{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast,"},{"startTime":1.48,"endTime":4.46,"body":"where Enterprise Business Agility"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Coach Om Patel and Product Manager"},{"startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.63,"body":"Brian Orlando argue about product"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"management, leadership, and business"},{"startTime":7.65,"endTime":10.899,"body":"agility, so you don't have to."},{"startTime":11.794,"endTime":14.824,"body":"Welcome back to the podcast Feels"},{"startTime":11.794,"endTime":14.824,"body":"like we were just here, as a product"},{"startTime":14.824,"endTime":20.064,"body":"manager, I try to advocate , as much as"},{"startTime":14.824,"endTime":20.064,"body":"I can for the product operating model."},{"startTime":20.164,"endTime":21.424,"body":"it's not Agile Transformation anymore."},{"startTime":21.424,"endTime":24.614,"body":"Remember, it's Marty Cagan wrote a book,"},{"startTime":21.424,"endTime":24.614,"body":"transformed product operating model now."},{"startTime":24.834,"endTime":30.114,"body":"Okay, we need a team with all the skills"},{"startTime":24.834,"endTime":30.114,"body":"that the team needs to deliver What"},{"startTime":30.114,"endTime":32.094,"body":"is being asked for the value, right?"},{"startTime":32.394,"endTime":33.594,"body":"We don't want to wait on people."},{"startTime":33.624,"endTime":36.804,"body":"There's a concept of throughput that's"},{"startTime":33.624,"endTime":36.804,"body":"on top of this So I've come to believe"},{"startTime":36.954,"endTime":40.944,"body":"over the period of career that the"},{"startTime":36.954,"endTime":40.944,"body":"consolidation of skill and money into"},{"startTime":40.944,"endTime":45.504,"body":"this ivory tower style apparatus inside"},{"startTime":40.944,"endTime":45.504,"body":"of a business, like an area that is"},{"startTime":45.524,"endTime":47.774,"body":"outside of any of the teams doing"},{"startTime":45.524,"endTime":47.774,"body":"the work, like we've got to take."},{"startTime":48.114,"endTime":50.874,"body":"All of this particular HR is a good one."},{"startTime":50.884,"endTime":51.604,"body":"Finance is a good one."},{"startTime":51.614,"endTime":54.334,"body":"You see this in a lot of companies,"},{"startTime":51.614,"endTime":54.334,"body":"but sometimes they'll take specialist"},{"startTime":54.334,"endTime":55.864,"body":"roles DBA, stuff like that."},{"startTime":56.114,"endTime":58.324,"body":"we got to consolidate all"},{"startTime":56.114,"endTime":58.324,"body":"this into an ivory tower."},{"startTime":58.324,"endTime":61.744,"body":"And then we'll stand on the castle"},{"startTime":58.324,"endTime":61.744,"body":"walls and you come and beg for"},{"startTime":61.744,"endTime":64.124,"body":"the quote resources and we'll"},{"startTime":61.744,"endTime":64.124,"body":"throw the lettuce down at you"},{"startTime":64.414,"endTime":67.174,"body":"I want to make the case for the"},{"startTime":64.414,"endTime":67.174,"body":"people versus the ivory tower."},{"startTime":67.284,"endTime":70.484,"body":"And I want to talk about why,"},{"startTime":67.284,"endTime":70.484,"body":"why this consolidation of skill."},{"startTime":70.819,"endTime":73.899,"body":"Like how you see it, how it"},{"startTime":70.819,"endTime":73.899,"body":"manifests, and then the people"},{"startTime":73.899,"endTime":76.039,"body":"that are going to represent and"},{"startTime":73.899,"endTime":76.039,"body":"say, No, this is a good thing."},{"startTime":76.189,"endTime":79.819,"body":"Like, what points are they"},{"startTime":76.189,"endTime":79.819,"body":"going to use to defend it?"},{"startTime":80.039,"endTime":83.469,"body":"And then what points are the, basically"},{"startTime":80.039,"endTime":83.469,"body":"the rest of us that are  trying"},{"startTime":83.469,"endTime":86.929,"body":"to do a good job and run a good"},{"startTime":83.469,"endTime":86.929,"body":"business and don't play games what"},{"startTime":86.929,"endTime":88.199,"body":"we're gonna, what we're gonna say."},{"startTime":88.479,"endTime":89.489,"body":"So there's two sides."},{"startTime":89.489,"endTime":93.459,"body":"It's the people, In the ivory tower,"},{"startTime":89.489,"endTime":93.459,"body":"the people versus the I Ivory tower."},{"startTime":93.519,"endTime":93.699,"body":"That right."},{"startTime":93.699,"endTime":93.969,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":94.119,"endTime":95.349,"body":"Well let the hearing begin."},{"startTime":95.469,"endTime":95.609,"body":"Cha-Chung!"},{"startTime":97.481,"endTime":97.811,"body":"Oh, okay."},{"startTime":97.961,"endTime":99.911,"body":", this is a great format"},{"startTime":97.961,"endTime":99.911,"body":"and I'm excited by this."},{"startTime":100.061,"endTime":103.491,"body":"Let's start with my favorite one that"},{"startTime":100.061,"endTime":103.491,"body":"I think is the easiest to critique."},{"startTime":103.641,"endTime":105.861,"body":"And it is economies of scale."},{"startTime":106.011,"endTime":111.221,"body":"They will say, Hey, if we consolidate"},{"startTime":106.011,"endTime":111.221,"body":"across departments, we can save on labor."},{"startTime":111.416,"endTime":112.986,"body":"We can save on bulk purchases."},{"startTime":113.076,"endTime":114.786,"body":"We can save on vendor,"},{"startTime":113.076,"endTime":114.786,"body":"vendor relationships."},{"startTime":114.786,"endTime":117.806,"body":"Another good one is like, I"},{"startTime":114.786,"endTime":117.806,"body":"will choose your ALM for you."},{"startTime":117.956,"endTime":122.096,"body":"And then you will use the ALM I choose"},{"startTime":117.956,"endTime":122.096,"body":"and no other ALM to do your work."},{"startTime":122.326,"endTime":125.276,"body":"And then we'll save all money as"},{"startTime":122.326,"endTime":125.276,"body":"a company because I chose an ALM."},{"startTime":125.556,"endTime":129.196,"body":"the economy is a scale is one of"},{"startTime":125.556,"endTime":129.196,"body":"those things that's been really"},{"startTime":129.346,"endTime":130.676,"body":"bastardized over the years, right?"},{"startTime":130.716,"endTime":133.936,"body":"Under the guise of saving money"},{"startTime":130.716,"endTime":133.936,"body":"at the expense of something."},{"startTime":133.936,"endTime":135.536,"body":"They just stop at saving money."},{"startTime":135.686,"endTime":139.636,"body":"Ultimately, what this comes"},{"startTime":135.686,"endTime":139.636,"body":"about as is you're saving money."},{"startTime":139.786,"endTime":141.736,"body":"It is a short term thing, right?"},{"startTime":142.036,"endTime":145.346,"body":"So the person making the decision"},{"startTime":142.036,"endTime":145.346,"body":"maybe is rewarded based on that."},{"startTime":145.346,"endTime":148.056,"body":"And it was kind of touched on"},{"startTime":145.346,"endTime":148.056,"body":"that on a different broadcast."},{"startTime":148.206,"endTime":150.276,"body":"If that's what you're being"},{"startTime":148.206,"endTime":150.276,"body":"measured on, that's what you'll do."},{"startTime":150.316,"endTime":151.946,"body":"So buy a cheaper tool."},{"startTime":151.996,"endTime":156.866,"body":"We're saving money consolidate team"},{"startTime":151.996,"endTime":156.866,"body":"members into a specialist team."},{"startTime":156.996,"endTime":158.766,"body":"We need fewer of them because they're not."},{"startTime":158.916,"endTime":161.666,"body":"Why should why should we"},{"startTime":158.916,"endTime":161.666,"body":"have those on the teams?"},{"startTime":161.816,"endTime":165.336,"body":"We can just round robin those"},{"startTime":161.816,"endTime":165.336,"body":"around as we see fit under the"},{"startTime":165.346,"endTime":169.456,"body":"fallacy of utilization optimization."},{"startTime":169.486,"endTime":170.946,"body":"It's like a conceptual."},{"startTime":171.096,"endTime":171.556,"body":"idea."},{"startTime":171.556,"endTime":173.926,"body":"It's not anything that has to be proven."},{"startTime":174.126,"endTime":178.976,"body":"One of the tenants of agility is"},{"startTime":174.126,"endTime":178.976,"body":"the team develops its own processes."},{"startTime":179.126,"endTime":180.886,"body":"But that's a core tenant right there."},{"startTime":180.936,"endTime":183.206,"body":"For business agility, it"},{"startTime":180.936,"endTime":183.206,"body":"certainly is a core tenant."},{"startTime":183.256,"endTime":186.756,"body":"Like we're either going to be moving"},{"startTime":183.256,"endTime":186.756,"body":"towards more business agility or you're"},{"startTime":186.756,"endTime":188.876,"body":"going to be removing our business agility."},{"startTime":189.026,"endTime":191.796,"body":"You can wear any color you want"},{"startTime":189.026,"endTime":191.796,"body":"home as long as it's red like"},{"startTime":191.806,"endTime":193.016,"body":"that was I mean, wait a minute."},{"startTime":193.056,"endTime":195.066,"body":"not even shades of red are"},{"startTime":193.056,"endTime":195.066,"body":"allowed in some companies."},{"startTime":195.296,"endTime":196.506,"body":"So I agree with you there."},{"startTime":196.676,"endTime":199.536,"body":"unfortunately, people that"},{"startTime":196.676,"endTime":199.536,"body":"are making these decisions."},{"startTime":199.796,"endTime":201.376,"body":"of consolidation."},{"startTime":201.526,"endTime":202.886,"body":"just don't know any better, right?"},{"startTime":202.886,"endTime":205.836,"body":"They're rewarded based on the"},{"startTime":202.886,"endTime":205.836,"body":"results of those actions, so that's"},{"startTime":205.836,"endTime":207.076,"body":"what they're gonna gravitate to."},{"startTime":207.226,"endTime":209.646,"body":"Sadly, the teams are"},{"startTime":207.226,"endTime":209.646,"body":"not consulted in this."},{"startTime":209.796,"endTime":212.376,"body":"The teams are just handed"},{"startTime":209.796,"endTime":212.376,"body":"down these decisions."},{"startTime":212.526,"endTime":216.206,"body":"and they have to perform using"},{"startTime":212.526,"endTime":216.206,"body":"a tool that perhaps doesn't suit"},{"startTime":216.216,"endTime":219.086,"body":"them, using a structure that's"},{"startTime":216.216,"endTime":219.086,"body":"definitely not going to suit them."},{"startTime":219.116,"endTime":222.766,"body":"But yeah, so tools, I can kind"},{"startTime":219.116,"endTime":222.766,"body":"of like, everybody can gripe"},{"startTime":222.766,"endTime":223.976,"body":"and kind of just get over it."},{"startTime":223.976,"endTime":224.876,"body":"It's not a perfect tool, but."},{"startTime":224.886,"endTime":227.216,"body":"but org design, I mean, when they say"},{"startTime":224.886,"endTime":227.216,"body":"that, okay, well, you're not going"},{"startTime":227.216,"endTime":230.866,"body":"to have all of the architects through"},{"startTime":227.216,"endTime":230.866,"body":"the whole business are now going to"},{"startTime":230.866,"endTime":232.436,"body":"be controlled by the ivory tower."},{"startTime":232.586,"endTime":233.296,"body":"And we're going to have everything."},{"startTime":233.496,"endTime":236.786,"body":"So whenever you want to make changes to"},{"startTime":233.496,"endTime":236.786,"body":"certain core systems or really probably"},{"startTime":236.786,"endTime":239.856,"body":"any system at all, you have to get"},{"startTime":236.786,"endTime":239.856,"body":"signed off from one of our architects."},{"startTime":239.866,"endTime":241.436,"body":"So now they're putting delays in."},{"startTime":241.626,"endTime":245.746,"body":"I've just like economies of scale, it"},{"startTime":241.626,"endTime":245.746,"body":"sounds good financially on paper when"},{"startTime":245.746,"endTime":249.856,"body":"everything's a spreadsheet, but it does,"},{"startTime":245.746,"endTime":249.856,"body":"it completely fails in the real world."},{"startTime":250.056,"endTime":250.846,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":250.986,"endTime":254.356,"body":"So one of the things that makes it"},{"startTime":250.986,"endTime":254.356,"body":"easier for this kind of thing to kind of."},{"startTime":254.506,"endTime":259.766,"body":"You know, take hold gravitate is the ease"},{"startTime":254.506,"endTime":259.766,"body":"at which you can massage numbers like"},{"startTime":259.786,"endTime":264.236,"body":"to your point, you know in a spreadsheet"},{"startTime":259.786,"endTime":264.236,"body":"You could easily illustrate savings cost"},{"startTime":264.236,"endTime":269.776,"body":"savings is where that typically comes down"},{"startTime":264.236,"endTime":269.776,"body":"as But there isn't a corresponding column."},{"startTime":270.026,"endTime":270.976,"body":"What are you giving up?"},{"startTime":271.126,"endTime":271.506,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":271.636,"endTime":273.156,"body":"That's never on the spreadsheet."},{"startTime":273.306,"endTime":277.116,"body":"And the representation on that spreadsheet"},{"startTime":273.306,"endTime":277.116,"body":"for that column would come from people"},{"startTime":277.116,"endTime":280.296,"body":"that are impacted because these people"},{"startTime":277.116,"endTime":280.296,"body":"making decisions, they're not impacted."},{"startTime":280.346,"endTime":283.446,"body":"Except they get their bonus"},{"startTime":280.346,"endTime":283.446,"body":"if they get the savings done."},{"startTime":283.446,"endTime":286.686,"body":"Even a simple thing like the"},{"startTime":283.446,"endTime":286.686,"body":"tools, right, that you're saying."},{"startTime":286.836,"endTime":288.606,"body":"Decisions are made based on cost."},{"startTime":288.726,"endTime":288.986,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":289.096,"endTime":292.696,"body":"And being able to negotiate a"},{"startTime":289.096,"endTime":292.696,"body":"cheaper contract with a vendor."},{"startTime":292.746,"endTime":294.116,"body":"As opposed to, hey team."},{"startTime":294.266,"endTime":297.936,"body":"Go figure out what tool you need"},{"startTime":294.266,"endTime":297.936,"body":"and then we'll go see if we can"},{"startTime":298.016,"endTime":299.406,"body":"strike up a good deal, right?"},{"startTime":299.406,"endTime":302.066,"body":"Yeah, well, that would require, I"},{"startTime":299.406,"endTime":302.066,"body":"mean, look, what you just pointed out"},{"startTime":302.096,"endTime":305.836,"body":"is a great example because contracts,"},{"startTime":302.096,"endTime":305.836,"body":"purchasing, things like that, like a large"},{"startTime":305.836,"endTime":309.486,"body":"organizations that need contracts and"},{"startTime":305.836,"endTime":309.486,"body":"purchasing as a separate business unit."},{"startTime":309.606,"endTime":311.196,"body":"Because they're trying"},{"startTime":309.606,"endTime":311.196,"body":"to control everything."},{"startTime":311.346,"endTime":313.486,"body":"Funny thing is like the I can't"},{"startTime":311.346,"endTime":313.486,"body":"remember the name of the book."},{"startTime":313.606,"endTime":315.846,"body":"About Netflix's culture, early culture."},{"startTime":315.996,"endTime":319.756,"body":"And they had, they didn't have"},{"startTime":315.996,"endTime":319.756,"body":"any purchase rules or anything."},{"startTime":319.876,"endTime":321.376,"body":"Anybody could buy anything at Netflix."