1360.54,"endTime":1362.93,"body":"of the glitz and the cameras that"},{"startTime":1362.96,"endTime":1364.21,"body":"the Paris Hilton developer gets."},{"startTime":1364.25,"endTime":1366.28,"body":"they don't get to rescue"},{"startTime":1364.25,"endTime":1366.28,"body":"the situation, right?"},{"startTime":1366.48,"endTime":1368.98,"body":"This person does by hoarding knowledge."},{"startTime":1368.99,"endTime":1372.34,"body":"They do rescue the situation, but"},{"startTime":1368.99,"endTime":1372.34,"body":"when they do it, they attribute"},{"startTime":1372.34,"endTime":1374.61,"body":"it to the team and they don't"},{"startTime":1372.34,"endTime":1374.61,"body":"take it personally on their own."},{"startTime":1374.76,"endTime":1375.52,"body":"Actual team player."},{"startTime":1375.72,"endTime":1378.98,"body":"But Paris Hilton is looking to be"},{"startTime":1375.72,"endTime":1378.98,"body":"in front of the camera Exactly."},{"startTime":1379.31,"endTime":1379.46,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1379.46,"endTime":1381.69,"body":"Don't be a Paris Hilton developer"},{"startTime":1379.46,"endTime":1381.69,"body":"is what we're saying right now."},{"startTime":1381.71,"endTime":1382.36,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1382.37,"endTime":1384.0,"body":"Just carry your lapdog in your purse."},{"startTime":1384.03,"endTime":1385.54,"body":"Not, not all that knowledge."},{"startTime":1385.69,"endTime":1389.55,"body":"Well, This is going to be a hard one"},{"startTime":1385.69,"endTime":1389.55,"body":"to segue from, but I'm going to try."},{"startTime":1389.81,"endTime":1392.8,"body":"We said we would save personal"},{"startTime":1389.81,"endTime":1392.8,"body":"tasks until it's own category."},{"startTime":1392.8,"endTime":1394.74,"body":"Do you remember why we said"},{"startTime":1392.8,"endTime":1394.74,"body":"we would save personal tasks?"},{"startTime":1394.74,"endTime":1396.49,"body":"Oh, no, it was, I had a solution."},{"startTime":1396.64,"endTime":1398.37,"body":"And then we chose not to"},{"startTime":1396.64,"endTime":1398.37,"body":"implement that solution."},{"startTime":1398.37,"endTime":1400.18,"body":"So I'm going to do it"},{"startTime":1398.37,"endTime":1400.18,"body":"on nights and weekends."},{"startTime":1400.28,"endTime":1400.63,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1400.63,"endTime":1404.57,"body":"Yeah, that was, so those kinds of"},{"startTime":1400.63,"endTime":1404.57,"body":"personal tasks where the product"},{"startTime":1404.61,"endTime":1406.42,"body":"manager says, I'm not going to do this."},{"startTime":1406.76,"endTime":1408.02,"body":"I don't want to spend time on it."},{"startTime":1408.03,"endTime":1411.95,"body":"Like it's outside of the sprint goal"},{"startTime":1408.03,"endTime":1411.95,"body":"and it's outside of any of our goals"},{"startTime":1411.95,"endTime":1413.48,"body":"for the quarter or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":1413.53,"endTime":1415.44,"body":"And like, it doesn't line up"},{"startTime":1413.53,"endTime":1415.44,"body":"with any of our goals, so I don't"},{"startTime":1415.44,"endTime":1416.56,"body":"want to spend any time on it."},{"startTime":1416.78,"endTime":1417.68,"body":"And developer says."},{"startTime":1418.0,"endTime":1419.13,"body":"Well, I think it's important."},{"startTime":1419.2,"endTime":1420.27,"body":"I'm going to do it anyway."},{"startTime":1420.3,"endTime":1423.73,"body":"I'm going to do it on nights a week I'm"},{"startTime":1420.3,"endTime":1423.73,"body":"going to show you that people like listen."},{"startTime":1423.73,"endTime":1427.74,"body":"I'm conflicted on this one and I'll"},{"startTime":1423.73,"endTime":1427.74,"body":"tell you why because I do this."},{"startTime":1427.89,"endTime":1429.08,"body":"That's my confession."},{"startTime":1429.22,"endTime":1433.78,"body":"I do this I don't do as I do I do"},{"startTime":1429.22,"endTime":1433.78,"body":"nights and weekends development To"},{"startTime":1433.78,"endTime":1438.71,"body":"say, I'm going to go figure out how"},{"startTime":1433.78,"endTime":1438.71,"body":"to query this database to go get the"},{"startTime":1438.71,"endTime":1441.24,"body":"exact right data to use in this thing."},{"startTime":1441.24,"endTime":1443.94,"body":"And then tell the development"},{"startTime":1441.24,"endTime":1443.94,"body":"team Hey, I can get this query."},{"startTime":1443.94,"endTime":1445.79,"body":"This is not exactly what we're"},{"startTime":1443.94,"endTime":1445.79,"body":"talking about, what I'm doing."},{"startTime":1445.94,"endTime":1451.25,"body":"Is implementing like a feature or, or"},{"startTime":1445.94,"endTime":1451.25,"body":"basically anything else like a, an NFR,"},{"startTime":1451.56,"endTime":1455.02,"body":"a technical debt thing, something that"},{"startTime":1451.56,"endTime":1455.02,"body":"I think that we're falling behind on."},{"startTime":1455.02,"endTime":1456.41,"body":"So I'm going to go do it."},{"startTime":1456.56,"endTime":1461.39,"body":"Like I, again, I, I have where I do"},{"startTime":1456.56,"endTime":1461.39,"body":"things like this is I'll say, Hey, we"},{"startTime":1461.39,"endTime":1465.35,"body":"don't have a, we don't have a program"},{"startTime":1461.39,"endTime":1465.35,"body":"to query something from this database."},{"startTime":1465.5,"endTime":1468.3,"body":"And query something from this database"},{"startTime":1465.5,"endTime":1468.3,"body":"and then put those two things together"},{"startTime":1468.3,"endTime":1472.76,"body":"and send out a report and so that we"},{"startTime":1468.3,"endTime":1472.76,"body":"can make this other decision and I"},{"startTime":1472.76,"endTime":1474.27,"body":"could ask my development team to do it."},{"startTime":1474.32,"endTime":1478.51,"body":"It is development work, but it doesn't"},{"startTime":1474.32,"endTime":1478.51,"body":"line up with any of our quarterly goals."},{"startTime":1478.85,"endTime":1480.71,"body":"It really doesn't take"},{"startTime":1478.85,"endTime":1480.71,"body":"that long to get the data."},{"startTime":1480.86,"endTime":1484.63,"body":"The only pain is it's a manual one time"},{"startTime":1480.86,"endTime":1484.63,"body":"thing when I want to go get the data"},{"startTime":1484.88,"endTime":1487.79,"body":"So it takes me 30 minutes or whatever"},{"startTime":1484.88,"endTime":1487.79,"body":"But if I can spend an hour and a half"},{"startTime":1487.81,"endTime":1491.43,"body":"in the middle of the night and automate"},{"startTime":1487.81,"endTime":1491.43,"body":"the process Number one I can make life"},{"startTime":1491.43,"endTime":1494.18,"body":"easier on everybody that's looking"},{"startTime":1491.43,"endTime":1494.18,"body":"for that data Number two, I don't have"},{"startTime":1494.18,"endTime":1495.23,"body":"to ask the development team to do it."},{"startTime":1495.23,"endTime":1495.65,"body":"Number three."},{"startTime":1495.65,"endTime":1500.115,"body":"I don't have to lobby To make it a"},{"startTime":1495.65,"endTime":1500.115,"body":"quarterly goal to do internal automation,"},{"startTime":1500.425,"endTime":1503.835,"body":"to make whatever X, Y, Z, easier,"},{"startTime":1500.425,"endTime":1503.835,"body":"whatever process I'm trying to do."},{"startTime":1503.895,"endTime":1504.175,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1504.175,"endTime":1507.385,"body":"So like I do this all the time,"},{"startTime":1504.175,"endTime":1507.385,"body":"so it's tough for me to talk about"},{"startTime":1507.385,"endTime":1508.915,"body":"this one because I certainly do."},{"startTime":1509.115,"endTime":1512.015,"body":"if you're doing it, this doesn't"},{"startTime":1509.115,"endTime":1512.015,"body":"matter if you're doing it or developers"},{"startTime":1512.045,"endTime":1514.205,"body":"doing it, there's an opportunity"},{"startTime":1512.045,"endTime":1514.205,"body":"cause you're doing something."},{"startTime":1514.555,"endTime":1517.565,"body":"If you're doing it out in your"},{"startTime":1514.555,"endTime":1517.565,"body":"own time, evenings and weekends,"},{"startTime":1517.565,"endTime":1518.935,"body":"you're still burning yourself out."},{"startTime":1518.985,"endTime":1519.975,"body":"A hundred percent agree."},{"startTime":1520.195,"endTime":1523.665,"body":"So I mean, I'm a little conflicted"},{"startTime":1520.195,"endTime":1523.665,"body":"on it for a different reason."},{"startTime":1523.675,"endTime":1528.065,"body":"Are we really constraining the innovation"},{"startTime":1523.675,"endTime":1528.065,"body":"that people can bring to the table by"},{"startTime":1528.215,"endTime":1530.295,"body":"not allowing this to happen, right?"},{"startTime":1530.595,"endTime":1535.005,"body":"So maybe, Maybe one thing to"},{"startTime":1530.595,"endTime":1535.005,"body":"consider is reserve a bit of time"},{"startTime":1535.095,"endTime":1537.815,"body":"every so often and have a hackathon."},{"startTime":1537.825,"endTime":1540.475,"body":"Let, let teams come up with"},{"startTime":1537.825,"endTime":1540.475,"body":"basically what Google does, right?"},{"startTime":1540.775,"endTime":1543.455,"body":"Let the teams come up with"},{"startTime":1540.775,"endTime":1543.455,"body":"some innovation in that way."},{"startTime":1543.765,"endTime":1545.905,"body":"So that's their channel at the same time."},{"startTime":1545.905,"endTime":1548.465,"body":"You can protect the main backlog"},{"startTime":1545.905,"endTime":1548.465,"body":"and make sure that people aren't"},{"startTime":1548.615,"endTime":1550.79,"body":"distributed across seeing an unseen work."},{"startTime":1550.79,"endTime":1551.555,"body":"If you will."},{"startTime":1551.615,"endTime":1553.225,"body":"I wonder, I don't see this going away."},{"startTime":1553.375,"endTime":1554.075,"body":"This is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1554.225,"endTime":1555.785,"body":"As long as people are"},{"startTime":1554.225,"endTime":1555.785,"body":"there, they won't go."},{"startTime":1555.785,"endTime":1555.995,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1556.025,"endTime":1556.655,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1556.655,"endTime":1559.955,"body":"I don't see this going away,"},{"startTime":1556.655,"endTime":1559.955,"body":"but I wonder 20 years from now."},{"startTime":1560.105,"endTime":1565.345,"body":"If the broad view of product development"},{"startTime":1560.105,"endTime":1565.345,"body":"I wonder what the number of loading"},{"startTime":1565.345,"endTime":1568.105,"body":"your developers down per week would be."