{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.53,"endTime":4.51,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.55,"endTime":7.68,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.95,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":14.338,"body":"I wanted to have a podcast about"},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":14.338,"body":"technical debt and I thought the"},{"startTime":14.498,"endTime":18.658,"body":"best person to invite for the"},{"startTime":14.498,"endTime":18.658,"body":"podcast technical debt was Alex."},{"startTime":18.828,"endTime":19.638,"body":"Welcome back, Alex."},{"startTime":19.927,"endTime":20.458,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":20.458,"endTime":22.778,"body":"I don't know why you thought I"},{"startTime":20.458,"endTime":22.778,"body":"would be the best person to talk"},{"startTime":22.787,"endTime":24.327,"body":"about it, but hey, I'm here."},{"startTime":24.327,"endTime":24.687,"body":"Why not?"},{"startTime":24.747,"endTime":28.417,"body":"I needed, I needed someone who"},{"startTime":24.747,"endTime":28.417,"body":"has done software engineering."},{"startTime":28.567,"endTime":32.047,"body":"And someone who has done all"},{"startTime":28.567,"endTime":32.047,"body":"the prioritization that product"},{"startTime":32.047,"endTime":35.197,"body":"management plays on TV and, and"},{"startTime":32.047,"endTime":35.197,"body":"someone who can make hard calls."},{"startTime":35.207,"endTime":35.857,"body":"That's what I need."},{"startTime":35.857,"endTime":37.767,"body":"I needed someone who is an expert."},{"startTime":37.917,"endTime":40.217,"body":"And for this podcast,"},{"startTime":37.917,"endTime":40.217,"body":"Alex, you are that expert."},{"startTime":40.457,"endTime":41.047,"body":"Oh, great."},{"startTime":41.047,"endTime":42.167,"body":"Stubborn and opinionated."},{"startTime":42.217,"endTime":42.497,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":42.537,"endTime":43.087,"body":"I like that."},{"startTime":43.237,"endTime":43.847,"body":"I like it too."},{"startTime":43.997,"endTime":47.777,"body":"That makes three of us probably, but"},{"startTime":43.997,"endTime":47.777,"body":"can we start with defining what is"},{"startTime":47.977,"endTime":51.807,"body":"technical debt for those of us in the"},{"startTime":47.977,"endTime":51.807,"body":"audience that don't know what it is?"},{"startTime":51.957,"endTime":54.927,"body":"We're going to use the ward"},{"startTime":51.957,"endTime":54.927,"body":"Cunningham version as soon as the"},{"startTime":54.927,"endTime":56.407,"body":"all this nonsense gets Off my screen."},{"startTime":56.617,"endTime":60.387,"body":"Basically when he was doing refactoring,"},{"startTime":56.617,"endTime":60.387,"body":"trying to sell that to the management"},{"startTime":60.497,"endTime":62.967,"body":"to do as part of the budgeting."},{"startTime":63.167,"endTime":65.657,"body":"So I'm going to use a"},{"startTime":63.167,"endTime":65.657,"body":"product plan as a resource."},{"startTime":65.807,"endTime":68.387,"body":"I'm not connected to product"},{"startTime":65.807,"endTime":68.387,"body":"plan in any way, shape, or form."},{"startTime":68.687,"endTime":70.877,"body":"But also they're not Jira."},{"startTime":71.617,"endTime":72.577,"body":"So there we go."},{"startTime":72.727,"endTime":75.917,"body":"So it says technical debt is a"},{"startTime":72.727,"endTime":75.917,"body":"phrase originally coined by software"},{"startTime":75.917,"endTime":80.187,"body":"developer, Ward Cunningham who is one"},{"startTime":75.917,"endTime":80.187,"body":"of the Agile manifesto signatories."},{"startTime":80.437,"endTime":83.677,"body":"He first used a metaphor to explain"},{"startTime":80.437,"endTime":83.677,"body":"to non technical stakeholders"},{"startTime":83.707,"endTime":87.807,"body":"at YCash, Why resources needed"},{"startTime":83.707,"endTime":87.807,"body":"to be budgeted for refactoring."},{"startTime":87.897,"endTime":90.197,"body":"Hang on, we're gonna put a pin"},{"startTime":87.897,"endTime":90.197,"body":"in refactoring for a second."},{"startTime":90.347,"endTime":93.417,"body":"His quote years later Cunningham"},{"startTime":90.347,"endTime":93.417,"body":"described how he initially came up"},{"startTime":93.417,"endTime":95.807,"body":"with the technical debt metaphor."},{"startTime":96.017,"endTime":99.527,"body":"Quote, with borrowed money, you can do"},{"startTime":96.017,"endTime":99.527,"body":"something sooner than you might otherwise."},{"startTime":99.832,"endTime":102.872,"body":"But until you pay back that"},{"startTime":99.832,"endTime":102.872,"body":"money, you'll be paying interest."},{"startTime":103.092,"endTime":104.922,"body":"I thought borrowing money was a good idea."},{"startTime":105.052,"endTime":107.112,"body":"I thought that rushing"},{"startTime":105.052,"endTime":107.112,"body":"software out the door to"},{"startTime":107.112,"endTime":110.842,"body":"get some experience with it was a good"},{"startTime":107.112,"endTime":110.842,"body":"idea, but that of course, you would"},{"startTime":110.842,"endTime":115.082,"body":"eventually go back and as you learn things"},{"startTime":110.842,"endTime":115.082,"body":"about the software, you would repay."},{"startTime":115.322,"endTime":118.242,"body":"That loan by refactoring"},{"startTime":115.322,"endTime":118.242,"body":"the program to reflect your"},{"startTime":118.242,"endTime":120.322,"body":"experience as you acquired it."},{"startTime":120.472,"endTime":125.062,"body":"So he's saying we're gonna make some"},{"startTime":120.472,"endTime":125.062,"body":"choices now, and incur a cost later."},{"startTime":125.212,"endTime":130.272,"body":"Basically he's using debt as an"},{"startTime":125.212,"endTime":130.272,"body":"allegory for design decisions, I guess?"},{"startTime":130.422,"endTime":131.912,"body":"It's not really about debt."},{"startTime":132.062,"endTime":133.592,"body":"It's more about interest."},{"startTime":133.782,"endTime":139.322,"body":"Technical debt is one of those things that"},{"startTime":133.782,"endTime":139.322,"body":"is just basically a result of a decision."},{"startTime":139.472,"endTime":143.532,"body":"But while you made the decision not"},{"startTime":139.472,"endTime":143.532,"body":"to tackle that debt, you are incurring"},{"startTime":143.562,"endTime":148.212,"body":"the cost of interest, That may be in"},{"startTime":143.562,"endTime":148.212,"body":"the form of bugs, that may be in the"},{"startTime":148.212,"endTime":153.382,"body":"form of performance, that may be in the"},{"startTime":148.212,"endTime":153.382,"body":"form of difficult to implement things"},{"startTime":153.382,"endTime":155.972,"body":"on top, or in the form of support."},{"startTime":156.122,"endTime":159.282,"body":"So the interest is more"},{"startTime":156.122,"endTime":159.282,"body":"important rather than the debt."},{"startTime":159.432,"endTime":162.812,"body":"Because if you don't have to invest"},{"startTime":159.432,"endTime":162.812,"body":"into something, because it's good"},{"startTime":162.812,"endTime":164.952,"body":"enough, I think that's a good deal."},{"startTime":165.102,"endTime":167.012,"body":"But the interest is what's killing you."},{"startTime":167.162,"endTime":170.612,"body":"So imagine like earning a certain"},{"startTime":167.162,"endTime":170.612,"body":"type of income, but you're not"},{"startTime":170.612,"endTime":175.122,"body":"actually repaying the principal, so"},{"startTime":170.612,"endTime":175.122,"body":"you keep on incurring the interest."},{"startTime":175.272,"endTime":178.332,"body":"And while you're doing that, it"},{"startTime":175.272,"endTime":178.332,"body":"just shrinks what you're able"},{"startTime":178.332,"endTime":182.362,"body":"to do, because you're constantly"},{"startTime":178.332,"endTime":182.362,"body":"getting Distracted by that interest."},{"startTime":182.512,"endTime":185.982,"body":"You just named a bunch of categories"},{"startTime":182.512,"endTime":185.982,"body":"that are solid gold for anyone listening."},{"startTime":186.042,"endTime":189.322,"body":"The inability to grow"},{"startTime":186.042,"endTime":189.322,"body":"the inability to respond."},{"startTime":189.602,"endTime":192.942,"body":"I support , , yeah, the inability"},{"startTime":189.602,"endTime":192.942,"body":"to support what you have, like"},{"startTime":192.942,"endTime":194.032,"body":"at scale, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":194.032,"endTime":195.472,"body":"Think about the velocity, right?"},{"startTime":195.622,"endTime":199.372,"body":"So your team is operating at a certain"},{"startTime":195.622,"endTime":199.372,"body":"type of velocity, but you know, a part"},{"startTime":199.372,"endTime":203.902,"body":"of the velocity constantly needs to be"},{"startTime":199.372,"endTime":203.902,"body":"dedicated towards managing performance"},{"startTime":203.902,"endTime":207.502,"body":"of this one thing that could have"},{"startTime":203.902,"endTime":207.502,"body":"been done better and perfect the"},{"startTime":207.502,"endTime":211.112,"body":"first time around, except we made a"},{"startTime":207.502,"endTime":211.112,"body":"decision that we were going to wait."},{"startTime":211.297,"endTime":215.077,"body":"So until we fix it correctly,"},{"startTime":211.297,"endTime":215.077,"body":"we will incur that cost."},{"startTime":215.227,"endTime":220.067,"body":"And that's part of the pain that"},{"startTime":215.227,"endTime":220.067,"body":"comes with a technical debt."},{"startTime":220.217,"endTime":222.457,"body":"You don't actually carry the debt itself."},{"startTime":222.607,"endTime":225.037,"body":"What you do carry is the"},{"startTime":222.607,"endTime":225.037,"body":"interest to that debt."},{"startTime":225.237,"endTime":228.367,"body":"a lot of people when they hear the"},{"startTime":225.237,"endTime":228.367,"body":"term technical debt, They immediately"},{"startTime":228.387,"endTime":230.077,"body":"think, Oh, that's a bad thing, right?"},{"startTime":230.227,"endTime":232.327,"body":"And I'm here to tell you that's"},{"startTime":230.227,"endTime":232.327,"body":"not necessarily the case."},{"startTime":232.477,"endTime":235.837,"body":"Technical debt doesn't necessarily"},{"startTime":232.477,"endTime":235.837,"body":"have to be a bad thing."},{"startTime":235.987,"endTime":240.017,"body":"The other thing people say is, Well,"},{"startTime":235.987,"endTime":240.017,"body":"it must be it must be messy code."},{"startTime":240.167,"endTime":241.537,"body":"You ended up with messy code."},{"startTime":241.687,"endTime":242.477,"body":"Yeah, guess what?"},{"startTime":242.627,"endTime":243.747,"body":"That's not technical debt."},{"startTime":243.777,"endTime":244.767,"body":"A mess is a mess."},{"startTime":244.817,"endTime":247.252,"body":"That doesn't necessarily"},{"startTime":244.817,"endTime":247.252,"body":"mean it's technical debt."},{"startTime":247.672,"endTime":251.262,"body":"So just get the concept clear"},{"startTime":247.672,"endTime":251.262,"body":"about what technical debt is."},{"startTime":251.262,"endTime":257.432,"body":"It's only, it's technical debt is"},{"startTime":251.262,"endTime":257.432,"body":"only relevant when it comes back in"},{"startTime":257.432,"endTime":259.452,"body":"some way, shape or form to hinder you."},{"startTime":259.582,"endTime":262.082,"body":"Messy code can still"},{"startTime":259.582,"endTime":262.082,"body":"be working code, right?"},{"startTime":262.332,"endTime":262.902,"body":"And that's fine."},{"startTime":262.902,"endTime":265.792,"body":"If you don't ever go back to it"},{"startTime":262.902,"endTime":265.792,"body":"and it's out there and that's fine."},{"startTime":265.942,"endTime":269.532,"body":"Next, next release, you're going"},{"startTime":265.942,"endTime":269.532,"body":"to refactor or do whatever."},{"startTime":269.657,"endTime":270.917,"body":"And it goes away."},{"startTime":271.067,"endTime":272.067,"body":"So it's not a mess."},{"startTime":272.217,"endTime":275.107,"body":"And I think this paper that"},{"startTime":272.217,"endTime":275.107,"body":"or this article, I guess my"},{"startTime":275.107,"endTime":276.657,"body":"product plan, they touch on that."},{"startTime":276.807,"endTime":280.707,"body":"You know, this reminds me of an"},{"startTime":276.807,"endTime":280.707,"body":"experience long time ago when I was a"},{"startTime":280.707,"endTime":285.597,"body":"tech lead, we had developers that updated"},{"startTime":280.707,"endTime":285.597,"body":"certain type of libraries in a code."},{"startTime":285.787,"endTime":287.797,"body":"They felt like, Oh, there's"},{"startTime":285.787,"endTime":287.797,"body":"something new out there."},{"startTime":287.797,"endTime":289.977,"body":"And they wouldn't tell anybody"},{"startTime":287.797,"endTime":289.977,"body":"about it and just update."},{"startTime":290.127,"endTime":292.887,"body":"And as soon as they happened,"},{"startTime":290.127,"endTime":292.887,"body":"the first thing that occurred"},{"startTime":292.927,"endTime":294.387,"body":"is bugs all over the place."},{"startTime":294.537,"endTime":298.587,"body":"Unpredictable behavior, things crashing,"},{"startTime":294.537,"endTime":298.587,"body":"failing without really knowing why."},{"startTime":298.737,"endTime":302.197,"body":"And one of the things that I always"},{"startTime":298.737,"endTime":302.197,"body":"try to address is the fact that you"},{"startTime":302.197,"endTime":305.987,"body":"kind of need a little bit of the"},{"startTime":302.197,"endTime":305.987,"body":"isolation, and you don't want to upgrade."},{"startTime":306.137,"endTime":307.557,"body":"Just for the sake of upgrading."},{"startTime":307.707,"endTime":309.697,"body":"And this is kind of the"},{"startTime":307.707,"endTime":309.697,"body":"point of the technical debt."},{"startTime":309.847,"endTime":314.597,"body":"Not everything that you delay doing"},{"startTime":309.847,"endTime":314.597,"body":"is that sometimes it's a healthy"},{"startTime":314.597,"endTime":316.017,"body":"decision to want to do that."},{"startTime":316.167,"endTime":320.277,"body":"A user doesn't really care what"},{"startTime":316.167,"endTime":320.277,"body":"happens after they push the button."},{"startTime":320.427,"endTime":323.407,"body":"They don't really care if it's library 1."},{"startTime":323.407,"endTime":325.657,"body":"that's doing the thing, as"},{"startTime":323.407,"endTime":325.657,"body":"long as it gets the job done."},{"startTime":325.807,"endTime":330.437,"body":"They don't care if the pigeon flies"},{"startTime":325.807,"endTime":330.437,"body":"out and carries the message you"},{"startTime":330.437,"endTime":334.687,"body":"know, in a analog format to somebody,"},{"startTime":330.437,"endTime":334.687,"body":"as long as it does it reliably"},{"startTime":334.687,"endTime":336.697,"body":"within a given amount of time."},{"startTime":336.977,"endTime":337.767,"body":"That's expected."},{"startTime":338.097,"endTime":342.887,"body":"So the nature of technical debt"},{"startTime":338.097,"endTime":342.887,"body":"and trying to solve it, I think"},{"startTime":342.887,"endTime":344.947,"body":"sometimes is misconstrued."},{"startTime":345.097,"endTime":348.397,"body":"You don't always need to address"},{"startTime":345.097,"endTime":348.397,"body":"it and it's not always the debt."},{"startTime":348.547,"endTime":352.237,"body":"So the question is again, for me, it's"},{"startTime":348.547,"endTime":352.237,"body":"always a question of the interest."},{"startTime":352.387,"endTime":355.897,"body":"What is it that we're suffering"},{"startTime":352.387,"endTime":355.897,"body":"while we're not addressing it?"},{"startTime":356.047,"endTime":360.067,"body":"Because if we're not suffering anything"},{"startTime":356.047,"endTime":360.067,"body":"at all, why does it need to be perfect?"},{"startTime":360.227,"endTime":360.787,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":360.787,"endTime":361.407,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":361.507,"endTime":362.307,"body":"It's technical debt."