{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":13.328,"body":"Welcome back to the arguing agile podcast."},{"startTime":13.398,"endTime":14.267,"body":"Ed Martin is back"},{"startTime":14.337,"endTime":15.373,"body":"Ed, we need a title for you."},{"startTime":15.432,"endTime":17.533,"body":"I was gonna say Software development Sage."},{"startTime":17.683,"endTime":19.463,"body":"The czar of software development."},{"startTime":19.483,"endTime":20.433,"body":"Bienvenido, Ed."},{"startTime":20.443,"endTime":21.613,"body":"Yeah, yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":21.633,"endTime":23.323,"body":"I've had many different"},{"startTime":21.633,"endTime":23.323,"body":"roles in my career."},{"startTime":23.343,"endTime":25.083,"body":"I started out as a network engineer."},{"startTime":25.093,"endTime":28.602,"body":"I became a software developer"},{"startTime":25.093,"endTime":28.602,"body":"became a IT business leader."},{"startTime":28.862,"endTime":32.232,"body":"I have had multiple roles and"},{"startTime":28.862,"endTime":32.232,"body":"leadership for the last 20 years so"},{"startTime":32.232,"endTime":33.342,"body":"yeah, I'm a product minded leader."},{"startTime":33.342,"endTime":33.592,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":33.592,"endTime":36.582,"body":"if you're in an organization"},{"startTime":33.592,"endTime":36.582,"body":"that is not product focused I"},{"startTime":36.582,"endTime":37.702,"body":"tend to find myself challenged."},{"startTime":37.752,"endTime":41.832,"body":"if you're too busy doing tech work"},{"startTime":37.752,"endTime":41.832,"body":"and not being focused on product."},{"startTime":41.892,"endTime":44.242,"body":"What the customer needs, what the"},{"startTime":41.892,"endTime":44.242,"body":"customer is asking for and what's"},{"startTime":44.242,"endTime":45.532,"body":"going to drive overall revenue."},{"startTime":45.852,"endTime":49.502,"body":"I get challenged in those environments"},{"startTime":45.852,"endTime":49.502,"body":"to perform well because I'm interested"},{"startTime":49.502,"endTime":50.792,"body":"in what the customer wants and needs."},{"startTime":50.892,"endTime":52.492,"body":"And how are we going to provide that?"},{"startTime":52.502,"endTime":53.922,"body":"And what steps does it"},{"startTime":52.502,"endTime":53.922,"body":"take us to get there?"},{"startTime":54.072,"endTime":56.582,"body":"So from a Marty Cagan standpoint,"},{"startTime":54.072,"endTime":56.582,"body":"let's just go with product leader!"},{"startTime":56.582,"endTime":61.082,"body":"Ed and I have been talking since"},{"startTime":56.582,"endTime":61.082,"body":"before this Transform book from"},{"startTime":61.082,"endTime":64.162,"body":"Marty Cagan came out that we wanted"},{"startTime":61.082,"endTime":64.162,"body":"to have a podcast on it and I was"},{"startTime":64.162,"endTime":68.742,"body":"ready the week it came and I held off"},{"startTime":64.162,"endTime":68.742,"body":"because I wanted all of the fervor,"},{"startTime":68.772,"endTime":70.463,"body":"the initial Marketing and whatever."},{"startTime":70.473,"endTime":72.233,"body":"I wanted that to die"},{"startTime":70.473,"endTime":72.233,"body":"down for a little bit."},{"startTime":72.383,"endTime":76.223,"body":"I wanted to read the book at least twice"},{"startTime":72.383,"endTime":76.223,"body":"before I talked about it because my"},{"startTime":76.223,"endTime":81.093,"body":"initial cynical take before I even read"},{"startTime":76.223,"endTime":81.093,"body":"the book, I didn't want that to cloud what"},{"startTime":81.093,"endTime":83.203,"body":"I was going to talk about in the podcast."},{"startTime":83.353,"endTime":88.233,"body":"Because my original super cynical"},{"startTime":83.353,"endTime":88.233,"body":"take was this is just all the agile"},{"startTime":88.243,"endTime":90.213,"body":"transformation stuff, different terms."},{"startTime":90.363,"endTime":91.263,"body":"You know, I agree."},{"startTime":91.413,"endTime":91.643,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":91.693,"endTime":93.733,"body":"And I didn't want that to be the,"},{"startTime":91.693,"endTime":93.733,"body":"because that would be the part."},{"startTime":93.743,"endTime":95.543,"body":"I'd be  well, thanks for"},{"startTime":93.743,"endTime":95.543,"body":"listening to the podcast."},{"startTime":95.633,"endTime":96.463,"body":"Like a subscribe."},{"startTime":96.473,"endTime":97.553,"body":"And  that would be the, that'd be it."},{"startTime":97.573,"endTime":98.383,"body":"We'd be done in."},{"startTime":98.553,"endTime":102.523,"body":"When I started seeing all the marketing"},{"startTime":98.553,"endTime":102.523,"body":"and all of the initial feedback from"},{"startTime":102.573,"endTime":105.733,"body":"Twitterverse and LinkedIn, et cetera,"},{"startTime":102.573,"endTime":105.733,"body":"there were some people who were upset"},{"startTime":105.743,"endTime":106.683,"body":"and I was  Oh, what's in the book?"},{"startTime":106.683,"endTime":109.073,"body":"I really, felt like there were"},{"startTime":106.683,"endTime":109.073,"body":"some people who were really taken"},{"startTime":109.073,"endTime":110.173,"body":"aback by what was published."},{"startTime":110.173,"endTime":112.573,"body":"So I couldn't wait to get into it myself."},{"startTime":112.573,"endTime":116.432,"body":"But as I read it, I didn't feel"},{"startTime":112.573,"endTime":116.432,"body":"like I left with a new insight."},{"startTime":116.562,"endTime":119.962,"body":"there were some things where I Felt"},{"startTime":116.562,"endTime":119.962,"body":"like he did a great job of clarifying"},{"startTime":119.962,"endTime":121.922,"body":"what he meant and what he thinks."},{"startTime":122.252,"endTime":126.292,"body":"But I'm not so sure the people who"},{"startTime":122.252,"endTime":126.292,"body":"were upset that this was their book."},{"startTime":126.292,"endTime":129.622,"body":"I think this book is more towards if"},{"startTime":126.292,"endTime":129.622,"body":"an organization is looking to do a"},{"startTime":129.622,"endTime":133.052,"body":"transformation, this is a great place to"},{"startTime":129.622,"endTime":133.052,"body":"start to figure out what those things are."},{"startTime":133.262,"endTime":136.072,"body":"Can I get all my cynicism out of the"},{"startTime":133.262,"endTime":136.072,"body":"way at the early part of the podcast?"},{"startTime":136.072,"endTime":137.622,"body":"I don't think you'll get"},{"startTime":136.072,"endTime":137.622,"body":"it all out, but go ahead."},{"startTime":137.772,"endTime":138.812,"body":"You'll get the majority out."},{"startTime":138.962,"endTime":139.742,"body":"I think you're right."},{"startTime":139.743,"endTime":142.863,"body":"I think if I'm an agile coach"},{"startTime":139.743,"endTime":142.863,"body":"and I'm looking to rebrand"},{"startTime":142.883,"endTime":143.813,"body":"for what's hot on the market."},{"startTime":143.963,"endTime":146.323,"body":"I think this is a great book because I"},{"startTime":143.963,"endTime":146.323,"body":"can just call myself a product coach."},{"startTime":146.513,"endTime":149.693,"body":"If you're looking to see what's going on"},{"startTime":146.513,"endTime":149.693,"body":"in business, there's quite a few podcasts"},{"startTime":149.703,"endTime":151.233,"body":"out there that are futurist focused."},{"startTime":151.383,"endTime":154.293,"body":"And I think that with this"},{"startTime":151.383,"endTime":154.293,"body":"book and many of those other."},{"startTime":154.518,"endTime":157.008,"body":"Thought leaders that are saying what"},{"startTime":154.518,"endTime":157.008,"body":"the next 7 to 10 years look like."},{"startTime":157.008,"endTime":159.618,"body":"Oh, THOT leaders, not in my book, not"},{"startTime":157.008,"endTime":159.618,"body":"unless you're Megan Thee Stallion."},{"startTime":159.618,"endTime":160.487,"body":"yeah, thought leaders."},{"startTime":160.677,"endTime":162.357,"body":"See, I figured I'd throw a"},{"startTime":160.677,"endTime":162.357,"body":"trigger out there for you."},{"startTime":162.507,"endTime":165.377,"body":"But if you're looking at what might"},{"startTime":162.507,"endTime":165.377,"body":"happen to the gig economy in a couple"},{"startTime":165.377,"endTime":166.617,"body":"years, What's that going to look like?"},{"startTime":166.767,"endTime":169.797,"body":"What is technology going to look"},{"startTime":166.767,"endTime":169.797,"body":"like as automated intelligence"},{"startTime":169.977,"endTime":171.717,"body":"starts taking over certain areas."},{"startTime":171.787,"endTime":175.657,"body":"So being able to understand product and"},{"startTime":171.787,"endTime":175.657,"body":"what product is, is going to be very"},{"startTime":175.657,"endTime":179.177,"body":"important for people who used to be"},{"startTime":175.657,"endTime":179.177,"body":"very focused on process and technology."},{"startTime":179.427,"endTime":182.057,"body":"You actually have, that's a"},{"startTime":179.427,"endTime":182.057,"body":"product and you can't just live"},{"startTime":182.057,"endTime":183.497,"body":"in process and technology, right?"},{"startTime":183.697,"endTime":187.407,"body":"Normally when we do a podcast, we kind"},{"startTime":183.697,"endTime":187.407,"body":"of go over all the things we could talk"},{"startTime":187.417,"endTime":189.257,"body":"about and sort of organize them down."},{"startTime":189.277,"endTime":192.617,"body":"If you've ever been on a podcast, like"},{"startTime":189.277,"endTime":192.617,"body":"you know that that's kind of our system."},{"startTime":192.767,"endTime":195.567,"body":"We sort of didn't do that in this"},{"startTime":192.767,"endTime":195.567,"body":"podcast because there's so many"},{"startTime":195.567,"endTime":196.657,"body":"different things in this book."},{"startTime":196.807,"endTime":201.987,"body":"But one thing that I just had hanging over"},{"startTime":196.807,"endTime":201.987,"body":"me has been if you're going to dismiss"},{"startTime":202.327,"endTime":204.977,"body":"agile coaching in its entirety, right?"},{"startTime":204.977,"endTime":208.667,"body":"And say like all these people that"},{"startTime":204.977,"endTime":208.667,"body":"are over here are  they're all trying"},{"startTime":208.667,"endTime":211.827,"body":"to sell you certs or they're trying"},{"startTime":208.667,"endTime":211.827,"body":"to do whatever, or it's heavyweight."},{"startTime":211.977,"endTime":214.587,"body":"If you're going to dismiss the"},{"startTime":211.977,"endTime":214.587,"body":"entire career field and say,"},{"startTime":214.817,"endTime":215.807,"body":"well, you don't need any of this."},{"startTime":215.897,"endTime":219.337,"body":"You just need what I outlined in my"},{"startTime":215.897,"endTime":219.337,"body":"book, even though they're not exactly"},{"startTime":219.337,"endTime":220.497,"body":"telling you how to do it anyway."},{"startTime":220.647,"endTime":225.437,"body":"Well, who takes over that responsibility"},{"startTime":220.647,"endTime":225.437,"body":"in the new order of things?"},{"startTime":225.447,"endTime":228.587,"body":"If we're all, if we're not agile"},{"startTime":225.447,"endTime":228.587,"body":"transformation anymore, forget it."},{"startTime":228.647,"endTime":229.697,"body":"Trash that model."},{"startTime":229.717,"endTime":231.667,"body":"We're product operating model now."},{"startTime":231.747,"endTime":233.397,"body":"Like we're going to find and replace."},{"startTime":233.547,"endTime":234.597,"body":"Who does that now?"},{"startTime":234.747,"endTime":239.797,"body":"So he, in the book, he calls out product"},{"startTime":234.747,"endTime":239.797,"body":"leaders do that now in the product"},{"startTime":239.797,"endTime":241.407,"body":"operating, well, he still has coaches."},{"startTime":241.437,"endTime":242.867,"body":"He has product coaches, right?"},{"startTime":242.867,"endTime":245.627,"body":"so I questioned, if agile"},{"startTime":242.867,"endTime":245.627,"body":"coaches were also just renamed."},{"startTime":245.777,"endTime":247.437,"body":"You have to go there as well."},{"startTime":247.497,"endTime":247.777,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":247.777,"endTime":250.627,"body":"So he does say that, but he kind"},{"startTime":247.777,"endTime":250.627,"body":"of leaves that as an option."},{"startTime":250.957,"endTime":254.297,"body":"He says, you either have people"},{"startTime":250.957,"endTime":254.297,"body":"that know product and have a product"},{"startTime":254.317,"endTime":256.337,"body":"mindset in your company, bring them in."},{"startTime":256.487,"endTime":260.417,"body":"Or if you can't find those, then bring"},{"startTime":256.487,"endTime":260.417,"body":"in a product coach to help you with it."},{"startTime":260.527,"endTime":262.557,"body":"I just figured out what"},{"startTime":260.527,"endTime":262.557,"body":"this podcast is going to be."},{"startTime":262.887,"endTime":264.437,"body":"This is going to be the"},{"startTime":262.887,"endTime":264.437,"body":"product leaders podcast."},{"startTime":264.437,"endTime":267.247,"body":"There are two roads we can walk"},{"startTime":264.437,"endTime":267.247,"body":"down right now, which is what"},{"startTime":267.247,"endTime":268.547,"body":"happened to all the agile coaches."},{"startTime":268.697,"endTime":272.337,"body":"And the other road is, if the people"},{"startTime":268.697,"endTime":272.337,"body":"that you get that do the coaching"},{"startTime":272.347,"endTime":276.107,"body":"in the future are all product"},{"startTime":272.347,"endTime":276.107,"body":"coaches, where did they come from?"},{"startTime":276.177,"endTime":279.757,"body":"He names the Magnificent Seven in"},{"startTime":276.177,"endTime":279.757,"body":"his book, other than that, who knows?"},{"startTime":279.907,"endTime":282.567,"body":"I mean, they probably will have"},{"startTime":279.907,"endTime":282.567,"body":"an expanded list in the future and"},{"startTime":282.567,"endTime":284.537,"body":"they'll keep it on their website"},{"startTime":282.567,"endTime":284.537,"body":"or something like that Yeah."},{"startTime":284.577,"endTime":285.447,"body":"Fabulous 20."},{"startTime":285.477,"endTime":285.887,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":286.037,"endTime":286.577,"body":"But yeah."},{"startTime":286.577,"endTime":288.377,"body":"what does happen to all the Agile coaches?"},{"startTime":288.417,"endTime":290.327,"body":"Do they not have the skill?"},{"startTime":290.357,"endTime":291.337,"body":"they would probably pivot."},{"startTime":291.557,"endTime":294.557,"body":"I mean, what happens to the agile"},{"startTime":291.557,"endTime":294.557,"body":"coaches up to the agile coach, right?"},{"startTime":294.557,"endTime":295.377,"body":"Where do they want to go?"},{"startTime":295.377,"endTime":296.497,"body":"Do they want to go into product?"},{"startTime":296.497,"endTime":298.187,"body":"Do they have the product mindset, right?"},{"startTime":298.207,"endTime":301.527,"body":"There are agile coaches out there"},{"startTime":298.207,"endTime":301.527,"body":"that may not have the skillset to"},{"startTime":301.527,"endTime":303.227,"body":"actually coach at that level, right?"},{"startTime":303.237,"endTime":305.242,"body":"So when you think of coaching,"},{"startTime":303.237,"endTime":305.242,"body":"you have a high skill level."},{"startTime":305.242,"endTime":308.062,"body":"You have high school coaches,"},{"startTime":305.242,"endTime":308.062,"body":"college coaches, NFL coaches, right?"},{"startTime":308.062,"endTime":310.682,"body":"So you have a skill levels of"},{"startTime":308.062,"endTime":310.682,"body":"what level you can coach at."},{"startTime":310.722,"endTime":314.962,"body":"And so we may find that there's"},{"startTime":310.722,"endTime":314.962,"body":"a focus on product based on the"},{"startTime":314.982,"endTime":317.622,"body":"industry based on the skill set."},{"startTime":317.772,"endTime":321.432,"body":"And so we may find some isolated"},{"startTime":317.772,"endTime":321.432,"body":"opportunities where the coaches come"},{"startTime":321.432,"endTime":323.062,"body":"in and help the product leaders, right?"},{"startTime":323.062,"endTime":326.362,"body":"So do you have a design coach somewhere"},{"startTime":323.062,"endTime":326.362,"body":"along the way, product designer?"},{"startTime":326.667,"endTime":329.337,"body":"May also need a coach, so"},{"startTime":326.667,"endTime":329.337,"body":"there's opportunity there"},{"startTime":329.337,"endTime":330.317,"body":"if you're design focused."},{"startTime":330.497,"endTime":334.397,"body":"I think that the opportunity is"},{"startTime":330.497,"endTime":334.397,"body":"there for them to pivot their career,"},{"startTime":334.397,"endTime":337.187,"body":"but it's up to them on what they"},{"startTime":334.397,"endTime":337.187,"body":"do, but there's going to be a need."},{"startTime":337.247,"endTime":339.307,"body":"His definition of product leaders."},{"startTime":339.347,"endTime":342.897,"body":"I don't know if you have it, but his"},{"startTime":339.347,"endTime":342.897,"body":"definition of product leaders are, they're"},{"startTime":342.897,"endTime":345.687,"body":"the ones who hire the, that, that segment."},{"startTime":345.687,"endTime":349.832,"body":"He's broken up the categories"},{"startTime":345.687,"endTime":349.832,"body":"by product managers."},{"startTime":349.982,"endTime":351.972,"body":"Designers and engineering."},{"startTime":352.122,"endTime":355.342,"body":"The product manager is in"},{"startTime":352.122,"endTime":355.342,"body":"charge of value and viability."},{"startTime":355.542,"endTime":357.552,"body":"The designer is in charge of usability."},{"startTime":357.702,"endTime":360.232,"body":"And feasibility is up to development."},{"startTime":360.382,"endTime":363.782,"body":"Each of those has a person"},{"startTime":360.382,"endTime":363.782,"body":"who hires for those roles."},{"startTime":363.812,"endTime":367.272,"body":"That person is designated as the"},{"startTime":363.812,"endTime":367.272,"body":"product leader, for that segment."},{"startTime":367.332,"endTime":370.732,"body":"But now We're designating the product"},{"startTime":367.332,"endTime":370.732,"body":"leaders are now in the segments of"},{"startTime":370.742,"endTime":372.772,"body":"their, I guess their sub segments,"},{"startTime":372.812,"endTime":375.572,"body":"the key thing that, that was, that"},{"startTime":372.812,"endTime":375.572,"body":"We don't want to gloss over is"},{"startTime":375.572,"endTime":381.512,"body":"the fact that the tech lead is in"},{"startTime":375.572,"endTime":381.512,"body":"the product leader group, right?"},{"startTime":381.562,"endTime":386.072,"body":"And so how many organizations have you"},{"startTime":381.562,"endTime":386.072,"body":"been involved with where the tech lead?"},{"startTime":386.222,"endTime":390.742,"body":"Cared which is also another quote in the"},{"startTime":386.222,"endTime":390.742,"body":"book tech lead has to care much care as"},{"startTime":390.742,"endTime":394.382,"body":"much about the product That's being built"},{"startTime":390.742,"endTime":394.382,"body":"as much as how they're building it but"},{"startTime":394.422,"endTime":398.002,"body":"what's your experience with the tech leads"},{"startTime":394.422,"endTime":398.002,"body":"actually falling into a product mindset?"},{"startTime":398.202,"endTime":399.442,"body":"In the original inspired book."},{"startTime":399.582,"endTime":402.022,"body":"He didn't make this designation"},{"startTime":399.582,"endTime":402.022,"body":"about the tech lead."},{"startTime":402.192,"endTime":404.912,"body":"like all developers are"},{"startTime":402.192,"endTime":404.912,"body":"just the developer, right?"},{"startTime":404.922,"endTime":408.352,"body":"so the feasibility was assigned to"},{"startTime":404.922,"endTime":408.352,"body":"development to tell you whether they"},{"startTime":408.352,"endTime":409.347,"body":"could build things with the current team."},{"startTime":409.347,"endTime":411.607,"body":"skills we have, the current"},{"startTime":409.347,"endTime":411.607,"body":"technology that we have and whatnot."},{"startTime":411.757,"endTime":415.677,"body":"And this book, it's kind of been"},{"startTime":411.757,"endTime":415.677,"body":"refined to well, you need this special"},{"startTime":415.677,"endTime":418.467,"body":"designation on a developer of tech lead."},{"startTime":418.807,"endTime":422.287,"body":"Who's basically like your senior"},{"startTime":418.807,"endTime":422.287,"body":"kind of, I don't necessarily"},{"startTime":422.287,"endTime":423.807,"body":"like that designation as much."},{"startTime":423.867,"endTime":426.927,"body":"Because it seems like number one, it"},{"startTime":423.867,"endTime":426.927,"body":"seems like you're creating a new role."},{"startTime":426.927,"endTime":430.357,"body":"We don't necessarily need one, but number"},{"startTime":426.927,"endTime":430.357,"body":"two, it seems  oh, I can take this tech"},{"startTime":430.387,"endTime":432.137,"body":"lead and they can do this special job."},{"startTime":432.137,"endTime":436.427,"body":"And then leave all the developers"},{"startTime":432.137,"endTime":436.427,"body":"over here to quote, do the coding,"},{"startTime":436.577,"endTime":438.547,"body":"do the real work of coding."