{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.978,"endTime":13.827,"body":"first of all, welcome"},{"startTime":11.978,"endTime":13.827,"body":"back to arguing agile."},{"startTime":13.838,"endTime":16.808,"body":"If you're a product manager, if you're"},{"startTime":13.838,"endTime":16.808,"body":"in the agile community, you're on"},{"startTime":16.808,"endTime":19.868,"body":"development teams, really, if you"},{"startTime":16.808,"endTime":19.868,"body":"work in software development at all,"},{"startTime":20.018,"endTime":23.498,"body":"at some point you will run across"},{"startTime":20.018,"endTime":23.498,"body":"this conflict of, we need a person"},{"startTime":23.508,"endTime":25.497,"body":"to do this specific role on our team."},{"startTime":25.647,"endTime":28.187,"body":"And then management will say, we"},{"startTime":25.647,"endTime":28.187,"body":"should have somebody like that."},{"startTime":28.207,"endTime":30.768,"body":"In fact, why don't we make them"},{"startTime":28.207,"endTime":30.768,"body":"available to all the teams?"},{"startTime":30.768,"endTime":34.728,"body":"And I'll quote, control"},{"startTime":30.768,"endTime":34.728,"body":"the quote resources."},{"startTime":34.878,"endTime":35.508,"body":"well, wait a minute."},{"startTime":35.658,"endTime":39.138,"body":"Marty Cagan and Inspired and all"},{"startTime":35.658,"endTime":39.138,"body":"these books say and then we just went"},{"startTime":39.138,"endTime":42.008,"body":"through the whole thing about Transform"},{"startTime":39.138,"endTime":42.008,"body":"talking about like you really need"},{"startTime":42.258,"endTime":45.488,"body":"durable teams What about all that"},{"startTime":42.258,"endTime":45.488,"body":"and they will say well calm down."},{"startTime":45.548,"endTime":46.948,"body":"Like slow down kid."},{"startTime":47.128,"endTime":48.448,"body":"Yeah, don't be a troublemaker."},{"startTime":48.448,"endTime":51.328,"body":"Oh, yeah Yeah, get back in your"},{"startTime":48.448,"endTime":51.328,"body":"corner Well, the adults will take it"},{"startTime":51.328,"endTime":53.708,"body":"from here and they'll then they'll"},{"startTime":51.328,"endTime":53.708,"body":"push you Away from the Marty Cagan"},{"startTime":53.708,"endTime":56.368,"body":"durable teams and pushing more"},{"startTime":53.708,"endTime":56.368,"body":"towards like a shared services."},{"startTime":56.368,"endTime":60.238,"body":"One minute you have a durable team, and"},{"startTime":56.368,"endTime":60.238,"body":"then the next minute you gotta pass the"},{"startTime":60.238,"endTime":63.788,"body":"front end work to the front end team and"},{"startTime":60.238,"endTime":63.788,"body":"the front end team can't start until the"},{"startTime":63.798,"endTime":67.268,"body":"backend team stop, and then you gotta"},{"startTime":63.798,"endTime":67.268,"body":"get your sign off from the DBA that your"},{"startTime":67.268,"endTime":70.368,"body":"store procedures are all optimized and"},{"startTime":67.268,"endTime":70.368,"body":"everything, and you've got to throw it"},{"startTime":70.368,"endTime":71.608,"body":"over the fence to the QA department."},{"startTime":71.608,"endTime":73.528,"body":"And now suddenly we're all."},{"startTime":74.893,"endTime":78.563,"body":"Yeah, this is exactly where"},{"startTime":74.893,"endTime":78.563,"body":"the handoff circus will ensue."},{"startTime":78.563,"endTime":78.883,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":78.993,"endTime":81.833,"body":"But this also applies"},{"startTime":78.993,"endTime":81.833,"body":"to other domains, right?"},{"startTime":81.873,"endTime":89.152,"body":"This applies to UX, DevOps testers, even"},{"startTime":81.873,"endTime":89.152,"body":"you get testers seconded to your team from"},{"startTime":89.353,"endTime":91.812,"body":"some shared services, team of testers."},{"startTime":91.962,"endTime":95.572,"body":"So this concept of shared"},{"startTime":91.962,"endTime":95.572,"body":"services is certainly not new."},{"startTime":95.573,"endTime":99.943,"body":"And in this podcast today, we're going"},{"startTime":95.573,"endTime":99.943,"body":"to delve deeper into the pros and cons of"},{"startTime":99.943,"endTime":104.563,"body":"it, you'll recognize some of the behaviors"},{"startTime":99.943,"endTime":104.563,"body":"that we will characterize in this podcast."},{"startTime":104.563,"endTime":109.313,"body":"So this podcast is specifically about"},{"startTime":104.563,"endTime":109.313,"body":"when you're lobbying for durable teams,"},{"startTime":109.463,"endTime":113.423,"body":"cross functional have all the skills"},{"startTime":109.463,"endTime":113.423,"body":"that the team needs to do the job on"},{"startTime":113.423,"endTime":116.623,"body":"the team, but share between the team"},{"startTime":113.423,"endTime":116.623,"body":"members and you're lobbying for that,"},{"startTime":116.623,"endTime":118.573,"body":"and the business is saying, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":118.573,"endTime":121.243,"body":"We kind of know better how to do things."},{"startTime":121.593,"endTime":123.513,"body":"You know, forget that Marty"},{"startTime":121.593,"endTime":123.513,"body":"Cagan guy, what has he ever done?"},{"startTime":123.528,"endTime":128.453,"body":"Like this podcast will arm you to"},{"startTime":123.528,"endTime":128.453,"body":"understand  the typical pushback that"},{"startTime":128.453,"endTime":130.163,"body":"we have heard in these categories."},{"startTime":130.353,"endTime":133.263,"body":"And hopefully you'll be able to gauge"},{"startTime":130.353,"endTime":133.263,"body":"the depth of the quicksand here."},{"startTime":133.593,"endTime":138.273,"body":"You notice how people that push back and"},{"startTime":133.593,"endTime":138.273,"body":"say, we know better how to do this right."},{"startTime":138.323,"endTime":141.293,"body":"Take that with a ton of salt,"},{"startTime":138.323,"endTime":141.293,"body":"not a grain, a ton of salt."},{"startTime":141.443,"endTime":144.883,"body":"If they've never done it and you're"},{"startTime":141.443,"endTime":144.883,"body":"listening to their way of doing it,"},{"startTime":145.203,"endTime":148.253,"body":"you already know that things aren't"},{"startTime":145.203,"endTime":148.253,"body":"necessarily going to work out."},{"startTime":148.253,"endTime":151.623,"body":"But we'll see by the end of"},{"startTime":148.253,"endTime":151.623,"body":"this podcast where you end up."},{"startTime":151.653,"endTime":154.463,"body":"these arguments are very real"},{"startTime":151.653,"endTime":154.463,"body":"and I may or may not have."},{"startTime":155.558,"endTime":159.428,"body":"Been on the receiving end of every single"},{"startTime":155.558,"endTime":159.428,"body":"one of them Different parts you had your"},{"startTime":159.428,"endTime":163.268,"body":"bet but I can tell you I have I've got"},{"startTime":159.428,"endTime":163.268,"body":"the scars to prove it too on my back"},{"startTime":163.418,"endTime":164.668,"body":"all right, let's get into this then."},{"startTime":164.818,"endTime":168.038,"body":"Point number one, You'll never lobby for"},{"startTime":164.818,"endTime":168.038,"body":"having these durable teams and this is"},{"startTime":168.188,"endTime":171.748,"body":"all the skill Distributed to the teams"},{"startTime":168.188,"endTime":171.748,"body":"and whatnot because That's not what you"},{"startTime":171.748,"endTime":173.048,"body":"have in the traditional work structure."},{"startTime":173.188,"endTime":173.618,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":173.618,"endTime":175.618,"body":"We're starting a number one point."},{"startTime":175.628,"endTime":178.228,"body":"Number one with like,"},{"startTime":175.628,"endTime":178.228,"body":"that's not how I learned it."},{"startTime":178.238,"endTime":179.818,"body":"That's not what I learned in MBA class."},{"startTime":179.818,"endTime":182.798,"body":"That's not what any of my"},{"startTime":179.818,"endTime":182.798,"body":"other giant organizations did."},{"startTime":182.868,"endTime":186.078,"body":"So we may as well, we may as"},{"startTime":182.868,"endTime":186.078,"body":"well open with our ACE of spades"},{"startTime":186.078,"endTime":190.048,"body":"here, organizational structure"},{"startTime":186.078,"endTime":190.048,"body":"dictates the way you work, right."},{"startTime":190.068,"endTime":191.518,"body":"Those of you in the back, believe me."},{"startTime":191.803,"endTime":193.693,"body":"That is exactly what happens."},{"startTime":194.013,"endTime":197.823,"body":"You're not at liberty to try and shuffle"},{"startTime":194.013,"endTime":197.823,"body":"that up because you've got a whole"},{"startTime":198.023,"endTime":203.293,"body":"drove of people that are going to say"},{"startTime":198.023,"endTime":203.293,"body":"this is the way we should work because"},{"startTime":203.443,"endTime":207.183,"body":"that's what we learned, like you said,"},{"startTime":203.443,"endTime":207.183,"body":"in business school, this is how we"},{"startTime":207.183,"endTime":209.392,"body":"grew up working and it must be right."},{"startTime":209.583,"endTime":213.453,"body":"Not that it worked right"},{"startTime":209.583,"endTime":213.453,"body":"before but still, right?"},{"startTime":213.793,"endTime":215.423,"body":"So take that for what it is."},{"startTime":215.453,"endTime":218.083,"body":"Org structure is not something you're"},{"startTime":215.453,"endTime":218.083,"body":"going to be able to change overnight."},{"startTime":218.083,"endTime":218.123,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":218.273,"endTime":222.123,"body":"You'll have a better chance of"},{"startTime":218.273,"endTime":222.123,"body":"fighting City Hall, but I'm silos,"},{"startTime":222.133,"endTime":226.472,"body":"the pyramid or org chart you know"},{"startTime":222.133,"endTime":226.472,"body":"the hierarchical org chart, whatever"},{"startTime":226.472,"endTime":227.632,"body":"you want to say, we'll call it like,"},{"startTime":227.782,"endTime":228.382,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":228.412,"endTime":229.943,"body":"it's too early in the podcast."},{"startTime":229.943,"endTime":230.803,"body":"Om for surprise."},{"startTime":230.822,"endTime":231.852,"body":"It's Taylorism."},{"startTime":232.013,"endTime":233.473,"body":"I feel we need a banner and we need."},{"startTime":233.488,"endTime":237.838,"body":"Sound whenever it surprises Taylor ism"},{"startTime":233.488,"endTime":237.838,"body":"happens on the podcast, but surprise."},{"startTime":237.938,"endTime":239.448,"body":"I, yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":239.748,"endTime":241.378,"body":"I wonder what music Taylor would like."},{"startTime":241.628,"endTime":243.868,"body":"we should definitely do"},{"startTime":241.628,"endTime":243.868,"body":"that little flying banner."},{"startTime":244.018,"endTime":245.768,"body":"Unfortunately that is real though."},{"startTime":245.868,"endTime":250.278,"body":"if you work for a company that's bigger"},{"startTime":245.868,"endTime":250.278,"body":"than 50 people, you're already suffering"},{"startTime":250.278,"endTime":251.968,"body":"the tyranny of the org structure."},{"startTime":252.118,"endTime":253.238,"body":"And there are very few."},{"startTime":253.388,"endTime":257.658,"body":"Orgs that are 50 plus that have"},{"startTime":253.388,"endTime":257.658,"body":"optimized the structure for success."},{"startTime":257.688,"endTime":261.667,"body":"I was going to say responded to, yeah,"},{"startTime":257.688,"endTime":261.667,"body":"even, even responded to respond to that."},{"startTime":261.697,"endTime":266.677,"body":"It's just because people come"},{"startTime":261.697,"endTime":266.677,"body":"from backgrounds that aren't like."},{"startTime":266.827,"endTime":269.107,"body":"You know, holacracy or anywhere near that."},{"startTime":269.117,"endTime":271.047,"body":"Not I'm not saying holacracy is a perfect."},{"startTime":271.197,"endTime":273.827,"body":"They're much better than"},{"startTime":271.197,"endTime":273.827,"body":"what we already know."},{"startTime":273.857,"endTime":274.137,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":274.147,"endTime":277.897,"body":"So unfortunately, if you're in that"},{"startTime":274.147,"endTime":277.897,"body":"kind of an environment, you are going"},{"startTime":277.897,"endTime":282.197,"body":"to experience teams that are even if"},{"startTime":277.897,"endTime":282.197,"body":"they don't call them shared services."},{"startTime":282.197,"endTime":284.407,"body":"It's basically you have to"},{"startTime":282.197,"endTime":284.407,"body":"reach across the aisle and"},{"startTime":284.407,"endTime":286.117,"body":"borrow people for your teams."},{"startTime":286.267,"endTime":286.627,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":286.917,"endTime":290.397,"body":"And when you lobby for that, you"},{"startTime":286.917,"endTime":290.397,"body":"may or may not get the best person."},{"startTime":290.547,"endTime":293.177,"body":"You may not, you may or may"},{"startTime":290.547,"endTime":293.177,"body":"not get the same person again."},{"startTime":293.327,"endTime":296.057,"body":"So you may have somebody for a"},{"startTime":293.327,"endTime":296.057,"body":"sprint or two, and then they go"},{"startTime":296.057,"endTime":299.487,"body":"away, and then whoever's available"},{"startTime":296.057,"endTime":299.487,"body":"gets, they get seconded to you."},{"startTime":299.637,"endTime":301.067,"body":"I'm not sleighting the skill sets."},{"startTime":301.067,"endTime":305.067,"body":"These people have, what I'm saying"},{"startTime":301.067,"endTime":305.067,"body":"is changing so frequently, right?"},{"startTime":305.067,"endTime":308.537,"body":"It's just going back to the old context,"},{"startTime":305.067,"endTime":308.537,"body":"switching thing, changing so frequently"},{"startTime":308.567,"endTime":311.317,"body":"is not good for your teams because they're"},{"startTime":308.567,"endTime":311.317,"body":"going to have to explain to the new"},{"startTime":311.317,"endTime":315.397,"body":"person, everything they explained to the"},{"startTime":311.317,"endTime":315.397,"body":"other person that left just a sprint ago"},{"startTime":315.537,"endTime":317.877,"body":"So sometimes you get lucky"},{"startTime":315.537,"endTime":317.877,"body":"and then, and you get told."},{"startTime":318.207,"endTime":321.907,"body":"Yeah, we're we're allocating Bob or Mary"},{"startTime":318.207,"endTime":321.907,"body":"to your team and they're going to be"},{"startTime":321.907,"endTime":323.717,"body":"with your team until the project ends."},{"startTime":323.867,"endTime":325.237,"body":"That never actually happens."},{"startTime":325.537,"endTime":328.357,"body":"Most projects run over and Bob"},{"startTime":325.537,"endTime":328.357,"body":"and Mary have other things to"},{"startTime":328.357,"endTime":329.757,"body":"do, so they get pulled out."},{"startTime":330.007,"endTime":332.657,"body":"Well, that's the interesting about"},{"startTime":330.007,"endTime":332.657,"body":"Bob and Mary having other things"},{"startTime":332.657,"endTime":337.127,"body":"to do is that it smacks of the"},{"startTime":332.657,"endTime":337.127,"body":"traditional silos and it smacks of"},{"startTime":337.277,"endTime":340.717,"body":"quote resource quote utilization."},{"startTime":340.967,"endTime":345.567,"body":"The two words that Go together so well,"},{"startTime":340.967,"endTime":345.567,"body":"like two four letter words is that, I"},{"startTime":345.717,"endTime":348.127,"body":"mean, that's what's going on here is"},{"startTime":345.717,"endTime":348.127,"body":"that they're trying to say like, well,"},{"startTime":348.177,"endTime":354.897,"body":"how many QA team members should I have"},{"startTime":348.177,"endTime":354.897,"body":"per developer and per active project?"},{"startTime":355.067,"endTime":359.777,"body":"And it can one QA person share"},{"startTime":355.067,"endTime":359.777,"body":"across two projects at once."},{"startTime":359.917,"endTime":360.907,"body":"And what's the breaking point."},{"startTime":360.907,"endTime":362.227,"body":"And they're trying to stretch this."},{"startTime":362.377,"endTime":363.667,"body":"As much as possible."},{"startTime":363.737,"endTime":365.867,"body":"and then when somebody"},{"startTime":363.737,"endTime":365.867,"body":"quits, all hell breaks loose."},{"startTime":366.137,"endTime":368.147,"body":"'cause they already know, they've"},{"startTime":366.137,"endTime":368.147,"body":"already run the numbers and they"},{"startTime":368.147,"endTime":369.587,"body":"know they can't stretch across three."},{"startTime":369.757,"endTime":372.247,"body":"But then you have to, until"},{"startTime":369.757,"endTime":372.247,"body":"they can backfill a person then"},{"startTime":372.247,"endTime":373.687,"body":"everything just falls apart."},{"startTime":373.687,"endTime":374.677,"body":"QA is a good example."},{"startTime":374.677,"endTime":378.912,"body":"I think UX is also a good example"},{"startTime":374.677,"endTime":378.912,"body":"because a UX person on your team"},{"startTime":379.062,"endTime":382.212,"body":"knows the full context of the"},{"startTime":379.062,"endTime":382.212,"body":"customer journey and the experience."},{"startTime":382.452,"endTime":386.412,"body":"And when you have that person switched"},{"startTime":382.452,"endTime":386.412,"body":"out for another very capable UX"},{"startTime":386.412,"endTime":390.812,"body":"person, You lose the continuity and"},{"startTime":386.412,"endTime":390.812,"body":"the team as a whole suffers and the"},{"startTime":390.812,"endTime":392.642,"body":"customer suffers in the end, really."},{"startTime":392.732,"endTime":395.802,"body":"So does the organization, because if"},{"startTime":392.732,"endTime":395.802,"body":"the customer is suffering, you can bet"},{"startTime":395.802,"endTime":397.132,"body":"that the organization is suffering."},{"startTime":397.282,"endTime":401.792,"body":"It used to be that people used to say"},{"startTime":397.282,"endTime":401.792,"body":"resource utilization a lot in the old"},{"startTime":401.792,"endTime":404.502,"body":"days, right, of evil waterfall management."},{"startTime":404.682,"endTime":408.332,"body":"But lately they've been"},{"startTime":404.682,"endTime":408.332,"body":"saying, They pivoted slightly."},{"startTime":408.362,"endTime":410.692,"body":"They say resource optimization."},{"startTime":410.942,"endTime":412.152,"body":"Oh, is that the new hotness?"},{"startTime":412.352,"endTime":413.152,"body":"That's the new hot take."},{"startTime":413.482,"endTime":414.582,"body":"That's the new hot take."},{"startTime":414.582,"endTime":417.052,"body":"Resource optimization, spread thinly."},{"startTime":417.052,"endTime":419.112,"body":"Like it says on my you know, ointment."},{"startTime":419.262,"endTime":419.892,"body":"Spread thinly."},{"startTime":419.902,"endTime":421.542,"body":"Thanks for bringing that"},{"startTime":419.902,"endTime":421.542,"body":"term to the podcast."},{"startTime":421.652,"endTime":422.162,"body":"I hate it."},{"startTime":422.292,"endTime":425.642,"body":"So let's strip away resource, calling"},{"startTime":422.292,"endTime":425.642,"body":"people resources for a second."},{"startTime":425.972,"endTime":427.052,"body":"And just call this what it is."},{"startTime":427.202,"endTime":431.963,"body":"Utilization, like trying to squeeze like"},{"startTime":427.202,"endTime":431.963,"body":"a sponge trying to squeeze every bit"},{"startTime":431.993,"endTime":435.213,"body":"of possible work out of a person,  just"},{"startTime":431.993,"endTime":435.213,"body":"like the old consulting, you can take"},{"startTime":435.213,"endTime":436.573,"body":"as many vacation hours as you want."