},{"startTime":321.526,"endTime":325.056,"body":"You know, now if you go and spend"},{"startTime":321.526,"endTime":325.056,"body":"60, 000 on the corporate card for"},{"startTime":325.136,"endTime":327.976,"body":"some luxury vacation, whatever,"},{"startTime":325.136,"endTime":327.976,"body":"you're probably going to get fired."},{"startTime":328.126,"endTime":332.956,"body":"But for the most part, that kind of a"},{"startTime":328.126,"endTime":332.956,"body":"model gives the team the autonomy to"},{"startTime":332.966,"endTime":337.856,"body":"get the optimum solution in place as"},{"startTime":332.966,"endTime":337.856,"body":"opposed to one that's purely dictated on"},{"startTime":337.856,"endTime":340.396,"body":"dollars well, speaking of dictating things"},{"startTime":340.546,"endTime":344.766,"body":"Along the lines of this is standardization"},{"startTime":340.546,"endTime":344.766,"body":"standardization for standardization's"},{"startTime":344.846,"endTime":348.626,"body":"sake right again along with economies"},{"startTime":344.846,"endTime":348.626,"body":"of scale I figured this is another"},{"startTime":348.626,"endTime":353.146,"body":"one that's slung out there with some"},{"startTime":348.626,"endTime":353.146,"body":"bold claims and Without ever seeing"},{"startTime":353.146,"endTime":354.566,"body":"numbers to back up these claims."},{"startTime":354.766,"endTime":357.676,"body":"I'll give you an example scrum masters,"},{"startTime":354.766,"endTime":357.676,"body":"for example, all of this, we're going"},{"startTime":357.676,"endTime":360.756,"body":"to take all the scrum masters away from"},{"startTime":357.676,"endTime":360.756,"body":"the teams with the team that the capital"},{"startTime":360.756,"endTime":362.946,"body":"one actually did the opposite of this."},{"startTime":363.016,"endTime":365.296,"body":"They, they took all the scrum"},{"startTime":363.016,"endTime":365.296,"body":"masters away from the central."},{"startTime":365.446,"endTime":368.116,"body":"centralized body and said the"},{"startTime":365.446,"endTime":368.116,"body":"teams are going to own them."},{"startTime":368.116,"endTime":368.836,"body":"They do, they went there."},{"startTime":368.856,"endTime":372.136,"body":"They, now they got beat up in the"},{"startTime":368.856,"endTime":372.136,"body":"news because that little nuance"},{"startTime":372.136,"endTime":373.596,"body":"of the decision wasn't right."},{"startTime":373.596,"endTime":375.076,"body":"this is the opposite of"},{"startTime":373.596,"endTime":375.076,"body":"that standardization."},{"startTime":375.076,"endTime":378.486,"body":"So we have to take all the scrum"},{"startTime":375.076,"endTime":378.486,"body":"masters from the teams and then we"},{"startTime":378.486,"endTime":382.216,"body":"have to, Put them in some sort of a"},{"startTime":378.486,"endTime":382.216,"body":"business agility office or something"},{"startTime":382.216,"endTime":385.266,"body":"like that, where they're loaned to"},{"startTime":382.216,"endTime":385.266,"body":"teams and it sounds good on paper"},{"startTime":385.276,"endTime":386.606,"body":"it even sounds good to me, actually."},{"startTime":386.776,"endTime":389.206,"body":"Hey, we'll loan you an agile coach"},{"startTime":386.776,"endTime":389.206,"body":"for three months kind of whip your"},{"startTime":389.206,"endTime":392.656,"body":"team into shape, help you along help"},{"startTime":389.206,"endTime":392.656,"body":"identify some things in the organization."},{"startTime":392.656,"endTime":396.086,"body":"This person isn't beholden to"},{"startTime":392.656,"endTime":396.086,"body":"anybody in your business unit or your"},{"startTime":396.126,"endTime":397.146,"body":"reporting structures or whatever."},{"startTime":397.146,"endTime":398.296,"body":"So they're a little more free."},{"startTime":398.496,"endTime":399.356,"body":"to recommend things."},{"startTime":399.676,"endTime":401.046,"body":"It sounds good in theory."},{"startTime":401.236,"endTime":403.946,"body":"And then you don't measure"},{"startTime":401.236,"endTime":403.946,"body":"the effectiveness of that."},{"startTime":403.986,"endTime":405.756,"body":"You'd have no way to measure it."},{"startTime":405.766,"endTime":407.246,"body":"So I've always seen that."},{"startTime":407.436,"endTime":410.576,"body":"I can even make a case where it sounds"},{"startTime":407.436,"endTime":410.576,"body":"good, but in actuality, I've never"},{"startTime":410.576,"endTime":413.896,"body":"seen it be applied and then measured"},{"startTime":410.576,"endTime":413.896,"body":"and then shown to the employees"},{"startTime":413.896,"endTime":415.486,"body":"like, this is what you guys got."},{"startTime":415.516,"endTime":416.466,"body":"Don't you think it's great?"},{"startTime":416.616,"endTime":417.616,"body":"I have seen it."},{"startTime":417.726,"endTime":418.876,"body":"It is very rare."},{"startTime":418.886,"endTime":422.626,"body":"So that comes down using your example"},{"startTime":418.886,"endTime":422.626,"body":"of scrum masters, coaches, etc."},{"startTime":422.676,"endTime":426.106,"body":"It comes down to doing an assessment"},{"startTime":422.676,"endTime":426.106,"body":"before they come in, and then"},{"startTime":426.116,"endTime":429.106,"body":"doing an assessment periodically"},{"startTime":426.116,"endTime":429.106,"body":"if it's a very long initiative"},{"startTime":429.116,"endTime":430.276,"body":"or just doing it at the end"},{"startTime":430.326,"endTime":432.636,"body":"and say, is there a"},{"startTime":430.326,"endTime":432.636,"body":"marked improvement, right?"},{"startTime":432.786,"endTime":438.486,"body":"But I've seen this standardization"},{"startTime":432.786,"endTime":438.486,"body":"approach for other things QA or DevOps or"},{"startTime":438.516,"endTime":443.636,"body":"even product people where they're told,"},{"startTime":438.516,"endTime":443.636,"body":"well, you're a product owner, right?"},{"startTime":443.676,"endTime":445.726,"body":"You can, you can serve three teams."},{"startTime":446.006,"endTime":449.986,"body":"You can serve four teams and"},{"startTime":446.006,"endTime":449.986,"body":"each team's focus is different."},{"startTime":450.136,"endTime":453.336,"body":"Disparate products lines or"},{"startTime":450.136,"endTime":453.336,"body":"product at least products, right?"},{"startTime":453.376,"endTime":457.746,"body":"Yeah, it's too big of an ask but those"},{"startTime":453.376,"endTime":457.746,"body":"that make the decision They can justify"},{"startTime":457.746,"endTime":461.156,"body":"it because now you only have to hire"},{"startTime":457.746,"endTime":461.156,"body":"one instead of four So it's just again"},{"startTime":461.186,"endTime":465.686,"body":"purely a unit measure cost savings"},{"startTime":461.186,"endTime":465.686,"body":"that angle that they're playing with."},{"startTime":465.746,"endTime":468.726,"body":"They're not looking at the other side"},{"startTime":465.746,"endTime":468.726,"body":"of the equation as I call it right which"},{"startTime":468.726,"endTime":470.771,"body":"is What are you giving up by doing that?"},{"startTime":470.921,"endTime":474.851,"body":"You have poor quality information"},{"startTime":470.921,"endTime":474.851,"body":"because one person cannot be in"},{"startTime":474.851,"endTime":478.131,"body":"front of four different groups"},{"startTime":474.851,"endTime":478.131,"body":"of customers often enough."},{"startTime":478.281,"endTime":479.821,"body":"Work with four different teams."},{"startTime":479.971,"endTime":480.621,"body":"All of that."},{"startTime":480.871,"endTime":485.041,"body":"So standardization looks good"},{"startTime":480.871,"endTime":485.041,"body":"because we've done this this way."},{"startTime":485.161,"endTime":487.041,"body":"Like PMO is a classic example of that."},{"startTime":487.191,"endTime":490.991,"body":"The standard PMO, they would document"},{"startTime":487.191,"endTime":490.991,"body":"everything a project manager needs to do."},{"startTime":491.141,"endTime":491.491,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":491.641,"endTime":494.481,"body":"While at the same time telling"},{"startTime":491.641,"endTime":494.481,"body":"you the definition of a project"},{"startTime":494.481,"endTime":495.861,"body":"is it's a unique endeavor."},{"startTime":496.011,"endTime":497.911,"body":"Well, if it's unique, how"},{"startTime":496.011,"endTime":497.911,"body":"can you standardize it?"},{"startTime":498.061,"endTime":499.461,"body":"How can you standardize"},{"startTime":498.061,"endTime":499.461,"body":"your approach to it?"},{"startTime":499.491,"endTime":500.361,"body":"But that's what they do."},{"startTime":500.621,"endTime":502.621,"body":"I remember joining a PMO many years ago."},{"startTime":502.931,"endTime":504.701,"body":"On my first day, I was handed a binder."},{"startTime":504.881,"endTime":505.851,"body":"The physical binder."},{"startTime":505.851,"endTime":507.181,"body":"It had everything I needed in there."},{"startTime":507.181,"endTime":507.991,"body":"Nicely tabbed."},{"startTime":508.211,"endTime":508.891,"body":"This is what you do."},{"startTime":508.941,"endTime":511.771,"body":"So if you didn't follow"},{"startTime":508.941,"endTime":511.771,"body":"that, then guess what?"},{"startTime":511.921,"endTime":515.351,"body":"you're not conforming and therefore,"},{"startTime":511.921,"endTime":515.351,"body":"in their eyes, you're not performing"},{"startTime":515.361,"endTime":518.491,"body":"the role so you find yourself"},{"startTime":515.361,"endTime":518.491,"body":"closer to the door, the exit."},{"startTime":518.641,"endTime":522.291,"body":"It's sad because people have"},{"startTime":518.641,"endTime":522.291,"body":"ideas and they're not entertained."},{"startTime":522.361,"endTime":526.461,"body":"It's just whatever's captured in the"},{"startTime":522.361,"endTime":526.461,"body":"standard, this is our internal standard."},{"startTime":526.511,"endTime":531.931,"body":"I think when teams lose the ability"},{"startTime":526.511,"endTime":531.931,"body":"to figure out the best way of working"},{"startTime":531.931,"endTime":535.221,"body":"for them and the business that they're"},{"startTime":531.931,"endTime":535.221,"body":"involved in they will put that mental"},{"startTime":535.221,"endTime":539.511,"body":"mode that discovers things, the"},{"startTime":535.221,"endTime":539.511,"body":"explore, exploit loop they'll kind of"},{"startTime":539.511,"endTime":542.401,"body":"put that on the back burner and they"},{"startTime":539.511,"endTime":542.401,"body":"won't use that muscle and then that"},{"startTime":542.401,"endTime":546.401,"body":"muscle will kind of deteriorate as"},{"startTime":542.401,"endTime":546.401,"body":"they, well, we'll just, we'll let the"},{"startTime":546.401,"endTime":548.571,"body":"ivory tower tell us what hammer to use."},{"startTime":548.571,"endTime":551.381,"body":"And then the ivory tower, everyone"},{"startTime":548.571,"endTime":551.381,"body":"on boards, they get one hammer"},{"startTime":551.431,"endTime":552.901,"body":"maybe it's a sledgehammer."},{"startTime":553.051,"endTime":557.261,"body":"It legitimately is a hammer in name,"},{"startTime":553.051,"endTime":557.261,"body":"I guess, but I mean, if your job is"},{"startTime":557.331,"endTime":560.591,"body":"to do tiny little finish nails, I"},{"startTime":557.331,"endTime":560.591,"body":"mean a sledgehammer is not the right"},{"startTime":560.601,"endTime":564.291,"body":"whoa, it's you know, no, but we bought"},{"startTime":560.601,"endTime":564.291,"body":"a thousand of those sledgehammers"},{"startTime":564.291,"endTime":565.391,"body":"and it was cheaper for hammer."},{"startTime":565.401,"endTime":568.011,"body":"This is our standard is what you're"},{"startTime":565.401,"endTime":568.011,"body":"exactly I guess the other, the other"},{"startTime":568.011,"endTime":570.531,"body":"argument against this would be like,"},{"startTime":568.011,"endTime":570.531,"body":"well, Brian, that's ridiculous."},{"startTime":570.531,"endTime":573.201,"body":"I mean, if we take on a new thing"},{"startTime":570.531,"endTime":573.201,"body":"of work and the people can approach"},{"startTime":573.521,"endTime":577.151,"body":"the central Authority here and ask"},{"startTime":573.521,"endTime":577.151,"body":"for an exception to the process"},{"startTime":577.151,"endTime":578.031,"body":"and whatever, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":578.031,"endTime":579.821,"body":"Like that would be the"},{"startTime":578.031,"endTime":579.821,"body":"that would be the pushback."},{"startTime":579.971,"endTime":582.201,"body":"That's true They could do that,"},{"startTime":579.971,"endTime":582.201,"body":"but there's probably gonna"},{"startTime":582.201,"endTime":583.691,"body":"be so much inertia, right?"},{"startTime":583.871,"endTime":587.321,"body":"and their Suggestions ideas"},{"startTime":583.871,"endTime":587.321,"body":"will probably be just squashed."},{"startTime":587.321,"endTime":587.871,"body":"I imagine."},{"startTime":588.071,"endTime":591.151,"body":"the flip side of it is Well, if"},{"startTime":588.071,"endTime":591.151,"body":"we let the teams do what they"},{"startTime":591.151,"endTime":592.861,"body":"want, we'll have anarchy right?"},{"startTime":592.911,"endTime":595.821,"body":"Yeah, right and we can't have that"},{"startTime":592.911,"endTime":595.821,"body":"this goes back to another podcast"},{"startTime":595.831,"endTime":597.141,"body":"we did about illusion of control."},{"startTime":597.151,"endTime":599.371,"body":"We gotta be in control We gotta"},{"startTime":597.151,"endTime":599.371,"body":"know what everybody's doing."},{"startTime":599.371,"endTime":601.581,"body":"And we're going to be able to pick"},{"startTime":599.371,"endTime":601.581,"body":"somebody up here and put them over"},{"startTime":601.581,"endTime":604.561,"body":"here because at the end of the day,"},{"startTime":601.581,"endTime":604.561,"body":"everybody is a Lego piece, right?"},{"startTime":604.651,"endTime":609.421,"body":"So, unfortunately, this whole"},{"startTime":604.651,"endTime":609.421,"body":"idea of economies of scale is"},{"startTime":609.431,"endTime":611.331,"body":"easy to illustrate on paper."},{"startTime":611.481,"endTime":612.911,"body":"So to speak, in a spreadsheet."},{"startTime":613.061,"endTime":615.711,"body":"But in reality, it is"},{"startTime":613.061,"endTime":615.711,"body":"actually costing the company."},{"startTime":615.721,"endTime":618.451,"body":"I don't want to spend any time talking"},{"startTime":615.721,"endTime":618.451,"body":"about scaling because like now that"},{"startTime":618.451,"endTime":620.731,"body":"I'm, Like firmly on the business side."},{"startTime":620.881,"endTime":624.111,"body":"I see that scaling is just like"},{"startTime":620.881,"endTime":624.111,"body":"a organizational design failure."},{"startTime":624.111,"endTime":626.721,"body":"You failed to draw borders around."},{"startTime":626.801,"endTime":630.651,"body":"It's, it's one or more teams,"},{"startTime":626.801,"endTime":630.651,"body":"basically there's a limit, right?"},{"startTime":630.921,"endTime":633.381,"body":"Who are, who are operating a business."