{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.927,"endTime":13.537,"body":"Om, I want to tap your expertise today."},{"startTime":13.687,"endTime":17.737,"body":"I have a team and They want to move"},{"startTime":13.687,"endTime":17.737,"body":"from whatever they were doing to Kanban."},{"startTime":17.888,"endTime":18.377,"body":"Nice."},{"startTime":18.458,"endTime":18.888,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":19.148,"endTime":21.188,"body":"Surprisingly, we haven't"},{"startTime":19.148,"endTime":21.188,"body":"done this a podcast before."},{"startTime":21.188,"endTime":21.998,"body":"But yeah, Kanban."},{"startTime":22.298,"endTime":24.378,"body":"So I would ask the team a simple question."},{"startTime":24.528,"endTime":24.968,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":25.118,"endTime":26.958,"body":"Oh, that's because we"},{"startTime":25.118,"endTime":26.958,"body":"can eat pizza at 7 a."},{"startTime":26.958,"endTime":27.148,"body":"m."},{"startTime":27.148,"endTime":29.408,"body":"and throw out all the rules and we"},{"startTime":27.148,"endTime":29.408,"body":"don't have to do reviews and we don't"},{"startTime":29.408,"endTime":31.968,"body":"do plannings and we don't need a product"},{"startTime":29.408,"endTime":31.968,"body":"owner and we don't need a scrum master"},{"startTime":31.968,"endTime":33.627,"body":"and nobody can tell us what to do."},{"startTime":33.638,"endTime":37.387,"body":"We're going to live our lives at our own"},{"startTime":33.638,"endTime":37.387,"body":"speed and move to the middle of nowhere."},{"startTime":37.387,"endTime":40.097,"body":"throughout all the rules is typically"},{"startTime":37.387,"endTime":40.097,"body":"what the teams gravitate to, because"},{"startTime":40.107,"endTime":43.057,"body":"they say, we don't have to bother"},{"startTime":40.107,"endTime":43.057,"body":"with those, the overhead of all the"},{"startTime":43.197,"endTime":48.347,"body":"scrum events and all these meetings"},{"startTime":43.197,"endTime":48.347,"body":"it's a free for all basically."},{"startTime":48.357,"endTime":48.617,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":48.618,"endTime":48.877,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":49.027,"endTime":50.257,"body":"There's no daily stand up."},{"startTime":50.317,"endTime":54.377,"body":"Heck, there's not even a scrum"},{"startTime":50.317,"endTime":54.377,"body":"master because we're not doing scrum."},{"startTime":54.437,"endTime":55.547,"body":"There's not a Kanban master."},{"startTime":55.697,"endTime":57.937,"body":"So we're just going to"},{"startTime":55.697,"endTime":57.937,"body":"do what we want, right?"},{"startTime":58.087,"endTime":64.817,"body":"But digging deeper, why the need to"},{"startTime":58.087,"endTime":64.817,"body":"move away from a method of Just enough"},{"startTime":64.857,"endTime":69.827,"body":"planning up front with Scrum, if"},{"startTime":64.857,"endTime":69.827,"body":"you're doing it right to Kanban, right?"},{"startTime":70.017,"endTime":74.677,"body":"And if you dig deep enough, you may"},{"startTime":70.017,"endTime":74.677,"body":"find that the nature of the work coming"},{"startTime":74.677,"endTime":76.967,"body":"in through the funnel is sporadic."},{"startTime":77.117,"endTime":78.017,"body":"Unpredictable."},{"startTime":78.287,"endTime":83.772,"body":"And typically, Teams that ask for that"},{"startTime":78.287,"endTime":83.772,"body":"are those teams that are doing production"},{"startTime":83.772,"endTime":88.892,"body":"support type of work or outside of"},{"startTime":83.772,"endTime":88.892,"body":"it, like you just ad hoc as and when"},{"startTime":88.892,"endTime":92.492,"body":"things show up HR, for instance, you"},{"startTime":88.892,"endTime":92.492,"body":"don't know how many people are going"},{"startTime":92.492,"endTime":97.012,"body":"to be onboarding when you can't really"},{"startTime":92.492,"endTime":97.012,"body":"neatly time box that into a sprint."},{"startTime":97.272,"endTime":99.292,"body":"So as long as there's a reasonable."},{"startTime":99.442,"endTime":100.782,"body":"Cause to go combine."},{"startTime":100.792,"endTime":104.152,"body":"We can take this further and say,"},{"startTime":100.792,"endTime":104.152,"body":"okay, well, let's proceed, right?"},{"startTime":104.202,"endTime":105.552,"body":"Or does this actually mean let's,"},{"startTime":105.562,"endTime":110.942,"body":"let's say, for example, in this case that"},{"startTime":105.562,"endTime":110.942,"body":"you're breaking a big team in half, right?"},{"startTime":110.972,"endTime":114.152,"body":"And you're putting some more senior"},{"startTime":110.972,"endTime":114.152,"body":"people on one of the smaller teams."},{"startTime":114.442,"endTime":118.322,"body":"So they have been doing scrum for a long"},{"startTime":114.442,"endTime":118.322,"body":"time and they don't really need like that."},{"startTime":118.332,"endTime":120.332,"body":"They don't need the rituals"},{"startTime":118.332,"endTime":120.332,"body":"to keep them on the rails."},{"startTime":120.662,"endTime":123.252,"body":"So now they're ready to, they're"},{"startTime":120.662,"endTime":123.252,"body":"on the, they're either the hot"},{"startTime":123.252,"endTime":124.662,"body":"or the re part of shoe hurry."},{"startTime":124.662,"endTime":125.502,"body":"They're, they're ready."},{"startTime":125.502,"endTime":125.517,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":125.797,"endTime":127.047,"body":"To evolve their practices."},{"startTime":127.197,"endTime":131.177,"body":"Because let's say, for example, They,"},{"startTime":127.197,"endTime":131.177,"body":"the team is already starting to evolve"},{"startTime":131.177,"endTime":135.567,"body":"their practices where they don't do, they"},{"startTime":131.177,"endTime":135.567,"body":"don't need to have their sprint reviews."},{"startTime":135.567,"endTime":137.617,"body":"For example, we were"},{"startTime":135.567,"endTime":137.617,"body":"on a different podcast."},{"startTime":137.627,"endTime":141.927,"body":"One of ours where we say, Hey, maybe,"},{"startTime":137.627,"endTime":141.927,"body":"maybe you just want to, as you finish"},{"startTime":141.927,"endTime":145.487,"body":"each work item, you, you basically,"},{"startTime":141.927,"endTime":145.487,"body":"you pull the cord and you alert"},{"startTime":145.497,"endTime":149.547,"body":"everyone that, Hey, we need to, we'd"},{"startTime":145.497,"endTime":149.547,"body":"like to review for you this work item."},{"startTime":149.547,"endTime":152.267,"body":"You get everyone on a call ad"},{"startTime":149.547,"endTime":152.267,"body":"hoc and all your sprint reviews"},{"startTime":152.267,"endTime":154.447,"body":"then become immediately when"},{"startTime":152.267,"endTime":154.447,"body":"you're done with the item."},{"startTime":154.702,"endTime":156.532,"body":"It's close to when you're done"},{"startTime":154.702,"endTime":156.532,"body":"with the item as possible."},{"startTime":156.712,"endTime":159.002,"body":"You're showing it to the users"},{"startTime":156.712,"endTime":159.002,"body":"and now you don't need to have a"},{"startTime":159.322,"endTime":161.702,"body":"wait every two weeks type of deal."},{"startTime":161.722,"endTime":163.072,"body":"Same thing with like continuous delivery."},{"startTime":163.072,"endTime":168.432,"body":"You don't need to wait and hold all your"},{"startTime":163.072,"endTime":168.432,"body":"features or fixes or whatever for a two"},{"startTime":168.432,"endTime":169.842,"body":"week window to push it into production."},{"startTime":169.992,"endTime":171.142,"body":"You just push it into production."},{"startTime":171.172,"endTime":174.842,"body":"so I guess what I'm saying is for"},{"startTime":171.172,"endTime":174.842,"body":"a team that's already evolving out"},{"startTime":174.892,"endTime":176.842,"body":"of scrum, they're already advanced."},{"startTime":176.992,"endTime":177.702,"body":"Scrum works fine."},{"startTime":177.702,"endTime":180.442,"body":"They probably could keep doing that,"},{"startTime":177.702,"endTime":180.442,"body":"but maybe the team starts kind of."},{"startTime":180.787,"endTime":183.787,"body":"pushing you and saying, Hey"},{"startTime":180.787,"endTime":183.787,"body":"maybe we don't need these things."},{"startTime":183.787,"endTime":187.717,"body":"And then you kind of hear that stuff"},{"startTime":183.787,"endTime":187.717,"body":"and you think to yourself, Oh, well,"},{"startTime":187.727,"endTime":190.827,"body":"you guys are focusing much more on"},{"startTime":187.727,"endTime":190.827,"body":"flow than you are on the time boxes."},{"startTime":190.827,"endTime":194.417,"body":"And you guys are focusing much more on"},{"startTime":190.827,"endTime":194.417,"body":"the users than you are on the rituals"},{"startTime":194.417,"endTime":195.757,"body":"and the time boxes and stuff like that."},{"startTime":195.907,"endTime":196.877,"body":"Maybe you're ready."},{"startTime":197.027,"endTime":199.297,"body":"You know to become to become"},{"startTime":197.027,"endTime":199.297,"body":"a jedi is what i'm saying."},{"startTime":199.617,"endTime":200.467,"body":"That's Yeah, that's right."},{"startTime":200.467,"endTime":203.257,"body":"Your father wanted you to have this"},{"startTime":200.467,"endTime":203.257,"body":"when you're old enough you yeah So you"},{"startTime":203.257,"endTime":206.307,"body":"have these team members that have you"},{"startTime":203.257,"endTime":206.307,"body":"know work through like you said and"},{"startTime":206.307,"endTime":207.647,"body":"they've they've earned their parole."},{"startTime":207.787,"endTime":210.817,"body":"I I think if you're If you're"},{"startTime":207.787,"endTime":210.817,"body":"one of those people that is"},{"startTime":210.827,"endTime":212.417,"body":"skeptical about this, right?"},{"startTime":212.567,"endTime":214.317,"body":"We're not sure if this"},{"startTime":212.567,"endTime":214.317,"body":"is going to work or not."},{"startTime":214.467,"endTime":217.887,"body":"There's no reason to think"},{"startTime":214.467,"endTime":217.887,"body":"this is a do or die situation."},{"startTime":217.887,"endTime":218.327,"body":"Try it."},{"startTime":218.417,"endTime":220.997,"body":"That's, we've been real loose with the"},{"startTime":218.417,"endTime":220.997,"body":"format the last two or three episodes."},{"startTime":221.007,"endTime":221.307,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":221.347,"endTime":222.427,"body":"I can easily represent."},{"startTime":222.577,"endTime":225.767,"body":"All the managers and team leads"},{"startTime":222.577,"endTime":225.767,"body":"and senior engineers who've seen it"},{"startTime":225.767,"endTime":229.267,"body":"done wrong that know it's just a,"},{"startTime":225.767,"endTime":229.267,"body":"another label for chaos development."},{"startTime":229.577,"endTime":232.337,"body":"Like I can easily see them saying,"},{"startTime":229.577,"endTime":232.337,"body":"wait a minute, wait a minute."},{"startTime":232.527,"endTime":233.537,"body":"You're not going to use scrum."},{"startTime":233.687,"endTime":235.377,"body":"So what are you going to do?"},{"startTime":235.697,"endTime":236.907,"body":"You know, how are you"},{"startTime":235.697,"endTime":236.907,"body":"going to do your planning?"},{"startTime":236.927,"endTime":238.037,"body":"How are you going to intake work?"},{"startTime":238.047,"endTime":238.957,"body":"How are you going to plan?"},{"startTime":239.197,"endTime":240.317,"body":"When are you going to break your stories?"},{"startTime":240.337,"endTime":241.477,"body":"When are you going to do estimation?"},{"startTime":241.817,"endTime":245.527,"body":"There's a lot of questions coming"},{"startTime":241.817,"endTime":245.527,"body":"from a manager from the outside."},{"startTime":245.567,"endTime":245.797,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":246.092,"endTime":247.942,"body":"Yeah, it's a very scary to hear."},{"startTime":248.012,"endTime":252.362,"body":"I think it's the lack of structure and a"},{"startTime":248.012,"endTime":252.362,"body":"fixed cadence that scares most people that"},{"startTime":252.362,"endTime":256.112,"body":"are on the outside, because they're used"},{"startTime":252.362,"endTime":256.112,"body":"to having a meeting on their calendar,"},{"startTime":256.192,"endTime":259.932,"body":"attend for sprint review, for example,"},{"startTime":256.192,"endTime":259.932,"body":"where they're going to see what the"},{"startTime":259.932,"endTime":262.242,"body":"team's delivered in that last two weeks."},{"startTime":262.392,"endTime":264.582,"body":"And if they don't see that on"},{"startTime":262.392,"endTime":264.582,"body":"their calendar, because it's not"},{"startTime":264.582,"endTime":266.092,"body":"that the meeting doesn't happen."},{"startTime":266.152,"endTime":268.542,"body":"It just happens ad hoc as and when needed."},{"startTime":268.882,"endTime":272.202,"body":"It could happen two days in a row"},{"startTime":268.882,"endTime":272.202,"body":"and then not for another four days."},{"startTime":272.202,"endTime":273.992,"body":"so I guess the first thing that"},{"startTime":272.202,"endTime":273.992,"body":"needs to happen is we need to"},{"startTime":274.042,"endTime":278.762,"body":"teach people about the discipline"},{"startTime":274.042,"endTime":278.762,"body":"of Kanban before we flip our team."},{"startTime":278.772,"endTime":281.932,"body":"Like that, like the team, all the whole"},{"startTime":278.772,"endTime":281.932,"body":"team needs to know I've been on, I've"},{"startTime":281.932,"endTime":284.792,"body":"been on more than one 20 year career."},{"startTime":284.832,"endTime":288.482,"body":"I've been on count on one hand, the"},{"startTime":284.832,"endTime":288.482,"body":"number of teams that use Kanban that"},{"startTime":288.512,"endTime":292.512,"body":"actually used it well, they actually use"},{"startTime":288.512,"endTime":292.512,"body":"it properly with WIP limits and they had."},{"startTime":292.827,"endTime":297.147,"body":"Up on demand pull events that they"},{"startTime":292.827,"endTime":297.147,"body":"actually had the discipline to do."},{"startTime":297.297,"endTime":301.717,"body":"I've been on a lot of teams that"},{"startTime":297.297,"endTime":301.717,"body":"claimed to use Kanban, but for the"},{"startTime":301.717,"endTime":302.697,"body":"purpose of what we're talking about."},{"startTime":302.847,"endTime":309.487,"body":"There's a fair bit of knowledge that"},{"startTime":302.847,"endTime":309.487,"body":"the team has to come into to understand"},{"startTime":309.657,"endTime":313.807,"body":"before I would feel comfortable for"},{"startTime":309.657,"endTime":313.807,"body":"my team committing to using Kanban."},{"startTime":314.147,"endTime":316.637,"body":"So let's maybe walk through some"},{"startTime":314.147,"endTime":316.637,"body":"of those pieces of knowledge."},{"startTime":316.637,"endTime":320.077,"body":"There's two things that I would"},{"startTime":316.637,"endTime":320.077,"body":"bring up immediately to make sure"},{"startTime":320.077,"endTime":321.007,"body":"that we're on the same page with."},{"startTime":321.007,"endTime":322.857,"body":"Number one would be the"},{"startTime":321.007,"endTime":322.857,"body":"understanding of flow."},{"startTime":323.147,"endTime":327.087,"body":"The other one would be the"},{"startTime":323.147,"endTime":327.087,"body":"philosophy of pull, not push."},{"startTime":327.088,"endTime":330.968,"body":"before we even get into metrics, I want to"},{"startTime":327.088,"endTime":330.968,"body":"make sure that everyone has a rock solid"},{"startTime":330.968,"endTime":332.548,"body":"understanding of those first two things."},{"startTime":332.558,"endTime":335.347,"body":"Because if they don't,"},{"startTime":332.558,"endTime":335.347,"body":"You're off to a non starter."},{"startTime":335.348,"endTime":336.818,"body":"I agree with that wholeheartedly."},{"startTime":336.818,"endTime":337.127,"body":"I just."},{"startTime":337.468,"endTime":340.178,"body":"Don't know if it's that sequence"},{"startTime":337.468,"endTime":340.178,"body":"necessarily, you really have to"},{"startTime":340.178,"endTime":344.248,"body":"understand the pool philosophy and then"},{"startTime":340.178,"endTime":344.248,"body":"you can get into the flow aspect of it."},{"startTime":344.248,"endTime":344.508,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":344.658,"endTime":349.398,"body":"Even though scrum is also a pull system,"},{"startTime":344.658,"endTime":349.398,"body":"it should be, when done well, there's a"},{"startTime":349.398,"endTime":352.578,"body":"lot of people that I even told stories"},{"startTime":349.398,"endTime":352.578,"body":"on the podcast, like earlier in my"},{"startTime":352.578,"endTime":356.378,"body":"career, like when I was first introduced"},{"startTime":352.578,"endTime":356.378,"body":"to scrum is that the management would"},{"startTime":356.388,"endTime":359.028,"body":"bring you all the items and say, you"},{"startTime":356.388,"endTime":359.028,"body":"have to get these done in the sprint."},{"startTime":359.088,"endTime":361.278,"body":"They'll even assign them to"},{"startTime":359.088,"endTime":361.278,"body":"Yeah, lots of teams like that."},{"startTime":361.298,"endTime":361.728,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":361.788,"endTime":362.898,"body":"You know, I understand."},{"startTime":363.148,"endTime":369.158,"body":"But I guess you come on teams could"},{"startTime":363.148,"endTime":369.158,"body":"fall into the same trap, but I mean, I"},{"startTime":369.158,"endTime":372.608,"body":"think they'd be way more dysfunctional"},{"startTime":369.158,"endTime":372.608,"body":"falling because I mean, at least there's"},{"startTime":372.608,"endTime":374.078,"body":"some checks and balances with scrum."},{"startTime":374.188,"endTime":374.648,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":374.778,"endTime":375.668,"body":"Yes, exactly."},{"startTime":375.818,"endTime":380.018,"body":"Kanban is actually easier to"},{"startTime":375.818,"endTime":380.018,"body":"understand conceptually and easier"},{"startTime":380.018,"endTime":384.748,"body":"to explain even to a certain degree,"},{"startTime":380.018,"endTime":384.748,"body":"but it's harder to practice than"},{"startTime":384.748,"endTime":388.598,"body":"scrum because scrum has pretty much"},{"startTime":384.748,"endTime":388.598,"body":"everything laid out by the scrum guide."},{"startTime":388.828,"endTime":391.768,"body":"Now there is such a thing as the"},{"startTime":388.828,"endTime":391.768,"body":"Kanban guide, first of all, right."},{"startTime":391.918,"endTime":394.938,"body":"But  it's not like scrum where you're"},{"startTime":391.918,"endTime":394.938,"body":"told these are the events, these"},{"startTime":394.938,"endTime":396.308,"body":"are the accountabilities, et cetera."},{"startTime":396.638,"endTime":399.038,"body":"The team has to do all of those things."},{"startTime":399.343,"endTime":403.433,"body":"And if they don't, to your point,"},{"startTime":399.343,"endTime":403.433,"body":"right, you're not really doing combine"},{"startTime":403.433,"endTime":405.133,"body":"well because you're taking shortcuts."},{"startTime":405.333,"endTime":407.953,"body":"So education is absolutely key."},{"startTime":408.103,"endTime":411.743,"body":"Get everybody together and give"},{"startTime":408.103,"endTime":411.743,"body":"them the knowledge they need"},{"startTime":411.893,"endTime":416.083,"body":"to at least Set up their Kanban"},{"startTime":411.893,"endTime":416.083,"body":"structure to be successful, right?"},{"startTime":416.403,"endTime":418.233,"body":"Otherwise you're setting"},{"startTime":416.403,"endTime":418.233,"body":"them up for failure, really."},{"startTime":418.363,"endTime":418.633,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":418.633,"endTime":422.843,"body":"So I brought you in as my consultant here,"},{"startTime":418.633,"endTime":422.843,"body":"like you're going to help make sure that"},{"startTime":422.843,"endTime":427.033,"body":"my team comes up to a certain level of"},{"startTime":422.843,"endTime":427.033,"body":"knowledge and understanding about Kanban."},{"startTime":427.183,"endTime":430.423,"body":"What it is, how, how it works,"},{"startTime":427.183,"endTime":430.423,"body":"what the practices and concepts"},{"startTime":430.423,"endTime":431.743,"body":"are like, where would you start?"},{"startTime":431.893,"endTime":434.673,"body":"Yeah, I would, first of all, like I"},{"startTime":431.893,"endTime":434.673,"body":"said, I would get everybody together"},{"startTime":434.703,"endTime":438.173,"body":"that is going to be on this Kanban"},{"startTime":434.703,"endTime":438.173,"body":"team and explain to them the reason why"},{"startTime":438.173,"endTime":442.303,"body":"we're doing Kanban or we're about to"},{"startTime":438.173,"endTime":442.303,"body":"embrace Kanban so that they have a solid"},{"startTime":442.303,"endTime":444.053,"body":"understanding of the difference, right."},{"startTime":444.093,"endTime":447.723,"body":"Coming over from scrum assuming there,"},{"startTime":444.093,"endTime":447.723,"body":"but even if they're not, why Kanban?"},{"startTime":447.873,"endTime":451.943,"body":"So once they understand, because the"},{"startTime":447.873,"endTime":451.943,"body":"nature of that input funnel is sporadic."},{"startTime":452.093,"endTime":452.973,"body":"And the other thing is."},{"startTime":453.123,"endTime":458.413,"body":"Not having all of those defined"},{"startTime":453.123,"endTime":458.413,"body":"processes in place, but still having"},{"startTime":458.413,"endTime":460.273,"body":"to perform those things, right?"},{"startTime":460.423,"endTime":463.573,"body":"And not having a role that pretty"},{"startTime":460.423,"endTime":463.573,"body":"much orchestrates any of that,"},{"startTime":463.593,"endTime":465.373,"body":"like a scrum master does in scrum."},{"startTime":465.523,"endTime":468.023,"body":"So I would make sure that"},{"startTime":465.523,"endTime":468.023,"body":"people understand what are the"},{"startTime":468.023,"endTime":469.763,"body":"philosophies behind Kanban."