},{"startTime":436.603,"endTime":439.483,"body":"As long as you work 40 hours at the end"},{"startTime":436.603,"endTime":439.483,"body":"of each week and charges to the client."},{"startTime":439.793,"endTime":440.873,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":440.913,"endTime":444.543,"body":"Well, like that, that's,"},{"startTime":440.913,"endTime":444.543,"body":"this one is utilization."},{"startTime":444.803,"endTime":447.543,"body":"I need to have my people as close"},{"startTime":444.803,"endTime":447.543,"body":"to whatever the company, usually"},{"startTime":447.543,"endTime":450.913,"body":"finance picks this number we want"},{"startTime":447.543,"endTime":450.913,"body":"everyone to be 95 percent utilized."},{"startTime":451.063,"endTime":453.753,"body":"I don't know where they get that"},{"startTime":451.063,"endTime":453.753,"body":"from, but 95 percent utilized and you"},{"startTime":453.753,"endTime":455.293,"body":"know, go, go managers, make it happen."},{"startTime":455.293,"endTime":457.423,"body":"We're going to hold your"},{"startTime":455.293,"endTime":457.423,"body":"feet to the fire or whatever."},{"startTime":457.683,"endTime":460.143,"body":"Although I don't, I can, When"},{"startTime":457.683,"endTime":460.143,"body":"I was a manager, I don't ever"},{"startTime":460.143,"endTime":464.073,"body":"remember getting pinged for this"},{"startTime":460.143,"endTime":464.073,"body":"positive or negative utilization."},{"startTime":464.223,"endTime":467.363,"body":"Most of the time, because I think like"},{"startTime":464.223,"endTime":467.363,"body":"the spreadsheets that they get those"},{"startTime":467.363,"endTime":470.383,"body":"numbers from a timesheets that they"},{"startTime":467.363,"endTime":470.383,"body":"give those numbers from people's in or"},{"startTime":470.383,"endTime":473.673,"body":"whatever, who's going to check who goes"},{"startTime":470.383,"endTime":473.673,"body":"around and checks everyone's timesheet."},{"startTime":473.833,"endTime":476.353,"body":"the Taylor time manager person."},{"startTime":476.353,"endTime":477.403,"body":"I can't remember what they were called."},{"startTime":477.683,"endTime":478.903,"body":"The time clerk."},{"startTime":479.053,"endTime":479.683,"body":"I think that's what they were."},{"startTime":479.963,"endTime":481.093,"body":"Anyway, the utilization."},{"startTime":481.093,"endTime":484.393,"body":"So I guess if I'm going to be a"},{"startTime":481.093,"endTime":484.393,"body":"product manager on the podcast,"},{"startTime":484.433,"endTime":485.782,"body":"I represent product management,"},{"startTime":484.433,"endTime":485.782,"body":"I'm going to be a product manager."},{"startTime":485.833,"endTime":489.533,"body":"I'm going to push back on this one of"},{"startTime":485.833,"endTime":489.533,"body":"like, well, Brian, how do we know that"},{"startTime":489.533,"endTime":490.923,"body":"people are not taking advantage of us?"},{"startTime":490.923,"endTime":495.123,"body":"And how do we know that they're working"},{"startTime":490.923,"endTime":495.123,"body":"the correct amount of hours or whatever."},{"startTime":495.463,"endTime":499.983,"body":"And my response will be, and has"},{"startTime":495.463,"endTime":499.983,"body":"been I could care less, I don't care."},{"startTime":500.133,"endTime":503.463,"body":"If you want to make yourself feel good,"},{"startTime":500.133,"endTime":503.463,"body":"you can make people put hours against"},{"startTime":503.613,"endTime":505.493,"body":"projects or GL codes or whatever."},{"startTime":505.753,"endTime":508.193,"body":"That's just going to be a feel"},{"startTime":505.753,"endTime":508.193,"body":"good thing for you in reality."},{"startTime":508.493,"endTime":512.553,"body":"If somebody puts their work three"},{"startTime":508.493,"endTime":512.553,"body":"hours on a team and then two hours"},{"startTime":512.553,"endTime":516.083,"body":"on another team for a fact, that's"},{"startTime":512.553,"endTime":516.083,"body":"a full day already because they had"},{"startTime":516.083,"endTime":519.683,"body":"that context switching cost in there,"},{"startTime":516.083,"endTime":519.683,"body":"their effectivity goes way down."},{"startTime":519.683,"endTime":521.523,"body":"Yeah, and this has been proven already."},{"startTime":521.573,"endTime":522.973,"body":"that's that is the fact of it."},{"startTime":522.973,"endTime":526.223,"body":"but again, to this manager who"},{"startTime":522.973,"endTime":526.223,"body":"thinks that on paper they need to"},{"startTime":526.263,"endTime":530.123,"body":"do this consolidation and see that"},{"startTime":526.263,"endTime":530.123,"body":"95 percent of the hours were spent"},{"startTime":530.133,"endTime":531.203,"body":"on like I'll give you an example."},{"startTime":531.203,"endTime":535.933,"body":"And we're all developers and we both knock"},{"startTime":531.203,"endTime":535.933,"body":"out our hours and I put 40 hours charge to"},{"startTime":535.933,"endTime":541.583,"body":"the client done and then you put like 30"},{"startTime":535.933,"endTime":541.583,"body":"hours and then 10 hours of like something"},{"startTime":541.583,"endTime":543.783,"body":"else filling out paperwork because"},{"startTime":541.583,"endTime":543.783,"body":"you had to go through some mandatory"},{"startTime":543.783,"endTime":547.893,"body":"trainings or whatever now the company is"},{"startTime":543.783,"endTime":547.893,"body":"going to be looking at you negatively."},{"startTime":547.933,"endTime":549.883,"body":"Or like, because the client's"},{"startTime":547.933,"endTime":549.883,"body":"not going to pay for that."},{"startTime":550.033,"endTime":552.463,"body":"Whereas like, what happens if"},{"startTime":550.033,"endTime":552.463,"body":"you don't, what happens if you"},{"startTime":552.463,"endTime":555.653,"body":"don't pull 40 hours because you"},{"startTime":552.463,"endTime":555.653,"body":"had other things you were doing?"},{"startTime":555.823,"endTime":557.103,"body":"What what is, why does it matter?"},{"startTime":557.398,"endTime":561.198,"body":"It really shouldn't matter, but I've"},{"startTime":557.398,"endTime":561.198,"body":"lived in that world where I have to"},{"startTime":561.318,"endTime":567.148,"body":"bill a net 40 and then not include"},{"startTime":561.318,"endTime":567.148,"body":"in that 40 the hour it took me to do"},{"startTime":567.148,"endTime":571.328,"body":"my expenses because I've been on the"},{"startTime":567.148,"endTime":571.328,"body":"road a while, or do an internal status"},{"startTime":571.328,"endTime":575.018,"body":"report for my company, not my client,"},{"startTime":571.328,"endTime":575.018,"body":"because I can't be billing the client"},{"startTime":575.028,"endTime":576.458,"body":"for something that my company wants."},{"startTime":576.608,"endTime":579.238,"body":"So it's like, yeah, I mean,"},{"startTime":576.608,"endTime":579.238,"body":"you're going to rob Peter to"},{"startTime":579.238,"endTime":580.498,"body":"pay Paul at the end of the day."},{"startTime":580.508,"endTime":582.748,"body":"I worked at a company once"},{"startTime":580.508,"endTime":582.748,"body":"that had two buildings."},{"startTime":582.758,"endTime":584.048,"body":"The buildings were very"},{"startTime":582.758,"endTime":584.048,"body":"close to each other."},{"startTime":584.198,"endTime":587.178,"body":"But with driving and parking and all that"},{"startTime":584.198,"endTime":587.178,"body":"kind of stuff, we would take probably half"},{"startTime":587.178,"endTime":589.008,"body":"an hour to go from one place to another."},{"startTime":589.288,"endTime":592.418,"body":"they very easily could have said the"},{"startTime":589.288,"endTime":592.418,"body":"finance people could have said we know"},{"startTime":592.418,"endTime":595.368,"body":"it's a regular part of business to go"},{"startTime":592.418,"endTime":595.368,"body":"from site to site during the work day."},{"startTime":595.458,"endTime":597.768,"body":"And we're not trying to say that"},{"startTime":595.458,"endTime":597.768,"body":"you do that on your own time, but"},{"startTime":598.048,"endTime":600.828,"body":"when you charge your time sheet, we"},{"startTime":598.048,"endTime":600.828,"body":"would like that on a separate line item."},{"startTime":601.078,"endTime":603.148,"body":"So we can see how much time"},{"startTime":601.078,"endTime":603.148,"body":"we're spending on this."},{"startTime":603.298,"endTime":604.718,"body":"So that we can justify it."},{"startTime":604.768,"endTime":605.078,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":605.228,"endTime":610.258,"body":"Again, making sure people are working"},{"startTime":605.228,"endTime":610.258,"body":"X percentage rather than just like that"},{"startTime":610.258,"endTime":613.138,"body":"specific example, I could actually see"},{"startTime":610.258,"endTime":613.138,"body":"they're trying to use it for something."},{"startTime":613.288,"endTime":615.688,"body":"They're trying to decide whether they"},{"startTime":613.288,"endTime":615.688,"body":"should keep these two sites somehow."},{"startTime":615.838,"endTime":617.488,"body":"That is not , what I'm talking about."},{"startTime":617.568,"endTime":620.428,"body":"usually in this is they"},{"startTime":617.568,"endTime":620.428,"body":"have utilization targets."},{"startTime":620.748,"endTime":621.923,"body":"They say, we want our people to."},{"startTime":622.213,"endTime":623.843,"body":"Coding X percent of time."},{"startTime":624.043,"endTime":626.183,"body":"Call centers have metrics"},{"startTime":624.043,"endTime":626.183,"body":"like this big time."},{"startTime":626.333,"endTime":629.663,"body":"Basically we want people like sitting"},{"startTime":626.333,"endTime":629.663,"body":"in their seat doing their work."},{"startTime":629.813,"endTime":632.173,"body":"For X, they'll, whatever,"},{"startTime":629.813,"endTime":632.173,"body":"they'll list the thing."},{"startTime":632.173,"endTime":635.803,"body":"You know, a work center I was at"},{"startTime":632.173,"endTime":635.803,"body":"one time was 85 percent was the"},{"startTime":635.813,"endTime":637.093,"body":"developer's utilization number."},{"startTime":637.243,"endTime":640.353,"body":"actually doing code and meetings,"},{"startTime":637.243,"endTime":640.353,"body":"including the scrum meetings, believe"},{"startTime":640.353,"endTime":643.473,"body":"it or not, were counted outside of that"},{"startTime":640.353,"endTime":643.473,"body":"that wasn't counted as development."},{"startTime":643.623,"endTime":644.863,"body":"They're like, Oh, that's meeting time."},{"startTime":644.863,"endTime":645.693,"body":"That's not development time."},{"startTime":645.693,"endTime":650.063,"body":"But my pushback, my very long winded"},{"startTime":645.693,"endTime":650.063,"body":"pushback to this as a product manager"},{"startTime":650.063,"endTime":654.593,"body":"is you're swapping people from"},{"startTime":650.063,"endTime":654.593,"body":"task to task in order to seek that,"},{"startTime":654.613,"endTime":656.953,"body":"that, that holy number, whatever"},{"startTime":654.613,"endTime":656.953,"body":"that number you're trying to hit."},{"startTime":657.103,"endTime":659.573,"body":"is a waste of time and is"},{"startTime":657.103,"endTime":659.573,"body":"not generating any value."},{"startTime":659.723,"endTime":662.363,"body":"For sure, I mean it's a"},{"startTime":659.723,"endTime":662.363,"body":"paper exercise really, right?"},{"startTime":662.373,"endTime":663.053,"body":"At that point."},{"startTime":663.153,"endTime":663.293,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":663.313,"endTime":666.643,"body":"You know, those people in, in"},{"startTime":663.313,"endTime":666.643,"body":"their ivory towers I wanted to say"},{"startTime":666.683,"endTime":668.573,"body":"are looking for target measures."},{"startTime":668.653,"endTime":672.233,"body":"We've got our people at 85"},{"startTime":668.653,"endTime":672.233,"body":"percent utilized, right?"},{"startTime":672.533,"endTime":674.623,"body":"Or 87 percent utilized."},{"startTime":674.623,"endTime":677.573,"body":"We're doing better than we did last"},{"startTime":674.623,"endTime":677.573,"body":"quarter because it was only 85."},{"startTime":677.573,"endTime":679.993,"body":"It's like, That's just such a game, right?"},{"startTime":680.033,"endTime":682.373,"body":"It's just internal for"},{"startTime":680.033,"endTime":682.373,"body":"the first one thing."},{"startTime":682.423,"endTime":682.543,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":682.603,"endTime":685.743,"body":"Does your customer really"},{"startTime":682.603,"endTime":685.743,"body":"care that people are 85%?"},{"startTime":685.963,"endTime":686.653,"body":"it is a game."},{"startTime":686.763,"endTime":687.533,"body":"It is a game."},{"startTime":687.563,"endTime":689.943,"body":"Yeah, that's, that's why"},{"startTime":687.563,"endTime":689.943,"body":"like, this is a waste."},{"startTime":689.943,"endTime":690.323,"body":"It's a game."},{"startTime":690.523,"endTime":694.253,"body":"So we're, we're, we're quote"},{"startTime":690.523,"endTime":694.253,"body":"resource utilization, trying"},{"startTime":694.253,"endTime":697.583,"body":"to make sure everyone's doing"},{"startTime":694.253,"endTime":697.583,"body":"whatever work on these timesheets"},{"startTime":697.583,"endTime":698.823,"body":"that they self report on anyway."},{"startTime":699.173,"endTime":700.853,"body":"It's all done in the name of."},{"startTime":701.093,"endTime":702.303,"body":"Cost efficiency."},{"startTime":702.623,"endTime":708.633,"body":"They say, if we have these people that"},{"startTime":702.623,"endTime":708.633,"body":"are centralized and you only ask for"},{"startTime":708.633,"endTime":712.683,"body":"their services, when you need them,"},{"startTime":708.633,"endTime":712.683,"body":"assuming the most ideal scenario,"},{"startTime":712.683,"endTime":715.483,"body":"they're immediately available and you"},{"startTime":712.683,"endTime":715.483,"body":"ask for them and they can immediately"},{"startTime":715.483,"endTime":719.853,"body":"jump on your stuff because delay will"},{"startTime":715.483,"endTime":719.853,"body":"beat up the showing cost of delay."},{"startTime":720.053,"endTime":724.713,"body":"we'll really beat up this, the people that"},{"startTime":720.053,"endTime":724.713,"body":"are lobbying for this resource utilization"},{"startTime":724.923,"endTime":728.483,"body":"when you're a product and you can show"},{"startTime":724.923,"endTime":728.483,"body":"financial dollar impact of saying like,"},{"startTime":728.493,"endTime":731.683,"body":"every time I asked for a QA person,"},{"startTime":728.493,"endTime":731.683,"body":"every time my developers go through the"},{"startTime":731.683,"endTime":734.183,"body":"process of getting all this code done,"},{"startTime":731.683,"endTime":734.183,"body":"talking to customers, figuring out what"},{"startTime":734.183,"endTime":739.758,"body":"they want, now I've got to ask for a QA"},{"startTime":734.183,"endTime":739.758,"body":"time and now I've got to wait or UI UX"},{"startTime":739.758,"endTime":741.763,"body":"DevOps for deployments is a great one."},{"startTime":741.793,"endTime":744.928,"body":"You know, every time we hit submit"},{"startTime":741.793,"endTime":744.928,"body":"we are waiting an average of two"},{"startTime":744.928,"endTime":746.228,"body":"days to get our build out there."},{"startTime":746.378,"endTime":750.688,"body":"Our team should be able to click that"},{"startTime":746.378,"endTime":750.688,"body":"button it's all done under the banner"},{"startTime":750.858,"endTime":757.278,"body":"that somehow it may be more cost efficient"},{"startTime":750.858,"endTime":757.278,"body":"to centralize all these resources."},{"startTime":757.428,"endTime":762.098,"body":"when in actuality, I've never seen"},{"startTime":757.428,"endTime":762.098,"body":"anyone does this, takes people off of a"},{"startTime":762.098,"endTime":764.058,"body":"team and puts them in the ivory tower."},{"startTime":764.348,"endTime":767.438,"body":"I've never seen them have"},{"startTime":764.348,"endTime":767.438,"body":"to lobby back to the teams."},{"startTime":767.588,"endTime":769.858,"body":"Why they should continue that practice."},{"startTime":770.158,"endTime":773.608,"body":"I've only ever seen them trying to"},{"startTime":770.158,"endTime":773.608,"body":"take people away from the team to"},{"startTime":773.608,"endTime":775.598,"body":"fund their ivory tower positions."},{"startTime":775.688,"endTime":775.948,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":776.098,"endTime":780.408,"body":"What I have seen is when teams have"},{"startTime":776.098,"endTime":780.408,"body":"complained we're waiting to two days on"},{"startTime":780.408,"endTime":782.678,"body":"average for DevOps, for example, right."},{"startTime":782.948,"endTime":784.478,"body":"Just to use that as an example."},{"startTime":784.628,"endTime":789.118,"body":"So the reaction from those people that"},{"startTime":784.628,"endTime":789.118,"body":"are resource managers has been to take"},{"startTime":789.118,"endTime":793.658,"body":"somebody off a project that they're"},{"startTime":789.118,"endTime":793.658,"body":"already on and put them on yours"},{"startTime":793.928,"endTime":796.938,"body":"regardless of are they the right fit, etc."},{"startTime":796.998,"endTime":799.398,"body":"Now the other project's"},{"startTime":796.998,"endTime":799.398,"body":"suffering too, by the way, right?"},{"startTime":799.398,"endTime":802.988,"body":"So it's the squeaky voice syndrome"},{"startTime":799.398,"endTime":802.988,"body":"and they keep doing that just so"},{"startTime":802.988,"endTime":806.088,"body":"that you whittle down that two"},{"startTime":802.988,"endTime":806.088,"body":"day to a day and they say, look,"},{"startTime":806.098,"endTime":807.898,"body":"we've got a 50 percent improvement."},{"startTime":808.048,"endTime":809.228,"body":"You know, it used to be two days."},{"startTime":809.228,"endTime":811.338,"body":"It's only one and we're striving to zero."},{"startTime":811.398,"endTime":814.408,"body":"And unfortunately the teams I"},{"startTime":811.398,"endTime":814.408,"body":"really know it not any better off."},{"startTime":814.448,"endTime":816.298,"body":"They just get a warm body with a pulse."},{"startTime":816.448,"endTime":819.558,"body":"They'll say, but Ohm, what, what"},{"startTime":816.448,"endTime":819.558,"body":"if you, what if we dedicate this"},{"startTime":819.558,"endTime":822.438,"body":"person to your team and you can't"},{"startTime":819.558,"endTime":822.438,"body":"use them 100 percent of the time?"},{"startTime":822.588,"endTime":823.288,"body":"what then?"},{"startTime":823.538,"endTime":825.698,"body":"You'll have them sitting around"},{"startTime":823.538,"endTime":825.698,"body":"and we'll, we'll pay them a full"},{"startTime":825.698,"endTime":827.973,"body":"time job, even though they're"},{"startTime":825.698,"endTime":827.973,"body":"only working 30 hours a day."},{"startTime":827.973,"endTime":829.783,"body":"28, 30 hours a week."},{"startTime":829.793,"endTime":831.633,"body":"Cause you can't utilize them full time."},{"startTime":831.783,"endTime":832.073,"body":"Thirty."},{"startTime":832.073,"endTime":836.153,"body":"I'd be very happy with, listen, if you"},{"startTime":832.073,"endTime":836.153,"body":"do the math, I mean, it makes sense for"},{"startTime":836.153,"endTime":840.863,"body":"them to work on that team only at that"},{"startTime":836.153,"endTime":840.863,"body":"utilization rate It makes sense to me"},{"startTime":840.863,"endTime":845.543,"body":"because the switching costs alone will"},{"startTime":840.863,"endTime":845.543,"body":"take up the rest of the time to 40 easily."