},{"startTime":1568.415,"endTime":1569.735,"body":"So like what you just said."},{"startTime":1569.745,"endTime":1572.415,"body":"it sparked an idea in my head,"},{"startTime":1569.745,"endTime":1572.415,"body":"which is like, maybe I don't"},{"startTime":1572.415,"endTime":1573.485,"body":"want to load my developers."},{"startTime":1573.485,"endTime":1576.545,"body":"Like in America, 40 hour workweek,"},{"startTime":1573.485,"endTime":1576.545,"body":"like that's the standard."},{"startTime":1576.605,"endTime":1578.885,"body":"some people will say 45, they're"},{"startTime":1576.605,"endTime":1578.885,"body":"trying to squeeze a little"},{"startTime":1578.885,"endTime":1579.825,"body":"more out of you, whatever."},{"startTime":1579.825,"endTime":1579.89,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1580.04,"endTime":1583.74,"body":"I want to think like, what if"},{"startTime":1580.04,"endTime":1583.74,"body":"the work week in the future is"},{"startTime":1583.74,"endTime":1587.9,"body":"like 25 hours and we're reserving"},{"startTime":1583.74,"endTime":1587.9,"body":"another 10 hours ish, right?"},{"startTime":1588.05,"endTime":1590.78,"body":"Cause some of those hours that are"},{"startTime":1588.05,"endTime":1590.78,"body":"spent at work are spent on purely"},{"startTime":1590.79,"endTime":1594.02,"body":"administrative stuff that's not, it"},{"startTime":1590.79,"endTime":1594.02,"body":"doesn't advance your work at all."},{"startTime":1594.05,"endTime":1595.44,"body":"So there are some hours to do that."},{"startTime":1595.44,"endTime":1598.46,"body":"Let's say we're only going to load"},{"startTime":1595.44,"endTime":1598.46,"body":"developers down to 25 hours a week, and"},{"startTime":1598.46,"endTime":1600.61,"body":"then we're reserving that other 10 hours."},{"startTime":1600.76,"endTime":1602.01,"body":"Whatever, eight hours, six hours."},{"startTime":1602.01,"endTime":1605.67,"body":"We can negotiate on a number, but we're"},{"startTime":1602.01,"endTime":1605.67,"body":"reserving a number of hours per week"},{"startTime":1605.72,"endTime":1610.27,"body":"on just things that the developer sees"},{"startTime":1605.72,"endTime":1610.27,"body":"that need to be corrected, that they"},{"startTime":1610.27,"endTime":1614.12,"body":"can just jump on because again, they're"},{"startTime":1610.27,"endTime":1614.12,"body":"the people closest to the problems."},{"startTime":1614.4,"endTime":1618.3,"body":"So it does make sense to reserve some"},{"startTime":1614.4,"endTime":1618.3,"body":"of their time for this category, this"},{"startTime":1618.31,"endTime":1621.72,"body":"personal task category to reserve"},{"startTime":1618.31,"endTime":1621.72,"body":"some of their time to counter what"},{"startTime":1621.72,"endTime":1626.12,"body":"I'm saying, which is I do this, I"},{"startTime":1621.72,"endTime":1626.12,"body":"can't expect my developers to not"},{"startTime":1626.12,"endTime":1627.64,"body":"do this because if I'm doing it."},{"startTime":1627.955,"endTime":1629.055,"body":"And I'm leading the team."},{"startTime":1629.405,"endTime":1632.725,"body":"I'm basically setting the example"},{"startTime":1629.405,"endTime":1632.725,"body":"that people are going to see, and"},{"startTime":1632.725,"endTime":1633.665,"body":"they're going to follow my example."},{"startTime":1633.975,"endTime":1637.255,"body":"So I guess what I'm saying is I"},{"startTime":1633.975,"endTime":1637.255,"body":"am leading and propagating this."},{"startTime":1637.505,"endTime":1639.795,"body":"So can I alter the system?"},{"startTime":1639.945,"endTime":1641.235,"body":"Cause I can't alter my behavior."},{"startTime":1641.565,"endTime":1642.615,"body":"My behavior is set in stone."},{"startTime":1642.665,"endTime":1645.235,"body":"Like the real, that's the"},{"startTime":1642.665,"endTime":1645.235,"body":"real fix here is Brian."},{"startTime":1645.245,"endTime":1645.775,"body":"Don't do that."},{"startTime":1645.805,"endTime":1647.195,"body":"Or if you do it, just shut up."},{"startTime":1647.305,"endTime":1648.975,"body":"Like don't, don't tell anybody."},{"startTime":1649.115,"endTime":1650.215,"body":"I almost cursed the bucket."},{"startTime":1650.505,"endTime":1653.965,"body":"Don't tell anybody that you do it because"},{"startTime":1650.505,"endTime":1653.965,"body":"then other people see you doing it."},{"startTime":1654.295,"endTime":1657.485,"body":"You know, this is the same thing as like,"},{"startTime":1654.295,"endTime":1657.485,"body":"if, if, if I work for a boss who never"},{"startTime":1657.485,"endTime":1659.625,"body":"takes vacation, now I can't take vacation."},{"startTime":1659.775,"endTime":1661.395,"body":"That's the same thing that"},{"startTime":1659.775,"endTime":1661.395,"body":"we're talking about here."},{"startTime":1661.455,"endTime":1662.345,"body":"It's the same effect."},{"startTime":1662.495,"endTime":1665.475,"body":"But the personal test one, if you know"},{"startTime":1662.495,"endTime":1665.475,"body":"that you have this problem, if you"},{"startTime":1665.475,"endTime":1668.645,"body":"have a problem, where's Mike Miller"},{"startTime":1665.475,"endTime":1668.645,"body":"when I need him this personal testing,"},{"startTime":1668.645,"endTime":1671.785,"body":"like maybe you can reserve some"},{"startTime":1668.645,"endTime":1671.785,"body":"capacity, just like you would reserve"},{"startTime":1671.795,"endTime":1673.275,"body":"capacity to deal with technical debt."},{"startTime":1673.475,"endTime":1673.795,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1673.795,"endTime":1675.185,"body":"We're going to reserve 20 percent of our."},{"startTime":1675.335,"endTime":1678.545,"body":"points in the sprint or whatever"},{"startTime":1675.335,"endTime":1678.545,"body":"to know that technical debt stuff's"},{"startTime":1678.545,"endTime":1681.125,"body":"going to need to be worked on,"},{"startTime":1678.545,"endTime":1681.125,"body":"let engineering choose what that's"},{"startTime":1681.125,"endTime":1682.445,"body":"going to be, and we'll drop it in."},{"startTime":1682.445,"endTime":1685.165,"body":"If we don't have something up in the"},{"startTime":1682.445,"endTime":1685.165,"body":"roadmap, maybe this is the same thing"},{"startTime":1685.165,"endTime":1686.465,"body":"we were going to reserve some time."},{"startTime":1686.615,"endTime":1689.305,"body":"if you don't need to do any of this"},{"startTime":1686.615,"endTime":1689.305,"body":"stuff, then you just work on normal"},{"startTime":1689.305,"endTime":1691.005,"body":"backlog items and everything's fine."},{"startTime":1691.075,"endTime":1694.475,"body":"I like the idea of reserving time"},{"startTime":1691.075,"endTime":1694.475,"body":"because one of the other things you can"},{"startTime":1694.495,"endTime":1696.505,"body":"add in that mix is skills development."},{"startTime":1696.515,"endTime":1699.185,"body":"So reserve whatever hours"},{"startTime":1696.515,"endTime":1699.185,"body":"you mentioned, right?"},{"startTime":1699.235,"endTime":1700.305,"body":"It doesn't matter what the hours are."},{"startTime":1700.315,"endTime":1700.645,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1700.665,"endTime":1701.605,"body":"You figure out the number."},{"startTime":1701.605,"endTime":1704.115,"body":"for personal tasks as well"},{"startTime":1701.605,"endTime":1704.115,"body":"as skills development, right?"},{"startTime":1704.135,"endTime":1705.715,"body":"Obscure yourself, learn something new."},{"startTime":1705.775,"endTime":1706.275,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":1706.275,"endTime":1706.455,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1706.605,"endTime":1709.605,"body":"I like that too, but it doesn't"},{"startTime":1706.605,"endTime":1709.605,"body":"because really there's no"},{"startTime":1709.605,"endTime":1711.125,"body":"room for that in day to day."},{"startTime":1711.285,"endTime":1714.025,"body":"You think about what teams work"},{"startTime":1711.285,"endTime":1714.025,"body":"on, they're always working on"},{"startTime":1714.065,"endTime":1718.565,"body":"either the actual backlog or some"},{"startTime":1714.065,"endTime":1718.565,"body":"other version of it, which is what"},{"startTime":1718.565,"endTime":1719.585,"body":"we're calling the shadow backlog."},{"startTime":1719.595,"endTime":1721.255,"body":"We probably could think about this"},{"startTime":1719.595,"endTime":1721.255,"body":"number off the top of our head."},{"startTime":1721.255,"endTime":1723.555,"body":"Like every additional team"},{"startTime":1721.255,"endTime":1723.555,"body":"that you're on, you add 20%."},{"startTime":1723.585,"endTime":1725.755,"body":"So, right away, you cut your utilization."},{"startTime":1725.905,"endTime":1728.295,"body":"if we're going to talk about the"},{"startTime":1725.905,"endTime":1728.295,"body":"dirty four letter word that's"},{"startTime":1728.595,"endTime":1730.875,"body":"called utilization, we're going"},{"startTime":1728.595,"endTime":1730.875,"body":"to talk about that for a second."},{"startTime":1731.025,"endTime":1734.705,"body":"let's break out like, okay, you're"},{"startTime":1731.025,"endTime":1734.705,"body":"a developer on one team what is"},{"startTime":1734.705,"endTime":1736.765,"body":"your utilization to that team?"},{"startTime":1736.805,"endTime":1737.665,"body":"Just off the start."},{"startTime":1737.665,"endTime":1740.475,"body":"Are we just going to say like 15"},{"startTime":1737.665,"endTime":1740.475,"body":"percent of your time is just pure"},{"startTime":1740.475,"endTime":1743.465,"body":"overhead, like just on one team"},{"startTime":1740.475,"endTime":1743.465,"body":"meetings and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1743.535,"endTime":1744.635,"body":"let's call one team 20%."},{"startTime":1744.785,"endTime":1747.645,"body":"Being on one team, 20 percent"},{"startTime":1744.785,"endTime":1747.645,"body":"of your time is already gone."},{"startTime":1747.925,"endTime":1752.205,"body":"So, that's 80 percent potentially"},{"startTime":1747.925,"endTime":1752.205,"body":"dedicated to development work that you do."},{"startTime":1752.235,"endTime":1755.505,"body":"Now, let's say, we're gonna do this"},{"startTime":1752.235,"endTime":1755.505,"body":"personal task slash learning thing."},{"startTime":1755.735,"endTime":1758.425,"body":"So, let's take 30 percent of your"},{"startTime":1755.735,"endTime":1758.425,"body":"time and dedicate it to these things."