},{"startTime":438.717,"endTime":442.257,"body":"But I think he's still saying the entire"},{"startTime":438.717,"endTime":442.257,"body":"engineering team has, so I want to"},{"startTime":442.257,"endTime":446.487,"body":"make sure, no, he said in one of his"},{"startTime":442.257,"endTime":446.487,"body":"sideboards, he says, We prefer the whole"},{"startTime":446.487,"endTime":448.347,"body":"engineering team to be involved in it."},{"startTime":448.497,"endTime":450.737,"body":"So there's a transition that"},{"startTime":448.497,"endTime":450.737,"body":"the engineering teams are going"},{"startTime":450.737,"endTime":452.127,"body":"to have to go through as well."},{"startTime":452.437,"endTime":456.697,"body":"And I've actually been challenged on this"},{"startTime":452.437,"endTime":456.697,"body":"because when I do technical interviews,"},{"startTime":456.697,"endTime":462.107,"body":"conversations, and describe my process of"},{"startTime":456.697,"endTime":462.107,"body":"how we execute and deliver I tend to get"},{"startTime":462.117,"endTime":463.487,"body":"the, well, you're not technical enough."},{"startTime":463.637,"endTime":464.927,"body":"I believe I'm still technical."},{"startTime":464.927,"endTime":467.632,"body":"I can still pair a program"},{"startTime":464.927,"endTime":467.632,"body":"with the development team."},{"startTime":467.632,"endTime":470.482,"body":"I can still draw on the whiteboard"},{"startTime":467.632,"endTime":470.482,"body":"and architect a solution."},{"startTime":470.482,"endTime":474.082,"body":"So I still feel I'm technical"},{"startTime":470.482,"endTime":474.082,"body":"enough, but I use product,"},{"startTime":474.262,"endTime":476.152,"body":"grammar, product terminology."},{"startTime":476.302,"endTime":480.082,"body":"The thing that I'm developing, the"},{"startTime":476.302,"endTime":480.082,"body":"thing that I'm delivering is a product."},{"startTime":480.142,"endTime":483.337,"body":"I take pride in the work I do"},{"startTime":480.142,"endTime":483.337,"body":"and the way it's perceived,"},{"startTime":483.517,"endTime":485.827,"body":"because I see it as a product."},{"startTime":486.127,"endTime":490.297,"body":"And so I think that developers and"},{"startTime":486.127,"endTime":490.297,"body":"engineers need to start realizing"},{"startTime":490.302,"endTime":494.617,"body":"that, that their day to day is their"},{"startTime":490.302,"endTime":494.617,"body":"product and is it represents them."},{"startTime":494.827,"endTime":497.017,"body":"And as we move on into"},{"startTime":494.827,"endTime":497.017,"body":"this future economy."},{"startTime":497.167,"endTime":501.307,"body":"The thing that you do is important on"},{"startTime":497.167,"endTime":501.307,"body":"how it's delivered, what it looks like."},{"startTime":501.337,"endTime":504.567,"body":"You don't just get to sit in a desk"},{"startTime":501.337,"endTime":504.567,"body":"and trade time for money anymore."},{"startTime":504.597,"endTime":505.347,"body":"It's changing."},{"startTime":505.447,"endTime":509.497,"body":"The developer has to care about they can't"},{"startTime":505.447,"endTime":509.497,"body":"just care about how we're solutioning"},{"startTime":509.497,"endTime":512.507,"body":"something they need to care about"},{"startTime":509.497,"endTime":512.507,"body":"what it is, why we're doing something."},{"startTime":512.807,"endTime":515.977,"body":"I don't know exactly the terminology"},{"startTime":512.807,"endTime":515.977,"body":"he uses, but that was on page 67."},{"startTime":516.127,"endTime":518.537,"body":"Let me, let me flip it just to"},{"startTime":516.127,"endTime":518.537,"body":"see what kind of terminology."},{"startTime":518.567,"endTime":522.457,"body":"there was two quotes, 67 and"},{"startTime":518.567,"endTime":522.457,"body":"68 says that's only true if the"},{"startTime":522.457,"endTime":528.187,"body":"engineers care as much about what"},{"startTime":522.457,"endTime":528.187,"body":"they build as how they build it."},{"startTime":528.337,"endTime":534.507,"body":"And the next quote on 68 is, if the tech"},{"startTime":528.337,"endTime":534.507,"body":"lead is unable or unwilling to engage"},{"startTime":534.507,"endTime":539.357,"body":"in product discovery, Then you are very"},{"startTime":534.507,"endTime":539.357,"body":"likely guaranteeing that the eventual"},{"startTime":539.357,"endTime":541.457,"body":"product will not achieve your goals."},{"startTime":541.607,"endTime":544.387,"body":"How many tech people do not want"},{"startTime":541.607,"endTime":544.387,"body":"to be in You go to those meetings."},{"startTime":544.387,"endTime":545.127,"body":"I don't want to go there."},{"startTime":545.137,"endTime":546.017,"body":"I don't want to talk about it."},{"startTime":546.017,"endTime":546.877,"body":"Just tell me what you want me to do."},{"startTime":546.877,"endTime":547.897,"body":"I'm just an order taker."},{"startTime":548.047,"endTime":548.787,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":548.797,"endTime":550.257,"body":"They have to be part of Discovery."},{"startTime":550.277,"endTime":550.497,"body":"They do."},{"startTime":550.497,"endTime":550.937,"body":"They do."},{"startTime":551.087,"endTime":553.647,"body":"But again, go back to the"},{"startTime":551.087,"endTime":553.647,"body":"question you asked earlier."},{"startTime":553.707,"endTime":557.907,"body":"How many organizations have you been in"},{"startTime":553.707,"endTime":557.907,"body":"where Your technical folks are actually"},{"startTime":557.907,"endTime":562.367,"body":"speaking to customers to understand"},{"startTime":557.907,"endTime":562.367,"body":"not only the what, but also the why,"},{"startTime":562.517,"endTime":563.867,"body":"and that's the missing piece here."},{"startTime":564.017,"endTime":566.917,"body":"So what he's saying, his"},{"startTime":564.017,"endTime":566.917,"body":"thesis is, I believe, correct."},{"startTime":566.937,"endTime":569.827,"body":"It's just the reality leaves"},{"startTime":566.937,"endTime":569.827,"body":"a big gap there, right?"},{"startTime":569.977,"endTime":573.337,"body":"And I guess that might be the challenge"},{"startTime":569.977,"endTime":573.337,"body":"for organizations to get there, if"},{"startTime":573.337,"endTime":574.697,"body":"they're going to go down this path."},{"startTime":574.847,"endTime":578.557,"body":"So those agile coaches that are"},{"startTime":574.847,"endTime":578.557,"body":"coaching at a level above just the"},{"startTime":578.557,"endTime":582.727,"body":"teams, they may be able to make the"},{"startTime":578.557,"endTime":582.727,"body":"pivot easier than people that are just"},{"startTime":582.807,"endTime":585.077,"body":"process coaches, right, on the teams."},{"startTime":585.227,"endTime":587.197,"body":"Because they don't have a"},{"startTime":585.227,"endTime":587.197,"body":"product mindset necessarily."},{"startTime":587.527,"endTime":590.027,"body":"Of course, there are exceptions,"},{"startTime":587.527,"endTime":590.027,"body":"but that's my take on it."},{"startTime":590.707,"endTime":593.817,"body":"Om, you mentioned people at the team"},{"startTime":590.707,"endTime":593.817,"body":"level  okay, well like the most dangerous"},{"startTime":593.847,"endTime":597.377,"body":"agile coach is the people that can"},{"startTime":593.847,"endTime":597.377,"body":"stretch above the team level, but they"},{"startTime":597.377,"endTime":600.917,"body":"haven't quite figured out how to stretch"},{"startTime":597.377,"endTime":600.917,"body":"like across to the enterprise level yet."},{"startTime":601.117,"endTime":603.437,"body":"They can do a little damage in that"},{"startTime":601.117,"endTime":603.437,"body":"little corner of the organization."},{"startTime":603.447,"endTime":604.887,"body":"Do developers have coaches?"},{"startTime":605.167,"endTime":607.487,"body":"Is there a model where a"},{"startTime":605.167,"endTime":607.487,"body":"developer gets a coach, right?"},{"startTime":607.487,"endTime":611.207,"body":"When is the organization going"},{"startTime":607.487,"endTime":611.207,"body":"to invest in that style coach?"},{"startTime":611.522,"endTime":613.522,"body":"That's supposed to be your team"},{"startTime":611.522,"endTime":613.522,"body":"lead, but your team leader is"},{"startTime":613.522,"endTime":615.272,"body":"assigned so many other things to do."},{"startTime":615.422,"endTime":617.382,"body":"Where does that developer coach come from?"},{"startTime":617.382,"endTime":618.692,"body":"Where, where's that time allotted?"},{"startTime":618.972,"endTime":623.442,"body":"Well, Ed, I'm glad you went there"},{"startTime":618.972,"endTime":623.442,"body":"because let's take a break and"},{"startTime":623.442,"endTime":626.362,"body":"talk about the product leader"},{"startTime":623.442,"endTime":626.362,"body":"designation that this book makes."},{"startTime":626.362,"endTime":628.682,"body":"Now, everyone, it used to"},{"startTime":626.362,"endTime":628.682,"body":"be just product managers."},{"startTime":628.952,"endTime":631.842,"body":"It used to be just product managers"},{"startTime":628.952,"endTime":631.842,"body":"that hired other product managers."},{"startTime":632.002,"endTime":633.082,"body":"You were product leaders."},{"startTime":633.352,"endTime":634.862,"body":"Now everyone's a product leader."},{"startTime":634.982,"endTime":637.012,"body":"Everybody is a product leader now, Ed."},{"startTime":637.022,"endTime":637.722,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":638.067,"endTime":639.877,"body":"And in the world where"},{"startTime":638.067,"endTime":639.877,"body":"everyone's a product leader,"},{"startTime":640.127,"endTime":641.837,"body":"nobody is part of your job."},{"startTime":641.857,"endTime":646.467,"body":"And he says this in the book, part"},{"startTime":641.857,"endTime":646.467,"body":"of your job as a product leader in a"},{"startTime":646.467,"endTime":648.777,"body":"new style organization is coaching."},{"startTime":648.927,"endTime":653.317,"body":"It is actually a big part of your"},{"startTime":648.927,"endTime":653.317,"body":"job And the people that do the hiring"},{"startTime":653.467,"endTime":657.187,"body":"in this new organization where we're"},{"startTime":653.467,"endTime":657.187,"body":"all product leaders said those people"},{"startTime":657.337,"endTime":659.247,"body":"have skill in their particular area."},{"startTime":659.397,"endTime":662.337,"body":"So I, I am an expert in product discovery."},{"startTime":662.617,"endTime":663.757,"body":"I've come up through my career."},{"startTime":663.787,"endTime":667.447,"body":"Now I'm in, I'm in some sort of position"},{"startTime":663.787,"endTime":667.447,"body":"where I can hire product managers."},{"startTime":667.597,"endTime":672.387,"body":"So I'm going to find and hire"},{"startTime":667.597,"endTime":672.387,"body":"and train and coach that person."},{"startTime":672.587,"endTime":673.927,"body":"I'm going to mentor you."},{"startTime":674.077,"endTime":677.337,"body":"I'm going to coach you, whatever"},{"startTime":674.077,"endTime":677.337,"body":"it is, but I have this skill."},{"startTime":677.657,"endTime":679.177,"body":"I'm an expert developer."},{"startTime":679.367,"endTime":681.107,"body":"I'm going to try to"},{"startTime":679.367,"endTime":681.107,"body":"transfer some of that skill."},{"startTime":681.257,"endTime":682.212,"body":"Same thing with designer."},{"startTime":682.462,"endTime":682.742,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":682.862,"endTime":683.212,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":683.562,"endTime":686.242,"body":"Here's my core disagreement"},{"startTime":683.562,"endTime":686.242,"body":"with this whole book."},{"startTime":686.392,"endTime":686.712,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":686.772,"endTime":688.732,"body":"I'm throwing it out on you right now."},{"startTime":688.732,"endTime":694.282,"body":"I did not share this in the prep for this"},{"startTime":688.732,"endTime":694.282,"body":"podcast because my experience is most"},{"startTime":694.282,"endTime":699.322,"body":"of the people in those roles, meaning"},{"startTime":694.282,"endTime":699.322,"body":"hiring managers for dot, dot, dot, fill"},{"startTime":699.322,"endTime":703.032,"body":"in the dot let's take the tech lead"},{"startTime":699.322,"endTime":703.032,"body":"out of this and discuss that by itself."},{"startTime":703.052,"endTime":703.302,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":703.452,"endTime":708.402,"body":"But most of the people that hire chief"},{"startTime":703.452,"endTime":708.402,"body":"product officer, VP of product, most of"},{"startTime":708.402,"endTime":709.622,"body":"those people don't come from product."},{"startTime":709.772,"endTime":710.992,"body":"They can't do discovery work."},{"startTime":711.142,"endTime":713.052,"body":"They never been a product"},{"startTime":711.142,"endTime":713.052,"body":"manager in their life."},{"startTime":713.252,"endTime":716.192,"body":"Most of the people that at the top"},{"startTime":713.252,"endTime":716.192,"body":"levels of product, they came from"},{"startTime":716.192,"endTime":718.532,"body":"sales or marketing or something else."},{"startTime":718.572,"endTime":719.622,"body":"They didn't come from product."},{"startTime":719.902,"endTime":722.922,"body":"He does say in the book, he"},{"startTime":719.902,"endTime":722.922,"body":"does like to give him credit."},{"startTime":723.032,"endTime":725.467,"body":"He does say in the book, if that"},{"startTime":723.032,"endTime":725.467,"body":"person doesn't have those experiences,"},{"startTime":725.467,"endTime":729.237,"body":"Then you need to look for an external"},{"startTime":725.467,"endTime":729.237,"body":"coach, bring a product coach in."},{"startTime":729.367,"endTime":730.647,"body":"So how can I square that?"},{"startTime":730.657,"endTime":733.477,"body":"How can I square the reality of"},{"startTime":730.657,"endTime":733.477,"body":"what I've seen with the shining"},{"startTime":733.477,"endTime":734.697,"body":"example that he's telling me?"},{"startTime":734.862,"endTime":736.782,"body":"So I'm gonna answer that"},{"startTime":734.862,"endTime":736.782,"body":"with another quote because he"},{"startTime":736.782,"endTime":737.622,"body":"talks about product leaders."},{"startTime":737.622,"endTime":742.022,"body":"He quotes Andy Grove legendary"},{"startTime":737.622,"endTime":742.022,"body":"CEO of Intel the quote is what"},{"startTime":742.022,"endTime":743.432,"body":"gets in the way of good work."},{"startTime":743.472,"endTime":744.962,"body":"There are only two possibilities."},{"startTime":744.972,"endTime":747.252,"body":"First is that people don't"},{"startTime":744.972,"endTime":747.252,"body":"know how to do good work."},{"startTime":747.282,"endTime":751.322,"body":"And second is that they know"},{"startTime":747.282,"endTime":751.322,"body":"how they just weren't motivated."},{"startTime":751.472,"endTime":754.262,"body":"Well, I would argue in today's"},{"startTime":751.472,"endTime":754.262,"body":"workforce, there's a third and there's"},{"startTime":754.262,"endTime":756.162,"body":"just no freaking time to do good work."},{"startTime":756.262,"endTime":758.182,"body":"But I'm going to say in today's"},{"startTime":756.262,"endTime":758.182,"body":"workforce, what gets in the"},{"startTime":758.182,"endTime":759.512,"body":"way of good work right now."},{"startTime":759.712,"endTime":762.602,"body":"So when we, you're talking about coaching"},{"startTime":759.712,"endTime":762.602,"body":"is the reason I transitioned that quote."},{"startTime":762.612,"endTime":766.282,"body":"very few people actually have the"},{"startTime":762.612,"endTime":766.282,"body":"time to coach and train and teach"},{"startTime":766.292,"endTime":768.062,"body":"and develop their staff anymore."},{"startTime":768.312,"endTime":771.152,"body":"So when he goes in here, he talks"},{"startTime":768.312,"endTime":771.152,"body":"about the 1 1 12 model, where"},{"startTime":771.152,"endTime":775.402,"body":"there's one product manager, one"},{"startTime":771.152,"endTime":775.402,"body":"product designer to 12 engineers."},{"startTime":775.532,"endTime":779.072,"body":"If I remember, that's the actual team"},{"startTime":775.532,"endTime":779.072,"body":"size he recommended as being the max."},{"startTime":779.362,"endTime":784.272,"body":"In a 1 1 12 model the coaching is"},{"startTime":779.362,"endTime":784.272,"body":"challenging when at the levels that"},{"startTime":784.272,"endTime":785.632,"body":"are people are trying to work today."},{"startTime":785.922,"endTime":790.382,"body":"There's too much thrown at product,"},{"startTime":785.922,"endTime":790.382,"body":"project, in the current models"},{"startTime":790.692,"endTime":794.262,"body":"that when you try to transfer that"},{"startTime":790.692,"endTime":794.262,"body":"into this new way of working, that"},{"startTime":794.262,"endTime":795.532,"body":"work doesn't go anywhere else."},{"startTime":795.542,"endTime":799.812,"body":"Most product managers are managing"},{"startTime":795.542,"endTime":799.812,"body":"multiple lines in many organizations."},{"startTime":799.962,"endTime":803.772,"body":"to compound that, going back to"},{"startTime":799.962,"endTime":803.772,"body":"the role of the product leader,"},{"startTime":803.922,"endTime":808.252,"body":"he's saying that they are also"},{"startTime":803.922,"endTime":808.252,"body":"accountable for product strategy"},{"startTime":808.402,"endTime":812.132,"body":"across the board, not just individual"},{"startTime":808.402,"endTime":812.132,"body":"products, right, across the board."},{"startTime":812.282,"endTime":814.352,"body":"He says you can't have a"},{"startTime":812.282,"endTime":814.352,"body":"different strategy for every"},{"startTime":814.352,"endTime":815.772,"body":"product team in the organization."},{"startTime":815.922,"endTime":818.522,"body":"So that's part of what they're"},{"startTime":815.922,"endTime":818.522,"body":"supposed to do, in addition"},{"startTime":818.522,"endTime":819.642,"body":"to the coaching you mentioned."},{"startTime":819.792,"endTime":823.022,"body":"On top of that, he also says,"},{"startTime":819.792,"endTime":823.022,"body":"product leadership gets involved"},{"startTime":823.022,"endTime":824.372,"body":"with defining team topology."},{"startTime":824.522,"endTime":825.892,"body":"How will teams be organized?"},{"startTime":825.962,"endTime":826.642,"body":"He says that."},{"startTime":826.712,"endTime":828.832,"body":"And then thirdly, the"},{"startTime":826.712,"endTime":828.832,"body":"coaching piece, right?"},{"startTime":829.052,"endTime":832.762,"body":"So how much are you going to Burden"},{"startTime":829.052,"endTime":832.762,"body":"the product leadership with, first"},{"startTime":832.762,"endTime":837.632,"body":"of all, because that's a lot, that's"},{"startTime":832.762,"endTime":837.632,"body":"a lot for a leader, even if it's the"},{"startTime":837.632,"endTime":842.002,"body":"one, one 12 model or whatever, that's"},{"startTime":837.632,"endTime":842.002,"body":"a lot of work for a person to be doing."},{"startTime":842.172,"endTime":842.422,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":842.462,"endTime":845.212,"body":"The background, et cetera,"},{"startTime":842.462,"endTime":845.212,"body":"all the skills, the coaching,"},{"startTime":845.472,"endTime":846.932,"body":"the team skills and so forth."},{"startTime":847.082,"endTime":848.682,"body":"How do you find these unicorns?"},{"startTime":848.702,"endTime":849.542,"body":"Where do you find them?"},{"startTime":849.692,"endTime":850.662,"body":"They must exist."},{"startTime":850.812,"endTime":852.052,"body":"Either they exist or you got it."},{"startTime":852.082,"endTime":853.372,"body":"Like you said, you got to go out."},{"startTime":853.432,"endTime":856.642,"body":"Side and rent some expertise in, or they"},{"startTime":853.432,"endTime":856.642,"body":"get developed over the next eight years."},{"startTime":856.642,"endTime":860.357,"body":"At some point there's this, this"},{"startTime":856.642,"endTime":860.357,"body":"isn't necessarily a book for now."},{"startTime":860.417,"endTime":861.677,"body":"This is a book for how do you get there?"},{"startTime":861.727,"endTime":865.207,"body":"it is about transforming, so I don't"},{"startTime":861.727,"endTime":865.207,"body":"wanna completely kick it to the curb."},{"startTime":865.207,"endTime":867.782,"body":"I did enjoy the read, I"},{"startTime":865.207,"endTime":867.782,"body":"did enjoy the context."},{"startTime":867.782,"endTime":868.972,"body":"I got lots of highlights."},{"startTime":869.002,"endTime":870.262,"body":"it will be a reference book."},{"startTime":870.412,"endTime":873.522,"body":"So there, there is that going,"},{"startTime":870.412,"endTime":873.522,"body":"there's a certain part of it"},{"startTime":873.522,"endTime":874.392,"body":"that I just look at right now."},{"startTime":874.422,"endTime":878.792,"body":"I don't know how, while we're"},{"startTime":874.422,"endTime":878.792,"body":"transforming, how do we transition"},{"startTime":878.942,"endTime":883.202,"body":"the current model it's, it's not with,"},{"startTime":878.942,"endTime":883.202,"body":"without leadership being on board."