},{"startTime":633.531,"endTime":637.091,"body":"And have some metrics and whatever and"},{"startTime":633.531,"endTime":637.091,"body":"that those teams can coordinate amongst"},{"startTime":637.091,"endTime":641.141,"body":"themselves to make those customers happy"},{"startTime":637.091,"endTime":641.141,"body":"Like yeah, if you keep drawing bigger"},{"startTime":641.141,"endTime":644.141,"body":"and bigger circles, you'll add more and"},{"startTime":641.141,"endTime":644.141,"body":"more customers But I feel you should"},{"startTime":644.181,"endTime":647.531,"body":"be breaking those customer pools down"},{"startTime":644.181,"endTime":647.531,"body":"You should be working to break down"},{"startTime":647.531,"endTime":651.501,"body":"your pools of customers and then let"},{"startTime":647.531,"endTime":651.501,"body":"your teams follow, you know along with"},{"startTime":651.501,"endTime":653.411,"body":"that again That's super complicated."},{"startTime":653.541,"endTime":656.361,"body":"Maybe we'll leave that for another"},{"startTime":653.541,"endTime":656.361,"body":"podcast, There's something that you dipped"},{"startTime":656.361,"endTime":661.731,"body":"into that is interesting and that's the"},{"startTime":656.361,"endTime":661.731,"body":"concept of flexibility let's say we have,"},{"startTime":661.761,"endTime":664.961,"body":"we're engaged in like seven different"},{"startTime":661.761,"endTime":664.961,"body":"lines of business and every one of those"},{"startTime":664.961,"endTime":667.001,"body":"lines of business has a product manager."},{"startTime":667.151,"endTime":669.941,"body":"Okay, we're going to take all the"},{"startTime":667.151,"endTime":669.941,"body":"product managers out of the reporting"},{"startTime":669.941,"endTime":672.641,"body":"structures of their individual"},{"startTime":669.941,"endTime":672.641,"body":"businesses and the ivory tower is"},{"startTime":672.641,"endTime":674.161,"body":"now going to own all the product."},{"startTime":674.301,"endTime":675.201,"body":"So we'll have a CPO."},{"startTime":675.351,"endTime":676.461,"body":"Gary, the sales guy, right?"},{"startTime":676.461,"endTime":677.971,"body":"He plays golf with the CEO."},{"startTime":677.971,"endTime":678.581,"body":"He's a smart guy."},{"startTime":678.731,"endTime":682.131,"body":"And then he'll own all of the"},{"startTime":678.731,"endTime":682.131,"body":"product managers and then they'll be"},{"startTime":682.131,"endTime":683.521,"body":"loaned back to their business units."},{"startTime":683.521,"endTime":686.101,"body":"And then when we need them to do"},{"startTime":683.521,"endTime":686.101,"body":"corporate things, to spin up new"},{"startTime":686.101,"endTime":687.481,"body":"initiatives and we'll take them back."},{"startTime":687.481,"endTime":691.701,"body":"And I mean, that will be sold under"},{"startTime":687.481,"endTime":691.701,"body":"the guise of being more agile, we"},{"startTime":691.711,"endTime":695.751,"body":"can be more flexible because we got"},{"startTime":691.711,"endTime":695.751,"body":"these quote resources maybe they, do"},{"startTime":695.751,"endTime":697.821,"body":"they need to do a refinement every."},{"startTime":697.971,"endTime":699.041,"body":"week with their teams."},{"startTime":699.041,"endTime":703.141,"body":"Maybe we can cut that to every other week"},{"startTime":699.041,"endTime":703.141,"body":"and you know, the team can do some of"},{"startTime":703.141,"endTime":707.191,"body":"the work and they can just ask the person"},{"startTime":703.141,"endTime":707.191,"body":"when they need help or whatever and they"},{"startTime":707.191,"endTime":708.491,"body":"can go do this other thing in part time."},{"startTime":708.571,"endTime":711.981,"body":"This is legitimately, this is how"},{"startTime":708.571,"endTime":711.981,"body":"I've seen things like this pitched."},{"startTime":712.181,"endTime":716.031,"body":"Yeah, distorted view of the"},{"startTime":712.181,"endTime":716.031,"body":"benefits of doing it that way."},{"startTime":716.181,"endTime":716.851,"body":"I agree with you."},{"startTime":716.851,"endTime":722.241,"body":"First of all, the difficulty is Not"},{"startTime":716.851,"endTime":722.241,"body":"having data to defend the situation"},{"startTime":722.391,"endTime":724.741,"body":"that is being thrust upon you, honestly."},{"startTime":724.951,"endTime":725.581,"body":"Not having data."},{"startTime":725.591,"endTime":727.911,"body":"They have the data, they have"},{"startTime":725.591,"endTime":727.911,"body":"the spreadsheets, because"},{"startTime":727.911,"endTime":729.321,"body":"it's easy to measure cost."},{"startTime":729.471,"endTime":731.061,"body":"It's harder to measure benefits."},{"startTime":731.121,"endTime":734.431,"body":"It's harder, to measure the opportunity"},{"startTime":731.121,"endTime":734.431,"body":"costs quite difficult, right?"},{"startTime":734.671,"endTime":737.101,"body":"Like what, what are we"},{"startTime":734.671,"endTime":737.101,"body":"giving up by not doing?"},{"startTime":737.101,"endTime":739.531,"body":"Well, that's, I mean, in the"},{"startTime":737.101,"endTime":739.531,"body":"product management example, you"},{"startTime":739.531,"endTime":740.581,"body":"have no idea what you're getting."},{"startTime":740.581,"endTime":743.551,"body":"You don't know what those product"},{"startTime":740.581,"endTime":743.551,"body":"managers would've discovered, right."},{"startTime":743.551,"endTime":746.071,"body":"Had you not put this"},{"startTime":743.551,"endTime":746.071,"body":"additional stream of work."},{"startTime":746.076,"endTime":747.886,"body":"you can apply that to anybody else."},{"startTime":747.916,"endTime":751.826,"body":"I mean, you, the product, I only,"},{"startTime":747.916,"endTime":751.826,"body":"it's easy for me to apply to product"},{"startTime":751.846,"endTime":753.146,"body":"management because I am a product manager."},{"startTime":753.296,"endTime":754.926,"body":"I'm sure you could do it with development."},{"startTime":754.926,"endTime":758.536,"body":"I mean, what refactoring could you"},{"startTime":754.926,"endTime":758.536,"body":"be doing or what investigation of"},{"startTime":758.536,"endTime":759.986,"body":"new technologies could you be doing?"},{"startTime":760.276,"endTime":762.766,"body":"Like there are things you could be"},{"startTime":760.276,"endTime":762.766,"body":"doing, but for some reason, the ivory"},{"startTime":762.766,"endTime":766.656,"body":"tower, when they make this pitch,"},{"startTime":762.766,"endTime":766.656,"body":"they paint it as well, Brian's only"},{"startTime":766.656,"endTime":771.316,"body":"dedicated to Brian and Ohm's company a,"},{"startTime":766.656,"endTime":771.316,"body":"and he spends all his time over there."},{"startTime":771.466,"endTime":773.786,"body":"Surely that can't take all of his time."},{"startTime":773.786,"endTime":778.616,"body":"He's got to maybe we can't have him"},{"startTime":773.786,"endTime":778.616,"body":"sitting around  he only was working 42."},{"startTime":778.616,"endTime":779.126,"body":"5 hours a week."},{"startTime":779.126,"endTime":784.696,"body":"We, well, that's, that's another, at"},{"startTime":779.126,"endTime":784.696,"body":"least 20 hours, at least 20 more hours."},{"startTime":784.696,"endTime":786.476,"body":"We can be squeezing on a Brian."},{"startTime":786.626,"endTime":789.436,"body":"Yeah, that's the kind of pitch that"},{"startTime":786.626,"endTime":789.436,"body":"would be made for this category."},{"startTime":789.786,"endTime":791.146,"body":"So it's disingenuous."},{"startTime":791.176,"endTime":794.046,"body":"I'm trying to think of a way to"},{"startTime":791.176,"endTime":794.046,"body":"defend this point for the Ivory"},{"startTime":794.046,"endTime":795.606,"body":"Tower where it would be genuine."},{"startTime":795.816,"endTime":799.316,"body":"I would just, but again, it's just like,"},{"startTime":795.816,"endTime":799.316,"body":"in the Ivory Tower, you're so far from the"},{"startTime":799.316,"endTime":804.296,"body":"work, you have no idea what opportunities"},{"startTime":799.316,"endTime":804.296,"body":"are missed by removing that person."},{"startTime":804.496,"endTime":808.396,"body":"I think my experience and looking"},{"startTime":804.496,"endTime":808.396,"body":"at, looking to your left and right"},{"startTime":808.416,"endTime":811.666,"body":"your competitors or other, or even"},{"startTime":808.416,"endTime":811.666,"body":"other companies that are suffering."},{"startTime":811.816,"endTime":814.296,"body":"You might be able to see that,"},{"startTime":811.816,"endTime":814.296,"body":"but you can't measure it."},{"startTime":814.446,"endTime":819.136,"body":"the other side effect of this kind"},{"startTime":814.446,"endTime":819.136,"body":"of centralized approach, right?"},{"startTime":819.166,"endTime":822.536,"body":"Is it tends to give rise"},{"startTime":819.166,"endTime":822.536,"body":"to specialties, right?"},{"startTime":822.536,"endTime":827.656,"body":"So instead of having the core, Skills"},{"startTime":822.536,"endTime":827.656,"body":"that are needed on the team level."},{"startTime":827.806,"endTime":832.176,"body":"You now have people that are in this"},{"startTime":827.806,"endTime":832.176,"body":"pocket and they're specialists, right?"},{"startTime":832.326,"endTime":833.236,"body":"So then what happens?"},{"startTime":833.286,"endTime":835.116,"body":"Well, you need a specialist on your team."},{"startTime":835.126,"endTime":837.986,"body":"So you have to make a"},{"startTime":835.126,"endTime":837.986,"body":"requisition to that department."},{"startTime":838.336,"endTime":840.706,"body":"And if someone's available,"},{"startTime":838.336,"endTime":840.706,"body":"you get that person."},{"startTime":840.706,"endTime":843.661,"body":"If they're not available, you have"},{"startTime":840.706,"endTime":843.661,"body":"to wait or you get somebody else."},{"startTime":843.811,"endTime":846.271,"body":"You know, at the same time, what"},{"startTime":843.811,"endTime":846.271,"body":"happens is these specialists"},{"startTime":846.271,"endTime":848.851,"body":"say, well, we're special, now"},{"startTime":846.271,"endTime":848.851,"body":"we have special skills, right?"},{"startTime":848.851,"endTime":849.541,"body":"We want more money."},{"startTime":849.691,"endTime":850.021,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":850.111,"endTime":851.521,"body":"So everything's costing more."},{"startTime":851.521,"endTime":851.791,"body":"Now."},{"startTime":851.921,"endTime":853.121,"body":"I've seen this with testing."},{"startTime":853.331,"endTime":854.216,"body":"I've seen this with dba."},{"startTime":854.366,"endTime":855.356,"body":"I've seen this with architects."},{"startTime":855.396,"endTime":856.436,"body":"I've seen, I've seen this with DevOps."},{"startTime":856.486,"endTime":858.076,"body":"Scrum Masters."},{"startTime":858.106,"endTime":860.056,"body":"I've seen this with Agile"},{"startTime":858.106,"endTime":860.056,"body":"Coaches slash Scrum Masters."},{"startTime":860.286,"endTime":861.716,"body":"I've seen this with product people, and"},{"startTime":861.716,"endTime":865.086,"body":"the first groups that this happens"},{"startTime":861.716,"endTime":865.086,"body":"to, this kind of like, We're"},{"startTime":865.086,"endTime":866.736,"body":"going to take them away and we're"},{"startTime":865.086,"endTime":866.736,"body":"going to put them in this pool."},{"startTime":867.056,"endTime":871.836,"body":"Is all the finance people, HR"},{"startTime":867.056,"endTime":871.836,"body":"recruiting like that wing of the"},{"startTime":871.856,"endTime":873.626,"body":"company they take those people away."},{"startTime":873.676,"endTime":876.426,"body":"I've never seen those people"},{"startTime":873.676,"endTime":876.426,"body":"stay in a distributed."},{"startTime":876.626,"endTime":880.246,"body":"Yeah where like your, your"},{"startTime":876.626,"endTime":880.246,"body":"recruiter is this particular person."},{"startTime":880.246,"endTime":881.886,"body":"They know your teams, they"},{"startTime":880.246,"endTime":881.886,"body":"know your line of business."},{"startTime":881.886,"endTime":882.716,"body":"They know your customers."},{"startTime":882.716,"endTime":884.546,"body":"They work in the ivory tower"},{"startTime":882.716,"endTime":884.546,"body":"and they don't report to you."},{"startTime":884.866,"endTime":889.836,"body":"So you, you get a, this is where like If"},{"startTime":884.866,"endTime":889.836,"body":"you ever have been applying for jobs and"},{"startTime":889.836,"endTime":892.136,"body":"you get like Hey we thanks for applying."},{"startTime":892.136,"endTime":894.246,"body":"We looked at your resume and"},{"startTime":892.136,"endTime":894.246,"body":"we, we like you or whatever."},{"startTime":894.246,"endTime":896.546,"body":"And you look at, you're"},{"startTime":894.246,"endTime":896.546,"body":"watching like, holy cow."},{"startTime":896.546,"endTime":899.206,"body":"It's been like six weeks since I put that."},{"startTime":899.356,"endTime":902.776,"body":"Application in, this is one of the"},{"startTime":899.356,"endTime":902.776,"body":"reasons why like a recruiter who's"},{"startTime":902.776,"endTime":906.596,"body":"dedicated to the teams who are hurting"},{"startTime":902.776,"endTime":906.596,"body":"and need positions like filled, they"},{"startTime":906.596,"endTime":911.216,"body":"would never be able to sit on like"},{"startTime":906.596,"endTime":911.216,"body":"I asked somebody on my team, like I"},{"startTime":911.226,"endTime":912.406,"body":"say, Hey, this is my top priority."},{"startTime":912.406,"endTime":913.256,"body":"I need to get it done."},{"startTime":913.406,"endTime":914.386,"body":"Who can accomplish that?"},{"startTime":914.406,"endTime":915.401,"body":"Well, my developers."},{"startTime":915.621,"endTime":919.901,"body":"Can't go and screen resumes and write"},{"startTime":915.621,"endTime":919.901,"body":"a job description and release it out on"},{"startTime":919.901,"endTime":921.251,"body":"all the platforms and whatever, right?"},{"startTime":921.251,"endTime":924.071,"body":"So I need the recruiter"},{"startTime":921.251,"endTime":924.071,"body":"from my company to do it."},{"startTime":924.131,"endTime":928.341,"body":"Well, if they worked for me filling"},{"startTime":924.131,"endTime":928.341,"body":"the, the position on my team, I would"},{"startTime":928.351,"endTime":930.821,"body":"hand them something just like on"},{"startTime":928.351,"endTime":930.821,"body":"the board with the rest of the team."},{"startTime":931.021,"endTime":932.487,"body":"I'd write hey, we need"},{"startTime":931.021,"endTime":932.487,"body":"to fill this position."},{"startTime":932.487,"endTime":932.776,"body":"That's their task."},{"startTime":932.776,"endTime":934.126,"body":"Pick it up."},{"startTime":934.126,"endTime":936.106,"body":"And then every day Hey,"},{"startTime":934.126,"endTime":936.106,"body":"this is where we're at."},{"startTime":936.126,"endTime":937.146,"body":"This is the but boy!"},{"startTime":937.146,"endTime":939.416,"body":"To, to, to not be accountable to the team."},{"startTime":939.566,"endTime":939.856,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":939.856,"endTime":941.256,"body":"That's a, that's a whole new world."},{"startTime":941.546,"endTime":942.506,"body":"Where can I sign up for that?"},{"startTime":942.556,"endTime":943.196,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":943.466,"endTime":946.176,"body":"Well that organization"},{"startTime":943.466,"endTime":946.176,"body":"is circling the drain."