},{"startTime":1758.435,"endTime":1760.815,"body":"So, either personal tasks you have"},{"startTime":1758.435,"endTime":1760.815,"body":"to do or learning and development."},{"startTime":1761.015,"endTime":1762.055,"body":"So, now we're down to 50%."},{"startTime":1763.085,"endTime":1765.325,"body":"Of your time dedicated to"},{"startTime":1763.085,"endTime":1765.325,"body":"actually servicing the backlog."},{"startTime":1765.325,"endTime":1766.975,"body":"So now we're at 20"},{"startTime":1765.325,"endTime":1766.975,"body":"hours a week, basically."},{"startTime":1767.125,"endTime":1768.015,"body":"I think that's fair."},{"startTime":1768.065,"endTime":1769.355,"body":"We're going to take care of your L and D."},{"startTime":1769.515,"endTime":1771.145,"body":"We're going to take care of your"},{"startTime":1769.515,"endTime":1771.145,"body":"time to work on the stuff that"},{"startTime":1771.145,"endTime":1772.315,"body":"you're super passionate about."},{"startTime":1772.485,"endTime":1775.525,"body":"We're going to take care of the"},{"startTime":1772.485,"endTime":1775.525,"body":"time to work on things that you"},{"startTime":1775.525,"endTime":1779.285,"body":"would like to, to workshop and prove"},{"startTime":1775.525,"endTime":1779.285,"body":"concept that the hackathon type of"},{"startTime":1779.285,"endTime":1780.635,"body":"stuff, building into your schedule."},{"startTime":1780.81,"endTime":1781.72,"body":"I love this idea."},{"startTime":1781.72,"endTime":1784.68,"body":"You're basically exposing the"},{"startTime":1781.72,"endTime":1784.68,"body":"skunkworks at that point, right?"},{"startTime":1784.68,"endTime":1787.11,"body":"You say, well, don't hide"},{"startTime":1784.68,"endTime":1787.11,"body":"things under the table."},{"startTime":1787.12,"endTime":1790.2,"body":"We're giving you the time"},{"startTime":1787.12,"endTime":1790.2,"body":"and you can make it fun."},{"startTime":1790.21,"endTime":1791.79,"body":"You could make it rewarding for them."},{"startTime":1791.94,"endTime":1794.4,"body":"You know, if they come up, we said"},{"startTime":1791.94,"endTime":1794.4,"body":"that's basically the google thing."},{"startTime":1794.66,"endTime":1797.75,"body":"Google have been doing this for a"},{"startTime":1794.66,"endTime":1797.75,"body":"while, you know that on fridays the"},{"startTime":1797.75,"endTime":1799.61,"body":"developers do this sort of thing, right?"},{"startTime":1799.76,"endTime":1800.87,"body":"But I like the idea."},{"startTime":1800.92,"endTime":1804.29,"body":"Well, the point of all this"},{"startTime":1800.92,"endTime":1804.29,"body":"is I want it all Transparent."},{"startTime":1804.38,"endTime":1805.38,"body":"I want it all clear."},{"startTime":1805.5,"endTime":1809.1,"body":"So like maybe I'll carve some time out in"},{"startTime":1805.5,"endTime":1809.1,"body":"our sprint review for you to bring this"},{"startTime":1809.1,"endTime":1812.46,"body":"work forward that you're working on and if"},{"startTime":1809.1,"endTime":1812.46,"body":"the sprint review is not the appropriate"},{"startTime":1812.46,"endTime":1815.01,"body":"place because maybe the audience is not"},{"startTime":1812.46,"endTime":1815.01,"body":"the appropriate place, then maybe the"},{"startTime":1815.01,"endTime":1819.87,"body":"engineering team itself has like the"},{"startTime":1815.01,"endTime":1819.87,"body":"hackathon review, like maybe every month"},{"startTime":1819.87,"endTime":1821.34,"body":"or every two weeks or something like that."},{"startTime":1821.35,"endTime":1824.87,"body":"Maybe the engineering team just the"},{"startTime":1821.35,"endTime":1824.87,"body":"engineers in the matrix of engineering."},{"startTime":1824.93,"endTime":1828.36,"body":"Maybe just the engineers go"},{"startTime":1824.93,"endTime":1828.36,"body":"to a across team engineering."},{"startTime":1828.51,"endTime":1831.93,"body":"Session where they share what they've"},{"startTime":1828.51,"endTime":1831.93,"body":"been doing for this type of stuff."},{"startTime":1832.11,"endTime":1834.93,"body":"I would keep it separate from the"},{"startTime":1832.11,"endTime":1834.93,"body":"sprint review because you possibly"},{"startTime":1834.93,"endTime":1835.93,"body":"have stakeholders in the room."},{"startTime":1835.93,"endTime":1837.13,"body":"Well, it depends on how"},{"startTime":1835.93,"endTime":1837.13,"body":"big your company is."},{"startTime":1837.17,"endTime":1837.93,"body":"But yeah, sure."},{"startTime":1837.99,"endTime":1839.18,"body":"If you're small enough."},{"startTime":1839.18,"endTime":1840.27,"body":"I mean, obviously if you have."},{"startTime":1840.565,"endTime":1843.095,"body":"60 plus developers in your"},{"startTime":1840.565,"endTime":1843.095,"body":"program okay, like that."},{"startTime":1843.245,"endTime":1846.185,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I would agree with you"},{"startTime":1843.245,"endTime":1846.185,"body":"yeah, let's do that separately."},{"startTime":1846.245,"endTime":1850.645,"body":"I, as a product manager Will become the"},{"startTime":1846.245,"endTime":1850.645,"body":"person who goes to that optionally like"},{"startTime":1850.645,"endTime":1854.305,"body":"I'm on the optional invite to see what"},{"startTime":1850.645,"endTime":1854.305,"body":"cool new things It's for them by them."},{"startTime":1854.305,"endTime":1857.875,"body":"So yeah, it makes sense But they're"},{"startTime":1854.305,"endTime":1857.875,"body":"also As part of personal tasks, that's"},{"startTime":1857.875,"endTime":1862.495,"body":"their time to pitch things So sort"},{"startTime":1857.875,"endTime":1862.495,"body":"of like it could be Part demo part"},{"startTime":1862.495,"endTime":1864.525,"body":"pitch meeting at that point anyway,"},{"startTime":1864.555,"endTime":1865.535,"body":"I think so too."},{"startTime":1865.555,"endTime":1865.835,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1865.835,"endTime":1866.515,"body":"I think this is good."},{"startTime":1866.635,"endTime":1869.565,"body":"maybe I can try exploring some"},{"startTime":1866.635,"endTime":1869.565,"body":"of that to the extent possible."},{"startTime":1869.715,"endTime":1869.925,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1869.945,"endTime":1872.645,"body":"Even if it's theoretical now,"},{"startTime":1869.945,"endTime":1872.645,"body":"just treat that as an experiment."},{"startTime":1872.655,"endTime":1873.115,"body":"Try it out."},{"startTime":1873.175,"endTime":1873.925,"body":"in personal tasks."},{"startTime":1873.925,"endTime":1876.625,"body":"We kind of talked about"},{"startTime":1873.925,"endTime":1876.625,"body":"developers trying out new things."},{"startTime":1876.905,"endTime":1881.735,"body":"Talking about personal tasks is developers"},{"startTime":1876.905,"endTime":1881.735,"body":"researching new technologies, or we talked"},{"startTime":1881.735,"endTime":1885.185,"body":"a little bit about new libraries for"},{"startTime":1881.735,"endTime":1885.185,"body":"charting and stuff like that, like new"},{"startTime":1885.185,"endTime":1886.495,"body":"ways of querying, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1886.495,"endTime":1890.235,"body":"New technologies, that exploratory"},{"startTime":1886.495,"endTime":1890.235,"body":"work of like, Oh you know, we know that"},{"startTime":1890.245,"endTime":1891.785,"body":"this thing is upcoming in the backlog."},{"startTime":1891.785,"endTime":1892.965,"body":"They're going to ask us to implement."},{"startTime":1893.245,"endTime":1896.145,"body":"And in advance of that, we have"},{"startTime":1893.245,"endTime":1896.145,"body":"to try some different ways."},{"startTime":1896.44,"endTime":1899.46,"body":"developers can go down a rabbit"},{"startTime":1896.44,"endTime":1899.46,"body":"hole on that exploratory work proof"},{"startTime":1899.46,"endTime":1902.95,"body":"of concept work like real, like"},{"startTime":1899.46,"endTime":1902.95,"body":"things that are not directly in our"},{"startTime":1902.95,"endTime":1906.12,"body":"product now, but maybe in the future,"},{"startTime":1902.95,"endTime":1906.12,"body":"again, people listen to the podcast."},{"startTime":1906.15,"endTime":1909.38,"body":"know, I have a label in my ALM system."},{"startTime":1909.69,"endTime":1911.58,"body":"You can put a label on"},{"startTime":1909.69,"endTime":1911.58,"body":"whatever system you're using."},{"startTime":1911.77,"endTime":1915.2,"body":"I use Jira, but it could be"},{"startTime":1911.77,"endTime":1915.2,"body":"any system that you're using."},{"startTime":1915.26,"endTime":1918.34,"body":"I put a label in there for"},{"startTime":1915.26,"endTime":1918.34,"body":"capabilities, which means my"},{"startTime":1918.34,"endTime":1920.32,"body":"team is doing exploratory work."},{"startTime":1920.5,"endTime":1921.72,"body":"this is not feature development."},{"startTime":1921.72,"endTime":1923.45,"body":"This is not CapEx development."},{"startTime":1923.45,"endTime":1924.8,"body":"This is OpEx."},{"startTime":1924.95,"endTime":1926.42,"body":"The team is exploring something new."},{"startTime":1926.47,"endTime":1927.75,"body":"It may turn into nothing."},{"startTime":1928.01,"endTime":1930.56,"body":"It may turn into capitalizable features."},{"startTime":1930.71,"endTime":1931.43,"body":"I don't know yet."},{"startTime":1931.65,"endTime":1934.65,"body":"I have a tag for that because I"},{"startTime":1931.65,"endTime":1934.65,"body":"want my developers coming to me"},{"startTime":1934.65,"endTime":1936.15,"body":"and saying, we need to do this."},{"startTime":1936.475,"endTime":1938.445,"body":"And put some time into"},{"startTime":1936.475,"endTime":1938.445,"body":"it and lobby for it."},{"startTime":1938.485,"endTime":1941.645,"body":"And then I'll put it in the backlog"},{"startTime":1938.485,"endTime":1941.645,"body":"and we'll order it and it'll pop up."},{"startTime":1941.795,"endTime":1946.305,"body":"But not a lot of product managers can"},{"startTime":1941.795,"endTime":1946.305,"body":"have that discussion and understand"},{"startTime":1946.305,"endTime":1948.145,"body":"the need and understand the pitch."},{"startTime":1948.375,"endTime":1951.335,"body":"And again, like you said, be able"},{"startTime":1948.375,"endTime":1951.335,"body":"to pitch it back to the business"},{"startTime":1951.545,"endTime":1952.955,"body":"because they're paying for it."