{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":16.888,"body":"In this episode, Om and , I are going to"},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":16.888,"body":"be discussing the term cognitive load."},{"startTime":17.118,"endTime":20.278,"body":"Anybody in the agile space"},{"startTime":17.118,"endTime":20.278,"body":"understands the term cognitive load."},{"startTime":20.538,"endTime":22.068,"body":"Here is the original paper."},{"startTime":22.218,"endTime":23.938,"body":"That coined the term cognitive load."},{"startTime":24.088,"endTime":27.618,"body":"The title of the paper is called"},{"startTime":24.088,"endTime":27.618,"body":"Cognitive Load During Problem Solving"},{"startTime":27.778,"endTime":32.978,"body":"Effects on Learning by John Sweller"},{"startTime":27.778,"endTime":32.978,"body":"from the University of New South Wales."},{"startTime":33.128,"endTime":33.678,"body":"Australia."},{"startTime":33.858,"endTime":37.828,"body":"Not to be confused with the University"},{"startTime":33.858,"endTime":37.828,"body":"of Old South Wales, but this is the"},{"startTime":37.828,"endTime":42.398,"body":"paper the paper's honestly relatively"},{"startTime":37.828,"endTime":42.398,"body":"short is the 29 pages total, including"},{"startTime":42.398,"endTime":44.408,"body":"the title page and the references pages."},{"startTime":44.558,"endTime":45.818,"body":"It reads pretty quick."},{"startTime":45.968,"endTime":47.298,"body":"For the purposes of this podcast."},{"startTime":47.348,"endTime":51.788,"body":"We're going to use the conclusion"},{"startTime":47.348,"endTime":51.788,"body":"section to start our discussion."},{"startTime":51.938,"endTime":56.028,"body":"Because the purpose of the paper is to"},{"startTime":51.938,"endTime":56.028,"body":"suggest that contrary to current practice,"},{"startTime":56.178,"endTime":60.408,"body":"many cognitive theories, some forms of"},{"startTime":56.178,"endTime":60.408,"body":"problem solving interfere with learning."},{"startTime":60.558,"endTime":65.788,"body":"And since knowledge work is essentially"},{"startTime":60.558,"endTime":65.788,"body":"all problem solving, the challenge"},{"startTime":66.058,"endTime":69.088,"body":"presented in this paper, where you"},{"startTime":66.058,"endTime":69.088,"body":"can derive the challenge to our line"},{"startTime":69.088,"endTime":72.338,"body":"of work is, While you're trying to"},{"startTime":69.088,"endTime":72.338,"body":"solve the workday problems of the"},{"startTime":72.338,"endTime":76.718,"body":"business that is inherently interfering"},{"startTime":72.338,"endTime":76.718,"body":"with the process of learning."},{"startTime":76.868,"endTime":80.858,"body":"So let's see if we can find a better,"},{"startTime":76.868,"endTime":80.858,"body":"while we're still on the internet, so"},{"startTime":80.898,"endTime":82.748,"body":"we'll, I think, I think we all agree."},{"startTime":82.748,"endTime":84.638,"body":"We can use Wikipedia as a reference."},{"startTime":84.638,"endTime":85.508,"body":"You're, you're welcome."},{"startTime":85.508,"endTime":86.828,"body":"School teachers all around the world."},{"startTime":87.028,"endTime":90.118,"body":"in cognitive psychology, cognitive"},{"startTime":87.028,"endTime":90.118,"body":"load refers to the amount of"},{"startTime":90.118,"endTime":92.698,"body":"working memory resources used."},{"startTime":92.898,"endTime":96.468,"body":"Cognitive load theory was developed"},{"startTime":92.898,"endTime":96.468,"body":"in the late 80s out of a study of"},{"startTime":96.468,"endTime":99.848,"body":"problem solving by John Sweller, which"},{"startTime":96.468,"endTime":99.848,"body":"is the paper we're reading right now."},{"startTime":99.998,"endTime":103.288,"body":"Sweller argued that instructional"},{"startTime":99.998,"endTime":103.288,"body":"design can be used to reduce"},{"startTime":103.618,"endTime":105.408,"body":"cognitive load in learners."},{"startTime":105.548,"endTime":108.268,"body":"the reason I thought this would"},{"startTime":105.548,"endTime":108.268,"body":"be an interesting topic for us is"},{"startTime":108.268,"endTime":110.108,"body":"because you hear about cognitive load."},{"startTime":110.398,"endTime":113.968,"body":"On development teams a lot so the"},{"startTime":110.398,"endTime":113.968,"body":"team has to manage the environment,"},{"startTime":113.978,"endTime":115.238,"body":"especially small businesses, right?"},{"startTime":115.248,"endTime":116.828,"body":"The team has to manage the environment."},{"startTime":116.988,"endTime":118.918,"body":"The team has to manage the changes."},{"startTime":118.918,"endTime":120.208,"body":"The team has to do feature development."},{"startTime":120.238,"endTime":121.528,"body":"The team has to do support work."},{"startTime":121.528,"endTime":122.236,"body":"they have to be involved in discovery."},{"startTime":122.236,"endTime":126.134,"body":"They have to do their own UI UX."},{"startTime":126.194,"endTime":128.964,"body":"They have to think about architecture"},{"startTime":126.194,"endTime":128.964,"body":"and systems view, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":129.114,"endTime":131.704,"body":"Everything on the previous podcast"},{"startTime":129.114,"endTime":131.704,"body":"that we talked about for product"},{"startTime":131.704,"endTime":134.824,"body":"managers being overloaded and having"},{"startTime":131.704,"endTime":134.824,"body":"to do all these additional tasks."},{"startTime":134.974,"endTime":138.614,"body":"All this is cognitive load"},{"startTime":134.974,"endTime":138.614,"body":"theory that it goes back to."},{"startTime":138.804,"endTime":139.014,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":139.164,"endTime":142.874,"body":"So I think one of the things"},{"startTime":139.164,"endTime":142.874,"body":"to recognize is this isn't new."},{"startTime":142.904,"endTime":144.704,"body":"Obviously you see that"},{"startTime":142.904,"endTime":144.704,"body":"from the paper, right?"},{"startTime":144.704,"endTime":146.094,"body":"This was known back in the eighties."},{"startTime":146.244,"endTime":150.334,"body":"But I think people are now starting to"},{"startTime":146.244,"endTime":150.334,"body":"relate that to really knowledge work"},{"startTime":150.334,"endTime":152.254,"body":"and say it's having a real impact."},{"startTime":152.404,"endTime":153.864,"body":"It's not just theory."},{"startTime":153.884,"endTime":156.364,"body":"This actually has a real"},{"startTime":153.884,"endTime":156.364,"body":"impact on the work that we do."},{"startTime":156.514,"endTime":156.824,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":156.904,"endTime":158.844,"body":"Let's go to the paper and"},{"startTime":156.904,"endTime":158.844,"body":"kick off this podcast."},{"startTime":158.994,"endTime":159.284,"body":"Bam."},{"startTime":159.294,"endTime":159.664,"body":"There it is."},{"startTime":159.814,"endTime":160.034,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":160.044,"endTime":160.844,"body":"So we're on the paper."},{"startTime":160.994,"endTime":162.984,"body":"we're going to hit the"},{"startTime":160.994,"endTime":162.984,"body":"conclusions of the paper."},{"startTime":163.034,"endTime":164.324,"body":"1988, by the way, this paper."},{"startTime":164.324,"endTime":166.984,"body":"He lays out five claims in the conclusion."},{"startTime":167.114,"endTime":169.494,"body":"let's start with number one and"},{"startTime":167.114,"endTime":169.494,"body":"then we'll go down this list."},{"startTime":169.494,"endTime":170.764,"body":"Okay, so number one."},{"startTime":170.914,"endTime":175.244,"body":"He says, both experimental evidence"},{"startTime":170.914,"endTime":175.244,"body":"and theoretical analysis suggest,"},{"startTime":175.404,"endTime":177.024,"body":"What we think and what we observe."},{"startTime":177.044,"endTime":177.474,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":177.624,"endTime":182.014,"body":"That conventional problem solving"},{"startTime":177.624,"endTime":182.014,"body":"through means ends analysis may"},{"startTime":182.014,"endTime":184.014,"body":"impose a heavy cognitive load."},{"startTime":184.214,"endTime":185.914,"body":"So means ends analysis."},{"startTime":185.934,"endTime":191.154,"body":"So if I'm going to give a like 10 second"},{"startTime":185.934,"endTime":191.154,"body":"description of means ends analysis, like"},{"startTime":191.154,"endTime":194.814,"body":"there's whole videos you can go watch"},{"startTime":191.154,"endTime":194.814,"body":"on YouTube about means ends analysis."},{"startTime":195.014,"endTime":195.514,"body":"Trust me."},{"startTime":195.744,"endTime":196.614,"body":"I watched them all."},{"startTime":196.744,"endTime":197.604,"body":"They're really bad."},{"startTime":197.754,"endTime":201.384,"body":"I will tell you right now, not"},{"startTime":197.754,"endTime":201.384,"body":"surprising means ends analysis basically"},{"startTime":201.384,"endTime":204.484,"body":"the process of saying, Hey, this is"},{"startTime":201.384,"endTime":204.484,"body":"our goal for the development team."},{"startTime":204.634,"endTime":206.784,"body":"And I'm going to write down our"},{"startTime":204.634,"endTime":206.784,"body":"goal in the form of an epic."},{"startTime":206.934,"endTime":210.044,"body":"And the team will come in and write"},{"startTime":206.934,"endTime":210.044,"body":"a bunch of stories that fill up that"},{"startTime":210.054,"endTime":214.444,"body":"quote bucket of the epic until we"},{"startTime":210.054,"endTime":214.444,"body":"achieve the goal that the epic was"},{"startTime":214.444,"endTime":219.164,"body":"shooting for that the process that"},{"startTime":214.444,"endTime":219.164,"body":"does that is means ends analysis."},{"startTime":219.264,"endTime":223.104,"body":"So it's basically breaking down an"},{"startTime":219.264,"endTime":223.104,"body":"objective or something like that"},{"startTime":223.104,"endTime":227.924,"body":"into actionable pieces as agilists"},{"startTime":223.104,"endTime":227.924,"body":"know, you know how to do right."},{"startTime":227.964,"endTime":232.114,"body":"Epics feature stories, now, sometimes"},{"startTime":227.964,"endTime":232.114,"body":"like in the, if you read this full"},{"startTime":232.269,"endTime":234.359,"body":"paper again, it's only 20 some pages."},{"startTime":234.359,"endTime":235.949,"body":"So I encourage you to"},{"startTime":234.359,"endTime":235.949,"body":"just read the whole paper."},{"startTime":236.099,"endTime":239.219,"body":"He has several diagrams and whatnot"},{"startTime":236.099,"endTime":239.219,"body":"that says like, well, you'll start"},{"startTime":239.249,"endTime":242.579,"body":"breaking down the work and you"},{"startTime":239.249,"endTime":242.579,"body":"won't know what the goal in mind is."},{"startTime":242.589,"endTime":244.079,"body":"So there's a different process for that."},{"startTime":244.289,"endTime":247.999,"body":"And he has flow charts and he"},{"startTime":244.289,"endTime":247.999,"body":"has diagrams and he has the red"},{"startTime":247.999,"endTime":249.909,"body":"strings and the conspiracy diagram."},{"startTime":250.059,"endTime":253.779,"body":"But basically he's saying if you"},{"startTime":250.059,"endTime":253.779,"body":"don't know the goal, you have to"},{"startTime":253.819,"endTime":257.309,"body":"get through all the work to find"},{"startTime":253.819,"endTime":257.309,"body":"your way to the goal and the sub"},{"startTime":257.309,"endTime":258.619,"body":"goals to be able to reach the goal."},{"startTime":258.769,"endTime":261.549,"body":"But there's a whole process to"},{"startTime":258.769,"endTime":261.549,"body":"go through, but that the claim,"},{"startTime":261.699,"endTime":262.659,"body":"I have to go back to the claim."},{"startTime":262.709,"endTime":267.939,"body":"The claim is the traditional methods"},{"startTime":262.709,"endTime":267.939,"body":"of doing your means ends analysis"},{"startTime":268.089,"endTime":269.999,"body":"imposes a heavy cognitive load."},{"startTime":270.149,"endTime":271.669,"body":"Well, I think that's on the money, right?"},{"startTime":271.699,"endTime":275.309,"body":"Obviously, cause you've got this"},{"startTime":271.699,"endTime":275.309,"body":"thing that is very nebulous at best."},{"startTime":275.459,"endTime":278.989,"body":"And then you're asking the teams"},{"startTime":275.459,"endTime":278.989,"body":"to break down the work and still"},{"startTime":278.989,"endTime":281.829,"body":"maintain integrity with that objective."