},{"startTime":946.326,"endTime":946.836,"body":"I just don't know."},{"startTime":946.886,"endTime":950.096,"body":"I mean, like you say it,"},{"startTime":946.886,"endTime":950.096,"body":"but it's, it's so regular."},{"startTime":950.146,"endTime":953.596,"body":"My problem with all of the ivory"},{"startTime":950.146,"endTime":953.596,"body":"tower's points in these categories"},{"startTime":953.606,"endTime":958.326,"body":"that we've kind of gone over is"},{"startTime":953.606,"endTime":958.326,"body":"they don't make a case with like,"},{"startTime":958.356,"endTime":959.866,"body":"let me measure the condition now."},{"startTime":960.016,"endTime":961.236,"body":"Let me suggest a change."},{"startTime":961.386,"endTime":962.416,"body":"Let me make the change."},{"startTime":962.566,"endTime":964.316,"body":"Let me measure the"},{"startTime":962.566,"endTime":964.316,"body":"condition after the change."},{"startTime":964.466,"endTime":966.286,"body":"And then let's discuss."},{"startTime":966.436,"endTime":969.436,"body":"What you're getting, let's"},{"startTime":966.436,"endTime":969.436,"body":"discuss the quality of service."},{"startTime":969.436,"endTime":974.866,"body":"Like anybody who's in this, if I take"},{"startTime":969.436,"endTime":974.866,"body":"a, like in team topologies, X as a"},{"startTime":974.866,"endTime":980.826,"body":"service is a valid mode of operations for"},{"startTime":974.866,"endTime":980.826,"body":"teams Method of working between teams."},{"startTime":980.946,"endTime":982.036,"body":"I can't remember what"},{"startTime":980.946,"endTime":982.036,"body":"it's called in the book."},{"startTime":982.136,"endTime":982.706,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":982.706,"endTime":983.136,"body":"I'm failing."},{"startTime":983.336,"endTime":984.806,"body":"Sorry, Manuel Pais any other guy."},{"startTime":985.116,"endTime":985.526,"body":"I forgot."},{"startTime":985.586,"endTime":985.906,"body":"Skelton."},{"startTime":985.926,"endTime":986.046,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":989.022,"endTime":992.132,"body":"this is why I need to get my Twitter"},{"startTime":989.022,"endTime":992.132,"body":"back up and working so I can zing those"},{"startTime":992.132,"endTime":996.112,"body":"guys and be like another reference to"},{"startTime":992.132,"endTime":996.112,"body":"teen topologies in this week's podcast."},{"startTime":996.262,"endTime":1000.702,"body":"I'll give you an example of this this"},{"startTime":996.262,"endTime":1000.702,"body":"this whole kind of madness a company I"},{"startTime":1000.702,"endTime":1002.552,"body":"work for we used to book our own travel."},{"startTime":1002.622,"endTime":1006.132,"body":"We were consultants traveling out to"},{"startTime":1002.622,"endTime":1006.132,"body":"customer sites all the time So we'd book"},{"startTime":1006.132,"endTime":1009.402,"body":"our own travel somebody wised up and"},{"startTime":1006.132,"endTime":1009.402,"body":"said these people have been spending"},{"startTime":1009.442,"endTime":1014.502,"body":"too long Researching the flight flights"},{"startTime":1009.442,"endTime":1014.502,"body":"and hotels and rental cars So what we're"},{"startTime":1014.502,"endTime":1017.992,"body":"gonna do is we're gonna hire one person"},{"startTime":1014.502,"endTime":1017.992,"body":"and they're our internal travel agent."},{"startTime":1018.322,"endTime":1021.172,"body":"So you just talk to brandy You"},{"startTime":1018.322,"endTime":1021.172,"body":"Dude, it sounds great in theory,"},{"startTime":1021.172,"endTime":1021.892,"body":"in theory it sounds great."},{"startTime":1022.042,"endTime":1025.242,"body":"It was great because we didn't have"},{"startTime":1022.042,"endTime":1025.242,"body":"to take the pain to go research."},{"startTime":1025.242,"endTime":1025.432,"body":"It was wonderful."},{"startTime":1025.432,"endTime":1026.542,"body":"Hang on, hang on, hang on."},{"startTime":1026.542,"endTime":1029.212,"body":"Before you tell me the rest of the"},{"startTime":1026.542,"endTime":1029.212,"body":"story, before you tell me the story now."},{"startTime":1029.222,"endTime":1030.322,"body":"Let me pitch it for you."},{"startTime":1030.322,"endTime":1030.912,"body":"Let me pitch it."},{"startTime":1030.912,"endTime":1031.262,"body":"Go, go, go."},{"startTime":1031.262,"endTime":1032.192,"body":"Let me be the ivory tower, okay?"},{"startTime":1032.202,"endTime":1032.542,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1032.622,"endTime":1032.932,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":1033.052,"endTime":1033.962,"body":"In the ivory tower."},{"startTime":1034.112,"endTime":1038.882,"body":"Okay, I, Brian the executive at Brian"},{"startTime":1034.112,"endTime":1038.882,"body":"and Ohm's totally not travel company."},{"startTime":1039.032,"endTime":1042.852,"body":"I'm gonna say listen We're gonna get"},{"startTime":1039.032,"endTime":1042.852,"body":"somebody who comes from a travel agency."},{"startTime":1042.852,"endTime":1043.982,"body":"It's gonna be a sweet gig for them."},{"startTime":1043.992,"endTime":1045.842,"body":"They're gonna be our"},{"startTime":1043.992,"endTime":1045.842,"body":"internal travel agent."},{"startTime":1046.062,"endTime":1047.442,"body":"They'll handle the project managers."},{"startTime":1047.642,"endTime":1050.862,"body":"They'll handle executives They'll"},{"startTime":1047.642,"endTime":1050.862,"body":"handle sales basically, but I would"},{"startTime":1050.862,"endTime":1053.542,"body":"start with one department Let me"},{"startTime":1050.862,"endTime":1053.542,"body":"just start with the project managers."},{"startTime":1053.692,"endTime":1055.487,"body":"Maybe there's only like 10, 12 of them."},{"startTime":1055.497,"endTime":1057.697,"body":"I don't know how many people that"},{"startTime":1055.497,"endTime":1057.697,"body":"were in your circumstance, but there's"},{"startTime":1057.697,"endTime":1059.727,"body":"like a near a dozen or more than that."},{"startTime":1059.737,"endTime":1061.137,"body":"It's you're not far off."},{"startTime":1061.167,"endTime":1061.357,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1061.397,"endTime":1064.227,"body":"But it can't be too many because"},{"startTime":1061.397,"endTime":1064.227,"body":"then that person get overwhelmed."},{"startTime":1064.347,"endTime":1066.357,"body":"Cause a lot of, but let's say"},{"startTime":1064.347,"endTime":1066.357,"body":"like 50 percent of the people"},{"startTime":1066.357,"endTime":1067.167,"body":"are on the road at a time."},{"startTime":1067.287,"endTime":1069.367,"body":"That's not that bad at seven"},{"startTime":1067.287,"endTime":1069.367,"body":"people constantly traveling."},{"startTime":1069.367,"endTime":1074.227,"body":"So as a travel agent you want"},{"startTime":1069.367,"endTime":1074.227,"body":"the travel to be as pleasant and"},{"startTime":1074.227,"endTime":1077.807,"body":"efficient as possible for the person"},{"startTime":1074.227,"endTime":1077.807,"body":"and the customer and the company."},{"startTime":1077.977,"endTime":1081.137,"body":"Where I think it would be a great benefit"},{"startTime":1077.977,"endTime":1081.137,"body":"to the company is when you want to book"},{"startTime":1081.247,"endTime":1085.197,"body":"a trip, that person comes and talks to"},{"startTime":1081.247,"endTime":1085.197,"body":"you, figures out how you like to move"},{"startTime":1085.197,"endTime":1088.497,"body":"around, figures out if you like to fly"},{"startTime":1085.197,"endTime":1088.497,"body":"in the morning, the day before, day"},{"startTime":1088.497,"endTime":1090.967,"body":"after, figures out if you want to take"},{"startTime":1088.497,"endTime":1090.967,"body":"some vacation in between, because they'll"},{"startTime":1090.967,"endTime":1094.827,"body":"build that into the ticket, and they kind"},{"startTime":1090.967,"endTime":1094.827,"body":"of talk about your agenda, they look up"},{"startTime":1094.827,"endTime":1097.357,"body":"maps, figure out where you're going and"},{"startTime":1094.827,"endTime":1097.357,"body":"stuff like that, because maybe you don't"},{"startTime":1097.357,"endTime":1100.347,"body":"want to fly in and then drive all the"},{"startTime":1097.357,"endTime":1100.347,"body":"way across town They're figuring out all"},{"startTime":1100.347,"endTime":1103.747,"body":"those little details coming up with a"},{"startTime":1100.347,"endTime":1103.747,"body":"map, actually listen to what you're saying"},{"startTime":1104.037,"endTime":1108.197,"body":"and then can get you deals based on their"},{"startTime":1104.037,"endTime":1108.197,"body":"expertise that you could not get yourself."},{"startTime":1108.237,"endTime":1110.747,"body":"so they might get a deal on the"},{"startTime":1108.237,"endTime":1110.747,"body":"airline ticket where you, you"},{"startTime":1110.747,"endTime":1111.747,"body":"don't have that kind of access."},{"startTime":1111.777,"endTime":1113.427,"body":"I work with contract"},{"startTime":1111.777,"endTime":1113.427,"body":"people that could do this."},{"startTime":1113.537,"endTime":1116.747,"body":"Back in the day when you would"},{"startTime":1113.537,"endTime":1116.747,"body":"do like a laptop purchasing and"},{"startTime":1116.747,"endTime":1118.117,"body":"stuff like that, but the corporate."},{"startTime":1118.267,"endTime":1119.027,"body":"Contracts."},{"startTime":1119.177,"endTime":1119.687,"body":"Acquisition."},{"startTime":1119.687,"endTime":1120.227,"body":"Well, I remember it."},{"startTime":1120.227,"endTime":1123.757,"body":"Well, she got great deals on laptops and"},{"startTime":1120.227,"endTime":1123.757,"body":"I was like, I don't know where you're"},{"startTime":1123.757,"endTime":1128.037,"body":"getting it And they were high they were"},{"startTime":1123.757,"endTime":1128.037,"body":"high end machines top of the of the"},{"startTime":1128.037,"endTime":1131.247,"body":"line machines But she got great deals"},{"startTime":1128.037,"endTime":1131.247,"body":"on these if you went through her you but"},{"startTime":1131.247,"endTime":1134.457,"body":"the business didn't make you go through"},{"startTime":1131.247,"endTime":1134.457,"body":"her But the people I knew was like just"},{"startTime":1134.457,"endTime":1137.887,"body":"go go through the purchasing person She"},{"startTime":1134.457,"endTime":1137.887,"body":"knows the right people to talk to anyway"},{"startTime":1138.037,"endTime":1141.287,"body":"So this is that they know the right people"},{"startTime":1138.037,"endTime":1141.287,"body":"to talk to if you're operating in certain"},{"startTime":1141.287,"endTime":1144.317,"body":"cities Maybe you can get a travel agent"},{"startTime":1141.287,"endTime":1144.317,"body":"that already has contacts in those cities"},{"startTime":1144.317,"endTime":1147.987,"body":"Maybe you hire the right person for where"},{"startTime":1144.317,"endTime":1147.987,"body":"you do business you And it could be a"},{"startTime":1147.987,"endTime":1154.357,"body":"really great, I mean, a quality of life"},{"startTime":1147.987,"endTime":1154.357,"body":"benefit for the travelers in your company."},{"startTime":1154.647,"endTime":1157.327,"body":"That is exactly how the"},{"startTime":1154.647,"endTime":1157.327,"body":"marketing brochure was produced."},{"startTime":1157.327,"endTime":1157.587,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1157.647,"endTime":1158.777,"body":"The reality now."},{"startTime":1159.007,"endTime":1159.197,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1159.347,"endTime":1160.077,"body":"Hit me with the reality."},{"startTime":1160.077,"endTime":1162.707,"body":"The reality was, this actually"},{"startTime":1160.077,"endTime":1162.707,"body":"happened this way, right?"},{"startTime":1162.757,"endTime":1166.367,"body":"So initially they said, what are some"},{"startTime":1162.757,"endTime":1166.367,"body":"of your biggest frustrations, people?"},{"startTime":1166.517,"endTime":1167.437,"body":"Your travel people."},{"startTime":1167.647,"endTime":1169.297,"body":"Well, we call and we have to just."},{"startTime":1169.532,"endTime":1172.352,"body":"Stay on the line till we get"},{"startTime":1169.532,"endTime":1172.352,"body":"a human to answer us, right?"},{"startTime":1172.502,"endTime":1174.042,"body":"All that goes away because guess what?"},{"startTime":1174.122,"endTime":1175.332,"body":"We hired a human now."},{"startTime":1175.482,"endTime":1177.002,"body":"All right, so you call that person."},{"startTime":1177.152,"endTime":1179.472,"body":"And wait because she's"},{"startTime":1177.152,"endTime":1179.472,"body":"talking to somebody else."},{"startTime":1179.522,"endTime":1181.522,"body":"So the wait didn't"},{"startTime":1179.522,"endTime":1181.522,"body":"really disappear at all."},{"startTime":1181.672,"endTime":1182.362,"body":"It was still there."},{"startTime":1182.512,"endTime":1183.352,"body":"She didn't come to you."},{"startTime":1183.352,"endTime":1185.072,"body":"You went to her and you"},{"startTime":1183.352,"endTime":1185.072,"body":"said, I'm traveling."},{"startTime":1185.102,"endTime":1188.042,"body":"I need to travel these dates"},{"startTime":1185.102,"endTime":1188.042,"body":"from this city to this city."},{"startTime":1188.192,"endTime":1189.602,"body":"She's like, I got you, right?"},{"startTime":1189.762,"endTime":1191.152,"body":"I'll put you in a hotel nearby."},{"startTime":1191.212,"endTime":1192.942,"body":"Okay, hangs up the phone."},{"startTime":1193.062,"endTime":1196.622,"body":"Next thing you know, electronic tickets"},{"startTime":1193.062,"endTime":1196.622,"body":"are delivered into your mailbox."},{"startTime":1196.772,"endTime":1198.062,"body":"And then you realize, oh."},{"startTime":1198.212,"endTime":1202.272,"body":"You've got a, you've got a two hopper,"},{"startTime":1198.212,"endTime":1202.272,"body":"you've got 14 hours in Minneapolis."},{"startTime":1202.322,"endTime":1206.352,"body":"That's how it, but it was cheap to do that"},{"startTime":1202.322,"endTime":1206.352,"body":"specific booking, which is why she did it."},{"startTime":1206.382,"endTime":1210.002,"body":"Because her mandate was to get"},{"startTime":1206.382,"endTime":1210.002,"body":"the cheapest possible travel."},{"startTime":1210.022,"endTime":1211.642,"body":"But cheapest in what way?"},{"startTime":1211.672,"endTime":1214.416,"body":"Turn a six hour flight"},{"startTime":1211.672,"endTime":1214.416,"body":"into a 23 hour flight."},{"startTime":1214.416,"endTime":1215.402,"body":"So the company's still paying."},{"startTime":1215.402,"endTime":1216.387,"body":"they paid us for travel."},{"startTime":1216.387,"endTime":1216.584,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1216.584,"endTime":1217.778,"body":"So the company's still paying."},{"startTime":1217.828,"endTime":1219.958,"body":"they put us in a hotel That's"},{"startTime":1217.828,"endTime":1219.958,"body":"the other side of town."},{"startTime":1220.158,"endTime":1223.538,"body":"But coming back to this model"},{"startTime":1220.158,"endTime":1223.538,"body":"of centralizing travel, in that"},{"startTime":1223.538,"endTime":1226.518,"body":"case, it didn't last long because"},{"startTime":1223.538,"endTime":1226.518,"body":"everybody protested, right?"},{"startTime":1226.558,"endTime":1229.228,"body":"And they said, this isn't working,"},{"startTime":1226.558,"endTime":1229.228,"body":"we're gonna go direct, anyway."