},{"startTime":1952.955,"endTime":1959.875,"body":"So the reason why exploratory work goes"},{"startTime":1952.955,"endTime":1959.875,"body":"under the radar is because Any break"},{"startTime":1959.895,"endTime":1964.005,"body":"in anything I just explained your, your"},{"startTime":1959.895,"endTime":1964.005,"body":"ability of developer to explain to me,"},{"startTime":1964.005,"endTime":1967.465,"body":"the product manager, me, the product"},{"startTime":1964.005,"endTime":1967.465,"body":"manager's ability to prioritize it in"},{"startTime":1967.465,"endTime":1969.955,"body":"line with the rest of the stuff that we"},{"startTime":1967.465,"endTime":1969.955,"body":"have me, the product manager's ability"},{"startTime":1969.955,"endTime":1973.975,"body":"to sell it to the people above me, like"},{"startTime":1969.955,"endTime":1973.975,"body":"any, any breakdown in any of those things."},{"startTime":1974.125,"endTime":1976.265,"body":"I mean, assuming you didn't"},{"startTime":1974.125,"endTime":1976.265,"body":"have a product manager, right."},{"startTime":1976.415,"endTime":1976.845,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1976.995,"endTime":1977.305,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1977.455,"endTime":1980.735,"body":"So yeah, you're right that developers"},{"startTime":1977.455,"endTime":1980.735,"body":"have a tendency to go down the rabbit"},{"startTime":1980.735,"endTime":1982.425,"body":"hole, especially tool selection."},{"startTime":1982.435,"endTime":1983.565,"body":"Let's use that as an example."},{"startTime":1983.565,"endTime":1984.245,"body":"That's a good example."},{"startTime":1984.245,"endTime":1985.595,"body":"New tools coming up, right?"},{"startTime":1985.685,"endTime":1990.285,"body":"Well, let's try this new fine, shiny"},{"startTime":1985.685,"endTime":1990.285,"body":"tool because that's the latest thing"},{"startTime":1990.285,"endTime":1991.555,"body":"and I hear other people are using it."},{"startTime":1991.705,"endTime":1993.825,"body":"Maybe there's some value"},{"startTime":1991.705,"endTime":1993.825,"body":"in that if they try it out."},{"startTime":1994.035,"endTime":1996.575,"body":"So put my guard rails around"},{"startTime":1994.035,"endTime":1996.575,"body":"it if you want, but put it"},{"startTime":1996.585,"endTime":1998.205,"body":"in the main backlog, right?"},{"startTime":1998.355,"endTime":2000.845,"body":"And yeah, you got to be able to"},{"startTime":1998.355,"endTime":2000.845,"body":"stand up and say, we're doing"},{"startTime":2000.845,"endTime":2002.895,"body":"this because you can't do that."},{"startTime":2003.045,"endTime":2003.965,"body":"That's, that's the guard."},{"startTime":2003.975,"endTime":2006.565,"body":"The guardrails are, it's in the backlog."},{"startTime":2006.815,"endTime":2007.735,"body":"It's been prioritized."},{"startTime":2007.775,"endTime":2008.515,"body":"We're working on it."},{"startTime":2008.515,"endTime":2010.885,"body":"And then every day you're"},{"startTime":2008.515,"endTime":2010.885,"body":"working on it, you're."},{"startTime":2011.035,"endTime":2014.095,"body":"Kind of giving your feedback"},{"startTime":2011.035,"endTime":2014.095,"body":"about Hey, this is what we found."},{"startTime":2014.435,"endTime":2017.485,"body":"Maybe not every day that we're working on,"},{"startTime":2014.435,"endTime":2017.485,"body":"but I mean, every couple of the regularly,"},{"startTime":2017.485,"endTime":2021.085,"body":"yeah, regularly in the background, what"},{"startTime":2017.485,"endTime":2021.085,"body":"I find is like a developer wants to be"},{"startTime":2021.085,"endTime":2024.755,"body":"left alone with a new tool to just spend"},{"startTime":2021.085,"endTime":2024.755,"body":"like, again, me in the middle of the"},{"startTime":2024.755,"endTime":2026.585,"body":"night spending two consecutive hours."},{"startTime":2026.735,"endTime":2028.335,"body":"Working on this API."},{"startTime":2028.335,"endTime":2034.355,"body":"I mean, how long, like two hours"},{"startTime":2028.335,"endTime":2034.355,"body":"again, for me at my level of"},{"startTime":2034.355,"endTime":2037.765,"body":"where I'm at is extreme amount"},{"startTime":2034.355,"endTime":2037.765,"body":"of time to spend on one task."},{"startTime":2037.915,"endTime":2039.525,"body":"I don't know about"},{"startTime":2037.915,"endTime":2039.525,"body":"different people's levels."},{"startTime":2039.525,"endTime":2042.775,"body":"Two weeks might not be"},{"startTime":2039.525,"endTime":2042.775,"body":"extreme for somebody else."},{"startTime":2042.775,"endTime":2046.445,"body":"I don't know what that time is,"},{"startTime":2042.775,"endTime":2046.445,"body":"but if I'm doing scrum and I'm in"},{"startTime":2046.445,"endTime":2048.225,"body":"sprints and you've spent two weeks."},{"startTime":2048.375,"endTime":2052.595,"body":"Exploring something, man, you"},{"startTime":2048.375,"endTime":2052.595,"body":"better be a top to bottom expert."},{"startTime":2052.605,"endTime":2057.445,"body":"Wiz have several proof of concepts"},{"startTime":2052.605,"endTime":2057.445,"body":"like coded and working like the, my"},{"startTime":2057.445,"endTime":2061.445,"body":"problem with this exploratory work, not"},{"startTime":2057.445,"endTime":2061.445,"body":"being in the backlog is the developers."},{"startTime":2061.595,"endTime":2065.105,"body":"Desire to just be left alone with a"},{"startTime":2061.595,"endTime":2065.105,"body":"piece of tech for an extended period"},{"startTime":2065.105,"endTime":2067.105,"body":"of time to really learn it inside out."},{"startTime":2067.255,"endTime":2068.705,"body":"And that is where we get into trouble."},{"startTime":2068.705,"endTime":2072.265,"body":"It's I can't have like, I, as a product"},{"startTime":2068.705,"endTime":2072.265,"body":"manager, I cannot have you disappearing"},{"startTime":2072.265,"endTime":2075.395,"body":"down a rabbit hole for the whole"},{"startTime":2072.265,"endTime":2075.395,"body":"sprint unless that expectation has"},{"startTime":2075.395,"endTime":2077.315,"body":"been set when we pulled the item up,"},{"startTime":2077.375,"endTime":2078.595,"body":"So I agree, first of all, right."},{"startTime":2078.595,"endTime":2081.665,"body":"If you let it go, this is your"},{"startTime":2078.595,"endTime":2081.665,"body":"analogy of water applies here again,"},{"startTime":2081.915,"endTime":2083.105,"body":"because people are just going to keep."},{"startTime":2083.21,"endTime":2084.6,"body":"Playing with the new shiny tool."},{"startTime":2084.75,"endTime":2088.56,"body":"The other thing I've seen that"},{"startTime":2084.75,"endTime":2088.56,"body":"kind of really odd is I've seen"},{"startTime":2088.56,"endTime":2092.41,"body":"developers take leads, let's say,"},{"startTime":2088.56,"endTime":2092.41,"body":"or even architects say, We need to"},{"startTime":2092.41,"endTime":2095.21,"body":"do an exploration or a spike sprint."},{"startTime":2095.36,"endTime":2096.77,"body":"We need to do a spike sprint."},{"startTime":2096.93,"endTime":2099.18,"body":"How am I going to sell that to leadership?"},{"startTime":2099.42,"endTime":2102.28,"body":"A whole sprint, 10 days,"},{"startTime":2099.42,"endTime":2102.28,"body":"let's say, times six people."},{"startTime":2102.31,"endTime":2105.2,"body":"Well, we're going to do all"},{"startTime":2102.31,"endTime":2105.2,"body":"of that just for exploration."},{"startTime":2105.35,"endTime":2108.44,"body":"Maybe we need to think through this"},{"startTime":2105.35,"endTime":2108.44,"body":"and say, what's our opportunity cost?"},{"startTime":2108.49,"endTime":2109.73,"body":"What are we not working on?"},{"startTime":2109.98,"endTime":2112.37,"body":"That's really bringing"},{"startTime":2109.98,"endTime":2112.37,"body":"value to the business."},{"startTime":2112.69,"endTime":2114.26,"body":"So again, it's not black and white."},{"startTime":2114.32,"endTime":2116.19,"body":"Not saying no, just saying, well."},{"startTime":2116.34,"endTime":2120.06,"body":"You know what gives right and"},{"startTime":2116.34,"endTime":2120.06,"body":"having that discussion with those"},{"startTime":2120.06,"endTime":2121.96,"body":"people above you leadership."},{"startTime":2121.98,"endTime":2123.64,"body":"And so can we take a little bit of time?"},{"startTime":2123.67,"endTime":2123.85,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2124.0,"endTime":2127.32,"body":"So it's a negotiation with your"},{"startTime":2124.0,"endTime":2127.32,"body":"teams, plus with your peers"},{"startTime":2127.32,"endTime":2128.48,"body":"and your superiors, right?"},{"startTime":2128.63,"endTime":2130.61,"body":"Have you seen the Jeff Sutherland tweets?"},{"startTime":2130.76,"endTime":2133.52,"body":"About you should estimate spikes."},{"startTime":2133.67,"endTime":2134.69,"body":"I think I have."},{"startTime":2134.73,"endTime":2136.16,"body":"Yes, I have seen that."},{"startTime":2136.31,"endTime":2140.47,"body":"The reason I was looking for the post from"},{"startTime":2136.31,"endTime":2140.47,"body":"Jeff Sutherland about spike work, sizing"},{"startTime":2140.47,"endTime":2145.59,"body":"spike work is because I think spike work"},{"startTime":2140.47,"endTime":2145.59,"body":"needs to be just time box and that's it."},{"startTime":2145.74,"endTime":2148.22,"body":"You can find out what you can"},{"startTime":2145.74,"endTime":2148.22,"body":"find out in the time allotted."},{"startTime":2148.37,"endTime":2152.44,"body":"And then if you decide that you need to"},{"startTime":2148.37,"endTime":2152.44,"body":"extend the time box or create another"},{"startTime":2152.44,"endTime":2155.17,"body":"time box or whatever, then you create"},{"startTime":2152.44,"endTime":2155.17,"body":"another time box of the same length."},{"startTime":2155.32,"endTime":2159.1,"body":"And then you can get around"},{"startTime":2155.32,"endTime":2159.1,"body":"dealing with the size of spike."},{"startTime":2159.15,"endTime":2162.05,"body":"I guess you can get around that also by"},{"startTime":2159.15,"endTime":2162.05,"body":"just saying all spikes are the same size."},{"startTime":2162.2,"endTime":2164.72,"body":"Spike should be able to be dealt"},{"startTime":2162.2,"endTime":2164.72,"body":"with in a day or two, right?"},{"startTime":2164.84,"endTime":2168.79,"body":"But that, I was looking for that post"},{"startTime":2164.84,"endTime":2168.79,"body":"because I was going to say Spikes, the"},{"startTime":2168.79,"endTime":2171.11,"body":"topic, all alone, separate podcast."},{"startTime":2171.15,"endTime":2172.14,"body":"That's what I was going to pitch."