},{"startTime":362.322,"endTime":365.052,"body":"It doesn't have to be always"},{"startTime":362.322,"endTime":365.052,"body":"looked upon as being harmful."},{"startTime":365.202,"endTime":366.502,"body":"It can also be beneficial."},{"startTime":366.522,"endTime":370.382,"body":"It allows you to do things like get out"},{"startTime":366.522,"endTime":370.382,"body":"to market quicker, for example, right?"},{"startTime":370.532,"endTime":374.482,"body":"But the point is that technical"},{"startTime":370.532,"endTime":374.482,"body":"debt is an intentional thing."},{"startTime":374.832,"endTime":379.022,"body":"It doesn't just happen because if it"},{"startTime":374.832,"endTime":379.022,"body":"just happened, that's a mess, right?"},{"startTime":379.372,"endTime":381.392,"body":"Having a mess is never rational."},{"startTime":381.542,"endTime":382.152,"body":"It's a mess."},{"startTime":382.302,"endTime":386.602,"body":"It's based on unprofessionalism,"},{"startTime":382.302,"endTime":386.602,"body":"laziness, et cetera which basically"},{"startTime":386.602,"endTime":389.242,"body":"means you have no chance of paying"},{"startTime":386.602,"endTime":389.242,"body":"that mess back in the future."},{"startTime":389.262,"endTime":393.902,"body":"Technical debt, on the other hand, you can"},{"startTime":389.262,"endTime":393.902,"body":"decide to either pay back, pay back some,"},{"startTime":394.002,"endTime":395.762,"body":"pay back when, all of those decisions."},{"startTime":396.042,"endTime":398.782,"body":"So, what's the opposite of technical debt?"},{"startTime":398.882,"endTime":399.652,"body":"The opposite."},{"startTime":399.802,"endTime":401.312,"body":"I can give you the answer if you'd like."},{"startTime":401.422,"endTime":401.872,"body":"Please."},{"startTime":402.082,"endTime":402.962,"body":"Over engineering."},{"startTime":402.982,"endTime":404.012,"body":"Yeah, for sure, Right?"},{"startTime":404.052,"endTime":408.112,"body":"I was at an organization once that was an"},{"startTime":404.052,"endTime":408.112,"body":"engineering led organization, as opposed"},{"startTime":408.112,"endTime":410.692,"body":"to a visionary led versus sales led"},{"startTime":410.742,"endTime":414.902,"body":"And the engineering led organization,"},{"startTime":410.742,"endTime":414.902,"body":"they were always working on the next"},{"startTime":415.122,"endTime":419.582,"body":"cool gadget, basically, whether there's a"},{"startTime":415.122,"endTime":419.582,"body":"market for it, they had a strong vision."},{"startTime":419.817,"endTime":425.267,"body":"Build it and they will come attitude"},{"startTime":419.817,"endTime":425.267,"body":"about their products, which I mean, now"},{"startTime":425.317,"endTime":428.637,"body":"later in my career as product manager,"},{"startTime":425.317,"endTime":428.637,"body":"I'm like, Ooh, yeah, if you're really,"},{"startTime":428.637,"endTime":432.797,"body":"really in tune with your customers,"},{"startTime":428.637,"endTime":432.797,"body":"build it and they will come great, but"},{"startTime":432.867,"endTime":436.027,"body":"you really have to convince me like  you"},{"startTime":432.867,"endTime":436.027,"body":"have to show me that you're really that"},{"startTime":436.057,"endTime":439.597,"body":"in tune with your customers because most"},{"startTime":436.057,"endTime":439.597,"body":"organizations and engineering teams."},{"startTime":439.747,"endTime":442.217,"body":"They are not, they don't talk"},{"startTime":439.747,"endTime":442.217,"body":"to the customers that often."},{"startTime":442.367,"endTime":446.647,"body":"Well, sometimes the technical debt is"},{"startTime":442.367,"endTime":446.647,"body":"part of the features that are actually"},{"startTime":446.697,"endTime":450.057,"body":"in front of the users, but there are"},{"startTime":446.697,"endTime":450.057,"body":"other times it's something hidden away"},{"startTime":450.207,"endTime":455.017,"body":"in the code, something that addresses"},{"startTime":450.207,"endTime":455.017,"body":"the quote unquote illities, right?"},{"startTime":455.337,"endTime":459.217,"body":"Supportability maintainability,"},{"startTime":455.337,"endTime":459.217,"body":"scalability, all those other"},{"startTime":459.217,"endTime":460.517,"body":"things that are invisible."},{"startTime":460.667,"endTime":465.197,"body":"So this is the time when you"},{"startTime":460.667,"endTime":465.197,"body":"have to evaluate Does addressing"},{"startTime":465.197,"endTime":467.277,"body":"technical debt help my users?"},{"startTime":467.607,"endTime":468.937,"body":"And if the."},{"startTime":469.277,"endTime":470.547,"body":"Result is negligent."},{"startTime":470.697,"endTime":474.897,"body":"And if the result to the team, that"},{"startTime":470.697,"endTime":474.897,"body":"interest is not that significant,"},{"startTime":475.207,"endTime":476.937,"body":"you can carry that a lot longer."},{"startTime":476.937,"endTime":478.817,"body":"You don't need to tackle"},{"startTime":476.937,"endTime":478.817,"body":"it at the right time."},{"startTime":478.997,"endTime":482.707,"body":"now with what you just said, in"},{"startTime":478.997,"endTime":482.707,"body":"a normal product organization,"},{"startTime":482.927,"endTime":484.357,"body":"we have product managers, right?"},{"startTime":484.387,"endTime":485.647,"body":"We're not talking about a startup, Alex."},{"startTime":485.647,"endTime":488.007,"body":"Like we, congratulations,  do we scaled?"},{"startTime":488.027,"endTime":491.677,"body":"We're 500 people now  most of"},{"startTime":488.027,"endTime":491.677,"body":"our product people at the highest"},{"startTime":491.677,"endTime":493.007,"body":"tiers are not product people."},{"startTime":493.167,"endTime":495.107,"body":"Look forward to another"},{"startTime":493.167,"endTime":495.107,"body":"podcast on that topic."},{"startTime":495.407,"endTime":498.867,"body":"Most people that I think that would"},{"startTime":495.407,"endTime":498.867,"body":"listen to this podcast that are not"},{"startTime":498.867,"endTime":502.917,"body":"founders, I think their challenge"},{"startTime":498.867,"endTime":502.917,"body":"with, with this category is I"},{"startTime":502.917,"endTime":504.677,"body":"need to sell what you just said."},{"startTime":504.747,"endTime":506.697,"body":"I need to sell that to my management."},{"startTime":506.807,"endTime":511.437,"body":"If we're treating technical debt as"},{"startTime":506.807,"endTime":511.437,"body":"interests, these are line items of"},{"startTime":511.437,"endTime":515.687,"body":"interest that I do not care to pay"},{"startTime":511.437,"endTime":515.687,"body":"down now, but these are items that"},{"startTime":515.687,"endTime":518.377,"body":"if we pay down, we can vault ahead."},{"startTime":518.527,"endTime":522.457,"body":"Oh, how, how can I communicate through the"},{"startTime":518.527,"endTime":522.457,"body":"organization of like, Yes, I don't care"},{"startTime":522.457,"endTime":527.017,"body":"about these and I do care about these,"},{"startTime":522.457,"endTime":527.017,"body":"but you just made that case right now."},{"startTime":527.167,"endTime":528.257,"body":"You care about those."},{"startTime":528.267,"endTime":530.437,"body":"So you're incurring interest."},{"startTime":530.587,"endTime":532.177,"body":"You're wasting time."},{"startTime":532.197,"endTime":533.457,"body":"You're wasting money."},{"startTime":533.807,"endTime":535.457,"body":"You're slow in progress."},{"startTime":535.727,"endTime":537.937,"body":"Well, those are all things"},{"startTime":535.727,"endTime":537.937,"body":"that you care about."},{"startTime":537.937,"endTime":540.937,"body":"So if you want to address it,"},{"startTime":537.937,"endTime":540.937,"body":"you actually have to put on that"},{"startTime":540.947,"endTime":542.687,"body":"startup mentality and pitch."},{"startTime":542.837,"endTime":543.797,"body":"Here's why."},{"startTime":543.947,"endTime":548.847,"body":"These three things need to be addressed"},{"startTime":543.947,"endTime":548.847,"body":"because we are too slow for these reasons."},{"startTime":548.847,"endTime":552.177,"body":"We're constantly doing this"},{"startTime":548.847,"endTime":552.177,"body":"and we don't need to, and this"},{"startTime":552.187,"endTime":553.607,"body":"is what's holding us back."},{"startTime":553.837,"endTime":555.457,"body":"So it's the same value proposition."},{"startTime":555.467,"endTime":560.067,"body":"We are wasting time and money by not"},{"startTime":555.467,"endTime":560.067,"body":"addressing these things when they"},{"startTime":560.067,"endTime":563.227,"body":"are small or reasonable in scope."},{"startTime":563.507,"endTime":566.117,"body":"Now here's the problem where"},{"startTime":563.507,"endTime":566.117,"body":"people fall into the trap."},{"startTime":566.167,"endTime":572.137,"body":"They try to pitch refactoring or some"},{"startTime":566.167,"endTime":572.137,"body":"Massive rework as a technical debt item,"},{"startTime":572.317,"endTime":576.787,"body":"in which case you have to evaluate is it"},{"startTime":572.317,"endTime":576.787,"body":"really a refactor or technical debt, or"},{"startTime":576.787,"endTime":579.667,"body":"is it re-engineering or re-architecting."},{"startTime":579.697,"endTime":581.737,"body":"Yeah, because those are"},{"startTime":579.697,"endTime":581.737,"body":"completely different scopes."},{"startTime":581.787,"endTime":585.567,"body":"So if you want to take bite-sized"},{"startTime":581.787,"endTime":585.567,"body":"technical debt items, you should,"},{"startTime":585.747,"endTime":586.917,"body":"and you should budget for it."},{"startTime":586.917,"endTime":587.937,"body":"You should plan for it."},{"startTime":588.177,"endTime":591.057,"body":"And if you care about your"},{"startTime":588.177,"endTime":591.057,"body":"team, you should represent it."},{"startTime":591.207,"endTime":595.737,"body":"For example, one of the ways that we"},{"startTime":591.207,"endTime":595.737,"body":"manage it on my team, I do not manage"},{"startTime":595.737,"endTime":597.147,"body":"as somebody running the product."},{"startTime":597.297,"endTime":600.847,"body":"I do not manage the prioritization"},{"startTime":597.297,"endTime":600.847,"body":"list of my tech debt items."},{"startTime":600.997,"endTime":604.277,"body":"My tech leads and"},{"startTime":600.997,"endTime":604.277,"body":"engineering leaders do right."},{"startTime":604.427,"endTime":605.667,"body":"My architects do."},{"startTime":605.807,"endTime":612.717,"body":"So they actually advise me on the top"},{"startTime":605.807,"endTime":612.717,"body":"things that they want addressed to help"},{"startTime":612.747,"endTime":615.027,"body":"them along the way, not vice versa."},{"startTime":615.177,"endTime":617.277,"body":"So it's a completely different position."},{"startTime":617.627,"endTime":622.287,"body":"Most of the product managers technically,"},{"startTime":617.627,"endTime":622.287,"body":"push down technical debt items."},{"startTime":622.427,"endTime":627.177,"body":"Meanwhile, I'm trying to build"},{"startTime":622.427,"endTime":627.177,"body":"a collaborative structure"},{"startTime":627.177,"endTime":629.507,"body":"where I'm getting advice on the"},{"startTime":627.177,"endTime":629.507,"body":"technical things to build on."},{"startTime":629.797,"endTime":633.517,"body":"So it's really about representation"},{"startTime":629.797,"endTime":633.517,"body":"and the representation is, again, by"},{"startTime":633.667,"endTime":635.857,"body":"interest or the pain of the interest."},{"startTime":636.007,"endTime":638.417,"body":"I think it might pay us to"},{"startTime":636.007,"endTime":638.417,"body":"just quickly delve into the"},{"startTime":638.427,"endTime":640.027,"body":"different types of technical debt."},{"startTime":640.037,"endTime":642.107,"body":"Because it isn't just one and all, right?"},{"startTime":642.137,"endTime":643.117,"body":"There's different types."},{"startTime":643.407,"endTime":646.437,"body":"So, the reason I mention that is"},{"startTime":643.407,"endTime":646.437,"body":"because you might decide to sell"},{"startTime":646.487,"endTime":648.747,"body":"Some types and not others, right?"},{"startTime":648.967,"endTime":653.427,"body":"So the software engineering institute"},{"startTime":648.967,"endTime":653.427,"body":"has a list of 13 different types of"},{"startTime":653.537,"endTime":658.047,"body":"technical debt architecture that I'm"},{"startTime":653.537,"endTime":658.047,"body":"reading their page now build that"},{"startTime":658.377,"endTime":663.127,"body":"code that defect that design that"},{"startTime":658.377,"endTime":663.127,"body":"documentation, that infrastructure,"},{"startTime":663.127,"endTime":664.887,"body":"that people, that that's a good one."},{"startTime":664.937,"endTime":668.017,"body":"Process that requirement, that service."},{"startTime":668.337,"endTime":673.377,"body":"Service debt, serviceability, I guess"},{"startTime":668.337,"endTime":673.377,"body":"text test automation debt, not being"},{"startTime":673.377,"endTime":676.977,"body":"able to run test automation ' cause"},{"startTime":673.377,"endTime":676.977,"body":"you're running too fast maybe."},{"startTime":676.977,"endTime":678.327,"body":"Or test debt in general."},{"startTime":678.327,"endTime":679.407,"body":"So those are the 13."},{"startTime":679.557,"endTime":680.997,"body":"You may not have to sell all of those."},{"startTime":681.147,"endTime":684.597,"body":"Some of those could be done"},{"startTime":681.147,"endTime":684.597,"body":"in stride, so to speak."},{"startTime":684.627,"endTime":684.807,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":684.957,"endTime":687.357,"body":", we actually never qualify those."},{"startTime":687.492,"endTime":689.892,"body":"I'm listening to the 13 items."},{"startTime":689.922,"endTime":690.192,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":690.192,"endTime":692.322,"body":"For the first time in my 25 year career."},{"startTime":692.322,"endTime":692.592,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":692.742,"endTime":694.302,"body":"So I think it's great"},{"startTime":692.742,"endTime":694.302,"body":"that you bring it up."},{"startTime":694.302,"endTime":697.932,"body":"There are different types as,"},{"startTime":694.302,"endTime":697.932,"body":"as obviously as you list it, but"},{"startTime":697.932,"endTime":701.602,"body":"we're really only focused on maybe"},{"startTime":697.932,"endTime":701.602,"body":"I'd say three or three or four."},{"startTime":701.602,"endTime":702.862,"body":"Yeah, I agree with that too."},{"startTime":703.012,"endTime":705.752,"body":"It's three or four big ones"},{"startTime":703.012,"endTime":705.752,"body":"that people focus on mostly."},{"startTime":705.902,"endTime":709.342,"body":"So just to go back to the point you"},{"startTime":705.902,"endTime":709.342,"body":"raised, Brian how do you sell that?"},{"startTime":709.492,"endTime":712.082,"body":"You have to put it in terms"},{"startTime":709.492,"endTime":712.082,"body":"of language they understand."},{"startTime":712.232,"endTime":712.552,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":712.632,"endTime":716.872,"body":"So technical debt as a phrase"},{"startTime":712.632,"endTime":716.872,"body":"may not really jive with them."},{"startTime":717.212,"endTime":720.812,"body":"But the impact of technical"},{"startTime":717.212,"endTime":720.812,"body":"debt in terms of real dollars."},{"startTime":720.962,"endTime":724.912,"body":"That usually is understood well by people,"},{"startTime":720.962,"endTime":724.912,"body":"by stakeholders, what do we stand to"},{"startTime":724.912,"endTime":727.912,"body":"lose, what do we stand to gain those"},{"startTime":724.912,"endTime":727.912,"body":"sorts of things, in terms of dollars."},{"startTime":727.942,"endTime":730.072,"body":"There was something that you"},{"startTime":727.942,"endTime":730.072,"body":"said, Alex, I can't remember"},{"startTime":730.072,"endTime":731.362,"body":"exactly the way you phrased it."