},{"startTime":1229.388,"endTime":1230.088,"body":"You want me to travel?"},{"startTime":1230.118,"endTime":1232.188,"body":"I'm gonna book my own flight"},{"startTime":1230.118,"endTime":1232.188,"body":"because I know I don't want"},{"startTime":1232.188,"endTime":1233.598,"body":"to get out the house at 4am."},{"startTime":1233.943,"endTime":1235.593,"body":"Yeah, I don't care if you're saving money."},{"startTime":1235.653,"endTime":1238.893,"body":"I was gonna say that where this stuff"},{"startTime":1235.653,"endTime":1238.893,"body":"would break down is the minute that"},{"startTime":1238.893,"endTime":1242.813,"body":"sales is inconvenience like I understand"},{"startTime":1238.893,"endTime":1242.813,"body":"like the project managers, they probably"},{"startTime":1242.813,"endTime":1245.543,"body":"could get away with a travel agent"},{"startTime":1242.813,"endTime":1245.543,"body":"is like booking the cheapest stuff."},{"startTime":1245.603,"endTime":1248.423,"body":"And then when they say, okay, we"},{"startTime":1245.603,"endTime":1248.423,"body":"got this internal travel person, now"},{"startTime":1248.423,"endTime":1251.633,"body":"sales has gotta use them, and then"},{"startTime":1248.423,"endTime":1251.633,"body":"sales starts using them, then yeah."},{"startTime":1251.663,"endTime":1254.183,"body":"Then things will be like, wait,"},{"startTime":1251.663,"endTime":1254.183,"body":"oh yeah, this is, that's right."},{"startTime":1254.333,"endTime":1255.218,"body":"This won't work for me anymore."},{"startTime":1255.578,"endTime":1257.508,"body":"so this is, that was the"},{"startTime":1255.578,"endTime":1257.508,"body":"case for the ivory tower."},{"startTime":1257.528,"endTime":1259.938,"body":"I feel we kind of talked about, I"},{"startTime":1257.528,"endTime":1259.938,"body":"mean, we didn't really represent"},{"startTime":1259.938,"endTime":1263.528,"body":"it very well because honestly,"},{"startTime":1259.938,"endTime":1263.528,"body":"it's not really very metric based."},{"startTime":1263.728,"endTime":1265.348,"body":"so the case against the ivory tower."},{"startTime":1265.368,"endTime":1266.548,"body":"the defense rests."},{"startTime":1266.578,"endTime":1268.108,"body":"time to call to the stand, the people."},{"startTime":1268.118,"endTime":1269.248,"body":"Alignment with business goals."},{"startTime":1269.258,"endTime":1270.998,"body":"Let's start with alignment with"},{"startTime":1269.258,"endTime":1270.998,"body":"business goals, because in the"},{"startTime":1270.998,"endTime":1273.438,"body":"ivory tower, the people in the"},{"startTime":1270.998,"endTime":1273.438,"body":"ivory tower are playing a game."},{"startTime":1273.588,"endTime":1275.918,"body":"Now you, you opened up this"},{"startTime":1273.588,"endTime":1275.918,"body":"podcast talking about incentives."},{"startTime":1275.958,"endTime":1276.228,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1276.238,"endTime":1280.338,"body":"The ivory tower's incentives are"},{"startTime":1276.238,"endTime":1280.338,"body":"divorced from reality a lot of times."},{"startTime":1280.348,"endTime":1283.468,"body":"The incentives in the ivory tower"},{"startTime":1280.348,"endTime":1283.468,"body":"is to look good in the ivory tower."},{"startTime":1283.608,"endTime":1285.168,"body":"And to stay living in the ivory tower."},{"startTime":1285.318,"endTime":1286.928,"body":"Because Lord forbid you get cast out."},{"startTime":1287.078,"endTime":1289.378,"body":"Yeah, because you're judged"},{"startTime":1287.078,"endTime":1289.378,"body":"by your peers, right?"},{"startTime":1289.388,"endTime":1291.518,"body":"That are also in the same ivory tower."},{"startTime":1291.818,"endTime":1295.598,"body":"You've never lived a day in"},{"startTime":1291.818,"endTime":1295.598,"body":"those people's shoes that you're"},{"startTime":1295.598,"endTime":1297.138,"body":"impacting and that's a big problem."},{"startTime":1297.288,"endTime":1298.128,"body":"I'll quantify that."},{"startTime":1298.128,"endTime":1299.058,"body":"I know what you're thinking."},{"startTime":1299.058,"endTime":1304.188,"body":"The ivory tower gets funded by all of"},{"startTime":1299.058,"endTime":1304.188,"body":"the businesses that it supports, quote,"},{"startTime":1304.188,"endTime":1305.718,"body":"supports, and all of the business."},{"startTime":1305.718,"endTime":1308.953,"body":"Let's, let's say for example, that you,"},{"startTime":1305.718,"endTime":1308.953,"body":"you're a, a holding company, like the"},{"startTime":1309.138,"endTime":1310.638,"body":"Ivory Tower is a holding company, right?"},{"startTime":1310.638,"endTime":1310.639,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"startTime":1310.703,"endTime":1312.518,"body":"and the business, the the"},{"startTime":1310.703,"endTime":1312.518,"body":"independent businesses."},{"startTime":1312.668,"endTime":1314.308,"body":"Are separate, right?"},{"startTime":1314.578,"endTime":1318.318,"body":"So the, the independent businesses usually"},{"startTime":1314.578,"endTime":1318.318,"body":"have general managers, somebody who's"},{"startTime":1318.318,"endTime":1319.678,"body":"like a head of that business, right?"},{"startTime":1319.828,"endTime":1322.168,"body":"And the heads of those businesses,"},{"startTime":1319.828,"endTime":1322.168,"body":"they have a lot of power."},{"startTime":1322.318,"endTime":1325.798,"body":"I mean, they, you could call the"},{"startTime":1322.318,"endTime":1325.798,"body":"middle managers I think they would"},{"startTime":1325.798,"endTime":1328.596,"body":"be managing directors or something"},{"startTime":1325.798,"endTime":1328.596,"body":"like that, but they're like a"},{"startTime":1328.856,"endTime":1331.046,"body":"tiny step above middle managers."},{"startTime":1331.066,"endTime":1331.156,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1331.156,"endTime":1337.216,"body":"But usually the GMs, they have the ear of"},{"startTime":1331.156,"endTime":1337.216,"body":"the CEO of the holding company above them."},{"startTime":1337.366,"endTime":1337.996,"body":"Or whatever, P."},{"startTime":1337.996,"endTime":1338.246,"body":"E."},{"startTime":1338.246,"endTime":1338.567,"body":"or V."},{"startTime":1338.567,"endTime":1339.784,"body":"C., whatever our situation is."},{"startTime":1339.934,"endTime":1345.294,"body":"And you can only get away with being a"},{"startTime":1339.934,"endTime":1345.294,"body":"bumbling, incompetent ivory tower group."},{"startTime":1345.444,"endTime":1350.634,"body":"Until one of the GMs says I'm"},{"startTime":1345.444,"endTime":1350.634,"body":"not going to pay into your group."},{"startTime":1350.644,"endTime":1352.494,"body":"I'm not going to pay to use"},{"startTime":1350.644,"endTime":1352.494,"body":"your travel consultant anymore."},{"startTime":1352.584,"endTime":1355.534,"body":"I'm going to part time get my own,"},{"startTime":1352.584,"endTime":1355.534,"body":"or I'm going to use this service"},{"startTime":1355.734,"endTime":1356.664,"body":"and I'm going to pay for that."},{"startTime":1356.704,"endTime":1359.784,"body":"I'm going to pay for it out of my margins"},{"startTime":1356.704,"endTime":1359.784,"body":"because I'm not, I'm not paying into it."},{"startTime":1359.784,"endTime":1363.314,"body":"So I'm not giving you, I'm going to"},{"startTime":1359.784,"endTime":1363.314,"body":"figure out whatever I give you overhead."},{"startTime":1363.464,"endTime":1366.804,"body":"And I'm going to deduct from the"},{"startTime":1363.464,"endTime":1366.804,"body":"overhead the cost of the travel people."},{"startTime":1366.944,"endTime":1367.334,"body":"Same thing."},{"startTime":1367.384,"endTime":1369.664,"body":"This is a, this is a"},{"startTime":1367.384,"endTime":1369.664,"body":"slightly more risque, right?"},{"startTime":1369.814,"endTime":1370.914,"body":"I'm not using your development teams."},{"startTime":1370.964,"endTime":1373.504,"body":"I'm going to go get my own"},{"startTime":1370.964,"endTime":1373.504,"body":"offshore development shop."},{"startTime":1373.654,"endTime":1377.344,"body":"And I'm going to stop paying into your"},{"startTime":1373.654,"endTime":1377.344,"body":"it service, project management, PMO."},{"startTime":1377.514,"endTime":1381.344,"body":"Basically, I'm gonna stop paying your"},{"startTime":1377.514,"endTime":1381.344,"body":"PMO, all this money that we deliver to"},{"startTime":1381.344,"endTime":1383.014,"body":"you to deliver software and services."},{"startTime":1383.174,"endTime":1385.974,"body":"I'm taking that and I'm taking that"},{"startTime":1383.174,"endTime":1385.974,"body":"to an offshore company over here."},{"startTime":1386.264,"endTime":1388.894,"body":"And it's actually going to cost"},{"startTime":1386.264,"endTime":1388.894,"body":"me less and I get better service."},{"startTime":1388.894,"endTime":1391.584,"body":"And I've been vetting these contracts"},{"startTime":1388.894,"endTime":1391.584,"body":"with my R and D money or whatever"},{"startTime":1391.674,"endTime":1394.014,"body":"so the minute one person rebels."},{"startTime":1394.164,"endTime":1399.034,"body":"And puts their foot down and the people"},{"startTime":1394.164,"endTime":1399.034,"body":"running this, the, the departments"},{"startTime":1399.034,"endTime":1403.924,"body":"in the ivory tower can't control them"},{"startTime":1399.034,"endTime":1403.924,"body":"because the GM really has all, I mean,"},{"startTime":1403.924,"endTime":1407.374,"body":"the people closest to the work really"},{"startTime":1403.924,"endTime":1407.374,"body":"have more control over the work."},{"startTime":1407.684,"endTime":1410.884,"body":"It's just, they just need that like"},{"startTime":1407.684,"endTime":1410.884,"body":"torches and pitchfork moment to be"},{"startTime":1410.884,"endTime":1412.674,"body":"like, I'm not paying for this service."},{"startTime":1412.674,"endTime":1414.024,"body":"It's not good anymore."},{"startTime":1414.364,"endTime":1416.974,"body":"And then the CEO of the holding"},{"startTime":1414.364,"endTime":1416.974,"body":"company They're they're not like"},{"startTime":1416.974,"endTime":1418.564,"body":"the king of France in this affair."},{"startTime":1418.564,"endTime":1420.834,"body":"they're more like America, like"},{"startTime":1418.564,"endTime":1420.834,"body":"sitting out and be like, well,"},{"startTime":1420.844,"endTime":1422.224,"body":"we'll find out who comes out on top."},{"startTime":1422.384,"endTime":1426.664,"body":"It's a bad situation that can"},{"startTime":1422.384,"endTime":1426.664,"body":"escalate quickly, you know?"},{"startTime":1426.664,"endTime":1428.994,"body":"And then someone in the ivory"},{"startTime":1426.664,"endTime":1428.994,"body":"tower finds themselves cast out."},{"startTime":1429.174,"endTime":1431.614,"body":"It's not pretty because nobody wins."},{"startTime":1431.674,"endTime":1434.364,"body":"People are upset at the GM for rebelling."},{"startTime":1434.564,"endTime":1436.824,"body":"People are upset at the holding"},{"startTime":1434.564,"endTime":1436.824,"body":"company for not acting sooner."},{"startTime":1437.024,"endTime":1439.824,"body":"People are upset at the employees"},{"startTime":1437.024,"endTime":1439.824,"body":"because everything always rolls downhill"},{"startTime":1439.974,"endTime":1442.444,"body":"I have seen this happen at least once."},{"startTime":1442.444,"endTime":1443.454,"body":"Anyway, I don't want to harp on that."},{"startTime":1443.654,"endTime":1447.064,"body":"The point is, aligning with business"},{"startTime":1443.654,"endTime":1447.064,"body":"goals, if the people in the ivory tower"},{"startTime":1447.214,"endTime":1450.744,"body":"fail to align with my business goals"},{"startTime":1447.214,"endTime":1450.744,"body":"and fail to deliver on my business"},{"startTime":1450.744,"endTime":1454.354,"body":"goals, I, the person running the"},{"startTime":1450.744,"endTime":1454.354,"body":"organization, the sub organization"},{"startTime":1454.354,"endTime":1456.224,"body":"I guess, I gotta tread water."},{"startTime":1456.254,"endTime":1458.984,"body":"I can't just drown because I'm waiting"},{"startTime":1456.254,"endTime":1458.984,"body":"on you to make a decision or whatever."},{"startTime":1459.124,"endTime":1461.804,"body":"So I'm gonna find my own way,"},{"startTime":1459.124,"endTime":1461.804,"body":"and there will be contention."},{"startTime":1461.954,"endTime":1466.574,"body":"So rather than doing that, I'd rather"},{"startTime":1461.954,"endTime":1466.574,"body":"just avoid that and just keep all"},{"startTime":1466.574,"endTime":1470.204,"body":"the people aligned with my business"},{"startTime":1466.574,"endTime":1470.204,"body":"and my business goals or my product."},{"startTime":1470.204,"endTime":1473.844,"body":"just keep them all swimming in the"},{"startTime":1470.204,"endTime":1473.844,"body":"stream together and not play this game"},{"startTime":1473.844,"endTime":1478.284,"body":"of, well, a little bit here and we"},{"startTime":1473.844,"endTime":1478.284,"body":"have to ask for people when we need"},{"startTime":1478.284,"endTime":1479.594,"body":"whatever I don't want to play that game."},{"startTime":1479.624,"endTime":1481.074,"body":"I don't want to play"},{"startTime":1479.624,"endTime":1481.074,"body":"games is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1481.224,"endTime":1483.774,"body":"Well, you're in corporate"},{"startTime":1481.224,"endTime":1483.774,"body":"America, you have to play games."},{"startTime":1483.824,"endTime":1484.464,"body":"I don't think so."},{"startTime":1484.514,"endTime":1485.244,"body":"I don't think that's true at all."},{"startTime":1485.264,"endTime":1488.284,"body":"I think, I think the,"},{"startTime":1485.264,"endTime":1488.284,"body":"the, the more you divide."},{"startTime":1488.434,"endTime":1492.044,"body":"The more you divide the people that"},{"startTime":1488.434,"endTime":1492.044,"body":"make the decisions away from the people"},{"startTime":1492.044,"endTime":1495.864,"body":"doing the work, the terrible, the"},{"startTime":1492.044,"endTime":1495.864,"body":"more terrible your business is run."},{"startTime":1496.014,"endTime":1496.634,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1496.714,"endTime":1497.414,"body":"So true."},{"startTime":1497.684,"endTime":1499.494,"body":"You just don't see it"},{"startTime":1497.684,"endTime":1499.494,"body":"that way at the time."},{"startTime":1499.494,"endTime":1502.644,"body":"Maybe it depends on, depends on whose"},{"startTime":1499.494,"endTime":1502.644,"body":"point of view you're looking at it from."},{"startTime":1502.794,"endTime":1505.394,"body":"You don't see it that way because"},{"startTime":1502.794,"endTime":1505.394,"body":"if you're in the ivory tower,"},{"startTime":1505.484,"endTime":1508.684,"body":"basically everybody else down because"},{"startTime":1505.484,"endTime":1508.684,"body":"they're in the tower, everybody"},{"startTime":1508.684,"endTime":1510.284,"body":"else down there are rebellious."},{"startTime":1510.434,"endTime":1514.554,"body":"So then what do you do to control and if"},{"startTime":1510.434,"endTime":1514.554,"body":"you can't control, replace them, right?"},{"startTime":1514.564,"endTime":1515.794,"body":"that's problematic again."},{"startTime":1515.804,"endTime":1517.304,"body":"Cause you're not, you're replacing them."},{"startTime":1517.304,"endTime":1518.944,"body":"Not with people that align"},{"startTime":1517.304,"endTime":1518.944,"body":"with your business goals."