},{"startTime":845.863,"endTime":847.643,"body":"Oh, but switching costs"},{"startTime":845.863,"endTime":847.643,"body":"are not on their budget."},{"startTime":847.653,"endTime":848.373,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":848.393,"endTime":849.793,"body":"They're not a GL item either."},{"startTime":849.833,"endTime":851.103,"body":"They're not tracking that stuff."},{"startTime":851.103,"endTime":851.253,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":851.403,"endTime":852.493,"body":"Good grief, right?"},{"startTime":852.573,"endTime":856.393,"body":"Also, like I thought I'd point out now"},{"startTime":852.573,"endTime":856.393,"body":"we're talking about the cost efficiency."},{"startTime":856.443,"endTime":859.413,"body":"I guess I'm going to keep using,"},{"startTime":856.443,"endTime":859.413,"body":"going back to the banner example of"},{"startTime":859.423,"endTime":862.393,"body":"QA on the podcast, because again,"},{"startTime":859.423,"endTime":862.393,"body":"that's, that's where a lot of these"},{"startTime":862.423,"endTime":864.233,"body":"I've interacted with in my career."},{"startTime":864.383,"endTime":868.353,"body":"Boy, if I had a nickel for every time"},{"startTime":864.383,"endTime":868.353,"body":"I've heard some, some real ridiculous"},{"startTime":868.353,"endTime":872.723,"body":"reasoning, some real breakdance reasoning"},{"startTime":868.353,"endTime":872.723,"body":"to try to avoid hiring people if we"},{"startTime":872.793,"endTime":877.863,"body":"stagger team a and team B sprints to"},{"startTime":872.793,"endTime":877.863,"body":"where when team B is kicking off a"},{"startTime":877.863,"endTime":881.973,"body":"new sprint, team a is ending, we can"},{"startTime":877.863,"endTime":881.973,"body":"have the same QA person on both teams"},{"startTime":881.973,"endTime":884.333,"body":"because QA people just sit around"},{"startTime":881.973,"endTime":884.333,"body":"the beginning of the sprint, right?"},{"startTime":884.333,"endTime":885.913,"body":"They don't have anything to"},{"startTime":884.333,"endTime":885.913,"body":"test while development works."},{"startTime":886.063,"endTime":891.263,"body":"these are more teams cost efficiency"},{"startTime":886.063,"endTime":891.263,"body":"that say QA sits around until developers"},{"startTime":891.263,"endTime":895.323,"body":"got something to chuck over the wall at"},{"startTime":891.263,"endTime":895.323,"body":"them few days into the sprint yeah, you"},{"startTime":895.323,"endTime":897.573,"body":"are really not doing that agile at all."},{"startTime":897.573,"endTime":900.903,"body":"Just the mental back flips to"},{"startTime":897.573,"endTime":900.903,"body":"get to this cost efficiency."},{"startTime":901.053,"endTime":903.758,"body":"It's, this cost efficiency category"},{"startTime":901.053,"endTime":903.758,"body":"thinking , that you know best."},{"startTime":904.853,"endTime":907.563,"body":"Other than the people that are in"},{"startTime":904.853,"endTime":907.563,"body":"the code, the people talking to"},{"startTime":907.563,"endTime":912.513,"body":"customers, the people generating and"},{"startTime":907.563,"endTime":912.513,"body":"finding their way to value, but you"},{"startTime":912.523,"endTime":916.363,"body":"know, better and let you handle it"},{"startTime":912.523,"endTime":916.363,"body":"somebody who doesn't talk to customers."},{"startTime":916.513,"endTime":918.893,"body":"Who doesn't, maybe doesn't"},{"startTime":916.513,"endTime":918.893,"body":"know the business domain wow."},{"startTime":918.923,"endTime":922.343,"body":"Like the arrogance in this category is"},{"startTime":918.923,"endTime":922.343,"body":"I almost can't even say here anymore."},{"startTime":922.343,"endTime":926.543,"body":"It might be time to move on in that case"},{"startTime":922.343,"endTime":926.543,"body":"so we talked about resource utilization,"},{"startTime":926.693,"endTime":927.923,"body":"and we talked about cost efficiency"},{"startTime":927.923,"endTime":930.583,"body":"It's just resource utilization"},{"startTime":927.923,"endTime":930.583,"body":"using different terms."},{"startTime":930.883,"endTime":935.673,"body":"It actually, I think it's research"},{"startTime":930.883,"endTime":935.673,"body":"utilization using a more Powerful weapon"},{"startTime":935.823,"endTime":940.213,"body":"which is the finances because you you"},{"startTime":935.823,"endTime":940.213,"body":"will get your way, you know If you control"},{"startTime":940.213,"endTime":943.993,"body":"the finances in this It's also looking"},{"startTime":940.213,"endTime":943.993,"body":"at just one side of it though, isn't it?"},{"startTime":943.993,"endTime":944.263,"body":"Really?"},{"startTime":944.413,"endTime":947.213,"body":"So we'll, we'll explore that"},{"startTime":944.413,"endTime":947.213,"body":"maybe in another podcast."},{"startTime":947.523,"endTime":952.123,"body":"the other one where I've seen people"},{"startTime":947.523,"endTime":952.123,"body":"lose for is just standardization."},{"startTime":952.273,"endTime":953.813,"body":"we got to move all the"},{"startTime":952.273,"endTime":953.813,"body":"QA people over here."},{"startTime":953.813,"endTime":957.812,"body":"that way we make sure we're All"},{"startTime":953.813,"endTime":957.812,"body":"the QA practices are or we got to"},{"startTime":957.822,"endTime":962.072,"body":"have all the backend engineers on"},{"startTime":957.822,"endTime":962.072,"body":"one team because we gotta make sure"},{"startTime":962.072,"endTime":964.722,"body":"that all of our, API engineers or"},{"startTime":962.072,"endTime":964.722,"body":"whatever your backend is, right."},{"startTime":964.972,"endTime":967.062,"body":"We gotta make sure that, there's"},{"startTime":964.972,"endTime":967.062,"body":"some kind of standardization with"},{"startTime":967.062,"endTime":970.972,"body":"all of our APIs and all of our API"},{"startTime":967.062,"endTime":970.972,"body":"development, Java development, C Plus"},{"startTime":971.102,"endTime":972.842,"body":"development dot net development, right?"},{"startTime":973.072,"endTime":975.512,"body":"We gotta make sure all of our"},{"startTime":973.072,"endTime":975.512,"body":"dot net developers we're going"},{"startTime":975.512,"endTime":976.692,"body":"to hold each other accountable."},{"startTime":976.702,"endTime":979.522,"body":"We'll all be on one team and"},{"startTime":976.702,"endTime":979.522,"body":"you can ask them to make changes"},{"startTime":979.522,"endTime":980.612,"body":"to the back end or whatever."},{"startTime":980.832,"endTime":981.952,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I think you're right."},{"startTime":982.252,"endTime":984.052,"body":"So I just want to be"},{"startTime":982.252,"endTime":984.052,"body":"careful with this one."},{"startTime":984.102,"endTime":984.902,"body":"Explore a little bit."},{"startTime":985.062,"endTime":987.392,"body":"There's nothing wrong"},{"startTime":985.062,"endTime":987.392,"body":"with having API standards."},{"startTime":987.452,"endTime":988.782,"body":"That's not what we're"},{"startTime":987.452,"endTime":988.782,"body":"talking about here, right?"},{"startTime":988.782,"endTime":992.862,"body":"We're talking about getting all"},{"startTime":988.782,"endTime":992.862,"body":"those API developers in a single"},{"startTime":992.862,"endTime":994.932,"body":"team as a shared services team."},{"startTime":995.172,"endTime":997.342,"body":"Using that model is what"},{"startTime":995.172,"endTime":997.342,"body":"we're talking about here."},{"startTime":997.492,"endTime":1001.122,"body":"So if they weren't in that model, if"},{"startTime":997.492,"endTime":1001.122,"body":"they were in any other model, they could"},{"startTime":1001.122,"endTime":1005.732,"body":"still develop their APIs according to a"},{"startTime":1001.122,"endTime":1005.732,"body":"corporate standard, let's say, because"},{"startTime":1005.772,"endTime":1007.812,"body":"the standard is their guide, right?"},{"startTime":1008.142,"endTime":1008.802,"body":"That's okay."},{"startTime":1008.812,"endTime":1011.322,"body":"You could have developers on"},{"startTime":1008.812,"endTime":1011.322,"body":"different teams still using"},{"startTime":1011.322,"endTime":1012.377,"body":"the same standard, right?"},{"startTime":1012.527,"endTime":1016.607,"body":"we're talking about really, it's"},{"startTime":1012.527,"endTime":1016.607,"body":"again, how organizationally structured."},{"startTime":1016.757,"endTime":1020.147,"body":"These centralized teams are"},{"startTime":1016.757,"endTime":1020.147,"body":"and yeah, I mean, the argument"},{"startTime":1020.157,"endTime":1021.757,"body":"is we need to standardize."},{"startTime":1021.907,"endTime":1024.597,"body":"I've seen that even in"},{"startTime":1021.907,"endTime":1024.597,"body":"non development areas."},{"startTime":1024.667,"endTime":1026.077,"body":"PMO is a perfect example."},{"startTime":1026.247,"endTime":1028.927,"body":"Standardize all project"},{"startTime":1026.247,"endTime":1028.927,"body":"management practices, right?"},{"startTime":1029.007,"endTime":1033.447,"body":"And the PMO will give you A folder"},{"startTime":1029.007,"endTime":1033.447,"body":"to say, welcome aboard, right?"},{"startTime":1033.467,"endTime":1034.597,"body":"This is your new project."},{"startTime":1034.657,"endTime":1036.407,"body":"Everything you need to know"},{"startTime":1034.657,"endTime":1036.407,"body":"about the project and how to"},{"startTime":1036.417,"endTime":1037.667,"body":"deliver it is in this folder."},{"startTime":1037.827,"endTime":1039.777,"body":"every project's unique says PMI."},{"startTime":1039.927,"endTime":1043.657,"body":"And it's probably true, So how are"},{"startTime":1039.927,"endTime":1043.657,"body":"you going to encapsulate the rules"},{"startTime":1043.717,"endTime":1047.577,"body":"of any given project into a standard"},{"startTime":1043.717,"endTime":1047.577,"body":"folder, but that's what they do."},{"startTime":1047.587,"endTime":1050.787,"body":"standardization also allows"},{"startTime":1047.587,"endTime":1050.787,"body":"them to do something else, which"},{"startTime":1050.937,"endTime":1052.417,"body":"give them a level of control."},{"startTime":1052.567,"endTime":1053.207,"body":"Kind of right."},{"startTime":1053.267,"endTime":1055.847,"body":"Centralization is another word, I think."},{"startTime":1055.937,"endTime":1058.877,"body":"when you say control, I heard"},{"startTime":1055.937,"endTime":1058.877,"body":"enforcement when you said"},{"startTime":1059.207,"endTime":1061.017,"body":"centralization, I heard governance."},{"startTime":1061.107,"endTime":1063.817,"body":"These are all dressy words"},{"startTime":1061.107,"endTime":1063.817,"body":"to mean the same thing."},{"startTime":1063.967,"endTime":1064.437,"body":"Governance."},{"startTime":1064.507,"endTime":1066.967,"body":"It means someone taking"},{"startTime":1064.507,"endTime":1066.967,"body":"control of yours, your things."},{"startTime":1067.017,"endTime":1068.547,"body":"I heard an interesting take on governance."},{"startTime":1068.547,"endTime":1071.297,"body":"I think it was in a book I've been"},{"startTime":1068.547,"endTime":1071.297,"body":"reading reinventing organizations."},{"startTime":1071.297,"endTime":1073.707,"body":"I think that's the book"},{"startTime":1071.297,"endTime":1073.707,"body":"reinventing organizations."},{"startTime":1073.902,"endTime":1077.622,"body":"By Arthur Y, Yeung and Dave Ulrich."},{"startTime":1077.822,"endTime":1078.392,"body":"I didn't like it."},{"startTime":1078.542,"endTime":1080.662,"body":"but one of the things that"},{"startTime":1078.542,"endTime":1080.662,"body":"they do talk about in the book"},{"startTime":1080.662,"endTime":1082.132,"body":"was governance and they say."},{"startTime":1082.322,"endTime":1085.092,"body":"governance should be, oh, I'm"},{"startTime":1082.322,"endTime":1085.092,"body":"going to screw up how they"},{"startTime":1085.092,"endTime":1086.152,"body":"worded it very well in the book."},{"startTime":1086.472,"endTime":1092.272,"body":"It was governance should be having"},{"startTime":1086.472,"endTime":1092.272,"body":"your governance body decide who can"},{"startTime":1092.272,"endTime":1095.702,"body":"make what decisions and then empowering"},{"startTime":1092.272,"endTime":1095.702,"body":"those people to make those decisions."},{"startTime":1095.712,"endTime":1098.152,"body":"So basically it's handing out"},{"startTime":1095.712,"endTime":1098.152,"body":"decision making responsibilities."},{"startTime":1098.302,"endTime":1100.252,"body":"or empowerment, I guess"},{"startTime":1098.302,"endTime":1100.252,"body":"to different people."},{"startTime":1100.252,"endTime":1102.852,"body":"I was like, wow, that's an interesting"},{"startTime":1100.252,"endTime":1102.852,"body":"way to view governance which I've"},{"startTime":1102.852,"endTime":1105.182,"body":"never seen anyone do that, but it's"},{"startTime":1102.852,"endTime":1105.182,"body":"an interesting way to view governance."},{"startTime":1105.332,"endTime":1106.872,"body":"And maybe someone should do that."},{"startTime":1107.022,"endTime":1108.002,"body":"I like the idea."},{"startTime":1108.032,"endTime":1110.692,"body":"Decentralizing decision making"},{"startTime":1108.032,"endTime":1110.692,"body":"to the lowest level possible."},{"startTime":1110.702,"endTime":1112.312,"body":"That's basically what"},{"startTime":1110.702,"endTime":1112.312,"body":"the book had outlined."},{"startTime":1112.312,"endTime":1116.342,"body":"I mean, governance to me always has been"},{"startTime":1112.312,"endTime":1116.342,"body":"you go to the Emerald City and you sit"},{"startTime":1116.342,"endTime":1119.492,"body":"in front of the wizard and he tells you"},{"startTime":1116.342,"endTime":1119.492,"body":"no, and then you leave and you go sulk."},{"startTime":1119.642,"endTime":1120.902,"body":"Like that, that's been governed."},{"startTime":1121.132,"endTime":1124.112,"body":"It's a governance panel you have to"},{"startTime":1121.132,"endTime":1124.112,"body":"go in front of to get permission."},{"startTime":1124.352,"endTime":1126.902,"body":"Yeah, they slap your hand or do"},{"startTime":1124.352,"endTime":1126.902,"body":"whatever, ask you to do a million things."},{"startTime":1127.202,"endTime":1130.412,"body":"where you were going with, the"},{"startTime":1127.202,"endTime":1130.412,"body":"centralization, I thought of"},{"startTime":1130.412,"endTime":1133.122,"body":"some cases when you were talking"},{"startTime":1130.412,"endTime":1133.122,"body":"that I wanted to bring up here."},{"startTime":1133.122,"endTime":1133.862,"body":"Cause they're great."},{"startTime":1134.152,"endTime":1137.792,"body":"Cause I actually do see them get"},{"startTime":1134.152,"endTime":1137.792,"body":"their way by centralizing these"},{"startTime":1137.802,"endTime":1139.082,"body":"groups and pulling them off of teams."},{"startTime":1139.392,"endTime":1140.042,"body":"DevOps."},{"startTime":1140.192,"endTime":1142.942,"body":"I see a lot of, they pull the DevOps"},{"startTime":1140.192,"endTime":1142.942,"body":"engineers off and they centralize them"},{"startTime":1142.942,"endTime":1145.302,"body":"in one DevOps group security specialists."},{"startTime":1145.392,"endTime":1148.812,"body":"I see them doing that with security"},{"startTime":1145.392,"endTime":1148.812,"body":"specialists and compliance is another one."},{"startTime":1148.892,"endTime":1150.122,"body":"Compliance is a great one."},{"startTime":1150.322,"endTime":1154.092,"body":"the cloud infrastructure people, like"},{"startTime":1150.322,"endTime":1154.092,"body":"they used to be networking people,"},{"startTime":1154.092,"endTime":1155.832,"body":"but yeah, they pull those people off."},{"startTime":1155.862,"endTime":1160.902,"body":"And then, architects, sometimes architects"},{"startTime":1155.862,"endTime":1160.902,"body":"50, 50, sometimes I see architects"},{"startTime":1161.002,"endTime":1164.032,"body":"all sit in the ivory tower and they're"},{"startTime":1161.002,"endTime":1164.032,"body":"protected from having to do actual work."},{"startTime":1164.392,"endTime":1167.672,"body":"And then the other people that I've"},{"startTime":1164.392,"endTime":1167.672,"body":"seen get scooped into this is believe"},{"startTime":1167.672,"endTime":1170.832,"body":"it or not, business analysts, I've"},{"startTime":1167.672,"endTime":1170.832,"body":"seen business analysts where that, like"},{"startTime":1171.002,"endTime":1174.372,"body":"they take them from off all from, from"},{"startTime":1171.002,"endTime":1174.372,"body":"the teams or from the product people"},{"startTime":1174.372,"endTime":1175.652,"body":"and they put them in the central group."},{"startTime":1175.922,"endTime":1178.212,"body":"And then if you need a business"},{"startTime":1175.922,"endTime":1178.212,"body":"analyst, you have to request that."},{"startTime":1178.362,"endTime":1181.462,"body":"The project manager has to request"},{"startTime":1178.362,"endTime":1181.462,"body":"a business analyst and then they"},{"startTime":1181.462,"endTime":1184.372,"body":"get the business from the business"},{"startTime":1181.462,"endTime":1184.372,"body":"analyst organization assigned to"},{"startTime":1184.372,"endTime":1188.842,"body":"their project for the entirety of the"},{"startTime":1184.372,"endTime":1188.842,"body":"quote requirements phase and then the"},{"startTime":1188.842,"endTime":1191.322,"body":"business analyst goes back to the pool"},{"startTime":1188.842,"endTime":1191.322,"body":"to some other project or whatever."},{"startTime":1191.332,"endTime":1196.792,"body":"Yeah, I've seen that fairly often in the"},{"startTime":1191.332,"endTime":1196.792,"body":"CMMI waterfall model where you get the"},{"startTime":1196.792,"endTime":1200.702,"body":"business analyst come in the first thing"},{"startTime":1196.792,"endTime":1200.702,"body":"they do is document the as is, and then"},{"startTime":1200.702,"endTime":1203.062,"body":"they document the to be, I guess, right?"},{"startTime":1203.342,"endTime":1208.192,"body":"And then they leave the requirements"},{"startTime":1203.342,"endTime":1208.192,"body":"PRDs for developer teams to execute on."},{"startTime":1208.342,"endTime":1209.832,"body":"So yeah, definitely have seen that."},{"startTime":1210.112,"endTime":1213.552,"body":"the thinking there those people"},{"startTime":1210.112,"endTime":1213.552,"body":"can work with their tight"},{"startTime":1213.562,"endTime":1214.612,"body":"group of business analysts."},{"startTime":1214.762,"endTime":1218.392,"body":"To work through standards and as they"},{"startTime":1214.762,"endTime":1218.392,"body":"go from project to project, they bring"},{"startTime":1218.392,"endTime":1219.782,"body":"those learnings back to the team."},{"startTime":1219.932,"endTime":1221.852,"body":"And they say, okay, my"},{"startTime":1219.932,"endTime":1221.852,"body":"project had these things."},{"startTime":1221.852,"endTime":1223.772,"body":"Here's my PRD, here's my"},{"startTime":1221.852,"endTime":1223.772,"body":"learnings, or whatever."},{"startTime":1223.832,"endTime":1225.722,"body":"Here's the things I had to"},{"startTime":1223.832,"endTime":1225.722,"body":"change and the structure, maybe"},{"startTime":1225.727,"endTime":1226.682,"body":"we should standardize that."},{"startTime":1226.737,"endTime":1230.547,"body":"And they'll standardize the template"},{"startTime":1226.737,"endTime":1230.547,"body":"that all projects have to go through now."},{"startTime":1230.597,"endTime":1235.047,"body":"that's how they see standardization,"},{"startTime":1230.597,"endTime":1235.047,"body":"benefiting the BA organization,"},{"startTime":1235.047,"endTime":1236.547,"body":"which benefits all the projects."