{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":17.197,"body":"I was on LinkedIn and I was noticing there"},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":17.197,"body":"were quite a lot of product management."},{"startTime":17.198,"endTime":22.768,"body":"Gurus, self professed, of"},{"startTime":17.198,"endTime":22.768,"body":"course who, were espousing."},{"startTime":22.768,"endTime":24.278,"body":"I don't use the word espouse very much."},{"startTime":24.428,"endTime":29.348,"body":"They were espousing the need for"},{"startTime":24.428,"endTime":29.348,"body":"product management specialization."},{"startTime":29.498,"endTime":35.078,"body":"So, we need a very specific skill set not"},{"startTime":29.498,"endTime":35.078,"body":"Liam Neeson's very specific skill set."},{"startTime":35.228,"endTime":37.438,"body":"But we need a very specific"},{"startTime":35.228,"endTime":37.438,"body":"type of product manager."},{"startTime":37.728,"endTime":41.298,"body":"And I look at posts like that and"},{"startTime":37.728,"endTime":41.298,"body":"I have to ask Do you really need a"},{"startTime":41.448,"endTime":46.398,"body":"product manager who's done eight years"},{"startTime":41.448,"endTime":46.398,"body":"of like this specific widget product"},{"startTime":46.398,"endTime":50.638,"body":"management, especially if you say eight"},{"startTime":46.398,"endTime":50.638,"body":"years of that and not really much else."},{"startTime":50.788,"endTime":60.038,"body":"So I started reading around and in our"},{"startTime":50.788,"endTime":60.038,"body":"messages back and forth and the prep"},{"startTime":60.048,"endTime":64.238,"body":"for this podcast, I sort of started"},{"startTime":60.048,"endTime":64.238,"body":"coming to the realization that this"},{"startTime":64.348,"endTime":68.928,"body":"might be in effect of overload on"},{"startTime":64.348,"endTime":68.928,"body":"the position of product management."},{"startTime":69.078,"endTime":73.018,"body":"So we decided that we want product"},{"startTime":69.078,"endTime":73.018,"body":"managers to be the CEO of the product."},{"startTime":73.018,"endTime":77.298,"body":"we want them to be responsible for"},{"startTime":73.018,"endTime":77.298,"body":"the, the P\u0026 L and and we want them to"},{"startTime":77.298,"endTime":81.178,"body":"be responsible for the strategy the"},{"startTime":77.298,"endTime":81.178,"body":"future and the day to day working with"},{"startTime":81.178,"endTime":82.628,"body":"the development team, the tactical."},{"startTime":82.778,"endTime":84.668,"body":"So we want them in the strategic world."},{"startTime":84.788,"endTime":85.938,"body":"We want them in the tactical world."},{"startTime":85.948,"endTime":87.638,"body":"We want them doing demos."},{"startTime":87.638,"endTime":88.838,"body":"We want them marketing."},{"startTime":88.838,"endTime":91.508,"body":"We want them doing you know,"},{"startTime":88.838,"endTime":91.508,"body":"product marketing activities."},{"startTime":91.508,"endTime":93.138,"body":"We want them in UI UX design."},{"startTime":93.138,"endTime":94.328,"body":"We want them doing discovery."},{"startTime":94.578,"endTime":96.098,"body":"We want them to wash our car."},{"startTime":96.108,"endTime":98.278,"body":"We want them  to rotate"},{"startTime":96.108,"endTime":98.278,"body":"our tires and Right."},{"startTime":98.278,"endTime":101.218,"body":"You know, to to, to wrap all"},{"startTime":98.278,"endTime":101.218,"body":"of our Christmas gifts does"},{"startTime":101.218,"endTime":102.208,"body":"seem like a lot, doesn't it?"},{"startTime":102.358,"endTime":104.278,"body":"It's it does seem to be getting excessive."},{"startTime":104.308,"endTime":104.788,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":104.888,"endTime":109.803,"body":"so this is where a lot of the discussions"},{"startTime":104.888,"endTime":109.803,"body":"around, you know is the role of"},{"startTime":109.803,"endTime":112.083,"body":"product manager becoming overloaded?"},{"startTime":112.138,"endTime":112.468,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":112.558,"endTime":113.548,"body":"Comes into the picture."},{"startTime":113.548,"endTime":113.848,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":113.998,"endTime":117.798,"body":"I think the answer to that is yes,"},{"startTime":113.998,"endTime":117.798,"body":"because I will give you a list"},{"startTime":118.018,"endTime":121.468,"body":"of some of the product management"},{"startTime":118.018,"endTime":121.468,"body":"specializations that I have either"},{"startTime":121.498,"endTime":123.248,"body":"seen people label themselves as."},{"startTime":123.398,"endTime":127.368,"body":"Or I've seen active job posts"},{"startTime":123.398,"endTime":127.368,"body":"recently looking for these"},{"startTime":127.418,"endTime":128.688,"body":"types of product manager."},{"startTime":128.898,"endTime":132.808,"body":"And for the purpose of this, we're going"},{"startTime":128.898,"endTime":132.808,"body":"to exclude the type of product manager"},{"startTime":132.818,"endTime":136.838,"body":"that is like the original product manager,"},{"startTime":132.818,"endTime":136.838,"body":"as I've understood it as Marty Kagan"},{"startTime":136.838,"endTime":140.778,"body":"and people like that tell it is this"},{"startTime":136.838,"endTime":140.778,"body":"person was basically a relabeling of the"},{"startTime":140.928,"endTime":145.438,"body":"general manager for the company when a"},{"startTime":140.928,"endTime":145.438,"body":"company has like a pure software company"},{"startTime":145.438,"endTime":147.128,"body":"where the whole company is one product."},{"startTime":147.278,"endTime":147.538,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":147.588,"endTime":149.538,"body":"That kind of company, only"},{"startTime":147.588,"endTime":149.538,"body":"when they introduce another"},{"startTime":149.538,"endTime":150.758,"body":"product or whatever, you know?"},{"startTime":151.108,"endTime":151.388,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":151.538,"endTime":156.028,"body":"So ignoring that type of PM, like a"},{"startTime":151.538,"endTime":156.028,"body":"general man PM as a general manager, you"},{"startTime":156.028,"endTime":160.538,"body":"have obviously growth PMs and technical"},{"startTime":156.028,"endTime":160.538,"body":"PMs are the first ones that you'll see"},{"startTime":160.538,"endTime":163.438,"body":"all over the place, because the growth"},{"startTime":160.538,"endTime":163.438,"body":"people especially are trying to make a"},{"startTime":163.438,"endTime":166.858,"body":"name for themselves It's the marketing"},{"startTime":163.438,"endTime":166.858,"body":"activity of re segmenting the market."},{"startTime":167.008,"endTime":170.738,"body":"You know oh, oh, it's like, oh, all of"},{"startTime":167.008,"endTime":170.738,"body":"the razor blades that have two blades."},{"startTime":170.748,"endTime":172.628,"body":"Those are all old and"},{"startTime":170.748,"endTime":172.628,"body":"those are all over there."},{"startTime":172.778,"endTime":174.828,"body":"Everyone's got to have three blades now."},{"startTime":174.828,"endTime":175.928,"body":"It's a new market."},{"startTime":175.978,"endTime":177.788,"body":"Six now, but yeah, I"},{"startTime":175.978,"endTime":177.788,"body":"see what you're saying."},{"startTime":177.858,"endTime":178.438,"body":"Definitely."},{"startTime":178.447,"endTime":179.247,"body":"The more the merrier."},{"startTime":179.337,"endTime":180.307,"body":"Eighteen blades."},{"startTime":180.457,"endTime":182.847,"body":"there's a certain time when"},{"startTime":180.457,"endTime":182.847,"body":"resegmenting just doesn't work anymore."},{"startTime":183.007,"endTime":183.467,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":183.637,"endTime":184.947,"body":"You know, that's absolutely right."},{"startTime":185.047,"endTime":189.487,"body":"So I think some of this is as a result of"},{"startTime":185.047,"endTime":189.487,"body":"the role of the product manager becoming"},{"startTime":189.637,"endTime":191.427,"body":"overloaded, overburdened, whatever."},{"startTime":191.457,"endTime":193.637,"body":"And a certain portion of this is just."},{"startTime":193.787,"endTime":199.217,"body":"Trying to find more niche, more nuance"},{"startTime":193.787,"endTime":199.217,"body":"in the product space on the part"},{"startTime":199.257,"endTime":202.837,"body":"of the recruiters, or the companies"},{"startTime":199.257,"endTime":202.837,"body":"that are hiring and we need this."},{"startTime":202.987,"endTime":208.067,"body":"But at the end of the day you don't really"},{"startTime":202.987,"endTime":208.067,"body":"have that kind of availability of product"},{"startTime":208.067,"endTime":213.137,"body":"specialists in the market with the depth"},{"startTime":208.067,"endTime":213.137,"body":"that's being asked for today, right?"},{"startTime":213.227,"endTime":216.387,"body":"Which we know has been increasing in"},{"startTime":213.227,"endTime":216.387,"body":"terms of years of experience needed."},{"startTime":216.437,"endTime":216.627,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":216.817,"endTime":220.017,"body":"So how many times can you go out"},{"startTime":216.817,"endTime":220.017,"body":"there and find somebody who has."},{"startTime":220.167,"endTime":224.177,"body":"a specific niche in product for"},{"startTime":220.167,"endTime":224.177,"body":"example FinTech, we talked about this"},{"startTime":224.177,"endTime":229.477,"body":"earlier, FinTech product manager with"},{"startTime":224.177,"endTime":229.477,"body":"eight years of experience, pretty"},{"startTime":229.477,"endTime":231.227,"body":"rare, not impossible, pretty rare."},{"startTime":231.527,"endTime":234.827,"body":"And then you're asking them to"},{"startTime":231.527,"endTime":234.827,"body":"come and work in manufacturing."},{"startTime":234.877,"endTime":237.128,"body":"And, and on top of that, you're"},{"startTime":234.877,"endTime":237.128,"body":"saying, well, we don't really"},{"startTime":237.128,"endTime":241.108,"body":"have funds for another specialist"},{"startTime":237.128,"endTime":241.108,"body":"product manager who perhaps"},{"startTime":241.108,"endTime":243.368,"body":"specializes in internationalization."},{"startTime":243.628,"endTime":247.848,"body":"So we want a FinTech product manager"},{"startTime":243.628,"endTime":247.848,"body":"with a specialty in internationalization."},{"startTime":247.858,"endTime":252.388,"body":"Now you're getting even more, you know"},{"startTime":247.858,"endTime":252.388,"body":"specific to the point where it becomes"},{"startTime":252.388,"endTime":254.278,"body":"hard to find these unicorns, right?"},{"startTime":254.558,"endTime":257.588,"body":"You know, the funny thing is you"},{"startTime":254.558,"endTime":257.588,"body":"might not even be asking for a"},{"startTime":257.768,"endTime":259.588,"body":"specialization, but you might."},{"startTime":259.663,"endTime":263.503,"body":"Be interviewing people and saying, oh,"},{"startTime":259.663,"endTime":263.503,"body":"this person's only ever been a data pm"},{"startTime":263.503,"endTime":266.673,"body":"or this person is coming from a company"},{"startTime":263.503,"endTime":266.673,"body":"where they were a mobile PM mainly,"},{"startTime":266.823,"endTime":270.563,"body":"but we are more B2B, or whatever."},{"startTime":270.803,"endTime":272.273,"body":"Like internationalization is a good one."},{"startTime":272.273,"endTime":273.293,"body":"Globalization iss a good one."},{"startTime":273.393,"endTime":275.973,"body":"Really, like if they don't,"},{"startTime":273.393,"endTime":275.973,"body":"specifically what I'm saying,"},{"startTime":275.973,"endTime":277.768,"body":"if they don't specifically"},{"startTime":275.973,"endTime":277.768,"body":"put it in the job description."},{"startTime":277.918,"endTime":280.248,"body":"They probably are"},{"startTime":277.918,"endTime":280.248,"body":"thinking it in their head."},{"startTime":280.298,"endTime":283.528,"body":"That's what I meant by the recruiters"},{"startTime":280.298,"endTime":283.528,"body":"looking for it from that angle."},{"startTime":283.528,"endTime":287.268,"body":"This is that whole conversation"},{"startTime":283.528,"endTime":287.268,"body":"about you can come from the"},{"startTime":287.268,"endTime":290.598,"body":"business domain, you have the domain"},{"startTime":287.268,"endTime":290.598,"body":"Domain knowledge and experience."},{"startTime":290.658,"endTime":291.728,"body":"Yeah, domain knowledge and experience."},{"startTime":292.023,"endTime":293.473,"body":"Or you can have product"},{"startTime":292.023,"endTime":293.473,"body":"knowledge experience."},{"startTime":293.473,"endTime":294.573,"body":"This is exactly what I mean."},{"startTime":294.573,"endTime":297.343,"body":"when I say that to people,"},{"startTime":294.573,"endTime":297.343,"body":"yeah, that's perfectly valid."},{"startTime":297.343,"endTime":298.073,"body":"I think so."},{"startTime":298.073,"endTime":300.153,"body":"There are a lot more right"},{"startTime":298.073,"endTime":300.153,"body":"where that came from."},{"startTime":300.163,"endTime":304.023,"body":"We talked about a couple isn't this a"},{"startTime":300.163,"endTime":304.023,"body":"yellow data PM is it would be, it would"},{"startTime":304.023,"endTime":305.163,"body":"have been the next one on my list."