},{"startTime":1519.094,"endTime":1521.374,"body":"You're replacing 'em with people"},{"startTime":1519.094,"endTime":1521.374,"body":"that will do what you say, right?"},{"startTime":1521.374,"endTime":1521.554,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1521.554,"endTime":1523.024,"body":"That, that's a very ivory tower decision."},{"startTime":1523.024,"endTime":1525.994,"body":"But you can't really muck around"},{"startTime":1523.024,"endTime":1525.994,"body":"in businesses when you're in"},{"startTime":1525.994,"endTime":1529.594,"body":"the ivory tower because you'll,"},{"startTime":1525.994,"endTime":1529.594,"body":"you'll quickly lose your hold."},{"startTime":1529.744,"endTime":1532.444,"body":"the amount of interference that you"},{"startTime":1529.744,"endTime":1532.444,"body":"can do from the ivory tower is limited."},{"startTime":1532.594,"endTime":1532.774,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1532.804,"endTime":1534.394,"body":"that's an interesting topic to talk about."},{"startTime":1534.394,"endTime":1537.324,"body":"it's not this podcast, but"},{"startTime":1534.394,"endTime":1537.324,"body":"that's management meddling."},{"startTime":1537.444,"endTime":1538.944,"body":"That's a Deming thing."},{"startTime":1539.184,"endTime":1540.504,"body":"We'll go into it on the Deming podcast."},{"startTime":1540.654,"endTime":1541.544,"body":"we have one coming up."},{"startTime":1541.544,"endTime":1545.174,"body":"Yeah, so stub out three hours out"},{"startTime":1541.544,"endTime":1545.174,"body":"of your day It'll be a marathon"},{"startTime":1545.214,"endTime":1546.354,"body":"for sure management meddling."},{"startTime":1546.384,"endTime":1550.614,"body":"Yeah, so a process that's in statistical"},{"startTime":1546.384,"endTime":1550.614,"body":"control And then management coming"},{"startTime":1550.614,"endTime":1553.934,"body":"in and not understanding that the"},{"startTime":1550.614,"endTime":1553.934,"body":"process is in statistical control"},{"startTime":1553.934,"endTime":1556.304,"body":"because they haven't measured anything"},{"startTime":1553.934,"endTime":1556.304,"body":"They're just making assumptions."},{"startTime":1556.364,"endTime":1560.274,"body":"Yeah, so they're messing around with a"},{"startTime":1556.364,"endTime":1560.274,"body":"process that's in statistical control"},{"startTime":1560.424,"endTime":1562.374,"body":"And they think that it's not in control."},{"startTime":1562.394,"endTime":1564.894,"body":"They think that special circumstances"},{"startTime":1562.394,"endTime":1564.894,"body":"are affecting the process."},{"startTime":1565.004,"endTime":1568.064,"body":"So they meddle, they muck"},{"startTime":1565.004,"endTime":1568.064,"body":"around in the process."},{"startTime":1568.124,"endTime":1570.364,"body":"Right, which in turn makes"},{"startTime":1568.124,"endTime":1570.364,"body":"it go out of control."},{"startTime":1570.384,"endTime":1570.784,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1570.934,"endTime":1571.964,"body":"The positive feedback loop."},{"startTime":1572.074,"endTime":1575.474,"body":"I don't think we need to measure,"},{"startTime":1572.074,"endTime":1575.474,"body":"run studies, do whatever, to agree"},{"startTime":1575.494,"endTime":1580.474,"body":"that If the decision making process"},{"startTime":1575.494,"endTime":1580.474,"body":"lives closest to the people doing the"},{"startTime":1580.504,"endTime":1582.634,"body":"work, you get faster decision making."},{"startTime":1582.784,"endTime":1585.914,"body":"And the people that are closest"},{"startTime":1582.784,"endTime":1585.914,"body":"to the work can make more"},{"startTime":1585.944,"endTime":1588.054,"body":"complex decisions faster."},{"startTime":1588.204,"endTime":1590.764,"body":"And more effective"},{"startTime":1588.204,"endTime":1590.764,"body":"decisions as well, right?"},{"startTime":1590.764,"endTime":1593.714,"body":"Accountability is a dirty word"},{"startTime":1590.764,"endTime":1593.714,"body":"when you're in the ivory tower."},{"startTime":1593.864,"endTime":1596.934,"body":"Accountability means, accountability"},{"startTime":1593.864,"endTime":1596.934,"body":"is about blame in the ivory tower."},{"startTime":1597.234,"endTime":1599.014,"body":"Hey, I'm gonna hold you accountable."},{"startTime":1599.164,"endTime":1602.794,"body":"Like accountability when I'm a product"},{"startTime":1599.164,"endTime":1602.794,"body":"manager running a product with teams"},{"startTime":1602.844,"endTime":1606.014,"body":"that, that we all work together"},{"startTime":1602.844,"endTime":1606.014,"body":"to build the best product, deliver"},{"startTime":1606.014,"endTime":1607.264,"body":"the best service to the customer."},{"startTime":1607.414,"endTime":1610.204,"body":"Accountability is about"},{"startTime":1607.414,"endTime":1610.204,"body":"me taking ownership."},{"startTime":1610.354,"endTime":1612.264,"body":"Of the customer success,"},{"startTime":1610.354,"endTime":1612.264,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1612.314,"endTime":1615.924,"body":"it's a different relationship with"},{"startTime":1612.314,"endTime":1615.924,"body":"accountability depending on where you're"},{"startTime":1615.924,"endTime":1620.714,"body":"parked it's different than responsibility,"},{"startTime":1615.924,"endTime":1620.714,"body":"right which is often thrust upon"},{"startTime":1620.714,"endTime":1622.854,"body":"you nobody can make you accountable."},{"startTime":1622.854,"endTime":1625.104,"body":"They can say this is what"},{"startTime":1622.854,"endTime":1625.104,"body":"your brief is, right?"},{"startTime":1625.124,"endTime":1628.999,"body":"But you have to make yourself accountable"},{"startTime":1625.124,"endTime":1628.999,"body":"for something whereas responsibility is"},{"startTime":1629.149,"endTime":1630.809,"body":"This is your responsibility, go do it."},{"startTime":1630.829,"endTime":1634.999,"body":"Well, there's no, so if the"},{"startTime":1630.829,"endTime":1634.999,"body":"accountability is in the business unit,"},{"startTime":1635.039,"endTime":1639.129,"body":"in the line of service, basically,"},{"startTime":1635.039,"endTime":1639.129,"body":"in this stream, value stream, I"},{"startTime":1639.129,"endTime":1639.999,"body":"don't know, there's lots of terms."},{"startTime":1640.149,"endTime":1642.519,"body":"If the accountability is with the"},{"startTime":1640.149,"endTime":1642.519,"body":"team doing the work, discovering"},{"startTime":1642.519,"endTime":1643.459,"body":"the work, producing the work."},{"startTime":1643.609,"endTime":1646.539,"body":"there's not an opportunity for blame"},{"startTime":1643.609,"endTime":1646.539,"body":"shifting if you have to go back up"},{"startTime":1646.539,"endTime":1649.769,"body":"to the ivory tower to ask for workers"},{"startTime":1646.539,"endTime":1649.769,"body":"and then they temporarily join the"},{"startTime":1649.769,"endTime":1652.749,"body":"business unit and then come back, or"},{"startTime":1649.769,"endTime":1652.749,"body":"maybe you have to wait on them maybe"},{"startTime":1652.749,"endTime":1655.919,"body":"they weren't successful, they joined"},{"startTime":1652.749,"endTime":1655.919,"body":"the company to deliver whatever, and"},{"startTime":1655.919,"endTime":1658.979,"body":"then, They went back to the ivory tower,"},{"startTime":1655.919,"endTime":1658.979,"body":"but then the thing wasn't successful."},{"startTime":1659.259,"endTime":1661.599,"body":"Now the ivory tower is going"},{"startTime":1659.259,"endTime":1661.599,"body":"to be defending their people."},{"startTime":1661.599,"endTime":1663.979,"body":"There's a lot of blame, some"},{"startTime":1661.599,"endTime":1663.979,"body":"games that are happening."},{"startTime":1663.989,"endTime":1666.289,"body":"And again, like none of this"},{"startTime":1663.989,"endTime":1666.289,"body":"helps me as a product manager."},{"startTime":1666.439,"endTime":1669.489,"body":"I don't need to play a game with blame."},{"startTime":1669.579,"endTime":1671.849,"body":"I just need people"},{"startTime":1669.579,"endTime":1671.849,"body":"dedicated to doing the work."},{"startTime":1672.109,"endTime":1675.459,"body":"As from a product manager's"},{"startTime":1672.109,"endTime":1675.459,"body":"perspective, it's just adding noise."},{"startTime":1675.639,"endTime":1679.759,"body":"That's all it is you know, cause the"},{"startTime":1675.639,"endTime":1679.759,"body":"customer doesn't care whose fault it was."},{"startTime":1679.909,"endTime":1680.979,"body":"Within the organization."},{"startTime":1680.989,"endTime":1682.999,"body":"They just know they didn't"},{"startTime":1680.989,"endTime":1682.999,"body":"get value and they wanted it."},{"startTime":1683.109,"endTime":1689.359,"body":"Yeah the other thing we did an episode on"},{"startTime":1683.109,"endTime":1689.359,"body":"Kanban and one of the things in combine"},{"startTime":1689.459,"endTime":1694.169,"body":"is Analyzing your policies through"},{"startTime":1689.459,"endTime":1694.169,"body":"your streams of work or through I'm"},{"startTime":1694.169,"endTime":1695.659,"body":"sorry through your lanes on your board."},{"startTime":1695.659,"endTime":1698.449,"body":"Yeah Columns, that's what they're called"},{"startTime":1695.659,"endTime":1698.449,"body":"through your columns on your board"},{"startTime":1698.599,"endTime":1701.449,"body":"so that You can identify you do that."},{"startTime":1701.449,"endTime":1704.509,"body":"You optimize your columns and you optimize"},{"startTime":1701.449,"endTime":1704.509,"body":"your policies from column to column."},{"startTime":1704.759,"endTime":1706.959,"body":"And you do that so that"},{"startTime":1704.759,"endTime":1706.959,"body":"you can reduce bottlenecks."},{"startTime":1706.969,"endTime":1710.629,"body":"You can understand where your bottlenecks"},{"startTime":1706.969,"endTime":1710.629,"body":"are, understand the flow to see"},{"startTime":1710.749,"endTime":1714.699,"body":"where your flow is impeded and then"},{"startTime":1710.749,"endTime":1714.699,"body":"work on reducing those bottlenecks."},{"startTime":1714.849,"endTime":1718.724,"body":"I feel with the ivory tower in the cycle"},{"startTime":1714.849,"endTime":1718.724,"body":"of all that, that I just described oh,"},{"startTime":1718.724,"endTime":1721.664,"body":"we, now we got to wait for a person and"},{"startTime":1718.724,"endTime":1721.664,"body":"the person joins, it might not be the"},{"startTime":1721.664,"endTime":1724.454,"body":"right person and they might not, now they"},{"startTime":1721.664,"endTime":1724.454,"body":"got to understand our business context."},{"startTime":1724.634,"endTime":1726.534,"body":"They don't know anything about"},{"startTime":1724.634,"endTime":1726.534,"body":"our customers,  all that kind"},{"startTime":1726.534,"endTime":1729.624,"body":"of stuff you're just introducing"},{"startTime":1726.534,"endTime":1729.624,"body":"another bottleneck that, why?"},{"startTime":1729.664,"endTime":1730.394,"body":"We don't need that."},{"startTime":1730.544,"endTime":1735.614,"body":"In the lean kind of concept where Kanban"},{"startTime":1730.544,"endTime":1735.614,"body":"originated, you're introducing delays."},{"startTime":1735.764,"endTime":1736.014,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1736.114,"endTime":1740.134,"body":"And also you don't have the right"},{"startTime":1736.114,"endTime":1740.134,"body":"people looking at that board and"},{"startTime":1740.364,"endTime":1742.764,"body":"because they're not accountable,"},{"startTime":1740.364,"endTime":1742.764,"body":"you've got this distance, right?"},{"startTime":1742.914,"endTime":1747.694,"body":"So one of the things that the policies"},{"startTime":1742.914,"endTime":1747.694,"body":"also do is they add, they ensure quality."},{"startTime":1747.844,"endTime":1751.884,"body":"Something cannot be moved out of a column"},{"startTime":1747.844,"endTime":1751.884,"body":"into another until you know, that rigorous"},{"startTime":1753.724,"endTime":1756.074,"body":"you know, the other thing we talked"},{"startTime":1753.724,"endTime":1756.074,"body":"about this on a previous podcast, but"},{"startTime":1756.074,"endTime":1757.804,"body":"I can't remember which podcast it was."},{"startTime":1757.804,"endTime":1761.424,"body":"It's been a long time since we"},{"startTime":1757.804,"endTime":1761.424,"body":"said when people temporarily join"},{"startTime":1761.424,"endTime":1763.404,"body":"your team and then hop off, right?"},{"startTime":1763.404,"endTime":1766.514,"body":"Because they're going back to the holding"},{"startTime":1763.404,"endTime":1766.514,"body":"company or going back to the ivory tower."},{"startTime":1766.664,"endTime":1767.894,"body":"Whatever learnings."},{"startTime":1768.044,"endTime":1770.804,"body":"That you had to come to whatever"},{"startTime":1768.044,"endTime":1770.804,"body":"discoveries you had to come to."},{"startTime":1771.124,"endTime":1773.984,"body":"They're taking some of that"},{"startTime":1771.124,"endTime":1773.984,"body":"with them away from your team."},{"startTime":1774.134,"endTime":1777.634,"body":"And when you add like QA, for example,"},{"startTime":1774.134,"endTime":1777.634,"body":"if we don't have a QA team, a testers"},{"startTime":1777.634,"endTime":1780.704,"body":"assigned to our team for a period"},{"startTime":1777.634,"endTime":1780.704,"body":"of you know, a period of weeks or"},{"startTime":1780.704,"endTime":1783.834,"body":"whatever, and they, they test the stuff"},{"startTime":1780.704,"endTime":1783.834,"body":"for us and then they go back to the"},{"startTime":1783.834,"endTime":1787.584,"body":"pool of QA and the next time we put"},{"startTime":1783.834,"endTime":1787.584,"body":"out a big release let's say we're like"},{"startTime":1787.594,"endTime":1791.374,"body":"Airbnb, for example, they're constantly"},{"startTime":1787.594,"endTime":1791.374,"body":"Releasing updates to their software."},{"startTime":1791.524,"endTime":1795.344,"body":"They just hold them all because"},{"startTime":1791.524,"endTime":1795.344,"body":"they want a big marketing pop."},{"startTime":1795.574,"endTime":1798.614,"body":"They want a big marketing push"},{"startTime":1795.574,"endTime":1798.614,"body":"when they push out their versions."},{"startTime":1798.614,"endTime":1801.554,"body":"So they only push out the versions, I"},{"startTime":1798.614,"endTime":1801.554,"body":"think twice a year or something like that."},{"startTime":1801.704,"endTime":1803.444,"body":"It doesn't mean they're"},{"startTime":1801.704,"endTime":1803.444,"body":"not testing, right?"},{"startTime":1803.504,"endTime":1805.004,"body":"It doesn't mean they're not releasing."},{"startTime":1805.004,"endTime":1805.794,"body":"They're releasing."},{"startTime":1805.804,"endTime":1809.104,"body":"It's just, they don't send it"},{"startTime":1805.804,"endTime":1809.104,"body":"to production to the app stores"},{"startTime":1809.104,"endTime":1809.914,"body":"and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1810.064,"endTime":1813.914,"body":"But let's pretend, for example,"},{"startTime":1810.064,"endTime":1813.914,"body":"we're constantly testing, but we"},{"startTime":1813.914,"endTime":1815.424,"body":"only release once every so often."