},{"startTime":1236.697,"endTime":1237.237,"body":"And now."},{"startTime":1237.387,"endTime":1240.657,"body":"Again, like put my product"},{"startTime":1237.387,"endTime":1240.657,"body":"management hat back on."},{"startTime":1240.847,"endTime":1245.737,"body":"I would pay real money to have a BA"},{"startTime":1240.847,"endTime":1245.737,"body":"that could work with me to do BA things."},{"startTime":1245.737,"endTime":1247.717,"body":"I think the BA skillset"},{"startTime":1245.737,"endTime":1247.717,"body":"is completely underrated."},{"startTime":1247.917,"endTime":1250.837,"body":"I would love to have a BA just"},{"startTime":1247.917,"endTime":1250.837,"body":"setting up interviews, talking"},{"startTime":1250.837,"endTime":1253.367,"body":"to people all the time, bringing"},{"startTime":1250.837,"endTime":1253.367,"body":"me a constant steady stream."},{"startTime":1253.517,"endTime":1257.187,"body":"Of user interviews and then kind"},{"startTime":1253.517,"endTime":1257.187,"body":"of documenting and being a neutral"},{"startTime":1257.187,"endTime":1258.797,"body":"observer, that'd be fantastic."},{"startTime":1258.947,"endTime":1260.217,"body":"My company would never pay for that."},{"startTime":1260.247,"endTime":1263.457,"body":"And then very few companies I've ever been"},{"startTime":1260.247,"endTime":1263.457,"body":"at would ever pay for something like that."},{"startTime":1263.607,"endTime":1267.117,"body":"the one or two organizations I've been at"},{"startTime":1263.607,"endTime":1267.117,"body":"that have been lucky enough to have BAs,"},{"startTime":1267.267,"endTime":1271.637,"body":"they've been controlled in this sort of"},{"startTime":1267.267,"endTime":1271.637,"body":"over there kind of model that I described."},{"startTime":1271.647,"endTime":1272.697,"body":"Sadly, that's true."},{"startTime":1272.697,"endTime":1276.647,"body":"And unfortunately, what that begets is the"},{"startTime":1272.697,"endTime":1276.647,"body":"behavior where they say, well, if that's"},{"startTime":1276.647,"endTime":1280.967,"body":"how BAs work, that's how maybe product"},{"startTime":1276.647,"endTime":1280.967,"body":"owners should work or product managers."},{"startTime":1281.117,"endTime":1285.327,"body":"So we get these org structures now"},{"startTime":1281.117,"endTime":1285.327,"body":"where there's a pool of product people"},{"startTime":1285.657,"endTime":1287.797,"body":"to be dished out to various teams."},{"startTime":1288.147,"endTime":1289.587,"body":"And I think it's extremely dangerous."},{"startTime":1289.607,"endTime":1293.327,"body":"I mean, I think it's dangerous enough"},{"startTime":1289.607,"endTime":1293.327,"body":"at the BA level too, because there's"},{"startTime":1293.367,"endTime":1297.797,"body":"no substitute for a person having"},{"startTime":1293.367,"endTime":1297.797,"body":"continuity speaking with a customer"},{"startTime":1297.947,"endTime":1299.737,"body":"throughout the course of the project."},{"startTime":1300.057,"endTime":1302.997,"body":"If you're going to pull that person out"},{"startTime":1300.057,"endTime":1302.997,"body":"and put somebody else in, who's maybe"},{"startTime":1302.997,"endTime":1306.977,"body":"equally as, qualified, if not more, it"},{"startTime":1302.997,"endTime":1306.977,"body":"doesn't help because you've lost the"},{"startTime":1307.007,"endTime":1310.877,"body":"continuity of thought you've lost the, the"},{"startTime":1307.007,"endTime":1310.877,"body":"what's really important to the customer."},{"startTime":1311.027,"endTime":1311.777,"body":"You've lost all of that."},{"startTime":1311.777,"endTime":1315.297,"body":"We haven't even brought up the Tuckman"},{"startTime":1311.777,"endTime":1315.297,"body":"stages where you just set your team back."},{"startTime":1315.307,"endTime":1318.987,"body":"you took the BA who could answer all"},{"startTime":1315.307,"endTime":1318.987,"body":"those customer questions and you just"},{"startTime":1318.987,"endTime":1320.427,"body":"set your development team back again."},{"startTime":1320.447,"endTime":1321.317,"body":"Like, why would you do that?"},{"startTime":1321.317,"endTime":1323.277,"body":"Oh, well now we have"},{"startTime":1321.317,"endTime":1323.277,"body":"to get a different BA."},{"startTime":1323.287,"endTime":1325.947,"body":"If the project's continuing,"},{"startTime":1323.287,"endTime":1325.947,"body":"the customer renewed the"},{"startTime":1325.947,"endTime":1326.867,"body":"contract or something like that."},{"startTime":1326.867,"endTime":1328.297,"body":"Now they want more development work."},{"startTime":1328.447,"endTime":1330.137,"body":"Now, are we going to get the same BA?"},{"startTime":1330.177,"endTime":1331.107,"body":"Maybe, maybe not."},{"startTime":1331.117,"endTime":1332.257,"body":"Now you get a different BA."},{"startTime":1332.407,"endTime":1334.697,"body":"Theoretically, maybe they're"},{"startTime":1332.407,"endTime":1334.697,"body":"writing to the same template,"},{"startTime":1334.697,"endTime":1335.787,"body":"but they're not the same person."},{"startTime":1335.837,"endTime":1338.967,"body":"I understand you're saying, look,"},{"startTime":1335.837,"endTime":1338.967,"body":"if there's standardization, it"},{"startTime":1338.967,"endTime":1341.907,"body":"shouldn't matter which BA you get,"},{"startTime":1338.967,"endTime":1341.907,"body":"but in the real world, we know"},{"startTime":1341.907,"endTime":1344.257,"body":"yes, it does Oh, most definitely"},{"startTime":1344.407,"endTime":1346.417,"body":"if it's, if it's Java,"},{"startTime":1344.407,"endTime":1346.417,"body":"what does it matter?"},{"startTime":1346.417,"endTime":1347.797,"body":"What developer you get to code in?"},{"startTime":1347.817,"endTime":1351.087,"body":"If it's whatever language level of"},{"startTime":1347.817,"endTime":1351.087,"body":"abstraction, you take it to everything's"},{"startTime":1351.087,"endTime":1352.327,"body":"the zero and a one at the end of the day."},{"startTime":1352.537,"endTime":1353.797,"body":"No, listen, I've seen the worst."},{"startTime":1353.947,"endTime":1359.627,"body":"Impact of this on a large project where"},{"startTime":1353.947,"endTime":1359.627,"body":"the BA role was swapped out multiple"},{"startTime":1359.627,"endTime":1365.067,"body":"times Different people come in so after"},{"startTime":1359.627,"endTime":1365.067,"body":"the project was almost over That BA who"},{"startTime":1365.087,"endTime":1369.707,"body":"stayed with the team, the implementation"},{"startTime":1365.087,"endTime":1369.707,"body":"team or teams until go live, they"},{"startTime":1369.707,"endTime":1373.367,"body":"were pulled out, at a time when the"},{"startTime":1369.707,"endTime":1373.367,"body":"customer was all the more willing to"},{"startTime":1373.367,"endTime":1375.207,"body":"tell you what else they want, right?"},{"startTime":1375.257,"endTime":1379.067,"body":"And this is a waterfall project"},{"startTime":1375.257,"endTime":1379.067,"body":"type of waterfall naming like a"},{"startTime":1379.127,"endTime":1380.597,"body":"Agile name only type of project."},{"startTime":1380.747,"endTime":1385.537,"body":"But we did receive enhancements"},{"startTime":1380.747,"endTime":1385.537,"body":"that the customer said they wanted."},{"startTime":1385.607,"endTime":1388.427,"body":"somebody needs to do the due"},{"startTime":1385.607,"endTime":1388.427,"body":"diligence and capture those."},{"startTime":1388.577,"endTime":1391.467,"body":"Somebody needs to then have meetings"},{"startTime":1388.577,"endTime":1391.467,"body":"with architects to make sure they're"},{"startTime":1391.467,"endTime":1393.327,"body":"even feasible, doable, etcetera."},{"startTime":1393.387,"endTime":1394.327,"body":"Are they feasible?"},{"startTime":1394.597,"endTime":1395.427,"body":"Are they profitable?"},{"startTime":1395.577,"endTime":1396.367,"body":"Didn't have that B."},{"startTime":1396.367,"endTime":1396.447,"body":"A."},{"startTime":1396.447,"endTime":1396.817,"body":"In there."},{"startTime":1396.997,"endTime":1397.557,"body":"So different B."},{"startTime":1397.557,"endTime":1397.637,"body":"A."},{"startTime":1397.637,"endTime":1402.167,"body":"Came in and decided no, unless they've got"},{"startTime":1397.637,"endTime":1402.167,"body":"money, we're not doing any of this, right?"},{"startTime":1402.207,"endTime":1407.217,"body":"And the customer got extremely ticked"},{"startTime":1402.207,"endTime":1407.217,"body":"off to the point where they called the C."},{"startTime":1407.217,"endTime":1407.387,"body":"E."},{"startTime":1407.387,"endTime":1407.737,"body":"O."},{"startTime":1407.747,"endTime":1409.597,"body":"And said, Why is this person?"},{"startTime":1409.597,"endTime":1410.987,"body":"I know they're still with your company."},{"startTime":1411.267,"endTime":1414.107,"body":"Why did, why was that"},{"startTime":1411.267,"endTime":1414.107,"body":"person removed from my team?"},{"startTime":1414.257,"endTime":1415.687,"body":"The CEO did what CEOs do."},{"startTime":1415.737,"endTime":1416.467,"body":"Oh crap."},{"startTime":1416.487,"endTime":1417.047,"body":"I didn't know that."},{"startTime":1417.047,"endTime":1417.337,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":1417.337,"endTime":1418.137,"body":"I'll fix that right now."},{"startTime":1418.287,"endTime":1422.207,"body":"The old person comes back and then it took"},{"startTime":1418.287,"endTime":1422.207,"body":"some time to smooth the relations over."},{"startTime":1422.357,"endTime":1424.267,"body":"It worked out okay in that scenario."},{"startTime":1424.307,"endTime":1425.057,"body":"Doesn't always."},{"startTime":1425.207,"endTime":1428.097,"body":"So I just want to highlight"},{"startTime":1425.207,"endTime":1428.097,"body":"through that example the fact"},{"startTime":1428.107,"endTime":1431.447,"body":"that this has repercussions"},{"startTime":1428.107,"endTime":1431.447,"body":"beyond what your team can see."},{"startTime":1431.647,"endTime":1434.667,"body":"And imagine what happens if"},{"startTime":1431.647,"endTime":1434.667,"body":"that's a PO or a product manager."},{"startTime":1434.817,"endTime":1435.547,"body":"It's a no brainer."},{"startTime":1435.547,"endTime":1436.997,"body":"It should be a no brainer."},{"startTime":1437.037,"endTime":1438.577,"body":"I could, I could totally see it."},{"startTime":1438.607,"endTime":1441.887,"body":"Again, I told stories on the podcast"},{"startTime":1438.607,"endTime":1441.887,"body":"before about specific people that"},{"startTime":1441.887,"endTime":1445.317,"body":"when you call support, you got this"},{"startTime":1441.887,"endTime":1445.317,"body":"engineer as your final explanation."},{"startTime":1445.317,"endTime":1447.517,"body":"And it was the same"},{"startTime":1445.317,"endTime":1447.517,"body":"person for your customer."},{"startTime":1447.517,"endTime":1450.057,"body":"They were assigned to only"},{"startTime":1447.517,"endTime":1450.057,"body":"a select group of customers."},{"startTime":1450.077,"endTime":1452.757,"body":"I've seen entire development"},{"startTime":1450.077,"endTime":1452.757,"body":"teams roll off of a project."},{"startTime":1452.757,"endTime":1454.937,"body":"you'd have the main development time"},{"startTime":1452.757,"endTime":1454.937,"body":"span then you have the hyper care"},{"startTime":1454.937,"endTime":1457.987,"body":"period and then there's no support if"},{"startTime":1454.937,"endTime":1457.987,"body":"you didn't extend the contract when"},{"startTime":1457.987,"endTime":1459.637,"body":"the main development team rolled off."},{"startTime":1459.787,"endTime":1462.767,"body":"And then the hypercare team"},{"startTime":1459.787,"endTime":1462.767,"body":"was, which may not be include"},{"startTime":1462.777,"endTime":1463.927,"body":"anyone from the original team."},{"startTime":1463.937,"endTime":1466.107,"body":"It may be some new, it's"},{"startTime":1463.937,"endTime":1466.107,"body":"usually offshored, right?"},{"startTime":1466.257,"endTime":1469.487,"body":"And offshored, like you're not going"},{"startTime":1466.257,"endTime":1469.487,"body":"to get good service with those people."},{"startTime":1469.487,"endTime":1472.277,"body":"And you know, they got this"},{"startTime":1469.487,"endTime":1472.277,"body":"terrible, terrible, terrible, I call"},{"startTime":1472.277,"endTime":1475.947,"body":"that white glove for the warranty"},{"startTime":1472.277,"endTime":1475.947,"body":"period and then kick in the pants."},{"startTime":1475.987,"endTime":1478.487,"body":"So I want to, we've already"},{"startTime":1475.987,"endTime":1478.487,"body":"started talking about specialized"},{"startTime":1478.487,"endTime":1480.277,"body":"experience with DevOps, with QA."},{"startTime":1480.297,"endTime":1483.157,"body":"We took a few data science is another"},{"startTime":1480.297,"endTime":1483.157,"body":"one we haven't talked about yet."},{"startTime":1483.347,"endTime":1485.117,"body":"So I'm going to introduce that"},{"startTime":1483.347,"endTime":1485.117,"body":"one with specialized experience."},{"startTime":1485.357,"endTime":1490.267,"body":"The idea that if I sit with just my group"},{"startTime":1485.357,"endTime":1490.267,"body":"and I'm just loaned out to other teams"},{"startTime":1490.267,"endTime":1495.147,"body":"and other projects, that I'll actually"},{"startTime":1490.267,"endTime":1495.147,"body":"have more benefit to advance my career."},{"startTime":1495.347,"endTime":1499.217,"body":"What would you say if I told you,"},{"startTime":1495.347,"endTime":1499.217,"body":"I think that if I keep all my QA"},{"startTime":1499.217,"endTime":1502.557,"body":"team over here and you just tap"},{"startTime":1499.217,"endTime":1502.557,"body":"me when you need something, I'll"},{"startTime":1502.557,"endTime":1503.737,"body":"just assign somebody or whatever."},{"startTime":1503.917,"endTime":1507.967,"body":"Like then all my QA people can concentrate"},{"startTime":1503.917,"endTime":1507.967,"body":"on career development and their skill"},{"startTime":1507.967,"endTime":1508.867,"body":"development and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1508.867,"endTime":1511.657,"body":"Whereas if they were on your team,"},{"startTime":1508.867,"endTime":1511.657,"body":"I couldn't be guaranteed that they"},{"startTime":1511.717,"endTime":1514.267,"body":"could be doing that stuff, or maybe"},{"startTime":1511.717,"endTime":1514.267,"body":"since you would overload them with"},{"startTime":1514.277,"endTime":1515.857,"body":"work, they wouldn't have any time."},{"startTime":1515.867,"endTime":1519.217,"body":"maybe you listen to our podcast on"},{"startTime":1515.867,"endTime":1519.217,"body":"Cognitive Switching, on Cognitive Load,"},{"startTime":1519.517,"endTime":1523.307,"body":"and then you would say, Well, Brian the"},{"startTime":1519.517,"endTime":1523.307,"body":"experts are saying, like if my people"},{"startTime":1523.307,"endTime":1525.877,"body":"are loaded down with work, they're not"},{"startTime":1523.307,"endTime":1525.877,"body":"gonna learn, so I need to make sure"},{"startTime":1525.877,"endTime":1530.827,"body":"if I'm in control of their time, of"},{"startTime":1525.877,"endTime":1530.827,"body":"my, resources, my utilization of my"},{"startTime":1530.827,"endTime":1534.178,"body":"resources, Then I can make sure that"},{"startTime":1530.827,"endTime":1534.178,"body":"I'm giving them time to learn, time"},{"startTime":1534.178,"endTime":1538.068,"body":"to take those mandatory courses that I"},{"startTime":1534.178,"endTime":1538.068,"body":"decide they need to work on as opposed"},{"startTime":1538.108,"endTime":1542.138,"body":"to them being on a team long enough to"},{"startTime":1538.108,"endTime":1542.138,"body":"understand that domain and really build"},{"startTime":1542.138,"endTime":1544.098,"body":"up their experience and knowledge there."},{"startTime":1544.248,"endTime":1544.578,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1544.618,"endTime":1548.218,"body":"And hopefully they work with a"},{"startTime":1544.618,"endTime":1548.218,"body":"savvy team members scrum masters"},{"startTime":1548.248,"endTime":1550.998,"body":"product people that say, yeah,"},{"startTime":1548.248,"endTime":1550.998,"body":"we're going to build in learning."},{"startTime":1551.198,"endTime":1555.208,"body":"that's the alternative, which I would"},{"startTime":1551.198,"endTime":1555.208,"body":"much rather pursue than this idea of a"},{"startTime":1555.218,"endTime":1558.458,"body":"governance body that dictates how many"},{"startTime":1555.218,"endTime":1558.458,"body":"hours of training you have to go through"},{"startTime":1558.608,"endTime":1561.748,"body":"every quarter, because that's how they"},{"startTime":1558.608,"endTime":1561.748,"body":"will budget it and when they do that, they"},{"startTime":1561.748,"endTime":1564.008,"body":"say we've now enabled all these skills."},{"startTime":1564.008,"endTime":1564.648,"body":"No, you haven't."},{"startTime":1564.798,"endTime":1568.338,"body":"All you've done is for someone to"},{"startTime":1564.798,"endTime":1568.338,"body":"sit through a class for a few hours."},{"startTime":1568.488,"endTime":1573.418,"body":"So what I would say to that is that you"},{"startTime":1568.488,"endTime":1573.418,"body":"a person Isn't really gaining skills,"},{"startTime":1573.608,"endTime":1575.348,"body":"they're getting book knowledge at best."},{"startTime":1575.638,"endTime":1577.268,"body":"how do you apply that in real life?"},{"startTime":1577.278,"endTime":1579.498,"body":"How do you learn from experience"},{"startTime":1577.278,"endTime":1579.498,"body":"if you're not on a team?"},{"startTime":1579.528,"endTime":1580.758,"body":"I'll tell you how you don't apply it."},{"startTime":1580.908,"endTime":1582.268,"body":"I think it's the same"},{"startTime":1580.908,"endTime":1582.268,"body":"thing as data science."},{"startTime":1582.418,"endTime":1586.618,"body":"QA, at least QA that they have to be"},{"startTime":1582.418,"endTime":1586.618,"body":"in line with the rest of the work that"},{"startTime":1586.618,"endTime":1590.138,"body":"everyone's doing like directly servicing"},{"startTime":1586.618,"endTime":1590.138,"body":"the customer, like data science."},{"startTime":1590.168,"endTime":1593.278,"body":"Oh, I've got to have specialized expertise"},{"startTime":1590.168,"endTime":1593.278,"body":"sit on their own team because what they do"},{"startTime":1593.278,"endTime":1596.518,"body":"is so unique and they don't need to learn"},{"startTime":1593.278,"endTime":1596.518,"body":"customer service skill and they don't need"},{"startTime":1596.518,"endTime":1597.898,"body":"to learn how to work with development."},{"startTime":1597.898,"endTime":1600.358,"body":"And then Lord forbid, they"},{"startTime":1597.898,"endTime":1600.358,"body":"actually sit with a tester."},{"startTime":1600.703,"endTime":1604.673,"body":"And watch what the testers doing and get"},{"startTime":1600.703,"endTime":1604.673,"body":"question and learn some testing skill,"},{"startTime":1604.683,"endTime":1607.733,"body":"learn some cross functional skills that"},{"startTime":1604.683,"endTime":1607.733,"body":"will help them in the rest of their, like"},{"startTime":1607.813,"endTime":1610.363,"body":"I also think about like, Oh,"},{"startTime":1607.813,"endTime":1610.363,"body":"sorry, I don't have any data"},{"startTime":1610.363,"endTime":1611.753,"body":"scientists to give to you there."},{"startTime":1611.843,"endTime":1614.873,"body":"There are 100 percent utilize on"},{"startTime":1611.843,"endTime":1614.873,"body":"other projects and, and I will, and I"},{"startTime":1614.873,"endTime":1618.653,"body":"will look at you with a straight face"},{"startTime":1614.873,"endTime":1618.653,"body":"and say, what other projects show me"},{"startTime":1618.903,"endTime":1621.043,"body":"the value of those other projects."