},{"startTime":469.763,"endTime":475.083,"body":"Kanban is basically a Japanese word"},{"startTime":469.763,"endTime":475.083,"body":"that means visualizing a flow of some"},{"startTime":475.083,"endTime":479.333,"body":"kind, keeping track of work that you're"},{"startTime":475.083,"endTime":479.333,"body":"tracking as it moves through the system."},{"startTime":479.673,"endTime":484.223,"body":"So it comes in and It goes through a"},{"startTime":479.673,"endTime":484.223,"body":"series of steps and it gets to done and"},{"startTime":484.223,"endTime":488.213,"body":"you should be able to see where that"},{"startTime":484.223,"endTime":488.213,"body":"piece of work is at any point in time."},{"startTime":488.363,"endTime":490.633,"body":"That in a nutshell is what Kanban is."},{"startTime":490.953,"endTime":493.483,"body":"And it goes back to the people"},{"startTime":490.953,"endTime":493.483,"body":"can look up the history."},{"startTime":493.483,"endTime":495.583,"body":"We're probably not going to"},{"startTime":493.483,"endTime":495.583,"body":"delve into it here, but it goes"},{"startTime":495.583,"endTime":498.383,"body":"back to the manufacturing days"},{"startTime":495.583,"endTime":498.383,"body":"where you could see things."},{"startTime":498.448,"endTime":503.738,"body":"That were delivered through a process in"},{"startTime":498.448,"endTime":503.738,"body":"manufacturing where a card was accompanied"},{"startTime":504.028,"endTime":506.148,"body":"with the item in the process in the flow."},{"startTime":506.378,"endTime":509.018,"body":"So you could see where"},{"startTime":506.378,"endTime":509.018,"body":"things were, things were at."},{"startTime":509.168,"endTime":513.078,"body":"And all of that basically is what"},{"startTime":509.168,"endTime":513.078,"body":"led to what later became known"},{"startTime":513.078,"endTime":514.878,"body":"as just in time manufacturing."},{"startTime":515.048,"endTime":519.863,"body":"So Kanban is a system of"},{"startTime":515.048,"endTime":519.863,"body":"visualizing flow and seeing"},{"startTime":519.863,"endTime":521.693,"body":"where your work is in a nutshell."},{"startTime":521.733,"endTime":525.643,"body":"Kanban focuses on the management"},{"startTime":521.733,"endTime":525.643,"body":"of the flow of the work, It's an"},{"startTime":525.653,"endTime":529.083,"body":"ongoing thing because the flow"},{"startTime":525.653,"endTime":529.083,"body":"goes on essentially forever."},{"startTime":529.083,"endTime":530.773,"body":"As long as that stream is flowing, right?"},{"startTime":530.773,"endTime":533.163,"body":"The flow is happening, the"},{"startTime":530.773,"endTime":533.163,"body":"value stream, it applies to"},{"startTime":533.163,"endTime":534.533,"body":"the entire production process."},{"startTime":534.683,"endTime":535.703,"body":"Like start to finish."},{"startTime":535.853,"endTime":537.353,"body":"So it's just like scrum."},{"startTime":537.353,"endTime":539.453,"body":"If you're coming in and"},{"startTime":537.353,"endTime":539.453,"body":"applying it like in the middle."},{"startTime":539.603,"endTime":540.673,"body":"what is the goal?"},{"startTime":540.823,"endTime":544.953,"body":"it optimized efficiency of the"},{"startTime":540.823,"endTime":544.953,"body":"overall production process, reduced"},{"startTime":544.953,"endTime":549.073,"body":"waste, Kanban is centered in lean,"},{"startTime":544.953,"endTime":549.073,"body":"so it definitely reduced waste."},{"startTime":549.223,"endTime":550.623,"body":"It's definitely increased efficiency."},{"startTime":550.773,"endTime":554.593,"body":"Efficiency which is kind of like a"},{"startTime":550.773,"endTime":554.593,"body":"play on the, on the process side of it."},{"startTime":554.593,"endTime":554.873,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":555.183,"endTime":558.663,"body":"But as far as what you're delivering to"},{"startTime":555.183,"endTime":558.663,"body":"your stakeholders, it's also increasing"},{"startTime":558.663,"endTime":563.463,"body":"effectiveness because with, with scrum,"},{"startTime":558.663,"endTime":563.463,"body":"they don't see anything until they"},{"startTime":563.463,"endTime":565.073,"body":"come to the sprint review typically."},{"startTime":565.223,"endTime":565.563,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":565.713,"endTime":569.653,"body":"Most teams will do a sprint review"},{"startTime":565.713,"endTime":569.653,"body":"at the end of a sprint or whatever,"},{"startTime":569.943,"endTime":573.073,"body":"a fixed time point within the"},{"startTime":569.943,"endTime":573.073,"body":"duration of your sprint, right?"},{"startTime":573.223,"endTime":576.033,"body":"Kanban on the other hand, when"},{"startTime":573.223,"endTime":576.033,"body":"done well, it just basically"},{"startTime":576.033,"endTime":577.603,"body":"says, Hey, look, we finished this."},{"startTime":577.753,"endTime":582.913,"body":"Come see it and it's ad hoc, but then they"},{"startTime":577.753,"endTime":582.913,"body":"have to be also recipient of the idea that"},{"startTime":583.223,"endTime":587.503,"body":"They'll just be pinged and they can show"},{"startTime":583.223,"endTime":587.503,"body":"up and see that at any point At any point"},{"startTime":587.513,"endTime":588.953,"body":"period because you don't have a sprint."},{"startTime":589.013,"endTime":591.263,"body":"So at any point and a lot"},{"startTime":589.013,"endTime":591.263,"body":"of teams struggle with that."},{"startTime":591.463,"endTime":595.693,"body":"A lot of teams are used to just piling"},{"startTime":591.463,"endTime":595.693,"body":"things up and then going up and going in"},{"startTime":595.693,"endTime":597.803,"body":"front of stakeholders to get feedback."},{"startTime":598.083,"endTime":602.363,"body":"What combine lets you do is on a given"},{"startTime":598.083,"endTime":602.363,"body":"item, get feedback as soon as it is"},{"startTime":602.363,"endTime":606.913,"body":"needed, which is when you, when the team"},{"startTime":602.363,"endTime":606.913,"body":"is done or done good enough, 80 percent"},{"startTime":606.913,"endTime":610.243,"body":"done, whatever, just, Show it to the"},{"startTime":606.913,"endTime":610.243,"body":"stakeholders and say, what do you think?"},{"startTime":610.393,"endTime":610.633,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":610.633,"endTime":613.173,"body":"So there's some key"},{"startTime":610.633,"endTime":613.173,"body":"differences that I'm hearing."},{"startTime":613.243,"endTime":614.553,"body":"So in the scrum team."},{"startTime":614.653,"endTime":615.613,"body":"forget about planning for a second."},{"startTime":615.713,"endTime":618.703,"body":"let's start with where we're already"},{"startTime":615.713,"endTime":618.703,"body":"at, which is the sprint review."},{"startTime":618.853,"endTime":621.903,"body":"So in a scrum team, you have a"},{"startTime":618.853,"endTime":621.903,"body":"time box and the time box, it's"},{"startTime":621.903,"endTime":625.703,"body":"wrapped where the very start of the"},{"startTime":621.903,"endTime":625.703,"body":"time box, you've got some planning"},{"startTime":625.703,"endTime":629.183,"body":"activities and at the end of the time"},{"startTime":625.703,"endTime":629.183,"body":"box, you've got some demonstration"},{"startTime":629.203,"endTime":631.163,"body":"type sprint review activities,"},{"startTime":631.213,"endTime":631.443,"body":"So."},{"startTime":631.593,"endTime":635.523,"body":"In Kanban, these are"},{"startTime":631.593,"endTime":635.523,"body":"they're not in a time box."},{"startTime":635.673,"endTime":640.993,"body":"They're as necessary ad hoc along"},{"startTime":635.673,"endTime":640.993,"body":"the way as value is delivered."},{"startTime":641.223,"endTime":645.213,"body":"So I want to highlight that because,"},{"startTime":641.223,"endTime":645.213,"body":"oh boy, it's not just the team"},{"startTime":645.223,"endTime":646.943,"body":"doing stuff that needs discipline."},{"startTime":647.033,"endTime":647.533,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":647.603,"endTime":651.703,"body":"It's the whole organization that needs"},{"startTime":647.603,"endTime":651.703,"body":"to know that work is flowing and is at a"},{"startTime":651.703,"endTime":653.783,"body":"point where it demands a demonstration."},{"startTime":653.793,"endTime":654.893,"body":"It demands feedback."},{"startTime":654.893,"endTime":658.723,"body":"Basically, I have to stop what I'm"},{"startTime":654.893,"endTime":658.723,"body":"doing because my providing feedback to"},{"startTime":658.723,"endTime":662.423,"body":"what's coming out of the pipeline is"},{"startTime":658.723,"endTime":662.423,"body":"critical to happen as the work is ready."},{"startTime":662.573,"endTime":664.333,"body":"Otherwise I'm going to impede that team."},{"startTime":664.343,"endTime":666.883,"body":"Even though like normal people"},{"startTime":664.343,"endTime":666.883,"body":"might hear that and be like, well,"},{"startTime":666.883,"endTime":667.913,"body":"I'm not even part of that team."},{"startTime":667.913,"endTime":668.843,"body":"I'm just helping them out."},{"startTime":668.863,"endTime":670.493,"body":"I'm just doing them a favor or whatever."},{"startTime":670.503,"endTime":674.473,"body":"It's like not considering the whole"},{"startTime":670.503,"endTime":674.473,"body":"system when you're dealing with team."},{"startTime":674.528,"endTime":678.298,"body":"So I'm, I'm hearing this and I'm"},{"startTime":674.528,"endTime":678.298,"body":"also a little concerned because"},{"startTime":678.298,"endTime":680.988,"body":"now it sounds like, well, how"},{"startTime":678.298,"endTime":680.988,"body":"are you going to have discipline?"},{"startTime":681.138,"endTime":684.018,"body":"Across all the teams interact with"},{"startTime":681.138,"endTime":684.018,"body":"each other and the stakeholders"},{"startTime":684.018,"endTime":686.558,"body":"in them it's, I could easily"},{"startTime":684.018,"endTime":686.558,"body":"see why this could break down."},{"startTime":686.708,"endTime":690.778,"body":"It really requires some astute uh,"},{"startTime":686.708,"endTime":690.778,"body":"facilitation because you're right"},{"startTime":690.788,"endTime":692.318,"body":"from the perspective of stakeholder."},{"startTime":692.468,"endTime":695.498,"body":"You just attended a demo today and then"},{"startTime":692.468,"endTime":695.498,"body":"tomorrow somebody is going to ping you"},{"startTime":695.498,"endTime":697.348,"body":"and say, Hey, look, can you come see this?"},{"startTime":697.498,"endTime":699.078,"body":"Philosophically, you're right."},{"startTime":699.098,"endTime":702.518,"body":"The organization has to be ready to"},{"startTime":699.098,"endTime":702.518,"body":"embrace Kanban for it to be done."},{"startTime":702.718,"endTime":705.988,"body":"so you're educating the team , the"},{"startTime":702.718,"endTime":705.988,"body":"team has to learn but then The"},{"startTime":706.058,"endTime":710.138,"body":"management and the other teams may"},{"startTime":706.058,"endTime":710.138,"body":"be staying on their sprint cadences."},{"startTime":710.288,"endTime":712.898,"body":"It might be one team separating"},{"startTime":710.288,"endTime":712.898,"body":"from the herd and doing their own"},{"startTime":712.898,"endTime":718.098,"body":"thing or it might be a team that"},{"startTime":712.898,"endTime":718.098,"body":"is very appropriately doing Kanban."},{"startTime":718.118,"endTime":722.668,"body":"Like I think of every leadership team"},{"startTime":718.118,"endTime":722.668,"body":"I've ever seen or every program level"},{"startTime":722.738,"endTime":726.268,"body":"type of service level, those guys"},{"startTime":722.738,"endTime":726.268,"body":"can't do scrum, even if they wanted to,"},{"startTime":726.308,"endTime":727.738,"body":"they're basically only doing Kanban."},{"startTime":727.738,"endTime":730.888,"body":"They're working on whatever the latest"},{"startTime":727.738,"endTime":730.888,"body":"thing is, or maybe they have a fire"},{"startTime":730.888,"endTime":733.368,"body":"lane and they're only working on like"},{"startTime":730.888,"endTime":733.368,"body":"a lot of executives just work on fire."},{"startTime":733.518,"endTime":734.798,"body":"They don't do any planning for the future."},{"startTime":734.798,"endTime":736.268,"body":"They just work on whatever"},{"startTime":734.798,"endTime":736.268,"body":"the fire is today."},{"startTime":736.268,"endTime":737.458,"body":"And the organization is okay with that."},{"startTime":737.608,"endTime":740.958,"body":"I mean, are they doing Kanban with"},{"startTime":737.608,"endTime":740.958,"body":"that, with the firefighting lane?"},{"startTime":740.968,"endTime":743.588,"body":"I mean, if you boil the whole thing"},{"startTime":740.968,"endTime":743.588,"body":"down to like to do doing done, I"},{"startTime":743.588,"endTime":746.568,"body":"mean, they kind of are, they're only"},{"startTime":743.588,"endTime":746.568,"body":"ever have one thing in progress."},{"startTime":746.578,"endTime":749.188,"body":"You know, they, even though they'll say"},{"startTime":746.578,"endTime":749.188,"body":"they're working on a million things."},{"startTime":749.338,"endTime":754.298,"body":"So there's a lot that goes around the"},{"startTime":749.338,"endTime":754.298,"body":"subject of working in Kanban beyond"},{"startTime":754.298,"endTime":759.228,"body":"just the three columns of And uh,"},{"startTime":754.298,"endTime":759.228,"body":"as far as leadership's concerned,"},{"startTime":759.228,"endTime":760.658,"body":"my experience has been mixed."},{"startTime":760.878,"endTime":763.498,"body":"in other words, I've worked with"},{"startTime":760.878,"endTime":763.498,"body":"some leaders that really are very"},{"startTime":763.498,"endTime":766.618,"body":"good about moving their work items on"},{"startTime":763.498,"endTime":766.618,"body":"their leadership Kanban board along."},{"startTime":766.768,"endTime":768.508,"body":"I've worked with others"},{"startTime":766.768,"endTime":768.508,"body":"every time we meet."},{"startTime":768.658,"endTime":772.608,"body":"It's their cards are in the same columns"},{"startTime":768.658,"endTime":772.608,"body":"because they have other things they're"},{"startTime":772.608,"endTime":774.518,"body":"working on that are more important, right?"},{"startTime":774.858,"endTime":777.438,"body":"So it just depends I think overall"},{"startTime":777.528,"endTime":781.148,"body":"so who like you're introducing this"},{"startTime":777.528,"endTime":781.148,"body":"process of the team Maybe we can get"},{"startTime":781.148,"endTime":785.098,"body":"somebody from outside to come in train"},{"startTime":781.148,"endTime":785.098,"body":"the team help them out Shepherd them"},{"startTime":785.098,"endTime":789.018,"body":"through the transition or whatever,"},{"startTime":785.098,"endTime":789.018,"body":"but after that, I mean, this is a real"},{"startTime":789.018,"endTime":792.428,"body":"leader's position in the organization to"},{"startTime":789.018,"endTime":792.428,"body":"kind of be going around the organization"},{"startTime":792.578,"endTime":796.878,"body":"saying, Hey, we we need you for the"},{"startTime":792.578,"endTime":796.878,"body":"spirit reviews we have the consistently"},{"startTime":796.898,"endTime":798.248,"body":"make us wait, stuff like that."},{"startTime":798.258,"endTime":800.228,"body":"You know, this is not"},{"startTime":798.258,"endTime":800.228,"body":"really working together."},{"startTime":800.388,"endTime":801.638,"body":"This is not enabling flow."},{"startTime":801.638,"endTime":803.688,"body":"you kind of need somebody running around."},{"startTime":803.838,"endTime":807.808,"body":"Keeping things on track if you're"},{"startTime":803.838,"endTime":807.808,"body":"committed to using kanban the"},{"startTime":807.808,"endTime":811.048,"body":"nice thing about scrum Is at least"},{"startTime":807.808,"endTime":811.048,"body":"you get the end of the time box."},{"startTime":811.228,"endTime":814.748,"body":"So at least everyone's day is ending"},{"startTime":811.228,"endTime":814.748,"body":"on the same, theoretically, everyone's"},{"startTime":814.858,"endTime":816.718,"body":"ending, ending on the same day."},{"startTime":816.888,"endTime":819.428,"body":"So at least there's going to be"},{"startTime":816.888,"endTime":819.428,"body":"reviews and stuff on that day."},{"startTime":819.528,"endTime":819.758,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":819.758,"endTime":823.568,"body":"It's that, that nature of predictability"},{"startTime":819.758,"endTime":823.568,"body":"that most people have issues with"},{"startTime":823.568,"endTime":826.658,"body":"when, when you talk about Kanban,"},{"startTime":823.568,"endTime":826.658,"body":"but you know, I think if you look"},{"startTime":826.668,"endTime":829.938,"body":"at, if you look at teams that are"},{"startTime":826.668,"endTime":829.938,"body":"doing scrum and then other teams that"},{"startTime":829.938,"endTime":833.598,"body":"are working with them that are doing"},{"startTime":829.938,"endTime":833.598,"body":"Kanban, you'll find most Kanban teams."},{"startTime":833.648,"endTime":836.628,"body":"Save their reviews up until scrum"},{"startTime":833.648,"endTime":836.628,"body":"teams are doing their reviews."},{"startTime":836.778,"endTime":840.368,"body":"Which, okay, but really,"},{"startTime":836.778,"endTime":840.368,"body":"why do Kanban then?"},{"startTime":840.428,"endTime":841.138,"body":"Cause you're waiting."},{"startTime":841.358,"endTime":843.358,"body":"There's the idea of eliminating waste."},{"startTime":843.358,"endTime":845.828,"body":"Well, you've added waste"},{"startTime":843.358,"endTime":845.828,"body":"delays, a waste, right?"},{"startTime":845.848,"endTime":847.918,"body":"So you've added delay at that point."},{"startTime":848.228,"endTime":850.318,"body":"So I think it depends to what degree."},{"startTime":850.523,"endTime":855.333,"body":"You're diligent about practicing Kanban"},{"startTime":850.523,"endTime":855.333,"body":"and yes, there's no scrum master."},{"startTime":855.663,"endTime":857.213,"body":"So who is that person?"},{"startTime":857.253,"endTime":860.453,"body":"Even if they rotate the role"},{"startTime":857.253,"endTime":860.453,"body":"the term flow master has been"},{"startTime":860.453,"endTime":861.973,"body":"thrown around as well, right?"},{"startTime":862.303,"endTime":866.443,"body":"But my favorite thing to do is to"},{"startTime":862.303,"endTime":866.443,"body":"just show the teams what needs to be"},{"startTime":866.443,"endTime":871.223,"body":"done and then have them learn from"},{"startTime":866.443,"endTime":871.223,"body":"the person who signs up first and"},{"startTime":871.223,"endTime":873.943,"body":"the person who signs up next, I mean,"},{"startTime":871.223,"endTime":873.943,"body":"they can do it any number of different"},{"startTime":873.943,"endTime":875.883,"body":"ways they can rotate the role weekly."},{"startTime":876.033,"endTime":879.573,"body":"Monthly, however they want to every"},{"startTime":876.033,"endTime":879.573,"body":"10 items that are pulled through"},{"startTime":879.573,"endTime":883.953,"body":"the system doesn't matter as long"},{"startTime":879.573,"endTime":883.953,"body":"as they learn how to do this, right?"},{"startTime":884.103,"endTime":887.643,"body":"And that's where the role of a coach"},{"startTime":884.103,"endTime":887.643,"body":"comes in, coming in to enable the team."},{"startTime":887.793,"endTime":889.783,"body":"So we started with knowledge"},{"startTime":887.793,"endTime":889.783,"body":"transfer and enabling."},{"startTime":889.933,"endTime":893.643,"body":"The next thing I think, if we're moving"},{"startTime":889.933,"endTime":893.643,"body":"to that, is the tooling of it, right?"},{"startTime":893.863,"endTime":894.783,"body":"How do you do that?"},{"startTime":894.933,"endTime":897.683,"body":"And it's not that different than,"},{"startTime":894.933,"endTime":897.683,"body":"really, working in a sprint."},{"startTime":897.693,"endTime":900.023,"body":"You have a board, you"},{"startTime":897.693,"endTime":900.023,"body":"have a backlog, right?"},{"startTime":900.183,"endTime":904.953,"body":"So as far as those things go, it's pretty"},{"startTime":900.183,"endTime":904.953,"body":"similar, but then it deviates from there."},{"startTime":905.103,"endTime":909.563,"body":"Just like you do in scrum, where"},{"startTime":905.103,"endTime":909.563,"body":"items start new to the left, and"},{"startTime":909.563,"endTime":912.923,"body":"they go through various stages of"},{"startTime":909.563,"endTime":912.923,"body":"progression or towards the right, and"},{"startTime":912.923,"endTime":914.373,"body":"they go to die in the done column."},{"startTime":914.373,"endTime":918.103,"body":"Kanban has a similar kind of a board."},{"startTime":918.253,"endTime":923.493,"body":"The differences come in once you"},{"startTime":918.253,"endTime":923.493,"body":"start using the system to reflect what"},{"startTime":923.643,"endTime":925.373,"body":"states you need to measure, right?"},{"startTime":925.653,"endTime":930.223,"body":"And a lot of times teams in scrum"},{"startTime":925.653,"endTime":930.223,"body":"or Kanban are really limited to"},{"startTime":930.373,"endTime":931.783,"body":"whatever their LM tools offer."},{"startTime":931.933,"endTime":936.853,"body":"So if your ALM tools just says"},{"startTime":931.933,"endTime":936.853,"body":"new, in progress, QA maybe, or"},{"startTime":936.853,"endTime":940.153,"body":"ready, whatever it is and done,"},{"startTime":936.853,"endTime":940.153,"body":"that's what you're stuck with."},{"startTime":940.433,"endTime":943.193,"body":"But are those the right states to measure?"},{"startTime":943.343,"endTime":944.923,"body":"And that's important in Kanban."},{"startTime":945.103,"endTime":947.983,"body":"it's important in Scrum too, but a"},{"startTime":945.103,"endTime":947.983,"body":"lot of people ignore that importance."},{"startTime":948.223,"endTime":950.133,"body":"In Kanban, because you need to figure out."},{"startTime":950.453,"endTime":953.153,"body":"How long an item is"},{"startTime":950.453,"endTime":953.153,"body":"spending in a state, right?"