},{"startTime":2172.18,"endTime":2172.77,"body":"Oh, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2172.81,"endTime":2176.21,"body":"That's why I was going down that road"},{"startTime":2172.81,"endTime":2176.21,"body":"because I, and I would open up with that."},{"startTime":2176.28,"endTime":2179.62,"body":"I'd open up with that tweet,"},{"startTime":2176.28,"endTime":2179.62,"body":"basically, to say, Jeff Sutherland"},{"startTime":2179.62,"endTime":2182.18,"body":"says, Hey, you can't estimate it"},{"startTime":2179.62,"endTime":2182.18,"body":"if it doesn't have an estimate."},{"startTime":2182.33,"endTime":2183.75,"body":"So everything needs to have an estimate."},{"startTime":2183.76,"endTime":2187.78,"body":"That's the policy here at"},{"startTime":2183.76,"endTime":2187.78,"body":"Brian and Ohm's HR company."},{"startTime":2187.93,"endTime":2190.63,"body":"Whatever happened to the software company"},{"startTime":2187.93,"endTime":2190.63,"body":"who said we need to have an estimate"},{"startTime":2190.64,"endTime":2194.18,"body":"the category here was exploratory"},{"startTime":2190.64,"endTime":2194.18,"body":"work, basically blowing up and"},{"startTime":2194.18,"endTime":2196.85,"body":"becoming part of the shadow backlog"},{"startTime":2194.18,"endTime":2196.85,"body":"because you never give you developers"},{"startTime":2196.85,"endTime":2199.01,"body":"time to do exploratory work."},{"startTime":2199.16,"endTime":2203.47,"body":"I wonder about teams where exploratory"},{"startTime":2199.16,"endTime":2203.47,"body":"work is a big part of the shadow backlog."},{"startTime":2203.62,"endTime":2207.59,"body":"I wonder how those teams do their"},{"startTime":2203.62,"endTime":2207.59,"body":"refinements because a lot of times in"},{"startTime":2207.59,"endTime":2212.72,"body":"refinement, we're pulling up systems"},{"startTime":2207.59,"endTime":2212.72,"body":"and we're calling in experts and we're"},{"startTime":2212.73,"endTime":2216.83,"body":"getting their opinion on basically a"},{"startTime":2212.73,"endTime":2216.83,"body":"lot of the answers for exploratory work."},{"startTime":2216.84,"endTime":2220.82,"body":"we're making room for them during that"},{"startTime":2216.84,"endTime":2220.82,"body":"time to come in and give us answers."},{"startTime":2220.97,"endTime":2224.19,"body":"That we otherwise would have to dedicate"},{"startTime":2220.97,"endTime":2224.19,"body":"a person to, and that person would have"},{"startTime":2224.19,"endTime":2226.25,"body":"to go chase down these things and whatnot."},{"startTime":2226.4,"endTime":2229.99,"body":"So, I do this stuff in refinements,"},{"startTime":2226.4,"endTime":2229.99,"body":"which is different than sprint plannings."},{"startTime":2230.14,"endTime":2232.76,"body":"Where sprint planning assumes"},{"startTime":2230.14,"endTime":2232.76,"body":"we already have these details."},{"startTime":2232.91,"endTime":2235.49,"body":"So I would assume you're not"},{"startTime":2232.91,"endTime":2235.49,"body":"doing a lot of that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2235.64,"endTime":2238.75,"body":"You know what else in exploratory work"},{"startTime":2235.64,"endTime":2238.75,"body":"that can blow up is proof of concepts."},{"startTime":2238.9,"endTime":2243.19,"body":"Oh yeah, definitely proof of concepts,"},{"startTime":2238.9,"endTime":2243.19,"body":"especially if there's no scope bounding."},{"startTime":2243.25,"endTime":2243.58,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2243.59,"endTime":2244.97,"body":"And people will just keep working on it."},{"startTime":2244.97,"endTime":2246.45,"body":"Often there isn't in a POC."},{"startTime":2246.45,"endTime":2247.37,"body":"It's very ambiguous."},{"startTime":2247.52,"endTime":2251.47,"body":"So that needs to come with, how do"},{"startTime":2247.52,"endTime":2251.47,"body":"we know when we're done with the POC?"},{"startTime":2251.53,"endTime":2253.2,"body":"I mean, some sort of DOD, right?"},{"startTime":2253.21,"endTime":2255.34,"body":"Some sort of definition"},{"startTime":2253.21,"endTime":2255.34,"body":"of done on the POC."},{"startTime":2255.36,"endTime":2260.03,"body":"Plus having those frequent reviews of"},{"startTime":2255.36,"endTime":2260.03,"body":"the POC and asking, is this enough?"},{"startTime":2260.26,"endTime":2261.11,"body":"Or do we keep going?"},{"startTime":2261.26,"endTime":2261.51,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2261.56,"endTime":2263.12,"body":"I think you just nailed it right there."},{"startTime":2263.12,"endTime":2264.27,"body":"that's how we know we're done."},{"startTime":2264.28,"endTime":2268.76,"body":"we demo it on a regular basis, Honestly,"},{"startTime":2264.28,"endTime":2268.76,"body":"more frequent than the sprint release,"},{"startTime":2268.79,"endTime":2270.56,"body":"like the normal sprint and cadence."},{"startTime":2270.56,"endTime":2271.57,"body":"I think it should be more than that."},{"startTime":2271.91,"endTime":2274.13,"body":"And then we ask, here's"},{"startTime":2271.91,"endTime":2274.13,"body":"the work that was done."},{"startTime":2274.21,"endTime":2274.83,"body":"Are we done?"},{"startTime":2274.98,"endTime":2276.12,"body":"So on the cadence, right?"},{"startTime":2276.27,"endTime":2277.26,"body":"We don't even need a cadence."},{"startTime":2277.37,"endTime":2280.38,"body":"As soon as you put a piece of"},{"startTime":2277.37,"endTime":2280.38,"body":"functionality in there, get feedback."},{"startTime":2280.4,"endTime":2282.22,"body":"You say, well, here, we just added this."},{"startTime":2282.42,"endTime":2284.41,"body":"And at some point ask"},{"startTime":2282.42,"endTime":2284.41,"body":"what else was missing."},{"startTime":2284.56,"endTime":2288.09,"body":"I like the world that you're living"},{"startTime":2284.56,"endTime":2288.09,"body":"in because some other developers"},{"startTime":2288.09,"endTime":2290.52,"body":"live in the world of, I'm just"},{"startTime":2288.09,"endTime":2290.52,"body":"going to keep throwing stuff."},{"startTime":2290.64,"endTime":2292.3,"body":"and throwing stuff in"},{"startTime":2290.64,"endTime":2292.3,"body":"the release pipeline."},{"startTime":2292.33,"endTime":2297.12,"body":"well they may see that as their"},{"startTime":2292.33,"endTime":2297.12,"body":"actual work and the actual releasing"},{"startTime":2297.15,"endTime":2299.86,"body":"to production, the pipeline, like"},{"startTime":2297.15,"endTime":2299.86,"body":"executing the pipeline and having"},{"startTime":2299.86,"endTime":2300.96,"body":"it roll out to the environments."},{"startTime":2301.29,"endTime":2304.97,"body":"They might see that as additional"},{"startTime":2301.29,"endTime":2304.97,"body":"overhead or somebody else's job."},{"startTime":2304.98,"endTime":2307.46,"body":"If they can ship it to another"},{"startTime":2304.98,"endTime":2307.46,"body":"team, like a DevOps release"},{"startTime":2307.46,"endTime":2308.28,"body":"team or something like that."},{"startTime":2308.43,"endTime":2311.8,"body":"So you have a development team that just"},{"startTime":2308.43,"endTime":2311.8,"body":"keeps throwing stuff into the pipeline"},{"startTime":2311.8,"endTime":2313.24,"body":"and never actually running a release."},{"startTime":2313.39,"endTime":2315.99,"body":"So then when they finally go to run"},{"startTime":2313.39,"endTime":2315.99,"body":"a release, you got all these merge"},{"startTime":2316.0,"endTime":2319.81,"body":"conflicts and stuff that's got to be"},{"startTime":2316.0,"endTime":2319.81,"body":"figured out it's a big disaster because"},{"startTime":2319.81,"endTime":2323.59,"body":"they're not releasing I only call"},{"startTime":2319.81,"endTime":2323.59,"body":"that out because I did live in that"},{"startTime":2323.59,"endTime":2325.23,"body":"world in a previous part of my career."},{"startTime":2325.42,"endTime":2328.37,"body":"I don't live in that world anymore,"},{"startTime":2325.42,"endTime":2328.37,"body":"so I don't talk about it anymore."},{"startTime":2328.39,"endTime":2328.66,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2328.665,"endTime":2329.86,"body":"But it's, well, that world is real."},{"startTime":2329.86,"endTime":2330.82,"body":"It's very real."},{"startTime":2331.12,"endTime":2331.9,"body":"Yeah, it's real."},{"startTime":2331.9,"endTime":2335.23,"body":"And a lot of people live in that"},{"startTime":2331.9,"endTime":2335.23,"body":"world, so just be mindful of that."},{"startTime":2335.31,"endTime":2339.24,"body":"I think that people listening to this"},{"startTime":2335.31,"endTime":2339.24,"body":"should not walk away by kind of taking"},{"startTime":2339.33,"endTime":2342.0,"body":"just one thing that we say, right."},{"startTime":2342.05,"endTime":2343.28,"body":"that exploratory work."},{"startTime":2343.31,"endTime":2343.58,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2343.58,"endTime":2344.78,"body":"Well, gotta be careful."},{"startTime":2345.02,"endTime":2346.13,"body":"No, we're not saying that."},{"startTime":2346.13,"endTime":2347.09,"body":"What we're saying is."},{"startTime":2347.24,"endTime":2349.21,"body":"It's on a case by case basis, right?"},{"startTime":2349.22,"endTime":2351.73,"body":"How quickly do you need to do that POC?"},{"startTime":2351.78,"endTime":2352.7,"body":"What do you need to learn?"},{"startTime":2352.71,"endTime":2353.45,"body":"How fast?"},{"startTime":2353.6,"endTime":2356.34,"body":"And size work that way, but"},{"startTime":2353.6,"endTime":2356.34,"body":"put it in the main backlog."},{"startTime":2356.5,"endTime":2357.55,"body":"Yeah, that's what we're saying."},{"startTime":2357.56,"endTime":2358.13,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2358.25,"endTime":2361.68,"body":"if your policy is, we don't"},{"startTime":2358.25,"endTime":2361.68,"body":"pull anything into the sprint to"},{"startTime":2361.68,"endTime":2363.09,"body":"get done unless it has points."},{"startTime":2363.32,"endTime":2366.38,"body":"So now we have to have"},{"startTime":2363.32,"endTime":2366.38,"body":"this big heartache about."},{"startTime":2366.7,"endTime":2369.39,"body":"Do we point our spikes"},{"startTime":2366.7,"endTime":2369.39,"body":"or not point our spikes?"},{"startTime":2369.39,"endTime":2372.68,"body":"Well, I don't know like You don't need"},{"startTime":2369.39,"endTime":2372.68,"body":"any of that like pick a number throw it"},{"startTime":2372.68,"endTime":2375.59,"body":"in there Or don't pick a number don't pick"},{"startTime":2372.68,"endTime":2375.59,"body":"it up Don't pick a number and just time"},{"startTime":2375.59,"endTime":2378.87,"body":"box it and you're done with it Like you"},{"startTime":2375.59,"endTime":2378.87,"body":"don't need to be complicated about this."