},{"startTime":883.352,"endTime":886.592,"body":"Because when you talk about the tech"},{"startTime":883.352,"endTime":886.592,"body":"lead and you talk about technology"},{"startTime":886.592,"endTime":890.612,"body":"leadership, if they don't grow up"},{"startTime":886.592,"endTime":890.612,"body":"with a product mindset, they're"},{"startTime":890.622,"endTime":893.162,"body":"not going to buy into this because"},{"startTime":890.622,"endTime":893.162,"body":"they think it's smoke and mirrors."},{"startTime":893.162,"endTime":893.772,"body":"They don't get it."},{"startTime":893.972,"endTime":895.022,"body":"just do the work."},{"startTime":895.172,"endTime":899.072,"body":"And so how do you transition"},{"startTime":895.172,"endTime":899.072,"body":"the decision makers mindsets?"},{"startTime":899.222,"endTime":901.342,"body":"To support the overall goal."},{"startTime":901.492,"endTime":902.702,"body":"This is not the book for that."},{"startTime":902.752,"endTime":905.592,"body":"Yeah, this is the book for what"},{"startTime":902.752,"endTime":905.592,"body":"does the ideal state look like?"},{"startTime":905.672,"endTime":909.282,"body":"So you can hold it up to say,"},{"startTime":905.672,"endTime":909.282,"body":"Hey, we don't look like this."},{"startTime":909.342,"endTime":910.432,"body":"let me figure out a way."},{"startTime":910.472,"endTime":911.702,"body":"Let me chart a path or whatever."},{"startTime":911.852,"endTime":915.242,"body":"You know, after you've changed your title"},{"startTime":911.852,"endTime":915.242,"body":"from agile coach to product coach, the"},{"startTime":915.242,"endTime":918.602,"body":"cynicism shining through the point for"},{"startTime":915.242,"endTime":918.602,"body":"me is holding up the example to say."},{"startTime":918.837,"endTime":920.007,"body":"Hey, this is where we want to go."},{"startTime":920.307,"endTime":923.337,"body":"Marty Cagan has given me"},{"startTime":920.307,"endTime":923.337,"body":"the example and inspired."},{"startTime":923.337,"endTime":924.057,"body":"He gave me the example."},{"startTime":924.057,"endTime":926.167,"body":"This is what product"},{"startTime":924.057,"endTime":926.167,"body":"discovery should look like."},{"startTime":926.167,"endTime":926.987,"body":"We need to get here."},{"startTime":927.137,"endTime":928.917,"body":"this is what a durable"},{"startTime":927.137,"endTime":928.917,"body":"product team looks like."},{"startTime":929.087,"endTime":931.117,"body":"We can't have people come in and"},{"startTime":929.087,"endTime":931.117,"body":"out of our team all the time."},{"startTime":931.117,"endTime":931.917,"body":"We need to get here."},{"startTime":932.067,"endTime":935.627,"body":"That's fine, but he's not giving"},{"startTime":932.067,"endTime":935.627,"body":"you a path of how to get there."},{"startTime":935.697,"endTime":937.407,"body":"He's just showing you"},{"startTime":935.697,"endTime":937.407,"body":"what the ideal looks like."},{"startTime":937.597,"endTime":940.618,"body":"So I guess leading from example"},{"startTime":937.597,"endTime":940.618,"body":"is, it is a method, right,"},{"startTime":940.638,"endTime":941.788,"body":"in one way, shape, or form."},{"startTime":942.038,"endTime":946.048,"body":"but again, where I started with this"},{"startTime":942.038,"endTime":946.048,"body":"book before I read it, was I expected"},{"startTime":946.048,"endTime":949.378,"body":"it to be a rehash of everything I"},{"startTime":946.048,"endTime":949.378,"body":"learned while I was thinking that"},{"startTime":949.378,"endTime":950.498,"body":"I wanted to be an agile coach."},{"startTime":950.648,"endTime":953.118,"body":"But back in the dark ages,"},{"startTime":950.648,"endTime":953.118,"body":"that's right in the dark times"},{"startTime":953.318,"endTime":954.628,"body":"before the Sith or whatever."},{"startTime":954.698,"endTime":958.118,"body":"So, the challenge for me is on the"},{"startTime":954.698,"endTime":958.118,"body":"cover though, it says how to, right?"},{"startTime":958.268,"endTime":960.118,"body":"And that's where I bought"},{"startTime":958.268,"endTime":960.118,"body":"into the philosophies."},{"startTime":960.138,"endTime":963.658,"body":"But I also felt like a lot"},{"startTime":960.138,"endTime":963.658,"body":"of it was greenfield teams."},{"startTime":963.808,"endTime":967.268,"body":"In my mind, as I was looking through this,"},{"startTime":963.808,"endTime":967.268,"body":"a lot of it started with, it's fresh."},{"startTime":967.418,"endTime":971.558,"body":"In the ideal scenario with the"},{"startTime":967.418,"endTime":971.558,"body":"leadership in place that's supportive"},{"startTime":971.558,"endTime":975.238,"body":"with the situation that yes, we have"},{"startTime":971.558,"endTime":975.238,"body":"they're either rock bottom and they"},{"startTime":975.238,"endTime":977.768,"body":"want out or I'm 100 percent bought in."},{"startTime":977.768,"endTime":982.388,"body":"So, Paweł Huryn and Akash Gupta"},{"startTime":977.768,"endTime":982.388,"body":"did a podcast with Marty Cagan."},{"startTime":982.408,"endTime":987.418,"body":"One of their criticisms is this is too"},{"startTime":982.408,"endTime":987.418,"body":"idealistic right now and or aspirational."},{"startTime":987.478,"endTime":990.628,"body":"And 99 percent of the companies and"},{"startTime":987.478,"endTime":990.628,"body":"teams don't work in anything close to"},{"startTime":990.628,"endTime":992.808,"body":"the environment that Marty envisions."},{"startTime":992.858,"endTime":994.378,"body":"That's a quote directly from that podcast."},{"startTime":994.528,"endTime":995.408,"body":"So we to your point."},{"startTime":995.408,"endTime":995.618,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":995.618,"endTime":996.248,"body":"I mean, this is."},{"startTime":996.398,"endTime":997.308,"body":"The North Star, right?"},{"startTime":997.348,"endTime":998.408,"body":"How do you get there?"},{"startTime":998.638,"endTime":999.458,"body":"It's not clear."},{"startTime":999.608,"endTime":1003.488,"body":"It just tells you snippets, I think,"},{"startTime":999.608,"endTime":1003.488,"body":"and you've got to synthesize your own."},{"startTime":1003.658,"endTime":1007.268,"body":"there's a quote that I learned many years"},{"startTime":1003.658,"endTime":1007.268,"body":"ago that I think it's worth repeating"},{"startTime":1007.278,"endTime":1011.508,"body":"here because this quote is something"},{"startTime":1007.278,"endTime":1011.508,"body":"I find myself frequently running into,"},{"startTime":1011.538,"endTime":1015.908,"body":"and that is, a person convinced against"},{"startTime":1011.538,"endTime":1015.908,"body":"his will is of the opinion still, right?"},{"startTime":1015.958,"endTime":1019.908,"body":"so if you're trying to convince"},{"startTime":1015.958,"endTime":1019.908,"body":"a leader that we should do this"},{"startTime":1019.938,"endTime":1022.658,"body":"and it's against their will,"},{"startTime":1019.938,"endTime":1022.658,"body":"you haven't changed their mind."},{"startTime":1022.808,"endTime":1026.578,"body":"And so the mindset is the thing that's"},{"startTime":1022.808,"endTime":1026.578,"body":"the hardest for me to get past because"},{"startTime":1026.578,"endTime":1031.388,"body":"I've been in enough backroom conversations"},{"startTime":1026.578,"endTime":1031.388,"body":"that there are people I can name by name"},{"startTime":1031.518,"endTime":1032.548,"body":"that, yeah, it's not going to work there."},{"startTime":1032.598,"endTime":1038.888,"body":"So does that model, how do you make"},{"startTime":1032.598,"endTime":1038.888,"body":"those headstrong, fixed minded leaders"},{"startTime":1038.888,"endTime":1042.438,"body":"who aren't going to adopt this new"},{"startTime":1038.888,"endTime":1042.438,"body":"way of working eight years from now?"},{"startTime":1042.588,"endTime":1043.158,"body":"Where do they go?"},{"startTime":1043.168,"endTime":1044.758,"body":"So let's talk about agile coaches."},{"startTime":1044.808,"endTime":1045.678,"body":"I think they'll pivot."},{"startTime":1045.708,"endTime":1046.368,"body":"They'll figure it out."},{"startTime":1046.368,"endTime":1046.798,"body":"They'll move."},{"startTime":1046.798,"endTime":1047.878,"body":"that's in their mindset."},{"startTime":1048.218,"endTime":1048.998,"body":"It's the leadership."},{"startTime":1048.998,"endTime":1050.298,"body":"That's not in their mindset."},{"startTime":1050.368,"endTime":1051.658,"body":"companies are going to suffer."},{"startTime":1051.678,"endTime":1056.648,"body":"So I think the product coaches,"},{"startTime":1051.678,"endTime":1056.648,"body":"as we're calling them now, have"},{"startTime":1056.648,"endTime":1059.858,"body":"to catalyze the change with those"},{"startTime":1056.648,"endTime":1059.858,"body":"people that have fixed mindset."},{"startTime":1060.008,"endTime":1063.758,"body":"Unfortunately, not a lot of these product"},{"startTime":1060.008,"endTime":1063.758,"body":"coaches, whether they're rebranded"},{"startTime":1063.758,"endTime":1067.498,"body":"agile coaches or not, they've never"},{"startTime":1063.758,"endTime":1067.498,"body":"done product well anywhere, some of them"},{"startTime":1067.498,"endTime":1069.078,"body":"haven't even worked in product, period."},{"startTime":1069.228,"endTime":1069.958,"body":"And that's a problem."},{"startTime":1070.008,"endTime":1072.058,"body":"How are they going to go in and"},{"startTime":1070.008,"endTime":1072.058,"body":"influence somebody if they haven't"},{"startTime":1072.058,"endTime":1073.268,"body":"even worked in the field before?"},{"startTime":1073.418,"endTime":1076.608,"body":"The other thing is, they don't necessarily"},{"startTime":1073.418,"endTime":1076.608,"body":"believe they have the power to change."},{"startTime":1076.648,"endTime":1078.528,"body":"Something that Marty talks"},{"startTime":1076.648,"endTime":1078.528,"body":"about in the book, right?"},{"startTime":1078.528,"endTime":1079.028,"body":"Agency?"},{"startTime":1079.178,"endTime":1080.818,"body":"So I mean, that's part of it too."},{"startTime":1080.818,"endTime":1084.138,"body":"So there's lots of little things,"},{"startTime":1080.818,"endTime":1084.138,"body":"but none of them put together."},{"startTime":1084.168,"endTime":1085.728,"body":"Kind of says, here's the path forward."},{"startTime":1085.728,"endTime":1086.918,"body":"That's a used agency."},{"startTime":1086.918,"endTime":1088.728,"body":"And that's something that"},{"startTime":1086.918,"endTime":1088.728,"body":"I've, when I hear the phrase,"},{"startTime":1088.728,"endTime":1089.838,"body":"I don't have agency for that."},{"startTime":1089.918,"endTime":1090.628,"body":"I was  why not?"},{"startTime":1090.643,"endTime":1092.263,"body":"I just, that's something"},{"startTime":1090.643,"endTime":1092.263,"body":"I don't understand."},{"startTime":1092.263,"endTime":1093.823,"body":"The idea that I don't have agency."},{"startTime":1093.873,"endTime":1094.743,"body":"I take agency."},{"startTime":1094.743,"endTime":1096.003,"body":"I've worked to find it."},{"startTime":1096.008,"endTime":1097.083,"body":"You gotta seize it, right?"},{"startTime":1097.083,"endTime":1097.503,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1097.553,"endTime":1100.253,"body":"So if you don't have agency, you"},{"startTime":1097.553,"endTime":1100.253,"body":"gotta figure out why you don't"},{"startTime":1100.253,"endTime":1101.303,"body":"and what you're doing about it."},{"startTime":1101.453,"endTime":1103.673,"body":"You can't just stand in the circle"},{"startTime":1101.453,"endTime":1103.673,"body":"and say, I don't have agency."},{"startTime":1103.673,"endTime":1104.453,"body":"I can't do this."},{"startTime":1104.603,"endTime":1105.353,"body":"Figure it out."},{"startTime":1105.503,"endTime":1106.943,"body":"That's your role, that's your job."},{"startTime":1107.093,"endTime":1109.833,"body":"Before we get too far along, it"},{"startTime":1107.093,"endTime":1109.833,"body":"was, it was, it was on page 205."},{"startTime":1109.833,"endTime":1111.623,"body":"It's one, one 10, not one on 12."},{"startTime":1111.623,"endTime":1115.713,"body":"So it was it's written as one product"},{"startTime":1111.623,"endTime":1115.713,"body":"manager, one product designer, and"},{"startTime":1115.713,"endTime":1120.183,"body":"somewhere between two and 10 engineers"},{"startTime":1115.713,"endTime":1120.183,"body":"for a platform for a development team"},{"startTime":1120.283,"endTime":1123.753,"body":"experience, product team, but if it's"},{"startTime":1120.283,"endTime":1123.753,"body":"an engineering platform team, nobody,"},{"startTime":1123.913,"endTime":1125.103,"body":"nobody knows what a platform team is."},{"startTime":1125.343,"endTime":1128.413,"body":"So you skip that because nobody"},{"startTime":1125.343,"endTime":1128.413,"body":"even knows what we should do a whole"},{"startTime":1128.413,"endTime":1130.303,"body":"podcast on what is a platform team?"},{"startTime":1130.503,"endTime":1133.383,"body":"Because everyone's going to hear platform"},{"startTime":1130.503,"endTime":1133.383,"body":"team and be  Oh, Oh, that sounds like us."},{"startTime":1133.403,"endTime":1134.283,"body":"We're building a platform."},{"startTime":1134.433,"endTime":1135.643,"body":"You're not building a platform."},{"startTime":1135.653,"endTime":1136.443,"body":"You build a train."},{"startTime":1136.453,"endTime":1137.363,"body":"We'll build a platform."},{"startTime":1137.363,"endTime":1137.673,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1137.823,"endTime":1139.433,"body":"So anyways, it's on two or five."},{"startTime":1139.433,"endTime":1142.613,"body":"Anyone who's interested in one, look"},{"startTime":1139.433,"endTime":1142.613,"body":"it up later, What is a platform team?"},{"startTime":1142.683,"endTime":1143.273,"body":"Well, I have them."},{"startTime":1143.453,"endTime":1143.973,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1144.053,"endTime":1145.173,"body":"I don't think you kept a backlog."},{"startTime":1145.393,"endTime":1146.293,"body":"Oh, I keep a backlog."},{"startTime":1146.443,"endTime":1147.313,"body":"It's a formal one."},{"startTime":1147.463,"endTime":1147.733,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1147.803,"endTime":1148.963,"body":"I actually give him an idea."},{"startTime":1148.963,"endTime":1150.413,"body":"He'll get, he'll go, I'll"},{"startTime":1148.963,"endTime":1150.413,"body":"put it in the backlog."},{"startTime":1150.513,"endTime":1152.723,"body":"I might actually go to my phone"},{"startTime":1150.513,"endTime":1152.723,"body":"and actually add it to the backlog"},{"startTime":1152.733,"endTime":1153.883,"body":"rather than just saying I'm at it."},{"startTime":1153.883,"endTime":1154.693,"body":"I'll put it over there."},{"startTime":1154.893,"endTime":1157.763,"body":"Something I wanted to point out"},{"startTime":1154.893,"endTime":1157.763,"body":"was I think there's a big hole"},{"startTime":1157.923,"endTime":1161.863,"body":"in this book like this book"},{"startTime":1157.923,"endTime":1161.863,"body":"assumes that you have CEO support."},{"startTime":1162.043,"endTime":1163.753,"body":"It even says it's very important."},{"startTime":1163.943,"endTime":1167.883,"body":"And CEO, if you're in a very large"},{"startTime":1163.943,"endTime":1167.883,"body":"organization, I guess CEO could come"},{"startTime":1167.883,"endTime":1170.073,"body":"down to like the director or whatever."},{"startTime":1170.073,"endTime":1172.433,"body":"Like it could break down to"},{"startTime":1170.073,"endTime":1172.433,"body":"like your business unit or your"},{"startTime":1172.433,"endTime":1173.373,"body":"business segment or whatever."},{"startTime":1173.373,"endTime":1174.193,"body":"It could be a general manager."},{"startTime":1174.193,"endTime":1175.013,"body":"Yeah, something like that."},{"startTime":1175.163,"endTime":1179.593,"body":"But it, there's a hole in there with what"},{"startTime":1175.163,"endTime":1179.593,"body":"if you don't have that direct support?"},{"startTime":1179.873,"endTime":1182.243,"body":"What if the product transformation"},{"startTime":1179.873,"endTime":1182.243,"body":"stops at a certain, like."},{"startTime":1182.393,"endTime":1184.313,"body":"in the ladder of your,"},{"startTime":1182.393,"endTime":1184.313,"body":"up your corporate ladder."},{"startTime":1184.313,"endTime":1185.073,"body":"they don't care."},{"startTime":1185.223,"endTime":1186.663,"body":"You know, he doesn't go into any of that."},{"startTime":1186.703,"endTime":1190.403,"body":"And only in my experience, cause again,"},{"startTime":1186.703,"endTime":1190.403,"body":"we kind of all know each other, come"},{"startTime":1190.403,"endTime":1194.453,"body":"together through where we have worked"},{"startTime":1190.403,"endTime":1194.453,"body":"in the past, where that, that like two"},{"startTime":1194.453,"endTime":1197.263,"body":"seconds of my career where I thought I"},{"startTime":1194.453,"endTime":1197.263,"body":"wanted to be an agile coach That's where"},{"startTime":1197.263,"endTime":1200.713,"body":"you run into all your problems is you"},{"startTime":1197.263,"endTime":1200.713,"body":"don't have leadership buy in and your"},{"startTime":1200.713,"endTime":1202.853,"body":"teams are trying to push that rock uphill."},{"startTime":1203.003,"endTime":1206.863,"body":"And the minute that you leave or your"},{"startTime":1203.003,"endTime":1206.863,"body":"contract ends or whatever, like one"},{"startTime":1206.863,"endTime":1209.863,"body":"less person pushing that rock is all"},{"startTime":1206.863,"endTime":1209.863,"body":"I needed to just roll over the team."},{"startTime":1210.013,"endTime":1214.113,"body":"And now you're all back to ground zero,"},{"startTime":1210.013,"endTime":1214.113,"body":"but your coach is known as Sisyphus."},{"startTime":1214.373,"endTime":1214.713,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1214.743,"endTime":1217.253,"body":"And the other side of that is normally"},{"startTime":1214.743,"endTime":1217.253,"body":"you're protecting the team, right?"},{"startTime":1217.253,"endTime":1220.393,"body":"So clearly when you're the person"},{"startTime":1217.253,"endTime":1220.393,"body":"protecting the team and you're moving,"},{"startTime":1220.543,"endTime":1222.003,"body":"you're pushing the rock and you move."},{"startTime":1222.083,"endTime":1223.423,"body":"There's no one protecting"},{"startTime":1222.083,"endTime":1223.423,"body":"the team anymore."},{"startTime":1223.573,"endTime":1226.913,"body":"So what Cagan recommends there"},{"startTime":1223.573,"endTime":1226.913,"body":"in that situation is if you're"},{"startTime":1226.913,"endTime":1228.033,"body":"an individual contributor."},{"startTime":1228.183,"endTime":1232.183,"body":"Maybe try to raise your skills so"},{"startTime":1228.183,"endTime":1232.183,"body":"you can have a better discussion,"},{"startTime":1232.383,"endTime":1235.473,"body":"become a better partner with"},{"startTime":1232.383,"endTime":1235.473,"body":"that leader who's not on board."},{"startTime":1235.623,"endTime":1238.623,"body":"That's one thing, and then slowly"},{"startTime":1235.623,"endTime":1238.623,"body":"try to exercise some control over"},{"startTime":1238.623,"endTime":1240.123,"body":"things, like that's easy to say."},{"startTime":1240.213,"endTime":1244.623,"body":"There's definitely the desire to"},{"startTime":1240.213,"endTime":1244.623,"body":"improve your skillset in there."},{"startTime":1244.633,"endTime":1248.383,"body":"If he talks about being"},{"startTime":1244.633,"endTime":1248.383,"body":"stronger at what you do, right."},{"startTime":1248.433,"endTime":1251.813,"body":"and from a leadership standpoint, if"},{"startTime":1248.433,"endTime":1251.813,"body":"your team isn't strong enough, then"},{"startTime":1251.813,"endTime":1253.323,"body":"you need to hire stronger people."},{"startTime":1253.353,"endTime":1259.133,"body":"So in order for the product model"},{"startTime":1253.353,"endTime":1259.133,"body":"to work in an organization, Everyone"},{"startTime":1259.143,"endTime":1263.703,"body":"has to step up and become stronger,"},{"startTime":1259.143,"endTime":1263.703,"body":"or you have to hire stronger people."},{"startTime":1263.853,"endTime":1268.133,"body":"And to step up may require bringing"},{"startTime":1263.853,"endTime":1268.133,"body":"a coach in, product coach to help."},{"startTime":1268.283,"endTime":1273.943,"body":"But, yeah, there's definitely a edict in"},{"startTime":1268.283,"endTime":1273.943,"body":"here, whether explicitly or implicitly"},{"startTime":1273.943,"endTime":1276.353,"body":"implied, that you have to get better."},{"startTime":1276.503,"endTime":1278.753,"body":"Now he does, there is a, partnerships."},{"startTime":1278.993,"endTime":1281.368,"body":"there is a point in the book where"},{"startTime":1278.993,"endTime":1281.368,"body":"he's talking about Product leaders."},{"startTime":1281.498,"endTime":1285.138,"body":"And he is saying normally the"},{"startTime":1281.498,"endTime":1285.138,"body":"product leaders that you have, a"},{"startTime":1285.138,"endTime":1288.128,"body":"big part of their job is coaching"},{"startTime":1285.138,"endTime":1288.128,"body":"and they should be able to coach the"},{"startTime":1288.128,"endTime":1289.878,"body":"people that they hire up to speed."},{"startTime":1289.878,"endTime":1292.098,"body":"I think it was three months is"},{"startTime":1289.878,"endTime":1292.098,"body":"the number that he gives you."},{"startTime":1292.098,"endTime":1294.218,"body":"You should have somebody up"},{"startTime":1292.098,"endTime":1294.218,"body":"to speed and operational."