},{"startTime":1815.424,"endTime":1818.844,"body":"Well, in that release, we're doing"},{"startTime":1815.424,"endTime":1818.844,"body":"the big integration tests, and"},{"startTime":1818.844,"endTime":1821.324,"body":"we're doing the full end to end"},{"startTime":1818.844,"endTime":1821.324,"body":"type of test of our application."},{"startTime":1821.584,"endTime":1823.014,"body":"Maybe they do quarterly releases?"},{"startTime":1823.164,"endTime":1824.184,"body":"Let's pretend it's quarterly releases."},{"startTime":1824.529,"endTime":1827.859,"body":"So let's pretend I was on a"},{"startTime":1824.529,"endTime":1827.859,"body":"hike and then I decided that I"},{"startTime":1827.859,"endTime":1829.309,"body":"want to do quarterly releases."},{"startTime":1829.459,"endTime":1834.899,"body":"So every quarter we're requesting from"},{"startTime":1829.459,"endTime":1834.899,"body":"the testing ivory tower business segment,"},{"startTime":1835.079,"endTime":1838.679,"body":"Hey, we need a tester to run through"},{"startTime":1835.079,"endTime":1838.679,"body":"the quarterly release test plan, full"},{"startTime":1838.679,"endTime":1840.589,"body":"in integration end to end, whatever."},{"startTime":1840.659,"endTime":1843.659,"body":"And then we're getting, maybe we get"},{"startTime":1840.659,"endTime":1843.659,"body":"the same person quarter to quarter,"},{"startTime":1843.659,"endTime":1844.879,"body":"but maybe we get a different person."},{"startTime":1845.029,"endTime":1848.009,"body":"Is the quality of the tests the same?"},{"startTime":1848.039,"endTime":1851.889,"body":"I mean, theoretically, if all the test"},{"startTime":1848.039,"endTime":1851.889,"body":"cases are being exercised in the way"},{"startTime":1851.889,"endTime":1854.969,"body":"they're being written, theoretically,"},{"startTime":1851.889,"endTime":1854.969,"body":"it shouldn't matter who the person"},{"startTime":1854.969,"endTime":1857.049,"body":"is, but that's not really true."},{"startTime":1857.139,"endTime":1860.799,"body":"No, it's not true because other"},{"startTime":1857.139,"endTime":1860.799,"body":"than just tests are binary, right?"},{"startTime":1860.799,"endTime":1861.799,"body":"They either pass or fail."},{"startTime":1861.859,"endTime":1864.829,"body":"They don't kind of sort of pass so"},{"startTime":1861.859,"endTime":1864.829,"body":"that, from that perspective, you"},{"startTime":1864.829,"endTime":1866.139,"body":"could say, well, you could get any."},{"startTime":1866.289,"endTime":1867.459,"body":"Monkey to press a button?"},{"startTime":1867.459,"endTime":1867.939,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1868.119,"endTime":1871.299,"body":"The the point is, if you're doing"},{"startTime":1868.119,"endTime":1871.299,"body":"this, you, that is, you just"},{"startTime":1871.299,"endTime":1872.554,"body":"hit, that is their viewpoint."},{"startTime":1872.584,"endTime":1872.956,"body":"That is their viewpoint."},{"startTime":1872.961,"endTime":1874.389,"body":"That's the ivory tower's viewpoint."},{"startTime":1874.389,"endTime":1875.079,"body":"That's the Yes, yes."},{"startTime":1875.079,"endTime":1877.919,"body":"The benefit of someone with"},{"startTime":1875.079,"endTime":1877.919,"body":"a a good test skill set."},{"startTime":1878.069,"endTime":1881.549,"body":"They can think like the"},{"startTime":1878.069,"endTime":1881.549,"body":"customer, they understand how"},{"startTime":1881.759,"endTime":1883.504,"body":"the customers use the software."},{"startTime":1883.654,"endTime":1884.634,"body":"They understand metrics."},{"startTime":1884.634,"endTime":1885.734,"body":"they've researched these things."},{"startTime":1885.974,"endTime":1889.924,"body":"They're not just running test scripts"},{"startTime":1885.974,"endTime":1889.924,"body":"and reporting on the F they're giving"},{"startTime":1889.924,"endTime":1893.304,"body":"suggestions about like, Hey most"},{"startTime":1889.924,"endTime":1893.304,"body":"customers in this segment like the way"},{"startTime":1893.304,"endTime":1896.694,"body":"you've lined the buttons up, someone"},{"startTime":1893.304,"endTime":1896.694,"body":"that's in this specific segment, I've"},{"startTime":1896.694,"endTime":1900.094,"body":"got to go through all this workflow,"},{"startTime":1896.694,"endTime":1900.094,"body":"whereas normal customers don't so"},{"startTime":1900.304,"endTime":1903.054,"body":"maybe if we're thinking about this"},{"startTime":1900.304,"endTime":1903.054,"body":"specific customer, this is not the best."},{"startTime":1903.174,"endTime":1904.644,"body":"They can think beyond the test."},{"startTime":1904.969,"endTime":1907.839,"body":"Right to help product make"},{"startTime":1904.969,"endTime":1907.839,"body":"better decisions or not."},{"startTime":1907.859,"endTime":1910.779,"body":"I mean, they're just raising a"},{"startTime":1907.859,"endTime":1910.779,"body":"conversation that needs to happen."},{"startTime":1910.929,"endTime":1913.079,"body":"You know, that's invaluable in my opinion."},{"startTime":1913.079,"endTime":1916.269,"body":"But you know, the other thing"},{"startTime":1913.079,"endTime":1916.269,"body":"is knowledge, like just simply"},{"startTime":1916.419,"endTime":1917.749,"body":"process knowledge, right?"},{"startTime":1918.019,"endTime":1919.129,"body":"Whenever we run."},{"startTime":1919.279,"endTime":1923.849,"body":"These tests every quarter in this"},{"startTime":1919.279,"endTime":1923.849,"body":"example, we find that that's a fine"},{"startTime":1923.849,"endTime":1925.859,"body":"when you run them on a staging thing."},{"startTime":1925.859,"endTime":1928.479,"body":"But then when you put this"},{"startTime":1925.859,"endTime":1928.479,"body":"thing in production, it balks."},{"startTime":1928.489,"endTime":1929.229,"body":"Why is that?"},{"startTime":1929.379,"endTime":1931.079,"body":"And they figure out that right?"},{"startTime":1931.199,"endTime":1932.209,"body":"and then they're gone."},{"startTime":1932.339,"endTime":1935.609,"body":"somebody else comes in and they have"},{"startTime":1932.339,"endTime":1935.609,"body":"to rediscover all that and stumble over"},{"startTime":1935.759,"endTime":1939.399,"body":"everything that was already discovered"},{"startTime":1935.759,"endTime":1939.399,"body":"again from a testing perspective."},{"startTime":1939.469,"endTime":1939.669,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1939.969,"endTime":1942.139,"body":"So yeah, it's, it's just not a good model."},{"startTime":1942.279,"endTime":1944.829,"body":"You ever work with like a support,"},{"startTime":1942.279,"endTime":1944.829,"body":"like development support team"},{"startTime":1944.829,"endTime":1947.159,"body":"that they basically catch bugs"},{"startTime":1944.829,"endTime":1947.159,"body":"in production and fix bugs."},{"startTime":1947.319,"endTime":1949.239,"body":"It's not a great process, , yeah,"},{"startTime":1947.319,"endTime":1949.239,"body":"it's like a bug fix team."},{"startTime":1949.239,"endTime":1949.539,"body":"Team."},{"startTime":1949.539,"endTime":1952.764,"body":"Like a, like A-A-K-T-L-O team or"},{"startTime":1949.539,"endTime":1952.764,"body":"like a hypercare, you know what mean?"},{"startTime":1952.764,"endTime":1954.009,"body":"Like a big project management."},{"startTime":1954.009,"endTime":1956.919,"body":"They do hypercare period BAU"},{"startTime":1954.009,"endTime":1956.919,"body":"team, and usually the, all these"},{"startTime":1956.919,"endTime":1959.349,"body":"different phrases, the hyper, the"},{"startTime":1956.919,"endTime":1959.349,"body":"hypercare developers are like."},{"startTime":1959.499,"endTime":1962.319,"body":"The B squad, like they're not bored."},{"startTime":1962.349,"endTime":1964.869,"body":"They're not the 18 that way."},{"startTime":1964.869,"endTime":1966.159,"body":"They're not, they're not a players."},{"startTime":1966.169,"endTime":1966.679,"body":"Let's put it that way."},{"startTime":1966.949,"endTime":1971.909,"body":"And you know, you're hoping you get your"},{"startTime":1966.949,"endTime":1971.909,"body":"favorite hyper care developer when you"},{"startTime":1971.909,"endTime":1975.709,"body":"report a bug, you're hoping they take your"},{"startTime":1971.909,"endTime":1975.709,"body":"bug and you're like, Oh, I got this guy."},{"startTime":1975.709,"endTime":1976.579,"body":"Oh man."},{"startTime":1976.579,"endTime":1978.939,"body":"And you know, that kind of stuff,"},{"startTime":1976.579,"endTime":1978.939,"body":"like there's no room for that."},{"startTime":1978.979,"endTime":1979.849,"body":"You know, there's no room for that."},{"startTime":1979.859,"endTime":1981.379,"body":"If I had somebody embedded on my team."},{"startTime":1981.529,"endTime":1985.299,"body":"Who when we didn't even talk about"},{"startTime":1981.529,"endTime":1985.299,"body":"sometimes the ivory tower hires the people"},{"startTime":1985.309,"endTime":1988.659,"body":"they want to hire Oh sure, you don't even"},{"startTime":1985.309,"endTime":1988.659,"body":"get often you don't even get a choice like"},{"startTime":1988.859,"endTime":1990.999,"body":"oh, what kind of testers are you hiring?"},{"startTime":1991.289,"endTime":1993.989,"body":"So when we get a tester, they"},{"startTime":1991.289,"endTime":1993.989,"body":"don't you know, they're completely"},{"startTime":1994.009,"endTime":1997.629,"body":"insufficient For what we really need"},{"startTime":1994.009,"endTime":1997.629,"body":"to that's a big, there's a lot of big"},{"startTime":1997.639,"endTime":1999.519,"body":"problems here that are not on my list."},{"startTime":1999.539,"endTime":2002.789,"body":"It would, this podcast would be two"},{"startTime":1999.539,"endTime":2002.789,"body":"hours if I went down all the rabbit"},{"startTime":2002.789,"endTime":2004.019,"body":"holes that I wanted to go down."},{"startTime":2004.169,"endTime":2004.999,"body":"We don't have time for it."},{"startTime":2005.049,"endTime":2005.679,"body":"Conway's law."},{"startTime":2005.789,"endTime":2008.549,"body":"Conway's law, the structure of a"},{"startTime":2005.789,"endTime":2008.549,"body":"system tends to mirror the structure"},{"startTime":2008.549,"endTime":2010.249,"body":"of the organizations that create them."},{"startTime":2010.399,"endTime":2015.359,"body":"So if the ivory tower is this command"},{"startTime":2010.399,"endTime":2015.359,"body":"and control apparatus, like I I've seen"},{"startTime":2015.459,"endTime":2019.699,"body":"in the past that companies that have"},{"startTime":2015.459,"endTime":2019.699,"body":"ivory towers, they tend to have either"},{"startTime":2019.929,"endTime":2024.559,"body":"a chaotic infrastructure, That's always"},{"startTime":2019.929,"endTime":2024.559,"body":"falling over or they have a mega monolith."},{"startTime":2024.709,"endTime":2027.379,"body":"It's like And I know neither"},{"startTime":2024.709,"endTime":2027.379,"body":"of those are desirable Right."},{"startTime":2027.379,"endTime":2028.929,"body":"So yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2028.929,"endTime":2029.309,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2029.359,"endTime":2029.949,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2029.949,"endTime":2030.899,"body":"So conway nailed it."},{"startTime":2030.899,"endTime":2037.099,"body":"His law goes back a while and even today"},{"startTime":2030.899,"endTime":2037.099,"body":"it is absolutely true organizations"},{"startTime":2037.289,"endTime":2042.169,"body":"form themselves eventually to"},{"startTime":2037.289,"endTime":2042.169,"body":"reflect the mindset and the structure"},{"startTime":2042.179,"endTime":2045.689,"body":"right and so the other side of it"},{"startTime":2042.179,"endTime":2045.689,"body":"is then what's the alternative?"},{"startTime":2045.839,"endTime":2046.229,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2046.429,"endTime":2046.999,"body":"To that."},{"startTime":2047.289,"endTime":2050.499,"body":"You either have chaos or you"},{"startTime":2047.289,"endTime":2050.499,"body":"have monolith that isn't nimble."},{"startTime":2050.639,"endTime":2051.249,"body":"What's the alternative?"},{"startTime":2051.309,"endTime":2052.479,"body":"Storm the Bastille."},{"startTime":2052.509,"endTime":2053.439,"body":"That's what the alternative is."},{"startTime":2053.439,"endTime":2054.639,"body":"Storm the Bastille, you don't need that."},{"startTime":2054.779,"endTime":2058.009,"body":"I mean, I would think that if you"},{"startTime":2054.779,"endTime":2058.009,"body":"have an ivory tower, all of your"},{"startTime":2058.009,"endTime":2061.209,"body":"sub organizations, all of your sub"},{"startTime":2058.009,"endTime":2061.209,"body":"organizations and groups are going to"},{"startTime":2061.209,"endTime":2062.529,"body":"start looking like the ivory tower."},{"startTime":2062.529,"endTime":2063.319,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":2063.349,"endTime":2066.829,"body":"And then that organizational,"},{"startTime":2063.349,"endTime":2066.829,"body":"that bad organizational design"},{"startTime":2067.029,"endTime":2068.339,"body":"will start trickling down."},{"startTime":2068.489,"endTime":2072.379,"body":"And having more influence until your"},{"startTime":2068.489,"endTime":2072.379,"body":"business, your smaller businesses or"},{"startTime":2072.379,"endTime":2074.119,"body":"whatever, they start becoming ineffective."},{"startTime":2074.119,"endTime":2074.969,"body":"It's like weeds."},{"startTime":2075.129,"endTime":2076.059,"body":"They grow."},{"startTime":2076.139,"endTime":2076.409,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2076.469,"endTime":2076.789,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2077.089,"endTime":2077.139,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2077.339,"endTime":2078.449,"body":"So what's the alternative?"},{"startTime":2078.599,"endTime":2079.889,"body":"A distributed model?"},{"startTime":2079.979,"endTime":2080.949,"body":"Just don't do any of this."},{"startTime":2081.019,"endTime":2082.819,"body":"I would keep in the Take a vitamin."},{"startTime":2082.829,"endTime":2083.389,"body":"Don't do any of this."},{"startTime":2083.439,"endTime":2086.299,"body":"I would keep in the overhead,"},{"startTime":2083.439,"endTime":2086.299,"body":"I would keep only the absolute"},{"startTime":2086.309,"endTime":2088.799,"body":"necessary things that need to be"},{"startTime":2086.309,"endTime":2088.799,"body":"in the overhead, in the overhead."},{"startTime":2088.959,"endTime":2091.239,"body":"Honestly, I'd put nothing in"},{"startTime":2088.959,"endTime":2091.239,"body":"the ivory tower if it were up"},{"startTime":2091.239,"endTime":2092.649,"body":"to me, but it's not up to me."},{"startTime":2092.779,"endTime":2096.139,"body":"I was just gonna say, look, other"},{"startTime":2092.779,"endTime":2096.139,"body":"than, so we talked about how, Ideal"},{"startTime":2096.139,"endTime":2098.129,"body":"cases, teams, they don't have HR."},{"startTime":2098.149,"endTime":2101.649,"body":"They don't have any of these"},{"startTime":2098.149,"endTime":2101.649,"body":"functions that they need on the team."},{"startTime":2101.799,"endTime":2102.129,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2102.279,"endTime":2106.139,"body":"So if you were to design a"},{"startTime":2102.279,"endTime":2106.139,"body":"structure, an ideal structure"},{"startTime":2106.189,"endTime":2108.809,"body":"what would you keep outside the"},{"startTime":2106.189,"endTime":2108.809,"body":"team is what I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":2108.839,"endTime":2111.589,"body":"this is a difficult question"},{"startTime":2108.839,"endTime":2111.589,"body":"because it's very contextual, you"},{"startTime":2111.599,"endTime":2114.639,"body":"almost need, let's pretend Brian"},{"startTime":2111.599,"endTime":2114.639,"body":"and Ohm's holding company, right?"