},{"startTime":281.979,"endTime":284.429,"body":"And as they're breaking down the"},{"startTime":281.979,"endTime":284.429,"body":"work and they get further and"},{"startTime":284.459,"endTime":288.119,"body":"further away from that stated"},{"startTime":284.459,"endTime":288.119,"body":"objective, they may or may not."},{"startTime":288.199,"endTime":291.749,"body":"Be in line with what was originally"},{"startTime":288.199,"endTime":291.749,"body":"intended by that objective."},{"startTime":291.759,"endTime":292.049,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":292.209,"endTime":295.799,"body":"So the cognitive load is always going"},{"startTime":292.209,"endTime":295.799,"body":"to be there thinking, are we on are"},{"startTime":295.799,"endTime":297.439,"body":"we actually fulfilling that or not?"},{"startTime":297.589,"endTime":302.609,"body":"See the way that I read this was if"},{"startTime":297.589,"endTime":302.609,"body":"you're actually trying to code things"},{"startTime":302.919,"endTime":307.139,"body":"while doing discovery work at the"},{"startTime":302.919,"endTime":307.139,"body":"same time that will enact a heavy"},{"startTime":307.139,"endTime":309.199,"body":"burden you will move much slower."},{"startTime":309.349,"endTime":311.509,"body":"Because you're not clear about"},{"startTime":309.349,"endTime":311.509,"body":"what you're trying to build."},{"startTime":311.509,"endTime":314.769,"body":"I think about the world of the 2000"},{"startTime":311.509,"endTime":314.769,"body":"software development where all the"},{"startTime":314.769,"endTime":318.149,"body":"specs were delivered and developers"},{"startTime":314.769,"endTime":318.149,"body":"wanted to go sit in their little cubes"},{"startTime":318.449,"endTime":321.759,"body":"in the dark by themselves and not"},{"startTime":318.449,"endTime":321.759,"body":"be disturbed for weeks on weeks at"},{"startTime":321.759,"endTime":322.979,"body":"a time without delivering anything."},{"startTime":323.099,"endTime":325.979,"body":"if you are like the opposite of"},{"startTime":323.099,"endTime":325.979,"body":"that it's like you're building"},{"startTime":325.979,"endTime":329.689,"body":"something as the customer is using"},{"startTime":325.979,"endTime":329.689,"body":"it and changing and learning."},{"startTime":329.709,"endTime":331.979,"body":"I think that's the kind"},{"startTime":329.709,"endTime":331.979,"body":"of world that he's."},{"startTime":332.314,"endTime":333.744,"body":"Shining a light on Just in time."},{"startTime":333.744,"endTime":335.574,"body":"Discovery of what's needed."},{"startTime":335.574,"endTime":340.034,"body":"that is pretty heavy because you're"},{"startTime":335.574,"endTime":340.034,"body":"actually trying to deliver something and"},{"startTime":340.034,"endTime":344.834,"body":"yet learning more about what's next or"},{"startTime":340.034,"endTime":344.834,"body":"even what the whole thing is all about."},{"startTime":344.924,"endTime":349.554,"body":"It requires more skill and is more"},{"startTime":344.924,"endTime":349.554,"body":"difficult than the world where you"},{"startTime":349.554,"endTime":352.064,"body":"just handed everything and told to"},{"startTime":349.554,"endTime":352.064,"body":"go sit in the corner until it's done."},{"startTime":352.064,"endTime":352.184,"body":"Mhm."},{"startTime":352.334,"endTime":355.804,"body":"And it also means divided focus"},{"startTime":352.334,"endTime":355.804,"body":"because you're developing and"},{"startTime":355.804,"endTime":357.174,"body":"also trying to do discovery work."},{"startTime":357.284,"endTime":357.954,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":357.994,"endTime":358.824,"body":"Yeah, I think you're right."},{"startTime":358.904,"endTime":360.244,"body":"So That's his first claim."},{"startTime":360.284,"endTime":363.614,"body":"Is that when you're trying to do both of"},{"startTime":360.284,"endTime":363.614,"body":"these at the same time, when trying to"},{"startTime":363.634,"endTime":368.004,"body":"problem solve through means ends analysis,"},{"startTime":363.634,"endTime":368.004,"body":"it imposes a heavy cognitive load."},{"startTime":368.154,"endTime":372.184,"body":", an example of Problem solving through"},{"startTime":368.154,"endTime":372.184,"body":"means ends analysis you know, extracts"},{"startTime":372.234,"endTime":376.064,"body":"a heavy cognitive load would be in"},{"startTime":372.234,"endTime":376.064,"body":"during sprint planning, like the act of"},{"startTime":376.064,"endTime":380.024,"body":"sprint planning, where you're taking the"},{"startTime":376.064,"endTime":380.024,"body":"goal and you're breaking the goal into"},{"startTime":380.024,"endTime":383.684,"body":"stories, most likely the stories maybe"},{"startTime":380.024,"endTime":383.684,"body":"have already been But now you're actually"},{"startTime":383.894,"endTime":385.514,"body":"playing your implementation details."},{"startTime":385.524,"endTime":390.784,"body":"So think of it is like creating subtasks"},{"startTime":385.524,"endTime":390.784,"body":"from stories in any, any tool, but"},{"startTime":390.794,"endTime":392.764,"body":"my particular tool of choice is Jira."},{"startTime":393.394,"endTime":394.314,"body":"I haven't done that in a while."},{"startTime":394.464,"endTime":397.844,"body":"if you're creating subtasks, In"},{"startTime":394.464,"endTime":397.844,"body":"that tool, then this is a time where"},{"startTime":397.844,"endTime":401.124,"body":"you look through and you plan how"},{"startTime":397.844,"endTime":401.124,"body":"you're going to build each thing."},{"startTime":401.134,"endTime":404.424,"body":"Like you're actually opening up database"},{"startTime":401.134,"endTime":404.424,"body":"tables, you're opening up pieces of code"},{"startTime":404.444,"endTime":408.154,"body":"to look at functions that are there to"},{"startTime":404.444,"endTime":408.154,"body":"see if how they would have to change or"},{"startTime":408.174,"endTime":410.024,"body":"what particular pieces of code would work."},{"startTime":410.224,"endTime":413.254,"body":"Maybe you're coming up with different"},{"startTime":410.224,"endTime":413.254,"body":"deployment strategies and whatnot."},{"startTime":413.254,"endTime":415.414,"body":"You're actually planning"},{"startTime":413.254,"endTime":415.414,"body":"the low level work here."},{"startTime":415.564,"endTime":418.454,"body":"So this is like if it's done,"},{"startTime":415.564,"endTime":418.454,"body":"right, this is where you're"},{"startTime":418.674,"endTime":420.094,"body":"cutting through all the ambiguity."},{"startTime":420.244,"endTime":424.284,"body":"So that when the rest of the"},{"startTime":420.244,"endTime":424.284,"body":"sprint begins, it's generally a"},{"startTime":424.284,"endTime":425.784,"body":"lot easier to implement the work."},{"startTime":425.934,"endTime":426.644,"body":"I think you're right."},{"startTime":426.674,"endTime":429.434,"body":"So what was the"},{"startTime":426.674,"endTime":429.434,"body":"alternative to this before?"},{"startTime":429.494,"endTime":430.284,"body":"Oh, the alternative."},{"startTime":430.284,"endTime":431.814,"body":"I know exactly what the alternative is."},{"startTime":431.814,"endTime":435.174,"body":"The alternative is you don't do"},{"startTime":431.814,"endTime":435.174,"body":"sprint blending together as a team."},{"startTime":435.284,"endTime":439.154,"body":"I just, I, the architect from the ivory"},{"startTime":435.284,"endTime":439.154,"body":"tower, I just assign you the work."},{"startTime":439.304,"endTime":441.304,"body":"And then you have to figure"},{"startTime":439.304,"endTime":441.304,"body":"out the architecture."},{"startTime":441.514,"endTime":445.744,"body":"You have to figure out where all the"},{"startTime":441.514,"endTime":445.744,"body":"pieces of code are that even interact with"},{"startTime":445.744,"endTime":447.074,"body":"this thing you're being asked to change."},{"startTime":447.224,"endTime":449.484,"body":"And you have to figure out"},{"startTime":447.224,"endTime":449.484,"body":"how these are using it."},{"startTime":449.564,"endTime":451.204,"body":"And you have to figure out all this stuff."},{"startTime":451.274,"endTime":453.434,"body":"maybe nobody even writes"},{"startTime":451.274,"endTime":453.434,"body":"the story for you."},{"startTime":453.664,"endTime":455.624,"body":"Maybe you have to write the story itself."},{"startTime":455.774,"endTime":456.504,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":456.524,"endTime":459.454,"body":"And then you have to document it"},{"startTime":456.524,"endTime":459.454,"body":"down and maybe you got to do your own"},{"startTime":459.454,"endTime":462.484,"body":"documentation while doing your own"},{"startTime":459.454,"endTime":462.484,"body":"stunts maybe you have to do it all."},{"startTime":462.634,"endTime":466.174,"body":"You know, maybe you're in one of"},{"startTime":462.634,"endTime":466.174,"body":"these shops that say we see no value"},{"startTime":466.174,"endTime":469.894,"body":"in a scrum master and why can't"},{"startTime":466.174,"endTime":469.894,"body":"the product owner do all the B."},{"startTime":469.894,"endTime":470.064,"body":"A."},{"startTime":470.084,"endTime":472.214,"body":"tasks and why can't development do more?"},{"startTime":472.394,"endTime":473.444,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":473.494,"endTime":476.854,"body":"Yeah, these are the sorts of"},{"startTime":473.494,"endTime":476.854,"body":"organizations that basically hand you a P."},{"startTime":476.854,"endTime":476.984,"body":"R."},{"startTime":476.984,"endTime":477.214,"body":"D."},{"startTime":477.214,"endTime":479.194,"body":"and say all the analysis"},{"startTime":477.214,"endTime":479.194,"body":"has already been done."},{"startTime":479.254,"endTime":480.874,"body":"Yeah your tech lead took care of it all."},{"startTime":480.904,"endTime":481.394,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":481.614,"endTime":482.434,"body":"Just go code."},{"startTime":482.564,"endTime":483.359,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":483.639,"endTime":485.389,"body":"Don't come out until you"},{"startTime":483.639,"endTime":485.389,"body":"have something that works."},{"startTime":485.539,"endTime":487.189,"body":"So that's not a good"},{"startTime":485.539,"endTime":487.189,"body":"alternative, first of all."},{"startTime":487.309,"endTime":491.419,"body":"We just want to contrast that with"},{"startTime":487.309,"endTime":491.419,"body":"what this cognitive load topic is."},{"startTime":491.569,"endTime":493.589,"body":"Alright, let's look at number two here."},{"startTime":493.809,"endTime":495.649,"body":"So, cutting back over to the document."},{"startTime":495.799,"endTime":496.629,"body":"Conclusion number two."},{"startTime":496.809,"endTime":501.209,"body":"The mechanisms required for problem"},{"startTime":496.809,"endTime":501.209,"body":"solving and schema acquisition"},{"startTime":501.459,"endTime":503.609,"body":"may be substantially distinct."},{"startTime":503.879,"endTime":510.019,"body":"Schema acquisition in this context"},{"startTime":503.879,"endTime":510.019,"body":"is learning new methods of working or"},{"startTime":510.019,"endTime":514.059,"body":"new talents or new skills, new ways"},{"startTime":510.019,"endTime":514.059,"body":"to approach and deal with problems."},{"startTime":514.329,"endTime":516.789,"body":"This is a good point to stop in the"},{"startTime":514.329,"endTime":516.789,"body":"podcast to point out if you read the"},{"startTime":516.789,"endTime":520.489,"body":"paper, some of the examples in the"},{"startTime":516.789,"endTime":520.489,"body":"paper where he's inflicting cognitive,"},{"startTime":520.729,"endTime":525.309,"body":"cognitive load on, on his, on his Test"},{"startTime":520.729,"endTime":525.309,"body":"subjects who I think are like high"},{"startTime":525.309,"endTime":529.159,"body":"schoolers, basically like 15, 16 year"},{"startTime":525.309,"endTime":529.159,"body":"olds are taking math tests basically."},{"startTime":529.309,"endTime":532.459,"body":"During the math tests they not only"},{"startTime":529.309,"endTime":532.459,"body":"do I have to get the right answer,"},{"startTime":532.459,"endTime":536.859,"body":"but they have to identify and use"},{"startTime":532.459,"endTime":536.859,"body":"the proper formula or schema, right?"},{"startTime":536.869,"endTime":538.959,"body":"That's his academic term for it."},{"startTime":539.139,"endTime":541.429,"body":"They have to identify the correct"},{"startTime":539.139,"endTime":541.429,"body":"schema to use to solve the problem."},{"startTime":541.429,"endTime":543.649,"body":"then they have to actually"},{"startTime":541.429,"endTime":543.649,"body":"solve the problem and they"},{"startTime":543.649,"endTime":544.779,"body":"have to come to the correct."