},{"startTime":1294.368,"endTime":1298.608,"body":"But on the track of what we're saying and"},{"startTime":1294.368,"endTime":1298.608,"body":"again, to sync it with my experience, if"},{"startTime":1298.608,"endTime":1302.408,"body":"you're product leaders, essentially I've"},{"startTime":1298.608,"endTime":1302.408,"body":"never done the job in the first place."},{"startTime":1302.558,"endTime":1305.508,"body":"They need to get product coaches"},{"startTime":1302.558,"endTime":1305.508,"body":"from outside to come in and help"},{"startTime":1305.508,"endTime":1309.378,"body":"them or to coach the people that"},{"startTime":1305.508,"endTime":1309.378,"body":"are under their staff, right?"},{"startTime":1309.378,"endTime":1310.978,"body":"Because they're not"},{"startTime":1309.378,"endTime":1310.978,"body":"capable of coaching them."},{"startTime":1311.128,"endTime":1312.698,"body":"So then you get other people to coach."},{"startTime":1312.878,"endTime":1317.068,"body":"If I'm Gary from sales and"},{"startTime":1312.878,"endTime":1317.068,"body":"I get a new job as a V."},{"startTime":1317.068,"endTime":1317.268,"body":"P."},{"startTime":1317.268,"endTime":1319.838,"body":"of product at Om's Development Company."},{"startTime":1319.988,"endTime":1320.888,"body":"Now it's mine."},{"startTime":1321.118,"endTime":1321.388,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1321.388,"endTime":1321.738,"body":"I love it."},{"startTime":1321.838,"endTime":1322.808,"body":"You bought him out?"},{"startTime":1322.908,"endTime":1324.188,"body":"Oh, no, no, no, no, no."},{"startTime":1324.188,"endTime":1324.718,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":1324.718,"endTime":1325.048,"body":"No, no."},{"startTime":1325.058,"endTime":1328.398,"body":"We were both acquired, but"},{"startTime":1325.058,"endTime":1328.398,"body":"I took mine and I left."},{"startTime":1328.548,"endTime":1329.398,"body":"He got his yacht."},{"startTime":1329.468,"endTime":1330.188,"body":"I'm not sticking around."},{"startTime":1330.188,"endTime":1330.538,"body":"He sailed away."},{"startTime":1330.608,"endTime":1331.428,"body":"What are you, crazy?"},{"startTime":1331.428,"endTime":1332.888,"body":"Sticking around after I buy my company?"},{"startTime":1333.038,"endTime":1335.508,"body":"Brian, I like all your software,"},{"startTime":1333.038,"endTime":1335.508,"body":"but why don't you do this one thing?"},{"startTime":1335.658,"endTime":1337.508,"body":"And also, why don't you"},{"startTime":1335.658,"endTime":1337.508,"body":"change this one thing?"},{"startTime":1337.658,"endTime":1339.168,"body":"You don't need to meet every single day."},{"startTime":1339.208,"endTime":1339.838,"body":"You're a smart guy."},{"startTime":1339.838,"endTime":1341.748,"body":"Your sprints don't need to be two weeks."},{"startTime":1341.768,"endTime":1343.978,"body":"You can get that done in a couple days."},{"startTime":1344.128,"endTime":1346.098,"body":"You don't need to release"},{"startTime":1344.128,"endTime":1346.098,"body":"every sprint, do you?"},{"startTime":1346.098,"endTime":1348.008,"body":"You can every couple months, maybe."},{"startTime":1348.308,"endTime":1349.538,"body":"He talks about release cadence."},{"startTime":1349.568,"endTime":1351.018,"body":"That was pretty good in his book."},{"startTime":1351.018,"endTime":1354.138,"body":"He talks about my customers are saying,"},{"startTime":1351.018,"endTime":1354.138,"body":"Well, you're giving us all these changes."},{"startTime":1354.288,"endTime":1356.538,"body":"We need a longer release cadence"},{"startTime":1354.288,"endTime":1356.538,"body":"because we have to have all these"},{"startTime":1356.578,"endTime":1357.978,"body":"testing and all this type of stuff."},{"startTime":1357.978,"endTime":1361.168,"body":"He's no, you're giving them too"},{"startTime":1357.978,"endTime":1361.168,"body":"much in your big bang releases."},{"startTime":1361.178,"endTime":1364.768,"body":"You need to release more off and you're"},{"startTime":1361.178,"endTime":1364.768,"body":"harming them before the training impact."},{"startTime":1364.778,"endTime":1366.128,"body":"And yeah, that's a tough one."},{"startTime":1366.128,"endTime":1368.178,"body":"That's a tough one to choke"},{"startTime":1366.128,"endTime":1368.178,"body":"down for a couple of people that"},{"startTime":1368.178,"endTime":1369.238,"body":"I've worked with in my career."},{"startTime":1369.338,"endTime":1370.678,"body":"So there's real good advice in here."},{"startTime":1370.678,"endTime":1375.615,"body":"But where I was going was if you're"},{"startTime":1370.678,"endTime":1375.615,"body":"Gary, the new VP of Product and"},{"startTime":1375.615,"endTime":1378.675,"body":"you've only ever worked in sales and"},{"startTime":1375.615,"endTime":1378.675,"body":"account management in your career."},{"startTime":1378.825,"endTime":1382.315,"body":"But now because you go golfing with"},{"startTime":1378.825,"endTime":1382.315,"body":"the CEO, you're the new product person."},{"startTime":1382.32,"endTime":1387.4,"body":"We read a book, ed, and it said"},{"startTime":1382.32,"endTime":1387.4,"body":"we needed a product leaders."},{"startTime":1387.55,"endTime":1392.47,"body":"So I've hired you, well, not you, but"},{"startTime":1387.55,"endTime":1392.47,"body":"I've hired Gary to be our product leader."},{"startTime":1392.62,"endTime":1396.19,"body":"He's got a solid . Product"},{"startTime":1392.62,"endTime":1396.19,"body":"related experience."},{"startTime":1396.25,"endTime":1397.31,"body":"Ohm tangentially."},{"startTime":1397.33,"endTime":1397.87,"body":"Trust me."},{"startTime":1398.1,"endTime":1399.02,"body":"It's product related."},{"startTime":1399.17,"endTime":1400.8,"body":"So he can't coach product discovery."},{"startTime":1401.12,"endTime":1404.54,"body":"He can't talk about  how to find"},{"startTime":1401.12,"endTime":1404.54,"body":"the business viability risks"},{"startTime":1404.71,"endTime":1405.51,"body":"because he's never done any of that."},{"startTime":1405.52,"endTime":1407.02,"body":"I mean, he could talk about it, I guess."},{"startTime":1407.15,"endTime":1409.18,"body":"And he probably will talk"},{"startTime":1407.15,"endTime":1409.18,"body":"about it in my experience."},{"startTime":1409.18,"endTime":1411.44,"body":"Anyway, he'll probably"},{"startTime":1409.18,"endTime":1411.44,"body":"talk at length about it."},{"startTime":1411.59,"endTime":1414.48,"body":"However, he can't tell you any,"},{"startTime":1411.59,"endTime":1414.48,"body":"he can't give you any how to's."},{"startTime":1414.63,"endTime":1417.54,"body":"You want me to coach those"},{"startTime":1414.63,"endTime":1417.54,"body":"product managers, let's say."},{"startTime":1417.55,"endTime":1422.02,"body":"So in that case, Gary needs to invest"},{"startTime":1417.55,"endTime":1422.02,"body":"some of his money that he takes to"},{"startTime":1422.02,"endTime":1425.94,"body":"run his department with, and he needs"},{"startTime":1422.02,"endTime":1425.94,"body":"to hire product coaches to help all"},{"startTime":1425.94,"endTime":1430.97,"body":"the people that Gary hires to advance"},{"startTime":1425.94,"endTime":1430.97,"body":"their skills in product discovery"},{"startTime":1430.97,"endTime":1432.73,"body":"and everything else, he does say."},{"startTime":1433.02,"endTime":1435.14,"body":"That you need to get outside help"},{"startTime":1433.02,"endTime":1435.14,"body":"if you don't have those skills."},{"startTime":1435.16,"endTime":1435.87,"body":"Oh, he does say that."},{"startTime":1435.95,"endTime":1436.3,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":1436.5,"endTime":1439.61,"body":"If you don't have this buy in, it's going"},{"startTime":1436.5,"endTime":1439.61,"body":"to be much harder or something like that."},{"startTime":1439.76,"endTime":1441.52,"body":"But he really doesn't expand on that."},{"startTime":1441.57,"endTime":1442.5,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":1442.64,"endTime":1443.84,"body":"Don't waste your time on transformation."},{"startTime":1443.84,"endTime":1446.97,"body":"If you don't have leadership"},{"startTime":1443.84,"endTime":1446.97,"body":"support, it's not going to,"},{"startTime":1447.06,"endTime":1448.22,"body":"work  it's not worth the effort."},{"startTime":1448.23,"endTime":1448.99,"body":"it's painful."},{"startTime":1449.07,"endTime":1452.77,"body":"And if you're trying to do a product"},{"startTime":1449.07,"endTime":1452.77,"body":"model transformation and you're working"},{"startTime":1452.77,"endTime":1457.11,"body":"with leaders who don't have a product"},{"startTime":1452.77,"endTime":1457.11,"body":"mindset and they weren't agile before it"},{"startTime":1457.13,"endTime":1459.34,"body":"became product you're not gonna make it"},{"startTime":1459.49,"endTime":1460.95,"body":"it's been baby steps, right?"},{"startTime":1460.95,"endTime":1465.11,"body":"We went from agility to business"},{"startTime":1460.95,"endTime":1465.11,"body":"agility, to business transformation,"},{"startTime":1465.14,"endTime":1466.82,"body":"to product model, right?"},{"startTime":1466.97,"endTime":1468.83,"body":"So I'm not trying to say"},{"startTime":1466.97,"endTime":1468.83,"body":"they're not the same thing."},{"startTime":1468.83,"endTime":1470.09,"body":"they're incrementally different."},{"startTime":1470.37,"endTime":1472.63,"body":"But it is a mindset shift."},{"startTime":1472.78,"endTime":1472.87,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":1473.11,"endTime":1476.02,"body":"that the leaders are gonna have to go"},{"startTime":1473.11,"endTime":1476.02,"body":"through, but if they didn't go through"},{"startTime":1476.02,"endTime":1480.22,"body":"the first mindset shift, they're"},{"startTime":1476.02,"endTime":1480.22,"body":"going, gonna make it through this one."},{"startTime":1480.22,"endTime":1480.49,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1480.64,"endTime":1480.94,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1481.03,"endTime":1482.88,"body":"And that again I understand"},{"startTime":1481.03,"endTime":1482.88,"body":"why he avoids it."},{"startTime":1483.18,"endTime":1484.5,"body":"'cause basically it's a dead end."},{"startTime":1484.65,"endTime":1486.06,"body":"I mean, he probably"},{"startTime":1484.65,"endTime":1486.06,"body":"could write a whole book."},{"startTime":1486.12,"endTime":1487.771,"body":"I was gonna just say that about"},{"startTime":1486.12,"endTime":1487.771,"body":"this dead end, that maybe the."},{"startTime":1488.105,"endTime":1490.645,"body":"Maybe that's going to be"},{"startTime":1488.105,"endTime":1490.645,"body":"his next book dead ends."},{"startTime":1490.645,"endTime":1491.975,"body":"No, hypnotized."},{"startTime":1492.105,"endTime":1494.205,"body":"How do you change the mindset of people?"},{"startTime":1494.355,"endTime":1497.085,"body":"Mind control, mind controlled or yeah."},{"startTime":1497.395,"endTime":1501.275,"body":"I know you have to have one, one"},{"startTime":1497.395,"endTime":1501.275,"body":"word title, but you just said,"},{"startTime":1501.315,"endTime":1502.645,"body":"how do you change the mind?"},{"startTime":1502.795,"endTime":1505.885,"body":"And mindset of these people, and"},{"startTime":1502.795,"endTime":1505.885,"body":"it, I still go back to the quote"},{"startTime":1506.155,"endTime":1507.085,"body":"convinced against your will."},{"startTime":1507.085,"endTime":1508.135,"body":"You have the opinion still."},{"startTime":1508.135,"endTime":1512.065,"body":"You're, you, you, I, I have"},{"startTime":1508.135,"endTime":1512.065,"body":"little to no confidence."},{"startTime":1512.065,"endTime":1512.815,"body":"You can change their mind."},{"startTime":1513.145,"endTime":1514.975,"body":"And I, I have little to no confidence."},{"startTime":1514.98,"endTime":1516.176,"body":"You could raise your hand"},{"startTime":1514.98,"endTime":1516.176,"body":"and say, I need some help."},{"startTime":1516.326,"endTime":1519.396,"body":"That you're actually going to get help"},{"startTime":1516.326,"endTime":1519.396,"body":"and today you're, Oh, you need help."},{"startTime":1519.406,"endTime":1520.346,"body":"You must not be good enough."},{"startTime":1520.346,"endTime":1521.196,"body":"Let's hire someone else."},{"startTime":1521.346,"endTime":1524.736,"body":"Not realizing that the amount of"},{"startTime":1521.346,"endTime":1524.736,"body":"work that's been put on to you and"},{"startTime":1524.736,"endTime":1529.136,"body":"the skill set you're being asked to"},{"startTime":1524.736,"endTime":1529.136,"body":"execute on there is no OJT anymore"},{"startTime":1529.136,"endTime":1530.486,"body":"in this, in this, in this world."},{"startTime":1530.486,"endTime":1530.706,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1530.706,"endTime":1531.736,"body":"You either know it or you don't."},{"startTime":1531.916,"endTime":1537.146,"body":"Well, the reason that I go down this"},{"startTime":1531.916,"endTime":1537.146,"body":"tangent is if you're working for people"},{"startTime":1537.146,"endTime":1540.486,"body":"who've never done the job that you're"},{"startTime":1537.146,"endTime":1540.486,"body":"doing, they didn't come up through the"},{"startTime":1540.486,"endTime":1544.106,"body":"ranks of the job that you're doing,"},{"startTime":1540.486,"endTime":1544.106,"body":"that includes developers it's gonna be"},{"startTime":1544.106,"endTime":1546.796,"body":"very difficult, like everything you're"},{"startTime":1544.106,"endTime":1546.796,"body":"saying, it's gonna be more difficult."},{"startTime":1547.086,"endTime":1550.046,"body":"It's going to be more difficult, but at"},{"startTime":1547.086,"endTime":1550.046,"body":"the same time, if you're a director of"},{"startTime":1550.046,"endTime":1555.086,"body":"engineers and you have managers underneath"},{"startTime":1550.046,"endTime":1555.086,"body":"you and you have 50 engineers on that"},{"startTime":1555.086,"endTime":1560.486,"body":"team that make up the engineering team,"},{"startTime":1555.086,"endTime":1560.486,"body":"do you have to, as a director, do you have"},{"startTime":1560.486,"endTime":1563.796,"body":"to know how to Stand up an AWS instance."},{"startTime":1563.996,"endTime":1567.586,"body":"you have to be able to conceptually"},{"startTime":1563.996,"endTime":1567.586,"body":"have the conversation, but the fact"},{"startTime":1567.586,"endTime":1571.666,"body":"that you came from the Azure cloud"},{"startTime":1567.586,"endTime":1571.666,"body":"space, not the AWS cloud space, you"},{"startTime":1571.666,"endTime":1575.176,"body":"have some transferable knowledge and"},{"startTime":1571.666,"endTime":1575.176,"body":"conceptual knowledge that should be"},{"startTime":1575.176,"endTime":1578.956,"body":"enough to say, I don't, want to be very"},{"startTime":1575.176,"endTime":1578.956,"body":"careful to say, they've never done it."},{"startTime":1578.956,"endTime":1580.226,"body":"Thus, they can't hold that role."},{"startTime":1580.226,"endTime":1581.326,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1581.406,"endTime":1584.606,"body":"There's some translational knowledge"},{"startTime":1581.406,"endTime":1584.606,"body":"they can apply, like costing models,"},{"startTime":1584.606,"endTime":1586.436,"body":"for example, in that scenario."},{"startTime":1586.436,"endTime":1589.976,"body":"I grew up an angular developer"},{"startTime":1586.436,"endTime":1589.976,"body":"and now I'm managing a react team."},{"startTime":1590.126,"endTime":1591.016,"body":"Does that matter?"},{"startTime":1591.306,"endTime":1594.386,"body":"So I do want to make sure that we"},{"startTime":1591.306,"endTime":1594.386,"body":"don't paint with too broad of a"},{"startTime":1594.386,"endTime":1597.826,"body":"brush to say, You haven't lived in"},{"startTime":1594.386,"endTime":1597.826,"body":"my shoes, thus you can't lead me."},{"startTime":1597.836,"endTime":1599.036,"body":"I understand where you're coming from."},{"startTime":1599.086,"endTime":1602.016,"body":"I think about that all the time when I"},{"startTime":1599.086,"endTime":1602.016,"body":"see developer job descriptions, Oh, you"},{"startTime":1602.016,"endTime":1605.786,"body":"have to have experience in Elastica in"},{"startTime":1602.016,"endTime":1605.786,"body":"the elk stack and Elastica, and that's"},{"startTime":1605.786,"endTime":1607.816,"body":"not that difficult to pick up and learn."},{"startTime":1607.896,"endTime":1612.426,"body":"Very quickly if you already know about"},{"startTime":1607.896,"endTime":1612.426,"body":"ETL data pipelines and whatnot, right?"},{"startTime":1612.426,"endTime":1615.996,"body":"Because you've done it in the Azure"},{"startTime":1612.426,"endTime":1615.996,"body":"Cloud to pick it up and move your"},{"startTime":1615.996,"endTime":1619.586,"body":"technical skills over to AWS that's"},{"startTime":1615.996,"endTime":1619.586,"body":"actually not difficult, right?"},{"startTime":1619.766,"endTime":1622.531,"body":"I mean, there's some syntax to figure"},{"startTime":1619.766,"endTime":1622.531,"body":"out, but I mean, like three months."},{"startTime":1622.531,"endTime":1623.481,"body":"I mean, how you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1623.541,"endTime":1623.781,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1623.781,"endTime":1624.291,"body":"It's doable."},{"startTime":1624.291,"endTime":1624.501,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1624.831,"endTime":1625.341,"body":"It's, it's doable."},{"startTime":1625.401,"endTime":1630.201,"body":"But that is different from some people"},{"startTime":1625.401,"endTime":1630.201,"body":"that I've seen that were project managers"},{"startTime":1630.211,"endTime":1631.741,"body":"that are now engineering managers."},{"startTime":1631.981,"endTime":1637.071,"body":"I've seen it less often of"},{"startTime":1631.981,"endTime":1637.071,"body":"people from other non technical"},{"startTime":1637.071,"endTime":1641.011,"body":"roles jumping into engineering"},{"startTime":1637.071,"endTime":1641.011,"body":"management than I have product."},{"startTime":1641.211,"endTime":1644.071,"body":"If I'm going to put a number"},{"startTime":1641.211,"endTime":1644.071,"body":"on product, I'm going to say 80"},{"startTime":1644.071,"endTime":1645.311,"body":"percent of the, quote, product."},{"startTime":1645.461,"endTime":1649.411,"body":"Product management, product leaders,"},{"startTime":1645.461,"endTime":1649.411,"body":"come from non product when you"},{"startTime":1649.411,"endTime":1650.661,"body":"get to the VP level and above."},{"startTime":1650.811,"endTime":1652.231,"body":"Does that inherently make them bad?"},{"startTime":1652.621,"endTime":1652.951,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1654.501,"endTime":1654.911,"body":"No, I don't know."},{"startTime":1656.921,"endTime":1659.471,"body":"Uh, Well I don't know"},{"startTime":1656.921,"endTime":1659.471,"body":"if it makes them bad."},{"startTime":1659.621,"endTime":1662.421,"body":"However if they're self aware enough."},{"startTime":1662.571,"endTime":1666.591,"body":"To know that they can't coach the people"},{"startTime":1662.571,"endTime":1666.591,"body":"that they're hiring and they need to get"},{"startTime":1666.591,"endTime":1671.421,"body":"help then I'm more okay with it Then i'm"},{"startTime":1666.591,"endTime":1671.421,"body":"more understanding because I mean the"},{"startTime":1671.421,"endTime":1672.651,"body":"current downturn in the market, right?"},{"startTime":1672.651,"endTime":1676.521,"body":"they want people that like the market"},{"startTime":1672.651,"endTime":1676.521,"body":"is trending towards people with More"},{"startTime":1676.521,"endTime":1681.201,"body":"experience in product management You"},{"startTime":1676.521,"endTime":1681.201,"body":"started slowly seeing the job say three"},{"startTime":1681.201,"endTime":1684.151,"body":"to five years in product management,"},{"startTime":1681.201,"endTime":1684.151,"body":"and they have started to creep up to"},{"startTime":1684.221,"endTime":1687.181,"body":"eight plus years in product management,"},{"startTime":1684.221,"endTime":1687.181,"body":"which I doubt anyone's had eight"},{"startTime":1687.181,"endTime":1688.201,"body":"plus years in product management."},{"startTime":1688.271,"endTime":1689.741,"body":"But you're starting to see that."},{"startTime":1689.786,"endTime":1691.156,"body":"People want more."},{"startTime":1691.296,"endTime":1694.526,"body":"They're trying to grab up more"},{"startTime":1691.296,"endTime":1694.526,"body":"experienced people in the market."},{"startTime":1694.566,"endTime":1697.706,"body":"So from an engineering standpoint,"},{"startTime":1694.566,"endTime":1697.706,"body":"I think there's a natural transition"},{"startTime":1697.806,"endTime":1700.576,"body":"from a developer engineer, from"},{"startTime":1697.806,"endTime":1700.576,"body":"someone who grew up in the development"},{"startTime":1700.576,"endTime":1702.376,"body":"space to transition into product."},{"startTime":1702.526,"endTime":1707.656,"body":"I think a developer has been"},{"startTime":1702.526,"endTime":1707.656,"body":"doing nothing but creating in"},{"startTime":1707.996,"endTime":1709.416,"body":"their feature factory worlds."},{"startTime":1709.416,"endTime":1710.416,"body":"They've been creating."},{"startTime":1710.566,"endTime":1711.956,"body":"A product throughout their career."