},{"startTime":731.592,"endTime":736.182,"body":"I'm thinking about product managers"},{"startTime":731.592,"endTime":736.182,"body":"who are not like me, who do not have"},{"startTime":736.182,"endTime":739.022,"body":"a technical background, who might"},{"startTime":736.182,"endTime":739.022,"body":"not be able to say  we're on this"},{"startTime":739.032,"endTime":742.292,"body":"older version of something, and"},{"startTime":739.032,"endTime":742.292,"body":"because we're on this older version,"},{"startTime":742.592,"endTime":744.122,"body":"we cannot take advantage of these."},{"startTime":744.322,"endTime":745.402,"body":"Those kinds of limitations."},{"startTime":745.402,"endTime":749.832,"body":"So I can normally sell, Hey, because"},{"startTime":745.402,"endTime":749.832,"body":"we're on these older versions, we can't"},{"startTime":749.832,"endTime":752.972,"body":"do these things like, Oh, , that's"},{"startTime":749.832,"endTime":752.972,"body":"not even a great example because that"},{"startTime":752.972,"endTime":756.832,"body":"shows that I'm somehow in tune with"},{"startTime":752.972,"endTime":756.832,"body":"the future roadmap of the technology."},{"startTime":756.842,"endTime":758.512,"body":"You're actually always in tune."},{"startTime":758.512,"endTime":761.152,"body":"It's just like me with"},{"startTime":758.512,"endTime":761.152,"body":"my daughters, right?"},{"startTime":761.452,"endTime":763.402,"body":"If you don't do this, you don't get X."},{"startTime":763.402,"endTime":764.782,"body":"Like you want chocolate, right?"},{"startTime":764.782,"endTime":766.492,"body":"Make sure you eat dinner, right?"},{"startTime":766.522,"endTime":768.392,"body":"After dinner, you can have your candy."},{"startTime":768.632,"endTime":770.452,"body":"and this is the same thing, right?"},{"startTime":770.602,"endTime":775.142,"body":"After you take care of certain tech debt"},{"startTime":770.602,"endTime":775.142,"body":"items, you can have additional value,"},{"startTime":775.142,"endTime":777.512,"body":"but that's only one type, as Om said."},{"startTime":777.662,"endTime":781.342,"body":"In reality, there are different"},{"startTime":777.662,"endTime":781.342,"body":"values that you will get out of"},{"startTime":781.492,"endTime":783.162,"body":"resolving the technical debt."},{"startTime":783.452,"endTime":788.132,"body":"I think where most product managers"},{"startTime":783.452,"endTime":788.132,"body":"fail is having a clear way to"},{"startTime":788.142,"endTime":793.552,"body":"list technical debt separately,"},{"startTime":788.142,"endTime":793.552,"body":"and prioritized in the order of"},{"startTime":793.702,"endTime":799.482,"body":"importance, but not by the products"},{"startTime":793.702,"endTime":799.482,"body":"that Division, but rather by the pains"},{"startTime":799.502,"endTime":805.432,"body":"of the engineering teams, engineering"},{"startTime":799.502,"endTime":805.432,"body":"teams need to own and represent the"},{"startTime":805.432,"endTime":806.932,"body":"importance of the technical debt."},{"startTime":807.082,"endTime":810.502,"body":"However, the way we structure it,"},{"startTime":807.082,"endTime":810.502,"body":"we structure teams in a way that"},{"startTime":810.502,"endTime":816.732,"body":"product always reprioritizes things"},{"startTime":810.502,"endTime":816.732,"body":"for features because solving a"},{"startTime":816.732,"endTime":822.112,"body":"tech debt item is not sexy, but"},{"startTime":816.732,"endTime":822.112,"body":"getting a feature out is accolade."},{"startTime":822.412,"endTime":824.742,"body":"So I think there's"},{"startTime":822.412,"endTime":824.742,"body":"conflicting values here."},{"startTime":825.042,"endTime":829.292,"body":"Although the results for technical"},{"startTime":825.042,"endTime":829.292,"body":"debt feature could be really strong."},{"startTime":829.542,"endTime":830.412,"body":"Here's an example."},{"startTime":830.622,"endTime":835.352,"body":"Take a tech debt item that is performance"},{"startTime":830.622,"endTime":835.352,"body":"based that is actually being complained"},{"startTime":835.372,"endTime":838.072,"body":"on by the users and resolve that one."},{"startTime":838.282,"endTime":841.612,"body":"And all of a sudden it's going to"},{"startTime":838.282,"endTime":841.612,"body":"be brilliant and it's going to be"},{"startTime":841.672,"endTime":845.262,"body":"picking up a lot of recognition,"},{"startTime":841.672,"endTime":845.262,"body":"but solve something that allows"},{"startTime":845.262,"endTime":847.442,"body":"developers to implement quicker."},{"startTime":847.592,"endTime":849.922,"body":"And you're barely going to hear a mention."},{"startTime":850.072,"endTime":850.732,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":850.732,"endTime":851.802,"body":"That's definitely the case."},{"startTime":851.802,"endTime":853.032,"body":"I know a lot of startups have this."},{"startTime":853.182,"endTime":857.042,"body":"Ship or sink kind of mentality, so"},{"startTime":853.182,"endTime":857.042,"body":"just get it out the door, right?"},{"startTime":857.192,"endTime":858.492,"body":"Rough or ready, doesn't matter."},{"startTime":858.492,"endTime":859.342,"body":"Get something out."},{"startTime":859.492,"endTime":861.192,"body":"Maybe it's a prototype, I don't know."},{"startTime":861.252,"endTime":863.732,"body":"if you're doing POCs, yeah, you're"},{"startTime":861.252,"endTime":863.732,"body":"going to have technical debt."},{"startTime":863.762,"endTime":865.732,"body":"But that's by design, it's intentional."},{"startTime":865.882,"endTime":866.952,"body":"If you want to get feedback."},{"startTime":866.982,"endTime":869.342,"body":"But it's what you know, you're"},{"startTime":866.982,"endTime":869.342,"body":"going to put that aside and say,"},{"startTime":869.492,"endTime":872.442,"body":"Despite all of these things, give"},{"startTime":869.492,"endTime":872.442,"body":"me feedback on the functionality."},{"startTime":872.592,"endTime":872.882,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":872.902,"endTime":873.122,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":873.162,"endTime":875.832,"body":"It doesn't matter if you have to click"},{"startTime":873.162,"endTime":875.832,"body":"five times to get something done."},{"startTime":875.842,"endTime":876.912,"body":"We know we can fix that."},{"startTime":876.992,"endTime":877.212,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":877.362,"endTime":880.972,"body":"I think the world of product"},{"startTime":877.362,"endTime":880.972,"body":"management, like the platitudes of"},{"startTime":880.992,"endTime":885.172,"body":"the product management world will"},{"startTime":880.992,"endTime":885.172,"body":"tell you dedicate a percentage of"},{"startTime":885.172,"endTime":888.952,"body":"your, whatever your, your operational"},{"startTime":885.172,"endTime":888.952,"body":"bandwidth, whatever it is, roadmap,"},{"startTime":888.952,"endTime":890.022,"body":"velocity, whatever you want to call it."},{"startTime":890.172,"endTime":891.542,"body":"And they'll say dedicate that."},{"startTime":891.692,"endTime":896.942,"body":"To whatever your engineers or tech lead"},{"startTime":891.692,"endTime":896.942,"body":"or whatever agree that is the top item."},{"startTime":896.942,"endTime":902.402,"body":"so there's always a percentage of"},{"startTime":896.942,"endTime":902.402,"body":"your entire team's capacity dedicated"},{"startTime":902.402,"endTime":904.682,"body":"towards resolving this category."},{"startTime":904.942,"endTime":906.142,"body":"Well, I like where you're going."},{"startTime":906.192,"endTime":908.492,"body":"I like that you're immediately"},{"startTime":906.192,"endTime":908.492,"body":"pushing back on that because I"},{"startTime":908.492,"endTime":913.782,"body":"feel the same way, like what you"},{"startTime":908.492,"endTime":913.782,"body":"just expressed I feel the same way."},{"startTime":913.822,"endTime":916.382,"body":"It seems like I've kind of taken my"},{"startTime":913.822,"endTime":916.382,"body":"hand off the wheel to be like, eh,"},{"startTime":916.402,"endTime":918.242,"body":"whatever you guys say is going to happen."},{"startTime":918.242,"endTime":920.197,"body":"I'm like, That doesn't"},{"startTime":918.242,"endTime":920.197,"body":"seem intentional enough"},{"startTime":920.477,"endTime":923.737,"body":"if you can't make a decision, that"},{"startTime":920.477,"endTime":923.737,"body":"means you do not understand the pain."},{"startTime":923.887,"endTime":924.177,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":924.367,"endTime":927.687,"body":"I like what Ohm said about"},{"startTime":924.367,"endTime":927.687,"body":"certain things being intentional."},{"startTime":927.837,"endTime":931.537,"body":"As intentional, you're actually"},{"startTime":927.837,"endTime":931.537,"body":"consciously making the decision."},{"startTime":931.547,"endTime":933.767,"body":"We're not doing this right now."},{"startTime":933.777,"endTime":935.727,"body":"We are doing this at a later time."},{"startTime":935.877,"endTime":939.197,"body":"And the question really"},{"startTime":935.877,"endTime":939.197,"body":"is when is that time?"},{"startTime":939.207,"endTime":940.387,"body":"Is that time now?"},{"startTime":940.417,"endTime":942.467,"body":"How do you evaluate?"},{"startTime":942.497,"endTime":945.727,"body":"Is that time now the appropriate"},{"startTime":942.497,"endTime":945.727,"body":"time is the challenge."},{"startTime":945.877,"endTime":950.287,"body":"And if you don't have the full tech debt"},{"startTime":945.877,"endTime":950.287,"body":"list in front of you, if you don't have"},{"startTime":950.287,"endTime":955.027,"body":"the team that's able to freely contribute"},{"startTime":950.287,"endTime":955.027,"body":"backlog items in the tech debt realm,"},{"startTime":955.177,"endTime":960.267,"body":"constantly nonstop and organizing it and"},{"startTime":955.177,"endTime":960.267,"body":"sorting it and prioritizing it on their"},{"startTime":960.267,"endTime":964.877,"body":"own and telling you, Hey, we're You know,"},{"startTime":960.267,"endTime":964.877,"body":"Brian, this is a number one item for us."},{"startTime":964.877,"endTime":966.817,"body":"If we do this, we're"},{"startTime":964.877,"endTime":966.817,"body":"going to be twice as fast."},{"startTime":966.967,"endTime":969.957,"body":"Then you really don't have the"},{"startTime":966.967,"endTime":969.957,"body":"basis of making the decision."},{"startTime":970.207,"endTime":973.857,"body":"And now you have, especially if you're not"},{"startTime":970.207,"endTime":973.857,"body":"technical, you're going to say, you know"},{"startTime":973.857,"endTime":975.247,"body":"what, I'm going to push it down the list."},{"startTime":975.257,"endTime":976.527,"body":"That's not important for me."},{"startTime":976.677,"endTime":977.017,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":977.167,"endTime":982.327,"body":"So to push that decision making up"},{"startTime":977.167,"endTime":982.327,"body":"front and center, you need exactly that."},{"startTime":982.337,"endTime":983.787,"body":"You need the ability to see it."},{"startTime":983.937,"endTime":988.167,"body":"I mean, I've been at a company"},{"startTime":983.937,"endTime":988.167,"body":"that celebrated the ability to get"},{"startTime":988.167,"endTime":989.487,"body":"a lot of features out the door."},{"startTime":989.497,"endTime":993.377,"body":"They had a chart, it looked like"},{"startTime":989.497,"endTime":993.377,"body":"aggressive and it went all the way up"},{"startTime":993.397,"endTime":999.762,"body":"and said, Hey, we just released 370"},{"startTime":993.397,"endTime":999.762,"body":"something features and then I said, Oh,"},{"startTime":999.762,"endTime":1001.502,"body":"I've already seen that chart somewhere."},{"startTime":1001.652,"endTime":1004.302,"body":"Oh, the tech that chart"},{"startTime":1001.652,"endTime":1004.302,"body":"has exactly same picture."},{"startTime":1004.452,"endTime":1009.312,"body":"Realistically, anything that you work"},{"startTime":1004.452,"endTime":1009.312,"body":"on, unless you get it to perfection is"},{"startTime":1009.352,"endTime":1011.202,"body":"always going to have some loose ends."},{"startTime":1011.252,"endTime":1017.012,"body":"And that's okay because the iterative"},{"startTime":1011.252,"endTime":1017.012,"body":"nature of agile implementation implies"},{"startTime":1017.042,"endTime":1019.092,"body":"that you will improve it over time."},{"startTime":1019.242,"endTime":1023.082,"body":"I always teach my teams, get it"},{"startTime":1019.242,"endTime":1023.082,"body":"to work, prove that it works,"},{"startTime":1023.212,"endTime":1025.262,"body":"then work on making it better."},{"startTime":1025.412,"endTime":1029.912,"body":"Whether that's faster, whether that's more"},{"startTime":1025.412,"endTime":1029.912,"body":"reliable, whether that's to cover other"},{"startTime":1029.922,"endTime":1032.022,"body":"scenarios, and then you iterate again."},{"startTime":1032.022,"endTime":1033.122,"body":"That's the nature of Agile."},{"startTime":1033.402,"endTime":1035.892,"body":"The opposite to that is the waterfall."},{"startTime":1036.042,"endTime":1039.772,"body":"You get to think up front and center"},{"startTime":1036.042,"endTime":1039.772,"body":"about all the possible situations."},{"startTime":1039.922,"endTime":1041.272,"body":"You strategize."},{"startTime":1041.422,"endTime":1042.642,"body":"You design it once."},{"startTime":1042.792,"endTime":1044.722,"body":"Measure seven times, cut once, right?"},{"startTime":1044.722,"endTime":1046.592,"body":"You implement and then that's it."},{"startTime":1046.742,"endTime":1051.962,"body":"I actually have an article that states"},{"startTime":1046.742,"endTime":1051.962,"body":"that agile is the reason why tech debt"},{"startTime":1051.992,"endTime":1056.892,"body":"exists because we're trying to iterate"},{"startTime":1051.992,"endTime":1056.892,"body":"so quickly and we're switching gears to"},{"startTime":1056.892,"endTime":1059.252,"body":"different feature priorities so fast."},{"startTime":1059.402,"endTime":1063.572,"body":"We don't actually get anything"},{"startTime":1059.402,"endTime":1063.572,"body":"finished, not by engineering standards."},{"startTime":1063.572,"endTime":1067.952,"body":"We finish it by feature standards,"},{"startTime":1063.572,"endTime":1067.952,"body":"by usability, but that's okay."},{"startTime":1068.132,"endTime":1073.792,"body":"This is where the perfectionist coder,"},{"startTime":1068.132,"endTime":1073.792,"body":"software engineer with a perfectionist"},{"startTime":1073.992,"endTime":1077.552,"body":"product guy, they take a look at"},{"startTime":1073.992,"endTime":1077.552,"body":"it and go, hey, my user is happy."},{"startTime":1077.652,"endTime":1079.192,"body":"whatever the code does is good enough."},{"startTime":1079.342,"endTime":1083.152,"body":"And the perfect coder goes,"},{"startTime":1079.342,"endTime":1083.152,"body":"but I can make it even better."},{"startTime":1083.302,"endTime":1085.932,"body":"Well, you don't need to,"},{"startTime":1083.302,"endTime":1085.932,"body":"that's good enough, right?"},{"startTime":1086.122,"endTime":1086.762,"body":"It works."},{"startTime":1087.032,"endTime":1088.062,"body":"Customer's happy."},{"startTime":1088.212,"endTime":1090.232,"body":"And this is the trade"},{"startTime":1088.212,"endTime":1090.232,"body":"off that we're faced."},{"startTime":1090.252,"endTime":1095.252,"body":"So we're not wasting time over"},{"startTime":1090.252,"endTime":1095.252,"body":"engineering to cover a billion scenarios."},{"startTime":1095.402,"endTime":1098.742,"body":"But we are already providing"},{"startTime":1095.402,"endTime":1098.742,"body":"shortest path to value."},{"startTime":1098.892,"endTime":1100.942,"body":"And user value is what Agile is all about."},{"startTime":1101.092,"endTime":1102.332,"body":"Absolutely, very well said."