},{"startTime":953.303,"endTime":956.463,"body":"This is a core concept of flow here, in"},{"startTime":953.303,"endTime":956.463,"body":"the example I was pointing out, where"},{"startTime":956.463,"endTime":960.083,"body":"we're having trouble getting the other"},{"startTime":956.463,"endTime":960.083,"body":"teams to understand that when things"},{"startTime":960.083,"endTime":964.143,"body":"are ready for the demo, they're kind"},{"startTime":960.083,"endTime":964.143,"body":"of sitting and they're in this delay."},{"startTime":964.293,"endTime":966.163,"body":"So we're counting."},{"startTime":966.393,"endTime":969.423,"body":"Maybe there's a step on our board"},{"startTime":966.393,"endTime":969.423,"body":"that says needs to be demoed."},{"startTime":969.573,"endTime":972.383,"body":"basically finish your development"},{"startTime":969.573,"endTime":972.383,"body":"and it needs to be demo, demo ready"},{"startTime":972.383,"endTime":973.593,"body":"feedback ready, something like that."},{"startTime":973.743,"endTime":976.143,"body":"And now we're counting the delay and"},{"startTime":976.203,"endTime":978.663,"body":"We do some of our flow metrics"},{"startTime":976.203,"endTime":978.663,"body":"at the end of a, whatever"},{"startTime":978.663,"endTime":979.923,"body":"period of time we feel like."},{"startTime":980.183,"endTime":983.743,"body":"And we say oh boy, it looks"},{"startTime":980.183,"endTime":983.743,"body":"like in a normal cycle for us."},{"startTime":983.893,"endTime":988.423,"body":"the biggest delay in our stuff getting"},{"startTime":983.893,"endTime":988.423,"body":"to done is this step where we're waiting"},{"startTime":988.423,"endTime":990.303,"body":"on other people so how do we solve that?"},{"startTime":990.323,"endTime":992.543,"body":"You know, now we're talking about the"},{"startTime":990.323,"endTime":992.543,"body":"stuff that's actually the bottlenecks,"},{"startTime":992.573,"endTime":996.143,"body":"the actual real bottlenecks,"},{"startTime":992.573,"endTime":996.143,"body":"that's the crux of doing sometimes,"},{"startTime":996.383,"endTime":999.313,"body":"sometimes in scrum, these things"},{"startTime":996.383,"endTime":999.313,"body":"just don't even get talked about."},{"startTime":999.523,"endTime":1002.033,"body":"They don't you get into"},{"startTime":999.523,"endTime":1002.033,"body":"a ritual in scrum, right?"},{"startTime":1002.043,"endTime":1002.513,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1002.513,"endTime":1002.943,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1003.033,"endTime":1003.343,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1003.393,"endTime":1003.763,"body":"exactly."},{"startTime":1003.923,"endTime":1006.403,"body":"They're just the drapes like"},{"startTime":1003.923,"endTime":1006.403,"body":"they've always been there."},{"startTime":1006.413,"endTime":1006.973,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1007.053,"endTime":1008.073,"body":"Yeah, That's true."},{"startTime":1008.073,"endTime":1011.563,"body":"So identifying the sources of"},{"startTime":1008.073,"endTime":1011.563,"body":"these, of the where, where are"},{"startTime":1011.563,"endTime":1013.093,"body":"the delays is the first step."},{"startTime":1013.393,"endTime":1017.553,"body":"And then you can look at reducing these"},{"startTime":1013.393,"endTime":1017.553,"body":"delays with a view to eliminating them."},{"startTime":1017.703,"endTime":1022.433,"body":"If you do that every single time you"},{"startTime":1017.703,"endTime":1022.433,"body":"encounter a delay, you are smoothing,"},{"startTime":1022.473,"endTime":1024.423,"body":"smoothing, smoothing the flow."},{"startTime":1024.573,"endTime":1026.123,"body":"I know you're easing the flow."},{"startTime":1026.123,"endTime":1031.433,"body":"Let's put it that way through the system"},{"startTime":1026.123,"endTime":1031.433,"body":"and doing that is really key in Kanban,"},{"startTime":1031.583,"endTime":1032.763,"body":"which begs the question."},{"startTime":1032.773,"endTime":1034.343,"body":"How do you know how well you're doing?"},{"startTime":1034.493,"endTime":1035.563,"body":"All right, let's do these metrics."},{"startTime":1035.563,"endTime":1039.353,"body":"So I've got, I wrote down before"},{"startTime":1035.563,"endTime":1039.353,"body":"we started, I wrote down cycle"},{"startTime":1039.353,"endTime":1041.613,"body":"time, lead time, throughput."},{"startTime":1041.763,"endTime":1043.043,"body":"Those are the three things I wrote down."},{"startTime":1043.043,"endTime":1044.123,"body":"Cycle time, lead time, throughput."},{"startTime":1044.133,"endTime":1045.923,"body":"So Let's define what they are then."},{"startTime":1045.933,"endTime":1047.113,"body":"Yeah, let's define what they are."},{"startTime":1047.163,"endTime":1052.723,"body":"The cycle time is the entire end to"},{"startTime":1047.163,"endTime":1052.723,"body":"end of a work item through the system,"},{"startTime":1052.733,"endTime":1054.293,"body":"the lead time is the whole process."},{"startTime":1054.523,"endTime":1057.313,"body":"lead time is basically"},{"startTime":1054.523,"endTime":1057.313,"body":"when the item is born."},{"startTime":1057.593,"endTime":1060.723,"body":"So when you create an item as new"},{"startTime":1057.593,"endTime":1060.723,"body":"in your backlog, the clock starts"},{"startTime":1060.723,"endTime":1062.953,"body":"on the lead time until it is done"},{"startTime":1063.153,"endTime":1064.473,"body":"cycle time on the other hand."},{"startTime":1064.778,"endTime":1068.218,"body":"is when the item goes from"},{"startTime":1064.778,"endTime":1068.218,"body":"new to in progress or active."},{"startTime":1068.368,"endTime":1071.818,"body":"So that's when the team is actually"},{"startTime":1068.368,"endTime":1071.818,"body":"working on it or begins to work on it."},{"startTime":1071.968,"endTime":1075.008,"body":"So it's from there"},{"startTime":1071.968,"endTime":1075.008,"body":"onwards until it's done."},{"startTime":1075.158,"endTime":1077.288,"body":"So that's my definition,"},{"startTime":1075.158,"endTime":1077.288,"body":"a shorter timeframe."},{"startTime":1077.438,"endTime":1078.038,"body":"Those are the two."},{"startTime":1078.038,"endTime":1081.828,"body":"and those three variables that"},{"startTime":1078.038,"endTime":1081.828,"body":"you outlined earlier are related"},{"startTime":1081.828,"endTime":1083.328,"body":"to what's known as little's law."},{"startTime":1083.478,"endTime":1086.348,"body":"Which, which basically we want"},{"startTime":1083.478,"endTime":1086.348,"body":"to get all mathematical here,"},{"startTime":1086.358,"endTime":1088.518,"body":"but throughput is a function of."},{"startTime":1088.803,"endTime":1090.483,"body":"Your lead time and cycle time."},{"startTime":1090.633,"endTime":1094.743,"body":"So the smaller your cycle time,"},{"startTime":1090.633,"endTime":1094.743,"body":"the bigger your throughput, right?"},{"startTime":1094.793,"endTime":1095.563,"body":"It kind of makes sense."},{"startTime":1095.573,"endTime":1097.803,"body":"So you're getting through"},{"startTime":1095.573,"endTime":1097.803,"body":"from start to finish faster."},{"startTime":1097.953,"endTime":1102.033,"body":"As far as lead time goes, I found in"},{"startTime":1097.953,"endTime":1102.033,"body":"my experience, lead time is contextual."},{"startTime":1102.263,"endTime":1106.383,"body":"So in some cases, let's say, well,"},{"startTime":1102.263,"endTime":1106.383,"body":"I can talk about when I was working"},{"startTime":1106.383,"endTime":1110.383,"body":"at a large airline manufacturer"},{"startTime":1106.383,"endTime":1110.383,"body":"their lead times were huge."},{"startTime":1110.483,"endTime":1113.503,"body":"But it didn't matter, because"},{"startTime":1110.483,"endTime":1113.503,"body":"the backlog just sat there."},{"startTime":1113.773,"endTime":1117.083,"body":"It was a different issue that, are"},{"startTime":1113.773,"endTime":1117.083,"body":"those the right things still to work on"},{"startTime":1117.113,"endTime":1118.533,"body":"when you actually come to pick them up?"},{"startTime":1118.583,"endTime":1119.913,"body":"That's a different issue, right?"},{"startTime":1119.953,"endTime":1122.353,"body":"We talk about how stale"},{"startTime":1119.953,"endTime":1122.353,"body":"the backlog is, etc."},{"startTime":1122.503,"endTime":1125.703,"body":"But for the purpose of our discussion"},{"startTime":1122.503,"endTime":1125.703,"body":"today, it's the cycle time and the"},{"startTime":1125.733,"endTime":1127.363,"body":"throughput that are important, right?"},{"startTime":1127.403,"endTime":1128.003,"body":"Those two."},{"startTime":1128.153,"endTime":1132.653,"body":"And all of that is wrapped"},{"startTime":1128.153,"endTime":1132.653,"body":"around this other element,"},{"startTime":1132.783,"endTime":1134.633,"body":"which is called cumulative flow."},{"startTime":1134.973,"endTime":1139.523,"body":"Cumulative flow simply is in all of the"},{"startTime":1134.973,"endTime":1139.523,"body":"states that you have essentially all"},{"startTime":1139.523,"endTime":1141.073,"body":"the columns that you have on your board."},{"startTime":1141.223,"endTime":1143.313,"body":"You have all these work items together."},{"startTime":1143.323,"endTime":1147.323,"body":"How are they moving through the"},{"startTime":1143.323,"endTime":1147.323,"body":"system from start to finish?"},{"startTime":1147.473,"endTime":1150.693,"body":"And most ALM tools will"},{"startTime":1147.473,"endTime":1150.693,"body":"compute that for you."},{"startTime":1150.813,"endTime":1154.923,"body":"So you can see the what they call"},{"startTime":1150.813,"endTime":1154.923,"body":"a CFD cumulative flow diagram where"},{"startTime":1154.923,"endTime":1158.883,"body":"you can see where are the items"},{"startTime":1154.923,"endTime":1158.883,"body":"spending the longest time, right?"},{"startTime":1158.933,"endTime":1159.893,"body":"And that's the delay."},{"startTime":1160.043,"endTime":1163.153,"body":"So they're spending a long"},{"startTime":1160.043,"endTime":1163.153,"body":"time in, let's say QA."},{"startTime":1163.203,"endTime":1165.803,"body":"It might point to a"},{"startTime":1163.203,"endTime":1165.803,"body":"bottleneck somewhere, right?"},{"startTime":1165.863,"endTime":1171.213,"body":"which could be that your devs are getting"},{"startTime":1165.863,"endTime":1171.213,"body":"done quicker and QA is Constrained in"},{"startTime":1171.213,"endTime":1174.973,"body":"some way Yeah so you could start to"},{"startTime":1171.213,"endTime":1174.973,"body":"focus on that and get those bands the"},{"startTime":1174.983,"endTime":1179.203,"body":"time bands as narrow as you can in an"},{"startTime":1174.983,"endTime":1179.203,"body":"ideal state They would be about the"},{"startTime":1179.353,"endTime":1186.103,"body":"same Width over time and CFDs should not"},{"startTime":1179.353,"endTime":1186.103,"body":"be looked at on a short term measure."},{"startTime":1186.223,"endTime":1186.433,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1186.603,"endTime":1186.933,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1187.023,"endTime":1190.323,"body":"I almost said spring, but let's say"},{"startTime":1187.023,"endTime":1190.323,"body":"two weeks or a month, that's not"},{"startTime":1190.323,"endTime":1192.283,"body":"long enough for the data to settle."},{"startTime":1192.343,"endTime":1192.613,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1192.663,"endTime":1192.803,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1192.833,"endTime":1197.763,"body":"So rule of thumb there that I use"},{"startTime":1192.833,"endTime":1197.763,"body":"personally is 45 days to 60 days."},{"startTime":1197.763,"endTime":1198.223,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1198.293,"endTime":1199.033,"body":"Depending on the team."},{"startTime":1199.153,"endTime":1199.883,"body":"90 days is good."},{"startTime":1200.043,"endTime":1204.203,"body":"I very rarely look at cumulative"},{"startTime":1200.043,"endTime":1204.203,"body":"flow data because I'll use"},{"startTime":1204.203,"endTime":1207.123,"body":"that CFD diagram to spot big."},{"startTime":1207.273,"endTime":1211.023,"body":"Variations, and then I'll hone into"},{"startTime":1207.273,"endTime":1211.023,"body":"that step and look at why that step"},{"startTime":1211.023,"endTime":1214.023,"body":"is a little weird but it's like,"},{"startTime":1211.023,"endTime":1214.023,"body":"it's a very quick process for me."},{"startTime":1214.303,"endTime":1216.953,"body":"So we talked about creating the"},{"startTime":1214.303,"endTime":1216.953,"body":"initial Kanban board, whatever"},{"startTime":1216.953,"endTime":1217.803,"body":"steps you need in there, right?"},{"startTime":1217.803,"endTime":1220.573,"body":"We kind of talked about, maybe"},{"startTime":1217.803,"endTime":1220.573,"body":"you need a QA step, maybe you need"},{"startTime":1220.573,"endTime":1224.433,"body":"a ready for demonstration step,"},{"startTime":1220.573,"endTime":1224.433,"body":"maybe you need something else."},{"startTime":1224.583,"endTime":1227.023,"body":"the creation of that initial Kanban"},{"startTime":1224.583,"endTime":1227.023,"body":"board, you're going to do a little"},{"startTime":1227.023,"endTime":1231.713,"body":"bit of research, surveying analysis,"},{"startTime":1227.023,"endTime":1231.713,"body":"whatever you want to call it to figure"},{"startTime":1231.713,"endTime":1233.513,"body":"out what you need to put on that board."},{"startTime":1233.513,"endTime":1236.893,"body":"So there is some analysis about"},{"startTime":1233.513,"endTime":1236.893,"body":"the current workflow, right?"},{"startTime":1236.893,"endTime":1241.803,"body":"the ideal state  I remember once I,"},{"startTime":1236.893,"endTime":1241.803,"body":"I, I use a CFD to, to, to point for"},{"startTime":1241.803,"endTime":1245.013,"body":"the team that we needed more time in"},{"startTime":1241.803,"endTime":1245.013,"body":"planning because when we spent more"},{"startTime":1245.013,"endTime":1247.373,"body":"time in planning, the weeks we spent"},{"startTime":1245.013,"endTime":1247.373,"body":"more time planning, you would see the"},{"startTime":1247.373,"endTime":1250.693,"body":"CFD kind of open up with the amount"},{"startTime":1247.373,"endTime":1250.693,"body":"of work item that was ready for the"},{"startTime":1250.693,"endTime":1252.483,"body":"team versus running a real tight."},{"startTime":1252.803,"endTime":1256.903,"body":"You know, Hey, don't you guys want to"},{"startTime":1252.803,"endTime":1256.903,"body":"have not have to Go straight into planning"},{"startTime":1256.913,"endTime":1260.753,"body":"every time we end a sprint Now, if we"},{"startTime":1256.913,"endTime":1260.753,"body":"spend a little more time, we can have"},{"startTime":1260.753,"endTime":1264.493,"body":"stuff prepared so that you have a little"},{"startTime":1260.753,"endTime":1264.493,"body":"bandwidth between when a sprint ends and"},{"startTime":1264.493,"endTime":1265.813,"body":"when you have to go into deep planning."},{"startTime":1265.963,"endTime":1266.353,"body":"You know."},{"startTime":1266.463,"endTime":1269.823,"body":"That's a pretty good illustration"},{"startTime":1266.463,"endTime":1269.823,"body":"of how to use a CFD, really."},{"startTime":1269.833,"endTime":1271.773,"body":"It's trying to find What is the issue?"},{"startTime":1271.813,"endTime":1272.053,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1272.103,"endTime":1273.253,"body":"What is the symptom?"},{"startTime":1273.263,"endTime":1274.183,"body":"First of all, right?"},{"startTime":1274.233,"endTime":1278.083,"body":"And then finding out what is the issue and"},{"startTime":1274.233,"endTime":1278.083,"body":"then remediating it and confirming over"},{"startTime":1278.083,"endTime":1282.603,"body":"time that actually it did get remediated"},{"startTime":1278.083,"endTime":1282.603,"body":"that team, by the way, their issue that"},{"startTime":1282.753,"endTime":1286.543,"body":"prompted me to look into that their issue"},{"startTime":1282.753,"endTime":1286.543,"body":"was they were using their sprint plannings"},{"startTime":1286.723,"endTime":1288.893,"body":"as backlog refinements a lot of the time."},{"startTime":1289.043,"endTime":1290.713,"body":"Yeah, not enough readiness."},{"startTime":1290.853,"endTime":1291.533,"body":"Easy fix."},{"startTime":1291.563,"endTime":1294.363,"body":"But I mean, it was just to them"},{"startTime":1291.563,"endTime":1294.363,"body":"because they were in that time box."},{"startTime":1294.363,"endTime":1295.383,"body":"They were going sprint to sprint."},{"startTime":1295.403,"endTime":1297.693,"body":"They weren't focused on they were"},{"startTime":1295.403,"endTime":1297.693,"body":"one of these scenes where they were"},{"startTime":1297.693,"endTime":1299.303,"body":"saying, we're too busy to improve."},{"startTime":1299.453,"endTime":1302.803,"body":"We're too busy to stop and have"},{"startTime":1299.453,"endTime":1302.803,"body":"a retro, you know it was, Hey,"},{"startTime":1302.813,"endTime":1303.833,"body":"we'll look at this diagram."},{"startTime":1303.833,"endTime":1304.923,"body":"I mean, that's, that's your data."},{"startTime":1304.923,"endTime":1306.943,"body":"That's not a, anyone's opinion, right?"},{"startTime":1306.953,"endTime":1307.913,"body":"It's all data."},{"startTime":1308.233,"endTime":1311.683,"body":"I would say at this point, even"},{"startTime":1308.233,"endTime":1311.683,"body":"though this is a Kanban podcast,"},{"startTime":1311.833,"endTime":1313.693,"body":"some of the flow metrics are."},{"startTime":1313.933,"endTime":1316.963,"body":"Probably all of them are pretty"},{"startTime":1313.933,"endTime":1316.963,"body":"useful if you're practicing scrum."},{"startTime":1317.113,"endTime":1320.423,"body":"So if you're looking at your cycle time,"},{"startTime":1317.113,"endTime":1320.423,"body":"let's say, and then let's just assume"},{"startTime":1320.423,"endTime":1322.003,"body":"you're in a two week sprint cycle, right?"},{"startTime":1322.013,"endTime":1322.803,"body":"It's two weekends."},{"startTime":1322.953,"endTime":1327.403,"body":"And over time, you notice, let's say"},{"startTime":1322.953,"endTime":1327.403,"body":"over 30 days, 90 days, 30 is probably"},{"startTime":1327.413,"endTime":1328.893,"body":"not long enough, but let's say 90 days."},{"startTime":1329.183,"endTime":1333.973,"body":"You notice that your cycle"},{"startTime":1329.183,"endTime":1333.973,"body":"time is 18 days, 20 days."},{"startTime":1334.123,"endTime":1334.763,"body":"Immediately."},{"startTime":1334.773,"endTime":1337.013,"body":"You should think to yourself"},{"startTime":1334.773,"endTime":1337.013,"body":"on average, it's taking us."},{"startTime":1337.163,"endTime":1340.013,"body":"18 days or 20 days to get"},{"startTime":1337.163,"endTime":1340.013,"body":"something from start to finish,"},{"startTime":1340.163,"endTime":1342.713,"body":"but we're in a 10 day sprint cycle."},{"startTime":1342.863,"endTime":1343.723,"body":"There's something wrong here."},{"startTime":1343.723,"endTime":1344.633,"body":"So start there."},{"startTime":1344.843,"endTime":1349.903,"body":"Most of the ALM tools also, by the way,"},{"startTime":1344.843,"endTime":1349.903,"body":"plot on that same chart, they will plot"},{"startTime":1349.913,"endTime":1351.563,"body":"the work items that contribute to that."},{"startTime":1351.633,"endTime":1352.913,"body":"you can see the outliers."},{"startTime":1352.923,"endTime":1354.353,"body":"You can see what's in the middle."},{"startTime":1354.648,"endTime":1359.068,"body":"occasionally you'll see a pesky bug that"},{"startTime":1354.648,"endTime":1359.068,"body":"took a while to fix or whatever it is."},{"startTime":1359.218,"endTime":1363.688,"body":"So you can get deep diving in at that"},{"startTime":1359.218,"endTime":1363.688,"body":"point and say we need to get that, that"},{"startTime":1363.688,"endTime":1368.278,"body":"number, the cycle time to be single"},{"startTime":1363.688,"endTime":1368.278,"body":"digits because we're in a 10 day sprint."},{"startTime":1368.378,"endTime":1369.028,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1369.178,"endTime":1371.058,"body":"So those are ways you can tell."},{"startTime":1371.208,"endTime":1374.138,"body":"You know, what's going on symptoms"},{"startTime":1371.208,"endTime":1374.138,"body":"basically, yeah, I'm looking at"},{"startTime":1374.138,"endTime":1375.508,"body":"throughput, but I'm also looking at it."},{"startTime":1375.548,"endTime":1380.188,"body":"I'm looking at throughput in terms of"},{"startTime":1375.548,"endTime":1380.188,"body":"the lead time, but I'm also looking at"},{"startTime":1380.188,"endTime":1385.588,"body":"it in terms of time per step because"},{"startTime":1380.188,"endTime":1385.588,"body":"the ALM tool that I use allows me"},{"startTime":1385.588,"endTime":1387.568,"body":"to do that, to see the time in step."},{"startTime":1387.568,"endTime":1391.068,"body":"And just like you were saying, you can"},{"startTime":1387.568,"endTime":1391.068,"body":"see all of the outliers and all of the"},{"startTime":1391.078,"endTime":1394.148,"body":"normal items and it gives you a trend"},{"startTime":1391.078,"endTime":1394.148,"body":"line and it gives you That kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1394.298,"endTime":1398.748,"body":"So I like to do that to basically map"},{"startTime":1394.298,"endTime":1398.748,"body":"the current state before I start asking"},{"startTime":1398.768,"endTime":1400.218,"body":"for changes, because you might find that."},{"startTime":1400.368,"endTime":1404.278,"body":"Like if you just have to do doing"},{"startTime":1400.368,"endTime":1404.278,"body":"done and then the doing step is weeks"},{"startTime":1404.278,"endTime":1407.348,"body":"long, like you just pointed out, like"},{"startTime":1404.278,"endTime":1407.348,"body":"that doing set probably needs to get"},{"startTime":1407.348,"endTime":1410.018,"body":"broken up into smaller steps to kind"},{"startTime":1407.348,"endTime":1410.018,"body":"of represent, well, where, I mean,"},{"startTime":1410.018,"endTime":1413.398,"body":"where is it in doing because if you"},{"startTime":1410.018,"endTime":1413.398,"body":"just say, oh, it's just stuck in doing"},{"startTime":1413.398,"endTime":1414.918,"body":"for three weeks, that's not enough."