},{"startTime":1712.216,"endTime":1715.786,"body":"So I actually see a natural transition"},{"startTime":1712.216,"endTime":1715.786,"body":"to where I would give it to someone who"},{"startTime":1715.786,"endTime":1721.106,"body":"was a developer for 10 years and they've"},{"startTime":1715.786,"endTime":1721.106,"body":"only been a product manager for two years."},{"startTime":1721.406,"endTime":1725.196,"body":"I would give them bonus points for the"},{"startTime":1721.406,"endTime":1725.196,"body":"development time because during their"},{"startTime":1725.196,"endTime":1729.786,"body":"time in there, they were working with"},{"startTime":1725.196,"endTime":1729.786,"body":"essentially product people delivering"},{"startTime":1729.786,"endTime":1733.256,"body":"the features, developing the features,"},{"startTime":1729.786,"endTime":1733.256,"body":"probably writing the code that did"},{"startTime":1733.256,"endTime":1736.506,"body":"all the instrumentation to make sure"},{"startTime":1733.256,"endTime":1736.506,"body":"that you had the metrics you needed."},{"startTime":1736.686,"endTime":1738.446,"body":"So I would actually give a developer."},{"startTime":1738.596,"endTime":1742.676,"body":"If you look at LinkedIn, I'd give someone"},{"startTime":1738.596,"endTime":1742.676,"body":"who came up through the development space,"},{"startTime":1742.676,"endTime":1746.866,"body":"through the QA space, that a little extra"},{"startTime":1742.676,"endTime":1746.866,"body":"bonus because their mindset on their"},{"startTime":1746.866,"endTime":1751.476,"body":"day to day was a little more product"},{"startTime":1746.866,"endTime":1751.476,"body":"minded and same with marketing, right?"},{"startTime":1751.476,"endTime":1755.026,"body":"They come up through the marketing space"},{"startTime":1751.476,"endTime":1755.026,"body":"then, but they're not going to be managing"},{"startTime":1755.086,"endTime":1758.971,"body":"the engineers, but they very well could"},{"startTime":1755.086,"endTime":1758.971,"body":"have someone who does the marketing."},{"startTime":1759.121,"endTime":1760.951,"body":"On their team, managing"},{"startTime":1759.121,"endTime":1760.951,"body":"engineers for them."},{"startTime":1761.301,"endTime":1765.021,"body":"So you're never going to see on a LinkedIn"},{"startTime":1761.301,"endTime":1765.021,"body":"profile that someone hired a coach."},{"startTime":1765.171,"endTime":1769.671,"body":"So the judgment that they didn't"},{"startTime":1765.171,"endTime":1769.671,"body":"have the experience on their LinkedIn"},{"startTime":1769.681,"endTime":1773.451,"body":"profile, isn't going to show you their"},{"startTime":1769.681,"endTime":1773.451,"body":"leadership experience in their time"},{"startTime":1773.451,"endTime":1775.431,"body":"in the seat and how they did that."},{"startTime":1775.761,"endTime":1777.271,"body":"You may see it in the"},{"startTime":1775.761,"endTime":1777.271,"body":"recommendations, right?"},{"startTime":1777.281,"endTime":1780.471,"body":"You look down on LinkedIn recommendations,"},{"startTime":1777.281,"endTime":1780.471,"body":"you may find some nice juicy stuff there,"},{"startTime":1780.471,"endTime":1782.141,"body":"but yeah, I understand what you're saying."},{"startTime":1782.391,"endTime":1783.601,"body":"I'm just trying to"},{"startTime":1782.391,"endTime":1783.601,"body":"defend the people, right?"},{"startTime":1783.601,"endTime":1785.721,"body":"There are some folks out there"},{"startTime":1783.601,"endTime":1785.721,"body":"that are really good at their job."},{"startTime":1785.801,"endTime":1786.631,"body":"they've done some great stuff."},{"startTime":1786.641,"endTime":1790.021,"body":"there are great product leaders"},{"startTime":1786.641,"endTime":1790.021,"body":"out there that are aware of"},{"startTime":1790.041,"endTime":1790.921,"body":"the, actually, You know what?"},{"startTime":1790.981,"endTime":1793.281,"body":"I shouldn't beat up"},{"startTime":1790.981,"endTime":1793.281,"body":"product leaders so much."},{"startTime":1793.281,"endTime":1797.686,"body":"And turn my attention over to agile"},{"startTime":1793.281,"endTime":1797.686,"body":"coaches a little bit, because there"},{"startTime":1797.686,"endTime":1798.806,"body":"are agile coaches out there that."},{"startTime":1799.096,"endTime":1801.036,"body":"They've never written a line of code ever."},{"startTime":1801.136,"endTime":1802.616,"body":"They don't know how any"},{"startTime":1801.136,"endTime":1802.616,"body":"of those systems work."},{"startTime":1802.876,"endTime":1805.536,"body":"They've never had to stand up an"},{"startTime":1802.876,"endTime":1805.536,"body":"environment or anything like that."},{"startTime":1805.686,"endTime":1812.416,"body":"And I think of the same thing with them"},{"startTime":1805.686,"endTime":1812.416,"body":"trying to coach developers as I'm now"},{"startTime":1812.656,"endTime":1815.516,"body":"thinking about with product management,"},{"startTime":1812.656,"endTime":1815.516,"body":"Hey here's some product discovery"},{"startTime":1815.516,"endTime":1817.156,"body":"techniques, the things you might try."},{"startTime":1817.306,"endTime":1819.646,"body":"Okay, well, if I've never"},{"startTime":1817.306,"endTime":1819.646,"body":"worked as a product manager."},{"startTime":1819.796,"endTime":1821.136,"body":"I can't coach that."},{"startTime":1821.136,"endTime":1825.156,"body":"So the next best thing I can do is"},{"startTime":1821.136,"endTime":1825.156,"body":"get somebody who is an expert to"},{"startTime":1825.156,"endTime":1829.116,"body":"help my team members and potentially"},{"startTime":1825.156,"endTime":1829.116,"body":"me as well to learn those things."},{"startTime":1829.256,"endTime":1832.366,"body":"I think like now let's transfer that"},{"startTime":1829.256,"endTime":1832.366,"body":"discussion over to agile coaches."},{"startTime":1832.516,"endTime":1835.906,"body":"And now it's a very meaty discussion,"},{"startTime":1832.516,"endTime":1835.906,"body":"which could be a whole different podcast"},{"startTime":1835.926,"endTime":1839.946,"body":"How do you coach your team on like CICD"},{"startTime":1835.926,"endTime":1839.946,"body":"best practices and stuff like that?"},{"startTime":1839.946,"endTime":1842.366,"body":"If you've never done it, this"},{"startTime":1839.946,"endTime":1842.366,"body":"is, yeah, I guess I'm sort of"},{"startTime":1842.366,"endTime":1843.456,"body":"having the same conversation."},{"startTime":1843.606,"endTime":1845.796,"body":"I think that's a valid comparison."},{"startTime":1845.796,"endTime":1848.856,"body":"So if you're an agile coach who doesn't"},{"startTime":1845.796,"endTime":1848.856,"body":"have a technical background, let's say"},{"startTime":1848.966,"endTime":1853.566,"body":"you've never worked in DevOps or whatever,"},{"startTime":1848.966,"endTime":1853.566,"body":"and you want to coach your team in CICD."},{"startTime":1853.861,"endTime":1856.741,"body":"You could do worse than to partner"},{"startTime":1853.861,"endTime":1856.741,"body":"with somebody who is a DevOps"},{"startTime":1856.741,"endTime":1858.651,"body":"person, bring them in, right?"},{"startTime":1858.801,"endTime":1862.241,"body":"Because at the end of the day, you're"},{"startTime":1858.801,"endTime":1862.241,"body":"trying to make the team better, right?"},{"startTime":1862.421,"endTime":1864.571,"body":"You may not have the skills necessarily."},{"startTime":1864.771,"endTime":1868.521,"body":"Unfortunately, with the product"},{"startTime":1864.771,"endTime":1868.521,"body":"leaders that haven't worked in product"},{"startTime":1868.561,"endTime":1873.056,"body":"before, when they get engaged in"},{"startTime":1868.561,"endTime":1873.056,"body":"transformations, that's where, I think"},{"startTime":1873.276,"endTime":1876.966,"body":"Marty Kagan uses the term transformation"},{"startTime":1873.276,"endTime":1876.966,"body":"theater or something like that."},{"startTime":1877.116,"endTime":1879.206,"body":"That's when people go"},{"startTime":1877.116,"endTime":1879.206,"body":"through the motions, right?"},{"startTime":1879.356,"endTime":1884.036,"body":"Many companies go through this and without"},{"startTime":1879.356,"endTime":1884.036,"body":"really changing how their employees work."},{"startTime":1884.186,"endTime":1887.656,"body":"You know, actually changing the"},{"startTime":1884.186,"endTime":1887.656,"body":"conditions, actually changing the culture."},{"startTime":1887.806,"endTime":1891.576,"body":"Or even org design for that matter,"},{"startTime":1887.806,"endTime":1891.576,"body":"which plays a big part into this."},{"startTime":1891.726,"endTime":1895.416,"body":"I think there's so much situational"},{"startTime":1891.726,"endTime":1895.416,"body":"nuance that goes into some of the"},{"startTime":1895.416,"endTime":1897.736,"body":"things we say, some of the things"},{"startTime":1895.416,"endTime":1897.736,"body":"we do about what someone should or"},{"startTime":1897.736,"endTime":1899.266,"body":"should not have and where it fits."},{"startTime":1899.266,"endTime":1902.586,"body":"And I think some of the greatest"},{"startTime":1899.266,"endTime":1902.586,"body":"agile coaches I've ran into were"},{"startTime":1902.756,"endTime":1904.456,"body":"previous school teachers, right?"},{"startTime":1904.666,"endTime":1908.696,"body":"So they picked up enough technical"},{"startTime":1904.666,"endTime":1908.696,"body":"skills along the way, but they're"},{"startTime":1908.696,"endTime":1909.826,"body":"good at running a classroom."},{"startTime":1909.881,"endTime":1911.771,"body":"And they're good at, they're"},{"startTime":1909.881,"endTime":1911.771,"body":"good at running a Sprint."},{"startTime":1912.041,"endTime":1917.121,"body":"And so those teaching techniques play"},{"startTime":1912.041,"endTime":1917.121,"body":"very well when you're trying to manage"},{"startTime":1917.121,"endTime":1921.241,"body":"the team, manage the client, manage"},{"startTime":1917.121,"endTime":1921.241,"body":"the delivery, communicate the message."},{"startTime":1921.551,"endTime":1922.761,"body":"Be a good storyteller."},{"startTime":1923.011,"endTime":1925.671,"body":"keep people happy in what"},{"startTime":1923.011,"endTime":1925.671,"body":"they're doing on a daily basis."},{"startTime":1925.881,"endTime":1929.271,"body":"A school teacher may not have"},{"startTime":1925.881,"endTime":1929.271,"body":"Kubernetes experience to help coach"},{"startTime":1929.271,"endTime":1933.291,"body":"a team, but they're going to do a"},{"startTime":1929.271,"endTime":1933.291,"body":"great job at communicating the needs."},{"startTime":1933.441,"endTime":1933.761,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1933.821,"endTime":1937.631,"body":"And that was and I forget the term he"},{"startTime":1933.821,"endTime":1937.631,"body":"used and I could probably look it up,"},{"startTime":1937.751,"endTime":1939.551,"body":"but you know, what is it good for us for?"},{"startTime":1939.571,"endTime":1942.841,"body":"It's good for a technology"},{"startTime":1939.571,"endTime":1942.841,"body":"driven organization, right?"},{"startTime":1942.871,"endTime":1946.431,"body":"This is about a company"},{"startTime":1942.871,"endTime":1946.431,"body":"that's technology driven."},{"startTime":1946.581,"endTime":1949.981,"body":"Whereas sometimes we talk in a"},{"startTime":1946.581,"endTime":1949.981,"body":"broad brush on the agile coaches and"},{"startTime":1949.991,"endTime":1954.351,"body":"others, and they're not necessarily"},{"startTime":1949.991,"endTime":1954.351,"body":"In a technology driven organization,"},{"startTime":1954.501,"endTime":1955.311,"body":"Let me flip to it."},{"startTime":1955.461,"endTime":1958.101,"body":"But yes, in a general sense though,"},{"startTime":1955.461,"endTime":1958.101,"body":"cause that was one of the, one of"},{"startTime":1958.101,"endTime":1961.441,"body":"the recent questions that one of the"},{"startTime":1958.101,"endTime":1961.441,"body":"meetups I was at was how technical"},{"startTime":1961.441,"endTime":1965.041,"body":"should a scrum master or coach, and"},{"startTime":1961.441,"endTime":1965.041,"body":"I think they were scrum master, not"},{"startTime":1965.041,"endTime":1966.721,"body":"coach, but how technical should they be?"},{"startTime":1966.721,"endTime":1970.191,"body":"If you don't, if you're not able to"},{"startTime":1966.721,"endTime":1970.191,"body":"communicate with the stakeholders and"},{"startTime":1970.191,"endTime":1973.881,"body":"you're not able to communicate with the"},{"startTime":1970.191,"endTime":1973.881,"body":"team and you're just pushing messages back"},{"startTime":1973.881,"endTime":1975.241,"body":"and forth, your value is very limited."},{"startTime":1975.391,"endTime":1975.691,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1975.841,"endTime":1977.371,"body":"I'm focusing on two throwaway lines."},{"startTime":1977.371,"endTime":1980.351,"body":"I'm going to turn over my cards right"},{"startTime":1977.371,"endTime":1980.351,"body":"now and show you what I have in my hand"},{"startTime":1980.351,"endTime":1984.291,"body":"which is my problem is not with any of the"},{"startTime":1980.351,"endTime":1984.291,"body":"audience that we've been talking about."},{"startTime":1984.441,"endTime":1987.041,"body":"Product leader who has no"},{"startTime":1984.441,"endTime":1987.041,"body":"product management experience"},{"startTime":1987.091,"endTime":1987.951,"body":"and needs to get help."},{"startTime":1988.261,"endTime":1991.061,"body":"The product leader who knows"},{"startTime":1988.261,"endTime":1991.061,"body":"they need to get help and gets"},{"startTime":1991.061,"endTime":1992.271,"body":"an external coach for their team."},{"startTime":1992.381,"endTime":1995.221,"body":"There was a third persona we haven't"},{"startTime":1992.381,"endTime":1995.221,"body":"talked about yet, which is the one I've"},{"startTime":1995.221,"endTime":1997.521,"body":"interacted with a fair bit in my career."},{"startTime":1997.771,"endTime":2002.331,"body":"And every agile coach has interacted"},{"startTime":1997.771,"endTime":2002.331,"body":"with, I'm a hundred percent certain,"},{"startTime":2002.331,"endTime":2007.051,"body":"which is the quote, product leader,"},{"startTime":2002.331,"endTime":2007.051,"body":"business leader or department leader,"},{"startTime":2007.061,"endTime":2011.151,"body":"whatever you want, who does not have"},{"startTime":2007.061,"endTime":2011.151,"body":"these skills is not  doesn't know"},{"startTime":2011.151,"endTime":2012.051,"body":"that they don't have these skills."},{"startTime":2012.081,"endTime":2014.421,"body":"And it's just like saying, well,"},{"startTime":2012.081,"endTime":2014.421,"body":"why don't you just do it this way?"},{"startTime":2014.571,"endTime":2015.051,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2015.051,"endTime":2017.071,"body":"And like has ways that"},{"startTime":2015.051,"endTime":2017.071,"body":"they want it to be done."},{"startTime":2017.321,"endTime":2019.981,"body":"they think they understand what product"},{"startTime":2017.321,"endTime":2019.981,"body":"discovery is that  I'm going to tell"},{"startTime":2019.981,"endTime":2023.321,"body":"you, I know what the customer needs is"},{"startTime":2019.981,"endTime":2023.321,"body":"not doing anything that Martin Cagan"},{"startTime":2023.341,"endTime":2025.041,"body":"describes in either inspired or this book."},{"startTime":2025.191,"endTime":2028.731,"body":"You know tech leads often fall into"},{"startTime":2025.191,"endTime":2028.731,"body":"this in large programs where they"},{"startTime":2028.731,"endTime":2032.641,"body":"have real strong opinions that are"},{"startTime":2028.731,"endTime":2032.641,"body":"based in, I don't know, things?"},{"startTime":2032.791,"endTime":2034.421,"body":"It's opinions, I guess?"},{"startTime":2034.571,"endTime":2034.791,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2034.841,"endTime":2036.111,"body":"I call them assumptions."},{"startTime":2036.281,"endTime":2039.971,"body":"But the school teachers, I know"},{"startTime":2036.281,"endTime":2039.971,"body":"exactly, when you say school teacher,"},{"startTime":2039.971,"endTime":2043.221,"body":"I know exactly, we have a question, we"},{"startTime":2039.971,"endTime":2043.221,"body":"have a great question on the podcast."},{"startTime":2043.371,"endTime":2046.511,"body":"That is it's what, what makes"},{"startTime":2043.371,"endTime":2046.511,"body":"you think dot, dot, dot."},{"startTime":2046.851,"endTime":2050.261,"body":"So you'll say something and"},{"startTime":2046.851,"endTime":2050.261,"body":"it's  oh, Ed, you say , you can't"},{"startTime":2050.261,"endTime":2051.626,"body":"coach me in product discovery."},{"startTime":2051.946,"endTime":2054.276,"body":"Because you've never done"},{"startTime":2051.946,"endTime":2054.276,"body":"product discovery in your career,"},{"startTime":2054.276,"endTime":2055.056,"body":"you're not an expert at it."},{"startTime":2055.086,"endTime":2058.076,"body":"What makes you think that a non"},{"startTime":2055.086,"endTime":2058.076,"body":"expert, you can't learn anything"},{"startTime":2058.076,"endTime":2058.896,"body":"from about product discovery?"},{"startTime":2058.986,"endTime":2063.706,"body":"They have a way of asking things that"},{"startTime":2058.986,"endTime":2063.706,"body":"kind of dig and also kind of make"},{"startTime":2063.706,"endTime":2065.046,"body":"you question your entire existence."},{"startTime":2065.046,"endTime":2069.686,"body":"Well, I'm a consumer of product in"},{"startTime":2065.046,"endTime":2069.686,"body":"a way that I pretty much anything"},{"startTime":2069.686,"endTime":2071.036,"body":"that's above a certain price range."},{"startTime":2071.036,"endTime":2074.466,"body":"I do a lot of research on and"},{"startTime":2071.036,"endTime":2074.466,"body":"so I don't need a salesperson"},{"startTime":2074.616,"endTime":2076.116,"body":"and I can outsell a salesperson."},{"startTime":2076.266,"endTime":2082.436,"body":"So I, from that standpoint as a customer"},{"startTime":2076.266,"endTime":2082.436,"body":"I believe I've done my product discovery."},{"startTime":2082.476,"endTime":2085.876,"body":"I've compared your competitors,"},{"startTime":2082.476,"endTime":2085.876,"body":"I've done my research."},{"startTime":2086.026,"endTime":2088.316,"body":"And so I would say that there"},{"startTime":2086.026,"endTime":2088.316,"body":"are folks out there that."},{"startTime":2088.656,"endTime":2092.696,"body":"May not have professional product"},{"startTime":2088.656,"endTime":2092.696,"body":"discovery experience, but in the"},{"startTime":2092.696,"endTime":2097.276,"body":"right organization, sometimes the"},{"startTime":2092.696,"endTime":2097.276,"body":"customer would make a great hire."},{"startTime":2097.576,"endTime":2101.276,"body":"I wanna pivot to a reference from the"},{"startTime":2097.576,"endTime":2101.276,"body":"book that we wrote down in our prep."},{"startTime":2101.326,"endTime":2103.206,"body":"Page 52, the tech lead is"},{"startTime":2101.326,"endTime":2103.206,"body":"charged with delivery, the"},{"startTime":2103.206,"endTime":2105.346,"body":"Holy Trinity of the designer."},{"startTime":2105.391,"endTime":2110.261,"body":"And the product manager in this"},{"startTime":2105.391,"endTime":2110.261,"body":"book, I think the tech lead got"},{"startTime":2110.291,"endTime":2114.501,"body":"kind of subbed out for the random"},{"startTime":2110.291,"endTime":2114.501,"body":"faceless developer slash engineer."},{"startTime":2114.501,"endTime":2117.271,"body":"I think it became a, they got an"},{"startTime":2114.501,"endTime":2117.271,"body":"actual name to role in this book."},{"startTime":2117.611,"endTime":2118.531,"body":"I could be wrong about that."},{"startTime":2118.531,"endTime":2121.951,"body":"I have to go back to inspire to check,"},{"startTime":2118.531,"endTime":2121.951,"body":"but he says the tech lead is charged"},{"startTime":2121.951,"endTime":2127.381,"body":"with delivery, Which is in addition"},{"startTime":2121.951,"endTime":2127.381,"body":"to feasibility of the four risks."},{"startTime":2127.531,"endTime":2130.591,"body":"Yeah, they're responsible for the"},{"startTime":2127.531,"endTime":2130.591,"body":"feasibility risk and they're overall"},{"startTime":2130.611,"endTime":2133.101,"body":"accountable for the product's delivery."},{"startTime":2133.251,"endTime":2134.501,"body":"Is that the tech lead or the developer?"},{"startTime":2134.551,"endTime":2135.841,"body":"That's the tech lead."},{"startTime":2135.991,"endTime":2136.371,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2136.401,"endTime":2139.371,"body":"So of the Trinity, it's product"},{"startTime":2136.401,"endTime":2139.371,"body":"manager, product designer, tech lead."},{"startTime":2139.371,"endTime":2140.581,"body":"The Triumvirate."},{"startTime":2140.731,"endTime":2140.921,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2141.071,"endTime":2142.501,"body":"Ooh, Triumvirate, I like that one."},{"startTime":2142.761,"endTime":2146.311,"body":"I like Holy Trinity better, but"},{"startTime":2142.761,"endTime":2146.311,"body":"Triumvirate's a strong contender."},{"startTime":2146.461,"endTime":2152.971,"body":"So, yes, they, somehow I have never"},{"startTime":2146.461,"endTime":2152.971,"body":"experienced this in a way that made"},{"startTime":2152.981,"endTime":2156.811,"body":"me successful, that the tech lead was"},{"startTime":2152.981,"endTime":2156.811,"body":"overall accountable for product delivery."