},{"startTime":1102.332,"endTime":1103.362,"body":"Yeah, I couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":1103.512,"endTime":1108.332,"body":"What would you say to the ambitious"},{"startTime":1103.512,"endTime":1108.332,"body":"CTO who says , welcome to your first"},{"startTime":1108.332,"endTime":1109.622,"body":"day as a product manager, Alex."},{"startTime":1109.892,"endTime":1110.342,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":1110.422,"endTime":1111.142,"body":"Congratulations."},{"startTime":1111.142,"endTime":1111.962,"body":"Welcome to the company."},{"startTime":1112.022,"endTime":1113.152,"body":"We're so happy to have you."},{"startTime":1113.492,"endTime":1116.772,"body":"We need to have a feature roadmap for"},{"startTime":1113.492,"endTime":1116.772,"body":"all the features you want to implement."},{"startTime":1116.922,"endTime":1121.112,"body":"But also we're going to keep a parallel"},{"startTime":1116.922,"endTime":1121.112,"body":"roadmap for all of the technical debt"},{"startTime":1121.262,"endTime":1123.282,"body":"that we want to try to pay down over time."},{"startTime":1123.282,"endTime":1125.352,"body":"And those are two different roadmaps."},{"startTime":1125.502,"endTime":1127.492,"body":"They are conflicting goals, right?"},{"startTime":1127.502,"endTime":1130.402,"body":"You cannot have two"},{"startTime":1127.502,"endTime":1130.402,"body":"priority one items, right?"},{"startTime":1130.672,"endTime":1133.152,"body":"In the end of the day, you"},{"startTime":1130.672,"endTime":1133.152,"body":"have to prioritize with"},{"startTime":1133.172,"endTime":1134.512,"body":"index based prioritization."},{"startTime":1134.522,"endTime":1136.172,"body":"Something has to be more important."},{"startTime":1136.322,"endTime":1140.612,"body":"So both of these quote unquote"},{"startTime":1136.322,"endTime":1140.612,"body":"backlogs need to be merged"},{"startTime":1140.612,"endTime":1143.022,"body":"into one with a clear priority."},{"startTime":1143.172,"endTime":1146.632,"body":"Because when something cannot"},{"startTime":1143.172,"endTime":1146.632,"body":"be done in the time allotted,"},{"startTime":1146.782,"endTime":1148.162,"body":"you have to make a decision."},{"startTime":1148.172,"endTime":1154.172,"body":"Do you make it more scalable,"},{"startTime":1148.172,"endTime":1154.172,"body":"supportable, maintainable, or"},{"startTime":1154.172,"endTime":1155.752,"body":"do you deliver one more feature?"},{"startTime":1155.902,"endTime":1160.542,"body":"And so it's good to have these"},{"startTime":1155.902,"endTime":1160.542,"body":"lists separately just for the"},{"startTime":1160.542,"endTime":1163.082,"body":"ability of seeing them side by side."},{"startTime":1163.422,"endTime":1166.602,"body":"But I think when it comes down to"},{"startTime":1163.422,"endTime":1166.602,"body":"one team to implement, they have to"},{"startTime":1166.602,"endTime":1168.702,"body":"be merged into one prioritized list."},{"startTime":1168.852,"endTime":1172.182,"body":"So you mean one, a one B or"},{"startTime":1168.852,"endTime":1172.182,"body":"two different priorities?"},{"startTime":1172.182,"endTime":1173.232,"body":"Are they the same?"},{"startTime":1173.382,"endTime":1174.412,"body":"I get that all the time."},{"startTime":1174.412,"endTime":1175.622,"body":"People that's priority one."},{"startTime":1175.802,"endTime":1179.402,"body":"So is this, so which one's one a"},{"startTime":1175.802,"endTime":1179.402,"body":"one B that's really one and two."},{"startTime":1179.572,"endTime":1183.412,"body":"I mean, the reality of what you just"},{"startTime":1179.572,"endTime":1183.412,"body":"said, like that, that certainly hits home."},{"startTime":1183.732,"endTime":1186.752,"body":"I want to rant about it for the next"},{"startTime":1183.732,"endTime":1186.752,"body":"45 minutes, but I like, I wouldn't"},{"startTime":1186.752,"endTime":1190.972,"body":"help anyone, that's like, I, I"},{"startTime":1186.752,"endTime":1190.972,"body":"do that as part of my normal job."},{"startTime":1191.002,"endTime":1193.372,"body":"I'm scared about people that"},{"startTime":1191.002,"endTime":1193.372,"body":"come into product management,"},{"startTime":1193.422,"endTime":1194.412,"body":"like straight out of school."},{"startTime":1194.692,"endTime":1198.372,"body":"And I'm like, well, how do you know"},{"startTime":1194.692,"endTime":1198.372,"body":"what, what the right balance of"},{"startTime":1198.582,"endTime":1203.362,"body":"like technical enablers, you mean"},{"startTime":1198.582,"endTime":1203.362,"body":"like technical specifically tech"},{"startTime":1203.442,"endTime":1207.742,"body":"technology related work that you"},{"startTime":1203.442,"endTime":1207.742,"body":"have to do along with feature work."},{"startTime":1207.802,"endTime":1212.522,"body":"How do you know when to pivot this is one"},{"startTime":1207.802,"endTime":1212.522,"body":"of those, like the last podcast we did."},{"startTime":1212.707,"endTime":1216.537,"body":"Was along the lines of like it was"},{"startTime":1212.707,"endTime":1216.537,"body":"intuition to get something started"},{"startTime":1216.777,"endTime":1219.887,"body":"to know what the right thing to"},{"startTime":1216.777,"endTime":1219.887,"body":"get started and then evidence to"},{"startTime":1219.887,"endTime":1221.267,"body":"figure out how long to stay on it."},{"startTime":1221.287,"endTime":1221.677,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1221.677,"endTime":1223.387,"body":"It was like, what is that balance?"},{"startTime":1223.597,"endTime":1225.317,"body":"If you never worked in"},{"startTime":1223.597,"endTime":1225.317,"body":"software development"},{"startTime":1225.537,"endTime":1228.387,"body":"you know, I think we're trying to"},{"startTime":1225.537,"endTime":1228.387,"body":"quantify things that don't really exist."},{"startTime":1228.562,"endTime":1230.392,"body":"Whatever you do is just what you do."},{"startTime":1230.682,"endTime":1235.062,"body":"It's kind of like we create our own"},{"startTime":1230.682,"endTime":1235.062,"body":"destiny by the decisions that we make."},{"startTime":1235.162,"endTime":1238.782,"body":"Some people believe that there's some"},{"startTime":1235.162,"endTime":1238.782,"body":"kind of a higher destiny for them, and"},{"startTime":1238.782,"endTime":1240.202,"body":"other people think that, you know what?"},{"startTime":1240.392,"endTime":1242.862,"body":"You get where you get to because"},{"startTime":1240.392,"endTime":1242.862,"body":"you made certain decisions."},{"startTime":1243.192,"endTime":1247.922,"body":"So, I think if you take a look at that"},{"startTime":1243.192,"endTime":1247.922,"body":"CTO that wants to handle it, And you"},{"startTime":1247.922,"endTime":1252.732,"body":"can either interweave things and put"},{"startTime":1247.922,"endTime":1252.732,"body":"it into the same priority list, or"},{"startTime":1252.782,"endTime":1256.752,"body":"after you've reached your last goal,"},{"startTime":1252.782,"endTime":1256.752,"body":"you simply allocate some time for"},{"startTime":1256.752,"endTime":1258.472,"body":"stabilization and you say, you know what?"},{"startTime":1258.622,"endTime":1262.132,"body":"Right now we're just going to tackle"},{"startTime":1258.622,"endTime":1262.132,"body":"this backlog of tech debt items."},{"startTime":1262.462,"endTime":1264.172,"body":"The problem is that never happens."},{"startTime":1264.172,"endTime":1268.502,"body":"Usually it's easier to wait"},{"startTime":1264.172,"endTime":1268.502,"body":"until you're doing some work in"},{"startTime":1268.502,"endTime":1271.232,"body":"the same area to efficiencies."},{"startTime":1271.382,"endTime":1274.772,"body":"Let's say you implemented some"},{"startTime":1271.382,"endTime":1274.772,"body":"features, it has tech debt items."},{"startTime":1275.037,"endTime":1277.227,"body":"But you know, there's going to"},{"startTime":1275.037,"endTime":1277.227,"body":"be more features covering it."},{"startTime":1277.367,"endTime":1278.517,"body":"So it's a perfect time"},{"startTime":1278.667,"endTime":1282.047,"body":"and, and again, being an architect, I"},{"startTime":1278.667,"endTime":1282.047,"body":"take a look at something differently."},{"startTime":1282.047,"endTime":1285.437,"body":"Like people associate just like"},{"startTime":1282.047,"endTime":1285.437,"body":"the definition of tech debt coming"},{"startTime":1285.437,"endTime":1288.607,"body":"from refactoring people associate"},{"startTime":1285.437,"endTime":1288.607,"body":"tech debt with refactoring."},{"startTime":1288.757,"endTime":1290.457,"body":"What does refactoring actually mean?"},{"startTime":1290.547,"endTime":1294.277,"body":"It means that when you designed what"},{"startTime":1290.547,"endTime":1294.277,"body":"you've designed and when you implement"},{"startTime":1294.277,"endTime":1300.157,"body":"it, you simply had only a set of"},{"startTime":1294.277,"endTime":1300.157,"body":"understanding of what you were building,"},{"startTime":1300.307,"endTime":1305.357,"body":"or you basically just limited yourself"},{"startTime":1300.307,"endTime":1305.357,"body":"on purpose to building something smaller."},{"startTime":1305.507,"endTime":1311.387,"body":"So being an architect, I always said this,"},{"startTime":1305.507,"endTime":1311.387,"body":"you don't actually architect a solution."},{"startTime":1311.537,"endTime":1313.857,"body":"You refactor into a design."},{"startTime":1314.007,"endTime":1317.447,"body":"Because constantly as you're"},{"startTime":1314.007,"endTime":1317.447,"body":"adding features, you're recognizing"},{"startTime":1317.447,"endTime":1318.667,"body":"what you have to change."},{"startTime":1318.937,"endTime":1323.457,"body":"So refactoring is a healthy thing,"},{"startTime":1318.937,"endTime":1323.457,"body":"as long as you keep on iterating"},{"startTime":1323.467,"endTime":1324.587,"body":"on improving your product."},{"startTime":1324.857,"endTime":1329.297,"body":"But if you have to refactor just for"},{"startTime":1324.857,"endTime":1329.297,"body":"the sake of refactor, that's waste."},{"startTime":1329.447,"endTime":1330.737,"body":"Yeah, definitely agree with that."},{"startTime":1330.877,"endTime":1334.307,"body":"I think a lot of times when, new"},{"startTime":1330.877,"endTime":1334.307,"body":"product people coming in, Really"},{"startTime":1334.307,"endTime":1335.757,"body":"don't have a technical background."},{"startTime":1335.917,"endTime":1338.297,"body":"how do they prioritize technical debt?"},{"startTime":1338.447,"endTime":1341.727,"body":"Quite poorly, honestly, because one"},{"startTime":1338.447,"endTime":1341.727,"body":"of the things that they always aware"},{"startTime":1341.727,"endTime":1343.577,"body":"of is the pressure to deliver, right?"},{"startTime":1343.907,"endTime":1347.667,"body":"And they don't think about making"},{"startTime":1343.907,"endTime":1347.667,"body":"things better or making things right."},{"startTime":1347.677,"endTime":1349.447,"body":"They're always going to"},{"startTime":1347.677,"endTime":1349.447,"body":"think about adding features."},{"startTime":1349.687,"endTime":1353.482,"body":"So they'll lean heavier on the"},{"startTime":1349.687,"endTime":1353.482,"body":"feature side on their backlog."},{"startTime":1353.812,"endTime":1358.252,"body":"And as you pointed out, they'll put tech"},{"startTime":1353.812,"endTime":1358.252,"body":"debt items further down in the backlog."},{"startTime":1358.402,"endTime":1362.332,"body":"And if that happens in perpetuity,"},{"startTime":1358.402,"endTime":1362.332,"body":"that tech debt's never getting paid"},{"startTime":1362.332,"endTime":1364.072,"body":"in accruing interest by the day."},{"startTime":1364.122,"endTime":1367.492,"body":"I don't talk about the things that scare"},{"startTime":1364.122,"endTime":1367.492,"body":"me a lot on the podcast, but the things"},{"startTime":1367.492,"endTime":1371.862,"body":"that scare me for the next generation"},{"startTime":1367.492,"endTime":1371.862,"body":"of product managers especially, this"},{"startTime":1371.892,"endTime":1376.182,"body":"is you know, you're incented on the"},{"startTime":1371.892,"endTime":1376.182,"body":"number of features you put through, and"},{"startTime":1376.182,"endTime":1377.237,"body":"I mean, you're incented on the next."},{"startTime":1377.387,"endTime":1381.527,"body":"thing that brings new users into"},{"startTime":1377.387,"endTime":1381.527,"body":"your application or spikes the use"},{"startTime":1381.527,"endTime":1382.547,"body":"of your application or whatever."},{"startTime":1382.547,"endTime":1386.187,"body":"Like none of these people are incented"},{"startTime":1382.547,"endTime":1386.187,"body":"on all the ilities that you were"},{"startTime":1386.187,"endTime":1389.947,"body":"pointing out before I mean, yeah, the"},{"startTime":1386.187,"endTime":1389.947,"body":"one time your app crashes and you blue"},{"startTime":1389.947,"endTime":1391.657,"body":"screen airlines all over the world."},{"startTime":1391.807,"endTime":1395.567,"body":"Well, hopefully that's not a"},{"startTime":1391.807,"endTime":1395.567,"body":"junior product person running."},{"startTime":1395.757,"endTime":1398.537,"body":"I don't know, I've not dug into it."},{"startTime":1398.537,"endTime":1399.447,"body":"I don't know about that."},{"startTime":1399.577,"endTime":1401.487,"body":"So I can talk about my experience."},{"startTime":1401.487,"endTime":1407.077,"body":"When I started out I had this deep"},{"startTime":1401.487,"endTime":1407.077,"body":"desire to please my bosses, right?"},{"startTime":1407.177,"endTime":1410.297,"body":"So the managers and everybody else,"},{"startTime":1407.177,"endTime":1410.297,"body":"and I kind of talked about it in"},{"startTime":1410.297,"endTime":1412.067,"body":"the very first podcast that we did."},{"startTime":1412.067,"endTime":1412.907,"body":"I wanted to please them."},{"startTime":1412.907,"endTime":1417.537,"body":"I wanted to make them happy because,"},{"startTime":1412.907,"endTime":1417.537,"body":"Hey, I'm building a career and I"},{"startTime":1417.537,"endTime":1421.467,"body":"really had low confidence and gaining"},{"startTime":1417.537,"endTime":1421.467,"body":"some recognition went a long way."},{"startTime":1421.627,"endTime":1425.787,"body":"if I wanted to please the team, I would"},{"startTime":1421.627,"endTime":1425.787,"body":"pick up more of a tech that items, if"},{"startTime":1425.787,"endTime":1429.707,"body":"I wanted to please the bosses, I would"},{"startTime":1425.787,"endTime":1429.707,"body":"probably pick up features or I would"},{"startTime":1429.707,"endTime":1432.127,"body":"probably pick up some other type of work."},{"startTime":1432.277,"endTime":1436.177,"body":"So in essence, it's just"},{"startTime":1432.277,"endTime":1436.177,"body":"really understanding."},{"startTime":1436.232,"endTime":1443.602,"body":"How you make that decision is it really"},{"startTime":1436.232,"endTime":1443.602,"body":"biased towards your Thought about pleasing"},{"startTime":1443.602,"endTime":1448.292,"body":"people or is it really important for the"},{"startTime":1443.602,"endTime":1448.292,"body":"product and kind of extrapolating your"},{"startTime":1448.292,"endTime":1452.672,"body":"emotions out of it And I think that's"},{"startTime":1448.292,"endTime":1452.672,"body":"a question we talked about this a lot"},{"startTime":1452.822,"endTime":1455.427,"body":"product manager is Is not a junior role."},{"startTime":1455.577,"endTime":1461.257,"body":"You pop out of college get a QA job,"},{"startTime":1455.577,"endTime":1461.257,"body":"get a coding job, get a business analyst"},{"startTime":1461.257,"endTime":1465.257,"body":"job you know, take a look at these"},{"startTime":1461.257,"endTime":1465.257,"body":"teams functions before you start to"},{"startTime":1465.257,"endTime":1467.797,"body":"drive or have a strong mentor, right?"},{"startTime":1467.827,"endTime":1471.777,"body":"If it's a big product team and you're"},{"startTime":1467.827,"endTime":1471.777,"body":"just one of the people on the team,"},{"startTime":1471.997,"endTime":1475.497,"body":"Then hopefully you're gaining enough"},{"startTime":1471.997,"endTime":1475.497,"body":"mentorship where you can ask questions."