},{"startTime":1415.008,"endTime":1418.468,"body":"Like That okay, well, out of that doing"},{"startTime":1415.008,"endTime":1418.468,"body":"you have wait time while you're waiting"},{"startTime":1418.468,"endTime":1422.888,"body":"on the users to do the demo, you have"},{"startTime":1418.468,"endTime":1422.888,"body":"time that developers are not spending"},{"startTime":1422.888,"endTime":1425.918,"body":"any time in backlog refinements, and"},{"startTime":1422.888,"endTime":1425.918,"body":"maybe they have a manager that's pushing"},{"startTime":1425.918,"endTime":1427.188,"body":"them to get their sprint planning done"},{"startTime":1427.188,"endTime":1429.358,"body":"15, 20 minutes, right?"},{"startTime":1429.358,"endTime":1432.388,"body":"So that, so they're not breaking the"},{"startTime":1429.358,"endTime":1432.388,"body":"work items down and creating sub tasks"},{"startTime":1432.388,"endTime":1435.888,"body":"and they're not they're not doing micro"},{"startTime":1432.388,"endTime":1435.888,"body":"architecture, just in time architecture"},{"startTime":1436.128,"endTime":1438.248,"body":"or maybe they're waiting the first"},{"startTime":1436.128,"endTime":1438.248,"body":"couple of days of this sprint for things"},{"startTime":1438.248,"endTime":1439.318,"body":"to be delivered, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1439.518,"endTime":1442.068,"body":"You have to identify where these"},{"startTime":1439.518,"endTime":1442.068,"body":"bottlenecks are, maybe create some"},{"startTime":1442.078,"endTime":1445.808,"body":"new statuses, and you have to identify"},{"startTime":1442.078,"endTime":1445.808,"body":"all the stages through which flow"},{"startTime":1445.808,"endTime":1447.628,"body":"happens, and you have to do all that."},{"startTime":1447.778,"endTime":1450.268,"body":"To figure out how to"},{"startTime":1447.778,"endTime":1450.268,"body":"create your initial board."},{"startTime":1450.338,"endTime":1452.568,"body":"I guess you could just create your"},{"startTime":1450.338,"endTime":1452.568,"body":"initial board and do it along the way."},{"startTime":1452.598,"endTime":1454.878,"body":"I was going to say that you could"},{"startTime":1452.598,"endTime":1454.878,"body":"create one and then over time"},{"startTime":1454.878,"endTime":1456.058,"body":"you would embellish it, right."},{"startTime":1456.058,"endTime":1458.398,"body":"And creating other"},{"startTime":1456.058,"endTime":1458.398,"body":"steps as you learn more."},{"startTime":1458.548,"endTime":1460.498,"body":"Yeah, you can continually improve."},{"startTime":1460.748,"endTime":1463.128,"body":"That's going to be one of our steps"},{"startTime":1460.748,"endTime":1463.128,"body":"later, but I wanted to go through"},{"startTime":1463.128,"endTime":1467.668,"body":"all this because one of the core"},{"startTime":1463.128,"endTime":1467.668,"body":"tenants of Kanban that you'll need"},{"startTime":1467.668,"endTime":1470.608,"body":"to figure out very quickly, is you"},{"startTime":1467.668,"endTime":1470.608,"body":"have to establish a whip limit."},{"startTime":1470.758,"endTime":1471.948,"body":"And then hold to it."},{"startTime":1472.098,"endTime":1474.438,"body":"And again, it's every team I've been on."},{"startTime":1474.438,"endTime":1476.918,"body":"We just pick one out of the air"},{"startTime":1474.438,"endTime":1476.918,"body":"and we adjust it over time based"},{"startTime":1476.918,"endTime":1480.078,"body":"on what the reality yeah, I mean,"},{"startTime":1476.918,"endTime":1480.078,"body":"certainly that works, right?"},{"startTime":1480.228,"endTime":1483.568,"body":"I like to use the number of people"},{"startTime":1480.228,"endTime":1483.568,"body":"that are working on things, a number"},{"startTime":1483.568,"endTime":1487.728,"body":"of team members that are actively"},{"startTime":1483.568,"endTime":1487.728,"body":"working on items in a given column."},{"startTime":1487.878,"endTime":1490.248,"body":"So if you have, let's"},{"startTime":1487.878,"endTime":1490.248,"body":"say, Use the number five."},{"startTime":1490.538,"endTime":1493.968,"body":"If you have five people working"},{"startTime":1490.538,"endTime":1493.968,"body":"on items in a column, the minimum"},{"startTime":1494.148,"endTime":1495.688,"body":"WIP limit you can have is five."},{"startTime":1495.728,"endTime":1497.518,"body":"Each person is working on one thing only."},{"startTime":1497.668,"endTime":1498.008,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1498.158,"endTime":1501.038,"body":"But then maybe somebody is"},{"startTime":1498.158,"endTime":1501.038,"body":"just waiting on something."},{"startTime":1501.188,"endTime":1501.528,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1501.528,"endTime":1504.738,"body":"So maybe they should have another"},{"startTime":1501.528,"endTime":1504.738,"body":"task they can work on, subtask."},{"startTime":1504.888,"endTime":1507.508,"body":"So you could say, well,"},{"startTime":1504.888,"endTime":1507.508,"body":"maybe just use ten then."},{"startTime":1507.578,"endTime":1507.808,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1507.958,"endTime":1509.638,"body":"Two for each each developer."},{"startTime":1509.668,"endTime":1510.188,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1510.188,"endTime":1513.988,"body":"Also I go with seven because it's a bit"},{"startTime":1510.188,"endTime":1513.988,"body":"more aggressive seven or eight because"},{"startTime":1513.988,"endTime":1515.318,"body":"not everybody's going to be waiting."},{"startTime":1515.468,"endTime":1519.358,"body":"At the same time, so it works out"},{"startTime":1515.468,"endTime":1519.358,"body":"and you could tweak it as you go."},{"startTime":1519.408,"endTime":1521.198,"body":"you can see if people are overloaded."},{"startTime":1521.348,"endTime":1526.168,"body":"You can also see if the flow"},{"startTime":1521.348,"endTime":1526.168,"body":"is is now getting impeded."},{"startTime":1526.318,"endTime":1526.658,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1526.938,"endTime":1530.068,"body":"You're always starting and not"},{"startTime":1526.938,"endTime":1530.068,"body":"finishing or moving things through."},{"startTime":1530.218,"endTime":1533.878,"body":"That's the benefit of whip limit Actually,"},{"startTime":1530.218,"endTime":1533.878,"body":"a lot of people misunderstand it and say"},{"startTime":1534.028,"endTime":1536.818,"body":"Why constrain us with a limit like that."},{"startTime":1536.878,"endTime":1537.148,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1537.208,"endTime":1539.098,"body":"But we are actually not constraining them."},{"startTime":1539.158,"endTime":1542.308,"body":"You are actually easing"},{"startTime":1539.158,"endTime":1542.308,"body":"flow by having a WIP limit."},{"startTime":1542.308,"endTime":1542.488,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1542.548,"endTime":1546.028,"body":"'cause it forces you to start progressing"},{"startTime":1542.548,"endTime":1546.028,"body":"things instead of just letting them"},{"startTime":1546.028,"endTime":1547.708,"body":"stall and picking up new things."},{"startTime":1547.708,"endTime":1547.798,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":1548.038,"endTime":1550.528,"body":", which is really causing a blockage, right."},{"startTime":1550.768,"endTime":1551.488,"body":"In your system."},{"startTime":1551.548,"endTime":1551.728,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1551.878,"endTime":1554.843,"body":"I wonder like, so let's Say we"},{"startTime":1551.878,"endTime":1554.843,"body":"have a team with five developers."},{"startTime":1554.873,"endTime":1558.003,"body":"Would you set the Wi whip limit"},{"startTime":1554.873,"endTime":1558.003,"body":"at like seven if, if you can."},{"startTime":1558.303,"endTime":1558.423,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1558.573,"endTime":1561.813,"body":"You know, like what, what would be wrong"},{"startTime":1558.573,"endTime":1561.813,"body":"with setting the whip limit at like"},{"startTime":1561.963,"endTime":1564.213,"body":"five or four or something like that?"},{"startTime":1564.213,"endTime":1564.363,"body":"Nothing."},{"startTime":1564.393,"endTime":1568.503,"body":"Well, four would be too little"},{"startTime":1564.393,"endTime":1568.503,"body":"because five people can only work"},{"startTime":1568.503,"endTime":1570.693,"body":"on four things then right at a time."},{"startTime":1570.843,"endTime":1570.993,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1570.993,"endTime":1574.683,"body":"But four things like does it, I mean,"},{"startTime":1570.993,"endTime":1574.683,"body":"obviously this is up to the team to"},{"startTime":1574.683,"endTime":1579.183,"body":"figure out what the whip limit is, but I"},{"startTime":1574.683,"endTime":1579.183,"body":"am concerned with having the whip limit."},{"startTime":1579.333,"endTime":1582.013,"body":"At seven for a team of five, because."},{"startTime":1582.163,"endTime":1585.773,"body":"I feel now that everybody's working"},{"startTime":1582.163,"endTime":1585.773,"body":"on their own individual work item."},{"startTime":1586.053,"endTime":1589.483,"body":"And this probably one or two other"},{"startTime":1586.053,"endTime":1589.483,"body":"things that are kind of in the air"},{"startTime":1589.483,"endTime":1592.853,"body":"that multiple people are kind of"},{"startTime":1589.483,"endTime":1592.853,"body":"touching, putting back, putting on a"},{"startTime":1592.853,"endTime":1594.173,"body":"hold as they go back to their item."},{"startTime":1594.353,"endTime":1597.323,"body":"I don't, as a product manager, one"},{"startTime":1594.353,"endTime":1597.323,"body":"of the things I don't like is I don't"},{"startTime":1597.323,"endTime":1600.133,"body":"like someone picking something up while"},{"startTime":1597.323,"endTime":1600.133,"body":"they're waiting on some other step"},{"startTime":1600.333,"endTime":1602.373,"body":"and then working on it temporarily"},{"startTime":1600.333,"endTime":1602.373,"body":"and then putting on a hold and"},{"startTime":1602.373,"endTime":1603.523,"body":"then coming back to something else."},{"startTime":1603.673,"endTime":1604.793,"body":"I don't like that as a product manager."},{"startTime":1604.943,"endTime":1607.063,"body":"Because it's very difficult to"},{"startTime":1604.943,"endTime":1607.063,"body":"forecast when people are doing that."},{"startTime":1607.353,"endTime":1609.873,"body":"But also I don't like it as"},{"startTime":1607.353,"endTime":1609.873,"body":"a, someone who writes code."},{"startTime":1609.973,"endTime":1614.593,"body":"I can't stand having to stop doing"},{"startTime":1609.973,"endTime":1614.593,"body":"something to go to do something else."},{"startTime":1614.593,"endTime":1617.913,"body":"Cause when I come back to where"},{"startTime":1614.593,"endTime":1617.913,"body":"I was in whatever program I was"},{"startTime":1617.913,"endTime":1620.953,"body":"writing, it's difficult to pick up"},{"startTime":1617.913,"endTime":1620.953,"body":"context, switching and all of that."},{"startTime":1621.293,"endTime":1623.073,"body":"But it happens right in reality."},{"startTime":1623.243,"endTime":1627.753,"body":"What happens is you come across something"},{"startTime":1623.243,"endTime":1627.753,"body":"that makes you pause and wait for"},{"startTime":1627.763,"endTime":1630.103,"body":"feedback from somebody else or for."},{"startTime":1630.253,"endTime":1631.843,"body":"A dependency to be met or whatever."},{"startTime":1631.853,"endTime":1633.573,"body":"In that case, you can park that item."},{"startTime":1633.693,"endTime":1637.883,"body":"So if you really ratchet down the"},{"startTime":1633.693,"endTime":1637.883,"body":"WIP limit, then that developer has"},{"startTime":1637.883,"endTime":1639.103,"body":"nothing else he's going to work on."},{"startTime":1639.253,"endTime":1640.323,"body":"Or she, right?"},{"startTime":1640.473,"endTime":1643.533,"body":"So if you loosen it up a"},{"startTime":1640.473,"endTime":1643.533,"body":"little, five people, seven."},{"startTime":1643.683,"endTime":1644.873,"body":"One person's got stuck."},{"startTime":1644.913,"endTime":1647.073,"body":"They park that item, they"},{"startTime":1644.913,"endTime":1647.073,"body":"can pick up another one."},{"startTime":1647.383,"endTime":1648.913,"body":"And they can start working, right?"},{"startTime":1649.063,"endTime":1653.813,"body":"Otherwise, you don't have enough"},{"startTime":1649.063,"endTime":1653.813,"body":"space in your, in your flow, right?"},{"startTime":1653.963,"endTime":1654.963,"body":"It's solid."},{"startTime":1655.263,"endTime":1657.723,"body":"You find people just waiting"},{"startTime":1655.263,"endTime":1657.723,"body":"saying, well, I can't proceed."},{"startTime":1657.723,"endTime":1658.213,"body":"What do I do?"},{"startTime":1658.303,"endTime":1659.733,"body":"Yeah, there's ways around that."},{"startTime":1660.003,"endTime":1664.273,"body":"So if you really want to go at five,"},{"startTime":1660.003,"endTime":1664.273,"body":"the theoretical minimum, one way around"},{"startTime":1664.273,"endTime":1666.613,"body":"that is to mob program or pair program."},{"startTime":1666.663,"endTime":1669.493,"body":"Now the number of items doesn't"},{"startTime":1666.663,"endTime":1669.493,"body":"come into the picture because one"},{"startTime":1669.493,"endTime":1670.673,"body":"item, two people are working on it."},{"startTime":1670.963,"endTime":1672.103,"body":"Three people are working on it."},{"startTime":1672.253,"endTime":1674.253,"body":"Well, if I'm going to challenge"},{"startTime":1672.253,"endTime":1674.253,"body":"any of this stuff, that's the"},{"startTime":1674.253,"endTime":1675.253,"body":"stuff I want to talk about."},{"startTime":1675.343,"endTime":1679.223,"body":"Cause I don't hear a lot of people talking"},{"startTime":1675.343,"endTime":1679.223,"body":"about what, if I stamp everything with"},{"startTime":1679.223,"endTime":1682.313,"body":"a business value, let's pretend for a"},{"startTime":1679.223,"endTime":1682.313,"body":"second that I'm a good product manager."},{"startTime":1682.423,"endTime":1684.283,"body":"And I'm stamping everything"},{"startTime":1682.423,"endTime":1684.283,"body":"with a business value."},{"startTime":1684.283,"endTime":1686.293,"body":"So I've got the thing in my top lane."},{"startTime":1686.443,"endTime":1689.373,"body":"My highest priority is"},{"startTime":1686.443,"endTime":1689.373,"body":"business value five, and then"},{"startTime":1689.523,"endTime":1693.233,"body":"there are seven things in"},{"startTime":1689.523,"endTime":1693.233,"body":"progress on my combine board."},{"startTime":1693.383,"endTime":1697.693,"body":"The top one is a five with"},{"startTime":1693.383,"endTime":1697.693,"body":"regard to my business value."},{"startTime":1697.843,"endTime":1698.943,"body":"I gotta have it."},{"startTime":1699.223,"endTime":1702.883,"body":"Huge impact when it comes through the"},{"startTime":1699.223,"endTime":1702.883,"body":"next thing under that is like a three and"},{"startTime":1702.883,"endTime":1706.633,"body":"then the other five things on the board"},{"startTime":1702.883,"endTime":1706.633,"body":"are ones they're nice enhancements, nice"},{"startTime":1706.633,"endTime":1710.713,"body":"fixes, like bug fixes, whatever, but you"},{"startTime":1706.633,"endTime":1710.713,"body":"know, I will put them all in a pile and"},{"startTime":1710.723,"endTime":1712.683,"body":"burn them to get number five delivered."},{"startTime":1712.833,"endTime":1713.283,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1713.293,"endTime":1716.303,"body":"So first of all, there aren't"},{"startTime":1713.293,"endTime":1716.303,"body":"seven things in progress, right?"},{"startTime":1716.453,"endTime":1719.828,"body":"If your whip limit is five, This should"},{"startTime":1716.453,"endTime":1719.828,"body":"be five things in progress, right?"},{"startTime":1720.138,"endTime":1723.738,"body":"If your web limit is seven,"},{"startTime":1720.138,"endTime":1723.738,"body":"you could go up to seven."},{"startTime":1723.758,"endTime":1725.698,"body":"So it's, you only have"},{"startTime":1723.758,"endTime":1725.698,"body":"five developers, remember?"},{"startTime":1725.848,"endTime":1727.678,"body":"So each developer is working"},{"startTime":1725.848,"endTime":1727.678,"body":"on one thing at a time."},{"startTime":1727.908,"endTime":1729.618,"body":"But developer number three gets stuck."},{"startTime":1729.618,"endTime":1732.068,"body":"So what they do is they park that task."},{"startTime":1732.218,"endTime":1733.988,"body":"And they bring another task in"},{"startTime":1734.288,"endTime":1739.068,"body":"do you represent work that is started"},{"startTime":1734.288,"endTime":1739.068,"body":"and then pause for reasons, whatever"},{"startTime":1739.078,"endTime":1742.668,"body":"reasons, do you leave it in the lane that"},{"startTime":1739.078,"endTime":1742.668,"body":"it's in, even though nobody's actually"},{"startTime":1742.668,"endTime":1747.168,"body":"working it, or do you move it to some"},{"startTime":1742.668,"endTime":1747.168,"body":"sort of stalled work kind of lane?"},{"startTime":1747.368,"endTime":1748.028,"body":"I've done both."},{"startTime":1748.128,"endTime":1752.108,"body":"I've used a on hold column right"},{"startTime":1748.128,"endTime":1752.108,"body":"next to the in progress column."},{"startTime":1752.258,"endTime":1754.248,"body":"As long as the team is looking at it."},{"startTime":1754.398,"endTime":1758.038,"body":"Frequently, several times a day,"},{"startTime":1754.398,"endTime":1758.038,"body":"potentially and say, what does it take?"},{"startTime":1758.038,"endTime":1762.078,"body":"when we talk about these cards in the"},{"startTime":1758.038,"endTime":1762.078,"body":"columns, I like to ask the question."},{"startTime":1762.228,"endTime":1762.498,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1762.708,"endTime":1766.028,"body":"We don't, this is not scrum Where you"},{"startTime":1762.708,"endTime":1766.028,"body":"say, well, what did you work on yesterday?"},{"startTime":1766.058,"endTime":1770.858,"body":"So we just say, what, what I like to do"},{"startTime":1766.058,"endTime":1770.858,"body":"is say, what is stopping the team moving"},{"startTime":1770.868,"endTime":1773.688,"body":"this card to the column to its right?"},{"startTime":1773.838,"endTime":1775.108,"body":"That's the question, right?"},{"startTime":1775.258,"endTime":1779.078,"body":"Collectively as a team, how can we"},{"startTime":1775.258,"endTime":1779.078,"body":"move this card from where it is?"},{"startTime":1779.228,"endTime":1782.498,"body":"To the next column and we can have"},{"startTime":1779.228,"endTime":1782.498,"body":"a discussion around that and the"},{"startTime":1782.498,"endTime":1785.688,"body":"developer who's stuck would say, well,"},{"startTime":1782.498,"endTime":1785.688,"body":"I'm stuck on that one if it's in the"},{"startTime":1785.698,"endTime":1789.198,"body":"in progress call, if it's in the on"},{"startTime":1785.698,"endTime":1789.198,"body":"hold, it's obvious it's an on hold."},{"startTime":1789.198,"endTime":1790.088,"body":"We talk about that."},{"startTime":1790.108,"endTime":1793.778,"body":"Well, I was going to say, I'll tell you"},{"startTime":1790.108,"endTime":1793.778,"body":"right now, full disclosure, my team and"},{"startTime":1793.778,"endTime":1795.598,"body":"I disagree on having a block column."},{"startTime":1795.748,"endTime":1797.698,"body":"I don't want a block column."},{"startTime":1797.808,"endTime":1803.288,"body":"I would rather you indicate a status"},{"startTime":1797.808,"endTime":1803.288,"body":"of blocked, leave it in the column."},{"startTime":1803.288,"endTime":1807.438,"body":"It's in change the status to blocked and"},{"startTime":1803.288,"endTime":1807.438,"body":"the card will show up red in the column."},{"startTime":1807.448,"endTime":1811.398,"body":"It's in, and it will stay"},{"startTime":1807.448,"endTime":1811.398,"body":"like a broken down car."},{"startTime":1811.408,"endTime":1813.858,"body":"It will say exactly where it's"},{"startTime":1811.408,"endTime":1813.858,"body":"at until I call a tow truck."},{"startTime":1814.008,"endTime":1814.738,"body":"I want that."},{"startTime":1814.938,"endTime":1816.778,"body":"I want it in the middle of the road."},{"startTime":1816.928,"endTime":1818.118,"body":"Making everyone angry."},{"startTime":1818.368,"endTime":1821.258,"body":"I want it to stay there and I don't"},{"startTime":1818.368,"endTime":1821.258,"body":"want to point it to management and"},{"startTime":1821.258,"endTime":1823.638,"body":"say, you see that, see that car"},{"startTime":1821.258,"endTime":1823.638,"body":"stuck in the middle of the road."},{"startTime":1823.918,"endTime":1826.828,"body":"This is why we can't have nice"},{"startTime":1823.918,"endTime":1826.828,"body":"things, I do not want to take it"},{"startTime":1826.988,"endTime":1830.028,"body":"and hide it over here and say,"},{"startTime":1826.988,"endTime":1830.028,"body":"Oh, don't go to that parking lot."},{"startTime":1830.048,"endTime":1831.308,"body":"That's where all our junk cars are."},{"startTime":1831.308,"endTime":1832.548,"body":"that's definitely an anti bad."},{"startTime":1832.548,"endTime":1833.908,"body":"And so many people do that."},{"startTime":1833.908,"endTime":1836.838,"body":"But the same thing is like, if"},{"startTime":1833.908,"endTime":1836.838,"body":"I have a whip limit of seven,"},{"startTime":1836.988,"endTime":1839.798,"body":"we have five, six things in"},{"startTime":1836.988,"endTime":1839.798,"body":"progress, some things are parked."},{"startTime":1839.948,"endTime":1843.358,"body":"So now like they don't really"},{"startTime":1839.948,"endTime":1843.358,"body":"comply with a WIP limit because we"},{"startTime":1843.358,"endTime":1846.288,"body":"moved into this where we worked a"},{"startTime":1843.358,"endTime":1846.288,"body":"little on it and now we're blocked."},{"startTime":1846.438,"endTime":1849.628,"body":"and as a product manager, I'm going"},{"startTime":1846.438,"endTime":1849.628,"body":"to say This is the priority item."},{"startTime":1849.848,"endTime":1851.728,"body":"We can't be blocked on the priority item."