},{"startTime":545.974,"endTime":549.034,"body":"So if you read the paper, the paper is"},{"startTime":545.974,"endTime":549.034,"body":"actually interesting because he gives"},{"startTime":549.034,"endTime":553.484,"body":"like a mathematical breakdown of the"},{"startTime":549.034,"endTime":553.484,"body":"load that was applied and how difficult"},{"startTime":553.484,"endTime":556.124,"body":"it was and when they came to the right"},{"startTime":553.484,"endTime":556.124,"body":"answers and when they had the right"},{"startTime":556.124,"endTime":558.774,"body":"schema, but they came to the wrong"},{"startTime":556.124,"endTime":558.774,"body":"answers and all kinds of stuff like that."},{"startTime":558.974,"endTime":563.014,"body":"So in our day to day life, the"},{"startTime":558.974,"endTime":563.014,"body":"word schema might be replaced with"},{"startTime":563.164,"endTime":564.694,"body":"patterns learned by experience."},{"startTime":564.714,"endTime":565.224,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":565.234,"endTime":567.884,"body":"So an experienced"},{"startTime":565.234,"endTime":567.884,"body":"developer would recognize."},{"startTime":568.034,"endTime":571.374,"body":"Something they come across as"},{"startTime":568.034,"endTime":571.374,"body":"Oh, well, I've seen this before."},{"startTime":571.524,"endTime":572.634,"body":"Here's how it was solved."},{"startTime":572.664,"endTime":575.474,"body":"See if that could be applied"},{"startTime":572.664,"endTime":575.474,"body":"here that's what I think it is."},{"startTime":575.584,"endTime":580.004,"body":"a pattern also would be the steps you"},{"startTime":575.584,"endTime":580.004,"body":"go through to release things to prod."},{"startTime":580.154,"endTime":584.319,"body":"And a pattern also could be when a blow"},{"startTime":580.154,"endTime":584.319,"body":"up happens in production for example, all"},{"startTime":584.319,"endTime":588.789,"body":"of the devices start blue screening all at"},{"startTime":584.319,"endTime":588.789,"body":"once the steps that you take to go through"},{"startTime":588.829,"endTime":592.369,"body":"the troubleshooting, to bring things"},{"startTime":588.829,"endTime":592.369,"body":"back up,, the more times you've seen and"},{"startTime":592.369,"endTime":596.859,"body":"dealt with that, the better your schema"},{"startTime":592.369,"endTime":596.859,"body":"is for recognizing and resolving that."},{"startTime":597.009,"endTime":597.549,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":597.699,"endTime":602.139,"body":"And we're not even going to get into"},{"startTime":597.699,"endTime":602.139,"body":"the stress factor that comes in when"},{"startTime":602.139,"endTime":605.589,"body":"people are yelling and getting upset"},{"startTime":602.139,"endTime":605.589,"body":"that's not even included, in the study."},{"startTime":605.589,"endTime":606.799,"body":"He didn't say anything about that."},{"startTime":606.869,"endTime":608.209,"body":"No, this study is very objective."},{"startTime":608.219,"endTime":609.713,"body":"He doesn't talk about"},{"startTime":608.219,"endTime":609.713,"body":"those sorts of things."},{"startTime":609.713,"endTime":610.09,"body":"Very sanitized."},{"startTime":610.09,"endTime":610.278,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":610.278,"endTime":612.163,"body":"it doesn't include any of the"},{"startTime":610.278,"endTime":612.163,"body":"factors that anyone listening"},{"startTime":612.163,"endTime":614.24,"body":"to this podcast will deal with."},{"startTime":614.39,"endTime":618.71,"body":"In their day to day work with egos and"},{"startTime":614.39,"endTime":618.71,"body":"personalities and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":618.81,"endTime":619.27,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":619.3,"endTime":622.74,"body":"I mean, the work of this paper was really"},{"startTime":619.3,"endTime":622.74,"body":"centered around, high school students."},{"startTime":622.89,"endTime":625.51,"body":"So, they didn't really consider"},{"startTime":622.89,"endTime":625.51,"body":"all of these You know, there's"},{"startTime":625.51,"endTime":626.89,"body":"such a feely type of things."},{"startTime":626.98,"endTime":628.14,"body":"But they're real, right?"},{"startTime":628.18,"endTime":629.38,"body":"I mean, Oh, not in the eighties."},{"startTime":629.38,"endTime":631.63,"body":"They weren't real then too."},{"startTime":631.76,"endTime":633.38,"body":"I seem to recall they were real."},{"startTime":633.38,"endTime":635.33,"body":"It just wasn't, we weren't"},{"startTime":633.38,"endTime":635.33,"body":"allowed to talk about them."},{"startTime":635.38,"endTime":637.66,"body":"That's anyway, there's a few nuggets."},{"startTime":637.66,"endTime":639.5,"body":"I leave in the editing of the podcast."},{"startTime":639.5,"endTime":640.655,"body":"That's a great, great."},{"startTime":640.805,"endTime":641.275,"body":"Let's see."},{"startTime":641.335,"endTime":645.205,"body":"So the mechanism for required for problem"},{"startTime":641.335,"endTime":645.205,"body":"solving and schema acquisition, AKA"},{"startTime":645.215,"endTime":647.915,"body":"learning are substantially different."},{"startTime":648.135,"endTime":651.745,"body":"So  the skills that you use to"},{"startTime":648.135,"endTime":651.745,"body":"solve problems versus the skills"},{"startTime":651.755,"endTime":657.625,"body":"that you use to learn things or"},{"startTime":651.755,"endTime":657.625,"body":"acquire new patterns to recognize."},{"startTime":657.625,"endTime":660.465,"body":"So where, where else can we apply that?"},{"startTime":660.515,"endTime":665.545,"body":"The mental processes, developers"},{"startTime":660.515,"endTime":665.545,"body":"use to complete sprint tasks versus"},{"startTime":665.725,"endTime":671.105,"body":"the mental processes that they use"},{"startTime":665.725,"endTime":671.105,"body":"to engage their systems thinking"},{"startTime":671.165,"endTime":672.995,"body":"about architecture or about."},{"startTime":673.145,"endTime":675.525,"body":"Team structure or team topology, right?"},{"startTime":675.605,"endTime":677.215,"body":"Like how should we scale?"},{"startTime":677.315,"endTime":679.895,"body":"How, what's the best way for us"},{"startTime":677.315,"endTime":679.895,"body":"to talk, for teams to talk to each"},{"startTime":679.895,"endTime":683.085,"body":"other, to figure out the work between"},{"startTime":679.895,"endTime":683.085,"body":"the inter team, the inter team,"},{"startTime":683.086,"endTime":685.185,"body":"inter team, I don't, I don't know."},{"startTime":685.335,"endTime":686.665,"body":"Inter team or inter team."},{"startTime":686.695,"endTime":686.985,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":686.995,"endTime":687.795,"body":"We'll settle on that."},{"startTime":687.945,"endTime":689.295,"body":"Hit us up in the comments."},{"startTime":689.445,"endTime":690.535,"body":"that's a great example of this."},{"startTime":690.545,"endTime":693.835,"body":"the work that you do in sprint, like"},{"startTime":690.545,"endTime":693.835,"body":"going from work item to the next"},{"startTime":693.835,"endTime":697.555,"body":"work item to the next work item, that"},{"startTime":693.835,"endTime":697.555,"body":"skill completely different from that."},{"startTime":697.615,"endTime":698.695,"body":"I'm not making that claim."},{"startTime":698.845,"endTime":702.775,"body":"This paper is making the claim, but"},{"startTime":698.845,"endTime":702.775,"body":"I have to agree with the author here."},{"startTime":702.825,"endTime":705.895,"body":"I mean, if you're too busy just"},{"startTime":702.825,"endTime":705.895,"body":"doing the work of the sprint,"},{"startTime":706.045,"endTime":708.865,"body":"we've all seen this, where teams"},{"startTime":706.045,"endTime":708.865,"body":"say it's been a long two weeks."},{"startTime":709.015,"endTime":709.885,"body":"Too busy to improve."},{"startTime":709.955,"endTime":711.815,"body":"We're tired at the end of a long sprint."},{"startTime":711.845,"endTime":714.875,"body":"Can we just skip the retro or if"},{"startTime":711.845,"endTime":714.875,"body":"you say no, we have to have it."},{"startTime":715.125,"endTime":716.395,"body":"Can we have a 10 minute retro?"},{"startTime":716.445,"endTime":717.655,"body":"I've heard all of that before."},{"startTime":717.805,"endTime":718.455,"body":"Too busy."},{"startTime":718.795,"endTime":719.985,"body":"That's an excuse."},{"startTime":720.025,"endTime":722.115,"body":"We're too busy to have an hour long retro."},{"startTime":722.165,"endTime":723.265,"body":"We got to get back to work."},{"startTime":723.285,"endTime":725.095,"body":"We can cut that into a half an hour retro."},{"startTime":725.095,"endTime":726.105,"body":"Right, exactly."},{"startTime":726.105,"endTime":726.565,"body":"We're too busy."},{"startTime":726.715,"endTime":729.515,"body":"Exactly what we talk"},{"startTime":726.715,"endTime":729.515,"body":"about at the retro, right?"},{"startTime":729.665,"endTime":729.965,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":729.965,"endTime":732.815,"body":"So those skills are different because"},{"startTime":729.965,"endTime":732.815,"body":"you have to introspect and you"},{"startTime":732.815,"endTime":737.645,"body":"have to see how your processes were"},{"startTime":732.815,"endTime":737.645,"body":"suboptimal and where you can improve."},{"startTime":737.875,"endTime":741.845,"body":"Those skill sets are totally different"},{"startTime":737.875,"endTime":741.845,"body":"than sitting there, punching out"},{"startTime":741.845,"endTime":746.065,"body":"code or testing things or whatever"},{"startTime":741.845,"endTime":746.065,"body":"you could be doing so yeah, I"},{"startTime":746.075,"endTime":747.285,"body":"mean, I agree with the author."},{"startTime":747.435,"endTime":750.875,"body":"So another claim is that senior"},{"startTime":747.435,"endTime":750.875,"body":"developers are more effective."},{"startTime":751.025,"endTime":754.975,"body":"Not because they can complete tasks"},{"startTime":751.025,"endTime":754.975,"body":"faster or complete tasks on their"},{"startTime":754.975,"endTime":756.985,"body":"own without peering with anyone."},{"startTime":757.135,"endTime":761.975,"body":"They're more effective because they have"},{"startTime":757.135,"endTime":761.975,"body":"this deep understanding of the pattern"},{"startTime":761.975,"endTime":763.345,"body":"recognition that we were talking about."},{"startTime":763.685,"endTime":765.445,"body":"Oh I know I got to go"},{"startTime":763.685,"endTime":765.445,"body":"to production this way."},{"startTime":765.445,"endTime":767.375,"body":"I know that the check in"},{"startTime":765.445,"endTime":767.375,"body":"process worked like this."},{"startTime":767.385,"endTime":771.885,"body":"the better way for us to share between"},{"startTime":767.385,"endTime":771.885,"body":"teams is to get everyone in the room"},{"startTime":771.985,"endTime":775.045,"body":"or whatever to, the better way to"},{"startTime":771.985,"endTime":775.045,"body":"resolve issues with customers just"},{"startTime":775.045,"endTime":775.965,"body":"to get the customer on the phone."},{"startTime":776.285,"endTime":778.315,"body":"You know, you don't really need"},{"startTime":776.285,"endTime":778.315,"body":"to convince them of these things."},{"startTime":778.315,"endTime":779.705,"body":"they already know these things."},{"startTime":779.785,"endTime":782.115,"body":"They've learned it through"},{"startTime":779.785,"endTime":782.115,"body":"their experience, right?"},{"startTime":782.265,"endTime":784.665,"body":"So it can even be simple things,"},{"startTime":782.265,"endTime":784.665,"body":"but they're not so simple."},{"startTime":784.666,"endTime":787.635,"body":"If you don't do them, I guess"},{"startTime":784.666,"endTime":787.635,"body":"things like let's get ahead of it."},{"startTime":787.655,"endTime":788.895,"body":"We have a deployment coming."},{"startTime":789.045,"endTime":792.605,"body":"Let's go ahead and start getting"},{"startTime":789.045,"endTime":792.605,"body":"on the radar for Our legal, if"},{"startTime":792.605,"endTime":794.625,"body":"that's applicable, compliance teams."},{"startTime":794.865,"endTime":797.675,"body":"So developers may not necessarily"},{"startTime":794.865,"endTime":797.675,"body":"think of these things."},{"startTime":797.995,"endTime":801.115,"body":"Because their vision is down"},{"startTime":797.995,"endTime":801.115,"body":"to the actual problems, right?"},{"startTime":801.265,"endTime":804.635,"body":"How to fix this issue or how"},{"startTime":801.265,"endTime":804.635,"body":"to develop to a story, right?"