},{"startTime":1475.647,"endTime":1475.867,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1476.067,"endTime":1480.987,"body":"I don't want to keep beating the same dead"},{"startTime":1476.067,"endTime":1480.987,"body":"horse, but I'm a big fan of the journeyman"},{"startTime":1480.997,"endTime":1482.917,"body":"models of you're coming into the market."},{"startTime":1483.067,"endTime":1485.827,"body":"You know, work under the auspices"},{"startTime":1483.067,"endTime":1485.827,"body":"of somebody who's got a few"},{"startTime":1485.827,"endTime":1487.667,"body":"years on the post, so to speak."},{"startTime":1487.707,"endTime":1488.487,"body":"Not stop, right?"},{"startTime":1488.517,"endTime":1489.167,"body":"And learn."},{"startTime":1489.317,"endTime":1491.807,"body":"But that doesn't seem to be"},{"startTime":1489.317,"endTime":1491.807,"body":"a prevalent model these days."},{"startTime":1491.957,"endTime":1492.317,"body":"Sadly."},{"startTime":1492.467,"endTime":1493.907,"body":"We learn by mistakes, mostly."},{"startTime":1494.057,"endTime":1495.677,"body":"There's two categories I want to dig into."},{"startTime":1495.687,"endTime":1499.837,"body":"One was refactoring, which I think is"},{"startTime":1495.687,"endTime":1499.837,"body":"really misunderstood, and we should"},{"startTime":1499.887,"endTime":1501.207,"body":"spend a minute to talk about it."},{"startTime":1501.217,"endTime":1506.187,"body":"The other one was the concept of"},{"startTime":1501.217,"endTime":1506.187,"body":"your product manager using technical"},{"startTime":1506.187,"endTime":1508.267,"body":"debt for incurring technical debt."},{"startTime":1508.367,"endTime":1512.947,"body":"For a reason, like just like finance, if"},{"startTime":1508.367,"endTime":1512.947,"body":"you're going to take on debt, like debt,"},{"startTime":1512.957,"endTime":1518.257,"body":"like money debt for a reason knowing why"},{"startTime":1512.957,"endTime":1518.257,"body":"you're choosing certain things and making"},{"startTime":1518.257,"endTime":1523.577,"body":"that choice implicit, and then maybe, You"},{"startTime":1518.257,"endTime":1523.577,"body":"should reflect that choice in your backlog"},{"startTime":1523.857,"endTime":1527.947,"body":"so that, you're writing like a note to"},{"startTime":1523.857,"endTime":1527.947,"body":"yourself in the future to say like you"},{"startTime":1527.947,"endTime":1534.837,"body":"know, I owe you Brian in the future who"},{"startTime":1527.947,"endTime":1534.837,"body":"made this choice to manage all my users"},{"startTime":1534.847,"endTime":1537.317,"body":"manually and not build an admin system."},{"startTime":1537.557,"endTime":1541.267,"body":"while I scaled to 300, 000 users"},{"startTime":1537.557,"endTime":1541.267,"body":"or something like that, not that"},{"startTime":1541.267,"endTime":1544.197,"body":"I've done that ever in the past in"},{"startTime":1541.267,"endTime":1544.197,"body":"mobile development of previous life."},{"startTime":1544.552,"endTime":1545.212,"body":"Who does that?"},{"startTime":1547.918,"endTime":1551.578,"body":"Look I, I think if you look"},{"startTime":1547.918,"endTime":1551.578,"body":"at the totality of what people"},{"startTime":1551.578,"endTime":1554.288,"body":"are trying to deliver, you just"},{"startTime":1551.578,"endTime":1554.288,"body":"can't deliver everything, right?"},{"startTime":1554.288,"endTime":1555.698,"body":"Otherwise, you'll never get to market."},{"startTime":1555.968,"endTime":1557.318,"body":"So, yes, go ahead."},{"startTime":1557.323,"endTime":1557.383,"body":"Agree."},{"startTime":1557.383,"endTime":1558.998,"body":"Go ahead and put something out there."},{"startTime":1558.998,"endTime":1559.448,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1559.478,"endTime":1560.798,"body":"But with the intent."},{"startTime":1560.858,"endTime":1563.048,"body":"Going back to that word,"},{"startTime":1560.858,"endTime":1563.048,"body":"put it in the backlog."},{"startTime":1563.048,"endTime":1564.278,"body":"To your point, put it in the backlog."},{"startTime":1564.278,"endTime":1566.378,"body":"We need to build an admin tool."},{"startTime":1566.678,"endTime":1568.418,"body":"What value do you give it?"},{"startTime":1568.768,"endTime":1571.648,"body":"You wanna get ahead of the time"},{"startTime":1568.768,"endTime":1571.648,"body":"when the customers complain about"},{"startTime":1571.648,"endTime":1576.118,"body":"it, I see it now, many years later"},{"startTime":1571.648,"endTime":1576.118,"body":"reflected as a product manager."},{"startTime":1576.118,"endTime":1577.518,"body":"The people that I'm punishing."},{"startTime":1577.668,"endTime":1581.458,"body":"For not building an administrative tool"},{"startTime":1577.668,"endTime":1581.458,"body":"for quickly onboarding and scaling a lot"},{"startTime":1581.458,"endTime":1585.208,"body":"of users, the people I'm punishing is"},{"startTime":1581.458,"endTime":1585.208,"body":"the development team, because they have"},{"startTime":1585.208,"endTime":1589.058,"body":"to deal like in this world of DevOps,"},{"startTime":1585.208,"endTime":1589.058,"body":"where we don't have any administrators"},{"startTime":1589.058,"endTime":1591.738,"body":"and the the developers are the only"},{"startTime":1589.058,"endTime":1591.738,"body":"people that recover from our blue"},{"startTime":1591.738,"endTime":1595.538,"body":"screens worldwide or whatever, like the"},{"startTime":1591.738,"endTime":1595.538,"body":"development team's got to bail us out."},{"startTime":1595.578,"endTime":1595.908,"body":"So."},{"startTime":1596.058,"endTime":1600.358,"body":"I am choosing to say, look, this"},{"startTime":1596.058,"endTime":1600.358,"body":"is what I'm using my development,"},{"startTime":1600.378,"endTime":1602.548,"body":"quote, resources to do."},{"startTime":1602.698,"endTime":1606.648,"body":"And it's, I mean, it's a business"},{"startTime":1602.698,"endTime":1606.648,"body":"decision that I have made"},{"startTime":1606.798,"endTime":1607.838,"body":"and now we got to pay for it."},{"startTime":1607.938,"endTime":1610.118,"body":"But you're also punishing"},{"startTime":1607.938,"endTime":1610.118,"body":"the customer too, right?"},{"startTime":1610.118,"endTime":1613.198,"body":"I mean, the customer's having to wait"},{"startTime":1610.118,"endTime":1613.198,"body":"longer before they can get onboarded."},{"startTime":1613.213,"endTime":1615.983,"body":"So there's direct or indirect"},{"startTime":1613.213,"endTime":1615.983,"body":"value for the customer there."},{"startTime":1616.133,"endTime":1619.873,"body":"So technical debt has a lot of"},{"startTime":1616.133,"endTime":1619.873,"body":"flavors as we talked about, but"},{"startTime":1619.873,"endTime":1621.723,"body":"it also has a lot of reasons."},{"startTime":1621.873,"endTime":1622.903,"body":"Forget the decisions."},{"startTime":1622.903,"endTime":1625.413,"body":"There's a lot of reasons"},{"startTime":1622.903,"endTime":1625.413,"body":"why technical debt exists."},{"startTime":1625.563,"endTime":1626.223,"body":"And."},{"startTime":1626.458,"endTime":1627.948,"body":"I'll give you an example right now."},{"startTime":1628.098,"endTime":1632.718,"body":"We've implemented a feature that basically"},{"startTime":1628.098,"endTime":1632.718,"body":"pulls a lot of analytics and gives"},{"startTime":1632.718,"endTime":1636.688,"body":"you some kind of results, but we call"},{"startTime":1632.718,"endTime":1636.688,"body":"it analytics, but it's actually doing"},{"startTime":1636.688,"endTime":1638.758,"body":"reporting is actually querying everything."},{"startTime":1638.758,"endTime":1640.988,"body":"And it's taken a long time"},{"startTime":1638.758,"endTime":1640.988,"body":"to aggregate the data."},{"startTime":1641.138,"endTime":1641.858,"body":"There's a difference."},{"startTime":1641.868,"endTime":1642.428,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":1642.528,"endTime":1644.598,"body":"Reporting and analytics are different."},{"startTime":1644.928,"endTime":1648.118,"body":"One is real time and you"},{"startTime":1644.928,"endTime":1648.118,"body":"don't query all of the data."},{"startTime":1648.118,"endTime":1649.228,"body":"You don't aggregate it."},{"startTime":1649.258,"endTime":1652.788,"body":"You basically have the real time"},{"startTime":1649.258,"endTime":1652.788,"body":"information at that snapshot in time"},{"startTime":1652.938,"endTime":1656.448,"body":"versus the ability to query a list and"},{"startTime":1652.938,"endTime":1656.448,"body":"aggregate all the information, right?"},{"startTime":1656.788,"endTime":1659.968,"body":"So the engineers, when they"},{"startTime":1656.788,"endTime":1659.968,"body":"designed this, they designed."},{"startTime":1660.198,"endTime":1665.188,"body":"One system, they designed reporting,"},{"startTime":1660.198,"endTime":1665.188,"body":"represented as analytics because"},{"startTime":1665.188,"endTime":1666.248,"body":"they thought it would perform."},{"startTime":1666.398,"endTime":1666.958,"body":"It didn't."},{"startTime":1667.108,"endTime":1671.008,"body":"It only performed with their"},{"startTime":1667.108,"endTime":1671.008,"body":"sample data that they decided"},{"startTime":1671.008,"endTime":1672.408,"body":"to create at that point in time."},{"startTime":1672.558,"endTime":1674.418,"body":"Now, we have this debt."},{"startTime":1674.568,"endTime":1678.288,"body":"The report comes back because"},{"startTime":1674.568,"endTime":1678.288,"body":"it represents analytics,"},{"startTime":1678.588,"endTime":1680.178,"body":"runs close to a minute."},{"startTime":1680.478,"endTime":1681.358,"body":"What do we do now?"},{"startTime":1681.558,"endTime":1683.618,"body":"So can the user be happy with a minute?"},{"startTime":1683.658,"endTime":1684.048,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1684.068,"endTime":1686.898,"body":"The user can be okay with a"},{"startTime":1684.068,"endTime":1686.898,"body":"minute, probably not happy."},{"startTime":1686.898,"endTime":1689.928,"body":"Not now this isn't early two thousands."},{"startTime":1690.078,"endTime":1691.908,"body":"However, we now have that debt."},{"startTime":1692.058,"endTime":1693.238,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":1693.388,"endTime":1698.688,"body":"That means that we missed an opportunity"},{"startTime":1693.388,"endTime":1698.688,"body":"earlier to have the better architecture,"},{"startTime":1698.838,"endTime":1701.908,"body":"better discussion, and the number"},{"startTime":1698.838,"endTime":1701.908,"body":"one explanation that we get, and"},{"startTime":1701.918,"endTime":1706.178,"body":"most teams fall into it and agile"},{"startTime":1701.918,"endTime":1706.178,"body":"is, well, we got it in the sprint."},{"startTime":1706.328,"endTime":1708.628,"body":"So we just started working"},{"startTime":1706.328,"endTime":1708.628,"body":"on it with this sprint."},{"startTime":1708.778,"endTime":1714.258,"body":"the amount of teams that I've seen"},{"startTime":1708.778,"endTime":1714.258,"body":"not break up the design time box as a"},{"startTime":1714.268,"endTime":1719.698,"body":"spike before doing the implementation"},{"startTime":1714.268,"endTime":1719.698,"body":"and committing, delivering the work"},{"startTime":1719.928,"endTime":1724.298,"body":"within the same sprint as they're"},{"startTime":1719.928,"endTime":1724.298,"body":"building the technical design."},{"startTime":1724.448,"endTime":1728.648,"body":"That got them into trouble"},{"startTime":1724.448,"endTime":1728.648,"body":"delivering shorthanded solution"},{"startTime":1728.798,"endTime":1733.248,"body":"is one of the reasons why the most"},{"startTime":1728.798,"endTime":1733.248,"body":"severe tech debt problems exist."},{"startTime":1733.398,"endTime":1737.928,"body":"Now you get that feature, but your roadmap"},{"startTime":1733.398,"endTime":1737.928,"body":"has a lot more important things to do."},{"startTime":1738.268,"endTime":1742.368,"body":"And you as a product now have to"},{"startTime":1738.268,"endTime":1742.368,"body":"accept it in the form as it is,"},{"startTime":1742.708,"endTime":1745.148,"body":"saying this is good enough for now."},{"startTime":1745.298,"endTime":1750.218,"body":"I don't really have the luxury for"},{"startTime":1745.298,"endTime":1750.218,"body":"whatever contractual commitments that"},{"startTime":1750.218,"endTime":1752.268,"body":"we have agreed to with a customer."},{"startTime":1752.518,"endTime":1755.638,"body":"I don't have the luxury of"},{"startTime":1752.518,"endTime":1755.638,"body":"taking another iteration on this."},{"startTime":1755.788,"endTime":1760.338,"body":"So we have to keep moving with the"},{"startTime":1755.788,"endTime":1760.338,"body":"idea that we will eventually come back."},{"startTime":1760.628,"endTime":1761.968,"body":"And this is self explanatory."},{"startTime":1762.118,"endTime":1765.198,"body":"Imposed tell tech that"},{"startTime":1762.118,"endTime":1765.198,"body":"that didn't need to happen"},{"startTime":1765.348,"endTime":1766.488,"body":"Om, help me out with this one."},{"startTime":1766.488,"endTime":1769.518,"body":"Cause I want to specifically tap"},{"startTime":1766.488,"endTime":1769.518,"body":"your skillset, if we're just in"},{"startTime":1769.518,"endTime":1774.808,"body":"time development and if we're slice"},{"startTime":1769.518,"endTime":1774.808,"body":"of the cake in time, agile, right."},{"startTime":1774.958,"endTime":1780.493,"body":"It implies to me that were reserving"},{"startTime":1774.958,"endTime":1780.493,"body":"enough time to truly do The architectural"},{"startTime":1780.493,"endTime":1782.633,"body":"planning immediately before the work."},{"startTime":1782.783,"endTime":1783.823,"body":"In the story you just told me."},{"startTime":1784.043,"endTime":1788.353,"body":"What I'm clearly hearing as the product"},{"startTime":1784.043,"endTime":1788.353,"body":"manager here is Brian, you're not giving"},{"startTime":1788.353,"endTime":1792.283,"body":"us enough time to think about the entire"},{"startTime":1788.353,"endTime":1792.283,"body":"solution and to architect and to talk to"},{"startTime":1792.283,"endTime":1795.673,"body":"other teams, because in a scale solution,"},{"startTime":1792.283,"endTime":1795.673,"body":"you'll have three, four other teams."},{"startTime":1795.883,"endTime":1797.923,"body":"Maybe you've got a dev ops"},{"startTime":1795.883,"endTime":1797.923,"body":"team that does your deployment."},{"startTime":1797.923,"endTime":1800.163,"body":"So maybe that's a mix of agile"},{"startTime":1797.923,"endTime":1800.163,"body":"teams and component teams"},{"startTime":1800.163,"endTime":1800.933,"body":"and all kinds of other stuff."},{"startTime":1801.193,"endTime":1806.103,"body":"I'm hearing a business agility problem"},{"startTime":1801.193,"endTime":1806.103,"body":"of we want to pivot fast, but we're"},{"startTime":1806.343,"endTime":1809.463,"body":"pivoting so fast that we're leaving"},{"startTime":1806.343,"endTime":1809.463,"body":"a bunch of stuff on the table."},{"startTime":1809.613,"endTime":1811.083,"body":"It's definitely a dichotomy, right?"},{"startTime":1811.093,"endTime":1812.713,"body":"Depending on how quickly you're moving."},{"startTime":1812.713,"endTime":1817.033,"body":"So I think the evidence that I've come"},{"startTime":1812.713,"endTime":1817.033,"body":"across in my experiences is that Kind of"},{"startTime":1817.033,"endTime":1822.963,"body":"across a small spectrum, one is people"},{"startTime":1817.033,"endTime":1822.963,"body":"don't do this proactive thing, right,"},{"startTime":1823.023,"endTime":1827.303,"body":"of paving the architectural runway so"},{"startTime":1823.023,"endTime":1827.303,"body":"they run across something, we can't"},{"startTime":1827.303,"endTime":1831.173,"body":"do this now, it's gonna be next sprint"},{"startTime":1827.303,"endTime":1831.173,"body":"or the sprint after, right, that's the"},{"startTime":1831.173,"endTime":1833.883,"body":"lower end of the spectrum, the other"},{"startTime":1831.173,"endTime":1833.883,"body":"end of the spectrum is Theoretically,"},{"startTime":1833.933,"endTime":1837.253,"body":"organizations are actually do"},{"startTime":1833.933,"endTime":1837.253,"body":"have an architectural runway"},{"startTime":1837.253,"endTime":1840.673,"body":"that they're paving ahead of the"},{"startTime":1837.253,"endTime":1840.673,"body":"mainstream development occurring."