},{"startTime":2378.92,"endTime":2382.71,"body":"No, that's exactly right Yeah, and"},{"startTime":2378.92,"endTime":2382.71,"body":"if you time box it or if you don't"},{"startTime":2382.71,"endTime":2385.06,"body":"land it, well fine extend it, right?"},{"startTime":2385.15,"endTime":2386.62,"body":"Okay Based on feedback."},{"startTime":2386.93,"endTime":2387.71,"body":"That's all I mean."},{"startTime":2387.75,"endTime":2391.75,"body":"Yeah Enough said like I don't Again,"},{"startTime":2387.75,"endTime":2391.75,"body":"there's a reason I could have a"},{"startTime":2391.75,"endTime":2395.63,"body":"whole podcast about that specific"},{"startTime":2391.75,"endTime":2395.63,"body":"topic Cause people get ridiculous."},{"startTime":2395.64,"endTime":2396.57,"body":"Like ridiculous?"},{"startTime":2396.57,"endTime":2397.09,"body":"Who cares?"},{"startTime":2397.24,"endTime":2400.13,"body":"So dogma, the point of the"},{"startTime":2397.24,"endTime":2400.13,"body":"spike is I need the learning."},{"startTime":2400.33,"endTime":2403.09,"body":"I need to know I need that"},{"startTime":2400.33,"endTime":2403.09,"body":"ambiguity knocked down."},{"startTime":2403.37,"endTime":2407.93,"body":"So I'm basically willing to pay any"},{"startTime":2403.37,"endTime":2407.93,"body":"costs to have it get knocked down until"},{"startTime":2407.93,"endTime":2411.77,"body":"you tell me until it gets too expensive,"},{"startTime":2407.93,"endTime":2411.77,"body":"like until it becomes so expensive"},{"startTime":2411.77,"endTime":2413.23,"body":"that I'm not willing to pay it anymore."},{"startTime":2413.24,"endTime":2413.58,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2413.88,"endTime":2414.09,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2414.1,"endTime":2416.14,"body":"So how can we control that?"},{"startTime":2416.29,"endTime":2417.58,"body":"Oh, I know how we can control it."},{"startTime":2417.62,"endTime":2420.86,"body":"We can just time box it and say, have"},{"startTime":2417.62,"endTime":2420.86,"body":"we learned enough in the time allotted?"},{"startTime":2420.89,"endTime":2421.32,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2421.43,"endTime":2421.86,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2421.99,"endTime":2423.78,"body":"Let me give you another time segment."},{"startTime":2423.93,"endTime":2427.6,"body":"I also think there's another element"},{"startTime":2423.93,"endTime":2427.6,"body":"to it, which is just, just describe"},{"startTime":2427.6,"endTime":2431.06,"body":"up front, what is it that we hope"},{"startTime":2427.6,"endTime":2431.06,"body":"to learn so we know when we're done."},{"startTime":2431.17,"endTime":2434.11,"body":"Otherwise we just keep learning"},{"startTime":2431.17,"endTime":2434.11,"body":"and the developers will keep going."},{"startTime":2434.31,"endTime":2434.83,"body":"With the team."},{"startTime":2435.07,"endTime":2437.92,"body":"I mean, that is the old arguing agile of"},{"startTime":2435.07,"endTime":2437.92,"body":"the side of this, the other side of this"},{"startTime":2437.95,"endTime":2442.29,"body":"is let me the developer figure out what"},{"startTime":2437.95,"endTime":2442.29,"body":"I'm done and just go away leave me alone."},{"startTime":2442.29,"endTime":2445.6,"body":"why do I have to keep coming to you"},{"startTime":2442.29,"endTime":2445.6,"body":"asking permission to have more time?"},{"startTime":2445.75,"endTime":2447.27,"body":"We like, you like getting paid, right?"},{"startTime":2447.42,"endTime":2449.89,"body":"We, we get money when"},{"startTime":2447.42,"endTime":2449.89,"body":"customers buy real product."},{"startTime":2450.19,"endTime":2450.68,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2450.68,"endTime":2453.73,"body":"I mean, I understand, but also"},{"startTime":2450.68,"endTime":2453.73,"body":"like you have empathy for their"},{"startTime":2453.73,"endTime":2456.25,"body":"position, which is like, it takes"},{"startTime":2453.73,"endTime":2456.25,"body":"a lot of time to really understand"},{"startTime":2456.36,"endTime":2458.69,"body":"the new technologies and understand"},{"startTime":2456.36,"endTime":2458.69,"body":"all the business cases through it."},{"startTime":2458.74,"endTime":2462.96,"body":"the point that you're raising, which"},{"startTime":2458.74,"endTime":2462.96,"body":"also is my point is nobody can go"},{"startTime":2462.96,"endTime":2466.98,"body":"off on their own and burn a bunch of"},{"startTime":2462.96,"endTime":2466.98,"body":"company money on their own, like without"},{"startTime":2466.99,"endTime":2471.02,"body":"checking in with anybody, nobody in the"},{"startTime":2466.99,"endTime":2471.02,"body":"business, product managers, executives,"},{"startTime":2471.08,"endTime":2474.67,"body":"nobody works like that in the, even"},{"startTime":2471.08,"endTime":2474.67,"body":"the C level, even CEO executives, you"},{"startTime":2474.67,"endTime":2478.96,"body":"can't just burn an infinite amount"},{"startTime":2474.67,"endTime":2478.96,"body":"of money and time and expect to not"},{"startTime":2478.96,"endTime":2480.8,"body":"have to report that to somebody."},{"startTime":2480.95,"endTime":2484.17,"body":"Yeah, expensive to be"},{"startTime":2480.95,"endTime":2484.17,"body":"accountable for that to somebody."},{"startTime":2484.32,"endTime":2484.98,"body":"Exactly,"},{"startTime":2485.08,"endTime":2488.33,"body":"I had two other quick things that I"},{"startTime":2485.08,"endTime":2488.33,"body":"think are quick, we'll see which is"},{"startTime":2488.6,"endTime":2491.12,"body":"parallel teams slash tracks of work."},{"startTime":2491.13,"endTime":2495.1,"body":"What I mean by that is multiple"},{"startTime":2491.13,"endTime":2495.1,"body":"products being serviced by one team."},{"startTime":2495.405,"endTime":2495.965,"body":"Team."},{"startTime":2496.115,"endTime":2499.975,"body":"if you have multiple products, usually"},{"startTime":2496.115,"endTime":2499.975,"body":"what happens is as the team members are"},{"startTime":2500.125,"endTime":2503.825,"body":"moving fast and transitioning between"},{"startTime":2500.125,"endTime":2503.825,"body":"products, there's that switching costs."},{"startTime":2504.155,"endTime":2506.495,"body":"Part of paying that switching costs"},{"startTime":2504.155,"endTime":2506.495,"body":"is they'll just do something real"},{"startTime":2506.495,"endTime":2508.805,"body":"quick over here and then come back"},{"startTime":2506.495,"endTime":2508.805,"body":"to the main thing they're working on."},{"startTime":2508.805,"endTime":2510.495,"body":"So they're incurring debt the whole time."},{"startTime":2510.495,"endTime":2511.225,"body":"They just don't know it."},{"startTime":2511.315,"endTime":2511.735,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2511.775,"endTime":2512.035,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2512.045,"endTime":2514.745,"body":"that's part of the shadow backlog is"},{"startTime":2512.045,"endTime":2514.745,"body":"like, you don't really realize that"},{"startTime":2514.745,"endTime":2516.635,"body":"they've come off of the main thing."},{"startTime":2516.685,"endTime":2519.625,"body":"To go do one, two little quick"},{"startTime":2516.685,"endTime":2519.625,"body":"fixes on this other thing, and"},{"startTime":2519.625,"endTime":2520.655,"body":"then they're popping back off."},{"startTime":2520.705,"endTime":2522.635,"body":"You don't notice it until"},{"startTime":2520.705,"endTime":2522.635,"body":"they're gone two days and like,"},{"startTime":2522.635,"endTime":2523.615,"body":"wait a minute, what's going on?"},{"startTime":2523.795,"endTime":2524.075,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2524.115,"endTime":2527.725,"body":"And that's made even worse"},{"startTime":2524.115,"endTime":2527.725,"body":"by who's judging them?"},{"startTime":2527.725,"endTime":2529.825,"body":"Like who's actually measuring"},{"startTime":2527.725,"endTime":2529.825,"body":"what they're working on."},{"startTime":2529.975,"endTime":2534.155,"body":"So if they're being measured on this main"},{"startTime":2529.975,"endTime":2534.155,"body":"work that they're doing and they kind"},{"startTime":2534.155,"endTime":2536.445,"body":"of just go away somewhere and come back."},{"startTime":2536.595,"endTime":2538.715,"body":"Then they're going to want"},{"startTime":2536.595,"endTime":2538.715,"body":"to rush things over there."},{"startTime":2538.765,"endTime":2541.085,"body":"So then come back to this"},{"startTime":2538.765,"endTime":2541.085,"body":"cause all eyes are on this."},{"startTime":2541.135,"endTime":2541.375,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2541.375,"endTime":2541.445,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2541.595,"endTime":2542.805,"body":"It's just bad practice."},{"startTime":2543.015,"endTime":2546.035,"body":"It's just too many, two balls"},{"startTime":2543.015,"endTime":2546.035,"body":"in the air is one ball too many."},{"startTime":2546.315,"endTime":2546.795,"body":"Probably."},{"startTime":2546.945,"endTime":2547.725,"body":"Parallel teams."},{"startTime":2547.875,"endTime":2549.845,"body":"I wanted to combine this"},{"startTime":2547.875,"endTime":2549.845,"body":"with another category."},{"startTime":2550.045,"endTime":2552.395,"body":"it was either like non transparent."},{"startTime":2552.405,"endTime":2556.415,"body":"Don't understand the, like maybe one of"},{"startTime":2552.405,"endTime":2556.415,"body":"these parallel tracks that's happening"},{"startTime":2556.415,"endTime":2558.235,"body":"is a very, very old legacy product."},{"startTime":2558.235,"endTime":2558.275,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2558.425,"endTime":2559.685,"body":"That maybe they don't like this."},{"startTime":2559.725,"endTime":2562.515,"body":"The company doesn't want to"},{"startTime":2559.725,"endTime":2562.515,"body":"staff product managers for right."},{"startTime":2562.545,"endTime":2566.415,"body":"So it's unclear about who"},{"startTime":2562.545,"endTime":2566.415,"body":"sets the priority for an end."},{"startTime":2566.425,"endTime":2569.175,"body":"Also unclear about when"},{"startTime":2566.425,"endTime":2569.175,"body":"things get worked on."