},{"startTime":1621.193,"endTime":1623.523,"body":"Oh, well, it's that's it"},{"startTime":1621.193,"endTime":1623.523,"body":"doesn't work that way."},{"startTime":1623.603,"endTime":1624.493,"body":"It doesn't work that way."},{"startTime":1624.503,"endTime":1627.783,"body":"Someone screamed louder than you Brian"},{"startTime":1624.503,"endTime":1627.783,"body":"So I had to give that person to them."},{"startTime":1627.833,"endTime":1630.623,"body":"Show me the value of that person"},{"startTime":1627.833,"endTime":1630.623,"body":"screaming louder than me Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1630.853,"endTime":1634.983,"body":"Unfortunately, this is reality and I"},{"startTime":1630.853,"endTime":1634.983,"body":"think The more, see how do I want to"},{"startTime":1634.983,"endTime":1640.683,"body":"say this a lot of times the skills"},{"startTime":1634.983,"endTime":1640.683,"body":"that are really impacting teams in this"},{"startTime":1640.693,"endTime":1645.213,"body":"structured way where we have a shared"},{"startTime":1640.693,"endTime":1645.213,"body":"services model are skills that aren't"},{"startTime":1645.213,"endTime":1649.953,"body":"very prevalent, like DevOps, DevOps skills"},{"startTime":1645.213,"endTime":1649.953,"body":"are highly specialized people, right?"},{"startTime":1650.003,"endTime":1653.593,"body":"Architects, UX, you can't just"},{"startTime":1650.003,"endTime":1653.593,"body":"tell a developer, hey, you"},{"startTime":1653.593,"endTime":1654.813,"body":"go figure that out yourself."},{"startTime":1655.143,"endTime":1659.073,"body":"I mean, In theory, everyone's self"},{"startTime":1655.143,"endTime":1659.073,"body":"organizing, self managing, but"},{"startTime":1659.103,"endTime":1661.313,"body":"still, you have to have some level."},{"startTime":1661.323,"endTime":1662.693,"body":"It's the verticals here."},{"startTime":1662.753,"endTime":1663.973,"body":"you can learn for sure."},{"startTime":1663.983,"endTime":1666.463,"body":"You can pinch hit for someone if"},{"startTime":1663.983,"endTime":1666.463,"body":"they're not around, but you're"},{"startTime":1666.463,"endTime":1668.003,"body":"not the core expert there."},{"startTime":1668.153,"endTime":1670.263,"body":"You don't get that just by sitting in."},{"startTime":1670.413,"endTime":1676.383,"body":"Like a box basically saying, well, this"},{"startTime":1670.413,"endTime":1676.383,"body":"is a group of the cadre of UX people or"},{"startTime":1676.533,"endTime":1678.563,"body":"testers or whatever, you don't get that."},{"startTime":1678.573,"endTime":1680.403,"body":"Stick with DevOps because"},{"startTime":1678.573,"endTime":1680.403,"body":"it's such a good one."},{"startTime":1680.413,"endTime":1682.473,"body":"is such a good one because DevOps to me."},{"startTime":1682.623,"endTime":1685.673,"body":"Let me, let me, let me sit down and break"},{"startTime":1682.623,"endTime":1685.673,"body":"out all my pet peeves on the podcast."},{"startTime":1685.823,"endTime":1688.453,"body":"Just open my box of pet"},{"startTime":1685.823,"endTime":1688.453,"body":"peeves that I don't talk about"},{"startTime":1688.453,"endTime":1690.153,"body":"before DevOps was a thing."},{"startTime":1690.303,"endTime":1692.033,"body":"Let's talk about the old times."},{"startTime":1692.033,"endTime":1692.673,"body":"Ah, there you go with this."},{"startTime":1692.683,"endTime":1694.493,"body":"Let's talk about, the old times."},{"startTime":1694.543,"endTime":1695.533,"body":"Before the empire."},{"startTime":1695.653,"endTime":1696.363,"body":"The dark times."},{"startTime":1696.713,"endTime":1701.283,"body":"I remember managing a server room,"},{"startTime":1696.713,"endTime":1701.283,"body":"like racks of servers in a room and"},{"startTime":1701.283,"endTime":1704.373,"body":"doing hardware maintenance and network"},{"startTime":1701.283,"endTime":1704.373,"body":"maintenance and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1704.453,"endTime":1705.663,"body":"I remember temperature sensors."},{"startTime":1705.663,"endTime":1708.713,"body":"I remember a whole different world that"},{"startTime":1705.663,"endTime":1708.713,"body":"just doesn't exist now because someone"},{"startTime":1708.713,"endTime":1713.567,"body":"said, Hey buddy, Why don't you move that"},{"startTime":1708.713,"endTime":1713.567,"body":"to the cloud and pay me some cloud monies?"},{"startTime":1713.717,"endTime":1717.197,"body":"And then the company's like wait a"},{"startTime":1713.717,"endTime":1717.197,"body":"minute, I can pay you and then you'll"},{"startTime":1717.197,"endTime":1721.347,"body":"guarantee me an uptime of nine point"},{"startTime":1717.197,"endTime":1721.347,"body":"X, X, X, And then I can fire all my"},{"startTime":1721.347,"endTime":1725.247,"body":"network administrators and I can fire"},{"startTime":1721.347,"endTime":1725.247,"body":"all my system administrators and I"},{"startTime":1725.247,"endTime":1728.748,"body":"can fire all my support because that"},{"startTime":1725.247,"endTime":1728.748,"body":"side of the house used to have A whole"},{"startTime":1728.748,"endTime":1730.528,"body":"staff of people that came with it."},{"startTime":1730.678,"endTime":1733.218,"body":"I can fire all those people and"},{"startTime":1730.678,"endTime":1733.218,"body":"I'll just, all my infrastructure"},{"startTime":1733.218,"endTime":1733.768,"body":"will be in the cloud."},{"startTime":1733.908,"endTime":1737.048,"body":"We'll have infrastructure as a service"},{"startTime":1733.908,"endTime":1737.048,"body":"and we'll have cloud as a service"},{"startTime":1737.048,"endTime":1739.958,"body":"and we'll have, you know do your"},{"startTime":1737.048,"endTime":1739.958,"body":"laundry as a service or whatever."},{"startTime":1739.958,"endTime":1741.328,"body":"We'll have everything as a service."},{"startTime":1741.448,"endTime":1742.618,"body":"Customer service as a service."},{"startTime":1742.648,"endTime":1744.078,"body":"Customer service as a service."},{"startTime":1744.088,"endTime":1745.878,"body":"Send your, send your customer"},{"startTime":1744.088,"endTime":1745.878,"body":"service people to me."},{"startTime":1745.938,"endTime":1750.498,"body":"I'm laughing because these problems of"},{"startTime":1745.938,"endTime":1750.498,"body":"oh, I can just have somebody else do"},{"startTime":1750.498,"endTime":1755.118,"body":"this stuff Like that just exacerbates"},{"startTime":1750.498,"endTime":1755.118,"body":"every tiny problem that you could have."},{"startTime":1755.288,"endTime":1758.468,"body":"Well, I think a lot of this is"},{"startTime":1755.288,"endTime":1758.468,"body":"really kind of like When the cloud"},{"startTime":1758.478,"endTime":1761.888,"body":"became a thing cloud providers went"},{"startTime":1758.478,"endTime":1761.888,"body":"out and sold it pretty heavily."},{"startTime":1761.918,"endTime":1765.318,"body":"They did saying, you don't"},{"startTime":1761.918,"endTime":1765.318,"body":"need a DBA at 140, 000 a year."},{"startTime":1765.318,"endTime":1766.538,"body":"We'll take care of all that."},{"startTime":1766.778,"endTime":1768.258,"body":"You don't need a support person."},{"startTime":1768.268,"endTime":1769.468,"body":"You don't need a hardware person."},{"startTime":1769.478,"endTime":1770.708,"body":"You don't need a networking person."},{"startTime":1770.728,"endTime":1771.948,"body":"You don't need etc, etc."},{"startTime":1772.098,"endTime":1775.328,"body":"And in return for all of that,"},{"startTime":1772.098,"endTime":1775.328,"body":"we're only charging you 30 percent"},{"startTime":1775.328,"endTime":1776.508,"body":"of what you're paying, right?"},{"startTime":1776.658,"endTime":1779.778,"body":"So I mean look I don't blame"},{"startTime":1776.658,"endTime":1779.778,"body":"companies for falling for that"},{"startTime":1779.788,"endTime":1782.958,"body":"because they were hoodwinked I don't"},{"startTime":1779.788,"endTime":1782.958,"body":"even believe them either because of"},{"startTime":1783.018,"endTime":1785.838,"body":"what we were talking about before"},{"startTime":1783.018,"endTime":1785.838,"body":"whoever owns the finances wins"},{"startTime":1785.948,"endTime":1790.248,"body":"And there's like I wish we could give"},{"startTime":1785.948,"endTime":1790.248,"body":"people Some better pushback or some"},{"startTime":1790.258,"endTime":1793.538,"body":"better understanding see like we did"},{"startTime":1790.258,"endTime":1793.538,"body":"a couple podcasts and one with Newton"},{"startTime":1793.568,"endTime":1798.768,"body":"on finance that might open your eyes"},{"startTime":1793.568,"endTime":1798.768,"body":"to understand and to talk with these"},{"startTime":1798.768,"endTime":1801.808,"body":"folks and try to empathize with them and"},{"startTime":1798.768,"endTime":1801.808,"body":"understand why they think the way they"},{"startTime":1801.808,"endTime":1805.058,"body":"think To slowly start breaking down that"},{"startTime":1801.808,"endTime":1805.058,"body":"barrier to say The way you guys have"},{"startTime":1805.058,"endTime":1808.028,"body":"done things forever in the past may not"},{"startTime":1805.058,"endTime":1808.028,"body":"be the best way Maybe there's another"},{"startTime":1808.028,"endTime":1809.568,"body":"way Let's sit down and talk about it."},{"startTime":1809.648,"endTime":1810.998,"body":"That's the only way you're"},{"startTime":1809.648,"endTime":1810.998,"body":"going to break through."},{"startTime":1811.148,"endTime":1814.798,"body":"But listen because you've gotten"},{"startTime":1811.148,"endTime":1814.798,"body":"rid of all this skill and hope that"},{"startTime":1814.798,"endTime":1815.748,"body":"somebody else will do it for you."},{"startTime":1815.798,"endTime":1819.298,"body":"And then let's say, for example, all"},{"startTime":1815.798,"endTime":1819.298,"body":"your systems start blue screening and"},{"startTime":1819.298,"endTime":1824.188,"body":"you don't know how to conduct business"},{"startTime":1819.298,"endTime":1824.188,"body":"now because you don't have any simple"},{"startTime":1824.198,"endTime":1829.068,"body":"network engineering orchestration at"},{"startTime":1824.198,"endTime":1829.068,"body":"scale skill in your organization anymore"},{"startTime":1829.218,"endTime":1832.518,"body":"because you've gone with this idea of"},{"startTime":1829.218,"endTime":1832.518,"body":"like, I'll just let somebody else do it"},{"startTime":1832.598,"endTime":1836.208,"body":"and we'll just trust that it's getting"},{"startTime":1832.598,"endTime":1836.208,"body":"done rather than say, these business"},{"startTime":1836.208,"endTime":1841.108,"body":"critical systems are done by this"},{"startTime":1836.208,"endTime":1841.108,"body":"specific team and they are taking full"},{"startTime":1841.108,"endTime":1842.238,"body":"ownership of everything they're doing."},{"startTime":1842.388,"endTime":1842.638,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1842.638,"endTime":1843.458,"body":"And again, I go back to that."},{"startTime":1843.483,"endTime":1847.053,"body":"to how they were sold this by"},{"startTime":1843.483,"endTime":1847.053,"body":"the providers of these network"},{"startTime":1847.093,"endTime":1848.463,"body":"security, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":1848.713,"endTime":1853.263,"body":"But at the same time, the whole thing"},{"startTime":1848.713,"endTime":1853.263,"body":"is all around transferring risk, right?"},{"startTime":1853.263,"endTime":1855.283,"body":"You own the risk of your infrastructure."},{"startTime":1855.283,"endTime":1858.953,"body":"If you own it in house, if somebody"},{"startTime":1855.283,"endTime":1858.953,"body":"else owns it, they own the risk."},{"startTime":1859.013,"endTime":1859.263,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1859.263,"endTime":1861.163,"body":"You pay for it, but they"},{"startTime":1859.263,"endTime":1861.163,"body":"own the risk, right?"},{"startTime":1861.503,"endTime":1862.853,"body":"So that's really what this is."},{"startTime":1862.893,"endTime":1866.143,"body":"And then when these BSOD start"},{"startTime":1862.893,"endTime":1866.143,"body":"happening and you go, why is that"},{"startTime":1866.223,"endTime":1867.663,"body":"impacting my flight tomorrow?"},{"startTime":1867.673,"endTime":1868.623,"body":"Do they own the risk though?"},{"startTime":1868.623,"endTime":1869.973,"body":"At that point, like they own the risk."},{"startTime":1870.123,"endTime":1872.873,"body":"But,  all that pain is"},{"startTime":1870.123,"endTime":1872.873,"body":"transferred to your customers."},{"startTime":1872.963,"endTime":1873.593,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1873.663,"endTime":1877.123,"body":"Even though that on the balance sheet,"},{"startTime":1873.663,"endTime":1877.123,"body":"I understand you made a decision on"},{"startTime":1877.123,"endTime":1881.053,"body":"the balance sheet to say this other"},{"startTime":1877.123,"endTime":1881.053,"body":"company owns a risk, but I mean yeah,"},{"startTime":1881.223,"endTime":1884.897,"body":"no, Om, there's going to be lawsuits and"},{"startTime":1881.223,"endTime":1884.897,"body":"contractual obligations and this and that."},{"startTime":1885.047,"endTime":1889.427,"body":"That damage is done now that"},{"startTime":1885.047,"endTime":1889.427,"body":"damage is done in multiple ways."},{"startTime":1889.437,"endTime":1889.967,"body":"So you're right."},{"startTime":1890.017,"endTime":1891.777,"body":"It's the, customers that are impacted."},{"startTime":1891.837,"endTime":1894.057,"body":"Therefore it's you"},{"startTime":1891.837,"endTime":1894.057,"body":"feeling the pain, right?"},{"startTime":1894.257,"endTime":1896.017,"body":"it's not just the incident though, right?"},{"startTime":1896.027,"endTime":1897.907,"body":"It's also reputation damage."},{"startTime":1897.907,"endTime":1900.177,"body":"Now your customers have"},{"startTime":1897.907,"endTime":1900.177,"body":"lost trust with you."},{"startTime":1900.327,"endTime":1901.377,"body":"Build that up quickly."},{"startTime":1901.427,"endTime":1903.147,"body":"If you can, I thought you were"},{"startTime":1901.427,"endTime":1903.147,"body":"going to say now your customers"},{"startTime":1903.157,"endTime":1903.967,"body":"know that you're clowns."},{"startTime":1904.067,"endTime":1904.657,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"startTime":1904.917,"endTime":1905.747,"body":"Now they know you're clowns."},{"startTime":1905.747,"endTime":1905.767,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1905.767,"endTime":1909.153,"body":"I mean does it, I, so."},{"startTime":1909.303,"endTime":1914.373,"body":"Again, two big problems with this,"},{"startTime":1909.303,"endTime":1914.373,"body":"this like, Oh, trust me that because"},{"startTime":1914.373,"endTime":1918.533,"body":"I'm keeping all the specialists, I'm"},{"startTime":1914.373,"endTime":1918.533,"body":"making sure they're having better career"},{"startTime":1918.533,"endTime":1922.493,"body":"opportunities and I'm making sure they're"},{"startTime":1918.533,"endTime":1922.493,"body":"more informed as the industry expertise."},{"startTime":1922.733,"endTime":1928.563,"body":"Like, first of all, this falls apart"},{"startTime":1922.733,"endTime":1928.563,"body":"when you introduce the value tests"},{"startTime":1928.773,"endTime":1931.333,"body":"that the product management that"},{"startTime":1928.773,"endTime":1931.333,"body":"Marty Cagan books and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1931.353,"endTime":1931.823,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1931.863,"endTime":1934.363,"body":"So this falls apart for, for"},{"startTime":1931.863,"endTime":1934.363,"body":"that is like, you're not."},{"startTime":1934.628,"endTime":1936.468,"body":"Producing a value in these silos."},{"startTime":1936.528,"endTime":1938.578,"body":"So right out, you're,"},{"startTime":1936.528,"endTime":1938.578,"body":"you're done right there."},{"startTime":1938.658,"endTime":1940.448,"body":"So you don't, there's no"},{"startTime":1938.658,"endTime":1940.448,"body":"arguing point to that."},{"startTime":1940.458,"endTime":1941.358,"body":"That's a great one to use."},{"startTime":1941.508,"endTime":1945.698,"body":"the other thing is why are you not doing"},{"startTime":1941.508,"endTime":1945.698,"body":"community practices across all the teams?"},{"startTime":1945.848,"endTime":1947.178,"body":"With all these specializations."},{"startTime":1947.378,"endTime":1950.268,"body":"There's a way to set this up where you"},{"startTime":1947.378,"endTime":1950.268,"body":"don't need to take control of anything."},{"startTime":1950.418,"endTime":1952.748,"body":"You're just facilitating"},{"startTime":1950.418,"endTime":1952.748,"body":"people's learnings."},{"startTime":1952.748,"endTime":1954.408,"body":"And, you can't force people to learn."},{"startTime":1954.738,"endTime":1956.258,"body":"So you can facilitate."},{"startTime":1956.408,"endTime":1960.408,"body":"Attempted sharing of knowledge and"},{"startTime":1956.408,"endTime":1960.408,"body":"learnings and you might get 20 percent"},{"startTime":1960.428,"endTime":1964.358,"body":"30 percent like I've done this in"},{"startTime":1960.428,"endTime":1964.358,"body":"the past where I've been or I open"},{"startTime":1964.358,"endTime":1967.498,"body":"up like product management community"},{"startTime":1964.358,"endTime":1967.498,"body":"knowledge and this is a scrum master"},{"startTime":1967.498,"endTime":1970.618,"body":"community, a community, a community"},{"startTime":1967.498,"endTime":1970.618,"body":"practice, community practice, community"},{"startTime":1970.618,"endTime":1971.628,"body":"interest, whatever you want to call it."},{"startTime":1971.778,"endTime":1975.468,"body":"100 percent of the people in that role"},{"startTime":1971.778,"endTime":1975.468,"body":"across the organization do not show up."},{"startTime":1975.618,"endTime":1979.738,"body":"Like you, you will get a small"},{"startTime":1975.618,"endTime":1979.738,"body":"percentage and be lucky to get engaged"},{"startTime":1979.768,"endTime":1980.988,"body":"people with that small percentage."},{"startTime":1981.158,"endTime":1982.688,"body":"That has definitely been my experience."},{"startTime":1982.838,"endTime":1985.968,"body":"You'll be lucky if a few people show up"},{"startTime":1982.838,"endTime":1985.968,"body":"and that's because they're not incented."},{"startTime":1986.288,"endTime":1991.018,"body":"And you're saying you're going to force"},{"startTime":1986.288,"endTime":1991.018,"body":"them and they're going to get more from"},{"startTime":1991.018,"endTime":1995.888,"body":"being forced to do it because they're"},{"startTime":1991.018,"endTime":1995.888,"body":"now controlled under a group or whatever."},{"startTime":1996.128,"endTime":1999.508,"body":"I feel when you do it as a community"},{"startTime":1996.128,"endTime":1999.508,"body":"of interest or a community of practice"},{"startTime":1999.658,"endTime":2002.838,"body":"and people come to it, at least then"},{"startTime":1999.658,"endTime":2002.838,"body":"they've taken the first step to say,"},{"startTime":2002.878,"endTime":2004.278,"body":"I am here because I want to learn."},{"startTime":2004.288,"endTime":2005.868,"body":"Yeah, they're showing"},{"startTime":2004.288,"endTime":2005.868,"body":"initiative right there."},{"startTime":2005.918,"endTime":2006.248,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2006.338,"endTime":2006.828,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2006.938,"endTime":2010.148,"body":"I think I would take that"},{"startTime":2006.938,"endTime":2010.148,"body":"people self selecting."