},{"startTime":1840.823,"endTime":1845.623,"body":"And if they've done this right,"},{"startTime":1840.823,"endTime":1845.623,"body":"they land mostly in the right spot."},{"startTime":1845.693,"endTime":1849.343,"body":"They don't always land in the right"},{"startTime":1845.693,"endTime":1849.343,"body":"spot because they're always surprises."},{"startTime":1849.543,"endTime":1852.723,"body":"And there are always last minute"},{"startTime":1849.543,"endTime":1852.723,"body":"reprioritizations for which the"},{"startTime":1852.743,"endTime":1856.483,"body":"technological framework, the skeleton"},{"startTime":1852.743,"endTime":1856.483,"body":"doesn't allow you to go ahead and"},{"startTime":1856.483,"endTime":1858.243,"body":"start coding in the next sprint."},{"startTime":1858.393,"endTime":1859.973,"body":"But that's very rare, right?"},{"startTime":1860.123,"endTime":1863.273,"body":"So those are the two things that"},{"startTime":1860.123,"endTime":1863.273,"body":"I've seen is across that continuum."},{"startTime":1863.523,"endTime":1867.343,"body":"People don't talk about this a lot,"},{"startTime":1863.523,"endTime":1867.343,"body":"but it's very, very hard to have an"},{"startTime":1867.383,"endTime":1870.033,"body":"architect in an agile environment."},{"startTime":1870.183,"endTime":1873.443,"body":"It's very, very hard because an"},{"startTime":1870.183,"endTime":1873.443,"body":"architect is not part of the team."},{"startTime":1873.593,"endTime":1877.103,"body":"It architects sit outside of the teams."},{"startTime":1877.103,"endTime":1880.653,"body":"They share kind of the higher level"},{"startTime":1877.103,"endTime":1880.653,"body":"vision, but the type of prep work that"},{"startTime":1880.653,"endTime":1883.803,"body":"you're talking about a lot of times"},{"startTime":1880.653,"endTime":1883.803,"body":"implies that the architect is going to"},{"startTime":1883.803,"endTime":1887.503,"body":"do it, but it's not the architect that's"},{"startTime":1883.803,"endTime":1887.503,"body":"going to do it in the right environment."},{"startTime":1887.818,"endTime":1892.568,"body":"It has to be a spike picked up by the"},{"startTime":1887.818,"endTime":1892.568,"body":"team, presented in front of the architect"},{"startTime":1892.588,"endTime":1897.938,"body":"for review, whatever that review may"},{"startTime":1892.588,"endTime":1897.938,"body":"come as a recommendation, and then"},{"startTime":1897.938,"endTime":1902.748,"body":"and only then does that become some"},{"startTime":1897.938,"endTime":1902.748,"body":"kind of a work item in future sprints,"},{"startTime":1902.988,"endTime":1907.398,"body":"is very difficult to achieve in"},{"startTime":1902.988,"endTime":1907.398,"body":"a smooth way, especially once"},{"startTime":1907.398,"endTime":1909.048,"body":"you have multiple teams going."},{"startTime":1909.198,"endTime":1914.698,"body":"And you know, there will always be times"},{"startTime":1909.198,"endTime":1914.698,"body":"when teams are forced to pick up things"},{"startTime":1914.878,"endTime":1919.288,"body":"that they think are small and they don't"},{"startTime":1914.878,"endTime":1919.288,"body":"run it with a spike before they pick it"},{"startTime":1919.288,"endTime":1924.658,"body":"up and this happens non stop you know,"},{"startTime":1919.288,"endTime":1924.658,"body":"we always Overestimate the abilities of"},{"startTime":1924.658,"endTime":1929.508,"body":"the team to resolve something and think"},{"startTime":1924.658,"endTime":1929.508,"body":"that just because we story pointed it"},{"startTime":1929.858,"endTime":1933.928,"body":"Right, and we have some kind of a number"},{"startTime":1929.858,"endTime":1933.928,"body":"that we immediately understand it."},{"startTime":1934.098,"endTime":1937.618,"body":"Yeah, so the architect really should be"},{"startTime":1934.098,"endTime":1937.618,"body":"working with the teams the whole time"},{"startTime":1937.618,"endTime":1941.728,"body":"anyway, right, to your point but they"},{"startTime":1937.618,"endTime":1941.728,"body":"provide the guidelines and then the"},{"startTime":1941.728,"endTime":1944.198,"body":"team, to your point again conduct spikes."},{"startTime":1944.348,"endTime":1947.468,"body":"I'm a fan of conducting spikes"},{"startTime":1944.348,"endTime":1947.468,"body":"for things that the team doesn't"},{"startTime":1947.508,"endTime":1949.498,"body":"completely understand how to deliver."},{"startTime":1949.798,"endTime":1952.728,"body":"So yeah, n number of stories that"},{"startTime":1949.798,"endTime":1952.728,"body":"they're considering for a sprint."},{"startTime":1953.058,"endTime":1954.458,"body":"Do you really understand team?"},{"startTime":1954.488,"endTime":1956.388,"body":"How are you going to do"},{"startTime":1954.488,"endTime":1956.388,"body":"every single one of those?"},{"startTime":1956.718,"endTime":1958.258,"body":"Do you have everything you need?"},{"startTime":1958.318,"endTime":1958.578,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1958.608,"endTime":1962.658,"body":"And if you don't, that story needs to"},{"startTime":1958.608,"endTime":1962.658,"body":"be broken up into a spike plus, right."},{"startTime":1962.708,"endTime":1966.918,"body":"And in the same sprint, if not the same"},{"startTime":1962.708,"endTime":1966.918,"body":"sprint, put it back in the backlog,"},{"startTime":1967.018,"endTime":1968.938,"body":"but at least conduct the spike now."},{"startTime":1969.248,"endTime":1969.548,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1969.778,"endTime":1972.348,"body":"The podcast that will proceed immediately."},{"startTime":1972.358,"endTime":1976.638,"body":"This one we made a heavy Emphasis"},{"startTime":1972.358,"endTime":1976.638,"body":"on team topologies, like the book,"},{"startTime":1976.638,"endTime":1980.928,"body":"team topologies and one of the"},{"startTime":1976.638,"endTime":1980.928,"body":"interactions methods of the way that"},{"startTime":1980.928,"endTime":1983.188,"body":"teams work together is collaboration."},{"startTime":1983.188,"endTime":1987.318,"body":"Meaning like, like when we're planning"},{"startTime":1983.188,"endTime":1987.318,"body":"work, when we're performing work,"},{"startTime":1987.318,"endTime":1991.088,"body":"like my team is going to temporarily"},{"startTime":1987.318,"endTime":1991.088,"body":"join your team while the work is"},{"startTime":1991.088,"endTime":1992.718,"body":"happening that we need overlap for."},{"startTime":1992.973,"endTime":1994.513,"body":"And then I'll go back to do whatever."},{"startTime":1994.673,"endTime":2000.693,"body":"So if you're, if you're architect, for"},{"startTime":1994.673,"endTime":2000.693,"body":"example, is a member of the, the team of"},{"startTime":2000.723,"endTime":2003.663,"body":"leads, I'm going to put it in super air"},{"startTime":2000.723,"endTime":2003.663,"body":"quotes for people that are listening."},{"startTime":2003.783,"endTime":2004.583,"body":"Where, where are my hands?"},{"startTime":2004.733,"endTime":2007.353,"body":"Super air quotes that over here,"},{"startTime":2004.733,"endTime":2007.353,"body":"tiny little super air quotes."},{"startTime":2007.513,"endTime":2008.053,"body":"Looks great."},{"startTime":2008.193,"endTime":2011.483,"body":"if they're, if they're joining your"},{"startTime":2008.193,"endTime":2011.483,"body":"team temporarily to help you through"},{"startTime":2011.483,"endTime":2014.013,"body":"the work and then bouncing off your"},{"startTime":2011.483,"endTime":2014.013,"body":"team, because they got other things"},{"startTime":2014.013,"endTime":2017.933,"body":"to do, you have this enabling team"},{"startTime":2014.013,"endTime":2017.933,"body":"on paper that is all your people that"},{"startTime":2017.933,"endTime":2022.193,"body":"are spread across the teams that are"},{"startTime":2017.933,"endTime":2022.193,"body":"their leads, their managers, their"},{"startTime":2022.193,"endTime":2023.643,"body":"enablers, basically to your team members."},{"startTime":2023.793,"endTime":2028.603,"body":"If that's where your architects sit, where"},{"startTime":2023.793,"endTime":2028.603,"body":"they're not dedicated to any one team,"},{"startTime":2028.863,"endTime":2033.083,"body":"but their skills are both required and"},{"startTime":2028.863,"endTime":2033.083,"body":"needed on every team, right now, they're"},{"startTime":2033.083,"endTime":2037.003,"body":"not required and needed 100 percent"},{"startTime":2033.083,"endTime":2037.003,"body":"of every sprint for every team all the"},{"startTime":2037.003,"endTime":2038.463,"body":"time, because that would be ridiculous."},{"startTime":2038.583,"endTime":2041.393,"body":"Everyone's experience is different,"},{"startTime":2038.583,"endTime":2041.393,"body":"but only in my experience, like 90"},{"startTime":2041.853,"endTime":2045.503,"body":"percent of what you need is done during"},{"startTime":2041.853,"endTime":2045.503,"body":"the planning to say, Hey, when you"},{"startTime":2045.503,"endTime":2049.788,"body":"actually go to execute, Adding this"},{"startTime":2045.503,"endTime":2049.788,"body":"trigger to the database or adding this"},{"startTime":2049.908,"endTime":2051.128,"body":"store procedure or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":2051.228,"endTime":2053.698,"body":"And when you actually go to"},{"startTime":2051.228,"endTime":2053.698,"body":"execute it, get me on the call."},{"startTime":2053.708,"endTime":2054.608,"body":"We'll sit together."},{"startTime":2054.658,"endTime":2057.028,"body":"we'll peer and test it and"},{"startTime":2054.658,"endTime":2057.028,"body":"make sure it works or whatever."},{"startTime":2057.028,"endTime":2060.598,"body":"Or we need to spin up this new environment"},{"startTime":2057.028,"endTime":2060.598,"body":"or whatever, you can get them on the"},{"startTime":2060.598,"endTime":2063.978,"body":"call and get them ready for that,"},{"startTime":2060.598,"endTime":2063.978,"body":"That's one way, but team topologies"},{"startTime":2063.988,"endTime":2068.518,"body":"also talk about vertical slicing where"},{"startTime":2063.988,"endTime":2068.518,"body":"you do not wait for external resources"},{"startTime":2068.668,"endTime":2070.498,"body":"that need to unblock you, right?"},{"startTime":2070.498,"endTime":2078.712,"body":"hard uh, to  implement agile with all of"},{"startTime":2070.498,"endTime":2078.712,"body":"these facets on a multi team environment,"},{"startTime":2078.862,"endTime":2083.692,"body":"it's very easy to run agile in one single"},{"startTime":2078.862,"endTime":2083.692,"body":"team, working on feature development in"},{"startTime":2083.692,"endTime":2085.662,"body":"the R and D team or whatever you want."},{"startTime":2085.947,"endTime":2089.467,"body":"It's very hard once you need"},{"startTime":2085.947,"endTime":2089.467,"body":"to scale it and make it bigger."},{"startTime":2089.707,"endTime":2091.777,"body":"And then there's other"},{"startTime":2089.707,"endTime":2091.777,"body":"people that are dependent."},{"startTime":2091.927,"endTime":2097.357,"body":"And that's the ultimate reason why"},{"startTime":2091.927,"endTime":2097.357,"body":"people are like, Oh, agile is not."},{"startTime":2097.507,"endTime":2098.177,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2098.367,"endTime":2099.957,"body":"Oh, I was going to say"},{"startTime":2098.367,"endTime":2099.957,"body":"agile doesn't work here."},{"startTime":2100.157,"endTime":2100.407,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2100.417,"endTime":2101.067,"body":"That's a good one."},{"startTime":2101.212,"endTime":2102.752,"body":"It doesn't actually work here either."},{"startTime":2102.902,"endTime":2103.842,"body":"you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":2103.842,"endTime":2108.642,"body":"I'm like, if the borders of Agile are"},{"startTime":2103.842,"endTime":2108.642,"body":"a customer finds value with what the"},{"startTime":2108.642,"endTime":2113.102,"body":"development team is doing, and then you"},{"startTime":2108.642,"endTime":2113.102,"body":"have to figure out how to constantly"},{"startTime":2113.112,"endTime":2116.252,"body":"expand that border and then expand the"},{"startTime":2113.112,"endTime":2116.252,"body":"next border and expand the next border."},{"startTime":2116.402,"endTime":2116.702,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2116.702,"endTime":2117.972,"body":"It's going to get more and more difficult."},{"startTime":2117.982,"endTime":2122.282,"body":"I mean, the way to make it easier would"},{"startTime":2117.982,"endTime":2122.282,"body":"be to figure out how to Take the larger"},{"startTime":2122.282,"endTime":2126.892,"body":"organization and start breaking the"},{"startTime":2122.282,"endTime":2126.892,"body":"larger organization down into boundaries"},{"startTime":2127.122,"endTime":2130.932,"body":"So that certain customers only talk"},{"startTime":2127.122,"endTime":2130.932,"body":"to segments of the organization, but"},{"startTime":2130.932,"endTime":2134.292,"body":"at that point like now we're it we're"},{"startTime":2130.932,"endTime":2134.292,"body":"in another podcast Yeah, design."},{"startTime":2134.372,"endTime":2138.652,"body":"I run two businesses and one of them is"},{"startTime":2134.372,"endTime":2138.652,"body":"doing development for other businesses."},{"startTime":2139.002,"endTime":2144.162,"body":"So I have teams that are working for"},{"startTime":2139.002,"endTime":2144.162,"body":"clients and I also have a startup."},{"startTime":2144.232,"endTime":2146.422,"body":"So one, which is working for itself."},{"startTime":2146.572,"endTime":2150.982,"body":"So where I have a team working for"},{"startTime":2146.572,"endTime":2150.982,"body":"clients, we develop the software that's in"},{"startTime":2150.982,"endTime":2156.102,"body":"the backlog and then we immediately put it"},{"startTime":2150.982,"endTime":2156.102,"body":"through the demo and review by the client."},{"startTime":2156.252,"endTime":2158.932,"body":"And then the client comes back"},{"startTime":2156.252,"endTime":2158.932,"body":"and says, Hey guys, we'd like"},{"startTime":2158.932,"endTime":2160.432,"body":"you to take another look at here."},{"startTime":2160.432,"endTime":2164.182,"body":"We want you to iterate one more time"},{"startTime":2160.432,"endTime":2164.182,"body":"here and it's finding improvements"},{"startTime":2164.182,"endTime":2165.462,"body":"within the same implementation."},{"startTime":2165.462,"endTime":2169.642,"body":"So we don't actually get to a lot"},{"startTime":2165.462,"endTime":2169.642,"body":"of technical debt because the client"},{"startTime":2169.652,"endTime":2172.932,"body":"is helping us on iterating through,"},{"startTime":2169.652,"endTime":2172.932,"body":"they're taking a look at it and"},{"startTime":2172.932,"endTime":2174.592,"body":"providing the feedback immediately."},{"startTime":2174.742,"endTime":2179.292,"body":"On the startup side, this is"},{"startTime":2174.742,"endTime":2179.292,"body":"where we have not a single"},{"startTime":2179.292,"endTime":2180.572,"body":"client that can make decisions."},{"startTime":2180.572,"endTime":2181.012,"body":"We have."},{"startTime":2181.162,"endTime":2184.002,"body":"Lots of users and different"},{"startTime":2181.162,"endTime":2184.002,"body":"users have different values."},{"startTime":2184.002,"endTime":2188.842,"body":"So we have to place bets and make our"},{"startTime":2184.002,"endTime":2188.842,"body":"own decisions where we invest into the"},{"startTime":2188.842,"endTime":2191.532,"body":"right stuff for the client scenario."