},{"startTime":305.163,"endTime":308.732,"body":"I think we pretty much talked about most"},{"startTime":305.163,"endTime":308.732,"body":"everything else in here except for, Okay."},{"startTime":308.882,"endTime":314.992,"body":"Data PM and an AI ML PM or a data science"},{"startTime":308.882,"endTime":314.992,"body":"PM or whatever you want to call it."},{"startTime":315.322,"endTime":317.902,"body":"Those are the only two other"},{"startTime":315.322,"endTime":317.902,"body":"specializations that people would"},{"startTime":317.902,"endTime":318.962,"body":"say, No, Brian, you're wrong."},{"startTime":318.962,"endTime":322.412,"body":"Those are very specific and"},{"startTime":318.962,"endTime":322.412,"body":"they have their own needs."},{"startTime":322.562,"endTime":324.072,"body":"are they really that specific?"},{"startTime":324.382,"endTime":327.012,"body":"To the point where, at the"},{"startTime":324.382,"endTime":327.012,"body":"exclusion of the others, that's"},{"startTime":327.012,"endTime":328.102,"body":"really what I'm asking, right?"},{"startTime":328.252,"endTime":331.182,"body":"So maybe you need certain knowledge."},{"startTime":331.297,"endTime":331.567,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":331.567,"endTime":334.537,"body":"But that knowledge perhaps could be"},{"startTime":331.567,"endTime":334.537,"body":"gained by somebody who doesn't have"},{"startTime":334.537,"endTime":337.337,"body":"it, but has core product skills, right?"},{"startTime":337.607,"endTime":340.417,"body":"So as long as you have core product"},{"startTime":337.607,"endTime":340.417,"body":"skills, I think some of these,"},{"startTime":340.567,"endTime":343.217,"body":"I'm thinking through this now,"},{"startTime":340.567,"endTime":343.217,"body":"I think some, maybe most, maybe"},{"startTime":343.227,"endTime":346.027,"body":"all of these could be learned if"},{"startTime":343.227,"endTime":346.027,"body":"you really wanted to learn them."},{"startTime":346.347,"endTime":347.717,"body":"Somebody learned them for the first time."},{"startTime":347.727,"endTime":349.357,"body":"So, I mean, it's possible."},{"startTime":349.377,"endTime":350.837,"body":"We know that it's gotta be possible."},{"startTime":350.838,"endTime":351.122,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":351.122,"endTime":352.546,"body":"How did we get here?"},{"startTime":352.546,"endTime":356.248,"body":"That's, that's where I want to launch"},{"startTime":352.546,"endTime":356.248,"body":"into, because like this, subdivision of"},{"startTime":356.248,"endTime":358.978,"body":"sub sub species of, product managers."},{"startTime":359.188,"endTime":363.508,"body":"I kind of think specializations are"},{"startTime":359.188,"endTime":363.508,"body":"kind of silly in and of itself, from"},{"startTime":363.508,"endTime":368.008,"body":"the perspective of I don't want to hire"},{"startTime":363.508,"endTime":368.008,"body":"somebody with 8 years of PME experience"},{"startTime":368.008,"endTime":370.968,"body":"that basically could do any of these jobs"},{"startTime":368.008,"endTime":370.968,"body":"because I don't want to pay that much."},{"startTime":371.098,"endTime":375.348,"body":"But, if I can find a person that has"},{"startTime":371.098,"endTime":375.348,"body":"only one of these categories but has"},{"startTime":375.348,"endTime":378.468,"body":"a deep understanding of it, maybe"},{"startTime":375.348,"endTime":378.468,"body":"I can just lift that and they'll"},{"startTime":378.468,"endTime":380.038,"body":"be good enough for what I need."},{"startTime":380.038,"endTime":382.647,"body":"You know I'm looking for a GM, basically."},{"startTime":382.707,"endTime":384.337,"body":"I need a GM to run my whole business."},{"startTime":384.597,"endTime":387.607,"body":"Maybe I can hire someone with two years"},{"startTime":384.597,"endTime":387.607,"body":"experience and I know they're not GM"},{"startTime":387.607,"endTime":390.457,"body":"material, but I can grow them over"},{"startTime":387.607,"endTime":390.457,"body":"two, three years with my business."},{"startTime":390.457,"endTime":393.727,"body":"And then by the time they have five,"},{"startTime":390.457,"endTime":393.727,"body":"six, eight years experience, they'll be,"},{"startTime":393.737,"endTime":395.287,"body":"ready to run my segment of the business."},{"startTime":395.387,"endTime":397.517,"body":"You bring somebody up from"},{"startTime":395.387,"endTime":397.517,"body":"within the business that way."},{"startTime":397.517,"endTime":400.517,"body":"I have to think that they would be"},{"startTime":397.517,"endTime":400.517,"body":"a pretty good candidate because they"},{"startTime":400.537,"endTime":402.137,"body":"stayed with you this long, right?"},{"startTime":402.287,"endTime":406.777,"body":"They must've learned a lot of stuff if you"},{"startTime":402.287,"endTime":406.777,"body":"gave them the latitude to learn at least."},{"startTime":406.927,"endTime":410.077,"body":"So yeah, while there's these"},{"startTime":406.927,"endTime":410.077,"body":"specializations, It's really the same"},{"startTime":410.087,"endTime":413.907,"body":"genus you're still a core product"},{"startTime":410.087,"endTime":413.907,"body":"person at the center of it all, right?"},{"startTime":414.057,"endTime":417.267,"body":"And as long as you have that"},{"startTime":414.057,"endTime":417.267,"body":"hunger to learn about these other"},{"startTime":417.267,"endTime":418.917,"body":"things, It's definitely doable."},{"startTime":419.147,"endTime":423.937,"body":"I think the industry as a whole perhaps"},{"startTime":419.147,"endTime":423.937,"body":"is going down the wrong path by carving"},{"startTime":423.957,"endTime":428.187,"body":"out these specializations We've got"},{"startTime":423.957,"endTime":428.187,"body":"probably about a dozen of these that we"},{"startTime":428.187,"endTime":432.327,"body":"talked about earlier but in in two three"},{"startTime":428.187,"endTime":432.327,"body":"years time I can imagine there being more"},{"startTime":432.712,"endTime":436.782,"body":"Especially with the new markets you know,"},{"startTime":432.712,"endTime":436.782,"body":"that are fueled by AI, ML, et cetera."},{"startTime":437.042,"endTime":437.242,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":437.282,"endTime":439.972,"body":"You're going to have more nuanced"},{"startTime":437.282,"endTime":439.972,"body":"positions being advertised."},{"startTime":440.012,"endTime":441.802,"body":"People saying, Hey, I wear this cap now."},{"startTime":441.952,"endTime":443.542,"body":"You know, so I'm a specialist, right?"},{"startTime":443.672,"endTime":447.072,"body":"Well, you can, you could bolt on"},{"startTime":443.672,"endTime":447.072,"body":"AI to any of these like, Oh, I need"},{"startTime":447.072,"endTime":449.932,"body":"AI fintech, AI B2B, AI, whatever."},{"startTime":449.932,"endTime":453.122,"body":"Now you're hyper specific"},{"startTime":449.932,"endTime":453.122,"body":"on paper, but yeah."},{"startTime":453.152,"endTime":455.592,"body":"And actually, is it really, I mean,"},{"startTime":453.152,"endTime":455.592,"body":"what are you really getting for that?"},{"startTime":455.612,"endTime":460.592,"body":"I have to wonder if this is not"},{"startTime":455.612,"endTime":460.592,"body":"disguising a larger problem of why"},{"startTime":460.592,"endTime":465.542,"body":"are companies seeking these ultra"},{"startTime":460.592,"endTime":465.542,"body":"specialists and not just growing"},{"startTime":465.782,"endTime":469.281,"body":"leadership in house themselves that can"},{"startTime":465.782,"endTime":469.281,"body":"take over this side of the business?"},{"startTime":469.281,"endTime":473.092,"body":"Well, I can tell you, for starters,"},{"startTime":469.281,"endTime":473.092,"body":"growing somebody in house takes time."},{"startTime":473.242,"endTime":473.602,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":473.642,"endTime":473.842,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":473.872,"endTime":475.752,"body":"And people don't want to spend the time."},{"startTime":475.752,"endTime":478.942,"body":"They just want immediate"},{"startTime":475.752,"endTime":478.942,"body":"results, immediate gratification."},{"startTime":479.092,"endTime":481.222,"body":"so welcome to the, how"},{"startTime":479.092,"endTime":481.222,"body":"do we get here category?"},{"startTime":481.222,"endTime":483.682,"body":"the number one thing that I want"},{"startTime":481.222,"endTime":483.682,"body":"to talk about in the how do we get"},{"startTime":483.682,"endTime":486.462,"body":"here category is why are people"},{"startTime":483.682,"endTime":486.462,"body":"not just growing their own leaders?"},{"startTime":486.462,"endTime":488.782,"body":"I mean, they're looking to"},{"startTime":486.462,"endTime":488.782,"body":"hire the current market."},{"startTime":488.782,"endTime":491.302,"body":"what companies are looking for in"},{"startTime":488.782,"endTime":491.302,"body":"the current market is they've stopped"},{"startTime":491.302,"endTime":496.142,"body":"looking for these one year entry"},{"startTime":491.302,"endTime":496.142,"body":"level, one, two year experience PMs."},{"startTime":496.292,"endTime":499.312,"body":"And they started looking for"},{"startTime":496.292,"endTime":499.312,"body":"these eight year, more senior PMs."},{"startTime":499.412,"endTime":502.392,"body":"That's the whole market kind of shifted"},{"startTime":499.412,"endTime":502.392,"body":"that way from what I'm seeing anyway."},{"startTime":502.542,"endTime":507.732,"body":"And I think that's because The companies"},{"startTime":502.542,"endTime":507.732,"body":"don't want to take time to grow these"},{"startTime":507.732,"endTime":511.232,"body":"people or they don't want to play the"},{"startTime":507.732,"endTime":511.232,"body":"roulette game of will these people"},{"startTime":511.242,"endTime":513.782,"body":"eventually turn into what I need them to"},{"startTime":511.242,"endTime":513.782,"body":"turn into and they don't want to wait."},{"startTime":513.822,"endTime":517.712,"body":"It's an unknown While the experience"},{"startTime":513.822,"endTime":517.712,"body":"level demanded has gone up, What I"},{"startTime":517.712,"endTime":521.142,"body":"haven't seen is salary levels aren't"},{"startTime":517.712,"endTime":521.142,"body":"really commensurate with that."},{"startTime":521.142,"endTime":524.082,"body":"They're still looking to pay"},{"startTime":521.142,"endTime":524.082,"body":"to your experience, And still"},{"startTime":524.082,"endTime":527.052,"body":"demanding, maybe because it's the"},{"startTime":524.082,"endTime":527.052,"body":"nature of the job market right now."},{"startTime":527.202,"endTime":530.302,"body":"Definitely an employer's market and maybe"},{"startTime":527.202,"endTime":530.302,"body":"that's why they're doing that, right?"},{"startTime":530.302,"endTime":531.252,"body":"We've seen that before."},{"startTime":531.402,"endTime":534.202,"body":"the companies right now are using"},{"startTime":531.402,"endTime":534.202,"body":"market pressure to their benefit."},{"startTime":534.382,"endTime":534.652,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":534.652,"endTime":537.832,"body":"But the market pressure is"},{"startTime":534.652,"endTime":537.832,"body":"everything's gotta be faster"},{"startTime":537.982,"endTime":539.162,"body":"the delivery's gotta be faster."},{"startTime":539.192,"endTime":540.282,"body":"Discovery's gotta be faster."},{"startTime":540.292,"endTime":541.852,"body":"Servicing your clients gotta be faster."},{"startTime":541.902,"endTime":543.582,"body":"how fast is the appropriate turnaround?"},{"startTime":543.892,"endTime":546.042,"body":"Once you've discovered an idea,"},{"startTime":543.892,"endTime":546.042,"body":"like I don't know, but I would"},{"startTime":546.042,"endTime":550.292,"body":"assume it's much faster than it was"},{"startTime":546.042,"endTime":550.292,"body":"20 years ago or even 10 years ago."},{"startTime":550.292,"endTime":551.112,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":551.132,"endTime":551.772,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":551.982,"endTime":556.132,"body":"And the other thing is because"},{"startTime":551.982,"endTime":556.132,"body":"they're not investing, like having"},{"startTime":556.182,"endTime":559.402,"body":"funding more positions like this,"},{"startTime":556.182,"endTime":559.402,"body":"they're just layering on top of the"},{"startTime":559.432,"endTime":562.302,"body":"existing product people where you've"},{"startTime":559.432,"endTime":562.302,"body":"got to do all of these things, right."},{"startTime":562.302,"endTime":565.552,"body":"Which brings us back full circle to"},{"startTime":562.302,"endTime":565.552,"body":"how we introduced this topic today."},{"startTime":565.792,"endTime":566.072,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":566.142,"endTime":568.752,"body":"You've got to do X, Y,"},{"startTime":566.142,"endTime":568.752,"body":"Z, and then some, right."},{"startTime":568.792,"endTime":570.802,"body":"And so now of course that"},{"startTime":568.792,"endTime":570.802,"body":"person's overburdened."},{"startTime":570.952,"endTime":574.422,"body":"You can't do everything as well if"},{"startTime":570.952,"endTime":574.422,"body":"you have to keep doing all of that."