},{"startTime":1851.778,"endTime":1856.388,"body":"I can't have your status be I'm"},{"startTime":1851.778,"endTime":1856.388,"body":"working on I was working on this"},{"startTime":1856.388,"endTime":1857.918,"body":"item yesterday and I got blocked."},{"startTime":1857.968,"endTime":1861.468,"body":"So I pulled this new item in and I moved"},{"startTime":1857.968,"endTime":1861.468,"body":"that to the, to the, to the parking lot."},{"startTime":1861.568,"endTime":1862.478,"body":"We'll talk about it later."},{"startTime":1862.528,"endTime":1863.228,"body":"No blockers."},{"startTime":1863.508,"endTime":1865.547,"body":"I'm like, wait, wait, wait,"},{"startTime":1863.508,"endTime":1865.547,"body":"wait, wait, wait, wait."},{"startTime":1865.548,"endTime":1866.818,"body":"That's not working the right way."},{"startTime":1867.018,"endTime":1869.498,"body":"So, so let's just kind of"},{"startTime":1867.018,"endTime":1869.498,"body":"unpack that a little bit."},{"startTime":1869.508,"endTime":1869.788,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1869.938,"endTime":1872.015,"body":"When you have a So many"},{"startTime":1869.938,"endTime":1872.015,"body":"times I've seen this."},{"startTime":1872.055,"endTime":1872.885,"body":"No blockers."},{"startTime":1872.915,"endTime":1873.435,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1873.585,"endTime":1876.805,"body":"I'm a big fan of having this"},{"startTime":1873.585,"endTime":1876.805,"body":"thing show up in red in progress."},{"startTime":1876.865,"endTime":1878.545,"body":"I'm a big fan of that"},{"startTime":1876.865,"endTime":1878.545,"body":"because you can see it."},{"startTime":1878.695,"endTime":1882.805,"body":"There are some teams that like to"},{"startTime":1878.695,"endTime":1882.805,"body":"have things separated out and say,"},{"startTime":1882.835,"endTime":1883.915,"body":"well, here's what we're working on."},{"startTime":1883.915,"endTime":1885.735,"body":"We're going to keep moving things forward."},{"startTime":1886.025,"endTime":1890.725,"body":"That's not saying that they pull"},{"startTime":1886.025,"endTime":1890.725,"body":"up anything from lower in the order"},{"startTime":1891.065,"endTime":1892.895,"body":"that is a lower business value."},{"startTime":1893.045,"endTime":1896.795,"body":"typically when teams are doing this,"},{"startTime":1893.045,"endTime":1896.795,"body":"they're at the task level or subtask."},{"startTime":1896.945,"endTime":1901.78,"body":"It's one user story or PBI that has"},{"startTime":1896.945,"endTime":1901.78,"body":"multiple tasks you can bring in."},{"startTime":1902.05,"endTime":1904.31,"body":"Five tasks typically, right?"},{"startTime":1904.37,"endTime":1907.52,"body":"Cause yeah, we play me to seven,"},{"startTime":1904.37,"endTime":1907.52,"body":"bring in five, five developers."},{"startTime":1907.67,"endTime":1910.7,"body":"One developer gets stuck on one"},{"startTime":1907.67,"endTime":1910.7,"body":"of their tasks, bring in another"},{"startTime":1910.7,"endTime":1913.03,"body":"task off that important news story."},{"startTime":1913.03,"endTime":1916.62,"body":"I'm not saying use another story, but"},{"startTime":1913.03,"endTime":1916.62,"body":"they're discussing this every day."},{"startTime":1916.77,"endTime":1917.04,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1917.06,"endTime":1919.08,"body":"So they can say, well,"},{"startTime":1917.06,"endTime":1919.08,"body":"I'm really stuck on that."},{"startTime":1919.12,"endTime":1919.32,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1919.33,"endTime":1919.97,"body":"Who can help?"},{"startTime":1920.06,"endTime":1920.29,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1920.4,"endTime":1923.14,"body":"And that should be the first"},{"startTime":1920.4,"endTime":1923.14,"body":"thing we talk about before we even"},{"startTime":1923.39,"endTime":1926.86,"body":"entertain the idea of picking up"},{"startTime":1923.39,"endTime":1926.86,"body":"the next business value item, right?"},{"startTime":1926.9,"endTime":1928.83,"body":"It's high priority, high business value."},{"startTime":1929.1,"endTime":1929.86,"body":"Stay focused on it."},{"startTime":1930.28,"endTime":1934.4,"body":"I was told once that, on an assembly"},{"startTime":1930.28,"endTime":1934.4,"body":"line thinking like conveyor belt"},{"startTime":1934.62,"endTime":1936.6,"body":"assembly line is not possible."},{"startTime":1936.75,"endTime":1938.06,"body":"To run the line backwards."},{"startTime":1938.21,"endTime":1941.92,"body":"So you, it is not possible to move"},{"startTime":1938.21,"endTime":1941.92,"body":"an item from one station, from"},{"startTime":1941.92,"endTime":1945.15,"body":"station number one, to station number"},{"startTime":1941.92,"endTime":1945.15,"body":"two, to station number three, and"},{"startTime":1945.15,"endTime":1946.8,"body":"then back to station number one."},{"startTime":1946.85,"endTime":1949.24,"body":"So I'm trying to sync that with"},{"startTime":1946.85,"endTime":1949.24,"body":"what we're talking about now."},{"startTime":1949.24,"endTime":1952.38,"body":"We don't have a black column or we don't"},{"startTime":1949.24,"endTime":1952.38,"body":"have a separate column for on hold or"},{"startTime":1952.38,"endTime":1956.14,"body":"whatever, we just turn the card red"},{"startTime":1952.38,"endTime":1956.14,"body":"and it stalls in the lane that it's in."},{"startTime":1956.29,"endTime":1956.81,"body":"Now it's a."},{"startTime":1956.96,"endTime":1960.71,"body":"Permanent blocker for us and we have"},{"startTime":1956.96,"endTime":1960.71,"body":"to resolve it Like it's it's it's"},{"startTime":1960.71,"endTime":1964.29,"body":"basically sitting at the station on"},{"startTime":1960.71,"endTime":1964.29,"body":"like the car manufacturing assembly"},{"startTime":1964.29,"endTime":1967.06,"body":"line It's sitting at the station"},{"startTime":1964.29,"endTime":1967.06,"body":"and everything else is piling up."},{"startTime":1967.06,"endTime":1967.27,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1967.53,"endTime":1967.8,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1967.84,"endTime":1968.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1968.0,"endTime":1970.69,"body":"Yeah, that's the way I look at"},{"startTime":1968.0,"endTime":1970.69,"body":"it The baggage belt metaphor."},{"startTime":1970.69,"endTime":1973.1,"body":"Yeah I mean, I guess if you have enough"},{"startTime":1970.69,"endTime":1973.1,"body":"room in your station You can move it to"},{"startTime":1973.1,"endTime":1977.04,"body":"the side and it's gonna be in your way the"},{"startTime":1973.1,"endTime":1977.04,"body":"whole time you're working in your mental"},{"startTime":1977.06,"endTime":1982.12,"body":"cognitive space in your way the whole time"},{"startTime":1977.06,"endTime":1982.12,"body":"you're working I would, I don't like that."},{"startTime":1982.15,"endTime":1983.25,"body":"I don't like it for so many reasons."},{"startTime":1983.25,"endTime":1983.68,"body":"I don't like it."},{"startTime":1983.69,"endTime":1984.69,"body":"Cause it's cognitive load."},{"startTime":1984.9,"endTime":1987.4,"body":"I don't like it because it seems like"},{"startTime":1984.9,"endTime":1987.4,"body":"waste to me as a product manager."},{"startTime":1987.58,"endTime":1990.08,"body":"I don't like it because now I"},{"startTime":1987.58,"endTime":1990.08,"body":"like, you're kind of blowing"},{"startTime":1990.08,"endTime":1991.34,"body":"my forecast out of the water."},{"startTime":1991.685,"endTime":1995.235,"body":"Listen, all of those are valid reasons"},{"startTime":1991.685,"endTime":1995.235,"body":"why you don't like it and, and fine."},{"startTime":1995.245,"endTime":1999.575,"body":"But reality is sometimes things do get"},{"startTime":1995.245,"endTime":1999.575,"body":"blocked and it could take some time."},{"startTime":1999.725,"endTime":2005.455,"body":"The team's goal should be to always focus"},{"startTime":1999.725,"endTime":2005.455,"body":"on that and say, how can we unblock that?"},{"startTime":2005.535,"endTime":2006.375,"body":"Who do we need?"},{"startTime":2006.725,"endTime":2010.215,"body":"Whose help do we need to do this"},{"startTime":2006.725,"endTime":2010.215,"body":"instead of, well, you're blocked"},{"startTime":2010.215,"endTime":2013.365,"body":"on that, pick up another task,"},{"startTime":2010.215,"endTime":2013.365,"body":"you only pick up another task."},{"startTime":2013.515,"endTime":2016.365,"body":"If you know, you've already"},{"startTime":2013.515,"endTime":2016.365,"body":"discussed that blocker someone's"},{"startTime":2016.365,"endTime":2017.425,"body":"doing something about it."},{"startTime":2017.74,"endTime":2020.02,"body":"But here and now, you"},{"startTime":2017.74,"endTime":2020.02,"body":"have nothing to work on."},{"startTime":2020.17,"endTime":2020.55,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2020.59,"endTime":2022.84,"body":"So if you sit there twirling"},{"startTime":2020.59,"endTime":2022.84,"body":"your thumbs, now you're creating"},{"startTime":2022.84,"endTime":2023.66,"body":"a different type of waste."},{"startTime":2023.81,"endTime":2027.12,"body":"So yeah, I agree with you"},{"startTime":2023.81,"endTime":2027.12,"body":"on being extremely diligent"},{"startTime":2027.16,"endTime":2028.59,"body":"on removing that blocker."},{"startTime":2028.67,"endTime":2029.71,"body":"First and foremost."},{"startTime":2029.92,"endTime":2030.8,"body":"That should be the goal."},{"startTime":2030.95,"endTime":2035.17,"body":"But by having it turn red, or by"},{"startTime":2030.95,"endTime":2035.17,"body":"having it be very conspicuous,"},{"startTime":2035.17,"endTime":2038.33,"body":"you're not hiding it anywhere in"},{"startTime":2035.17,"endTime":2038.33,"body":"an on hold or a blocked column."},{"startTime":2038.48,"endTime":2042.26,"body":"When the team look at the board, they"},{"startTime":2038.48,"endTime":2042.26,"body":"shouldn't be looking at what's in play."},{"startTime":2042.31,"endTime":2045.245,"body":"They should be looking at What's in"},{"startTime":2042.31,"endTime":2045.245,"body":"that block column, what's in that"},{"startTime":2045.245,"endTime":2048.575,"body":"on hold column and then collectively"},{"startTime":2045.245,"endTime":2048.575,"body":"swarm out and say, what do we need"},{"startTime":2048.585,"endTime":2050.455,"body":"to do to get that thing out of there?"},{"startTime":2050.565,"endTime":2053.675,"body":"As far as your reference to, yeah,"},{"startTime":2050.565,"endTime":2053.675,"body":"assembly line doesn't go backwards."},{"startTime":2054.025,"endTime":2058.295,"body":"So one thing you could do, and it's sort"},{"startTime":2054.025,"endTime":2058.295,"body":"of like cheating almost, is you have"},{"startTime":2058.295,"endTime":2063.555,"body":"your to do, you have your blocked, you"},{"startTime":2058.295,"endTime":2063.555,"body":"have your in progress so you can go back."},{"startTime":2063.705,"endTime":2066.655,"body":"From in progress to blocked,"},{"startTime":2063.705,"endTime":2066.655,"body":"but it's not really going back."},{"startTime":2066.695,"endTime":2067.495,"body":"It's temporary."},{"startTime":2067.645,"endTime":2071.465,"body":"And I mean, minimize the time an"},{"startTime":2067.645,"endTime":2071.465,"body":"item spends in the block column."},{"startTime":2071.505,"endTime":2072.785,"body":"That should be the goal, right?"},{"startTime":2072.835,"endTime":2076.175,"body":"Let's just finish off this discussion"},{"startTime":2072.835,"endTime":2076.175,"body":"on the lanes of the WIP limit, there's"},{"startTime":2076.175,"endTime":2077.345,"body":"one other thing we haven't talked about."},{"startTime":2077.495,"endTime":2082.095,"body":"In scrum teams have, or should"},{"startTime":2077.495,"endTime":2082.095,"body":"have a definition of done right."},{"startTime":2082.375,"endTime":2086.615,"body":"When you know something is, is"},{"startTime":2082.375,"endTime":2086.615,"body":"basically so in Kanban, you have, Any"},{"startTime":2086.625,"endTime":2090.185,"body":"number of different columns states"},{"startTime":2086.625,"endTime":2090.185,"body":"that you're tracking and in Kanban,"},{"startTime":2090.185,"endTime":2091.935,"body":"there is a concept of that, right?"},{"startTime":2091.975,"endTime":2093.545,"body":"It's not called definition of done."},{"startTime":2093.695,"endTime":2098.695,"body":"In other words, how do I know when it's"},{"startTime":2093.695,"endTime":2098.695,"body":"okay for me to move an item from one"},{"startTime":2098.695,"endTime":2101.015,"body":"column over to the column to its right?"},{"startTime":2101.165,"endTime":2102.465,"body":"When's it okay to do that?"},{"startTime":2102.725,"endTime":2104.095,"body":"Is that just up to me?"},{"startTime":2104.375,"endTime":2107.555,"body":"No, it should be formalized,"},{"startTime":2104.375,"endTime":2107.555,"body":"and it should be documented."},{"startTime":2107.705,"endTime":2111.375,"body":"And most ALM tools, again,"},{"startTime":2107.705,"endTime":2111.375,"body":"allow you to do that and display"},{"startTime":2111.375,"endTime":2112.475,"body":"it at the top of the column."},{"startTime":2112.625,"endTime":2114.625,"body":"This is what they call a policy."},{"startTime":2114.775,"endTime":2120.295,"body":"So the policy is, we only move from in"},{"startTime":2114.775,"endTime":2120.295,"body":"progress to you know, demo ready when"},{"startTime":2120.515,"endTime":2122.845,"body":"these X number of things have been met."},{"startTime":2122.9,"endTime":2126.25,"body":"And if they're explicitly"},{"startTime":2122.9,"endTime":2126.25,"body":"stated, then they become easy to"},{"startTime":2126.25,"endTime":2128.72,"body":"measure checkboxes effectively."},{"startTime":2128.87,"endTime":2131.26,"body":"When all the checkboxes are"},{"startTime":2128.87,"endTime":2131.26,"body":"checked, you can now move it."},{"startTime":2131.34,"endTime":2133.81,"body":"But if one of them is not checked,"},{"startTime":2131.34,"endTime":2133.81,"body":"you haven't met the policy."},{"startTime":2133.96,"endTime":2135.4,"body":"So that is extremely important."},{"startTime":2135.46,"endTime":2138.09,"body":"Here you have to be very,"},{"startTime":2135.46,"endTime":2138.09,"body":"very strict about it."},{"startTime":2138.36,"endTime":2142.49,"body":"Otherwise, what's going to happen is,"},{"startTime":2138.36,"endTime":2142.49,"body":"even though Perceptively, you have"},{"startTime":2142.57,"endTime":2144.65,"body":"smooth flow, you're not effective."},{"startTime":2144.76,"endTime":2146.36,"body":"Because you're missing"},{"startTime":2144.76,"endTime":2146.36,"body":"stuff along the way."},{"startTime":2146.42,"endTime":2148.35,"body":"And that's talking to"},{"startTime":2146.42,"endTime":2148.35,"body":"the quality aspect of it."},{"startTime":2148.4,"endTime":2152.92,"body":"So your steps sort of is where"},{"startTime":2148.4,"endTime":2152.92,"body":"your definition of done lives."},{"startTime":2153.21,"endTime":2154.16,"body":"Per column."},{"startTime":2154.24,"endTime":2154.75,"body":"Per column."},{"startTime":2154.76,"endTime":2157.29,"body":"I like that that's clean and"},{"startTime":2154.76,"endTime":2157.29,"body":"it's super easy to inspect"},{"startTime":2157.29,"endTime":2158.6,"body":"and figure out and talk about."},{"startTime":2158.61,"endTime":2159.54,"body":"I like that later."},{"startTime":2159.54,"endTime":2162.57,"body":"We'll come back to that topic on"},{"startTime":2159.54,"endTime":2162.57,"body":"when we talk about the difference"},{"startTime":2162.64,"endTime":2166.46,"body":"between what is Kanban and what is"},{"startTime":2162.64,"endTime":2166.46,"body":"and on, if people come across and on."},{"startTime":2166.52,"endTime":2169.05,"body":"so daily standups, we"},{"startTime":2166.52,"endTime":2169.05,"body":"keep them, they change."},{"startTime":2169.2,"endTime":2169.47,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2169.47,"endTime":2171.94,"body":"So daily standups they"},{"startTime":2169.47,"endTime":2171.94,"body":"don't have to be daily."},{"startTime":2171.94,"endTime":2171.955,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2172.105,"endTime":2175.155,"body":"Sync points, whatever you want to"},{"startTime":2172.105,"endTime":2175.155,"body":"call them, daily syncs, they can"},{"startTime":2175.155,"endTime":2178.015,"body":"be daily, they can be twice a day,"},{"startTime":2175.155,"endTime":2178.015,"body":"they can be once every other day."},{"startTime":2178.245,"endTime":2182.065,"body":"It's really up to the team to decide"},{"startTime":2178.245,"endTime":2182.065,"body":"how often they need to synchronize."},{"startTime":2182.215,"endTime":2184.215,"body":"But, You do need to synchronize, right?"},{"startTime":2184.285,"endTime":2185.955,"body":"they don't just miraculously disappear."},{"startTime":2186.005,"endTime":2189.445,"body":"People don't go into their corners"},{"startTime":2186.005,"endTime":2189.445,"body":"and start working on stuff and not"},{"startTime":2189.505,"endTime":2191.055,"body":"show up again, right, for a long time."},{"startTime":2191.315,"endTime":2194.255,"body":"The team has to figure out"},{"startTime":2191.315,"endTime":2194.255,"body":"what's a good cadence for us."},{"startTime":2194.305,"endTime":2195.155,"body":"Or is it ad hoc?"},{"startTime":2195.205,"endTime":2195.935,"body":"Maybe it's ad hoc."},{"startTime":2195.985,"endTime":2198.725,"body":"Maybe everybody communicates"},{"startTime":2195.985,"endTime":2198.725,"body":"through a Google chat channel"},{"startTime":2198.725,"endTime":2199.995,"body":"or a Teams channel or whatever."},{"startTime":2200.295,"endTime":2201.945,"body":"And then they say, oh, we"},{"startTime":2200.295,"endTime":2201.945,"body":"need a huddle right now."},{"startTime":2202.1,"endTime":2203.17,"body":"Boom, get together."},{"startTime":2203.18,"endTime":2204.97,"body":"that's also okay in Kanban."},{"startTime":2205.12,"endTime":2208.59,"body":"Most teams that are switching"},{"startTime":2205.12,"endTime":2208.59,"body":"though could use a fixed cadence"},{"startTime":2208.59,"endTime":2210.28,"body":"and they already used to daily."},{"startTime":2210.56,"endTime":2211.38,"body":"So start there."},{"startTime":2211.53,"endTime":2214.04,"body":"But unlike scrum, where typically."},{"startTime":2214.19,"endTime":2217.29,"body":"Daily standups are in the morning so"},{"startTime":2214.19,"endTime":2217.29,"body":"that your scrum master has the rest of"},{"startTime":2217.3,"endTime":2219.14,"body":"the day to kind of try and unblock you."},{"startTime":2219.38,"endTime":2221.58,"body":"Although that's the team should"},{"startTime":2219.38,"endTime":2221.58,"body":"be doing that themselves."},{"startTime":2221.77,"endTime":2225.27,"body":"In Kanban, there's no reason why you can't"},{"startTime":2221.77,"endTime":2225.27,"body":"have it at noon or whenever you want."},{"startTime":2225.31,"endTime":2227.38,"body":"It's, it's when the team"},{"startTime":2225.31,"endTime":2227.38,"body":"wants, but they don't go away."},{"startTime":2227.39,"endTime":2227.97,"body":"That's the point."},{"startTime":2228.12,"endTime":2230.51,"body":"I'm interested in exploring trigger based."},{"startTime":2230.54,"endTime":2232.88,"body":"Cause I know if it's a pull based system."},{"startTime":2233.08,"endTime":2236.19,"body":"That makes a lot of sense to"},{"startTime":2233.08,"endTime":2236.19,"body":"build a trigger into the pull."},{"startTime":2236.34,"endTime":2239.38,"body":"So maybe you're not initiating a story"},{"startTime":2236.34,"endTime":2239.38,"body":"for the first time, but maybe you have"},{"startTime":2239.38,"endTime":2240.96,"body":"a bunch of subtasks under the story."},{"startTime":2240.96,"endTime":2242.06,"body":"So you're starting a new subtask."},{"startTime":2242.21,"endTime":2243.1,"body":"So it would make sense."},{"startTime":2243.39,"endTime":2244.56,"body":"You're pulling a subtask."},{"startTime":2244.56,"endTime":2248.85,"body":"It would make sense to trigger a stand"},{"startTime":2244.56,"endTime":2248.85,"body":"up Hey, I'm about to do this work on him."},{"startTime":2248.85,"endTime":2249.63,"body":"Here's my plan."},{"startTime":2249.78,"endTime":2250.87,"body":"You know, what do you guys think about it?"},{"startTime":2250.87,"endTime":2253.04,"body":"Or do you, does anybody"},{"startTime":2250.87,"endTime":2253.04,"body":"want to participate?"},{"startTime":2253.05,"endTime":2256.7,"body":"Does anybody want to watch me create"},{"startTime":2253.05,"endTime":2256.7,"body":"the new database table and schema"},{"startTime":2256.71,"endTime":2260.59,"body":"and The other thing is when you're"},{"startTime":2256.71,"endTime":2260.59,"body":"about to check in code or when your PR"},{"startTime":2260.6,"endTime":2262.34,"body":"goes up, Hey guys, I submitted a PR."},{"startTime":2262.37,"endTime":2263.29,"body":"Can we have a huddle?"},{"startTime":2263.44,"endTime":2265.55,"body":"so basically your PRs"},{"startTime":2263.44,"endTime":2265.55,"body":"are immediately reviewed."},{"startTime":2265.7,"endTime":2267.48,"body":"Right there on the spot."},{"startTime":2267.75,"endTime":2271.73,"body":"You know, I could really make a case"},{"startTime":2267.75,"endTime":2271.73,"body":"for, we talked about with Ed, we had"},{"startTime":2271.73,"endTime":2276.63,"body":"a podcast where I was really harshly"},{"startTime":2271.73,"endTime":2276.63,"body":"against asynchronous quote standups."},{"startTime":2276.78,"endTime":2279.73,"body":"But this is one of those cases where"},{"startTime":2276.78,"endTime":2279.73,"body":"your team mainly could be asynchronous"},{"startTime":2279.79,"endTime":2282.42,"body":"if they were, I mean, I guess if they"},{"startTime":2279.79,"endTime":2282.42,"body":"all wanted to work in their own dark"},{"startTime":2282.43,"endTime":2284.23,"body":"corners I'm still not sold Ed, sorry."},{"startTime":2284.38,"endTime":2287.48,"body":"Like if they wanted to work"},{"startTime":2284.38,"endTime":2287.48,"body":"separately and only wanted to come"},{"startTime":2287.48,"endTime":2289.36,"body":"together when there was a reason"},{"startTime":2287.48,"endTime":2289.36,"body":"to come together, that's fine."},{"startTime":2289.51,"endTime":2291.88,"body":"That I would, I think I could come around."