},{"startTime":2156.961,"endTime":2157.471,"body":"How about you?"},{"startTime":2157.471,"endTime":2159.821,"body":"Have you ever experienced where you"},{"startTime":2157.471,"endTime":2159.821,"body":"were successful with a tech lead"},{"startTime":2159.821,"endTime":2160.711,"body":"and you're responsible for delivery?"},{"startTime":2160.711,"endTime":2161.491,"body":"I have not."},{"startTime":2161.501,"endTime":2163.031,"body":"What I have experienced, I'm sorry."},{"startTime":2163.031,"endTime":2163.611,"body":"I used the wrong word."},{"startTime":2163.631,"endTime":2167.851,"body":"Accountable, definitely not accountable"},{"startTime":2163.631,"endTime":2167.851,"body":"for their, their accountable for moving"},{"startTime":2167.851,"endTime":2172.201,"body":"backlog items at the most and, and"},{"startTime":2167.851,"endTime":2172.201,"body":"working with the teams and approving"},{"startTime":2172.241,"endTime":2174.271,"body":"PR requests, basically, what about you?"},{"startTime":2174.291,"endTime":2176.161,"body":"Have you come across that in your career?"},{"startTime":2176.431,"endTime":2177.201,"body":"I'm accountable."},{"startTime":2177.411,"endTime":2180.241,"body":"You're accountable, product"},{"startTime":2177.411,"endTime":2180.241,"body":"manager, one finger in the air."},{"startTime":2180.351,"endTime":2184.111,"body":"I, no, nobody goes and gets the tech"},{"startTime":2180.351,"endTime":2184.111,"body":"lead and says, How come you guys missed"},{"startTime":2184.131,"endTime":2186.151,"body":"this date or how come this didn't work?"},{"startTime":2186.151,"endTime":2186.881,"body":"Or how come this blew up?"},{"startTime":2186.931,"endTime":2188.071,"body":"No, no, they come get me."},{"startTime":2188.361,"endTime":2189.631,"body":"They don't get the, yeah."},{"startTime":2189.631,"endTime":2192.491,"body":"When I heard the emphasis on tech lead"},{"startTime":2189.631,"endTime":2192.491,"body":"in this book, I was already on the fence"},{"startTime":2192.491,"endTime":2193.931,"body":"about, well what are we doing here?"},{"startTime":2193.981,"endTime":2195.411,"body":"Are we designating this?"},{"startTime":2195.561,"endTime":2200.061,"body":"Special engineering manager who's not"},{"startTime":2195.561,"endTime":2200.061,"body":"quite paid as a manager, but sort of"},{"startTime":2200.061,"endTime":2202.081,"body":"is more responsible than a team lead."},{"startTime":2202.191,"endTime":2203.151,"body":"I do want to say something though."},{"startTime":2203.151,"endTime":2205.701,"body":"I do want to say I think it's necessary."},{"startTime":2205.851,"endTime":2209.811,"body":"There's been many times in my career"},{"startTime":2205.851,"endTime":2209.811,"body":"where I felt like the development"},{"startTime":2209.811,"endTime":2212.131,"body":"team were, was not helping."},{"startTime":2212.141,"endTime":2213.811,"body":"They were not helping their team."},{"startTime":2213.881,"endTime":2218.591,"body":"They weren't helping the company"},{"startTime":2213.881,"endTime":2218.591,"body":"because they sat back and"},{"startTime":2218.591,"endTime":2220.541,"body":"said, all I do is deliver code."},{"startTime":2220.741,"endTime":2222.231,"body":"All I do is write code."},{"startTime":2222.381,"endTime":2224.561,"body":"Tell me what you want"},{"startTime":2222.381,"endTime":2224.561,"body":"and I'll do that for you."},{"startTime":2224.711,"endTime":2225.001,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2225.011,"endTime":2229.191,"body":"The order taking, not taking"},{"startTime":2225.011,"endTime":2229.191,"body":"ownership of what they do."},{"startTime":2229.201,"endTime":2233.521,"body":"Back to an earlier comment is what you"},{"startTime":2229.201,"endTime":2233.521,"body":"do on your daily basis is your product."},{"startTime":2233.581,"endTime":2235.821,"body":"And there's been times I"},{"startTime":2233.581,"endTime":2235.821,"body":"haven't done a good job."},{"startTime":2236.081,"endTime":2237.341,"body":"Now, I tried."},{"startTime":2237.491,"endTime":2240.481,"body":"I wanted to do a good job, but whatever"},{"startTime":2237.491,"endTime":2240.481,"body":"the circumstance was, I didn't."},{"startTime":2240.531,"endTime":2243.321,"body":"that's a pushing back from"},{"startTime":2240.531,"endTime":2243.321,"body":"accountability that I just heard"},{"startTime":2243.321,"endTime":2244.111,"body":"right there in your statement."},{"startTime":2244.161,"endTime":2247.351,"body":"well, you told me what to do"},{"startTime":2244.161,"endTime":2247.351,"body":"push back hard on accountability."},{"startTime":2247.351,"endTime":2248.791,"body":"Like you told me what to do."},{"startTime":2248.971,"endTime":2250.911,"body":"Not my fault that it didn't meet the yeah."},{"startTime":2250.921,"endTime":2251.681,"body":"Woo."},{"startTime":2251.711,"endTime":2251.981,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2251.981,"endTime":2253.661,"body":"But, but now real quick"},{"startTime":2251.981,"endTime":2253.661,"body":"though, real quick."},{"startTime":2253.711,"endTime":2256.191,"body":"Have you ever, have you ever been,"},{"startTime":2253.711,"endTime":2256.191,"body":"I mean, it's a common meme, right?"},{"startTime":2256.191,"endTime":2258.311,"body":"The, the donkey with the loaded wagon."},{"startTime":2258.351,"endTime":2258.661,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":2258.691,"endTime":2259.081,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2259.231,"endTime":2260.331,"body":"Have you experienced that?"},{"startTime":2260.331,"endTime":2261.091,"body":"Cause I, I have."},{"startTime":2261.241,"endTime":2261.471,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2261.501,"endTime":2265.451,"body":"I could not move when that last"},{"startTime":2261.501,"endTime":2265.451,"body":"bag of wheat was thrown on my cart."},{"startTime":2265.601,"endTime":2268.451,"body":"And even though I raised my hand,"},{"startTime":2265.601,"endTime":2268.451,"body":"even though I asked for help, I was"},{"startTime":2268.451,"endTime":2269.951,"body":"still held accountable for delivery."},{"startTime":2270.101,"endTime":2272.641,"body":"So there is a, back to the"},{"startTime":2270.101,"endTime":2272.641,"body":"Andy Grove quote, right?"},{"startTime":2272.641,"endTime":2273.111,"body":"That was the thing."},{"startTime":2273.311,"endTime":2274.201,"body":"There's two reasons."},{"startTime":2274.271,"endTime":2274.951,"body":"You're not motivated."},{"startTime":2274.971,"endTime":2276.471,"body":"I can't touch the ground, man."},{"startTime":2276.621,"endTime":2279.371,"body":"so, I guess this first quote, part"},{"startTime":2276.621,"endTime":2279.371,"body":"of that quote, I don't know how"},{"startTime":2279.371,"endTime":2280.501,"body":"to touch the ground at the moment."},{"startTime":2280.651,"endTime":2281.311,"body":"I asked for help."},{"startTime":2281.311,"endTime":2282.191,"body":"No one's unloading me."},{"startTime":2282.341,"endTime":2286.251,"body":"there are a lot of people out there, and"},{"startTime":2282.341,"endTime":2286.251,"body":"I think HR departments right now with"},{"startTime":2286.291,"endTime":2289.171,"body":"remote work, globalization of employees."},{"startTime":2289.331,"endTime":2293.301,"body":"if they get hundreds of resumes in"},{"startTime":2289.331,"endTime":2293.301,"body":"the first day of a post and they're"},{"startTime":2293.301,"endTime":2295.531,"body":"stuck trying to figure it out,"},{"startTime":2293.301,"endTime":2295.531,"body":"weed through it, they become the"},{"startTime":2295.531,"endTime":2296.861,"body":"first line of defense for hiring."},{"startTime":2296.861,"endTime":2297.081,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2297.081,"endTime":2299.381,"body":"the hiring manager"},{"startTime":2297.081,"endTime":2299.381,"body":"can't be the first line."},{"startTime":2299.581,"endTime":2301.801,"body":"the HR people don't even try to read that."},{"startTime":2301.851,"endTime":2304.941,"body":"they just look at the metric and then ask"},{"startTime":2301.851,"endTime":2304.941,"body":"the hiring manager how come you haven't"},{"startTime":2304.941,"endTime":2306.301,"body":"read all these hundreds of resumes?"},{"startTime":2306.451,"endTime":2307.821,"body":"They don't read any of those."},{"startTime":2307.841,"endTime":2308.751,"body":"I don't, I don't know who."},{"startTime":2308.901,"endTime":2311.621,"body":"Who is out there on whatever"},{"startTime":2308.901,"endTime":2311.621,"body":"LinkedIn or YouTube or whatever."},{"startTime":2311.621,"endTime":2314.171,"body":"I may be the people that run HR"},{"startTime":2311.621,"endTime":2314.171,"body":"channels telling you that eight"},{"startTime":2314.201,"endTime":2316.881,"body":"like recruiters screen and what, I"},{"startTime":2314.201,"endTime":2316.881,"body":"don't know what jobs they work in."},{"startTime":2316.901,"endTime":2320.401,"body":"I've never worked in a job where I"},{"startTime":2316.901,"endTime":2320.401,"body":"had a professional recruiter screening"},{"startTime":2320.401,"endTime":2324.421,"body":"all the resumes for me, like maybe the"},{"startTime":2320.401,"endTime":2324.421,"body":"largest of large companies that happens"},{"startTime":2324.421,"endTime":2329.021,"body":"in, Oh, I can, I've had it happen where"},{"startTime":2324.421,"endTime":2329.021,"body":"HR took, they took control, yeah, they"},{"startTime":2329.021,"endTime":2332.381,"body":"took control of the role because they"},{"startTime":2329.021,"endTime":2332.381,"body":"wanted to be the first line and I,"},{"startTime":2332.431,"endTime":2335.961,"body":"I've always felt like that's the worst"},{"startTime":2332.431,"endTime":2335.961,"body":"thing you could, especially from a,"},{"startTime":2336.001,"endTime":2341.041,"body":"when you're hiring developers because"},{"startTime":2336.001,"endTime":2341.041,"body":"your HR department is now Your first"},{"startTime":2341.191,"endTime":2343.381,"body":"impression of the company, right?"},{"startTime":2343.411,"endTime":2345.711,"body":"When a developer says,"},{"startTime":2343.411,"endTime":2345.711,"body":"what tech stack do you use?"},{"startTime":2345.781,"endTime":2346.051,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2346.201,"endTime":2347.171,"body":"That's their first question."},{"startTime":2347.511,"endTime":2348.401,"body":"And they're  I don't know."},{"startTime":2348.721,"endTime":2350.021,"body":"It says here, we do this."},{"startTime":2350.061,"endTime":2351.191,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":2351.241,"endTime":2353.201,"body":"They should not be the face"},{"startTime":2351.241,"endTime":2353.201,"body":"of your engineering team."},{"startTime":2353.351,"endTime":2356.771,"body":"Anyway, so I have experienced more than"},{"startTime":2353.351,"endTime":2356.771,"body":"once, but then again, like I haven't"},{"startTime":2356.771,"endTime":2360.441,"body":"worked in monster hundreds and hundreds"},{"startTime":2356.771,"endTime":2360.441,"body":"of thousands of employees can maybe,"},{"startTime":2360.441,"endTime":2364.501,"body":"maybe that's where I've worked in a small"},{"startTime":2360.441,"endTime":2364.501,"body":"organization where they said, here, we'd"},{"startTime":2364.501,"endTime":2365.891,"body":"line these three interviews up for you."},{"startTime":2365.911,"endTime":2367.601,"body":"I didn't ask for those times."},{"startTime":2367.601,"endTime":2369.781,"body":"I didn't ask for these resumes and"},{"startTime":2367.601,"endTime":2369.781,"body":"this is the first time seeing them."},{"startTime":2370.071,"endTime":2372.091,"body":"So yeah, it's back to mindset."},{"startTime":2372.241,"endTime":2374.211,"body":"What's the mindset of the"},{"startTime":2372.241,"endTime":2374.211,"body":"org, what's the mindset of the"},{"startTime":2374.211,"endTime":2375.801,"body":"leaders who's in charge of HR?"},{"startTime":2375.801,"endTime":2379.211,"body":"What's the mindset of leaders who's in"},{"startTime":2375.801,"endTime":2379.211,"body":"charge of the organization as a whole?"},{"startTime":2379.371,"endTime":2382.821,"body":"So, I mean it's sort of a weaving back"},{"startTime":2379.371,"endTime":2382.821,"body":"into the, but let's get back to the tech"},{"startTime":2382.851,"endTime":2384.291,"body":"lead being accountable for delivery."},{"startTime":2384.441,"endTime":2388.201,"body":"When I was a manager back in the dark"},{"startTime":2384.441,"endTime":2388.201,"body":"times no, when I was a manager I was"},{"startTime":2388.201,"endTime":2391.801,"body":"partnered with a few recruiters that"},{"startTime":2388.201,"endTime":2391.801,"body":"they, they very well understood of the"},{"startTime":2392.081,"endTime":2397.031,"body":"corporate headhunters that recruited"},{"startTime":2392.081,"endTime":2397.031,"body":"specifically and only for highly technical"},{"startTime":2397.051,"endTime":2399.051,"body":"development, QA engineering type of roles."},{"startTime":2399.201,"endTime":2402.421,"body":"And they could definitely speak the"},{"startTime":2399.201,"endTime":2402.421,"body":"language they wouldn't get lost in a"},{"startTime":2402.421,"endTime":2405.901,"body":"technical, or not architectural technical"},{"startTime":2402.421,"endTime":2405.901,"body":"discussion,  career wise tech skills."},{"startTime":2406.051,"endTime":2408.901,"body":"Could understand because they got"},{"startTime":2406.051,"endTime":2408.901,"body":"trained in that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2408.901,"endTime":2412.221,"body":"So again, it goes back to my, you just"},{"startTime":2408.901,"endTime":2412.221,"body":"went to an external recruiter though."},{"startTime":2412.521,"endTime":2413.101,"body":"I did."},{"startTime":2413.151,"endTime":2415.471,"body":"I'm talking about also in"},{"startTime":2413.151,"endTime":2415.471,"body":"the internal HR department."},{"startTime":2415.481,"endTime":2416.681,"body":"So this is my job."},{"startTime":2416.681,"endTime":2417.781,"body":"I'm taking it again."},{"startTime":2417.781,"endTime":2421.151,"body":"they've decided the internal,"},{"startTime":2417.781,"endTime":2421.151,"body":"I assume it was a decision."},{"startTime":2421.301,"endTime":2425.441,"body":"I assume it was the decision because the"},{"startTime":2421.301,"endTime":2425.441,"body":"other end of that is, you just, it sounds"},{"startTime":2425.441,"endTime":2428.331,"body":"cynical when I say it out loud, it's  they"},{"startTime":2425.441,"endTime":2428.331,"body":"haven't intentionally made a decision"},{"startTime":2428.331,"endTime":2429.351,"body":"we're not going to train our people."},{"startTime":2429.501,"endTime":2431.681,"body":"They just decided  eh, it sounds bad."},{"startTime":2431.681,"endTime":2431.921,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2431.921,"endTime":2432.161,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2432.311,"endTime":2435.321,"body":"In actuality, that's probably"},{"startTime":2432.311,"endTime":2435.321,"body":"what's really happening is we're not"},{"startTime":2435.371,"endTime":2438.151,"body":"intentionally going to train our people"},{"startTime":2435.371,"endTime":2438.151,"body":"to speak the language or whatever."},{"startTime":2438.541,"endTime":2441.231,"body":"I mean, I hate to say it, but those"},{"startTime":2438.541,"endTime":2441.231,"body":"are the people I worry about that"},{"startTime":2441.231,"endTime":2443.151,"body":"are at risk to get replaced with AI."},{"startTime":2443.441,"endTime":2449.231,"body":"Anyway, the point is that the headhunters"},{"startTime":2443.441,"endTime":2449.231,"body":"in My example, they had to have better"},{"startTime":2449.251,"endTime":2453.651,"body":"skill of than your normal corporate"},{"startTime":2449.251,"endTime":2453.651,"body":"head like recruiter or whatever, because"},{"startTime":2453.651,"endTime":2455.131,"body":"that's all they did day in, day out."},{"startTime":2455.351,"endTime":2458.231,"body":"your company could have"},{"startTime":2455.351,"endTime":2458.231,"body":"invested in the ability to"},{"startTime":2458.251,"endTime":2459.951,"body":"train your people to understand."},{"startTime":2459.951,"endTime":2464.521,"body":"And, and, and if we, we beat up on HR"},{"startTime":2459.951,"endTime":2464.521,"body":"enough where I don't need to go deeper"},{"startTime":2464.521,"endTime":2466.091,"body":"into this in this podcast, Om knows!"},{"startTime":2466.251,"endTime":2470.591,"body":"If you had certain recruiters that,"},{"startTime":2466.251,"endTime":2470.591,"body":"Only like their job was only to staff"},{"startTime":2470.591,"endTime":2475.671,"body":"certain teams and they got familiar"},{"startTime":2470.591,"endTime":2475.671,"body":"with the team members, team leads hiring"},{"startTime":2475.671,"endTime":2477.061,"body":"managers on the scenes, whatever it is."},{"startTime":2477.361,"endTime":2481.801,"body":"Then they would get like super ultra"},{"startTime":2477.361,"endTime":2481.801,"body":"familiar with the skill sets and the"},{"startTime":2481.801,"endTime":2483.211,"body":"process and the operations of those teams."},{"startTime":2483.411,"endTime":2487.111,"body":"So when the candidate did in the first"},{"startTime":2483.411,"endTime":2487.111,"body":"round interview or the phone screen"},{"startTime":2487.111,"endTime":2489.951,"body":"or something, when the candidate did"},{"startTime":2487.111,"endTime":2489.951,"body":"ask questions about those teams and"},{"startTime":2489.951,"endTime":2491.301,"body":"their processes and the technologies."},{"startTime":2491.451,"endTime":2495.441,"body":"The recruiter, because they only"},{"startTime":2491.451,"endTime":2495.441,"body":"work with those teams, would be able"},{"startTime":2495.441,"endTime":2497.031,"body":"to answer at least at a high level."},{"startTime":2497.041,"endTime":2497.681,"body":"We'll be able to answer."},{"startTime":2497.871,"endTime":2501.101,"body":"that's the same thing"},{"startTime":2497.871,"endTime":2501.101,"body":"conceptually, like sports related."},{"startTime":2501.101,"endTime":2505.811,"body":"we're in the same ballpark as if you're"},{"startTime":2501.101,"endTime":2505.811,"body":"hiring someone to do product management"},{"startTime":2505.961,"endTime":2508.921,"body":"and you're asking them product discovery"},{"startTime":2505.961,"endTime":2508.921,"body":"questions, like you should at least"},{"startTime":2508.931,"endTime":2510.451,"body":"know what the right answers are."},{"startTime":2510.601,"endTime":2511.321,"body":"So I don't know."},{"startTime":2511.581,"endTime":2512.911,"body":"All roads lead back to Rome."},{"startTime":2513.371,"endTime":2517.121,"body":"so to get, to get where you're going, I"},{"startTime":2513.371,"endTime":2517.121,"body":"think, and maybe to help, I'll quote the"},{"startTime":2517.121,"endTime":2519.331,"body":"book cause it, I think it plays into this."},{"startTime":2519.481,"endTime":2522.421,"body":"So product manager is explicitly"},{"startTime":2519.481,"endTime":2522.421,"body":"responsible for ensuring"},{"startTime":2522.421,"endTime":2523.801,"body":"the value and viability."},{"startTime":2523.951,"endTime":2524.281,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2524.431,"endTime":2530.131,"body":"So if to your example earlier of"},{"startTime":2524.431,"endTime":2530.131,"body":"people in charge, are they being held"},{"startTime":2530.131,"endTime":2535.131,"body":"responsible for value and viability or"},{"startTime":2530.131,"endTime":2535.131,"body":"are they just saying do stuff right?"},{"startTime":2535.131,"endTime":2539.731,"body":"So how are they now value requires"},{"startTime":2535.131,"endTime":2539.731,"body":"a deep understanding of your users."},{"startTime":2539.931,"endTime":2544.651,"body":"How is that leader helping understand"},{"startTime":2539.931,"endTime":2544.651,"body":"the users and customers and from"},{"startTime":2544.651,"endTime":2547.501,"body":"a viability standpoint requires a"},{"startTime":2544.651,"endTime":2547.501,"body":"solid understanding of your business."},{"startTime":2547.501,"endTime":2550.581,"body":"Now, I will say that they probably have"},{"startTime":2547.501,"endTime":2550.581,"body":"a solid understanding of the business."},{"startTime":2550.731,"endTime":2551.561,"body":"I would agree with that."},{"startTime":2551.561,"endTime":2555.021,"body":"Cause again, the, the people that play"},{"startTime":2551.561,"endTime":2555.021,"body":"golf with the CEO, Gary, the salesperson"},{"startTime":2555.021,"endTime":2559.971,"body":"who got the chief product job, because"},{"startTime":2555.021,"endTime":2559.971,"body":"they played golf with the CEOs wife's"},{"startTime":2559.971,"endTime":2564.661,"body":"husbands who left them whatever, here's"},{"startTime":2559.971,"endTime":2564.661,"body":"a long story and it has to do with the"},{"startTime":2564.661,"endTime":2568.571,"body":"GME and AMC anyway, where you won't"},{"startTime":2564.661,"endTime":2568.571,"body":"lose them is talking about specific"},{"startTime":2568.581,"endTime":2569.931,"body":"customers and those customers needs."},{"startTime":2569.931,"endTime":2573.911,"body":"Cause he probably coming from sales,"},{"startTime":2569.931,"endTime":2573.911,"body":"he probably is an expert in that."},{"startTime":2574.061,"endTime":2576.131,"body":"Now where he'll come across is I"},{"startTime":2574.061,"endTime":2576.131,"body":"don't understand why you're not"},{"startTime":2576.131,"endTime":2577.251,"body":"building this feature in that feature."