},{"startTime":2010.218,"endTime":2014.078,"body":"I would take that over you know,"},{"startTime":2010.218,"endTime":2014.078,"body":"Hey I'm sending everybody to this"},{"startTime":2014.078,"endTime":2017.958,"body":"class or everyone's got to go to You"},{"startTime":2014.078,"endTime":2017.958,"body":"know, pick two lectures or whatever."},{"startTime":2017.968,"endTime":2019.818,"body":"They're just chucking a box"},{"startTime":2017.968,"endTime":2019.818,"body":"at that point, aren't they?"},{"startTime":2019.818,"endTime":2021.988,"body":"Because they're saying, well,"},{"startTime":2019.818,"endTime":2021.988,"body":"I'd rather just go, then you're"},{"startTime":2021.988,"endTime":2023.398,"body":"making me go do this instead."},{"startTime":2023.598,"endTime":2024.628,"body":"So I'll just go do that."},{"startTime":2024.648,"endTime":2027.488,"body":"I'll watch these videos at"},{"startTime":2024.648,"endTime":2027.488,"body":"double time speed or whatever."},{"startTime":2027.558,"endTime":2029.258,"body":"The point is, you can do that anyway."},{"startTime":2029.408,"endTime":2030.928,"body":"You don't need control."},{"startTime":2031.078,"endTime":2033.608,"body":"But if you don't have control"},{"startTime":2031.078,"endTime":2033.608,"body":"and you're the manager across"},{"startTime":2033.628,"endTime":2035.048,"body":"this matrix thing, right?"},{"startTime":2035.098,"endTime":2038.838,"body":"How are you gonna establish your"},{"startTime":2035.098,"endTime":2038.838,"body":"authority and put your stamp on it?"},{"startTime":2038.988,"endTime":2042.648,"body":"You know, ensure your longev ensure"},{"startTime":2038.988,"endTime":2042.648,"body":"you're gonna be around a while."},{"startTime":2042.648,"endTime":2043.493,"body":"Longevity."},{"startTime":2043.493,"endTime":2044.338,"body":"Longevity?"},{"startTime":2044.338,"endTime":2046.873,"body":"Oh la la!"},{"startTime":2046.873,"endTime":2047.718,"body":"Longevity."},{"startTime":2047.718,"endTime":2050.158,"body":"."},{"startTime":2047.718,"endTime":2050.158,"body":"So I feel we've stayed"},{"startTime":2050.308,"endTime":2054.358,"body":"Then we should have the, the idea that,"},{"startTime":2050.308,"endTime":2054.358,"body":"Oh, I, because I control the people,"},{"startTime":2054.358,"endTime":2055.488,"body":"they have better career opportunities."},{"startTime":2055.488,"endTime":2059.228,"body":"I mean, I like also there's a, there's"},{"startTime":2055.488,"endTime":2059.228,"body":"also a little arrogance in that statement"},{"startTime":2059.228,"endTime":2063.228,"body":"that it says like, Oh, I, I know it's"},{"startTime":2059.228,"endTime":2063.228,"body":"a lot of, there's a lot of arrogance"},{"startTime":2063.228,"endTime":2067.898,"body":"in that to say, I can prove to my"},{"startTime":2063.228,"endTime":2067.898,"body":"superiors that I am actually managing"},{"startTime":2068.218,"endTime":2070.548,"body":"and improving this area of the business."},{"startTime":2070.548,"endTime":2070.858,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2071.148,"endTime":2073.978,"body":"Look how many people I've"},{"startTime":2071.148,"endTime":2073.978,"body":"trained hours of training."},{"startTime":2073.998,"endTime":2074.168,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2074.318,"endTime":2074.768,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2074.918,"endTime":2078.738,"body":"There's another category in here"},{"startTime":2074.918,"endTime":2078.738,"body":"that I, I, when I first saw this as"},{"startTime":2078.738,"endTime":2082.168,"body":"a topic when we first thought about"},{"startTime":2078.738,"endTime":2082.168,"body":"this as a topic was one of the things"},{"startTime":2082.168,"endTime":2083.648,"body":"that we identified very quickly."},{"startTime":2083.718,"endTime":2088.768,"body":"And it's probably spent way too long"},{"startTime":2083.718,"endTime":2088.768,"body":"talking about is agile misunderstandings."},{"startTime":2088.818,"endTime":2091.288,"body":"I was going to say purposeful"},{"startTime":2088.818,"endTime":2091.288,"body":"misinterpretations."},{"startTime":2091.288,"endTime":2093.148,"body":"That's, that's how I was pitching it."},{"startTime":2093.348,"endTime":2096.108,"body":"I went to an agile conference once and"},{"startTime":2093.348,"endTime":2096.108,"body":"they were talking about fluid teams and"},{"startTime":2096.108,"endTime":2097.848,"body":"I'm like, Oh boy, this sounds terrible."},{"startTime":2098.178,"endTime":2100.348,"body":"And everyone assured me"},{"startTime":2098.178,"endTime":2100.348,"body":"they're like, no, no, no, no."},{"startTime":2100.348,"endTime":2101.318,"body":"This is a legitimate thing."},{"startTime":2101.318,"endTime":2102.238,"body":"Fluid teams is the thing."},{"startTime":2102.538,"endTime":2103.798,"body":"I was like, I don't know, man."},{"startTime":2103.798,"endTime":2107.328,"body":"I understand the actual concept of fluid"},{"startTime":2103.798,"endTime":2107.328,"body":"teams was actually for, but someone"},{"startTime":2107.378,"endTime":2112.318,"body":"taking one line out of context from"},{"startTime":2107.378,"endTime":2112.318,"body":"something that they heard in agile"},{"startTime":2112.318,"endTime":2115.348,"body":"and then lifting it and being like,"},{"startTime":2112.318,"endTime":2115.348,"body":"see, agile says we can do fluid teams."},{"startTime":2115.548,"endTime":2117.088,"body":"Agile says we can throw"},{"startTime":2115.548,"endTime":2117.088,"body":"out the back hashtag."},{"startTime":2117.108,"endTime":2117.738,"body":"No backlogs."},{"startTime":2117.738,"endTime":2121.688,"body":"We just go from the hottest"},{"startTime":2117.738,"endTime":2121.688,"body":"fire to the next hottest fires"},{"startTime":2121.688,"endTime":2122.498,"body":"and the next hottest fire."},{"startTime":2122.498,"endTime":2122.578,"body":"And."},{"startTime":2122.728,"endTime":2124.748,"body":"Everything is chaos and eat pizza at 7 a."},{"startTime":2124.748,"endTime":2125.548,"body":"m., you know."},{"startTime":2125.678,"endTime":2127.478,"body":"Yeah, look, I agree with all of that."},{"startTime":2127.478,"endTime":2130.648,"body":"I mean, if there's one industry"},{"startTime":2127.478,"endTime":2130.648,"body":"where people take a single line"},{"startTime":2130.658,"endTime":2131.918,"body":"out of context, this is it."},{"startTime":2132.218,"endTime":2134.778,"body":"You know oh, let's do twice"},{"startTime":2132.218,"endTime":2134.778,"body":"the work in half the time."},{"startTime":2135.108,"endTime":2136.298,"body":"And to hell with the quality."},{"startTime":2136.448,"endTime":2139.038,"body":"I mean, that last bit is hidden,"},{"startTime":2136.448,"endTime":2139.038,"body":"but it's still there, right?"},{"startTime":2139.038,"endTime":2140.382,"body":"I mean, to heck with the quality."},{"startTime":2140.382,"endTime":2141.31,"body":"That's what I meant."},{"startTime":2141.31,"endTime":2142.006,"body":"Ooh la la."},{"startTime":2142.006,"endTime":2142.934,"body":"Ooh la la, exactly."},{"startTime":2142.934,"endTime":2145.298,"body":"So, I mean, people do"},{"startTime":2142.934,"endTime":2145.298,"body":"this all the time, right?"},{"startTime":2145.538,"endTime":2147.198,"body":"And they do it the other way, I find."},{"startTime":2147.298,"endTime":2147.958,"body":"Like people say."},{"startTime":2148.108,"endTime":2152.488,"body":"I need to have everybody do everything on"},{"startTime":2148.108,"endTime":2152.488,"body":"my team because we're supposed to be self"},{"startTime":2152.488,"endTime":2154.848,"body":"directed, self managing, self organizing."},{"startTime":2154.998,"endTime":2157.868,"body":"If you really like that, why"},{"startTime":2154.998,"endTime":2157.868,"body":"do you need a scrum master?"},{"startTime":2157.978,"endTime":2159.048,"body":"You don't need a scrum master."},{"startTime":2159.108,"endTime":2160.988,"body":"The teams just do whatever they want."},{"startTime":2161.108,"endTime":2164.518,"body":"I mean, not in a rebellious way,"},{"startTime":2161.108,"endTime":2164.518,"body":"but they can just be self organized."},{"startTime":2164.528,"endTime":2166.838,"body":"You also don't need a product"},{"startTime":2164.528,"endTime":2166.838,"body":"person because every team member"},{"startTime":2166.838,"endTime":2168.168,"body":"talks to the customer every day."},{"startTime":2168.318,"endTime":2171.488,"body":"Except I haven't seen that"},{"startTime":2168.318,"endTime":2171.488,"body":"unicorn team in action anywhere."},{"startTime":2171.638,"endTime":2173.218,"body":"So you just have to get there."},{"startTime":2173.368,"endTime":2177.688,"body":"Over course of time, and it's in"},{"startTime":2173.368,"endTime":2177.688,"body":"the pursuit of that, that I think"},{"startTime":2177.698,"endTime":2179.008,"body":"the secret sauce lies, right?"},{"startTime":2179.008,"endTime":2180.858,"body":"So people do take these"},{"startTime":2179.008,"endTime":2180.858,"body":"things out of context."},{"startTime":2180.928,"endTime":2185.718,"body":"It's like the first thing we saw when"},{"startTime":2180.928,"endTime":2185.718,"body":"agile kind of really gained momentum"},{"startTime":2185.718,"endTime":2190.508,"body":"was there's no place in agile for"},{"startTime":2185.718,"endTime":2190.508,"body":"project managers, delivery managers."},{"startTime":2190.508,"endTime":2192.458,"body":"The reality is they're still there, right?"},{"startTime":2192.528,"endTime":2193.608,"body":"So you gotta deal with them."},{"startTime":2193.698,"endTime":2196.068,"body":"They will come in and"},{"startTime":2193.698,"endTime":2196.068,"body":"disrupt you otherwise."},{"startTime":2196.218,"endTime":2199.728,"body":"So either embrace that role"},{"startTime":2196.218,"endTime":2199.728,"body":"and say, how do we make sure?"},{"startTime":2200.023,"endTime":2200.963,"body":"They get what they want."},{"startTime":2200.963,"endTime":2201.733,"body":"We get what we want."},{"startTime":2201.803,"endTime":2202.123,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2202.273,"endTime":2203.663,"body":"Or you can just keep fighting."},{"startTime":2203.813,"endTime":2207.993,"body":"I remember very early saying you very"},{"startTime":2203.813,"endTime":2207.993,"body":"easily could keep your project manager."},{"startTime":2208.023,"endTime":2210.673,"body":"There's no reason to fire all your"},{"startTime":2208.023,"endTime":2210.673,"body":"project managers or whatever, try to"},{"startTime":2210.823,"endTime":2214.503,"body":"crowbar them in a scrum master or product"},{"startTime":2210.823,"endTime":2214.503,"body":"position and do any funky stuff like that."},{"startTime":2214.503,"endTime":2219.203,"body":"Because the typical agile team a"},{"startTime":2214.503,"endTime":2219.203,"body":"huge missing link in their chain is"},{"startTime":2219.233,"endTime":2223.403,"body":"connecting them to funding and, and,"},{"startTime":2219.233,"endTime":2223.403,"body":"and the rest of the business, basically"},{"startTime":2223.423,"endTime":2226.643,"body":"like the, the, the agile, the way it's"},{"startTime":2223.423,"endTime":2226.643,"body":"trained, it like lives on an island."},{"startTime":2226.793,"endTime":2229.433,"body":"That's one of the critiques"},{"startTime":2226.793,"endTime":2229.433,"body":"of, of it right now."},{"startTime":2229.683,"endTime":2233.503,"body":"And I, and where it loses online"},{"startTime":2229.683,"endTime":2233.503,"body":"to the, the product management"},{"startTime":2233.503,"endTime":2234.443,"body":"communities and stuff like that."},{"startTime":2234.443,"endTime":2237.303,"body":"It's not, it's not linked"},{"startTime":2234.443,"endTime":2237.303,"body":"to value basically."},{"startTime":2237.453,"endTime":2240.643,"body":"But yeah, I mean, the project manager"},{"startTime":2237.453,"endTime":2240.643,"body":"could very easily link you back to"},{"startTime":2240.673,"endTime":2243.723,"body":"the, if your business runs on if"},{"startTime":2240.673,"endTime":2243.723,"body":"you're like in the government space,"},{"startTime":2243.723,"endTime":2248.213,"body":"you run a project contracts and or"},{"startTime":2243.723,"endTime":2248.213,"body":"maybe you're scaled and you have tons"},{"startTime":2248.213,"endTime":2252.123,"body":"and tons of teams and you really need"},{"startTime":2248.213,"endTime":2252.123,"body":"something, some kind of scaled overhead."},{"startTime":2252.273,"endTime":2252.443,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2252.443,"endTime":2255.713,"body":"I mean, if that weren't the case,"},{"startTime":2252.443,"endTime":2255.713,"body":"you wouldn't have rules like Program"},{"startTime":2255.713,"endTime":2258.473,"body":"managers or delivery managers, right?"},{"startTime":2258.623,"endTime":2261.653,"body":"Like, isn't the team responsible"},{"startTime":2258.623,"endTime":2261.653,"body":"and accountable for delivery, right?"},{"startTime":2261.693,"endTime":2262.943,"body":"So why do you need a delivery?"},{"startTime":2262.943,"endTime":2265.483,"body":"Even Marty Cagan says delivery"},{"startTime":2262.943,"endTime":2265.483,"body":"manager, project manager."},{"startTime":2265.483,"endTime":2269.193,"body":"I mean there's so much vitriol about that"},{"startTime":2265.483,"endTime":2269.193,"body":"kind of stuff in the agile community."},{"startTime":2269.193,"endTime":2270.233,"body":"I just don't talk about it anymore."},{"startTime":2270.243,"endTime":2273.463,"body":"I just don't bring it up but there"},{"startTime":2270.243,"endTime":2273.463,"body":"are definitely people who have that"},{"startTime":2273.463,"endTime":2274.693,"body":"professional experience that you're."},{"startTime":2274.843,"endTime":2277.623,"body":"You're wasting like you're"},{"startTime":2274.843,"endTime":2277.623,"body":"going to a gold mine and you're"},{"startTime":2277.623,"endTime":2278.403,"body":"wasting all your opportunity."},{"startTime":2278.403,"endTime":2279.343,"body":"Coming out with sand."},{"startTime":2279.373,"endTime":2279.633,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2279.783,"endTime":2280.083,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2280.133,"endTime":2280.323,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2280.323,"endTime":2281.153,"body":"Coming out with rocks."},{"startTime":2281.183,"endTime":2282.313,"body":"Thinking you gotta do it all yourself."},{"startTime":2282.463,"endTime":2285.223,"body":"But it's the panning experience"},{"startTime":2282.463,"endTime":2285.223,"body":"that we're going for."},{"startTime":2285.373,"endTime":2285.923,"body":"Ain't fun."},{"startTime":2286.233,"endTime":2286.483,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2286.493,"endTime":2287.543,"body":"Digging trenches ain't fun."},{"startTime":2287.593,"endTime":2293.513,"body":"If I keep a pool of people specialists"},{"startTime":2287.593,"endTime":2293.513,"body":"outside of any team, then we can be more"},{"startTime":2293.513,"endTime":2297.843,"body":"flexible if any one project crops up"},{"startTime":2293.513,"endTime":2297.843,"body":"unexpectedly or one project scales up"},{"startTime":2297.873,"endTime":2300.903,"body":"unexpectedly, I can throw more people"},{"startTime":2297.873,"endTime":2300.903,"body":"at it and I can take people from."},{"startTime":2301.053,"endTime":2305.113,"body":"The pool of the shared service and"},{"startTime":2301.053,"endTime":2305.113,"body":"throw them there because if they were"},{"startTime":2305.113,"endTime":2308.713,"body":"on any other teams, then we'd have to"},{"startTime":2305.113,"endTime":2308.713,"body":"do this big tap dance and something."},{"startTime":2308.793,"endTime":2310.463,"body":"We'd have to do something"},{"startTime":2308.793,"endTime":2310.463,"body":"it'd be a big thing."},{"startTime":2310.513,"endTime":2313.833,"body":"That almost assumes you have people"},{"startTime":2310.513,"endTime":2313.833,"body":"sitting around, right, that you can"},{"startTime":2313.833,"endTime":2315.573,"body":"just pick off you know, off the bench."},{"startTime":2315.683,"endTime":2316.673,"body":"It never happens."},{"startTime":2317.303,"endTime":2320.873,"body":"So they say, well, we need somebody,"},{"startTime":2317.303,"endTime":2320.873,"body":"but you know, Joe over here, he's a"},{"startTime":2320.993,"endTime":2324.793,"body":"senior executive and he's yelling and"},{"startTime":2320.993,"endTime":2324.793,"body":"this guy over here is a director and"},{"startTime":2324.793,"endTime":2328.463,"body":"I've got somebody on his team, but"},{"startTime":2324.793,"endTime":2328.463,"body":"you know, I got to make Joe happy."},{"startTime":2328.463,"endTime":2331.923,"body":"So I'm gonna pull Mary off of that"},{"startTime":2328.463,"endTime":2331.923,"body":"team and put her over here and"},{"startTime":2331.953,"endTime":2334.533,"body":"I mean, come on You still have"},{"startTime":2331.953,"endTime":2334.533,"body":"the tap dance going on, right?"},{"startTime":2334.833,"endTime":2340.208,"body":"You just have this perceived illusion"},{"startTime":2334.833,"endTime":2340.208,"body":"of helping someone As, as that person"},{"startTime":2340.368,"endTime":2342.498,"body":"who's in charge of these people up,"},{"startTime":2342.738,"endTime":2346.138,"body":"I'll push back on what you're saying,"},{"startTime":2342.738,"endTime":2346.138,"body":"because in my experience, the way this"},{"startTime":2346.418,"endTime":2350.148,"body":"functionally works is there are dates"},{"startTime":2346.418,"endTime":2350.148,"body":"when those people are rolling off of their"},{"startTime":2350.148,"endTime":2354.358,"body":"project and then they'll say, okay, we"},{"startTime":2350.148,"endTime":2354.358,"body":"can give you a resource quote resource."},{"startTime":2354.508,"endTime":2355.438,"body":"At this date."},{"startTime":2355.448,"endTime":2357.078,"body":"And that day will be weeks in the future."},{"startTime":2357.078,"endTime":2360.528,"body":"So basically you can't get anything"},{"startTime":2357.078,"endTime":2360.528,"body":"done until weeks in the future."},{"startTime":2360.558,"endTime":2362.718,"body":"If you want that cross functional skill."},{"startTime":2362.958,"endTime":2367.158,"body":"So what you do on the team"},{"startTime":2362.958,"endTime":2367.158,"body":"usually is you just figure it out."},{"startTime":2367.218,"endTime":2370.308,"body":"If you're not going to get cause"},{"startTime":2367.218,"endTime":2370.308,"body":"your deadlines are, you'll blow all"},{"startTime":2370.308,"endTime":2371.318,"body":"your deadlines out of the water."},{"startTime":2371.318,"endTime":2372.608,"body":"If you have to, you actually have to wait."},{"startTime":2372.908,"endTime":2377.058,"body":"So either you will do your executive"},{"startTime":2372.908,"endTime":2377.058,"body":"screaming and get a person, right?"},{"startTime":2377.058,"endTime":2378.438,"body":"Somehow, whatever person."},{"startTime":2378.588,"endTime":2380.328,"body":"Well, they have to hire a person, right?"},{"startTime":2380.478,"endTime":2382.208,"body":"Or you'll just figure it out."},{"startTime":2382.218,"endTime":2385.948,"body":"Now you've got the skill in your"},{"startTime":2382.218,"endTime":2385.948,"body":"team, which you wanted to have"},{"startTime":2385.948,"endTime":2387.088,"body":"your skill in your team anyway."},{"startTime":2387.238,"endTime":2389.708,"body":"Well, that's the positive"},{"startTime":2387.238,"endTime":2389.708,"body":"outcome in the long run."},{"startTime":2389.708,"endTime":2392.128,"body":"I think, I mean, you're going to"},{"startTime":2389.708,"endTime":2392.128,"body":"have some roadblocks on the way."},{"startTime":2392.178,"endTime":2393.648,"body":"let me give you another experience."