},{"startTime":2291.88,"endTime":2294.82,"body":"I think it can be talked into that to"},{"startTime":2291.88,"endTime":2294.82,"body":"say, Hey, when a PR goes through, and"},{"startTime":2294.82,"endTime":2298.19,"body":"it's obvious, we need more than one"},{"startTime":2294.82,"endTime":2298.19,"body":"person to look at something when we"},{"startTime":2298.19,"endTime":2300.88,"body":"have to do a little micro planning to"},{"startTime":2298.19,"endTime":2300.88,"body":"do a little micro architecture, because"},{"startTime":2300.88,"endTime":2304.05,"body":"we started a subtask where we, maybe"},{"startTime":2300.88,"endTime":2304.05,"body":"we started a story for the first time."},{"startTime":2304.05,"endTime":2306.87,"body":"maybe we pick something up from the"},{"startTime":2304.05,"endTime":2306.87,"body":"backlog, even though it has been"},{"startTime":2306.87,"endTime":2309.56,"body":"planned or picking something up from"},{"startTime":2306.87,"endTime":2309.56,"body":"the backlog, because we finished"},{"startTime":2309.56,"endTime":2312.62,"body":"something, we're picking up something"},{"startTime":2309.56,"endTime":2312.62,"body":"and then bringing it into progress"},{"startTime":2312.62,"endTime":2314.28,"body":"for the first Trigger , let's."},{"startTime":2314.43,"endTime":2316.62,"body":"Pull the team into a,"},{"startTime":2314.43,"endTime":2316.62,"body":"into a room real quick."},{"startTime":2316.89,"endTime":2319.58,"body":"This is my plan for this I'm"},{"startTime":2316.89,"endTime":2319.58,"body":"going to do this, whatever."},{"startTime":2319.58,"endTime":2321.05,"body":"and you know, just quick setup."},{"startTime":2321.05,"endTime":2322.1,"body":"So that's interesting."},{"startTime":2322.13,"endTime":2323.92,"body":"I've not seen teams do it that way."},{"startTime":2324.07,"endTime":2326.54,"body":"Because  it seems a"},{"startTime":2324.07,"endTime":2326.54,"body":"little, it seems chaotic."},{"startTime":2326.59,"endTime":2329.99,"body":"Although remember when you're doing it"},{"startTime":2326.59,"endTime":2329.99,"body":"that way and you have these multiple"},{"startTime":2330.01,"endTime":2332.28,"body":"smaller trigger based sync ups."},{"startTime":2332.43,"endTime":2333.42,"body":"There's they're shorter."},{"startTime":2333.63,"endTime":2335.59,"body":"They don't, they last"},{"startTime":2333.63,"endTime":2335.59,"body":"as long as they last."},{"startTime":2335.59,"endTime":2339.94,"body":"You don't have to spend 15 minutes"},{"startTime":2335.59,"endTime":2339.94,"body":"or half an hour to most developers"},{"startTime":2339.94,"endTime":2342.43,"body":"and a lot of people who have learned"},{"startTime":2339.94,"endTime":2342.43,"body":"over the course of their career,"},{"startTime":2342.43,"endTime":2343.68,"body":"that they are allergic to meetings."},{"startTime":2343.68,"endTime":2345.04,"body":"They are trying to get less meetings."},{"startTime":2345.36,"endTime":2346.15,"body":"This sounds like."},{"startTime":2346.3,"endTime":2350.36,"body":"it sounds like more meetings and it"},{"startTime":2346.3,"endTime":2350.36,"body":"sounds like at a chaotic random interval"},{"startTime":2350.36,"endTime":2353.62,"body":"and schedule But I will tell you as"},{"startTime":2350.36,"endTime":2353.62,"body":"a product manager This is my entire"},{"startTime":2353.62,"endTime":2357.31,"body":"day when I hear something of value in"},{"startTime":2353.62,"endTime":2357.31,"body":"the organization that is happening I'm"},{"startTime":2357.31,"endTime":2360.98,"body":"ready to jump and show up When I think"},{"startTime":2357.31,"endTime":2360.98,"body":"something of value is going to happen."},{"startTime":2360.98,"endTime":2365.56,"body":"So I can tell where the value is in things"},{"startTime":2360.98,"endTime":2365.56,"body":"and I, luckily I have enough seniority"},{"startTime":2365.56,"endTime":2368.61,"body":"and experience where I don't show up to"},{"startTime":2365.56,"endTime":2368.61,"body":"things I don't think are valuable and"},{"startTime":2368.61,"endTime":2372.41,"body":"then I do make time to show up to the"},{"startTime":2368.61,"endTime":2372.41,"body":"things I think are valuable and I will"},{"startTime":2372.41,"endTime":2376.51,"body":"tell you the stuff that my team is working"},{"startTime":2372.41,"endTime":2376.51,"body":"on because we have planned it together."},{"startTime":2376.66,"endTime":2378.55,"body":"we have ranked the backlog together."},{"startTime":2378.7,"endTime":2382.05,"body":"I know that it's more valuable than"},{"startTime":2378.7,"endTime":2382.05,"body":"most of the things that are happening."},{"startTime":2382.36,"endTime":2386.44,"body":"So if my team says, Hey, we need to get"},{"startTime":2382.36,"endTime":2386.44,"body":"together and I need to show whatever"},{"startTime":2386.44,"endTime":2389.28,"body":"the new version of this, or this new"},{"startTime":2386.44,"endTime":2389.28,"body":"feature that we're planning or whatever."},{"startTime":2389.43,"endTime":2393.09,"body":"I'll make time if I can't be there"},{"startTime":2389.43,"endTime":2393.09,"body":"immediately, I will at least say, Hey, I'm"},{"startTime":2393.09,"endTime":2394.88,"body":"free in an hour and a half or whatever."},{"startTime":2394.9,"endTime":2395.05,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2395.2,"endTime":2395.43,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2395.43,"endTime":2397.95,"body":"So those that listening,"},{"startTime":2395.43,"endTime":2397.95,"body":"listen, we're talking about"},{"startTime":2397.95,"endTime":2400.04,"body":"these triggers using examples."},{"startTime":2400.26,"endTime":2403.69,"body":"It doesn't mean every story that's"},{"startTime":2400.26,"endTime":2403.69,"body":"pulled in, you need to huddle for, right?"},{"startTime":2403.69,"endTime":2406.95,"body":"Some stories are fairly"},{"startTime":2403.69,"endTime":2406.95,"body":"well defined and understood."},{"startTime":2407.09,"endTime":2410.02,"body":"You don't have to huddle for"},{"startTime":2407.09,"endTime":2410.02,"body":"that, but others you should."},{"startTime":2410.06,"endTime":2412.22,"body":"You shouldn't wait till the"},{"startTime":2410.06,"endTime":2412.22,"body":"next day or anything like that."},{"startTime":2412.37,"endTime":2417.31,"body":"There are other reasons to do this, which"},{"startTime":2412.37,"endTime":2417.31,"body":"is let's say backlog replenishment making"},{"startTime":2417.31,"endTime":2419.41,"body":"sure that there is enough of a backlog."},{"startTime":2419.56,"endTime":2422.45,"body":"And when that happens, You should"},{"startTime":2419.56,"endTime":2422.45,"body":"huddle because you have this"},{"startTime":2422.45,"endTime":2423.98,"body":"opportunity to ask questions, right?"},{"startTime":2424.32,"endTime":2425.84,"body":"So that's a good trigger, I find."},{"startTime":2425.87,"endTime":2429.13,"body":"let me tell you the story that"},{"startTime":2425.87,"endTime":2429.13,"body":"I, I, I told my development team"},{"startTime":2429.14,"endTime":2430.87,"body":"before when going to Kanban."},{"startTime":2430.9,"endTime":2435.37,"body":"the most successful Kanban team I"},{"startTime":2430.9,"endTime":2435.37,"body":"was ever on was three people total."},{"startTime":2435.52,"endTime":2439.19,"body":"And the way we knew that it was time"},{"startTime":2435.52,"endTime":2439.19,"body":"to do a backlog refinement was I"},{"startTime":2439.19,"endTime":2441.57,"body":"had a script that ran on my laptop."},{"startTime":2441.63,"endTime":2442.51,"body":"I think once a day."},{"startTime":2442.52,"endTime":2446.05,"body":"it looked at the number of items"},{"startTime":2442.52,"endTime":2446.05,"body":"in the backlog that were pointed."},{"startTime":2446.2,"endTime":2449.05,"body":"I don't remember if it was like above"},{"startTime":2446.2,"endTime":2449.05,"body":"a certain divider line or above."},{"startTime":2449.11,"endTime":2451.5,"body":"But basically it looked"},{"startTime":2449.11,"endTime":2451.5,"body":"at the top of the backlog."},{"startTime":2451.55,"endTime":2453.59,"body":"It counted the number of items"},{"startTime":2451.55,"endTime":2453.59,"body":"that were pointed and the number"},{"startTime":2453.59,"endTime":2454.63,"body":"of items that were unpointed."},{"startTime":2454.78,"endTime":2458.91,"body":"If the pointed number ever dropped below"},{"startTime":2454.78,"endTime":2458.91,"body":"a certain threshold, I think it was"},{"startTime":2459.03,"endTime":2462.06,"body":"eight for us, but I can't remember the"},{"startTime":2459.03,"endTime":2462.06,"body":"exact, it was a single digit number."},{"startTime":2462.11,"endTime":2466.55,"body":"If it ever dropped below that, then"},{"startTime":2462.11,"endTime":2466.55,"body":"it would send an email from my email."},{"startTime":2466.61,"endTime":2468.8,"body":"this is a Microsoft shop,"},{"startTime":2466.61,"endTime":2468.8,"body":"so you get the authenticate."},{"startTime":2468.84,"endTime":2470.33,"body":"I don't think we use Slack at that time."},{"startTime":2470.48,"endTime":2473.2,"body":"Anyway, I would send an"},{"startTime":2470.48,"endTime":2473.2,"body":"email through the script."},{"startTime":2473.545,"endTime":2477.245,"body":"And to everyone on the team to"},{"startTime":2473.545,"endTime":2477.245,"body":"say, Hey, the backlog item amount"},{"startTime":2477.255,"endTime":2479.085,"body":"is whatever the item number was."},{"startTime":2479.355,"endTime":2481.645,"body":"And it says we need, we need"},{"startTime":2479.355,"endTime":2481.645,"body":"to schedule a refinement."},{"startTime":2481.665,"endTime":2482.265,"body":"That's all it said."},{"startTime":2482.275,"endTime":2485.675,"body":"We need to schedule or find, and then"},{"startTime":2482.275,"endTime":2485.675,"body":"somebody on the team would take it amongst"},{"startTime":2485.675,"endTime":2487.465,"body":"themselves to schedule or refinement."},{"startTime":2487.475,"endTime":2490.175,"body":"Our, our, I remember our refinement"},{"startTime":2487.475,"endTime":2490.175,"body":"is usually late in the afternoon."},{"startTime":2490.175,"endTime":2491.145,"body":"Cause we all worked late."},{"startTime":2491.205,"endTime":2492.297,"body":"But that's what we would do."},{"startTime":2492.297,"endTime":2495.135,"body":"We'd schedule or find like we get to"},{"startTime":2492.297,"endTime":2495.135,"body":"get the, the trigger would go off."},{"startTime":2495.455,"endTime":2496.855,"body":"It'd be around lunchtime, we'd see it."},{"startTime":2496.875,"endTime":2500.445,"body":"And then by about three, four ish"},{"startTime":2496.875,"endTime":2500.445,"body":"o'clock, we would set something"},{"startTime":2500.455,"endTime":2502.555,"body":"up in the conference room and"},{"startTime":2500.455,"endTime":2502.555,"body":"do a backlog replenishment"},{"startTime":2502.705,"endTime":2504.185,"body":"and be done in 30, 45 minutes."},{"startTime":2504.185,"endTime":2507.485,"body":"And that's a really good illustration"},{"startTime":2504.185,"endTime":2507.485,"body":"of when to create a trigger and"},{"startTime":2507.485,"endTime":2508.955,"body":"the business reason to do that."},{"startTime":2509.215,"endTime":2510.585,"body":"There are lots of them, of course."},{"startTime":2510.585,"endTime":2514.145,"body":"Like let's say you have stuff"},{"startTime":2510.585,"endTime":2514.145,"body":"that's in your demo ready call."},{"startTime":2514.39,"endTime":2516.18,"body":"When you have to be very strict."},{"startTime":2516.18,"endTime":2518.24,"body":"If you have one, you could say,"},{"startTime":2516.18,"endTime":2518.24,"body":"let's go ahead and call him."},{"startTime":2518.39,"endTime":2520.17,"body":"But you know, if it's small"},{"startTime":2518.39,"endTime":2520.17,"body":"enough, you could say, well,"},{"startTime":2520.17,"endTime":2521.05,"body":"wait till we have another one."},{"startTime":2521.4,"endTime":2524.48,"body":"So when you have to, it could"},{"startTime":2521.4,"endTime":2524.48,"body":"trigger a meeting to get"},{"startTime":2524.49,"endTime":2525.87,"body":"stakeholders in and get feedback."},{"startTime":2526.02,"endTime":2528.15,"body":"It could trigger email distros, right?"},{"startTime":2528.36,"endTime":2531.25,"body":"Say that the stakeholders automatically"},{"startTime":2528.36,"endTime":2531.25,"body":"and say, we have two items."},{"startTime":2531.26,"endTime":2532.44,"body":"These are the two items, right?"},{"startTime":2532.59,"endTime":2534.62,"body":"Either attend or send a representative."},{"startTime":2534.95,"endTime":2537.25,"body":"So there's no end to this."},{"startTime":2537.37,"endTime":2538.68,"body":"Honestly, you certainly could do that."},{"startTime":2538.74,"endTime":2543.04,"body":"I also want to talk about Estimation"},{"startTime":2538.74,"endTime":2543.04,"body":"in the vein of backlog refinement,"},{"startTime":2543.35,"endTime":2546.96,"body":"if you're not going to have sprint"},{"startTime":2543.35,"endTime":2546.96,"body":"plannings anymore, and if, if like a"},{"startTime":2546.96,"endTime":2552.42,"body":"lot of people recommend your, you split"},{"startTime":2546.96,"endTime":2552.42,"body":"your backlog refinement in scrum between"},{"startTime":2552.74,"endTime":2556.74,"body":"the backlog refinement, where you just"},{"startTime":2552.74,"endTime":2556.74,"body":"quickly point the work or estimate"},{"startTime":2556.74,"endTime":2558.43,"body":"the work at a high level, and then."},{"startTime":2558.58,"endTime":2562.76,"body":"You get into sprint planning where you"},{"startTime":2558.58,"endTime":2562.76,"body":"actually go low low level planning details"},{"startTime":2563.0,"endTime":2566.34,"body":"They want those activities separate, but"},{"startTime":2563.0,"endTime":2566.34,"body":"if you don't have a sprint planning Like"},{"startTime":2566.38,"endTime":2570.22,"body":"does the estimation move to the backlog"},{"startTime":2566.38,"endTime":2570.22,"body":"replenishment or do you have a separate"},{"startTime":2570.22,"endTime":2572.17,"body":"session for that or does it is it?"},{"startTime":2572.32,"endTime":2574.39,"body":"Kind of like another ad hoc kind of deal."},{"startTime":2574.45,"endTime":2578.1,"body":"It can be any of those Yeah, my"},{"startTime":2574.45,"endTime":2578.1,"body":"favorite thing to do though is you're"},{"startTime":2578.15,"endTime":2581.06,"body":"already in a huddle when you're"},{"startTime":2578.15,"endTime":2581.06,"body":"doing backlog refinement, right?"},{"startTime":2581.16,"endTime":2583.91,"body":"Just save yourself a five minutes"},{"startTime":2581.16,"endTime":2583.91,"body":"at the end and point them out."},{"startTime":2584.06,"endTime":2584.67,"body":"Do that."},{"startTime":2584.96,"endTime":2589.14,"body":"But at the same time to do Kanban"},{"startTime":2584.96,"endTime":2589.14,"body":"well, you should really estimate"},{"startTime":2589.37,"endTime":2592.16,"body":"and carve out those stories such"},{"startTime":2589.37,"endTime":2592.16,"body":"that they're about the same size."},{"startTime":2592.31,"endTime":2592.97,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2593.23,"endTime":2595.82,"body":"That way you could use"},{"startTime":2593.23,"endTime":2595.82,"body":"item count as your measure."},{"startTime":2595.88,"endTime":2596.95,"body":"Instead of story points."},{"startTime":2596.95,"endTime":2598.09,"body":"Yeah, that I agree with."},{"startTime":2598.09,"endTime":2601.18,"body":"Again,  I think I said this on a podcast"},{"startTime":2598.09,"endTime":2601.18,"body":"before if I haven't, I apologize, but"},{"startTime":2601.21,"endTime":2605.445,"body":"fluid dynamics, items moving through a"},{"startTime":2601.21,"endTime":2605.445,"body":"pipe, Items moving through a pipe should"},{"startTime":2605.465,"endTime":2609.655,"body":"be small and of the same size, and that"},{"startTime":2605.465,"endTime":2609.655,"body":"will maximize the throughput of the"},{"startTime":2609.655,"endTime":2613.515,"body":"pipe because randomly different sizes,"},{"startTime":2609.655,"endTime":2613.515,"body":"some big, some small, and now you're"},{"startTime":2613.515,"endTime":2617.555,"body":"going to get blockages, sporadic flow,"},{"startTime":2613.515,"endTime":2617.555,"body":"And you will not have a good forecast."},{"startTime":2617.555,"endTime":2619.725,"body":"You'll never know when"},{"startTime":2617.555,"endTime":2619.725,"body":"your pipes run clean."},{"startTime":2619.875,"endTime":2621.965,"body":"And when they get blocked up,"},{"startTime":2619.875,"endTime":2621.965,"body":"it'll be all over the place."},{"startTime":2622.285,"endTime":2627.755,"body":"the nice side effect of having all of your"},{"startTime":2622.285,"endTime":2627.755,"body":"work items be relatively the same size,"},{"startTime":2627.785,"endTime":2629.735,"body":"even if they don't have"},{"startTime":2627.785,"endTime":2629.735,"body":"to be the exact same size"},{"startTime":2629.795,"endTime":2630.275,"body":"One."},{"startTime":2630.275,"endTime":2631.555,"body":"And now everything's going to be a two."},{"startTime":2631.555,"endTime":2634.815,"body":"Now, like if you just say, okay,"},{"startTime":2631.555,"endTime":2634.815,"body":"the only things that we can pick"},{"startTime":2634.845,"endTime":2639.395,"body":"in backlog refinement are threes"},{"startTime":2634.845,"endTime":2639.395,"body":"and fives or twos and threes,"},{"startTime":2639.585,"endTime":2641.665,"body":"whatever, like a range that's it."},{"startTime":2641.675,"endTime":2644.725,"body":"We're going to do refinement until"},{"startTime":2641.675,"endTime":2644.725,"body":"we get this story down to A two and"},{"startTime":2644.725,"endTime":2646.315,"body":"then we're done or a five or whatever."},{"startTime":2646.315,"endTime":2647.035,"body":"And then we're done."},{"startTime":2647.185,"endTime":2648.095,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":2648.095,"endTime":2650.305,"body":"I think when you think about the"},{"startTime":2648.095,"endTime":2650.305,"body":"difference between them, though, the"},{"startTime":2650.305,"endTime":2653.835,"body":"difference between one and a two is only"},{"startTime":2650.305,"endTime":2653.835,"body":"one, two and a three is still one, three"},{"startTime":2653.835,"endTime":2657.275,"body":"and a five, two, you're not that far"},{"startTime":2653.835,"endTime":2657.275,"body":"off, but if you have a lot of fives and"},{"startTime":2657.275,"endTime":2661.185,"body":"you're starting to see that flow kind"},{"startTime":2657.275,"endTime":2661.185,"body":"of ebb and tide a little, right, you"},{"startTime":2661.185,"endTime":2665.655,"body":"could start to say, well, those fives,"},{"startTime":2661.185,"endTime":2665.655,"body":"maybe we'll break them up into two twos"},{"startTime":2665.655,"endTime":2669.085,"body":"or whatever they don't have to add up to"},{"startTime":2665.655,"endTime":2669.085,"body":"five, but I mean, think about a team that"},{"startTime":2669.095,"endTime":2672.225,"body":"is  they have some kind of trigger that"},{"startTime":2669.095,"endTime":2672.225,"body":"lets them know, hey, You drop below the"},{"startTime":2672.225,"endTime":2674.065,"body":"threshold time to set up a refinement."},{"startTime":2674.405,"endTime":2679.205,"body":"Hey this item moved into the Ready to"},{"startTime":2674.405,"endTime":2679.205,"body":"deploy step time to notify the users,"},{"startTime":2679.415,"endTime":2683.205,"body":"you know whatever two items are in this"},{"startTime":2679.415,"endTime":2683.205,"body":"Yeah, it's time to set up a thingy or"},{"startTime":2683.205,"endTime":2686.851,"body":"whatever set up a review with the users"},{"startTime":2683.205,"endTime":2686.851,"body":"think about new people joining that team"},{"startTime":2686.981,"endTime":2690.541,"body":"That seems pretty easy to integrate into"},{"startTime":2686.981,"endTime":2690.541,"body":"like, Oh, these are the business rules."},{"startTime":2690.761,"endTime":2691.131,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2691.281,"endTime":2693.951,"body":"cause now you're applying business"},{"startTime":2691.281,"endTime":2693.951,"body":"rules to the columns and it's"},{"startTime":2693.961,"endTime":2696.621,"body":"very easy to communicate with"},{"startTime":2693.961,"endTime":2696.621,"body":"management well, what's your process?"},{"startTime":2696.621,"endTime":2699.121,"body":"Well, let me walk you through"},{"startTime":2696.621,"endTime":2699.121,"body":"the steps on our board."},{"startTime":2699.271,"endTime":2702.971,"body":"when this thing happens in this"},{"startTime":2699.271,"endTime":2702.971,"body":"column, we do whatever this"},{"startTime":2702.971,"endTime":2703.841,"body":"thing happens in this column."},{"startTime":2703.841,"endTime":2706.681,"body":"We do whatever I'm amazed that"},{"startTime":2703.841,"endTime":2706.681,"body":"again, going back to what I said"},{"startTime":2706.681,"endTime":2707.961,"body":"earlier on the podcast that I think."},{"startTime":2708.111,"endTime":2711.121,"body":"Most executive teams work in Kanban."},{"startTime":2711.271,"endTime":2714.271,"body":"They just don't have rules and"},{"startTime":2711.271,"endTime":2714.271,"body":"they don't have columns and"},{"startTime":2714.271,"endTime":2715.171,"body":"they don't write anything down."},{"startTime":2715.491,"endTime":2719.531,"body":"So they are super chaotic, but I don't"},{"startTime":2715.491,"endTime":2719.531,"body":"think it would be difficult for someone"},{"startTime":2719.531,"endTime":2723.171,"body":"to set that up and run it for them"},{"startTime":2719.531,"endTime":2723.171,"body":"and say like, this is your board now."},{"startTime":2723.321,"endTime":2725.811,"body":"And then you're working on, put it here,"},{"startTime":2723.321,"endTime":2725.811,"body":"have the discipline to put it here."},{"startTime":2725.961,"endTime":2726.841,"body":"You know Yeah."},{"startTime":2726.861,"endTime":2730.761,"body":"For your team level, you'd have"},{"startTime":2726.861,"endTime":2730.761,"body":"pretty good results doing it"},{"startTime":2730.761,"endTime":2732.701,"body":"that way for your executives."},{"startTime":2732.851,"endTime":2735.751,"body":"Yeah, I'm not so sure because they"},{"startTime":2732.851,"endTime":2735.751,"body":"will only do what they will do."