},{"startTime":574.572,"endTime":577.892,"body":"And the other side of it is the"},{"startTime":574.572,"endTime":577.892,"body":"organization really supporting you."},{"startTime":578.042,"endTime":580.432,"body":"Well, that's, I mean, let's"},{"startTime":578.042,"endTime":580.432,"body":"put that one on the parking lot"},{"startTime":580.442,"endTime":581.832,"body":"for when we talk about cons."},{"startTime":581.832,"endTime":587.222,"body":"The pros and cons sections of this,"},{"startTime":581.832,"endTime":587.222,"body":"this specialization happening."},{"startTime":587.232,"endTime":588.742,"body":"I mean, a con, definitely."},{"startTime":588.892,"endTime":594.892,"body":"Is corporate America's dual, I was"},{"startTime":588.892,"endTime":594.892,"body":"going to say their bipolar disorder"},{"startTime":594.892,"endTime":599.002,"body":"of being both, they're shifting from"},{"startTime":594.892,"endTime":599.002,"body":"scope creep to the things that they want"},{"startTime":599.002,"endTime":601.712,"body":"from the position and they don't do,"},{"startTime":599.002,"endTime":601.712,"body":"this is not just product management,"},{"startTime":601.732,"endTime":603.212,"body":"this is every position that I've seen."},{"startTime":603.412,"endTime":608.252,"body":"they use scope creep and lack of support"},{"startTime":603.412,"endTime":608.252,"body":"together to try to get you to do more work"},{"startTime":608.422,"endTime":613.902,"body":"for less money or to try to get the team"},{"startTime":608.422,"endTime":613.902,"body":"to do more collectively with less people"},{"startTime":614.052,"endTime":615.562,"body":"which basically ends up being less money."},{"startTime":615.562,"endTime":615.822,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":615.932,"endTime":616.242,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":616.292,"endTime":619.532,"body":"So this scope creep and lack of support,"},{"startTime":616.292,"endTime":619.532,"body":"it's like, it's like the, the, also"},{"startTime":619.532,"endTime":621.272,"body":"it's like the if you ever work for a."},{"startTime":621.422,"endTime":625.202,"body":"Narcissist or  if you're work for someone"},{"startTime":621.422,"endTime":625.202,"body":"who is a I don't know full of hot air"},{"startTime":625.202,"endTime":628.762,"body":"Let's say that someone who is a not,"},{"startTime":625.202,"endTime":628.762,"body":"not a particularly competent leader."},{"startTime":628.862,"endTime":630.212,"body":"They will use a fear and doubt."},{"startTime":630.212,"endTime":633.982,"body":"Fear and doubt is their weapon"},{"startTime":630.212,"endTime":633.982,"body":"on either side to try to keep"},{"startTime":633.982,"endTime":634.852,"body":"you in line, fear and doubt."},{"startTime":634.852,"endTime":637.372,"body":"So it's scope, creep and lack"},{"startTime":634.852,"endTime":637.372,"body":"support work together for this."},{"startTime":637.422,"endTime":638.752,"body":"Definitely the one, two punch."},{"startTime":638.822,"endTime":639.252,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":639.252,"endTime":639.802,"body":"The one, two punch."},{"startTime":639.842,"endTime":643.229,"body":"we'll talk about this more in the con"},{"startTime":639.842,"endTime":643.229,"body":"section, but it's something to be aware"},{"startTime":643.229,"endTime":646.643,"body":"of, of the, Oh, we got all this market"},{"startTime":643.229,"endTime":646.643,"body":"pressure and we got to move faster."},{"startTime":646.643,"endTime":646.857,"body":"And."},{"startTime":646.857,"endTime":650.107,"body":"there's no money for this or another one"},{"startTime":646.857,"endTime":650.107,"body":"that I've heard is you got to justify"},{"startTime":650.257,"endTime":652.477,"body":"why we need more people for this."},{"startTime":652.557,"endTime":654.227,"body":"You got to justify why"},{"startTime":652.557,"endTime":654.227,"body":"we need more people."},{"startTime":654.497,"endTime":655.777,"body":"It's so ironic, isn't it?"},{"startTime":655.807,"endTime":658.347,"body":"I mean, the justification is"},{"startTime":655.807,"endTime":658.347,"body":"you're asking me to run faster."},{"startTime":658.497,"endTime":662.317,"body":"that should be a leadership expectation it"},{"startTime":658.497,"endTime":662.317,"body":"should be a leadership request, but yeah,"},{"startTime":662.317,"endTime":663.647,"body":"it's funny how they turn that around."},{"startTime":663.647,"endTime":664.227,"body":"It certainly is."},{"startTime":664.377,"endTime":667.647,"body":"Although I would say at that level or"},{"startTime":664.377,"endTime":667.647,"body":"even PMO and whatnot, they would say"},{"startTime":667.647,"endTime":669.107,"body":"like, well, these agile ways of working."},{"startTime":669.257,"endTime":672.387,"body":"Are contributing to this type"},{"startTime":669.257,"endTime":672.387,"body":"of need for specialization?"},{"startTime":672.537,"endTime":676.787,"body":"and I think to a certain degree on"},{"startTime":672.537,"endTime":676.787,"body":"the superficial level, maybe they"},{"startTime":676.787,"endTime":677.997,"body":"think they have a point, right?"},{"startTime":677.997,"endTime":680.647,"body":"Because they don't really understand"},{"startTime":677.997,"endTime":680.647,"body":"agile ways of working, right?"},{"startTime":680.647,"endTime":682.947,"body":"So they're gonna say, we need"},{"startTime":680.647,"endTime":682.947,"body":"to do all of these things."},{"startTime":682.947,"endTime":684.537,"body":"And yeah, that's contributing to this."},{"startTime":684.557,"endTime":688.487,"body":"But it's because of their fundamental"},{"startTime":684.557,"endTime":688.487,"body":"lack of understanding of agile"},{"startTime":688.487,"endTime":690.197,"body":"ways of working, I think, right?"},{"startTime":690.217,"endTime":694.467,"body":"If you're doing it right, it's actually"},{"startTime":690.217,"endTime":694.467,"body":"better, To get all of these things done."},{"startTime":694.617,"endTime":697.627,"body":"You don't need to necessarily"},{"startTime":694.617,"endTime":697.627,"body":"add people to a certain degree."},{"startTime":697.777,"endTime":700.717,"body":"So I'll give you an example, If"},{"startTime":697.777,"endTime":700.717,"body":"you're doing things like checking"},{"startTime":700.717,"endTime":704.367,"body":"signals, right out in the market,"},{"startTime":700.717,"endTime":704.367,"body":"do you need to add somebody on your"},{"startTime":704.367,"endTime":708.307,"body":"team to do that full time or can"},{"startTime":704.367,"endTime":708.307,"body":"your existing product people do that?"},{"startTime":708.572,"endTime":709.752,"body":"Person even right?"},{"startTime":709.902,"endTime":710.902,"body":"Should they be doing that?"},{"startTime":711.022,"endTime":713.732,"body":"Like if they're a true product"},{"startTime":711.022,"endTime":713.732,"body":"person, they should be doing that."},{"startTime":713.742,"endTime":716.152,"body":"They shouldn't really just have"},{"startTime":713.742,"endTime":716.152,"body":"their ears to the ground and"},{"startTime":716.152,"endTime":719.222,"body":"just eyes down on the machinery"},{"startTime":716.152,"endTime":719.222,"body":"working and stamping widgets out."},{"startTime":719.372,"endTime":720.542,"body":"I mean, this isn't new."},{"startTime":720.692,"endTime":725.042,"body":"Market pressure, yes, it's always been"},{"startTime":720.692,"endTime":725.042,"body":"on an accelerating scale for, I don't"},{"startTime":725.042,"endTime":726.772,"body":"know, as long as we can remember, right?"},{"startTime":726.922,"endTime":727.832,"body":"Is that going to change?"},{"startTime":727.862,"endTime":728.622,"body":"I don't think so."},{"startTime":728.722,"endTime":730.162,"body":"I think that's going"},{"startTime":728.722,"endTime":730.162,"body":"to get worse and worse."},{"startTime":730.312,"endTime":734.462,"body":"I mean, you also just identified a"},{"startTime":730.312,"endTime":734.462,"body":"topic for a future podcast, which"},{"startTime":734.462,"endTime":736.082,"body":"is when do you need to add people?"},{"startTime":736.232,"endTime":738.972,"body":"Because if you're going through the"},{"startTime":736.232,"endTime":738.972,"body":"interview pipeline right now and"},{"startTime":738.972,"endTime":741.482,"body":"you happen to listen to this podcast"},{"startTime":738.972,"endTime":741.482,"body":"randomly, first of all, thank you."},{"startTime":741.817,"endTime":742.467,"body":"Thanks for coming."},{"startTime":742.467,"endTime":743.127,"body":"Like and subscribe."},{"startTime":743.277,"endTime":746.917,"body":"But second of all ask the question,"},{"startTime":743.277,"endTime":746.917,"body":"how do you know when it's time to add"},{"startTime":746.917,"endTime":750.757,"body":"a new person to the team or to spin"},{"startTime":746.917,"endTime":750.757,"body":"up a new team and watch as they are"},{"startTime":750.757,"endTime":754.857,"body":"flabbergasted and if you want to see"},{"startTime":750.757,"endTime":754.857,"body":"somebody trip over themselves answering"},{"startTime":754.857,"endTime":758.472,"body":"a question, because how do you know"},{"startTime":754.857,"endTime":758.472,"body":"it's time to add Team members or a new"},{"startTime":758.472,"endTime":764.102,"body":"team because the dividing and growing"},{"startTime":758.472,"endTime":764.102,"body":"over an organization, Oh, scaling PM."},{"startTime":764.192,"endTime":765.552,"body":"We didn't talk about that one either."},{"startTime":765.602,"endTime":767.892,"body":"I'm a specialist in"},{"startTime":765.602,"endTime":767.892,"body":"scaling your organization."},{"startTime":768.042,"endTime":770.402,"body":"you're about the only person that"},{"startTime":768.042,"endTime":770.402,"body":"could tell me that, that I wouldn't"},{"startTime":770.432,"endTime":773.962,"body":"dig in and be like, wait a minute,"},{"startTime":770.432,"endTime":773.962,"body":"what are we talking about here?"},{"startTime":774.112,"endTime":778.802,"body":"The other one about specialization is"},{"startTime":774.112,"endTime":778.802,"body":"the what people will say when they say we"},{"startTime":778.802,"endTime":781.712,"body":"need somebody specific because everyone,"},{"startTime":778.802,"endTime":781.712,"body":"every company thinks what they're doing"},{"startTime":781.712,"endTime":783.752,"body":"is like so unique and so specific."},{"startTime":783.972,"endTime":786.262,"body":"They'll say, Oh, the"},{"startTime":783.972,"endTime":786.262,"body":"complexity of the technology."},{"startTime":786.392,"endTime":789.252,"body":"We can't find anyone, anyone"},{"startTime":786.392,"endTime":789.252,"body":"that's worked in our stack."},{"startTime":789.492,"endTime":794.202,"body":"We can't find anyone who's worked at"},{"startTime":789.492,"endTime":794.202,"body":"this specific AI is perfect for this AI."},{"startTime":794.242,"endTime":797.932,"body":"They're perfect for this"},{"startTime":794.242,"endTime":797.932,"body":"biggest culprits of thinking."},{"startTime":798.082,"endTime":801.542,"body":"You know, we're going to grab a"},{"startTime":798.082,"endTime":801.542,"body":"model off the shelf a model that"},{"startTime":801.542,"endTime":806.752,"body":"thousands of people have used like"},{"startTime":801.542,"endTime":806.752,"body":"completely not new tech at all."},{"startTime":806.922,"endTime":807.382,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":807.382,"endTime":809.072,"body":"Cause we've grabbed a"},{"startTime":807.382,"endTime":809.072,"body":"model off the street."},{"startTime":809.222,"endTime":812.592,"body":"And upstreet, is that"},{"startTime":809.222,"endTime":812.592,"body":"where models are now?"},{"startTime":812.822,"endTime":816.732,"body":"and we've slapped in on our product"},{"startTime":812.822,"endTime":816.732,"body":"because our investors told us"},{"startTime":816.792,"endTime":818.822,"body":"we need more AI in our products."},{"startTime":819.012,"endTime":819.612,"body":"So there you go."},{"startTime":819.632,"endTime":822.362,"body":"If that's what they're looking for,"},{"startTime":819.632,"endTime":822.362,"body":"we can satisfy that in that, right."},{"startTime":822.542,"endTime":824.082,"body":"tech complexity drives people."},{"startTime":824.082,"endTime":827.892,"body":"It basically is the, it's the, I've"},{"startTime":824.082,"endTime":827.892,"body":"fallen and I can't get up of the I'm"},{"startTime":827.892,"endTime":831.452,"body":"going to scare you into buying this"},{"startTime":827.892,"endTime":831.452,"body":"product by showing you a commercial"},{"startTime":831.452,"endTime":834.822,"body":"of old people falling down and"},{"startTime":831.452,"endTime":834.822,"body":"saying, look, this could be you."},{"startTime":834.852,"endTime":838.192,"body":"this could be people that you care about"},{"startTime":834.852,"endTime":838.192,"body":"is that you're using tech complexity"},{"startTime":838.192,"endTime":839.802,"body":"to say, no, you need a segment."},{"startTime":839.952,"endTime":843.242,"body":"it's even sketchier if they're asking"},{"startTime":839.952,"endTime":843.242,"body":"for your money at the same time."},{"startTime":843.252,"endTime":844.562,"body":"Well, they typically are."},{"startTime":844.562,"endTime":844.802,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":844.802,"endTime":844.982,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":845.012,"endTime":846.592,"body":"So, yeah, you want to get ahead?"