},{"startTime":2393.698,"endTime":2399.678,"body":"Which is a product management, product"},{"startTime":2393.698,"endTime":2399.678,"body":"marketing, UI, UX, like plenty of people."},{"startTime":2399.808,"endTime":2402.958,"body":"And then the development team, plenty"},{"startTime":2399.808,"endTime":2402.958,"body":"of people on team that enjoy talking to"},{"startTime":2402.958,"endTime":2406.436,"body":"customers, know that the real value is"},{"startTime":2402.958,"endTime":2406.436,"body":"talking directly to the customers Was"},{"startTime":2406.436,"endTime":2411.086,"body":"on the team one time where we wanted"},{"startTime":2406.436,"endTime":2411.086,"body":"to meet with prospects, we wanted"},{"startTime":2411.086,"endTime":2414.326,"body":"to bring leads in the company, the"},{"startTime":2411.086,"endTime":2414.326,"body":"product management, product marketer,"},{"startTime":2414.326,"endTime":2417.921,"body":"UI UX, and the dev team, like the"},{"startTime":2414.326,"endTime":2417.921,"body":"dev team, usually on the leads side."},{"startTime":2417.921,"endTime":2420.111,"body":"pretty silent, to be honest."},{"startTime":2420.261,"endTime":2423.381,"body":"It was mainly the UI the"},{"startTime":2420.261,"endTime":2423.381,"body":"marketer and UI UX person."},{"startTime":2423.521,"endTime":2426.351,"body":"And I would when we would"},{"startTime":2423.521,"endTime":2426.351,"body":"commit to things, I would commit"},{"startTime":2426.361,"endTime":2427.501,"body":"things on behalf of the company."},{"startTime":2427.651,"endTime":2430.051,"body":"You know, I would say like, we"},{"startTime":2427.651,"endTime":2430.051,"body":"could do that or we can't do that."},{"startTime":2430.051,"endTime":2432.231,"body":"Or I would kind of be"},{"startTime":2430.051,"endTime":2432.231,"body":"the arbiter to be honest."},{"startTime":2432.381,"endTime":2435.101,"body":"And the development team would"},{"startTime":2432.381,"endTime":2435.101,"body":"chime in whenever something."},{"startTime":2435.241,"endTime":2436.881,"body":"You know, it was because some"},{"startTime":2435.241,"endTime":2436.881,"body":"of those calls people would"},{"startTime":2436.881,"endTime":2438.111,"body":"bring their technical person."},{"startTime":2438.141,"endTime":2438.961,"body":"We're talking to prospects."},{"startTime":2438.971,"endTime":2440.931,"body":"We're talking to people"},{"startTime":2438.971,"endTime":2440.931,"body":"we could make a sale to."},{"startTime":2441.011,"endTime":2443.251,"body":"And boy, you want to talk about"},{"startTime":2441.011,"endTime":2443.251,"body":"getting into fights with sales?"},{"startTime":2443.251,"endTime":2444.881,"body":"Like they did not like that."},{"startTime":2444.881,"endTime":2448.571,"body":"Cause you're providing a reality check"},{"startTime":2444.881,"endTime":2448.571,"body":"on their you know, did not like that."},{"startTime":2448.631,"endTime":2449.081,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2449.231,"endTime":2451.771,"body":"The fantasy view of when"},{"startTime":2449.231,"endTime":2451.771,"body":"she's a competitor, we were"},{"startTime":2451.771,"endTime":2452.521,"body":"perceived as a competitor."},{"startTime":2452.671,"endTime":2455.321,"body":"they have the normal sales meetings"},{"startTime":2452.671,"endTime":2455.321,"body":"where we talk about the pipeline and they"},{"startTime":2455.321,"endTime":2456.591,"body":"talk about the prospects and whatnot."},{"startTime":2456.591,"endTime":2459.781,"body":"So they, they perceived it very"},{"startTime":2456.591,"endTime":2459.781,"body":"negatively and we should have"},{"startTime":2459.781,"endTime":2461.011,"body":"been way more coupled with sale."},{"startTime":2461.011,"endTime":2465.111,"body":"I will be honest, the salespeople,"},{"startTime":2461.011,"endTime":2465.111,"body":"we should have been coupled with"},{"startTime":2465.111,"endTime":2467.691,"body":"the salespeople and bringing"},{"startTime":2465.111,"endTime":2467.691,"body":"them to every single one of our"},{"startTime":2467.691,"endTime":2469.281,"body":"sessions and looping them in."},{"startTime":2469.561,"endTime":2474.081,"body":"But because they were shared services and"},{"startTime":2469.561,"endTime":2474.081,"body":"we were not basically, they were too slow."},{"startTime":2474.281,"endTime":2477.471,"body":"their calendar was too hard to get onto"},{"startTime":2474.281,"endTime":2477.471,"body":"and they were not responsive enough."},{"startTime":2477.471,"endTime":2479.981,"body":"When we would email a customer and"},{"startTime":2477.471,"endTime":2479.981,"body":"say, Hey, can you meet with us?"},{"startTime":2480.131,"endTime":2483.571,"body":"We would throw out some dates and"},{"startTime":2480.131,"endTime":2483.571,"body":"they were all like Today at 4 p."},{"startTime":2483.571,"endTime":2483.901,"body":"m."},{"startTime":2484.001,"endTime":2484.441,"body":"Tomorrow."},{"startTime":2484.451,"endTime":2485.581,"body":"Tomorrow morning at 8 a."},{"startTime":2485.581,"endTime":2489.371,"body":"m They were like immediately and and the"},{"startTime":2485.581,"endTime":2489.371,"body":"team was down because we were one team,"},{"startTime":2489.611,"endTime":2492.751,"body":"you know We could clear our account we"},{"startTime":2489.611,"endTime":2492.751,"body":"can we could stop any we can we could"},{"startTime":2492.751,"endTime":2495.501,"body":"take any of our team events move them"},{"startTime":2492.751,"endTime":2495.501,"body":"around Sure, if you're in meetings"},{"startTime":2495.651,"endTime":2499.041,"body":"with yourselves anyway, yeah, so just"},{"startTime":2495.651,"endTime":2499.041,"body":"too slow too slow too unresponsive and"},{"startTime":2499.041,"endTime":2504.726,"body":"I mean we won in that case because We"},{"startTime":2499.041,"endTime":2504.726,"body":"were We were bringing in new work and"},{"startTime":2504.726,"endTime":2506.936,"body":"the CEO, it was small company CEO."},{"startTime":2506.936,"endTime":2508.136,"body":"They're like, who cares?"},{"startTime":2508.286,"endTime":2508.656,"body":"Bring it in."},{"startTime":2508.656,"endTime":2511.756,"body":"Yeah, bring in the new work, but, we were"},{"startTime":2508.656,"endTime":2511.756,"body":"burning some relationships to do that."},{"startTime":2511.776,"endTime":2512.266,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2512.276,"endTime":2513.636,"body":"We were churning and burning to do that."},{"startTime":2513.806,"endTime":2517.006,"body":"You bring up a good point about"},{"startTime":2513.806,"endTime":2517.006,"body":"these coordination issues, right?"},{"startTime":2517.036,"endTime":2520.256,"body":"We internally in this way of working"},{"startTime":2517.036,"endTime":2520.256,"body":"when you're matrixed and you have"},{"startTime":2520.266,"endTime":2522.096,"body":"skill sets that are focused elsewhere."},{"startTime":2522.426,"endTime":2526.466,"body":"this can apply to anything let's just say"},{"startTime":2522.426,"endTime":2526.466,"body":"you have a customer meeting and customers"},{"startTime":2526.466,"endTime":2528.586,"body":"talking about potentially what they're."},{"startTime":2528.851,"endTime":2532.421,"body":"Product journey looks like you know,"},{"startTime":2528.851,"endTime":2532.421,"body":"maybe not immediate, but going forward."},{"startTime":2532.721,"endTime":2536.621,"body":"And you don't have UX people available"},{"startTime":2532.721,"endTime":2536.621,"body":"for that meeting because they've"},{"startTime":2536.621,"endTime":2539.421,"body":"rolled off your team and now you"},{"startTime":2536.621,"endTime":2539.421,"body":"have this meeting for the next phase."},{"startTime":2539.571,"endTime":2540.931,"body":"This can happen throughout."},{"startTime":2541.011,"endTime":2545.301,"body":"I think it's a real challenge to try and"},{"startTime":2541.011,"endTime":2545.301,"body":"do that as opposed to having the skills on"},{"startTime":2545.301,"endTime":2549.131,"body":"the team or have that person on the team,"},{"startTime":2545.301,"endTime":2549.131,"body":"you're not reaching for that then, right?"},{"startTime":2549.181,"endTime":2550.421,"body":"They're already in the team."},{"startTime":2550.431,"endTime":2552.681,"body":"Project flexibility and scaling."},{"startTime":2552.831,"endTime":2555.851,"body":"Now, if you're going to say scaling"},{"startTime":2552.831,"endTime":2555.851,"body":"down, I understand like returning"},{"startTime":2555.891,"endTime":2557.861,"body":"resources to the pool, I get that."},{"startTime":2558.011,"endTime":2560.611,"body":"But if you're talking about scaling"},{"startTime":2558.011,"endTime":2560.611,"body":"up well, if your project becomes"},{"startTime":2560.661,"endTime":2563.531,"body":"wildly successful and brings in more"},{"startTime":2560.661,"endTime":2563.531,"body":"money or whatever, then it's easier to"},{"startTime":2563.531,"endTime":2567.581,"body":"add people To decide what skill they"},{"startTime":2563.531,"endTime":2567.581,"body":"need more of and just hire on that"},{"startTime":2567.581,"endTime":2569.771,"body":"project from that project's margins."},{"startTime":2569.911,"endTime":2573.361,"body":"I understand you saying, well,"},{"startTime":2569.911,"endTime":2573.361,"body":"I need to hire, and let's say"},{"startTime":2573.391,"endTime":2577.491,"body":"I need to hire a data scientist"},{"startTime":2573.391,"endTime":2577.491,"body":"because everyone's using AI ML now."},{"startTime":2577.561,"endTime":2583.121,"body":"And it's like, we want to include that in"},{"startTime":2577.561,"endTime":2583.121,"body":"our products and we don't have any AI ML."},{"startTime":2583.271,"endTime":2584.441,"body":"People on the team right now."},{"startTime":2584.451,"endTime":2585.901,"body":"We have no data scientists on the team."},{"startTime":2585.901,"endTime":2588.141,"body":"So we want to hire one, add them"},{"startTime":2585.901,"endTime":2588.141,"body":"to the team for the first time."},{"startTime":2588.411,"endTime":2592.011,"body":"Then I understand now I'm"},{"startTime":2588.411,"endTime":2592.011,"body":"approaching a shared services."},{"startTime":2592.161,"endTime":2593.601,"body":"For help in hiring."},{"startTime":2593.801,"endTime":2598.401,"body":"I don't know what a good AI ML"},{"startTime":2593.801,"endTime":2598.401,"body":"engineer or data scientist looks like."},{"startTime":2598.591,"endTime":2598.931,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2598.971,"endTime":2603.601,"body":"So now I do need to pay for some"},{"startTime":2598.971,"endTime":2603.601,"body":"coaching or for someone to be included"},{"startTime":2603.651,"endTime":2605.291,"body":"in the process until we hire somebody."},{"startTime":2605.441,"endTime":2609.981,"body":"And maybe to help this person or whatever,"},{"startTime":2605.441,"endTime":2609.981,"body":"to bring them up to speed or whatever, But"},{"startTime":2610.041,"endTime":2614.351,"body":"that's a little bit different than, paying"},{"startTime":2610.041,"endTime":2614.351,"body":"for coaching and assistance in hiring."},{"startTime":2614.551,"endTime":2615.421,"body":"It is different."},{"startTime":2615.421,"endTime":2619.221,"body":"I don't know how often you've seen that"},{"startTime":2615.421,"endTime":2619.221,"body":"actually happen at work, the concept is"},{"startTime":2619.371,"endTime":2623.841,"body":"definitely valid, and I think if people"},{"startTime":2619.371,"endTime":2623.841,"body":"try it, they'll find that it is quite"},{"startTime":2623.841,"endTime":2626.911,"body":"effective, When you're hiring skill"},{"startTime":2623.841,"endTime":2626.911,"body":"sets that are scarce to begin with."},{"startTime":2626.911,"endTime":2627.221,"body":"I mean, A."},{"startTime":2627.271,"endTime":2627.391,"body":"I."},{"startTime":2627.391,"endTime":2627.521,"body":"M."},{"startTime":2627.521,"endTime":2627.661,"body":"L."},{"startTime":2627.661,"endTime":2628.591,"body":"Is a great example."},{"startTime":2628.741,"endTime":2631.721,"body":"There's not a whole lot of great,"},{"startTime":2628.741,"endTime":2631.721,"body":"very good data scientists out there."},{"startTime":2631.836,"endTime":2633.486,"body":"you can't just pick them up off the shelf."},{"startTime":2633.496,"endTime":2633.966,"body":"Good ones."},{"startTime":2634.306,"endTime":2638.586,"body":"Not, not self titled AIML people"},{"startTime":2634.306,"endTime":2638.586,"body":"that have been doing AIML since 2001."},{"startTime":2638.736,"endTime":2642.046,"body":"not a lot of, it's like the agilists that"},{"startTime":2638.736,"endTime":2642.046,"body":"say I've been doing agile for 30 years"},{"startTime":2642.276,"endTime":2645.996,"body":"or product managers that have product"},{"startTime":2642.276,"endTime":2645.996,"body":"manager on their resume from 2004."},{"startTime":2646.006,"endTime":2646.866,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2647.086,"endTime":2651.526,"body":"it's good that if companies could consider"},{"startTime":2647.086,"endTime":2651.526,"body":"this as a adjunct model, you don't have to"},{"startTime":2651.526,"endTime":2656.436,"body":"throw out everything and just adopt this,"},{"startTime":2651.526,"endTime":2656.436,"body":"but try this also and see how it works."},{"startTime":2656.626,"endTime":2659.633,"body":"I'd be very interested in seeing"},{"startTime":2656.626,"endTime":2659.633,"body":"studies like that, or even anecdotes."},{"startTime":2659.633,"endTime":2659.996,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2659.996,"endTime":2662.266,"body":"So you're listening and"},{"startTime":2659.996,"endTime":2662.266,"body":"you have come across this."},{"startTime":2662.296,"endTime":2662.996,"body":"Please let us know."},{"startTime":2663.156,"endTime":2666.146,"body":"the other one that I wanted to bring up,"},{"startTime":2663.156,"endTime":2666.146,"body":"I want to talk about this one because I"},{"startTime":2666.146,"endTime":2670.476,"body":"remember this one from early in my career"},{"startTime":2666.146,"endTime":2670.476,"body":"of so early in my career, I joined the QA"},{"startTime":2670.476,"endTime":2673.846,"body":"department and the QA department and the"},{"startTime":2670.476,"endTime":2673.846,"body":"development department were kept separate."},{"startTime":2673.856,"endTime":2677.266,"body":"They had their own manager and the"},{"startTime":2673.856,"endTime":2677.266,"body":"managers were peers in the organization."},{"startTime":2677.416,"endTime":2681.306,"body":"And they were set up intentionally"},{"startTime":2677.416,"endTime":2681.306,"body":"like that because the idea was that"},{"startTime":2681.366,"endTime":2685.416,"body":"if QA people were kept separate and"},{"startTime":2681.366,"endTime":2685.416,"body":"assigned to shared services to the"},{"startTime":2685.426,"endTime":2690.173,"body":"development teams, they could be seen"},{"startTime":2685.426,"endTime":2690.173,"body":"as objective to the development work"},{"startTime":2690.173,"endTime":2694.026,"body":"because development was incented on speed"},{"startTime":2690.173,"endTime":2694.026,"body":"to delivery and getting things out the"},{"startTime":2694.026,"endTime":2697.038,"body":"door fast and QA was incented on QA."},{"startTime":2697.038,"endTime":2700.618,"body":"Escape defects and a whole bunch of"},{"startTime":2697.038,"endTime":2700.618,"body":"the quality as quality, the actual"},{"startTime":2700.618,"endTime":2704.678,"body":"quality of the software bugs coming"},{"startTime":2700.618,"endTime":2704.678,"body":"back in from the field that bugs being"},{"startTime":2704.678,"endTime":2709.758,"body":"reported from different segments So"},{"startTime":2704.678,"endTime":2709.758,"body":"the idea was if we kept this pool"},{"startTime":2709.758,"endTime":2714.528,"body":"of people outside of the reporting"},{"startTime":2709.758,"endTime":2714.528,"body":"structure they could be empowered to be"},{"startTime":2714.528,"endTime":2716.418,"body":"objective as a key part of their job."},{"startTime":2716.568,"endTime":2716.898,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2716.948,"endTime":2719.468,"body":"I've heard and seen"},{"startTime":2716.948,"endTime":2719.468,"body":"that argument play out."},{"startTime":2719.588,"endTime":2722.788,"body":"But the question I'd have is this,"},{"startTime":2719.588,"endTime":2722.788,"body":"why wouldn't those QA people."},{"startTime":2724.123,"endTime":2725.223,"body":"Be just as objective."},{"startTime":2725.263,"endTime":2726.723,"body":"They're part of the team instead."},{"startTime":2726.873,"endTime":2728.783,"body":"I mean, so that's half of my question."},{"startTime":2728.783,"endTime":2732.833,"body":"The other half of my question is, what's"},{"startTime":2728.783,"endTime":2732.833,"body":"wrong with your teams that you can't"},{"startTime":2732.833,"endTime":2734.233,"body":"just point out something that's wrong?"},{"startTime":2734.243,"endTime":2737.343,"body":"And shouldn't the whole development"},{"startTime":2734.243,"endTime":2737.343,"body":"team be concerned with quality?"},{"startTime":2737.493,"endTime":2741.883,"body":"not just those people with the Q in"},{"startTime":2737.493,"endTime":2741.883,"body":"their titles no, everyone's responsible"},{"startTime":2741.883,"endTime":2744.723,"body":"and accountable for the highest"},{"startTime":2741.883,"endTime":2744.723,"body":"quality product we put out there."},{"startTime":2745.003,"endTime":2748.153,"body":"I think everyone was concerned"},{"startTime":2745.003,"endTime":2748.153,"body":"with not being shot because"},{"startTime":2748.153,"endTime":2749.543,"body":"that was a shoot the messenger."},{"startTime":2749.793,"endTime":2753.483,"body":"Of course, that culture will be, get"},{"startTime":2749.793,"endTime":2753.483,"body":"those kinds of structures, right."},{"startTime":2753.723,"endTime":2754.663,"body":"And vice versa."},{"startTime":2754.693,"endTime":2756.823,"body":"Those structures will"},{"startTime":2754.693,"endTime":2756.823,"body":"give you those behaviors."},{"startTime":2756.973,"endTime":2761.093,"body":"I mean, although I could apply this again,"},{"startTime":2756.973,"endTime":2761.093,"body":"DevOps, I could apply this If DevOps"},{"startTime":2761.243,"endTime":2765.203,"body":"sends something through the pipeline and"},{"startTime":2761.243,"endTime":2765.203,"body":"one of the alarms goes off or one of the"},{"startTime":2765.353,"endTime":2768.863,"body":"automated tests fails or something like"},{"startTime":2765.353,"endTime":2768.863,"body":"that through the pipeline, then the DevOps"},{"startTime":2768.893,"endTime":2772.043,"body":"team will kick it back to the individual"},{"startTime":2768.893,"endTime":2772.043,"body":"team that contributed that release."},{"startTime":2772.193,"endTime":2773.983,"body":"And you know, the DevOps team will."},{"startTime":2774.133,"endTime":2775.733,"body":"Be the quote gatekeeper boy."},{"startTime":2775.733,"endTime":2778.753,"body":"I haven't heard that one in years"},{"startTime":2775.733,"endTime":2778.753,"body":"They'll be the gatekeeper to basically"},{"startTime":2778.763,"endTime":2782.203,"body":"approve and reject Yeah, and that"},{"startTime":2778.763,"endTime":2782.203,"body":"seems like an overhead to me, you"},{"startTime":2782.203,"endTime":2783.493,"body":"know at the best of times, right?"},{"startTime":2783.493,"endTime":2787.963,"body":"It is an overhead because I remember"},{"startTime":2783.493,"endTime":2787.963,"body":"doing that job as a qa I would"},{"startTime":2788.223,"endTime":2791.743,"body":"advance the release pipeline and if"},{"startTime":2788.223,"endTime":2791.743,"body":"something failed there were my tests."},{"startTime":2791.893,"endTime":2795.053,"body":"So if one of my tests failed, I would"},{"startTime":2791.893,"endTime":2795.053,"body":"just like, what am I going to do?"