},{"startTime":804.825,"endTime":808.195,"body":"so yeah, I mean, tech leads, people like"},{"startTime":804.825,"endTime":808.195,"body":"architects that have been around the"},{"startTime":808.195,"endTime":809.795,"body":"block a bit, they think ahead a bit."},{"startTime":809.945,"endTime":812.295,"body":"They'll say, let's create a story"},{"startTime":809.945,"endTime":812.295,"body":"to make sure that we can talk"},{"startTime":812.295,"endTime":815.775,"body":"to this other team now, instead"},{"startTime":812.295,"endTime":815.775,"body":"of doing it at the end, right?"},{"startTime":815.865,"endTime":818.035,"body":"when you gave the examples, those"},{"startTime":815.865,"endTime":818.035,"body":"are the two, I thought of two"},{"startTime":818.035,"endTime":821.215,"body":"examples immediately, which is,"},{"startTime":818.035,"endTime":821.215,"body":"Talking to another team to align"},{"startTime":821.215,"endTime":822.945,"body":"work, like in advance of something,"},{"startTime":822.995,"endTime":823.305,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":823.335,"endTime":829.785,"body":"And the other one I thought of was, let's"},{"startTime":823.335,"endTime":829.785,"body":"start contacting all of our customers now,"},{"startTime":829.855,"endTime":833.885,"body":"before the sprint review, to see who's"},{"startTime":829.855,"endTime":833.885,"body":"going to be available to make sure that"},{"startTime":833.885,"endTime":837.125,"body":"we have at least one, maybe a couple for"},{"startTime":833.885,"endTime":837.125,"body":"the work that we're about to get done."},{"startTime":837.435,"endTime":840.525,"body":"And then like the team being well"},{"startTime":837.435,"endTime":840.525,"body":"in advance of that, that's cognitive"},{"startTime":840.525,"endTime":842.225,"body":"load of, it's not development work."},{"startTime":842.375,"endTime":845.175,"body":"Some people might listen to this and be"},{"startTime":842.375,"endTime":845.175,"body":"like, Oh, it's totally development work."},{"startTime":845.375,"endTime":846.675,"body":"But if your claim."},{"startTime":846.825,"endTime":849.065,"body":"is it is different than development work."},{"startTime":849.075,"endTime":852.005,"body":"I agree it is different"},{"startTime":849.075,"endTime":852.005,"body":"than development work and it"},{"startTime":852.005,"endTime":853.295,"body":"requires a different skill set."},{"startTime":853.445,"endTime":856.125,"body":"And it's equally as important"},{"startTime":853.445,"endTime":856.125,"body":"as development work."},{"startTime":856.126,"endTime":858.555,"body":"So yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":858.825,"endTime":859.715,"body":"So yeah, that's true."},{"startTime":859.765,"endTime":863.746,"body":"Conclusion number two the mechanisms"},{"startTime":859.765,"endTime":863.746,"body":"for acquiring schemas is different"},{"startTime":863.746,"endTime":865.626,"body":"than the mechanism for problem solving."},{"startTime":865.776,"endTime":870.416,"body":"the developers completing stories"},{"startTime":865.776,"endTime":870.416,"body":"in a sprint is not the same"},{"startTime":870.476,"endTime":874.856,"body":"as developers improving their"},{"startTime":870.476,"endTime":874.856,"body":"individual expertise or a team."},{"startTime":875.006,"endTime":877.056,"body":"Some kind of team expertise skill."},{"startTime":877.156,"endTime":878.326,"body":"does the team have a skill?"},{"startTime":878.376,"endTime":879.296,"body":"Yeah, they do."},{"startTime":879.476,"endTime":884.146,"body":"I mean, collectively, I guess doing the"},{"startTime":879.476,"endTime":884.146,"body":"work takes precedence usually, right?"},{"startTime":884.296,"endTime":885.776,"body":"Sprint is a finite time box."},{"startTime":885.786,"endTime":886.856,"body":"They got to get stuff done."},{"startTime":887.006,"endTime":888.646,"body":"Meet your sprint goals, whatever else."},{"startTime":888.796,"endTime":891.486,"body":"So that's all they do"},{"startTime":888.796,"endTime":891.486,"body":"until the sprint ends."},{"startTime":891.816,"endTime":896.506,"body":"Where is there time for experimenting"},{"startTime":891.816,"endTime":896.506,"body":"and learning and innovating?"},{"startTime":896.556,"endTime":896.886,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":897.036,"endTime":898.646,"body":"I know some frameworks build that in."},{"startTime":898.796,"endTime":903.356,"body":"But I've yet to see that in practice"},{"startTime":898.796,"endTime":903.356,"body":"where it's actually used like that, like a"},{"startTime":903.366,"endTime":905.196,"body":"whole sprint for innovation and planning."},{"startTime":905.346,"endTime":909.633,"body":"It tends to be that sprint that tends"},{"startTime":905.346,"endTime":909.633,"body":"to get used for regular work, carry over"},{"startTime":909.633,"endTime":912.987,"body":"maybe a little planning for the next PI."},{"startTime":913.137,"endTime":914.427,"body":"But no innovation."},{"startTime":914.577,"endTime":918.557,"body":"I have seen not had the fortune to"},{"startTime":914.577,"endTime":918.557,"body":"work in these environments, but I have"},{"startTime":918.557,"endTime":923.527,"body":"seen some teams where what they do is"},{"startTime":918.557,"endTime":923.527,"body":"they just carve out the time and they"},{"startTime":923.527,"endTime":925.877,"body":"do this either on a regular schedule."},{"startTime":926.027,"endTime":927.537,"body":"Some companies are better"},{"startTime":926.027,"endTime":927.537,"body":"at this than others."},{"startTime":927.537,"endTime":930.097,"body":"I know Google and all these big"},{"startTime":927.537,"endTime":930.097,"body":"some of these big FAANG companies."},{"startTime":930.107,"endTime":933.457,"body":"They actually allow their teams"},{"startTime":930.107,"endTime":933.457,"body":"to do things like code camps or"},{"startTime":933.717,"endTime":934.727,"body":"those kinds of things, right?"},{"startTime":934.727,"endTime":935.787,"body":"Hackathons."},{"startTime":935.787,"endTime":936.257,"body":"Hackathons, yeah."},{"startTime":936.437,"endTime":938.067,"body":"So that's where the team learns a lot."},{"startTime":938.217,"endTime":941.137,"body":"They're not under pressure"},{"startTime":938.217,"endTime":941.137,"body":"to deliver a product as such."},{"startTime":941.287,"endTime":944.167,"body":"Although, if something useful came"},{"startTime":941.287,"endTime":944.167,"body":"out of it, maybe they'll get a"},{"startTime":944.167,"endTime":945.777,"body":"little reward or something, right?"},{"startTime":945.927,"endTime":947.227,"body":"But they learn a lot through that."},{"startTime":947.497,"endTime":948.657,"body":"Because again, it's different."},{"startTime":948.667,"endTime":950.867,"body":"They're kind of decoupling"},{"startTime":948.667,"endTime":950.867,"body":"from the regular sprint work."},{"startTime":951.017,"endTime":953.717,"body":"So if you're not doing that, you"},{"startTime":951.017,"endTime":953.717,"body":"definitely are suffering this"},{"startTime":953.747,"endTime":955.497,"body":"bullet as it's described here."},{"startTime":955.697,"endTime":957.467,"body":"I'm going to go back to the"},{"startTime":955.697,"endTime":957.467,"body":"document because number three"},{"startTime":957.467,"endTime":958.767,"body":"and number two are very related."},{"startTime":958.767,"endTime":962.687,"body":"So number two was mechanisms required for"},{"startTime":958.767,"endTime":962.687,"body":"problem solving and schema acquisition"},{"startTime":962.687,"endTime":967.227,"body":"may be substantially distinct as a"},{"startTime":962.687,"endTime":967.227,"body":"number three, as a consequence, the"},{"startTime":967.237,"endTime":971.517,"body":"cognitive effort required by conventional"},{"startTime":967.237,"endTime":971.517,"body":"problem solving may not assist."},{"startTime":971.667,"endTime":972.737,"body":"In schema acquisition."},{"startTime":972.887,"endTime":975.587,"body":"So the cognitive effort required"},{"startTime":972.887,"endTime":975.587,"body":"in conventional problem solving."},{"startTime":975.887,"endTime":980.427,"body":"This is what we were talking about"},{"startTime":975.887,"endTime":980.427,"body":"with the work done inside of the"},{"startTime":980.427,"endTime":985.577,"body":"normal sprint so that that work may"},{"startTime":980.427,"endTime":985.577,"body":"not assist in learning new patterns."},{"startTime":985.577,"endTime":990.117,"body":"This is the interesting thing about"},{"startTime":985.577,"endTime":990.117,"body":"this one is the claim here that"},{"startTime":990.117,"endTime":993.607,"body":"I feel I can make and be in line"},{"startTime":990.117,"endTime":993.607,"body":"with this paper's findings is."},{"startTime":993.947,"endTime":997.987,"body":"I could have a team working on features"},{"startTime":993.947,"endTime":997.987,"body":"like adding stories to the sprint,"},{"startTime":997.997,"endTime":1002.097,"body":"having the team bang through all of"},{"startTime":997.997,"endTime":1002.097,"body":"them and work for a year with that team."},{"startTime":1002.157,"endTime":1004.727,"body":"And the team has not"},{"startTime":1002.157,"endTime":1004.727,"body":"improved a single thing."},{"startTime":1004.877,"endTime":1008.417,"body":"With regard to learning new things,"},{"startTime":1004.877,"endTime":1008.417,"body":"basically learning how to tackle"},{"startTime":1008.667,"endTime":1010.247,"body":"different styles of problems."},{"startTime":1010.447,"endTime":1012.547,"body":"they've executed on all the"},{"startTime":1010.447,"endTime":1012.547,"body":"things I've asked them to do."},{"startTime":1012.547,"endTime":1016.597,"body":"But anything that comes up that is outside"},{"startTime":1012.547,"endTime":1016.597,"body":"of the wheelhouse of exactly what I've"},{"startTime":1016.597,"endTime":1018.187,"body":"given them, they've learned no new skills."},{"startTime":1018.477,"endTime":1021.857,"body":"Unfortunately, the way we're working"},{"startTime":1018.477,"endTime":1021.857,"body":"today exacerbates the problem."},{"startTime":1022.187,"endTime":1026.747,"body":"So what I mean by that is oftentimes"},{"startTime":1022.187,"endTime":1026.747,"body":"development teams are dispersed."},{"startTime":1027.047,"endTime":1027.967,"body":"They're offshored."},{"startTime":1028.307,"endTime":1031.047,"body":"And These people are asked"},{"startTime":1028.307,"endTime":1031.047,"body":"to do the work of the sprint."},{"startTime":1031.197,"endTime":1033.317,"body":"They're not asked to"},{"startTime":1031.197,"endTime":1033.317,"body":"go learn something new."},{"startTime":1033.467,"endTime":1034.767,"body":"We don't pay you for that, right?"},{"startTime":1034.797,"endTime":1036.587,"body":"So go develop something, and that's it."},{"startTime":1036.767,"endTime":1038.247,"body":"When you're done, go"},{"startTime":1036.767,"endTime":1038.247,"body":"develop something else."},{"startTime":1038.397,"endTime":1041.687,"body":"And unfortunately, that kind"},{"startTime":1038.397,"endTime":1041.687,"body":"of feeds on itself over time."},{"startTime":1041.837,"endTime":1045.567,"body":"they're looking for experienced people"},{"startTime":1041.837,"endTime":1045.567,"body":"that have these patterns, but at"},{"startTime":1045.567,"endTime":1049.457,"body":"the same time, they're not providing"},{"startTime":1045.567,"endTime":1049.457,"body":"opportunities to gain these patterns."},{"startTime":1049.467,"endTime":1049.687,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1049.837,"endTime":1051.357,"body":"Which is quite, quite unique."},{"startTime":1051.507,"endTime":1052.237,"body":"Very weird."},{"startTime":1052.387,"endTime":1055.037,"body":"I mean, you say very weird"},{"startTime":1052.387,"endTime":1055.037,"body":"welcome to Arguing Agile."},{"startTime":1055.047,"endTime":1055.797,"body":"Thanks for coming."},{"startTime":1055.807,"endTime":1056.727,"body":"Like and subscribe."},{"startTime":1056.757,"endTime":1060.477,"body":"But I also say this is part of the,"},{"startTime":1056.757,"endTime":1060.477,"body":"the bipolar corporate America over"},{"startTime":1060.477,"endTime":1064.197,"body":"here why train someone when we can just"},{"startTime":1060.477,"endTime":1064.197,"body":"you know, cut you and replace you with"},{"startTime":1064.247,"endTime":1065.397,"body":"it's not half of your salary."},{"startTime":1065.627,"endTime":1067.777,"body":"You're not getting two people for half"},{"startTime":1065.627,"endTime":1067.777,"body":"you're getting two people for half."},{"startTime":1067.777,"endTime":1068.107,"body":"1."