},{"startTime":846.692,"endTime":847.562,"body":"Look at your competition."},{"startTime":847.562,"endTime":848.712,"body":"They're using all these tools."},{"startTime":848.712,"endTime":848.732,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":848.942,"endTime":849.452,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":849.702,"endTime":852.522,"body":"You know, I think there's a lot of"},{"startTime":849.702,"endTime":852.522,"body":"that going on right now, especially"},{"startTime":852.522,"endTime":854.532,"body":"in the AIML data science space."},{"startTime":854.572,"endTime":857.392,"body":"I mean people will listen to this"},{"startTime":854.572,"endTime":857.392,"body":"and might say well, Brian, you're"},{"startTime":857.402,"endTime":860.402,"body":"being disingenuous sometimes"},{"startTime":857.402,"endTime":860.402,"body":"there are really new technologies."},{"startTime":860.402,"endTime":862.232,"body":"There are really new"},{"startTime":860.402,"endTime":862.232,"body":"technologies out there."},{"startTime":862.352,"endTime":864.202,"body":"But we're talking about"},{"startTime":862.352,"endTime":864.202,"body":"product here, right?"},{"startTime":864.242,"endTime":865.482,"body":"Yeah, we're talking about product, though."},{"startTime":865.482,"endTime":868.342,"body":"I mean, if you get one of these eight"},{"startTime":865.482,"endTime":868.342,"body":"year product managers that we're"},{"startTime":868.342,"endTime":871.287,"body":"talking about, one of these senior"},{"startTime":868.342,"endTime":871.287,"body":"PMs, out of one of these other , not"},{"startTime":871.287,"endTime":872.897,"body":"even specializations, just industries."},{"startTime":873.047,"endTime":875.937,"body":"They should be able to adapt"},{"startTime":873.047,"endTime":875.937,"body":"to a different tech stack."},{"startTime":875.937,"endTime":880.137,"body":"I mean, a tech stack holding a PM"},{"startTime":875.937,"endTime":880.137,"body":"back, I can't that's difficult for"},{"startTime":880.137,"endTime":883.977,"body":"me to I might be wrong on this, I'm"},{"startTime":880.137,"endTime":883.977,"body":"willing to be challenged on this in"},{"startTime":883.977,"endTime":885.787,"body":"the comments, throw a comment at me."},{"startTime":886.117,"endTime":888.737,"body":"But that's a tough one for me,"},{"startTime":886.117,"endTime":888.737,"body":"again, cause I've, in my career,"},{"startTime":888.737,"endTime":894.997,"body":"I mean, I remember working on"},{"startTime":888.737,"endTime":894.997,"body":"AS400 IBM Series I mainframe."},{"startTime":894.997,"endTime":895.377,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":895.527,"endTime":896.877,"body":"Working on green screens."},{"startTime":896.877,"endTime":900.362,"body":"I worked on those when I started my"},{"startTime":896.877,"endTime":900.362,"body":"career, we were in Windows 95 and"},{"startTime":900.362,"endTime":903.132,"body":"Windows nt and I worked on Linux Systems."},{"startTime":903.137,"endTime":903.377,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":903.557,"endTime":905.382,"body":"You know, networks, you name it."},{"startTime":905.437,"endTime":905.887,"body":"Like tech stacks."},{"startTime":905.887,"endTime":909.937,"body":"I remember working in QA at one point"},{"startTime":905.887,"endTime":909.937,"body":"when we would hire people I would want"},{"startTime":909.937,"endTime":913.267,"body":"to vet out their personality because"},{"startTime":909.937,"endTime":913.267,"body":"if they were kind of just chained"},{"startTime":913.267,"endTime":915.762,"body":"to one thing or they didn't want"},{"startTime":913.267,"endTime":915.762,"body":"to be learning on a regular basis."},{"startTime":915.912,"endTime":917.772,"body":"I knew they wouldn't"},{"startTime":915.912,"endTime":917.772,"body":"last in our environment."},{"startTime":917.772,"endTime":920.802,"body":"So I would tell them in the interview,"},{"startTime":917.772,"endTime":920.802,"body":"Hey, like the typical QA people, we"},{"startTime":920.802,"endTime":924.382,"body":"place a lot of emphasis on, and a"},{"startTime":920.802,"endTime":924.382,"body":"lot of importance on learning and"},{"startTime":924.382,"endTime":927.582,"body":"skill development, because most of"},{"startTime":924.382,"endTime":927.582,"body":"the QA analysts that you see here,"},{"startTime":927.732,"endTime":929.832,"body":"they're going to turn over their"},{"startTime":927.732,"endTime":929.832,"body":"whole skill set in three years."},{"startTime":929.982,"endTime":931.192,"body":"Look at all the tools they use."},{"startTime":931.342,"endTime":934.662,"body":"Will be completely different in three"},{"startTime":931.342,"endTime":934.662,"body":"years That's a tough thing to say to"},{"startTime":934.662,"endTime":938.112,"body":"somebody All of the tools and technologies"},{"startTime":934.662,"endTime":938.112,"body":"that you use three years from now will"},{"startTime":938.112,"endTime":941.062,"body":"be a hundred percent different And I"},{"startTime":938.112,"endTime":941.062,"body":"can't tell you what they're going to be"},{"startTime":941.062,"endTime":945.062,"body":"because we'll find our way into it, that's"},{"startTime":941.062,"endTime":945.062,"body":"quite a claim, but it's a valid one."},{"startTime":945.282,"endTime":948.987,"body":"I mean that actually did happen faster"},{"startTime":945.282,"endTime":948.987,"body":"than three years, but yeah exactly."},{"startTime":949.137,"endTime":952.537,"body":"So yeah, I think at the core of it if"},{"startTime":949.137,"endTime":952.537,"body":"you're looking for somebody with eight"},{"startTime":952.537,"endTime":954.447,"body":"years of experience in a specific."},{"startTime":954.597,"endTime":956.267,"body":"Niche that we spoke of earlier."},{"startTime":956.417,"endTime":959.867,"body":"Well, they're not gonna have it in"},{"startTime":956.417,"endTime":959.867,"body":"a I M L or data science, possibly"},{"startTime":959.887,"endTime":963.037,"body":"because these aren't eight year"},{"startTime":959.887,"endTime":963.037,"body":"old mature areas to begin with."},{"startTime":963.337,"endTime":967.817,"body":"But if somebody says I'm a product person"},{"startTime":963.337,"endTime":967.817,"body":"and I have the aptitude to learn, I'm"},{"startTime":967.817,"endTime":969.487,"body":"more invested in that person, right?"},{"startTime":969.697,"endTime":973.747,"body":"And just then somebody who says, Well,"},{"startTime":969.697,"endTime":973.747,"body":"I'm a pick one of those nine things"},{"startTime":973.747,"endTime":975.117,"body":"or 10 things that we talked about."},{"startTime":975.267,"endTime":978.977,"body":"I'm a fintech person, and you"},{"startTime":975.267,"endTime":978.977,"body":"know, I can do a I in fintech."},{"startTime":979.257,"endTime":980.107,"body":"It's like, that's great."},{"startTime":980.177,"endTime":982.267,"body":"That's only a small piece of"},{"startTime":980.177,"endTime":982.267,"body":"what I'm looking for today."},{"startTime":982.417,"endTime":983.807,"body":"I don't know what I'm going"},{"startTime":982.417,"endTime":983.807,"body":"to need in the future."},{"startTime":983.827,"endTime":986.477,"body":"I'm going to need a product person"},{"startTime":983.827,"endTime":986.477,"body":"to really take this and run with it."},{"startTime":986.627,"endTime":989.887,"body":"So the other side of that coin is"},{"startTime":986.627,"endTime":989.887,"body":"exactly the, we talked about earlier."},{"startTime":989.887,"endTime":990.667,"body":"healthcare is another one."},{"startTime":990.917,"endTime":995.427,"body":"So the other side of the coin is as an"},{"startTime":990.917,"endTime":995.427,"body":"organization, if you're recruiting for"},{"startTime":995.557,"endTime":1000.387,"body":"these types of product specialist roles,"},{"startTime":995.557,"endTime":1000.387,"body":"you need to make sure that you're doing"},{"startTime":1000.387,"endTime":1004.577,"body":"this with intent and not just because"},{"startTime":1000.387,"endTime":1004.577,"body":"you're jumping on the bandwagon, right?"},{"startTime":1004.857,"endTime":1007.687,"body":"And then the other is, are you going"},{"startTime":1004.857,"endTime":1007.687,"body":"to support this person or are you going"},{"startTime":1007.687,"endTime":1009.327,"body":"to just say, well, since you are this."},{"startTime":1009.477,"endTime":1014.097,"body":"You know this specific insert niche"},{"startTime":1009.477,"endTime":1014.097,"body":"here type of product person the minute"},{"startTime":1014.127,"endTime":1016.407,"body":"you're going to ask them to do something"},{"startTime":1014.127,"endTime":1016.407,"body":"else They're going to keel over"},{"startTime":1016.407,"endTime":1018.347,"body":"because that's not what they do, right?"},{"startTime":1018.347,"endTime":1022.337,"body":"You still have a void and you don't have"},{"startTime":1018.347,"endTime":1022.337,"body":"budget to hire another person well, well"},{"startTime":1022.387,"endTime":1027.307,"body":"the other issue and we'll get to this a"},{"startTime":1022.387,"endTime":1027.307,"body":"little later in the podcast probably one"},{"startTime":1027.307,"endTime":1031.737,"body":"of the what to do if you're caught in"},{"startTime":1027.307,"endTime":1031.737,"body":"this situation where you're the quote ceo"},{"startTime":1031.737,"endTime":1035.967,"body":"of the product but also You got to run"},{"startTime":1031.737,"endTime":1035.967,"body":"to this person for budgeting and run to"},{"startTime":1035.967,"endTime":1039.177,"body":"this manager for hiring and that manager"},{"startTime":1035.967,"endTime":1039.177,"body":"for hiring this other thing, you better"},{"startTime":1039.177,"endTime":1042.037,"body":"inform these stakeholders before you make"},{"startTime":1039.177,"endTime":1042.037,"body":"changes because they have the ability"},{"startTime":1042.037,"endTime":1045.477,"body":"to torpedo your stuff, and you can't"},{"startTime":1042.037,"endTime":1045.477,"body":"hire people and somebody else determines"},{"startTime":1045.477,"endTime":1048.697,"body":"when people leave and join your team"},{"startTime":1045.477,"endTime":1048.697,"body":"and when to take people away from your"},{"startTime":1048.697,"endTime":1050.557,"body":"team yet, CEO of the product anyway."},{"startTime":1050.557,"endTime":1052.337,"body":"I was like, that tangent was way too long."},{"startTime":1052.337,"endTime":1053.217,"body":"I forgot where I was going with it."},{"startTime":1053.547,"endTime":1056.497,"body":"If you're in one of these specialized"},{"startTime":1053.547,"endTime":1056.497,"body":"roles, you probably are there"},{"startTime":1056.497,"endTime":1060.167,"body":"because you've, you've done something"},{"startTime":1056.497,"endTime":1060.167,"body":"about being overburdened and you've"},{"startTime":1060.177,"endTime":1063.467,"body":"gone to a specialized role to"},{"startTime":1060.177,"endTime":1063.467,"body":"get away from being overburdened."},{"startTime":1063.617,"endTime":1067.237,"body":"And now you're finding that you're getting"},{"startTime":1063.617,"endTime":1067.237,"body":"overburdened again in the new role."},{"startTime":1067.387,"endTime":1068.487,"body":"So that's not great."},{"startTime":1068.517,"endTime":1073.007,"body":"I mean, you really need some strategies"},{"startTime":1068.517,"endTime":1073.007,"body":"to basically unburden yourself if possible"},{"startTime":1073.257,"endTime":1075.977,"body":"and to try to evade getting overburdened."},{"startTime":1075.977,"endTime":1078.377,"body":"we'll talk about that when we're in"},{"startTime":1075.977,"endTime":1078.377,"body":"the conclusion sections of the podcast."},{"startTime":1078.377,"endTime":1079.047,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1079.077,"endTime":1083.297,"body":"but I feel there are pros and cons,"},{"startTime":1079.077,"endTime":1083.297,"body":"of being in this product manager role"},{"startTime":1083.447,"endTime":1087.157,"body":"where you're dealing with a lot of"},{"startTime":1083.447,"endTime":1087.157,"body":"different things it seems like you're"},{"startTime":1087.157,"endTime":1090.582,"body":"overburdened, but if it's acceptable"},{"startTime":1087.157,"endTime":1090.582,"body":"for work-life balance for you."},{"startTime":1090.792,"endTime":1093.432,"body":"If it's not burning you out I"},{"startTime":1090.792,"endTime":1093.432,"body":"was gonna say you have some real"},{"startTime":1093.432,"endTime":1095.052,"body":"strong pros that we can talk about."},{"startTime":1095.057,"endTime":1096.342,"body":"I like the cons, obviously."},{"startTime":1096.602,"endTime":1099.922,"body":"We've talked about the scope creep"},{"startTime":1096.602,"endTime":1099.922,"body":"and the lack of support together."},{"startTime":1099.932,"endTime":1100.822,"body":"That's not going to go away."},{"startTime":1101.072,"endTime":1102.022,"body":"It's not going away."},{"startTime":1102.032,"endTime":1105.692,"body":"Cause that, is just Western culture,"},{"startTime":1102.032,"endTime":1105.692,"body":"corporate America at work full time."},{"startTime":1105.752,"endTime":1110.692,"body":"they are trained to do that in their MBA"},{"startTime":1105.752,"endTime":1110.692,"body":"classes and they're going to try to do it."