},{"startTime":2795.073,"endTime":2795.913,"body":"Override my own test?"},{"startTime":2795.913,"endTime":2796.593,"body":"No, of course I'm not."},{"startTime":2796.593,"endTime":2797.643,"body":"I'm going to stop the release."},{"startTime":2797.673,"endTime":2798.693,"body":"I'm going to stop the pipeline."},{"startTime":2798.843,"endTime":2801.933,"body":"I'm going to let the failure happen,"},{"startTime":2798.843,"endTime":2801.933,"body":"roll everything back because all that"},{"startTime":2801.933,"endTime":2805.643,"body":"stuff happens automatically, and then"},{"startTime":2801.933,"endTime":2805.643,"body":"analyze why the failure happened, go"},{"startTime":2805.663,"endTime":2809.283,"body":"manually test it, see if I can recreate"},{"startTime":2805.663,"endTime":2809.283,"body":"it, figure out the automation that failed."},{"startTime":2809.433,"endTime":2811.453,"body":"That's the shortest path"},{"startTime":2809.433,"endTime":2811.453,"body":"to resolution, right?"},{"startTime":2811.453,"endTime":2814.473,"body":"So instead of having somebody as an"},{"startTime":2811.453,"endTime":2814.473,"body":"interim saying, Hey, it's failed."},{"startTime":2814.473,"endTime":2817.493,"body":"Must be one of your something,"},{"startTime":2814.473,"endTime":2817.493,"body":"your code, go figure it out."},{"startTime":2817.493,"endTime":2819.133,"body":"Now I have five developers, right?"},{"startTime":2819.343,"endTime":2822.363,"body":"So now you're trying to figure out"},{"startTime":2819.343,"endTime":2822.363,"body":"like which contribution broke it."},{"startTime":2822.523,"endTime":2827.333,"body":"Assuming that you don't have a system set"},{"startTime":2822.523,"endTime":2827.333,"body":"up where every time you merge, there's"},{"startTime":2827.333,"endTime":2829.103,"body":"a trigger test that happens, right?"},{"startTime":2829.313,"endTime":2830.423,"body":"Including full regression."},{"startTime":2830.423,"endTime":2833.767,"body":"That way you know, what broke"},{"startTime":2830.423,"endTime":2833.767,"body":"it was the last merge, but."},{"startTime":2833.767,"endTime":2837.513,"body":"I was surprised at how many teams"},{"startTime":2833.767,"endTime":2837.513,"body":"don't even have that, right?"},{"startTime":2837.663,"endTime":2840.073,"body":"Branching and main trunk,"},{"startTime":2837.663,"endTime":2840.073,"body":"all those concepts are"},{"startTime":2840.183,"endTime":2842.173,"body":"sometimes even being followed."},{"startTime":2842.323,"endTime":2845.293,"body":"But yeah, DevOps seems to me like at the"},{"startTime":2842.323,"endTime":2845.293,"body":"end of the day, all you're really doing"},{"startTime":2845.293,"endTime":2849.323,"body":"is just executing scripts to deploy things"},{"startTime":2845.293,"endTime":2849.323,"body":"into various environments and pipelines."},{"startTime":2849.323,"endTime":2850.473,"body":"Why can't the team members do that?"},{"startTime":2850.763,"endTime":2852.193,"body":"What you just threw out."},{"startTime":2852.203,"endTime":2855.503,"body":"Probably we'll get the majority of"},{"startTime":2852.203,"endTime":2855.503,"body":"the pushback because the majority"},{"startTime":2855.513,"endTime":2857.073,"body":"of places that, that, that."},{"startTime":2857.223,"endTime":2860.543,"body":"That the orchestration of the pipeline"},{"startTime":2857.223,"endTime":2860.543,"body":"like that scene is somebody completely"},{"startTime":2860.543,"endTime":2864.353,"body":"somebody else's job and people"},{"startTime":2860.543,"endTime":2864.353,"body":"will dig in to be like, Oh, we've"},{"startTime":2864.363,"endTime":2865.823,"body":"got to have separation of duties."},{"startTime":2865.823,"endTime":2868.663,"body":"You've got to have separation"},{"startTime":2865.823,"endTime":2868.663,"body":"responsibilities because you can't have"},{"startTime":2868.663,"endTime":2871.293,"body":"the one team just saying, Oh, we got"},{"startTime":2868.663,"endTime":2871.293,"body":"to have this out, got to have this out."},{"startTime":2871.293,"endTime":2874.743,"body":"Because again, the development team"},{"startTime":2871.293,"endTime":2874.743,"body":"is incented on speed when you, join"},{"startTime":2874.743,"endTime":2877.323,"body":"these skill sets to the development"},{"startTime":2874.743,"endTime":2877.323,"body":"team, there's a perception that."},{"startTime":2877.473,"endTime":2880.533,"body":"The development team's culture is"},{"startTime":2877.473,"endTime":2880.533,"body":"going to trump everyone else's culture."},{"startTime":2880.873,"endTime":2883.833,"body":"So that, that, that I'm"},{"startTime":2880.873,"endTime":2883.833,"body":"incented on speed delivery."},{"startTime":2883.833,"endTime":2885.753,"body":"I just want to get stuff"},{"startTime":2883.833,"endTime":2885.753,"body":"out as fast as possible."},{"startTime":2885.903,"endTime":2890.863,"body":"I don't know the customer's experience,"},{"startTime":2885.903,"endTime":2890.863,"body":"the quality of software, whether it"},{"startTime":2890.863,"endTime":2893.983,"body":"meets the goal that we're shooting"},{"startTime":2890.863,"endTime":2893.983,"body":"for or whatever, like all, all of"},{"startTime":2893.983,"endTime":2897.283,"body":"that is secondary to, can we get"},{"startTime":2893.983,"endTime":2897.283,"body":"stuff out as fast as possible?"},{"startTime":2897.553,"endTime":2900.403,"body":"And I would even say there are"},{"startTime":2897.553,"endTime":2900.403,"body":"people online that are talking"},{"startTime":2900.403,"endTime":2902.423,"body":"about speed is a number one issue."},{"startTime":2902.573,"endTime":2905.383,"body":"They'll say the ability to release fast."},{"startTime":2905.583,"endTime":2908.463,"body":"Is the number one issue because they"},{"startTime":2905.583,"endTime":2908.463,"body":"say, well, even if you break something,"},{"startTime":2908.613,"endTime":2911.573,"body":"you got to be able to iterate and"},{"startTime":2908.613,"endTime":2911.573,"body":"release fast because then you can"},{"startTime":2911.583,"endTime":2914.843,"body":"release a fix fast and you're, Oh,"},{"startTime":2911.583,"endTime":2914.843,"body":"you didn't release something of value."},{"startTime":2914.853,"endTime":2915.833,"body":"You can do it fast."},{"startTime":2915.993,"endTime":2917.793,"body":"So like speed is the most important thing."},{"startTime":2917.813,"endTime":2919.953,"body":"People are online lobbying"},{"startTime":2917.813,"endTime":2919.953,"body":"for that right now."},{"startTime":2920.103,"endTime":2923.973,"body":"I'd love to figure out from a customer"},{"startTime":2920.103,"endTime":2923.973,"body":"perspective, would they rather see"},{"startTime":2923.973,"endTime":2927.993,"body":"something fast, even if it's a dubious"},{"startTime":2923.973,"endTime":2927.993,"body":"quality, or would they rather see"},{"startTime":2927.993,"endTime":2931.743,"body":"something a little slower, but it's a good"},{"startTime":2927.993,"endTime":2931.743,"body":"quality that they can consume right away?"},{"startTime":2931.993,"endTime":2933.853,"body":"I don't know the answer,"},{"startTime":2931.993,"endTime":2933.853,"body":"but I'd love to know."},{"startTime":2933.853,"endTime":2936.133,"body":"I 100 percent agree with you."},{"startTime":2936.223,"endTime":2939.613,"body":"I would think that those people"},{"startTime":2936.223,"endTime":2939.613,"body":"expressing that number one, probably"},{"startTime":2939.613,"endTime":2942.273,"body":"come from a development background,"},{"startTime":2939.613,"endTime":2942.273,"body":"number two, they're probably not"},{"startTime":2942.303,"endTime":2943.623,"body":"asking that question to the customer."},{"startTime":2943.773,"endTime":2944.843,"body":"Yeah, I don't doubt that."},{"startTime":2944.913,"endTime":2946.143,"body":"I think they should be asking that though."},{"startTime":2946.143,"endTime":2948.073,"body":"They're just responding"},{"startTime":2946.143,"endTime":2948.073,"body":"to internal pressure."},{"startTime":2948.223,"endTime":2951.913,"body":"On which we'll always be pressing"},{"startTime":2948.223,"endTime":2951.913,"body":"development to get things done faster."},{"startTime":2952.063,"endTime":2952.243,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2952.293,"endTime":2953.743,"body":"Unfortunately, that's the reality."},{"startTime":2953.843,"endTime":2955.433,"body":"The final thing on this podcast,"},{"startTime":2955.583,"endTime":2958.083,"body":"I started with the org chart because"},{"startTime":2955.583,"endTime":2958.083,"body":"I think that's a great place to"},{"startTime":2958.083,"endTime":2959.643,"body":"start because that's the number one."},{"startTime":2959.803,"endTime":2963.968,"body":"that's like this is not worthy"},{"startTime":2959.803,"endTime":2963.968,"body":"of me thinking critically, right."},{"startTime":2964.118,"endTime":2968.068,"body":"I'm just going to repeat just, just parrot"},{"startTime":2964.118,"endTime":2968.068,"body":"whatever, like critical thinking, by the"},{"startTime":2968.068,"endTime":2970.188,"body":"way, should be a whole different podcast."},{"startTime":2970.188,"endTime":2973.218,"body":"Like that's, that's going to"},{"startTime":2970.188,"endTime":2973.218,"body":"be the Toyota way lean podcast."},{"startTime":2973.218,"endTime":2974.078,"body":"That's a good thing."},{"startTime":2974.088,"endTime":2977.838,"body":"You get like getting people to"},{"startTime":2974.088,"endTime":2977.838,"body":"questioning people in a way."},{"startTime":2977.988,"endTime":2981.858,"body":"That gets them to think critically"},{"startTime":2977.988,"endTime":2981.858,"body":"and as opposed to saying like, well,"},{"startTime":2981.858,"endTime":2983.018,"body":"that's what the org chart says."},{"startTime":2983.188,"endTime":2984.538,"body":"That's the way we've always done business."},{"startTime":2984.688,"endTime":2988.688,"body":"Once you have that skill to be able"},{"startTime":2984.688,"endTime":2988.688,"body":"to ask questions, to dig, and then you"},{"startTime":2988.688,"endTime":2990.168,"body":"don't need anybody can have that skill."},{"startTime":2990.208,"endTime":2991.298,"body":"You don't need to be a supervisor."},{"startTime":2991.298,"endTime":2995.018,"body":"Imagine anybody could have the skills"},{"startTime":2991.298,"endTime":2995.018,"body":"to, to just say like, Hey, you don't seem"},{"startTime":2995.018,"endTime":2996.428,"body":"to be thinking critically about this."},{"startTime":2996.678,"endTime":2998.788,"body":"Why don't you shift into"},{"startTime":2996.678,"endTime":2998.788,"body":"critical thinking mode?"},{"startTime":2998.938,"endTime":3001.268,"body":"think about this take a big"},{"startTime":2998.938,"endTime":3001.268,"body":"step back and think about it."},{"startTime":3001.538,"endTime":3003.308,"body":"There was a set of"},{"startTime":3001.538,"endTime":3003.308,"body":"questions to get you there."},{"startTime":3003.308,"endTime":3006.008,"body":"But it's a great topic for"},{"startTime":3003.308,"endTime":3006.008,"body":"a future podcast for sure."},{"startTime":3006.008,"endTime":3006.848,"body":"It's a really good one."},{"startTime":3006.848,"endTime":3009.698,"body":"It's a super interesting one, but"},{"startTime":3006.848,"endTime":3009.698,"body":"also I need to read the book again."},{"startTime":3009.728,"endTime":3012.998,"body":"I might have to get that book"},{"startTime":3009.728,"endTime":3012.998,"body":"to mark it up because it's,"},{"startTime":3013.058,"endTime":3014.628,"body":"that'll be a dense podcast."},{"startTime":3014.708,"endTime":3016.428,"body":"People talk about that in"},{"startTime":3014.708,"endTime":3016.428,"body":"the agile community a lot."},{"startTime":3016.578,"endTime":3020.508,"body":"But there's not lot of walkthroughs of"},{"startTime":3016.578,"endTime":3020.508,"body":"here's how it could be done with examples."},{"startTime":3020.658,"endTime":3023.398,"body":"And I feel I would need the book"},{"startTime":3020.658,"endTime":3023.398,"body":"on hand to walk through that."},{"startTime":3023.548,"endTime":3027.428,"body":"So the final category here that I"},{"startTime":3023.548,"endTime":3027.428,"body":"dipped into and then we may or may"},{"startTime":3027.428,"endTime":3030.928,"body":"not be returning from the tangent"},{"startTime":3027.428,"endTime":3030.928,"body":"is this shared services idea."},{"startTime":3030.928,"endTime":3033.208,"body":"we're not going to fund durable teams."},{"startTime":3033.208,"endTime":3035.268,"body":"We're not going to fund"},{"startTime":3033.208,"endTime":3035.268,"body":"fully cross functional teams."},{"startTime":3035.528,"endTime":3038.128,"body":"We're going to make you I was going"},{"startTime":3035.528,"endTime":3038.128,"body":"to say big, we're gonna make you"},{"startTime":3038.138,"endTime":3040.748,"body":"beg for a shared services and we're"},{"startTime":3038.138,"endTime":3040.748,"body":"gonna, we're gonna make you write your"},{"startTime":3040.748,"endTime":3044.888,"body":"Congressman and hope that the funding"},{"startTime":3040.748,"endTime":3044.888,"body":"comes in for your shared service."},{"startTime":3045.203,"endTime":3048.093,"body":"Before all your deadlines pass"},{"startTime":3045.203,"endTime":3048.093,"body":"and the business opportunity"},{"startTime":3048.093,"endTime":3049.583,"body":"passes, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":3049.833,"endTime":3052.233,"body":"it's all a bit short"},{"startTime":3049.833,"endTime":3052.233,"body":"term thinking, isn't it?"},{"startTime":3052.243,"endTime":3054.053,"body":"It's very much so, and"},{"startTime":3052.243,"endTime":3054.053,"body":"I think you nailed it."},{"startTime":3054.053,"endTime":3055.283,"body":"It is begging, really."},{"startTime":3055.563,"endTime":3059.623,"body":"It's like, I'm gonna go stand on this"},{"startTime":3055.563,"endTime":3059.623,"body":"street corner or intersection with a"},{"startTime":3059.623,"endTime":3063.983,"body":"bowl and hopefully, resource I need"},{"startTime":3059.623,"endTime":3063.983,"body":"now, resource, will fall into my bowl."},{"startTime":3064.233,"endTime":3065.183,"body":"it's terrible."},{"startTime":3065.223,"endTime":3069.393,"body":"I know that there are projects out there"},{"startTime":3065.223,"endTime":3069.393,"body":"that are suffering because you don't have"},{"startTime":3069.393,"endTime":3073.053,"body":"the right person available at the right"},{"startTime":3069.393,"endTime":3073.053,"body":"time for the right business opportunity."},{"startTime":3073.353,"endTime":3077.693,"body":"And it passes or it wanes at least if it"},{"startTime":3073.353,"endTime":3077.693,"body":"doesn't completely you know, wither away."},{"startTime":3077.843,"endTime":3082.163,"body":"So, yeah, I mean, this is causing"},{"startTime":3077.843,"endTime":3082.163,"body":"real losses of real dollar"},{"startTime":3082.163,"endTime":3085.783,"body":"terms and yet it's not something"},{"startTime":3082.163,"endTime":3085.783,"body":"that we pay much attention to."},{"startTime":3085.933,"endTime":3086.523,"body":"Why is that?"},{"startTime":3087.983,"endTime":3089.143,"body":"Oh, he's done it that way, Brian."},{"startTime":3089.143,"endTime":3092.528,"body":"Oh, I thought, I thought, I thought"},{"startTime":3089.143,"endTime":3092.528,"body":"you were going to say like correct."},{"startTime":3092.688,"endTime":3096.028,"body":"First of all we also would have accepted"},{"startTime":3092.688,"endTime":3096.028,"body":"let me break out my laundry list."},{"startTime":3096.258,"endTime":3100.338,"body":"We also would have accepted, we don't"},{"startTime":3096.258,"endTime":3100.338,"body":"know how to financially value the"},{"startTime":3100.348,"endTime":3102.818,"body":"cost of missed business opportunities."},{"startTime":3102.918,"endTime":3103.908,"body":"We don't even look at that."},{"startTime":3104.158,"endTime":3106.708,"body":"Unfortunately, listen, well, what"},{"startTime":3104.158,"endTime":3106.708,"body":"I have learned is if you don't"},{"startTime":3106.708,"endTime":3108.308,"body":"look at a metric, it doesn't exist."},{"startTime":3108.458,"endTime":3109.458,"body":"That should be a law."},{"startTime":3109.608,"endTime":3110.288,"body":"Brian's law."},{"startTime":3110.438,"endTime":3112.968,"body":"Don't look at the metric and"},{"startTime":3110.438,"endTime":3112.968,"body":"it can't cause you any problem."},{"startTime":3113.098,"endTime":3114.368,"body":"If you can't see it, it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":3114.518,"endTime":3119.798,"body":"we just went through several categories"},{"startTime":3114.518,"endTime":3119.798,"body":"of objections or reasons people will"},{"startTime":3119.798,"endTime":3122.588,"body":"use to lobby for share services."},{"startTime":3122.738,"endTime":3126.528,"body":"We want to do a companion podcast,"},{"startTime":3122.738,"endTime":3126.528,"body":"a follow on podcast to this."},{"startTime":3126.538,"endTime":3127.598,"body":"I don't know if it'll be next."},{"startTime":3127.598,"endTime":3130.868,"body":"I don't know exactly when we're going to"},{"startTime":3127.598,"endTime":3130.868,"body":"do it, but the idea is it'd be really cool"},{"startTime":3130.868,"endTime":3135.998,"body":"to put together a podcast that's in the"},{"startTime":3130.868,"endTime":3135.998,"body":"same format of all the Arguing points."},{"startTime":3136.288,"endTime":3139.678,"body":"That will be used against you, but in the"},{"startTime":3136.288,"endTime":3139.678,"body":"opposite direction, things that you can"},{"startTime":3139.678,"endTime":3144.978,"body":"use to say, Hey, before we talk more about"},{"startTime":3139.678,"endTime":3144.978,"body":"shared services, let's talk about how we"},{"startTime":3144.988,"endTime":3147.848,"body":"move more fully to fully durable teams."},{"startTime":3147.998,"endTime":3148.218,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3148.218,"endTime":3151.668,"body":"I think that's going to be the, the"},{"startTime":3148.218,"endTime":3151.668,"body":"value added podcast on top of this one."},{"startTime":3151.668,"endTime":3154.498,"body":"So it may happen really"},{"startTime":3151.668,"endTime":3154.498,"body":"quickly or it may not."},{"startTime":3154.708,"endTime":3155.718,"body":"Definitely look for that."},{"startTime":3155.758,"endTime":3159.688,"body":"Through the magic of editing,"},{"startTime":3155.758,"endTime":3159.688,"body":"all things are possible."},{"startTime":3159.838,"endTime":3161.078,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":3161.078,"endTime":3165.238,"body":"Well, listen if you've worked in an"},{"startTime":3161.078,"endTime":3165.238,"body":"environment where you have shared services"},{"startTime":3165.238,"endTime":3169.268,"body":"at work, let us know what your experience"},{"startTime":3165.238,"endTime":3169.268,"body":"has been like, what you really didn't like"},{"startTime":3169.278,"endTime":3171.173,"body":"about that and what you might want to do."},{"startTime":3171.323,"endTime":3173.733,"body":"Change if you had Harry Potter's wand."},{"startTime":3173.743,"endTime":3178.333,"body":"I was going to say and any other arguing"},{"startTime":3173.743,"endTime":3178.333,"body":"point that's been used to lobby for"},{"startTime":3178.333,"endTime":3179.753,"body":"shared services that we didn't cover."},{"startTime":3179.913,"endTime":3181.263,"body":"I'm very interested in hearing."},{"startTime":3181.413,"endTime":3181.743,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":3181.763,"endTime":3182.603,"body":"Well, thank you again."},{"startTime":3182.613,"endTime":3184.523,"body":"And don't forget to like, and subscribe."}]}