},{"startTime":2191.612,"endTime":2195.332,"body":"They're investing immediately into a"},{"startTime":2191.612,"endTime":2195.332,"body":"given functionality because they're"},{"startTime":2195.332,"endTime":2197.962,"body":"looking at that final value for us."},{"startTime":2197.972,"endTime":2203.082,"body":"We're looking at the entire market,"},{"startTime":2197.972,"endTime":2203.082,"body":"so we have to pick and choose."},{"startTime":2203.232,"endTime":2208.982,"body":"I think most people kind of don't really"},{"startTime":2203.232,"endTime":2208.982,"body":"think about the differences in your teams."},{"startTime":2209.272,"endTime":2212.772,"body":"They kind of treat, hey, tech"},{"startTime":2209.272,"endTime":2212.772,"body":"debt for us and tech debt for"},{"startTime":2212.792,"endTime":2214.172,"body":"another team are the same."},{"startTime":2214.422,"endTime":2215.982,"body":"No, the context is different."},{"startTime":2216.132,"endTime":2219.832,"body":"That was such a good ending, but"},{"startTime":2216.132,"endTime":2219.832,"body":"we didn't go back to refactoring."},{"startTime":2219.952,"endTime":2221.322,"body":"I want to go back to refactoring."},{"startTime":2221.322,"endTime":2225.542,"body":"Because as a, I feel the only reason I"},{"startTime":2221.322,"endTime":2225.542,"body":"could dig into refactoring is because"},{"startTime":2225.542,"endTime":2229.202,"body":"at one point in my career, I was a"},{"startTime":2225.542,"endTime":2229.202,"body":"QA engineer and I understand about"},{"startTime":2229.202,"endTime":2230.612,"body":"like, this test is not good enough."},{"startTime":2230.762,"endTime":2234.702,"body":"I need to go back the next time I'm in"},{"startTime":2230.762,"endTime":2234.702,"body":"this test to fix it because I know what's"},{"startTime":2234.702,"endTime":2238.972,"body":"wrong with it because I wrote it, but"},{"startTime":2234.702,"endTime":2238.972,"body":"I can only imagine like, well, we're,"},{"startTime":2238.992,"endTime":2240.792,"body":"we're, we're off of that feature, Alex."},{"startTime":2241.142,"endTime":2243.752,"body":"Like, I don't like, there's no reason"},{"startTime":2241.142,"endTime":2243.752,"body":"to go back into it and change it."},{"startTime":2243.972,"endTime":2245.012,"body":"It's working in production."},{"startTime":2245.232,"endTime":2247.732,"body":"Don't, don't bother touching"},{"startTime":2245.232,"endTime":2247.732,"body":"that  if you're anywhere,"},{"startTime":2247.782,"endTime":2249.102,"body":"anywhere near it in the future."},{"startTime":2249.252,"endTime":2253.702,"body":"Like I think I scared my team once as"},{"startTime":2249.252,"endTime":2253.702,"body":"a product manager, my development team."},{"startTime":2253.822,"endTime":2258.162,"body":"I think I scared them once when I said,"},{"startTime":2253.822,"endTime":2258.162,"body":"I don't want to talk about refactoring."},{"startTime":2258.162,"endTime":2261.512,"body":"Refactoring to me is"},{"startTime":2258.162,"endTime":2261.512,"body":"something that just happens."},{"startTime":2261.662,"endTime":2263.212,"body":"And they were confused."},{"startTime":2263.242,"endTime":2264.362,"body":"They didn't know what I meant."},{"startTime":2264.512,"endTime":2271.602,"body":"So as a developer, if I come across code"},{"startTime":2264.512,"endTime":2271.602,"body":"that can be improved and all I'm really"},{"startTime":2271.602,"endTime":2275.512,"body":"doing is fixing one of the ilities,"},{"startTime":2271.602,"endTime":2275.512,"body":"but I'm using refactor tools and I'm"},{"startTime":2275.512,"endTime":2277.452,"body":"not changing the business logic, right?"},{"startTime":2277.602,"endTime":2280.712,"body":"You know, if it's one of those"},{"startTime":2277.602,"endTime":2280.712,"body":"shortcut things in my IntelliJ"},{"startTime":2280.712,"endTime":2284.352,"body":"or something, no issues with that"},{"startTime":2280.712,"endTime":2284.352,"body":"refactor as you go, because you're"},{"startTime":2284.352,"endTime":2285.532,"body":"not actually changing anything."},{"startTime":2285.682,"endTime":2287.822,"body":"However, we do make mistakes."},{"startTime":2287.972,"endTime":2291.642,"body":"So if you're touching the code that"},{"startTime":2287.972,"endTime":2291.642,"body":"you weren't supposed to touch, what"},{"startTime":2291.652,"endTime":2296.252,"body":"you just did is included the change"},{"startTime":2291.652,"endTime":2296.252,"body":"that was unintentional, unsanctioned,"},{"startTime":2296.402,"endTime":2301.132,"body":"and not agreed upon, and caught"},{"startTime":2296.402,"endTime":2301.132,"body":"by the change detector or test."},{"startTime":2301.282,"endTime":2305.922,"body":"Doing that, you can cause significant"},{"startTime":2301.282,"endTime":2305.922,"body":"problems, including the blue screens"},{"startTime":2306.182,"endTime":2310.042,"body":"and whatever else, that was never"},{"startTime":2306.182,"endTime":2310.042,"body":"actually covered by regression testing"},{"startTime":2310.042,"endTime":2311.227,"body":"or anybody consciously doing it."},{"startTime":2311.377,"endTime":2315.407,"body":"So in some environments, they"},{"startTime":2311.377,"endTime":2315.407,"body":"promote that type of behavior."},{"startTime":2315.557,"endTime":2319.867,"body":"In other environment, it's frowned"},{"startTime":2315.557,"endTime":2319.867,"body":"upon for the very specific reason."},{"startTime":2320.017,"endTime":2325.497,"body":"Refactoring for readability or other"},{"startTime":2320.017,"endTime":2325.497,"body":"things that may improve developer"},{"startTime":2325.497,"endTime":2330.887,"body":"operations has significant risk because"},{"startTime":2325.497,"endTime":2330.887,"body":"you can break something in the process."},{"startTime":2331.227,"endTime":2333.717,"body":"And I've done a lot of heavy refactoring."},{"startTime":2333.952,"endTime":2335.112,"body":"And I broke things."},{"startTime":2335.112,"endTime":2337.972,"body":"And as a matter of fact, if you're"},{"startTime":2335.112,"endTime":2337.972,"body":"going to do refactoring right,"},{"startTime":2338.182,"endTime":2340.102,"body":"you better break things first."},{"startTime":2340.252,"endTime":2343.402,"body":"So, it does have a significant problem."},{"startTime":2343.442,"endTime":2346.002,"body":"And people will say, well,"},{"startTime":2343.442,"endTime":2346.002,"body":"we have plenty of tests."},{"startTime":2346.332,"endTime":2347.402,"body":"I don't believe that at all."},{"startTime":2347.552,"endTime":2351.712,"body":"I think there's always tests you can"},{"startTime":2347.552,"endTime":2351.712,"body":"make because tests can be exhaustive"},{"startTime":2351.712,"endTime":2355.302,"body":"and you know, there's a lot of tests"},{"startTime":2351.712,"endTime":2355.302,"body":"that depend on the specific data."},{"startTime":2355.332,"endTime":2357.822,"body":"You load different data"},{"startTime":2355.332,"endTime":2357.822,"body":"in it and it breaks."},{"startTime":2357.972,"endTime":2363.272,"body":"So I'd say that it needs to be a"},{"startTime":2357.972,"endTime":2363.272,"body":"conscious decision to refactor."},{"startTime":2363.422,"endTime":2365.772,"body":"Because again, what does"},{"startTime":2363.422,"endTime":2365.772,"body":"refactoring actually do?"},{"startTime":2366.022,"endTime":2369.222,"body":"It changes the structure, the"},{"startTime":2366.022,"endTime":2369.222,"body":"architecture, the design, it"},{"startTime":2369.222,"endTime":2370.962,"body":"changes naming conventions."},{"startTime":2370.962,"endTime":2371.752,"body":"It changes."},{"startTime":2371.902,"endTime":2373.452,"body":"Where the business logic sits."},{"startTime":2373.602,"endTime":2375.752,"body":"Does that impact user value?"},{"startTime":2375.922,"endTime":2376.712,"body":"It shouldn't, right?"},{"startTime":2376.722,"endTime":2377.972,"body":"That's by definition."},{"startTime":2378.032,"endTime":2380.432,"body":"if it doesn't affect it, and"},{"startTime":2378.032,"endTime":2380.432,"body":"the user is already happy"},{"startTime":2380.432,"endTime":2381.592,"body":"with it, why are you doing it?"},{"startTime":2381.622,"endTime":2382.712,"body":"What's the interest?"},{"startTime":2382.862,"endTime":2385.142,"body":"So I learned that lesson a long time ago."},{"startTime":2385.292,"endTime":2390.232,"body":"One of my first few jobs,"},{"startTime":2385.292,"endTime":2390.232,"body":"we were doing reports using"},{"startTime":2390.262,"endTime":2392.292,"body":"XSLT transformation from XML."},{"startTime":2392.492,"endTime":2394.762,"body":"You're getting a pretty page for printing."},{"startTime":2394.912,"endTime":2399.652,"body":"And I was constantly annoyed because"},{"startTime":2394.912,"endTime":2399.652,"body":"anytime we ran the report, there were bugs"},{"startTime":2399.802,"endTime":2401.782,"body":"and you would always like fix a bug here."},{"startTime":2401.782,"endTime":2404.372,"body":"One hour, two hours, like really annoying."},{"startTime":2404.372,"endTime":2404.522,"body":"And."},{"startTime":2404.672,"endTime":2408.642,"body":"It's, it's weird because it was copy"},{"startTime":2404.672,"endTime":2408.642,"body":"and pasted code that was duplicated all"},{"startTime":2408.642,"endTime":2410.882,"body":"across and I finally had enough of it."},{"startTime":2411.032,"endTime":2415.552,"body":"So over a couple weekends, I picked it"},{"startTime":2411.032,"endTime":2415.552,"body":"up unsanctioned, didn't tell anybody"},{"startTime":2415.552,"endTime":2419.852,"body":"I was doing this, and I just started"},{"startTime":2415.552,"endTime":2419.852,"body":"fixing it and I refactored it completely."},{"startTime":2419.852,"endTime":2424.372,"body":"The quality was great, except I didn't"},{"startTime":2419.852,"endTime":2424.372,"body":"leave time for testing completely."},{"startTime":2424.522,"endTime":2426.662,"body":"And nobody knew that I"},{"startTime":2424.522,"endTime":2426.662,"body":"was making these changes."},{"startTime":2426.662,"endTime":2429.512,"body":"And when it came time for me to deliver"},{"startTime":2426.662,"endTime":2429.512,"body":"it, people were like, well, so this"},{"startTime":2429.512,"endTime":2431.052,"body":"is where you were wasting the time."},{"startTime":2431.252,"endTime":2434.652,"body":"And I couldn't really explain it"},{"startTime":2431.252,"endTime":2434.652,"body":"that I really just was annoying."},{"startTime":2434.662,"endTime":2437.832,"body":"and that's when I learned the lesson"},{"startTime":2434.662,"endTime":2437.832,"body":"that you can't just do these things just"},{"startTime":2437.832,"endTime":2439.582,"body":"because you feel the code is not perfect."},{"startTime":2439.732,"endTime":2442.812,"body":"You have to, even though you're"},{"startTime":2439.732,"endTime":2442.812,"body":"annoyed, you have to bring it up"},{"startTime":2442.812,"endTime":2444.512,"body":"and collaborate and talk about it."},{"startTime":2444.832,"endTime":2446.832,"body":"So you got to surface it to the top."},{"startTime":2447.082,"endTime":2450.812,"body":"And if you surface it enough and say,"},{"startTime":2447.082,"endTime":2450.812,"body":"look, we're constantly getting distracted."},{"startTime":2451.142,"endTime":2454.382,"body":"Chances are you will be given an"},{"startTime":2451.142,"endTime":2454.382,"body":"opportunity to tackle it because most"},{"startTime":2454.382,"endTime":2456.772,"body":"people, most bosses are like this."},{"startTime":2457.102,"endTime":2459.362,"body":"Hey, don't come to me with a"},{"startTime":2457.102,"endTime":2459.362,"body":"problem unless you have a solution."},{"startTime":2459.412,"endTime":2459.762,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2459.912,"endTime":2464.952,"body":"I think you know, good development"},{"startTime":2459.912,"endTime":2464.952,"body":"shops cultivate a habit of sensing when"},{"startTime":2464.962,"endTime":2466.662,"body":"there's a need to do refactoring, right?"},{"startTime":2466.692,"endTime":2467.782,"body":"Code spells, right?"},{"startTime":2467.812,"endTime":2471.872,"body":"Looking at things like dead code"},{"startTime":2467.812,"endTime":2471.872,"body":"or unnecessarily long parameter"},{"startTime":2471.872,"endTime":2474.932,"body":"lists or whatever it might"},{"startTime":2471.872,"endTime":2474.932,"body":"be, that it's still working."},{"startTime":2474.932,"endTime":2477.502,"body":"Your point is not changing"},{"startTime":2474.932,"endTime":2477.502,"body":"the functionality, but they"},{"startTime":2477.502,"endTime":2478.832,"body":"can make it better, right?"},{"startTime":2478.842,"endTime":2480.572,"body":"Data clubs, things like that."},{"startTime":2480.912,"endTime":2485.462,"body":"Unnecessary primitive variables,"},{"startTime":2480.912,"endTime":2485.462,"body":"So at some point, in our industry,"},{"startTime":2485.462,"endTime":2488.842,"body":"we started getting those tools that"},{"startTime":2485.462,"endTime":2488.842,"body":"scan the code and pop those things"},{"startTime":2488.892,"endTime":2490.802,"body":"up and are very, very annoying."},{"startTime":2491.152,"endTime":2494.782,"body":"If I'm an engineer and I have to"},{"startTime":2491.152,"endTime":2494.782,"body":"solve those nitpicking things,"},{"startTime":2494.932,"endTime":2496.932,"body":"I hated it every single time."},{"startTime":2497.212,"endTime":2501.352,"body":"But if I discovered something because"},{"startTime":2497.212,"endTime":2501.352,"body":"I was annoyed to it and I had to work"},{"startTime":2501.352,"endTime":2505.092,"body":"on it, I'd be the first one bubbling"},{"startTime":2501.352,"endTime":2505.092,"body":"that thing up because I want to fix it."},{"startTime":2505.372,"endTime":2506.022,"body":"Definitely."},{"startTime":2506.022,"endTime":2506.912,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2507.092,"endTime":2509.852,"body":"My team was thoroughly freaked out"},{"startTime":2507.092,"endTime":2509.852,"body":"when I just didn't want to engage"},{"startTime":2509.862,"endTime":2511.132,"body":"on the refactoring conversation."},{"startTime":2511.132,"endTime":2513.762,"body":"Even with what you just"},{"startTime":2511.132,"endTime":2513.762,"body":"brought up, there's too much"},{"startTime":2513.782,"endTime":2515.552,"body":"nuance to be like, Hey, Mr."},{"startTime":2515.552,"endTime":2516.943,"body":"Product Manager, which product?"},{"startTime":2517.093,"endTime":2520.683,"body":"Like parts of the code should we refactor"},{"startTime":2517.093,"endTime":2520.683,"body":"and which parts like which parts should"},{"startTime":2520.683,"endTime":2525.103,"body":"we decide is normal cost of doing business"},{"startTime":2520.683,"endTime":2525.103,"body":"and which parts should we decide is as"},{"startTime":2525.103,"endTime":2528.763,"body":"much as like an enhancement and which"},{"startTime":2525.103,"endTime":2528.763,"body":"parts is like a bug or whatever and I"},{"startTime":2528.763,"endTime":2532.453,"body":"was like guys I was like I'm not in the"},{"startTime":2528.763,"endTime":2532.453,"body":"code with you sitting over your shoulder"},{"startTime":2532.473,"endTime":2536.643,"body":"I have to like I don't want to be in this"},{"startTime":2532.473,"endTime":2536.643,"body":"discussion you tell me and I think they"},{"startTime":2536.643,"endTime":2537.933,"body":"were thoroughly freaked out with that."},{"startTime":2538.203,"endTime":2540.483,"body":"Well no they made a number one mistake."},{"startTime":2540.633,"endTime":2545.753,"body":"Assuming that you have exactly same"},{"startTime":2540.633,"endTime":2545.753,"body":"context, but your context is user value."},{"startTime":2545.753,"endTime":2547.783,"body":"Your context is not code quality, right?"},{"startTime":2547.843,"endTime":2552.343,"body":"You rely on them to write the best code"},{"startTime":2547.843,"endTime":2552.343,"body":"possible with the information they have."},{"startTime":2552.343,"endTime":2555.713,"body":"And if they failed, well, then"},{"startTime":2552.343,"endTime":2555.713,"body":"they need to justify while."