},{"startTime":1068.107,"endTime":1070.437,"body":"25 times what you're"},{"startTime":1068.107,"endTime":1070.437,"body":"paying the other person."},{"startTime":1070.437,"endTime":1073.607,"body":"They're actually, they pay more when they"},{"startTime":1070.437,"endTime":1073.607,"body":"replace you, even when they offshore you."},{"startTime":1073.707,"endTime":1074.137,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1074.287,"endTime":1078.997,"body":"But anyway but yeah, the corporate America"},{"startTime":1074.287,"endTime":1078.997,"body":"is just refusal to train people and to"},{"startTime":1079.007,"endTime":1084.027,"body":"make space in the, either in the velocity"},{"startTime":1079.007,"endTime":1084.027,"body":"or in the budgets or in whatever, 7 months"},{"startTime":1084.027,"endTime":1085.807,"body":"will be 20 years in software development."},{"startTime":1085.957,"endTime":1088.487,"body":"And , I feel like companies"},{"startTime":1085.957,"endTime":1088.487,"body":"haven't learned a single thing."},{"startTime":1088.517,"endTime":1090.007,"body":"Like they're still doing the"},{"startTime":1088.517,"endTime":1090.007,"body":"same thing they were doing at"},{"startTime":1090.007,"endTime":1090.867,"body":"the beginning of my career."},{"startTime":1090.867,"endTime":1093.767,"body":"they're trying to get experienced"},{"startTime":1090.867,"endTime":1093.767,"body":"people at beginner rates."},{"startTime":1093.817,"endTime":1097.417,"body":"And Work them for two years until"},{"startTime":1093.817,"endTime":1097.417,"body":"all their ideas are terrible."},{"startTime":1097.417,"endTime":1099.897,"body":"And everyone outside of the"},{"startTime":1097.417,"endTime":1099.897,"body":"organization's ideas are great."},{"startTime":1099.957,"endTime":1101.457,"body":"And yeah, I don't get this one."},{"startTime":1101.547,"endTime":1102.197,"body":"It's crazy."},{"startTime":1102.257,"endTime":1102.977,"body":"That one's crazy."},{"startTime":1102.977,"endTime":1103.927,"body":"That's a whole podcast."},{"startTime":1103.927,"endTime":1105.467,"body":"And then some, it really is."},{"startTime":1105.517,"endTime":1109.387,"body":"so number three, cognitive effort"},{"startTime":1105.517,"endTime":1109.387,"body":"required by conventional problem solving"},{"startTime":1109.497,"endTime":1111.787,"body":"doesn't assist in scheme acquisition."},{"startTime":1112.077,"endTime":1116.107,"body":"So your normal day to day work"},{"startTime":1112.077,"endTime":1116.107,"body":"doesn't help you learn new things."},{"startTime":1116.117,"endTime":1119.607,"body":"Even if you're setting sprint goals,"},{"startTime":1116.117,"endTime":1119.607,"body":"even if you have a good product function"},{"startTime":1119.847,"endTime":1123.417,"body":"and you are setting good sprint goals,"},{"startTime":1119.847,"endTime":1123.417,"body":"those sprint goals may never, you"},{"startTime":1123.417,"endTime":1127.777,"body":"may never learn anything from those,"},{"startTime":1123.417,"endTime":1127.777,"body":"you may never acquire any new skill."},{"startTime":1127.797,"endTime":1129.947,"body":"Basically, that's what I'm"},{"startTime":1127.797,"endTime":1129.947,"body":"saying from those sprinkles."},{"startTime":1130.207,"endTime":1132.907,"body":"I mean, like think about shops"},{"startTime":1130.207,"endTime":1132.907,"body":"where the sprint goal is like,"},{"startTime":1132.907,"endTime":1134.337,"body":"do all finish all the work items."},{"startTime":1134.487,"endTime":1135.017,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1135.057,"endTime":1137.567,"body":"Like that kind of stuff, everything"},{"startTime":1135.057,"endTime":1137.567,"body":"in the sprint, everybody's"},{"startTime":1137.567,"endTime":1138.647,"body":"been in a shop like that."},{"startTime":1138.697,"endTime":1141.787,"body":"Where this the, the, their product"},{"startTime":1138.697,"endTime":1141.787,"body":"function doesn't really function."},{"startTime":1141.787,"endTime":1144.757,"body":"it's like a tech lead stepping"},{"startTime":1141.787,"endTime":1144.757,"body":"in and playing the product role"},{"startTime":1144.757,"endTime":1148.207,"body":"or as a CTO basically that owns"},{"startTime":1144.757,"endTime":1148.207,"body":"the product owners basically."},{"startTime":1148.207,"endTime":1151.407,"body":"So they're incented on how"},{"startTime":1148.207,"endTime":1151.407,"body":"many widgets they punch out."},{"startTime":1151.407,"endTime":1153.667,"body":"so maximum more widgets, the OKR."},{"startTime":1153.807,"endTime":1159.247,"body":"Are more 10 percent more widgets this year"},{"startTime":1153.807,"endTime":1159.247,"body":"at this time than last year at this time."},{"startTime":1159.397,"endTime":1161.727,"body":"Like that I've seen real software"},{"startTime":1159.397,"endTime":1161.727,"body":"development shops like that."},{"startTime":1161.877,"endTime":1162.457,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1162.637,"endTime":1163.977,"body":"So I absolutely right."},{"startTime":1164.017,"endTime":1167.707,"body":"But those developers who are being"},{"startTime":1164.017,"endTime":1167.707,"body":"judged by the number of widgets they"},{"startTime":1167.707,"endTime":1169.547,"body":"deliver, they've learned no new skills."},{"startTime":1169.587,"endTime":1171.067,"body":"They've not improved their process."},{"startTime":1171.262,"endTime":1172.842,"body":"You know, they don't have"},{"startTime":1171.262,"endTime":1172.842,"body":"a better understanding of"},{"startTime":1172.892,"endTime":1173.912,"body":"customers or anything by that."},{"startTime":1173.932,"endTime":1175.842,"body":"they're just punching out widgets faster."},{"startTime":1175.992,"endTime":1177.102,"body":"Not even necessarily better."},{"startTime":1177.152,"endTime":1181.182,"body":"And because they've not been given the"},{"startTime":1177.152,"endTime":1181.182,"body":"space to figure out a better way to work."},{"startTime":1181.192,"endTime":1182.142,"body":"Absolutely agree."},{"startTime":1182.292,"endTime":1184.732,"body":"So, this item is very similar"},{"startTime":1182.292,"endTime":1184.732,"body":"to the previous, so I feel we're"},{"startTime":1184.732,"endTime":1185.762,"body":"going to spend less time on it."},{"startTime":1185.812,"endTime":1187.902,"body":"Alright, so moving on to"},{"startTime":1185.812,"endTime":1187.902,"body":"conclusion number four."},{"startTime":1188.072,"endTime":1191.842,"body":"Since schema acquisition is possibly"},{"startTime":1188.072,"endTime":1191.842,"body":"the most important component of"},{"startTime":1191.872,"endTime":1195.832,"body":"problem solving expertise, again,"},{"startTime":1191.872,"endTime":1195.832,"body":"schema acquisition is learning new"},{"startTime":1195.832,"endTime":1199.582,"body":"things, new patterns, new skills, new"},{"startTime":1195.832,"endTime":1199.582,"body":"whatever is possibly the most important"},{"startTime":1199.582,"endTime":1202.052,"body":"component of problem solving expertise."},{"startTime":1202.202,"endTime":1205.912,"body":"The development of expertise"},{"startTime":1202.202,"endTime":1205.912,"body":"may be retarded by heavy"},{"startTime":1205.932,"endTime":1207.972,"body":"emphasis on problem solving."},{"startTime":1208.122,"endTime":1213.372,"body":"So the development of this expertise"},{"startTime":1208.122,"endTime":1213.372,"body":"may honestly may be paralyzed completely"},{"startTime":1213.592,"endTime":1216.902,"body":"by heavy emphasis on problem solving,"},{"startTime":1213.592,"endTime":1216.902,"body":"a heavy emphasis on problem solving,"},{"startTime":1217.202,"endTime":1221.642,"body":"I interpret as a heavy emphasis on"},{"startTime":1217.202,"endTime":1221.642,"body":"knocking out stories and sprint goals"},{"startTime":1221.642,"endTime":1225.412,"body":"and going from focus incessantly"},{"startTime":1221.642,"endTime":1225.412,"body":"on the work of the sprint, right?"},{"startTime":1225.412,"endTime":1227.672,"body":"At the expense of everything else."},{"startTime":1227.682,"endTime":1228.512,"body":"So where is there?"},{"startTime":1228.662,"endTime":1232.602,"body":"Any slack to build up those"},{"startTime":1228.662,"endTime":1232.602,"body":"patterns and learn those."},{"startTime":1232.892,"endTime":1236.832,"body":"And I've said this on a previous"},{"startTime":1232.892,"endTime":1236.832,"body":"podcast where I, this is where in my"},{"startTime":1236.842,"endTime":1241.212,"body":"ALM again, it could be whatever ALM,"},{"startTime":1236.842,"endTime":1241.212,"body":"it could be a good ALM and it could be"},{"startTime":1241.212,"endTime":1244.792,"body":"um, but in my ALM,  I use components."},{"startTime":1244.942,"endTime":1247.062,"body":"So every work item has a component."},{"startTime":1247.082,"endTime":1249.812,"body":"They're kind of like, I guess you"},{"startTime":1247.082,"endTime":1249.812,"body":"can use tags, whatever the Microsoft"},{"startTime":1249.812,"endTime":1252.482,"body":"Azure DevOps has a field for this"},{"startTime":1249.812,"endTime":1252.482,"body":"and you can use tags there too."},{"startTime":1252.822,"endTime":1257.122,"body":"But basically I will designate a"},{"startTime":1252.822,"endTime":1257.122,"body":"story to say this story is a feature"},{"startTime":1257.282,"endTime":1260.152,"body":"meaning feature development, meaning,"},{"startTime":1257.282,"endTime":1260.152,"body":"capitalized piece of software"},{"startTime":1260.152,"endTime":1264.242,"body":"development that'll be, new and meet"},{"startTime":1260.152,"endTime":1264.242,"body":"some criteria which is a problem solving."},{"startTime":1264.252,"endTime":1266.852,"body":"Basically it's a, it's a problem"},{"startTime":1264.252,"endTime":1266.852,"body":"to be solved, the feature and also"},{"startTime":1266.852,"endTime":1269.222,"body":"I have a category of capability."},{"startTime":1269.452,"endTime":1271.347,"body":"Basically the team needs"},{"startTime":1269.452,"endTime":1271.347,"body":"to learn a new skill."},{"startTime":1271.497,"endTime":1273.037,"body":"So that's what this work item is."},{"startTime":1273.087,"endTime":1276.057,"body":"This work item is a team learning how"},{"startTime":1273.087,"endTime":1276.057,"body":"to do something else or exploring a new"},{"startTime":1276.057,"endTime":1280.867,"body":"technology or figuring out a Some kind"},{"startTime":1276.057,"endTime":1280.867,"body":"of not not figuring out a problem meaning"},{"startTime":1280.867,"endTime":1284.287,"body":"like solving a bug because there's a"},{"startTime":1280.867,"endTime":1284.287,"body":"different category for that Sure, because"},{"startTime":1284.287,"endTime":1285.747,"body":"that kind of stuff goes on the OPEX."},{"startTime":1285.747,"endTime":1292.687,"body":"It has to be categorized differently, but"},{"startTime":1285.747,"endTime":1292.687,"body":"I Strongly believe in backlog and spending"},{"startTime":1292.837,"endTime":1296.837,"body":"Part of my velocity or forecast or however"},{"startTime":1292.837,"endTime":1296.837,"body":"you plan spending, spending part of"},{"startTime":1296.837,"endTime":1298.917,"body":"that of those planning dollars, right?"},{"startTime":1298.917,"endTime":1300.057,"body":"We'll call them planning dollars, right?"},{"startTime":1300.327,"endTime":1305.117,"body":"On this, because it, it lets"},{"startTime":1300.327,"endTime":1305.117,"body":"us bake time for exploration,"},{"startTime":1305.267,"endTime":1307.487,"body":"time for alternative approaches."},{"startTime":1307.637,"endTime":1309.987,"body":"It lets us bake that into"},{"startTime":1307.637,"endTime":1309.987,"body":"the normal planning process."},{"startTime":1310.017,"endTime":1312.267,"body":"And if it's just baked in the"},{"startTime":1310.017,"endTime":1312.267,"body":"normal planning process, It's"},{"startTime":1312.267,"endTime":1315.357,"body":"a lot easier to manage because"},{"startTime":1312.267,"endTime":1315.357,"body":"all the planning is flattened."},{"startTime":1315.507,"endTime":1319.037,"body":"So you'll say, sprint velocity is 20"},{"startTime":1315.507,"endTime":1319.037,"body":"this sprint eight points is on, on"},{"startTime":1319.037,"endTime":1322.747,"body":"these features over here maybe two"},{"startTime":1319.037,"endTime":1322.747,"body":"or three, whatever stories that equal"},{"startTime":1322.747,"endTime":1326.187,"body":"eight, whatever, 10, I don't know,"},{"startTime":1322.747,"endTime":1326.187,"body":"whatever You know, so I got eight points"},{"startTime":1326.187,"endTime":1327.357,"body":"over here for feature development."},{"startTime":1327.707,"endTime":1329.797,"body":"I got two points over"},{"startTime":1327.707,"endTime":1329.797,"body":"here for this other thing."