},{"startTime":2736.051,"endTime":2739.521,"body":"Most of them will say I'll do that,"},{"startTime":2736.051,"endTime":2739.521,"body":"but they don't do it or they delegate"},{"startTime":2739.541,"endTime":2740.811,"body":"and the delegates don't do it."},{"startTime":2740.961,"endTime":2741.611,"body":"I understand."},{"startTime":2741.671,"endTime":2744.711,"body":"But I mean, I again, if I were"},{"startTime":2741.671,"endTime":2744.711,"body":"running the company, I would"},{"startTime":2744.711,"endTime":2745.801,"body":"want to see the thrashing."},{"startTime":2746.021,"endTime":2749.721,"body":"I would want to see the stuff moving from"},{"startTime":2746.021,"endTime":2749.721,"body":"backward, forward, all around the board."},{"startTime":2749.721,"endTime":2753.081,"body":"I would want to it could be data"},{"startTime":2749.721,"endTime":2753.081,"body":"driven then and talk to your executive."},{"startTime":2753.101,"endTime":2753.771,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":2753.861,"endTime":2755.631,"body":"Or at least, if you're measuring."},{"startTime":2755.781,"endTime":2758.351,"body":"These things, it's much easier"},{"startTime":2755.781,"endTime":2758.351,"body":"to communicate progress."},{"startTime":2758.401,"endTime":2759.741,"body":"your progress is all transparent."},{"startTime":2759.811,"endTime":2760.101,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2760.121,"endTime":2763.371,"body":"You don't need to do so much"},{"startTime":2760.121,"endTime":2763.371,"body":"work to communicate the progress."},{"startTime":2763.521,"endTime":2768.751,"body":"But also like the feedback loop that"},{"startTime":2763.521,"endTime":2768.751,"body":"normally like as a product manager, I"},{"startTime":2768.751,"endTime":2771.361,"body":"have to work to get feedback from users."},{"startTime":2771.511,"endTime":2774.267,"body":"if you have a captive audience, the"},{"startTime":2771.511,"endTime":2774.267,"body":"executive team, for example, your"},{"startTime":2774.267,"endTime":2776.187,"body":"CEO, you get the board, there it is."},{"startTime":2776.267,"endTime":2777.767,"body":"There's all my priorities"},{"startTime":2776.267,"endTime":2777.767,"body":"for the whole business."},{"startTime":2777.917,"endTime":2781.037,"body":"I've shortened the feedback loop"},{"startTime":2777.917,"endTime":2781.037,"body":"significantly to say where's this thing?"},{"startTime":2781.107,"endTime":2781.977,"body":"Why is it not moving?"},{"startTime":2782.117,"endTime":2783.227,"body":"What are the problems that we're having?"},{"startTime":2783.227,"endTime":2785.037,"body":"How come no one told me we"},{"startTime":2783.227,"endTime":2785.037,"body":"were having these problems?"},{"startTime":2785.187,"endTime":2787.347,"body":"How come no one told me we had"},{"startTime":2785.187,"endTime":2787.347,"body":"these blockers or whatever?"},{"startTime":2787.597,"endTime":2790.037,"body":"You know all that gets shortened."},{"startTime":2790.237,"endTime":2792.697,"body":"Like, I guess, forget the"},{"startTime":2790.237,"endTime":2792.697,"body":"executives for a second."},{"startTime":2793.907,"endTime":2795.137,"body":"That yacht has sailed."},{"startTime":2795.137,"endTime":2798.827,"body":"Wouldn't be a podcast if I"},{"startTime":2795.137,"endTime":2798.827,"body":"didn't get that one in there."},{"startTime":2799.257,"endTime":2800.167,"body":"That yacht has sunk."},{"startTime":2800.387,"endTime":2801.097,"body":"Yikes."},{"startTime":2801.597,"endTime":2804.217,"body":"So we don't, we're not going to"},{"startTime":2801.597,"endTime":2804.217,"body":"have sprint reviews anymore okay,"},{"startTime":2804.247,"endTime":2806.537,"body":"well, how are we going to get"},{"startTime":2804.247,"endTime":2806.537,"body":"feedback about what we're doing?"},{"startTime":2806.577,"endTime":2810.107,"body":"If we don't have dedicated time"},{"startTime":2806.577,"endTime":2810.107,"body":"on the calendar , the end users"},{"startTime":2810.107,"endTime":2813.037,"body":"know to show up or the people were"},{"startTime":2810.107,"endTime":2813.037,"body":"delivering software to know to show up."},{"startTime":2813.187,"endTime":2814.697,"body":"I think doing that process."},{"startTime":2814.847,"endTime":2817.467,"body":"Ad hoc seems stressful to most people."},{"startTime":2817.637,"endTime":2821.367,"body":"for that reason and other reasons,"},{"startTime":2817.637,"endTime":2821.367,"body":"combat doesn't say you shouldn't have"},{"startTime":2821.367,"endTime":2823.457,"body":"regularly cadenced feedback loops."},{"startTime":2823.507,"endTime":2824.397,"body":"It doesn't say that."},{"startTime":2824.547,"endTime":2826.637,"body":"So you could still do that, right?"},{"startTime":2826.637,"endTime":2829.247,"body":"So you could get feedback"},{"startTime":2826.637,"endTime":2829.247,"body":"quickly on smaller items."},{"startTime":2829.582,"endTime":2834.012,"body":"More frequently, I should say, And then"},{"startTime":2829.582,"endTime":2834.012,"body":"you could get a event on the calendar."},{"startTime":2834.012,"endTime":2837.872,"body":"Let's say every X days, month or"},{"startTime":2834.012,"endTime":2837.872,"body":"one month or whatever it is in your"},{"startTime":2837.872,"endTime":2842.922,"body":"context and get feedback on a larger"},{"startTime":2837.872,"endTime":2842.922,"body":"integrated chunk of functionality."},{"startTime":2843.162,"endTime":2846.242,"body":"There's nothing wrong with that, but you"},{"startTime":2843.162,"endTime":2846.242,"body":"didn't just go straight there, right?"},{"startTime":2846.272,"endTime":2849.852,"body":"You went there over these steps"},{"startTime":2846.272,"endTime":2849.852,"body":"so you could pivot along the way."},{"startTime":2850.002,"endTime":2850.982,"body":"I mean, you could do both."},{"startTime":2851.012,"endTime":2851.422,"body":"Why not?"},{"startTime":2851.572,"endTime":2852.502,"body":"And what about."},{"startTime":2852.797,"endTime":2855.857,"body":"The retrospective because you,"},{"startTime":2852.797,"endTime":2855.857,"body":"are you keeping that on the"},{"startTime":2855.857,"endTime":2857.037,"body":"calendar at regular intervals?"},{"startTime":2857.037,"endTime":2861.847,"body":"are you having some kind of pull"},{"startTime":2857.037,"endTime":2861.847,"body":"method to initiate a retrospective?"},{"startTime":2861.997,"endTime":2867.387,"body":"So a lot of teams that are working in"},{"startTime":2861.997,"endTime":2867.387,"body":"Kanban have a fixed cadence for retros."},{"startTime":2867.537,"endTime":2868.927,"body":"And again, that is fine."},{"startTime":2869.097,"endTime":2871.387,"body":"Kanban doesn't say not to do it that way."},{"startTime":2871.537,"endTime":2873.317,"body":"it doesn't say to do it at all."},{"startTime":2873.622,"endTime":2874.942,"body":"Right from what I know."},{"startTime":2874.972,"endTime":2877.392,"body":"So here's what I like to do best."},{"startTime":2877.542,"endTime":2882.132,"body":"Whenever a team member has something to"},{"startTime":2877.542,"endTime":2882.132,"body":"raise about the process, do it, right?"},{"startTime":2882.172,"endTime":2885.132,"body":"Don't wait until we"},{"startTime":2882.172,"endTime":2885.132,"body":"have a formal anything."},{"startTime":2885.202,"endTime":2890.062,"body":"And if you wait, then you may forget"},{"startTime":2885.202,"endTime":2890.062,"body":"about it or you're introducing that, that"},{"startTime":2890.062,"endTime":2892.042,"body":"delay again, that waste again, right?"},{"startTime":2892.192,"endTime":2896.662,"body":"So if you're communicating"},{"startTime":2892.192,"endTime":2896.662,"body":"through a channel of some kind,"},{"startTime":2896.732,"endTime":2899.662,"body":"teams or whatever, just say, Hey,"},{"startTime":2896.732,"endTime":2899.662,"body":"how about we stop doing this?"},{"startTime":2899.662,"endTime":2900.872,"body":"Or should we start doing this?"},{"startTime":2900.872,"endTime":2901.312,"body":"What do you think?"},{"startTime":2901.462,"endTime":2905.272,"body":"You know, one team that I was with"},{"startTime":2901.462,"endTime":2905.272,"body":"before, the way they handled this"},{"startTime":2905.422,"endTime":2908.092,"body":"was they had a, improvement board."},{"startTime":2908.202,"endTime":2912.302,"body":"Where the team members put things"},{"startTime":2908.202,"endTime":2912.302,"body":"that they wanted to resolve with"},{"startTime":2912.342,"endTime":2915.792,"body":"either the process or systemic"},{"startTime":2912.342,"endTime":2915.792,"body":"issues or corporate issues, whatever"},{"startTime":2915.792,"endTime":2919.152,"body":"they, they put the things on that"},{"startTime":2915.792,"endTime":2919.152,"body":"board and then it triggered a retro."},{"startTime":2919.152,"endTime":2919.192,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2919.392,"endTime":2920.642,"body":"It wasn't just one item."},{"startTime":2920.762,"endTime":2923.752,"body":"Cause I remember every time we went in,"},{"startTime":2920.762,"endTime":2923.752,"body":"there was like two or three items on the"},{"startTime":2923.752,"endTime":2926.122,"body":"board, so it was a low number to trigger."},{"startTime":2926.182,"endTime":2927.372,"body":"But it wasn't one."},{"startTime":2927.412,"endTime":2928.892,"body":"I, that's what I remember about that team."},{"startTime":2929.042,"endTime":2931.712,"body":"So we triggered it by"},{"startTime":2929.042,"endTime":2931.712,"body":"having a separate board."},{"startTime":2932.032,"endTime":2935.892,"body":"And having items pile up on that board,"},{"startTime":2932.032,"endTime":2935.892,"body":"having items be contributed to that"},{"startTime":2935.892,"endTime":2939.502,"body":"board and then at intervals you know,"},{"startTime":2935.892,"endTime":2939.502,"body":"that's as good a way of doing it as any."},{"startTime":2939.502,"endTime":2943.222,"body":"I mean it's warranted when the"},{"startTime":2939.502,"endTime":2943.222,"body":"threshold is met, these are all low"},{"startTime":2943.222,"endTime":2944.852,"body":"thresholds at the end of the day, right?"},{"startTime":2944.862,"endTime":2945.752,"body":"Depends on the team."},{"startTime":2945.902,"endTime":2950.052,"body":"I wonder if you, if you're in a"},{"startTime":2945.902,"endTime":2950.052,"body":"program that's scaled or if you, again,"},{"startTime":2950.052,"endTime":2952.232,"body":"going back to my, I don't know why I"},{"startTime":2950.052,"endTime":2952.232,"body":"keep harping on leadership so much."},{"startTime":2952.232,"endTime":2955.632,"body":"You have like leadership, I've"},{"startTime":2952.232,"endTime":2955.632,"body":"been part of a couple of program"},{"startTime":2955.652,"endTime":2959.092,"body":"level retros where like, it's like"},{"startTime":2955.652,"endTime":2959.092,"body":"five, six, seven teams together."},{"startTime":2959.242,"endTime":2961.722,"body":"And retros at that level freaked me out."},{"startTime":2961.872,"endTime":2964.982,"body":"It feels like, well the more teams"},{"startTime":2961.872,"endTime":2964.982,"body":"that are involved, the less that"},{"startTime":2964.982,"endTime":2968.292,"body":"people feel like they can make a"},{"startTime":2964.982,"endTime":2968.292,"body":"difference in the process or change"},{"startTime":2968.292,"endTime":2969.932,"body":"the process for that many teams."},{"startTime":2970.282,"endTime":2973.092,"body":"if you're not using scale framework"},{"startTime":2970.282,"endTime":2973.092,"body":"and it's just a bunch of teams that"},{"startTime":2973.092,"endTime":2976.362,"body":"are working together, this could be"},{"startTime":2973.092,"endTime":2976.362,"body":"something to help you could have a"},{"startTime":2976.362,"endTime":2978.112,"body":"Kanban process to trigger retros."},{"startTime":2978.262,"endTime":2979.352,"body":"Absolutely agree with that."},{"startTime":2979.532,"endTime":2982.662,"body":"And I think if you're using a"},{"startTime":2979.532,"endTime":2982.662,"body":"specific scaled framework then you"},{"startTime":2982.662,"endTime":2986.642,"body":"have somebody who wears a hat and"},{"startTime":2982.662,"endTime":2986.642,"body":"is responsible for, Conducting or"},{"startTime":2986.642,"endTime":2988.992,"body":"facilitating a scaled retrospective."},{"startTime":2989.142,"endTime":2992.202,"body":"It is very tricky when you have"},{"startTime":2989.142,"endTime":2992.202,"body":"so many teams to your point,"},{"startTime":2992.212,"endTime":2993.632,"body":"people don't contribute, right?"},{"startTime":2993.952,"endTime":2995.352,"body":"I find that that's true."},{"startTime":2995.382,"endTime":2998.162,"body":"Even on things like the"},{"startTime":2995.382,"endTime":2998.162,"body":"confidence vote, people don't"},{"startTime":2998.162,"endTime":2999.542,"body":"contribute because they're afraid."},{"startTime":2999.602,"endTime":3002.872,"body":"You know, I really think that my"},{"startTime":2999.602,"endTime":3002.872,"body":"confidence is not maybe the, not the"},{"startTime":3002.872,"endTime":3004.242,"body":"lowest on a scale of one to five."},{"startTime":3004.242,"endTime":3005.482,"body":"It's not a one, but it's a two."},{"startTime":3005.482,"endTime":3009.412,"body":"A lot of this is around how you"},{"startTime":3005.482,"endTime":3009.412,"body":"reduce the friction right for"},{"startTime":3009.412,"endTime":3010.792,"body":"your team members to contribute."},{"startTime":3010.942,"endTime":3014.122,"body":"And there again, this is regardless"},{"startTime":3010.942,"endTime":3014.122,"body":"of whether you're doing scrum or"},{"startTime":3014.182,"endTime":3016.402,"body":"combat, this transcends all of that."},{"startTime":3016.552,"endTime":3020.912,"body":"And it comes facilitation skills"},{"startTime":3016.552,"endTime":3020.912,"body":"off the person doing this."},{"startTime":3021.062,"endTime":3024.622,"body":"So in a scaled environment"},{"startTime":3021.062,"endTime":3024.622,"body":"where you're using, Kanban."},{"startTime":3024.632,"endTime":3026.962,"body":"You have multiple teams, let's"},{"startTime":3024.632,"endTime":3026.962,"body":"say, that are doing Kanban."},{"startTime":3027.112,"endTime":3031.222,"body":"Irretrospective may or may not even"},{"startTime":3027.112,"endTime":3031.222,"body":"be needed at that level because you're"},{"startTime":3031.242,"endTime":3033.252,"body":"doing it at the lower level, right?"},{"startTime":3033.332,"endTime":3036.232,"body":"So things are already being"},{"startTime":3033.332,"endTime":3036.232,"body":"sorted out at a lower level."},{"startTime":3036.382,"endTime":3039.982,"body":"It's sort of like having smaller pipes"},{"startTime":3036.382,"endTime":3039.982,"body":"come together into a large pipe, right?"},{"startTime":3040.232,"endTime":3040.572,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3040.812,"endTime":3044.732,"body":"if you have smooth flow coming in, your"},{"startTime":3040.812,"endTime":3044.732,"body":"large pipe already has more capacity,"},{"startTime":3044.882,"endTime":3048.442,"body":"it's not going to constrain, but if it's"},{"startTime":3044.882,"endTime":3048.442,"body":"constrained, you have some big issues."},{"startTime":3048.582,"endTime":3048.802,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3048.952,"endTime":3049.872,"body":"Let's just leave it at there."},{"startTime":3050.172,"endTime":3053.662,"body":"So obviously when you're moving to it"},{"startTime":3050.172,"endTime":3053.662,"body":"for the first time, you would want to"},{"startTime":3053.662,"endTime":3057.482,"body":"build in these on a scheduled cadence"},{"startTime":3053.662,"endTime":3057.482,"body":"because you're moving to it for the,"},{"startTime":3057.542,"endTime":3060.832,"body":"at the beginning of podcast where I'm"},{"startTime":3057.542,"endTime":3060.832,"body":"like, well, my team is transitioning from"},{"startTime":3060.882,"endTime":3062.682,"body":"whatever we were doing before to combine."},{"startTime":3062.832,"endTime":3065.972,"body":"We probably want to have some"},{"startTime":3062.832,"endTime":3065.972,"body":"processes still scheduled."},{"startTime":3065.972,"endTime":3072.222,"body":"Some processes go to just in time or"},{"startTime":3065.972,"endTime":3072.222,"body":"pull the regularly reviewing our, policy"},{"startTime":3072.222,"endTime":3075.742,"body":"that you were talking about, what our"},{"startTime":3072.222,"endTime":3075.742,"body":"policies are per column and overall"},{"startTime":3075.982,"endTime":3079.412,"body":"and what our whip limits are, all the"},{"startTime":3075.982,"endTime":3079.412,"body":"things that we've decided basically."},{"startTime":3079.562,"endTime":3084.362,"body":"Is that part of a normal retro or would"},{"startTime":3079.562,"endTime":3084.362,"body":"you want to have like, Quarterly kind"},{"startTime":3084.362,"endTime":3088.242,"body":"of reviews of what we're doing cause"},{"startTime":3084.362,"endTime":3088.242,"body":"people might not raise any concerns"},{"startTime":3088.242,"endTime":3091.292,"body":"about it, but you might just want to"},{"startTime":3088.242,"endTime":3091.292,"body":"talk about like, Hey guys, is our whip"},{"startTime":3091.292,"endTime":3093.252,"body":"limit of seven still working for us?"},{"startTime":3093.252,"endTime":3094.392,"body":"Like you know, how do you feel?"},{"startTime":3094.392,"endTime":3095.282,"body":"Do you feel stressed?"},{"startTime":3095.282,"endTime":3097.852,"body":"What those are all part"},{"startTime":3095.282,"endTime":3097.852,"body":"of the reflection for me."},{"startTime":3097.852,"endTime":3098.132,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3098.172,"endTime":3098.942,"body":"Part of the retro."},{"startTime":3099.212,"endTime":3100.652,"body":"So are they on a cadence?"},{"startTime":3100.817,"endTime":3101.747,"body":"Well, I worry about that."},{"startTime":3101.767,"endTime":3105.427,"body":"I worry about those kind of open ended,"},{"startTime":3101.767,"endTime":3105.427,"body":"sometimes in a retro, you will eight"},{"startTime":3105.477,"endTime":3110.057,"body":"months this is not a royal you, I guess,"},{"startTime":3105.477,"endTime":3110.057,"body":"but sometimes in a retro, a trained"},{"startTime":3110.107,"endTime":3112.847,"body":"facilitator who can sense things."},{"startTime":3112.997,"endTime":3116.587,"body":"You know or especially if they're"},{"startTime":3112.997,"endTime":3116.587,"body":"involved in the work They will bring"},{"startTime":3116.587,"endTime":3120.627,"body":"up and ask open ended questions which"},{"startTime":3116.587,"endTime":3120.627,"body":"will prompt things that the team members"},{"startTime":3120.777,"endTime":3124.517,"body":"would not have put a card on a board"},{"startTime":3120.777,"endTime":3124.517,"body":"to say like that the team member that"},{"startTime":3124.547,"endTime":3127.767,"body":"I was talking about before the three"},{"startTime":3124.547,"endTime":3127.767,"body":"people that work on that team We all"},{"startTime":3127.767,"endTime":3130.792,"body":"knew each other very well There was"},{"startTime":3127.767,"endTime":3130.792,"body":"no conflict between team members."},{"startTime":3130.802,"endTime":3133.742,"body":"We could say anything, direct feedback"},{"startTime":3130.802,"endTime":3133.742,"body":"was fine between people because we've"},{"startTime":3133.752,"endTime":3134.952,"body":"been working together a long time."},{"startTime":3135.102,"endTime":3137.762,"body":"However there are other teams"},{"startTime":3135.102,"endTime":3137.762,"body":"that are not that way at all."},{"startTime":3138.052,"endTime":3140.622,"body":"So a team member is never going"},{"startTime":3138.052,"endTime":3140.622,"body":"to put a card on a board that"},{"startTime":3140.622,"endTime":3144.102,"body":"says like, hey, you're working"},{"startTime":3140.622,"endTime":3144.102,"body":"us into an early grave over here."},{"startTime":3144.352,"endTime":3145.932,"body":"Like, we need to slow this pace down."},{"startTime":3146.142,"endTime":3149.057,"body":"Nobody's going to complain because"},{"startTime":3146.142,"endTime":3149.057,"body":"then they'll be labeled a Complainer"},{"startTime":3149.057,"endTime":3152.022,"body":"or a problem or whatever, not a"},{"startTime":3149.057,"endTime":3152.022,"body":"team player Yeah, that's right."},{"startTime":3152.242,"endTime":3156.987,"body":"Not a team player, but a facilitator who"},{"startTime":3152.242,"endTime":3156.987,"body":"understands who's done it and been there."},{"startTime":3157.227,"endTime":3159.177,"body":"They can draw out those kind of questions."},{"startTime":3159.177,"endTime":3161.187,"body":"So I'm worried about if we move to this."},{"startTime":3161.382,"endTime":3164.112,"body":"Hey, you put a card on the thing and"},{"startTime":3161.382,"endTime":3164.112,"body":"when there's no cards in the thing,"},{"startTime":3164.112,"endTime":3165.442,"body":"we're not just not going to meet."},{"startTime":3165.762,"endTime":3168.192,"body":"I'm worried that we're missing"},{"startTime":3165.762,"endTime":3168.192,"body":"out on something moving"},{"startTime":3168.192,"endTime":3168.872,"body":"your philosophy like that."},{"startTime":3168.892,"endTime":3172.632,"body":"You're legitimately worried because"},{"startTime":3168.892,"endTime":3172.632,"body":"that gets overlooked in the day to day."},{"startTime":3172.922,"endTime":3174.162,"body":"People are just working, right?"},{"startTime":3174.162,"endTime":3177.162,"body":"So in the day to day, yeah, you"},{"startTime":3174.162,"endTime":3177.162,"body":"don't even think to put a card"},{"startTime":3177.162,"endTime":3178.552,"body":"on there, but it's a real issue."},{"startTime":3178.622,"endTime":3182.592,"body":"One thing I found extremely useful"},{"startTime":3178.622,"endTime":3182.592,"body":"here, It's to bring in somebody"},{"startTime":3182.642,"endTime":3184.612,"body":"to facilitate just a discussion."},{"startTime":3184.672,"endTime":3187.632,"body":"It is really a retrospective,"},{"startTime":3184.672,"endTime":3187.632,"body":"but it's not looking back at the"},{"startTime":3187.632,"endTime":3189.532,"body":"last X number days or sprint."},{"startTime":3189.752,"endTime":3191.302,"body":"It's just generally here we are."},{"startTime":3191.452,"endTime":3192.752,"body":"We've been working in this way."