},{"startTime":2577.261,"endTime":2579.251,"body":"Cause I know what the customers need."},{"startTime":2579.341,"endTime":2582.641,"body":"A little farther down, just for those"},{"startTime":2579.341,"endTime":2582.641,"body":"following along, we're on page 56."},{"startTime":2582.841,"endTime":2586.111,"body":"But a little bit farther on"},{"startTime":2582.841,"endTime":2586.111,"body":"understanding your business means"},{"startTime":2586.131,"endTime":2589.591,"body":"learning how your product is funded,"},{"startTime":2586.131,"endTime":2589.591,"body":"monetized, that's the sales guy."},{"startTime":2589.741,"endTime":2591.331,"body":"How's it manufactured?"},{"startTime":2591.481,"endTime":2592.501,"body":"Not your sales guy."},{"startTime":2592.651,"endTime":2593.441,"body":"How's it marketed?"},{"startTime":2593.521,"endTime":2594.251,"body":"Eh, maybe."},{"startTime":2594.441,"endTime":2595.071,"body":"How's it sold?"},{"startTime":2595.081,"endTime":2595.681,"body":"Definitely."},{"startTime":2595.691,"endTime":2597.591,"body":"Well, funded is a maybe as well."},{"startTime":2597.631,"endTime":2599.311,"body":"How's it delivered and serviced?"},{"startTime":2599.371,"endTime":2599.721,"body":"Nah."},{"startTime":2599.771,"endTime":2599.871,"body":"no."},{"startTime":2599.951,"endTime":2601.881,"body":"Not in the 80 20 rule, right?"},{"startTime":2602.076,"endTime":2604.206,"body":"So the yes, no was in the 80 20 rule."},{"startTime":2604.426,"endTime":2607.126,"body":"there's definitely a lot of folks"},{"startTime":2604.426,"endTime":2607.126,"body":"out there selling the product."},{"startTime":2607.126,"endTime":2608.336,"body":"They're  Oh, I didn't"},{"startTime":2607.126,"endTime":2608.336,"body":"know you couldn't do that."},{"startTime":2608.336,"endTime":2609.036,"body":"I thought you could."},{"startTime":2609.366,"endTime":2610.126,"body":"Can you make it do that?"},{"startTime":2610.146,"endTime":2610.986,"body":"Because I already sold it."},{"startTime":2611.196,"endTime":2611.466,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2611.466,"endTime":2612.516,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2612.596,"endTime":2614.916,"body":"Well, that's again, that's,"},{"startTime":2612.596,"endTime":2614.916,"body":"that's Gary, the salesperson"},{"startTime":2615.136,"endTime":2616.376,"body":"turned chief product officer."},{"startTime":2616.716,"endTime":2620.846,"body":"He's going to be making deals bringing"},{"startTime":2616.716,"endTime":2620.846,"body":"it back to the product team saying you"},{"startTime":2620.846,"endTime":2623.556,"body":"guys need to implement by this date"},{"startTime":2620.846,"endTime":2623.556,"body":"that I picked out of the essentially"},{"startTime":2623.556,"endTime":2625.486,"body":"a new title, but same role, right?"},{"startTime":2625.636,"endTime":2626.596,"body":"And same bad behaviors."},{"startTime":2626.726,"endTime":2629.346,"body":"The other thing that Marty Cagan talks"},{"startTime":2626.726,"endTime":2629.346,"body":"about is a high integrity commitments."},{"startTime":2629.436,"endTime":2632.706,"body":"I actually liked his take on high"},{"startTime":2629.436,"endTime":2632.706,"body":"integrity commitments in this book."},{"startTime":2632.706,"endTime":2635.276,"body":"his high integrity commitment is"},{"startTime":2632.706,"endTime":2635.276,"body":"anytime that you need to give a date."},{"startTime":2635.426,"endTime":2637.616,"body":"With a development team we're"},{"startTime":2635.426,"endTime":2637.616,"body":"picking data out of the air."},{"startTime":2637.616,"endTime":2638.786,"body":"We're going to deliver it to the state."},{"startTime":2638.796,"endTime":2640.446,"body":"So let's quote agile"},{"startTime":2638.796,"endTime":2640.446,"body":"again, who gives the date?"},{"startTime":2640.596,"endTime":2641.646,"body":"Cause in the book, right?"},{"startTime":2641.646,"endTime":2644.846,"body":"Once again, it's from a rebranding"},{"startTime":2641.646,"endTime":2644.846,"body":"standpoint, as that's just more agile"},{"startTime":2644.846,"endTime":2646.386,"body":"because no one should give a date."},{"startTime":2646.396,"endTime":2647.876,"body":"No one should give a high"},{"startTime":2646.396,"endTime":2647.876,"body":"integrity commitment."},{"startTime":2648.191,"endTime":2649.876,"body":"Other than the people"},{"startTime":2648.191,"endTime":2649.876,"body":"deliver doing the work."},{"startTime":2649.876,"endTime":2650.236,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":2650.316,"endTime":2650.318,"body":"the work."},{"startTime":2650.531,"endTime":2650.651,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2650.801,"endTime":2651.101,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2651.101,"endTime":2652.271,"body":"So that's another agile take."},{"startTime":2652.271,"endTime":2654.906,"body":"So I was really expected some"},{"startTime":2652.271,"endTime":2654.906,"body":"zingers, but I didn't really see"},{"startTime":2654.906,"endTime":2655.806,"body":"'em 'cause a lot of stuff for me."},{"startTime":2655.806,"endTime":2657.576,"body":"I'm  oh yeah, it makes perfect,"},{"startTime":2655.806,"endTime":2657.576,"body":"oh yeah, that's what we should do."},{"startTime":2657.726,"endTime":2660.126,"body":"I must have skipped all"},{"startTime":2657.726,"endTime":2660.126,"body":"of the early hype cycle."},{"startTime":2660.136,"endTime":2661.756,"body":"Cause I didn't get a lot"},{"startTime":2660.136,"endTime":2661.756,"body":"of negative feedback."},{"startTime":2661.756,"endTime":2662.936,"body":"I didn't see a lot of negative feedback."},{"startTime":2663.236,"endTime":2664.556,"body":"I just had expectations."},{"startTime":2664.556,"endTime":2668.536,"body":"I wanted to see what I feel about the"},{"startTime":2664.556,"endTime":2668.536,"body":"book is I feel he named things very well."},{"startTime":2668.686,"endTime":2673.366,"body":"He put gracefully lifted topics"},{"startTime":2668.686,"endTime":2673.366,"body":"and gave them a good name and"},{"startTime":2673.366,"endTime":2674.536,"body":"categorized them very well."},{"startTime":2674.686,"endTime":2678.526,"body":"I really like the objections"},{"startTime":2674.686,"endTime":2678.526,"body":"section at the end of the book."},{"startTime":2678.676,"endTime":2679.396,"body":"Oh yeah, that was awesome."},{"startTime":2679.456,"endTime":2683.436,"body":"If Marty Cagan could write an"},{"startTime":2679.456,"endTime":2683.436,"body":"episode of Arguing Agile, it was"},{"startTime":2683.436,"endTime":2684.566,"body":"that whole section right there."},{"startTime":2684.566,"endTime":2687.626,"body":"I was  wow, he just nailed"},{"startTime":2684.566,"endTime":2687.626,"body":"our podcast theme right here."},{"startTime":2687.656,"endTime":2688.796,"body":"Picked every role and gave an argument."},{"startTime":2688.796,"endTime":2689.196,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2689.206,"endTime":2692.266,"body":"He picked every role, he gave the"},{"startTime":2689.206,"endTime":2692.266,"body":"typical objections you'll hear,"},{"startTime":2692.266,"endTime":2693.081,"body":"and then he gave them the argument."},{"startTime":2693.161,"endTime":2694.261,"body":"And he gave you the response."},{"startTime":2694.311,"endTime":2696.321,"body":"So since you were talking about, since"},{"startTime":2694.311,"endTime":2696.321,"body":"you're talking about hiring people,"},{"startTime":2696.321,"endTime":2697.601,"body":"I want to read this section here."},{"startTime":2697.601,"endTime":2700.221,"body":"And that was look for people with"},{"startTime":2697.601,"endTime":2700.221,"body":"a broad understanding of business"},{"startTime":2700.331,"endTime":2702.941,"body":"and the proven ability to quickly"},{"startTime":2700.331,"endTime":2702.941,"body":"learn other parts of the business."},{"startTime":2703.271,"endTime":2706.771,"body":"Look for people who are comfortable"},{"startTime":2703.271,"endTime":2706.771,"body":"immersing in the data to understand"},{"startTime":2706.771,"endTime":2707.731,"body":"the behavior and the trends."},{"startTime":2707.961,"endTime":2711.771,"body":"Look for people who want to get face"},{"startTime":2707.961,"endTime":2711.771,"body":"to face with real users and customers."},{"startTime":2712.011,"endTime":2714.901,"body":"Look for people who are willing"},{"startTime":2712.011,"endTime":2714.901,"body":"to roll up their sleeves around a"},{"startTime":2714.901,"endTime":2716.951,"body":"whiteboard with designers and engineers."},{"startTime":2717.146,"endTime":2721.166,"body":"So definitely when we're talking about"},{"startTime":2717.146,"endTime":2721.166,"body":"who belongs on the team, it's the, you're"},{"startTime":2721.166,"endTime":2726.176,"body":"looking for those people, not necessarily"},{"startTime":2721.166,"endTime":2726.176,"body":"who have all the things you need right"},{"startTime":2726.176,"endTime":2732.406,"body":"now, but who have the mindset behaviors,"},{"startTime":2726.176,"endTime":2732.406,"body":"abilities to learn something new, to"},{"startTime":2732.436,"endTime":2736.266,"body":"come in and provide value, understand"},{"startTime":2732.436,"endTime":2736.266,"body":"what you're selling, have some pedigree"},{"startTime":2736.266,"endTime":2737.866,"body":"of what you're trying to accomplish."},{"startTime":2737.866,"endTime":2738.106,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2738.306,"endTime":2740.186,"body":"you're not going to make your"},{"startTime":2738.306,"endTime":2740.186,"body":"junior developer your tech lead."},{"startTime":2740.256,"endTime":2744.246,"body":"It makes sense from a standpoint of this"},{"startTime":2740.256,"endTime":2744.246,"body":"is where you're going toward, right?"},{"startTime":2744.596,"endTime":2747.926,"body":"So you won't get there now just by"},{"startTime":2744.596,"endTime":2747.926,"body":"reading the book, but you'll have"},{"startTime":2747.926,"endTime":2750.616,"body":"to do all of these things to try"},{"startTime":2747.926,"endTime":2750.616,"body":"and move in the right direction."},{"startTime":2750.676,"endTime":2753.726,"body":"that said, how long does it take for"},{"startTime":2750.676,"endTime":2753.726,"body":"this transformation to occur, right?"},{"startTime":2753.726,"endTime":2754.866,"body":"Six months to two years."},{"startTime":2755.016,"endTime":2756.476,"body":"There's a lot happening in the business."},{"startTime":2756.711,"endTime":2761.711,"body":"As you're trying to move the needle and"},{"startTime":2756.711,"endTime":2761.711,"body":"transform product mindset transformation"},{"startTime":2761.861,"endTime":2763.691,"body":"that back to product discovery."},{"startTime":2763.841,"endTime":2766.771,"body":"It's going to, I believe it takes"},{"startTime":2763.841,"endTime":2766.771,"body":"longer than six months to put in a"},{"startTime":2766.771,"endTime":2769.511,"body":"new product discovery technique in"},{"startTime":2766.771,"endTime":2769.511,"body":"an organization that already exists."},{"startTime":2769.711,"endTime":2771.641,"body":"If it's a new organization,"},{"startTime":2769.711,"endTime":2771.641,"body":"you're starting from Greenfield."},{"startTime":2771.791,"endTime":2774.511,"body":"You know, you could set the"},{"startTime":2771.791,"endTime":2774.511,"body":"processes in place from day one."},{"startTime":2774.661,"endTime":2779.291,"body":"But if you've been around for 5, 10,"},{"startTime":2774.661,"endTime":2779.291,"body":"15 years, and you've got to unlearn and"},{"startTime":2779.291,"endTime":2782.791,"body":"keep the machine moving, it's already"},{"startTime":2779.291,"endTime":2782.791,"body":"underway, it's going to take some time."},{"startTime":2782.871,"endTime":2786.131,"body":"Yeah, that is one of the things that kind"},{"startTime":2782.871,"endTime":2786.131,"body":"of surprised me with this book, is he was"},{"startTime":2786.131,"endTime":2790.481,"body":"even willing to give timelines for this"},{"startTime":2786.131,"endTime":2790.481,"body":"kind of stuff, rather than saying you need"},{"startTime":2790.481,"endTime":2794.941,"body":"to break down the, basically you need to"},{"startTime":2790.481,"endTime":2794.941,"body":"put up scaffolding around your company,"},{"startTime":2795.091,"endTime":2798.421,"body":"Deconstruct the pieces that are built in"},{"startTime":2795.091,"endTime":2798.421,"body":"this old way and reconstruct them around"},{"startTime":2798.421,"endTime":2801.991,"body":"the scaffolding of the new way and it's"},{"startTime":2798.421,"endTime":2801.991,"body":"not a transformation It's like that's"},{"startTime":2802.031,"endTime":2804.871,"body":"that's you're rebuilding the business"},{"startTime":2802.031,"endTime":2804.871,"body":"and that's the way it's gonna be forever"},{"startTime":2805.021,"endTime":2807.981,"body":"so I looked at my notes over here and"},{"startTime":2805.021,"endTime":2807.981,"body":"and scroll a little bit further I did"},{"startTime":2807.981,"endTime":2811.261,"body":"realize there was one one thing that"},{"startTime":2807.981,"endTime":2811.261,"body":"I didn't hear in the book that I was"},{"startTime":2811.261,"endTime":2814.521,"body":"let down by not hearing and that is You"},{"startTime":2811.261,"endTime":2814.521,"body":"know to quote the the movie World War"},{"startTime":2814.521,"endTime":2816.346,"body":"Z the devil's advocate, the 10th man."},{"startTime":2816.496,"endTime":2819.576,"body":"I really wanted a 10th man role to be in"},{"startTime":2816.496,"endTime":2819.576,"body":"here somewhere from a product standpoint"},{"startTime":2819.586,"endTime":2822.866,"body":"where no matter what the business asks"},{"startTime":2819.586,"endTime":2822.866,"body":"you to build, there was someone out there"},{"startTime":2822.866,"endTime":2826.491,"body":"like looking at why that's not a good"},{"startTime":2822.866,"endTime":2826.491,"body":"idea, why that might fail, where, where's"},{"startTime":2826.491,"endTime":2831.311,"body":"the contrarian dissenting opinion when"},{"startTime":2826.491,"endTime":2831.311,"body":"it comes to product management, right?"},{"startTime":2831.561,"endTime":2833.731,"body":"I love a devil's advocate"},{"startTime":2831.561,"endTime":2833.731,"body":"and I love the 10th man role."},{"startTime":2833.751,"endTime":2836.991,"body":"Well, you should, I mean, if you're, it"},{"startTime":2833.751,"endTime":2836.991,"body":"depends on how you do product discovery,"},{"startTime":2837.081,"endTime":2840.651,"body":"like again, this should be a welcome to"},{"startTime":2837.081,"endTime":2840.651,"body":"another feature podcast, product discovery"},{"startTime":2840.651,"endTime":2841.851,"body":"should be its own podcast for us."},{"startTime":2842.001,"endTime":2845.401,"body":"Because  syncing product discovery"},{"startTime":2842.001,"endTime":2845.401,"body":"with what Marty Kagan says product"},{"startTime":2845.401,"endTime":2849.911,"body":"discovery should be with what you can"},{"startTime":2845.401,"endTime":2849.911,"body":"do on a real what you can really do."},{"startTime":2850.061,"endTime":2852.301,"body":"I mean, what is really possible"},{"startTime":2850.061,"endTime":2852.301,"body":"in a normal organization."},{"startTime":2852.451,"endTime":2855.091,"body":"Or how you get there, maybe"},{"startTime":2852.451,"endTime":2855.091,"body":"how you transition from doing"},{"startTime":2855.091,"endTime":2856.421,"body":"nothing to actually doing it."},{"startTime":2856.571,"endTime":2857.721,"body":"It could be its own podcast."},{"startTime":2857.721,"endTime":2859.591,"body":"I could probably think of"},{"startTime":2857.721,"endTime":2859.591,"body":"a pretty good scaffolding."},{"startTime":2859.611,"endTime":2860.361,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":2860.381,"endTime":2863.441,"body":"And when it comes to who should be"},{"startTime":2860.381,"endTime":2863.441,"body":"doing product discovery, right back"},{"startTime":2863.441,"endTime":2867.571,"body":"to his one, one 10 model how many,"},{"startTime":2863.441,"endTime":2867.571,"body":"how many teams have you been on that"},{"startTime":2867.571,"endTime":2870.311,"body":"actually had a product designer, right?"},{"startTime":2870.621,"endTime":2874.351,"body":"But if you're talking about customer"},{"startTime":2870.621,"endTime":2874.351,"body":"experience, what's the customer"},{"startTime":2874.671,"endTime":2877.981,"body":"experience, those people are really"},{"startTime":2874.671,"endTime":2877.981,"body":"who should be doing your discovery"},{"startTime":2877.981,"endTime":2880.421,"body":"because they should understand the"},{"startTime":2877.981,"endTime":2880.421,"body":"experience more than anyone else."},{"startTime":2880.571,"endTime":2881.291,"body":"Well, it did."},{"startTime":2881.441,"endTime":2884.951,"body":"Boy, there's a, treating the designer,"},{"startTime":2881.441,"endTime":2884.951,"body":"like kind of patronizing the designer"},{"startTime":2885.101,"endTime":2889.271,"body":"to say just make what the development"},{"startTime":2885.101,"endTime":2889.271,"body":"team did look pretty versus getting"},{"startTime":2889.271,"endTime":2894.441,"body":"behind the designer and saying, how can"},{"startTime":2889.271,"endTime":2894.441,"body":"we improve the experience of the user?"},{"startTime":2894.591,"endTime":2897.541,"body":"Boy, you hire a strong tech lead or"},{"startTime":2894.591,"endTime":2897.541,"body":"you go through this transformation"},{"startTime":2897.541,"endTime":2901.691,"body":"and you bring up one of your current,"},{"startTime":2897.541,"endTime":2901.691,"body":"People into the role of tech lead."},{"startTime":2901.861,"endTime":2905.951,"body":"I've seen more than once at more"},{"startTime":2901.861,"endTime":2905.951,"body":"than one place that I've been at."},{"startTime":2906.101,"endTime":2910.291,"body":"I've seen the tech lead really dig their"},{"startTime":2906.101,"endTime":2910.291,"body":"heels in and resist this kind of thing."},{"startTime":2910.291,"endTime":2911.031,"body":"I've seen tech leads."},{"startTime":2911.281,"endTime":2912.881,"body":"In fact, that was one of the"},{"startTime":2911.281,"endTime":2912.881,"body":"things we were talking about"},{"startTime":2912.881,"endTime":2914.331,"body":"before the podcast is tech leads."},{"startTime":2914.671,"endTime":2917.311,"body":"I've seen tech leads who are"},{"startTime":2914.671,"endTime":2917.311,"body":"they're just a train wreck."},{"startTime":2917.341,"endTime":2920.951,"body":"They're just a ball of negativity"},{"startTime":2917.341,"endTime":2920.951,"body":"and chaos that are fighting,"},{"startTime":2920.951,"endTime":2923.801,"body":"kicking, and screaming this whole"},{"startTime":2920.951,"endTime":2923.801,"body":"transformation thing all along."},{"startTime":2923.951,"endTime":2925.081,"body":"And leadership knows it."},{"startTime":2925.231,"endTime":2927.241,"body":"They just, that person has"},{"startTime":2925.231,"endTime":2927.241,"body":"too much tribal knowledge."},{"startTime":2927.241,"endTime":2929.091,"body":"They're not willing to make a move."},{"startTime":2929.091,"endTime":2930.631,"body":"I don't I almost didn't"},{"startTime":2929.091,"endTime":2930.631,"body":"want to bring up this late."},{"startTime":2930.641,"endTime":2932.141,"body":"Yeah, that one's too personal for me."},{"startTime":2932.291,"endTime":2933.711,"body":"I'd be I can't."},{"startTime":2933.861,"endTime":2934.701,"body":"Yeah, that one."},{"startTime":2934.851,"endTime":2936.581,"body":"Oh, you have too many stories."},{"startTime":2936.581,"endTime":2938.551,"body":"Too many stories come to mind."},{"startTime":2938.791,"endTime":2941.091,"body":"Oh, you can't, oh tech"},{"startTime":2938.791,"endTime":2941.091,"body":"Lead Horror Stories."},{"startTime":2941.091,"endTime":2942.291,"body":"Is that another podcast I writing there?"},{"startTime":2942.441,"endTime":2943.371,"body":"Tech lead Horror stories?"},{"startTime":2943.371,"endTime":2943.821,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":2943.941,"endTime":2944.651,"body":"I like that one."},{"startTime":2944.661,"endTime":2946.371,"body":"That one's a future podcast for certain."},{"startTime":2946.371,"endTime":2947.221,"body":"Tech lead horror stories."},{"startTime":2947.341,"endTime":2951.751,"body":"Future podcasts on platform teams, future"},{"startTime":2947.341,"endTime":2951.751,"body":"podcasts on tech lead horror stories."},{"startTime":2951.911,"endTime":2952.551,"body":"Product discovery."},{"startTime":2952.561,"endTime":2953.201,"body":"Product discovery."},{"startTime":2953.351,"endTime":2956.891,"body":"Which, there's a, do another, I"},{"startTime":2953.351,"endTime":2956.891,"body":"mean, add another book to the, to the"},{"startTime":2956.891,"endTime":2959.791,"body":"story, which is I think it's called"},{"startTime":2956.891,"endTime":2959.791,"body":"Shape Up by the base camp group."},{"startTime":2960.041,"endTime":2962.961,"body":"Shape Up does a great job and"},{"startTime":2960.041,"endTime":2962.961,"body":"it's available online for free."