},{"startTime":1329.797,"endTime":1332.127,"body":"And the rest of the sprint"},{"startTime":1329.797,"endTime":1332.127,"body":"is, whatever bug fixes."},{"startTime":1332.217,"endTime":1333.067,"body":"Maybe we have problems."},{"startTime":1333.077,"endTime":1333.297,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1333.347,"endTime":1335.617,"body":"I think the field, there are a"},{"startTime":1333.347,"endTime":1335.617,"body":"couple of fields in Azure DevOps."},{"startTime":1335.617,"endTime":1337.987,"body":"There's a category and"},{"startTime":1335.617,"endTime":1337.987,"body":"then there's a value area."},{"startTime":1338.137,"endTime":1340.367,"body":"So you could use those,"},{"startTime":1338.137,"endTime":1340.367,"body":"but definitely agree."},{"startTime":1340.427,"endTime":1343.407,"body":"a lot of times I've seen teams"},{"startTime":1340.427,"endTime":1343.407,"body":"not even use them properly."},{"startTime":1343.557,"endTime":1344.687,"body":"just default to whatever."},{"startTime":1344.697,"endTime":1347.427,"body":"So that's just a bad"},{"startTime":1344.697,"endTime":1347.427,"body":"use of the tool itself."},{"startTime":1347.577,"endTime":1351.147,"body":"But if you're just focused on the work of"},{"startTime":1347.577,"endTime":1351.147,"body":"the sprint and that's going to consume all"},{"startTime":1351.147,"endTime":1356.077,"body":"your time, all your cognitive attention"},{"startTime":1351.147,"endTime":1356.077,"body":"or load, and you've got no space to learn,"},{"startTime":1356.247,"endTime":1358.537,"body":"you've got no space to discuss things."},{"startTime":1358.737,"endTime":1363.547,"body":"So I lump into this lack of avenues to"},{"startTime":1358.737,"endTime":1363.547,"body":"learn even like lunch and learns or."},{"startTime":1363.697,"endTime":1365.387,"body":"Communities of practice, right?"},{"startTime":1365.457,"endTime":1366.267,"body":"Who has time for that?"},{"startTime":1366.307,"endTime":1367.287,"body":"Just go code, right?"},{"startTime":1367.507,"endTime":1368.047,"body":"Come on, right?"},{"startTime":1368.067,"endTime":1372.317,"body":"One of the things I like doing is having"},{"startTime":1368.067,"endTime":1372.317,"body":"a weekly call for half an hour and"},{"startTime":1372.317,"endTime":1374.667,"body":"focused around different areas of work."},{"startTime":1374.667,"endTime":1378.487,"body":"So I might have a product session"},{"startTime":1374.667,"endTime":1378.487,"body":"for product managers, product owners."},{"startTime":1378.487,"endTime":1380.307,"body":"I had that regularly every week."},{"startTime":1380.457,"endTime":1384.517,"body":"And the agenda is usually"},{"startTime":1380.457,"endTime":1384.517,"body":"something topical that the teams"},{"startTime":1384.517,"endTime":1385.687,"body":"are struggling with, right?"},{"startTime":1385.837,"endTime":1389.447,"body":"And then there's also, if there's no"},{"startTime":1385.837,"endTime":1389.447,"body":"agenda, then there's just open discussion"},{"startTime":1389.487,"endTime":1391.567,"body":"where people can brainstorm ideas."},{"startTime":1391.717,"endTime":1393.407,"body":"And some good things came out of that."},{"startTime":1393.457,"endTime":1396.417,"body":"People brainstorming ideas, Oh, I thought"},{"startTime":1393.457,"endTime":1396.417,"body":"I was the only one thinking about that."},{"startTime":1396.417,"endTime":1399.317,"body":"I didn't want to say it loud, but"},{"startTime":1396.417,"endTime":1399.317,"body":"now that you mention it, perfect."},{"startTime":1399.467,"endTime":1401.877,"body":"I mean, half hour a week, you"},{"startTime":1399.467,"endTime":1401.877,"body":"should be able to do that."},{"startTime":1402.027,"endTime":1404.337,"body":"Same thing with Scrum"},{"startTime":1402.027,"endTime":1404.337,"body":"Masters around process."},{"startTime":1404.387,"endTime":1405.787,"body":"You know, things like DevOps."},{"startTime":1405.787,"endTime":1408.917,"body":"I had another session for DevOps, where"},{"startTime":1405.787,"endTime":1408.917,"body":"they can come in and talk about how to"},{"startTime":1408.917,"endTime":1411.157,"body":"improve the practice of delivering, right?"},{"startTime":1411.307,"endTime":1414.072,"body":"So, if you're not doing these"},{"startTime":1411.307,"endTime":1414.072,"body":"things, Things are actively investing"},{"startTime":1414.072,"endTime":1416.152,"body":"time and effort in our learning."},{"startTime":1416.192,"endTime":1416.572,"body":". Yeah."},{"startTime":1416.732,"endTime":1419.542,"body":"I mean, that's, that's, that's"},{"startTime":1416.732,"endTime":1419.542,"body":"the implication here is that"},{"startTime":1419.552,"endTime":1423.442,"body":"the grind of the day to day,"},{"startTime":1419.552,"endTime":1423.442,"body":"that skill is a different skill."},{"startTime":1423.482,"endTime":1425.822,"body":"Or maybe I, maybe that's the"},{"startTime":1423.482,"endTime":1425.822,"body":"reason that he uses this."},{"startTime":1425.977,"endTime":1429.627,"body":"Academic sanitized language of"},{"startTime":1425.977,"endTime":1429.627,"body":"schema acquisition you're, you're"},{"startTime":1429.637,"endTime":1432.387,"body":"acquiring a new schema because"},{"startTime":1429.637,"endTime":1432.387,"body":"it's not necessarily just skill."},{"startTime":1432.537,"endTime":1435.027,"body":"I mean, it's a, it's a little bit"},{"startTime":1432.537,"endTime":1435.027,"body":"skill that you have to go get."},{"startTime":1435.047,"endTime":1437.127,"body":"It's a little bit pattern"},{"startTime":1435.047,"endTime":1437.127,"body":"recognition that you have to go get."},{"startTime":1437.137,"endTime":1440.557,"body":"It's a little bit of what we would"},{"startTime":1437.137,"endTime":1440.557,"body":"call experience that very nebulous."},{"startTime":1440.707,"endTime":1444.177,"body":"It kind of is meaningless to be"},{"startTime":1440.707,"endTime":1444.177,"body":"honest, it's hard to explain."},{"startTime":1444.387,"endTime":1446.267,"body":"He just labels it schema acquisition."},{"startTime":1446.547,"endTime":1449.167,"body":"I wonder what Taylor would have called"},{"startTime":1446.547,"endTime":1449.167,"body":"that because there's nobody's business."},{"startTime":1449.477,"endTime":1452.587,"body":"I mean, management knows everything"},{"startTime":1449.477,"endTime":1452.587,"body":"and they'll just tell you what to do."},{"startTime":1452.737,"endTime":1454.237,"body":"All you do is do right."},{"startTime":1454.267,"endTime":1455.327,"body":"Let's just do the work."},{"startTime":1455.477,"endTime":1457.947,"body":"I don't know what, I don't know"},{"startTime":1455.477,"endTime":1457.947,"body":"what Taylor would have called it."},{"startTime":1457.967,"endTime":1459.577,"body":"I think you would have called it a."},{"startTime":1459.727,"endTime":1460.357,"body":"Nonsense."},{"startTime":1460.357,"endTime":1465.207,"body":"I mean, Taylor would have been so far"},{"startTime":1460.357,"endTime":1465.207,"body":"in the past he would have looked like"},{"startTime":1465.207,"endTime":1466.777,"body":"a caveman compared to this research."},{"startTime":1466.807,"endTime":1467.237,"body":"Well, sure."},{"startTime":1467.257,"endTime":1469.197,"body":"It would have been an"},{"startTime":1467.257,"endTime":1469.197,"body":"analysis of his own work."},{"startTime":1469.307,"endTime":1472.167,"body":"You know, of how he was"},{"startTime":1469.307,"endTime":1472.167,"body":"solving the problems."},{"startTime":1472.267,"endTime":1475.117,"body":"He wouldn't necessarily see that as"},{"startTime":1472.267,"endTime":1475.117,"body":"negative, though, because for him"},{"startTime":1475.117,"endTime":1477.947,"body":"it wouldn't be cognitive load it"},{"startTime":1475.117,"endTime":1477.947,"body":"would just be, this is what I do."},{"startTime":1477.997,"endTime":1483.117,"body":"If you invoke the, the old first"},{"startTime":1477.997,"endTime":1483.117,"body":"principles you know, rule where"},{"startTime":1483.117,"endTime":1485.907,"body":"you say, well, let's break the"},{"startTime":1483.117,"endTime":1485.907,"body":"test down to its basic stuff."},{"startTime":1486.057,"endTime":1490.717,"body":"I think what Taylor would have done"},{"startTime":1486.057,"endTime":1490.717,"body":"is say, why do you have one person"},{"startTime":1490.717,"endTime":1492.647,"body":"doing so many of these separate jobs?"},{"startTime":1492.797,"endTime":1493.887,"body":"They're all separate jobs."},{"startTime":1494.037,"endTime":1496.927,"body":"Either you have to serialize"},{"startTime":1494.037,"endTime":1496.927,"body":"the jobs and do them all."},{"startTime":1497.272,"endTime":1498.382,"body":"S serialized."},{"startTime":1498.382,"endTime":1498.712,"body":"Sure, yeah."},{"startTime":1498.762,"endTime":1501.642,"body":"Or you have to do all the jobs in parallel"},{"startTime":1498.762,"endTime":1501.642,"body":"and then give them the separate people."},{"startTime":1501.902,"endTime":1504.302,"body":"So I think, I think from"},{"startTime":1501.902,"endTime":1504.302,"body":"Taylor's perspective, I think it"},{"startTime":1504.302,"endTime":1505.592,"body":"actually would be very simple."},{"startTime":1505.682,"endTime":1506.342,"body":"He would say."},{"startTime":1506.492,"endTime":1510.532,"body":"Hey,  don't have 87 jobs for one"},{"startTime":1506.492,"endTime":1510.532,"body":"person, have one job for 87 people."},{"startTime":1510.532,"endTime":1513.282,"body":"And then you can write down the checklist"},{"startTime":1510.532,"endTime":1513.282,"body":"and have your disciplinary walk around"},{"startTime":1513.282,"endTime":1514.512,"body":"and smack people with clipboards."},{"startTime":1514.662,"endTime":1518.422,"body":"But you know, he would look at it"},{"startTime":1514.662,"endTime":1518.422,"body":"very simplistically, which again,"},{"startTime":1518.422,"endTime":1520.782,"body":"not knocking him he was in that era."},{"startTime":1520.932,"endTime":1521.472,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1521.502,"endTime":1521.802,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1521.862,"endTime":1524.812,"body":"I mean, but the modern eighties"},{"startTime":1521.862,"endTime":1524.812,"body":"manager, , who's trying to squeeze"},{"startTime":1524.817,"endTime":1528.302,"body":"maximum profits out of people and not,"},{"startTime":1524.817,"endTime":1528.302,"body":"and you know that, which is actually"},{"startTime":1528.307,"endTime":1529.472,"body":"the modern managers, I was gonna say."},{"startTime":1529.477,"endTime":1530.042,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1530.042,"endTime":1531.032,"body":"Hasn't changed since the eighties."},{"startTime":1531.192,"endTime":1532.062,"body":"They're gonna they're gonna."},{"startTime":1532.357,"endTime":1536.327,"body":"Load people down to the to the to the"},{"startTime":1532.357,"endTime":1536.327,"body":"max until they can't breathe anymore."},{"startTime":1536.327,"endTime":1536.907,"body":"Basically."},{"startTime":1536.967,"endTime":1537.307,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1537.357,"endTime":1537.587,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1537.787,"endTime":1542.517,"body":"This also talks to The old waterfall way"},{"startTime":1537.787,"endTime":1542.517,"body":"of working where you just load up people"},{"startTime":1542.517,"endTime":1546.767,"body":"to 100 percent utilization You know,"},{"startTime":1542.517,"endTime":1546.767,"body":"so they have no room to breathe, right?"},{"startTime":1546.767,"endTime":1547.557,"body":"Yeah utilization."},{"startTime":1547.557,"endTime":1552.367,"body":"utilization is a good point because this"},{"startTime":1547.557,"endTime":1552.367,"body":"If you really take this to heart, his"},{"startTime":1552.367,"endTime":1558.007,"body":"conclusion section the indication here is"},{"startTime":1552.367,"endTime":1558.007,"body":"you need some sort of overhead percentage."},{"startTime":1558.307,"endTime":1561.797,"body":"Businesses do this with financial"},{"startTime":1558.307,"endTime":1561.797,"body":"metrics for their people."},{"startTime":1561.807,"endTime":1565.387,"body":"They, they have a overhead when they"},{"startTime":1561.807,"endTime":1565.387,"body":"even when they bring you on and onboard"},{"startTime":1565.387,"endTime":1568.197,"body":"you, they pay you the salary they"},{"startTime":1565.387,"endTime":1568.197,"body":"pay you, but then there's an overhead"},{"startTime":1568.227,"endTime":1571.097,"body":"costs what your benefits and what"},{"startTime":1568.227,"endTime":1571.097,"body":"everything else costs to the company."