},{"startTime":3192.902,"endTime":3193.802,"body":"What's working for us?"},{"startTime":3193.802,"endTime":3195.342,"body":"What's not working for us, right?"},{"startTime":3195.492,"endTime":3197.822,"body":"And a skilled facilitator"},{"startTime":3195.492,"endTime":3197.822,"body":"can bring that out."},{"startTime":3197.972,"endTime":3200.632,"body":"free form discussion"},{"startTime":3197.972,"endTime":3200.632,"body":"is by far the best way."},{"startTime":3200.782,"endTime":3204.072,"body":"If you want to anonymize things, you"},{"startTime":3200.782,"endTime":3204.072,"body":"could use tools like mural or Miro."},{"startTime":3204.322,"endTime":3204.962,"body":"That's okay."},{"startTime":3205.012,"endTime":3205.242,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3205.262,"endTime":3207.762,"body":"How it had people's names on"},{"startTime":3205.262,"endTime":3207.762,"body":"the cursors and all of that."},{"startTime":3207.912,"endTime":3208.132,"body":"But."},{"startTime":3208.282,"endTime":3211.842,"body":"That facilitator is not normally"},{"startTime":3208.282,"endTime":3211.842,"body":"part of your team, so they have"},{"startTime":3211.842,"endTime":3213.582,"body":"no vested interest or any history."},{"startTime":3213.722,"endTime":3216.752,"body":"All they're doing is really"},{"startTime":3213.722,"endTime":3216.752,"body":"acting as a catalyst to really"},{"startTime":3216.762,"endTime":3218.722,"body":"jumpstart conversations, right?"},{"startTime":3218.872,"endTime":3222.382,"body":"But then what you need is somebody to"},{"startTime":3218.872,"endTime":3222.382,"body":"capture the details and then making"},{"startTime":3222.382,"endTime":3223.672,"body":"sure that these things are action."},{"startTime":3223.822,"endTime":3224.852,"body":"I got AI for that."},{"startTime":3224.902,"endTime":3225.362,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":3225.512,"endTime":3227.592,"body":"I got an actual, an"},{"startTime":3225.512,"endTime":3227.592,"body":"actual use case for AI."},{"startTime":3227.592,"endTime":3232.342,"body":"AI will be soon monitoring your, your"},{"startTime":3227.592,"endTime":3232.342,"body":"compliance to Kanban and smacking you"},{"startTime":3232.372,"endTime":3234.132,"body":"when you, when you go away from that."},{"startTime":3234.192,"endTime":3236.982,"body":"All I need, I need it to get"},{"startTime":3234.192,"endTime":3236.982,"body":"me my drinks and take, take my"},{"startTime":3236.982,"endTime":3238.722,"body":"notes and schedule my meetings."},{"startTime":3238.722,"endTime":3240.182,"body":"This is what they can already do."},{"startTime":3240.182,"endTime":3241.172,"body":"Two of those three things."},{"startTime":3241.172,"endTime":3242.177,"body":"Pay attention to Silicon Valley."},{"startTime":3242.177,"endTime":3243.842,"body":"This is what I actually need to do."},{"startTime":3243.992,"endTime":3244.282,"body":"okay."},{"startTime":3244.282,"endTime":3245.552,"body":"So that's interesting."},{"startTime":3245.602,"endTime":3247.272,"body":"I almost want to explore."},{"startTime":3247.292,"endTime":3254.542,"body":"An option where I've got this retro board"},{"startTime":3247.292,"endTime":3254.542,"body":"that triggers, but I want to propose, why"},{"startTime":3254.542,"endTime":3258.382,"body":"don't we let anybody put it like all the,"},{"startTime":3254.542,"endTime":3258.382,"body":"all the, all the items are anonymous on"},{"startTime":3258.382,"endTime":3261.712,"body":"there anyway, why don't we let anybody"},{"startTime":3258.382,"endTime":3261.712,"body":"put things on that board like because"},{"startTime":3261.712,"endTime":3266.457,"body":"you, you, you, Your people that are on"},{"startTime":3261.712,"endTime":3266.457,"body":"the team might be having one on ones"},{"startTime":3266.457,"endTime":3268.377,"body":"with managers or coaches or whatever."},{"startTime":3268.647,"endTime":3272.137,"body":"And maybe the people might not be bold"},{"startTime":3268.647,"endTime":3272.137,"body":"enough to put something on the board"},{"startTime":3272.137,"endTime":3275.417,"body":"that they're aggravated with, , maybe the"},{"startTime":3272.137,"endTime":3275.417,"body":"coach can put something on the board or"},{"startTime":3275.417,"endTime":3278.817,"body":"maybe their manager or whatever, based"},{"startTime":3275.417,"endTime":3278.817,"body":"on their sessions can put something"},{"startTime":3278.817,"endTime":3282.337,"body":"on the board to say, Hey, you might"},{"startTime":3278.817,"endTime":3282.337,"body":"your team, I mean, it can't be like"},{"startTime":3282.497,"endTime":3284.527,"body":"one sentence might not be good enough."},{"startTime":3284.537,"endTime":3287.827,"body":"If it's somebody who doesn't work on the"},{"startTime":3284.537,"endTime":3287.827,"body":"team to explain the context, but I don't"},{"startTime":3287.827,"endTime":3289.197,"body":"know if that would be helpful or not."},{"startTime":3289.477,"endTime":3291.327,"body":"I certainly think it would be helpful."},{"startTime":3291.347,"endTime":3294.627,"body":"I think you also need to be ready"},{"startTime":3291.347,"endTime":3294.627,"body":"with some guardrails around that."},{"startTime":3294.847,"endTime":3298.077,"body":"So if you extend that out to your"},{"startTime":3294.847,"endTime":3298.077,"body":"stakeholders, let's say, right, you"},{"startTime":3298.097,"endTime":3299.497,"body":"get valuable feedback from them."},{"startTime":3299.557,"endTime":3301.067,"body":"You know, you're not spending long enough."},{"startTime":3301.127,"endTime":3302.682,"body":"Or when you demo, I'm not able to see it."},{"startTime":3302.762,"endTime":3306.882,"body":"See the screen very well, it's too"},{"startTime":3302.762,"endTime":3306.882,"body":"small or whatever, little things."},{"startTime":3306.952,"endTime":3309.882,"body":"It doesn't matter where they're"},{"startTime":3306.952,"endTime":3309.882,"body":"not, they're not going to speak up"},{"startTime":3309.892,"endTime":3314.492,"body":"necessarily during the actual demo,"},{"startTime":3309.892,"endTime":3314.492,"body":"perhaps change management, communication,"},{"startTime":3314.502,"endTime":3315.952,"body":"those sorts of things, right?"},{"startTime":3316.102,"endTime":3320.122,"body":"When they get that, assuming they get"},{"startTime":3316.102,"endTime":3320.122,"body":"it now, it may not be to their liking."},{"startTime":3320.162,"endTime":3322.062,"body":"It may not be to the"},{"startTime":3320.162,"endTime":3322.062,"body":"level where they want it."},{"startTime":3322.302,"endTime":3325.292,"body":"But they get what they get, and they're"},{"startTime":3322.302,"endTime":3325.292,"body":"not necessarily content with that."},{"startTime":3325.632,"endTime":3327.782,"body":"So that's an example of a"},{"startTime":3325.632,"endTime":3327.782,"body":"way you can bring them in and"},{"startTime":3327.782,"endTime":3329.102,"body":"say, put that on this board."},{"startTime":3329.252,"endTime":3333.552,"body":"Just be careful with stakeholders"},{"startTime":3329.252,"endTime":3333.552,"body":"that it doesn't turn into a promise."},{"startTime":3333.702,"endTime":3333.922,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3333.952,"endTime":3336.112,"body":"If you put something here,"},{"startTime":3333.952,"endTime":3336.112,"body":"you're going to get that solved."},{"startTime":3336.122,"endTime":3337.032,"body":"No, we're going to look at it."},{"startTime":3337.182,"endTime":3338.352,"body":"And we'll see what we can do."},{"startTime":3338.632,"endTime":3341.912,"body":"Sometimes the asks are not"},{"startTime":3338.632,"endTime":3341.912,"body":"that easy or even relevant."},{"startTime":3342.042,"endTime":3344.522,"body":"Sometimes they're not relevant,"},{"startTime":3342.042,"endTime":3344.522,"body":"but yeah, extending it out to"},{"startTime":3344.522,"endTime":3345.742,"body":"stakeholders, I'm all for it."},{"startTime":3345.892,"endTime":3346.832,"body":"Just anonymize it."},{"startTime":3346.852,"endTime":3349.202,"body":"So they feel safe to contribute as well."},{"startTime":3349.352,"endTime":3351.372,"body":"that's an interesting one that I"},{"startTime":3349.352,"endTime":3351.372,"body":"don't hear people talking about."},{"startTime":3351.422,"endTime":3355.362,"body":"So yeah, just on that last subject"},{"startTime":3351.422,"endTime":3355.362,"body":"about getting feedback from"},{"startTime":3355.512,"endTime":3358.002,"body":"stakeholders, et cetera, certain"},{"startTime":3355.512,"endTime":3358.002,"body":"tools allow you to do that."},{"startTime":3358.152,"endTime":3361.172,"body":"you can just have any kind of"},{"startTime":3358.152,"endTime":3361.172,"body":"collaboration tool open to them, But"},{"startTime":3361.302,"endTime":3365.232,"body":"other tools do a better job of it and"},{"startTime":3361.302,"endTime":3365.232,"body":"can drive toward more context, like aha"},{"startTime":3365.242,"endTime":3369.822,"body":"has, for example, an ideas portal Web"},{"startTime":3365.242,"endTime":3369.822,"body":"pages could be your retrospective items."},{"startTime":3369.922,"endTime":3370.692,"body":"You can call them that."},{"startTime":3370.722,"endTime":3373.862,"body":"You can call them improvement,"},{"startTime":3370.722,"endTime":3373.862,"body":"CI, continuous improvement, or"},{"startTime":3373.972,"endTime":3376.142,"body":"team improvement, processing,"},{"startTime":3373.972,"endTime":3376.142,"body":"whatever you want to call it."},{"startTime":3376.172,"endTime":3379.302,"body":"Just don't call it a retro because"},{"startTime":3376.172,"endTime":3379.302,"body":"they don't understand that."},{"startTime":3379.452,"endTime":3382.592,"body":"We were gonna go back and we're gonna go"},{"startTime":3379.452,"endTime":3382.592,"body":"back and point out the difference between"},{"startTime":3382.592,"endTime":3387.812,"body":"Kanban and Andon Oh, yeah, and on you"},{"startTime":3382.592,"endTime":3387.812,"body":"actually mentioned something that was that"},{"startTime":3387.812,"endTime":3391.552,"body":"was interesting when you said, you know"},{"startTime":3387.812,"endTime":3391.552,"body":"The car turns red if it's blocked, right?"},{"startTime":3391.702,"endTime":3395.902,"body":"that's an example of and on and"},{"startTime":3391.702,"endTime":3395.902,"body":"on basically is just a signal"},{"startTime":3395.912,"endTime":3398.322,"body":"or a visual Alert, if you will."},{"startTime":3398.422,"endTime":3401.622,"body":"So it's, it says the purpose"},{"startTime":3398.422,"endTime":3401.622,"body":"is a quality control and real"},{"startTime":3401.622,"endTime":3402.952,"body":"time communication system."},{"startTime":3403.102,"endTime":3403.612,"body":"That's what it says."},{"startTime":3403.612,"endTime":3406.982,"body":"The purposes and the function is an"},{"startTime":3403.612,"endTime":3406.982,"body":"alerts management and workers to problems"},{"startTime":3407.182,"endTime":3411.112,"body":"in the production line with visual"},{"startTime":3407.182,"endTime":3411.112,"body":"representations, such as lights, digital"},{"startTime":3411.112,"endTime":3414.922,"body":"displays, whatever turning card, red,"},{"startTime":3411.112,"endTime":3414.922,"body":"whatever it is, some kind of display."},{"startTime":3415.072,"endTime":3417.752,"body":"And the goal is to quickly"},{"startTime":3415.072,"endTime":3417.752,"body":"identify and address production"},{"startTime":3417.752,"endTime":3420.062,"body":"problems to minimize downtime."},{"startTime":3420.212,"endTime":3422.892,"body":"and I guess you could,"},{"startTime":3420.212,"endTime":3422.892,"body":"if you're wrapping that."},{"startTime":3423.042,"endTime":3429.502,"body":"Inside of Kanban, also to restore your"},{"startTime":3423.042,"endTime":3429.502,"body":"flow when there is issues, Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":3429.692,"endTime":3434.242,"body":"And that idea of turning a card red for a"},{"startTime":3429.692,"endTime":3434.242,"body":"blocker is a perfect illustration of that."},{"startTime":3434.372,"endTime":3434.612,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3434.762,"endTime":3438.172,"body":"So it's a, it's a quality control, real"},{"startTime":3434.762,"endTime":3438.172,"body":"time communication system as opposed"},{"startTime":3438.172,"endTime":3441.222,"body":"to Kanban, which is an inventory"},{"startTime":3438.172,"endTime":3441.222,"body":"and production control system."},{"startTime":3441.232,"endTime":3441.432,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3441.582,"endTime":3441.782,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3441.982,"endTime":3442.672,"body":"All right, well."},{"startTime":3442.822,"endTime":3445.832,"body":"So you, you're basically going to"},{"startTime":3442.822,"endTime":3445.832,"body":"adopt Kanban with your team now?"},{"startTime":3446.122,"endTime":3446.572,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":3446.612,"endTime":3450.162,"body":"I'm going to adopt it with all my teams,"},{"startTime":3446.612,"endTime":3450.162,"body":"starting with the management teams,"},{"startTime":3450.162,"endTime":3452.982,"body":"because they're the ones that need it"},{"startTime":3450.162,"endTime":3452.982,"body":"the most or Jesus one or the other."},{"startTime":3452.992,"endTime":3453.852,"body":"They need something."},{"startTime":3454.732,"endTime":3456.402,"body":"They, they need Roto Rooter."},{"startTime":3456.852,"endTime":3459.102,"body":". It'd be nice to have a different"},{"startTime":3456.852,"endTime":3459.102,"body":"version of this podcast."},{"startTime":3459.252,"endTime":3464.152,"body":"Where we implement Kanban for leadership,"},{"startTime":3459.252,"endTime":3464.152,"body":"like what would you need to do?"},{"startTime":3464.362,"endTime":3469.482,"body":"So today is all about doing it for at the"},{"startTime":3464.362,"endTime":3469.482,"body":"team level but I'd like to It's probably"},{"startTime":3469.482,"endTime":3471.042,"body":"not a different podcast to be honest."},{"startTime":3471.092,"endTime":3473.892,"body":"The difference is you almost have"},{"startTime":3471.092,"endTime":3473.892,"body":"to convince the CEO or whatever"},{"startTime":3473.902,"endTime":3476.592,"body":"director department, if it's you're"},{"startTime":3473.902,"endTime":3476.592,"body":"doing departmental level, but you"},{"startTime":3476.592,"endTime":3480.222,"body":"have to convince the person at the"},{"startTime":3476.592,"endTime":3480.222,"body":"top that this is important because"},{"startTime":3480.382,"endTime":3484.082,"body":"now you, you're, you've got to hold"},{"startTime":3480.382,"endTime":3484.082,"body":"people accountable to say, Hey, your"},{"startTime":3484.082,"endTime":3485.482,"body":"work is not updated on this board."},{"startTime":3485.632,"endTime":3487.702,"body":"You know, someone's got to go"},{"startTime":3485.632,"endTime":3487.702,"body":"through the process of setting up."},{"startTime":3487.712,"endTime":3488.802,"body":"we can delegate that."},{"startTime":3488.952,"endTime":3489.392,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3489.542,"endTime":3492.812,"body":"But then it needs to be kept up to"},{"startTime":3489.542,"endTime":3492.812,"body":"date cause this is our single point"},{"startTime":3492.812,"endTime":3495.992,"body":"of truth that we're going to look"},{"startTime":3492.812,"endTime":3495.992,"body":"at even if it's fed many Kanban."},{"startTime":3496.132,"endTime":3498.232,"body":"Systems can be fed by your ALM tools."},{"startTime":3498.242,"endTime":3501.952,"body":"So as far as the development teams going"},{"startTime":3498.242,"endTime":3501.952,"body":"are concerned, it can be kept up to"},{"startTime":3501.952,"endTime":3505.802,"body":"date, no problem, very little effort to"},{"startTime":3501.952,"endTime":3505.802,"body":"keep it up to date, but a lot of stuff"},{"startTime":3505.802,"endTime":3509.942,"body":"that your leadership team is doing is"},{"startTime":3505.802,"endTime":3509.942,"body":"stretched out across a whole bunch of"},{"startTime":3509.942,"endTime":3511.772,"body":"systems and now you've got problems."},{"startTime":3511.872,"endTime":3514.382,"body":"let me tell you one problem that"},{"startTime":3511.872,"endTime":3514.382,"body":"you're going to face when you do"},{"startTime":3514.382,"endTime":3517.642,"body":"this, right with team level Kanban."},{"startTime":3517.792,"endTime":3521.702,"body":"The product people usually kind of"},{"startTime":3517.792,"endTime":3521.702,"body":"give you a sense of what is really"},{"startTime":3521.712,"endTime":3522.932,"body":"important, high business value."},{"startTime":3523.082,"endTime":3525.802,"body":"And there's some sort of"},{"startTime":3523.082,"endTime":3525.802,"body":"ranking with leadership."},{"startTime":3526.002,"endTime":3527.112,"body":"Everything's priority one."},{"startTime":3528.202,"endTime":3529.072,"body":"And that's a problem."},{"startTime":3529.522,"endTime":3530.942,"body":"this is why we have product management."},{"startTime":3531.012,"endTime":3534.042,"body":"This is why I like to get them all in"},{"startTime":3531.012,"endTime":3534.042,"body":"a room and say, What is priority one?"},{"startTime":3534.092,"endTime":3537.812,"body":"Let me know when you have"},{"startTime":3534.092,"endTime":3537.812,"body":"one P1, one P2, one P3."},{"startTime":3537.822,"endTime":3542.802,"body":"The nice thing about corporations mostly"},{"startTime":3537.822,"endTime":3542.802,"body":"being authoritarian systems and setups"},{"startTime":3542.832,"endTime":3546.502,"body":"is there is one person at the top who"},{"startTime":3542.832,"endTime":3546.502,"body":"can tell you what the real priority is."},{"startTime":3546.652,"endTime":3550.882,"body":"So, or he will or she will dictate"},{"startTime":3546.652,"endTime":3550.882,"body":"their priority over everybody else."},{"startTime":3551.212,"endTime":3554.892,"body":"I mean, listen, that is a, that's"},{"startTime":3551.212,"endTime":3554.892,"body":"a valid prioritization system."},{"startTime":3554.952,"endTime":3559.002,"body":"You will get what the number one, two, and"},{"startTime":3554.952,"endTime":3559.002,"body":"three priority is eventually or you'll get"},{"startTime":3559.342,"endTime":3562.642,"body":"a sign off at the top that everything is"},{"startTime":3559.342,"endTime":3562.642,"body":"priority one, where everything is on fire."},{"startTime":3562.792,"endTime":3565.362,"body":"I have seen that way more often."},{"startTime":3565.512,"endTime":3566.262,"body":"Everything's priority."},{"startTime":3566.412,"endTime":3569.707,"body":"then in that case, we"},{"startTime":3566.412,"endTime":3569.707,"body":"have some advice for you."},{"startTime":3569.857,"endTime":3570.947,"body":"Keep that resume updated."},{"startTime":3570.997,"endTime":3574.407,"body":"Usually finance people hold"},{"startTime":3570.997,"endTime":3574.407,"body":"the trump card in that case."},{"startTime":3574.557,"endTime":3575.467,"body":"Not always, but usually."},{"startTime":3575.617,"endTime":3579.237,"body":"Oh, and the other problem you have is, how"},{"startTime":3575.617,"endTime":3579.237,"body":"do you manage that Kanban system, right?"},{"startTime":3579.267,"endTime":3582.197,"body":"You don't have the idea of rotating"},{"startTime":3579.267,"endTime":3582.197,"body":"roles because nobody's going to do it."},{"startTime":3582.347,"endTime":3585.307,"body":"All leaders are fully busy"},{"startTime":3582.347,"endTime":3585.307,"body":"doing their other things."},{"startTime":3585.457,"endTime":3586.987,"body":"Planning to buy their"},{"startTime":3585.457,"endTime":3586.987,"body":"next yacht or whatever."},{"startTime":3587.197,"endTime":3588.307,"body":"So they're not gonna do it."},{"startTime":3588.307,"endTime":3589.957,"body":"They're not, it's just not gonna happen."},{"startTime":3589.957,"endTime":3590.107,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3590.437,"endTime":3595.597,"body":"And in those scenarios, I've found that"},{"startTime":3590.437,"endTime":3595.597,"body":"having somebody from change management"},{"startTime":3595.677,"endTime":3598.967,"body":"comes they can come in and kinda"},{"startTime":3595.677,"endTime":3598.967,"body":"help facilitate that but at the"},{"startTime":3598.967,"endTime":3602.977,"body":"end of the day, they're still"},{"startTime":3598.967,"endTime":3602.977,"body":"pleading rather than leading."},{"startTime":3602.982,"endTime":3603.182,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3603.182,"endTime":3604.567,"body":"That they're pleading most of the time."},{"startTime":3604.567,"endTime":3605.287,"body":"But please do this."},{"startTime":3605.437,"endTime":3606.097,"body":"I'm busy now."},{"startTime":3606.247,"endTime":3607.767,"body":"Well that's the podcast on Kanban."},{"startTime":3607.767,"endTime":3610.247,"body":"I can't believe we have never"},{"startTime":3607.767,"endTime":3610.247,"body":"had a podcast on kanban."},{"startTime":3610.307,"endTime":3613.287,"body":"It was way, way, way past time."},{"startTime":3613.287,"endTime":3616.487,"body":"And also this, this podcast turned into"},{"startTime":3613.287,"endTime":3616.487,"body":"an extravaganza all around the place"},{"startTime":3616.487,"endTime":3618.187,"body":"I feel like that's worth every penny."},{"startTime":3618.187,"endTime":3618.697,"body":"Everybody."},{"startTime":3618.967,"endTime":3619.677,"body":"Didn't pay for it."},{"startTime":3619.717,"endTime":3620.807,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":3620.957,"endTime":3624.897,"body":"Let us know in the in the space below,"},{"startTime":3620.957,"endTime":3624.897,"body":"what do you think if you've implemented"},{"startTime":3624.927,"endTime":3628.967,"body":"Kanban or challenges you've come across"},{"startTime":3624.927,"endTime":3628.967,"body":"and what else you'd like us to talk about?"},{"startTime":3629.017,"endTime":3631.357,"body":"Don't forget to share"},{"startTime":3629.017,"endTime":3631.357,"body":"and like, and subscribe."},{"startTime":3632.127,"endTime":3634.427,"body":"I'm setting a whip limit"},{"startTime":3632.127,"endTime":3634.427,"body":"on this podcast of zero."},{"startTime":3634.427,"endTime":3634.897,"body":"Zero."}]}