},{"startTime":2569.225,"endTime":2572.105,"body":"it doesn't have a clearly defined"},{"startTime":2569.225,"endTime":2572.105,"body":"roadmap that's transparent and it's"},{"startTime":2572.105,"endTime":2573.795,"body":"not clear when they're making releases."},{"startTime":2573.845,"endTime":2576.475,"body":"the customers are still using it and"},{"startTime":2573.845,"endTime":2576.475,"body":"are happy when they get new releases."},{"startTime":2576.625,"endTime":2579.185,"body":"They can't be guaranteed that they're"},{"startTime":2576.625,"endTime":2579.185,"body":"going to get a new release every week or"},{"startTime":2579.185,"endTime":2582.775,"body":"whatever, like that cadence has changed"},{"startTime":2579.185,"endTime":2582.775,"body":"because the business is no longer funding."},{"startTime":2582.775,"endTime":2586.295,"body":"the business may well be wanting customers"},{"startTime":2582.775,"endTime":2586.295,"body":"to get off of the old legacy, And"},{"startTime":2586.315,"endTime":2587.995,"body":"jump onto one of their newer versions"},{"startTime":2588.055,"endTime":2590.655,"body":"Yes This is a very passive"},{"startTime":2588.055,"endTime":2590.655,"body":"aggressive category."},{"startTime":2590.845,"endTime":2591.245,"body":"Yes, indeed."},{"startTime":2591.245,"endTime":2595.375,"body":"This multiple products, one team"},{"startTime":2591.245,"endTime":2595.375,"body":"like, dude, this is a problem."},{"startTime":2595.525,"endTime":2597.085,"body":"I guess if it's multiple products."},{"startTime":2597.235,"endTime":2601.485,"body":"With one team and one product manager"},{"startTime":2597.235,"endTime":2601.485,"body":"who is also over all the products."},{"startTime":2601.635,"endTime":2605.335,"body":"Then I guess it's a little easier"},{"startTime":2601.635,"endTime":2605.335,"body":"because it's one team working out"},{"startTime":2605.335,"endTime":2608.945,"body":"of multiple backlogs and then they"},{"startTime":2605.335,"endTime":2608.945,"body":"have one sprint, but that one sprint"},{"startTime":2608.945,"endTime":2610.815,"body":"is composed of different products."},{"startTime":2610.865,"endTime":2615.355,"body":"Yeah, but I mean, I guess the point"},{"startTime":2610.865,"endTime":2615.355,"body":"of that category though as far as the"},{"startTime":2615.355,"endTime":2619.585,"body":"shadow backlog goes, is like, I've also"},{"startTime":2615.355,"endTime":2619.585,"body":"been on teams where as programs are"},{"startTime":2619.585,"endTime":2622.525,"body":"dissolved, or as teams are dissolved,"},{"startTime":2619.585,"endTime":2622.525,"body":"or whatever, like the people that are"},{"startTime":2622.525,"endTime":2626.955,"body":"left join another team, and then the"},{"startTime":2622.525,"endTime":2626.955,"body":"maintenance of that product that's"},{"startTime":2626.955,"endTime":2631.105,"body":"in sunset mode is also added to"},{"startTime":2626.955,"endTime":2631.105,"body":"this other team's responsibilities"},{"startTime":2631.125,"endTime":2634.315,"body":"or sometimes it's not added to"},{"startTime":2631.125,"endTime":2634.315,"body":"the other team's responsibilities."},{"startTime":2634.455,"endTime":2637.135,"body":"I was once with a program"},{"startTime":2634.455,"endTime":2637.135,"body":"that was completely spun down."},{"startTime":2637.135,"endTime":2640.135,"body":"They only kept two developers and"},{"startTime":2637.135,"endTime":2640.135,"body":"they added those two developers."},{"startTime":2640.135,"endTime":2643.785,"body":"They added one to one team and one to"},{"startTime":2640.135,"endTime":2643.785,"body":"the other, but those two developers were"},{"startTime":2643.785,"endTime":2646.435,"body":"the ones that got calls from the project"},{"startTime":2643.785,"endTime":2646.435,"body":"managers when the project managers of"},{"startTime":2646.445,"endTime":2647.885,"body":"that organization own the customers."},{"startTime":2647.885,"endTime":2649.265,"body":"Don't ask me how I didn't set this up."},{"startTime":2649.415,"endTime":2652.415,"body":"The project managers own the"},{"startTime":2649.415,"endTime":2652.415,"body":"customer relationships and the"},{"startTime":2652.515,"endTime":2654.855,"body":"customers would say, Hey, we had"},{"startTime":2652.515,"endTime":2654.855,"body":"this problem with the software."},{"startTime":2655.005,"endTime":2656.505,"body":"We found a bug, we need to fix."},{"startTime":2656.535,"endTime":2659.995,"body":"And the project managers would go to"},{"startTime":2656.535,"endTime":2659.995,"body":"the product managers who own those"},{"startTime":2659.995,"endTime":2663.515,"body":"developers to say, we need this"},{"startTime":2659.995,"endTime":2663.515,"body":"developer for a certain amount of"},{"startTime":2663.515,"endTime":2665.225,"body":"time to do these fixes or whatever."},{"startTime":2665.225,"endTime":2666.375,"body":"And they would interrupt their."},{"startTime":2666.525,"endTime":2667.765,"body":"Sprints that are in progress."},{"startTime":2667.765,"endTime":2670.275,"body":"they're committed work that was"},{"startTime":2667.765,"endTime":2670.275,"body":"in progress because this stuff"},{"startTime":2670.275,"endTime":2671.615,"body":"would come up as like support work."},{"startTime":2671.625,"endTime":2675.015,"body":"in that instance, we like the project"},{"startTime":2671.625,"endTime":2675.015,"body":"managers and the product managers"},{"startTime":2675.015,"endTime":2676.305,"body":"had good working relationships."},{"startTime":2676.455,"endTime":2679.785,"body":"But it very easily could have"},{"startTime":2676.455,"endTime":2679.785,"body":"been the project managers go"},{"startTime":2679.785,"endTime":2682.195,"body":"directly to the developer to say,"},{"startTime":2679.785,"endTime":2682.195,"body":"Hey, we need you to fix this."},{"startTime":2682.445,"endTime":2684.695,"body":"And now there's a stream of"},{"startTime":2682.445,"endTime":2684.695,"body":"work in the shadow backlog."},{"startTime":2684.845,"endTime":2685.545,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":2685.545,"endTime":2688.435,"body":"And it's, it's really not all that"},{"startTime":2685.545,"endTime":2688.435,"body":"pleasant for the poor developer"},{"startTime":2688.435,"endTime":2689.425,"body":"who's caught in this thing."},{"startTime":2689.425,"endTime":2689.685,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2689.835,"endTime":2691.845,"body":"I mean, they have multiple masters."},{"startTime":2691.975,"endTime":2695.985,"body":"Oh, I was, Well, one of the, one"},{"startTime":2691.975,"endTime":2695.985,"body":"of the two left cause they didn't"},{"startTime":2695.985,"endTime":2696.885,"body":"want to work in that environment."},{"startTime":2696.905,"endTime":2700.795,"body":"And then we had one developer that did all"},{"startTime":2696.905,"endTime":2700.795,"body":"the maintenance for that sunset product"},{"startTime":2700.795,"endTime":2703.515,"body":"line that still brought in a significant"},{"startTime":2700.795,"endTime":2703.515,"body":"amount of revenue for the company."},{"startTime":2703.785,"endTime":2705.565,"body":"So that's your like"},{"startTime":2703.785,"endTime":2705.565,"body":"million dollar developer."},{"startTime":2705.565,"endTime":2709.115,"body":"So basically like that developer could"},{"startTime":2705.565,"endTime":2709.115,"body":"have, they were not the kind of person"},{"startTime":2709.335,"endTime":2711.455,"body":"who would ask for like, Hey, 20%."},{"startTime":2711.605,"endTime":2714.595,"body":"50 percent or whatever I'm going"},{"startTime":2711.605,"endTime":2714.595,"body":"to leave, but they very well could"},{"startTime":2714.595,"endTime":2716.035,"body":"have, they could win the lottery."},{"startTime":2716.035,"endTime":2717.425,"body":"And now the company's in deep trouble."},{"startTime":2717.445,"endTime":2722.085,"body":"The only other category that we have left"},{"startTime":2717.445,"endTime":2722.085,"body":"is dealing with NFRs, which is usability."},{"startTime":2722.315,"endTime":2725.885,"body":"Like I want to go make this change to"},{"startTime":2722.315,"endTime":2725.885,"body":"the UI, like a UI front end developer."},{"startTime":2725.915,"endTime":2726.605,"body":"We'll do this."},{"startTime":2726.635,"endTime":2730.135,"body":"I've, I've seen them do this"},{"startTime":2726.635,"endTime":2730.135,"body":"often Hey, I, I need to add."},{"startTime":2730.445,"endTime":2734.185,"body":"This new toggle to the map or this I"},{"startTime":2730.445,"endTime":2734.185,"body":"want to add a dark mode to the map."},{"startTime":2734.245,"endTime":2737.175,"body":"Nobody says,  everyone else has"},{"startTime":2734.245,"endTime":2737.175,"body":"got dark modes and we don't have"},{"startTime":2737.175,"endTime":2740.465,"body":"dark modes and I feel real strongly"},{"startTime":2737.175,"endTime":2740.465,"body":"that we should have a dark mode."},{"startTime":2740.465,"endTime":2741.605,"body":"Cause I'm I, I'm a developer."},{"startTime":2741.605,"endTime":2744.125,"body":"I like only working on everything"},{"startTime":2741.605,"endTime":2744.125,"body":"is dark mode all the time."},{"startTime":2744.275,"endTime":2745.595,"body":"Live my life on dark mode."},{"startTime":2745.745,"endTime":2746.515,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":2746.515,"endTime":2748.715,"body":"Everything you just said"},{"startTime":2746.515,"endTime":2748.715,"body":"starts with the letter I."},{"startTime":2748.875,"endTime":2752.485,"body":"So yeah, these are solo people"},{"startTime":2748.875,"endTime":2752.485,"body":"that just basically have their own"},{"startTime":2752.485,"endTime":2755.245,"body":"opinions on what should be in the"},{"startTime":2752.485,"endTime":2755.245,"body":"product and they go work on it."},{"startTime":2755.265,"endTime":2759.135,"body":"Maybe, maybe, maybe because scalability"},{"startTime":2755.265,"endTime":2759.135,"body":"and performance, I've seen developers"},{"startTime":2759.135,"endTime":2761.995,"body":"get lost down the rabbit hole"},{"startTime":2759.135,"endTime":2761.995,"body":"of scalability and performance."},{"startTime":2762.235,"endTime":2767.455,"body":"But performance of, hey, I need to Go and"},{"startTime":2762.235,"endTime":2767.455,"body":"pull all the SQL queries in our system and"},{"startTime":2767.465,"endTime":2771.405,"body":"optimize every single query Performance"},{"startTime":2767.465,"endTime":2771.405,"body":"is one of those things that the more you"},{"startTime":2771.405,"endTime":2773.495,"body":"work on it, the more you can work on it."