},{"startTime":1571.397,"endTime":1575.107,"body":"in product management, for example, when"},{"startTime":1571.397,"endTime":1575.107,"body":"you have resources, certain people are"},{"startTime":1575.107,"endTime":1577.527,"body":"overhead and anyway, it's a normal thing."},{"startTime":1577.527,"endTime":1581.457,"body":"And so it's surprising to me that there's"},{"startTime":1577.527,"endTime":1581.457,"body":"not already something to figure this out."},{"startTime":1581.587,"endTime":1585.817,"body":"in order to have this schema acquisition,"},{"startTime":1581.587,"endTime":1585.817,"body":"there should just be an overhead."},{"startTime":1585.967,"endTime":1587.997,"body":"And then we can negotiate"},{"startTime":1585.967,"endTime":1587.997,"body":"what that overhead is."},{"startTime":1588.007,"endTime":1589.967,"body":"Sometimes it's slimmer."},{"startTime":1589.987,"endTime":1591.797,"body":"Sometimes it's a little more or whatever."},{"startTime":1591.947,"endTime":1595.857,"body":"But generally speaking, there is an"},{"startTime":1591.947,"endTime":1595.857,"body":"overhead percentage you should shoot for."},{"startTime":1596.047,"endTime":1599.167,"body":"We know it's about"},{"startTime":1596.047,"endTime":1599.167,"body":"fifteen to twenty percent."},{"startTime":1599.177,"endTime":1600.217,"body":"Somewhere in that region."},{"startTime":1600.237,"endTime":1604.337,"body":"I mean, I feel like it should almost be"},{"startTime":1600.237,"endTime":1604.337,"body":"a A GL accounting code by itself, right?"},{"startTime":1604.437,"endTime":1607.577,"body":"But you can, you can assign that"},{"startTime":1604.437,"endTime":1607.577,"body":"time to, if you're doing what I was"},{"startTime":1607.577,"endTime":1612.027,"body":"suggesting , you now have evidence"},{"startTime":1607.577,"endTime":1612.027,"body":"to track that stuff back to you."},{"startTime":1612.027,"endTime":1614.837,"body":"You can say this much"},{"startTime":1612.027,"endTime":1614.837,"body":"time is spent on learning."},{"startTime":1614.857,"endTime":1616.297,"body":"I'm going to account"},{"startTime":1614.857,"endTime":1616.297,"body":"for that in the sprint."},{"startTime":1616.577,"endTime":1620.037,"body":"This much time is spent on whatever"},{"startTime":1616.577,"endTime":1620.037,"body":"specific skill development or"},{"startTime":1620.037,"endTime":1620.967,"body":"whatever, I can account for that."},{"startTime":1620.967,"endTime":1623.037,"body":"You can build it in, but it"},{"startTime":1620.967,"endTime":1623.037,"body":"requires commitment, right?"},{"startTime":1623.087,"endTime":1626.267,"body":"and approval from those that"},{"startTime":1623.087,"endTime":1626.267,"body":"are Hawkeye managers, basically."},{"startTime":1626.437,"endTime":1630.447,"body":"it does require approval from"},{"startTime":1626.437,"endTime":1630.447,"body":"whoever's doing your books cause,"},{"startTime":1630.507,"endTime":1634.497,"body":"they have to roll the low level stuff"},{"startTime":1630.507,"endTime":1634.497,"body":"from JIRA all the way up to the GL."},{"startTime":1634.742,"endTime":1638.142,"body":"that is a bit of a task for a"},{"startTime":1634.742,"endTime":1638.142,"body":"typical finance person because"},{"startTime":1638.142,"endTime":1639.592,"body":"they don't really understand."},{"startTime":1639.742,"endTime":1641.192,"body":"They don't even really"},{"startTime":1639.742,"endTime":1641.192,"body":"know what development does."},{"startTime":1641.202,"endTime":1643.242,"body":"So it's, it's, it's already an ask."},{"startTime":1643.462,"endTime":1643.582,"body":"To them."},{"startTime":1643.582,"endTime":1644.512,"body":"Everything's a GL code."},{"startTime":1644.532,"endTime":1644.802,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":1644.952,"endTime":1645.182,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1645.192,"endTime":1648.042,"body":"let's finish out this document  number"},{"startTime":1645.192,"endTime":1648.042,"body":"four, we just finished since schema"},{"startTime":1648.042,"endTime":1651.472,"body":"acquisition is possibly the most"},{"startTime":1648.042,"endTime":1651.472,"body":"important component of problem solving"},{"startTime":1651.472,"endTime":1653.452,"body":"expertise, the development of expertise."},{"startTime":1653.602,"endTime":1656.122,"body":"It may be slowed by heavy"},{"startTime":1653.602,"endTime":1656.122,"body":"emphasis on problem solving."},{"startTime":1656.172,"endTime":1660.812,"body":"number five the last one, current theories"},{"startTime":1656.172,"endTime":1660.812,"body":"and practice frequently assume problem"},{"startTime":1660.812,"endTime":1666.392,"body":"solving is an effective means of learning"},{"startTime":1660.812,"endTime":1666.392,"body":"and consequently may require modification."},{"startTime":1666.542,"endTime":1668.022,"body":"So the, the idea."},{"startTime":1668.172,"endTime":1671.662,"body":"The idea that on the job training,"},{"startTime":1668.172,"endTime":1671.662,"body":"just throw, throw you into the fire."},{"startTime":1671.662,"endTime":1673.842,"body":"Oh, we're going to"},{"startTime":1671.662,"endTime":1673.842,"body":"throw you into the fire."},{"startTime":1673.992,"endTime":1676.672,"body":"That's a, that's a great way"},{"startTime":1673.992,"endTime":1676.672,"body":"for you to develop skills."},{"startTime":1676.742,"endTime":1679.132,"body":"Like he's he's kind of"},{"startTime":1676.742,"endTime":1679.132,"body":"questioning that as a theory."},{"startTime":1679.132,"endTime":1683.342,"body":"I mean if, if I'm throwing you into the"},{"startTime":1679.132,"endTime":1683.342,"body":"fire, I guess, I guess if I'm going to, if"},{"startTime":1683.342,"endTime":1687.972,"body":"I'm going to argue agile, my own, my own,"},{"startTime":1683.342,"endTime":1687.972,"body":"what I just threw out right there, right."},{"startTime":1688.252,"endTime":1692.082,"body":"If I'm going to put you on a team,"},{"startTime":1688.252,"endTime":1692.082,"body":"but not expect production from"},{"startTime":1692.082,"endTime":1696.392,"body":"you, And just ask you to take"},{"startTime":1692.082,"endTime":1696.392,"body":"everything in and learn, right?"},{"startTime":1696.542,"endTime":1699.982,"body":"So you don't have, capacity goals"},{"startTime":1696.542,"endTime":1699.982,"body":"or utilization goals or whatever,"},{"startTime":1699.982,"endTime":1703.182,"body":"when you start then you have"},{"startTime":1699.982,"endTime":1703.182,"body":"a little bandwidth to do this."},{"startTime":1703.332,"endTime":1706.362,"body":"Like what he's, again, if we go back"},{"startTime":1703.332,"endTime":1706.362,"body":"to the mathematics example where he's"},{"startTime":1706.382,"endTime":1710.772,"body":"given the students a bunch of math"},{"startTime":1706.382,"endTime":1710.772,"body":"problems to solve, he's implying that"},{"startTime":1711.012,"endTime":1715.172,"body":"maybe like giving you a bunch of tests"},{"startTime":1711.012,"endTime":1715.172,"body":"and then screaming at you to finish"},{"startTime":1715.172,"endTime":1720.157,"body":"the That you may not learn anything"},{"startTime":1715.172,"endTime":1720.157,"body":"just by failing to do the problems."},{"startTime":1720.187,"endTime":1720.577,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1720.847,"endTime":1724.207,"body":"So I can relate to our,"},{"startTime":1720.847,"endTime":1724.207,"body":"our day to day, right?"},{"startTime":1724.207,"endTime":1727.887,"body":"So if you're going to throw somebody"},{"startTime":1724.207,"endTime":1727.887,"body":"in a team sink or swim and not"},{"startTime":1727.887,"endTime":1729.907,"body":"expect any output from them, right?"},{"startTime":1730.057,"endTime":1730.317,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1730.347,"endTime":1732.207,"body":"I mean, they're going to learn"},{"startTime":1730.347,"endTime":1732.207,"body":"what they're going to learn by"},{"startTime":1732.537,"endTime":1734.737,"body":"osmosis, observation, et cetera."},{"startTime":1734.887,"endTime":1738.127,"body":"But this is talking to, I think, for me,"},{"startTime":1734.887,"endTime":1738.127,"body":"this is also talking to, Doing things like"},{"startTime":1738.137,"endTime":1740.497,"body":"pay programming or mob programming, right?"},{"startTime":1740.527,"endTime":1743.067,"body":"We oftentimes that's"},{"startTime":1740.527,"endTime":1743.067,"body":"frowned upon by management."},{"startTime":1743.217,"endTime":1743.767,"body":"What do you mean?"},{"startTime":1743.847,"endTime":1745.587,"body":"Why does it take two people"},{"startTime":1743.847,"endTime":1745.587,"body":"to work on that thing?"},{"startTime":1745.617,"endTime":1745.897,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1746.047,"endTime":1750.017,"body":"That's like, you're going to get"},{"startTime":1746.047,"endTime":1750.017,"body":"much better output in the long run."},{"startTime":1750.037,"endTime":1752.637,"body":"You're building quality in"},{"startTime":1750.037,"endTime":1752.637,"body":"whether you realize it or not."},{"startTime":1752.787,"endTime":1756.437,"body":"And so I think part of that is, is"},{"startTime":1752.787,"endTime":1756.437,"body":"speaking to that as well for me."},{"startTime":1756.587,"endTime":1756.957,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1757.277,"endTime":1762.027,"body":"So there's a couple of things in here that"},{"startTime":1757.277,"endTime":1762.027,"body":"are Even 1988, they're still quite radical"},{"startTime":1762.177,"endTime":1765.527,"body":"and even if you just look at the examples"},{"startTime":1762.177,"endTime":1765.527,"body":"he did in the paper Hey, this this may"},{"startTime":1765.527,"endTime":1767.367,"body":"not be the best way to teach people math."},{"startTime":1767.517,"endTime":1770.457,"body":"Our math level in the"},{"startTime":1767.517,"endTime":1770.457,"body":"country is just plummeting."},{"startTime":1770.467,"endTime":1774.397,"body":"It probably isn't in retrospect, but"},{"startTime":1770.467,"endTime":1774.397,"body":"also, like exactly what you just said,"},{"startTime":1774.397,"endTime":1776.357,"body":"like pairing, pairing, just like."},{"startTime":1776.507,"endTime":1780.287,"body":"Pairing a apprentice plumber with"},{"startTime":1776.507,"endTime":1780.287,"body":"a master plumber or several, right?"},{"startTime":1780.437,"endTime":1785.487,"body":"Pairing a junior developer with one"},{"startTime":1780.437,"endTime":1785.487,"body":"or more senior developers day to day."},{"startTime":1785.487,"endTime":1788.457,"body":"So they're not doing anything"},{"startTime":1785.487,"endTime":1788.457,"body":"by them truly by themselves."},{"startTime":1788.607,"endTime":1791.347,"body":"The boy corporate America"},{"startTime":1788.607,"endTime":1791.347,"body":"is like XP came out."},{"startTime":1791.497,"endTime":1794.087,"body":"Well, before the agile man, it did."},{"startTime":1794.137,"endTime":1798.217,"body":"I'm quite honestly, I'm surprised that"},{"startTime":1794.137,"endTime":1798.217,"body":"the pushback of working like this,"},{"startTime":1798.227,"endTime":1801.917,"body":"cause I would say the majority of"},{"startTime":1798.227,"endTime":1801.917,"body":"places that I've been at it's anathema"},{"startTime":1802.067,"endTime":1806.847,"body":"to think that two developers would sit"},{"startTime":1802.067,"endTime":1806.847,"body":"down together and solve one problem."},{"startTime":1807.007,"endTime":1809.767,"body":"They would rather one developer"},{"startTime":1807.007,"endTime":1809.767,"body":"knock out some code, even if it's"},{"startTime":1809.797,"endTime":1813.087,"body":"dodgy, and then have somebody catch"},{"startTime":1809.797,"endTime":1813.087,"body":"the errors and fix them Right."},{"startTime":1813.087,"endTime":1814.877,"body":"And it's actually costing"},{"startTime":1813.087,"endTime":1814.877,"body":"you more in the long run."},{"startTime":1815.017,"endTime":1815.237,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1815.267,"endTime":1816.047,"body":"They just don't know it."},{"startTime":1816.387,"endTime":1821.542,"body":"So the implication is we should rethink"},{"startTime":1816.387,"endTime":1821.542,"body":"our assumptions of how developers work."},{"startTime":1821.692,"endTime":1826.182,"body":"Learn if they learn through their"},{"startTime":1821.692,"endTime":1826.182,"body":"daily work, how they take time to"},{"startTime":1826.182,"endTime":1827.822,"body":"learn while doing their daily work."},{"startTime":1827.972,"endTime":1829.602,"body":"And then whether we should."},{"startTime":1829.752,"endTime":1832.312,"body":"carve out opportunities for them to learn."