},{"startTime":1110.722,"endTime":1114.222,"body":"They do budgeting once a year and it"},{"startTime":1110.722,"endTime":1114.222,"body":"takes an act of Congress to get them"},{"startTime":1114.222,"endTime":1118.002,"body":"to change their one time budgeting"},{"startTime":1114.222,"endTime":1118.002,"body":"that they did once a year, a year ago."},{"startTime":1118.267,"endTime":1120.527,"body":"and they don't have the"},{"startTime":1118.267,"endTime":1120.527,"body":"ability to course correct right"},{"startTime":1120.627,"endTime":1122.387,"body":"and how do we know that"},{"startTime":1120.627,"endTime":1122.387,"body":"COVID was going to happen?"},{"startTime":1122.387,"endTime":1125.607,"body":"And between those years, we got to"},{"startTime":1122.387,"endTime":1125.607,"body":"stick to those budget numbers until"},{"startTime":1125.607,"endTime":1127.547,"body":"we are all underwater or whatever."},{"startTime":1127.607,"endTime":1130.257,"body":"You know, we decided what we're living"},{"startTime":1127.607,"endTime":1130.257,"body":"in this house and we're not moving."},{"startTime":1130.257,"endTime":1132.527,"body":"And the flood water is rising and rising."},{"startTime":1132.537,"endTime":1134.197,"body":"Like, when are we going"},{"startTime":1132.537,"endTime":1134.197,"body":"to leave at one point?"},{"startTime":1134.227,"endTime":1136.157,"body":"At what point are we not going"},{"startTime":1134.227,"endTime":1136.157,"body":"to stick to that decision?"},{"startTime":1136.307,"endTime":1139.787,"body":"Anyway, that was Brian's side"},{"startTime":1136.307,"endTime":1139.787,"body":"tangent on why yearly budgeting"},{"startTime":1139.787,"endTime":1141.777,"body":"is insufficient and stupid."},{"startTime":1141.927,"endTime":1144.007,"body":"Bring us back to the pros and the cons."},{"startTime":1144.347,"endTime":1149.147,"body":"One of the pros has got to be, one of the"},{"startTime":1144.347,"endTime":1149.147,"body":"pros of working in this mode where You"},{"startTime":1149.147,"endTime":1151.197,"body":"are kind of jack of all trades, right?"},{"startTime":1151.207,"endTime":1152.247,"body":"You're overburdened."},{"startTime":1152.397,"endTime":1157.987,"body":"If you can survive not being kind of like"},{"startTime":1152.397,"endTime":1157.987,"body":"just simply not being burned out One of"},{"startTime":1157.987,"endTime":1161.577,"body":"the biggest pros has got to be personal"},{"startTime":1157.987,"endTime":1161.577,"body":"growth because you are learning so much"},{"startTime":1161.607,"endTime":1166.077,"body":"right by doing that Yeah I feel like that"},{"startTime":1161.607,"endTime":1166.077,"body":"has A finite lifespan though, because"},{"startTime":1166.077,"endTime":1170.267,"body":"you will then get very quickly from"},{"startTime":1166.077,"endTime":1170.267,"body":"overwork to overburdened to burnt out."},{"startTime":1170.497,"endTime":1174.837,"body":"So if you can kind of stay within that,"},{"startTime":1170.497,"endTime":1174.837,"body":"just shy of burnt out, take your breaks,"},{"startTime":1174.857,"endTime":1177.257,"body":"whatever else you'll learn a lot, right."},{"startTime":1177.277,"endTime":1181.817,"body":"And that will do wonders for you yourself"},{"startTime":1177.277,"endTime":1181.817,"body":"as a professional, as well as your resume."},{"startTime":1181.967,"endTime":1182.627,"body":"I would say this."},{"startTime":1182.657,"endTime":1186.527,"body":"you also have a lot more at"},{"startTime":1182.657,"endTime":1186.527,"body":"bats than other people to"},{"startTime":1186.527,"endTime":1187.827,"body":"grow your leadership skill."},{"startTime":1187.977,"endTime":1192.997,"body":"So that is up to you to mess up or to"},{"startTime":1187.977,"endTime":1192.997,"body":"learn from but you have a lot more at"},{"startTime":1192.997,"endTime":1195.027,"body":"bats in this position to grow leadership."},{"startTime":1195.177,"endTime":1199.087,"body":"You have to be a specialist in product"},{"startTime":1195.177,"endTime":1199.087,"body":"management rather than we just hire"},{"startTime":1199.087,"endTime":1203.217,"body":"somebody in this GM role that we obviously"},{"startTime":1199.087,"endTime":1203.217,"body":"need you got to do the PNLs and you got"},{"startTime":1203.217,"endTime":1206.427,"body":"to do the marketing and you got to, Have"},{"startTime":1203.217,"endTime":1206.427,"body":"a three year plan and you got to have a"},{"startTime":1206.427,"endTime":1209.267,"body":"strategy, but you got to keep your eye"},{"startTime":1206.427,"endTime":1209.267,"body":"on the tactics and you have one foot on"},{"startTime":1209.267,"endTime":1212.797,"body":"that boat and the other foot on the dock"},{"startTime":1209.267,"endTime":1212.797,"body":"or whatever, like all these euphemisms"},{"startTime":1212.797,"endTime":1214.077,"body":"or whatever that we wrap around PM."},{"startTime":1214.147,"endTime":1215.757,"body":"I mean, this is just business leadership."},{"startTime":1215.887,"endTime":1216.517,"body":"That's all it is."},{"startTime":1216.817,"endTime":1218.887,"body":"Business leadership,"},{"startTime":1216.817,"endTime":1218.887,"body":"except without the equity."},{"startTime":1220.577,"endTime":1223.477,"body":"Uh, But yeah, like if I don't"},{"startTime":1220.577,"endTime":1223.477,"body":"know what happened to that being a"},{"startTime":1223.487,"endTime":1224.967,"body":"company, man, like that went away."},{"startTime":1225.117,"endTime":1228.457,"body":"You know, it's been replaced with"},{"startTime":1225.117,"endTime":1228.457,"body":"this list that we're talking about."},{"startTime":1228.647,"endTime":1233.537,"body":"what are some of the other"},{"startTime":1228.647,"endTime":1233.537,"body":"pros of being a generalist?"},{"startTime":1233.827,"endTime":1235.587,"body":"not being too specialized in this way."},{"startTime":1235.867,"endTime":1240.147,"body":"Well, if we're going to go back to"},{"startTime":1235.867,"endTime":1240.147,"body":"the design thinking, system thinking,"},{"startTime":1240.487,"endTime":1245.237,"body":"holistic thinking type of view you need"},{"startTime":1240.487,"endTime":1245.237,"body":"someone with a lot of skill to, if you're"},{"startTime":1245.237,"endTime":1248.307,"body":"really going to be a system thinker,"},{"startTime":1245.237,"endTime":1248.307,"body":"like you can't be a system thinker and"},{"startTime":1248.307,"endTime":1250.507,"body":"not understand deep in the technology."},{"startTime":1250.567,"endTime":1253.937,"body":"you can't be the golf swing guy that"},{"startTime":1250.567,"endTime":1253.937,"body":"I was explaining on the two podcasts"},{"startTime":1253.937,"endTime":1257.017,"body":"ago or whatever where he didn't, he"},{"startTime":1253.937,"endTime":1257.017,"body":"just couldn't, he was an executive,"},{"startTime":1257.017,"endTime":1260.747,"body":"but he just couldn't, anytime you"},{"startTime":1257.017,"endTime":1260.747,"body":"would talk technical, even slightly"},{"startTime":1260.937,"endTime":1265.177,"body":"technical bent even like talking about"},{"startTime":1260.937,"endTime":1265.177,"body":"which HDMI port to plug in the HDMI."},{"startTime":1265.187,"endTime":1268.417,"body":"Like he was out as soon as you started"},{"startTime":1265.187,"endTime":1268.417,"body":"talking technical, anything, he was."},{"startTime":1268.567,"endTime":1269.257,"body":"100 percent out."},{"startTime":1269.407,"endTime":1272.407,"body":"You, that guy will never"},{"startTime":1269.407,"endTime":1272.407,"body":"be a system thinker."},{"startTime":1272.557,"endTime":1273.477,"body":"I've worked for that guy."},{"startTime":1273.577,"endTime":1275.977,"body":"So usually they just say,"},{"startTime":1273.577,"endTime":1275.977,"body":"Oh, that's technical."},{"startTime":1276.027,"endTime":1277.417,"body":"I'm going to bring my architect in here."},{"startTime":1277.477,"endTime":1277.757,"body":"right."},{"startTime":1277.887,"endTime":1278.737,"body":"No, I agree with you."},{"startTime":1278.737,"endTime":1282.167,"body":"I think people should have"},{"startTime":1278.737,"endTime":1282.167,"body":"enough knowledge to stand on"},{"startTime":1282.167,"endTime":1283.327,"body":"their feet and talk about it."},{"startTime":1283.537,"endTime":1286.077,"body":"that doesn't mean they"},{"startTime":1283.537,"endTime":1286.077,"body":"have to be so detailed."},{"startTime":1286.077,"endTime":1288.897,"body":"Cause you do need those architects"},{"startTime":1286.077,"endTime":1288.897,"body":"for that level of discussion."},{"startTime":1289.047,"endTime":1290.257,"body":"But yeah, I absolutely agree."},{"startTime":1290.407,"endTime":1293.847,"body":"To me one of the pros is depending"},{"startTime":1290.407,"endTime":1293.847,"body":"on where you are in your product"},{"startTime":1293.887,"endTime":1296.067,"body":"career is to be able to have options."},{"startTime":1296.327,"endTime":1300.767,"body":"So if you're a generalist and you're"},{"startTime":1296.327,"endTime":1300.767,"body":"doing all of those things, your options"},{"startTime":1300.767,"endTime":1302.637,"body":"are practically unlimited at that point."},{"startTime":1302.787,"endTime":1307.217,"body":"If you're already in one of these"},{"startTime":1302.787,"endTime":1307.217,"body":"niche areas, you're stuck there, right?"},{"startTime":1307.417,"endTime":1312.517,"body":"And for you to get out of that bucket"},{"startTime":1307.417,"endTime":1312.517,"body":"and jump into another bucket, It's hard."},{"startTime":1312.687,"endTime":1314.677,"body":"It's hard because you've"},{"startTime":1312.687,"endTime":1314.677,"body":"got to now somehow."},{"startTime":1314.827,"endTime":1318.877,"body":"profess enough knowledge about that"},{"startTime":1314.827,"endTime":1318.877,"body":"other vertical expertise, right?"},{"startTime":1319.197,"endTime":1320.627,"body":"And you haven't learned it."},{"startTime":1320.777,"endTime":1322.227,"body":"Yeah, that is a hundred percent true."},{"startTime":1322.227,"endTime":1327.817,"body":"I mean, if you're going to label"},{"startTime":1322.227,"endTime":1327.817,"body":"yourself as a AI FinTech AI specialist,"},{"startTime":1327.827,"endTime":1329.417,"body":"product manager, I mean, that's great."},{"startTime":1329.647,"endTime":1334.887,"body":"And that career fields specialization"},{"startTime":1329.647,"endTime":1334.887,"body":"might be wide enough for you to."},{"startTime":1335.037,"endTime":1338.147,"body":"work forever in it assuming that"},{"startTime":1335.037,"endTime":1338.147,"body":"AI doesn't dry up overnight and"},{"startTime":1338.147,"endTime":1341.227,"body":"everyone's like, yeah, we added AI"},{"startTime":1338.147,"endTime":1341.227,"body":"to all of our products and we saw"},{"startTime":1341.227,"endTime":1343.227,"body":"no bottom line margin increase."},{"startTime":1343.377,"endTime":1345.857,"body":"We're kicking this stuff to the"},{"startTime":1343.377,"endTime":1345.857,"body":"curb, which I don't expect to  same"},{"startTime":1345.857,"endTime":1349.147,"body":"thing with the technical, I don't"},{"startTime":1345.857,"endTime":1349.147,"body":"see that going away anytime soon."},{"startTime":1349.297,"endTime":1352.107,"body":"You know, a lot of people that hire"},{"startTime":1349.297,"endTime":1352.107,"body":"product managers, especially for"},{"startTime":1352.107,"endTime":1354.947,"body":"the first time, they have difficulty"},{"startTime":1352.107,"endTime":1354.947,"body":"talking to their development teams."},{"startTime":1354.977,"endTime":1357.217,"body":"they're looking for someone, so"},{"startTime":1354.977,"endTime":1357.217,"body":"they're going to hire a technical."},{"startTime":1357.367,"endTime":1360.927,"body":"Product manager thinking that that will"},{"startTime":1357.367,"endTime":1360.927,"body":"because the person is more technical"},{"startTime":1360.927,"endTime":1363.697,"body":"than your general product manager,"},{"startTime":1360.927,"endTime":1363.697,"body":"they will have a better opportunity."},{"startTime":1363.697,"endTime":1364.567,"body":"That's what the business thinks."},{"startTime":1364.567,"endTime":1366.187,"body":"I mean, they're not"},{"startTime":1364.567,"endTime":1366.187,"body":"basing it off of anything."},{"startTime":1366.277,"endTime":1366.627,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1366.667,"endTime":1367.927,"body":"That's just that's what they think."},{"startTime":1368.077,"endTime":1371.217,"body":"Yeah it's the same thing with a"},{"startTime":1368.077,"endTime":1371.217,"body":"lot of these other categories."},{"startTime":1371.277,"endTime":1371.757,"body":"Honestly."},{"startTime":1372.047,"endTime":1374.287,"body":"Another, another con would"},{"startTime":1372.047,"endTime":1374.287,"body":"be context switching."},{"startTime":1374.297,"endTime":1377.687,"body":"Like this is one of those ones that"},{"startTime":1374.297,"endTime":1377.687,"body":"along with scope creep and lack of"},{"startTime":1377.687,"endTime":1381.017,"body":"support together, if you can get"},{"startTime":1377.687,"endTime":1381.017,"body":"good at dodging the one, two punch"},{"startTime":1381.087,"endTime":1384.097,"body":"of those two things you're going to"},{"startTime":1381.087,"endTime":1384.097,"body":"get beat up by context switching to"},{"startTime":1384.107,"endTime":1386.697,"body":"these are all the things that honestly,"},{"startTime":1384.107,"endTime":1386.697,"body":"this con list is just all things"},{"startTime":1386.697,"endTime":1390.587,"body":"that are going to burn you out and"},{"startTime":1386.697,"endTime":1390.587,"body":"either force the company to say, this"},{"startTime":1390.587,"endTime":1394.377,"body":"person is not as starry eyed as we"},{"startTime":1390.587,"endTime":1394.377,"body":"want, we're going to force them out."