},{"startTime":2773.605,"endTime":2775.305,"body":"It keeps going on and on and on."},{"startTime":2775.305,"endTime":2775.575,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2775.745,"endTime":2776.035,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2776.175,"endTime":2776.795,"body":"absolutely."},{"startTime":2776.985,"endTime":2780.645,"body":"I've seen people like that, that are"},{"startTime":2776.985,"endTime":2780.645,"body":"very passionate about their work."},{"startTime":2780.795,"endTime":2783.575,"body":"And they're like, no, I know I"},{"startTime":2780.795,"endTime":2783.575,"body":"can improve this two more percent."},{"startTime":2783.81,"endTime":2784.15,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2784.3,"endTime":2786.3,"body":"It's like, oh, just go"},{"startTime":2784.3,"endTime":2786.3,"body":"work on something else."},{"startTime":2786.3,"endTime":2787.69,"body":"Nobody cares about that."},{"startTime":2787.83,"endTime":2789.23,"body":"It's already fast enough."},{"startTime":2789.26,"endTime":2789.72,"body":"They care."},{"startTime":2789.9,"endTime":2790.62,"body":"You know, they care."},{"startTime":2790.66,"endTime":2791.47,"body":"They themselves do."},{"startTime":2791.6,"endTime":2792.61,"body":"Yeah, this is very close."},{"startTime":2792.61,"endTime":2795.34,"body":"The NFR thing is very close to the"},{"startTime":2792.61,"endTime":2795.34,"body":"personal task list that we were"},{"startTime":2795.37,"endTime":2797.05,"body":"talking about scalability, for example."},{"startTime":2797.115,"endTime":2800.415,"body":"Where do you stop at scalability?"},{"startTime":2800.565,"endTime":2803.395,"body":"You know, the system needs to"},{"startTime":2800.565,"endTime":2803.395,"body":"handle a hundred concurrent users."},{"startTime":2803.625,"endTime":2805.765,"body":"The system needs to handle"},{"startTime":2803.625,"endTime":2805.765,"body":"a thousand concurrent users."},{"startTime":2805.945,"endTime":2810.965,"body":"do you stop at a hundred times"},{"startTime":2805.945,"endTime":2810.965,"body":"what our current normal traffic is?"},{"startTime":2810.975,"endTime":2812.625,"body":"So rule of thumb is 10, isn't it?"},{"startTime":2812.805,"endTime":2815.845,"body":"So stop at 10 and then"},{"startTime":2812.805,"endTime":2815.845,"body":"build in auto scaling."},{"startTime":2815.885,"endTime":2816.125,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2816.165,"endTime":2819.415,"body":"I think this category is the personal"},{"startTime":2816.165,"endTime":2819.415,"body":"task list because the more that someone"},{"startTime":2819.415,"endTime":2823.015,"body":"is concerned and digs into a category"},{"startTime":2819.415,"endTime":2823.015,"body":"and keeps working on it as their kind"},{"startTime":2823.015,"endTime":2827.105,"body":"of like pet project of I think about"},{"startTime":2823.015,"endTime":2827.105,"body":"network engineers, this way is like,"},{"startTime":2827.105,"endTime":2828.94,"body":"oh, I got a, Optimize the network."},{"startTime":2828.94,"endTime":2831.43,"body":"And I got to make sure we got"},{"startTime":2828.94,"endTime":2831.43,"body":"bandwidth for this and redundancy."},{"startTime":2831.48,"endTime":2832.92,"body":"failover, basically failover."},{"startTime":2833.07,"endTime":2834.51,"body":"Especially with cloud tech now."},{"startTime":2834.54,"endTime":2838.72,"body":"But I remember those days too and then"},{"startTime":2834.54,"endTime":2838.72,"body":"you add on top of that, all the nuances"},{"startTime":2838.75,"endTime":2842.95,"body":"you fail over, but you can't have data"},{"startTime":2838.75,"endTime":2842.95,"body":"from Germany, outside of Germany, right."},{"startTime":2843.1,"endTime":2845.54,"body":"All of those little nuances"},{"startTime":2843.1,"endTime":2845.54,"body":"layer on top of that."},{"startTime":2845.69,"endTime":2849.5,"body":"Yeah, a lot of this, a lot of that in"},{"startTime":2845.69,"endTime":2849.5,"body":"the four categories the personal task"},{"startTime":2849.5,"endTime":2852.55,"body":"list, now that I'm now that I'm thinking"},{"startTime":2849.5,"endTime":2852.55,"body":"about it a little bit deeper, so."},{"startTime":2852.7,"endTime":2855.94,"body":"I think, I think you can go a long"},{"startTime":2852.7,"endTime":2855.94,"body":"way towards you know, eliminating"},{"startTime":2856.09,"endTime":2860.34,"body":"quite a bit of that by defining the"},{"startTime":2856.09,"endTime":2860.34,"body":"attributes that you need up front."},{"startTime":2860.36,"endTime":2860.56,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2860.82,"endTime":2863.27,"body":"And putting guardrails there, right?"},{"startTime":2863.36,"endTime":2867.89,"body":"If it scales to a hundred times,"},{"startTime":2863.36,"endTime":2867.89,"body":"Is that better than 50 times?"},{"startTime":2868.04,"endTime":2869.97,"body":"Cause we've never had"},{"startTime":2868.04,"endTime":2869.97,"body":"that before, you know?"},{"startTime":2869.97,"endTime":2874.2,"body":"So maybe stop and just monitor their"},{"startTime":2869.97,"endTime":2874.2,"body":"times, probably better spent putting"},{"startTime":2874.2,"endTime":2875.75,"body":"in some application monitoring."},{"startTime":2875.75,"endTime":2878.57,"body":"So it reports out the"},{"startTime":2875.75,"endTime":2878.57,"body":"peaks and valleys, right."},{"startTime":2878.72,"endTime":2880.18,"body":"During the day or whatever."},{"startTime":2880.23,"endTime":2881.46,"body":"Monitoring is a great one too."},{"startTime":2881.5,"endTime":2884.48,"body":"Cause like there's always one"},{"startTime":2881.5,"endTime":2884.48,"body":"additional detail, monitor"},{"startTime":2884.48,"endTime":2885.99,"body":"anything, one additional detail."},{"startTime":2886.0,"endTime":2887.18,"body":"You just gotta have, it'll be perfect."},{"startTime":2887.18,"endTime":2889.84,"body":"If I have one additional detail,"},{"startTime":2887.18,"endTime":2889.84,"body":"that's another great one."},{"startTime":2889.99,"endTime":2890.38,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2890.53,"endTime":2891.19,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":2891.34,"endTime":2895.59,"body":"Well,  that's the podcast today of"},{"startTime":2891.34,"endTime":2895.59,"body":"you know, , a shadow backlog, the"},{"startTime":2895.6,"endTime":2897.79,"body":"hey buddy backlog, anybody backlog."},{"startTime":2897.88,"endTime":2898.5,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":2898.58,"endTime":2899.01,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2899.03,"endTime":2902.29,"body":"if you're looking at a backlog, that"},{"startTime":2899.03,"endTime":2902.29,"body":"might be your Robin, if you're Batman,"},{"startTime":2902.29,"endTime":2903.75,"body":"or it could just be a shadow Batman."},{"startTime":2903.9,"endTime":2906.38,"body":"I don't think it's, I think it's"},{"startTime":2903.9,"endTime":2906.38,"body":"your Joker, if you're Batman."},{"startTime":2906.38,"endTime":2907.85,"body":"I think it's your worst enemy."},{"startTime":2907.85,"endTime":2908.89,"body":"Standing over your shoulder."},{"startTime":2908.95,"endTime":2911.33,"body":"we only kind of talked about"},{"startTime":2908.95,"endTime":2911.33,"body":"all the different types."},{"startTime":2911.48,"endTime":2913.76,"body":"Of things that can contribute"},{"startTime":2911.48,"endTime":2913.76,"body":"to the shadow backlog."},{"startTime":2913.76,"endTime":2916.0,"body":"We didn't really talk about"},{"startTime":2913.76,"endTime":2916.0,"body":"what to do with them, how"},{"startTime":2916.0,"endTime":2917.28,"body":"to resolve them or whatever."},{"startTime":2917.28,"endTime":2921.35,"body":"Maybe that's a part two, maybe it's a"},{"startTime":2917.28,"endTime":2921.35,"body":"second part, completely separate podcast."},{"startTime":2921.5,"endTime":2924.42,"body":"I don't know if you have good backlog"},{"startTime":2921.5,"endTime":2924.42,"body":"management, if you're doing backlog"},{"startTime":2924.42,"endTime":2926.95,"body":"refinements, if you're involving"},{"startTime":2924.42,"endTime":2926.95,"body":"your team, if you're getting the"},{"startTime":2926.95,"endTime":2929.93,"body":"right stakeholders in there, you"},{"startTime":2926.95,"endTime":2929.93,"body":"can do a lot to mitigate this."},{"startTime":2929.93,"endTime":2933.29,"body":"So I think when we talked about"},{"startTime":2929.93,"endTime":2933.29,"body":"how you manage the backlog is"},{"startTime":2933.3,"endTime":2934.94,"body":"not clear, it's not transparent."},{"startTime":2935.0,"endTime":2936.71,"body":"Like that is the."},{"startTime":2936.86,"endTime":2940.81,"body":"Kind of the crux of why this is a big"},{"startTime":2936.86,"endTime":2940.81,"body":"problem is people don't understand your"},{"startTime":2940.81,"endTime":2943.46,"body":"backlog management Maybe they're not"},{"startTime":2940.81,"endTime":2943.46,"body":"invited to it and they should be maybe"},{"startTime":2943.46,"endTime":2947.6,"body":"you're not casting a wide enough net to"},{"startTime":2943.46,"endTime":2947.6,"body":"bring people into your refinements, you"},{"startTime":2947.6,"endTime":2949.27,"body":"know Yeah, absolutely agree with that."},{"startTime":2949.45,"endTime":2952.4,"body":"Let's do a second part on"},{"startTime":2949.45,"endTime":2952.4,"body":"what to do about these things."},{"startTime":2952.55,"endTime":2953.73,"body":"Yeah, I think that would be a good one."},{"startTime":2953.74,"endTime":2954.94,"body":"It may not be as long as this."},{"startTime":2954.98,"endTime":2955.44,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2955.63,"endTime":2958.76,"body":"Yeah, maybe not, but I don't, I don't"},{"startTime":2955.63,"endTime":2958.76,"body":"know what the title of that one is like"},{"startTime":2958.81,"endTime":2961.24,"body":"killing the, killing the shadow backlog."},{"startTime":2961.39,"endTime":2963.83,"body":"It's a shining a light on the illuminate."},{"startTime":2963.83,"endTime":2964.33,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2964.48,"endTime":2967.19,"body":"Well, if you have an idea for what part"},{"startTime":2964.48,"endTime":2967.19,"body":"two would be Hit us up in the comments."},{"startTime":2967.2,"endTime":2968.54,"body":"Yeah, we'd love to hear from you."},{"startTime":2968.69,"endTime":2970.3,"body":"And don't forget to like and subscribe."}]}