},{"startTime":1832.412,"endTime":1833.282,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1833.432,"endTime":1837.052,"body":"And you know, again it's hard to"},{"startTime":1833.432,"endTime":1837.052,"body":"have this conversation without also"},{"startTime":1837.052,"endTime":1841.002,"body":"pushing back on the general Western"},{"startTime":1837.052,"endTime":1841.002,"body":"corporate American culture of like,"},{"startTime":1841.212,"endTime":1842.802,"body":"Hey man, learn on your own time."},{"startTime":1842.952,"endTime":1845.912,"body":"You know, that's why we got this training"},{"startTime":1842.952,"endTime":1845.912,"body":"budget that you gotta jump through"},{"startTime":1845.912,"endTime":1849.512,"body":"hoops and write your congressman to"},{"startTime":1845.912,"endTime":1849.512,"body":"request any money from or whatever."},{"startTime":1849.512,"endTime":1849.992,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":1850.152,"endTime":1854.642,"body":"but also like something that is not"},{"startTime":1850.152,"endTime":1854.642,"body":"apparent here is we really have no tools."},{"startTime":1854.642,"endTime":1858.382,"body":"I mean, there's no Jira while they're"},{"startTime":1854.642,"endTime":1858.382,"body":"coming out with their products to"},{"startTime":1858.632,"endTime":1861.672,"body":"extract maximum amount of dollars"},{"startTime":1858.632,"endTime":1861.672,"body":"from people as a service or whatever,"},{"startTime":1861.672,"endTime":1863.132,"body":"like they're not helping you."},{"startTime":1863.282,"endTime":1867.852,"body":"Measure how mentally taxing the"},{"startTime":1863.282,"endTime":1867.852,"body":"different types of tasks that"},{"startTime":1867.852,"endTime":1869.182,"body":"you complete during the day."},{"startTime":1869.352,"endTime":1872.082,"body":"Oh, these are planning tasks, and"},{"startTime":1869.352,"endTime":1872.082,"body":"these are discovery tasks, and these"},{"startTime":1872.082,"endTime":1874.852,"body":"are interviews, and these are people"},{"startTime":1872.082,"endTime":1874.852,"body":"development, and these are one on"},{"startTime":1874.852,"endTime":1878.802,"body":"one, and these are whatever all the"},{"startTime":1874.852,"endTime":1878.802,"body":"switching, and the use of a different"},{"startTime":1878.802,"endTime":1880.652,"body":"skill set to do those different things."},{"startTime":1880.802,"endTime":1885.132,"body":"Like, how mentally taxed you are"},{"startTime":1880.802,"endTime":1885.132,"body":"if you look at the paper, He puts"},{"startTime":1885.142,"endTime":1890.022,"body":"some weight on the cognitive load of"},{"startTime":1885.142,"endTime":1890.022,"body":"different problems and he measures"},{"startTime":1890.072,"endTime":1891.212,"body":"whether they get the answers right."},{"startTime":1891.212,"endTime":1892.792,"body":"And it's, it's actually quite interesting."},{"startTime":1892.992,"endTime":1896.342,"body":"And, the thing to bring back"},{"startTime":1892.992,"endTime":1896.342,"body":"to our line of work is Boy, we"},{"startTime":1896.342,"endTime":1897.482,"body":"just have nothing like that."},{"startTime":1897.492,"endTime":1901.252,"body":"What there really needs to be is there"},{"startTime":1897.492,"endTime":1901.252,"body":"needs to be an AI that's reading from my"},{"startTime":1901.252,"endTime":1907.462,"body":"email, reading from Slack, reading from"},{"startTime":1901.252,"endTime":1907.462,"body":"Jira and reading from whatever, I don't"},{"startTime":1907.462,"endTime":1912.002,"body":"know, maybe you Git or maybe Jenkins or"},{"startTime":1907.462,"endTime":1912.002,"body":"whatever I don't know, basically your"},{"startTime":1912.002,"endTime":1915.692,"body":"systems for checking and releasing code"},{"startTime":1912.002,"endTime":1915.692,"body":"maybe your bug system or whatever, and"},{"startTime":1915.692,"endTime":1918.592,"body":"kind of assessing a cognitive load value."},{"startTime":1918.742,"endTime":1922.282,"body":"To your development teams to say"},{"startTime":1918.742,"endTime":1922.282,"body":"like, Hey, this slow down, slow down."},{"startTime":1922.312,"endTime":1922.732,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1922.982,"endTime":1926.792,"body":"Slow down to speed up basically like,"},{"startTime":1922.982,"endTime":1926.792,"body":"like a risk level or something like that"},{"startTime":1926.792,"endTime":1928.522,"body":"and say, Hey, this team is not learning."},{"startTime":1928.862,"endTime":1931.282,"body":"That would be a cool"},{"startTime":1928.862,"endTime":1931.282,"body":"thing to come up with."},{"startTime":1931.352,"endTime":1932.822,"body":"It doesn't matter what your ALM is."},{"startTime":1932.852,"endTime":1936.182,"body":"It doesn't matter what your science is,"},{"startTime":1932.852,"endTime":1936.182,"body":"because whatever you're doing, you're"},{"startTime":1936.182,"endTime":1938.212,"body":"using the same method for everybody."},{"startTime":1938.222,"endTime":1940.932,"body":"So whatever errors you have,"},{"startTime":1938.222,"endTime":1940.932,"body":"wash out it would be cool."},{"startTime":1940.962,"endTime":1942.242,"body":"It would be really cool to see that."},{"startTime":1942.242,"endTime":1946.522,"body":"But yeah, actually you probably could do"},{"startTime":1942.242,"endTime":1946.522,"body":"it just with a plugin on your ALM tool."},{"startTime":1946.522,"endTime":1951.212,"body":"Just start with when you install the"},{"startTime":1946.522,"endTime":1951.212,"body":"plugin, it installs the components to suit"},{"startTime":1951.482,"endTime":1954.452,"body":"the measurement of this stuff, kind of"},{"startTime":1951.482,"endTime":1954.452,"body":"where it's talking about the capabilities,"},{"startTime":1954.692,"endTime":1958.322,"body":"feature development, maintenance,"},{"startTime":1954.692,"endTime":1958.322,"body":"development, bug fixes, whatever, right."},{"startTime":1958.332,"endTime":1959.232,"body":"Just some capabilities."},{"startTime":1959.572,"endTime":1962.402,"body":"And then it's up to you to"},{"startTime":1959.572,"endTime":1962.402,"body":"integrate those into your work."},{"startTime":1962.402,"endTime":1965.872,"body":"So the tool will have to tell you"},{"startTime":1962.402,"endTime":1965.872,"body":"like, Hey here's a report about what"},{"startTime":1965.882,"endTime":1967.722,"body":"has no capabilities assigned away."},{"startTime":1967.732,"endTime":1969.382,"body":"Maybe you need to do better"},{"startTime":1967.732,"endTime":1969.382,"body":"about assigning them."},{"startTime":1969.382,"endTime":1972.222,"body":"But once the majority of your work"},{"startTime":1969.382,"endTime":1972.222,"body":"items in the system have this thing"},{"startTime":1972.222,"endTime":1976.072,"body":"assigned, You can start pulling"},{"startTime":1972.222,"endTime":1976.072,"body":"reports to say, Hey, by team and the"},{"startTime":1976.072,"endTime":1981.332,"body":"work items I see completed, I see"},{"startTime":1976.072,"endTime":1981.332,"body":"you guys doing 95% 99 percent feature"},{"startTime":1981.332,"endTime":1985.132,"body":"maintenance work, bug fixes, and I"},{"startTime":1981.332,"endTime":1985.132,"body":"don't see a lot of capabilities in here."},{"startTime":1985.212,"endTime":1988.837,"body":"I don't see the team being assigned"},{"startTime":1985.212,"endTime":1988.837,"body":"tickets to go improve their skill set."},{"startTime":1988.837,"endTime":1991.292,"body":"And you might see something like"},{"startTime":1988.837,"endTime":1991.292,"body":"that and say, Oh, well, they could,"},{"startTime":1991.292,"endTime":1992.562,"body":"they're doing that on their own time."},{"startTime":1992.562,"endTime":1994.952,"body":"Or, Oh, I don't track that in the"},{"startTime":1992.562,"endTime":1994.952,"body":"backlog or, Oh, I don't, you know."},{"startTime":1994.952,"endTime":1997.672,"body":"But it would be really cool to"},{"startTime":1994.952,"endTime":1997.672,"body":"see it on a report, you know?"},{"startTime":1997.722,"endTime":1999.122,"body":"Well, yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1999.122,"endTime":1999.842,"body":"It would be really nice."},{"startTime":1999.882,"endTime":2003.642,"body":"And you know, it would also arm"},{"startTime":1999.882,"endTime":2003.642,"body":"you with some evidence to go up to"},{"startTime":2003.692,"endTime":2005.732,"body":"leadership with and say, this is needed."},{"startTime":2005.902,"endTime":2009.062,"body":"Or you could just blindside them and say,"},{"startTime":2005.902,"endTime":2009.062,"body":"no, we're just going to do it anyway."},{"startTime":2009.112,"endTime":2012.902,"body":"I think the difficulty here is"},{"startTime":2009.112,"endTime":2012.902,"body":"number one, a lack of an overhead."},{"startTime":2013.052,"endTime":2016.902,"body":"A generally accepted overhead of"},{"startTime":2013.052,"endTime":2016.902,"body":"developers this much time, generally"},{"startTime":2016.902,"endTime":2020.502,"body":"speaking, should be put aside for"},{"startTime":2016.902,"endTime":2020.502,"body":"planning, but that time varies based on"},{"startTime":2020.652,"endTime":2023.052,"body":"the skill sets you already have, right?"},{"startTime":2023.052,"endTime":2023.842,"body":"Yeah, it varies."},{"startTime":2024.102,"endTime":2025.122,"body":"It's not gonna vary a lot."},{"startTime":2025.222,"endTime":2027.042,"body":"I think you said earlier"},{"startTime":2025.222,"endTime":2027.042,"body":"somewhere between."},{"startTime":2027.192,"endTime":2029.752,"body":"pick a number and go with it and"},{"startTime":2027.192,"endTime":2029.752,"body":"then adjust it as you need to."},{"startTime":2029.762,"endTime":2032.892,"body":"Well, you probably could also adjust that"},{"startTime":2029.762,"endTime":2032.892,"body":"number depending on people's skill levels."},{"startTime":2032.892,"endTime":2035.452,"body":"when you're junior, maybe you"},{"startTime":2032.892,"endTime":2035.452,"body":"need 30 percent or whatever."},{"startTime":2035.452,"endTime":2038.012,"body":"When you're way more senior, maybe"},{"startTime":2035.452,"endTime":2038.012,"body":"it falls all the way down to 10%."},{"startTime":2039.432,"endTime":2039.832,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2039.842,"endTime":2041.732,"body":"Maybe it changes based on the skill level."},{"startTime":2042.072,"endTime":2044.502,"body":"Volatility of the business that you're"},{"startTime":2042.072,"endTime":2044.502,"body":"involved in and whether you're a"},{"startTime":2044.502,"endTime":2047.752,"body":"startup in a new field, et cetera, et"},{"startTime":2044.502,"endTime":2047.752,"body":"cetera, there's probably more factors."},{"startTime":2047.992,"endTime":2052.092,"body":"It'd be real interesting to take"},{"startTime":2047.992,"endTime":2052.092,"body":"this work, apply it specifically"},{"startTime":2052.092,"endTime":2054.632,"body":"to Agile software development,"},{"startTime":2052.092,"endTime":2054.632,"body":"and then do the study again."},{"startTime":2054.652,"endTime":2056.182,"body":"Yeah, that would be good."},{"startTime":2056.362,"endTime":2059.322,"body":"So instead of students, you're"},{"startTime":2056.362,"endTime":2059.322,"body":"going to get developers in and yeah,"},{"startTime":2059.352,"endTime":2060.762,"body":"that would be really interesting."},{"startTime":2060.912,"endTime":2063.312,"body":"So if anybody's listening,"},{"startTime":2060.912,"endTime":2063.312,"body":"you want to take this on."},{"startTime":2063.462,"endTime":2065.122,"body":"Get in touch and we'll,"},{"startTime":2063.462,"endTime":2065.122,"body":"we'll collaborate on it."},{"startTime":2065.132,"endTime":2067.562,"body":"And if you're a PhD student,"},{"startTime":2065.132,"endTime":2067.562,"body":"you're looking for a problem."},{"startTime":2067.862,"endTime":2069.912,"body":"Yes, we have a solution."},{"startTime":2070.062,"endTime":2070.422,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2070.572,"endTime":2071.922,"body":"Well Om, take us away."},{"startTime":2072.202,"endTime":2072.682,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2072.682,"endTime":2074.402,"body":"Well, thank you for"},{"startTime":2072.682,"endTime":2074.402,"body":"staying with us thus far."},{"startTime":2074.532,"endTime":2076.792,"body":"And let us know what else"},{"startTime":2074.532,"endTime":2076.792,"body":"you'd like us to talk about."},{"startTime":2077.032,"endTime":2081.182,"body":"Remember, you get these topics only"},{"startTime":2077.032,"endTime":2081.182,"body":"at this podcast on Arguing Agile."},{"startTime":2081.332,"endTime":2082.702,"body":"Don't forget to like and subscribe"}]}