},{"startTime":1394.527,"endTime":1399.872,"body":"And replace him with someone I was going"},{"startTime":1394.527,"endTime":1399.872,"body":"to say younger But yeah, that's a podcast"},{"startTime":1399.882,"endTime":1403.702,"body":"that a lot of people probably want us to"},{"startTime":1399.882,"endTime":1403.702,"body":"do but I've been resisting for a while."},{"startTime":1403.852,"endTime":1405.252,"body":"corporate America, they're so weird."},{"startTime":1405.252,"endTime":1407.132,"body":"they want someone with eight"},{"startTime":1405.252,"endTime":1407.132,"body":"years experience, but they"},{"startTime":1407.132,"endTime":1408.632,"body":"don't want anyone over 50."},{"startTime":1408.782,"endTime":1409.712,"body":"This is so strange."},{"startTime":1409.712,"endTime":1412.812,"body":"Like you want a 25 year old with"},{"startTime":1409.712,"endTime":1412.812,"body":"eight years experience in A."},{"startTime":1412.812,"endTime":1413.202,"body":"I."},{"startTime":1413.242,"endTime":1413.462,"body":"M."},{"startTime":1413.462,"endTime":1413.902,"body":"L."},{"startTime":1413.912,"endTime":1415.592,"body":"health care product management."},{"startTime":1415.612,"endTime":1416.022,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":1416.092,"endTime":1417.242,"body":"That's exactly what they want."},{"startTime":1417.392,"endTime":1417.652,"body":"When A."},{"startTime":1417.762,"endTime":1417.872,"body":"I."},{"startTime":1417.872,"endTime":1418.042,"body":"M."},{"startTime":1418.042,"endTime":1418.272,"body":"L."},{"startTime":1418.272,"endTime":1420.072,"body":"wasn't even around before"},{"startTime":1418.272,"endTime":1420.072,"body":"they could grow a beard."},{"startTime":1420.272,"endTime":1422.772,"body":"this is the same thing as"},{"startTime":1420.272,"endTime":1422.772,"body":"wanting agile experience."},{"startTime":1422.772,"endTime":1426.252,"body":"Well, they say must have 20 years agile"},{"startTime":1422.772,"endTime":1426.252,"body":"experience and be in your twenties."},{"startTime":1426.402,"endTime":1427.042,"body":"Come on, right?"},{"startTime":1427.192,"endTime":1427.982,"body":"Yeah, it's the same thing."},{"startTime":1428.042,"endTime":1429.632,"body":"That could be a whole podcast by itself."},{"startTime":1429.662,"endTime":1432.932,"body":"But yeah, I mean, that context"},{"startTime":1429.662,"endTime":1432.932,"body":"switching getting beat up is, I mean,"},{"startTime":1432.932,"endTime":1435.972,"body":"if you're doing marketing activities,"},{"startTime":1432.932,"endTime":1435.972,"body":"if you're doing business leadership,"},{"startTime":1436.012,"endTime":1437.157,"body":"basically business leadership, okay?"},{"startTime":1437.157,"endTime":1440.232,"body":"If you're doing marketing activities,"},{"startTime":1437.157,"endTime":1440.232,"body":"you're cross team coordination and all"},{"startTime":1440.232,"endTime":1442.722,"body":"that, everything that's involved in"},{"startTime":1440.232,"endTime":1442.722,"body":"there, you're building a strategy, you're"},{"startTime":1442.722,"endTime":1445.502,"body":"coming to consistent with stakeholders,"},{"startTime":1442.722,"endTime":1445.502,"body":"and you're working with development"},{"startTime":1445.502,"endTime":1447.852,"body":"teams, and customers, and customers,"},{"startTime":1447.902,"endTime":1450.862,"body":"And you're refining backlogs and doing"},{"startTime":1447.902,"endTime":1450.862,"body":"everything we normally talk about."},{"startTime":1451.132,"endTime":1453.242,"body":"You're doing, I mean, you're"},{"startTime":1451.132,"endTime":1453.242,"body":"doing an incredible And now"},{"startTime":1453.242,"endTime":1454.312,"body":"you're doing it for two teams."},{"startTime":1454.462,"endTime":1456.562,"body":"So basically you're doing two"},{"startTime":1454.462,"endTime":1456.562,"body":"jobs for the company for free."},{"startTime":1456.812,"endTime":1460.122,"body":"The amount of context switching now,"},{"startTime":1456.812,"endTime":1460.122,"body":"just between strategy and team level."},{"startTime":1460.367,"endTime":1461.747,"body":"Just that context switching."},{"startTime":1461.897,"endTime":1462.417,"body":"Incredible."},{"startTime":1462.417,"endTime":1464.247,"body":"That's an incredible limit"},{"startTime":1462.417,"endTime":1464.247,"body":"on context switching."},{"startTime":1464.267,"endTime":1466.807,"body":"So would you want to fly on"},{"startTime":1464.267,"endTime":1466.807,"body":"a plane or a pilot switching"},{"startTime":1466.807,"endTime":1468.267,"body":"context like that all the time?"},{"startTime":1468.327,"endTime":1471.347,"body":"I don't think I would take"},{"startTime":1468.327,"endTime":1471.347,"body":"my chances driving seriously."},{"startTime":1471.397,"endTime":1474.117,"body":"That's a lot of context"},{"startTime":1471.397,"endTime":1474.117,"body":"switching in the cost."},{"startTime":1474.367,"endTime":1477.907,"body":"You know, I mean, hopefully most"},{"startTime":1474.367,"endTime":1477.907,"body":"people recognize that the cost of"},{"startTime":1477.907,"endTime":1479.617,"body":"context switching between two things."},{"startTime":1479.767,"endTime":1481.127,"body":"The overhead there is 20%."},{"startTime":1481.387,"endTime":1481.887,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1481.917,"endTime":1482.927,"body":"And this has been proven."},{"startTime":1482.937,"endTime":1486.737,"body":"So some smart people did the work and"},{"startTime":1482.937,"endTime":1486.737,"body":"they said, that's what it is, 20%."},{"startTime":1486.757,"endTime":1490.507,"body":"So if you're context switching between"},{"startTime":1486.757,"endTime":1490.507,"body":"three things, 40 percent and so on,"},{"startTime":1490.657,"endTime":1493.917,"body":"how many things can you switch context"},{"startTime":1490.657,"endTime":1493.917,"body":"between anyway, at that point, right?"},{"startTime":1494.257,"endTime":1497.867,"body":"That is just the cost, but"},{"startTime":1494.257,"endTime":1497.867,"body":"there's also this idea of when you"},{"startTime":1497.867,"endTime":1499.617,"body":"switch, it's not just the cost."},{"startTime":1499.767,"endTime":1503.807,"body":"It's also that time when you switch,"},{"startTime":1499.767,"endTime":1503.807,"body":"you're not doing something productive."},{"startTime":1503.967,"endTime":1504.177,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1504.197,"endTime":1506.007,"body":"So that cost is actually higher, right?"},{"startTime":1506.157,"endTime":1506.317,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1506.317,"endTime":1511.007,"body":"We're going to have a whole session"},{"startTime":1506.317,"endTime":1511.007,"body":"just on context switching or something"},{"startTime":1511.007,"endTime":1512.127,"body":"along the lines of context switching."},{"startTime":1512.127,"endTime":1515.537,"body":"I don't know, basically"},{"startTime":1512.127,"endTime":1515.537,"body":"being ineffective because."},{"startTime":1515.797,"endTime":1517.257,"body":"You're doing so much context switching."},{"startTime":1517.547,"endTime":1520.507,"body":"You can be really good at your job of"},{"startTime":1517.547,"endTime":1520.507,"body":"product management, but I mean, there's,"},{"startTime":1520.577,"endTime":1522.697,"body":"enough stuff I can, or whatever I wear."},{"startTime":1522.977,"endTime":1525.287,"body":"This whole podcast is wrapped"},{"startTime":1522.977,"endTime":1525.287,"body":"in product management, but it"},{"startTime":1525.287,"endTime":1527.557,"body":"really could have been any role we"},{"startTime":1525.287,"endTime":1527.557,"body":"could be talking about right now."},{"startTime":1527.707,"endTime":1531.497,"body":"I can just layer on additional duties"},{"startTime":1527.707,"endTime":1531.497,"body":"until you're basically useless."},{"startTime":1531.647,"endTime":1533.447,"body":"And then start blaming you."},{"startTime":1533.697,"endTime":1534.587,"body":"For being useless."},{"startTime":1534.607,"endTime":1538.347,"body":"You should have pushed back more on us, or"},{"startTime":1534.607,"endTime":1538.347,"body":"you should have raised your hand and said"},{"startTime":1538.347,"endTime":1542.007,"body":"something, or you should have, you can"},{"startTime":1538.347,"endTime":1542.007,"body":"tell from experience I've been there too."},{"startTime":1542.117,"endTime":1546.397,"body":"So the minute you actually do raise your"},{"startTime":1542.117,"endTime":1546.397,"body":"hand, you're not a team player, right?"},{"startTime":1546.437,"endTime":1546.997,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1546.997,"endTime":1549.257,"body":"So yeah, you're going to get 3."},{"startTime":1549.257,"endTime":1550.317,"body":"5 on that performance review."},{"startTime":1550.327,"endTime":1552.197,"body":"If you didn't you're not"},{"startTime":1550.327,"endTime":1552.197,"body":"getting five stars this year."},{"startTime":1552.347,"endTime":1556.097,"body":"The other pro before we leave the pro"},{"startTime":1552.347,"endTime":1556.097,"body":"and con category, the other pro is if"},{"startTime":1556.097,"endTime":1559.977,"body":"you want that autonomy that is normally"},{"startTime":1556.097,"endTime":1559.977,"body":"afforded to leadership, you can kind of"},{"startTime":1559.987,"endTime":1564.367,"body":"go where the most burning problems are,"},{"startTime":1559.987,"endTime":1564.367,"body":"you can go and put out the fires when"},{"startTime":1564.367,"endTime":1568.077,"body":"you need to or you can jump from strategy"},{"startTime":1564.367,"endTime":1568.077,"body":"to strategy, or pivot, or whatever."},{"startTime":1568.227,"endTime":1570.937,"body":"That is a pro of being"},{"startTime":1568.227,"endTime":1570.937,"body":"one of these specialists."},{"startTime":1570.957,"endTime":1574.457,"body":"Because again, the company is expecting"},{"startTime":1570.957,"endTime":1574.457,"body":"you to be an expert in these fields."},{"startTime":1574.757,"endTime":1577.997,"body":"So they're going to trust you and"},{"startTime":1574.757,"endTime":1577.997,"body":"give you more autonomy than maybe they"},{"startTime":1577.997,"endTime":1580.747,"body":"would a generalist, or maybe they would"},{"startTime":1577.997,"endTime":1580.747,"body":"somebody who's not a product manager,"},{"startTime":1580.747,"endTime":1582.687,"body":"even a developer or something like that."},{"startTime":1582.807,"endTime":1583.037,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1583.037,"endTime":1585.167,"body":"I'd like to believe that's"},{"startTime":1583.037,"endTime":1585.167,"body":"a hundred percent true."},{"startTime":1585.167,"endTime":1587.727,"body":"I think from experience, it's,"},{"startTime":1585.167,"endTime":1587.727,"body":"you've got to be able to."},{"startTime":1587.877,"endTime":1591.087,"body":"You know, grow a spine and seize"},{"startTime":1587.877,"endTime":1591.087,"body":"the autonomy because they don't"},{"startTime":1591.087,"endTime":1592.207,"body":"come out and just say that."},{"startTime":1592.357,"endTime":1595.467,"body":"So yeah, but, but the opportunity"},{"startTime":1592.357,"endTime":1595.467,"body":"is there for you for the taking."},{"startTime":1595.477,"endTime":1595.757,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1596.027,"endTime":1599.067,"body":"And you're able to easily do that"},{"startTime":1596.027,"endTime":1599.067,"body":"compared to the other situation."},{"startTime":1599.067,"endTime":1600.067,"body":"So I do agree with that."},{"startTime":1600.267,"endTime":1602.647,"body":"Since we've been talking, I wrote"},{"startTime":1600.267,"endTime":1602.647,"body":"down healthcare and government"},{"startTime":1602.767,"endTime":1604.487,"body":"as more specializations."},{"startTime":1604.667,"endTime":1606.117,"body":"I'm sure I'm missing specializations."},{"startTime":1606.117,"endTime":1611.477,"body":"If you can think of any other product"},{"startTime":1606.117,"endTime":1611.477,"body":"management specializations while we've"},{"startTime":1611.477,"endTime":1612.807,"body":"been talking, throw them in the comments."},{"startTime":1613.007,"endTime":1617.457,"body":"What to do when you're"},{"startTime":1613.007,"endTime":1617.457,"body":"overburdened as a product manager?"},{"startTime":1617.597,"endTime":1621.227,"body":"obviously you see the market"},{"startTime":1617.597,"endTime":1621.227,"body":"reacting with being overloaded,"},{"startTime":1621.427,"endTime":1622.827,"body":"specialized specialization."},{"startTime":1622.837,"endTime":1624.837,"body":"It seems to be a way"},{"startTime":1622.837,"endTime":1624.837,"body":"out of being overloaded."},{"startTime":1625.167,"endTime":1627.567,"body":"Well, these other tasks Hey, I'm"},{"startTime":1625.167,"endTime":1627.567,"body":"not going to do, I'm not going"},{"startTime":1627.567,"endTime":1629.367,"body":"to do GM product management."},{"startTime":1629.367,"endTime":1631.367,"body":"I'm not going to do"},{"startTime":1629.367,"endTime":1631.367,"body":"technical product management."