},{"startTime":2962.976,"endTime":2967.606,"body":"to read or you can buy the printed copy,"},{"startTime":2962.976,"endTime":2967.606,"body":"which I did is it's a phenomenal book"},{"startTime":2967.606,"endTime":2971.326,"body":"to reference, they do a great job of"},{"startTime":2967.606,"endTime":2971.326,"body":"working with the designer, providing"},{"startTime":2971.326,"endTime":2975.926,"body":"low fidelity drawings and ideas of what"},{"startTime":2971.326,"endTime":2975.926,"body":"you think you want, and then allowing"},{"startTime":2975.926,"endTime":2980.646,"body":"the designer to use that low fidelity to"},{"startTime":2975.926,"endTime":2980.646,"body":"then use their skillset to come up with"},{"startTime":2980.646,"endTime":2981.996,"body":"something that's a little more meaningful."},{"startTime":2982.296,"endTime":2984.756,"body":"Whereas if you give them something that's"},{"startTime":2982.296,"endTime":2984.756,"body":"high fidelity, they're already working"},{"startTime":2984.756,"endTime":2985.996,"body":"within the constraints of what you drew."},{"startTime":2986.146,"endTime":2989.066,"body":"So, and there's so many other"},{"startTime":2986.146,"endTime":2989.066,"body":"great topics in there in that"},{"startTime":2989.066,"endTime":2989.956,"body":"book that's worth reading."},{"startTime":2990.036,"endTime":2992.836,"body":"Oh, and there's one more future"},{"startTime":2990.036,"endTime":2992.836,"body":"podcast in our list here, Om"},{"startTime":2992.836,"endTime":2996.896,"body":"versus Marty Cagan subtitle product"},{"startTime":2992.836,"endTime":2996.896,"body":"objections, product objections."},{"startTime":2996.906,"endTime":2999.186,"body":"we're going to read the product"},{"startTime":2996.906,"endTime":2999.186,"body":"objections, we're going to compare"},{"startTime":2999.236,"endTime":3001.106,"body":"Ohm's advice against Marty Cagan advice."},{"startTime":3001.106,"endTime":3002.656,"body":"Here, I'll tell you what,"},{"startTime":3001.106,"endTime":3002.656,"body":"let's do a couple random ones"},{"startTime":3002.656,"endTime":3003.536,"body":"right now, this is a teaser."},{"startTime":3003.736,"endTime":3004.006,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":3004.156,"endTime":3006.653,"body":"These are teasers."},{"startTime":3006.653,"endTime":3008.846,"body":"Alright, let's do this"},{"startTime":3006.653,"endTime":3008.846,"body":"one for Brian first."},{"startTime":3008.846,"endTime":3009.956,"body":"Hold on, and then we'll come back to Om."},{"startTime":3010.006,"endTime":3014.066,"body":"Brian, this is an objection from"},{"startTime":3010.006,"endTime":3014.066,"body":"Line of Business Chapter 39."},{"startTime":3014.136,"endTime":3018.306,"body":"I have P\u0026 L responsibility for the"},{"startTime":3014.136,"endTime":3018.306,"body":"product line, so why should I not have"},{"startTime":3018.306,"endTime":3019.876,"body":"control over the engineering resources?"},{"startTime":3020.026,"endTime":3022.366,"body":"And these are people, not"},{"startTime":3020.026,"endTime":3022.366,"body":"printers, engineering people."},{"startTime":3022.586,"endTime":3025.956,"body":"You shouldn't have the product manager"},{"startTime":3022.586,"endTime":3025.956,"body":"should not you should have the P\u0026 L"},{"startTime":3025.956,"endTime":3029.136,"body":"responsibility, so I don't know why"},{"startTime":3025.956,"endTime":3029.136,"body":"you're misaligned with finance, but you"},{"startTime":3029.136,"endTime":3031.274,"body":"need to get with your product manager"},{"startTime":3029.136,"endTime":3031.274,"body":"and figure out what that might be."},{"startTime":3031.274,"endTime":3033.324,"body":"It's not that difficult"},{"startTime":3031.274,"endTime":3033.324,"body":"to manage finances."},{"startTime":3033.324,"endTime":3034.664,"body":"Figure it out."},{"startTime":3034.964,"endTime":3037.874,"body":"So I know that was not Marty Kagan's"},{"startTime":3034.964,"endTime":3037.874,"body":"response, but Oh, I guess I should have."},{"startTime":3037.914,"endTime":3038.044,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3038.044,"endTime":3038.774,"body":"What was Marty Kagan's?"},{"startTime":3038.824,"endTime":3039.964,"body":"What was his response to that one?"},{"startTime":3040.054,"endTime":3043.074,"body":"You know, the other thing I want to the"},{"startTime":3040.054,"endTime":3043.074,"body":"other thing I would like in a short to"},{"startTime":3043.124,"endTime":3046.964,"body":"to send over to Marty Kagan is I would"},{"startTime":3043.124,"endTime":3046.964,"body":"like to see all of the objections from"},{"startTime":3047.014,"endTime":3050.834,"body":"the stakeholder, the objection that the"},{"startTime":3047.014,"endTime":3050.834,"body":"stakeholder had, and then his answer."},{"startTime":3051.134,"endTime":3054.434,"body":"I would like to see the list of"},{"startTime":3051.134,"endTime":3054.434,"body":"stakeholders and objections for all the"},{"startTime":3054.434,"endTime":3056.194,"body":"ones that are on the cutting room floor."},{"startTime":3056.264,"endTime":3056.514,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3056.664,"endTime":3056.914,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3057.014,"endTime":3058.884,"body":"I would like him to send me that list."},{"startTime":3059.034,"endTime":3062.624,"body":"Marty, send me that list and then"},{"startTime":3059.034,"endTime":3062.624,"body":"that'll be the podcast of the objections."},{"startTime":3062.954,"endTime":3064.034,"body":"This could be a great game."},{"startTime":3064.034,"endTime":3065.174,"body":"Objections from the cutting room floor."},{"startTime":3065.174,"endTime":3067.824,"body":"But there's no question that a line"},{"startTime":3065.174,"endTime":3067.824,"body":"of business manager is a critical"},{"startTime":3067.824,"endTime":3072.574,"body":"partner in the product model in very"},{"startTime":3067.824,"endTime":3072.574,"body":"much the same way the CEO of a startup"},{"startTime":3072.694,"endTime":3075.094,"body":"or scale up plays a critical role."},{"startTime":3075.224,"endTime":3078.984,"body":"But just as a startup CEO would"},{"startTime":3075.224,"endTime":3078.984,"body":"depend on her product and technology"},{"startTime":3078.984,"endTime":3082.794,"body":"leaders, the line of business"},{"startTime":3078.984,"endTime":3082.794,"body":"manager would want to do the same."},{"startTime":3083.019,"endTime":3089.029,"body":"In practice, just as with a startup, many"},{"startTime":3083.019,"endTime":3089.029,"body":"of these most strategic decisions would"},{"startTime":3089.029,"endTime":3093.299,"body":"be done collaboratively, such as product"},{"startTime":3089.029,"endTime":3093.299,"body":"vision, product strategy, and identifying"},{"startTime":3093.299,"endTime":3094.819,"body":"appropriate outcomes for product teams."},{"startTime":3094.969,"endTime":3096.599,"body":"It doesn't say anything"},{"startTime":3094.969,"endTime":3096.599,"body":"about get your money right."},{"startTime":3096.859,"endTime":3099.509,"body":"So you're saying collaborate with the"},{"startTime":3096.859,"endTime":3099.509,"body":"product people to do product things."},{"startTime":3099.669,"endTime":3100.369,"body":"So it sounded like."},{"startTime":3100.369,"endTime":3104.049,"body":"Which is basically what I said, except I,"},{"startTime":3100.369,"endTime":3104.049,"body":"what I said was, turn over your weapons"},{"startTime":3104.049,"endTime":3107.819,"body":"of mass destruction to the product people"},{"startTime":3104.049,"endTime":3107.819,"body":"and then talk nicely to each other."},{"startTime":3107.969,"endTime":3110.109,"body":"But first you got to"},{"startTime":3107.969,"endTime":3110.109,"body":"surrender them weapons."},{"startTime":3110.259,"endTime":3111.249,"body":"Give them a meaty one."},{"startTime":3111.249,"endTime":3113.949,"body":"I want to go right to where the pain"},{"startTime":3111.249,"endTime":3113.949,"body":"points for enterprise agility are."},{"startTime":3113.989,"endTime":3118.019,"body":"I want to go straight to the legacy PMO"},{"startTime":3113.989,"endTime":3118.019,"body":"organization who rebranded themselves"},{"startTime":3118.079,"endTime":3122.559,"body":"as VMO program management or product"},{"startTime":3118.079,"endTime":3122.559,"body":"management, but they're really"},{"startTime":3122.559,"endTime":3124.069,"body":"just packed with project managers."},{"startTime":3124.179,"endTime":3127.694,"body":"I come from the school of thought where"},{"startTime":3124.179,"endTime":3127.694,"body":"everything, is about predictability."},{"startTime":3127.844,"endTime":3131.264,"body":"We need to focus on delivering"},{"startTime":3127.844,"endTime":3131.264,"body":"what we say, when we say."},{"startTime":3131.414,"endTime":3134.274,"body":"We let the business leaders"},{"startTime":3131.414,"endTime":3134.274,"body":"worry about what gets built."},{"startTime":3134.564,"endTime":3138.124,"body":"And we focus on being a reliable"},{"startTime":3134.564,"endTime":3138.124,"body":"and trustworthy machine for"},{"startTime":3138.124,"endTime":3139.554,"body":"delivering what is requested."},{"startTime":3139.704,"endTime":3140.254,"body":"Classic."},{"startTime":3140.284,"endTime":3143.194,"body":"So this is definitely in"},{"startTime":3140.284,"endTime":3143.194,"body":"the wheelhouse of a PMO."},{"startTime":3143.394,"endTime":3146.474,"body":"We've got to standardize everything,"},{"startTime":3143.394,"endTime":3146.474,"body":"first of all, so PMOs do."},{"startTime":3146.814,"endTime":3149.064,"body":"And then when we have new people"},{"startTime":3146.814,"endTime":3149.064,"body":"coming, we just hand them a book"},{"startTime":3149.094,"endTime":3151.024,"body":"that says how you do projects."},{"startTime":3151.034,"endTime":3153.524,"body":"So, yeah, we need to be predictable."},{"startTime":3153.674,"endTime":3157.364,"body":"They're losing sight of the fact that"},{"startTime":3153.674,"endTime":3157.364,"body":"everything you're delivering is unique."},{"startTime":3157.514,"endTime":3160.034,"body":"If you have multiple products"},{"startTime":3157.514,"endTime":3160.034,"body":"how do you become an expert at"},{"startTime":3160.244,"endTime":3162.864,"body":"becoming predictable in this sense?"},{"startTime":3163.154,"endTime":3164.244,"body":"Well, there's only one way."},{"startTime":3164.484,"endTime":3167.984,"body":"And that is, plan everything out"},{"startTime":3164.484,"endTime":3167.984,"body":"up front, So we're now squarely"},{"startTime":3168.004,"endTime":3169.154,"body":"into the waterfall world."},{"startTime":3169.304,"endTime":3173.254,"body":"Plan everything out up front and tell"},{"startTime":3169.304,"endTime":3173.254,"body":"the customer when they can have something"},{"startTime":3173.404,"endTime":3177.374,"body":"That's classic PMO and it doesn't matter"},{"startTime":3173.404,"endTime":3177.374,"body":"if you're rebranding yourself as a VM."},{"startTime":3177.644,"endTime":3179.744,"body":"Oh, it's called value"},{"startTime":3177.644,"endTime":3179.744,"body":"management or whatever."},{"startTime":3179.744,"endTime":3181.284,"body":"Just these are just plays on words."},{"startTime":3181.549,"endTime":3185.699,"body":"But you're still basically a waterfall"},{"startTime":3181.549,"endTime":3185.699,"body":"project management organization."},{"startTime":3185.759,"endTime":3186.399,"body":"That's what you are."},{"startTime":3186.449,"endTime":3188.949,"body":"But in a product organization,"},{"startTime":3186.449,"endTime":3188.949,"body":"how are you going to?"},{"startTime":3189.099,"endTime":3192.539,"body":"So how would you pivot away from"},{"startTime":3189.099,"endTime":3192.539,"body":"that if you're a PMO, right, already?"},{"startTime":3192.589,"endTime":3195.739,"body":"one of the things to acknowledge"},{"startTime":3192.589,"endTime":3195.739,"body":"is you're not really in charge"},{"startTime":3195.739,"endTime":3196.819,"body":"of when you deliver something."},{"startTime":3196.969,"endTime":3200.829,"body":"You're only building stuff and then"},{"startTime":3196.969,"endTime":3200.829,"body":"letting the customers pull value"},{"startTime":3200.829,"endTime":3202.059,"body":"whenever they're ready for it."},{"startTime":3202.209,"endTime":3203.759,"body":"It's a strange concept for PMOs."},{"startTime":3204.029,"endTime":3206.109,"body":"They're really all about delivering."},{"startTime":3206.299,"endTime":3208.199,"body":"Getting to that milestone"},{"startTime":3206.299,"endTime":3208.199,"body":"on the Gantt chart."},{"startTime":3208.389,"endTime":3209.739,"body":"we know what we can build."},{"startTime":3210.049,"endTime":3212.259,"body":"We know how fast we can build"},{"startTime":3210.049,"endTime":3212.259,"body":"it because we have X number of"},{"startTime":3212.259,"endTime":3216.129,"body":"people, So work with the customer"},{"startTime":3212.259,"endTime":3216.129,"body":"to say, when would you like this?"},{"startTime":3216.179,"endTime":3220.289,"body":"And then back into it by either"},{"startTime":3216.179,"endTime":3220.289,"body":"ramping up or ramping down the number"},{"startTime":3220.289,"endTime":3221.649,"body":"of people you have on your dev teams."},{"startTime":3221.869,"endTime":3222.999,"body":"It's definitely a cultural change."},{"startTime":3223.044,"endTime":3226.184,"body":"definitely a huge culture change, putting"},{"startTime":3223.044,"endTime":3226.184,"body":"the customer in the center at that"},{"startTime":3226.184,"endTime":3230.564,"body":"point, rather than pricing predictability"},{"startTime":3226.184,"endTime":3230.564,"body":"for the sake of predictability."},{"startTime":3230.564,"endTime":3233.844,"body":"The book says, because you're getting"},{"startTime":3230.564,"endTime":3233.844,"body":"ready to be ready to respond, Brian this"},{"startTime":3233.844,"endTime":3238.574,"body":"is a good summary of the old model, but in"},{"startTime":3233.844,"endTime":3238.574,"body":"the product model, the focus is no longer"},{"startTime":3238.594,"endTime":3240.664,"body":"on predictability, but rather innovation."},{"startTime":3240.814,"endTime":3244.614,"body":"Predictability is important only if it"},{"startTime":3240.814,"endTime":3244.614,"body":"delivers value to the company depends on"},{"startTime":3246.054,"endTime":3248.244,"body":"uh,  I have no problem with any of that."},{"startTime":3248.244,"endTime":3251.084,"body":"Listen, I, I just, I can't remember"},{"startTime":3248.244,"endTime":3251.084,"body":"who the person is on LinkedIn."},{"startTime":3251.164,"endTime":3253.494,"body":"They have a picture and it says a"},{"startTime":3251.164,"endTime":3253.494,"body":"hundred percent, a hundred percent"},{"startTime":3253.494,"endTime":3255.614,"body":"predictability, zero percent innovation."},{"startTime":3255.764,"endTime":3259.734,"body":"We had a whole podcast on deadlines"},{"startTime":3255.764,"endTime":3259.734,"body":"where I said, I can hit a deadline a"},{"startTime":3259.834,"endTime":3262.084,"body":"hundred percent of the time in agile."},{"startTime":3262.084,"endTime":3266.054,"body":"So don't give me any of this agile"},{"startTime":3262.084,"endTime":3266.054,"body":"teams don't give dates, nonsense We"},{"startTime":3266.054,"endTime":3267.404,"body":"can give a date and I can hit it."},{"startTime":3267.554,"endTime":3269.724,"body":"100 percent of the time, I mean,"},{"startTime":3267.554,"endTime":3269.724,"body":"what you're going to get in"},{"startTime":3269.724,"endTime":3271.304,"body":"there might not be satisfactory."},{"startTime":3271.334,"endTime":3275.084,"body":"It might not meet anyone's user needs,"},{"startTime":3271.334,"endTime":3275.084,"body":"but I will hit it by the deadline."},{"startTime":3275.234,"endTime":3276.864,"body":"That's exactly what PMO's prize."},{"startTime":3277.044,"endTime":3277.234,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":3277.384,"endTime":3277.744,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":3277.804,"endTime":3278.494,"body":"We can do that."},{"startTime":3278.544,"endTime":3279.544,"body":"We can operate like that."},{"startTime":3279.734,"endTime":3280.604,"body":"No one's going to be happy."},{"startTime":3280.874,"endTime":3281.324,"body":"No one."},{"startTime":3281.464,"endTime":3281.984,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3282.134,"endTime":3284.654,"body":"If we're wrapping up, I do"},{"startTime":3282.134,"endTime":3284.654,"body":"want to just close with I do"},{"startTime":3284.684,"endTime":3285.704,"body":"think it's a valuable book."},{"startTime":3285.854,"endTime":3287.754,"body":"I do think it's a worthy read."},{"startTime":3288.074,"endTime":3290.164,"body":"I think it has some amazing content."},{"startTime":3290.314,"endTime":3295.234,"body":"It's a good collection of summary put"},{"startTime":3290.314,"endTime":3295.234,"body":"together, sanitized in one language"},{"startTime":3295.504,"endTime":3299.144,"body":"I mean devoid of anyone's particular"},{"startTime":3295.504,"endTime":3299.144,"body":"scaling method or, or, or thing that"},{"startTime":3299.144,"endTime":3300.494,"body":"they're trying to sell or whatever."},{"startTime":3300.844,"endTime":3301.654,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":3301.874,"endTime":3306.094,"body":"And I, in, in all of his books I"},{"startTime":3301.874,"endTime":3306.094,"body":"think there's like 1400 pages related"},{"startTime":3306.094,"endTime":3307.484,"body":"to product and product delivery."},{"startTime":3307.484,"endTime":3311.134,"body":"And, and I think that they're all"},{"startTime":3307.484,"endTime":3311.134,"body":"great in their own, in their own right."},{"startTime":3311.144,"endTime":3314.814,"body":"But there's definitely some"},{"startTime":3311.144,"endTime":3314.814,"body":"fundamental in the book."},{"startTime":3314.814,"endTime":3316.744,"body":"We didn't get into where"},{"startTime":3314.814,"endTime":3316.744,"body":"he talks about the reality."},{"startTime":3316.754,"endTime":3318.564,"body":"you have to address your current reality."},{"startTime":3318.564,"endTime":3322.164,"body":"You have to understand what your"},{"startTime":3318.564,"endTime":3322.164,"body":"reality is as you're trying to move."},{"startTime":3322.464,"endTime":3327.704,"body":"And I think there's certain areas in"},{"startTime":3322.464,"endTime":3327.704,"body":"organizations that the reality is, They"},{"startTime":3327.734,"endTime":3333.184,"body":"can't move and a book isn't enough and"},{"startTime":3327.734,"endTime":3333.184,"body":"mindset is everything and we have to"},{"startTime":3333.184,"endTime":3337.454,"body":"figure out how to help that and if there"},{"startTime":3333.184,"endTime":3337.454,"body":"is a next book, maybe not hypnotized,"},{"startTime":3337.624,"endTime":3342.944,"body":"but definitely some way of taking Carol"},{"startTime":3337.624,"endTime":3342.944,"body":"Dweck's book on mindset and adding to"},{"startTime":3342.944,"endTime":3348.474,"body":"it on how we can fix the mindset because"},{"startTime":3342.944,"endTime":3348.474,"body":"the objections are one thing, but there's"},{"startTime":3348.474,"endTime":3352.464,"body":"still a whole shift that has to happen"},{"startTime":3348.474,"endTime":3352.464,"body":"within the technology organizations."},{"startTime":3352.614,"endTime":3353.074,"body":"No doubt."},{"startTime":3353.074,"endTime":3354.324,"body":"Yeah, absolutely correct."},{"startTime":3354.334,"endTime":3356.114,"body":"So, no panacea in there, right?"},{"startTime":3356.404,"endTime":3359.864,"body":"There's no actual follow this and"},{"startTime":3356.404,"endTime":3359.864,"body":"thou shall have it kind of thing."},{"startTime":3359.874,"endTime":3362.304,"body":"Oh, I don't think, I didn't see a flow."},{"startTime":3362.624,"endTime":3364.914,"body":"Definitely thought provoking ideas."},{"startTime":3365.074,"endTime":3369.204,"body":"There's frameworks that you can"},{"startTime":3365.074,"endTime":3369.204,"body":"go to but, no, it's not the scrum"},{"startTime":3369.204,"endTime":3371.754,"body":"guide that says do these four events"},{"startTime":3369.204,"endTime":3371.754,"body":"and everything will be perfect."},{"startTime":3371.904,"endTime":3372.674,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3372.774,"endTime":3373.974,"body":"Ohm, take us away."},{"startTime":3374.044,"endTime":3374.534,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":3374.534,"endTime":3377.264,"body":"Well, thank you for the six"},{"startTime":3374.534,"endTime":3377.264,"body":"of you that stayed with us."},{"startTime":3377.294,"endTime":3379.544,"body":"We're increasing our population size now."},{"startTime":3379.864,"endTime":3381.224,"body":"It's gone up from two to six."},{"startTime":3381.374,"endTime":3384.284,"body":"Let us know what you think about this"},{"startTime":3381.374,"endTime":3384.284,"body":"podcast and let us know what other"},{"startTime":3384.284,"endTime":3387.484,"body":"topics you want us to delve into,"},{"startTime":3384.284,"endTime":3387.484,"body":"but don't forget  and subscribe."},{"startTime":3387.644,"endTime":3388.084,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3388.254,"endTime":3388.724,"body":"Down below."},{"startTime":3388.764,"endTime":3389.464,"body":"If you're Gary."},{"startTime":3389.514,"endTime":3390.404,"body":"And that's not a thumbs down."},{"startTime":3390.464,"endTime":3393.724,"body":"Oh, that's, I was gonna say  all"},{"startTime":3390.464,"endTime":3393.724,"body":"thumbs down have been edited out of"},{"startTime":3393.774,"endTime":3396.234,"body":"Twitter, YouTube, and this podcast."},{"startTime":3396.234,"endTime":3396.684,"body":"Thumbs up."}]}