},{"startTime":2114.639,"endTime":2117.979,"body":"We, someone gave us a ton of money cause"},{"startTime":2114.639,"endTime":2117.979,"body":"they were a very bored billionaire."},{"startTime":2118.319,"endTime":2122.049,"body":"Any of you bored billionaires that are"},{"startTime":2118.319,"endTime":2122.049,"body":"out there, feel free, I'm going to lay"},{"startTime":2122.049,"endTime":2123.299,"body":"out a business plan for you right now."},{"startTime":2123.629,"endTime":2127.019,"body":"So Brian and Ohm get a couple"},{"startTime":2123.629,"endTime":2127.019,"body":"billion dollars just sitting around."},{"startTime":2127.069,"endTime":2128.969,"body":"So what I would do is you would need."},{"startTime":2129.119,"endTime":2132.369,"body":"At the top of the business, you would"},{"startTime":2129.119,"endTime":2132.369,"body":"need a visionary and an integrator."},{"startTime":2132.559,"endTime":2135.299,"body":"You, so straight out of the"},{"startTime":2132.559,"endTime":2135.299,"body":"traction book, every startup has"},{"startTime":2135.379,"endTime":2137.469,"body":"a, a visionary and an integrator."},{"startTime":2137.469,"endTime":2140.229,"body":"You have an operations person and"},{"startTime":2137.469,"endTime":2140.229,"body":"you have an ideas person, right?"},{"startTime":2140.229,"endTime":2142.989,"body":"You got your Steve Jobs and your"},{"startTime":2140.229,"endTime":2142.989,"body":"Wozniak, like that, that's what you have."},{"startTime":2142.989,"endTime":2143.249,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2143.469,"endTime":2146.679,"body":"If you're going to be acquiring companies"},{"startTime":2143.469,"endTime":2146.679,"body":"and spinning them off to do their own"},{"startTime":2146.679,"endTime":2150.109,"body":"thing I assume there's a reason why"},{"startTime":2146.679,"endTime":2150.109,"body":"you bring all these companies together"},{"startTime":2150.109,"endTime":2153.659,"body":"under one house The only reason that"},{"startTime":2150.109,"endTime":2153.659,"body":"you would bring companies together is"},{"startTime":2153.659,"endTime":2155.699,"body":"because they're very very very alike."},{"startTime":2155.849,"endTime":2160.039,"body":"I would think you know, so If they're"},{"startTime":2155.849,"endTime":2160.039,"body":"alike and they're operating well"},{"startTime":2160.189,"endTime":2163.389,"body":"Maybe you can look at the worst"},{"startTime":2160.189,"endTime":2163.389,"body":"operating parts of the company"},{"startTime":2163.429,"endTime":2165.379,"body":"and maybe take that consolidation."},{"startTime":2165.529,"endTime":2166.589,"body":"Yeah, that makes sense."},{"startTime":2166.589,"endTime":2169.669,"body":"If you're acquiring companies, let's"},{"startTime":2166.589,"endTime":2169.669,"body":"say in the same vertical, right?"},{"startTime":2169.819,"endTime":2172.399,"body":"So you buy a competitor,"},{"startTime":2169.819,"endTime":2172.399,"body":"so you don't need to off."},{"startTime":2172.439,"endTime":2173.299,"body":"That's a standard case."},{"startTime":2173.299,"endTime":2173.919,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2174.069,"endTime":2178.969,"body":"I think there are specific functions that"},{"startTime":2174.069,"endTime":2178.969,"body":"you might want to keep outside the team."},{"startTime":2179.119,"endTime":2183.149,"body":"For example, legal, there may not even"},{"startTime":2179.119,"endTime":2183.149,"body":"be a need to have legal on every team."},{"startTime":2183.349,"endTime":2187.609,"body":"Most companies, I'm like most startups,"},{"startTime":2183.349,"endTime":2187.609,"body":"like tiny startups, they get their legal."},{"startTime":2187.759,"endTime":2192.009,"body":"They get their HR, meaning actual"},{"startTime":2187.759,"endTime":2192.009,"body":"HR, not recruitment, not HR."},{"startTime":2192.279,"endTime":2194.249,"body":"They usually use staffing"},{"startTime":2192.279,"endTime":2194.249,"body":"firms for recruitment."},{"startTime":2194.299,"endTime":2196.299,"body":"Staffing firms, headhunters, that"},{"startTime":2194.299,"endTime":2196.299,"body":"kind of stuff for recruitment."},{"startTime":2196.619,"endTime":2200.039,"body":"So a lot of those functions really"},{"startTime":2196.619,"endTime":2200.039,"body":"are outside of the business."},{"startTime":2200.209,"endTime":2203.019,"body":"I'm not against taking those"},{"startTime":2200.209,"endTime":2203.019,"body":"things into the ivory tower."},{"startTime":2203.219,"endTime":2208.369,"body":"Any function I take into the ivory tower,"},{"startTime":2203.219,"endTime":2208.369,"body":"I want metrics gives you the performance"},{"startTime":2208.629,"endTime":2211.659,"body":"of those ivory tower derived services."},{"startTime":2211.809,"endTime":2212.589,"body":"This is the problem."},{"startTime":2212.739,"endTime":2215.439,"body":"any service that you claim is going"},{"startTime":2212.739,"endTime":2215.439,"body":"to be increasing the quality of life"},{"startTime":2215.449,"endTime":2219.049,"body":"by taking this away from the companies"},{"startTime":2215.449,"endTime":2219.049,"body":"and doing it as a service in the ivory"},{"startTime":2219.049,"endTime":2222.729,"body":"tower, then you need to declare a"},{"startTime":2219.049,"endTime":2222.729,"body":"service manager, like just like they"},{"startTime":2222.729,"endTime":2224.389,"body":"can play the role, be part time, right?"},{"startTime":2224.429,"endTime":2226.779,"body":"Yeah, we're very, it's a"},{"startTime":2224.429,"endTime":2226.779,"body":"very popular thing to have"},{"startTime":2226.779,"endTime":2227.719,"body":"someone play the role, right?"},{"startTime":2227.779,"endTime":2228.069,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2228.069,"endTime":2231.514,"body":"But you need some kind of"},{"startTime":2228.069,"endTime":2231.514,"body":"service manager to be part time."},{"startTime":2231.664,"endTime":2235.764,"body":"Looking at metrics of how happy people"},{"startTime":2231.664,"endTime":2235.764,"body":"are with that service, what the times"},{"startTime":2235.764,"endTime":2240.824,"body":"of delay are basically I constantly"},{"startTime":2235.764,"endTime":2240.824,"body":"want to know if we just broke up this"},{"startTime":2241.154,"endTime":2245.414,"body":"central service and gave it back to the"},{"startTime":2241.154,"endTime":2245.414,"body":"business units, would it be more costly?"},{"startTime":2245.564,"endTime":2248.704,"body":"To the business unit or cheaper"},{"startTime":2245.564,"endTime":2248.704,"body":"and whether they be happier or not"},{"startTime":2248.814,"endTime":2249.994,"body":"with it inside of their function."},{"startTime":2250.084,"endTime":2251.754,"body":"I constantly want to just"},{"startTime":2250.084,"endTime":2251.754,"body":"watch those two things."},{"startTime":2251.984,"endTime":2254.264,"body":"So I guess what I'm saying"},{"startTime":2251.984,"endTime":2254.264,"body":"is it's very contextual."},{"startTime":2254.334,"endTime":2255.364,"body":"I don't really have a good answer."},{"startTime":2255.514,"endTime":2259.774,"body":"My good answer is I would want to watch"},{"startTime":2255.514,"endTime":2259.774,"body":"those two measures and constantly be"},{"startTime":2259.774,"endTime":2262.344,"body":"adjusting and then make decisions quickly."},{"startTime":2262.344,"endTime":2266.874,"body":"If I find out that the majority of"},{"startTime":2262.344,"endTime":2266.874,"body":"businesses the majority of subsidiaries"},{"startTime":2267.024,"endTime":2271.044,"body":"when we pull them their teams that"},{"startTime":2267.024,"endTime":2271.044,"body":"hire people hate using our corporate"},{"startTime":2271.114,"endTime":2273.994,"body":"centralized recruiting because"},{"startTime":2271.114,"endTime":2273.994,"body":"it's and here's all the reasons"},{"startTime":2273.994,"endTime":2275.094,"body":"they put on the survey or whatever."},{"startTime":2275.094,"endTime":2275.654,"body":"It's slow."},{"startTime":2275.654,"endTime":2277.584,"body":"It's this, it's whatever,"},{"startTime":2275.654,"endTime":2277.584,"body":"they don't know my business."},{"startTime":2277.734,"endTime":2280.744,"body":"So I constantly would want to be"},{"startTime":2277.734,"endTime":2280.744,"body":"looking at that function is like"},{"startTime":2280.744,"endTime":2281.834,"body":"a service management function."},{"startTime":2282.104,"endTime":2285.374,"body":"And I feel this, the function of"},{"startTime":2282.104,"endTime":2285.374,"body":"service management is even less"},{"startTime":2285.374,"endTime":2288.344,"body":"well understood than agile coaching"},{"startTime":2285.374,"endTime":2288.344,"body":"and scrum masters and stuff."},{"startTime":2288.354,"endTime":2289.044,"body":"Well, we know this."},{"startTime":2289.044,"endTime":2289.984,"body":"We did a podcast."},{"startTime":2289.984,"endTime":2291.724,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2291.754,"endTime":2293.274,"body":"I'm starting to understand its importance."},{"startTime":2293.284,"endTime":2294.124,"body":"I really am."},{"startTime":2294.124,"endTime":2295.414,"body":"I'd like to have Brian back on."},{"startTime":2295.544,"endTime":2299.714,"body":"I can get him back because I'm really"},{"startTime":2295.544,"endTime":2299.714,"body":"coming into understanding of, you just"},{"startTime":2299.714,"endTime":2305.144,"body":"need someone, you Just saying someone"},{"startTime":2299.714,"endTime":2305.144,"body":"with a who can measure this is the quality"},{"startTime":2305.144,"endTime":2309.434,"body":"of service of this Line of service that"},{"startTime":2305.144,"endTime":2309.434,"body":"we're delivering and they need to raise"},{"startTime":2309.434,"endTime":2312.134,"body":"a flag when the flag needs to be raised"},{"startTime":2309.434,"endTime":2312.134,"body":"And I think that's someone's full time"},{"startTime":2312.284,"endTime":2315.144,"body":"potentially could be someone's full time"},{"startTime":2312.284,"endTime":2315.144,"body":"job depending on how big we are, right?"},{"startTime":2315.224,"endTime":2315.784,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2315.814,"endTime":2319.749,"body":"I mean when we're smaller And let's"},{"startTime":2315.814,"endTime":2319.749,"body":"say Brian and Om's holding company only"},{"startTime":2319.749,"endTime":2322.189,"body":"owns like two subsidiary businesses."},{"startTime":2322.509,"endTime":2325.009,"body":"Well then maybe we can do the"},{"startTime":2322.509,"endTime":2325.009,"body":"job of service management."},{"startTime":2325.009,"endTime":2325.549,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2325.559,"endTime":2325.869,"body":"You know."},{"startTime":2326.049,"endTime":2327.899,"body":"Yeah, and that's, that's"},{"startTime":2326.049,"endTime":2327.899,"body":"true, that's true."},{"startTime":2328.069,"endTime":2330.119,"body":"You know, one of the other"},{"startTime":2328.069,"endTime":2330.119,"body":"functions that I see people"},{"startTime":2330.119,"endTime":2331.209,"body":"Because what else are we doing?"},{"startTime":2331.339,"endTime":2331.939,"body":"Buying yachts?"},{"startTime":2331.969,"endTime":2332.599,"body":"What else are we doing?"},{"startTime":2332.709,"endTime":2334.069,"body":"Yeah, buying and selling yachts."},{"startTime":2334.069,"endTime":2335.589,"body":"That's a Separate company."},{"startTime":2335.739,"endTime":2339.059,"body":"So one of the other functions I've"},{"startTime":2335.739,"endTime":2339.059,"body":"seen being outsourced like this, just"},{"startTime":2339.069,"endTime":2342.509,"body":"from purely from a cost perspective"},{"startTime":2339.069,"endTime":2342.509,"body":"is accounting type functions like"},{"startTime":2342.659,"endTime":2344.429,"body":"doing payroll, for example, right?"},{"startTime":2344.499,"endTime":2344.709,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2344.859,"endTime":2347.029,"body":"There are companies that do"},{"startTime":2344.859,"endTime":2347.029,"body":"that for pennies on the dollar."},{"startTime":2347.029,"endTime":2349.469,"body":"If you were to get that in"},{"startTime":2347.029,"endTime":2349.469,"body":"house, it would cost you more."},{"startTime":2349.619,"endTime":2349.879,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2350.029,"endTime":2351.379,"body":"So then that makes sense."},{"startTime":2351.619,"endTime":2352.079,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2352.369,"endTime":2354.389,"body":"The teams don't need that on the team."},{"startTime":2354.539,"endTime":2355.259,"body":"And that makes sense."},{"startTime":2355.269,"endTime":2358.369,"body":"So we're not saying we're"},{"startTime":2355.269,"endTime":2358.369,"body":"eliminating the ivory tower."},{"startTime":2358.469,"endTime":2361.919,"body":"We're just simply saying it's more"},{"startTime":2358.469,"endTime":2361.919,"body":"like a small efficiency apartment"},{"startTime":2361.919,"endTime":2364.259,"body":"and not a huge multi layered castle."},{"startTime":2364.419,"endTime":2364.809,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2364.869,"endTime":2365.289,"body":"Not me."},{"startTime":2365.349,"endTime":2366.329,"body":"I'm for eliminating it."},{"startTime":2366.329,"endTime":2367.749,"body":"Like siege the Bastille!."},{"startTime":2367.769,"endTime":2368.419,"body":"Burn it down."},{"startTime":2368.569,"endTime":2369.059,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":2369.209,"endTime":2370.069,"body":"The people rest."},{"startTime":2370.219,"endTime":2371.169,"body":"The people rest."},{"startTime":2371.319,"endTime":2372.239,"body":"I think yeah."},{"startTime":2372.389,"endTime":2374.099,"body":"I hope you enjoyed this podcast, Om."},{"startTime":2374.366,"endTime":2377.399,"body":"I enjoyed this podcast throwing"},{"startTime":2374.366,"endTime":2377.399,"body":"stones at the ivory tower."},{"startTime":2377.399,"endTime":2379.929,"body":"I don't know if we made a"},{"startTime":2377.399,"endTime":2379.929,"body":"difference in the world here."},{"startTime":2380.079,"endTime":2381.199,"body":"Well the jury's still out."},{"startTime":2381.349,"endTime":2381.699,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2381.699,"endTime":2383.019,"body":"The jury is in deliberations."},{"startTime":2383.259,"endTime":2385.979,"body":"We'll let you know when they make"},{"startTime":2383.259,"endTime":2385.979,"body":"their, it might be a couple weeks."},{"startTime":2387.149,"endTime":2388.249,"body":"Yeah, we'll get back to you."},{"startTime":2388.399,"endTime":2391.379,"body":"All right, well thank you again"},{"startTime":2388.399,"endTime":2391.379,"body":"for staying with us this long."},{"startTime":2391.529,"endTime":2393.619,"body":"Let us know other topics"},{"startTime":2391.529,"endTime":2393.619,"body":"that you're interested in."},{"startTime":2393.769,"endTime":2394.219,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2394.369,"endTime":2395.209,"body":"Like and subscribe."},{"startTime":2395.479,"endTime":2396.909,"body":"And thank you for staying with us."}]}