},{"startTime":1631.367,"endTime":1633.307,"body":"I need to focus on like"},{"startTime":1631.367,"endTime":1633.307,"body":"technical is a great one."},{"startTime":1633.327,"endTime":1634.837,"body":"I'm not going to do"},{"startTime":1633.327,"endTime":1634.837,"body":"technical product management."},{"startTime":1634.987,"endTime":1635.997,"body":"I need to focus on growth."},{"startTime":1636.027,"endTime":1637.417,"body":"I need to do more marketing activities."},{"startTime":1637.417,"endTime":1638.842,"body":"I need to do more of this"},{"startTime":1637.417,"endTime":1638.842,"body":"and that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1638.992,"endTime":1642.402,"body":"Like specialize to get away from the"},{"startTime":1638.992,"endTime":1642.402,"body":"stuff that you don't want to do anymore"},{"startTime":1642.552,"endTime":1646.212,"body":"or I mean, maybe not that but specialize"},{"startTime":1642.552,"endTime":1646.212,"body":"to make sure that your talents are"},{"startTime":1646.212,"endTime":1649.682,"body":"going into Number one what you're good"},{"startTime":1646.212,"endTime":1649.682,"body":"at number two what you enjoy yeah, I"},{"startTime":1649.682,"endTime":1651.162,"body":"agree I think that is the other side."},{"startTime":1651.202,"endTime":1654.212,"body":"So this is the part of the"},{"startTime":1651.202,"endTime":1654.212,"body":"podcast where You'll be able to"},{"startTime":1654.212,"endTime":1657.232,"body":"take something, hopefully, and"},{"startTime":1654.212,"endTime":1657.232,"body":"put it into practice, right?"},{"startTime":1657.452,"endTime":1658.002,"body":"That's our hope."},{"startTime":1658.312,"endTime":1659.202,"body":"So yeah, specialize."},{"startTime":1659.262,"endTime":1659.912,"body":"I mean, by all means."},{"startTime":1659.922,"endTime":1662.892,"body":"If you're specializing, then you're"},{"startTime":1659.922,"endTime":1662.892,"body":"not being overburdened through"},{"startTime":1662.962,"endTime":1664.992,"body":"being a generalist across the board."},{"startTime":1665.322,"endTime":1665.992,"body":"That is true."},{"startTime":1666.142,"endTime":1668.982,"body":"But at the same time, I"},{"startTime":1666.142,"endTime":1668.982,"body":"wouldn't get too comfortable"},{"startTime":1669.002,"endTime":1670.782,"body":"in that specialty, if you will."},{"startTime":1670.932,"endTime":1674.942,"body":"So I'd say, yeah, definitely specialize,"},{"startTime":1670.932,"endTime":1674.942,"body":"but keep that resume updated and look"},{"startTime":1674.942,"endTime":1677.912,"body":"around, look left and right, see where"},{"startTime":1674.942,"endTime":1677.912,"body":"the opportunities are for you to go."},{"startTime":1678.152,"endTime":1682.072,"body":"Maybe you're specializing in an area"},{"startTime":1678.152,"endTime":1682.072,"body":"because the real area that you want to"},{"startTime":1682.082,"endTime":1686.282,"body":"be in, that you aspire to be in is not"},{"startTime":1682.082,"endTime":1686.282,"body":"available to you at your present company."},{"startTime":1686.342,"endTime":1686.452,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1686.452,"endTime":1687.292,"body":"And that's okay."},{"startTime":1687.332,"endTime":1689.792,"body":"That you can treat that"},{"startTime":1687.332,"endTime":1689.792,"body":"as a plan B for now."},{"startTime":1689.942,"endTime":1690.412,"body":"That's okay."},{"startTime":1690.412,"endTime":1690.682,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1690.832,"endTime":1692.282,"body":"I would that specialization thing."},{"startTime":1692.282,"endTime":1696.222,"body":"I like, it's also what, like you"},{"startTime":1692.282,"endTime":1696.222,"body":"mentioned earlier, it could turn into"},{"startTime":1696.222,"endTime":1697.852,"body":"a trap where now it's trapping you."},{"startTime":1697.852,"endTime":1702.362,"body":"Because if you are a"},{"startTime":1697.852,"endTime":1702.362,"body":"healthcare hardware, PM"},{"startTime":1702.512,"endTime":1706.312,"body":"If you're in the healthcare devices"},{"startTime":1702.512,"endTime":1706.312,"body":"space, now you want to jump to"},{"startTime":1706.462,"endTime":1709.402,"body":"enterprise security or something."},{"startTime":1709.402,"endTime":1709.962,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1710.162,"endTime":1712.902,"body":"Like you're going to have a heck"},{"startTime":1710.162,"endTime":1712.902,"body":"of a time escaping the orbit."},{"startTime":1713.052,"endTime":1715.682,"body":"Of where you're at, because they're"},{"startTime":1713.052,"endTime":1715.682,"body":"going to look at you as a health care."},{"startTime":1715.702,"endTime":1716.972,"body":"Well, you're a health care guy."},{"startTime":1717.252,"endTime":1718.152,"body":"You get labeled, don't you?"},{"startTime":1718.162,"endTime":1722.862,"body":"So, I mean, once you go down that road,"},{"startTime":1718.162,"endTime":1722.862,"body":"unless you're willing to be creative about"},{"startTime":1722.862,"endTime":1725.462,"body":"what you put on LinkedIn or whatever,"},{"startTime":1722.862,"endTime":1725.462,"body":"you're going to be in that orbit."},{"startTime":1725.732,"endTime":1727.092,"body":"Just be mindful of that trap though."},{"startTime":1727.092,"endTime":1727.552,"body":"exactly."},{"startTime":1727.552,"endTime":1730.452,"body":"So maybe you really want to be in"},{"startTime":1727.552,"endTime":1730.452,"body":"software and you can't because you"},{"startTime":1730.452,"endTime":1732.162,"body":"work at a, Healthcare devices company."},{"startTime":1732.312,"endTime":1732.632,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1732.782,"endTime":1734.582,"body":"So what do you do in that situation?"},{"startTime":1734.632,"endTime":1738.442,"body":"I'd be looking to make sure that"},{"startTime":1734.632,"endTime":1738.442,"body":"you learn about software, first of"},{"startTime":1738.442,"endTime":1741.122,"body":"all, so you can have a meaningful"},{"startTime":1738.442,"endTime":1741.122,"body":"conversation at the minimum."},{"startTime":1741.272,"endTime":1745.352,"body":"But maybe your devices do use some"},{"startTime":1741.272,"endTime":1745.352,"body":"kind of firmware, software, etc."},{"startTime":1745.652,"endTime":1746.722,"body":"try and get ahead of that."},{"startTime":1747.012,"endTime":1748.622,"body":"So you can have a conversation about it."},{"startTime":1748.742,"endTime":1751.932,"body":"Well, that goes along to"},{"startTime":1748.742,"endTime":1751.932,"body":"continuing your education."},{"startTime":1751.932,"endTime":1753.942,"body":"I don't mean education"},{"startTime":1751.932,"endTime":1753.942,"body":"meaning like formal education."},{"startTime":1754.072,"endTime":1756.402,"body":"I'm not saying go out to get your"},{"startTime":1754.072,"endTime":1756.402,"body":"MBA or whatever But continuing"},{"startTime":1756.402,"endTime":1759.902,"body":"to educate yourself on basically"},{"startTime":1756.402,"endTime":1759.902,"body":"what I was saying about the"},{"startTime":1760.222,"endTime":1761.572,"body":"three year technology turnaround."},{"startTime":1761.572,"endTime":1762.622,"body":"Like continually."},{"startTime":1762.817,"endTime":1766.707,"body":"Re educating yourself on what's in the"},{"startTime":1762.817,"endTime":1766.707,"body":"market, what the trends are, what the"},{"startTime":1766.707,"endTime":1771.007,"body":"new technology is, using it, figuring"},{"startTime":1766.707,"endTime":1771.007,"body":"out how to pull it into your day to day"},{"startTime":1771.007,"endTime":1774.177,"body":"actually use it day to day, not just"},{"startTime":1771.007,"endTime":1774.177,"body":"taking a class occasionally, actually"},{"startTime":1774.177,"endTime":1776.137,"body":"pull it into your day to day somehow."},{"startTime":1776.157,"endTime":1777.687,"body":"I think AI is a great example of that."},{"startTime":1777.737,"endTime":1780.037,"body":"You have to do it"},{"startTime":1777.737,"endTime":1780.037,"body":"judiciously, obviously, right?"},{"startTime":1780.037,"endTime":1783.387,"body":"If you're in the healthcare devices"},{"startTime":1780.037,"endTime":1783.387,"body":"market, you could still use AI"},{"startTime":1783.757,"endTime":1787.427,"body":"for analytics, You can give it a"},{"startTime":1783.757,"endTime":1787.427,"body":"whole bunch of data and say, find"},{"startTime":1787.427,"endTime":1789.027,"body":"me the meaning out of this data."},{"startTime":1789.027,"endTime":1791.477,"body":"And it's going to do charts"},{"startTime":1789.027,"endTime":1791.477,"body":"for you, for example, right?"},{"startTime":1791.677,"endTime":1793.187,"body":"It's going to do all of"},{"startTime":1791.677,"endTime":1793.187,"body":"those kinds of things."},{"startTime":1793.417,"endTime":1794.617,"body":"So yeah, I agree with you."},{"startTime":1794.837,"endTime":1797.037,"body":"Stay educated on these things."},{"startTime":1797.077,"endTime":1800.177,"body":"Not necessarily formally educated,"},{"startTime":1797.077,"endTime":1800.177,"body":"but learn about these things."},{"startTime":1800.417,"endTime":1803.517,"body":"And the other thing is connect"},{"startTime":1800.417,"endTime":1803.517,"body":"with people that are in the"},{"startTime":1803.517,"endTime":1804.827,"body":"space that you want to be in."},{"startTime":1804.877,"endTime":1808.477,"body":"Well, along with connect with"},{"startTime":1804.877,"endTime":1808.477,"body":"people, I would formalize that."},{"startTime":1808.627,"endTime":1812.737,"body":"How I would formalize that and wrap"},{"startTime":1808.627,"endTime":1812.737,"body":"it up for our conversation is, I"},{"startTime":1812.737,"endTime":1816.917,"body":"would say you need to build a support"},{"startTime":1812.737,"endTime":1816.917,"body":"structure around whatever you're doing."},{"startTime":1816.917,"endTime":1819.457,"body":"So if you're in healthcare"},{"startTime":1816.917,"endTime":1819.457,"body":"devices, like healthcare and"},{"startTime":1819.457,"endTime":1821.077,"body":"hardware is your specialization PM."},{"startTime":1821.227,"endTime":1821.467,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1821.467,"endTime":1824.172,"body":"We'll build a support structure"},{"startTime":1821.467,"endTime":1824.172,"body":"in the healthcare field."},{"startTime":1824.322,"endTime":1827.902,"body":"You know, hardware PMs field, basically"},{"startTime":1824.322,"endTime":1827.902,"body":"start building that network, whatever"},{"startTime":1828.092,"endTime":1829.542,"body":"it doesn't have to be hyper specific."},{"startTime":1829.552,"endTime":1830.772,"body":"It could be outer rings."},{"startTime":1830.772,"endTime":1833.862,"body":"Maybe start linking up with all the"},{"startTime":1830.772,"endTime":1833.862,"body":"rest of the PMs that are in that market."},{"startTime":1834.102,"endTime":1835.682,"body":"But build your own support structure."},{"startTime":1835.832,"endTime":1838.582,"body":"So there's two sides of this that"},{"startTime":1835.832,"endTime":1838.582,"body":"I think there's building a support"},{"startTime":1838.582,"endTime":1840.812,"body":"structure, Inside of your organization."},{"startTime":1840.962,"endTime":1843.122,"body":"But when I'm saying it, I'm"},{"startTime":1840.962,"endTime":1843.122,"body":"thinking about building your own"},{"startTime":1843.122,"endTime":1846.422,"body":"support structure outside of the"},{"startTime":1843.122,"endTime":1846.422,"body":"organization, your own, truly your own."},{"startTime":1846.422,"endTime":1849.512,"body":"So that when a company decides"},{"startTime":1846.422,"endTime":1849.512,"body":"one day it's downturn in the"},{"startTime":1849.522,"endTime":1851.332,"body":"market stock went down 20 cents."},{"startTime":1851.342,"endTime":1854.662,"body":"That you don't get you don't lose"},{"startTime":1851.342,"endTime":1854.662,"body":"your whole network because your"},{"startTime":1854.662,"endTime":1857.102,"body":"company decided they just they,"},{"startTime":1854.662,"endTime":1857.102,"body":"they wanted to give somebody a"},{"startTime":1857.102,"endTime":1858.372,"body":"bonus and it wasn't you this year."},{"startTime":1858.702,"endTime":1860.912,"body":"Like I, I'm, I think you can do both."},{"startTime":1861.152,"endTime":1864.472,"body":"I don't think it's super difficult,"},{"startTime":1861.152,"endTime":1864.472,"body":"but if I had to prioritize one, I don't"},{"startTime":1864.472,"endTime":1867.622,"body":"know, I don't know which one I think I"},{"startTime":1864.472,"endTime":1867.622,"body":"might prioritize outside of the company."},{"startTime":1867.662,"endTime":1868.602,"body":"I definitely agree."},{"startTime":1868.602,"endTime":1871.422,"body":"I mean, outside first"},{"startTime":1868.602,"endTime":1871.422,"body":"and then inside as well."},{"startTime":1871.422,"endTime":1872.012,"body":"So it's not, it's not."},{"startTime":1872.172,"endTime":1876.912,"body":"Either or necessarily right inside because"},{"startTime":1872.172,"endTime":1876.912,"body":"You can definitely forge opportunities"},{"startTime":1876.912,"endTime":1881.072,"body":"to create a support structure for"},{"startTime":1876.912,"endTime":1881.072,"body":"the other PMs and act as a mentor"},{"startTime":1881.172,"endTime":1883.702,"body":"or, you know seek mentorship, right?"},{"startTime":1883.722,"endTime":1886.822,"body":"Maybe there are people that are"},{"startTime":1883.722,"endTime":1886.822,"body":"more senior than you PM wise, right."