},{"startTime":2555.783,"endTime":2560.153,"body":"Why that specific improvement"},{"startTime":2555.783,"endTime":2560.153,"body":"needs to be a backlog item"},{"startTime":2560.153,"endTime":2561.413,"body":"with a tech debt label on it."},{"startTime":2561.613,"endTime":2565.333,"body":"I will tell you, I am this developer,"},{"startTime":2561.613,"endTime":2565.333,"body":"by the way, with my, with the, like the"},{"startTime":2565.333,"endTime":2569.503,"body":"code I do for the podcast and whatnot,"},{"startTime":2565.333,"endTime":2569.503,"body":"like I'm this developer, I cannot stand."},{"startTime":2569.653,"endTime":2573.083,"body":"Functions, like I have, I,"},{"startTime":2569.653,"endTime":2573.083,"body":"for the podcast, I have two"},{"startTime":2573.083,"endTime":2574.463,"body":"functions that do the same thing."},{"startTime":2574.613,"endTime":2575.843,"body":"They do the exact same thing."},{"startTime":2575.973,"endTime":2576.653,"body":"Zoom in, zoom out."},{"startTime":2576.833,"endTime":2579.503,"body":"They take different variables,"},{"startTime":2576.833,"endTime":2579.503,"body":"but they do the same thing."},{"startTime":2579.653,"endTime":2583.793,"body":"And I can't stand that I am too"},{"startTime":2579.653,"endTime":2583.793,"body":"lazy to go back and refactor them."},{"startTime":2583.823,"endTime":2587.883,"body":"I easily could refactor them to add a"},{"startTime":2583.823,"endTime":2587.883,"body":"little statement to say, Oh, if you got"},{"startTime":2587.883,"endTime":2591.043,"body":"this extra variable and do this extra"},{"startTime":2587.883,"endTime":2591.043,"body":"logic, I'm way too lazy to do that."},{"startTime":2591.193,"endTime":2594.973,"body":"So I completely understand the"},{"startTime":2591.193,"endTime":2594.973,"body":"developer who says, I don't like"},{"startTime":2594.973,"endTime":2599.453,"body":"seeing duplicate code, basically copy"},{"startTime":2594.973,"endTime":2599.453,"body":"pasted code, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2599.463,"endTime":2600.223,"body":"In different functions."},{"startTime":2600.373,"endTime":2601.143,"body":"I don't like that."},{"startTime":2601.293,"endTime":2603.093,"body":"We should just refactor this one function."},{"startTime":2603.163,"endTime":2606.193,"body":"it's much easier to read, to"},{"startTime":2603.163,"endTime":2606.193,"body":"understand, oh, you're passing it to"},{"startTime":2606.193,"endTime":2607.883,"body":"the function with these variables."},{"startTime":2607.933,"endTime":2609.413,"body":"So I have developers on my team."},{"startTime":2609.563,"endTime":2612.673,"body":"Who say like, I can't"},{"startTime":2609.563,"endTime":2612.673,"body":"stand copy pasted code."},{"startTime":2612.833,"endTime":2613.783,"body":"I need to refactor it."},{"startTime":2613.873,"endTime":2616.783,"body":"for anybody that hates copy"},{"startTime":2613.873,"endTime":2616.783,"body":"pasted code, that's called turbo"},{"startTime":2616.783,"endTime":2619.133,"body":"coding from before two thousands."},{"startTime":2619.283,"endTime":2624.133,"body":"However, as an architect, I have"},{"startTime":2619.283,"endTime":2624.133,"body":"to show the opposite side of it."},{"startTime":2624.193,"endTime":2626.583,"body":"And that's actually code isolation."},{"startTime":2626.733,"endTime":2630.783,"body":"So if you want to avoid doing refactoring"},{"startTime":2626.733,"endTime":2630.783,"body":"and somebody tells you to optimize,"},{"startTime":2631.083,"endTime":2636.283,"body":"just say, Hey, I'm keeping the code"},{"startTime":2631.083,"endTime":2636.283,"body":"isolated so that if something breaks in"},{"startTime":2636.283,"endTime":2638.873,"body":"one area, it does not impact another."},{"startTime":2639.023,"endTime":2642.033,"body":"Yeah, I mean we just talked all"},{"startTime":2639.023,"endTime":2642.033,"body":"around the world about technical debt."},{"startTime":2642.083,"endTime":2644.833,"body":"I don't know if we hit any the"},{"startTime":2642.083,"endTime":2644.833,"body":"other  the only thing we didn't hit"},{"startTime":2644.883,"endTime":2648.294,"body":"was we talked about a real early in"},{"startTime":2644.883,"endTime":2648.294,"body":"the podcast is, is there a way to"},{"startTime":2648.294,"endTime":2651.334,"body":"use technical debt to your benefit?"},{"startTime":2651.484,"endTime":2651.774,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2651.774,"endTime":2655.829,"body":"to use it as a scalpel, to say like,"},{"startTime":2651.774,"endTime":2655.829,"body":"Hey, I'm going to incur technical debt"},{"startTime":2655.839,"endTime":2660.709,"body":"in this specific area enough where"},{"startTime":2655.839,"endTime":2660.709,"body":"I can get this strong market signal."},{"startTime":2660.859,"endTime":2664.629,"body":"And then maybe I'll come around"},{"startTime":2660.859,"endTime":2664.629,"body":"in a second pass and make it"},{"startTime":2664.629,"endTime":2666.089,"body":"scalable or something like that."},{"startTime":2666.319,"endTime":2670.779,"body":"We do this all the time with usability"},{"startTime":2666.319,"endTime":2670.779,"body":"testing do you need a pixel perfect"},{"startTime":2670.779,"endTime":2674.199,"body":"design with everything perfect, or do"},{"startTime":2670.779,"endTime":2674.199,"body":"you just want to, Test out something"},{"startTime":2674.199,"endTime":2677.349,"body":"that quickly works and evaluate"},{"startTime":2674.199,"endTime":2677.349,"body":"if the users are going to use it."},{"startTime":2677.499,"endTime":2681.849,"body":"You know, you and I, we kind of"},{"startTime":2677.499,"endTime":2681.849,"body":"talked about adding menu items that"},{"startTime":2681.849,"endTime":2683.969,"body":"say, Oh, click feature coming soon."},{"startTime":2684.149,"endTime":2684.729,"body":"Fake door test."},{"startTime":2684.779,"endTime":2684.979,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2684.979,"endTime":2685.269,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2685.269,"endTime":2686.329,"body":"Fake door testing."},{"startTime":2686.339,"endTime":2687.809,"body":"That's another."},{"startTime":2688.029,"endTime":2689.709,"body":"You know, possible tech debt thing."},{"startTime":2689.799,"endTime":2693.499,"body":"I mean, you don't necessarily"},{"startTime":2689.799,"endTime":2693.499,"body":"need to have a fake door."},{"startTime":2693.499,"endTime":2697.179,"body":"You could have maybe just small"},{"startTime":2693.499,"endTime":2697.179,"body":"functionality and expand it later if"},{"startTime":2697.179,"endTime":2702.169,"body":"you're so there are ways to, to test the"},{"startTime":2697.179,"endTime":2702.169,"body":"system and test the user's behaviors."},{"startTime":2702.179,"endTime":2706.759,"body":"That way you don't always need to"},{"startTime":2702.179,"endTime":2706.759,"body":"implement fully featured solution again."},{"startTime":2706.769,"endTime":2708.909,"body":"You know, if we were"},{"startTime":2706.769,"endTime":2708.909,"body":"doing waterfall, we would."},{"startTime":2709.059,"endTime":2711.999,"body":"But we're not, we're not"},{"startTime":2709.059,"endTime":2711.999,"body":"building something that can't be"},{"startTime":2711.999,"endTime":2713.539,"body":"changed or it's hard to change."},{"startTime":2713.689,"endTime":2718.709,"body":"We're going towards the agile movement"},{"startTime":2713.689,"endTime":2718.709,"body":"where rapid change is what we want."},{"startTime":2718.729,"endTime":2723.749,"body":"We want immediate feedback and we're"},{"startTime":2718.729,"endTime":2723.749,"body":"okay getting clarity later when"},{"startTime":2723.749,"endTime":2725.669,"body":"we'll have the ability to stabilize."},{"startTime":2725.669,"endTime":2727.499,"body":"I mean, how many products do you know?"},{"startTime":2727.814,"endTime":2731.444,"body":"There are so riddle in tech debt,"},{"startTime":2727.814,"endTime":2731.444,"body":"but they've captured the market"},{"startTime":2731.704,"endTime":2733.594,"body":"and then built out version 2."},{"startTime":2733.594,"endTime":2734.484,"body":"0 right?"},{"startTime":2734.634,"endTime":2737.684,"body":"Because at that point you have"},{"startTime":2734.634,"endTime":2737.684,"body":"so much tech debt that you want"},{"startTime":2737.684,"endTime":2739.254,"body":"to do it from scratch, right?"},{"startTime":2739.324,"endTime":2739.664,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2739.674,"endTime":2739.944,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2739.944,"endTime":2740.548,"body":"And you have the funds."},{"startTime":2740.619,"endTime":2744.079,"body":"Full clarity of the market and"},{"startTime":2740.619,"endTime":2744.079,"body":"user and everything else, which"},{"startTime":2744.079,"endTime":2745.519,"body":"you simply didn't have before."},{"startTime":2745.569,"endTime":2749.649,"body":"But  most, most companies at that point"},{"startTime":2745.569,"endTime":2749.649,"body":"where they're making money, they're"},{"startTime":2749.649,"endTime":2752.539,"body":"not going to turn into development"},{"startTime":2749.649,"endTime":2752.539,"body":"teams for the next three months."},{"startTime":2752.539,"endTime":2756.479,"body":"We're going to rearchitect the backend"},{"startTime":2752.539,"endTime":2756.479,"body":"so that we can, which means, which means"},{"startTime":2756.479,"endTime":2759.029,"body":"they didn't incur heavy enough debt."},{"startTime":2759.179,"endTime":2761.909,"body":"If they were running the old thing"},{"startTime":2759.179,"endTime":2761.909,"body":"and they're running a hundred"},{"startTime":2761.909,"endTime":2766.779,"body":"people team, right, in order to"},{"startTime":2761.909,"endTime":2766.779,"body":"operate something relatively small,"},{"startTime":2766.799,"endTime":2768.559,"body":"because it's riddled in tech debt."},{"startTime":2768.894,"endTime":2773.584,"body":"But if they re engineered it and they"},{"startTime":2768.894,"endTime":2773.584,"body":"had a 25 man team that was able to do the"},{"startTime":2773.584,"endTime":2775.794,"body":"same thing, I think they would reconsider."},{"startTime":2775.934,"endTime":2777.884,"body":"So I think it's merely"},{"startTime":2775.934,"endTime":2777.884,"body":"of putting the picture."},{"startTime":2777.924,"endTime":2781.324,"body":"Now, hopefully they don't find"},{"startTime":2777.924,"endTime":2781.324,"body":"any of anybody super aggressive."},{"startTime":2781.324,"endTime":2785.304,"body":"That's going to stake the claim in"},{"startTime":2781.324,"endTime":2785.304,"body":"that and throw everybody under the loop"},{"startTime":2785.304,"endTime":2787.364,"body":"expecting to implement this quickly."},{"startTime":2787.514,"endTime":2790.124,"body":"But you know, those are some of"},{"startTime":2787.514,"endTime":2790.124,"body":"the things we've seen people do."},{"startTime":2790.184,"endTime":2790.584,"body":"Indeed."},{"startTime":2790.614,"endTime":2794.794,"body":"One last comment before we wrap up"},{"startTime":2790.614,"endTime":2794.794,"body":"here in our discussion, we talked about"},{"startTime":2794.814,"endTime":2799.564,"body":"applications having things that people"},{"startTime":2794.814,"endTime":2799.564,"body":"don't see like APIs, for example, right."},{"startTime":2799.624,"endTime":2800.904,"body":"Absolutely applies there."},{"startTime":2801.204,"endTime":2805.944,"body":"So you could use techniques there as well,"},{"startTime":2801.204,"endTime":2805.944,"body":"trying to get to market with an API that."},{"startTime":2806.254,"endTime":2808.814,"body":"Portions of it are and the"},{"startTime":2806.254,"endTime":2808.814,"body":"rest of them are stubbed out."},{"startTime":2808.964,"endTime":2812.034,"body":"Then over a few sprints you"},{"startTime":2808.964,"endTime":2812.034,"body":"can remove more and more stubs."},{"startTime":2812.234,"endTime":2816.497,"body":"You're incurring tech debt, because"},{"startTime":2812.234,"endTime":2816.497,"body":"at that point, when you get to the"},{"startTime":2816.497,"endTime":2821.114,"body":"last piece, the last stub you remove,"},{"startTime":2816.497,"endTime":2821.114,"body":"maybe conditions have changed, new"},{"startTime":2821.124,"endTime":2825.534,"body":"data sets come in, and now you're"},{"startTime":2821.124,"endTime":2825.534,"body":"gonna possibly have to go back, right?"},{"startTime":2825.764,"endTime":2829.304,"body":"So, yeah, and so that's also"},{"startTime":2825.764,"endTime":2829.304,"body":"something I wanted to say."},{"startTime":2829.304,"endTime":2833.444,"body":"It's not just applications that are"},{"startTime":2829.304,"endTime":2833.444,"body":"user facing that this applies in."},{"startTime":2833.474,"endTime":2837.074,"body":"And the other thing is, As far as"},{"startTime":2833.474,"endTime":2837.074,"body":"refactoring, you're never really done."},{"startTime":2837.224,"endTime":2838.994,"body":"You're never really done with refactoring."},{"startTime":2838.994,"endTime":2842.454,"body":"You're always in pursuit"},{"startTime":2838.994,"endTime":2842.454,"body":"of something better."},{"startTime":2842.604,"endTime":2845.334,"body":"You know, I like what you're"},{"startTime":2842.604,"endTime":2845.334,"body":"saying about the APIs."},{"startTime":2845.554,"endTime":2848.224,"body":"The API debt is actually something huge."},{"startTime":2848.284,"endTime":2848.714,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2849.004,"endTime":2853.814,"body":"When I had a chance to Work with"},{"startTime":2849.004,"endTime":2853.814,"body":"teams on the APIs as an architect."},{"startTime":2853.964,"endTime":2857.704,"body":"One of the things I saw is people"},{"startTime":2853.964,"endTime":2857.704,"body":"implement the API so quickly."},{"startTime":2857.704,"endTime":2860.694,"body":"They don't give it the afterthought"},{"startTime":2857.704,"endTime":2860.694,"body":"of how easy it is to adopt it."},{"startTime":2860.844,"endTime":2863.644,"body":"So they would have variables"},{"startTime":2860.844,"endTime":2863.644,"body":"that aren't clear structures"},{"startTime":2863.644,"endTime":2865.894,"body":"that are hard to understand."},{"startTime":2866.044,"endTime":2868.374,"body":"That's not what user expects."},{"startTime":2868.524,"endTime":2873.764,"body":"And the debt was to rebuild that"},{"startTime":2868.524,"endTime":2873.764,"body":"API in a way that makes it easy"},{"startTime":2873.764,"endTime":2875.394,"body":"for others to do business with you."},{"startTime":2875.544,"endTime":2878.524,"body":"Because that was part"},{"startTime":2875.544,"endTime":2878.524,"body":"of the sales approach."},{"startTime":2878.544,"endTime":2882.424,"body":"If you can integrate quickly,"},{"startTime":2878.544,"endTime":2882.424,"body":"you get to value quickly and"},{"startTime":2882.424,"endTime":2883.684,"body":"that helps everybody out."},{"startTime":2883.684,"endTime":2885.134,"body":"So that's another form of debt."},{"startTime":2885.134,"endTime":2886.124,"body":"I completely agree with you."},{"startTime":2886.274,"endTime":2886.844,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":2886.994,"endTime":2887.494,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2887.664,"endTime":2891.324,"body":"Well, thank you for the three people"},{"startTime":2887.664,"endTime":2891.324,"body":"that have still you know, stayed with us."},{"startTime":2891.374,"endTime":2891.564,"body":"Let us know."},{"startTime":2891.564,"endTime":2893.014,"body":"Wait, wait, does he count for two?"},{"startTime":2893.064,"endTime":2893.774,"body":"He counts for two."},{"startTime":2893.824,"endTime":2896.834,"body":"Let us know what you think about"},{"startTime":2893.824,"endTime":2896.834,"body":"this podcast in the comments below."},{"startTime":2896.884,"endTime":2900.284,"body":"And also, let us know other topics"},{"startTime":2896.884,"endTime":2900.284,"body":"that you'd like us to delve into."},{"startTime":2900.434,"endTime":2903.474,"body":"And last but not least, don't"},{"startTime":2900.434,"endTime":2903.474,"body":"forget to like and subscribe."}]}