},{"startTime":1887.012,"endTime":1891.332,"body":"That was interesting because they"},{"startTime":1887.012,"endTime":1891.332,"body":"don't even need to be PM mentors."},{"startTime":1891.332,"endTime":1893.892,"body":"I mean, a lot of what we talked"},{"startTime":1891.332,"endTime":1893.892,"body":"about today was leadership."},{"startTime":1893.892,"endTime":1896.252,"body":"Yeah, they can be"},{"startTime":1893.892,"endTime":1896.252,"body":"leadership mentors as well."},{"startTime":1896.452,"endTime":1898.692,"body":"It really is like, what"},{"startTime":1896.452,"endTime":1898.692,"body":"do you need mentoring in?"},{"startTime":1898.792,"endTime":1900.322,"body":"You know, what, where"},{"startTime":1898.792,"endTime":1900.322,"body":"are you looking to go?"},{"startTime":1900.372,"endTime":1902.552,"body":"A lot of that we can't"},{"startTime":1900.372,"endTime":1902.552,"body":"we can't generalize it."},{"startTime":1902.552,"endTime":1907.572,"body":"We need to be tailored to one person, but"},{"startTime":1902.552,"endTime":1907.572,"body":"figure out what, like you, like assessing"},{"startTime":1907.572,"endTime":1909.282,"body":"your role, like the role that you're in."},{"startTime":1909.432,"endTime":1912.942,"body":"The things that you do day to"},{"startTime":1909.432,"endTime":1912.942,"body":"day and how they've you know,"},{"startTime":1912.942,"endTime":1913.842,"body":"how they've grown over time."},{"startTime":1914.862,"endTime":1917.682,"body":"Like most people don't even take a step"},{"startTime":1914.862,"endTime":1917.682,"body":"back and say like, Hey, What am I doing"},{"startTime":1917.682,"endTime":1919.882,"body":"today that I was not doing a year ago?"},{"startTime":1919.882,"endTime":1920.282,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1920.422,"endTime":1923.122,"body":"And then looking at the diff because"},{"startTime":1920.422,"endTime":1923.122,"body":"usually with the corporate America"},{"startTime":1923.132,"endTime":1927.082,"body":"comeback, we'll be like, well, if you want"},{"startTime":1923.132,"endTime":1927.082,"body":"a bonus, you've got to justify why we're"},{"startTime":1927.082,"endTime":1929.302,"body":"going to pay you X percentage more money."},{"startTime":1929.352,"endTime":1932.762,"body":"you gotta be working the new job"},{"startTime":1929.352,"endTime":1932.762,"body":"first before we give you to a new,"},{"startTime":1932.762,"endTime":1936.212,"body":"yeah, there's a lot of gaslighting"},{"startTime":1932.762,"endTime":1936.212,"body":"stuff I've heard over my career with"},{"startTime":1936.242,"endTime":1937.822,"body":"corporate America which is nonsense."},{"startTime":1937.862,"endTime":1940.512,"body":"all you should say is like, Hey, I've"},{"startTime":1937.862,"endTime":1940.512,"body":"taken on these new responsibilities."},{"startTime":1940.682,"endTime":1944.942,"body":"There's these jobs that I'm looking at"},{"startTime":1940.682,"endTime":1944.942,"body":"that are commensurate with my job role"},{"startTime":1944.982,"endTime":1946.602,"body":"and these new responsibilities I'm doing."},{"startTime":1946.882,"endTime":1948.122,"body":"Here's what the pay ranges are."},{"startTime":1948.272,"endTime":1951.812,"body":"You know now please pay me like that,"},{"startTime":1948.272,"endTime":1951.812,"body":"that's because you've done more work"},{"startTime":1951.862,"endTime":1955.552,"body":"than HR and everyone involved in this"},{"startTime":1951.862,"endTime":1955.552,"body":"conversation is ever going to do."},{"startTime":1955.602,"endTime":1957.352,"body":"they're trying to do the same"},{"startTime":1955.602,"endTime":1957.352,"body":"thing they're doing from day to"},{"startTime":1957.352,"endTime":1959.102,"body":"day without any additional stuff."},{"startTime":1959.312,"endTime":1961.382,"body":"And they hope that you're going"},{"startTime":1959.312,"endTime":1961.382,"body":"to go away and just take it."},{"startTime":1961.582,"endTime":1962.242,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1962.242,"endTime":1964.912,"body":"And I also think to just to extend"},{"startTime":1962.242,"endTime":1964.912,"body":"that they're going to do what"},{"startTime":1964.912,"endTime":1968.992,"body":"they're, is you go and say, look,"},{"startTime":1964.912,"endTime":1968.992,"body":"I've done all of these on my own and"},{"startTime":1969.042,"endTime":1970.482,"body":"I believe I should be paid fairly."},{"startTime":1970.672,"endTime":1971.962,"body":"So pay me and they're going to go, Nope."},{"startTime":1972.112,"endTime":1973.612,"body":"And you're going to go,"},{"startTime":1972.112,"endTime":1973.612,"body":"okay, I'm going to leave."},{"startTime":1973.712,"endTime":1974.662,"body":"that's what will happen."},{"startTime":1974.812,"endTime":1978.582,"body":"Unfortunately I think there's enough"},{"startTime":1974.812,"endTime":1978.582,"body":"evidence out there for me to say this."},{"startTime":1978.732,"endTime":1980.962,"body":"With some authority that that's"},{"startTime":1978.732,"endTime":1980.962,"body":"exactly what will happen."},{"startTime":1980.962,"endTime":1982.542,"body":"they will not give you"},{"startTime":1980.962,"endTime":1982.542,"body":"what you're looking for."},{"startTime":1982.542,"endTime":1984.692,"body":"You will leave, they"},{"startTime":1982.542,"endTime":1984.692,"body":"will hire somebody else."},{"startTime":1984.842,"endTime":1986.972,"body":"And they will pay them"},{"startTime":1984.842,"endTime":1986.972,"body":"what you were asking for."},{"startTime":1987.012,"endTime":1991.282,"body":"Or they will hire multiple people because"},{"startTime":1987.012,"endTime":1991.282,"body":"again, the one, two punch combination"},{"startTime":1991.282,"endTime":1995.192,"body":"is lack of support, additional job"},{"startTime":1991.282,"endTime":1995.192,"body":"duties, scope creep that you don't"},{"startTime":1995.192,"endTime":1998.262,"body":"find out as this is a typical thing in"},{"startTime":1995.192,"endTime":1998.262,"body":"corporate America, like you don't find"},{"startTime":1998.262,"endTime":1999.762,"body":"out what somebody did until they're gone."},{"startTime":1999.912,"endTime":2005.301,"body":"I remember many times somebody would"},{"startTime":1999.912,"endTime":2005.301,"body":"leave and they'd get replaced by two"},{"startTime":2005.301,"endTime":2009.361,"body":"people because they were doing so much"},{"startTime":2005.301,"endTime":2009.361,"body":"and also with an advanced level of skill"},{"startTime":2009.511,"endTime":2012.481,"body":"because they'd been in the position"},{"startTime":2009.511,"endTime":2012.481,"body":"for a while that one person cannot do"},{"startTime":2012.481,"endTime":2015.991,"body":"their job, Now you've got to hire two"},{"startTime":2012.481,"endTime":2015.991,"body":"people basically to replace one advance."},{"startTime":2015.991,"endTime":2017.181,"body":"We're seeing that all the time."},{"startTime":2017.321,"endTime":2017.741,"body":"Definitely."},{"startTime":2017.911,"endTime":2020.041,"body":"This, I mean, there, there's"},{"startTime":2017.911,"endTime":2020.041,"body":"a lot of reasons that we"},{"startTime":2020.041,"endTime":2021.401,"body":"just outlined in the podcast."},{"startTime":2021.551,"endTime":2023.521,"body":"About why specialization happens."},{"startTime":2023.581,"endTime":2026.631,"body":"I mean it could be a tactic"},{"startTime":2023.581,"endTime":2026.631,"body":"but it cuts both ways."},{"startTime":2026.971,"endTime":2031.551,"body":"And I, for me personally, it's"},{"startTime":2026.971,"endTime":2031.551,"body":"a tactic that I would deploy"},{"startTime":2031.701,"endTime":2033.121,"body":"as a short term measure."},{"startTime":2033.381,"endTime":2033.591,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2033.611,"endTime":2035.881,"body":"I don't think I would look at"},{"startTime":2033.611,"endTime":2035.881,"body":"that as this is what I want to"},{"startTime":2035.911,"endTime":2037.441,"body":"be for the foreseeable future."},{"startTime":2037.441,"endTime":2039.321,"body":"It'll just be, here's"},{"startTime":2037.441,"endTime":2039.321,"body":"what I'm going to do now."},{"startTime":2039.471,"endTime":2040.411,"body":"I really want to do this."},{"startTime":2040.411,"endTime":2040.641,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2040.791,"endTime":2041.521,"body":"That's just me though."},{"startTime":2041.591,"endTime":2041.931,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2041.961,"endTime":2046.801,"body":"I mean, like for me, I would rather"},{"startTime":2041.961,"endTime":2046.801,"body":"brand myself as an experienced senior PM"},{"startTime":2046.821,"endTime":2048.431,"body":"really, then go down the specialist route."},{"startTime":2048.431,"endTime":2051.931,"body":"I mean, if I did go down a specialist"},{"startTime":2048.431,"endTime":2051.931,"body":"route, I could go down the technical"},{"startTime":2051.931,"endTime":2055.502,"body":"route, the data or platform or"},{"startTime":2051.931,"endTime":2055.502,"body":"mobile I've worked on all those."},{"startTime":2055.582,"endTime":2060.112,"body":"But I don't know, just by boxing myself"},{"startTime":2055.582,"endTime":2060.112,"body":"into one of these specializations"},{"startTime":2060.112,"endTime":2061.382,"body":"just doesn't seem I don't know."},{"startTime":2061.392,"endTime":2062.882,"body":"It seems scary for some reason."},{"startTime":2062.882,"endTime":2064.452,"body":"I don't know why it is scary."},{"startTime":2064.452,"endTime":2066.772,"body":"But again, you've just got to"},{"startTime":2064.452,"endTime":2066.772,"body":"be astute about this, I think."},{"startTime":2066.772,"endTime":2067.652,"body":"So if you saw."},{"startTime":2067.802,"endTime":2071.962,"body":"Hypothetically speaking, if you saw"},{"startTime":2067.802,"endTime":2071.962,"body":"a job that specifically focused on,"},{"startTime":2071.972,"endTime":2075.912,"body":"let's say, the government side of"},{"startTime":2071.972,"endTime":2075.912,"body":"things, your product, you could shape"},{"startTime":2075.912,"endTime":2077.742,"body":"your resume up that way for that job."},{"startTime":2078.062,"endTime":2082.652,"body":"Likewise, with data side of things, for"},{"startTime":2078.062,"endTime":2082.652,"body":"example, or quality or whatever, pick"},{"startTime":2082.652,"endTime":2084.162,"body":"something that you're good at, right?"},{"startTime":2084.362,"endTime":2087.902,"body":"But if you have not worked in the"},{"startTime":2084.362,"endTime":2087.902,"body":"space, then just be careful because"},{"startTime":2087.902,"endTime":2088.701,"body":"you can't really focus on that."},{"startTime":2089.032,"endTime":2090.252,"body":"Fake it like that."},{"startTime":2090.352,"endTime":2091.512,"body":"Although we know people do."},{"startTime":2091.532,"endTime":2091.802,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2091.802,"endTime":2092.012,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2092.052,"endTime":2092.962,"body":"You shouldn't do that."},{"startTime":2093.132,"endTime":2095.152,"body":"So we've never worked in a"},{"startTime":2093.132,"endTime":2095.152,"body":"global company in your life."},{"startTime":2095.172,"endTime":2097.732,"body":"You can't say I'm a a"},{"startTime":2095.172,"endTime":2097.732,"body":"global product person."},{"startTime":2097.862,"endTime":2099.662,"body":"It's like, no, it's a small globe."},{"startTime":2099.722,"endTime":2099.992,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2100.102,"endTime":2100.312,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2100.312,"endTime":2102.342,"body":"Leave that to the people"},{"startTime":2100.312,"endTime":2102.342,"body":"that play golf with the CEO."},{"startTime":2102.352,"endTime":2103.272,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2103.282,"endTime":2104.042,"body":"Well those guys."},{"startTime":2104.362,"endTime":2106.902,"body":"They just walk in, they"},{"startTime":2104.362,"endTime":2106.902,"body":"walk on air, basically."},{"startTime":2106.912,"endTime":2107.971,"body":"That's right, that's right."},{"startTime":2107.972,"endTime":2108.542,"body":". Absolutely."},{"startTime":2108.862,"endTime":2110.072,"body":"That's a weird ending as I know."},{"startTime":2110.122,"endTime":2113.322,"body":"And if you're not, then everybody"},{"startTime":2110.122,"endTime":2113.322,"body":"else, make friends with the"},{"startTime":2113.322,"endTime":2114.622,"body":"CEO and play golf with them."},{"startTime":2114.632,"endTime":2115.152,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2115.222,"endTime":2118.702,"body":"And keep that resume updated because you"},{"startTime":2115.222,"endTime":2118.702,"body":"never know when you'll be in a golf game"},{"startTime":2118.702,"endTime":2120.982,"body":"and need a resume for a VP of product job."},{"startTime":2121.092,"endTime":2121.662,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2121.812,"endTime":2124.742,"body":"Well, let us know what you guys"},{"startTime":2121.812,"endTime":2124.742,"body":"think about this topic and others."},{"startTime":2124.742,"endTime":2128.272,"body":"You know just down in the comments below"},{"startTime":2124.742,"endTime":2128.272,"body":"we'd be happy to at least consider them."},{"startTime":2128.422,"endTime":2129.832,"body":"And don't forget to like, and subscribe,"}]}